From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Apr 1 00:17:59 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 22:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M 2.34? Message-ID: I haven't heard of CP/M version 2.34, but here I'm looking at a pair of 8-inch diskettes, an original and a copy, that supposedly contain it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Apr 1 05:12:57 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 06:12:57 -0400 Subject: CP/M 2.34? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51595DA9.60709@verizon.net> On 04/01/2013 01:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I haven't heard of CP/M version 2.34, but here I'm looking at a pair > of 8-inch diskettes, an original and a copy, that supposedly contain it. > No such animal in DRI parlance. It's likely V2 (2.1 or 2.1) with vendor specific BIOS patches. I have a disk marked V2.41, turns out its a 8' SSSD copy of V2 with a compupro disk and IO bios. It's CP/M 2. Allison From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 05:14:59 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 10:14:59 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=5b2=5d=3a=20World=e2=80=99s=20top=20supercomputer=20from=20=e2=80=9809=20is=20now=20obsolete=2c=20will=20be=20dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <5158D793.6020203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 01/04/2013 01:40:51 Subject: Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled >On 03/31/2013 08:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>>http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ >> >> Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? > > Remember, this is America. If it's old, it's bad, and if it's not >new, >it's old! > >> What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? > > Contracts, and suits. > I think more bean counters. You can get a newer faster box that uses much less power and so you actually can re-coup the investment in a few years. Looking at that link I see that box needs 2345Kw to do just over 1.0 Pet Flops. The UK's fastest computer, which is slightly faster at 1.2 Peta Flops only uses around 575kw so only 25% of the power... http://www.stfc.ac.uk/News+and+Events/39207.aspx http://www.top500.org/system/177723 http://www-01.ibm.com/software/success/cssdb.nsf/CS/STRD-8YREBG?OpenDocument&Site=default&cty=en_us http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Gene (More links to IBM research for those that get seriously excited by fast computers) >> Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with >>needs, and >> upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall >>machine? > I believe that the interconnect is the limiting factor.... > Of course. This is IBM. They can do damn near anything these days, if >technology is the only limiting factor. > >> Are there finite limits on how much space can be created under the >>Fort? >> >> What is it being replaced with? > > 13,158 iPads? > Na they have upgraded from PlayStation II to Playstation III chips.... > -Dave > -- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA Dave G4UGM From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 06:05:27 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 11:05:27 +0000 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: <1C39D62F-84E3-4CEC-B80F-40F61630AE09@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Huw Davies" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 01/04/2013 05:48:45 Subject: Re: An Acorn 4000 checks in > >On 01/04/2013, at 5:53 AM, Terry Stewart >wrote: > >> The latest addition to the collection >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/acorn-4000.htm > >I'm jealous - I had an earlier Archimedes on my desk at work for a >couple of weeks back when they were new but couldn't convince the >distributer to sell it at a reasonable price - in the end I got a Mac >Iicx running A/UX which cost five times as much but that's another >story. > >Must see if I can track something like this down to add to my >collection... > >Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au >Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the >Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" > The "RiscOS North West User Group" still meets in the UK http://www.ronwug.org/ForthcomingMeetings (I am not a member but the Radio Club I belong to uses the same building) Dave G4UGM > From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 1 08:19:05 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 06:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2013, Dave wrote: > >> On 01/04/2013, at 5:53 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: >> >>> The latest addition to the collection >>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/acorn-4000.htm >> >> I'm jealous - I had an earlier Archimedes on my desk at work for a couple >> of weeks back when they were new but couldn't convince the distributer to >> sell it at a reasonable price - in the end I got a Mac Iicx running A/UX >> which cost five times as much but that's another story. >> >> Must see if I can track something like this down to add to my collection... >> >> Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au >> Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the >> Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" >> > The "RiscOS North West User Group" still meets in the UK > > http://www.ronwug.org/ForthcomingMeetings > > (I am not a member but the Radio Club I belong to uses the same building) > Don't forget that you can run RiscOS on the Raspberry Pi now as well. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 1 08:58:36 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 09:58:36 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> On 03/31/2013 08:14 PM, geneb wrote: > 6030 days ain't too shabby. :) > > http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1199529 > > g. > Nice... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From earl at retrobits.com Mon Apr 1 11:30:08 2013 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 09:30:08 -0700 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > The latest addition to the collection > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/acorn-4000.htm > > Terry (Tez) > Fantastic! Such a historically important and interesting machine. Hope to see a video? :-) Nice acquisition, Tez. - Earl From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 14:56:49 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 14:56:49 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?V29ybGTigJlzIHRvcCBzdXBlcmNvbXB1dGVyIGZyb20g4oCYMDk=?= =?UTF-8?B?IGlzIG5vdyBvYnNvbGV0ZSwgd2lsbCBiZSBkaXNtYW50bGVk?= In-Reply-To: References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5159E681.6070906@gmail.com> On 03/31/2013 10:03 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > The newer systems are faster and consume a lot less power > and are therefore a lot cheaper to run. Pfft. Just hook a solar panel or two up to it. Or rather, lots. And only run it during the daytime, when it's a nice weather. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 1 18:02:54 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 16:02:54 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=9109_is?= =?windows-1252?Q?_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <5159E681.6070906@gmail.com> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <5159E681.6070906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <067F6802-0490-4D1B-8626-710FE87B9A50@shiresoft.com> On Apr 1, 2013, at 12:56 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 03/31/2013 10:03 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> The newer systems are faster and consume a lot less power >> and are therefore a lot cheaper to run. > > Pfft. Just hook a solar panel or two up to it. Or rather, lots. And only run it during the daytime, when it's a nice weather. It's in Los Alamos, so it's always sunny (ok 80% of the time). ;-) TTFN - Guy From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 1 19:03:29 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:03:29 +1300 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, video at some stage Earl. It will be a while though. I'm about 1/2 through going in roughly chronological order. Also other things are now competing for my time. Next up is the IBM XT, then the Epson, QX-10. Terry (Tez) On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 5:30 AM, Earl Evans wrote: > On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Terry Stewart >wrote: > > > The latest addition to the collection > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/acorn-4000.htm > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > > Fantastic! Such a historically important and interesting machine. Hope to > see a video? :-) > > Nice acquisition, Tez. > > - Earl > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 1 13:14:48 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:14:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: World^Òs top supercomputer from ^Ñ09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <5158DFA0.6070003@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 31, 13 09:15:12 pm Message-ID: > > On 03/31/2013 08:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Sun, 31 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> 13,158 iPads? > > That's less than one and a quarter kilometers! x 241.2mm x 185.7mm > > > > How much power would they draw? > > > http://gigaom.com/2012/06/21/so-how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ipad-every-year/ > > "The analysis shows that each model of the iPad consumes less than 12 kWh > of elelctricity over the course of a year, based on a full charge every other > day." > > ...A LOT. Assuming a year is 365 days, thats 8760 hours. And if 12kWh is the total energy consumed in those 8760 hours, it gives an average power consumption of about 1.37W. So your 13158 of them would have an average power consumption of about 18kW. Big, yes, but not ridiculous. But... I would gues that 12kWh figure is for the 'norma' use fo the Ipad, not usein the processor flat-out all the time. Against that, I guess some of the power goes to the RF communications stuff and even more to the display and backpligth, which wouldn't bee needed in this application. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 1 20:32:44 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 18:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?Re=3A_World^=D2s_top_supercomputer_from_^=D109_?= =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130401180515.O43038@shell.lmi.net> > > >> 13,158 iPads? > > > That's less than one and a quarter kilometers! x 241.2mm x 185.7mm > > > How much power would they draw? > > http://gigaom.com/2012/06/21/so-how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ipad-every-year/ > > "The analysis shows that each model of the iPad consumes less than 12 kWh > > of elelctricity over the course of a year, based on a full charge every other > > day." > > ...A LOT. On Mon, 1 Apr 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > Assuming a year is 365 days, thats 8760 hours. And if 12kWh is the total > energy consumed in those 8760 hours, it gives an average power > consumption of about 1.37W. So your 13158 of them would have an average > power consumption of about 18kW. Big, yes, but not ridiculous. It helps to look at the numbers. 1.37W ??!? REALLY??!? > But... I would gues that 12kWh figure is for the 'norma' use fo the Ipad, > not usein the processor flat-out all the time. Against that, I guess > some of the power goes to the RF communications stuff and even more to > the display and backpligth, which wouldn't bee needed in this application. AND that would require that it gets 48 hours of use from each charge! ("full charge every other day") So, it is presumably assuming a "reasonable" usage of prob'ly no more than 8 hours use per day. Does anybody know what the actual POWER CONSUMPTION of the device is, not "what will my electric bill be if I charge it every other day?" Can it RUN off of a wall-wart? Would that not be a little more efficient than running down the batteries and then recharging them? It might even be possible to design a more efficient multi-output power supply, rather than a few miles of outlet strips with wall-warts. However, if you were to run it off batteries, and charge them every other day, it could be PORTABLE! How big a truck? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dave13 at dunfield.com Mon Apr 1 21:39:01 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 21:39:01 -0500 Subject: Did Dave Dunfield's cp/m archive on classiccmp.org go boom ? Message-ID: <515A36B5.7681.339201D@dave13.dunfield.com> > >>> None of my links are working anymore. Just gives a 503 error. I > >>> need me some disk images. > >> Apparently no one has heard from Dave in a while. > > > > Oh man. Here we go again >MUCH more important, >Is Dave OK? Dave is alive and (mostly) well. Sorry Guys, I just don't have much time to participate in the list these days. I do browse through the threads every month or two using the web archive. I've not taken my site down - it is hosted on Classiccmp which does seem to be having a few problems as of late - today I am getting notices that "the site is unavailable due to maintenance or capacity" - I'm guessing the latter, because hit reload a couple of times and it will come up (I had the same issue reading the list). Regards, Dave -- dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From dgunix at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 01:39:02 2013 From: dgunix at gmail.com (Adam) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 09:39:02 +0300 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 4:58 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 03/31/2013 08:14 PM, geneb wrote: > >> 6030 days ain't too shabby. :) >> >> http://arstechnica.com/civis/**viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1199529 >> >> g. >> >> Nice... Indeed. 16.5 years is really something to aspire to. One of my oldest server is almost at 6 years - 10.5 years to go (!!) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 09:36:00 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 07:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle "obsolete" four year old systems? Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 2 09:42:37 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:42:37 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> On 04/02/2013 10:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle > "obsolete" four year old systems? > > Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current > models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. Smart people get the amazing uptime. Sheep, and people who work in companies whose purchasing agents who get kickbacks from salesmen...they don't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 10:04:41 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 15:04:41 +0000 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Has it had a kernel update ever? Uptime can often mean vulnerable services too. -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:42:37 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... On 04/02/2013 10:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle > "obsolete" four year old systems? > > Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current > models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. Smart people get the amazing uptime. Sheep, and people who work in companies whose purchasing agents who get kickbacks from salesmen...they don't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 10:09:46 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 08:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130402080451.T55035@shell.lmi.net> > > How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle > > "obsolete" four year old systems? > > Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current > > models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > Smart people get the amazing uptime. Sheep, and people who work in > companies whose purchasing agents who get kickbacks from salesmen...they > don't. How much trouble would we get into for hanging onto and using those 184 iPads, when the other 13,000 of the 13184 get crushed? I guess that I know the answer to that - they tried to fire Monte for dumpster diving, and before holding the hearing, they dumpstered his collection and cleared his office and store-roomS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 2 10:11:05 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 11:11:05 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> Theoretically, yes...but the kernel is a relatively small portion of the code, and individual services (and sometimes even device drivers, network stacks, etc) can be patched and/or replaced at will without rebooting on most systems. -Dave On 04/02/2013 11:04 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Has it had a kernel update ever? Uptime can often mean vulnerable services too. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:42:37 > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... > > On 04/02/2013 10:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle >> "obsolete" four year old systems? >> >> Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current >> models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. > > Smart people get the amazing uptime. Sheep, and people who work in > companies whose purchasing agents who get kickbacks from salesmen...they don't. > > -Dave > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 10:15:22 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 10:15:22 -0500 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious to see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, and was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the game that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder which came first, because the specifications for the two machines are virtually identical. On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an > interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. > http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I > > Terry (Tez) > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 10:30:40 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 08:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Sam O'nella wrote: > Has it had a kernel update ever? Uptime can often mean vulnerable > services too. It is possible to design a system that does not require rebooting when replacing a component that is not currently in use. If the interface of the component is adequately stabilized and documented, that "not in use" could even be an interrupt. Memory space garbage collection, when properly done, does NOT require rebooting. But systems that screw up on releasing allocated resources when they are no longer needed, NEED a complete restart periodically. Can the 13184 iPads be hot-swapped? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Apr 2 10:33:13 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:33:13 +0100 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Were I used to work we had a Novell 4.1 server that had been up for five plus years. I was the one who drew the short straw when in needed to be moved. Despite everyone's fears, it did come back up no problem. I miss Novell. On Apr 2, 2013 4:27 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > Theoretically, yes...but the kernel is a relatively small portion of the > code, and individual services (and sometimes even device drivers, network > stacks, etc) can be patched and/or replaced at will without rebooting on > most > systems. > > -Dave > > On 04/02/2013 11:04 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > > Has it had a kernel update ever? Uptime can often mean vulnerable > services too. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave McGuire > > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:42:37 > > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts< > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... > > > > On 04/02/2013 10:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle > >> "obsolete" four year old systems? > >> > >> Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current > >> models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. > > > > Smart people get the amazing uptime. Sheep, and people who work in > > companies whose purchasing agents who get kickbacks from salesmen...they > don't. > > > > -Dave > > > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 10:45:40 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:45:40 -0500 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: <51588F4A.1080603@neurotica.com> References: <5158888D.4020702@neurotica.com> <51588F4A.1080603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515AFD24.2020904@gmail.com> On 03/31/2013 02:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I love seeing and reading about these Acorn machines. I'm an embedded > systems developer; I work with ARM processors (mostly ARM7) every day and > really like them. It's cool to see and learn about their heritage. You might like this one - it's a first-generation ARM on an ISA card: http://www.patooie.com/temp/armappisa.jpg I think that the 40-pin IC in the lower-right is a standard Acorn Tube ULA, with a bit of glue logic to marry it up to the ISA bus - although it's a different animal to any of Acorn's other offerings of that era (e.g. it's not just the ARM eval kit circuit in an ISA form-factor). The firmware (I had the ROMs out for archiving when I took that photo) is dated June of '87, which is the same time that the Archimedes was released to the world; the board was most likely a way of attracting developers to the platform by making it easy to run ARM code on a PC. RAM is 4MB, I think, in 32 x 1Mbit parts. I do have an ARM Evaluation Kit too (the ARM co-processor for the BBC micro), along with another ARM-based ISA card (this time with a local I/O controller and expansion connector). cheers Jules From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Tue Apr 2 08:37:01 2013 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 00:37:01 +1100 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80710309-9E0D-4375-9AB2-D76222BF5238@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 02/04/2013, at 12:19 AM, geneb wrote: >> > Don't forget that you can run RiscOS on the Raspberry Pi now as well. On my list of things to do with my Pi. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 2 10:45:59 2013 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:45:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tuesday, 2 April 2013, 16:11 Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... ? Theoretically, yes...but the kernel is a relatively small portion of the code, and individual services (and sometimes even device drivers, network stacks, etc) can be patched and/or replaced at will without rebooting on most systems. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave On 04/02/2013 11:04 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Has it had a kernel update ever? Uptime can often mean vulnerable services too. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:42:37 > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >? > Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... > > On 04/02/2013 10:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle >> "obsolete" four year old systems? >> >> Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current >> models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. > >? Smart people get the amazing uptime.? Sheep, and people who work in > companies whose purchasing agents who get kickbacks from salesmen...they don't. > >? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 2 10:53:31 2013 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 11:53:31 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130402155331.GA22057@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle > "obsolete" four year old systems? > > Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current > models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. To get amazing uptimes, just ensure your servers are sealed behind drywall: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/04/12/missing_novell_server_discovered_after/ -spc (Best personal uptime for a server---336 days) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 11:10:42 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 16:10:42 +0000 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Sam O'nella" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 02/04/2013 16:04:41 Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... >Has it had a kernel update ever? Uptime can often mean vulnerable >services too. Its netware, it will stay up for ever. I have found "lost and forgotton" netware servers in all sorts of odd places. I do remember one server that was re-booted after a power outage and it failed to come back. They had run out of disk space so had deleted some "old files" that no one seemed to use. They were the drivers for the tape drive. Ho Hum.... Dave G4UGM >-----Original Message----- >From: Dave McGuire >Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:42:37 >To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... > >On 04/02/2013 10:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts >>dismantle >> "obsolete" four year old systems? >> >> Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current >> models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. > > Smart people get the amazing uptime. Sheep, and people who work in >companies whose purchasing agents who get kickbacks from >salesmen...they don't. > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA > From jon at jonworld.com Tue Apr 2 11:13:56 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 12:13:56 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:45 AM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial Solaris these days. What you can/can't run Solaris 10 on, Solaris 11 on, etc. But that's another thread all on its own. I'm an ex-HP/ArcSight guy who now does ArcSight consulting with a small firm, and we have a lot of great customers. That said, some of those customers are using older (3-5 years old) appliance hardware which was sold by ArcSight (pre-HP.) The hardware works fine and is sized appropriately for their needs, but HP won't support the latest software upgrades on it, and those software upgrades are required to avoid a nasty XSS bug. So I can't upgrade a keep a customer's system secure because they aren't running the most recent ($$$) hardware. It doesn't help that the original hardware ArcSight used for their appliances was Dell-based, and now being owned by HP it's kind of a black eye for HP to keep supporting Dell-based HW. Meanwhile I'm trying to be a good partner/VAR/trusted advisor to my customers, but the vendor has totally put the squeeze on me. Yes, you really don't need new hardware for your environment due to capacity issues, but you do if you want to ensure the product you use for security monitoring is secure, you need to fork out $50k+. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 11:16:09 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 12:16:09 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130402155331.GA22057@brevard.conman.org> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <20130402155331.GA22057@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <515B0449.4050005@gmail.com> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: >> How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle >> "obsolete" four year old systems? >> >> Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current >> models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. > > To get amazing uptimes, just ensure your servers are sealed behind > drywall: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/04/12/missing_novell_server_discovered_after/ I had something similar happen at IBM with a PS/2 Model 80. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 2 11:43:18 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 12:43:18 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> On 04/02/2013 12:13 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:45 AM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > >> Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? > > Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial Solaris these days. What you can/can't run Solaris 10 on, Solaris 11 on, etc. But that's another thread all on its own. > > I'm an ex-HP/ArcSight guy who now does ArcSight consulting with a small firm, and we have a lot of great customers. That said, some of those customers are using older (3-5 years old) appliance hardware which was sold by ArcSight (pre-HP.) The hardware works fine and is sized appropriately for their needs, but HP won't support the latest software upgrades on it, and those software upgrades are required to avoid a nasty XSS bug. So I can't upgrade a keep a customer's system secure because they aren't running the most recent ($$$) hardware. It doesn't help that the original hardware ArcSight used for their appliances was Dell-based, and now being owned by HP it's kind of a black eye for HP to keep supporting Dell-based HW. > > Meanwhile I'm trying to be a good partner/VAR/trusted advisor to my customers, but the vendor has totally put the squeeze on me. Yes, you really don't need new hardware for your environment due to capacity issues, but you do if you want to ensure the product you use for security monitoring is secure, you need to fork out $50k+. Damn suits. This is what happens when our society allows people who are better suited to being late-shift fast food restaurant managers, or perhaps just bank robbers, get into upper management. Of course it's more common than not. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 11:53:15 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 09:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130402095136.S56495@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > Damn suits. This is what happens when our society allows people who > are better suited to being late-shift fast food restaurant managers, or > perhaps just bank robbers, get into upper management. But, by putting them into upper management (and college administration), we've maintained a much better class of late-shift fast food restaurant managers and bank robbers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wgungfu at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 11:08:06 2013 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 11:08:06 -0500 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not sure what you mean, both Spectravideo and Yamaha released MSX machines in the US. They never caught on, so it wasn't for a significant amount of time. But they were here. On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious to > see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, and > was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the game > that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one > presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder which > came first, because the specifications for the two machines are virtually > identical. > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Terry Stewart >wrote: > > > An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an > > interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. > > http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > -- Marty From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 2 14:30:37 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 12:30:37 -0700 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515B31DD.1020509@sydex.com> On 04/02/2013 09:08 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Not sure what you mean, both Spectravideo and Yamaha released MSX machines > in the US. They never caught on, so it wasn't for a significant amount of > time. But they were here. It wasn't the first time a Japanese-origin idea didn't catch on. How about TRON? --Chuck From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 14:57:03 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 14:57:03 -0500 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If they did it must have been extremely limited distribution, I've never seen an MSX variant in a store or in the wild ever. On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Not sure what you mean, both Spectravideo and Yamaha released MSX machines > in the US. They never caught on, so it wasn't for a significant amount of > time. But they were here. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans >wrote: > > > Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious to > > see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, > and > > was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the > game > > that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one > > presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder which > > came first, because the specifications for the two machines are virtually > > identical. > > > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Terry Stewart > >wrote: > > > > > An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an > > > interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. > > > http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I > > > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > > > > > > > -- > Marty > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Apr 2 15:27:44 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 09:27:44 +1300 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I'm sure they were available in the U.S. Spectravideo was a U.S. company and the SV-318 was announced at the winter CES in Las Vagas. (see http://www.samdal.com/sv318.htm) Just not very visible maybe? Terry (Tez) On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:08 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Not sure what you mean, both Spectravideo and Yamaha released MSX machines > in the US. They never caught on, so it wasn't for a significant amount of > time. But they were here. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans >wrote: > > > Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious to > > see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, > and > > was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the > game > > that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one > > presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder which > > came first, because the specifications for the two machines are virtually > > identical. > > > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Terry Stewart > >wrote: > > > > > An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an > > > interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. > > > http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I > > > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > > > > > > > -- > Marty > From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 15:32:08 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 15:32:08 -0500 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah... I Googled quickly and saw they were a US based company... this was a bit of a surprise to me... for some reason I always figured they were a UK based outfit. In any case, yes, not very visible. I think I do recall seeing an advertisement or two for them in Creative Computing magazine but apart from that not much else. On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Yes, I'm sure they were available in the U.S. Spectravideo was a U.S. > company and the SV-318 was announced at the winter CES in Las Vagas. (see > http://www.samdal.com/sv318.htm) > > Just not very visible maybe? > > Terry (Tez) > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:08 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > > > Not sure what you mean, both Spectravideo and Yamaha released MSX > machines > > in the US. They never caught on, so it wasn't for a significant amount of > > time. But they were here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans > >wrote: > > > > > Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious > to > > > see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, > > and > > > was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the > > game > > > that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one > > > presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder > which > > > came first, because the specifications for the two machines are > virtually > > > identical. > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Terry Stewart < > terry at webweavers.co.nz > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an > > > > interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. > > > > http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I > > > > > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Marty > > > From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Apr 2 15:43:43 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:43:43 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> On 04/01/2013 02:33 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? > What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? > Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with needs, and > upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall machine? What would you replace? The CPU? Then you need a new socket and then you need a new motherboard. I suppose you could hold it against them that they didn't make the CPU's pin compatible, but that's only viable for a few years. The pin count changes as more and more features are moved onboard the CPU. And I suppose you could hold it against them that they didn't put the CPU on a daughterboard, but then the cost of manufacturing of the daughterboard would probably be close to a whole motherboard. Much easier to throw out and replace and let somebody else worry about assembly. Ram speeds go up, so you want to replace those when you get a new CPU as well. What is left? Power supplies and fans? yeah, those probably have a four more years in them. Probably would make sense to reuse. /P From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 16:31:39 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 14:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> > > Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? > > What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? > > Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with needs, and > > upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall machine? On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Pontus wrote: > What would you replace? The CPU? Then you need a new socket and then you > need a new motherboard. I suppose you could hold it against them that > they didn't make the CPU's pin compatible, but that's only viable for a > few years. The pin count changes as more and more features are moved > onboard the CPU. And I suppose you could hold it against them that they > didn't put the CPU on a daughterboard, but then the cost of > manufacturing of the daughterboard would probably be close to a whole > motherboard. Much easier to throw out and replace and let somebody else > worry about assembly. > Ram speeds go up, so you want to replace those when you get a new CPU as > well. > What is left? Power supplies and fans? yeah, those probably have a four > more years in them. Probably would make sense to reuse. I'm having a little difficulty visualizing "The World's Top Supercomputer" as being a single chip CPU on a motherboard. When did "supercomputers" become single board devices? "Put the CPU on a daughterboard"? I'm kinda stuck thinking in terms of adding another rack that supplants PART of the CPU functions with faster, and relegating the rack(s) that it replaced to anciliary functions. I never realized that inside one of those racks there was a CPU chip plugged into a socket. From sales at elecplus.com Tue Apr 2 16:43:20 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:43:20 -0500 Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?RE:_World's_top_supercomputer_from_'09_is_now_obsolete=2C_wi?= =?us-ascii?Q?ll_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <06f701ce2feb$17ef1e90$47cd5bb0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 4:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: World's top supercomputer from '09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled You guys are making me wish I had hung onto the old Cray supercomputers that we had abt 15 years ago. Sold the hard drives, and scrapped the rest. The IBM Big Blue cabinets, we shipped via common carrier, and some idiot ran his forklift through the cabinets! The DEC refrigerator-sized cabinets, we pulled the drives and boards, scrapped the rest. If I had only known then what I know now.... ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6218 - Release Date: 04/01/13 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 16:55:27 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 16:55:27 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?V29ybGTigJlzIHRvcCBzdXBlcmNvbXB1dGVyIGZyb20g4oCYMDk=?= =?UTF-8?B?IGlzIG5vdyBvYnNvbGV0ZSwgd2lsbCBiZSBkaXNtYW50bGVk?= In-Reply-To: <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515B53CF.2080208@gmail.com> On 04/02/2013 04:31 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? >>> What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? >>> Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with needs, and >>> upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall machine? > On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Pontus wrote: >> What would you replace? The CPU? Then you need a new socket and then you >> need a new motherboard. I suppose you could hold it against them that >> they didn't make the CPU's pin compatible, but that's only viable for a >> few years. The pin count changes as more and more features are moved >> onboard the CPU. And I suppose you could hold it against them that they >> didn't put the CPU on a daughterboard, but then the cost of >> manufacturing of the daughterboard would probably be close to a whole >> motherboard. Much easier to throw out and replace and let somebody else >> worry about assembly. >> Ram speeds go up, so you want to replace those when you get a new CPU as >> well. >> What is left? Power supplies and fans? yeah, those probably have a four >> more years in them. Probably would make sense to reuse. > > I'm having a little difficulty visualizing "The World's Top Supercomputer" > as being a single chip CPU on a motherboard. > > When did "supercomputers" become single board devices? > "Put the CPU on a daughterboard"? > > I'm kinda stuck thinking in terms of adding another rack that > supplants PART of the CPU functions with faster, and relegating > the rack(s) that it replaced to anciliary functions. > > I never realized that inside one of those racks there was a > CPU chip plugged into a socket. I expect it's lots of CPUs per board, probably soldered direct to the PCB, and then lots of boards per rack, with custom interconnects between boards and racks. To a point you may be able to add racks and boards, but once the individual CPUs (or the memory, or the interconnects) are deemed to be too slow then it's game over. As Paul says, it may be possible to keep the power supplies (and the empty racks) but that's such a small part of the whole - and the topology might not even be suited to whatever comes next anyway - that there's little point. I suppose the sheer logistics of moving something like this as a going concern - particularly if the space is needed for a replacement - are what prevents the whole lot being sold on to some other entity (i.e. just because it's not fast enough for you doesn't mean that it's useless to someone else) cheers Jules From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 17:34:01 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 15:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFdvcmxk4oCZcyB0b3Agc3VwZXJjb21wdXRlciBmcm9tIOKAmDA5IGlz?= =?utf-8?B?IG5vdyBvYnNvbGV0ZSwgd2lsbCBiZSBkaXNtYW50bGVk?= In-Reply-To: <515B53CF.2080208@gmail.com> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <515B53CF.2080208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1364942041.20590.YahooMailNeo@web141401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >>> Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? >>> What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? >>> Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with needs, and >>> upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall machine? ?As time goes on the density of the processors goes up but its not just the CPU's. Its what goes on behind the processors such as SGI's MIPS supercomputers of a few years ago. They used a distributed shared memory that required circuitry that connected processors, local memory, a network interface, and the I/O. These systems can be difficult to add onto brick wise and the only way to increase speed is to add racks which adds power consumption. Some of the technologies like Infiniband does have an upgrade path where older network technologies like HIPPI were not. Some of the Crays are field upgradable to new processor blades. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehCgG9yZQmg From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 20:03:09 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 21:03:09 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=9109_is_now_ob?= =?windows-1252?Q?solete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <1364942041.20590.YahooMailNeo@web141401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <515B53CF.2080208@gmail.com> <1364942041.20590.YahooMailNeo@web141401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Brian Roth wrote: > > As time goes on the density of the processors goes up but its not just > the CPU's. Its what goes on behind the processors such as SGI's MIPS > supercomputers of a few years ago. They used a distributed shared memory > that required circuitry that connected processors, local memory, a network > interface, and the > I/O. These systems can be difficult to add onto brick wise and the only > way to increase speed is to add racks which adds power consumption. > The other problem with Roadrunner was it was a hybrid design - AMD Opterons combined with cell processors, like the one in the Playstation 3. At the time these were screaming fast, but difficult to program. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Apr 2 20:15:27 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 20:15:27 -0500 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515B82AF.70102@brutman.com> On 3/31/2013 7:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ > > Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? > What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? Nothing really. People learn. Four years is a long time at the high end of computer science. I worked on the first BlueGene (BlueGene/L) to make the list. Not too long after that machine fell off the list RoadRunner made the top of the list. (I had a lot of friends who worked on RoadRunner. Both were IBM machines.) BlueGene/L was quite a bit different than the NEC machine that held the top slot before it. There were 64K "compute nodes" and something on the order of 1K "I/O" nodes. Both variants used an embedded style PowerPC system on a chip, but they were wired a little differently. Besides the massive number of processors there was a lot of thought put into the communications between processors ("tree" and "torus") to make it suitable for parallel workloads that still required some coordination. RoadRunner was a much different beast. It was essentially IBM QS22 Blades (Cell processor with enhanced double precision support compared to the variant used in the Sony PS3) and another blade (AMD x86 I think). Two QS22s and the other blade were packaged together in what we called a "tri-blade", which served as the basic building block. The x86 blade handled I/O and management and left the CPU intensive work to the QS22s. It's really easy to throw rocks a something you don't understand. Some light reading on Wikipedia would have shown you how much different the different #1 machines are from each other. Wait until we see the "exascale" style machines ... From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 20:15:43 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 21:15:43 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=9109_is?= =?windows-1252?Q?_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <515B53CF.2080208@gmail.com> <1364942041.20590.YahooMailNeo@web141401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <64C5B0A6-3A71-4C1D-92CB-751ED456B873@gmail.com> On Apr 2, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Brian Roth wrote: > >> >> As time goes on the density of the processors goes up but its not just >> the CPU's. Its what goes on behind the processors such as SGI's MIPS >> supercomputers of a few years ago. They used a distributed shared memory >> that required circuitry that connected processors, local memory, a network >> interface, and the >> I/O. These systems can be difficult to add onto brick wise and the only >> way to increase speed is to add racks which adds power consumption. >> > > The other problem with Roadrunner was it was a hybrid design - AMD Opterons > combined with cell processors, like the one in the Playstation 3. At the > time these were screaming fast, but difficult to program. They're about as difficult to program as any other supercomputer processor. The whole point of the original Cray architecture (and other Cray-designed CDC supercomputers, IIRC) was that there were I/O processors performing the data transfers to provide the CPU(s) enough data to chew on at full throttle. Anything less, and you were wasting processor power. The Cell's ring data structure wasn't all that different. Which, I guess, is not to say that they weren't difficult to program, but that supercomputer programmers probably should have felt right at home. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 2 20:57:41 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 21:57:41 -0400 Subject: Planned obsolescence, and other crimes - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <515B8C95.9050406@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/04/13 12:13 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:45 AM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > >> Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? > > Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial > Solaris these days. What you can/can't run Solaris 10 on, Solaris 11 > on, etc. But that's another thread all on its own. > > I'm an ex-HP/ArcSight guy who now does ArcSight consulting with a > small firm, and we have a lot of great customers. That said, some of > those customers are using older (3-5 years old) appliance hardware > which was sold by ArcSight (pre-HP.) The hardware works fine and is > sized appropriately for their needs, but HP won't support the latest > software upgrades on it, and those software upgrades are required to > avoid a nasty XSS bug. So I can't upgrade a keep a customer's system > secure because they aren't running the most recent ($$$) hardware. It That kind of tying hardware upgrade to a purely arbitrary software decision should be illegal, period. That it is not, is a sign of how far things are out of whack. Waste might have been acceptable for a few recent decades, but it won't always be acceptable, or even possible. --Toby > doesn't help that the original hardware ArcSight used for their > appliances was Dell-based,... From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 2 20:59:35 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 21:59:35 -0400 Subject: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/04/13 12:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/02/2013 12:13 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:45 AM, R SMALLWOOD >> wrote: >> >>> Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? >> >> Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial Solaris >> these days. ... Yes, you >> really don't need new hardware for your environment due to capacity >> issues, but you do if you want to ensure the product you use for >> security monitoring is secure, you need to fork out $50k+. > > Damn suits. This is what happens when our society allows people who are > better suited to being late-shift fast food restaurant managers, or > perhaps just bank robbers, get into upper management. This should offend any engineer, who if she is any good, is well trained in parsimony of solutions. --Toby > > Of course it's more common than not. > > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 2 21:12:04 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:12:04 -0400 Subject: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> On 04/02/2013 09:59 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? >>> >>> Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial Solaris >>> these days. ... Yes, you >>> really don't need new hardware for your environment due to capacity >>> issues, but you do if you want to ensure the product you use for >>> security monitoring is secure, you need to fork out $50k+. >> >> Damn suits. This is what happens when our society allows people who are >> better suited to being late-shift fast food restaurant managers, or >> perhaps just bank robbers, get into upper management. > > This should offend any engineer, who if she is any good, is well trained in > parsimony of solutions. Yes. I had an argument a few days ago with an "engineer" (who is a salesman who apparently USED to be an engineer) who loves the fact that people send huge HTML-laden emails around, because he SELLS STORAGE SYSTEMS. I thought I'd vomit. But I flamed him to the waterline instead. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Apr 2 21:50:15 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 19:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/02/2013 09:59 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? >>>> >>>> Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial Solaris >>>> these days. ... Yes, you >>>> really don't need new hardware for your environment due to capacity >>>> issues, but you do if you want to ensure the product you use for >>>> security monitoring is secure, you need to fork out $50k+. >>> >>> Damn suits. This is what happens when our society allows people who are >>> better suited to being late-shift fast food restaurant managers, or >>> perhaps just bank robbers, get into upper management. >> >> This should offend any engineer, who if she is any good, is well trained in >> parsimony of solutions. > > Yes. I had an argument a few days ago with an "engineer" (who is a > salesman who apparently USED to be an engineer) who loves the fact that > people send huge HTML-laden emails around, because he SELLS STORAGE SYSTEMS. > > I thought I'd vomit. But I flamed him to the waterline instead. It's times like that I think it would be a really handy ability to vomit on demand. "You make me sick! See!" -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 22:39:45 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 23:39:45 -0400 Subject: SDSL modem, free for the taking Message-ID: <8F76EB40-752C-4E13-8B11-46830B563517@gmail.com> This isn't *exactly* vintage, but I suppose it dates back about... 10-15 years? Anyway, I have a SpeedStream 5250 SDSL modem that was pretty much never used because my parents' house was too far away from the CO to successfully sync. Does anyone want it? If it's not claimed in a week, I'm tempted to recycle it, but those are always words we seem to regret in another 10-15 years. SDSL is/was an interesting technology, but I don't imagine it's making a resurgence any time soon. I'll make the offer on vintage-computer.org as well, which may be a better venue given the amount of folks there who actually seem to want PC-era garbage (not to ding the forum, because it's great, but it's genuinely amazing what some people there will actually take). Free for postage from Philadelphia, PA 19146 (USA). - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 2 22:48:36 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 23:48:36 -0400 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515BA694.2060808@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/04/13 10:50 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> ... I had an argument a few days ago with an "engineer" (who is a >> salesman who apparently USED to be an engineer) who loves the fact that >> people send huge HTML-laden emails around, because he SELLS STORAGE >> SYSTEMS. >> >> I thought I'd vomit. But I flamed him to the waterline instead. > > It's times like that I think it would be a really handy ability to vomit > on demand. "You make me sick! See!" > Pretty sure there are substances that can make this happen. Just need to keep a capsule in your pocket. --Toby From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 2 23:53:55 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 00:53:55 -0400 Subject: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515BB5E3.4020601@neurotica.com> On 04/02/2013 10:50 PM, David Griffith wrote: >>>>>> Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? >>>>> >>>>> Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial Solaris >>>>> these days. ... Yes, you >>>>> really don't need new hardware for your environment due to capacity >>>>> issues, but you do if you want to ensure the product you use for >>>>> security monitoring is secure, you need to fork out $50k+. >>>> >>>> Damn suits. This is what happens when our society allows people who are >>>> better suited to being late-shift fast food restaurant managers, or >>>> perhaps just bank robbers, get into upper management. >>> >>> This should offend any engineer, who if she is any good, is well trained in >>> parsimony of solutions. >> >> Yes. I had an argument a few days ago with an "engineer" (who is a >> salesman who apparently USED to be an engineer) who loves the fact that >> people send huge HTML-laden emails around, because he SELLS STORAGE SYSTEMS. >> >> I thought I'd vomit. But I flamed him to the waterline instead. > > It's times like that I think it would be a really handy ability to vomit on > demand. "You make me sick! See!" Yes! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Apr 2 23:55:04 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 21:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515BA694.2060808@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> <515BA694.2060808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Toby Thain wrote: > On 02/04/13 10:50 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> ... I had an argument a few days ago with an "engineer" (who is a >>> salesman who apparently USED to be an engineer) who loves the fact that >>> people send huge HTML-laden emails around, because he SELLS STORAGE >>> SYSTEMS. >>> >>> I thought I'd vomit. But I flamed him to the waterline instead. >> >> It's times like that I think it would be a really handy ability to vomit >> on demand. "You make me sick! See!" > > Pretty sure there are substances that can make this happen. Just need to > keep a capsule in your pocket. I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant reaction that is required for this application. A former coworker of mine had such a reaction to liquid Pepto-Bismol. For some reason, someone kept a bottle of the stuff in the IT office fridge. One day he complained about something that would be ordinarily treated with Pepto-Bismol. Someone offered him the bottle. He politely declined and told us of his unique reaction: swallow a tiny bit -- instant barf-o-matic. Oddly, he could take the chewables just fine. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 00:08:01 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 01:08:01 -0400 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> <515BA694.2060808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant reaction that is > required for this application. Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you can get. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 3 00:08:41 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 01:08:41 -0400 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: <515AFD24.2020904@gmail.com> References: <5158888D.4020702@neurotica.com> <51588F4A.1080603@neurotica.com> <515AFD24.2020904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515BB959.2060004@neurotica.com> On 04/02/2013 11:45 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I love seeing and reading about these Acorn machines. I'm an embedded >> systems developer; I work with ARM processors (mostly ARM7) every day and >> really like them. It's cool to see and learn about their heritage. > > You might like this one - it's a first-generation ARM on an ISA card: > > http://www.patooie.com/temp/armappisa.jpg Oh my now that is awesome, isn't it. Great stuff! > I think that the 40-pin IC in the lower-right is a standard Acorn Tube ULA, > with a bit of glue logic to marry it up to the ISA bus - although it's a > different animal to any of Acorn's other offerings of that era (e.g. it's not > just the ARM eval kit circuit in an ISA form-factor). > > The firmware (I had the ROMs out for archiving when I took that photo) is > dated June of '87, which is the same time that the Archimedes was released to > the world; the board was most likely a way of attracting developers to the > platform by making it easy to run ARM code on a PC. > > RAM is 4MB, I think, in 32 x 1Mbit parts. > > I do have an ARM Evaluation Kit too (the ARM co-processor for the BBC micro), > along with another ARM-based ISA card (this time with a local I/O controller > and expansion connector). Great stuff! Let me know if you ever want to part with anything early-ARM. (I sure wouldn't if I were you, but I had to suggest it!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Apr 3 01:15:05 2013 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:15:05 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?World=E2=80=99s_top_supercom?= =?utf-8?Q?puter_from_=E2=80=9809?= is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Apr 02, 2013 at 02:31:39PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I'm having a little difficulty visualizing "The World's Top Supercomputer" > as being a single chip CPU on a motherboard. > > When did "supercomputers" become single board devices? > "Put the CPU on a daughterboard"? Do you really think I'm that stupid? I've poked my head into plenty of supercomputers, in fact I have the very rack of a top500 list entry in my garage. I'm not even going to reply to that... > I'm kinda stuck thinking in terms of adding another rack that > supplants PART of the CPU functions with faster, and relegating > the rack(s) that it replaced to anciliary functions. What anciliary functions? http servers? storage? The performance per watt is way of for that kind of application. Hopefully, the machines won't hit the recyclers but end up in hands of students, less fortunate and hobbyists. > I never realized that inside one of those racks there was a > CPU chip plugged into a socket. Again? This is close to insulting. Regards, Pontus. From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Apr 3 01:38:10 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:38:10 +0200 Subject: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20130403083810.nmm7q9xb08j4owwc@webmail.opentransfer.com> Quoting Pontus Pihlgren : > On Tue, Apr 02, 2013 at 02:31:39PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: >> When did "supercomputers" become single board devices? >> "Put the CPU on a daughterboard"? > > Do you really think I'm that stupid? I've poked my head into plenty of > supercomputers, in fact I have the very rack of a top500 list entry in > my garage. Just for entertainment. That's exactly how Intel introduced the i860 back then. "cray on a chip" if I remember correctly ;-) From starbase89 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 01:44:58 2013 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 02:44:58 -0400 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> <515BA694.2060808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Finger down your throat seems to work well for the fashion industry On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:08 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > > I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant reaction that > is > > required for this application. > > Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you can get. > > -- > Will > -- Joseph Giliberti InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 3 04:08:01 2013 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 10:08:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Its funny you should mention Solaris. In addition to my main DEC collection I have a few Sun systems including a nice E3000 server. I have a kosher original SUN copy of? Solaris 9 . You can get Solaris 10 but its on DVD iso images and the E3000 only has a CD and I would need? a SCSI DVD to load it.? ? Oracle have now made Oracle Linux (PC version) downloadable for free. I did it and it works just fine. ? There's a promise of Oracle Linux for Sparc and that would really bring the SUN systems to life. ________________________________ From: Jonathan Katz To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tuesday, 2 April 2013, 17:13 Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:45 AM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial Solaris these days. What you can/can't run Solaris 10 on, Solaris 11 on, etc. But that's another thread all on its own. I'm an ex-HP/ArcSight guy who now does ArcSight consulting with a small firm, and we have a lot of great customers. That said, some of those customers are using older (3-5 years old) appliance hardware which was sold by ArcSight (pre-HP.) The hardware works fine and is sized appropriately for their needs, but HP won't support the latest software upgrades on it, and those software upgrades are required to avoid a nasty XSS bug. So I can't upgrade a keep a customer's system secure because they aren't running the most recent ($$$) hardware. It doesn't help that the original hardware ArcSight used for their appliances was Dell-based, and now being owned by HP it's kind of a black eye for HP to keep supporting Dell-based HW. Meanwhile I'm trying to be a good partner/VAR/trusted advisor to my customers, but the vendor has totally put the squeeze on me. Yes, you really don't need new hardware for your environment due to capacity issues, but you do if you want to ensure the product you use for security monitoring is secure, you need to fork out $50k+. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 3 07:36:41 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 05:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, David Griffith wrote: >> SYSTEMS. >> >> I thought I'd vomit. But I flamed him to the waterline instead. > > It's times like that I think it would be a really handy ability to vomit on > demand. "You make me sick! See!" Bah. Why go to that level of discomfort on yourself? A little spritz of Ipecac would really improve the flavor of his/her coffee... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 09:03:16 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:03:16 +0100 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 3 April 2013 10:08, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > Its funny you should mention Solaris. In addition to my main DEC collection I have a few Sun systems including a nice E3000 server. > I have a kosher original SUN copy of Solaris 9 . > You can get Solaris 10 but its on DVD iso images and the E3000 only has a CD and I would need a SCSI DVD to load it. Could you not install it over the network? That's how I got Red Hat 4.2 onto my SPARCstation IPX back in the 1990s. > Oracle have now made Oracle Linux (PC version) downloadable for free. > I did it and it works just fine. > > There's a promise of Oracle Linux for Sparc and that would really bring the SUN systems to life. Oracle Linux is basically CentOS with the name changed. CentOS is Reh Hat Enterprise Linux recompiled from the sources that RH publish. Scientific Linux is the same. Oracle Linux is primarily an effort by Oracle to stab Red Hat in the back. Hidebound corporates who would not touch a Free OS such as CentOS are reassured by the Oracle name and the support contracts. So if either CentOS or Scientific Linux are available on SPARC, just use them. No point waiting for Oracle & no reason to use Oracle's version. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 10:30:51 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:30:51 +0000 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <603356570-1365003049-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405139009-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Last time our company was looking at a requirement to use oracle with some other tools we looked at oracle linux and yes its just redhat certified to work with oracle. The funny part was it was slightly cheaper than redhat for its licensing so we were going to go with OEL just for that however we luckily ended up not needing that product afterall. There was also another redhat knockoff called white box linux which was the similar goal as centos (strip out corporate packages and get it back to opensource). Yet another dead distro that for a while was looking good. -----Original Message----- From: Liam Proven Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:03:16 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... On 3 April 2013 10:08, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > Its funny you should mention Solaris. In addition to my main DEC collection I have a few Sun systems including a nice E3000 server. > I have a kosher original SUN copy of Solaris 9 . > You can get Solaris 10 but its on DVD iso images and the E3000 only has a CD and I would need a SCSI DVD to load it. Could you not install it over the network? That's how I got Red Hat 4.2 onto my SPARCstation IPX back in the 1990s. > Oracle have now made Oracle Linux (PC version) downloadable for free. > I did it and it works just fine. > > There's a promise of Oracle Linux for Sparc and that would really bring the SUN systems to life. Oracle Linux is basically CentOS with the name changed. CentOS is Reh Hat Enterprise Linux recompiled from the sources that RH publish. Scientific Linux is the same. Oracle Linux is primarily an effort by Oracle to stab Red Hat in the back. Hidebound corporates who would not touch a Free OS such as CentOS are reassured by the Oracle name and the support contracts. So if either CentOS or Scientific Linux are available on SPARC, just use them. No point waiting for Oracle & no reason to use Oracle's version. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 3 11:41:14 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 09:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?Q?World=E2=80=99s_top_supercom?= =?utf-8?Q?puter_from_=E2=80=9809?= is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20130403092338.X73571@shell.lmi.net> > On Tue, Apr 02, 2013 at 02:31:39PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I'm having a little difficulty visualizing "The World's Top Supercomputer" > > as being a single chip CPU on a motherboard. > > When did "supercomputers" become single board devices? > > "Put the CPU on a daughterboard"? On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Do you really think I'm that stupid? Of course not. I acknowledge and respect your expertise. And, I certainly had no intention of offending you. > I've poked my head into plenty of > supercomputers, in fact I have the very rack of a top500 list entry in > my garage. > I'm not even going to reply to that... That's why I was so incredulous and taken aback by your OFF THE WALL statements! (YOU were the one who made those statatements - full post below) I even speculated that my whole perception of such machines was wrong and that things had gone through extraordinary changes that I was unaware of! > > I'm kinda stuck thinking in terms of adding another rack that > > supplants PART of the CPU functions with faster, and relegating > > the rack(s) that it replaced to anciliary functions. > What anciliary functions? http servers? storage? The performance per > watt is way of[f] for that kind of application. Thank you > Hopefully, the machines won't hit the recyclers but end up in hands of > students, less fortunate and hobbyists. Let's hope so, but I am cynical about the prospects. > > I never realized that inside one of those racks there was a > > CPU chip plugged into a socket. > Again? This is close to insulting. Then WHY DID YOU SAY IT? Those are YOUR statements that you are being offended by! If you had meant them metaphorically, then I'm sorry, but I missed that, and humbly request that in the future, for the sake of those of us less enlightened, that you pepper your metaphors with phrases such as "It is as if", "Similarly to", "by analogy". If you were joking, or being sarcastic, that also did not come across. You COULD HAVE said, "Designing upgradeability imposes some constraints on performance. In "extreme performance", there is a greater need for custom components obviating any possibility of modularity. It is not like an S100 backplane, where components can be interchangeable and upgradeable. Thus, those constraints would be intolerable." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Here is the full post that referred to supercomputer CPUs in sockets and daughterboards: ---------------------------- Start --------------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:43:43 +0200 From: Pontus Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: [windows-1252] World^Rs top supercomputer from ^Q[windows-1252] 09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled [ The following text is in the "windows-1252" character set. ] [ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ] [ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ] On 04/01/2013 02:33 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? > What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? > Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with needs, and > upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall machine? What would you replace? The CPU? Then you need a new socket and then you need a new motherboard. I suppose you could hold it against them that they didn't make the CPU's pin compatible, but that's only viable for a few years. The pin count changes as more and more features are moved onboard the CPU. And I suppose you could hold it against them that they didn't put the CPU on a daughterboard, but then the cost of manufacturing of the daughterboard would probably be close to a whole motherboard. Much easier to throw out and replace and let somebody else worry about assembly. Ram speeds go up, so you want to replace those when you get a new CPU as well. What is left? Power supplies and fans? yeah, those probably have a four more years in them. Probably would make sense to reuse. /P ----------------------- End ---------------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 11:52:39 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:52:39 +0100 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <603356570-1365003049-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405139009-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <603356570-1365003049-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405139009-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On 3 April 2013 16:30, Sam O'nella wrote: > > Last time our company was looking at a requirement to use oracle with some other tools we looked at oracle linux and yes its just redhat certified to work with oracle. The funny part was it was slightly cheaper than redhat for its licensing so we were going to go with OEL just for that however we luckily ended up not needing that product afterall. > > There was also another redhat knockoff called white box linux which was the similar goal as centos (strip out corporate packages and get it back to opensource). Yet another dead distro that for a while was looking good. Indeed. yes, White Box Linux was another version, but there are still two FOSS rebuilds of RHEL so we're not doing too badly. Also, may I suggest that you stick to plain-text emails and bottom-quote on the list, please? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 3 12:29:27 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 13:29:27 -0400 Subject: Solaris, was Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <515C66F7.5080901@neurotica.com> On 04/03/2013 05:08 AM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > Its funny you should mention Solaris. In addition to my main DEC > collection I have a few Sun systems including a nice E3000 server. I have > a kosher original SUN copy of Solaris 9 . You can get Solaris 10 but its > on DVD iso images and the E3000 only has a CD and I would need a SCSI DVD > to load it. This is OH so very off-topic. You can do a "Jumpstart" install (a very highly-automated form of network installation )if you have another running Solaris system. If you're unfamiliar with that and want to do it, contact me privately, I can help. > Oracle have now made Oracle Linux (PC version) downloadable for free. I > did it and it works just fine. Yuck. I mean, I'm sure it runs great, but it's like Linux of a decade ago. > There's a promise of Oracle Linux for Sparc and that would really bring > the SUN systems to life. But Linux is nowhere near able to take advantage of the architectural strengths of that system. I'm not knocking it; my main desktop system was a 4/610MP (Sun never sold that config, but if they did, that would've been the model number) running Linux, about fifteen years ago. It was great. But Solaris wasn't mature enough to run (for real) at that time...Nowadays, it will really put that hardware (even though the E3K is a bit older) through its paces very, very well. Further, you can run OpenSXCE on there, and see what ultra-modern Solaris can do. That would be neat to try. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jon at jonworld.com Wed Apr 3 13:08:22 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:08:22 -0400 Subject: Solaris, was Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515C66F7.5080901@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515C66F7.5080901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Apr 3, 2013, at 1:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > You can do a "Jumpstart" install (a very highly-automated form of network > installation )if you have another running Solaris system. If you're > unfamiliar with that and want to do it, contact me privately, I can help. You can actually jumpstart from an OSX system and a Linux box. There are various tutorials on this. And now Sun gear is becoming vintage hardware (gasp) and Solaris and SunOS Vintage OSes. So it is OT :D I find it hard to believe the E3000 in my basement could be considered vintage. It is circa 1996 so it's 17 years old :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 3 13:19:11 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 14:19:11 -0400 Subject: Solaris, was Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515C66F7.5080901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515C729F.7080206@neurotica.com> On 04/03/2013 02:08 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> You can do a "Jumpstart" install (a very highly-automated form of >> network installation )if you have another running Solaris system. >> If you're unfamiliar with that and want to do it, contact me >> privately, I can help. > > You can actually jumpstart from an OSX system and a Linux box. There > are various tutorials on this. Oh that's neat, I didn't know that! > And now Sun gear is becoming vintage hardware (gasp) and Solaris and > SunOS Vintage OSes. No more so than "all Fords are antiques, because there are antique Fords". Brand new SPARC-based Suns (regardless of the company name on the sticker) were introduced within the past few weeks, the UltraSPARC-T5 is pretty damn impresssive. And Solaris...well, there was a new Solaris release not too long before that. Unless you just meant "really old Suns" or "really old releases of Solaris", of course. > So it is OT :D I find it hard to believe the > E3000 in my basement could be considered vintage. It is circa 1996 so > it's 17 years old :) There's more to "vintage" than just "being old". "We know it when we see it". While I love E3Ks and consider them to be cool, I'd (personally) never consider them to be "vintage". IMO. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 3 13:27:53 2013 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:27:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Solaris, was Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515C66F7.5080901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1365013673.50799.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> I don't draw any distinction related to age. I have everything from a 1972 PDP 8/e to much more recent systems. My interest is to get?redundant systems?running and keep them running. ? Some I worked with when they were current and some are just plain interesting. ? ? ________________________________ From: Jonathan Katz To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wednesday, 3 April 2013, 19:08 Subject: Re: Solaris, was Re: Amazing uptime... On Apr 3, 2013, at 1:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >? You can do a "Jumpstart" install (a very highly-automated form of network > installation )if you have another running Solaris system.? If you're > unfamiliar with that and want to do it, contact me privately, I can help. You can actually jumpstart from an OSX system and a Linux box. There are various tutorials on this. And now Sun gear is becoming vintage hardware (gasp) and Solaris and SunOS Vintage OSes. So it is OT :D I find it hard to believe the E3000 in my basement could be considered vintage. It is circa 1996 so it's 17 years old :) From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 13:29:40 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:29:40 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=9109_is_now_ob?= =?windows-1252?Q?solete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <64C5B0A6-3A71-4C1D-92CB-751ED456B873@gmail.com> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <515B53CF.2080208@gmail.com> <1364942041.20590.YahooMailNeo@web141401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <64C5B0A6-3A71-4C1D-92CB-751ED456B873@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 9:15 PM, David Riley wrote: > > Which, I guess, is not to say that they weren't difficult to > program, but that supercomputer programmers probably should have > felt right at home > The complaint I heard was the tools were primitive relative to the other architectures out there. You had a somewhat spartan gcc toolchain and BLAS. Compare that with the dozens of highly optimized libraries and toolchains for even generic x86, much less specific chips if you're talking about Intel, especially when you're dealing with threading. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 13:47:48 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:47:48 -0300 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube References: Message-ID: > Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious to > see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, and > was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the game > that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one > presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder which > came first, because the specifications for the two machines are virtually > identical. Do you know a Brazilian (called Eduardo Mello) adapted some MSX games to Colecovision and vice-versa, and made some homebrew games for the Colecovision? Many MSX games were made for MSX and Colecovision on it's time... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 13:48:45 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:48:45 -0300 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube References: Message-ID: <5ADD1FF752F2413CA895DDC7F58467F8@tababook> AFAIR, it was widely distribuited. Look for spectravideo computers and CX5M/CX7M computers --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey Oltmans" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 4:57 PM Subject: Re: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube > If they did it must have been extremely limited distribution, I've never > seen an MSX variant in a store or in the wild ever. > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Martin Goldberg > wrote: > >> Not sure what you mean, both Spectravideo and Yamaha released MSX >> machines >> in the US. They never caught on, so it wasn't for a significant amount of >> time. But they were here. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans > >wrote: >> >> > Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious >> > to >> > see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, >> and >> > was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the >> game >> > that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one >> > presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder >> > which >> > came first, because the specifications for the two machines are >> > virtually >> > identical. >> > >> > On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Terry Stewart > > >wrote: >> > >> > > An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an >> > > interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. >> > > http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I >> > > >> > > Terry (Tez) >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Marty >> From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Apr 3 14:00:20 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:00:20 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <20130403092338.X73571@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> <20130403092338.X73571@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515C7C44.7000600@update.uu.se> On 04/03/2013 06:41 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > That's why I was so incredulous and taken aback by your OFF THE WALL > statements! (YOU were the one who made those statatements - full post > below) I even speculated that my whole perception of such machines was > wrong and that things had gone through extraordinary changes that I > was unaware of! I apparently made the false assumption that we both shared the view on what the Road Runner really is, a collection of CPU's each in its own motherboard each in its own case. So I carelessly thought that when I referred to the possibility of replacing the CPU it would be clear that each CPU would be replaced from it's socket. I seems that you view Roadrunner as _one_ computer and then it certainly becomes ridiculous to talk about _the_ CPU in _a_ socket and I understand why you think I was off the wall. I'm sorry for the confusion and I hope you are not just being sarcastic with me, that translates badly in text. Going back to topic. It certainly is possible to design a super computer that is modular. The SGI Origin2k is a wonderful example of that, though it only scales to a certain limit (128 CPUs I think). Heck, even the Roadrunner is quite modular, you could probably cut it up into a hundred different pieces and each piece would be quite a competent cluster of computer for a researcher willing to pay the power bill. Kind Regards, Pontus. From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 14:02:07 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:02:07 -0500 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I am familiar with him. The biggest difference between the CV and the MSX are the sound chip, and the amount of RAM they have. The CV only has 1K of SRAM. He did that super game module to add 32K of RAM and the sound chip from the MSX to make conversions easier. That should make changes mostly a matter of adapting the controller inputs, and remapping the IN/OUT calls in the game programs. On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious to >> see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, and >> was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the game >> that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one >> presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder which >> came first, because the specifications for the two machines are virtually >> identical. >> > > Do you know a Brazilian (called Eduardo Mello) adapted some MSX games > to Colecovision and vice-versa, and made some homebrew games for the > Colecovision? > > Many MSX games were made for MSX and Colecovision on it's time... > From roelof_klaas at gmx.com Wed Apr 3 14:50:26 2013 From: roelof_klaas at gmx.com (Roland Huisman) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:50:26 +0200 Subject: Wanted: Xebec S1410 and Astec AC9251 powerunit Message-ID: <20130403195026.221690@gmx.com> Hello Everyone, I'm currently restoring a Dutch Holborn 6100 computer. It is an 1982 CP/M machine. Originally it had a hard drive. But the RMS-518 drive, the Xebec S1410 and the Astec AC9251 power supply are gone. Can anyone help me getting the original Xebec controller and power supply? I'd put some pictures on this Dutch forum. http://philipsradios.nl/forum/index.php?id=14288 And can anyone tell me the specifications of the RMS-518 disk? I've found the 503, 506, 512 and 514 but not the RMS 518... Thanks in advance! Regards, Roland From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Apr 3 16:20:21 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 21:20:21 +0000 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 4/2/13 11:44 PM, "Joe Giliberti" wrote: >Finger down your throat seems to work well for the fashion industry > > >On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:08 AM, William Donzelli >wrote: > >> > I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant reaction >>that >> is >> > required for this application. >> >> Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you can get. >> >> -- >> Will >> > > > >-- >Joseph Giliberti >InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum >Get more information at http://www.infoage.org > > OK, this is quickly becoming the weirdest thread I've seen on ClassicCmp... this week. -- Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 3 16:26:36 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <515C7C44.7000600@update.uu.se> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> <20130403092338.X73571@shell.lmi.net> <515C7C44.7000600@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20130403141700.O75226@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Pontus wrote: > I apparently made the false assumption that we both shared the view on > what the Road Runner really is, a collection of CPU's each in its own > motherboard each in its own case. So I carelessly thought that when I > referred to the possibility of replacing the CPU it would be clear that > each CPU would be replaced from it's socket. > I seems that you view Roadrunner as _one_ computer and then it certainly > becomes ridiculous to talk about _the_ CPU in _a_ socket and I > understand why you think I was off the wall. Yeah, that's most of the confusion. I honestly don't know anything about Roadrunner, nor anything about the machine being dismantled after 4 years. Since "top supercomputer" is CERTAINLY going to be upgraded (or replaced) it seemed that upgradeability and/or expansion would be an extremely high priority in the design. > I'm sorry for the confusion and I hope you are not just being sarcastic > with me, that translates badly in text. No, no sarcasm at all. I know that I don't know anything about high end machines, but I was shocked that the design life was only 4 years. > Going back to topic. It certainly is possible to design a super computer > that is modular. The SGI Origin2k is a wonderful example of that, though > it only scales to a certain limit (128 CPUs I think). Heck, even the > Roadrunner is quite modular, you could probably cut it up into a hundred > different pieces and each piece would be quite a competent cluster of > computer for a researcher willing to pay the power bill. I like the idea of that, but honestly have no idea of the practicality. Could multiple 128s be "clustered"? ANY finite limit will eventually get in the way. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Apr 3 16:29:16 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 21:29:16 +0000 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 4/2/13 8:30 AM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: >On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Sam O'nella wrote: >> Has it had a kernel update ever? Uptime can often mean vulnerable >> services too. > >It is possible to design a system that does not require rebooting when >replacing a component that is not currently in use. >If the interface of the component is adequately stabilized and documented, >that "not in use" could even be an interrupt. > >Memory space garbage collection, when properly done, does NOT require >rebooting. > >But systems that screw up on releasing allocated resources when they >are no longer needed, NEED a complete restart periodically. > > As I understand it, a certain large software company of my acquaintance uses the mandatory reboot as a convenience, rather than determining whether affected components are in fact in use. Easier for the programmer - sorry, user! You don't matter. From fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk Wed Apr 3 16:38:40 2013 From: fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk (Mateusz Kowalczyk) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 22:38:40 +0100 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <515CA160.7090004@fuuzetsu.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 03/04/13 22:20, Ian King wrote: > On 4/2/13 11:44 PM, "Joe Giliberti" wrote: > >> Finger down your throat seems to work well for the fashion >> industry >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:08 AM, William Donzelli >> wrote: >> >>>> I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant >>>> reaction >>> that is >>>> required for this application. >>> >>> Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you >>> can get. >>> >>> -- Will >>> >> >> >> >> -- Joseph Giliberti InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and >> Museum Get more information at http://www.infoage.org >> >> > > OK, this is quickly becoming the weirdest thread I've seen on > ClassicCmp... this week. -- Ian > > ?and it's only Wednesday. - -- Mateusz K. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJRXKFfAAoJEM1mucMq2pqXyZ4QAIaNTkXeanKnUC+ix5cz0icY fKW6yQYQXkI4rNYYAiFXwOXsTTFbHo4BUREA+19LXg9bzypX6riCzRocXL838r4H yEyylZMMeVu+KEHYACKx3EbO+sx7QNCrdMMVHVPa1VbNL2ONXnsV5AWvp03XX1Ek Ujdqz1hBAVjZSzfV1dOb7wI4vxPdpJHDpDam5FH/aChmMYDm3cLHZdkuchOhzB0p F/nvFYmCnhvrdlXNIeEhw32BjmCtZwhggpX5mieyNmKDj5/4Ibu/JrolYYdnEc5u BO6bKjXl9MshXZxC7mtnymrzDBlAXHv7k8jv0DHxPsLcyp8kj0V6zMTi6jMBCy7Q p1E5mmF+ZxCx4RpDsyGG6+Xxi+jo9uDL2t+55KC4j7wZ3z6OOaPuqzZ5cacJvk7C AMhMZz+CoJn9DG3Ovvi+qhrW++TW5JU2vsFaPuuUf7vz0Wtj6VdE4vqDMJ8UkiH1 xgT+m+moKlTJPbnkDqbht5hEj7pgNXR14BfzevDfDOBumWNNewd7g9TolewhYSnl KHnUZTzWZWKd7WIgkRmRddqSMg2kO+X9x69d3Pg1cwfrL5DD/BGKhODLxqrXwaZz lLLzs85QlrUSmAJCL4ZC99N/xhPZt8Tt5NNMk4l2IhSEFG5zfFLPI8efzvIiO/rn bQ75UjW6NYljGvslOfS6 =CpIn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From starbase89 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 16:46:44 2013 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:46:44 -0400 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> <515BA694.2060808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: You need to be careful with ipecac, though. Too much can cause cardiac damage. On 4/3/13, William Donzelli wrote: >> I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant reaction that >> is >> required for this application. > > Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you can get. > > -- > Will > -- Joseph Giliberti InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 16:47:48 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:47:48 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Ian King wrote: > As I understand it, a certain large software company of my acquaintance > uses the mandatory reboot as a convenience, rather than determining > whether affected components are in fact in use. Easier for the programmer > - sorry, user! You don't matter. And if you ever lived through a fresh install of Windows 2000 on blank hardware, you can probably relate to this "joke" we came up with during the endless cycles of hardware detect/reboot along the way... "Windows has detected mouse movement. Windows will reboot to commit this change" -ethan From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 3 17:02:04 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:02:04 -0400 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> On 04/03/2013 05:20 PM, Ian King wrote: > On 4/2/13 11:44 PM, "Joe Giliberti" wrote: > >> Finger down your throat seems to work well for the fashion industry >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:08 AM, William Donzelli >> wrote: >> >>>> I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant reaction >>> that >>> is >>>> required for this application. >>> >>> Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you can get. >>> >> > > OK, this is quickly becoming the weirdest thread I've seen on > ClassicCmp... this week. -- Ian > Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs being worth the price we are charged for them... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 3 17:56:01 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> <515BA694.2060808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Joe Giliberti wrote: > You need to be careful with ipecac, though. Too much can cause cardiac damage. > I think that's removed once you hit VP of Marketing or higher anyway. Either way, Nothing of Value Was Lost. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 3 17:56:56 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 04/03/2013 05:20 PM, Ian King wrote: >> On 4/2/13 11:44 PM, "Joe Giliberti" wrote: >> >>> Finger down your throat seems to work well for the fashion industry >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:08 AM, William Donzelli >>> wrote: >>> >>>>> I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant reaction >>>> that >>>> is >>>>> required for this application. >>>> >>>> Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you can get. >>>> >>> >> >> OK, this is quickly becoming the weirdest thread I've seen on >> ClassicCmp... this week. -- Ian >> > > Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs > being worth the price we are charged for them... Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Good one! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 18:01:34 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 23:01:34 +0000 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 03/04/2013 22:47:48 Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... >On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Ian King wrote: >> As I understand it, a certain large software company of my >>acquaintance >> uses the mandatory reboot as a convenience, rather than determining >> whether affected components are in fact in use. Easier for the >>programmer >> - sorry, user! You don't matter. > >And if you ever lived through a fresh install of Windows 2000 on blank >hardware, you can probably relate to this "joke" we came up with during >the endless cycles of hardware detect/reboot along the way... > >"Windows has detected mouse movement. Windows will reboot to commit >this change" > >-ethan Whilst some re-boots are still needed Microsoft put a lot of work into reducing the number needed to install Windows. At 2008R2 it will sometimes install with a single re-boot. Windows/2000 is ver 10 years old now, is it "Vintage" yet???? > >Dave >G4UGM > From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 18:30:01 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:30:01 -0700 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515A36B5.7681.339201D@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <515A36B5.7681.339201D@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <515CBB79.9060708@gmail.com> Anyone know what these are from http://www.ebay.com/itm/150407824254 ? It looks like a Motorola 88000 based cpu board. I was able to find some mentions of a few 88000 floating point boards for use in MicroVAX II but, can't find anything about Avalon A7Q. If these were replacement cpu what did they run ? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 3 19:35:53 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Ian King wrote: >> As I understand it, a certain large software company of my acquaintance >> uses the mandatory reboot as a convenience, rather than determining >> whether affected components are in fact in use. Easier for the programmer >> - sorry, user! You don't matter. > > And if you ever lived through a fresh install of Windows 2000 on blank > hardware, you can probably relate to this "joke" we came up with during > the endless cycles of hardware detect/reboot along the way... > > "Windows has detected mouse movement. Windows will reboot to commit > this change" My favourite tidbit of this sort of thing is this: "Windows has detected that a gnat has farted near your computer. Press any key to reboot." -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 3 20:15:38 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> > > "Windows has detected mouse movement. Windows will reboot to commit > > this change" > "Windows has detected that a gnat has farted near your computer. > Press any key to reboot." Those don't surpass the real one: "No keyboard. Press any key to continue." From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 3 20:18:33 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130403181742.H85291@shell.lmi.net> > >>> Finger down your throat seems to work well for the fashion industry doesn't ANYTHING having to do with the fashion industry accomplish the same thing? From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 3 20:25:35 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:25:35 -0400 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> geneb wrote: >On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> On 04/03/2013 05:20 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> On 4/2/13 11:44 PM, "Joe Giliberti" wrote: >>> >>>> Finger down your throat seems to work well for the fashion industry >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:08 AM, William Donzelli >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant >reaction >>>>> that >>>>> is >>>>>> required for this application. >>>>> >>>>> Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you can >get. >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> OK, this is quickly becoming the weirdest thread I've seen on >>> ClassicCmp... this week. -- Ian >>> >> >> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >> being worth the price we are charged for them... > > >Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! > >Good one! > >g. I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? ;) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Wed Apr 3 22:51:34 2013 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:51:34 -0800 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515CBB79.9060708@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: If it's anything like the one I have, it's a co-processor board used for number-crunching. My recollections point towards imaging applications, but I fergit where I heard that. I used to have the name and number of someone who knew where the drivers and stuff were located; but I'm afraid that these have been lost to us now. Bummer. The folks auctioning these off say they test them. I'd like to know how they do this. > -----Original Message----- > From: mc68010 at gmail.com > Sent: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:30:01 -0700 > To: > Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? > > Anyone know what these are from http://www.ebay.com/itm/150407824254 ? > > It looks like a Motorola 88000 based cpu board. I was able to find some > mentions of a few 88000 floating point boards for use in MicroVAX II > but, can't find anything about Avalon A7Q. If these were replacement cpu > what did they run ? ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Apr 4 00:56:45 2013 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 00:56:45 -0500 Subject: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 09:41:14 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fred Cisin ... >> On Tue, Apr 02, 2013 at 02:31:39PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > I'm having a little difficulty visualizing "The World's Top >> > Supercomputer" >> > as being a single chip CPU on a motherboard. >> > When did "supercomputers" become single board devices? >> > "Put the CPU on a daughterboard"? > > On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Do you really think I'm that stupid? > > Of course not. I acknowledge and respect your expertise. > And, I certainly had no intention of offending you. ----- Reply:----- Yeah, come on, Fred; just because he doesn't seem to understand the concept of a *plural* morpheme and why using the singular to refer to hundreds of an item might cause confusion (especially in this context) doesn't mean he's stupid ;-) I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin of a single CPU compatible with something... Fun with words, and of course as usual surprising and a little disappointing to see how ready and eager some people are instead to see insults or personal attacks in simple misunderstandings... From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 00:21:08 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 22:21:08 -0700 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> On 4/3/2013 8:51 PM, N0body H0me wrote: > If it's anything like the one I have, it's a co-processor board > used for number-crunching. My recollections point towards imaging > applications, but I fergit where I heard that. Those are the only boards I could find either but, Avalon came up nothing. 4mb ram seems seems like a lot of ram for a qbus fpu board. Image processing might make more sense. It does say CPU right on it the label though. > The folks auctioning these off say they test them. I'd like to > know how they do this. > > I've bought stuff from the people selling this before. They are out of Texas and seem to have everything ever for PDP-11 but, in very limited quantities. I got the feeling they were an ancient DEC VAR. Maybe they did test 20 years ago before it got stuck in a bag and filed away. Seems like they may be winding down now and just trying to move stuff. They seem to take most best offers I've thrown at them. It is fairly random though. They turn down offers they should take and take ones they shouldn't. I also got the feeling there may not be a lot of people working there that actually know a lot about what they are selling anymore. Calling them is a lot like calling an auto-parts store staffed by florists. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 4 00:25:28 2013 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 07:25:28 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?World=E2=80=99s_top_supercom?= =?utf-8?Q?puter_from_=E2=80=9809?= is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <20130403141700.O75226@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> <20130403092338.X73571@shell.lmi.net> <515C7C44.7000600@update.uu.se> <20130403141700.O75226@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130404052528.GA2652@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Apr 03, 2013 at 02:26:36PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > Yeah, that's most of the confusion. I honestly don't know anything about > Roadrunner, nor anything about the machine being dismantled after 4 years. Then that is settled, nomhard feelings i hope. > Since "top supercomputer" is CERTAINLY going to be upgraded (or replaced) > it seemed that upgradeability and/or expansion would be an extremely high > priority in the design. To some degree at least. The Titan (I think it was) got an upgrade by replacing all of it's CPUs. > I like the idea of that, but honestly have no idea of the practicality. > Could multiple 128s be "clustered"? Now I had to go and read up. It turns out the O2k could be run in 256 and 512 CPU configurations as well but it was not marketed and supported. And certainly such configurations could then be clustered. In fact it has been done with 48 128 CPU O2k computers interconnected with HIPPI using MPI. Read more here, the linked PDF in the article has a nice picture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCI_Blue_Mountain regards, Pontus From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 4 00:27:42 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 01:27:42 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> On 04/04/2013 01:21 AM, mc68010 wrote: > I've bought stuff from the people selling this before. They are out of Texas > and seem to have everything ever for PDP-11 but, in very limited quantities. > I got the feeling they were an ancient DEC VAR. Maybe they did test 20 years > ago before it got stuck in a bag and filed away. Seems like they may be > winding down now and just trying to move stuff. They seem to take most best > offers I've thrown at them. It is fairly random though. They turn down > offers they should take and take ones they shouldn't. I also got the feeling > there may not be a lot of people working there that actually know a lot about > what they are selling anymore. Calling them is a lot like calling an > auto-parts store staffed by florists. That's JT Computer. They've been around for a very long time. I wouldn't say they're "winding down", but they are very reasonable with offers. They recognize hobbyists and preservationists, and they try to help out when they can. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 4 00:28:47 2013 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 07:28:47 +0200 Subject: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Apr 04, 2013 at 12:56:45AM -0500, MikeS wrote: > Yeah, come on, Fred; just because he doesn't seem to understand the > concept of a *plural* morpheme and why using the singular to refer > to hundreds of an item might cause confusion (especially in this > context) doesn't mean he's stupid ;-) A little stupid.. I know about the rules for appending an S in the right place, I just can't seem to master them. > I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then > I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks > about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple > pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin > of a single CPU compatible with something... :) > Fun with words, and of course as usual surprising and a little > disappointing to see how ready and eager some people are instead to > see insults or personal attacks in simple misunderstandings... I should really know better than to write replies when I am tired and grumpy, sorry Fred. Cheers, Pontus From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 4 00:44:09 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 22:44:09 -0700 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:21 PM -0700 4/3/13, mc68010 wrote: >Calling them is a lot like calling an auto-parts store staffed by florists. This just might be one of the best comments I've ever read on CLASSICCMP! :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 00:49:03 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 22:49:03 -0700 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> On 4/3/2013 10:27 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > That's JT Computer. They've been around for a very long time. I > wouldn't say they're "winding down", but they are very reasonable with > offers. They recognize hobbyists and preservationists, and they try to > help out when they can. -Dave What's their story ? Were they big players in the DEC arena ? How do they have so much stuff left after all these years ? I understand the guys out there that charge insane money for stuff having things left on the shelf waiting for that call from corporate purchasing but, these guys are really reasonable. Some stuff way cheaper than ebay. Some things not so much. Their shipping isn't always fair or make sense. They charged me $13 to ship a 3oz kdj11 console panel. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Apr 4 01:54:08 2013 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 01:54:08 -0500 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130404065408.GA6732@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Apr 03, 2013 at 06:15:38PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > Those don't surpass the real one: > "No keyboard. Press any key to continue." This reminds me of one of the most amusing looks I ever received from a PC tech. I was working as a data entry clerk in freight bill entry somewhere near the end of the last century. My PC was running a version of Windoze that would boot without a mouse. I think it was Windoze 95. Anyway, PC techs from the home office were at the terminal I worked at doing something to all the PCs. When a tech got to mine he looked around and said, "Um ... where's your mouse?" When I pointed to the bottom drawer of my desk I think he almost went into shock. He was lost without a mouse. To keep this slightly on topic at that time freight bill entry clerks entered bills into Synergy, a text DOS based program. Each Synergy server "entered" freight bills into TFMS, a CICS based freight bill rating package, via three Attachmate sessions. We had four Synergy servers back then. As for the mainframe Synergy was "entering" bills into we were running MVS on an IBM 3090. At least I think it was a 3090, I'm not positive. I eventually made my way from data entry into mainframe operations, and I'm still working as an operator. Just before I moved into operations we upgraded to OS/390, and to a large refrigerator sized mainframe with a yellow "speed bump." I can't remember the model number. We're now running z/OS on a 2086 with a copper "speed bump." I wish I had made it into operations back when the mainframe and its peripherals filled the computer room. Sadly we eventually downgraded from the DOS based Synergy to a Windoze version. I heard it slowed down freight bill entry clerks quite a bit. If that wasn't bad enough we've now outsourced our freight bill entry to a company in The Philippines. Aaaaarrrrrggggg!! -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://Lassie.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 15:17:19 2013 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 16:17:19 -0400 Subject: DEC M7522 (RUX50) Unibus Quad-slot RX50 Controller Message-ID: I've been trying to track down online documentation (manual, engineering drawings) for this Quad Unibus card, a controller for the RX50. No luck at all. Nada :-<. Just some references in RSX/RSTS/Ultrix marketing documents. Does anyone have, or know where such documentation can be found? Also, does anyone have (or knows someone who has) a spare/loose M7522 that they'd be willing to part with? Thanks! ----- From roe at liveblockauctions.com Wed Apr 3 18:21:14 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:21:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Qbus identification Message-ID: I'm looking at upgrading a pdp11/73 in a pdp11/23plus box to an 11/83. Is there a simple multimeter test I can do on a qbus slot to determine if it is Q/Q -- which i understand can be serpentine, or Q/CD, which are PMI capable for the 11/83 CPU. Thanks. From pyrrhonean at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 01:56:13 2013 From: pyrrhonean at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 17:56:13 +1100 Subject: SMD cables: anyone with surplus A and B? Message-ID: I have acquired several SMD disk drives (Emulex SD590 - 859MB), and have tracked down an Emulex QD controller but so far no cables. I understand the cables are relatively simple but it would be useful to have an example cable before I try to make my own, or I could save some time if someone has a box of surplus SMD cables they no longer need. thanks. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 02:47:17 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 08:47:17 +0100 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130404065408.GA6732@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> <20130404065408.GA6732@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <515D3005.8000407@gmail.com> On 04/04/2013 07:54, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > On Wed, Apr 03, 2013 at 06:15:38PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Those don't surpass the real one: >> "No keyboard. Press any key to continue." > This reminds me of one of the most amusing looks I ever received from a PC > tech. I was working as a data entry clerk in freight bill entry somewhere > near the end of the last century. My PC was running a version of Windoze > that would boot without a mouse. I think it was Windoze 95. Anyway, PC > techs from the home office were at the terminal I worked at doing something > to all the PCs. When a tech got to mine he looked around and said, "Um ... > where's your mouse?" When I pointed to the bottom drawer of my desk I think > he almost went into shock. He was lost without a mouse. > > To keep this slightly on topic at that time freight bill entry clerks > entered bills into Synergy, a text DOS based program. Each Synergy server > "entered" freight bills into TFMS, a CICS based freight bill rating package, > via three Attachmate sessions. We had four Synergy servers back then. As > for the mainframe Synergy was "entering" bills into we were running MVS on > an IBM 3090. At least I think it was a 3090, I'm not positive. I > eventually made my way from data entry into mainframe operations, and I'm > still working as an operator. Just before I moved into operations we > upgraded to OS/390, and to a large refrigerator sized mainframe with a > yellow "speed bump." I can't remember the model number. We're now running > z/OS on a 2086 with a copper "speed bump." I wish I had made it into > operations back when the mainframe and its peripherals filled the computer > room. > > Sadly we eventually downgraded from the DOS based Synergy to a Windoze > version. I heard it slowed down freight bill entry clerks quite a bit. If > that wasn't bad enough we've now outsourced our freight bill entry to a > company in The Philippines. Aaaaarrrrrggggg!! > > > I remember being shown an app some one had written to run on Windows that they wanted to make like DOS. They wanted to stop everything happening while they waited for a response from the mainframe. Well its rather hard to do in a message switch like Windows where each program has a message queue. They had removed the mouse and made the app full screen and said they didn't think any one could now re-size it to do anything else. Sadly for them the keyboard was the a new style Compaq with the short space bar and the "alt" key next to it, I gently brushed the space bar, making sure I grazed the alt key first to reveal the system menu, with the move and re-size options. Oh were they upset! -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 4 03:28:50 2013 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 09:28:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1365064130.72446.YahooMailNeo@web87801.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> That's a POST error message - nothing to do with Windows. ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thursday, 4 April 2013, 2:15 Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... > > "Windows has detected mouse movement.? Windows will reboot to commit > > this change" > "Windows has detected that a gnat has farted near your computer. > Press any key to reboot." Those don't surpass the real one: "No keyboard.? Press any key to continue." From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 07:51:55 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:51:55 -0400 Subject: Qbus identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7635DB63-5D5D-4BA4-B5D5-F7DA22A4E165@gmail.com> On Apr 3, 2013, at 19:21, Roe Peterson wrote: > > I'm looking at upgrading a pdp11/73 in a pdp11/23plus box to an 11/83. Is there a simple multimeter test I can do on a qbus slot to determine if it is Q/Q -- which i understand can be serpentine, or Q/CD, which are PMI capable for the 11/83 CPU. Easier: find the model number of your backplane here: http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis If you have a BA23 or BA11-S chassis, you ought to be set. - Dave From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Apr 4 07:55:17 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 07:55:17 -0500 Subject: Qbus identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515D7835.2030707@compsys.to> >Roe Peterson wrote: >I'm looking at upgrading a pdp11/73 in a pdp11/23plus box to an 11/83. Is there a simple multimeter test I can do on a qbus slot to determine if it is Q/Q -- which i understand can be serpentine, or Q/CD, which are PMI capable for the 11/83 CPU. > I hope that Allison is available to determine if I am suggesting a possibility that might damage a board of the backplane. I doubt that is a possibility, but just in case, can anyone else please comment as well. A BA23 box is wired with the top 3 slots as Q/CD and the lower 5 slots as Q22 / Q22. If a backplane slot is wired as Q / CD, then that slot can hold ONLY a single board, either dual OR quad, on the left side of the slot. If a backplane slot is wired as Q/Q, then either one quad board or two dual boards are used. The order of the boards in a BA23 is: !A 1 2A 2 3A 3 4A / 4B 4 / 5 5A / 5B 7 / 6 6A / 6B 8 / 9 etc. Depending on if your PDP-11/73 uses any or none of the "B" portion of the backplane when a dual board is present, you already know if any of the backplane is Q/Q. Since you have not provided a list of the boards and the location of each board, I can not comment further. However, you can always place a dual board in an "A" slot and leave "B" portion empty. If that slot is Q/Q, then the bus grant will be broken and any boards beyond that location in the chain will not interrupt. If I have not explained the situation carefully enough, please ask more questions. Do you already have the M8190-AE and the PMI memory boards? If you do, then you may want to compare the speed difference. When I performed a similar benchmark under RT-11, I found that the PDP-11/83 was about 33% faster than the PDP-11/73. About 20% was due to using the PMI memory (which usually works with the PDP-11/73 boards as well) and about 13% was due to the faster crystal on the M8190-AE board. If you have any more questions, please ask. Jerome Fine From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 07:57:48 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:57:48 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> On Apr 4, 2013, at 1:49, mc68010 wrote: > On 4/3/2013 10:27 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> That's JT Computer. They've been around for a very long time. I wouldn't say they're "winding down", but they are very reasonable with offers. They recognize hobbyists and preservationists, and they try to help out when they can. -Dave > > What's their story ? Were they big players in the DEC arena ? How do they have so much stuff left after all these years ? I understand the guys out there that charge insane money for stuff having things left on the shelf waiting for that call from corporate purchasing but, these guys are really reasonable. Some stuff way cheaper than ebay. Some things not so much. Their shipping isn't always fair or make sense. They charged me $13 to ship a 3oz kdj11 console panel. Bear in mind that that's probably what UPS charged. If it's calculated on eBay's page, that's a calculation straight from the shipping company. I've had great experiences with them on eBay. I made a very discounted offer on an MSV11-QC (burst-capable, 4MB QBUS RAM, very nice item) for less than half the asking price and mentioned that I was a hobbyist without deep pockets; the offer was accepted. I find that their prices seem pretty reasonable to me; they'll charge a premium for genuinely rare items like an 11/93 CPU, but that's their prerogative. Meanwhile, they're charging $120 for an 11/83 CPU, which is something I really should get on. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 4 08:03:57 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 06:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >>> being worth the price we are charged for them... >> >> >> Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! >> >> Good one! >> >> g. > > I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? > ;) Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you paid for it new. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 4 08:31:17 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:31:17 -0500 Subject: DEC M7522 (RUX50) Unibus Quad-slot RX50 Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00be01ce3138$afc9f160$0f5dd420$@com> Where are you located? I have located 2 in Germany, and several in the US. I can provide the name and number or email of the dealers that have them. Sorry, they do not have prices listed. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Birkel Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 3:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: DEC M7522 (RUX50) Unibus Quad-slot RX50 Controller I've been trying to track down online documentation (manual, engineering drawings) for this Quad Unibus card, a controller for the RX50. No luck at all. Nada :-<. Just some references in RSX/RSTS/Ultrix marketing documents. Does anyone have, or know where such documentation can be found? Also, does anyone have (or knows someone who has) a spare/loose M7522 that they'd be willing to part with? Thanks! ----- ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3162/6223 - Release Date: 04/03/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3162/6223 - Release Date: 04/03/13 From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Apr 4 08:45:47 2013 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (stefan skoglund(agj)) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:45:47 +0200 Subject: twenex.org login HELP Message-ID: <1365083147.12404.2.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Silly me but: i have done multiple tries to login to twenex.org I have done MKACCT at the homepage and the answer email with my user id and password has arrived but: i'm unsuccessful at login time so HELP ! (user id ssd name Stefan Skoglund password ....) From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 4 09:08:51 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 10:08:51 -0400 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> Message-ID: <515D8973.50401@sbcglobal.net> On 04/04/2013 09:03 AM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >>>> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >>>> being worth the price we are charged for them... >>> >>> >>> Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> >>> Good one! >>> >>> g. >> >> I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? >> ;) > > Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you > paid for it new. :) > > g. > :) I'm currently trying to clean out my email boxes of the old crap.... A little history: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:37:02 -0400 (EDT) From: der Mouse Reply-To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> So now what is the difference between an Intel Mac and PC? > the mac is still horribly over priced. Even if the Mac's sticker price is more than the peecee's (and I saw one comment in this thread which implies it isn't, though I am familiar with neither's price point myself), this does not necessarily make the Mac overpriced. I've never seen an Intel-CPU Mac. But I've seen recent PowerPC Macs, and if they stick to the same level of quality, the Intel Mac is worth signifcantly more money than a commodity peecee with similar paper specs. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 4 09:12:18 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 09:12:18 -0500 Subject: oldies from the warehouse piles.... Message-ID: <00f901ce313e$6a683270$3f389750$@com> I just dug a few oldies from the stacks, will test if anyone is interested in them: Digital Starion 942 Amiga 2500 Amiga 4000/040 Packard Bell Legend 245 Compaq Presario 9642 (tower) Compaq Presario 7212 (desktop) Compaq Presario 7180 (desktop) The last three were part of a distributed computing experiment we did several years ago, so I know they will work. _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3162/6223 - Release Date: 04/03/13 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 09:40:07 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 10:40:07 -0400 Subject: DEC M7522 (RUX50) Unibus Quad-slot RX50 Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Paul Birkel wrote: > I've been trying to track down online documentation (manual, engineering > drawings) for this Quad Unibus card, a controller for the RX50. No luck at > all. Nada :-<. Just some references in RSX/RSTS/Ultrix marketing > documents. > > Does anyone have, or know where such documentation can be found? I may have documentation. I am shifting a lot of items this month. If I run across it, I will pull it. > Also, does anyone have (or knows someone who has) a spare/loose M7522 that > they'd be willing to part with? I just have the one (we got it at my former job for making software distrubution floppies on our 11/750 for our MicroVAX customers, back when such things were new). No spares. Sorry. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 4 09:40:24 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 07:40:24 -0700 Subject: twenex.org login HELP In-Reply-To: <1365083147.12404.2.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1365083147.12404.2.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: You might try asking on the alt.sys.pdp10 USENET group. Zane At 3:45 PM +0200 4/4/13, stefan skoglund(agj) wrote: >Silly me but: > >i have done multiple tries to login to twenex.org > >I have done MKACCT at the homepage and the answer email with my user id >and password has arrived but: >i'm unsuccessful at login time so HELP ! > >(user id ssd name Stefan Skoglund password ....) -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Apr 4 10:01:31 2013 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 10:01:31 -0500 Subject: Toshiba T1910 manuals Message-ID: <5637A323-E1B6-432A-A003-B4606BDA0C08@centurytel.net> Does anyone have a need for the manuals for a Toshiba T1910 Satellite Notebook Computer 486-33? "Getting Started", "Reference Manual", "Reconfiguration Guide", "Companion Guide", and an "Intel387SX Math Coprocessor User's Cuide and Utilities Software". Will sell really cheap (basically just cover postage cost) or they're going in the trash. thanks Charles From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Apr 4 10:13:47 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 15:13:47 +0000 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B74357B78@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > Anyone know what these are from http://www.ebay.com/itm/150407824254 ? > > It looks like a Motorola 88000 based cpu board. I was able to find > some mentions of a few 88000 floating point boards for use in MicroVAX > II but, can't find anything about Avalon A7Q. If these were > replacement cpu what did they run ? Avalon sold math and especially FFT/image/convolution/deconvultuionco-processors in the late 80's and 90's. Used in (among other things I'm sure) medical imaging back-projectors. "Back-projector" seems to mean something different today in google searches... back in the 80's and 90's we called the processing system that takes raw data from CAT scanners and turns it into a image, "convolvers" and "back projectors". For a while in the early 90's, the same generation Avalon co-processor was available in Unibus, Q-bus, and Turbochannel all at the same time. I remember I could get a Alpha processor on a Unibus card at one point! For a while (again mid-90's?), I think one company that sold Avalon boards used the name "teraflop.com". e.g. http://web.archive.org/web/19970116193017/http://teraflop.com/acs/acs.html Avalon corporate history also at archive.org: http://web.archive.org/web/19970116193719/http://teraflop.com/acs/html/history.html This (from the mid-90's) discusses some of the history of Avalon from a typical number-cruncher's perspective: http://www.taborcommunications.com/archives/1530.html Tim. From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 4 10:43:52 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 11/780 Message-ID: <1365090232.96105.YahooMailNeo@web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I just recently acquired a very nearly complete VAX 11/780. I will be spending the next few months in a partial tear down and cleaning and with luck, hopefully little money to get it operational again. I am looking for whatever spare parts I can find for the VAX and its TU78 tape drive. I have plenty of spare drives and such. One thing I am in need of is a console boot floppy and whatever diags I can find on floppy for it. Also, I do have a hobbyist license but I would like to get an early version of VMS to run on it if I can find a tape. I would be glad to pay shipping and/or trade for items. Thanks, Brian. From radioengr at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 11:26:44 2013 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 09:26:44 -0700 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B74357B78@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B74357B78@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <515DA9C4.5000801@gmail.com> On 4/4/2013 8:13 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> Anyone know what these are from http://www.ebay.com/itm/150407824254 ? Somewhat related - I was cleaning up the other day and found (very good condition) - Motorola MC88100 RISC Microprocessor User's Manual Motorola MC88200 CACHE/MMU User's Manual I didn't see either of these on bitsaver.org Free to a good home. Otherwise they're off to the trash bin. Rob. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 11:48:59 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:48:59 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130404065408.GA6732@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> <20130404065408.GA6732@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: > Just before I moved into operations we > upgraded to OS/390, and to a large refrigerator sized mainframe with a > yellow "speed bump." I can't remember the model number. Very likely a Multiprise 2000 (machine type is 2003). -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 4 12:04:01 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 11:04:01 -0600 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Earlier I wrote: > OK, I've got an HP X-Y display with the older power cord connector, > where the three pins are round instead of two being blades and the > only the ground pin being round. The entire plug socket is also > rounded instead of angled. Found a guy who has them for considerably cheaper than ebay and he still has stock for anyone else who needs some: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 4 12:07:00 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 10:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > A little stupid.. I know about the rules for appending an S in the right place, I just > can't seem to master them. > > I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then > > I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks > > about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple > > pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin > > of a single CPU compatible with something... English has inconsistent rules, and freely breaks them. It seems to have more IRREGULAR conjugations, declensions, and plurals. Can anyone explain why the 'I' is after the 'E' in "WEIRD"? "I disconnected the speaker on all of the computers in the lab." does not imply that they share a speaker. Should I have said that I disconnected the "speakerS"? or maybe "the speaker on EACH computer"? And, in this particular example, "pin compatible" (or "pin-compatible") is a commonly used adjective that is not plural, no matter how many pins the device has. > > Fun with words, and of course as usual surprising and a little > > disappointing to see how ready and eager some people are instead to > > see insults or personal attacks in simple misunderstandings... Isn't that how MOST wars start? We react to perceived insults. > I should really know better than to write replies when I am tired and > grumpy, sorry Fred. 's'OK I often ask about things that I don't have a clue about. and I earned my nickname. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 12:18:27 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 10:18:27 -0700 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> On 4/4/2013 5:57 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 4, 2013, at 1:49, mc68010 wrote: > >> Their shipping isn't always fair or make sense. They charged me $13 to ship a 3oz kdj11 console panel. > Bear in mind that that's probably what UPS charged. If it's > calculated on eBay's page, that's a calculation straight > from the shipping company. Oh their shipping is fine when you buy stuff from them on ebay. Ebay controls that. They have a nice collection of little odd parts like cables and panels you can only find through their outside website and by calling them to order. That's when there shipping hasn't always been kind. Their website http://www.jtcomputer.com/index.asp is what always made me wonder what their backstory was. It is such a generic off the shelf e-commerce site that makes them seem more like a PC servicing business not a big DEC parts shop. It really makes it look like they are a really small firm. Like two people in a office somewhere and a storage locker full of old DEC parts. From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 4 12:25:32 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:25:32 -0500 Subject: update to Amiga 4000/040, for all those who have asked Message-ID: <025101ce3159$69099890$3b1cc9b0$@com> The Amiga 4000 powers on with no errors. The original battery is on the motherboard, but there is no visible damage. The motherboard is exceptionally clean. There is an EB920 network card (1 BNC) and a modem installed in the ISA slots, as well as 2 sticks of memory. The hard drive is a Seagate ST3144A that does not make excessive noise. I found a Commodore 1084S monitor with the appropriate cable, plugged everything in, and it works! The screen scrolls badly, so that needs to be adjusted, but it is evident that there is a GUI installed. I do not find an Amiga keyboard or a Commodore mouse at this time, but I do have 9-pin serial mice and standard PS2 keyboards. Asking $400 for the computer, monitor, 9-pin mouse and generic kbd, includes UPS ground shipping to commercial address. Add $20 for residential address. Please note the rubber feet on the computer have melted into a gooey mess, so I will remove them. The case top has several scratches/rubs, and the front plate has a minor chip on the bottom. The monitor is in good shape, although not the same shade as the computer. There is no CDROM in the computer, just the floppy and hard drive. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3162/6223 - Release Date: 04/03/13 From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 12:51:16 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 13:51:16 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515DA9C4.5000801@gmail.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B74357B78@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <515DA9C4.5000801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1D27B1D0-10DB-4FCB-8F8F-4B7E8A941B70@gmail.com> On Apr 4, 2013, at 12:26 PM, Rob Doyle wrote: > On 4/4/2013 8:13 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >>> Anyone know what these are from http://www.ebay.com/itm/150407824254 ? > > Somewhat related - > > I was cleaning up the other day and found (very good condition) - > > Motorola MC88100 RISC Microprocessor User's Manual > Motorola MC88200 CACHE/MMU User's Manual > > I didn't see either of these on bitsaver.org > > Free to a good home. Otherwise they're off to the trash bin. I think I have scans of them, but I'd welcome the dead-tree version if they haven't been claimed, assuming postage won't murder me. Do I recall that you're in the UK? To calculate shipping, I'm in Philadelphia, PA 19146 in the US. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 12:54:08 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 13:54:08 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <1D27B1D0-10DB-4FCB-8F8F-4B7E8A941B70@gmail.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B74357B78@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <515DA9C4.5000801@gmail.com> <1D27B1D0-10DB-4FCB-8F8F-4B7E8A941B70@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3AC80D69-50DA-4A79-94BC-35978BF1D92D@gmail.com> [M88k manual shipping stuff] Sorry, didn't mean for that to go to the list. If anyone wants the scans, though, I'll be glad to send them along, including to Bitsavers; if anyone can help me figure out what I need to do to the pile of TIFFs to make it more Bitsavers-friendly, I'd really appreciate the help. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Apr 4 13:51:55 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled] In-Reply-To: <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > English has inconsistent [spelling] rules, and freely breaks them. Indeed. In my more cynical moments I sometimes feel it has more rules than it does words. Consider `laughter'. Now prepend an `s'. Or change the `l' to a `d'. Or take `bough' and append a `t' to it. Or consider all the ways to pronouce `ough': bough, rough, through, though, cough, ought... Having lived for the last 30 years or so in Quebec, I am very aware of the things that make French difficult to learn for an anglophone. But English is no picnic itself; it's just that, having grown up with it, I've internalized the issues to the extent that I no longer notice them absent specific conscious attention (as now). The first time I had occasion to pronounce the card game name "euchre", I picked the wrong paradigm for the initial vowels and pronounced it "oyker" (my template was (Leonhard) Euler's name - why that rather than "eunuch" or "euphoria" or "eucalyptus" or "euphemism", I don't know). > "I disconnected the speaker on all of the computers in the lab." does > not imply that they share a speaker. Strictly speaking, the grammatical construct does imply that; in the case of that particular sentence that implication is overridden by the semantic unlikelihood of having all the lab's computers sharing a single speaker. > Should I have said that I disconnected the "speakerS"? or maybe "the > speaker on EACH computer"? Either one would fix it, yes. > And, in this particular example, "pin compatible" (or > "pin-compatible") is a commonly used adjective that is not plural, no > matter how many pins the device has. Right. The issue there wasn't with the "pin compatible" adjective, possibly excepting its compound nature. The text was "... didn't make the CPU's pin compatible". "CPU's" looks more like a possessive than a plural (the plural would be "CPUs"); if you read it as a possessive then the parse is forced to "...didn't make (the CPU's pin) compatible [with something unspecified]", and there's no way for "the CPU's pin", as a noun phrase, to be anything but singular. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 14:16:59 2013 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 21:16:59 +0200 Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled] In-Reply-To: <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Mouse wrote: > > > English has inconsistent [spelling] rules, and freely breaks them. > > Indeed. In my more cynical moments I sometimes feel it has more rules > than it does words. Consider `laughter'. Now prepend an `s'. Or > change the `l' to a `d'. Or take `bough' and append a `t' to it. Or > consider all the ways to pronouce `ough': bough, rough, through, > though, cough, ought... I'm fond of this poem by Rosemary Chen, I guess what's true for Asians is also true for the Dutch: Enough Is Enough Four letters cause me disillusion OUGH makes phonetic confusion Four simple letters with four pronunciations Make learning English tough for Asians. OUGH has no logic, no rule Or rhyme or rhythm; it will fool All who struggle to master expression English may cause thorough depression. I pour some water in a trough I sneeze and splutter, then I cough. And with a rough hewn bough My muddy paddy fields I plough. Loaves of warm bread in a row Crispy crusts and doughy dough. Now, my final duty to do And then my chores will all be through. My lament is finished, even though Learning this word game is really slow. It is so difficult, it's very rough Learning English is really tough. If a trough was a truff And a plough was a pluff If dough was duff And though was thuff If cough was cuff And through was thruff I would not pretend, or try to bluff, But of OUGH I've had enough Camiel. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 4 15:15:48 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 21:15:48 +0100 Subject: Qbus identification In-Reply-To: <7635DB63-5D5D-4BA4-B5D5-F7DA22A4E165@gmail.com> References: <7635DB63-5D5D-4BA4-B5D5-F7DA22A4E165@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515DDF74.7020209@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/04/2013 13:51, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 3, 2013, at 19:21, Roe Peterson > wrote: >> >> I'm looking at upgrading a pdp11/73 in a pdp11/23plus box to an >> 11/83. Is there a simple multimeter test I can do on a qbus slot >> to determine if it is Q/Q [ ... ] >> or Q/CD, which are PMI capable for the 11/83 CPU. > > Easier: find the model number of your backplane here: > > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis > > If you have a BA23 or BA11-S chassis, you ought to be set. Indeed, or as Jerome suggested, looking at the configuration of the cards may give you a clue. So would the type of box: if it's a 3U-high (5.25") grey-fronted-metal-panel rack-mount box with three toggle switches, it's a BA11-N or BA11-S, which have straight backplanes (and are all QQ-CD), if it's a small tabletop box or a 2U (3.5") it's a BA11-V (tabletop) or BA11-M (2U) which have serpentine backplanes, and if it's a floor-standing microPDP-11 (or microVAX) box or a chassis with four or six pushbuttons on the front, it's a BA23 box which is QQ-CD in the top slots and serpentine below. Or count the card slots. All 9-slot backplanes are straight. 8-slot and 13-slot are mixed (for microPDP-11 and microVAX). Anything else is serpentine. BA11-M and BA11-V boxes are relatively uncommon. If it's a BA11-N, although the backplane is 18-bit, it's very easy to upgrade to 22-bit. >> -- which I understand can be serpentine, All Q-Q backplanes are serpentine, and all straight backplanes are QQ-CD. The only odd one is the hex-high DDV11-B, which is a serpentine backplane in the ABCD positions and not bussed at all (except for power in the standard contact positions) in EF - it's meant for custom wiring. Of course we're assuming it's a DEC box with a DEC backplane. A Plessey backplane, for example, might be different, but you'd probably know if it was non-DEC, because it's pretty rare to find DEC's dark green connectors on anything non-DEC. Plessey and GEC ones, again for example, are white. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 4 14:28:37 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 20:28:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 3, 13 06:15:38 pm Message-ID: > Those don't surpass the real one: > "No keyboard. Press any key to continue." IIRC the original message was somethign like 'Keyboard Failure Press F1 to continue' and it makes rrther more sense. It means the keybaord failed the POST, a key stuck down wil lcasue that. And in that case, it alerts the user to get the keybaord fixed (or it alerts the hacker to take the keybaord to bits), but pressing F1 (assuming that's not rhe faulty eky) wil ltehn causew the system to boot and you can use it apart from the stuck key. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 15:27:09 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:27:09 -0500 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515DE21D.7040005@gmail.com> On 04/03/2013 08:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> "Windows has detected mouse movement. Windows will reboot to commit >>> this change" >> "Windows has detected that a gnat has farted near your computer. >> Press any key to reboot." > > Those don't surpass the real one: > "No keyboard. Press any key to continue." :-) "Cannot delete : There is not enough free disk space. Delete one or more files to free disk space, and then try again" has always made me chuckle. I think that was Win95 (possibly NT4). From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 4 15:20:50 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 21:20:50 +0100 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515DE0A2.600@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/04/2013 18:04, Richard wrote: > Earlier I wrote: >> OK, I've got an HP X-Y display with the older power cord connector, >> where the three pins are round instead of two being blades and the >> only the ground pin being round. The entire plug socket is also >> rounded instead of angled. Be aware there are two versions of those, one with "hot left of ground" and one with "hot right of ground". I found that out when I was looking for one for my Cromemco. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wilson at dbit.com Thu Apr 4 15:36:23 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 16:36:23 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130404203623.GA16367@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Apr 04, 2013 at 10:18:27AM -0700, mc68010 wrote: >Their website http://www.jtcomputer.com/index.asp is what always made >me wonder what their backstory was. It is such a generic off the >shelf e-commerce site that makes them seem more like a PC servicing >business not a big DEC parts shop. It really makes it look like they >are a really small firm. Like two people in a office somewhere and a >storage locker full of old DEC parts. J.T. goes way back and they're definitely the real thing, no matter what size they are nowadays. I've gotten a few odds and ends from them but the winner was a working RM80. IIRC shipping from TX to NY was $200 which seemed *very* reasonable, but this was ~21 years ago. Still have it (with ITS installed). John Wilson D Bit From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 15:40:54 2013 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 22:40:54 +0200 Subject: VAX4000-100A with P-cache problems Message-ID: Hello. I have a VAX4000-100A system, that's fully working, except for a strange error on boot that notify about errors in the P-cache. VMS starts up, but again it notify that P-cache will be disabled due to high error-rate. Probably the CPU has been damaged somehow, or it's malfunctioning (if I'm not wrong the P-cache is integrated inside the CPU). Anybody ever had a similar problem? Could it be possible to find a replacement CPU somewhere, not at terrible cost? Thanks Andrea From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 4 15:40:55 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 21:40:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now In-Reply-To: <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Apr 4, 13 02:51:55 pm Message-ID: > > > English has inconsistent [spelling] rules, and freely breaks them. > > Indeed. In my more cynical moments I sometimes feel it has more rules > than it does words. Consider `laughter'. Now prepend an `s'. Or That reminds me of a sentence that I think is quoted in one of Martin Gardner's books : 'Show the bold Prussian that praised slaughet, slaugher brings rout. Teach this slaughter-lover his fall nears' Yo can delete the intial letter of all the words to form a new sentence. Incidentalyl, for the 'i before e' rule, I always liked : 'E before E except after C. We live in a weird society' :-) > > "I disconnected the speaker on all of the computers in the lab." does > > not imply that they share a speaker. > > Strictly speaking, the grammatical construct does imply that; in the > case of that particular sentence that implication is overridden by the > semantic unlikelihood of having all the lab's computers sharing a > single speaker. > > > Should I have said that I disconnected the "speakerS"? or maybe "the > > speaker on EACH computer"? > > Either one would fix it, yes. But 'I disconencted the speakers of al lthe computers in the lab' could mean multipel speakers for each machine. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 4 15:46:38 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 13:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515DE21D.7040005@gmail.com> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> <515DE21D.7040005@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/03/2013 08:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> "Windows has detected mouse movement. Windows will reboot to commit >>>> this change" >>> "Windows has detected that a gnat has farted near your computer. >>> Press any key to reboot." >> >> Those don't surpass the real one: >> "No keyboard. Press any key to continue." > > :-) > > "Cannot delete : There is not enough free disk space. Delete one or > more files to free disk space, and then try again" has always made me > chuckle. I think that was Win95 (possibly NT4). > My all time favorite windows error: Error: The operation completed successfully. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 16:06:21 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 17:06:21 -0400 Subject: Qbus identification In-Reply-To: <515DDF74.7020209@dunnington.plus.com> References: <7635DB63-5D5D-4BA4-B5D5-F7DA22A4E165@gmail.com> <515DDF74.7020209@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 4 April 2013 16:15, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Or count the card slots. All 9-slot backplanes are straight. 8-slot > and 13-slot are mixed (for microPDP-11 and microVAX). Anything else is > serpentine. > That's not correct. The H9273-A backplane (quad wide, nine slot long, QQ/CD 18-bit) of the BA11-N box can be replaced with an H9275-A backplane (quad wide, nine slot long, QQ/QQ 22-bit) which is a serpentine backplane specifically designed to be put inside of a BA11-N box (for OEM use). I should know; I have an H9275-A backplane! (I don't have a BA11-N box to use it in though...) The H9276-A backplane of the BA11-S is a 22-bit wide QQ/CD straight backplane though. The "odd" DDV11 backplane is also a 9 slot backplane, but it is 18-bit, has the AB/CD slots as standard serpentine QBUS and the EF slots as just power and grounds. (For shits and giggles, rewire them as CD slots and have a QQ/QQ/CD backplane.) Also of note, the BA11-M box with H9720 is an 18-bit quad-wide serpentine backplane of four slots length; which can also have an H9270-Q backplane installed which is the same size but 22-bit. The BA11-V is always 18-bit (don't know if you can easily upgrade it to 22-bit) but only dual wide and four slots long if I remember (so, the serpentine moniker is incorrect). Only other QBUS backplanes of note are the H9281 series, where again the serpentine/straight+CD distinction is a non-issue since those are all dual-wide backplanes of various lengths. (And there's the H9278 of the BA23 which we'll ignore as you probably won't see one of those floating around "naked" without its box.) Cheers, Christian From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 16:15:29 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 17:15:29 -0400 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: <5147843E.8000806@jwsss.com> References: <5147843E.8000806@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <876C1887-AAC1-408F-8C5B-50219238C438@gmail.com> On Mar 18, 2013, at 5:16 PM, jim s wrote: > perhaps like the one in this auction for a Wurlitzer? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/121072536510 Hm, my Wurlitzer just has the power cord hardwired in. If I were any good at woodworking, I would have replaced it with an IEC receptacle long ago. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 16:21:37 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 17:21:37 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> On Apr 4, 2013, at 1:18 PM, mc68010 wrote: > [JT Computers] > > Their website http://www.jtcomputer.com/index.asp is what always made me wonder what their backstory was. It is such a generic off the shelf e-commerce site that makes them seem more like a PC servicing business not a big DEC parts shop. It really makes it look like they are a really small firm. Like two people in a office somewhere and a storage locker full of old DEC parts. I'm sure they had a website consultant build it for them. Lots of computer stores don't have a clue how to build a website, and it's easier to hire someone to make one. That someone then builds it from a template that makes it look like any other e-commerce site (as you described). Two people in an office somewhere and a storage locker (or warehouse, more likely) of computer parts is probably exactly what it is; you don't need a whole lot of staff to do what they do, and they do it fairly well. Website builders like that are responsible for this atrocity: http://www.baynesvilleelectronics.com Baynesville Electronics is one of the few remaining "real" electronics stores in the Baltimore area. It's pretty much the only place I know where I could go and buy resistors, diodes, ICs, transformers, etc. for the past decade or so. But from the website, you wouldn't have a clue what they really were. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 4 16:23:55 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515DE21D.7040005@gmail.com> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> <515DE21D.7040005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130404140341.N99437@shell.lmi.net> > "Cannot delete : There is not enough free disk space. Delete one > or more files to free disk space, and then try again" has always made me > chuckle. I think that was Win95 (possibly NT4). During Windoze 3.10 installation, SMARTDRV was installed. NO, you did not get a choice, nor configuration options, and it was set for write cacheing. "Sector not found during write\nRetry?" (during one of the last couple of files) Normally, it could be easily handled by "Ignore", noting which file write had failed, renaming that file SECTORS.BAD and then manually installing THAT file. But, Because wrtite caching was enabled, SMARTDRV had long ago told the installer that the write had been done. SUCCESSFULLY Therefore, "Ignore" was not an option. "Abort" was not an option. "Fail" was not an option. Control could be regained by power cycling the machine. But, because the mode of write caching included re-arranged writes, the DIRectory entries had not been written. Power cycling brought you all the way back to before INSTALL. SSTOR and SPINRITE could not find the drive fault! But, it happened consistently, and at the same point. Solution was to copy some dummy files to the disk, so that the fault would occur at a different part of the INSTALL. I encountered it during BETA of 3.10. I contacted Beta Support. They said, "well, it's a hardware problem; we don't care about it." I pointed out to them that a "hardware problem" during delayed writes was a MAJOR disaster, and that we rely on the OS to enable us to recover or work around them. "We absolutely need to have a way to disable delayed writes." "Hardware fault; not our problem." They dropped me from subsequent Beta programs, probably due to my bad attitude (MS "Beta" wanted CHEERLEADERS, NOT faultfinders! For MY Beta testing, I hired a guy who could break a crowbar in a sandbox) Not much later, MS had to replace all of 6.00 with 6.2x due ENTIRELY to SMARTDRV delayed writes. (NO, it was NEVER a problem with "compression". EVERY error being blamed on "compression" was delayed writes." (cf. Swaine(Infoworld)/Gates flames)) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 16:32:47 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 17:32:47 -0400 Subject: VAX4000-100A with P-cache problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 4, 2013, at 4:40 PM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello. > I have a VAX4000-100A system, that's fully working, > except for a strange error on boot that notify about > errors in the P-cache. VMS starts up, but again it notify > that P-cache will be disabled due to high error-rate. > Probably the CPU has been damaged somehow, or it's malfunctioning > (if I'm not wrong the P-cache is integrated inside the CPU). > Anybody ever had a similar problem? > Could it be possible to find a replacement CPU somewhere, > not at terrible cost? You'd be looking for a KA52 CPU board. I imagine the 100A is upwards compatible with the KA53 and KA54 (faster versions of the same NVAX-based board), which may or may not be easier to find. The KA52 is DEC part 54-21797-01; it's also the same as the MicroVAX 3100/90 board. There's one on eBay here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/140880933550 $275 or best offer (good bet if you're in the US). The NVAX has pretty much everything integrated in the one chip, and the P-cache is its tiny 8K first-level cache; you'd have to replace the entire CPU, at which point you might as well just replace the motherboard. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 4 19:58:54 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 20:58:54 -0400 Subject: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> Message-ID: <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/04/13 9:03 AM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >>>> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >>>> being worth the price we are charged for them... >>> >>> >>> Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> >>> Good one! >>> >>> g. >> >> I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? >> ;) > > Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you > paid for it new. :) The way to buy Macs is refurb/used. Will save a fortune, and you get the same great hardware. --Toby > > g. > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Apr 4 20:25:43 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 21:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Miniterm 1205S Message-ID: Does anyone have a service manual or schematics for the Computer Devices Miniterm 1205S? Thanks. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 4 20:32:19 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 20:32:19 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515E29A3.1070609@pico-systems.com> From: Brian Roth To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" Subject: VAX 11/780 Message-ID: <1365090232.96105.YahooMailNeo at web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I just recently acquired a very nearly complete VAX 11/780. I will be spending the next few months in a partial tear down and cleaning and with luck, hopefully little money to get it operational again. I am looking for whatever spare parts I can find for the VAX and its TU78 tape drive. I have plenty of spare drives and such. One thing I am in need of is a console boot floppy and whatever diags I can find on floppy for it. Also, I do have a hobbyist license but I would like to get an early version of VMS to run on it if I can find a tape. Holy moly! Amazing! Well, I used to know the 780 pretty well, but didn't save anything from the two I was manager of. The biggest problem I might imagine is getting the LSI 11 to boot off the floppy drive. I suspect original floppies may have deteriorated to the point they won't read. Higher-level diags can be booted from tape, but there were some low-level diags like control store diags that could only be run from the LSI 11. I believe the machine could actually CREATE a new diag floppy from the diag tape, though, so if you can find good blank floppies you could recreate the diags. Hmm, refresh my memory, the TU77 was the 800/1600 BPI drive and the TU78 was the 1600/6250 drive? I'm pretty familiar with both. We had an early TU77, and went through about 13 mod kits on it to get it to stop melting tapes on the heads. It really flew through tape, though. Good luck restoring this machine! Jon From xmechanic at landcomp.net Thu Apr 4 21:01:04 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 20:01:04 -0600 Subject: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> On 4/4/13 6:58 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 04/04/13 9:03 AM, geneb wrote: >> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> >>>>> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >>>>> being worth the price we are charged for them... >>>> >>>> >>>> Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! >>>> >>>> Good one! >>>> >>>> g. >>> >>> I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? >>> ;) >> >> Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you >> paid for it new. :) > > The way to buy Macs is refurb/used. Will save a fortune, and you get the > same great hardware. > > --Toby I can attest to that! Bought my Mac-Pro off E-Bay almost 2 years ago for $650 + shipping. It's a first generation Intel (2006), and runs everything I can throw at it, plus Windows XP Pro in a virtual machine on a second screen for stuff that just won't work on OSX. I have had pretty much *zero* problems with it, and compared to all the windoze boxes I've owned, that's saying a lot! Only thing I've done is add a couple extra drives and more memory. With a pair of Intel Xeon dual-cores at 2.0 Ghz, it's pretty snappy. ;) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 4 21:27:59 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 22:27:59 -0400 Subject: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/04/13 10:01 PM, Dave Land wrote: > On 4/4/13 6:58 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 04/04/13 9:03 AM, geneb wrote: >>> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>> >>>>>> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >>>>>> being worth the price we are charged for them... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! >>>>> >>>>> Good one! >>>>> >>>>> g. >>>> >>>> I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? >>>> ;) >>> >>> Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you >>> paid for it new. :) >> >> The way to buy Macs is refurb/used. Will save a fortune, and you get the >> same great hardware. >> >> --Toby > > I can attest to that! Bought my Mac-Pro off E-Bay almost 2 years ago for > $650 + shipping. It's a first generation Intel (2006), and runs In 2011, I got my 2009, 8 x 3GHz core Mac Pro for half Apple's *refurb* price (ebay again). Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* dual processor Mac G5 workstations. --Toby > everything I can throw at it, plus Windows XP Pro in a virtual machine > on a second screen for stuff that just won't work on OSX. I have had > pretty much *zero* problems with it, and compared to all the windoze > boxes I've owned, that's saying a lot! Only thing I've done is add a > couple extra drives and more memory. With a pair of Intel Xeon > dual-cores at 2.0 Ghz, it's pretty snappy. ;) > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 4 21:29:04 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 22:29:04 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515E29A3.1070609@pico-systems.com> References: <515E29A3.1070609@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <515E36F0.5040101@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/04/13 9:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > From: Brian Roth > To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" > Subject: VAX 11/780 > Message-ID: > <1365090232.96105.YahooMailNeo at web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > I just recently acquired a very nearly complete VAX 11/780. I will > be spending the next few months in a partial tear down and cleaning > and with luck, hopefully little money to get it operational again. I > ... > > Good luck restoring this machine! Seconded. I hope you will blog/document the whole process. I own an 11/750 but haven't started restoring it. --Toby > > Jon > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 4 21:43:28 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 22:43:28 -0400 Subject: English's irregularities - Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515E3A50.3000802@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/04/13 1:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> A little stupid.. I know about the rules for appending an S in the right place, I just >> can't seem to master them. >>> I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then >>> I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks >>> about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple >>> pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin >>> of a single CPU compatible with something... > > English has inconsistent rules, and freely breaks them. > It seems to have more IRREGULAR conjugations, declensions, and plurals. > Can anyone explain why the 'I' is after the 'E' in "WEIRD"? > It's claimed that fully 25% of words break the I-before-E rule: https://www.quora.com/Grammar/What-are-the-trickiest-rules-in-English-grammar/answer/Caroline-Lee-4 --Toby From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 21:49:52 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 22:49:52 -0400 Subject: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > In 2011, I got my 2009, 8 x 3GHz core Mac Pro for half Apple's *refurb* > price (ebay again). Nice. > Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* > dual processor Mac G5 workstations. I used to see a lot of G3s being discarded, but those dried up a couple of years back. Right now, I see more G4s than anything else, but G5s are definitely being left out on the curbs around here (Columbus, OH). Intel Macs are still going for hundreds in these parts, even old ones. University surplus pretty much doesn't have any priced under $500 and they all sell quickly. -ethan From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 4 22:15:17 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 23:15:17 -0400 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/04/13 10:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> In 2011, I got my 2009, 8 x 3GHz core Mac Pro for half Apple's *refurb* >> price (ebay again). > > Nice. > >> Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* >> dual processor Mac G5 workstations. > > I used to see a lot of G3s being discarded, but those dried up a > couple of years back. Right now, I see more G4s than anything else, > but G5s are definitely being left out on the curbs around here Sad. Great machines. A G5 is my main home desktop/dev box. Runs like a dream. --T > (Columbus, OH). > > Intel Macs are still going for hundreds in these parts, even old ones. > University surplus pretty much doesn't have any priced under $500 and > they all sell quickly. > > -ethan > From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Apr 4 22:47:00 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 23:47:00 -0400 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <106B557759F54E88B0E473EF7429366B@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 11:15 PM Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering > On 04/04/13 10:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Toby Thain >> wrote: >>> In 2011, I got my 2009, 8 x 3GHz core Mac Pro for half Apple's *refurb* >>> price (ebay again). >> >> Nice. >> >>> Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got >>> *two* >>> dual processor Mac G5 workstations. >> >> I used to see a lot of G3s being discarded, but those dried up a >> couple of years back. Right now, I see more G4s than anything else, >> but G5s are definitely being left out on the curbs around here G5 towers or the buggy imacs? I pretty much ended my Mac collecting at the last machine that would boot OS 9.x (a G4 MDD), but I would rescue a G5 tower just because I like the case. Most of the G3's have been recycled, G4's are being dumped lately so I expect G5s to be dumped soon as well (especially since Apple OS has not supported PPC in a long time). From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Apr 4 23:24:46 2013 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 21:24:46 -0700 Subject: Manuals needed... Message-ID: <20130404212446.31f037c5@asrock.bcwi.net> I'm looking for operating manuals and user guides for the following software products: ManagePro 2.0 (Avantos Performance Systems, circa 1993) Siebel 3.0 Siebel 98 Originals are best, but copies are O.K. Marketing, sales literature or brochures for the above products might be of interest. A bounty is available! Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 5 00:15:35 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 01:15:35 -0400 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <106B557759F54E88B0E473EF7429366B@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> <106B557759F54E88B0E473EF7429366B@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <515E5DF7.4020407@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/04/13 11:47 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 11:15 PM > Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: > Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering > > >> On 04/04/13 10:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Toby Thain >>> wrote: >>>> In 2011, I got my 2009, 8 x 3GHz core Mac Pro for half Apple's *refurb* >>>> price (ebay again). >>> >>> Nice. >>> >>>> Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got >>>> *two* >>>> dual processor Mac G5 workstations. >>> >>> I used to see a lot of G3s being discarded, but those dried up a >>> couple of years back. Right now, I see more G4s than anything else, >>> but G5s are definitely being left out on the curbs around here > > G5 towers or the buggy imacs? I pretty much ended my Mac collecting at > the last machine that would boot OS 9.x (a G4 MDD), but I would rescue a > G5 tower just because I like the case. > > Most of the G3's have been recycled, G4's are being dumped lately so I > expect G5s to be dumped soon as well (especially since Apple OS has not > supported PPC in a long time). Like I said, I was finding G5s in the dumpster a year ago. And about eight G4 towers. Yes the G5 case design and interior is just lovely. A warning to anyone still running them: The power supplies can be very hard to replace, so stockpile working systems and parts. --T From roe at liveblockauctions.com Thu Apr 4 10:32:45 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 09:32:45 -0600 Subject: LA120 space bar Message-ID: <515D9D1D.1010601@liveblockauctions.com> I've acquired an LA120 Decwriter 3, it's missing the space bar. Does anyone have an idea where I could find one? I'd be willing to pay a reasonable price, and will of course cover shipping. Thanks. -- Roe Peterson / Director of Research & Development O. 306.523.4005 / C. 306.501.6802 *Help Desk: 1.877.694.6100 / 306.694.6100* From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Thu Apr 4 12:15:52 2013 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 19:15:52 +0200 Subject: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is it? Message-ID: <012601ce3158$104e40d0$30eac270$@lazzerini@email.it> Is there anybody who knows what is this old chip? And where to try to find it? If it help what I know is that it used to do somenting like shift data register or Serial Shift Registers. It has a TTL level signal on its pins, it has 14 pins. You can see it named U1 in the centre of this schematic: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zqhgar4g7ib5j4z/Xerox820_FDC_Schematic.pdf Some pins are labelled on a schematics with: 1=D1, 2=D2, 3=D3, 4=D4, 10=A1, 11=A2, 12=A3, 13=A4, 14=A4, 15=ChipEnable (left to GND), 7=GND, 14=+5Vcc Thanks Enrico From roe at liveblockauctions.com Thu Apr 4 15:19:41 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:19:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: Qbus identification In-Reply-To: <7635DB63-5D5D-4BA4-B5D5-F7DA22A4E165@gmail.com> References: <7635DB63-5D5D-4BA4-B5D5-F7DA22A4E165@gmail.com> Message-ID: <75B18E92-9AD8-4CE3-A588-2C5B795363CC@liveblockauctions.com> On Apr 4, 2013, at 7:01 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 3, 2013, at 19:21, Roe Peterson wrote: > >> >> I'm looking at upgrading a pdp11/73 in a pdp11/23plus box to an 11/83. Is there a simple multimeter test I can do on a qbus slot to determine if it is Q/Q -- which i understand can be serpentine, or Q/CD, which are PMI capable for the 11/83 CPU. > > Easier: find the model number of your backplane here: > > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis > > If you have a BA23 or BA11-S chassis, Thanks. It's a BA11-S, the H7861 power supply is a dead giveaway. I'll install the 83 after work. AKAIK, the memory cards actually get installed _above_ the CPU, with the unibus stuff below. > you ought to be set. > > - Dave From george at rachors.com Fri Apr 5 00:29:11 2013 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 22:29:11 -0700 Subject: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I inherited a G5 tower from a non-profit org. They had retired it in favor of newer hardware. First thing I did with it was to archive their data. I was in the process of setting it up for my use. Got it personalized then went to power it on the next weekend and it wouldn't start?? No screen and an increasing fan noise?.. Was their a common problem with these? And yes I flushed the pram and tried a new battery. George Rachor george at rachors.com Bummer. Would have been a nice box. On Apr 4, 2013, at 7:27 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 04/04/13 10:01 PM, Dave Land wrote: >> On 4/4/13 6:58 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> On 04/04/13 9:03 AM, geneb wrote: >>>> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >>>>>>> being worth the price we are charged for them... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! >>>>>> >>>>>> Good one! >>>>>> >>>>>> g. >>>>> >>>>> I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? >>>>> ;) >>>> >>>> Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you >>>> paid for it new. :) >>> >>> The way to buy Macs is refurb/used. Will save a fortune, and you get the >>> same great hardware. >>> >>> --Toby >> >> I can attest to that! Bought my Mac-Pro off E-Bay almost 2 years ago for >> $650 + shipping. It's a first generation Intel (2006), and runs > > In 2011, I got my 2009, 8 x 3GHz core Mac Pro for half Apple's *refurb* price (ebay again). > > Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* dual processor Mac G5 workstations. > > --Toby > >> everything I can throw at it, plus Windows XP Pro in a virtual machine >> on a second screen for stuff that just won't work on OSX. I have had >> pretty much *zero* problems with it, and compared to all the windoze >> boxes I've owned, that's saying a lot! Only thing I've done is add a >> couple extra drives and more memory. With a pair of Intel Xeon >> dual-cores at 2.0 Ghz, it's pretty snappy. ;) >> > From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Apr 5 01:31:33 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 08:31:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) Message-ID: Hah, a thread just in time for me! Hello fellow collectors. I got the card-less carcass of a pdp-11/23 (says so on the front and back type labels) some weeks ago. This is going to be my first pdp ever so please be a bit patient with me :) It is the BA11 variety and contains a H9273 backplane, which as far as I could find out is QQ-CD (consistent with your statement below). However the backplane has a sticker on it which is stamped "11/03" (?!) So what kind of CPU (or more generally, kinds of boards) am I looking for to populate this puppy? I've already done some reading on DEC stuff from bitsavers and gleaned that in order to make it an 11/23, it would have to hold either an M8186 (KDF11-A) or an M8189 (KDF11-B) processor. As the M8186 only comes in a dual slot form factor, it clearly can't make use of the CD interconnect on the backplane. The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful" use of the CD lanes. What are these intended for anyway (I was thinking of some sort of PMI predecessor, probably wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine? Also, are there any ressources online about the Q-22 upgrade? I might need do do that because I already was promised a 512kw MOS memory board by another German collector. TIA, yours sincerely Arno Pete Turnbull wrote: Indeed, or as Jerome suggested, looking at the configuration of the cards may give you a clue. So would the type of box: if it's a 3U-high (5.25") grey-fronted-metal-panel rack-mount box with three toggle switches, it's a BA11-N or BA11-S, which have straight backplanes (and are all QQ-CD), if it's a small tabletop box or a 2U (3.5") it's a BA11-V (tabletop) or BA11-M (2U) which have serpentine backplanes, and if it's a floor-standing microPDP-11 (or microVAX) box or a chassis with four or six pushbuttons on the front, it's a BA23 box which is QQ-CD in the top slots and serpentine below. Or count the card slots. All 9-slot backplanes are straight. 8-slot and 13-slot are mixed (for microPDP-11 and microVAX). Anything else is serpentine. BA11-M and BA11-V boxes are relatively uncommon. If it's a BA11-N, although the backplane is 18-bit, it's very easy to upgrade to 22-bit. >> -- which I understand can be serpentine, All Q-Q backplanes are serpentine, and all straight backplanes are QQ-CD. The only odd one is the hex-high DDV11-B, which is a serpentine backplane in the ABCD positions and not bussed at all (except for power in the standard contact positions) in EF - it's meant for custom wiring. Of course we're assuming it's a DEC box with a DEC backplane. A Plessey backplane, for example, might be different, but you'd probably know if it was non-DEC, because it's pretty rare to find DEC's dark green connectors on anything non-DEC. Plessey and GEC ones, again for example, are white. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 02:17:00 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 00:17:00 -0700 Subject: Commodore PET 6540 ROMs? Message-ID: <515E7A6C.5040401@gmail.com> This is a stretch, but I figured I'd ask: anyone have any spare 6540-series PET ROMs lying around? After diagnosing a number of other failures, Ialmost have my (very beat up) chicklet-keyboard PET working, but it looks like the -026 ROM (at F800-FFFF) has gone south -- it has a few corrupted bits here and there. It looks like adapters to fit standard 2716s are available to build, but before I invest time and/or money in one of those I thought I'd ask around. Thanks as always, Josh From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 5 02:20:01 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 03:20:01 -0400 Subject: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <6FCFB5BC19FA40A0A99DB6E00A90C4AE@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Rachor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 1:29 AM Subject: Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering >I inherited a G5 tower from a non-profit org. They had retired it in favor >of newer hardware. > > First thing I did with it was to archive their data. > > I was in the process of setting it up for my use. Got it personalized > then went to power it on the next weekend and it wouldn't start?? No > screen and an increasing fan noise?.. > Was their a common problem with these? And yes I flushed the pram and > tried a new battery. > > George Rachor > george at rachors.com > Bad capacitors, bad power supplies, leaking coolant destroying motherboards (on the water cooled models). From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 5 02:27:28 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 00:27:28 -0700 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> Message-ID: <60661594-94ED-4C44-87F2-D4E89BC4E369@aracnet.com> On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:03 AM, geneb wrote: > Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you paid for it new. :) It depends on what you do. My late-2010 Mac Pro was definitely worth what I paid for it. Then again, I use it for the latest version of photoshop. Zane From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 02:38:23 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 07:38:23 +0000 Subject: English's irregularities - Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <515E3A50.3000802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Toby Thain" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 05/04/2013 03:43:28 Subject: English's irregularities - Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled >On 04/04/13 1:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>>A little stupid.. I know about the rules for appending an S in the >>>right place, I just >>>can't seem to master them. >>>>I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then >>>>I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks >>>>about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple >>>>pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin >>>>of a single CPU compatible with something... >> >>English has inconsistent rules, and freely breaks them. >>It seems to have more IRREGULAR conjugations, declensions, and >>plurals. >>Can anyone explain why the 'I' is after the 'E' in "WEIRD"? >> > >It's claimed that fully 25% of words break the I-before-E rule: > >https://www.quora.com/Grammar/What-are-the-trickiest-rules-in-English-grammar/answer/Caroline-Lee-4 > >--Toby Not sure if you can see this in West Pondia..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duqlZXiIZqA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 03:07:24 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 08:07:24 +0000 Subject: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is it? In-Reply-To: <515e6c70.246a320a.0b4c.ffffe4c5SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Enrico Lazzerini" To: cctech at classiccmp.org Sent: 04/04/2013 18:15:52 Subject: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is it? >Is there anybody who knows what is this old chip? And where to try to >find >it? I believe that its a 74S288 which is 256 bit PROM (32x8) bit prom. So even if you find one you need to know its contents. Look for an application note for the 1297. > >If it help what I know is that it used to do somenting like shift data >register or Serial Shift Registers. > Often used for state decoding. From searching the web I can see that there is an FE2100 which is designed to replace the discrete logic on a FDC board and it mentions the 74S288.. >It has a TTL level signal on its pins, it has 14 pins. You can see it >named >U1 in the centre of this schematic: > >https://www.dropbox.com/s/zqhgar4g7ib5j4z/Xerox820_FDC_Schematic.pdf > > > >Some pins are labelled on a schematics with: > >1=D1, 2=D2, 3=D3, 4=D4, > >10=A1, 11=A2, 12=A3, 13=A4, 14=A4, > >15=ChipEnable (left to GND), > >7=GND, > >14=+5Vcc > > these match the chip outline in my Texas TTL manual (there are 4 more data outs which are unused in this application) > >Thanks > >Enrico > Sorry not 100% of needed info Dave G4UGM From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 05:41:32 2013 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:41:32 +0200 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: >>> Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* >>> dual processor Mac G5 workstations. Yeah. In US ;( I wish I could get a G5 for free here. Or at least in affordable price. -- Ola Hughson From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 06:47:43 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:47:43 +0100 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 11:41, Ola Hughson wrote: >>>> Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* >>>> dual processor Mac G5 workstations. > > Yeah. In US ;( > I wish I could get a G5 for free here. Or at least in affordable price. I don't know where "here" is, but my dual-proc PCI-X G5 was given to me almost exactly a year ago - Easter 2012 - by a friend. I rarely use it & am considering eBaying it off. I wanted to make a server of it, but it only takes 2 drives internally, despite its considerable physical size, & any power/space/cost gains would be offset if I attached loads of external drives to it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 06:54:29 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 04:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515E36F0.5040101@telegraphics.com.au> References: <515E29A3.1070609@pico-systems.com> <515E36F0.5040101@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1365162869.26021.YahooMailNeo@web141401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ >From: Toby Thain >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 10:29 PM >Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 ? >Seconded. I hope you will blog/document the whole process. I own an >11/750 but haven't started restoring it. >--Toby ?I hope to do exactly that. Hopefully this will be the year for my new building to house everything. Brian. From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 07:02:59 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 05:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515E29A3.1070609@pico-systems.com> References: <515E29A3.1070609@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1365163379.53659.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ >From: Jon Elson >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 9:32 PM >Subject: VAX 11/780 >>From: Brian Roth >>To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" >>Subject: VAX 11/780 >>Message-ID: >>??? <1365090232.96105.YahooMailNeo at web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>? I just recently acquired a very nearly complete VAX 11/780. I will >>? be spending the next few months in a partial tear down and cleaning >>? and with luck, hopefully little money to get it operational again. I >>? am looking for whatever spare parts I can find for the VAX and its ?>> TU78 tape drive. I have plenty of spare drives and such. One thing I >>? am in need of is a console boot floppy and whatever diags I can find >>? on floppy for it. Also, I do have a hobbyist license but I would >>? like to get an early version of VMS to run on it if I can find a tape. >Holy moly!? Amazing!? Well, I used to know the 780 pretty well, but didn't save anything >from the two I was manager of.? The biggest problem I might imagine is getting the >LSI 11 to boot off the floppy drive.? I suspect original floppies may have deteriorated >to the point they won't read.? Higher-level diags can be booted from tape, but there >were some low-level diags like control store diags that could only be run from the >LSI 11.? I believe the machine could actually CREATE a new diag floppy from the >diag tape, though, so if you can find good blank floppies you could recreate the >diags. >Hmm, refresh my memory, the TU77 was the 800/1600 BPI drive and the >TU78 was the 1600/6250 drive?? >Jon I remember seeing those diag floppies years ago and there was quite a few. Unfortunately there was no media with this machine, not even a console floppy. I'm working on locating those now. Yes, the TU78 is 1600/6250. Brian. From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 07:05:51 2013 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:05:51 +0200 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: 2013/4/5 Liam Proven : > On 5 April 2013 11:41, Ola Hughson wrote: >>>>> Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* >>>>> dual processor Mac G5 workstations. >> >> Yeah. In US ;( >> I wish I could get a G5 for free here. Or at least in affordable price. > > I don't know where "here" is Warsaw, Poland. -- Ola Hughson From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Apr 5 07:25:45 2013 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 08:25:45 -0400 Subject: RCA COSMAC Microkit Message-ID: <6350d49f$33d954e5$74bd3687$@com> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/RCA/COSMAC/ Photos of RCA COSMAC Microkit with 1801 card. Note the chip date of the TC 1085 on the processor card, which is the earlier version of the CDP 1801 (Microtutor), has a silk screen date of late 1974. Compare: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/RCA/COSMAC/RCA_GPA-3901822_front.jpg (Microkit) http://www.decodesystems.com/cosmac/mt5.jpg (Microtutor) Does anyone have a COSMAC Microkit user manual? I have downloaded the docs for the COSMAC chip from Bitsavers, but there is no reference to the earlier Microkit in this doc. The only printed reference to the Microkit I have is http://www.vintagecomputer.net/cisc367/EDN_Microcomputer_Systems_Directory.p df EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II 1975 This appears to be a supplement publication to the EDN Journal (?) I can use the Microtutor manual at least to get started. Bill From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Apr 5 07:42:21 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 08:42:21 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515EC6AD.7030209@verizon.net> On 04/05/2013 02:31 AM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > Hah, a thread just in time for me! > Hello fellow collectors. > > I got the card-less carcass of a pdp-11/23 (says so on the front and back type labels) some weeks ago. > This is going to be my first pdp ever so please be a bit patient with me :) > > It is the BA11 variety and contains a H9273 backplane, which as far as I could find out is QQ-CD > (consistent with your statement below). > However the backplane has a sticker on it which is stamped "11/03" (?!) Look uo the backplan to find out its configuration. > > So what kind of CPU (or more generally, kinds of boards) am I looking for to populate this puppy? > I've already done some reading on DEC stuff from bitsavers and gleaned that in order to make it an > 11/23, it would have to hold either an M8186 (KDF11-A) or an M8189 (KDF11-B) processor. Also read the fine manual for the quad width 11/23 you will find there are jumpers/switches for use in AB/CD backplanes. Most quad width cards also conform to that. > As the M8186 only comes in a dual slot form factor, it clearly can't make use of the CD > interconnect on the backplane. The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured > for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another > environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful" use of the CD lanes. CD lines are needed for RL11 controller (two board RL01/02 controller). > What are these intended for anyway (I was thinking of some sort of PMI predecessor, probably > wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine? > > Also, are there any ressources online about the Q-22 upgrade? I might need do do that because I > already was promised a 512kw MOS memory board by another German collector. And if all else fails you can replace the backplane with one that is AB/AB as I've done that many times. Allison > TIA, yours sincerely > Arno > > > > Pete Turnbull wrote: > Indeed, or as Jerome suggested, looking at the configuration of the > cards may give you a clue. So would the type of box: if it's a 3U-high > (5.25") grey-fronted-metal-panel rack-mount box with three toggle > switches, it's a BA11-N or BA11-S, which have straight backplanes (and > are all QQ-CD), if it's a small tabletop box or a 2U (3.5") it's a > BA11-V (tabletop) or BA11-M (2U) which have serpentine backplanes, and > if it's a floor-standing microPDP-11 (or microVAX) box or a chassis with > four or six pushbuttons on the front, it's a BA23 box which is QQ-CD in > the top slots and serpentine below. > > Or count the card slots. All 9-slot backplanes are straight. 8-slot > and 13-slot are mixed (for microPDP-11 and microVAX). Anything else is > serpentine. > > BA11-M and BA11-V boxes are relatively uncommon. If it's a BA11-N, > although the backplane is 18-bit, it's very easy to upgrade to 22-bit. > >>> -- which I understand can be serpentine, > All Q-Q backplanes are serpentine, and all straight backplanes are > QQ-CD. The only odd one is the hex-high DDV11-B, which is a serpentine > backplane in the ABCD positions and not bussed at all (except for power > in the standard contact positions) in EF - it's meant for custom wiring. > > Of course we're assuming it's a DEC box with a DEC backplane. A > Plessey backplane, for example, might be different, but you'd probably > know if it was non-DEC, because it's pretty rare to find DEC's dark > green connectors on anything non-DEC. Plessey and GEC ones, again for > example, are white. > From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Apr 5 07:43:50 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 08:43:50 -0400 Subject: RCA COSMAC Microkit In-Reply-To: <6350d49f$33d954e5$74bd3687$@com> References: <6350d49f$33d954e5$74bd3687$@com> Message-ID: <515EC706.7060804@verizon.net> On 04/05/2013 08:25 AM, B. Degnan wrote: > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/RCA/COSMAC/ > Photos of RCA COSMAC Microkit with 1801 card. > Note the chip date of the TC 1085 on the processor card, which is the > earlier version of the CDP 1801 (Microtutor), has a silk screen date of > late 1974. > > Compare: > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/RCA/COSMAC/RCA_GPA-3901822_front.jpg > (Microkit) > http://www.decodesystems.com/cosmac/mt5.jpg (Microtutor) > > Does anyone have a COSMAC Microkit user manual? I have downloaded the docs > for the COSMAC chip from Bitsavers, but there is no reference to the > earlier Microkit in this doc. I believe its on the net but not there. There is a yahoo COSMAC users group. > The only printed reference to the Microkit I have is > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/cisc367/EDN_Microcomputer_Systems_Directory.p > df > EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II 1975 > This appears to be a supplement publication to the EDN Journal (?) > > I can use the Microtutor manual at least to get started. > Allison From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 07:46:34 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 08:46:34 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2013, at 2:31, "Arno Kletzander" wrote: > Hah, a thread just in time for me! > Hello fellow collectors. > > I got the card-less carcass of a pdp-11/23 (says so on the front and back type labels) some weeks ago. > This is going to be my first pdp ever so please be a bit patient with me :) > > It is the BA11 variety and contains a H9273 backplane, which as far as I could find out is QQ-CD > (consistent with your statement below). > However the backplane has a sticker on it which is stamped "11/03" (?!) > > So what kind of CPU (or more generally, kinds of boards) am I looking for to populate this puppy? > I've already done some reading on DEC stuff from bitsavers and gleaned that in order to make it an > 11/23, it would have to hold either an M8186 (KDF11-A) or an M8189 (KDF11-B) processor. The H9273 is perfectly compatible with an 11/23 CPU; there is a jumper you can set for 18-bit use. Obviously, though, turning it into a 22-bit backplane is preferable. Fortunately, that's pretty easy. > As the M8186 only comes in a dual slot form factor, it clearly can't make use of the CD > interconnect on the backplane. The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured > for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another > environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful" use of the CD lanes. Correct. The Qbus PDP-11s only used the CD lane for PMI (or custom logic, if you had that). I'd get the M8189 if you can, because it saves you the hassle of finding boot ROM and serial cards for the console. > What are these intended for anyway (I was thinking of some sort of PMI predecessor, probably > wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine? For an 11/23, those lanes will just go unused. It's not so bad, really; you have to try pretty hard to fill up 9 slots. > Also, are there any ressources online about the Q-22 upgrade? I might need do do that because I > already was promised a 512kw MOS memory board by another German collector. The 11/23 processor manual will tell you which pins are BDAL18:21. You just need to bus those together. The H9273 doesn't have wire wrap stakes out the back, so you'll have to solder, but it's not very hard at all. If it's in a box labelled 11/23, though, check to make sure someone hasn't already performed the modification. - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 07:56:29 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:56:29 +0100 Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled] In-Reply-To: References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 4 April 2013 20:16, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Mouse wrote: >> >> > English has inconsistent [spelling] rules, and freely breaks them. >> >> Indeed. In my more cynical moments I sometimes feel it has more rules >> than it does words. Consider `laughter'. Now prepend an `s'. Or >> change the `l' to a `d'. Or take `bough' and append a `t' to it. Or >> consider all the ways to pronouce `ough': bough, rough, through, >> though, cough, ought... > > I'm fond of this poem by Rosemary Chen, I guess what's true for Asians > is also true for the Dutch: > > Enough Is Enough > > Four letters cause me disillusion > OUGH makes phonetic confusion > Four simple letters with four pronunciations > Make learning English tough for Asians. > > OUGH has no logic, no rule > Or rhyme or rhythm; it will fool > All who struggle to master expression > English may cause thorough depression. > > I pour some water in a trough > I sneeze and splutter, then I cough. > And with a rough hewn bough > My muddy paddy fields I plough. > > Loaves of warm bread in a row > Crispy crusts and doughy dough. > Now, my final duty to do > And then my chores will all be through. > > My lament is finished, even though > Learning this word game is really slow. > It is so difficult, it's very rough > Learning English is really tough. > > If a trough was a truff > And a plough was a pluff > If dough was duff > And though was thuff > If cough was cuff > And through was thruff > I would not pretend, or try to bluff, > But of OUGH I've had enough The ultimate test of English pronunciation is the Chaos, by Gerard Nolst Trenit?: http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j17/caos.php It's quite famous - it's the verse that starts Dearest creature in creation Studying English pronunciation, I will teach you in my verse Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse. I recommend it - memorising it would be useful for both students and native speakers who have problems with the sounds of words. Its internal rhyme and scansion provide many useful hints, although as a century-old piece, sadly a whole bunch of its words are now obsolete. I am perfectly OK with not knowing how to correctly say "topsail" or "studding-sail". :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 07:58:33 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:58:33 +0100 Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now In-Reply-To: References: <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 4 April 2013 21:40, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > English has inconsistent [spelling] rules, and freely breaks them. >> >> Indeed. In my more cynical moments I sometimes feel it has more rules >> than it does words. Consider `laughter'. Now prepend an `s'. Or > > That reminds me of a sentence that I think is quoted in one of Martin > Gardner's books : > > 'Show the bold Prussian that praised slaughet, slaugher brings rout. > Teach this slaughter-lover his fall nears' > > Yo can delete the intial letter of all the words to form a new sentence. > > Incidentalyl, for the 'i before e' rule, I always liked : > > 'E before E except after C. We live in a weird society' :-) > > >> > "I disconnected the speaker on all of the computers in the lab." does >> > not imply that they share a speaker. >> >> Strictly speaking, the grammatical construct does imply that; in the >> case of that particular sentence that implication is overridden by the >> semantic unlikelihood of having all the lab's computers sharing a >> single speaker. >> >> > Should I have said that I disconnected the "speakerS"? or maybe "the >> > speaker on EACH computer"? >> >> Either one would fix it, yes. > > But 'I disconencted the speakers of al lthe computers in the lab' could > mean multipel speakers for each machine. That might have been comprehensible if not so typo-ridden that it was word-salad. That was one message, Tony, where it would have been worth your time to go slowly and carefully. It's also not threaded for me. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 08:00:29 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:00:29 +0100 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4 April 2013 22:21, David Riley wrote: > But from > the website, you wouldn't have a clue what they really were. Apart from the bit that says: WELCOME TO BAYNESVILLE ELECTRONICS! LOCATED IN TOWSON MD. 1631 E. JOPPA RD. BALTIMORE MD. 21286 TEL (410)-823-0082 FAX (410)-321-1912 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 08:07:10 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:07:10 +0100 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 13:05, Ola Hughson wrote: > 2013/4/5 Liam Proven : >> On 5 April 2013 11:41, Ola Hughson wrote: >>>>>> Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* >>>>>> dual processor Mac G5 workstations. >>> >>> Yeah. In US ;( >>> I wish I could get a G5 for free here. Or at least in affordable price. >> >> I don't know where "here" is > > Warsaw, Poland. Aha! I have not visited - only Krak?w, a beautiful city. Well, G5s seem to be down to around ?150 or so in Britain now and surface shipping would be fairly cheap. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 08:08:19 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:08:19 +0100 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Identifications_sought_=3A=AC=29?= Message-ID: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/04/gates_allen_reshoot_photo/ ? One of the most iconic photos from the history of Microsoft, featuring a lanky young Bill Gates perched next to his coding mentor (the way he tells it) Paul Allen, has been recreated at Seattle's Living Computing Museum. [...] Among the systems still surrounding them are an Apple II with twin drives and an ancient monitor in the top left of the picture, with a Commodore Pet below Bill Gates. Readers who can identify the other systems, please let us know in Comments. ? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 08:19:07 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:19:07 -0400 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Sad. Great machines. A G5 is my main home desktop/dev box. Runs like a > dream. > One of my friends' father has been using a third gen G3 iMac for browsing the web since they first came out. It was all he really needed. Last December the web site he mainly uses switched to HTML5 so the ancient browser he had on there couldn't render the site properly. So my friend "upgraded" him to a G5 iMac, that's five years old. Runs everything his dad needs again and is comparatively fast. Note the old G3 iMac is still running fine, it just can't run the latest browser. Along with my collection of old Macs, I have a beige G3 and an AGP G4 that still run fine, after some regular maintenance. From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 08:52:02 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:52:02 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2013, at 9:00, Liam Proven wrote: > On 4 April 2013 22:21, David Riley wrote: > >> But from >> the website, you wouldn't have a clue what they really were. > > Apart from the bit that says: > > WELCOME TO BAYNESVILLE ELECTRONICS! > LOCATED IN TOWSON MD. > 1631 E. JOPPA RD. BALTIMORE MD. 21286 > TEL (410)-823-0082 FAX (410)-321-1912 I suppose I should clarify that over here, "electronics store" usually means a place where you buy a stereo, not a place where you buy diodes. That's what I meant by "what they really were". - Dave From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 09:05:49 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:05:49 -0500 Subject: English's irregularities - Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: References: <515E3A50.3000802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Good looking show. I'll have to see if we have that on BBC America. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 2:38 AM, Dave wrote: > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Toby Thain" > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Sent: 05/04/2013 03:43:28 > Subject: English's irregularities - Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 > is now obsolete, will be dismantled > >> On 04/04/13 1:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> >>>> A little stupid.. I know about the rules for appending an S in the >>>> right place, I just >>>> can't seem to master them. >>>> >>>>> I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then >>>>> I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks >>>>> about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple >>>>> pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin >>>>> of a single CPU compatible with something... >>>>> >>>> >>> English has inconsistent rules, and freely breaks them. >>> It seems to have more IRREGULAR conjugations, declensions, and plurals. >>> Can anyone explain why the 'I' is after the 'E' in "WEIRD"? >>> >>> >> It's claimed that fully 25% of words break the I-before-E rule: >> >> https://www.quora.com/Grammar/**What-are-the-trickiest-rules-** >> in-English-grammar/answer/**Caroline-Lee-4 >> >> --Toby >> > > Not sure if you can see this in West Pondia..... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=duqlZXiIZqA > > > > From saquinn624 at aol.com Fri Apr 5 09:07:33 2013 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 10:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: English spelling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0001E0D1B6966-E34-1300C@Webmail-d120.sysops.aol.com> ************************************** On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > A little stupid.. I know about the rules for appending an S in the right place, I just > can't seem to master them. > > I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then > > I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks > > about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple > > pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin > > of a single CPU compatible with something... English has inconsistent rules, and freely breaks them. It seems to have more IRREGULAR conjugations, declensions, and plurals. Can anyone explain why the 'I' is after the 'E' in "WEIRD"? "I disconnected the speaker on all of the computers in the lab." does not imply that they share a speaker. Should I have said that I disconnected the "speakerS"? or maybe "the speaker on EACH computer"? And, in this particular example, "pin compatible" (or "pin-compatible") is a commonly used adjective that is not plural, no matter how many pins the device has. The object noun in the speaker sentence is the speaker, therefore if you disconnected more than one it would be "speakers" regardless of how many computers they were connected to. Same goes for the pin-compatible CPUs - the noun is the CPU, therefore pin remains singular (even though you're talking about multiple pins on multiple CPUs). Same logic that gives us "attorneys-general" and "gins and tonic" and a whole lot of confusion. As for weird, I just tell the students it's a weird word. Was it Bernard Shaw that threw away the rules he considered pointless and archaic? I know about cummings and capitalization, but that does little to make his poems easier to read or more comprehensible. From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 09:17:07 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:17:07 -0500 Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled] In-Reply-To: References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: That is fantastic. I've never seen that before. It also illustrates how the language is somewhat confounded by regional accents as well. Over here in the US at least, the words "parquet" (pronounced par-kay) and "khaki" (kak-ee) according to the verse rhyme, but here do not. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 7:56 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 4 April 2013 20:16, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Mouse > wrote: > >> > >> > English has inconsistent [spelling] rules, and freely breaks them. > >> > >> Indeed. In my more cynical moments I sometimes feel it has more rules > >> than it does words. Consider `laughter'. Now prepend an `s'. Or > >> change the `l' to a `d'. Or take `bough' and append a `t' to it. Or > >> consider all the ways to pronouce `ough': bough, rough, through, > >> though, cough, ought... > > > > I'm fond of this poem by Rosemary Chen, I guess what's true for Asians > > is also true for the Dutch: > > > > Enough Is Enough > > > > Four letters cause me disillusion > > OUGH makes phonetic confusion > > Four simple letters with four pronunciations > > Make learning English tough for Asians. > > > > OUGH has no logic, no rule > > Or rhyme or rhythm; it will fool > > All who struggle to master expression > > English may cause thorough depression. > > > > I pour some water in a trough > > I sneeze and splutter, then I cough. > > And with a rough hewn bough > > My muddy paddy fields I plough. > > > > Loaves of warm bread in a row > > Crispy crusts and doughy dough. > > Now, my final duty to do > > And then my chores will all be through. > > > > My lament is finished, even though > > Learning this word game is really slow. > > It is so difficult, it's very rough > > Learning English is really tough. > > > > If a trough was a truff > > And a plough was a pluff > > If dough was duff > > And though was thuff > > If cough was cuff > > And through was thruff > > I would not pretend, or try to bluff, > > But of OUGH I've had enough > > The ultimate test of English pronunciation is the Chaos, by Gerard > Nolst Trenit?: > > http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j17/caos.php > > It's quite famous - it's the verse that starts > > Dearest creature in creation > Studying English pronunciation, > I will teach you in my verse > Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse. > > I recommend it - memorising it would be useful for both students and > native speakers who have problems with the sounds of words. Its > internal rhyme and scansion provide many useful hints, although as a > century-old piece, sadly a whole bunch of its words are now obsolete. > I am perfectly OK with not knowing how to correctly say "topsail" or > "studding-sail". :?) > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From sales at elecplus.com Fri Apr 5 09:37:12 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:37:12 -0500 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <011901ce320b$0f8beae0$2ea3c0a0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 4:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? On Apr 4, 2013, at 1:18 PM, mc68010 wrote: > [JT Computers] > > Their website http://www.jtcomputer.com/index.asp is what always made me wonder what their backstory was. It is such a generic off the shelf e-commerce site that makes them seem more like a PC servicing business not a big DEC parts shop. It really makes it look like they are a really small firm. Like two people in a office somewhere and a storage locker full of old DEC parts. I'm sure they had a website consultant build it for them. Lots of computer stores don't have a clue how to build a website, and it's easier to hire someone to make one. That someone then builds it from a template that makes it look like any other e-commerce site (as you described). Two people in an office somewhere and a storage locker (or warehouse, more likely) of computer parts is probably exactly what it is; you don't need a whole lot of staff to do what they do, and they do it fairly well. This website was poorly done; the designer did not even allow for the copyright year to be updated! You are correct, most computer parts dealers have no clue about websites. JT Components is about 5 hours from me, and I have dealt with them for years. They are honest people who seem to know what they are doing. Cindy ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3162/6224 - Release Date: 04/04/13 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 09:51:17 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:51:17 +0100 Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled] In-Reply-To: References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 15:17, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > That is fantastic. I've never seen that before. It also illustrates how the > language is somewhat confounded by regional accents as well. Over here in > the US at least, the words "parquet" (pronounced par-kay) and "khaki" > (kak-ee) according to the verse rhyme, but here do not. Geoffrey, /please/ learn to bottom-quote if at all possible. It is really disrupting to read your posts. "Parquet" and "khaki" don't rhyme in British RP either (although "khaki" is generally "car-key" here). This may be either a simple mistake, or an artefact of the fact that the piece is roughly 75-100 years old. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Apr 5 09:54:33 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:54:33 +0000 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 4/5/13 6:19 AM, "Jason McBrien" wrote: >On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Toby Thain >wrote: > >> Sad. Great machines. A G5 is my main home desktop/dev box. Runs like a >> dream. >> > > >One of my friends' father has been using a third gen G3 iMac for browsing >the web since they first came out. It was all he really needed. Last >December the web site he mainly uses switched to HTML5 so the ancient >browser he had on there couldn't render the site properly. > >So my friend "upgraded" him to a G5 iMac, that's five years old. Runs >everything his dad needs again and is comparatively fast. > >Note the old G3 iMac is still running fine, it just can't run the latest >browser. > That?s what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, but the browser is not! My family and I use dual G4 Powermacs, which are wonderful machines. But once the browser protocols migrate from what their browsers can support, they might as well be doorstops from my family's perspective. -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 10:08:20 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 11:08:20 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <515EE8E4.8070207@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 10:54 AM, Ian King wrote: > That?s what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, but the > browser is not! My family and I use dual G4 Powermacs, which are > wonderful machines. But once the browser protocols migrate from what > their browsers can support, they might as well be doorstops from my > family's perspective. -- Ian I was gonna say "fortunately there's more to the Internet than web browsing", but then I suppose for most people that's just not the case. Indeed most nontechnical people nowadays have no idea of how a computer could be useful without a web browser, or without an Internet connection. "How do you click on links?" was a question I got from a young person (but not a child) at VCF-East last year, while he was going "oooh ahhh" over my PDP-11. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 10:22:48 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:22:48 +0100 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 15:54, Ian King wrote: > On 4/5/13 6:19 AM, "Jason McBrien" wrote: > >>On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Toby Thain >>wrote: >> >>> Sad. Great machines. A G5 is my main home desktop/dev box. Runs like a >>> dream. >>> >> >> >>One of my friends' father has been using a third gen G3 iMac for browsing >>the web since they first came out. It was all he really needed. Last >>December the web site he mainly uses switched to HTML5 so the ancient >>browser he had on there couldn't render the site properly. >> >>So my friend "upgraded" him to a G5 iMac, that's five years old. Runs >>everything his dad needs again and is comparatively fast. >> >>Note the old G3 iMac is still running fine, it just can't run the latest >>browser. >> > > That? what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, but the > browser is not! My family and I use dual G4 Powermacs, which are > wonderful machines. But once the browser protocols migrate from what > their browsers can support, they might as well be doorstops from my > family's perspective. -- Ian Thanks to ClassicCmp's very own Cameron Kaiser, there's TenFourFox for PPC Mac users running Tiger, and if you're on a later G4 or G5 with Leopard, there's Aurora. Both make these older machines far more practical today. http://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/ http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/43362/aurorafox OS X 10.4 has quite low hardware requirements - it runs fine on well-specced G3 Macs. But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might expect. I think a gigaHertz-class machine really is the entry level these days. A good fast high-spec 500-750MHz machine can be usable but it will be a little laggy and require some patience. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 10:33:47 2013 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:33:47 +0200 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: 2013/4/5 Liam Proven : > Well, G5s seem to be down to around ?150 or so in Britain now and > surface shipping would be fairly cheap. In a specific definition of "cheap". I am trying to get a box (Solaris 2.x media + manuals, sun shoebox and some other things) from UK here. I already paid half of the shipping cost (or so), but I cannot pay more now. (As in, a friend says that getting IBAN number would be troublesome, and he lost his PayPal account.) I've been thinking, however , about people who live nearby him and DO have PayPal (nearby Manchester), so I could send money to them and they would just meet and give it. I haven't really found anyone yet. And if I had a car/could ask a friend to go here by car, he would have to take two more things :x (or at least one). Oh, and I earn around ?250 each month. And You are right. Krak?w is beautiful :) I am considering eventually moving there. -- Ola Hughson From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 10:35:25 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 11:35:25 -0400 Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled] In-Reply-To: <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <515EEF3D.7060203@gmail.com> Mouse wrote: > absent specific conscious attention (as now). The first time I had > occasion to pronounce the card game name "euchre", I picked the wrong > paradigm for the initial vowels and pronounced it "oyker" (my template > was (Leonhard) Euler's name - why that rather than "eunuch" or > "euphoria" or "eucalyptus" or "euphemism", I don't know). German vs. Greek. Peace... Sridhar From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 5 11:00:33 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:00:33 -0400 Subject: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <515EF521.8090208@sbcglobal.net> On 04/04/2013 08:58 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 04/04/13 9:03 AM, geneb wrote: >> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> >>>>> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >>>>> being worth the price we are charged for them... >>>> >>>> >>>> Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! >>>> >>>> Good one! >>>> >>>> g. >>> >>> I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? >>> ;) >> >> Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you >> paid for it new. :) > > The way to buy Macs is refurb/used. Will save a fortune, and you get the > same great hardware. > Great? [chuckle] ;) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 11:16:15 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:16:15 +0100 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 16:33, Ola Hughson wrote: > 2013/4/5 Liam Proven : >> Well, G5s seem to be down to around ?150 or so in Britain now and >> surface shipping would be fairly cheap. > > In a specific definition of "cheap". [Nod] I am intimately familiar with the problem! > I am trying to get a box (Solaris > 2.x media + manuals, sun shoebox and some other things) from UK here. > I already paid half of the shipping cost (or so), but I cannot pay > more now. (As in, a friend says that getting IBAN number would be > troublesome, and he lost his PayPal account.) > > I've been thinking, however , about people who live nearby him and DO > have PayPal (nearby Manchester), so I could send money to them and > they would just meet and give it. I haven't really found anyone yet. > > And if I had a car/could ask a friend to go here by car, he would have > to take two more things :x (or at least one). > > Oh, and I earn around ?250 each month. Currently, that is more than me, if that is any consolation. And London is *expensive*. I believe people still travel regularly between the UK and Poland by coach. Could someone carry a wheely-bag piece of luggage for you with equipment in it? I moved a Mac & its 17" monitor to the Isle of Man that way... Cheaper than any alternative I could find. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 5 11:38:06 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:38:06 -0700 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:52 AM -0400 4/5/13, David Riley wrote: >On Apr 5, 2013, at 9:00, Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 4 April 2013 22:21, David Riley wrote: >> >>> But from >>> the website, you wouldn't have a clue what they really were. >> >> Apart from the bit that says: >> >> WELCOME TO BAYNESVILLE ELECTRONICS! >> LOCATED IN TOWSON MD. >> 1631 E. JOPPA RD. BALTIMORE MD. 21286 >> TEL (410)-823-0082 FAX (410)-321-1912 > >I suppose I should clarify that over here, "electronics >store" usually means a place where you buy a stereo, not a >place where you buy diodes. That's what I meant by >"what they really were". I'd personally try "Oregon Electronics" first if I needed to buy some diodes. I tend to avoid places with "electronics" in the name or description when buying Stereo Equipment. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Apr 5 11:43:14 2013 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:43:14 -0400 Subject: RCA COSMAC Microkit Message-ID: <4f28cb6f$1d0c5a8c$7230176d$@com> Here is an article about the Microkit that came out later in 1975: > > > Does anyone have a COSMAC Microkit user manual? I have downloaded the docs > > for the COSMAC chip from Bitsavers, but there is no reference to the > > earlier Microkit in this doc. > I believe its on the net but not there. There is a yahoo COSMAC users > group. They do not have the Microkit User Manual, but there not even be one. Found this reference to the Microkit, but it's nearly a year newer than my system chip dates, meaning they were still selling Microkits though 1975: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/microcomputerAssociates/Microcomputer _Digest_v02n04_Oct75.pdf Bill From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 5 12:05:15 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:05:15 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F042E.40608@pico-systems.com> References: <515F042E.40608@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <515F044B.6020702@pico-systems.com> Jon Elson wrote: > Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 22:29:04 -0400 > From: Toby Thain > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 > Message-ID: <515E36F0.5040101 at telegraphics.com.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 04/04/13 9:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> > From: Brian Roth >> > To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" >> > Subject: VAX 11/780 >> > Message-ID: >> > <1365090232.96105.YahooMailNeo at web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > >> > >> > I just recently acquired a very nearly complete VAX 11/780. I will >> > be spending the next few months in a partial tear down and cleaning >> > and with luck, hopefully little money to get it operational again. I >> > ... >> >> > >> > Good luck restoring this machine! >> > > > > Seconded. I hope you will blog/document the whole process. I own an > 11/750 but haven't started restoring it. > > --Toby > > One huge advantage to the 780 is there are almost no custom parts in > it, other than > the LSI-11 which is still pretty much available, if needed. The whole > 780 CPU > was built out of 74Sxx chips, and could probably be maintained for another > 50 years if one wanted to. The only custom sort of parts would be in the > power supplies, which would be easy to swap out with generic DC supplies > if you couldn't repair them. > > Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 5 12:22:42 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:22:42 -0700 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> On 4/5/13 8:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might > expect. eBay, in particular. A 2GHz dual G5 is now too slow to be useful to browse a category even with TenFourFox due to Javascript bloat. I get through a page or two and give up in disgust. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 12:27:26 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 13:27:26 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <515F097E.2020806@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 01:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might >> expect. > > eBay, in particular. A 2GHz dual G5 is now too slow to be useful to > browse a > category even with TenFourFox due to Javascript bloat. I get through a > page or > two and give up in disgust. PROGRESS! ...or something. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jrasite at eoni.com Fri Apr 5 12:36:25 2013 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 10:36:25 -0700 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3A4C607D4DE346DE9CDA77F0CA73A42D@JimArnottPC> -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow >On 4/5/13 8:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might >> expect. > eBay, in particular. A 2GHz dual G5 is now too slow to be useful to browse > a > category even with TenFourFox due to Javascript bloat. What browser? I've found that in many cases the only browser that will provide a fully functional site is Safari. (And it too has its limitations.) Jim From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 5 12:39:44 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 18:39:44 +0100 Subject: English spelling In-Reply-To: <8D0001E0D1B6966-E34-1300C@Webmail-d120.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0001E0D1B6966-E34-1300C@Webmail-d120.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <008c01ce3224$93d2cbc0$bb786340$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Scott Quinn > Sent: 05 April 2013 15:08 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: English spelling > > ************************************** > > > > > On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > A little stupid.. I know about the rules for appending an S in the > > right > place, I just > > can't seem to master them. > > > I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then > > > I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks > > > about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple > > > pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin > > > of a single CPU compatible with something... > > English has inconsistent rules, and freely breaks them. > It seems to have more IRREGULAR conjugations, declensions, and plurals. > Can anyone explain why the 'I' is after the 'E' in "WEIRD"? > > "I disconnected the speaker on all of the computers in the lab." does not > imply that they share a speaker. Should I have said that I disconnected > the "speakerS"? or maybe "the speaker on EACH computer"? > > And, in this particular example, "pin compatible" (or "pin-compatible") is a > commonly used adjective that is not plural, no matter how many pins the > device has. > > > > The object noun in the speaker sentence is the speaker, therefore if you > disconnected more than one it would be "speakers" regardless of how many > computers they were connected to. Same goes for the pin-compatible CPUs > - the noun is the CPU, therefore pin remains singular (even though you're > talking about multiple pins on multiple CPUs). Same logic that gives us > "attorneys-general" and "gins and tonic" and a whole lot of confusion. > > As for weird, I just tell the students it's a weird word. > > > Was it Bernard Shaw that threw away the rules he considered pointless and > archaic? I know about cummings and capitalization, but that does little to > make his poems easier to read or more comprehensible. > > > Here is a poem that was in a book that my wife used when she was learning English. I love the way that words spelled differently at the end rhyme, and the words that have the same ending don't rhyme. When the English tongue we speak Why is break not rhymed with weak? Won't you tell me why it's true We say sew, but also few? And the maker of a verse Cannot rhyme his horse with worse? Beard is not the same as heard, Cord is different from word, Cow is cow, but low is low, Shoe is never rhymed with foe. Think of hose and dose and lose, And think of goose and yet of choose, Think of comb and tomb and bomb, Doll and roll and home and some. And since pay is rhymed with say, Why not paid with said I pray? Think of blood and food and good; Mould is not pronounced like could. Why is it done, but gone and lone Is there any reason known? To sum it up, it seems to me That sounds and letters don't agree. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 5 12:56:08 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 13:56:08 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_?= =?windows-1252?Q?archiving_=95_The_Register?= Message-ID: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> And interesting (and seemingly straight-forward) article about issues we face & discussed: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving Mountains of unreadable obsolete magnetic tapes! By Chris Mellor http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/03/archive_technology_problem/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 13:01:52 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:01:52 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/5/13 8:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might >> expect. > > eBay, in particular. A 2GHz dual G5 is now too slow to be useful to browse a > category even with TenFourFox due to Javascript bloat. I get through a page > or two and give up in disgust. When Javascript changed to 64-bit ints, it really pummelled CPU and memory requirements on 32-bit machines. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 5 13:21:10 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 11:21:10 -0700 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: At 2:54 PM +0000 4/5/13, Ian King wrote: >That's what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, but the >browser is not! My family and I use dual G4 Powermacs, which are >wonderful machines. But once the browser protocols migrate from what >their browsers can support, they might as well be doorstops from my >family's perspective. -- Ian The reason I upgraded from a 8500/180 to a G4/450 (2nd sold in the area, such an early model it was running System 8.6), and then from the G4/450 to a Rev.0 dual 2Ghz G5 was due to the speed at which I could surf. The reason I moved from the G5 to a late-2010 Mac Pro was because the G5 died after about seven years. With both the G5 PowerMac and the Mac Pro, the most important aspects were the amount of RAM and the number of HD's they can handle. In fact when I bought the dual 2.4Ghz 4-core (8-cores total) Mac Pro, until I took it above the stock 6Gb RAM, it was slower than the ancient G5. It would be nice if Apple would sell systems with enough RAM to run the OS. With the G4, I kept it running for a couple years, by doing my surfing on a Pentium 4 box I had. Zane Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 13:28:42 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 14:28:42 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 02:21 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> That's what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, but >> the >> browser is not! My family and I use dual G4 Powermacs, which are >> wonderful machines. But once the browser protocols migrate from what >> their browsers can support, they might as well be doorstops from my >> family's perspective. -- Ian > > The reason I upgraded from a 8500/180 to a G4/450 (2nd sold in the area, > such an early model it was running System 8.6), and then from the G4/450 > to a Rev.0 dual 2Ghz G5 was due to the speed at which I could surf. The > reason I moved from the G5 to a late-2010 Mac Pro was because the G5 > died after about seven years. > > With both the G5 PowerMac and the Mac Pro, the most important aspects > were the amount of RAM and the number of HD's they can handle. In fact > when I bought the dual 2.4Ghz 4-core (8-cores total) Mac Pro, until I > took it above the stock 6Gb RAM, it was slower than the ancient G5. I ran my G5 for a very long time for the same reason. > It > would be nice if Apple would sell systems with enough RAM to run the > OS. There is NEVER enough ram to run OS X. That's the main reason why I dumped it after so many years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From sales at elecplus.com Fri Apr 5 14:18:04 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:18:04 -0500 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 1:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) On 04/05/2013 02:21 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> That's what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, >> but the browser is not! This is the exact reason one of our home pages is straight HTML, W3C certified. We can test old NIC cards on Win 95 or 98 with no problem! Yes, the page could look a lot better and still be straight HTML; maybe when I get time I will re-do it. There really is no reason that web pages have to be so all-consuming. Designers seem to think that we want to be overloaded with visual sensations. Personally, I would much rather get the info I need, and not be pestered with ads and garbage. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3162/6224 - Release Date: 04/04/13 From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 14:23:41 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:23:41 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> Message-ID: <378F23E2-B74E-403C-ADE5-0823DC27DB14@gmail.com> On Apr 5, 2013, at 3:18 PM, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" wrote: > On 04/05/2013 02:21 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> That's what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, >>> but the browser is not! > > This is the exact reason one of our home pages is straight HTML, W3C > certified. We can test old NIC cards on Win 95 or 98 with no problem! Yes, > the page could look a lot better and still be straight HTML; maybe when I > get time I will re-do it. > > There really is no reason that web pages have to be so all-consuming. > Designers seem to think that we want to be overloaded with visual > sensations. Personally, I would much rather get the info I need, and not be > pestered with ads and garbage. Sure. Craigslist takes the same approach. It may look a little bare-bones, but last I checked, I could still use it with Lynx (assuming I didn't need to see photos, anyway). - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 14:24:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:24:13 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> Message-ID: <515F24DD.6010900@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 03:18 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > This is the exact reason one of our home pages is straight HTML, W3C > certified. We can test old NIC cards on Win 95 or 98 with no problem! Yes, > the page could look a lot better and still be straight HTML; maybe when I > get time I will re-do it. Bravo! > There really is no reason that web pages have to be so all-consuming. > Designers seem to think that we want to be overloaded with visual > sensations. Personally, I would much rather get the info I need, and not be > pestered with ads and garbage. Hear hear. I hate this "visual noise" generation that we seem to be mired in. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 14:30:28 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:30:28 -0700 Subject: Interesting ebay Northstar system In-Reply-To: <515A36B5.7681.339201D@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <515A36B5.7681.339201D@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <515F2654.90302@gmail.com> Who would have thought there would be a Nortstar Horizon in there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/261090432601 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 14:37:24 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:37:24 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <378F23E2-B74E-403C-ADE5-0823DC27DB14@gmail.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> <378F23E2-B74E-403C-ADE5-0823DC27DB14@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515F27F4.6020309@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 03:23 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>> That's what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, >>>> but the browser is not! >> >> This is the exact reason one of our home pages is straight HTML, W3C >> certified. We can test old NIC cards on Win 95 or 98 with no problem! Yes, >> the page could look a lot better and still be straight HTML; maybe when I >> get time I will re-do it. >> >> There really is no reason that web pages have to be so all-consuming. >> Designers seem to think that we want to be overloaded with visual >> sensations. Personally, I would much rather get the info I need, and not be >> pestered with ads and garbage. > > Sure. Craigslist takes the same approach. It may look a little > bare-bones, but last I checked, I could still use it with Lynx > (assuming I didn't need to see photos, anyway). Yep. And it's FAST, and lets you get stuff done. I think most sites nowadays are designed to dazzle and bamboozle you to the point where you'll buy something that you otherwise might not have bought. (which is something I wouldn't put past the suits, of course) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 14:37:49 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 11/780 References: <515F042E.40608@pico-systems.com> <515F044B.6020702@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1365190669.71641.YahooMailNeo@web141404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Jon Elson To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Friday, April 5, 2013 1:05 PM Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 ?? > One huge advantage to the 780 is there are almost no custom parts in it, other than > the LSI-11 which is still pretty much available, if needed.? The whole 780 CPU > was built out of 74Sxx chips, and could probably be maintained for another > 50 years if one wanted to.? The only custom sort of parts would be in the > power supplies, which would be easy to swap out with generic DC supplies > if you couldn't repair them. > > Jon Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. Brian. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 14:44:06 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:44:06 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 15:18, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > This is the exact reason one of our home pages is straight HTML, W3C > certified. > I like web designs like that. For the specific reason designs that are plain HTML are far, far more accessible then a flash filled monstrosity. > There really is no reason that web pages have to be so all-consuming. > There is a perfectly valid reason for such horrendous design: Pandering to the kiddies with far too much of mommy and daddy's money and with the average intelligence of a pistachio. Cheers, Christian From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 5 14:46:00 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:46:00 -0700 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F044B.6020702@pico-systems.com> References: <515F042E.40608@pico-systems.com> <515F044B.6020702@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <515F29F8.9080009@jwsss.com> On 4/5/2013 10:05 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > One huge advantage to the 780 is there are almost no custom parts in > it, other than > the LSI-11 which is still pretty much available, if needed. The whole > 780 CPU > was built out of 74Sxx chips, and could probably be maintained for > another > 50 years if one wanted to. Right now that may be true, but I have a huge pile of 74xxx, etc., chips and other similar age logic which a friend who did printer repair cast off in a downsizing. It is all NOS and unused, but I can't give it away. I suspect you should lay in a supply of 7400 stuff if you really wanted to maintain it, because the outcome of the market not wanting anything is that you pay thru the nose in a couple or a few years for what was easily obtained at one time. It happens slowly and only after you turn around and discover you really need something. it is better than what was mentioned on the other thread with the omnibus chips though. thanks JIm From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 5 14:48:44 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F24DD.6010900@neurotica.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> <515F24DD.6010900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201304051948.PAA08293@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> There really is no reason that web pages have to be so >> all-consuming. Designers seem to think that we want to be >> overloaded with visual sensations. Personally, I would much rather >> get the info I need, and not be pestered with ads and garbage. > Hear hear. I hate this "visual noise" generation that we seem to be > mired in. Agreed. There's a reason I use lynx. Actually, there are multiple reasons I use lynx. But that's one. See http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2009-09-07-1.html for a more fleshed-out explanation of my stance; roughly the second quarter of that post addresses this issue. (Other posts on that blah talk about other reasons, to varying extents....) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 14:50:47 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:50:47 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515F2B17.3090408@gmail.com> David Riley wrote: > http://www.baynesvilleelectronics.com > > Baynesville Electronics is one of the few remaining "real" > electronics stores in the Baltimore area. It's pretty much the > only place I know where I could go and buy resistors, diodes, > ICs, transformers, etc. for the past decade or so. But from > the website, you wouldn't have a clue what they really were. Holy smoking pile of crap, Batman! Peace... Sridhar From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 5 14:53:17 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:53:17 -0700 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F24DD.6010900@neurotica.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> <515F24DD.6010900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515F2BAD.8090903@jwsss.com> On 4/5/2013 12:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hear hear. I hate this "visual noise" generation that we seem to be mired in. > > -Dave There are some improvements that are on the way that have moved the browser graphic performance to the level of useful for in browser graphics gaming, and it is all in javascript engine fiddling. I don't think it will be going the other way any time soon. Web pages as in hypertexted pages, or front ends to databases you are all 100% right, give me something enhanced on the old fashioned text terminal screen maybe, but not bloat, and be done. Too many pages are way too busy. but the performance I saw in a recent posting for running games leads me to believe that there will be way more javascript stuff coming that relies on that performance, and none of it will be supported in either the mac G5 os's or in the earlier Intel mac os's. I have a very nice macbook which is in that catagory, and is stuck in an apple time warp that is the real disaster to contend with. if it had been much more than the 100 bucks I gave for it and does run vnc for remoting into my computing systems, I'd not have any user for it. I'm waiting for an affordable take on the larger Chrome notebook with the high density screen. That is really more useful than anything else. Lots of small clear windows on a nice clear screen. jim From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 14:59:47 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:59:47 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: An interesting article, but the issue is a bit overblown. I still have inbox files from when I was in college. They are in simple text mbox format. I could throw them away, but why? They take up around .01% of my total backup server space. They aren't indexed, but I could easily point my indexing engine at them if I wanted to. If my kids care about them when they grow up they can troll through them (at which point I'm sure they'll take up .0000001% of their available space) On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > And interesting (and seemingly straight-forward) article about > issues we face & discussed: > > Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving > Mountains of unreadable obsolete magnetic tapes! > By Chris Mellor > http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2013/04/03/archive_technology_**problem/ > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.**org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 15:06:58 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:06:58 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <1365190669.71641.YahooMailNeo@web141404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <515F042E.40608@pico-systems.com> <515F044B.6020702@pico-systems.com> <1365190669.71641.YahooMailNeo@web141404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <515F2EE2.6020902@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 03:37 PM, Brian Roth wrote: > > Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on > single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. The blowers? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 15:07:36 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:07:36 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> Message-ID: <515F2F08.9080002@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 03:44 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> There really is no reason that web pages have to be so all-consuming. >> > There is a perfectly valid reason for such horrendous design: Pandering to > the kiddies with far too much of mommy and daddy's money and with the > average intelligence of a pistachio. Nicely put. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 15:30:12 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:30:12 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2013, at 12:38 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 9:52 AM -0400 4/5/13, David Riley wrote: >> I suppose I should clarify that over here, "electronics >> store" usually means a place where you buy a stereo, not a >> place where you buy diodes. That's what I meant by >> "what they really were". > > I'd personally try "Oregon Electronics" first if I needed to buy some > diodes. I tend to avoid places with "electronics" in the name or > description when buying Stereo Equipment. Sure, if you already knew what that was. But if I'm in a new area and look in the Yellow Pages (or Yelp, or Google, or whatever) for an "electronics store", I'm going to find Best Buy or some local equivalent thereof. If I'm lucky(ish), I'll find MicroCenter, which at least sells SOME serial cables. But I'm not likely to find a place where I can ask for a 2N3904 and expect to get something other than a blank look. - Dave From brain at jbrain.com Fri Apr 5 15:36:08 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:36:08 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET 6540 ROMs? In-Reply-To: <515E7A6C.5040401@gmail.com> References: <515E7A6C.5040401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515F35B8.7020006@jbrain.com> On 4/5/2013 2:17 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > This is a stretch, but I figured I'd ask: anyone have any spare > 6540-series PET ROMs lying around? After diagnosing a number of other > failures, Ialmost have my (very beat up) chicklet-keyboard PET > working, but it looks like the -026 ROM (at F800-FFFF) has gone south > -- it has a few corrupted bits here and there. It looks like adapters > to fit standard 2716s are available to build, but before I invest time > and/or money in one of those I thought I'd ask around. > > Thanks as always, > Josh I have a 6540 adapter that converts 2764-27512 to 6540 pinout in the store. I have assembled units under manufacture, but they have not arrived yet. Still, I have a couple bare PCBs here from the test run I can solder up for you if interested. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 5 15:44:43 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:44:43 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> On 04/05/2013 03:59 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> And interesting (and seemingly straight-forward) article about >> issues we face & discussed: >> >> Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving >> Mountains of unreadable obsolete magnetic tapes! >> By Chris Mellor >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2013/04/03/archive_technology_**problem/ >> > An interesting article, but the issue is a bit overblown. I still have > inbox files from when I was in college. They are in simple text mbox > format. I could throw them away, but why? They take up around .01% of my > total backup server space. They aren't indexed, but I could easily point my > indexing engine at them if I wanted to. If my kids care about them when > they grow up they can troll through them (at which point I'm sure they'll > take up .0000001% of their available space) > > For your situation, and mine, yes, it's overblown. But there are many large companies who do have to worry. Brings back some threads here from 6 - 7 years ago about how to preserve the data for our beloved classics... BTW, what's the word on Sellam these days? What's he up to? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 15:51:23 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:51:23 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Identifications_sought_=3A=AC=29?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can only identify the easier ones. Likely a Zenith H-89 in the middle, and I thought a TRS-80 Model I on the front right although the more I look at that picture the less detail I can see. That front left one looks quite familiar though. Wish there was a bigger picture out there. Love the remake though. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/04/gates_allen_reshoot_photo/ > > ? > One of the most iconic photos from the history of Microsoft, featuring > a lanky young Bill Gates perched next to his coding mentor (the way he > tells it) Paul Allen, has been recreated at Seattle's Living Computing > Museum. > [...] > Among the systems still surrounding them are an Apple II with twin > drives and an ancient monitor in the top left of the picture, with a > Commodore Pet below Bill Gates. Readers who can identify the other > systems, please let us know in Comments. > ? > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Apr 5 16:06:08 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:06:08 -0700 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <1365190669.71641.YahooMailNeo@web141404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <515F042E.40608@pico-systems.com> <515F044B.6020702@pico-systems.com> <1365190669.71641.YahooMailNeo@web141404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2013, at 12:37 PM, Brian Roth wrote: > > Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on > single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. Right. The only reason that it's 3-phase is for load balancing (across the phases). The invidual power supplies are all 110v single phase. TTFN - Guy From sales at elecplus.com Fri Apr 5 16:12:04 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:12:04 -0500 Subject: finding things on the internet Message-ID: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> Some things are easy to Google, and you get reasonably appropriate results. Other things give you whacky results! Google HP 700/96, and you get decent results. Google apple, and the first 20 items relate to Apple computers or Apple Corp., not to eating apples. Google Commodore, and surprisingly, the first line is not Commodore computer related. (Interestingly, it seems a company has bought the rights to the Commodore and Amiga names, and will be re-inventing the C64 with nVidia graphics inside) Google wolf cub, and you get everything from animals to Scouting to music to golf clubs! Seems like they need to tweak their algorithms again? _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3162/6224 - Release Date: 04/04/13 From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 16:28:36 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F2EE2.6020902@neurotica.com> References: <515F042E.40608@pico-systems.com> <515F044B.6020702@pico-systems.com> <1365190669.71641.YahooMailNeo@web141404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <515F2EE2.6020902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1365197316.40162.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >From: Dave McGuire >To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Sent: Friday, April 5, 2013 4:06 PM >Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 >>On 04/05/2013 03:37 PM, Brian Roth wrote: >> > >Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on > >single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. >? The blowers? >? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave I did a quick look at the Eng drawings and while the power controller is 3 phase it looks like the fans are single phase. Not sure whats going on inside the power controller yet. I'll be tearing into this in a couple of weeks so if anyone has experience with the conversion, speak out. I know its been done. Brian. ________________________________ -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 16:31:15 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 17:31:15 -0400 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> Message-ID: <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 05:12 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Some things are easy to Google, and you get reasonably appropriate results. > Other things give you whacky results! > > Google HP 700/96, and you get decent results. > > Google apple, and the first 20 items relate to Apple computers or Apple > Corp., not to eating apples. Of course. The Internet is a technical thing, despite salespeoples' attempt to turn it into something else, and despite the general public's fascination with thinking of it as the next generation of TV set. > Google Commodore, and surprisingly, the first line is not Commodore computer > related. (Interestingly, it seems a company has bought the rights to the > Commodore and Amiga names, and will be re-inventing the C64 with nVidia > graphics inside) I suppose that's not all that shocking, though it is somewhat dismaying. > Google wolf cub, and you get everything from animals to Scouting to music to > golf clubs! Good heavens. > Seems like they need to tweak their algorithms again? Of that there is NO question. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 5 16:37:19 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> Message-ID: <20130405143652.U19354@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 5 Apr 2013, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > There is a perfectly valid reason for such horrendous design: Pandering to > the kiddies with far too much of mommy and daddy's money and with the > average intelligence of a pistachio. That is an insult to pistachios. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 5 15:30:15 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 21:30:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is it? In-Reply-To: <012601ce3158$104e40d0$30eac270$@lazzerini@email.it> from "Enrico Lazzerini" at Apr 4, 13 07:15:52 pm Message-ID: > > Is there anybody who knows what is this old chip? And where to try to find > it? I've seen 733Wxxx house codes on Xerox chips before, but hav never seen the equivalents list. > > If it help what I know is that it used to do somenting like shift data > register or Serial Shift Registers. > > It has a TTL level signal on its pins, it has 14 pins. You can see it named > U1 in the centre of this schematic: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/zqhgar4g7ib5j4z/Xerox820_FDC_Schematic.pdf > > > > Some pins are labelled on a schematics with: > > 1=D1, 2=D2, 3=D3, 4=D4, > > 10=A1, 11=A2, 12=A3, 13=A4, 14=A4, > > 15=ChipEnable (left to GND), > > 7=GND, > > 14=+5Vcc Wait a second. You said jsut now it has 14 pins, and you give a signal for pin 15. Does it have a top cap or something :-) More seriousyl, if it's actually a 16 pin IC, I would guess it's a programmed 74x188 (open collector) or more likely 74x288 (3-state output) PROM. That's a 32*8 bit device that goes udner a variety of other numbers too, like 18S030. Fiffernt manufacturers had differnt programming algorithms, but the all work the same way in-circuit (in read mode). The pinout is : 1 : D0 2 : D1 3 : D2 4 : D3 5 : D4 6 : D5 7 : D6 8 : Gnd 9 : D7 10 : A0 11 : A1 12 : A2 13 : A3 14 : A4 15 : CE/ 16 : Vcc This could match your device, A4 is tied high (so only useing the second half of the ROM) and only the first 4 data lines are used. Of course the problem for you, I guess, is that a blank chip of the right type is of little use to you. You need to konw the contents (looks to be 16 4-bit words in your case). You could copy it from a working device fro the same type of machine, but other than that uou have some designing to do... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 5 16:36:16 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 22:36:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Apr 5, 13 01:58:33 pm Message-ID: > > On 4 April 2013 21:40, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> > English has inconsistent [spelling] rules, and freely breaks them. > >> > >> Indeed. In my more cynical moments I sometimes feel it has more rules > >> than it does words. Consider `laughter'. Now prepend an `s'. Or > > > > That reminds me of a sentence that I think is quoted in one of Martin > > Gardner's books : > > > > 'Show the bold Prussian that praises slaughter, slaughter brings rout. > > Teach this slaughter-lover his fall nears' > > > > Yuo can delete the initial letter of all the words to form a new sentence. > > > > Incidentally, for the 'i before e' rule, I always liked : > > > > 'E before E except after C. We live in a weird society' :-) > > > > > >> > "I disconnected the speaker on all of the computers in the lab." does > >> > not imply that they share a speaker. > >> > >> Strictly speaking, the grammatical construct does imply that; in the > >> case of that particular sentence that implication is overridden by the > >> semantic unlikelihood of having all the lab's computers sharing a > >> single speaker. > >> > >> > Should I have said that I disconnected the "speakerS"? or maybe "the > >> > speaker on EACH computer"? > >> > >> Either one would fix it, yes. > > > > But 'I disconencted the speakers of all the computers in the lab' could > > mean multiple speakers for each machine. > > That might have been comprehensible if not so typo-ridden that it was > word-salad. I have hopefully corrected the major one, it should bow be readable. > > That was one message, Tony, where it would have been worth your time > to go slowly and carefully. It's also not threaded for me. Yes, and perhaps one day you will be able to do trivial soldering jobs, will be able to handle machine tools, and do various other things that I do without having to think about it. -tony From sales at elecplus.com Fri Apr 5 16:49:31 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:49:31 -0500 Subject: Amiga 4000/040 has been claimed Message-ID: <002c01ce3247$74599da0$5d0cd8e0$@com> The Amiga 4000 has been claimed. Many thanks to all those who inquired! Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6226 - Release Date: 04/05/13 From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Apr 5 16:58:51 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 21:58:51 +0000 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95_The?= =?Windows-1252?Q?_Register?= In-Reply-To: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Woyciesjes > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 10:56 AM > To: ClassicCMP > Subject: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register > > And interesting (and seemingly straight-forward) article about issues > we face & discussed: > > Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving Mountains of unreadable > obsolete magnetic tapes! > By Chris Mellor > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/03/archive_technology_problem/ > Popular press puffery. There are people looking seriously at these issues, rather than running around like Chicken Little. Oh, except the Microsoft problem: my daughter's homework is often sent to her in the latest version, which can't be read by any version that runs on a PPC-based Mac. Fortunately, my work laptop is a Macbook Air, but that's not an actual solution for the problem of anti-sustainable product churn. -- Ian From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 16:59:41 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:59:41 -0700 Subject: Commodore PET 6540 ROMs? In-Reply-To: <515F35B8.7020006@jbrain.com> References: <515E7A6C.5040401@gmail.com> <515F35B8.7020006@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Sounds cool -- where is it on the store? I found the 2364 adapters, but I'm not seeing anything for 6540s... Thanks! Josh On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 4/5/2013 2:17 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> This is a stretch, but I figured I'd ask: anyone have any spare >> 6540-series PET ROMs lying around? After diagnosing a number of other >> failures, Ialmost have my (very beat up) chicklet-keyboard PET working, but >> it looks like the -026 ROM (at F800-FFFF) has gone south -- it has a few >> corrupted bits here and there. It looks like adapters to fit standard >> 2716s are available to build, but before I invest time and/or money in one >> of those I thought I'd ask around. >> >> Thanks as always, >> Josh >> > I have a 6540 adapter that converts 2764-27512 to 6540 pinout in the > store. I have assembled units under manufacture, but they have not arrived > yet. Still, I have a couple bare PCBs here from the test run I can solder > up for you if interested. > > Jim > > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 5 17:02:55 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 23:02:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F2EE2.6020902@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 5, 13 04:06:58 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/05/2013 03:37 PM, Brian Roth wrote: > > > > Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on > > single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. > > The blowers? Yes, but what is likely to go wrong with the blowers? I would suggest it's either the bearings or th windings (probably the insulation breaking down in the latter case). The bearings are likely to be ball races nad will be standard sizes. I have never found a custom ball race in a computer. So you extract the old onws, measure internal and external diameters nad the thickness and go to the local bearing stockists. If they're bush bearings rather than ball races, you can make replacements ina good home workshop. The windings could be more of a problem. Yes, you can rewind motors, but in a lot of small blowers, the stator laminations are spot-welded to the casing, adter the thing was wound/ Rewindign looks to be a very fiddly job, but I guess it's possible. -tony From shumaker at att.net Fri Apr 5 17:22:51 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:22:51 -0700 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> On 4/5/2013 2:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/05/2013 05:12 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >> Some things are easy to Google, and you get reasonably appropriate results. >> Other things give you whacky results! >> >> Google HP 700/96, and you get decent results. >> >> Google apple, and the first 20 items relate to Apple computers or Apple >> Corp., not to eating apples. >> > Of course. The Internet is a technical thing, despite salespeoples' > attempt to turn it into something else, and despite the general public's > fascination with thinking of it as the next generation of TV set. > > >> Google Commodore, and surprisingly, the first line is not Commodore computer >> related. (Interestingly, it seems a company has bought the rights to the >> Commodore and Amiga names, and will be re-inventing the C64 with nVidia >> graphics inside) >> > I suppose that's not all that shocking, though it is somewhat dismaying. > > >> Google wolf cub, and you get everything from animals to Scouting to music to >> golf clubs! >> > Good heavens. > > >> Seems like they need to tweak their algorithms again? >> > Of that there is NO question. > > -Dave > > It's the new improved "dynamic search algorithm". Go back and do the query again from the same machine. The results won't be the same. "Recent" updates that Google turned on that supposedly look at the totality of your (and apparently other's) recent internet activity to post and rank results... s2 From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 5 17:23:46 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:23:46 -0600 Subject: Interesting ebay Northstar system In-Reply-To: <515F2654.90302@gmail.com> References: <515A36B5.7681.339201D@dave13.dunfield.com> <515F2654.90302@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <515F2654.90302 at gmail.com>, mc68010 writes: > Who would have thought there would be a Nortstar Horizon in there. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/261090432601 $75K with a feedback score of 27? Seems pretty risky. Looks like the seller bought it from gsaauctions.gov and is reselling it on ebay. There is a bunch of NASA/Shuttle stuff regularly showing up on gsaauctions.gov. Pretty orange and yellow keybaords, though. They look like ADDS terminals judging from the badge on the keyboard in the main photo. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 5 17:28:54 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:28:54 -0600 Subject: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving • The Register In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: In article <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010 at 505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>, Ian King writes: > Popular press puffery. There are people looking seriously at these issues, > rather than running around like Chicken Little. Oh, except the Microsoft > problem: my daughter's homework is often sent to her in the latest version, > which can't be read by any version that runs on a PPC-based Mac. > Fortunately, my work laptop is a Macbook Air, but that's not an actual > solution for the problem of anti-sustainable product churn. -- Ian While the above situation is true, it's not like "vendor lock-in" is some sort of new phenomenon that is only due to Microsoft. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 17:31:57 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 18:31:57 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=E2=80=A2?= =?UTF-8?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 17:58, Ian King wrote: > Oh, except the Microsoft problem: my daughter's homework is often sent to > her in the latest version, which can't be read by any version that runs on > a PPC-based Mac. Fortunately, my work laptop is a Macbook Air, but that's > not an actual solution for the problem of anti-sustainable product churn. > -- Ian > > While not an actual solution, and many will also find this unteneable; but I just simply refused to upgrade from Office 2003. There's a compatibility patch thing that lets Office 2003 use some of the Office 2007 and later formats, and that's fine for me. I refused to upgrade not because of compatibility reasons but because I utterly *loathe* the redesigned interface for Office 2007 and later (also the reason I am going to refuse to get Windows 8, because W8's interface makes me feel that the correct method of interface is "slowly bang head against wall until unconscious"). Can we just go back to VT-220 compatible terminals with ReGIS and Tek graphics, on PDP-11s, please? That would be nice. Cheers, Christian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 17:36:56 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 18:36:56 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515F5208.1000905@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 06:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on >>> single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. >> >> The blowers? > > Yes, but what is likely to go wrong with the blowers? I would suggest > it's either the bearings or th windings (probably the insulation breaking > down in the latter case). > > The bearings are likely to be ball races nad will be standard sizes. I > have never found a custom ball race in a computer. So you extract the old > onws, measure internal and external diameters nad the thickness and go to > the local bearing stockists. If they're bush bearings rather than ball > races, you can make replacements ina good home workshop. > > The windings could be more of a problem. Yes, you can rewind motors, but > in a lot of small blowers, the stator laminations are spot-welded to the > casing, adter the thing was wound/ Rewindign looks to be a very fiddly > job, but I guess it's possible. I'm suggesting that they might be three-phase, as they are in many other large VAXen. (I've never worked on the innards of an 11/780 myself) As you're likely aware, in some VAXen the ONLY three-phase component(s) is/are the blowers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 5 17:48:22 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:48:22 -0700 Subject: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515F54B6.4090607@sydex.com> The problem pretty much solved yesterday (Thursday) on Erik's VCF. My guess is that it simply takes that long for some messages to post. Part in question is the 74S288 bipolar PROM and used in the write-precomp portion of the 820 FDC board. Fortunately, the OP managed to find the reference design for the WD179x. I posted on the VCF the web site for a guy who will program 288s for a very reasonable charge. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 18:01:03 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 19:01:03 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <515F57AF.8050701@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 06:28 PM, Richard wrote: >> Popular press puffery. There are people looking seriously at these issues, >> rather than running around like Chicken Little. Oh, except the Microsoft >> problem: my daughter's homework is often sent to her in the latest version, >> which can't be read by any version that runs on a PPC-based Mac. >> Fortunately, my work laptop is a Macbook Air, but that's not an actual >> solution for the problem of anti-sustainable product churn. -- Ian > > While the above situation is true, it's not like "vendor lock-in" is > some sort of new phenomenon that is only due to Microsoft. I don't think anybody truly believes Microsoft invented vendor lock-in. But they certainly perfected it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 18:10:43 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 19:10:43 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > For your situation, and mine, yes, it's overblown. But there are > many large companies who do have to worry. Brings back some threads here > from 6 - 7 years ago about how to preserve the data for our beloved > classics... Apparently these people have forgotten that the mainframe people figured all this stuff out 40-some years ago. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 18:17:43 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 19:17:43 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F5208.1000905@neurotica.com> References: <515F5208.1000905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm suggesting that they might be three-phase, as they are in many other > large VAXen. (I've never worked on the innards of an 11/780 myself) As > you're likely aware, in some VAXen the ONLY three-phase component(s) is/are > the blowers. When I installed a VAX 8530 in our small shop in the early 1990s (when it was still a multi-thousand-dollar machine), it was our our only 3-phase box. ISTR it was as you mention - the blower was 3 phase but each PSU ran from its own leg with the load approximately balanced among them. -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Apr 5 18:30:33 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:30:33 -0700 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F5208.1000905@neurotica.com> References: <515F5208.1000905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <04DC0841-22C4-4A17-9DCF-05A443D7C41F@shiresoft.com> On Apr 5, 2013, at 3:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/05/2013 06:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on >>>> single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. >>> >>> The blowers? >> >> > > I'm suggesting that they might be three-phase, as they are in many other > large VAXen. (I've never worked on the innards of an 11/780 myself) As > you're likely aware, in some VAXen the ONLY three-phase component(s) is/are > the blowers. I just checked the field maintenance manual for the 11/780. I was correct in my earlier statement in that 3-phase is supplied for load balancing. The power controller is 3-phase but it splits out the individual phases. It splits the 3 phases into 4. Phase 1 has switched and unswitched outlets. Phases 2 & 3 are both switched. Blowers 1 & 3 are on switched Phase 3. Blower 2 is on unswitched Phase 1. In more detail here are the connections (not just the blowers): Phase1 Unswitched: 1. Blower #2 2. H7111 (T.O.D.) 3. PS #4 (MS780) 4. H7112 (memory battery backup) Phase 1 Switched: 1. 11/03 2. RX01 Phase 2 Switched: 1. PS #3 (CPU) 2. PS #1 (FP780) 3. RX01 fan 4. A.F. Sensor Box Phase 3 Switched: 1. PS #2 (CPU) 2. Blower #1 3. Blower #3 4. PS #5 (RH780) BTW on 115v 60Hz systems, the power controller is an 866-D. TTFN - Guy From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 5 18:41:19 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 19:41:19 -0400 Subject: PowerPC can run new Firefox - Re: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <515F611F.10904@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/04/13 10:54 AM, Ian King wrote: > On 4/5/13 6:19 AM, "Jason McBrien" wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Toby Thain >> wrote: >> >>> Sad. Great machines. A G5 is my main home desktop/dev box. Runs like a >>> dream. >>> >> >> >> One of my friends' father has been using a third gen G3 iMac for browsing >> the web since they first came out. It was all he really needed. Last >> December the web site he mainly uses switched to HTML5 so the ancient >> browser he had on there couldn't render the site properly. >> >> So my friend "upgraded" him to a G5 iMac, that's five years old. Runs >> everything his dad needs again and is comparatively fast. >> >> Note the old G3 iMac is still running fine, it just can't run the latest >> browser. >> > > That?s what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, but the > browser is not! My family and I use dual G4 Powermacs, which are > wonderful machines. But once the browser protocols migrate from what > their browsers can support, they might as well be doorstops from my > family's perspective. -- Ian Thanks to the efforts of Cameron Kaiser, you can run the latest Firefox on G4 and G5, if you wish: http://tenfourfox.com And Safari on OS X 10.5 is very modern. Unfortunately they never got all the bugs out of PowerPC Opera before it was discontinued. --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 5 18:43:36 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 19:43:36 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <515F61A8.5040009@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/04/13 1:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/5/13 8:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might >> expect. > > eBay, in particular. A 2GHz dual G5 is now too slow to be useful to > browse a > category even with TenFourFox due to Javascript bloat. I get through a > page or > two and give up in disgust. Odd, I seem to manage okay on this dual 2.5 with Tenfourfox - ebay, quora, twitter, etc. --Toby From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 18:59:18 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <04DC0841-22C4-4A17-9DCF-05A443D7C41F@shiresoft.com> References: <515F5208.1000905@neurotica.com> <04DC0841-22C4-4A17-9DCF-05A443D7C41F@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1365206358.77096.YahooMailNeo@web141406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >From: Guy Sotomayor >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Sent: Friday, April 5, 2013 7:30 PM >Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 ? >I just checked the field maintenance manual for the 11/780.? I was correct in my >earlier statement in that 3-phase is supplied for load balancing.? The power controller >is 3-phase but it splits out the individual phases.? It splits the 3 phases into 4.? Phase 1 >has switched and unswitched outlets.? Phases 2 & 3 are both switched.? Blowers 1 & 3 >are on switched Phase 3.? Blower 2 is on unswitched Phase 1. >In more detail here are the connections (not just the blowers): >Phase1 Unswitched: >1. Blower #2 >2. H7111 (T.O.D.) >3. PS #4 (MS780) >4. H7112 (memory battery backup) >Phase 1 Switched: >1. 11/03 >2. RX01 >Phase 2 Switched: >1. PS #3 (CPU) >2. PS #1 (FP780) >3. RX01 fan >4. A.F. Sensor Box >Phase 3 Switched: >1. PS #2 (CPU) >2. Blower #1 >3. Blower #3 >4. PS #5 (RH780) This is what I am seeing on the Eng drawings as well. It has a nice visual breakout of how everything is connected including the blowers. This is good news. Brian. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 5 19:00:24 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 17:00:24 -0700 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> Message-ID: <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> On 04/05/2013 03:22 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > It's the new improved "dynamic search algorithm". Go back and do > the query again from the same machine. The results won't be the same. > "Recent" updates that Google turned on that supposedly look at the > totality of your (and apparently other's) recent internet activity to > post and rank results... More to the point, even when I put a term in quotes, Google will still insist on grabbing things "like" it, often ahead of verbatim results. This really throws a monkey wrench into trying to come up with precise searches. Perhaps an expanded notation is needed as in "apple:fruit" to sift out the edible kind. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 19:06:47 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 20:06:47 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <20130405143652.U19354@shell.lmi.net> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> <20130405143652.U19354@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <16400E88-AC40-4130-96BD-C54C2BAE37B3@gmail.com> On Apr 5, 2013, at 17:37, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 5 Apr 2013, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> There is a perfectly valid reason for such horrendous design: Pandering to >> the kiddies with far too much of mommy and daddy's money and with the >> average intelligence of a pistachio. > > That is an insult to pistachios. Yeah, be nice to pistachios! They're perfectly smart, they're just a little nuts. - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 19:25:57 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 01:25:57 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 22:58, Ian King wrote: > > Popular press puffery. There are people looking seriously at these issues, rather than running around like Chicken Little. Oh, except the Microsoft problem: my daughter's homework is often sent to her in the latest version, which can't be read by any version that runs on a PPC-based Mac. LibreOffice 4 - the latest version - runs on Mac OS X 10.4 or higher on a PowerPC Mac with >=512MB of RAM. Also, you can get the official MS "Open XML" filters as a free download, which will enable MS Office 2004 to import 2007/2010 .docx/.xlsx/.pptx files: http://gigaom.com/2008/09/03/open-docx-with-office-2004/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 19:27:21 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 01:27:21 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 6 April 2013 01:25, Liam Proven wrote: > > LibreOffice 4 - the latest version - runs on Mac OS X 10.4 or higher > on a PowerPC Mac with >=512MB of RAM. Oops, sorry, I forgot the download link: http://www.libreoffice.org/download/?type=mac-ppc&lang=en-GB&version=4.0.2 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From xmechanic at landcomp.net Fri Apr 5 19:33:32 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 18:33:32 -0600 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F61A8.5040009@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> <515F61A8.5040009@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <515F6D5C.5020907@landcomp.net> On 4/5/13 5:43 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 05/04/13 1:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 4/5/13 8:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might >>> expect. >> >> eBay, in particular. A 2GHz dual G5 is now too slow to be useful to >> browse a >> category even with TenFourFox due to Javascript bloat. I get through a >> page or >> two and give up in disgust. > > Odd, I seem to manage okay on this dual 2.5 with Tenfourfox - ebay, > quora, twitter, etc. > > --Toby > > You could always reload it with PPC Linux if you want to 'modernize' it, but then again the G5's were major power hogs for the amount of work you could get out of them. Up to 160 watts at idle and 950 watts or more running full bore for the Quad. I guess it depends how much you like to pay per month on your electric bill. :) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 19:52:52 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 20:52:52 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F6D5C.5020907@landcomp.net> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> <515F61A8.5040009@telegraphics.com.au> <515F6D5C.5020907@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <515F71E4.6020709@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 08:33 PM, Dave Land wrote: > You could always reload it with PPC Linux if you want to 'modernize' it, but > then again the G5's were major power hogs for the amount of work you could > get out of them. Up to 160 watts at idle and 950 watts or more running full > bore for the Quad. I guess it depends how much you like to pay per month on > your electric bill. :) Oh good heavens. That's nothin'. But in terms of bang for the watt, it really isn't all that easy to beat a G5. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 5 20:01:04 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 18:01:04 -0700 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <515EC6AD.7030209@verizon.net> References: <515EC6AD.7030209@verizon.net> Message-ID: <515F73D0.5060701@sydex.com> The loos of the *physical* media is not so much troubling as is the loss of web content. As companies go out of business the content evaporates. The Wayback Machine helps a bit, bot think of all of the ftp content (which isn't preserved by archive.org) that has just plain evaporated. I would guess that the volume of this might even be larger now than the stuff archived on old magtape. Of all the bookmarks I have in my browser accumulated over the last 7 or 8 years, at least half of them are dead links. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 5 20:01:49 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 21:01:49 -0400 Subject: LinuxPPC - Re: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F6D5C.5020907@landcomp.net> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> <515F61A8.5040009@telegraphics.com.au> <515F6D5C.5020907@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <515F73FD.2030004@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/04/13 8:33 PM, Dave Land wrote: > On 4/5/13 5:43 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 05/04/13 1:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> On 4/5/13 8:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>>> But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might >>>> expect. >>> >>> eBay, in particular. A 2GHz dual G5 is now too slow to be useful to >>> browse a >>> category even with TenFourFox due to Javascript bloat. I get through a >>> page or >>> two and give up in disgust. >> >> Odd, I seem to manage okay on this dual 2.5 with Tenfourfox - ebay, >> quora, twitter, etc. >> >> --Toby >> >> > You could always reload it with PPC Linux if you want to 'modernize' it, That's what I used circa 2001, on PPC604. Pretty zippy, too. --Toby > but then again the G5's were major power hogs for the amount of work you > could get out of them. Up to 160 watts at idle and 950 watts or more > running full bore for the Quad. I guess it depends how much you like to > pay per month on your electric bill. :) > From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 5 20:18:20 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 20:18:20 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515F77DC.8090304@pico-systems.com> Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:06:58 -0400 From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 Message-ID: <515F2EE2.6020902 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 04/05/2013 03:37 PM, Brian Roth wrote: > > > > Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on > > single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. > The blowers? Nope, the entire machine is built from single-phase components. The power supplies even have wall plugs on them, and are powered through what are essentially the female end of extension cords. (I think they run off 208 V, but maybe they were running L-N off of 120 V.) The blowers were 208/230 V single-phase motors, you could hear the centrifugal switches drop back in when you shut the machine off. The power distribution wiring would have to be hacked for single-phase operation, hopefully the power supplies can be run off 240 V without harm. The TU77 may be a problem, I vaguely recall that may have a 3-phase motor for the vacuum blower/air bearing pump. Today, I'd get a VFD and run the motor (ONLY) off synthetic 3-phase. The RM07 also was 3-phase, I think all the smaller VAX 780 disks were single-phase. The RM07 was a total monstrosity from Burroughs, I hope you don't have one of those. We went through a lot of pain as one of the early adopters of that, but in the end it was a high performance drive and fairly reliable. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 5 20:27:46 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 20:27:46 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515F7A12.7000301@pico-systems.com> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:28:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Roth I did a quick look at the Eng drawings and while the power controller is 3 phase it looks like the fans are single phase. Not sure whats going on inside the power controller yet. I'll be tearing into this in a couple of weeks so if anyone has experience with the conversion, speak out. I know its been done. The power controller is REALLY simple, very much like the PDP-11 EPO controllers, just bigger. So, there is a voltage sent out on a 3-wire cable, and if you break two of the wires at the end of the chain, all units power off. The other wire powers up all units on the string. Just a little unregulated power supply and some relays. I think there's an airflow sensor in the blower plenums that breaks the EPO chain if a blower stops. Jon From wilson at dbit.com Fri Apr 5 20:38:40 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 21:38:40 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F77DC.8090304@pico-systems.com> References: <515F77DC.8090304@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20130406013840.GA7095@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Apr 05, 2013 at 08:18:20PM -0500, Jon Elson wrote: >The TU77 may be a problem, I vaguely recall that may have a 3-phase >motor for the vacuum blower/air bearing pump. Luckily no, it's just 220VAC with *insane* inrush current. >The RM07 also was 3-phase, I think all the smaller VAX 780 >disks were single-phase. RM02/03/05/80 are definitely single-phase. RP07 is 3-phase as you say, as is RP06 and I assume therefore RP05. Dunno about RP04. >The RM07 was a total monstrosity >from Burroughs, I hope you don't have one of those. We went through >a lot of pain as one of the early adopters of that, but in the >end it was a high performance drive and fairly reliable. I've heard you have to pop the RP07's top whenever it's running or it overheats... otherwise good though, and huge for the time. John Wilson D Bit From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 20:58:25 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 21:58:25 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F77DC.8090304@pico-systems.com> References: <515F77DC.8090304@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > The TU77 may be a problem, I vaguely recall that may have a 3-phase > motor for the vacuum blower/air bearing pump. I can't say for a TU77, but the TU78 is 220V. > The RM07 also was 3-phase, I think all the smaller VAX 780 > disks were single-phase. The RM07 was a total monstrosity > from Burroughs, I hope you don't have one of those. We went through > a lot of pain as one of the early adopters of that, but in the > end it was a high performance drive and fairly reliable. I don't remember the RM07. I remember the RM05 (CDC 9766) and the RP07, which I _thought_ was a 100% DEC design (that resembled a white washing machine with no access panels), but I could be wrong about that. -ethan > > Jon > From evan at snarc.net Fri Apr 5 21:10:58 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 22:10:58 -0400 Subject: Apple //e Platinum wanted Message-ID: <515F8432.704@snarc.net> Does anyone have a good-condition, second-generation (working + non-yellowed) //e Platinum they'd consider selling to me? There are a few Platinums on eBay but I am leery of going that route. (Platinum is the model with the numeric keypad. There were two versions: the first gen in standard Apple II beige, and the second gen in a gray color -- that's the one I want.) From brain at jbrain.com Fri Apr 5 21:53:17 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 21:53:17 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET 6540 ROMs? In-Reply-To: References: <515E7A6C.5040401@gmail.com> <515F35B8.7020006@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <515F8E1D.8080602@jbrain.com> On 4/5/2013 4:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Sounds cool -- where is it on the store? I found the 2364 adapters, but > I'm not seeing anything for 6540s... http://store.go4retro.com/6540-adapter/ I took them out pending the new shipment of boards, but I put them back in with qty 1 if you're interested. Jim From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 22:56:33 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 20:56:33 -0700 Subject: Commodore PET 6540 ROMs? In-Reply-To: <515F8E1D.8080602@jbrain.com> References: <515E7A6C.5040401@gmail.com> <515F35B8.7020006@jbrain.com> <515F8E1D.8080602@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <515F9CF1.8010109@gmail.com> On 4/5/2013 7:53 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 4/5/2013 4:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Sounds cool -- where is it on the store? I found the 2364 adapters, but >> I'm not seeing anything for 6540s... > http://store.go4retro.com/6540-adapter/ > > I took them out pending the new shipment of boards, but I put them > back in with qty 1 if you're interested. > > Jim > Awesome. Ordered one(plus a ZoomFloppy board, since I've wanted one for awhile...). Thanks! Josh From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 01:33:36 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 06:33:36 +0000 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <515F73D0.5060701@sydex.com> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 06/04/2013 02:01:04 Subject: Re: pdp-11/23 config >The loos of the *physical* media is not so much troubling as is the >loss of web content. As companies go out of business the content >evaporates. The Wayback Machine helps a bit, bot think of all of the >ftp content (which isn't preserved by archive.org) that has just plain >evaporated. I note from the BBC News that UK Libraries and Museums are to start archiving web content:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-22028738 > >I would guess that the volume of this might even be larger now than the >stuff archived on old magtape. > >Of all the bookmarks I have in my browser accumulated over the last 7 >or 8 years, at least half of them are dead links. > >--Chuck > Dave G4UGM From pbirkel at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 09:16:01 2013 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 10:16:01 -0400 Subject: DEC M7522 (RUX50) Unibus Quad-slot RX50 Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Documentation is "half" the battle; many thanks .. if you find any :->. Darn about the spares ... On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Paul Birkel wrote: > > I've been trying to track down online documentation (manual, engineering > > drawings) for this Quad Unibus card, a controller for the RX50. No luck > at > > all. Nada :-<. Just some references in RSX/RSTS/Ultrix marketing > > documents. > > > > Does anyone have, or know where such documentation can be found? > > I may have documentation. I am shifting a lot of items this month. If I > run across it, I will pull it. > > > Also, does anyone have (or knows someone who has) a spare/loose M7522 > that > > they'd be willing to part with? > > I just have the one (we got it at my former job for making software > distrubution floppies on our 11/750 for our MicroVAX customers, > back when such things were new). No spares. Sorry. > > -ethan > From christopher1400 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 16:54:47 2013 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:54:47 -0700 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <20130405143652.U19354@shell.lmi.net> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> <20130405143652.U19354@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: This here is actually quite relevant to my experience with trying to browse the web last night on a 20" iMac G5 (2.1 GHz, 1.5 gigs ram, Leopard), as it was dreadfully slow with Ten Four Fox, and Safari was too old to be worth bothering with. I guess this is why I found the iMac on the side of the road, it's a bit too slow to be useful for anything other than using the old Wacom tablet with Photoshop CS3 (and it's slow at that). From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 19:02:08 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 20:02:08 -0400 Subject: Need PDP-9 Paper Tapes Message-ID: The RICM has the processor of their PDP-9 working fairly well. We have most of the diags for the processor on paper tape. We will make working copies of the tapes and also make images to send to Bitsavers. We have the diag documentation for the TC59/TU20, but we do not have the paper tapes. It would be possible to enter the source from the listing and assemble it using Simh, but that would be a bit of work. I know that it is probably wishful thinking, but does anyone have paper tapes of the TC59/TU20 diags? Paper tapes of the TC02/TU55 diags would be nice to have too. We would eventually like to get an OS running on the system. It looks like the ADSS Input/Output Monitor will run on our configuration, and maybe even the Keyboard Monitor. Does anyone have paper tapes for ADSS or any other monitor that would run on this system? Details of the paper tapes and manuals that we have are at the bottom of this page: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9 -- Michael Thompson From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Apr 6 06:27:32 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 00:27:32 +1300 Subject: My IBM 5160 on YouTube Message-ID: My IBM XT captured on YouTube (with a bit of Checkit, PC Tools and Zork 2 thrown in). http://youtu.be/luUPvzx-XWU From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Sat Apr 6 08:00:06 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 14:00:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment Message-ID: <1365253206.48217.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hi everybody, I had a look through my tapes and found one from Control Data being labeled "Total Service Tape". Does anybody know, if this tape also serves as an alignment tape? I couldn't find any information about that on the Net so far. I've been trying to resurrect one of my Fujitsu M2442AC tape drives. Even with heads cleaned,it fails the diagnostics when it comes to writing and reading a tape. It turned out that the drive head being held by a plastic plate was loose due to the plastic plate being broken. I tried to glue the plastic together, mounted the head back into its position, but the drive diagnostics still fails (error: F300 ). Azimuth-adjusting the head after remouting obviously needs an alignment tape. Having quite a collection of reel tape drives, I thought it would in any way make sense to have such a tape for head adjustment procedures, but they some to have become pretty rare these days (at least for 9-track 1/2" drives). Substituting these special tapes by any other tricks or ways seems not to come close to the alignment precision obtained wich alignment tapes. Thanks for any help in advance ! Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 09:32:48 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 16:32:48 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 1:10, William Donzelli wrote: > Apparently these people have forgotten that the mainframe people > figured all this stuff out 40-some years ago. Now they only need to figure out how to keep the mainframe itself alive... - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 09:34:52 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 16:34:52 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5160328C.5050201@xs4all.nl> On 5-apr-2013 19:56, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > And interesting (and seemingly straight-forward) article about > issues we face & discussed: > > Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving > Mountains of unreadable obsolete magnetic tapes! > By Chris Mellor > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/03/archive_technology_problem/ Interesting article, but it's really quite simple: You are supposed to spend dough, perpetually so. That's the name of the game. There is no good explanation why, say, Ultrium LTO tapes have only a certain amount of backward compatibility. (I mean, I can somewhat understand it of 4 mm versus 8 mm DDS/DAT tapes, but LTO...?) - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 09:40:28 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 10:40:28 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_?= =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2013, at 10:32 AM, MG wrote: > On 6-apr-2013 1:10, William Donzelli wrote: >> Apparently these people have forgotten that the mainframe people >> figured all this stuff out 40-some years ago. > > Now they only need to figure out how to keep the mainframe itself > alive... They seem to be doing ok. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 11:00:24 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 12:00:24 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > Now they only need to figure out how to keep the mainframe itself > alive... Their impending death has slowed down to a snail's pace. There is speculation that the amount of sites moving away from the mainframes and the number of new mainframe installations is about even, but IBM is very secretive about real numbers. It is too bad that the ultra-conservative mainframe types will not loosen their ties enough to get blood to their brains and listen to the Unix people, and that the cocky Unix people will not shut up about how great Unix is and listen to what mainframe people have to offer. Oil and water. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 11:28:10 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 12:28:10 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5160328C.5050201@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <5160328C.5050201@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51604D1A.10107@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 10:34 AM, MG wrote: >> And interesting (and seemingly straight-forward) article about >> issues we face & discussed: >> >> Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving >> Mountains of unreadable obsolete magnetic tapes! >> By Chris Mellor >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/03/archive_technology_problem/ > > Interesting article, but it's really quite simple: You are supposed > to spend dough, perpetually so. That's the name of the game. > > There is no good explanation why, say, Ultrium LTO tapes have only > a certain amount of backward compatibility. (I mean, I can somewhat > understand it of 4 mm versus 8 mm DDS/DAT tapes, but LTO...?) SUITS! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sat Apr 6 11:34:41 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 18:34:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) Message-ID: allison wrote: > Look uo the backplan to find out its configuration. >From my initial posting: > > It is the BA11 variety and contains a H9273 backplane, which as far as I could find out is QQ-CD Am I missing something here? > Also read the fine manual for the quad width 11/23 you will find there > are jumpers/switches for use in AB/CD backplanes. Most quad width cards also conform to that. Also from my initial posting: > > The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured > > for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another > > environment to avoid shorting signals together) Am I missing something here? > CD lines are needed for RL11 controller (two board RL01/02 controller). Ah, thanks. Alas I've already been promised the single board variety of that option. > And if all else fails you can replace the backplane with one that is > AB/AB as I've done that many times. Thereby sacrificing the option of integrating any CD-dependent boards I might happen across in the future. Best idea I could think of until now would be a mixed (Q/CD - Q/Q) layout backplane, but I do not know whether these even exist in the required 9-slot form factor. Anyway, I think I'll treat the backplane as a given constant right now (except from probably expanding it to Q-22, see below) and look for the "right" boards to populate it. David Riley wrote: > The H9273 is perfectly compatible with an 11/23 CPU; there > is a jumper you can set for 18-bit use. Obviously, though, > turning it into a 22-bit backplane is preferable. > Fortunately, that's pretty easy. Meh...I've been hearing that I might run into problems with some other processors (LSI-11(/2), very early KDF11-A versions), should I ever need to use the backplane as a test platform for one of those in the future. Is that problem the one simply worked around with some insulating tape over the BDAL18:21 connector pads? > > The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured > > for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another > > environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful" use of the CD lanes. > Correct. The Qbus PDP-11s only used the CD lane for PMI > (or custom logic, if you had that). Sounds interesting, could you elaborate? > I'd get the M8189 if you > can, because it saves you the hassle of finding boot ROM > and serial cards for the console. Good, as it seems someone found one of these for me. > > What are these intended for anyway (I was thinking of some sort of PMI predecessor, probably > > wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine? > > For an 11/23, those lanes will just go unused. It's not > so bad, really; you have to try pretty hard to fill up 9 > slots. I'd thought so; perhaps I'll happen across some esoteric cards that use them, or I'll hack something custom in there. > If it's in > a box labelled 11/23, though, check to make sure someone > hasn't already performed the modification. OK, thanks! Arno From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 12:59:56 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 13:59:56 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > David Riley wrote: >> The H9273 is perfectly compatible with an 11/23 CPU; there >> is a jumper you can set for 18-bit use. Obviously, though, >> turning it into a 22-bit backplane is preferable. >> Fortunately, that's pretty easy. > > Meh...I've been hearing that I might run into problems with some other processors (LSI-11(/2), very early KDF11-A versions), should I ever need to use the backplane as a test platform for one of those in the future. Is that problem the one simply worked around with some insulating tape over the BDAL18:21 connector pads? Well, you *could* work around it that way. I guess Kapton would probably be a good bet. You're very unlikely to be using early LSI-11 boards unless you're a true masochist, IMO, but I wouldn't call it impossible. The issue is that the very early boards used those as test lines, which has the tendency to cause problems with other 22-bit devices. Be aware that if you're using the system as 18-bit, you'll need to make sure that your peripheral cards are jumpered to 18-bit if necessary (boards that use DMA often need to know). The 22-bit conversion is also easy to undo, assuming you're handy with a soldering iron; you're just bussing 4 lines straight down the backplane. For me, undoing that would be about as easy as looking up which pins to cover and then covering them with tape, though I guess it would involve removing the backplane from the chassis. It's a shame that the H9273 doesn't have wire-wrap stakes coming out the back like the H9270 does, because that makes the conversion much easier to perform and to reverse. >> > The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured >> > for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another >> > environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful" use of the CD lanes. > >> Correct. The Qbus PDP-11s only used the CD lane for PMI >> (or custom logic, if you had that). > Sounds interesting, could you elaborate? The only existing application I know of (besides PMI) is the RL11 board set. There were probably quite a few other board sets that used the CD lines for inter-board communication; the slots are routed pin-to-pin for the most part, but slot-to-slot instead of bussed straight through, so as long as you have the cards in the right order, they won't be talking to other ones in the backplane. For example, the MSV11-J boards (PMI memory) have the top pins connected straight through to the bottom on the card, but the KDJ11-B only has the top fingers populated, so the PMI bus terminates at the card. You could put an RL11 board set directly below it with no negative consequences, for example. >> > What are these intended for anyway (I was thinking of some sort of PMI predecessor, probably >> > wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine? >> >> For an 11/23, those lanes will just go unused. It's not >> so bad, really; you have to try pretty hard to fill up 9 >> slots. > I'd thought so; perhaps I'll happen across some esoteric cards that use them, or I'll hack something custom in there. Pretty much. There are plenty of quad-height boards that use the CD slots for power but nothing else. >> If it's in >> a box labelled 11/23, though, check to make sure someone >> hasn't already performed the modification. > OK, thanks! I wouldn't swear to the fact that there weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while 11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs). - Dave From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 13:22:35 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 20:22:35 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 16:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > They seem to be doing ok. Not according to the Register. Okay, fair is fair, I think IBM and some other (favorable) sources may claim otherwise. I keep on stumbling over mainframes everywhere, they're just so damn common. Everybody is also talking about them in schools, businesses and so forth. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 13:24:52 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 20:24:52 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 18:00, William Donzelli wrote: > Their impending death has slowed down to a snail's pace. There is > speculation that the amount of sites moving away from the mainframes > and the number of new mainframe installations is about even, but IBM > is very secretive about real numbers. At least HP doesn't even bother to lie about the (real) numbers of the VMS and HP-UX install base, they just don't care. So, I guess that does still make IBM a bit better... > It is too bad that the ultra-conservative mainframe types will not > loosen their ties enough to get blood to their brains and listen to > the Unix people, and that the cocky Unix people will not shut up about > how great Unix is and listen to what mainframe people have to offer. > Oil and water. It doesn't help much either that there are no --- absolutely zero, null, nothing, nada --- remote access "z" systems. Only "i" (an AS/400), that I can think of, but that's not a true mainframe; quasi-mainframe at best? - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 13:36:53 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 14:36:53 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 02:24 PM, MG wrote: >> It is too bad that the ultra-conservative mainframe types will not >> loosen their ties enough to get blood to their brains and listen to >> the Unix people, and that the cocky Unix people will not shut up about >> how great Unix is and listen to what mainframe people have to offer. >> Oil and water. > > It doesn't help much either that there are no --- absolutely zero, > null, nothing, nada --- remote access "z" systems. Do you mean *public* remote access? Since most of the "z" systems out there are doing stuff like running the world's financial system, I don't think you'll see much of that. > Only "i" (an > AS/400), that I can think of, but that's not a true mainframe; > quasi-mainframe at best? "Mini". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 13:41:33 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 14:41:33 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51606C5D.9020204@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 02:22 PM, MG wrote: >> They seem to be doing ok. > > Not according to the Register. Okay, fair is fair, I think IBM > and some other (favorable) sources may claim otherwise. While I generally like The Register, they're reporting on things that are seen out in the wild everywhere, things that are trendy, and things that are used to deliver Java web services. Mainframes are not trendy...they just keep the world going 'round. While some companies (like web hosting companies) loudly tout what they run, most banks, hospitals, etc generally do not. If they were no longer profitable, or in demand, they'd no longer be available. Most of the people who have been proclaiming "mainframes are dead!" for the past, oh THIRTY YEARS are the ones selling other types of systems. I, at least, have been around this particular block before...so have many of the other old-timers on this list. > I keep on stumbling over mainframes everywhere, they're just so > damn common. Everybody is also talking about them in schools, > businesses and so forth. Nobody likes a smartass. Just FYI. But either way, that's the case in my town. There's more mainframe work here than in any other technical business. I actually thought of moving into that line of work just for job availability, but it turns out I didn't need to because I found other work (which was more "up my alley", so to speak) very quickly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 14:08:14 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 15:08:14 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_?= =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> On Apr 6, 2013, at 14:36, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/06/2013 02:24 PM, MG wrote: >>> It is too bad that the ultra-conservative mainframe types will not >>> loosen their ties enough to get blood to their brains and listen to >>> the Unix people, and that the cocky Unix people will not shut up about >>> how great Unix is and listen to what mainframe people have to offer. >>> Oil and water. >> >> It doesn't help much either that there are no --- absolutely zero, >> null, nothing, nada --- remote access "z" systems. > > Do you mean *public* remote access? Since most of the "z" systems out > there are doing stuff like running the world's financial system, I don't > think you'll see much of that. Are there any public-access IBM systems (360, 370, or even successors like z) that are friendly to hobbyists in a similar vein to LCM's PDP-10s and 11/780-5? I suspect it wouldn't make a lot of sense since a lot of them are batch systems with little interactivity, but I'd welcome the chance to play with a system. I guess there's always Hercules, and I hear there are pre-built images for that. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 14:17:27 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 15:17:27 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 03:08 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>> It is too bad that the ultra-conservative mainframe types will not >>>> loosen their ties enough to get blood to their brains and listen to >>>> the Unix people, and that the cocky Unix people will not shut up about >>>> how great Unix is and listen to what mainframe people have to offer. >>>> Oil and water. >>> >>> It doesn't help much either that there are no --- absolutely zero, >>> null, nothing, nada --- remote access "z" systems. >> >> Do you mean *public* remote access? Since most of the "z" systems out >> there are doing stuff like running the world's financial system, I don't >> think you'll see much of that. > > Are there any public-access IBM systems (360, 370, or > even successors like z) that are friendly to hobbyists in a > similar vein to LCM's PDP-10s and 11/780-5? I suspect > it wouldn't make a lot of sense since a lot of them are batch > systems with little interactivity, but I'd welcome the > chance to play with a system. Actually they're nearly all interactive. Most of the "heavy lifting" (processing bank transactions) all happens in batch, as it should, but TSO sessions are how development, monitoring, data entry, etc gets done. > I guess there's always > Hercules, and I hear there are pre-built images for that. There are. I run several instances of that, and I had once thought of setting up a system for people to use, but it's so easy to run that I didn't see much point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 14:40:54 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 21:40:54 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 20:36, Dave McGuire wrote: > Do you mean *public* remote access? Yes, I did indeed mean that (but didn't realize I had to spell it out). > Since most of the "z" systems out there are doing stuff like > running the world's financial system, I don't think you'll see > much of that. The VMS, HP-UX, AIX, etc. advocates (and 'artists') will claim the same about their equally obscure/niche platforms. /Here/, an article from a few months back. Have a read, I'd say... > "Mini". Thanks for the laugh. Seriously though, I hate to break it to you, but these aren't the 1950~'70s anymore. Nobody cares for those terms anymore, certainly not those getting out of the education mills now (who almost ~99% likely haven't heard of "z" or even "i" either, certainly not through their educational exposure). A true mini nowadays is one of those ITX board systems or even a 'smart phone', if you will. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 14:45:47 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 21:45:47 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 21:17, Dave McGuire wrote: > Actually they're nearly all interactive. Most of the "heavy lifting" > (processing bank transactions) all happens in batch, as it should, but > TSO sessions are how development, monitoring, data entry, etc gets done. From what I've read and heard, that has been largely marginalized and replaced with generic Windows-hosted client stuff nowadays with fancy 'GUI' tools. > There are. Where? Also, are you allowed to by IBM? Wouldn't you be required to buy a license (and what-not else)? I mean, why else does IBM charge a hefty sum for very restricted remote access to an IBM "z"...? > I run several instances of that, and I had once thought of setting > up a system for people to use, but it's so easy to run that I didn't > see much point. Maybe because you'd get IBM's lawyers after you, that's why you haven't. The fact that you even say you run it at home probably isn't too wise, especially if IBM read about it... As far as I'm aware, it's not exactly 'allowed' to run (e.g.) "z" 'at home', not even for non-commercial/private reasons and end- uses/purposes. - MG From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 14:53:06 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 15:53:06 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6 April 2013 13:59, David Riley wrote: > I wouldn't swear to the fact that there weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit > systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while > 11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better > than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to > do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs). > > > I don't know anything about how DEC sold their machines, but I do believe they did sell the 11/23 as an 18-bit system (even though the KDF11A is very much capable of 22-bit), as I remember there is a "PDP-11/23" version of the BA11-N box (with H9273-A, the BA11-N always has the H9273-A; except special OEM boxes that might just have an H9275-A -- or a hobbyist (or company that was too cheap/clever to get a 23+ box) who has upgraded their BA11-N to an H9275-A); as well as a "PDP-11/03L" version of the BA11-N box (the difference between the two being only the front plate, which on the 11/03-L version is all white, including the "background" of the logotype, while the 11/23 has the "background" of the logo painted black (to make it more visible)). The 11/23+ comes in the BA11-S box, which while also a 9-slot long backplane, is the H9276-A backplane which is by default a Q22/CD backplane; I don't think the H9275-A can fit into a BA11-S box, though. I really want to get my hands on a PDP-11/03L version of the BA11-N box; I'm still trying to replace my "lost" PDP-11 system, and at present all I've got is a CPU and an H9275-A backplane. (I like the "all white" front plate, looks nicer in my opinion.) Nevermind that though, I'm going astray of the original topic. Cheers, Christian From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 14:54:51 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 15:54:51 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> Ok Sparky, whatever you say. -Dave On 04/06/2013 03:40 PM, MG wrote: > On 6-apr-2013 20:36, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Do you mean *public* remote access? > > Yes, I did indeed mean that (but didn't realize I had to spell it > out). > > >> Since most of the "z" systems out there are doing stuff like >> running the world's financial system, I don't think you'll see >> much of that. > > The VMS, HP-UX, AIX, etc. advocates (and 'artists') will claim > the same about their equally obscure/niche platforms. > > /Here/, an article from a few months back. Have a read, I'd say... > > > >> "Mini". > > Thanks for the laugh. Seriously though, I hate to break it to you, > but these aren't the 1950~'70s anymore. Nobody cares for those > terms anymore, certainly not those getting out of the education > mills now (who almost ~99% likely haven't heard of "z" or even > "i" either, certainly not through their educational exposure). > > A true mini nowadays is one of those ITX board systems or even a > 'smart phone', if you will. > > - MG -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 14:54:57 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 21:54:57 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51606C5D.9020204@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> <51606C5D.9020204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51607D91.3020205@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 20:41, Dave McGuire wrote: > While I generally like The Register, they're reporting on things that are > seen out in the wild everywhere, things that are trendy, and things that are > used to deliver Java web services. Mainframes are not trendy...they just > keep the world going 'round. While some companies (like web hosting > companies) loudly tout what they run, most banks, hospitals, etc generally > do not. VMS gets the same treatment, but probably deservedly so, eh? It's just the poor, poor, mainframes that are 'getting it'. Very unfair indeed. > If they were no longer profitable, or in demand, they'd no longer be > available. If they were so incredibly profitable, why isn't IBM releasing loads of new "z" things and trying to get one into every major education mill; you know, to make sure that there will be enough know-how to keep these /very profitable/ things up and running...? > Most of the people who have been proclaiming "mainframes are dead!" > for the past, oh THIRTY YEARS are the ones selling other types of > systems. They weren't wrong though, maybe a bit early with their prediction at most. > Nobody likes a smartass. Just FYI. Touchy subject? > I actually thought ofmoving into that line of work just for job > availability, but it turnsout I didn't need to because I found other > work (which was more "up my alley", so to speak) very quickly. Okay... - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 14:58:40 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 15:58:40 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 03:45 PM, MG wrote: >> Actually they're nearly all interactive. Most of the "heavy lifting" >> (processing bank transactions) all happens in batch, as it should, but >> TSO sessions are how development, monitoring, data entry, etc gets done. > > From what I've read and heard, that has been largely marginalized and > replaced with generic Windows-hosted client stuff nowadays with fancy > 'GUI' tools. I was in a Lowe's store today (big US-based hardware store chain) and saw a very obvious TSO or CICS session running in a 3270 emulator at every customer service station at the desk. And that was just today's random data point in a very mainstream place. >> There are. > > Where? Do your own googling. You can get VM/370 and a few releases of MVS, as well as some other stuff. This is not news, even if it's news to you. > Also, are you allowed to by IBM? Yes, for certain (old) releases. This is very common, lots of people are doing it. It is not new. >> I run several instances of that, and I had once thought of setting >> up a system for people to use, but it's so easy to run that I didn't >> see much point. > > Maybe because you'd get IBM's lawyers after you, that's why you > haven't. The fact that you even say you run it at home probably > isn't too wise, especially if IBM read about it... Wrong. > As far as I'm aware, it's not exactly 'allowed' to run (e.g.) "z" > 'at home', not even for non-commercial/private reasons and end- > uses/purposes. Wrong again. One day I will learn to avoid feeding the trolls. One day. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 15:05:21 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 16:05:21 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51608001.2040601@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 12:00 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Now they only need to figure out how to keep the mainframe itself >> alive... > > Their impending death has slowed down to a snail's pace. There is > speculation that the amount of sites moving away from the mainframes > and the number of new mainframe installations is about even, but IBM > is very secretive about real numbers. > > It is too bad that the ultra-conservative mainframe types will not > loosen their ties enough to get blood to their brains and listen to > the Unix people, and that the cocky Unix people will not shut up about > how great Unix is and listen to what mainframe people have to offer. > Oil and water. This is painfully true. And it really shouldn't be, because when the two worlds combine, very cool things can happen. The strengths and weaknesses mesh almost perfectly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 15:05:26 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 22:05:26 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <51608006.5070109@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 0:31, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Can we just go back to VT-220 compatible terminals with ReGIS and > Tek graphics, on PDP-11s, please? That would be nice. As much as I like my VT220 (and I still use it quite frequently), in terms of true graphics, an SGI (or a modern PC, of course) is a /bit/ hard to beat nowadays... - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 15:27:14 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 16:27:14 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51607D91.3020205@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> <51606C5D.9020204@neurotica.com> <51607D91.3020205@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51608522.8090200@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 03:54 PM, MG wrote: >> While I generally like The Register, they're reporting on things that are >> seen out in the wild everywhere, things that are trendy, and things that are >> used to deliver Java web services. Mainframes are not trendy...they just >> keep the world going 'round. While some companies (like web hosting >> companies) loudly tout what they run, most banks, hospitals, etc generally >> do not. > > VMS gets the same treatment, but probably deservedly so, eh? It's just > the poor, poor, mainframes that are 'getting it'. Very unfair indeed. *sigh* Troll. > >> If they were no longer profitable, or in demand, they'd no longer be >> available. > > If they were so incredibly profitable, why isn't IBM releasing loads of > new "z" things They are. I can see you don't much keep up with the news. > and trying to get one into every major education mill; > you know, to make sure that there will be enough know-how to keep these > /very profitable/ things up and running...? Why would they? They're doing fine. The banks haven't stopped buying them, and that's who matters in that world. >> Most of the people who have been proclaiming "mainframes are dead!" >> for the past, oh THIRTY YEARS are the ones selling other types of >> systems. > > They weren't wrong though, maybe a bit early with their prediction at > most. Oh, of course. I must've missed the entire financial world's transition to PCs. It must've been sometime last week. Since IBM continues to introduce new mainframes at about the same pace that they always have, and continues to pour GIGANTIC amounts of money into their development, maybe you should go visit them and tell them about the sad state of their market, since you clearly know so much better than they do. You could probably save the company, what with all that unprofitable business they're doing. They might even make you president! >> Nobody likes a smartass. Just FYI. > > Touchy subject? Not really...I just don't like trolls. Or pricks with chips on their shoulders who make loud assertions about things that they clearly know JACK POINT SHIT about. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 15:40:43 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 22:40:43 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 21:54, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Ok Sparky, whatever you say. A bit of a (stereo-)typical response of an IBM advocate/apologist. Don't kill the messenger. All that I'm doing is stating what I've been observing. It's a plain fact that hardly anyone knows what an IBM mainframe is. I'm sure there are even people --- like those born in the 1990s and beyond --- who don't even know what IBM is. It doesn't help for IBM that they're completely invisible to most people nowadays. I'd love to try "z" sometime (or even something older, like an S/390), but IBM isn't exactly making that very easy for people like myself, now are they? VMS has the excellent "Hobbyist Program", maybe IBM should perhaps consider something similar? Although, even that has not saved VMS and it's in a terrible shape. But, more people have heard of it and had a chance to use it than "z", that's for damn sure. - MG From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 15:42:52 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 16:42:52 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51607D91.3020205@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> <51606C5D.9020204@neurotica.com> <51607D91.3020205@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > If they were so incredibly profitable, why isn't IBM releasing loads of > new "z" things and trying to get one into every major education mill; > you know, to make sure that there will be enough know-how to keep these > /very profitable/ things up and running...? That is the job of the p line of machines (aka RS/6000). Anyway, IBM has has the "Master the Mainframe" program in schools for a few years now. And one of the problems, of course, is trying to sell a mainframe to the bunches of die hard Unix fanatics that dominate the educational system. IBM could gift z machines to a bunch of schools, and after a month of so, I bet most or all would be running Linux. > They weren't wrong though, maybe a bit early with their prediction at > most. The past 25 years has shown us that mainframes are dying, but as I posted, that rate seems to have leveled off. It seems that mainframes have died as much as they are going to die. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 6 15:20:44 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 21:20:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is it? In-Reply-To: <515F54B6.4090607@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 5, 13 03:48:22 pm Message-ID: > > The problem pretty much solved yesterday (Thursday) on Erik's VCF. My > guess is that it simply takes that long for some messages to post. Is there some kind of automatic link between this mailing ist and the forum? I wasn't aware of one. I am not on the forum (AFAIK), if you (and others) expect that all of us are both on the forum and this list, I have to ask what the point is of having both. And if I am not jus the only person to be on the mailing list and not the forum, I think it's hardly suprising that there will be replies on one that are very similar to replies on the other. > > Part in question is the 74S288 bipolar PROM and used in the Do you know this for a fact, or is it just based o nthe pinout? > write-precomp portion of the 820 FDC board. Fortunately, the OP managed > to find the reference design for the WD179x. Right... Incidentalyl, one machine, I think it was the Rainbow, had a little state machine using a bipolar PROM and a bit of TTL on the FDC board. This was not anythign to do with write precompensation. Instead, it encoded a spare ynchronous serial channel into MFM. This was then sed to verify the operation of the FDC chip during the POST. NEver seen anyone else go to those lengths, -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 6 15:14:51 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 21:14:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F5208.1000905@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 5, 13 06:36:56 pm Message-ID: [Blowers] > I'm suggesting that they might be three-phase, as they are in many other Of course. I really myst try to keep awake... > large VAXen. (I've never worked on the innards of an 11/780 myself) As > you're likely aware, in some VAXen the ONLY three-phase component(s) is/are > the blowers. I am suprised -- that they're 3-phase, not that nothing else in the CPU is. I wouldn't have thoguth the power required for the blowers justified a 3 phase motor, in fact I would have thought a number of smaller single-phase blowers could be more reliable (If one phase fails, at least there is some airflow through the machine, OK, the PSU would be shut down if a phase fials (I would hope -- does the power controller do this?) but having some airflow remainign wouldn';t hurt. No, I don't have an 11/780 either, I don't have the space. So I hav the other classic VAX that I would have a chance at being able to repair. -- the 11/730 (OK, an 11/725 would do as well). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 6 15:42:28 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 21:42:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? Message-ID: Since my father passed away a couple of months ago I have been giving serious thoguth to making a formal wil myself (when my father was around, he would have known who to contact about various things). My first ;'choice' is to give everything to a personal friend who has been on this list. He shares enough of my interests that he will realise what is valuable and what is perhaps not so valuable. But the problem is tha said friend is about the same age as me, and it is not certainn he wil loutlive me. Of course if he passes away long before me, I can producve a new will, but it is worth putting a clause in the one I am currently writing to say what happens if he is not around. Now, as well as my classic computers there's also cmaeras, books, tools, test gear, other electronci stuff, etc. I would rather leave everything to one person/orgnaisation (rather than say 'the classic computers go to , the tools go to , etc) or worse still 'I leave my PDP11/45 system to ', etc. In the latter case if I have, say, swapped my 11/45 for an 11/790 at some point then gets nothing, even though it was probably my intention that he would get the 11/70. In the former case, there could be disputes as to what category certain things fall into -- is the 'Datacopy 300' (an early digital camera that needs a classic PERQ to run it) a 'classic computer peripheral' or a 'camera', for example. Does anyone have any serious suggestions for an organisation (and yes, I am considering computer museums here, no matyter what I may have said i nthe past) who would be prepared to take the lot and pass on that which was of no use to them to other organisations or enthusiasts? -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 16:07:53 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 17:07:53 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51608EA9.9050109@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 01:59 PM, David Riley wrote: > I wouldn't swear to the fact that there weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit > systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while > 11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better > than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to > do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs). Nearly all KDF11-A boards (the dual-wide version) actually do support 22-bit addressing. I believe it was etch rev "C" that added 22-bit support. I've had many KDF11s over the years; I don't think I've seen any of the non-22-bit-capable ones. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 16:09:38 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 17:09:38 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51608F12.7060903@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 04:40 PM, MG wrote: > On 6-apr-2013 21:54, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Ok Sparky, whatever you say. > > A bit of a (stereo-)typical response of an IBM advocate/apologist. You'd be wrong about that. I'm a UNIX guy. I'm impressed with IBM's big stuff, but that's not the world I work in. Yours is a bit of a (stereo-)typical response of either a PC salesman or YET ANOTHER mailing list troll. Just sayin'.. > Don't kill the messenger. All that I'm doing is stating what I've > been observing. It's a plain fact that hardly anyone knows what > an IBM mainframe is. I'm sure there are even people --- like those > born in the 1990s and beyond --- who don't even know what IBM is. > It doesn't help for IBM that they're completely invisible to most > people nowadays. They don't need to be "visible to people". Mainframes aren't mass-market game-playing machines. They need to be visible to BANKS, and other big-data, can't-go-down-no-matter-what industries, which is the world that they OWN. Whether you happen to like it, or agree with it, or not. > I'd love to try "z" sometime (or even something older, like an > S/390), but IBM isn't exactly making that very easy for people > like myself, now are they? Why would they? Do you think they have some need for people like yourself, who seems to think they're "dead" anyway? Note to self: Stop feeding the troll! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 16:29:33 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 17:29:33 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > A bit of a (stereo-)typical response of an IBM advocate/apologist. Please. I am the IBM apologist around here. > Don't kill the messenger. All that I'm doing is stating what I've > been observing. It's a plain fact that hardly anyone knows what > an IBM mainframe is. I'm sure there are even people --- like those > born in the 1990s and beyond --- who don't even know what IBM is. What you say is true - most people, even professionals, do not know what a mainframe was or is. The problem is that you are not observing things as they are. Much of this is due to the outlook that Unix (and Windows) people have - you assume the mainframe is dead, so you look no further, and continue assuming the mainframe is dead. The mainframe will not find you, and will not inform you. > It doesn't help for IBM that they're completely invisible to most > people nowadays. In the mainframe market, being invisible has advantages. > I'd love to try "z" sometime (or even something older, like an > S/390), but IBM isn't exactly making that very easy for people > like myself, now are they? No, and some mainframe people think this is a problem. I think it would be great to have some sort of program. However, IBM is quite protective of its IP. > VMS has the excellent "Hobbyist Program", maybe IBM should > perhaps consider something similar? Although, even that has > not saved VMS and it's in a terrible shape. But, more people > have heard of it and had a chance to use it than "z", that's > for damn sure. That would be due to the educational system. Before Unix ruled universities, VMS did (and other DECthings). -- Will From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Apr 6 16:29:21 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 17:29:21 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516093B1.70802@verizon.net> On 04/06/2013 03:53 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 6 April 2013 13:59, David Riley wrote: > >> I wouldn't swear to the fact that there weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit >> systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while >> 11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better >> than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to >> do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs). >> >> >> I don't know anything about how DEC sold their machines, but I do believe > they did sell the 11/23 as an 18-bit system (even though the KDF11A is very > much capable of 22-bit), as I remember there is a "PDP-11/23" version of > the BA11-N box (with H9273-A, the BA11-N always has the H9273-A; except > special OEM boxes that might just have an H9275-A -- or a hobbyist (or The 11/23 was sole in many variants and price points including raw boards for OEM system integrators (Bridgeport machine tool for example). the initial 11/23 was avaiable with and without MMU the non mmu part was close to using the 11/2 also 16bit. Early MMUs had apparently a bug and were limited to full performance 18bits. Later production was full 22bit. I actually have all varient of the LSI-11 (11/03), F11 (11/23) and a few J11(11/73) plus the T11 (falcon KXT11). > company that was too cheap/clever to get a 23+ box) who has upgraded their > BA11-N to an H9275-A); as well as a "PDP-11/03L" version of the BA11-N box > (the difference between the two being only the front plate, which on the > 11/03-L version is all white, including the "background" of the logotype, > while the 11/23 has the "background" of the logo painted black (to make it > more visible)). There were outside companies that built custom system s but DEC had their own groups (computer special systems CSS). Other that came to mind were Charles River Data systems where the CPU was DEC and the rest was a mix of compatible boards and other third party boards (Amperx, CRDS, CMD...) and boxes. > > The 11/23+ comes in the BA11-S box, which while also a 9-slot long > backplane, is the H9276-A backplane which is by default a Q22/CD backplane; > I don't think the H9275-A can fit into a BA11-S box, though. > Also the BA11 box is existent in not less than 5 or more flavors with varying backplanes, power supplies, and distribution panels. Many evolved over time. I have BA11S that (factory) have at least four different backplanes. I also live 10 MI from DEC and worked there for 10 years. The H9275 can be fitted, the standard connecting cables may or may not match up but can be had made easily. I've even put the backplane from the BA32 in a BA11. The form caxtor is very standardized though the interconnect for power varies with molex or terminal barrier strips being used. > > I really want to get my hands on a PDP-11/03L version of the BA11-N box; > I'm still trying to replace my "lost" PDP-11 system, and at present all > I've got is a CPU and an H9275-A backplane. (I like the "all white" front > plate, looks nicer in my opinion.) Nevermind that though, I'm going astray > of the original topic. The original had the black plate the later ones were white and part of the then "corporate cabs" in 30, 40, 50, 60 and 72 inch heights. The difference was the later racks had rounded corners to the side panels. Never mind the MINC systems in their own unique packages. It's important to know DEC sold "packaged sytems", custom systems and special contract systems and the best example of the later being those for Telephone company. Any of those found in the wild may have morphed into something very different from how it was sold. Allison From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 16:51:01 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 23:51:01 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51608522.8090200@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> <51606C5D.9020204@neurotica.com> <51607D91.3020205@xs4all.nl> <51608522.8090200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516098C5.10704@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 22:27, Dave McGuire wrote: > *sigh* Troll. You really shouldn't get so 'emotional' over these things. > They are. I can see you don't much keep up with the news. I realize this is a retro/classic computing mailing list, but... > Why would they? They're doing fine. The banks haven't stopped > buying them, and that's who matters in that world. But the NonStop and other people tell me exactly the same. Who am I supposed to believe? Also, how would that plead well for the platform considering the recent wave of issues with the internet banking? (Especially here in Europe, which has been in the news the last few days.) > Oh, of course. I must've missed the entire financial world's > transition to PCs. It must've been sometime last week. Not (just) the financial world. But yes, you probably did... > Since IBM continues to introduce new mainframes at about the same > pace that they always have Which is probably too slow for nowadays. > and continues to pour GIGANTIC amounts of money into their development, Not enough likely. > maybe you should go visit them and tell them about the sad state of > their market The last contact I had with IBM, via e-mail, I only got a bunch of badly written e-mail messages with very serious, repeated, grammar mistakes and a quote of EUR 350/hr. for a temporary so-called 'service contract'. Yet, all I wanted to do was verify some part numbers (and IBM sure loves [ab]using those and many of them, too!) From then on, I realized I was a few million short to be heard by IBM. >> Touchy subject? > > Not really...I just don't like trolls. Or pricks with chips on their > shoulders who make loud assertions about things that they clearly know JACK > POINT SHIT about. /Fortunately/, for a minute I thought it was a touchy subject! LOL. - MG From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 6 16:59:27 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 14:59:27 -0700 Subject: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51609ABF.3010706@sydex.com> On 04/06/2013 01:20 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I am not on the forum (AFAIK), if you (and others) expect that all of > us are both on the forum and this list, I have to ask what the point is > of having both. And if I am not jus the only person to be on the mailing > list and not the forum, I think it's hardly suprising that there will be > replies on one that are very similar to replies on the other. That happens quite a bit, Tony. Erik's VCF tends to be oriented more toward personal microcomputers (IBM-style PCs, Apple, Commodore, etc.) although some more unusual stuff does show up, such as the guy reconstructing a Honeywell H200 system. > Incidentalyl, one machine, I think it was the Rainbow, had a little > state machine using a bipolar PROM and a bit of TTL on the FDC board. > This was not anythign to do with write precompensation. Instead, it > encoded a spare ynchronous serial channel into MFM. This was then sed to > verify the operation of the FDC chip during the POST. NEver seen anyone > else go to those lengths, I misspoke in my earlier post (I had something else on my mind). The subject PROM is part of a data separator circuit. It's been suggested by one poster that it might be simpler to replace the 2-chip separator with a WD9216. But that wouldn't be any fun... --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Apr 6 17:01:42 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 18:01:42 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51609B46.90907@verizon.net> On 04/06/2013 12:34 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > allison wrote: >> Look uo the backplan to find out its configuration. > >From my initial posting: >>> It is the BA11 variety and contains a H9273 backplane, which as far as I could find out is QQ-CD > Am I missing something here? > >> Also read the fine manual for the quad width 11/23 you will find there >> are jumpers/switches for use in AB/CD backplanes. Most quad width cards also conform to that. > Also from my initial posting: >>> The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured >>> for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another >>> environment to avoid shorting signals together) > Am I missing something here? Yes, some of the backplanes and the cpu board have jumpesr that need to be correct and matching. ITs why in the previous I suggested that you Read The Fine Manual. The DEC PDP11 Microcomputer handbooks are important reference s to all this and much more. Without them you are working blind. I have full sets spanning the years and it fills about 5 ft (1.5M) of linear shelf space. I consider them as more important than the hardware. While much of it is on the net I find it harder to scan for a specific item like the default jumpers for DLV11J. The books have a bit of wear from actual use. >> CD lines are needed for RL11 controller (two board RL01/02 controller). > Ah, thanks. Alas I've already been promised the single board variety of that option. > >> And if all else fails you can replace the backplane with one that is >> AB/AB as I've done that many times. > Thereby sacrificing the option of integrating any CD-dependent boards I might happen across in the future. Best idea I could think of until now would be a mixed (Q/CD - Q/Q) layout backplane, but I do not know whether these even exist in the required 9-slot form factor. Anyway, I think I'll treat the backplane as a given constant right now (except from probably expanding it to Q-22, see below) and look for the "right" boards to populate it. > > David Riley wrote: >> The H9273 is perfectly compatible with an 11/23 CPU; there >> is a jumper you can set for 18-bit use. Obviously, though, >> turning it into a 22-bit backplane is preferable. >> Fortunately, that's pretty easy. > Meh...I've been hearing that I might run into problems with some other processors (LSI-11(/2), very early KDF11-A versions), should I ever need to use the backplane as a test platform for one of those in the future. Is that problem the one simply worked around with some insulating tape over the BDAL18:21 connector pads? > >>> The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured >>> for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another >>> environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful" use of the CD lanes. >> Correct. The Qbus PDP-11s only used the CD lane for PMI >> (or custom logic, if you had that). > Sounds interesting, could you elaborate? PMI (private Memory interconnect) was limited to the 11/73 KDJ11 cpus or later. However the 11/23 uad has jumper that need to be correct for the backplane used and some of the backplanes also have jumpers for the different CPUs. >> I'd get the M8189 if you >> can, because it saves you the hassle of finding boot ROM >> and serial cards for the console. > Good, as it seems someone found one of these for me. yes, the dual width card only runs uODT and that means typing in a boot every time or a TEV11, MRV11 (rom card) with valid boot. The 11/23 M8189 has three flavors and the main difference is what the on board boot roms have for device boots. The early ones cannot boot MSCP devices such as the RQDXn. One way to cheat that is find a set of compatible EProms or boot RT11 from RX02 or TU58 and load a MSCP device handler and then you can boot from the MSCP. Or MOP load via a serial (or SYNC) port from a suitable host. >>> What are these intended for anyway (I was thinking of some sort of PMI predecessor, probably >>> wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine? >> For an 11/23, those lanes will just go unused. It's not >> so bad, really; you have to try pretty hard to fill up 9 >> slots. > I'd thought so; perhaps I'll happen across some esoteric cards that use them, or I'll hack something custom in there. Most esoteric cards are odd enough that if not fully documented they may be unsafe to even use or they are part of a unique hardware system that used CD totally independent of the CPU system. I have a few like that (part of a machine control system) that require a pair of 16bit parallel IO board to communicate with the CPU and the CD bus only supplies power (it has its own interconnect over the top). FYI that was used to control a bridgeport mill (3 axis). The only common card set that depends on CD is RL11 The two board RL01/02 controller and it's only 18bit capable, if you working with 22bit system (fully populated with ram) then you need the RLV21 which is a single quad board and works in all backplanes... oh and also RL02 drives, a 40" rack minimum, plus a good back! PPS oh, I have at least two that have all slots filled! Its way to easy to plug in IO. For example RLV21 quad width, RQDX3 dual, TKQ50 (dual) TK50, RXV21 (dual) RX02 drive controller, DZV11 serial IO(quad), LPV11 parallel printer (dual), DEQNA (dual), full 4mb memory (3 quad boards). don't forget the CPU, 11/23B+ also a quad board. Thats 16 slots filled plus two grant cards total 18 making a full box. The grant cards allow for optimal board placement and are required to keep the DMA and interrupt vector chain complete. >> If it's in >> a box labelled 11/23, though, check to make sure someone >> hasn't already performed the modification. > OK, thanks! > In the end the whole Q22 this is only an issue when you exceed 256Kbytes of memory as the Q22 allowed the MMU to reach 4MB of ram. Allison From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 17:07:09 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 18:07:09 -0400 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: <1365253206.48217.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1365253206.48217.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 6 April 2013 09:00, P Gebhardt wrote: > I had a look through my tapes and found one from Control Data being > labeled "Total Service Tape". > Does anybody know, if this tape also serves as an alignment tape? I > couldn't find any information about that on the Net so far. > I'm not an expert, but isn't that just the marketing name for CDC's more higher quality tape? (It was either "Total Service Tape" or "Alpha Phi" that was high quality, or both, I don't know.) Cheers, Christian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 6 17:08:53 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 23:08:53 +0100 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013c01ce3313$55063b30$ff12b190$@ntlworld.com> Sorry to hear about your father. I remember you saying he was not well a while ago. Funnily enough, although my collection is far more modest, I have been thinking about this a little bit too just lately as I need to make a will. I think my preference would be a serious collector interested in keeping the machines running (or getting them to run where I have failed), but I am interested in any suggestions. My fear with museums is that they would just go into storage and never be seen or appreciated again. My particular dilemma is that I would like at least something to remain in the family, but I don't know whether I should encourage my children to sell or give away the rest since a fair proportion of what I have was given to me, although I have bought some items. One thing is for sure, I am going to stipulate that nothing should be just thrown away. UK-specific suggestions welcome. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 06 April 2013 21:42 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > > Since my father passed away a couple of months ago I have been giving > serious thoguth to making a formal wil myself (when my father was around, > he would have known who to contact about various things). > > My first ;'choice' is to give everything to a personal friend who has been on > this list. He shares enough of my interests that he will realise what is > valuable and what is perhaps not so valuable. But the problem is tha said > friend is about the same age as me, and it is not certainn he wil loutlive me. > Of course if he passes away long before me, I can producve a new will, but it > is worth putting a clause in the one I am currently writing to say what > happens if he is not around. > > Now, as well as my classic computers there's also cmaeras, books, tools, > test gear, other electronci stuff, etc. > > I would rather leave everything to one person/orgnaisation (rather than say > 'the classic computers go to , the tools go to , etc) or worse still 'I > leave my PDP11/45 system to ', etc. In the latter case if I have, say, > swapped my 11/45 for an 11/790 at some point then gets nothing, > even though it was probably my intention that he would get the 11/70. In > the former case, there could be disputes as to what category certain things > fall into -- is the 'Datacopy 300' (an early digital camera that needs a classic > PERQ to run it) a 'classic computer peripheral' or a 'camera', for example. > > Does anyone have any serious suggestions for an organisation (and yes, I am > considering computer museums here, no matyter what I may have said i > nthe past) who would be prepared to take the lot and pass on that which > was of no use to them to other organisations or enthusiasts? > > -tony From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Apr 6 17:10:10 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 15:10:10 -0700 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9873B1DB-5A1C-44FC-B6CD-DC5EE0C50A43@shiresoft.com> On Apr 6, 2013, at 1:42 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Since my father passed away a couple of months ago I have been giving > serious thoguth to making a formal wil myself (when my father was around, > he would have known who to contact about various things). > > My first ;'choice' is to give everything to a personal friend who has > been on this list. He shares enough of my interests that he will realise > what is valuable and what is perhaps not so valuable. But the problem is > tha said friend is about the same age as me, and it is not certainn he > wil loutlive me. Of course if he passes away long before me, I can > producve a new will, but it is worth putting a clause in the one I am > currently writing to say what happens if he is not around. > > Now, as well as my classic computers there's also cmaeras, books, tools, > test gear, other electronci stuff, etc. > > I would rather leave everything to one person/orgnaisation (rather than > say 'the classic computers go to , the tools go to , etc) or worse > still 'I leave my PDP11/45 system to ', etc. In the latter case if I > have, say, swapped my 11/45 for an 11/790 at some point then gets > nothing, even though it was probably my intention that he would get the > 11/70. In the former case, there could be disputes as to what category > certain things fall into -- is the 'Datacopy 300' (an early digital camera > that needs a classic PERQ to run it) a 'classic computer peripheral' or a > 'camera', for example. > > Does anyone have any serious suggestions for an organisation (and yes, I > am considering computer museums here, no matyter what I may have said i > nthe past) who would be prepared to take the lot and pass on that which > was of no use to them to other organisations or enthusiasts? What I have done for my will was to designate someone who will responsibly "dispose" of my collection. Here in the 'states another way to handle this is to set up a "trust" with a trustee and move all of the "assets" into the trust prior to "the end" and specify as part of the trust how the assets are to be disposed of (usually the person whose assets are going into the trust is also the trustee until "the end" at which point another trustee is specified usually as part of the will). Of course to do this properly, you should seek financial/legal advice. I'm just indicating what (in *very* general terms) what I've done. TTFN - Guy From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Apr 6 17:12:35 2013 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 15:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RL drive select plugs. What is magic about 3? Message-ID: <1365286355.33876.YahooMailClassic@web120505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I've been doing a bit with an 11/23+ setup and a few RL drives, and I've run into something odd. I currently have select plugs 0, 1 and 3. If I plug in two drives, 0 and 1, I can boot from either one, and once in RT11, I can access the other one. Easy. If I connect two drives, 0 and 3, however - I can only use drive 0. All accesses to drive 3 result in an error. Can't boot from it, can't access it from RT11. Thinking that maybe the plugs had to be in order, I connected only one drive, drive 1, and was able to boot it and use it just fine. Then, swapping the 3 plug into that single drive, can't boot from it. And I've shuffled this plug around into a couple of drives, and none of them work with it. There's no damage to the plug itself, and all the drives work otherwise. Unfortunately, I don't have enough cables to connect more than two drives at once. I also don't have a drive 2 plug to try. And yes, I have a terminator. Any ideas? -Ian From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 17:14:08 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 18:14:08 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: <51608EA9.9050109@neurotica.com> References: <51608EA9.9050109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <59F3CD69-A076-41D3-B640-E3C666201C85@gmail.com> On Apr 6, 2013, at 17:07, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/06/2013 01:59 PM, David Riley wrote: >> I wouldn't swear to the fact that there weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit >> systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while >> 11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better >> than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to >> do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs). > > Nearly all KDF11-A boards (the dual-wide version) actually do support > 22-bit addressing. I believe it was etch rev "C" that added 22-bit support. > I've had many KDF11s over the years; I don't think I've seen any of the > non-22-bit-capable ones. Oh yes, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Very few extant KDF-11s are 18-bit. All I meant to say was that I wasn't 100% sure what the distinguishing feature for the "plus" in the 11/23+ was, but I'm pretty sure it was one of those two. Most likely the KDF11-B. - Dave From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sat Apr 6 17:19:37 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 00:19:37 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) Message-ID: David Riley wrote: > Well, you *could* work around it that way. I guess Kapton would > probably be a good bet. You're very unlikely to be using early LSI-11 > boards unless you're a true masochist (...) Uhm, people have already been calling me that (in a classiccmp context!), so... > Be aware that if you're using the system as 18-bit, you'll > need to make sure that your peripheral cards are jumpered to 18-bit if > necessary (boards that use DMA often need to know). > The 22-bit conversion is also easy to undo, assuming you're handy with > a soldering iron (...) For me, undoing that would be about as easy as looking up > which pins to cover and then covering them with tape (...) Hmm, I'm just "planning for eventualities"; Basically I want to build a system that runs in a 22-bit configuration, but I'm trying to make sure I can still stick in 18-bit CPUs (or other cards) for a quick test after I do the conversion. >> (or custom logic, if you had that). > Sounds interesting, could you elaborate? > > (...) There were probably quite a few other board sets that used > the CD lines for inter-board communication (...) > (very nice description of CD interconnect principles) Definitly an option I would want to keep. Too bad there aren't any 9-slot mixed layout backplanes, but as DEC compatible backplane connectors seem to surface sometimes, so I see at least the possibility of constructing one, should the need materialize. > I wouldn't swear to the fact that there weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit > systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while > 11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better > than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to > do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs). Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > I don't know anything about how DEC sold their machines, but I do believe > they did sell the 11/23 as an 18-bit system (even though the KDF11A is very > much capable of 22-bit) (...) Hmm, let's see... >From http://www.people.vcu.edu/~agnew/MVAX/9412_DECUSERVE_JNL.HTML (supposedly extracted from Micronote #5 dated 23-Apr-84): > RESTRICTED COMPATIBILITY OPTIONS: > > PROCESSORS: > > KDF11-A M8186 LSI-11/23 CPU > Prior to etch rev. C, 18-bit addressing only, > and use of BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 for purposes > other than BDAL18-21. ...so the systems using these earlier revisions, while being 11/23s by definition, would have to be based on 18-bit backplanes due to the nonstandard signals. This is also consistent with Christian's statement: > as I remember there is a "PDP-11/23" version of > the BA11-N box (with H9273-A, the BA11-N always has the H9273-A) I think I actually might be having the remains of such an early system, as it says "11/23" on the outside but holds an (18-bit) H9273 backplane inside. Alas I haven't readily found a DEC source on what actually is the PLUS in an 11/23+. Thank you so far, Arno From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 17:29:56 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 22:29:56 +0000 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> What area are you located again? Folks may be able to help know what museums are close by. -----Original Message----- From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 21:42:28 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? Since my father passed away a couple of months ago I have been giving serious thoguth to making a formal wil myself (when my father was around, he would have known who to contact about various things). My first ;'choice' is to give everything to a personal friend who has been on this list. He shares enough of my interests that he will realise what is valuable and what is perhaps not so valuable. But the problem is tha said friend is about the same age as me, and it is not certainn he wil loutlive me. Of course if he passes away long before me, I can producve a new will, but it is worth putting a clause in the one I am currently writing to say what happens if he is not around. Now, as well as my classic computers there's also cmaeras, books, tools, test gear, other electronci stuff, etc. I would rather leave everything to one person/orgnaisation (rather than say 'the classic computers go to , the tools go to , etc) or worse still 'I leave my PDP11/45 system to ', etc. In the latter case if I have, say, swapped my 11/45 for an 11/790 at some point then gets nothing, even though it was probably my intention that he would get the 11/70. In the former case, there could be disputes as to what category certain things fall into -- is the 'Datacopy 300' (an early digital camera that needs a classic PERQ to run it) a 'classic computer peripheral' or a 'camera', for example. Does anyone have any serious suggestions for an organisation (and yes, I am considering computer museums here, no matyter what I may have said i nthe past) who would be prepared to take the lot and pass on that which was of no use to them to other organisations or enthusiasts? -tony From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 17:31:52 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 00:31:52 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51608F12.7060903@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <51608F12.7060903@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5160A258.1090103@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 23:09, Dave McGuire wrote: > You'd be wrong about that. I'm a UNIX guy. I'm impressed with > IBM'sbig stuff, but that's not the world I work in. Why do you care then? You get overly emotional for something you're not even involved with. > Yours is a bit of a (stereo-)typical response of either a PC > salesmanor YET ANOTHER mailing list troll. Just sayin'.. Bringing out the big guns, calling me a "PC salesman". Is that the best you can do? Even using one of IBM's own little demon spawn, the PC, which is now undoing their sacred mainframe. It is irony at its best, isn't it? Are you capable of a normal conversation, or are you simply outgunned so fast and need to resort to weird ad hominem remarks? > They don't need to be "visible to people". People, i.e. /little people/, right? > Mainframes aren't mass-market game-playing machines. That actually reminded me of this weird 'gem'... (That I saw years ago.) > They need to be visible to BANKS, and other big-data, can't-go-down- > no-matter-what industries, which is the world that they OWN. Again, the NonStop and VMS people will claim the same. I'm (still) not impressed or convinced. In fact, Linux (particularly the Red Hat) crowd will claim the same and even more so once things like Serviceguard start to become available for it. > Whether you happen to like it, or agree with it, or not. Did you even read that Register article, or are you so convinced of IBM's propaganda? Hilariously, when I search on the 'net for "mainframe", in the top results there are denials and negations like "mainframes aren't dead" and "why the mainframe isn't dead", like also on YouTube and of IBM itself. In other words, hilarious stuff (when you have a few minutes to kill; that's all that IBM spent on that video). > Why would they? Do you think they have some need for people > likeyourself, who seems to think they're "dead" anyway? It's just /me/? They should be grateful I've even heard of it and show /some/ interest. (Which gradually degrades with every encounter with IBM zealots, like yourself.) - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 17:39:45 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 00:39:45 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 23:29, William Donzelli wrote: > What you say is true - most people, even professionals, do not know > what a mainframe was or is. The problem is that you are not observing > things as they are. Much of this is due to the outlook that Unix (and > Windows) people have - you assume the mainframe is dead, so you look > no further, and continue assuming the mainframe is dead. The mainframe > will not find you, and will not inform you. Not how capitalism typically works, though. > In the mainframe market, being invisible has advantages. In the /market/ market, it has serious disadvantages. > No, and some mainframe people think this is a problem. I think it > would be great to have some sort of program. However, IBM is quite > protective of its IP. Why and how would it harm its IP, wouldn't it expand it or give it a wider user base? Especially also considering the fact that illicit copies of "z" operating systems are reportedly floating around on the internet. Seriously, what is it with this weird 'elitism'? ('Mainframe royalty'?) > That would be due to the educational system. Before Unix ruled > universities, VMS did (and other DECthings). Not sure, but it's pretty much a Windows-dominated mess now. (With here and there also the token OS X system, although a bit pricey.) Fortunately, many education mills allow their students to purchase any laptop. But, often if it doesn't have Windows installed or running inside some virtualized environment, it can be at the student's disadvantage (as I've also experienced myself). - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 17:49:27 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 00:49:27 +0200 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5160A677.3000803@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 2:00, Chuck Guzis wrote: > More to the point, even when I put a term in quotes, Google will still > insist on grabbing things "like" it, often ahead of verbatim results. > This really throws a monkey wrench into trying to come up with precise > searches. That is indeed rather annoying, although it's relatively speaking nothing compared to Google's more malicious practices (involving their infamous data mining efforts). - MG From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 17:52:20 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 17:52:20 -0500 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <013c01ce3313$55063b30$ff12b190$@ntlworld.com> References: <013c01ce3313$55063b30$ff12b190$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: cameras? On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Sorry to hear about your father. I remember you saying he was not well a > while ago. > > Funnily enough, although my collection is far more modest, I have been > thinking about this a little bit too just lately as I need to make a will. > I > think my preference would be a serious collector interested in keeping the > machines running (or getting them to run where I have failed), but I am > interested in any suggestions. My fear with museums is that they would just > go into storage and never be seen or appreciated again. My particular > dilemma is that I would like at least something to remain in the family, > but > I don't know whether I should encourage my children to sell or give away > the > rest since a fair proportion of what I have was given to me, although I > have > bought some items. One thing is for sure, I am going to stipulate that > nothing should be just thrown away. > > UK-specific suggestions welcome. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: 06 April 2013 21:42 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > > > > Since my father passed away a couple of months ago I have been giving > > serious thoguth to making a formal wil myself (when my father was around, > > he would have known who to contact about various things). > > > > My first ;'choice' is to give everything to a personal friend who has > been > on > > this list. He shares enough of my interests that he will realise what is > > valuable and what is perhaps not so valuable. But the problem is tha said > > friend is about the same age as me, and it is not certainn he wil > loutlive > me. > > Of course if he passes away long before me, I can producve a new will, > but > it > > is worth putting a clause in the one I am currently writing to say what > > happens if he is not around. > > > > Now, as well as my classic computers there's also cmaeras, books, tools, > > test gear, other electronci stuff, etc. > > > > I would rather leave everything to one person/orgnaisation (rather than > say > > 'the classic computers go to , the tools go to , etc) or worse > still > 'I > > leave my PDP11/45 system to ', etc. In the latter case if I have, > say, > > swapped my 11/45 for an 11/790 at some point then gets nothing, > > even though it was probably my intention that he would get the 11/70. In > > the former case, there could be disputes as to what category certain > things > > fall into -- is the 'Datacopy 300' (an early digital camera that needs a > classic > > PERQ to run it) a 'classic computer peripheral' or a 'camera', for > example. > > > > Does anyone have any serious suggestions for an organisation (and yes, I > am > > considering computer museums here, no matyter what I may have said i > > nthe past) who would be prepared to take the lot and pass on that which > > was of no use to them to other organisations or enthusiasts? > > > > -tony > > From colineby at isallthat.com Sat Apr 6 18:10:24 2013 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 00:10:24 +0100 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: <1365253206.48217.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1365253206.48217.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <975726A4-6B0E-4EE6-BB5E-B518CAA638B6@isallthat.com> Pierre, Full disclaimer?. I seen this done once, and was merely an active spectator. There ends my expertise. Here's what we did: If you don't have a alignment tape, you might try simply creating a /dev/zero tape from a known good drive. Scope the pre-amp signal you should get a sine wave on a PE deck, and see some blocking effect when you zoom out. You'll have to take your time to dial in a internal trigger signal to pick this up, since the drive may take all clocking from the tape. Once you get that far you continue more or less akin the process of focusing a lens until you get the best possible signal. You will ideally want to do this while scoping both centre and outside channels, and swapping periodically for the other outside channel. A secondary alignment effect will include skew. The wave forms for these outer channels should be roughly the same level of advance or retard from the central signal. Vertical rotation of the head will affect the skew. Vertical position will affect centring on best signal. You might then make fine adjustments if accessible on this model to get an even amplitude from the amplifier itself. I'm not expert, but we've been having a play with something similar recently in mounting a new head on an old deck. Those rough adjustments should help you get a base alignment before doing manufacturer software diagnostics to dial in fine-tuning. -Colin On 6 Apr 2013, at 14:00, P Gebhardt wrote: > Hi everybody, > > I had a look through my tapes and found one from Control Data being labeled "Total Service Tape". > Does anybody know, if this tape also serves as an alignment tape? I couldn't find any information about that on the Net so far. > > I've been trying to resurrect one of my Fujitsu M2442AC tape drives. Even with heads cleaned,it fails the diagnostics when it comes to writing and reading a tape. > It turned out that the drive head being held by a plastic plate was loose due to the plastic plate being broken. > I tried to glue the plastic together, mounted the head back into its position, but the drive diagnostics still fails (error: F300 ). > > Azimuth-adjusting the head after remouting obviously needs an alignment tape. Having quite a collection of reel tape drives, I thought it > would in any way make sense to have such a tape for head adjustment procedures, but they some to have become pretty rare these days (at least for 9-track 1/2" drives). > Substituting these special tapes by any other tricks or ways seems not to come close to the alignment precision obtained wich alignment tapes. > > > Thanks for any help in advance ! > Pierre > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ > From colineby at isallthat.com Sat Apr 6 18:31:44 2013 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 00:31:44 +0100 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony, I'm sorry for your loss as well. It's interesting to hear people's thoughts on this subject. I have something like 60 computers of varying kinds. Most of them aren't rare enough to be museum pieces. Quite a few of them are US only models which I didn't sell on before moving to the UK. My deal with myself was to stop collecting (hoarding) and do work with a museum. I think I do more retro-computing now than I ever did as a collector alone, and on much more interesting systems. I'd love to think I could just dump them all on the museum if I fell under a bus, but that's not fair on them. Who really needs a NTSC Atari 600XL with a 110 power supply in England? I might as well bin it for all the use it would be to anyone, or for the cost of posting it back to the states. And yet, that's the last thing I want to do. But at the same time, even as I sit here I know the collection is an albatross weighing on me. I don't even use them anymore. All my retro-computing energy goes into museum work. None of my family or work colleagues are interested? so what to do. Here my solution for what its worth -- eBay the lot, starting now. many of them at a loss, back to the US. Alternatively, maybe I'll do a VCF East with a stand. Either way, if I want them preserved, I'll end up having to pay for it. Anything I want to keep playing with goes to the museum here if it's not an unnecessary duplicate. If it is, then I eBay it and play with the museum's copy. I'd love for there to be an instant answer, but this whole divesting thing will take me years. But for me creating a 'collection' to pass on isn't really an option. I'll watch other responses with interest. -Colin On 6 Apr 2013, at 21:42, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Since my father passed away a couple of months ago I have been giving > serious thoguth to making a formal wil myself (when my father was around, > he would have known who to contact about various things). > > My first ;'choice' is to give everything to a personal friend who has > been on this list. He shares enough of my interests that he will realise > what is valuable and what is perhaps not so valuable. But the problem is > tha said friend is about the same age as me, and it is not certainn he > wil loutlive me. Of course if he passes away long before me, I can > producve a new will, but it is worth putting a clause in the one I am > currently writing to say what happens if he is not around. > > Now, as well as my classic computers there's also cmaeras, books, tools, > test gear, other electronci stuff, etc. > > I would rather leave everything to one person/orgnaisation (rather than > say 'the classic computers go to , the tools go to , etc) or worse > still 'I leave my PDP11/45 system to ', etc. In the latter case if I > have, say, swapped my 11/45 for an 11/790 at some point then gets > nothing, even though it was probably my intention that he would get the > 11/70. In the former case, there could be disputes as to what category > certain things fall into -- is the 'Datacopy 300' (an early digital camera > that needs a classic PERQ to run it) a 'classic computer peripheral' or a > 'camera', for example. > > Does anyone have any serious suggestions for an organisation (and yes, I > am considering computer museums here, no matyter what I may have said i > nthe past) who would be prepared to take the lot and pass on that which > was of no use to them to other organisations or enthusiasts? > > -tony > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 6 18:40:26 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 16:40:26 -0700 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> On 4/6/13 3:29 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Folks may be able to help know what museums are close by. > Museums are not landfills. Think about the fact that the longer the common stuff is around the more likely it will be that an artifact will already have been acquired for a collection. It is better to be thinking about finding other collectors than hoping a museum is going to want your stuff at some time in the indefinite future. If you really do have something rare enough a collecting institution would be interested in it, work out the details ahead of time. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 18:50:53 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 16:50:53 -0700 Subject: RL drive select plugs. What is magic about 3? In-Reply-To: <1365286355.33876.YahooMailClassic@web120505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1365286355.33876.YahooMailClassic@web120505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2013 4:03 PM, "Mr Ian Primus" wrote: > > I've been doing a bit with an 11/23+ setup and a few RL drives, and I've run into something odd. I currently have select plugs 0, 1 and 3. If I plug in two drives, 0 and 1, I can boot from either one, and once in RT11, I can access the other one. Easy. If I connect two drives, 0 and 3, however - I can only use drive 0. All accesses to drive 3 result in an error. Can't boot from it, can't access it from RT11. Thinking that maybe the plugs had to be in order, I connected only one drive, drive 1, and was able to boot it and use it just fine. Then, swapping the 3 plug into that single drive, can't boot from it. > Regenerate the system with 4 supported RL units instead of the default of 2. See the System Generation Guide. -Glen From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Apr 6 19:07:04 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 17:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/06/2013 03:45 PM, MG wrote: >> As far as I'm aware, it's not exactly 'allowed' to run (e.g.) "z" >> 'at home', not even for non-commercial/private reasons and end- >> uses/purposes. > > Wrong again. > > One day I will learn to avoid feeding the trolls. One day. > But today is not that day! Muahahahahahahahahha! *ahem* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jon at jonworld.com Sat Apr 6 19:30:11 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 20:30:11 -0400 Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> On Apr 6, 2013, at 7:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Museums are not landfills. I'm highjacking this thread. I'm debating starting a museum locally, as we don't have anything like this in the Indianapolis area. For those who have started such endeavors, what are your stories in getting the ball rolling? From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sat Apr 6 19:32:53 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 02:32:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) Message-ID: allison wrote: > The H9275 can be fitted, the standard connecting cables may or may not > match up but can be had made easily. > > I've even put the backplane from the BA32 in a BA11. The form caxtor is > very standardized though the interconnect for power varies with molex or > terminal barrier strips being used. Ah, good data point to have if I ever get into the situation for a similar operation. > Yes, some of the backplanes and the cpu board have jumpesr that need to > be correct and matching. Alas I don't have any DEC Processor and Peripherals Handbook covering QBUS in dead tree format, just UNIBUS stuff which is of about zilch use to me in this case, but I got myself the BA11-N (which includes details on the backplane) and KDF11-BA manuals from bitsavers. Yes, I also already perused them to a certain extent, and yes, I was aware of the jumper issue (which is why I even _mentioned_ it. Duh.) > I have full sets spanning the years and it fills about 5 ft (1.5M) of > linear shelf space. I consider > them as more important than the hardware. While much of it is on the > net I find it harder to > scan for a specific item like the default jumpers for DLV11J. The books > have a bit of wear > from actual use. Not having worked for DEC and being a bit younger than most of the hardware in question, I'm not that lucky. I could get myself some doubles that were culled from a university collection ('76 peripherals manual, 11/45 and 11/60 processor manuals...) which unfortunately do not cover the era and range of hardware I'm dealing with here. > [boot rom / mass storage issues] I'm not yet holding the CPU card in question in my hands so I don't know the exact variety. I have RL01 (three) and RL02 drives (one) which I would like to use with this system, as they seem appropriate for the era. > The only common card set that depends on CD is RL11 The two board > RL01/02 controller > and it's only 18bit capable, if you working with 22bit system (fully > populated with ram) > then you need the RLV21 which is a single quad board and works in all > backplanes... > > oh and also RL02 drives, a 40" rack minimum, plus a good back! ...not to mention at least one good _pack_, which is (for the RL01) what I'm missing. > In the end the whole Q22 this is only an issue when you exceed 256Kbytes > of memory > as the Q22 allowed the MMU to reach 4MB of ram. I will also be provided with a 512kW MOS memory board, so I will need 22-bit addressing to take full advantage of that, and therefore the (22-bit clean) RLV_12_ single-board controller. So no CD lanes needed here. > PPS oh, I have at least two that have all slots filled! Its way to easy > to plug in IO. > For example RLV21 quad width, RQDX3 dual, TKQ50 (dual) TK50, > RXV21 (dual) RX02 drive controller, DZV11 serial IO(quad), > LPV11 parallel printer (dual), DEQNA (dual), > full 4mb memory (3 quad boards). don't forget the CPU, > 11/23B+ also a quad board. > Thats 16 slots filled plus two grant cards total 18 making a full box. > The grant cards allow for optimal board placement and are required to > keep the DMA and interrupt vector chain complete. Was it indeed usual to build such large configurations based on an 11/23 back then? TQK50, DEQNA and RQDX3 at least sound sound a bit anachronistic to me, there surely must have been newer and more powerful processors out at the time those became available? I think I'll have a rather minimal system (KDF11-B, 512kW RAM, quad SLU, RLV12 + one or drives) for now, not making my first foray into pdp technology more complicated than necessary. Arno From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 21:11:56 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 22:11:56 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote: >> For example RLV21 quad width, RQDX3 dual, TKQ50 (dual) TK50, >> RXV21 (dual) RX02 drive controller, DZV11 serial IO(quad), >> LPV11 parallel printer (dual), DEQNA (dual), >> full 4mb memory (3 quad boards). don't forget the CPU, >> 11/23B+ also a quad board. > >> Thats 16 slots filled plus two grant cards total 18 making a full box. > > Was it indeed usual to build such large configurations based on an 11/23 back then? That was not a small configuration, but it wasn't uncommon. When I did PDP-11 consulting in the late 1980s, my "simple" machine in my home office was a BA-11N with a KDF11-A with 4 32kW memory boards (they were nearly free by then), an RXV21, an RLV11 ($100 vs over $1000 for an RLV12), an LPV11, a DLV11J for console and Kermit port, and BDV-11 for boot ROM and bus termination. That's 7 dual-height cards and three quad-height cards. What was selling new at time was a MicroPDP-11, so that's a BA-23 with a quad-height CPU, a quad height memory card, an RQDXn (I forget which model shipped with the MicroPDPs), a quad-height serial card, > TQK50, DEQNA and RQDX3 at least sound sound a bit anachronistic > to me, there surely must have been newer and more powerful > processors out at the time those became available? There were - you could get a MicroPDP-11 with a KDJ11, and lots of people did, but they cost more. I wouldn't have wanted to run an RSX-11/M+ system on a KDF11, but I did see plenty of them on KDJ11 processors (but even more on Unibus machines). > I think I'll have a rather minimal system (KDF11-B, 512kW RAM, > quad SLU, RLV12 + one or drives) for now, not making my first > foray into pdp technology more complicated than necessary. I would call that a mid-range Q-bus PDP-11 myself, not "minimal". Among other characteristics, I personally think of Q22 as "not minimal". You can do a lot with RT-11 in 18 bits of memory. A large Qbus system would be the full 4GB of RAM, Ethernet, a disk larger than an RQDXn can take (meaning over 150GB), usually SMD, ESDI or SCSI disk. -ethan From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 21:21:21 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 22:21:21 -0400 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus < sales at elecplus.com> wrote: > Some things are easy to Google, and you get reasonably appropriate results. > Other things give you whacky results! > > Google HP 700/96, and you get decent results. > > Google apple, and the first 20 items relate to Apple computers or Apple > Corp., not to eating apples. > > Google Commodore, and surprisingly, the first line is not Commodore > computer > related. (Interestingly, it seems a company has bought the rights to the > Commodore and Amiga names, and will be re-inventing the C64 with nVidia > graphics inside) > > Google wolf cub, and you get everything from animals to Scouting to music > to > golf clubs! > > > > Seems like they need to tweak their algorithms again? > Google keeps track of what you usually search for and tweaks the algorithm accordingly. So, if you search for computer equipment all the time, then do a search for commodore, you get commodore computers. If you search for naval history terms all the time, you'd probably get commodore Perry at the top. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Apr 6 21:59:29 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 22:59:29 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5160E111.40206@verizon.net> On 04/06/2013 10:11 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote: >>> For example RLV21 quad width, RQDX3 dual, TKQ50 (dual) TK50, >>> RXV21 (dual) RX02 drive controller, DZV11 serial IO(quad), >>> LPV11 parallel printer (dual), DEQNA (dual), >>> full 4mb memory (3 quad boards). don't forget the CPU, >>> 11/23B+ also a quad board. >>> Thats 16 slots filled plus two grant cards total 18 making a full box. >> Was it indeed usual to build such large configurations based on an 11/23 back then? > That was not a small configuration, but it wasn't uncommon. Not at all uncommon. Usually the disk round out might have left out the RQDX or the RX02 but many in the day wanted to move from 8" to 5.25 for space and needed one system to do both. The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day that was as costly as the base machine if not more. > > When I did PDP-11 consulting in the late 1980s, my "simple" machine in > my home office was a BA-11N with a KDF11-A with 4 32kW memory > boards (they were nearly free by then), an RXV21, an RLV11 ($100 vs > over $1000 for an RLV12), an LPV11, a DLV11J for console and Kermit > port, and BDV-11 for boot ROM and bus termination. That's 7 > dual-height cards and three quad-height cards. The MicroPDP11 over time came with any of the three RQDX, the rqdx1 was short lived and the RQDX2 was a revised and cleaned up RQDX1 and still quad width. The RQDX3 was later and both cheaper to make and generally better. They all could with the correct firmware upgrades run the same floppies and hard disks. My first machine was a 4slot backplane, LSI11, 8kw of H11 ram and a TU58 I managed to fix. The main box was an old aluminum shell from a S100 machine I had with a H780 power supply. > What was selling new at time was a MicroPDP-11, so that's a BA-23 with a > quad-height CPU, a quad height memory card, an RQDXn (I forget which > model shipped with the MicroPDPs), a quad-height serial card, Most of them had RQDX2, a RX50 and RD51 (St412), RD52(quantum D540, rd31(20mb ST225) or rd32(40mb St250). Memory ran from 128K all the way up to 4mb (4 quad width board early and later 2 quad width). CPU was either 11/23+ or later 11/73 options. IO was usualy cpu (two serial) plus DHV or DZV for multiple lines and possibly a LPV11. That was the usual self standing pedestal. The racked version had RL02 or and could have other drives and tapes such as 9track or TK50. That was mid 80s package. Standard disk was RX50 floppy and maybe RD51, 52. I also have one I built of random parts to "DEC Supported configuration" with floppy, hard disk and 1mb ram. Nice small machine and not too noisy. >> TQK50, DEQNA and RQDX3 at least sound sound a bit anachronistic >> to me, there surely must have been newer and more powerful >> processors out at the time those became available? TK50 was tape DLT tape. DEQNA was ethernet, and RQDX3 was MSCP floppy and hard disk controller. CPU typically was 11/23+ or 11/73 later on for a price. > There were - you could get a MicroPDP-11 with a KDJ11, and lots > of people did, but they cost more. I wouldn't have wanted to run > an RSX-11/M+ system on a KDF11, but I did see plenty of them on > KDJ11 processors (but even more on Unibus machines). The biggest advantage of the KDJ11 was I&D space for 2.11BSD or RSTS or RSX11. Better memory utilization. The disk mix in my case was so I could handle any common DEC media. RL, RX02, RX50, RX33, any MFM drive (5 through 150mb) and TK50 was a common DLT item. >> I think I'll have a rather minimal system (KDF11-B, 512kW RAM, >> quad SLU, RLV12 + one or drives) for now, not making my first >> foray into pdp technology more complicated than necessary. You will want RX50 or RX02 as those were and are common media. Its easier to find Dias on RX50 or RX02 though I've seen them on TK50 but hated loading them form that (slow!). Either way a RX02 or RX50 was the common simple and cheap storage that offered portability. RL packs were over 160$ new and didn't like to be bounced. FYI drives like RL02 were nearly as expensive as the base machine ($8-12K). > I would call that a mid-range Q-bus PDP-11 myself, not "minimal". > > Among other characteristics, I personally think of Q22 as "not minimal". > You can do a lot with RT-11 in 18 bits of memory. Yes, you can even in 16bits. I also have a tiny system using M8186 in a 12 slot dual wide cage running 512KB ram (4 boards), MRV11 (boot), DLV11J for serial IO, and TU58 for storage. It boots the TU and copies it to VM: and reboots from there making for a small but very fast RT-11 system. The OS only use the 28KW and the rest is a virtual disk (ram disk) big enough to copy the whole base os and a few useful apps. > A large Qbus system would be the full 4GB of RAM, Ethernet, a > disk larger than an RQDXn can take (meaning over 150GB), > usually SMD, ESDI or SCSI disk. > I think you meant 150MB for RQDXm for its upper limit. For larger there were large disks but that was uncommon for Qbus 11s. RT11 could barely fill (the whole mess) a 20mb drie with much room left over. For RSTS or RSX a 31mb (RD52) was enough and two did the trick. larger systems often had mag tape either DLT (tk50) or 9track for backup and sneakernet (off site or remote systems before WAN). Typical PDP11 OSs were fairly compact and 30MB could allow for many users. Those that ran Unix Most versions fit on a RL02 (10mb) with some space and 20-40mb was adequate room for a lot of users and applications. The system I still use is the tall (50") rack BA-11 CPU I used in my office when I was in the Mill (ML03-6/B5) as a utility system for printing and off line (non VAX work). Still fun to use and I even have a few uVAX3100s running VMS for it to talk to. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 22:34:51 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 23:34:51 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5160E111.40206@verizon.net> References: <5160E111.40206@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 10:59 PM, allison wrote: > Either way a RX02 or RX50 was the common simple and cheap storage > that offered portability. RL packs were over 160$ new and didn't like to > be bounced. FYI drives like RL02 were nearly as expensive as the base > machine ($8-12K). When I was using the BA11N system I described, I owned an RL01 because I couldn't afford an RL02. FWIW, I was messing with this system just last month. It's still intact. > Yes, you can even in 16bits. I also have a tiny system using M8186 in a > 12 slot dual wide cage running 512KB ram (4 boards), MRV11 (boot), > DLV11J for serial IO, and TU58 for storage. It boots the TU and copies > it to VM: and reboots from there making for a small but very fast > RT-11 system. The OS only use the 28KW and the rest is a virtual > disk (ram disk) big enough to copy the whole base os and a few > useful apps. That sounds like a fine RT-11 system. >> A large Qbus system would be the full 4GB of RAM, Ethernet, a >> disk larger than an RQDXn can take (meaning over 150GB), >> usually SMD, ESDI or SCSI disk. >> > > I think you meant 150MB for RQDXm for its upper limit. Yes. 150MB, not GB. Modern habits. > For larger > there were large disks but that was uncommon for Qbus 11s. Agreed. As one example, I'm thinking of the system that was the target for my work at the time (1986-1987)... KDJ11 w/4MB of memory, RLV12 + RL02, RQDX3, some RDn boot drive, and an ESDI controller with a Fujitsu Eagle (~400MB) for scan data (the purpose of the machine). It was *not* a cheap system - several tens of thousands of dollars when bought new. I was happy that I was able to write code for it on my $400 (used price) system ($300 for BA11 + most of the cards I listed + $100 for the RLV11, and repurposing most of the peripherals from my PDP-8/a). I made my living from that little PDP-11 for over a year. Good investment! The transfer medium was an RL02 pack via an RL02 drive that my boss loaned me. My boot drive and editing area was all on my RL01. The RL02 contained a customer- provided data file I used to write code against, and served as the physical medium we'd carry onto the customer site to deliver new releases. I'm pretty sure that at the time, that RL02 drive cost several times more than my entire computer. > The system I still use is the tall (50") rack BA-11 CPU I used in my office > when I was in the Mill (ML03-6/B5) as a utility system for printing and > off line (non VAX work). Still fun to use and I even have a few > uVAX3100s running VMS for it to talk to. Cool. -ethan From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 6 23:36:09 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 23:36:09 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5160F7B9.10707@pico-systems.com> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 21:58:25 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks I don't remember the RM07. I remember the RM05 (CDC 9766) and the RP07, which I _thought_ was a 100% DEC design (that resembled a white washing machine with no access panels), but I could be wrong about that. My memory may be slipping. We had a 500 MB drive that fits the description, MASSBus only, and just a couple buttons on the front. You had to open the back to flip the circuit breaker off to reset the drive - which I had to do a LOT until they fixed some of the firmware bugs. I THOUGHT the model was RM07, but maybe it was an RP07. I thought RP was for removable disk packs, and the RM was for fixed HDAs. The drive we had was definitely made by Burroughs, it had Burroughs labels on the boards ons other parts inside. I gather it never was very popular due to price, and so I can't find much online. But, I did find one pic with a readable RP07 label and it looks like I remember. We never had to leave covers open on ours, and had no overheating problems, although the HDA did run hot enough to almost burn your hand! We did have under floor cold air supply in our machine room. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 6 23:40:11 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 23:40:11 -0500 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5160F8AB.2090707@pico-systems.com> Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 14:00:06 +0100 (BST) From: P Gebhardt To: cctech Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment Message-ID: <1365253206.48217.YahooMailNeo at web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi everybody, I had a look through my tapes and found one from Control Data being labeled "Total Service Tape". Does anybody know, if this tape also serves as an alignment tape? I couldn't find any information about that on the Net so far. I used to make my own skew tapes by just writing a program to write out huge blocks (8K or more) of all 1's. That worked fine for using a scope to check the skew. Not sure if a drive diagnostic would accept such a pattern as a skew tape, though. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 6 23:56:37 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 23:56:37 -0500 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5160FC85.9050800@pico-systems.com> Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 00:10:24 +0100 From: Colin Eby To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment Message-ID: <975726A4-6B0E-4EE6-BB5E-B518CAA638B6 at isallthat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 If you don't have a alignment tape, you might try simply creating a /dev/zero tape from a known good drive. No, this won't work. It will only have transitions in the parity channel, all other channels (0-7) will have no transitions at all except at the end of the block (CRC and LRCC). Writing all 1's will have transitions on all data channels AND the parity channel (to get odd parity on each byte). Drives made for alignment with a scope have a resistor summing network that sums the bit detector on each channel. With bad alignment you see a wave with lots of stairsteps up and down the side. With correct alignment, it becomes almost a perfect square wave, with at most one narrow step on the sides. Jon Jon From wilson at dbit.com Sun Apr 7 00:29:25 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 01:29:25 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <5160F7B9.10707@pico-systems.com> References: <5160F7B9.10707@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20130407052925.GA5515@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Apr 06, 2013 at 11:36:09PM -0500, Jon Elson wrote: > We had a 500 MB drive that fits the description, MASSBus >only, and just a couple buttons on the front. I'll bet you mean the RP07. I had a hazy recollection that it was built by Sperry but maybe that story got garbled -- Burroughs and Sperry must have been engaged by then so what's the difference. 516 MB is the claimed capacity IIRC. Wasn't there a keypad under the lid? Fancy... >I thought RP was for removable >disk packs, and the RM was for fixed HDAs. That would make sense. So, no. RM was just the later generation, using almost (but naturally not quite) generic SMD drives and an "RM adapter" which was almost (but naturally not quite) the same between all models, to make the jump from very-nearly-SMD to Massbus. The RM80 was indeed fixed (same HDA as the RA80, and the R80 in a VAX-11/730), but the rest (RM02/03/05) were slightly hacked CDC 9762/9766 pack drives. IIRC the RP07 tended to live on the RMxx Massbus instead of the RPxx one, so it got a DR: device name instead of a DB: like the earlier RP0x drives (on PDP-11s anyway). Insanity... John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 7 00:28:46 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 22:28:46 -0700 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: <5160F8AB.2090707@pico-systems.com> References: <5160F8AB.2090707@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5161040E.1020905@sydex.com> On 04/06/2013 09:40 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > I had a look through my tapes and found one from Control Data being > labeled "Total Service Tape". > Does anybody know, if this tape also serves as an alignment tape? I > couldn't find any information about that on the Net so far. I don't think so. I'm with others in that this is just a CDC branding for a "premium" brand of tape. I think CDC had a similar hyperbole for their floppies. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 00:53:51 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 01:53:51 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516098C5.10704@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> <51606C5D.9020204@neurotica.com> <51607D91.3020205@xs4all.nl> <51608522.8090200@neurotica.com> <516098C5.10704@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516109EF.1000707@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 05:51 PM, MG wrote: > On 6-apr-2013 22:27, Dave McGuire wrote: >> *sigh* Troll. > > You really shouldn't get so 'emotional' over these things. I just don't like trolls, or people who spout off at the mouth without knowing a damn thing about what they're talking about. >> They are. I can see you don't much keep up with the news. > > I realize this is a retro/classic computing mailing list, but... ...more trolling... >> Why would they? They're doing fine. The banks haven't stopped >> buying them, and that's who matters in that world. > > But the NonStop and other people tell me exactly the same. Who am > I supposed to believe? I don't give a shit whom you do or do not believe. Neither does the mainframe market. > Also, how would that plead well for the platform considering the > recent wave of issues with the internet banking? (Especially here > in Europe, which has been in the news the last few days.) No clue what you're talking about here. My bank works fine. >> Oh, of course. I must've missed the entire financial world's >> transition to PCs. It must've been sometime last week. > > Not (just) the financial world. But yes, you probably did... Clueless. >> Since IBM continues to introduce new mainframes at about the same >> pace that they always have > > Which is probably too slow for nowadays. Clueless. >> and continues to pour GIGANTIC amounts of money into their development, > > Not enough likely. BEYOND clueless. >>> Touchy subject? >> >> Not really...I just don't like trolls. Or pricks with chips on their >> shoulders who make loud assertions about things that they clearly know JACK >> POINT SHIT about. > > /Fortunately/, for a minute I thought it was a touchy subject! LOL. ...troll... -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 00:55:50 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 01:55:50 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 06:39 PM, MG wrote: >> What you say is true - most people, even professionals, do not know >> what a mainframe was or is. The problem is that you are not observing >> things as they are. Much of this is due to the outlook that Unix (and >> Windows) people have - you assume the mainframe is dead, so you look >> no further, and continue assuming the mainframe is dead. The mainframe >> will not find you, and will not inform you. > > Not how capitalism typically works, though. > > >> In the mainframe market, being invisible has advantages. > > In the /market/ market, it has serious disadvantages. *laugh* I'll tell IBM to "get right on that". I'm sure they'll value your sage business advice. Troll. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 01:01:36 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 02:01:36 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5160A258.1090103@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <51608F12.7060903@neurotica.com> <5160A258.1090103@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51610BC0.5040708@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 06:31 PM, MG wrote: > On 6-apr-2013 23:09, Dave McGuire wrote: >> You'd be wrong about that. I'm a UNIX guy. I'm impressed with >> IBM'sbig stuff, but that's not the world I work in. > > Why do you care then? You get overly emotional for something you're > not even involved with. I've told you this THREE TIMES. "I don't like trolls", and "I react poorly to clueless people spouting off about things that they know nothing about". I honestly have no idea of why I'm driven to correct that sort of crap, as people will remain blissfully clueless and blissfully (and safely) tucked behind their keyboards, with nothing else to do but start flame wars on mailing lists. I WILL try to stop "feeding the troll". > Did you even read that Register article, or are you so convinced > of IBM's propaganda? I don't look at marketing material. ANY marketing material. You, however, clearly do. > Hilariously, when I search on the 'net for "mainframe", in the top > results there are denials and negations like "mainframes aren't > dead" and "why the mainframe isn't dead", like also on YouTube and > of IBM itself. Yes, exactly. Because there are so many clueless people, such as yourself, and people with vested interests elsewhere, who have been saying "mainframes are dead" for decades. I started hearing it in the 1980s! >> Why would they? Do you think they have some need for people >> likeyourself, who seems to think they're "dead" anyway? > > It's just /me/? They should be grateful I've even heard of it > and show /some/ interest. (Which gradually degrades with every > encounter with IBM zealots, like yourself.) Oh ok, I'm an "IBM zealot" now, because I haven't bought into the same trendy crap that you have. I'm not a "mainframer"...never have been. I'm *interested* in them, as of fairly recently, when I learned that they hadn't actually died, and I wanted to know why. After looking at things with an open mind and learning a bit, something you might consider trying by the way, I became interested and am learning more. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 01:34:40 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 02:34:40 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 08:07 PM, geneb wrote: >>> As far as I'm aware, it's not exactly 'allowed' to run (e.g.) "z" >>> 'at home', not even for non-commercial/private reasons and end- >>> uses/purposes. >> >> Wrong again. >> >> One day I will learn to avoid feeding the trolls. One day. >> > But today is not that day! Muahahahahahahahahha! > > *ahem* And you're absolutely RIGHT. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Sat Apr 6 09:37:33 2013 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 16:37:33 +0200 Subject: Xerox 820-II FDC (was Re: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002501ce32d4$478b4c50$d6a1e4f0$@lazzerini@email.it> Trying to rebuild the FDC card by my xerox 820-II motherboard, I have discovered the presence of an IC named 733w01522 (U1) on the photo of the original PCB which code I cannot read on the schematic not very readable reported at the end of xerox820-II service manual. Sorry, I mistakenly indicated a 14-pin TTL chips even though it was 16 pin. Thanks for contribution of Chuck Guzis from the VCF he told me that the 733w01522 is a PROM and it is equivalent at 74S288 but also to others IC as reported here http://www.hobbyroms.com/proms.html. U1 (74S288) and U2 (74S174) together constitute a "finite state machine" (so they told to me cause I'm not so expert) whose purpose is to provide a read clock and a read data to the chip WD1797 from raw data received from the drive. Then I need to discover the code that the chip could have (without having the original chip programmed with me!). Upon the recommendation of Chuck Guzis I found the code listing on page 12 of the manual of the FDC1797's application notes. At this point, trusting to this code I'd need to buy a programmed 74S288 (or equivalent). After all this I was finally trying to figure out if it sould be better to use of a schematic published on an old issue of Microcornucopia: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4f8kblogrlzdr9m/FDC_from_Micro_Cornucopia_#22_Feb8 5.pdf. Who wrote that article decided to build itself a FDC controller card for his xerox 820-II extracting a block of its schematic from a Kaypro-II's schematic really making very few changes and using a FDC WD1793 + WD9216 for external separator data. Due to its small number of components, and having already a WD1797 I'd just need of a WD9216 (i hope to find it on the Internet yet) and wiring it would be maybe more simple. Last suggestion (always from the so expert Chuck that I thanks so much) would be to use a WD2797 instead of WD1797, but I'm not a designer and while i can understand something of all those things it's very hard for me to change schematics or adjust components. I hope to be able to buy a ready Xerox 820-II FDC board even I know that it's not very easy to find. Thanks anyway for all the support that was given to me. Regards Enrico - Pisa (ITALY) From CyndeM at vulcan.com Sat Apr 6 12:36:08 2013 From: CyndeM at vulcan.com (Cynde Moya) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 17:36:08 +0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_Identifications_sought_:=AC)?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F643F60EE@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> I can tell you exactly what they are. Back row, L-R : Apple II (Serial no. A252-223242) with two Apple disk II (Serial nos. 663608 and 1028507) and TMC S9 Picture Monitor (Serial no. 1098) ; Intertec Superbrain (Serial no. 355129) [Replacing the original photograph's Datapoint 8200]. Front row, L-R : Sanyo MBC-550 (Serial no. 18221141) with Panasonic RGB monitor (Serial no. EC3430061) and keyboard (Serial no. 18221149) [Replacing the original photograph's NEC PC-8001] ; Zenith Data Systems Z-19 (Serial no. J128P106) ; Commodore Pet (Serial no. 0010850) ; and TRS-80 I (Serial no. 355129) with monitor and expansion unit. Replacement computers are of similar form factor and also ran early Microsoft software. Cynde Moya Librarian/Archivist Living Computer Museum -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sam O'nella Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 1:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Identifications sought :?) I can only identify the easier ones. Likely a Zenith H-89 in the middle, and I thought a TRS-80 Model I on the front right although the more I look at that picture the less detail I can see. That front left one looks quite familiar though. Wish there was a bigger picture out there. Love the remake though. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/04/gates_allen_reshoot_photo/ > > ? > One of the most iconic photos from the history of Microsoft, featuring > a lanky young Bill Gates perched next to his coding mentor (the way he > tells it) Paul Allen, has been recreated at Seattle's Living Computing > Museum. > [...] > Among the systems still surrounding them are an Apple II with twin > drives and an ancient monitor in the top left of the picture, with a > Commodore Pet below Bill Gates. Readers who can identify the other > systems, please let us know in Comments. > ? > > -- > Liam Proven . Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk . GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com . Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 . Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From CyndeM at vulcan.com Sat Apr 6 12:39:36 2013 From: CyndeM at vulcan.com (Cynde Moya) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 17:39:36 +0000 Subject: Need PDP-9 Paper Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F643F6104@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> I will check our uncataloged collection of paper tapes next week and see if there is anything of use. Great work on that PDP-9 restoration! Cynde Moya Librarian/Archivist Living Computer Museum -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Thompson Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 5:02 PM To: cctech Subject: Need PDP-9 Paper Tapes The RICM has the processor of their PDP-9 working fairly well. We have most of the diags for the processor on paper tape. We will make working copies of the tapes and also make images to send to Bitsavers. We have the diag documentation for the TC59/TU20, but we do not have the paper tapes. It would be possible to enter the source from the listing and assemble it using Simh, but that would be a bit of work. I know that it is probably wishful thinking, but does anyone have paper tapes of the TC59/TU20 diags? Paper tapes of the TC02/TU55 diags would be nice to have too. We would eventually like to get an OS running on the system. It looks like the ADSS Input/Output Monitor will run on our configuration, and maybe even the Keyboard Monitor. Does anyone have paper tapes for ADSS or any other monitor that would run on this system? Details of the paper tapes and manuals that we have are at the bottom of this page: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9 -- Michael Thompson From CyndeM at vulcan.com Sat Apr 6 12:41:05 2013 From: CyndeM at vulcan.com (Cynde Moya) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 17:41:05 +0000 Subject: Need PDP-9 Paper Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F643F611E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> I will check our uncataloged collection of paper tapes next week and see if there is anything of use. Great work on that PDP-9 restoration! Cynde Moya Librarian/Archivist Living Computer Museum -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Thompson Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 5:02 PM To: cctech Subject: Need PDP-9 Paper Tapes The RICM has the processor of their PDP-9 working fairly well. We have most of the diags for the processor on paper tape. We will make working copies of the tapes and also make images to send to Bitsavers. We have the diag documentation for the TC59/TU20, but we do not have the paper tapes. It would be possible to enter the source from the listing and assemble it using Simh, but that would be a bit of work. I know that it is probably wishful thinking, but does anyone have paper tapes of the TC59/TU20 diags? Paper tapes of the TC02/TU55 diags would be nice to have too. We would eventually like to get an OS running on the system. It looks like the ADSS Input/Output Monitor will run on our configuration, and maybe even the Keyboard Monitor. Does anyone have paper tapes for ADSS or any other monitor that would run on this system? Details of the paper tapes and manuals that we have are at the bottom of this page: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9 -- Michael Thompson From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 05:11:26 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 12:11:26 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 8:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/06/2013 08:07 PM, geneb wrote: >>>> As far as I'm aware, it's not exactly 'allowed' to run (e.g.) "z" >>>> 'at home', not even for non-commercial/private reasons and end- >>>> uses/purposes. >>> >>> Wrong again. >>> >>> One day I will learn to avoid feeding the trolls. One day. >>> >> But today is not that day! Muahahahahahahahahha! >> >> *ahem* > > And you're absolutely RIGHT. ;) Glad your reinforcements arrived, maybe he can provide you tactical ad hominem simulated air support from that F-15C cockpit? - MG From colineby at isallthat.com Sun Apr 7 05:13:42 2013 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:13:42 +0100 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: <5160FC85.9050800@pico-systems.com> References: <5160FC85.9050800@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Jon, First, lemme reassert my non-expert status on this. However, my understanding of PE -- phase encoding as a raw signal -- is that a 0 is a low to high transition(Thomas or reversed high to low for IEEE) against a fixed clock time. Successive 0s have to be encoded taking the sign low to high, before going high to low again. The system is to ignore those signals and simply count the transition at the mid-point of the period. Setting the blocking aside, doesn't that mean you end up with two transitions in a period for every zero. And if you write zero to every channel you get a nice sine wave at the pre-amp, with the parity bit being the inverse signal (all ones). NZRI would of course be rather different. But for PE, this is my understand of the signal inside a block. I believe that's the signal form you were thinking of. -Colin On 7 Apr 2013, at 05:56, Jon Elson wrote: > Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 00:10:24 +0100 > From: Colin Eby > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment > Message-ID: <975726A4-6B0E-4EE6-BB5E-B518CAA638B6 at isallthat.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > > If you don't have a alignment tape, you might try simply creating a > /dev/zero tape from a known good drive. > > No, this won't work. It will only have transitions in the parity channel, all other > channels (0-7) will have no transitions at all except at the end of the block (CRC > and LRCC). Writing all 1's will have transitions on all data channels AND > the parity channel (to get odd parity on each byte). > > Drives made for alignment with a scope have a resistor summing network that > sums the bit detector on each channel. With bad alignment you see a wave > with lots of stairsteps up and down the side. With correct alignment, it > becomes almost a perfect square wave, with at most one narrow step on > the sides. > > Jon > Jon > From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 05:16:19 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 12:16:19 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 7:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > *laugh* > > I'll tell IBM to "get right on that". I'm sure they'll value your sage > business advice. > > Troll. What is a "troll" in your book, is that someone who prefers to live in the now and present (currently the year 2013, for your information), instead of passionately trying to believe it's still the 1950~'70s time frame? By the way, you should ditch the Cold War mentality at least. Not everybody who doesn't blindly kiss the /behind/ of IBM (like you) is a 'traitor'. - MG From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sun Apr 7 07:49:51 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 14:49:51 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Was it indeed usual to build such large configurations based on an 11/23 back then? > > That was not a small configuration, but it wasn't uncommon. > > [data points for system configurations from Ethan and Allison] allison wrote: > Not at all uncommon. Usually the disk round out might have left out the > RQDX or the RX02 > but many in the day wanted to move from 8" to 5.25 for space and needed > one system to do both. OK, some more enlightenment absorbed. > You will want RX50 or RX02 as those were and are common media. > Either way a RX02 or RX50 was the common simple and cheap storage > that offered portability. Mass storage for my system is another area I need to spend more thought on, for now I was planning to stay with the RL drives I got with the case. > RL packs were over 160$ new and didn't like to > be bounced. FYI drives like RL02 were nearly as expensive as the base > machine ($8-12K). The drives are not the problem, I have those. I will need to check them out and get myself some more packs though. On second thought, some kind of floppy might be nice, too, but that is not a must now. If pressed for more mass storage, I could always put my QBus SMD controller (and a CMD Phoenix fixed/removable drive combination I was recently offered )to use with this machine, although I had got those rather imagined using them with my VSII/GPX. > Its easier to find Dias on RX50 or RX02 though I've seen them on TK50 > but hated loading them form that (slow!). I do have a TQK(mumble) board already (which was originally also intended for the VSII), but no drive yet. > > TQK50, DEQNA and RQDX3 at least sound sound a bit anachronistic > > to me, there surely must have been newer and more powerful > > processors out at the time those became available? > There were - you could get a MicroPDP-11 with a KDJ11, and lots > of people did, but they cost more. I wouldn't have wanted to run > an RSX-11/M+ system on a KDF11, but I did see plenty of them on > KDJ11 processors (but even more on Unibus machines). > > TK50 was tape DLT tape. DEQNA was ethernet, and RQDX3 was > MSCP floppy and hard disk controller. > > CPU typically was 11/23+ or 11/73 later on for a price. So the distinction between the rackmount and MicroPDP/VAX eras wasn't as sharp as I imagined it. I have such boards (ok, a DELQA in this case) in said VSII. > > I think I'll have a rather minimal system (KDF11-B, 512kW RAM, > > quad SLU, RLV12 + one or drives) for now, not making my first > > foray into pdp technology more complicated than necessary. > > I would call that a mid-range Q-bus PDP-11 myself, not "minimal". > Among other characteristics, I personally think of Q22 as "not minimal". > You can do a lot with RT-11 in 18 bits of memory. My fault, I should have been more specific and included: "in terms of features/peripherals/board count". Also, I was thinking relative to all 11s, not just QBUS. > The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day that was > as costly as the base machine if not more. I understand that memory was at a premium back then. Out of interest, how common was core memory (H223 and similar) in QBUS systems? Is BBU supported for the MOS memory options? > > I would call that a mid-range Q-bus PDP-11 myself, not "minimal". > > (...) > > Among other characteristics, I personally think of Q22 as "not minimal". > > You can do a lot with RT-11 in 18 bits of memory. > > Yes, you can even in 16bits. I also have a tiny system using M8186 in a > 12 slot dual wide cage running 512KB ram (4 boards), MRV11 (boot), > DLV11J for serial IO, and TU58 for storage. It boots the TU and copies > it to VM: and reboots from there making for a small but very fast > RT-11 system. The OS only use the 28KW and the rest is a virtual > disk (ram disk) big enough to copy the whole base os and a few > useful apps. What OS to use is yet another undecided question, I haven't even read up on the options. I could also just try out some bare metal programming at the ODT for a start. > I think you meant 150MB for RQDXm for its upper limit. For larger > there were large disks but that was uncommon for Qbus 11s. > RT11 could barely fill (the whole mess) a 20mb drie with much room > left over. For RSTS or RSX a 31mb (RD52) was enough and two > did the trick. So with just 1-2 RL0x drives, I'm pretty much stuck with RT-11? I've read that it has a lot in common with later DOS, so that might not even be a bad thing after all :) > larger systems often had mag tape either DLT (tk50) > or 9track for backup and sneakernet (off site or remote systems > before WAN). No such stuff in sight alas, but ISTR there is some sort of emulator software that makes a PC act as a serially-attached tape device? > When I was using the BA11N system I described, I owned an RL01 > because I couldn't afford an RL02. > > FWIW, I was messing with this system just last month. It's still intact. Nice to hear that. How problematic are the BA11-N power supplies, BTW? > > The system I still use is the tall (50") rack BA-11 CPU I used in my office > > when I was in the Mill (ML03-6/B5) as a utility system for printing and > > off line (non VAX work). Still fun to use and I even have a few > > uVAX3100s running VMS for it to talk to. > > Cool. Seconded :) Arno From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 08:25:00 2013 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 09:25:00 -0400 Subject: Looking for Apple Lisa 2/5 parts Message-ID: I'm trying to restore an Apple Lisa 2/5 that has been hit with battery corrosion. I'm looking for the following parts, if anyone has any they'd like to sell: - Lisa 2/5 I/O board - Lisa motherboard - Lisa CPU board While I'm at it: - Lisa keyboard - Lisa 1 mouse (the kind with the long button and not the Mac 128 mice). I am primarily looking for working/tested items but I may be interested in something that was not as damaged as mine that is restorable. Please contact me off-list with these or any other parts you may have. I am in Canada and would need to have them shipped there. I'll cross-post this to the LisaList too. Thank you. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 09:02:02 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:02:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for Apple Lisa 2/5 parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Santo Nucifora wrote: > I'm trying to restore an Apple Lisa 2/5 that has been hit with battery > corrosion. I'm looking for the following parts, if anyone has any they'd > like to sell: > > - Lisa 2/5 I/O board > - Lisa motherboard > - Lisa CPU board Santo, Have you tried disassembling the unit and soaking the three boards in a 50% water/white-vinegar solution for 24 hours? You may be surprised at how well things clean up. I was given a couple of 2/5 machines in horrendous shape and after a day in mild acidity, things looked terrific. Apple used very high-quality PCB material and despite appearances nothing was actually dissolved. Even the buss connectors (which were covered in green crud) gleamed! I did get both systems operational after some minor fiddling. Steve -- From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 10:32:52 2013 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:32:52 -0400 Subject: Looking for Apple Lisa 2/5 parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the reply, Steve. I've tried many things so far and the use of vinegar was one of them :) This is a long story that I didn't want to bore anyone with but here goes. My first experience with a Lisa 2/5 after acquiring one was a broken CRT that occurred during shipping. It still had the batteries in it so I cut those out and soaked the I/O and motherboard in vinegar/water to remove as much corrosion as possible. To fix the broken CRT, I sourced a DEC 12" mono CRT and replaced the yoke with the Lisa yoke. Unfortunately, the Lisa was dead when trying to start it up the first time (I couldn't start troubleshooting without a good CRT). All the while, I was a little skeptical that the DEC CRT would work. As a back up, I was lucky enough to find an empty Lisa 2/5 chassis (with wiring, motherboard and CRT) so I picked that up. This was an A6SB100 model with a Lisa 2 front bezel. The motherboard was also corroded but was different from my original motherboard. On this one, the mouse, needs a notched mouse connector that I assume was used on the original Lisa 1. I was able to clean "motherboard 2" with water/vinegar but the caps around the parallel port had disintegrated. I've since ordered those. While my original motherboard looked great, I did manage to break one of the pins in the 120 pin I/O board connector while giving it a light brushing. I am trying to find a replacement 120 pin as we speak for that. Even with bad caps, I tried both motherboards but no luck. I had checked most of the traces on the I/O board and found that I had to push in pins on the COP421 to make contact. I've replaced the socket since and could power up the Lisa with one of the motherboards!. After replacing the COP421 socket, my I/O board seems to be semi-working. My original Lisa 2/5 with the DEC CRT works fine (note for those who have bad burn-in) but I get an I/O board "Error 52" and that's where I am today. I think I may need a COP421 but that is kinda difficult to find and locating this is no guarantee that the I/O board is okay. So, I have two chassis, one set of cards, The original motherboard (with good caps and broken mouse pin on I/O port) is bad even though it's gleaming (and I tried soaking a second time just in case). The motherboard with the bad caps seems to be okay. I do have one keyboard but I don't know if it works. I have one Mac 128K mouse that I had to notch the 9 pin connector on to allow it to fit the Lisa 1 motherboard. Seeing as how I have some parts for a second Lisa 2/5 including a working power supply, I figured I'd see if anyone has any spare parts lying around because I think I've hit a wall. Other than checking continuity again on the I/O board, I'm not sure where to go from here. Sorry for the long post but in summary, I've been busy on it for a few months. Thanks for listening. Unfortunately, after looking for "Error 52" on the Lisa list and other places, it's a specific error for the COP421 but others have fixed it, in one case, by reseating the CPU board. It's getting a little frustrating but I'm determined! Ultimately, I'd like to get a Lisa 2/5 with LOS going, as opposed to Mac XL. I can revert my first Lisa 2/5 back with a few replaced ROM chips but if someone has some extra parts lying around, I may be able to get the second chassis going and possibly have both, hence the extended request for parts. It seems that I need a working Lisa to fix a Lisa :) Thanks again. On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Santo Nucifora wrote: > > I'm trying to restore an Apple Lisa 2/5 that has been hit with battery >> corrosion. I'm looking for the following parts, if anyone has any they'd >> like to sell: >> >> - Lisa 2/5 I/O board >> - Lisa motherboard >> - Lisa CPU board >> > > Santo, > > Have you tried disassembling the unit and soaking the three boards in a > 50% water/white-vinegar solution for 24 hours? You may be surprised at how > well things clean up. I was given a couple of 2/5 machines in horrendous > shape and after a day in mild acidity, things looked terrific. Apple used > very high-quality PCB material and despite appearances nothing was actually > dissolved. Even the buss connectors (which were covered in green crud) > gleamed! > > I did get both systems operational after some minor fiddling. > > Steve > > > > -- > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 7 10:33:01 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 08:33:01 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516191AD.7060306@bitsavers.org> On 4/7/13 3:11 AM, MG wrote: > Glad your reinforcements arrived, maybe he can provide you > tactical ad hominem simulated air support from that F-15C > cockpit? > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 10:48:22 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:48:22 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_?= =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Clueless! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Apr 7, 2013, at 6:16 AM, MG wrote: > On 7-apr-2013 7:55, Dave McGuire wrote: >> *laugh* >> >> I'll tell IBM to "get right on that". I'm sure they'll value your sage >> business advice. >> >> Troll. > > What is a "troll" in your book, is that someone who prefers to live in > the now and present (currently the year 2013, for your information), > instead of passionately trying to believe it's still the 1950~'70s > time frame? > > By the way, you should ditch the Cold War mentality at least. Not > everybody who doesn't blindly kiss the /behind/ of IBM (like you) > is a 'traitor'. > > - MG From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Apr 7 10:49:17 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:49:17 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2013, at 3:16 AM, MG wrote: > On 7-apr-2013 7:55, Dave McGuire wrote: >> *laugh* >> >> I'll tell IBM to "get right on that". I'm sure they'll value your sage >> business advice. >> > > By the way, you should ditch the Cold War mentality at least. Not > everybody who doesn't blindly kiss the /behind/ of IBM (like you) > is a 'traitor'. *sigh* I wasn't going to jump into this but... For those that say the mainframe (specifically IBM 360/370/390/z-series architecture) is dead, I would say not. Not only are they suited to do traditional "mainframe" tasks but they're *really* good at virtual hosting. You know the virtualization stuff that's been touted by the likes of VMWare, Microsoft, etc on Intel platforms for the last few years. Well, IBM's been doing that since 370 days (early 1970's). They do virtualization better than anyone...almost no IBM shops run the OS on the "metal". They're run inside a VM. It's just that good. Linux has been ported to the z-series. As an experiment, IBM wanted to see how many Linux VM clients could be run (basically to see what it would be like for a hosting company). They stopped at 42,000 Linux clients running on a *single* z-series. They stopped not because the performance was unacceptable or because they ran into any limits...they got tired of adding VMs! It's an architecture that will soon be 50 years old. The original 360 architecture (which was not only the ISA but also how I/O was interfaced) has been surprisingly resilient. I cast suspicion on anyone who says something is "dead". Not only have I been hearing that the mainframe is dead since the late 70's, I've also been hearing that the disk drive is dead for about the same period of time. How's that going? TTFN - Guy From jon at jonworld.com Sun Apr 7 10:52:49 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:52:49 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2013, at 11:48 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Clueless! I think we need a sarcasm/facetious font for our e-mails. The problem is we in retro-land only do ASCII e-mails, and the wind up in flamewars :( From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Apr 7 11:06:27 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 09:06:27 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1A9DF49B-1AF9-418E-AA58-0D8C055CDBDF@shiresoft.com> On Apr 7, 2013, at 8:49 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Apr 7, 2013, at 3:16 AM, MG wrote: > >> On 7-apr-2013 7:55, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> *laugh* >>> >>> I'll tell IBM to "get right on that". I'm sure they'll value your sage >>> business advice. >>> >> >> By the way, you should ditch the Cold War mentality at least. Not >> everybody who doesn't blindly kiss the /behind/ of IBM (like you) >> is a 'traitor'. > > *sigh* > > I wasn't going to jump into this but... > > For those that say the mainframe (specifically IBM 360/370/390/z-series architecture) > is dead, I would say not. Not only are they suited to do traditional "mainframe" tasks > but they're *really* good at virtual hosting. You know the virtualization stuff that's been > touted by the likes of VMWare, Microsoft, etc on Intel platforms for the last few years. > Well, IBM's been doing that since 370 days (early 1970's). They do virtualization better > than anyone...almost no IBM shops run the OS on the "metal". They're run inside a VM. > It's just that good. > > Linux has been ported to the z-series. As an experiment, IBM wanted to see how many > Linux VM clients could be run (basically to see what it would be like for a hosting company). > They stopped at 42,000 Linux clients running on a *single* z-series. They stopped not > because the performance was unacceptable or because they ran into any limits...they got > tired of adding VMs! > > It's an architecture that will soon be 50 years old. The original 360 architecture (which was > not only the ISA but also how I/O was interfaced) has been surprisingly resilient. > > I cast suspicion on anyone who says something is "dead". Not only have I been hearing > that the mainframe is dead since the late 70's, I've also been hearing that the disk drive > is dead for about the same period of time. How's that going? Oh, and here's some more on the zSeries (copied from wikipedia): A direct comparison of System z servers with other computing platforms is difficult. For example, System z servers offload such functions as I/O processing, cryptography, memory control, and various service functions (such as hardware configuration management and error logging) to dedicated processors. These "extra" processors are in addition to the (up to) 101 CPs per frame. System z cores include extensive self checking of results, and if an error is detected the server retries the instruction. If the instruction still fails, the server shuts down the failing processor and shifts workload, "in flight," to a surviving spare processor. The IBM mainframe then "calls home" (automatically places a service call to IBM). An IBM service technician replaces the failed component with a replacement part (possibly even a new processor book, consisting of a group of processors). With System z9 servers, the technician installs the new book and removes the old one without interruption to running applications. (Note that mainframes have reported MTBF figures of 20-50 years). Similar design redundancies exist in memory, I/O, power, cooling, and other subsystems. All these features exist at the hardware and microcode level, without special application programming. The same concepts can extend to coupled frames separated by up to 100km in a Geographically Dispersed Parallel Sysplex when z/OS is used. As has been said by others, mainframes are used by organizations that care about data availability and uptime. BTW zSeries, the z stands for "zero downtime". TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Apr 7 11:22:14 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 09:22:14 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2013, at 3:16 AM, MG wrote: > On 7-apr-2013 7:55, Dave McGuire wrote: >> *laugh* >> >> I'll tell IBM to "get right on that". I'm sure they'll value your sage >> business advice. >> >> Troll. > > > By the way, you should ditch the Cold War mentality at least. Not > everybody who doesn't blindly kiss the /behind/ of IBM (like you) > is a 'traitor'. More nails... This one for fun: mainframe[1]: n. 1. An obsolete device still used by thousands of obsolete companies serving billions of obsolete customers and making huge obsolete profits for their obsolete shareholders. And this year's run twice as fast as last year's. n. 2. A large PC peripheral [1] The Devil's IT Dictionary The following is from a white paper written by Atos Origin: The mainframe platform has a reputation for its extremely high level of quality but, amongst those who do not use them, for being expensive, monolithic and inflexible (that would be you Marco). Yet it can be very cost-effective compared to a proliferation of smaller systems, can be flexibly configured and re-configured. There is further irony in any resistance to the use of mainframes, because everyone in IT is talking about virtualisation and utility computing (see Introducing Utility Computing, Atos Origin, October 2006). But both concepts have been around in the mainframe world for 30 years or more. By providing virtualisation, VMware is doing for Intel platforms what VM/370 did on mainframes in the 1970?s. Mainframe is a utility service, and has almost always been so. Many advocates of utility services are actually ?reinventing the mainframe? in many aspects of what they seek to achieve. Another interesting statistic is average capacity utilization: Wintel-based servers: 8-15% Unix/RISC: 28-45% Mainframes: 65-75% It's also noted that mainframes (zSeries) can and do run at 100% utilization for long periods quite happily. Try that with a non-mainframe! TTFN - Guy From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 11:25:39 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 12:25:39 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_?= =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2013, at 11:52 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Apr 7, 2013, at 11:48 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Clueless! > > I think we need a sarcasm/facetious font for our e-mails. The problem is we in retro-land only do ASCII e-mails, and the wind up in flamewars :( He wasn't being sarcastic or facetious, he was being an ass. A clueless one at that. Not inserting pictures, fonts, and dancing bears into email messages, inflating them to dozens of times the size they should be is "clueful and prudent". "Retro" would be writing said emails on a Teletype. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 11:39:32 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 16:39:32 +0000 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Al Kossow" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 07/04/2013 00:40:26 Subject: Re: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? >On 4/6/13 3:29 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: >>Folks may be able to help know what museums are close by. >> > >Museums are not landfills. > >Think about the fact that the longer the common stuff is around >the more likely it will be that an artifact will already have >been acquired for a collection. > >It is better to be thinking about finding other collectors than >hoping a museum is going to want your stuff at some time in the >indefinite future. > >If you really do have something rare enough a collecting institution >would be interested in it, work out the details ahead of time. > > > Whilst I am not acting on behalf of MOSI. Manchester, I am pretty sure from conversations I have had with Curatorial staff that they have very specific collection goals. That is any exhibit should help tell the story of computing either North West England, either as part of another industry, or as an Industry in its own right. Display space and storage space is as much a problem for them as for most home collectors (they also have static steam engines, steam locomotives and aeroplanes). So Rob if you have anything which might fulfils those goals let me know and I'll give you a contact. I am personally very sad that they do have equipment which isn't on show but which has vanished from Computing "in the wild", and which would tell a story about computing in the northwest UK, so go here and enter "Computer":- http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/search.php?type=Object in the subject search, and not whats in storage.... From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 7 12:16:33 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I cast suspicion on anyone who says something is "dead". Not only have I been hearing > that the mainframe is dead since the late 70's, I've also been hearing that the disk drive > is dead for about the same period of time. How's that going? IIRC, the first time that I read "The Mainframe is Dead" was before the existence or even proposal of MICRO-computers, in an article belatedly "announcing" the existence of Mini-computers. About the same time, "books and libraries are dead", but well before "disk drives (spinning rust with moving parts) are dead". Does the population of the UNdead exceed that of the living? Where's my damn hovercar? That was s'posed to make automobiles dead. Where's the advanced (DNA?) medical research that would end cancer and aging? (and make Death Dead) The Mainframe certainly IS dead, IFF we define it as such. Some current ones no longer require a forklift and a UNION moving crew. Many/most are no longer larger enough for you, or any but a TINY scope, to get lost in. If we define "mainframe" as more than 32 bits or more than 1MB of RAM, then there are now billions? of them. (YES, those were used as definitions once!) If we define "mainframe" as the 99th percentile of size, then by definition they can never die. Please tell me that Dell doesn't make anything that they call a "Mainframe"! If we define computer based "mobile devices" (otherwise known as a "phone") as being computers, then mainframes certainly occupy less than 0.01% of the numbers, or maybe even bandwidth!. Disunirregardless of whether the mainframe population is growing or shrinking. Ken Olsen (DEC) once said that there was only need for half a dozen. So long as there is still need for half a dozen, then it ain't dead! "Who would want a computer on their desk?" It might as well be in "The Clod"! Certainly, there are MANY tasks, such as beginning programming classes, that once used mainframes, and have finally been moved to more appropriate platforms. But, we shall continue to reinvent the flat-tire. What manages "The Clod"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 12:20:26 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 13:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for Apple Lisa 2/5 parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Even with bad caps, I tried both motherboards but no luck. I had checked > most of the traces on the I/O board and found that I had to push in pins on > the COP421 to make contact. I've replaced the socket since and could power > up the Lisa with one of the motherboards!. After replacing the COP421 > socket, my I/O board seems to be semi-working. My original Lisa 2/5 with > the DEC CRT works fine (note for those who have bad burn-in) but I get an > I/O board "Error 52" and that's where I am today. I think I may need a > COP421 but that is kinda difficult to find and locating this is no > guarantee that the I/O board is okay. It's worth keeping an eye on eBay. I picked up a 2/10 I/O board at a reasonable price last fall. The 2/10 board can be made to work in a 2/5 by performing minor surgery on the "Lisa Lite" floppy interface board. -- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 7 12:33:01 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> It's hard to GIVE collections away! I could will it all in a will, but then my executioner is stuck with getting it OUT. Physically disposing of all of the old computer magazines, etc. will cost more in time and effort (for which she will need to be compensated) then she will be willing to deal with. What is a stack of untested ST-4096s worth? NO, she is NOT going to test them in order to get "full value" for the ones that work. When I closed my business, there were only a few people who would come get things. Sellam hauled away quite a few cubic yards of stuff. I need to move out of my [jamful] office at the college, when I retire at the end of this semester. I have several cubic yards of goodies to get rid of. But, "Free Pickup In Berkeley" doesn't work! When I list a handful of items, people want me to ship it to them. Half never reimburse me the postage! I'm swamped, exhausted, ill, caring for my even more incapacitated 90 year old mother, and unable to get done what NEEDS to be done. I can not deal with packing each item one at a time, and PAYING to get rid of them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com 0.42 semester left From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Apr 7 12:33:15 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:33:15 -0700 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Ken Olsen (DEC) once said that there was only need for half a dozen Wasn't TJ Watson Sr.? TTFN - Guy From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 12:44:56 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 13:44:56 -0400 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5161B098.7010303@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 01:33 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Ken Olsen (DEC) once said that there was only need for half a dozen > > Wasn't TJ Watson Sr.? I believe so, and I believe it was "I see a world market for about five computers." -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 12:45:58 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 13:45:58 -0400 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5161B0D6.4010100@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 01:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > What manages "The Clod"? Clods! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 7 12:50:20 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 18:50:20 +0100 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <01b001ce33b8$608f0db0$21ad2910$@ntlworld.com> Not sure I am doing it right, my searches come up empty. I entered "Computer Collection" in Collection Name, and "Computer" under Subject. By the way I don't have anything that is North West England specific unfortunately, except perhaps some artefacts from the Manchester University Dataflow project. The rest is DEC stuff, and a Teletype(!). I doubt MOSI would be interested in most of this. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Sent: 07 April 2013 17:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re[2]: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Al Kossow" > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Sent: 07/04/2013 00:40:26 > Subject: Re: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > >On 4/6/13 3:29 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > >>Folks may be able to help know what museums are close by. > >> > > > >Museums are not landfills. > > > >Think about the fact that the longer the common stuff is around the > >more likely it will be that an artifact will already have been acquired > >for a collection. > > > >It is better to be thinking about finding other collectors than hoping > >a museum is going to want your stuff at some time in the indefinite > >future. > > > >If you really do have something rare enough a collecting institution > >would be interested in it, work out the details ahead of time. > > > > > > > Whilst I am not acting on behalf of MOSI. Manchester, I am pretty sure from > conversations I have had with Curatorial staff that they have very specific > collection goals. That is any exhibit should help tell the story of computing > either North West England, either as part of another industry, or as an > Industry in its own right. Display space and storage space is as much a > problem for them as for most home collectors (they also have static steam > engines, steam locomotives and aeroplanes). So Rob if you have anything > which might fulfils those goals let me know and I'll give you a contact. > > I am personally very sad that they do have equipment which isn't on show > but which has vanished from Computing "in the wild", and which would tell > a story about computing in the northwest UK, so go here and enter > "Computer":- > > http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/search.php?type=Objec > t > > in the subject search, and not whats in storage.... From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Apr 7 12:59:35 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 13:59:35 -0400 Subject: XT-IDE V2 PCBs available Message-ID: <000301ce33b9$b70c8360$25258a20$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! There are some XT-IDE V2 PCBs available if anyone would like some. They will cost the same as before ($12 each). However due to unforeseen extreme price increases in shipping by USPS I am forced to change shipping costs. Shipping in the US will be $3 for a single PCB and $2 for each additional PCB. Shipping internationally will be $10 for a single PCB and $3 for each additional PCB. This is for the bare basics USPS first class postage with no tracking or insurance. The builder assumes all risk of delivery as per usual arrangement. I apologize for the large price increase on shipping but this is out of my hands. The USPS is in dire financial trouble and is raising prices on shipping. It affects us all and is most unfortunate. These boards are provided "at cost" so there is no margin to absorb any shipping price increases. I have to pass them along. If you would like one or more XT-IDE V2 PCBs please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showwiki.php?title=XTIDE+Rev2 There are about 10 XT-IDE V2 PCBs left. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 7 13:12:25 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 11:12:25 -0700 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5161B709.7010703@bitsavers.org> On 4/7/13 10:33 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > When I closed my business, there were only a few people who would come > get things. Sellam hauled away quite a few cubic yards of stuff. > and that collection is being disposed of, as was CHAC's when History San Jose aquired the Perham collection. If someone were serious about starting a museum (as opposed to exhibiting a personal collection) you need to think about sustainability. It's easy to collect a huge pile of stuff, then the expensive part begins (cataloging, storage and preservation costs, exhibit design, construction, and maintenance). CHAC and Sellam both failed in the later. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 7 13:16:17 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 19:16:17 +0100 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <01b401ce33bc$00e66350$02b329f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 07 April 2013 18:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re[2]: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > > It's hard to GIVE collections away! > > I could will it all in a will, but then my executioner is stuck with getting it > OUT. Physically disposing of all of the old computer magazines, etc. will > cost more in time and effort (for which she will need to be compensated) > then she will be willing to deal with. > What is a stack of untested ST-4096s worth? NO, she is NOT going to test > them in order to get "full value" for the ones that work. > > When I closed my business, there were only a few people who would come > get things. Sellam hauled away quite a few cubic yards of stuff. > > > I need to move out of my [jamful] office at the college, when I retire at the > end of this semester. > > I have several cubic yards of goodies to get rid of. > But, "Free Pickup In Berkeley" doesn't work! > When I list a handful of items, people want me to ship it to them. > Half never reimburse me the postage! > I'm swamped, exhausted, ill, caring for my even more incapacitated 90 year > old mother, and unable to get done what NEEDS to be done. > I can not deal with packing each item one at a time, and PAYING to get rid > of them. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > 0.42 semester left I love the typo for "executor" :-) I can see that it might be a problem getting rid of stuff, but if it is worth keeping it must be worth shipping, it would be a shame just to dump it. I find it disappointing to see that people don't reimburse the shipping, could you not insist on payment up front plus a bit extra for the time and effort? Regards Rob From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 13:30:55 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 14:30:55 -0400 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5161BB5F.8050005@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 01:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > What is a stack of untested ST-4096s worth? NO, she is NOT going to > test them in order to get "full value" for the ones that work. Hey, if you just happen to have a stack of untested ST-4096s.. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Apr 7 13:32:38 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 13:32:38 -0500 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5161BBC6.3080603@pico-systems.com> Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:13:42 +0100 From: Colin Eby To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Jon, First, lemme reassert my non-expert status on this. However, my understanding of PE -- phase encoding as a raw signal -- is that a 0 is a low to high transition(Thomas or reversed high to low for IEEE) against a fixed clock time. Successive 0s have to be encoded taking the sign low to high, before going high to low again. The system is to ignore those signals and simply count the transition at the mid-point of the period. Setting the blocking aside, doesn't that mean you end up with two transitions in a period for every zero. And if you write zero to every channel you get a nice sine wave at the pre-amp, with the parity bit being the inverse signal (all ones). NZRI would of course be rather different. But for PE, this is my understand of the signal inside a block. I believe that's the signal form you were thinking of. OH, you meant to write the tape in 1600 BPI (PE) mode! yes, that would put 3200 transitions per inch on all data channels, but the parity channel would have its transitions out of phase with the data channels. PE mode will write two transitions for every bit time when the same bit (1 or zero) is written, but for alternating 1's and zeros, you only get one transition per bit time. The polarity of the transition at the center of the bit time contains the data bit, and additional transition needs to be added when the same data bit follows. See Page 4-11 of this doc for a picture : Generally, skew is not worried about so much in PE mode, the drives have FIFOs to resync the data. But, of course after repairing the head mounting, it could be WAY off, too far for the FIFO to correct. They usually only have 9 bit times worth of skew correction. Anyway, most older 800 BPI drives have circuitry built-in to assist in skew adjustment, an analog summing circuit that adds the output of the 9 bit detectors together. The stepped square wave is very easy to interpret and adjust on a scope. I've never done skew adjustment on 1600 or 6250, I think it would be harder than on 800 BPI. I think the best bet is a digital or storage scope, looking at data channels 4 and 5 (the outermost ones on the tape) on two scope channels, and triggering so the first transitions of a block are seen. The preamble is 40 bytes of all zeros, then one 1, followed by the data. Jon From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 13:34:19 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 18:34:19 +0000 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <01b001ce33b8$608f0db0$21ad2910$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Rob Jarratt" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 07/04/2013 18:50:20 Subject: RE: Re[2]: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? >Not sure I am doing it right, my searches come up empty. I entered >"Computer Collection" in Collection Name, and "Computer" under Subject. > Sorry, don't touch the "collections" box, just put "computer" into the "Object Summary" box. It should then become obvious as to why you leave collections blank... >By the way I don't have anything that is North West England specific >unfortunately, except perhaps some artefacts from the Manchester >University Dataflow project. The DataFlow project probably fits with the collections policy. Oddly Pete Lomas of Norcott Technologies who designed the Raspberry PI Hardware worked on the Dataflow project... >The rest is DEC stuff, and a Teletype(!). I doubt MOSI would be >interested in most of this. If it has Northwest connections then it may be of interest. So I know GEC Althsom who designed the Metrolink trams were a big DEC house, as were BNFL , so kit with connections to these may be of interest... > >Regards > >Rob > Dave G4UGM >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave >> Sent: 07 April 2013 17:40 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re[2]: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? >> >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "Al Kossow" >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Sent: 07/04/2013 00:40:26 >> Subject: Re: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? >> >On 4/6/13 3:29 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: >> >>Folks may be able to help know what museums are close by. >> >> >> > >> >Museums are not landfills. >> > >> >Think about the fact that the longer the common stuff is around the >> >more likely it will be that an artifact will already have been >>acquired >> >for a collection. >> > >> >It is better to be thinking about finding other collectors than >>hoping >> >a museum is going to want your stuff at some time in the indefinite >> >future. >> > >> >If you really do have something rare enough a collecting institution >> >would be interested in it, work out the details ahead of time. >> > >> > >> > >> Whilst I am not acting on behalf of MOSI. Manchester, I am pretty >>sure from >> conversations I have had with Curatorial staff that they have very >>specific >> collection goals. That is any exhibit should help tell the story of >>computing >> either North West England, either as part of another industry, or as >>an >> Industry in its own right. Display space and storage space is as much >>a >> problem for them as for most home collectors (they also have static >>steam >> engines, steam locomotives and aeroplanes). So Rob if you have >>anything >> which might fulfils those goals let me know and I'll give you a >>contact. >> >> I am personally very sad that they do have equipment which isn't on >>show >> but which has vanished from Computing "in the wild", and which would >>tell >> a story about computing in the northwest UK, so go here and enter >> "Computer":- >> >> >>http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/search.php?type=Objec >> t >> >> in the subject search, and not whats in storage.... > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 7 13:36:29 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 11:36:29 -0700 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5161BCAD.6040206@sydex.com> On 04/07/2013 10:16 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > IIRC, the first time that I read "The Mainframe is Dead" was before the > existence or even proposal of MICRO-computers, in an article belatedly > "announcing" the existence of Mini-computers. > > About the same time, "books and libraries are dead", > but well before "disk drives (spinning rust with moving parts) are dead". How about the paperless office? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 7 13:40:44 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: <5161B098.7010303@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> <5161B098.7010303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130407113209.Y53497@shell.lmi.net> > > Wasn't TJ Watson Sr.? On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > I believe so, and I believe it was "I see a world market for about five > computers." . . . and, until the population of them drops below five, the mainframe is obviously not dead. There don't need to be "millions". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wheagy at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 14:32:50 2013 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 15:32:50 -0400 Subject: Apple Quicktake camera Windows software? Message-ID: I picked up a Quicktake 100 camera this weekend for cheap and am trying to get it working under Windows so I can easily get pictures to my Website, but I am unable to locate the Windows software. Anyone have a link? An hour on Google has yielded little except the driverguide website which was very frustrating. Tks...Win From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Apr 7 14:32:17 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:32:17 +0200 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: <51609B46.90907@verizon.net> References: <51609B46.90907@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20130407213217.aa747a3aae924ca5439db2de@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 18:01:42 -0400 allison wrote: > The only common card set that depends on CD is RL11 The KDA50 doesn't use CD? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 14:41:22 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 21:41:22 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161CBE2.1040605@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 18:25, Dave McGuire wrote: > He wasn't being sarcastic or facetious, he was being an ass. > A clueless one at that. I'm probably waiting for the true gospel of IBM, like you did. In the meantime, please excuse me oh wise one. > "Retro" would be writing said emailson a Teletype. No, that would be dysfunctional I believe. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 14:55:25 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 21:55:25 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161CF2D.6040003@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 17:49, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > For those that say the mainframe (specifically IBM 360/370/390/z-series > architecture) is dead, I would say not. For the record, /I/ didn't say it was dead; I was mostly quoting others and also referenced an article. I've mostly observed that it's, although perhaps not dead (yet?), /rather invisible/ nowadays. I'm not sure what is worse. Call me strange and unusual, but I thought a platform --- and any platform, at that --- fared better with (well, you know) a solid and sizable user/install base. That people at least know what it (read: said platform) is, so they can mentally prepare themselves with using it and not be totally flabbergasted and estranged by its uses and purposes, when suddenly becoming acquainted with such a platform. > Not only are they suited to do traditional "mainframe" tasks but > they're *really* good at virtual hosting. A bit too /virtual/ nowadays, like I said. > You know the virtualization stuff that's been touted by the likes > of VMWare, Microsoft, etc on Intel platforms for the last few years. I know, but where is IBM to remind people of its origins and to give them the opportunity to get acquainted with the, I'll admit, impressive looking z/VM platform(s). > Well, IBM's been doing that since 370 days (early 1970's). The "since 370 days" bit confused me a bit at a first glance... > Linux has been ported to the z-series. But very few flavors (i.e. distributions) seem to support it and I wonder how many Linux people had even the opportunity to try it. > They stopped at 42,000 Linux clients running on a *single* z-series. Impressive, but what kind of workloads though? > They stopped not because the performance was unacceptable or because > they ran into any limits...they got tired of adding VMs! Do you remember where you read about this, out of curiosity? I would not mind to read more into this myself. > I cast suspicion on anyone who says something is "dead". Why? > Not only have I been hearing that the mainframe is dead since the > late70's, I've also been hearing that the disk drive is dead for > about thesame period of time. How's that going? Actually, solid state/flash memory technology is beginning to make inroads, especially nowadays. Is that what they were going on about back then? (Or perhaps crusty tape zealots?) Whether the mainframe is dead or not: How often do you hear about it? Some school textbooks in the 1980s would still, even somewhat colloquially, still mention the term "mainframe". How often does that still happen nowadays? Where are the future mainframe maintainers and developers supposed to come from, IBM mystery land? - MG From gyorpb at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 14:55:39 2013 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:55:39 +0200 Subject: Apple Quicktake camera Windows software? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <893D604D-2893-405A-A7EF-21E6A2F64023@gmail.com> On 7 apr. 2013, at 21:32, Win Heagy wrote: > I picked up a Quicktake 100 camera this weekend for cheap and am trying to > get it working under Windows so I can easily get pictures to my Website, > but I am unable to locate the Windows software. Anyone have a link? An > hour on Google has yielded little except the driverguide website which was > very frustrating. The QuickTake 100 and 150 were rebadged Kodak cameras. It might help to include those in your search. .tsooJ -- Wherever you go, there you are. -- Joost van de Griek From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 14:59:09 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 21:59:09 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <1A9DF49B-1AF9-418E-AA58-0D8C055CDBDF@shiresoft.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <1A9DF49B-1AF9-418E-AA58-0D8C055CDBDF@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5161D00D.5020701@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 18:06, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > As has been said by others, mainframes are used byorganizations > that care about data availability and uptime. BTW zSeries, the z > stands for "zero downtime". So what? That's just marketing. "NonStop" boils down to the same and would proclaim the same (or better, depending who you're dealing with) degree of resilience. - MG From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 15:00:42 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 16:00:42 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516191AD.7060306@bitsavers.org> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> <516191AD.7060306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > A good idea. I have better things to do with my life. -- Will From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Apr 7 16:00:36 2013 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 16:00:36 -0500 Subject: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 02:01:36 -0400 From: Dave McGuire > I WILL try to stop "feeding the troll". Try a little harder! You're the one participant common to almost every one of these ridiculous and absolutely pointless kids-in-a-sandbox pissing contests... Seriously, have you thought about how much time you spend feeding the trolls and how much better you could spend that time (not to mention the time the rest of us waste wading through this dreck)? m From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 15:01:39 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:01:39 +0200 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: <20130407113209.Y53497@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> <5161B098.7010303@neurotica.com> <20130407113209.Y53497@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5161D0A3.3090804@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 20:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > . . . and, until the population of them drops below five, the mainframe > is obviously not dead. > There don't need to be "millions". Sounds rather... /foreboding/. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 15:01:54 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:01:54 +0200 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: <20130407113209.Y53497@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> <5161B098.7010303@neurotica.com> <20130407113209.Y53497@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5161D0B2.8010808@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 20:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > . . . and, until the population of them drops below five, the mainframe > is obviously not dead. > There don't need to be "millions". Sounds rather... foreboding. - MG From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 15:04:49 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 13:04:49 -0700 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: <20130407213217.aa747a3aae924ca5439db2de@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <51609B46.90907@verizon.net> <20130407213217.aa747a3aae924ca5439db2de@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 18:01:42 -0400 > allison wrote: > >> The only common card set that depends on CD is RL11 > The KDA50 doesn't use CD? The M7164 and M7165 are connected via 40-conductor and 50-conductor intermodule cables, not the CD interconnect on the backplane. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 15:11:40 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:11:40 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 18:22, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > There is further irony in any resistance to the use of mainframes, > because everyone in IT is talking about virtualisation and utility > computing (see Introducing Utility Computing, Atos Origin, October > 2006). But both concepts have been around in the mainframe world for > 30 years or more. By providing virtualisation, VMware is doing for > Intel platforms what VM/370 did onmainframes in the 1970?s. > Mainframe is a utility service, and has almostalways been so. Many > advocates of utility services are actually ?reinventingthe mainframe? > in many aspects of what they seek to achieve. So, why is IBM allowing this to happen? Why aren't they there to give VMware and others hell, perhaps even supply a bit more economical solution for the /little people/? Why does IBM assume that people will have the telepathic ability to learn about IBM and its products? For a supposedly successful platform, with no problems at all (which, by the way, that earlier Inquirer article of late 2012 doesn't seem to support), it sure seems relegated to obscurity and extreme niches at best. For a supposedly successful platform, why isn't IBM interested in making it even more successful and getting more people to use and perhaps switch to it? Why is IBM building "x" (and "i" and "p" for that matter), why not /just/ "z"? > Another interesting statistic is average capacity utilization: > Wintel-based servers: 8-15% > Unix/RISC: 28-45% > Mainframes: 65-75% Where did you get these figures from? > It's also noted that mainframes (zSeries) can and do run at 100% > utilization for long periods quite happily. Try that with a non- > mainframe! 100% utilization, thus with no headroom whatsoever; that's a good idea in general...? (Regardless of whether a specific platform would subdue or become less stable, or whatever.) - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 15:16:10 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:16:10 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161D40A.10609@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 22:11, I wrote: > [...] that earlier Inquirer article [...] Correction: That should be the Register. (See it referenced in this thread.) - MG From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 10:01:27 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:01:27 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 Message-ID: I put information on converting an RP06 to 220VAC single-phase here: https://sites.google.com/site/mthompsonorg/Home/pdp-10/rm03-and-rp06-information/rp06 From: John Wilson > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 > On Fri, Apr 05, 2013 at 08:18:20PM -0500, Jon Elson wrote: > > >The RM07 also was 3-phase, I think all the smaller VAX 780 > >disks were single-phase. > > RM02/03/05/80 are definitely single-phase. RP07 is 3-phase as you say, > as is RP06 and I assume therefore RP05. Dunno about RP04. > > >The RM07 was a total monstrosity > >from Burroughs, I hope you don't have one of those. We went through > >a lot of pain as one of the early adopters of that, but in the > >end it was a high performance drive and fairly reliable. > > I've heard you have to pop the RP07's top whenever it's running or it > overheats... otherwise good though, and huge for the time. > > John Wilson > D Bit > -- Michael Thompson From craig at solomonson.net Sun Apr 7 13:24:50 2013 From: craig at solomonson.net (craig at solomonson.net) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 13:24:50 -0500 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's Message-ID: I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room had a few posters hanging on the wall. As I recall, Snoopy was probably the most popular subject along with "space stuff." I just had to piece these old posters together and see what I had printed back in 1981. It turns out that at least 2 of them were from the Princeton University Computer Center Clinic and done by Samuel P. Harbison in 1973. The third one of the Golden Gate Bridge is huge (8 ft. wide and 6.5 ft. tall) and no credits were given. Here are some photos of them for those that are interested: Golden Gate Bridge (with a PAA airplane) - 96" x 78": http://www.solomonson.net/computers/GoldenGate.jpg One Giant Leap (man on the moon) - 40" x 33": http://www.solomonson.net/computers/GiantLeap.jpg The Moon - 59" x 55": http://www.solomonson.net/computers/Moon.jpg From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Apr 7 16:13:29 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 17:13:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, craig at solomonson.net wrote: > I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through > some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room > had a few posters hanging on the wall. As I recall, Snoopy was probably the > most popular subject along with "space stuff." I just had to piece these old > posters together and see what I had printed back in 1981. It turns out that > at least 2 of them were from the Princeton University Computer Center Clinic > and done by Samuel P. Harbison in 1973. > ... Thanks for posting those, Craig. I hadn't seen the Golden Gate before - I don't suppose you still have the card deck for that? I tracked down Sam Harbison a couple of years ago, and he responded to my note with a nice explanation of process he used: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ASCII/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 16:14:00 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 17:14:00 -0400 Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> Message-ID: > I'm highjacking this thread. I'm debating starting a museum locally, as we don't have anything like this in the Indianapolis area. > > For those who have started such endeavors, what are your stories in getting the ball rolling? Plan. Plan. Plan some more. Plan for the distant future. Part of this planning involves a Collections Policy. This is a document that defines the collection - what is to be included, and what is to be turned away. It has been said by many folks over the years that artifacts (hardware) are the easiest things to find, and in time, will completely take over any and all space a museum has. A nice, focused Collection Policy THAT IS ADHERED TO will keep things under control, and keep quality high. Yes, quality is better than quantity. I have been part of a decent number of independent little museums over the years (computer and otherwise, but all being tech related), and nearly all of them have let their collections bloat out of control, due to the lack of a Collections Policy. Trust me - you do not want to get in this situation. Think of all the good stuff later on that has to be passed up because there is no room. Think of the infighting and politics when you need to get rid of things. Think of moving the collection with all the excess when you lose your space. Think of what visitors are looking at. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 16:26:38 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 17:26:38 -0400 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <5161B709.7010703@bitsavers.org> References: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> <5161B709.7010703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > CHAC and Sellam both failed in the later. And a number of current independent computer museums are in the process of failing - they just do not realize it yet. Startup museums should study the history of museums, and maybe learn something from what they find. -- Will From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Apr 7 16:33:03 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:33:03 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> On 04/07/2013 08:49 AM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Was it indeed usual to build such large configurations based on an 11/23 back then? >> That was not a small configuration, but it wasn't uncommon. >> >> [data points for system configurations from Ethan and Allison] > allison wrote: >> Not at all uncommon. Usually the disk round out might have left out the >> RQDX or the RX02 >> but many in the day wanted to move from 8" to 5.25 for space and needed >> one system to do both. > OK, some more enlightenment absorbed. > >> You will want RX50 or RX02 as those were and are common media. >> Either way a RX02 or RX50 was the common simple and cheap storage >> that offered portability. > Mass storage for my system is another area I need to spend more thought on, for now I was planning to stay with the RL drives I got with the case. > In the PDP11 world its easy to build a system that forgets portable IO. A reminder PDP-11 as not a PC and even a 256kb floppy is viable storage as RT11 fits on it. >> RL packs were over 160$ new and didn't like to >> be bounced. FYI drives like RL02 were nearly as expensive as the base >> machine ($8-12K). > The drives are not the problem, I have those. I will need to check them out and get myself some more packs though. On second thought, some kind of floppy might be nice, too, but that is not a must now. cables, terminators and those annoying and scarce drive ID plugs. If anything the floppy is always a must on my systems as all my diags and base RT11 systems are on that media (RX01, RX02, RX50, RX33, RX23). > If pressed for more mass storage, I could always put my QBus SMD controller (and a CMD Phoenix fixed/removable drive combination I was recently offered )to use with this machine, although I had got those rather imagined using them with my VSII/GPX. > A viable uVAX is more than 150mb, (more like 300-500 for V7), a loaded PDP11 is 30MB. Just difference is OS utilization. I would not covet a large drive unless you had the application that required it. >> Its easier to find Dias on RX50 or RX02 though I've seen them on TK50 >> but hated loading them form that (slow!). > I do have a TQK(mumble) board already (which was originally also intended for the VSII), but no drive yet. Save it as loading diags from TK50 is both slow and painful assuming the system can boot a tK50 (not guaranteed). >>> TQK50, DEQNA and RQDX3 at least sound sound a bit anachronistic >>> to me, there surely must have been newer and more powerful >>> processors out at the time those became available? > >> There were - you could get a MicroPDP-11 with a KDJ11, and lots >> of people did, but they cost more. I wouldn't have wanted to run >> an RSX-11/M+ system on a KDF11, but I did see plenty of them on >> KDJ11 processors (but even more on Unibus machines). >> >> TK50 was tape DLT tape. DEQNA was ethernet, and RQDX3 was >> MSCP floppy and hard disk controller. >> >> CPU typically was 11/23+ or 11/73 later on for a price. > So the distinction between the rackmount and MicroPDP/VAX eras wasn't as sharp as I imagined it. > I have such boards (ok, a DELQA in this case) in said VSII. There was considerable overlap in uVAX and Qbus PDP-11, they shared all the same peripherals. The DEQNA is DELQA for all intents its a generational thing. The key is not all of the older PDP-11 software supported the later Qbus uPDP-11/uVAX hardware. > >>> I think I'll have a rather minimal system (KDF11-B, 512kW RAM, >>> quad SLU, RLV12 + one or drives) for now, not making my first >>> foray into pdp technology more complicated than necessary. >> I would call that a mid-range Q-bus PDP-11 myself, not "minimal". >> Among other characteristics, I personally think of Q22 as "not minimal". >> You can do a lot with RT-11 in 18 bits of memory. > My fault, I should have been more specific and included: "in terms of features/peripherals/board count". Also, I was thinking relative to all 11s, not just QBUS. The unibus 11s tended to grow larger in IO as the bus speeds supported higher transfer rates. Also the larger Unibus PDP11s were faster than the 11/23 and the 11/73 only just caught up. >> The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day that was >> as costly as the base machine if not more. > I understand that memory was at a premium back then. > Out of interest, how common was core memory (H223 and similar) in QBUS systems? > Is BBU supported for the MOS memory options? The older LSI11 systems had it if there was a call for non volatile memory, the cost was high. I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle time than Ram of the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on the day was under 1us and dropping. > >>> I would call that a mid-range Q-bus PDP-11 myself, not "minimal". >>> (...) >>> Among other characteristics, I personally think of Q22 as "not minimal". >>> You can do a lot with RT-11 in 18 bits of memory. >> Yes, you can even in 16bits. I also have a tiny system using M8186 in a >> 12 slot dual wide cage running 512KB ram (4 boards), MRV11 (boot), >> DLV11J for serial IO, and TU58 for storage. It boots the TU and copies >> it to VM: and reboots from there making for a small but very fast >> RT-11 system. The OS only use the 28KW and the rest is a virtual >> disk (ram disk) big enough to copy the whole base os and a few >> useful apps. > What OS to use is yet another undecided question, I haven't even read up on the options. > I could also just try out some bare metal programming at the ODT for a start. Start with RT11 as a base os and it will allow you to test and get comfortable at lower cost to learn. It will be transferable knowledge to RSTS or RSX, may help with getting Unix on the machine. > >> I think you meant 150MB for RQDXm for its upper limit. For larger >> there were large disks but that was uncommon for Qbus 11s. >> RT11 could barely fill (the whole mess) a 20mb drie with much room >> left over. For RSTS or RSX a 31mb (RD52) was enough and two >> did the trick. > So with just 1-2 RL0x drives, I'm pretty much stuck with RT-11? I've read that it has a lot in common with later DOS, so that might not even be a bad thing after all :) RT11 only need a RX02. one RL02 can hold the entire RT11 install kit (EVERTHING). I run RT11 on TU58 tape (256kb per tape *2), one tape ahs the whole os with about 30-50K free space the other is not required. RSTS and RSX may want more than one RL02 for enough space for users. A RD52 (31MB) is large enough that RT11 barely filled a corner. RSTS runs many users in that space , RSX will fit with a lot of free space. Unix V6 fist on a RL02 with about 3-5000 free blocks (block =512bytes). Compared to VAX/VMS V5.44H barely fits on a 150mb drive with limited user space. Command line for both RT and VMS looks the same (DCL). The base monitor and os can run in 16kb of ram on PDP11. >> larger systems often had mag tape either DLT (tk50) >> or 9track for backup and sneakernet (off site or remote systems >> before WAN). > No such stuff in sight alas, but ISTR there is some sort of emulator software that makes a PC act as a serially-attached tape device? Yes, it can allow emulation of the TU58 tape that used a serial interface. At 38.2K RT11 takes about 5 minutes to boot on a tu58 (real) the emulated version is faster (no physical rewind/searches needed) but its still not fast enough to consider anything other than RT. >> When I was using the BA11N system I described, I owned an RL01 >> because I couldn't afford an RL02. >> >> FWIW, I was messing with this system just last month. It's still intact. > Nice to hear that. How problematic are the BA11-N power supplies, BTW? > Not bad really but they are aging and until you know the status of what you get test it! >>> The system I still use is the tall (50") rack BA-11 CPU I used in my office >>> when I was in the Mill (ML03-6/B5) as a utility system for printing and >>> off line (non VAX work). Still fun to use and I even have a few >>> uVAX3100s running VMS for it to talk to. >> Cool. > Seconded :) > Actually I have seven Uvax 3100s, two are m76s, 3 uVAX-2000, one has no media as I use it to format media and two uVAX-IIs one in ba23 and the other in a BA123 with a full rack of disks (RQDX3 RX50, RD4, CMD SCSI and three RZ56s). The PDP-11 collection includes LSI-11 in BAllN, BA11V with m8186 F11, three BA11S boxes with 11/2, 11/23, and 11/23+ and a Ba11s in a 50" rack (the loaded 11/73 system). There is also an H11 (LSI11 with heath IO, memory, and box). I keep a Ba23 in a pedestal case uPDP-11 (11/23based, rqdx2 with RD31 and RX50). The only other DEC systems I have are Robin aka VT180 which is a VT100 with Vt180 board so it can be a complete terminal with Z80 based computer that runs CP/M. The rest of my collection of toys are all CP/M systems either S100 or SBC based. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 16:40:48 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:40:48 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161CF2D.6040003@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161CF2D.6040003@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 03:55 PM, MG wrote: >> For those that say the mainframe (specifically IBM 360/370/390/z-series >> architecture) is dead, I would say not. > > For the record, /I/ didn't say it was dead; I was mostly quoting > others and also referenced an article. For the record, you have been spouting off for two days about how dead the mainframe is. You've been doing a lot more than just quoting an article written by a journalist who knows even less about this stuff than you do. YOU have been railing on and on, including your dreaded ad hominem attacks, as if it's your personal mission in life to CAUSE the mainframe industry to die. You started this pointless drivel by mentioning (not even quoting, that I recall, just MENTIONING, but I could be wrong about that) an article published in a good but notoriously "oooh shiny" publication. An article, I might add, that was very poorly-researched. > I've mostly observed that it's, although perhaps not dead (yet?), > /rather invisible/ nowadays. I'm not sure what is worse. IBM doesn't mind. Their customers don't mind. Why do YOU mind? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 16:41:43 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:41:43 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161E817.90601@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 04:11 PM, MG wrote: >> There is further irony in any resistance to the use of mainframes, >> because everyone in IT is talking about virtualisation and utility >> computing (see Introducing Utility Computing, Atos Origin, October >> 2006). But both concepts have been around in the mainframe world for >> 30 years or more. By providing virtualisation, VMware is doing for >> Intel platforms what VM/370 did onmainframes in the 1970?s. >> Mainframe is a utility service, and has almostalways been so. Many >> advocates of utility services are actually ?reinventingthe mainframe? >> in many aspects of what they seek to achieve. > > So, why is IBM allowing this to happen? Why aren't they there to > give VMware and others hell, perhaps even supply a bit more economical > solution for the /little people/? Why does IBM assume that people > will have the telepathic ability to learn about IBM and its products? > > For a supposedly successful platform, with no problems at all (which, > by the way, that earlier Inquirer article of late 2012 doesn't seem > to support), it sure seems relegated to obscurity and extreme niches > at best. Obscurity from YOUR "ooh, shiny!" perspective? Your bank transactions won't be processed on iPads anytime soon. > For a supposedly successful platform, why isn't IBM interested in > making it even more successful and getting more people to use and > perhaps switch to it? Why is IBM building "x" (and "i" and "p" for > that matter), why not /just/ "z"? Why do you think you know more about the mainframe business than IBM? > 100% utilization, thus with no headroom whatsoever; that's a good > idea in general...? (Regardless of whether a specific platform > would subdue or become less stable, or whatever.) It actually IS a good idea for the types of workloads mainframes process. There typically aren't "load spikes" on mainframes as we see in, say, web servers. ATMs don't get slashdotted. There is a "batch window", transactions are processed during that time, they know how many there are, they know how long it takes to process them, and having the machine sit there underutilized during that time is a waste of very expensive CPU cycles. If you knew a DAMN THING about what you're spouting off about, you'd already know this. But you don't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 16:42:41 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:42:41 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161D00D.5020701@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <1A9DF49B-1AF9-418E-AA58-0D8C055CDBDF@shiresoft.com> <5161D00D.5020701@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161E851.1070307@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 03:59 PM, MG wrote: >> As has been said by others, mainframes are used byorganizations >> that care about data availability and uptime. BTW zSeries, the z >> stands for "zero downtime". > > So what? That's just marketing. "NonStop" boils down to the same > and would proclaim the same (or better, depending who you're dealing > with) degree of resilience. "Uptime" is not marketing. Uptime is uptime. But I guess you didn't know that, either. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 16:44:08 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:44:08 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161CBE2.1040605@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161CBE2.1040605@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161E8A8.2000403@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 03:41 PM, MG wrote: > On 7-apr-2013 18:25, Dave McGuire wrote: >> He wasn't being sarcastic or facetious, he was being an ass. >> A clueless one at that. > > I'm probably waiting for the true gospel of IBM, like you did. In > the meantime, please excuse me oh wise one. If I were you, I'd take any bits of information I could get. Maybe you'll learn something. Maybe. >> "Retro" would be writing said emailson a Teletype. > > No, that would be dysfunctional I believe. Actually, it'd work just fine. But you probably didn't know THAT either. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 16:45:57 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:45:57 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> <516191AD.7060306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5161E915.9050307@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 04:00 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> > > A good idea. I have better things to do with my life. Agreed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 16:48:29 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:48:29 -0400 Subject: feeding trolls, was Re: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5161E9AD.3000201@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 05:00 PM, MikeS wrote: >> I WILL try to stop "feeding the troll". > > Try a little harder! You're the one participant common to almost every one of > these ridiculous and absolutely pointless kids-in-a-sandbox pissing contests... > > Seriously, have you thought about how much time you spend feeding the trolls > and how much better you could spend that time (not to mention the time the > rest of us waste wading through this dreck)? I have, and I don't like it one bit. I am a busy guy, I don't have time to waste with this crap. But stupid people bother me, and stupid people who THINK they know something, and get all militant about it, REALLY rub me the wrong way. I will try harder. I should just black-hole email addresses at the first sign of stupidity. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 7 16:56:56 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:56:56 +0100 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: <01b001ce33b8$608f0db0$21ad2910$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01be01ce33da$d3f578d0$7be06a70$@ntlworld.com> I remember Pete Lomas quite well, he taught me an interesting course on computer-aided computer design. However, I don?t recall him being on the Dataflow project, at least not when I was on the project anyway. As for my collection's links to the North West, a fair proportion of my machines were used by companies with a strong North West presence, but I don't have any real proof, or provenance, or information about how they were used. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Sent: 07 April 2013 19:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re[4]: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Rob Jarratt" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: 07/04/2013 18:50:20 > Subject: RE: Re[2]: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > >Not sure I am doing it right, my searches come up empty. I entered > >"Computer Collection" in Collection Name, and "Computer" under Subject. > > > Sorry, don't touch the "collections" box, just put "computer" into the "Object > Summary" box. It should then become obvious as to why you leave > collections blank... > >By the way I don't have anything that is North West England specific > >unfortunately, except perhaps some artefacts from the Manchester > >University Dataflow project. > > The DataFlow project probably fits with the collections policy. Oddly Pete > Lomas of Norcott Technologies who designed the Raspberry PI Hardware > worked on the Dataflow project... > > >The rest is DEC stuff, and a Teletype(!). I doubt MOSI would be > >interested in most of this. > > If it has Northwest connections then it may be of interest. So I know GEC > Althsom who designed the Metrolink trams were a big DEC house, as were > BNFL , so kit with connections to these may be of interest... > > > >Regards > > > >Rob > > > Dave > G4UGM > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > >> Sent: 07 April 2013 17:40 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re[2]: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > >> > >> > >> ------ Original Message ------ > >> From: "Al Kossow" > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Sent: 07/04/2013 00:40:26 > >> Subject: Re: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > >> >On 4/6/13 3:29 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > >> >>Folks may be able to help know what museums are close by. > >> >> > >> > > >> >Museums are not landfills. > >> > > >> >Think about the fact that the longer the common stuff is around the > >> >more likely it will be that an artifact will already have been > >>acquired > >> >for a collection. > >> > > >> >It is better to be thinking about finding other collectors than > >>hoping > >> >a museum is going to want your stuff at some time in the indefinite > >> >future. > >> > > >> >If you really do have something rare enough a collecting > >>institution > >> >would be interested in it, work out the details ahead of time. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Whilst I am not acting on behalf of MOSI. Manchester, I am pretty > >>sure from > >> conversations I have had with Curatorial staff that they have very > >>specific > >> collection goals. That is any exhibit should help tell the story of > >>computing > >> either North West England, either as part of another industry, or as > >>an > >> Industry in its own right. Display space and storage space is as > >>much a > >> problem for them as for most home collectors (they also have static > >>steam > >> engines, steam locomotives and aeroplanes). So Rob if you have > >>anything > >> which might fulfils those goals let me know and I'll give you a > >>contact. > >> > >> I am personally very sad that they do have equipment which isn't on > >>show > >> but which has vanished from Computing "in the wild", and which would > >>tell > >> a story about computing in the northwest UK, so go here and enter > >> "Computer":- > >> > >> > >>http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/search.php?type=Obj > ec > >> t > >> > >> in the subject search, and not whats in storage.... > > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 15:13:23 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:13:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox 820-II FDC (was Re: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC In-Reply-To: <002501ce32d4$478b4c50$d6a1e4f0$@lazzerini@email.it> from "Enrico Lazzerini" at Apr 6, 13 04:37:33 pm Message-ID: > U1 (74S288) and U2 (74S174) together constitute a "finite state machine" (so > they told to me cause I'm not so expert) whose purpose is to provide a read A finite state machine (sometiems shortend to a 'state machine') is a way of designing and building sequential logic circuits -- that is circuits where the outputs(s) depend not only on the inputs now, but also on previous sets of inputs. The basic idea is tha tthe circuit stores internally a 'state', normally as an n-bit binary number in n D-tyoe flip-flopes (that's the 74LS174 in your circuit, a hex D-type flip-flop). All flip-flops are clocked at the same time to change to a new state, Andthen there is a block of combinatorial logic (a cricuit where the outputs depend only o nthe inouts now, not what they were) which has as inputs the external inptus ot the state machine and the outputs of the D type flip-flops and which produces the inputs to the D-type flip-flops to give the new state. Sievn a ROM is a gnneral combinatorial circuit, you can make a stte machine from a ROM and a set of D-type flip-flops, aas here. > Who wrote that article decided to build itself a FDC controller card for his > xerox 820-II extracting a block of its schematic from a Kaypro-II's > schematic really making very few changes and using a FDC WD1793 + WD9216 for > external separator data. > Due to its small number of components, and having already a WD1797 I'd just > need of a WD9216 (i hope to find it on the Internet yet) and wiring it would > be maybe more simple. The 9216 was a very common data separator about 25 eyars ago. It was used on a lot of PC/XT cloen FDC cards (not on the original IBM one though) and in other machines too. I am pretty sure it was made by several manufacturers. > Last suggestion (always from the so expert Chuck that I thanks so much) > would be to use a WD2797 instead of WD1797, but I'm not a designer and while > i can understand something of all those things it's very hard for me to > change schematics or adjust components. The 2979 is essential a 1797 with an intenral data separator. It works well, but IIRC there are 3 analogue adjustments associated with it (a couple of puse widths and the free-running frequency of a VCO). It's not hard to set these up, but you do need a 'socpe or logic anlyser to do it. The 9216 data separator IIRC needs no external adjustments. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 15:24:17 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:24:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <013c01ce3313$55063b30$ff12b190$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 6, 13 11:08:53 pm Message-ID: > > Sorry to hear about your father. I remember you saying he was not well a > while ago. Alas yes. He had been bedridden for almsot a year and had been in and out of hospital for most of that time (most in hospital). I wanted nothing more than for him to get up, come home, and enjoy his intereests again, but alas that wasn't to be. > > Funnily enough, although my collection is far more modest, I have been > thinking about this a little bit too just lately as I need to make a will. I > think my preference would be a serious collector interested in keeping the > machines running (or getting them to run where I have failed), but I am Yes. I actualyl know a serious collector who shares enough of my interests (not just classic computers) to be able to sort out all my stuff and know what is worth keeping, what he would want ot keep himself, and so on. My problem is that said colelctor is abotu the same age as I am. So it's not at all certain that I will pass away first (and that's not to mention the posibiltiy of accidents). So I want a 'backup' -- somebody or some body that will be around in 30 years tiem and who would take over my stuff, sort it out, keep and restore some fo it and pass on the rest to others who are interested. It appesrs, though, that such orgnaisations do not exist. > interested in any suggestions. My fear with museums is that they would just > go into storage and never be seen or appreciated again. My particular THat is _one_ of my dislikes of museums too. > dilemma is that I would like at least something to remain in the family, but I have no family... > I don't know whether I should encourage my children to sell or give away the > rest since a fair proportion of what I have was given to me, although I have > bought some items. One thing is for sure, I am going to stipulate that > nothing should be just thrown away. I am quite happy t o give the lot unconditionally to a clueful person or organisation. On the grounds that hey will realise that a dozen BBC micros is excessive amd that soem can be gvien away (athought the one with SCSIFS is perhaps a bit rarer...), but that classic PERQs are not that common and PERQ 2T4s are, well,.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 16:00:10 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:00:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: from "Colin Eby" at Apr 7, 13 00:31:44 am Message-ID: > > Tony, > > I'm sorry for your loss as well. Thank you. > > It's interesting to hear people's thoughts on this subject. I have > something like 60 computers of varying kinds. Most of them aren't rare > enough to be museum pieces. Quite a few of them are US only models > which I didn't sell on before moving to the UK. My deal with myself > was to stop collecting (hoarding) and do work with a museum. I think I > do more retro-computing now than I ever did as a collector alone, and on > much more interesting systems. I'd love to think I could just dump them That would not work for me. One tirivial problem is tha there isn't a museum near enoguh for me to get to that would welcome an outsider volunterring to work o ntehir machines. The more major problem is that I did spend soem time at Blethcley Park. I gave up for various reasons, mostly due to the weay the place was run _then_ (It has probably improved now). But wjhen I was workign there I would come home and do _more interesting_ stuff at home that I ever did at the museum. There is also the psychologicval aspect for me. I will happily spend several months producing docuemtnation on an old machine and then repairing it if it is mine. I will not do it for somebody else. And thahe fact that my repair methods seem totally at odds with everyone elese (but they work!),. so I don't really 'fiot in; with other repairers. I;'ve seen the hpoto so the museum at Bletchley Park on the web, and quyite honmestly I reckon I;'ve got more interesting ,machines, more complete machines amd plain more fun machiens than that colleciton. > all on the museum if I fell under a bus, but that's not fair on them. My view is that in many cases the museum policy on acquisitions is fundalmentally broken in that they can't give away or sell stuff they've been given to just anybody,. Thinking of my colelciton I am sure no museum is goign to want a load of BBC micros, or IBM5150s, or. But they might want the PERQs, the P800s, the HP desktop calcualtors, the I2S imaage process/dispal systems, the E&S PS/390, etc, The policy should be there that thay can take the lot and then sell on, or give way, that which they don't want. In case you're wondering about the time it woudl take to sort this out, rememebr I am likely to be owning a house when I pass away. That would ahve to be sold to payu the inherritance tax, but there would be anough money left over to cover the time and trouble it woudl take to move my machines. > Who really needs a NTSC Atari 600XL with a 110 power supply in England? > I might as well bin it for all the use it would be to anyone, or for the > cost of posting it back to the states. And yet, that's the last thing I > want to do. But at the same time, even as I sit here I know the > collection is an albatross weighing on me. I don't even use them > anymore. All my retro-computing energy goes into museum work. None of m! I use my classics all the iime -- literally. I am using oen right now. > y family or work colleagues are interested? so what to do. I don't ahve any family, I don't have any work colleagues. I have several freinds who do sahre my interests though. But the problem is thaty might not outlive me. > Here my solution for what its worth -- eBay the lot, starting now. > many of them at a loss, back to the US. Alternatively, maybe I'll do a That WOULD NOT work for me. Without my clasisc computers, cameras, tools, books, etc I would have _nothing_ to do in my spare time. Absolutely nothing. And I am not going to live like that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 15:38:55 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:38:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: RL drive select plugs. What is magic about 3? In-Reply-To: <1365286355.33876.YahooMailClassic@web120505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Apr 6, 13 03:12:35 pm Message-ID: > > I've been doing a bit with an 11/23+ setup and a few RL drives, and > I've run into something odd. I currently have select plugs 0, 1 and 3. > If I plug in two drives, 0 and 1, I can boot from either one, and once > in RT11, I can access the other one. Easy. If I connect two drives, 0 > and 3, however - I can only use drive 0. All accesses to drive 3 result > in an error. Can't boot from it, can't access it from RT11. Thinking > that maybe the plugs had to be in order, I connected only one drive, > drive 1, and was able to boot it and use it just fine. Then, swapping > the 3 plug into that single drive, can't boot from it. > > And I've shuffled this plug around into a couple of drives, and none > of them work with it. There's no damage to the plug itself, and all the > drives work otherwise. Unfortunately, I don't have enough cables to > connect more than two drives at once. I also don't have a drive 2 plug > to try. There is nothing 'odd' abotu the '3' select plug. The plugs have 2 taps, one on each side, the edges of these tabs can either be plain or cut into. THey oeprate swtich contacts in the ready lamp housing. One edge is never cut, it indicates there's a plug in place. 2 other edges give the drive number ina binary code (in fact, the other 3 edges can be used, but the RL drive only wires up 2 of the contacts. RK06s and RK07s use the same delect lplugs and can be numbered from 0 to 7) WWaht happens if you put the '1' plug in the drive and try to access it as drive 3? if that works, it suggests the controler is not outputting the most signifciant select line. I cna't remembr if the numbero f drives on a cotnrller has to be set when SYSGENing RT11. If it does, it's posible your system is set u pfor 2 drives only. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 16:06:51 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:06:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Apr 6, 13 04:40:26 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/6/13 3:29 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > > Folks may be able to help know what museums are close by. > > > > Museums are not landfills. True enough, and I don't expect them to be. On the other hand perhaps they should be prepared to sell on the more ocmmon items from a donated colelction in order to keep the rare ones(and, indeed, to get the money form the deceased owner's estate). > It is better to be thinking about finding other collectors than > hoping a museum is going to want your stuff at some time in the > indefinite future. > > If you really do have something rare enough a collecting institution > would be interested in it, work out the details ahead of time. I don;t know how the law waorks in other countries, but in the UK if you mention a specific object iin a will, then it's that object, and that object only that is passed on. Not a similar object. So if I said that I leave my Philips P850 to $museum and then by the time I die I have traded the P850 for a P855, tyhe msueum gets nothing and the P855 does nto get preserved. Quite honestly I can;'t update my will every time I change the contents of my colelciton. Findign a collector is the obvious solution, and indeed I ahve done that. But (again, this is the UK,m other countriess mmay be differnet), if said colelctor dies before me ten the will ahs no meaning. Of course if he dies years before me and I am still of sound mind I can make a new will. If not, then again the stuff is not presereved. That is what I want to avoid. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 15:29:48 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:29:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <9873B1DB-5A1C-44FC-B6CD-DC5EE0C50A43@shiresoft.com> from "Guy Sotomayor" at Apr 6, 13 03:10:10 pm Message-ID: > > What I have done for my will was to designate someone who will responsibly > "dispose" of my collection. Here in the 'states another way to handle this is This depends on being reasoanbly certain that said person will outlive you. If I could find such a person with enough knowledge of classic computers, etc to be able to sensibly handle my collection then I would be happy to leave it to them.But alas all my friends -- all the people I know with any interest in such stuff -- are about the same age as I am so they could well pass away before me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 15:40:18 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:40:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> from "Sam O'nella" at Apr 6, 13 10:29:56 pm Message-ID: > > What area are you located again? Folks may be able to help know what > museums are close by. Near London, England. I will probably have ot move soon (to pay the inherritance tax on my father's estate), but am goign to try to remain i nthe London area. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 15:45:08 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:45:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at Apr 6, 13 05:52:20 pm Message-ID: Did you really have to quote over 80 lines of text to add one word? ANd then top-post it? > > cameras? Yes, you know. Light-tight boxes containing a suitable substrate (often cellulose acetate, but maybe glass) coated with a sliver halide emulsion. There's a lense system o nthe frotn of said box.... More seriously, I have a number of oolder cameras. Some quite good quality, others less so. Some interesting form the mechnical design, agian otehrs less so. Nothign _spectacualrly rare or valualbe, but certain;y soem fun items. -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 17:13:49 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:13:49 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=5b2=5d=3a=20Tech=20is=20the=20biggest=20problem=20facing=20archiving=20=e2=80=a2=20The=20Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "MG" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 07/04/2013 21:11:40 Subject: Re: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register >On 7-apr-2013 18:22, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>There is further irony in any resistance to the use of mainframes, >>because everyone in IT is talking about virtualisation and utility >>computing (see Introducing Utility Computing, Atos Origin, October >>2006). But both concepts have been around in the mainframe world for >>30 years or more. By providing virtualisation, VMware is doing for >>Intel platforms what VM/370 did onmainframes in the 1970?s. >>Mainframe is a utility service, and has almostalways been so. Many >>advocates of utility services are actually ?reinventingthe mainframe? >>in many aspects of what they seek to achieve. > >So, why is IBM allowing this to happen? Why aren't they there to >give VMware and others hell, perhaps even supply a bit more economical >solution for the /little people/? Why does IBM assume that people >will have the telepathic ability to learn about IBM and its products? IBM sell and support VMWare on their Intel and AMD servers. Where I work we have something like 40 to 50 IBM xSeries Intel servers running VMware. The first line support on these on VMWare is provided by IBM. IBM provide customized versions of VMware that includes support for IBM Hardware. IBM provide an internal USB slot and their servers can be ordered with this pre-loaded with a USB memory stick with the custom VMWare pre-loaded. > >For a supposedly successful platform, with no problems at all (which, >by the way, that earlier Inquirer article of late 2012 doesn't seem >to support), it sure seems relegated to obscurity and extreme niches >at best. > >For a supposedly successful platform, why isn't IBM interested in >making it even more successful and getting more people to use and >perhaps switch to it? Why is IBM building "x" (and "i" and "p" for >that matter), why not /just/ "z"? > > Because of the "suits". By keeping zSeries as a niche product IBM can charge premium prices and keep the profit margins high. When we discarded our Mainframe, a small Multiprise box IBM showed no interest in selling us an upgrade. They are quite happy to keep selling us xSeries servers though. By selling xSeries and iSeries boxes "relatively" cheaply they can sell zSeries as a high reliability, high margin box. I personally think this is what allows zSeries to survive. In my opinion the biggest mistake DEC made was to try and take the Alpha chip down market. It spoilt the brand image. >>Another interesting statistic is average capacity utilization: >>Wintel-based servers: 8-15% >>Unix/RISC: 28-45% >>Mainframes: 65-75% > >Where did you get these figures from? > > They match with the survey we did before we went to VMWare. A VM to Real ration of 10 to 1 is what folks typically achieve when they virtualize a Windows environment. In general you don't need lots of CPU power, you need fast disks and channels. That's why SSD disks, ZFS and multi-teir SANs are one key area of an evolving market place... >>It's also noted that mainframes (zSeries) can and do run at 100% >>utilization for long periods quite happily. Try that with a non- >>mainframe! > >100% utilization, thus with no headroom whatsoever; that's a good >idea in general...? (Regardless of whether a specific platform >would subdue or become less stable, or whatever.) > IBM typically sell you a box with more CPUs in that you need, and charge by CPU power so it makes sense to run those that are enabled pretty near flat out. If you need a boost then they sell you a code to allow you to enable more CPU speed. From:- http://public.dhe.ibm.com/common/ssi/ecm/en/zsd03011usen/ZSD03011USEN.PDF "IBM Capacity Upgrade on Demand (CUoD) provides a permanent increase in processing capacity that can be initiated by the customer. IBM On/Off Capacity on Demand (On/Off CoD) provides temporary capacity needed for short-term spikes in capacity or for testing new applications. Capacity Backup Upgrade (CBU) can help provide reserved emergency backup capacity for multiple processor configurations" > - MG Dave G4UGM From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Apr 7 17:20:48 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 18:20:48 -0400 Subject: Core vs MOS RAM latencies - Re: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> On 07/04/13 5:33 PM, allison wrote: > >>> The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day that was >>> as costly as the base machine if not more. >> I understand that memory was at a premium back then. >> Out of interest, how common was core memory (H223 and similar) in QBUS >> systems? >> Is BBU supported for the MOS memory options? > The older LSI11 systems had it if there was a call for non volatile > memory, the cost was high. > I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle > time than Ram of > the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on the day was under > 1us and dropping. > That's odd, I seem to recall my handbooks claiming lower latencies for (Unibus?) core than the MOS products in the same range, but don't have the right handbook to, uh, hand. Can you verify those latencies from your handbook? --Toby From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 17:44:05 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 00:44:05 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161CF2D.6040003@xs4all.nl> <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5161F6B5.50505@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 23:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > For the record, you have been spouting off for two days about how > dead the mainframe is. You've been doing a lot more than just quoting > an article written by a journalist who knows even less about this stuff > than you do. Most of the time I'm not even asserting things, just stating my own personal observations, predictions and cross-referencing such articles. You may not like it, but you haven't refuted anything of it either. That alone tells me a lot. > YOU have been railing on and on, including your dreaded ad hominem > attacks Show me one, let alone one that preceded any other. > as if it's your personal mission in life to CAUSE the mainframe > industryto die. You're kidding... right? (If I could remotely cause that, on my own, then what does that tell you about that industry?) > You started this pointless drivel by mentioning (not even quoting, > that I recall, just MENTIONING, but I could be wrong about that) an > article published in a good but notoriously "oooh shiny" publication. You haven't refuted a single thing. Not having quoted? (Maybe I too easily assumed that you could read it? Excuse me for that.) > An article, I might add, that was very poorly-researched. Again, what exactly is poorly-researched about it? > IBM doesn't mind. Their customers don't mind. Why do YOU > mind? Actual customers, or invisible ones, like their mainframes and quasi-mainframes are increasingly becoming? If I mind it? No, IBM can die if it wants to. I'm just trying to diffuse and refute mind-boggling IBM propaganda, that I've been hearing for ages. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 17:49:30 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 00:49:30 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161E817.90601@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> <5161E817.90601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5161F7FA.8080305@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 23:41, Dave McGuire wrote: > Obscurity from YOUR "ooh, shiny!" perspective? Your bank > transactions won't be processed on iPads anytime soon. Where did those quotations come from? (Schizophrenic, a bit?) > Why do you think you know more about the mainframe business than > IBM? Pardon me? > It actually IS a good idea for the types of workloads mainframes > process. Then what exactly is this "100%"? > There typically aren't "load spikes" on mainframes as we see in, say, > web servers.ATMs don't get slashdotted. There is a "batch window", > transactions are processed during that time, they know how many there > are, they know how long it takes to process them, and having the machine > sit there underutilized during that time is a waste of very expensive > CPU cycles. But if it's no problem, why not? Also, in an article I read about a video I referenced earlier (about the "GAMEframe" thing of Hoplon in Brazil), they said they had to off-load to "Cell" blades because else they'd stress their "z" too much and it'd become too expensive(!)... So, it sounds a /bit/ murky to me. > If you knew a DAMN THING about what you're spouting off about, > you'd already know this. I hope I didn't raise your blood pressure too much, old timer. It'd be a shame if you got an heart attack over something you're totally not emotional about and are willing to rationally discuss... > But you don't. That breaks my heart. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 17:50:49 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 00:50:49 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161E915.9050307@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> <516191AD.7060306@bitsavers.org> <5161E915.9050307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5161F849.7000305@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 23:45, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/07/2013 04:00 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >> >> A good idea. I have better things to do with my life. > > Agreed. From the same era as IBM's heyday: "Duck and Cover"! - MG From craig at solomonson.net Sun Apr 7 17:53:01 2013 From: craig at solomonson.net (Craig Solomonson) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 17:53:01 -0500 Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> Message-ID: <1016adaa79a87519ef93eff4cdf56511.squirrel@www.solomonson.net> > I'm highjacking this thread. I'm debating starting a museum locally, as we > don't have anything like this in the Indianapolis area. > > For those who have started such endeavors, what are your stories in > getting the ball rolling? I was part of a small group that tried to start a computer museum in the Minneapolis area in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Unfortunately, there were few computer museums to relate to at the time and selling the vision was not always easy. Our break through came when we met with the governor, Rudy Perpich, who had worked for Control Data Corp. He liked the idea and arranged a meeting with Bill Norris of CDC. He also liked the idea and gave his support for the idea along with people and access to the Control Data warehouse containing some early systems for starters if the museum found a home. We approached a couple local museums with the idea of joining with them. Both liked it so much that a small political battle resulted. In the mean time, DEC announced the opening of the Boston Computer Museum and support for opening another museum dwindled. It was a great experience and in that 5 year period, I even collected a few systems with hopes of displaying them. Burlington Northern gave us a Univac III system and Pillsbury gave us a GE timesharing system that was originally at Dartmouth. I also had an operational Bendix G-15 in my classroom. Wished I still had some of these today! I do have about 100 micros yet and many boxes of miscellaneous items that I have started to sort through now that I am retired. I have done a YouTube video with an overview of some interesting items that I collected, if you want to take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDeKUrOpFiU You might want to consider an area science museum and approach them with the idea of having a display area. I wish you luck with your efforts! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 7 17:59:04 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 15:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161CF2D.6040003@xs4all.nl> <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130407155533.R56745@shell.lmi.net> > > I've mostly observed that it's, although perhaps not dead (yet?), > > /rather invisible/ nowadays. I'm not sure what is worse. > IBM doesn't mind. Their customers don't mind. Why do YOU mind? If I had a niche market of five machines, and made a billion dollars on each, I wouldn't be desperate for expansion. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 7 18:13:00 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 16:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, MG wrote: > On 7-apr-2013 8:34, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 04/06/2013 08:07 PM, geneb wrote: >>>>> As far as I'm aware, it's not exactly 'allowed' to run (e.g.) "z" >>>>> 'at home', not even for non-commercial/private reasons and end- >>>>> uses/purposes. >>>> >>>> Wrong again. >>>> >>>> One day I will learn to avoid feeding the trolls. One day. >>>> >>> But today is not that day! Muahahahahahahahahha! >>> >>> *ahem* >> >> And you're absolutely RIGHT. ;) > > > Glad your reinforcements arrived, maybe he can provide you > tactical ad hominem simulated air support from that F-15C > cockpit? > Dave's a big boy, he doesn't need my help. You'll have to work a LOT harder if you want me to join this little spat. My little box of fucks is completly empty and it'll take a lot more than the likes of you to fill it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Apr 7 19:43:59 2013 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 20:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Subject: Re: Mulling a museum Message-ID: Will Donzelli is on target with this on Collections Policy... and I will add a few more things to consider also. 1. If you are not a business person find some to collaborate with. Always good to have grant writer as a fried too! Unless you have a funding organization or group you are going to have to support it. I have seem to may people open things with about a business plan or ability to fund it and think that money will just appear. Remember most people on the street probably could care less about what you are displaying and certainly will not throw any money your way. Develop strategic alliances with educational facilities and Hi Tech Businesses in your area. ========================== 2. Hey! You are going to get duplicate material... you can wither take up valuable display space to stash dupes and pay or off site storage... but..... the BEST! is finding a beta site to stash it but... it is on display there.. If it is a cool item like an extra Altair or PDP-8 have a loan agreement.... especially when dealing with schools ... If you give something to a college and the whims of floor space utilization rear their head... the can just send it to state surplus or in some cases I have heard of... throw it away! So to reiterate, Find cool other places to place things on display which can also act as a funnel to lead people to visit you mother load ... and maintain control of material in off site displays ================= 3. From the standpoint of disaster having your collection in diverse physical locations is a consideration. If you have a chance to pick a spot in the nation somewhere ... do a study of the area.. Take time analyze the possibly of earthquakes, flood, fire, theft, tornados, hurricanes etc... get maps study the geography... Think of things like.... if I build a museum in a nice mountain forested area and there is a raging forest fire... what happens? Think of things like ... is this area in a flood plain and the 100 year flood... will it get me? many times these 100 year floods happen sooner than 100 years! Think of things like.... Will the earthquakes throw the artifacts off the shelves? ====================================== I could go on forever... but there are a couple things to consider. Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC Message: 10 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 17:14:00 -0400 From: William Donzelli To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Mulling a museum Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > I'm highjacking this thread. I'm debating starting a museum locally, as we don't have anything like this in the Indianapolis area. > > For those who have started such endeavors, what are your stories in getting the ball rolling? Plan. Plan. Plan some more. Plan for the distant future. Part of this planning involves a Collections Policy. This is a document that defines the collection - what is to be included, and what is to be turned away. It has been said by many folks over the years that artifacts (hardware) are the easiest things to find, and in time, will completely take over any and all space a museum has. A nice, focused Collection Policy THAT IS ADHERED TO will keep things under control, and keep quality high. Yes, quality is better than quantity. I have been part of a decent number of independent little museums over the years (computer and otherwise, but all being tech related), and nearly all of them have let their collections bloat out of control, due to the lack of a Collections Policy. Trust me - you do not want to get in this situation. Think of all the good stuff later on that has to be passed up because there is no room. Think of the infighting and politics when you need to get rid of things. Think of moving the collection with all the excess when you lose your space. Think of what visitors are looking at. -- Will From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 7 19:58:10 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 20:58:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> There is further irony [...] because everyone in IT is talking about >> virtualisation and [...]. But both concepts have been around in the >> mainframe world for 30 years or more. [...] Indeed. >> By providing virtualisation, VMware is doing for Intel platforms >> what VM/370 did onmainframes in the 1970?s. Is it? How easy is it to run VM-in-VM with VMware? (That's a serious question; I have never even looked at it myself. Work has never required it, and, like all closed-source software, it's simply not under consideration for my home use. Someday I want to learn enough of the x86 hypervisor hardware facilities to build a hypervisor of my own, but so far opportunity and inclination have not coincided for that.) >> Mainframe is a utility service, and has almostalways been so. Many >> advocates of utility services are actually ?reinventingthe >> mainframe? in many aspects of what they seek to achieve. > So, why is IBM allowing this to happen? Allowing? Why would they want to stop it? What's the business case for the massive educational effort that would be required? > Why aren't they there to give VMware and others hell, perhaps even > supply a bit more economical solution for the /little people/? Why should they? Not everyone is interested in going after every possible market. IBM has, apparently, decided that their shareholders are best served by ignoring tiny-to-small sites, instead going after larger sites more or less excusively. And, for suitable values of "best served", I'm not sure they're wrong. > Why does IBM assume that people will have the telepathic ability to > learn about IBM and its products? What "people"? Buyers for large corporations (and other entities of similar size, such as governments) _do_ know about IBM; most of them have, and the rest can get hold of, a sales rep with little-to-no trouble. Said sales rep isn't going to be talking to individuals or small businesses, no, but then we're back to IBM having no interest in selling to them. Given the degree of technical cluelessness I've heard of (and occasionally observed) in the individual and small-to-medium business markets, I'm not at all sure they're wrong to do so; the handholding necessary to support such customers may very well leech away too much of their value to the company to be worth bothering with. (Not all such customers ar elike that, but it's hard to tell in advance which ones are clued.) > For a supposedly successful platform, why isn't IBM interested in > making it even more successful and getting more people to use and > perhaps switch to it? I don't know. See above for some (only partially founded) speculation on the question. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jthecman at netscape.net Sun Apr 7 20:45:26 2013 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> Message-ID: <8D00211E0B25C86-828-252B4@webmail-m263.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Katz To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Sun, Apr 7, 2013 2:31 am Subject: Mulling a museum On Apr 6, 2013, at 7:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Museums are not landfills. I'm highjacking this thread. I'm debating starting a museum locally, as we don't have anything like this in the Indianapolis area. For those who have started such endeavors, what are your stories in getting the ball rolling? FYI 1. You need lots of money 2. You need a great board to help make it all work 3. You need a SUPER grant writer 4. Again you need lots of money 5. If you plan on running it yourself get some trainng or take some museum classes at a school I started one back 2003 and still have not got any funding to fully support it. JK From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 7 20:49:25 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201304080149.VAA08484@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I'm sorry for your loss as well. > Thank you. Me too. I have maybe a vague idea what it's like, from losing my own parents, which was, to put it mildly, Not Fun At All. > My view is that in many cases the museum policy on acquisitions is > fundalmentally broken in that they can't give away or sell stuff > they've been given to just anybody,. I agree that this is seriously broken. But, as for the pragmatic matter of what to put in your will, maybe you could, rather than willing your collection to a museum, specify that the museum is to get whatever subset they want, with the rest to be disposed of otherwise? (Of course, this does mean choosing a value of "otherwise". I suggest it just as a workaround for such broken museum policies.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 7 20:58:26 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <8D00211E0B25C86-828-252B4@webmail-m263.sysops.aol.com> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> <8D00211E0B25C86-828-252B4@webmail-m263.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <201304080158.VAA08569@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Museums are not landfills. ...though some seem to be depressingly similar in some respects. :( > I'm highjacking this thread. I'm debating starting a museum locally, > as we don't have anything like this in the Indianapolis area. I have had people tell me I should start a museum, usually after they've done a walkthrough through my place and seen the computers I have on hand. I saw one message in this thread say there's a difference between a museum and an exhibition of a personal collection, so, in addition to JK's questions, I'd also be interested to know what that difference is; it's possible the latter is closer to what those people have meant. I'd also be interested in any advice for someone contemplating either. I don't know whether either one is something I want to do, but I'd like to at least learn enough to figure out whether they are. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 7 21:12:53 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 19:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1365387173.52766.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ?Well I finally had a chance to get all the pieces together and have a detailed look. Looks like it is a KA780 no upgrade. Only 1 Mb of memory. One RH780. Two DW780 for the two BA11 box's. One BA11 is full of terminal boards and a DUP11. The other just has a lone UDA50. Looks like the only thing missing is the Massbus cable to connect the CPU with the TU78. ? Started to take things apart and clean. Amazing what WD40 and fine steel wool will do to the chassis. It was finally a sunny day today so I got a chance to get a few of my VT100 keyboards and monitor cases out for a little de-yellowing. Only took a few hours in the midday sun to whiten them. ? I want to thank everybody for the positive comments and help. Big shoutout to Ian from the living computer museum who restored their 780 and got it up online for his suggestions and Bob Supnik for his help in finding software. I'll be starting a blog to detail my progress. ? I have to share a humorous note about going to retrieve this system from a storage building in Massachusetts. I just left the Massachusetts Turnpike and was heading back to my home near Niagara Falls NY. While heading west on the NYS Thruway, I saw a mustard colored Volvo coming up in my mirror. He slowed and came along the side of my car waving his arms. I thought something had happened to my trailer. When I looked over, he was leaning over and giving me a very enthusiastic thumbs up sign. Someone actually knew what I had back there! Brian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 21:33:25 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:33:25 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <1365387173.52766.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1365387173.52766.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I have to share a humorous note about going to retrieve this system from a > storage > building in Massachusetts. I just left the Massachusetts Turnpike and was heading back > to my home > near Niagara Falls NY. While heading west on the NYS Thruway, I saw > a > mustard colored Volvo coming up in my mirror. He slowed and came along > the side > of my car waving his arms. I thought something had happened to > my trailer. When I > looked over, he was leaning over and giving me a very > enthusiastic thumbs up sign. I had a similar humorous thing happen hauling a Cyber 830. It was cocooned in clear plastic, but still the LARGE lettering on the cabinet was completely readable. At a gas statin stop, a busload of neo-hippies, probably fresh from a Phish show, thought it was the greatest thing they had ever seen. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 21:38:42 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:38:42 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving?= =?windows-1252?Q?_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > Is it? How easy is it to run VM-in-VM with VMware? (That's a serious > question; I have never even looked at it myself. Work has never > required it, and, like all closed-source software, it's simply not > under consideration for my home use. I d not know about VMware, but with z/VM, native on the IBM mainframes, it is fairly common to run three or four nested virtual machines while developing stuff. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 7 23:01:09 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 21:01:09 -0700 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51624105.1060700@sydex.com> On 04/07/2013 11:24 AM, craig at solomonson.net wrote: > I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through > some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room > had a few posters hanging on the wall. IIRC, the Playboy Bunny was the most popular one that I saw. In those days, not suitable for display at work, but a lot of people had copies of the deck. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Mon Apr 8 00:30:35 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:30:35 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <516255FB.406@jwsss.com> On 4/7/2013 7:38 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I d not know about VMware, but with z/VM, native on the IBM > mainframes, it is fairly common to run three or four nested virtual > machines while developing stuff. There is an option for 64 bit systems + the vanderpool vm bit implemented that will allow hypervisors to run nested. I'll put a link to a vmware community posting later. Only thing to point out is that it takes not only the vm assist, but a 64 bit only option. I've not looked into it to quote intel bits, but I do have a couple of 64 bit vm assisted processors that don't support nesting, if you plan to do it study which one you need before wasting money on the wrong processor. When we developed on VM/SP5 we routinely ran everything 2nd level for all of our user work, but had configured all of our working systems to easily be dropped to the hardware and be run standalone. Also one of the guests we developed ran third level frequently on the development machines, but again we had the hardware to have everyone on dedicated 3380's so we could point at them and boot either the VM or the Ultimate system directly if need. the Vmware is usually used from what I've seen for configuring and testing vmware esxi system configurations on a single system before deployment. jim http://communities.vmware.com/docs/DOC-8970 From xmechanic at landcomp.net Mon Apr 8 00:43:50 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 23:43:50 -0600 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51625916.8090408@landcomp.net> On 4/7/13 12:24 PM, craig at solomonson.net wrote: > I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through > some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room > had a few posters hanging on the wall. As I recall, Snoopy was probably the > most popular subject along with "space stuff." I just had to piece these old > posters together and see what I had printed back in 1981. It turns out that > at least 2 of them were from the Princeton University Computer Center Clinic > and done by Samuel P. Harbison in 1973. The third one of the Golden Gate > Bridge is huge (8 ft. wide and 6.5 ft. tall) and no credits were given. Here > are some photos of them for those that are interested: > > > > Golden Gate Bridge (with a PAA airplane) - 96" x 78": > > http://www.solomonson.net/computers/GoldenGate.jpg > > > > One Giant Leap (man on the moon) - 40" x 33": > > http://www.solomonson.net/computers/GiantLeap.jpg > > > > The Moon - 59" x 55": > > http://www.solomonson.net/computers/Moon.jpg > > > > > > > Very cool stuff! Must have taken days, just to print those at the speeds of the average daisy wheel printer in that time period. :) (or teletype if that was the weapon of choice) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From xmechanic at landcomp.net Mon Apr 8 00:46:22 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 23:46:22 -0600 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <51624105.1060700@sydex.com> References: <51624105.1060700@sydex.com> Message-ID: <516259AE.7010804@landcomp.net> On 4/7/13 10:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/07/2013 11:24 AM, craig at solomonson.net wrote: >> I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through >> some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and >> room >> had a few posters hanging on the wall. > > IIRC, the Playboy Bunny was the most popular one that I saw. In those > days, not suitable for display at work, but a lot of people had copies > of the deck. > > --Chuck > > > > Heh heh! Some of the first computer porn available. :D -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From witchy69 at virginmedia.com Sun Apr 7 18:32:25 2013 From: witchy69 at virginmedia.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 00:32:25 +0100 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry to hear about your Dad mate, big hugs from the flatlands up north! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 02:39:57 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:39:57 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=5b3=5d=3a=20Tech=20is=20the=20biggest=20problem=20facing=20archiving=20=e2=80=a2=20The=20Register?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 08/04/2013 03:38:42 Subject: Re: Re: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register >> Is it? How easy is it to run VM-in-VM with VMware? (That's a serious >> question; I have never even looked at it myself. Work has never >> required it, and, like all closed-source software, it's simply not >> under consideration for my home use. > >I d not know about VMware, but with z/VM, native on the IBM >mainframes, it is fairly common to run three or four nested virtual >machines while developing stuff. > Whilst its trivial to run VM within VM on zVM, is this still common? I thought there was still a big hit in performance when you went more than two deep because that's how deep the microded virtualization assists (what used to be callde "SIE assists" on the original ESA boxes) went. So if you are running in LPAR mode (and as I understand things many modern boxes only run in LPAR mode) then you usually can only go two deep in zVM. However on VMWare you don't usually need more than one level. I have only ever used VMWare under VMWare on a training course. Microsofts virtualization "products" Virtual PC and Hyper-V both prohibit VMs under VMs. >-- >Will Dave G4UGM From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 02:47:17 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 00:47:17 -0700 Subject: Grid Compass I or II CCOS ROMs? Message-ID: <51627605.3020604@gmail.com> I know I've asked about this in the past, butI figured I'd try again: Anyone have any idea where to track down ROMs for the Grid Compass I or II (1101 / 1129)? I accidentally formatted my 1129's internal bubble memory tonight (while intending to format an external floppy) and now of course it won't boot. (Doesn't seem to want to try booting from the floppy drive either, unless there's a magical keysequence...) I'm looking for either CCOS or GRiD's version of MS-DOS, which I believe were both available as ROMs for this machine. I'm hoping that this machine will boot from internal ROM, and not just bubble memory (otherwise I've basically destroyed any chance of running this machine again...) I've had very little luck tracking down either software or documentation for this thing (found a few disk images on Dave Dunfield's site). TheRuGRiD Yahoo group specializes mostly in later GRiD machines and has basically no Compass information. Knowing if it's even possible to get this to boot from a floppy would be useful as well... Thanks as always, Josh From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 02:47:32 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:47:32 +0000 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <51625916.8090408@landcomp.net> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Dave Land" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 08/04/2013 06:43:50 Subject: Re: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's >On 4/7/13 12:24 PM, craig at solomonson.net wrote: >>I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting >>through >>some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and >>room >>had a few posters hanging on the wall. As I recall, Snoopy was >>probably the >>most popular subject along with "space stuff." I just had to piece >>these old >>posters together and see what I had printed back in 1981. It turns out >>that >>at least 2 of them were from the Princeton University Computer Center >>Clinic >>and done by Samuel P. Harbison in 1973. The third one of the Golden >>Gate >>Bridge is huge (8 ft. wide and 6.5 ft. tall) and no credits were >>given. Here >>are some photos of them for those that are interested: >> >> >> >>Golden Gate Bridge (with a PAA airplane) - 96" x 78": >> >>http://www.solomonson.net/computers/GoldenGate.jpg >> >> >> >>One Giant Leap (man on the moon) - 40" x 33": >> >>http://www.solomonson.net/computers/GiantLeap.jpg >> >> >> >>The Moon - 59" x 55": >> >> http://www.solomonson.net/computers/Moon.jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >Very cool stuff! Must have taken days, just to print those at the >speeds of the average daisy wheel printer in that time period. :) >(or teletype if that was the weapon of choice) The line printer was the weapon of choice. I seem to think 600 Lines/Minute is typical. So that is about 10 seconds per page. So something like Santa's sleigh and Reindeer could be printed in a couple of minutes. Watching something like that come off was almost hynotic... > >-- Dave Land >Land Computer Service > >Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net Dave G4UGM From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Apr 8 04:03:45 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:03:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, allison wrote: > I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle > time than Ram of the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on > the day was under 1us and dropping. Core memory *is* RAM. Christian From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Apr 8 05:07:50 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 06:07:50 -0400 Subject: Core vs MOS RAM latencies - Re: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <516296F6.8090002@verizon.net> On 04/07/2013 06:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 07/04/13 5:33 PM, allison wrote: >> >>>> The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day >>>> that was >>>> as costly as the base machine if not more. >>> I understand that memory was at a premium back then. >>> Out of interest, how common was core memory (H223 and similar) in QBUS >>> systems? >>> Is BBU supported for the MOS memory options? >> The older LSI11 systems had it if there was a call for non volatile >> memory, the cost was high. >> I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle >> time than Ram of >> the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on the day was under >> 1us and dropping. >> > > That's odd, I seem to recall my handbooks claiming lower latencies for > (Unibus?) core than the MOS products in the same range, but don't have > the right handbook to, uh, hand. > > Can you verify those latencies from your handbook? > > --Toby > That likely was not true for Core on any bus. Core to read it you must write it back and the cycle for that is long. MOS memory was far faster and didn't have the write after read requirement. I have little on Unibus as I restrict my collection to Qbus. Allison From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 05:54:11 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 12:54:11 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <20130407155533.R56745@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161CF2D.6040003@xs4all.nl> <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> <20130407155533.R56745@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5162A1D3.6010109@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 0:59, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I've mostly observed that it's, although perhaps not dead (yet?), >>> /rather invisible/ nowadays. I'm not sure what is worse. >> IBM doesn't mind. Their customers don't mind. Why do YOU mind? > > If I had a niche market of five machines, and made a billion dollars on > each, I wouldn't be desperate for expansion. That's usually not how it works, companies always want more. I guess IBM must be very unusual...? - MG From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Apr 8 06:21:50 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 07:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <51625916.8090408@landcomp.net> References: <51625916.8090408@landcomp.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Dave Land wrote: > On 4/7/13 12:24 PM, craig at solomonson.net wrote: >> I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through >> some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room >> had a few posters hanging on the wall. As I recall, Snoopy was probably the >> most popular subject along with "space stuff." I just had to piece these >> old >> posters together and see what I had printed back in 1981. It turns out that >> at least 2 of them were from the Princeton University Computer Center >> Clinic >> and done by Samuel P. Harbison in 1973. The third one of the Golden Gate >> Bridge is huge (8 ft. wide and 6.5 ft. tall) and no credits were given. >> Here >> are some photos of them for those that are interested: >> ... > > Very cool stuff! Must have taken days, just to print those at the speeds of > the average daisy wheel printer in that time period. :) > (or teletype if that was the weapon of choice) The pictures done by Sam Harbison were specifically designed for the IBM line printers of the time, such as the 1403: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1403 Even with overstrike, it wouldn't have taken long to produce an image. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Apr 8 06:32:22 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:32:22 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5162AAC6.4070003@verizon.net> On 04/08/2013 05:03 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, allison wrote: >> I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle >> time than Ram of the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram >> on the day was under 1us and dropping. > > Core memory *is* RAM. > Pedantically correct. Generally usage is core is magnetic core, ram is mos or other technology. Used to be a time when core meant system memory regardless of type. So in 1973 usage your laptop has 4kilomegabytes of core. (or words depending on organization) Then again thinking more of the PDP-8 is the whole box the cpu or are the prime 3 boards the CPU?? Allison > Christian > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 06:39:12 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 12:39:12 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Re=5B3=5D=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8 April 2013 08:39, Dave wrote: > > Microsofts > virtualization "products" Virtual PC and Hyper-V both prohibit VMs under > VMs. I am not sure they "prohibit" it, but Hyper-V uses the CPU's hardware virtualisation features. It does not and cannot do software virtualisation. VMware and VirtualBox can do S/W virtualisation, so in principle, you can run one copy under another, stacked arbitrarily deep - as deep as performance allows, anyway. VMware /invented/ S/W virtualisation of x86, thus "breaking" the Popek & Goldberg requirements. It ran x86 ring 0 code through a parser, and if it did "unclean" activity that would violate virtual machine integrity, it ran the code in a software emulator, just like SimH or Charon-VAX does. Slow, but effective, and as the CEO of Connectix (the original creators of VirtualPC) told me personally, "you'll find that, when emulating x86 on x86, the ISAs are a really remarkably good match - so the emulation speed is pretty good." ;?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 06:53:19 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:53:19 -0400 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/05/2013 03:22 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > >> It's the new improved "dynamic search algorithm". Go back and do >> the query again from the same machine. The results won't be the same. >> "Recent" updates that Google turned on that supposedly look at the >> totality of your (and apparently other's) recent internet activity to >> post and rank results... > > More to the point, even when I put a term in quotes, Google will still > insist on grabbing things "like" it, often ahead of verbatim results. > This really throws a monkey wrench into trying to come up with precise > searches. > > Perhaps an expanded notation is needed as in "apple:fruit" to sift out > the edible kind. Have you used the "verbatim search" feature? Peace... Sridhar From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 06:10:18 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 06:10:18 -0500 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <51624105.1060700@sydex.com> References: <51624105.1060700@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5162A59A.6030108@gmail.com> On 04/07/2013 11:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/07/2013 11:24 AM, craig at solomonson.net wrote: >> I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through >> some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room >> had a few posters hanging on the wall. > > IIRC, the Playboy Bunny was the most popular one that I saw. In those > days, not suitable for display at work, but a lot of people had copies of > the deck. That was probably the one that I remember being routinely hurled around at peoples' terminals (much later, early '90s) via the Unix write command. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 8 07:21:04 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 08:21:04 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem?= =?UTF-8?Q?_facing_archiving_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> MG wrote: >On 6-apr-2013 23:29, William Donzelli wrote: >> What you say is true - most people, even professionals, do not know >> what a mainframe was or is. The problem is that you are not observing >> things as they are. Much of this is due to the outlook that Unix (and >> Windows) people have - you assume the mainframe is dead, so you look >> no further, and continue assuming the mainframe is dead. The >mainframe >> will not find you, and will not inform you. > >Not how capitalism typically works, though. > > >> In the mainframe market, being invisible has advantages. > >In the /market/ market, it has serious disadvantages. > > But you don't seem to understand that IBM and other mainframe guys don't _want_ to be in thee mass market with that big hardware... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 8 07:42:09 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 08:42:09 -0400 Subject: Core vs MOS RAM latencies - Re: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <516296F6.8090002@verizon.net> References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> <516296F6.8090002@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5162BB21.2050100@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/04/13 6:07 AM, allison wrote: > On 04/07/2013 06:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 07/04/13 5:33 PM, allison wrote: >>> >>>>> The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day >>>>> that was >>>>> as costly as the base machine if not more. >>>> I understand that memory was at a premium back then. >>>> Out of interest, how common was core memory (H223 and similar) in QBUS >>>> systems? >>>> Is BBU supported for the MOS memory options? >>> The older LSI11 systems had it if there was a call for non volatile >>> memory, the cost was high. >>> I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle >>> time than Ram of >>> the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on the day was under >>> 1us and dropping. >>> >> >> That's odd, I seem to recall my handbooks claiming lower latencies for >> (Unibus?) core than the MOS products in the same range, but don't have >> the right handbook to, uh, hand. >> >> Can you verify those latencies from your handbook? >> >> --Toby >> > That likely was not true for Core on any bus. Core to read it you must > write it back and the > cycle for that is long. MOS memory was far faster and didn't have the > write after read > requirement. I am sure you're right, but I also remember this being quoted the other way around in the handbook's numbers. (I am sure it's not related to bus type, just that I was probably working on an 11/34a when I noticed this, so probably out of a Unibus handbook.) --Toby > > I have little on Unibus as I restrict my collection to Qbus. > > Allison > > From dave13 at dunfield.com Mon Apr 8 09:19:50 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 09:19:50 -0500 Subject: Grid Compass I or II CCOS ROMs? Message-ID: <5162C3F6.27546.1193A14@dave13.dunfield.com> >I know I've asked about this in the past, butI figured I'd try again: >Anyone have any idea where to track down ROMs for the Grid Compass I or >II (1101 / 1129)? I accidentally formatted my 1129's internal bubble >memory tonight (while intending to format an external floppy) and now of >course it won't boot. (Doesn't seem to want to try booting from the >floppy drive either, unless there's a magical keysequence...) According to the manual: "To load the operating system from Floppy Disk or Portable Floppy, turn on the computer while holding down the F (for Floppy Disk) key. If both a floppy disk and a portable floppy are attached to your computer and you want to start up from the portable floppy, open the door to the floppy disk drive before turning on the computer." You can also use 'H' to force a boot from a hard drive, otherwise it boots from configured primary storage which is usually Bubble. Dave -- dave13 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield System/Firmware development services: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield From steve at tronola.com Mon Apr 8 06:44:05 2013 From: steve at tronola.com (Steve Lafferty) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:44:05 -0400 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatly exaggerated Message-ID: <201304081144.r38BiAHA013960@mx1.ezwind.net> >Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:16:33 -0700 (PDT) >From: Fred Cisin >Ken Olsen (DEC) once said that there was only need for half a dozen. So >long as there is still need for half a dozen, then it ain't dead! --- It sounds like you are referring to the quote which is attributed to Howard Aiken (NOT Ken Olsen): "Only six electronic digital computers would be required to satisfy the computing needs of the entire United States." (Aiken was also known for such prescient positions as being religiously opposed to storing instructions and data in the same memory space.) Steve L. From rickb at bensene.com Mon Apr 8 08:32:24 2013 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 06:32:24 -0700 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <51625916.8090408@landcomp.net> References: <51625916.8090408@landcomp.net> Message-ID: Dave Land wrote: > > Very cool stuff! Must have taken days, just to print those at the speeds of > the average daisy wheel printer in that time period. :) (or teletype if that was > the weapon of choice) > Typically these were printed on high-speed line printers that ran from 600 to 1200 (or more) lines per minute. At these speeds, these didn't take all that long to print. They did, though, use up a lot of ribbon ink, which is why a lot of computer operators didn't like it when users would spew these out to the (usually located in the machine room) line printers. Many times, when I was an operator, I would kill off jobs printing these to the printer simply because of the wear and tear on the printer, and the ribbon use. I was authorized to kill these kinds of print jobs for these reasons. The jobs were pretty easy to identify by ear, as the printer would make rather unusual noises when printing these kinds of things because of the overprinting used to make the different shading. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From sales at elecplus.com Mon Apr 8 08:46:32 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 08:46:32 -0500 Subject: Festo FPC-202 PLC Message-ID: <012d01ce345f$7ab60610$70221230$@com> What makes 1 machine worth $1000 much more than the other, if they are both identical? http://www.ebay.com/itm/FESTO-ELECTRONICS-FPC-202-TN-008381-TYP-E-FPC-202-PN -31342-/160938881753?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 &hash=item2578b472d9 http://www.barcodemuseum.com/Festo/FPC202.html There are several on eBay for $100 or less. _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6231 - Release Date: 04/07/13 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 8 09:19:40 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 10:19:40 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161CF2D.6040003@xs4all.nl> <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5162D1FC.10108@sbcglobal.net> On 04/07/2013 05:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/07/2013 03:55 PM, MG wrote: >>> For those that say the mainframe (specifically IBM 360/370/390/z-series >>> architecture) is dead, I would say not. >> >> For the record, /I/ didn't say it was dead; I was mostly quoting >> others and also referenced an article. > > For the record, you have been spouting off for two days about how dead the > mainframe is. You've been doing a lot more than just quoting an article > written by a journalist who knows even less about this stuff than you do. > > YOU have been railing on and on, including your dreaded ad hominem attacks, > as if it's your personal mission in life to CAUSE the mainframe industry to > die. You started this pointless drivel by mentioning (not even quoting, that > I recall, just MENTIONING, but I could be wrong about that) an article > published in a good but notoriously "oooh shiny" publication. An article, I > might add, that was very poorly-researched. > Actually, I posted the link to the article; just was something interesting to read. While, yes, the deatils in it may be/ are a bit fuzzy; the overall idea of how to best archive computer data (programs, documents, etc...) is an interesting never-ending issue. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Apr 8 09:44:01 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 10:44:01 -0400 Subject: Core vs MOS RAM latencies - Re: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5162BB21.2050100@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> <516296F6.8090002@verizon.net> <5162BB21.2050100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5162D7B1.7000706@verizon.net> On 04/08/2013 08:42 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 08/04/13 6:07 AM, allison wrote: >> On 04/07/2013 06:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> On 07/04/13 5:33 PM, allison wrote: >>>> >>>>>> The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day >>>>>> that was >>>>>> as costly as the base machine if not more. >>>>> I understand that memory was at a premium back then. >>>>> Out of interest, how common was core memory (H223 and similar) in >>>>> QBUS >>>>> systems? >>>>> Is BBU supported for the MOS memory options? >>>> The older LSI11 systems had it if there was a call for non volatile >>>> memory, the cost was high. >>>> I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle >>>> time than Ram of >>>> the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on the day was >>>> under >>>> 1us and dropping. >>>> >>> >>> That's odd, I seem to recall my handbooks claiming lower latencies for >>> (Unibus?) core than the MOS products in the same range, but don't have >>> the right handbook to, uh, hand. >>> >>> Can you verify those latencies from your handbook? >>> >>> --Toby >>> >> That likely was not true for Core on any bus. Core to read it you must >> write it back and the >> cycle for that is long. MOS memory was far faster and didn't have the >> write after read >> requirement. > > I am sure you're right, but I also remember this being quoted the > other way around in the handbook's numbers. (I am sure it's not > related to bus type, just that I was probably working on an 11/34a > when I noticed this, so probably out of a Unibus handbook.) > There is one way that _may_ and the PDP-11 may take advantage of it... PDP11 does many operation on memory (other than instruction fetch) as READ/Modify/Write and that can be contained in one core cycle. The ya but... for NPR (aka DMA) each location must be cycled completely with core and the general access rate is slower as you must finish writing one location before proceeding to the next. Allison > --Toby > >> >> I have little on Unibus as I restrict my collection to Qbus. >> >> Allison >> >> > > From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 09:50:27 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 16:50:27 +0200 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5162D933.1000105@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 13:53, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Have you used the "verbatim search" feature? > > Peace... Sridhar LOL - MG From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 10:04:02 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:04:02 -0400 Subject: Festo FPC-202 PLC In-Reply-To: <012d01ce345f$7ab60610$70221230$@com> References: <012d01ce345f$7ab60610$70221230$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > What makes 1 machine worth $1000 much more than the other, if they are both > identical? Chutzpah. -ethan From sales at elecplus.com Mon Apr 8 11:06:45 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:06:45 -0500 Subject: vintage items available Message-ID: <00ae01ce3473$115ffdb0$341ff910$@com> I am NOT associated with the seller or the products; please contact him directly if you are interested. WTS the following items from our inventory: 1 New F209-8925-jrb Vintage Burroughs Computer Co. T1500 Check Encoder Encoding Machine 1 New J205-9505-CR Vintage Heath Computer Component 8 Bit VGA Board 150-307-1 1 New Jrb-C410-124 Vintage Pacific Recorders PR&E TI-2 Tape Interface _____ Mike Zabezhinsky Oceantech 1313 Winter St NE (612) 331-4456 email: mike at oceantechonline.com _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6232 - Release Date: 04/08/13 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 8 11:07:17 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 09:07:17 -0700 Subject: Core vs MOS RAM latencies - Re: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5162EB35.20600@sydex.com> On 04/07/2013 03:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > That's odd, I seem to recall my handbooks claiming lower latencies for > (Unibus?) core than the MOS products in the same range, but don't have > the right handbook to, uh, hand. I don't know from UNIBUS, but the CDC 7600 used 270 nsec core, which, in 1969 was much faster than MOS. The 7600 used a 10-way interleave for CP memory, which allowed for an effective 27.5 nsec cycle time. The PPs didn't interleave memory and one quirk of the machine was that it was possible for very tight loops to overheat a location in core, causing parity errors. A fix was eventually used that effectively inserted a "wait state" if any location was hit repeatedly too frequently. The "exchange jump" on the upper CDC systems (6000 and 7000) used a read-modify-write cycle to swap the contents of the registers with an area in memory. It was the fastest way to save and reload the enire register set (using non-privileged instructions was far more time-consuming, due to an odd trick used to save and restore the first register of a set--often used as a quiz to new programmers). --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 8 12:13:59 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 10:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem?= =?UTF-8?Q?_facing_archiving_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> Message-ID: <20130408100524.T70422@shell.lmi.net> > > The mainframe will not find you, and will not inform you. Maybe not with version x.0, but version x.1 runs a background process qualifying leads, and it can find you, IF IT WANTS TO. That's why the calculations rated the supercomputer at 16318 iPads, instead of 16384. If your lead does qualify, it doesn't need to bother informing you; just issue a work order and an invoice. > But you don't seem to understand that IBM and other mainframe guys > don't _want_ to be in thee mass market with that big hardware... I don't claim to understand IBM. They entered MICRO-computers late, and now seem to have abandoned that market. Is IBM motivated by capitalism? Or world domination? How many mainframes will it take for the InfoSPhere? From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 12:36:32 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 10:36:32 -0700 Subject: Grid Compass I or II CCOS ROMs? In-Reply-To: <5162C3F6.27546.1193A14@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <5162C3F6.27546.1193A14@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <51630020.10406@gmail.com> On 4/8/2013 7:19 AM, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> I know I've asked about this in the past, butI figured I'd try again: >> Anyone have any idea where to track down ROMs for the Grid Compass I or >> II (1101 / 1129)? I accidentally formatted my 1129's internal bubble >> memory tonight (while intending to format an external floppy) and now of >> course it won't boot. (Doesn't seem to want to try booting from the >> floppy drive either, unless there's a magical keysequence...) > According to the manual: > > "To load the operating system from Floppy Disk or Portable Floppy, turn > on the computer while holding down the F (for Floppy Disk) key. > > If both a floppy disk and a portable floppy are attached to your computer > and you want to start up from the portable floppy, open the door to the > floppy disk drive before turning on the computer." > > You can also use 'H' to force a boot from a hard drive, otherwise it > boots from configured primary storage which is usually Bubble. > > Dave > Excellent -- it looks like I'm up and running again. Thanks! I don't suppose that manual you're referring to has been scanned? I have yet to find a copy of the user's manual in any form and it'd be nice to have a copy... Thanks again, Josh From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 12:36:59 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 17:36:59 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=5b2=5d=3a=20Tech=20is=20the=20biggest=20problem=20facing=20archiving=20=e2=80=a2=20The=20Register?= In-Reply-To: <5162A1D3.6010109@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Dave G4UGM ------ Original Message ------ From: "MG" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 08/04/2013 11:54:11 Subject: Re: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register >On 8-apr-2013 0:59, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>I've mostly observed that it's, although perhaps not dead (yet?), >>>>/rather invisible/ nowadays. I'm not sure what is worse. >>> IBM doesn't mind. Their customers don't mind. Why do YOU mind? >> >>If I had a niche market of five machines, and made a billion dollars >>on >>each, I wouldn't be desperate for expansion. > >That's usually not how it works, companies always want more. >I guess IBM must be very unusual...? > I don't think so. There are plenty of companies where production is deliberately limited to keep the price high. > - MG From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 12:40:21 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 17:40:21 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=5b3=5d=3a=20Tech=20is=20the=20biggest=20problem=20facing=20archiving=20=e2=80=a2=20The=20Register?= In-Reply-To: <20130408100524.T70422@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Dave G4UGM ------ Original Message ------ From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 08/04/2013 18:13:59 Subject: Re: Re: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register >> > The mainframe will not find you, and will not inform you. > >Maybe not with version x.0, but version x.1 runs a background process >qualifying leads, and it can find you, IF IT WANTS TO. That's why the >calculations rated the supercomputer at 16318 iPads, instead of 16384. >If your lead does qualify, it doesn't need to bother informing you; >just issue a work order and an invoice. > >> But you don't seem to understand that IBM and other mainframe guys >> don't _want_ to be in thee mass market with that big hardware... > >I don't claim to understand IBM. >They entered MICRO-computers late, >and now seem to have abandoned that market. > They sold that division to Lenovo , but they still provide the support infrastructure, at least in the UK... >Is IBM motivated by capitalism? Or world domination? >How many mainframes will it take for the InfoSPhere? > > > > > From sales at elecplus.com Mon Apr 8 13:59:54 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 13:59:54 -0500 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 Message-ID: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> Does anybody know anything about this machine? Not even a keyboard or monitor port on it! Pics are here: https://plus.google.com/photos/106111250846948401252/albums/5864544551344799 681?banner=pwa _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6232 - Release Date: 04/08/13 From sales at elecplus.com Mon Apr 8 14:38:40 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 14:38:40 -0500 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> Message-ID: <024601ce3490$abd96850$038c38f0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 2:00 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 Does anybody know anything about this machine? Not even a keyboard or monitor port on it! Pics are here: https://plus.google.com/photos/106111250846948401252/albums/5864544551344799 681?banner=pwa Just had a VERY nice conversation with Tom from Intergraph tech support. Needless to say, this has been obsolete for many years. It was a plotter server, ran Clix (proprietary version of Unix), the largest hdd it would take was a 600mb 68-pin SCSI. It does have a 360kb floppy. Communication is through the RS-232 port in VT-220 mode only. IF he can find the keys, software, and docs for this old beast, he will email me back. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6232 - Release Date: 04/08/13 From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 14:59:03 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 21:59:03 +0200 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> Message-ID: <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 20:59, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Does anybody know anything about this machine? > > Not even a keyboard or monitor port on it! > > Pics are here: > https://plus.google.com/photos/106111250846948401252/albums/5864544551344799 > 681?banner=pwa The exterior design reminds me a bit of an Intergraph CLIPPER UNIX ("CLIX") system I used to have (and regret having parted with, unknowingly, as a teen running out of space). - MG From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 8 14:18:45 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 20:18:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Apr 8, 13 00:32:25 am Message-ID: > > Sorry to hear about your Dad mate, big hugs from the flatlands up north! Thank you. As I said, he;d not been well for quite some time (although fortunately his brain was good up until the end, the day before he died I had a long chat with him in the hospital about photography and he was certainly still acting logically). Towards the eend, though I felt it was more a case of 'wehen he passes away' and not 'if...' That said it was stil la shock when it happeend. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 8 14:29:04 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 20:29:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <201304080149.VAA08484@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Apr 7, 13 09:49:25 pm Message-ID: > > >> I'm sorry for your loss as well. > > Thank you. > > Me too. I have maybe a vague idea what it's like, from losing my own > parents, which was, to put it mildly, Not Fun At All. HTnak you. I most certianly is not fun... Sorting out his estate, paying the necessary taxes (which will involve me selling the house and moving...) is not fun. Even less fun is being on my own all the time. The last was made slightly easier by the fact that my fatehr was in hospital a lot in the least year so I got used to doing everything myself. Even so, I visitied him every day and had many interesting coverestaions which I certainly miss. > > > My view is that in many cases the museum policy on acquisitions is > > fundalmentally broken in that they can't give away or sell stuff > > they've been given to just anybody,. > > I agree that this is seriously broken. But, as for the pragmatic > matter of what to put in your will, maybe you could, rather than > willing your collection to a museum, specify that the museum is to get > whatever subset they want, with the rest to be disposed of otherwise? > (Of course, this does mean choosing a value of "otherwise". I suggest > it just as a workaround for such broken museum policies.) Yes. That essentailly is what I have been asking for. My problems are absically : I have some quite rare machines and other artefacts, along with some very common ones. I also have things which although wuite common are certainly useful (tools, test gear, etc). For obvious reasons I want as much of it as possible to be presereed and enjoyed after I am gone. Now, if I leavee it to a person (which is, and will remain, my first choice), there is the possibilty that daid person wil ldie before me. In which case the will is worthless. So what I am looking for is an organisation which will be arorund when I die (which might well be in 40 or more years time) and which will take what it wants from my stuff and pass the rest on to other people or organisations. But such an organisation does nto seem to exist. Oh well, I tried. -tony From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 15:04:48 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:04:48 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516322E0.3000005@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 19:36, Dave wrote: > I don't think so. There are plenty of companies where production > is deliberately limited to keep the price high. A very lamentable practice, I must say. (I doubt anyone would care, I'm just a /little person/.) - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 15:14:48 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:14:48 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51632538.7020602@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 0:13, Dave wrote: > IBM sell and support VMWare on their Intel and AMD servers. Why don't they sell more z/VM on their "z" things instead of VMware on "x" things? I mean, if mainframes are so future-proof, desirable and perfect. > Because of the "suits". By keeping zSeries as a niche product IBM > can charge premium prices and keep the profit margins high. But wouldn't that mean that they're trying to line their pockets, fill their wallets and freeload, milking out in so far things can (still?) be milked out? > When we discarded our Mainframe, a small Multiprise box IBM showed > no interest in selling us an upgrade. They are quite happy to keep > selling us xSeries servers though. By selling xSeries and iSeries > boxes "relatively" cheaply they can sell zSeries as a high reliability, > high margin box. But why would they if more andm ore are going to "i" and "x"? > I personally think this is what allows zSeries to survive. Do you know for sure, though? Some articles I've read seem to suggest otherwise. > In my opinion the biggest mistake DEC made was to try and take the > Alpha chip down market. It spoilt the brand image. That's the first time I heard anyone say this before... Most people complain that it was overpriced and (still) to hard to obtain, along with (of course) a poor software library (e.g. under AXP versions of Windows). >>> Another interesting statistic is average capacity utilization: >>> Wintel-based servers: 8-15% >>> Unix/RISC: 28-45% >>> Mainframes: 65-75% >> >> Where did you get these figures from? >> >> > They match with the survey we did before we went to VMWare. Do you remember where it may be. If so, could you please point me to the results of that survey? > IBM typically sell you a box with more CPUs in that you need, and charge > by CPU power so it makes sense to run those that are enabled pretty near > flat out. If you need a boost then they sell you a code to allow you to > enable more CPU speed. HP seems to be offering that as well (also "pay-per-use" and other setups). But that's what I mean, what is IBM doing to make sure that they still 'stand out' and are 'ahead of the curve'? To me, as a spectator, it seems like it's going down hill. It's slowly becoming a bi-polar, x86 and ARM, world. In my view, IBM, HP, Oracle, etc. aren't really fighting it very hard either. Maybe IBM a bit more than the latter two, but maybe it's even too much for them (not even so much that they're allowing to let it happen). - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 15:25:22 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:25:22 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> Message-ID: <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 14:21, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > But you don't seem to understand that IBM and other mainframe > guys don't _want_ to be in thee mass market with that big hardware... Or maybe they don't want people (and the /little people/ in particular) to find out that they've been providing the "mainframe" backbone for all those /nice/ bailed-out banks, bailed out in the last years in America and Europe, with the /little people/'s tax-payer money...? - MG From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 8 15:37:38 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 16:37:38 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> On 04/08/2013 04:25 PM, MG wrote: > On 8-apr-2013 14:21, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> But you don't seem to understand that IBM and other mainframe >> guys don't _want_ to be in thee mass market with that big hardware... > > Or maybe they don't want people (and the /little people/ in particular) > to find out that they've been providing the "mainframe" backbone for > all those /nice/ bailed-out banks, bailed out in the last years in > America and Europe, with the /little people/'s tax-payer money...? > Hrmm? I thought the MandrakeOT list was the only place members wore shiny hats of tin? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From tsg at bonedaddy.net Mon Apr 8 15:41:18 2013 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 16:41:18 -0400 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: <201304080149.VAA08484@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130408204118.GC23023@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Tony Duell [130408 16:17]: > > > > >> I'm sorry for your loss as well. > > > Thank you. I'm sorry for your loss as well. [..] > My problems are absically : > > I have some quite rare machines and other artefacts, along with some very > common ones. I also have things which although wuite common are certainly > useful (tools, test gear, etc). > > For obvious reasons I want as much of it as possible to be presereed and > enjoyed after I am gone. > > Now, if I leavee it to a person (which is, and will remain, my first > choice), there is the possibilty that daid person wil ldie before me. In > which case the will is worthless. > > So what I am looking for is an organisation which will be arorund when I > die (which might well be in 40 or more years time) and which will take > what it wants from my stuff and pass the rest on to other people or > organisations. > > But such an organisation does nto seem to exist. Oh well, I tried. > > -tony First of all, the usual disclaimers, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. I haven't even stayed in a Holiday Inn Express (ever, not just last night.) I'm in the US and not the UK and don't know how estate law works there (though we're both common law countries starting from the same point so maybe some of it applies.) But I have done estate planning here in the US (northeast, MA and NH.) I have a number of collections which I hope to provide a share of to my wife and the rest of the shares to my children. I would think in your case you could set up all of your "collection" (specified in suitable general legalese so that it doesn't require updating your will every time you add or dispose of an item in your "collection") to transfer to a trust that is created upon your death. You can name trustees (hopefully more than one) in the order you wish them and if one is not alive then another can become trustee. To handle the case of all your trustees predeceding you can make arrangements with lawyers offices who generally make a business of being "trustees-for-pay." (I don't know if they have to be lawyers, it doesn't seem like a requirement as long as whatever entity it is can survive you, but the case here in the US in my experience.) You'd have to reach some agreement on how they'd be paid. Perhaps, they can sell items in your collection to pay themselves, or get prepaid, get paid out of other assets you might have outside of the "collection," etc. You could set terms of the trust such that the trustee should offer the collection first to museum A then museum B then for the cost of shipping on this mailing list (if it exists) or any suitable public medium, etc. Of course the tricky bit will be the arrangement with your "last resort" trustee. Another option here is to create an LLC and transfer the entire "collection" to it with you as the manager and sole member. Then in your will specify to whom shares of the LLC will pass. Here in the US there are companies that can be hired to manage the LLC as well in case there is no one else surviving. This can be used as a way to divide your "collection" between more than one entity without specifying specific pieces (with all that entails for issues for the shareholders in the future,) but that doesn't seem to be your problem. Or how about trying to find a number of younger individuals with the same interests as you, becoming friends if you vet them to your liking, and then use them as trustees. Or just a larger number of any age friends with the idea that the chances of someone surviving you goes up the more trustees you get? FWIW. Regards, Todd From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 15:53:33 2013 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 22:53:33 +0200 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I wish there was an Intergraph wiki or short summary of models with specs. Maybe I would even choose what I would like to want, if any. -- Ola Hughson From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 8 16:06:40 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 17:06:40 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Gates_and_Allen_reshoot_historic_1981?= =?windows-1252?Q?_Microsoft_photo_=95_The_Register?= Message-ID: <51633160.5010008@sbcglobal.net> Interesting photo redone, er reshot... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/04/gates_allen_reshoot_photo/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 16:28:28 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 17:28:28 -0400 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > I wish there was an Intergraph wiki or short summary of models with > specs. Maybe I would even choose what I would like to want, if any. Intergraphs are the great forgotten workstations using the great forget microprocessor. But then, Intergraph has been complete dicks about being hobbyist friendly. -- Will From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 16:40:20 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 23:40:20 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 22:37, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Hrmm? I thought the MandrakeOT list was the only place members > wore shiny hats of tin? The bail-outs are an 'illusion', you're telling me? (And /I/ am the one wearing a tinfoil hat...?!) Have you been living under/inside a "mainframe" all that time, or so? - MG From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 16:42:07 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 21:42:07 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=5b2=5d=3a=20Tech=20is=20the=20biggest=20problem=20facing=20archiving=20=e2=80=a2=20The=20Register?= In-Reply-To: <51632538.7020602@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I do hate answering the obvious trolling, but I am weak willed so some answers in lin ------ Original Message ------ From: "MG" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 08/04/2013 21:14:48 Subject: Re: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register >On 8-apr-2013 0:13, Dave wrote: >>IBM sell and support VMWare on their Intel and AMD servers. > >Why don't they sell more z/VM on their "z" things instead of VMware >on "x" things? I mean, if mainframes are so future-proof, desirable >and perfect. > > They are big and expensive and difficult to justify for a small business? Even with "Capacity on Demand" the entry level prices are such that an SME (google for what percentage of the market are SME) can't afford to get on the ladder. There is a lot more to VMWare (and Hyper-V) than just Virtualization... >>Because of the "suits". By keeping zSeries as a niche product IBM >>can charge premium prices and keep the profit margins high. > >But wouldn't that mean that they're trying to line their pockets, >fill their wallets and freeload, milking out in so far things can >(still?) be milked out? > I can't possibly comment... ... but others say VMWare is getting expensive compared to the Microsoft Hyper-V. > >>When we discarded our Mainframe, a small Multiprise box IBM showed >>no interest in selling us an upgrade. They are quite happy to keep >>selling us xSeries servers though. By selling xSeries and iSeries >>boxes "relatively" cheaply they can sell zSeries as a high >>reliability, >>high margin box. > >But why would they if more andm ore are going to "i" and "x"? > > >>I personally think this is what allows zSeries to survive. > >Do you know for sure, though? Some articles I've read seem to >suggest otherwise. > > No one outside IBM knows for sure. Getting figures for how many zSeries boxes in use is pretty challenging.. >>In my opinion the biggest mistake DEC made was to try and take the >>Alpha chip down market. It spoilt the brand image. > >That's the first time I heard anyone say this before... Most people >complain that it was overpriced and (still) to hard to obtain, along >with (of course) a poor software library (e.g. under AXP versions of >Windows). > I don't remember it being hard to obtain. I think the "overpriced" argument only appeared when they produced the cheaper "windows only" servers. Poor software library was also an issue, so whilst you could get the Microsoft Exchange server on Alpha, you need an Intel box to run the Lotus Notes and Profs/SNADS connectors. >>>>Another interesting statistic is average capacity utilization: >>>>Wintel-based servers: 8-15% >>>>Unix/RISC: 28-45% >>>>Mainframes: 65-75% >>> >>>Where did you get these figures from? >>> >>> >>They match with the survey we did before we went to VMWare. > >Do you remember where it may be. If so, could you please point me >to the results of that survey? > > Sorry it was a survey of our internal sever estate, so its not available on the public domain. >>IBM typically sell you a box with more CPUs in that you need, and >>charge >>by CPU power so it makes sense to run those that are enabled pretty >>near >>flat out. If you need a boost then they sell you a code to allow you >>to >>enable more CPU speed. > >HP seems to be offering that as well (also "pay-per-use" and other >setups). > >But that's what I mean, what is IBM doing to make sure that they >still 'stand out' and are 'ahead of the curve'? To me, as a >spectator, it seems like it's going down hill. > >It's slowly becoming a bi-polar, x86 and ARM, world. In my view, >IBM, HP, Oracle, etc. aren't really fighting it very hard either. >Maybe IBM a bit more than the latter two, but maybe it's even too >much for them (not even so much that they're allowing to let it >happen). > I feel Oracle (Sun as was) is going the same way as IBM zSeries. Not only has our Mainframe gone but also most of our Oracle (SUN) servers. VMWare lets us deliver Linux or Windows VMs as a service. Ring me up in the morning and I'll usually have a new Red Hat or Windows server up and running by lunch time ready for you to install your apps on. (it could be made quicker but I don't do enough to make it worth while) I guess I could also deliver Solaris X86 the same way. We don't have enough Oracle (nee SUN) boxes to be able to deliver them at that rate, but in theory Oracle Solaris can do the same. VMware works just like IBM used to with 360 mainframes. It has such a really low entry point (S/360 model 30 comes to mind), and generally once you are in you are in and addicted. The smallest physical VMWare server my employer has around $3,000 dollars and was used to consolidate virtualize a small pile of desktop PCs used to manage a thin client environment, and run a time management system. Total cost around $3000 dollars. I am also looking at some big boxes for a CPU intensive application. These may well turn out at $25,000 or more each. If you are really big you can pay twice that... However provided the physical boxes are on the same VLAN and SAN I can transparently move the RUNNING servers from the smallest box to the largest with no impact to the user, no re-boot, and the OS won't even notice the move. http://www.vmware.com/uk/products/datacenter-virtualization/vsphere/vmotion.html Microsoft have a similar facility for Hyper-V called "live migration". http://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/download/details.aspx?id=12601 Watching VMWare VMotion a VM between two ESX hosts is still something I find difficult to believe, but the system does it all the time, to load balance. It will also do dynamic power management where it automatically consolidates the work load during times of low capacity demand. (I haven't tried that yet) Last time I looked IBM was promising this for a future release of zVM but it may be here now. Of course IBM boxes are big enough that they don't need it for performance and there is enough redundancy in a big box for most needs.. > - MG Hope thats all clear. Its past my early bed time over here in East Pondia... Dave G4UGM From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 16:43:44 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 16:43:44 -0500 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I have a fellow co-worker who used to work for Intergraph during its heyday. I asked him about it so we'll see what he has to say. On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 4:28 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > I wish there was an Intergraph wiki or short summary of models with > > specs. Maybe I would even choose what I would like to want, if any. > > Intergraphs are the great forgotten workstations using the great > forget microprocessor. > > But then, Intergraph has been complete dicks about being hobbyist friendly. > > -- > Will > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 8 16:56:45 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 17:56:45 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> On 04/08/2013 05:40 PM, MG wrote: > On 8-apr-2013 22:37, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Hrmm? I thought the MandrakeOT list was the only place members >> wore shiny hats of tin? > > The bail-outs are an 'illusion', you're telling me? (And /I/ am the > one wearing a tinfoil hat...?!) > > Have you been living under/inside a "mainframe" all that time, or > so? > > - MG Nope, I didn't tell you anything. Merely asked a question of the group; regarding the allowed headgear when participating here. It'd be kinda cramped to live under a mainframe, but I'd stay warm at least. Have a good day, Mr. Troll. :) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 16:58:56 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 23:58:56 +0200 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51633DA0.90108@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 23:28, William Donzelli wrote: > Intergraphs are the great forgotten workstations using the great > forget microprocessor. > > But then, Intergraph has been complete dicks about being hobbyist > friendly. That I remember too well, back in the 1990s, which certainly must have contributed to me parting with my CLIPPER back then... - MG From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 17:07:43 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 18:07:43 -0400 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: >> Intergraphs are the great forgotten workstations using the great >> forget microprocessor. ^^^^^ Goddamn computers. I hate them. "forgotten" not "forget" -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 17:14:59 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 18:14:59 -0400 Subject: Cross country hauling - an update Message-ID: Thanks to all so far that have expressed interest in me hauling their computer goodies across the country. As I think most of the interested parties know, my roadtrip has been delayed until June. I am resetting all the deals, as things were just not gelling properly. Anyway, many of you have already been contacted, and may be contacted again, to get the deals restarted, and to finalize the whole roadtrip. I am sorry that I could not do all the hauling requested - not enough space in the van. One thing - for any deal, I need to know exactly who I am dealing with, with *full* contact information. If someone has a deal piggybacking on another deal that I am hauling, I absolutely need to know about it. Basically, I need to know everything. Please keep in mind that I keep all of this information very discrete, and in fact, am under NDAs with some customers. No blabbermouthing from me. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 8 17:38:22 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 16:38:22 -0600 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 8 17:43:43 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:43:43 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <57A6EB97-AAE9-4F09-9756-E35C2DFDD756@shiresoft.com> On Apr 7, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Mouse wrote: > >>> By providing virtualisation, VMware is doing for Intel platforms >>> what VM/370 did onmainframes in the 1970?s. > > Is it? How easy is it to run VM-in-VM with VMware? (That's a serious > question; I have never even looked at it myself. Work has never > required it, and, like all closed-source software, it's simply not > under consideration for my home use. Someday I want to learn enough of > the x86 hypervisor hardware facilities to build a hypervisor of my own, > but so far opportunity and inclination have not coincided for that.) > x86 HW doesn't really allow VM-in-VM. If VMWare supports it at all it's all through SW emulation. TTFN - Guy From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 17:50:45 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 00:50:45 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 23:56, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Nope, I didn't tell you anything. Merely asked a question of the > group; regarding the allowed headgear when participating here. > > It'd be kinda cramped to live under a mainframe, but I'd stay warm > at least. > > Have a good day, Mr. Troll. :) Said the coward who called someone a nut, not even willing to say why (or let alone substantiate such claims/smears), but is too yellow to even admit having done so. - MG From jon at jonworld.com Mon Apr 8 18:04:48 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 19:04:48 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <57A6EB97-AAE9-4F09-9756-E35C2DFDD756@shiresoft.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <57A6EB97-AAE9-4F09-9756-E35C2DFDD756@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2013, at 6:43 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > x86 HW doesn't really allow VM-in-VM. If VMWare supports it at all > it's all through SW emulation. Gotcha. Depends on the VM, too. I'm running SIMH under OpenBSD under VMWare for one of my projects. But that wasn't the original question. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 18:06:46 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 19:06:46 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 05:42 PM, Dave wrote: >>> In my opinion the biggest mistake DEC made was to try and take the >>> Alpha chip down market. It spoilt the brand image. >> >> That's the first time I heard anyone say this before... Most people >> complain that it was overpriced and (still) to hard to obtain, along >> with (of course) a poor software library (e.g. under AXP versions of >> Windows). >> > I don't remember it being hard to obtain. I think the "overpriced" > argument only appeared when they produced the cheaper "windows only" > servers. > Poor software library was also an issue, so whilst you could get the > Microsoft Exchange server on Alpha, you need an Intel box to run the > Lotus Notes and Profs/SNADS connectors. Alphas were never hard to obtain. Pick up the phone and order one, and it shows up. I did it myself, time and time again, through the 90s. From tiny desktops to several-hundred-kilobuck AltaVista-class machines with 8GB of RAM (in 1994!), they were all just a phone call away. As far as software...you got UNIX and a C compiler, and the net provided the rest. Life was good. Nobody in their right mind ran Windows on Alphas, and the "getting work done" part of the networking world never wanted to play in that dirt. They were expensive, but no more so than their peers. (which did not include cheap PC hardware, but then, we didn't run that stuff in that world) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 18:13:29 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 01:13:29 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 23:42, Dave wrote: > I do hate answering the obvious trolling, but I am weak willed so > some answers in lin You thought by calling me names (e.g. "troll") I'd 'back down'? What kind of logic is behind that? You only make me more 'eager' to inquire and get to the bottom of this. Note that I was never 'trolling', just critically interested in what this "z" stuff entails nowadays and cross-referencing articles of well-known publications (like The Register). So far, no refutations, just name-calling. Well, a bit of something vaguely resembling a /discussion/ is slowly returning. So, I guess that's a good sign and it's not all lost yet. (By the way, are you the same 'Dave'?) > They are big and expensive and difficult to justify for a small > business? Even with "Capacity on Demand" the entry level prices are > such that an SME (google for what percentage of the market are SME) > can't afford to get on the ladder. There is a lot more to VMWare (and > Hyper-V) than just Virtualization... I've seen smaller form factor IBM mainframes before, like recently in a YouTube video. Also, whatever prevented IBM from creating more and even more compact mainframes? Like I asked before: What the hell is it with this disturbing 'elitism', 'mainframe royalty'? That of all people, the most republican bunch on this planet (Americans) are defending this goes beyond me... > I can't possibly comment... > ... but others say VMWare is getting expensive compared to the Microsoft > Hyper-V. Could be, but it's hard to deny that they're very proliferated. (And no, I don't 'love' or even prefer any of the above. This is just, again, an observation.) > No one outside IBM knows for sure. Getting figures for how many > zSeries boxes in use is pretty challenging.. HP does the same for some of its product lines (or, actually, those that they inherited from Compaq and DEC in turn) and people are equally critical about that practice. Why do many IBM and particularly "i" and "z" people lack this (self-)critical ability? Also, wouldn't it be in their interest if they and future potential users got better access to it and the platform became a bit more 'common'? > I don't remember it being hard to obtain. I think the "overpriced" > argument only appeared when they produced the cheaper "windows only" > servers. Well, for those it naturally applied even more so. But, also for the AlphaServer/AlphaStation systems though. Just take a look on comp.os.vms, or its archives, for instance. Or, look at the current market in Alpha parts (with regard to my remark about "still"). > Poor software library was also an issue, so whilst you could get the > Microsoft Exchange server on Alpha, you need an Intel box to run the > Lotus Notes and Profs/SNADS connectors. That was a huge problem, but even more so for the failed attempts at workstations... Only some high-end 3D software made it to it, not typically the most profitable, high-volume, stuff. In fact, many of those programs back then were also optimized for people going cheap on graphics accelerators and --- from what I understood --- many NT AXP systems in that line of work ended up as 'render nodes' ... since, after all, the processor itself was still very capable and impressive. > Sorry it was a survey of our internal sever estate, so its not available > on the public domain. Unfortunate, not to mention very convenient for those interested in the outside world... > Watching VMWare VMotion a VM between two ESX hosts is still something I > find difficult to believe, but the system does it all the time, to load > balance. It will also do dynamic power management where it automatically > consolidates the work load during times of low capacity demand. (I > haven't tried that yet) That's interesting, sure, but it's also very boring at the same time if you ask me. The magic of computing is largely gone nowadays, lost in the abstraction layers within abstraction layers (as Dr. Bernd Ulmann put it once). > Last time I looked IBM was promising this for a future release of zVM > but it may be here now. Of course IBM boxes are big enough that they > don't need it for performance and there is enough redundancy in a big > box for most needs.. That's interesting. Still a shame IBM allowed it to lag behind. What will happen if IBM would hypothetically disappear? You think I'm 'trolling'? You're dead wrong. (But it's too bad I had to spell it out.) I'm critical, because I am concerned about the growing x86 & ARM bi-polarity. There is nothing both those two, it seems, nowadays. HP is only keeping up appearances with its IA-64 offerings, just to annoy Oracle and that's about it, it seems. I doubt Oracle in turn would keep the SPARC stuff alive much longer either, they seem /content/ with their x86 things. So, that leaves IBM as the last big non-x86/non-ARM player, wouldn't it? - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 18:18:03 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 01:18:03 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5163502B.3090407@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 1:13, I wrote: > Unfortunate, not to mention very convenient for those interested in > the outside world... Correction: "Convenient" in the above naturally has to be /inconvenient/. - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 18:40:32 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 19:40:32 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51635570.6050208@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 07:13 PM, MG wrote: > On 8-apr-2013 23:42, Dave wrote: >> I do hate answering the obvious trolling, but I am weak willed so >> some answers in lin > > You thought by calling me names (e.g. "troll") I'd 'back down'? > What kind of logic is behind that? You only make me more 'eager' > to inquire and get to the bottom of this. > > Note that I was never 'trolling', just critically interested in what > this "z" stuff entails nowadays and cross-referencing articles of > well-known publications (like The Register). I cannot sit still for this one. You are not "critically interested". You sit there spouting off "MAINFRAMES ARE DEAD, YOU ARE A RELIC IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE" in various ways, trolling with your cluelessness and tired old rhetoric. Do not EVEN try to bring any degree of respectability to the shit you've spewed here. There was no "critically interested" about it. You are a clueless troll, nothing more, and nothing less. And there's MORE...See below! > So far, no refutations, just name-calling. Well, a bit of something > vaguely resembling a /discussion/ is slowly returning. So, I guess > that's a good sign and it's not all lost yet. > > (By the way, are you the same 'Dave'?) He is not the same "Dave". > HP is only keeping up appearances with its IA-64 offerings, just > to annoy Oracle and that's about it, it seems. I doubt Oracle > in turn would keep the SPARC stuff alive much longer either, > they seem /content/ with their x86 things. Keep reading the news, you're missing stuff. The latest SPARC hit the streets a week or two ago. Are you pretending to know more about the SPARC market than Oracle now, as well as knowing more about the mainframe market than IBM? What color IS the sky in your world, anyway? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 18:56:28 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 01:56:28 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 1:06, Dave McGuire wrote: > Alphas were never hard to obtain. Okay, AlphaPCs, AXPpci and the like were offered to 'lower end' and consumer markets. But, like I said, for what were they actually useful and why did nobody end up getting them? I mean, since they weren't hard to obtain, wouldn't that be worse then? > Pick up the phone and order one, and it shows up. I regret to have to inform you that my phone isn't capable of time traveling yet... > I did it myself, time and time again, through the 90s. I did see them on offer in computer magazines. But, again, the aforementioned variety. > From tiny desktops to several-hundred-kilobuck AltaVista-class > machines with 8GB of RAM (in 1994!), they were all just a phone > call away. Also a few additional loans and mortgages... (Especially the more useful and interesting "AlphaStation"/"AlphaServer" systems.) > As far as software...you got UNIX and a C compiler, and the > net provided the rest. Have you recently tried to build Tru64 UNIX pkgsrc offerings? (For instance.) That convenience, although I can't retroactively check that, is hardly there... (Or, certainly not anymore.) Digital/Tru64 UNIX saw quite a bit of usage, especially here. Many companies and government agencies ran VMS and Tru64 UNIX, but it's sadly all dead now and gone to Windows and Linux. > Life was good. Nobody in their right mind ran Windows on > Alphas Guess what those affordable Alphas were only capable of running... (Hint: It starts with a /W/.) > [T]he "getting work done" part of the networking world > neverwanted to play in that dirt. You are forgetting about graphics and post-production now. Look up things like SOFTIMAGE|3D, mental ray and LightWave 3D, amongst other things. Those enjoyed Windows AXP ports, Tru64 UNIX (and VMS, needless to say) never did... > They were expensive, but no more so than their peers. Well guess what happened with their peers as well? - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 19:13:35 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 02:13:35 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51635570.6050208@neurotica.com> References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> <51635570.6050208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51635D2F.90108@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 1:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > I cannot sit still for this one. > > You are not "critically interested". You sit there spouting off > "MAINFRAMES ARE DEAD, YOU ARE A RELIC IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE" in various > ways, trolling with your cluelessness and tired old rhetoric. > > Do not EVEN try to bring any degree of respectability to the shit > you've spewed here. There was no "critically interested" about it. Watch the blood pressure. I know it's not an emotional issue for you, but just saying... > Keep reading the news, you're missing stuff. The latest SPARC hit the > streets a week or two ago. So? Also a new Itanium arrived a while ago. > Are you pretending to know more about the SPARC market than Oracle now, > as well as knowing more about the mainframe market than IBM? Your psychic abilities continue to astound me. > What color IS the sky in your world, anyway? That would really depend on the weather, now wouldn't it? - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 19:15:09 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 20:15:09 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 07:56 PM, MG wrote: >> Alphas were never hard to obtain. > > Okay, AlphaPCs, AXPpci and the like were offered to 'lower end' > and consumer markets. But, like I said, for what were they > actually useful and why did nobody end up getting them? I > mean, since they weren't hard to obtain, wouldn't that be > worse then? I dunno, I had quite a few of them in my datacenter. They were very common in my world. Some of them still are. >> Pick up the phone and order one, and it shows up. > > I regret to have to inform you that my phone isn't capable of > time traveling yet... As I said, which is quoted below, IN THE 1990s. >> I did it myself, time and time again, through the 90s. > > I did see them on offer in computer magazines. But, again, > the aforementioned variety. Dropping a quarter mil on a big server isn't usually done via ads in computer magazines. >> From tiny desktops to several-hundred-kilobuck AltaVista-class >> machines with 8GB of RAM (in 1994!), they were all just a phone >> call away. > > Also a few additional loans and mortgages... (Especially the more > useful and interesting "AlphaStation"/"AlphaServer" systems.) Are you under some impression that these machines were intended for home use by consumers?? >> As far as software...you got UNIX and a C compiler, and the >> net provided the rest. > > Have you recently tried to build Tru64 UNIX pkgsrc offerings? > (For instance.) That convenience, although I can't retroactively > check that, is hardly there... (Or, certainly not anymore.) Pkgsrc? Nope, but I built stuff all day long back then. I had no problems. It was no easier nor more difficult than building things on any other OS. > Digital/Tru64 UNIX saw quite a bit of usage, especially here. > Many companies and government agencies ran VMS and Tru64 UNIX, > but it's sadly all dead now and gone to Windows and Linux. ALL of it, huh? *chuckle* >> Life was good. Nobody in their right mind ran Windows on >> Alphas > > Guess what those affordable Alphas were only capable of > running... (Hint: It starts with a /W/.) ...for the cheap consumer market, and the idiots... Besides, DEC would *give* you OSF/1 if you bought an Alpha, in nearly all cases. Once again, you're dead wrong. At least you're consistent. >> [T]he "getting work done" part of the networking world >> neverwanted to play in that dirt. > > You are forgetting about graphics and post-production now. > Look up things like SOFTIMAGE|3D, mental ray and LightWave > 3D, amongst other things. Those enjoyed Windows AXP ports, > Tru64 UNIX (and VMS, needless to say) never did... I didn't work in that world. It was owned by SGI anyway; Alphas were never a serious player in that world. >> They were expensive, but no more so than their peers. > > Well guess what happened with their peers as well? Here we go again! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 19:23:55 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 20:23:55 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51635D2F.90108@xs4all.nl> References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> <51635570.6050208@neurotica.com> <51635D2F.90108@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51635F9B.104@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 08:13 PM, MG wrote: >> I cannot sit still for this one. >> >> You are not "critically interested". You sit there spouting off >> "MAINFRAMES ARE DEAD, YOU ARE A RELIC IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE" in various >> ways, trolling with your cluelessness and tired old rhetoric. >> >> Do not EVEN try to bring any degree of respectability to the shit >> you've spewed here. There was no "critically interested" about it. > > Watch the blood pressure. I know it's not an emotional issue for you, > but just saying... You truly are an ass. This list attracts more asses than any other I've seen, but you are definitely in the top five. I'm impressed! If you direct your energies somewhere other than trolling on mailing lists from the safety of your mom's basement, you might become impressive in other ways as well. But...I kinda doubt it. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 19:35:10 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 01:35:10 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 9 April 2013 00:56, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 1:06, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Alphas were never hard to obtain. > > > Okay, AlphaPCs, AXPpci and the like were offered to 'lower end' > and consumer markets. But, like I said, for what were they > actually useful and why did nobody end up getting them? I > mean, since they weren't hard to obtain, wouldn't that be > worse then? > > > >> Pick up the phone and order one, and it shows up. > > > I regret to have to inform you that my phone isn't capable of > time traveling yet... > > > >> I did it myself, time and time again, through the 90s. > > > I did see them on offer in computer magazines. But, again, > the aforementioned variety. > > > >> From tiny desktops to several-hundred-kilobuck AltaVista-class >> machines with 8GB of RAM (in 1994!), they were all just a phone >> call away. > > > Also a few additional loans and mortgages... (Especially the more > useful and interesting "AlphaStation"/"AlphaServer" systems.) > > > >> As far as software...you got UNIX and a C compiler, and the >> net provided the rest. > > > Have you recently tried to build Tru64 UNIX pkgsrc offerings? > (For instance.) That convenience, although I can't retroactively > check that, is hardly there... (Or, certainly not anymore.) > > Digital/Tru64 UNIX saw quite a bit of usage, especially here. > Many companies and government agencies ran VMS and Tru64 UNIX, > but it's sadly all dead now and gone to Windows and Linux. > > > >> Life was good. Nobody in their right mind ran Windows on >> Alphas > > > Guess what those affordable Alphas were only capable of > running... (Hint: It starts with a /W/.) > > >> [T]he "getting work done" part of the networking world >> neverwanted to play in that dirt. > > > You are forgetting about graphics and post-production now. > Look up things like SOFTIMAGE|3D, mental ray and LightWave > 3D, amongst other things. Those enjoyed Windows AXP ports, > Tru64 UNIX (and VMS, needless to say) never did... > > > >> They were expensive, but no more so than their peers. > > > Well guess what happened with their peers as well? While both of you are getting increasingly inflamed and inflammatory, the actual point to this debate - if there is one - seems to be getting lost in the noise. I suggest that you both retreat and attempt to clarify your positions. Dave McG, I don't think MG is actually trolling here. He has, ISTM, a genuine question, which , if I understand it correctly, is "what is so special about mainframes?" And while you are getting increasingly agitated and shouting the odds - and hurling some abuse, too - *you are not actually answering this question.* That, ISTM, is why MG is continuing to bait you. "MG" - you seem now to be comparing mainframes to DEC OpenVMS boxes, is that correct? If so... why? Are you asking why mainframes are still around while DEC's OpenVMS offerings are long gone? Or are you pointing out that, toward the end, OpenVMS boxes morphed into something not unlike high-end PCs and asking why mainframes have not done the same? If I can attempt to answer this... VAXes and their kin - even big ones - were not true mainframes. Mainframes are a different /type/ of computer. There used to be 3 types of computer: mainframes, minicomputers and microcomputers. At the high end, micros blended into the specialised realm of "workstations". (Obviously these are sweeping generalisations here.) Minis have essentially ceased to exist. So have workstations, inasmuch as the difference between micros and workstations was one of scale and spec: workstations were high-power, graphical computers running a multitasking OS, aimed at presenting a rich graphical environment for a single user. All modern micros are essentially workstations; there are no workstations any more. The differential between them was this: * micros run off a microprocessor, a single-chip CPU, and were essentially designed for a single, interactive user * minis ran off CPUs built out of discrete parts - pre-microchip - and were designed to serve a small number of interactive users on terminals * mainframes predate the whole notion of interactive users and aren't really designed to serve interactive, logged-in users at all; instead, they were designed and very heavily optimised for running batch jobs with great efficiency and reliability. Minis and high-end micros in the form of what are now called "servers" have essentially merged. They're not real minis any more - most are just big PCs, i.e., micros; a few, such as IBM's and Oracle's ranges, have evolved out of proprietary RISC workstations, but apart from the different CPU, they are pretty much PCs. They're micros, but with their framebuffers and mouse and keyboard ports shrunk to vestigiality and the emphasis on providing services over the network. They still run microprocessors, though - all the old lines of pre-microprocessor minis are dead. The closest thing is IBM i, AKA AS/400, but today, that's just a different OS running on an IBM System P, i.e., a POWER Server, i.e., an RS/6000. The 2 lines converged years ago. Mainframes are a conceptually different type of computer. They don't have keyboards and mice, obviously, unlike workstations; they don't even support conventional terminals, i.e. dumb terminals running over serial ports. Mainframe terminals were computers in their own right, handling input & redrawing the screen locally - they batched up the users' input and sent it over special cabling systems to the mainframe in chunks. That is historical now, but the point is, mainframes are not interactive computers, and that's why they've survived and that's also why they never mutated into workstations as the VAX and Alpha did. What is so peculiar about them? Various things. * Specialist OSs, so that, for instance, unlike with PC or Unix virtualisation, the hypervisor OS is nothing but a hypervisor, whereas the guest often depends on a hypervisor for its function - some guest OSs don't even have things like networking or filesystems, because the host provides this. Sounds weird but it's tens to hundreds of times more efficient than the PC model. * Everything is offloaded. These systems have multiple processors, sure, like a high-end server, but they have lots of different types of processor. Some do computation, some do encryption, some manage databases, some just do indexing, some just handle various different types of I/O. PC servers cannot even come close to this, but the PC's efforts at comparing are things like machines with TCP/IP offload engines in their network cards, stacks of dozens of GPGPU cards for number crunching, and *in the same case as the PC* both NAS storage and SAN storage, talking iSCSI to some devices, Fibrechannel to others, SMB to others, NFS to others - all inside a single system, using whatever is more appropriate for each workload. Smart dedicated sub-computers running each type of storage, so that the "main" processor doesn't do /any/ of this for itself; it /only/ runs the all-important batch workloads. The result is scalability and reliability that no network of x86 boxes running VMware can even get close to touching yet. Machines which have /no/ single point of failure - multiple processors, memory buses, system buses, disk controllers, network controllers, any of which can be started and stopped independently, so that bits of a machine can be shut down and replaced or upgraded while the rest of the machine is still running at 100% load, flat out, handling mission-critical workloads. Imagine a whole server room, hell, a whole datacentre, with hundreds of independent servers - some running Windows, some Linux, some Solaris, some Netapp Filers, some dedicated SQL servers, all in a single rack, managed as a single instance, with 100% compatibility and all the components, from the processor chips to the disk drives to the network cards to all the OSs, all coming from a single vendor, all optimised for handling big server workloads with /better than/ 99.999% availability. That is why people still buy (or more to the point, rent) mainframes. Because when it comes to the point when you are going to have to spec an entire datacentre, hire a whole team of experts to integrate it all, and spent a few million a year running it, then in some cases, it makes good financial sense to just lease a single box from IBM which does all of this in one fridge-sized cabinet that sits there and just works. No integration, no management, software compatibility that goes back to whole decades before the 8086 was invented in 1978 or whatever, all guaranteed and backed up by the most solid, high-quality SLA that has ever existed in the IT industry. If your workloads start small and grow, and are based around PC software running on x86, this all sounds irrelevant. It's cheaper to use a rack full of cheap x86 kit. If you need lots of racks, these days, buy the time off some cloud vendor. If you are an international company with many hundreds of millions of customers, and everything you run is bespoke and hand-coded for you, and you don't give a flying toss what it runs on but it *ABOSLUTELY MUST* stay running for years on end, then actually, a mainframe makes much more sense. What IBM did in the last decade or so is realise that this honking great boxes can run Linux in one of their virtualization partitions just as well as they can run weird proprietary IBM OSs. And if you run Linux in that VM, then you get all the PC-type stuff that mainframes don't do terribly well for free - TCP/IP, HTTP, all that sort of stuff. But the scalability of a mainframe means that whereas on a very well-specced x86 server, you can run dozens of VMs, maybe even a hundred plus if you set it up very carefully and throw terabytes of RAM at it, on a bog-standard low-end mainframe, you can run tens of *thousands* of Linux instances all at once - because running lots and lots of similar workloads side-by-side and keeping them all responsive is what mainframes are built to do. I am not talking about a system that is 5? or 10? more scalable. I'm talking about something 50? or 100? more scalable. Not supporting hundreds of users per box, but millions of users per box. Sure, only on certain specialised workloads, not on pure CPU-intensive stuff - but for finance and the like, stuff for which there is code out there that has been in production since the 1960s, a level of maturity that is literally impossible for x86 or Unix products. So yes, huge, relic of a bygone age, cost millions, but absolutely perfect for certain workloads, like a financial reconciliation app that handles billions of dollars' worth of transactions, all day, every day, and which never ever goes down at all ever. But if you want to serve files on a LAN, or run a thousand instances of MariaDB, Perl and Apache running some JSON queries and rendering PHP, no, it's a stupid, ruinously expensive way to do that. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 19:56:40 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 02:56:40 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 2:15, Dave McGuire wrote: > I dunno, I had quite a few of them in my datacenter. They > were very common in my world. Some of them still are. Why, oh why, would anyone want to run an EOL platform? (Other than to keep things up and running.) > As I said, which is quoted below, IN THE 1990s. I was also talking about the present. I know, not your favorite place to be. Sorry about that. > Dropping a quarter mil on a big server isn't usually done via > ads in computer magazines. Are you now denying the existence of such ads? Also, I wouldn't call (e.g.) an AlphaStation 200, Digital Personal WorkStation or something else of (roughly) that proportion a "big server". > Are you under some impression that these machines were intended > for home use by consumers?? I keep forgetting that it's wholly illogical and unreasonable for people to run systems in their small(er) business environments and, /gawd forbid/, at home! You'd be surprised at the amount of things that were ported (think of F/OSS offerings) to VMS by those evil, non-millionaire, scum /little people/ you so dearly despise. > It was no easier nor more difficult than building things on any > other OS. How about now? Keep this also in mind for the below paragraphs. >> Digital/Tru64 UNIX saw quite a bit of usage, especially here. >> Many companies and government agencies ran VMS and Tru64 UNIX, >> but it's sadly all dead now and gone to Windows and Linux. > > ALL of it, huh? *chuckle* Why would anyone want to run an EOL (read: dead) operating system without even a community left? (Thanks to the PAKs not being provided any longer.) Guess what subsequently happened to F/OSS offerings, to make it even less attractive? The only people still running Tru64 UNIX, over here at least, are in the process of moving to emulators and some --- those daring enough --- moving to HP-UX on HP's miracle denialware (better known as IPF, a.k.a. IA-64 or... /Itanic/ by some). > ...for the cheap consumer market, and the idiots... You mean the non-millionaire /little people/? So, who exactly are the "idiots" now? Tru64 UNIX is dead now and it has been for many years. HP didn't even proceed to port off things like TruCluster, AdvFS, etc. to HP-UX, as they promised in the roadmaps at the time (around 2003~'05). > Besides, DEC would *give* you OSF/1 if you bought an > Alpha, in nearly all cases. Once again, you're dead wrong. Oh, right, that's why nearly everything was bolted down with PAKs? (Product Activation Keys, in case you may have perhaps forgotten.) > I didn't work in that world. It was owned by SGI anyway; > Alphas were never a serious player in that world. No, they didn't, but they did make some inroads when it came to raw number crunching; you know, rendering (like I wrote about earlier). Those NT AXP systems supposedly outran some SGI IRIX/MIPS systems at the time. (Note: I'm a huge SGI fan, I also own a good amount of them and still run them, including a close- to-max'ed out quad-processor Tezro.) > Here we go again! So, where is SGI now? Where is (pre-Oracle) Sun now? Where is SCO now? Where is DEC itself now? Where are all those HP-UX, AIX, etc. workstations now? - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 20:12:07 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 21:12:07 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51636AE7.9010600@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 08:56 PM, MG wrote: >> I dunno, I had quite a few of them in my datacenter. They >> were very common in my world. Some of them still are. > > Why, oh why, would anyone want to run an EOL platform? (Other than > to keep things up and running.) Because it works, and because there's (usually) no reason to change. Why are we talking about this? In your world, do salesmens' preferences dictate how well a tool performs a job? I pity your manager. >> As I said, which is quoted below, IN THE 1990s. > > I was also talking about the present. I know, not your favorite > place to be. Sorry about that. Oh, right! This is the mailing list where we all talk about our day jobs, working with cutting-edge equipment. I design ARM-based systems for a living, kid. And if/when that work dries up, I'll probably go work with cutting-edge mainframes. That is unless IBM decides to just stop making them due to your fantastic and much-valued business advice. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 20:13:03 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 21:13:03 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51636B1F.4040301@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 08:35 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Dave McG, I don't think MG is actually trolling here. He has, ISTM, a > genuine question, which , if I understand it correctly, is "what is so > special about mainframes?" And while you are getting increasingly > agitated and shouting the odds - and hurling some abuse, too - *you > are not actually answering this question.* That, ISTM, is why MG is > continuing to bait you. Liam, I appreciate your point of view here, but MG really is just being an ass. He doesn't know very much about what he's talking about, he's found me to be very easy to bait (which I am), and is having fun with it, probably because he REALLY needs to get laid and just can't manage to make it happen. I really need to just be done with it, and make a mental note to beat his ass to a sobbing pulp the next time I'm in his vicinity. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 8 20:16:19 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:16:19 +1200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: >(Liam's explanation on mainframes..) Thank you Liam. To someone like me who knows very little about modern, high-end computing this well-written and understandable piece was very educational. Terry (Tez) From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 20:32:05 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 02:32:05 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 9 April 2013 02:16, Terry Stewart wrote: >>(Liam's explanation on mainframes..) > > Thank you Liam. To someone like me who knows very little about modern, > high-end computing this well-written and understandable piece was very > educational. (!) Gosh. Thanks! You are very welcome! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 20:34:19 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 21:34:19 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <696CB6F5-BCE4-441C-AAE8-9DEF282111F8@gmail.com> On Apr 8, 2013, at 8:56 PM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 2:15, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I dunno, I had quite a few of them in my datacenter. They >> were very common in my world. Some of them still are. > > Why, oh why, would anyone want to run an EOL platform? (Other than > to keep things up and running.) I'm not interested in getting into this, but that's actually not a bad reason to keep running an EOL platform. Ask the steel mill we worked with to replace their old Multibus- based stand controllers; it's a lot cheaper to keep an old system running (especially if it's a very durable design, like a lot of the Alpha boxes and VAXen) than it is to try to replace the system. Especially if something goes wrong when you're trying to replace it. For the record, we only buckled *one* many-thousand-dollar ingot of steel. :-) And that was a bug in their old documentation for the system we had to interface with. - Dave From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 20:40:19 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 03:40:19 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51637183.70007@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 2:35, Liam Proven wrote: > I suggest that you both retreat and attempt to clarify your positions. Feel free to point out where it has been vague and inflammatory, because I don't at all feel addressed by such accusations. > "MG" - you seem now to be comparing mainframes to DEC OpenVMS boxes, > is that correct? To the degree that they're both niche platforms, and nowadays more than they ever were before, yes. Not architecturally. As I already said, I have never even gotten the opportunity to use a mainframe, other than perhaps what one can do through emulation (e.g. through SimH) with various historical offerings. The closest thing to it, the 'quasi-mainframe' as I dared to call it, was the public access AS/400 of Rechenzentrum Kreuznach. The only "i" I have ever seen and used (only as an unprivileged user at that.) > Are you asking why mainframes are still around while DEC's OpenVMS > offerings are long gone? Because VMS is supposedly also alive, like the mainframe. But, at least many VMS people are a bit more honest with themselves on average and show a bit more self-criticism than the average IBM (and especially mainframe) type I've been coming across in the last few years. > Or are you pointing out that, toward the end, OpenVMS boxes morphed > into something not unlike high-end PCs and asking why mainframes > have not done the same? No and I'm not sure how you got this out of all that came by so far. In fact, this was never (from the beginning) VMS' strong point. > VAXes and their kin - even big ones - were not true mainframes. I guess not, but then, the definition of "mainframe" is not one I care tremendously for. I never lost sleep over whether or not they were considered a "mainframe". > There used to be 3 types of computer: mainframes, minicomputers and > microcomputers. At the high end, micros blended into the specialised > realm of "workstations". (Obviously these are sweeping generalisations > here.) This is, of course, a bit of an IBM-dictated 'taxonomy'. I mean, DEC didn't even call its systems "computers" literally at first. (Think of "PDP".) Would that mean a "PDP-11" isn't a computer therefore...? > The differential between them was this: > > * micros run off a microprocessor, a single-chip CPU, and were > essentially designed for a single, interactive user > * minis ran off CPUs built out of discrete parts - pre-microchip - and > were designed to serve a small number of interactive users on > terminals > * mainframes predate the whole notion of interactive users and aren't > really designed to serve interactive, logged-in users at all; instead, > they were designed and very heavily optimised for running batch jobs > with great efficiency and reliability. Yes, I'm aware of the notion and idea of "time sharing". Very ancient stuff though, all in all, to be honest. > Mainframes are a conceptually different type of computer. They don't > have keyboards and mice, obviously, unlike workstations; they don't > even support conventional terminals, i.e. dumb terminals running over > serial ports. I may not have used a mainframe, as I said, but I'm not /that/ unaware about their functioning. Many of these characteristics, like with regard to dumb terminals, are also true for "i" though. At least, I can't think of an "i" (or, AS/400) that would be operated via direct graphics head/frame- buffer interface with a 'keyboard & mouse'; you? > That is historical now, but the point is, mainframes are not > interactive computers, and that's why they've survived and that's > also why they never mutated into workstations as the VAX and Alpha > did. It's funny you should mention that, but they were rather poor for those purposes overall (eventually in the long run). > Various things. > > * Specialist OSs, so that, for instance, unlike with PC or Unix > virtualisation, the hypervisor OS is nothing but a hypervisor, whereas > the guest often depends on a hypervisor for its function - some guest > OSs don't even have things like networking or filesystems, because the > host provides this. Sounds weird but it's tens to hundreds of times > more efficient than the PC model. I'm aware of some of these concepts. Say, isn't this what the FreeBSD "jails" are slowly, but surely, trying to mimic a bit? > * Everything is offloaded. These systems have multiple processors, > sure, like a high-end server, but they have lots of different types of > processor. Some do computation, some do encryption, some manage > databases, some just do indexing, some just handle various different > types of I/O. PC servers cannot even come close to this, but the PC's > efforts at comparing are things like machines with TCP/IP offload > engines in their network cards, stacks of dozens of GPGPU cards for > number crunching, and *in the same case as the PC* both NAS storage > and SAN storage, talking iSCSI to some devices, Fibrechannel to > others, SMB to others, NFS to others - all inside a single system, > using whatever is more appropriate for each workload. Smart dedicated > sub-computers running each type of storage, so that the "main" > processor doesn't do /any/ of this for itself; it /only/ runs the > all-important batch workloads. Like I said, it's a beautiful sounding system, I never doubted that. My main gripe is the 'elitism' that IBM seems to instill and (like also someone else admitted) seems to artificially keep alive. It also --- well, to me anyway --- gives the impression that it's more of a money making scheme (the 'exclusivity', so to speak) than a sound future-proof treatment. > Imagine a whole server room, hell, a whole datacentre, with hundreds > of independent servers - some running Windows, some Linux, some > Solaris, some Netapp Filers, some dedicated SQL servers, all in a > single rack, managed as a single instance, with 100% compatibility and > all the components, from the processor chips to the disk drives to the > network cards to all the OSs, all coming from a single vendor, all > optimised for handling big server workloads with /better than/ 99.999% > availability. I've never seen official performance statistics, just IBM's own figures. So, I can't comment on how it truly behaves in this regard. > That is why people still buy (or more to the point, rent) mainframes. There is a generation, I'm even willing to bet several generations, that grew up with nothing other than Windows and Linux. Some young enough have never even experienced nor seen/heard an IBM PC, let alone the term "IBM PC". Why is this important? Because IBM itself, the company, is also falling further into obscurity like this, along with "z". Will banks continue to run "z"? I guess some will, but I also read about NonStop and, not surprisingly, the ever encroaching Linux and even Windows. Then there's also the question of the current and upcoming generations, freshly indoctrinated with notions of "the cloud" and what-not: How "cloud-ready" is "z"? And to what degree would they prefer "z" over some Dell or 'brandless' x86 or even ARM (those seem to be coming, too, now) server? > Because when it comes to the point when you are going to have to spec > an entire datacentre, hire a whole team of experts to integrate it > all, and spent a few million a year running it, then in some cases, it > makes good financial sense to just lease a single box from IBM which > does all of this in one fridge-sized cabinet that sits there and just > works. No integration, no management, software compatibility that goes > back to whole decades before the 8086 was invented in 1978 or > whatever, all guaranteed and backed up by the most solid, high-quality > SLA that has ever existed in the IT industry. Like I wrote before, in the case of the "GAMEframe" setup by that Brazilian company Hoplon, they wrote they had to offload to "Cell" processor 'blades'; because otherwise it'd 'tax the "z" too much'. When I thus read such things, I become somewhat doubtful of such claims. It doesn't also help that IBM has made it so relegated and secluded to themselves and their direct customers, that the inquiring minds have little insight into these (and hopefully truthful?) types of performance benchmarks and figures... > What IBM did in the last decade or so is realise that this honking > great boxes can run Linux in one of their virtualization partitions > just as well as they can run weird proprietary IBM OSs. And if you run > Linux in that VM, then you get all the PC-type stuff that mainframes > don't do terribly well for free - TCP/IP, HTTP, all that sort of > stuff. How does this work in combination with the "time sharing" operating principles, though? Please bear with me, as I don't have any direct experience myself. > But the scalability of a mainframe means that whereas on a very > well-specced x86 server, you can run dozens of VMs, maybe even a > hundred plus if you set it up very carefully and throw terabytes of > RAM at it, on a bog-standard low-end mainframe, you can run tens of > *thousands* of Linux instances all at once - because running lots and > lots of similar workloads side-by-side and keeping them all responsive > is what mainframes are built to do. Though, with terabytes of RAM, I think many other platforms would also fare well... > I am not talking about a system that is 5? or 10? more scalable. > I'm talking about something 50? or 100? more scalable. Not > supporting hundreds of users per box, but millions of users per > box. Why isn't IBM more eager to speak of this and show the world what "z" is truly capable of? Why isn't YouTube loaded with videos showing these kind of things of, to name something? I really don't get it, such a capable platform (I'm told), but absolutely no desire to expand and increase its user/install base? > Sure, only on certain specialised workloads, not on pure CPU-intensive > stuff - but for finance and the like, stuff for which there is code > out there that has been in production since the 1960s, a level of > maturity that is literally impossible for x86 or Unix products. I guess that's another reason why the "GAMEframe" used those "Cell" processor 'blades'? > But if you want to serve files on a LAN, or run a thousand instances > of MariaDB, Perl and Apache running some JSON queries and rendering > PHP, no, it's a stupid, ruinously expensive way to do that. I'll gladly take your word for it, it sounds like you have more experience with mainframes than I do. But, what are your predictions for the future? I mean, it's exactly these things that are ever-expanding and becoming more and more common nowadays, aren't they? - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 20:56:06 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 03:56:06 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51636AE7.9010600@neurotica.com> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <51636AE7.9010600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51637536.4010703@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 3:12, Dave McGuire wrote: > Because it works, and because there's (usually) no reason to change. > Why are we talking about this? Because it doesn't work and there are tons of reasons to change. Again, this is for the most part again an observation. > In your world, do salesmens' preferences dictate how well a tool > performs a job? I pity your manager. You assume too much. > Oh, right! This is the mailing list where we all talk about our > day jobs, working with cutting-edge equipment. I seem to remember you brought these things up. In fact, I still run Tru64 UNIX here, but I don't pretend to run anything seriously. (No way in hell that I'd ever expose a Tru64 UNIX system directly to the 'net either, to name something else.) > I design ARM-based systems for a living, kid. Do you swear against yourself, by any chance? I mean, you're conspiring with the /debbil/ now, right? > And if/when that work dries up, I'll probably go work with > cutting-edge mainframes. You never answered where I asked why you turned that job opportunity down. So yes, definitely your second choice. > That is unless IBM decides to just stop making them due to > your fantastic and much-valued business advice. I'm an idiot /little person/, remember? And I lack the millions/billions in cash, to pay for the kind of acoustics that will be audible by IBM... - MG From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 8 21:00:37 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:00:37 -0400 Subject: Core vs MOS RAM latencies - Re: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5162EB35.20600@sydex.com> References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> <5162EB35.20600@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51637645.106@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/04/13 12:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/07/2013 03:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> That's odd, I seem to recall my handbooks claiming lower latencies for >> (Unibus?) core than the MOS products in the same range, but don't have >> the right handbook to, uh, hand. > > I don't know from UNIBUS, but the CDC 7600 used 270 nsec core, which, in > 1969 was much faster than MOS. ... Bitsavers has an 11/40 system manual which lists some timings for Unibus core: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1140/1140_SystemManual.pdf (4th printing, January 1975) "MF11-U/UP Memory is a read/write, random access coincident current, magnetic core type with a maximum cycle time of 980ns and a maximum access time of 425ns." However, there is no MOS memory listed for comparison. According to its system manual, the 11/34 (of which I own a couple) supports either core (MM11-CP or MM11-DP) or MOS (MS11-EP, MS11-FP, MS11-JP). I found the MM11-E core memory manual: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/memory/MM11-E_CoreMemoryManual.pdf "cycle time is 1.2?s and access time is 500ns" According to the MS11-M MOS memory user guide, http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1144/EK-MS11M-UG-001_UsersMan_May79.pdf (May 1979) DATI/DATIP (Memory) Typ. Access time 490ns; Typ. Cycle time 450ns A later document, MS11-P MOS Memory Technical Manual, Oct 1982, gives 490ns and 680ns for typical access and cycle times (DATI). Not very conclusive... It seems that some core models were slightly faster than some MOS models and vice versa. --Toby > > The "exchange jump" on the upper CDC systems (6000 and 7000) used a > read-modify-write cycle to swap the contents of the registers with an > area in memory. It was the fastest way to save and reload the enire > register set (using non-privileged instructions was far more > time-consuming, due to an odd trick used to save and restore the first > register of a set--often used as a quiz to new programmers). > > --Chuck > > > From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 21:00:56 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 04:00:56 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51636B1F.4040301@neurotica.com> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51636B1F.4040301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51637658.6020506@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 3:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > Liam, I appreciate your point of view here, but MG really is > just being an ass. He doesn't know very much about what he's > talking about, he's found me to be very easy to bait (which I am), > and is having fun with it, probably because he REALLY needs to get > laid and just can't manage to make it happen. ... to understand the greatness of IBM? (Or how is the above supposed to translate.) You're not really making this very easy for me either. > I really need to just be done with it, and make a mental note > to beat his ass to a sobbing pulp the next time I'm in his vicinity. Now now, is that a threat I'm reading here? Not very nice of you. - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 21:04:20 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:04:20 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51637536.4010703@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <51636AE7.9010600@neurotica.com> <51637536.4010703@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51637724.60101@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 09:56 PM, MG wrote: >> Because it works, and because there's (usually) no reason to change. >> Why are we talking about this? > > Because it doesn't work and there are tons of reasons to change. Wrong. > Again, this is for the most part again an observation. You might consider taking some info from people who have actually DONE this in the real world. People have spoken up, and you're not listening. >> I design ARM-based systems for a living, kid. > > Do you swear against yourself, by any chance? I mean, you're > conspiring with the /debbil/ now, right? Huh? You've totally lost your mind. >> And if/when that work dries up, I'll probably go work with >> cutting-edge mainframes. > > You never answered where I asked why you turned that job > opportunity down. So yes, definitely your second choice. Yes it is. I enjoy hardware and firmware design more than I enjoy outright app programming. Not that it's any of your business. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 21:05:25 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 04:05:25 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <696CB6F5-BCE4-441C-AAE8-9DEF282111F8@gmail.com> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <696CB6F5-BCE4-441C-AAE8-9DEF282111F8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51637765.2060008@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 3:34, David Riley wrote: > I'm not interested in getting into this, but that's actually > not a bad reason to keep running an EOL platform. Often there's little choice, especially for certain platform- dependent applications. I can understand why process control systems wouldn't need to be swapped out, especially if they're nicely kept away from the internet. Then, I guess, little could go wrong. (Also conveniently lacking things like USB, in that regard.) - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 21:24:50 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:24:50 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51637658.6020506@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51636B1F.4040301@neurotica.com> <51637658.6020506@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51637BF2.50807@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 10:00 PM, MG wrote: >> Liam, I appreciate your point of view here, but MG really is >> just being an ass. He doesn't know very much about what he's >> talking about, he's found me to be very easy to bait (which I am), >> and is having fun with it, probably because he REALLY needs to get >> laid and just can't manage to make it happen. > > ... to understand the greatness of IBM? (Or how is the above > supposed to translate.) No, to solve Your Problem. Understanding that IBM's mainframe business is doing fine, you'll have to learn a thing or two, starting with how to accept the possibility that there are things going on in the industry that you're not privy to or that you don't understand. > You're not really making this very easy for me either. You have a VERY easy time of things. You do anything the salespeople tell you to do, and sit behind the safety of the keyboard and rile people up. I'm sitting here getting work done, despite your ridiculous interruptions (which is a miracle, mind you, because you're really quite good at it...there's gotta be something I guess) while you seem to have nothing at all to do but piss in peoples' pools. >> I really need to just be done with it, and make a mental note >> to beat his ass to a sobbing pulp the next time I'm in his vicinity. > > Now now, is that a threat I'm reading here? Not very nice of you. No, you childish loon, I'm not going to hop on a plane to Europe and beat your ass. Though you sorely need it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 22:00:39 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 04:00:39 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51637183.70007@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51637183.70007@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 9 April 2013 02:40, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 2:35, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> I suggest that you both retreat and attempt to clarify your positions. > > Feel free to point out where it has been vague and inflammatory, > because I don't at all feel addressed by such accusations. Life's too short. It's 3AM here & I'm just doing this while waiting for a VM to update. You know how it is. >> "MG" - you seem now to be comparing mainframes to DEC OpenVMS boxes, >> is that correct? > > To the degree that they're both niche platforms, and nowadays more > than they ever were before, yes. Not architecturally. OK. > As I already said, I have never even gotten the opportunity to use > a mainframe, other than perhaps what one can do through emulation > (e.g. through SimH) with various historical offerings. Well, TBH, nor I. I suppose the only difference is that I've done a lot of research & reading on big iron - partly for a white paper I wrote about them for IBM years & years ago. (I am more of a tech writer than a techie these days; you can find a booklet about virtualization by me on Amazon, if you're curious.) > The closest thing to it, the 'quasi-mainframe' as I dared to call > it, was the public access AS/400 of Rechenzentrum Kreuznach. The > only "i" I have ever seen and used (only as an unprivileged user > at that.) I've done a *tiny* bit of maintenance/admin work on AS/400 and System/36. >> Are you asking why mainframes are still around while DEC's OpenVMS >> offerings are long gone? > > Because VMS is supposedly also alive, like the mainframe. But, > at least many VMS people are a bit more honest with themselves > on average and show a bit more self-criticism than the average > IBM (and especially mainframe) type I've been coming across in > the last few years. VMS? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Also, industry-leading clustering. Even now, no other OS can come remotely close. Leading to ridiculous uptimes and so on: take individual nodes of a cluster offline, upgrade them, rejoin, and thus upgrade or even replace an entire server farm with 100% uptime. >> Or are you pointing out that, toward the end, OpenVMS boxes morphed >> into something not unlike high-end PCs and asking why mainframes >> have not done the same? > > No and I'm not sure how you got this out of all that came by so > far. In fact, this was never (from the beginning) VMS' strong > point. I quote: ?I've seen smaller form factor IBM mainframes before, like recently in a YouTube video. Also, whatever prevented IBM from creating more and even more compact mainframes? Like I asked before: What the hell is it with this disturbing 'elitism', 'mainframe royalty'? That of all people, the most republican bunch on this planet (Americans) are defending this goes beyond me...? That seems to me to be essentially asking why we never got miniature, PC-size mainframes. There /were/ PC-size mainframes, back in the day. http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/ibm-5364-s36-pc But in the end, IBM seems to have realised that its revenues came from the big expensive boxes and stopped trying to make little cheap ones. Smart move. >> VAXes and their kin - even big ones - were not true mainframes. > > > I guess not, but then, the definition of "mainframe" is not one > I care tremendously for. I never lost sleep over whether or not > they were considered a "mainframe". At the end of the day, it's more a functional than a systematic definition, I think. >> There used to be 3 types of computer: mainframes, minicomputers and >> microcomputers. At the high end, micros blended into the specialised >> realm of "workstations". (Obviously these are sweeping generalisations >> here.) > > > This is, of course, a bit of an IBM-dictated 'taxonomy'. I mean, > DEC didn't even call its systems "computers" literally at first. > (Think of "PDP".) > > Would that mean a "PDP-11" isn't a computer therefore...? OK, I get the hint. I had no real idea of your level of historical knowledge; you've been too busy sparring with Mr McGuire. > Yes, I'm aware of the notion and idea of "time sharing". Very ancient > stuff though, all in all, to be honest. Not really, no. In essence, modern distributed virtualised datacentres are reinventing, just breathtakingly inelegantly and inefficiently. > I may not have used a mainframe, as I said, but I'm not /that/ unaware > about their functioning. OK. > Many of these characteristics, like with regard to dumb terminals, > are also true for "i" though. At least, I can't think of an "i" > (or, AS/400) that would be operated via direct graphics head/frame- > buffer interface with a 'keyboard & mouse'; you? Well, AS/400 was the last ever new mini, essentially, and it was designed to fit into the existing "ecosystem" of IBM kit: peripherals, terminals, cabling, etc. So it's a weird sort of mini that instead of using RS232 or Ethernet, used IBM 3250 or 5250 (or whatever) terminals via SDLC over Twinax or TokenRing, etc. >> That is historical now, but the point is, mainframes are not >> interactive computers, and that's why they've survived and that's >> also why they never mutated into workstations as the VAX and Alpha >> did. > > It's funny you should mention that, but they were rather poor for > those purposes overall (eventually in the long run). I am not sure what "they" and "those purposes" refer to here. I am not going to guess. The point being that after a while flirting with newfangled ideas like interactive sessions on terminals, mainframes have retreated back to their core strengths, as it were. > I'm aware of some of these concepts. Say, isn't this what the FreeBSD > "jails" are slowly, but surely, trying to mimic a bit? In a way, yes. Conceptually different, but in some ways broadly comparable in effect. But imagine someone building a Linux distro that ran under VMware and had no disk drivers, no filesystem, no display - it /only/ ran by storing files directly in the VMware filesystem, was only accessible via a remote session over the network, etc. You could in principle really pare it right down by not actually having any code to talk to keyboards, mice, displays, any I/O at all except the network, and so on. Some of the IBM guest OSs are like that. Some are more stripped down still and are not OSs as such at all - just, say, an RDBMS or a transaction monitor that runs directly on a bare VM. Whereas with the x86 way of doing things, you have a whole OS, gigs of it, running VMs, inside which it software-emulates a whole PC, and on that runs /another/ whole OS, emulating files in its emulated filesystem on its emulated hard disk on its emulated hard disk controller, displaying pixels on its emulated screen on its emulated graphics card on an emulated PCI bus attached to an emulated CPU - it's horrifically inelegant: layers and layers and layers of duplicated code, 90% of it completely unnecessary, running imaginary tasks on imaginary hardware, because every layer thinks it's on bare metal. And yes, I know about ESXi and so on. VMware are scam artists. The old server ran a whole copy of Red Hat Linux; their precious VMkernel was just a Linux kernel module. Now they've cut that right down and essentially boot the kernel off a bootloader, but it's still an OS. Compare with IBM Series P, where the firmware can create and destroy VMs. The (equivalent of a) BIOS does virtualisation... and the OS, too, if you want it. In several forms. The PC version is a bodge on a bodge on a bodge. >> * Everything is offloaded. These systems have multiple processors, >> sure, like a high-end server, but they have lots of different types of >> processor. Some do computation, some do encryption, some manage >> databases, some just do indexing, some just handle various different >> types of I/O. PC servers cannot even come close to this, but the PC's >> efforts at comparing are things like machines with TCP/IP offload >> engines in their network cards, stacks of dozens of GPGPU cards for >> number crunching, and *in the same case as the PC* both NAS storage >> and SAN storage, talking iSCSI to some devices, Fibrechannel to >> others, SMB to others, NFS to others - all inside a single system, >> using whatever is more appropriate for each workload. Smart dedicated >> sub-computers running each type of storage, so that the "main" >> processor doesn't do /any/ of this for itself; it /only/ runs the >> all-important batch workloads. > > Like I said, it's a beautiful sounding system, I never doubted that. > > My main gripe is the 'elitism' that IBM seems to instill and (like > also someone else admitted) seems to artificially keep alive. [Shrug] It's a niche and a marginal one. It will probably die in time. For now, they are preserving it by killing off the once-thriving compatible-hardware industry - there used to be loads of IBM-compatible kit and software. All gone now except for the original. Also, by making it expensive, because what it is good at is something only a certain type of business wants. I gather it came as a bit of a surprise to IBM when the Linux kernel was ported onto the mainframe CPU, and more so when a couple of companies started selling boxed distros. IBM's response, continuing to anthropomorphise like hell, was to shrug and say "OK, then" and permit it - after initially trying to shut it down. Then it came up with a special mode of its main hypervisor OS that could only run Linux VMs - but was really cheap. Originally, the idea was that you could run a Linux session and have it serve out your mainframe data over those nasty cheap plasticky PC standards ;) and it was cheaper than buying a licence for the IBM mainframe web server, etc. This did well, so it came up with a special edition of the whole OS that only hosted Linux, no other OS - and again was really cheap. Rather to its surprise, IBM mainframe sales have been doing really well in the last decade, and Linux hosting is driving adoption. My impression is that it was amazed but it is a flexible company and it's rolled with it. If people want to buy zSeries to run shedloads of Linux sessions on, hey, IBM is happy to oblige. Bear in mind, though, that in C21, IBM probably considers shifting a dozen units to be a major sales spike. If it's selling hundreds, I'd be amazed. But then, HP's entire Itanium server range has survived for a decade or more on total sales of just single-digit thousands of units. (I've seen some figures. May not be accurate. But I've heard numbers of 3000-odd units, *in total*. Yes really.) (Aside: you mentioned Cell. A similar scandal, effectively hushed-up, was how broken Cell was. The access times for Cell to its local RAM were in kB/sec. Yes really. Not meg, not gig.) > It also --- well, to me anyway --- gives the impression that it's > more of a money making scheme (the 'exclusivity', so to speak) > than a sound future-proof treatment. I think your bias is overwhelming you, TBH. Yes, IBM is selling exclusivity etc., but there is more to the story than that. > I've never seen official performance statistics, just IBM's own > figures. So, I can't comment on how it truly behaves in this > regard. It's like Rolls Royce. "Power: adequate" is all they used to say. If you need to ask, you're not in the target market. > There is a generation, I'm even willing to bet several generations, > that grew up with nothing other than Windows and Linux. Some young > enough have never even experienced nor seen/heard an IBM PC, let > alone the term "IBM PC". Indeed. > Why is this important? Because IBM itself, the company, is also > falling further into obscurity like this, along with "z". Yup. > Will banks continue to run "z"? I guess some will, but I also > read about NonStop and, not surprisingly, the ever encroaching > Linux and even Windows. > > Then there's also the question of the current and upcoming > generations, freshly indoctrinated with notions of "the cloud" > and what-not: How "cloud-ready" is "z"? And to what degree > would they prefer "z" over some Dell or 'brandless' x86 or even > ARM (those seem to be coming, too, now) server? My personal take on it, at 45 after 25y in IT, is that, for the main part, C21 IT is run by clueless idiots and we have got to a lowest-common-denominator, cheap'n'nasty sort of plateau. It's why I want out. Someone or something will disrupt it in time. > Like I wrote before, in the case of the "GAMEframe" setup by that > Brazilian company Hoplon, they wrote they had to offload to "Cell" > processor 'blades'; because otherwise it'd 'tax the "z" too much'. Bear in mind, you pay for CPU bandwidth. It's a metered commodity. Less load = less fees. It's not overstretching the machine, it's overstretching the bank balance. IBM kit the boxes with loads of CPUs and then turn most of 'em off. You pay for 'em when you need 'em and they're remotely enabled. This kind of stunt. Ugly, kinda stinks, but these are not highly price-sensitive performance-sensitive markets. Also, people confuse performance with responsiveness, system size with scalability, etc. There used to be commercial Unix mail server programs that could cheerfully host 30,000 users on a box with a few hundred meg of RAM. Now, people run Hosted Exchange and spawn hundreds of new server instances because the crappy broken software can only handle 1-2 hundred users per box. This is not real scalability; it is using the cheapness of commodity COTS hardware to hide profound scalability problems. Also see, responsiveness vs. performance. E.g. Win7. It's not faster than Vista. It's marginally slower than Vista. But it /feels/ faster because it's been tuned for UI responsiveness. Said responsiveness is still utter crap - BeOS on a Pentium/90 was vastly more responsive in 1998 or so. But it's dead, because it was a niche product and Windows was Good Enough. > When I thus read such things, I become somewhat doubtful of such > claims. It doesn't also help that IBM has made it so relegated > and secluded to themselves and their direct customers, that the > inquiring minds have little insight into these (and hopefully > truthful?) types of performance benchmarks and figures... If you compare a machine with 4 CPUs of a single kind with one with 368 different CPUs of 27 different types, all running different OSes, how do you compare performance? If you just pick one - say the GP arithmetic-logic engine - then the big box will look like utter crap by comparison. Its expensive chips are slower. But its real power is that it has 3581^23 different dedicated processors doing all these different things in different chunks of different types of memory, all at once, and thus can run for years on end at 100% utilisation while preserving the same response time as with 1 task at 1% use. Even TPC measures will be misleading in this sort of scenario, so, IBM avoids benchmarks as much as possible. > How does this work in combination with the "time sharing" operating > principles, though? Please bear with me, as I don't have any > direct experience myself. I have virtually none myself. I freely admit - this is all theoretical, paper knowledge from extensive reading, some of confidential IBM info. Nothing more. It works well when you have something like a multi-tier client-server model, when the server can be offloaded to one of these big engines. Maybe you even have 2 or 3 layers of other server between you and the back end, but eventually, there comes a point where you absolutely positively have to **KNOW** that at the same time as ?42.60 being debited from Mrs Q Smith's account, it was also debiting exactly ?543,432,573,759.43? in riyals from Royal Dutch Shell's account and crediting it to HRH R Saud of Mecca, and both *WILL* go through even if a bomb goes off next door. > Though, with terabytes of RAM, I think many other platforms would > also fare well... Bolt a big enough engine on it, a barn door will fly. > Why isn't IBM more eager to speak of this and show the world what > "z" is truly capable of? Why isn't YouTube loaded with videos > showing these kind of things of, to name something? It's tried. It tried years ago. Have you *looked?* http://www.youtube.com/user/IBMSystemZ It's there. I guess it's stopped shouting about it 'cos word-of-mouth sales were doing just fine. I remember the era when every British computer mag had IBM ads in. Now they're gone. The ads and the mags. > I really don't get it, such a capable platform (I'm told), but > absolutely no desire to expand and increase its user/install > base? It is expanding faster than it's done in years, I believe. Mainly on Linux workloads. You don't see it - but I may as well paraphrase Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman: "It might, or might not, have helped Anathema get a clear view of things if she'd been allowed to spot the very obvious reason why she couldn't see Adam's aura. "It was for the same reason that people in Trafalgar Square can't see England." It's there but they are not playing in the market where people care what brand of tin they are buying. If you even need to ask what kind of server to run, or whether to run Windows Server 2012 with Hyper-V 3 versus vSphere Hypervisor, then you're not a potential customer. So there is absolutely no point advertising. Anyone who notices ads is not a potential customer. These guys make sales by taking the finance director for a weekend in Monte Carlo during the 24H and quietly mentioning possible deals between courses at dinner. > I guess that's another reason why the "GAMEframe" used those > "Cell" processor 'blades'? See billing, above. >> But if you want to serve files on a LAN, or run a thousand instances >> of MariaDB, Perl and Apache running some JSON queries and rendering >> PHP, no, it's a stupid, ruinously expensive way to do that. > > I'll gladly take your word for it, it sounds like you have more > experience with mainframes than I do. Very little - but I know what they're good for, even if I don't swim in the kind of waters where these whales lurk. I'm a minnow. > But, what are your predictions for the future? I mean, it's exactly > these things that are ever-expanding and becoming more and more > common nowadays, aren't they? My predictions? Big picture? We are in the grip of the "worse is better" (q.v.) school and have been since Unix was invented. But Moore's Law has stopped buying us more CPU power. Now Koomey's Law (q.v.) holds. Worse is Better, I think, will run out of steam. The MIT school will finally prevail. Wheels will get reinvented but some old powers may yet rise from the grave. I think we might see some old /styles/ of tech re-invented, but in new forms, free from restrictive patents and copyrights. I think the whole era of Unix-like OSs written in C-like languages and compiled down to object files will go away and something distantly related to Lisp Machines, or Taos/Intent Elate or something similarly radical like that, will take over. But like the French Revolution, it's too soon to tell. (q.v.) Some further reading: http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/33746.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 8 22:22:44 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 23:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ??? The Register In-Reply-To: <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <201304090322.XAA23715@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Why, oh why, would anyone want to run an EOL platform? (Other than > to keep things up and running.) Why would anyone want to run _any_ computer other than to keep things up and running? But there actually are multiple answers to that question. Here are a few that occur to me offhand: - To keep an existing system running, as you mentioned. - Emotional attachments (to the hardware, to the software, whatever). - Interfacing to otherwise useless hardware (today, this might mean Qbus or Sbus; AIUI everything using either is EOLed or worse now). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From xmechanic at landcomp.net Mon Apr 8 22:42:33 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 21:42:33 -0600 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: <024601ce3490$abd96850$038c38f0$@com> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <024601ce3490$abd96850$038c38f0$@com> Message-ID: <51638E29.800@landcomp.net> On 4/8/13 1:38 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 2:00 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 > > Does anybody know anything about this machine? > > Not even a keyboard or monitor port on it! > > Pics are here: > https://plus.google.com/photos/106111250846948401252/albums/5864544551344799 > 681?banner=pwa > > Just had a VERY nice conversation with Tom from Intergraph tech support. > Needless to say, this has been obsolete for many years. It was a plotter > server, ran Clix (proprietary version of Unix), the largest hdd it would > take was a 600mb 68-pin SCSI. It does have a 360kb floppy. Communication > is through the RS-232 port in VT-220 mode only. > > IF he can find the keys, software, and docs for this old beast, he will > email me back. > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6232 - Release Date: 04/08/13 > > > Would be interesting to see if it still works. Hope that guy can score some software for you. ;) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Mon Apr 8 23:28:42 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 21:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer In-Reply-To: <1365481598.86218.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1365481598.86218.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1365481722.72487.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I am looking for a daisy wheel printer to buy I know I need one with a parallel/ Centronics port but what else should I get? ?--- ?tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" ?Child of the Internet born 1983 ?PGP DA98 A195 06AD 1330 7EB0??50C3 724C 9974 A7EF 6006 ?Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - ?http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html ?Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 23:48:50 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 23:48:50 -0500 Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <8D00211E0B25C86-828-252B4@webmail-m263.sysops.aol.com> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> <8D00211E0B25C86-828-252B4@webmail-m263.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: could allways have a store thats got a computer musuem taged on the side of it From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 9 00:07:10 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:07:10 -0700 Subject: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer In-Reply-To: <1365481722.72487.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1365481598.86218.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1365481722.72487.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5163A1FE.5030508@sydex.com> On 04/08/2013 09:28 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: > I am looking for a daisy wheel printer to buy > > I know I need one with a parallel/ Centronics port > but what else should I get? Typewheels and ribbons (especially!). Some DW printers were configured for tractor feed only--so you'd need forms for that. Too bad you're an ocean away--I've got a couple here. But they're heavy to ship. --Chuck From g-wright at att.net Tue Apr 9 00:59:43 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 22:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: William Donzelli To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, April 8, 2013 2:38:47 PM Subject: Re: IntergraphInterserve 200 > I wish there was an Intergraphwiki or short summary of models with > specs. Maybe I would even choose what I would like to want, if any. Intergraphs are the great forgotten workstations using the great forget microprocessor. But then, Intergraph has been complete dicks about being hobbyist friendly. -- Will They did have a closed door policy to everyone except those with deep pockets and a need for their software. Some of the their workstations where Sun SPARC's and later they built their own Intel based desk top systems. These where very nice systems. Had all for the latest Video, SCSI, Dual Processors, at that time. They ran NT with their software. I still have 2 running at work. They will probably out live me. (None with their software) TD-30 and TDZ-300. The latter is a Dual Pentium PRO. - Jerry From uridium at deviate.fi Mon Apr 8 18:11:09 2013 From: uridium at deviate.fi (..I'd rather be coding ASM!) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 02:11:09 +0300 (EEST) Subject: [N8VEM: 15818] XT-IDE V2 PCBs available In-Reply-To: <000301ce33b9$b70c8360$25258a20$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000301ce33b9$b70c8360$25258a20$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: Hi Andrew, I'm interested in a couple please. One for the Xi8088 and one for my NEC PC4i. I apologise if this has been answered recently (I've really been out of things shifting around all of my storage the last couple of months), but, the 12/5v molex plug that says "MAX 30W" .. is this a power header to run hard disks dragging power through the ISA backplane upto 30 watts? Thanks for your time! Best Wishes, Al. -- -- Al Boyanich adb -w -P "world> " -k /dev/meta/galaxy/ksyms /dev/god/brain From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Apr 9 01:53:23 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 08:53:23 +0200 Subject: TSZ07 PSU P/N 29-28461-01 Schematics? Message-ID: <20130409065323.GA35161@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi there, has someone a technical documentation for the PSU of the TSZ07 9 Track tape drive? My PSU is working but some parts are overheating when the drive is in standby mode where no FAN is running. In the technical manual for the TSZ07 from manx for example are no details, only the replacement procedure is described. .. or has anyone one to sell for small money (prefered in europe because of the shipping costs..) There are shopts that want to sell HP/Compaq/DEC 29-28461-01 fpr $200 and more... thats to much. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Apr 9 02:20:39 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 08:20:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: <5161BBC6.3080603@pico-systems.com> References: <5161BBC6.3080603@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1365492039.97770.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hello there, Jon and Colin, thanks for the shared discussion on an alternative way to align the heads by using a tape prepared with another aligned tape drive. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of the schematics of the Fujitsu M2442AC/M2444AC tape drives being somewhere accessible - at least, I never found or saw them. So I would have to dig through the PCB be with the read amplifiers to find the approriate head signals to observe them with a scope. That's for sure possible, but easier with schematics. By the way, is anybody aware of schematics ever published by Fujitsu for the hard drives or tape drives? They never seemed to be part of their manuals. The only exception I saw so far was the M2435 tape drive labeled as Unisys BT3200 drives. I did put these schematics on bitsavers a couple of years ago. Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ >________________________________ > Von: Jon Elson >An: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Gesendet: 20:32 Sonntag, 7.April 2013 >Betreff: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment > >Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:13:42 +0100 >From: Colin Eby >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >??? >Subject: Re: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > >? Jon, > >? First, lemme reassert my non-expert status on this. > >? However, my understanding of PE -- phase encoding as a raw signal -- >? is that a 0 is a low to high transition(Thomas or reversed high to >? low for IEEE) against a fixed clock time. Successive 0s have to be >? encoded taking the sign low to high, before going high to low again. >? The system is to ignore those signals and simply count the >? transition at the mid-point of the period. Setting the blocking >? aside, doesn't that mean you end up with two transitions in a period >? for every zero. And if you write zero to every channel you get a >? nice sine wave at the pre-amp, with the parity bit being the inverse >? signal (all ones). > > >? NZRI would of course be rather different. But for PE, this is my >? understand of the signal inside a block. I believe that's the signal >? form you were thinking of. > >OH, you meant to write the tape in 1600 BPI (PE) mode!? yes, that would put 3200 >transitions per inch on all data channels, but the parity channel would have its >transitions out of phase with the data channels.? PE mode will write two >transitions for every bit time when the same bit (1 or zero) is written, >but for alternating 1's and zeros, you only get one transition per bit time. >The polarity of the transition at the center of the bit time contains the data >bit, and additional transition needs to be added when the same data bit >follows.? See Page 4-11 of this doc for a picture : > > > >Generally, skew is not worried about so much in PE mode, the drives have >FIFOs to resync the data.? But, of course after repairing the head mounting, it >could be WAY off, too far for the FIFO to correct.? They usually only have >9 bit times worth of skew correction. > >Anyway, most older 800 BPI drives have circuitry built-in to assist in skew adjustment, >an analog summing circuit that adds the output of the 9 bit detectors together. >The stepped square wave is very easy to interpret and adjust on a scope. >I've never done skew adjustment on 1600 or 6250, I think it would be >harder than on 800 BPI. > >I think the best bet is a digital or storage scope, looking at data channels >4 and 5 (the outermost ones on the tape) on two scope channels, and triggering >so the first transitions of a block are seen.? The preamble is 40 bytes of all >zeros, then one 1, followed by the data. > >Jon > > > From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 06:51:33 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 13:51:33 +0200 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 7:59, Jerry Wright wrote: > Some of the their workstations where Sun SPARC's and later they built their > own Intel based desk top systems. This one is likely not one of either, but CLIPPER (look it up). > These where very nice systems. Had all for the latest Video, SCSI, Dual > Processors, at that time. They ran NT with their software. I still have > 2 running at work. They will probably out live me. (None with their > software) TD-30 and TDZ-300. The latter is a Dual Pentium > PRO. You're thinking of different systems now. (Those came later.) - MG From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 08:24:14 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 08:24:14 -0500 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Here's what my friend has to say about the machine: A very low end clipper based server for graphics and other uses even numbers in other languages work. It was a 5 mips Clipper C 100 processor( a lot for 1989) with a Intel 80186 io processor with 8 or 16 MB of memory. Probably used the same card set as the low end workstation with out the graphics. It probably ran System V Unix. Collectors of obscure computer may be interested. I think I have a processor card for it. If it had graphics it would be called an Interpro 200. You may have trouble filling up the 166MB drive. About 5x faster than a VAX780. I had a very similar machine for a home machine for quite a few years. Vern had a C100 as a home machine also. Where did you run across it? http://www.cc-computerarchiv.de/CC-Archiv/edv-alt/ge-intg/ge-intg-6_89.html On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:51 AM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 7:59, Jerry Wright wrote: > >> Some of the their workstations where Sun SPARC's and later they built >> their >> own Intel based desk top systems. >> > > This one is likely not one of either, but CLIPPER (look it up). > > > > These where very nice systems. Had all for the latest Video, SCSI, Dual >> Processors, at that time. They ran NT with their software. I still have >> 2 running at work. They will probably out live me. (None with their >> software) TD-30 and TDZ-300. The latter is a Dual Pentium >> PRO. >> > > You're thinking of different systems now. (Those came later.) > > - MG > From sales at elecplus.com Tue Apr 9 09:05:45 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 09:05:45 -0500 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <010e01ce352b$549d1690$fdd743b0$@com> This one came with a batch of plotters from US military surplus years ago. Cindy Croxton Here's what my friend has to say about the machine: A very low end clipper based server for graphics and other uses even numbers in other languages work. It was a 5 mips Clipper C 100 processor( a lot for 1989) with a Intel 80186 io processor with 8 or 16 MB of memory. Probably used the same card set as the low end workstation with out the graphics. It probably ran System V Unix. Collectors of obscure computer may be interested. I think I have a processor card for it. If it had graphics it would be called an Interpro 200. You may have trouble filling up the 166MB drive. About 5x faster than a VAX780. I had a very similar machine for a home machine for quite a few years. Vern had a C100 as a home machine also. Where did you run across it? http://www.cc-computerarchiv.de/CC-Archiv/edv-alt/ge-intg/ge-intg-6_89.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6234 - Release Date: 04/09/13 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 09:45:49 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 10:45:49 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> On 04/08/2013 06:50 PM, MG wrote: > On 8-apr-2013 23:56, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Nope, I didn't tell you anything. Merely asked a question of the >> group; regarding the allowed headgear when participating here. >> >> It'd be kinda cramped to live under a mainframe, but I'd stay warm >> at least. >> >> Have a good day, Mr. Troll. :) > > Said the coward who called someone a nut, not even willing to say > why (or let alone substantiate such claims/smears), but is too > yellow to even admit having done so. > > - MG Coward? Nah, cowards don't come back for more. And I didn't call you a nut, I just implied in a round-about way that you seem to be a person in the conspiracy theory camp. As for admitting or not, Just having a little fun with words. As for your claim of IBM "...don't want people (and the /little people/ in particular) to find out that they've been providing the "mainframe" backbone for all those /nice/ bailed-out banks..." it does strike me as a conspiracy theory, hence my wise-crack. However, if you can provide evidence to back this up (not counting blogs from some unknown guy & dubious news articles) I will change my mind. As for their bank customers, couldn't one find that info out from IBM's SEC filings? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 09:46:46 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 10:46:46 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516429D6.7060902@sbcglobal.net> On 04/08/2013 07:13 PM, MG wrote: > > (By the way, are you the same 'Dave'?) > Check the sigs. Mr. McGuire & I are different people. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 09:57:51 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 10:57:51 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51635570.6050208@neurotica.com> References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> <51635570.6050208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51642C6F.6000707@sbcglobal.net> On 04/08/2013 07:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/08/2013 07:13 PM, MG wrote: >> On 8-apr-2013 23:42, Dave wrote: >>> I do hate answering the obvious trolling, but I am weak willed so >>> some answers in lin >> >> You thought by calling me names (e.g. "troll") I'd 'back down'? >> What kind of logic is behind that? You only make me more 'eager' >> to inquire and get to the bottom of this. >> >> Note that I was never 'trolling', just critically interested in what >> this "z" stuff entails nowadays and cross-referencing articles of >> well-known publications (like The Register). Maybe no intentionally trolling, but by the way you presented your arguments, and the lack of links to back up the claims, it most certainly comes across as trolling. > I cannot sit still for this one. > > You are not "critically interested". You sit there spouting off > "MAINFRAMES ARE DEAD, YOU ARE A RELIC IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE" in various > ways, trolling with your cluelessness and tired old rhetoric. > > Do not EVEN try to bring any degree of respectability to the shit you've > spewed here. There was no "critically interested" about it. You are a > clueless troll, nothing more, and nothing less. And there's MORE...See below! > >> So far, no refutations, just name-calling. Well, a bit of something >> vaguely resembling a /discussion/ is slowly returning. So, I guess >> that's a good sign and it's not all lost yet. >> >> (By the way, are you the same 'Dave'?) > > He is not the same "Dave". Yeah, sorry 'bout adding that confusion, Dave... ;) >> HP is only keeping up appearances with its IA-64 offerings, just >> to annoy Oracle and that's about it, it seems. I doubt Oracle >> in turn would keep the SPARC stuff alive much longer either, >> they seem /content/ with their x86 things. > > Keep reading the news, you're missing stuff. The latest SPARC hit the > streets a week or two ago. Are you pretending to know more about the SPARC > market than Oracle now, as well as knowing more about the mainframe market > than IBM? > > What color IS the sky in your world, anyway? > > -Dave > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 10:14:13 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:14:13 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 16:45, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Coward? Nah, cowards don't come back for more. And I didn't call > you a nut, I just implied in a round-about way that you seem to be a > person in the conspiracy theory camp. So, how is that not equivalent to calling someone a 'nut'? Also, how are the bank bail-outs a "conspiracy"? Then the entire media of various countries have been reporting on a "conspiracy theory"? Then the U.S. Congress, various European governments, etc. have not really concealed those "conspiracies" much either, or have they? > As for your claim of IBM "...don't want people (and the /little > people/ in particular) to find out that they've been providing the > "mainframe" backbone for all those /nice/ bailed-out banks..." it does > strike me as a conspiracy theory, hence my wise-crack. Why is that a "conspiracy theory"? IBM, as others have said, does a lot of business supposedly with these banks. Or are you hereby saying that that is a hoax? You may want to take that up with the IBM propagandists, in other words. > However, if you can provide evidence to back this up (not counting > blogs from some unknown guy & dubious news articles) I will change my > mind. (Re-)Read this thread for starters, see the claims of "z" being very proliferated in the world of big banking. > As for their bank customers, couldn't one find that info out > from IBM's SEC filings? I guess so? (I'm not from America.) - MG From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 10:36:19 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:36:19 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51643573.2090803@sbcglobal.net> On 04/08/2013 08:56 PM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 2:15, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I dunno, I had quite a few of them in my datacenter. They >> were very common in my world. Some of them still are. > > Why, oh why, would anyone want to run an EOL platform? (Other than > to keep things up and running.) Because they can? They enjoy it. I believe that's the whole point of ClassiCMP, if I'm not mistaken... >> As I said, which is quoted below, IN THE 1990s. > > I was also talking about the present. I know, not your favorite > place to be. Sorry about that. > > >> Dropping a quarter mil on a big server isn't usually done via >> ads in computer magazines. > > Are you now denying the existence of such ads? Also, I wouldn't > call (e.g.) an AlphaStation 200, Digital Personal WorkStation or > something else of (roughly) that proportion a "big server". Umm, "..isn't usually done..." does not equal denial. Notice the word "usually". >> Are you under some impression that these machines were intended >> for home use by consumers?? > > I keep forgetting that it's wholly illogical and unreasonable for > people to run systems in their small(er) business environments and, > /gawd forbid/, at home! Well, depends upon the system. In this particular discussion, using a mainframe for SMB or home use is like hunting a squirrel with a gatling gun. > You'd be surprised at the amount of things that were ported (think > of F/OSS offerings) to VMS by those evil, non-millionaire, scum > /little people/ you so dearly despise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never read Dave saying he despised the "little people" (nor anyone else, really) that you refer to. However, judging by the way this is going, I think it's safe to say he despises email trolls. >> It was no easier nor more difficult than building things on any >> other OS. > > How about now? Keep this also in mind for the below paragraphs. > > >>> Digital/Tru64 UNIX saw quite a bit of usage, especially here. >>> Many companies and government agencies ran VMS and Tru64 UNIX, >>> but it's sadly all dead now and gone to Windows and Linux. >> >> ALL of it, huh? *chuckle* > > Why would anyone want to run an EOL (read: dead) operating > system without even a community left? (Thanks to the PAKs > not being provided any longer.) See my first comment above... > Guess what subsequently happened to F/OSS offerings, to make > it even less attractive? > > The only people still running Tru64 UNIX, over here at least, > are in the process of moving to emulators and some --- those > daring enough --- moving to HP-UX on HP's miracle denialware > (better known as IPF, a.k.a. IA-64 or... /Itanic/ by some). > > >> ...for the cheap consumer market, and the idiots... > > You mean the non-millionaire /little people/? > > So, who exactly are the "idiots" now? Tru64 UNIX is dead > now and it has been for many years. > > HP didn't even proceed to port off things like TruCluster, > AdvFS, etc. to HP-UX, as they promised in the roadmaps at > the time (around 2003~'05). > > >> Besides, DEC would *give* you OSF/1 if you bought an >> Alpha, in nearly all cases. Once again, you're dead wrong. > > Oh, right, that's why nearly everything was bolted down with > PAKs? (Product Activation Keys, in case you may have perhaps > forgotten.) > > >> I didn't work in that world. It was owned by SGI anyway; >> Alphas were never a serious player in that world. > > No, they didn't, but they did make some inroads when it came > to raw number crunching; you know, rendering (like I wrote > about earlier). > > Those NT AXP systems supposedly outran some SGI IRIX/MIPS > systems at the time. (Note: I'm a huge SGI fan, I also own > a good amount of them and still run them, including a close- > to-max'ed out quad-processor Tezro.) > > >> Here we go again! > > So, where is SGI now? Where is (pre-Oracle) Sun now? Where > is SCO now? Where is DEC itself now? Where are all those > HP-UX, AIX, etc. workstations now? > > - MG -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 8 10:55:51 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 08:55:51 -0700 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5162E887.8080004@sydex.com> On 04/08/2013 04:53 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Have you used the "verbatim search" feature? > > Peace... Sridhar Have G changed the rules again? It wasn't that long ago that quotes around a search term meant "exactly this". What's the current convention? --Chuck From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 10:50:33 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:50:33 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51637183.70007@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51637183.70007@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516438C9.9000107@sbcglobal.net> On 04/08/2013 09:40 PM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 2:35, Liam Proven wrote: > > Like I said, it's a beautiful sounding system, I never doubted that. > > My main gripe is the 'elitism' that IBM seems to instill and (like > also someone else admitted) seems to artificially keep alive. > > It also --- well, to me anyway --- gives the impression that it's > more of a money making scheme (the 'exclusivity', so to speak) > than a sound future-proof treatment. Well IBM _is_ a publicly traded company, and aside from making good systems, they also have to make money for themselves & their shareholders. While you may not like how they do it, they are making money. >> Imagine a whole server room, hell, a whole datacentre, with hundreds >> of independent servers - some running Windows, some Linux, some >> Solaris, some Netapp Filers, some dedicated SQL servers, all in a >> single rack, managed as a single instance, with 100% compatibility and >> all the components, from the processor chips to the disk drives to the >> network cards to all the OSs, all coming from a single vendor, all >> optimised for handling big server workloads with /better than/ 99.999% >> availability. > > I've never seen official performance statistics, just IBM's own > figures. So, I can't comment on how it truly behaves in this > regard. > > >> That is why people still buy (or more to the point, rent) mainframes. > > There is a generation, I'm even willing to bet several generations, > that grew up with nothing other than Windows and Linux. Some young > enough have never even experienced nor seen/heard an IBM PC, let > alone the term "IBM PC". > > Why is this important? Because IBM itself, the company, is also > falling further into obscurity like this, along with "z". Really? IBM? Obscurity? Heh heh heh... I'll believe that when I see it. IBM has been pretty good at updating things to stay in the game. However, if you can back up your claim of IBM going obscure... >> I am not talking about a system that is 5? or 10? more scalable. >> I'm talking about something 50? or 100? more scalable. Not >> supporting hundreds of users per box, but millions of users per >> box. > > Why isn't IBM more eager to speak of this and show the world what > "z" is truly capable of? Why isn't YouTube loaded with videos > showing these kind of things of, to name something? Because the people that care about this, and need to know, don't "need no stinkin'" ads & youtube videos to know who to call. > I really don't get it, such a capable platform (I'm told), but > absolutely no desire to expand and increase its user/install > base? Oh, I'm sure they would love to expand their mainframe business. But the people that need that get treated differently. IBM would have a sales guy go to the potential client. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 10:57:22 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:57:22 -0400 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <5162E887.8080004@sydex.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> <5162E887.8080004@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51643A62.6000901@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/08/2013 04:53 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Have you used the "verbatim search" feature? > > Have G changed the rules again? It wasn't that long ago that quotes > around a search term meant "exactly this". What's the current convention? On search results, go to "All Results"->"Verbatim". I'd love for them to allow one to set that up as default for one's Google account. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 9 11:04:46 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 12:04:46 -0400 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <51643A62.6000901@gmail.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> <5162E887.8080004@sydex.com> <51643A62.6000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51643C1E.9070501@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2013 11:57 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 04/08/2013 04:53 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >>> Have you used the "verbatim search" feature? >> >> Have G changed the rules again? It wasn't that long ago that quotes >> around a search term meant "exactly this". What's the current convention? > > On search results, go to "All Results"->"Verbatim". I'd love for them to > allow one to set that up as default for one's Google account. Are you sure they don't? If so...I wonder why. Weird. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 11:08:01 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:08:01 -0400 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <51643A62.6000901@gmail.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> <5162E887.8080004@sydex.com> <51643A62.6000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01B8FAF2-53C1-4BFA-8D68-FF75EE6B054F@gmail.com> On Apr 9, 2013, at 11:57 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 04/08/2013 04:53 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >>> Have you used the "verbatim search" feature? >> >> Have G changed the rules again? It wasn't that long ago that quotes >> around a search term meant "exactly this". What's the current convention? > > On search results, go to "All Results"->"Verbatim". I'd love for them to allow one to set that up as default for one's Google account. Oh, that's really good to know. I'm tired of my searches for DECNET being dominated by results for "decent". Yes, Google, I can spell. - Dave From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Apr 9 11:08:40 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 18:08:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config Message-ID: allison wrote: [RX02 or RX50] > > Mass storage for my system is another area I need to spend more thought on, for now I was planning to stay with the RL drives I got with the case. > > > In the PDP11 world its easy to build a system that forgets portable IO. > A reminder PDP-11 as not a PC and even a 256kb floppy is viable storage > as RT11 fits on it. I'm not sure what I'd need it for? There is no other system within walking distance that would understand the floppy format natively. Any file I/O thus most likely will happen across the Internet (involving a PC anyway), so I hoped I'd be fine with the TU58 emulation software discussed below. >> RL packs were over 160$ new (...) > cables, terminators and those annoying and scarce drive ID plugs. Terminator: check. ID plugs 0 and 1: check. Cables: no check yet but inbound. > If anything the floppy is always a must on my systems as all my diags and > base RT11 systems are on that media (RX01, RX02, RX50, RX33, RX23). Are they also available in TU58 (file) format? > A viable uVAX is more than 150mb, (more like 300-500 for V7), > a loaded PDP11 is 30MB. Just difference is OS utilization. So I guess it all boils down on what one wants to run on it. I've got one functional RD53 in it right now, and a second one I hope to revive at some point in the future. > I would not covet a large drive unless you had the application that > required it. I thought that we here run large drives just for the kicks of it?! > > I do have a TQK(mumble) board already (which was originally also intended for the VSII), but no drive yet. > Save it as loading diags from TK50 is both slow and painful assuming the system can boot a tK50 (not guaranteed). ?? (not understanding the above). I should save the controller because the whole subsystem is bad? [core] > The older LSI11 systems had it if there was a call for non volatile > memory, the cost was high. > I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle > time than Ram of > the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on the day was > under 1us and dropping. So thus probably not very prevalent and not easy to find nowadays. Ho hum. I've also already found out that the memory board I'll be getting is 512k_Bytes_ (256kW) and does _not_ have BBU support. [OS question] > Start with RT11 as a base os and it will allow you to test and get comfortable at lower > cost to learn. It will be transferable knowledge to RSTS or RSX, may help with getting Unix > on the machine. Agreed, sounds like a good starting point. So long, Arno From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 11:14:08 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:14:08 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516429D6.7060902@sbcglobal.net> References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> <516429D6.7060902@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > Check the sigs. Mr. McGuire & I are different people. Cripes, guys, just drop it and plonk the guy already. The humour value of the thread went South some time ago. -- Will From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 11:15:10 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 12:15:10 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51643E8E.9040101@sbcglobal.net> On 04/09/2013 11:14 AM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 16:45, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Coward? Nah, cowards don't come back for more. And I didn't call >> you a nut, I just implied in a round-about way that you seem to be a >> person in the conspiracy theory camp. > > So, how is that not equivalent to calling someone a 'nut'? Because when the word nut is used in this slang way, it means the person is crazy and should be committed. Conspiracy-theoriest, however, are not crazy. They just believe things are different from what others believe. > Also, how are the bank bail-outs a "conspiracy"? Then the entire > media of various countries have been reporting on a "conspiracy > theory"? Then the U.S. Congress, various European governments, > etc. have not really concealed those "conspiracies" much either, > or have they? > >> As for your claim of IBM "...don't want people (and the /little >> people/ in particular) to find out that they've been providing the >> "mainframe" backbone for all those /nice/ bailed-out banks..." it does >> strike me as a conspiracy theory, hence my wise-crack. > > Why is that a "conspiracy theory"? IBM, as others have said, does > a lot of business supposedly with these banks. Or are you hereby > saying that that is a hoax? I don't believe that I stated the bail-outs were a conspiracy, or at least I did not intend to. It was your claim of IBM trying to hide the fact that they supply mainframes to those bank, that sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Again, if you have proof of them doing this, then I will change my tune on that. As has been mentioned before, and Liam did it the best.. IBM doesn't need to talk about their mainframe customers publicly. They could if they want; but in that league, personal contact is the way to do it. > You may want to take that up with the IBM propagandists, in other > words. It is your use of phrases like that, "propagandists", that lead people to believe you are trolling. If you could rephrase that, it would go a long way. >> However, if you can provide evidence to back this up (not counting >> blogs from some unknown guy & dubious news articles) I will change my >> mind. > > (Re-)Read this thread for starters, see the claims of "z" being very > proliferated in the world of big banking. I've followed this thread, since I was the one who posted the email that started this brouhaha. Haven't seen any proof, links to good sources. >> As for their bank customers, couldn't one find that info out >> from IBM's SEC filings? > > I guess so? (I'm not from America.) Not being a financial guy, I honestly don't know either. Anyone? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 9 11:21:26 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 12:21:26 -0400 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <01B8FAF2-53C1-4BFA-8D68-FF75EE6B054F@gmail.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> <5162E887.8080004@sydex.com> <51643A62.6000901@gmail.com> <01B8FAF2-53C1-4BFA-8D68-FF75EE6B054F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51644006.6010608@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2013 12:08 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>> Have you used the "verbatim search" feature? >>> >>> Have G changed the rules again? It wasn't that long ago that quotes >>> around a search term meant "exactly this". What's the current convention? >> >> On search results, go to "All Results"->"Verbatim". I'd love for them to allow one to set that up as default for one's Google account. > > Oh, that's really good to know. I'm tired of my searches for > DECNET being dominated by results for "decent". Yes, Google, > I can spell. Perhaps Google's algorithms just really like DECnet. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 9 11:30:32 2013 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 12:30:32 -0400 Subject: For Free - Local Pickup Putnam, NY 10512 In-Reply-To: <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> Message-ID: <51644228.6050303@atarimuseum.com> For free - Viewsonic 19" XVGA Color Monitor, Black - Model # E90fB http://www1.viewsonic.com/products/archive/e90fb.htm Barely used, bought it for a project that I never pursued, in the middle of Spring Cleaning and I would like to get it out of my office as its been sitting on the floor in the corner for quite sometime collecting dust. Anyone who wants it and is local and can pick it up, please contact me offlist to make arrangements. Curt From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 11:56:07 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 09:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130409094436.A99301@shell.lmi.net> > It'd be kinda cramped to live under a mainframe, but I'd stay warm > at least. Aren't Mainframe rooms still kept cold? (probably not as noisy, anymore) How much cabling is there in the subfloor? > ...don't want people (and the /little people/ in particular) to find out > that they've been providing the "mainframe" backbone for all those > /nice/ bailed-out banks... WHY would they CARE what you or anybody else who isn't a customer (or qualified lead) know or think about their affiliations with bankers, guvmints, or the nazis in WW2? If it makes them MONEY, then they aren't ashamed of ANYTHING. Or do you think that they would try to conceal their involvement out of fear that they might lose YOU as a potential customer? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 11:58:54 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 09:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, MG wrote: > Why is that a "conspiracy theory"? IBM, as others have said, does > a lot of business supposedly with these banks. Or are you hereby > saying that that is a hoax? IBM does a lot of business with ANYBODY with that kind of money. They are not interested in you or me, or what we think; we don't have that kind of money. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 12:06:47 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:06:47 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07A6944F-592D-48D4-A4EA-8669ACDD6201@gmail.com> On Apr 9, 2013, at 12:08, "Arno Kletzander" wrote: >> I would not covet a large drive unless you had the application that >> required it. > > I thought that we here run large drives just for the kicks of it?! Well, maybe. I have an MSCP SCSI card (DU: to RSX) and I have a 2GB SCSI drive attached to it. RSX-11M deals fine with all that space, but it's a huge waste since I'll never ever use it. Also, the huge volume size means a PIP/FR takes about 15 minutes (not an exaggeration, I timed it). If you mean physically large drives, yeah, they're fun, but I know at least I couldn't justify the power bill. - Dave From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 12:29:56 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 13:29:56 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, MG wrote: >> Why is that a "conspiracy theory"? IBM, as others have said, does >> a lot of business supposedly with these banks. Or are you hereby >> saying that that is a hoax? > > IBM does a lot of business with ANYBODY with that kind of money. > They are not interested in you or me, or what we think; we don't have that > kind of money. Actually, they are interested in us. They just don't consider us the market for z. The prices for entry-level p has been in small business territory for quite a long time. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 9 12:30:13 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 10:30:13 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <20130409094436.A99301@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <20130409094436.A99301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51645025.5000901@sydex.com> On 04/09/2013 09:56 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> It'd be kinda cramped to live under a mainframe, but I'd stay warm >> at least. > > Aren't Mainframe rooms still kept cold? > (probably not as noisy, anymore) > How much cabling is there in the subfloor? That's relative. When I was on a boondoggle trip to Minneapolis in January during the Arab Oil Embargo, the machine room was the WARMEST place to hang out. I'd grab my motel pillow and hunker down with a good book between a couple of SBUs. Mmmmm, toasty... --Chuck From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 12:50:12 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 13:50:12 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51645025.5000901@sydex.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <20130409094436.A99301@shell.lmi.net> <51645025.5000901@sydex.com> Message-ID: <516454D4.5040102@sbcglobal.net> On 04/09/2013 01:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/09/2013 09:56 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> It'd be kinda cramped to live under a mainframe, but I'd stay warm >>> at least. >> >> Aren't Mainframe rooms still kept cold? >> (probably not as noisy, anymore) >> How much cabling is there in the subfloor? > > That's relative. When I was on a boondoggle trip to Minneapolis in > January during the Arab Oil Embargo, the machine room was the WARMEST > place to hang out. I'd grab my motel pillow and hunker down with a good > book between a couple of SBUs. Mmmmm, toasty... > > --Chuck > > Thanks guys, killing my humor... ;) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 13:10:43 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 14:10:43 -0400 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME =?windows-1252?Q?=95_The?= =?windows-1252?Q?_Register?= Message-ID: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely on topic (Mac Cube). And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_roundup/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 13:17:29 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:17:29 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51645B39.40200@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 18:58, Fred Cisin wrote: > IBM does a lot of business with ANYBODY with that kind of money. > They are not interested in you or me, or what we think; we don't > have that kind of money. That is one of the few things that I knew from the start. I don't know how many millionaires and big bank data center architects/ support types are on this list, but it's usually not the type of company or business people --- or, I personally anyway --- would become very /affectionate/ about. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 13:20:45 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:20:45 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51645BFD.9010304@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 19:29, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Actually, they are interested in us. They just don't consider > us the market for z. The prices for entry-level p has been in > small business territory for quite a long time. IBM is convinced that their mainframe, although at some point in the future virtually no one will have heard of it, will somehow remain desirable. (Invisible telepathic marketing, perhaps?) Also, if you're interested in getting a pack of angry IBM types after you, you should proceed to roughly equate "p" to "z" in any way. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 13:22:32 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:22:32 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <20130409094436.A99301@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <20130409094436.A99301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51645C68.8000103@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 18:56, Fred Cisin wrote: > WHY would they CARE what you or anybody else who isn't a customer (or > qualified lead) know or think about their affiliations with bankers, > guvmints, or the nazis in WW2? If it makes them MONEY, then they > aren't ashamed of ANYTHING. And /gawd bless them/! > Or do you think that they would try to conceal their involvement out > of fear that they might lose YOU as a potential customer? I'll admit, that's a good one! - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 13:31:46 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:31:46 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_?= =?windows-1252?Q?ALL_TIME_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 20:10, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & > Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely > on topic (Mac Cube). > And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting > read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No > bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... > If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) > > The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME > Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_roundup/ The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but the paupers didn't even mention /one/ SGI. How the hell is that possible? Even their saint Steve Jobs spoke well of SGI, very well actually. (Also, to hell with them and their multi-page layout. Are they so desperate to maximize their ad revenues that they have to resort to that?!) - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 9 13:36:26 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 14:36:26 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51645BFD.9010304@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> <51645BFD.9010304@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51645FAA.30306@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2013 02:20 PM, MG wrote: > IBM is convinced that their mainframe, although at some point > in the future virtually no one will have heard of it, will > somehow remain desirable. (Invisible telepathic marketing, > perhaps?) Is this another expression of being "critically interested"? > Also, if you're interested in getting a pack of angry IBM types > after you, you should proceed to roughly equate "p" to "z" in > any way. No. To be WRONG, you should proceed to roughly equate "p" to "z" in any way. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jon at jonworld.com Tue Apr 9 13:38:08 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:38:08 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <278D2ACC-0B81-496C-B652-C53CB2561EED@jonworld.com> On Apr 9, 2013, at 2:10 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely on topic (Mac Cube). > And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion? This will open some mouths and keyboards. El Reg has a slight UK bias and it clearly shows by giving the Sinclair ZX series two spots on the list. I do believe the Mac Cube is an awesome design, even if prone to overheating. Home hackers have made them into dual-processor systems, too. I also think the C64 has a better design than the C128, but what do I know? The comments on the article at El Reg say it all. No CM-2 or CM-5, no SGIs. No Sun E10k or CS6400 (each kind of sexy cabinet systems in their own right.) CM-2: http://www.mission-base.com/tamiko/cm/cm-image.html CM-5: http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/Cyberia/MetaComp/CM5.html SGI Tezro or Indy? Indy: http://www.sgistuff.net/hardware/systems/indy.html Tezro: http://www.nekochan.net/gallery2/v/SGI_Photos/album121/ CS6400: [ 2 cabinets on the left; the right are just disk arrays ] http://perfectionistsatwork.com/Cray-SUNs-AllSystems-800x600.jpg From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 13:46:31 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:46:31 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Remove the ZX81, whose keyboard disqualifies it from any list of best anything. Substitute in the Thinking Machines TM-1. On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & > Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely on > topic (Mac Cube). > And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting > read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No > bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... > If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) > > The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME > Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out > http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_** > computers_roundup/ > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.**org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 9 14:10:38 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:10:38 -0700 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Honestly, I'm really surprised by the list. I was surprised first by the C-128, and even more surprised by the time I got to #10. I didn't take time to see if they listed criteria for the choices, but I find the machines selected to be odd. I for one would have put a BeBox in the list (and I've never even seen one). I'd have likely also included the G5 PowerMac (and current Mac Pro's) for their case. Zane At 2:10 PM -0400 4/9/13, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air >& Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is >barely on topic (Mac Cube). > And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an >interesting read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the >list? No bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... >If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) > >The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME >Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_roundup/ >-- >--- Dave Woyciesjes >--- ICQ# 905818 >--- AIM - woyciesjes >--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ >--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > >"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." >"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 9 14:13:22 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:13:22 -0700 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: At 8:31 PM +0200 4/9/13, MG wrote: >The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but the paupers >didn't even mention /one/ SGI. How the hell is that possible? >Even their saint Steve Jobs spoke well of SGI, very well actually. Who remembers SGI? When I wrote my previous email, even I forgot them. :-( The Octane, O2, and Tezro should all be on the list! :-) Maybe Sun's SunBlade 1000 as well. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From colineby at isallthat.com Tue Apr 9 14:15:19 2013 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:15:19 +0100 Subject: System 36 SSP 5.25" Media Message-ID: <47173197-9F9F-4F6A-86B9-10781F2C8F7F@isallthat.com> All, Every couple of years I throw this one out there. Would anyone have a copy of the media for an IBM System/36 5363 -- that the second version of the 5.25" distribution. I'd love to get my hands on a copy if anyone has such a thing, either physically or as an image set. -Colin From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 9 14:24:01 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:24:01 +0100 Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?RE:_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_._The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <012101ce3557$ce2744f0$6a75ced0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Woyciesjes > Sent: 09 April 2013 19:11 > To: ClassicCMP > Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME . The Register > > Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & > Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely on > topic (Mac Cube). > And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting read. > But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No bickering, we all > know everyone has their own opinion... > If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) > > The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME > Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_ro > undup/ > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. How about the Connection Machine: http://people.csail.mit.edu/bradley/cm5/ Regards Rob From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 14:32:25 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 21:32:25 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> <516429D6.7060902@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51646CC9.1070803@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 18:14, William Donzelli wrote: > Cripes, guys, just drop it and plonk the guy already. The humour > value of the thread went South some time ago. Dear lord, you are weak. - MG From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 14:35:36 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 15:35:36 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_?= =?windows-1252?Q?ALL_TIME_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51646D88.6020105@sbcglobal.net> On 04/09/2013 02:31 PM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 20:10, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & >> Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely >> on topic (Mac Cube). >> And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting >> read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No >> bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... >> If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) >> >> The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME >> Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_roundup/ >> > > The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but the paupers > didn't even mention /one/ SGI. How the hell is that possible? > Even their saint Steve Jobs spoke well of SGI, very well actually. Well, everyone has their own opinions, their own idea of what's sexy. I asked for others suggestions, not bickering about what someone else chose. And yes, I do think SGI should have been represented. > (Also, to hell with them and their multi-page layout. Are they so > desperate to maximize their ad revenues that they have to resort > to that?!) > Maybe? I just think though that it;s easier to read that way, instead of scrolling forever. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 14:38:12 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 12:38:12 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_?= =?windows-1252?Q?ALL_TIME_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51646E24.5030205@gmail.com> On 4/9/2013 11:31 AM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 20:10, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & >> Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely >> on topic (Mac Cube). >> And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting >> read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No >> bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... >> If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) >> >> The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME >> Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_roundup/ >> > > The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but the paupers > didn't even mention /one/ SGI. How the hell is that possible? > Even their saint Steve Jobs spoke well of SGI, very well actually. > > (Also, to hell with them and their multi-page layout. Are they so > desperate to maximize their ad revenues that they have to resort > to that?!) > > - MG I have to agree. It's a little more forgivable when you look at this being a UK paper and they probably picked computers that were popular there. I've never heard anyone call a Sinclair anything sexy. A paper in the US would have a completely different list. To me the only one that really belongs on that list is the NeXT. The Cray is nice but, such expensive limited production stuff shouldn't really be considered. Otherwise it would probably be impossible to pick ten. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 14:38:55 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 21:38:55 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51643573.2090803@sbcglobal.net> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <51643573.2090803@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51646E4F.2060906@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 17:36, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Because they can? They enjoy it. I believe that's the whole > point of ClassiCMP, if I'm not mistaken... Did you miss the part where I said I run Tru64 UNIX myself? (And the part, for that matter, that many --- over here, at least --- are moving away from that platform. Or, actually, already moved away.) >>> Dropping a quarter mil on a big server isn't usually done via >>> ads in computer magazines. >> >> Are you now denying the existence of such ads? Also, I wouldn't >> call (e.g.) an AlphaStation 200, Digital Personal WorkStation or >> something else of (roughly) that proportion a "big server". > > Umm, "..isn't usually done..." does not equal denial. Notice the > word "usually". It equaled none for me, because I never saw anything other than those AlphaPC, AXPpci, etc. offerings (like I said at least twice before). Maybe you should reread some posts? > Well, depends upon the system. In this particular discussion, > using a mainframe for SMB or home use is like hunting a squirrel > witha gatling gun. What about getting any exposure to this platform at all? What about allowing people to get acquainted with it? What about allowing people the chance to port and develop software for this platform? (See also the example I gave with VMS earlier.) > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never read Dave saying he despised > the "little people" (nor anyone else, really) that you refer to. Then you probably didn't read this thread very well. - MG From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 9 14:41:07 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Jason McBrien wrote: > Remove the ZX81, whose keyboard disqualifies it from any list of best > anything. > Oh I don't know. The lack of keys means you won't shear any off when you wedge it under a door... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 14:43:27 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 21:43:27 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516438C9.9000107@sbcglobal.net> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51637183.70007@xs4all.nl> <516438C9.9000107@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51646F5F.4090302@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 17:50, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Well IBM _is_ a publicly traded company, and aside from making > good systems, they also have to make money for themselves & their > shareholders. While you may not like how they do it, they are making > money. It sounds more like there are a bunch of big freeloaders at the top of IBM, just like in many other companies (HP immediately springs to mind), who care more for their own, personal, immediate needs --- their car park, yachts and private jets --- than the prolonged existence of their niche and "legacy" product lines. > Because the people that care about this, and need to know, > don't "need no stinkin'" ads & youtube videos to know who to call. That's something of and for the /little people/, now isn't it? I guess that's true then. > Oh, I'm sure they would love to expand their mainframe business. And world peace too, don't forget world peace. Maybe throw in "going green" also, while they're at it. > But the people that need that get treated differently. IBM would have > a sales guy go to the potential client. How delightfully 1950s, so in a way also a bit like a door-to-door vacuum cleaner salesman? - MG From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 14:48:14 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:48:14 -0500 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: There's some questionable choices on there... The Sinclair entries... and the biggest of all... PS3? It's not even a proper computer. On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:31 PM +0200 4/9/13, MG wrote: > >> The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but the paupers >> didn't even mention /one/ SGI. How the hell is that possible? >> Even their saint Steve Jobs spoke well of SGI, very well actually. >> > > Who remembers SGI? When I wrote my previous email, even I forgot them. :-( > > The Octane, O2, and Tezro should all be on the list! :-) Maybe Sun's > SunBlade 1000 as well. > > Zane > > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +-----------------------------**-----+------------------------**----+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/**33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.**com | > > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 14:49:10 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 15:49:10 -0400 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <516470B6.9030905@sbcglobal.net> But to be fair, has Tony Smith (the author) seen any of the big toys we love? A better title, I'd say, would be one where he specified this was _his_ list... But I digress, picking nits. :) BeBox? I don't have a mental image. As for Macs (of all ages), the _only_ one I would choose would be the Cube. A Sun Ultra 1 may not be the sexiest, but I'd wager is up there. But lest we forget another sexy beast, the IBM z series mainframe. Not I'm not screwing around, with the other thread. I realy do like the looks of it: https://www.computerworld.com.au/slideshow/354082/pictures_ibm_new_system_z_mainframe/?image=5 On 04/09/2013 03:10 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Honestly, I'm really surprised by the list. I was surprised first by > the C-128, and even more surprised by the time I got to #10. I didn't > take time to see if they listed criteria for the choices, but I find the > machines selected to be odd. I for one would have put a BeBox in the > list (and I've never even seen one). I'd have likely also included the > G5 PowerMac (and current Mac Pro's) for their case. > > Zane > > > > > At 2:10 PM -0400 4/9/13, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & >> Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is >> barely on topic (Mac Cube). >> And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting >> read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No >> bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... >> If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) >> >> The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME >> Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_roundup/ >> -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 14:51:18 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 21:51:18 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51645FAA.30306@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> <51645BFD.9010304@xs4all.nl> <51645FAA.30306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51647136.2010903@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 20:36, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/09/2013 02:20 PM, MG wrote: >> IBM is convinced that their mainframe, although at some point >> in the future virtually no one will have heard of it, will >> somehow remain desirable. (Invisible telepathic marketing, >> perhaps?) > > Is this another expression of being "critically interested"? How many have heard of "z" 'out there'? Let's say, how about in the now and present (that's the year 2013, just so you know) and all those below the age of 25? Or let's say below 45. How many have had the chance to use a "z" in the education mills? How many have had the chance to see, let alone use, a "z" on or at their job? How many people read about "z" in current computer publications? How many public forums are there about "z"? How many public remote access "z" systems are there? To just name (or actually, rehash) a few things. I'm sure you'd rather opt for the "yer a TROLL" name-calling once more, instead of answering. > No. To be WRONG, you should proceed to roughly equate "p" to > "z" in any way. LOL. - MG From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 15:00:02 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130409124332.D99301@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Jason McBrien wrote: > Remove the ZX81, whose keyboard disqualifies it from any list of best > anything. That's just a decorative PICTURE of a keyboard. Like "serving suggestion" on a box of cereal. It also provides some protection against scraping up the bottom of the door that it is used with. If you are going to do anything that involves input, then you would need to connect an actual keyboard. I once sold a ragged old disk pack at a computer swap. One that had seen a lot of use being passed around a classroom. My assistant stuck a Timex between the platters, and changed the sign to read "Mass storage for Sinclairs. Holds four." I don't know from "sexiest", but it was the funniest computer of its time. Perhaps one of the early Sonys, with their Italian case design? Or the original NeXt? Too bad that they didn't go through with shaping it like a human head. or foot. N* Horizon and Darth Vader's lunchbox were good one - people thought that they were homemade. I suppose that you would need to include something flat, with rounded corners, . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 9 15:00:53 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:00:53 -0400 Subject: System 36 SSP 5.25" Media In-Reply-To: <47173197-9F9F-4F6A-86B9-10781F2C8F7F@isallthat.com> References: <47173197-9F9F-4F6A-86B9-10781F2C8F7F@isallthat.com> Message-ID: <51647375.6020104@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2013 03:15 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > Every couple of years I throw this one out there. Would anyone have a > copy of the media for an IBM System/36 5363 -- that the second > version of the 5.25" distribution. I'd love to get my hands on a > copy if anyone has such a thing, either physically or as an image > set. I believe my local friend Eric might have this, as I'm pretty sure he has one of those machines. He's on this list, but is super busy. I will ping him privately to see. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 15:01:39 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 16:01:39 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > Remove the ZX81, whose keyboard disqualifies it from any list of best > anything. Best door wedge? -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 15:02:06 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130409130135.R99301@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Who remembers SGI? When I wrote my previous email, even I forgot them. :-( > The Octane, O2, and Tezro should all be on the list! :-) Maybe Sun's > SunBlade 1000 as well. Howzbout one of those ADM3 imitations that Apple put out? From lists at loomcom.com Tue Apr 9 15:05:50 2013 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 16:05:50 -0400 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME ? The Register In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130409200550.GA21900@mail.loomcom.com> * On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 02:10:43PM -0400, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME [...] I don't think any two people on this list will have a list in agreement with each other, but here's mine. A lot of these are "sexy" for personal reasons (i.e. I really really really wanted one). The list will also show what an unabashed DEC fanboy I am. I make no apologies for that :) THIS LIST IS COMPLETELY UNORDERED! * SGI Indigo R4K Elan I lusted after one when they were announced, and I worked (all too briefly) for SGI just as they were being discontinued. So, of course I took one home from work. * DEC PDP-1 Sexy for its historical impact, and sexy because it was the first DEC computer. * NeXT Cube Similar lust appeal to the Indigo when they were new. I could never have dreamed of affording one until they were obsolete. * DEC PDP-8 (The original "Straight 8") The minicomputer that (arguably) started the minicomputer revolution. The smoked plastic card cage still gives me the chills (I'm easy) * Commodore Amiga 1000 I've never owned one, but my uncle did it had a huge impact on my life. I considedred it probably the sexiest computer in the world when it came out. * Symbolics 3620 LISP Machine It had lines. It had LISP. It had a keyboard with a triangle, a square, and a circle. That's pretty sexy! * DEC PDP-11/70 The ultimate minicomputer. Not really so mini, actually. * SPARCstation Voyager Really underappreciated, I think. Innovative. Cool. * DEC PDP-10 (in general, but specifically the console of the KI10) My favorite mainframe (ha, there's that word again!). OK, OK, debate about the mainframe moniker asside, sexy for historical reasons, and its profound impact on AI research. 36 Bits Forever. * Original 1984 Macintosh 128K I expect this is the the most controversial on my list. It didn't wow with features, but it marked an important shift in the market. We all know the story. -Seth From jws at jwsss.com Tue Apr 9 15:13:47 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 13:13:47 -0700 Subject: [N8VEM: 15818] XT-IDE V2 PCBs available In-Reply-To: References: <000301ce33b9$b70c8360$25258a20$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <5164767B.8030703@jwsss.com> On 4/8/2013 4:11 PM, ..I'd rather be coding ASM! wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > I'm interested in a couple please. Answering for Andrew, calculate the amount and send a paypal or order directly to andrew @ LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM He may or may not see this posting on cctalk for some time. Jim Hi! More XT-IDE V2 PCBs have arrived. They will cost the same as before ($12 each). However due to unforeseen extreme price increases in shipping by USPS I am forced to change shipping costs. Shipping in the US will be $3 for a single PCB and $2 for each additional PCB. Shipping internationally will be $10 for a single PCB and $3 for each additional PCB. This is for the bare basics USPS first class postage with no tracking or insurance. The builder assumes all risk of delivery as per usual arrangement. I apologize for the large price increase on shipping but this is out of my hands. The USPS is in dire financial trouble and is raising prices on shipping. It affects us all and is most unfortunate. These boards are provided "at cost" so there is no margin to absorb any shipping price increases. I have to pass them along. If you would like one or more XT-IDE V2 PCBs please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showwiki.php?title=XTIDE+Rev2 There are about 28 XT-IDE V2 PCBs left. At least 10 are committed at the moment. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 15:15:03 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_?= =?windows-1252?Q?ALL_TIME_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130409131238.B99301@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, MG wrote: > The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but, a model with no couch? THAT was sexy. Howzbout the "Workslate"? Epson RC-20? or even the HC-20 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 16:02:49 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:02:49 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51646E4F.2060906@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <51643573.2090803@sbcglobal.net> <51646E4F.2060906@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516481F9.7040300@sbcglobal.net> On 04/09/2013 03:38 PM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 17:36, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Because they can? They enjoy it. I believe that's the whole >> point of ClassiCMP, if I'm not mistaken... > > Did you miss the part where I said I run Tru64 UNIX myself? (And > the part, for that matter, that many --- over here, at least --- > are moving away from that platform. Or, actually, already moved > away.) Nope, I saw that. I only answered the question of why run EOL software? There was no other context/qualifiers in there. For businesses, correct, running unsupported hardware and software is a risk. For hobbyists like us, it's fun >>>> Dropping a quarter mil on a big server isn't usually done via >>>> ads in computer magazines. >>> >>> Are you now denying the existence of such ads? Also, I wouldn't >>> call (e.g.) an AlphaStation 200, Digital Personal WorkStation or >>> something else of (roughly) that proportion a "big server". >> >> Umm, "..isn't usually done..." does not equal denial. Notice the >> word "usually". > > It equaled none for me, because I never saw anything other than > those AlphaPC, AXPpci, etc. offerings (like I said at least twice > before). Maybe you should reread some posts? Nope. Read 'em all. Just because you didn't see any ads, doesn't mean they didn't exist. >> Well, depends upon the system. In this particular discussion, >> using a mainframe for SMB or home use is like hunting a squirrel >> witha gatling gun. > > What about getting any exposure to this platform at all? What > about allowing people to get acquainted with it? What about > allowing people the chance to port and develop software for > this platform? (See also the example I gave with VMS earlier.) That would fall more under hobbyist. >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never read Dave saying he despised >> the "little people" (nor anyone else, really) that you refer to. > > Then you probably didn't read this thread very well. > > - MG -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 9 15:20:01 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:20:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer In-Reply-To: <1365481722.72487.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Apr 8, 13 09:28:42 pm Message-ID: > > I am looking for a daisy wheel printer to buy An odd thing to desire.... > > I know I need one with a parallel/ Centronics port > but what else should I get? There were quite a few models with RS232 interfaces (including some 'KSR@ models with keyboards, effectively printing terminals). I would suggest that if the model you want turns up with an RS232 prt ratehr than a Centronics port, you grab it and eitehr link it to a serial port on your host or get a parallel-serial converter. I suspect those are lot easier to find than a partivular model of daisywheel printer. The famous models were the Diablo 630 and the Qume Sprint 5. Both are prett soild. Watch out for older models, some of which had a strange parallel interface with many mroe than 8 data lines -- you got to specify the caracter, carriage movement, etc on separate lines. Interfacing one of those would be 'fun'. I would also avoid the HP9871 in your case, for all I want one. Not only does it haev a strange interface, it also has a strange mechansim with a long 'ladder type' drive belt whcih will certainly have failed. Replacements do not exist. If possible get some spare Daisywheels and ribbons. The formerare certainly not easy to get now, the latter may be getting rarer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 9 15:23:44 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:23:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: <1365492039.97770.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> from "P Gebhardt" at Apr 9, 13 08:20:39 am Message-ID: > By the way, is anybody aware of schematics ever published by Fujitsu for th= > e hard drives or tape drives? They never seemed to be part of their manuals= > .=0A= Not applicaable to your problem, but somwhere I have the manual for a Fujitsu Eagle. It contains full schematics and block diagrams of the ASICs. I have a simialr manual for an 8" SMD drive, I think that may well be Fujitsu too, I would have to check. No idea about tape drives, but I can't see why they'd provide schematics for one and not the other. -tony From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 16:09:16 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 16:09:16 -0500 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: <51646E24.5030205@gmail.com> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <51646E24.5030205@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am reluctant to use the adjective sexy to describe a computer case, but in terms of attractive looking computer cases my list would be something like this (in no particular order): Apple Mac Cube BeBox Next Cube Amiga 3000 Desktop iMac G4 TI 99/4a Cray 2 Twentieth Anniversary Mac SGI Tezra Mindset Computer M1001 On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 2:38 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 4/9/2013 11:31 AM, MG wrote: > >> On 9-apr-2013 20:10, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> >>> Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & >>> Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely >>> on topic (Mac Cube). >>> And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting >>> read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No >>> bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... >>> If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) >>> >>> The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME >>> Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out >>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_** >>> computers_roundup/ >>> >> >> The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but the paupers >> didn't even mention /one/ SGI. How the hell is that possible? >> Even their saint Steve Jobs spoke well of SGI, very well actually. >> >> (Also, to hell with them and their multi-page layout. Are they so >> desperate to maximize their ad revenues that they have to resort >> to that?!) >> >> - MG >> > > I have to agree. It's a little more forgivable when you look at this being > a UK paper and they probably picked computers that were popular there. > I've never heard anyone call a Sinclair anything sexy. A paper in the US > would have a completely different list. To me the only one that really > belongs on that list is the NeXT. The Cray is nice but, such expensive > limited production stuff shouldn't really be considered. Otherwise it would > probably be impossible to pick ten. > From ats at offog.org Tue Apr 9 16:16:13 2013 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 22:16:13 +0100 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=A2?= The Register In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> (Dave Woyciesjes's message of "Tue, 09 Apr 2013 14:10:43 -0400") References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Dave Woyciesjes writes: > But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? There are plenty of machines that I find more fun to play with, but I think the Oric Atmos is hands-down the nicest-looking computer I own. Here's mine, next to a Model M keyboard for scale: http://offog.org/stuff/atmos.jpg -- Adam Sampson From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 16:16:57 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:16:57 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: <51646D88.6020105@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <51646D88.6020105@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I'd go with (in no particular order): - NeXT Cube (w/ Megapixel B&W display) - GRiD Compass - HP 9100 But then I am a bit odd, and apparently I have a thing for magnesium-alloy :). - Josh On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 04/09/2013 02:31 PM, MG wrote: > >> On 9-apr-2013 20:10, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> >>> Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & >>> Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely >>> on topic (Mac Cube). >>> And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting >>> read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No >>> bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... >>> If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) >>> >>> The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME >>> Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out >>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_** >>> computers_roundup/ >>> >>> >> The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but the paupers >> didn't even mention /one/ SGI. How the hell is that possible? >> Even their saint Steve Jobs spoke well of SGI, very well actually. >> > > Well, everyone has their own opinions, their own idea of what's > sexy. I asked for others suggestions, not bickering about what someone else > chose. > And yes, I do think SGI should have been represented. > > > (Also, to hell with them and their multi-page layout. Are they so >> desperate to maximize their ad revenues that they have to resort >> to that?!) >> >> > Maybe? I just think though that it;s easier to read that way, > instead of scrolling forever. > > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.**org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 9 16:20:07 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > There's some questionable choices on there... The Sinclair entries... and > the biggest of all... PS3? It's not even a proper computer. > It was until Sony robbed users of the "Other OS" option - a number of people ran Linux on them. I seem to recall the USAF running a big Beowulf cluster of PS3s running Linux, but my memory may be faulty. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 16:33:31 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 16:33:31 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Identifications_sought_=3A=AC=29?= In-Reply-To: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F643F60EE@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F643F60EE@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: Cynde, What was the significance of these systems to them in that original photo? Were they among the first Microsoft programmed systems? Were they just a random sampling of systems of the era? Just curious, they seem fairly random to me. - John On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Cynde Moya wrote: > I can tell you exactly what they are. > > Back row, L-R : Apple II (Serial no. A252-223242) with two Apple disk II > (Serial nos. 663608 and 1028507) and TMC S9 Picture Monitor (Serial no. > 1098) ; Intertec Superbrain (Serial no. 355129) [Replacing the original > photograph's Datapoint 8200]. > > Front row, L-R : Sanyo MBC-550 (Serial no. 18221141) with Panasonic RGB > monitor (Serial no. EC3430061) and keyboard (Serial no. 18221149) > [Replacing the original photograph's NEC PC-8001] ; Zenith Data Systems > Z-19 (Serial no. J128P106) ; Commodore Pet (Serial no. 0010850) ; and > TRS-80 I (Serial no. 355129) with monitor and expansion unit. > > Replacement computers are of similar form factor and also ran early > Microsoft software. > > Cynde Moya > Librarian/Archivist > Living Computer Museum > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Sam O'nella > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 1:51 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Identifications sought :?) > > I can only identify the easier ones. Likely a Zenith H-89 in the middle, > and I thought a TRS-80 Model I on the front right although the more I look > at that picture the less detail I can see. > > That front left one looks quite familiar though. Wish there was a bigger > picture out there. Love the remake though. > > > On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/04/gates_allen_reshoot_photo/ > > > > ? > > One of the most iconic photos from the history of Microsoft, featuring > > a lanky young Bill Gates perched next to his coding mentor (the way he > > tells it) Paul Allen, has been recreated at Seattle's Living Computing > > Museum. > > [...] > > Among the systems still surrounding them are an Apple II with twin > > drives and an ancient monitor in the top left of the picture, with a > > Commodore Pet below Bill Gates. Readers who can identify the other > > systems, please let us know in Comments. > > ? > > > > -- > > Liam Proven . Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk . GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com . Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 . Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 9 16:33:31 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:33:31 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51647136.2010903@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> <51645BFD.9010304@xs4all.nl> <51645FAA.30306@neurotica.com> <51647136.2010903@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5164892B.4000307@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2013 03:51 PM, MG wrote: >>> IBM is convinced that their mainframe, although at some point >>> in the future virtually no one will have heard of it, will >>> somehow remain desirable. (Invisible telepathic marketing, >>> perhaps?) >> >> Is this another expression of being "critically interested"? > > How many have heard of "z" 'out there'? Let's say, how about in > the now and present (that's the year 2013, just so you know) and > all those below the age of 25? Or let's say below 45. > > How many have had the chance to use a "z" in the education mills? > How many have had the chance to see, let alone use, a "z" on or > at their job? How many people read about "z" in current computer > publications? How many public forums are there about "z"? How > many public remote access "z" systems are there? To just name > (or actually, rehash) a few things. > > I'm sure you'd rather opt for the "yer a TROLL" name-calling > once more, instead of answering. No, here's an answer: WHO CARES? Not me, and not IBM. You surely do, though. Perhaps this is an emotional issue for you? >> No. To be WRONG, you should proceed to roughly equate "p" to >> "z" in any way. > > LOL. I fail to see why this is amusing. You know, them being DIFFERENT and all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 16:39:20 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:39:20 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51647136.2010903@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> <51645BFD.9010304@xs4all.nl> <51645FAA.30306@neurotica.com> <51647136.2010903@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51648A88.2090503@sbcglobal.net> On 04/09/2013 03:51 PM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 20:36, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 04/09/2013 02:20 PM, MG wrote: >>> IBM is convinced that their mainframe, although at some point >>> in the future virtually no one will have heard of it, will >>> somehow remain desirable. (Invisible telepathic marketing, >>> perhaps?) >> >> Is this another expression of being "critically interested"? > > How many have heard of "z" 'out there'? Let's say, how about in > the now and present (that's the year 2013, just so you know) and > all those below the age of 25? Or let's say below 45. Read a number of articles & what not about the z series over the course of the past year & more. And I'm 38, not sure how that is relevant, but you did ask in your survey. > How many have had the chance to use a "z" in the education mills? Not that I am aware of. I have, in my 12 years at the current job, used a terminal emulator to access an AS/400 system, but I have no idea what IBM system it's actually running on. > How many have had the chance to see, let alone use, a "z" on or > at their job? Nope. I would love to take a tour of the data centers here though. > How many people read about "z" in current computer > publications? Yes. > How many public forums are there about "z"? Don't know. Never looked. > How > many public remote access "z" systems are there? To just name > (or actually, rehash) a few things. Hmm, that's a fuzzy question. Is using an ATM that sends commands to a z series count as public access? Or do you mena using a terminal emulator to use it? > I'm sure you'd rather opt for the "yer a TROLL" name-calling > once more, instead of answering. Nah, past that. :) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Apr 9 16:40:05 2013 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 18:40:05 -0300 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time Message-ID: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> To complement the thread "The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register", we have > http://www.chassis-plans.com/blog/2013/04/04/the-worst-computers-of-all-time/ Any such list is necessarily very subjective, but I can think of lots of machines that were worse than the ones indicated here. And not all of them would be consumer computers either - just because you paid a lot for something didn't mean it would be good. Still, I liked the presentation. -- Jecel From colineby at isallthat.com Tue Apr 9 17:10:52 2013 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:10:52 +0100 Subject: System 36 SSP 5.25" Media In-Reply-To: <51647375.6020104@neurotica.com> References: <47173197-9F9F-4F6A-86B9-10781F2C8F7F@isallthat.com> <51647375.6020104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <8DD48080-4503-478B-B0AD-FF69B501A916@isallthat.com> Thanks very much indeed! On 9 Apr 2013, at 21:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/09/2013 03:15 PM, Colin Eby wrote: >> Every couple of years I throw this one out there. Would anyone have a >> copy of the media for an IBM System/36 5363 -- that the second >> version of the 5.25" distribution. I'd love to get my hands on a >> copy if anyone has such a thing, either physically or as an image >> set. > > I believe my local friend Eric might have this, as I'm pretty sure he > has one of those machines. He's on this list, but is super busy. I > will ping him privately to see. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 17:34:56 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 22:34:56 +0000 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <516470B6.9030905@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Dave Woyciesjes" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 09/04/2013 20:49:10 Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > But to be fair, has Tony Smith (the author) seen any of the big toys >we love? A better title, I'd say, would be one where he specified this >was _his_ list... But I digress, picking nits. :) Well he does have a Cray, but ANY medium to large mainframe of the 1960's 70's or 80's is sexier than all the rest. Lets face it the front panel from a large 360 is sexier than most of those.... When the boxes with the support processor and no proper panel came out it was so disappointing. http://history.cs.ncl.ac.uk/anniversaries/40th/images/ibm360_672/slide20.jpg http://history.cs.ncl.ac.uk/anniversaries/40th/images/ibm360_672/26.jpg and too think as an Undergraduate I was allowed to sit in that chair and type into that console..... Dave G4UGM > BeBox? I don't have a mental image. As for Macs (of all ages), the >_only_ one I would choose would be the Cube. > A Sun Ultra 1 may not be the sexiest, but I'd wager is up there. >But lest we forget another sexy beast, the IBM z series mainframe. Not >I'm not screwing around, with the other thread. I realy do like the >looks of it: >https://www.computerworld.com.au/slideshow/354082/pictures_ibm_new_system_z_mainframe/?image=5 > >On 04/09/2013 03:10 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>>The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME >>>Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out >>>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_roundup/ >>> > > >-- --- Dave Woyciesjes >--- ICQ# 905818 >--- AIM - woyciesjes >--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ >--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > >"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." >"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 17:55:53 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:55:53 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <516481F9.7040300@sbcglobal.net> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <51643573.2090803@sbcglobal.net> <51646E4F.2060906@xs4all.nl> <516481F9.7040300@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51649C79.6020307@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 23:02, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Just because you didn't see any ads, doesn't mean they didn't exist. How much good did that do for Alpha in the end? > That would fall more under hobbyist. With very palatable benefits, but I guess the /little people/ were also despised by DEC to some degree. Well, look where DEC is now. When will they learn? For man it's /a bit/ too late now. Mean- while, I'm called a "troll", but I'm probably more annoyed by the Googles and Microsofts of this world than many of you combined. Now we're entering the x86/ARM bi-polar world. So, where's IBM --- one of the last big players with alternatives --- to give them hell...? - MG From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 18:31:40 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 19:31:40 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5164A4DC.2030505@verizon.net> On 04/09/2013 12:08 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > allison wrote: > [RX02 or RX50] >>> Mass storage for my system is another area I need to spend more thought on, for now I was planning to stay with the RL drives I got with the case. >>> >> In the PDP11 world its easy to build a system that forgets portable IO. >> A reminder PDP-11 as not a PC and even a 256kb floppy is viable storage >> as RT11 fits on it. > I'm not sure what I'd need it for? There is no other system within walking distance that would understand the floppy format natively. > Any file I/O thus most likely will happen across the Internet (involving a PC anyway), so I hoped I'd be fine with the TU58 emulation software discussed below. I use the PC to make floppies (RX50, RX33 and RX23) and my S100 CP/M system will do RX01 transfers. But, I have multiple Qbus 11s and most all have floppies so portability between them is handy. (or a 50ft serial cable). > >>> RL packs were over 160$ new (...) >> cables, terminators and those annoying and scarce drive ID plugs. > Terminator: check. > ID plugs 0 and 1: check. > Cables: no check yet but inbound. > >> If anything the floppy is always a must on my systems as all my diags and >> base RT11 systems are on that media (RX01, RX02, RX50, RX33, RX23). > Are they also available in TU58 (file) format? Generally yes. TU58 file format is variable in that the device appears to the system as a blocked volume like disk (though slower). The transfer between the TU58 and its host is serial data and the host request block(s) N and not that much different than IDE or other intelligent disk system that uses a logial block numbering system. The tu58 does not know nor care what is in the 512 byte block. I've run CP/M from TU58. > >> A viable uVAX is more than 150mb, (more like 300-500 for V7), >> a loaded PDP11 is 30MB. Just difference is OS utilization. > So I guess it all boils down on what one wants to run on it. > I've got one functional RD53 in it right now, and a second one I hope to revive at some point in the future. Thats plenty of space for PDP-11 OSs. Likely the bad one has the stuck head problem easy to fix. just upen it up and unstick it. There are more detailed instruction out there. I'v edone it many times and forget the whole you need a clean room thing, My first salvage is near 25years old now. >> I would not covet a large drive unless you had the application that >> required it. > I thought that we here run large drives just for the kicks of it?! You can till you have to format or defrag it. I keep a stack of sub 1gb (from 50mb and up) SCSI drives for that reasonas well as a major heap of MFM drives (St412s 10mb, St225s 20mb and Quantum D540s 31mb). I just insert them and image copy to them as backup. >>> I do have a TQK(mumble) board already (which was originally also intended for the VSII), but no drive yet. >> Save it as loading diags from TK50 is both slow and painful assuming the system can boot a tK50 (not guaranteed). > ?? (not understanding the above). I should save the controller because the whole subsystem is bad? I meant save it for backups or other large data needs as running diags off it will be painfully slow. If its bad save it for parts, they are scarce, usually the controller is fine and the drive is borked. > [core] >> The older LSI11 systems had it if there was a call for non volatile >> memory, the cost was high. >> I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle >> time than Ram of >> the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on the day was >> under 1us and dropping. > So thus probably not very prevalent and not easy to find nowadays. Ho hum. > I've also already found out that the memory board I'll be getting is 512k_Bytes_ (256kW) and does _not_ have BBU support. ?? BBU?? Unless you mean BBS7 (Io tends to use that). > [OS question] >> Start with RT11 as a base os and it will allow you to test and get comfortable at lower >> cost to learn. It will be transferable knowledge to RSTS or RSX, may help with getting Unix >> on the machine. > Agreed, sounds like a good starting point. > For Unix See PUPS, Pdp-11 Unix Preservation Society. http://minnie.tuhs.org/PUPS/ One last thing... Heat! Qbus 11s produce a bit of that. That means fans must all work, the location must not be dusty enough to load up the boards and local temperature not excessively hot. I fried a 11/23 board while working at the DEC Mill when they had an air conditioner fail for the office area, when the room hit 96 (36c), cpu went away, I had plenty of spares. So reliability and room temps are coupled. Qbus 11s are fairly tolerent of conditions but any you find are going to be old and may not like additional stress. Allison From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 18:37:11 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 01:37:11 +0200 Subject: Tru64 Software Products Library In-Reply-To: References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <20121128142027.U23212@shell.lmi.net> <20121128150633.S23212@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5164A627.1050800@xs4all.nl> On 29-nov-2012 13:14, Ola Hughson wrote: > 2012/11/29 Benjamin Huntsman : >> Any Alpha and/or Tru64 fans on the list? >> >> Anyone have a really recent Software Products Library (May 2010) set >> they'd like part with for some consideration, and/or, a really old set >> (jan 98, oct 97, or jul 97)? > > -> Also woul like to get original isc/s for tru64 ;) > (also, OpenVMS would be awesome.) I have one, boxed, HP OpenVMS Alpha V8.4 from July 2010. Interested? - MG From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 18:56:55 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 19:56:55 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51647136.2010903@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> <51645BFD.9010304@xs4all.nl> <51645FAA.30306@neurotica.com> <51647136.2010903@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <8E522232-E921-4F84-A65C-C06F60561693@gmail.com> On Apr 9, 2013, at 3:51 PM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 20:36, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 04/09/2013 02:20 PM, MG wrote: >>> IBM is convinced that their mainframe, although at some point >>> in the future virtually no one will have heard of it, will >>> somehow remain desirable. (Invisible telepathic marketing, >>> perhaps?) >> >> Is this another expression of being "critically interested"? > > How many have heard of "z" 'out there'? Let's say, how about in > the now and present (that's the year 2013, just so you know) and > all those below the age of 25? Or let's say below 45. I have. I originally ended up looking up its predecessor (S/390) when IBM started supporting S/390 Linux back in... the late '90s? Early 2000s? > How many have had the chance to use a "z" in the education mills? Nope. > How many have had the chance to see, let alone use, a "z" on or > at their job? No, but I don't work at a bank or a stock exchange. I once worked at a health insurance company that might have had one, but I certainly never had direct contact with it. > How many people read about "z" in current computer > publications? I don't read current computer publications. Blogs, yes, I've seen it mentioned (usually in conjunction with the software patent nonsense they've been pulling with Hercules). > How many public forums are there about "z"? I know there are public forums on zos.efglobe.com. It appears to be down at the moment, but I haven't seen any explanation of why. > How many public remote access "z" systems are there? Same place: zos.efglobe.com has a public-access system (running z/OS 1.6, which is a bit outdated). It's the only free one I've seen; any others are usually rentals of time on a system because the normal assumption is that you'll be using it for commercial purposes. My two cents (and PLEASE don't make this all emotionally-charged, because it isn't): The mainframe market has established customers (mainly banks) who will continue to buy IBM mainframes because the software that they've invested DECADES into still runs on modern IBM mainframes because IBM is heavily invested in backwards compatibility. They fund IBM's mainframe budget because mainframes are a low-volume, niche industry with high margins. They're analogous to supercomputers, except they trade raw number crunching ability for sophisticated high-bandwidth I/O systems that can support incredible sustained data rates; it's a feature set that no one except very large businesses tend to need. Those very large businesses will train entry-level programmers on their mainframes, so there's very little need for a presence in universities; additionally, the sales channels are essentially established through pedigree. If you have enough money and the requirement for high data throughput, IBM will cold call you. To use your analogy, it is actually a lot like a door-to-door vacuum salesman, except in this case, the salesman already knows you need a vacuum and is probably one of the only people in the world who can sell you the right one. And to address a previous point: yes, it is the same thing that the NonStop and VMS people say when they point out that they're used around the world in stock markets and banks. They're also all mostly correct; NonStop has about the same customer type as IBM does for its mainframes. VMS is maybe a step below that, but there are still a lot of organizations using it because they have a lot invested in VMS-based software (or because it's actually the best tool for their particular task and someone who specified the system actually knew something about VMS). Admittedly, that's basically three major cases of vendor lock- in, which I'm generally not a fan of because it leads to stagnation. Mainframes aren't any more dead than Formula One racing is, but it's understandable that you might think so. The same thing COULD be done with a giant cluster of x86 machines, but IBM has spent 50+ years making a single architecture with the total package of reliability, scalability and pedigree. It's simply an easier call for gigantic enterprise operations to buy a total package that has it all than try to, say, make Linux be fault-tolerant enough to run a whole international bank. Some banks do it, but plenty of others don't, and it doesn't take much to sustain an industry that runs on that much margin. - Dave From kfergason at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 19:00:03 2013 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 19:00:03 -0500 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > To complement the thread "The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The > Register", we have > >> http://www.chassis-plans.com/blog/2013/04/04/the-worst-computers-of-all-time/ > > Any such list is necessarily very subjective, but I can think of lots of > machines that were worse than the ones indicated here. And not all of > them would be consumer computers either - just because you paid a lot > for something didn't mean it would be good. > > Still, I liked the presentation. > > -- Jecel Worse is subjective as you say, but here is my example. TI 99/4a. Cliff Click gave up in disgust trying to program this thing. nuf said. Kelly From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 19:04:30 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 17:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H780 power supply Message-ID: <1365552270.75693.YahooMailNeo@web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Started tearing into the 11/780 and pulled the 11/03 and the RX01 out to clean and test. Looks like the PS is bad in the 11/03. It powers on and the fans run because they are AC but I am getting sometimes 4.5 volts on the 5v line and 0 volts on the 12v. I have 34 volts coming out of the diode rectifier. I suspect switching transistors. Anyone have experience with these? Brian. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Apr 9 19:05:44 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:05:44 +1200 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Yes, as you say these lists are pretty shallow and highly subjective. The problem when people talk about "worst" what does that actually mean? Worst keyboard, worst computer to repair, worst reliability, worst supported, worst value for money...the list goes on. Terry (Tez) On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > To complement the thread "The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The > Register", we have > > > > http://www.chassis-plans.com/blog/2013/04/04/the-worst-computers-of-all-time/ > > Any such list is necessarily very subjective, but I can think of lots of > machines that were worse than the ones indicated here. And not all of > them would be consumer computers either - just because you paid a lot > for something didn't mean it would be good. > > Still, I liked the presentation. > > -- Jecel > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 9 19:10:09 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:10:09 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51649C79.6020307@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <51643573.2090803@sbcglobal.net> <51646E4F.2060906@xs4all.nl> <516481F9.7040300@sbcglobal.net> <51649C79.6020307@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5164ADE1.4060601@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2013 06:55 PM, MG wrote: > Mean-while, I'm called a "troll", You forgot "CLUELESS". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 9 19:33:35 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:33:35 -0700 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 19:41:20 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 01:41:20 +0100 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: References: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 10 April 2013 01:00, Kelly Fergason wrote: > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: >> To complement the thread "The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The >> Register", we have >> >>> http://www.chassis-plans.com/blog/2013/04/04/the-worst-computers-of-all-time/ >> >> Any such list is necessarily very subjective, but I can think of lots of >> machines that were worse than the ones indicated here. And not all of >> them would be consumer computers either - just because you paid a lot >> for something didn't mean it would be good. >> >> Still, I liked the presentation. >> >> -- Jecel > > Worse is subjective as you say, but here is my example. > > TI 99/4a. Cliff Click gave up in disgust trying to program this > thing. nuf said. You do have a point. Interesting architecture & so on, but... registers in external DRAM? Really? They were appallingly slow. My experience of them is from school; bucking the British nationwide trend to buy the excellent but expensive BBC Micro (usually with Microvitec CUB monitors and possibly some Econet-networked floppy drives, if you were lucky), my school "upgraded" from 4 Commodore PET 4032s with a single shared IEEE-bus dual-5?" floppy drive to a room full of TI99/4as with black & white portable TVs and cassette recorders. It was right at the end of the 99/4a's life and I suspect that they were /really/ cheap. If they'd invested in the Extended BASIC cartridge for them all, they might not have been quite so bad. Monitors would have been nice, too. But as it is - gods, they were awful. Slow, terribly slow, a pretty poor BASIC, sluggish storage. Nice keyboards, though. They weren't bad /looking/ but they were not fun to use. I did my 'O'-level Computer Studies homework on my Spectrum at home. :?) IIRC, looking back 30 years, I think I wrote a text-mode orrery program, followed by a text-adventure game, complete with save-game functionality, movable objects and a basic two-word-command parser. I was quite proud of that. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 9 19:45:26 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:45:26 -0700 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: <1365492039.97770.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <5161BBC6.3080603@pico-systems.com> <1365492039.97770.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5164B626.1090201@sydex.com> On 04/09/2013 12:20 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > By the way, is anybody aware of schematics ever published by Fujitsu for the hard drives or tape drives? They never seemed to be part of their manuals. > The only exception I saw so far was the M2435 tape drive labeled as Unisys BT3200 drives. I did put these schematics on bitsavers a couple of years ago. All I've ever seen for the 2444 is the CE manual which, while it's pretty good in terms to telling you where and what things are, does not include schematics. I suspect it's the "if X doesn't work, replace board Y'sort. Very useful, however, in its description of the rather extensive self-diagnostics. I do have a scanned copy of the manual--I may have gotten it from bitsavers. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 19:49:53 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 01:49:53 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 9 April 2013 19:46, Jason McBrien wrote: > Remove the ZX81, whose keyboard disqualifies it from any list of best > anything. > > Substitute in the Thinking Machines TM-1. I had to Google that to recall what it looked like, but you make a good point, sir! I think the Spectrum and the ZX81 were combined, which means you'd have to drop something else. I'd nominate the PS3. The PS2 was more iconic, if anything, and in terms of actual construction, sod the PS2, give me a PS/2 any day. Model 80 from choice, probably. :?) The ZX81 and to a greater extend the Spectrum and the QL were design classics, though, with an iconic look. Yes, the ZX81 was rubbish - but it looked a lot better than the ZX80. It was the 81 that introduced the trademark Sinclair Black Slab look. What the marketdroids would call a "design language" these days. I am with Bill Hicks on the best uses of marketdroids. A friend of mine has a Raspberry Pi and a Sinclair QL case that he got off eBay, already empty. He plans to design enough interface circuitry to fit the Pi inside the QL and have the original keyboard work. I have suggested using the rest of the space for a PSU, powered USB2 hub, possibly an internal speaker(or pair thereof) and see if he can conceal a card-reader behind the Microdrive slots. If he does it, I will covet the result. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 19:50:33 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:50:33 -0400 Subject: H780 power supply In-Reply-To: <1365552270.75693.YahooMailNeo@web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1365552270.75693.YahooMailNeo@web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <304E0670-D5C1-4E35-A82E-694DB73DFB8A@gmail.com> On Apr 9, 2013, at 20:04, Brian Roth wrote: > Started tearing into the 11/780 and pulled the 11/03 and the RX01 out to clean and test. Looks like the PS is bad in the 11/03. It powers on and the fans run because they are AC but I am getting sometimes 4.5 volts on the 5v line and 0 volts on the 12v. I have 34 volts coming out of the diode rectifier. I suspect switching transistors. > > Anyone have experience with these? Not H780s specifically, but switching supplies in general. Are you putting any kind of load on the supply? Lots of switchers don't like running without some minimum load (I think DEC often specced the minimum load in the manual). For low voltage out of the rectifier diodes, the switching transistors aren't a bad bet. Filter caps are also a possible culprit, though they're more likely to fail open or lose capacitance. Check them with an ohmmeter anyway. - Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 19:53:11 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 19:53:11 -0500 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5164B7F7.5060303@gmail.com> On 04/09/2013 04:40 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > To complement the thread "The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The > Register", we have > >> http://www.chassis-plans.com/blog/2013/04/04/the-worst-computers-of-all-time/ Interesting list. I really liked my Apple ///, but I can confirm "circuit boards warped": http://www.patooie.com/temp/aiii.jpg :-) (it ran quite happily like that) cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 20:00:27 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 02:00:27 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_Th?= =?windows-1252?Q?e_Register?= In-Reply-To: <20130409124332.D99301@shell.lmi.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <20130409124332.D99301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 9 April 2013 21:00, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Jason McBrien wrote: >> Remove the ZX81, whose keyboard disqualifies it from any list of best >> anything. > > That's just a decorative PICTURE of a keyboard. > Like "serving suggestion" on a box of cereal. > It also provides some protection against scraping > up the bottom of the door that it is used with. > If you are going to do anything that involves input, > then you would need to connect an actual keyboard. > > I once sold a ragged old disk pack at a computer swap. One > that had seen a lot of use being passed around a classroom. > My assistant stuck a Timex between the platters, and changed > the sign to read "Mass storage for Sinclairs. Holds four." > > I don't know from "sexiest", but it was the funniest computer of its time. Hey, you, get off Sir Clive and the beloved ZX boxen! I still own at least 2 Spectrum 128s and any year now I will dig them out and get them working again. The thing about the ZX81 is something that you chaps over in the Colonies might miss. The were affordable. Britain in 1981 was *poor*. Not Developing World poor, but poor. The Apple II cost about 4 or 5 months' salary for the average professional man. That is excluding floppy drives and a monitor - add them and you were talking in the region of a years' salary. Only the wealthy could afford an exotic expensive toy like one of those for home use. If you had the money and any taste, you'd probably buy a used Ferrari instead, frankly. Compare with the Harley-Davidson: a solid bike in the US; a vastly expensive exotic import here; one of them, new, costs about as much as /two/ vastly-better-specified Japanese bikes. Three or four really nice bikes if you are prepared to buy used machines - whereas used Harleys here cost only slightly less than new ones. My 160mph+ 147bhp Kawasaki ZZR-1100 cost me ?4000, 2nd owner, 4500 miles on the clock, immaculate condition and a custom paint job. (!ZX 11 Ninja" in the US. As featured in Babylon 5. The fastest bike in the world when I bought mine.) A basic HD cruiser, no extras, would be about ?13,000-?14,000 at the same time. I literally could have bought a Kawasaki *and* a Honda *and* a Yamaha *and* a Suzuki for the same money and had a whole stable. The Vic-20 was about ?300 - ?400. The C64, when it appeared, was more. ?500 or so in the early days, I think. The ZX81 was ?100. About a tenth or a fifteenth the cost of an Apple II - the main competition of the time. Yes, sure, an Acorn Atom was a vastly better 8-bit machine at the time, but they were really expensive, too - 3 or 4 times the price, I think. The ZX81 was built down to a price. No sound, no colour, no graphics, but a complete functional computer that you could use and learn BASIC on. You could load and save your work and it was an actual computer that you could *own* for yourself for a couple of weeks' pay. American equivalents ranged from the cost of a foreign holiday for a whole family to the price of an extension on your house, or a quite nice car. And it actually looked smart and modern and distinctive and different, even then, from all the beige boxes. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 20:04:59 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 02:04:59 +0100 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10 April 2013 01:33, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- > > What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? Joke, N entirely SFW: http://www.welookdoyou.com/fufme/ Real: http://www.gizmag.com/lovepalz-iphone-teledildonics-app/24254/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/12/sxsw_teledildonics/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Apr 9 20:13:08 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:13:08 +1200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5164ADE1.4060601@neurotica.com> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <51643573.2090803@sbcglobal.net> <51646E4F.2060906@xs4all.nl> <516481F9.7040300@sbcglobal.net> <51649C79.6020307@xs4all.nl> <5164ADE1.4060601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >but IBM has >spent 50+ years making a single architecture with the total >package of reliability, scalability and pedigree. It's simply >an easier call for gigantic enterprise operations to buy a >total package that has it all than try to, say, make Linux be >fault-tolerant enough to run a whole international bank. Some >banks do it, but plenty of others don't, and it doesn't take >much to sustain an industry that runs on that much margin. I'm not going to argue any of the points in this thread because I know little about the technologies (apart from what I've gleaned here) but I'm sure you've all seen these rather amusing ads from IBM. I guess they relate to this conversation. http://youtu.be/Kbn_MUfTG0E (The Invasion - IBM Virtualization Engine) http://youtu.be/rmxPfZtV6w0 (who stole our servers) http://youtu.be/73bMSNPc3Ak (IBM e-server commercial) Terry (Tez) From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 20:17:48 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 18:17:48 -0700 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: <5164B626.1090201@sydex.com> References: <5161BBC6.3080603@pico-systems.com> <1365492039.97770.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <5164B626.1090201@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Apr 9, 2013 6:12 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > All I've ever seen for the 2444 is the CE manual which, while it's pretty good in terms to telling you where and what things are, does not include schematics. I suspect it's the "if X doesn't work, replace board Y'sort. Very useful, however, in its description of the rather extensive self-diagnostics. > > I do have a scanned copy of the manual--I may have gotten it from bitsavers. Here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/B03P-5325-0100A_244X_Jun87.pdf From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Tue Apr 9 21:19:05 2013 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 22:19:05 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_Th?= =?windows-1252?Q?e_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <20130409124332.D99301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I agree that the Sinclairs belong on the list. They have a very sleek, distinct look that certainly counts as sexy insofar as any bit industrial design can count as sexy. Personally, my biggest problems with the list are the inclusion of the C128 and the PS3. The C128 looks "sexy" only compared to other Commodores (industrial design was never a Commodore strong point) and is otherwise a pretty bland beige slab. The PS3 is OK looking but not really a computer and not even the best-looking Sony game console (which would be the PS2) Mike From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 9 21:20:22 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 19:20:22 -0700 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: References: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <8FF46AE1-111A-4FC6-BAD5-7DE58CC39896@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Apr 9, at 5:41 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 10 April 2013 01:00, Kelly Fergason wrote: >> >> TI 99/4a. Cliff Click gave up in disgust trying to program this >> thing. nuf said. > > You do have a point. Interesting architecture & so on, but... > registers in external DRAM? Really? The "registers in external (D)RAM" was not a problem, that was a characteristic (and feature) of the predecessor TI 990 minicomputer architecture. It meant the instruction set had the efficiency of a very orthogonal set of 16 registers to work with, but didn't have to save & restore those registers across function call & return, you just changed the workspace pointer and had a whole new set of registers. This was great for modern stack-based languages and for process context-switching (if you were doing that). It was far nicer than a two-accumulator architecture such as the 6502 or the mish-mash register set of the 8080/Z80. I worked with the 990 mini and 9900 microprocs at the instruction level and, in that regard (and as much as I remember), I liked the arch. more than the PDP-11. I didn't directly work with the TI-99/4 but from what I read the problem with it was it took what was a lovely 16-bit microprocessor and embedded it in a crippled memory/support environment. Apparently only a few hundred words of RAM were directly on the processor bus - that mem being intended for the workspace/registers (and presumably this actually was static ram, not DRAM) - while the majority of RAM was accessed through a slower, secondary, 8-bit bus. > They were appallingly slow. ... From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Tue Apr 9 21:20:50 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 19:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1365560450.26305.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- >> I am looking for a daisy wheel printer to buy > > An odd thing to desire.... not really, I already have two pen plotters (Desktop and cutter) I've ordered a dot-matrix printer > >> >> I know I need one with a parallel/ Centronics port >> but what else should I get? > > There were quite a few models with RS232 interfaces (including some 'KSR@ > models with keyboards, effectively printing terminals). I would suggest > that if the model you want turns up with an RS232 prt ratehr than a > Centronics port, you grab it and eitehr link it to a serial port on your > host or get a parallel-serial converter. I suspect those are lot easier > to find than a partivular model of daisywheel printer. thanks for the info > > The famous models were the Diablo 630 and the Qume Sprint 5. Both are > prett soild. > > If possible get some spare Daisywheels and ribbons. The formerare > certainly not easy to get now, the latter may be getting rarer. ok, the supplies could issue :( I dont really need a daisywheel printer, but something like currently on ebay are trash-80/Atari daisywheel printers :( > > -tony --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 PGP ID: A7EF6006 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 21:29:13 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 22:29:13 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > > I had to Google that to recall what it looked like, but you make a > good point, sir! > I even got the model wrong, I had it in my head it was the TM1. Actually, it's either the CM-2 or CM-5. Those beasts look like they are trying to figure out how to take over the world just sitting there. > > A friend of mine has a Raspberry Pi and a Sinclair QL case that he got > off eBay, already empty. He plans to design enough interface circuitry > to fit the Pi inside the QL and have the original keyboard work. I > have suggested using the rest of the space for a PSU, powered USB2 > hub, possibly an internal speaker(or pair thereof) and see if he can > conceal a card-reader behind the Microdrive slots. > That's pretty slick. The QL is a beautiful machine. I had a Timex/Sinclair 1000 - the USian version of the '81. I remember being disappointed at running out of memory a quarter of the way through trying to write a hangman program. The 16K expansion pack kinda ruined the sleekness of the unit :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 9 21:36:49 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 22:36:49 -0400 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5164D041.5070808@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2013 09:04 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 10 April 2013 01:33, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- >> >> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? > > Joke, N entirely SFW: > http://www.welookdoyou.com/fufme/ > > Real: > http://www.gizmag.com/lovepalz-iphone-teledildonics-app/24254/ > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/12/sxsw_teledildonics/ The latter company was started by an acquaintance of mine, in the building where I worked at the time. The people I saw parading in and out of there were really quite frightening. They didn't get very far. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 22:14:41 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:14:41 -0700 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5164D921.7000001@gmail.com> On 4/9/2013 6:04 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 10 April 2013 01:33, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- >> >> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? > Joke, N entirely SFW: > http://www.welookdoyou.com/fufme/ > > Real: > http://www.gizmag.com/lovepalz-iphone-teledildonics-app/24254/ > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/12/sxsw_teledildonics/ > > > There is of course always this too http://public.enemy.org/zt_pdp11.jpg From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 22:19:29 2013 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:19:29 +1000 Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?RE:_Re:_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_._The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <20130409124332.D99301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5164da3f.ca00450a.3e92.4e4d@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Kerpan Sent: Wednesday, 10 April 2013 12:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME . The Register > I agree that the Sinclairs belong on the list. They have a very sleek, distinct look that certainly counts as sexy insofar as any bit industrial design can count as sexy. Personally, my biggest > problems with the list are the inclusion of the C128 and the PS3. The C128 looks "sexy" only compared to other Commodores (industrial design was never a Commodore strong point) and is otherwise a > pretty bland beige slab. The PS3 is OK looking but not really a computer and not even the best-looking Sony game console (which would be the PS2) Commodore's CBM-II range is probably on the top of my list for "sexiest". Lance From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 23:53:01 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:53:01 -0500 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <5164D921.7000001@gmail.com> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> <5164D921.7000001@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:14 PM, mc68010 wrote: > > There is of course always this too http://public.enemy.org/zt_**pdp11.jpg > ..and this is why I hesitate to buy used DEC equipment.. But we all know since the dawn of personal computing it's been plagued by sex and our dashing good looks http://mentalfloss.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_640x430/public/bill-gates-1983_6.jpg It practically screams (with a bit of cracking in the voice) "You're welcome ladies!.." From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 00:18:44 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 22:18:44 -0700 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> <5164D921.7000001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5164F634.30007@gmail.com> On 4/9/2013 9:53 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > But we all know since the dawn of personal computing it's been plagued > by sex and our dashing good looks > http://mentalfloss.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_640x430/public/bill-gates-1983_6.jpg > It practically screams (with a bit of cracking in the voice) "You're > welcome ladies!.." Has that picture ever been explained ? I know Gate's like to joke about it now but, what is the story behind it ? Were they just messing around between more serious typical corporate shots ? From amh at POBOX.COM Tue Apr 9 19:27:54 2013 From: amh at POBOX.COM (Andrew Hoerter) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:27:54 -0400 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 1:59 AM, Jerry Wright wrote: > Some of the their workstations where Sun SPARC's and later they built their > own Intel based desk top systems. These where very nice systems. Had all for > the latest Video, SCSI, Dual Processors, at that time. They ran NT with their > software. I still have 2 running at work. They will probably out live me. > (None with their software) TD-30 and TDZ-300. The latter is a Dual Pentium > PRO. I once worked in a lab that had an Intergraph x86/NT machine for 3D modelling -- from what I remember, it supposedly had a very complete/performant implementation of OpenGL compared to other machines of the era. The hardware itself seemed robust and well put together. It was around this time (late 90's-ish) that SGI made a devil's bargain with Microsoft to adopt Windows NT and co-develop a new graphics API ("Fahrenheit"), which marked the beginning of their rapid decline into irrelevance. -Andy From amh at POBOX.COM Tue Apr 9 20:33:01 2013 From: amh at POBOX.COM (Andrew Hoerter) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:33:01 -0400 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Honestly, I'm really surprised by the list. I was surprised first by the > C-128, and even more surprised by the time I got to #10. I didn't take time > to see if they listed criteria for the choices, but I find the machines > selected to be odd. I for one would have put a BeBox in the list (and I've > never even seen one). I'd have likely also included the G5 PowerMac (and > current Mac Pro's) for their case. Surely the Connection Machine warrants a spot on that list, as well. -Andy From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Apr 10 01:25:56 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:25:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config Message-ID: allison wrote: > > On 04/09/2013 12:08 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > > I'm not sure what I'd need it for? There is no other system within walking distance that would understand the floppy format natively. > > Any file I/O thus most likely will happen across the Internet (involving a PC anyway), so I hoped I'd be fine with the TU58 emulation software discussed below. > > I use the PC to make floppies (RX50, RX33 and RX23) and my S100 CP/M system will do RX01 transfers. > But, I have multiple Qbus 11s and most all have floppies so portability between them is handy. (or a 50ft serial cable). > >> If anything the floppy is always a must on my systems as all my diags and > >> base RT11 systems are on that media (RX01, RX02, RX50, RX33, RX23). > > Are they also available in TU58 (file) format? > Generally yes. TU58 file format is variable in that the device appears to the system as > a blocked volume like disk (though slower). The transfer between the TU58 and > its host is serial data and the host request block(s) N and not that > much different than IDE or other intelligent disk system that uses a logial block numbering > system. The tu58 does not know nor care what is in the 512 byte block. I've run CP/M from TU58. ok, then TU58 emulation is, as I had hoped, going to float the boat for me, at least until either more machines or media to be read crop up here. > >> A viable uVAX is more than 150mb, (more like 300-500 for V7), > >> a loaded PDP11 is 30MB. Just difference is OS utilization. > > So I guess it all boils down on what one wants to run on it. > > I've got one functional RD53 in it right now, and a second one I hope to revive at some point in the future. > > Thats plenty of space for PDP-11 OSs. Unfortunately I have no sound way to (mechanically) _mount_ and power those tiny little 5,25" disks in the '11 rack, that's why they're staying in the BA123. I forgot the 300MB ESDI disk I got from a listmember together with a Webster Qbus controller, I'll use that one if I ever want to run a large OS on the VSII. > Likely the bad one has the stuck head problem > easy to fix. just upen it up and unstick it. There are more detailed instruction out there. > I'v edone it many times and forget the whole you need a clean room thing, My first > salvage is near 25years old now. I'd not want to try my luck, I'll work on that one once I've got an aquarium type glove box set up. [large drives] > You can till you have to format or defrag it. I keep a stack of sub 1gb > (from 50mb and up) SCSI drives for that reasonas well as a major > heap of MFM drives (St412s 10mb, St225s 20mb and Quantum > D540s 31mb). I just insert them and image copy to them as backup. OK, seems we mixed up logically and physically large drives here. I have about none of the first, but several of the latter category amongst those in question for the machines we're discussing here: 1(2)x RD53 5,25" MFM 1x 300MB 5,25" ESDI, 3x 5MB 14" RL01, 1x 10MB 14" RL02, (2x 80MB 14" SMD) (I just have a lead on those yet) [TK50 tape subsystem] > I meant save it for backups or other large data needs as running diags > off it will be painfully slow. If its bad save it for parts, they are scarce, > usually the controller is fine and the drive is borked. Understood. I'll find out once I have a drive and media for it. > I've also already found out that the memory board I'll be getting is 512k_Bytes_ (256kW) and does _not_ have BBU support. ?? BBU?? Unless you mean BBS7 (Io tends to use that). Battery backup. Feeding it from an alternate 5V source to keep RAM content intact when mains power is off. > One last thing... > > Heat! Qbus 11s produce a bit of that. That means fans must all work, > the location must not be dusty enough to load up the boards and local > temperature not excessively hot. > I fried a 11/23 board while working at the DEC Mill when they had an air > conditioner fail for the office area, when the room hit 96 (36c), cpu > went away, I had plenty of spares. So reliability and room temps are > coupled. Qbus 11s are fairly tolerent of conditions but any you find > are going to be old and may not like additional stress. A hard "CPU dead" damage without any warning? That's bad. Good to know anyway, makes me want to add a system monitoring function (temp and air flow) for emergency shutdown. Maybe something to design a CD slot board for after all ;), at least before I'll run the machine unattended. I also forgot something: I myself wouldn't have thought of putting a NIC (DEQNA or similar) in a pdp-11, probably just for the notion that back in those days, computers were too few and far between to come up with the concept of a Local Area Network. Obviously I was mistaken here, too. Arno From technobug at comcast.net Wed Apr 10 01:50:18 2013 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:50:18 -0700 Subject: Automated Paper Tape Punch on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was going through Southwest Liquidators back rooms and found an automated paper tape punch on a rack slated for recycling. I talked him into listing it (EPay 370793458493). The beast works. You punch in the code desired and hit perforate. The desired, lighted, programming buttons lock down (most of the bulbs are out) and release when the perforate button is hit. The power cord is new - definitely not original. The tops of the programming buttons are missing their legends? Sweet toy for anyone using paper tape. ->CRC From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Apr 10 03:06:57 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:06:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: References: <5161BBC6.3080603@pico-systems.com> <1365492039.97770.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <5164B626.1090201@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1365581217.64335.YahooMailNeo@web133101.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> ? >________________________________ > Von: Glen Slick >An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Gesendet: 3:17 Mittwoch, 10.April 2013 >Betreff: Re: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment > >On Apr 9, 2013 6:12 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >> >> All I've ever seen for the 2444 is the CE manual which, while it's pretty >good in terms to telling you where and what things are, does not include >schematics.? I suspect it's the "if X doesn't work, replace board Y'sort. >Very useful, however, in its description of the rather extensive >self-diagnostics. >> >> I do have a scanned copy of the manual--I may have gotten it from >bitsavers. > >Here: >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/B03P-5325-0100A_244X_Jun87.pdf > >That's where I got mine, too, but the schematics aren't part of it. > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Apr 10 04:15:30 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:15:30 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > Not applicaable to your problem, but somwhere I have the manual for a > Fujitsu Eagle. It contains full schematics and block diagrams of the > ASICs. I have a simialr manual for an 8" SMD drive, I think that may well > be Fujitsu too, I would have to check. Yep, the manuals are on bitsavers. Last year I had to repair a failed 8" SMD drive (M2322K), it wouldn't seek to the correct track and hence would fail spin-up diagnostics. Thanks to the very detailed schematics and functional description I was able to locate the failed component (opamp? gate? I don't know) on the r/w/servo control board. Christian From dave13 at dunfield.com Wed Apr 10 06:35:47 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 06:35:47 -0500 Subject: Grid Compass I or II CCOS ROMs? Message-ID: <51654083.21047.3EFB69@dave13.dunfield.com> >>> I know I've asked about this in the past, butI figured I'd try again: >>> Anyone have any idea where to track down ROMs for the Grid Compass I or >>> II (1101 / 1129)? I accidentally formatted my 1129's internal bubble >>> memory tonight (while intending to format an external floppy) and now of >>> course it won't boot. (Doesn't seem to want to try booting from the >>> floppy drive either, unless there's a magical keysequence...) >> According to the manual: >> >> "To load the operating system from Floppy Disk or Portable Floppy, turn >> on the computer while holding down the F (for Floppy Disk) key. >> >> If both a floppy disk and a portable floppy are attached to your computer >> and you want to start up from the portable floppy, open the door to the >> floppy disk drive before turning on the computer." >> >> You can also use 'H' to force a boot from a hard drive, otherwise it >> boots from configured primary storage which is usually Bubble. > >Excellent -- it looks like I'm up and running again. Thanks! I don't >suppose that manual you're referring to has been scanned? I have yet to >find a copy of the user's manual in any form and it'd be nice to have a >copy... Glad it worked out! Unfortunately the manual that I have is probably not what you are looking for. it is entitled "GRID Management Tools Reference" (1984) and is mainly about the GRID user software. It does have a "System Basics" section which is where I found the information about booting from floppy. This is quite a thick binder - It would take me some time to scan it, and I honestly don't see having the available time to scan all of it in the near future, however I could work away at it slowly... FYI, the sections are named: System Basics GRiDmanager Common Commands GRiDFile Database GRiDPlan Worksheets GRiDPlot Graphics GRiDWrite (Part 1) Text Editing GRiDWrite (Part 2) Text Formatting Error Messages Appendices Glossary Index GRiDVT100/GRiDReformat It also includes original GRiD disks for: GRiD-OS 3.1.0 A GRiD Management Tools 3.1.0 GRiDVT100/GRiDReformat 3.1.5 Images of these disks are already available on my site. Dave -- dave13 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield System/Firmware development services: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 10 05:46:39 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 03:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H780 power supply In-Reply-To: <304E0670-D5C1-4E35-A82E-694DB73DFB8A@gmail.com> References: <1365552270.75693.YahooMailNeo@web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <304E0670-D5C1-4E35-A82E-694DB73DFB8A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1365590799.18092.YahooMailNeo@web141406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks Dave, ?? I checked first with a load and then without. I have the main board out of it now so I was going to replace the transistors and caps. The problem is the schematics on Bitsavers is just a little blurry so I cannot make out the names and the transistors themselves(a few of them) are unreadable. Brian. ________________________________ From: David Riley To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2013 8:50 PM Subject: Re: H780 power supply On Apr 9, 2013, at 20:04, Brian Roth wrote: > Started tearing into the 11/780 and pulled the 11/03 and the RX01 out to clean and test. Looks like the PS is bad in the 11/03. It powers on and the fans run because they are AC but I am getting sometimes 4.5 volts on the 5v line and 0 volts on the 12v. I have 34 volts coming out of the diode rectifier. I suspect switching transistors. > > Anyone have experience with these? Not H780s specifically, but switching supplies in general. Are you putting any kind of load on the supply? Lots of switchers don't like running without some minimum load (I think DEC often specced the minimum load in the manual). For low voltage out of the rectifier diodes, the switching transistors aren't a bad bet. Filter caps are also a possible culprit, though they're more likely to fail open or lose capacitance. Check them with an ohmmeter anyway. - Dave From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Apr 10 05:58:19 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:58:19 +0100 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: <8FF46AE1-111A-4FC6-BAD5-7DE58CC39896@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> <8FF46AE1-111A-4FC6-BAD5-7DE58CC39896@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > > I didn't directly work with the TI-99/4 but from what I read the problem > with it was it took what was a lovely 16-bit microprocessor and embedded it > in a crippled memory/support environment. Apparently only a few hundred > words of RAM were directly on the processor bus - that mem being intended > for the workspace/registers (and presumably this actually was static ram, > not DRAM) - while the majority of RAM was accessed through a slower, > secondary, 8-bit bus. I had a 99/4 (not an A) when I was a kid, and it was best used as a doorstop. You were completely locked out of the innards of the machine, unless you wanted to spend a couple of grand on disk drives, a massive expansion box, and the assembeller. For some reason, my parents didn't want to do that -- they bought an Apple // instead. The other problem, besides it being unsuitably slow for any sort of programming, was that it would overheat after a few hours, and start generating random characters. I probably could have solved that by getting rid of the case, or cutting some more holes in it, but my parents wouldn't go for that either. Parents! Oh, wait... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Gregor Samsa awoke one morning to discover that he had been transformed into a giant cockroach." Nah, it's too good. --Max Bialystock From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 10 07:02:43 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 14:02:43 +0200 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <516554E3.2070305@xs4all.nl> On 10-apr-2013 2:27, Andrew Hoerter wrote: > It was around this time (late 90's-ish) that SGI made a devil's > bargain with Microsoft to adopt Windows NT and co-develop a new > graphics API ("Fahrenheit"), which marked the beginning of their rapid > decline into irrelevance. Oh yes, that was without much doubt the most idiotic thing SGI ever did. DEC made the same mistake(s). - MG From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 07:24:50 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:24:50 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_?= =?windows-1252?Q?ALL_TIME_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <51646E24.5030205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51655A12.30309@gmail.com> Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > I am reluctant to use the adjective sexy to describe a computer case, but > in terms of attractive looking computer cases my list would be something > like this (in no particular order): > > Apple Mac Cube > BeBox > Next Cube > Amiga 3000 Desktop > iMac G4 > TI 99/4a > Cray 2 > Twentieth Anniversary Mac > SGI Tezra > Mindset Computer M1001 No Thinking Machines CM-5? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 07:34:12 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 08:34:12 -0400 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51655C44.3060005@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- > > What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? There was that photoset containing a hairy naked man grinding against various minicomputer hardware a while back... Peace... Sridhar From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 10 09:07:36 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 10:07:36 -0400 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: References: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <51657228.8050900@sbcglobal.net> On 04/09/2013 08:05 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > >> To complement the thread "The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The >> Register", we have >> >>> >> http://www.chassis-plans.com/blog/2013/04/04/the-worst-computers-of-all-time/ >> >> Any such list is necessarily very subjective, but I can think of lots of >> machines that were worse than the ones indicated here. And not all of >> them would be consumer computers either - just because you paid a lot >> for something didn't mean it would be good. >> >> Still, I liked the presentation. >> >> -- Jecel >> > Yes, as you say these lists are pretty shallow and highly subjective. The > problem when people talk about "worst" what does that actually mean? Worst > keyboard, worst computer to repair, worst reliability, worst supported, > worst value for money...the list goes on. > > Terry (Tez) > But at least this page justifies a little why they are listed... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 10 09:13:54 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 10:13:54 -0400 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <5164D921.7000001@gmail.com> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> <5164D921.7000001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516573A2.6000506@sbcglobal.net> On 04/09/2013 11:14 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 4/9/2013 6:04 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 10 April 2013 01:33, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- >>> >>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >> Joke, N entirely SFW: >> http://www.welookdoyou.com/fufme/ >> >> Real: >> http://www.gizmag.com/lovepalz-iphone-teledildonics-app/24254/ >> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/12/sxsw_teledildonics/ >> >> >> > > There is of course always this too http://public.enemy.org/zt_pdp11.jpg Yikes! My eyes are burning! Bleeding! -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 09:48:29 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:48:29 -0500 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: <51655A12.30309@gmail.com> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <51646E24.5030205@gmail.com> <51655A12.30309@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, that's my list... I could see how the CM-5 might appeal to some, but it doesn't do it for me personally. On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 7:24 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > >> I am reluctant to use the adjective sexy to describe a computer case, but >> in terms of attractive looking computer cases my list would be something >> like this (in no particular order): >> >> Apple Mac Cube >> BeBox >> Next Cube >> Amiga 3000 Desktop >> iMac G4 >> TI 99/4a >> Cray 2 >> Twentieth Anniversary Mac >> SGI Tezra >> Mindset Computer M1001 >> > > No Thinking Machines CM-5? > > Peace... Sridhar > > From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Apr 10 09:54:42 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 15:54:42 +0100 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <516573A2.6000506@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> <5164D921.7000001@gmail.com> <516573A2.6000506@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 10 April 2013 15:13, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> There is of course always this too http://public.enemy.org/zt_pdp11.jpg > > > Yikes! My eyes are burning! Bleeding! How can I be saved if I see that? -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Gregor Samsa awoke one morning to discover that he had been transformed into a giant cockroach." Nah, it's too good. --Max Bialystock From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Apr 10 10:42:37 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:42:37 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5165886D.103@compsys.to> >Arno Kletzander wrote: >OK, seems we mixed up logically and physically large drives here. >I have about none of the first, but several of the latter category amongst those in question for the machines we're discussing here: >1(2)x RD53 5,25" MFM > > Please be aware that most (maybe now almost all) RD53 drives have failed with the head stuck problem. If you have an RD53 which can still be read, it is strongly suggested that you copy the contents to a more reliable drive. It is possible to open and remove the sticky mess without a clean room, but read the notes over the past 5 or 10 years which describe how it should be done. I would agree to use an RD53 as a scratch drive for temporary storage, but not for saving files after the drive is powered down. If anyone has any MTBF stats after the sticky mess has been removed in terms of how many hours of actually using the drive, that would be helpful. >1x 300MB 5,25" ESDI, > > I have a number of Micropolis ESDI and Hitachi ESDI drives which seem to be quite reliable. Most are the Hitachi DK-515 ESDI 5 1/4" 600 MB drives. They are used with a PDP-11/83 system with their own PC type power supply and fan since I doubt that using the internal power supply from the BA123 is helpful. Those Hitachi drives arrived 4 in a box with that PC type power supply in the first place which emulated one of the VAX type of drives which DEC supported. Since the ESDI drives were exactly what I wanted for the PDP-11/83 and the DEC reseller had no demand for these drives from VAX users, the price and usage was perfect for the PDP-11/83 with an MSCP EDSI controller. Normally, I used 3 * 600 MB drives which were usually all identical with drive 0 being the production drive and drives 1 and 2 being backups. >3x 5MB 14" RL01, >1x 10MB 14" RL02, > > VERY reasonable for a small RT-11 system, but prone to hardware problems (especially filters) in the long run. >(2x 80MB 14" SMD) (I just have a lead on those yet) > > The ESDI drives are more reliable and faster. ESDI controllers were also less expensive and more available. >[TK50 tape subsystem] > From my point of view, one of the worst backups that DEC ever produced. While making a simple copy of a large file is reasonable, the lack of a reasonable streaming capability makes use of small files or a verify of a large file extremely difficult. On the other hand, the TK70 is a good, fast, reliable drive which I used for many years as my primary backup until I found some Sony SMO S-501 magneto optical drives. Jerome Fine From earl at baugh.org Wed Apr 10 11:12:49 2013 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:12:49 -0400 Subject: What is the correct material to use.. Message-ID: I'm in the process of restoring some original Macs (a 128 and 512) with a friend and we have come across an issue with a floppy drive that is strictly mechanical, and am wondering what others have done. On the original 400K floppies there is a pin on the side that moves up and down as the floppy goes in, and is ejected which in some sense locks the floppy in either position. On one of these drives, the pivot point where this pin connects to the rest of the mechanism isn't as "free" as it should be, and initially caused the drive to be either stuck in the open or closed position. We've cleaned around the pin (Q-tips and isopropyl alcohol) and then lubricated it with some WD-40 (using Q-tip as well) as a start. This approach did free it up enough that it moves from "open" without the floppy, but when the motor goes to eject it, the mechanism is still a bit slow to move (which prevents the disk from ejecting by motor alone). Using the good ol' paper-clip shows that that mechanism works fine, though is just a little slow... which tells us that it's still not as free as it should be. We're trying to figure what type of lubricant would have been on this before (or what would be the proper modern replacement) Any thoughts? Thanks. Earl From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 10 11:13:36 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:13:36 -0000 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_?= =?windows-1252?Q?ALL_TIME_=95_The_Register?= References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <51646E24.5030205@gmail.com> <51655A12.30309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51658FB0.50200@gewt.net> On 04/10/2013 08:24 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: >> I am reluctant to use the adjective sexy to describe a computer case, but >> in terms of attractive looking computer cases my list would be something >> like this (in no particular order): >> >> Apple Mac Cube >> BeBox >> Next Cube >> Amiga 3000 Desktop >> iMac G4 >> TI 99/4a >> Cray 2 >> Twentieth Anniversary Mac >> SGI Tezra >> Mindset Computer M1001 > > No Thinking Machines CM-5? Also, no original ZX Spectrum? > > Peace... Sridhar > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 10 11:48:37 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:48:37 -0500 Subject: H780 power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516597E5.7010304@pico-systems.com> > Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 17:04:30 -0700 (PDT) > From: Brian Roth > To: ClassicCmp > Subject: H780 power supply > Message-ID: > <1365552270.75693.YahooMailNeo at web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Started tearing into the 11/780 and pulled the 11/03 and the RX01 out to clean and test. Looks like the PS is bad in the 11/03. It powers on and the fans run because they are AC but I am getting sometimes 4.5 volts on the 5v line and 0 volts on the 12v. I have 34 volts coming out of the diode rectifier. I suspect switching transistors. > First, if it has Molex/AMP Mate-n-Lock connectors, check them for bad contact. DEC loved these during the PDP-11 era, and I had a constant battle with our used 11/44 to keep it running. The contacts would develop an oxide film, run hot and eventually burn up the contacts, connectors, wire, etc. Especially with fluctuating output, that soulds very much like poor contacts. I never tore the LSI-11 apart on a 780, so I don't know what the PS looked like, but I would bet there are some of those AMP connectors in it with the crummy tin plating. Jon From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 12:01:32 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:01:32 -0500 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <5164F634.30007@gmail.com> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> <5164D921.7000001@gmail.com> <5164F634.30007@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 12:18 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 4/9/2013 9:53 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > >> But we all know since the dawn of personal computing it's been plagued by >> sex and our dashing good looks http://mentalfloss.com/sites/** >> default/files/styles/article_**640x430/public/bill-gates-**1983_6.jpgIt practically screams (with a bit of cracking in the voice) "You're >> welcome ladies!.." >> > > Has that picture ever been explained ? I know Gate's like to joke about it > now but, what is the story behind it ? Were they just messing around > between more serious typical corporate shots ? > > I don't really know either. Some quick googling indicates they were perhaps just publicity shots for the release of Windows 1 http://www.snopes.com/photos/people/gates.asp From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 10 12:16:46 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:16:46 -0400 Subject: Automated Paper Tape Punch on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51659E7E.60006@neurotica.com> On 04/10/2013 02:50 AM, CRC wrote: > > > I was going through Southwest Liquidators back rooms and found an automated paper tape punch on a rack slated for recycling. I talked him into listing it (EPay 370793458493). > > The beast works. You punch in the code desired and hit perforate. The desired, lighted, programming buttons lock down (most of the bulbs are out) and release when the perforate button is hit. The power cord is new - definitely not original. The tops of the programming buttons are missing their legends? Sweet toy for anyone using paper tape. Ok, that is very cool indeed. Sadly my disposable income is gone for the month, otherwise I'd jump on that! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 10 12:44:04 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 10:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H780 power supply In-Reply-To: <516597E5.7010304@pico-systems.com> References: <516597E5.7010304@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1365615844.84578.YahooMailNeo@web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >From: Jon Elson >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 12:48 PM >Subject: H780 power supply > >Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 17:04:30 -0700 (PDT) > >From: Brian Roth > >To: ClassicCmp > >Subject: H780 power supply > >Message-ID: >? > ? <1365552270.75693.YahooMailNeo at web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > >Started tearing into the 11/780 and pulled the 11/03 and the RX01 out to clean and test. Looks like the PS is bad in the 11/03. It powers on and the fans run because they are AC but I am getting sometimes 4.5 volts on the 5v line and 0 volts on the 12v. I have 34 volts coming out of the diode rectifier. I suspect switching transistors. >? > >First, if it has Molex/AMP Mate-n-Lock connectors, check them for bad contact. >DEC loved these during the PDP-11 era, and I had a constant battle with our >used 11/44 to keep it running.? The contacts would develop an oxide film, run >hot and eventually burn up the contacts, connectors, wire, etc.? Especially >with fluctuating output, that soulds very much like poor contacts. >I never tore the LSI-11 apart on a 780, so I don't know what the PS >looked like, but I would bet there are some of those AMP connectors in >it with the crummy tin plating. >Jon Yes, I'm familiar with those. That's the first thing I suspected and took them all apart and cleaned them. I took my voltage readings straight from the board traces so they did not even come into play. BTW, I had the same problem with my /44 and I still have the scars on my knuckles to prove it. Brian. From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 13:58:48 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:58:48 -0500 Subject: What is the correct material to use.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have used a couple of things when fixing stuck floppy mechanisms with good success. First it's best to thoroughly clean the mechanism of all the caked/dried oil/grease. You can do this with some WD-40 or some other penetrating oil like PB blaster if it's really caked on, and sometimes just diluting it with the replacement oil is enough to loosen it up and wipe it away. I then either replace with white lithium bearing grease (such as you get from the auto parts store), or a lightweight oil like 3-in-1. Just enough to lubricate the areas where there are rollers or metal guides touching metal, and wipe off the excess. On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Earl Baugh wrote: > I'm in the process of restoring some original Macs (a 128 and 512) with a > friend and we have come across an issue with a floppy drive that is > strictly mechanical, and am wondering what others have done. > > On the original 400K floppies there is a pin on the side that moves up and > down as the floppy goes in, and is ejected which in some sense locks the > floppy in either position. On one of these drives, the pivot point where > this pin connects to the rest of the mechanism isn't as "free" as it should > be, and initially caused the drive to be either stuck in the open or closed > position. We've cleaned around the pin (Q-tips and isopropyl alcohol) and > then lubricated it with some WD-40 (using Q-tip as well) as a start. This > approach did free it up enough that it moves from "open" without the > floppy, but when the motor goes to eject it, the mechanism is still a bit > slow to move (which prevents the disk from ejecting by motor alone). Using > the good ol' paper-clip shows that that mechanism works fine, though is > just a little slow... which tells us that it's still not as free as it > should be. > > We're trying to figure what type of lubricant would have been on this > before (or what would be the proper modern replacement) > > Any thoughts? > > Thanks. > > Earl > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 10 14:50:18 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:50:18 -0700 Subject: What is the correct material to use.. In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: WD-40 is not a lubricant. It is a water dispersant. Hence the name WD. It will dry in a short amount of time and leave it gummed up again. It also does one other thing, as it looses it solvents, it leave water as the last part to evaporate. This tends to cause corrosion. After using it, wipe it off and use a proper lubricant. Also make sure that the spray does not get on the heads as it will cause damage to the floppy you put in. It must be completely cleaned from the surface of the head if sprayed anywhere near the heads. Dwight > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:58:48 -0500 > Subject: Re: What is the correct material to use.. > From: oltmansg at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I have used a couple of things when fixing stuck floppy mechanisms with > good success. First it's best to thoroughly clean the mechanism of all the > caked/dried oil/grease. You can do this with some WD-40 or some other > penetrating oil like PB blaster if it's really caked on, and sometimes just > diluting it with the replacement oil is enough to loosen it up and wipe it > away. I then either replace with white lithium bearing grease (such as you > get from the auto parts store), or a lightweight oil like 3-in-1. Just > enough to lubricate the areas where there are rollers or metal guides > touching metal, and wipe off the excess. > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Earl Baugh wrote: > > > I'm in the process of restoring some original Macs (a 128 and 512) with a > > friend and we have come across an issue with a floppy drive that is > > strictly mechanical, and am wondering what others have done. > > > > On the original 400K floppies there is a pin on the side that moves up and > > down as the floppy goes in, and is ejected which in some sense locks the > > floppy in either position. On one of these drives, the pivot point where > > this pin connects to the rest of the mechanism isn't as "free" as it should > > be, and initially caused the drive to be either stuck in the open or closed > > position. We've cleaned around the pin (Q-tips and isopropyl alcohol) and > > then lubricated it with some WD-40 (using Q-tip as well) as a start. This > > approach did free it up enough that it moves from "open" without the > > floppy, but when the motor goes to eject it, the mechanism is still a bit > > slow to move (which prevents the disk from ejecting by motor alone). Using > > the good ol' paper-clip shows that that mechanism works fine, though is > > just a little slow... which tells us that it's still not as free as it > > should be. > > > > We're trying to figure what type of lubricant would have been on this > > before (or what would be the proper modern replacement) > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Earl > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 15:10:18 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 20:10:18 +0000 Subject: Automated Paper Tape Punch on Ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Looks nice. Sadly shipping to the UK is around $500 ..... Dave G4UGM ------ Original Message ------ From: "CRC" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 10/04/2013 07:50:18 Subject: Automated Paper Tape Punch on Ebay > > >I was going through Southwest Liquidators back rooms and found an >automated paper tape punch on a rack slated for recycling. I talked him >into listing it (EPay 370793458493). > >The beast works. You punch in the code desired and hit perforate. The >desired, lighted, programming buttons lock down (most of the bulbs are >out) and release when the perforate button is hit. The power cord is >new - definitely not original. The tops of the programming buttons are >missing their legends? Sweet toy for anyone using paper tape. > > ->CRC From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 10 15:41:05 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 15:41:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: What is the correct material to use.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2013, Earl Baugh wrote: > I'm in the process of restoring some original Macs (a 128 and 512) with > a friend and we have come across an issue with a floppy drive that is > strictly mechanical, and am wondering what others have done. > > On the original 400K floppies there is a pin on the side that moves up > and down as the floppy goes in, and is ejected which in some sense locks > the floppy in either position. On one of these drives, the pivot point > where this pin connects to the rest of the mechanism isn't as "free" as > it should be, and initially caused the drive to be either stuck in the > open or closed position. We've cleaned around the pin (Q-tips and > isopropyl alcohol) and then lubricated it with some WD-40 (using Q-tip > as well) as a start. This approach did free it up enough that it moves > from "open" without the floppy, but when the motor goes to eject it, the > mechanism is still a bit slow to move (which prevents the disk from > ejecting by motor alone). Using the good ol' paper-clip shows that that > mechanism works fine, though is just a little slow... which tells us > that it's still not as free as it should be. > > We're trying to figure what type of lubricant would have been on this > before (or what would be the proper modern replacement) > > Any thoughts? When I run into this with floppy drive and other mechanical stuff, I disassemble the mechanical parts, remove any old grease with mineral spirits (aka paint thinner)* and a toothbrush, and then replace the grease with something equivalent or better. Depending on the application, I might use a brown or white lithium based grease, a polyurea grease, or a synthetic grease containing either silicone or teflon (or some blend of the two). With metal to metal contact points such as what you find in these drives, I usually just use a lithium based grease. It is important to first clean and remove any old grease completely though, because some types of greases are incompatible, and you generally can't identify if a grease is lithium or polyurea based just by its color. As others have pointed out, WD40 isn't a replacement for grease or oil. It works great as a water displacement, such as for driving the water out of parts that have been rinsed in water after cleaning with a detergent based degreaser. A large percentage of WD40's ingredients is a light solvent, and the small amount of oil it contains tend to gum up later if not removed/supplemented by a better oil. OTOH, I do not recommend the use of "3-in-1" oil for anything other than possibly a door hinge. Because it is vegetable based and not petroleum based, it too will gum up later. *The "used" mineral spirits can be reused if you pour it off into an airtight jar and allow the grease and other solids to settle to the bottom. Because I frequently clean a lot of mechanical stuff in solvents, I keep a number of glass quart and gallon size jars on hand for just this purpose. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 10 15:44:03 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:44:03 -0700 Subject: What is the correct material to use.. In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <5165CF13.7020102@bitsavers.org> On 4/10/13 12:50 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > WD-40 is not a lubricant. It is a water dispersant. correct. read what he wrote. >> I have used a couple of things when fixing stuck floppy mechanisms with >> good success. First it's best to thoroughly clean the mechanism of all the >> caked/dried oil/grease. You can do this with some WD-40 or some other >> penetrating oil like PB blaster if it's really caked on Stoddard solvent works just fine for this application. He then lubes it with lithium grease, which is also the right thing to do. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 10 16:03:21 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 14:03:21 -0700 Subject: What is the correct material to use.. In-Reply-To: <5165CF13.7020102@bitsavers.org> References: , , , , <5165CF13.7020102@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:44:03 -0700 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: What is the correct material to use.. > > On 4/10/13 12:50 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > WD-40 is not a lubricant. It is a water dispersant. > correct. > read what he wrote. > > >> I have used a couple of things when fixing stuck floppy mechanisms with > >> good success. First it's best to thoroughly clean the mechanism of all the > >> caked/dried oil/grease. You can do this with some WD-40 or some other > >> penetrating oil like PB blaster if it's really caked on > > Stoddard solvent works just fine for this application. > > He then lubes it with lithium grease, which is also the right thing to do. > > > I don't see anywhere he says he removed the WD-40 and replaced it with lithium grease. I see where another suggested lithium grease but not that he did. Maybe I'm getting old. Dwight From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Apr 10 16:04:12 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:04:12 +0200 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME ? The Register In-Reply-To: <20130409200550.GA21900@mail.loomcom.com> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <20130409200550.GA21900@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <5165D3CC.5050604@update.uu.se> On 04/09/2013 10:05 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > * SGI Indigo R4K Elan Oh YES! I love my Indigos. It's hands down the nicest workstation ever made. So easy to dismantle and put back together again. Very sleek looking. And it's the machine that got me collecting classic computers in the first place: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/indigo.shtml > * DEC PDP-8 (The original "Straight 8") I love it, but I think the Linc-8 is slightly sexier. No smoked plexi, but what a console. > * DEC PDP-10 (in general, but specifically the console of the KI10) Definitely the sexiest mainframe! Though I prefer the KA-10 console. Hmm perhaps the PDP-6 should win though, at least with the big round display: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dec_pdp-6.lg.jpg Cheers, Pontus. From bobvines00 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 16:08:19 2013 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 17:08:19 -0400 Subject: H780 power supply Message-ID: > Message: 9 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 03:46:39 -0700 (PDT) > From: Brian Roth > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: H780 power supply > Message-ID: > <1365590799.18092.YahooMailNeo at web141406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Thanks Dave, > > ?? I checked first with a load and then without. I have the main board out of it now so I was going to replace the transistors and caps. The problem is the schematics on Bitsavers is just a little blurry so I cannot make out the names and the transistors themselves(a few of them) are unreadable. > > Brian. Brian, I have a 174-page ~15.8MB PDF entitled ""1103_Schematics.pdf" that appears to be clear enough to read the H780 power supply pages (parts of the pages are blurry, but most areas seem to be readable). The PS schematics are drawing number D-CS-5411776-0-1, Rev. M, dated 7-22-77, and are three pages. I'll go ahead and send them to you (~154KB). Or I could email the whole 174-page file. Bob From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 16:17:40 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:17:40 -0500 Subject: What is the correct material to use.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > As others have pointed out, WD40 isn't a replacement for grease or oil. It > works great as a water displacement, such as for driving the water out of > parts that have been rinsed in water after cleaning with a detergent based > degreaser. A large percentage of WD40's ingredients is a light solvent, and > the small amount of oil it contains tend to gum up later if not > removed/supplemented by a better oil. OTOH, I do not recommend the use of > "3-in-1" oil for anything other than possibly a door hinge. Because it is > vegetable based and not petroleum based, it too will gum up later. > Ah, good to know on the 3-in-1 stuff. Like I said before, I tend to use that or the lithium grease depending on which is more readily available at the moment. From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 10 16:19:45 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 21:19:45 -0000 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME ? The Register References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <20130409200550.GA21900@mail.loomcom.com> <5165D3CC.5050604@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2013, Pontus wrote: > > On 04/09/2013 10:05 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >> * SGI Indigo R4K Elan > > Oh YES! I love my Indigos. It's hands down the nicest workstation ever > made. So easy to dismantle and put back together again. Very sleek > looking. And it's the machine that got me collecting classic computers > in the first place: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/indigo.shtml > >> * DEC PDP-8 (The original "Straight 8") > > I love it, but I think the Linc-8 is slightly sexier. No smoked plexi, > but what a console. Was the "Straight 8" designed as a computer, or an art piece? ;) > >> * DEC PDP-10 (in general, but specifically the console of the KI10) > > Definitely the sexiest mainframe! Though I prefer the KA-10 console. Hmm > perhaps the PDP-6 should win though, at least with the big round display: > > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dec_pdp-6.lg.jpg > > Cheers, > Pontus. > -- -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 16:22:31 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:22:31 -0500 Subject: What is the correct material to use.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wait... I take that back... according to the MSDS, 3-in-1 is petroleum based. http://www.lakeland.edu/AboutUs/MSDS/PDFs/445/3-in-1%20Oil%20%28Doyle%20Midway-WD-40%29.pdf On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> As others have pointed out, WD40 isn't a replacement for grease or oil. >> It works great as a water displacement, such as for driving the water out >> of parts that have been rinsed in water after cleaning with a detergent >> based degreaser. A large percentage of WD40's ingredients is a light >> solvent, and the small amount of oil it contains tend to gum up later if >> not removed/supplemented by a better oil. OTOH, I do not recommend the use >> of "3-in-1" oil for anything other than possibly a door hinge. Because it >> is vegetable based and not petroleum based, it too will gum up later. >> > > Ah, good to know on the 3-in-1 stuff. Like I said before, I tend to use > that or the lithium grease depending on which is more readily available at > the moment. > From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Apr 10 16:34:37 2013 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (stefan skoglund(agj)) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:34:37 +0200 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1365629677.24940.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tis 2013-04-09 klockan 17:33 -0700 skrev Chuck Guzis: > Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- > > What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? > > --Chuck > A female student who participates in a under-grad cultural achievement film (one of SAIL's tape drives was the other player.) Funny what usage that robotic hand could have too... From slandon110 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 16:38:54 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 17:38:54 -0400 Subject: FS: Huge Lot of Vintage Computers- Local Pick up preferred in Flushing Michigan Message-ID: <5165DBEE.1050404@gmail.com> Due an unexpected loss of my vehicle and to help with moving expenses I must sell off a good chunk of my collection. I cannot accept PayPal, my account was hacked and overdrafted and PayPal refuses to help. Postal Money Order is acceptable, But if you can come out and get machines that would make life quite easy for me. Best reasonable offers accepted The more you buy the cheaper it gets Complete Systems Apple IIGS ROM 01 with Monitor, Keyboard, Mouse, 3.5 Drive, 5.25 Drive, 1MB RAM Expansion, 80MB HDD and SCSI Card $200 IBM PC 5150 256K RAM, 40MB Hardcard, Ethernet Card, Sysdyne RGB Monitor, Keyboard and All original boxes $200 Atari ST520FM, Rough Shape but working Comes with TOS 2.0 ROMs not installed 52MB HDD and Mouse included. The 52MB HDD has an ACSI TO SCSI Adapter in it, so you can use SCSI Devices with the Atari $100 Apple II Plus System Monitor /// with matching monitor stand Dual Disk II Drives Saturn 128k RAM Upgrade Card Super Serial Card Microsoft Softcard Z80 Card ThunderClock Plus Clock Card $250 Apple //e system Apple Color Monitor //e Super Serial Card 64k 80 Col Card Apple 5.25 drive $75 Apple //e System Unidisk 3.5 Drive w/ Apple Liron Card DuoDisk 5.25 Drive Apple RGB Card with Color Monitor 100 Apple //e Workstation Card Apple Super Serial Card Microsoft Softcard Z-80 Card CFFA 3000 Card $300 dollars Apple //c machine ROM 0 Machine with Unidisk 3.5 Support Matching Monitor //c UniDisk 3.5 Drive $100 Bell & Howell Apple II Plus Matching 5.25 drive RCA 9inch B&W Monitor Hayes Smartmodem II 300 Baud Super Serial Card Microsoft Softcard Z80 Card $300 dollars All these machines are tested and working and are from my personal collection. Cheap accessories DaynaPort E/Z Serial To Ethernet Adapter for Mac- Puts your Serial based macs online $30 dollars MicroPrint 2, LocalTalk to Ethernet Bridge- Bridges your localtalk based macs to ethernet 50 pin SCSI Hard Drives, Sizes from 40MB to 500MB $10 dollars each, got hundreds of them These are 20 dollar an item machines. 10 Apple Monitor // 4 Apple Monitor /// 32 Cosmetically damaged IIGS Monitors 10 Nice GS Monitors 8 Mac IIcx 2 Mac IIci 3 Mac IIsi 5 Imagewriter I 3 Beige G3 Minitowers 2 G3 Desktops 5 PowerMac 6100s 1 Centris 610 1 Quadra 610 1 PowerMac 7300/180 1 PowerMac 7500/100 2 PowerMac 7100/66 1 Performa 600 1 Macintosh IIVX 4 Original LCs 3 LC 575s 1 SE FDHD 2 SE 800k 5 Mac Pluses 1 Molar Mac From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 10 17:16:04 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:16:04 -0000 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> <1365629677.24940.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <5165E4A4.7070608@gewt.net> On 04/10/2013 05:34 PM, stefan skoglund(agj) wrote: > > tis 2013-04-09 klockan 17:33 -0700 skrev Chuck Guzis: >> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- >> >> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >> >> --Chuck >> > > A female student who participates in a under-grad cultural achievement > film (one of SAIL's tape drives was the other player.) It's mentioned in its autobiography! > > Funny what usage that robotic hand could have too... > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From stock at csgeeks.org Wed Apr 10 17:18:50 2013 From: stock at csgeeks.org (Matthew D Stock) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:18:50 -0400 Subject: FS: Huge Lot of Vintage Computers- Local Pick up preferred in Flushing Michigan In-Reply-To: <5165DBEE.1050404@gmail.com> References: <5165DBEE.1050404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5165E54A.70803@csgeeks.org> Folks, Beware of this guy - he scammed me out of some money recently when I offered to buy some stuff from him and he didn't ship. His ex-girlfriend (it's her paypal account, it wasn't hacked) ended up refunding me the money out of her pocket. But don't believe me, just do a web search and you'll see has has quite a history on the Apple mailing lists going back years. If you still choose to buy from him, do it in person and know what you're buying. -Matt On 4/10/2013 5:38 PM, Steven Landon wrote: > Due an unexpected loss of my vehicle and to help with moving expenses > I must sell off a good chunk of my collection. I cannot accept > PayPal, my account was hacked and overdrafted and PayPal refuses to > help. Postal Money Order is acceptable, But if you can come out and > get machines that would make life quite easy for me. Best reasonable > offers accepted > The more you buy the cheaper it gets From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Apr 10 17:20:23 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:20:23 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5165E5A7.3020806@verizon.net> On 04/10/2013 02:25 AM, Arno Kletzander wrote: >>>> If anything the floppy is always a must on my systems as all my diags and >>>> base RT11 systems are on that media (RX01, RX02, RX50, RX33, RX23). >>> Are they also available in TU58 (file) format? >> Generally yes. TU58 file format is variable in that the device appears to the system as >> a blocked volume like disk (though slower). The transfer between the TU58 and >> its host is serial data and the host request block(s) N and not that >> much different than IDE or other intelligent disk system that uses a logial block numbering >> system. The tu58 does not know nor care what is in the 512 byte block. I've run CP/M from TU58. > ok, then TU58 emulation is, as I had hoped, going to float the boat for me, at least until either more machines or media to be read crop up here. The novelty weill wear off fast as a drive is only 256K, and its serial line speed and hence sloowwwwwwww... >>>> A viable uVAX is more than 150mb, (more like 300-500 for V7), >>>> a loaded PDP11 is 30MB. Just difference is OS utilization. >>> So I guess it all boils down on what one wants to run on it. >>> I've got one functional RD53 in it right now, and a second one I hope to revive at some point in the future. >> Thats plenty of space for PDP-11 OSs. > Unfortunately I have no sound way to (mechanically) _mount_ and power those tiny little 5,25" disks in the '11 rack, that's why they're staying in the BA123. > I forgot the 300MB ESDI disk I got from a listmember together with a Webster Qbus controller, I'll use that one if I ever want to run a large OS on the VSII. I got a rack shelf and gutted a few PCs for the disk cage. >> Likely the bad one has the stuck head problem >> easy to fix. just upen it up and unstick it. There are more detailed instruction out there. >> I'v edone it many times and forget the whole you need a clean room thing, My first >> salvage is near 25years old now. > I'd not want to try my luck, I'll work on that one once I've got an aquarium type glove box set up. Suit yourself. I've done them on the kitchen table. I must ahve done at least 8 of them. The only failures were not media related (controller dies on write and blows the track servo). Keep in mind they have a filter and the spin-up is to clear the platters and the dust that lands into the filter. [large drives] >> You can till you have to format or defrag it. I keep a stack of sub 1gb >> (from 50mb and up) SCSI drives for that reasonas well as a major >> heap of MFM drives (St412s 10mb, St225s 20mb and Quantum >> D540s 31mb). I just insert them and image copy to them as backup. > OK, seems we mixed up logically and physically large drives here. > I have about none of the first, but several of the latter category amongst those in question for the machines we're discussing here: > 1(2)x RD53 5,25" MFM > 1x 300MB 5,25" ESDI, > 3x 5MB 14" RL01, > 1x 10MB 14" RL02, > (2x 80MB 14" SMD) (I just have a lead on those yet) Physical large drive: any that want a lift or two people to install in the rack. Anything I can lift with one hand is small. Media capacity is a whole different matter. > [TK50 tape subsystem] >> I meant save it for backups or other large data needs as running diags >> off it will be painfully slow. If its bad save it for parts, they are scarce, >> usually the controller is fine and the drive is borked. > Understood. I'll find out once I have a drive and media for it. > >> I've also already found out that the memory board I'll be getting is 512k_Bytes_ (256kW) and does _not_ have BBU support. > ?? BBU?? Unless you mean BBS7 (Io tends to use that). > Battery backup. Feeding it from an alternate 5V source to keep RAM content intact when mains power is off. > Oh, It's been a while, I never use it. No need. If I need the data preserved I have it on disk and the system on UPS. >> One last thing... >> >> Heat! Qbus 11s produce a bit of that. That means fans must all work, >> the location must not be dusty enough to load up the boards and local >> temperature not excessively hot. >> I fried a 11/23 board while working at the DEC Mill when they had an air >> conditioner fail for the office area, when the room hit 96 (36c), cpu >> went away, I had plenty of spares. So reliability and room temps are >> coupled. Qbus 11s are fairly tolerent of conditions but any you find >> are going to be old and may not like additional stress. > A hard "CPU dead" damage without any warning? Yep, however in the Mill on weekends the AC was running lower and who know how many thermal cycles that machine had seen even before I got it. > That's bad. > Good to know anyway, makes me want to add a system monitoring function > (temp and air flow) for emergency shutdown. Maybe something to design > a CD slot board for after all ;), at least before I'll run the machine > unattended. Mine ran usually for months at a time, if the building AC hadn't failed the cpu baord would still be in there (it is actually and repaired returned to my spares box). > I also forgot something: I myself wouldn't have thought of putting a NIC > (DEQNA or similar) in a pdp-11, probably just for the notion that back > in those days, computers were too few and far between to come up with the > concept of a Local Area Network. Obviously I was mistaken here, too. > PDP-11s were networked before NICs using DDCMP and sync lines. After NICS Ether pipe. RT11 does little with it and its mostly useless for that RSTS and RSX in the later versions were full fledged nodes (DECnet Phase III). Of course Unix had UUCP via serial lines and modems. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 10 17:26:42 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 15:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <1365629677.24940.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> <1365629677.24940.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <20130410151518.Y25071@shell.lmi.net> > What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? Raj Koothrappali and Siri? Julie Christie in Demonseed? Philip j Fry and LucyLuBot? Barbarella and the Excessive machine? Woody Allen and the Orgasmatron?, and orgasmic orb The entire field of TeleDildonics? ("If you build it, they will come") From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 17:32:11 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 17:32:11 -0500 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME =?UTF-8?B?4oCiIFRoZSBS?= =?UTF-8?B?ZWdpc3Rlcg==?= In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5165E86B.2000205@gmail.com> On 04/09/2013 01:10 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? Hmm, a lot of the good answers have already been taken, and I can think of various things that probably just appeal to me personally for one reason or another - but how about the humble Vectrex? Cheap and cheerful, and the construction and styling certainly wouldn't win any prizes - but there's something darn cool about seeing a vector display on a 'home' system. (I'd say that maybe it shouldn't be admissible because it's not a general-purpose platform, but it's no worse than the PS3, and the Cray was of course highly specialized) cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 10 16:30:23 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:30:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer In-Reply-To: <1365560450.26305.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Apr 9, 13 07:20:50 pm Message-ID: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> I am looking for a daisy wheel printer to buy > > > > An odd thing to desire.... > not really, Wel, OK, I regater old computer periphearls as being interesting, but far too many people think that the CPU is the only bit worth colelcting. > I already have two pen plotters (Desktop and cutter) > I've ordered a dot-matrix printer s an aside, I regard injet and laser printers as being dot-matrix... There are some weird printer designs around. Some things you might try t ofind if you don't already have them : One of those 4-colour pritner/ploters using the Alps mechanism. Everybody and his dog sold them at some poitn -- Tandy CGP115, Commodore 1520, there was an Atari oen, a Sharp one, theOric printer, etc. Sticking with 'small', Epson made a little impact dot matrix mechansim that had a carriage that shuttled back and forth with IIRC 4 solenoids/pins on it. It printed a lien of dots (fire the solenoids apporpirately as the carriace shuttles), then moved the paper up one dot line and did the next line, et.c. It's the mechanism in the HX20 internal printer, but Iv'e see nit elsewere too Then you should try to find one of those pritners that took metalised paper and burnt away the coating with a spark electrode. The Sinclair ZX printer is progbably the easiest to find, but there wwere many, maany, others Of course you should have a thermal printer. HP made many of them. Some had full-width fixed printheads (the HP9866 is a favorite of mine, mainly becuase of the machine it normally goes with), If you cna fidn one , the HP7245 is a strange beast. Not just a 12 element thermal printer (with the eelments in a diagonal line across the head, so it prints jsut as well verticlally ans horizontally), but also a thermal plotter using s 13th element and moving the paper and carriage around like a pen plotter. The downside is that it needs unobtainmable sporoketed thermal paper, but.... Versatec (and others?) made a line of electrostatic printers. They build up a charge inamge on coated paper and then pass liquid toner over it. Getting on to impact-and-ribbon type thigns, there are hte almost fully mechanicla teleprinters. The mechanisms in those are fascinating to me. Then there are printers hwich, by design, take sevearl pases to printer a line. Sanders Associates made a range tht could sensibly do 8 pases and put the dots i nthe right places. THese moved the paper up fracitonally after each line. The DEC LA100 did 2 pases buyt kept the paper fixed nad roicked the printhead. Fro mthe sublime to the ridiculous, there's the Olivetti JP101. This odd thing uses a rod of toner 9rpesumably carbon-based and geneartes a partk form the end fo that to a fixed electrode. This blasts some of the toner onto the paper. It's not very legible, it smudges easily, but it's so odd that IMHO it's worth colelcting. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 10 16:09:17 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:09:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: H780 power supply In-Reply-To: <1365552270.75693.YahooMailNeo@web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Brian Roth" at Apr 9, 13 05:04:30 pm Message-ID: > > Started tearing into the 11/780 and pulled the 11/03 and the RX01 out > to clean and test. Looks like the PS is bad in the 11/03. It powers on > and the fans run because they are AC but I am getting sometimes 4.5 > volts on the 5v line and 0 volts on the 12v. I have 34 volts coming out > of the diode rectifier. I suspect switching transistors. > > Anyone have experience with these? > Probably not that particualr PSU, but I know that some of the smaller DEC pSUs used on Qbus systems do not work correctly unloaded. But the normal behaviour then is for the 5V rail to come up but the +/-12V rails to be very low -- they 'tag along' with the 5V rail so if the latter is not loarded the PSU is running at very low power, the choppers are on for very little time so the 12V liens don't come up. I would try loading the 5V line (a 6V 12W bulb should do it) and see what happens. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 10 16:15:05 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:15:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Apr 10, 13 01:41:20 am Message-ID: > > TI 99/4a. Cliff Click gave up in disgust trying to program this > > thing. nuf said. > > You do have a point. Interesting architecture & so on, but... > registers in external DRAM? Really? IIRC, the worst feature wa that (in the base configuration) there was almsot no RAM (if any at all) on the processor bus. Yor BASIC program ws stored in spare locations of the video RAM. This meant that (a) readign the BASIC program to execute it was ridiculously slow and (b) you couldn't program it in machine code (since the RAM was not on the processor bus). ARGH! I think I Would put the VAX 11/730 on the list of 'daftest hardware designs'. even though I like the machine overall. The processor microcode is stored in DRAM. No I am not joking. This means that the procesosr has to be haled every few ms while the control store RAM is refreshed. Every other machine I've see with a writeable control store (that is, the microcode is in RAM not ROM) has ued static RAM for this, for obvious reasons. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 10 17:04:47 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:04:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is the correct material to use.. In-Reply-To: from "Earl Baugh" at Apr 10, 13 12:12:49 pm Message-ID: > > I'm in the process of restoring some original Macs (a 128 and 512) with a > friend and we have come across an issue with a floppy drive that is > strictly mechanical, and am wondering what others have done. > > On the original 400K floppies there is a pin on the side that moves up and > down as the floppy goes in, and is ejected which in some sense locks the > floppy in either position. On one of these drives, the pivot point where > this pin connects to the rest of the mechanism isn't as "free" as it should > be, and initially caused the drive to be either stuck in the open or closed > position. We've cleaned around the pin (Q-tips and isopropyl alcohol) and > then lubricated it with some WD-40 (using Q-tip as well) as a start. This N omatter waht is says o nthe can, Wanton Destruciton 40 is nto a usitable lubricant for small mechanisms. In fact this might be what is gummign things up On similar SOny drive,s I take them apart as far as possible and creally clean the parts with propan-2-ol. Keep on workign them back and forth to get the gunged-up grease out. Normally they will work properly with no lubricant at all. And wear on osemthing like an eject mechansim should be minimal. -tony From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Apr 10 17:42:40 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:42:40 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5165886D.103@compsys.to> References: <5165886D.103@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5165EAE0.4000005@verizon.net> On 04/10/2013 11:42 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Arno Kletzander wrote: > >> OK, seems we mixed up logically and physically large drives here. >> I have about none of the first, but several of the latter category >> amongst those in question for the machines we're discussing here: >> 1(2)x RD53 5,25" MFM >> >> > Please be aware that most (maybe now almost all) RD53 > drives have failed with the head stuck problem. If you have > an RD53 which can still be read, it is strongly suggested that > you copy the contents to a more reliable drive. It is possible > to open and remove the sticky mess without a clean room, > but read the notes over the past 5 or 10 years which describe > how it should be done. I would agree to use an RD53 as a > scratch drive for temporary storage, but not for saving files > after the drive is powered down. If anyone has any MTBF > stats after the sticky mess has been removed in terms of > how many hours of actually using the drive, that would be > helpful. > I have one I did that on back in the late 80s and it still runs. I's gotten at least three years solid power on time in a PC and after retirement there Its in a current PDP11 and still runs at least 30 hours a year. I have a bunch I've done that to. A few have failed due to controller board issues (saved as media spares) and one the media is physically good but the controller borked and wrote all over the servo tracks. No reformat possible for the servo information. It was a very good drive save for the gummy rubber bumper in the head assembly. >> 1x 300MB 5,25" ESDI, >> >> > I have a number of Micropolis ESDI and Hitachi ESDI > drives which seem to be quite reliable. Most are the > Hitachi DK-515 ESDI 5 1/4" 600 MB drives. They > are used with a PDP-11/83 system with their own > PC type power supply and fan since I doubt that using > the internal power supply from the BA123 is helpful. > The Hitachi were among the best. The Quantum D540s were also near bullet proof. > Those Hitachi drives arrived 4 in a box with that PC > type power supply in the first place which emulated > one of the VAX type of drives which DEC supported. > Since the ESDI drives were exactly what I wanted for > the PDP-11/83 and the DEC reseller had no demand > for these drives from VAX users, the price and usage > was perfect for the PDP-11/83 with an MSCP EDSI > controller. Normally, I used 3 * 600 MB drives which > were usually all identical with drive 0 being the production > drive and drives 1 and 2 being backups. > Most of the VAXEN (qbus) wanted drive larger than 300mb as VMS V5 barely fits in 150mb and with users and added software even 300mb is getting thin. >> 3x 5MB 14" RL01, >> 1x 10MB 14" RL02, >> >> > VERY reasonable for a small RT-11 system, but prone > to hardware problems (especially filters) in the long run. > RL02 was far more reliable and more common. 10MB happens to be a handy size for PDP11. >> (2x 80MB 14" SMD) (I just have a lead on those yet) >> >> > The ESDI drives are more reliable and faster. ESDI controllers > were also less expensive and more available. > >> [TK50 tape subsystem] >> > From my point of view, one of the worst backups that > DEC ever produced. While making a simple copy of > a large file is reasonable, the lack of a reasonable > streaming capability makes use of small files or a verify > of a large file extremely difficult. On the other hand, > the TK70 is a good, fast, reliable drive which I used > for many years as my primary backup until I found > some Sony SMO S-501 magneto optical drives. > ;) I just can't say enough nice things about TK50. (set user/mode:sarcasm=off) But they were the common transfer media and big for its time. that and I have a small bin full of Compact Tape I media with stuff on it. Tk70 was the one to have. There is also TLZ04 tape. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 17:51:46 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:51:46 -0400 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <20130410151518.Y25071@shell.lmi.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> <1365629677.24940.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20130410151518.Y25071@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? Tasha Yar and Data? -ethan From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 10 18:09:27 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:09:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: What is the correct material to use.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2013, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> >>> As others have pointed out, WD40 isn't a replacement for grease or >>> oil. It works great as a water displacement, such as for driving the >>> water out of parts that have been rinsed in water after cleaning with >>> a detergent based degreaser. A large percentage of WD40's ingredients >>> is a light solvent, and the small amount of oil it contains tend to >>> gum up later if not removed/supplemented by a better oil. OTOH, I do >>> not recommend the use of "3-in-1" oil for anything other than possibly >>> a door hinge. Because it is vegetable based and not petroleum based, >>> it too will gum up later. >> >> Ah, good to know on the 3-in-1 stuff. Like I said before, I tend to use >> that or the lithium grease depending on which is more readily available >> at the moment. > > Wait... I take that back... according to the MSDS, 3-in-1 is petroleum > based. > > http://www.lakeland.edu/AboutUs/MSDS/PDFs/445/3-in-1%20Oil%20%28Doyle%20Midway-WD-40%29.pdf Interesting. I wonder if they've changed the formula over the years? I was taught that it was vegetable based, however the high percentage of Heavy Naphthenic Oil /does/ help explain why it tends to gum up, since the lighter hydrocarbons are going to evaporate, leaving the heavier stuff (paraffin) behind. I think I'll stick with something like Boeshield T-9 if I need something with a high paraffin content though. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 10 18:35:01 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 17:35:01 -0600 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> <1365629677.24940.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20130410151518.Y25071@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5165F725.3040804@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/10/2013 4:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? > > Tasha Yar and Data? > > -ethan > > Give Data a break, Tasha Yar was the most computer like one. Ben. From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 10 18:36:33 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:36:33 -0000 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> <1365629677.24940.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20130410151518.Y25071@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5165F781.8090203@gewt.net> On 04/10/2013 06:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? > > Tasha Yar and Data? > > -ethan > Well...at least it's not the Borg queen... -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 10 18:37:07 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:37:07 -0400 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> <1365629677.24940.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20130410151518.Y25071@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5165F7A3.90401@neurotica.com> On 04/10/2013 06:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? > > Tasha Yar and Data? [cue 1970s porn music] "...programmed in multiple techniques..." -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 10 18:52:50 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:52:50 -0000 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> <1365629677.24940.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20130410151518.Y25071@shell.lmi.net> <5165F725.3040804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5165FB52.3090805@gewt.net> On 04/10/2013 07:35 PM, ben wrote: > > On 4/10/2013 4:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >> >> Tasha Yar and Data? >> >> -ethan >> >> > > Give Data a break, Tasha Yar was the most computer like one. She was even more computer like than actual computers! > Ben. > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Apr 10 19:21:32 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 20:21:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H780 power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201304110021.UAA22211@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Probably not that particualr PSU, but I know that some of the smaller > DEC pSUs used on Qbus systems do not work correctly unloaded. It wasn't a DEC PSU, but I once fried a PSU by running it with too little load. (It was a Sun SPARCstation SLC or ELC, I forget which, and I was using the PSU without the monitor load it was designed to always drive - http://www.sunhelp.org/~mouse is a page I wrote up for sunhelp.org which, among other things, mentions the experience.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 19:21:49 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 20:21:49 -0400 Subject: Huge Lot of Vintage Computers- Local Pick up preferred in Flushing Michigan In-Reply-To: <5165E54A.70803@csgeeks.org> References: <5165DBEE.1050404@gmail.com> <5165E54A.70803@csgeeks.org> Message-ID: On Apr 10, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Matthew D Stock wrote: > Folks, > > Beware of this guy - he scammed me out of some money recently when I offered to buy some stuff from him and he didn't ship. His ex-girlfriend (it's her paypal account, it wasn't hacked) ended up refunding me the money out of her pocket. > > But don't believe me, just do a web search and you'll see has has quite a history on the Apple mailing lists going back years. If you still choose to buy from him, do it in person and know what you're buying. How recently was that? List members have reported recent transactions with him that went just fine, and he's offering local, in-person pickup (preferred, even). As always, caveat emptor, but people can change. - Dave From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Apr 10 19:35:44 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:35:44 +0000 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8E71B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 4/9/13 6:33 PM, "Andrew Hoerter" wrote: >On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Honestly, I'm really surprised by the list. I was surprised first by >>the >> C-128, and even more surprised by the time I got to #10. I didn't take >>time >> to see if they listed criteria for the choices, but I find the machines >> selected to be odd. I for one would have put a BeBox in the list (and >>I've >> never even seen one). I'd have likely also included the G5 PowerMac >>(and >> current Mac Pro's) for their case. > >Surely the Connection Machine warrants a spot on that list, as well. > >-Andy > > Yes, the Connection Machine just stirs the primal geek instincts - which journalists do not have. I really see no rationale to their choices. From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Apr 10 19:37:06 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:37:06 +0000 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <5164D921.7000001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8E737@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 4/9/13 8:14 PM, "mc68010" wrote: >On 4/9/2013 6:04 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 10 April 2013 01:33, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- >>> >>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >> Joke, N entirely SFW: >> http://www.welookdoyou.com/fufme/ >> >> Real: >> http://www.gizmag.com/lovepalz-iphone-teledildonics-app/24254/ >> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/12/sxsw_teledildonics/ >> >> >> > >There is of course always this too http://public.enemy.org/zt_pdp11.jpg > > A photo too far.... From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Apr 10 19:40:27 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:40:27 +0000 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <5165F725.3040804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8E767@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 4/10/13 4:35 PM, "ben" wrote: >On 4/10/2013 4:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >> >> Tasha Yar and Data? >> >> -ethan >> >> > >Give Data a break, Tasha Yar was the most computer like one. >Ben. > > > You're being unkind to every computer that was ever built. Every one. No insult to the actress, she was just following the thread of execution. From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Apr 10 19:44:25 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:44:25 +0000 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <5165F7A3.90401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8E78C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 4/10/13 4:37 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >On 04/10/2013 06:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >> >> Tasha Yar and Data? > > [cue 1970s porn music] > > "...programmed in multiple techniques..." > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA > > I always wondered: who would create a *synthetic* life form and programs it to engage in what is arguably the most fundamentally biological of interactions? What could be the motivation... eww, I wish I hadn't gone there. From stock at csgeeks.org Wed Apr 10 20:00:05 2013 From: stock at csgeeks.org (Matthew D Stock) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 21:00:05 -0400 Subject: Huge Lot of Vintage Computers- Local Pick up preferred in Flushing Michigan In-Reply-To: References: <5165DBEE.1050404@gmail.com> <5165E54A.70803@csgeeks.org> Message-ID: <51660B15.1070009@csgeeks.org> On 4/10/2013 8:21 PM, David Riley wrote: > How recently was that? List members have reported recent transactions > with him that went just fine, and he's offering local, in-person > pickup (preferred, even). As always, caveat emptor, but people can > change. - Dave As of last month. Fast correspondence arranging the payment, and USPS ship code almost immediately. Said he'd drop off the package the next day. Follow up the following week, said that he missed the shipping window, and he'd be sending something in a couple of days. Another week and a half and another followup, and he says he can't ship the equipment, and then I'll get a refund in the next day or so. Another few days and another followup, and he says he doesn't have the money in paypal and will pay me as soon as he sells some other stuff. I give the guy up until the limit of the paypal dispute window to resolve the issue, repeated contacts, and nothing. If others want to roll the dice with him that's their business, but it looks like he's got a history of being hit and miss. -Matt From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 10 20:02:07 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 01:02:07 -0000 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register References: <5165F7A3.90401@neurotica.com> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8E78C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <51660B8F.9060603@gewt.net> On 04/10/2013 08:44 PM, Ian King wrote: > > On 4/10/13 4:37 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > >> On 04/10/2013 06:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >>> >>> Tasha Yar and Data? >> >> [cue 1970s porn music] >> >> "...programmed in multiple techniques..." >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA >> >> > > I always wondered: who would create a *synthetic* life form and programs > it to engage in what is arguably the most fundamentally biological of > interactions? What could be the motivation... eww, I wish I hadn't gone > there. Either to make things...easier, or to prove a point. ;) > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 20:27:20 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 21:27:20 -0400 Subject: H780 power supply In-Reply-To: <201304110021.UAA22211@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201304110021.UAA22211@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Apr 10, 2013, at 8:21 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Probably not that particualr PSU, but I know that some of the smaller >> DEC pSUs used on Qbus systems do not work correctly unloaded. > > It wasn't a DEC PSU, but I once fried a PSU by running it with too > little load. (It was a Sun SPARCstation SLC or ELC, I forget which, > and I was using the PSU without the monitor load it was designed to > always drive - http://www.sunhelp.org/~mouse is a page I wrote up for > sunhelp.org which, among other things, mentions the experience.) Yeah, if you run some of the less intelligent ones with two low a load, the duty cycle on the switcher shrinks to near zero, which means lots of sharp pulses up/down next to each other on an inductor. The end result is not nice. The smarter systems will just hold off for a period if they detect an insufficient load; the even smarter ones will switch in a dummy load automatically. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Apr 10 21:34:58 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:34:58 -0400 Subject: Huge Lot of Vintage Computers- Local Pick up preferred in Flushing Michigan In-Reply-To: References: <5165DBEE.1050404@gmail.com> <5165E54A.70803@csgeeks.org> Message-ID: <51662152.7040304@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/04/13 8:21 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 10, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Matthew D Stock wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> Beware of this guy - he scammed me out of some money recently when I offered to buy some stuff from him and he didn't ship. His ex-girlfriend (it's her paypal account, it wasn't hacked) ended up refunding me the money out of her pocket. >> >> But don't believe me, just do a web search and you'll see has has quite a history on the Apple mailing lists going back years. If you still choose to buy from him, do it in person and know what you're buying. > > How recently was that? List members have reported recent transactions I've bought from Steve before with no issues and I would buy from him again. > with him that went just fine, and he's offering local, in-person > pickup (preferred, even). Exactly. About as straight a deal as it gets. --Toby > As always, caveat emptor, but people can > change. > > > - Dave > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 22:15:02 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 04:15:02 +0100 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <20130410151518.Y25071@shell.lmi.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> <1365629677.24940.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20130410151518.Y25071@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 10 April 2013 23:26, Fred Cisin wrote: >> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? > > Barbarella and the Excessive machine? Barbarella and Diktor: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_jCh6DqlHTB4/Rkk4QFPvwXI/AAAAAAAAALA/eF7psh7vO14/s1600/Barbarella150.jpg -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 11 00:03:39 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- > > What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? This guy: http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Thu Apr 11 00:04:43 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1365656683.98307.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > >>? I am looking for a daisy wheel printer to buy >> > >> > An odd thing to desire.... >> not really, > >Wel, OK, I regater old computer periphearls as being interesting, but far >too many people think that the CPU is the only bit worth colelcting. > >> I already have two pen plotters (Desktop and cutter) >> I've ordered a dot-matrix printer > >s an? aside, I regard injet and laser printers as being dot-matrix... > yea, but they are not impact based One of those 4-colour pritner/ploters using the Alps mechanism. Everybody >and his dog sold them at some poitn -- Tandy CGP115, Commodore 1520, >there was an Atari oen, a Sharp one, theOric printer, etc. > my Roland plotter has 8 pens slots (DXY-1300) the other plotter is a papercraft cutter -tony >tom PS:? I am using them for art projects From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 11 00:10:18 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 05:10:18 -0000 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11 Apr 2013, at 01:03, "David Griffith" wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- >> >> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? > > This guy: > > http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html > ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp ?Do I WANT to click any of those? I highly doubt I do. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 11 00:43:54 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On 11 Apr 2013, at 01:03, "David Griffith" wrote: > >> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- >>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >> >> This guy: >> >> http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html >> ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp > > ?Do I WANT to click any of those? I highly doubt I do. That depends... Are you a heterosexual female or a homosexual male? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 11 00:50:56 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 05:50:56 -0000 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <471357C8-8BF8-4F71-AE4D-9982EA63F352@gewt.net> On 11 Apr 2013, at 01:43, "David Griffith" wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: > >> On 11 Apr 2013, at 01:03, "David Griffith" wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>>> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- >>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >>> >>> This guy: >>> >>> http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html >>> ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp >> >> ?Do I WANT to click any of those? I highly doubt I do. > > That depends... Are you a heterosexual female or a homosexual male? Neither. So i'll take that as a no. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 11 08:04:19 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 08:04:19 -0500 Subject: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201304111311.r3BDBlCO048989@mx1.ezwind.net> At 07:58 PM 4/7/2013, Mouse wrote: >>> By providing virtualisation, VMware is doing for Intel platforms >>> what VM/370 did onmainframes in the 1970?s. > >Is it? How easy is it to run VM-in-VM with VMware? (That's a serious >question; I have never even looked at it myself. Work has never >required it, and, like all closed-source software, it's simply not >under consideration for my home use. Someday I want to learn enough of >the x86 hypervisor hardware facilities to build a hypervisor of my own, >but so far opportunity and inclination have not coincided for that.) Yes, you can run VMware within VMware within VMware. People do it for lab testing to see how a network of VMware hosts will interact with each other. There's a performance hit, of course, but it works. Don't forget to add the complication (a.k.a. feature) that each of those VMware can have their own virtual networks and virtual switches within. And what you do within the virtual machines within each layer is your own business; run whatever emulators within emulators that you like. Also keep in mind that Windows 7 Pro gives you a free downloadable Virtual PC and a license to a Windows XP Mode, and Windows 8 Pro gives you Hyper-V. Virtualization is at the fingertips of desktop users. Functionality that once required a complicated install on its own PC is now distributed as a several-gig virtual machine that includes its own operating system. To me, this is the way that emulators should be distributed for learning purposes. I've seen so many emulators that need all sorts of hand-tweaking of the emulator's configuration that requires foreknowledge of the typical configurations of the emulated system in question. The newbie doesn't know two layers of that. Give 'em a ready-to-go typical experience in an easy download that drops into VMware Player or Hyper-V. ... Now back to your regularly scheduled programming of the latest episode of "Those Who Do Not Wish To Learn Because They Know It All, Not Being Taught By Those Who Do Not Wish To Learn How to Teach The Unteachable." - John From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 08:32:10 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 08:32:10 -0500 Subject: What is the correct material to use.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:09 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > > Interesting. I wonder if they've changed the formula over the years? I was > taught that it was vegetable based, however the high percentage of Heavy > Naphthenic Oil /does/ help explain why it tends to gum up, since the > lighter hydrocarbons are going to evaporate, leaving the heavier stuff > (paraffin) behind. > > I think I'll stick with something like Boeshield T-9 if I need something > with a high paraffin content though. > I guess we should bear in mind that the lithium grease that they used on the drives originally dries out and/or gets contaminated with dust, etc. and gets gummy over time anyway. :) Just so people don't have the wrong impression: I was NOT advocating the use of WD-40 as a replacement lubricant, but rather an aid in cleaning the drive. Also as Tony just said, the drives eject mechs will work fine without it since they will see little wear and most of the greased parts are just guides rather than bearing surfaces (although they serve that purpose to a minor degree). From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 11 08:52:02 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 08:52:02 -0500 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201304111355.r3BDt1lF053674@mx1.ezwind.net> At 01:24 PM 4/7/2013, craig at solomonson.net wrote: >I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through >some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room >had a few posters hanging on the wall. I'd love to find the original data behind the Mona Lisa that was produced by CDC that was exhibited at VCF 2.0. http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/images/monaCHC.jpg - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 11 08:54:03 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 08:54:03 -0500 Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <201304080158.VAA08569@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> <8D00211E0B25C86-828-252B4@webmail-m263.sysops.aol.com> <201304080158.VAA08569@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201304111355.r3BDt1rQ053675@mx1.ezwind.net> At 08:58 PM 4/7/2013, Mouse wrote: >I have had people tell me I should start a museum, usually after >they've done a walkthrough through my place and seen the computers I >have on hand. I saw one message in this thread say there's a >difference between a museum and an exhibition of a personal collection, I called the web page for my collection "a museum" and I get one or two people a year who call to say they'll be in the area and they'd like to visit. - John From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 09:10:10 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 15:10:10 +0100 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: <8FF46AE1-111A-4FC6-BAD5-7DE58CC39896@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> <8FF46AE1-111A-4FC6-BAD5-7DE58CC39896@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 10 April 2013 03:20, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Apr 9, at 5:41 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> On 10 April 2013 01:00, Kelly Fergason wrote: >>> >>> >>> TI 99/4a. Cliff Click gave up in disgust trying to program this >>> thing. nuf said. >> >> >> You do have a point. Interesting architecture & so on, but... >> registers in external DRAM? Really? > > > The "registers in external (D)RAM" was not a problem, that was a > characteristic (and feature) of the predecessor TI 990 minicomputer > architecture. It meant the instruction set had the efficiency of a very > orthogonal set of 16 registers to work with, but didn't have to save & > restore those registers across function call & return, you just changed the > workspace pointer and had a whole new set of registers. This was great for > modern stack-based languages and for process context-switching (if you were > doing that). It was far nicer than a two-accumulator architecture such as > the 6502 or the mish-mash register set of the 8080/Z80. I worked with the > 990 mini and 9900 microprocs at the instruction level and, in that regard > (and as much as I remember), I liked the arch. more than the PDP-11. > > I didn't directly work with the TI-99/4 but from what I read the problem > with it was it took what was a lovely 16-bit microprocessor and embedded it > in a crippled memory/support environment. Apparently only a few hundred > words of RAM were directly on the processor bus - that mem being intended > for the workspace/registers (and presumably this actually was static ram, > not DRAM) - while the majority of RAM was accessed through a slower, > secondary, 8-bit bus. Interesting - thanks for that (and for Tony's additional info, too). At least now I know that there was a reason. But crippled by a very inefficient design and implementation - is that fair? A bit like several 1990s Macs, with 32-bit processors on multiplexed 16-bit buses, yielding cheap logic boards but dire performance. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 09:29:46 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:29:46 -0400 Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <201304111355.r3BDt1rQ053675@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> <8D00211E0B25C86-828-252B4@webmail-m263.sysops.aol.com> <201304080158.VAA08569@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201304111355.r3BDt1rQ053675@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5C5E9FBE-F454-4355-8D1F-1C1B02225CE9@gmail.com> On Apr 11, 2013, at 9:54 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 08:58 PM 4/7/2013, Mouse wrote: >> I have had people tell me I should start a museum, usually after >> they've done a walkthrough through my place and seen the computers I >> have on hand. I saw one message in this thread say there's a >> difference between a museum and an exhibition of a personal collection, > > I called the web page for my collection "a museum" and I get one > or two people a year who call to say they'll be in the area and > they'd like to visit. You could always show them the server and ask for money. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 09:49:21 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:49:21 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78E19436-791C-4F01-97F6-DDB7A473518A@gmail.com> On Apr 10, 2013, at 2:25 AM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > ok, then TU58 emulation is, as I had hoped, going to float the boat for me, at least until either more machines or media to be read crop up here. If you manage to find a QBUS SCSI card (I have the CMD CQD-220, which I like a lot), you can use a Zip drive for removable storage (or even primary storage, though having done that for a bit I'm not sure I like the idea of torturing the disks like that). It's not exactly "classic", but they are plentiful and cheap and fairly reliable if you stick with the 100 MB versions. They're also BIG (in storage size) compared to an RL02, and they're much better about being dropped. :-) > Unfortunately I have no sound way to (mechanically) _mount_ and power those tiny little 5,25" disks in the '11 rack, that's why they're staying in the BA123. > I forgot the 300MB ESDI disk I got from a listmember together with a Webster Qbus controller, I'll use that one if I ever want to run a large OS on the VSII. You could always run your -11 from the BA123. It's a bit of overkill, but you can fit all the disks you want in there and pretty much never worry about running out of slots for boards. Of course, if you're actively using the MVII, don't do that. >> One last thing... >> >> Heat! Qbus 11s produce a bit of that. That means fans must all work, >> the location must not be dusty enough to load up the boards and local >> temperature not excessively hot. >> I fried a 11/23 board while working at the DEC Mill when they had an air >> conditioner fail for the office area, when the room hit 96 (36c), cpu >> went away, I had plenty of spares. So reliability and room temps are >> coupled. Qbus 11s are fairly tolerent of conditions but any you find >> are going to be old and may not like additional stress. > > A hard "CPU dead" damage without any warning? That's bad. > Good to know anyway, makes me want to add a system monitoring function > (temp and air flow) for emergency shutdown. Maybe something to design > a CD slot board for after all ;), at least before I'll run the machine > unattended. That's a fun idea. When I'm running my 11/23 in an open backplane, I make sure I have a decently powerful fan blowing through it and over the top. Those boards tend to dissipate between 10 and 20 watts each, which is nothing to sneeze at, and the CPUs can get quite locally hot. > I also forgot something: I myself wouldn't have thought of putting a NIC > (DEQNA or similar) in a pdp-11, probably just for the notion that back > in those days, computers were too few and far between to come up with the > concept of a Local Area Network. Obviously I was mistaken here, too. The QBUS LAN cards definitely have more of a "meant for VAX" feel to their documentation, IMO, but they do work fine in an -11. If you can find a DECNET distribution, you can usually even get the drivers for them running on a DEC OS as well! TCP/IP is somewhat rare, though, because the stack takes up so much room. I know Johnny Billquist mentioned that he had at least UDP running on RSX-11M+; I can't find the email now, so I can't remember about TCP. There are commercial TCP/UDP stacks for the DEC operating systems as well. If you can, I'd recommend getting a DELQA instead of a DEQNA. The DELQA is backwards-compatible with the DEQNA and is a lot more reliable (mostly due to lower power dissipation). I'm given to understand it takes a lot of load off the CPU as well. The DELQA can use the DEQNA cable kit, so no need to worry about that. - Dave From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 09:49:54 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 09:49:54 -0500 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: References: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> <8FF46AE1-111A-4FC6-BAD5-7DE58CC39896@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: The memory system implementation on the 99/4A really hampered it until you added stuff on, even then, the processor had a 16-bit data bus that they multiplexed down to 8-bits. It did have a good collection of software for the basic console though. I'd argue the absolute worst feature of the system was the high prices for the upgrades. For quite a while you could buy a reasonably complete computer system for the price of just the upgrades on the 99/4A. On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 10 April 2013 03:20, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > On 2013 Apr 9, at 5:41 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> > >> On 10 April 2013 01:00, Kelly Fergason wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> TI 99/4a. Cliff Click gave up in disgust trying to program this > >>> thing. nuf said. > >> > >> > >> You do have a point. Interesting architecture & so on, but... > >> registers in external DRAM? Really? > > > > > > The "registers in external (D)RAM" was not a problem, that was a > > characteristic (and feature) of the predecessor TI 990 minicomputer > > architecture. It meant the instruction set had the efficiency of a very > > orthogonal set of 16 registers to work with, but didn't have to save & > > restore those registers across function call & return, you just changed > the > > workspace pointer and had a whole new set of registers. This was great > for > > modern stack-based languages and for process context-switching (if you > were > > doing that). It was far nicer than a two-accumulator architecture such as > > the 6502 or the mish-mash register set of the 8080/Z80. I worked with the > > 990 mini and 9900 microprocs at the instruction level and, in that regard > > (and as much as I remember), I liked the arch. more than the PDP-11. > > > > I didn't directly work with the TI-99/4 but from what I read the problem > > with it was it took what was a lovely 16-bit microprocessor and embedded > it > > in a crippled memory/support environment. Apparently only a few hundred > > words of RAM were directly on the processor bus - that mem being intended > > for the workspace/registers (and presumably this actually was static ram, > > not DRAM) - while the majority of RAM was accessed through a slower, > > secondary, 8-bit bus. > > Interesting - thanks for that (and for Tony's additional info, too). > At least now I know that there was a reason. > > But crippled by a very inefficient design and implementation - is that > fair? A bit like several 1990s Macs, with 32-bit processors on > multiplexed 16-bit buses, yielding cheap logic boards but dire > performance. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 11 10:57:04 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 11:57:04 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <78E19436-791C-4F01-97F6-DDB7A473518A@gmail.com> References: <78E19436-791C-4F01-97F6-DDB7A473518A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5166DD50.4070608@neurotica.com> On 04/11/2013 10:49 AM, David Riley wrote: > The QBUS LAN cards definitely have more of a "meant for VAX" feel > to their documentation, IMO, but they do work fine in an -11. > If you can find a DECNET distribution, you can usually even get > the drivers for them running on a DEC OS as well! And HECnet!! Tremendous fun! > TCP/IP is > somewhat rare, though, because the stack takes up so much room. > I know Johnny Billquist mentioned that he had at least UDP > running on RSX-11M+; I can't find the email now, so I can't > remember about TCP. There are commercial TCP/UDP stacks for > the DEC operating systems as well. TCP as well!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 11 11:07:48 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 09:07:48 -0700 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: References: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> <8FF46AE1-111A-4FC6-BAD5-7DE58CC39896@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5166DFD4.3070704@sydex.com> On 04/11/2013 07:10 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > But crippled by a very inefficient design and implementation - is that > fair? A bit like several 1990s Macs, with 32-bit processors on > multiplexed 16-bit buses, yielding cheap logic boards but dire > performance. I'd say that implementing the program store for cartridges, on a serial CRU device, rather than in the main memory space, qualified as a crippled design. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Apr 11 11:37:33 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 12:37:33 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <78E19436-791C-4F01-97F6-DDB7A473518A@gmail.com> References: <78E19436-791C-4F01-97F6-DDB7A473518A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5166E6CD.8050600@verizon.net> On 04/11/2013 10:49 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 10, 2013, at 2:25 AM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > >> ok, then TU58 emulation is, as I had hoped, going to float the boat for me, at least until either more machines or media to be read crop up here. > If you manage to find a QBUS SCSI card (I have the CMD CQD-220, which > I like a lot), you can use a Zip drive for removable storage (or even > primary storage, though having done that for a bit I'm not sure I like > the idea of torturing the disks like that). It's not exactly "classic", > but they are plentiful and cheap and fairly reliable if you stick with > the 100 MB versions. They're also BIG (in storage size) compared to > an RL02, and they're much better about being dropped. :-) The CMD SCSI card is the way to go. >> Unfortunately I have no sound way to (mechanically) _mount_ and power those tiny little 5,25" disks in the '11 rack, that's why they're staying in the BA123. >> I forgot the 300MB ESDI disk I got from a listmember together with a Webster Qbus controller, I'll use that one if I ever want to run a large OS on the VSII. > You could always run your -11 from the BA123. It's a bit of overkill, > but you can fit all the disks you want in there and pretty much never > worry about running out of slots for boards. I have a complete 11 in a BA123 and that is the nicest as there are plenty of disk bays and the fans are speed controlled and generalaly quieter. Also its easier to use the RQDX controller with the breakout board for floppy and RDxx disks. imagine rx33m and 4 RD52s with room for more (TK tape bay) Add a CMD disk controller to that and use 1RZ55 and 3 RZ56s (5.4gb total) for uVAXII and that is seriously plenty. I used those as I have 10 of them and backup is a drive swap after running SABackup (image the system disk). Of course with older style PC 3.5" adaptors for the 5.25" bays 1gb and 4.3GB Baracudas can be loaded in droves. > Of course, if you're actively using the MVII, don't do that. Get another... ;) >>> One last thing... >>> >>> Heat! Qbus 11s produce a bit of that. That means fans must all work, >>> the location must not be dusty enough to load up the boards and local >>> temperature not excessively hot. >>> I fried a 11/23 board while working at the DEC Mill when they had an air >>> conditioner fail for the office area, when the room hit 96 (36c), cpu >>> went away, I had plenty of spares. So reliability and room temps are >>> coupled. Qbus 11s are fairly tolerent of conditions but any you find >>> are going to be old and may not like additional stress. >> A hard "CPU dead" damage without any warning? That's bad. >> Good to know anyway, makes me want to add a system monitoring function >> (temp and air flow) for emergency shutdown. Maybe something to design >> a CD slot board for after all ;), at least before I'll run the machine >> unattended. > That's a fun idea. When I'm running my 11/23 in an open backplane, > I make sure I have a decently powerful fan blowing through it and > over the top. Those boards tend to dissipate between 10 and 20 > watts each, which is nothing to sneeze at, and the CPUs can get > quite locally hot. Another area where the BA123 is better, cooling and airflow. >> I also forgot something: I myself wouldn't have thought of putting a NIC >> (DEQNA or similar) in a pdp-11, probably just for the notion that back >> in those days, computers were too few and far between to come up with the >> concept of a Local Area Network. Obviously I was mistaken here, too. > The QBUS LAN cards definitely have more of a "meant for VAX" feel > to their documentation, IMO, but they do work fine in an -11. The DEQNA has the mop boot for PDP11. seems that is a PDP11 thing. The DELQA deleted that. However good DEQNAs are scarce and very old, DELQAs were better and more common. In any case they existed before the Qbus MicroVAX became. > If you can find a DECNET distribution, you can usually even get > the drivers for them running on a DEC OS as well! TCP/IP is > somewhat rare, though, because the stack takes up so much room. > I know Johnny Billquist mentioned that he had at least UDP > running on RSX-11M+; I can't find the email now, so I can't > remember about TCP. There are commercial TCP/UDP stacks for > the DEC operating systems as well. > > If you can, I'd recommend getting a DELQA instead of a DEQNA. > The DELQA is backwards-compatible with the DEQNA and is a lot > more reliable (mostly due to lower power dissipation). I'm > given to understand it takes a lot of load off the CPU as well. > The DELQA can use the DEQNA cable kit, so no need to worry > about that. > The CPU load this was added around V5.* VMS as they discovered a DEQNA bug that could corrupt packets in a uVAX system so the packet has a secondary CRC16 added and does the reverse on the other side to check the data and thats all in software (real pita). Allison > - Dave > > > From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 12:39:24 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 12:39:24 -0500 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <201304111355.r3BDt1lF053674@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304111355.r3BDt1lF053674@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: http://www.vintage.org/exhibit99.html has a better picture of it from the now CHM. On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 8:52 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 01:24 PM 4/7/2013, craig at solomonson.net wrote: > >I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through > >some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and > room > >had a few posters hanging on the wall. > > > I'd love to find the original data behind the Mona Lisa that > was produced by CDC that was exhibited at VCF 2.0. > > > http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/images/monaCHC.jpg > > - John > > From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Apr 11 13:50:47 2013 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:50:47 -0500 Subject: New Flip Chip PCBs References: Message-ID: <80E99E3B1C444E1A93277E077240765C@vl420mt> A couple of folks on the VCForum talking about making new flip chip boards: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?36190-New-flip-chip-PCB-s From jws at jwsss.com Thu Apr 11 13:32:33 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 11:32:33 -0700 Subject: New Flip Chip PCBs In-Reply-To: <80E99E3B1C444E1A93277E077240765C@vl420mt> References: <80E99E3B1C444E1A93277E077240765C@vl420mt> Message-ID: <516701C1.8060205@jwsss.com> On 4/11/2013 11:50 AM, MikeS wrote: > A couple of folks on the VCForum talking about making new flip chip > boards: > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?36190-New-flip-chip-PCB-s > > I saw an earlier mention of making flip chips which this thread on vintage-computer brought back to mind. Someone suggested or built a straight 8 out of "mini" flip chips with surface mounted components. One poster there mentions the con to that is that you can't use the original modules if you were to change the form factor. However it would be more feasible to make a backplane if one selected the right edge connectors in PC form rather than wire wrap, and the overall device would make for another type of "spare time gizmos" type of artifact if done that way and replicated. Lots of work, but it would be better in some ways than doing an original form factor 8. There are Pros to that too, but obtaining supplies / parts are less in your control if you go with an actual 8 and try to match the original (using mixture of old and new parts) and also presents some problems too (wire wrap backplane would be fun). With my record of not doing much of any projects I won't be doing this one any time soon, but it would be great to see something like this happen. worth noting on the thread, the flip chip boards were going to be cut out of clad stock, not made up by a board house, and the poster was all ready with gallons of Ferric Chloride and a resist pin to make his first board. and $20 each for the boards in that form. I would think having the boards made up for you by the board house would come in for 1U Flip chips cheaper than that. also, do board houses / DEC / HP have any copyright rights to enforce over the edge card form anymore? Something like the trouble you run into taking an old IBM manual to a Staples and getting grief about copying it? Some will some are assholes. Jim From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 13:39:39 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 15:39:39 -0300 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> Message-ID: This guy: http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp MY EYES!!! I WANT MY EYES BACK!!! ooohhh O_O From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 13:40:43 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 15:40:43 -0300 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register References: <5165F7A3.90401@neurotica.com> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8E78C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <51660B8F.9060603@gewt.net> Message-ID: > I always wondered: who would create a *synthetic* life form and programs > it to engage in what is arguably the most fundamentally biological of > interactions? What could be the motivation... eww, I wish I hadn't gone > there. >Either to make things...easier, or to prove a point. ;) Ask the inventor and users of Sybian machine... >:o) From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 14:07:27 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 15:07:27 -0400 Subject: New Flip Chip PCBs In-Reply-To: <516701C1.8060205@jwsss.com> References: <80E99E3B1C444E1A93277E077240765C@vl420mt> <516701C1.8060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > worth noting on the thread, the flip chip boards were going to be cut out of clad stock, not made up by a board house, and the poster was all ready with gallons of Ferric Chloride and a resist pin to make his first board. and $20 each for the boards in that form. I would think having the boards made up for you by the board house would come in for 1U Flip chips cheaper than that. Oh yeah. For 2-sided boards? Sure. I know Andrew Lynch's S100 boards run $20 each, and they're solder-masked and silkscreened as well, not to mention about 3 times larger than a flip chip. And you don't even need to turn your hands yellow. I gave up ferric chloride etching in high school. I couldn't get the yields up high enough. I was always tempted to try the photoresist presensitized stuff, but it was EXPENSIVE, so I never did. - Dave From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 11 14:13:59 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:13:59 -0500 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: <201304111355.r3BDt1lF053674@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201304111915.r3BJFm8H090633@mx1.ezwind.net> At 12:39 PM 4/11/2013, Sam O'nella wrote: >http://www.vintage.org/exhibit99.html has a better picture of it from the >now CHM. "Better" as in that one is 320 x 240 pixels and mine was 122 x 184? :) - John From xmechanic at landcomp.net Thu Apr 11 14:30:30 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:30:30 -0600 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <201304111355.r3BDt1lF053674@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304111355.r3BDt1lF053674@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <51670F56.4010601@landcomp.net> On 4/11/13 7:52 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 01:24 PM 4/7/2013, craig at solomonson.net wrote: >> I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through >> some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room >> had a few posters hanging on the wall. > > > I'd love to find the original data behind the Mona Lisa that > was produced by CDC that was exhibited at VCF 2.0. > > http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/images/monaCHC.jpg > > - John > > > Here's a Wikipedia link that has some interesting stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII_art -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 11 14:32:32 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 12:32:32 -0700 Subject: What is the correct material to use.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51670FD0.4080604@sydex.com> I try to stay away from oils when it comes to magnetic media. Particularly in floppy drives, where the air pressure inside the case is often negative with respect to the outside, dust and dirt get sucked in at an amazing rate. I use pure silicone lube or a dry moly lube such as Drislide: http://www.drislide.com/ to keep the dirt accumulation down. --Chuck From wilson at dbit.com Thu Apr 11 14:34:17 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 15:34:17 -0400 Subject: New Flip Chip PCBs In-Reply-To: References: <80E99E3B1C444E1A93277E077240765C@vl420mt> <516701C1.8060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20130411193417.GA30070@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 03:07:27PM -0400, David Riley wrote: >I gave up ferric chloride etching in high school. I couldn't get the >yields up high enough. I was always tempted to try the photoresist >presensitized stuff, but it was EXPENSIVE, so I never did. I tried it a little and had no luck getting consistent exposure. The pens don't cover too well either (but they'll do in a pinch). The Datak direct-etch dry transfers work *great* but it's a hell of a lot of work for each board. Haven't touched any of this in ages -- these days I'm a germ farmer (septic tank). I'm not sure a gallon or two of FeCl3 would be enough to sterilize it but there's no way I'm risking it just to save a few $$$ from oshpark.com (which kicks ass) or batchpcb.com (which used to until they botched a web-site upgrade last September and still can't be bothered to fix it). John Wilson D Bit From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 11 14:41:54 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:41:54 -0500 Subject: not exactly true vintage... Message-ID: <02dd01ce36ec$9eb72eb0$dc258c10$@com> I have a PlayStation 1 and PlayStation 2, each with 1 controller, both tested working. $100 plus shipping takes them both home. Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6237 - Release Date: 04/10/13 From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 14:48:02 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 15:48:02 -0400 Subject: What is the correct material to use.. In-Reply-To: <51670FD0.4080604@sydex.com> References: <51670FD0.4080604@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2013, at 3:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I use pure silicone lube or a dry moly lube such as Drislide: > > http://www.drislide.com/ Oh, hey, I never knew about that stuff. Looks like I need to get some. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 11 14:49:03 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 12:49:03 -0700 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <201304111915.r3BJFm8H090633@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304111355.r3BDt1lF053674@mx1.ezwind.net> <201304111915.r3BJFm8H090633@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <516713AF.9090403@sydex.com> On 04/11/2013 12:13 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 12:39 PM 4/11/2013, Sam O'nella wrote: >> http://www.vintage.org/exhibit99.html has a better picture of it from the >> now CHM. > > > "Better" as in that one is 320 x 240 pixels and mine was 122 x 184? :) My recollection of the ML was that it was a FORTRAN program with data cards. It took quite a while to print even on a fast (512) line printer because of the multiple overstrikes (those can really bog a printer down). My vote's still for the Playboy bunny. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 11 15:53:49 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 13:53:49 -0700 Subject: New Flip Chip PCBs In-Reply-To: <80E99E3B1C444E1A93277E077240765C@vl420mt> References: <80E99E3B1C444E1A93277E077240765C@vl420mt> Message-ID: <516722DD.30502@bitsavers.org> On 4/11/13 11:50 AM, MikeS wrote: > A couple of folks on the VCForum talking about making new flip chip boards: > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?36190-New-flip-chip-PCB-s > > does this mean I can sell off my R series modules for $20 ea? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 11 14:55:13 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:55:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <20130410151518.Y25071@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 10, 13 03:26:42 pm Message-ID: > > > What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? Quite a lot of people, I expect, if that computer was of the appropriate gender and attractive. Rememebr the older meaning of 'computer' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 11 15:20:29 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:20:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer In-Reply-To: <1365656683.98307.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Apr 10, 13 10:04:43 pm Message-ID: > One of those 4-colour pritner/ploters using the Alps mechanism. Everybody > >and his dog sold them at some poitn -- Tandy CGP115, Commodore 1520, > >there was an Atari oen, a Sharp one, theOric printer, etc. > > > my Roland plotter has 8 pens slots (DXY-1300) > the other plotter is a papercraft cutter Sure, I understnad (although I always prefered HP plotters, I have several, including the 7470 Opt 003 (HPIL interface for the HP41, etc) and even a 9125A (for the HP9100). But that little Alps unit is somewhat odd, and IMHO deserves a place i na colleciton of hard copy peripherals. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 11 15:28:12 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:28:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Apr 11, 13 03:10:10 pm Message-ID: [TI99/4A] > But crippled by a very inefficient design and implementation - is that Yes, I think that's a resaonable way of putting it. > fair? A bit like several 1990s Macs, with 32-bit processors on > multiplexed 16-bit buses, yielding cheap logic boards but dire > performance. I suspect you'll know this, but which 1980s (8 bit) microcomptuer had 4-bit wide RAM at the hardware level? (The hardware did 2 memory cycles to make up an 8 bit byte ot give to the processor). -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 16:10:30 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 16:10:30 -0500 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE Message-ID: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> I found a Mac Performa 6400/200VEE at the dump today, but no keyboard / rodent / display. It seems to have 128MB of RAM installed, along with a video I/O board (the 'VEE' bit, I suppose) and Ethernet board. The downside is that there's some significant battery corrosion toward the bottom of the system board PCB. I'll try some vinegar and see how it goes, but obviously it doesn't make sense to source a keyboard, mouse and display from anywhere if the system's toast. 1) Is it possible to wire the 15-pin monitor connector up to a PC's VGA monitor? Or, 2) Can I hook the composite out on the video I/O board up to a TV and expect to be able to see something at boot time? (I'm not sure if that board's only initialized after the system's booted) Done with hard disk disconnected, obviously - but will the system even output anything to the display with no keyboard or mouse present? cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 11 16:11:56 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 16:11:56 -0500 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <516713AF.9090403@sydex.com> References: <201304111355.r3BDt1lF053674@mx1.ezwind.net> <201304111915.r3BJFm8H090633@mx1.ezwind.net> <516713AF.9090403@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201304112112.r3BLCHRB003630@mx1.ezwind.net> At 02:49 PM 4/11/2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >My recollection of the ML was that it was a FORTRAN program with data cards. It took quite a while to print even on a fast (512) line printer because of the multiple overstrikes (those can really bog a printer down). Was that Mona Lisa in the CHM / VCF exhibit done on a plotter or a printer? I have no doubt there were overstrike or printed versions, but I thought that one had something different about it. - John From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 11 16:51:47 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:51:47 -0700 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <201304112112.r3BLCHRB003630@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304111355.r3BDt1lF053674@mx1.ezwind.net> <201304111915.r3BJFm8H090633@mx1.ezwind.net> <516713AF.9090403@sydex.com> <201304112112.r3BLCHRB003630@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <51673073.4050301@sydex.com> On 04/11/2013 02:11 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 02:49 PM 4/11/2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> My recollection of the ML was that it was a FORTRAN program with data cards. It took quite a while to print even on a fast (512) line printer because of the multiple overstrikes (those can really bog a printer down). > > Was that Mona Lisa in the CHM / VCF exhibit done on a plotter or a printer? > > I have no doubt there were overstrike or printed versions, but I thought > that one had something different about it. The only ons that I saw was line-printer art. But that CHM one could be something else. --Chuck From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 11 17:24:13 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:24:13 -0000 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11 Apr 2013, at 17:10, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > > > I found a Mac Performa 6400/200VEE at the dump today, but no keyboard / rodent / display. > > It seems to have 128MB of RAM installed, along with a video I/O board (the 'VEE' bit, I suppose) and Ethernet board. The downside is that there's some significant battery corrosion toward the bottom of the system board PCB. > > I'll try some vinegar and see how it goes, but obviously it doesn't make sense to source a keyboard, mouse and display from anywhere if the system's toast. > > 1) Is it possible to wire the 15-pin monitor connector up to a PC's VGA monitor? Or, > > 2) Can I hook the composite out on the video I/O board up to a TV and expect to be able to see something at boot time? (I'm not sure if that board's only initialized after the system's booted) If my PowerMac 8600 is any indication, yes. You should be able to. > > Done with hard disk disconnected, obviously - but will the system even output anything to the display with no keyboard or mouse present? It /should/ still try to boot. You could always throw a floppy in. > > cheers > > Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 17:33:19 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 18:33:19 -0400 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2013, at 17:10, Jules Richardson wrote: > I found a Mac Performa 6400/200VEE at the dump today, but no keyboard / rodent / display. Is that the smooth-cornered minitower? Those things were nightmarish to take apart, but otherwise ok. > It seems to have 128MB of RAM installed, along with a video I/O board (the 'VEE' bit, I suppose) and Ethernet board. The downside is that there's some significant battery corrosion toward the bottom of the system board PCB. > > I'll try some vinegar and see how it goes, but obviously it doesn't make sense to source a keyboard, mouse and display from anywhere if the system's toast. > > 1) Is it possible to wire the 15-pin monitor connector up to a PC's VGA monitor? Or, Yes. Adaptors aren't hard to come by, and that generation of Mac should support DDC codes from modern VGA monitors. The absolute best adaptor to use, if you can find it, is the Griffin MacPnP adaptor, which has a bank of DIP switches to set the monitor sense codes (necessary for older, more finicky Macs) and/or pass the DDC lines through. I have a number of Mac/VGA adaptors, some of which just pass the sense lines through verbatim and some of which have the sense code hard wired to what the manufacturer thought was right (for example, a 1024x768 VGA monitor came with an adaptor that was hard-wired to declare that it only supported 640x480 and 832x624). > 2) Can I hook the composite out on the video I/O board up to a TV and expect to be able to see something at boot time? (I'm not sure if that board's only initialized after the system's booted) Maybe. Not as familiar with this one. > Done with hard disk disconnected, obviously - but will the system even output anything to the display with no keyboard or mouse present? Yup! It'll boot all the way that way, though it won't be very useful unless you have a server in the Startup Items folder or something. If all is well, you'll see a grey (B&W checkered) screen and a floppy with a question mark if there's no startup disk. If you need a mouse, I have a few spares of which I could send one. I wish I had spare keyboards, but for some reason, my ADB keyboard collection seems to have shrunk. - Dave From jws at jwsss.com Thu Apr 11 17:34:17 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 15:34:17 -0700 Subject: New Flip Chip PCBs In-Reply-To: <20130411193417.GA30070@dbit.dbit.com> References: <80E99E3B1C444E1A93277E077240765C@vl420mt> <516701C1.8060205@jwsss.com> <20130411193417.GA30070@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <51673A69.20308@jwsss.com> On 4/11/2013 12:34 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 03:07:27PM -0400, David Riley wrote: >> I gave up ferric chloride etching in high school. I couldn't get the >> yields up high enough. I was always tempted to try the photoresist >> presensitized stuff, but it was EXPENSIVE, so I never did. > I tried it a little and had no luck getting consistent exposure. > The pens don't cover too well either (but they'll do in a pinch). > The Datak direct-etch dry transfers work *great* but it's a hell > of a lot of work for each board. > > Haven't touched any of this in ages -- these days I'm a germ farmer > (septic tank). I'm not sure a gallon or two of FeCl3 would be enough to > sterilize it but there's no way I'm risking it just to save a few $$$ > from oshpark.com (which kicks ass) or batchpcb.com (which used to until > they botched a web-site upgrade last September and still can't be bothered > to fix it). My understanding was that they charged more by the hole than by size. Also double sided if the layout was doable that way would make the board order from a real board house way cheaper. Andrew's latest SCSI board is $12 and area wise not that much less than these flip chip cards being discussed. In the quantity that a mass buy for multiple builds of straight 8's would scale to, I'd think the price would get pretty reasonable. I knew the fellow who did the card tabs here in Orange County, Stu Phillips for MDB, Dilog and Emulex, but he died a few years ago, and I think his company changed hands. Otherwise I'd look him up and try to get his dies. The dies cost, the runs and material don't. Helped that he knew some tool and die makers who owed him to get into the business in the first place. If anyone can trace the Stu Phillips, and you can point me at whoever might still control it, I could ask about the dies, as I doubt they were discarded. Jim > John Wilson > D Bit > > From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 11 17:40:46 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:40:46 -0000 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <553AA005-ABF1-4479-8321-4858D812D358@gewt.net> On 11 Apr 2013, at 18:33, "David Riley" wrote: > > On Apr 11, 2013, at 17:10, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I found a Mac Performa 6400/200VEE at the dump today, but no keyboard / rodent / display. > > Is that the smooth-cornered minitower? Those things were > nightmarish to take apart, but otherwise ok. > >> It seems to have 128MB of RAM installed, along with a video I/O board (the 'VEE' bit, I suppose) and Ethernet board. The downside is that there's some significant battery corrosion toward the bottom of the system board PCB. >> >> I'll try some vinegar and see how it goes, but obviously it doesn't make sense to source a keyboard, mouse and display from anywhere if the system's toast. >> >> 1) Is it possible to wire the 15-pin monitor connector up to a PC's VGA monitor? Or, > > Yes. Adaptors aren't hard to come by, and that generation of > Mac should support DDC codes from modern VGA monitors. > The absolute best adaptor to use, if you can find it, is the > Griffin MacPnP adaptor, which has a bank of DIP switches > to set the monitor sense codes (necessary for older, more > finicky Macs) and/or pass the DDC lines through. I have > a number of Mac/VGA adaptors, some of which just pass > the sense lines through verbatim and some of which have > the sense code hard wired to what the manufacturer thought > was right (for example, a 1024x768 VGA monitor came with > an adaptor that was hard-wired to declare that it only > supported 640x480 and 832x624). > >> 2) Can I hook the composite out on the video I/O board up to a TV and expect to be able to see something at boot time? (I'm not sure if that board's only initialized after the system's booted) > > Maybe. Not as familiar with this one. > >> Done with hard disk disconnected, obviously - but will the system even output anything to the display with no keyboard or mouse present? > > Yup! It'll boot all the way that way, though it won't be very > useful unless you have a server in the Startup Items folder > or something. If all is well, you'll see a grey (B&W checkered) > screen and a floppy with a question mark if there's no > startup disk. I've seen the B&W chequered screen when my 8600 has booted properly before interestingly enough. > > If you need a mouse, I have a few spares of which I > could send one. I wish I had spare keyboards, but for > some reason, my ADB keyboard collection seems to > have shrunk. My 8600 kind of in dire straits and it's difficult to get a new OS install on it (due to a failing drive) and I don't want to put too much more effort in to it right now...so I could give you my ADB keyboard if you need. > > > - Dave > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 17:49:25 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 18:49:25 -0400 Subject: Designing a replacement Alps Plotter drive gear (was Re: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer) Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 4:20 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> One of those 4-colour pritner/ploters using the Alps mechanism. Everybody >> >and his dog sold them at some poitn -- Tandy CGP115, Commodore 1520, >> >there was an Atari oen, a Sharp one, theOric printer, etc. > > But that little Alps unit is somewhat odd, and IMHO deserves a place i na > colleciton of hard copy peripherals. Mention of the Alps plotter reminds me that we've had various discussions about all the plotter mechs with broken gears but we've never worked out the details on fabricating replacement gears. I've learned a lot about fabrication over the past couple of years, so I wanted to take another stab at the discussion to fill in the parts I don't (yet) understand... So I was looking at this gear generator... http://woodgears.ca/gear_cutting/template.html ... thinking that you can't fabricate a good replacement until you have the data on what you are replacing. I'd like to try to make either a flat (DXF) design file or a 3D (STL) design file of a gear replacement candidate. It's possible that with so few leaves (teeth) and such a small size (1/8" / 3mm across the face, 1/20" / 1.27mm shaft) that there will be fiddling for undercut, etc., but I wanted to at least make *something* that could be tried for good fit. So that web-based tool can make a bitmap image of a gear given the right data, but my own 2D CAD skills aren't honed enough to draft up a DXF of a gear. Is there anyone on the list here who is good with 2D CAD and has time to make an image of a gear? I'm fine with turning that into 3D and seeing how things would all turn out. I still have several broken plotters and would like to get them working again. Cheers, -ethan From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 17:58:02 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 18:58:02 -0400 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > It seems to have 128MB of RAM installed, along with a video I/O board (the > 'VEE' bit, I suppose) and Ethernet board. The downside is that there's some > significant battery corrosion toward the bottom of the system board PCB. > You *need* the battery for the system to boot. It's probably a 1/2 AA 3.6V lithium. Given the age and the corrosion, you probably need a new one. > 2) Can I hook the composite out on the video I/O board up to a TV and > expect to be able to see something at boot time? (I'm not sure if that > board's only initialized after the system's booted) > No, the video out will default to the display connector until you boot and get into the Sound & Video control panel to change it. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Apr 11 18:06:48 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:06:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <201304112112.r3BLCHRB003630@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304111355.r3BDt1lF053674@mx1.ezwind.net> <201304111915.r3BJFm8H090633@mx1.ezwind.net> <516713AF.9090403@sydex.com> <201304112112.r3BLCHRB003630@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2013, John Foust wrote: > At 02:49 PM 4/11/2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> My recollection of the ML was that it was a FORTRAN program with data cards. It took quite a while to print even on a fast (512) line printer because of the multiple overstrikes (those can really bog a printer down). > > Was that Mona Lisa in the CHM / VCF exhibit done on a plotter or a printer? > > I have no doubt there were overstrike or printed versions, but I thought > that one had something different about it. Internet sources state that the "Mona by the Numbers" image was done on a plotter. There is some info and a few links at the bottom of this page: http://rostenbach.com/mona/mona.htm Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 11 18:07:58 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 23:07:58 -0000 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8E100A50-A3DF-4353-AC4E-BB98EB8B3222@gewt.net> On 11 Apr 2013, at 18:58, "Jason McBrien" wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> It seems to have 128MB of RAM installed, along with a video I/O board (the >> 'VEE' bit, I suppose) and Ethernet board. The downside is that there's some >> significant battery corrosion toward the bottom of the system board PCB. >> > > You *need* the battery for the system to boot. It's probably a 1/2 AA 3.6V > lithium. Given the age and the corrosion, you probably need a new one. > > >> 2) Can I hook the composite out on the video I/O board up to a TV and >> expect to be able to see something at boot time? (I'm not sure if that >> board's only initialized after the system's booted) >> > > No, the video out will default to the display connector until you boot and > get into the Sound & Video control panel to change it. Really? When was the 6400 released? Is it old-world + open firmware? If not, that would explain why my 8600 does and the 6400 won't. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 18:19:13 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:19:13 -0400 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <553AA005-ABF1-4479-8321-4858D812D358@gewt.net> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <553AA005-ABF1-4479-8321-4858D812D358@gewt.net> Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2013, at 18:40, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: > > I've seen the B&W chequered screen when my 8600 has booted properly before interestingly enough. Nothing wrong with it; it's just the first screen that comes up (somewhat analogous to the BIOS POST screen on a PC). >> If you need a mouse, I have a few spares of which I >> could send one. I wish I had spare keyboards, but for >> some reason, my ADB keyboard collection seems to >> have shrunk. > > My 8600 kind of in dire straits and it's difficult to get a new OS install on it (due to a failing drive) and I don't want to put too much more effort in to it right now...so I could give you my ADB keyboard if you need. If you're ever looking to get rid of the 8600 itself, I can give it a good home. :-) - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 18:21:20 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:21:20 -0400 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <04C993FD-5C86-4F3D-9DCC-6362D590537A@gmail.com> On Apr 11, 2013, at 18:58, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> It seems to have 128MB of RAM installed, along with a video I/O board (the >> 'VEE' bit, I suppose) and Ethernet board. The downside is that there's some >> significant battery corrosion toward the bottom of the system board PCB. > > You *need* the battery for the system to boot. It's probably a 1/2 AA 3.6V > lithium. Given the age and the corrosion, you probably need a new one. Most Power Macs of that vintage will boot without one, or with a dead one. Later ones had issues because the PMU would crash, making it difficult to start up. >> 2) Can I hook the composite out on the video I/O board up to a TV and >> expect to be able to see something at boot time? (I'm not sure if that >> board's only initialized after the system's booted) > > No, the video out will default to the display connector until you boot and > get into the Sound & Video control panel to change it. That's my recollection of how the AV Quadras worked, but I wasn't sure if that carried over to the terminal OldWorld machines. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 18:23:24 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:23:24 -0400 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <8E100A50-A3DF-4353-AC4E-BB98EB8B3222@gewt.net> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <8E100A50-A3DF-4353-AC4E-BB98EB8B3222@gewt.net> Message-ID: <7E3C82D2-4A7B-4720-B818-FAAA2E013B32@gmail.com> On Apr 11, 2013, at 19:07, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: >>> 2) Can I hook the composite out on the video I/O board up to a TV and >>> expect to be able to see something at boot time? (I'm not sure if that >>> board's only initialized after the system's booted) >> >> No, the video out will default to the display connector until you boot and >> get into the Sound & Video control panel to change it. > > Really? When was the 6400 released? Is it old-world + open firmware? If not, that would explain why my 8600 does and the 6400 won't. They're *both* OldWorld machines. I don't recall which version of OF each one used, but NetBSD's macppc site has a table. - Dave From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 11 18:26:03 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 23:26:03 -0000 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <553AA005-ABF1-4479-8321-4858D812D358@gewt.net> Message-ID: <59E78944-6B9F-49F9-A93D-98F7AB5273D6@gewt.net> On 11 Apr 2013, at 19:19, "David Riley" wrote: > > On Apr 11, 2013, at 18:40, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: > >> >> I've seen the B&W chequered screen when my 8600 has booted properly before interestingly enough. > > Nothing wrong with it; it's just the first screen that comes > up (somewhat analogous to the BIOS POST screen on a > PC). > >>> If you need a mouse, I have a few spares of which I >>> could send one. I wish I had spare keyboards, but for >>> some reason, my ADB keyboard collection seems to >>> have shrunk. >> >> My 8600 kind of in dire straits and it's difficult to get a new OS install on it (due to a failing drive) and I don't want to put too much more effort in to it right now...so I could give you my ADB keyboard if you need. > > If you're ever looking to get rid of the 8600 itself, I can give > it a good home. :-) I'm willing to give it up. It needs a good cleaning however?some plastic is also missing from the casing. It's got a G4 upgrade and about 384M RAM iirc. IDE controller and USB 1.1, too. Contact me off-list if you're interested. I'm sure we can work something out. > > > > - Dave > > From pye at mactec.com.au Thu Apr 11 19:28:17 2013 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:28:17 +1000 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/04/2013, at 8:58 AM, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> It seems to have 128MB of RAM installed, along with a video I/O board (the >> 'VEE' bit, I suppose) and Ethernet board. The downside is that there's some >> significant battery corrosion toward the bottom of the system board PCB. >> > > You *need* the battery for the system to boot. It's probably a 1/2 AA 3.6V > lithium. Given the age and the corrosion, you probably need a new one. Don't those compact Performa machines use a square 4.5V alkaline battery? And yes, I do believe that they require a battery to start. From bobvines00 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 19:57:59 2013 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 20:57:59 -0400 Subject: Designing a replacement Alps Plotter drive gear (was Re: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer) Message-ID: > Message: 26 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 18:49:25 -0400 > From: Ethan Dicks > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Designing a replacement Alps Plotter drive gear (was Re: > looking for Daisy Wheel Printer) > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > [snip] > > Mention of the Alps plotter reminds me that we've had various discussions > about all the plotter mechs with broken gears but we've never worked out > the details on fabricating replacement gears. I've learned a lot about > fabrication over the past couple of years, so I wanted to take another stab > at the discussion to fill in the parts I don't (yet) understand... > > So I was looking at this gear generator... > > http://woodgears.ca/gear_cutting/template.html > > ... thinking that you can't fabricate a good replacement until you > have the data on what you are replacing. I'd like to try to make > either a flat (DXF) design file or a 3D (STL) design file of a > gear replacement candidate. It's possible that with so few > leaves (teeth) and such a small size (1/8" / 3mm across the > face, 1/20" / 1.27mm shaft) that there will be fiddling for > undercut, etc., but I wanted to at least make *something* > that could be tried for good fit. > > So that web-based tool can make a bitmap image of a > gear given the right data, but my own 2D CAD skills aren't > honed enough to draft up a DXF of a gear. Is there anyone > on the list here who is good with 2D CAD and has time > to make an image of a gear? I'm fine with turning that into > 3D and seeing how things would all turn out. I still have > several broken plotters and would like to get them working > again. > > Cheers, > > -ethan Ethan, I may be able to draw up a gear like this, but like the "gear generator," I'd have to have the correct gear data to know what to draw. I'm willing to try. What specs should I try to draw a gear to? I have access to both 2D & 3D drafting/modeling software (AutoCAD & SolidWorks). Do you intend to use a 3D printer to try to manufacture the gear? I suppose these gears are spur gears with involute gear teeth. What is the pressure angle? What is the total number of teeth? What is the pitch diameter? You said the face width is 1/8-inch and the shaft hole fits a 1.27mm diameter shaft. Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear) has all this info and more -- I'm pretty sure that you are interested in only spur gears right now, so you can skim over the other gear-type information on that page. Knowing the gear specs may even allow someone to go to the "small gear" catalogs and maybe even be able to select an "off-the-shelf" gear for each needed gear. It's possible. Let me know, Bob From bobvines00 at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 20:06:49 2013 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:06:49 -0400 Subject: Designing a replacement Alps Plotter drive gear (was Re: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Bob Vines wrote: >> Message: 26 >> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 18:49:25 -0400 >> From: Ethan Dicks >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: Designing a replacement Alps Plotter drive gear (was Re: >> looking for Daisy Wheel Printer) >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> > [snip] >> >> Mention of the Alps plotter reminds me that we've had various discussions >> about all the plotter mechs with broken gears but we've never worked out >> the details on fabricating replacement gears. I've learned a lot about >> fabrication over the past couple of years, so I wanted to take another stab >> at the discussion to fill in the parts I don't (yet) understand... >> >> So I was looking at this gear generator... >> >> http://woodgears.ca/gear_cutting/template.html >> >> ... thinking that you can't fabricate a good replacement until you >> have the data on what you are replacing. I'd like to try to make >> either a flat (DXF) design file or a 3D (STL) design file of a >> gear replacement candidate. It's possible that with so few >> leaves (teeth) and such a small size (1/8" / 3mm across the >> face, 1/20" / 1.27mm shaft) that there will be fiddling for >> undercut, etc., but I wanted to at least make *something* >> that could be tried for good fit. >> >> So that web-based tool can make a bitmap image of a >> gear given the right data, but my own 2D CAD skills aren't >> honed enough to draft up a DXF of a gear. Is there anyone >> on the list here who is good with 2D CAD and has time >> to make an image of a gear? I'm fine with turning that into >> 3D and seeing how things would all turn out. I still have >> several broken plotters and would like to get them working >> again. >> >> Cheers, >> >> -ethan > > Ethan, > > I may be able to draw up a gear like this, but like the "gear > generator," I'd have to have the correct gear data to know what to > draw. I'm willing to try. > > What specs should I try to draw a gear to? I have access to both 2D & > 3D drafting/modeling software (AutoCAD & SolidWorks). > Do you intend to use a 3D printer to try to manufacture the gear? > > I suppose these gears are spur gears with involute gear teeth. > What is the pressure angle? > What is the total number of teeth? > What is the pitch diameter? > You said the face width is 1/8-inch and the shaft hole fits a 1.27mm > diameter shaft. > > Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear) has all this info and > more -- I'm pretty sure that you are interested in only spur gears > right now, so you can skim over the other gear-type information on > that page. > > Knowing the gear specs may even allow someone to go to the "small > gear" catalogs and maybe even be able to select an "off-the-shelf" > gear for each needed gear. It's possible. > > > Let me know, > > Bob I forgot to add links to Stock Drive Products/Sterling Instrument (http://www.sdp-si.com/index.asp), McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/?m=true#standard-gears/=ma4xe6), or even a big dog in the gear world, Boston Gear (http://bostongear.com/products/open/sg.html). SDP/SI specializes in small precision gears, et al. Bob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 20:29:30 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:29:30 -0400 Subject: Designing a replacement Alps Plotter drive gear (was Re: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Bob Vines wrote: >> Mention of the Alps plotter reminds me that we've had various discussions >> about all the plotter mechs with broken gears but we've never worked out >> the details... > I may be able to draw up a gear like this, but like the "gear > generator," I'd have to have the correct gear data to know what to > draw. Understandable. If I had more numbers up front, I would have given them. > What specs should I try to draw a gear to? I have access to both 2D & > 3D drafting/modeling software (AutoCAD & SolidWorks). > Do you intend to use a 3D printer to try to manufacture the gear? I do not. I was contemplating trying to laser-cut some out of Delrin sheet, something I did not have access to the last time this conversation made its rounds. As before, FDM printers do not have the resolution for such a tiny part, and other technologies (sintered powder or UV-cured resin) are likely to be too brittle, especially with such fine features. > I suppose these gears are spur gears with involute gear teeth. As far as I know that is true. > What is the pressure angle? I do not know. > What is the total number of teeth? > What is the pitch diameter? I do not know without digging out a printer to check. I used to have 4MP close-up pictures (taken with my gear in 2003 back when Electronic Goldmine was surplusing the bare Alps printer mechs for a few dollars) but I don't know exactly where those photos are at the moment. My best approach right now would be to drop one on a high-res flatbed scanner (1200 dpi) to get a reasonable "to scale" picture, but I don't have a gear in front of me at the moment (I do have them in town). > You said the face width is 1/8-inch and the shaft hole fits a 1.27mm > diameter shaft. That's what I've scraped from previous conversations about this gear. I now own a micrometer so with a gear in hand, I have a chance of confirming that to better accuracy. > Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear) has all this info and > more -- I'm pretty sure that you are interested in only spur gears > right now, so you can skim over the other gear-type information on > that page. *nods* > Knowing the gear specs may even allow someone to go to the "small > gear" catalogs and maybe even be able to select an "off-the-shelf" > gear for each needed gear. It's possible. I think we (the cctalk community at the time) looked into that and nobody had such tiny gears with so few large teeth in their catalog. There were calls to remove a gear and make castings (most gears are already broken making that difficult) or using a lathe to make a fresh brass gear, etc. Someone apparently did take a stab at a homemade brass gear but declared it too expensive to warrant starting up a small run. Perhaps hobby CNC has evolved to the point now where one could do a gear with less labor and make an individually cut gear easily enough to justify selling it for around $5. Or not. If I have a DXF or EPS of the face of the gear, I can see if the laser cutter can make an approximation out of Delrin for nearly free (I just spend a few minutes when I'm already working on a run and as long as I don't work past the quarter-hour billing tick on the tool, the time is already paid for by the other job). I'm not positive that this will work, but the cost is so low that it's worth a stab. Just need the silhouette to scale and I'm good to go. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 20:41:10 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:41:10 -0400 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54B6E5A8-4ECE-4571-9DA3-C8B2E8556E73@gmail.com> On Apr 11, 2013, at 20:28, Chris Pye wrote: > > On 12/04/2013, at 8:58 AM, Jason McBrien wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Jules Richardson < >> jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> It seems to have 128MB of RAM installed, along with a video I/O board (the >>> 'VEE' bit, I suppose) and Ethernet board. The downside is that there's some >>> significant battery corrosion toward the bottom of the system board PCB. >> >> You *need* the battery for the system to boot. It's probably a 1/2 AA 3.6V >> lithium. Given the age and the corrosion, you probably need a new one. > > Don't those compact Performa machines use a square 4.5V alkaline battery? > > And yes, I do believe that they require a battery to start. I had forgotten about those batteries. Man, those machines were a pain. The web seems to agree about the booting thing, though I've found that with a lot of Macs that will give a chime but not boot all the way when the battery is dead, they'll boot if you do a restart (with the button if your machine has one, or cmd-ctrl-power on the keyboard otherwise). My LC475 does that, for example. - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 20:45:50 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 02:45:50 +0100 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <54B6E5A8-4ECE-4571-9DA3-C8B2E8556E73@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <54B6E5A8-4ECE-4571-9DA3-C8B2E8556E73@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12 April 2013 02:41, David Riley wrote: > > I had forgotten about those batteries. Man, those machines > were a pain. The web seems to agree about the booting > thing, though I've found that with a lot of Macs that will > give a chime but not boot all the way when the battery is > dead, they'll boot if you do a restart (with the button if > your machine has one, or cmd-ctrl-power on the keyboard > otherwise). My LC475 does that, for example. Aha! I've seen that too. Did not realise that was the cause. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 21:16:54 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:16:54 -0400 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <54B6E5A8-4ECE-4571-9DA3-C8B2E8556E73@gmail.com> Message-ID: <71028E10-CC97-4CC1-A0DB-FAA9F229D662@gmail.com> On Apr 11, 2013, at 9:45 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 12 April 2013 02:41, David Riley wrote: >> >> I had forgotten about those batteries. Man, those machines >> were a pain. The web seems to agree about the booting >> thing, though I've found that with a lot of Macs that will >> give a chime but not boot all the way when the battery is >> dead, they'll boot if you do a restart (with the button if >> your machine has one, or cmd-ctrl-power on the keyboard >> otherwise). My LC475 does that, for example. > > Aha! I've seen that too. Did not realise that was the cause. I mostly see it in PMU-based machines, which mostly means NewWorld machines, but not exclusively. The LC475, being a 68K machine, is obviously not a PMU machine, but it had some issues booting cold if the battery was dead. I was always able to boot it (as well as a lot of later Macs with the same issue) with a force reset/warm boot. The 6400 series was near the end of the line for the OldWorld architecture. It wouldn't surprise me if there weren't some oddball architectural features in there. Do I recall correctly that the slotted motherboard is pretty much the same form factor as the Quadra/LC 630 with the weird card-edge connector for the I/O? - Dave From jws at jwsss.com Thu Apr 11 21:24:06 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:24:06 -0700 Subject: PDP 8 components file for spice Message-ID: <51677046.4030901@jwsss.com> The discussion thread about the flip chips had a discussion about a spice model. there is a file missing and I wonder if anyone knows where it might be found thanks JIm .INCLUDE ../PDP8/PDP8_COMPONENTS.cir From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Apr 11 19:55:11 2013 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:55:11 -0300 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201304120235.r3C2ZMI4042956@mx1.ezwind.net> Tony Duell wrote: > [TI99/4A] > > > But crippled by a very inefficient design and implementation - is that > > Yes, I think that's a resaonable way of putting it. I have one, and can imagine how nice it would have been with 16KW of internal RAM. Back in 1980 I got to use a TMS9900 based computer from Fluke for a few months. I have never found any information at all about this machine on the web, but it really showed off the performance that you could get from this processor. It had a built-in wide screen CRT with a touch screen and besides the floppy drive it had a 128KB bubble memory "disk" and a nice GPIB interface. It was in the "sewing machine" form factor and might have come out before the Osborn-1. Ah, searching for "Fluke instrument TMS9900 GPIB" instead of "Fluke computer" got me several manuals for the Fluke 1722A at archive.org, which is the computer I remembered. The manuals are from 1983 and 1984, but I am 100% sure I used it in early 1981. > > fair? A bit like several 1990s Macs, with 32-bit processors on > > multiplexed 16-bit buses, yielding cheap logic boards but dire > > performance. > > > I suspect you'll know this, but which 1980s (8 bit) microcomptuer had > 4-bit wide RAM at the hardware level? (The hardware did 2 memory cycles > to make up an 8 bit byte ot give to the processor). To be fair, using the paged mode in DRAMs you got two bits out nearly as fast as one. I imagine this project was related to the SEQ pin in a certain processor, though I have no idea if one inspired the other or if they both came out of the same set of "underground" experiments. The Macintosh SE used the same trick to fetch 32 bits at a time for the video, half as many times as older models. This more complicated change only resulted in half the improvement they could have gotten from a trivial redesign to make use of 1987 DRAM chips: http://www.merlintec.com/lsi/mac512.html -- Jecel From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 11 21:38:01 2013 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 19:38:01 -0700 Subject: Tektronix graphic systems available across the pond (Belgium) In-Reply-To: <71028E10-CC97-4CC1-A0DB-FAA9F229D662@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <54B6E5A8-4ECE-4571-9DA3-C8B2E8556E73@gmail.com> <71028E10-CC97-4CC1-A0DB-FAA9F229D662@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51677389.40306@sbcglobal.net> I got the following email from a previousTektronix Support Engineer. Located in Belgium. He does want some money for the stuff, not just giving it away. There are some interesting items available so I hope someone on his side of the pond can make a deal. I did get his permission to post it here, so go at it. Bo ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sirs , Are you interested in acquiring following computer stuff at a fair reasonable price ? It concerns : > Two Tektronix scientific graphic computers 4052 full options. > All the user manuals and service manuals. > The hardware diagnostic ROM set with manual. > Thereby several boxes with original spare parts and firmware rom sets and memory chips. > All the replacement boards from the service department , exception a display-board. > A couple of MAGTAPE interchangable read/write units. >12 brandnew magtape cardridges. > Both 4052 do work. A brand new spare 4052 CRT is also available. > A Tektronix "CPM/86" computer model 4170 with options F30 and F31. > The 4170 has 5 optional RS232 connectors to interface whatever RS232 devices. > There is a RS232 connector for the main video terminal like the Tektronix 4208 > and one RS232 for connection with a host computer. > A 20 Mbyte HARDDISK drive is build-in. A spare 20 Mbyte drive is also available. > The harddisk contains all the support software. > Lots of 5-1/4 inch large floppys with the CPM operating system and FORTRAN + graphic Libraries. > Utilities like "KERMIT"is present as well as the "TEKNICAD" application (Say , TEK's equivalent to AutoCad). > The 4170 wheighs 23 Kilo's = 46 Lbs. > The dimentions are 60 X 60 X 23 cm = 0,6 x 0,6 X 0,23 meters. > To complete the story , I have 3 (three) graphic terminals Tektronix model 4208 with keyboards. > The complete set of original service microfilms (98 views per sheet) INCLUDING the Optical microfilmviewer. > The microfilm is about hardware, the options, the "cpm" OS , fortran86 +Libs , and all the application software > and libraries of the 4170. All technical schematics as well > As extra I offer free of charge a graphic color workstation monitor (20"-SONY , 1280 x 1024). > This color monitor can be connected to any DB15 VGA connector of any PC ( R G B H V) I used to work as support engineer for Tektronix. Tell me if you are interested for this stuff. Sincere Greetings, Florent Van Vlasselaer. Belgium. Florent Van Vlasselaer From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 11 21:40:29 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 02:40:29 -0000 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <553AA005-ABF1-4479-8321-4858D812D358@gewt.net> <59E78944-6B9F-49F9-A93D-98F7AB5273D6@gewt.net> Message-ID: <5126AA0E-3414-4B83-BD3A-586FC307D412@gewt.net> On 11 Apr 2013, at 19:26, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: > > > > On 11 Apr 2013, at 19:19, "David Riley" wrote: > >> >> On Apr 11, 2013, at 18:40, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: >> >>> >>> I've seen the B&W chequered screen when my 8600 has booted properly before interestingly enough. >> >> Nothing wrong with it; it's just the first screen that comes >> up (somewhat analogous to the BIOS POST screen on a >> PC). >> >>>> If you need a mouse, I have a few spares of which I >>>> could send one. I wish I had spare keyboards, but for >>>> some reason, my ADB keyboard collection seems to >>>> have shrunk. >>> >>> My 8600 kind of in dire straits and it's difficult to get a new OS install on it (due to a failing drive) and I don't want to put too much more effort in to it right now...so I could give you my ADB keyboard if you need. >> >> If you're ever looking to get rid of the 8600 itself, I can give >> it a good home. :-) > > I'm willing to give it up. It needs a good cleaning however?some plastic is also missing from the casing. It's got a G4 upgrade and about 384M RAM iirc. IDE controller and USB 1.1, too. I also have a VGA adapter for it and it has the AV personality card. > > Contact me off-list if you're interested. I'm sure we can work something out. > >> >> >> >> - Dave >> >> > > From evan at snarc.net Thu Apr 11 21:48:39 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:48:39 -0400 Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <1016adaa79a87519ef93eff4cdf56511.squirrel@www.solomonson.net> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> <1016adaa79a87519ef93eff4cdf56511.squirrel@www.solomonson.net> Message-ID: <51677607.2080003@snarc.net> >> You might want to consider an area science museum and approach them with the idea of having a display area. YES. WHAT HE SAID. Here in NJ, we were fortunate to have the opposite happen: an area science museum approached us with the idea of having a computer history display area. Being wide-eyed and foolish, we accepted. ;) That was 8 years ago. The science museum gave us copious amounts of physical space for very little money. So "fortunate" barely even describes our unique situation. We fell into a pile of gold is more like it. But be careful what you wish for ... as Will and others noted, it's A LOT OF WORK. And again, "a lot" is an understatement. It's akin to opening a business or having a child: you have to be ultra-devoted to the cause, or else it will fail. By "devoted" I don't just mean morally. You have to be prepared to create / find / make resources -- time, volunteers, funds, displays, time, funds, and did I mention time and funds? Make sure you can do all of that BEFORE asking people to donate artifacts. Otherwise, it's fraud (in the plain English sense.) If I had to start from scratch, and our local generous science museum didn't exist, then I'd probably approach the CS department of a community college to request display space, and I'd focus on the history of your hyper-local region. Aside: a privately owned collection located in a privately owned place is not a museum. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 21:57:40 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:57:40 -0400 Subject: PDP 8 components file for spice In-Reply-To: <51677046.4030901@jwsss.com> References: <51677046.4030901@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <86F6704C-9635-44D7-B69E-3743CBE64C49@gmail.com> On Apr 11, 2013, at 22:24, Jim Stephens wrote: > The discussion thread about the flip chips had a discussion about a spice model. > > there is a file missing and I wonder if anyone knows where it might be found > > thanks > JIm > > .INCLUDE ../PDP8/PDP8_COMPONENTS.cir That could be anything. Is this an official model, or just a model someone came up with? If it's the latter, there's a good probability that it's just a conglomeration of parts definitions that someone copy and pasted together to make a library. - Dave From wilson at dbit.com Fri Apr 12 00:15:38 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 01:15:38 -0400 Subject: New Flip Chip PCBs In-Reply-To: <51673A69.20308@jwsss.com> References: <80E99E3B1C444E1A93277E077240765C@vl420mt> <516701C1.8060205@jwsss.com> <20130411193417.GA30070@dbit.dbit.com> <51673A69.20308@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20130412051538.GA5410@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 03:34:17PM -0700, Jim Stephens wrote: >My understanding was that they charged more by the hole than by size. >Also double sided if the layout was doable that way would make the >board order from a real board house way cheaper. Oshpark.com and batchpcb.com charge *only* by size, which is great for tiny SMT stuff but gets expensive quickly for flip-chips or dual/quad modules which have to be big no matter how sparsely populated they are. I've had small-volume prototype stuff done all over (very good prices in Macau) but for stuff in big enough volumes to sell, I've been doing everything in the US since the EPA may be largely useless but at least it eventually puts a stop to *really* needless pollution, and I'm worried about what happens to waste in less regulated countries. And in the US, getting any kind of real area for $12 a pop wouldn't be easy... >I knew the fellow who did the card tabs here in Orange County, Stu >Phillips for MDB, Dilog and Emulex, but he died a few years ago, and >I think his company changed hands. Oh man I'm so sorry to hear that! I've seen his name stamped on the back of tons of handles and if I ever found the contact information I swear I've got for him around here somewhere, I was going to order a run of "D Bit" handles, if he was still making them. He did really nice work. >Otherwise I'd look him up and try to get his dies. The dies cost, >the runs and material don't. Helped that he knew some tool and die >makers who owed him to get into the business in the first place. I've never held any 3D-printed output in my own hands and the pictures I've seen vary from "suspiciously perfect" to "looks like shredded wheat", so I don't know if it's dumb to ask if 3D-printed flip-chip handles could handle the violence of doing their job? Same question about DEC-style edge connectors and/or obsolete Mate-N-Loks (either way the contacts aren't much of a problem to dig up but the shells are long gone). Otherwise, what really goes into making a die? I've got an el cheapo Sieg X2 mini-mill and lots of free time ... and there are lots of plastics companies here in western Mass ... yeah another dumb question. John Wilson D Bit From charles at uniwho.com Thu Apr 11 09:40:44 2013 From: charles at uniwho.com (Charles Phillips) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:40:44 -0400 Subject: LCIII Recap - Apple design fault -47uF reversed! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DBF3CB-9A82-4C15-B514-2D26DA4B5726@uniwho.com> Hey can anyone shed some light on this topic? LCIII Recap - Apple design fault -47uF reversed! http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=20936 On Apr 11, 2013, at 10:34 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 10 worst computers of all time (Tony Duell) > 2. Re: What is the correct material to use.. (Tony Duell) > 3. Re: pdp-11/23 config (allison) > 4. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > (Ethan Dicks) > 5. Re: What is the correct material to use.. (Tothwolf) > 6. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register (ben) > 7. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > (Cory Smelosky) > 8. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > (Dave McGuire) > 9. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > (Cory Smelosky) > 10. Re: H780 power supply (Mouse) > 11. Re: Huge Lot of Vintage Computers- Local Pick up preferred in > Flushing Michigan (David Riley) > 12. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > (Ian King) > 13. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > (Ian King) > 14. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > (Ian King) > 15. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > (Ian King) > 16. Re: Huge Lot of Vintage Computers- Local Pick up preferred in > Flushing Michigan (Matthew D Stock) > 17. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > (Cory Smelosky) > 18. Re: H780 power supply (David Riley) > 19. Re: Huge Lot of Vintage Computers- Local Pick up preferred in > Flushing Michigan (Toby Thain) > 20. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > (Liam Proven) > 21. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > (David Griffith) > 22. Re: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer (Tom Sparks) > 23. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > (Cory Smelosky) > 24. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > (David Griffith) > 25. Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > (Cory Smelosky) > 26. Re: Re: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving (John Foust) > 27. Re: What is the correct material to use.. (Geoffrey Oltmans) > 28. Re: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's (John Foust) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:15:05 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 10 worst computers of all time > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >>> TI 99/4a. Cliff Click gave up in disgust trying to program this >>> thing. nuf said. >> >> You do have a point. Interesting architecture & so on, but... >> registers in external DRAM? Really? > > IIRC, the worst feature wa that (in the base configuration) there was > almsot no RAM (if any at all) on the processor bus. Yor BASIC program ws > stored in spare locations of the video RAM. This meant that (a) readign > the BASIC program to execute it was ridiculously slow and (b) you > couldn't program it in machine code (since the RAM was not on the > processor bus). ARGH! > > > I think I Would put the VAX 11/730 on the list of 'daftest hardware > designs'. even though I like the machine overall. The processor microcode > is stored in DRAM. No I am not joking. This means that the procesosr has > to be haled every few ms while the control store RAM is refreshed. Every > other machine I've see with a writeable control store (that is, the > microcode is in RAM not ROM) has ued static RAM for this, for obvious > reasons. > > -tony > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:04:47 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: What is the correct material to use.. > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> I'm in the process of restoring some original Macs (a 128 and 512) with a >> friend and we have come across an issue with a floppy drive that is >> strictly mechanical, and am wondering what others have done. >> >> On the original 400K floppies there is a pin on the side that moves up and >> down as the floppy goes in, and is ejected which in some sense locks the >> floppy in either position. On one of these drives, the pivot point where >> this pin connects to the rest of the mechanism isn't as "free" as it should >> be, and initially caused the drive to be either stuck in the open or closed >> position. We've cleaned around the pin (Q-tips and isopropyl alcohol) and >> then lubricated it with some WD-40 (using Q-tip as well) as a start. This > > N omatter waht is says o nthe can, Wanton Destruciton 40 is nto a > usitable lubricant for small mechanisms. In fact this might be what is > gummign things up > > On similar SOny drive,s I take them apart as far as possible and creally > clean the parts with propan-2-ol. Keep on workign them back and forth to > get the gunged-up grease out. > > Normally they will work properly with no lubricant at all. And wear on > osemthing like an eject mechansim should be minimal. > > -tony > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:42:40 -0400 > From: allison > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: pdp-11/23 config > Message-ID: <5165EAE0.4000005 at verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 04/10/2013 11:42 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> Arno Kletzander wrote: >> >>> OK, seems we mixed up logically and physically large drives here. >>> I have about none of the first, but several of the latter category >>> amongst those in question for the machines we're discussing here: >>> 1(2)x RD53 5,25" MFM >>> >>> >> Please be aware that most (maybe now almost all) RD53 >> drives have failed with the head stuck problem. If you have >> an RD53 which can still be read, it is strongly suggested that >> you copy the contents to a more reliable drive. It is possible >> to open and remove the sticky mess without a clean room, >> but read the notes over the past 5 or 10 years which describe >> how it should be done. I would agree to use an RD53 as a >> scratch drive for temporary storage, but not for saving files >> after the drive is powered down. If anyone has any MTBF >> stats after the sticky mess has been removed in terms of >> how many hours of actually using the drive, that would be >> helpful. >> > I have one I did that on back in the late 80s and it still runs. > I's gotten at least three years solid power on time in a PC > and after retirement there Its in a current PDP11 and still > runs at least 30 hours a year. > > I have a bunch I've done that to. A few have failed due to > controller board issues (saved as media spares) and one > the media is physically good but the controller borked > and wrote all over the servo tracks. No reformat possible > for the servo information. > > It was a very good drive save for the gummy rubber bumper > in the head assembly. > >>> 1x 300MB 5,25" ESDI, >>> >>> >> I have a number of Micropolis ESDI and Hitachi ESDI >> drives which seem to be quite reliable. Most are the >> Hitachi DK-515 ESDI 5 1/4" 600 MB drives. They >> are used with a PDP-11/83 system with their own >> PC type power supply and fan since I doubt that using >> the internal power supply from the BA123 is helpful. >> > The Hitachi were among the best. > > The Quantum D540s were also near bullet proof. > > >> Those Hitachi drives arrived 4 in a box with that PC >> type power supply in the first place which emulated >> one of the VAX type of drives which DEC supported. >> Since the ESDI drives were exactly what I wanted for >> the PDP-11/83 and the DEC reseller had no demand >> for these drives from VAX users, the price and usage >> was perfect for the PDP-11/83 with an MSCP EDSI >> controller. Normally, I used 3 * 600 MB drives which >> were usually all identical with drive 0 being the production >> drive and drives 1 and 2 being backups. >> > Most of the VAXEN (qbus) wanted drive larger than 300mb > as VMS V5 barely fits in 150mb and with users and added > software even 300mb is getting thin. > >>> 3x 5MB 14" RL01, >>> 1x 10MB 14" RL02, >>> >>> >> VERY reasonable for a small RT-11 system, but prone >> to hardware problems (especially filters) in the long run. >> > RL02 was far more reliable and more common. 10MB happens to > be a handy size for PDP11. > >>> (2x 80MB 14" SMD) (I just have a lead on those yet) >>> >>> >> The ESDI drives are more reliable and faster. ESDI controllers >> were also less expensive and more available. >> >>> [TK50 tape subsystem] >>> >> From my point of view, one of the worst backups that >> DEC ever produced. While making a simple copy of >> a large file is reasonable, the lack of a reasonable >> streaming capability makes use of small files or a verify >> of a large file extremely difficult. On the other hand, >> the TK70 is a good, fast, reliable drive which I used >> for many years as my primary backup until I found >> some Sony SMO S-501 magneto optical drives. >> > ;) > I just can't say enough nice things about TK50. > (set user/mode:sarcasm=off) > > But they were the common transfer media and big for its time. > that and I have a small bin full of Compact Tape I media with > stuff on it. Tk70 was the one to have. > > There is also TLZ04 tape. > > > Allison > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:51:46 -0400 > From: Ethan Dicks > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? > > Tasha Yar and Data? > > -ethan > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 18:09:27 -0500 (CDT) > From: Tothwolf > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: What is the correct material to use.. > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Wed, 10 Apr 2013, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: >>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >>> >>>> As others have pointed out, WD40 isn't a replacement for grease or >>>> oil. It works great as a water displacement, such as for driving the >>>> water out of parts that have been rinsed in water after cleaning with >>>> a detergent based degreaser. A large percentage of WD40's ingredients >>>> is a light solvent, and the small amount of oil it contains tend to >>>> gum up later if not removed/supplemented by a better oil. OTOH, I do >>>> not recommend the use of "3-in-1" oil for anything other than possibly >>>> a door hinge. Because it is vegetable based and not petroleum based, >>>> it too will gum up later. >>> >>> Ah, good to know on the 3-in-1 stuff. Like I said before, I tend to use >>> that or the lithium grease depending on which is more readily available >>> at the moment. >> >> Wait... I take that back... according to the MSDS, 3-in-1 is petroleum >> based. >> >> http://www.lakeland.edu/AboutUs/MSDS/PDFs/445/3-in-1%20Oil%20%28Doyle%20Midway-WD-40%29.pdf > > Interesting. I wonder if they've changed the formula over the years? I was > taught that it was vegetable based, however the high percentage of Heavy > Naphthenic Oil /does/ help explain why it tends to gum up, since the > lighter hydrocarbons are going to evaporate, leaving the heavier stuff > (paraffin) behind. > > I think I'll stick with something like Boeshield T-9 if I need something > with a high paraffin content though. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 17:35:01 -0600 > From: ben > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: <5165F725.3040804 at jetnet.ab.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 4/10/2013 4:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >> >> Tasha Yar and Data? >> >> -ethan >> >> > > Give Data a break, Tasha Yar was the most computer like one. > Ben. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:36:33 -0000 > From: "Cory Smelosky" > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: <5165F781.8090203 at gewt.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > On 04/10/2013 06:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >> >> Tasha Yar and Data? >> >> -ethan >> > > Well...at least it's not the Borg queen... > > -- > Cory Smelosky > http://gewt.net Personal stuff > http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 19:37:07 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: <5165F7A3.90401 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 04/10/2013 06:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >> >> Tasha Yar and Data? > > [cue 1970s porn music] > > "...programmed in multiple techniques..." > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:52:50 -0000 > From: "Cory Smelosky" > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: <5165FB52.3090805 at gewt.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > On 04/10/2013 07:35 PM, ben wrote: >> >> On 4/10/2013 4:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >>> >>> Tasha Yar and Data? >>> >>> -ethan >>> >>> >> >> Give Data a break, Tasha Yar was the most computer like one. > > She was even more computer like than actual computers! > >> Ben. >> > > > -- > Cory Smelosky > http://gewt.net Personal stuff > http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 20:21:32 -0400 (EDT) > From: Mouse > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: H780 power supply > Message-ID: <201304110021.UAA22211 at Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >> Probably not that particualr PSU, but I know that some of the smaller >> DEC pSUs used on Qbus systems do not work correctly unloaded. > > It wasn't a DEC PSU, but I once fried a PSU by running it with too > little load. (It was a Sun SPARCstation SLC or ELC, I forget which, > and I was using the PSU without the monitor load it was designed to > always drive - http://www.sunhelp.org/~mouse is a page I wrote up for > sunhelp.org which, among other things, mentions the experience.) > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 20:21:49 -0400 > From: David Riley > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Huge Lot of Vintage Computers- Local Pick up preferred in > Flushing Michigan > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > On Apr 10, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Matthew D Stock wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> Beware of this guy - he scammed me out of some money recently when I offered to buy some stuff from him and he didn't ship. His ex-girlfriend (it's her paypal account, it wasn't hacked) ended up refunding me the money out of her pocket. >> >> But don't believe me, just do a web search and you'll see has has quite a history on the Apple mailing lists going back years. If you still choose to buy from him, do it in person and know what you're buying. > > How recently was that? List members have reported recent transactions > with him that went just fine, and he's offering local, in-person > pickup (preferred, even). As always, caveat emptor, but people can > change. > > > - Dave > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:35:44 +0000 > From: Ian King > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > , "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: > <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8E71B at 505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On 4/9/13 6:33 PM, "Andrew Hoerter" wrote: > >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>> Honestly, I'm really surprised by the list. I was surprised first by >>> the >>> C-128, and even more surprised by the time I got to #10. I didn't take >>> time >>> to see if they listed criteria for the choices, but I find the machines >>> selected to be odd. I for one would have put a BeBox in the list (and >>> I've >>> never even seen one). I'd have likely also included the G5 PowerMac >>> (and >>> current Mac Pro's) for their case. >> >> Surely the Connection Machine warrants a spot on that list, as well. >> >> -Andy >> >> > > Yes, the Connection Machine just stirs the primal geek instincts - which > journalists do not have. I really see no rationale to their choices. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:37:06 +0000 > From: Ian King > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: > <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8E737 at 505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On 4/9/13 8:14 PM, "mc68010" wrote: > >> On 4/9/2013 6:04 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> On 10 April 2013 01:33, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- >>>> >>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >>> Joke, N entirely SFW: >>> http://www.welookdoyou.com/fufme/ >>> >>> Real: >>> http://www.gizmag.com/lovepalz-iphone-teledildonics-app/24254/ >>> >>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/12/sxsw_teledildonics/ >>> >>> >>> >> >> There is of course always this too http://public.enemy.org/zt_pdp11.jpg >> >> > > A photo too far.... > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:40:27 +0000 > From: Ian King > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: > <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8E767 at 505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On 4/10/13 4:35 PM, "ben" wrote: > >> On 4/10/2013 4:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >>> >>> Tasha Yar and Data? >>> >>> -ethan >>> >>> >> >> Give Data a break, Tasha Yar was the most computer like one. >> Ben. >> >> >> > > You're being unkind to every computer that was ever built. Every one. No > insult to the actress, she was just following the thread of execution. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:44:25 +0000 > From: Ian King > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: > <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8E78C at 505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On 4/10/13 4:37 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > >> On 04/10/2013 06:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >>> >>> Tasha Yar and Data? >> >> [cue 1970s porn music] >> >> "...programmed in multiple techniques..." >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA >> >> > > I always wondered: who would create a *synthetic* life form and programs > it to engage in what is arguably the most fundamentally biological of > interactions? What could be the motivation... eww, I wish I hadn't gone > there. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 21:00:05 -0400 > From: Matthew D Stock > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Huge Lot of Vintage Computers- Local Pick up preferred in > Flushing Michigan > Message-ID: <51660B15.1070009 at csgeeks.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 4/10/2013 8:21 PM, David Riley wrote: >> How recently was that? List members have reported recent transactions >> with him that went just fine, and he's offering local, in-person >> pickup (preferred, even). As always, caveat emptor, but people can >> change. - Dave > > As of last month. Fast correspondence arranging the payment, and USPS > ship code almost immediately. Said he'd drop off the package the next > day. Follow up the following week, said that he missed the shipping > window, and he'd be sending something in a couple of days. Another week > and a half and another followup, and he says he can't ship the > equipment, and then I'll get a refund in the next day or so. Another > few days and another followup, and he says he doesn't have the money in > paypal and will pay me as soon as he sells some other stuff. > > I give the guy up until the limit of the paypal dispute window to > resolve the issue, repeated contacts, and nothing. If others want to > roll the dice with him that's their business, but it looks like he's got > a history of being hit and miss. > -Matt > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 01:02:07 -0000 > From: "Cory Smelosky" > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: <51660B8F.9060603 at gewt.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > On 04/10/2013 08:44 PM, Ian King wrote: >> >> On 4/10/13 4:37 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >> >>> On 04/10/2013 06:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >>>> >>>> Tasha Yar and Data? >>> >>> [cue 1970s porn music] >>> >>> "...programmed in multiple techniques..." >>> >>> -- >>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>> New Kensington, PA >>> >>> >> >> I always wondered: who would create a *synthetic* life form and programs >> it to engage in what is arguably the most fundamentally biological of >> interactions? What could be the motivation... eww, I wish I hadn't gone >> there. > > Either to make things...easier, or to prove a point. ;) > >> >> > > > -- > Cory Smelosky > http://gewt.net Personal stuff > http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 21:27:20 -0400 > From: David Riley > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: H780 power supply > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > On Apr 10, 2013, at 8:21 PM, Mouse wrote: > >>> Probably not that particualr PSU, but I know that some of the smaller >>> DEC pSUs used on Qbus systems do not work correctly unloaded. >> >> It wasn't a DEC PSU, but I once fried a PSU by running it with too >> little load. (It was a Sun SPARCstation SLC or ELC, I forget which, >> and I was using the PSU without the monitor load it was designed to >> always drive - http://www.sunhelp.org/~mouse is a page I wrote up for >> sunhelp.org which, among other things, mentions the experience.) > > Yeah, if you run some of the less intelligent ones with two low a > load, the duty cycle on the switcher shrinks to near zero, which > means lots of sharp pulses up/down next to each other on an > inductor. The end result is not nice. The smarter systems will > just hold off for a period if they detect an insufficient load; > the even smarter ones will switch in a dummy load automatically. > > > - Dave > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:34:58 -0400 > From: Toby Thain > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Huge Lot of Vintage Computers- Local Pick up preferred in > Flushing Michigan > Message-ID: <51662152.7040304 at telegraphics.com.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/04/13 8:21 PM, David Riley wrote: >> On Apr 10, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Matthew D Stock wrote: >> >>> Folks, >>> >>> Beware of this guy - he scammed me out of some money recently when I offered to buy some stuff from him and he didn't ship. His ex-girlfriend (it's her paypal account, it wasn't hacked) ended up refunding me the money out of her pocket. >>> >>> But don't believe me, just do a web search and you'll see has has quite a history on the Apple mailing lists going back years. If you still choose to buy from him, do it in person and know what you're buying. >> >> How recently was that? List members have reported recent transactions > > I've bought from Steve before with no issues and I would buy from him again. > > > >> with him that went just fine, and he's offering local, in-person >> pickup (preferred, even). > > Exactly. About as straight a deal as it gets. > > --Toby > >> As always, caveat emptor, but people can >> change. >> >> >> - Dave >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 04:15:02 +0100 > From: Liam Proven > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > On 10 April 2013 23:26, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >> >> Barbarella and the Excessive machine? > > Barbarella and Diktor: > > http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_jCh6DqlHTB4/Rkk4QFPvwXI/AAAAAAAAALA/eF7psh7vO14/s1600/Barbarella150.jpg > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:03:39 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Griffith > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- >> >> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? > > This guy: > > http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html > ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:04:43 -0700 (PDT) > From: Tom Sparks > To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Subject: Re: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer > Message-ID: > <1365656683.98307.YahooMailNeo at web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > >>>> ? I am looking for a daisy wheel printer to buy >>>> >>>> An odd thing to desire.... >>> not really, >> >> Wel, OK, I regater old computer periphearls as being interesting, but far >> too many people think that the CPU is the only bit worth colelcting. >> >>> I already have two pen plotters (Desktop and cutter) >>> I've ordered a dot-matrix printer >> >> s an? aside, I regard injet and laser printers as being dot-matrix... >> > yea, but they are not impact based > > One of those 4-colour pritner/ploters using the Alps mechanism. Everybody >> and his dog sold them at some poitn -- Tandy CGP115, Commodore 1520, >> there was an Atari oen, a Sharp one, theOric printer, etc. >> > my Roland plotter has 8 pens slots (DXY-1300) > the other plotter is a papercraft cutter > > > -tony >> tom > PS:? I am using them for art projects > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 05:10:18 -0000 > From: "Cory Smelosky" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > On 11 Apr 2013, at 01:03, "David Griffith" wrote: > >> >> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- >>> >>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >> >> This guy: >> >> http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html >> ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp > > ?Do I WANT to click any of those? I highly doubt I do. > >> >> -- >> David Griffith >> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu >> >> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >> A: Top-posting. >> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 22:43:54 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Griffith > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Thu, 11 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: > >> On 11 Apr 2013, at 01:03, "David Griffith" wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>>> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- >>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >>> >>> This guy: >>> >>> http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html >>> ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp >> >> ?Do I WANT to click any of those? I highly doubt I do. > > That depends... Are you a heterosexual female or a homosexual male? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 05:50:56 -0000 > From: "Cory Smelosky" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > Message-ID: <471357C8-8BF8-4F71-AE4D-9982EA63F352 at gewt.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > On 11 Apr 2013, at 01:43, "David Griffith" wrote: > >> >> On Thu, 11 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> >>> On 11 Apr 2013, at 01:03, "David Griffith" wrote: >>> >>>> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> >>>>> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- >>>>> What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? >>>> >>>> This guy: >>>> >>>> http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html >>>> ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp >>> >>> ?Do I WANT to click any of those? I highly doubt I do. >> >> That depends... Are you a heterosexual female or a homosexual male? > > Neither. So i'll take that as a no. > >> >> -- >> David Griffith >> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu >> >> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >> A: Top-posting. >> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 08:04:19 -0500 > From: John Foust > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Re: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving > Message-ID: <201304111311.r3BDBlCO048989 at mx1.ezwind.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > At 07:58 PM 4/7/2013, Mouse wrote: >>>> By providing virtualisation, VMware is doing for Intel platforms >>>> what VM/370 did onmainframes in the 1970?s. >> >> Is it? How easy is it to run VM-in-VM with VMware? (That's a serious >> question; I have never even looked at it myself. Work has never >> required it, and, like all closed-source software, it's simply not >> under consideration for my home use. Someday I want to learn enough of >> the x86 hypervisor hardware facilities to build a hypervisor of my own, >> but so far opportunity and inclination have not coincided for that.) > > > Yes, you can run VMware within VMware within VMware. People do it > for lab testing to see how a network of VMware hosts will interact > with each other. There's a performance hit, of course, but it works. > > Don't forget to add the complication (a.k.a. feature) that each of > those VMware can have their own virtual networks and virtual switches > within. And what you do within the virtual machines within each layer > is your own business; run whatever emulators within emulators that > you like. > > Also keep in mind that Windows 7 Pro gives you a free downloadable > Virtual PC and a license to a Windows XP Mode, and Windows 8 Pro gives > you Hyper-V. Virtualization is at the fingertips of desktop users. > Functionality that once required a complicated install on its own > PC is now distributed as a several-gig virtual machine that includes > its own operating system. > > To me, this is the way that emulators should be distributed for > learning purposes. I've seen so many emulators that need all sorts > of hand-tweaking of the emulator's configuration that requires > foreknowledge of the typical configurations of the emulated system > in question. The newbie doesn't know two layers of that. Give 'em > a ready-to-go typical experience in an easy download that drops into > VMware Player or Hyper-V. > > ... Now back to your regularly scheduled programming of the latest episode > of "Those Who Do Not Wish To Learn Because They Know It All, Not Being > Taught By Those Who Do Not Wish To Learn How to Teach The Unteachable." > > - John > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 27 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 08:32:10 -0500 > From: Geoffrey Oltmans > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: What is the correct material to use.. > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:09 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> >> Interesting. I wonder if they've changed the formula over the years? I was >> taught that it was vegetable based, however the high percentage of Heavy >> Naphthenic Oil /does/ help explain why it tends to gum up, since the >> lighter hydrocarbons are going to evaporate, leaving the heavier stuff >> (paraffin) behind. >> >> I think I'll stick with something like Boeshield T-9 if I need something >> with a high paraffin content though. >> > > I guess we should bear in mind that the lithium grease that they used on > the drives originally dries out and/or gets contaminated with dust, etc. > and gets gummy over time anyway. :) > > Just so people don't have the wrong impression: I was NOT advocating the > use of WD-40 as a replacement lubricant, but rather an aid in cleaning the > drive. Also as Tony just said, the drives eject mechs will work fine > without it since they will see little wear and most of the greased parts > are just guides rather than bearing surfaces (although they serve that > purpose to a minor degree). > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 28 > Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 08:52:02 -0500 > From: John Foust > To: > Subject: Re: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's > Message-ID: <201304111355.r3BDt1lF053674 at mx1.ezwind.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > At 01:24 PM 4/7/2013, craig at solomonson.net wrote: >> I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through >> some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room >> had a few posters hanging on the wall. > > > I'd love to find the original data behind the Mona Lisa that > was produced by CDC that was exhibited at VCF 2.0. > > http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/images/monaCHC.jpg > > - John > > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 116, Issue 32 > *************************************** From amh at POBOX.COM Thu Apr 11 17:37:27 2013 From: amh at POBOX.COM (Andrew Hoerter) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 18:37:27 -0400 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > 1) Is it possible to wire the 15-pin monitor connector up to a PC's VGA > monitor? Or, I'm not familiar with that specific model, but if it's the old style Mac video connector, adapters to VGA are widely available. I use this one with my older Macs: http://www.amazon.com/Adapter-DB15-Male-HD15-Female/dp/B0016OC1J2 I think the design is widely cloned, I've seen it under a number of brands. IIRC, you can wire your own cable provided the monitor supports sync-on-green (best to check if that machine is SOG, I'm not sure if that's true of all Macs from that time). Some adapters may handle SOG... some may not. -Andy From rwiker at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 00:36:57 2013 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 07:36:57 +0200 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I suspect you'll know this, but which 1980s (8 bit) microcomptuer had > 4-bit wide RAM at the hardware level? (The hardware did 2 memory cycles > to make up an 8 bit byte ot give to the processor). > Acorn Electron? From rwiker at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 00:40:23 2013 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 07:40:23 +0200 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 11:10 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > I found a Mac Performa 6400/200VEE at the dump today, but no keyboard / > rodent / display. > > ... > > 1) Is it possible to wire the 15-pin monitor connector up to a PC's VGA > monitor? Or, > There used to adapters available that would let you connect VGA monitors to Macs. These normally (or often, at least) had DIP switches to let you select what size of monitor to emulate (in effect, setting the maximum resolution). From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 12 01:35:34 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 06:35:34 -0000 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7D1B93D3-9D9B-48C5-9B35-9EEBA79C3F06@gewt.net> On 12 Apr 2013, at 01:40, "Raymond Wiker" wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 11:10 PM, Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> I found a Mac Performa 6400/200VEE at the dump today, but no keyboard / >> rodent / display. >> >> ... >> >> 1) Is it possible to wire the 15-pin monitor connector up to a PC's VGA >> monitor? Or, >> > > There used to adapters available that would let you connect VGA monitors to > Macs. These normally (or often, at least) had DIP switches to let you > select what size of monitor to emulate (in effect, setting the maximum > resolution). If you need a basic one, these guys have several hundred. http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/25311 From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 12 01:35:34 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 06:35:34 -0000 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7D1B93D3-9D9B-48C5-9B35-9EEBA79C3F06@gewt.net> On 12 Apr 2013, at 01:40, "Raymond Wiker" wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 11:10 PM, Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> I found a Mac Performa 6400/200VEE at the dump today, but no keyboard / >> rodent / display. >> >> ... >> >> 1) Is it possible to wire the 15-pin monitor connector up to a PC's VGA >> monitor? Or, >> > > There used to adapters available that would let you connect VGA monitors to > Macs. These normally (or often, at least) had DIP switches to let you > select what size of monitor to emulate (in effect, setting the maximum > resolution). If you need a basic one, these guys have several hundred. http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/25311 From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Apr 12 01:57:46 2013 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:57:46 +0200 Subject: New Flip Chip PCBs In-Reply-To: <516701C1.8060205@jwsss.com> References: <80E99E3B1C444E1A93277E077240765C@vl420mt> <516701C1.8060205@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20130412065746.GB27637@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 11:32:33AM -0700, Jim Stephens wrote: > Someone suggested or built a straight 8 out of "mini" flip chips with > surface mounted components. That would be me :) While I applaud the effort to build a functioning replica. That is way to much work for me. Doing a "modern" version with small SMT components would allow for more freedom and it would be fun to see how small and how power efficient it could be made. It definitely can be done: http://blog.makezine.com/2006/09/22/homemade-mt15-computer/ Unfortunately, Dieters original page is gone :( Anyone have a copy? > Lots of work, but it would be better in some ways than doing an > original form factor 8. There are Pros to that too, but obtaining > supplies / parts are less in your control if you go with an actual 8 > and try to match the original (using mixture of old and new parts) > and also presents some problems too (wire wrap backplane would be > fun). Spot on. At the moment I'm at the stage where I probably don't realize the amount of work that needs to be done, which is a good thing :) Cheers, Pontus. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 12 02:07:17 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:07:17 -0700 Subject: PDP 8 components file for spice In-Reply-To: <86F6704C-9635-44D7-B69E-3743CBE64C49@gmail.com> References: <51677046.4030901@jwsss.com> <86F6704C-9635-44D7-B69E-3743CBE64C49@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5167B2A5.7070209@jwsss.com> On 4/11/2013 7:57 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 11, 2013, at 22:24, Jim Stephens wrote: > >> The discussion thread about the flip chips had a discussion about a spice model. >> >> there is a file missing and I wonder if anyone knows where it might be found >> >> thanks >> JIm >> >> .INCLUDE ../PDP8/PDP8_COMPONENTS.cir > That could be anything. Is this an official model, or just > a model someone came up with? If it's the latter, there's a > good probability that it's just a conglomeration of parts > definitions that someone copy and pasted together to > make a library. > > > - Dave it might be what the fellow that posted it there pasted up, but posted here because i'm already signed up, and figured there were more PDP experts here and if it was from some know project some had done it would be recognized. i'll sign up there and see if the original poster has it. He modeled what he called an S151, octal to binary decoder board and it needs this to make what spice needs. Looks like a good start at what i was taking about in my other thread, making up one with modern parts. AN accurate model in this form would allow subbing in newer specs. thanks JIm From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 02:16:58 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:16:58 +0100 Subject: New Flip Chip PCBs In-Reply-To: <20130412051538.GA5410@dbit.dbit.com> References: <80E99E3B1C444E1A93277E077240765C@vl420mt> <516701C1.8060205@jwsss.com> <20130411193417.GA30070@dbit.dbit.com> <51673A69.20308@jwsss.com> <20130412051538.GA5410@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <5167B4EA.80706@gmail.com> >> Otherwise I'd look him up and try to get his dies. The dies cost, >> the runs and material don't. Helped that he knew some tool and die >> makers who owed him to get into the business in the first place. > I've never held any 3D-printed output in my own hands and the pictures I've > seen vary from "suspiciously perfect" to "looks like shredded wheat", so I > don't know if it's dumb to ask if 3D-printed flip-chip handles could handle > the violence of doing their job? Same question about DEC-style edge connectors > and/or obsolete Mate-N-Loks (either way the contacts aren't much of a problem > to dig up but the shells are long gone). I have held 3-d printed objects in my hand and I am pretty sure 3-D printed card handles would work just fine. You probably wouldn't get the colour match though. The real issue with 3-D handles is that the process is slow, so to make enough handles for a PDP8 could take around a day of solid time. The same for Edge connectors. So for making the odd replacement its fine. For a rack full its probably a no-no. > Otherwise, what really goes into making a die? I've got an el cheapo Sieg X2 > mini-mill and lots of free time ... and there are lots of plastics companies > here in western Mass ... yeah another dumb question. > > John Wilson > D Bit From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Apr 12 02:17:35 2013 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:17:35 +0200 Subject: New Flip Chip PCBs In-Reply-To: <20130412065746.GB27637@Update.UU.SE> References: <80E99E3B1C444E1A93277E077240765C@vl420mt> <516701C1.8060205@jwsss.com> <20130412065746.GB27637@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20130412071735.GA29519@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 08:57:46AM +0200, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > It definitely can be done: > > http://blog.makezine.com/2006/09/22/homemade-mt15-computer/ > > Unfortunately, Dieters original page is gone :( Anyone have a copy? Oh, it had just moved: http://www.6502.org/users/dieter/mt15/mt15.htm /P From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 05:16:44 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 11:16:44 +0100 Subject: Designing a replacement Alps Plotter drive gear (was Re: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hmm there is at least one person on this list who makes gears :) http://gears.archivist.info/ Dave Caroline On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 11:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 4:20 PM, Tony Duell > wrote: > >> One of those 4-colour pritner/ploters using the Alps mechanism. > Everybody > >> >and his dog sold them at some poitn -- Tandy CGP115, Commodore 1520, > >> >there was an Atari oen, a Sharp one, theOric printer, etc. > > > > But that little Alps unit is somewhat odd, and IMHO deserves a place i na > > colleciton of hard copy peripherals. > > Mention of the Alps plotter reminds me that we've had various discussions > about all the plotter mechs with broken gears but we've never worked out > the details on fabricating replacement gears. I've learned a lot about > fabrication over the past couple of years, so I wanted to take another stab > at the discussion to fill in the parts I don't (yet) understand... > > So I was looking at this gear generator... > > http://woodgears.ca/gear_cutting/template.html > > ... thinking that you can't fabricate a good replacement until you > have the data on what you are replacing. I'd like to try to make > either a flat (DXF) design file or a 3D (STL) design file of a > gear replacement candidate. It's possible that with so few > leaves (teeth) and such a small size (1/8" / 3mm across the > face, 1/20" / 1.27mm shaft) that there will be fiddling for > undercut, etc., but I wanted to at least make *something* > that could be tried for good fit. > > So that web-based tool can make a bitmap image of a > gear given the right data, but my own 2D CAD skills aren't > honed enough to draft up a DXF of a gear. Is there anyone > on the list here who is good with 2D CAD and has time > to make an image of a gear? I'm fine with turning that into > 3D and seeing how things would all turn out. I still have > several broken plotters and would like to get them working > again. > > Cheers, > > -ethan > From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 07:10:45 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:10:45 -0400 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <29E7CB93-3DC0-4B10-8DC4-C48FC236ADAD@gmail.com> On Apr 12, 2013, at 1:40, Raymond Wiker wrote: >> I found a Mac Performa 6400/200VEE at the dump today, but no keyboard / >> rodent / display. >> >> ... >> >> 1) Is it possible to wire the 15-pin monitor connector up to a PC's VGA >> monitor? Or, > > There used to adapters available that would let you connect VGA monitors to > Macs. These normally (or often, at least) had DIP switches to let you > select what size of monitor to emulate (in effect, setting the maximum > resolution). Again, Macs of that vintage dealt with the DDC codes in the VGA monitors just fine; if you have an adaptor that connects them straight through, you'll be good. There are lots of cheap ones that should do it, but I know that at least the Griffin MacPnP adaptor (one of the ones with DIP switches) had a setting to pass them through. - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 12 07:18:53 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 06:18:53 -0600 Subject: New Flip Chip PCBs In-Reply-To: <20130412065746.GB27637@Update.UU.SE> References: <80E99E3B1C444E1A93277E077240765C@vl420mt> <516701C1.8060205@jwsss.com> <20130412065746.GB27637@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5167FBAD.9050500@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/12/2013 12:57 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 11:32:33AM -0700, Jim Stephens wrote: >> Someone suggested or built a straight 8 out of "mini" flip chips with >> surface mounted components. > > That would be me :) While I applaud the effort to build a functioning > replica. That is way to much work for me. Doing a "modern" version with > small SMT components would allow for more freedom and it would be fun to > see how small and how power efficient it could be made. > > It definitely can be done: > > http://blog.makezine.com/2006/09/22/homemade-mt15-computer/ > > Unfortunately, Dieters original page is gone :( Anyone have a copy? > Wayback machine gives only until 2007. http://www.6502.org/users/dieter/index.htm >> Lots of work, but it would be better in some ways than doing an >> original form factor 8. There are Pros to that too, but obtaining >> supplies / parts are less in your control if you go with an actual 8 >> and try to match the original (using mixture of old and new parts) >> and also presents some problems too (wire wrap backplane would be >> fun). > > Spot on. > > At the moment I'm at the stage where I probably don't realize the amount > of work that needs to be done, which is a good thing :) > > Cheers, > Pontus. > From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Apr 12 07:22:43 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 12:22:43 +0000 Subject: PDP 8 components file for spice Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7435C77A@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> At the flip chip level it would include definitions for DEC3639B (aka 2N3639), D662 (aka 1N645) and D664 (aka 1N3606). Pretty standard stuff to read the datasheets and make SPICE models. A real design (or redesign) would pay extensive attention to margining just like the original designers did. SPICE can help verify to an extent, but all the details you actually need for design of RTL/DTL/flip-flop are in the 60's TI transistor design books. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 07:47:54 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:47:54 +0100 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12 April 2013 06:36, Raymond Wiker wrote: > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I suspect you'll know this, but which 1980s (8 bit) microcomptuer had >> 4-bit wide RAM at the hardware level? (The hardware did 2 memory cycles >> to make up an 8 bit byte ot give to the processor). > > Acorn Electron? Not that I am aware of... I thought that apart from external interfaces of various forms (including sideways RAM and so on), the principle hardware difference of the Electron from the Beeb was that it didn't have the Mullard teletext chip & so couldn't do Mode 7 - which sadly was a very popular screen mode, as it took very little RAM, something the Model B was notoriously short of. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Apr 12 07:49:56 2013 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:49:56 -0400 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130412124956.GA22671@hugin2.pdp8online.com> > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 8:52 AM, John Foust wrote: > > > I'd love to find the original data behind the Mona Lisa that > > was produced by CDC that was exhibited at VCF 2.0. > > > > > > http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/images/monaCHC.jpg > > I have a monalisa in these ascii art files. Its a two printout wide overstrike. No idea if it is the same one. http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/ascii_art/ From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Apr 12 08:05:48 2013 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:05:48 -0400 Subject: What is the correct material to use.. In-Reply-To: <51670FD0.4080604@sydex.com> References: <51670FD0.4080604@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130412130548.GA24173@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:32:32PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I use pure silicone lube or a dry moly lube such as Drislide: > > http://www.drislide.com/ > > to keep the dirt accumulation down. > I've tried the Teflon and silicon sprays before for random things I wanted a try lube for with mixed results. Do you think this stuff works better? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Apr 12 08:15:30 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <20130412124956.GA22671@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20130412124956.GA22671@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Apr 2013, David Gesswein wrote: >> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 8:52 AM, John Foust wrote: >> >>> I'd love to find the original data behind the Mona Lisa that >>> was produced by CDC that was exhibited at VCF 2.0. >>> >>> >>> http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/images/monaCHC.jpg >>> > I have a monalisa in these ascii art files. Its a two printout wide overstrike. > No idea if it is the same one. > > http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/ascii_art/ Dave, the Mona Lisa on your site isn't the same as the "Mona by the Numbers" version. Here's the one I printed from your file: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ASCII/Mona.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 08:24:12 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:24:12 -0400 Subject: PDP 8 components file for spice In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7435C77A@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7435C77A@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <0A5F9D42-6986-42C0-A14B-855419D3ECE1@gmail.com> On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:22 AM, "Shoppa, Tim" wrote: > At the flip chip level it would include definitions for DEC3639B (aka 2N3639), D662 (aka 1N645) and D664 (aka 1N3606). Pretty standard stuff to read the datasheets and make SPICE models. > > A real design (or redesign) would pay extensive attention to margining just like the original designers did. SPICE can help verify to an extent, but all the details you actually need for design of RTL/DTL/flip-flop are in the 60's TI transistor design books. Yeah, I can't stress enough that SPICE is NOT A DESIGN TOOL. It is a verification tool. People coming out of college in my generation fail to understand that because even a cheap PC runs complex SPICE simulations in a fraction of the time that the original machines did... that, and they're lazy. The late, great Bob Pease was fond of pointing out that both SPICE and spreadsheets are great at giving you the answer you want, not the answer you need (the right one). - Dave From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 08:58:31 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:58:31 +0100 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51681307.40609@gmail.com> On 12/04/2013 13:47, Liam Proven wrote: > On 12 April 2013 06:36, Raymond Wiker wrote: >> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> I suspect you'll know this, but which 1980s (8 bit) microcomptuer had >>> 4-bit wide RAM at the hardware level? (The hardware did 2 memory cycles >>> to make up an 8 bit byte ot give to the processor). The only odd machine I can think of was the Sinclair QL and ICL OPD which were 68008 CPUs, so 16 bit CPUs and 8-Bit busses.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_QL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Per_Desk >> Acorn Electron? > Not that I am aware of... I thought that apart from external > interfaces of various forms (including sideways RAM and so on), the > principle hardware difference of the Electron from the Beeb was that > it didn't have the Mullard teletext chip & so couldn't do Mode 7 - > which sadly was a very popular screen mode, as it took very little > RAM, something the Model B was notoriously short of. > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 12 08:59:26 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 06:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Designing a replacement Alps Plotter drive gear (was Re: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I do not. I was contemplating trying to laser-cut some out of Delrin sheet, > something I did not have access to the last time this conversation made > its rounds. As before, FDM printers do not have the resolution for such > a tiny part, and other technologies (sintered powder or UV-cured resin) > are likely to be too brittle, especially with such fine features. > Ethan, you might try talking to Shapeways or Ponoko and having the gear printed out of stainless steel. A very small gear shouldn't cost that much and may last longer than a delrin part. There's a very nice gear program here: http://woodgears.ca/gear/index.html I own a copy and it produces excellent DXF files suitable for laser cutting. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 12 09:09:28 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:09:28 -0400 Subject: PDP 8 components file for spice In-Reply-To: <0A5F9D42-6986-42C0-A14B-855419D3ECE1@gmail.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7435C77A@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0A5F9D42-6986-42C0-A14B-855419D3ECE1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51681598.1010800@neurotica.com> On 04/12/2013 09:24 AM, David Riley wrote: > Yeah, I can't stress enough that SPICE is NOT A DESIGN TOOL. > It is a verification tool. People coming out of college in > my generation fail to understand that because even a cheap > PC runs complex SPICE simulations in a fraction of the time > that the original machines did... that, and they're lazy. > > The late, great Bob Pease was fond of pointing out that both > SPICE and spreadsheets are great at giving you the answer > you want, not the answer you need (the right one). And indeed, famously threw a computer off the roof of the parking garage, stating that he then knew that THAT computer would never lie to him again. I'm not certain that this was due to SPICE, but I'd bet it was, given his overall feelings toward it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 09:34:23 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 18:34:23 +0400 Subject: Designing a replacement Alps Plotter drive gear (was Re: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 5:59 PM, geneb wrote: > Ethan, you might try talking to Shapeways or Ponoko and having the gear > printed out of stainless steel. A very small gear shouldn't cost that much > and may last longer than a delrin part. I've thought about that, but, if you haven't seen one of these Alps gears, there is very little material at the bottom of the "teeth", which is why the gears all split - weak spot combined with either mechanical or thermal stress. I don't have measurements to quote, but it's only a few hundred microns of material at most. I'm not sure what the surface smoothness is of Shapeways printed SS, but this gear is about the size of a match head with something like a dozen teeth (think back to the old "slot cars" and the grape-sized DC motors and the brass gear on them - it's about that size). It's going to mate with a plastic gear that's smaller than a dime. > There's a very nice gear program here: http://woodgears.ca/gear/index.html > I own a copy and it produces excellent DXF files suitable for laser cutting. That's the same website that I linked to at the start of this thread. -ethan From bobvines00 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 09:37:57 2013 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:37:57 -0400 Subject: Designing a replacement Alps Plotter drive gear Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:29:30 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Mention of the Alps plotter reminds me that we've had various discussions >>> about all the plotter mechs with broken gears but we've never worked out >>> the details... > >> I may be able to draw up a gear like this, but like the "gear >> generator," I'd have to have the correct gear data to know what to >> draw. > > Understandable. If I had more numbers up front, I would have given them. > >> What specs should I try to draw a gear to? I have access to both 2D & >> 3D drafting/modeling software (AutoCAD & SolidWorks). >> Do you intend to use a 3D printer to try to manufacture the gear? > > I do not. I was contemplating trying to laser-cut some out of Delrin sheet, > something I did not have access to the last time this conversation made > its rounds. As before, FDM printers do not have the resolution for such > a tiny part, and other technologies (sintered powder or UV-cured resin) > are likely to be too brittle, especially with such fine features. > I didn't really think so (for the same reasons), but I haven't kept up-to-date with today's additive manufacturing capabilities. >> I suppose these gears are spur gears with involute gear teeth. > > As far as I know that is true. > >> What is the pressure angle? > > I do not know. > >> What is the total number of teeth? >> What is the pitch diameter? > > I do not know without digging out a printer to check. I used to have > 4MP close-up pictures (taken with my gear in 2003 back when > Electronic Goldmine was surplusing the bare Alps printer mechs > for a few dollars) but I don't know exactly where those photos > are at the moment. My best approach right now would be to > drop one on a high-res flatbed scanner (1200 dpi) to get a > reasonable "to scale" picture, but I don't have a gear in front > of me at the moment (I do have them in town). > If you find the photos or make the scans, please send them. If possible, scan the gear next to something with a known scale such as a 6-inch machinist's scale or equal. >> You said the face width is 1/8-inch and the shaft hole fits a 1.27mm >> diameter shaft. > > That's what I've scraped from previous conversations about this > gear. I now own a micrometer so with a gear in hand, I have > a chance of confirming that to better accuracy. > >> Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear) has all this info and >> more -- I'm pretty sure that you are interested in only spur gears >> right now, so you can skim over the other gear-type information on >> that page. > > *nods* > >> Knowing the gear specs may even allow someone to go to the "small >> gear" catalogs and maybe even be able to select an "off-the-shelf" >> gear for each needed gear. It's possible. > > I think we (the cctalk community at the time) looked into that and nobody > had such tiny gears with so few large teeth in their catalog. Sounds like a "non-standard" gear. I can see why you (cctalk) couldn't find one in a catalog. > There were > calls to remove a gear and make castings (most gears are already broken > making that difficult) or using a lathe to make a fresh brass gear, etc. > Someone apparently did take a stab at a homemade brass gear but > declared it too expensive to warrant starting up a small run. Perhaps > hobby CNC has evolved to the point now where one could do a gear > with less labor and make an individually cut gear easily enough to > justify selling it for around $5. Or not. The hobby CNC world seems to have drastically increased in popularity in the last few years. A lot of the (mostly) guys are retired now and *may* be willing to make a small run for a reasonable cost just for the challenge. We'd still have to be able to give them full specs so they can program their machines. I recommend we wait on approaching the hobby CNC community until the gear specs can be determined and you have a go at the prototype with the laser. > > If I have a DXF or EPS of the face of the gear, I can see if the laser > cutter can make an approximation out of Delrin for nearly free (I just > spend a few minutes when I'm already working on a run and as long > as I don't work past the quarter-hour billing tick on the tool, the time > is already paid for by the other job). I'm not positive that this will > work, but the cost is so low that it's worth a stab. Just need the > silhouette to scale and I'm good to go. > > -ethan Go ahead and measure what you can and send me the dimensions & photos/scans. I'll see what I can put into DXF or EPS format for you. Bob From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 12 09:35:42 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:35:42 -0500 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: <201304111355.r3BDt1lF053674@mx1.ezwind.net> <201304111915.r3BJFm8H090633@mx1.ezwind.net> <516713AF.9090403@sydex.com> <201304112112.r3BLCHRB003630@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201304121441.r3CEfXC3014286@mx1.ezwind.net> At 06:06 PM 4/11/2013, Mike Loewen wrote: > Internet sources state that the "Mona by the Numbers" image was done on a plotter. There is some info and a few links at the bottom of this page: >http://rostenbach.com/mona/mona.htm Yes, that's the one. I hadn't seen digitalmonalisa.com before. It is owned by a Andrew Patros. Does anyone recognize his name and know why he made it? At first I thought he was selling prints. It says "Mona by the Numbers" was reproduced on a "diazo printing machine." In the PDF on the site, it also says "Peterson used his EYE [a flying spot scanner] to scan a 35mm slide of the Mona Lisa, and then, using a specially designed character set, played the scan back onto a 30 inch Cal Comp plotter. The 30 inch monochrome playback sparked a mini collecting frenzy all over the country." The Rostenbach site says the original digitized material was at 12 bits of gray, but that he worked with an 8 bit version. Nelson's "Computer Lib" says each spot was 100 levels, which makes me wonder if he wasn't misconstruing "percents" as levels. So as I understand it, diazo was a copying technology that made copies of the original plotter print. Does that account for the faded orange color of the surviving prints? http://www.vintchip.com/DOCUMENTS/monanumbers/mona.html has a nice closeup of the bottom of an original. That site is kept by a Greg Barber. I'd love to get an original. Does anyone recall them ever coming up for sale? Barring that, I'm tempted to recreate it in Illustrator so vector reproductions could be made. - John From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 12 09:52:10 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 07:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Designing a replacement Alps Plotter drive gear (was Re: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Apr 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 5:59 PM, geneb wrote: >> Ethan, you might try talking to Shapeways or Ponoko and having the gear >> printed out of stainless steel. A very small gear shouldn't cost that much >> and may last longer than a delrin part. > > I've thought about that, but, if you haven't seen one of these Alps gears, > there is very little material at the bottom of the "teeth", which is why the > gears all split - weak spot combined with either mechanical or thermal > stress. I don't have measurements to quote, but it's only a few hundred > microns of material at most. > > I'm not sure what the surface smoothness is of Shapeways printed SS, > but this gear is about the size of a match head with something like > a dozen teeth (think back to the old "slot cars" and the grape-sized DC > motors and the brass gear on them - it's about that size). It's going > to mate with a plastic gear that's smaller than a dime. > Well you might want to replace the tiny pinion gear with a larger one and reduce the size of the gear it mates to. As long as you've got the space and can keep the ratio the same, you should be fine. >> There's a very nice gear program here: http://woodgears.ca/gear/index.html >> I own a copy and it produces excellent DXF files suitable for laser cutting. > > That's the same website that I linked to at the start of this thread. Ah, didn't see that. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 12 09:50:58 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:50:58 -0500 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <7.1.0.9.0.20130412085445.06037a18@threedee.com> References: <201304111355.r3BDt1lF053674@mx1.ezwind.net> <201304111915.r3BJFm8H090633@mx1.ezwind.net> <516713AF.9090403@sydex.com> <201304112112.r3BLCHRB003630@mx1.ezwind.net> <7.1.0.9.0.20130412085445.06037a18@threedee.com> Message-ID: <201304121453.r3CEro51015621@mx1.ezwind.net> At 09:35 AM 4/12/2013, John Foust wrote: >The Rostenbach site says the original digitized material was at >12 bits of gray, but that he worked with an 8 bit version. I'm sorry - Rostenbach says the original was 9 bits, and that he had a tape with those nine bits stored in twelve bits. - John From sales at elecplus.com Fri Apr 12 09:53:35 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:53:35 -0500 Subject: Houston Computer Museum Message-ID: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> http://www.houstoncomputermuseum.org/index.html This one is kind of strange, worded oddly for American company, no address or phone number. Is anyone familiar with this museum? Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6237 - Release Date: 04/10/13 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 12 10:26:39 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 11:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP 8 components file for spice In-Reply-To: <0A5F9D42-6986-42C0-A14B-855419D3ECE1@gmail.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7435C77A@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0A5F9D42-6986-42C0-A14B-855419D3ECE1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201304121526.LAA18513@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The late, great Bob Pease was fond of pointing out that both SPICE > and spreadsheets are great at giving you the answer you want, not the > answer you need (the right one). There's a bit of doggerel which I saw presented as coming from a graffito in a terminal room (back when there _were_ terminal rooms, of course): I really hate this damn machine I wish that they would sell it It never does quite what I want But only what I tell it Computers are really good at answering the question you asked, not the question you meant to ask - or the question you thought you asked - or the question you actually need the answer to.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 12 10:41:26 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:41:26 -0500 Subject: Houston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> References: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> Message-ID: <201304121551.r3CFpnbg022352@mx1.ezwind.net> At 09:53 AM 4/12/2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >http://www.houstoncomputermuseum.org/index.html >This one is kind of strange, worded oddly for American company, no address >or phone number. Is anyone familiar with this museum? There are other Houstons, but this one does say it's in Texas. The domain owner seems connected to Turkey. The web hosting is in Leeds, England. - John From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 12 11:15:23 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:15:23 -0700 Subject: Houston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> References: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> Message-ID: <5168331B.4050807@bitsavers.org> On 4/12/13 7:53 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > http://www.houstoncomputermuseum.org/index.html > > > > This one is kind of strange, worded oddly for American company, no address > or phone number. Is anyone familiar with this museum? > John Keys had a collection by that name. He posted here as "thecman" but the last post was over three years ago. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 11:14:13 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 17:14:13 +0100 Subject: Houston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> References: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> Message-ID: <516832D5.2050409@gmail.com> On 12/04/2013 15:53, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > http://www.houstoncomputermuseum.org/index.html > > > > This one is kind of strange, worded oddly for American company, no address > or phone number. Is anyone familiar with this museum? > > > > Cindy Croxton I found this as well... http://www.hlctm.org/ > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6237 - Release Date: 04/10/13 > -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 12 11:16:14 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:16:14 -0700 Subject: What is the correct material to use.. In-Reply-To: <20130412130548.GA24173@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <51670FD0.4080604@sydex.com> <20130412130548.GA24173@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <5168334E.9050300@sydex.com> On 04/12/2013 06:05 AM, David Gesswein wrote: > I've tried the Teflon and silicon sprays before for random things I > wanted a try lube for with mixed results. Do you think this stuff works > better? "Better" depends on a lot of things. I find that Dri-slide hangs on better and lasts longer than either the teflon or silicone sprays, but that it's mot as neat--moly disulfide is slippery like graphite, and almost as messy. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 12 11:30:50 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 11:30:50 -0500 Subject: Houston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <5168331B.4050807@bitsavers.org> References: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> <5168331B.4050807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201304121631.r3CGV6Op026658@mx1.ezwind.net> At 11:15 AM 4/12/2013, Al Kossow wrote: >John Keys had a collection by that name. He posted here as "thecman" but the >last post was over three years ago. One address associated with him is in a residential neighborhood, the other for the 501c3 is at this business "park" http://goo.gl/maps/Rp0l4 . There's another web for him, too: http://www.hlctm.org/index.htm - John From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 11:49:57 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 16:49:57 +0000 Subject: Houston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> References: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> Message-ID: <2030112269-1365785396-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1263513850-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Yes its John Keys' museum. He's been at the vintage computer festival southwest the last few years with some of his pretty vast collection. I haven't been to the actual museum yet. It may be a bit vague since its primarily just him and his wife handling the operation. -----Original Message----- From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:53:35 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Houston Computer Museum http://www.houstoncomputermuseum.org/index.html This one is kind of strange, worded oddly for American company, no address or phone number. Is anyone familiar with this museum? Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6237 - Release Date: 04/10/13 From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Apr 12 12:18:44 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:18:44 -0400 Subject: PDP 8 components file for spice In-Reply-To: <51681598.1010800@neurotica.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7435C77A@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0A5F9D42-6986-42C0-A14B-855419D3ECE1@gmail.com> <51681598.1010800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516841F4.4050809@verizon.net> On 04/12/2013 10:09 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/12/2013 09:24 AM, David Riley wrote: >> Yeah, I can't stress enough that SPICE is NOT A DESIGN TOOL. >> It is a verification tool. People coming out of college in >> my generation fail to understand that because even a cheap >> PC runs complex SPICE simulations in a fraction of the time >> that the original machines did... that, and they're lazy. >> >> The late, great Bob Pease was fond of pointing out that both >> SPICE and spreadsheets are great at giving you the answer >> you want, not the answer you need (the right one). > And indeed, famously threw a computer off the roof of the parking garage, > stating that he then knew that THAT computer would never lie to him again. > I'm not certain that this was due to SPICE, but I'd bet it was, given his > overall feelings toward it. > > -Dave > I use spice, XFTD, NEC2, and on and on... They are all nice tools if you keep one thing in mind. GIGO For those that have forgotten of never heard that "Garbage In produces Garbage Out". To avoid that don't put garbage in. What is garbage? Simulations with far to many unknown and parasitic items unaccounted for. If one takes the time and efffort to correlate and qualify the results then the answers should be valid and often are. That means if you use a mbt2222 transistor in spice the first task is that spice realization a valid one! Like anything computer simulation and test can be good or bad and as a designer you can control that. Allison From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 12:26:47 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:26:47 -0400 Subject: PDP 8 components file for spice In-Reply-To: <516841F4.4050809@verizon.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7435C77A@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <0A5F9D42-6986-42C0-A14B-855419D3ECE1@gmail.com> <51681598.1010800@neurotica.com> <516841F4.4050809@verizon.net> Message-ID: <855489DD-8180-4632-A454-473FE132BD98@gmail.com> On Apr 12, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Allison wrote: > I use spice, XFTD, NEC2, and on and on... > They are all nice tools if you keep one thing in mind. > > GIGO > > For those that have forgotten of never heard that > "Garbage In produces Garbage Out". To avoid that > don't put garbage in. What is garbage? Simulations > with far to many unknown and parasitic items > unaccounted for. > > If one takes the time and efffort to correlate and qualify the > results then the answers should be valid and often are. > That means if you use a mbt2222 transistor in spice > the first task is that spice realization a valid one! > > Like anything computer simulation and test can be > good or bad and as a designer you can control that. Absolutely. All I'm saying is that I work with (or rather clean up after) a lot of people who use simulators, whether SPICE or a logic simulator or whatever, as a DESIGN tool. They end up with fragile code that looks like garbage because e.g. they'll iteratively tweak their design by simulating it and throwing in pipeline delays until it all "works", at least under the specific conditions of the sim. So yes, like any good tool, you have to be using it the right way. Just because you CAN use a circular saw in place of a pencil or a hammer doesn't mean you SHOULD. It's important to do the math BEFOREHAND, ideally on paper or paper equivalent, and simulate AFTERWARD. That is, sadly, a lesson I'm still occasionally relearning. - Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 12 12:55:00 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:55:00 -0700 Subject: ISO Dynabyte CP/M 2.2 Message-ID: <51684A74.80207@bitsavers.org> I picked up a 5505 a while ago, and as I've been going through the docs from San Diego there were a few Dynabyte manuals, which I'm currently uploading to bitsavers. The one thing I haven't found is any media. These seem to be difficult to find, and the 5" ones are going to be tough to image since they are 100tpi. Anyone have any Dynabyte media left? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 13:28:15 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:28:15 -0500 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> On 04/11/2013 05:33 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 11, 2013, at 17:10, Jules Richardson > wrote: > >> I found a Mac Performa 6400/200VEE at the dump today, but no keyboard >> / rodent / display. > > Is that the smooth-cornered minitower? Those things were nightmarish to > take apart, but otherwise ok. Yes, that's the one - and it is indeed a complete nightmare to take apart. Perhaps it was better when new and the plastics have gone more rigid with age. >> I'll try some vinegar and see how it goes Well, it cleaned up well enough, at least visually - but there are no signs of life when the power switch is hit (no PSU fan activity, nothing). I'll see if I can work out the PSU wiring, as I'm not sure if it needs the system board present to function, and it'd be nice to verify that the PSU is working before going any further. The battery is rated at 4.5V, by the way, not the 3.6V common to a lot of machines. I assume it's non-rechargeable; can anyone confirm that? (If it's not then I can easily supply power from 3 AA's just for testing purposes) >> 1) Is it possible to wire the 15-pin monitor connector up to a PC's >> VGA monitor? Or, > > Yes. Adaptors aren't hard to come by, and that generation of Mac should > support DDC codes from modern VGA monitors. Are they just a straight-through wiring job (in which case does anyone know the DA15 pinout?) or are they SoG as someone mentioned? I don't think I've got anything here that'll accept SoG, so that makes things a little more complex (and there'd perhaps be no gain in building an adapter vs. buying one) > The absolute best adaptor to > use, if you can find it, is the Griffin MacPnP adaptor, which has a bank > of DIP switches to set the monitor sense codes (necessary for older, > more finicky Macs) and/or pass the DDC lines through. I have a number of > Mac/VGA adaptors, some of which just pass the sense lines through > verbatim and some of which have the sense code hard wired to what the > manufacturer thought was right (for example, a 1024x768 VGA monitor came > with an adaptor that was hard-wired to declare that it only supported > 640x480 and 832x624). Hmm, I'd assume that in the absence of any DDC info it'll default to some crappy resolution rather than outputting nothing, surely? > If you need a mouse, I have a few spares of which I could send one. Thanks - I'll keep that in mind. Funny how even quite-common stuff such as this seems to have all but disappeared! cheers Jules From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Apr 12 14:00:44 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:00:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Tantalum capacitors (was: LCIII Recap - Apple design fault -47uF reversed!) In-Reply-To: <46DBF3CB-9A82-4C15-B514-2D26DA4B5726@uniwho.com> References: <46DBF3CB-9A82-4C15-B514-2D26DA4B5726@uniwho.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 2013, Charles Phillips wrote: > Hey can anyone shed some light on this topic? > > LCIII Recap - Apple design fault -47uF reversed! > > http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=20936 Uhm... Tantalums as primary DC filters? Seriously? My experience with tantalum capacitors is that they really, /really/ don't like ripple, and when used as a primary filter on a high current DC bus, over time will tend to short (after developing a tiny hole in oxide insulator layer), then go into thermal runaway and explode/burn (often damaging the PC board in the process). Even the product engineers at Kemet that I worked with in the past recommended against using tantalum capacitors in this type of application. Anyone else have similar "war stories" involving tantalum capacitors? From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 12 14:02:09 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 12:02:09 -0700 Subject: Houston Computer Museum (fwd) In-Reply-To: <5168572C.4040800@bitsavers.org> References: <5168572C.4040800@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51685A31.9020204@jwsss.com> On 4/12/2013 11:49 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > also offlist.. > > He's flaked on Jim Stephens, who was storing a bunch of SDS computer > equipment for him in Kansas City as well. > > That reminds me, I should ask to take them off of the list of groups > we forward unwanted donation offers to. I would put in a word on John. He came and got his stuff, at my request because I was possibly going to have to move out of space I was storing his and my stuff in. He is obviously one who is heavy on assets and very short on planning and sustainability. Just a hoarder like me probably with somewhat less in income, since I had to help him with a big Storage Tech pile he got to. He did flake in that we never got access to tapes we wished to digitize before they went down the rabbithole, and he is extremely hard to get in touch with from time to time. However I think he means well. Again my main problem was that I was in a situation where I stored someone elses stuff and if I got run out of the space didn't want to have to move things (about 50 sq ft and heavy) that I didn't own. I do have phone numbers from a year ago and if you persist you may be able to contact him. But I don't have evidence there is a real museum, but rather more likely a bunch of storage units. thanks Jim From evan at snarc.net Fri Apr 12 14:10:42 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 15:10:42 -0400 Subject: Houston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <2030112269-1365785396-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1263513850-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> <2030112269-1365785396-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1263513850-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <51685C32.1010400@snarc.net> > Yes its John Keys' museum. Nothing against John, but this is exactly what I ranted about in the recent re: Mulling a museum thread. Anybody can take their private collection, open a web site, and say, "Look, I have a museum." Umm, no, you don't. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 14:14:18 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 15:14:18 -0400 Subject: Tantalum capacitors (was: LCIII Recap - Apple design fault -47uF reversed!) In-Reply-To: References: <46DBF3CB-9A82-4C15-B514-2D26DA4B5726@uniwho.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 11 Apr 2013, Charles Phillips wrote: > >> Hey can anyone shed some light on this topic? >> >> LCIII Recap - Apple design fault -47uF reversed! >> >> http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=20936 I glanced at the topic... looks like it turned out to either be a silkscreen "error" or it was on the -5V line for the comms drivers (or was it confusing the "black line" on an electrolytic cap and assuming the polarity was the same for the marking on an SMT tantalum cap?) > Uhm... Tantalums as primary DC filters? Seriously? > > Anyone else have similar "war stories" > involving tantalum capacitors? c. 1984 I saw a COMBOARD returned from a customer because the tantalum cap that was acting as a ripple filter for the 74S409 DRAM controller had exploded while the board was installed in a crowded BA-11 box. It looked like someone shot the board with a .22. The damage included the board itself (replaced under warranty) and the boards on either side (not sure who paid for that but it was either my employer or perhaps the DEC Field Service contract - I'm sure the customer wasn't left holding the bag on that one). This was the only one I saw out of hundreds of boards shipped. We ran them 24/7 for years at a time and never saw one fail, but if it happens to you, it's quite the mess. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 14:24:45 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 15:24:45 -0400 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1663FDEB-7A74-4FD7-9C6F-A6C685376945@gmail.com> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:28 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/11/2013 05:33 PM, David Riley wrote: >> On Apr 11, 2013, at 17:10, Jules Richardson >> wrote: >> >>> I found a Mac Performa 6400/200VEE at the dump today, but no keyboard >>> / rodent / display. >> >> Is that the smooth-cornered minitower? Those things were nightmarish to >> take apart, but otherwise ok. > > Yes, that's the one - and it is indeed a complete nightmare to take apart. > Perhaps it was better when new and the plastics have gone more rigid with age. Nope. It was just a terrible design for the case. It was awful when it was brand new, too; I have some scars from them. The Alchemy motherboard itself wasn't total garbage, but I think the 6400/6500 cases were some of the worst that Apple ever designed, maybe after the PowerPC-era all-in-ones (the 5x00, G3 AIO, eMac, later iMac G3s). >>> I'll try some vinegar and see how it goes > > Well, it cleaned up well enough, at least visually - but there are no signs of life when the power switch is hit (no PSU fan activity, nothing). I'll see if I can work out the PSU wiring, as I'm not sure if it needs the system board present to function, and it'd be nice to verify that the PSU is working before going any further. Good luck; battery corrosion can be a big deal. I was lucky with my Quadra 700; the battery was located at the top of the motherboard and had dripped all the way down and eaten a leg and a pad off a surface-mount hex inverter. I'm lucky in that the affected leg was the power pin, which meant I could easily white-wire the Vcc from an adjacent chip; if it had been an actual signal pin, I might never have found where it went. The PSU is probably pretty similar to an ATX supply in that the motherboard pulls a pin high or low to soft-switch the supply on and off. I'm having trouble finding a pinout for the 6400's PSU, but try finding the +5V standby with a meter first. If that's not present when the thing is plugged in (no fans should be running), it might be toast. If you're able to find the power-on wire (often gray, but who knows), it's active-high (pull to +5V standby, not ground like ATX supplies). Try pulling it through a resistor first; you don't want to short anything out too hard if you have the wrong pin. 1K ought to do it, though you might need something like 100 ohms to pull the pin strongly enough. I don't know for sure. This is a page which details the connections from the Alchemy motherboard in the 5x00s, which I think was the same as the 6x00s in a different case. You could use that to figure out which PSU wire is which. The original is dead, so please pardon the long Internet Archive link. http://web.archive.org/web/20040609201611/http://www.icedevil.nildram.co.uk/pm5x00Pinout.htm > The battery is rated at 4.5V, by the way, not the 3.6V common to a lot of machines. I assume it's non-rechargeable; can anyone confirm that? (If it's not then I can easily supply power from 3 AA's just for testing purposes) I've definitely seen people use 3xAA holders as replacements for them. Most RTC/CMOS batteries (which is basically what the PRAM battery is) are non-rechargeable because you get about an order of magnitude more energy out of the non-rechargeable chemistry. I wouldn't expect this one to be rechargeable either, but I'm not 100% certain. >>> 1) Is it possible to wire the 15-pin monitor connector up to a PC's >>> VGA monitor? Or, >> >> Yes. Adaptors aren't hard to come by, and that generation of Mac should >> support DDC codes from modern VGA monitors. > > Are they just a straight-through wiring job (in which case does anyone know the DA15 pinout?) or are they SoG as someone mentioned? I don't think I've got anything here that'll accept SoG, so that makes things a little more complex (and there'd perhaps be no gain in building an adapter vs. buying one) Most Macs actually weren't SoG, to my knowledge. Some of the 68K ones were, and you could certainly get video cards that were (you needed them for a lot of third-party monitors that used 3xBNC or 1xBNC (for monochrome)). It's generally a straight-through adaptor that maps right on to VGA with no trouble. The pinout is pretty easy to find online. The last entry on this page (straight from Apple) details the adaptor pinout that came with the Apple Studio Display CRTs (Apple's last CRT monitors, which moved to the VGA DE15 plug but came with an adaptor for older machines). That's what you'll want to make if you're making one. http://support.apple.com/kb/TA44937?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US >> The absolute best adaptor to >> use, if you can find it, is the Griffin MacPnP adaptor, which has a bank >> of DIP switches to set the monitor sense codes (necessary for older, >> more finicky Macs) and/or pass the DDC lines through. I have a number of >> Mac/VGA adaptors, some of which just pass the sense lines through >> verbatim and some of which have the sense code hard wired to what the >> manufacturer thought was right (for example, a 1024x768 VGA monitor came >> with an adaptor that was hard-wired to declare that it only supported >> 640x480 and 832x624). > > Hmm, I'd assume that in the absence of any DDC info it'll default to some crappy resolution rather than outputting nothing, surely? Most machines will. Probably all PowerMacs will; they'll most likely default to 640x480, which actually wasn't all that crappy until about Mac OS 8 (and that was more the fault of application designers than anything else). It's obviously WAY too small for the modern web, but most browsers you run on that machine probably won't handle the modern web that well anyway (with the exception of Classilla, which uses the mobile layout, so screen size might be OK there). Some machines can be a pain about it; I know my Quadra 700 won't even initialize the display if it doesn't see some sense codes (the Apple ones, since it doesn't do DDC), but that's somewhat unusual. It's also a much older machine. >> If you need a mouse, I have a few spares of which I could send one. > > Thanks - I'll keep that in mind. Funny how even quite-common stuff such as this seems to have all but disappeared! It's actually pretty easy to find on eBay or Craigslist, but it's not as common as, say, PC mice and keyboards. Nor as cheap. I'm kicking myself for throwing out three Apple Design Keyboards about ten years ago; they weren't great keyboards, but I find myself short on any ADB keyboards these days and don't have the motivation to get them on eBay. If you're looking for a good one, find an Apple Extended Keyboard (or Apple Extended Keyboard 2). They're good keyboards with real keyswitches and nice tactile feedback (and not as loud as a Model M), and durable as hell. I'm actually using one on my 2011 iMac through a USB/ADB adaptor because it's so far above anything Apple sold since. Some of the keys are... reluctant by now, but the keyswitches are actually easy enough to open back up and "revitalize" by bending the leaf springs out a bit. - Dave From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 15:03:51 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 20:03:51 +0000 Subject: Houston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <51685C32.1010400@snarc.net> References: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> <2030112269-1365785396-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1263513850-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <51685C32.1010400@snarc.net> Message-ID: <685395169-1365797029-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1046257949-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> To the contrary here though. He does have a public museum/building with the majority on display. -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 15:10:42 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Houston Computer Museum > Yes its John Keys' museum. Nothing against John, but this is exactly what I ranted about in the recent re: Mulling a museum thread. Anybody can take their private collection, open a web site, and say, "Look, I have a museum." Umm, no, you don't. From xmechanic at landcomp.net Fri Apr 12 15:15:44 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:15:44 -0600 Subject: Houston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> References: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> Message-ID: <51686B70.7090909@landcomp.net> On 4/12/13 8:53 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > http://www.houstoncomputermuseum.org/index.html > > > > This one is kind of strange, worded oddly for American company, no address > or phone number. Is anyone familiar with this museum? > > > > Cindy Croxton > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6237 - Release Date: 04/10/13 > > > Weird... almost looks like one of the domain 'placeholder' pages. No idea if it's for real or not. -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From evan at snarc.net Fri Apr 12 15:18:57 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 16:18:57 -0400 Subject: Houston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <685395169-1365797029-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1046257949-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> <2030112269-1365785396-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1263513850-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <51685C32.1010400@snarc.net> <685395169-1365797029-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1046257949-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <51686C31.9020007@snarc.net> > To the contrary here though. He does have a public museum/building with the majority on display. Have you seen that first-hand? Last I heard, there were a couple of display cases in a store front. If I'm wrong, then that's a good thing (this time!) From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 12 15:38:35 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC serial Number identification Message-ID: <1365799115.45270.YahooMailNeo@web141401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Would like so help identifying the serial number on the VAX 11/780 I just acquired. The Model is 11780-FE not sure what the FE means. The serial is FX03307. I am assuming the FX would mean Foxboro MA ? 0 would be 1980. 33 would be august and 07 would be the 7th one made that year? Went with the logic tube manufacturers used to use. From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 15:39:24 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 20:39:24 +0000 Subject: Houston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <51686C31.9020007@snarc.net> References: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> <2030112269-1365785396-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1263513850-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <51685C32.1010400@snarc.net> <685395169-1365797029-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1046257949-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <51686C31.9020007@snarc.net> Message-ID: <1203984632-1365799163-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-945789026-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> I haven't seen it no, but from our conversations it sounded like it was within the last year or two that this building and the 4 digit/mo bills associated with it were obtained. I just wasn't going to go into those details for him but it definitely sounds like a large risk he took on. It could still be more a storage space look than museum though depending on how stuff is arranged. I can't recall if he registered it as a nonprofit or not but he has lucked out with a few well off investors donating to keep it up. -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 16:18:57 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Houston Computer Museum > To the contrary here though. He does have a public museum/building with the majority on display. Have you seen that first-hand? Last I heard, there were a couple of display cases in a store front. If I'm wrong, then that's a good thing (this time!) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 12 16:39:07 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 14:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <1663FDEB-7A74-4FD7-9C6F-A6C685376945@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> <1663FDEB-7A74-4FD7-9C6F-A6C685376945@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130412124527.X61412@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 12 Apr 2013, David Riley wrote: > The PSU is probably pretty similar to an ATX supply in that the > motherboard pulls a pin high or low to soft-switch the supply > on and off. I'm having trouble finding a pinout for the 6400's > PSU, but try finding the +5V standby with a meter first. If > that's not present when the thing is plugged in (no fans should > be running), it might be toast. No familiarity with that particular machine, but did you provide a LOAD for the power supply? Many supplies can not be tested without a load. A car headlight works pretty well. A dual filament bulb with one bad filament is fine for this, and worthless to anybody else. From david at hheng.plus.com Fri Apr 12 04:51:12 2013 From: david at hheng.plus.com (David Humphries) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:51:12 +0100 Subject: New Flip Chip PCBs References: <80E99E3B1C444E1A93277E077240765C@vl420mt> Message-ID: <002101ce3763$4466f090$1003a8c0@HHE8> I think thats the chap who wants to build a straight 8 " from the ground up", including the core, hes bought thousands of actaul cores !!, now thats going to be a projrct and a half DaveH ----- Original Message ----- From: "MikeS" To: Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 7:50 PM Subject: New Flip Chip PCBs >A couple of folks on the VCForum talking about making new flip chip boards: > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?36190-New-flip-chip-PCB-s > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5737 - Release Date: 04/10/13 > From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Apr 12 11:48:56 2013 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 09:48:56 -0700 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's Message-ID: I still have a S/360 load module card deck for the 6-foot "Moon" ASCII art picture. I saw it in my basement a few years ago. I have a gothic letters banner producer card deck too. I have Hercules running, so the module could be resurrected. Anyone have a card reader? I have been looking for a CR11 or CM11 for over 10 years now. Kevin Message: 8 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:49:56 -0400 From: David Gesswein To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's Message-ID: <20130412124956.GA22671 at hugin2.pdp8online.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 8:52 AM, John Foust wrote: > >> I'd love to find the original data behind the Mona Lisa that >> was produced by CDC that was exhibited at VCF 2.0. >> >> >> http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/images/monaCHC.jpg >> I have a monalisa in these ascii art files. Its a two printout wide overstrike. No idea if it is the same one. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 12 16:13:05 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 22:13:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: from "Raymond Wiker" at Apr 12, 13 07:36:57 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I suspect you'll know this, but which 1980s (8 bit) microcomptuer had > > 4-bit wide RAM at the hardware level? (The hardware did 2 memory cycles > > to make up an 8 bit byte ot give to the processor). > > > > Acorn Electron? > Correct. Or, for the pedants, that was the one I was thinking of (the RAM on that machine was as 64K*4 DRAM chip or module, it appeared ot the CPU as 32K*8). There may be other machiens that did a simialr thing, of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 12 16:20:33 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 22:20:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Apr 12, 13 01:47:54 pm Message-ID: > > On 12 April 2013 06:36, Raymond Wiker wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > >> I suspect you'll know this, but which 1980s (8 bit) microcomptuer had > >> 4-bit wide RAM at the hardware level? (The hardware did 2 memory cycles > >> to make up an 8 bit byte ot give to the processor). > > > > Acorn Electron? > > Not that I am aware of... I thought that apart from external > interfaces of various forms (including sideways RAM and so on), the > principle hardware difference of the Electron from the Beeb was that There were a few other differences that appeared to the programmer/user IIRC. I will have to dig out my Electron Advanced User Guide to check, though (yes, that book does exist, but it is a lot harder to find than the oen for the Beeb). The user/programemr would not notice the memroy arrnagement, though. Logic in the ULA does make the 64K*4 DRAM appear as a 32K*8 area of RAM to the processor. But the hardware is a either a 64K*4 DRAM chip (41464 or similar) or a little PCB with 4 off 64K*1 chips on it. > it didn't have the Mullard teletext chip & so couldn't do Mode 7 - > which sadly was a very popular screen mode, as it took very little > RAM, something the Model B was notoriously short of. > -tony From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 12 17:42:06 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 15:42:06 -0700 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51688DBE.6010202@jwsss.com> I have a serial Documation M1000 and am in Orange County, Ca Jim On 4/12/2013 9:48 AM, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > I still have a S/360 load module card deck for the 6-foot "Moon" ASCII art picture. I saw it in my basement a few years ago. I have a gothic letters banner producer card deck too. > > I have Hercules running, so the module could be resurrected. Anyone have a card reader? I have been looking for a CR11 or CM11 for over 10 years now. > > Kevin From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Apr 12 18:12:00 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:12:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config Message-ID: Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Please be aware that most (maybe now almost all) RD53 > drives have failed with the head stuck problem. (...) > I would agree to use an RD53 as a scratch drive for > temporary storage, but not for saving files after the > drive is powered down. Which conveniently also is an application for which their capacity is reasonable. One could however hope for the best and use one e.g. as a boot drive, provided I have the contents backed up elsewhere just in case it decides to croak. > I have a number of Micropolis ESDI and Hitachi ESDI > drives which seem to be quite reliable. > (...) since I doubt that using > the internal power supply from the BA123 is helpful. Hmm, as the enclosure supports no less than four full height 5,25" devices, shouldn't the PSU be able to power them as well, or is the 11/83 setup stretching the limits on its own already? > >3x 5MB 14" RL01, > >1x 10MB 14" RL02, > > VERY reasonable for a small RT-11 system And PERIOD at least. > but prone > to hardware problems (especially filters) in the long run. A thorough cleanup and check-out will of course be performed before power is applied. > >(2x 80MB 14" SMD) (I just have a lead on those yet) > > > The ESDI drives are more reliable and faster. ESDI controllers > were also less expensive and more available. Not a problem, I do have a (DILOG IIRC) QBUS SMD controller (but not a SCSI one yet). And I _want_ to run rackmount drives, not microcomputer stuff, with a rackmount system. Not to mention that the CMD Phoenix drives have one removable platter (16MB) in a cartridge, so unlimited offline storage (in case I can manage to get more of those landmines). allison wrote: > On 04/10/2013 02:25 AM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > > ok, then TU58 emulation is, as I had hoped, going to float the > > boat for me, at least until either more machines or media to > > be read crop up here. > The novelty weill wear off fast as a drive is only 256K, and > its serial line speed and hence sloowwwwwwww... Nevertheless it's a start; it's not like I'm running a production system. I can still upgrade once my patience has been exhausted. > >> Thats plenty of space for PDP-11 OSs. > > Unfortunately I have no sound way to (mechanically) > > _mount_ and power those tiny little 5,25" disks in > > the '11 rack, that's why they're staying in the BA123. > I got a rack shelf and gutted a few PCs for the disk cage. Perhaps not pretty, but a pragmatic solution anyway... I do even have a general purpose rackmount case and PSU for two full-height 5,25" devices after all. (I had not considered it as such, as it is currently occupied by a drive bay mountable SCSI RAID controller and I had originally not realized that they were separate parts.) So this is basically an option to use the RD53s with my RQDX3 on 11/23 as well. How about the STxxx (unshielded) ribbon cables going from one rack drawer to the other, won't those be a problem in terms of length/signal quality)? > >> Likely the bad one has the stuck head problem > >> (...) > > I'd not want to try my luck, I'll work on that one > > once I've got an aquarium type glove box set up. > Suit yourself. I've done them on the kitchen table. > I must ahve done at least 8 of them. > The only failures were not media related (controller > dies on write and blows the track servo). > > Keep in mind they have a filter and the spin-up is > to clear the platters and the dust that lands into > the filter. Good to know they're not that fragile, but every head crash is one too many in my book. They don't make 'em any more, after all. [large drives] > Anything I can lift with one hand is small. > > 1(2)x RD53 5,25" MFM > > 1x 300MB 5,25" ESDI, > Physical large drive: any that want a lift or > two people to install in the rack. > > 3x 5MB 14" RL01, > > 1x 10MB 14" RL02, > > (2x 80MB 14" SMD) (just a lead on those yet) > RL02 was far more reliable and more common. Despite the higher track density in an otherwise pretty much unchanged design? (I got the (common) user's guide with the drives.) What's the story about the "brush cycle" that was later on removed by an ECO anyway? At least one of my drives still has the brush arm installed. > > ?? BBU?? Unless you mean BBS7 (Io tends to use that). > > Battery backup. Feeding it from an alternate 5V source > > to keep RAM content intact when mains power is off. > > Oh, It's been a while, I never use it. No need. If I > need the data preserved I have it on disk and the system > on UPS. Nowadays, of course. Back then UPS usually meant a large noisy expensive MG set with a heavy flywheel accompanied by an air-started diesel genset in the basement (and you probably had chosen a MINIcomputer to avoid all that), so BBU was the next best thing to core to have, when power was not as reliable as your service needed to be. [heat issues] > > A hard "CPU dead" damage without any warning? > (...) > Mine ran usually for months at a time, if the building > AC hadn't failed the cpu baord would still be in there > (it is actually and repaired returned to my spares box). So out of interest, what component(s) actually got fried in the incident? [old-time networking] > PDP-11s were networked before NICs using DDCMP and sync > lines. (...) Of course Unix had UUCP via serial lines > and modems. > After NICS Ether pipe. RT11 does little with it and > its mostly useless for that RSTS and RSX in the later > versions were full fledged nodes (DECnet Phase III). So my idea of it was pretty much correct, by and large. >> (2x 80MB 14" SMD) (I just have a lead on those yet) >> >> > The ESDI drives are more reliable and faster. ESDI controllers > were also less expensive and more available. > [TK50 tape subsystem] > I just can't say enough nice things about TK50. > (set user/mode:sarcasm=off) > > But they were the common transfer media and big for its time. > that and I have a small bin full of Compact Tape I media with > stuff on it. Tk70 was the one to have. jkunz and I had a bunch of (negative) fun with CompacTapes last VCFe, when we tried reading some on a VAXstation IIRC. We had a bunch in which the binder had degraded; they started shedding oxide and/or sticking to the heads, sometimes in a way that even broke the tape. > There is also TLZ04 tape. DAT, usually regarded as a "Write once/read never" medium if I'm not mistaken? David Riley wrote: > If you manage to find a QBUS SCSI card (...) you can use a Zip drive > for removable storage (...) It's not exactly "classic", > but they are plentiful and cheap and fairly reliable if you stick > with the 100 MB versions. They're also BIG (in storage size) compared > to an RL02, and they're much better about being dropped. :-) Three problems: 1. no free QBUS SCSI cards (as opposed to MFM, ESDI, RL0x and SMD), 2. bad personal track record with ZIP drives (click of death), 3. going more for a period system than for ease of use. > You could always run your -11 from the BA123. It's a bit of > overkill, but you can fit all the disks you want in there and > pretty much never worry about running out of slots for boards. > > Of course, if you're actively using the MVII, don't do that. (shakes head) Totally wrong approach, I'm basically building the 11/23 "just" to populate an empty BA-11S shell that has that designation on it... The VSII is a very nice system all by itself which I got in a period configuration (CPU, 16MB RAM, VCB02 board set, RQDX3) and rounded out accordingly (8-port SLU, DELQA), and as it fits all together so nicely and works (even has the correct "VAXstation II/GPX" case sign too), I'm not changing that. (Neither of those systems is going to see much use anytime soon, much to my own regret...) [system monitoring board] > That's a fun idea. When I'm running my 11/23 in an open backplane, > I make sure I have a decently powerful fan blowing through it and > over the top. Those boards tend to dissipate between 10 and 20 > watts each, which is nothing to sneeze at, and the CPUs can get > quite locally hot. So I probably need two fan airflow sensors (I've seen that done with components that look like glass case small signal diodes - these work by dissipating a small amount of power and measuring the temperature increase from that, so they should detect when either the air flow fails or the ambient air is too hot to begin with, and a few stick-on probes (NTC?) for neuralgic components. Adjustable levels for forewarning and protective cutout; monitoring the DC rails for overvoltage and excessive ripple could be added for completeness. Just needs a breaker contact in line with the front panel switch. > The QBUS LAN cards definitely have more of a "meant for VAX" feel > to their documentation, IMO, but they do work fine in an -11. > > If you can, I'd recommend getting a DELQA instead of a DEQNA. > The DELQA is backwards-compatible with the DEQNA and is a lot > more reliable (mostly due to lower power dissipation). I'm > given to understand it takes a lot of load off the CPU as well. > The DELQA can use the DEQNA cable kit, so no need to worry > about that. Not standard for an '11, so not really of great interest for a start. Allison wrote: > The DEQNA has the mop boot for PDP11. seems that is a PDP11 thing. > The DELQA deleted that. > > The CPU load this was added around V5.* VMS as they discovered > a DEQNA bug that could corrupt packets in a uVAX system so the > packet has a secondary CRC16 added and does the reverse on > the other side to check the data and thats all in software (real pita). So basically DEQNA (if anything) for an '11, DELQA for a (?)VAX. > The CMD SCSI card is the way to go. Nah...SCSI is for Microcomputers, ain't it? ;^) > Get another... ;) If anything, I'd go for the radiator style (BA23) microPDP now, that's the package I don't have yet. Damn, you made me want one... Arno From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 12 18:38:57 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 16:38:57 -0700 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2013 Apr 12, at 11:28 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/11/2013 05:33 PM, David Riley wrote: >> >> The absolute best adaptor to >> use, if you can find it, is the Griffin MacPnP adaptor, which has >> a bank >> of DIP switches to set the monitor sense codes (necessary for older, >> more finicky Macs) and/or pass the DDC lines through. I have a >> number of >> Mac/VGA adaptors, some of which just pass the sense lines through >> verbatim and some of which have the sense code hard wired to what the >> manufacturer thought was right (for example, a 1024x768 VGA >> monitor came >> with an adaptor that was hard-wired to declare that it only supported >> 640x480 and 832x624). > > Hmm, I'd assume that in the absence of any DDC info it'll default > to some crappy resolution rather than outputting nothing, surely? Here are some schematics for video adapters I have used with 90s-era Macs. http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/videoAdapters.pdf The first one is one of those with the DIP switches on the adapter. The last one is a homemade cable (15-pin-Mac)-to-VGA cable that I use with a VGA LCD, essentially the same as the first one but with a hard- wired display code. (Also there is VGA to Sun adapter - for a while I used two chained adapters to drive a Sun 19-inch monitor from a Mac G3.) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 12 20:21:47 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 18:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130412181935.S65415@shell.lmi.net> On eBay, DA-15 to DE-15 adapters are called "Db15 to DB15" From jthecman at netscape.net Sat Apr 13 10:49:36 2013 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 11:49:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Houston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> References: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> Message-ID: <8D00675A25579E6-ACC-485CD@webmail-m181.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Sent: Fri, Apr 12, 2013 10:22 am Subject: Houston Computer Museum http://www.houstoncomputermuseum.org/index.html This one is kind of strange, worded oddly for American company, no address or phone number. Is anyone familiar with this museum? Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6237 - Release Date: 04/10/13 FYI The above URL was losted by the museum a few years ago because of a GoDaddy error. The correct URL is www.hlctm.org and we are on facebook, youtube, and twitter. John Keys Houston Computer Museum From jws at jwsss.com Sat Apr 13 12:15:24 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 10:15:24 -0700 Subject: PDP 8 components file for spice In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7435C77A@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7435C77A@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <516992AC.7040906@jwsss.com> On 4/12/2013 5:22 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > At the flip chip level it would include definitions for DEC3639B (aka 2N3639), D662 (aka 1N645) and D664 (aka 1N3606). Pretty standard stuff to read the datasheets and make SPICE models. > > A real design (or redesign) would pay extensive attention to margining just like the original designers did. SPICE can help verify to an extent, but all the details you actually need for design of RTL/DTL/flip-flop are in the 60's TI transistor design books. Last night I tinkered with what was posted and I threw in some garbage (actually for the diodes, I put in 1N4004 and for the transistor, a 2N918) just to get spice to shut up and it proved I had the right sort of syntax to satisfy the basic parser. Thanks to Tim, I'll find better models now that I know what I'm looking for. This is just an exercise to bring up a corner of what is out there I've not touched to see how it works. This is a fairly simple circuit, so should be possible to spot garbage in - garbage out symptoms warned of by Alison. thanks Jim From wlewisiii at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 18:13:10 2013 From: wlewisiii at gmail.com (William Barnett-Lewis) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 18:13:10 -0500 Subject: Hardware vs Simh Message-ID: I've been learning about the PDP-11 lately thanks to the wonder that is Simh, running various software on it and generally having fun. I don't have any purpose other than that at this time. I've been running everything I can get my hands on though I find, given my background, tastes and biases, that it's usually either Unix Version 7 or, especially, 2.11BSD that I'm firing up and exploring rather than, say the more DEC traditional RSTS/E. That said, I've been wondering what would be different (aside from noise & heat ;) about running 2.11BSD on hardware rather than in Simh on my increasingly decrepit Dell C640 running Xubuntu. Logically I should spend the money on a new intel based laptop but what's the fun in that? But then that turns on the question - is there even a cheap PDP-11 that can run 2.11BSD? I don't need a speed demon but how small is too small vs big enough? Let me see if I understand correctly what I would need: A BA23 or BA123 chassis. Would others work as well? A CPU with separate I/D space. 11/23, 11/53, 11/73, 11/83 or 11/93 would work with the Q-bus chassis above. 1mb to 4mb memory, 1mb is absolute minimum for 2.11 BSD & 4mb is highly desirable. Disk controller - though more expensive, sanity really says I should find a SCSI controller like RQZX1, Emulex UC-7 or CMD CQD-220. I have old SCSI disks; ESDI & the like? Not so much ... A RQDX3 & RX50 or TQK70 & TK70 would probably be in the 'nice to have' category as well. DELQA ethernet controller Would this work? What are the going rates for hobbyists (rather than resellers to those with production equipment)? Are there any, hmm, less expensive bits here or there? This is mostly a thought experiment as I don't really have the disposable cash right now for the various parts right now. OTOH, I find the process of learning more about the hardware, what would be required and how it functions, to give me a better understanding of what I'm doing with the emulator. Thanks to all here (the 11/23 thread has been of great value to me) and to bitsavers ;) and all the other fun resources out there. William -- Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance like no-one is watching. Alex White From b4 at gewt.net Sat Apr 13 18:27:57 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 23:27:57 -0000 Subject: Hardware vs Simh References: Message-ID: <5169E9FD.1010403@gewt.net> On 04/13/2013 07:13 PM, William Barnett-Lewis wrote: > > I've been learning about the PDP-11 lately thanks to the wonder that > is Simh, running various software on it and generally having fun. I > don't have any purpose other than that at this time. I've been running > everything I can get my hands on though I find, given my background, > tastes and biases, that it's usually either Unix Version 7 or, > especially, 2.11BSD that I'm firing up and exploring rather than, say > the more DEC traditional RSTS/E. > > That said, I've been wondering what would be different (aside from > noise & heat ;) about running 2.11BSD on hardware rather than in Simh > on my increasingly decrepit Dell C640 running Xubuntu. Logically I > should spend the money on a new intel based laptop but what's the fun > in that? > > But then that turns on the question - is there even a cheap PDP-11 > that can run 2.11BSD? I don't need a speed demon but how small is too > small vs big enough? > > Let me see if I understand correctly what I would need: > > A BA23 or BA123 chassis. Would others work as well? > A CPU with separate I/D space. 11/23, 11/53, 11/73, 11/83 or 11/93 > would work with the Q-bus chassis above. > 1mb to 4mb memory, 1mb is absolute minimum for 2.11 BSD & 4mb is > highly desirable. > Disk controller - though more expensive, sanity really says I should > find a SCSI controller like RQZX1, Emulex UC-7 or CMD CQD-220. I have > old SCSI disks; ESDI & the like? Not so much ... > A RQDX3 & RX50 or TQK70 & TK70 would probably be in the 'nice to > have' category as well. > DELQA ethernet controller IIRC the Qbus SCSI controllers go for quite a bit if you can find one, unfortunately. > > Would this work? What are the going rates for hobbyists (rather than > resellers to those with production equipment)? Are there any, hmm, > less expensive bits here or there? > > This is mostly a thought experiment as I don't really have the > disposable cash right now for the various parts right now. OTOH, I > find the process of learning more about the hardware, what would be > required and how it functions, to give me a better understanding of > what I'm doing with the emulator. > > Thanks to all here (the 11/23 thread has been of great value to me) > and to bitsavers ;) and all the other fun resources out there. > > William > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 18:41:19 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 16:41:19 -0700 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 4:13 PM, William Barnett-Lewis wrote: > > A BA23 or BA123 chassis. Would others work as well? > A CPU with separate I/D space. 11/23, 11/53, 11/73, 11/83 or 11/93 > would work with the Q-bus chassis above. > 1mb to 4mb memory, 1mb is absolute minimum for 2.11 BSD & 4mb is > highly desirable. > Disk controller - though more expensive, sanity really says I should > find a SCSI controller like RQZX1, Emulex UC-7 or CMD CQD-220. I have > old SCSI disks; ESDI & the like? Not so much ... > A RQDX3 & RX50 or TQK70 & TK70 would probably be in the 'nice to > have' category as well. > DELQA ethernet controller > > Would this work? What are the going rates for hobbyists (rather than > resellers to those with production equipment)? Are there any, hmm, > less expensive bits here or there? You can't run 2.11BSD on an 11/23, it doesn't have split I/D space. For a Q-bus system you need a KDJ11 processor. From what I've seen it is probably easiest to build an M8192 KDJ11-A or M8190 KDJ11-B system. An M8190 KDJ11-B will give you a nicer system but you need a Q22/CD backplane so pretty much a BA23. A BA123 works too but good luck finding one. An M8192 KDJ11-A will also work in plain Q22 backplane so that gives you more options, but then you need separate SLUs and boot ROMs. Sometimes you can find an M7554-SD DECServer 550 CPU in a BA213 chassis which you can also use as an 11/53. A ballpark figure might be around $300 for whole system with an M8190 KDJ11-B, (2x) M8637 MSV11-J, CMD CQD-220/TM for disk and tape, and a BA23 chassis. If you had to buy each pieces separately on eBay you'd probably pay more than that. Sometimes you can get lucky and someone is practically giving a whole system away if you are in the right place at the right time. -Glen From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 18:48:22 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 16:48:22 -0700 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <5169E9FD.1010403@gewt.net> References: <5169E9FD.1010403@gewt.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > IIRC the Qbus SCSI controllers go for quite a bit if you can find one, > unfortunately. Maybe around $100 is a reasonable price for a CMD CQD-200/TM or CQD-220/TM, or Dilog SQ706A. The Emulex UC07 or UC08 seem to go for more of a premium. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 19:13:36 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 20:13:36 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 13, 2013, at 7:13 PM, William Barnett-Lewis wrote: > I've been learning about the PDP-11 lately thanks to the wonder that > is Simh, running various software on it and generally having fun. I > don't have any purpose other than that at this time. I've been running > everything I can get my hands on though I find, given my background, > tastes and biases, that it's usually either Unix Version 7 or, > especially, 2.11BSD that I'm firing up and exploring rather than, say > the more DEC traditional RSTS/E. > > That said, I've been wondering what would be different (aside from > noise & heat ;) about running 2.11BSD on hardware rather than in Simh > on my increasingly decrepit Dell C640 running Xubuntu. Logically I > should spend the money on a new intel based laptop but what's the fun > in that? It'll be a lot slower than SIMH. Between the much slower disk access speeds of vintage hardware and the fact that even on a low-end modern Intel microprocessor the emulation is still many times faster, it will feel noticeably slower. For example, an RSX-11M SYSGEN takes about a minute and a half on my Core 2 laptop from 2008, while it takes about three hours on my 11/23 running off a reasonably fast SCSI drive. But it's way more fun. :-) > But then that turns on the question - is there even a cheap PDP-11 > that can run 2.11BSD? I don't need a speed demon but how small is too > small vs big enough? For various values of "cheap", yes. Be prepared to buy parts piecemeal as you find them at good prices on eBay; you can fool around with banging stuff in over microcode with just a CPU and some RAM (and, obviously, a backplane and a power supply, though you can use a PC power supply if you can hook it up to a backplane). If you have a serial line, you can hook it up to a DECTape emulator on a PC for block-based storage space to boot, say, RT11. > Let me see if I understand correctly what I would need: > > A BA23 or BA123 chassis. Would others work as well? Yes. The BA11-N, -M and -S chassis are also quite suitable boxes. You don't necessarily need the chassis, actually; for a long time, my 11/23 was running in an open H9270 backplane (the 4-slot serpentine one from the BA11-M) hooked up to a PC power supply with some fans from Target to make sure I had adequate airflow. DON'T skimp on the airflow. A simple review of QBUS chassis that covers most of the relevant details is here: http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis > A CPU with separate I/D space. 11/23, 11/53, 11/73, 11/83 or 11/93 > would work with the Q-bus chassis above. Yes, as well as the LSI-11 and /03, but the /23 and below do not support separate I/D space. You need a KDJ11 CPU for that, which means a /53, /73, /83 or /93. You can often find KDJ11 boards reasonably priced on eBay (I know JT Computers, username conflansrd, has both the -A version (/73, dual-width card) and -B version (/83, quad- width with PMI capability) for $120). I recall that there are KDJ11-B boards that are marked as 11/73 boards; those can use PMI, but I seem to recall that the difference is that they couldn't use the FPA (floating point accelerator). Try to get a -B board of whatever you get; I like my KDF11-B quite a bit because it has the boot ROM and console serial line (plus a bonus serial line) built in. The KDJ11-B has that as well. You can run 2.9 BSD on a KDF11. > 1mb to 4mb memory, 1mb is absolute minimum for 2.11 BSD & 4mb is > highly desirable. For DEC OSes, you can get away with somewhat less. When you're getting RAM, make sure it's the right kind; MSV11-J RAM is PMI memory for the /83 and /93, while MSV11-P and -Q (and some others) are regular QBUS RAM. The -Q (-QA, -QB and -QC, which are 1, 2 and 4 MB quad- width boards) are block mode DMA capable, which is nice if you have I/O devices that can take advantage of that. > Disk controller - though more expensive, sanity really says I should > find a SCSI controller like RQZX1, Emulex UC-7 or CMD CQD-220. I have > old SCSI disks; ESDI & the like? Not so much ... > A RQDX3 & RX50 or TQK70 & TK70 would probably be in the 'nice to > have' category as well. A SCSI card is great. If you find one at a good price, get it. I love my CQD-220. If you get one, NEVER set the number of tapes and disks to 0, or you'll brick your card. I have a ROM fix for that, but it's a pain. > DELQA ethernet controller > > Would this work? What are the going rates for hobbyists (rather than > resellers to those with production equipment)? Are there any, hmm, > less expensive bits here or there? Most of my cards (including CPU, RAM, DELQA, CQD-220 and a few others) came in around 100-150. Sometimes I was lucky and got them a bit cheaper. This was almost all off eBay, though; if you know the right people (I didn't when I started collecting), you can get away much cheaper. > This is mostly a thought experiment as I don't really have the > disposable cash right now for the various parts right now. OTOH, I > find the process of learning more about the hardware, what would be > required and how it functions, to give me a better understanding of > what I'm doing with the emulator. > > Thanks to all here (the 11/23 thread has been of great value to me) > and to bitsavers ;) and all the other fun resources out there. Have fun, that's the important part! Get the bare minimum of useful hardware first so you can play around with ODT and keying in programs; you can build it up over time without stressing your wallet out too much. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 19:17:34 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 20:17:34 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F48B5B1-4E68-4A3B-895C-3D00D36ECA43@gmail.com> On Apr 13, 2013, at 7:41 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > A ballpark figure might be around $300 for whole system with an M8190 > KDJ11-B, (2x) M8637 MSV11-J, CMD CQD-220/TM for disk and tape, and a > BA23 chassis. If you had to buy each pieces separately on eBay you'd > probably pay more than that. Sometimes you can get lucky and someone > is practically giving a whole system away if you are in the right > place at the right time. That seems like an optimistic price on eBay, especially for chassis. They go for a lot on eBay and cost a lot to ship because they're HEAVY. You're better off trying to find someone (perhaps from this list) that has one to spare/sell that is close enough you can drive to. But yes, sometimes you can get really lucky on eBay. Or, if you live in the right part of the country (in the USA, that would be generally the right parts of California or Massachusetts), Craigslist/dumpster diving. I had rather little luck in MD, WV or PA, but I found a guy an hour and a half away in NJ who was willing to part with a nice BA11-S for less than a fortune. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 13 19:42:21 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 20:42:21 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5169FB6D.5000303@neurotica.com> On 04/13/2013 07:41 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > A ballpark figure might be around $300 for whole system with an M8190 > KDJ11-B, (2x) M8637 MSV11-J, CMD CQD-220/TM for disk and tape, and a > BA23 chassis. If you had to buy each pieces separately on eBay you'd > probably pay more than that. Sometimes you can get lucky and someone > is practically giving a whole system away if you are in the right > place at the right time. I'd buy every one I could get my hands on if they really sold for that price. ;) Subtract the SCSI host adapter and you might be moving toward the right ballpark but it would still be a heck of a deal. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Apr 13 19:56:16 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 20:56:16 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> >William Barnett-Lewis wrote: >I've been learning about the PDP-11 lately thanks to the wonder that >is Simh, running various software on it and generally having fun. I >don't have any purpose other than that at this time. I've been running >everything I can get my hands on though I find, given my background, >tastes and biases, that it's usually either Unix Version 7 or, >especially, 2.11BSD that I'm firing up and exploring rather than, say >the more DEC traditional RSTS/E. > >That said, I've been wondering what would be different (aside from >noise & heat ;) about running 2.11BSD on hardware rather than in Simh >on my increasingly decrepit Dell C640 running Xubuntu. Logically I >should spend the money on a new intel based laptop but what's the fun >in that? > > If you don't already have any DEC systems to run 2.11BSD, then I suspect that staying with SimH is probably a better alternative. On the other hand, if you want to consider executing even faster, Ersatz-11 makes a HUGE difference. While I the only comparison I have is using RT-11, a reasonable estimate using current mutli-core CPUs of more than 3 GHz running a Windows operating system such as Windows XP or Windows 7 (which supports caching of the disk drives) is about 150 times a PDP-11/93. The disk I/O will be even faster In addition, Ersatz-11 supports VT100 emulation of up to 12 "terminals". If you need any additional information, please ask. >But then that turns on the question - is there even a cheap PDP-11 >that can run 2.11BSD? I don't need a speed demon but how small is too >small vs big enough? > > Is there any particular reason that real DEC CPUs are important? >Let me see if I understand correctly what I would need: > >A BA23 or BA123 chassis. Would others work as well? >A CPU with separate I/D space. 11/23, 11/53, 11/73, 11/83 or 11/93 >would work with the Q-bus chassis above. > > A PDP-11/23 does NOT support separate I/D space. The J11 CPU chip would be required. >1mb to 4mb memory, 1mb is absolute minimum for 2.11 BSD & 4mb is >highly desirable. > > Both SimH and Ersatz-11 will always provide 4 MB just bt asking. >Disk controller - though more expensive, sanity really says I should >find a SCSI controller like RQZX1, Emulex UC-7 or CMD CQD-220. I have >old SCSI disks; ESDI & the like? Not so much ... >A RQDX3 & RX50 or TQK70 & TK70 would probably be in the 'nice to >have' category as well. > > Under SimH and Ersatz-11, you also have access to much more "disk" space. But you already know that. >DELQA ethernet controller > > I don't use ethernet myself. How well does SimH handle ethernet? >Would this work? What are the going rates for hobbyists (rather than >resellers to those with production equipment)? Are there any, hmm, >less expensive bits here or there? > > A PDP-11/73 system in a BA23 box may still be available free, but not in all areas of the US. Outside the US, they are probably less available. >This is mostly a thought experiment as I don't really have the >disposable cash right now for the various parts right now. OTOH, I >find the process of learning more about the hardware, what would be >required and how it functions, to give me a better understanding of >what I'm doing with the emulator. > > In general, my experience with RT-11 under Ersatz-11 is that the ONLY difference is that it is faster and more convenient, especially the size of disk storage. On my real DEC PDP-11/83, I have 4 MB, 3 * 600 MB Hitachi ESDI hard drives and SIX VT100 terminals on the desk. I am still running Ersatz-11 under Windows 98SE on a 750 MHz Pentium III with 768 MB of memory. I have a Q9600 core-2 quad system with Windows XP waiting to be upgraded, but there does not seem to be any real incentive. >Thanks to all here (the 11/23 thread has been of great value to me) >and to bitsavers ;) and all the other fun resources out there. > If you also try out Ersatz-11, I would be very interested in how much faster it runs than SimH in addition to other aspects.. Please let us know. Jerome Fine From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 13 23:07:20 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 22:07:20 -0600 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: In article <516400C5.3070603 at xs4all.nl>, MG writes: > On 9-apr-2013 7:59, Jerry Wright wrote: > > Some of the their workstations where Sun SPARC's and later they built their > > own Intel based desk top systems. > > This one is likely not one of either, but CLIPPER (look it up). Both wrong. The InterServe 200 is an 80186 according to their ads. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 13 23:23:39 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 00:23:39 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> Message-ID: <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> On 04/13/2013 08:56 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> I've been learning about the PDP-11 lately thanks to the wonder that >> is Simh, running various software on it and generally having fun. I >> don't have any purpose other than that at this time. I've been running >> everything I can get my hands on though I find, given my background, >> tastes and biases, that it's usually either Unix Version 7 or, >> especially, 2.11BSD that I'm firing up and exploring rather than, say >> the more DEC traditional RSTS/E. >> >> That said, I've been wondering what would be different (aside from >> noise & heat ;) about running 2.11BSD on hardware rather than in Simh >> on my increasingly decrepit Dell C640 running Xubuntu. Logically I >> should spend the money on a new intel based laptop but what's the fun >> in that? > > If you don't already have any DEC systems to run 2.11BSD, then > I suspect that staying with SimH is probably a better alternative. There is more to vintage computing than just software! >> But then that turns on the question - is there even a cheap PDP-11 >> that can run 2.11BSD? I don't need a speed demon but how small is too >> small vs big enough? > > Is there any particular reason that real DEC CPUs are important? There is more to vintage computing than just software!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From xmechanic at landcomp.net Sat Apr 13 23:49:01 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 22:49:01 -0600 Subject: Houston Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <8D00675A25579E6-ACC-485CD@webmail-m181.sysops.aol.com> References: <048401ce378d$824cc9f0$86e65dd0$@com> <8D00675A25579E6-ACC-485CD@webmail-m181.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <516A353D.6040806@landcomp.net> On 4/13/13 9:49 AM, jthecman at netscape.net wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Sent: Fri, Apr 12, 2013 10:22 am > Subject: Houston Computer Museum > > > http://www.houstoncomputermuseum.org/index.html > > > > This one is kind of strange, worded oddly for American company, no address > or phone number. Is anyone familiar with this museum? > > > > Cindy Croxton > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6237 - Release Date: 04/10/13 > > FYI > The above URL was losted by the museum a few years ago because of a > GoDaddy error. The correct URL is www.hlctm.org and we are on facebook, > youtube, and twitter. > > John Keys > Houston Computer Museum > > > > > > This was posted sometime in 2009... "We had to stop walk-in showings for now at our current location because of construction." 4 years of construction?? Wow, this must be going to be along the lines of Smithsonian when it's finished. :)) J/K -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From b4 at gewt.net Sat Apr 13 23:49:08 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 04:49:08 -0000 Subject: Hardware vs Simh References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5FB4A2E5-AFB5-4DAD-98B5-BCD8808E15CC@gewt.net> On 14 Apr 2013, at 00:23, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > On 04/13/2013 08:56 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> I've been learning about the PDP-11 lately thanks to the wonder that >>> is Simh, running various software on it and generally having fun. I >>> don't have any purpose other than that at this time. I've been running >>> everything I can get my hands on though I find, given my background, >>> tastes and biases, that it's usually either Unix Version 7 or, >>> especially, 2.11BSD that I'm firing up and exploring rather than, say >>> the more DEC traditional RSTS/E. >>> >>> That said, I've been wondering what would be different (aside from >>> noise & heat ;) about running 2.11BSD on hardware rather than in Simh >>> on my increasingly decrepit Dell C640 running Xubuntu. Logically I >>> should spend the money on a new intel based laptop but what's the fun >>> in that? >> >> If you don't already have any DEC systems to run 2.11BSD, then >> I suspect that staying with SimH is probably a better alternative. > > There is more to vintage computing than just software! Exactly! You need the total immersion. ;) Personally, I want to go the extra mile and keep the decorations period-accurate, too. ;) > >>> But then that turns on the question - is there even a cheap PDP-11 >>> that can run 2.11BSD? I don't need a speed demon but how small is too >>> small vs big enough? >> >> Is there any particular reason that real DEC CPUs are important? > > There is more to vintage computing than just software!! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 14 06:22:26 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 07:22:26 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516A9172.507@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: >>On 04/13/2013 08:56 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > >>>I've been learning about the PDP-11 lately thanks to the wonder that >>>is Simh, running various software on it and generally having fun. I >>>don't have any purpose other than that at this time. I've been running >>>everything I can get my hands on though I find, given my background, >>>tastes and biases, that it's usually either Unix Version 7 or, >>>especially, 2.11BSD that I'm firing up and exploring rather than, say >>>the more DEC traditional RSTS/E. >>> >>>That said, I've been wondering what would be different (aside from >>>noise & heat ;) about running 2.11BSD on hardware rather than in Simh >>>on my increasingly decrepit Dell C640 running Xubuntu. Logically I >>>should spend the money on a new intel based laptop but what's the fun >>>in that? >>> >>> >>If you don't already have any DEC systems to run 2.11BSD, then >>I suspect that staying with SimH is probably a better alternative. >> >> > > There is more to vintage computing than just software! > > I acknowledge that I am probably the only person on this list who prefers an emulator for the PDP-11 over a real DEC CPU and hardware associated with that solution. However, I am extremely curious!!! What are the criteria which determine if the original hardware is chosen over an emulator which runs 150 times faster - assuming at the very least that choosing the emulator is equal or less expensive than the original hardware AND running under the emulator also supports all the other computer requirements for that user. >>>But then that turns on the question - is there even a cheap PDP-11 >>>that can run 2.11BSD? I don't need a speed demon but how small is too >>>small vs big enough? >>> >>> >>Is there any particular reason that real DEC CPUs are important? >> >> > > There is more to vintage computing than just software!! > I agree!! Can you describe what is included in "more"? (a) Extra noise (b) Extra heat (c) Total cost is more (d) Slower CPU (e) Slower disk I/O (f) Slower ethernet (g) Less disk space (h) Smell, touch and feel of original hardware I am not suggesting that (h) is better than (a) -> (g), but it would help if you could explain why. I will accept: "That is just the way it is!" as the explanation. Jerome Fine From spedraja at ono.com Sun Apr 14 07:40:57 2013 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 14:40:57 +0200 Subject: OMNI Collection in Archive.org Message-ID: For all those interested in Science Fiction and Science, this little gift: https://archive.org/details/omni-magazine Regards SPc. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 07:54:38 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 08:54:38 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516A9172.507@compsys.to> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Apr 14, 2013, at 7:22, "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> If you don't already have any DEC systems to run 2.11BSD, then >>> I suspect that staying with SimH is probably a better alternative. >> >> There is more to vintage computing than just software! > I acknowledge that I am probably the only person on this list > who prefers an emulator for the PDP-11 over a real DEC > CPU and hardware associated with that solution. > > However, I am extremely curious!!! What are the criteria which > determine if the original hardware is chosen over an emulator > which runs 150 times faster - assuming at the very least that > choosing the emulator is equal or less expensive than the > original hardware AND running under the emulator also > supports all the other computer requirements for that user. > >>>> But then that turns on the question - is there even a cheap PDP-11 >>>> that can run 2.11BSD? I don't need a speed demon but how small is too >>>> small vs big enough? >>> Is there any particular reason that real DEC CPUs are important? >> >> There is more to vintage computing than just software!! > I agree!! Can you describe what is included in "more"? > (a) Extra noise > (b) Extra heat > (c) Total cost is more > (d) Slower CPU > (e) Slower disk I/O > (f) Slower ethernet > (g) Less disk space > (h) Smell, touch and feel of original hardware > > I am not suggesting that (h) is better than (a) -> (g), but it would > help if you could explain why. I will accept: "That is just the way > it is!" as the explanation. (h) is part of it, but for some of us, it's also the feeling of accomplishment for keeping a 30+-year-old computer alive. The way I explain it to family and friends who don't get why I like spending time in the basement with old, loud computers when I have perfectly fine ones upstairs is that it's like people who maintain classic cars. Old cars are slower, less reliable and guzzle more gas than even a cheap newer one, but for some reason it's socially acceptable for people to tinker with *those*. For some of us (like me) for whom these machines are actually OLDER than us, it's a way of understanding computing of the past in a way that an emulator just won't do. For example, I mentioned that on Simh on a somewhat older laptop ran an RSX11-M SYSGEN in about a minute and a half, while a real 11/23 took about three hours. That was quite the revelation for me, and it's not something I would have fundamentally understood without the real hardware. The "collecting" aspect of it is fun as well, though I imagine that novelty wears off when you have a full basement and difficulty lifting even a BA11 box. I'm not saying your points are invalid, because they're not. If I were trying to maintain a commercial PDP-11 installation that didn't have special hardware to consider, I might prefer an emulator because it'll be faster and possibly more reliable (though I'm going to count on my 11/23 outliving my next 3 x86 servers). It's a different set of considerations. - Dave From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Apr 14 08:57:26 2013 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 08:57:26 -0500 Subject: adm3 terminal on latest doctor who (cold war) episode In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516AB5C6.4070206@ubanproductions.com> the subject says it all, just saw it about 12 minutes into the episode, so i'm looking forward to what else there will be... From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Apr 14 09:20:29 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:20:29 +0200 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516A9172.507@compsys.to> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> Message-ID: <516ABB2D.2030807@e-bbes.com> On 2013-04-14 13:22, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> Is there any particular reason that real DEC CPUs are important? >> There is more to vintage computing than just software!! > I agree!! Can you describe what is included in "more"? > (a) Extra noise > (b) Extra heat > (c) Total cost is more > (d) Slower CPU > (e) Slower disk I/O > (f) Slower ethernet > (g) Less disk space > (h) Smell, touch and feel of original hardware > > I am not suggesting that (h) is better than (a) -> (g), but it would > help if you could explain why. I will accept: "That is just the way > it is!" as the explanation. If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand ;-) Anyway, I play/work with emulators a lot, both pdp11 and VAX, and yes, for a lot of work they are nice. Just switching container files, doing backup on a network is nice. But, then there is this thing going to the "other" office, flipping the switch, see some flickering on the lights, and hear the fans starting up, drives spinning up. Then the real vt100/vt220/vt340 terminals, 9-track tapes, it simply feels right. Probably: Mona Lisa as .jpg, versus the real thing? ;-) Cheers From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Apr 14 09:32:00 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 10:32:00 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <5FB4A2E5-AFB5-4DAD-98B5-BCD8808E15CC@gewt.net> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <5FB4A2E5-AFB5-4DAD-98B5-BCD8808E15CC@gewt.net> Message-ID: <516ABDE0.7020503@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/04/13 12:49 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > > On 14 Apr 2013, at 00:23, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > >>... >> There is more to vintage computing than just software! > > Exactly! You need the total immersion. ;) > > Personally, I want to go the extra mile and keep the decorations period-accurate, too. ;) > Why did I just think of fuzzy dice... --T From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 14 09:39:41 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 08:39:41 -0600 Subject: adm3 terminal on latest doctor who (cold war) episode In-Reply-To: <516AB5C6.4070206@ubanproductions.com> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> <516AB5C6.4070206@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <516ABFAD.6040101@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/14/2013 7:57 AM, Tom Uban wrote: > the subject says it all, just saw it about 12 minutes into the > episode, so i'm looking forward to what else there will be... I saw that too. If they got rid of that prop, I think it would have given a better cold war feel. > Ben. PS. The fist 10 minutes was the only good part. From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Apr 14 10:13:58 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 11:13:58 -0400 Subject: Available S-100 PCBs Message-ID: <00b401ce3922$be5fbe20$3b1f3a60$@YAHOO.COM> Hi Good news! There are several new and reordered S-100 PCBs available! The S-100 68K CPU boards finally came in so there are about 27 available. There are 40 of the S-100 IDE V2 reorder PCBs and about 30 of the new S-100 bus terminator/prototyping board PCBs. There are seven (7) of the S-100 LAVA PCBs available and two (2) of the S-100 regular prototyping board PCBs available. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/68000%20Board/68K%20CPU%20Board .htm http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/IDE%20Board/My%20IDE%20Card.htm http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20bus%20t erminator http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20regular %20prototyping%20board The S-100 PCBs cost the same as before ($20 each). However due to unforeseen extreme price increases in shipping by USPS I am forced to change shipping costs. Shipping in the US will be $3 for a single PCB and $2 for each additional PCB. Shipping internationally will be $10 for a single PCB and $3 for each additional PCB. This is for the bare basics USPS first class postage with no tracking or insurance. The builder assumes all risk of delivery as per usual arrangement. I apologize for the large price increase on shipping but this is out of my hands. The USPS is in dire financial trouble and is raising prices on shipping. It affects us all and is most unfortunate. These boards are provided "at cost" so there is no margin to absorb any shipping price increases. I have to pass them along. If you would like one or more S-100 PCBs please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, if you would like to help out this all-volunteer project please get one or more of the S-100 LAVA PCBs. Also the S-100 regular prototyping board PCBs. These PCBs are the oldest ones and them sitting around on a shelf does no one any good. I'd like these to go to a hobbyist who would get some enjoyment from these fun to build and use boards. Thanks in advance. From wilson at dbit.com Sun Apr 14 10:59:30 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 11:59:30 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516ABDE0.7020503@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <5FB4A2E5-AFB5-4DAD-98B5-BCD8808E15CC@gewt.net> <516ABDE0.7020503@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20130414155929.GA10329@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 10:32:00AM -0400, Toby Thain wrote: >Why did I just think of fuzzy dice... Nice -- I totally did have a pair of fuzzy dice hanging from the DZ11 dist panel on my 11/34a in the 1980s! I can see how multi-hour SYSGENs are a trip for people who have a choice, but they were no fun in the old days when we didn't (especially swapping packs multiple times, with a risk of expensive damage at every step -- and a floppy-only SYSGEN is not funny) so I'm extremely relieved that those days are over. But of course, I'm biased. And I certainly did get a big kick out of it when I first got E11's raw floppy driver working and was able to boot RT-11 from 8"-workalike 5.25" disks. I didn't realize that series of clicks and whirs had been so deeply imprinted on my brain! John Wilson D Bit From db at db.net Sun Apr 14 11:21:37 2013 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 11:21:37 -0500 Subject: adm3 terminal on latest doctor who (cold war) episode In-Reply-To: <516ABFAD.6040101@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> <516AB5C6.4070206@ubanproductions.com> <516ABFAD.6040101@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20130414162137.GA1570@night.db.net> On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 08:39:41AM -0600, ben wrote: > On 4/14/2013 7:57 AM, Tom Uban wrote: > > the subject says it all, just saw it about 12 minutes into the > > episode, so i'm looking forward to what else there will be... > > I saw that too. If they got rid of that prop, I think it would have given > a better cold war feel. Just looking at that now. Wow. What is it sitting on? > > > > Ben. > PS. The fist 10 minutes was the only good part. > - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 11:26:59 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 12:26:59 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <20130414155929.GA10329@dbit.dbit.com> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <5FB4A2E5-AFB5-4DAD-98B5-BCD8808E15CC@gewt.net> <516ABDE0.7020503@telegraphics.com.au> <20130414155929.GA10329@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Apr 14, 2013, at 11:59 AM, John Wilson wrote: > I can see how multi-hour SYSGENs are a trip for people who have a choice, > but they were no fun in the old days when we didn't (especially swapping > packs multiple times, with a risk of expensive damage at every step -- and > a floppy-only SYSGEN is not funny) so I'm extremely relieved that those > days are over. I didn't say that part was *fun*, just an educational experience. :-) Coming back down to the basement after half an hour, expecting it to be mostly done, and seeing that it was still in the middle of executive assembly made me do a double-take. That's when I realized why the build process has timestamps all over the place. > But of course, I'm biased. And I certainly did get a big > kick out of it when I first got E11's raw floppy driver working and was able > to boot RT-11 from 8"-workalike 5.25" disks. I didn't realize that series > of clicks and whirs had been so deeply imprinted on my brain! I'm much the same with the Apple II drives; it's just not the same without the "chugging" sound of the disk drive establishing track 0. Gerd Knorr's "Virtual II" emulator actually duplicates a lot of the drive sounds for startup and disk activity, which I thought was a hoot. - Dave From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 11:28:43 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 09:28:43 -0700 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <8F48B5B1-4E68-4A3B-895C-3D00D36ECA43@gmail.com> References: <8F48B5B1-4E68-4A3B-895C-3D00D36ECA43@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 5:17 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 13, 2013, at 7:41 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> A ballpark figure might be around $300 for whole system with an M8190 >> KDJ11-B, (2x) M8637 MSV11-J, CMD CQD-220/TM for disk and tape, and a >> BA23 chassis. If you had to buy each pieces separately on eBay you'd >> probably pay more than that. Sometimes you can get lucky and someone >> is practically giving a whole system away if you are in the right >> place at the right time. > > That seems like an optimistic price on eBay, especially > for chassis. They go for a lot on eBay and cost a lot > to ship because they're HEAVY. You're better off trying > to find someone (perhaps from this list) that has one to > spare/sell that is close enough you can drive to. Yeah, I was probably thinking of some of the better deals on pieces that I have gotten in the past, not what you might be likely to find in the market today. Maybe closer to $500, plus shipping, for the configuration I mentioned in the current market. The (2x) BA23 and (1x) BA123 systems I have were obtained locally and I didn't have to pay for shipping so those were nice deals for me. Don't see too many complete Q-bus PDP-11 systems sold on eBay to get a good feel for the market value of complete systems. This one last August seemed a bit odd to me at the time. $1200 for a PDP-11/73? http://www.ebay.com/itm/300690807559 Then there is someone giving away a PDP-11/23+ in unknown condition in Pennsylvania: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?36657 From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 11:29:21 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 12:29:21 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <5FB4A2E5-AFB5-4DAD-98B5-BCD8808E15CC@gewt.net> <516ABDE0.7020503@telegraphics.com.au> <20130414155929.GA10329@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Apr 14, 2013, at 12:26 PM, David Riley wrote: > I'm much the same with the Apple II drives; it's just > not the same without the "chugging" sound of the disk > drive establishing track 0. Gerd Knorr's "Virtual II" > emulator actually duplicates a lot of the drive sounds > for startup and disk activity, which I thought was a > hoot. Sorry, that's Gerard Putter, not Gerd Knorr. I'm confusing my Germanic software developers. :-) - Dave From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 11:34:47 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 09:34:47 -0700 Subject: adm3 terminal on latest doctor who (cold war) episode In-Reply-To: <516AB5C6.4070206@ubanproductions.com> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> <516AB5C6.4070206@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 6:57 AM, Tom Uban wrote: > the subject says it all, just saw it about 12 minutes into the > episode, so i'm looking forward to what else there will be... Yep, saw that too yesterday and also thought it looked like an ADM-3A. But didn't the one on the show have a keypad? More like an ADM-5? I'll have to go back and look at the show again. From jws at jwsss.com Sun Apr 14 11:34:51 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 09:34:51 -0700 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516ADAAB.7030603@jwsss.com> On 4/13/2013 9:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > There is more to vintage computing than just software! Were there a time machine and i could go back to a datacenter (surely my destination), I'd head to the tape room first. I never did like setting things on fire as much as programming and playing. Example: in the first lab I worked in there was a MIcrodata 1621 with a Wangco half inch 9 track tape and a Dynex 5mb drive, pretty advanced for 1971. For quite a while all went well and most of my time and a couple of others was working on a disk OS. One weekend a guy was working on the system and disaster struck. The original 5mb Dynex had three large pieces. THe power supply had what seemed like one of every voltage you could have, but especially +24 and +5 and +12. All of this went into the second large box which is what we would call a 4u for factor now, a 19' wide box about 4' high and full depth with all the logic on a couple of boards. THe power fed into that. The 1600 connected to this box via a ribbon cable and from the box to the drive, which was the usual 19" by 8" hi by full depth 14" drive box. From that to each drive (in our case one) there was a 50 or 60 ping thin ribbon cable. the power supply was mounted on the read of the rack railing just low enough for the drive to clear (actually not and the logic below that.) One of the guys wass working on something and on about the nth slide in of the drive (it was top loading 2.5mb 2315) the logic cable + drive cable was pinched between the power supply and the bottom of the drive and the power supply lots of magic smoke in the room later and about 3000 bucks worth of damage we realized we had a disaster. the 24v was shorted to logic and +5 rail and zapped logic on the controller, and in the 1600 card cage on all boards. 200 Ic's and 6 months later it was running again. That is probably why I don't like playing with hardware. I didn't do it, but I just wanted to play programmer, and this was a 6 month down time that was no fun. AT one point Jay wEst owned this system, then a friend of mine, and eventually I got it, FWIW. Simulators and Al K are your friend (+ simh for a lot of other stuff) Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 14 11:57:00 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 12:57:00 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516A9172.507@compsys.to> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> Message-ID: <516ADFDC.9060800@neurotica.com> On 04/14/2013 07:22 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>>> But then that turns on the question - is there even a cheap PDP-11 >>>> that can run 2.11BSD? I don't need a speed demon but how small is too >>>> small vs big enough? >>>> >>> Is there any particular reason that real DEC CPUs are important? >> >> There is more to vintage computing than just software!! >> > I agree!! Can you describe what is included in "more"? > (a) Extra noise > (b) Extra heat > (c) Total cost is more > (d) Slower CPU > (e) Slower disk I/O > (f) Slower ethernet > (g) Less disk space > (h) Smell, touch and feel of original hardware > > I am not suggesting that (h) is better than (a) -> (g), but it would > help if you could explain why. I will accept: "That is just the way > it is!" as the explanation. It is a matter of what you *like*. I personally like both hardware and software in the context of vintage computing, but for me, the engineering, ingenuity, design, and construction found in the hardware is more interesting. MUCH MUCH more interesting. That is MY view. It's different from yours, AND THAT IS OK. You speak from the standpoint of someone who only cares about software, and for whom the hardware is completely irrelevant. And that's 100% fine...it's what you like, and what you're interested in. However, please acknowledge that other people like and are interested in DIFFERENT things than you....and that needs to be ok too. The OP is clearly interested in hardware as well as software...please do not try to dissuade him from following his interests. It is not the case that all the ingenuity, all the engineering, all the thought, all the effort that went into computing in the early years was all directed toward and poured into software. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From slandon110 at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 12:27:07 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:27:07 -0400 Subject: AE GSRAM Plus- DRAMS needed 1024x1, Total of 40 needed Message-ID: <516AE6EB.9010001@gmail.com> Im looking for 40 dram chips for my AE GSRam Plus to expand it to the full 6MB It takes 1024x1 DRAM Chips Thanks Steve From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 14 12:30:40 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:30:40 -0000 Subject: Hardware vs Simh References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> Message-ID: <516AE7C0.7060608@gewt.net> On 04/14/2013 08:54 AM, David Riley wrote: > > On Apr 14, 2013, at 7:22, "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >>> Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>>> If you don't already have any DEC systems to run 2.11BSD, then >>>> I suspect that staying with SimH is probably a better alternative. >>> >>> There is more to vintage computing than just software! >> I acknowledge that I am probably the only person on this list >> who prefers an emulator for the PDP-11 over a real DEC >> CPU and hardware associated with that solution. >> >> However, I am extremely curious!!! What are the criteria which >> determine if the original hardware is chosen over an emulator >> which runs 150 times faster - assuming at the very least that >> choosing the emulator is equal or less expensive than the >> original hardware AND running under the emulator also >> supports all the other computer requirements for that user. >> >>>>> But then that turns on the question - is there even a cheap PDP-11 >>>>> that can run 2.11BSD? I don't need a speed demon but how small is too >>>>> small vs big enough? >>>> Is there any particular reason that real DEC CPUs are important? >>> >>> There is more to vintage computing than just software!! >> I agree!! Can you describe what is included in "more"? >> (a) Extra noise >> (b) Extra heat >> (c) Total cost is more >> (d) Slower CPU >> (e) Slower disk I/O >> (f) Slower ethernet >> (g) Less disk space >> (h) Smell, touch and feel of original hardware >> >> I am not suggesting that (h) is better than (a) -> (g), but it would >> help if you could explain why. I will accept: "That is just the way >> it is!" as the explanation. > > (h) is part of it, but for some of us, it's also the feeling of > accomplishment for keeping a 30+-year-old computer alive. > The way I explain it to family and friends who don't get > why I like spending time in the basement with old, loud > computers when I have perfectly fine ones upstairs is that > it's like people who maintain classic cars. Old cars are slower, > less reliable and guzzle more gas than even a cheap newer > one, but for some reason it's socially acceptable for people > to tinker with *those*. > > For some of us (like me) for whom these machines are > actually OLDER than us, it's a way of understanding computing > of the past in a way that an emulator just won't do. For example, > I mentioned that on Simh on a somewhat older laptop ran > an RSX11-M SYSGEN in about a minute and a half, while a > real 11/23 took about three hours. That was quite the revelation for > me, and it's not something I would have fundamentally understood > without the real hardware. > > The "collecting" aspect of it is fun as well, though I imagine that > novelty wears off when you have a full basement and difficulty > lifting even a BA11 box. > > I'm not saying your points are invalid, because they're not. If > I were trying to maintain a commercial PDP-11 installation that > didn't have special hardware to consider, I might prefer > an emulator because it'll be faster and possibly more reliable > (though I'm going to count on my 11/23 outliving my next 3 x86 > servers). It's a different set of considerations. I'm going to count on your 11/23 outliving them as well. ;) > > - Dave > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 14 12:38:31 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:38:31 -0000 Subject: Hardware vs Simh References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516ADAAB.7030603@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <516AE997.8060001@gewt.net> On 04/14/2013 12:34 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > > On 4/13/2013 9:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> There is more to vintage computing than just software! > Were there a time machine and i could go back to a datacenter (surely my > destination), I'd head to the tape room first. > > I never did like setting things on fire as much as programming and > playing. > > Example: in the first lab I worked in there was a MIcrodata 1621 with a > Wangco half inch 9 track tape and a Dynex 5mb drive, pretty advanced for > 1971. For quite a while all went well and most of my time and a couple > of others was working on a disk OS. One weekend a guy was working on > the system and disaster struck. > > The original 5mb Dynex had three large pieces. THe power supply had > what seemed like one of every voltage you could have, but especially +24 > and +5 and +12. All of this went into the second large box which is > what we would call a 4u for factor now, a 19' wide box about 4' high and > full depth with all the logic on a couple of boards. THe power fed into > that. > > The 1600 connected to this box via a ribbon cable and from the box to > the drive, which was the usual 19" by 8" hi by full depth 14" drive > box. From that to each drive (in our case one) there was a 50 or 60 > ping thin ribbon cable. > > the power supply was mounted on the read of the rack railing just low > enough for the drive to clear (actually not and the logic below that.) > > One of the guys wass working on something and on about the nth slide in > of the drive (it was top loading 2.5mb 2315) the logic cable + drive > cable was pinched between the power supply and the bottom of the drive > and the power supply > > lots of magic smoke in the room later and about 3000 bucks worth of > damage we realized we had a disaster. the 24v was shorted to logic and > +5 rail and zapped logic on the controller, and in the 1600 card cage on > all boards. > > 200 Ic's and 6 months later it was running again. > > That is probably why I don't like playing with hardware. I didn't do > it, but I just wanted to play programmer, and this was a 6 month down > time that was no fun. Understandable. I, however find failures in older gear fascinating...you can actually fix them a lot of the time. ;) They're also a great learning experience as you can actually get at the components! I just like a challenge, a broken system that I can get at makes me think. > > AT one point Jay wEst owned this system, then a friend of mine, and > eventually I got it, FWIW. > > Simulators and Al K are your friend (+ simh for a lot of other stuff) > Jim -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 10:20:44 2013 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 11:20:44 -0400 Subject: Thin floppy replacement for DEC Multia Message-ID: I'm trying to get my Multia (did you know that's pronounced "Mull-tea-uh"?*) to netboot. Unfortunately, this means I have to update my SRM firmware. Unfortunately, this means I need my floppy. Unfortunately, my floppy makes a nasty noise. This is an unconventionally thin drive with a very thin ribbon cable. Does anyone have a spare they'd like to dispose of in my direction? * So says the audio_test routine in the SRM. From mardy at pernetics.com Sat Apr 13 13:23:24 2013 From: mardy at pernetics.com (Mardy Marshall) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 14:23:24 -0400 Subject: Selling my PDP8/e Message-ID: Please pardon the self serving post, but I thought that it would be of interest to this group. I've decided to sell my PDP8/e. I just don't have the time to devote to restoring it. The eBay listing is here: DEC PDP8/e Minicomputer If anybody has any questions about it, let me know. Thanks, -Mardy From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 16:08:23 2013 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 09:08:23 +1200 Subject: Warning: fake ebay 'second chance' offers Message-ID: Folks, I was an underbidder on the System/360 panel that recently went on ebay. This morning I received an obviously fake 'second chance' offer email. The interesting part is that the sender had clearly done some research, as ebay has not exposed your email address for many years, precisely to prevent scams like this. Since my ebay ID is 'corestore_org' it's not too hard to google and find an email address for me; they clearly did so, as the email correctly associated my email address with my account name, exactly as a genuine ebay email would. I don't think anyone here would be taken in by such for an instant, but be warned all the same; someone is being 'active' with scams tailored to our interests. The email claimed to originate from 'ebay at ebay.joe211.info' and sought a reply to 'jrengineer70 at gmail.com'. EDIT a google reveals several other scam emails using this email address. It never struck me before, but of course ebay doesn't even show underbidder *account names* any more; they splash them with asterisks and display them as x******x. Yet the scammer knew my full ebay ID, my correct email address, AND the amount of my underbid. Someone *must* have cracked the ebay database... Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Apr 14 13:14:23 2013 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:14:23 -0500 Subject: adm3 terminal on latest doctor who (cold war) episode In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> <516AB5C6.4070206@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <516AF1FF.6040805@ubanproductions.com> On 4/14/13 11:34 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 6:57 AM, Tom Uban wrote: >> the subject says it all, just saw it about 12 minutes into the >> episode, so i'm looking forward to what else there will be... > > Yep, saw that too yesterday and also thought it looked like an ADM-3A. > But didn't the one on the show have a keypad? More like an ADM-5? > I'll have to go back and look at the show again. > An ADM-5 it is. Missing the keypad's ENTER (return?) key. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 13:35:36 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:35:36 +0100 Subject: Warning: fake ebay 'second chance' offers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The ebay seller could have had a shill bidding you up also against ebay rules, he would therefore know your bids and email Dave Caroline On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Folks, I was an underbidder on the System/360 panel that recently went on > ebay. > > This morning I received an obviously fake 'second chance' offer email. > > The interesting part is that the sender had clearly done some research, as > ebay has not exposed your email address for many years, precisely to > prevent scams like this. Since my ebay ID is 'corestore_org' it's not too > hard to google and find an email address for me; they clearly did so, as > the email correctly associated my email address with my account name, > exactly as a genuine ebay email would. > > I don't think anyone here would be taken in by such for an instant, but be > warned all the same; someone is being 'active' with scams tailored to our > interests. The email claimed to originate from 'ebay at ebay.joe211.info' and > sought a reply to 'jrengineer70 at gmail.com'. > > EDIT a google reveals several other scam emails using this email address. > It never struck me before, but of course ebay doesn't even show underbidder > *account names* any more; they splash them with asterisks and display them > as x******x. Yet the scammer knew my full ebay ID, my correct email > address, AND the amount of my underbid. Someone *must* have cracked the > ebay database... > > Mike > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 14 13:47:49 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 14:47:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516A9172.507@compsys.to> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201304141847.OAA16873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I acknowledge that I am probably the only person on this list who > prefers an emulator for the PDP-11 over a real DEC CPU and hardware > associated with that solution. Unlikely. For some purposes, I would too. For other purposes, nothing but the real hardware will do. > However, I am extremely curious!!! What are the criteria which > determine if the original hardware is chosen over an emulator There are many. Their relative importance depends on the person, and in many cases the task as well. >From your phrasing (mostly in text which I cut), I get the impression you are mostly interested in factors which lead to choosing real hardware over an emulator, rather than the other way around. As you point out, an emulator is usually preferable from a purely software point of view - faster, better internal visibility, easier to fix bugs, etc. (Not always, though; while I haven't run into it with DEC hardware, I did see a case where a faster machine was substantially less useful: a game which depended on hardware speed for timing - running on a faster generation of hardware, it was unplayably fast.) There are at least two reasons that come to mind immediately. One is hardware compatability. If you have a device whose host interface consists of some half-dozen Unibus slots with custom backplane wiring (I used such a thing back in the '80s), emulators, in general, just don't cut it. (In principle there's no reason they couldn't. But if anyone makes a bridge allowing use of Qbus - or Unibus, or Sbus, or etc - hardware on a more modern system, I really want to know about it....) The other is emotional attachment. Personally, for example, I have a great fondness for the VAX, especially the MicroVAX-II, because I went through my larval phase on the VAX and, in particular, did a lot of low-level hackery on MicroVAX-IIs - I am one of the (apparently-)few people that have actually worked with KA630/KA620 multiprocessor uV2 machines, and, what's more, without just running stock DEC software (eg, VAXELN) on them. This doesn't mean I always insist on real hardware; indeed, I'm working on a KA-630 emulator right now. Others have mentioned other things, most of which strike me as at least partially overlapping with the "emotional attachment" reason, but not always/entirely. I suspect that this list concentrates people to whom the emotional factors are particularly relevant. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Apr 14 14:01:15 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:01:15 -0400 Subject: PDP 8 components file for spice In-Reply-To: <516992AC.7040906@jwsss.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7435C77A@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <516992AC.7040906@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <516AFCFB.1080409@verizon.net> On 04/13/2013 01:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > On 4/12/2013 5:22 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> At the flip chip level it would include definitions for DEC3639B (aka >> 2N3639), D662 (aka 1N645) and D664 (aka 1N3606). Pretty standard >> stuff to read the datasheets and make SPICE models. >> Replace DEC with 2n as is 2n3639. The D662 and friends, there are better part out there. generally its possible to do what they did and do it much better. >> A real design (or redesign) would pay extensive attention to >> margining just like the original designers did. SPICE can help verify >> to an extent, but all the details you actually need for design of >> RTL/DTL/flip-flop are in the 60's TI transistor design books. > Last night I tinkered with what was posted and I threw in some garbage > (actually for the diodes, I put in 1N4004 and for the transistor, a > 2N918) just to get spice to shut up and it proved I had the right sort > of syntax to satisfy the basic parser. > 1N4004, I assume thats for the power supply. That diode is so slow I use them as PIN attenuators at RF. The 1n914 is more suitable. Another good choice is the 1n5711. Those are leaded parts there are SMT parts worth looking at as well. > Thanks to Tim, I'll find better models now that I know what I'm > looking for. > > This is just an exercise to bring up a corner of what is out there > I've not touched to see how it works. This is a fairly simple > circuit, so should be possible to spot garbage in - garbage out > symptoms warned of by Alison. > Transistors out there use the most common types either leaded or SMT that have switching fast enough. Minimally 2n3904, 4401, 4124 or their complements SMT parts will have MBT prefix. Allison From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 14:12:38 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:12:38 +0100 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <201304141847.OAA16873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> <201304141847.OAA16873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <516AFFA6.2070202@gmail.com> On 14/04/2013 19:47, Mouse wrote: >> I acknowledge that I am probably the only person on this list who >> prefers an emulator for the PDP-11 over a real DEC CPU and hardware >> associated with that solution. > Unlikely. For some purposes, I would too. > > For other purposes, nothing but the real hardware will do. > Isn't that the fun of computing. There is a whole spectrum of what folks enjoy, and wouldn't the world be a boring place if it wasn't so. I am building an IBM1130 Emulation using an FPGA using Richard Stofers code., but I still run the IBM 1130 emulator..... From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 14 14:17:26 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:17:26 -0000 Subject: Hardware vs Simh References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> <201304141847.OAA16873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516AFFA6.2070202@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 14 Apr 2013, at 15:12, "Dave" wrote: > > On 14/04/2013 19:47, Mouse wrote: >>> I acknowledge that I am probably the only person on this list who >>> prefers an emulator for the PDP-11 over a real DEC CPU and hardware >>> associated with that solution. >> Unlikely. For some purposes, I would too. >> >> For other purposes, nothing but the real hardware will do. >> > Isn't that the fun of computing. There is a whole spectrum of what folks enjoy, and wouldn't the world be a boring place if it wasn't so. I am building an IBM1130 Emulation using an FPGA using Richard Stofers code., but I still run the IBM 1130 emulator?.. You should try a System/360 or 370 emulation, too. ;) That would be interesting to see how small it could be made now! :) From wilson at dbit.com Sun Apr 14 14:28:42 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:28:42 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <201304141847.OAA16873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> <201304141847.OAA16873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130414192842.GA12664@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 02:47:49PM -0400, Mouse wrote: >But if anyone makes a bridge allowing use of Qbus - or >Unibus, or Sbus, or etc - hardware on a more modern system, I really >want to know about it....) The Logical Company does (for Q and U I mean), but they're no longer available a la carte. And they're really too expensive for casual use anyway (US$3500 -- and the turnkey systems incorporating them are much more). Super, wicked, awesomely cool though! It's really neat having a mixture of real and emulated hardware on the same system. Plus you can have multiple busses (Q or U or a mixture) as long as they don't need to be able to do DMA to each other (only to PDP-11 memory). John Wilson D Bit From wlewisiii at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 14:38:36 2013 From: wlewisiii at gmail.com (William Barnett-Lewis) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 14:38:36 -0500 Subject: Hardware vs Simh Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 12:00 PM, wrote: (much snipped) You'd think by now I'd know better than to start a thread like this while on digest mode. First, thank you to everyone who replied. I got at least something out of every post so far and that's no small thing. I must have misread something along the way as I thought the /23 had separate I/D spaces. Good thing to have that correct now. I'd not mind getting one to run it for it's own sake but to get it thinking it could do something it couldn't would be much more annoying. Thank you to the pointers to additional docs - the field guide as especially nice to find as I'm still learning my way around the DEC module names. The chassis information was quite helpful as well. As for why, well... I graduated HS in 1982 & took a short detour into the Army so I missed a lot of the "glory days" of some of the things on this list. I started with micros and as a student the closest I got allowed to the Vax was a login prompt. The first (non DOS,OS/2,Windows) software environment I really got to know well was Unix and then learning of Lisp & LispM's. These days emulators are fun, capable and perfect for most home users - I certainly would not have the room or power budget for a CADR or PDP-10 or 11/780 in the basement! I respect those who can but, alas, I'm not able to do that in my current rental But I do have the room and enough of a toy budget to slowly put together a classic PDP-11 system of the later /73, /83 or /93 type & run the kind of software I'm familiar with on it. Might even try to see if I can back port Franz lisp and to it from the 4.2 distribution just to give myself a reason for it. Ultimately I'd like to have a small collection of real classic hardware - a Symbolics XL1200, a Vax (or Vaxstation) 4000 & a PDP-11. I'll work on that last one for now and deal with emulation for the rest :) Thanks again to everyone, William -- Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance like no-one is watching. Alex White From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Apr 14 14:55:31 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:55:31 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516B09B3.6010304@verizon.net> On 04/13/2013 07:13 PM, William Barnett-Lewis wrote: > I've been learning about the PDP-11 lately thanks to the wonder that > is Simh, running various software on it and generally having fun. I > don't have any purpose other than that at this time. I've been running > everything I can get my hands on though I find, given my background, > tastes and biases, that it's usually either Unix Version 7 or, > especially, 2.11BSD that I'm firing up and exploring rather than, say > the more DEC traditional RSTS/E. > > That said, I've been wondering what would be different (aside from > noise & heat ;) about running 2.11BSD on hardware rather than in Simh > on my increasingly decrepit Dell C640 running Xubuntu. Logically I > should spend the money on a new intel based laptop but what's the fun > in that? > > But then that turns on the question - is there even a cheap PDP-11 > that can run 2.11BSD? I don't need a speed demon but how small is too > small vs big enough? > > Let me see if I understand correctly what I would need: > > A BA23 or BA123 chassis. Would others work as well? > A CPU with separate I/D space. 11/23, 11/53, 11/73, 11/83 or 11/93 > would work with the Q-bus chassis above. the 11/53 is a system designation. the CPUs are F11 (11/23), J11 (11/73, 83, 93). For separate I&D any of the J11 cpus. There is V2.11 that runs on 11/23. > 1mb to 4mb memory, 1mb is absolute minimum for 2.11 BSD & 4mb is > highly desirable. Memory is generally easy. > Disk controller - though more expensive, sanity really says I should > find a SCSI controller like RQZX1, Emulex UC-7 or CMD CQD-220. I have > old SCSI disks; ESDI & the like? Not so much ... > A RQDX3 & RX50 or TQK70 & TK70 would probably be in the 'nice to > have' category as well. > DELQA ethernet controller Disk is key, anything over 10-20MB will do, tape not so much. > Would this work? What are the going rates for hobbyists (rather than > resellers to those with production equipment)? Are there any, hmm, > less expensive bits here or there? Hobbyists pay more, always been true. Usual reasons is they don't know what they want and even more don't know the systems. Resellers only care about selling not helping. Cheap is by hunting for systems people are junking/offering or trying to get off the premises. Dumpster diving is a good way too. > This is mostly a thought experiment as I don't really have the > disposable cash right now for the various parts right now. OTOH, I > find the process of learning more about the hardware, what would be > required and how it functions, to give me a better understanding of > what I'm doing with the emulator. > > Thanks to all here (the 11/23 thread has been of great value to me) > and to bitsavers ;) and all the other fun resources out there. > The biggest difference between SIMH is that it allows for software study and preservation. The hardware is required to understand the systems and all it takes to make, maintain and run said software on them. The hardware based skills are dying very fast. Allison From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 15:04:38 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 21:04:38 +0100 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> <201304141847.OAA16873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516AFFA6.2070202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516B0BD6.90600@gmail.com> On 14/04/2013 20:17, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > On 14 Apr 2013, at 15:12, "Dave" wrote: > >> On 14/04/2013 19:47, Mouse wrote: >>>> I acknowledge that I am probably the only person on this list who >>>> prefers an emulator for the PDP-11 over a real DEC CPU and hardware >>>> associated with that solution. >>> Unlikely. For some purposes, I would too. >>> >>> For other purposes, nothing but the real hardware will do. >>> >> Isn't that the fun of computing. There is a whole spectrum of what folks enjoy, and wouldn't the world be a boring place if it wasn't so. I am building an IBM1130 Emulation using an FPGA using Richard Stofers code., but I still run the IBM 1130 emulator?.. > You should try a System/360 or 370 emulation, too. ;) Laurence Wilkinson has already done that for the 360/30. It will fit on the same board as the 1130. http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/vhdl/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=walWU2MQ2OM He has posted on here and he is working on getting a real Selectric connected as the console. There are also implementions in FPGA of several other CPUs, including PDP/8 and PDP/11 (but not sure how complete the PDP/11 ones are). Some like Laurences are "gate acurate" emulations and others like Richards are "Behaviourial" so a kind of cross between software and hardware emulation. > > That would be interesting to see how small it could be made now! :) > > You can't really shrink the Selectric very much. It would be nice to do a 360/67 and run MTS though. My next project is going to be a Ferrantti Pegasus .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferranti_Pegasus but what I would really like for this are some of the GPO style switchs.... (They are GPO style because the British Post Office rang the telephone system in the UK for many years).... Dave G4UGM From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 14 13:57:35 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:57:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: from "William Barnett-Lewis" at Apr 13, 13 06:13:10 pm Message-ID: > That said, I've been wondering what would be different (aside from > noise & heat ;) about running 2.11BSD on hardware rather than in Simh > on my increasingly decrepit Dell C640 running Xubuntu. Logically I > should spend the money on a new intel based laptop but what's the fun > in that? I think you need to consider what you are interested in doing. >From what I hear (I have no first-hand experience), Smih is a very good simulator. If what you want to do is run the old OSes and other software, it will be fie. But the reason I don;'t use it, (or any other simulator for that matter) is that I am primarily a hardware hacker. I want to be able to conenct my logic analyser to the output of the ALU,, That is something you can't do with a simualtr running on a PC. In fact it's soemthing you can't do with a microprocesosr-based machien either. And for that reason, my love is the older Unibus PDP11s, IIRC, the CPU in all Qbus machiens is a custom chipset (F11, J11, etc). On the machines I like, the CPU is half a dozen boards paccked full of simple logic ICs. I think my 11/45 (which AFAIK can't run BSD 2.11) has over 1000 ICs in the CPU. Lovely :-) Another good reason to rtn the real hardware is to use peripherals that don't exist for PCs. Mass storage, termianlas, etc do. But I don;'t think SimH can simualter ADCs nad DACs conencted to real-world devices. And of course, you might waht to read the real PDP11 disk packs, tapes, etc. That's harder to do on a PC. I find the real hardare _much_ easier to maintain than a PC, but then again I am a hardawre type who wants to follow a scheamtic and change 1 transistor (or whatever), not swap a board. I ampretty sure htat SimH running on a moder-insh system will eb a lot faster than any real PDP11, though. Ulitmately it's up to you. Running the real hardare is fun, at least for me. But it will not be as anjoyable for some people, I think -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 14 14:05:13 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:05:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 14, 13 00:23:39 am Message-ID: > There is more to vintage computing than just software!! Of course thee is. There's also more to running a classic computr than jsut the CPU. You should run demountable hard drivesd and learn how to replace heads and realign them (I've done it, and enjoyed it). You should run ASR33 terminals and know how to striap and rebuild one. And so on. But I would also argue that nobody (or at least very few people) wil leb equally interested in hardware and software. If you are a hardware person, you will want to ru nthe real hardawre, you will want to laod the alignment pack and connect the 'scope to the read preamplifer. You will want to have a logic analyser conencted ot the CPU microcode address bus and wacch how it executes machine instructions. Conversely, you might be more interested in understnadin the OS, or writing programs for it, or sorting out the remaining bugs, or improvinge the OSes, or. And in that case, evn though it goes totally agaisnt what _I_ like doing, I see no reason not to use a simulator. Ulimately this is a hobby (at least for most of us). IMHO, the 2 main requirements of a hobby are that you enjoy it and that it doesn't have an adverse affect on otehrs not conencted with hobby. And thus IMHO, it is a personal choice which aspects of 'classic computing' you want to enjoy. There is no 'rgith and wrong' All others can do is explain what they do, and why. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 14 14:14:00 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:14:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516A9172.507@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Apr 14, 13 07:22:26 am Message-ID: > I acknowledge that I am probably the only person on this list > who prefers an emulator for the PDP-11 over a real DEC > CPU and hardware associated with that solution. > > However, I am extremely curious!!! What are the criteria which > determine if the original hardware is chosen over an emulator > which runs 150 times faster - assuming at the very least that > choosing the emulator is equal or less expensive than the > original hardware AND running under the emulator also > supports all the other computer requirements for that user. actually, I suspect that the total amount I have spent on my real DEC PDP11s over the years (getting the machines, buying spares, etc) has eben a lot less than the amount I would have spent on `repairing' (boarfswapping) and upgrading a PC over that time. I cna think of reasons ot ru nthe real hardaware. The first is the obvious one that you jsut enjoy it. I can think of a do0zne things that otehr people do and enjoy that I personally would hate. But that doesn't mean I think they're wrogn to do said things. The seocnd is that the real hardware does let yuou do things -- and learn things -- that the simualtor does not. Th third is that there may be some peripheral for the real hardare that cannot be simuated, or that the simualtor does not support.My 11/45 systme has multiple ADCs, DACs, user ports, etc. Now, such thigns are availabel for PCs, I know, but I didn't think that SimH supported them. Maybe I am wrong, does it provide senible emulators of an AD11-K, an AA11-K, etc? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 14 15:06:12 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 21:06:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516AE997.8060001@gewt.net> from "Cory Smelosky" at Apr 14, 13 05:38:31 pm Message-ID: > Understandable. I, however find failures in older gear > fascinating...you can actually fix them a lot of the time. ;) They're > also a great learning experience as you can actually get at the components! So do I. I much prefer to diagnose and rpeair faults logically, aomethign you cna do wit hthe older machines. I am currnetly having a conversation with a guy in the Netherlands who is repairing a machine of a simialr fintage (not a PDP11). He's borrowed a logic analyser and we're goign thoguh it a the level of 'Well, in this microisntrucionm, the program counter is fed ot one inptu of the LAU, a constand 1 is fed to the other intput, so as to add 1 to the PC ot increment it. Now let's see if that's what's going on...' (OK, it's not quite that, the machine in question is bit-serial...) HE seems ot be loving it. Being able to see how registers are sleected, ho data flows from one ot anotehr, and so on . > > I just like a challenge, a broken system that I can get at makes me think. I hate t osay this, but has a hardware hacker, half the time once I've got a system working and running the OS, I lose interest in it and find soemthing else to wrok on :-). And then, of course, go back to thwroking amchine when I have some new peripheral to add to it. -tony From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Apr 14 15:13:40 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:13:40 -0400 Subject: Available S-100 PCBs Message-ID: <003701ce394c$9afa5d80$d0ef1880$@YAHOO.COM> Hi, sorry had to update the quantities with accurate numbers Good news! There are several new and reordered S-100 PCBs available! The S-100 68K CPU boards finally came in so there are about 17 available. There are 35 of the S-100 IDE V2 reorder PCBs and about 19 of the new S-100 bus terminator/prototyping board PCBs. There are seven (7) of the S-100 LAVA PCBs available and two (2) of the S-100 regular prototyping board PCBs available. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/68000%20Board/68K%20CPU%20Board .htm http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/IDE%20Board/My%20IDE%20Card.htm http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20bus%20t erminator http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20regular %20prototyping%20board The S-100 PCBs cost the same as before ($20 each). However due to unforeseen extreme price increases in shipping by USPS I am forced to change shipping costs. Shipping in the US will be $3 for a single PCB and $2 for each additional PCB. Shipping internationally will be $10 for a single PCB and $3 for each additional PCB. This is for the bare basics USPS first class postage with no tracking or insurance. The builder assumes all risk of delivery as per usual arrangement. I apologize for the large price increase on shipping but this is out of my hands. The USPS is in dire financial trouble and is raising prices on shipping. It affects us all and is most unfortunate. These boards are provided "at cost" so there is no margin to absorb any shipping price increases. I have to pass them along. If you would like one or more S-100 PCBs please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, if you would like to help out this all-volunteer project please get one or more of the S-100 LAVA PCBs. Also the S-100 regular prototyping board PCBs. These PCBs are the oldest ones and them sitting around on a shelf does no one any good. I'd like these to go to a hobbyist who would get some enjoyment from these fun to build and use boards. Thanks in advance. From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 14 15:19:59 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:19:59 -0000 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> <201304141847.OAA16873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516AFFA6.2070202@gmail.com> <516B0BD6.90600@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 14 Apr 2013, at 16:04, "Dave" wrote: > > On 14/04/2013 20:17, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> >> On 14 Apr 2013, at 15:12, "Dave" wrote: >> >>> On 14/04/2013 19:47, Mouse wrote: >>>>> I acknowledge that I am probably the only person on this list who >>>>> prefers an emulator for the PDP-11 over a real DEC CPU and hardware >>>>> associated with that solution. >>>> Unlikely. For some purposes, I would too. >>>> >>>> For other purposes, nothing but the real hardware will do. >>>> >>> Isn't that the fun of computing. There is a whole spectrum of what folks enjoy, and wouldn't the world be a boring place if it wasn't so. I am building an IBM1130 Emulation using an FPGA using Richard Stofers code., but I still run the IBM 1130 emulator?.. >> You should try a System/360 or 370 emulation, too. ;) > > Laurence Wilkinson has already done that for the 360/30. It will fit on the same board as the 1130. Nice! > > http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/vhdl/ > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=walWU2MQ2OM > > He has posted on here and he is working on getting a real Selectric connected as the console. There are also implementions in FPGA of several other CPUs, including PDP/8 and PDP/11 (but not sure how complete the PDP/11 ones are). Some like Laurences are "gate acurate" emulations and others like Richards are "Behaviourial" so a kind of cross between software and hardware emulation. Very interesting! > >> >> That would be interesting to see how small it could be made now! :) >> >> > You can't really shrink the Selectric very much. It would be nice to do a 360/67 and run MTS though. My next project is going to be a Ferrantti Pegasus .. That sounds like a fun project. :) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferranti_Pegasus > > but what I would really like for this are some of the GPO style switchs.... (They are GPO style because the British Post Office rang the telephone system in the UK for many years).... > > Dave > G4UGM From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 14 15:23:58 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 21:23:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516AFFA6.2070202@gmail.com> from "Dave" at Apr 14, 13 08:12:38 pm Message-ID: > Isn't that the fun of computing. There is a whole spectrum of what folks > enjoy, and wouldn't the world be a boring place if it wasn't so. I am Well, that's certainly true of _classic_ computing... And it's great!. This is a very wide hobby, with all sorts of ways to enjoy. The fact that different people enjoy differnt aspects doens't mean that some are right and soem are wrong, or that some are 'better' than others. It means they enjoy different things, nothing more. _I_ can't see the appeal of running an emulator for some 1980's home computer and then writing programs in BASIC, when there are much better languages and debugging systems available for PCs. But the fact that _I_ can't see the appeal is a problem with me, not with those that enjoy it. I am quite sure that there are pletny of people who can't se the appeal of staring at the 'scope and logic analyser for horse. Of burnign your fingers on an overheating part. On spending a few hours in the grrage egettign shoered in oil and mettla turnings as you make a new part for the printing terminal. But that's what _I_ enjoy... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 14 15:37:35 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:37:35 -0400 Subject: 11/53, was Re: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516B09B3.6010304@verizon.net> References: <516B09B3.6010304@verizon.net> Message-ID: <516B138F.6090401@neurotica.com> On 04/14/2013 03:55 PM, allison wrote: >> A BA23 or BA123 chassis. Would others work as well? >> A CPU with separate I/D space. 11/23, 11/53, 11/73, 11/83 or 11/93 >> would work with the Q-bus chassis above. > > the 11/53 is a system designation. the CPUs are F11 (11/23), > J11 (11/73, 83, 93). Nope...11/53 is a J11 on a *completely different* CPU board, which includes onboard memory. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 14 15:44:20 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:44:20 -0000 Subject: Hardware vs Simh References: <516AE997.8060001@gewt.net> <> Message-ID: On 14 Apr 2013, at 16:06, "Tony Duell" wrote: > >> Understandable. I, however find failures in older gear >> fascinating...you can actually fix them a lot of the time. ;) They're >> also a great learning experience as you can actually get at the components! > > So do I. I much prefer to diagnose and rpeair faults logically, aomethign > you cna do wit hthe older machines. Exactly! You can actually get at the individual parts! Everything isn't 200% integrated. ;) > > I am currnetly having a conversation with a guy in the Netherlands who is > repairing a machine of a simialr fintage (not a PDP11). He's borrowed a > logic analyser and we're goign thoguh it a the level of 'Well, in this > microisntrucionm, the program counter is fed ot one inptu of the LAU, a > constand 1 is fed to the other intput, so as to add 1 to the PC ot > increment it. Now let's see if that's what's going on...' (OK, it's not > quite that, the machine in question is bit-serial...) > > HE seems ot be loving it. Being able to see how registers are sleected, > ho data flows from one ot anotehr, and so on . Very interesting! I don't have too much low-level hardware knowledge (yet. I intend to! I'm still young.) but that still sounds extremely fun. > >> >> I just like a challenge, a broken system that I can get at makes me think. > > I hate t osay this, but has a hardware hacker, half the time once I've > got a system working and running the OS, I lose interest in it and find > soemthing else to wrok on :-). And then, of course, go back to thwroking > amchine when I have some new peripheral to add to it. Yeah. Fixing the problem is a large part of the fun. ;) I don't mind fixing the occasional software problem too though. ;) > > -tony From cclist at sytse.net Sun Apr 14 15:55:41 2013 From: cclist at sytse.net (cclist at sytse.net) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 22:55:41 +0200 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <516B0BD6.90600@gmail.com> References: <516B0BD6.90600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9169276.ldpx7PyGGZ@i5.sytse.net> On Sunday, April 14, 2013 21:04:38 Dave wrote: > There are also implementions in FPGA of > several other CPUs, including PDP/8 and PDP/11 (but not sure how > complete the PDP/11 ones are). My fpga PDP11 is very complete. You can run all the historic operating systems on it, including 2.11BSD. And you can even hook it up to ethernet. No more need for a pc to simulate. Read about it at http://pdp2011.sytse.net/ From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 14 16:07:06 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 21:07:06 -0000 Subject: 11/53, was Re: Hardware vs Simh References: <516B09B3.6010304@verizon.net> <516B138F.6090401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <62FBD5DF-7625-454A-B86B-67CFC7E24ECC@gewt.net> On 14 Apr 2013, at 16:37, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > On 04/14/2013 03:55 PM, allison wrote: >>> A BA23 or BA123 chassis. Would others work as well? >>> A CPU with separate I/D space. 11/23, 11/53, 11/73, 11/83 or 11/93 >>> would work with the Q-bus chassis above. > > >> the 11/53 is a system designation. the CPUs are F11 (11/23), >> J11 (11/73, 83, 93). > > Nope...11/53 is a J11 on a *completely different* CPU board, which includes onboard memory. Now I want to start a discussion on the timeline of when memory became?"onboard"/integrated for some reason?I'm curious as to who tried it first. ;) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 14 16:21:18 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 21:21:18 -0000 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) References: <516B0BD6.90600@gmail.com> <9169276.ldpx7PyGGZ@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <5B22F2A9-2FB3-4161-BE3C-6263A043F587@gewt.net> On 14 Apr 2013, at 16:55, "cclist" wrote: > > On Sunday, April 14, 2013 21:04:38 Dave wrote: > >> There are also implementions in FPGA of >> several other CPUs, including PDP/8 and PDP/11 (but not sure how >> complete the PDP/11 ones are). > > My fpga PDP11 is very complete. You can run all the historic operating systems > on it, including 2.11BSD. And you can even hook it up to ethernet. No more > need for a pc to simulate. I bet I could connect it directly to my VT420, too. ;) > > Read about it at http://pdp2011.sytse.net/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 14 16:24:51 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:24:51 -0600 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <9169276.ldpx7PyGGZ@i5.sytse.net> References: <516B0BD6.90600@gmail.com> <9169276.ldpx7PyGGZ@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <516B1EA3.4060406@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/14/2013 2:55 PM, cclist at sytse.net wrote: > On Sunday, April 14, 2013 21:04:38 Dave wrote: > >> There are also implementions in FPGA of >> several other CPUs, including PDP/8 and PDP/11 (but not sure how >> complete the PDP/11 ones are). > > My fpga PDP11 is very complete. You can run all the historic operating systems > on it, including 2.11BSD. And you can even hook it up to ethernet. No more > need for a pc to simulate. > > Read about it at http://pdp2011.sytse.net/ > Got one for sale? Ben. From cclist at sytse.net Sun Apr 14 16:48:08 2013 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 23:48:08 +0200 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <516B1EA3.4060406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <9169276.ldpx7PyGGZ@i5.sytse.net> <516B1EA3.4060406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> On Sunday, April 14, 2013 15:24:51 ben wrote: > On 4/14/2013 2:55 PM, cclist at sytse.net wrote: > > On Sunday, April 14, 2013 21:04:38 Dave wrote: > >> There are also implementions in FPGA of > >> several other CPUs, including PDP/8 and PDP/11 (but not sure how > >> complete the PDP/11 ones are). > > > > My fpga PDP11 is very complete. You can run all the historic operating > > systems on it, including 2.11BSD. And you can even hook it up to > > ethernet. No more need for a pc to simulate. > > > > Read about it at http://pdp2011.sytse.net/ > > Got one for sale? > Ben. You can buy the boards from Digilent or Terasic - or their resellers. That's http://www.digilentinc.com/ and http://www.terasic.com/ . Which is best depends a bit on what you want to do with it - but the de0 from terasic is a nice board to start out with. And the nexys2-1200 has the advantage that the ethernet pmod from Digilent can be plugged in to it - and, if you want the Ethernet stuff, you'd only need to deal with one vendor. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 17:09:41 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 23:09:41 +0100 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> References: <9169276.ldpx7PyGGZ@i5.sytse.net> <516B1EA3.4060406@jetnet.ab.ca> <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <516B2925.601@gmail.com> On 14/04/2013 22:48, Sytse van Slooten wrote: > On Sunday, April 14, 2013 15:24:51 ben wrote: >> On 4/14/2013 2:55 PM, cclist at sytse.net wrote: >>> On Sunday, April 14, 2013 21:04:38 Dave wrote: >>>> There are also implementions in FPGA of >>>> several other CPUs, including PDP/8 and PDP/11 (but not sure how >>>> complete the PDP/11 ones are). >>> My fpga PDP11 is very complete. You can run all the historic operating >>> systems on it, including 2.11BSD. And you can even hook it up to >>> ethernet. No more need for a pc to simulate. >>> >>> Read about it at http://pdp2011.sytse.net/ >> Got one for sale? >> Ben. > You can buy the boards from Digilent or Terasic - or their resellers. That's > http://www.digilentinc.com/ and http://www.terasic.com/ . Which is best > depends a bit on what you want to do with it - but the de0 from terasic is a > nice board to start out with. And the nexys2-1200 has the advantage that the > ethernet pmod from Digilent can be plugged in to it - and, if you want the > Ethernet stuff, you'd only need to deal with one vendor. I have the Nexys-2 which I got from Farnell, who I believe trade as Element14 in the US, but buying direct from Digilent looks OK. If you can find a tame student you may also be able to get one at an academic discount. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 14 17:31:05 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:31:05 -0600 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> References: <9169276.ldpx7PyGGZ@i5.sytse.net> <516B1EA3.4060406@jetnet.ab.ca> <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <516B2E29.2000204@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/14/2013 3:48 PM, Sytse van Slooten wrote: > On Sunday, April 14, 2013 15:24:51 ben wrote: >> On 4/14/2013 2:55 PM, cclist at sytse.net wrote: >>> On Sunday, April 14, 2013 21:04:38 Dave wrote: >>>> There are also implementions in FPGA of >>>> several other CPUs, including PDP/8 and PDP/11 (but not sure how >>>> complete the PDP/11 ones are). >>> >>> My fpga PDP11 is very complete. You can run all the historic operating >>> systems on it, including 2.11BSD. And you can even hook it up to >>> ethernet. No more need for a pc to simulate. >>> >>> Read about it at http://pdp2011.sytse.net/ >> >> Got one for sale? >> Ben. > > You can buy the boards from Digilent or Terasic - or their resellers. That's > http://www.digilentinc.com/ and http://www.terasic.com/ . Which is best > depends a bit on what you want to do with it - but the de0 from terasic is a > nice board to start out with. And the nexys2-1200 has the advantage that the > ethernet pmod from Digilent can be plugged in to it - and, if you want the > Ethernet stuff, you'd only need to deal with one vendor. > Can you write up a complete shopping list needed for a PDP-11 system from scratch? This looks more fun to play with than the other systems talked about on this list. Ben. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 17:42:01 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:42:01 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <201304141847.OAA16873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> <201304141847.OAA16873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Apr 14, 2013, at 2:47 PM, Mouse wrote: > One is hardware compatability. If you have a device whose host > interface consists of some half-dozen Unibus slots with custom > backplane wiring (I used such a thing back in the '80s), emulators, in > general, just don't cut it. (In principle there's no reason they > couldn't. But if anyone makes a bridge allowing use of Qbus - or > Unibus, or Sbus, or etc - hardware on a more modern system, I really > want to know about it....) Oh, that absolutely exists, pretty much for that exact purpose. http://www.comwaretech.com/PDP-11/DEC-PDP-11-emulator.html Probably expensive as hell, but it's meant for people who need the existing hardware to work because the cost or other risk of engineering a replacement system is even greater. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 18:07:57 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:07:57 -0400 Subject: Qbus PDP-11s (was Re: 11/53, was Re: Hardware vs Simh) Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 5:07 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Now I want to start a discussion on the timeline of when memory became?"onboard"/integrated for some reason?I'm curious as to who tried it first. ;) The KD11-F (M7264) had memory and the CPU on one board, in 1975, IIRC. -ethan From cclist at sytse.net Sun Apr 14 18:19:36 2013 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 01:19:36 +0200 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <516B2E29.2000204@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> <516B2E29.2000204@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1398558.04TL07KDH7@i5.sytse.net> On Sunday, April 14, 2013 16:31:05 ben wrote: > On 4/14/2013 3:48 PM, Sytse van Slooten wrote: > > On Sunday, April 14, 2013 15:24:51 ben wrote: > >> On 4/14/2013 2:55 PM, cclist at sytse.net wrote: > >>> On Sunday, April 14, 2013 21:04:38 Dave wrote: > >>>> There are also implementions in FPGA of > >>>> several other CPUs, including PDP/8 and PDP/11 (but not sure how > >>>> complete the PDP/11 ones are). > >>> > >>> My fpga PDP11 is very complete. You can run all the historic operating > >>> systems on it, including 2.11BSD. And you can even hook it up to > >>> ethernet. No more need for a pc to simulate. > >>> > >>> Read about it at http://pdp2011.sytse.net/ > >> > >> Got one for sale? > >> Ben. > > > > You can buy the boards from Digilent or Terasic - or their resellers. > > That's http://www.digilentinc.com/ and http://www.terasic.com/ . Which is > > best depends a bit on what you want to do with it - but the de0 from > > terasic is a nice board to start out with. And the nexys2-1200 has the > > advantage that the ethernet pmod from Digilent can be plugged in to it - > > and, if you want the Ethernet stuff, you'd only need to deal with one > > vendor. > > Can you write up a complete shopping list needed for a PDP-11 system > from scratch? This looks more fun to play with than the other systems > talked about on this list. > Ben. What you would need is an FPGA board, one or more SD cards (not SDHC or newer, but the 'old' type), and optionally a little board with the enc424j600 chip from Microchips on it to allow for a DEUNA-type ethernet controller. The de0 board from Terasic has the advantage that it already has an SD card connector onboard. But, if you want to add the ethernet stuff, for instance by connecting a PMODNIC100 from Digilent, you'd have to wire it - look at the pictures on my site how that looks. The Nexys2-1200 board (the 'normal' board is has a -500 FPGA part on it, which is too small really) would in comparison need a PMODSD to connect the sd card, and optionally again the PMODNIC100. There are lots of other boards as well, each with their specific strong points and disadvantages - but, these two are the most obvious choices, and both will easily run a PDP-11. Whichever board you choose, you will need the tool chains from either Altera or Xilinx. These are ~~4Gb downloads - and also somewhat complicated pieces of software to install and work with, so expect some trial and error. In theory, it should be possible to run the same VHDL on other brands of FPGA as well - but I never tried. I do provide bitstreams, ie. pre-compiled binaries of the FPGA configuration, for some of the most basic variants. You still need to use the toolchains from the vendors to program these into the FPGA. And if you want to have a configuration that I don't provide a bitstream for, then you'd have to change the top level source and recompile - in most cases, that's not more complicated than changing a parameter on a macro, but it will require some time to find out how that works. The sd card (as I said) need to be the 'normal' type SD card, so anything larger than 2Gb will probably not work - those are likely to be SDHC or newer types. Currently, my VHDL design cannot cope with that. Also, there are probably some mistakes in the initialization sequence that I use to start the card, that sometimes cause cards other than Sandisk-branded ones not to be recognized - so, if you don't have any lying around, a Sandisk one is preferrable. And you'd also need something to write sd cards with - so, a way to connect an sd card to your pc. Any card reader will do. Then comes the detail about the console. The vhdl can be configured such that a simple console terminal is included on the fpga; in that case you would need a basic VGA screen capable of 640x480, and a keyboard with a PS2 connector. It's also possible to connect any basic terminal - or emulator - to the rs232 port of the Nexys2-1200 board, or wire up the solder connectors of the de0 board to do the same. Or use a PMODRS232. Anyway, to go back to the shopping list question, basically where it begins is the question of Altera vs. Xilinx. I tend to like Altera's stuff better, but that might change with the next release. Also, I think that Terasic's boards are produced to much higher standards. But - Digilent can get you all the things you need, and with Terasic you'd still need to find a source for the enc424j600 chip if you wanted Ethernet. Both vendors, btw, deliver directly and very reliably so. I think you can also get their products from Digikey and the like. Hope that's a clear enough shopping list for you :-) From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 18:40:40 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:40:40 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <1398558.04TL07KDH7@i5.sytse.net> References: <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> <516B2E29.2000204@jetnet.ab.ca> <1398558.04TL07KDH7@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <6CB68859-9860-43F9-80F2-BD208E41990B@gmail.com> On Apr 14, 2013, at 19:19, Sytse van Slooten wrote: >>> You can buy the boards from Digilent or Terasic - or their resellers. >>> That's http://www.digilentinc.com/ and http://www.terasic.com/ . Which is >>> best depends a bit on what you want to do with it - but the de0 from >>> terasic is a nice board to start out with. And the nexys2-1200 has the >>> advantage that the ethernet pmod from Digilent can be plugged in to it - >>> and, if you want the Ethernet stuff, you'd only need to deal with one >>> vendor. >> >> Can you write up a complete shopping list needed for a PDP-11 system >> from scratch? This looks more fun to play with than the other systems >> talked about on this list. >> Ben. > > What you would need is an FPGA board, one or more SD cards (not SDHC or newer, > but the 'old' type), and optionally a little board with the enc424j600 chip > from Microchips on it to allow for a DEUNA-type ethernet controller. > > The de0 board from Terasic has the advantage that it already has an SD card > connector onboard. But, if you want to add the ethernet stuff, for instance by > connecting a PMODNIC100 from Digilent, you'd have to wire it - look at the > pictures on my site how that looks. I really like my two DE1s, though they're a little long in the tooth at this point. They're great to play with, lots of hobbyist-friendly interfaces (switches, buttons, 7-segment displays, VGA out and a serial port, plus the SD slot). No Ethernet, but they're also only $150 in the US. The DE2 has Ethernet and more goodies, but it's somewhat more expensive. I know Sytse has a load for the DE1, at least. - Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 18:53:12 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:53:12 -0500 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <1663FDEB-7A74-4FD7-9C6F-A6C685376945@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> <1663FDEB-7A74-4FD7-9C6F-A6C685376945@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516B4168.30904@gmail.com> On 04/12/2013 02:24 PM, David Riley wrote: > The PSU is probably pretty similar to an ATX supply in that the > motherboard pulls a pin high or low to soft-switch the supply on and > off. I'm having trouble finding a pinout for the 6400's PSU Just an update on this - with the 5x00 bus pinouts that you gave me, I was able to confirm that the 6400 is the same (at least as far as the PSU signals) - so thanks for the link. Unfortunately, it's also confirmed that I've got a dead PSU; I've got no +5V on the standby/TRKL line at all. I've done a few basic checks for open diodes, transistors etc. on the AC input side, and things seem OK there. I think I have a spare ATX PSU from a PC somewhere, so I may try that if I can contrive something to marry up the different power-on signal (or I suppose I could just hit the power switch on the back of the Apple and then turn the PSU on manually, just for testing purposes) - there's probably no point my spending time fixing the Apple's PSU if the system board is toast anyway... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 14 19:01:01 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:01:01 -0700 Subject: Warning: fake ebay 'second chance' offers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516B433D.6090102@sydex.com> The same guy seems to be popping up in other places as well: http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=886180 I'd let eBay know that they'd better do something to plug the leak, because clearly, they've got ont. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 14 19:06:18 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:06:18 -0600 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <1398558.04TL07KDH7@i5.sytse.net> References: <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> <516B2E29.2000204@jetnet.ab.ca> <1398558.04TL07KDH7@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <516B447A.8030206@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/14/2013 5:19 PM, Sytse van Slooten wrote: > Both vendors, btw, deliver directly and very reliably so. I think you can also > get their products from Digikey and the like. > > Hope that's a clear enough shopping list for you :-) Don't have a SD card or reader here. I have saved the email for a late summer project. Ben. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 19:12:54 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:12:54 -0400 Subject: Warning: fake ebay 'second chance' offers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Someone *must* have cracked the > ebay database... A snipe service database also could have been compromised. It seems to me that they get your Ebay name and password for the sniping process - but if someone gets their hands on that data, they can get into sellers accounts and see who the underbidders are for higher ticket items. My account was hacked years ago - what a pain in the ass. No damage, other than being out of business for a week ro so. These crooks are clever... -- Will From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 19:30:16 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:30:16 -0700 Subject: Warning: fake ebay 'second chance' offers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516B4A18.4050900@gmail.com> On 4/14/2013 5:12 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Someone *must* have cracked the >> ebay database... > A snipe service database also could have been compromised. It seems to > me that they get your Ebay name and password for the sniping process - > but if someone gets their hands on that data, they can get into > sellers accounts and see who the underbidders are for higher ticket > items. > > Could be a seller using another account to get more money. Use the other account to bid some crazy high amount. Cancel the the sale then contact the person who lost and offer it at their max bid. Always get max bid that way. The fact this guy seems to always use the same email address is odd for someone just trying to straight up rip people off. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 14 19:35:59 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 02:35:59 +0200 Subject: OT: 1000 year DVD storage In-Reply-To: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> References: <5148D084.1090609@sydex.com> Message-ID: <516B4B6F.4090801@xs4all.nl> On 19-mrt-2013 21:54, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The M-Disc claims 1,000 year permanency. > > http://www.mdisc.com/ > > Anyone have experience with these? > > --Chuck > > (wondering if we'll be able to find a 1,000 year old DVD player) Two M-DISC drives, by LG, but no media (yet). I wonder, although, I doubt I'll live long enough to say whether it's a scam or not... - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 14 19:40:06 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 02:40:06 +0200 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> On 22-feb-2013 20:09, Murray McCullough wrote: > Should we be surprised at how and why classic-computing, this site in > particular, is so popular amongst the hobbyist/experimenter community > today? There is a modicum of control that?s lacking in today?s > computing, or computing-like, technology. Granted it?s ?easier? to > use/employ, nearly by all; everything, or almost, done without > consumer input but turning the infernal beast on. Or, maybe not with > the ?intelligence agents? been employed today! And even our computers > I dare say going this route. Automatic updates, etc., etc., > happen?Making a computer or otherwise do what you want it to do, > rather than say an Apple or something akin, is fast becoming a thing > of the past. Freedom. Let?s hope it?s not pass? either! If you ask me, computing itself is something of the past. What is actually 'computed' nowadays on the tons of worthless 'smart phones' and other nonsensical wastes of cycles and electricity? I'm not even near as old as some of those posting here and I'm already bittered (or was, certainly, more so a while back). I've come to accept that it's a consumerist culture where everything is disposable. (In this supposedly 'more and more' "green" world.) So, I've started not to care much and not attach to much to a computer. I do have these SGIs here to remind me of better times, with one still very capable (SGI Tezro) to actually do some work on. - MG From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 14 20:02:32 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 01:02:32 -0000 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> On 04/14/2013 08:40 PM, MG wrote: > > On 22-feb-2013 20:09, Murray McCullough wrote: >> Should we be surprised at how and why classic-computing, this site in >> particular, is so popular amongst the hobbyist/experimenter community >> today? There is a modicum of control that?s lacking in today?s >> computing, or computing-like, technology. Granted it?s ?easier? to >> use/employ, nearly by all; everything, or almost, done without >> consumer input but turning the infernal beast on. Or, maybe not with >> the ?intelligence agents? been employed today! And even our computers >> I dare say going this route. Automatic updates, etc., etc., >> happen?Making a computer or otherwise do what you want it to do, >> rather than say an Apple or something akin, is fast becoming a thing >> of the past. Freedom. Let?s hope it?s not pass? either! > > If you ask me, computing itself is something of the past. What is > actually 'computed' nowadays on the tons of worthless 'smart phones' > and other nonsensical wastes of cycles and electricity? > > I'm not even near as old as some of those posting here and I'm > already bittered (or was, certainly, more so a while back). > I've come to accept that it's a consumerist culture where > everything is disposable. (In this supposedly 'more and more' > "green" world.) So, I've started not to care much and not > attach to much to a computer. I refuse to follow planned obsolescence. I will only dispose of the system if it's absolutely worthless (like a pentium 4...I want that garbage GONE) and I've scrapped it for any useful parts. Unfortunately a lot of modern x86 systems are garbage... However, almost all hardware before the pentium 3 I will do all my effort to preserve and keep alive. For example: I have this pentium 2 I refuse to part with (it's my nameserver) and my router is a Netra t1 105. However...with phones? I replaced that pretty quickly (largely because I don't really like Android and Google are evil) If the hardware was made past a certain year...I don't find it worth saving because it won't last. Like modern VCR/DVD combos? Those are utter trash, they fail after a year and they're not worth fixing because it's like they're almost made out of paper or something. I hate planned obsolescence with a burning passion...I don't throw things away because I don't have a use for it (unless it was $10 or less and was as disposable as toilet paper), I usually save it for later or give it to a good home. (The phone is a perfect example. I replaced the phone, but I kept the old one. It's useful as a wifi remote control for things.) Okay, I probably won't repair a microwave due to the dangers, but that's why I like SHARP Microwaves...those pretty much don't fail. ;) Wow. I'm probably younger than you and *I* just went on a rant! Excuse the rant... > > I do have these SGIs here to remind me of better times, with > one still very capable (SGI Tezro) to actually do some work > on. I don't care if the system is capable, I just want it to LAST. I find most systems pre-P3 WILL. > > - MG > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Apr 14 20:13:08 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:13:08 -0700 Subject: AE GSRAM Plus- DRAMS needed 1024x1, Total of 40 needed In-Reply-To: <516AE6EB.9010001@gmail.com> References: <516AE6EB.9010001@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:27:07 -0400 > From: slandon110 at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: AE GSRAM Plus- DRAMS needed 1024x1, Total of 40 needed > > Im looking for 40 dram chips for my AE GSRam Plus to expand it to the > full 6MB > > It takes 1024x1 DRAM Chips > > Thanks > > Steve You mean your only 5K bytes from a full 6MB?Dwight From kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 20:16:29 2013 From: kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com (Kurt M. Nowak) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:16:29 -0700 Subject: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer In-Reply-To: <1365481722.72487.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1365481598.86218.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1365481722.72487.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <516B54ED.1010509@gmail.com> On 4/8/2013 9:28 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: > I am looking for a daisy wheel printer to buy > > I know I need one with a parallel/ Centronics port > but what else should I get? > > --- > tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" > Child of the Internet born 1983 > PGP DA98 A195 06AD 1330 7EB0 50C3 724C 9974 A7EF 6006 > Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks > > Hi Tom, I have a box of daisy wheels that are looking for a home. They were going to go to the Goodwill, but perhaps you or anyone would like this stuff. Free + shipping from San Diego area 91942. I took some pics of it here... https://plus.google.com/u/0/112158735340501596756/posts/79bshGMkCXx From jws at jwsss.com Sun Apr 14 20:20:31 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:20:31 -0700 Subject: Warning: fake ebay 'second chance' offers In-Reply-To: <516B4A18.4050900@gmail.com> References: <516B4A18.4050900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516B55DF.9030402@jwsss.com> On 4/14/2013 5:30 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 4/14/2013 5:12 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Someone *must* have cracked the >>> ebay database... >> A snipe service database also could have been compromised. It seems to >> me that they get your Ebay name and password for the sniping process - >> but if someone gets their hands on that data, they can get into >> sellers accounts and see who the underbidders are for higher ticket >> items. >> >> > > Could be a seller using another account to get more money. Use the > other account to bid some crazy high amount. Cancel the the sale then > contact the person who lost and offer it at their max bid. Always get > max bid that way. The fact this guy seems to always use the same email > address is odd for someone just trying to straight up rip people off. > > THey can contact me if they can guess my ebay id. but it is worlds away from anything i use for email. I think MIke's point was it was an ebay looking approach @ his email address. I get my email from ebay thru a distantly related oddball server and then respond thru ebay messages. Unless i reply thru there or send my email address by replying to a message from my main email I will never get email there that is legit. The other way to discover ID's by the way which I'm using is to watch feedback to sellers who don't like. BUt that still only gives an ebay ID unless you happen to associate your ebay ID with an email address somewhere. jim From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 14 20:25:49 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:25:49 -0600 Subject: adm3 terminal on latest doctor who (cold war) episode In-Reply-To: <516AF1FF.6040805@ubanproductions.com> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> <516AB5C6.4070206@ubanproductions.com> <516AF1FF.6040805@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 14 20:26:14 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 21:26:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> Message-ID: <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > If the hardware was made past a certain year...I don't find it worth > saving because it won't last. That may be true of the hardware you get, but there _is_ good-quality hardware made even today. It's hard to find, and it costs (as quality always does), but it exists. I once saw a machine - architecturally a peecee - which looked as though it were intended for the sort of use where a failure doesn't just mean a truck roll, it means chartering a small airplane and at least two or three days of a bush pilot's time, and that's before you even _think_ about the costs of the replacement machine and the tech who goes along to do the swap. > I hate planned obsolescence with a burning passion... I too, though I suspect your passion on this point burns rather hotter than mine. > I don't throw things away because I don't have a use for it [...] Agreed. My parents were Depression-era kids, and it shows in some of the attitudes I got from them. "Use it up, wear it out, make it do-- or do without." I just recently (three days ago) explained to someone that taking a computer I was offering was actually doing me a favour, because it lets me get rid of a machine without tripping my "aak! throwing away working hardware!" issues. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 14 20:38:47 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> Message-ID: <20130414183816.U96326@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 15 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Wow. I'm probably younger than you and *I* just went on a rant! There's no age requirement. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 14 21:02:00 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 02:02:00 -0000 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <516B5F98.7060207@gewt.net> On 04/14/2013 09:26 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> If the hardware was made past a certain year...I don't find it worth >> saving because it won't last. > > That may be true of the hardware you get, but there _is_ good-quality > hardware made even today. It's hard to find, and it costs (as quality > always does), but it exists. I once saw a machine - architecturally a > peecee - which looked as though it were intended for the sort of use > where a failure doesn't just mean a truck roll, it means chartering a > small airplane and at least two or three days of a bush pilot's time, > and that's before you even _think_ about the costs of the replacement > machine and the tech who goes along to do the swap. Yeah, that's the thing! It costs a crazy amount, but it DOES still exist. You can't just go out to your local computer shop and pick up something like my PII. ;) My Alphaserver ES40 is insanely well built and would've cost a pretty penny. ;) I was discussing its original price new with my dad and he didn't believe it! (and probably still doesn't! He's he's not used to seeing absurdly well-built top-of-the-line stuff!) > >> I hate planned obsolescence with a burning passion... > > I too, though I suspect your passion on this point burns rather hotter > than mine. Possibly. ;) > >> I don't throw things away because I don't have a use for it [...] > > Agreed. My parents were Depression-era kids, and it shows in some of > the attitudes I got from them. "Use it up, wear it out, make it do-- > or do without." I just recently (three days ago) explained to someone > that taking a computer I was offering was actually doing me a favour, > because it lets me get rid of a machine without tripping my "aak! > throwing away working hardware!" issues. I was given similar lessons from my grandfather...he's actually one of the reasons I have an interest in some of the things I do. He worked at Western Electric/AT&T testing equipment and doing minor repairs. He's also where I got the ability to self-teach a lot of stuff. ;) He was trained on the job for pretty much everything he did and he's a really really smart guy. He grew up in a completely different world and has had time to see times change. ;) I do occasionally have to explain to him why I like the older equipment though! He doesn't mind when I try and explain how stuff has changed. He remembers seeings setups similar to my DECserver 200/MC and VT420 setup when he was working, so it's interesting to hear what he has to say when I'm telling him about my current project! My exceptions to that rule ARE Pentium 3/4 and systems from that period...I just feel dirty using them and I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. A drunk elephant trapped in quicksand that's going senile outperforms them (respective to what they are, not when comparing them to modern speed expectations). Long live the Pentium II and the 440-series chipsets! (and DEC and SGI gear and so on) > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 21:23:22 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 22:23:22 -0400 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <516B4168.30904@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> <1663FDEB-7A74-4FD7-9C6F-A6C685376945@gmail.com> <516B4168.30904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <095F1FE8-B9F9-49C0-AF78-EA553CB81FAB@gmail.com> On Apr 14, 2013, at 7:53 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/12/2013 02:24 PM, David Riley wrote: >> The PSU is probably pretty similar to an ATX supply in that the >> motherboard pulls a pin high or low to soft-switch the supply on and >> off. I'm having trouble finding a pinout for the 6400's PSU > > Just an update on this - with the 5x00 bus pinouts that you gave me, I was able to confirm that the 6400 is the same (at least as far as the PSU signals) - so thanks for the link. > > Unfortunately, it's also confirmed that I've got a dead PSU; I've got no +5V on the standby/TRKL line at all. I've done a few basic checks for open diodes, transistors etc. on the AC input side, and things seem OK there. > > I think I have a spare ATX PSU from a PC somewhere, so I may try that if I can contrive something to marry up the different power-on signal (or I suppose I could just hit the power switch on the back of the Apple and then turn the PSU on manually, just for testing purposes) - there's probably no point my spending time fixing the Apple's PSU if the system board is toast anyway... A simple open-collector inverter made from a general-purpose NPN transistor should do fine. If you Google hard enough for it, you can find examples; you'll probably at least need to put a resistor on the base so you don't blow it up, but you might not need one on the collector. If you can't find anything, let me know, I probably have an example stored somewhere. Of course, if you're just going to make a wiring harness for the ATX supply and wire the thing on all the time, that solves your problem too. But the switch on the Mac itself is only going to switch that power-on line; if you have an ATX supply with a switch on it (which seem to be rarer these days), that would do the trick. If it turns out your logic board is OK, do consider trying to repair your power supply; the 6400/6500 ones seem hard to find on eBay. Be sane about it, though; my Quadra 700's PSU had a bad connection in the transformer which supplied the +5v standby, which is basically unfixable (there's absolutely NO WAY I'd be able to find a replacement for that part; I probably could have reverse-engineered the schematic and figured out how to MAKE one, but it wasn't that precious to me since Q700/IIci/IIcx power supplies are pretty reasonable on eBay). - Dave From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Apr 14 21:42:28 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 21:42:28 -0500 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's Message-ID: <201304150243.r3F2gvd2053545@mx1.ezwind.net> So how often do these original CDC "Mona Lisa By the Numbers" posters come up for sale? Or the old circa 1960 Calcomp 30-inch plotters? - John From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Apr 14 21:45:16 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 21:45:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer In-Reply-To: <516B54ED.1010509@gmail.com> References: <1365481598.86218.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1365481722.72487.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516B54ED.1010509@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Apr 2013, Kurt M. Nowak wrote: > On 4/8/2013 9:28 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: >> I am looking for a daisy wheel printer to buy >> >> I know I need one with a parallel/ Centronics port >> but what else should I get? >> >> --- >> tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" >> Child of the Internet born 1983 >> PGP DA98 A195 06AD 1330 7EB0 50C3 724C 9974 A7EF 6006 >> Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - >> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html >> Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks > > Hi Tom, > > I have a box of daisy wheels that are looking for a home. They were > going to go to the Goodwill, but perhaps you or anyone would like this > stuff. Free + shipping from San Diego area 91942. I took some pics of it > here... > > https://plus.google.com/u/0/112158735340501596756/posts/79bshGMkCXx I'd recognize that stylized Q anywhere...those with that Q on them are for a Qume http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qume branded printer. I'm not sure about the others with the stylized F (it is familiar but I can't place it right now), but TELEX almost certainly refers to the font. Alas I'm fairly certain that I don't have a compatible printer around here anywhere, otherwise I'd be tempted myself. Now, if someone happened to have a spare tractor feed assembly for an IBM wheelwriter (I think that's one I have on the shelf)... From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Apr 14 21:54:03 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 22:54:03 -0400 Subject: Rejecting the cult of waste - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/04/13 9:26 PM, Mouse wrote: >> If the hardware was made past a certain year...I don't find it worth >> saving because it won't last. > > That may be true of the hardware you get, but there _is_ good-quality > hardware made even today. It's hard to find, and it costs (as quality > always does), but it exists. I once saw a machine - architecturally a > peecee - which looked as though it were intended for the sort of use > where a failure doesn't just mean a truck roll, it means chartering a > small airplane and at least two or three days of a bush pilot's time, > and that's before you even _think_ about the costs of the replacement > machine and the tech who goes along to do the swap. > >> I hate planned obsolescence with a burning passion... > > I too, though I suspect your passion on this point burns rather hotter > than mine. > >> I don't throw things away because I don't have a use for it [...] > > Agreed. My parents were Depression-era kids, and it shows in some of > the attitudes I got from them. "Use it up, wear it out, make it do-- That is what I got from my parents, and I thank them every day for it. The dominant culture thinks nothing of discarding working, useful things. When it comes to electronics, it is fairly certain we junk far more stuff in perfect working order, than faulty stuff. Our only consolation is that one day, we will have to stop doing this. It's a very finite rope. And boy, will we feel dumb then. --Toby > or do without." I just recently (three days ago) explained to someone > that taking a computer I was offering was actually doing me a favour, > because it lets me get rid of a machine without tripping my "aak! > throwing away working hardware!" issues. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 22:12:09 2013 From: kurt.m.nowak at gmail.com (Kurt M. Nowak) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:12:09 -0700 Subject: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer In-Reply-To: References: <1365481598.86218.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1365481722.72487.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516B54ED.1010509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516B7009.9040109@gmail.com> On 4/14/2013 7:45 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Sun, 14 Apr 2013, Kurt M. Nowak wrote: >> On 4/8/2013 9:28 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: >>> I am looking for a daisy wheel printer to buy >>> >>> I know I need one with a parallel/ Centronics port >>> but what else should I get? >>> >>> --- >>> tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" >>> Child of the Internet born 1983 >>> PGP DA98 A195 06AD 1330 7EB0 50C3 724C 9974 A7EF 6006 >>> Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - >>> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html >>> Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks >> >> Hi Tom, >> >> I have a box of daisy wheels that are looking for a home. They were >> going to go to the Goodwill, but perhaps you or anyone would like >> this stuff. Free + shipping from San Diego area 91942. I took some >> pics of it here... >> >> https://plus.google.com/u/0/112158735340501596756/posts/79bshGMkCXx > > I'd recognize that stylized Q anywhere...those with that Q on them are > for a Qume http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qume branded printer. I'm not > sure about the others with the stylized F (it is familiar but I can't > place it right now), but TELEX almost certainly refers to the font. > Alas I'm fairly certain that I don't have a compatible printer around > here anywhere, otherwise I'd be tempted myself. > > Now, if someone happened to have a spare tractor feed assembly for an > IBM wheelwriter (I think that's one I have on the shelf)... All those came from an box of old office supplies belonging to my dad, who in the 80s used to have a Telex teleprinter machine to send messages to other offices. Perhaps they had two teletype machines in the office... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telex Anyone is welcome to have them all... -Kurt From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 14 22:24:36 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 03:24:36 -0000 Subject: Rejecting the cult of waste - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 14 Apr 2013, at 22:54, "Toby Thain" wrote: > > On 14/04/13 9:26 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> If the hardware was made past a certain year...I don't find it worth >>> saving because it won't last. >> >> That may be true of the hardware you get, but there _is_ good-quality >> hardware made even today. It's hard to find, and it costs (as quality >> always does), but it exists. I once saw a machine - architecturally a >> peecee - which looked as though it were intended for the sort of use >> where a failure doesn't just mean a truck roll, it means chartering a >> small airplane and at least two or three days of a bush pilot's time, >> and that's before you even _think_ about the costs of the replacement >> machine and the tech who goes along to do the swap. >> >>> I hate planned obsolescence with a burning passion... >> >> I too, though I suspect your passion on this point burns rather hotter >> than mine. >> >>> I don't throw things away because I don't have a use for it [...] >> >> Agreed. My parents were Depression-era kids, and it shows in some of >> the attitudes I got from them. "Use it up, wear it out, make it do-- > > That is what I got from my parents, and I thank them every day for it. > > The dominant culture thinks nothing of discarding working, useful things. When it comes to electronics, it is fairly certain we junk far more stuff in perfect working order, than faulty stuff. That leaves us more to dumpster-dive for. ;) > > Our only consolation is that one day, we will have to stop doing this. It's a very finite rope. And boy, will we feel dumb then. > > --Toby > >> or do without." I just recently (three days ago) explained to someone >> that taking a computer I was offering was actually doing me a favour, >> because it lets me get rid of a machine without tripping my "aak! >> throwing away working hardware!" issues. >> >> /~\ The ASCII Mouse >> \ / Ribbon Campaign >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org >> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B >> > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Apr 14 22:45:43 2013 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:45:43 -0700 Subject: 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS - craigslist ad In-Reply-To: <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <516B77E7.7040008@sbcglobal.net> A very interesting Craigslist ad. Way over my budget though. http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cbd/3739779845.html 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS, MADE AT M.I.T. MODEL DU Date: 2013-04-12, 2:45PM 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS, MADE AT M.I.T. MODEL DUMKOPF 1 USED FOR PLOT INTERCEPT OF MISSILES AND ARTILLERY. $100K. CALL2025279501 HISTORIC 1953 UNIVAC 120/409 COMPUTER 19" PROCESSOR MODULE WITH REMINGTON RAND TUBES AND COMPONENT CAGES IN ORIGINAL REMINGTON RAND BOX. $10K. CALLS ONLY2025279501 altair computer from 1975 $3K. CALLS ONLY-NO EMAILS OR TEXTS ANSWERED-2025279501 * it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests Original URL: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cbd/3739779845.html From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 14 22:46:53 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 23:46:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <095F1FE8-B9F9-49C0-AF78-EA553CB81FAB@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> <1663FDEB-7A74-4FD7-9C6F-A6C685376945@gmail.com> <516B4168.30904@gmail.com> <095F1FE8-B9F9-49C0-AF78-EA553CB81FAB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201304150346.XAA18798@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [I]f you have an ATX supply with a switch on it (which seem to be > rarer these days), that would do the trick. Maybe. The ATX supplies with switches I've seen have the switch in series with the mains, so it just allows you to hard power-down without losing ground - it doesn't allow you to manually force the supply to power up. Or are you talking about a switch that _does_ override the wiring harness's "please power on" line? I've never seen one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Apr 14 22:50:10 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:50:10 -0700 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CA4F5DF-114D-4F37-B529-63185A74DD05@shiresoft.com> On Apr 14, 2013, at 12:38 PM, William Barnett-Lewis wrote: > > > Ultimately I'd like to have a small collection of real classic > hardware - a Symbolics XL1200, a Vax (or Vaxstation) 4000 & a PDP-11. > I'll work on that last one for now and deal with emulation for the > rest :) If you want a Symbolics, I suggest you get in touch with David Schmidt at sales at symbolics-dks.com. He'll happily sell you just about any Symbolics you want and it'll work too! We're still trying to get the 8620 I bought from him going (seems the console is infested with a PS eating gremlin). TTFN - Guy From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sun Apr 14 22:59:42 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 116, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1365998382.24423.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >________________________________ >I refuse to follow planned obsolescence. >I also hate planned obsolescence my X86's I buy newand keep retooling the software untilthey die my classic / remake systems (amiga, riscOS), I well upgrade/update them to a point (I will not convert my desktop amigas to a tower) I am sickof products that use the Freebie marketing / razor and blades business model thats why I am buying older printers because I can buy the Consumables (stil-inbox) on ebay tom From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 14 23:01:58 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 21:01:58 -0700 Subject: 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS - craigslist ad In-Reply-To: <516B77E7.7040008@sbcglobal.net> References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> <516B77E7.7040008@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Also interesting is that it's the SF/Bay Area Craigslist, but the area code is Washington DC. Photo's would have been nice. Zane At 8:45 PM -0700 4/14/13, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >A very interesting Craigslist ad. Way over my budget though. > >http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cbd/3739779845.html > > > 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS, MADE AT M.I.T. MODEL DU > >Date: 2013-04-12, 2:45PM > >1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS, MADE AT M.I.T. MODEL >DUMKOPF 1 USED FOR PLOT INTERCEPT OF MISSILES AND ARTILLERY. $100K. >CALL2025279501 > > >HISTORIC 1953 UNIVAC 120/409 COMPUTER 19" PROCESSOR MODULE WITH >REMINGTON RAND TUBES AND COMPONENT CAGES IN ORIGINAL REMINGTON RAND >BOX. $10K. CALLS ONLY2025279501 > >altair computer from 1975 $3K. CALLS ONLY-NO EMAILS OR TEXTS >ANSWERED-2025279501 > > * it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial > interests > >Original URL: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cbd/3739779845.html -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sun Apr 14 23:02:36 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 21:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <1365998382.24423.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1365998382.24423.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1365998556.11787.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> _______________________________ >> I refuse to follow planned obsolescence. I also hate planned obsolescence ?my X86's I buy newand keep retooling the software untilthey die ?my classic / remake systems (amiga, riscOS), I well upgrade/update them to a ?point ?(I will not convert my desktop amigas to a tower) ?I am sickof products that use the Freebie marketing / razor and blades business model thats why I am buying older printers because I can buy the Consumables (stil-inbox) on ebay > tom > From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 14 23:13:19 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 04:13:19 -0000 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> <1663FDEB-7A74-4FD7-9C6F-A6C685376945@gmail.com> <516B4168.30904@gmail.com> <095F1FE8-B9F9-49C0-AF78-EA553CB81FAB@gmail.com> <201304150346.XAA18798@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 14 Apr 2013, at 23:46, "Mouse" wrote: > >> [I]f you have an ATX supply with a switch on it (which seem to be >> rarer these days), that would do the trick. > > Maybe. The ATX supplies with switches I've seen have the switch in > series with the mains, so it just allows you to hard power-down without > losing ground - it doesn't allow you to manually force the supply to > power up. In my experience it did if I shorted the wires that connect to the main board for the switch. > > Or are you talking about a switch that _does_ override the wiring > harness's "please power on" line? I've never seen one, but that > doesn't mean they don't exist.... > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 23:16:55 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 00:16:55 -0400 Subject: 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS - craigslist ad In-Reply-To: <516B77E7.7040008@sbcglobal.net> References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> <516B77E7.7040008@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > A very interesting Craigslist ad. Way over my budget though. > > 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS, MADE AT M.I.T. MODEL DUMKOPF > 1 USED FOR PLOT INTERCEPT OF MISSILES AND ARTILLERY. $100K. CALL2025279501 I have never heard of this one, but my guess is that it is just some kind of analog computer for mortar tracking that never escaped an MIT lab. Neat, but not $100K neat. -- Will From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 14 23:27:59 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 04:27:59 -0000 Subject: Hardware vs Simh References: <2CA4F5DF-114D-4F37-B529-63185A74DD05@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 14 Apr 2013, at 23:50, "Guy Sotomayor" wrote: > > > On Apr 14, 2013, at 12:38 PM, William Barnett-Lewis wrote: > >> >> >> Ultimately I'd like to have a small collection of real classic >> hardware - a Symbolics XL1200, a Vax (or Vaxstation) 4000 & a PDP-11. >> I'll work on that last one for now and deal with emulation for the >> rest :) > > If you want a Symbolics, I suggest you get in touch with David Schmidt at > sales at symbolics-dks.com. He'll happily sell you just about any Symbolics > you want and it'll work too! Yes, but for how much? ;) > > We're still trying to get the 8620 I bought from him going (seems the console > is infested with a PS eating gremlin). > > TTFN - Guy From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 23:29:06 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 00:29:06 -0400 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <201304150346.XAA18798@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> <1663FDEB-7A74-4FD7-9C6F-A6C685376945@gmail.com> <516B4168.30904@gmail.com> <095F1FE8-B9F9-49C0-AF78-EA553CB81FAB@gmail.com> <201304150346.XAA18798@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <47BC0515-4CB9-47CE-8E63-0351FC9D09D5@gmail.com> On Apr 14, 2013, at 11:46 PM, Mouse wrote: >> [I]f you have an ATX supply with a switch on it (which seem to be >> rarer these days), that would do the trick. > > Maybe. The ATX supplies with switches I've seen have the switch in > series with the mains, so it just allows you to hard power-down without > losing ground - it doesn't allow you to manually force the supply to > power up. > > Or are you talking about a switch that _does_ override the wiring > harness's "please power on" line? I've never seen one, but that > doesn't mean they don't exist.... Oh, yes, I assumed he'd be hotwiring the "power on" low. Should have mentioned that. You could always wire up a switch for *that* if you wanted to, but if the supply already has a mains switch, it's much easier to just wire the power on line to ground and use that. - Dave From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 14 23:43:59 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 04:43:59 -0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 116, Issue 42 References: <1365998382.24423.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <24C17955-E14C-4F1B-8348-F9A958254EFC@gewt.net> On 14 Apr 2013, at 23:59, "Tom Sparks" wrote: > > > > >> ________________________________ >> I refuse to follow planned obsolescence. >> I also hate planned obsolescence > my X86's I buy newand keep retooling the software until they die Understandable. > my classic / remake systems (amiga, riscOS), I well upgrade/update them to a point > (I will not convert my desktop amigas to a tower) I bet you they'll outlive the x86s. ;) > I am sickof products that use the Freebie marketing / razor and blades business model > > thats why I am buying older printers because I can buy the Consumables (stil-inbox) on ebay They'll outlive a new printer! > > tom > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 23:55:26 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 00:55:26 -0400 Subject: 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS - craigslist ad In-Reply-To: References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> <516B77E7.7040008@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <7EA5BA16-36DD-44C8-848C-15BA7DE04A41@gmail.com> On Apr 15, 2013, at 12:01 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Also interesting is that it's the SF/Bay Area Craigslist, but the area code is Washington DC. Photo's would have been nice. I live in Philadelphia and have a Baltimore area code. Blame cell phones? - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 15 00:46:43 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 01:46:43 -0400 Subject: Rejecting the cult of waste - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <516B9443.5080206@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/04/13 11:24 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > > On 14 Apr 2013, at 22:54, "Toby Thain" wrote: > ... >> The dominant culture thinks nothing of discarding working, useful things. When it comes to electronics, it is fairly certain we junk far more stuff in perfect working order, than faulty stuff. > > That leaves us more to dumpster-dive for. ;) That's how I know it's true. But only a tiny part is meaningfully reused, recycled, or repaired. --T > >> >> Our only consolation is that one day, we will have to stop doing this. It's a very finite rope. And boy, will we feel dumb then. >> >> --Toby >> >>> or do without." I just recently (three days ago) explained to someone >>> that taking a computer I was offering was actually doing me a favour, >>> because it lets me get rid of a machine without tripping my "aak! >>> throwing away working hardware!" issues. >>> >>> /~\ The ASCII Mouse >>> \ / Ribbon Campaign >>> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org >>> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B >>> >> > > > From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Sun Apr 14 13:43:22 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:43:22 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 14 Apr 2013 07:22:26 -0400" <516A9172.507@compsys.to> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> Message-ID: <01OSHGADOJ9E006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> >> There is more to vintage computing than just software!! > I agree!! Can you describe what is included in "more"? I don't have anything like a PDP-11. The oldest machine I have is probably a BBC Micro and the biggest, noisiest machine I have is an Alphaserver 2100. > (a) Extra noise I've been known to mess about with trying (not very successfully) to get a sound card to produce a 400Hz background whirr that comes and goes as I move around the room. The sound of fans and disks does help create the right mood as long as it is not loud enough to be irritating. > (b) Extra heat Not a problem in winter (except for the effect on system reliability). More of a difficulty in summer. > (c) Total cost is more Not necessarily. I've paid at most nominal amounts for most if not all of my older equipment although I have sometimes had to invest a little more for the parts and peripherals I occasionally need. I am not part of the crowd that collects old equipment hoping for it to increase in value. There would be an incremental cost to the world and the environment if I was to purchase hardware and software from companies producing the latest equipment and running the latest bugware. > (d) Slower CPU If it's fast enough, I am not bothered by how much faster it could be. > (e) Slower disk I/O Same. > (f) Slower ethernet Same. > (g) Less disk space I am fairly disorganised. Less disk space gives me an incentive to keep things tidy and get rid of clutter. I am slightly more worried about reliability of old disk hardware. However, I've managed to keep ahead of the disks that have died on me so far. > (h) Smell, touch and feel of original hardware I like the touch and feel of the original software as well as the hardware. If the hardware I want is not available and a good emulator is, I'll use the emulator to experience the software. I'll still use something pretty old to run the emulator on though. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From sytse at sytse.net Sun Apr 14 16:37:15 2013 From: sytse at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 23:37:15 +0200 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <5B22F2A9-2FB3-4161-BE3C-6263A043F587@gewt.net> References: <9169276.ldpx7PyGGZ@i5.sytse.net> <5B22F2A9-2FB3-4161-BE3C-6263A043F587@gewt.net> Message-ID: <1666308.jQOaSuDpxV@i5.sytse.net> On Sunday, April 14, 2013 21:21:18 Cory Smelosky wrote: > On 14 Apr 2013, at 16:55, "cclist" wrote: > > On Sunday, April 14, 2013 21:04:38 Dave wrote: > >> There are also implementions in FPGA of > >> several other CPUs, including PDP/8 and PDP/11 (but not sure how > >> complete the PDP/11 ones are). > > > > My fpga PDP11 is very complete. You can run all the historic operating > > systems on it, including 2.11BSD. And you can even hook it up to > > ethernet. No more need for a pc to simulate. > > I bet I could connect it directly to my VT420, too. ;) Sure you could! > > > Read about it at http://pdp2011.sytse.net/ From paulhagstrom at me.com Sun Apr 14 21:01:01 2013 From: paulhagstrom at me.com (Paul Hagstrom) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 22:01:01 -0400 Subject: Warning: fake ebay 'second chance' offers In-Reply-To: <516B55DF.9030402@jwsss.com> References: <516B4A18.4050900@gmail.com> <516B55DF.9030402@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <772A238B-D3EC-49CD-BFAE-247E3264BA74@me.com> On Apr 14, 2013, at 9:20 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > On 4/14/2013 5:30 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> On 4/14/2013 5:12 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>> Someone *must* have cracked the >>>> ebay database... > THey can contact me if they can guess my ebay id. but it is worlds away from anything i use for email. I think MIke's point was it was an ebay looking approach @ his email address. I get my email from ebay thru a distantly related oddball server and then respond thru ebay messages. Unless i reply thru there or send my email address by replying to a message from my main email I will never get email there that is legit. > > The other way to discover ID's by the way which I'm using is to watch feedback to sellers who don't like. BUt that still only gives an ebay ID unless you happen to associate your ebay ID with an email address somewhere. It is indeed relatively easy to find people's eBay IDs with some patience, since the obscured ID still contains two accurate letters (in reverse order, I believe, at least in all the cases I've found) but an accurate feedback number (which changes, so the delta can also be checked over time), so looking through feedback for likely buyers/sellers who might have interacted with them for matching feedback numbers often can un-obscure the eBay ID. I did that for a while trying to help someone track down where some stuff from an auctioned storage space went, and just for curiosity to see who keeps winning against me. Seems to me that one can avoid even potential scam second chance offers by just going through the eBay web interface. That won't protect against shill bidding, but would filter out spoofed emails. I pretty much never interact with eBay emails I get except to file them away, I just go to the web interface to deal with whatever it was. -Paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 02:27:32 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 08:27:32 +0100 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516BABE4.3070401@gmail.com> On 15/04/2013 01:40, MG wrote: > On 22-feb-2013 20:09, Murray McCullough wrote: >> Should we be surprised at how and why classic-computing, this site in >> particular, is so popular amongst the hobbyist/experimenter community >> today? There is a modicum of control that?s lacking in today?s >> computing, or computing-like, technology. Granted it?s ?easier? to >> use/employ, nearly by all; everything, or almost, done without >> consumer input but turning the infernal beast on. Or, maybe not with >> the ?intelligence agents? been employed today! And even our computers >> I dare say going this route. Automatic updates, etc., etc., >> happen?Making a computer or otherwise do what you want it to do, >> rather than say an Apple or something akin, is fast becoming a thing >> of the past. Freedom. Let?s hope it?s not pass? either! > > If you ask me, computing itself is something of the past. What is > actually 'computed' nowadays on the tons of worthless 'smart phones' > and other nonsensical wastes of cycles and electricity? > My WeightWatcher Points, get Up-to-date weather forecast, SatNav, read alt.folklore.computers read cctalk > I'm not even near as old as some of those posting here and I'm > already bittered (or was, certainly, more so a while back). > I've come to accept that it's a consumerist culture where > everything is disposable. (In this supposedly 'more and more' > "green" world.) So, I've started not to care much and not > attach to much to a computer. > Its getting harder not to dispose. In the UK we are on our third generation of Digital TV boxes and as analogue broadcasting has ended you have to have a box that is compatible with the latest incarnation of the standards. Recently I disposed of a "first generation" box as although the chipset inside was compatible with current standards the firmware wasn't. I did search to see if it could be upgraded but apparently not. Even rescuing SMD components isn't as easy as discrete. You MUST have an LCR meter to check with. > I do have these SGIs here to remind me of better times, with > one still very capable (SGI Tezro) to actually do some work > on. > Must fix my SPARC station. I think the hard disk has died and I didn't have a backup.... > - MG > Dave G4UGM -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Apr 15 02:31:15 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 02:31:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Warning: fake ebay 'second chance' offers In-Reply-To: <772A238B-D3EC-49CD-BFAE-247E3264BA74@me.com> References: <516B4A18.4050900@gmail.com> <516B55DF.9030402@jwsss.com> <772A238B-D3EC-49CD-BFAE-247E3264BA74@me.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Apr 2013, Paul Hagstrom wrote: > On Apr 14, 2013, at 9:20 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: >> On 4/14/2013 5:30 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> On 4/14/2013 5:12 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >>>>> Someone *must* have cracked the ebay database... >> >> THey can contact me if they can guess my ebay id. but it is worlds >> away from anything i use for email. I think MIke's point was it was an >> ebay looking approach @ his email address. I get my email from ebay >> thru a distantly related oddball server and then respond thru ebay >> messages. Unless i reply thru there or send my email address by >> replying to a message from my main email I will never get email there >> that is legit. >> >> The other way to discover ID's by the way which I'm using is to watch >> feedback to sellers who don't like. BUt that still only gives an ebay >> ID unless you happen to associate your ebay ID with an email address >> somewhere. > > It is indeed relatively easy to find people's eBay IDs with some > patience, since the obscured ID still contains two accurate letters (in > reverse order, I believe, at least in all the cases I've found) but an > accurate feedback number (which changes, so the delta can also be > checked over time), so looking through feedback for likely > buyers/sellers who might have interacted with them for matching feedback > numbers often can un-obscure the eBay ID. I did that for a while trying > to help someone track down where some stuff from an auctioned storage > space went, and just for curiosity to see who keeps winning against me. The two letters in the obscured userid can be in any order and from anywhere in the normalized userid and the same letter could even be used twice. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 02:32:06 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 08:32:06 +0100 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <201304150243.r3F2gvd2053545@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304150243.r3F2gvd2053545@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <516BACF6.2030804@gmail.com> On 15/04/2013 03:42, John Foust wrote: > So how often do these original CDC "Mona Lisa By the Numbers" posters > come up for sale? Or the old circa 1960 Calcomp 30-inch plotters? > > - John > Never seen either. Even the more common Calcomp 12" plotters are like hens teeth. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 02:34:19 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 08:34:19 +0100 Subject: 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS - craigslist ad In-Reply-To: References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> <516B77E7.7040008@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <516BAD7B.8020909@gmail.com> On 15/04/2013 05:16, William Donzelli wrote: >> A very interesting Craigslist ad. Way over my budget though. >> >> 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS, MADE AT M.I.T. MODEL DUMKOPF >> 1 USED FOR PLOT INTERCEPT OF MISSILES AND ARTILLERY. $100K. CALL2025279501 > I have never heard of this one, but my guess is that it is just some > kind of analog computer for mortar tracking that never escaped an MIT > lab. Neat, but not $100K neat. At that time I am also pretty sure it would be Analogue. Mind you the model "DUMKOPF 1" smells slightly. I would have said $1k never mind $100k.... > -- > Will -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Apr 15 05:01:14 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 06:01:14 -0400 Subject: 11/53, was Re: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516B138F.6090401@neurotica.com> References: <516B09B3.6010304@verizon.net> <516B138F.6090401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516BCFEA.8010304@verizon.net> On 04/14/2013 04:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/14/2013 03:55 PM, allison wrote: >>> A BA23 or BA123 chassis. Would others work as well? >>> A CPU with separate I/D space. 11/23, 11/53, 11/73, 11/83 or 11/93 >>> would work with the Q-bus chassis above. > > >> the 11/53 is a system designation. the CPUs are F11 (11/23), >> J11 (11/73, 83, 93). > > Nope...11/53 is a J11 on a *completely different* CPU board, which > includes onboard memory. > > -Dave > Nope. When you say PDP-11/53 your talking a system designator. If you start talking the CPU only you use different terms like KJA11. Oh, PDP-11/53s aka Micro-11 in the ba23 pedestal case was often a KDF11B or as some here call it an 11/23+. And yes there are several boards that are J11 cpu with and without memory (and PMI memory). I have a few. Both the initial KDAJ11 and later. Allison From stock at csgeeks.org Mon Apr 15 05:57:09 2013 From: stock at csgeeks.org (Matthew D Stock) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 06:57:09 -0400 Subject: New hardware project... Message-ID: <516BDD05.70904@csgeeks.org> I figured I'd share the progress I've made so far with my bus interface project. I've got the Arduino able to program the cartridge EEPROM. I'm going to start sorting out the Coco to Arduino communications next. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3vHKKITAlk. If you have any suggestions, let me know... -Matt From jonas at otter.se Mon Apr 15 05:26:09 2013 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 12:26:09 +0200 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a6001ad0c07c43f5d960af08f4a4dc0@otter.se> Tony Duell wrote: > But I would also argue that nobody (or at least very few people) wil > leb > equally interested in hardware and software. If you are a hardware > person, you will want to ru nthe real hardawre, you will want to laod > the > alignment pack and connect the 'scope to the read preamplifer. You > will > want to have a logic analyser conencted ot the CPU microcode address > bus > and wacch how it executes machine instructions. > Then I would be one of those very few. I find hardware and system software (operating systems, database managers etc) equally interesting. Actually, my view is that they are to a great extent two different incarnations of the same thing: The hardware is a physical machine that executes programs, the operating system is a kind of virtual machine which executes user programs. Then there is virtual machine software, that is also very interesting. I wrote a very simple operating system once in my career, now I am playing with writing another one in my spare time. Some day I will most likely also design and built my own processor, whether with discrete logic or an FPGA I am not sure, perhaps both. And then the physical experience of an actual old machine running is something special, quite like driving an old car or riding on a steam train. /Jonas From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon Apr 15 06:56:00 2013 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:56:00 +1000 Subject: New hardware project... In-Reply-To: <516BDD05.70904@csgeeks.org> References: <516BDD05.70904@csgeeks.org> Message-ID: <002401ce39d0$341d9da0$9c58d8e0$@internode.on.net> Hi Matt - while I really liked watching what you did and watching it fire up I'm interested in the RGB to VGA converter you used as I have quite a few legacy machines but a shortage of old monitors but no shortage of VGA screens. Can you provide a little detail please - thank you!! ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Matthew D Stock Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013 8:57 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: New hardware project... I figured I'd share the progress I've made so far with my bus interface project. I've got the Arduino able to program the cartridge EEPROM. I'm going to start sorting out the Coco to Arduino communications next. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3vHKKITAlk. If you have any suggestions, let me know... -Matt From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Mon Apr 15 07:09:02 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 05:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 116, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1366027742.58046.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On 14 Apr 2013, at 23:59, "Tom Sparks" wrote: > >>> I refuse to follow planned obsolescence. >>> I also hate planned obsolescence >> my X86's I buy newand keep retooling the software until they die > >Understandable. > >> my classic / remake systems (amiga, riscOS), I well upgrade/update them to a point >> (I will not convert my desktop amigas to a tower) > >I bet you they'll outlive the x86s. ;) >thats debatable, the Operating system needs to abandon its ties to the older hardware and become open source (RiscOS open / AROS ) if older software is need to be run emulation in the form of rosetta or wine can be used apple inc has made thetransition through a group of cpus then there is hope (6502 -> 68k -> PPC -> intel) >> I am sickof products that use the Freebie marketing / razor and blades business model >> >> thats why I am buying older printers because I can buy the Consumables (stil-inbox) on ebay > >They'll outlive a new printer! >its looking that way....... > >> tom >> >> > > > >On Apr 15, 2013, at 12:01 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Also interesting is that it's the SF/Bay Area Craigslist, but the area code is Washington DC.? Photo's would have been nice. > >I live in Philadelphia and have a Baltimore area code.? Blame >cell phones? > > >- Dave > >On 14/04/13 11:24 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> >> >> On 14 Apr 2013, at 22:54, "Toby Thain"? wrote: >> ... >>> The dominant culture thinks nothing of discarding working, useful things. When it comes to electronics, it is fairly certain we junk far more stuff in perfect working order, than faulty stuff. >> >> That leaves us more to dumpster-dive for. ;) > >That's how I know it's true. But only a tiny part is meaningfully >reused, recycled, or repaired. > >--T > >> >>> >>> Our only consolation is that one day, we will have to stop doing this. It's a very finite rope. And boy, will we feel dumb then. >>> >>> --Toby >>> >>>> or do without."? I just recently (three days ago) explained to someone >>>> that taking a computer I was offering was actually doing me a favour, >>>> because it lets me get rid of a machine without tripping my "aak! >>>> throwing away working hardware!" issues. >>>> >>>> /~\ The ASCII??? ??? ??? ??? ? Mouse >>>> \ / Ribbon Campaign >>>>? X? Against HTML??? ??? mouse at rodents-montreal.org >>>> / \ Email!??? ? ? 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39? 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B >>>> >>> >> >> >> > > >>> There is more to vintage computing than just software!! >> I agree!!? Can you describe what is included in "more"? > >I don't have anything like a PDP-11.? The oldest machine I have is probably >a BBC Micro and the biggest, noisiest machine I have is an Alphaserver 2100. > >> (a)? Extra noise > >I've been known to mess about with trying (not very successfully) to get a >sound card to produce a 400Hz background whirr that comes and goes as I move >around the room.? The sound of fans and disks does help create the right mood >as long as it is not loud enough to be irritating. > >> (b)? Extra heat > >Not a problem in winter (except for the effect on system reliability).? More >of a difficulty in summer. > >> (c)? Total cost is more > >Not necessarily.? I've paid at most nominal amounts for most if not all of my >older equipment although I have sometimes had to invest a little more for the >parts and peripherals I occasionally need.? I am not part of the crowd that >collects old equipment hoping for it to increase in value. > >There would be an incremental cost to the world and the environment if I was to >purchase hardware and software from companies producing the latest equipment >and running the latest bugware. > >> (d)? Slower CPU > >If it's fast enough, I am not bothered by how much faster it could be. > >> (e)? Slower disk I/O > >Same. > >> (f)? Slower ethernet > >Same. > >> (g)? Less disk space > >I am fairly disorganised.? Less disk space gives me an incentive to keep >things tidy and get rid of clutter. > >I am slightly more worried about reliability of old disk hardware. However, >I've managed to keep ahead of the disks that have died on me so far. > >> (h)? Smell, touch and feel of original hardware > >I like the touch and feel of the original software as well as the hardware. >If the hardware I want is not available and a good emulator is, I'll use >the emulator to experience the software.? I'll still use something pretty old >to run the emulator on though. > >Regards, >Peter Coghlan. > > > > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 07:32:17 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 13:32:17 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 116, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: <1366027742.58046.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1366027742.58046.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 15 April 2013 13:09, Tom Sparks wrote: > > apple inc has made thetransition through a group of cpus then there is hope > (6502 -> 68k -> PPC -> intel) That is not quite fair. There was no connection, hardware or software, between Apple's 6502 line and its later 68000 lines. Apple had about 5 desktop product lines: Apple I (was there any Apple 2 compatibility there?) Apple II -> IIgs (6502 -> 65816) Apple III (not forward or backwards compatible with anything else, was it?) Apple Lisa Apple Mac (68K -> PowerPC -> x86) Plus the Workgroup Servers, some of which were essentially IBM RS/6000s and couldn't run any form of MacOS). Then there are its multiple ARM lines: Newton iPhone/iPad And the AppleTV which has gone from x86 to ARM. So, yes, 3-step migration, but no 4-step one. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From stock at csgeeks.org Mon Apr 15 07:43:05 2013 From: stock at csgeeks.org (Matthew Stock) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 08:43:05 -0400 Subject: New hardware project... In-Reply-To: <002401ce39d0$341d9da0$9c58d8e0$@internode.on.net> References: <516BDD05.70904@csgeeks.org> <002401ce39d0$341d9da0$9c58d8e0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 7:56 AM, Kevin Parker wrote: > Hi Matt - while I really liked watching what you did and watching it fire > up > I'm interested in the RGB to VGA converter you used as I have quite a few > legacy machines but a shortage of old monitors but no shortage of VGA > screens. > Kevin, The CoCo uses a fairly simple signal that's similar to CGA in many respects. The main issue I had was the fact that it uses separate H and V sync signals instead of a composite sync. The board I purchased and that you see in the video is similar to this ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/RGB-CGA-EGA-YUV-to-VGA-Arcade-HD-Video-Converter-Board-abb-/221211808609?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3381405361). While it supports separate sync signals, it won't capture at 15kHz. So I found a schematic at http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.htmlon how to build a simple composite sync, fed that into the converter board, and it worked like a champ. That little board isn't visible in the video, but I home etched it. Both conversion boards run off of a small 5v switching wall wart. Total cost was about $30 and a little time and soldering. Hope that helps. -Matt From david at hheng.plus.com Mon Apr 15 07:21:30 2013 From: david at hheng.plus.com (David Humphries) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 13:21:30 +0100 Subject: Hardware vs Simh References: Message-ID: <001f01ce39d3$c3246cb0$0c03a8c0@HHE8> For me also its the hardware that I get the most pleasure outoff. Pouring over the drawings/scope/La for houres to find out exactly what ic is cousing the ISZ to not skip, or wher the middle 4 bits of the AC have gone to is the fun bit and the sence of achivement when you first see the os8 dot promt on a 40 year old 8 is hard to beat. Quite waht i will do when I get everything fixed i dont know but thats a long way of yet ( MTBF 1 week and rising )! DaveH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 9:23 PM Subject: Re: Hardware vs Simh >> Isn't that the fun of computing. There is a whole spectrum of what folks >> enjoy, and wouldn't the world be a boring place if it wasn't so. I am > > Well, that's certainly true of _classic_ computing... And it's great!. > > This is a very wide hobby, with all sorts of ways to enjoy. The fact that > different people enjoy differnt aspects doens't mean that some are right > and soem are wrong, or that some are 'better' than others. It means they > enjoy different things, nothing more. > > _I_ can't see the appeal of running an emulator for some 1980's home > computer and then writing programs in BASIC, when there are much better > languages and debugging systems available for PCs. But the fact that _I_ > can't see the appeal is a problem with me, not with those that enjoy it. > > I am quite sure that there are pletny of people who can't se the appeal > of staring at the 'scope and logic analyser for horse. Of burnign your > fingers on an overheating part. On spending a few hours in the grrage > egettign shoered in oil and mettla turnings as you make a new part for > the printing terminal. But that's what _I_ enjoy... > > -tony > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5744 - Release Date: 04/14/13 > From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Apr 15 07:55:54 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 13:55:54 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 116, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: References: <1366027742.58046.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 15 April 2013 13:32, Liam Proven wrote: > On 15 April 2013 13:09, Tom Sparks wrote: > That is not quite fair. There was no connection, hardware or software, > between Apple's 6502 line and its later 68000 lines. > > Apple had about 5 desktop product lines: > > Apple I (was there any Apple 2 compatibility there?) > Apple II -> IIgs (6502 -> 65816) > Apple III (not forward or backwards compatible with anything else, was it?) > Apple Lisa > Apple Mac (68K -> PowerPC -> x86) > > Plus the Workgroup Servers, some of which were essentially IBM > RS/6000s and couldn't run any form of MacOS). Well, my 32 bit Mac Mini has been abandonded by Apple a few versions ago, as Mac OS/X is now 64 bit only. Funny, I can still get versions of Windows or Linux that support it, no problems. The transition from 68000 to PowerPC was hardly what you'd call smooth either. Several versions of System 7 were, well, absolutely unusable garbage. Running (nearly) the whole OS though an emulator is not what I'd call smooth. (; -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Gregor Samsa awoke one morning to discover that he had been transformed into a giant cockroach." Nah, it's too good. --Max Bialystock From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 08:11:28 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 08:11:28 -0500 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <095F1FE8-B9F9-49C0-AF78-EA553CB81FAB@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> <1663FDEB-7A74-4FD7-9C6F-A6C685376945@gmail.com> <516B4168.30904@gmail.com> <095F1FE8-B9F9-49C0-AF78-EA553CB81FAB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516BFC80.1050107@gmail.com> On 04/14/2013 09:23 PM, David Riley wrote: >> Unfortunately, it's also confirmed that I've got a dead PSU; I've got >> no +5V on the standby/TRKL line at all. I've done a few basic checks >> for open diodes, transistors etc. on the AC input side, and things >> seem OK there. >> >> I think I have a spare ATX PSU from a PC somewhere, so I may try that >> if I can contrive something to marry up the different power-on signal >> (or I suppose I could just hit the power switch on the back of the >> Apple and then turn the PSU on manually, just for testing purposes) - >> there's probably no point my spending time fixing the Apple's PSU if >> the system board is toast anyway... > > A simple open-collector inverter made from a general-purpose NPN > transistor should do fine. Yes, should do - although I'm leaning toward just faking it for a simple test. Connect up ATX PSU so that the Apple has +5V standby, then hit power switch on the Apple, then hook the PSU's PS_ON line to ground to turn the supply on. I'll definitely be looking at fixing the Apple's PSU fault though if it seems that the system board is alive (this era of Apple isn't really my thing, but OTOH vintage computers of any description are almost impossible to find here, so it doesn't feel right to give up on it!). Although, maybe I should look at home much a keyboard's going to cost me first... :-) Oh, having pulled the sub-woofer out, there's some rust on the chassis beneath; it makes me wonder if the machine got wet at some point and that killed it (with the battery corrosion coming later). cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 08:22:41 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 09:22:41 -0400 Subject: 11/53, was Re: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516BCFEA.8010304@verizon.net> References: <516B09B3.6010304@verizon.net> <516B138F.6090401@neurotica.com> <516BCFEA.8010304@verizon.net> Message-ID: <516BFF21.10906@neurotica.com> On 04/15/2013 06:01 AM, allison wrote: >>>> A BA23 or BA123 chassis. Would others work as well? >>>> A CPU with separate I/D space. 11/23, 11/53, 11/73, 11/83 or 11/93 >>>> would work with the Q-bus chassis above. >> > >>> the 11/53 is a system designation. the CPUs are F11 (11/23), >>> J11 (11/73, 83, 93). >> >> Nope...11/53 is a J11 on a *completely different* CPU board, which >> includes onboard memory. >> > Nope. > > When you say PDP-11/53 your talking a system designator. If you start > talking the CPU only > you use different terms like KJA11. Well, YOU do. ;) I nod to your vast DEC experience and former employment, but I do have a bit myself. "11/53 as a system designator" is open to interpretation, IMO. What other machines were KDJ11-D boards used in, for example? Except, of course, for the DECserver-500 and -550, but that "barely" counts, as the ROMs are different. There's also the bizarreness over "what constitutes an 11/83"...is it 18MHz vs. 15MHz, or PMI vs. non-PMI? Most (all?) quad-wide 15MHz KDJ11-B boards support PMI memory, so the distinction can't just be "supports PMI"...but howabout "populated with PMI?" It's not just 15MHz vs. 18MHz, as very late 11/73s shipped with 18MHz CPUs. DEC didn't always do things consistently, and they didn't always follow their own rules. > Oh, PDP-11/53s aka Micro-11 in the ba23 > pedestal case I have one of those here, not in the pedestal shroud though; it's in a rack. I like that system a lot; it's running RSTS/E v10.1 on an RD54 with a TSV05. > was often a KDF11B or as some here call it an 11/23+. There's also a BA11-SA labeled "PDP-11/23 PLUS". > And yes there are several boards that are J11 cpu with and without memory > (and PMI memory). > I have a few. Both the initial KDAJ11 and later. Same here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 08:31:52 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 09:31:52 -0400 Subject: Rejecting the cult of waste - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <516C0148.7030505@neurotica.com> On 04/14/2013 10:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> I don't throw things away because I don't have a use for it [...] >> >> Agreed. My parents were Depression-era kids, and it shows in some of >> the attitudes I got from them. "Use it up, wear it out, make it do-- > > That is what I got from my parents, and I thank them every day for it. Same here, though it wasn't really spelled out like that for me. It was more of the lifestyle I grew up in. We were poor, yet we wanted for nothing, and life was good. > The dominant culture thinks nothing of discarding working, useful things. > When it comes to electronics, it is fairly certain we junk far more stuff in > perfect working order, than faulty stuff. > > Our only consolation is that one day, we will have to stop doing this. It's a > very finite rope. And boy, will we feel dumb then. I doubt we will. The vast majority of us will be too dumb, or too sedated by following sports or the escapades of Lindsay Lohan to notice. (which is, of course, the point of their existence) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 15 08:51:39 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 08:51:39 -0500 Subject: 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS - craigslist ad In-Reply-To: <516BAD7B.8020909@gmail.com> References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> <516B77E7.7040008@sbcglobal.net> <516BAD7B.8020909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201304151353.r3FDrHVa016577@mx1.ezwind.net> At 02:34 AM 4/15/2013, Dave Wade wrote: >At that time I am also pretty sure it would be Analogue. Mind you the model "DUMKOPF 1" smells slightly. Sounds perfectly 1954 to me. I found pictures (by googling "dumbkopf 1" with the 'b'): http://community-2.webtv.net/@HH!E2!2F!CB23D2C5AC8D/ARCHAICAUDIO/WESTERNELECTRIC/page11.html And it looks like it was discussed on this list in June 2004. http://marc.info/?t=108686424500004&r=1&w=2 - John From tsg at bonedaddy.net Mon Apr 15 08:58:08 2013 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 09:58:08 -0400 Subject: 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS - craigslist ad In-Reply-To: References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> <516B77E7.7040008@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130415135808.GA23023@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * William Donzelli [130415 01:22]: > > A very interesting Craigslist ad. Way over my budget though. > > > > 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS, MADE AT M.I.T. MODEL DUMKOPF > > 1 USED FOR PLOT INTERCEPT OF MISSILES AND ARTILLERY. $100K. CALL2025279501 > > I have never heard of this one, but my guess is that it is just some > kind of analog computer for mortar tracking that never escaped an MIT > lab. Neat, but not $100K neat. Model DUMKOPF huh? Noun Dummkopf m (genitive Dummkopfes or Dummkopfs, plural Dummk??pfe) a fool, an idiot From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 08:58:44 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 09:58:44 -0400 Subject: 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS - craigslist ad In-Reply-To: <201304151353.r3FDrHVa016577@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> <516B77E7.7040008@sbcglobal.net> <516BAD7B.8020909@gmail.com> <201304151353.r3FDrHVa016577@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > I found pictures (by googling "dumbkopf 1" with the 'b'): Oh....that guy... I avoid him at all costs. -- Will From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 09:00:47 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 07:00:47 -0700 Subject: 11/53, was Re: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516BCFEA.8010304@verizon.net> References: <516B09B3.6010304@verizon.net> <516B138F.6090401@neurotica.com> <516BCFEA.8010304@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 3:01 AM, allison wrote: > > When you say PDP-11/53 your talking a system designator. If you start > talking the CPU only > you use different terms like KJA11. Oh, PDP-11/53s aka Micro-11 in the ba23 > pedestal case > was often a KDF11B or as some here call it an 11/23+. > Would a system with an M8189 KDF11-B CPU module really ever be called a PDP-11/53 instead of a PDP-11/23? Or would a system only ever be called a PDP-11/53 when it has an M7554 KDJ11-D CPU module, or also maybe with an M7554 KDJ11-S with the appropriate firmware? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 09:16:53 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 10:16:53 -0400 Subject: 1954 VACUUM TUBE COMPUTER 7 FT. TALL, 700 LBS - craigslist ad In-Reply-To: <20130415135808.GA23023@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <201304150126.VAA18332@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <516B6BCB.60704@telegraphics.com.au> <516B77E7.7040008@sbcglobal.net> <20130415135808.GA23023@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: > Model DUMKOPF huh? > > Noun > Dummkopf m (genitive Dummkopfes or Dummkopfs, plural Dummk?pfe) > a fool, an idiot Using webtv qualifies being a fool. -- Will From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 09:25:43 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 07:25:43 -0700 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> <201304141847.OAA16873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 3:42 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 14, 2013, at 2:47 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> One is hardware compatability. If you have a device whose host >> interface consists of some half-dozen Unibus slots with custom >> backplane wiring (I used such a thing back in the '80s), emulators, in >> general, just don't cut it. (In principle there's no reason they >> couldn't. But if anyone makes a bridge allowing use of Qbus - or >> Unibus, or Sbus, or etc - hardware on a more modern system, I really >> want to know about it....) > > Oh, that absolutely exists, pretty much for that exact purpose. > > http://www.comwaretech.com/PDP-11/DEC-PDP-11-emulator.html > > Probably expensive as hell, but it's meant for people who need > the existing hardware to work because the cost or other risk > of engineering a replacement system is even greater. Also, Strobe Data: http://www.strobedata.com/home/ospreyguide.html No idea if those products are still available. From price list snapshots which show up in online searches looks like these configurations were somewhere in the $20K - $50K range. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 15 09:45:27 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 07:45:27 -0700 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: References: <2CA4F5DF-114D-4F37-B529-63185A74DD05@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4C3B2F14-8DA8-4005-8197-9DB7760492D7@shiresoft.com> On Apr 14, 2013, at 9:27 PM, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: > > > On 14 Apr 2013, at 23:50, "Guy Sotomayor" wrote: > >> >> >> On Apr 14, 2013, at 12:38 PM, William Barnett-Lewis wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Ultimately I'd like to have a small collection of real classic >>> hardware - a Symbolics XL1200, a Vax (or Vaxstation) 4000 & a PDP-11. >>> I'll work on that last one for now and deal with emulation for the >>> rest :) >> >> If you want a Symbolics, I suggest you get in touch with David Schmidt at >> sales at symbolics-dks.com. He'll happily sell you just about any Symbolics >> you want and it'll work too! > > Yes, but for how much? ;) Here's part of the email from David that contains the pricing: We do not have any NXP1000 or XL1200 (speed factor 6) for sale at this time because the components are needed for spares to service our maintenance contracts. We offer a MacIvory model 3 workstation (speed factor 6). This is a Quadra 650 with 60 MB of RAM, a 9 GB SCSI disk, CD drive, built-in ethernet and video, Apple extended keyboard with Symbolics keyboard template and a one-button mouse. It includes a MacIvory model 3 co-processor board and 8 MWords of memory on the MacIvory. The disk has Mac O/S 8, all Symbolics software and most sources pre-loaded on it. The cost for this unit is $3,600. An adapter to allow the Quadra to connect to standard VGA monitors is included. You will have to provide a monitor with at least 1024 x 768 resolution. As a lower cost option you can get the same workstation configuration with a MacIvory model 2 co-processor (speed factor 2) and 8 MB (1.3 MWord) of NuBus memory for the MacIvory for $1,800. We do not have any NuBus memory cards or ADB adapter boxes available for sale. If you really want a collector's item, we have a number of different 36xx machines (speed factor 1) ranging in weight up to 400 pounds that we will sell starting at $975. The smallest of these machines is the 3620, which is a deskside machine (9 x 18 x 25) that runs off standard 120V power and weighs about 70 pounds, not including the monitor. The standard configuration is 4 MWords with 760 MB of ESDI disk and a 17" monochrome console with keyboard and 3-button mouse. You can add another 760 MB disk for an additional $150. You can upgrade to the 19" premium monochrome monitor for an additional $300. The major problem with all of these machines is disks. They do not have a SCSI bus and use very old ESDI, SMD or ST506 disks. The most disk space you can get on one of them is 1.5 GB, which barely makes for a useable environment once you load all the software and documentation files. Shipping can be expensive. I do not recommend shipping this overseas. Besides costing well over a thousand dollars to pack and ship, these are old machines that do not travel well. Even in the US, I prefer to have them picked up or delivered by me. I could not guarantee that they would be working on arrival. We provide a 90 day Return-To-Factory warranty on all equipment we sell. You are responsible for all shipping costs and there is a $50 crating fee for the XL1200 and 36xx machines, unless you pick up the machine from our location in Burke, VA. Payment is required in advance. We can accept credit card payments through the Payment Pal system with a 3% surcharge (4% for international). > >> >> We're still trying to get the 8620 I bought from him going (seems the console >> is infested with a PS eating gremlin). >> >> TTFN - Guy > > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 15 10:51:09 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:51:09 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <1666308.jQOaSuDpxV@i5.sytse.net> References: <9169276.ldpx7PyGGZ@i5.sytse.net> <5B22F2A9-2FB3-4161-BE3C-6263A043F587@gewt.net> <1666308.jQOaSuDpxV@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <516C21ED.1000908@sbcglobal.net> On 04/14/2013 05:37 PM, Sytse van Slooten wrote: > On Sunday, April 14, 2013 21:21:18 Cory Smelosky wrote: >> On 14 Apr 2013, at 16:55, "cclist" wrote: >>> On Sunday, April 14, 2013 21:04:38 Dave wrote: >>>> There are also implementions in FPGA of >>>> several other CPUs, including PDP/8 and PDP/11 (but not sure how >>>> complete the PDP/11 ones are). >>> >>> My fpga PDP11 is very complete. You can run all the historic operating >>> systems on it, including 2.11BSD. And you can even hook it up to >>> ethernet. No more need for a pc to simulate. >> >> I bet I could connect it directly to my VT420, too. ;) > > Sure you could! > >> >>> Read about it at http://pdp2011.sytse.net/ Very interesting. Has anyone fitted it _inside_ a VT42)? Yes the case would need some modification to make it work... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Apr 15 11:53:23 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 12:53:23 -0400 Subject: 11/53, was Re: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516BFF21.10906@neurotica.com> References: <516B09B3.6010304@verizon.net> <516B138F.6090401@neurotica.com> <516BCFEA.8010304@verizon.net> <516BFF21.10906@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516C3083.8050805@verizon.net> On 04/15/2013 09:22 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/15/2013 06:01 AM, allison wrote: >>>>> A BA23 or BA123 chassis. Would others work as well? >>>>> A CPU with separate I/D space. 11/23, 11/53, 11/73, 11/83 or 11/93 >>>>> would work with the Q-bus chassis above. >>>> the 11/53 is a system designation. the CPUs are F11 (11/23), >>>> J11 (11/73, 83, 93). >>> Nope...11/53 is a J11 on a *completely different* CPU board, which >>> includes onboard memory. >>> >> Nope. >> >> When you say PDP-11/53 your talking a system designator. If you start >> talking the CPU only >> you use different terms like KJA11. > Well, YOU do. ;) I nod to your vast DEC experience and former employment, > but I do have a bit myself. "11/53 as a system designator" is open to > interpretation, IMO. What other machines were KDJ11-D boards used in, for > example? Except, of course, for the DECserver-500 and -550, but that > "barely" counts, as the ROMs are differe But they were all Decserver-5xx. > > There's also the bizarreness over "what constitutes an 11/83"...is it 18MHz > vs. 15MHz, or PMI vs. non-PMI? Most (all?) quad-wide 15MHz KDJ11-B boards > support PMI memory, so the distinction can't just be "supports PMI"...but > howabout "populated with PMI?" It's not just 15MHz vs. 18MHz, as very late > 11/73s shipped with 18MHz CPUs. Ah, foo, you cracked the code. Yes DEC could be rather wild about that stuff. Hence the joke: Q: Whats the differnce between a used car salesman and a DEC salesman? A: One knows he is lying. So you'd see a build request for 11/53 (j11 powered) and the BOM requested as an 11/23B configuration. > DEC didn't always do things consistently, and they didn't always follow > their own rules. > >> Oh, PDP-11/53s aka Micro-11 in the ba23 >> pedestal case > I have one of those here, not in the pedestal shroud though; it's in a > rack. I like that system a lot; it's running RSTS/E v10.1 on an RD54 with a > TSV05. I have one from my dec days, new then has F11, not J11 but the label and all says 11/53... gah! >> was often a KDF11B or as some here call it an 11/23+. > There's also a BA11-SA labeled "PDP-11/23 PLUS". Yep I have one of those. If you peel the label it says PDP-11/03!?!?! >> And yes there are several boards that are J11 cpu with and without memory >> (and PMI memory). >> I have a few. Both the initial KDAJ11 and later. > Same here. Never minding what they morphed to in the field... Remember, Field circus had the majik words for some of those hacks, "unsupported configuration". Fun, you bet. Allison > -Dave > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 15 12:34:16 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:34:16 -0600 Subject: Calcomp plotters (was: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's) In-Reply-To: <516BACF6.2030804@gmail.com> References: <201304150243.r3F2gvd2053545@mx1.ezwind.net> <516BACF6.2030804@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <516BACF6.2030804 at gmail.com>, Dave Wade writes: > On 15/04/2013 03:42, John Foust wrote: > > So how often do these original CDC "Mona Lisa By the Numbers" posters > > come up for sale? Or the old circa 1960 Calcomp 30-inch plotters? > > > > - John > > > Never seen either. Even the more common Calcomp 12" plotters are like > hens teeth. I've got a couple of each. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From pet4032 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 12:50:51 2013 From: pet4032 at gmail.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 13:50:51 -0400 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! Message-ID: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> 17,827 Euros is about $23,303 US dollars. http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271183784636 Cheers, Bryan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 15 13:44:04 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:44:04 -0700 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> References: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> On 04/15/2013 10:50 AM, Bryan Pope wrote: > 17,827 Euros is about $23,303 US dollars. > > http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271183784636 It's becoming increasingly clear that this field of vintage computing is becoming more the territory of the "put it in a glass case" folks than for hobbyists. Particularly when I saw a copy of CP/M-86 for the IBM PC sell for $250 a short time ago. Does this happen to other interest areas? Teddy bears or Beanie Babies as under-glass exhibits rather than as toys for children? --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Apr 15 14:17:49 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 15:17:49 -0400 Subject: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed Message-ID: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> I won an old 486 EISA motherboard on ebay missing a few chips most importantly is the BIOS. Mylex MAE486-33 Rev P2, anyone have the BIOS file for it? Manual says: l Verify that the BIOS chip is a 28-pin, 27512 chip, with a 200 ns access time. W For the MAE486 - verify that the BIOS chip is marked "EISA BIOS 486 MAE rev xx" I found the bios for the MBE486 online but that's a different board. And I did find the EISA config files. I think it is missing the keyboard controller, and 2 Dallas RTC chips as well (have one of them at least). Working EISA 486 are getting hard to find. Thanks TZ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 14:23:56 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 16:23:56 -0300 Subject: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <8AB7B78C942E4F7A8C4ABA6C874E80D4@tababook> It isn't THAT hard to find in Brazil. I'll keep a look and post here if I find something --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: TeoZ To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 4:17 PM Subject: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed I won an old 486 EISA motherboard on ebay missing a few chips most importantly is the BIOS. Mylex MAE486-33 Rev P2, anyone have the BIOS file for it? Manual says: l Verify that the BIOS chip is a 28-pin, 27512 chip, with a 200 ns access time. W For the MAE486 - verify that the BIOS chip is marked "EISA BIOS 486 MAE rev xx" I found the bios for the MBE486 online but that's a different board. And I did find the EISA config files. I think it is missing the keyboard controller, and 2 Dallas RTC chips as well (have one of them at least). Working EISA 486 are getting hard to find. Thanks TZ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 15 14:24:56 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:24:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: from "Cory Smelosky" at Apr 14, 13 08:44:20 pm Message-ID: > > So do I. I much prefer to diagnose and rpeair faults logically, aomethign > > you can do with the older machines. > > Exactly! You can actually get at the individual parts! Everything > isn't 200% integrated. ;) Not only can you get at the parts, you can also get the aprts. I have foudn it much easier to get a replacement TTL IC for a PDP11 (or wahtever) than an ASIC for a modern PC. But as I said last night, the Qbus PDP11s have custom chip or chipset processors and you can't 'get inside' them very easily. If you want to do that you realyl want ot find oen of the older Unibus machines > > > > > I am currnetly having a conversation with a guy in the Netherlands who is > > repairing a machine of a similar vintage (not a PDP11). He's borrowed a > > logic analyser and we're goign thoguh it a the level of 'Well, in this > > microisntrucionm, the program counter is fed to one inptu of the LAU, a > > constand 1 is fed to the other intput, so as to add 1 to the PC ot > > increment it. Now let's see if that's what's going on...' (OK, it's not > > quite that, the machine in question is bit-serial...) > > > > HE seems ot be loving it. Being able to see how registers are selected, > > how data flows from one to another, and so on . > > Very interesting! I don't have too much low-level hardware knowledge > (yet. I intend to! I'm still young.) but that still sounds extremely fun. The machine in question is an HP9830. Althoguh sold as a calcualtor, I think that was jsut for marketting reasons. It has a QWERTY keyboard, a (1 line) alphanumeric display and programs in BASIC. It is very hard to claim that that is not a computer. Although it's an all-in-one desktop machine, the processor is built from lots of simple chips .There are 4 boards of TTL that are normally considered to be the processor (these boards are also used in the HP9810, 9820 and 9821 machines) together with a couple of bords to interface the bit-serial processr to RO mand RAM. of course there are boards to drive the display, boards to oeprte the itnernal tape drive, a keyboard encoder and a power suppyl too. But let's stick wit hthe processor for the momebnt, It's 16 bit, bit-serial. There are 2 accumualtors (A and B), the program counter, a 4it extension register (E), and then some inte4nral registers : M = Memroy address, T = Memroy data, Q ('Qualifier') = current machine isntruction (normally) . The procerssor is controlled by 256 28 bit words of mcirocode, stroed in ROMs on one of the PCBs. My friend i nthe Netherlands has schematics, microcode source and memory state machien listings. So far he's managed to fidn a problem wit hthe memroy state machien (I think one of the flip-flops wasn't), and a problem wit hte 'S input multipexer' -- a multiplexer circuit that feeds the M, R, cosntant 0 or constant 1 itno one of the ALU inputs. We now think there's a problem wit the 'R input multipleser' whcih feeds the processor regsters or a constant 0 or 1 into the other input of the ALU. So w'ere workign through that. We know the (complex) CPU clock is running properly and that the microcode is following a possibly-correct sequence. When you first start working on the internals of a processor at this sort of level there is a lot to learn. But it does all make sense in the end, or at least it did for me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 15 14:29:26 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:29:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/53, was Re: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <62FBD5DF-7625-454A-B86B-67CFC7E24ECC@gewt.net> from "Cory Smelosky" at Apr 14, 13 09:07:06 pm Message-ID: > Now I want to start a discussion on the timeline of when memory > became?"onboard"/integrated for some reason?I'm curious as to who tried > it first. ;) I asusme that you mean that there is a single PCB containing the proceessor and memory. For PDP11s, I would guess the first was the original LSI11. It had 4K (IIRC) of RAM o nthe processor board. All older PDP11s weren't even single-board processors. For other machines, I would guess one of the microprocessor evaluation boards was the first to hae the CPU chip and memroy on one PCB. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 15 14:37:46 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:37:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> from "MG" at Apr 15, 13 02:40:06 am Message-ID: > If you ask me, computing itself is something of the past. What is > actually 'computed' nowadays on the tons of worthless 'smart phones' > and other nonsensical wastes of cycles and electricity? I think I've mentioend this before, but whenever I see an advert for a computer, or some poor salesman tries to sell me one, they tell me it can store all my photos [1], store all my msuic [2]. etc. Not a single word about programming it . And yet that's waht I want a computer for. [1] Oh yes? What, even 5*4 sheet film? [2] And 1/4" recording tape? > > I'm not even near as old as some of those posting here and I'm > already bittered (or was, certainly, more so a while back). > I've come to accept that it's a consumerist culture where > everything is disposable. (In this supposedly 'more and more' > "green" world.) So, I've started not to care much and not > attach to much to a computer. I actively look for things I can repair (even simple, cheap things) and flatly refuse ot buy any product consint more than, say \pounds 10.00 that I cannot fix. If this means I have to use older, better-built things, so be it. > > I do have these SGIs here to remind me of better times, with > one still very capable (SGI Tezro) to actually do some work > on. My classic computers do all I need to do.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 15 15:08:47 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:08:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <7a6001ad0c07c43f5d960af08f4a4dc0@otter.se> from "jonas@otter.se" at Apr 15, 13 12:26:09 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > But I would also argue that nobody (or at least very few people) wil > > leb > > equally interested in hardware and software. If you are a hardware > > person, you will want to ru nthe real hardawre, you will want to laod > > the > > alignment pack and connect the 'scope to the read preamplifer. You > > will > > want to have a logic analyser conencted ot the CPU microcode address > > bus > > and wacch how it executes machine instructions. > > > > Then I would be one of those very few. I find hardware and system Excellent! > software (operating systems, database managers etc) equally interesting. > Actually, my view is that they are to a great extent two different > incarnations of the same thing: The hardware is a physical machine that > executes programs, the operating system is a kind of virtual machine Ah, but to me the hardare is just an interestign electronic circuit that happens to execute programs. In otehr words I think of the gates and flip-flops, not the program instrucions. I think this is why I find the peripehrals to be as interesting as the CPU in a lot of caes. Ubnderstnading the cotnrol state machine of the HP9866 printer was as interestign to me as understandignthe microcode (and sequencer) of the HP9830 that drives it. > which executes user programs. Then there is virtual machine software, > that is also very interesting. > > I wrote a very simple operating system once in my career, now I am > playing with writing another one in my spare time. Some day I will most When i have some spare time I really must try to write an OS. I've never done it, and I really shouldn't 'knock it' before I try it. > likely also design and built my own processor, whether with discrete > logic or an FPGA I am not sure, perhaps both. > > And then the physical experience of an actual old machine running is > something special, quite like driving an old car or riding on a steam > train. Agreed... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 15 14:45:51 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:45:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> from "Cory Smelosky" at Apr 15, 13 01:02:32 am Message-ID: > However...with phones? I replaced that pretty quickly (largely because > I don't really like Android and Google are evil) I would be very happy without a cellular telephone at all. I would certainly be happier if others with them could use them responsibly, which means not shoutign int otehm for half an hour on public transport. And which means not fiddlign with them when waling along the public highway so they can't see where they're going. And for landline phoens, I've got plenty of 700 series (1060's, 1970's) that work fine and a 332 (1940's) in need of a bit of restoration. But that I can do. > > If the hardware was made past a certain year...I don't find it worth > saving because it won't last. Like modern VCR/DVD combos? Those are > utter trash, they fail after a year and they're not worth fixing because > it's like they're almost made out of paper or something. I hate planned > obsolescence with a burning passion...I don't throw things away because Ditto.I actively look fo things that I can repair, can get proepr docuemtnaion on, and can get parts for. > I don't have a use for it (unless it was $10 or less and was as > disposable as toilet paper), I usually save it for later or give it to a > good home. (The phone is a perfect example. I replaced the phone, but I > kept the old one. It's useful as a wifi remote control for things.) > > Okay, I probably won't repair a microwave due to the dangers, but that's > why I like SHARP Microwaves...those pretty much don't fail. ;) I don't ahve a microwave oven, I prefer resistance heating... But I don';t think I would refuse to repair one. Yes, there are _letahl_ votlages in there, so you have to go carefully and check everything as you go. The only thing I 'own' thet I don't fix myself is my cat :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 15 14:50:57 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:50:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: AE GSRAM Plus- DRAMS needed 1024x1, Total of 40 needed In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Apr 14, 13 06:13:08 pm Message-ID: > > Im looking for 40 dram chips for my AE GSRam Plus to expand it to the=20 > > full 6MB > >=20 > > It takes 1024x1 DRAM Chips > >=20 > > Thanks > >=20 > > Steve > You mean your only 5K bytes from a full 6MB I suspect (as you do) that a 'K' has been left out... Even so, 40 chips is a strange number. Does the board do error-correction or soemthing? If they are 1024*1 chips, then just about the only common one (for sutiable values of 'common') is the 1103 or 1130A (the former needs precharge, the latter doesn't). If anyone knows of a _cheap_ sourve of those, I am half-looking for soem to upgrace my 9830 to 8K words. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 15 15:36:19 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:36:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Rejecting the cult of waste - Re: Computing the old way - Is In-Reply-To: <516C0148.7030505@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 15, 13 09:31:52 am Message-ID: > > On 04/14/2013 10:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >>> I don't throw things away because I don't have a use for it [...] > >> > >> Agreed. My parents were Depression-era kids, and it shows in some of > >> the attitudes I got from them. "Use it up, wear it out, make it do-- > > > > That is what I got from my parents, and I thank them every day for it. > > Same here, though it wasn't really spelled out like that for me. It was > more of the lifestyle I grew up in. We were poor, yet we wanted for nothing, > and life was good. And here. My parents would always try to fix things. You know, when the washing machine leaked, my father would replace seals or hoses as appropatie. When the overn didn't heat up, he'd test the elements with a multimeter and repalce the open-circuit one, and so on. I was never _epxlicitiy_ told this was the thing to do, but I guess I thought there was no other eay to do it. And I've taken it ratehr further... > > > The dominant culture thinks nothing of discarding working, useful things. > > When it comes to electronics, it is fairly certain we junk far more stuff in > > perfect working order, than faulty stuff. > > > > Our only consolation is that one day, we will have to stop doing this. It's a > > very finite rope. And boy, will we feel dumb then. > > I doubt we will. The vast majority of us will be too dumb, or too sedated > by following sports or the escapades of Lindsay Lohan to notice. (which is, > of course, the point of their existence) And those who have not had their brains damaged by playing or watching sports or watching most TV programmes are the people who Alredy fix things... -tony From b4 at gewt.net Mon Apr 15 16:18:49 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:18:49 -0000 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> <> Message-ID: <516C6EB9.1000304@gewt.net> On 04/15/2013 03:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> If you ask me, computing itself is something of the past. What is >> actually 'computed' nowadays on the tons of worthless 'smart phones' >> and other nonsensical wastes of cycles and electricity? > > I think I've mentioend this before, but whenever I see an advert for a > computer, or some poor salesman tries to sell me one, they tell me it can > store all my photos [1], store all my msuic [2]. etc. Not a single word > about programming it . And yet that's waht I want a computer for. > > [1] Oh yes? What, even 5*4 sheet film? > > [2] And 1/4" recording tape? > > >> >> I'm not even near as old as some of those posting here and I'm >> already bittered (or was, certainly, more so a while back). >> I've come to accept that it's a consumerist culture where >> everything is disposable. (In this supposedly 'more and more' >> "green" world.) So, I've started not to care much and not >> attach to much to a computer. > > I actively look for things I can repair (even simple, cheap things) and > flatly refuse ot buy any product consint more than, say \pounds 10.00 > that I cannot fix. If this means I have to use older, better-built > things, so be it. I would do the same if I had more repair skill and an endless assortment of spare electronic components. I'm still acquiring stockpiles. ;) > >> >> I do have these SGIs here to remind me of better times, with >> one still very capable (SGI Tezro) to actually do some work >> on. > > My classic computers do all I need to do.... > > -tony > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From b4 at gewt.net Mon Apr 15 16:23:03 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:23:03 -0000 Subject: Hardware vs Simh References: <> Message-ID: <516C6FB7.7000506@gewt.net> On 04/15/2013 03:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> So do I. I much prefer to diagnose and rpeair faults logically, aomethign >>> you can do with the older machines. >> >> Exactly! You can actually get at the individual parts! Everything >> isn't 200% integrated. ;) > > Not only can you get at the parts, you can also get the aprts. I have > foudn it much easier to get a replacement TTL IC for a PDP11 (or > wahtever) than an ASIC for a modern PC. Yeah, finding a custom ASIC for a modern PC is damn near utterly impossible. ;) > > But as I said last night, the Qbus PDP11s have custom chip or chipset > processors and you can't 'get inside' them very easily. If you want to do > that you realyl want ot find oen of the older Unibus machines You can get at more components than a modern PC though but yeah, your point about an older UNIBUS system for that is correct. ;) > >> >>> >>> I am currnetly having a conversation with a guy in the Netherlands who is >>> repairing a machine of a similar vintage (not a PDP11). He's borrowed a >>> logic analyser and we're goign thoguh it a the level of 'Well, in this >>> microisntrucionm, the program counter is fed to one inptu of the LAU, a >>> constand 1 is fed to the other intput, so as to add 1 to the PC ot >>> increment it. Now let's see if that's what's going on...' (OK, it's not >>> quite that, the machine in question is bit-serial...) >>> >>> HE seems ot be loving it. Being able to see how registers are selected, >>> how data flows from one to another, and so on . >> >> Very interesting! I don't have too much low-level hardware knowledge >> (yet. I intend to! I'm still young.) but that still sounds extremely fun. > > The machine in question is an HP9830. Althoguh sold as a calcualtor, I > think that was jsut for marketting reasons. It has a QWERTY keyboard, a > (1 line) alphanumeric display and programs in BASIC. It is very hard to > claim that that is not a computer. Interesting! > > Although it's an all-in-one desktop machine, the processor is built from > lots of simple chips .There are 4 boards of TTL that are normally > considered to be the processor (these boards are also used in the HP9810, > 9820 and 9821 machines) together with a couple of bords to interface the > bit-serial processr to RO mand RAM. of course there are boards to drive > the display, boards to oeprte the itnernal tape drive, a keyboard > encoder and a power suppyl too. But let's stick wit hthe processor for > the momebnt, > > It's 16 bit, bit-serial. There are 2 accumualtors (A and B), the program > counter, a 4it extension register (E), and then some inte4nral registers > : M = Memroy address, T = Memroy data, Q ('Qualifier') = current machine > isntruction (normally) . The procerssor is controlled by 256 28 bit words > of mcirocode, stroed in ROMs on one of the PCBs. > > My friend i nthe Netherlands has schematics, microcode source and memory > state machien listings. So far he's managed to fidn a problem wit hthe > memroy state machien (I think one of the flip-flops wasn't), and a > problem wit hte 'S input multipexer' -- a multiplexer circuit that feeds > the M, R, cosntant 0 or constant 1 itno one of the ALU inputs. We now > think there's a problem wit the 'R input multipleser' whcih feeds the > processor regsters or a constant 0 or 1 into the other input of the ALU. > So w'ere workign through that. We know the (complex) CPU clock is running > properly and that the microcode is following a possibly-correct sequence. > > When you first start working on the internals of a processor at this sort > of level there is a lot to learn. But it does all make sense in the end, > or at least it did for me. I could probably do the same with the right knowledge and enough time! > > -tony > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 15 16:26:25 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 09:26:25 +1200 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> References: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> Message-ID: Yes. ..and to very rich people that kind of money is just pocket change. If it takes their fancy to own it, they will own it. We can lament it, but not much can be done. Tez On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 6:44 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/15/2013 10:50 AM, Bryan Pope wrote: > >> 17,827 Euros is about $23,303 US dollars. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/**eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=**271183784636 >> > > It's becoming increasingly clear that this field of vintage computing is > becoming more the territory of the "put it in a glass case" folks than for > hobbyists. > > Particularly when I saw a copy of CP/M-86 for the IBM PC sell for $250 a > short time ago. > > Does this happen to other interest areas? Teddy bears or Beanie Babies as > under-glass exhibits rather than as toys for children? > > --Chuck > > From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Apr 15 16:26:49 2013 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 13:26:49 -0800 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> References: <516c3dfb.7040508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7F404FF25E5.000009E7n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Yeah, 'investment grade' machines have been around some time now. One of the things I liked about our hobby was that it cost very little to get some interesting hardware. The move towards 'investment grade' hardware has raised prices of even some of the more common stuff, but what can you do? At least, none of the stuff that interests me goes higher than three figures (and it's been a long time since I've had to spend that much). I pity the poor bastards addicted to Lisa's, Altairs or [insert favorite investment-grade computer here]. I don't think any hobby is immune to this; it mostly matters on how many collectors are out there, and how much money they have to spend. Toy collecting didn't used to be such a big deal. Now you have 'investment grade' toys. Stamp collecting was a 'no big deal' hobby a century ago; now it's almost universally also considered an investment as well. N0body > -----Original Message----- > From: cclist at sydex.com > Sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:44:04 -0700 > To: > Subject: Re: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! > > On 04/15/2013 10:50 AM, Bryan Pope wrote: >> 17,827 Euros is about $23,303 US dollars. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271183784636 > > It's becoming increasingly clear that this field of vintage computing is > becoming more the territory of the "put it in a glass case" folks than > for hobbyists. > > Particularly when I saw a copy of CP/M-86 for the IBM PC sell for $250 a > short time ago. > > Does this happen to other interest areas? Teddy bears or Beanie Babies > as under-glass exhibits rather than as toys for children? > > --Chuck ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth From b4 at gewt.net Mon Apr 15 16:29:37 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:29:37 -0000 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? References: <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <> Message-ID: <516C7141.8060807@gewt.net> On 04/15/2013 03:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> However...with phones? I replaced that pretty quickly (largely because >> I don't really like Android and Google are evil) > > I would be very happy without a cellular telephone at all. I would > certainly be happier if others with them could use them responsibly, > which means not shoutign int otehm for half an hour on public transport. > And which means not fiddlign with them when waling along the public > highway so they can't see where they're going. I would agree as well, but due to very poor eyesight, a smartphone benefits me. > > And for landline phoens, I've got plenty of 700 series (1060's, 1970's) > that work fine and a 332 (1940's) in need of a bit of restoration. But > that I can do. Those will pretty much last forever. > >> >> If the hardware was made past a certain year...I don't find it worth >> saving because it won't last. Like modern VCR/DVD combos? Those are >> utter trash, they fail after a year and they're not worth fixing because >> it's like they're almost made out of paper or something. I hate planned >> obsolescence with a burning passion...I don't throw things away because > > Ditto.I actively look fo things that I can repair, can get proepr > docuemtnaion on, and can get parts for. Exactly! Which reminds me, I need to get around to looking at what failed on that '50s phonograph in the basement... > >> I don't have a use for it (unless it was $10 or less and was as >> disposable as toilet paper), I usually save it for later or give it to a >> good home. (The phone is a perfect example. I replaced the phone, but I >> kept the old one. It's useful as a wifi remote control for things.) >> >> Okay, I probably won't repair a microwave due to the dangers, but that's >> why I like SHARP Microwaves...those pretty much don't fail. ;) > > I don't ahve a microwave oven, I prefer resistance heating... But I > don';t think I would refuse to repair one. Yes, there are _letahl_ > votlages in there, so you have to go carefully and check everything as > you go. Understandable, there's just one here so I use it. > > The only thing I 'own' thet I don't fix myself is my cat :-) Yeah, manufacturers don't exactly release schematics for those. :) > > -tony > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 17:45:59 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 17:45:59 -0500 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> References: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> Message-ID: <516C8327.5070708@gmail.com> On 04/15/2013 01:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/15/2013 10:50 AM, Bryan Pope wrote: >> 17,827 Euros is about $23,303 US dollars. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271183784636 > > It's becoming increasingly clear that this field of vintage computing is > becoming more the territory of the "put it in a glass case" folks than for > hobbyists. > > Particularly when I saw a copy of CP/M-86 for the IBM PC sell for $250 a > short time ago. > > Does this happen to other interest areas? Teddy bears or Beanie Babies as > under-glass exhibits rather than as toys for children? I expect it's worse for us because to the majority computers are seen as complex beasts, and therefore it's hard to fix them when they do go wrong - and that's assuming that the failed part isn't pure unobtanium (or that pulls from working systems don't exist). Is there such a thing as an electronics restorer, in the same way that there are people who restore furniture, or rebuild vintage car engines etc.? (and who, in their line of work, can possibly make a needed part if one doesn't exist) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 17:47:36 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 17:47:36 -0500 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: References: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> Message-ID: <516C8388.7030103@gmail.com> On 04/15/2013 04:26 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Yes. ..and to very rich people that kind of money is just pocket change. > If it takes their fancy to own it, they will own it. We can lament it, > but not much can be done. Well, if money's not the driving factor, we can make an effort to sell/donate/trade with other enthusiasts, rather than listing on That Auction Site.... :-) From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Apr 15 17:48:45 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:48:45 -0400 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! References: <516c3dfb.7040508@gmail.com> <7F404FF25E5.000009E7n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "N0body H0me" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 5:26 PM Subject: Re: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! > > I don't think any hobby is immune to this; it mostly matters > on how many collectors are out there, and how much money they > have to spend. Toy collecting didn't used to be such a > big deal. Now you have 'investment grade' toys. Stamp > collecting was a 'no big deal' hobby a century ago; now > it's almost universally also considered an investment as > well. > Stamp collecting imploded and kids don't collect anymore, the only stuff worth anything is the ultra rare items the old collectors lusted after. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 17:51:49 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 17:51:49 -0500 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <7F404FF25E5.000009E7n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <516c3dfb.7040508@gmail.com> <7F404FF25E5.000009E7n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <516C8485.3040505@gmail.com> On 04/15/2013 04:26 PM, N0body H0me wrote: > > Yeah, 'investment grade' machines have been around some time > now. That I don't mind too much, because most of them have an equivalent (in terms of CPU, memory, goofy features etc.) that isn't seen as being wow-rare-look insanely valuable. The downside is, as you say, that the side effect of the really desirable stuff commanding higher prices is that it seems to have raised the price of everything else; I don't think that's entirely down to scarcity. cheers Jules From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 17:56:43 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:56:43 -0300 Subject: Hardware vs Simh References: <> <516C6FB7.7000506@gewt.net> Message-ID: <018D07E84D394DD5A045B1B3339BAF59@tababook> >Yeah, finding a custom ASIC for a modern PC is damn near utterly >impossible. ;) In Brazil - believe it or not - it is very common to find ASICs **brand new** and never used. Why? Because we repair motherboards! :oD From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 18:09:49 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:09:49 -0400 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <516C8327.5070708@gmail.com> References: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> <516C8327.5070708@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Is there such a thing as an electronics restorer, in the same way that there > are people who restore furniture, or rebuild vintage car engines etc.? (and > who, in their line of work, can possibly make a needed part if one doesn't > exist) Yes, but there is no money in it. The ones that can sustain a business restoring electronics do a large majority of their work in audio and guitar amps - and even then, they ain't eatin' steak for dinner. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 18:30:00 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:30:00 -0400 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <516C8327.5070708@gmail.com> References: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> <516C8327.5070708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516C8D78.2050905@neurotica.com> On 04/15/2013 06:45 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Is there such a thing as an electronics restorer, in the same way that there > are people who restore furniture, or rebuild vintage car engines etc.? (and > who, in their line of work, can possibly make a needed part if one doesn't > exist) Uh yeah. A lot of us do that sort of stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 15 18:32:58 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:32:58 -0400 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: References: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> <516C8327.5070708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516C8E2A.9060206@neurotica.com> On 04/15/2013 07:09 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Is there such a thing as an electronics restorer, in the same way that there >> are people who restore furniture, or rebuild vintage car engines etc.? (and >> who, in their line of work, can possibly make a needed part if one doesn't >> exist) > > Yes, but there is no money in it. The ones that can sustain a business > restoring electronics do a large majority of their work in audio and > guitar amps - and even then, they ain't eatin' steak for dinner. It's a labor of love if it's done at all. I do it for computer stuff, as do many (most?) of us. My friend Larry over in Ohio makes a reasonable living repairing guitar amps and effects pedals, but as you observed...there is no steak involved. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 15 18:40:22 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 16:40:22 -0700 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> References: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> Message-ID: At 11:44 AM -0700 4/15/13, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Does this happen to other interest areas? Teddy bears or Beanie >Babies as under-glass exhibits rather than as toys for children? Yeah, my daughter isn't too happy about not being allowed to take the collector Barbies out of their boxes (and they aren't her Barbie Dolls). She has no clue how many are packed away until she's old enough we don't have to worry about her getting too them. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 15 18:41:38 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 16:41:38 -0700 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: References: <516c3dfb.7040508@gmail.com> <7F404FF25E5.000009E7n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: At 6:48 PM -0400 4/15/13, TeoZ wrote: >>I don't think any hobby is immune to this; it mostly matters >>on how many collectors are out there, and how much money they >>have to spend. Toy collecting didn't used to be such a >>big deal. Now you have 'investment grade' toys. Stamp >>collecting was a 'no big deal' hobby a century ago; now >>it's almost universally also considered an investment as >>well. >> >Stamp collecting imploded and kids don't collect anymore, the only >stuff worth anything is the ultra rare items the old collectors >lusted after. The same thing happened in the Comic Book world. The market tanked in the 80's and as far as I can tell never recovered. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 15 19:18:22 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 17:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: References: <516c3dfb.7040508@gmail.com> <7F404FF25E5.000009E7n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2013, TeoZ wrote: >> > Stamp collecting imploded and kids don't collect anymore, the only stuff > worth anything is the ultra rare items the old collectors lusted after. A working C65 IS "ultra rare" and realistically, the only people with the kind of cash that it commanded ARE "old collectors". :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 20:12:40 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:12:40 -0500 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: References: <516c3dfb.7040508@gmail.com> <7F404FF25E5.000009E7n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <516CA588.4070408@gmail.com> On 04/15/2013 07:18 PM, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 15 Apr 2013, TeoZ wrote: > >>> >> Stamp collecting imploded and kids don't collect anymore, the only stuff >> worth anything is the ultra rare items the old collectors lusted after. > > A working C65 IS "ultra rare" But presumably it's "ultra rare" *and a Commodore*? I mean, there's all sorts of weird and wonderful prototype stuff out there, so presumably it's the combination of the two which makes someone want to pay silly amounts of money? From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 15 20:24:03 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H780 power supply In-Reply-To: References: <201304110021.UAA22211@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1366075443.37969.YahooMailNeo@web141406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >From: David Riley >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:27 PM >Subject: Re: H780 power supply ? >Yeah, if you run some of the less intelligent ones with two low a >load, the duty cycle on the switcher shrinks to near zero, which >means lots of sharp pulses up/down next to each other on an >inductor.? The end result is not nice.? The smarter systems will >just hold off for a period if they detect an insufficient load; >the even smarter ones will switch in a dummy load automatically. >- Dave ?? Well my new caps came in tonight. They were kind of? odd values so I had to order them. I put them in, assembled it and success! DC light right on and after getting the baud right, a prompt! http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=12819&d=1366075002 Brian. From brain at jbrain.com Mon Apr 15 20:26:06 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:26:06 -0500 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> References: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> Message-ID: <516CA8AE.7080003@jbrain.com> On 4/15/2013 1:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/15/2013 10:50 AM, Bryan Pope wrote: >> 17,827 Euros is about $23,303 US dollars. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271183784636 > > It's becoming increasingly clear that this field of vintage computing > is becoming more the territory of the "put it in a glass case" folks > than for hobbyists. > > Particularly when I saw a copy of CP/M-86 for the IBM PC sell for $250 > a short time ago. > > Does this happen to other interest areas? Teddy bears or Beanie > Babies as under-glass exhibits rather than as toys for children? > > --Chuck > I understand the general sentiment, but I think the C65 is a poor example of the concern. Unlike other machines, the C65 was never completed, and has 0 software base. It's sole value in the marketplace is as a prototype. Those of us who own one can do little more with the unit that those without one. Yes, it makes getting parts for the unit harder, but it's not like one can relive the memories with a now-functioning C65, as no one had memories with the unit in the first place. As such, I think folks should lament the price increases of truly great machines and rare but production systems, not the C65 and unfinished prototypes like it. I will concede that rising prices of machines like the C65 further inflate the prices of more legitimate systems like the Apple I and Lisa. Of course, in the interest of full disclosure, I own 2 functioning C65 units, and so I am biased. I have as yet not considered selling either unit, but with the rising prices of the auctions and the limited utility of owning such a unit, much less 2 of them, cause me to question whether it's better to hold onto them well beyond when the C65 "bubble" bursts, or take advantage of some collector's interest to create funds for better purposes. I suspect 1 of the owned units would create a high water price point for the C65, since I own the rare C65 expansion memory card, of which I suspect there are but a handful ever made, and I own a special diagnostic card for C65 development, of which only 1 exists. The former is of marginal utility as it works and would allow larger programs for the C65, and the latter is of no utility, as it was designed for diagnosis of issues with the machine itself during development. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From jws at jwsss.com Mon Apr 15 20:26:08 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:26:08 -0700 Subject: isn't this sort of old news/ Message-ID: <516CA8B0.3030603@jwsss.com> not that they don't have a large collection of old software, but the gee whiz nature of the blip seems a bit uninformed http://tech.slashdot.org/submission/2601751/the-internet-archive-is-now-the-largest-collection-of-historical-software?sdsrc=rel Don't need a huge thread about how noone reads slashdot, they are just usually the conduit that provides the news. original article here http://paritynews.com/web-news/item/974-the-internet-archive-is-now-the-largest-collection-of-historical-software and they are so proud of collecting the documentation too. Maybe this is different than bitsavers mission, and larger, don't know. Jim From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 15 20:38:44 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:38:44 -0700 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: References: <516c3dfb.7040508@gmail.com> <7F404FF25E5.000009E7n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: At 5:18 PM -0700 4/15/13, geneb wrote: >On Mon, 15 Apr 2013, TeoZ wrote: > >>> >>Stamp collecting imploded and kids don't collect anymore, the only >>stuff worth anything is the ultra rare items the old collectors >>lusted after. > >A working C65 IS "ultra rare" and realistically, the only people >with the kind of cash that it commanded ARE "old collectors". :) Just think, about 16 years ago a couple hundred dollars would have bought one... I wish I'd bought one or more, but considered them too unfinished. :-( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Apr 15 20:41:39 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:41:39 -0400 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! References: <516c3dfb.7040508@gmail.com> <7F404FF25E5.000009E7n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <516CA588.4070408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB0038A5D3140F5A81511005AD2EC9D@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 9:12 PM Subject: Re: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! >> A working C65 IS "ultra rare" > > But presumably it's "ultra rare" *and a Commodore*? I mean, there's all > sorts of weird and wonderful prototype stuff out there, so presumably it's > the combination of the two which makes someone want to pay silly amounts > of money? > Brand , model, story, and availability have quite a bit to do with it. Even with that prices vary over time as brand awareness changes in popularity. I think we have all seen C65's and Apple I's change hands over the years with higher and higher prices while older rarities have gone nowhere. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 15 20:51:22 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <516CA588.4070408@gmail.com> References: <516c3dfb.7040508@gmail.com> <7F404FF25E5.000009E7n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <516CA588.4070408@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/15/2013 07:18 PM, geneb wrote: >> On Mon, 15 Apr 2013, TeoZ wrote: >> >>>> >>> Stamp collecting imploded and kids don't collect anymore, the only stuff >>> worth anything is the ultra rare items the old collectors lusted after. >> >> A working C65 IS "ultra rare" > > But presumably it's "ultra rare" *and a Commodore*? I mean, there's all sorts > of weird and wonderful prototype stuff out there, so presumably it's the > combination of the two which makes someone want to pay silly amounts of > money? > I think that's exactly it. It's a computer that escaped the destruction of Commodore. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From b4 at gewt.net Mon Apr 15 20:54:09 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 01:54:09 -0000 Subject: isn't this sort of old news/ References: <516CA8B0.3030603@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 15 Apr 2013, at 21:26, "Jim Stephens" wrote: > > not that they don't have a large collection of old software, but the gee whiz nature of the blip seems a bit uninformed > > http://tech.slashdot.org/submission/2601751/the-internet-archive-is-now-the-largest-collection-of-historical-software?sdsrc=rel > > Don't need a huge thread about how noone reads slashdot, they are just usually the conduit that provides the news. > > original article here http://paritynews.com/web-news/item/974-the-internet-archive-is-now-the-largest-collection-of-historical-software > > and they are so proud of collecting the documentation too. Maybe this is different than bitsavers mission, and larger, don't know. Fun fact: archive.org has all of bitsavers, too. > Jim > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 15 20:58:27 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 20:58:27 -0500 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <516CA8AE.7080003@jbrain.com> References: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> <516CA8AE.7080003@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <201304160159.r3G1wtQX092174@mx1.ezwind.net> At 08:26 PM 4/15/2013, Jim Brain wrote: >I suspect 1 of the owned units would create a high water price point for the C65, since I own the rare C65 expansion memory card, of which I suspect there are but a handful ever made, and I own a special diagnostic card for C65 development, of which only 1 exists. I seem to remember seeing one of these units in the late 80s, perhaps owned by a CBM engineer. Maybe Dave Haynie? - John From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 21:44:34 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:44:34 -0500 Subject: isn't this sort of old news/ In-Reply-To: References: <516CA8B0.3030603@jwsss.com> Message-ID: archive.org is amazing i wonder if anyones tried to miriror it? On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > > On 15 Apr 2013, at 21:26, "Jim Stephens" wrote: > > > > > not that they don't have a large collection of old software, but the gee > whiz nature of the blip seems a bit uninformed > > > > > http://tech.slashdot.org/submission/2601751/the-internet-archive-is-now-the-largest-collection-of-historical-software?sdsrc=rel > > > > Don't need a huge thread about how noone reads slashdot, they are just > usually the conduit that provides the news. > > > > original article here > http://paritynews.com/web-news/item/974-the-internet-archive-is-now-the-largest-collection-of-historical-software > > > > and they are so proud of collecting the documentation too. Maybe this > is different than bitsavers mission, and larger, don't know. > > Fun fact: archive.org has all of bitsavers, too. > > > Jim > > > > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 21:46:44 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:46:44 -0400 Subject: H780 power supply In-Reply-To: <1366075443.37969.YahooMailNeo@web141406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <201304110021.UAA22211@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1366075443.37969.YahooMailNeo@web141406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4802F0F2-E1C1-45D9-9260-84FEF2ED92E1@gmail.com> On Apr 15, 2013, at 9:24 PM, Brian Roth wrote: >> From: David Riley >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:27 PM >> Subject: Re: H780 power supply > > > > >> Yeah, if you run some of the less intelligent ones with two low a >> load, the duty cycle on the switcher shrinks to near zero, which >> means lots of sharp pulses up/down next to each other on an >> inductor. The end result is not nice. The smarter systems will >> just hold off for a period if they detect an insufficient load; >> the even smarter ones will switch in a dummy load automatically. > > >> - Dave > > Well my new caps came in tonight. They were kind of odd values so I had > to order them. I put them in, assembled it and success! DC light right on and after > getting the baud right, a prompt! I didn't realize until your reply that my phone auto-corrected "too low" to "two low". How embarrassing. In any case, congrats! I'm really excited to see the whole beast come together. - Dave From brain at jbrain.com Mon Apr 15 22:22:13 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:22:13 -0500 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <201304160159.r3G1wtQX092174@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> <516CA8AE.7080003@jbrain.com> <201304160159.r3G1wtQX092174@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <516CC3E5.8000509@jbrain.com> On 4/15/2013 8:58 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 08:26 PM 4/15/2013, Jim Brain wrote: >> I suspect 1 of the owned units would create a high water price point for the C65, since I own the rare C65 expansion memory card, of which I suspect there are but a handful ever made, and I own a special diagnostic card for C65 development, of which only 1 exists. > I seem to remember seeing one of these units in the late 80s, > perhaps owned by a CBM engineer. Maybe Dave Haynie? I did not directly receive mine from him, but it's possible this is his. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Apr 15 22:23:17 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 23:23:17 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516ADFDC.9060800@neurotica.com> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> <516ADFDC.9060800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516CC425.9050209@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: >>On 04/14/2013 07:22 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >>I am not suggesting that (h) is better than (a) -> (g), but it would >>help if you could explain why. I will accept: "That is just the way >>it is!" as the explanation. >> >> > > It is a matter of what you *like*. I personally like both hardware and >software in the context of vintage computing, but for me, the engineering, >ingenuity, design, and construction found in the hardware is more >interesting. MUCH MUCH more interesting. That is MY view. It's different >from yours, AND THAT IS OK. > > Then obviously, we agree! > You speak from the standpoint of someone who only cares about software, and >for whom the hardware is completely irrelevant. And that's 100% fine...it's >what you like, and what you're interested in. However, please acknowledge >that other people like and are interested in DIFFERENT things than you....and >that needs to be ok too. The OP is clearly interested in hardware as well as >software...please do not try to dissuade him from following his interests. > > Before the emulators were available, real DEC CPUs and other hardware was vitally important. I even became somewhat capable in regard to figuring our problems and putting systems together. One time, I even managed to assemble from switches, diodes, LEDs and resistors (along with a bit of wire and solder, of course) a front panel that would support what a 6 button front panel on a BA23 box has to support two MFM hard drives, including LEDs to display the WRITE PROTECT status of any floppy media in the RX50 drives. So I am not completely immune to the "Light Side" of the hardware. > It is not the case that all the ingenuity, all the engineering, all the >thought, all the effort that went into computing in the early years was all >directed toward and poured into software. > Since I have been writing programs for computers since 1960 (started with an IBM 650 using SOAP assembler), I am VERY aware that hardware has advanced far more than software. In fact, during the early years before operating systems with files and disk drives became available, the ONLY thing was hardware and the minimum software was only there to guide the single batch job at a time through the queue. The biggest single change was around 1966 when it became possible to support a large number of terminals which were able to EDIT online files which were then submitted as batch jobs to be executed one at a time. This allowed the shift from punched cards to online files to become possible. The system I worked on in 1967 was a CDC 3500 with a file structure that supported up to 6000 files residing on washing machine sized disk drives. But by 1980, DEC had developed and improved their operating systems and that software has finally started to become just as important as the hardware. Many others, including IBM had also started along those lines. In particular, CDC had an operating system for the 64 bit CPU, the STAR-100, which used virtual memory based in the 256 TerraByte address space. However, RT-11 finally became my focus, for many reasons, around 1980 and I don't think there has been a year since then, perhaps not even a month, that I have not run programs under that operating system. When Ersatz-11 was first released around 1995, it was rather limited and I used both real DEC CPUs and Ersatz-11 for a number of years. By 2002 when I upgraded to a 750 MHz Pentium III with 768 MB of memory and 40 GB hard drives, I started to used the PDP-11/83 less and less. What I still find so challenging is that even after 40 years, RT-11 still has a few bugs which crash the operating system and many bugs that need fixing. The basic structure of RT-11 is extremely solid and lends itself to many more enhancements that I ever would have believed. I have managed to enhance more than half of the SAV files and many of the device drivers along with the actual monitors, as well as writing new monitors such as SN(X).SYS, Symbolic Name List Pseudo Device Driver which does all of what PATH does for DOS. Recently, I have also enhanced the KED variants to support more than 24 lines and more than 132 columns. Jerome Fine From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 15 23:16:38 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 00:16:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <516C8388.7030103@gmail.com> References: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> <516C8388.7030103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201304160416.AAA03908@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Well, if money's not the driving factor, we can make an effort to > sell/donate/trade with other enthusiasts, rather than listing on That > Auction Site.... :-) I know _I_ won't go near ebay (last I looked, there were three obvious reasons for me to avoid them, any one of which would have been sufficient). Even aside from that, I'd much rather a system go to someone who is interested in it for its own sake (like most of this list) than to someone to whom it's a consumable to be replaced as needed in some expensive-to-recertify system and not cared about otherwise - for example, if I'm looking to sell a machine, the price I'll ask from the latter is a lot higher than from the former. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 15 23:18:41 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130415210629.T24584@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 15 Apr 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > I think I've mentioend this before, but whenever I see an advert for a > computer, or some poor salesman tries to sell me one, they tell me it can > store all my photos [1], store all my msuic [2]. etc. Not a single word > about programming it . And yet that's waht I want a computer for. > [1] Oh yes? What, even 5*4 sheet film? > [2] And 1/4" recording tape? A hollowed out microcomputer can hold a few thousand sheets of 4x5 film, or half a dozen reels of 1/2" recording tape. A hollowed out minicomputer, . . . A hollowed out mainfram, . . . > My classic computers do all I need to do.... I only have a few hundred sheets of film, a few thousand 35mm negatives and/or transparencies, and less than a thousand feet of 16mm film. It doesn't take a very large computer case to hold those. Maybe I should consider digitizing most of it. I have to admit that my cameras occupy more space than my total cumulative output from them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 15 23:26:06 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AE GSRAM Plus- DRAMS needed 1024x1, Total of 40 needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130415212338.Q24584@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 15 Apr 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > Even so, 40 chips is a strange number. Does the board do error-correction > or soemthing? No, if you have one, and need 5 more to make 6, then that is 8 chips for each (KB or MB) for 8 bit. From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Apr 16 01:07:44 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 08:07:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? Message-ID: "Cory Smelosky" wrote: > On 04/15/2013 03:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > The only thing I 'own' thet I don't fix myself is my cat :-) > > Yeah, manufacturers don't exactly release schematics for those. :) But they've been around for so long that others have traced them out and released in book form. Heck, they're even giving lessons about them. It's called "anatomy" though :) OTOH, they require quite a different set of tools and skills to work on than what we usually have and do. Arno PS: Condolences to Tony from me as well. I'm dreading the day I'll be losing one of my parents. From b4 at gewt.net Tue Apr 16 01:17:00 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 06:17:00 -0000 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? References: Message-ID: <72800840-AD4B-461B-AB99-11C661597914@gewt.net> On 16 Apr 2013, at 02:07, "Arno Kletzander" wrote: > > "Cory Smelosky" wrote: >> On 04/15/2013 03:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> The only thing I 'own' thet I don't fix myself is my cat :-) >> >> Yeah, manufacturers don't exactly release schematics for those. :) > > But they've been around for so long that others have traced them > out and released in book form. Heck, they're even giving lessons > about them. It's called "anatomy" though :) Just slightly different. ;) > > OTOH, they require quite a different set of tools and skills to > work on than what we usually have and do. Good point. I wouldn't want to plug a multimeter or an oscilloscope in to a cat. Ah, the internet! It will always end up in discussions about cats that span more than one message. ;) > > Arno > > PS: Condolences to Tony from me as well. I'm dreading the day I'll > be losing one of my parents. Condolences from me as well. From shutchman at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 10:58:29 2013 From: shutchman at gmail.com (Hutch) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:58:29 -0400 Subject: New hardware project... In-Reply-To: References: <516BDD05.70904@csgeeks.org> <002401ce39d0$341d9da0$9c58d8e0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: Another method to interface classic computer to a standard VGA monitor would be to use an Extron 202xi converter ( Other models may work, I used this model). You can still find these old boxes out there for $30- 80. This model can handle ECL inputs, which was why I chose it for my application. My application was to connect a standard VGA monitor to a SUN 3/140 that had a dying ECL monochrome CRT 1152x900 Horiz=61.8KHz Vert 66Hz ( model M19P114) attached to it .You have to make a custom cable between the computer and the Extron input ( Because the Exton DB9 inputs are weirdly configured), the manual for the 202xi box is at the Extron website. When making my cable from the Sun to the Extron, I had to keep it very short ...6 inch...because the ECL had a problem with long cables. The results were amazing, very nice output from my SUN on the VGA monitor ( HP L1925). The Exron has 5 BNC outputs RGBVH, so I also had to buy a 5BNC to VGA cable, Amazon , about $10. Hutch On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Matthew Stock wrote: > On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 7:56 AM, Kevin Parker >wrote: > > > Hi Matt - while I really liked watching what you did and watching it fire > > up > > I'm interested in the RGB to VGA converter you used as I have quite a few > > legacy machines but a shortage of old monitors but no shortage of VGA > > screens. > > > > Kevin, > > The CoCo uses a fairly simple signal that's similar to CGA in many > respects. The main issue I had was the fact that it uses separate H and V > sync signals instead of a composite sync. The board I purchased and that > you see in the video is similar to this ( > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/RGB-CGA-EGA-YUV-to-VGA-Arcade-HD-Video-Converter-Board-abb-/221211808609?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3381405361 > ). > While it supports separate sync signals, it won't capture at 15kHz. > > So I found a schematic at > http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.htmlon how to build a > simple composite sync, fed that into the converter board, > and it worked like a champ. That little board isn't visible in the video, > but I home etched it. Both conversion boards run off of a small 5v > switching wall wart. > > Total cost was about $30 and a little time and soldering. > > Hope that helps. > -Matt > -- e-? From christopher1400 at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 17:13:59 2013 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 15:13:59 -0700 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I actually know someone who uses a modern system to convert older audio formats to digital formats (usually FLAC). They also have a 1200dpi scanner (so old it's SCSI) they use for film or printed pictures. Works surprisingly well, the only things they have that aren't part of any brand new modern system are a SCSI controller and a PCI sound card that has stereo input. From amh at POBOX.COM Mon Apr 15 18:30:39 2013 From: amh at POBOX.COM (Andrew Hoerter) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 19:30:39 -0400 Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <516C8388.7030103@gmail.com> References: <516C3DFB.7040508@gmail.com> <516C4A74.20004@sydex.com> <516C8388.7030103@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: Well, if money's not the driving factor, we can make an effort to > sell/donate/trade with other enthusiasts, rather than listing on That > Auction Site.... :-) > It would be neat to have a retrocomputing barter/swap website -- give up something you don't want (or don't have time for), and receive whatever you're more interested in. Each party pays for their own shipping, as long as the items are fairly comparable, it comes out in the wash more or less. Keeping cash out of the equation would go some way towards keeping it an enthusiast-only thing, I'd hope. Of course, you could set up a profile (per-user or per-item) to indicate what you'd be willing to accept in trade, and there would be some searchability. To an extent I suppose this mailing list serves the same purpose, just not as convenient in some respects. -Andy From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Tue Apr 16 03:04:11 2013 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Steve Merrony) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 09:04:11 +0100 Subject: Data General Dasher D200 Manuals Message-ID: <516D05FB.5030803@stephenmerrony.co.uk> I've looked in all the usual places and can't find any manuals for the D200 - does anyone have a scan? I know there are manuals for the later D410 and D411 floating around - but I would like to get some definitive details on the D200. (Also - still looking for any help with the MV/2500...) Steve http://stephen.homedns.org/dg/ From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Tue Apr 16 05:27:23 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 03:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: got my dot-matrix printer Message-ID: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I've got my dot-matrix printer yesterday, I tried it today its a PANASONIC KX-P1121E[1], I got it from ebay[2] i've only tried it on my windows XP system (please shot me :) ) after seeing the text quality, I am thinking abandoning my inkjet printer for text-only documents the halftoning is visible when printing out pictures, but that's why i bought it ? [1] http://panasonic.net/pcc/products/printer/kx-p1121e_plus/index.html [2] http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281043814175 --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 PGP ID: A7EF6006 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 16 05:59:23 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 05:59:23 -0500 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: <516B4C66.5090907@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <201304161100.r3GB010W042065@mx1.ezwind.net> At 05:13 PM 4/15/2013, Christopher Satterfield wrote: >I actually know someone who uses a modern system to convert older audio >formats to digital formats (usually FLAC). They also have a 1200dpi scanner >(so old it's SCSI) they use for film or printed pictures. Works >surprisingly well, Some processes are better today. I recently had some old (1940s to '70s) 8 mm family movies scanned digitally. The service cleans the film and uses a wet-gate process to reduce scratches. They scan each frame digitally at HD resolution (1920 x 1080) using even LED illumination. They scan the entire film edge-to-edge. Many old cameras exposed the entire width of the film while the projector only showed the majority of the middle, so you see more image than ever before. I asked for a digital movie file for editing, so I sent them a hard drive. The results are astoundingly dramatically better from what you got from an old projector. No playback jitter from worn sprocket holes. Bright, even illumination. It's far better than the film-to-VHS transfer I paid for in the early 90s. (Private YouTube example links available on request.) All this for a dime or two per foot. I'll be able to edit digitally and provide family members with DVD or Bluray copies. The same is true for restoration and duplication of old family photographs. With a digital process, you can undo damage and easily multiply copies. As with the classic computer avocation, it can come with regrets, too. I wish I would've rescued 1930s family films from a distant cousin who passed away a decade ago. I had a VHS copy of some of his films, but not the originals. - John From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 06:08:07 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:08:07 +0100 Subject: Internet Software Archive Message-ID: http://theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2261567/internet-archive-opens-its-software-history ?DIGITAL STORER the Internet Archive has opened its collected Archive of Historical Computer Software, and the archivist who collected it challenged anyone to match it. The Software Archive is the work of professional archiver Jason Scott and in a post to his website he boasted of the scale of the software database and spoke of what a treasure trove of historical software it is.? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 16 06:30:33 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 07:30:33 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516CC425.9050209@compsys.to> References: <5169FEB0.7000605@compsys.to> <516A2F4B.9020108@neurotica.com> <516A9172.507@compsys.to> <516ADFDC.9060800@neurotica.com> <516CC425.9050209@compsys.to> Message-ID: <516D3659.9050706@verizon.net> On 04/15/2013 11:23 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > What I still find so challenging is that even after 40 years, RT-11 > still has a few bugs which crash the operating system and many > bugs that need fixing. The basic structure of RT-11 is extremely > solid and lends itself to many more enhancements that I ever would > have believed. I have managed to enhance more than half of the > SAV files and many of the device drivers along with the actual > monitors, as well as writing new monitors such as SN(X).SYS, > Symbolic Name List Pseudo Device Driver which does all of > what PATH does for DOS. Recently, I have also enhanced the > KED variants to support more than 24 lines and more than 132 > columns. > I've bee running RT since 1980 and its without question solid. Yes but the file systems is still primitive. Not unlike NS* dos assuming they didnt copy RT11 on the that level. The lack of a scatter gather filesystem is somewhat limiting especially on small file devices. Allison From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 16 06:36:37 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 06:36:37 -0500 Subject: Internet Software Archive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201304161137.r3GBbB1o045686@mx1.ezwind.net> At 06:08 AM 4/16/2013, Liam Proven wrote: >http://theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2261567/internet-archive-opens-its-software-history > >?DIGITAL STORER the Internet Archive has opened its collected Archive >of Historical Computer Software, and the archivist who collected it >challenged anyone to match it. Except "Well, our metadata is shit." I think he put that in there just to let the professional archivists blow their coffee out their noses. - John From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 07:40:28 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:40:28 +0100 Subject: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed In-Reply-To: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On 15 April 2013 20:17, TeoZ wrote: > I won an old 486 EISA motherboard on ebay missing a few chips most importantly is the BIOS. > > Mylex MAE486-33 Rev P2, anyone have the BIOS file for it? > > Manual says: > > l Verify that the BIOS chip is a 28-pin, 27512 > > chip, with a 200 ns access time. > > W For the MAE486 - verify that the BIOS chip > > is marked "EISA BIOS 486 MAE rev xx" > > > > I found the bios for the MBE486 online but that's a different board. And I did find the EISA config files. > > I think it is missing the keyboard controller, and 2 Dallas RTC chips as well (have one of them at least). Working EISA 486 are getting hard to find. I'm still trying to find a home for my EISA SCSI controllers so that I don't have to send them to recycling. Free for the cost of (surface!) postage. Unlike the classic Macs and Mac monitors, packing them shouldn't be too big a problem... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mazzinia at tin.it Tue Apr 16 08:15:10 2013 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 15:15:10 +0200 Subject: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed In-Reply-To: References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> Are eisa computers really less easy to be found, now ? If so I suppose that I did a good thing by caring for the Ast Premmia 4/66d that I bought so many years ago. Is Buslogic among those scsi controllers ? :) Alessandro -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Liam Proven Inviato: marted? 16 aprile 2013 14:40 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed On 15 April 2013 20:17, TeoZ wrote: > I won an old 486 EISA motherboard on ebay missing a few chips most importantly is the BIOS. > > Mylex MAE486-33 Rev P2, anyone have the BIOS file for it? > > Manual says: > > l Verify that the BIOS chip is a 28-pin, 27512 > > chip, with a 200 ns access time. > > W For the MAE486 - verify that the BIOS chip > > is marked "EISA BIOS 486 MAE rev xx" > > > > I found the bios for the MBE486 online but that's a different board. And I did find the EISA config files. > > I think it is missing the keyboard controller, and 2 Dallas RTC chips as well (have one of them at least). Working EISA 486 are getting hard to find. I'm still trying to find a home for my EISA SCSI controllers so that I don't have to send them to recycling. Free for the cost of (surface!) postage. Unlike the classic Macs and Mac monitors, packing them shouldn't be too big a problem... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From sales at elecplus.com Tue Apr 16 08:48:18 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 08:48:18 -0500 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ba01ce3aa9$0d5855a0$280900e0$@com> Are you new to dot matrix printers? At least you got a 24-pin, instead of a 9-pin. Does yours have a serial port, or only the parallel port? The dot matrix printers are usually rugged, and will last many years with good care. Yours has NLQ, or Near-Letter-Quality, which some institutions would not accept. You had to go with laser or daisy wheel, which actually produces beautiful letter quality. One word of caution: do NOT use petroleum jelly to lubricate the bars the printhead travels on! Radio Shack sells a very good tube called Lube Gel which works great, and does not get gummy. Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Sparks Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 5:27 AM To: cctalk Subject: got my dot-matrix printer I've got my dot-matrix printer yesterday, I tried it today its a PANASONIC KX-P1121E[1], I got it from ebay[2] i've only tried it on my windows XP system (please shot me :) ) after seeing the text quality, I am thinking abandoning my inkjet printer for text-only documents the halftoning is visible when printing out pictures, but that's why i bought it ? [1] http://panasonic.net/pcc/products/printer/kx-p1121e_plus/index.html [2] http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281043814175 --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 PGP ID: A7EF6006 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6247 - Release Date: 04/15/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6247 - Release Date: 04/15/13 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 16 09:16:33 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 10:16:33 -0400 Subject: Repairing cats? - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516C7141.8060807@gewt.net> References: <516B51A8.4000708@gewt.net> <> <516C7141.8060807@gewt.net> Message-ID: <516D5D41.7020502@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/04/13 5:29 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > On 04/15/2013 03:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>... >> The only thing I 'own' thet I don't fix myself is my cat :-) > > Yeah, manufacturers don't exactly release schematics for those. :) Douglas Adams cautioned against it. "One of the problems of taking things apart and seeing how they work - supposing you're trying to find out how a cat works - you take that cat apart to see how it works, what you've got in your hands is a non-working cat. The cat wasn't a sort of clunky mechanism that was susceptible to our available tools of analysis." --Toby > >> >> -tony >> > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 16 09:42:29 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 07:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internet Software Archive In-Reply-To: <201304161137.r3GBbB1o045686@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304161137.r3GBbB1o045686@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, John Foust wrote: > At 06:08 AM 4/16/2013, Liam Proven wrote: >> http://theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2261567/internet-archive-opens-its-software-history >> >> ?DIGITAL STORER the Internet Archive has opened its collected Archive >> of Historical Computer Software, and the archivist who collected it >> challenged anyone to match it. > > Except "Well, our metadata is shit." I think he put that in there just > to let the professional archivists blow their coffee out their noses. > The hope is to be blunt about it in order to not only be up front about the problem, but to hopefully get volunteers to provide/improve the metadata. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 16 09:55:18 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 09:55:18 -0500 Subject: Internet Software Archive In-Reply-To: References: <201304161137.r3GBbB1o045686@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201304161455.r3GEtf63072749@mx1.ezwind.net> At 09:42 AM 4/16/2013, geneb wrote: >On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, John Foust wrote: >> >>Except "Well, our metadata is shit." I think he put that in there just >>to let the professional archivists blow their coffee out their noses. >The hope is to be blunt about it in order to not only be up front about the problem, but to hopefully get volunteers to provide/improve the metadata. And is there a mechanism for that to happen? - John From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 16 10:10:57 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 08:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internet Software Archive In-Reply-To: <201304161455.r3GEtf63072749@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304161137.r3GBbB1o045686@mx1.ezwind.net> <201304161455.r3GEtf63072749@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, John Foust wrote: > At 09:42 AM 4/16/2013, geneb wrote: >> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, John Foust wrote: >>> >>> Except "Well, our metadata is shit." I think he put that in there just >>> to let the professional archivists blow their coffee out their noses. >> The hope is to be blunt about it in order to not only be up front about the problem, but to hopefully get volunteers to provide/improve the metadata. > > And is there a mechanism for that to happen? > I'm pretty sure it's straightforward to submit new metadata - however, they're underingoing a commercial power upgrade at the moment and are offline. When they're back up, I'd suggest creating an account and see what they offer with regards to new submissions. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From sales at elecplus.com Tue Apr 16 10:21:57 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 10:21:57 -0500 Subject: computing the old way Message-ID: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> In this modern day of pushing for everything to be web based, I am SO frustrated by my hosting company being down for the last 9.5 hours due to a DNS resolving issue. The old methods would never have had these problems.. Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6247 - Release Date: 04/15/13 From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 16 10:45:43 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 08:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > In this modern day of pushing for everything to be web based, I am SO > frustrated by my hosting company being down for the last 9.5 hours due to a > DNS resolving issue. The old methods would never have had these problems.. > You'd just run into a busy signal when someone else was on the support BBS... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 16 10:50:06 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 11:50:06 -0400 Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> Message-ID: <516D732E.8060305@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/04/13 11:21 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > In this modern day of pushing for everything to be web based, I am SO > frustrated by my hosting company being down for the last 9.5 hours due to a > DNS resolving issue. The old methods would never have had these problems.. > > Au contraire, it was probably *human* error! DNS infrastructure itself is ridiculously robust. Take Amazon's Route 53, for example. But humans remain fallible and the infrastructure will be perfectly faithful to what we ask. This is top of mind because I made a very silly DNS error recently (after switching to Route 53 to get resilience and consistent name servers) that took my site down to much of the internet (including Google) for a week. The infrastructure is no help if the data is wrong! *blushes* --Toby > > Cindy Croxton > > > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6247 - Release Date: 04/15/13 > > From sales at elecplus.com Tue Apr 16 11:00:57 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 11:00:57 -0500 Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: <516D732E.8060305@telegraphics.com.au> References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D732E.8060305@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <019801ce3abb$952db8a0$bf8929e0$@com> Hosting company finally answered "seems that your server was physically turned off". How and why remains a total mystery. Drives me nuts! Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Toby Thain Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 10:50 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: computing the old way On 16/04/13 11:21 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > In this modern day of pushing for everything to be web based, I am SO > frustrated by my hosting company being down for the last 9.5 hours due > to a DNS resolving issue. The old methods would never have had these problems.. > > Au contraire, it was probably *human* error! DNS infrastructure itself is ridiculously robust. Take Amazon's Route 53, for example. But humans remain fallible and the infrastructure will be perfectly faithful to what we ask. This is top of mind because I made a very silly DNS error recently (after switching to Route 53 to get resilience and consistent name servers) that took my site down to much of the internet (including Google) for a week. The infrastructure is no help if the data is wrong! *blushes* --Toby Hosting company finally answered "seems that your server was physically turned off". How and why remains a total mystery. Drives me nuts! Cindy Croxton ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6247 - Release Date: 04/15/13 From vince at mulhollon.com Tue Apr 16 11:01:23 2013 From: vince at mulhollon.com (Vince Mulhollon) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 09:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XT-IDE V2 PCBs available In-Reply-To: <000301ce33b9$b70c8360$25258a20$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000301ce33b9$b70c8360$25258a20$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <35731bd4-6d96-4d88-a05b-9f0f9c1d8346@googlegroups.com> On Sunday, April 7, 2013 12:59:35 PM UTC-5, lynchaj wrote: > However due to unforeseen extreme price increases in shipping by USPS I am > forced to change shipping costs. > Did you get my order from this Sunday for some ECB boards? Had not heard back. Totally understand if its busy, just making sure its not lost in a spam folder or something. I intended to pay enough for shipping, if I overpaid keep the change. If I underpaid let me know and I'll paypal some more $$$ Thanks! From bobvines00 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 11:16:12 2013 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:16:12 -0400 Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? (was: Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past?) Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 05:59:23 -0500 > From: John Foust > To: > Subject: Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? > Some processes are better today. I recently had some old (1940s to '70s) > 8 mm family movies scanned digitally. > > The service cleans the film and uses a wet-gate process to reduce scratches. > They scan each frame digitally at HD resolution (1920 x 1080) using > even LED illumination. They scan the entire film edge-to-edge. Many > old cameras exposed the entire width of the film while the projector > only showed the majority of the middle, so you see more image than > ever before. I asked for a digital movie file for editing, so I sent > them a hard drive. The results are astoundingly dramatically better > from what you got from an old projector. No playback jitter > from worn sprocket holes. Bright, even illumination. > > It's far better than the film-to-VHS transfer I paid for in the early 90s. > (Private YouTube example links available on request.) All this for a > dime or two per foot. I'll be able to edit digitally and provide > family members with DVD or Bluray copies. > > The same is true for restoration and duplication of old family > photographs. With a digital process, you can undo damage and > easily multiply copies. > > As with the classic computer avocation, it can come with regrets, too. > I wish I would've rescued 1930s family films from a distant cousin > who passed away a decade ago. I had a VHS copy of some of his films, > but not the originals. > > - John John, Which "film to digital" service did you use? I have a box of 8mm family videos taken in the '60s-'70s that I would really like to save. It sounds like you are very happy with the results. Please contact me offline if you don't want to publically advertise the service. Thanks, Bob From b4 at gewt.net Tue Apr 16 11:19:28 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 16:19:28 -0000 Subject: computing the old way References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> Message-ID: <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> On 04/16/2013 11:21 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > > In this modern day of pushing for everything to be web based, I am SO > frustrated by my hosting company being down for the last 9.5 hours due to a > DNS resolving issue. The old methods would never have had these problems.. That's not as bad as a provider trying to coverup and downplay a breach where CCs were taken, I guess. It took them about that long to make a blog post about it! How do they have DNS issues for 9.5 hours? It should be as simple a fix as a reboot of the DNS server in this case. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6247 - Release Date: 04/15/13 > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From shumaker at att.net Tue Apr 16 11:21:06 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 09:21:06 -0700 Subject: Internet Software Archive In-Reply-To: References: <201304161137.r3GBbB1o045686@mx1.ezwind.net> <201304161455.r3GEtf63072749@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <516D7A72.6030404@att.net> On 4/16/2013 8:10 AM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, John Foust wrote: > >> At 09:42 AM 4/16/2013, geneb wrote: >>> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, John Foust wrote: >>>> >>>> Except "Well, our metadata is shit." I think he put that in there just >>>> to let the professional archivists blow their coffee out their noses. >>> The hope is to be blunt about it in order to not only be up front >>> about the problem, but to hopefully get volunteers to >>> provide/improve the metadata. >> >> And is there a mechanism for that to happen? >> > I'm pretty sure it's straightforward to submit new metadata - however, > they're underingoing a commercial power upgrade at the moment and are > offline. When they're back up, I'd suggest creating an account and > see what they offer with regards to new submissions. > > g. > > Would not the Maslin archives be a valuable submission? s2 From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 16 11:21:02 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 11:21:02 -0500 Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201304161627.r3GGRP60085218@mx1.ezwind.net> At 11:16 AM 4/16/2013, Bob Vines wrote: >Which "film to digital" service did you use? I have a box of 8mm >family videos taken in the '60s-'70s that I would really like to save. > It sounds like you are very happy with the results. http://filmtransfer.com/ , now http://pixcel.com/ . Look around for a coupon / Groupon, they do have discounts and frequent promotions. I think this digital scanning of old film is entirely apropos for computer preservationists. Many early computer animations were recorded this way. It seems like many film-to-digital conversions happened by way of steps that involved NTSC video. That's a shame, and reminds us of the lesson of the value of keeping the original material. - John From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 16 11:40:22 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 09:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internet Software Archive In-Reply-To: <516D7A72.6030404@att.net> References: <201304161137.r3GBbB1o045686@mx1.ezwind.net> <201304161455.r3GEtf63072749@mx1.ezwind.net> <516D7A72.6030404@att.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, steve shumaker wrote: > On 4/16/2013 8:10 AM, geneb wrote: >> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, John Foust wrote: >> >>> At 09:42 AM 4/16/2013, geneb wrote: >>>> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, John Foust wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Except "Well, our metadata is shit." I think he put that in there just >>>>> to let the professional archivists blow their coffee out their noses. >>>> The hope is to be blunt about it in order to not only be up front about >>>> the problem, but to hopefully get volunteers to provide/improve the >>>> metadata. >>> >>> And is there a mechanism for that to happen? >>> >> I'm pretty sure it's straightforward to submit new metadata - however, >> they're underingoing a commercial power upgrade at the moment and are >> offline. When they're back up, I'd suggest creating an account and see >> what they offer with regards to new submissions. >> >> g. >> >> > Would not the Maslin archives be a valuable submission? I suspect it's already there. If not, I can certainly correct the oversight. I do know that the LoC has a copy of retroarchive.org - I just don't know how fresh it is. g -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 16 12:07:22 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 10:07:22 -0700 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> On 04/15/2013 12:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I actively look for things I can repair (even simple, cheap things) and > flatly refuse ot buy any product consint more than, say \pounds 10.00 > that I cannot fix. If this means I have to use older, better-built > things, so be it. Half the battle of repairing some stuff is (1) having the right tools and (2) knowing what tools are needed. Yesterday, I re-soled a pair of work boots, said boots being one of the rare instances of footwear that doesn't make my size 13s hurt. The Vibram replacement soles were easy enough to come by, but how to attach them? Many people suggested contact cement or neoprene cement. From experience, I've learned that neither is very durable in the long run. After a lot of digging, I discovered that shoe repair shops use a special brand of contact cement known as "Barge" cement. The stuff stinks like heck and soaks into rubber, so a 6 ounce tube barely suffices for a pair of soles. But the bond is unassailable by moisture or wear. Of course, this would have been unnecessary had the city's last shoe repair shop not closed. Apparently, shoes are yet another thing that people now discard rather than refurbish. Most likely this occurs because of cheaply-made inexpensive imports. So computer gear isn't alone in the "don't replace, throw away" category. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 16 12:22:25 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:22:25 -0500 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201304161722.r3GHMhHC091208@mx1.ezwind.net> At 12:07 PM 4/16/2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Half the battle of repairing some stuff is (1) having the right tools and (2) knowing what tools are needed. And the other half is finding the right tool that you're sure you have. - John From sales at elecplus.com Tue Apr 16 12:23:46 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:23:46 -0500 Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> Message-ID: <025e01ce3ac7$273d1320$75b73960$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 11:19 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: computing the old way On 04/16/2013 11:21 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > > In this modern day of pushing for everything to be web based, I am SO > frustrated by my hosting company being down for the last 9.5 hours due > to a DNS resolving issue. The old methods would never have had these problems.. That's not as bad as a provider trying to coverup and downplay a breach where CCs were taken, I guess. It took them about that long to make a blog post about it! How do they have DNS issues for 9.5 hours? It should be as simple a fix as a reboot of the DNS server in this case. Actually, in this case, it was even easier to fix. My server for some reason had been physically turned off! Kinda hard to resolve the DNS when the machine is powered off... ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6247 - Release Date: 04/15/13 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 16 12:27:42 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:27:42 -0400 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/04/13 1:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ... computer gear isn't alone in the "don't replace, throw away" category. > It's infected everything. This city (Toronto) still has leather/shoe repairers, though. --Toby > --Chuck > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 12:37:27 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:37:27 -0400 Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> Message-ID: <516D8C57.9030103@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2013 12:19 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> In this modern day of pushing for everything to be web based, I am SO >> frustrated by my hosting company being down for the last 9.5 hours due to a >> DNS resolving issue. The old methods would never have had these problems.. > > That's not as bad as a provider trying to coverup and downplay a breach where > CCs were taken, I guess. It took them about that long to make a blog post > about it! > > How do they have DNS issues for 9.5 hours? It should be as simple a fix as a > reboot of the DNS server in this case. Ah, no. There's almost nothing involving hosed DNS that involves rebooting a nameserver. Nameservers are typically not Windows boxes. (standpoint: I ran some of the largest nameservers on the enter network many years ago, and I run some rather non-trivial ones now) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 12:44:27 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:44:27 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2013 06:27 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > I've got my dot-matrix printer yesterday, I tried it today > its a PANASONIC KX-P1121E[1], I got it from ebay[2] > i've only tried it on my windows XP system (please shot me :) ) Nice! Panasonic makes EXCELLENT impact printers. ~25 years ago, I bought a KX-P1124 on the "payroll deduction plan" at work. (we were a dealer) It was an amazingly good printer, plastic case but indestructible, and great output. I sold it eons ago, but I was given another one recently, and got all nostalgic about it. :) Congrats on a good printer. If their new ones are as good as their old ones (and in their case, they may very well be!), you'll have good luck with it. > after seeing the text quality, I am thinking abandoning my inkjet printer for text-only documents > the halftoning is visible when printing out pictures, but that's why i bought it Consumer-grade ink jet printers are rarely a good solution for *anything*. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 12:47:12 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:47:12 -0400 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <516D8EA0.3070008@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2013 01:27 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> ... computer gear isn't alone in the "don't replace, throw away" category. >> > > It's infected everything. Much to the delight of slimy salesmen everywhere. > This city (Toronto) still has leather/shoe > repairers, though. There's one a mile or two from my place, but this is a very old area. He's still open, in his tiny little shop...I don't know how much business he gets, but I hope it's "some" at least. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 12:47:34 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:47:34 -0400 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:27 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 16/04/13 1:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> ... computer gear isn't alone in the "don't replace, throw away" category. >> > > It's infected everything. This city (Toronto) still has leather/shoe repairers, though. We have them in Philadelphia, too. It can get hard to justify when it costs more to repair/resole a shoe than to buy a new pair, but my wife is an opera performer, so sometimes it's important enough to repair a pair that looks good. Appliances are my big beef. I have a coffee maker with the grinder built in that I REALLY like. Somehow, the bottom part got colonized by roaches (which, fortunately, don't seem to have taken root anywhere else in the house), so I thoroughly flushed it out with soap and water and let it dry for about a month. Everything works EXCEPT the transistor that switches the relay that turns on the heater, which makes it pretty useless as a coffee maker. Taking the thing apart was totally impossible without marring the appearance, and some parts are nearly impossible to put back together; the low-voltage PSU for the microcontroller and the relay were all sealed in a caulked-up box at the bottom that was impossible to remove. I still think I can fix it, since I've identified the bad transistor, but if it weren't a $200 coffee maker, I don't think I'd have considered it worth the effort. Things just aren't made to be fixed anymore; you can't buy replacement PSU or controller boards, so if the microcontroller had died, there'd be basically no hope. As a side note, we've been getting along fine with a separate grinder and a Farberware percolator whose design hasn't been changed since at least the '60s with the exception of using an IEC receptacle for the power cord. So there's that. My in-laws still use theirs from the '60s, so I'm reasonably confident that it should last. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 16 12:56:02 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 10:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: <025e01ce3ac7$273d1320$75b73960$@com> References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> <025e01ce3ac7$273d1320$75b73960$@com> Message-ID: > a reboot of the DNS server in this case. > > Actually, in this case, it was even easier to fix. My server for some > reason had been physically turned off! > Kinda hard to resolve the DNS when the machine is powered off... > It could have been as simple as some accidentally doing a "shutdown -h" instead of a "shutdown -r".... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 16 12:57:03 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 10:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130416104047.B33578@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > After a lot of digging, I discovered that shoe repair shops use a > special brand of contact cement known as "Barge" cement. The stuff > stinks like heck and soaks into rubber, so a 6 ounce tube barely > suffices for a pair of soles. But the bond is unassailable by moisture > or wear. Barge changed their formula ("can't use xxx in the formula anymore"). The current stuff is crap compared to what it once was. A friend has been watching eBay for NOS of the old formula, without success. One ad had the new formula, but the picture was the packaging of the old formula. My shoes have been discontinued, and replaced (with the same model name!) by something unrepairable and unwearable (found in attempts to buy NOS on eBay). When the soles on my current shoes (on their 4th set) came loose ("new formula"?), there are no more shoe repair shops, I had to use "Shoe Goo". Despite it's silly name that does not inspire confidence, it actually seems to be holding OK. > Of course, this would have been unnecessary had the city's last shoe > repair shop not closed. Apparently, shoes are yet another thing that > people now discard rather than refurbish. Most likely this occurs > because of cheaply-made inexpensive imports. Most modern shoes are not resoleable. Most don't even have a slip-sole! AND they're so badly made that the uppers are worn-out before the soles, AND the public has been conditioned to demand NEW shoes instead of re-soling, which costs a good chunk of what the new ones cost. > So computer gear isn't alone in the "don't replace, throw away" category. What ISN'T "throw-away"? I was on the curriculum committee, and was the "SOLE" dissenting vote in their decision to close one of the last shoe repair training programs. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From slandon110 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 12:57:33 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:57:33 -0400 Subject: 10 dollar computers for local pickup in flushing michigan Message-ID: <516D910D.6060606@gmail.com> I have a ton of old common macs, all work, all 10 bucks a machine for LOCAL pickup in Flushing Michigan. SE's, Plus's, PowerMac 6100s, Quadra 610s, 650s, Mac IIVX's, Performa 600s. 10 bucks a machine if you pick it up Or fill your car with computers and stuff for 100 dollars From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 12:58:42 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:58:42 -0400 Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: <516D8C57.9030103@neurotica.com> References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> <516D8C57.9030103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/16/2013 12:19 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> In this modern day of pushing for everything to be web based, I am SO >>> frustrated by my hosting company being down for the last 9.5 hours due to a >>> DNS resolving issue. The old methods would never have had these problems.. >> >> That's not as bad as a provider trying to coverup and downplay a breach where >> CCs were taken, I guess. It took them about that long to make a blog post >> about it! >> >> How do they have DNS issues for 9.5 hours? It should be as simple a fix as a >> reboot of the DNS server in this case. > > Ah, no. There's almost nothing involving hosed DNS that involves rebooting > a nameserver. Nameservers are typically not Windows boxes. (standpoint: I > ran some of the largest nameservers on the enter network many years ago, and > I run some rather non-trivial ones now) Well, unless your DNS server has crashed for some perfectly valid reason. Say, maybe, the janitor bumped into the server rack and accidentally ejected a hot-swap drive and caused a kernel panic. I've heard of that happening (to companies who subsequently either got rack doors or stopped letting the janitors clean the server room). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 13:02:44 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 14:02:44 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <05DB2F64-D046-4F8B-9358-3BC8BBDBFCC8@gmail.com> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> after seeing the text quality, I am thinking abandoning my inkjet printer for text-only documents >> the halftoning is visible when printing out pictures, but that's why i bought it > > Consumer-grade ink jet printers are rarely a good solution for *anything*. And they're an especially poor solution for text, given how expensive inkjet ink is compared to toner or (easily-refillable) ribbon ink. My consumer-grade inkjet printer is used almost exclusively as a scanner. It's not a very good one, but it was free and it fits on top of my file cabinet. The printing portion is always spuriously reporting that it's out of ink or that the (genuine HP) cartridge is not a genuine HP cartridge. When it's not doing that, it'll only actually pick up the paper one time out of three. As it turns out, I never need to print color, and if I need to print photos, the local pharmacy has a better photo printer than I could hope to own. - Dave From slandon110 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 13:06:52 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 14:06:52 -0400 Subject: FS: Nice vintage computers- Local Pickup ONLY in Flushing Michigan Message-ID: <516D933C.8010109@gmail.com> Im trying to purchase a vehicle and finance a move so these machines gotta go. Local Pickup only, Im not shipping these machines IBM PC 5150, Nice original machine with Sysdyne Color RGB Display Original Boxes, Has a 20MB Hardcard installed, along with an ethernet card $200 Nice original Apple II Plus System Monitor /// z80 Card ThunderClock Plus Clock Card Monitor /// Stand Kensington SystemSaver $200 Apple IIGS System Monitor, Keyboard, Mouse AE GSRam Plus Ram Upgrade with 1MB RAM, Expandable to 6MB SCSI Card and 80MB External HDD $200 Apple //e System CFFA 3000 Z80 CPM Card Super Serial Card Apple UniDisk 3.5 Drive card with 2 Unidisk 3.5 Drives DuoDisk 5.25 Drive Apple II Appletalk Card- Connects your Apple II to your localtalk network Apple RGB Monitor Card Apple Color Monitor 100- Digital RGB Monitor for //e $300 dollars Bell & Howell Apple II 1 Matching Bell & Howell Drive Hayes Micromodem II with Microcoupler z80 Card Super Serial Card Matching black 9inch CRT Monitor $300 Atari ST520FM TOS 2.0 ROMs included not installed Monitor and Mouse 52MB SCSI HDD with ICD ACSI to SCSI Adapter Card $100 Televideo TVI 925 Terminal- Works great $100 Osborne 1 System- Bad caps $40 Compaq Portable /// Works $40 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 13:16:13 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 15:16:13 -0300 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> Message-ID: >I still think I can fix it, since I've identified the bad >transistor, but if it weren't a $200 coffee maker, I don't >think I'd have considered it worth the effort. Things just >aren't made to be fixed anymore; you can't buy replacement >PSU or controller boards, so if the microcontroller had died, >there'd be basically no hope. Some people do that for fun. Like me :o) From jason at smbfc.net Tue Apr 16 13:39:27 2013 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 14:39:27 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516D9ADF.4030308@smbfc.net> Indeed, I have a KX-P1124 with the 4 color ribbon attachment (which is a kick to print banners out on for events at this point). I really wish I had more of a use for it. Great printer, nice output, etc. Enjoy! On 04/16/2013 01:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/16/2013 06:27 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: >> I've got my dot-matrix printer yesterday, I tried it today >> its a PANASONIC KX-P1121E[1], I got it from ebay[2] >> i've only tried it on my windows XP system (please shot me :) ) > Nice! Panasonic makes EXCELLENT impact printers. ~25 years ago, I bought > a KX-P1124 on the "payroll deduction plan" at work. (we were a dealer) It was > an amazingly good printer, plastic case but indestructible, and great output. > I sold it eons ago, but I was given another one recently, and got all > nostalgic about it. :) Congrats on a good printer. If their new ones are as > good as their old ones (and in their case, they may very well be!), you'll > have good luck with it. > >> after seeing the text quality, I am thinking abandoning my inkjet printer for text-only documents >> the halftoning is visible when printing out pictures, but that's why i bought it > Consumer-grade ink jet printers are rarely a good solution for *anything*. > > -Dave > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 16 14:06:25 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:06:25 -0700 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <20130416104047.B33578@shell.lmi.net> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <20130416104047.B33578@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <516DA131.2050106@sydex.com> On 04/16/2013 10:57 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Barge changed their formula ("can't use xxx in the formula anymore"). > The current stuff is crap compared to what it once was. A friend has > been watching eBay for NOS of the old formula, without success. > One ad had the new formula, but the picture was the packaging > of the old formula. The old formula used toluene--I did learn that. Perhaps mixing some of that (I can get it at a paint store) into the new formula may make a difference. > Most modern shoes are not resoleable. Most don't even have a slip-sole! > AND they're so badly made that the uppers are worn-out before the soles, > AND the public has been conditioned to demand NEW shoes instead of > re-soling, which costs a good chunk of what the new ones cost. A lot of "leather" shoes are now made by gluing pieces of leather to a cotton "sock" and then adding some light stitching where appearance matters. Soles seem to be universally glued on, rather than sewn. Garbage-for-looks. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 14:07:59 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 15:07:59 -0400 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 16, 2013, at 2:16 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> I still think I can fix it, since I've identified the bad >> transistor, but if it weren't a $200 coffee maker, I don't >> think I'd have considered it worth the effort. Things just >> aren't made to be fixed anymore; you can't buy replacement >> PSU or controller boards, so if the microcontroller had died, >> there'd be basically no hope. > > Some people do that for fun. Like me :o) I fix things for fun, but fixing this coffee maker has NOT been fun. Part of that has been the awful construction of the machine - it was clearly NEVER meant to be taken apart, because a lot of the wiring harnesses were run through small slots BEFORE their sockets were attached, and the resulting wires are too short to allow the thing to be taken apart. The other not-so-nice part has been the apparently indelible scent of toasted cockroach mixed with the aroma of soggy, stale coffee beans that fell over the years into the water reservoir. I'd rather fix the percolator next time, but I doubt it'll break before this thing kicks it again. - Dave From b4 at gewt.net Tue Apr 16 14:09:41 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:09:41 -0000 Subject: computing the old way References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> <516D8C57.9030103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516DA1F5.7020700@gewt.net> On 04/16/2013 01:58 PM, David Riley wrote: > > On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 04/16/2013 12:19 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>> In this modern day of pushing for everything to be web based, I am SO >>>> frustrated by my hosting company being down for the last 9.5 hours due to a >>>> DNS resolving issue. The old methods would never have had these problems.. >>> >>> That's not as bad as a provider trying to coverup and downplay a breach where >>> CCs were taken, I guess. It took them about that long to make a blog post >>> about it! >>> >>> How do they have DNS issues for 9.5 hours? It should be as simple a fix as a >>> reboot of the DNS server in this case. >> >> Ah, no. There's almost nothing involving hosed DNS that involves rebooting >> a nameserver. Nameservers are typically not Windows boxes. (standpoint: I >> ran some of the largest nameservers on the enter network many years ago, and >> I run some rather non-trivial ones now) > > Well, unless your DNS server has crashed for some perfectly valid > reason. Say, maybe, the janitor bumped into the server rack and > accidentally ejected a hot-swap drive and caused a kernel panic. > I've heard of that happening (to companies who subsequently either > got rack doors or stopped letting the janitors clean the server > room). I was assuming it was a non-trivial fault. I'm used to DNS servers not failing I guess. ;) My home DNS server crashed when my CD-ROM drive failed once...kept running until I tried to update the zonefile. HOW DOES A CD-ROM DRIVE SPONTANEOUSLY FAIL?! > > > - Dave > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From b4 at gewt.net Tue Apr 16 14:10:32 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:10:32 -0000 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516DA228.7090900@gewt.net> On 04/16/2013 01:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/16/2013 06:27 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: >> I've got my dot-matrix printer yesterday, I tried it today >> its a PANASONIC KX-P1121E[1], I got it from ebay[2] >> i've only tried it on my windows XP system (please shot me :) ) > > Nice! Panasonic makes EXCELLENT impact printers. ~25 years ago, I bought > a KX-P1124 on the "payroll deduction plan" at work. (we were a dealer) It was > an amazingly good printer, plastic case but indestructible, and great output. > I sold it eons ago, but I was given another one recently, and got all > nostalgic about it. :) Congrats on a good printer. If their new ones are as > good as their old ones (and in their case, they may very well be!), you'll > have good luck with it. > >> after seeing the text quality, I am thinking abandoning my inkjet printer for text-only documents >> the halftoning is visible when printing out pictures, but that's why i bought it > > Consumer-grade ink jet printers are rarely a good solution for *anything*. I dunno, they're pretty damn good for target practice. > > -Dave > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From b4 at gewt.net Tue Apr 16 14:12:57 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:12:57 -0000 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <516D8EA0.3070008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516DA2B9.1080501@gewt.net> On 04/16/2013 01:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/16/2013 01:27 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> ... computer gear isn't alone in the "don't replace, throw away" category. >>> >> >> It's infected everything. > > Much to the delight of slimy salesmen everywhere. > >> This city (Toronto) still has leather/shoe >> repairers, though. > > There's one a mile or two from my place, but this is a very old area. He's > still open, in his tiny little shop...I don't know how much business he gets, > but I hope it's "some" at least. I hope so as well, it takes dedication to keep a business like that open this long. I'm betting he's pretty good at repairing shoes by now. :) > > -Dave > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From b4 at gewt.net Tue Apr 16 14:15:11 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:15:11 -0000 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516DA33F.5090402@gewt.net> On 04/16/2013 01:47 PM, David Riley wrote: > > On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:27 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 16/04/13 1:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> ... computer gear isn't alone in the "don't replace, throw away" category. >>> >> >> It's infected everything. This city (Toronto) still has leather/shoe repairers, though. > > We have them in Philadelphia, too. It can get hard to justify > when it costs more to repair/resole a shoe than to buy a new > pair, but my wife is an opera performer, so sometimes it's > important enough to repair a pair that looks good. > > Appliances are my big beef. I have a coffee maker with the > grinder built in that I REALLY like. Somehow, the bottom part > got colonized by roaches (which, fortunately, don't seem to > have taken root anywhere else in the house), so I thoroughly > flushed it out with soap and water and let it dry for about a > month. Everything works EXCEPT the transistor that switches > the relay that turns on the heater, which makes it pretty > useless as a coffee maker. Taking the thing apart was totally > impossible without marring the appearance, and some parts are > nearly impossible to put back together; the low-voltage PSU > for the microcontroller and the relay were all sealed in a > caulked-up box at the bottom that was impossible to remove. > I still think I can fix it, since I've identified the bad > transistor, but if it weren't a $200 coffee maker, I don't > think I'd have considered it worth the effort. Things just > aren't made to be fixed anymore; you can't buy replacement > PSU or controller boards, so if the microcontroller had died, > there'd be basically no hope. > > As a side note, we've been getting along fine with a separate > grinder and a Farberware percolator whose design hasn't been > changed since at least the '60s with the exception of using > an IEC receptacle for the power cord. So there's that. My > in-laws still use theirs from the '60s, so I'm reasonably > confident that it should last. Hey, so it's like SHARP microwaves! Those things don't change and they last forever. Seriously. > > > - Dave > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 16 14:16:34 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:16:34 -0700 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <05DB2F64-D046-4F8B-9358-3BC8BBDBFCC8@gmail.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <05DB2F64-D046-4F8B-9358-3BC8BBDBFCC8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516DA392.10805@sydex.com> On 04/16/2013 11:02 AM, David Riley wrote: > And they're an especially poor solution for text, given how expensive > inkjet ink is compared to toner or (easily-refillable) ribbon ink. King Camp Gillette's "give them the razor, but sell them the blades" philosophy at work, although he certainly didn't invent it. Indeed, I've seen inkjet printers selling for less than the cost of a replacement cartridge. Modern laser printers are likewise often sold with a half-full (or less) toner cartridge. Of course, now we trade in wholly-disposable razors, complete with blade. I use the double-edged safety razor that I used when I started shaving. Thank heavens one can still find double-edged blades for sale. Grandpa used a straight razor and strop, but I haven't the courage to go that route, bleary-eyed as I am in the morning... --Chuck From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 14:17:01 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 14:17:01 -0500 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <69D3071E-8137-48BF-9570-90D5AF5E4C7A@gmail.com> Those are good printers. Those and epsons were good consumer grade printers. Citizen on the other hand... Ugh! Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2013, at 5:27 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > I've got my dot-matrix printer yesterday, I tried it today > its a PANASONIC KX-P1121E[1], I got it from ebay[2] > i've only tried it on my windows XP system (please shot me :) ) > > after seeing the text quality, I am thinking abandoning my inkjet printer for text-only documents > the halftoning is visible when printing out pictures, but that's why i bought it > > > > [1] http://panasonic.net/pcc/products/printer/kx-p1121e_plus/index.html > [2] http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281043814175 > > --- > tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" > Child of the Internet born 1983 > PGP ID: A7EF6006 > Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 16 14:24:22 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:24:22 -0600 Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> Message-ID: <516DA566.60006@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/16/2013 10:19 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > On 04/16/2013 11:21 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >> >> In this modern day of pushing for everything to be web based, I am SO >> frustrated by my hosting company being down for the last 9.5 hours due >> to a >> DNS resolving issue. The old methods would never have had these >> problems.. > > That's not as bad as a provider trying to coverup and downplay a breach > where CCs were taken, I guess. It took them about that long to make a > blog post about it! > > How do they have DNS issues for 9.5 hours? It should be as simple a fix > as a reboot of the DNS server in this case. > Servers tend to get lost. We put up a new wall 15 years ago, and the all the severs I think were moved. Ben. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 14:45:42 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 16:45:42 -0300 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <516DA228.7090900@gewt.net> Message-ID: >I dunno, they're pretty damn good for target practice. And for getting nice motors, encoders, sensors and SMD parts =) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 13:59:41 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:59:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: <516C6FB7.7000506@gewt.net> from "Cory Smelosky" at Apr 15, 13 09:23:03 pm Message-ID: > > When you first start working on the internals of a processor at this sort > > of level there is a lot to learn. But it does all make sense in the end, > > or at least it did for me. > > I could probably do the same with the right knowledge and enough time! Of course you can. There's no real magic involved. Just a lot of practice (at least in my case). But if you want to learn and are prepared to spend time learning, then you can do it too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 14:02:23 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:02:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: New hardware project... In-Reply-To: from "Hutch" at Apr 15, 13 11:58:29 am Message-ID: > website. When making my cable from the Sun to the Extron, I had to keep it > very short ...6 inch...because the ECL had a problem with long cables. The THat suprises me. An ECL line driver (and I assume that's waht Sun used) should eb able to drive a fairly long cable provided it is of a suitable type and correctly terminated. What cable were you sueing, and how did you terminate it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 14:08:28 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:08:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516C7141.8060807@gewt.net> from "Cory Smelosky" at Apr 15, 13 09:29:37 pm Message-ID: > > And for landline phoens, I've got plenty of 700 series (1060's, 1970's) > > that work fine and a 332 (1940's) in need of a bit of restoration. But > > that I can do. > > Those will pretty much last forever. Indeed. Well, there is one part in one such telephone that has a limited life -- the batelight in a TRIMphone. But it stil lworks when that has decayed, it jsut doesn't glow i nthe dark. Some later 700 series -- particualrly 70s and 746s, had what is known as a Dial 54. This was, IIRC< the last type of rtary dial, and it's almost all plastic. The mainspting fits into a slot in the plastic bearing, and after about 30 years, it cracks and the dial no longer runs back. I have a fix for this, but it takes an afternoon (basically, strip the dial down, drill out the old bearing housign nad repalce it with a machiend brass one. But apart from that there's little to go wrong. > > The only thing I 'own' thet I don't fix myself is my cat :-) > > Yeah, manufacturers don't exactly release schematics for those. :) That's not waht bothers me. I've fixed many thigns without official scheamtics... The problem is that the system software of the cat, includign the microcode, is stored in volatile memeory. So if you cut the power supply to the processor (brain), the thign can't be rebooted. So I leave such repairs to people who know what they are doing. You can't learn as you go. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 14:14:04 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:14:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore C65 prototype sells for 17,827 Euros! In-Reply-To: <516C8327.5070708@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 15, 13 05:45:59 pm Message-ID: > I expect it's worse for us because to the majority computers are seen as > complex beasts, and therefore it's hard to fix them when they do go wrong - > and that's assuming that the failed part isn't pure unobtanium (or that > pulls from working systems don't exist). I suspect this may be one reason I dislike a lot of modern stuff. I grew up undertansing everything I worked with (or at least tryign to), nut modern stuff is so complicated that I don;t think anyone underttads it all. > > Is there such a thing as an electronics restorer, in the same way that > there are people who restore furniture, or rebuild vintage car engines > etc.? (and who, in their line of work, can possibly make a needed part if > one doesn't exist) Well, yes... I do it all the time... Problem is that nobody will pay be for doing it (we will deal wit hthe legalities later...) The fact is that doing a rull restoration fo a reasonably complex vintage computer takes a long time -- perhaps 50-100 hours. More if tyhe docuemtnation does not exist. And at a reasonable hourly rate, that suddenly makes some of those 'ridiculously high E-bay prixcs' for old machiens look like pocket change... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 16 14:23:02 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:23:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <72800840-AD4B-461B-AB99-11C661597914@gewt.net> from "Cory Smelosky" at Apr 16, 13 06:17:00 am Message-ID: K> Good point. I wouldn't want to plug a multimeter or an oscilloscope > in to a cat. Actually, given a good isolation amplifier (I wouldn't attempt it withot), I suspect you could get sueful signals from electrodes o ntej outside of a cat and dispaly them o na 'scope. But I would want to try it on myself first, I am less vlaualbe than a cat... > > PS: Condolences to Tony from me as well. I'm dreading the day I'll > > be losing one of my parents. > > Condolences from me as well. Thank you. My motehr dieed about 3 eyars ago, my father died a few months back, so I anm now essentially on my own. It's not pleasant... -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 15:08:02 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 16:08:02 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <516DA392.10805@sydex.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <05DB2F64-D046-4F8B-9358-3BC8BBDBFCC8@gmail.com> <516DA392.10805@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Apr 16, 2013, at 3:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/16/2013 11:02 AM, David Riley wrote: > >> And they're an especially poor solution for text, given how expensive >> inkjet ink is compared to toner or (easily-refillable) ribbon ink. > > King Camp Gillette's "give them the razor, but sell them the blades" philosophy at work, although he certainly didn't invent it. Indeed, I've seen inkjet printers selling for less than the cost of a replacement cartridge. Modern laser printers are likewise often sold with a half-full (or less) toner cartridge. > > Of course, now we trade in wholly-disposable razors, complete with blade. I use the double-edged safety razor that I used when I started shaving. Thank heavens one can still find double-edged blades for sale. Gillette definitely still does that. They sent me a Mach 3 right around the time I turned 18 (not as long ago as some on this list :-). It was actually a little creepy, since I hadn't had any business with them before, but I guess they Just Know? In any case, it worked, because I still use the same razor more than 10 years later. Schick sent me a coupon for a free razor a few months ago and I figured I'd try it out, but their strategy backfired; it gave me the opportunity to discover that their razors are absolute garbage that literally fall apart and leave junk (the "moisturizing strip") on your face. I'm tempted to try double-bladed razors, since the blades are quite a bit cheaper than the Mach 3 ones, but so far I've been too lazy. I did find a local purveyor of proper cakes of shaving soap, but that's what comes of living around hipsters. :-) > Grandpa used a straight razor and strop, but I haven't the courage to go that route, bleary-eyed as I am in the morning... I'm just worried my 18-month-old daughter would find it and we'd have a reenactment of Sweeney Todd. - Dave From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 15:08:25 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 16:08:25 -0400 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> Message-ID: > The other not-so-nice part has been the apparently indelible > scent of toasted cockroach mixed with the aroma of soggy, > stale coffee beans that fell over the years into the water > reservoir. Mental note - when at Dave's house, ask for tea. -- Will From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 15:10:39 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 16:10:39 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system Message-ID: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if anyone was interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish) IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here: http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what to do. Time to read up... - Dave From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 15:11:13 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 16:11:13 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <05DB2F64-D046-4F8B-9358-3BC8BBDBFCC8@gmail.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <05DB2F64-D046-4F8B-9358-3BC8BBDBFCC8@gmail.com> Message-ID: > And they're an especially poor solution for text, given how expensive > inkjet ink is compared to toner or (easily-refillable) ribbon ink. Cripes, guys, stop buying shit paper. -- Will From b4 at gewt.net Tue Apr 16 15:14:45 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:14:45 -0000 Subject: computing the old way References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> <516DA566.60006@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7484E3E5-18C1-4E02-A44C-52F8C260E318@gewt.net> On 16 Apr 2013, at 15:24, "ben" wrote: > > On 4/16/2013 10:19 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> >> On 04/16/2013 11:21 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>> >>> In this modern day of pushing for everything to be web based, I am SO >>> frustrated by my hosting company being down for the last 9.5 hours due >>> to a >>> DNS resolving issue. The old methods would never have had these >>> problems.. >> >> That's not as bad as a provider trying to coverup and downplay a breach >> where CCs were taken, I guess. It took them about that long to make a >> blog post about it! >> >> How do they have DNS issues for 9.5 hours? It should be as simple a fix >> as a reboot of the DNS server in this case. >> > > Servers tend to get lost. We put up a new wall 15 years ago, and the all the severs I think were moved. > Ben. It's always amusing when large servers get physically lost. ;) ?especially when they remain running for years without issue doing nothing except serving a single static page everything else depends on. > > From b4 at gewt.net Tue Apr 16 15:18:47 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:18:47 -0000 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <516DA228.7090900@gewt.net> Message-ID: <5448850B-A086-4474-8CD3-2DA8CBD67D25@gewt.net> On 16 Apr 2013, at 15:45, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: > >> I dunno, they're pretty damn good for target practice. > > And for getting nice motors, encoders, sensors and SMD parts =) That too! From sales at elecplus.com Tue Apr 16 15:27:45 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 15:27:45 -0500 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <516DA228.7090900@gewt.net> Message-ID: <03c701ce3ae0$daf333e0$90d99ba0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 2:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: got my dot-matrix printer >I dunno, they're pretty damn good for target practice. And for getting nice motors, encoders, sensors and SMD parts =) The robotics clubs love old inkjets and dot matrix and lasers for the gears, motors, ribbon cables, etc. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6247 - Release Date: 04/15/13 From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 16 15:30:12 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <69D3071E-8137-48BF-9570-90D5AF5E4C7A@gmail.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <69D3071E-8137-48BF-9570-90D5AF5E4C7A@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Those are good printers. Those and epsons were good consumer grade > printers. Citizen on the other hand... Ugh! I miss the Star NX-1000 I had. Nice printer. No clue what happened to it. Probably lost it in the move along with my much-missed Royal AlphaTronic system) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 16 15:45:12 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 13:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130416134445.J33578@shell.lmi.net> > > > And for landline phoens, I've got plenty of 700 series (1060's, 1970's) > > > that work fine and a 332 (1940's) in need of a bit of restoration. But > > > that I can do. > > Those will pretty much last forever. other than some annoying carbon granule clumping. From b4 at gewt.net Tue Apr 16 16:01:22 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:01:22 -0000 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? References: <72800840-AD4B-461B-AB99-11C661597914@gewt.net> <> Message-ID: <3D4107DC-0115-4FFC-9E44-61FA0559DC0B@gewt.net> On 16 Apr 2013, at 15:23, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > > K> Good point. I wouldn't want to plug a multimeter or an oscilloscope >> in to a cat. > > Actually, given a good isolation amplifier (I wouldn't attempt it > withot), I suspect you could get sueful signals from electrodes o ntej > outside of a cat and dispaly them o na 'scope. But I would want to try it > on myself first, I am less vlaualbe than a cat? But what would the electrodes measure? ;) Capacitance of the cat? Bioelectric fields or something? > >>> PS: Condolences to Tony from me as well. I'm dreading the day I'll >>> be losing one of my parents. >> >> Condolences from me as well. > > Thank you. My motehr dieed about 3 eyars ago, my father died a few months > back, so I anm now essentially on my own. It's not pleasant? Yeah?that would not be very pleasant. > > -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 16:15:26 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 22:15:26 +0100 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516DBF6E.3070605@gmail.com> On 16/04/2013 21:08, William Donzelli wrote: >> The other not-so-nice part has been the apparently indelible >> scent of toasted cockroach mixed with the aroma of soggy, >> stale coffee beans that fell over the years into the water >> reservoir. > Mental note - when at Dave's house, ask for tea. I would have said instant coffee. Who know what he has had in the Teapot :-) > > -- > Will Dave G4UGM From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 16:41:58 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:41:58 -0400 Subject: New hardware project... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516DC5A6.1060307@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2013 03:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> website. When making my cable from the Sun to the Extron, I had to keep it >> very short ...6 inch...because the ECL had a problem with long cables. The > > THat suprises me. An ECL line driver (and I assume that's waht Sun used) > should eb able to drive a fairly long cable provided it is of a suitable > type and correctly terminated. > > What cable were you sueing, and how did you terminate it? Unless my memory is failing much more severely than I think, the OP said he's running a 3/140, and the 3/140 has an onboard *color* framebuffer whose outputs are analog RGB with separate sync, not ECL. Quite a few Sun framebuffers have ECL outputs, but they're all very old ones (older than the 3/140) and all monochrome. It was not at all uncommon to drive those monitors through fifteen or twenty feet of cable; I still have some of those long cables somewhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 16:42:52 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:42:52 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <516D9ADF.4030308@smbfc.net> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <516D9ADF.4030308@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <516DC5DC.3080405@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2013 02:39 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > Indeed, I have a KX-P1124 with the 4 color ribbon attachment (which is a kick > to print banners out on for events at this point). I really wish I had more > of a use for it. Great printer, nice output, etc. > > Enjoy! Wow, I didn't know there was a multi-color attachment for the 1124, that's neat! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Tue Apr 16 16:45:09 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:45:09 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516DC665.8090003@gewt.net> On 04/16/2013 04:10 PM, David Riley wrote: > > Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if anyone was > interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish) > IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com > seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here: > > http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY > > I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what > to do. Time to read up... Interesting! I've requested an account. Time to read up as well. ;) Speaking of random public-access systems...if anyone wants access to a public access (simulation) of 4.3BSD, let me know. > > > - Dave > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 16:50:17 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:50:17 -0400 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 16, 2013, at 16:08, William Donzelli wrote: >> The other not-so-nice part has been the apparently indelible >> scent of toasted cockroach mixed with the aroma of soggy, >> stale coffee beans that fell over the years into the water >> reservoir. > > Mental note - when at Dave's house, ask for tea. Ha! We're not barbarians here. If the bugs had gotten on any of the parts that actually handled the water or coffee, I would have thrown the thing out without thinking twice. Fortunately, the circuitry is kept well isolated from the water (presumably for the obvious reasons) and they were only interested in the heater. No smell once it's closed up, either. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 16:50:59 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:50:59 -0400 Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> <516D8C57.9030103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516DC7C3.1080300@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2013 01:58 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>> In this modern day of pushing for everything to be web based, I am SO >>>> frustrated by my hosting company being down for the last 9.5 hours due to a >>>> DNS resolving issue. The old methods would never have had these problems.. >>> >>> That's not as bad as a provider trying to coverup and downplay a breach where >>> CCs were taken, I guess. It took them about that long to make a blog post >>> about it! >>> >>> How do they have DNS issues for 9.5 hours? It should be as simple a fix as a >>> reboot of the DNS server in this case. >> >> Ah, no. There's almost nothing involving hosed DNS that involves rebooting >> a nameserver. Nameservers are typically not Windows boxes. (standpoint: I >> ran some of the largest nameservers on the enter network many years ago, and >> I run some rather non-trivial ones now) > > Well, unless your DNS server has crashed for some perfectly valid > reason. Say, maybe, the janitor bumped into the server rack and > accidentally ejected a hot-swap drive and caused a kernel panic. > I've heard of that happening (to companies who subsequently either > got rack doors or stopped letting the janitors clean the server > room). Letting janitors in the server room is an unbelievably stupid thing to do in the first place, and the downtime is what they had coming. I will (and HAVE) clean the damn room myself before I'd let that happen. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Tue Apr 16 06:46:05 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:46:05 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: H780 power supply In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:46:44 -0400" <4802F0F2-E1C1-45D9-9260-84FEF2ED92E1@gmail.com> References: <201304110021.UAA22211@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1366075443.37969.YahooMailNeo@web141406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4802F0F2-E1C1-45D9-9260-84FEF2ED92E1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01OSJU8YEQ90006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> > >I didn't realize until your reply that my phone auto-corrected >"too low" to "two low". How embarrassing. > It's done it again. It changed "auto-goofed" to "auto-corrected". Orwell was not far wrong about television and newspeak but he failed to predict that nearly everyone would have a personal tracking device which automatically censored their communications :-) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Apr 16 13:41:43 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 11:41:43 -0700 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516D9B67.90400@jwsss.com> On 4/16/2013 10:47 AM, David Riley wrote: >> >It's infected everything. This city (Toronto) still has leather/shoe repairers, though. > We have them in Philadelphia, too. It can get hard to justify > when it costs more to repair/resole a shoe than to buy a new > pair, but my wife is an opera performer, so sometimes it's > important enough to repair a pair that looks good. There are shoe repair services (more than one) in Orange County, ca, but my latest service that went missing was knife sharpening. jim From jonas at otter.se Tue Apr 16 13:45:13 2013 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:45:13 +0200 Subject: Hardware vs Simh In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516D9C39.9070100@otter.se> On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 21:08:47 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Ah, but to me the hardare is just an interestign electronic circuit that > happens to execute programs. In otehr words I think of the gates and > flip-flops, not the program instrucions. I totally agree! > > I think this is why I find the peripehrals to be as interesting as the > CPU in a lot of caes. Ubnderstnading the cotnrol state machine of the > HP9866 printer was as interestign to me as understandignthe microcode > (and sequencer) of the HP9830 that drives it. I totally agree with that, too. I remember when I was doing my thesis, I printed it on the department's Qume daisywheel printer. They had the service manual with complete schematics. It was very interesting, with analogue servos for the carriage motor. A very nice piece of equipment. Not to mention the 11/40 we used, or the big 80 MB Ampex disk drives. /Jonas From shutchman at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 16:20:16 2013 From: shutchman at gmail.com (Hutch) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:20:16 -0400 Subject: New hardware project... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used the same cable that was originally connected to the original CRT monitor. The cable was at least 6 foot long, straight through DB9 on both ends. I was getting blurring and ghosting on the VGA monitor using this long cable. I did not have any terminations once I connected the Sun to the extron 201xi. perhaps I could have put some terminating resistors on the end of the cable connecting to the Extron. The 6 inch cable with unsheilded straight 20 guage wires worked just fine. I found a schematic for the frame buffer card in the SUN, and it had a resistor termination scheme along with the 10H131 chips , but not sure what's at the Extron 202xi input. The just sharing with the group the results. I'm sure improvements could be made to allow for a longer cable. On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > website. When making my cable from the Sun to the Extron, I had to keep > it > > very short ...6 inch...because the ECL had a problem with long cables. > The > > THat suprises me. An ECL line driver (and I assume that's waht Sun used) > should eb able to drive a fairly long cable provided it is of a suitable > type and correctly terminated. > > What cable were you sueing, and how did you terminate it? > > -tony > -- e-? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 16 17:04:17 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 15:04:17 -0700 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <05DB2F64-D046-4F8B-9358-3BC8BBDBFCC8@gmail.com> <516DA392.10805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <516DCAE1.9090900@sydex.com> On 04/16/2013 01:08 PM, David Riley wrote: > I'm tempted to try double-bladed razors, since the blades are quite a > bit cheaper than the Mach 3 ones, but so far I've been too lazy. I did > find a local purveyor of proper cakes of shaving soap, but that's what > comes of living around hipsters. :-) I do use shaving soap--it has a very different texture than out-of-a-can shaving gel that I like very much. I finish up with a dash of witch hazel. > I'm just worried my 18-month-old daughter would find it and we'd have a > reenactment of Sweeney Todd. Grandpa had a strict rule that *nobody* but *nobody* touched his razor. Who knows, it might not work the same way if you borrowed it to, oh, say, peel potatoes... --Chuck From a50mhzham at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 17:16:09 2013 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:16:09 -0500 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com > References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <516dcf19.47e6ec0a.039b.ffff961a@mx.google.com> Still have my NEC P6. Haven't fired it up in years. Wonder if Winders 7 has a driver for it... At 05:27 AM 4/16/2013, you wrote: >I've got my dot-matrix printer yesterday, I >tried it today its a PANASONIC KX-P1121E[1], I >got it from ebay[2] i've only tried it on my >windows XP system (please shot me :) ) after >seeing the text quality, I am thinking >abandoning my inkjet printer for text-only >documents the halftoning is visible when >printing out pictures, but that's why i bought >it [1] >http://panasonic.net/pcc/products/printer/kx-p1121e_plus/index.html >[2] http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/281043814175 --- >tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" >Child of the Internet born 1983 PGP ID: A7EF6006 >Please use ISO approved file formats excluding >Office Open XML - >http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html >Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 973 . The Internet is the Viagra of big business. -- Jack Welch, Chairman and CEO, General Electric a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 17:32:22 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 18:32:22 -0400 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516DBF6E.3070605@gmail.com> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> <516DBF6E.3070605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <80663AD2-D538-444E-B3B8-A39BA1C4DFD6@gmail.com> On Apr 16, 2013, at 17:15, Dave wrote: > On 16/04/2013 21:08, William Donzelli wrote: >>> The other not-so-nice part has been the apparently indelible >>> scent of toasted cockroach mixed with the aroma of soggy, >>> stale coffee beans that fell over the years into the water >>> reservoir. >> Mental note - when at Dave's house, ask for tea. > > I would have said instant coffee. Who know what he has had in the Teapot :-) Oh, we just stick with standard Boiled Rat Tea. Nothing to fuss about. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 17:34:31 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 18:34:31 -0400 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516D9B67.90400@jwsss.com> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> <516D9B67.90400@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <27C89226-295F-4A3D-92A6-AF7C5656DF37@gmail.com> On Apr 16, 2013, at 14:41, jim s wrote: > > On 4/16/2013 10:47 AM, David Riley wrote: >>> >It's infected everything. This city (Toronto) still has leather/shoe repairers, though. >> We have them in Philadelphia, too. It can get hard to justify >> when it costs more to repair/resole a shoe than to buy a new >> pair, but my wife is an opera performer, so sometimes it's >> important enough to repair a pair that looks good. > There are shoe repair services (more than one) in Orange County, ca, but my latest service that went missing was knife sharpening. At least in Philly, both services (plus scissor sharpening and key duplication) are available from most of the Korean-owned dry cleaning shops. It's odd, but they do a pretty good job. - Dave From wilson at dbit.com Tue Apr 16 19:11:36 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:11:36 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <05DB2F64-D046-4F8B-9358-3BC8BBDBFCC8@gmail.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <05DB2F64-D046-4F8B-9358-3BC8BBDBFCC8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130417001136.GA25198@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 02:02:44PM -0400, David Riley wrote: >And they're an especially poor solution for text, given how expensive >inkjet ink is compared to toner or (easily-refillable) ribbon ink. Seriously! I have a pair of DEC LA95s that I bought over ten years ago (Jameco was dumping them cheap -- I got a third as a spare but have never even opened the box since other than popping the 160 uF caps in the PSUs the first two have been bulletproof), which I use for printing mailing labels and diskette labels. A year or two ago I bought a wad of spare ribbons just because I couldn't believe someone was still selling them new, but I don't know why because the original 1990s ribbons are still going strong... Last time I looked there was at least one vendor online still selling brand-new bulk ribbon (for you to wind yourself onto the old spools) so there's still a fallback for TTYs or LA30s/LA36s/LA120s/etc. when the ribbons finally get too tattered to re-ink. John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 16 19:25:07 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:25:07 -0700 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <516dcf19.47e6ec0a.039b.ffff961a@mx.google.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516dcf19.47e6ec0a.039b.ffff961a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <516DEBE3.3010006@sydex.com> On 04/16/2013 03:16 PM, Tom wrote: > Still have my NEC P6. Haven't fired it up in years. Wonder if Winders 7 > has a driver for it... I still have my two Durango F-85s with integrated multipass NLQ printers, complete with downloadable fonts. As well as a couple of daisy-wheel (NEC and Olivetti) printers. The thing about printers is that you can't GIVE them away... --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 19:26:55 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:26:55 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <20130417001136.GA25198@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <05DB2F64-D046-4F8B-9358-3BC8BBDBFCC8@gmail.com> <20130417001136.GA25198@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3FDC8D14-C686-454C-B9D1-837EC3437DF2@gmail.com> On Apr 16, 2013, at 8:11 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 02:02:44PM -0400, David Riley wrote: >> And they're an especially poor solution for text, given how expensive >> inkjet ink is compared to toner or (easily-refillable) ribbon ink. > > Seriously! I have a pair of DEC LA95s that I bought over ten years ago > (Jameco was dumping them cheap -- I got a third as a spare but have > never even opened the box since other than popping the 160 uF caps in > the PSUs the first two have been bulletproof), which I use for printing > mailing labels and diskette labels. A year or two ago I bought a wad of > spare ribbons just because I couldn't believe someone was still selling > them new, but I don't know why because the original 1990s ribbons are > still going strong... People are still selling ribbons for Apple's ImageWriter as well. That's not *too* surprising, since lots of businesses still want impact printers for multipart forms, and at least the original ImageWriter (I don't know about the II) was a pretty common C. Itoh mechanism. In any case, I have three spare ribbons, but the one it came to me installed with five years ago is still fine for printing the occasional text. I need to get more tractor feed paper (which, fortunately, is also still sold, though finding the motivation to spend $30 on it is harder). > Last time I looked there was at least one vendor online still selling > brand-new bulk ribbon (for you to wind yourself onto the old spools) so > there's still a fallback for TTYs or LA30s/LA36s/LA120s/etc. when the > ribbons finally get too tattered to re-ink. That's pretty spiffy. I imagine it's handy for typewriter ribbons if they sell the proper width as well. - Dave From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Apr 16 19:35:43 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:35:43 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516dcf19.47e6ec0a.039b.ffff961a@mx.google.com> <516DEBE3.3010006@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6986105A62B04CCBB7BAAC5EAB19CF08@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:25 PM Subject: Re: got my dot-matrix printer > On 04/16/2013 03:16 PM, Tom wrote: >> Still have my NEC P6. Haven't fired it up in years. Wonder if Winders 7 >> has a driver for it... > > I still have my two Durango F-85s with integrated multipass NLQ printers, > complete with downloadable fonts. > > As well as a couple of daisy-wheel (NEC and Olivetti) printers. > > The thing about printers is that you can't GIVE them away... > > --Chuck > > They are heavy to ship and noisy to use. Fanfold paper is not that common anymore and neither are parallel ports. Still I like the old dot matrix printers more then the old inkjets so I have a few 24 pin models in the basement plus an Apple Imagewriter II and some 9 pin Atari/Commodore ones. All of them were local finds and free one included a big box of fanfold paper too, not sure I would actually pay for one. Its just more convenient to connect an old LaserJet to an old machine and I have kept all my old laser printers for that use (they still work). From rollerton at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 20:26:32 2013 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 18:26:32 -0700 Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? In-Reply-To: <201304161627.r3GGRP60085218@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304161627.r3GGRP60085218@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: I have had about 25 800 and 1200' reels of 16mm converted by http://www.pixcel.com/ and have been very satisfied. You can get a packed up dvd, or the raw digital image on a USB drive that you can then edit and master your own media. They have specials now and then if you are on their mail list. Btw, WD40 works great for removing old tape and labels from reels and cans. If your film is dirty, or you need supplies suggest you look into "filmrenew" from Ubanski films. On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 9:21 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 11:16 AM 4/16/2013, Bob Vines wrote: > >Which "film to digital" service did you use? I have a box of 8mm > >family videos taken in the '60s-'70s that I would really like to save. > > It sounds like you are very happy with the results. > > http://filmtransfer.com/ , now < > http://pixcel.com/>http://pixcel.com/ . Look around > for a coupon / Groupon, they do have discounts and frequent promotions. > > I think this digital scanning of old film is entirely apropos > for computer preservationists. Many early computer animations > were recorded this way. It seems like many film-to-digital > conversions happened by way of steps that involved NTSC video. > That's a shame, and reminds us of the lesson of the value of > keeping the original material. > > - John > > From jason at smbfc.net Tue Apr 16 20:36:26 2013 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:36:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <516DC5DC.3080405@neurotica.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <516D9ADF.4030308@smbfc.net> <516DC5DC.3080405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Sorry, I misremembered. I just checked, and I have a KX-P2123, which is still an amazing printer :) Especially with the 4 color kit KX-PCK11 color kit. I did some searching around, but was unable to find a color kit for the 1124, sorry Dave. -- Jason Sent from Alpine On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/16/2013 02:39 PM, Jason Howe wrote: >> Indeed, I have a KX-P1124 with the 4 color ribbon attachment (which is a kick >> to print banners out on for events at this point). I really wish I had more >> of a use for it. Great printer, nice output, etc. >> >> Enjoy! > > Wow, I didn't know there was a multi-color attachment for the 1124, that's > neat! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 20:31:36 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:31:36 -0500 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <516DA228.7090900@gewt.net> Message-ID: <516DFB78.5000001@gmail.com> On 04/16/2013 02:45 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I dunno, they're pretty damn good for target practice. > > And for getting nice motors, encoders, sensors and SMD parts =) TBH, I've had a few I've acquired just for parts, and there's not a lot of useful stuff in them - I keep the geartrains, but not much else. Too much plastic, and too few components (lots of custom silicon) for me to bother trying to salvage things from the PCBs. A dot matrix printer would yield far more useful bits and pieces (to me), but of course I wouldn't dream of tearing one apart! (I've been trying to find one locally, actually, and they've all vanished) cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 21:20:17 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 22:20:17 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <516D9ADF.4030308@smbfc.net> <516DC5DC.3080405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516E06E1.2000802@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2013 09:36 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > Sorry, I misremembered. I just checked, and I have a KX-P2123, which is > still an amazing printer :) Especially with the 4 color kit KX-PCK11 color > kit. I did some searching around, but was unable to find a color kit for the > 1124, sorry Dave. Ahh, no worries! Great printers either way. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 16 21:35:45 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 22:35:45 -0400 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516E0A81.9070904@neurotica.com> On 04/16/2013 05:50 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> The other not-so-nice part has been the apparently indelible >>> scent of toasted cockroach mixed with the aroma of soggy, >>> stale coffee beans that fell over the years into the water >>> reservoir. >> >> Mental note - when at Dave's house, ask for tea. > > Ha! We're not barbarians here. If the bugs had gotten on > any of the parts that actually handled the water or coffee, > I would have thrown the thing out without thinking twice. > Fortunately, the circuitry is kept well isolated from the water > (presumably for the obvious reasons) and they were only > interested in the heater. No smell once it's closed up, either. I had a coffee maker about six or seven years ago that inexplicably became infested with ants. When I cracked it open to clean it out (which was dubious to begin with) I found that they were all clustered around what looked like some silicone sealant in one part of the machine. Something about that big blob of sealant attracted them. That was the only place in the machine where there were ants. It hit the trash, needless to say. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Apr 16 21:58:36 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:58:36 +1200 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516E0A81.9070904@neurotica.com> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> <516E0A81.9070904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I was once given a Sinclair ZX-81 that had an ant's nest in it. It fired up but by the keyboard didn't work. A common problem in those machines now, ants or not. Terry (Tez) On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 2:35 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/16/2013 05:50 PM, David Riley wrote: > >>> The other not-so-nice part has been the apparently indelible > >>> scent of toasted cockroach mixed with the aroma of soggy, > >>> stale coffee beans that fell over the years into the water > >>> reservoir. > >> > >> Mental note - when at Dave's house, ask for tea. > > > > Ha! We're not barbarians here. If the bugs had gotten on > > any of the parts that actually handled the water or coffee, > > I would have thrown the thing out without thinking twice. > > Fortunately, the circuitry is kept well isolated from the water > > (presumably for the obvious reasons) and they were only > > interested in the heater. No smell once it's closed up, either. > > I had a coffee maker about six or seven years ago that inexplicably > became > infested with ants. When I cracked it open to clean it out (which was > dubious to begin with) I found that they were all clustered around what > looked like some silicone sealant in one part of the machine. Something > about that big blob of sealant attracted them. That was the only place in > the machine where there were ants. > > It hit the trash, needless to say. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 01:12:02 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 07:12:02 +0100 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <6986105A62B04CCBB7BAAC5EAB19CF08@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516dcf19.47e6ec0a.039b.ffff961a@mx.google.com> <516DEBE3.3010006@sydex.com> <6986105A62B04CCBB7BAAC5EAB19CF08@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On Apr 17, 2013 1:41 AM, "TeoZ" wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 8:25 PM > > Subject: Re: got my dot-matrix printer > > >> On 04/16/2013 03:16 PM, Tom wrote: >>> >>> Still have my NEC P6. Haven't fired it up in years. Wonder if Winders 7 >>> has a driver for it... >> >> >> I still have my two Durango F-85s with integrated multipass NLQ printers, complete with downloadable fonts. >> >> As well as a couple of daisy-wheel (NEC and Olivetti) printers. >> >> The thing about printers is that you can't GIVE them away... >> >> --Chuck >> >> > > They are heavy to ship and noisy to use. Fanfold paper is not that common anymore and neither are parallel ports. > No but you can often get stuff like the HP Jet direct network printer adaptors that let you put such printers on a network cheaply. Folks hung onto those after the printers were discarded. > Still I like the old dot matrix printers more then the old inkjets so I have a few 24 pin models in the basement plus an Apple Imagewriter II and some 9 pin Atari/Commodore ones. All of them were local finds and free one included a big box of fanfold paper too, not sure I would actually pay for one. Its just more convenient to connect an old LaserJet to an old machine and I have kept all my old laser printers for that use (they still work). From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 17 01:20:07 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 23:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516D8EA0.3070008@neurotica.com> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <516D8EA0.3070008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/16/2013 01:27 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> This city (Toronto) still has leather/shoe >> repairers, though. > > There's one a mile or two from my place, but this is a very old area. > He's still open, in his tiny little shop...I don't know how much > business he gets, but I hope it's "some" at least. In Bakersfield, CA, there's a shop in the shape of a giant shoe that still houses a working shoe-repair shop. It's called "The Big Shoe" and can be found in a coffee table book of weirdly-shaped buildings in the US. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 17 01:22:31 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 23:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> <025e01ce3ac7$273d1320$75b73960$@com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: >> a reboot of the DNS server in this case. >> >> Actually, in this case, it was even easier to fix. My server for some >> reason had been physically turned off! >> Kinda hard to resolve the DNS when the machine is powered off... >> > It could have been as simple as some accidentally doing a "shutdown -h" > instead of a "shutdown -r".... I've done that a few times to my home server when I was somewhere many miles away from it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 17 01:37:09 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 23:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <516DCAE1.9090900@sydex.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <05DB2F64-D046-4F8B-9358-3BC8BBDBFCC8@gmail.com> <516DA392.10805@sydex.com> <516DCAE1.9090900@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/16/2013 01:08 PM, David Riley wrote: > >> I'm tempted to try double-bladed razors, since the blades are quite a >> bit cheaper than the Mach 3 ones, but so far I've been too lazy. I did >> find a local purveyor of proper cakes of shaving soap, but that's what >> comes of living around hipsters. :-) > > I do use shaving soap--it has a very different texture than out-of-a-can > shaving gel that I like very much. I finish up with a dash of witch hazel. You might enjoy some old-fashioned homemade bay rum lotion. Look around on the wet-shaving forums. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Apr 17 04:46:33 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:46:33 +1200 Subject: Thorny diagnostic issue for an Epson QX-10 Message-ID: Symptom: A QX-10 keeps shutting down, but at random and in an erratic way. By erratic it will sometimes shutdown--Start---Shutdown--start---within a 1/2 second of each sequence. It sounds like there is a short somewhere or at least some component failing. But where? Its hard to diagnose because (1) It's intermittent and (2) I don't want to run the machine when it's flip flopping on and off. That's definitely not good for the components. I've determined that it's either the PSU or mainboard at fault. Both are for sale on e-Bay. However, I don't whant to buy both when only one is the problem. Any ideas how I might determine which? The PSU doesn't not fire at all if there is no load on it. Terry (Tez) From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Apr 17 06:21:46 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:21:46 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Thorny diagnostic issue for an Epson QX-10 Message-ID: <01OSL748VII0007HL5@beyondthepale.ie> > > Symptom: A QX-10 keeps shutting down, but at random and in an erratic way. > By erratic it will sometimes shutdown--Start---Shutdown--start---within a > 1/2 second of each sequence. > > It sounds like there is a short somewhere or at least some component > failing. But where? Its hard to diagnose because (1) It's intermittent > and (2) I don't want to run the machine when it's flip flopping on and off. > That's definitely not good for the components. > > I've determined that it's either the PSU or mainboard at fault. Both are > for sale on e-Bay. However, I don't whant to buy both when only one is the > problem. > > Any ideas how I might determine which? The PSU doesn't not fire at all if > there is no load on it. > I've never seen an Epson QX-10 - I don't even know what it is. Whatever it is, one way to approach it is to make a dummy load for the PSU which resembles the normal load on it as far as possible. If the PSU continues to malfunction when feeding only the dummy load, the problem is almost certain to be in the PSU itself. Dummy loads for low voltages can often be made from bulbs for use in cars, including dual filament bulbs which had to be replaced because one filament failed. Another useful thing to do is to look for bad connections in the PSU. If it is constructed on a printed circuit board, while feeding the dummy load, try examining the underside of the board in a darkened room while tapping the board with something insulated. You might see or hear tiny sparks indicating the location of a bad solder joint. Be aware that the PSU probably contains high voltages and that these may remain for a considerable period of time after power has been removed, particularly if the unit is faulty. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Apr 17 07:28:05 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:28:05 +0100 Subject: Internet Software Archive In-Reply-To: References: <201304161137.r3GBbB1o045686@mx1.ezwind.net> <201304161455.r3GEtf63072749@mx1.ezwind.net> <516D7A72.6030404@att.net> Message-ID: Hi Gene, Did I send you that copy of that font? My mind is like a sieve. I now send you a copy of my plea for help. (Programming help, I'm not running from the cops or anything...) Sorry for bugging folks 2x (i've already begged for help on FB), but I have a project I want to do in xscreensaver. So far, i can't even get a basic "hack" to work, because this isn't the kind of thing I do. It's for a good cause, a Dennis Nedry screensaver, like in Jurassic Park. The windows version my friend created for me kind of doesn't work right, and it requires xna, which is bad because it means it won't run on a system that doesn't have real directx support... and he's gone to ground and won't give me the .net source) I mainly use linux anyway. The windows version even talks... see below: http://retrobbs.cortex-media.info/nedry.jpg I've no experience writing graphical applications (since Apple // days anyway) and can get the stupid thing to compile, but I can't even get a very simple demo screensaver working. I'm sure you'll all agree this project is CRITICAL. Especially Euan.... I'll even say the magic word -- PLEASE! On 16 April 2013 17:40, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, steve shumaker wrote: > >> On 4/16/2013 8:10 AM, geneb wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, John Foust wrote: >>> >>>> At 09:42 AM 4/16/2013, geneb wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, John Foust wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Except "Well, our metadata is shit." I think he put that in there just >>>>>> to let the professional archivists blow their coffee out their noses. >>>>> >>>>> The hope is to be blunt about it in order to not only be up front about >>>>> the problem, but to hopefully get volunteers to provide/improve the >>>>> metadata. >>>> >>>> >>>> And is there a mechanism for that to happen? >>>> >>> I'm pretty sure it's straightforward to submit new metadata - however, >>> they're underingoing a commercial power upgrade at the moment and are >>> offline. When they're back up, I'd suggest creating an account and see what >>> they offer with regards to new submissions. >>> >>> g. >>> >>> >> Would not the Maslin archives be a valuable submission? > > > I suspect it's already there. If not, I can certainly correct the > oversight. I do know that the LoC has a copy of retroarchive.org - I just > don't know how fresh it is. > > g > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Gregor Samsa awoke one morning to discover that he had been transformed into a giant cockroach." Nah, it's too good. --Max Bialystock From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Apr 17 07:30:01 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:30:01 +0100 Subject: Whoops Message-ID: Sorry for the last post, it was supposed to go to Gene... but hey, if anyone here writes xscreensavers, the help would be appreciated. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Gregor Samsa awoke one morning to discover that he had been transformed into a giant cockroach." Nah, it's too good. --Max Bialystock From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 17 08:33:03 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:33:03 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> On 16-apr-2013 22:10, David Riley wrote: > Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if anyone was > interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish) > IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com > seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here: > > http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY > > I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what > to do. Time to read up... Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway. - MG From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 17 08:37:52 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, MG wrote: > On 16-apr-2013 22:10, David Riley wrote: >> Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if anyone was >> interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish) >> IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com >> seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here: >> >> http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY >> >> I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what >> to do. Time to read up... > > Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they > restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That > makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway. > *grabs popcorn bowl* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From sander.reiche at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 08:45:59 2013 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:45:59 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: ``Want a cold beer with that?'' and sits on the sofa next to geneb... On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 3:37 PM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, MG wrote: > > On 16-apr-2013 22:10, David Riley wrote: >> >>> Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if anyone was >>> interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish) >>> IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com >>> seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here: >>> >>> http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-**bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY >>> >>> I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what >>> to do. Time to read up... >>> >> >> Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they >> restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That >> makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway. >> >> *grabs popcorn bowl* > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/**coll - > Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 17 09:11:49 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:11:49 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516EADA5.7070901@xs4all.nl> On 17-apr-2013 15:45, Sander Reiche wrote: > ``Want a cold beer with that?'' and sits on the sofa next to geneb... Well, if it isn't a certain someone who is even too cheap to cover for shipping costs for a freebie item. Nice of you to stop by and to tag along. How many others have you fleeced since then? - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 17 09:14:27 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:14:27 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: > *grabs popcorn bowl* Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and much more, to just mention a few. I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely like an adult again. Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot. - MG From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 17 09:49:57 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 10:49:57 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516EB695.2070901@sbcglobal.net> On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote: > On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: >> *grabs popcorn bowl* > > Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have > things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and > much more, to just mention a few. > > I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely > like an adult again. > > Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your > cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot. > Gene, can I get some of that popcorn over here? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Apr 17 10:02:35 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:02:35 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EB695.2070901@sbcglobal.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516EB695.2070901@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 17 April 2013 15:49, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote: > Gene, can I get some of that popcorn over here? As long as it isn't sweet popcorn. That stuff's a tool of the devil. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Gregor Samsa awoke one morning to discover that he had been transformed into a giant cockroach." Nah, it's too good. --Max Bialystock From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 17 10:08:30 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 08:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EB695.2070901@sbcglobal.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516EB695.2070901@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote: >> On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: >>> *grabs popcorn bowl* >> >> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >> much more, to just mention a few. >> >> I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely >> like an adult again. >> >> Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your >> cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot. >> > > Gene, can I get some of that popcorn over here? There's plenty go go around! Just remember to throw a quarter in the cup if you hit the Kegerator. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 10:44:35 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:44:35 +0100 Subject: PC World: If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It: Ancient Computers in Use Today Message-ID: By Benj Edwards, PCWorldFeb 19, 2012 6:00 PM ?It?s easy to wax nostalgic about old technology--to remember fondly our first Apple IIe or marvel at the old mainframes that ran on punched cards. But no one in their right mind would use those outdated, underpowered dinosaurs to run a contemporary business, let alone a modern weapons system, right? Wrong!? http://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if_it_aint_broke_dont_fix_it_ancient_computers_in_use_today.html (I may have posted this before - it's a year old. If so, sorry.) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 17 10:53:07 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 11:53:07 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516EB695.2070901@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <516EC563.9090907@sbcglobal.net> On 04/17/2013 11:08 AM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote: >>> On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: >>>> *grabs popcorn bowl* >>> >>> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >>> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >>> much more, to just mention a few. >>> >>> I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely >>> like an adult again. >>> >>> Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your >>> cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot. >>> >> >> Gene, can I get some of that popcorn over here? > There's plenty go go around! > > Just remember to throw a quarter in the cup if you hit the Kegerator. > I may need to drop in a fiver, depending on how this day goes.... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 17 11:07:47 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 09:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EC563.9090907@sbcglobal.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516EB695.2070901@sbcglobal.net> <516EC563.9090907@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 04/17/2013 11:08 AM, geneb wrote: >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> >>> On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote: >>>> On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: >>>>> *grabs popcorn bowl* >>>> >>>> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >>>> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >>>> much more, to just mention a few. >>>> >>>> I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely >>>> like an adult again. >>>> >>>> Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your >>>> cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot. >>>> >>> >>> Gene, can I get some of that popcorn over here? >> There's plenty go go around! >> >> Just remember to throw a quarter in the cup if you hit the Kegerator. >> > > I may need to drop in a fiver, depending on how this day goes.... It should quiet down after his mom puts him down for his nap. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 11:29:09 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:29:09 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote: > > On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: >> *grabs popcorn bowl* > > Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have > things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and > much more, to just mention a few. MTS for one has them! I don't particularly understand it yet, but it has them! > > I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely > like an adult again. > > Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your > cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot. > > - MG -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 11:34:47 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:34:47 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 09:33 AM, MG wrote: >> Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if anyone was >> interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish) >> IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com >> seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here: >> >> http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY >> >> I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what >> to do. Time to read up... > > Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they > restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That > makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway. Idiot Boy rides again! Back for more, I see! Some people just never learn. I'm sorry to disappoint all you fine gents who settled down with popcorn and beer, but this kid isn't going to get my goat this time. Maybe he'll get bored and go away. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 11:35:55 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:35:55 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote: > On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: >> *grabs popcorn bowl* > > Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have > things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and > much more, to just mention a few. I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks Windows machines process financial transactions. ;) > I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely > like an adult again. > > Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your > cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot. It's awfully safe over there across the pond, isn't it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 11:37:49 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:37:49 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> Message-ID: <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 12:29 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> *grabs popcorn bowl* >> >> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >> much more, to just mention a few. > > MTS for one has them! I don't particularly understand it yet, but it > has them! They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend...so he assumes they aren't there. You'll find people like this love to hang around on mailing lists like this one, which are full of both knowledgeable and opinionated people. They throw little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 11:39:51 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:39:51 -0400 Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> <025e01ce3ac7$273d1320$75b73960$@com> Message-ID: <516ED057.7020502@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 02:22 AM, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: > >>> a reboot of the DNS server in this case. >>> >>> Actually, in this case, it was even easier to fix. My server for some >>> reason had been physically turned off! >>> Kinda hard to resolve the DNS when the machine is powered off... >>> >> It could have been as simple as some accidentally doing a "shutdown >> -h" instead of a "shutdown -r".... > > I've done that a few times to my home server when I was somewhere many > miles away from it. An old UNIX admins' joke...or an interview question: Q. "What's the difference between 'kill -1 1' and 'kill 1 1'?" A. "A trip to the office at 2AM." -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 11:59:42 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:59:42 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> On 04/17/2013 12:35 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote: >> On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: >>> *grabs popcorn bowl* >> >> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >> much more, to just mention a few. > > I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks Windows > machines process financial transactions. ;) Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile? I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;) > >> I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely >> like an adult again. >> >> Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your >> cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot. > > It's awfully safe over there across the pond, isn't it? > > -Dave > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 17 12:00:32 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 10:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/17/2013 09:33 AM, MG wrote: >>> Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if anyone was >>> interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish) >>> IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com >>> seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here: >>> >>> http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY >>> >>> I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what >>> to do. Time to read up... >> >> Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they >> restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That >> makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway. > > Idiot Boy rides again! Back for more, I see! Some people just never > learn. > > I'm sorry to disappoint all you fine gents who settled down with > popcorn and beer, but this kid isn't going to get my goat this time. > Maybe he'll get bored and go away. > I got five bucks on the goat. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 17 12:01:39 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 10:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote: >> On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: >>> *grabs popcorn bowl* >> >> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >> much more, to just mention a few. > > I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks Windows > machines process financial transactions. ;) > >> I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely >> like an adult again. >> >> Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your >> cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot. > > It's awfully safe over there across the pond, isn't it? > Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Wed Apr 17 12:02:28 2013 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 10:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Exidy Sorcerer available in Australia Message-ID: <1366218148.41066.YahooMailRC@web181603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Was contacted by the person below looking for someone in Australia interested in an Exidy Sorcerer. Passing along here. Contact the person below. I would be interested in possible copies of any doc or such which I don't have for my Sorcerer if someone picks this up. David Williams www.trailingedge.com ----------------- I am in Australia. Do you have a contact here that would like to have it for collection or museum? it WAS a 48K memory version but in later years of use the memory dropped to 32K - presumably a meory fault or dry joint somewhere. Unfortunately, I cannot tell if it is still working, because I have lost the connector cable for the video to the modified TV which Dick Smith electronics sold with it. I also have about half a file drawer of documentation related to it and related matters. Cheers... Keith Dyson ph 08 9457 8913 (inside Australia) or email keithdy at iinet.net.au (preferred)----------------- From shumaker at att.net Wed Apr 17 12:10:17 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 10:10:17 -0700 Subject: Internet Software Archive In-Reply-To: References: <201304161137.r3GBbB1o045686@mx1.ezwind.net> <201304161455.r3GEtf63072749@mx1.ezwind.net> <516D7A72.6030404@att.net> Message-ID: <516ED779.1090002@att.net> On 4/16/2013 9:40 AM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, steve shumaker wrote: > >> On 4/16/2013 8:10 AM, geneb wrote: >>> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, John Foust wrote: >>> >>>> At 09:42 AM 4/16/2013, geneb wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, John Foust wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Except "Well, our metadata is shit." I think he put that in there >>>>>> just >>>>>> to let the professional archivists blow their coffee out their >>>>>> noses. >>>>> The hope is to be blunt about it in order to not only be up front >>>>> about the problem, but to hopefully get volunteers to >>>>> provide/improve the metadata. >>>> >>>> And is there a mechanism for that to happen? >>>> >>> I'm pretty sure it's straightforward to submit new metadata - >>> however, they're underingoing a commercial power upgrade at the >>> moment and are offline. When they're back up, I'd suggest creating >>> an account and see what they offer with regards to new submissions. >>> >>> g. >>> >>> >> Would not the Maslin archives be a valuable submission? > > I suspect it's already there. If not, I can certainly correct the > oversight. I do know that the LoC has a copy of retroarchive.org - I > just don't know how fresh it is. > > g > didn't see it in a quick search. s2 From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 12:13:59 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:13:59 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516ED857.1090906@gewt.net> On 04/17/2013 12:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/17/2013 12:29 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>> *grabs popcorn bowl* >>> >>> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >>> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >>> much more, to just mention a few. >> >> MTS for one has them! I don't particularly understand it yet, but it >> has them! > > They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend...so > he assumes they aren't there. Ah! Yeah, old mainframes didn't have a GUI where you could check a box for who could access a file. ;) MTS has user permissions that you can specify when using the function to modify the user database. (If you're curious why I keep mentioning MTS...connect a tn3270 to dev.gimme-sympathy.org port 3270.) > > You'll find people like this love to hang around on mailing lists like > this one, which are full of both knowledgeable and opinionated people. > They throw little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually > because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet. Ah. That explains it. > > -Dave > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 12:14:37 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:14:37 -0000 Subject: computing the old way References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> <025e01ce3ac7$273d1320$75b73960$@com> <516ED057.7020502@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516ED87D.4060001@gewt.net> On 04/17/2013 12:39 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/17/2013 02:22 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: >> >>>> a reboot of the DNS server in this case. >>>> >>>> Actually, in this case, it was even easier to fix. My server for some >>>> reason had been physically turned off! >>>> Kinda hard to resolve the DNS when the machine is powered off... >>>> >>> It could have been as simple as some accidentally doing a "shutdown >>> -h" instead of a "shutdown -r".... >> >> I've done that a few times to my home server when I was somewhere many >> miles away from it. > > An old UNIX admins' joke...or an interview question: > > Q. "What's the difference between 'kill -1 1' and 'kill 1 1'?" > A. "A trip to the office at 2AM." Sounds about right. ;) > > -Dave > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 12:18:22 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:18:22 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> Message-ID: <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 12:59 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: >>>> *grabs popcorn bowl* >>> >>> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >>> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >>> much more, to just mention a few. >> >> I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks Windows >> machines process financial transactions. ;) > > Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile? Did they? They may have but I'm talking about BANKS. > I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd > prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;) So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 17 12:24:28 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:24:28 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516EB695.2070901@sbcglobal.net> <516EC563.9090907@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <516EDACC.5050402@sbcglobal.net> On 04/17/2013 12:07 PM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> On 04/17/2013 11:08 AM, geneb wrote: >>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>> >>>> On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote: >>>>> On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: >>>>>> *grabs popcorn bowl* >>>>> >>>>> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >>>>> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >>>>> much more, to just mention a few. >>>>> >>>>> I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely >>>>> like an adult again. >>>>> >>>>> Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your >>>>> cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Gene, can I get some of that popcorn over here? >>> There's plenty go go around! >>> >>> Just remember to throw a quarter in the cup if you hit the Kegerator. >>> >> >> I may need to drop in a fiver, depending on how this day goes.... > > It should quiet down after his mom puts him down for his nap. > Yeah, but there's still the meat-space "issues" I got here... ;) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 17 12:25:07 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:25:07 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516EDAF3.9070507@sbcglobal.net> On 04/17/2013 12:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/17/2013 09:33 AM, MG wrote: >>> Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if anyone was >>> interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish) >>> IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com >>> seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here: >>> >>> http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY >>> >>> I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what >>> to do. Time to read up... >> >> Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they >> restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That >> makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway. > > Idiot Boy rides again! Back for more, I see! Some people just never > learn. > > I'm sorry to disappoint all you fine gents who settled down with > popcorn and beer, but this kid isn't going to get my goat this time. > Maybe he'll get bored and go away. > Aww, bummer... But yeha, so far I've keep my mouth shut. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Apr 17 12:28:16 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:28:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...] who thinks Windows machines process financial transactions. ;) They do. My bank uses Windows for its customer-facing agents' desktops. (It'd be a reason to switch, except I don't expect to find anyone saner in that respect.) No, that's not the backend, not the bulk processor, but that Windows machine is indeed handling that agent's transactions in at least some senses. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bobvines00 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 12:28:28 2013 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:28:28 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:11:36 -0400 > From: John Wilson > Subject: Re: got my dot-matrix printer [snip] > Last time I looked there was at least one vendor online still selling > brand-new bulk ribbon (for you to wind yourself onto the old spools) so > there's still a fallback for TTYs or LA30s/LA36s/LA120s/etc. when the > ribbons finally get too tattered to re-ink. > > John Wilson > D Bit Do you recall the vendor's name? I've got several old printers (and an ASR-33) that need ribbons. Thanks, Bob From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Apr 17 12:36:56 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:36:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: <516ED057.7020502@neurotica.com> References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> <025e01ce3ac7$273d1320$75b73960$@com> <516ED057.7020502@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > An old UNIX admins' joke...or an interview question: > > Q. "What's the difference between 'kill -1 1' and 'kill 1 1'?" > A. "A trip to the office at 2AM." Okay, hands up all those who have ever done 'rm -r' as root from / Confession: ONCE, on a SunOS system I was loading for a customer. http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/pricelist.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 12:37:20 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:37:20 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:01 PM, geneb wrote: > > Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks! This too shall pass. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 13:18:24 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:18:24 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <10FD91DB-768F-4C72-94CF-1D1D646D1DAA@gmail.com> On Apr 17, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd >> prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;) > > So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of > millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;) Perhaps he meant DOS/360 or its descendants? - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 13:24:46 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:24:46 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ED857.1090906@gewt.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516ED857.1090906@gewt.net> Message-ID: <516EE8EE.7000602@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 01:13 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>>> *grabs popcorn bowl* >>>> >>>> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >>>> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >>>> much more, to just mention a few. >>> >>> MTS for one has them! I don't particularly understand it yet, but it >>> has them! >> >> They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend...so >> he assumes they aren't there. > > Ah! Yeah, old mainframes didn't have a GUI where you could check a box > for who could access a file. ;) They sorta did, actually. (and still do) > MTS has user permissions that you can specify when using the function to > modify the user database. > > (If you're curious why I keep mentioning MTS...connect a tn3270 to > dev.gimme-sympathy.org port 3270.) I smell a time sink! I'm not gonna do it! (right now) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 13:41:35 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:41:35 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <516EECDF.8050401@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 01:28 PM, Mouse wrote: >> [...] who thinks Windows machines process financial transactions. ;) > > They do. My bank uses Windows for its customer-facing agents' > desktops. (It'd be a reason to switch, except I don't expect to find > anyone saner in that respect.) > > No, that's not the backend, not the bulk processor, but that Windows > machine is indeed handling that agent's transactions in at least some > senses. Yes, most do use Windows machines as terminals. That's not what we were discussing, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Apr 17 13:48:03 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 11:48:03 -0700 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Apr 17, 2013, at 10:28 AM, Mouse wrote: >> [...] who thinks Windows machines process financial transactions. ;) > > They do. My bank uses Windows for its customer-facing agents' > desktops. (It'd be a reason to switch, except I don't expect to find > anyone saner in that respect.) > > No, that's not the backend, not the bulk processor, but that Windows > machine is indeed handling that agent's transactions in at least some > senses. Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. They (at most) might validate some of the inputs (a bit more than a 3270 might do) but that's about it. They are more than likely on a network but not the public Internet. TTFN - Guy From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 13:52:16 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:52:16 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516EEF60.4040501@gewt.net> On 04/17/2013 01:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/17/2013 12:59 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>> On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: >>>>> *grabs popcorn bowl* >>>> >>>> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >>>> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >>>> much more, to just mention a few. >>> >>> I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks Windows >>> machines process financial transactions. ;) >> >> Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile? > > Did they? They may have but I'm talking about BANKS. They may have only used it for the web frontend, I don't remember. True! No way in hell would a bank use windows. ;) > >> I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd >> prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;) > > So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of > millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;) Good point. I was thinking more small-scale. > > -Dave > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 17 13:51:09 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:51:09 -0500 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201304171853.r3HIrAkn044514@mx1.ezwind.net> At 12:28 PM 4/17/2013, Mouse wrote: >No, that's not the backend, not the bulk processor, but that Windows >machine is indeed handling that agent's transactions in at least some >senses. In the same sense that in days of yore, the glass TTY "handles the transactions"? At a bank I'm familiar with, transactions are still batched and sent off to some large probably IBM-based mainframe seventy miles away, and some of the tellers were sad when 3270 mode went away within the last year. - John From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 13:56:38 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:56:38 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516EF066.3040103@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks! > > This too shall pass. Sounds painful. Peace... Sridhar From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 17 13:58:02 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 11:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:01 PM, geneb wrote: >> >> Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks! > > This too shall pass. You just could NOT resist that, could you? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spedraja at ono.com Wed Apr 17 14:03:53 2013 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:03:53 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: I got one account yesterday. Must read the system policies. I'll do a try with REXX, ISPF, COBOL and DB2 when have a moment. SPc. 2013/4/17 Mouse > > [...] who thinks Windows machines process financial transactions. ;) > > They do. My bank uses Windows for its customer-facing agents' > desktops. (It'd be a reason to switch, except I don't expect to find > anyone saner in that respect.) > > No, that's not the backend, not the bulk processor, but that Windows > machine is indeed handling that agent's transactions in at least some > senses. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 14:04:59 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130417115334.C52566@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of > millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;) So long as each transaction can be handled in a few hundred clock cycles (including all overhead), then a 5150 would be marginally adequate. (~41,212,800,000 clock cycles per day) That does not leave enough overhead to support Windoze with dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish. Are the bugs out of the corn popper? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 14:05:50 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:05:50 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> <10FD91DB-768F-4C72-94CF-1D1D646D1DAA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516EF28E.5090606@gewt.net> On 04/17/2013 02:18 PM, David Riley wrote: > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd >>> prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;) >> >> So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of >> millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;) > > Perhaps he meant DOS/360 or its descendants? I was referring to MS-DOS, but DOS/360 WOULD have handled transactions at one point. ;) > > > - Dave > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 17 14:11:12 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:11:12 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <021501ce3b9f$54e3b0d0$feab1270$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 17 April 2013 18:18 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Public mainframe system > > On 04/17/2013 12:59 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > >>> On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: > >>>> *grabs popcorn bowl* > >>> > >>> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have > >>> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and > >>> much more, to just mention a few. > >> > >> I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks > >> Windows machines process financial transactions. ;) > > > > Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile? > > Did they? They may have but I'm talking about BANKS. http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/Microsoft-Services/Nationwide-Building- Society/Delivery-Partner-Helps-Nationwide-Deploy-High-Performing-Faster-Paym ents-Service/4000008133 > > > I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd > > prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;) > > So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of > millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 14:17:25 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Using PCs instead of mainframes (Was: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130417120751.C52566@shell.lmi.net> > > [...] who thinks Windows machines process financial transactions. ;) On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Mouse wrote: > They do. My bank uses Windows for its customer-facing agents' > desktops. (It'd be a reason to switch, except I don't expect to find > anyone saner in that respect.) > No, that's not the backend, not the bulk processor, but that Windows > machine is indeed handling that agent's transactions in at least some > senses. Kaiser uses PCs in every exam room (either Dell or HP), running Windoze. But, one of the main windows that is open is a CICS session! Unfortunately their systems staff has little enough medical knowledge that their Undesirable Medication Side Effects report is MISlabelled "ALLERGIES"! If you think that that is unimportant, it meant that their ER staff, in an emergency, were scared to administer an appropriate med because I once discontinued taking it because it made me drowsy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 14:17:29 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:17:29 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <10FD91DB-768F-4C72-94CF-1D1D646D1DAA@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> <10FD91DB-768F-4C72-94CF-1D1D646D1DAA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516EF549.7040902@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 02:18 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 17, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd >>> prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;) >> >> So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of >> millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;) > > Perhaps he meant DOS/360 or its descendants? Possibly, but even MS-DOS is older than Cory, so that was my assumption. ;) Right Cory? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 14:23:07 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:23:07 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516ED857.1090906@gewt.net> <516EE8EE.7000602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516EF69B.6000909@gewt.net> On 04/17/2013 02:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/17/2013 01:13 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>>>> *grabs popcorn bowl* >>>>> >>>>> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >>>>> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >>>>> much more, to just mention a few. >>>> >>>> MTS for one has them! I don't particularly understand it yet, but it >>>> has them! >>> >>> They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend...so >>> he assumes they aren't there. >> >> Ah! Yeah, old mainframes didn't have a GUI where you could check a box >> for who could access a file. ;) > > They sorta did, actually. (and still do) You know what I mean. ;) > >> MTS has user permissions that you can specify when using the function to >> modify the user database. >> >> (If you're curious why I keep mentioning MTS...connect a tn3270 to >> dev.gimme-sympathy.org port 3270.) > > I smell a time sink! I'm not gonna do it! (right now) ;) It'll still be up when you get around to it. It runs on a system that's always on. > > -Dave > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 14:36:18 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> <025e01ce3ac7$273d1320$75b73960$@com> <516ED057.7020502@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130417121755.I52566@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Mike Loewen wrote: > Okay, hands up all those who have ever done 'rm -r' as root from / Once, in the mid 1980s, one of my father's buddies decided that he no longer wanted a freeware program. So, his neighbor, "who knows all about computers", CD'ed to that subDIRectory and did DEL *.* But, then when he did a DIR, it still showed . and .. ! So, to finish erasing that subDIRectory, he did DEL . and DEL .. I had a DOS 5.25" floppy handy, but not the right version. The neighbor "who knows all about computers" was giving me CONSTANT [bad] advice and suggestions about "the damage that was done by the virus" while I booted from my floppy. But, as soon as I went into DEBUG, he found reasons to have to be elsewhere. Whew! THAT got rid of the virus! Changing the E5h to 43h was enough to get COMMAND.COM working enough to reboot from the hard disk, and then the rest was even more trivial. Somehow, patching a crashed XP doesn't seem so simple. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 14:38:05 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 12:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 14:44:06 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:44:06 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ED857.1090906@gewt.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516ED857.1090906@gewt.net> Message-ID: <516EFB86.8070803@gmail.com> On 17/04/2013 18:13, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > On 04/17/2013 12:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> On 04/17/2013 12:29 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>>> *grabs popcorn bowl* >>>> >>>> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >>>> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >>>> much more, to just mention a few. >>> >>> MTS for one has them! I don't particularly understand it yet, but it >>> has them! >> >> They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend...so >> he assumes they aren't there. > > Ah! Yeah, old mainframes didn't have a GUI where you could check a box > for who could access a file. ;) > So did old UNIX boxes in the days before X-Windows...... > MTS has user permissions that you can specify when using the function > to modify the user database. > > (If you're curious why I keep mentioning MTS...connect a tn3270 to > dev.gimme-sympathy.org port 3270.) > >> >> You'll find people like this love to hang around on mailing lists >> like >> this one, which are full of both knowledgeable and opinionated people. >> They throw little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually >> because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet. > > Ah. That explains it. > >> >> -Dave >> > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 17 14:44:57 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:44:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <69D3071E-8137-48BF-9570-90D5AF5E4C7A@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > >> Those are good printers. Those and epsons were good consumer grade >> printers. Citizen on the other hand... Ugh! > > I miss the Star NX-1000 I had. Nice printer. No clue what happened to > it. Probably lost it in the move along with my much-missed Royal > AlphaTronic system) Ah, but the NX-1000 are only 9-pin and very /slow/. I still own two, one of the plain NX-1000s and one of the color versions (NS-1000 Plus?) For standard black only use, I found I tended to prefer the Panasonic KX-P1123/1124 (24-pin) which was both fast and fairly quiet. The KX-P1180 (9-pin) was also a workhorse but much louder and slower. The 1123/1124/1080 all support a serial option, which to me was very useful, but the add-on board would probably be very difficult to find today. I do have one of the color KX-P2123 printers, but have never used it much. Epson's LQ-570/570 Plus/870 series is also fairly decent, although I did manage to wear out the carriage motor in a LQ-570 once (the sleeve bearings in the stepper motor completely wore out). I'd have replaced the bearings in the motor instead of paying ~$60+ for the whole motor except someone who thought they knew better than me took a punch to the motor's housing and destroyed it while trying to "tighten up" the bearings. Sigh. Still, nothing beats an older model Oikdata. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 17 14:46:37 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:46:37 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516EFC1D.4020609@xs4all.nl> On 17-apr-2013 18:37, Dave McGuire wrote: > They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend... > so he assumes they aren't there. What did I assume? I was openly wondering why they haven't implemented restrictions on that FanDeZhi system, then I got the usual IBM partisan mob after me (like before) here. Did you ever try to log on there? > You'll find people like this love to hang around on mailing lists > like this one, which are full of both knowledgeable and opinionated > people. To which category do you belong? > They throw little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually > because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet. Didn't you threaten me with violence a while back? Not the wisest thing you can do. It's not the 1980s Usenet, it's not an electronic El Dorado. - MG From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Apr 17 14:47:47 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201304171947.PAA01571@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [...] who thinks Windows machines process financial transactions. ;) >> They do. My bank uses Windows for its customer-facing agents' >> desktops. [...] No, that's not the backend, not the bulk >> processor, [...] > Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. Well...sort of. They do more processing than most of what are usually called terminals. But, to me, accepting user input and massaging it into the format called for by the backend is "process[ing]". Is it being used as a technical term with more restricted meaning here? Also consider the number of Web stores hosted on IIS.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 17 14:48:25 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:48:25 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ED857.1090906@gewt.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516ED857.1090906@gewt.net> Message-ID: <516EFC89.6070606@xs4all.nl> On 17-apr-2013 19:13, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Ah! Yeah, old mainframes didn't have a GUI where you could check a box > for who could access a file. ;) Neither do many UNIX derivatives and quasi-UNIX (like Linux), nor VMS and many others, when using just the CLI. In fact, those IBM "i" and "z" menu structures remind me more of the mindless world of Windows than the aforementioned operating systems, to be /completely honest/ with you. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 17 14:49:31 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:49:31 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516EFCCB.3010504@xs4all.nl> On 17-apr-2013 18:35, Dave McGuire wrote: > It's awfully safe over there across the pond, isn't it? Is this supposed to be yet another threat? - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 17 14:50:41 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:50:41 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> Message-ID: <516EFD11.5070607@xs4all.nl> On 17-apr-2013 18:59, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile? > > I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd > prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;) Be careful, the IBM zealots/fundamentalists might lynch you for that remark. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 17 14:53:17 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:53:17 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> On 17-apr-2013 19:00, geneb wrote: > I got five bucks on the goat. Why aren't you actually in the Air Force, instead of playing around in a cockpit at home? - MG From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 17 14:55:47 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:55:47 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EF066.3040103@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516EF066.3040103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516EFE43.1060705@sbcglobal.net> On 04/17/2013 02:56 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>> Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks! >> >> This too shall pass. > > Sounds painful. > > Peace... Sridhar > Shouldn't be too bad. It's only paper. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 17 14:58:13 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:58:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: <516DA1F5.7020700@gewt.net> References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> <516D8C57.9030103@neurotica.com> <516DA1F5.7020700@gewt.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On 04/16/2013 01:58 PM, David Riley wrote: > >> Well, unless your DNS server has crashed for some perfectly valid >> reason. Say, maybe, the janitor bumped into the server rack and >> accidentally ejected a hot-swap drive and caused a kernel panic. I've >> heard of that happening (to companies who subsequently either got rack >> doors or stopped letting the janitors clean the server room). > > I was assuming it was a non-trivial fault. I'm used to DNS servers not > failing I guess. ;) > > My home DNS server crashed when my CD-ROM drive failed once...kept > running until I tried to update the zonefile. > > HOW DOES A CD-ROM DRIVE SPONTANEOUSLY FAIL?! Out of the different cdrom drives I've disassembled... dust and dirt, faulty solder joints, bad electrolytics, failed laser diodes, and poor quality leaf switches. The leaf switch issue was particularly fun as I had a school with dozens and dozens of Goldstar branded cdrom drives that would spontaneously and randomly eject their trays. It turned out the plating on the switches was crap and when the switch wouldn't reliably register that the tray was closed, the drive would eject the tray. Had they either plated the contacts properly or had better switch debounce logic the drives probably would have been fine. In the end, we replaced them all and I kept a half dozen around to tinker with. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 14:58:46 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:58:46 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EF066.3040103@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516EF066.3040103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516EFEF6.1070400@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 02:56 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>> Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks! >> >> This too shall pass. > > Sounds painful. *PLOP* -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Apr 17 14:59:06 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:59:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <201304171853.r3HIrAkn044514@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201304171853.r3HIrAkn044514@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201304171959.PAA01630@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> No, that's not the backend, not the bulk processor, but that Windows >> machine is indeed handling that agent's transactions in at least >> some senses. > In the same sense that in days of yore, the glass TTY "handles the > transactions"? No, more in the sense that the machine the glass tty was connected to did, before sending them off to the batch backend. Or, more precisely, yes, but also in the sense that [etc]. Or at least that's my guess. I haven't seen the code, but it looks to me as though the end-agent desktop is probably doing format conversion (eg, digit strings to binary numbers) at the very least, quite possibly some verification and backend selection, possibly even more...all of which counts as "process[ing]" to me, though, as I implied just upthread, I'm beginning to suspect the term is being used as a technical term with more restricted meaning here. > At a bank I'm familiar with, transactions are still batched and sent > off to some large probably IBM-based mainframe seventy miles away, Oh, I daresay that happens too. But just because transactions get processed in one way by machine A doesn't mean they don't also get processed (possibly in a similar way, possibly different) by machine B. At least not for the meanings of "process" I'm familiar with. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 17 15:11:54 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:11:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <20130416104047.B33578@shell.lmi.net> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <20130416104047.B33578@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> After a lot of digging, I discovered that shoe repair shops use a >> special brand of contact cement known as "Barge" cement. The stuff >> stinks like heck and soaks into rubber, so a 6 ounce tube barely >> suffices for a pair of soles. But the bond is unassailable by moisture >> or wear. > > Barge changed their formula ("can't use xxx in the formula anymore"). > The current stuff is crap compared to what it once was. A friend has > been watching eBay for NOS of the old formula, without success. One ad > had the new formula, but the picture was the packaging of the old > formula. The original formula is still available (yellow label), just only in large quart or gallon size containers (like their thinner). The smaller metal tubes (blue label) are only available with the newer formula. IIRC, they changed the formula so they could take out the Toluene. From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 15:26:08 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:26:08 -0700 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516F0560.8080006@gmail.com> On 4/16/2013 1:10 PM, David Riley wrote: > Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if anyone was > interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish) > IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com > seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here: > > http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY > > I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what > to do. Time to read up... > > > - Dave > I just looked through their rules and they are pretty hard core. They are pretty clear nobody should use the system to learn zos and should have training before you use the system. Looks like the ban people without mercy and very quickly too. Doesn't look like the place to casually go and check out zos. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 15:35:41 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 16:35:41 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <021501ce3b9f$54e3b0d0$feab1270$@ntlworld.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> <021501ce3b9f$54e3b0d0$feab1270$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <516F079D.3010009@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 03:11 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>>>>> *grabs popcorn bowl* >>>>> >>>>> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >>>>> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >>>>> much more, to just mention a few. >>>> >>>> I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks >>>> Windows machines process financial transactions. ;) >>> >>> Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile? >> >> Did they? They may have but I'm talking about BANKS. > > http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/Microsoft-Services/Nationwide-Building- > Society/Delivery-Partner-Helps-Nationwide-Deploy-High-Performing-Faster-Paym > ents-Service/4000008133 I haven't laughed that hard in a LONG time! The last time I laughed that hard was when I read about "Microsoft HPC". :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Apr 17 15:39:22 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:39:22 +0200 Subject: New hardware project... In-Reply-To: <516DC5A6.1060307@neurotica.com> References: <516DC5A6.1060307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130417223922.1f97079c71282abc7ce8e505@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:41:58 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > Quite a few Sun framebuffers have ECL outputs, but they're all very old > ones (older than the 3/140) and all monochrome. I have some SBus bwtwo with ECL output. They where used in the first SPARCstation 1s. Regarding the cable length problem: Smells a lot like a termination problem. There are special differential ECL transmitter and receiver ICs with build in active termination for this purpose. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 15:49:45 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:49:45 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> <10FD91DB-768F-4C72-94CF-1D1D646D1DAA@gmail.com> <516EF549.7040902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516F0AE9.7000905@gewt.net> On 04/17/2013 03:17 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/17/2013 02:18 PM, David Riley wrote: >> On Apr 17, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>>> I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd >>>> prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;) >>> >>> So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of >>> millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;) >> >> Perhaps he meant DOS/360 or its descendants? > > Possibly, but even MS-DOS is older than Cory, so that was my > assumption. ;) Right Cory? ;) Yup. ;) > > -Dave > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 17 15:05:34 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:05:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <20130416134445.J33578@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 16, 13 01:45:12 pm Message-ID: > > > > > And for landline phoens, I've got plenty of 700 series (1060's, 1970's) > > > > that work fine and a 332 (1940's) in need of a bit of restoration. But > > > > that I can do. > > > Those will pretty much last forever. > > other than some annoying carbon granule clumping. You can always fit a Transmitter 21A (at least to UK 700 series telephones). That's an electret microphone and amplifier IC (Plessey ZN470 IIRC) that fits in place of the carbon microphone. It's possible to put one in a 300 seires oto (there was an article in the lasted THG journal on how to do it), but it involves some modifications, like cutting a slot in the housing for hte Transmitter 21A. But quite often a couple of sharp taps on the mouthpiece end of the handset will cure it. The balanced armature receiver inserts used in the 800 series handsets 9adn the tone ringer of the TRIMphone) do fail. Most of the time it's just he soldered joint that conencts the armature to the pin on the diaphragm that fails. The problem is that the hosuigns of said inserts have spun-over flanges to hodl them together. You cna machine them off to take them apaart, but you have to be careful wit hthe insert thereafter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 17 15:07:41 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:07:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <3D4107DC-0115-4FFC-9E44-61FA0559DC0B@gewt.net> from "Cory Smelosky" at Apr 16, 13 09:01:22 pm Message-ID: > > > > Actually, given a good isolation amplifier (I wouldn't attempt it > > withot), I suspect you could get sueful signals from electrodes o ntej > > outside of a cat and dispaly them o na 'scope. But I would want to try it > > on myself first, I am less valuable than a cat? > > But what would the electrodes measure? ;) Capacitance of the cat? > Bioelectric fields or something? I would assume that as with people you could monitor heart operation, detect brain activity ,adn so on. I am _NOT_ goign to try it though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 17 14:42:29 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:42:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: H780 power supply In-Reply-To: <01OSJU8YEQ90006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Apr 16, 13 12:46:05 pm Message-ID: > > > > >I didn't realize until your reply that my phone auto-corrected > >"too low" to "two low". How embarrassing. > > > > It's done it again. It changed "auto-goofed" to "auto-corrected". I do hate machines that think they know better than I do what I actually want. It's fine to warn me that a word was not found in the dictionary, but not to change it. After all, a lot of what I type involves signal names, variable names, assembly language mnemonics, etc. Those are unlikely to be found in a (smartphone) dictionary, and changing them will make nonsnse of the text. As an aside, One 'famous' autocorrect (which may not actually have happeend) was that 'Dear Sir or Madam' (standard opening for a letter) became 'Dear Sir or Madman' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 17 15:10:09 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:10:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing In-Reply-To: <516DBF6E.3070605@gmail.com> from "Dave" at Apr 16, 13 10:15:26 pm Message-ID: > I would have said instant coffee. Who know what he has had in the > Teapot :-) An old trick if you have a 'rubber' drive blet htat is slipping is to boilt it up in water for a few minutes. If you do that in the kettle that you use to make tea/coffee, then said drinks tast odd for a couple of weeks afterwards. Probablyu best to bring a small dewar flaks contianing the hot drink of chice... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 17 15:12:04 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:12:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: New hardware project... In-Reply-To: from "Hutch" at Apr 16, 13 05:20:16 pm Message-ID: > > I used the same cable that was originally connected to the original CRT > monitor. The cable was at least 6 foot long, straight through DB9 on both > ends. I was getting blurring and ghosting on the VGA monitor using this That is a classic sign of reflections o nthe cable caused by incorrect or missing termination. My guess is that the adpater input is untermianted and that adding termination resistors would have improved things. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 17 14:53:27 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:53:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <69D3071E-8137-48BF-9570-90D5AF5E4C7A@gmail.com> from "Geoff Oltmans" at Apr 16, 13 02:17:01 pm Message-ID: > > Those are good printers. Those and epsons were good consumer grade > printers. Citizen on the other hand... Ugh! I'll stick to my pair of Sanders printers. The 12/7 is built liek a tank. All metal, even the casing. I think the only plastic bits other than electricla insuators (conencotr/switch housings, etc) are the PTFE slidew bearings for the carriage. Teh 700 is perhaps not _quite_ so solid. It's a Daiblo 630 chassis fitted with a dot matrix head. And the cover is plastic. But it's still a lot better than soem I could name. Pity there's no way yto print graphics on them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 17 15:37:14 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:37:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Thorny diagnostic issue for an Epson QX-10 In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Apr 17, 13 09:46:33 pm Message-ID: > > Symptom: A QX-10 keeps shutting down, but at random and in an erratic way. > By erratic it will sometimes shutdown--Start---Shutdown--start---within a > 1/2 second of each sequence. > > It sounds like there is a short somewhere or at least some component > failing. But where? Its hard to diagnose because (1) It's intermittent > and (2) I don't want to run the machine when it's flip flopping on and off. > That's definitely not good for the components. Wehn it does the on-off cycle, what is the power-on lED doing? IIRC that's conenctesd to the +5V line. If that's blinking o nand off too, it's most likey to eb a PSU issue. It could be the mainboard drawing to omuch current, but I think that's a lot less likely. > > I've determined that it's either the PSU or mainboard at fault. Both are > for sale on e-Bay. However, I don't whant to buy both when only one is the > problem. Schematics are avaialble of all the bits of the QX10, including the PSU. It should be possible to fix it. > Any ideas how I might determine which? The PSU doesn't not fire at all if > there is no load on it. Have you tried giving it a dummy load? At least a 6V bulb (about 6W to 12W) betwe nthe 5V output pin and the ground (0V) pin with the PSU disconencted from the rest of the machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 17 15:42:38 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:42:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Thorny diagnostic issue for an Epson QX-10 In-Reply-To: <01OSL748VII0007HL5@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Apr 17, 13 12:21:46 pm Message-ID: > > I've never seen an Epson QX-10 - I don't even know what it is. It's one o fthe ncer CP/M machines. I has a reasonable resolution monchorme grpahics bord based on a 7220 + either 32K or 128K of RAM. Thew main RAM can be up to 256K (bank-switched, of course). And it has hoes lovelly Epson bvoice coil floppy drives. [...] > Another useful thing to do is to look for bad connections in the PSU. If it is > constructed on a printed circuit board, while feeding the dummy load, try > examining the underside of the board in a darkened room while tapping the board > with something insulated. You might see or hear tiny sparks indicating the > location of a bad solder joint. > > Be aware that the PSU probably contains high voltages and that these may > remain for a considerable period of time after power has been removed, > particularly if the unit is faulty. It does. The PSU is a single PCB standing verticvlaly at the right side fo the main unit. It is a nomrmal-ish switcher, the technical manual goes into the htory of operatio nf it. There is about 40V DC got by rectifying the mains on the board. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 17 16:19:02 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. > > I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" > I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 17:05:06 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:05:06 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EFC1D.4020609@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516EFC1D.4020609@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <2B47B089-DC0A-4FB3-A46A-001EFA894F4D@neurotica.com> On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:46 PM, MG wrote: > On 17-apr-2013 18:37, Dave McGuire wrote: >> They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend... >> so he assumes they aren't there. > > What did I assume? I was openly wondering why they haven't implemented > restrictions on that FanDeZhi system, then I got the usual IBM partisan > mob after me (like before) here. Nope. You just got your wittle peepee whacked by people who have actually done this before. > Did you ever try to log on there? Nope. I have my own. >> You'll find people like this love to hang around on mailing lists >> like this one, which are full of both knowledgeable and opinionated >> people. > > To which category do you belong? That is a matter of opinion! I know to which group YOU belong, though, and that's all that really matters. >> They throw little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually >> because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet. > > Didn't you threaten me with violence a while back? Not the wisest > thing you can do. It's not the 1980s Usenet, it's not an electronic > El Dorado. Ha!! Kiss my ass. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 17:09:13 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:09:13 -0500 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks Windows > machines process financial transactions. ;) > Not quite sure what you meant but a lot of ATMs went to WindowsCE or variants after OS/2 support was dropped by IBM. Yes eComStation tried and probably has some market share but still, surprising to many I'd consider that to be banking via a Windows machine for argument sake. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 17:14:56 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:14:56 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EFCCB.3010504@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516EFCCB.3010504@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516F1EE0.30308@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 03:49 PM, MG wrote: >> It's awfully safe over there across the pond, isn't it? > > Is this supposed to be yet another threat? Yes! I'm going to fly over there JUST to kick your prepubescent ass, because I have nothing better to do. Better call Interpol! Moron. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 17:16:06 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:16:06 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EFC89.6070606@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516ED857.1090906@gewt.net> <516EFC89.6070606@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516F1F26.8020204@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 03:48 PM, MG wrote: >> Ah! Yeah, old mainframes didn't have a GUI where you could check a box >> for who could access a file. ;) > > Neither do many UNIX derivatives and quasi-UNIX (like Linux), nor VMS > and many others, when using just the CLI. > > In fact, those IBM "i" and "z" menu structures remind me more of the > mindless world of Windows than the aforementioned operating systems, > to be /completely honest/ with you. Oh yeah, he's not a troll AT ALL. ;) Aaaa-HAHAHAA!! :-) :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 17:18:25 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:18:25 -0500 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:33 AM, MG wrote: > On 16-apr-2013 22:10, David Riley wrote: > >> I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what >> to do. Time to read up... >> > > Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they > restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That > makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway. > > - MG > I think this was an honest question of yours not bait although I did find the popcorn comments funny. I didn't see much explanation for you if you were really seeking which would have been nice. I've only done minor admin/system administration on a mainframe and I was using tools/commands that were written by the other security admin and some minor commands in "Top Secret" (tss) so my experience probably doesn't add up to much. But yes, you can pretty much secure any user down to the command or subsystem they're allowed to access. It's quite granular and well put together if you understand the logic of the mainframe environment. https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/CMS-Information-Technology/InformationSecurity/downloads/WP12-TopSecret.pdfis a guide but grab some Jolt or something before trying to sit down and actually read through it. These guides are a discipline of their own to sit through lol. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 17:20:51 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:20:51 -0500 Subject: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed In-Reply-To: <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> Message-ID: <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> On 04/16/2013 08:15 AM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > Are eisa computers really less easy to be found, now ? Probably - it's not like they were that common even when new, and I'm sure most of them went to landfill because they were "just a PC". I can't believe I got a kick out of finding a PC with ISA slots the other day, but it's the only one I've seen around here in the last five years, so it seemed silly not to rescue it :-) From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Apr 17 17:29:14 2013 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (stefan skoglund(agj)) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:29:14 +0200 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516D9B67.90400@jwsss.com> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> <516D9B67.90400@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1366237754.6798.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tis 2013-04-16 klockan 11:41 -0700 skrev jim s: > On 4/16/2013 10:47 AM, David Riley wrote: > >> >It's infected everything. This city (Toronto) still has leather/shoe repairers, though. > > We have them in Philadelphia, too. It can get hard to justify > > when it costs more to repair/resole a shoe than to buy a new > > pair, but my wife is an opera performer, so sometimes it's > > important enough to repair a pair that looks good. > There are shoe repair services (more than one) in Orange County, ca, but > my latest service that went missing was knife sharpening. > > jim DON'T YOU have any really good restaurants ?? Where do you think the chefs go with their knives ? Ask them. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 17:32:48 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:32:48 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EFD11.5070607@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> <516EFD11.5070607@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516F2310.9060702@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 03:50 PM, MG wrote: >> Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile? >> >> I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd >> prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;) > > Be careful, the IBM zealots/fundamentalists might lynch you for that > remark. Nope, not a troll! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 17:34:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:34:13 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 03:53 PM, MG wrote: >> I got five bucks on the goat. > > Why aren't you actually in the Air Force, instead of playing around > in a cockpit at home? Not a troll at all! Hey, wait...Gene, is he threatening you? Holy crap, I'm callin' Interpol! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 18:02:56 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:02:56 -0000 Subject: computing the old way References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> <516D8C57.9030103@neurotica.com> <516DA1F5.7020700@gewt.net> Message-ID: On 17 Apr 2013, at 15:58, "Tothwolf" wrote: > > On Tue, 16 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> On 04/16/2013 01:58 PM, David Riley wrote: >> >>> Well, unless your DNS server has crashed for some perfectly valid reason. Say, maybe, the janitor bumped into the server rack and accidentally ejected a hot-swap drive and caused a kernel panic. I've heard of that happening (to companies who subsequently either got rack doors or stopped letting the janitors clean the server room). >> >> I was assuming it was a non-trivial fault. I'm used to DNS servers not failing I guess. ;) >> >> My home DNS server crashed when my CD-ROM drive failed once...kept running until I tried to update the zonefile. >> >> HOW DOES A CD-ROM DRIVE SPONTANEOUSLY FAIL?! > > Out of the different cdrom drives I've disassembled... dust and dirt, faulty solder joints, bad electrolytics, failed laser diodes, and poor quality leaf switches. The leaf switch issue was particularly fun as I had a school with dozens and dozens of Goldstar branded cdrom drives that would spontaneously and randomly eject their trays. It turned out the plating on the switches was crap and when the switch wouldn't reliably register that the tray was closed, the drive would eject the tray. Had they either plated the contacts properly or had better switch debounce logic the drives probably would have been fine. In the end, we replaced them all and I kept a half dozen around to tinker with. This disappeared from the IDE bus during runtime when the drive was completely idle. Tray still ejects. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 17 18:11:13 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 01:11:13 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <021501ce3b9f$54e3b0d0$feab1270$@ntlworld.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> <021501ce3b9f$54e3b0d0$feab1270$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <516F2C11.5080807@xs4all.nl> On 17-apr-2013 21:11, Rob Jarratt wrote: > http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/Microsoft-Services/Nationwide-Building- > Society/Delivery-Partner-Helps-Nationwide-Deploy-High-Performing-Faster-Paym > ents-Service/4000008133 Keep the FBI phone number handy, just in case McGuire 'loses it' (again). - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 17 18:40:13 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 01:40:13 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516F0560.8080006@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516F0560.8080006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516F32DD.9010908@xs4all.nl> On 17-apr-2013 22:26, mc68010 wrote: > They are pretty clear nobody should use the system to learn zos and > should have training before you use the system. Looks like the ban > people without mercy and very quickly too. Doesn't look like the > place to casually go and check out zos. That's also what I remarked, or couldn't help but notice. - MG From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Apr 17 18:52:23 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:52:23 +0000 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D92905@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 4/17/13 7:14 AM, "MG" wrote: >On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: >> *grabs popcorn bowl* > >Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >much more, to just mention a few. > What fun is that? Totalitarian approaches to repress creativity, I say. ITS, anyone? -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Apr 17 18:55:38 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:55:38 +0000 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D9294C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 4/17/13 11:58 AM, "geneb" wrote: >On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:01 PM, geneb wrote: >>> >>> Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks! >> >> This too shall pass. > >You just could NOT resist that, could you? :) I'm traveling, or he wouldn't have beat me to it. :-) From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 17 19:38:20 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:38:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, MG wrote: > On 17-apr-2013 19:00, geneb wrote: >> I got five bucks on the goat. > > Why aren't you actually in the Air Force, instead of playing around > in a cockpit at home? > > - MG > > *plonk* From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 19:42:47 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:42:47 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >> >> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >> > I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to. Come on over! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 19:45:35 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:45:35 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >> >> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >> > I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect > it to. > Can you get it to do TN3270? > g. > > -- -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From jws at jwsss.com Wed Apr 17 19:48:05 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 17:48:05 -0700 Subject: Public mainframe system (Irma & and other 3270 cards) In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <516F42C5.50506@jwsss.com> On 4/17/2013 2:19 PM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >> >> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >> > I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to > connect it to. > > g. > A 3174 63R doesn't cost much. More importantly do you have the software for the IRMA card? From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 19:49:38 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:49:38 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516EFC1D.4020609@xs4all.nl> <2B47B089-DC0A-4FB3-A46A-001EFA894F4D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:46 PM, MG wrote: >> On 17-apr-2013 18:37, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend... >>> so he assumes they aren't there. >> >> What did I assume? I was openly wondering why they haven't implemented >> restrictions on that FanDeZhi system, then I got the usual IBM partisan >> mob after me (like before) here. > > Nope. You just got your wittle peepee whacked by people who have actually done this before. > >> Did you ever try to log on there? > > Nope. I have my own. > I forget, do you have physical IBM systems too? I know you have Cray gear. >>> You'll find people like this love to hang around on mailing lists >>> like this one, which are full of both knowledgeable and opinionated >>> people. >> >> To which category do you belong? > > That is a matter of opinion! I know to which group YOU belong, though, and that's all that really matters. > I think I'm the only one here who is a fan of NT 4, so I think I fit in to the latter category. ;) >>> They throw little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually >>> because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet. >> >> Didn't you threaten me with violence a while back? Not the wisest >> thing you can do. It's not the 1980s Usenet, it's not an electronic >> El Dorado. > > Ha!! Kiss my ass. Hmmm. It sure feels like it's the 1980s/1990s Usenet...i'm sitting at a VT420 typing on an LK201 with Alpine running on a PII i'm connected to via LAT from a DECserver. ;) > > -Dave > > -- -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 19:52:39 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:52:39 +0000 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? Message-ID: <1189021599-1366246356-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-576134137-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Catscan.. From slandon110 at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 19:56:04 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:56:04 -0400 Subject: Machines for Local Pickup in Flushing- Prices Negotiable Message-ID: <516F44A4.6000601@gmail.com> Im trying to purchase a vehicle and finance a move so these machines gotta go. Local Pickup only, Im not shipping these machines IBM PC 5150, Nice original machine with Sysdyne Color RGB Display Original Boxes, Has a 20MB Hardcard installed, along with an ethernet card $200 Nice original Apple II Plus System Monitor /// z80 Card ThunderClock Plus Clock Card Monitor /// Stand Kensington SystemSaver $200 Apple IIGS System Monitor, Keyboard, Mouse AE GSRam Plus Ram Upgrade with 1MB RAM, Expandable to 6MB SCSI Card and 80MB External HDD $200 Apple //e System CFFA 3000 Z80 CPM Card Super Serial Card Apple UniDisk 3.5 Drive card with 2 Unidisk 3.5 Drives DuoDisk 5.25 Drive Apple II Appletalk Card- Connects your Apple II to your localtalk network Apple RGB Monitor Card Apple Color Monitor 100- Digital RGB Monitor for //e $300 dollars Bell & Howell Apple II 1 Matching Bell & Howell Drive Hayes Micromodem II with Microcoupler z80 Card Super Serial Card Matching black 9inch CRT Monitor $300 Atari ST520FM TOS 2.0 ROMs included not installed Monitor and Mouse 52MB SCSI HDD with ICD ACSI to SCSI Adapter Card $100 Televideo TVI 925 Terminal- Works great $100 Osborne 1 System- Bad caps $40 Compaq Portable /// Works $40 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 20:01:23 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:01:23 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5EBBFC12-DF53-4BC8-A266-48542502E8C1@neurotica.com> On Apr 17, 2013, at 6:09 PM, "Sam O'nella" wrote: > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks Windows >> machines process financial transactions. ;) >> > > Not quite sure what you meant but a lot of ATMs went to WindowsCE or > variants after OS/2 support was dropped by IBM. Yes eComStation tried and > probably has some market share but still, surprising to many I'd consider > that to be banking via a Windows machine for argument sake. Yes, we all know that. The ATMs, however, don't process account debits and credits. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Apr 17 20:03:28 2013 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:03:28 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <05DB2F64-D046-4F8B-9358-3BC8BBDBFCC8@gmail.com> <516DA392.10805@sydex.com> <516DCAE1.9090900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <516F4660.507@verizon.net> On 4/17/2013 2:37 AM, David Griffith wrote: > You might enjoy some old-fashioned homemade bay rum lotion. Look around > on the wet-shaving forums. This is the same stuff Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble sing about in the cartoons, if I'm not mistaken. "Shave and a haircut, bay rum" http://dan.hersam.com/2004/09/21/shave-and-a-haircut-two-bits/ with the comments being more interesting than the post, perhaps... Completely OT of course From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 20:05:10 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:05:10 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516EFC1D.4020609@xs4all.nl> <2B47B089-DC0A-4FB3-A46A-001EFA894F4D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <34A9A289-2701-42A5-B44D-C455BE818F8E@neurotica.com> On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:49 PM, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:46 PM, MG wrote: >>> On 17-apr-2013 18:37, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend... >>>> so he assumes they aren't there. >>> >>> What did I assume? I was openly wondering why they haven't implemented >>> restrictions on that FanDeZhi system, then I got the usual IBM partisan >>> mob after me (like before) here. >> >> Nope. You just got your wittle peepee whacked by people who have actually done this before. >> >>> Did you ever try to log on there? >> >> Nope. I have my own. >> > > I forget, do you have physical IBM systems too? I know you have Cray gear. I do. >>>> They throw little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually >>>> because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet. >>> >>> Didn't you threaten me with violence a while back? Not the wisest >>> thing you can do. It's not the 1980s Usenet, it's not an electronic >>> El Dorado. >> >> Ha!! Kiss my ass. > > Hmmm. It sure feels like it's the 1980s/1990s Usenet...i'm sitting at a VT420 typing on an LK201 with Alpine running on a PII i'm connected to via LAT from a DECserver. ;) The difference of course being that, in the 80s and (at least very early) 90s, the prick stirring up trouble usually had some sort of a technical clue. At least if it wasn't September. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 20:10:21 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 01:10:21 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516EFC1D.4020609@xs4all.nl> <2B47B089-DC0A-4FB3-A46A-001EFA894F4D@neurotica.com> <34A9A289-2701-42A5-B44D-C455BE818F8E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:49 PM, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:46 PM, MG wrote: >>>> On 17-apr-2013 18:37, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>>> They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend... >>>>> so he assumes they aren't there. >>>> >>>> What did I assume? I was openly wondering why they haven't implemented >>>> restrictions on that FanDeZhi system, then I got the usual IBM partisan >>>> mob after me (like before) here. >>> >>> Nope. You just got your wittle peepee whacked by people who have actually done this before. >>> >>>> Did you ever try to log on there? >>> >>> Nope. I have my own. >>> >> >> I forget, do you have physical IBM systems too? I know you have Cray gear.. > > I do. Which ones? How many spare System/360s do you have? ;) > >>>>> They throw little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually >>>>> because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet. >>>> >>>> Didn't you threaten me with violence a while back? Not the wisest >>>> thing you can do. It's not the 1980s Usenet, it's not an electronic >>>> El Dorado. >>> >>> Ha!! Kiss my ass. >> >> Hmmm. It sure feels like it's the 1980s/1990s Usenet...i'm sitting at a VT420 typing on an LK201 with Alpine running on a PII i'm connected to via LAT from a DECserver. ;) > > The difference of course being that, in the 80s and (at least very early) 90s, the prick stirring up trouble usually had some sort of a technical clue. At least if it wasn't September. Ah. Damn you AOL, why'd you have to go taking away all our nice things? :( > > -Dave > > -- -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 20:13:55 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130417181206.D63055@shell.lmi.net> > > > Actually, given a good isolation amplifier (I wouldn't attempt it > > > withot), I suspect you could get sueful signals from electrodes o ntej > > > outside of a cat and dispaly them o na 'scope. But I would want to try it > > > on myself first, I am less valuable than a cat? > > But what would the electrodes measure? ;) Capacitance of the cat? > > Bioelectric fields or something? Like a Scientology "E- Meter"? > I would assume that as with people you could monitor heart operation, > detect brain activity ,adn so on. I am _NOT_ goign to try it though. A cat EKG might even be useful. Vets would love a CAT-scan device. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 20:17:11 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H780 power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130417181451.W63055@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > I do hate machines that think they know better than I do what I actually > want. It's fine to warn me that a word was not found in the dictionary, > but not to change it. After all, a lot of what I type involves signal > names, variable names, assembly language mnemonics, etc. Those are > unlikely to be found in a (smartphone) dictionary, and changing them will > make nonsnse of the text. About three decades ago, I designed a spell checking program with heuristically developed lexicon. 'course when you switch to another set of mnemonics that you haven't used before, it would call your attention to each. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 17 20:06:41 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:06:41 -0500 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <201304171959.PAA01630@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201304171853.r3HIrAkn044514@mx1.ezwind.net> <201304171959.PAA01630@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201304180121.r3I1LJKE087891@mx1.ezwind.net> At 02:59 PM 4/17/2013, Mouse wrote: >Or at least that's my guess. I haven't seen the code, but it looks to >me as though the end-agent desktop is probably doing format conversion >(eg, digit strings to binary numbers) at the very least, quite possibly >some verification and backend selection, possibly even more.. I think they're running code loaded from a local server that does nothing more than logic-and-verify, and all the results and transaction requests are queued into a database that's fed daily to the big machines. There are an assortment of line-of-business apps at any bank, of course, and they vary. Loan processing software, for example, helps them with compliance and filling out forms, but doesn't really "process". - John From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 20:19:46 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 01:19:46 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Sam O'nella wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:33 AM, MG wrote: > >> On 16-apr-2013 22:10, David Riley wrote: >> >>> I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what >>> to do. Time to read up... >>> >> >> Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they >> restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That >> makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway. >> >> - MG >> > > I think this was an honest question of yours not bait although I did find > the popcorn comments funny. I didn't see much explanation for you if you > were really seeking which would have been nice. I've only done minor > admin/system administration on a mainframe and I was using tools/commands > that were written by the other security admin and some minor commands in > "Top Secret" (tss) so my experience probably doesn't add up to much. But > yes, you can pretty much secure any user down to the command or subsystem > they're allowed to access. It's quite granular and well put together if > you understand the logic of the mainframe environment. > > https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/CMS-Information-Technology/InformationSecurity/downloads/WP12-TopSecret.pdfis > a guide but grab some Jolt or something before trying to sit down and > actually read through it. These guides are a discipline of their own to > sit through lol. > It's much easier to get through the MTS manuals...the commands for it actually seem logical and like they weren't written using a spinning dartboard and a random number generator. (I know I exaggerated, but MVS is a bit strange, you gotta admit that) The HELP system is useful, too! It's menu driven. It's far, far superior to UNIX/Linux man pages. Linux man pages are also inferior to BSD man pages...I like man pages on all the drivers. ;) -- -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 20:23:01 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 01:23:01 -0000 Subject: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > > On 04/16/2013 08:15 AM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: >> Are eisa computers really less easy to be found, now ? > > Probably - it's not like they were that common even when new, and I'm sure > most of them went to landfill because they were "just a PC". I can't > believe I got a kick out of finding a PC with ISA slots the other day, but > it's the only one I've seen around here in the last five years, so it > seemed silly not to rescue it :-) > I had a dual-PIII server board that had an EISA slot or too...unfortunately I binned it when ribbon cables on it caught fire. (I still don't know how that happened...it had to have been overvoltage) I don't have any EISA systems left at all...my current PII may have one, not sure. Another system with EISA is on its way to me. Btw, anyone have any blank 5.25" floppies kicking around? ;) > > -- -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 17 20:28:03 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:28:03 -0700 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516F4C23.9050309@sydex.com> On 04/17/2013 12:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Teh 700 is perhaps not _quite_ so solid. It's a Daiblo 630 chassis fitted > with a dot matrix head. And the cover is plastic. But it's still a lot > better than soem I could name. Diablo also had a dot-matrix printer. Heavy, tractor-feed, insanely noisy--used a couple of Rockwell MCUs. I don't recall the model number. I used one for a couple of years and have never seen another. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 20:29:58 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:29:58 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516EFC1D.4020609@xs4all.nl> <2B47B089-DC0A-4FB3-A46A-001EFA894F4D@neurotica.com> <34A9A289-2701-42A5-B44D-C455BE818F8E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516F4C96.1010908@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 09:10 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> I forget, do you have physical IBM systems too? I know you have Cray gear.. >> >> I do. > > Which ones? z/890 S/370 9375 Multiprise 3000 (sorta counts) P/390 (barely counts) > How many spare System/360s do you have? ;) Heh...I wish! ;) >> The difference of course being that, in the 80s and (at least very early) >> 90s, the prick stirring up trouble usually had some sort of a technical >> clue. At least if it wasn't September. > > Ah. Damn you AOL, why'd you have to go taking away all our nice things? :( Yep. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 20:55:17 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:55:17 -0400 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516E0A81.9070904@neurotica.com> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> <516E0A81.9070904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 10:35 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I had a coffee maker about six or seven years ago that inexplicably became > infested with ants. When I cracked it open to clean it out (which was > dubious to begin with) I found that they were all clustered around what > looked like some silicone sealant in one part of the machine. Something > about that big blob of sealant attracted them. That was the only place in > the machine where there were ants. If I had to guess, I'd suspect it was acetic acid in the RTV. -ethan From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 20:57:21 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 01:57:21 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/17/2013 03:53 PM, MG wrote: >>> I got five bucks on the goat. >> >> Why aren't you actually in the Air Force, instead of playing around >> in a cockpit at home? > > Not a troll at all! > > Hey, wait...Gene, is he threatening you? Holy crap, I'm callin' > Interpol! > Can't forget the CIA, too! > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 21:03:36 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:03:36 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516F2C11.5080807@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> <021501ce3b9f$54e3b0d0$feab1270$@ntlworld.com> <516F2C11.5080807@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516F5478.1040703@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 07:11 PM, MG wrote: > On 17-apr-2013 21:11, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/Microsoft-Services/Nationwide-Building- >> Society/Delivery-Partner-Helps-Nationwide-Deploy-High-Performing-Faster-Paym >> ents-Service/4000008133 > > Keep the FBI phone number handy, just in case McGuire 'loses it' > (again). AHAHAHAAAHAHHA!! Moron. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 21:06:34 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130417185242.F63055@shell.lmi.net> > Why aren't you actually in the Air Force, instead of playing around > in a cockpit at home? Because in the Air Force, you have to SHARE the planes, computers, and other goodies with a whole bunch of other people! Not everybody wants time-sharing. And, in the Air Force, other people make the decisions about who you should bomb and so forth. Long, long ago, in the old country (don't know which country, but it was old), my great, great, great, not so great, grandfather had a gig polishing the cannon in front of the town hall. he would get up before dawn, trudge up the hill in the snow (it was uphill in both directions in those days) wipe down the dew, touch up any new scratches, and polish it until it gleamed. Then he would trudge back up the hill until the next day. One day, he came to a realization; "This job is getting me nowhere! I can't pick my own hours. There is no opportunity for advancement! I'll be doing this until I die!" so, . . . He bought his own cannon and went into business for himself. In 1979, I bought my own computer, and went into business for myself. Gene has put together the cockpit. It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pye at mactec.com.au Wed Apr 17 21:17:23 2013 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:17:23 +1000 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <1366237754.6798.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> <516D9B67.90400@jwsss.com> <1366237754.6798.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <8EF03651-0EFE-4A1F-8A06-494D1DEE29DB@mactec.com.au> On 18/04/2013, at 8:29 AM, "stefan skoglund(agj)" wrote: > DON'T YOU have any really good restaurants ?? > > Where do you think the chefs go with their knives ? Ask them. Don't good chefs know how to sharpen their own knives? Good butchers certainly do, it use to be part of their training. Likewise a good carpenter knows how to sharpen their own chisels. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 21:21:29 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:21:29 -0400 Subject: New hardware project... In-Reply-To: <20130417223922.1f97079c71282abc7ce8e505@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <516DC5A6.1060307@neurotica.com> <20130417223922.1f97079c71282abc7ce8e505@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <516F58A9.5010508@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 04:39 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> Quite a few Sun framebuffers have ECL outputs, but they're all very old >> ones (older than the 3/140) and all monochrome. > I have some SBus bwtwo with ECL output. They where used in the first > SPARCstation 1s. Oh yes, I remember those! They didn't last very far into the SPARCstation era, if memory serves. Those monitors are getting really tough to find. I'd like to have a few for my 3/60s. > Regarding the cable length problem: Smells a lot like a termination > problem. There are special differential ECL transmitter and receiver > ICs with build in active termination for this purpose. What are the characteristics of those terminators? I wonder if that's the OP's problem as Tony suggested. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 17 21:25:57 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: > >> >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >>> >>> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >>> >> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect >> it to. >> > > Can you get it to do TN3270? No idea. It came with an absolutely pristine 5160 I got about four years ago. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 17 21:29:04 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/17/2013 03:53 PM, MG wrote: >>> I got five bucks on the goat. >> >> Why aren't you actually in the Air Force, instead of playing around >> in a cockpit at home? > > Not a troll at all! > > Hey, wait...Gene, is he threatening you? Holy crap, I'm callin' Interpol! > Nah. It must take a long time to hammer out hissy fits on a Fischer-Price keyboard though. I'd be pretty cranky too. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 17 21:30:17 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D9294C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D9294C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Ian King wrote: > On 4/17/13 11:58 AM, "geneb" wrote: > >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:01 PM, geneb wrote: >>>> >>>> Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks! >>> >>> This too shall pass. >> >> You just could NOT resist that, could you? :) > > I'm traveling, or he wouldn't have beat me to it. :-) > *high fives Ian* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 21:31:16 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 02:31:16 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: > >> >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: >> >>> >>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >>>> >>>> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >>>> >>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect >>> it to. >>> >> >> Can you get it to do TN3270? > > No idea. It came with an absolutely pristine 5160 I got about four years > ago. > Unrelated question...but I love how I received this email "Tomorrow". > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 21:49:25 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:49:25 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 08:45 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >>> >>> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >>> >> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect >> it to. >> > > Can you get it to do TN3270? Those IRMA boards implement a 3270 hardware interface...nothing to do with IP. TN3270 (as you know) is effectively 3270-over-IP. The 3270 hardware protocol uses coaxial cables and BNC connectors. Upstream from terminals and printers are usually found "establishment controllers", like 3174s, etc. They connect to a host (mainframe) via either a LAN connection (Ethernet or token ring), serial bisync over a modem or direct connection, parallel channel (an older high-speed IBM mainframe controller interface), or some other method. That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever it's for) to one of those establishment controllers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 21:53:40 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:53:40 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <8A209A40-9A00-47BC-AD9B-64859A5E9E34@gmail.com> On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: > >> >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >>> >>> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >>> >> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect >> it to. >> > > Can you get it to do TN3270? No, that's a REAL 3270 card for hooking up over coax (what was it, SDLC? Something in the SNA family). Later ones had twisted pair as well, but I don't know driving what. They made NuBus and Mac SE card versions as well, probably quite a few other types. I guess you COULD get it to do tn3270, given an appropriate proxy, but that seems to me like hooking a VT100 to a machine to bridge to IP to connect to another machine running ser2net. You could do it, it might be kind of cool, but you could remove the middleman. - Dave From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Wed Apr 17 22:07:00 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC World: If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It: Ancient Computers in Use Today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1366254420.15356.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >________________________________ > From: Liam Proven >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Sent: Thursday, 18 April 2013 1:44 AM >Subject: PC World: If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It: Ancient Computers in Use Today > > >By Benj Edwards, PCWorldFeb 19, 2012 6:00 PM > >?It?s easy to wax nostalgic about old technology--to remember fondly >our first Apple IIe or marvel at the old mainframes that ran on >punched cards. But no one in their right mind would use those >outdated, underpowered dinosaurs to run a contemporary business, let >alone a modern weapons system, right? > >Wrong!? > >http://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if_it_aint_broke_dont_fix_it_ancient_computers_in_use_today.html > >(I may have posted this before - it's a year old. If so, sorry.) >good read :) tom -- >Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile >Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven >MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven >Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 17 22:16:16 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:16:16 -0400 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <1189021599-1366246356-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-576134137-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1189021599-1366246356-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-576134137-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <516F6580.2070508@neurotica.com> On 04/17/2013 08:52 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Catscan.. YES!! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ba600 at ncf.ca Wed Apr 17 22:38:42 2013 From: ba600 at ncf.ca (Mike) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:38:42 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1732674.HV60XEaBfv@linux-zlo2> On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 12:35:55 PM Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote: > > On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote: > >> *grabs popcorn bowl* > > > > Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have > > things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and > > much more, to just mention a few. > > I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks Windows > machines process financial transactions. ;) The Bank I used to work for wanted to replace their IBM mainframe running CA- Datacom/Ideal. After a lengthy process they selected a system that would run on the HP 3000. Following the presentation announcing this bold move forward I pointed out to the committee chair that HP had just announced that they were retiring the 3000. They decided to stick with the Software and run it on a HP/us platform. When all the boxes arrived there was one small box from HP and a dozen from Dell. The database would run on an HP and the rest of the system on a dozen Windows server machines. The Security officer who had approved the migration was not ammused with the changes. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 17 23:04:07 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:04:07 -0700 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <516F4660.507@verizon.net> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <05DB2F64-D046-4F8B-9358-3BC8BBDBFCC8@gmail.com> <516DA392.10805@sydex.com> <516DCAE1.9090900@sydex.com> <516F4660.507@verizon.net> Message-ID: <516F70B7.7030703@sydex.com> On 04/17/2013 06:03 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > > "Shave and a haircut, bay rum" I also learned it as "Shave and a haircut, two bits", but it's been a long time since anyone could get a shave and a haircut for 25 cents. 25 dollars is more like it. I'd thought that bay rum had gone the way of Lydia Pinkham's but a quick check on eBay shows that it's still being sold. Maybe I'll spring for a bottle. I always did like the smell. "Get Wildroot cream oil, Charlie, It keeps your hair in trim..." --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 17 23:47:49 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: floppy (was: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed In-Reply-To: References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130417214415.H66858@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Btw, anyone have any blank 5.25" floppies kicking around? ;) Hard sector or soft-sector? 300 oersted or 600? (aka "360K" V "1.2M") SS V DS, 48tpi V 96tpi V 100tpi, SD V DD are basically issues of testing. From b4 at gewt.net Wed Apr 17 23:49:38 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 04:49:38 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516EFC1D.4020609@xs4all.nl> <2B47B089-DC0A-4FB3-A46A-001EFA894F4D@neurotica.com> <34A9A289-2701-42A5-B44D-C455BE818F8E@neurotica.com> <516F4C96.1010908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 17 Apr 2013, at 21:29, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > On 04/17/2013 09:10 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>> I forget, do you have physical IBM systems too? I know you have Cray gear.. >>> >>> I do. >> >> Which ones? > > z/890 > S/370 9375 I wonder if MTS would run on that S/370... > Multiprise 3000 (sorta counts) > P/390 (barely counts) > >> How many spare System/360s do you have? ;) > > Heh...I wish! ;) ;) > >>> The difference of course being that, in the 80s and (at least very early) >>> 90s, the prick stirring up trouble usually had some sort of a technical >>> clue. At least if it wasn't September. >> >> Ah. Damn you AOL, why'd you have to go taking away all our nice things? :( > > Yep. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From wilson at dbit.com Thu Apr 18 00:20:24 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 01:20:24 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130418052024.GA13134@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 01:28:28PM -0400, Bob Vines wrote: >Do you recall the vendor's name? I've got several old printers (and >an ASR-33) that need ribbons. Aw man ... according to my bookmarks it was cfriends.com but it's a cybersquatter now. That's really too bad. For what it's worth, I bought an ASR33 ribbon off the shelf at my local Office Max in the 1990s. Blew my mind, but it was smart of Teletype to use a very common ribbon size. Geez this might even be it: http://www.officemax.com/technology/ink-toner-ribbons/ribbons/porelon-ribbons/product-ARS23678?R=20957902&ssp=true ... and if so it's in stock at three Office Maxes in my state, which is pretty cool even if the nearest is 40 miles away. John Wilson D Bit From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 18 01:01:29 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 07:01:29 +0100 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? Message-ID: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> I would like to discuss some aspects of the management of this list with the person who has this responsibility. Thanks Rob From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 01:42:53 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 06:42:53 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> On 17 Apr 2013, at 22:49, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > On 04/17/2013 08:45 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >>>> >>>> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >>>> >>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect >>> it to. >>> >> >> Can you get it to do TN3270? > > Those IRMA boards implement a 3270 hardware interface...nothing to do with > IP. TN3270 (as you know) is effectively 3270-over-IP. Ah, right. > > The 3270 hardware protocol uses coaxial cables and BNC connectors. > Upstream from terminals and printers are usually found "establishment > controllers", like 3174s, etc. They connect to a host (mainframe) via either > a LAN connection (Ethernet or token ring), serial bisync over a modem or > direct connection, parallel channel (an older high-speed IBM mainframe > controller interface), or some other method. Interesting architecture! > > That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever > it's for) to one of those establishment controllers. I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Apr 18 01:49:05 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 02:49:05 -0400 Subject: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cory Smelosky" To: "Jules Richardson" Cc: "cctalk" Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:23 PM Subject: Re: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed > > I had a dual-PIII server board that had an EISA slot or > too...unfortunately I binned it when ribbon cables on it caught fire. (I > still don't know how that happened...it had to have been overvoltage) I > don't have any EISA systems left at all...my current PII may have one, not > sure. Another system with EISA is on its way to me. > Are you sure they are EISA and not ISA? EISA died out kind of quickly when PCI came out which was well before the P3 era. From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 02:11:56 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 07:11:56 -0000 Subject: floppy (was: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <20130417214415.H66858@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <7A26B676-314A-426F-A249-D86311EE1F7B@gewt.net> On 18 Apr 2013, at 00:47, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> Btw, anyone have any blank 5.25" floppies kicking around? ;) > > Hard sector or soft-sector? > > 300 oersted or 600? (aka "360K" V "1.2M") > SS V DS, 48tpi V 96tpi V 100tpi, SD V DD are basically issues of testing. Not sure yet, System hasn't been delivered yet. I know for sure it's 1.2M but I'm not sure of the other specifications. I'll respond once I have the drive. ;) > > > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 18 02:46:58 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <20130417181206.D63055@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130417181206.D63055@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > A cat EKG might even be useful. > > Vets would love a CAT-scan device. I think it was catscan.org where people posted pics created by putting cats atop document scanners. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 02:49:09 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 08:49:09 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <8A209A40-9A00-47BC-AD9B-64859A5E9E34@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <8A209A40-9A00-47BC-AD9B-64859A5E9E34@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516FA575.9030007@gmail.com> On 18/04/2013 03:53, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >>>> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >>>> >>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect >>> it to. >>> >> Can you get it to do TN3270? > No, that's a REAL 3270 card for hooking up over coax (what was it, > SDLC? Something in the SNA family). Later ones had twisted pair > as well, but I don't know driving what. Oddly 3270's can be SNA or non-SNA, its the controller configuration that decides, but I guess what runs over the CO-AX isn't really SNA. VM/370 has never really had SNA support but will support many 3270 terminals. Yes IBM did add SNA support in VM/SP5 but only via cludginging of yet another clone of MVS (in the guise of GCS) into VM. The later 3174 controller also act as Telnet terminal servers so you can use a 3170 connection as an ANSI terminal onto a DEC host... > They made NuBus and Mac SE card versions as well, probably quite a > few other types. > > I guess you COULD get it to do tn3270, given an appropriate proxy, Just plug it into a 3174 with the appropriate firmware. It will do normal TELNET as well... > but that seems to me like hooking a VT100 to a machine to bridge > to IP to connect to another machine running ser2net. You could do > it, it might be kind of cool, but you could remove the middleman. > If you had a real Mainframe with a local 3174 that was the sort of thing folks did all the time. > - Dave > Dave From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Apr 18 03:34:24 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 10:34:24 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D92905@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D92905@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <516FB010.4010303@xs4all.nl> On 18-apr-2013 1:52, Ian King wrote: >> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have >> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and >> much more, to just mention a few. >> > > What fun is that? Totalitarian approaches to repress creativity, I say. > ITS, anyone? -- Ian What is fun about getting a false sense of freedom? Also, "repress creativity"? At least in a totalitarian system, you know what you can and can't do. So, you can actually do something and be truly creative, albeit within the bounds of those limitations. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Apr 18 03:39:16 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 10:39:16 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <20130417185242.F63055@shell.lmi.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> <20130417185242.F63055@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <516FB134.2040608@xs4all.nl> On 18-apr-2013 4:06, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Why aren't you actually in the Air Force, instead of playing around >> in a cockpit at home? > > Because in the Air Force, you have to SHARE the planes, > computers, and other goodies with a whole bunch of other people! Imagine that! > Not everybody wants time-sharing. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It's hilarious that you should mention that in a thread about IBM. > And, in the Air Force, other people make the decisions about > who you should bomb and so forth. So? - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Apr 18 03:44:38 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 10:44:38 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516FB276.2060203@xs4all.nl> On 18-apr-2013 0:18, Sam O'nella wrote: > I think this was an honest question of yours not bait although I did find > the popcorn comments funny. I didn't see much explanation for you if you > were really seeking which would have been nice. That would indeed have been nice. > I've only done minor admin/system administration on a mainframe and I was > using tools/commands that were written by the other security admin and some > minor commands in "Top Secret" (tss) so my experience probably doesn't add > up to much. But yes, you can pretty much secure any user down to the command > or subsystem they're allowed to access. It's quite granular and well put > together if you understand the logic of the mainframe environment. Well, I would've certainly expected that. I was mostly wondering why they didn't implement such restrictions on that remote access system. > https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/CMS-Information-Technology/InformationSecurity/downloads/WP12-TopSecret.pdfis > a guide but grab some Jolt or something before trying to sit down and > actually read through it. These guides are a discipline of their own to > sit through lol. Thanks for linking me to that, that looks interesting. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Apr 18 03:49:34 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 10:49:34 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516FB39E.3060901@xs4all.nl> On 18-apr-2013 3:19, Cory Smelosky wrote: > It's much easier to get through the MTS manuals...the commands for it > actually seem logical and like they weren't written using a spinning > dartboard and a random number generator. (I know I exaggerated, but MVS > is a bit strange, you gotta admit that) On FanDeZhi I tried MVS, or some variation of it and --- I don't know if it's the usual incarnation --- but it struck me as being very much like UNIX? (With a Bourne Shell, of some type, although missing many things like Curses.) > The HELP system is useful, too! It's menu driven. It's far, far > superior to UNIX/Linux man pages. It's not bad, but, I personally like the VMS HELP system best of all. UNIX "man" pages vary, especially between various 'vendors' and also depending on how you'd like to process (e.g. pipe) them. > Linux man pages are also inferior to BSD man pages...I like man pages on > all the drivers. ;) Linux "man" pages also doesn't always seem to abide to common formatting rules. - MG From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 04:20:55 2013 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 11:20:55 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516FB39E.3060901@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516FB39E.3060901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:49 AM, MG wrote: > > On FanDeZhi I tried MVS, or some variation of it and --- I don't know > if it's the usual incarnation --- but it struck me as being very much > like UNIX? (With a Bourne Shell, of some type, although missing many > things like Curses.) Sounds like you entered the OMVS command, which gives you a shell that's part of the UNIX system services (USS). USS began it's life as an addition to MVS called MVS Open Edition, hence the OMVS command to enter the shell from TSO. Camiel. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Apr 18 06:08:13 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 23:08:13 +1200 Subject: Thorny diagnostic issue for an Epson QX-10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Tony and others who replied. I might give the lightbulb load a go. Tez On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 8:37 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Symptom: A QX-10 keeps shutting down, but at random and in an erratic > way. > > By erratic it will sometimes shutdown--Start---Shutdown--start---within a > > 1/2 second of each sequence. > > > > It sounds like there is a short somewhere or at least some component > > failing. But where? Its hard to diagnose because (1) It's intermittent > > and (2) I don't want to run the machine when it's flip flopping on and > off. > > That's definitely not good for the components. > > Wehn it does the on-off cycle, what is the power-on lED doing? IIRC > that's conenctesd to the +5V line. If that's blinking o nand off too, > it's most likey to eb a PSU issue. It could be the mainboard drawing to > omuch current, but I think that's a lot less likely. > > > > > I've determined that it's either the PSU or mainboard at fault. Both are > > for sale on e-Bay. However, I don't whant to buy both when only one is > the > > problem. > > Schematics are avaialble of all the bits of the QX10, including the PSU. > It should be possible to fix it. > > > Any ideas how I might determine which? The PSU doesn't not fire at all > if > > there is no load on it. > > Have you tried giving it a dummy load? At least a 6V bulb (about 6W to > 12W) betwe nthe 5V output pin and the ground (0V) pin with the PSU > disconencted from the rest of the machine. > > -tony > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 07:07:43 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 08:07:43 -0400 Subject: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <8EF03651-0EFE-4A1F-8A06-494D1DEE29DB@mactec.com.au> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> <516D9B67.90400@jwsss.com> <1366237754.6798.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <8EF03651-0EFE-4A1F-8A06-494D1DEE29DB@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: > Don't good chefs know how to sharpen their own knives? Good chefs do not have time to sharpen their own knives. -- Will From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 07:14:19 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:14:19 +0000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Cctalk is the unmoderated list. Cctech cuts out the jibberjabber and is moderated. I think its Jay West. -----Original Message----- From: "Rob Jarratt" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 07:01:29 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? I would like to discuss some aspects of the management of this list with the person who has this responsibility. Thanks Rob From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 07:32:59 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:32:59 +0000 Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: References: <014201ce3ab6$225de200$6719a600$@com> <516D7A10.2020100@gewt.net> <025e01ce3ac7$273d1320$75b73960$@com> <516ED057.7020502@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1837300421-1366288374-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1093872105-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> The one I stupidly did before was when tired and teying to delete some hidden (.directories) from a user folder which led me to the rm -rf .* nugget which picked up on . And .. Obviously after seeing it change to another user directory and start blowing that away also I cancelled it and realized my error. The one I've heard of but never did was I guess userdel with the argument to delete the users home directory. I've read the horror stories when the user was an admin or lazily set up and their home directory was /. The command works as expected :-) Another more funny one was a unix admin who was leaving for another job. He was on his bsd box at his desk and shuttong everything down but he forgot he had sshed into our mail server so his shutdown command which curiously seemed to be taking its time was sitting there and he freaked out when he realized the mistake. He was quite apologetic making sure it didn't look like a disgruntled last move. - John -----Original Message----- From: Mike Loewen Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:36:56 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: computing the old way On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > An old UNIX admins' joke...or an interview question: > > Q. "What's the difference between 'kill -1 1' and 'kill 1 1'?" > A. "A trip to the office at 2AM." Okay, hands up all those who have ever done 'rm -r' as root from / Confession: ONCE, on a SunOS system I was loading for a customer. http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/pricelist.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 08:13:02 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:13:02 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EFD11.5070607@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> <516EFD11.5070607@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516FF15E.2040102@gmail.com> MG wrote: > On 17-apr-2013 18:59, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile? >> >> I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd >> prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;) > > Be careful, the IBM zealots/fundamentalists might lynch you for that > remark. Are you threatening me? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 08:13:44 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:13:44 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516EFE43.1060705@sbcglobal.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516EF066.3040103@gmail.com> <516EFE43.1060705@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <516FF188.3000103@gmail.com> Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 04/17/2013 02:56 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> >>>> Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks! >>> >>> This too shall pass. >> >> Sounds painful. >> >> Peace... Sridhar >> > Shouldn't be too bad. It's only paper. Unless it's coins. :> Peace... Sridhar From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 08:18:56 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:18:56 -0400 Subject: floppy (was: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed In-Reply-To: <7A26B676-314A-426F-A249-D86311EE1F7B@gewt.net> References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <20130417214415.H66858@shell.lmi.net> <7A26B676-314A-426F-A249-D86311EE1F7B@gewt.net> Message-ID: <77517081-D062-4BB7-88D7-F626EF674756@gmail.com> On Apr 18, 2013, at 3:11, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: > > > On 18 Apr 2013, at 00:47, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > >> >> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> Btw, anyone have any blank 5.25" floppies kicking around? ;) >> >> Hard sector or soft-sector? >> >> 300 oersted or 600? (aka "360K" V "1.2M") >> SS V DS, 48tpi V 96tpi V 100tpi, SD V DD are basically issues of testing. > > Not sure yet, System hasn't been delivered yet. I know for sure it's 1.2M but I'm not sure of the other specifications. I'll respond once I have the drive. ;) It's a bog-standard "1.2M" (in the DOS sense) PC drive. I, uh, think I know the system you're talking about. :-) For what it's worth, I just got a box of 5.25" floppies on eBay for $10 with free shipping. They're generally pretty easy to find. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 18 09:07:30 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 10:07:30 -0400 Subject: Keep a sharp knife - Re: don't fix, throw away - Re: Computing the old way In-Reply-To: <1366237754.6798.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <516D854A.7040805@sydex.com> <516D8A0E.1020409@telegraphics.com.au> <9023C539-4B5C-4743-9DAF-825434010694@gmail.com> <516D9B67.90400@jwsss.com> <1366237754.6798.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <516FFE22.1050801@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/04/13 6:29 PM, stefan skoglund(agj) wrote: > tis 2013-04-16 klockan 11:41 -0700 skrev jim s: >> On 4/16/2013 10:47 AM, David Riley wrote: >>>>> It's infected everything. This city (Toronto) still has leather/shoe repairers, though. >>> We have them in Philadelphia, too. It can get hard to justify >>> when it costs more to repair/resole a shoe than to buy a new >>> pair, but my wife is an opera performer, so sometimes it's >>> important enough to repair a pair that looks good. >> There are shoe repair services (more than one) in Orange County, ca, but >> my latest service that went missing was knife sharpening. >> >> jim > > DON'T YOU have any really good restaurants ?? > > Where do you think the chefs go with their knives ? Ask them. > > We have knife sharpening services in Toronto, too. In fact I need to go visit one soon. I use Nella Cucina, on this list: http://www.blogto.com/toronto/lists/the_top_10_places_to_buy_kitchen_knives_in_toronto/ We even have indie knife specialists! http://www.torontolife.com/daily-dish/openings/2010/06/01/just-opened-knife-a-queen-west-shop-devoted-to-the-world%E2%80%99s-best-kitchen-blades/ --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 18 09:09:35 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 10:09:35 -0400 Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? (was: Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516FFE9F.9010003@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/04/13 12:16 PM, Bob Vines wrote: >> Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 05:59:23 -0500 >> From: John Foust >> To: >> Subject: Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? > >> Some processes are better today. I recently had some old (1940s to '70s) >> 8 mm family movies scanned digitally. >>... Coincidentally, I found this in my inbox today. http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/save-small-gauge-film Their scanner sounds like the cat's pajamas. --Toby >> >> - John > > John, > > Which "film to digital" service did you use? I have a box of 8mm > family videos taken in the '60s-'70s that I would really like to save. > It sounds like you are very happy with the results. > > Please contact me offline if you don't want to publically advertise the service. > > > Thanks, > > Bob > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 18 09:16:55 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 07:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb wrote: >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >>> >>> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >>> >> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to. > > Come on over! > So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 18 09:18:52 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 07:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system (Irma & and other 3270 cards) In-Reply-To: <516F42C5.50506@jwsss.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F42C5.50506@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Jim Stephens wrote: > > On 4/17/2013 2:19 PM, geneb wrote: >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >>> >>> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >>> >> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect >> it to. >> >> g. >> > A 3174 63R doesn't cost much. More importantly do you have the software for > the IRMA card? > I have no clue what that is. :) I made careful backups of the software that was on the 10MB drive before I wiped, SpinRite'd and put DOS 3.30 on it. (it had 2.0 on it when I got it) If the software was there, I've got it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 18 09:22:18 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 07:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed In-Reply-To: References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Btw, anyone have any blank 5.25" floppies kicking around? ;) > Contact Athana. New media and their service is _excellent_. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 18 09:25:08 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 07:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <20130417185242.F63055@shell.lmi.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> <20130417185242.F63055@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > Gene has put together the cockpit. > It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc. That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad enough at me as it is. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 18 09:29:59 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 10:29:59 -0400 Subject: Retro lolcats - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: <20130417181206.D63055@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51700367.2080702@telegraphics.com.au> On 18/04/13 3:46 AM, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> A cat EKG might even be useful. >> >> Vets would love a CAT-scan device. > > I think it was catscan.org where people posted pics created by putting > cats atop document scanners. > > Meaning there is lots of prior art for Angry Cat. http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md8it1QfjL1raw0k5o1_1280.jpg --Toby From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 18 09:39:50 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 07:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <516F6580.2070508@neurotica.com> References: <1189021599-1366246356-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-576134137-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <516F6580.2070508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/17/2013 08:52 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: >> Catscan.. > A young relative was bitterly disappointed(sp) to find out that a CAT scan didn't involve being covered with cats. Frankly, I liked his idea better than the reality of it. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 18 09:46:16 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 07:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> Message-ID: >> >> That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever >> it's for) to one of those establishment controllers. > > I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them? > Cory, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3270_emulator Here's another link you might find interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270_PC The 5160 I got MAY have had the special video and interface boards in it, but I can't recall at the moment. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Apr 18 09:23:50 2013 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:23:50 -0500 Subject: OT: "Classic" medical technology (was: Re: Computing the old way...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:28 -0500 4/18/13, wrote: >Vets would love a CAT-scan device. A couple of years ago my mother-in-law had a recurring problem with foot fungus. About 24 hours before any other sign indicated that it was time to medicate, her dogs and my sister-in-law's cats would start sniffing around her feet. She decided medical technology was really advancing - she was getting early notice either from the "Cat scan" or from the "lab test" (although the dogs were actually schnauzers, not labradors). -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Thu Apr 18 09:53:52 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 07:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: print shop / POD service Message-ID: <1366296832.33580.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I am looking for a print shop / Print On Demand service that can do pen plotter, Dot-matrix work --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 PGP ID: A7EF6006 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 18 10:04:44 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 10:04:44 -0500 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> We have cases of new 360KB floppies, and a few boxes of new 1.2MB floppies left. Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:22 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Btw, anyone have any blank 5.25" floppies kicking around? ;) > Contact Athana. New media and their service is _excellent_. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6251 - Release Date: 04/17/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6251 - Release Date: 04/17/13 From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 10:05:07 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 11:05:07 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> On Apr 18, 2013, at 10:16 AM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb wrote: >>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >>>> >>>> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >>>> >>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to. >> >> Come on over! >> > So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely, I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping. - Dave From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 18 10:36:48 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 10:36:48 -0500 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> Message-ID: <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> We have an IBM 3270, as well as several of the IRMA 3270. I can test the 3270 machine, but I don't know how to test the 3270 cards. They are LONG ISA boards. Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:46 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Public mainframe system >> >> That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or >> whatever it's for) to one of those establishment controllers. > > I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them? > Cory, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3270_emulator Here's another link you might find interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270_PC The 5160 I got MAY have had the special video and interface boards in it, but I can't recall at the moment. g. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6251 - Release Date: 04/17/13 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 18 10:52:11 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 10:52:11 -0500 Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? (was: Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past?) In-Reply-To: <516FFE9F.9010003@telegraphics.com.au> References: <516FFE9F.9010003@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201304181552.r3IFqfZU075828@mx1.ezwind.net> At 09:09 AM 4/18/2013, Toby Thain wrote: >Coincidentally, I found this in my inbox today. > http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/save-small-gauge-film >Their scanner sounds like the cat's pajamas. So he wants other people to pay for a high-end scanner for his business, because he promises to rescue old footage? - John From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 11:02:53 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:02:53 -0400 Subject: Sights in NYC? Message-ID: I'll be taking an extended trip to NYC next week - are there any retrocomputing related sights to see? Museum installations or whatnot? From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Apr 18 11:10:45 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 16:10:45 +0000 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> <20130417185242.F63055@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D92FD7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 7:25 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Public mainframe system > > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Gene has put together the cockpit. > > It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc. > > That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad enough at > me as it is. :) > > g. I figure when you install the air-to-air missiles is when they really get unhappy. -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Apr 18 11:14:35 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 16:14:35 +0000 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516FB010.4010303@xs4all.nl> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D92905@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <516FB010.4010303@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D92FF1@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of MG > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:34 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Public mainframe system > > On 18-apr-2013 1:52, Ian King wrote: > >> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have > >> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and > >> much more, to just mention a few. > >> > > > > What fun is that? Totalitarian approaches to repress creativity, I say. > > ITS, anyone? -- Ian > > What is fun about getting a false sense of freedom? > > Also, "repress creativity"? At least in a totalitarian system, you know what > you can and can't do. So, you can actually do something and be truly > creative, albeit within the bounds of those limitations. > > - MG You really took my frivolous comment seriously? Whoa. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 18 11:15:55 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:15:55 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51701C3B.7060504@neurotica.com> On 04/18/2013 11:05 AM, David Riley wrote: >>>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to. >>> >>> Come on over! >>> >> So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) > > Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely, > I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he > drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping. My friend (another Dave) and I, when he was about 21 and I was maybe 17, used to joke about selling organs to buy DEUNA cards for our PDP-11s, and run coax down the highway (Route 95). We lived about 20mi apart, me in NJ and he in PA. We joked about a telco truck pulling over, one guy picking up the cable, and saying to his work partner, "Hey Bob? This ours?" -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 18 11:24:40 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:24:40 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> Message-ID: <51701E48.9050606@neurotica.com> On 04/18/2013 11:36 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > We have an IBM 3270, as well as several of the IRMA 3270. I can test the > 3270 machine, Do you mean a "3270 PC" (aka IBM model 5271), or something else? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 18 11:26:22 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:26:22 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> Message-ID: <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> On 04/18/2013 02:42 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> The 3270 hardware protocol uses coaxial cables and BNC connectors. >> Upstream from terminals and printers are usually found "establishment >> controllers", like 3174s, etc. They connect to a host (mainframe) via either >> a LAN connection (Ethernet or token ring), serial bisync over a modem or >> direct connection, parallel channel (an older high-speed IBM mainframe >> controller interface), or some other method. > > Interesting architecture! Yes. Very scalable, and very flexible. >> That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever >> it's for) to one of those establishment controllers. > > I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them? Like other application-specific boards, they usually came with a driver disk and likely a 3270-ish terminal program. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 18 11:26:20 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 18, 2013, at 10:16 AM, geneb wrote: > >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb wrote: >>>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>>>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >>>>> >>>>> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >>>>> >>>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to. >>> >>> Come on over! >>> >> So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) > > Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely, > I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he > drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping. > Hrm. Inspired this: Mount BNC connectors to the ends of a pair of cleaned out soup cans and hot glue a long bit of string between them. (glue string to solder cup of the center pin on the BNC connector). Put in a glass-faced case with a sign that reads "In Case of Network Failure, Break Glass". I may just have to build one. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 18 11:26:31 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: <1189021599-1366246356-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-576134137-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <516F6580.2070508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130418092600.G76096@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: > A young relative was bitterly disappointed(sp) to find out that a CAT scan > didn't involve being covered with cats. Frankly, I liked his idea better > than the reality of it. :) even I can hear SOMETHING moving around inside the machine From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 18 11:28:37 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:28:37 -0400 Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? In-Reply-To: <201304181552.r3IFqfZU075828@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <516FFE9F.9010003@telegraphics.com.au> <201304181552.r3IFqfZU075828@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <51701F35.7090109@neurotica.com> On 04/18/2013 11:52 AM, John Foust wrote: >> Coincidentally, I found this in my inbox today. >> http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/save-small-gauge-film >> Their scanner sounds like the cat's pajamas. > > So he wants other people to pay for a high-end scanner for his business, > because he promises to rescue old footage? Far, far stranger things have gotten huge amounts of money via those types of campaigns. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Apr 18 11:33:45 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <201304180121.r3I1LJKE087891@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201304171853.r3HIrAkn044514@mx1.ezwind.net> <201304171959.PAA01630@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201304180121.r3I1LJKE087891@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201304181633.MAA15470@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Loan processing software [...] doesn't really "process". Okay, this is clearly being used as a technical term with relatively restricted meaning (I can't see how processing software could be said to not process otherwise, unless perhaps it were Just Plain Broken), so most of what I said on the subject does not actually apply. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 11:33:58 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:33:58 -0700 Subject: What are these Tektronix paper rolls? (8.5-inch wide, 3.25-inch diameter) Message-ID: I have some boxes of Tektronix paper rolls and I have no idea where they were used. The rolls are 8.5-inches wide and have a diameter of 3.25-inches. They are packed 6 to a box and I have around six boxes of these which are all sealed except for one. I can't find any obvious part numbers anywhere. The boxes say Made in Japan and have JAL Cargo stickers on them and were shipped to PDX. These might date back to somewhere in the 1980's. They came along with some Tektronix 4170 systems I picked up a while back. Anyone know what equipment would have used these rolls? Are they most likely thermal, or something else? Anyone have a use for these? Would they still be suitable for the original application after 25 years? The boxes are a bit heavy if someone has a use for these and wants them. -Glen From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 11:33:31 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 16:33:31 -0000 Subject: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, TeoZ wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cory Smelosky" > To: "Jules Richardson" > Cc: "cctalk" > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:23 PM > Subject: Re: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed > > >> >> I had a dual-PIII server board that had an EISA slot or >> too...unfortunately I binned it when ribbon cables on it caught fire. (I >> still don't know how that happened...it had to have been overvoltage) I >> don't have any EISA systems left at all...my current PII may have one, not >> sure. Another system with EISA is on its way to me. >> > Are you sure they are EISA and not ISA? EISA died out kind of quickly when > PCI came out which was well before the P3 era. > The board could also take PIIs, so i'm not sure...L440GX+ was the board. > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 11:36:40 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 16:36:40 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516FB39E.3060901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, MG wrote: > > On 18-apr-2013 3:19, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> It's much easier to get through the MTS manuals...the commands for it >> actually seem logical and like they weren't written using a spinning >> dartboard and a random number generator. (I know I exaggerated, but MVS >> is a bit strange, you gotta admit that) > > On FanDeZhi I tried MVS, or some variation of it and --- I don't know > if it's the usual incarnation --- but it struck me as being very much > like UNIX? (With a Bourne Shell, of some type, although missing many > things like Curses.) There is a linux...compat layer there it seems. It might even be a UNIX "vm". > > >> The HELP system is useful, too! It's menu driven. It's far, far >> superior to UNIX/Linux man pages. > > It's not bad, but, I personally like the VMS HELP system best of all. > UNIX "man" pages vary, especially between various 'vendors' and also > depending on how you'd like to process (e.g. pipe) them. > I'd agree with VMS' help system being best. > >> Linux man pages are also inferior to BSD man pages...I like man pages on >> all the drivers. ;) > > Linux "man" pages also doesn't always seem to abide to common > formatting rules. Exactly. > > - MG > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 18 11:37:19 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: floppy (was: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed In-Reply-To: <7A26B676-314A-426F-A249-D86311EE1F7B@gewt.net> References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <20130417214415.H66858@shell.lmi.net> <7A26B676-314A-426F-A249-D86311EE1F7B@gewt.net> Message-ID: <20130418092716.N76096@shell.lmi.net> > >> Btw, anyone have any blank 5.25" floppies kicking around? ;) > > Hard sector or soft-sector? > > 300 oersted or 600? (aka "360K" V "1.2M") > > SS V DS, 48tpi V 96tpi V 100tpi, SD V DD are basically issues of testing. On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Not sure yet, System hasn't been delivered yet. I know for sure it's > 1.2M but I'm not sure of the other specifications. I'll respond once I > have the drive. ;) Except for some ridiculously r at re exceptions, "1.2M" is enough information. That is a double sided, double density (MFM), 96tpi (80 track) disk that is usually spun at 360RPM, with a 500Kbits per second data transfer rate. (like an 8" double density) IIRC, NEC used 77 tracks (even more like an 8") Lisa used similar media, but with a special jacket, with an extra access hole to make it easier to put thumbprints on the disk. AMLYN used them, with a special jacket with some extra holes for the "record changer" mechanism. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 11:39:39 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 16:39:39 -0000 Subject: floppy (was: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <20130417214415.H66858@shell.lmi.net> <7A26B676-314A-426F-A249-D86311EE1F7B@gewt.net> <77517081-D062-4BB7-88D7-F626EF674756@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, David Riley wrote: > > On Apr 18, 2013, at 3:11, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: > >> >> >> On 18 Apr 2013, at 00:47, "Fred Cisin" wrote: >> >>> >>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>> Btw, anyone have any blank 5.25" floppies kicking around? ;) >>> >>> Hard sector or soft-sector? >>> >>> 300 oersted or 600? (aka "360K" V "1.2M") >>> SS V DS, 48tpi V 96tpi V 100tpi, SD V DD are basically issues of testing. >> >> Not sure yet, System hasn't been delivered yet. I know for sure it's 1.2M but I'm not sure of the other specifications. I'll respond once I have the drive. ;) > > It's a bog-standard "1.2M" (in the DOS sense) PC drive. I, > uh, think I know the system you're talking about. :-) > ;) > For what it's worth, I just got a box of 5.25" floppies on eBay > for $10 with free shipping. They're generally pretty easy > to find. How many in the box? > > - Dave > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 11:43:46 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 16:43:46 -0000 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? References: <1189021599-1366246356-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-576134137-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <516F6580.2070508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 04/17/2013 08:52 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: >>> Catscan.. >> > A young relative was bitterly disappointed(sp) to find out that a CAT scan > didn't involve being covered with cats. Frankly, I liked his idea better > than the reality of it. :) > I like his idea of it better, too. ;) > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 18 11:44:37 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:44:37 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516EFC1D.4020609@xs4all.nl> <2B47B089-DC0A-4FB3-A46A-001EFA894F4D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <517022F5.7010708@sbcglobal.net> On 04/17/2013 08:49 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:46 PM, MG wrote: >>> On 17-apr-2013 18:37, Dave McGuire wrote: ....... >>>> They throw little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually >>>> because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet. >>> >>> Didn't you threaten me with violence a while back? Not the wisest >>> thing you can do. It's not the 1980s Usenet, it's not an electronic >>> El Dorado. >> >> Ha!! Kiss my ass. > > Hmmm. It sure feels like it's the 1980s/1990s Usenet...i'm sitting at a > VT420 typing on an LK201 with Alpine running on a PII i'm connected to > via LAT from a DECserver. ;) > Nice... Nothing like the appropriate hardware to match the conversation... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 11:50:19 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:50:19 -0400 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > We have cases of new 360KB floppies, and a few boxes of new 1.2MB floppies > left. Someone on the list was lamenting the rarity of 8" floppies - anyone still sell those NIB? 20 years ago, a friend had a PC accessory sales business. He stumbled upon *pallets* of cases of shrink-wrapped 8" floppies for cheap. He picked 2-3 pallets up with the intent of trying to sell them as novelty items including analog clock faces. After several years of essentially zero sales in the early 1990s, he got tired of them taking up floor space and chucked the lot. He saw the future value of them, but couldn't afford to wait around 10+ years for demand to rise. With the fluctuations of of the fortunes of the PC biz, his company didn't survive to the 21st century, so they'd be gone now one way or another, but I do look back at that mountain of media and wish I'd had a climate-controlled place to store them. -ethan From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 18 11:50:28 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:50:28 -0400 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <20130417181206.D63055@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130417181206.D63055@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51702454.5080900@sbcglobal.net> From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 18 11:51:41 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D92FD7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> <20130417185242.F63055@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D92FD7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20130418095035.O76096@shell.lmi.net> > > > Gene has put together the cockpit. > > > It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc. > > That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad enough at > > me as it is. :) On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Ian King wrote: > I figure when you install the air-to-air missiles is when they really > get unhappy. -- Ian In the meantime, just rig up a mechanism to drop Packard Bells From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 18 11:56:02 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:56:02 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <517025A2.2090902@sbcglobal.net> On 04/18/2013 08:14 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Cctalk is the unmoderated list. Cctech cuts out the jibberjabber and > is moderated. I think its Jay West. Yep, it's Jay. And he's watching. Not constantly, but he'd see your message. > -----Original Message----- From: "Rob Jarratt" > Sender: > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 07:01:29 To: > General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Who is the > moderator of this list? > > I would like to discuss some aspects of the management of this list > with the person who has this responsibility. > > Thanks > > Rob > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 18 11:56:36 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:56:36 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516FF188.3000103@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516EF066.3040103@gmail.com> <516EFE43.1060705@sbcglobal.net> <516FF188.3000103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517025C4.1050509@sbcglobal.net> On 04/18/2013 09:13 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> On 04/17/2013 02:56 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks! >>>> >>>> This too shall pass. >>> >>> Sounds painful. >>> >>> Peace... Sridhar >>> >> Shouldn't be too bad. It's only paper. > > Unless it's coins. :> > > Peace... Sridhar > [ouch] -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 12:00:39 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 17:00:39 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <51701C3B.7060504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/18/2013 11:05 AM, David Riley wrote: >>>>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to. >>>> >>>> Come on over! >>>> >>> So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) >> >> Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely, >> I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he >> drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping. > > My friend (another Dave) and I, when he was about 21 and I was maybe 17, > used to joke about selling organs to buy DEUNA cards for our PDP-11s, and run > coax down the highway (Route 95). We lived about 20mi apart, me in NJ and he > in PA. We joked about a telco truck pulling over, one guy picking up the > cable, and saying to his work partner, "Hey Bob? This ours?" > How expensive was a DEUNA? ;) > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 18 12:01:47 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 13:01:47 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <51701C3B.7060504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <517026FB.4090302@neurotica.com> On 04/18/2013 01:00 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>>>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to >>>>>> connect it to. >>>>> >>>>> Come on over! >>>>> >>>> So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) >>> >>> Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely, >>> I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he >>> drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping. >> >> My friend (another Dave) and I, when he was about 21 and I was maybe 17, >> used to joke about selling organs to buy DEUNA cards for our PDP-11s, and run >> coax down the highway (Route 95). We lived about 20mi apart, me in NJ and he >> in PA. We joked about a telco truck pulling over, one guy picking up the >> cable, and saying to his work partner, "Hey Bob? This ours?" > > How expensive was a DEUNA? ;) This was the mid-1980s. They were...expensive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Apr 18 12:05:44 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 13:05:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Cctalk is the unmoderated list. Cctech cuts out the jibberjabber and is mode$ Rob said "management", not "moderator". And, yes, last I recall hearing Jay West was it.... Mouse From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 18 12:07:19 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:07:19 -0500 Subject: Sights in NYC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <027f01ce3c57$2f3cfb30$8db6f190$@com> http://www.familydaysout.com/kids-things-to-do-usa/armonk/ny/museum-gallerie s Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason McBrien Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:03 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Sights in NYC? I'll be taking an extended trip to NYC next week - are there any retrocomputing related sights to see? Museum installations or whatnot? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6251 - Release Date: 04/17/13 From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 12:14:56 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 17:14:56 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/18/2013 02:42 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> The 3270 hardware protocol uses coaxial cables and BNC connectors. >>> Upstream from terminals and printers are usually found "establishment >>> controllers", like 3174s, etc. They connect to a host (mainframe) via either >>> a LAN connection (Ethernet or token ring), serial bisync over a modem or >>> direct connection, parallel channel (an older high-speed IBM mainframe >>> controller interface), or some other method. >> >> Interesting architecture! > > Yes. Very scalable, and very flexible. > Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't help but wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off. >>> That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever >>> it's for) to one of those establishment controllers. >> >> I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them? > > Like other application-specific boards, they usually came with a driver > disk and likely a 3270-ish terminal program. I wonder how they handled the extended keyboard buttons. Did they include a keyboard? ;) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 18 12:17:25 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 13:17:25 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't help but wonder > why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off. I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the RS/6000 world. However...that has nothing at all to do with mainframes. Some of the "baby" development system "mainframes" like the P/390 do use MCA...there's an MCA version of the P/390 card. (that was the first one, the next two were PCI) MCA was really a microcomputers-only bus. >>>> That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever >>>> it's for) to one of those establishment controllers. >>> >>> I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them? >> >> Like other application-specific boards, they usually came with a driver >> disk and likely a 3270-ish terminal program. > > I wonder how they handled the extended keyboard buttons. Did they include a > keyboard? ;) Yes, there was a special keyboard. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Apr 18 12:36:37 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 13:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <5EBBFC12-DF53-4BC8-A266-48542502E8C1@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <5EBBFC12-DF53-4BC8-A266-48542502E8C1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201304181736.NAA16001@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...]. The ATMs, however, don't process account debits and credits. Okay, now I just gotta ask: what is this meaning of "process"? Because, as I understand the word, ATMs do almost nothing else. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 18 12:39:35 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:39:35 -0500 Subject: 3270 In-Reply-To: <51701E48.9050606@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> <51701E48.9050606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <02ca01ce3c5b$b173f460$145bdd20$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:25 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Public mainframe system On 04/18/2013 11:36 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > We have an IBM 3270, as well as several of the IRMA 3270. I can test the > 3270 machine, Do you mean a "3270 PC" (aka IBM model 5271), or something else? -Dave IBM 5271 is correct. It has a 5.25" floppy and a hard drive. Cindy ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6251 - Release Date: 04/17/13 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 12:39:59 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:39:59 +0100 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <51702FEF.6050307@gmail.com> On 18/04/2013 13:14, Sam O'nella wrote: > Cctalk is the unmoderated list. Cctech cuts out the jibberjabber and is moderated. I think its Jay West. > -----Original Message----- > From: "Rob Jarratt" > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 07:01:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? > > I would like to discuss some aspects of the management of this list with the > person who has this responsibility. > > Thanks > > Rob There is a list owner address on the cctalk home page.... From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 18 12:43:01 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:43:01 -0500 Subject: old tape drives, IDE and a few SCSI Message-ID: <02d401ce3c5c$2c3176a0$849463e0$@com> I have a couple of shelves of old IDE and a few SCSI internal tape drives, mostly 40-120mb in capacity. I no longer have the tapes, nor the inclination to test. If you want a list and will pay $10 plus shipping for a drive, please email me a for a list of models and pn. NO GUARANTEES on these old guys! Shipping should be $8-10. Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6251 - Release Date: 04/17/13 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 12:46:26 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:46:26 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> Message-ID: <51703172.8030301@gmail.com> On 18/04/2013 15:46, geneb wrote: >>> >>> That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or >>> whatever >>> it's for) to one of those establishment controllers. >> >> I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them? >> I don't know about IRMA boards but I seem to remember the hardware and software were separate. OS/2 EE did I think come with a 3270 card. For the PC several folks produced software that worked with the cards including IBM, Irma, Attachmate etc. > Cory, see here: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3270_emulator > > Here's another link you might find interesting: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270_PC > > The 5160 I got MAY have had the special video and interface boards in > it, but I can't recall at the moment. > > g. > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 12:52:03 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:52:03 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> On 18/04/2013 16:05, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 18, 2013, at 10:16 AM, geneb wrote: > >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb wrote: >>>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>>>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >>>>> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >>>>> >>>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to. >>> Come on over! >>> >> So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) > Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely, > I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he > drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping. NO NO NO NO NO! RG58 is 50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63.... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Belden-9268-1000-22-AWG-93-Ohm-RG62A-U-Coax-Cable-NEW-/360378528451 You can use 50 Ohm over short distances but the cables should do 1.5 MBits over, think 1500Yds You can also get Baluns to allow you to run it over UTP CAT1 or higher.... > > - Dave > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 13:04:49 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:04:49 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> Message-ID: <517035C1.3060200@gmail.com> On 18/04/2013 16:36, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > We have an IBM 3270, as well as several of the IRMA 3270. I can test the > 3270 machine, but I don't know how to test the 3270 cards. They are LONG > ISA boards. > > Cindy Croxton I have a feeling they came with a replacement IBM Diagnostics disk which had an extra test on for the card. I can't really see many folks wanting one as the real fun is in using a real 3270. If you just want to connect a PC to a mainframe then TN3270 works just fine and is virtually indistinguishable from the use experience side of things. > M > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of geneb > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:46 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Public mainframe system > >>> That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or >>> whatever it's for) to one of those establishment controllers. >> I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them? >> > Cory, see here: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3270_emulator > > Here's another link you might find interesting: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270_PC > > The 5160 I got MAY have had the special video and interface boards in it, > but I can't recall at the moment. > > g. > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6251 - Release Date: 04/17/13 > From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 13:07:31 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:07:31 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <20130418052024.GA13134@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130418052024.GA13134@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <224E0C72-33B8-48C1-A2A6-41D52D2C7189@gmail.com> On Apr 18, 2013, at 1:20 AM, John Wilson wrote: > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 01:28:28PM -0400, Bob Vines wrote: >> Do you recall the vendor's name? I've got several old printers (and >> an ASR-33) that need ribbons. > > Aw man ... according to my bookmarks it was cfriends.com but it's a > cybersquatter now. That's really too bad. > > For what it's worth, I bought an ASR33 ribbon off the shelf at my local > Office Max in the 1990s. Blew my mind, but it was smart of Teletype to use > a very common ribbon size. Both Office Depot and Staples also stock continuous-feed paper (online and in most stores I've been to). If you look hard enough, you can find 14 7/8" wide as well as color bars as well. It's usually sold as "computer paper", but other terms may work for the search. - Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 18 13:15:34 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:15:34 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516F079D.3010009@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <516ED4FE.80807@gewt.net> <516ED95E.3040800@neurotica.com> <021501ce3b9f$54e3b0d0$feab1270$@ntlworld.com> <516F079D.3010009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <02cd01ce3c60$b9e51c50$2daf54f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 17 April 2013 21:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Public mainframe system > > On 04/17/2013 03:11 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >>>>>> *grabs popcorn bowl* > >>>>> > >>>>> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have > >>>>> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and > >>>>> much more, to just mention a few. > >>>> > >>>> I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks > >>>> Windows machines process financial transactions. ;) > >>> > >>> Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile? > >> > >> Did they? They may have but I'm talking about BANKS. > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/Microsoft-Services/Nationwide- > Bui > > lding- > > Society/Delivery-Partner-Helps-Nationwide-Deploy-High-Performing-Faste > > r-Paym > > ents-Service/4000008133 > > I haven't laughed that hard in a LONG time! > Here is another example: http://www.temenos.com/news-and-events/news/2012/bank-sinopac-goes-live-with -temenos-t24-on-microsoft-windows-server-and-sql-server-to-fuel-innovation-a nd-gain-competitive-edge/ > The last time I laughed that hard was when I read about "Microsoft HPC". > :) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 18 13:30:15 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:30:15 -0600 Subject: What are these Tektronix paper rolls? (8.5-inch wide, 3.25-inch diameter) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Glen Slick writes: > Anyone know what equipment would have used these rolls? Are they most > likely thermal, or something else? Anyone have a use for these? Would > they still be suitable for the original application after 25 years? > The boxes are a bit heavy if someone has a use for these and wants > them. They are most likely the special dry-print silver paper that was used in the storage tube copier and video copier products: The paper is only usable in those copiers. The paper is thermally sensitive, but is not usable in typical thermal print-head type printers. The paper is supposed to be stored in cool, dry conditions. Even when new, the paper had a warranted shelf life of something like 18 months. Bob Rosenbloom told me that he used some old paper and did some prints and while the prints came out, they were not high contrast. My plan was to replace this printer with a circuit that obtained the image from the storage tube terminal directly and saved it as a digitized file that you could print on an ordinary printer. I feel this is a better long-term solution than trying to track down paper of dubious utility for the printer. I happen to have a single unopened roll for mine and I haven't bothered trying it, I obtained it mostly for novelty/completeness purposes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 18 13:56:37 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:56:37 -0400 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> Message-ID: <517041E5.1060404@sbcglobal.net> On 04/18/2013 12:50 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > wrote: >> We have cases of new 360KB floppies, and a few boxes of new 1.2MB floppies >> left. > > Someone on the list was lamenting the rarity of 8" floppies - anyone > still sell those NIB? > > 20 years ago, a friend had a PC accessory sales business. He stumbled > upon *pallets* of cases of shrink-wrapped 8" floppies for cheap. He > picked 2-3 pallets up with the intent of trying to sell them as > novelty items including analog clock faces. After several years of > essentially zero sales in the early 1990s, he got tired of them taking > up floor space and chucked the lot. He saw the future value of them, > but couldn't afford to wait around 10+ years for demand to rise. With > the fluctuations of of the fortunes of the PC biz, his company didn't > survive to the 21st century, so they'd be gone now one way or another, > but I do look back at that mountain of media and wish I'd had a > climate-controlled place to store them. > Hind-sight is 20/20, they say..... Too bad we sit on our asses all the time. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 14:00:26 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:00:26 -0000 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? References: <20130417181206.D63055@shell.lmi.net> <51702454.5080900@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <579A8468-5990-4651-B0CB-874FDC7C3CF6@gewt.net> On 18 Apr 2013, at 12:50, "Dave Woyciesjes" wrote: > Is this message blank or did something break here? From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 14:07:43 2013 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:07:43 -0400 Subject: Sights in NYC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Museum of math is not quite computing but is supposed to be great. On Apr 18, 2013 12:33 PM, "Jason McBrien" wrote: > I'll be taking an extended trip to NYC next week - are there any > retrocomputing related sights to see? Museum installations or whatnot? > From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Apr 18 14:20:21 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:20:21 -0400 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> Message-ID: <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> humph,, And I'm sitting on two 20 gallon crates of 8" with CP/M software and data on them and maybe a few new boxes along with a large box of RX01/2 media mostly RT-11. Haven't check them in about 10 years but I bet from the sample of RX02 and the few I use for the NS* 8" floppy system I'd expect they are still good. Same for all the 5" flavors, though generally I found the 1.2MB 5.25 to universally to be with worst for bit rot. For standard 8 and 5.25 stuff I have had few failures. For 3.5 I've had much grief with cheap media shedding to the heads (sometimes the drives fault) and then taking the next disk with it by abrasion. Thankfully I still have 10 boxes of sony (from the late 90s) 720K and a few boxes of TDK and other names from the same period 1.44mb stuff. I use those in my frankenstein Kaypro 4/84 and the AmpoLB+ mostly and also the Epson portable disk (3.5" equipped systems I run often). Once I realized some media was crap, and some drives as well I cleaned house years ago of the junk to trash. Allison On 04/18/2013 12:50 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > wrote: >> We have cases of new 360KB floppies, and a few boxes of new 1.2MB floppies >> left. > Someone on the list was lamenting the rarity of 8" floppies - anyone > still sell those NIB? > > 20 years ago, a friend had a PC accessory sales business. He stumbled > upon *pallets* of cases of shrink-wrapped 8" floppies for cheap. He > picked 2-3 pallets up with the intent of trying to sell them as > novelty items including analog clock faces. After several years of > essentially zero sales in the early 1990s, he got tired of them taking > up floor space and chucked the lot. He saw the future value of them, > but couldn't afford to wait around 10+ years for demand to rise. With > the fluctuations of of the fortunes of the PC biz, his company didn't > survive to the 21st century, so they'd be gone now one way or another, > but I do look back at that mountain of media and wish I'd had a > climate-controlled place to store them. > > -ethan > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Apr 18 14:29:08 2013 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What are these Tektronix paper rolls? (8.5-inch wide, 3.25-inch diameter) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1366313348.95041.YahooMailClassic@web181603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 4/18/13, Glen Slick wrote: > I have some boxes of Tektronix paper > rolls and I have no idea where > they were used.? The rolls are 8.5-inches wide and have > a diameter of > 3.25-inches.? These may be the dry-silver photo paper used in the hardcopy printer for the Tektronix storage tube graphics displayes, e.g., 4010. The stuff supposedly has a short shelf life, so it's likely not any good, but if it is usable, I'm sure there are a few of us who could use it. I have one of the printers and assumed I'd never see any paper for it. --Bill From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 18 14:43:16 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:43:16 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <20130418095035.O76096@shell.lmi.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> <20130417185242.F63055@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D92FD7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130418095035.O76096@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51704CD4.7060800@sbcglobal.net> On 04/18/2013 12:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Gene has put together the cockpit. >>>> It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc. >>> That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad enough at >>> me as it is. :) > On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Ian King wrote: >> I figure when you install the air-to-air missiles is when they really >> get unhappy. -- Ian > > In the meantime, just rig up a mechanism to drop Packard Bells > Now that's just _mean_.... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 15:06:00 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:06:00 -0500 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51705228.8010305@gmail.com> On 04/16/2013 12:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/16/2013 06:27 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: >> I've got my dot-matrix printer yesterday, I tried it today >> its a PANASONIC KX-P1121E[1], I got it from ebay[2] >> i've only tried it on my windows XP system (please shot me :) ) > > Nice! Panasonic makes EXCELLENT impact printers. In a weird bit of synchronicity, I found a KX-P1123E at the dump earlier :-) Missing its top cover, but I think it should be [theoretically] operable without it. The power cord's been lopped off, but that might be as a result of some H+S worry rather than an indication that there's anything actually wrong with it. I don't have any fanfold paper here right now, but I expect I can manually feed some regular paper and at least verify that the print head is functional. cheers Jules From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Apr 18 15:20:54 2013 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 13:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retro lolcats - Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <51700367.2080702@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1366316454.78246.YahooMailClassic@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 4/18/13, Toby Thain wrote: > Meaning there is lots of prior art for Angry Cat. > > http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md8it1QfjL1raw0k5o1_1280.jpg http://i.imgur.com/POCOM.jpg Not angry, but a good reason to be careful with the option switches on UNIX commands - they can have unintended consequences. cat --real fuzzy.1 > /dev/ttyS1 -Ian From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 18 15:23:35 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 22:23:35 +0200 Subject: New hardware project... In-Reply-To: <516F58A9.5010508@neurotica.com> References: <516DC5A6.1060307@neurotica.com> <20130417223922.1f97079c71282abc7ce8e505@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <516F58A9.5010508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130418222335.90b6e4c6d1679895299dc2dd@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:21:29 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > > There are special differential ECL transmitter and receiver > > ICs with build in active termination for this purpose. > What are the characteristics of those terminators? I can't remember. I came across this when I got my logic analyzer 15 years ago. I got it without propes and build my own probes from MC10124 ICs. Most likely I am thinking about / confusing it with the MC10115 / MC10116 line receivers. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 15:28:48 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 20:28:48 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <82792389-43E0-442B-9CD2-85CB5923AA91@gewt.net> On 18 Apr 2013, at 13:17, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't help but wonder >> why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off. > > I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular > for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the > RS/6000 world. How many people outside of IBM cloned it though? It definitely didn't survive as long as PCI. > > However...that has nothing at all to do with mainframes. Some of the > "baby" development system "mainframes" like the P/390 do use MCA...there's an > MCA version of the P/390 card. (that was the first one, the next two were PCI) I thought the architecture was derived from some of the designs IBM implemented for the busses in their mainframes? > > MCA was really a microcomputers-only bus. True. > >>>>> That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever >>>>> it's for) to one of those establishment controllers. >>>> >>>> I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them? >>> >>> Like other application-specific boards, they usually came with a driver >>> disk and likely a 3270-ish terminal program. >> >> I wonder how they handled the extended keyboard buttons. Did they include a >> keyboard? ;) > > Yes, there was a special keyboard. I figured there would have been. Speaking of keyboards?it seems like one of the ones you gave me has failed! Seems to be an issue with its little electronics. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 18 15:28:38 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 13:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I wonder how they handled the extended keyboard buttons. Did they include a >> keyboard? ;) > > Yes, there was a special keyboard. > Unicomp still makes a version of them too: http://pckeyboard.com/page/category/PC122 I love the black design. I must now manufacture an excuse to buy one... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From earl at baugh.org Thu Apr 18 15:49:35 2013 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 16:49:35 -0400 Subject: VCF Southeast this weekend!! Message-ID: For anybody within driving distance of Atlanta this weekend, we have the first VCF Southeast this weekend. You can get info via http://vintage.org/2013/southeast/ or via the Atlanta Historic Computing Society site (http://atlhcs.org/) Directions, etc. are all there. We have a pretty impressive Apple Pop-Up Museum that you begin with (Pop-Up doesn't mean it's made of paper and pops up when you turn the page, but rather that it's here for this weekend, and may "Pop-Up" somewhere else later on..) A chance to see some fairly historic pieces of computer history and hear some interesting speakers... Earl Baugh (AHCS member) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 18 15:55:12 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 21:55:12 +0100 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: 18 April 2013 18:06 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Who is the moderator of this list? > > > Cctalk is the unmoderated list. Cctech cuts out the jibberjabber and > > is mode$ > > Rob said "management", not "moderator". And, yes, last I recall hearing Jay > West was it.... > > Mouse [Rob Jarratt] Yes but I said moderator in the subject line which was incorrect, sorry for that. However I do still want to discuss some problems with the list with person who manages it. Regards Rob From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 15:55:19 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 16:55:19 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <201304181736.NAA16001@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <5EBBFC12-DF53-4BC8-A266-48542502E8C1@neurotica.com> <201304181736.NAA16001@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <6ED39D50-0876-4D17-9B9E-E6AB01A2F422@gmail.com> On Apr 18, 2013, at 1:36 PM, Mouse wrote: >> [...]. The ATMs, however, don't process account debits and credits. > > Okay, now I just gotta ask: what is this meaning of "process"? > Because, as I understand the word, ATMs do almost nothing else. It depends on the meaning of "process". The ATM does the front-end job of shoehorning all the data required for the transaction into a transaction request. Then it schleps it to the mainframe, which does what is typically considered the "processing". The ATM then unpacks the response and displays a human-readable result. There are two levels of processing here. The ATM is obviously doing some sort of processing for the front-end work to make it compatible with humans. But it's not doing anything that involves the bank's customer database; that's the job of the mainframe. It's analogous to a web browser in a lot of ways. More so if you consider only non-Javascript stuff, though ATMs these days certainly have a lot more going on on the front end (like check scanning) than they used to. In any case, while you could consider what a simple web browser does to be "processing", in that model the server does most of the heavy lifting, especially when you're talking about CGI type applications. I suppose it comes down to colloquialisms. - Dave From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 18 16:00:54 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 23:00:54 +0200 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130418230054.1b624087d192194cbffe709b@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 08:07:44 +0200 (CEST) "Arno Kletzander" wrote: > > > The only thing I 'own' thet I don't fix myself is my cat :-) > > > > Yeah, manufacturers don't exactly release schematics for those. :) > > But they've been around for so long that others have traced them > out and released in book form. Heck, they're even giving lessons > about them. It's called "anatomy" though :) I hope they did this reverse engineering by post mortem analysis. ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Apr 18 16:13:08 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 21:13:08 +0000 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D932C3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:17 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Public mainframe system > > On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't help but > > wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off. > > I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular for a > long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the > RS/6000 world. > > However...that has nothing at all to do with mainframes. Some of the > "baby" development system "mainframes" like the P/390 do use > MCA...there's an MCA version of the P/390 card. (that was the first one, the > next two were PCI) > > MCA was really a microcomputers-only bus. > ISTR that they also overreacted to their blunder on the ISA bus (they reserved no licensing rights) and overcompensated by demanding huge fees to license MCA. Third parties said, no thanks.... -- Ian From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 16:13:21 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 17:13:21 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> On Apr 18, 2013, at 1:52 PM, Dave wrote: > On 18/04/2013 16:05, David Riley wrote: >> On Apr 18, 2013, at 10:16 AM, geneb wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to. >>>> Come on over! >>>> >>> So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) >> Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely, >> I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he >> drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping. > NO NO NO NO NO! RG58 is 50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63.... What's the BNC for, then? As far as I knew, they only made 50 and 75-ohm BNC jacks. Or did they just use 75 ohm ones and hope the brief blip on the TDR didn't do too much to the signal? - Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 18 14:59:38 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 20:59:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: computing the old way In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Apr 17, 13 02:58:13 pm Message-ID: > > HOW DOES A CD-ROM DRIVE SPONTANEOUSLY FAIL?! > > Out of the different cdrom drives I've disassembled... dust and dirt, > faulty solder joints, bad electrolytics, failed laser diodes, and poor > quality leaf switches. The leaf switch issue was particularly fun as I had Bad motors, spindel and pickup-moving are another common problem. Those motors are really cheaply made and look like the sort of thing you'd find in a toy. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 18 15:23:31 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 21:23:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: H780 power supply In-Reply-To: <20130417181451.W63055@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 17, 13 06:17:11 pm Message-ID: > About three decades ago, I designed a spell checking program with > heuristically developed lexicon. > 'course when you switch to another set of mnemonics that you haven't used > before, it would call your attention to each. I have no problem with a machien claleing attention to a possible error (in this case, that it can't find the word in its dictionary). I do have a problem if it chaged 'LDA' into 'Lad', 'muClk' into 'mulch' and so on without telling me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 18 15:28:26 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 21:28:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <516F4C23.9050309@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 17, 13 06:28:03 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/17/2013 12:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Teh 700 is perhaps not _quite_ so solid. It's a Daiblo 630 chassis fitted > > with a dot matrix head. And the cover is plastic. But it's still a lot > > better than soem I could name. > > Diablo also had a dot-matrix printer. Heavy, tractor-feed, insanely > noisy--used a couple of Rockwell MCUs. I don't recall the model number. > I used one for a couple of years and have never seen another. The Sanders 700 is clerly a Diablo 630 chassi (there are unused mounting holes, etc for the daiswheey mechanism) with Sanders electroncs/ The printhead bits in place of the daisywheel motor, etc, it plugs into an edge conenctor o nthe cariage. On the PCB for the printhead is a little PROM that otnaisn the timing characteristings of that head (in the older 12/7 modelk, that PROM was on one of the circuit boards, it had a label on it carryign the serial numebr of the head, you had to replace it if you repalced the head). Under the removeable cover, in front of the carriage, are 6 slots for the font cartridges. The cartridges each cotnain a couple of EPROMs. THe electroncs is based round a pair of Z8s (character input and mechanism control) and a Z80 (comamnd procesing). -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 18 16:23:44 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 17:23:44 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <201304181736.NAA16001@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <5EBBFC12-DF53-4BC8-A266-48542502E8C1@neurotica.com> <201304181736.NAA16001@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <51706460.5000404@neurotica.com> On 04/18/2013 01:36 PM, Mouse wrote: >> [...]. The ATMs, however, don't process account debits and credits. > > Okay, now I just gotta ask: what is this meaning of "process"? > Because, as I understand the word, ATMs do almost nothing else. Good heavens. PROCESS THE TRANSACTIONS. Debit this account, credit that account, calculate the balance, subtract the fees, calculate the interest, etc etc etc. [boggle] -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 18 16:30:20 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <517035C1.3060200@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> <517035C1.3060200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Dave wrote: > On 18/04/2013 16:36, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >> We have an IBM 3270, as well as several of the IRMA 3270. I can test the >> 3270 machine, but I don't know how to test the 3270 cards. They are LONG >> ISA boards. >> >> Cindy Croxton > > I have a feeling they came with a replacement IBM Diagnostics disk which had > an extra test on for the card. I can't really see many folks wanting one as > the real fun is in using a real 3270. If you just want to connect a PC to a > mainframe then TN3270 works just fine and is virtually indistinguishable from > the use experience side of things. The hard part (at least from my standpoint) is getting your hands on the IBM mainframe to begin with. I recently saw pictures on the VCF of a 3270 keyboard a guy had (or was in the process of) hacking to work on a PC. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 16:40:55 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:40:55 -0700 Subject: What are these Tektronix paper rolls? (8.5-inch wide, 3.25-inch diameter) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Glen Slick writes: > >> Anyone know what equipment would have used these rolls? Are they most >> likely thermal, or something else? Anyone have a use for these? Would >> they still be suitable for the original application after 25 years? >> The boxes are a bit heavy if someone has a use for these and wants >> them. > > They are most likely the special dry-print silver paper that was used > in the storage tube copier and video copier products: > > Thanks Richard, I figure you would be a good source of info. I took a quick look at those manuals. The photos show a cassette assembly which appears to be larger than the 3.25-inch diameter rolls that I have, plus it looks like the paper is contained inside a metallic cassette and the manual mentions a metallic light seal strip. I haven't unwrapped one of the rolls I have yet but they appear to be simply paper rolls without any sort of cassette container. -Glen From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 16:49:44 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 22:49:44 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51706A78.5090803@gmail.com> On 18/04/2013 18:17, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't help but wonder >> why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off. I think it hast at least something to do with the fact whilst the XT and AT buses were licence free, IBM wanted to retain control of MCA and so charged a license fee. So for workstations there was still AT/ISA bus which was free, and for most things you didn't need the speed of MCA. Servers was a different ball games, but most of the other server makers apart from NCR went with EISA to avoid IBMs control. Then there was the cludge that was VESA for workstations that needed more speed.... Lastly PCI in its various variants.... > I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular > for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the > RS/6000 world. > > However...that has nothing at all to do with mainframes. Some of the > "baby" development system "mainframes" like the P/390 do use MCA...there's an > MCA version of the P/390 card. (that was the first one, the next two were PCI) > > MCA was really a microcomputers-only bus. > >>>>> That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever >>>>> it's for) to one of those establishment controllers. >>>> I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them? >>> Like other application-specific boards, they usually came with a driver >>> disk and likely a 3270-ish terminal program. >> I wonder how they handled the extended keyboard buttons. Did they include a >> keyboard? ;)e > Yes, there was a special keyboard. > > -Dave > From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 16:51:52 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 21:51:52 +0000 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1343127341-1366321913-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1183096047-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Crap. Better mark the rg58 as "return to sender". -----Original Message----- From: Dave Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:52:03 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Public mainframe system On 18/04/2013 16:05, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 18, 2013, at 10:16 AM, geneb wrote: > >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb wrote: >>>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>>>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. >>>>> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client" >>>>> >>>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to. >>> Come on over! >>> >> So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) > Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely, > I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he > drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping. NO NO NO NO NO! RG58 is 50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63.... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Belden-9268-1000-22-AWG-93-Ohm-RG62A-U-Coax-Cable-NEW-/360378528451 You can use 50 Ohm over short distances but the cables should do 1.5 MBits over, think 1500Yds You can also get Baluns to allow you to run it over UTP CAT1 or higher.... > > - Dave > > From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 16:54:23 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 21:54:23 +0000 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: <517041E5.1060404@sbcglobal.net> References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <517041E5.1060404@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <534622977-1366322065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242559149-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Asses or assets? The problem with the floppies I think is even "nos" or cib or used the oxide can still flake off in your drive so its sorta a risk either way. -----Original Message----- From: Dave Woyciesjes Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:56:37 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: floppies On 04/18/2013 12:50 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > wrote: >> We have cases of new 360KB floppies, and a few boxes of new 1.2MB floppies >> left. > > Someone on the list was lamenting the rarity of 8" floppies - anyone > still sell those NIB? > > 20 years ago, a friend had a PC accessory sales business. He stumbled > upon *pallets* of cases of shrink-wrapped 8" floppies for cheap. He > picked 2-3 pallets up with the intent of trying to sell them as > novelty items including analog clock faces. After several years of > essentially zero sales in the early 1990s, he got tired of them taking > up floor space and chucked the lot. He saw the future value of them, > but couldn't afford to wait around 10+ years for demand to rise. With > the fluctuations of of the fortunes of the PC biz, his company didn't > survive to the 21st century, so they'd be gone now one way or another, > but I do look back at that mountain of media and wish I'd had a > climate-controlled place to store them. > Hind-sight is 20/20, they say..... Too bad we sit on our asses all the time. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca Thu Apr 18 17:00:34 2013 From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (Thomas Dzubin) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-11 software designer job. yes, in 2013! Message-ID: I had to check my calendar to make sure I didn't go back in time Here's a job advertisement for a "Senior PDP-11 Software Designer" http://jobs.itworldcanada.com/Jobs/Ggnt_nt-yM0A2pqNiGCgnQ==/Senior-PDP-11-Software-Designer-Permanent-Peterborough-ON This would be my dream job if I was single and unattached... I'd move to Peterborough in a heartbeat. ...sigh... ---------------------- Thomas PDP-11 Dzubin Calgary, Saskatoon, or Vancouver CANADA From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 18 17:02:41 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 17:02:41 -0500 Subject: Novell and DOS drivers Message-ID: <049001ce3c80$72b75120$5825f360$@com> I just sold a gent an old combo card, and he needed me to send him DOS/Novell drivers. I found this page, and thought it might be of interest to some. http://www.veder.com/nwdsk/ Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6251 - Release Date: 04/17/13 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 18 17:03:10 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:03:10 -0400 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <579A8468-5990-4651-B0CB-874FDC7C3CF6@gewt.net> References: <20130417181206.D63055@shell.lmi.net> <51702454.5080900@sbcglobal.net> <579A8468-5990-4651-B0CB-874FDC7C3CF6@gewt.net> Message-ID: <51706D9E.4080904@sbcglobal.net> On 04/18/2013 03:00 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > > On 18 Apr 2013, at 12:50, "Dave Woyciesjes" wrote: > >> > > Is this message blank or did something break here? > Uh, something broke? Lemme look in Sent.... Yep, blank message there... And I have no idea what it may have been in response too -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From bobvines00 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 17:40:59 2013 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:40:59 -0400 Subject: Another Online Source for Diskettes Message-ID: >>>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>>> Btw, anyone have any blank 5.25" floppies kicking around? ;) For another source of diskettes, I've had good luck recently (end of last year) ordering from http://floppydisk.com/. It was a test buy of ten 5.25-inch hubless diskettes for $10 + s&h to format for use with DECmates by using a mix of old software, PCs, & TEAC drives. Health issues put that project on hold unfortunately. :( Floppydisk.com has 3.5-, 5.25-, and (at the time and maybe still) 8-inch diskettes with all of the standard storage capacities. Bulk purchases, obviously, reduce the cost per diskette. [I have no business relationship with them -- I'm just a happy customer.] Bob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 18 17:47:26 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 16:47:26 -0600 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <51704CD4.7060800@sbcglobal.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> <20130417185242.F63055@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D92FD7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130418095035.O76096@shell.lmi.net> <51704CD4.7060800@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <517077FE.7030404@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/18/2013 1:43 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 04/18/2013 12:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> Gene has put together the cockpit. >>>>> It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc. >>>> That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad >>>> enough at >>>> me as it is. :) >> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Ian King wrote: >>> I figure when you install the air-to-air missiles is when they really >>> get unhappy. -- Ian >> >> In the meantime, just rig up a mechanism to drop Packard Bells > > Now that's just _mean_.... > This is mean: Save Ducks, shoot a flying Bell today. :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 18 18:02:34 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:02:34 -0400 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <51705228.8010305@gmail.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <51705228.8010305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <620CBC24-12DC-4F3B-8DE5-EC81E2283274@neurotica.com> On Apr 18, 2013, at 4:06 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/16/2013 12:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 04/16/2013 06:27 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: >>> I've got my dot-matrix printer yesterday, I tried it today >>> its a PANASONIC KX-P1121E[1], I got it from ebay[2] >>> i've only tried it on my windows XP system (please shot me :) ) >> >> Nice! Panasonic makes EXCELLENT impact printers. > > In a weird bit of synchronicity, I found a KX-P1123E at the dump earlier :-) Missing its top cover, but I think it should be [theoretically] operable without it. The power cord's been lopped off, but that might be as a result of some H+S worry rather than an indication that there's anything actually wrong with it. > > I don't have any fanfold paper here right now, but I expect I can manually feed some regular paper and at least verify that the print head is functional. Good rescue! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Thu Apr 18 18:05:29 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 16:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <51705228.8010305@gmail.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <51705228.8010305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1366326329.46750.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jules Richardson > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: > Sent: Friday, 19 April 2013 6:06 AM > Subject: Re: got my dot-matrix printer > > On 04/16/2013 12:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 04/16/2013 06:27 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: >>> I've got my dot-matrix printer yesterday, I tried it today >>> its a PANASONIC KX-P1121E[1], I got it from ebay[2] >>> i've only tried it on my windows XP system (please shot me :) ) >> >> ? ? Nice!? Panasonic makes EXCELLENT impact printers. > > In a weird bit of synchronicity, I found a KX-P1123E at the dump earlier :-) > Missing its top cover, but I think it should be [theoretically] operable without > it. The power cord's been lopped off, but that might be as a result of some > H+S worry rather than an indication that there's anything actually wrong > with it. > > I don't have any fanfold paper here right now, but I expect I can manually > feed some regular paper and at least verify that the print head is functional. yes, here are some instructions @ http://www.nefec.org/upm/printers/mpa13.htm > > cheers > > Jules tom From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 18:12:58 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 23:12:58 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1D94B096-0503-4FA2-A45C-B9C1F9857B07@gewt.net> On 18 Apr 2013, at 16:28, "geneb" wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> I wonder how they handled the extended keyboard buttons. Did they include a >>> keyboard? ;) >> >> Yes, there was a special keyboard. >> > Unicomp still makes a version of them too: > http://pckeyboard.com/page/category/PC122 > > I love the black design. I must now manufacture an excuse to buy one? Paperweight should suffice as an excuse. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 18:31:16 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 23:31:16 -0000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> On 18 Apr 2013, at 16:55, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse >> Sent: 18 April 2013 18:06 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Who is the moderator of this list? >> >>> Cctalk is the unmoderated list. Cctech cuts out the jibberjabber and >>> is mode$ >> >> Rob said "management", not "moderator". And, yes, last I recall hearing > Jay >> West was it.... >> >> Mouse > [Rob Jarratt] > > Yes but I said moderator in the subject line which was incorrect, sorry for > that. However I do still want to discuss some problems with the list with > person who manages it. Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? > > Regards > > Rob > From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Apr 18 18:35:08 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:35:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: <51705228.8010305@gmail.com> References: <1366108043.65137.YahooMailNeo@web142504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <516D8DFB.4030009@neurotica.com> <51705228.8010305@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/16/2013 12:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 04/16/2013 06:27 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: >> >>> I've got my dot-matrix printer yesterday, I tried it today its a >>> PANASONIC KX-P1121E[1], I got it from ebay[2] i've only tried it on my >>> windows XP system (please shot me :) ) >> >> Nice! Panasonic makes EXCELLENT impact printers. > > In a weird bit of synchronicity, I found a KX-P1123E at the dump earlier > :-) Missing its top cover, but I think it should be [theoretically] > operable without it. The power cord's been lopped off, but that might be > as a result of some H+S worry rather than an indication that there's > anything actually wrong with it. > > I don't have any fanfold paper here right now, but I expect I can > manually feed some regular paper and at least verify that the print head > is functional. The power supply in these printers is very simple, so even if it isn't working it shouldn't be that hard to repair. With the US versions of these printers at least, they just used a plain 3-conductor flat cord with a NEMA 5-15P plug. Unlike a lot of the later inkjet printers, these printers don't have a safety switch for the top cover, and while they will work without one, they will be much, much louder. Which side of the pond are you on? There is a chance I might still have a top cover in my box of printer plastics that would work, but I may have already given them all away (I had several extras at one time). I used to get a box of this sort of stuff at the end of each of the university auctions. Both the uni and auction company loved it because they didn't have to get someone else to throw this stuff out or haul it to the dump. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Apr 18 18:46:42 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:46:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <82792389-43E0-442B-9CD2-85CB5923AA91@gewt.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> <82792389-43E0-442B-9CD2-85CB5923AA91@gewt.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On 18 Apr 2013, at 13:17, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >> On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> >>> Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't help but >>> wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off. >> >> I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very >> popular for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was >> also big in the RS/6000 world. > > How many people outside of IBM cloned it though? It definitely didn't > survive as long as PCI. Cloned or made boards for it? There were a few 3rd party motherboard manufacturers that licensed MCA, but I don't remember their names offhand. As far as board manufacturers go (some licensed, some not), that I know of included 3Com, Western Digital, SMC, Adaptec, Corel (SCSI boards, I still have one), BusTek/BusLogic(Mylex), DPT, Kingston Technology... FWIW, both PCI and ISA are /still/ very popular for industrial / single board (backplane) computers that are often used in mission critical applications. I can't say I've seen either MCA or EISA used in anything lately though. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 18 18:53:30 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:53:30 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <82792389-43E0-442B-9CD2-85CB5923AA91@gewt.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> <82792389-43E0-442B-9CD2-85CB5923AA91@gewt.net> Message-ID: <5170877A.5070009@neurotica.com> On 04/18/2013 04:28 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't >>> help but wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market >>> never took off. >> >> I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very >> popular for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It >> was also big in the RS/6000 world. > > How many people outside of IBM cloned it though? It definitely > didn't survive as long as PCI. "Cloned" it? Almost noone, as IBM aggressively pursued those who did. Lots of companies *licensed* it legitimately and made boards. No, it was nowhere near as popular as PCI in absolute terms, but adjusted for the number of companies making "boards for desktop computers", as well as the number of small computers produced increasing over time, it was by no means a commercial failure...not by any stretch. >> However...that has nothing at all to do with mainframes. Some of >> the "baby" development system "mainframes" like the P/390 do use >> MCA...there's an MCA version of the P/390 card. (that was the >> first one, the next two were PCI) > > I thought the architecture was derived from some of the designs IBM > implemented for the busses in their mainframes? Not really, no. Most mainframes didn't have a bus per se, until comparatively recently. > Speaking of keyboards?it seems like one of the ones you gave me has > failed! Seems to be an issue with its little electronics. That figures. I have more; I'll put some in your pile. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 18:55:21 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:55:21 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D932C3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D932C3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <0CA7F068-F213-49B5-BFE0-165399A75B89@gmail.com> On Apr 18, 2013, at 5:13 PM, Ian King wrote: >> On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't help but >>> wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off. >> >> I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular for a >> long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the >> RS/6000 world. >> > ISTR that they also overreacted to their blunder on the ISA bus (they reserved no licensing rights) and overcompensated by demanding huge fees to license MCA. Third parties said, no thanks.... -- Ian ISTR DEC did the same dumb thing with VAXBI. Possibly XMI as well? - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 18 19:01:28 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 20:01:28 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51708958.6040101@neurotica.com> On 04/18/2013 05:13 PM, David Riley wrote: >> NO NO NO NO NO! RG58 is 50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63.... > > What's the BNC for, then? As far as I knew, they only made > 50 and 75-ohm BNC jacks. Or did they just use 75 ohm ones > and hope the brief blip on the TDR didn't do too much to > the signal? All 3270 stuff uses BNC connectors. I don't know offhand which impedance of BNCs they use (they look like 50-ohm to me) but at those frequencies, a few MHz, the impedance bump really is minimal. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 19:16:49 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 00:16:49 -0000 Subject: H780 power supply References: <20130417181451.W63055@shell.lmi.net> <> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > >> About three decades ago, I designed a spell checking program with >> heuristically developed lexicon. >> 'course when you switch to another set of mnemonics that you haven't used >> before, it would call your attention to each. > > I have no problem with a machien claleing attention to a possible error > (in this case, that it can't find the word in its dictionary). I do have > a problem if it chaged 'LDA' into 'Lad', 'muClk' into 'mulch' and so on > without telling me. > I run in to that issue when my name gets changed to "Cory Smells"...sometimes I skim when checking for spelling errors and I don't expect my name to be changed without asking me. ;) > -tony > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Thu Apr 18 19:31:06 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 20:31:06 -0400 Subject: Available S-100 PCBs Message-ID: <000001ce3c95$3b137e50$b13a7af0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi, an update on available S-100 board PCBs Good news!? There are several new and reordered S-100 PCBs available! The S-100 68K CPU boards finally came in so there are about 5 available. There are 25 of the S-100 IDE V2 reorder PCBs and 6 of the new S-100 bus terminator/prototyping board PCBs. There are 4 of the S-100 LAVA PCBs available. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/68000%20Board/68K%20CPU%20Board .htm http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/IDE%20Board/My%20IDE%20Card.htm http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20bus%20t erminator http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm The S-100 PCBs cost the same as before ($20 each).? However due to unforeseen extreme price increases in shipping by USPS I am forced to change shipping costs. Shipping in the US will be $3 for a single PCB and $2 for each additional PCB.? Shipping internationally will be $10 for a single PCB and $3 for each additional PCB.? This is for the bare basics USPS first class postage with no tracking or insurance.? The builder assumes all risk of delivery as per usual arrangement. I apologize for the large price increase on shipping but this is out of my hands.? The USPS is in dire financial trouble and is raising prices on shipping.? It affects us all and is most unfortunate.? These boards are provided "at cost" so there is no margin to absorb any shipping price increases.? I have to pass them along. If you would like one or more S-100 PCBs please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, if you would like to help out this all-volunteer project please get one or more of the S-100 LAVA PCBs. These PCBs are the oldest ones and them sitting around on a shelf does no one any good. I?d like these to go to a hobbyist who would get some enjoyment from these fun to build and use boards. Thanks in advance. I truly appreciate everyone's support in moving these remaining boards. You make this hobbyist home brew project possible. From jws at jwsss.com Thu Apr 18 19:47:09 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 17:47:09 -0700 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <51706460.5000404@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <5EBBFC12-DF53-4BC8-A266-48542502E8C1@neurotica.com> <201304181736.NAA16001@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <51706460.5000404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5170940D.8010101@jwsss.com> On 4/18/2013 2:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/18/2013 01:36 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> [...]. The ATMs, however, don't process account debits and credits. >> Okay, now I just gotta ask: what is this meaning of "process"? >> Because, as I understand the word, ATMs do almost nothing else. > Good heavens. > > PROCESS THE TRANSACTIONS. Debit this account, credit that account, > calculate the balance, subtract the fees, calculate the interest, etc etc > etc. [boggle] > > -Dave > If you make the example being at one bank, and having no security, or other safeguards. There are steps to verify remote balances, security in all the data exchanges, pin verification, just to name a few things that go beyond the basic list of actions here. There is usually a posting against the account for debit / withdrawals depending on the nature of the transaction as well, if you go outsides the bounds of ATM operations. Then it gets all hinked up into the Verifone pad and all that crap, doing a verification or hold on the account, then posting a results. Lots of transactions and in the case of just a withdrawal from a non accountholding bank you have to also do it quickly for an ATM, as the human can't be bothered to hang around a long time. the debit card transactions are done by distributed processing and it has been recently demonstrated that the distribution introduces about a 10 minute latency in syncing data, so the transactions are no longer atomic, but can be scammed to produce fraud with swiped cards. and on and on. Late in the day, just had to make this thread one or two longer. From david at hheng.plus.com Wed Apr 17 18:13:21 2013 From: david at hheng.plus.com (David Humphries) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 00:13:21 +0100 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer References: Message-ID: <001b01ce3bc1$27a25500$0c03a8c0@HHE8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Vines" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:28 PM Subject: Re: got my dot-matrix printer >> Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:11:36 -0400 >> From: John Wilson > >> Subject: Re: got my dot-matrix printer > [snip] >> Last time I looked there was at least one vendor online still selling >> brand-new bulk ribbon (for you to wind yourself onto the old spools) so >> there's still a fallback for TTYs or LA30s/LA36s/LA120s/etc. when the >> ribbons finally get too tattered to re-ink. >> >> John Wilson >> D Bit > > Do you recall the vendor's name? I've got several old printers (and > an ASR-33) that need ribbons. > > > Thanks, > > Bob > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3162/5750 - Release Date: 04/17/13 > I just got a ribbon for myASR33 in the uk via ebay Catherine at SMCO.CO.UK is the contact email , dont know if thay wil ship to the states though Dave From amh at POBOX.COM Wed Apr 17 18:32:03 2013 From: amh at POBOX.COM (Andrew Hoerter) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 19:32:03 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516F0560.8080006@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516F0560.8080006@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 4:26 PM, mc68010 wrote: I just looked through their rules and they are pretty hard core. They are > pretty clear nobody should use the system to learn zos and should have > training before you use the system. Looks like the ban people without mercy > and very quickly too. Doesn't look like the place to casually go and check > out zos. > I noticed the same thing and was a bit disappointed. On the other hand -- their system, their rules. I guess there's always Hercules and ancient versions of MVS to bootstrap a little experience with the basics. -Andy From shutchman at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 19:36:31 2013 From: shutchman at gmail.com (Hutch) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:36:31 -0400 Subject: New hardware project... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am sure you are correct. I will try to find that schematic of the frame buffer card, and see what resistors were used on the ECL source end. Now you have me wanting to put that long cable back on with the correct termination! On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I used the same cable that was originally connected to the original CRT > > monitor. The cable was at least 6 foot long, straight through DB9 on both > > ends. I was getting blurring and ghosting on the VGA monitor using this > > That is a classic sign of reflections o nthe cable caused by incorrect or > missing termination. > > My guess is that the adpater input is untermianted and that adding > termination resistors would have improved things. > > -tony > -- e-? From rwiker at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 23:55:18 2013 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 06:55:18 +0200 Subject: H780 power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <836265A7-524F-48C5-A860-05DFDFE504B1@gmail.com> On Apr 17, 2013, at 21:42 , Tony Duell wrote: > As an aside, One 'famous' autocorrect (which may not actually have > happeend) was that 'Dear Sir or Madam' (standard opening for a letter) > became 'Dear Sir or Madman' Two autocorrects (or spell correction suggestions) that really *did* happen were Ericsson Telecom -> Erection Talcum whitehouse -> whorehouse From david at hheng.plus.com Thu Apr 18 06:05:01 2013 From: david at hheng.plus.com (David Humphries) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:05:01 +0100 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer References: Message-ID: <000701ce3c24$92f768a0$0c03a8c0@HHE8> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 8:53 PM Subject: Re: got my dot-matrix printer >> >> Those are good printers. Those and epsons were good consumer grade >> printers. Citizen on the other hand... Ugh! > > I'll stick to my pair of Sanders printers. The 12/7 is built liek a tank. > All metal, even the casing. I think the only plastic bits other than > electricla insuators (conencotr/switch housings, etc) are the PTFE slidew > bearings for the carriage. > > Teh 700 is perhaps not _quite_ so solid. It's a Daiblo 630 chassis fitted > with a dot matrix head. And the cover is plastic. But it's still a lot > better than soem I could name. > > Pity there's no way yto print graphics on them. > > -tony > > Somewere in my store I still have a Logabax 9 pin tractor feed I bourght in the 80's, all metal ( and lots of it) largs, heavy and noisey, used it for over 20 years till it started to chew ribbons. Z80 based, i recall I patched it for lower case, they had kindly left room in the eprom to extend the lookup table. DaveH From shutchman at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 09:56:59 2013 From: shutchman at gmail.com (Hutch) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 10:56:59 -0400 Subject: New hardware project... In-Reply-To: <516F58A9.5010508@neurotica.com> References: <516DC5A6.1060307@neurotica.com> <20130417223922.1f97079c71282abc7ce8e505@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <516F58A9.5010508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I took a look at the motherboard on the SUN 3/140 , mine has 500-1164-05 , near the DB9 video output I see two 380 ohm resistors. On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:21 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/17/2013 04:39 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > >> Quite a few Sun framebuffers have ECL outputs, but they're all very > old > >> ones (older than the 3/140) and all monochrome. > > I have some SBus bwtwo with ECL output. They where used in the first > > SPARCstation 1s. > > Oh yes, I remember those! They didn't last very far into the > SPARCstation > era, if memory serves. > > Those monitors are getting really tough to find. I'd like to have a few > for my 3/60s. > > > Regarding the cable length problem: Smells a lot like a termination > > problem. There are special differential ECL transmitter and receiver > > ICs with build in active termination for this purpose. > > What are the characteristics of those terminators? I wonder if that's > the > OP's problem as Tony suggested. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > -- e-? From amh at POBOX.COM Thu Apr 18 18:09:57 2013 From: amh at POBOX.COM (Andrew Hoerter) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 19:09:57 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <516F4C96.1010908@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516EFC1D.4020609@xs4all.nl> <2B47B089-DC0A-4FB3-A46A-001EFA894F4D@neurotica.com> <34A9A289-2701-42A5-B44D-C455BE818F8E@neurotica.com> <516F4C96.1010908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/17/2013 09:10 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > >>> I forget, do you have physical IBM systems too? I know you have Cray > gear.. > >> > >> I do. > > > > Which ones? > > z/890 > S/370 9375 > Multiprise 3000 (sorta counts) > P/390 (barely counts) > Out of curiosity, do you have any of these running with a recent OS (z/OS, z/VM)? When I investigated the possibility it seemed like you had to pay IBM at least a few hundred bucks a month in licensing, I was wondering if anything has changed for hobbyists now that even 64-bit z series machines are available used at prices a mere mortal could potentially afford. (if you'd rather not answer in public for some reason, I understand...) -Andy From gewtnet at me.com Wed Apr 17 19:18:12 2013 From: gewtnet at me.com (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:18:12 -0400 Subject: C64 Direct-to-TV Message-ID: <4A34E2B6-C029-4062-8C36-DFA736FC6D85@me.com> I don't have a REAL Commodore 64, so I unfortunately cannot mess with the physical hardware. But! I have a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C64_Direct-to-TV and it seems that it is pretty hackable. Should be interesting to mess with?unfortunately I have no idea where the soldering equipment is here so I can't do much with it. ;) From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 18 20:36:50 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 20:36:50 -0500 Subject: What are these Tektronix paper rolls? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51709FB2.4080508@pico-systems.com> Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 09:33:58 -0700 From: Glen Slick To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: What are these Tektronix paper rolls? (8.5-inch wide, 3.25-inch diameter) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I have some boxes of Tektronix paper rolls and I have no idea where they were used. The rolls are 8.5-inches wide and have a diameter of 3.25-inches. They are packed 6 to a box and I have around six boxes of these which are all sealed except for one. I can't find any obvious part numbers anywhere. The boxes say Made in Japan and have JAL Cargo stickers on them and were shipped to PDX. These might date back to somewhere in the 1980's. They came along with some Tektronix 4170 systems I picked up a while back. Tektronix made a fiber-faceplate optical printer for the 4010-series storage tube graphics terminals. They were hideous, and made horrible brown copies that smelled bad, and the printer would sometimes give off ammonia fumes so bad that your eyes would tear. This sounds exactly like the paper for that. Jon From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 20:41:28 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 01:41:28 -0000 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? References: <20130417181206.D63055@shell.lmi.net> <51702454.5080900@sbcglobal.net> <579A8468-5990-4651-B0CB-874FDC7C3CF6@gewt.net> <51706D9E.4080904@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > On 04/18/2013 03:00 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> >> >> On 18 Apr 2013, at 12:50, "Dave Woyciesjes" wrote: >> >>> >> >> Is this message blank or did something break here? >> > Uh, something broke? Lemme look in Sent.... > > Yep, blank message there... > And I have no idea what it may have been in response too > Weird. > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 20:42:49 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 21:42:49 -0400 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <51706D9E.4080904@sbcglobal.net> References: <20130417181206.D63055@shell.lmi.net> <51702454.5080900@sbcglobal.net> <579A8468-5990-4651-B0CB-874FDC7C3CF6@gewt.net> <51706D9E.4080904@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > And I have no idea what it may have been in response too It was a perfect response to anything MG says. -- Will From jws at jwsss.com Thu Apr 18 20:43:44 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:43:44 -0700 Subject: What are these Tektronix paper rolls? (8.5-inch wide, 3.25-inch diameter) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5170A150.3080403@jwsss.com> On 4/18/2013 2:40 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Richard wrote: >> In article , >> Glen Slick writes: >> >>> Anyone know what equipment would have used these rolls? Are they most >>> likely thermal, or something else? Anyone have a use for these? Would >>> they still be suitable for the original application after 25 years? >>> The boxes are a bit heavy if someone has a use for these and wants >>> them. >> They are most likely the special dry-print silver paper that was used >> in the storage tube copier and video copier products: >> >> > Thanks Richard, I figure you would be a good source of info. > > I took a quick look at those manuals. The photos show a cassette > assembly which appears to be larger than the 3.25-inch diameter rolls > that I have, plus it looks like the paper is contained inside a > metallic cassette and the manual mentions a metallic light seal strip. > I haven't unwrapped one of the rolls I have yet but they appear to be > simply paper rolls without any sort of cassette container. > > -Glen > > Once you get one open, the material on the fax type paper will be sort of chalky in nature. Some of the papers use other treated paper too. I agree with you the silver paper used by the Tek printers was in a larger roll, and was light sensitive, so had the canister. did you say that the boxes and material were badged with Tek logos, or just pile in the shipment of some stuff you got? I recently had a job where they chucked a case of regular fax paper, which is the size you describe and I dug it out of the trash and brought it home to use with my silent 700's. Jim From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 21:00:21 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 02:00:21 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516F0560.8080006@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Andrew Hoerter wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 4:26 PM, mc68010 wrote: > > I just looked through their rules and they are pretty hard core. They are >> pretty clear nobody should use the system to learn zos and should have >> training before you use the system. Looks like the ban people without mercy >> and very quickly too. Doesn't look like the place to casually go and check >> out zos. >> > > I noticed the same thing and was a bit disappointed. On the other hand -- > their system, their rules. > > I guess there's always Hercules and ancient versions of MVS to bootstrap a > little experience with the basics. If you want to play with MTS or MUSIC/SP, lemme know and I'll give you access. > > -Andy > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 21:20:19 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 22:20:19 -0400 Subject: New hardware project... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I am sure you are correct. I will try to find that schematic of the frame > buffer card, and see what resistors were used on the ECL source end. Now > you have me wanting to put that long cable back on with the correct > termination! ECL almost always wants 50 Ohms. There are a few cases when Thevenin terminations are used if no -2.0 Volt supply is handy, but the transmission lines will still likely still be 50 Ohm. -- Will From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 22:19:12 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 03:19:12 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516EFC1D.4020609@xs4all.nl> <2B47B089-DC0A-4FB3-A46A-001EFA894F4D@neurotica.com> <34A9A289-2701-42A5-B44D-C455BE818F8E@neurotica.com> <516F4C96.1010908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 18 Apr 2013, at 19:09, "Andrew Hoerter" wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> On 04/17/2013 09:10 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>>> I forget, do you have physical IBM systems too? I know you have Cray >> gear.. >>>> >>>> I do. >>> >>> Which ones? >> >> z/890 >> S/370 9375 >> Multiprise 3000 (sorta counts) >> P/390 (barely counts) >> > > Out of curiosity, do you have any of these running with a recent OS (z/OS, > z/VM)? When I investigated the possibility it seemed like you had to pay > IBM at least a few hundred bucks a month in licensing, I was wondering if > anything has changed for hobbyists now that even 64-bit z series machines > are available used at prices a mere mortal could potentially afford. I do not at present unfortunately. It seems the z/VM evaluation can work on Hercules with enough work, but my knowledge of the internals of IBM stuff is minimal so I wouldn't be able to set that up. I wonder if there's an evaluation or hobbyist z/OS release... > > (if you'd rather not answer in public for some reason, I understand...) > > -Andy From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 18 22:35:41 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 20:35:41 -0700 Subject: got my dot-matrix printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5170BB8D.9040902@sydex.com> On 04/18/2013 01:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Under the removeable cover, in front of the carriage, are 6 slots for the > font cartridges. The cartridges each cotnain a couple of EPROMs. > > THe electroncs is based round a pair of Z8s (character input and > mechanism control) and a Z80 (comamnd procesing). The Diablo dot-matrix that I used was in a 630-ish case, but the carriage area cover was fully detachable, not hinged/cantilevered. I don't recall if the power supply was separate, as in the Hitype I printers. Interface was a 50-pin ribbon (twisted-pair spectra-strip, actually), so I suspect Dataproducts parallel. The "smarts" were definitely Rockwell PPS--I vividly remember the oddball staggered two-rows of pins on each side of the package. I recall the one of the engineers who had worked on the thing mentioned that the whole affair used no interrupts--and a whole bunch of timed program loops. Probably around 1977. The thing was so loud that it was used only as a backup printer. We used a modified Teletype 40 band printer--running tractor-feed 132-column green-bar paper. Heckuva rugged thing--it just ran and ran. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 18 22:42:55 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 20:42:55 -0700 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> Message-ID: At 11:31 PM +0000 4/18/13, Cory Smelosky wrote: >Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of >the list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) > >Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? I think it's just you. I would prefer if that wasn't done, it wastes bytes, and lengthens the subject line. Personally I have a filter setup so that all classiccmp emails go to the same mailbox. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From pet4032 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 22:45:04 2013 From: pet4032 at gmail.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 23:45:04 -0400 Subject: Another Online Source for Diskettes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5170BDC0.6080602@gmail.com> On 4/18/2013 6:40 PM, Bob Vines wrote: >>>>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>>>> Btw, anyone have any blank 5.25" floppies kicking around? ;) > For another source of diskettes, I've had good luck recently (end of > last year) ordering from http://floppydisk.com/. It was a test buy of > ten 5.25-inch hubless diskettes for $10 + s&h to format for use with > DECmates by using a mix of old software, PCs,& TEAC drives. Health > issues put that project on hold unfortunately. :( > > Floppydisk.com has 3.5-, 5.25-, and (at the time and maybe still) > 8-inch diskettes with all of the standard storage capacities. Bulk > purchases, obviously, reduce the cost per diskette. > > [I have no business relationship with them -- I'm just a happy customer.] > There is also Athana... http://www.athana.com/index.html I have not bought from them, but their website says they have 3 1/2" to 8" diskettes, rigid disks, reel-to-reel tape, etc. It looks like they have pretty much all types of magnetic media. Cheers, Bryan From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 22:53:23 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 03:53:23 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> <82792389-43E0-442B-9CD2-85CB5923AA91@gewt.net> Message-ID: <37F8D22D-DBD8-4A09-B597-8864710D7378@gewt.net> On 18 Apr 2013, at 19:46, "Tothwolf" wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> On 18 Apr 2013, at 13:17, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >>> On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> >>>> Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't help but wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off. >>> >>> I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the RS/6000 world. >> >> How many people outside of IBM cloned it though? It definitely didn't survive as long as PCI. > > Cloned or made boards for it? There were a few 3rd party motherboard manufacturers that licensed MCA, but I don't remember their names offhand. As far as board manufacturers go (some licensed, some not), that I know of included 3Com, Western Digital, SMC, Adaptec, Corel (SCSI boards, I still have one), BusTek/BusLogic(Mylex), DPT, Kingston Technology... > > FWIW, both PCI and ISA are /still/ very popular for industrial / single board (backplane) computers that are often used in mission critical applications. I can't say I've seen either MCA or EISA used in anything lately though. The embedded market is a completely different game. ;) From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 22:55:46 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 23:55:46 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> Message-ID: On Apr 18, 2013, at 7:31 PM, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: > Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) > > Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? ...that turns out to be a contentious subject around here. - Dave From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 18 23:00:10 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 04:00:10 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> <82792389-43E0-442B-9CD2-85CB5923AA91@gewt.net> <5170877A.5070009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 18 Apr 2013, at 19:53, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > On 04/18/2013 04:28 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>> Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't >>>> help but wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market >>>> never took off. >>> >>> I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very >>> popular for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It >>> was also big in the RS/6000 world. >> >> How many people outside of IBM cloned it though? It definitely >> didn't survive as long as PCI. > > "Cloned" it? Almost noone, as IBM aggressively pursued those who did. > Lots of companies *licensed* it legitimately and made boards. No, it > was nowhere near as popular as PCI in absolute terms, but adjusted for the number of companies making "boards for desktop computers", as well as the number of small computers produced increasing over time, it was by no means a commercial failure...not by any stretch. Ah. That would explain why so few "cloned" it then. ;) > >>> However...that has nothing at all to do with mainframes. Some of >>> the "baby" development system "mainframes" like the P/390 do use >>> MCA...there's an MCA version of the P/390 card. (that was the >>> first one, the next two were PCI) >> >> I thought the architecture was derived from some of the designs IBM >> implemented for the busses in their mainframes? > > Not really, no. Most mainframes didn't have a bus per se, until > comparatively recently. Ah. I guess I need to go research the hardware of older big iron then. > >> Speaking of keyboards?it seems like one of the ones you gave me has >> failed! Seems to be an issue with its little electronics. > > That figures. I have more; I'll put some in your pile. Thanks! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 18 23:12:29 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 00:12:29 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <0CA7F068-F213-49B5-BFE0-165399A75B89@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D932C3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <0CA7F068-F213-49B5-BFE0-165399A75B89@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5170C42D.2020003@neurotica.com> On 04/18/2013 07:55 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>> Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't help but >>>> wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off. >>> >>> I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular for a >>> long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the >>> RS/6000 world. >>> >> ISTR that they also overreacted to their blunder on the ISA bus (they reserved no licensing rights) and overcompensated by demanding huge fees to license MCA. Third parties said, no thanks.... -- Ian > > ISTR DEC did the same dumb thing with VAXBI. Possibly XMI as well? Yup, exactly. :-( Suits. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 23:12:40 2013 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 21:12:40 -0700 Subject: What are these Tektronix paper rolls? (8.5-inch wide, 3.25-inch diameter) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hit a piece with a match or a soldering iron to see if it is thermal printer paper. If not it could be electrographic paper for the Tektronix 4611 and 4612 printers. The 4612 did video screen dumps. The 3 1/2 inch diameter is similar to what this printer uses. The silver paper cassette is much larger in diameter, more like 6 inches and is really a cassette enclosing light sensitive paper. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Richard wrote: > > > > In article < > CAM2UOwLhG9s_qP11Ez4TmzsVBsviKf7jcUykGy8SeX_7yQdduw at mail.gmail.com>, > > Glen Slick writes: > > > >> Anyone know what equipment would have used these rolls? Are they most > >> likely thermal, or something else? Anyone have a use for these? Would > >> they still be suitable for the original application after 25 years? > >> The boxes are a bit heavy if someone has a use for these and wants > >> them. > > > > They are most likely the special dry-print silver paper that was used > > in the storage tube copier and video copier products: > > > > > > Thanks Richard, I figure you would be a good source of info. > > I took a quick look at those manuals. The photos show a cassette > assembly which appears to be larger than the 3.25-inch diameter rolls > that I have, plus it looks like the paper is contained inside a > metallic cassette and the manual mentions a metallic light seal strip. > I haven't unwrapped one of the rolls I have yet but they appear to be > simply paper rolls without any sort of cassette container. > > -Glen > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From gyorpb at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 23:27:31 2013 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 06:27:31 +0200 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> Message-ID: <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> On 19 apr. 2013, at 01:31, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: > Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) > > Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? There's probably more people that feel that way, but there are headers in list messages to that purpose. This has come up in the past, and I don't give you much of a chance it'll happen. .tsooJ -- Wherever you go, there you are. -- Joost van de Griek From slandon110 at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 23:58:52 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 00:58:52 -0400 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI Message-ID: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> These machines need to find homes ASAP before my move, otherwise they will be headed to goodwill IBM PC 5150, Nice original machine with Sysdyne Color RGB Display Original Boxes, Has a 20MB Hardcard installed, along with an ethernet card $200 Nice original Apple II Plus System Monitor /// z80 Card ThunderClock Plus Clock Card Monitor /// Stand Kensington SystemSaver $200 Apple IIGS System Monitor, Keyboard, Mouse AE GSRam Plus Ram Upgrade with 1MB RAM, Expandable to 6MB SCSI Card and 80MB External HDD $200 Apple //e System CFFA 3000 Z80 CPM Card Super Serial Card Apple UniDisk 3.5 Drive card with 2 Unidisk 3.5 Drives DuoDisk 5.25 Drive Apple II Appletalk Card- Connects your Apple II to your localtalk network Apple RGB Monitor Card Apple Color Monitor 100- Digital RGB Monitor for //e $300 dollars Bell & Howell Apple II 1 Matching Bell & Howell Drive Hayes Micromodem II with Microcoupler z80 Card Super Serial Card Matching black 9inch CRT Monitor $300 Atari ST520FM TOS 2.0 ROMs included not installed Monitor and Mouse 52MB SCSI HDD with ICD ACSI to SCSI Adapter Card $100 Osborne 1 System- Bad caps $40 Compaq Portable /// Works $40 From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 00:02:02 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 05:02:02 +0000 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <51706D9E.4080904@sbcglobal.net> References: <20130417181206.D63055@shell.lmi.net> <51702454.5080900@sbcglobal.net> <579A8468-5990-4651-B0CB-874FDC7C3CF6@gewt.net> <51706D9E.4080904@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1081874598-1366347724-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-563104356-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> I always worry ill pocket reply to something these days (phone doesn't always lock nor keep the screen off lots of times). That's just me guessing though. Could be invisible e-ink and I just need to hold this phone over a flame for a bit. Perhaps that yule log video. I shall return with my findings. -----Original Message----- From: Dave Woyciesjes Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:03:10 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? On 04/18/2013 03:00 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > > On 18 Apr 2013, at 12:50, "Dave Woyciesjes" wrote: > >> > > Is this message blank or did something break here? > Uh, something broke? Lemme look in Sent.... Yep, blank message there... And I have no idea what it may have been in response too -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 19 00:11:56 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 01:11:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> Message-ID: <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the lis$ > Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? Not me. Subject lines are already unwieldy enough; the envelope-from and the List-*: headers are plenty for any automated identification of list mail I want to do. Is it difficult for you to use them? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Apr 19 00:24:03 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 00:24:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <517077FE.7030404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> <20130417185242.F63055@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D92FD7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130418095035.O76096@shell.lmi.net> <51704CD4.7060800@sbcglobal.net> <517077FE.7030404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, ben wrote: > On 4/18/2013 1:43 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > On 04/18/2013 12:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Ian King wrote: > > > > On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Gene has put together the cockpit. > > > > > > It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc. > > > > > > > > > > That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad > > > > > enough at me as it is. :) > > > > > > > > I figure when you install the air-to-air missiles is when they really > > > > get unhappy. -- Ian > > > > > > In the meantime, just rig up a mechanism to drop Packard Bells > > > > Now that's just _mean_.... > > This is mean: Save Ducks, shoot a flying Bell today. > :) As opposed to flying toasters? >:) From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 00:55:24 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 05:55:24 -0000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> Message-ID: <234E5A99-A19C-42DE-88B8-E4DC77C298DA@gewt.net> On 18 Apr 2013, at 23:42, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > At 11:31 PM +0000 4/18/13, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of >> the list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) >> >> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? > > I think it's just you. I would prefer if that wasn't done, it wastes > bytes, and lengthens the subject line. Understandable?I was using braindead email clients. Now i've switched to alpine which makes things easier. ;) > > Personally I have a filter setup so that all classiccmp emails go to > the same mailbox. Ah. See above. ;) > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.com | > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 00:56:40 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 01:56:40 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> Message-ID: <5170DC98.2020706@neurotica.com> On 04/18/2013 11:42 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:31 PM +0000 4/18/13, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the >> list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) >> >> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? > > I think it's just you. I would prefer if that wasn't done, it wastes bytes, > and lengthens the subject line. Actually I'd like it too, but it's been suggested/debated/screamed about dozens of times over the past ten years or so here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 01:57:40 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 06:57:40 -0000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 19 Apr 2013, at 00:27, "Joost van de Griek" wrote: > > On 19 apr. 2013, at 01:31, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: > >> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) >> >> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? > > There's probably more people that feel that way, but there are headers in list messages to that purpose. This has come up in the past, and I don't give you much of a chance it'll happen. No worries. I can beat my client in to submission. ;) > > ..tsooJ > -- > Wherever you go, there you are. > -- > Joost van de Griek > From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 02:22:21 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:22:21 -0000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> On 19 Apr 2013, at 01:11, "Mouse" wrote: > >> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the lis$ > >> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? > > Not me. Subject lines are already unwieldy enough; the envelope-from and > the List-*: headers are plenty for any automated identification of list > mail I want to do. Is it difficult for you to use them? Thunderbird was garbage and was limited at filtering. I have since stopped using thunderbird. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 02:27:30 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:27:30 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> <20130417185242.F63055@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D92FD7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130418095035.O76096@shell.lmi.net> <51704CD4.7060800@sbcglobal.net> <517077FE.7030404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 19 Apr 2013, at 01:24, "Tothwolf" wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, ben wrote: >> On 4/18/2013 1:43 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> > On 04/18/2013 12:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > > On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Ian King wrote: >> > > > On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: >> > > > > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > Gene has put together the cockpit. >> > > > > > It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc. >> > > > > >> > > > > That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad > > > > enough at me as it is. :) >> > > > >> > > > I figure when you install the air-to-air missiles is when they really > > > get unhappy. -- Ian >> > > > > In the meantime, just rig up a mechanism to drop Packard Bells >> > > Now that's just _mean_.... >> >> This is mean: Save Ducks, shoot a flying Bell today. >> :) > > As opposed to flying toasters? >:) The greatest screensaver of all time! ?other than 3-D Maze. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 02:42:38 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 08:42:38 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <82792389-43E0-442B-9CD2-85CB5923AA91@gewt.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> <82792389-43E0-442B-9CD2-85CB5923AA91@gewt.net> Message-ID: <5170F56E.9040906@gmail.com> On 18/04/2013 21:28, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > On 18 Apr 2013, at 13:17, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > >> On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't help but wonder >>> why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off. >> I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular >> for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the >> RS/6000 world. > How many people outside of IBM cloned it though? It definitely didn't survive as long as PCI. > >> However...that has nothing at all to do with mainframes. Some of the >> "baby" development system "mainframes" like the P/390 do use MCA...there's an >> MCA version of the P/390 card. (that was the first one, the next two were PCI) > I thought the architecture was derived from some of the designs IBM implemented for the busses in their mainframes? I think that was more "Marketing" than anything real. All S/360 i/o is via what is called a "Channel" which is physically implemented as a BUS. However its not directly connected to memory like an ISA or MCA card. Instead the channel has a dedicated programmable interface usually just refered to as a "Channel" but its a really an intelligent controller/cpu which runs something called "channel programs". Its a fairly simple program but it will do scatter/gather i/o, loop, test device status etc. so offloading much of the work in doing i/o away from the main CPU. All a program had to do to perform i/o was construct a channel program that defined what i/o it wanted doing and issue a Sart IO (SIO) command and the channel program does the rest. So for a communications line you can leave a channel program running in an endless loop and it will only interupt when a byte arrives... So whilst MCA had DMA it only had one DMA path to memory and there was no equivalent of a "Channel Program" even though it was called "Micro Channel Architecure".... If I remember properly he S/360 architecture allowed for 8 channels running at 1.5 MBytes/Sec (so 12Mbits), S/370 upped this to 4Mbytes/sec or 32Mbits/sec and allowed more channels. In XA there can be 256 channels... but they are no longer real channels... Each channel has 256 addresses, 00 thru FF. Typically we add the channel number to the start so a S/360 could address up to 2048 (8x256) 000 thru 7FF devices. As logic was expensive typically devices were connected by a controller. Only the controller actually connects directly to the channel via a standard interface called Bus+Tag. The devices connect to the controller, but via some interconnect appropriate to the device. So Tapes and Disks had similar cables to the Bus+Tag, but screens connected via the 93ohm co-ax which is where we started. The original plan was that these were set up as 16 controllers each with up to 16 devices but later on devices such as printers appeared with built controllers and controllers that could support more than 16 devices became common so tweaks were made. There are pictures of the Bus+Tag connectors that connected the cables used to connect a channels controllers here:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360 >> MCA was really a microcomputers-only bus. > True. > >>>>>> That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever >>>>>> it's for) to one of those establishment controllers. >>>>> I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them? >>>> Like other application-specific boards, they usually came with a driver >>>> disk and likely a 3270-ish terminal program. >>> I wonder how they handled the extended keyboard buttons. Did they include a >>> keyboard? ;) >> Yes, there was a special keyboard. > I figured there would have been. > > Speaking of keyboards?it seems like one of the ones you gave me has failed! Seems to be an issue with its little electronics. > >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 02:48:38 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 08:48:38 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5170F6D6.5030601@gmail.com> On 18/04/2013 22:13, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 18, 2013, at 1:52 PM, Dave wrote: > >> On 18/04/2013 16:05, David Riley wrote: >>> On Apr 18, 2013, at 10:16 AM, geneb wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb wrote: >>>>>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to. >>>>> Come on over! >>>>> >>>> So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) >>> Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely, >>> I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he >>> drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping. >> NO NO NO NO NO! RG58 is 50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63.... > What's the BNC for, then? As far as I knew, they only made > 50 and 75-ohm BNC jacks. Or did they just use 75 ohm ones > and hope the brief blip on the TDR didn't do too much to > the signal? > Check out the planning guide, I am pretty sure its on the IBM web site, it will have part numbers. I am pretty sure we just used 75 Ohm BNCs but it was a long time ago, and we only had sort runs.. .. If I remember I'll ask our cabling guy at work. He has been around long enough and he might remember. For Hams with small gardens 93ohm co-ax is supposed to be good for feeding G5RVs... > - Dave > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 02:53:14 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 08:53:14 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> <517035C1.3060200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5170F7EA.5070709@gmail.com> On 18/04/2013 22:30, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Dave wrote: > >> On 18/04/2013 16:36, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>> We have an IBM 3270, as well as several of the IRMA 3270. I can >>> test the >>> 3270 machine, but I don't know how to test the 3270 cards. They are >>> LONG >>> ISA boards. >>> >>> Cindy Croxton >> >> I have a feeling they came with a replacement IBM Diagnostics disk >> which had an extra test on for the card. I can't really see many >> folks wanting one as the real fun is in using a real 3270. If you >> just want to connect a PC to a mainframe then TN3270 works just fine >> and is virtually indistinguishable from the use experience side of >> things. > > The hard part (at least from my standpoint) is getting your hands on > the IBM mainframe to begin with. MP3000 come up from time to time on E-Bay and are reasonably cheap. Finding an OS to run on one is harder. You can connect a real 3270 to Hercules. > > I recently saw pictures on the VCF of a 3270 keyboard a guy had (or > was in the process of) hacking to work on a PC. I have a couple of Nokia 122 key keyboards that plug straight into a PC. Like the one at the bottom of here:- http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm > > g. > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 02:56:37 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 08:56:37 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516EFC1D.4020609@xs4all.nl> <2B47B089-DC0A-4FB3-A46A-001EFA894F4D@neurotica.com> <34A9A289-2701-42A5-B44D-C455BE818F8E@neurotica.com> <516F4C96.1010908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5170F8B5.1050401@gmail.com> On 19/04/2013 00:09, Andrew Hoerter wrote: > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> On 04/17/2013 09:10 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>>> I forget, do you have physical IBM systems too? I know you have Cray >> gear.. >>>> I do. >>> Which ones? >> z/890 >> S/370 9375 >> Multiprise 3000 (sorta counts) >> P/390 (barely counts) >> > Out of curiosity, do you have any of these running with a recent OS (z/OS, > z/VM)? When I investigated the possibility it seemed like you had to pay > IBM at least a few hundred bucks a month in licensing, I was wondering if > anything has changed for hobbyists now that even 64-bit z series machines > are available used at prices a mere mortal could potentially afford. > > (if you'd rather not answer in public for some reason, I understand...) > > -Andy Basically "NO" , there are no reduced charges. You can download the zVM eval but it needs a pretty recent machine to run on and its only legal to run it for a limited period of time. You used to be able to get IBM software on a "one time charge" basis but usually folks transfer that licence to the new machine. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Apr 19 02:58:48 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 02:58:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <234E5A99-A19C-42DE-88B8-E4DC77C298DA@gewt.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <234E5A99-A19C-42DE-88B8-E4DC77C298DA@gewt.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On 18 Apr 2013, at 23:42, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> At 11:31 PM +0000 4/18/13, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> >>> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of >>> the list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) >>> >>> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? >> >> I think it's just you. I would prefer if that wasn't done, it wastes >> bytes, and lengthens the subject line. > > Understandable?I was using braindead email clients. Now i've switched > to alpine which makes things easier. ;) The subject line issue has been debated more times than I can count. I'm not really a fan of the idea either, especially since many "braindead" clients tend to handle the subject line poorly and jumble it up as a thread progresses. Just wait until you begin to find more of al(pine)'s advanced/hidden features... >> Personally I have a filter setup so that all classiccmp emails go to >> the same mailbox. > > Ah. See above. ;) Same. Procmail can do pretty much anything, but for list traffic, simply redirecting each list to it's own mbox file suffices for my needs. :0: * ^List-Id:.*cctalk\.classiccmp\.org lists/classiccmp From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 03:00:23 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 09:00:23 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <51708958.6040101@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> <51708958.6040101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5170F997.4030208@gmail.com> On 19/04/2013 01:01, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/18/2013 05:13 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> NO NO NO NO NO! RG58 is 50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63.... >> >> What's the BNC for, then? As far as I knew, they only made >> 50 and 75-ohm BNC jacks. Or did they just use 75 ohm ones >> and hope the brief blip on the TDR didn't do too much to >> the signal? > > All 3270 stuff uses BNC connectors. I don't know offhand which > impedance of BNCs they use (they look like 50-ohm to me) but at those > frequencies, a few MHz, the impedance bump really is minimal. > 50ohn and 75Ohm BNC look much the same to me. At one time the pins were different sizes but you needed a micrometer to tell. I think since 1978 they are the same size... > -Dave > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 03:02:40 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 09:02:40 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECDD5.50109@gewt.net> <516ECFDD.3050209@neurotica.com> <516EFC1D.4020609@xs4all.nl> <2B47B089-DC0A-4FB3-A46A-001EFA894F4D@neurotica.com> <34A9A289-2701-42A5-B44D-C455BE818F8E@neurotica.com> <516F4C96.1010908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5170FA20.2090001@gmail.com> On 19/04/2013 04:19, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > On 18 Apr 2013, at 19:09, "Andrew Hoerter" wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> >>> On 04/17/2013 09:10 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>>>> I forget, do you have physical IBM systems too? I know you have Cray >>> gear.. >>>>> I do. >>>> Which ones? >>> z/890 >>> S/370 9375 >>> Multiprise 3000 (sorta counts) >>> P/390 (barely counts) >>> >> Out of curiosity, do you have any of these running with a recent OS (z/OS, >> z/VM)? When I investigated the possibility it seemed like you had to pay >> IBM at least a few hundred bucks a month in licensing, I was wondering if >> anything has changed for hobbyists now that even 64-bit z series machines >> are available used at prices a mere mortal could potentially afford. > I do not at present unfortunately. It seems the z/VM evaluation can work on Hercules with enough work, but my knowledge of the internals of IBM stuff is minimal so I wouldn't be able to set that up. The zVM evaluation will boot straight up on a recent build of Hercules, but not sure of the legality. Getting it so it runs from real disk rather than emulated DVD is harder. > I wonder if there's an evaluation or hobbyist z/OS release... No. >> (if you'd rather not answer in public for some reason, I understand...) >> >> -Andy > From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Apr 19 03:08:06 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 03:08:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Steven Landon wrote: > These machines need to find homes ASAP before my move, > otherwise they will be headed to goodwill ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ While I don't mind someone occasionally plugging a sale for their own gear, I /don't/ like see this sort of remark. "Buy my stuff or the [insert name] gets it!" Of course we know Goodwill junks (scraps, dumpsters) the computers they get that can't run Windows 7 or newer. That's their stated policy now because they supposedly don't want people returning a computer and bitching that it can't run the latest version of Windows. Maybe I'm the only one who gets annoyed with this sort of remark though... From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Apr 19 03:14:50 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 03:14:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516ECF27.1080805@neurotica.com> <516EFDAD.7030001@xs4all.nl> <516F2365.4080809@neurotica.com> <20130417185242.F63055@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D92FD7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130418095035.O76096@shell.lmi.net> <51704CD4.7060800@sbcglobal.net> <517077FE.7030404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On 19 Apr 2013, at 01:24, "Tothwolf" wrote: >> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, ben wrote: >>> On 4/18/2013 1:43 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>>> On 04/18/2013 12:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Ian King wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: >>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gene has put together the cockpit. >>>>>>>> It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad > > > > enough at me as it is. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> I figure when you install the air-to-air missiles is when they really > > > get unhappy. -- Ian >>>>>>> In the meantime, just rig up a mechanism to drop Packard Bells >>>>> Now that's just _mean_.... >>> >>> This is mean: Save Ducks, shoot a flying Bell today. >>> :) >> >> As opposed to flying toasters? >:) > > The greatest screensaver of all time! ?other than 3-D Maze. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delrina#Berkeley_Systems_Inc._v._Delrina From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Apr 19 04:00:01 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:00:01 +0200 (CEST) Subject: What are these Tektronix paper rolls? (8.5-inch wide, 3.25-inch diameter) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Richard wrote: > In article , > Glen Slick writes: >> Anyone know what equipment would have used these rolls? Are they most >> likely thermal, or something else? Anyone have a use for these? Would >> they still be suitable for the original application after 25 years? >> The boxes are a bit heavy if someone has a use for these and wants >> them. > > They are most likely the special dry-print silver paper that was used > in the storage tube copier and video copier products: No, they are for the more modern Tektronix 46?? hard copy unit that uses dry toner and a roll of electrostatic paper. We have one of those units, but the paper feed roller belt is broken, and I can't buy tooth belts with 40DP (0.0816") spacing in Europe. The modem MXL (0.08") belts don't fit. Christian From marcogb at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 19 04:51:56 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:51:56 +0200 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> Message-ID: <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> On 19-apr-2013 9:22, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Thunderbird was garbage and was limited at filtering. I have since > stopped using thunderbird. How so? It seems to work fine for me. - MG From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Apr 19 05:14:19 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:14:19 +0100 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Who's on first. From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 19 05:40:57 2013 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 12:40:57 +0200 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51711F39.2090209@xs4all.nl> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Someone on the list was lamenting the rarity of 8" floppies - anyone > still sell those NIB? Here I have two boxes of unused '3M 740-32 SS, SD single side, single density, write protect, 32 hard sector' 8" floppy disks, One box is still shrink wrapped. Not much use to me as all my 8" floppy systems are soft sectored. Trading them for soft sectored disk might be a better option than taping over 32 holes per disk or adding a sector hole masking circuit to all the drives... Fred Jan From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 05:58:02 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:58:02 +0100 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: <20130417181206.D63055@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 18 April 2013 08:46, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> A cat EKG might even be useful. >> >> Vets would love a CAT-scan device. > > > I think it was catscan.org where people posted pics created by putting cats > atop document scanners. The original is no more, but try http://thecatscan.tumblr.com/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From keithdy at iinet.com.au Fri Apr 19 05:52:00 2013 From: keithdy at iinet.com.au (Keith Dyson) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 18:52:00 +0800 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer in Australia Message-ID: <691D78A8CFDE41B89FEBBC2E843BD09F@geninternet> To the Administrator I have given the equipment, tapes and paper documentation to Scott Kevill ( scott at kevill.com ) because he lives in Perth and was able to come pick it up. he has told me he plans to scan the paper material and put it on the web somewhere so others can see it. I was amazed to have 4 people contact me with a couple of days. thank you for spreading the word thru your mailing list - can you now notify all that the machine has gone to a better place :) , with an enthusiast. Cheers... Keith From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 19 07:16:28 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 05:16:28 -0700 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3C1812CF-A234-45AC-B329-B071A723BAC9@aracnet.com> On Apr 19, 2013, at 1:08 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Steven Landon wrote: > >> These machines need to find homes ASAP before my move, >> otherwise they will be headed to goodwill > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > While I don't mind someone occasionally plugging a sale for their own gear, I /don't/ like see this sort of remark. > > "Buy my stuff or the [insert name] gets it!" > > Of course we know Goodwill junks (scraps, dumpsters) the computers they get that can't run Windows 7 or newer. That's their stated policy now because they supposedly don't want people returning a computer and bitching that it can't run the latest version of Windows. > > Maybe I'm the only one who gets annoyed with this sort of remark though... Actually it tends to mirror my thought on the subject in spite of my having systems that I need to get rid of at some point. Offer them for free for local pickup before threatening to scape them. Zane From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Fri Apr 19 08:16:04 2013 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 09:16:04 -0400 Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? In-Reply-To: <51701F35.7090109@neurotica.com> References: <516FFE9F.9010003@telegraphics.com.au> <201304181552.r3IFqfZU075828@mx1.ezwind.net> <51701F35.7090109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3f394d$2ktu5q@fipsb02.cogeco.net> At 12:28 PM 18/04/2013, you wrote: >On 04/18/2013 11:52 AM, John Foust wrote: > >> Coincidentally, I found this in my inbox today. > >> http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/save-small-gauge-film > >> Their scanner sounds like the cat's pajamas. > > > > So he wants other people to pay for a high-end scanner for his business, > > because he promises to rescue old footage? > > Far, far stranger things have gotten huge amounts of money via those types >of campaigns. > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA While I don't doubt that a $100 K scanner can do good work with well shot home movies, about 90 percent of the footage I have seen in the thirty five years I have been transferring this stuff has been out of focus, poorly lit, scratched, badly framed, (upside down even,) and so far no one has complained of the quality I get with my projector to Buhl lens system to video camera. Sooner or later we are going to run out of 8mm films to transfer. and it would take a long time to recover $100K at ten cents a foot for film. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 19 08:40:06 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:40:06 -0600 Subject: What are these Tektronix paper rolls? (8.5-inch wide, 3.25-inch diameter) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Glen Slick writes: > I took a quick look at those manuals. The photos show a cassette > assembly which appears to be larger than the 3.25-inch diameter rolls > that I have, plus it looks like the paper is contained inside a > metallic cassette and the manual mentions a metallic light seal strip. > I haven't unwrapped one of the rolls I have yet but they appear to be > simply paper rolls without any sort of cassette container. The one I have is basically a cardboard cylinder with the metallic strip light seal intact that you mention above. Tektronix made a number of image copiers and printers over the years. >From other replies on the thread, it sounds like this could be the paper for the 4611 or 4612 hard copy unit: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 19 08:43:21 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:43:21 -0600 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , Tothwolf writes: > Maybe I'm the only one who gets annoyed with this sort of remark though... If it bothers you so much, then buy them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 19 08:45:59 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 06:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Allison wrote: > other names from the same period 1.44mb stuff. I use those in my > frankenstein Kaypro 4/84 and the AmpoLB+ mostly and also the > Epson portable disk (3.5" equipped systems I run often). > Allison, what kind of 1.44 drives are you using in the LB? I've got one in the Series 100 bookcase enclosure that I'd like to change over to use HD 3.5" media... tnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 19 08:52:54 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:52:54 -0600 Subject: What are these Tektronix paper rolls? (8.5-inch wide, 3.25-inch diameter) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From the 1982 catalog where these were marked "new": 4611 Hard Copy Unit Paper -- one case of two rolls Tek part number 006-2838-00 Rolls are 8.5" by 500 ft. Toner -- one bottle Tek part number 006-2990-00 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 19 08:53:08 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 06:53:08 -0700 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: <51711F39.2090209@xs4all.nl> References: , <51711F39.2090209@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I have a machine that uses 16 hard sectored but I have enoughextras now, more than I'm likley to need. Some still wrapped.I still have a few 16 hole punches to transform 5-1/4 360k disk into16 hole 5-1/4 disk.I only have the one 10 hole punch left.For the 16 hole punches, I'm asking $35 plus postage.Dwight > Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 12:40:57 +0200 > From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: floppies > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Someone on the list was lamenting the rarity of 8" floppies - anyone > > still sell those NIB? > > Here I have two boxes of unused '3M 740-32 SS, SD single side, single > density, write protect, 32 hard sector' 8" floppy disks, One box is > still shrink wrapped. Not much use to me as all my 8" floppy systems are > soft sectored. > Trading them for soft sectored disk might be a better option than taping > over 32 holes per disk or adding a sector hole masking circuit to all > the drives... > > > Fred Jan From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 19 09:16:39 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <5170F7EA.5070709@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> <517035C1.3060200@gmail.com> <5170F7EA.5070709@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave wrote: >> The hard part (at least from my standpoint) is getting your hands on the >> IBM mainframe to begin with. > > MP3000 come up from time to time on E-Bay and are reasonably cheap. Finding > an OS to run on one is harder. You can connect a real 3270 to Hercules. >> Yeah. I'm discovering that finding operating systems for IBM hardware is problematic. Does Hercules have the OS that was running on the 4331-K2 circa 1986? >> I recently saw pictures on the VCF of a 3270 keyboard a guy had (or was in >> the process of) hacking to work on a PC. > > I have a couple of Nokia 122 key keyboards that plug straight into a PC. Like > the one at the bottom of here:- > > http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm Now THAT is a labor of love. Awesome site. Bookmarked! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 19 09:26:33 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: <20130417181206.D63055@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Liam Proven wrote: > On 18 April 2013 08:46, David Griffith wrote: >> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> A cat EKG might even be useful. >>> >>> Vets would love a CAT-scan device. >> >> >> I think it was catscan.org where people posted pics created by putting cats >> atop document scanners. > > The original is no more, but try http://thecatscan.tumblr.com/ > Ok, that covers THAT particular procedure. What've you got for IMRTs? :) (49 days in a row staring into one of these http://www.varian.com/us/oncology/treatments/treatment_techniques/IMRT/#.UXFTr8r_FHA wasn't pleasant.) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 09:46:45 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 09:46:45 -0500 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517158D5.10709@gmail.com> On 04/19/2013 03:08 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Steven Landon wrote: > >> These machines need to find homes ASAP before my move, >> otherwise they will be headed to goodwill > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > While I don't mind someone occasionally plugging a sale for their own gear, > I /don't/ like see this sort of remark. > > "Buy my stuff or the [insert name] gets it!" > > Of course we know Goodwill junks (scraps, dumpsters) the computers they get > that can't run Windows 7 or newer. That's their stated policy now because > they supposedly don't want people returning a computer and bitching that it > can't run the latest version of Windows. Hmm, I asked my local one a few weeks back about vintage stuff and it sounded like they didn't have a policy in place at all (but they also said that although they get old console cartridges in from time to time, they don't ever remember anyone donating any kind of complete vintage system, so perhaps it's something that's just never come up) I have seen various other things for sale that someone could easily mistake for being capable of something for which it isn't (e.g. a Betamax video recorder a little while back), so I'm surprised that there's a policy on computers when other things are left to the staff's judgement. (Although I *can* imagine Goodwills in more tech-rich areas getting flooded with ten year old PCs, say, and so they might benefit from a "no computers" policy) cheers Jules From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 19 09:49:09 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:49:09 -0400 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: <534622977-1366322065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242559149-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <517041E5.1060404@sbcglobal.net> <534622977-1366322065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242559149-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <51715965.1090601@sbcglobal.net> On 04/18/2013 05:54 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Asses or assets? The problem with the floppies I think is even "nos" or cib or used the oxide can still flake off in your drive so its sorta a risk either way. Intentionally wrote "asses"... to create humor/pun, based on the word "hind".... > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Woyciesjes > On 04/18/2013 12:50 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> ... >> but I do look back at that mountain of media and wish I'd had a >> climate-controlled place to store them. >> > > Hind-sight is 20/20, they say..... > > Too bad we sit on our asses all the time. > > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 09:58:20 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 09:58:20 -0500 Subject: Waste Management (the company) and vintage computers... Message-ID: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> Anyone had any dealings with them in this regard? I expect that they run a lot of local landfill sites (at least here in the US, but I think they're a global company). I've got a contact at my local one who tries to set aside for me anything that they think I might find interesting, but management policy is that nothing can leave the site once dropped off, and it sounds like this rule will be more strictly enforced in a couple of weeks' time following a site audit. I was considering contacting their management to see if there's any way to officially secure vintage items, and was wondering if anyone else has done this successfully? (In particular, it would be nice to know ahead of time what their main concerns are - if it's a liability issue, say, or if they perhaps see monetary value in e-waste) cheers Jules From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 19 10:00:33 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:00:33 -0400 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: <20130417181206.D63055@shell.lmi.net> <51702454.5080900@sbcglobal.net> <579A8468-5990-4651-B0CB-874FDC7C3CF6@gewt.net> <51706D9E.4080904@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51715C11.3010001@sbcglobal.net> On 04/18/2013 09:42 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> And I have no idea what it may have been in response too > > It was a perfect response to anything MG says. > > Will > True... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Apr 19 09:58:33 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:58:33 -0400 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> Message-ID: <51715B99.9070502@verizon.net> On 04/19/2013 09:45 AM, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Allison wrote: > >> other names from the same period 1.44mb stuff. I use those in my >> frankenstein Kaypro 4/84 and the AmpoLB+ mostly and also the >> Epson portable disk (3.5" equipped systems I run often). >> > Allison, what kind of 1.44 drives are you using in the LB? I've got > one in the Series 100 bookcase enclosure that I'd like to change over > to use HD 3.5" media... > > The amproLB+ is the Z80 powered board. The cpu is without DMA and not fast enough to do 1.44. The drives are Sony 70s (80tr, 2 side, 782kb format). They are older PC drives from the time when 3.5" floppies had a drive select switch or jumper like the 5.25 units did. Very reliable too. That system has a 45mb Fujitsu scsi disk. The kaypro4/84 uses them as well with the Advent TurboRom and Disk Personality board The front panel has a 5.25 and there are three 3.5", two in the remaining panel hole and another inside with the boot disk. They run in 782K format as the machine can't do disk IO at 1.44 speeds. With the 4 drives there are about 3mb of storage total. I also have a SB180 (micromint) in an old PS2 case and uses the PS2 drives directly and they also do 782K format. I used that case as I needed the power for a 20mb disk and Adaptec SCSI to MFM controller. I never adopted 1.44media with exception of PCs as it was default for them. For those I use toshiba, teac, newtronix, and a few others (I have a box of PC floppy drives). They are very infrequently used and likely no new machines I build will include them. Even though most ITX board do have a floppy interface. Primary portable storage on PCs are CD, SD, CF, and USB as they hold enough for what I do. For older machines floppies are used where controllers exist. though I work to fit more modern media where possible. Allison From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 19 10:01:23 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:01:23 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> Message-ID: <51715C43.5040700@sbcglobal.net> On 04/18/2013 11:42 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:31 PM +0000 4/18/13, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of >> the list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) >> >> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? > > I think it's just you. I would prefer if that wasn't done, it wastes > bytes, and lengthens the subject line. > > Personally I have a filter setup so that all classiccmp emails go to the > same mailbox. > Yep, I've filtered on the email address. Works a treat. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 19 10:03:34 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:03:34 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> Message-ID: <51715CC6.2070707@sbcglobal.net> On 04/19/2013 03:22 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > > On 19 Apr 2013, at 01:11, "Mouse" wrote: > >> >>> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the lis$ >> >>> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? >> >> Not me. Subject lines are already unwieldy enough; the envelope-from and >> the List-*: headers are plenty for any automated identification of list >> mail I want to do. Is it difficult for you to use them? > > Thunderbird was garbage and was limited at filtering. I have since stopped using thunderbird. > I've never had an issue with TBird filtering. 'Course, I do the filtering on the email server now, and still use TBird for reading. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 19 10:05:11 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:05:11 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51715D27.4090600@sbcglobal.net> On 04/19/2013 06:14 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > Who's on first. > I don't know. That's what I asked you, -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jon at jonworld.com Fri Apr 19 10:11:07 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:11:07 -0400 Subject: Waste Management (the company) and vintage computers... In-Reply-To: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> References: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <117E17E9-4E67-4924-A50E-BBD93DEEBAE8@jonworld.com> On Apr 19, 2013, at 10:58 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Anyone had any dealings with them in this regard? I expect that they run a lot of local landfill sites (at least here in the US, but I think they're a global company). Nothing direct, but I assume it's all $$$ ? lots of that e-waste together means $$$ in recycling some of the gold, etc. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 19 10:11:56 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:11:56 -0400 Subject: Waste Management (the company) and vintage computers... In-Reply-To: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> References: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51715EBC.6090803@sbcglobal.net> On 04/19/2013 10:58 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Anyone had any dealings with them in this regard? I expect that they run > a lot of local landfill sites (at least here in the US, but I think > they're a global company). > > I've got a contact at my local one who tries to set aside for me > anything that they think I might find interesting, but management policy > is that nothing can leave the site once dropped off, and it sounds like > this rule will be more strictly enforced in a couple of weeks' time > following a site audit. > > I was considering contacting their management to see if there's any way > to officially secure vintage items, and was wondering if anyone else has > done this successfully? (In particular, it would be nice to know ahead > of time what their main concerns are - if it's a liability issue, say, > or if they perhaps see monetary value in e-waste) > > cheers > > Jules I suspect that they won't budge. They are contracted to dispose of items. Period. I don't think their customers would be thrilled if they found them reselling/ giving for reuse items they thought were being trashed. Maybe, just maybe, they can act as an intermediary and get you in touch with those who own the items to be scrapped... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 19 10:14:42 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:14:42 -0500 Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? In-Reply-To: <3f394d$2ktu5q@fipsb02.cogeco.net> References: <516FFE9F.9010003@telegraphics.com.au> <201304181552.r3IFqfZU075828@mx1.ezwind.net> <51701F35.7090109@neurotica.com> <3f394d$2ktu5q@fipsb02.cogeco.net> Message-ID: <201304191523.r3JFN8W0014677@mx1.ezwind.net> At 08:16 AM 4/19/2013, Charles E. Fox wrote: >While I don't doubt that a $100 K scanner can do good work with well shot home movies, about 90 percent >of the footage I have seen in the thirty five years I have been transferring this stuff has been out of focus, poorly lit, scratched, >badly framed, (upside down even,) and so far no one has complained of the quality I get with my projector >to Buhl lens system to video camera. Sooner or later we are going to run out of 8mm films to transfer. and it >would take a long time to recover $100K at ten cents a foot for film. By "video" you mean NTSC? On tape? What resolution is that? What is the resolution of a good-quality exposure on 8 mm or 16 mm? What's the resolution of film from a poor 8 mm camera? The place I mentioned scans at HD 1920 x 1080 pixels - quite a bit better than NTSC resolution. The $100K scanner guy wants to go to 2K, arguably 2048 x 1556, unknown pixel depth. With deeper bits-per-pixel, you get more leeway to massage poor exposures. Maybe you're more careful than the guy I used in the early 90s, maybe your projector has better lenses, (did I know you back in the Amiga days or when I was writing for video magazines?) but take a look at the difference between 1990s projector-to-VHS and today's digital HD scan. Watch at full-screen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f08K0Co3l5s One of my films was flipped horizontally and plays backwards. It was an easy fix in digital. Look at the sprocket jitter in the example above. How do you fix that with a projector? I think there's plenty of interesting films that would be worth preserving. I am tempted to help my local historical society with such a project. I'm sure there are home movies that would be worth keeping as a historical record, and that would be of interest to others. - John From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 10:25:28 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:25:28 -0000 Subject: Public mainframe system References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> <5170F6D6.5030601@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave wrote: > > On 18/04/2013 22:13, David Riley wrote: >> On Apr 18, 2013, at 1:52 PM, Dave wrote: >> >>> On 18/04/2013 16:05, David Riley wrote: >>>> On Apr 18, 2013, at 10:16 AM, geneb wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb wrote: >>>>>>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to. >>>>>> Come on over! >>>>>> >>>>> So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) >>>> Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely, >>>> I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he >>>> drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping. >>> NO NO NO NO NO! RG58 is 50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63.... >> What's the BNC for, then? As far as I knew, they only made >> 50 and 75-ohm BNC jacks. Or did they just use 75 ohm ones >> and hope the brief blip on the TDR didn't do too much to >> the signal? >> > Check out the planning guide, I am pretty sure its on the IBM web site, > it will have part numbers. I am pretty sure we just used 75 Ohm BNCs but > it was a long time ago, and we only had sort runs.. > ... If I remember I'll ask our cabling guy at work. He has been around > long enough and he might remember. For Hams with small gardens 93ohm > co-ax is supposed to be good for feeding G5RVs... >> - Dave I wonder if he still has some cable laying around. ;) >> >> >> > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 10:27:16 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:27:16 -0000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <234E5A99-A19C-42DE-88B8-E4DC77C298DA@gewt.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> On 18 Apr 2013, at 23:42, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >>> At 11:31 PM +0000 4/18/13, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> >>>> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of >>>> the list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) >>>> >>>> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? >>> >>> I think it's just you. I would prefer if that wasn't done, it wastes >>> bytes, and lengthens the subject line. >> >> Understandable?I was using braindead email clients. Now i've switched >> to alpine which makes things easier. ;) > > The subject line issue has been debated more times than I can count. I'm > not really a fan of the idea either, especially since many "braindead" > clients tend to handle the subject line poorly and jumble it up as a > thread progresses. > > Just wait until you begin to find more of al(pine)'s advanced/hidden > features... ;) > >>> Personally I have a filter setup so that all classiccmp emails go to >>> the same mailbox. >> >> Ah. See above. ;) > > Same. Procmail can do pretty much anything, but for list traffic, simply > redirecting each list to it's own mbox file suffices for my needs. > > :0: > * ^List-Id:.*cctalk\.classiccmp\.org > lists/classiccmp Hey, seems useful. Thanks! -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 10:28:23 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:28:23 -0000 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Tothwolf wrote: > > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Steven Landon wrote: > >> These machines need to find homes ASAP before my move, >> otherwise they will be headed to goodwill > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > While I don't mind someone occasionally plugging a sale for their own > gear, I /don't/ like see this sort of remark. > > "Buy my stuff or the [insert name] gets it!" > > Of course we know Goodwill junks (scraps, dumpsters) the computers they > get that can't run Windows 7 or newer. That's their stated policy now > because they supposedly don't want people returning a computer and > bitching that it can't run the latest version of Windows. > > Maybe I'm the only one who gets annoyed with this sort of remark though... > You're just doing your duty to protect hardware. ;) -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 10:30:09 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:30:09 -0000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, MG wrote: > > On 19-apr-2013 9:22, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> Thunderbird was garbage and was limited at filtering. I have since >> stopped using thunderbird. > > How so? It seems to work fine for me. > Maybe it was just one of the more recent versions...it just felt like I was limited to what I could filter. > - MG > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 19 10:32:29 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 08:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: <51715B99.9070502@verizon.net> References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> <51715B99.9070502@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, allison wrote: >> > The amproLB+ is the Z80 powered board. The cpu is without DMA and not fast > enough to do 1.44. > The drives are Sony 70s (80tr, 2 side, 782kb format). They are older PC > drives from the time when > 3.5" floppies had a drive select switch or jumper like the 5.25 units did. > Very reliable too. Rats. Finding 720k drives these days is nearly impossible and when you can find them, the seller prices them as if they're made from palladium and coated with unicorn tears. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 10:38:20 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:38:20 -0400 Subject: Sights in NYC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I forgot about the math museum, we're definitely going to check that out. Also not computer related but somewhat geeky - I'm going on a free forgotten-ny tour. They show the history of various neighborhoods, focusing more on infrastructure, showing where roads have been diverted, rivers buried, buildings re-purposed - that kind of trainspotter-ish stuff. On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:07 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > The Museum of math is not quite computing but is supposed to be great. > On Apr 18, 2013 12:33 PM, "Jason McBrien" wrote: > > > I'll be taking an extended trip to NYC next week - are there any > > retrocomputing related sights to see? Museum installations or whatnot? > > > From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 10:44:25 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:44:25 -0000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <51715CC6.2070707@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > On 04/19/2013 03:22 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> >> >> On 19 Apr 2013, at 01:11, "Mouse" wrote: >> >>> >>>> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the lis$ >>> >>>> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? >>> >>> Not me. Subject lines are already unwieldy enough; the envelope-from and >>> the List-*: headers are plenty for any automated identification of list >>> mail I want to do. Is it difficult for you to use them? >> >> Thunderbird was garbage and was limited at filtering. I have since stopped using thunderbird. >> > > I've never had an issue with TBird filtering. 'Course, I do the > filtering on the email server now, and still use TBird for reading. > That would explain it. My email server's server-side filtering is...well, a bit...interesting to say the least. > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 19 10:50:15 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:50:15 -0400 Subject: Fwd: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing In-Reply-To: <575131af0906301700p6e4f2af5x584e270e75b438e@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0906301700p6e4f2af5x584e270e75b438e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <517167B7.90600@sbcglobal.net> An interesting one, I found while cleaning up. Nice that it's still accessible -------- Original Message -------- Subject: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 01:00:11 +0100 From: Liam Proven Reply-To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Tom's Hardware - a popular site for PC hardware tweakers and overclockers - has done an ambitious article on the development of the mainframe: http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/508-mainframe-computer-history.html It's a little American-centric but it's not at all bad. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 19 10:56:02 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 17:56:02 +0200 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51716912.5020202@xs4all.nl> On 19-apr-2013 17:30, Cory Smelosky wrote: > Maybe it was just one of the more recent versions...it just felt like I > was limited to what I could filter. For me it felt the other way around. Well, not so much what I could filter (which is nearly everything), but the later versions allowed a bit better 'filter management' (searching through them, for one). What are you trying to achieve? For instance, I filter this list by specifically going for the "List-Id" header attribute. (I do the same for others.) That usually works fine for me. - MG From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 11:01:58 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 16:01:58 -0000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> <51716912.5020202@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, MG wrote: > > On 19-apr-2013 17:30, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> Maybe it was just one of the more recent versions...it just felt like I >> was limited to what I could filter. > > For me it felt the other way around. Well, not so much what I could > filter (which is nearly everything), but the later versions allowed > a bit better 'filter management' (searching through them, for one). > > What are you trying to achieve? For instance, I filter this list > by specifically going for the "List-Id" header attribute. (I do > the same for others.) That usually works fine for me. > I stopped using Thunderbird so that's not really an issue anymore. > - MG > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From sales at elecplus.com Fri Apr 19 11:03:40 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:03:40 -0500 Subject: Waste Management (the company) and vintage computers... In-Reply-To: <51715EBC.6090803@sbcglobal.net> References: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> <51715EBC.6090803@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <018601ce3d17$75657a90$60306fb0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Woyciesjes Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 10:12 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Waste Management (the company) and vintage computers... On 04/19/2013 10:58 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Anyone had any dealings with them in this regard? I expect that they > run a lot of local landfill sites (at least here in the US, but I > think they're a global company). > I guess it differs by community. Here, it is strictly forbidden to put ewaste out for the trash or into dumpsters. If it does wind up in the dumpsters, then it just gets buried in the daily mess. The city runs a recycle collection facility; you can drop anything off for free. Then they sell it by the pallet to the highest recycle bidder. Cindy Croxton ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6254 - Release Date: 04/18/13 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 11:08:51 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 12:08:51 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> On 04/19/2013 12:27 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: >> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the >> list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) >> >> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? > > There's probably more people that feel that way, but there are headers in > list messages to that purpose. This has come up in the past, and I don't > give you much of a chance it'll happen. If "that purpose" means automated filtering of email, yes, the headers work great, and are a much cleaner solution. But there are other reasons for subject tagging. Personally, I do not like filtering my mail into separate spools as it comes in, because, since I'm a busy person, I will never go and dig through them. It has to come into my main spool or I will never see it. Lists with subject-tagged messages stand out easily in my (rather large) inbound mail volume. And honestly, of the 25 or so mailing lists that I'm on, this is the ONLY ONE that doesn't do subject tagging. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 11:44:53 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 12:44:53 -0400 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> <51715B99.9070502@verizon.net> Message-ID: <51717485.1010100@neurotica.com> On 04/19/2013 11:32 AM, geneb wrote: >> The amproLB+ is the Z80 powered board. The cpu is without DMA and not fast >> enough to do 1.44. >> The drives are Sony 70s (80tr, 2 side, 782kb format). They are older PC >> drives from the time when >> 3.5" floppies had a drive select switch or jumper like the 5.25 units did. >> Very reliable too. > > Rats. Finding 720k drives these days is nearly impossible and when you can > find them, the seller prices them as if they're made from palladium and > coated with unicorn tears. whale oil -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 11:46:23 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 16:46:23 -0000 Subject: floppies References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> <51715B99.9070502@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: > > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, allison wrote: > >>> >> The amproLB+ is the Z80 powered board. The cpu is without DMA and not fast >> enough to do 1.44. >> The drives are Sony 70s (80tr, 2 side, 782kb format). They are older PC >> drives from the time when >> 3.5" floppies had a drive select switch or jumper like the 5.25 units did. >> Very reliable too. > > Rats. Finding 720k drives these days is nearly impossible and when you > can find them, the seller prices them as if they're made from palladium > and coated with unicorn tears. > Hmmm. Finding the disks must be easier than the drives! I have a bunch of 720k 3.5" disks. > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 11:55:38 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 16:55:38 -0000 Subject: Sights in NYC? References: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Jason McBrien wrote: > > I forgot about the math museum, we're definitely going to check that out. > Also not computer related but somewhat geeky - I'm going on a free > forgotten-ny tour. They show the history of various neighborhoods, focusing > more on infrastructure, showing where roads have been diverted, rivers > buried, buildings re-purposed - that kind of trainspotter-ish stuff. > That sounds rather interesting! > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:07 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > >> The Museum of math is not quite computing but is supposed to be great. >> On Apr 18, 2013 12:33 PM, "Jason McBrien" wrote: >> >>> I'll be taking an extended trip to NYC next week - are there any >>> retrocomputing related sights to see? Museum installations or whatnot? >>> >> > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 12:03:59 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Waste Management (the company) and vintage computers... In-Reply-To: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> References: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130419095115.E97347@shell.lmi.net> "Waste management!" ("waste" as a verb, not adjective) is as strong an imperative as "Defenestrate college administrators!" On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > Anyone had any dealings with them in this regard? I expect that they run a > lot of local landfill sites (at least here in the US, but I think they're a > global company). New Jersey. and often match the stereotype (cf. Rodney Dangerfield (Thornton Melon) in "Back To School") "There's the long-term costs, such as waste disposal. I don't know if you're familiar with who runs that business... but I assure you it's not the boy scouts." > I've got a contact at my local one who tries to set aside for me anything > that they think I might find interesting, but management policy is that > nothing can leave the site once dropped off, and it sounds like this rule > will be more strictly enforced in a couple of weeks' time following a site > audit. > I was considering contacting their management to see if there's any way to > officially secure vintage items, and was wondering if anyone else has done > this successfully? (In particular, it would be nice to know ahead of time > what their main concerns are - if it's a liability issue, say, or if they > perhaps see monetary value in e-waste) Be a company, NOT an individual, and negotiate for specialized (old computer) "toxic waste disposal and material recycling". ("Computers with floppy drives need special handling") They will need MAJOR re-assurance that the materials will be PROPERLY disposed of, that confidentiality of the data of the dumpers will be maintained (LIABILITY to their clients), and that they will not re-enter the waste stream. GOOD LUCK trying to reach those at that leve3l of decision making! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 12:05:57 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Waste Management (the company) and vintage computers... In-Reply-To: <51715EBC.6090803@sbcglobal.net> References: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> <51715EBC.6090803@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130419100517.J97347@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > I suspect that they won't budge. They are contracted to dispose of > items. Period. I don't think their customers would be thrilled if they > found them reselling/ giving for reuse items they thought were being > trashed. How big a mini or mainframe does it take to hold a body? From fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk Fri Apr 19 12:06:08 2013 From: fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk (Mateusz Kowalczyk) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 18:06:08 +0100 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <51715CC6.2070707@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51717980.6070104@fuuzetsu.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 19/04/13 16:44, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> >> On 04/19/2013 03:22 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 19 Apr 2013, at 01:11, "Mouse" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have >>>>> the name of the lis$ >>>> >>>>> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? >>>> >>>> Not me. Subject lines are already unwieldy enough; the >>>> envelope-from and the List-*: headers are plenty for any >>>> automated identification of list mail I want to do. Is it >>>> difficult for you to use them? >>> >>> Thunderbird was garbage and was limited at filtering. I have >>> since stopped using thunderbird. >>> >> >> I've never had an issue with TBird filtering. 'Course, I do the >> filtering on the email server now, and still use TBird for >> reading. >> > > That would explain it. My email server's server-side filtering > is...well, a bit...interesting to say the least. > >> >> -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- >> CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ >> --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - >> http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 >> >> "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem >> with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some >> guy on the internet. >> > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff > http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments > I simply filter on `To, From, Cc' contains `@classiccmp.org' in ThunderBird and it seems to work very well. - -- Mateusz K. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJRcXl/AAoJEM1mucMq2pqXG2sP/RO818mhs1FNzc70Ns4uwJDi UMOGoU+JFE+SSvcZLPNKz5oP3lHvVqE8XawEmFyRTmYFd1ETrEyaFFbznmJvgSyt jNa4D3zkKxcJNTg/bLnPRIKLRd5GrjuSAQQ6Eeavc0vBCFOKUD5PhoO16W8QseD1 vCwgAz2g5E7tf63wDfdVttR1juLfSoXHJ2XhZljAmVUuDPTQ3NWpLLFmtT+PoRoG 8wM3w7ikFmn0N3obqhYlbs0wUArtHJoLD7ukgo/l2udQyKKLaVMF9xjvoSMjgabi leF5U1meidwx/tmJCpI/am0WZMM9Orr2b0ZYia/n9RVd5S87JzJhXOgP6S6KGQWY 7Wx7242dPMOifjSxsX8BPwHh/yc4iGbLAOzMTggCEBIrsA2i5367g92HHewUgCzz SeC6A7/86LSdY4hMF2DVrEhgpjc32nlhA51GfnwiK5rSNoYq9WXTHfMP9sNGUJZq fL6qVP95J9E9Pzvcm4WVGnKtevDtZFRZgX33eXmFupt4b3BuJkrKj0gsesYszFjF NKvGgD5thochasZlCPipjnfknMXXWbEGRa8lM2okVDQug0UCOeClNNRduANJtxeI 7UW+z9fyppiEU2wuheHmh69u1pxIhFx6hqaxtoOAiG/DROf4ckiHPYM4LloU3fQ/ tEgczSUHdADPgDK0uTNe =5OgZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 12:13:52 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 13:13:52 -0400 Subject: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing In-Reply-To: <517167B7.90600@sbcglobal.net> References: <575131af0906301700p6e4f2af5x584e270e75b438e@mail.gmail.com> <517167B7.90600@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/508-mainframe-computer-history.html > > It's a little American-centric but it's not at all bad. Perhaps, but really past the early 1960s, the mainframe market *was* American-centric. The British and German mainframe computer industries pretty much dropped the ball, and were mostly insignificant by the 1970s. The Japanese, however, started to become a bit of a force in the late 1970s. The list seems a bit IBM-centric. I hate these list articles. Cheap journalism, basically. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 12:17:21 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> <51715B99.9070502@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20130419100625.F97347@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: > Rats. Finding 720k drives these days is nearly impossible and when you > can find them, the seller prices them as if they're made from palladium > and coated with unicorn tears. Most 1.4M drives can be trivially modified to be 720K only. start by blocking the light/photocell (if it has one) of the media sensor. You might need to strap the RWC signal (Many of the IBM PS/2 1.4M drives did not have a media sensor and relied on RWC signal from the FDC) From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Apr 19 12:16:17 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 13:16:17 -0400 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> <51715B99.9070502@verizon.net> Message-ID: <51717BE1.5060607@verizon.net> On 04/19/2013 11:32 AM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, allison wrote: > >>> >> The amproLB+ is the Z80 powered board. The cpu is without DMA and >> not fast enough to do 1.44. >> The drives are Sony 70s (80tr, 2 side, 782kb format). They are >> older PC drives from the time when >> 3.5" floppies had a drive select switch or jumper like the 5.25 units >> did. Very reliable too. > > Rats. Finding 720k drives these days is nearly impossible and when > you can find them, the seller prices them as if they're made from > palladium and coated with unicorn tears. > > g. > The standard 1.44 drives also do 720k. Just use the right media with the hole in the right place. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 12:24:02 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: <3C1812CF-A234-45AC-B329-B071A723BAC9@aracnet.com> References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> <3C1812CF-A234-45AC-B329-B071A723BAC9@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20130419102121.T97347@shell.lmi.net> > > > These machines need to find homes ASAP before my move, > > > otherwise they will be headed to goodwill > > While I don't mind someone occasionally plugging a sale for their own > > gear, I /don't/ like see this sort of remark. "Buy my stuff or the > > [insert name] gets it!" On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Actually it tends to mirror my thought on the subject in spite of my > having systems that I need to get rid of at some point. > Offer them for free for local pickup before threatening to scape them. That doesn't work as well when the actual goal is to get people to panic about their possible fate and spend money. If the real concern is disposal "to good home", then "free pickup" is more appropriate than "buy it or the cat dies!" From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 12:25:51 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? In-Reply-To: <3f394d$2ktu5q@fipsb02.cogeco.net> References: <516FFE9F.9010003@telegraphics.com.au> <201304181552.r3IFqfZU075828@mx1.ezwind.net> <51701F35.7090109@neurotica.com> <3f394d$2ktu5q@fipsb02.cogeco.net> Message-ID: <20130419102458.L97347@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Charles E. Fox wrote: > While I don't doubt that a $100 K scanner can do good work > with well shot home movies, about 90 percent > of the footage I have seen in the thirty five years I have been > transferring this stuff has been out of focus, poorly lit, scratched, > badly framed, (upside down even,) and so far no one has complained of > the quality I get with my projector > to Buhl lens system to video camera. Sooner or later we are going to > run out of 8mm films to transfer. and it > would take a long time to recover $100K at ten cents a foot for film. 'twould seem that the MAIN use would be for large collections of 16mm. From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Apr 19 12:33:54 2013 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 14:33:54 -0300 Subject: MCA licensing (was: Public mainframe system) In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D932C3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D932C3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201304191734.r3JHYA8r028909@mx1.ezwind.net> Ian King, among others, mentioned: > ISTR that they also overreacted to their blunder on the ISA bus (they > reserved no licensing rights) and overcompensated by demanding > huge fees to license MCA. Third parties said, no thanks.... This was just the first battle of the war. Though IBM had no patents associated with the PC or XT, they did have some (seven in Brazil, for example) for the AT. They spent the first half of the 1990s going after chipset makers (practically all in Japan at that time) to get royalties on those and, more importantly, get them to license other patents (whether relevant or not) that weren't going to expire in 2000 and 2001. Having achieved that goal, they spent the second half of the 1990s going after the PC makers themselves. This was a long time ago, so I don't remember all the details. Most of the patents were just silly in that they described stuff that the Apple II already did, like splitting a screen into a graphics part and a text part. Others were trivial to eliminate, like the algorithm to detect 40 vs 80 track floppies by moving to track 60, going back 59 tracks and checking to see if we got to track 0 or not. Most BIOSes just ask the user instead. The ISA related patents are the ones I remember the least. I think there was one related to having both latched and unlatched versions of some address bits. And the other was about the MASTER signal, which not only didn't really work but was shamelessly copied from an Intel application note for the Multibus. Anyway, as far as I know IBM has made as much money from PC patents as it would have if its MCA strategy had been totally successful. And though the original patents have now all expired, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the money is still coming in. -- Jecel From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 12:37:05 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 17:37:05 -0000 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <668B9300-5ECD-4E09-909B-0FA40C8E4492@gewt.net> On 19 Apr 2013, at 12:08, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > On 04/19/2013 12:27 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: >>> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the >>> list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) >>> >>> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? >> >> There's probably more people that feel that way, but there are headers in >> list messages to that purpose. This has come up in the past, and I don't >> give you much of a chance it'll happen. > > If "that purpose" means automated filtering of email, yes, the headers work > great, and are a much cleaner solution. > > But there are other reasons for subject tagging. Personally, I do not like > filtering my mail into separate spools as it comes in, because, since I'm a > busy person, I will never go and dig through them. It has to come into my > main spool or I will never see it. Lists with subject-tagged messages stand > out easily in my (rather large) inbound mail volume. That's why I prefer it too, it stands out and I easily know which list it's from. > > And honestly, of the 25 or so mailing lists that I'm on, this is the ONLY > ONE that doesn't do subject tagging. I'm on less?but that still holds true for me. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 12:39:16 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51715D27.4090600@sbcglobal.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> <51715D27.4090600@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130419103844.U97347@shell.lmi.net> > On 04/19/2013 06:14 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > > Who's on first. On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > I don't know. THIRD BASE! > That's what I asked you, From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 19 12:56:18 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 13:56:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201304191756.NAA01600@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > And honestly, of the 25 or so mailing lists that I'm on, this is the > ONLY ONE that doesn't do subject tagging. I'm not sure whether that's a reason to do it or a reason to not do it. And my experience is quite the opposite. I did a quick look over my incoming mail since beginning of Sunday (that's when I roll over my incoming mail archive). Out of 854 messages, almost all of them list traffic (19 different List-Id: headers), I see, if I've counted right, 27 messages from 5 distinct lists with subject tags. I may have missed some, but not very many. I like it that way. Subject tags don't bother me enough for me to go to the trouble of making my software strip them, but I don't like them; "mildly annoying" is probably about right. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 19 13:14:49 2013 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 20:14:49 +0200 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51718999.1010108@xs4all.nl> On 2013-04-19 19:00, dwight elvey wrote: > > For the 16 hole punches, I'm asking $35 plus postage.Dwight I might be interested in an unpunch. Fred Jan From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 19 13:29:47 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:29:47 -0700 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? (email clients, request for CCTALK: for filtering in title) In-Reply-To: <51717980.6070104@fuuzetsu.co.uk> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <51715CC6.2070707@sbcglobal.net> <51717980.6070104@fuuzetsu.co.uk> Message-ID: <51718D1B.7080101@jwsss.com> On 4/19/2013 10:06 AM, Mateusz Kowalczyk wrote: >>> Thunderbird was garbage and was limited at filtering. I have >>> >>>since stopped using thunderbird. >>> >>> >> >> >> >>I've never had an issue with TBird filtering. 'Course, I do the >> >>filtering on the email server now, and still use TBird for >> >>reading. >> >> > > > >That would explain it. My email server's server-side filtering > >is...well, a bit...interesting to say the least. I do my filtering on this list with thunderbird. It does 100% on what was mentioned later in the thread. The place I'm actually having trouble is with the filtering on google. I have a to:from:cc:bcc filter on both list names and it misses about 3 or 4 message a day, and leaves them "unarchived". I take the list both places in order to have both a single archive (I sort messages in the cctalk by relevance / reference value / plonk with thunderbird manually). I use a feed into a virtual machine running procmail / fetchmail / dovecot / imap / pop3 to take off the feeds from all of my emails into one system. All are archived that way for whatever I need. ONly problem I have is I don't run any spam filtering so have to be careful of what addresses I use, because I whitelist everything with filters. Off topic, but thought I'd speak up, Thunderbird was neglected then improved and now is probably headed for neglect because noone pays to advertise thru it. I prefer using it because the files are all essentially flat searchable ascii and easy to search with any tool I wish, besides the searcher by thunderbird. thanks Jim From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 13:32:14 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 18:32:14 -0000 Subject: A Complete History Of Mainframe Computing References: <575131af0906301700p6e4f2af5x584e270e75b438e@mail.gmail.com> <517167B7.90600@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <9AE3DB75-89B5-4B3D-BE11-7E0A33DE2E3C@gewt.net> On 19 Apr 2013, at 13:13, "William Donzelli" wrote: > >> http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/508-mainframe-computer-history.html >> >> It's a little American-centric but it's not at all bad. > > Perhaps, but really past the early 1960s, the mainframe market *was* > American-centric. The British and German mainframe computer industries > pretty much dropped the ball, and were mostly insignificant by the > 1970s. The Japanese, however, started to become a bit of a force in > the late 1970s. > > The list seems a bit IBM-centric. Yeah?no mention of a DEC-10/20?! > > I hate these list articles. Cheap journalism, basically. > > -- > Will From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 19 13:38:03 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 12:38:03 -0600 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51715C43.5040700@sbcglobal.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <51715C43.5040700@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I'm the moderator of this list and you're all fired! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Apr 19 13:50:52 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 14:50:52 -0400 Subject: Waste Management (the company) and vintage computers... In-Reply-To: <20130419100517.J97347@shell.lmi.net> References: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> <51715EBC.6090803@sbcglobal.net> <20130419100517.J97347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5171920C.2040802@verizon.net> On 04/19/2013 01:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> I suspect that they won't budge. They are contracted to dispose of >> items. Period. I don't think their customers would be thrilled if they >> found them reselling/ giving for reuse items they thought were being >> trashed. > How big a mini or mainframe does it take to hold a body? > > Standard 6foot box... err rack. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 13:51:41 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: <51717BE1.5060607@verizon.net> References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> <51715B99.9070502@verizon.net> <51717BE1.5060607@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20130419114844.O97347@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, allison wrote: > The standard 1.44 drives also do 720k. Just use the right media with > the hole in the right place. "standard"??!? That might preclude some IBM 1.4M drives, particularly PS/2. OK, you can get away with saying that those are NOT "standard" They did not HAVE the media sensor, and relied on RWC (Reduced Write Current) signal from the FDC, instead of in-drive sensor and switching. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 19 14:18:12 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 12:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: <20130419102121.T97347@shell.lmi.net> References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> <3C1812CF-A234-45AC-B329-B071A723BAC9@aracnet.com> <20130419102121.T97347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> These machines need to find homes ASAP before my move, >>>> otherwise they will be headed to goodwill >>> While I don't mind someone occasionally plugging a sale for their own >>> gear, I /don't/ like see this sort of remark. "Buy my stuff or the >>> [insert name] gets it!" > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Actually it tends to mirror my thought on the subject in spite of my >> having systems that I need to get rid of at some point. >> Offer them for free for local pickup before threatening to scape them. > > That doesn't work as well when the actual goal is to get people to panic > about their possible fate and spend money. > If the real concern is disposal "to good home", then "free pickup" > is more appropriate than "buy it or the cat dies!" Being the Drama Queen that he is, it's ALL about the "Buy this magazine or we'll shoot this dog." kind of thing. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 19 14:18:57 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 20:18:57 +0100 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: <20130419102121.T97347@shell.lmi.net> References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> <3C1812CF-A234-45AC-B329-B071A723BAC9@aracnet.com> <20130419102121.T97347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <038f01ce3d32$bf0862a0$3d1927e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 19 April 2013 18:24 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI > > > > > These machines need to find homes ASAP before my move, otherwise > > > > they will be headed to goodwill > > > While I don't mind someone occasionally plugging a sale for their > > > own gear, I /don't/ like see this sort of remark. "Buy my stuff or > > > the [insert name] gets it!" > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Actually it tends to mirror my thought on the subject in spite of my > > having systems that I need to get rid of at some point. > > Offer them for free for local pickup before threatening to scape them. > > That doesn't work as well when the actual goal is to get people to panic > about their possible fate and spend money. > If the real concern is disposal "to good home", then "free pickup" > is more appropriate than "buy it or the cat dies!" Kittens and puppies are better than cats for these purposes. :-) From evan at snarc.net Fri Apr 19 14:40:44 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 19:40:44 +0000 Subject: Sights in NYC? Message-ID: <530157543-1366400444-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1115209216-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry> Come see our computer museum here in New Jersey! We're about a brief train or rental car trip from the city. Ping me for details and I'll arrange a tour for you. - Evan ------Original Message------ From: b4 at gewt.net Subject: Re: Sights in NYC? Sent: Apr 19, 2013 1:59 PM On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Jason McBrien wrote: > > I forgot about the math museum, we're definitely going to check that out. > Also not computer related but somewhat geeky - I'm going on a free > forgotten-ny tour. They show the history of various neighborhoods, focusing > more on infrastructure, showing where roads have been diverted, rivers > buried, buildings re-purposed - that kind of trainspotter-ish stuff. > That sounds rather interesting! > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 3:07 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > >> The Museum of math is not quite computing but is supposed to be great. >> On Apr 18, 2013 12:33 PM, "Jason McBrien" wrote: >> >>> I'll be taking an extended trip to NYC next week - are there any >>> retrocomputing related sights to see? Museum installations or whatnot? >>> >> > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 19 14:41:45 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:41:45 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <20130419103844.U97347@shell.lmi.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> <51715D27.4090600@sbcglobal.net> <20130419103844.U97347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> On 04/19/2013 01:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On 04/19/2013 06:14 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >>> Who's on first. > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> I don't know. > > THIRD BASE! > What? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 14:53:45 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 20:53:45 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> <517035C1.3060200@gmail.com> <5170F7EA.5070709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5171A0C9.1020505@gmail.com> On 19/04/2013 15:16, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave wrote: > >>> The hard part (at least from my standpoint) is getting your hands on >>> the IBM mainframe to begin with. >> >> MP3000 come up from time to time on E-Bay and are reasonably cheap. >> Finding an OS to run on one is harder. You can connect a real 3270 to >> Hercules. >>> > Yeah. I'm discovering that finding operating systems for IBM hardware > is problematic. Does Hercules have the OS that was running on the > 4331-K2 circa 1986? Hercules has NO OS's, its sipped as a bare metal emulator. >>> I recently saw pictures on the VCF of a 3270 keyboard a guy had (or >>> was in the process of) hacking to work on a PC. >> >> I have a couple of Nokia 122 key keyboards that plug straight into a >> PC. Like the one at the bottom of here:- >> >> http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm > > Now THAT is a labor of love. Awesome site. Bookmarked! > It really is..... > g. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 14:55:23 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 12:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MCA licensing (was: Public mainframe system) In-Reply-To: <201304191734.r3JHYA8r028909@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D932C3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201304191734.r3JHYA8r028909@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20130419125132.R97347@shell.lmi.net> > > ISTR that they also overreacted to their blunder on the ISA bus (they > > reserved no licensing rights) and overcompensated by demanding > > huge fees to license MCA. Third parties said, no thanks.... On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > This was just the first battle of the war. Though IBM had no patents > associated with the PC or XT, ?? I remember Lee Felsenstein searching for "prior art" to overturn some. Such as using 2 16bit/pair-of-8bit registers to hold the coordinates of upper left and lower right of box/area of screen. > Having achieved that goal, they spent the second half of the 1990s going > after the PC makers themselves. In the 1980s, they went after copyright infringement for BIOS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 19 14:58:25 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:58:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201304191958.PAA02127@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > But there are other reasons for subject tagging. :0f * ^List-Id: .* |sed -e 's/^Subject: /& [cctalk] /' (warning, written off the cuff and untested, but something along those lines should work - might need care to avoid cascaded tags in replies). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 14:59:18 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 12:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <668B9300-5ECD-4E09-909B-0FA40C8E4492@gewt.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <668B9300-5ECD-4E09-909B-0FA40C8E4492@gewt.net> Message-ID: <20130419125623.C97347@shell.lmi.net> > > Lists with subject-tagged messages stand > > out easily in my (rather large) inbound mail volume. > That's why I prefer it too, it stands out and I easily know which list > it's from. > > And honestly, of the 25 or so mailing lists that I'm on, this is the ONLY > > ONE that doesn't do subject tagging. > I'm on less?but that still holds true for me. in which case, it ALREADY stands out and lets you know which list it's from. "no tag? that is CCTALK." However, I AM on more than one untagged list. I would prefer tags, but nowhere near as strongly as some who REALLY STRONGLY don't want them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 19 15:01:32 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 16:01:32 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? (email clients, request for CCTALK: for filtering in title) In-Reply-To: <51718D1B.7080101@jwsss.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <51715CC6.2070707@sbcglobal.net> <51717980.6070104@fuuzetsu.co.uk> <51718D1B.7080101@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5171A29C.802@sbcglobal.net> On 04/19/2013 02:29 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > On 4/19/2013 10:06 AM, Mateusz Kowalczyk wrote: >>>> Thunderbird was garbage and was limited at filtering. I have >>>> >>>since stopped using thunderbird. >>>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>I've never had an issue with TBird filtering. 'Course, I do the >>> >>filtering on the email server now, and still use TBird for >>> >>reading. >>> >> >> > >> >That would explain it. My email server's server-side filtering >> >is...well, a bit...interesting to say the least. > I do my filtering on this list with thunderbird. It does 100% on what > was mentioned later in the thread. The place I'm actually having > trouble is with the filtering on google. I have a to:from:cc:bcc filter I have this filter in GMail, which works fine for me: Matches: to:(cctech at classiccmp.org) Do this: Skip Inbox, Apply label "ClassicCMP", Never send it to Spam > ... I have a to:from:cc:bcc filter > on both list names and it misses about 3 or 4 message a day, and leaves > them "unarchived". I take the list both places in order to have both a > single archive (I sort messages in the cctalk by relevance / reference > value / plonk with thunderbird manually). > > I use a feed into a virtual machine running procmail / fetchmail / > dovecot / imap / pop3 to take off the feeds from all of my emails into > one system. All are archived that way for whatever I need. > > ONly problem I have is I don't run any spam filtering so have to be > careful of what addresses I use, because I whitelist everything with > filters. > > Off topic, but thought I'd speak up, Thunderbird was neglected then > improved and now is probably headed for neglect because noone pays to > advertise thru it. I prefer using it because the files are all > essentially flat searchable ascii and easy to search with any tool I > wish, besides the searcher by thunderbird. > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 15:12:25 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:12:25 -0500 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> On 04/19/2013 11:08 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Personally, I do not like filtering my mail into separate spools as it comes in, because, since I'm a > busy person, I will never go and dig through them. That's the reason why I have 18,131 unread messages in my classiccmp folder* :-) * what did we call things before they were folders? I always think of it as a [MS] Windows term, but I can't think what the convention for "a group of related stuff" was (aside from directories for files on disk, of course) FWIW I don't like tagging; any sane email client can filter by other means anyway, and it just takes up space in the subject line. J. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 15:15:42 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 16:15:42 -0400 Subject: Waste Management (the company) and vintage computers... In-Reply-To: <5171920C.2040802@verizon.net> References: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> <51715EBC.6090803@sbcglobal.net> <20130419100517.J97347@shell.lmi.net> <5171920C.2040802@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5171A5EE.4060600@gmail.com> allison wrote: > On 04/19/2013 01:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>> I suspect that they won't budge. They are contracted to dispose of >>> items. Period. I don't think their customers would be thrilled if they >>> found them reselling/ giving for reuse items they thought were being >>> trashed. >> How big a mini or mainframe does it take to hold a body? >> >> > Standard 6foot box... err rack. Less, if you do some chopping first. Peace... Sridhar From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 15:24:56 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 16:24:56 -0400 Subject: Waste Management (the company) and vintage computers... In-Reply-To: <20130419100517.J97347@shell.lmi.net> References: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> <51715EBC.6090803@sbcglobal.net> <20130419100517.J97347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <09C05132-FCD3-415F-93BC-2A5AFD2792C4@gmail.com> On Apr 19, 2013, at 1:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> I suspect that they won't budge. They are contracted to dispose of >> items. Period. I don't think their customers would be thrilled if they >> found them reselling/ giving for reuse items they thought were being >> trashed. > > How big a mini or mainframe does it take to hold a body? It depends, what are we calling a "mini" or a "mainframe"? - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 19 15:29:32 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 13:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <51715C43.5040700@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Richard wrote: > I'm the moderator of this list and you're all fired! > \o/ You know what this means, don't you?! THE DRINKS ARE ON RICHARD! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Apr 19 15:29:38 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:29:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: <20130419102121.T97347@shell.lmi.net> References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> <3C1812CF-A234-45AC-B329-B071A723BAC9@aracnet.com> <20130419102121.T97347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> These machines need to find homes ASAP before my move, >>>> otherwise they will be headed to goodwill >>> While I don't mind someone occasionally plugging a sale for their own >>> gear, I /don't/ like see this sort of remark. "Buy my stuff or the >>> [insert name] gets it!" > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Actually it tends to mirror my thought on the subject in spite of my >> having systems that I need to get rid of at some point. >> Offer them for free for local pickup before threatening to scape them. > > That doesn't work as well when the actual goal is to get people to panic > about their possible fate and spend money. > If the real concern is disposal "to good home", then "free pickup" > is more appropriate than "buy it or the cat dies!" This was my point exactly. To me at least, this is similar to those emotional advertisements that want you to send them money. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 15:38:15 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 21:38:15 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> <517035C1.3060200@gmail.com> <5170F7EA.5070709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5171AB37.3010000@gmail.com> On 19/04/2013 15:16, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave wrote: > >>> The hard part (at least from my standpoint) is getting your hands on >>> the IBM mainframe to begin with. >> >> MP3000 come up from time to time on E-Bay and are reasonably cheap. >> Finding an OS to run on one is harder. You can connect a real 3270 to >> Hercules. >>> > Yeah. I'm discovering that finding operating systems for IBM hardware > is problematic. Does Hercules have the OS that was running on the > 4331-K2 circa 1986? That box could just about run all the IBM 370 operating systems that were current at that time. I would have thought around 1986 it would most likely be running DOS/VSE as for example as per:- http://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/ShowDoc.wss?docURL=/common/ssi/rep_ca/1/897/ENUS286-331/index.html&lang=en&request_locale=en The 4331 was aimed at smaller sites most of who ran DOS. It could also have been running VM/SP R4 or possibly MVS/SP. MVS/SP is unlikely as its really overkill for the 4331 and it requires CKD DASD which can be formatted with a range of sector sizes. The 4331 was usually ordered with FBA DASD such as these :- http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3310.html and MVS won't run on these DASD. I think the only freely available OS that runs on FBA DASD will be from the DOS family. VM/370 and MVS 3.8J both require CKD disks. > >>> I recently saw pictures on the VCF of a 3270 keyboard a guy had (or >>> was in the process of) hacking to work on a PC. >> >> I have a couple of Nokia 122 key keyboards that plug straight into a >> PC. Like the one at the bottom of here:- >> >> http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm > > Now THAT is a labor of love. Awesome site. Bookmarked! > > g. > From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Apr 19 15:45:46 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:45:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Richard wrote: > Tothwolf writes: > >> Maybe I'm the only one who gets annoyed with this sort of remark though... > > If it bothers you so much, then buy them. [Since others won't know why Richard made this remark, I'll post my reply here. Personally, I'd rather he take this off-list and go ahead and rant at me and get it out of his system instead of harboring some sort of resentment and sniping at me, but c'est la vie...] Richard, that was 7 months ago. How long are you going to continue? Yes I publicly called out Robert on September 18, 2012 for his remark that was was going to scrap (sell for scrap metal) a perfectly good Sequent SE20 ["Sequent SE20 any interest?"] if someone didn't buy it from him. No, I wasn't aware at the time that Robert was a good friend of yours. Further, at the time I replied, I saw very very few emails from Robert in the recent list archives, and I mistakenly thought he was just out to troll the list (as a lot of others had done and continue to do). Had I seen Robert's earlier posts from years ago, I would have probably toned down what I wrote a little more (yes, more...I discarded the first couple of drafts). While I've personally long since moved on with things, I still do not understand why you took it so personally and still seem to harbor resentment at me for airing my own thoughts regarding Robert's comments. In fact, despite me asking you directly, you still won't tell me why you took my comments so personally. What seems even more odd (to me at least) is that you and I had been on very good terms for better than what, ~10 years? prior, and considering our past interactions I was shocked at your response. Maybe you are right, maybe I don't know you as well as I thought I did, but how is sniping at me whenever you get a chance doing anything good for anyone (or the list)? If it will finally put a stop to this, then I'll post this here too. Robert, I'm sorry I was so harsh in my replies regarding the SE20. Had I realized at the time that you had been more active on classiccmp in the past and were not just here trolling I'd have responded very differently. >From your replies (both on and off-list) it seemed to me that you had already moved on after our rather "lively" discussion, but if it is still bothering you, I apologize for being so harsh. From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 19 15:51:09 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 16:51:09 -0400 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9DA41C614BA246F59AB1253531742EA1@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 4:08 AM Subject: Re: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Steven Landon wrote: > >> These machines need to find homes ASAP before my move, >> otherwise they will be headed to goodwill > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > While I don't mind someone occasionally plugging a sale for their own > gear, I /don't/ like see this sort of remark. > > "Buy my stuff or the [insert name] gets it!" > > Of course we know Goodwill junks (scraps, dumpsters) the computers they > get that can't run Windows 7 or newer. That's their stated policy now > because they supposedly don't want people returning a computer and > bitching that it can't run the latest version of Windows. > > Maybe I'm the only one who gets annoyed with this sort of remark though... This jerk says that when sales are slow, he never junks anything. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Apr 19 15:55:44 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:55:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: <517158D5.10709@gmail.com> References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> <517158D5.10709@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/19/2013 03:08 AM, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Steven Landon wrote: >> >>> These machines need to find homes ASAP before my move, >>> otherwise they will be headed to goodwill >> >> Of course we know Goodwill junks (scraps, dumpsters) the computers they >> get that can't run Windows 7 or newer. That's their stated policy now >> because they supposedly don't want people returning a computer and >> bitching that it can't run the latest version of Windows. > > Hmm, I asked my local one a few weeks back about vintage stuff and it > sounded like they didn't have a policy in place at all (but they also > said that although they get old console cartridges in from time to time, > they don't ever remember anyone donating any kind of complete vintage > system, so perhaps it's something that's just never come up) > > I have seen various other things for sale that someone could easily > mistake for being capable of something for which it isn't (e.g. a > Betamax video recorder a little while back), so I'm surprised that > there's a policy on computers when other things are left to the staff's > judgement. (Although I *can* imagine Goodwills in more tech-rich areas > getting flooded with ten year old PCs, say, and so they might benefit > from a "no computers" policy) It could very well be that Goodwill in some communities does things differently. When I inquired awhile back as to why they no longer had older computers, I was told that it was now their corporate policy that anything that could not run Windows 7 was to be scrapped and disposed of. When I asked about non-PCs, they said that those too were junked. They also supposedly have an agreement with Microsoft that allows them to install Windows 7, but not say Windows XP, 95, 3.1, etc (despite the fact that many older PCs have a license sticker on them) and trying to deal with returns and complains because something wouldn't run the latest version of [software program/popular game] was "too much trouble". From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Apr 19 16:04:18 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:04:18 +0100 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> <51715D27.4090600@sbcglobal.net> <20130419103844.U97347@shell.lmi.net> <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 19 April 2013 20:41, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 04/19/2013 01:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>> On 04/19/2013 06:14 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >>>> >>>> Who's on first. >> >> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>> >>> I don't know. >> >> >> THIRD BASE! >> > What? What's on second. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Gregor Samsa awoke one morning to discover that he had been transformed into a giant cockroach." Nah, it's too good. --Max Bialystock From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Apr 19 16:04:11 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 17:04:11 -0400 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: <20130419114844.O97347@shell.lmi.net> References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> <51715B99.9070502@verizon.net> <51717BE1.5060607@verizon.net> <20130419114844.O97347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5171B14B.90809@verizon.net> On 04/19/2013 02:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, allison wrote: >> The standard 1.44 drives also do 720k. Just use the right media with >> the hole in the right place. > "standard"??!? > That might preclude some IBM 1.4M drives, particularly PS/2. Some did some don't. Things that are absolute never are. there where at least three typce of IBM, some only 720, some only 1.44 (though the could be convinced...) and the dual version. Having had PS2 as in the early base 8088 version and the non ISA bus versions. Much weirdness. > OK, you can get away with saying that those are NOT "standard" > > They did not HAVE the media sensor, and relied on RWC (Reduced Write > Current) signal from the FDC, instead of in-drive sensor and switching. > ;) Fred you and I know using standard and floppies in the same sentence is asking for pain. PC (help me here) standards were best at making it worse. Allison From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 16:07:33 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 17:07:33 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <5170F997.4030208@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> <51708958.6040101@neurotica.com> <5170F997.4030208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8BF4A508-AF86-402A-8507-947903B51F4E@gmail.com> On Apr 19, 2013, at 4:00 AM, Dave wrote: > On 19/04/2013 01:01, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 04/18/2013 05:13 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>> NO NO NO NO NO! RG58 is 50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63.... >>> >>> What's the BNC for, then? As far as I knew, they only made >>> 50 and 75-ohm BNC jacks. Or did they just use 75 ohm ones >>> and hope the brief blip on the TDR didn't do too much to >>> the signal? >> >> All 3270 stuff uses BNC connectors. I don't know offhand which impedance of BNCs they use (they look like 50-ohm to me) but at those frequencies, a few MHz, the impedance bump really is minimal. >> > 50ohn and 75Ohm BNC look much the same to me. At one time the pins were different sizes but you needed a micrometer to tell. I think since 1978 they are the same size... That would be a surprise to me, but I suppose it's not impossible. I know we had a problem a few years back confusing 50 and 75 ohm N connectors; plug in the wrong one and you'll either potentially damage the receiving end or get an intermittent, hard-to-diagnose connection (and, obviously, impedance mismatch problems). Fortunately, we only had the latter, which is good because the receiving device was a very expensive network analyzer that we were renting, and we're a small company. The core problem turned out to be that someone had put both plugs into the same parts bin, and the tech making the cables was unaware, and it's damn near impossible to visually distinguish them without a side-by-side comparison. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 19 16:27:45 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 14:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <20130419125623.C97347@shell.lmi.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <668B9300-5ECD-4E09-909B-0FA40C8E4492@gewt.net> <20130419125623.C97347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Lists with subject-tagged messages stand >>> out easily in my (rather large) inbound mail volume. >> That's why I prefer it too, it stands out and I easily know which list >> it's from. >>> And honestly, of the 25 or so mailing lists that I'm on, this is the ONLY >>> ONE that doesn't do subject tagging. >> I'm on less?but that still holds true for me. > > in which case, it ALREADY stands out and lets you know which list it's > from. "no tag? that is CCTALK." > > However, I AM on more than one untagged list. > I would prefer tags, but nowhere near as strongly as some who REALLY > STRONGLY don't want them. > I vote that Jay tweaks the Python to randomly add the subject line tags. ...and maybe just add subject line tags with random contents...randomly. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From bear at typewritten.org Fri Apr 19 16:40:34 2013 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 14:40:34 -0700 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <20130419125623.C97347@shell.lmi.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <668B9300-5ECD-4E09-909B-0FA40C8E4492@gewt.net> <20130419125623.C97347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <05A58661-7039-4467-97EB-B7CB53F4F381@typewritten.org> On Apr 19, 2013, at 12:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I would prefer tags, but nowhere near as strongly as some who REALLY > STRONGLY don't want them. I sympathize with the need to manage a high volume of incoming mail. Is it not, however, sufficient to create a filter or delivery rule along the lines of if the List-Id: header contains cctech.classicmp.org (or cctalk), then move it to a separate folder? How is this not a trivial solution to the problem---one which doesn't require amending the subject line? ok bear. From lists at loomcom.com Fri Apr 19 16:43:33 2013 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 17:43:33 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130419214333.GA20280@mail.loomcom.com> * On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 03:12:25PM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > * what did we call things before they were folders? I always think of > it as a [MS] Windows term, but I can't think what the convention for > "a group of related stuff" was (aside from directories for files on > disk, of course) I always called them "mailboxes". Back in the good old days, of course, I only had one mailbox. Now I've got dozens. -Seth From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 19 16:44:44 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 14:44:44 -0700 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: <20130419100625.F97347@shell.lmi.net> References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> <51715B99.9070502@verizon.net> <20130419100625.F97347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5171BACC.2020902@sydex.com> On 04/19/2013 10:17 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: >> Rats. Finding 720k drives these days is nearly impossible and when you >> can find them, the seller prices them as if they're made from palladium >> and coated with unicorn tears. > > Most 1.4M drives can be trivially modified to be 720K only. start by > blocking the light/photocell (if it has one) of the media sensor. > You might need to strap the RWC signal > (Many of the IBM PS/2 1.4M drives did not have a media sensor and relied > on RWC signal from the FDC) Indeed, and some makes of 1.44M drives can even be jumpered to pass READY/ and/or DISK CHANGED/ signals as well. Block the density sensor and the host equipment can't tell the difference. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 16:47:22 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 14:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> <51715D27.4090600@sbcglobal.net> <20130419103844.U97347@shell.lmi.net> <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130419144643.Q2144@shell.lmi.net> > >>> Who's on first. > >> I don't know. > > > > THIRD BASE! > > > What? What's on second. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 19 16:47:46 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 14:47:46 -0700 Subject: MCA licensing In-Reply-To: <20130419125132.R97347@shell.lmi.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D932C3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201304191734.r3JHYA8r028909@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130419125132.R97347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5171BB82.7070705@sydex.com> On 04/19/2013 12:55 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> ISTR that they also overreacted to their blunder on the ISA bus (they >>> reserved no licensing rights) and overcompensated by demanding >>> huge fees to license MCA. Third parties said, no thanks.... A couple said "we'll try it". I think the Tandy 5000 was one such machine, but I believe MCA was only an option. One other maker tried it; was it AST? Neither system sold well. --Chuck From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 19 16:48:44 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 17:48:44 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <20130419125623.C97347@shell.lmi.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <668B9300-5ECD-4E09-909B-0FA40C8E4492@gewt.net> <20130419125623.C97347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5171BBBC.8080608@sbcglobal.net> On 04/19/2013 03:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Lists with subject-tagged messages stand >>> out easily in my (rather large) inbound mail volume. >> That's why I prefer it too, it stands out and I easily know which list >> it's from. >>> And honestly, of the 25 or so mailing lists that I'm on, this is the ONLY >>> ONE that doesn't do subject tagging. >> I'm on less?but that still holds true for me. > > in which case, it ALREADY stands out and lets you know which list it's > from. "no tag? that is CCTALK." > > However, I AM on more than one untagged list. > I would prefer tags, but nowhere near as strongly as some who REALLY > STRONGLY don't want them. > Yeah, I remember when this walk "debated" a few years ago... It's really no big deal. Any half-decent MUA can filter based upon a particular email address in the To, From, CC, of BCC fields. Even Eudora (I think.. ;) Subject tagging ain't gonna happen. Plus, if you're smart enough to resuscitate a classic computer, you should have enough brains to figure out how to add an email filter... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 19 16:49:59 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 17:49:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201304192149.RAA02709@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > That's the reason why I have 18,131 unread messages in my classiccmp > folder* :-) > * what did we call things before they were folders? I always think > of it as a [MS] Windows term, but I can't think what the convention > for "a group of related stuff" was (aside from directories for files > on disk, of course) As far as I can recall, there was no domain-independent term. For filesystem objects, they were "directories". For saved email, "mailboxes". Etc. Presenting them all as basically the same thing visually, which is closely related to using the same word for them, I too think of as Windows damage, but I don't know whether they invented it or merely popularized it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 16:58:02 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 17:58:02 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <201304191958.PAA02127@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <201304191958.PAA02127@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5171BDEA.6080704@neurotica.com> On 04/19/2013 03:58 PM, Mouse wrote: >> But there are other reasons for subject tagging. > > :0f > * ^List-Id: .* > |sed -e 's/^Subject: /& [cctalk] /' > > (warning, written off the cuff and untested, but something along those > lines should work - might need care to avoid cascaded tags in replies). Yes, I too am familiar with Procmail. It's nice, but it will not run in my configuration. I suppose I might be able to do the same thing with a Sieve script. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 16:58:56 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 17:58:56 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5171BE20.2000804@neurotica.com> On 04/19/2013 04:12 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/19/2013 11:08 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Personally, I do not like filtering my mail into separate spools as it >> comes in, because, since I'm a >> busy person, I will never go and dig through them. > > That's the reason why I have 18,131 unread messages in my classiccmp folder* :-) > > * what did we call things before they were folders? I always think of it as a > [MS] Windows term, but I can't think what the convention for "a group of > related stuff" was (aside from directories for files on disk, of course) > > FWIW I don't like tagging; any sane email client can filter by other means > anyway, and it just takes up space in the subject line. But....ummm....of course, yes, but, as you seem to have noticed above, *I* want it (and know I'm not going to get it) for reasons OTHER THAN automated sorting. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 17:00:14 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Waste Management (the company) and vintage computers... In-Reply-To: <09C05132-FCD3-415F-93BC-2A5AFD2792C4@gmail.com> References: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> <51715EBC.6090803@sbcglobal.net> <20130419100517.J97347@shell.lmi.net> <09C05132-FCD3-415F-93BC-2A5AFD2792C4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130419145941.J2144@shell.lmi.net> > >> I suspect that they won't budge. They are contracted to dispose of > >> items. Period. I don't think their customers would be thrilled if they > >> found them reselling/ giving for reuse items they thought were being > >> trashed. > > How big a mini or mainframe does it take to hold a body? > It depends, what are we calling a "mini" or a "mainframe"? They could be defined by how many bodies they hold. From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 17:16:56 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 18:16:56 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 19, 2013, at 16:12, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/19/2013 11:08 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Personally, I do not like filtering my mail into separate spools as it comes in, because, since I'm a >> busy person, I will never go and dig through them. > > That's the reason why I have 18,131 unread messages in my classiccmp folder* :-) > > * what did we call things before they were folders? I always think of it as a [MS] Windows term, but I can't think what the convention for "a group of related stuff" was (aside from directories for files on disk, of course) The Mac used the folder metaphor before Windows, since it makes sense when you're talking about files, but I don't know if anything predated that. - Dave From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 19 17:30:23 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:30:23 -0700 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <5171AB37.3010000@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> <517035C1.3060200@gmail.com> <5170F7EA.5070709@gmail.com> <5171AB37.3010000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5171C57F.7050802@jwsss.com> On 4/19/2013 1:38 PM, Dave wrote: > On 19/04/2013 15:16, geneb wrote: >> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave wrote: >> >>>> The hard part (at least from my standpoint) is getting your hands >>>> on the IBM mainframe to begin with. >>> >>> MP3000 come up from time to time on E-Bay and are reasonably cheap. >>> Finding an OS to run on one is harder. You can connect a real 3270 >>> to Hercules. >>>> Probably Linux is all one can run unless you have a lot of money to run Zos. I don't know how long you could legally run the demo Zvm download or if it runs on the MP3000, I'm guessing the chances are high not. >> Yeah. I'm discovering that finding operating systems for IBM >> hardware is problematic. Does Hercules have the OS that was running >> on the 4331-K2 circa 1986? > I don't know why the 4331 was picked, but made me think. The system that was probably better was the 4361 if one could lay hands on one. It had a storage director built in, and could run 3370's. If one had a 3420 + 2 or 3 3370's and the 4361, it was all about the same height and form factor and made for a deep freeze and a half to run a very nice VM system on. VM SP5 ran fine on that system. It also had 4 3270 builtin ports (or 6, don't recall) plus a port that had the console crap on the bottom of the screen. The top was a 3215 (maybe??) which had 20 lines rather than 24. You had a special keyboard with the buttons on one side to bring the power up, and IPL. Also the 3420 tape drive had the controller built in, so you didn't need a 3803 type box to run the drive. Basically a reel to reel with the reels horizontal. The one we had did 6250 as well, so two tapes would back up the system pretty much. > That box could just about run all the IBM 370 operating systems that > were current at that time. I would have thought around 1986 it would > most likely be running DOS/VSE as for example as per:- > > http://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/ShowDoc.wss?docURL=/common/ssi/rep_ca/1/897/ENUS286-331/index.html&lang=en&request_locale=en > > > The 4331 was aimed at smaller sites most of who ran DOS. It could also > have been running VM/SP R4 or possibly MVS/SP. MVS/SP is unlikely as > its really overkill for the 4331 and it requires CKD DASD which can be > formatted with a range of sector sizes. The 4331 was usually ordered > with FBA DASD such as these :- > > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3310.html > > and MVS won't run on these DASD. I think the only freely available OS > that runs on FBA DASD will be from the DOS family. VM/370 and MVS 3.8J > both require CKD disks. > >> >>>> I recently saw pictures on the VCF of a 3270 keyboard a guy had (or >>>> was in the process of) hacking to work on a PC. >>> >>> I have a couple of Nokia 122 key keyboards that plug straight into a >>> PC. Like the one at the bottom of here:- >>> >>> http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm >> >> Now THAT is a labor of love. Awesome site. Bookmarked! >> >> g. >> > > That keyboard site is very handy, thanks to the author. Jim From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 17:30:32 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:30:32 +0000 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? Message-ID: <1151444887-1366410633-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-654616111-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> In fairness a lot of times its a nondefault but mailing list per user configurable option. I think it isn't perhaps on this server or software but that would be one method of satisfying most. Its not a problem on a real computer or mail client worth a grain of salt however I'm often mobile and also can't view subfolders easily from this crapberry so having a subject line but keeping it in my main inbox would also benefit my ability to keep track of mailing lists and topics. Its also the reason I can't modify the original mail text I'm replying to half the time. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Apr 19 17:58:41 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 17:58:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/19/2013 11:08 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Personally, I do not like filtering my mail into separate spools as it >> comes in, because, since I'm a busy person, I will never go and dig >> through them. > > That's the reason why I have 18,131 unread messages in my classiccmp > folder* :-) > > * what did we call things before they were folders? I always think of it > as a [MS] Windows term, but I can't think what the convention for "a > group of related stuff" was (aside from directories for files on disk, > of course) Directories, mbox (mailbox) files, etc. > FWIW I don't like tagging; any sane email client can filter by other > means anyway, and it just takes up space in the subject line. Exactly. This is even more of a concern for those who still use an 80 column display. After all, this /is/ classiccmp, where even with all the web-forums out there, we are still using email ;) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 19 18:03:49 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 17:03:49 -0600 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <51715C43.5040700@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article , geneb writes: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Richard wrote: > > > I'm the moderator of this list and you're all fired! > > > \o/ > > You know what this means, don't you?! > > > THE DRINKS ARE ON RICHARD! If you visit my museum in Salt Lake City, I will happily buy you one drink. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 18:17:46 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 19:17:46 -0400 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <8BF4A508-AF86-402A-8507-947903B51F4E@gmail.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> <51708958.6040101@neurotica.com> <5170F997.4030208@gmail.com> <8BF4A508-AF86-402A-8507-947903B51F4E@gmail.com> Message-ID: > That would be a surprise to me, but I suppose it's not impossible. I > know we had a problem a few years back confusing 50 and 75 ohm N > connectors; plug in the wrong one and you'll either potentially damage > the receiving end or get an intermittent, hard-to-diagnose connection > (and, obviously, impedance mismatch problems). This is generally not a problem with BNC, unless they are cheap, picky connectors. It is a problem with N, however. Most BNCs can be sorted into 50 and 75 Ohm by looking to see if there is air around the female end. -- Will From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 19 19:43:22 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 00:43:22 +0000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> <51715D27.4090600@sbcglobal.net> <20130419103844.U97347@shell.lmi.net> <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5171E4AA.5060006@dunnington.plus.com> On 19/04/2013 19:41, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 04/19/2013 01:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On 04/19/2013 06:14 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >>>> Who's on first. >> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>> I don't know. >> >> THIRD BASE! >> > What? No. What is on second base. Who's on first. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 19:01:04 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 20:01:04 -0400 Subject: MCA licensing In-Reply-To: <5171BB82.7070705@sydex.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D932C3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201304191734.r3JHYA8r028909@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130419125132.R97347@shell.lmi.net> <5171BB82.7070705@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5171DAC0.4040601@neurotica.com> On 04/19/2013 05:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/19/2013 12:55 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> ISTR that they also overreacted to their blunder on the ISA bus (they >>>> reserved no licensing rights) and overcompensated by demanding >>>> huge fees to license MCA. Third parties said, no thanks.... > > A couple said "we'll try it". I think the Tandy 5000 was one such machine, > but I believe MCA was only an option. One other maker tried it; was it AST? > > Neither system sold well. Quite a few more than two made (licensed) boards, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 19:04:05 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 20:04:05 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <5171BBBC.8080608@sbcglobal.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <668B9300-5ECD-4E09-909B-0FA40C8E4492@gewt.net> <20130419125623.C97347@shell.lmi.net> <5171BBBC.8080608@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5171DB75.9080900@neurotica.com> On 04/19/2013 05:48 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>>> Lists with subject-tagged messages stand >>>> out easily in my (rather large) inbound mail volume. >>> That's why I prefer it too, it stands out and I easily know which list >>> it's from. >>>> And honestly, of the 25 or so mailing lists that I'm on, this is the ONLY >>>> ONE that doesn't do subject tagging. >>> I'm on less?but that still holds true for me. >> >> in which case, it ALREADY stands out and lets you know which list it's >> from. "no tag? that is CCTALK." >> >> However, I AM on more than one untagged list. >> I would prefer tags, but nowhere near as strongly as some who REALLY >> STRONGLY don't want them. >> > > Yeah, I remember when this walk "debated" a few years ago... It's really > no big deal. Any half-decent MUA can filter based upon a particular email > address in the To, From, CC, of BCC fields. Even Eudora (I think.. ;) > > Subject tagging ain't gonna happen. Plus, if you're smart enough to > resuscitate a classic computer, you should have enough brains to figure out > how to add an email filter... [head explodes] Is it really so difficult for people to understand that the people who want subject tagging DO NOT WANT IT FOR SORTING PURPOSES? WTF? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 19 19:12:10 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 18:12:10 -0600 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , Tothwolf writes: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Richard wrote: > > Tothwolf writes: > > > >> Maybe I'm the only one who gets annoyed with this sort of remark though... > > > > If it bothers you so much, then buy them. > > [Since others won't know why Richard made this remark, Apparently even you don't know why I made this remark. I make this remark now because you said the above, on the 19th of April. The rest of your message I'm not going to respond to because it has nothing to do with my my remark quoted above. I am simply responding to your comment. If someone owns something, then it is theirs to dispose of in any way they wish. That is what private property is all about. Should they decide to sell it, scrap it, burn it, smash it with a sledge hammer (VAX jousting, anyone?), that is their right and noone else has a right to tell them any differently. If you think that such things are precious and need to be protected, then do something about it. Buy them yourself. Start a kickstarter program to resuce them. Start an initiative to rescue them. Get sponsors at so-many-cents-a-mile and run in a marathon race to raise the money to save them. Cut lawns on weekends to raise a purchase fund. Anything. Just don't go bitching to the mailing list and then expect someone else to do it for you. End of mini-rant. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 20:11:31 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 21:11:31 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5171EB43.3070705@neurotica.com> On 04/19/2013 06:58 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 04/19/2013 11:08 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> Personally, I do not like filtering my mail into separate spools as it >>> comes in, because, since I'm a busy person, I will never go and dig >>> through them. >> >> That's the reason why I have 18,131 unread messages in my classiccmp >> folder* :-) >> >> * what did we call things before they were folders? I always think of it as >> a [MS] Windows term, but I can't think what the convention for "a group of >> related stuff" was (aside from directories for files on disk, of course) > > Directories, mbox (mailbox) files, etc. > >> FWIW I don't like tagging; any sane email client can filter by other means >> anyway, and it just takes up space in the subject line. > > Exactly. This is even more of a concern for those who still use an 80 column > display. After all, this /is/ classiccmp, where even with all the web-forums > out there, we are still using email ;) Wha..? Has email suddenly become passe' or something? Web fora are not an equivalent, or a replacement. They are fundamentally different. (as you know) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Apr 19 20:44:51 2013 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:44:51 -0300 Subject: MCA licensing (was: Public mainframe system) In-Reply-To: <20130419125132.R97347@shell.lmi.net> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <51701EAE.4060500@neurotica.com> <51702AA5.600@neurotica.com> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D932C3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201304191734.r3JHYA8r028909@mx1.ezwind.net> <20130419125132.R97347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201304200145.r3K1j2Qw078289@mx1.ezwind.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > > This was just the first battle of the war. Though IBM had no patents > > associated with the PC or XT, > ?? > I remember Lee Felsenstein searching for "prior art" to overturn some. > Such as using 2 16bit/pair-of-8bit registers to hold the coordinates of > upper left and lower right of box/area of screen. Thanks for the information. I would imagine that there were variations on what patents they obtained for different countries. The computer companies who asked me for a technical review were from Brazil. If you think reading patents in English is a pain, you can't imagine the horror that a translation to Portuguese by non technical people can be. They didn't use a single computer industry term in the whole text but made up their own vocabulary out of thin air. If the PC patents were anything like the seven I saw, finding prior art must have been trivial (though fruitless, in the case of my clients), since winning against IBM would have been more costly than caving in). > > Having achieved that goal, they spent the second half of the 1990s going > > after the PC makers themselves. > > In the 1980s, they went after copyright infringement for BIOS. The sued the three PC makers in Brazil in early 1984 (Softec, Scopus and Microtec). They dropped their suit after all three made rather trivial modifications to their BIOSes, however. Just switching around some pieces of code while keeping key entry points intact was enough to make them happy. None of that "clean room" stuff was needed. Interestingly enough, Scopus and Microtec were really afraid of Microsoft. So they didn't include the Basic ROMs, which some software needed in order to run. Instead, they would unofficially tell their clients to find a friend with a Softec machine and run this little program to dump the ROMs to floppy and then find another friend with an EPROM burner. They were pretty shocked when it was IBM that went after them instead. They had assumed that since IBM had published the commented source for the BIOS in their technical manual they weren't interested in protecting it. And note that software only became protected by copyright in Brazil in October of 1987, so IBM's threat was a pretty empty one. -- Jecel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 19 20:49:39 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 21:49:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <5171DB75.9080900@neurotica.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <668B9300-5ECD-4E09-909B-0FA40C8E4492@gewt.net> <20130419125623.C97347@shell.lmi.net> <5171BBBC.8080608@sbcglobal.net> <5171DB75.9080900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201304200149.VAA03652@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Plus, if you're smart enough to resuscitate a classic computer, you >> should have enough brains to figure out how to add an email >> filter... Lack of brains is not the only possible reason, there.... > Is it really so difficult for people to understand that the people > who want subject tagging DO NOT WANT IT FOR SORTING PURPOSES? Um, "email filter" could also mean something like the :0f procmail recipe I posted. (Of course, I don't know which meaning was intended there, but it's at least _possible_ it meant something compatible with your goals.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From kfergason at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 20:57:50 2013 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 20:57:50 -0500 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <5171E4AA.5060006@dunnington.plus.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> <51715D27.4090600@sbcglobal.net> <20130419103844.U97347@shell.lmi.net> <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> <5171E4AA.5060006@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <63A15EEA-4BD3-43CE-9CDE-9572D1BA98CC@gmail.com> On Apr 19, 2013, at 7:43 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 19/04/2013 19:41, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> On 04/19/2013 01:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> On 04/19/2013 06:14 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >>>>> Who's on first. >>> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>>> I don't know. >>> >>> THIRD BASE! >>> >> What? > > No. What is on second base. > Who's on first. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York I don't give a darn! From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Apr 19 21:11:59 2013 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:11:59 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> Message-ID: <201304200212.r3K2C2rS010542@rickmurphy.net> At 07:31 PM 4/18/2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: >Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of >the list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) > >Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? Nope. There's no reason for it. Every posting to the list has a header available that can be used for filtering. For this list, it's the following - List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Filter on List-Id. That's what it's for. Adding crap to the Subject header is for people stuck running MSexChange and other offensive incompatible mailers. -Rick From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 19 21:12:07 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:12:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201304200212.WAA03755@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > If someone owns something, then it is theirs to dispose of in any way > they wish. That is what private property is all about. Legally, yes. But there is a large difference between "legal" and "good", or even "legal" and "not scummy". Just because someone has a legal right to do something doesn't mean that doing it it shouldn't draw censure. If someone, oh, say, someone with a working ASR-33 chooses to, let's say, dissect it with a dremel and use the pieces as party favours, I won't say a word about it from a legal PoV. But I _will_ think, and quite likely say, it's a wasteful and scuzzy thing to do, and I will think less of such a person and quite likely refuse to sell to, help on the lists, buy from, etc, said person - as is _my_ legal right, a right I don't choose to exercise in most cases.... > If you think that such things are precious and need to be protected, If you don't, what are you on this list for? > then do something about it. Buy them yourself. [...] Anything. > Just don't go bitching to the mailing list and then expect someone > else to do it for you. I didn't write the text you're reacting to, so I can't know what was in its auhtor's mind. But criticism - such as mail on this list - is one of the first steps that can reasonably be taken upon discovering that someone (apparently) intends to do something undesirable. I don't see any reason to think that being critical of a potential actions means "expect[ing] someone else" to fix the issue; community censure is a reasonable next step after individual censure - assuming, of course, that the relevant community _does_, as a community, disapprove of the putative action. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 19 21:16:58 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <5171EB43.3070705@neurotica.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> <5171EB43.3070705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201304200216.WAA03782@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> After all, this /is/ classiccmp, where even with all the web-forums >> out there, we are still using email ;) > Wha..? Has email suddenly become passe' or something? Yes, for many people and purposes - or, rather, no, not "suddenly"; it has happened gradually over the last deacde or so. > Web fora are not an equivalent, or a replacement. A lot of people seem to consider them a functional equivalent, replacement, whatever, for many purposes. I don't like it any more than you seem to. But that's one of the directions the computer world has gone these days - and one of the reasons I'm getting more and more depressed about being more and more out of step with more and more of it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Apr 19 21:20:30 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 21:20:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Richard wrote: > Tothwolf writes: > >> [Since others won't know why Richard made this remark, > > Apparently even you don't know why I made this remark. I make this > remark now because you said the above, on the 19th of April. > > The rest of your message I'm not going to respond to because it has > nothing to do with my my remark quoted above. I am simply responding to > your comment. > > If someone owns something, then it is theirs to dispose of in any way > they wish. That is what private property is all about. Should they > decide to sell it, scrap it, burn it, smash it with a sledge hammer (VAX > jousting, anyone?), that is their right and noone else has a right to > tell them any differently. > > If you think that such things are precious and need to be protected, > then do something about it. Buy them yourself. Start a kickstarter > program to resuce them. Start an initiative to rescue them. Get > sponsors at so-many-cents-a-mile and run in a marathon race to raise the > money to save them. Cut lawns on weekends to raise a purchase fund. > > Anything. > > Just don't go bitching to the mailing list and then expect someone else > to do it for you. > > End of mini-rant. Well folks, I've tried to resolve this with Richard both on and off-list since September of last year, and given the response above I guess any further attempts would be a waste of time. Because I used to really enjoy having discussions with Richard I wanted to avoid doing this, but at a certain point one has to cut their losses... *plonk* [Richard, if and when you decide to let this old crap go and want to discuss stuff like adults, you've got my Gmail address and know how to contact me.] From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 21:38:19 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:38:19 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <201304200212.r3K2C2rS010542@rickmurphy.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304200212.r3K2C2rS010542@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <5171FF9B.9090507@neurotica.com> On 04/19/2013 10:11 PM, Rick Murphy wrote: >> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the >> list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) >> >> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? > > Nope. There's no reason for it. Wrong. > Every posting to the list has a header available that can be used for filtering. > For this list, it's the following - > > List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > Filter on List-Id. That's what it's for. That's waht List-Id headers are for, yes. They work GREAT for filtering. > Adding crap to the Subject header is > for people stuck running MSexChange and other offensive incompatible mailers. ...or for people who want it for something other than automated filtering, who are accustomed to seeing it for EVERY OTHER LIST AROUND, and just plain LIKE it. For example. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From useddec at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 21:40:45 2013 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 21:40:45 -0500 Subject: DEC BA350 etc and RZxx-xx drives Message-ID: I have about 25 BA350 style enclosures, BA35x power supplies, and RZ24,25,26, 28,29,40, etc. Some are in canisters, some are bare drives. I'm trying to clear a path and it's all in my way. Take one or all. shipping from IL, 61853. Please contact me off list Thanks, Paul From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 21:48:56 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:48:56 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <201304200216.WAA03782@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> <5171EB43.3070705@neurotica.com> <201304200216.WAA03782@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <51720218.5090101@neurotica.com> On 04/19/2013 10:16 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> After all, this /is/ classiccmp, where even with all the web-forums >>> out there, we are still using email ;) >> Wha..? Has email suddenly become passe' or something? > > Yes, for many people and purposes - or, rather, no, not "suddenly"; it > has happened gradually over the last deacde or so. Wow. I'm increasingly glad that I don't associate with very many nontechnical people >> Web fora are not an equivalent, or a replacement. > > A lot of people seem to consider them a functional equivalent, > replacement, whatever, for many purposes. Probably because they've never noticed how friggin' annoying they are. ;) > I don't like it any more than you seem to. But that's one of the > directions the computer world has gone these days - and one of the > reasons I'm getting more and more depressed about being more and more > out of step with more and more of it. Eh, I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. Smart people will continue to do things in reasonable ways. The idiots can twist in the wind. My port 25 will always answer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From useddec at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 21:51:35 2013 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 21:51:35 -0500 Subject: Floppy drives Message-ID: More stuff in the way: 5 epson SD-680L sysgen sticker on front 1 teac FD-55EV-12-v 3 teac FD-55 GFR 1 panasonic 455 5 455-7aag 1 475-3A10 take one or all. shipping from IL, 61853. please contact me off list Thanks, Paul From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 19 22:12:24 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 20:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC BA350 etc and RZxx-xx drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1366427544.55214.YahooMailNeo@web141401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hey Paul, I would be interested in some of these, maybe all if the shipping is right. ________________________________ From: Paul Anderson To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; cctech at vax-11.org Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 10:40 PM Subject: DEC BA350 etc and RZxx-xx drives I have about 25 BA350 style enclosures, BA35x power supplies, and RZ24,25,26, 28,29,40, etc. Some are in canisters, some are bare drives. I'm trying to clear a path and it's all in my way. Take one or all. shipping from IL, 61853. Please contact me off list Thanks, Paul From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 19 22:19:10 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 23:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <5171FF9B.9090507@neurotica.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304200212.r3K2C2rS010542@rickmurphy.net> <5171FF9B.9090507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201304200319.XAA04018@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Adding crap to the Subject header is for [...] > ...or for people who [...] are accustomed to seeing it for EVERY > OTHER LIST AROUND, This may be true of your mail feed, but it is an artifact of the set of lists you are subscribed to. Some 73% of the lists I've had traffic from in the last week don't do it, including the high-volume ones - something like 95% percent of my list traffic by message count. (That's assuming all the lists I'm on generate a List-Id: header, which to a pretty good approximation is true.) > and just plain LIKE it. If this is admitted as a reason (and I see no reason it shouldn't be), we kinda have to counterbalance it by the people who just plain DISLIKE it. Such as, me and at least one other person who's spoken up. In any case, it's all moot except to the extent that Jay cares what we think, and as far as I can recall he hasn't weighed in this time around, so I see no reason to think it's likely to change. You wrote that procmail is difficult for you to use. So I'll make this offer: if you want, I'll configure my own system to (a) make the Subject: header change and (b) remail the result to you. It'd mean your cctalk mail stream will be behind my filtering, and may get delayed if/when my mailsystem is being slow or is off the air - if the list will let me, I can subscribe a separate address which has the filtering bits that are easy to turn off turned off, which will reduce that but not eliminate it. And it means that unsubs and option changes and the like might need to go through me, which would delay them if I'm incommunicado for any reason. But the resulting mail _will_ have the Subject: marker. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 22:18:55 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 03:18:55 -0000 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> <5171EB43.3070705@neurotica.com> <201304200216.WAA03782@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <51720218.5090101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <80CE819E-22E6-4295-A910-4A3E47A33554@gewt.net> On 19 Apr 2013, at 22:48, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > On 04/19/2013 10:16 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> After all, this /is/ classiccmp, where even with all the web-forums >>>> out there, we are still using email ;) >>> Wha..? Has email suddenly become passe' or something? >> >> Yes, for many people and purposes - or, rather, no, not "suddenly"; it >> has happened gradually over the last deacde or so. > > Wow. I'm increasingly glad that I don't associate with very many > nontechnical people Next you'll tell me Fax machines are dying! > >>> Web fora are not an equivalent, or a replacement. >> >> A lot of people seem to consider them a functional equivalent, >> replacement, whatever, for many purposes. > > Probably because they've never noticed how friggin' annoying they are. ;) Eh, They ARE pretty annoying. > >> I don't like it any more than you seem to. But that's one of the >> directions the computer world has gone these days - and one of the >> reasons I'm getting more and more depressed about being more and more >> out of step with more and more of it. > > Eh, I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. Smart people will continue to > do things in reasonable ways. The idiots can twist in the wind. My port 25 > will always answer. Mine will most likely too, so long as they don't hit my spamfilter. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 19 22:32:42 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 23:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51720218.5090101@neurotica.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> <5171EB43.3070705@neurotica.com> <201304200216.WAA03782@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <51720218.5090101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201304200332.XAA04102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Web fora are not an equivalent, or a replacement. >> A lot of people seem to consider them a functional equivalent, >> replacement, whatever, for many purposes. > Probably because they've never noticed how friggin' annoying they > are. ;) I feel moderately sure you don't actually mean this to be taken seriously, but there is a real point lurking here which I think it good to address. As hard as it may be for you or me to understand, they _aren't_ annoying to a lot of people these days. While it doesn't happen much (like you, I tend to hang out with crowds that share our opinion on this point), I _have_ seen people ask things indicating that they actually prefer a web forum to a mailing list - and no, I don't think they're all trolls expecting to hide behind the pseudonymity granted by having (potentially) a separate name on each forum. >> I don't like it any more than you seem to. But that's one of the >> directions the computer world has gone these days - and one of the >> reasons I'm getting more and more depressed about being more and >> more out of step with more and more of it. > Eh, I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. Smart people will > continue to do things in reasonable ways. The idiots can twist in > the wind. My port 25 will always answer. Your port 25, good as it may be, does not a world make. :( It's getting to the point where you can't even get a job, never mind a _computer_ job, without having to use the God-damned Web! (It's not quite there yet, but it's depressingly close - and I mean "depressingly" literally; when events have forced these matters into my awareness, I've been noticing symptoms typically associated with depression showing up.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 22:42:17 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 23:42:17 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <80CE819E-22E6-4295-A910-4A3E47A33554@gewt.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> <5171EB43.3070705@neurotica.com> <201304200216.WAA03782@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <51720218.5090101@neurotica.com> <80CE819E-22E6-4295-A910-4A3E47A33554@gewt.net> Message-ID: <51720E99.4030809@neurotica.com> On 04/19/2013 11:18 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > > On 19 Apr 2013, at 22:48, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > >> >> On 04/19/2013 10:16 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>>> After all, this /is/ classiccmp, where even with all the web-forums >>>>> out there, we are still using email ;) >>>> Wha..? Has email suddenly become passe' or something? >>> >>> Yes, for many people and purposes - or, rather, no, not "suddenly"; it >>> has happened gradually over the last deacde or so. >> >> Wow. I'm increasingly glad that I don't associate with very many >> nontechnical people > > Next you'll tell me Fax machines are dying! I think I may have missed the joke. (some suits still use 'em, but I haven't had one in at least a decade) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 19 22:43:06 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 23:43:06 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <201304200319.XAA04018@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304200212.r3K2C2rS010542@rickmurphy.net> <5171FF9B.9090507@neurotica.com> <201304200319.XAA04018@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <51720ECA.6090806@neurotica.com> On 04/19/2013 11:19 PM, Mouse wrote: >> and just plain LIKE it. > > If this is admitted as a reason (and I see no reason it shouldn't be), > we kinda have to counterbalance it by the people who just plain DISLIKE > it. Such as, me and at least one other person who's spoken up. Right. Why is why I'm explaining (over and over) why I want it (which again has nothing to do with filtering)...NOT because I'm fighting for it or I somehow think it's going to happen. I gave up on it ten years ago. > In any case, it's all moot except to the extent that Jay cares what we > think, and as far as I can recall he hasn't weighed in this time > around, so I see no reason to think it's likely to change. See above. > You wrote that procmail is difficult for you to use. It's more a matter that my configuration does not support it. My mail server is fully virtualized (not like "VMware" virtualized, but meaning "supports virtual addresses" under multiple domains), and does not back-end email addresses with UNIX system accounts. I sacrificed my much-loved .procmailrc many years ago to gain the advantages of this configuration. I've heard rumblings since then, however, that Procmail has been shoe-horned into such configurations. I don't know how clean it is (where does my .procmailrc live??) but I've since moved on to CMU Sieve, which I think is a much better alternative, and is fully integrated into the mail system, so no fork()/exec() crap, etc etc. (this is a busy mail server with lots of accounts) > So I'll make this > offer: if you want, I'll configure my own system to (a) make the > Subject: header change and (b) remail the result to you. It'd mean > your cctalk mail stream will be behind my filtering, and may get > delayed if/when my mailsystem is being slow or is off the air - if the > list will let me, I can subscribe a separate address which has the > filtering bits that are easy to turn off turned off, which will reduce > that but not eliminate it. And it means that unsubs and option changes > and the like might need to go through me, which would delay them if I'm > incommunicado for any reason. > > But the resulting mail _will_ have the Subject: marker. I appreciate the offer; thank you. I don't care that much about it though. As I stated above, I was merely railing on about it because dense people refused to accept the notion that someone might want subject tagging for a purpose other than mail sorting. (which I can do JUST FINE and have been for a very long time) I can probably make Sieve do it...but it's really not worth it to me to look into. It's just something that I see as oddly "missing", when every other even SLIGHTLY technical list I'm on uses them. The ones I run most certainly do. That's all. But once again, thank you for the offer, that is most kind of you. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 22:52:05 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 03:52:05 -0000 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> <5171EB43.3070705@neurotica.com> <201304200216.WAA03782@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <51720218.5090101@neurotica.com> <201304200332.XAA04102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5D5887F5-8A5C-4111-84BD-9F9450BD7FEA@gewt.net> On 19 Apr 2013, at 23:32, "Mouse" wrote: > >>>> Web fora are not an equivalent, or a replacement. >>> A lot of people seem to consider them a functional equivalent, >>> replacement, whatever, for many purposes. >> Probably because they've never noticed how friggin' annoying they >> are. ;) > > I feel moderately sure you don't actually mean this to be taken > seriously, but there is a real point lurking here which I think it good > to address. > > As hard as it may be for you or me to understand, they _aren't_ > annoying to a lot of people these days. While it doesn't happen much > (like you, I tend to hang out with crowds that share our opinion on > this point), I _have_ seen people ask things indicating that they > actually prefer a web forum to a mailing list - and no, I don't think > they're all trolls expecting to hide behind the pseudonymity granted by > having (potentially) a separate name on each forum. > >>> I don't like it any more than you seem to. But that's one of the >>> directions the computer world has gone these days - and one of the >>> reasons I'm getting more and more depressed about being more and >>> more out of step with more and more of it. >> Eh, I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. Smart people will >> continue to do things in reasonable ways. The idiots can twist in >> the wind. My port 25 will always answer. > > Your port 25, good as it may be, does not a world make. :( > > It's getting to the point where you can't even get a job, never mind a > _computer_ job, without having to use the God-damned Web! (It's not > quite there yet, but it's depressingly close - and I mean > "depressingly" literally; when events have forced these matters into my > awareness, I've been noticing symptoms typically associated with > depression showing up.) A VPS provider: "In order to verify your identity, please provide a link to your twitter, Facebook, linked in, blog/websiye and we will reactivate your account" > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 22:54:32 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 20:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: <5171B14B.90809@verizon.net> References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> <51715B99.9070502@verizon.net> <51717BE1.5060607@verizon.net> <20130419114844.O97347@shell.lmi.net> <5171B14B.90809@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20130419205039.Q2144@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, allison wrote: > ;) Fred you and I know using standard and floppies in the same sentence is > asking for pain. PC (help me here) standards were best at making it worse. "PC standards" is one of my favorite oxymorons! The first time that I encountered 720K floppies formatted 1.4M was a guy with a PS/2 model 50, who had absolutely no idea that there were any difference between drives other than size. He had contacted me to ask my to "fix" a computer that couldn't read disks from his 50. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 22:58:58 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 03:58:58 -0000 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> <5171EB43.3070705@neurotica.com> <201304200216.WAA03782@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <51720218.5090101@neurotica.com> <80CE819E-22E6-4295-A910-4A3E47A33554@gewt.net> <51720E99.4030809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46A2EFF7-4116-4A51-9E05-F58821844244@gewt.net> On 19 Apr 2013, at 23:42, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > On 04/19/2013 11:18 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> >> >> On 19 Apr 2013, at 22:48, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >> >>> >>> On 04/19/2013 10:16 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>>>> After all, this /is/ classiccmp, where even with all the web-forums >>>>>> out there, we are still using email ;) >>>>> Wha..? Has email suddenly become passe' or something? >>>> >>>> Yes, for many people and purposes - or, rather, no, not "suddenly"; it >>>> has happened gradually over the last deacde or so. >>> >>> Wow. I'm increasingly glad that I don't associate with very many >>> nontechnical people >> >> Next you'll tell me Fax machines are dying! > > I think I may have missed the joke. (some suits still use 'em, but I > haven't had one in at least a decade) That;s the joke. I still have one. ;) And several fax fake modems. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 19 23:05:17 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 21:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <63A15EEA-4BD3-43CE-9CDE-9572D1BA98CC@gmail.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> <51715D27.4090600@sbcglobal.net> <20130419103844.U97347@shell.lmi.net> <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> <5171E4AA.5060006@dunnington.plus.com> <63A15EEA-4BD3-43CE-9CDE-9572D1BA98CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130419210424.B2144@shell.lmi.net> > >>>>> Who's on first. > >>>> I don't know. > >>> THIRD BASE! > >> What? > > No. What is on second base. > > Who's on first. On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Kelly Fergason wrote: > I don't give a darn! He's the shortstop. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 19 23:16:46 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:16:46 -0600 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: Please stop cc'ing me on messages you're sending to the mailing list. I'm already subscribed to the mailing list, I don't need a copy showing up in my inbox. I already set "Reply-To" to explictly point to the list because that's where I prefer to read the list -- on the list and not in my inbox. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From b4 at gewt.net Fri Apr 19 23:16:41 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 04:16:41 -0000 Subject: floppies References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> <51715B99.9070502@verizon.net> <51717BE1.5060607@verizon.net> <20130419114844.O97347@shell.lmi.net> <5171B14B.90809@verizon.net> <20130419205039.Q2144@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <25FCADCC-1D1E-4629-95D4-3C7FBC4DD7CA@gewt.net> On 19 Apr 2013, at 23:54, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, allison wrote: >> ;) Fred you and I know using standard and floppies in the same sentence is >> asking for pain. PC (help me here) standards were best at making it worse. > > "PC standards" is one of my favorite oxymorons! > > > The first time that I encountered 720K floppies formatted 1.4M was a guy > with a PS/2 model 50, who had absolutely no idea that there were any > difference between drives other than size. He had contacted me to ask my > to "fix" a computer that couldn't read disks from his 50. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Speaking of floppies?I've been fighting bad drives/disks for the past hour or two... From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 19 23:19:53 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:19:53 -0600 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <201304200212.r3K2C2rS010542@rickmurphy.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304200212.r3K2C2rS010542@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: In article <201304200212.r3K2C2rS010542 at rickmurphy.net>, Rick Murphy writes: > Filter on List-Id. That's what it's for. Adding crap to the Subject > header is for people stuck running [Microsoft Exchange] and other offensive > incompatible mailers. ...and of course, it also has nothing to do with Exchange. Exchange doesn't strip the List-Id header and anyone can filter on List-Id when they get their email through Exchange. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 19 23:20:52 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:20:52 -0600 Subject: BNC connectors (was: Public mainframe system) In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> <51708958.6040101@neurotica.com> <5170F997.4030208@gmail.com> <8BF4A508-AF86-402A-8507-947903B51F4E@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > Most BNCs can be sorted into 50 and 75 Ohm by looking to see if there > is air around the female end. Which one has the air? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 19 23:22:17 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 00:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: <20130419205039.Q2144@shell.lmi.net> References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> <018501ce3c46$0fcaa880$2f5ff980$@com> <51704775.2080402@verizon.net> <51715B99.9070502@verizon.net> <51717BE1.5060607@verizon.net> <20130419114844.O97347@shell.lmi.net> <5171B14B.90809@verizon.net> <20130419205039.Q2144@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201304200422.AAA04571@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The first time that I encountered 720K floppies formatted 1.4M was a > guy with a PS/2 model 50, who had absolutely no idea that there were > any difference between drives other than size. Well, to be fair, I don't think I did either until I saw the differences discussed here. :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Apr 20 01:43:51 2013 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 01:43:51 -0500 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 21:20:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Tothwolf To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Richard wrote: > Tothwolf writes: > >>> [Since others won't know why Richard made this remark, > >> Apparently even you don't know why I made this remark. I make this >> remark now because you said the above, on the 19th of April. >> The rest of your message I'm not going to respond to because it has >> nothing to do with my my remark quoted above. > Well folks, I've tried to resolve this with Richard both on and off-list since September of last year, and given the response above I guess any further attempts would be a waste of time. You're right; despite Richard's attempts to explain you seem unable to grasp that this is not about you or any imagined or real exchanges last year, so it would presumably indeed be a waste of time. I happen to agree completely with what Richard said and was about to say so myself when I read his post, and I don't recall any discussion with you last September or any other time for that matter... m From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Apr 20 01:52:40 2013 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 01:52:40 -0500 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI References: Message-ID: <595FCAC584534D8D9D5AF429D515E81E@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:12:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Mouse >> If someone owns something, then it is theirs to dispose of in any way >> they wish. That is what private property is all about. > Legally, yes. But there is a large difference between "legal" and "good", > or even "legal" and "not scummy". Just because someone has a legal right > to do something doesn't mean that doing it it shouldn't draw censure. ... > I will think less of such a person and quite likely refuse to sell to, > help on the lists, buy from, etc, said person... I happen to think that I not only have a legal right to choose what to do with what most people would consider worthless junk, but that it's really none of your business. But your censure doesn't bother me one bit, and your turning a *Goodwill donation* of fairly common junk into 'dissecting an ASR33 into party favors' just tells me something about trying to discuss something with you... I used to think that when I get rid of something people would appreciate a heads-up before I scrap it, but knowing that you and perhaps others will on principle "refuse to ...buy from" me (thereby *increasing* the likelihood that it'll end up as scrap) and not wanting to get your (and others') underwear in a knot, I just don't bother any more to offer things that have a poor chance of selling before I scrap them (as I have done with dozens of large/heavy systems including several Cromemcos, VG, etc.). >> If you think that such things are precious and need to be protected, > If you don't, what are you on this list for? Considering the OT and childish/judgemental/argumentative/insulting crap that I have to wade through these days I've been asking myself that very question more and more lately... I dunno, I thought perhaps someone might be able to use a part from those systems I've scrapped, or maybe some of the obscure software filling my shelves, or even some useful knowledge from my 40+ years in the field, but no, I don't think that any of the systems in question are particularly precious or rare nor do they need to be "protected"; there are lots of IBM 5150s out there including three rusting in my basement. Some people just want to own them and get upset because they can't for whatever reason... >> then do something about it. Buy them yourself. [...] Anything. >> Just don't go bitching to the mailing list and then expect someone else >> to do it for you. I agree completely; instead of bitching, appreciate that it's being offered at all instead of going straight to Goodwill/scrap/the dump! If you want it then buy it; if you don't and no one else wants it either then it's obviously not worth very much... m From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 01:55:48 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 07:55:48 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <5171C57F.7050802@jwsss.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> <517035C1.3060200@gmail.com> <5170F7EA.5070709@gmail.com> <5171AB37.3010000@gmail.com> <5171C57F.7050802@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <51723BF4.500@gmail.com> On 19/04/2013 23:30, Jim Stephens wrote: > > On 4/19/2013 1:38 PM, Dave wrote: >> On 19/04/2013 15:16, geneb wrote: >>> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave wrote: >>> >>>>> The hard part (at least from my standpoint) is getting your hands >>>>> on the IBM mainframe to begin with. >>>> >>>> MP3000 come up from time to time on E-Bay and are reasonably cheap. >>>> Finding an OS to run on one is harder. You can connect a real 3270 >>>> to Hercules. >>>>> > Probably Linux is all one can run unless you have a lot of money to > run Zos. I don't know how long you could legally run the demo Zvm > download or if it runs on the MP3000, I'm guessing the chances are > high not. >>> Yeah. I'm discovering that finding operating systems for IBM >>> hardware is problematic. Does Hercules have the OS that was running >>> on the 4331-K2 circa 1986? >> > I don't know why the 4331 was picked, but made me think. The system > that was probably better was the 4361 if one could lay hands on one. > It had a storage director built in, and could run 3370's. If one had > a 3420 + 2 or 3 3370's and the 4361, it was all about the same height > and form factor and made for a deep freeze and a half to run a very > nice VM system on. VM SP5 ran fine on that system. > The issue with the direct attach drives is that they are all "fixed block arcitecture" (FBA) drives so won't run the freely available (pre VM/SP) VM/370 as that didn't support FBA disks. So almost all the low end boxes that is 4331, 4361 and 9370 generally came with FBA disks as these didn't need an expensive controller. You can use the more expensive CKD drives but they were very expensive. > It also had 4 3270 builtin ports (or 6, don't recall) plus a port that > had the console crap on the bottom of the screen. The top was a 3215 > (maybe??) which had 20 lines rather than 24. You had a special > keyboard with the buttons on one side to bring the power up, and IPL. > Well thats an interesting point. It was generated to VM as a 3270 model 2A but all VM consoles look like 3215's to the application programs. They use a special instruction DIAG58 to send full screen data to the screen. Most apps will work in full screen mode on a 2A. > Also the 3420 tape drive had the controller built in, so you didn't > need a 3803 type box to run the drive. Basically a reel to reel with > the reels horizontal. The one we had did 6250 as well, so two tapes > would back up the system pretty much. >> That box could just about run all the IBM 370 operating systems that >> were current at that time. I would have thought around 1986 it would >> most likely be running DOS/VSE as for example as per:- >> >> http://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/ShowDoc.wss?docURL=/common/ssi/rep_ca/1/897/ENUS286-331/index.html&lang=en&request_locale=en >> >> >> The 4331 was aimed at smaller sites most of who ran DOS. It could >> also have been running VM/SP R4 or possibly MVS/SP. MVS/SP is >> unlikely as its really overkill for the 4331 and it requires CKD DASD >> which can be formatted with a range of sector sizes. The 4331 was >> usually ordered with FBA DASD such as these :- >> >> http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3310.html >> >> and MVS won't run on these DASD. I think the only freely available OS >> that runs on FBA DASD will be from the DOS family. VM/370 and MVS >> 3.8J both require CKD disks. >> >>> >>>>> I recently saw pictures on the VCF of a 3270 keyboard a guy had >>>>> (or was in the process of) hacking to work on a PC. >>>> >>>> I have a couple of Nokia 122 key keyboards that plug straight into >>>> a PC. Like the one at the bottom of here:- >>>> >>>> http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm >>> >>> Now THAT is a labor of love. Awesome site. Bookmarked! >>> >>> g. >>> >> >> > That keyboard site is very handy, thanks to the author. > > Jim > Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Apr 20 02:46:50 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 03:46:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: <595FCAC584534D8D9D5AF429D515E81E@vl420mt> References: <595FCAC584534D8D9D5AF429D515E81E@vl420mt> Message-ID: <201304200746.DAA05251@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> ["MikeS" ] > I happen to think that I not only have a legal right to choose what > to do with what most people would consider worthless junk, but that > it's really none of your business. Indeed. Until and unless you make it our business, such as by posting on the list about it. Unless you are also Steven Landon (and maybe even then - see below), or unless you've pulled such a stunt in the past and I've lost track of it, I don't see why _you_ are getting bent out of shape over this. > But your censure doesn't bother me one bit, Nor should it, because it's not aimed at you...unless you are also Steven Landon, of course. Possibly even then; see below. Hm, actually, given the stance you take in your email, I think maybe it _is_ aimed at you. Not that you care, as you said. > and your turning a *Goodwill donation* of fairly common junk into > 'dissecting an ASR33 into party favors' just tells me something about > trying to discuss something with you... If Goodwill's policy as described upthread is accurate, I don't see it as that much of a stretch. Of course, it may not be accurate, or even if it is the poster may not have known about it (I'm speaking theoretically here). But the response from someone who actually cares about the hobby instead of about yanking others' emotional chains would have been more along the lines of "oh $#!+, is that what they do? Then...", or perhaps "actually, I asked them and the real policy here is...". That's not what I'm seeing here. Actually, what I saw from Steven Landon looked reasonable. The remark about Goodwill came from a message I did not see directly, and the quote was taken out of context enough I don't know how fair the reaction was. I _have_ seen such `offers' in the past, though, and they are what I was writing about, whether or not my remarks apply to anything recent. > I used to think that when I get rid of something people would > appreciate a heads-up before I scrap it, In general, I think we do. But "if you want to rescue it I'm going to make sure it costs you, even though I get nothing for it if you don't", well, if/when that happens, I have trouble finding a term for it any weaker than `emotional blackmail'. Again, whether that's relevant depends on whether that was the paradigm, which as I said above is uncertain from my point of view. > I dunno, I thought perhaps someone might be able to use a part from > those systems I've scrapped, If that were the actual motivation behind the offer, we'd be seeing "free for pickup from $PLACE", not "$X and you pick it up, or it gets trashed". Which is what I often see, and it was pretty close to what I saw from Steven Landon. If you think my remarks are relevant to you, I can only infer that you've made `offers' along those lines.... > If you want it then buy it; if you don't and no one else wants it > either then it's obviously not worth very much... Lots of things lose value when they're out in the middle of Michigan; it's an inconvenient enough place for me, for example, that I wouldn't go there to pick a $100 banknote up off the ground. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jws at jwsss.com Sat Apr 20 05:07:47 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 03:07:47 -0700 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: <201304200746.DAA05251@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <595FCAC584534D8D9D5AF429D515E81E@vl420mt> <201304200746.DAA05251@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <517268F3.1040508@jwsss.com> On 4/20/2013 12:46 AM, Mouse wrote: > If Goodwill's policy as described upthread is accurate, I don't see it > as that much of a stretch. Further to what Goodwill does, is to put all material into either recycle if it must be and it will go to a metals recycling operation or an ecycler if there is one available and taking material. They also sell material they don't pick for stores in 4' x 4' x 4' baskets by auction. YOu might luck out and be there when they auction off such a load of material which included computers. It is very it and miss. the main sorting site in Santa Ana, ca and quite some time dealing with the computer operations and the auction and disposal operation coprises what I'm citing here. BUt they don't have any way in place at the central sites to choose over anything except by luck or exception. And in oC anyway all collections are supposed to go to the central site before being pulled for sale. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 20 05:18:28 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:18:28 +0200 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <5171C57F.7050802@jwsss.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> <517035C1.3060200@gmail.com> <5170F7EA.5070709@gmail.com> <5171AB37.3010000@gmail.com> <5171C57F.7050802@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <51726B74.7070705@xs4all.nl> On 20-apr-2013 0:30, Jim Stephens wrote: > I don't know how long you could legally run the demo Zvm download Out of curiosity, where can one obtain that? - MG From amh at POBOX.COM Fri Apr 19 08:35:53 2013 From: amh at POBOX.COM (Andrew Hoerter) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 09:35:53 -0400 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: References: <5170CF0C.4010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 4:08 AM, Tothwolf wrote: "Buy my stuff or the [insert name] gets it!" > > Of course we know Goodwill junks (scraps, dumpsters) the computers they > get that can't run Windows 7 or newer. That's their stated policy now > because they supposedly don't want people returning a computer and bitching > that it can't run the latest version of Windows. > > Maybe I'm the only one who gets annoyed with this sort of remark though... > I sympathize, although there have been times that I found out later something was thrown away that I would have rescued, if I had known scrapping was the alternative. But there's also a distinction between giving away and selling, in that situation. -Andy From doc at vaxen.net Fri Apr 19 13:24:01 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 13:24:01 -0500 Subject: Waste Management (the company) and vintage computers... In-Reply-To: <20130419095115.E97347@shell.lmi.net> References: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> <20130419095115.E97347@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51718BC1.8050404@vaxen.net> On 4/19/13 12:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > "Waste management!" ("waste" as a verb, not adjective) is as strong an > imperative as "Defenestrate college administrators!" http://blog.ontrac.com/Portals/53780/images/waste-management-logo.jpg Doc From doug at doughq.com Sat Apr 20 00:12:00 2013 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 15:12:00 +1000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> Message-ID: Oh no! We *can't* increase the subject line length - then it won't format correctly on my TRS-80 model 100 On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 1:55 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 18, 2013, at 7:31 PM, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: > > > Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the > list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) > > > > Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? > > ...that turns out to be a contentious subject around here. > > > - Dave > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From doug at dougswordclock.com Sat Apr 20 00:55:21 2013 From: doug at dougswordclock.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 15:55:21 +1000 Subject: RX11/12 available in Canberra Message-ID: Hi cctalk list! I was wondering if there is anybody in either Canberra or Sydney Australia who has some old DEC hardware that is in need of a new home. I have a PDP11/34 system that would love a RX11 or RX12, so I was looking for a set of drives and a M7846 board for them to plug into. I have a Dick Smith System 80 that I would happily swap :-) -- Doug Jackson DougsWordClocks 35 Fred Lane Crescent, Gordon, ACT, 2906 Australia http://www.dougswordclock.com/ From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Apr 19 12:52:51 2013 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:52:51 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 116, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2013-04-19, at 10:00 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 15:00:34 -0700 (PDT) > From: Thomas Dzubin > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-11 software designer job. yes, in 2013! > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > I had to check my calendar to make sure I didn't go back in time > > Here's a job advertisement for a "Senior PDP-11 Software Designer" > > http://jobs.itworldcanada.com/Jobs/Ggnt_nt-yM0A2pqNiGCgnQ==/Senior-PDP-11-Software-Designer-Permanent-Peterborough-ON > > This would be my dream job if I was single and unattached... I'd move > to Peterborough in a heartbeat. > > ...sigh... > ---------------------- > Thomas PDP-11 Dzubin > Calgary, Saskatoon, or Vancouver CANADA > Well, give it some consideration anyway. Talk to your spouse/partner. I live in Vancouver BC, but took a job in Halifax, Nova Scotia because it was a real opportunity and a "dream job" for me. These opportunities don't come up often. I was able to work out a generally-achievable "two weeks on; two weeks off" schedule, and commute to Vancouver to see my wife. The distance is tough, but there's Vonage/Skype for free calls, and I get home every 2 - 3 weeks, or at worst once a month for a week. Kevin From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 05:56:46 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 11:56:46 +0100 Subject: Public mainframe system In-Reply-To: <51726B74.7070705@xs4all.nl> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <516F5F35.7070808@neurotica.com> <49670EFA-3878-4866-B13B-D404B8F968B6@gewt.net> <01d301ce3c4a$8a3293e0$9e97bba0$@com> <517035C1.3060200@gmail.com> <5170F7EA.5070709@gmail.com> <5171AB37.3010000@gmail.com> <5171C57F.7050802@jwsss.com> <51726B74.7070705@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Oddly obvious..... http://www.vm.ibm.com/eval On Apr 20, 2013 11:22 AM, "MG" wrote: > On 20-apr-2013 0:30, Jim Stephens wrote: > >> I don't know how long you could legally run the demo Zvm download >> > > Out of curiosity, where can one obtain that? > > - MG > From ats at offog.org Sat Apr 20 07:41:01 2013 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 13:41:01 +0100 Subject: BNC connectors In-Reply-To: (Richard's message of "Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:20:52 -0600") References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> <51708958.6040101@neurotica.com> <5170F997.4030208@gmail.com> <8BF4A508-AF86-402A-8507-947903B51F4E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Richard writes: >> Most BNCs can be sorted into 50 and 75 Ohm by looking to see if there >> is air around the female end. > Which one has the air? 75 ohm BNCs, because they have a thinner dielectric around the centre pin of the female. Here's a selection of male and female BNCs from my junk box for comparison: http://offog.org/stuff/bncs.jpg -- Adam Sampson From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 08:36:10 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 09:36:10 -0400 Subject: MIT Flea Message-ID: For the people on this list that attend the MIT Flea: This Sunday's show has been cancelled. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 08:45:06 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 09:45:06 -0400 Subject: BNC connectors In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> <51708958.6040101@neurotica.com> <5170F997.4030208@gmail.com> <8BF4A508-AF86-402A-8507-947903B51F4E@gmail.com> Message-ID: > 75 ohm BNCs, because they have a thinner dielectric around the centre > pin of the female. Here's a selection of male and female BNCs from my > junk box for comparison: > http://offog.org/stuff/bncs.jpg Very nice - illustrates the point well. However, lots of cheap BNCs from noname companies do not always follow this rule. For most of our purposes, using a 50 or 75 Ohm connector really does not matter. Look at all the rules that were broken when 10base2 was popular, especially when people added very short little BNC jumpers, when the Tee was just a little too tight against the back of the machine. Somehow the stuff still worked fine. -- Will From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Sat Apr 20 09:05:21 2013 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 10:05:21 -0400 Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? In-Reply-To: <201304191523.r3JFN8W0014677@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <516FFE9F.9010003@telegraphics.com.au> <201304181552.r3IFqfZU075828@mx1.ezwind.net> <51701F35.7090109@neurotica.com> <3f394d$2ktu5q@fipsb02.cogeco.net> <201304191523.r3JFN8W0014677@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <64e3aa$bejd6t@fipsb01.cogeco.net> At 11:14 AM 19/04/2013, you wrote: >The place I mentioned scans at HD 1920 x 1080 pixels - quite a bit better >than NTSC resolution. The $100K scanner guy wants to go to 2K, arguably >2048 x 1556, unknown pixel depth. With deeper bits-per-pixel, you get >more leeway to massage poor exposures. > >Maybe you're more careful than the guy I used in the early 90s, >maybe your projector has better lenses, (did I know you back in >the Amiga days or when I was writing for video magazines?) >but take a look at the difference between 1990s projector-to-VHS >and today's digital HD scan. Watch at full-screen. > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f08K0Co3l5s > > >One of my films was flipped horizontally and plays backwards. It was >an easy fix in digital. Look at the sprocket jitter in the example >above. How do you fix that with a projector? > >I think there's plenty of interesting films that would be worth preserving. >I am tempted to help my local historical society with such a project. >I'm sure there are home movies that would be worth keeping as a >historical record, and that would be of interest to others. > >- John You are right and I am impressed, but the example shows a bit of optical sound track so was probably professionally shot in the first place. Most of my clients through the years have been people who would spend hundreds of dollars on film and never think of buying a light meter. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 20 09:09:32 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 10:09:32 -0400 Subject: BNC connectors In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> <51708958.6040101@neurotica.com> <5170F997.4030208@gmail.com> <8BF4A508-AF86-402A-8507-947903B51F4E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5172A19C.8080904@neurotica.com> On 04/20/2013 08:41 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > Richard writes: > >>> Most BNCs can be sorted into 50 and 75 Ohm by looking to see if there >>> is air around the female end. >> Which one has the air? > > 75 ohm BNCs, because they have a thinner dielectric around the centre > pin of the female. Here's a selection of male and female BNCs from my > junk box for comparison: > http://offog.org/stuff/bncs.jpg Ah, I had just taken a very similar photo. Good illustration. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 20 09:29:52 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 10:29:52 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <46A2EFF7-4116-4A51-9E05-F58821844244@gewt.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> <5171EB43.3070705@neurotica.com> <201304200216.WAA03782@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <51720218.5090101@neurotica.com> <80CE819E-22E6-4295-A910-4A3E47A33554@gewt.net> <51720E99.4030809@neurotica.com> <46A2EFF7-4116-4A51-9E05-F58821844244@gewt.net> Message-ID: <5172A660.5070405@neurotica.com> On 04/19/2013 11:58 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> Next you'll tell me Fax machines are dying! >> >> I think I may have missed the joke. (some suits still use 'em, but I >> haven't had one in at least a decade) > > That;s the joke. I still have one. ;) You are WAY too young to have a fax machine. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 20 10:06:37 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 08:06:37 -0700 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: <51718999.1010108@xs4all.nl> References: , <51718999.1010108@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Sorry Fred I've not figured out how to do that.Once I did that a 10 hole 5-1/4. I cut the envelopeoff around the diameter of the holes on one side andput pieces of foil tape over most of the holes.No way to easily automate that though.Dwight > Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 20:14:49 +0200 > From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: floppies > > On 2013-04-19 19:00, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > For the 16 hole punches, I'm asking $35 plus postage.Dwight > > I might be interested in an unpunch. > > Fred Jan > From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Apr 20 10:00:06 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 10:00:06 -0500 Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? In-Reply-To: <64e3aa$bejd6t@fipsb01.cogeco.net> References: <516FFE9F.9010003@telegraphics.com.au> <201304181552.r3IFqfZU075828@mx1.ezwind.net> <51701F35.7090109@neurotica.com> <3f394d$2ktu5q@fipsb02.cogeco.net> <201304191523.r3JFN8W0014677@mx1.ezwind.net> <64e3aa$bejd6t@fipsb01.cogeco.net> Message-ID: <201304201506.r3KF6dx8051808@mx1.ezwind.net> At 09:05 AM 4/20/2013, Charles E. Fox wrote: >You are right and I am impressed, but the example shows a bit of optical sound track so was probably professionally shot in the first place. The noise on the right edge? You've got to be kidding. I assumed that was simply scratched film. This is 1944 8 mm, not circa 1970s Super 8. Family camera, not pro. As I said, they scan the film frame edge-to-edge, not just the middle that you'll see with a telecine or projector. (I do come from a long line of tinkerers, but I realize it was unusual for people to be shooting home movies in the 1930s and color in the 1940s.) I've seen audio on film edge, but it's normally center-amplitude and not edge-amplitude, correct? They put it in the center of the margin to avoid noise fromedge scratches. And there were several higher-end variations since then in analog and digital. It would be wonderful if there was sound here, but I don't think there is. If so, you've pointed out an excellent point about this digital scanning of a film. I wonder if any of the services have a digital way to grab analog sound from scanned frames, or if analog capture is the only way. As always, I'd guess someone's done it. It's astounding what can be recovered digitally. Here's how a lost 1899 record was recovered from a photo in a book: http://gizmodo.com/5922410/this-is-the-oldest-vinyl-album-in-the-history-of-the-world http://vimeo.com/iuvas/review/43913573/0e6cac2eb9 Having associated with computer graphics and 3D animation folks for years, I know many of them used single-frame film cameras to record their screens until other methods were developed. I look forward to what will be rescued by digital scans. - John From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 20 10:04:32 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 17:04:32 +0200 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> <5164D921.7000001@gmail.com> <516573A2.6000506@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130420150432.GB19595@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 03:54:42PM +0100, John Many Jars wrote: > On 10 April 2013 15:13, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > >> There is of course always this too http://public.enemy.org/zt_pdp11.jpg > > > > > > Yikes! My eyes are burning! Bleeding! > > How can I be saved if I see that? http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_OBAjn-K9Ves/TUl4oJZAt_I/AAAAAAAABFA/HsV2o0KBKbg/s1600/humor.jpg SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 20 10:00:48 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 17:00:48 +0200 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130420150047.GA19595@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 05:33:35PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- > > What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? Well ... NSFW and I recommend you keep the brain bleach ready. You have been warned. http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html HTH, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 20 10:29:30 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 09:29:30 -0600 Subject: BNC connectors In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> <51708958.6040101@neurotica.com> <5170F997.4030208@gmail.com> <8BF4A508-AF86-402A-8507-947903B51F4E@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article , Adam Sampson writes: > Richard writes: > > >> Most BNCs can be sorted into 50 and 75 Ohm by looking to see if there > >> is air around the female end. > > Which one has the air? > > 75 ohm BNCs, because they have a thinner dielectric around the centre > pin of the female. Here's a selection of male and female BNCs from my > junk box for comparison: > http://offog.org/stuff/bncs.jpg I confess I find it hard to differentiate between the examples on the far ends. The ones in the middle are easier to differentiate. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Apr 20 10:36:59 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 11:36:59 -0400 Subject: Available S-100 PCBs Message-ID: <002f01ce3ddc$f2984d10$d7c8e730$@YAHOO.COM> Hi If you sent a PayPal for one of the S-100 PCBs and have *NOT* received an email confirming I've shipped your boards or the boards themselves PLEASE CONTACT ME IMMEDIATELY! There has been an instance of a PayPal email either not arriving or getting lost. I don't know if this is a "one time" deal or part of a larger problem. Maybe its related to the general confusion and nuttiness happening in the US over the last few days. Whatever the problem is I need to know right away. If you've paid for a PCB, it will be shipped or you'll get a refund. No exceptions! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 8:31 PM > To: n8vem-s100 at googlegroups.com > Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Available S-100 PCBs > > Hi, an update on available S-100 board PCBs > > Good news!? There are several new and reordered S-100 PCBs available! > > The S-100 68K CPU boards finally came in so there are about 5 available. > > There are 25 of the S-100 IDE V2 reorder PCBs and 6 of the new S-100 bus > terminator/prototyping board PCBs. > > There are 4 of the S-100 LAVA PCBs available. > > http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/68000%20Board/68K%2 > 0CPU%20Board.htm > > http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/IDE%20Board/My%20I > DE%20Card.htm > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S- > 100%20bus%20terminator > > http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava- > 10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board.htm > > The S-100 PCBs cost the same as before ($20 each).? However due to > unforeseen extreme price increases in shipping by USPS I am forced to > change shipping costs. > > Shipping in the US will be $3 for a single PCB and $2 for each additional > PCB.? Shipping internationally will be $10 for a single PCB and $3 for each > additional PCB.? This is for the bare basics USPS first class postage with no > tracking or insurance.? The builder assumes all risk of delivery as per usual > arrangement. > > I apologize for the large price increase on shipping but this is out of my > hands.? The USPS is in dire financial trouble and is raising prices on shipping.? It > affects us all and is most unfortunate.? These boards are provided "at cost" so > there is no margin to absorb any shipping price increases.? I have to pass > them along. > > If you would like one or more S-100 PCBs please send a PayPal to > LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > PS, if you would like to help out this all-volunteer project please get one or > more of the S-100 LAVA PCBs. These PCBs are the oldest ones and them > sitting around on a shelf does no one any good. I?d like these to go to a > hobbyist who would get some enjoyment from these fun to build and use > boards. Thanks in advance. I truly appreciate everyone's support in moving > these remaining boards. You make this hobbyist home brew project > possible. From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Apr 20 12:15:03 2013 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:15:03 -0500 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 03:46:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Mouse ["MikeS" ] >> I happen to think that I not only have a legal right to choose what to do >> with what most people would consider worthless junk, but that it's really >> none of your business. > Indeed. Until and unless you make it our business, such as by posting on > the list about it. Like I said, I've learned my lesson; since offering something for sale here before it is scrapped is not appreciated and instead earns the censure of folks like you who on principle won't buy it from me anyway, I'll avoid offending you and simply offer it elsewhere and/or scrap it *without* offering it first. > Unless you are also Steven Landon (and maybe even then - see below), or > unless you've pulled such a stunt in the past and I've lost track of it, I > don't see why _you_ are getting bent out of shape over this. I have no love or respect for Landon whatsoever but I can see myself saying exactly the same thing, i.e. "I've got to get rid of some stuff and if I can't sell it by YY/MM/DD then I'm going to give it to Goodwill" (where you could presumably pick it up anyway if you're in a position to pick up in the first place); thus, the critical replies and comments could just as well be directed at me, which is why I stuck my nose in. If I give it to Goodwill or scrap it I never have to think about it again; no waiting for folks to show up who never do, no endless email exchanges, no listening to their complaints, no seeing it on eBay for $100 the next day, etc. etc. and I think I'm entitled to choose whether to put up with those hassles without any compensation. If you think that making my choice clear is emotional blackmail, then so be it. > ...the response from someone who actually cares about the hobby instead of > about yanking others' emotional chains would have been more along the > lines of "oh $#!+, is that what they do? Then...", or perhaps "actually, > I asked them and the real policy here is...". I guess I accepted a long time ago that millions of tons of useful and valuable stuff gets buried, crushed or melted down every day and I don't get as emotional about it as you think I should; if I think it should be saved and am in a position to do so, I will; what other people choose to do is up to them. Sorry if I'm not caring enough about the fate of old computers, or sensitive and considerate enough of your feelings... As I just replied to someone off-list, I find it sad and a little depressing to see the animosity, *judgements* and personal attacks so prevalent on this list, which is after all intended to bring fellow members of a community together to share knowledge, experience etc. and in general help each other... From lproven at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 11:26:07 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 17:26:07 +0100 Subject: Was someone on here expressing interest in a Mac LC475? Message-ID: I was emailing with someone recently -- as in the last few weeks -- who was interested in one for the cost of postage from the UK. However, foolishly, I have lost the email thread. (I have 22,512 threads in my inbox.) If you're interested, do please drop me an email. I've dug the machine out to check it boots, and I have found a suitable (well, slightly overlarge) box. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 11:58:05 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 17:58:05 +0100 Subject: Was someone on here expressing interest in a Mac LC475? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20 April 2013 17:26, Liam Proven wrote: > I was emailing with someone recently -- as in the last few weeks -- > who was interested in one for the cost of postage from the UK. > However, foolishly, I have lost the email thread. (I have 22,512 > threads in my inbox.) > > If you're interested, do please drop me an email. I've dug the machine > out to check it boots, and I have found a suitable (well, slightly > overlarge) box. I should have said... also available, free for the shipping: LC2, Beige G3 desktop, UMAX PowerPC 604 Mac clone. I'm in London, England. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 20 12:04:13 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 10:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Waste Management and vintage computers... In-Reply-To: <51718BC1.8050404@vaxen.net> References: <51715B8C.3050903@gmail.com> <20130419095115.E97347@shell.lmi.net> <51718BC1.8050404@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <20130420100128.D16237@shell.lmi.net> > > "Waste management!" ("waste" as a verb, not adjective) is as strong an > > imperative as "Defenestrate college administrators!" On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Doc Shipley wrote: > http://blog.ontrac.com/Portals/53780/images/waste-management-logo.jpg Yes, that is indeed their logo. I'm saying that it should be "Waste management!" on a protest placard on a stick. With a sign saying "Management Offices" next to a smoking crater. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Apr 20 12:11:02 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 10:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <51715C43.5040700@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Richard wrote: > > In article , > geneb writes: > >> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Richard wrote: >> >>> I'm the moderator of this list and you're all fired! >>> >> \o/ >> >> You know what this means, don't you?! >> >> >> THE DRINKS ARE ON RICHARD! > > If you visit my museum in Salt Lake City, I will happily buy you one > drink. > The trip would be worth it for a 12oz drinking glass filled to the brim with Johnny Walker Blue. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 20 12:16:32 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 10:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: References: , <51718999.1010108@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130420100453.B16237@shell.lmi.net> > > > For the 16 hole punches, I'm asking $35 plus postage.Dwight > > I might be interested in an unpunch. On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, dwight elvey wrote: > Sorry Fred I've not figured out how to do that.Once I did that a 10 hole > 5-1/4. I cut the envelopeoff around the diameter of the holes on one > side andput pieces of foil tape over most of the holes.No way to easily > automate that though.Dwight If you just turn the whole thing over, that unpunches ALL of the holes, including the write-enable notch. :-) From b4 at gewt.net Sat Apr 20 12:17:06 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 17:17:06 -0000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, Doug Jackson wrote: > > Oh no! > > We *can't* increase the subject line length - then it won't format > correctly on my TRS-80 model 100 > That's a good reason. ;) How many columns can the model 100 display? > > > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 1:55 PM, David Riley wrote: > >> On Apr 18, 2013, at 7:31 PM, "Cory Smelosky" wrote: >> >>> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the >> list appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) >>> >>> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? >> >> ...that turns out to be a contentious subject around here. >> >> >> - Dave >> > > > > -- > Doug Jackson > VK1ZDJ > http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks > http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 12:18:48 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:18:48 -0500 Subject: Was someone on here expressing interest in a Mac LC475? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: search G4 it will be a re planned obsoletence thread i think or tied into that chain i think On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 20 April 2013 17:26, Liam Proven wrote: > > I was emailing with someone recently -- as in the last few weeks -- > > who was interested in one for the cost of postage from the UK. > > However, foolishly, I have lost the email thread. (I have 22,512 > > threads in my inbox.) > > > > If you're interested, do please drop me an email. I've dug the machine > > out to check it boots, and I have found a suitable (well, slightly > > overlarge) box. > > I should have said... also available, free for the shipping: LC2, > Beige G3 desktop, UMAX PowerPC 604 Mac clone. > > I'm in London, England. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From b4 at gewt.net Sat Apr 20 12:19:33 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 17:19:33 -0000 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <5171A529.4030309@gmail.com> <5171EB43.3070705@neurotica.com> <201304200216.WAA03782@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <51720218.5090101@neurotica.com> <80CE819E-22E6-4295-A910-4A3E47A33554@gewt.net> <51720E99.4030809@neurotica.com> <46A2EFF7-4116-4A51-9E05-F58821844244@gewt.net> <5172A660.5070405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/19/2013 11:58 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>> Next you'll tell me Fax machines are dying! >>> >>> I think I may have missed the joke. (some suits still use 'em, but I >>> haven't had one in at least a decade) >> >> That;s the joke. I still have one. ;) > > You are WAY too young to have a fax machine. ;) > That's ALSO the joke. ;) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 20 12:24:52 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 10:24:52 -0700 Subject: BNC connectors In-Reply-To: References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> <51708958.6040101@neurotica.com> <5170F997.4030208@gmail.com> <8BF4A508-AF86-402A-8507-947903B51F4E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5172CF64.2060500@sydex.com> On 04/20/2013 06:45 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > However, lots of cheap BNCs from noname companies do not always follow > this rule. > > For most of our purposes, using a 50 or 75 Ohm connector really does > not matter. Look at all the rules that were broken when 10base2 was > popular, especially when people added very short little BNC jumpers, > when the Tee was just a little too tight against the back of the > machine. Somehow the stuff still worked fine. That's true. Back in my days of 10Base2, I found a great deal on 75 ohm BNC connectors (the quick-connect, with a threaded hole to secure the coax cable and braid. RG-58 is a bit too small in its OD for the 75 ohm BNC connectors. I took some thinwall brass tubing that I had on hand to make up the difference in cable size, soldered the braid to it and threaded the result into the connector. It worked just fine with no apparent shortcomings. I think I still have a length of the cable with said connectors somewhere... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 20 13:25:34 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 14:25:34 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: BNC connectors In-Reply-To: <5172CF64.2060500@sydex.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> <51708958.6040101@neurotica.com> <5170F997.4030208@gmail.com> <8BF4A508-AF86-402A-8507-947903B51F4E@gmail.com> <5172CF64.2060500@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5172DD9E.7070203@neurotica.com> On 04/20/2013 01:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> However, lots of cheap BNCs from noname companies do not always follow >> this rule. >> >> For most of our purposes, using a 50 or 75 Ohm connector really does >> not matter. Look at all the rules that were broken when 10base2 was >> popular, especially when people added very short little BNC jumpers, >> when the Tee was just a little too tight against the back of the >> machine. Somehow the stuff still worked fine. > > That's true. Back in my days of 10Base2, I found a great deal on 75 ohm BNC > connectors (the quick-connect, with a threaded hole to secure the coax cable > and braid. RG-58 is a bit too small in its OD for the 75 ohm BNC > connectors. I took some thinwall brass tubing that I had on hand to make up > the difference in cable size, soldered the braid to it and threaded the > result into the connector. > > It worked just fine with no apparent shortcomings. I think I still have a > length of the cable with said connectors somewhere... A little impedance bump like that will have a minimal effect at those low-ish frequencies. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 20 14:13:47 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> Message-ID: <20130420120314.B17651@shell.lmi.net> > On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, Doug Jackson wrot e: > > Oh no! > > We *can't* increase the subject line > > length - then it won't format > > correctly on my TRS-80 model 100 > On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote : > That's a good reason. ;) > How many columns can the model 100 dis > play? > > Not anywhere close to enough for modern communication. Besides, it won't proper ly display dancing kangaroos and yodelli ng jellyfish. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Apr 20 14:26:39 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BNC connectors In-Reply-To: <5172CF64.2060500@sydex.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> <51708958.6040101@neurotica.com> <5170F997.4030208@gmail.com> <8BF4A508-AF86-402A-8507-947903B51F4E@gmail.com> <5172CF64.2060500@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/20/2013 06:45 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > > >> However, lots of cheap BNCs from noname companies do not always follow >> this rule. >> >> For most of our purposes, using a 50 or 75 Ohm connector really does >> not matter. Look at all the rules that were broken when 10base2 was >> popular, especially when people added very short little BNC jumpers, >> when the Tee was just a little too tight against the back of the >> machine. Somehow the stuff still worked fine. > > That's true. Back in my days of 10Base2, I found a great deal on 75 ohm BNC > connectors (the quick-connect, with a threaded hole to secure the coax cable > and braid. RG-58 is a bit too small in its OD for the 75 ohm BNC connectors. > I took some thinwall brass tubing that I had on hand to make up the > difference in cable size, soldered the braid to it and threaded the result > into the connector. > Don't forget the joys of vampire taps! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Apr 20 14:27:43 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <20130420120314.B17651@shell.lmi.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <20130420120314.B17651@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, Doug Jackson wrot > e: >>> Oh no! >>> We *can't* increase the subject line >>> length - then it won't format >>> correctly on my TRS-80 model 100 >> > On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote > : >> That's a good reason. ;) >> How many columns can the model 100 dis >> play? >>> > > Not anywhere close to enough for modern > communication. Besides, it won't proper > ly display dancing kangaroos and yodelli > ng jellyfish. Ok, who is going to take this up a notch and reply with a VIC-20? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From b4 at gewt.net Sat Apr 20 14:41:02 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 19:41:02 -0000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <20130420120314.B17651@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, geneb wrote: > > On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, Doug Jackson wrot >> e: >>>> Oh no! >>>> We *can't* increase the subject line >>>> length - then it won't format >>>> correctly on my TRS-80 model 100 >>> >> On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote >> : >>> That's a good reason. ;) >>> How many columns can the model 100 dis >>> play? >>>> >> >> Not anywhere close to enough for modern >> communication. Besides, it won't proper >> ly display dancing kangaroos and yodelli >> ng jellyfish. > > Ok, who is going to take this up a notch and reply with a VIC-20? > If I had soldering gear I'd reply with a Commodore 64. ;) (I have one of those C64 Direct-to-TV things...not a real C64) > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Apr 20 15:22:24 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 13:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <20130420120314.B17651@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >>> ly display dancing kangaroos and yodelli >>> ng jellyfish. >> >> Ok, who is going to take this up a notch and reply with a VIC-20? >> > > If I had soldering gear I'd reply with a Commodore 64. ;) (I have one of > those C64 Direct-to-TV things...not a real C64) > Cory, check out VICE, a KeyRah and Commodoreserver.com :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 20 15:00:54 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 21:00:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <80CE819E-22E6-4295-A910-4A3E47A33554@gewt.net> from "Cory Smelosky" at Apr 20, 13 03:18:55 am Message-ID: [OT] > Next you'll tell me Fax machines are dying! WWell, mine did a few months back. One of the gears inteh drum drive broke up. Of coruse this is a real analogue fax machine, not of this new-fangled digital stuff. More seriously, I do ahve an Analogue fax machine here, a Xerox Telecopier RX400. It's new enough to have a MOS ASIC for the mtoro speed control, but everythign else is 741 op-amps and discrete transsitors. And eys, the reduction gear for the drum drive did breal up. Fortuantely, the tooth pitch is the same as gears used i nradi-controlled model cars, so the local model shop could provide a couple of suitable gears, I then tuyrend a mild steel hub to put them on. Works fine . Well, it woudl work fine if I could find anything to talk to... -tony From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 08:20:10 2013 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 09:20:10 -0400 Subject: DEC M7522 card (RUX50: RX50 for Unibus) Message-ID: All; I've made a bit of progress in my quest, having serendipitously acquired a DEC M7522 card (RUX50: RX50 for Unibus) as part of a pile-of-parts. It has two obvious problems. 1. A 0.6"-wide 40-pin socketed DIP that is top-center on the board has been trashed (literally, the top scraped off and the die exposed!). (The socketed 82S105 just below it mid-board is just fine.) The ruined chip appears to be a CPU; what is it really? Maybe a T-11? (The FD1796 is somewhat to its right -- midway to the Berg connector, soldered-down, and looks just fine!) 2. A pair of 0.6"-wide 28-pin socketed (presumed) EPROMs (mid-left on the board, next to a pair of HM6264P-15) are missing. What are/were these (type, speed)? The board otherwise looks absolutely perfect, excepting damage to some of the handles. I'm still having no luck finding any documentation for this board; a printset is especially desired. I throw myself onto the good graces of the community to examine that M7522 card that you have in your system (or on your shelf) in order to verify what the apparent-CPU is/was, the EPROM-type/speed (2764? 150ns?), and to either point me to a copy of the EPROM contents for the chip-pair or graciously offer to extract a copy of yours :->. I'd be happy to send some blanks if you have the means to make copies. A quality scan of an intact board would be a helpful start on the chips. Thank you, very much! paul From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Apr 20 16:18:44 2013 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 22:18:44 +0100 Subject: Collection reduction - PDP 11/45 Message-ID: <678D33B288614B7D8662A07F313E9104@XPBOX> Hi all, I'm going to get rid of my PDP11/45. The processor is complete, and has solid state memory (non-DEC), and has power supplies. There is also an RK11 backplane in the processor box (may have some spare cards somewhere). The machine has not been powered for 5 years, and will need the power supplies looking at. There is also a unibus expansion box, with power supply (no cards / options fitted), and an untested RK05 drive. This is all in an original DEC cabinet with side panels and rear door. The machine is to be collected from Southampton, UK. I am open to reasonable offers (I know roughly what I want, but I'll see if I have the value about right!). Thanks Jim. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Apr 20 16:21:03 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 17:21:03 -0400 Subject: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed References: <0394D99459594291B804B7A85AC2CBBE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <00e901ce3aa4$6c990be0$45cb23a0$@tin.it> <516F2043.3010907@gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:20 PM Subject: Re: R: Mylex MAE486-33 BIOS needed > On 04/16/2013 08:15 AM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: >> Are eisa computers really less easy to be found, now ? > > Probably - it's not like they were that common even when new, and I'm sure > most of them went to landfill because they were "just a PC". I can't > believe I got a kick out of finding a PC with ISA slots the other day, but > it's the only one I've seen around here in the last five years, so it > seemed silly not to rescue it :-) > > The board came in the mail, still looking for the BIOS. The board was missing 4 chips, 2 are Dallas RTC chips (DS12887, DS1225) which are easy enough to get, a 27512 (thats the BIOS), and a 8742 (keyboard controller correct). Are all the keyboard controller chips of that era pretty much the same and interchangable? From doug at doughq.com Sat Apr 20 16:56:16 2013 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 07:56:16 +1000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <20130420120314.B17651@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: (grin) The M100 can do 40 characters - And I used to use it as a head on a unix box before i had a real terminal - You had to be *real* patient On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 6:22 AM, geneb wrote: > ly display dancing kangaroos and yodelli >>>> ng jellyfish. >>>> >>> >>> Ok, who is going to take this up a notch and reply with a VIC-20? >>> >>> >> If I had soldering gear I'd reply with a Commodore 64. ;) (I have one of >> those C64 Direct-to-TV things...not a real C64) >> >> Cory, check out VICE, a KeyRah and Commodoreserver.com :D > > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/**coll - > Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Apr 20 19:41:36 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 17:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don Maslin's stuff being sold Message-ID: I have met with Don Maslin's niece and paid her for several boxes of S100 boards. I have also taken four complete machines on consignment. One of these, a Commodore PET 2001-8 with 11 tapes is for auction right now (http://www.ebay.com/itm/330910987205). I will assist Don's niece via email on photographing and packing the remaining machines (which I was unable to pack into my car) for which I will then run auctions when I get settled in Bellingham, WA. I will probably pass this effort along to someone nearer San Diego. Please contact me privately if you wish to assist in this liquidation or take over entirely. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 20:03:19 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 01:03:19 +0000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <20130420120314.B17651@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <554817669-1366506198-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-796298833-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> ?! He doesn't need an emulator, he's got Jeri's hackable dtvs :-) -----Original Message----- From: geneb Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 13:22:24 To: Cory Smelosky Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Who is the moderator of this list? >>> ly display dancing kangaroos and yodelli >>> ng jellyfish. >> >> Ok, who is going to take this up a notch and reply with a VIC-20? >> > > If I had soldering gear I'd reply with a Commodore 64. ;) (I have one of > those C64 Direct-to-TV things...not a real C64) > Cory, check out VICE, a KeyRah and Commodoreserver.com :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 20:14:49 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 01:14:49 +0000 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1427309414-1366506887-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1015699053-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> The point of whoever posted the complaint originally was more of the lines of "300$ or it goes to goodwill". Where one would think perhaps if its trash to the owner the price would become more reasonsable or I would personally suggest pricing the unit out if its in danger of scrap. Obviously some of the cards are desirable and cheaper to offload than the whole system which most of us have. -----Original Message----- From: "MikeS" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 12:15:03 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI ----- Original Message ----- Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 03:46:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Mouse ["MikeS" ] >> I happen to think that I not only have a legal right to choose what to do >> with what most people would consider worthless junk, but that it's really >> none of your business. > Indeed. Until and unless you make it our business, such as by posting on > the list about it. Like I said, I've learned my lesson; since offering something for sale here before it is scrapped is not appreciated and instead earns the censure of folks like you who on principle won't buy it from me anyway, I'll avoid offending you and simply offer it elsewhere and/or scrap it *without* offering it first. > Unless you are also Steven Landon (and maybe even then - see below), or > unless you've pulled such a stunt in the past and I've lost track of it, I > don't see why _you_ are getting bent out of shape over this. I have no love or respect for Landon whatsoever but I can see myself saying exactly the same thing, i.e. "I've got to get rid of some stuff and if I can't sell it by YY/MM/DD then I'm going to give it to Goodwill" (where you could presumably pick it up anyway if you're in a position to pick up in the first place); thus, the critical replies and comments could just as well be directed at me, which is why I stuck my nose in. If I give it to Goodwill or scrap it I never have to think about it again; no waiting for folks to show up who never do, no endless email exchanges, no listening to their complaints, no seeing it on eBay for $100 the next day, etc. etc. and I think I'm entitled to choose whether to put up with those hassles without any compensation. If you think that making my choice clear is emotional blackmail, then so be it. > ...the response from someone who actually cares about the hobby instead of > about yanking others' emotional chains would have been more along the > lines of "oh $#!+, is that what they do? Then...", or perhaps "actually, > I asked them and the real policy here is...". I guess I accepted a long time ago that millions of tons of useful and valuable stuff gets buried, crushed or melted down every day and I don't get as emotional about it as you think I should; if I think it should be saved and am in a position to do so, I will; what other people choose to do is up to them. Sorry if I'm not caring enough about the fate of old computers, or sensitive and considerate enough of your feelings... As I just replied to someone off-list, I find it sad and a little depressing to see the animosity, *judgements* and personal attacks so prevalent on this list, which is after all intended to bring fellow members of a community together to share knowledge, experience etc. and in general help each other... From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Apr 20 20:30:14 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 21:30:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [cctalk] Re: BNC connectors In-Reply-To: <5172DD9E.7070203@neurotica.com> References: <5514B7DA-4272-44B4-A5BF-E24A823D959E@gmail.com> <516EA48F.4020107@xs4all.nl> <516EAE43.2090304@xs4all.nl> <516ECF6B.8030409@neurotica.com> <201304171728.NAA00623@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130417123733.K52566@shell.lmi.net> <41317872-D070-43B1-9285-1B79E651E824@neurotica.com> <3AF8B891-DA37-4ACD-B030-CE657DDC89C9@gmail.com> <517032C3.9030005@gmail.com> <6AD1CD4A-8A97-4A31-BF1E-E99277A1315A@gmail.com> <51708958.6040101@neurotica.com> <5170F997.4030208@gmail.com> <8BF4A508-AF86-402A-8507-947903B51F4E@gmail.com> <5172CF64.2060500@sydex.com> <5172DD9E.7070203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201304210130.VAA17025@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > A little impedance bump like that will have a minimal effect at those > low-ish frequencies. I'm reminded of the time I wanted to extend the an AUI Ethernet with a DA15F, a DA15M, and some cable. I built the extender with about a foot of ribbon cable grabbed from my ribbon cable stock without even thinking about impedance and the like. It worked fine. As an experiment, I made a similar cable with about 25 feet of ribbon cable and it produced floods of errors, to the point where the Ethernet was not usable. Then I worked out that at 10 megabits, a bit on the wire was some 50-100 feet long (figuring effective signal speed as .5 to 1 c, about right for high-frequency signals in copper twisted pairs), so it wasn't much of a surprise that a one-foot impedance bump didn't do much but a 25-foot one did. Mouse From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 20 21:34:33 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 20:34:33 -0600 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <51715C43.5040700@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article , geneb writes: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Richard wrote: > > If you visit my museum in Salt Lake City, I will happily buy you one > > drink. > > > The trip would be worth it for a 12oz drinking glass filled to the brim > with Johnny Walker Blue. :) Beggars can't be choosers. The museum is located next to The Bayou, which has the largest selection of beers of any establishment in Utah and some pretty good food too. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jws at jwsss.com Sat Apr 20 23:02:14 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 21:02:14 -0700 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <51715C43.5040700@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <517364C6.30608@jwsss.com> Louis the XIII Remy Martin up for auction in Paris @ some hotel by the /Arc de Triomphe/ that is shutting down for a 2 year remodel. $9,000 for the bottle (est.). I suspect higher. That would be so fine. Jim On 4/20/2013 10:11 AM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Richard wrote: > >> >> In article , >> geneb writes: >> >>> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Richard wrote: >>> >>>> I'm the moderator of this list and you're all fired! >>>> >>> \o/ >>> >>> You know what this means, don't you?! >>> >>> >>> THE DRINKS ARE ON RICHARD! >> >> If you visit my museum in Salt Lake City, I will happily buy you one >> drink. >> > The trip would be worth it for a 12oz drinking glass filled to the > brim with Johnny Walker Blue. :) > > g. > From rsnodgrass at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 23:14:01 2013 From: rsnodgrass at gmail.com (Ryan Snodgrass) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 21:14:01 -0700 Subject: Wanted: DEC VT100 Message-ID: I am looking for a DEC VT100, or possibly VT102, to add to my computer collection. I spent many years early on programming on VT100/102 series connected to VAX 11/750 and VAX 4000. I've wanted to have one as my terminal for quite some time. Does anyone know of a nice one that is available? Thanks. Ryan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 20 23:21:06 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 21:21:06 -0700 Subject: Wanted: DEC VT100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You might wish to include the general area you'd be able to collect one from. Zane At 9:14 PM -0700 4/20/13, Ryan Snodgrass wrote: >I am looking for a DEC VT100, or possibly VT102, to add to my computer >collection. I spent many years early on programming on VT100/102 series >connected to VAX 11/750 and VAX 4000. I've wanted to have one as my >terminal for quite some time. Does anyone know of a nice one that is >available? Thanks. >Ryan -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 00:09:43 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 01:09:43 -0400 Subject: Wanted: DEC VT100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 12:21 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > You might wish to include the general area you'd be able to collect one > from. Indeed. I have multiple terminals in central Ohio. Given enough time to organize, I can even deliver to various classic-computer events (since shipping is kind of a big deal with terminals). -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Apr 21 00:52:33 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 22:52:33 -0700 Subject: floppies In-Reply-To: <20130420100453.B16237@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <51718999.1010108@xs4all.nl> , <20130420100453.B16237@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I'll have to try that but I think I'll start with a six packto make sure my hands are steady.Dwight > Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2013 10:16:32 -0700 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: floppies > > > > > For the 16 hole punches, I'm asking $35 plus postage.Dwight > > > I might be interested in an unpunch. > On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Sorry Fred I've not figured out how to do that.Once I did that a 10 hole > > 5-1/4. I cut the envelopeoff around the diameter of the holes on one > > side andput pieces of foil tape over most of the holes.No way to easily > > automate that though.Dwight > > If you just turn the whole thing over, that unpunches ALL of the holes, > including the write-enable notch. :-) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 02:11:46 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 08:11:46 +0100 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <51715C43.5040700@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51739132.6070002@gmail.com> On 21/04/2013 03:34, Richard wrote: > In article , > geneb writes: > >> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Richard wrote: >>> If you visit my museum in Salt Lake City, I will happily buy you one >>> drink. >>> >> The trip would be worth it for a 12oz drinking glass filled to the brim >> with Johnny Walker Blue. :) > Beggars can't be choosers. The museum is located next to The Bayou, > which has the largest selection of beers of any establishment in Utah > and some pretty good food too. Richard If I make it out there again, and get time to visit you, rather than take my son shopping at Utah IKEA which I did last time, I'll buy you the drink.... Dave From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Sun Apr 21 08:33:30 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 09:33:30 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <5171DB75.9080900@neurotica.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <668B9300-5ECD-4E09-909B-0FA40C8E4492@gewt.net> <20130419125623.C97347@shell.lmi.net> <5171BBBC.8080608@sbcglobal.net> <5171DB75.9080900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5173EAAA.2020003@sbcglobal.net> On 4/19/2013 8:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/19/2013 05:48 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Yeah, I remember when this walk "debated" a few years ago... It's really >> no big deal. Any half-decent MUA can filter based upon a particular email >> address in the To, From, CC, of BCC fields. Even Eudora (I think.. ;) >> >> Subject tagging ain't gonna happen. Plus, if you're smart enough to >> resuscitate a classic computer, you should have enough brains to figure out >> how to add an email filter... > [head explodes] > > Is it really so difficult for people to understand that the people who want > subject tagging DO NOT WANT IT FOR SORTING PURPOSES? > > WTF? > > -Dave > Actually, YES IT IS! If not for sorting, then what other reason is there for taking up valuable space at the beginning of the subject line? As a side note, having the tag in the subject line would _impair_ sorting for me. Since I read the mail on a device with small screen, I don't see much of the subject line at all.. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "...Talking to you is like clapping with one hand." Anthrax, "Caught in a mosh" From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Apr 21 10:37:35 2013 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 10:37:35 -0500 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI References: Message-ID: <5BE8474A3F4D4BFF893CC30E16DA0937@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 01:14:49 +0000 From: "Sam O'nella" > The point of whoever posted the complaint originally was more of the lines > of "300$ or it goes to goodwill". I got the point the first time, thanks; he could also have read it as: "I need to get rid of the following items and would like $xxx; if no one is prepared to make an offer that's worth my while I'll donate them to charity." As Richard says, if you want 'em and are prepared to pick them up, make an offer; Landon's not a committed generous collector, he's a dealer with a dubious rep, and IMO the prices are actually reasonable by ebay standards. If not, move on; don't waste time bitching because you don't like Landon and his prices or Goodwill's policies, think he *should* be prepared to ship and/or break them down for parts, etc. etc. They're PCs and Macs, not Kenbaks or PDP-6s... But bitching at/about other people is what this list is largely about these days, alas... From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 21 10:03:00 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 11:03:00 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <5173EAAA.2020003@sbcglobal.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <668B9300-5ECD-4E09-909B-0FA40C8E4492@gewt.net> <20130419125623.C97347@shell.lmi.net> <5171BBBC.8080608@sbcglobal.net> <5171DB75.9080900@neurotica.com> <5173EAAA.2020003@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5173FFA4.3010304@neurotica.com> On 04/21/2013 09:33 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>> Yeah, I remember when this walk "debated" a few years ago... It's really >>> no big deal. Any half-decent MUA can filter based upon a particular email >>> address in the To, From, CC, of BCC fields. Even Eudora (I think.. ;) >>> >>> Subject tagging ain't gonna happen. Plus, if you're smart enough to >>> resuscitate a classic computer, you should have enough brains to figure out >>> how to add an email filter... >> [head explodes] >> >> Is it really so difficult for people to understand that the people who want >> subject tagging DO NOT WANT IT FOR SORTING PURPOSES? >> >> WTF? > > Actually, YES IT IS! Despite the fact that I've explained it, what, three times in this thread alone? Not agreeing with my reasoning (and my personal preferences) is not a valid reason to say that there is no other reason. Feel free to not like the same things I like. That doesn't bother me at all with very personal stuff like email presentation preferences. But don't say my preference is invalid just because you do not share it. > If not for sorting, then what other reason is there > for taking up valuable space at the beginning of the subject line? I will explain it a fourth time. I PREFER IT. I am a very high-email-volume person, and I do not have my inbound mail sorted. I have the capability (something like three different ways) but I prefer not to, because I don't want to go check a dozen different mail spools, as I will inevitably fall behind on one or more of them. Instead, I go through it chronologically, and messages from every other list I'm on (seriously, all of them!) use subject tagging. THIS list is the weird one that stands out. (well, I guess I mean *doesn't* stand out ;)) Either way, though...I've now set up a Sieve script (Sieve is basically Procmail brought into this decade) which rewrites the subject as the messages come in. It works nicely and I am happy, with no impact to other listmembers. > As a side note, having the tag in the subject line would _impair_ sorting > for me. Since I read the mail on a device with small screen, I don't see much > of the subject line at all.. Since all reasonable mail clients can sort on list headers, and this list has perfect list headers, why on Earth would that break your mail client's sorting? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 10:08:24 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 11:08:24 -0400 Subject: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: <5BE8474A3F4D4BFF893CC30E16DA0937@vl420mt> References: <5BE8474A3F4D4BFF893CC30E16DA0937@vl420mt> Message-ID: > But bitching at/about other people is what this list is largely about these > days, alas... Yes. I am giving the Vintage Computer Forum another look - and I like what I see. There seems to finally be a nice critical mass of people interested in stuff I am interested in as well, and it is so much easier to ignore topics that bore me. And SO much less noise. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 21 10:17:20 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 11:17:20 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: References: <5BE8474A3F4D4BFF893CC30E16DA0937@vl420mt> Message-ID: <51740300.8070403@neurotica.com> On 04/21/2013 11:08 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> But bitching at/about other people is what this list is largely about these >> days, alas... > > Yes. > > I am giving the Vintage Computer Forum another look - and I like what > I see. There seems to finally be a nice critical mass of people > interested in stuff I am interested in as well, and it is so much > easier to ignore topics that bore me. > > And SO much less noise. Do you know if there's a way to access it via email, as opposed to just via a web browser? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 21 10:25:26 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 11:25:26 -0400 Subject: SDSX.SYS in RT-11 Message-ID: <517404E6.1030105@compsys.to> Has anyone been able to successfully use SDSX.SYS under a Mapped RT-11 Monitor? Or does it have a bug and if so, does anyone have a fix? For as long as I can remember, I have used SDX.SYS (= SDHX.SYS) to debug my programs under RT-11. Unfortunately, the SDHX.SYS variant freezes everything in RT-11 (all jobs, device drivers, monitor and even the clock) when the program is stopped at a breakpoint. Note that DEC supplies two variants of SDX.SYS which execute under Mapped RT-11 Monitors: (a) SDHX.SYS which is called HARD (b) SDSX.SYS which is called SOFT In both cases, the file of the chosen variant MUST be copied to SDX.SYS before that variant can be used. Obviously, only one variant can be used at a time. Very recently, I had the occasion to link VDT.OBJ (the ODT variant modified into VDT) into my program and I found that other jobs were no longer frozen. I hoped that SDSX.SYS => SDX.SYS might produce the same result. However, not only does SDSX.SYS not perform in that manner, but as soon as I attempt to activate other jobs (almost always, those other jobs are KED variants executing as system jobs which display the listing for the potion of the program which is being debugged) which are in an IOWAIT state (holding for keyboard input), RT-11 usually crashes immediately, especially when the breakpoint is in the RT-11 monitor. Does anyone have any experience with SDSX.SYS which is different, specifically when SDSX.SYS actually works and still allows other jobs to execute at the same time while one job is stopped at a breakpoint under SDSX.SYS and the other jobs are KED variants which are displaying a listing of the program which is being debugged. While SDHX.SYS works perfectly, since it freezes everything when the program is stopped at a breakpoint, I had hoped that SDSX.SYS would allow the other jobs to move to other portions of the listing as other portions of the code were being executed, often instruction by instruction. In case this information is helpful, the other system jobs which are executing KED variants have opened the listing file in READ ONLY / INSPECT mode, and no other file requests are being executed. I had somehow hoped that if VDT could execute correctly but still allow other jobs to continue, that SDSX.SYS might also allow that as well. Can anyone help or at least comment? Am I doing anything wrong? Is there a bug in SDSX.SYS which no one else has found? While I am using a Mapped Monitor which has Multi-Terminal support, the same problem is present when the DEC distributed monitor, RT11XM.SYS without Multi-Terminal support is used. While must be used with the same terminal to re-activate a system job, when SDSX.SYS is used, the same problem occurs. So does SDSX.SYS have a bug and if so, does anyone have a fix? Jerome Fine From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 21 10:26:56 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 11:26:56 -0400 Subject: oops...subject tagging ;) Message-ID: <51740540.6080908@neurotica.com> And of course my newly-tagged subject lines leak out when I reply. ;) Sorry about that...I will either remember to trim them, or disable my inbound subject rewriting. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 10:32:46 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 16:32:46 +0100 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI In-Reply-To: <51740300.8070403@neurotica.com> References: <5BE8474A3F4D4BFF893CC30E16DA0937@vl420mt> <51740300.8070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5174069E.5010802@gmail.com> On 21/04/2013 16:17, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/21/2013 11:08 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> But bitching at/about other people is what this list is largely about these >>> days, alas... >> Yes. >> >> I am giving the Vintage Computer Forum another look - and I like what >> I see. There seems to finally be a nice critical mass of people >> interested in stuff I am interested in as well, and it is so much >> easier to ignore topics that bore me. >> >> And SO much less noise. > Do you know if there's a way to access it via email, as opposed to just via > a web browser? It has an RSS feed that you can use to read without visiting the web site http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/external.php at present I mostly use this interface from my mobile to read when on the move > -Dave > From rsnodgrass at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 11:45:50 2013 From: rsnodgrass at gmail.com (Ryan Snodgrass) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 09:45:50 -0700 Subject: Wanted: DEC VT100 Message-ID: Sorry, forgot to mention I'm in the Seattle area (but travel around the Pacific NW quite frequently). At 9:14 PM -0700 4/20/13, Ryan Snodgrass wrote: >I am looking for a DEC VT100, or possibly VT102, to add to my computer >collection. I spent many years early on programming on VT100/102 series >connected to VAX 11/750 and VAX 4000. I've wanted to have one as my >terminal for quite some time. Does anyone know of a nice one that is >available? Thanks. >Ryan From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 21 12:23:48 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 17:23:48 -0000 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI References: <5BE8474A3F4D4BFF893CC30E16DA0937@vl420mt> <51740300.8070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/21/2013 11:08 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> But bitching at/about other people is what this list is largely about these >>> days, alas... >> >> Yes. >> >> I am giving the Vintage Computer Forum another look - and I like what >> I see. There seems to finally be a nice critical mass of people >> interested in stuff I am interested in as well, and it is so much >> easier to ignore topics that bore me. >> >> And SO much less noise. > > Do you know if there's a way to access it via email, as opposed to just via > a web browser? Hmmmm. Interesting question. If not, I suppose you could do some magic and create a relay. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From b4 at gewt.net Sun Apr 21 12:26:00 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 17:26:00 -0000 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Last chance on Local Pickup machines in Flushing MI References: <5BE8474A3F4D4BFF893CC30E16DA0937@vl420mt> <51740300.8070403@neurotica.com> <5174069E.5010802@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2013, Dave wrote: > > On 21/04/2013 16:17, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 04/21/2013 11:08 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>> But bitching at/about other people is what this list is largely about these >>>> days, alas... >>> Yes. >>> >>> I am giving the Vintage Computer Forum another look - and I like what >>> I see. There seems to finally be a nice critical mass of people >>> interested in stuff I am interested in as well, and it is so much >>> easier to ignore topics that bore me. >>> >>> And SO much less noise. >> Do you know if there's a way to access it via email, as opposed to just via >> a web browser? > > It has an RSS feed that you can use to read without visiting the web site > That can't do posting though, can it? > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/external.php > > at present I mostly use this interface from my mobile to read when on > the move > > > > > >> -Dave >> > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 21 13:30:00 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 12:30:00 -0600 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51739132.6070002@gmail.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <51715C43.5040700@sbcglobal.net> <51739132.6070002@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51739132.6070002 at gmail.com>, Dave writes: > If I make it out there again, and get time to visit you, rather than > take my son shopping at Utah IKEA which I did last time, I'll buy you > the drink.... cctalk'ers are always welcome! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From barythrin at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 19:11:15 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 00:11:15 +0000 Subject: Don Maslin's stuff being sold Message-ID: <756668412-1366589470-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-804074043-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Kudos btw for helping the family out and with the pricing. From arrowrunner at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 19:29:51 2013 From: arrowrunner at gmail.com (Beau Walker) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 20:29:51 -0400 Subject: Northstar C5 Bus - Any interest or any details on what this is? Message-ID: A member from the vintage computer forum suggested that I post this here before throwing it in the scrap pile. I'd much rather make a couple dollars or trade and see it go to someone that might use it or need it anyway. http://s253.photobucket.com/user/arrow_runner/media/20130408_175701_zps5d7ba3ad.jpg.html http://s253.photobucket.com/user/arrow_runner/media/20130408_175710_zpsb4ffc377.jpg.html From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 20:24:35 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 21:24:35 -0400 Subject: Northstar C5 Bus - Any interest or any details on what this is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6979EA8B-3C5A-48A8-A2B6-6923E12D3025@gmail.com> On Apr 21, 2013, at 8:29 PM, Beau Walker wrote: > A member from the vintage computer forum suggested that I post this here > before throwing it in the scrap pile. I'd much rather make a couple dollars > or trade and see it go to someone that might use it or need it anyway. Looks like an 8-bit ISA backplane, though I couldn't be 100% sure. Not familiar with that one, though it definitely doesn't look like S-100. If anyone has an S-100 backplane (of any type or size) and is looking to sell or trade, I'm interested. I have a few of the N8VEM S-100 boards, but nothing to attach them to so far (and it looks like they won't be making their backplane any time soon). - Dave From arrowrunner at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 20:34:10 2013 From: arrowrunner at gmail.com (Beau Walker) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 21:34:10 -0400 Subject: Northstar C5 Bus - Any interest or any details on what this is? In-Reply-To: <6979EA8B-3C5A-48A8-A2B6-6923E12D3025@gmail.com> References: <6979EA8B-3C5A-48A8-A2B6-6923E12D3025@gmail.com> Message-ID: I just tried a card in it and it does seem to be an ISA backplane of some sort. On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 9:24 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 21, 2013, at 8:29 PM, Beau Walker wrote: > > > A member from the vintage computer forum suggested that I post this here > > before throwing it in the scrap pile. I'd much rather make a couple > dollars > > or trade and see it go to someone that might use it or need it anyway. > > Looks like an 8-bit ISA backplane, though I couldn't be 100% > sure. Not familiar with that one, though it definitely doesn't > look like S-100. > > If anyone has an S-100 backplane (of any type or size) and is > looking to sell or trade, I'm interested. I have a few of the > N8VEM S-100 boards, but nothing to attach them to so far (and > it looks like they won't be making their backplane any time > soon). > > > - Dave > > -- Sent from My Hippopotamus From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Apr 21 21:10:41 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 21:10:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Northstar C5 Bus - Any interest or any details on what this is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2013, Beau Walker wrote: > A member from the vintage computer forum suggested that I post this here > before throwing it in the scrap pile. I'd much rather make a couple dollars > or trade and see it go to someone that might use it or need it anyway. > > http://s253.photobucket.com/user/arrow_runner/media/20130408_175701_zps5d7ba3ad.jpg.html > > http://s253.photobucket.com/user/arrow_runner/media/20130408_175710_zpsb4ffc377.jpg.html I'm going to have to agree with Andrew, I think this is probably from a Northstar Dimension. Those machines supported 12 hosts via CPU cards, so the number of slots also seems about right. The main host was an 80186 and each of the CPU cards had an 8088. If you don't find a taker here, someone on eBay may want it. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Apr 21 21:22:18 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 21:22:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Northstar C5 Bus - Any interest or any details on what this is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Apr 2013, Tothwolf wrote: > On Sun, 21 Apr 2013, Beau Walker wrote: > >> A member from the vintage computer forum suggested that I post this here >> before throwing it in the scrap pile. I'd much rather make a couple dollars >> or trade and see it go to someone that might use it or need it anyway. >> >> http://s253.photobucket.com/user/arrow_runner/media/20130408_175701_zps5d7ba3ad.jpg.html >> >> http://s253.photobucket.com/user/arrow_runner/media/20130408_175710_zpsb4ffc377.jpg.html > > I'm going to have to agree with Andrew, I think this is probably from a > Northstar Dimension. Those machines supported 12 hosts via CPU cards, so > the number of slots also seems about right. The main host was an 80186 > and each of the CPU cards had an 8088. If you don't find a taker here, > someone on eBay may want it. Confirmed. This is indeed the backplane board for a Northstar Dimension. The connector on the bottom connects to the main processor board. See the North Star DIMENSION Technical Manual available here: http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/northstar/Dimension/North%20Star%20DIMENSION%20Technical%20Manual%2003739B.pdf pp137-140 Power supply voltages pp151-152 Bus PCB removal From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 06:56:00 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 07:56:00 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> <51715D27.4090600@sbcglobal.net> <20130419103844.U97347@shell.lmi.net> <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51752550.10800@gmail.com> Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 04/19/2013 01:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On 04/19/2013 06:14 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >>>> Who's on first. >> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>> I don't know. >> >> THIRD BASE! >> > What? No, he's on second. Peace... Sridhar From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 22 08:50:10 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:50:10 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51752550.10800@gmail.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> <51715D27.4090600@sbcglobal.net> <20130419103844.U97347@shell.lmi.net> <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> <51752550.10800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51754012.4010401@sbcglobal.net> On 04/22/2013 07:56 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> On 04/19/2013 01:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> On 04/19/2013 06:14 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >>>>> Who's on first. >>> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>>> I don't know. >>> >>> THIRD BASE! >>> >> What? > > No, he's on second. > WHo is? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 22 08:58:28 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:58:28 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <5173FFA4.3010304@neurotica.com> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <668B9300-5ECD-4E09-909B-0FA40C8E4492@gewt.net> <20130419125623.C97347@shell.lmi.net> <5171BBBC.8080608@sbcglobal.net> <5171DB75.9080900@neurotica.com> <5173EAAA.2020003@sbcglobal.net> <5173FFA4.3010304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51754204.2020807@sbcglobal.net> On 04/21/2013 11:03 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/21/2013 09:33 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>>> Yeah, I remember when this walk "debated" a few years ago... It's really >>>> no big deal. Any half-decent MUA can filter based upon a particular email >>>> address in the To, From, CC, of BCC fields. Even Eudora (I think.. ;) >>>> >>>> Subject tagging ain't gonna happen. Plus, if you're smart enough to >>>> resuscitate a classic computer, you should have enough brains to figure out >>>> how to add an email filter... >>> [head explodes] >>> >>> Is it really so difficult for people to understand that the people who want >>> subject tagging DO NOT WANT IT FOR SORTING PURPOSES? >>> >>> WTF? >> >> Actually, YES IT IS! > > Despite the fact that I've explained it, what, three times in this thread > alone? Not agreeing with my reasoning (and my personal preferences) is not a > valid reason to say that there is no other reason. Feel free to not like the > same things I like. That doesn't bother me at all with very personal stuff > like email presentation preferences. But don't say my preference is invalid > just because you do not share it. Actually, if you did explain your reason, I apologize. I missed it. And I never said your reason was invalid, I just wanted to know what it was >> If not for sorting, then what other reason is there >> for taking up valuable space at the beginning of the subject line? > > I will explain it a fourth time. I PREFER IT. I am a very > high-email-volume person, and I do not have my inbound mail sorted. I have > the capability (something like three different ways) but I prefer not to, > because I don't want to go check a dozen different mail spools, as I will > inevitably fall behind on one or more of them. > > Instead, I go through it chronologically, and messages from every other > list I'm on (seriously, all of them!) use subject tagging. THIS list is the > weird one that stands out. (well, I guess I mean *doesn't* stand out ;)) So, you do use it for sorting, in a method different from what others were thinking. > Either way, though...I've now set up a Sieve script (Sieve is basically > Procmail brought into this decade) which rewrites the subject as the messages > come in. It works nicely and I am happy, with no impact to other listmembers. > >> As a side note, having the tag in the subject line would _impair_ sorting >> for me. Since I read the mail on a device with small screen, I don't see much >> of the subject line at all.. > > Since all reasonable mail clients can sort on list headers, and this list > has perfect list headers, why on Earth would that break your mail client's > sorting? It doesn't break the mail client's sorting; that does just fine. It' the sorting in my head. I go through the list, looking a specific subjects. And after seeing your reasoning, I don't like the tag, for sorting, in the same way you _do_ like it. Kind of ironic, wouldn't you say? ;) With that being said, it's safe to say this thread is toast, and we're good...? [offering hand-shake to Mr. McGuire...] -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 09:24:43 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 07:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51754012.4010401@sbcglobal.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> <51715D27.4090600@sbcglobal.net> <20130419103844.U97347@shell.lmi.net> <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> <51752550.10800@gmail.com> <51754012.4010401@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130422072038.U51296@shell.lmi.net> > >>>>> Who's on first. > >>>> I don't know. > >>> THIRD BASE! > >> What? > > No, he's on second. On Mon, 22 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > WHo is? Who is on first. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 22 09:49:23 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 07:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari DRAM smuggling(?) Message-ID: Interesting read about Atari in the 80's. http://www.atarileaks.org/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 10:44:42 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 11:44:42 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51754012.4010401@sbcglobal.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> <51715D27.4090600@sbcglobal.net> <20130419103844.U97347@shell.lmi.net> <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> <51752550.10800@gmail.com> <51754012.4010401@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51755AEA.8060809@gmail.com> Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 04/22/2013 07:56 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>> On 04/19/2013 01:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> On 04/19/2013 06:14 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >>>>>> Who's on first. >>>> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>>>> I don't know. >>>> >>>> THIRD BASE! >>>> >>> What? >> >> No, he's on second. >> > WHo is? No, Who's on first. Peace... Sridhar From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 11:16:45 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 16:16:45 +0000 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? Message-ID: <619526185-1366647403-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-337328890-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Since its already a bit off topic. I was leaving for work this morning and saw my daughters bike which has a little pouch on the front that says "peace" which today I read as "peace sridhar". I guess I should just be happy I'm not seeing "bad wolf". Although I did see that tattooed on a young lady at the local pet store. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 11:26:27 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <20130422072038.U51296@shell.lmi.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <201304190511.BAA19609@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4C2B6BDE-E61C-4D6B-94F2-F200C99E9AEE@gewt.net> <517113BC.5090505@xs4all.nl> <51715D27.4090600@sbcglobal.net> <20130419103844.U97347@shell.lmi.net> <51719DF9.3010503@sbcglobal.net> <51752550.10800@gmail.com> <51754012.4010401@sbcglobal.net> <20130422072038.U51296@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130422092506.C52999@shell.lmi.net> > > >>>>> Who's on first. > > >>>> I don't know. > > >>> THIRD BASE! > > >> What? > > > No, he's on second. > On Mon, 22 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > WHo is? > > Who is on first. If that doesn't make any sense: http://www.baseball-almanac.com/humor4.shtml From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 11:35:52 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 12:35:52 -0400 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <619526185-1366647403-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-337328890-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <619526185-1366647403-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-337328890-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <517566E8.20400@gmail.com> Sam O'nella wrote: > Since its already a bit off topic. I was leaving for work this > morning and saw my daughters bike which has a little pouch on the > front that says "peace" which today I read as "peace sridhar". I guess I'm becoming a bit... infectious. > I guess I should just be happy I'm not seeing "bad wolf". Although I > did see that tattooed on a young lady at the local pet store. I saw that on a t-shirt not that long ago, but I don't remember where. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 11:41:07 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <619526185-1366647403-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-337328890-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <619526185-1366647403-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-337328890-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20130422094023.G52999@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 22 Apr 2013, Sam O'nella wrote: > Since its already a bit off topic. I was leaving for work this morning > and saw my daughters bike which has a little pouch on the front that > says "peace" which today I read as "peace sridhar". > I guess I should just be happy I'm not seeing "bad wolf". Although I did > see that tattooed on a young lady at the local pet store. YKTYBHTLW... From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 11:55:19 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <517566E8.20400@gmail.com> References: <619526185-1366647403-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-337328890-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <517566E8.20400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130422095405.D52999@shell.lmi.net> > > I guess I should just be happy I'm not seeing "bad wolf". Although I > > did see that tattooed on a young lady at the local pet store. > I saw that on a t-shirt not that long ago, but I don't remember where. You've both been staring at the girl in the pet shop. She must be well worth looking at. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 22 13:17:02 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 11:17:02 -0700 Subject: Moving gear Message-ID: <060F790F-203F-4261-9284-B5E74735A47B@shiresoft.com> While this is mainly for folks in the Bay Area, I'm posting this for informational purposes and if anyone happens to be in the Bay Area to help, I'd appreciate it. As many of you know, a couple of years ago I moved out of my shop and put everything into storage. It dawned on me that what I was paying in storage fees would finance a mortgage (ouch!). After a brutal 6 month search, my wife and I found a property that met all (ok almost all) of our criteria. One of the fundamental criteria (which nixed a number of houses that we liked) was that there be a "shop" on the property. This one does. The main level of the shop is 3 rooms totaling ~1000sq ft. Then there's the upstairs which is another ~400sq ft (with 6' head room) and finally the "basement" which is ~250sq ft (with 5' head room). I'll post a link to pictures once I put them up. Remember, this is the shop. The house is *spectacular* and I'll cover that if folks are interested but I'm not going into detail here since it's off topic. This is our retirement property (yes we're getting to that age unfortunately) and is about 180 miles from our current home. On the plus side, the property is almost 10 acres. I spent this past weekend moving ~150 "totes" from storage up to the new shop. I barely made a dent in my storage units. I need help in moving all of this stuff. Much of it is going up to the new place. However, there is a large quantity of stuff that I've acquired that came along for the ride as I was acquiring other stuff. Some of what will *not* be going (more will follow as I dig out more stuff): - Sun gear. I have a number of IPX's, LX's, SS2's, Ultra5's. I don't know the status of them at this point but many of them (especially the Ultra5's) are in great shape and I expect them to be fully functional. - microVAX. I have fair number of these. From pizza box styles to BA123s. - Q-bus based 11s. I have a number of these, but I didn't run across them this weekend so I can't give a complete inventory - 11/34s. I have 2-3 of these. They're pretty well stuffed. I haven't actually run these and they're still in the rack(s). Here are the rules: - I will *not* ship. I'm under serious time pressure and I have *no* time to pack and ship stuff. - I will *not* look for specific stuff. I'm basically a packing robot at this point. I'm operating on a binary decision: go or not. I'm not looking at stuff in detail, there's no time. - You come and help me move, you get to pick stuff that you want (that I'm not taking). - If you don't want to help move, you will be expected to pay a "nominal" value for the item. - If you come to help, I expect you to work. I don't have time to waste on jaw boning. - If you want stuff, I expect you to come...look, (pay), take and leave. - Tell me your availability. I'm doing this on weekends. I will *not* be doing any of this during the week. My "real" job consumes all of that time. Sorry to be a bit blunt but I'm in a bit of a rush and need to get stuff moved. Ideally, everything will be moved by 6/1. Oh, and for those of you who might ask, anything that's left will be sent to WeirdStuff. If you're interested, please contact me off-list. TTFN - Guy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 14:09:52 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 15:09:52 -0400 Subject: Moving gear In-Reply-To: <060F790F-203F-4261-9284-B5E74735A47B@shiresoft.com> References: <060F790F-203F-4261-9284-B5E74735A47B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > Sorry to be a bit blunt but I'm in a bit of a rush and need to get stuff moved. > Ideally, everything will be moved by 6/1. I would help, but I do not think I will be in the Bay Area until a few days later. My redone Western roadtrip plans are still forming up. To any prospective buyers - I could probably haul things back East - nothing as big as a rack, but certainly things in the few-hundred pound class. -- Will From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 22 14:17:51 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 12:17:51 -0700 Subject: Moving gear In-Reply-To: References: <060F790F-203F-4261-9284-B5E74735A47B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <64A494B1-54BB-4841-A1E9-68E6B9FCE495@shiresoft.com> On Apr 22, 2013, at 12:09 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Sorry to be a bit blunt but I'm in a bit of a rush and need to get stuff moved. >> Ideally, everything will be moved by 6/1. > > I would help, but I do not think I will be in the Bay Area until a few > days later. My redone Western roadtrip plans are still forming up. > > To any prospective buyers - I could probably haul things back East - > nothing as big as a rack, but certainly things in the few-hundred > pound class. > I've set 6/1 as my move out date because if I miss it I have to pay an entire months rent. However, since this is spread among several units it's not the end of the world if I'm still in one or two. I just really, really want to be out of them ASAP. TTFN - Guy From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 17:37:52 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 18:37:52 -0400 Subject: KA655 SLU without proper bulkhead Message-ID: <535EDCE2-672F-4153-B1B0-7FF8F8C6E53E@gmail.com> Hey all, I recently acquired a KA655-AA (MicroVAX 3800/3900 CPU) and some appropriate RAM, and I'm having trouble grokking the console SLU output. If I'm reading the docs correctly (and I have to go all the way back to the KA630 docs to find the proper switch polarity), if I'm running it without a bulkhead attached at all, the serial speed should be 300 baud. When my terminal is running at 300, 8 bit, no parity, 1 stop bit, I get some garbage on screen but not much more. Am I missing something? Do I need to do some magic with the front panel ports to make it cooperate? I'm using a DB25 serial cable that I've been using on my KDF11-B CPU board with no trouble; if I look at the docs, it looks like it should be fine assuming I can let DTR float (it's unused in my cable, since it's an external clock pin on the KDF11-B). I can also see the LEDs on the spine of the CPU counting down, though I didn't watch for long enough to see if they ever got to zero. As far as I know, the memory is connected OK and works, though I assume I don't really need that if I just want to see a console prompt. I'm using a very short (~3") 50-pin SCSI ribbon cable, which I assume is OK. And it's an MS650-BA, which the KA655 manual specifically calls out, because the -AA is too slow. - Dave From bob at jfcl.com Mon Apr 22 17:40:49 2013 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 15:40:49 -0700 Subject: DECnet MOP download file formats?? Message-ID: <00cb01ce3faa$701dbb70$50593250$@com> I've got a little "satellite" PDP-11/23 with just a CPU, memory , some serial ports and a BDV11 bootstrap card. One of the serial ports is connected to a bigger PDP-11 running RSX-11M+ and DECnet-11M. My goal is to use the DECnet MOP bootstrap built into the BDV11 to download a "bare metal" application from the RSX system on the bigger -11. So far, so good. After a little twiddling with the DECnet configuration I've got it so that I can trigger the BDV11 boot and the host will download the secondary and tertiary loaders to the satellite. Amazing :-) Now the problem is for me to write some application for the tertiary loader to download. Writing a PDP-11 assembly program is not an issue for me, and I've got MACRO-11 and TKB on the host system, but I don't know exactly what DECnet wants. How is the application system image supposed to be made? What's the file format that DECnet wants to download? It's probably made with TKB in some way, but what are the proper TKB options? Where (in memory) does it get loaded on the satellite? What address does it start execution at ? Is the MMU turned on? Is the I/O page mapped? Are any useful values (e.g. a pointer to a valid stack, the address of the download device CSR, etc) passed in the registers? So many questions ! Can anybody point me to documentation on this, or an example of a little program that gets downloaded via DECnet MOP? In the olden days, people probably would have generated an RSX-11S system and downloaded that, but I don't have an 11S kit so that's not an option. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From b4 at gewt.net Mon Apr 22 17:53:46 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 22:53:46 -0000 Subject: DECnet MOP download file formats?? References: <00cb01ce3faa$701dbb70$50593250$@com> Message-ID: <48583922-24E6-464F-A101-E8DEEE399685@gewt.net> On 22 Apr 2013, at 18:40, "Bob Armstrong" wrote: > > I've got a little "satellite" PDP-11/23 with just a CPU, memory , some > serial ports and a BDV11 bootstrap card. One of the serial ports is > connected to a bigger PDP-11 running RSX-11M+ and DECnet-11M. My goal is to > use the DECnet MOP bootstrap built into the BDV11 to download a "bare metal" > application from the RSX system on the bigger -11. > > > > So far, so good. After a little twiddling with the DECnet configuration > I've got it so that I can trigger the BDV11 boot and the host will download > the secondary and tertiary loaders to the satellite. Amazing :-) Now the > problem is for me to write some application for the tertiary loader to > download. Writing a PDP-11 assembly program is not an issue for me, and > I've got MACRO-11 and TKB on the host system, but I don't know exactly what > DECnet wants. > > > > How is the application system image supposed to be made? What's the file > format that DECnet wants to download? It's probably made with TKB in some > way, but what are the proper TKB options? Where (in memory) does it get > loaded on the satellite? What address does it start execution at ? Is the > MMU turned on? Is the I/O page mapped? Are any useful values (e.g. a > pointer to a valid stack, the address of the download device CSR, etc) > passed in the registers? So many questions ! > > > > Can anybody point me to documentation on this, or an example of a little > program that gets downloaded via DECnet MOP? > > > > In the olden days, people probably would have generated an RSX-11S system > and downloaded that, but I don't have an 11S kit so that's not an option. Does the trailing-edge ftp site have any RSX-11S kits? > > > > Thanks, > > Bob Armstrong > > > From wilson at dbit.com Mon Apr 22 18:08:53 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 19:08:53 -0400 Subject: DECnet MOP download file formats?? In-Reply-To: <00cb01ce3faa$701dbb70$50593250$@com> References: <00cb01ce3faa$701dbb70$50593250$@com> Message-ID: <20130422230853.GA2462@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 03:40:49PM -0700, Bob Armstrong wrote: >How is the application system image supposed to be made? What's the file >format that DECnet wants to download? It's probably made with TKB in some >way, but what are the proper TKB options? Where (in memory) does it get >loaded on the satellite? What address does it start execution at ? Is the >MMU turned on? Is the I/O page mapped? Are any useful values (e.g. a >pointer to a valid stack, the address of the download device CSR, etc) >passed in the registers? So many questions ! Any chance it's similar to MOP over Ethernet? If so then I think you want a fairly standard .TSK file with important stuff in block 0: +10 (L$BSA) = .word +16 (L$BLDZ) = .word +350 (L$BXFR) = .word +360 (L$BBLK) = .word Further guessing: MMU is off, so I/O page is available for groping. Probably best to load the SP yourself. No idea if anything's guaranteed about the other reg values but of course it's easy to find out what *happens* to be in them. Boot ROMs have a tradition of passing the CSR in R1 and it'd be nice if the pri/sec/etc. loaders did something similar but who knows. John Wilson D Bit From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 18:18:49 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 00:18:49 +0100 Subject: "Don't mess with Texas's old computers" (APR 22 2013) Message-ID: IBM 402 tabulator still in use today... http://kottke.org/13/04/dont-mess-with-texass-old-computers -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 22 19:34:15 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 17:34:15 -0700 Subject: "Don't mess with Texas's old computers" (APR 22 2013) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5175D707.7010306@sydex.com> On 04/22/2013 04:18 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > IBM 402 tabulator still in use today... > > http://kottke.org/13/04/dont-mess-with-texass-old-computers Shoot. I thought you'd discovered a TI ASC still in use somewhere. Wasn't Convex also a Texas coutfit? Jimmy Treybig always acted like a Texan. --Chuck From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 19:37:38 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 17:37:38 -0700 Subject: Intel iPSC/2 on ebay In-Reply-To: <64A494B1-54BB-4841-A1E9-68E6B9FCE495@shiresoft.com> References: <060F790F-203F-4261-9284-B5E74735A47B@shiresoft.com> <64A494B1-54BB-4841-A1E9-68E6B9FCE495@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5175D7D2.6060001@gmail.com> Asking way too much but, interesting anyway. Items 290903888581 and 290903884406 Is one an expansion for the other or does it take both units to make up a complete system ? From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Apr 22 20:27:38 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 20:27:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: "Don't mess with Texas's old computers" (APR 22 2013) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2013, Liam Proven wrote: > IBM 402 tabulator still in use today... > > http://kottke.org/13/04/dont-mess-with-texass-old-computers There are additional photos at ibm-1401.info, some of which were also used in the linked PCWorld article. http://ibm-1401.info/402.html#SparkleFilters From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 20:28:39 2013 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 20:28:39 -0500 Subject: "Don't mess with Texas's old computers" (APR 22 2013) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > IBM 402 tabulator still in use today... > > http://kottke.org/13/04/dont-mess-with-texass-old-computers What I'd like to see are IBM's complete Field Engineer records on that machine, going back to day of deployment. (Hey, if anyone would still have them, it would be IBM.) -- jht From tlindner at macmess.org Mon Apr 22 23:07:14 2013 From: tlindner at macmess.org (tim lindner) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 21:07:14 -0700 Subject: The CoCo-X Project Message-ID: Gary Becker is running a Kickstarter project to create a CoCo 3 replacement motherboard. I'd really like to get one, but it needs more support. http://kck.st/16fAwkf -- tim lindner From roe at liveblockauctions.com Mon Apr 22 19:03:14 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 18:03:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Looking for... Message-ID: Anybody out there eBay tvrsales? I'd buy the disk cleaner immediately and cover shipping, but you don't seem to deal with Canadians... From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 23 01:53:53 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 01:53:53 -0500 Subject: TM100 anywhere? (Kaypro drive woes) Message-ID: <51763001.20608@jbrain.com> Anyone got a working TM100 in their spare parts box? Or, alternatively, anyone up to diagnose a dead TM100 for a fee? The K4+88 needs one. It drags the PSU down completely when plugged in, and the mech won't read a disk with a known good controller. Also, the drives in the K4 (half height, I forgot to write down the model number) run but are out of alignment. If someone is up to aligning them, I'd pay for the efforts. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From doug at blinkenlights.com Tue Apr 23 02:06:25 2013 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 00:06:25 -0700 Subject: Intel iPSC/2 on ebay In-Reply-To: <5175D7D2.6060001@gmail.com> References: <060F790F-203F-4261-9284-B5E74735A47B@shiresoft.com> <64A494B1-54BB-4841-A1E9-68E6B9FCE495@shiresoft.com> <5175D7D2.6060001@gmail.com> Message-ID: They're both stand-alone machines. The first is an iPSC/2 (386), but the second is the original iPSC (286). On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:37 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Asking way too much but, interesting anyway. > > Items 290903888581 and 290903884406 > > Is one an expansion for the other or does it take both units to make up a > complete system ? > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 07:02:38 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 07:02:38 -0500 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ? On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Roe Peterson wrote: > Anybody out there eBay tvrsales? I'd buy the disk cleaner immediately and > cover shipping, but you don't seem to deal with Canadians... > From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 07:13:42 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 12:13:42 +0000 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1562024916-1366719219-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-844865609-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> I haven't seen them on this list but know that the stuff they're selling is Sellam's and technically part of a legal action case. -----Original Message----- From: Roe Peterson Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 18:03:14 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Looking for... Anybody out there eBay tvrsales? I'd buy the disk cleaner immediately and cover shipping, but you don't seem to deal with Canadians... From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 07:53:11 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 12:53:11 +0000 Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? Message-ID: <410895506-1366721588-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-774632416-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Stupid question but do those films (8" or 12") have sound on them like a track or are they purely video slides in a row? (I've really never seen them up close so hollywood is my only incorrect knowledge of how it looks). From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 08:36:14 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 06:36:14 -0700 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Roe Peterson wrote: > Anybody out there eBay tvrsales? I'd buy the disk cleaner immediately and cover shipping, but you don't seem to deal with Canadians... For the curious: http://www.ebay.com/itm/261202842762 Appears to be labeled as an RL01K-AA From mark.darvill at mac.com Tue Apr 23 08:57:09 2013 From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:57:09 +0100 Subject: DG Desktop Generation Manuals Message-ID: Does anyone have any Data General Desktop Generation manuals scanned that they could send me? I am particularly looking for "Desktop Generation Model 20-30 Technical Reference" p/n 014-000767-01 but any other associated DG manuals would be grateful recieved. Also does anyone still have a 16-bit AOS distro, ideally floppy based? I am rebuilding a DG20 and would prefer to install AOS over RDOS. Thanks, Mark From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 23 09:06:08 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Moving gear In-Reply-To: <060F790F-203F-4261-9284-B5E74735A47B@shiresoft.com> References: <060F790F-203F-4261-9284-B5E74735A47B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <201304231406.KAA26686@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > While this is mainly for folks in the Bay Area, Might help to say _which_ Bay Area; I know of at least two (on opposite coats of North America). I'm not in a position to help in either one, which is unfortunate because I like to help and because there are a multiple thinkgs you list which I'd like; fortunate, because I really should not be bringing home more computers at this point. And your shop strikes me as being to drool over. :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Apr 23 09:13:21 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 07:13:21 -0700 Subject: Moving gear In-Reply-To: <201304231406.KAA26686@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <060F790F-203F-4261-9284-B5E74735A47B@shiresoft.com> <201304231406.KAA26686@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <0A96CA00-97CA-4592-9CF8-F04F87EC6FB7@shiresoft.com> On Apr 23, 2013, at 7:06 AM, Mouse wrote: >> While this is mainly for folks in the Bay Area, > > Might help to say _which_ Bay Area; I know of at least two (on opposite > coats of North America). Sorry, San Fransisco bay area. Specifically, the Santa Clara/San Jose area. > > And your shop strikes me as being to drool over. :-) Wait 'til I get pictures posted somewhere. ;-) TTFN - Guy From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 23 09:15:17 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:15:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KA655 SLU without proper bulkhead In-Reply-To: <535EDCE2-672F-4153-B1B0-7FF8F8C6E53E@gmail.com> References: <535EDCE2-672F-4153-B1B0-7FF8F8C6E53E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201304231415.KAA26731@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I recently acquired a KA655-AA (MicroVAX 3800/3900 CPU) and some > appropriate RAM, and I'm having trouble grokking the console SLU > output. [...] if I'm running it without a bulkhead attached at all, > the serial speed should be 300 baud. When my terminal is running at > 300, 8 bit, no parity, 1 stop bit, I get some garbage on screen but > not much more. Have you tried the other speeds the KA630 documentation mentions? It strikes me as possible, at least, that the KA630 interprets those signals differently from the KA655. The other possibility that comes to mind is that its serial output isn't a normal single-ended RS232, but a differential pair (my memory calls that RS432, but I don't know how accurate that is) and you've got the wrong output pin - inverting the data line produces weeeeird data corruption. (I know because I once made that mistake myself and was thoroughly baffled for quite a while until I realized what was up.) > [...]; if I look at the docs, it looks like it should be fine > assuming I can let DTR float (it's unused in my cable, since it's an > external clock pin on the KDF11-B). If you get any output, I would assume, until finding evidence otherwise, that DTR is not an issue. If you can quote some of the garbage you get (preferably a hex dump of the serial-line data, since there may be nonprintable characters in it), we might be able to make guesses from that. In particular, "wrong speed" garbage usually has a very different feel from other kinds of garbage, but in a way I, at least, find difficult to elucidate. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From sales at elecplus.com Tue Apr 23 09:16:47 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 09:16:47 -0500 Subject: old computer museum in WI Message-ID: <022b01ce402d$30a133e0$91e39ba0$@com> With his permission, I am posting this company's info. They are an electronics recycler, and he has a working computer museum. Greg H. DeVoll First Choice Computer Recycling 525 Park Ridge Court Eau Claire, WI 54703 Phone: 715-833-2005 Fax: 715-833-1944 Email: greg at firstchoicerecycling.com He has doubles, triples, and gaylords of most things. Includes old DEC, Apple, old gaming machines including Pong and Commodore, telephones very old rotary, many styles, many new in the box, old test equip, etc. Emails and calls are welcome, and tours are available. He is willing to sell old stuff, and he can test almost anything. He has 40K sq feet. He does not have a website for the museum. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6264 - Release Date: 04/22/13 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 09:21:57 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:21:57 +0100 Subject: Moving gear In-Reply-To: <201304231406.KAA26686@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <060F790F-203F-4261-9284-B5E74735A47B@shiresoft.com> <201304231406.KAA26686@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 23 April 2013 15:06, Mouse wrote: > > Might help to say _which_ Bay Area; I know of at least two (on opposite > coats of North America). I think "Bay Area" pretty much always means California, specifically, San Francisco (I think - never been there myself). There are multiple places called London or Paris, but if someone just refers to the bare name, it's safe to assume they mean the national capital cities, not the small towns in the boondocks - unless you're in that local area. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 09:43:54 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:43:54 -0400 Subject: KA655 SLU without proper bulkhead In-Reply-To: <201304231415.KAA26731@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <535EDCE2-672F-4153-B1B0-7FF8F8C6E53E@gmail.com> <201304231415.KAA26731@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <3C0483D3-C4E0-4453-AF57-4D33FD860EBA@gmail.com> On Apr 23, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Mouse wrote: >> I recently acquired a KA655-AA (MicroVAX 3800/3900 CPU) and some >> appropriate RAM, and I'm having trouble grokking the console SLU >> output. [...] if I'm running it without a bulkhead attached at all, >> the serial speed should be 300 baud. When my terminal is running at >> 300, 8 bit, no parity, 1 stop bit, I get some garbage on screen but >> not much more. > > Have you tried the other speeds the KA630 documentation mentions? It > strikes me as possible, at least, that the KA630 interprets those > signals differently from the KA655. > > The other possibility that comes to mind is that its serial output > isn't a normal single-ended RS232, but a differential pair (my memory > calls that RS432, but I don't know how accurate that is) and you've got > the wrong output pin - inverting the data line produces weeeeird data > corruption. (I know because I once made that mistake myself and was > thoroughly baffled for quite a while until I realized what was up.) Actually, it turned out that the problem was that I was plugging the serial adaptor in upside down (it wasn't keyed and the cable was a rainbow ribbon that did not have brown on pin 1, so oops). I would have figured that out sooner if I hadn't still been seeing data on the line; apparently the Tx makes enough noise on the Rx pins (which are what you plug into if it's upside down) to trigger valid-looking bits on the receiving UART. The standard DEC pinout has single-ended Tx and differential Rx, so I was pretty sure I wasn't receiving backwards. Of course, now I'm receiving at 300 baud, which isn't a LOT better. :-) So now I'm able to boot the VMS install CD, but it hangs after identifying the devices and asking if they're all there. I'm still trying to figure out what the deal is with that, though I suspect it may have something to do with the DLV11J (4x UART) I have in there, because it seems to identify that as 8 TU58s. I'll try installing without that plugged in. Just in case it rings a bell with anyone here, though, if I'm seeing a hang after this, is there anything in particular I should do? I'm booting a SCSI CD drive off a CQD-220, which seems to work OK for booting, at least. ---- If any device does not show up, please take action now to make it available. Available device DUA0: device type RA81 Available device DUA1: device type RA82 Available device DUA2: device type RRD40 Available device MSA0: device type MW_TSV05 Available device DDA0: device type TU58 Available device DDA1: device type TU58 Available device DDB0: device type TU58 Available device DDB1: device type TU58 Available device DDC0: device type TU58 Available device DDC1: device type TU58 Available device DDD0: device type TU58 Available device DDD1: device type TU58 Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: y - Dave From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 23 10:26:31 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 11:26:31 -0400 Subject: KA655 SLU without proper bulkhead In-Reply-To: <201304231415.KAA26731@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <535EDCE2-672F-4153-B1B0-7FF8F8C6E53E@gmail.com> <201304231415.KAA26731@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5176A827.7090905@verizon.net> On 04/23/2013 10:15 AM, Mouse wrote: >> I recently acquired a KA655-AA (MicroVAX 3800/3900 CPU) and some >> appropriate RAM, and I'm having trouble grokking the console SLU >> output. [...] if I'm running it without a bulkhead attached at all, >> the serial speed should be 300 baud. When my terminal is running at >> 300, 8 bit, no parity, 1 stop bit, I get some garbage on screen but >> not much more. > Have you tried the other speeds the KA630 documentation mentions? It > strikes me as possible, at least, that the KA630 interprets those > signals differently from the KA655. you need the bulkhead adaptor to set baud and all. > > The other possibility that comes to mind is that its serial output > isn't a normal single-ended RS232, but a differential pair (my memory > calls that RS432, but I don't know how accurate that is) and you've got > the wrong output pin - inverting the data line produces weeeeird data > corruption. (I know because I once made that mistake myself and was > thoroughly baffled for quite a while until I realized what was up.) Its RS423. Its an abbreviate flavor of RS232 for fewer active pins. >> [...]; if I look at the docs, it looks like it should be fine >> assuming I can let DTR float (it's unused in my cable, since it's an >> external clock pin on the KDF11-B). > If you get any output, I would assume, until finding evidence > otherwise, that DTR is not an issue. > > If you can quote some of the garbage you get (preferably a hex dump of > the serial-line data, since there may be nonprintable characters in > it), we might be able to make guesses from that. In particular, "wrong > speed" garbage usually has a very different feel from other kinds of > garbage, but in a way I, at least, find difficult to elucidate. You will have to make your own cable, that fakes the bulkhead switches. Allison > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From bob at jfcl.com Tue Apr 23 10:55:13 2013 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:55:13 -0700 Subject: DECnet MOP download file formats?? In-Reply-To: <48583922-24E6-464F-A101-E8DEEE399685@gewt.net> References: <00cb01ce3faa$701dbb70$50593250$@com> <48583922-24E6-464F-A101-E8DEEE399685@gewt.net> Message-ID: <005301ce403a$f158c2d0$d40a4870$@com> > Cory Smelosky [mailto:b4 at gewt.net] wrote: >Does the trailing-edge ftp site have any RSX-11S kits? Thanks for the suggestion, but I've been there and Tim doesn't have any. M and M+ distros, yes, but no 11S kits. I've done a pretty extensive Google search and haven't found any RSX-11S kits online - it looks like nobody has preserved them. I did find a RSX-11S System Generation Guide (for v4.1), so if I ever do find a kit I'll know what to do with it :-) Thanks, Bob From bob at jfcl.com Tue Apr 23 10:58:43 2013 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:58:43 -0700 Subject: DECnet MOP download file formats?? In-Reply-To: <20130422230853.GA2462@dbit.dbit.com> References: <00cb01ce3faa$701dbb70$50593250$@com> <20130422230853.GA2462@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <005401ce403b$6e91cc60$4bb56520$@com> > John Wilson [mailto:wilson at dbit.com] wrote: >Any chance it's similar to MOP over Ethernet? No idea, but it's a reasonable guess. > If so then I think you want a fairly standard .TSK file with important stuff in block 0: > >+10 (L$BSA) = .word >+16 (L$BLDZ) = .word >+350 (L$BXFR) = .word >+360 (L$BBLK) = .word Is this all stuff that's in the task header? The RSX system image .SYS file (the one on disk, for booting with the hardware boot) is built without a task header (the TKB /-HD option) and things like the loading and starting addresses are assumed somehow. I was guessing that the .SYS files for MOP download would be the same, but maybe I'm wrong. Bob From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 23 11:07:33 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 11:07:33 -0500 Subject: (US) National Software Reference Library Message-ID: <201304231608.r3NG8qcI068826@mx1.ezwind.net> A government archive of installable software: http://blogs.loc.gov/digitalpreservation/2012/05/life-saving-the-national-software-reference-library/ But I found out about it in reference to this: http://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/1cvgl6/powered_up_48_tb_raid_after_weekend_outage_1832/ - John From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Apr 23 11:18:46 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 12:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KA655 SLU without proper bulkhead In-Reply-To: <5176A827.7090905@verizon.net> References: <535EDCE2-672F-4153-B1B0-7FF8F8C6E53E@gmail.com> <201304231415.KAA26731@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5176A827.7090905@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201304231618.MAA27589@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Have you tried the other speeds [...] > you need the bulkhead adaptor to set baud and all. Doh! Brain fail on my part. > You will have to make your own cable, that fakes the bulkhead > switches. Aye, that's something I would definitely do/suggest. 300 works minimally, but is pretty painful. As I'm sure pretty much everyone here knows from experience. :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 11:26:28 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 12:26:28 -0400 Subject: KA655 SLU without proper bulkhead In-Reply-To: <5176A827.7090905@verizon.net> References: <535EDCE2-672F-4153-B1B0-7FF8F8C6E53E@gmail.com> <201304231415.KAA26731@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5176A827.7090905@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Apr 23, 2013, at 11:26 AM, Allison wrote: > On 04/23/2013 10:15 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> I recently acquired a KA655-AA (MicroVAX 3800/3900 CPU) and some >>> appropriate RAM, and I'm having trouble grokking the console SLU >>> output. [...] if I'm running it without a bulkhead attached at all, >>> the serial speed should be 300 baud. When my terminal is running at >>> 300, 8 bit, no parity, 1 stop bit, I get some garbage on screen but >>> not much more. >> Have you tried the other speeds the KA630 documentation mentions? It >> strikes me as possible, at least, that the KA630 interprets those >> signals differently from the KA655. > > you need the bulkhead adaptor to set baud and all. Or jumpers, but yes. If the switch pins are all open, that does correspond to 300 baud, as expected. >> The other possibility that comes to mind is that its serial output >> isn't a normal single-ended RS232, but a differential pair (my memory >> calls that RS432, but I don't know how accurate that is) and you've got >> the wrong output pin - inverting the data line produces weeeeird data >> corruption. (I know because I once made that mistake myself and was >> thoroughly baffled for quite a while until I realized what was up.) > > Its RS423. Its an abbreviate flavor of RS232 for fewer active pins. It's a weird hybrid, in that there is a differential receiver. But if you ground one leg of the receiver, it's fine. I'm using the same cables that I use on my -11, and that works fine. As I mentioned in an update, it turns out that I had plugged the cable in upside down because it wasn't keyed either mechanically or visually. > You will have to make your own cable, that fakes the bulkhead switches. It's working for now, but I definitely have plans to make a small board to do that; among other things, the bulkhead also supplies the battery power for the NVRAM and switches for run mode, etc. that I need. I just haven't had time yet. - Dave From alan at alanlee.org Tue Apr 23 11:53:42 2013 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 12:53:42 -0400 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <1562024916-1366719219-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-844865609-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1562024916-1366719219-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-844865609-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: Is there still pending litigation? I haven't heard anything in months and there has been no injunction against TVR sales which I assume would be result #1 if Sellam was able to argue an illegal eviction under California law. -Alan Sent from my iPhone 4S On Apr 23, 2013, at 8:13 AM, "Sam O'nella" wrote: > I haven't seen them on this list but know that the stuff they're selling is Sellam's and technically part of a legal action case. > -----Original Message----- > From: Roe Peterson > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 18:03:14 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Looking for... > > Anybody out there eBay tvrsales? I'd buy the disk cleaner immediately and cover shipping, but you don't seem to deal with Canadians... > From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 23 12:19:54 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:19:54 -0400 Subject: (US) National Software Reference Library In-Reply-To: <201304231608.r3NG8qcI068826@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304231608.r3NG8qcI068826@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5176C2BA.7040404@snarc.net> > A government archive of installable software: > > http://blogs.loc.gov/digitalpreservation/2012/05/life-saving-the-national-software-reference-library/ NSRL is part of NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology). One of the main uses of the NSRL database is for digital forensics. For example, if an investigator needs to scour a hard drive, s/he can do what's known in the forensics world as "de-NISTing" -- apply the NSRL images to the drive to automatically remove what's guaranteed NOT to be relevant data. That way there's a much smaller data set to worry about. De-NISTing is also common in civil litigation as part of the electronic discovery process. From wilson at dbit.com Tue Apr 23 12:34:37 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:34:37 -0400 Subject: DECnet MOP download file formats?? In-Reply-To: <005401ce403b$6e91cc60$4bb56520$@com> References: <00cb01ce3faa$701dbb70$50593250$@com> <20130422230853.GA2462@dbit.dbit.com> <005401ce403b$6e91cc60$4bb56520$@com> Message-ID: <20130423173437.GA17809@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 08:58:43AM -0700, Bob Armstrong wrote: >Is this all stuff that's in the task header? Looks that way. >The RSX system image .SYS >file (the one on disk, for booting with the hardware boot) is built without >a task header (the TKB /-HD option) and things like the loading and starting >addresses are assumed somehow. I was guessing that the .SYS files for MOP >download would be the same, but maybe I'm wrong. Here's where I'm getting hazy. I wrote a MOP boot server a few years ago for debugging PDP-11 network booting (last I checked, the "mopd" package doesn't support booting PDP-11s) and my notes show that I was pulling those four fields out of the .TSK header, which should mean that I figured out that that's how DEC does it. But I can't think what my test case must have been (the .SYS files I have are for DSRVA and DSRVB), unless it all came from fiddling with DECnet/RSX's own MOP server. Well it would be very easy to prove me wrong -- making a .TSK file with a stand-alone "Hello world" program would only take a couple of minutes. Or I can send you a FORTH .SYS image I was using for testing on DELQA and DELUA, but it'll take longer to download so testing will get annoying quickly unless it magically works on the first try. John Wilson D Bit From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Apr 23 13:15:01 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:15:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: References: <1562024916-1366719219-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-844865609-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2013, Alan Hightower wrote: > On Apr 23, 2013, at 8:13 AM, "Sam O'nella" wrote: > >> I haven't seen them on this list but know that the stuff they're >> selling is Sellam's and technically part of a legal action case. > > Is there still pending litigation? I haven't heard anything in months > and there has been no injunction against TVR sales which I assume would > be result #1 if Sellam was able to argue an illegal eviction under > California law. Last I heard from Sellam about a week ago, yes. On another note, anyone else notice the dirt and grime smudges on the eBay "certificates" the seller often uses in the background of his photos? You would think that if those certificates were really meaningful in some way that he would have framed them and taken care of them instead of using them as photo props. Of course, they really aren't all that special, I have my own set from when I used to sell stuff on eBay, and in the bottom right corner they are marked "Printed on Recycled Paper" ;) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 13:26:30 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:26:30 -0400 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: References: <1562024916-1366719219-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-844865609-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: > On another note, anyone else notice the dirt and grime smudges on the eBay > "certificates" the seller often uses in the background of his photos? You > would think that if those certificates were really meaningful in some way > that he would have framed them and taken care of them instead of using them > as photo props. Of course, they really aren't all that special, I have my > own set from when I used to sell stuff on eBay, and in the bottom right > corner they are marked "Printed on Recycled Paper" ;) Ebay certificates are not meaningful in any sort of way. I used mine to wrap some fish. -- Will From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 23 14:44:00 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:44:00 -0400 Subject: mopd - Re: DECnet MOP download file formats?? In-Reply-To: <20130423173437.GA17809@dbit.dbit.com> References: <00cb01ce3faa$701dbb70$50593250$@com> <20130422230853.GA2462@dbit.dbit.com> <005401ce403b$6e91cc60$4bb56520$@com> <20130423173437.GA17809@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <5176E480.20700@telegraphics.com.au> On 23/04/13 1:34 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 08:58:43AM -0700, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Is this all stuff that's in the task header? > > Looks that way. > >> The RSX system image .SYS >> file (the one on disk, for booting with the hardware boot) is built without >> a task header (the TKB /-HD option) and things like the loading and starting >> addresses are assumed somehow. I was guessing that the .SYS files for MOP >> download would be the same, but maybe I'm wrong. > > Here's where I'm getting hazy. I wrote a MOP boot server a few years ago > for debugging PDP-11 network booting (last I checked, the "mopd" package > doesn't support booting PDP-11s) Is there a more recent upstream than this fork I had to make? The fixes that this required were probably already done by somebody but this was the most recent code I could get hold of at the time... https://github.com/qu1j0t3/mopd --Toby > and my notes show that I was pulling those > four fields out of the .TSK header, which should mean that I figured out that > that's how DEC does it. But I can't think what my test case must have been > (the .SYS files I have are for DSRVA and DSRVB), unless it all came from > fiddling with DECnet/RSX's own MOP server. > > Well it would be very easy to prove me wrong -- making a .TSK file with a > stand-alone "Hello world" program would only take a couple of minutes. > Or I can send you a FORTH .SYS image I was using for testing on DELQA and > DELUA, but it'll take longer to download so testing will get annoying > quickly unless it magically works on the first try. > > John Wilson > D Bit > From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 23 14:46:44 2013 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 21:46:44 +0200 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0e0894c62adc5f2cd41ddc3727c4dd53.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Roe Peterson > wrote: >> Anybody out there eBay tvrsales? I'd buy the disk cleaner immediately >> and cover shipping, but you don't seem to deal with Canadians... > > For the curious: http://www.ebay.com/itm/261202842762 > Appears to be labeled as an RL01K-AA > Ah, definately an RL01/2 disk platter cleaner. Would be a nice matching device for it's opposite, the RK05 platter cleaner. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Apr 23 14:47:34 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 12:47:34 -0700 Subject: Pics of new shop Message-ID: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> Hi, Here's a link to the pictures of my new shop: http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Apr 23 14:58:15 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 12:58:15 -0700 Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <0e0894c62adc5f2cd41ddc3727c4dd53.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <0e0894c62adc5f2cd41ddc3727c4dd53.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Apr 23, 2013, at 12:46 PM, "E. Groenenberg" wrote: > >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Roe Peterson >> wrote: >>> Anybody out there eBay tvrsales? I'd buy the disk cleaner immediately >>> and cover shipping, but you don't seem to deal with Canadians... >> >> For the curious: http://www.ebay.com/itm/261202842762 >> Appears to be labeled as an RL01K-AA >> > > Ah, definately an RL01/2 disk platter cleaner. > Would be a nice matching device for it's opposite, the RK05 platter cleaner. I have one of those. The issue is the cleaning pads. Mine's still in it's box! TTFN - Guy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 23 14:46:43 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 20:46:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? In-Reply-To: <410895506-1366721588-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-774632416-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> from "Sam O'nella" at Apr 23, 13 12:53:11 pm Message-ID: > > Stupid question but do those films (8" or 12") have sound on them I am puzzled by your reference to 8" and 12" here.... > like a track or are they purely video slides in a row? (I've really > never seen them up close so hollywood is my only incorrect knowledge of > how it looks). AFIAK 16mm cien fil could have ewither na opticla soundtrack or a magnetic one. In the fortmer case, the ausio signal modualted a light source which produced a variable width or density track o nthe film. After processing this was read using a kamp an photocell, the signal fro mthe ltter was the original audio. Or a magnetic soundtrakc, an iron oxide 'stripe' down the film which works like a tape recorder. Super-8 8mm film could have a magnetic soundtrack (I have never heard of opticla sound on such films). I have also never heard of any soundtrack on standard 8 ('double run 8(') or single-8 film. There is aslight techncial problem in that the film moves in jerks (each frame is held i nthe projector gate for projection, then the next one is moved into possition), whereas the sound recording needs a steady motion. The solutuion is the obvious one, Adter goinging throug hte projector gate there is a loop of film, the otuput side of that lopp is then moved at cosntant speed past the audio reproduction device. The loop acts as a 'buffer' between intermittant and continuos motion. -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 15:09:32 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:09:32 -0400 Subject: CMD CQD-220 ROM fixes In-Reply-To: References: <3A825CF4-DBE4-4C06-AC0F-FFB4279B1746@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2012, at 8:53 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 4:57 PM, David Riley wrote: >> >> Last thing: does anyone know the difference between the A7A ROM and the A8? I've not found anything different; I assume it's probably an obscure bugfix. >> > > On my CQD-220/TM with original CMD labeled EPROMs I have F220Y1A8 / > F220Y2A8. Is that the same A8 version to which you refer? > > I also have .HEX files for a CQD-220/TM B2A Release 06/24/94: > 220Y1B2A.HEX > 220Y2B2A.HEX > > And a CQD-220/TM B3 Firmware 09/23/94 > F220Y1B3.HEX > F220Y2B3.HEX > > I wonder what is different between the A8 and B2A and B3 versions. I > don't think I have ever tried loading the B2A or B3 versions on my > CQD-220/TM. Old topic, but somewhat pertinent: Sweden's Update computer club seems to have the release notes filed. ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/doc/cmd/ Are the firmware images still available somewhere? I want to see if updated firmware will fix the hang problem I'm having booting the VMS 7.3 CD (it boots, but hangs while trying to start the standalone backup; this happens when my Pioneer CD drive is jumpered for 512 or 2048 byte blocks). I can't seem to find CMD's site anymore, though I could swear someone linked it around here not long ago. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 23 15:09:56 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pics of new shop In-Reply-To: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> References: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > Here's a link to the pictures of my new shop: > http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html > That looks like a really nice space Guy. Congrats! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 15:34:41 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:34:41 -0700 Subject: CMD CQD-220 ROM fixes In-Reply-To: References: <3A825CF4-DBE4-4C06-AC0F-FFB4279B1746@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 1:09 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Jan 23, 2012, at 8:53 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 4:57 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> >>> Last thing: does anyone know the difference between the A7A ROM and the A8? I've not found anything different; I assume it's probably an obscure bugfix. >>> >> >> On my CQD-220/TM with original CMD labeled EPROMs I have F220Y1A8 / >> F220Y2A8. Is that the same A8 version to which you refer? >> >> I also have .HEX files for a CQD-220/TM B2A Release 06/24/94: >> 220Y1B2A.HEX >> 220Y2B2A.HEX >> >> And a CQD-220/TM B3 Firmware 09/23/94 >> F220Y1B3.HEX >> F220Y2B3.HEX >> >> I wonder what is different between the A8 and B2A and B3 versions. I >> don't think I have ever tried loading the B2A or B3 versions on my >> CQD-220/TM. > > Old topic, but somewhat pertinent: Sweden's Update computer club > seems to have the release notes filed. > > ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/doc/cmd/ > > Are the firmware images still available somewhere? I want to see > if updated firmware will fix the hang problem I'm having booting > the VMS 7.3 CD (it boots, but hangs while trying to start the > standalone backup; this happens when my Pioneer CD drive is > jumpered for 512 or 2048 byte blocks). I can't seem to find CMD's > site anymore, though I could swear someone linked it around here > not long ago. > > > - Dave The most recent CQD-220/TM image I have from the CMD website archive is: CQD-220/TM B3A.02 Firmware - 10/17/95 http://web.archive.org/web/19961226090415/http://www.cmd.com/ftproot/pub/dec/qbus/firmware/22yb3a02.zip From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 15:40:00 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:40:00 -0700 Subject: CMD CQD-220 ROM fixes In-Reply-To: References: <3A825CF4-DBE4-4C06-AC0F-FFB4279B1746@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 1:09 PM, David Riley wrote: > > Are the firmware images still available somewhere? I want to see > if updated firmware will fix the hang problem I'm having booting > the VMS 7.3 CD (it boots, but hangs while trying to start the > standalone backup; this happens when my Pioneer CD drive is > jumpered for 512 or 2048 byte blocks). I can't seem to find CMD's > site anymore, though I could swear someone linked it around here > not long ago. Oh, and BTW, I have never had any issues booting the VMS 7.3 CD on KA630, KA650, KA655, and VAX 4000 CPUs from CMD CQD-220/TM with Plextor SCSI CD-ROM drives. I doubt it is a CQD-220/TM firmware issue, but you never know... -Glen From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 15:44:45 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 13:44:45 -0700 Subject: Pics of new shop In-Reply-To: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> References: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > Here's a link to the pictures of my new shop: > http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html Very nice. Always cool to have a trap door just in case... From sales at elecplus.com Tue Apr 23 15:52:37 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:52:37 -0500 Subject: Pics of new shop In-Reply-To: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> References: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <057201ce4064$7d44ef20$77cecd60$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy Sotomayor Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 2:48 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Pics of new shop Hi, Here's a link to the pictures of my new shop: http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html TTFN - Guy I am jealous; your shop is bigger than my house! Looks like a really cool place to have a workshop. Cindy ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6264 - Release Date: 04/22/13 From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 15:53:39 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:53:39 -0400 Subject: CMD CQD-220 ROM fixes In-Reply-To: References: <3A825CF4-DBE4-4C06-AC0F-FFB4279B1746@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7320DB0D-B9BE-45A9-968C-21DF3109BC36@gmail.com> On Apr 23, 2013, at 4:40 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 1:09 PM, David Riley wrote: >> >> Are the firmware images still available somewhere? I want to see >> if updated firmware will fix the hang problem I'm having booting >> the VMS 7.3 CD (it boots, but hangs while trying to start the >> standalone backup; this happens when my Pioneer CD drive is >> jumpered for 512 or 2048 byte blocks). I can't seem to find CMD's >> site anymore, though I could swear someone linked it around here >> not long ago. > > Oh, and BTW, I have never had any issues booting the VMS 7.3 CD on > KA630, KA650, KA655, and VAX 4000 CPUs from CMD CQD-220/TM with > Plextor SCSI CD-ROM drives. I doubt it is a CQD-220/TM firmware > issue, but you never know... I suspect you're right. The annoying part is that it seems to work fine with the boot, but once it tries to launch standalone BACKUP, it just hangs there. I've verified that the CD is OK; I can attach Simh directly to the disc and it works fine. Do you turn off sync for your CD drive? It's on my list of things to check this evening, but it would be nice to know ahead of time. - Dave From b4 at gewt.net Tue Apr 23 15:59:06 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 20:59:06 -0000 Subject: Pics of new shop References: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 23 Apr 2013, at 16:44, "Glen Slick" wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Here's a link to the pictures of my new shop: >> http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html > > Very nice. Always cool to have a trap door just in case? Now he just needs sharks with lasers. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Apr 23 16:10:05 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:10:05 -0700 Subject: Pics of new shop In-Reply-To: <057201ce4064$7d44ef20$77cecd60$@com> References: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> <057201ce4064$7d44ef20$77cecd60$@com> Message-ID: On Apr 23, 2013, at 1:52 PM, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Guy Sotomayor > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 2:48 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Pics of new shop > > Hi, > > Here's a link to the pictures of my new shop: > http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html > > TTFN - Guy > > I am jealous; your shop is bigger than my house! > Looks like a really cool place to have a workshop. > ;-) Yea, the house is gorgeous too. The main level is 2466 sq ft. The downstairs (house is built into the side of a hill) is the 2-1/2 car garage, laundry room, 900 sq ft "bonus" room and a 625 "equipment room" that contains the HVAC and hot water heater (ie what other houses would call a basement). Oh, and all the ceilings are 10' throughout. TTFN - Guy From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Apr 23 16:19:54 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:19:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Pics of new shop In-Reply-To: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> References: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > Here's a link to the pictures of my new shop: > http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html If only my shop were that clean :) Was the former owner a cabinetmaker or woodworker? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 16:27:50 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:27:50 -0500 Subject: Pics of new shop In-Reply-To: <057201ce4064$7d44ef20$77cecd60$@com> References: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> <057201ce4064$7d44ef20$77cecd60$@com> Message-ID: nice workshop! should see the one i helped build in downtown winnipeg we got 8000sqft were we got 3d printers cnc mills shop bots lazer cutters ect ect ect i pay 100 bukcs a month to have 24/7 access to it http://www.flickr.com/photos/assentworks/ just proud of it as its all vollenteer hrs i've put in along with many others to build it and the 2 massive grantz we scored this year 450k and 560k plus 70k in donations from boeing :O the one 3d printer is a monster Fortus 400mc http://www.stratasys.com/3d-printers/production-series/fortus-400mc but yea we also got this who system there not installed yet but will be soon LPKF Protolaser System S http://www.lpkfusa.com/protomat/pl_s.htm LPKF Protomat S103 http://www.lpkf.com/products/rapid-pcb-prototyping/circuit-board-plotter/protomat-s103.htm ProtoPlace S http://www.lpkfusa.com/smtassembly/protoplace.htm LPKF ProtoFlow http://www.lpkfusa.com/smtassembly/protoflow.htm and yes he does need some sharks with lazers!!!! cause yea sharks with lazers are more epic!!!!! then 3d printers and lazer cuters On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus < sales at elecplus.com> wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Guy Sotomayor > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 2:48 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Pics of new shop > > Hi, > > Here's a link to the pictures of my new shop: > http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html > > TTFN - Guy > > I am jealous; your shop is bigger than my house! > Looks like a really cool place to have a workshop. > > Cindy > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6264 - Release Date: 04/22/13 > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 16:28:46 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:28:46 -0500 Subject: Pics of new shop In-Reply-To: References: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> <057201ce4064$7d44ef20$77cecd60$@com> Message-ID: nice!! On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Apr 23, 2013, at 1:52 PM, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" < > sales at elecplus.com> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto: > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > > On Behalf Of Guy Sotomayor > > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 2:48 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Pics of new shop > > > > Hi, > > > > Here's a link to the pictures of my new shop: > > http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > I am jealous; your shop is bigger than my house! > > Looks like a really cool place to have a workshop. > > > > ;-) > > Yea, the house is gorgeous too. The main level is 2466 sq ft. > The downstairs (house is built into the side of a hill) is the > 2-1/2 car garage, laundry room, 900 sq ft "bonus" room > and a 625 "equipment room" that contains the HVAC and > hot water heater (ie what other houses would call a basement). > > Oh, and all the ceilings are 10' throughout. > > TTFN - Guy > > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Apr 23 16:32:40 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:32:40 -0700 Subject: Pics of new shop In-Reply-To: References: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Apr 23, 2013, at 2:19 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Tue, 23 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Here's a link to the pictures of my new shop: >> http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html > > If only my shop were that clean :) > > Was the former owner a cabinetmaker or woodworker? Previous owner was a custom house builder (he built the house and shop for himself). He decided to retire and was getting rid of everything...these pics are from last weekend when I went in to start filling it up. ;-) There was much more stuff in there when we looked at the house. Actually the shop is older than the house. He built that before he was able to get permits for septic and such for the main house. TTFN - Guy From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 23 16:52:30 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:52:30 -0400 Subject: KA655 SLU without proper bulkhead In-Reply-To: <3C0483D3-C4E0-4453-AF57-4D33FD860EBA@gmail.com> References: <535EDCE2-672F-4153-B1B0-7FF8F8C6E53E@gmail.com> <201304231415.KAA26731@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3C0483D3-C4E0-4453-AF57-4D33FD860EBA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5177029E.8000501@verizon.net> On 04/23/2013 10:43 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 23, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Mouse wrote: > >>> I recently acquired a KA655-AA (MicroVAX 3800/3900 CPU) and some >>> appropriate RAM, and I'm having trouble grokking the console SLU >>> output. [...] if I'm running it without a bulkhead attached at all, >>> the serial speed should be 300 baud. When my terminal is running at >>> 300, 8 bit, no parity, 1 stop bit, I get some garbage on screen but >>> not much more. >> Have you tried the other speeds the KA630 documentation mentions? It >> strikes me as possible, at least, that the KA630 interprets those >> signals differently from the KA655. >> >> The other possibility that comes to mind is that its serial output >> isn't a normal single-ended RS232, but a differential pair (my memory >> calls that RS432, but I don't know how accurate that is) and you've got >> the wrong output pin - inverting the data line produces weeeeird data >> corruption. (I know because I once made that mistake myself and was >> thoroughly baffled for quite a while until I realized what was up.) > Actually, it turned out that the problem was that I was plugging > the serial adaptor in upside down (it wasn't keyed and the cable > was a rainbow ribbon that did not have brown on pin 1, so oops). > I would have figured that out sooner if I hadn't still been > seeing data on the line; apparently the Tx makes enough noise on > the Rx pins (which are what you plug into if it's upside down) > to trigger valid-looking bits on the receiving UART. > > The standard DEC pinout has single-ended Tx and differential Rx, > so I was pretty sure I wasn't receiving backwards. Of course, > now I'm receiving at 300 baud, which isn't a LOT better. :-) > > So now I'm able to boot the VMS install CD, but it hangs after > identifying the devices and asking if they're all there. I'm > still trying to figure out what the deal is with that, though > I suspect it may have something to do with the DLV11J (4x UART) > I have in there, because it seems to identify that as 8 TU58s. > I'll try installing without that plugged in. > > Just in case it rings a bell with anyone here, though, if I'm > seeing a hang after this, is there anything in particular I > should do? I'm booting a SCSI CD drive off a CQD-220, which > seems to work OK for booting, at least. Check your bus grant sequence and also the assigned addresses of the IO cards (all of them). I 'll bet you have more than a few on the same address or incorrect ones. There is a specific set that is best to use and also the grant chain will have the system see devices and hang using them (or try to). Allison > > ---- > > > If any device does not show up, please take action now to make it > available. > > > Available device DUA0: device type RA81 > Available device DUA1: device type RA82 > Available device DUA2: device type RRD40 > Available device MSA0: device type MW_TSV05 > Available device DDA0: device type TU58 > Available device DDA1: device type TU58 > Available device DDB0: device type TU58 > Available device DDB1: device type TU58 > Available device DDC0: device type TU58 > Available device DDC1: device type TU58 > Available device DDD0: device type TU58 > Available device DDD1: device type TU58 > > Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: y > > > > > - Dave > From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 23 17:05:32 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 22:05:32 +0000 Subject: Pics of new shop In-Reply-To: References: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D96817@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:10 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Pics of new shop > > On Tue, 23 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Here's a link to the pictures of my new shop: > > http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html > > > That looks like a really nice space Guy. Congrats! > Yes, both inside and out. Sweet! -- Ian From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 17:32:08 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 18:32:08 -0400 Subject: KA655 SLU without proper bulkhead In-Reply-To: <5177029E.8000501@verizon.net> References: <535EDCE2-672F-4153-B1B0-7FF8F8C6E53E@gmail.com> <201304231415.KAA26731@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3C0483D3-C4E0-4453-AF57-4D33FD860EBA@gmail.com> <5177029E.8000501@verizon.net> Message-ID: <225A0E19-DA25-41E4-877D-B86D83CEA187@gmail.com> On Apr 23, 2013, at 5:52 PM, allison wrote: >> Just in case it rings a bell with anyone here, though, if I'm >> seeing a hang after this, is there anything in particular I >> should do? I'm booting a SCSI CD drive off a CQD-220, which >> seems to work OK for booting, at least. > > Check your bus grant sequence and also the assigned addresses > of the IO cards (all of them). Those are fine; this is actually the exact same setup as my 11/23 with the CPU and RAM swapped out (it's an H9276 backplane, so it should be fine with that arrangement). That machine was just fine. For the record, the setup is: KA655 MS650-BA DELQA CQD-220 I used to have a DLV11J in there as well (configured for CSR/INT 1776500/300) in between the DELQA and the CQD-220, but I removed that for now in case the TU58 driver was interfering (probably not, since it didn't solve the problem). I also took out the TSV05, since the tape drive it goes to isn't behaving right now anyway. If it were a grant chain continuity problem, I wouldn't expect the SCSI card to even be able to boot, since it's MSCP-based (unless the early MSCP boot stuff doesn't require an interrupt, which would surprise me). > I 'll bet you have more than a few on the same address or incorrect ones. > There is a specific set that is best to use and also the grant chain will > have the system see devices and hang using them (or try to). There are definitely no address conflicts unless the KA655 is adding something I'm not aware of (the DLV11J is NOT set to provide the console SLU address, if that even matters, but it is also not currently installed). My guess is that it's just a matter of the CQD-220 not playing nicely with my CD-ROM drive, though I'm a bit puzzled as to why it boots the initial part and barfs at trying to start BACKUP. Some extra verbosity would be handy there; I suppose if I get really desperate, I could just try halting and disassembling and see where it's waiting. - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 23 17:46:38 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 16:46:38 -0600 Subject: old computer museum in WI In-Reply-To: <022b01ce402d$30a133e0$91e39ba0$@com> References: <022b01ce402d$30a133e0$91e39ba0$@com> Message-ID: If anyone in Wisconsin visits this guy, it would be nice to hear exactly what kinds of things he has that cctalk folks would find interesting. It's always hard when people say "I have everything, just call me". 99% of the time I respond with specific interests and they don't have anything in those categories. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 18:22:52 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 19:22:52 -0400 Subject: CMD CQD-220 ROM fixes In-Reply-To: References: <3A825CF4-DBE4-4C06-AC0F-FFB4279B1746@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18659038-6EA6-445C-A4E1-2E20B2F96D50@gmail.com> On Apr 23, 2013, at 4:40 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 1:09 PM, David Riley wrote: >> >> Are the firmware images still available somewhere? I want to see >> if updated firmware will fix the hang problem I'm having booting >> the VMS 7.3 CD (it boots, but hangs while trying to start the >> standalone backup; this happens when my Pioneer CD drive is >> jumpered for 512 or 2048 byte blocks). I can't seem to find CMD's >> site anymore, though I could swear someone linked it around here >> not long ago. > > Oh, and BTW, I have never had any issues booting the VMS 7.3 CD on > KA630, KA650, KA655, and VAX 4000 CPUs from CMD CQD-220/TM with > Plextor SCSI CD-ROM drives. I doubt it is a CQD-220/TM firmware > issue, but you never know... Turns out it works if I turn sync mode off for the CDROM. It makes a certain amount of sense, I guess; it's a REALLY old external CD drive that came with a Mac LC 475, which was one of the '040 Macs right around the beginning of the CD era, so it's certainly possible that it's just a finicky old drive. There's nothing that leads me to believe it's anything more than a 1x, though it is at least tray-loading, so it's quite possible it just doesn't do sync transfers; at 150KB/s, why bother? - Dave From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Apr 23 18:29:01 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 23:29:01 +0000 Subject: Mark Crispin and PANDA In-Reply-To: <5154DB9A.30108@jwsss.com> References: <20130328204630.BC2DBA580F2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5154DB9A.30108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01187872DE@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jim Stephens Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 5:09 PM On 3/28/2013 2:16 PM, SPC wrote: >> Thanks, Dennis. I knew it, we spoke about it on the list. But... I didn't >> see any post about the PANDA distribution. > It looks like there may be a mirror here > http://panda.trailing-edge.com/ > thanks to archive.org for that bit, as well as Tim Shoppa for capturing > it (I think he's trailing edge, or whoever did it) Tim's archive is authoritative for what Mark had released. He was working on improvements in his spare time when he got sick. I've made arrangements with Mark's widow to attempt to recover his work. Now that my time is somewhat freed up, I can follow up on that. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 19:10:53 2013 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (Bill Layer) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 19:10:53 -0500 Subject: old computer museum in WI In-Reply-To: References: <022b01ce402d$30a133e0$91e39ba0$@com> Message-ID: Howdy folks, first (re-)post since... 2000?? Hope to see at least a couple of familiar faces around here.. So sorry to hear that Don M. passed away, almost a decade ago at this point. He was so helpful to me when dealing with the Epson CP/M machines I came across. Anyhow, I'm only about an hour from Eau Claire. Might be able to convince a couple locals to split the gas money and take a drive out. I'm not much into Apples or rotary phones, so I'd definitely give a call before organizing a voyage. On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Richard wrote: > If anyone in Wisconsin visits this guy, it would be nice to hear > exactly what kinds of things he has that cctalk folks would find > interesting. > > It's always hard when people say "I have everything, just call me". > 99% of the time I respond with specific interests and they don't have > anything in those categories. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < > http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Apr 23 19:17:42 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 00:17:42 +0000 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatly exaggerated In-Reply-To: <201304081144.r38BiAHA013960@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304081144.r38BiAHA013960@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118788FF4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> And it comes 'round on the guitar again. See the archives from February 2010 (excerpt posted below). -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steve Lafferty Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 4:44 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatly exaggerated >Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:16:33 -0700 (PDT) >From: Fred Cisin >Ken Olsen (DEC) once said that there was only need for half a dozen. So >long as there is still need for half a dozen, then it ain't dead! --- It sounds like you are referring to the quote which is attributed to Howard Aiken (NOT Ken Olsen): "Only six electronic digital computers would be required to satisfy the computing needs of the entire United States." (Aiken was also known for such prescient positions as being religiously opposed to storing instructions and data in the same memory space.) Steve L. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 2:11 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: "only 5 computers" [was RE: The value of assembler language programmers] On 10 Feb 2010 at 13:54, Rich Alderson wrote: > The truth, as is so often the case, is more complex than that. > According to the source cited above, what Watson reported to the 1953 > stockholder's meeting was that their expectation with regard to sales > of the 701, when they visited 20 potential customers, was for 5 > orders. Instead, they got 18. And taken in its context (even allowing for the differing quote in his autobiography), is a very different kettle of fish. Expectations for 5 orders for a new "paper tiger" machine on a single sales junket was quite optimistic for the time. "The IBM Archives Frequently Asked Questions asks if he said in the 1950s that he foresaw a market potential for only five electronic computers. The document says no, but quotes his son and then IBM President Thomas J. Watson, Jr., at the annual IBM stockholders meeting, April 28, 1953, as speaking about the IBM 701 Electronic Data Processing Machine, which it identifies as "the company's first production computer designed for scientific calculations". He said that "IBM had developed a paper plan for such a machine and took this paper plan across the country to some 20 concerns that we thought could use such a machine. I would like to tell you that the machine rents for between $12,000 and $18,000 a month, so it was not the type of thing that could be sold from place to place. But, as a result of our trip, on which we expected to get orders for five machines, we came home with orders for 18." Watson, Jr., later gave a slightly different version of the story in his autobiography, where he said the initial market sampling indicated 11 firm takers and 10 more prospective orders." --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 23 21:02:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 22:02:13 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Pics of new shop In-Reply-To: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> References: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <51773D25.8080601@neurotica.com> On 04/23/2013 03:47 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Here's a link to the pictures of my new shop: > http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html That looks fantastic! Congratulations! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Tue Apr 23 21:11:47 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 02:11:47 -0000 Subject: [cctalk] Pics of new shop References: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> <51773D25.8080601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/23/2013 03:47 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Here's a link to the pictures of my new shop: >> http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html > It reminds me of the fact I need to actually setup a proper workspace... > That looks fantastic! Congratulations! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 23 21:34:23 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 22:34:23 -0400 Subject: Pics of new shop In-Reply-To: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> References: <0CF60A02-9360-477F-91BA-A1000AB3858C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Guy Sotomayor wrote: >Hi, > >Here's a link to the pictures of my new shop: >http://www.shiresoft.com/new-shop/Shiresoft/New_Shop.html > >TTFN - Guy Sweeeeeet........ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 23 22:10:49 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 22:10:49 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <911C73B90051@dunfield.com> References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com> <911C73B90051@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <51774D39.2000303@jbrain.com> On 7/2/2009 12:04 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Hmm, the PCs with the 5.25" drives, they not so present around here... :-) > Hmm... but you do have a PC I assume.... and 2 5.25" drives sitting there in > the Kaypro --- there must be a way to do it, Hmm.... > > I know this resurrects a truly ancient thread, but I am steadily working through my Kaypro machines and I have an update that is relevant to this ancient response. First off, Gene, thanks for the disks, and I have not forgotten about you and our offline conversation. It's on my list. To recap: Kapyro 1, working drives, boots. Many thanks for Gene and Mike Loewen for boot disks and app disks. Kaypro 4. A drive does not work, B marginally works. I got it to boot! 4-84: Neither TM100 works, and A must have a short as no voltage when connected. With disconnected, and B set up as A, no boot. 10: I *think* the drive works, as the universal Kaypro 1 boot disk continues to cycle from the 1.93 boot screen to a cursor in the top left corner, and back. So, I dug out the PC and attached 2 1.2MB 5.25" floppies and got Dave's utils over there, along with a K10 CPM 2.2F boot disk img (in td0 format). Converted to IMD format. That was the end of my successes. testfdc sees the drive, but only 300kB DD seems to work. I tried making an image with the 1.2MB drive, but every sector said write error: no data, so I gave up. Then, I took a working Kaypro drive and put it in the PC, and tried testfdc. I overrode it as 360kb 5.25 drive, and testfdc finds the drive, but it immediately gives up stating "!No FDC Interrupt" So, if there is "a way to do it...", it continues to elude me. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 22:40:13 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 23:40:13 -0400 Subject: CMD CQD-220 ROM fixes In-Reply-To: <18659038-6EA6-445C-A4E1-2E20B2F96D50@gmail.com> References: <3A825CF4-DBE4-4C06-AC0F-FFB4279B1746@gmail.com> <18659038-6EA6-445C-A4E1-2E20B2F96D50@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2B480281-439A-4489-AA97-9AA81F7EE7FA@gmail.com> On Apr 23, 2013, at 7:22 PM, David Riley wrote: > Turns out it works if I turn sync mode off for the CDROM. It > makes a certain amount of sense, I guess; it's a REALLY old > external CD drive that came with a Mac LC 475, which was one > of the '040 Macs right around the beginning of the CD era, so > it's certainly possible that it's just a finicky old drive. > There's nothing that leads me to believe it's anything more > than a 1x, though it is at least tray-loading, so it's quite > possible it just doesn't do sync transfers; at 150KB/s, why > bother? Nope, nevermind, that didn't fix it. It got me to the BACKUP prompt... once. Haven't managed to duplicate it. I'm still running the A7A revision of the firmware, so I should try with both A8 and the B2A/B3 revisions that are available. I'm particularly curious to see if they fixed the zero disks/zero tapes bug I found in the B revs. In any case, it seems like there's some bug related to CD drives here that's somewhat time-dependent. - Dave From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Apr 23 22:55:09 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 22:55:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <51774D39.2000303@jbrain.com> References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com> <911C73B90051@dunfield.com> <51774D39.2000303@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Apr 2013, Jim Brain wrote: > Kapyro 1, working drives, boots. Many thanks for Gene and Mike Loewen for > boot disks and app disks. > Kaypro 4. A drive does not work, B marginally works. I got it to boot! > 4-84: Neither TM100 works, and A must have a short as no voltage when > connected. With disconnected, and B set up as A, no boot. > 10: I *think* the drive works, as the universal Kaypro 1 boot disk continues > to cycle from the 1.93 boot screen to a cursor in the top left corner, and > back. > > So, I dug out the PC and attached 2 1.2MB 5.25" floppies and got Dave's utils > over there, along with a K10 CPM 2.2F boot disk img (in td0 format). > Converted to IMD format. > > That was the end of my successes. > > testfdc sees the drive, but only 300kB DD seems to work. I tried making an > image with the 1.2MB drive, but every sector said write error: no data, so I > gave up. > Then, I took a working Kaypro drive and put it in the PC, and tried testfdc. > I overrode it as 360kb 5.25 drive, and testfdc finds the drive, but it > immediately gives up stating "!No FDC Interrupt" > > So, if there is "a way to do it...", it continues to elude me. While I'm not a Kaypro expert, I seem to remember that the Kaypro uses a true Shugart interface for the floppy drives, so you aren't going to be able to connect a Shugart type floppy drive directly to a PC-compatible floppy interface without moving some signals around on the cable. I ran into this last year while troubleshooting another type of Shugart interface floppy drive, which I was originally expecting to be PC-compatible. Is it even possible to write reliable 360K disk using a 1.2MB drive? It had been ages since I worked with some of these drives since a lot of my stuff is packed away, but I seem to remember that I always had to use a 360K drive when /writing/ 360K disks, while I could still read 360K disks in a 1.2MB drive just fine. (The tracks written by a 1.2MB drive are narrower than those written by a 360K drive?) From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Apr 23 23:40:05 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 16:40:05 +1200 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com> <911C73B90051@dunfield.com> <51774D39.2000303@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Yes, it's possible to write a 360k disk in a 1.2MB drive. See http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2010-02-18-writing-cpm-from-1.2mb-disks.htm Terry (Tez) On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Tue, 23 Apr 2013, Jim Brain wrote: > > Kapyro 1, working drives, boots. Many thanks for Gene and Mike Loewen >> for boot disks and app disks. >> Kaypro 4. A drive does not work, B marginally works. I got it to boot! >> 4-84: Neither TM100 works, and A must have a short as no voltage when >> connected. With disconnected, and B set up as A, no boot. >> 10: I *think* the drive works, as the universal Kaypro 1 boot disk >> continues to cycle from the 1.93 boot screen to a cursor in the top left >> corner, and back. >> >> So, I dug out the PC and attached 2 1.2MB 5.25" floppies and got Dave's >> utils over there, along with a K10 CPM 2.2F boot disk img (in td0 format). >> Converted to IMD format. >> >> That was the end of my successes. >> >> testfdc sees the drive, but only 300kB DD seems to work. I tried making >> an image with the 1.2MB drive, but every sector said write error: no data, >> so I gave up. >> Then, I took a working Kaypro drive and put it in the PC, and tried >> testfdc. I overrode it as 360kb 5.25 drive, and testfdc finds the drive, >> but it immediately gives up stating "!No FDC Interrupt" >> >> So, if there is "a way to do it...", it continues to elude me. >> > > While I'm not a Kaypro expert, I seem to remember that the Kaypro uses a > true Shugart interface for the floppy drives, so you aren't going to be > able to connect a Shugart type floppy drive directly to a PC-compatible > floppy interface without moving some signals around on the cable. I ran > into this last year while troubleshooting another type of Shugart interface > floppy drive, which I was originally expecting to be PC-compatible. > > Is it even possible to write reliable 360K disk using a 1.2MB drive? It > had been ages since I worked with some of these drives since a lot of my > stuff is packed away, but I seem to remember that I always had to use a > 360K drive when /writing/ 360K disks, while I could still read 360K disks > in a 1.2MB drive just fine. (The tracks written by a 1.2MB drive are > narrower than those written by a 360K drive?) > From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Apr 24 00:22:21 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 00:22:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com> <911C73B90051@dunfield.com> <51774D39.2000303@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: > On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Is it even possible to write reliable 360K disk using a 1.2MB drive? It >> had been ages since I worked with some of these drives since a lot of my >> stuff is packed away, but I seem to remember that I always had to use a >> 360K drive when /writing/ 360K disks, while I could still read 360K disks >> in a 1.2MB drive just fine. (The tracks written by a 1.2MB drive are >> narrower than those written by a 360K drive?) > > Yes, it's possible to write a 360k disk in a 1.2MB drive. See > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2010-02-18-writing-cpm-from-1.2mb-disks.htm Is this reliable in the long-term though? If you then read/write a 360K disk in a true 360K drive that was written to in a 1.2MB drive, won't you have odd issues with the track widths? What I seem to remember from years ago was a 1.2MB drive could not reliably overwrite data on a 360K disk because the tracks written by a 1.2MB drive were narrower, so when you would then work with that disk in a 360K drive, the 360K drive would pick up data from the original wider 360K drive track and the narrower 1.2MB drive track. Maybe this would work ok to a limited degree with a 360K floppy that had been bulk-erased prior to writing in a 1.2MB drive, which was then never written to again in a 1.2MB drive after being written to in a 360K drive? From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 24 00:25:44 2013 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:25:44 +0200 Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? In-Reply-To: <410895506-1366721588-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-774632416-@ b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <410895506-1366721588-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-774632416-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: > Stupid question but do those films (8" or 12") have sound on them like a > track or are they purely video slides in a row? (I've really never seen > them up close so hollywood is my only incorrect knowledge of how it > looks). > > I have one 8mm movie (the original starwars movie) with a single audio track next to the perforations. Running time 15 to 20 minutes if I remember correctly. Never had the opprtunity to hear the sound, as we did not have a sound capable projector. -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 24 00:57:50 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 22:57:50 -0700 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com> <911C73B90051@dunfield.com> <51774D39.2000303@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5177745E.9090602@sydex.com> On 04/23/2013 10:22 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > > Is this reliable in the long-term though? If you then read/write a 360K > disk in a true 360K drive that was written to in a 1.2MB drive, won't > you have odd issues with the track widths? What I seem to remember from > years ago was a 1.2MB drive could not reliably overwrite data on a 360K > disk because the tracks written by a 1.2MB drive were narrower, so when > you would then work with that disk in a 360K drive, the 360K drive would > pick up data from the original wider 360K drive track and the narrower > 1.2MB drive track. Maybe this would work ok to a limited degree with a > 360K floppy that had been bulk-erased prior to writing in a 1.2MB drive, > which was then never written to again in a 1.2MB drive after being > written to in a 360K drive? Yes, it's reliable. I've been doing it for years and have my VHS bulk eraser to prove it. All the narrower track affects (on properly aligned drives) is the S/N ratio. But in any case, it's no worse than any other 96 tpi drive. Note that 100 tpi drives are almost as old as 48 tpi ones. --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Wed Apr 24 01:11:31 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 01:11:31 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com> <911C73B90051@dunfield.com> <51774D39.2000303@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <51777793.7050801@jbrain.com> On 4/24/2013 12:22 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 24 Apr 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Tothwolf >> wrote: >> >>> Is it even possible to write reliable 360K disk using a 1.2MB drive? It >>> had been ages since I worked with some of these drives since a lot >>> of my >>> stuff is packed away, but I seem to remember that I always had to use a >>> 360K drive when /writing/ 360K disks, while I could still read 360K >>> disks >>> in a 1.2MB drive just fine. (The tracks written by a 1.2MB drive are >>> narrower than those written by a 360K drive?) >> >> Yes, it's possible to write a 360k disk in a 1.2MB drive. See >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2010-02-18-writing-cpm-from-1.2mb-disks.htm > > Is this reliable in the long-term though? At this point, I wasn't so much worried about long term usage. If I can boot the unit with the disk, I'd load some utility and create an image on the unit itself. > If you then read/write a 360K disk in a true 360K drive that was > written to in a 1.2MB drive, won't you have odd issues with the track > widths? What I seem to remember from years ago was a 1.2MB drive could > not reliably overwrite data on a 360K disk because the tracks written > by a 1.2MB drive were narrower, so when you would then work with that > disk in a 360K drive, the 360K drive would pick up data from the > original wider 360K drive track and the narrower 1.2MB drive track. > Maybe this would work ok to a limited degree with a 360K floppy that > had been bulk-erased prior to writing in a 1.2MB drive, which was then > never written to again in a 1.2MB drive after being written to in a > 360K drive? I am using truly blank diskettes, and I'm not intending to write to the disks after creation. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Apr 24 01:33:32 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 08:33:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? Message-ID: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Stupid question but do those films (8" or 12") have sound on them > > I am puzzled by your reference to 8" and 12" here.... Probably referring to the reel size, which is of minor importance. > like a track or are they purely video slides in a row? (I've really > never seen them up close so hollywood is my only incorrect knowledge of > how it looks). > AFIAK 16mm cine film could have either an optical soundtrack or a > magnetic one. In the former case, the ausio signal modulated a light > source which produced a variable width or density track on the film. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_soundtrack has an example of a 16mm film with variable width/area sound track. I haven't been able to quickly find a reference picture for the variable density (sometimes called "Western Electric") system, but it consists of density gradients along the sound track (think "analogue bar code"). Magnetic sound track gives itself away as a strip of brownish color (like audio cassette tape) that is laminated onto the film along one edge. Sometimes there is a second "balance" strip along the other edge so the film will spool up more evenly. > After processing this was read using a lamp and photocell, the signal > from the latter was the original audio. Or a magnetic soundtrack, an > iron oxide 'stripe' down the film which works like a tape recorder. All three systems were available for 16mm film, my Siemens System 2000 projector would be capable of playing them all back. There is a switch at the amplifier (in the projector base) to select between optical and magnetic audio and a knob on the optical reading head to select width or density modulation. > Super-8 8mm film could have a magnetic soundtrack (I have never heard of > opticla sound on such films). I have also never heard of any soundtrack > on standard 8 ('double run 8(') or single-8 film. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_8_film#Sound has the following: "Super 8mm was also specified with an optical sound track. This occupied the same location as the magnetic track. Picture to sound separation in this format was just 16 frames. Projectors and cameras obviously could not record sound in this system, but optical sound package movies became briefly popular, particularly in Europe (mainly because they were cheaper to produce - though the projectors cost more). Although the optical sound should have been inferior in quality to magnetic sound (running at 3.6 inches per second for 24 frames per second), in practice it was often much better, largely because packaged movie magnetic sound was often poorly recorded." No mention of audio tracks in any form in the Regular-8 article however. Arno From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 24 07:25:07 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:25:07 -0500 Subject: old computer museum in WI In-Reply-To: References: <022b01ce402d$30a133e0$91e39ba0$@com> Message-ID: <201304241225.r3OCPkjK097919@mx1.ezwind.net> At 05:46 PM 4/23/2013, you wrote: >If anyone in Wisconsin visits this guy, it would be nice to hear >exactly what kinds of things he has that cctalk folks would find >interesting. Their web site is at http://www.firstchoicerecycling.com . Wisconsin has an "E-Cycling" program that no longer allows electronics in landfills, so a number of recycling places like this have sprung up to help county governments and businesses comply with the law. Maybe the slideshow there can give you an idea of what kind of place it is. (E.g., the barn-sized tangled pile of rotary phones.) The street address points to a residential area, so the warehouse must be somewhere else. I'm in Wisconsin, too, but Eau Claire is three hours from here. This recycling place is not far from appointment-only Chippewa Falls Museum of Industry and Technology - a Cray museum. http://www.cfmit.org/ (Lawrence Lemay posted a review on this list in 2005.) I tried to visit a few years ago when I was in the area, but I think they never called me back. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 24 07:23:20 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:23:20 -0500 Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? In-Reply-To: <410895506-1366721588-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim. net-774632416-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <410895506-1366721588-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-774632416-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <201304241225.r3OCPm6n097921@mx1.ezwind.net> At 07:53 AM 4/23/2013, you wrote: >Stupid question but do those films (8" or 12") have sound on them like a track or are they purely video slides in a row? (I've really never seen them up close so hollywood is my only incorrect knowledge of how it looks). Here's a close-up that shows the newer digital methods of putting audio on film, too. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:35mm_film_audio_macro.jpg - John From roe at liveblockauctions.com Tue Apr 23 08:57:42 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 07:57:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: Looking for... In-Reply-To: <1562024916-1366719219-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-844865609-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1562024916-1366719219-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-844865609-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <5D31B4BB-50DA-426C-8E5B-92E7971ECA38@liveblockauctions.com> On Apr 23, 2013, at 7:21 AM, "Sam O'nella" wrote: > I haven't seen them on this list but know that the stuff they're selling is Sellam's and technically part of a legal action case. Got it, thanks. I won't deal with them. I've only been active on this list for a few months, never run into his issue before. > -----Original Message----- > From: Roe Peterson > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 18:03:14 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Looking for... > > Anybody out there eBay tvrsales? I'd buy the disk cleaner immediately and cover shipping, but you don't seem to deal with Canadians... > From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Tue Apr 23 09:43:06 2013 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:43:06 -0600 Subject: DG Desktop Generation Manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51769DFA.7050205@Wild-Hare.com> G'day Mark - I will respond off-list... Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com On 4/23/2013 7:57 AM, Mark Darvill wrote: > > Does anyone have any Data General Desktop Generation manuals scanned that they could send me? I am particularly looking for "Desktop Generation Model 20-30 Technical Reference" p/n 014-000767-01 but any other associated DG manuals would be grateful recieved. > > Also does anyone still have a 16-bit AOS distro, ideally floppy based? > > I am rebuilding a DG20 and would prefer to install AOS over RDOS. > > Thanks, Mark > From tommie at fox.se Tue Apr 23 10:44:23 2013 From: tommie at fox.se (Tommie Mademark) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:44:23 +0200 Subject: DG Desktop Generation Manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A791DCA605FE468794FC2AE63FA2041EFC827D09@mail.fox.se> Signature emlmth1 on eBay.com has a set of 5.25 inch diskettes with AOS install for sale. The floppies are currently not listed but he had them listed a few months back for me, but I was looking for AOS/VS on diskettes, not AOS. Bruce Ray (bruce at Wild-Hare.com) might have the "Desktop Generation Model 20-30 Technical Reference" manual. Tommie Mademark My Data General blog http://DataGeneral.org/ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Darvill Sent: den 23 april 2013 15:57 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: DG Desktop Generation Manuals Does anyone have any Data General Desktop Generation manuals scanned that they could send me? I am particularly looking for "Desktop Generation Model 20-30 Technical Reference" p/n 014-000767-01 but any other associated DG manuals would be grateful recieved. Also does anyone still have a 16-bit AOS distro, ideally floppy based? I am rebuilding a DG20 and would prefer to install AOS over RDOS. Thanks, Mark From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Wed Apr 24 08:33:39 2013 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 09:33:39 -0400 Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? Message-ID: <0b864d$bejd94@fipsb03.cogeco.net> > > > Super-8 8mm film could have a magnetic soundtrack (I have never heard of > > opticla sound on such films). I have also never heard of any soundtrack > > on standard 8 ('double run 8(') or single-8 film. > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_8_film#Sound has the following: >"Super 8mm was also specified with an optical sound track. This occupied >the same location as the magnetic track. Picture to sound separation in >this format was just 16 frames. Projectors and cameras obviously could >not record sound in this system, but optical sound package movies became >briefly popular, particularly in Europe (mainly because they were cheaper >to produce - though the projectors cost more). Although the optical sound >should have been inferior in quality to magnetic sound (running at 3.6 >inches per second for 24 frames per second), in practice it was often much >better, largely because packaged movie magnetic sound was often poorly >recorded." > >No mention of audio tracks in any form in the Regular-8 article however. > >Arno While there was never a standard for sound on regular 8mm film,there were various attempts at it. I was recently given a Eumig P8M Imperial projector which has a sound deck on the back on which a tape from a 3 3/4 ips reel to reel recorder can be threaded to maintain "sync" with the film and start and stop the projector. The problem is that every time a quarter inch tape is run it stretches a bit and the sync doesn't last. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 24 09:03:40 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 07:03:40 -0700 Subject: old computer museum in WI In-Reply-To: <201304241225.r3OCPkjK097919@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <022b01ce402d$30a133e0$91e39ba0$@com> <201304241225.r3OCPkjK097919@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5177E63C.2030703@bitsavers.org> On 4/24/13 5:25 AM, John Foust wrote: > This recycling place is not far from appointment-only Chippewa Falls > Museum of Industry and Technology - a Cray museum. http://www.cfmit.org/ > (Lawrence Lemay posted a review on this list in 2005.) I tried to visit > a few years ago when I was in the area, but I think they never called me back. > I think they've closed or downsized. CHM got back the CDC 1604 that was on loan to them in Feb, 2011. From spedraja at ono.com Wed Apr 24 11:30:03 2013 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 18:30:03 +0200 Subject: Mark Crispin and PANDA In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01187872DE@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20130328204630.BC2DBA580F2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5154DB9A.30108@jwsss.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01187872DE@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Rich. SPc. 2013/4/24 Rich Alderson > From: Jim Stephens > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 5:09 PM > > On 3/28/2013 2:16 PM, SPC wrote: > > >> Thanks, Dennis. I knew it, we spoke about it on the list. But... I > didn't > >> see any post about the PANDA distribution. > > > It looks like there may be a mirror here > > > http://panda.trailing-edge.com/ > > > thanks to archive.org for that bit, as well as Tim Shoppa for capturing > > it (I think he's trailing edge, or whoever did it) > > Tim's archive is authoritative for what Mark had released. He was working > on improvements in his spare time when he got sick. > > I've made arrangements with Mark's widow to attempt to recover his work. > Now that my time is somewhat freed up, I can follow up on that. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From seefriek at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 13:36:30 2013 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:36:30 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? Message-ID: As it happens, I have one of these with manual and VMS drivers/libraries. Nothing currently to put it in, though. KJ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 24 13:54:40 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 12:54:40 -0600 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Ken Seefried writes: > As it happens, I have one of these with manual and VMS drivers/libraries. > Nothing currently to put it in, though. What functionality is covered by the drivers/libraries? Is it for image processing or FFTs or ...? If it's the image processing thangy, I wonder if it would work in my VAXserver 4000/300? IIRC, that is Qbus and mine is running VMS. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 24 13:39:26 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 19:39:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8mm Movie to Digital Service? In-Reply-To: from "Arno Kletzander" at Apr 24, 13 08:33:32 am Message-ID: > > like a track or are they purely video slides in a row? (I've really > > never seen them up close so hollywood is my only incorrect knowledge of > > how it looks). > > > AFIAK 16mm cine film could have either an optical soundtrack or a > > magnetic one. In the former case, the ausio signal modulated a light > > source which produced a variable width or density track on the film. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_soundtrack > has an example of a 16mm film with variable width/area sound track. > I haven't been able to quickly find a reference picture for the variable > density (sometimes called "Western Electric") system, but it consists > of density gradients along the sound track (think "analogue bar code"). I found a lovely little book in a chartiy shop last week. Entitled 'Applications of Photoelectric Cells', it dates from the 1930s. One of the applications described is optical film sounttracks, although I don't think it describes anything smalelr than 16mm. FWIW, said book also covers television, both mechancially-scanned and the iconoscope tube (which is regarded as a 'super photocell' :-)) > Magnetic sound track gives itself away as a strip of brownish color (like > audio cassette tape) that is laminated onto the film along one edge. > Sometimes there is a second "balance" strip along the other edge so the > film will spool up more evenly. Sure. It is convnetional audio magnetic recording. [...] > > > Super-8 8mm film could have a magnetic soundtrack (I have never heard of > > opticla sound on such films). I have also never heard of any soundtrack > > on standard 8 ('double run 8(') or single-8 film. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_8_film#Sound has the following: > "Super 8mm was also specified with an optical sound track. This occupied > the same location as the magnetic track. Picture to sound separation in > this format was just 16 frames. Projectors and cameras obviously could I don't see why a camera couldn't record said format using a suitable internal light source, etc... > not record sound in this system, but optical sound package movies became > briefly popular, particularly in Europe (mainly because they were cheaper > to produce - though the projectors cost more). Although the optical sound > should have been inferior in quality to magnetic sound (running at 3.6 > inches per second for 24 frames per second), in practice it was often much > better, largely because packaged movie magnetic sound was often poorly > recorded." Interesting. I'd neer come across it. My 8mm projector is, alas, silent-only... > > No mention of audio tracks in any form in the Regular-8 article however. I've enver come across it, and my 'Manual of Sub-Stnadard Cinematography' is too old to cover sound at all ('sub standard' menaing smaller than standard, the latter bneing 35mm of course). I do rememebr reading about companies who would 'stripe' a film -- that is put the magnetic track on a processed film so that sould could be recorded on it. I cna't rememebr if this was ever done on standard-8 though. -tony From arrowrunner at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 14:04:27 2013 From: arrowrunner at gmail.com (Beau Walker) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 15:04:27 -0400 Subject: Northstar C5 Bus - Any interest or any details on what this is? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awesome, thanks guys. I'll take $10 for it if anyone here is interested before I list it on fleabay. On Sun, Apr 21, 2013 at 10:22 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Sun, 21 Apr 2013, Tothwolf wrote: > >> On Sun, 21 Apr 2013, Beau Walker wrote: >> >> A member from the vintage computer forum suggested that I post this here >>> before throwing it in the scrap pile. I'd much rather make a couple >>> dollars >>> or trade and see it go to someone that might use it or need it anyway. >>> >>> http://s253.photobucket.com/**user/arrow_runner/media/** >>> 20130408_175701_zps5d7ba3ad.**jpg.html >>> >>> http://s253.photobucket.com/**user/arrow_runner/media/** >>> 20130408_175710_zpsb4ffc377.**jpg.html >>> >> >> I'm going to have to agree with Andrew, I think this is probably from a >> Northstar Dimension. Those machines supported 12 hosts via CPU cards, so >> the number of slots also seems about right. The main host was an 80186 and >> each of the CPU cards had an 8088. If you don't find a taker here, someone >> on eBay may want it. >> > > Confirmed. This is indeed the backplane board for a Northstar Dimension. > The connector on the bottom connects to the main processor board. > > See the North Star DIMENSION Technical Manual available here: > http://maben.homeip.net/**static/S100/northstar/**Dimension/North%20Star%* > *20DIMENSION%20Technical%**20Manual%2003739B.pdf > > pp137-140 Power supply voltages > pp151-152 Bus PCB removal > -- Sent from My Hippopotamus From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Wed Apr 24 14:53:45 2013 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 11:53:45 -0800 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whoa! How detailed are the docs? Do they explain the communications protocol and register layout? What kind of media is the software on? CD? TK-50? Floppy? N0body > -----Original Message----- > From: seefriek at gmail.com > Sent: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:36:30 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? > > As it happens, I have one of these with manual and VMS drivers/libraries. > Nothing currently to put it in, though. > > KJ ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 17:19:49 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 18:19:49 -0400 Subject: CMD CQD-220 ROM fixes In-Reply-To: <2B480281-439A-4489-AA97-9AA81F7EE7FA@gmail.com> References: <3A825CF4-DBE4-4C06-AC0F-FFB4279B1746@gmail.com> <18659038-6EA6-445C-A4E1-2E20B2F96D50@gmail.com> <2B480281-439A-4489-AA97-9AA81F7EE7FA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8EB65B1A-6A56-4B67-A7C3-36CCB011AC17@gmail.com> On Apr 23, 2013, at 11:40 PM, David Riley wrote: > Nope, nevermind, that didn't fix it. It got me to the > BACKUP prompt... once. Haven't managed to duplicate it. > I'm still running the A7A revision of the firmware, so I > should try with both A8 and the B2A/B3 revisions that are > available. I'm particularly curious to see if they fixed > the zero disks/zero tapes bug I found in the B revs. In > any case, it seems like there's some bug related to CD > drives here that's somewhat time-dependent. Updating the firmware to the B3A2 revision seems to have done the trick. I'm now running through my second install (my CD is reporting fatally bad blocks, so it's a good thing I imaged it when I got it) and everything seems fairly happy aside from the disc errors. As far as I know, bumping to A8 might have fixed it, but given the relatively long and interactive process that testing several revisions would take, I thought I might go for the gold. For those wondering: B3A2 seems to work very nicely, and has vastly improved the online utility (the one reachable through either executable code or the serial port). It even seems to have added improved SCSI clustering support, if anyone was interested in that. And it even feels a bit snappier, though that's totally subjective and possibly all in my head. Thanks to Glen Slick for the link to the firmware! It was quite helpful. I haven't established whether there is still a bug related to zero disks/tapes, but I'm not in the mood to recover another bricked board just now; I'll check later. - Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 18:04:10 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 18:04:10 -0500 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <095F1FE8-B9F9-49C0-AF78-EA553CB81FAB@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> <1663FDEB-7A74-4FD7-9C6F-A6C685376945@gmail.com> <516B4168.30904@gmail.com> <095F1FE8-B9F9-49C0-AF78-EA553CB81FAB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517864EA.8030101@gmail.com> On 04/14/2013 09:23 PM, David Riley wrote: > If it turns out your logic board is OK, do consider trying to repair > your power supply Another update - things got busy and I only just had a chance to look at this again yesterday. Powering up via an ATX PSU produces a "bong" sound from the speaker, which I'm assuming means that that the system board is at least somewhat healthy (as I'd imagine that the tone is CPU-driven rather than some form of startup circuit). I seem to have absolutely no DA15 connectors in the junk box though, so I'll have to order one before I can test the video output (hmm, unless I can severely chop a DB25...) cheers Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 18:14:19 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 19:14:19 -0400 Subject: Mac Performa 6400/200VEE In-Reply-To: <517864EA.8030101@gmail.com> References: <516726C6.1020503@gmail.com> <5168523F.7020709@gmail.com> <1663FDEB-7A74-4FD7-9C6F-A6C685376945@gmail.com> <516B4168.30904@gmail.com> <095F1FE8-B9F9-49C0-AF78-EA553CB81FAB@gmail.com> <517864EA.8030101@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2013, at 7:04 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/14/2013 09:23 PM, David Riley wrote: >> If it turns out your logic board is OK, do consider trying to repair >> your power supply > > Another update - things got busy and I only just had a chance to look at this again yesterday. Powering up via an ATX PSU produces a "bong" sound from the speaker, which I'm assuming means that that the system board is at least somewhat healthy (as I'd imagine that the tone is CPU-driven rather than some form of startup circuit). If you hear that and nothing afterwards, it's a good sign; my recollection is that the "bad news" sound (which can come either before or up to a few seconds after the startup chime, depending on whether it fails during the memory test or not) is a rather noticeable car crash. > I seem to have absolutely no DA15 connectors in the junk box though, so I'll have to order one before I can test the video output (hmm, unless I can severely chop a DB25...) You *might* be able to, but it's a lot of trouble. They're usually pretty cheap and available, since they were used on everything from PC joystick connectors to AUI ports. Not as ubiquitous as DB25, for sure, but not nearly as hard to find as the Dx19 they used for the floppy port (which has a non- standard D-shell size without a real name, so Dx19 or D19 usually suffices). - Dave From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 18:25:57 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 16:25:57 -0700 Subject: CMD CQD-220 ROM fixes In-Reply-To: <8EB65B1A-6A56-4B67-A7C3-36CCB011AC17@gmail.com> References: <3A825CF4-DBE4-4C06-AC0F-FFB4279B1746@gmail.com> <18659038-6EA6-445C-A4E1-2E20B2F96D50@gmail.com> <2B480281-439A-4489-AA97-9AA81F7EE7FA@gmail.com> <8EB65B1A-6A56-4B67-A7C3-36CCB011AC17@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 3:19 PM, David Riley wrote: > > Updating the firmware to the B3A2 revision seems to have > done the trick. I'm now running through my second install > (my CD is reporting fatally bad blocks, so it's a good > thing I imaged it when I got it) and everything seems > fairly happy aside from the disc errors. > > As far as I know, bumping to A8 might have fixed it, but > given the relatively long and interactive process that > testing several revisions would take, I thought I might > go for the gold. For those wondering: B3A2 seems to work > very nicely, and has vastly improved the online utility > (the one reachable through either executable code or the > serial port). It even seems to have added improved SCSI > clustering support, if anyone was interested in that. > And it even feels a bit snappier, though that's totally > subjective and possibly all in my head. Thanks for the update. I never bothered to try out the updated firmware myself. I'll have to give it a try now. -Glen From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 24 18:32:59 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 17:32:59 -0600 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <1398558.04TL07KDH7@i5.sytse.net> References: <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> <516B2E29.2000204@jetnet.ab.ca> <1398558.04TL07KDH7@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/14/2013 5:19 PM, Sytse van Slooten wrote: > What you would need is an FPGA board, one or more SD cards (not SDHC or newer, > but the 'old' type), and optionally a little board with the enc424j600 chip > from Microchips on it to allow for a DEUNA-type ethernet controller. > > The de0 board from Terasic has the advantage that it already has an SD card > connector onboard. But, if you want to add the ethernet stuff, for instance by > connecting a PMODNIC100 from Digilent, you'd have to wire it - look at the > pictures on my site how that looks. I just ordered the de0 board from Terasic. What do recommend as good online reference for programing the FPGA? I still want to play around with some simple computers in the 18 to 24 bit width range and since I have to do it all from scratch, programing the FPGA for what bit length I like looks, to be easy. It will be interfacing the core logic to memory and I/O that I may need help with. > Hope that's a clear enough shopping list for you :-) > Ben. PS. I used CUPL at one time for ALTERA CPLD's and I like using it. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 18:58:37 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 19:58:37 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> <516B2E29.2000204@jetnet.ab.ca> <1398558.04TL07KDH7@i5.sytse.net> <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> On Apr 24, 2013, at 7:32 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/14/2013 5:19 PM, Sytse van Slooten wrote: > >> What you would need is an FPGA board, one or more SD cards (not SDHC or newer, >> but the 'old' type), and optionally a little board with the enc424j600 chip >> from Microchips on it to allow for a DEUNA-type ethernet controller. >> >> The de0 board from Terasic has the advantage that it already has an SD card >> connector onboard. But, if you want to add the ethernet stuff, for instance by >> connecting a PMODNIC100 from Digilent, you'd have to wire it - look at the >> pictures on my site how that looks. > > I just ordered the de0 board from Terasic. > What do recommend as good online reference for programing > the FPGA? I still want to play around with some simple > computers in the 18 to 24 bit width range and since > I have to do it all from scratch, programing the FPGA for > what bit length I like looks, to be easy. It will be interfacing > the core logic to memory and I/O that I may need help with. Well, "easy". Hardware description languages have a steep learning curve. If you're just starting out on them, it's probably helpful to remember that what you're doing is a lot more like describing a schematic in text (much like a SPICE netlist, though with some more "programmy" bits) than programming in a language like C. If you have some template code you're planning on working with, that's probably a good start (there are lots of CPU projects on opencores.org, as well as a lot of other cores for interfaces like SPI if you need them). This is a good reference for programming in Verilog that I used when I was learning (and still come across helpful sections when I'm Googling for usage details on the more obscure parts). It starts from a beginning level. http://www.asic-world.com/verilog/veritut.html This is a great quick-reference card to print out and stick to your wall. http://www.ece.uvic.ca/~fayez/courses/ceng465/vlogref.pdf For a Verilog simulator, I highly recommend Icarus Verilog, which is a nice open-source simulator with quite a bit of support. http://iverilog.icarus.com/ Of course, if you want to do VHDL (Sytse's implementation is done in VHDL, so that might not be a bad jumping-off point), there are similar tutorials. Google for them. GHDL is the main open-source simulator that I'm aware of, but I haven't used it much; I tend to stick with Verilog for my own projects because I like Icarus a lot. VHDL has the benefit of being much less limiting down the road compared to Verilog (without SystemVerilog features, most of which Icarus doesn't support, you can't even make a proper linked list because there's no dynamic sizing or allocation of ANYTHING), but I feel like it has a steeper learning curve partly because it's so type-strict (which, once you get the hang of it, is really more of a benefit because it doesn't tolerate much ambiguity). For tools for building the FPGA, just go to altera.com and download the toolchain (the free "Web Edition") for your platform. The Linux tools and the Windows tools are both equally good these days. If you want any help, advice, etc. on FPGA stuff, feel free to email me; I do it professionally in both VHDL and Verilog with both Xilinx and Altera FPGAs on a regular basis. > PS. I used CUPL at one time for ALTERA CPLD's and I like using it. Sure. It's great for small, CPLD-sized things. You'll probably not like it so much for building anything big. - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 24 20:40:54 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 19:40:54 -0600 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> References: <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> <516B2E29.2000204@jetnet.ab.ca> <1398558.04TL07KDH7@i5.sytse.net> <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517889A6.5070906@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/24/2013 5:58 PM, David Riley wrote: > Sure. It's great for small, CPLD-sized things. You'll > probably not like it so much for building anything big. > They still I think have schematic entry. That serves me quite nicely for the work I want to do. > - Dave > Ben. From jws at jwsss.com Wed Apr 24 21:27:34 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 19:27:34 -0700 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> References: <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> <516B2E29.2000204@jetnet.ab.ca> <1398558.04TL07KDH7@i5.sytse.net> <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51789496.3060107@jwsss.com> On 4/24/2013 4:58 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 24, 2013, at 7:32 PM, ben wrote: > >> On 4/14/2013 5:19 PM, Sytse van Slooten wrote: >> >>> What you would need is an FPGA board, one or more SD cards (not SDHC or newer, >>> but the 'old' type), and optionally a little board with the enc424j600 chip >>> from Microchips on it to allow for a DEUNA-type ethernet controller. >>> >>> The de0 board from Terasic has the advantage that it already has an SD card >>> connector onboard. But, if you want to add the ethernet stuff, for instance by >>> connecting a PMODNIC100 from Digilent, you'd have to wire it - look at the >>> pictures on my site how that looks. >> I just ordered the de0 board from Terasic. >> What do recommend as good online reference for programing >> the FPGA? I still want to play around with some simple >> computers in the 18 to 24 bit width range and since >> I have to do it all from scratch, programing the FPGA for >> what bit length I like looks, to be easy. It will be interfacing >> the core logic to memory and I/O that I may need help with. > Well, "easy". Hardware description languages have a steep > learning curve. If you're just starting out on them, it's > probably helpful to remember that what you're doing is a > lot more like describing a schematic in text (much like a > SPICE netlist, though with some more "programmy" bits) than > programming in a language like C. If you have some template > code you're planning on working with, that's probably a good > start (there are lots of CPU projects on opencores.org, as > well as a lot of other cores for interfaces like SPI if you > need them). > > This is a good reference for programming in Verilog that I > used when I was learning (and still come across helpful > sections when I'm Googling for usage details on the more > obscure parts). It starts from a beginning level. > > http://www.asic-world.com/verilog/veritut.html > > This is a great quick-reference card to print out and stick > to your wall. > > http://www.ece.uvic.ca/~fayez/courses/ceng465/vlogref.pdf > > For a Verilog simulator, I highly recommend Icarus Verilog, > which is a nice open-source simulator with quite a bit of > support. > > http://iverilog.icarus.com/ > > Of course, if you want to do VHDL (Sytse's implementation > is done in VHDL, so that might not be a bad jumping-off > point), there are similar tutorials. Google for them. > GHDL is the main open-source simulator that I'm aware of, > but I haven't used it much; I tend to stick with Verilog > for my own projects because I like Icarus a lot. VHDL > has the benefit of being much less limiting down the > road compared to Verilog (without SystemVerilog features, > most of which Icarus doesn't support, you can't even make > a proper linked list because there's no dynamic sizing or > allocation of ANYTHING), but I feel like it has a steeper > learning curve partly because it's so type-strict (which, > once you get the hang of it, is really more of a benefit > because it doesn't tolerate much ambiguity). > > For tools for building the FPGA, just go to altera.com > and download the toolchain (the free "Web Edition") for > your platform. The Linux tools and the Windows tools are > both equally good these days. > > If you want any help, advice, etc. on FPGA stuff, feel > free to email me; I do it professionally in both VHDL and > Verilog with both Xilinx and Altera FPGAs on a regular > basis. > >> PS. I used CUPL at one time for ALTERA CPLD's and I like using it. > Sure. It's great for small, CPLD-sized things. You'll > probably not like it so much for building anything big. > > > - Dave > > > Thanks for the info, Dave. I'm also puzzling over what to get and what to do with it. A friend looked at the PDP2011 page and the two main choices, and I had (and still mostly have) myself convinced that the DE0 board is the way to go. I'm only looking at that, and perhaps the 9020 processor that Lawrence Wilkinson has done as another thing to try to run on it. however he suggested this board which is a lot more expensive (about 400) but has a lot more to the chip. http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,400,1028&Prod=ZEDBOARD I'm mainly concerned with changing to another board in finding the tool chain to process what is needed, and don't know what I need to look for in tools and so forth. Maybe you can comment on what might be needed. There is the more ambitious 360/65 as well http://ibm360-console.blogspot.com/ http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/vhdl/ and might as well include the last couple of links PDP 11 http://pdp2011.sytse.net/wordpress/ DE0 http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=56&No=364 NEXYS2 http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=NEXYS2 From radioengr at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 22:20:35 2013 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 20:20:35 -0700 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <516B2925.601@gmail.com> References: <9169276.ldpx7PyGGZ@i5.sytse.net> <516B1EA3.4060406@jetnet.ab.ca> <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> <516B2925.601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5178A103.4000400@gmail.com> > I have the Nexys-2 which I got from Farnell, who I believe trade as > Element14 in the US, but buying direct from Digilent looks OK. If you > can find a tame student you may also be able to get one at an > academic discount. I have bought a number of FPGA boards from Digilent for work and play and I can recommend them. I did a PDP-8 FPGA design for the Nexys 2 (and others). See http://opencores.org/project,pdp8 A minimal PDP-8 system that will boot OS/8 requires the Nexys 2 board (1200K gate version), a Secure Digital (SD) Card PMOD card, and an generic SD card for the disk drives. The 500K gate version of the Nexys2 board does not have enough memory on chip to support the full PDP-8 memory. This will give you a PDP-8/E or PDP-8/A CPU (selectable), KM8E Extended Memory (32K), KE8 Extended Arithmetic Element (EAE), KM8E time sharing, real time clock, a KL8E console, a RK8E disk controller and 4x RK05 disk drives. Rob. From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 23:44:47 2013 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (Bill Layer) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 23:44:47 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <51777793.7050801@jbrain.com> References: <4A4BE74B.27151.DF9B639@cclist.sydex.com> <911C73B90051@dunfield.com> <51774D39.2000303@jbrain.com> <51777793.7050801@jbrain.com> Message-ID: If I can be of any help, I have a Kaypro 10 here that is booting reliably from an internal 10MB HD. No system disks here, but I do have modems and one very effective hardware telephone line emulator. On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 1:11 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 4/24/2013 12:22 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> On Wed, 24 Apr 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Tothwolf >>> wrote: >>> >>> Is it even possible to write reliable 360K disk using a 1.2MB drive? It >>>> had been ages since I worked with some of these drives since a lot of my >>>> stuff is packed away, but I seem to remember that I always had to use a >>>> 360K drive when /writing/ 360K disks, while I could still read 360K >>>> disks >>>> in a 1.2MB drive just fine. (The tracks written by a 1.2MB drive are >>>> narrower than those written by a 360K drive?) >>>> >>> >>> Yes, it's possible to write a 360k disk in a 1.2MB drive. See >>> http://www.classic-computers.**org.nz/blog/2010-02-18-** >>> writing-cpm-from-1.2mb-disks.**htm >>> >> >> Is this reliable in the long-term though? >> > At this point, I wasn't so much worried about long term usage. If I can > boot the unit with the disk, I'd load some utility and create an image on > the unit itself. > > > If you then read/write a 360K disk in a true 360K drive that was written >> to in a 1.2MB drive, won't you have odd issues with the track widths? What >> I seem to remember from years ago was a 1.2MB drive could not reliably >> overwrite data on a 360K disk because the tracks written by a 1.2MB drive >> were narrower, so when you would then work with that disk in a 360K drive, >> the 360K drive would pick up data from the original wider 360K drive track >> and the narrower 1.2MB drive track. Maybe this would work ok to a limited >> degree with a 360K floppy that had been bulk-erased prior to writing in a >> 1.2MB drive, which was then never written to again in a 1.2MB drive after >> being written to in a 360K drive? >> > I am using truly blank diskettes, and I'm not intending to write to the > disks after creation. > > > Jim > > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 02:06:43 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 08:06:43 +0100 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> <516B2E29.2000204@jetnet.ab.ca> <1398558.04TL07KDH7@i5.sytse.net> <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5178D603.7040108@gmail.com> On 25/04/2013 00:32, ben wrote: > On 4/14/2013 5:19 PM, Sytse van Slooten wrote: > >> What you would need is an FPGA board, one or more SD cards (not SDHC >> or newer, >> but the 'old' type), and optionally a little board with the >> enc424j600 chip >> from Microchips on it to allow for a DEUNA-type ethernet controller. >> >> The de0 board from Terasic has the advantage that it already has an >> SD card >> connector onboard. But, if you want to add the ethernet stuff, for >> instance by >> connecting a PMODNIC100 from Digilent, you'd have to wire it - look >> at the >> pictures on my site how that looks. > > I just ordered the de0 board from Terasic. > What do recommend as good online reference for programing > the FPGA? I started here:- http://cosmiac.org/Projects_FPGA.html & here http://cosmiac.org/spartan3e_tutorials.html but these are Xilynx specific, although the tools look very similar to the Quartus II software... I would run through the tutorials from Altera and then ask again about the specifics you need more info on. There is a load of free stuff on their web site similar to the cosmiac sites. http://www.altera.co.uk/education/univ/materials/manual/unv-lab-manual.html Much is designed around the Quartus II tool for which there is a free web edition for your chip/board. So if you use these tutorials and the web edition software you should be able to concentrate on learning Verilig or VHDL (or implementing using schematics) ... > I still want to play around with some simple > computers in the 18 to 24 bit width range and since > I have to do it all from scratch, programing the FPGA for > what bit length I like looks, to be easy. It will be interfacing > the core logic to memory and I/O that I may need help with. > There will probably be sample designs of the web site. You may also find usefull things on the "opencores.org" . There is also an FPGA usenet group and a Yahoo group. Both are very quiet but with good stuff ion the archives. You need to decide if you are going to do a "high level" functional spec base implementation which I would recommend to start with, or a "gate perfect" implementation, which is much closed to the original spec, but will take much longer. > >> Hope that's a clear enough shopping list for you :-) >> > > Ben. > PS. I used CUPL at one time for ALTERA CPLD's and I like using it. > I hope the answers are clear. Sorry for the delay but here in East Pondia I sleep when you are all come out to play in West Pondia... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From erik at baigar.de Thu Apr 25 02:36:21 2013 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 09:36:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DG Compiler issue - Stand-alone lib, SOS.LB Message-ID: Dear DG-Addicts, I am running RDOS (within simh) and I can readily compile and run Algol programs in this environment. Now want to compile Algol programs to be loaded stand-alone onto a 8k store machine via paper tape. To do this, a library called SOS.LB is needed (at least the linker complains, that it is missing) and so the question is whether some one out there has already compiled stand alone programs using RDOS and probably has the SOS.LB for Algol, and eventually further files required, available? I already tried to get in touch with people involved in these web sites http://www.chookfest.net/nova3/paper-tapes.html http://www.ludd.luth.se/~ragge/nova/swdocs.html but so far I have not got hands on the Algol stand alone stuff. BTW: I do NOT want to use the stand-alone tool chain, but generate the programs using the RDOS (because this is more convenient). Any hints are welcome, best regards, Erik. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 07:40:21 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 08:40:21 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <51789496.3060107@jwsss.com> References: <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> <516B2E29.2000204@jetnet.ab.ca> <1398558.04TL07KDH7@i5.sytse.net> <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <51789496.3060107@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2013, at 10:27 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > Thanks for the info, Dave. I'm also puzzling over what to get and what to do with it. > > A friend looked at the PDP2011 page and the two main choices, and I had (and still mostly have) myself convinced that the DE0 board is the way to go. I'm only looking at that, and perhaps the 9020 processor that Lawrence Wilkinson has done as another thing to try to run on it. > > however he suggested this board which is a lot more expensive (about 400) but has a lot more to the chip. > > http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,400,1028&Prod=ZEDBOARD That's from Xilinx's new line that has a beefy ARM processor built into the chip which interfaces nicely to the FPGA logic. I don't know if you're likely to use that for a CPU project, though it's great for a lot of other things. The one that's on that board has approximately 3 times the FPGA logic that the DE0 has; if you really wanted to expand the FPGA logic for the same price, you could also try Terasic's DE2-115, which has more than twice the logic that Digilent board does (note that the Zedboard is only available to academic customers, and the DE0-115 has a lower price for academic customers). http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?No=502 I like Terasic's boards a LOT, and the DE2-115 comes packed with a lot of REALLY nice features for hobbyists (it's like the DE0 on steroids). > I'm mainly concerned with changing to another board in finding the tool chain to process what is needed, and don't know what I need to look for in tools and so forth. Maybe you can comment on what might be needed. The Xilinx toolchain which includes the Zynq devices is freely available as well. http://www.xilinx.com/products/design-tools/ise-design-suite/ise-webpack.htm Xilinx has a new toolchain out called "Vivado", but it's VERY new, and therefore somewhat unpolished. I haven't used it yet, but I hear unfavorable things from some colleagues. Stick with ISE for now. Like Altera, it runs on Linux and Windows just about equally well. > There is the more ambitious 360/65 as well > > http://ibm360-console.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/vhdl/ The 360/30 project calls for an FPGA of about the size used on the DE0; the "1000K gates" Spartan 3 has about 17K logic elements, while the DE0 has about 16k. Manufacturers stopped using the "gate count" nomenclature a while ago because it's not particularly accurate or useful, so an LE count is usually better. That's also a really old board, and Xilinx has EOLed the original Spartan-3 line (the Spartan-3A and -3E lines are alive and well still). FWIW, a brief primer on FPGA nomenclature, if you're going to be looking at sizes: A "logic cell" or "logic element" usually means a 4-input, 1-bit lookup table with a (bypassable) 1-bit output register. This can implement any 4-input logic function (basically as a truth table) and optionally register it. The bigger FPGAs (Arria/Stratix for Altera, Kintex/Virtex for Xilinx) have bigger LUTs to implement more complex features in a single logic element, but their sizes are usually given in an "equivalent" 4-input LUT count; for example, an EP2S60 is a Stratix II (2S) with the equivalent of 60K LEs. It's kind of a hand-wavy number, because they essentially just apply a scalar multiple to the actual number of larger elements they have, but in the general case it's a lot more useful than the "equivalent gate count" numbers from a decade ago. In any case, you should be able to fit the 360/30 FPGA on the DE0, though you'll have to create the project file and do the pin assignments yourself. You'll also have to hack out any Xilinx-specific things in the VHDL if there are any, which is usually just PLLs and block RAMs in most smaller projects (there are other things that might be lurking, but they'd be unlikely in a project this size). I don't know about the /65, though; that's on a much bigger FPGA that has 110K equivalent LEs, and it uses PCI Express to communicate with the host PC to run as the channel. It doesn't have sizing info, but that project would definitely need significant mods to work with smaller boards. It might be a fun (if somewhat advanced) project to port it to work on the Zynq, since the built- in ARM would provide the functionality of the channel emulator quite nicely. No guarantees on whether the 360/65 part of it would fit in the FPGA, though, since there's no sizing info provided on the page (you could always try to download and build it, though the free software won't build for a Virtex5 that big; if you're really curious, I could build it with mine, since I have access to the full suite). - Dave From hachti at hachti.de Thu Apr 25 07:40:27 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 14:40:27 +0200 Subject: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992- @b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> Message-ID: <5179243B.10002@hachti.de> Am 19.04.2013 05:42, schrieb Zane H. Healy: > At 11:31 PM +0000 4/18/13, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> Can you pass along a comment requesting the subject have the name of the list >> appended to it? It'd help with sorting. ;) >> >> Does anyone else want that, or is it just me? > > I think it's just you. I would prefer if that wasn't done, it wastes bytes, and > lengthens the subject line. Agree. > Personally I have a filter setup so that all classiccmp emails go to the same > mailbox. Yes, procmail does it for me. Have collected years of cctalk... Ph -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 09:50:08 2013 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 16:50:08 +0200 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> <516B2E29.2000204@jetnet.ab.ca> <1398558.04TL07KDH7@i5.sytse.net> <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <51789496.3060107@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 2:40 PM, David Riley wrote: > In any case, you should be able to fit the 360/30 FPGA on the DE0, though you'll > have to create the project file and do the pin assignments yourself. You'll > also have to hack out any Xilinx-specific things in the VHDL if there are any, > which is usually just PLLs and block RAMs in most smaller projects (there are > other things that might be lurking, but they'd be unlikely in a project this > size). I don't know about the /65, though; that's on a much bigger FPGA that > has 110K equivalent LEs, and it uses PCI Express to communicate with the host PC > to run as the channel. It doesn't have sizing info, but that project would > definitely need significant mods to work with smaller boards. It might be a fun > (if somewhat advanced) project to port it to work on the Zynq, since the built- > in ARM would provide the functionality of the channel emulator quite nicely. > No guarantees on whether the 360/65 part of it would fit in the FPGA, though, > since there's no sizing info provided on the page (you could always try to > download and build it, though the free software won't build for a Virtex5 that > big; if you're really curious, I could build it with mine, since I have access > to the full suite). That /65 is the one I'm creating. It's not quite finished yet, so I'd stick with the /30 project which is known to run well.I don't expect to be able to work on the /65 for a while, I'm in the process of moving to a new home (with a lot more space for my hobbies). Camiel From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 10:01:57 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 11:01:57 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: <39042473.z8dtKSQmpi@i5.sytse.net> <516B2E29.2000204@jetnet.ab.ca> <1398558.04TL07KDH7@i5.sytse.net> <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <51789496.3060107@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5E070A7B-F2DD-4EE5-AEDC-3E59511EFF63@gmail.com> On Apr 25, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > That /65 is the one I'm creating. It's not quite finished yet, so I'd > stick with the /30 project which is known to run well.I don't expect > to be able to work on the /65 for a while, I'm in the process of > moving to a new home (with a lot more space for my hobbies). Didn't realize that was yours. Nice console! And nice project! I'll be interested to see what comes out of it and possibly contribute once my box of tuits is a little more full. - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 11:44:45 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 17:44:45 +0100 Subject: Amusing tweet Message-ID: https://twitter.com/computermuseum/status/327461803061817345/photo/1 @computermuseum (Computing History) 3m ago If my car travelled back to the seventies it would be the most powerful car on the road!! :-) pic.twitter.com/P2476JP6BC (Pic shows a car boot containing a PDP - I can't read the model number - and an Imsai 8080.) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mark.darvill at mac.com Thu Apr 25 11:56:05 2013 From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 17:56:05 +0100 Subject: DG Desktop Generation Manual Message-ID: <51796025.8080309@mac.com> Tommie, Many thanks for the suggestion regarding the guy on ebay. Bruce has also contacted me directly off list. Mark ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:44:23 +0200 From: Tommie Mademark To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" Subject: RE: DG Desktop Generation Manuals Message-ID:<40A791DCA605FE468794FC2AE63FA2041EFC827D09 at mail.fox.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Signature emlmth1 on eBay.com has a set of 5.25 inch diskettes with AOS install for sale. The floppies are currently not listed but he had them listed a few months back for me, but I was looking for AOS/VS on diskettes, not AOS. Bruce Ray (bruce at Wild-Hare.com) might have the "Desktop Generation Model 20-30 Technical Reference" manual. Tommie Mademark My Data General bloghttp://DataGeneral.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 25 11:59:41 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 10:59:41 -0600 Subject: Amusing tweet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Liam Proven writes: > (Pic shows a car boot containing a PDP - I can't read the model number > - and an Imsai 8080.) PDP-8/e I think -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 12:10:50 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 13:10:50 -0400 Subject: Amusing tweet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > https://twitter.com/computermuseum/status/327461803061817345/photo/1 > > @computermuseum > (Computing History) > 3m ago > > If my car travelled back to the seventies it would be the most > powerful car on the road!! :-) pic.twitter.com/P2476JP6BC > > (Pic shows a car boot containing a PDP - I can't read the model number > - and an Imsai 8080.) PDP-8/e -ethan From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Apr 25 13:50:40 2013 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 13:50:40 -0500 Subject: OT: manual (was: Re: 8mm Movie to Digital Service?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:40 -0500 4/25/13, tony wrote: >...'Manual of Sub-Standard Cinematography'... I have a sudden vision of a book containing only two words: "American television" -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 14:21:47 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 16:21:47 -0300 Subject: manual (was: Re: 8mm Movie to Digital Service?) References: Message-ID: <8C29A5509FDA4C50B49B0232DC644261@tababook> It could be worse - Brazilian Cinema! (although it is getting better day after day) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Tapley To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 3:50 PM Subject: OT: manual (was: Re: 8mm Movie to Digital Service?) At 10:40 -0500 4/25/13, tony wrote: >...'Manual of Sub-Standard Cinematography'... I have a sudden vision of a book containing only two words: "American television" -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 25 14:58:26 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 20:58:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: manual (was: Re: 8mm Movie to Digital Service?) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Apr 25, 13 01:50:40 pm Message-ID: > > At 10:40 -0500 4/25/13, tony wrote: > >...'Manual of Sub-Standard Cinematography'... > > I have a sudden vision of a book containing only two words: > > "American television" :-). Nothing to do with cine films, but at one time the best grade of electrical meter you could get was called 'Sub Standard'. It meant it had been checked and claibrated against a primary standard. Needless to say this term caused a lot of confusion, people could not understnad why a 'suh standard voltmeter' was considerably more expeisnbe than a 'first grade voltmeter'/ -tony From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Apr 25 17:36:06 2013 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 18:36:06 -0400 Subject: The CoCo-X Project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5179AFD6.7080901@verizon.net> On 4/23/2013 12:07 AM, tim lindner wrote: > Gary Becker is running a Kickstarter project to create a CoCo 3 replacement > motherboard. > > I'd really like to get one, but it needs more support. > > http://kck.st/16fAwkf Tim, Thanks for posting this. I think the name sounds fairly familiar. Like maybe I've visited his site before.... I haven't spent much time looking at his core, which might be very well fleshed out, however The reasons that it didn't get funded (guess it ended today?) might be: * he really hasn't made any part selections, including which FPGA * the video is too long and boring * there's no prototype PCB which leads to * doing PCB design work with high-density BGA FPGAs can be pretty hard * delivery was something like 1.5 years away (kickstarter projects normally push their delivery dates, so it could easily be 2015+ before something could ship) * too many details just don't seem hashed out yet, including how exactly the board was going to interface into the chassis, connector options. (see updates discussion) It's just hard to imagine what it's going to look like. The bottom line is that it didn't seem far enough along and that the creator needed to spend some more time and money producing at least a simple prototype on a custom pcb. Showing hdl running on an eval board _might_ prove out the hdl, but the custom PCB could be a nightmare. Especially for someone who doesn't have the experience (which he either doesn't have or didn't mention) I have a friend involved in a project that just raised $200k which had prototypes produced along with screen shots from test equipment demonstrating the stability, capability, etc of the device...... Obviously he spent time and money of his own, but that easily translated into faith from the investors..... They met their investment goal in 7 days. FWIW, Keith From cclist at sytse.net Thu Apr 25 17:41:24 2013 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 00:41:24 +0200 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 19:58:37 David Riley wrote: > Well, "easy". Hardware description languages have a steep > learning curve. > If you're just starting out on them, it's > probably helpful to remember that what you're doing is a > lot more like describing a schematic in text (much like a > SPICE netlist, though with some more "programmy" bits) than > programming in a language like C. If you have some template > code you're planning on working with, that's probably a good > start (there are lots of CPU projects on opencores.org, as > well as a lot of other cores for interfaces like SPI if you > need them). I learned much about the way a cpu is implemented from the example in http://opencores.org/project,mcpu which is a minimally simple design, but it shows the basic concept very elegantly. The other thing that helped me a lot is that with the behavioral languages you should always have in the back of your mind some image of how it will translate to hardware - ie, not think like 'if this happens, then it will do that' but rather 'the if will cause a comparator to be made, which feeds an enable signal towards X'. Schematic capture can take you a long way, but it's much more 'hardware style' work than VHDL or Verilog. I initially thought I would like schematic capture a lot better, but after a couple of days of drawing, I changed my mind. The initial setup is fairly doable, but changing your design can be a headache with schematics. I think Altera's Quartus still lets you do schematics, but I'm not so sure about Xilinx' ISE. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 25 17:47:18 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 16:47:18 -0600 Subject: The CoCo-X Project In-Reply-To: <5179AFD6.7080901@verizon.net> References: <5179AFD6.7080901@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5179B276.50407@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/25/2013 4:36 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 4/23/2013 12:07 AM, tim lindner wrote: >> Gary Becker is running a Kickstarter project to create a CoCo 3 >> replacement >> motherboard. >> >> I'd really like to get one, but it needs more support. >> >> http://kck.st/16fAwkf > > Tim, > You can still buy Coco III's. Ben. PS. DE0 projects look to be more fun -- PDP's , IBM's ect. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 17:59:22 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 19:59:22 -0300 Subject: The CoCo-X Project References: <5179AFD6.7080901@verizon.net> <5179B276.50407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <09C6A2A62CF94C2FBB68C121ABC952C9@tababook> >PS. DE0 projects look to be more fun -- PDP's , IBM's ect. Does anyone has a list of projects for the DE0? I have the Caro's MSX 2+ installed on mine :o) From cclist at sytse.net Thu Apr 25 18:01:08 2013 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 01:01:08 +0200 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <51789496.3060107@jwsss.com> References: <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <51789496.3060107@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <7664583.mphfHEp4Aa@i5.sytse.net> On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 19:27:34 Jim Stephens wrote: > Thanks for the info, Dave. I'm also puzzling over what to get and what > to do with it. > > A friend looked at the PDP2011 page and the two main choices, and I had > (and still mostly have) myself convinced that the DE0 board is the way > to go. I'm only looking at that, and perhaps the 9020 processor that > Lawrence Wilkinson has done as another thing to try to run on it. > > however he suggested this board which is a lot more expensive (about > 400) but has a lot more to the chip. > > http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,400,1028&Prod=ZEDBO > ARD > DE0 is a nice little board, and it will run my pdp11 stuff - with some limitations; for the big cpu models, the floating point unit will not fit in. There are bigger models, like de2-115 - but that's significantly more expensive, and de0-nano - which is rather minimalistic, and will require some wiring or soldering. Altera is apparently also coming with a new low-priced cyclone-5 based board somewhat comparable with zedboard - ie, an fpga with an arm core in it. Nexys2 exists in two variants - be sure to get the bigger -1200 version if you go that way, the -500 will be too small for many things in my pdp11 - although you can still squeeze a small system in. The other Digilent boards are IMO either a bit oldish (ie, the spartan-3 boards), or too expensive (atlys etc), or not really big enough (nexys3) - and I also don't like that some boards require you to use Digilent's tools, and those only work on Windows. Zedboard, btw, looks like it is a complicated beast - and much more than required for a mere pdp11. Also, it has ddr3 memory - currently, I only have static ram or regular sdram drivers in my vhdl, and ddr3 might be a bit more complicated. And that's a thing to consider as well if you want to use the boards for other things besides my pdp11 :-) as memory drivers might be a lot of work to fit onto an existing design. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 25 18:45:43 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 17:45:43 -0600 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/25/2013 4:41 PM, Sytse van Slooten wrote: > On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 19:58:37 David Riley wrote: > >> Well, "easy". Hardware description languages have a steep >> learning curve. >> If you're just starting out on them, it's >> probably helpful to remember that what you're doing is a >> lot more like describing a schematic in text (much like a >> SPICE netlist, though with some more "programmy" bits) than >> programming in a language like C. If you have some template >> code you're planning on working with, that's probably a good >> start (there are lots of CPU projects on opencores.org, as >> well as a lot of other cores for interfaces like SPI if you >> need them). > > I learned much about the way a cpu is implemented from the example in > > http://opencores.org/project,mcpu > What a lie. This is not open. I have to register. I plan to use AHDL for my logic designs, once I figure out the text format, so I can use my favorite text editor. Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 25 20:06:30 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 21:06:30 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> On 04/25/2013 07:45 PM, ben wrote: >>> Well, "easy". Hardware description languages have a steep >>> learning curve. >>> If you're just starting out on them, it's >>> probably helpful to remember that what you're doing is a >>> lot more like describing a schematic in text (much like a >>> SPICE netlist, though with some more "programmy" bits) than >>> programming in a language like C. If you have some template >>> code you're planning on working with, that's probably a good >>> start (there are lots of CPU projects on opencores.org, as >>> well as a lot of other cores for interfaces like SPI if you >>> need them). >> >> I learned much about the way a cpu is implemented from the example in >> >> http://opencores.org/project,mcpu > > What a lie. This is not open. I have to register. > I plan to use AHDL for my logic designs, once I figure out > the text format, so I can use my favorite text editor. Oh good lord, yes you have to register, get over it. It is VERY open. Opencores is a very well-respected organization. You type your name in order to gain access to gazillions of dollars' worth of IP. What the hell are people thinking these days?! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 20:14:57 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 21:14:57 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6F8B7769-0541-4F47-909D-B6FC70F34D22@gmail.com> On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh good lord, yes you have to register, get over it. It is VERY open. Opencores is a very well-respected organization. You type your name in order to gain access to gazillions of dollars' worth of IP. Among other things, their PCI core isn't half bad. We used it on a production product that required really high bandwidths (for 32-bit, 33 MHz PCI, so nothing REALLY astronomical even for the time) and it performed admirably. That's the sort of core that a vendor charges tens of thousands of dollars for, and you DON'T get the source code for all that. So yeah, OpenCores is a pretty good deal, especially because they encourage common use of the Wishbone bus, which a) makes it easier to interoperate various cores from them and b) is also pretty easy to glue onto other buses (there's practically no translation needed for Altera's Avalon-MM bus, for example). - Dave From jws at jwsss.com Thu Apr 25 20:28:53 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 18:28:53 -0700 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> On 4/25/2013 6:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > You type your name in order to gain access to gazillions of dollars' > worth of IP. > > What the hell are people thinking these days?! > > -Dave Clearly the cost of tin foil is too low. Who says you even type your name. I can't recall the last time I did that at a site, and frankly don't care as long as the spam generated is traceable. If you own your own domain that problem is easily handled. I appreciate all the pointers and advise from those who have replied. My main target is the PDP 11, but hopefully will pick up some tools and learn something in the process. Jim From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Apr 25 20:33:07 2013 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 22:33:07 -0300 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201304260133.r3Q1XOCV022311@mx1.ezwind.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I learned much about the way a cpu is implemented from the example in > >> > >> http://opencores.org/project,mcpu > > > > What a lie. This is not open. I have to register. > > I plan to use AHDL for my logic designs, once I figure out > > the text format, so I can use my favorite text editor. > > Oh good lord, yes you have to register, get over it. It is VERY > open. Opencores is a very well-respected organization. You type your > name in order to gain access to gazillions of dollars' worth of IP. > > What the hell are people thinking these days?! And you don't have to actually register - by selecting the "browse svn" link and navigating to the "web_uploads" folder you can download the files ("mcpu-doc.pdf" and "mcpu.pdf" seem to be exactly the same) just fine. Of course, if someone responsible for the site reads this they might change this. Though I have been part of the opencores community since the begining, I do find it a bother to have to log in when I just want to take a quick look at some project's file. -- Jecel From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 25 20:54:18 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 18:54:18 -0700 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5179DE4A.8080506@bitsavers.org> On 4/25/13 6:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > What the hell are people thinking > It's Ben. Wake me when he finishes something. From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 25 21:14:13 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 02:14:13 -0000 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/25/2013 07:45 PM, ben wrote: >>>> Well, "easy". Hardware description languages have a steep >>>> learning curve. >>>> If you're just starting out on them, it's >>>> probably helpful to remember that what you're doing is a >>>> lot more like describing a schematic in text (much like a >>>> SPICE netlist, though with some more "programmy" bits) than >>>> programming in a language like C. If you have some template >>>> code you're planning on working with, that's probably a good >>>> start (there are lots of CPU projects on opencores.org, as >>>> well as a lot of other cores for interfaces like SPI if you >>>> need them). >>> >>> I learned much about the way a cpu is implemented from the example in >>> >>> http://opencores.org/project,mcpu >> >> What a lie. This is not open. I have to register. >> I plan to use AHDL for my logic designs, once I figure out >> the text format, so I can use my favorite text editor. > > Oh good lord, yes you have to register, get over it. It is VERY > open. Opencores is a very well-respected organization. You type your > name in order to gain access to gazillions of dollars' worth of IP. > > What the hell are people thinking these days?! > I don't know! It not being open would mean you couldn't get anything. Needing to register...with a lot of the information collected seeming to be statistical, it doesn't seem to bad... > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Apr 25 21:23:07 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 22:23:07 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5179E50B.6090703@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/25/2013 07:45 PM, ben wrote: > >>>> Well, "easy". Hardware description languages have a steep >>>> learning curve. >>>> If you're just starting out on them, it's >>>> probably helpful to remember that what you're doing is a >>>> lot more like describing a schematic in text (much like a >>>> SPICE netlist, though with some more "programmy" bits) than >>>> programming in a language like C. If you have some template >>>> code you're planning on working with, that's probably a good >>>> start (there are lots of CPU projects on opencores.org, as >>>> well as a lot of other cores for interfaces like SPI if you >>>> need them). >>> >>> >>> I learned much about the way a cpu is implemented from the example in >>> >>> http://opencores.org/project,mcpu >> >> >> What a lie. This is not open. I have to register. >> I plan to use AHDL for my logic designs, once I figure out >> the text format, so I can use my favorite text editor. > > > Oh good lord, yes you have to register, get over it. It is VERY > open. Opencores is a very well-respected organization. You type your > name in order to gain access to gazillions of dollars' worth of IP. > > What the hell are people thinking these days?! Check From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 22:18:42 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 23:18:42 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:28 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > My main target is the PDP 11, but hopefully will pick up some tools and learn something in the process. Definitely! FPGAs (and programmable logic in general) are a lot of fun despite the somewhat steep learning curve. It's really hard to find GOOD FPGA programmers out there (we usually run into software people who have been unwillingly shoehorned into FPGA dev and treat it like a CPU, so don't make that mistake), so if you get good at it, it can make you some real money. Lots of money to be made cleaning up after bad FPGA programmers, if my job is any indication. But yeah, have fun. There are SO MANY nice FPGA boards, mostly from Digilent and Terasic, that are aimed at hobbyists (maybe ones with slightly deep pockets sometimes) and have a lot of fun interfaces to play with. I made a VGA controller for my Terasic DE1 that generated a colorized "munching squares" display at 640x480, and it came in under 100 LEs (less than 1% of the 25K LE FPGA). Really fun to see what you can get away with, just like logic on a PCB! - Dave From shumaker at att.net Thu Apr 25 22:26:36 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 20:26:36 -0700 Subject: HP41 and HP12 Calculator Manuals Message-ID: <5179F3EC.6070606@att.net> I've seen occasional threads about the HP calculators here and there... so I suspect these original docs might be of value to someone... HP41C/41CV Owner's Handbook and Programming Guide HP41C/41CV Operating Manual - A Guide for the Experienced User HP41C Surveying Pac Manual HP12C Owners Handbook and Problem Solving Guide. acquired for a very meager sum at an estate sale so... free for shipping from 95006 steve From shumaker at att.net Thu Apr 25 22:28:11 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 20:28:11 -0700 Subject: 1972 Harris Semiconductor Catalog Message-ID: <5179F44B.1010405@att.net> Recently acquired one at an "estate" sale for a minor sum... It's a quite musty but very readable 3 ring binder will the entire Harris semi line as of 1 Jan 1972. Including their early ICs and some app notes. I've already scanned it for my files. If anyone on the list would like this thing free for shipping from 95006, I'll pass it on. The binder has mildew and water stains and it has a very musty smell about it... but otherwise in ok shape. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 22:49:54 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 23:49:54 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> On Apr 25, 2013, at 6:41 PM, Sytse van Slooten wrote: > The other thing that helped me a lot is that with the behavioral languages you > should always have in the back of your mind some image of how it will > translate to hardware - ie, not think like 'if this happens, then it will do > that' but rather 'the if will cause a comparator to be made, which feeds an > enable signal towards X'. > > Schematic capture can take you a long way, but it's much more 'hardware style' > work than VHDL or Verilog. I initially thought I would like schematic capture > a lot better, but after a couple of days of drawing, I changed my mind. The > initial setup is fairly doable, but changing your design can be a headache > with schematics. I think Altera's Quartus still lets you do schematics, but > I'm not so sure about Xilinx' ISE. Two crucial things about doing FPGA design in schematic capture, aside from what you've already mentioned: 1) The schematic capture tools are not portable across vendors. Altera and Xilinx do not cross-import each others' schematics. You can do schematic entry in Altium Designer and export it to Altera and Xilinx projects, but that's a really silly thing to do. 2) FPGAs use lookup tables to essentially implement the truth tables of logical functions, not individual AND and OR gates (or product terms, like real CPLDs and PALs and PLAs and other early programmable logic devices do). Modern FPGAs use a MINIMUM of four-input LUTs, and the trend with newer ones is 6-input (or Altera's ALM "fracturable 8-input LUT" structure, which is kind of weird but also really flexible and lets you do things like crossbar switches with way fewer resources). When you design at the schematic capture level, as Sytse mentioned, you tend to lose a sense of that. Things that look like a mess of AND, OR, NOT and XOR gates can turn into a single LUT rather easily, which is a lot easier to see when you're doing it at the HDL level. Also, things like adders for which there is architectural acceleration available (like hardware carry chains, sometimes even full adders built into the logic element) aren't going to get used if you're e.g. building your ALU out of raw gates. When we see any of our customers doing FPGA design by schematic entry, it's usually a sign that something is dreadfully wrong with their engineering department, because it's akin to trying to build a rocket out of bubble gum and paperclips (at least with what modern FPGAs are purposed for). Just don't do it. Learn Verilog or VHDL, or better yet both. They will take you far. - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 25 22:53:55 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 21:53:55 -0600 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5179FA53.6010802@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/25/2013 9:18 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:28 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > Definitely! FPGAs (and programmable logic in general) are a lot > of fun despite the somewhat steep learning curve. It's really > hard to find GOOD FPGA programmers out there (we usually run > into software people who have been unwillingly shoehorned into > FPGA dev and treat it like a CPU, so don't make that mistake), > so if you get good at it, it can make you some real money. Lots > of money to be made cleaning up after bad FPGA programmers, if > my job is any indication. Good ... I'll send you the buggy logic after a few weeks. AHDL looks to be the cats meow for me, easy to program in like PAL's. I plan to use slow ripple carry to emulate TTL logic speeds -- 18 bits with a 1 MHZ memory cycle. > But yeah, have fun. There are SO MANY nice FPGA boards, mostly > from Digilent and Terasic, that are aimed at hobbyists (maybe > ones with slightly deep pockets sometimes) and have a lot of > fun interfaces to play with. DE0 looks to be a very nice board, ample memory for a small computer at a good price. I was planning to build something with 2901's but because the connectors I ordered did not work as well as I hoped this came along at the right time. I still plan to make a front panel for the DE0, to match the internal the CPU. I made a VGA controller for my > Terasic DE1 that generated a colorized "munching squares" > display at 640x480, and it came in under 100 LEs (less than 1% > of the 25K LE FPGA). Really fun to see what you can get away > with, just like logic on a PCB! Sounds like a C64 sprite controler would be easy, if you still can get a analog TV set up. > > - Dave > Ben. PS. I do plan on finishing this project, I planned to finish it within the next 25 years. All my disposable income has gone into HI-FI equipment, the latest state of the art logic is not going away for a while. From b4 at gewt.net Thu Apr 25 23:04:15 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 04:04:15 -0000 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <5179FA53.6010802@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2013, ben wrote: > > On 4/25/2013 9:18 PM, David Riley wrote: >> On Apr 25, 2013, at 9:28 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > >> Definitely! FPGAs (and programmable logic in general) are a lot >> of fun despite the somewhat steep learning curve. It's really >> hard to find GOOD FPGA programmers out there (we usually run >> into software people who have been unwillingly shoehorned into >> FPGA dev and treat it like a CPU, so don't make that mistake), >> so if you get good at it, it can make you some real money. Lots >> of money to be made cleaning up after bad FPGA programmers, if >> my job is any indication. > > Good ... I'll send you the buggy logic after a few weeks. > AHDL looks to be the cats meow for me, easy to program in > like PAL's. I plan to use slow ripple carry to emulate > TTL logic speeds -- 18 bits with a 1 MHZ memory cycle. > > >> But yeah, have fun. There are SO MANY nice FPGA boards, mostly >> from Digilent and Terasic, that are aimed at hobbyists (maybe >> ones with slightly deep pockets sometimes) and have a lot of >> fun interfaces to play with. > > DE0 looks to be a very nice board, ample memory for a small > computer at a good price. I was planning to build something > with 2901's but because the connectors I ordered did not work as > well as I hoped this came along at the right time. > I still plan to make a front panel for the DE0, to match the > internal the CPU. > > I made a VGA controller for my >> Terasic DE1 that generated a colorized "munching squares" >> display at 640x480, and it came in under 100 LEs (less than 1% >> of the 25K LE FPGA). Really fun to see what you can get away >> with, just like logic on a PCB! > > Sounds like a C64 sprite controler would be easy, if you still can > get a analog TV set up. > >> >> - Dave >> > > Ben. > PS. I do plan on finishing this project, I planned to finish it > within the next 25 years. All my disposable income has gone into > HI-FI equipment, the latest state of the art logic is not going > away for a while. > I hope you remembered your $1000 cables to improve the quality of your audio! ;) > > > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Apr 25 23:08:08 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 00:08:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201304260408.AAA28364@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>> http://opencores.org/project,mcpu >>> What a lie. This is not open. I have to register. >> Oh good lord, yes you have to register, get over it. Wow, what a cogent and convincing argument. Personally, if it's what I expect it is - a bunch of VHDL-or-equivalent describing various interesting things - the biggest pragmatic issue I would have with the data is that, however open it itself may be, it's unusable without going through undocumented - closed - software and hardware, as far as I can tell. At least, last time I recall seeing it discussed here, there apparently were no documented FPGAs. (I probably would have other pragmatic issues with it, but they're not related to openness or lack thereof.) The name is also rather unfortunate; I've noticed a distinct correlation between having "open" in the name and actually being closed and proprietary, to the point where I usually interpret "open" as referring to customer pocketbooks. >> Opencores is a very well-respected organization. That, in itself, says nothing - it's equally true of, say, Oracle. >> What the hell are people thinking these days?! I suspect it's largely backlash against a long history of privacy invasions and ludicrous hoop-jumping. Which I certainly find totally understandable, however (in)appropriate the reaction may be in any particular case. > It not being open would mean you couldn't get anything. Not necessarily. Openness is hardly an all-or-nothing thing. > Needing to register...with a lot of the information collected seeming > to be statistical, it doesn't seem to bad... Does the license permit (modification and) redistribution? That's actually the important test, to me, for whether it deserves the `open' part of the name. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 25 23:24:39 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 00:24:39 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <201304260408.AAA28364@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <201304260408.AAA28364@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <517A0187.4070607@neurotica.com> On 04/26/2013 12:08 AM, Mouse wrote: >>>>> http://opencores.org/project,mcpu >>>> What a lie. This is not open. I have to register. >>> Oh good lord, yes you have to register, get over it. > > Wow, what a cogent and convincing argument. It wasn't intended as such. Here: "If you don't want to type a few lines of gibberish to get the free stuff that you'd otherwise have to pay thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars for, then don't. Type the gibberish, pay the money, or do without." And as others have pointed out, you don't actually even need to register. > Personally, if it's what I expect it is - a bunch of VHDL-or-equivalent > describing various interesting things - the biggest pragmatic issue I > would have with the data is that, however open it itself may be, it's > unusable without going through undocumented - closed - software and > hardware, as far as I can tell. At least, last time I recall seeing it > discussed here, there apparently were no documented FPGAs. (I probably > would have other pragmatic issues with it, but they're not related to > openness or lack thereof.) > > The name is also rather unfortunate; I've noticed a distinct > correlation between having "open" in the name and actually being closed > and proprietary, to the point where I usually interpret "open" as > referring to customer pocketbooks. "OH MY GOD I HAVE TO TYPE SOMETHING TO GET FREE STUFF, HURRRR!" So don't go get the free stuff, then. Good heavens. Some people get WAY too uppity about friggin' NOTHING. Hence: "Get over it". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Apr 25 23:24:59 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 00:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > FPGAs (and programmable logic in general) are a lot of fun despite > the somewhat steep learning curve. Well...can be. Personally, having to use an undocumented binary blob of a compiler - which, oh, by the way, almost certainly doesn't run on either the OS or the CPU architecture I want to run it on, even if I were willing to run it - kills the `fun' aspect dead. If you find it fun despite such things? More power to you. I'll stick to using my `fun' time for things that don't ick me out. > It's really hard to find GOOD FPGA programmers out there Given the "use this closed proprietary compiler to generate an opaque blob which you throw at undocumented hardware" nature of FPGA dev, I'm not surprised. I suspect I'd be decent, possibly good, at FPGA programming. But until either someone is willing to pay me to find out or the hardware gets documented, that will remain unknown. I doubt I'm _entirely_ alone in that. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From alan at alanlee.org Fri Apr 26 00:34:28 2013 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 01:34:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1751353619.195169.1366954468508.JavaMail.vpopmail@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> I don't get your objection or what you see as an alternative to modern FPGA vendors. FPGA hardware is well documented by all 4 major vendors at a cell, routing, and overall architecture level. Pick up a family handbook from one of them and I think you'll be shocked at just how much gory detail is actually in there - detailed almost down to a gate level. HDLs isolate you from having to deal with manually connecting gate A to gate B times thousands of nets in a relatively portable way. I can't imagine you being an MPU/MCU fan as ABI licencors like ARM, MIPS, Intel, Freescale, etc don't open source the gate level designs for 99% of the worlds most popular CPUs either. FPGA are way more open and more documented in that regard as you can instance your own designed CPU or a dozen open ones across thousands of programmable devices both past and well into the future. And once you prototype your own design, many FPGA vendors have ASIC services where you can mask your chip in hard silicon then it really will be your own design you can open source if you desire. Tools from Xilinx, Altera, Lattice, and MicroSemi run on Linux as well as Windows. -Alan On April 26, 2013 at 12:24 AM Mouse wrote: > > FPGAs (and programmable logic in general) are a lot of fun despite > > the somewhat steep learning curve. > > Well...can be. Personally, having to use an undocumented binary blob > of a compiler - which, oh, by the way, almost certainly doesn't run on > either the OS or the CPU architecture I want to run it on, even if I > were willing to run it - kills the `fun' aspect dead. > > If you find it fun despite such things? More power to you. I'll stick > to using my `fun' time for things that don't ick me out. > > > It's really hard to find GOOD FPGA programmers out there > > Given the "use this closed proprietary compiler to generate an opaque > blob which you throw at undocumented hardware" nature of FPGA dev, I'm > not surprised. > > I suspect I'd be decent, possibly good, at FPGA programming. But until > either someone is willing to pay me to find out or the hardware gets > documented, that will remain unknown. > > I doubt I'm _entirely_ alone in that. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 26 01:35:25 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 23:35:25 -0700 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517A202D.5010002@sydex.com> On 04/25/2013 08:18 PM, David Riley wrote: > Definitely! FPGAs (and programmable logic in general) are a lot > of fun despite the somewhat steep learning curve. It's really > hard to find GOOD FPGA programmers out there (we usually run > into software people who have been unwillingly shoehorned into > FPGA dev and treat it like a CPU, so don't make that mistake), > so if you get good at it, it can make you some real money. Lots > of money to be made cleaning up after bad FPGA programmers, if > my job is any indication. I have to admit that my big hurdle isn't writing the implementation code, but rather writing GOOD verification/simulation code. It seems that no matter how thorough you think you were, there's always a gotcha somewhere that you didn't think of that rears its ugly head when you actually try to use the thing. Thank heavens that the stuff is RE-programmable... --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 25 20:11:45 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 21:11:45 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0EEDA7FD-66A8-44FA-9BD1-05AEFBE6751F@gmail.com> On Apr 25, 2013, at 7:45 PM, ben wrote: >> I learned much about the way a cpu is implemented from the example in >> >> http://opencores.org/project,mcpu >> > > What a lie. This is not open. I have to register. > I plan to use AHDL for my logic designs, once I figure out > the text format, so I can use my favorite text editor. Compared to most IP cores, which come as binary, it's quite open. You have access to the full source code. Registration is a relatively small price to pay, IMO. No one uses AHDL. I'm frankly surprised it's still supported at all. I STRONGLY recommend you use either Verilog or VHDL if you want any hope at all of portability. Both schematic capture and weird, proprietary languages will tie you inexorably to a single vendor, and you don't want that. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 08:35:48 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 09:35:48 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <9094BEAD-2E5F-42D9-8B85-5F6E66558E99@gmail.com> On Apr 26, 2013, at 12:24 AM, Mouse wrote: >> FPGAs (and programmable logic in general) are a lot of fun despite >> the somewhat steep learning curve. > > Well...can be. Personally, having to use an undocumented binary blob > of a compiler - which, oh, by the way, almost certainly doesn't run on > either the OS or the CPU architecture I want to run it on, even if I > were willing to run it - kills the `fun' aspect dead. Well, that's up to you. I understand your principles, and I'm certainly glad you stick with them even when it comes to personal inconvenience. They don't always line up 100% with mine, and I don't have much of a personal problem with running proprietary, closed software. Obviously, I'd PREFER it to be open, but for most cases, I'm not going to REQUIRE it. Those are my principles and not yours (not that I think you misunderstand, but I don't want anyone thinking that I think you're full of shit, because I don't). > If you find it fun despite such things? More power to you. I'll stick > to using my `fun' time for things that don't ick me out. Me too. I don't use my "fun" time writing iPhone games anymore, partly for similar reasons. >> It's really hard to find GOOD FPGA programmers out there > > Given the "use this closed proprietary compiler to generate an opaque > blob which you throw at undocumented hardware" nature of FPGA dev, I'm > not surprised. I suspect that has a lot less to do with the dearth of good FPGA devs out there than you seem to think. I think it has to do with the fact that a lot of people seem to think that FPGA firmware is software and should be programmed by software people. > I suspect I'd be decent, possibly good, at FPGA programming. But until > either someone is willing to pay me to find out or the hardware gets > documented, that will remain unknown. > > I doubt I'm _entirely_ alone in that. You're not, but it's not an entirely common thing. I think it's ridiculous that the vendors won't open up their bitstream formats so that people can do interesting things with their devices (for example, there are some REALLY COOL AI things you could do if you could dynamically program bits of it on the fly, but until someone opens up their bitstream format, that ain't happening). I blame the lawyers, mostly; I seriously doubt there's anything going on in the bitstream format that would give Altera's competitors a competitive edge in the marketplace if they studied it, but I've found it really difficult to convince IP lawyers of things like that. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 08:52:49 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 09:52:49 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <1751353619.195169.1366954468508.JavaMail.vpopmail@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1751353619.195169.1366954468508.JavaMail.vpopmail@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> Message-ID: <92233F78-57E6-4486-8D64-F147E9901E68@gmail.com> On Apr 26, 2013, at 1:34 AM, alan at alanlee.org wrote: > > I don't get your objection or what you see as an alternative to modern FPGA > vendors. FPGA hardware is well documented by all 4 major vendors at a cell, > routing, and overall architecture level. Pick up a family handbook from one of > them and I think you'll be shocked at just how much gory detail is actually in > there - detailed almost down to a gate level. HDLs isolate you from having to > deal with manually connecting gate A to gate B times thousands of nets in a > relatively portable way. Mouse's objection is based on the fact that they don't document the functions of the configuration bitstream, without which you cannot write your own synthesis software. In the case of things like PALs and GALs, the datasheets for the device specify what each bit in the bitstream does as far as turning on minterms, inverting outputs, etc. The programming algorithms for GALs at least are proprietary (I think), but they have been reverse engineered fairly well. I don't really disagree; I think the bitstream functionality (note: this is distinct from the FORMAT of the bitstream, which Xilinx discloses without describing what the actual config bits do) should be open so that people can do more interesting things with the FPGAs. The fact that it is not does not stop me from using them, though, because I do not have as many serious reservations about using closed, proprietary software. > I can't imagine you being an MPU/MCU fan as ABI licencors like ARM, MIPS, Intel, > Freescale, etc don't open source the gate level designs for 99% of the worlds > most popular CPUs either. FPGA are way more open and more documented in that > regard as you can instance your own designed CPU or a dozen open ones across > thousands of programmable devices both past and well into the future. And once > you prototype your own design, many FPGA vendors have ASIC services where you > can mask your chip in hard silicon then it really will be your own design you > can open source if you desire. The difference here is that CPU vendors don't have proprietary, hidden instruction sets (let's ignore undocumented diagnostic instructions for the moment). If you had a CPU that required you to use a proprietary compiler that generated code that you were contractually prohibited from disassembling, you might think twice about using that CPU instead of one of the many others with an otherwise open architecture (I'm not talking about the masks, I'm talking about what you run on it). Sadly, there are no FPGAs that I am aware of that are open alternatives to the status quo. > Tools from Xilinx, Altera, Lattice, and MicroSemi run on Linux as well as > Windows. Mouse does not run Linux or Windows or x86 processors, to my knowledge. Xilinx and Altera both used to run on Solaris and HP-UX for Sparc and HP-PA, respectively, but those were discontinued many years ago. For modern FPGAs, you really need to be running pretty beefy, modern iron to compile in any sort of reasonable timeframe. My 8-core Xeon with 8 GB of RAM takes 45 minutes to compile even a medium-sized Arria II (Altera's mid-level FPGA) that's half-full, so I don't think a SparcStation 20 would be an ideal candidate for running the exhaustive search algorithms necessary for building modern devices, but if you were able to write your own generation software, you could at least route it yourself (with all the hazards that entails). - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 26 08:53:15 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 09:53:15 -0400 Subject: Oracle & other dinosaurs - Re: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <201304260408.AAA28364@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <201304260408.AAA28364@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <517A86CB.5000404@telegraphics.com.au> On 26/04/13 12:08 AM, Mouse wrote: >>>>> http://opencores.org/project,mcpu >>>> What a lie. This is not open. I have to register. >>> Oh good lord, yes you have to register, get over it. > > Wow, what a cogent and convincing argument. > ... > >>> Opencores is a very well-respected organization. > > That, in itself, says nothing - it's equally true of, say, Oracle. > A very strange example for somebody who cares about open-ness to pick... They are about as viciously proprietary a dinosaur as you can get. --Toby From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 08:54:24 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 09:54:24 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517A202D.5010002@sydex.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <517A202D.5010002@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8923B0C5-F228-4BAF-AA92-05882F1C8267@gmail.com> On Apr 26, 2013, at 2:35 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I have to admit that my big hurdle isn't writing the implementation code, but rather writing GOOD verification/simulation code. It seems that no matter how thorough you think you were, there's always a gotcha somewhere that you didn't think of that rears its ugly head when you actually try to use the thing. Thank heavens that the stuff is RE-programmable... Absolutely. I wish our customers understood that writing proper testbenches should take as long as implementation. Instead, we often get MAYBE a quarter of the time, and then they complain when the resulting FPGA is buggy. Let's not talk about how much time they like to allocate for documentation. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 26 08:56:32 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 09:56:32 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <5179FA53.6010802@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <5179FA53.6010802@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <517A8790.7050904@telegraphics.com.au> On 25/04/13 11:53 PM, ben wrote: > ... > Sounds like a C64 sprite controler would be easy, if you still can > get a analog TV set up. A whole C64 has been done. http://www.syntiac.com/fpga64.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGezOeGeNek --Toby > >> >> - Dave >> > > Ben. From shumaker at att.net Fri Apr 26 09:00:20 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 07:00:20 -0700 Subject: HP41 and HP12 Calculator Manuals In-Reply-To: <5179F3EC.6070606@att.net> References: <5179F3EC.6070606@att.net> Message-ID: <517A8874.4020706@att.net> On 4/25/2013 8:26 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > I've seen occasional threads about the HP calculators here and > there... so I suspect these original docs might be of value to > someone... > > HP41C/41CV Owner's Handbook and Programming Guide > HP41C/41CV Operating Manual - A Guide for the Experienced User > HP41C Surveying Pac Manual > > HP12C Owners Handbook and Problem Solving Guide. > > acquired for a very meager sum at an estate sale so... > free for shipping from 95006 > > > steve > all the HP manuals have been spoken for! Steve From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 09:19:35 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 10:19:35 -0400 Subject: Oracle & other dinosaurs - Re: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517A86CB.5000404@telegraphics.com.au> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <201304260408.AAA28364@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <517A86CB.5000404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <0C034D62-AB31-40FB-9DEC-975BAA682A59@gmail.com> On Apr 26, 2013, at 9:53 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 26/04/13 12:08 AM, Mouse wrote: >>>> Opencores is a very well-respected organization. >> >> That, in itself, says nothing - it's equally true of, say, Oracle. >> > > A very strange example for somebody who cares about open-ness to pick... > > They are about as viciously proprietary a dinosaur as you can get. Ah, but they're respected. In certain (powerful) circles. I think that was probably the point; they're despicable, but respected. I don't think OpenCores is despicable; they're about as close to something like SourceForge as you get with FPGA stuff. I don't think they have a license that they require you to use for projects (or at least they didn't a few years ago), so lots of projects are GPL or BSD licensed. GPL cores, obviously, present some issues when using them in commercial products, but most of the ones I've used are BSD or similar. - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 26 10:32:02 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 09:32:02 -0600 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517A8790.7050904@telegraphics.com.au> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <5179FA53.6010802@jetnet.ab.ca> <517A8790.7050904@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <517A9DF2.9000704@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/26/2013 7:56 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 25/04/13 11:53 PM, ben wrote: >> ... >> Sounds like a C64 sprite controler would be easy, if you still can >> get a analog TV set up. > > A whole C64 has been done. > > http://www.syntiac.com/fpga64.html > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGezOeGeNek > > > --Toby > I was thinking on the DE0 hardware. Ben. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 26 10:54:24 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 11:54:24 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Mosaic_turns_20=3A_Let=27s_fire_up_?= =?windows-1252?Q?the_old_girl=2C_show_her_the_web_today_?= =?windows-1252?Q?=95_The_Register?= Message-ID: <517AA330.7020508@sbcglobal.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/26/mosaic_20_anniversary/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 26 11:24:40 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 12:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <9094BEAD-2E5F-42D9-8B85-5F6E66558E99@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <9094BEAD-2E5F-42D9-8B85-5F6E66558E99@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201304261624.MAA09619@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> It's really hard to find GOOD FPGA programmers out there >> Given [...], I'm not surprised. > I suspect that has a lot less to do with the dearth of good FPGA devs > out there than you seem to think. I think it has to do with the fact > that a lot of people seem to think that FPGA firmware is software and > should be programmed by software people. That would explain a lack of good FPGA devs tasked with writing FPGAs for companies. It would not explain a lack of good FPGA devs at all. And, to be fair, it _is_ on the `software' side of the "software is the part of a computer you can't smash with a hammer" divide. Underlying what you write, I see a position that typical software-writing mindsets turn out to be somewhere between useless and counterproductive for writing FPGAs. This does not surprise me; indeed, I'd almost expect it - I'm enough of a hardware hacker to have some idea how different hardware is from software. > I blame the lawyers, mostly; [...] I do too, mostly. I also blame the Western notion of a corporation as a legal person, albeit to a significantly lesser extent. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From alan at alanlee.org Fri Apr 26 11:34:30 2013 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 12:34:30 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <201304261624.MAA09619@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <9094BEAD-2E5F-42D9-8B85-5F6E66558E99@gmail.com> <201304261624.MAA09619@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: I would like to see someone use Icarus Verilog as a base and write a synthesizer and fitter for discrete 7400 and 4000 series logic chips. Perhaps drop out an Eagle or KiCad set of board files as a result - optimized for area or latency. If I were only retired, that would be a fun project to try myself -Alan From alan at alanlee.org Fri Apr 26 11:34:30 2013 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 12:34:30 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <201304261624.MAA09619@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <9094BEAD-2E5F-42D9-8B85-5F6E66558E99@gmail.com> <201304261624.MAA09619@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: I would like to see someone use Icarus Verilog as a base and write a synthesizer and fitter for discrete 7400 and 4000 series logic chips. Perhaps drop out an Eagle or KiCad set of board files as a result - optimized for area or latency. If I were only retired, that would be a fun project to try myself -Alan From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 26 11:45:10 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 12:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <92233F78-57E6-4486-8D64-F147E9901E68@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1751353619.195169.1366954468508.JavaMail.vpopmail@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> <92233F78-57E6-4486-8D64-F147E9901E68@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201304261645.MAA09710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I don't get your objection or what you see as an alternative to >> modern FPGA vendors. FPGA hardware is well documented by all 4 >> major vendors at a cell, routing, and overall architecture level. > Mouse's objection is based on the fact that they don't document the > functions of the configuration bitstream, without which you cannot > write your own synthesis software. Exactly. As long as I'm tied to using closed software to generate the configuration blobs, it's not acceptable to me. >> Pick up a family handbook from one of them and I think you'll be >> shocked at just how much gory detail is actually in there - detailed >> almost down to a gate level. HDLs isolate you from having to deal >> with manually connecting gate A to gate B times thousands of nets in >> a relatively portable way. I'm not against use of HDLs. I'm against _having to_ use HDLs. I'm against having to use their choice of HDL. I'm _especially_ against having to use their choice of compiler - which, as I noted a message or two ago, probably won't run on either the OS or the CPU architecture I want to run it on even if I were willing to run it. >> Tools from Xilinx, Altera, Lattice, and MicroSemi run on Linux as >> well as Windows. > Mouse does not run Linux or Windows Right. > or x86 processors, to my knowledge. Wrong. :( I do have and run some x86 machines, because those are what other people are throwing out. I don't like them; I use them in places where I am mostly isolated from them, such as backup server and house routers; my screen-and-keyboard machines are SPARCstation 20s. Most of my other architectures (68k, MIPS, ARM, PowerPC, Alpha) I have/run in order to help keep my code CPU-portable. Two others have idiosyncratic bases: VAX for the emotional attachments I have to it and Super-H because the one I have has interesting harware integrated with it which I want to play with. > Xilinx and Altera both used to run on Solaris and HP-UX for Sparc and > HP-PA, respectively, but those were discontinued many years ago. For > modern FPGAs, you really need to be running pretty beefy, modern iron > to compile in any sort of reasonable timeframe. Why? I can't see this as anything but the fault of the compiler. > My 8-core Xeon with 8 GB of RAM takes 45 minutes to compile even a > medium-sized Arria II (Altera's mid-level FPGA) that's half-full, so > I don't think a SparcStation 20 would be an ideal candidate for > running the exhaustive search algorithms necessary for building > modern devices, "Necessary"? Or "necessary to get high utilization percentages" or some such? That is, is that exhaustive search necessary for correctness or is it akin to optimization in a C compiler? I suspect there are much cheaper algorithms that would get most of the way there, wherever "there" is - but I can't experiment with that either because of the vendors' draconian IP stupidity. > but if you were able to write your own generation software, you could > at least route it yourself (with all the hazards that entails). If. Exactly. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 26 11:49:00 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 12:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Oracle & other dinosaurs - Re: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517A86CB.5000404@telegraphics.com.au> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <201304260408.AAA28364@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <517A86CB.5000404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201304261649.MAA09734@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>> Opencores is a very well-respected organization. >> That, in itself, says nothing - it's equally true of, say, Oracle. > A very strange example for somebody who cares about open-ness to pick... > They are about as viciously proprietary a dinosaur as you can get. Exactly. They are, however, well-respected (in suitable circles, which is an equally necessary caveat for any such statement). I was citing them _because_ they are, as you put it, viciously proprietary - I was trying to point out that being "a very well-respected organization" is not particularly relevant to actual openness. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 26 12:45:08 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 13:45:08 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <9094BEAD-2E5F-42D9-8B85-5F6E66558E99@gmail.com> <201304261624.MAA09619@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <517ABD24.1020402@neurotica.com> On 04/26/2013 12:34 PM, Alan Hightower wrote: > I would like to see someone use Icarus Verilog as a base and write a synthesizer and fitter for discrete 7400 and 4000 series logic chips. Perhaps drop out an Eagle or KiCad set of board files as a result - optimized for area or latency. > > If I were only retired, that would be a fun project to try myself That would be a really neat thing to do. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 26 12:59:06 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 13:59:06 -0400 Subject: Oracle & other dinosaurs - Re: Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <201304261649.MAA09734@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <201304260408.AAA28364@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <517A86CB.5000404@telegraphics.com.au> <201304261649.MAA09734@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <517AC06A.5020606@neurotica.com> On 04/26/2013 12:49 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>>> Opencores is a very well-respected organization. >>> That, in itself, says nothing - it's equally true of, say, Oracle. >> A very strange example for somebody who cares about open-ness to pick... >> They are about as viciously proprietary a dinosaur as you can get. > > Exactly. They are, however, well-respected (in suitable circles, which > is an equally necessary caveat for any such statement). I was citing > them _because_ they are, as you put it, viciously proprietary - I was > trying to point out that being "a very well-respected organization" is > not particularly relevant to actual openness. My point was, "these guys aren't assholes"...they want (but do not require, AFAIK) registration before you get their projects' stuff, but there's nothing nefarious about it. (or them) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 13:17:54 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 14:17:54 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <201304261645.MAA09710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1751353619.195169.1366954468508.JavaMail.vpopmail@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> <92233F78-57E6-4486-8D64-F147E9901E68@gmail.com> <201304261645.MAA09710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Apr 26, 2013, at 12:45 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> Tools from Xilinx, Altera, Lattice, and MicroSemi run on Linux as >>> well as Windows. >> Mouse does not run Linux or Windows > > Right. > >> or x86 processors, to my knowledge. > > Wrong. :( I do have and run some x86 machines, because those are what > other people are throwing out. I don't like them; I use them in places > where I am mostly isolated from them, such as backup server and house > routers; my screen-and-keyboard machines are SPARCstation 20s. Most of > my other architectures (68k, MIPS, ARM, PowerPC, Alpha) I have/run in > order to help keep my code CPU-portable. Two others have idiosyncratic > bases: VAX for the emotional attachments I have to it and Super-H > because the one I have has interesting harware integrated with it which > I want to play with. My bad, I thought x86 was more or less banished from your domain. :-) Is the Super-H machine you're talking about a Dreamcast? Those are pretty neat machines, though I never had one myself. People are still releasing new (good) games for them, too! >> Xilinx and Altera both used to run on Solaris and HP-UX for Sparc and >> HP-PA, respectively, but those were discontinued many years ago. For >> modern FPGAs, you really need to be running pretty beefy, modern iron >> to compile in any sort of reasonable timeframe. > > Why? I can't see this as anything but the fault of the compiler. It's the complexity of the devices. It's not like CPU code, where everything is linearly executed; it's a lot closer to a PCB auto- router because it's a 2D search space of optimal routes. Except the problem is blown up to several hundreds of thousands of pre- routed nets to select from. The actual synthesis code (taking the HDL and turning it into a device-independent intermediate netlist) takes about as long as compiling the equivalent length of C code; it's the "fitting" process (taking the intermediate netlist, placing all the nodes, then choosing routes that will meet the timing constraints) that takes so long. >> My 8-core Xeon with 8 GB of RAM takes 45 minutes to compile even a >> medium-sized Arria II (Altera's mid-level FPGA) that's half-full, so >> I don't think a SparcStation 20 would be an ideal candidate for >> running the exhaustive search algorithms necessary for building >> modern devices, > > "Necessary"? Or "necessary to get high utilization percentages" or > some such? That is, is that exhaustive search necessary for > correctness or is it akin to optimization in a C compiler? Optimization on a C compiler usually involves some comparatively simple dataflow analysis and then eliminating redundancies which are revealed by said analysis. Fitting an FPGA involves making a best guess at what the optimum placement is (sometimes with "floorplan" guidance from the designer, which can help a lot) and then making many, many passes at what the optimum routes are to meet the timing constraints specified. I don't know what the exact algorithms are, since they're considered trade secrets, but I know the way at least Xilinx's software iterates looks close to a genetic algorithm (it keeps the most successful pass so far and varies it until it either closes timing or gives up). How long it takes obviously depends on the complexity of the design. If you just throw a 16-bit counter design in there, or a moderately complex design with a very slow clock, it's going to take a minute and a half to compile even on the biggest FPGA out there because it doesn't have to make many tries before it meets timing. But if you crank the clock in the timing model up to 1 GHz, it's going to try a whole lot more potential routes before it throws its hands up in disgust (within reason; if you did it with the 16-bit counter, it will very quickly converge on a "this is as fast as she goes, Cap'n" value anyway). > I suspect there are much cheaper algorithms that would get most of the > way there, wherever "there" is - but I can't experiment with that > either because of the vendors' draconian IP stupidity. Maybe. CAD algorithm design is a huge and active area of academic research, because there's a lot of money to be made if you can develop an algorithm that closes faster and gives higher maximum frequencies. I agree that it's incredibly dumb that the bitstream semantics are hidden. There's always an opportunity to reverse-engineer from subtly different builds, but I do think the EULAs probably prohibit that... if you did it for your own edification, though, no one would know. >> but if you were able to write your own generation software, you could >> at least route it yourself (with all the hazards that entails). > > If. Exactly. Alas. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 26 13:21:31 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 14:21:31 -0400 Subject: Oracle & other dinosaurs - Re: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <201304261649.MAA09734@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <201304260408.AAA28364@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <517A86CB.5000404@telegraphics.com.au> <201304261649.MAA09734@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <517AC5AB.9000701@telegraphics.com.au> On 26/04/13 12:49 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>>> Opencores is a very well-respected organization. >>> That, in itself, says nothing - it's equally true of, say, Oracle. >> A very strange example for somebody who cares about open-ness to pick... >> They are about as viciously proprietary a dinosaur as you can get. > > Exactly. They are, however, well-respected (in suitable circles, which > is an equally necessary caveat for any such statement). I was citing > them _because_ they are, as you put it, viciously proprietary - I was > trying to point out that being "a very well-respected organization" is > not particularly relevant to actual openness. I see your intention now... Thanks for clarifying. --Toby > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From js at cimmeri.com Fri Apr 26 13:55:37 2013 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 13:55:37 -0500 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <517ACDA9.5070208@cimmeri.com> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > Re: [cctalk] Re: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) > From: > Dave McGuire > Date: > Fri, 26 Apr 2013 00:24:39 -0400 > To: > General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > To: > General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > "OH MY GOD I HAVE TO TYPE SOMETHING TO GET FREE STUFF, HURRRR!" > > So don't go get the free stuff, then. Good heavens. Some people get WAY > too uppity about friggin' NOTHING. > > Hence: "Get over it". > > -Dave > "Some people get WAY too uppity about friggin' NOTHING." Look who's talkin', Dave. Very Frequently! Personally, I've learned a lot from all the highly intelligent answers people have given resulting from supposedly stupid questions (such as those by "MG" which I was in no position to judge), or other inane remarks. Truly inane -- especially singular -- remarks, such as you will undoubtably claim these of mine to be, can simply be ignored rather than be pontificated on in any or every single instance. - John From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 26 14:01:51 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1751353619.195169.1366954468508.JavaMail.vpopmail@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> <92233F78-57E6-4486-8D64-F147E9901E68@gmail.com> <201304261645.MAA09710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201304261901.PAA10392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Two others have idiosyncratic bases: VAX for the emotional >> attachments I have to it and Super-H because the one I have has >> interesting harware integrated with it which I want to play with. > Is the Super-H machine you're talking about a Dreamcast? It is. :-) It's a really interesting machine, mostly for the "we're going to make these tradeoffs in different ways from most people" factor. (It's also the closest thing I have to serious 3D rendering hardware that I actually have a hope of figuring out how to use. I'm partway there; I've managed to get minimal 3D scenes - a spinning textured cube - working....) > [I]t's the "fitting" process (taking the intermediate netlist, > placing all the nodes, then choosing routes that will meet the timing > constraints) that takes so long. >> I suspect there are much cheaper algorithms [...] > Maybe. CAD algorithm design is a huge and active area of academic > research, because there's a lot of money to be made if you can > develop an algorithm that closes faster and gives higher maximum > frequencies. That's industrial research. Academic research is done to advance the state of the art, not because it will help someone make money. (A lot of supposedly-academic institutions have started doing industrial research and calling it academic, true. Calling it academic doesn't make it academic, though.) > There's always an opportunity to reverse-engineer from subtly > different builds, but I do think the EULAs probably prohibit that... > if you did it for your own edification, though, no one would know. Sure, but that doesn't make it any less wrong. Like a lot of licensing, it most hampers the people who are least problematic. But I'm preaching to the choir, methinks.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 26 14:05:42 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:05:42 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517ACDA9.5070208@cimmeri.com> References: <517ACDA9.5070208@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <517AD006.1030802@neurotica.com> On 04/26/2013 02:55 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> "OH MY GOD I HAVE TO TYPE SOMETHING TO GET FREE STUFF, HURRRR!" >> >> So don't go get the free stuff, then. Good heavens. Some people get WAY >> too uppity about friggin' NOTHING. >> >> Hence: "Get over it". > > "Some people get WAY too uppity about friggin' NOTHING." > > Look who's talkin', Dave. Very Frequently! > > Personally, I've learned a lot from all the highly intelligent answers people > have given resulting from supposedly stupid questions (such as those by "MG" > which I was in no position to judge), or other inane remarks. Truly inane > -- especially singular -- remarks, such as you will undoubtably claim these > of mine to be, can simply be ignored rather than be pontificated on in any or > every single instance. Oh, here we go. Haven't you gotten thrown off of enough mailing lists? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 15:17:58 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 21:17:58 +0100 Subject: Manual Wanted for Epson Pen Plotter. Message-ID: <517AE0F6.4080408@gmail.com> Folks I just purchased this Epson HI-80 plotter and whilst I can find a little bit about it on the net, I can't find a manual any where. Has any one got one lurking they would be willing to copy for me? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EPSON-HI-80-VINTAGE-COLOUR-PLOTTER-A4-/261202390341 Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 26 18:42:35 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 17:42:35 -0600 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/25/2013 9:49 PM, David Riley wrote: > When we see any of our customers doing FPGA design by schematic entry, > it's usually a sign that something is dreadfully wrong with their > engineering department, because it's akin to trying to build a rocket > out of bubble gum and paperclips (at least with what modern FPGAs are > purposed for). Just don't do it. Learn Verilog or VHDL, or better > yet both. They will take you far. Well I have been digging for information on using the DE0 board on the net. It seems to be TWO types of information. A) Use schematic entry for the push button switches. B) Use the latest bells and whistles to have everything auto compiled for you. What I am looking for is 1) Generic SDRAM interface with a 25 Mhz clock. 2) A Industry Standard Uart interface. 3) Generic flash controller interface. I don't see that around. Also a good generic POWER up reset circuit would be handy. > > - Dave > Ben. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Apr 26 18:45:46 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 18:45:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Manual Wanted for Epson Pen Plotter. In-Reply-To: <517AE0F6.4080408@gmail.com> References: <517AE0F6.4080408@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Apr 2013, Dave wrote: > I just purchased this Epson HI-80 plotter and whilst I can find a little > bit about it on the net, I can't find a manual any where. Has any one > got one lurking they would be willing to copy for me? Epson has a large archive of stuff on their ftp server at ftp://ftp.epson.com/ and there is always a chance that there may be a manual for it buried there somewhere. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a proper index of the ftp server so it has been a challenge finding documentation for my various Epson disk drives and printers. From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 18:54:53 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 19:54:53 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Apr 26, 2013, at 7:42 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/25/2013 9:49 PM, David Riley wrote: > >> When we see any of our customers doing FPGA design by schematic entry, >> it's usually a sign that something is dreadfully wrong with their >> engineering department, because it's akin to trying to build a rocket >> out of bubble gum and paperclips (at least with what modern FPGAs are >> purposed for). Just don't do it. Learn Verilog or VHDL, or better >> yet both. They will take you far. > > Well I have been digging for information on using the DE0 board > on the net. It seems to be TWO types of information. A) Use schematic > entry for the push button switches. B) Use the latest bells and whistles > to have everything auto compiled for you. Well, that's one thing. Most of Altera's examples use their schematic entry tool to instantiate a bunch of big black boxes that contain all the bells and whistles (an SDRAM controller is a fairly complex thing, ESPECIALLY DDR ones). I wish they wouldn't do that; it's laziness on their part and HDL examples would be closer to what a lot of people use in the real world. For things like SDRAM controllers, DDR or not, you'll usually use one of their IP cores. You should; they're free, and a controller like that takes a LONG time to implement and debug (if you thought a DRAM controller in 7400 parts was complex, just wait until you see the timing calibration stuff that goes into DDR2 and DDR3). > What I am looking for is 1) Generic SDRAM interface with a 25 Mhz clock. > 2) A Industry Standard Uart interface. 3) Generic flash controller interface. I don't see that around. Also a good generic POWER up reset > circuit would be handy. You might actually want to look into Qsys, which is Altera's GUI- driven system generation interface. That actually lets you get up and going rather quickly with all the interfaces you mentioned above. When you write your own logic (e.g. a CPU core), it's not *too* hard to bolt it on using Qsys, which does all the drudgery of making the buses and address decoders for you. Of course, it doesn't: 1) Give you a sense of how much work or logic goes into designing bus multiplexers or address decoders 2) Show you how much complexity you add to address decoders by making ALL YOUR REGISTERS FOR EVERYTHING go in one contiguous address space with no gaps (yes, I had coworkers who did this in HDL as well) It's also not portable. But it's not a terrible start if you want to just get up and running with an FPGA and a UART. I'll be glad to send you a simple UART I made in Verilog that I reuse in a lot of my projects. It's not fancy, and it doesn't conform to any standard bus, but it's easy to glue to things. I can also send you some simple projects for the DE1 board, which should make for a nice exercise to port to the DE0 board (which is quite similar in a lot of ways). I also have a peek/poke unit entirely in Verilog using that same UART to do simple reads and writes over Wishbone, which is the bus used by a lot of OpenCores projects (and is nearly identical to Altera's Avalon bus). - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 26 18:59:22 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 19:59:22 -0400 Subject: subject tagging, was Re: Who is the moderator of this list? In-Reply-To: <51754204.2020807@sbcglobal.net> References: <024f01ce3bfa$2ce019b0$86a04d10$@ntlworld.com> <1171339617-1366287251-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-242002992-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <201304181705.NAA15661@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <02f901ce3c77$06763cf0$1362b6d0$@ntlworld.com> <40B65ACE-756D-4A41-AC02-5EF2C1F9DD78@gewt.net> <04B10AE3-A359-41D4-A826-C5CCEC410AA7@gmail.com> <51716C13.5020103@neurotica.com> <668B9300-5ECD-4E09-909B-0FA40C8E4492@gewt.net> <20130419125623.C97347@shell.lmi.net> <5171BBBC.8080608@sbcglobal.net> <5171DB75.9080900@neurotica.com> <5173EAAA.2020003@sbcglobal.net> <5173FFA4.3010304@neurotica.com> <51754204.2020807@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <517B14DA.3070801@neurotica.com> On 04/22/2013 09:58 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Despite the fact that I've explained it, what, three times in this thread >> alone? Not agreeing with my reasoning (and my personal preferences) is not a >> valid reason to say that there is no other reason. Feel free to not like the >> same things I like. That doesn't bother me at all with very personal stuff >> like email presentation preferences. But don't say my preference is invalid >> just because you do not share it. > > Actually, if you did explain your reason, I apologize. I missed it. And I > never said your reason was invalid, I just wanted to know what it was As others have suggested, I believe it was just due to list mail delivery lag. >> Instead, I go through it chronologically, and messages from every other >> list I'm on (seriously, all of them!) use subject tagging. THIS list is the >> weird one that stands out. (well, I guess I mean *doesn't* stand out ;)) > > So, you do use it for sorting, in a method different from what others > were thinking. Well, yes I suppose one could look at it that way. But specifically not to allow my mail client to perform said sorting. You get the idea. > It doesn't break the mail client's sorting; that does just fine. It' the > sorting in my head. I go through the list, looking a specific subjects. And > after seeing your reasoning, I don't like the tag, for sorting, in the same > way you _do_ like it. > Kind of ironic, wouldn't you say? ;) Yep. :) > With that being said, it's safe to say this thread is toast, and we're > good...? > [offering hand-shake to Mr. McGuire...] Of course. (sorry, this got buried in my inbox) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 26 19:45:12 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 18:45:12 -0600 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/26/2013 5:54 PM, David Riley wrote: > > For things like SDRAM controllers, DDR or not, you'll usually use one > of their IP cores. You should; they're free, and a controller like > that takes a LONG time to implement and debug (if you thought a DRAM > controller in 7400 parts was complex, just wait until you see the > timing calibration stuff that goes into DDR2 and DDR3). What ip core to use, is my problem. I guess I could order the DE1 board to replace the DE0. What was used in the PDP 11 setup I wonder. > You might actually want to look into Qsys, which is Altera's GUI- > driven system generation interface. That actually lets you get up > and going rather quickly with all the interfaces you mentioned > above. When you write your own logic (e.g. a CPU core), it's not > *too* hard to bolt it on using Qsys, which does all the drudgery > of making the buses and address decoders for you. I am not sure what I can use nowdays, everthing is $$$ for the IP stuff. > It's also not portable. But it's not a terrible start if you > want to just get up and running with an FPGA and a UART. > > I'll be glad to send you a simple UART I made in Verilog that I > reuse in a lot of my projects. It's not fancy, and it doesn't > conform to any standard bus, but it's easy to glue to things. I > can also send you some simple projects for the DE1 board, which > should make for a nice exercise to port to the DE0 board (which > is quite similar in a lot of ways). I also have a peek/poke > unit entirely in Verilog using that same UART to do simple reads > and writes over Wishbone, which is the bus used by a lot of > OpenCores projects (and is nearly identical to Altera's Avalon > bus). Is the static ram on the DE1 board easy to use? > - Dave > Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 26 19:51:05 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 20:51:05 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> On 04/26/2013 08:45 PM, ben wrote: >> You might actually want to look into Qsys, which is Altera's GUI- >> driven system generation interface. That actually lets you get up >> and going rather quickly with all the interfaces you mentioned >> above. When you write your own logic (e.g. a CPU core), it's not >> *too* hard to bolt it on using Qsys, which does all the drudgery >> of making the buses and address decoders for you. > > I am not sure what I can use nowdays, everthing is $$$ for the IP > stuff. [head explodes] -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wilson at dbit.com Fri Apr 26 20:18:17 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 21:18:17 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <201304261645.MAA09710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1751353619.195169.1366954468508.JavaMail.vpopmail@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> <92233F78-57E6-4486-8D64-F147E9901E68@gmail.com> <201304261645.MAA09710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130427011817.GA5031@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 12:45:10PM -0400, Mouse wrote: >I'm _especially_ against >having to use their choice of compiler - which, as I noted a message or >two ago, probably won't run on either the OS or the CPU architecture I >want to run it on even if I were willing to run it. I certainly get that. For me it's a matter of categories. I can't get the source code or schematics for my microwave oven, but while I'd certainly enjoy having them, it's fiiiine. It's just an appliance. It's irritating being denied full access to my own property, but I bought it to heat food, which it does. Same with my car's ECU, my musical tuner, digital watch, and don't get me started on the (*&^!@#*% TiVo which has had the wrong DST rules for several years now because I won't pay the protection fees for a piece of hardware I bought free and clear (for $400 for chrissake!). But at the same time, I've got a multi-lifetime backlog of stuff that IS open to hackery, and new interests cropping up all the time, and it's obvious I'll never get around to even 1% of it. So I gave up ages ago -- someone else can be in charge of web browsers and traffic lights and printers and PCB autorouters and all the infinite stuff that I wouldn't have the energy for even if well commented source code (plus build tools) were served up on a platter. Reinventing the wheels that DO interest me is already a full-time job. But I guess everyone draws the line in a different place... John Wilson D Bit From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 26 20:20:57 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 19:20:57 -0600 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <517B27F9.80504@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/26/2013 6:51 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/26/2013 08:45 PM, ben wrote: >>> You might actually want to look into Qsys, which is Altera's GUI- >>> driven system generation interface. That actually lets you get up >>> and going rather quickly with all the interfaces you mentioned >>> above. When you write your own logic (e.g. a CPU core), it's not >>> *too* hard to bolt it on using Qsys, which does all the drudgery >>> of making the buses and address decoders for you. >> >> I am not sure what I can use nowdays, everthing is $$$ for the IP >> stuff. [head explodes] My head is doing that. Digging on the net is not providing useful information. I have the web edition of software, so having demo IP stuff is doing me no good. Ben. I am trying to find info on the altera forum, most of the messages all say use Qsys stuff. That would be ok but Altera had promotional stuff for the other FPGA hardware. I go nag at them, and then go shopping for food. From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 20:28:36 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 21:28:36 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9F280FE1-6408-4CC5-8C11-0D341B72619A@gmail.com> On Apr 26, 2013, at 8:45 PM, ben wrote: > On 4/26/2013 5:54 PM, David Riley wrote: > >> >> For things like SDRAM controllers, DDR or not, you'll usually use one >> of their IP cores. You should; they're free, and a controller like >> that takes a LONG time to implement and debug (if you thought a DRAM >> controller in 7400 parts was complex, just wait until you see the >> timing calibration stuff that goes into DDR2 and DDR3). > > What ip core to use, is my problem. Altera provides a free one that's pretty easy to drop in using Qsys, if memory serves. You'd have to expend a little more effort to glue it to something else, especially if you wanted it to behave like an SRAM (which is something very difficult to do with SDRAM because of the refresh cycle, which you have to wait for but not all the time). > I guess I could order the DE1 board to replace the DE0. > What was used in the PDP 11 setup I wonder. You *could*, but I'm not sure why you would. The DE0 is actually superior to the DE1 in most respects; the DE1 is the old Cyclone II eval board that the DE0 replaced. Sytse has builds for a bunch of boards up, including the DE0, DE0-Nano and DE1. The picture from VCF East last year on Syste's site actually shows it running on a DE0 in front of Dave McGuire's PDP-11/70 (if I recall, it was Sridhar running the FPGA demo, but my memory is a bit fuzzy; that was a busy day!). The DE1 does have SRAM, though, which the DE0 doesn't. So there's that. >> You might actually want to look into Qsys, which is Altera's GUI- >> driven system generation interface. That actually lets you get up >> and going rather quickly with all the interfaces you mentioned >> above. When you write your own logic (e.g. a CPU core), it's not >> *too* hard to bolt it on using Qsys, which does all the drudgery >> of making the buses and address decoders for you. > > I am not sure what I can use nowdays, everthing is $$$ for the IP > stuff. Actually, both FPGA companies provide a lot of the simpler or more necessary cores (UARTs, SPI/I2C controllers, SDRAM controllers) for free. It sells more FPGAs and software that way. I could be a little off-base about those being free with the "Web Edition" software (the free download version), but last I recall, they were. >> It's also not portable. But it's not a terrible start if you >> want to just get up and running with an FPGA and a UART. >> >> I'll be glad to send you a simple UART I made in Verilog that I >> reuse in a lot of my projects. It's not fancy, and it doesn't >> conform to any standard bus, but it's easy to glue to things. I >> can also send you some simple projects for the DE1 board, which >> should make for a nice exercise to port to the DE0 board (which >> is quite similar in a lot of ways). I also have a peek/poke >> unit entirely in Verilog using that same UART to do simple reads >> and writes over Wishbone, which is the bus used by a lot of >> OpenCores projects (and is nearly identical to Altera's Avalon >> bus). > > Is the static ram on the DE1 board easy to use? As easy as SRAM usually is. The thing you have to consider with SRAM on an FPGA is that the latencies in and out of the FPGA can throw your timing off (you have to worry about the same things with gates in a 74xx-based PCB design, but you're already worrying about it for everything else). More or less, though, it's just SRAM, so if you throw an address at it, you get data back eventually. It's just the "eventually" part that can get you. The SRAM isn't big, but neither is the address space of a PDP-11 compared to modern machines. It's even 16 bits wide, which is pretty handy for a PDP-11. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 20:31:17 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 21:31:17 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <20130427011817.GA5031@dbit.dbit.com> References: <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1751353619.195169.1366954468508.JavaMail.vpopmail@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> <92233F78-57E6-4486-8D64-F147E9901E68@gmail.com> <201304261645.MAA09710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130427011817.GA5031@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Apr 26, 2013, at 9:18 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 12:45:10PM -0400, Mouse wrote: >> I'm _especially_ against >> having to use their choice of compiler - which, as I noted a message or >> two ago, probably won't run on either the OS or the CPU architecture I >> want to run it on even if I were willing to run it. > > I certainly get that. For me it's a matter of categories. I can't get the > source code or schematics for my microwave oven, but while I'd certainly enjoy > having them, it's fiiiine. It's just an appliance. It's irritating being > denied full access to my own property, but I bought it to heat food, which it > does. Same with my car's ECU, my musical tuner, digital watch, and don't get > me started on the (*&^!@#*% TiVo which has had the wrong DST rules for several > years now because I won't pay the protection fees for a piece of hardware I > bought free and clear (for $400 for chrissake!). Oh man. My car's GPS has that same problem, and they only changed the rules a year after I got it. Honda's response is, "You can just change the clock manually like all the other clocks in your house", which has two problems: 1) The other clocks in my house don't also set themselves forward or backwards at the WRONG time automatically, so I don't have to manually change them FOUR times a year. 2) The other clocks in my house are not part of a system I paid several hundred dollars for that I can't remove from the house. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 26 22:21:20 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 23:21:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1751353619.195169.1366954468508.JavaMail.vpopmail@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> <92233F78-57E6-4486-8D64-F147E9901E68@gmail.com> <201304261645.MAA09710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130427011817.GA5031@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <201304270321.XAA11920@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...] which has had the wrong DST rules [...] > My car's GPS has that same problem, [...]. Honda's response is, "You > can just change the clock manually like all the other clocks in your > house", which has two problems: [...] I don't know how true it is for you, but for me, (3) half the other clocks in the house _are_ computers, which _do_ get it right without manual intervention - and on which I can install new DST rules whenever I want. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wilson at dbit.com Fri Apr 26 22:34:18 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 23:34:18 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <201304270321.XAA11920@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1751353619.195169.1366954468508.JavaMail.vpopmail@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> <92233F78-57E6-4486-8D64-F147E9901E68@gmail.com> <201304261645.MAA09710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130427011817.GA5031@dbit.dbit.com> <201304270321.XAA11920@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130427033418.GA8854@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 11:21:20PM -0400, Mouse wrote: >I don't know how true it is for you, but for me, (3) half the other >clocks in the house _are_ computers, which _do_ get it right without >manual intervention - and on which I can install new DST rules whenever >I want. Heh. My problem is that a lot of the computers are set up to multi-boot, and *each* OS wants to be in charge of resetting the battery clock, so you get another hour each time you switch OSes. Win7 in particular doesn't seem to care whether you've disabled that. So twice a year, the computers go crazy. So does the WWVB clock (another thing it'd be nice to have firmware source for -- HOW could they not have tested DST days???). And yeah the TiVo either needs to be set four times a year, or else all the programming has to be offset by an hour for a few weeks (often easier than yanking the hard drive, unless the clock has *also* gained 15 minutes, which keeps happening even though they used an RTC chip with a digital trimmer -- one more thing it'd be nice to hack, but actually that might be less hassle to do from the hardware side). John Wilson D Bit From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Fri Apr 26 23:09:32 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 21:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IE1vc2FpYyB0dXJucyAyMDogTGV0J3MgZmlyZSB1cCB0aGUgb2xkIGdp?= =?utf-8?B?cmwsIHNob3cgaGVyIHRoZSB3ZWIgdG9kYXkg4oCiIFRoZSBSZWdpc3Rlcg==?= In-Reply-To: <517AA330.7020508@sbcglobal.net> References: <517AA330.7020508@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1367035772.14021.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >________________________________ > From: Dave Woyciesjes >To: ClassicCMP >Sent: Saturday, 27 April 2013 1:54 AM >Subject: Mosaic turns 20: Let's fire up the old girl, show her the web today ? The Register > > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/26/mosaic_20_anniversary/ > another book I have to buy :) tom >-- >--- Dave Woyciesjes >--- ICQ# 905818 >--- AIM - woyciesjes >--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ >--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ >? ? ? ? ? ???Registered Linux user number 464583 > >"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." >"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." >? - from some guy on the internet. > > > > From pet4032 at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 23:24:38 2013 From: pet4032 at gmail.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 00:24:38 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> On 4/26/2013 8:51 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/26/2013 08:45 PM, ben wrote: >>> You might actually want to look into Qsys, which is Altera's GUI- >>> driven system generation interface. That actually lets you get up >>> and going rather quickly with all the interfaces you mentioned >>> above. When you write your own logic (e.g. a CPU core), it's not >>> *too* hard to bolt it on using Qsys, which does all the drudgery >>> of making the buses and address decoders for you. >> I am not sure what I can use nowdays, everthing is $$$ for the IP >> stuff. > [head explodes] > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 27 00:04:16 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 01:04:16 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> On 04/27/2013 12:24 AM, Bryan Pope wrote: >>>> You might actually want to look into Qsys, which is Altera's GUI- >>>> driven system generation interface. That actually lets you get up >>>> and going rather quickly with all the interfaces you mentioned >>>> above. When you write your own logic (e.g. a CPU core), it's not >>>> *too* hard to bolt it on using Qsys, which does all the drudgery >>>> of making the buses and address decoders for you. >>> I am not sure what I can use nowdays, everthing is $$$ for the IP >>> stuff. >> [head explodes] >> > > thankyou -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From b4 at gewt.net Sat Apr 27 00:18:51 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 05:18:51 -0000 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> On 27 Apr 2013, at 01:04, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > On 04/27/2013 12:24 AM, Bryan Pope wrote: >>>>> You might actually want to look into Qsys, which is Altera's GUI- >>>>> driven system generation interface. That actually lets you get up >>>>> and going rather quickly with all the interfaces you mentioned >>>>> above. When you write your own logic (e.g. a CPU core), it's not >>>>> *too* hard to bolt it on using Qsys, which does all the drudgery >>>>> of making the buses and address decoders for you. >>>> I am not sure what I can use nowdays, everthing is $$$ for the IP >>>> stuff. >>> [head explodes] >>> >> >> > > thank you What about the automatic industrial stapler? > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 27 00:25:35 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 01:25:35 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> Message-ID: <517B614F.6080703@neurotica.com> On 04/27/2013 01:18 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>>>>> You might actually want to look into Qsys, which is Altera's GUI- >>>>>> driven system generation interface. That actually lets you get up >>>>>> and going rather quickly with all the interfaces you mentioned >>>>>> above. When you write your own logic (e.g. a CPU core), it's not >>>>>> *too* hard to bolt it on using Qsys, which does all the drudgery >>>>>> of making the buses and address decoders for you. >>>>> I am not sure what I can use nowdays, everthing is $$$ for the IP >>>>> stuff. >>>> [head explodes] >>>> >>> >>> >> >> thank you > > What about the automatic industrial stapler? Yes, that would be must helpful, thank you. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 27 00:46:52 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 23:46:52 -0600 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> Message-ID: <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/26/2013 11:18 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > What about the automatic industrial stapler? I could use a shotgun ... Looks at the hardware, no easy way to program the SDRAM. I think I'll order the DE1 as well. >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Apr 27 01:30:00 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 02:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <20130427033418.GA8854@dbit.dbit.com> References: <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1751353619.195169.1366954468508.JavaMail.vpopmail@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> <92233F78-57E6-4486-8D64-F147E9901E68@gmail.com> <201304261645.MAA09710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130427011817.GA5031@dbit.dbit.com> <201304270321.XAA11920@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130427033418.GA8854@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <201304270630.CAA12731@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [F]or me, (3) half the other clocks in the house _are_ computers, >> which _do_ get it right without manual intervention - and on which I >> can install new DST rules whenever I want. > Heh. My problem is that a lot of the computers are set up to > multi-boot, and *each* OS wants to be in charge of resetting the > battery clock, so you get another hour each time you switch OSes. NTP is your friend. Turn on ntpdate at boot, and start ntpd with -g (or whatever the equivalents are for your OSes), and you should be fine. Or just tell all of them that the hardware clock is to be kept in UTC - of course, that assumes they're all non-broken enouigh to be capable of being told that.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From amh at POBOX.COM Fri Apr 26 11:54:47 2013 From: amh at POBOX.COM (Andrew Hoerter) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 12:54:47 -0400 Subject: Oracle & other dinosaurs - Re: [cctalk] Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <0C034D62-AB31-40FB-9DEC-975BAA682A59@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <5179C027.3050500@jetnet.ab.ca> <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <201304260408.AAA28364@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <517A86CB.5000404@telegraphics.com.au> <0C034D62-AB31-40FB-9DEC-975BAA682A59@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/26/13, David Riley wrote: > I don't think OpenCores is despicable; they're about as close to > something like SourceForge as you get with FPGA stuff. I don't > think they have a license that they require you to use for projects > (or at least they didn't a few years ago), so lots of projects are > GPL or BSD licensed. GPL cores, obviously, present some issues > when using them in commercial products, but most of the ones I've > used are BSD or similar. Perhaps GPLv3 has gone in a different direction, but in the past I had the impression that the FSF didn't care too much about embedded systems if there was no provision for the user to directly execute code on the device. So for example, the GPL would be not be invoked for your FPGA-powered toaster oven with no interface beyond the temperature knob. I dimly recall Richard Stallman himself saying something to that effect. Or is this a legal grey area and nobody wants the risk of using a GPL'ed core? -Andy From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 02:28:11 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 08:28:11 +0100 Subject: Manual Wanted for Epson Pen Plotter. In-Reply-To: References: <517AE0F6.4080408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517B7E0B.5060406@gmail.com> On 27/04/2013 00:45, Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 26 Apr 2013, Dave wrote: > >> I just purchased this Epson HI-80 plotter and whilst I can find a >> little bit about it on the net, I can't find a manual any where. Has >> any one got one lurking they would be willing to copy for me? > > Epson has a large archive of stuff on their ftp server at > ftp://ftp.epson.com/ and there is always a chance that there may be a > manual for it buried there somewhere. Unfortunately there doesn't seem > to be a proper index of the ftp server so it has been a challenge > finding documentation for my various Epson disk drives and printers. > Thanks for that pointer I have had a good search but found nothing that old. It also looks like its the same plotter as the Tektronix HC100. There are a couple of manuals for this on US E-Bay but for all of them the total price for purchase and shipping to the UK comes out at three times the cost of the plotter, which is a lot to pay when I don't even know if the command set is the same... Dave G4UGM From b4 at gewt.net Sat Apr 27 02:51:45 2013 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:51:45 -0000 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) References: <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1751353619.195169.1366954468508.JavaMail.vpopmail@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> <92233F78-57E6-4486-8D64-F147E9901E68@gmail.com> <201304261645.MAA09710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130427011817.GA5031@dbit.dbit.com> <201304270321.XAA11920@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130427033418.GA8854@dbit.dbit.com> <201304270630.CAA12731@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 27 Apr 2013, at 02:30, "Mouse" wrote: > >>> [F]or me, (3) half the other clocks in the house _are_ computers, >>> which _do_ get it right without manual intervention - and on which I >>> can install new DST rules whenever I want. >> Heh. My problem is that a lot of the computers are set up to >> multi-boot, and *each* OS wants to be in charge of resetting the >> battery clock, so you get another hour each time you switch OSes. > > NTP is your friend. Turn on ntpdate at boot, and start ntpd with -g > (or whatever the equivalents are for your OSes), and you should be > fine. Or just tell all of them that the hardware clock is to be kept > in UTC - of course, that assumes they're all non-broken enouigh to be > capable of being told that?. NTP doesn't help if your clock and all systems stop though. ;) That's happened to me a couple times... > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 03:37:07 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 09:37:07 +0100 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: <5179D316.9000803@neurotica.com> <5179D855.1000408@jwsss.com> <31F2BBA6-0BB2-498A-82CE-89A8E49F80B8@gmail.com> <201304260424.AAA28440@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1751353619.195169.1366954468508.JavaMail.vpopmail@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> <92233F78-57E6-4486-8D64-F147E9901E68@gmail.com> <201304261645.MAA09710@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130427011817.GA5031@dbit.dbit.com> <201304270321.XAA11920@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20130427033418.GA8854@dbit.dbit.com> <201304270630.CAA12731@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <517B8E33.4090201@gmail.com> On 27/04/2013 08:51, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > On 27 Apr 2013, at 02:30, "Mouse" wrote: > >>>> [F]or me, (3) half the other clocks in the house _are_ computers, >>>> which _do_ get it right without manual intervention - and on which I >>>> can install new DST rules whenever I want. These days I struggle to find something that needs a manual update. The clock in my TV , PVR and bedside radio (not a Tivo) all seem to update from the digital signals. The clock in the radio shack is set to Zulu time so that works fine (and it syncs from DCF77 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77) so the clock must know how to remove the DST offset when its added. The Android Mobile which frequently gets used as a SatNav updates automatically as well.... I think I Central Heating still needs a manual update, as does by wrist watch , which I kind of wear as habit as I tend to check the time on the Android Phone. I guess I should include my Accutron Tuning Fork watches but the batteries in those only seem to last a couple of months so not a real issue.... >>> Heh. My problem is that a lot of the computers are set up to >>> multi-boot, and *each* OS wants to be in charge of resetting the >>> battery clock, so you get another hour each time you switch OSes. >> NTP is your friend. Turn on ntpdate at boot, and start ntpd with -g >> (or whatever the equivalents are for your OSes), and you should be >> fine. Or just tell all of them that the hardware clock is to be kept >> in UTC - of course, that assumes they're all non-broken enouigh to be >> capable of being told that?. > NTP doesn't help if your clock and all systems stop though. ;) > > That's happened to me a couple times... > >> /~\ The ASCII Mouse >> \ / Ribbon Campaign >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org >> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 04:49:16 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:49:16 +0100 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> On 27/04/2013 06:46, ben wrote: > On 4/26/2013 11:18 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > >> >> What about the automatic industrial stapler? > > I could use a shotgun ... Looks at the hardware, > no easy way to program the SDRAM. I think I'll order > the DE1 as well. > Sorry I don't spot. Thats why I bought the Nexys2 , becaise it as (pseudo) Static Ram... > >>> >>> -- >>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>> New Kensington, PA >> >> >> > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 27 09:48:11 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 08:48:11 -0600 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/27/2013 3:49 AM, Dave wrote: > On 27/04/2013 06:46, ben wrote: >> On 4/26/2013 11:18 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> >>> >>> What about the automatic industrial stapler? >> >> I could use a shotgun ... Looks at the hardware, >> no easy way to program the SDRAM. I think I'll order >> the DE1 as well. >> > Sorry I don't spot. Thats why I bought the Nexys2 , becaise it as > (pseudo) Static Ram... > I don't do the other brand. -:) I am finding out that you get what you pay for ... modern junk with no docs. I want to know basic things, I don't like the modern bloat needed just to work. What happens on Power up? What happens if I want 5 volt I/O? What clock speed is the FPGA ? Is the PLL driving SDRAM pins or something else? What is the priority of logic expressions in hardware description language? Ben. PS. Rather than spending $1000 on audio cables, I plan to pay $750 for new state of the art MESH 45 triodes. From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 10:47:07 2013 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:47:07 -0500 Subject: IBM Slides on eBay Message-ID: Did anyone on the list end up the winner on this set of slides? http://www.ebay.com/itm/190828071637? If so, I am probably not alone in hoping to see these scanned and posted online someday. -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 10:50:06 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:50:06 +0100 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <517BF3AE.5060504@gmail.com> On 27/04/2013 15:48, ben wrote: > On 4/27/2013 3:49 AM, Dave wrote: >> On 27/04/2013 06:46, ben wrote: >>> On 4/26/2013 11:18 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> What about the automatic industrial stapler? >>> >>> I could use a shotgun ... Looks at the hardware, >>> no easy way to program the SDRAM. I think I'll order >>> the DE1 as well. >>> >> Sorry I don't spot. Thats why I bought the Nexys2 , becaise it as >> (pseudo) Static Ram... > > > > I don't do the other brand. -:) > I am finding out that you get what you pay for ... modern junk with no > docs. I want to know basic things, I don't like the modern bloat needed > just to work. What happens on Power up? What happens if I want 5 volt > I/O? What clock speed is the FPGA ? Is the PLL driving SDRAM pins or > something else? All these are documented in the data sheet for the 3e. I would expect the DE0 to be the same..... > What is the priority of logic expressions in hardware description > language? I always use explicit brackets so I can see at a glance. Its too easy to make a mistake other wise. This could be that I was damaged as a youth as the first "high Level Language" I was taught was Fortran II and that required explicit conversion between integer and real.... > Ben. > PS. Rather than spending $1000 on audio cables, I plan to pay > $750 for new state of the art MESH 45 triodes. > > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 11:12:10 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 12:12:10 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Apr 27, 2013, at 10:48 AM, ben wrote: > I don't do the other brand. -:) I do both. They're fine. Xilinx used to be lagging way behind on device features (but way ahead in market share), but they've really caught up with Altera with the 7-series. The I/O bank structure is SO much easier to plan around now. I find myself recommending Xilinx devices for the first time in five years now. > I am finding out that you get what you pay for ... modern junk with no docs. Sorry? There are PLENTY of docs. > I want to know basic things, I don't like the modern bloat needed > just to work. What happens on Power up? What happens if I want 5 volt I/O? What clock speed is the FPGA ? Is the PLL driving SDRAM pins or something else? All of these are described in the device handbook. It's here: http://www.altera.com/literature/hb/cyc3/cyclone3_handbook.pdf > What is the priority of logic expressions in hardware description language? In Verilog or VHDL, it's pretty explicit and very C-like. If you want to see how the synthesizer turns various language constructs into hardware, see the synthesis manual: http://www.altera.com/literature/hb/qts/qts_qii51008.pdf - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Apr 27 12:45:10 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 13:45:10 -0400 Subject: TerasIC/Altera Cyclone - Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <517C0EA6.3060005@telegraphics.com.au> Just wanted to say this thread is great! I have a TerasIC Cyclone I board here that I am keen to play with, so all information about Altera and products is very helpful. I didn't know their Linux stuff was on par with Windows; last time I used Quartus it was on Windows XP (and Linux/WINE, even - with minor hiccups). The FPGA on my board is EP1C6Q240C8. --Toby From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 13:02:52 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 19:02:52 +0100 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <517C12CC.8030901@gmail.com> On 27/04/2013 17:12, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 27, 2013, at 10:48 AM, ben wrote: > >> I don't do the other brand. -:) > I do both. They're fine. Xilinx used to be lagging way behind > on device features (but way ahead in market share), but they've > really caught up with Altera with the 7-series. The I/O bank > structure is SO much easier to plan around now. I find myself > recommending Xilinx devices for the first time in five years > now. > >> I am finding out that you get what you pay for ... modern junk with no docs. > Sorry? There are PLENTY of docs. > >> I want to know basic things, I don't like the modern bloat needed >> just to work. What happens on Power up? What happens if I want 5 volt I/O? What clock speed is the FPGA ? Is the PLL driving SDRAM pins or something else? > All of these are described in the device handbook. It's here: > > http://www.altera.com/literature/hb/cyc3/cyclone3_handbook.pdf > >> What is the priority of logic expressions in hardware description language? > In Verilog or VHDL, it's pretty explicit and very C-like. > > If you want to see how the synthesizer turns various language > constructs into hardware, see the synthesis manual: > > http://www.altera.com/literature/hb/qts/qts_qii51008.pdf Dave I assume the tool chain is like the Xilynx one. So you can see the generated routing on the chip and even edit it if desired. These are absolutely amazing tools. I am sure its going to take me a long time to get really up-to-speed on them, but already I can see a huge potential for doing those sort of jobs where you just need several things to happen at once, or where a Pic or Arduino just isn't fas enough... Dave G4UGM > > - Dave > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 14:05:38 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 15:05:38 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517C12CC.8030901@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> <517C12CC.8030901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> On Apr 27, 2013, at 2:02 PM, Dave wrote: > I assume the tool chain is like the Xilynx one. So you can see the generated routing on the chip and even edit it if desired. These are absolutely amazing tools. I am sure its going to take me a long time to get really up-to-speed on them, but already I can see a huge potential for doing those sort of jobs where you just need several things to happen at once, or where a Pic or Arduino just isn't fas enough... It's quite similar, which makes sense, since they do almost the same thing. :-) I've never had cause to manually re-route anything, though, and I've been at this a while. Programmable logic has HUGE advantages in implementing any kind of synthesized hardware like CPUs, VGA controllers, PCI interfaces, etc. They're really terrible tasks for CPUs; I'm constantly baffled at projects like the SwinSID, which use the GPIO port on a microcontroller to implement the 6502 bus interface. Such a waste of cycles, even if it is interrupt-driven! Conversely, though, there are plenty of things that a CPU is much more suitable for, specifically most things that are highly sequential. You wouldn't want to make a web server on an FPGA, for example, because you would need to make lots of complex state machines that would be really hard to debug. Fortunately, it's usually pretty easy to just bolt on a microcontroller (or build one in FPGA logic, because a CPU is really just a specialized state machine with some logic and registers bolted on). Both Xilinx and Altera have soft-core CPUs that are free to use and toolchains for them that aren't COMPLETE nightmares. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 14:10:52 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 15:10:52 -0400 Subject: TerasIC/Altera Cyclone - Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517C0EA6.3060005@telegraphics.com.au> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> <517C0EA6.3060005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Apr 27, 2013, at 1:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Just wanted to say this thread is great! I have a TerasIC Cyclone I board here that I am keen to play with, so all information about Altera and products is very helpful. > > I didn't know their Linux stuff was on par with Windows; last time I used Quartus it was on Windows XP (and Linux/WINE, even - with minor hiccups). Up until version 11, Quartus on Linux was AWFUL, at least if you were trying to run the GUI (the command-line tools were always more or less OK). Instead of doing a real port, they used a Win32 compatibility library called MainWin which was flaky and unreliable except on the very specific platforms they tested on (SuSE and RedHat Enterprise). It was a pile of garbage, and running the Windows version under WINE generally worked better. With 11, they moved the whole GUI to Qt for both platforms, which has been a massive improvement (there have been a few growing pains; the first version of the editor didn't even have a way to turn on the column numbering, so I had to use an external editor to make sure I wasn't going over 80 cols). Everything works great under Linux now. > The FPGA on my board is EP1C6Q240C8. Yeah, that's... that's pretty old by now. And REALLY small. You could still run something small under that, but you might want to consider getting one of the cheaper new boards (the DE1, while it's a Cyclone II, is still pretty decent especially considering the interfaces and complement of memories on the board, and it's only $150 in the US). - Dave From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 14:11:41 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 15:11:41 -0400 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27 April 2013 10:49, Paul Birkel wrote: > All; > > I'm curious as to what other manufacturers/systems supported the use of > block-oriented magnetic tape media along the lines of the DECtape (TU56) > and DECassette (TU60) drives. > Well, there is LINCtape, which DECtape is a modified derivative of (and which DEC even made drives of, see the DEC made LINCs, LINC-8 and PDP-12). There's also DECtape II (TU58), which is the thing that everyone and their mother has an emulator for (it's the one that plugs into a serial port, and holds 256KB on a tape). Correct me if I'm wrong, but TU60 DECassette isn't a block format media like the DECtape or DECtape II. > In particular, what about the use of standard 1/2" tape media under such > circumstances? A wear-n-tear problem given the multi-pass nature of this > use (especially if being used to store temp-files for the OS), but if that > scenario were avoided ... > That's why DECtape (the original) was rather thick and had much redundancy of its tracks (two copies of all the tracks), same as LINCtape did it; though I do believe that the LINCtape did have the format different, LINCtape also ran "backwards" to DECtape. > I'd like to play around with some, but acquiring either a DECtape or > DECassette unit looks to be somewhere between impossible and merely > seriously unaffordable -- not to mention obtaining media for use with > either. So I'm thinking about whether there are possibly other drives out > there for which I might construct a suitable controller to mediate between > the raw(er) mechanism and the OS. > TU58 DECtape II, all it needs is a serial port; it's compact, and the protocol of the controllers is relatively well documented. You can find all sorts of implementations of DECtape II; ranging from the real thing, to the "we made a small bit of IC and flash look like a pair of DECtape IIs", to "what hardware? My PC *IS* the drive." Fun fact about the software emulation of the DECtape II, is that there is no limit on the size (beyond the addressable range of the protocol of course). Hilariously, you *CAN* boot RT-11 off of a DECtape II that thinks it's the size of an RL02 pack... Being it's running off a serial port, it's as fast as you would think it is. (At least no rewind time like on the actual DECtape II!) I'm rambling, so I'm going to apply the magical power of "shutting up" now. Cheers, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 14:35:16 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 20:35:16 +0100 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> <517C12CC.8030901@gmail.com> <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517C2874.30908@gmail.com> On 27/04/2013 20:05, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 27, 2013, at 2:02 PM, Dave wrote: > >> I assume the tool chain is like the Xilynx one. So you can see the generated routing on the chip and even edit it if desired. These are absolutely amazing tools. I am sure its going to take me a long time to get really up-to-speed on them, but already I can see a huge potential for doing those sort of jobs where you just need several things to happen at once, or where a Pic or Arduino just isn't fas enough... > It's quite similar, which makes sense, since they do almost the same > thing. :-) I've never had cause to manually re-route anything, though, > and I've been at this a while. I can't see why the typical user would want to either. I also noted that there are some open-source tool chains out there but many still need the suppliers tool chain to generate the final bitstream. So we have this:- http://rapidsmith.sourceforge.net/docs.html & this https://github.com/Wolfgang-Spraul/fpgatools which both look interesting. Also this:- http://lekernel.net/fpga_toolchain_talk.pdf > Programmable logic has HUGE advantages in implementing any kind of > synthesized hardware like CPUs, VGA controllers, PCI interfaces, etc. > They're really terrible tasks for CPUs; I'm constantly baffled at > projects like the SwinSID, which use the GPIO port on a microcontroller > to implement the 6502 bus interface. Such a waste of cycles, even if > it is interrupt-driven! But if thats all you know and understand then thats the only tool you can use. 12 months ago I would have done those things with a CPU or MSI logic... > Conversely, though, there are plenty of things that a CPU is much more > suitable for, specifically most things that are highly sequential. You > wouldn't want to make a web server on an FPGA, for example, because you > would need to make lots of complex state machines that would be really > hard to debug. Fortunately, it's usually pretty easy to just bolt on > a microcontroller (or build one in FPGA logic, because a CPU is really > just a specialized state machine with some logic and registers bolted > on). Both Xilinx and Altera have soft-core CPUs that are free to use > and toolchains for them that aren't COMPLETE nightmares. I saw those. > > - Dave > > Lets se how we get on. Like I am sure I keep saying I want to finish my Software Pegasus emulator before starting on the FPGA version(s). I also want to tweak Richards IBM1130 emulator.... .. and I don't retire for over a year so I still have to work ..... Dave G4UGM From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 27 14:44:40 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 15:44:40 -0400 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TerasIC/Altera Cyclone - Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> <517C0EA6.3060005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <517C2AA8.1080303@neurotica.com> On 04/27/2013 03:10 PM, David Riley wrote: >> Just wanted to say this thread is great! I have a TerasIC Cyclone I board here that I am keen to play with, so all information about Altera and products is very helpful. >> >> I didn't know their Linux stuff was on par with Windows; last time I used Quartus it was on Windows XP (and Linux/WINE, even - with minor hiccups). > > Up until version 11, Quartus on Linux was AWFUL, at least if you were > trying to run the GUI (the command-line tools were always more or less > OK). Instead of doing a real port, they used a Win32 compatibility > library called MainWin which was flaky and unreliable except on the > very specific platforms they tested on (SuSE and RedHat Enterprise). > It was a pile of garbage, and running the Windows version under WINE > generally worked better. With 11, they moved the whole GUI to Qt for > both platforms, which has been a massive improvement (there have been > a few growing pains; the first version of the editor didn't even have > a way to turn on the column numbering, so I had to use an external > editor to make sure I wasn't going over 80 cols). Everything works > great under Linux now. The Xilinx software was the same thing. Up until a few releases ago (7? maybe 8?) it was Windows software with a really bad API compatibility layer spackled on top. It was all but unusable. Now they have a real port, it's very nice and smooth. Pretty odd for software that started out in the UNIX world in the first place, and lived most of its life there! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 27 14:02:53 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 20:02:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <20130427011817.GA5031@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Apr 26, 13 09:18:17 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 12:45:10PM -0400, Mouse wrote: > >I'm _especially_ against > >having to use their choice of compiler - which, as I noted a message or > >two ago, probably won't run on either the OS or the CPU architecture I > >want to run it on even if I were willing to run it. > > I certainly get that. For me it's a matter of categories. I can't get the In my case, I don;'t want to depnd on anything that I can't repair or maintain. This doesn't mean it has to be 'open'. I am quite happy to buy a service manual anf accept that it is a copyrighted work that I can't pass on copies of, and that I cannont use it for manufacturing similar devices. Similarly I am happy (if I can afford it!) to pay for a source license for a piexe of software so that I can maintain (and modify) the version I run. But practialyl the easiest way to get source code is to choose open-source pacakges in the first palce :-) > source code or schematics for my microwave oven, but while I'd certainly enjoy Odd... A lot of domestic appliances here have a scheamtic stuck inside. Of course it doesn't docuemtent the itnernals of the PCBs (timer, etc). > having them, it's fiiiine. It's just an appliance. It's irritating being Yes, and when it fails at 23:00 on 24 December, you will wish you had a scheamtic so you can replace the transistor that failed with one from the junk box.... Incidetnalyl, getting back to FPGA design,.I have done it. I would do it again if paid. But I didn;'t enjoy it. In fact I think I hated every darn minute of itm and would not condier such devices for a project I was doing for my own enjoyment. This is artly due to the closed nature of the tools (and the fact that you can't wrtie your own), it's more that there are too may 'levels' between your scheamtic or VHDL program and the actual hardware, which many of the translatiuons being essentuially undocumented. I found I could get a lot more done -- more quickly and more reliably -- using simple ICs than FPGAs. -tony From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Apr 27 15:08:47 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:08:47 -0400 Subject: Available S-100 PCBs Message-ID: <001101ce4383$14210c50$3c6324f0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi, an update on available S-100 board PCBs Good news!? There are several new and reordered S-100 PCBs available! The S-100 68K CPU boards are almost gone and there is still 1 available. There are 23 of the S-100 IDE V2 reorder PCBs and 3 of the new S-100 bus terminator/prototyping board PCBs. There are 3 of the S-100 LAVA PCBs available. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/68000%20Board/68K%20CPU%20Board .htm http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/IDE%20Board/My%20IDE%20Card.htm http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20bus%20t erminator http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm The S-100 PCBs cost the same as before ($20 each).? However due to unforeseen extreme price increases in shipping by USPS I am forced to change shipping costs. Shipping in the US will be $3 for a single PCB and $2 for each additional PCB.? Shipping internationally will be $10 for a single PCB and $3 for each additional PCB.? This is for the bare basics USPS first class postage with no tracking or insurance.? The builder assumes all risk of delivery as per usual arrangement. I apologize for the large price increase on shipping but this is out of my hands.? The USPS is in dire financial trouble and is raising prices on shipping.? It affects us all and is most unfortunate.? These boards are provided "at cost" so there is no margin to absorb any shipping price increases.? I have to pass them along. If you would like one or more S-100 PCBs please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, if you would like to help out this all-volunteer project please get one or more of the S-100 LAVA PCBs. These PCBs are the oldest ones and them sitting around on a shelf does no one any good. I?d like these to go to a hobbyist who would get some enjoyment from these fun to build and use boards. Thanks in advance. I truly appreciate everyone's support in moving these remaining boards. You make this hobbyist home brew project possible. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 27 15:40:53 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 13:40:53 -0700 Subject: Cypress PSoC5 was: Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <517C37D5.6010302@sydex.com> On a somewhat related(>) subject, has anyone used the ARM-based Cypress PSoC chips? They're kind of interesting in having a standard ARM core and a programmable logic part--and being able to use split power supplies to support 5V I/O, for example. Does anyone have any experience with these? They look to be a tad expensive. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 27 15:41:17 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 14:41:17 -0600 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> <517C12CC.8030901@gmail.com> <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517C37ED.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/27/2013 1:05 PM, David Riley wrote: > Conversely, though, there are plenty of things that a CPU is much more > suitable for, specifically most things that are highly sequential. You > wouldn't want to make a web server on an FPGA, for example, because you > would need to make lots of complex state machines that would be really > hard to debug. Fortunately, it's usually pretty easy to just bolt on > a microcontroller (or build one in FPGA logic, because a CPU is really > just a specialized state machine with some logic and registers bolted > on). Both Xilinx and Altera have soft-core CPUs that are free to use > and toolchains for them that aren't COMPLETE nightmares. > I agree with that. I like the wall of paper docs, rather than click on video to show how to . My only real gripe with the modern logic, is to my knowledge the I/O tat is NOT 5 volt tolerant. I would like to use the 40 pin headers for IDE interfacing or some other 'classic' interface. That might be a good project for the DEx boards a 5 volt interface and breadboard. Even if I can't use it for my hardware, I still have a dirt cheap PDP-11. > > - Dave > Ben. PS. I need to dig on the web to if there is a PDP-10 done yet. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Apr 27 16:22:41 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:22:41 -0400 Subject: soft cpu toolchains - Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> <517C12CC.8030901@gmail.com> <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517C41A1.5030006@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/04/13 3:05 PM, David Riley wrote: > ... Both Xilinx and Altera have soft-core CPUs that are free to use > and toolchains for them that aren't COMPLETE nightmares. In the case of Altera Nios, I think that is gcc (+ Eclipse). --Toby > > > - Dave > > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Apr 27 16:24:17 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:24:17 -0400 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <517C4201.5030509@verizon.net> On 04/27/2013 10:49 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > All; > > I'm curious as to what other manufacturers/systems supported the use of > block-oriented magnetic tape media along the lines of the DECtape (TU56) > and DECassette (TU60) drives. You forgot TU58, 256K per drive x 2 drives using preformatted DC100 size tapes. > In particular, what about the use of standard 1/2" tape media under such > circumstances? A wear-n-tear problem given the multi-pass nature of this > use (especially if being used to store temp-files for the OS), but if that > scenario were avoided ... > > I'd like to play around with some, but acquiring either a DECtape or > DECassette unit looks to be somewhere between impossible and merely > seriously unaffordable -- not to mention obtaining media for use with > either. So I'm thinking about whether there are possibly other drives out > there for which I might construct a suitable controller to mediate between > the raw(er) mechanism and the OS. Tu58s are around, the usual problem si dead capstan roller but they can be remade easily using a peice of flexible plastic (Tygon) tubing. Tapes can be found and the interface is serial line using a protocal for commands and data packets. There are TU58 emulators for PCs as well. > > Unlike a streaming tape unit I'd expect that a major consideration would be > keeping the moment-of-inertia of the reels as low as possible, consistent > with holding a sufficiently long tape at sufficient bit-density to achieve > an economically-viable amount of storage per tape (*e.g*., 256Kb -- > DECtape was 184K 12-bit words or 144K 18-bit words). > > DEC managed it; did anyone else? I'm certain there were many others but not any I tended to play with being DEC based. Allison > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Apr 27 16:24:56 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:24:56 -0400 Subject: State of FPGA tools for Linux - Re: [cctalk] Re: TerasIC/Altera Cyclone In-Reply-To: <517C2AA8.1080303@neurotica.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> <517C0EA6.3060005@telegraphics.com.au> <517C2AA8.1080303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <517C4228.1020507@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/04/13 3:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/27/2013 03:10 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> Just wanted to say this thread is great! I have a TerasIC Cyclone I board here that I am keen to play with, so all information about Altera and products is very helpful. >>> >>> I didn't know their Linux stuff was on par with Windows; last time I used Quartus it was on Windows XP (and Linux/WINE, even - with minor hiccups). >> >> Up until version 11, Quartus on Linux was AWFUL, at least if you were >> trying to run the GUI (the command-line tools were always more or less >> OK). Instead of doing a real port, they used a Win32 compatibility >> library called MainWin which was flaky and unreliable except on the >> very specific platforms they tested on (SuSE and RedHat Enterprise). >> It was a pile of garbage, and running the Windows version under WINE >> generally worked better. With 11, they moved the whole GUI to Qt for >> both platforms, which has been a massive improvement (there have been >> a few growing pains; the first version of the editor didn't even have >> a way to turn on the column numbering, so I had to use an external >> editor to make sure I wasn't going over 80 cols). Everything works >> great under Linux now. > > The Xilinx software was the same thing. Up until a few releases ago (7? > maybe 8?) it was Windows software with a really bad API compatibility layer > spackled on top. It was all but unusable. Now they have a real port, it's > very nice and smooth. > > Pretty odd for software that started out in the UNIX world in the first > place, and lived most of its life there! Thanks for the info, folks... I will be curious to see the current state of Linux tools. This is some progress... --T > > -Dave > From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Apr 27 16:25:38 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:25:38 -0400 Subject: [N8VEM-S100:1583] S100-68K-V3 -- A brake at last! In-Reply-To: <003001ce42a7$e77ca3c0$b675eb40$@vitasoft.org> References: <003001ce42a7$e77ca3c0$b675eb40$@vitasoft.org> Message-ID: <000001ce438d$d03643b0$70a2cb10$@YAHOO.COM> Thanks John! That's great news! Yay! http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/68000%20Board/68K%20CPU%20Board .htm Now that the S-100 68K CPU board is working I'd like us to consider either a PAK68/2 and/or PAK68/3 for it or a 68030 native board. Especially one that could use the top connector for the 8MB or 32 MB SRAM board. I am thinking a 68030 native board would be about the same complexity as the S-100 80386 CPU board and even share elements of the design. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From: John Monahan [mailto:monahan at vitasoft.org] Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 2:00 PM To: n8vem-s100 at googlegroups.com; 'yoda' Cc: Andrew Lynch Subject: RE: [N8VEM-S100:1583] S100-68K-V3 -- A brake at last! Good news guys, finally got a brake on the 68K board. Now have it working R/W S-100 RAM (4MG Static RAM board) with a 12MHz oscillator (bus clock 6MHz). The problem is embarrassing, a poor solder joint to ground on U32! You would think by now I would have seen this earlier. Should have check more carefully before the build - I never learn. My tip-off was that an old Godbout 64K RAM board worked fine - did not require upper address lines! Feel somewhat relieved, but we are still not out of the woods. At these speeds the board does not work reliably in the extender board (but OK at lower speeds). In contrast the 8086,80286,80386 have absolutely no problem far higher speed (bus clock 10-12MHz). Timing is clearly tight. I will try and tweak things. Dave, since you are almost there, for me - P2 16-15 jumper halts everything. Does it for you? Stay tuned John From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Apr 27 16:30:08 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 17:30:08 -0400 Subject: TerasIC/Altera Cyclone - Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> <517C0EA6.3060005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <517C4360.3090504@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/04/13 3:10 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 27, 2013, at 1:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > ... > >> The FPGA on my board is EP1C6Q240C8. > > Yeah, that's... that's pretty old by now. And REALLY small. It's old, but I am a real neophyte, so it should be a good match for now... unless of course toolchains no longer support it, which would disturb me greatly, and plainly stoke arguments against closed software that are burning elsewhere on the thread. --Toby > > - Dave > From cclist at sytse.net Sat Apr 27 18:44:40 2013 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 01:44:40 +0200 Subject: TerasIC/Altera Cyclone - Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517C4360.3090504@telegraphics.com.au> References: <517C4360.3090504@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1486259.zKk1WIV8NM@i5.sytse.net> On Saturday, April 27, 2013 17:30:08 Toby Thain wrote: > On 27/04/13 3:10 PM, David Riley wrote: > > On Apr 27, 2013, at 1:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > ... > > > >> The FPGA on my board is EP1C6Q240C8. > > > > Yeah, that's... that's pretty old by now. And REALLY small. > > It's old, but I am a real neophyte, so it should be a good match for > now... unless of course toolchains no longer support it, which would > disturb me greatly, and plainly stoke arguments against closed software > that are burning elsewhere on the thread. > > --Toby > > > - Dave On the subject of the board, it is indeed REALLY small, I'd be surprised if it fits my pdp11 core - even when configured for very small models, like 11/03 or 11/10. Old in this case means 'no longer for sale' - or 'not recommended for new designs', which basically means the same. In other words, the mainstream of tooling is moving away from it, and support for the chip itself may no longer be in the latest versions. You can still get the older versions of the tooling though - so, supporting existing hardware is not a problem. I think this is already the case for first generation Cyclone chips like yours - I don't find support for it in my current version of Altera's Quartus. Does that stoke the arguments elsewhere? Certainly. But, those belong in a grey area anyway, it just hinges on where you put the bar. Designing hardware in VHDL does really form a special place in there, that nobody seems to recognize as such. Yes, the design I made for a pdp11 depends on the tooling from Altera or Xilinx to put into their FPGA's. But, I could also mail the VHDL files to a foundry and have them etch silicon for it. In both cases, I depend on the respective companies to use their IP to do something sensible to my design. But the design itself does not depend on a single company - but rather upon the status of VHDL as a standard. I don't think I made a wrong choice there... But, if in 10 or 20 years I'm unable to compile my VHDL in the then-standard tooling, be sure to remind me to eat my words. From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 18:46:57 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 16:46:57 -0700 Subject: IBM Mainframe System Engineer Manuals in NYC Area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <517C6371.7000003@gmail.com> Saw this over on the vintage computer forum. Not sure if it has been mentioned here or not. Sorry if so. http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Spring-Cleaning-Boxes-IBM-Mainframe-1768367.S.235429017?view=&srchtype=discussedNews&gid=1768367&item=235429017&type=member&trk=eml-anet_dig-b_nd-pst_ttle-hdp&ut=3k8OGvhMfxGlI1 From cclist at sytse.net Sat Apr 27 18:51:47 2013 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 01:51:47 +0200 Subject: State of FPGA tools for Linux - Re: [cctalk] Re: TerasIC/Altera Cyclone In-Reply-To: <517C4228.1020507@telegraphics.com.au> References: <517C2AA8.1080303@neurotica.com> <517C4228.1020507@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1467250.kTff11xpxn@i5.sytse.net> On Saturday, April 27, 2013 17:24:56 Toby Thain wrote: > On 27/04/13 3:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 04/27/2013 03:10 PM, David Riley wrote: > >>> Just wanted to say this thread is great! I have a TerasIC Cyclone I > >>> board here that I am keen to play with, so all information about Altera > >>> and products is very helpful. > >>> > >>> I didn't know their Linux stuff was on par with Windows; last time I > >>> used Quartus it was on Windows XP (and Linux/WINE, even - with minor > >>> hiccups).>> > >> Up until version 11, Quartus on Linux was AWFUL, at least if you were > >> trying to run the GUI (the command-line tools were always more or less > >> OK). Instead of doing a real port, they used a Win32 compatibility > >> library called MainWin which was flaky and unreliable except on the > >> very specific platforms they tested on (SuSE and RedHat Enterprise). > >> It was a pile of garbage, and running the Windows version under WINE > >> generally worked better. With 11, they moved the whole GUI to Qt for > >> both platforms, which has been a massive improvement (there have been > >> a few growing pains; the first version of the editor didn't even have > >> a way to turn on the column numbering, so I had to use an external > >> editor to make sure I wasn't going over 80 cols). Everything works > >> great under Linux now. > >> > > The Xilinx software was the same thing. Up until a few releases ago > > (7? > > > > maybe 8?) it was Windows software with a really bad API compatibility > > layer > > spackled on top. It was all but unusable. Now they have a real port, > > it's > > very nice and smooth. > > > > Pretty odd for software that started out in the UNIX world in the first > > > > place, and lived most of its life there! > > Thanks for the info, folks... I will be curious to see the current state > of Linux tools. This is some progress... > > --T > > > -Dave When I started my pdp11 project, Altera's tools were awful - it produced plainly wrong results now and then, and Xilinx only ran on Windows - I used CVS to move between my editing machine and the build machine. Times have changed. Both vendors now produce decent toolchains on Linux - including the simulators, which have a steep learning curve maybe, but it's really nice stuff to play with. I still don't use either vendors built in editors, but that is a matter of preference rather than anything else - I happen to like KDE's kate very much. The only thing I have left to whine about is that Quartus does not understand about changing project files outside of what it does itself - it's internal make concept does not see any changes in project files. But I'm sure they'll get there eventually. From cclist at sytse.net Sat Apr 27 19:16:28 2013 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 02:16:28 +0200 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3049888.fL4Uk61VZ1@i5.sytse.net> On Friday, April 26, 2013 23:46:52 ben wrote: > On 4/26/2013 11:18 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > What about the automatic industrial stapler? > > I could use a shotgun ... Looks at the hardware, > no easy way to program the SDRAM. I think I'll order > the DE1 as well. DE1 has a somewhat smallish sram - 512Kb. Enough for most of DEC's operating systems, but limiting if you want to run 2.11BSD with the networking stuff and ethernet - I doubt if it will run at all. There's sdram on DE1 as well, but I'm having problems with it - probably I'm missing something. Or maybe my board is flawed - ehh, I doubt that is really the problem. sram is much easier to interface, that's certainly true. However, I learned that sdram is easy enough as well, as long as you are not trying for optimal bandwidth or using all banks simultaneously. The timing is still a lot more involved though. But then, you could also consider that any decent FPGA has internal srams - both the FPGA's on DE1 and DE0 have. Smaller, certainly - but, if you need a 4K sram, it's there. So it really comes down to what you need the memories for. > > >> -- > >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > >> New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 20:59:31 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 21:59:31 -0400 Subject: IBM Mainframe System Engineer Manuals in NYC Area In-Reply-To: <517C6371.7000003@gmail.com> References: <517C6371.7000003@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Saw this over on the vintage computer forum. Not sure if it has been > mentioned here or not. Sorry if so. > > http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Spring-Cleaning-Boxes-IBM-Mainframe-1768367.S.235429017?view=&srchtype=discussedNews&gid=1768367&item=235429017&type=member&trk=eml-anet_dig-b_nd-pst_ttle-hdp&ut=3k8OGvhMfxGlI1 Does anyone have an email for this guy? I might be able to grab the goodies for Bitsavers. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 27 23:52:33 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 21:52:33 -0700 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: <517C4201.5030509@verizon.net> References: <517C4201.5030509@verizon.net> Message-ID: <517CAB11.7090707@sydex.com> On 04/27/2013 10:49 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > All; > > I'm curious as to what other manufacturers/systems supported the use of > block-oriented magnetic tape media along the lines of the DECtape (TU56) > and DECassette (TU60) drives. There was a bunch in QIC-format, including Apple. 3M sold not only blank tapes, but "-mat" preformatted tapes (e.g. Kappamat, Iotamat, Zetamat...) Some of these tapes did not use optical BOT/EOT sensing, but rather patterns on a preformatted tape. I have a 3M-made ADIC drive that is such a beast. --Chuck From pinball at telus.net Sat Apr 27 09:17:38 2013 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 07:17:38 -0700 Subject: Manual Wanted for Epson Pen Plotter. In-Reply-To: <517B7E0B.5060406@gmail.com> References: <517AE0F6.4080408@gmail.com> <517B7E0B.5060406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517BDE02.20708@telus.net> On 04/27/2013 12:28 AM, Dave wrote: > On 27/04/2013 00:45, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Fri, 26 Apr 2013, Dave wrote: >> >>> I just purchased this Epson HI-80 plotter and whilst I can find a >>> little bit about it on the net, I can't find a manual any where. Has >>> any one got one lurking they would be willing to copy for me? >> >> Epson has a large archive of stuff on their ftp server at >> ftp://ftp.epson.com/ and there is always a chance that there may be a >> manual for it buried there somewhere. Unfortunately there doesn't >> seem to be a proper index of the ftp server so it has been a >> challenge finding documentation for my various Epson disk drives and >> printers. >> > Thanks for that pointer I have had a good search but found nothing > that old. It also looks like its the same plotter as the Tektronix > HC100. There are a couple of manuals for this on US E-Bay but for all > of them the total price for purchase and shipping to the UK comes out > at three times the cost of the plotter, which is a lot to pay when I > don't even know if the command set is the same... > > Dave > G4UGM > It never hurts to send a note to tech support at companies like Epson - I've often had success with getting PDFs of manuals that are not online by asking nicely... John :-#)# From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 09:49:14 2013 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:49:14 -0400 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives Message-ID: All; I'm curious as to what other manufacturers/systems supported the use of block-oriented magnetic tape media along the lines of the DECtape (TU56) and DECassette (TU60) drives. In particular, what about the use of standard 1/2" tape media under such circumstances? A wear-n-tear problem given the multi-pass nature of this use (especially if being used to store temp-files for the OS), but if that scenario were avoided ... I'd like to play around with some, but acquiring either a DECtape or DECassette unit looks to be somewhere between impossible and merely seriously unaffordable -- not to mention obtaining media for use with either. So I'm thinking about whether there are possibly other drives out there for which I might construct a suitable controller to mediate between the raw(er) mechanism and the OS. Unlike a streaming tape unit I'd expect that a major consideration would be keeping the moment-of-inertia of the reels as low as possible, consistent with holding a sufficiently long tape at sufficient bit-density to achieve an economically-viable amount of storage per tape (*e.g*., 256Kb -- DECtape was 184K 12-bit words or 144K 18-bit words). DEC managed it; did anyone else? (Of course, if anyone has a lead on a DEC unit -- DECtape preferred -- I'm very interested.) Thanks for your thoughts! ----- paul From sytse at sytse.net Sat Apr 27 19:02:32 2013 From: sytse at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 02:02:32 +0200 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517C37ED.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> <517C37ED.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2338051.xHuEB6Du7t@i5.sytse.net> On Saturday, April 27, 2013 14:41:17 ben wrote: > On 4/27/2013 1:05 PM, David Riley wrote: > > Conversely, though, there are plenty of things that a CPU is much more > > suitable for, specifically most things that are highly sequential. You > > wouldn't want to make a web server on an FPGA, for example, because you > > would need to make lots of complex state machines that would be really > > hard to debug. Fortunately, it's usually pretty easy to just bolt on > > a microcontroller (or build one in FPGA logic, because a CPU is really > > just a specialized state machine with some logic and registers bolted > > on). Both Xilinx and Altera have soft-core CPUs that are free to use > > and toolchains for them that aren't COMPLETE nightmares. > > I agree with that. I like the wall of paper docs, rather than > click on video to show how to . My only real gripe > with the modern logic, is to my knowledge the I/O tat is NOT 5 volt > tolerant. Current hardware tends to stop at 3.3V. There is nothing stopping you from adding your own level convertors to raise that to 5V. Might be a bit difficult to make all the electrical bits conform to the original specs. Not in any way impossible, though. > I would like to use the 40 pin headers for IDE interfacing or some other > 'classic' interface. That might be a good project for the DEx boards > a 5 volt interface and breadboard. Even if I can't use it for my > hardware, I still have a dirt cheap PDP-11. Yep. You can have an 11/94 for the price of a de0-nano, some wires, an r232 level shifter and an sd card. If you try hard enough, you can keep that under $100. And, you could also add the hardware you're thinking of interfacing to, inside the FPGA instead. In many cases, implementing the logic in the FPGA itself is not really that much harder than implementing the interface to the real hardware. Consider how I did the rs232 and disk controllers - somewhat complex, but probably easier than interfacing to the real hardware. Does the job, though. > > > - Dave > > Ben. > PS. I need to dig on the web to if there is a PDP-10 done yet. Someone posting to this list is over halfway there :-) From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Apr 28 04:26:32 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 21:26:32 +1200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Mosaic_turns_20=3A_Let=27s_fire_up_the_old_girl=2C_sho?= =?windows-1252?Q?w_her_the_web_today_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <1367035772.14021.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <517AA330.7020508@sbcglobal.net> <1367035772.14021.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I remember first seeing Mosaic in action some time in mid-1993. I remember thinking "This will change everything". Terry (Tez) On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 4:09 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: > > > >________________________________ > > From: Dave Woyciesjes > >To: ClassicCMP > >Sent: Saturday, 27 April 2013 1:54 AM > >Subject: Mosaic turns 20: Let's fire up the old girl, show her the web > today ? The Register > > > > > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/26/mosaic_20_anniversary/ > > > > > another book I have to buy :) > tom > > > > >-- > >--- Dave Woyciesjes > >--- ICQ# 905818 > >--- AIM - woyciesjes > >--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ > >--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > > >"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > >"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > > - from some guy on the internet. > > > > > > > > > > From shadoooo at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 04:51:40 2013 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 11:51:40 +0200 Subject: any TU58 available? Message-ID: Hello. I have an old VAX 730 that needs to be restored, and temporaneously is stored, because of lack of space to disassemble and repair the machine. With the machine it came a box of old cassettes, that I would try to read. Furthermore, I'm working on disassembling the code of a TU58 rom, because I would try to hack the firmware to provide the ability to format an empty DC100 cassette. For this reasons, I'm searching for a TU58 drive in good/repairable condition, if anybody has one to sell for reasonable price. I'm in Italy, so europe is preferred... Andrea From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Apr 28 08:24:27 2013 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 09:24:27 -0400 Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation Message-ID: <201304281324.r3SDOTpE032247@rickmurphy.net> I'm in the process of trying to resurrect a MicroVAX-II system. I have a RRD50 cd reader and the associated KRQ50 controller. What I'm missing is the cable between the cabinet kit and the drive. I've tried various incantations, including a AUI cable (DA15 to DA15) and what I think is a straight-through cable. I also hooked the cabinet kit DA15M direct to the drive with no success. In most cases the drive spins up but when I try to boot it, the red error LED on the drive blinks then it spins down. So, I've got to build a cable. Does anyone have documentation of the pinout of what I need to build? Thanks, -Rick From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 08:39:37 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 09:39:37 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <2338051.xHuEB6Du7t@i5.sytse.net> References: <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> <517C37ED.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <2338051.xHuEB6Du7t@i5.sytse.net> Message-ID: <2E879D27-C150-488F-8556-B914003F4EBC@gmail.com> On Apr 27, 2013, at 20:02, Sytse van Slooten wrote: >> I agree with that. I like the wall of paper docs, rather than >> click on video to show how to . My only real gripe >> with the modern logic, is to my knowledge the I/O tat is NOT 5 volt >> tolerant. > Current hardware tends to stop at 3.3V. There is nothing stopping you from > adding your own level convertors to raise that to 5V. Might be a bit difficult > to make all the electrical bits conform to the original specs. Not in any way > impossible, though. The DE1, at least, has series resistors on the 40-pin external headers so that you can interface directly to 5v. The ESD protection diodes on the inputs limit the voltage applied to the actual input transistors to acceptable levels, and the series resistors limit the current flowing through the diodes so they don't burn up. I don't recall offhand whether the DE0 did the same thing, but the schematic is available. Don't forget that a 3.3v output will work fine with 5v TTL inputs as well. The interface isn't necessarily suited for hooking direct to a big bus, though; you'd probably want to pass through a stronger driver transceiver first. >> I would like to use the 40 pin headers for IDE interfacing or some other >> 'classic' interface. That might be a good project for the DEx boards >> a 5 volt interface and breadboard. Even if I can't use it for my >> hardware, I still have a dirt cheap PDP-11. > Yep. You can have an 11/94 for the price of a de0-nano, some wires, an r232 > level shifter and an sd card. If you try hard enough, you can keep that under > $100. I should point out that those headers aren't suited for plugging directly into an IDE drive; the power and ground pins land on some meaningful data pins. You need to make an adaptor. Also, avoid using 80-conductor cables with those connectors; those cables internally bus the IDE grounds together, which don't correspond to the grounds on the board. You won't short power to ground or anything like that, but you will lose a few otherwise useful pins. On the bright side, the DE0 and DE1 use the same pinouts for those connectors, so things should be cross-compatible. The DE0 even runs some clock pins out there, which can be pretty useful. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 09:28:39 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:28:39 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517C2874.30908@gmail.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> <517C12CC.8030901@gmail.com> <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> <517C2874.30908@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 27, 2013, at 3:35 PM, Dave wrote: >> It's quite similar, which makes sense, since they do almost the same >> thing. :-) I've never had cause to manually re-route anything, though, >> and I've been at this a while. > I can't see why the typical user would want to either. Well, sometimes you have to fix things that the synthesis tool gets wrong. Sometimes you just need the extra performance; it's a lot like the situations in which you'd need to write assembly in software these days. > I also noted that there are some open-source tool chains out there but many still need the suppliers tool chain to generate the final bitstream. So we have this:- There are actually a number of third-party synthesis tools that are commercially available; they synthesize the initial intermediate netlist that the manufacturer's tool can do the final mapping to a real device and fitting to said device. There are various reasons to do that; portability is a big one (not only between FPGA families, but also e.g. to ASICs), but performance is another. The netlists that come from the commercial synthesis tools can be somewhat faster or smaller than the ones from the manufacturers' tools; these days, though, at least Altera and Xilinx do pretty good synthesis. I know at least Icarus Verilog used to have a synthesis target, but my recollection is that it's been somewhat defunct for a while now (the synthesis target, not Icarus). > http://rapidsmith.sourceforge.net/docs.html > > & this > > https://github.com/Wolfgang-Spraul/fpgatools > > which both look interesting. Also this:- > > http://lekernel.net/fpga_toolchain_talk.pdf All three of those are extremely cool. I need to get a Spartan 6 board now, I guess. :-) >> Programmable logic has HUGE advantages in implementing any kind of >> synthesized hardware like CPUs, VGA controllers, PCI interfaces, etc. >> They're really terrible tasks for CPUs; I'm constantly baffled at >> projects like the SwinSID, which use the GPIO port on a microcontroller >> to implement the 6502 bus interface. Such a waste of cycles, even if >> it is interrupt-driven! > But if thats all you know and understand then thats the only tool you can use. 12 months ago I would have done those things with a CPU or MSI logic... Oh, sure. No argument there. I'm just always surprised when people suggest making e.g. a VGA controller with an Arduino, because it seems like powering a boat with a motorcycle to me. > Lets se how we get on. Like I am sure I keep saying I want to finish my Software Pegasus emulator before starting on the FPGA version(s). I also want to tweak Richards IBM1130 emulator.... > .. and I don't retire for over a year so I still have to work ..... Yeah, I don't retire for... a while now. It makes it hard to find the spare time, for sure. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 09:30:55 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:30:55 -0400 Subject: soft cpu toolchains - Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517C41A1.5030006@telegraphics.com.au> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> <517C12CC.8030901@gmail.com> <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> <517C41A1.5030006@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Apr 27, 2013, at 5:22 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 27/04/13 3:05 PM, David Riley wrote: >> ... Both Xilinx and Altera have soft-core CPUs that are free to use >> and toolchains for them that aren't COMPLETE nightmares. > > In the case of Altera Nios, I think that is gcc (+ Eclipse). Xilinx has moved to that for their soft- and hard-core CPUs as well. Eclipse has the benefit of being portable and somewhat standard as well as extensible enough to add the integration with the FPGA tools, but it's not always an altogether pleasant experience. Still, they're not the worst IDEs I've ever used by a long shot. - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 28 09:55:27 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 08:55:27 -0600 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <2E879D27-C150-488F-8556-B914003F4EBC@gmail.com> References: <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> <517C37ED.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <2338051.xHuEB6Du7t@i5.sytse.net> <2E879D27-C150-488F-8556-B914003F4EBC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517D385F.7010000@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/28/2013 7:39 AM, David Riley wrote: > I should point out that those headers aren't suited for plugging > directly into an IDE drive; the power and ground pins land on > some meaningful data pins. You need to make an adaptor. Also, > avoid using 80-conductor cables with those connectors; those > cables internally bus the IDE grounds together, which don't > correspond to the grounds on the board. You won't short > power to ground or anything like that, but you will lose a few > otherwise useful pins. A quick glance at the DE0 schematic just shows direct connections to the headers. > On the bright side, the DE0 and DE1 use the same pinouts for > those connectors, so things should be cross-compatible. The > DE0 even runs some clock pins out there, which can be > pretty useful. I made a quick choice with the DE0 hoping it would have all what I need. That was a bad choice on my part, from just reading the web site. The docs are there, but you have dig for them. > > - Dave > None the less, both boards do make nice hardware for the classic machines. Ben. From alan at alanlee.org Sun Apr 28 10:57:10 2013 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 11:57:10 -0400 Subject: Cypress PSoC5 was: Re: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517C37D5.6010302@sydex.com> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> <517C37D5.6010302@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C451479-9898-421B-AB0B-1A05A8EF01CC@alanlee.org> I contributed to the FreeSoC kickstart and received my boards recently but haven't had time to try any interesting projects. Yes the native 5V operation and what seems to be 3x 22v10 equivalent PLD blocks allow for some interesting possibilities in creating slave bus interfaces and/or DMA driven custom data pumps. The MFM emulator idea you've been kicking around using SPI may get a lot simpler for example. The 3s are a lot cheaper and I still have a soft spot for 8051s. Too bad they don't have nearly the same RAM. If you start working on something, let me know. I could probably help develop or test. -Alan Sent from my iPad On Apr 27, 2013, at 4:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On a somewhat related(>) subject, has anyone used the ARM-based Cypress PSoC chips? They're kind of interesting in having a standard ARM core and a programmable logic part--and being able to use split power supplies to support 5V I/O, for example. > > Does anyone have any experience with these? They look to be a tad expensive. > > --Chuck > From radioengr at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 10:59:45 2013 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 08:59:45 -0700 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517C37ED.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> <517C12CC.8030901@gmail.com> <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> <517C37ED.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <517D4771.30304@gmail.com> > > Ben. > PS. I need to dig on the web to if there is a PDP-10 done yet. > My KS-10 FPGA is a work in progress. See: http://techtravels.org/?page_id=656 Rob. From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 04:51:33 2013 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 05:51:33 -0400 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove < captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 27 April 2013 10:49, Paul Birkel wrote: > > All; > > > > I'm curious as to what other manufacturers/systems supported the use of > > block-oriented magnetic tape media along the lines of the DECtape (TU56) > > and DECassette (TU60) drives. > > > Well, there is LINCtape, which DECtape is a modified derivative of > (and which DEC even made drives of, see the DEC made LINCs, LINC-8 and > PDP-12). Right. I was subconsciously lumping them with "regular" DECtape. > There's also DECtape II (TU58), which is the thing that > everyone and their mother has an emulator for (it's the one that plugs > into a serial port, and holds 256KB on a tape). > Ah, cartridge-based. I was thinking about the open-reel (really ancient :->) drives. > Correct me if I'm wrong, but TU60 DECassette isn't a block format > media like the DECtape or DECtape II. > I stand corrected WRT the TU60, as the TA11 controller states "Capacity: Full tape 93,000 bytes minimum; with 256 byte blocks, 87,000 bytes minimum. Subtract 300 bytes for each file gap." but also "Data format: Variable block length, 1 byte minimum, no maximum, hardware-formatted with length software-controlled". So it's more like a blocked form of standard sequential access than DECtape (which has a timing/format track enabling pseudo-random access). It does appear as if one can seek to a specific data file based on counting file gaps (and one can "Space Reverse/Forward Block" as well as "Space Reverse/Forward File"), but if you want to lay down new content then one has to rewrite the entire tape (or possibly append to the end if room remains). I presume that in combination with the block-level CRC the "Space Reverse/Forward Block" enables sufficient error-handling. Thanks for keeping me straight! > > In particular, what about the use of standard 1/2" tape media under such > > circumstances? A wear-n-tear problem given the multi-pass nature of this > > use (especially if being used to store temp-files for the OS), but if > that > > scenario were avoided ... > > > That's why DECtape (the original) was rather thick and had much > redundancy of its tracks (two copies of all the tracks), same as > LINCtape did it; though I do believe that the LINCtape did have the > format different, LINCtape also ran "backwards" to DECtape. > > > > I'd like to play around with some, but acquiring either a DECtape or > > DECassette unit looks to be somewhere between impossible and merely > > seriously unaffordable -- not to mention obtaining media for use with > > either. So I'm thinking about whether there are possibly other drives > out > > there for which I might construct a suitable controller to mediate > between > > the raw(er) mechanism and the OS. > > > TU58 DECtape II, all it needs is a serial port; it's compact, and the > protocol of the controllers is relatively well documented. You can > find all sorts of implementations of DECtape II; ranging from the real > thing, to the "we made a small bit of IC and flash look like a pair of > DECtape IIs", to "what hardware? My PC *IS* the drive." > Anyone have one of the "real things" lying around with which they'd care to part, along with some media? > Fun fact about the software emulation of the DECtape II, is that there > is no limit on the size (beyond the addressable range of the protocol > of course). Hilariously, you *CAN* boot RT-11 off of a DECtape II that > thinks it's the size of an RL02 pack... Being it's running off a > serial port, it's as fast as you would think it is. (At least no > rewind time like on the actual DECtape II!) > > I'm rambling, so I'm going to apply the magical power of "shutting up" now. > Heck no, keep 'em coming :->. > > Cheers, > Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 12:44:04 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 13:44:04 -0400 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517D385F.7010000@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> <517C37ED.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <2338051.xHuEB6Du7t@i5.sytse.net> <2E879D27-C150-488F-8556-B914003F4EBC@gmail.com> <517D385F.7010000@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4D6979C7-7015-4074-9EB8-940312246BDC@gmail.com> On Apr 28, 2013, at 10:55 AM, ben wrote: > On 4/28/2013 7:39 AM, David Riley wrote: > >> I should point out that those headers aren't suited for plugging >> directly into an IDE drive; the power and ground pins land on >> some meaningful data pins. You need to make an adaptor. Also, >> avoid using 80-conductor cables with those connectors; those >> cables internally bus the IDE grounds together, which don't >> correspond to the grounds on the board. You won't short >> power to ground or anything like that, but you will lose a few >> otherwise useful pins. > > A quick glance at the DE0 schematic just shows direct connections > to the headers. Yes, but what makes it incompatible with an IDE cable pinout is that pins 12 and 30 are ground, 11 is 5v and 29 is 3.3v. On an IDE cable, 11 is DD3, 12 is DD12, 29 is #DMACK and at least 30 is ground. You need to swizzle the pins around through an adaptor board if you're going to use it for IDE. >> On the bright side, the DE0 and DE1 use the same pinouts for >> those connectors, so things should be cross-compatible. The >> DE0 even runs some clock pins out there, which can be >> pretty useful. > > I made a quick choice with the DE0 hoping it would have all what I need. > That was a bad choice on my part, from just reading the web site. > The docs are there, but you have dig for them. In what sense? The only significant thing (from my POV, for what that's worth) that the DE0 lacks vs. the DE1 is the SRAM. It has normal SDRAM (not DDR), which takes a bit of work to interface, but it's worth the investment in time. The nice thing about (non-DDR) SDRAM is that it is interfaced almost identically to regular DRAM, but all the commands and data come synchronously on a clock edge instead of on the RAS and CAS edges. The only thing that's pesky (as Sytse pointed out) is making sure that you have your setup and hold timing working properly; you'd have to do that anyway with normal DRAM. DDR gets more hairy, but that's not on the DE0. Which docs did you have a hard time finding? If you're looking for some specific topic, I'll be glad to point the way if I know where it is; I've never found anything to be particularly hard to find, but if you're not as used to FPGA design, it might not be as intuitive to know where you're supposed to be looking. :-) > None the less, both boards do make nice hardware for the classic machines. Indeed! And for other fun little projects. - Dave From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Apr 28 13:55:58 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 14:55:58 -0400 Subject: any TU58 available? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <517D70BE.2010908@verizon.net> On 04/28/2013 05:51 AM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello. > I have an old VAX 730 that needs to be restored, and temporaneously is > stored, > because of lack of space to disassemble and repair the machine. > With the machine it came a box of old cassettes, that I would try to read. > Furthermore, I'm working on disassembling the code of a TU58 rom, > because I would try to hack the firmware to provide the ability to format > an empty DC100 cassette. Important 730 note is that those are the microcode boot tapes. BEFORE you put on in the drive on that machine inspect the drive roller as it is more than likely failed and turned to a goo. Without the boot tapes that machine is not very useful. However the drive can be replace with an emulator as the interface is serial RS423. Good luck on a formatter. The drive has no physical EOT/BOT sense that alone makes formatting near impossible. The system senses EOT/BOT by reading the tape, if those marks are missing or the head is dirty, the usual result is you run off then end of the tape and have to open it up and thread it. If the format is missing it will without fail run off the end. So to format media you will have to modify the physical drive to ad EOT/BOT sense and the controller to likely add IO, EPROM and possibly more ram to do that. You will also need to bit by bit read the tape for the actual base format. It is far easier to duplicate the communication protocol and create a controller that uses Flash, Ram with battery backup, SD, or CF as the storage media that acts like a TU58. Also the result would not have the physical rewind delay and would be effectively faster. The other pain you will avoid is that tape availability is going away and the problem of media failure over time. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 28 14:41:03 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 13:41:03 -0600 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <4D6979C7-7015-4074-9EB8-940312246BDC@gmail.com> References: <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> <517C37ED.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <2338051.xHuEB6Du7t@i5.sytse.net> <2E879D27-C150-488F-8556-B914003F4EBC@gmail.com> <517D385F.7010000@jetnet.ab.ca> <4D6979C7-7015-4074-9EB8-940312246BDC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517D7B4F.5060406@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/28/2013 11:44 AM, David Riley wrote: > Yes, but what makes it incompatible with an IDE cable pinout is > that pins 12 and 30 are ground, 11 is 5v and 29 is 3.3v. On an > IDE cable, 11 is DD3, 12 is DD12, 29 is #DMACK and at least 30 > is ground. You need to swizzle the pins around through an > adaptor board if you're going to use it for IDE. I guessed when I bought the board One header would be IDE and the other a custom I/O. > In what sense? The only significant thing (from my POV, for > what that's worth) that the DE0 lacks vs. the DE1 is the > SRAM. It has normal SDRAM (not DDR), which takes a bit of > work to interface, but it's worth the investment in time. > The nice thing about (non-DDR) SDRAM is that it is interfaced > almost identically to regular DRAM, but all the commands and > data come synchronously on a clock edge instead of on the RAS > and CAS edges. The only thing that's pesky (as Sytse pointed > out) is making sure that you have your setup and hold timing > working properly; you'd have to do that anyway with normal > DRAM. DDR gets more hairy, but that's not on the DE0. The SRAM will let me do crash and burn testing. Off hand the 18 bit cpu I am designing looks to have about 150 LE's for the alu and 150 for the registers. I am guessing about 300 more for the random control logic. > Indeed! And for other fun little projects. What other fun projects? > - Dave > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 28 13:22:45 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:22:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: from "Paul Birkel" at Apr 27, 13 10:49:14 am Message-ID: > > All; > > I'm curious as to what other manufacturers/systems supported the use of > block-oriented magnetic tape media along the lines of the DECtape (TU56) > and DECassette (TU60) drives. One example that springs to my mind (although somewhat later -- mid 1980s) are the HP9142, 9144 and 9145 drives. These took QIC cartridges, the HP9142 using stnadard DC600 tapes, the toer 2 using special pre-formatted tapes (which I am told were actualyl sort-of stnadard at the time) These drives have internal controllers with an HPIB host interface and accept the SS/80 or CS/80 command set IIRC. The first 2 units contain a 6809 processor and a couple of ASICs for data handling. The last one has a 68000 (!) iside. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 28 13:34:54 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:34:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: from "Paul Birkel" at Apr 27, 13 10:49:14 am Message-ID: > > All; > > I'm curious as to what other manufacturers/systems supported the use of > block-oriented magnetic tape media along the lines of the DECtape (TU56) > and DECassette (TU60) drives. Just rememebred another HP one, the HP82161. This takes special cassettes, a bit liek a Philips Minicassette (not a microcassette), but not quite the same (the minicassettes do not fit). It has an HPIL host interface and uses something called the 'Filbert Protocol' (FIlbert beign the code name for the HP82161) which is reasonably well docuemanted. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 28 14:12:55 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 20:12:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: <201304281324.r3SDOTpE032247@rickmurphy.net> from "Rick Murphy" at Apr 28, 13 09:24:27 am Message-ID: > > I'm in the process of trying to resurrect a MicroVAX-II system. > I have a RRD50 cd reader and the associated KRQ50 controller. What I'm > missing is the cable between the cabinet kit and the drive. > > I've tried various incantations, including a AUI cable (DA15 to DA15) > and what I think is a straight-through cable. I also hooked the cabinet > kit DA15M direct to the drive with no success. A DA15 conenctor on a CD-ROM drive suggests the old Philips/LMS (Laster Magnetic Stroage) interface. I have the service manual dfor one such drive used o na PCB) whihch gives the interface pinout. If that's right, the cambe would be straight-0through, but there are a couple of differnetial (RS422-like) signals which probabvly should be twisted pairs. But this doens;'t explain why the thing doesn;'t work with the cab kit direlctly plugged into the drirve. Are you sure the drive and controlelr are working properly? I think for it to sping up at all, the thing must be focussing correctly, which implies the laser diode is alight, but there could be a doxen problems with the drive. Have you looekd at the RF Eye pattern, for example? -tony From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Apr 28 16:06:19 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 16:06:19 -0500 Subject: IBM PCs and clones: mTCP 2013-04-26 (DOS TCP/IP apps) is available Message-ID: <517D8F4B.4060805@brutman.com> And nearly another year has passed by ... This version includes: - improved TCP/IP lost packet and retransmit support - DHCP lease expiration detection and warning - IRCjr: mIRC color codes, improved logging support, 132 column awareness, bug fixes - FTP client: user input can be longer now (2 lines), 125 responses from the server handled better - FTP server: improved compatibility with more clients. - Telnet: improved emulation (scroll regions and DEC Origin Mode support) - Many other small fixes and improvements ... Everything is available at http://code.google.com/p/mtcp/ . Mike From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Apr 28 19:09:56 2013 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 20:09:56 -0400 Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: References: <201304281324.r3SDOTpE032247@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <201304290009.r3T09wXk018012@rickmurphy.net> At 03:12 PM 4/28/2013, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I'm in the process of trying to resurrect a MicroVAX-II system. > > I have a RRD50 cd reader and the associated KRQ50 controller. What I'm > > missing is the cable between the cabinet kit and the drive. > > > > I've tried various incantations, including a AUI cable (DA15 to DA15) > > and what I think is a straight-through cable. I also hooked the > cabinet > > kit DA15M direct to the drive with no success. > >A DA15 conenctor on a CD-ROM drive suggests the old Philips/LMS (Laster >Magnetic Stroage) interface. I have the service manual dfor one such >drive used o na PCB) whihch gives the interface pinout. > >If that's right, the cambe would be straight-0through, but there are a >couple of differnetial (RS422-like) signals which probabvly should be >twisted pairs. But this doens;'t explain why the thing doesn;'t work >with the cab kit direlctly plugged into the drirve. I was hoping it was a straight-through cable, but couldn't get it to work with things I had on hand. >Are you sure the drive and controlelr are working properly? No. The drive came with the VAX, which had a dead memory board (now fixed), an unusable TK50 (replaced) and a dead RD54 (which is still dead - that's the next thing to try to diagnose). The controller was bought off of e-pay, so there's no guarantee that it's functional. >I think for it to sping up at all, the thing must be focussing >correctly, which >implies the laser diode is alight, but there could be a doxen problems >with the drive. It spins up and indicates ready until I try to command it to read - then it faults. Perhaps the drive is faulty. > Have you looekd at the RF Eye pattern, for example? No, largely because I haven't any idea where to scope the drive to detect any signals. Which is back to my original question: what documentation exists for the RRD50 and KRQ50? -Rick From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Apr 28 21:28:28 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 19:28:28 -0700 Subject: Hardware vs Simh (and FPGA) In-Reply-To: <517C37ED.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51786BAB.5070607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6BBDA85A-0EC3-4F0E-A163-5F7D379BCAEB@gmail.com> <2115013.Th5oeOrRtW@i5.sytse.net> <7859DA3F-F4DF-4E7A-94FB-C478301BB6B6@gmail.com> <517B10EB.10804@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B1F98.4020607@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B20F9.7060403@neurotica.com> <517B5306.8000400@gmail.com> <517B5C50.2010301@neurotica.com> <3DBD207A-F77D-4FCE-83EC-0227E1DF95B4@gewt.net> <517B664C.3080803@jetnet.ab.ca> <517B9F1C.2080908@gmail.com> <517BE52B.30208@jetnet.ab.ca> <517C12CC.8030901@gmail.com> <9AA20946-6B7E-48F0-B3E7-881CCF673111@gmail.com> <517C37ED.8030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <636087E7-73DD-49BF-A8F5-EC62E3BEEA79@shiresoft.com> On Apr 27, 2013, at 1:41 PM, ben wrote: > > PS. I need to dig on the web to if there is a PDP-10 done yet. Yes it's been done. http://fpgaretrocomputing.org/pdp10x/ TTFN - Guy From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Apr 28 21:31:50 2013 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:31:50 -0400 Subject: on the Terasic DE0 board and general FPGA advice Message-ID: <517DDB96.9000109@verizon.net> I bought the Terasic DE0 a little while back. This board is pretty decent, and I've used it for a few different projects. Regarding documentation, the docs are overall pretty good. Pretty much everything you need is either available at Terasic site if it's a board-specific item, or at Altera's if it's FPGA specific. I don't think I've looked for one thing ever that simply was missing, or wrong. There was one thing I suggested they add as an FAQ, and despite the fact that they told me they would, they haven't. If you need to use pin K22, you need to look here http://quartushelp.altera.com/current/mergedProjects/comp/comp/comp_tab_dp_dual-purpose.htm and set the nCEO (or was it NCSO) pin as regular I/O. Otherwise: you'll get a multiple drivers error during compilation, even though YOU aren't driving it more than once. This is important for VGA applications and affects one of the BLUE signals. The user manual pretty much gives you everything you need http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=165&No=364&PartNo=4 The control panel is useful, but I think a lot of the sample apps use NIOS, and unless you are going that route, the example code isn't helpful. Quartus II (free version) is pretty decent, at least in comparison to Xilinx's ISE (that I haven't used in a couple versions). It's smaller, faster, lighter, and so on. These tools are PIGS in general, so it's all relative. Learn how to use SignalTap II, the built in the logic analyzer, and life is very good. Memory controllers are the bain of FPGA hobbyists, I made minor changes to one I found online, and it works fine on the DE0. I'd give the link, but it seems to have gone offline. I'm working on a local mirror on my site. (http://web.archive.org/web/20130123011711/http://whoyouvotefor.info/altera_sdram.html) Yes, SRAM is easier, but usually less plentiful. There aren't many other options if you want a decent amount of memory. Here's 16-channels of 5v conversion for $15 off the shelf http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/logic-sniffer-16bit-input-buffer-wing-p-721.html?cPath=61_68 Here's what I created http://techtravels.org/?p=488 Works pretty decent Recommend http://www.amazon.com/Bebop-Boolean-Boogie-Third-Edition/dp/1856175073/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367202219&sr=8-1&keywords=bebop+to+the+boolean+boogie and http://www.amazon.com/FPGA-Prototyping-Verilog-Examples-Spartan-3/dp/0470185325/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1367202247&sr=1-3&keywords=fpga+by+example or similar. Hope this helps, Keith From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sun Apr 28 12:38:36 2013 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 11:38:36 -0600 Subject: DG Compiler issue - Stand-alone lib, SOS.LB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <517D5E9C.4080104@Wild-Hare.com> G'day Erik - I will contact you off-list... Bruce On 4/25/2013 1:36 AM, Erik Baigar wrote: > > Dear DG-Addicts, > > I am running RDOS (within simh) and I can readily compile > and run Algol programs in this environment. Now want to > compile Algol programs to be loaded stand-alone onto a > 8k store machine via paper tape. To do this, a library > called SOS.LB is needed (at least the linker complains, that > it is missing) and so the question is whether some one > out there has already compiled stand alone programs > using RDOS and probably has the SOS.LB for Algol, and > eventually further files required, available? > > I already tried to get in touch with people involved in > these web sites > > http://www.chookfest.net/nova3/paper-tapes.html > http://www.ludd.luth.se/~ragge/nova/swdocs.html > > but so far I have not got hands on the Algol stand alone > stuff. BTW: I do NOT want to use the stand-alone tool > chain, but generate the programs using the RDOS (because > this is more convenient). Any hints are welcome, > > best regards, > > Erik. > > From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sun Apr 28 15:34:50 2013 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 21:34:50 +0100 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81141402AD6A4F15A509F2B9CFCDC0FC@xp32vm> The Ferranti Atlas (1962) had block addressable magnetic tapes: "The tape mechanism used on Atlas is the Ampex TM2 (improved FR 300) using one inch wide magnetic tape. There are sixteen tracks across the tape - twelve information tracks, two clock tracks, and two tracks used for reference purposes. The tapes are used in a fixed-block, pre-addressed mode. Information is stored on tape in blocks of 512 forty-eight bit words, together with a twenty-four bit checksum with end around carry. Each block is preceded by a block address and block marker and terminated by a block marker; the leading block address is sequential along the tape, and what is effectively the trailing block address is always zero. Tapes are tested and pre-addressed by special routines before being put into use, and the fixed position of the addresses permits selective overwriting and simple omission of faulty patches on the tape. Blocks can be read when the tape is moving either in the forward or reverse direction, but writing is only possible when the tape is moving forward. The double read and write head is used to check read when writing on the tape. When not operating the tape stops with the read head midway between blocks." Quoted from The Atlas Supervisor T Kilburn, R B Payne, D J Howarth 1962 Of course, these drives and media are likely to be even harder to obtain (to say the least!) than DECtape :) While on the subject of Atlas and referencing another thread on this list it would be a /real/ challenge to implement on an FPGA - Not for the lack of circuit diagrams (I understand several copies still exist) Not for the use of "wired-or" (don't know if Atlas used this logic technique, but several later Ferranti machines did) But because it used asynchronous logic which is contrary to the design philosophy of FPGAs (and almost all other modern logic for that matter) Andy From sales at elecplus.com Mon Apr 29 08:46:20 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 08:46:20 -0500 Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: <201304290009.r3T09wXk018012@rickmurphy.net> References: <201304281324.r3SDOTpE032247@rickmurphy.net> <201304290009.r3T09wXk018012@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <01ae01ce44df$ee84f610$cb8ee230$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Murphy Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 7:10 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: RRD50 Cable documentation Perhaps this will help a little: http://www.science-bbs.com/65-electronics/a8839c7eaad8cce5.htm http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/1998/01/20/0008.html http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?cc=emea_middle_east&lc=ar&dlc=ar &tmp_geoLoc=true&docname=c00300437 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6281 - Release Date: 04/28/13 From bob at jfcl.com Mon Apr 29 09:33:40 2013 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 07:33:40 -0700 Subject: Calling Tony Eros Message-ID: <001c01ce44e6$8b2d4610$a187d230$@com> Tony Eros - if you want your SBC6120, please contact me off list (or just respond to one of the other emails that I've sent you about it!). That's it. Sorry to waste bandwidth on this, but Tony appears to be a tough guy to get in touch with. Bob Armstrong From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 29 09:36:43 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 08:36:43 -0600 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: <81141402AD6A4F15A509F2B9CFCDC0FC@xp32vm> References: <81141402AD6A4F15A509F2B9CFCDC0FC@xp32vm> Message-ID: <517E857B.1010103@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/28/2013 2:34 PM, Andy Holt wrote: > While on the subject of Atlas and referencing another thread on this list it > would be a /real/ challenge to implement on an FPGA - > Not for the lack of circuit diagrams (I understand several copies still > exist) > Not for the use of "wired-or" (don't know if Atlas used this logic > technique, but several later Ferranti machines did) > But because it used asynchronous logic which is contrary to the design > philosophy of FPGAs (and almost all other modern logic for that matter) It justs fucks up the timing routines. I have allways thought the async logic requires glitch free gates, and that may be a problem. > Andy > Ben. From sales at elecplus.com Mon Apr 29 10:45:11 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 10:45:11 -0500 Subject: UK recycler Message-ID: <02ca01ce44f0$88b73170$9a259450$@com> For those of you looking for recyclers in the UK where you might be able to scrounge, or ask them to save interesting bits, please take a look at this company. They caught my interest because they exclusively employ disabled/disadvantaged workers. Nice to see a company that helps others out! About Haven Recycle Haven Recycle is a social enterprise based in Glasgow which runs a Waste Electrical & Electronic Equipment (WEEE) recycling and asset recovery operation. We are part of the Rehab Recycle group, servicing a number of large public and private sector organisations including Dell, Microsoft and the NHS. The services we offer include removal and disposal of all waste electrical equipment, secure data destruction both on and off site, office clearouts, asset recovery and re-marketing. We will seek to achieve maximum value from your waste material, with the absolute minimum going to landfill. The aim being wherever possible to reuse, and recycle all Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment. All work undertaken is fully compliant with all relevant legislation, and carried out to the highest possible standards demanded by the market. While operating as a business, Haven Recycle is also a social enterprise; our unique attribute being that the majority of our highly skilled and comprehensively trained workforce comprises of disabled and disadvantaged adults. We carry out ongoing programmes of training and integration to ensure that all our work is carried out to the highest possible standards demanded by the market, and our impressive client list is a testament to this. As such our customers can contribute significantly to their Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) simply by engaging Haven Recycle as a supplier. Specialties WEEE Recycling, Asset Recovery, Information Security Management, Corporate Social Responsibility, Data Destruction - on & off site, CESG Approved Data Erasure - on & off site, ISO 9001 accredited, ISO 14001 accredited, SEPA Waste Management License: WML/L/1099035 . Headquarters 6 - 8 Watt Road Hillington ParkGlasgow, G52 4RY United Kingdom . Website http://www.havenrecycle.co.uk . Industry Renewables & Environment . Type Nonprofit . Company Size 11-50 employees . Founded 1946 _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6281 - Release Date: 04/28/13 From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 10:59:25 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 11:59:25 -0400 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: <517E857B.1010103@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <81141402AD6A4F15A509F2B9CFCDC0FC@xp32vm> <517E857B.1010103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Apr 29, 2013, at 10:36 AM, ben wrote: > On 4/28/2013 2:34 PM, Andy Holt wrote: > >> While on the subject of Atlas and referencing another thread on this list it >> would be a /real/ challenge to implement on an FPGA - >> Not for the lack of circuit diagrams (I understand several copies still >> exist) >> Not for the use of "wired-or" (don't know if Atlas used this logic >> technique, but several later Ferranti machines did) >> But because it used asynchronous logic which is contrary to the design >> philosophy of FPGAs (and almost all other modern logic for that matter) > > It justs fucks up the timing routines. I have allways thought the async > logic requires glitch free gates, and that may be a problem. Yes, the static timing analyzers are really built for synchronous designs. You can do asynchronous logic with glitches, but you then have to carry a strobe with you, which almost defeats the point. There's an FPGA company called Achronix whose first FPGA offerings claimed to be reaping the benefits of clockless logic, but I don't see that anywhere in their literature now (their name still belies their origins, though). Clockless logic is something that comes up now and then in ASIC and FPGA circles, but it never seems to pan out (I remember Sun doing something with it about a decade ago as well). I don't know if it's because the tools are too hard to design or what, but there must be some reason it never comes to anything (or at least hasn't since the late '60s). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 11:02:31 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:02:31 -0400 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: References: <81141402AD6A4F15A509F2B9CFCDC0FC@xp32vm> <517E857B.1010103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Apr 29, 2013, at 11:59 AM, David Riley wrote: > Yes, the static timing analyzers are really built for synchronous > designs. You can do asynchronous logic with glitches, but you > then have to carry a strobe with you, which almost defeats the > point. There's an FPGA company called Achronix whose first FPGA > offerings claimed to be reaping the benefits of clockless logic, > but I don't see that anywhere in their literature now (their name > still belies their origins, though). Whoops, spoke too soon. They're still talking about it. http://www.achronix.com/technology/picopipe.html Wonder how well it integrates with traditional HDLs. I've never actually worked with Achronix devices, but they certainly seem to occupy the high end and have things like 100Gbps Ethernet hard IP MAC cores built in; that's some pretty serious stuff. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 29 12:30:25 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 10:30:25 -0700 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: References: <81141402AD6A4F15A509F2B9CFCDC0FC@xp32vm> <517E857B.1010103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <517EAE31.1090708@sydex.com> Probably the "big daddy" of all of the block-addressable tape systems would be the Control Data SCROLL device. Never made it to production and mentioned here only: http://special.lib.umn.edu/findaid/xml/cbi00080-07.xml There might be other mentions in publications of the time (ca. 1971-75); I know that it was attached as boilerplate for several proposals that I worked on. Basically, a very wide tape, where between the supply and takeup spools was positioned a head-per-track spinning drum, with the tape being wrapped, VHS-style, around the drum. The block accessed by the head could be accessed by simply moving the tape under the heads. Another one of those whacky ADL projects, I never saw an operating one, but doubtless there are patents on it. Maybe CHM has some documents on it--and the STAR Drum, a freaky ultra-high-speed drum spinning on magnetic bearings in vacuo. Were the tapes used in the IBM 3850 block-addressable? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 29 12:45:25 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 10:45:25 -0700 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: References: <81141402AD6A4F15A509F2B9CFCDC0FC@xp32vm> <517E857B.1010103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <517EB1B5.6030409@sydex.com> Found a mention of CDC SCROLL here: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA034437 A few other interesting large-storage devices described as well. By 1975, SCROLL was a dead project. --Chuck From davestokie at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 13:02:08 2013 From: davestokie at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 19:02:08 +0100 Subject: Old computer equipment information and value Message-ID: Hi, I have been advised to post here for some information about some old computer equipment I have. What I seek is advise on the value or how to find the value and sell the following items: 2x 3M data cartrage desktop storage file 3X (1 opened, 2 sealed) 3M data cartrages DC6151 1X Diaspron Total Shield, 12" 1x Selmar Multi-way distribution block (extension lead with a standard plug and 6 'kettle' sockets) 2X leads with 'kettle' plug and socket 2x leads with 'kettle' plug and 2 in plug 30x leads with kettle plug - nothing on other end I realise the leads have very little value, but I am unsure about the rest. Thanks for your time Dave. From radioengr at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 14:56:58 2013 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:56:58 -0700 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: References: <81141402AD6A4F15A509F2B9CFCDC0FC@xp32vm> <517E857B.1010103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <517ED08A.4080003@gmail.com> On 4/29/2013 8:59 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 29, 2013, at 10:36 AM, ben wrote: > >> On 4/28/2013 2:34 PM, Andy Holt wrote: >> >>> While on the subject of Atlas and referencing another thread on this list it >>> would be a /real/ challenge to implement on an FPGA - >>> Not for the lack of circuit diagrams (I understand several copies still >>> exist) >>> Not for the use of "wired-or" (don't know if Atlas used this logic >>> technique, but several later Ferranti machines did) >>> But because it used asynchronous logic which is contrary to the design >>> philosophy of FPGAs (and almost all other modern logic for that matter) >> >> It justs fucks up the timing routines. I have allways thought the async >> logic requires glitch free gates, and that may be a problem. > > Yes, the static timing analyzers are really built for synchronous > designs. You can do asynchronous logic with glitches, but you > then have to carry a strobe with you, which almost defeats the > point. There's an FPGA company called Achronix whose first FPGA > offerings claimed to be reaping the benefits of clockless logic, > but I don't see that anywhere in their literature now (their name > still belies their origins, though). > > Clockless logic is something that comes up now and then in ASIC > and FPGA circles, but it never seems to pan out (I remember Sun > doing something with it about a decade ago as well). I don't > know if it's because the tools are too hard to design or what, > but there must be some reason it never comes to anything (or at > least hasn't since the late '60s). > There is an IBM1130 CPU that is accurately implemented using asynchronous logic in a standard FPGA. See: http://ibm1130.blogspot.com/ This technique is probably not for the timid. Rob. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 15:11:17 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 16:11:17 -0400 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: <517ED08A.4080003@gmail.com> References: <81141402AD6A4F15A509F2B9CFCDC0FC@xp32vm> <517E857B.1010103@jetnet.ab.ca> <517ED08A.4080003@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Rob Doyle wrote: > On 4/29/2013 8:59 AM, David Riley wrote: >> Clockless logic is something that comes up now and then in ASIC >> and FPGA circles, but it never seems to pan out (I remember Sun >> doing something with it about a decade ago as well). I don't >> know if it's because the tools are too hard to design or what, >> but there must be some reason it never comes to anything (or at >> least hasn't since the late '60s). >> > > There is an IBM1130 CPU that is accurately implemented using > asynchronous logic in a standard FPGA. > > See: http://ibm1130.blogspot.com/ > > This technique is probably not for the timid. I think the 360/30 FPGA (http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/vhdl/) does the same. To be clear, it's DOABLE on an FPGA, but the timing analyzers don't like it very much. Add to that the fact that the built-in flip flops are strictly edge triggered in most technologies and you have a hard time doing something as simple as an RS latch (some of the true CPLDs around, like Xilinx's CoolRunner line, still have true RS options available, but they're very small). In general, if you're looking to implement something that was originally designed around asynchronous logic in a modern FPGA, you're generally better off trying to figure out how to make it run with synchronous logic instead of implementing it 100% faithfully to the schematic. A lot of the time, it's actually not particularly hard to do; for example, microprocessor RD and WR lines often implicitly act as clocks, which you can use to your advantage when coding bus interfaces that use them. - Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 29 15:24:57 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 21:24:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: <201304290009.r3T09wXk018012@rickmurphy.net> from "Rick Murphy" at Apr 28, 13 08:09:56 pm Message-ID: > >A DA15 conenctor on a CD-ROM drive suggests the old Philips/LMS (Laser > >Magnetic Storage) interface. I have the service manual dfor one such > >drive used o na PCB) whihch gives the interface pinout. > > > >If that's right, the cambe would be straight-0through, but there are a > >couple of differnetial (RS422-like) signals which probabvly should be > >twisted pairs. But this doens;'t explain why the thing doesn;'t work > >with the cab kit direlctly plugged into the drirve. > > I was hoping it was a straight-through cable, but couldn't get it to > work with things I had on hand. I would be suprised it it wasn't a straight-through cable. If it is the Philips-type interface, the basic signals are the bitstream from the CD (after a little processing in the drive, it's up to the controller to extract the parts it wants), and a serial command/status interface to select a track, etc. I doubt that an AUI cable wil lwork, as that only has 8 pins used (4 trissted pairs -- transmit, receive, collison and power), but as I said, I would think that directly conenctign tyhe drive to the cab kit should work. > > >Are you sure the drive and controller are working properly? > > No. The drive came with the VAX, which had a dead memory board (now > fixed), an unusable TK50 (replaced) and a dead RD54 (which is still > dead - that's the next thing to try to diagnose). > The controller was bought off of e-pay, so there's no guarantee that > it's functional. Ah.... Are there any recgnisable ICs o nthe controller and the drive? If it is a Philis/LMS unit, it's likely that the preamplier is a standard Philips part and that it would be possible to find the RF test point. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 16:06:25 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 16:06:25 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches Message-ID: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> I acquired an Apple IIe at the dump the other day (and a pair of IIgs machines, sans keyboards/mice - more on those later, probably). Something heavy has been dropped on the keyboard - there's no damage to the keytops (amazingly), but the keyboard PCB is cracked and the frame mounting points bent, and in testing switches around the damaged area I've found that the '=' key is permanently shorted (I assume it took the brunt of the impact from whatever-it-was, unless the switches in these machines are prone to decay and subsequent shorting). Anyway, is it just a case of desoldering the switch and prying it out of the metal frame, or is there more to it than that? I did try a little careful coaxing and it didn't want to move, but I don't want to try more force if it's the wrong approach. cheers Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 16:32:54 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 17:32:54 -0400 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 29, 2013, at 17:06, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I acquired an Apple IIe at the dump the other day (and a pair of IIgs machines, sans keyboards/mice - more on those later, probably). Not sure about the IIe keyboard repairs, but the IIgs uses the same ADB keyboards and mice that the Mac does. I have some spares if you need some. - Dave From mike at fenz.net Mon Apr 29 16:42:28 2013 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 09:42:28 +1200 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> Message-ID: Vague memories from 25 or 30 years ago, and maybe from the wrong model of II... the keyswitches have a couple of little tabs on each side on the keycap side (top) of the KB. They need to be squeezed in to release the keyswitch. If they are, and the pins are free, the keyswitch should come out, but they usually need a fair bit of persuading even then. Speaking of which, I need some replacement keyswitches and caps for IIs and IIes. The Reset cap for a II Plus for a start. There are differences between the keyswitches between models too, but I don't recall how significant they are. (And top-posting... for some reason this webmail client won't let me do anything else. Hooray for that.) On 30/04/2013 09:06, Jules Richardson wrote: > I acquired an Apple IIe at the dump the other day (and a pair of IIgs > machines, sans keyboards/mice - more on those later, probably). > > Something heavy has been dropped on the keyboard - there's no damage to the > keytops (amazingly), but the keyboard PCB is cracked and the frame mounting > points bent, and in testing switches around the damaged area I've found > that the '=' key is permanently shorted (I assume it took the brunt of the > impact from whatever-it-was, unless the switches in these machines are > prone to decay and subsequent shorting). > > Anyway, is it just a case of desoldering the switch and prying it out of > the metal frame, or is there more to it than that? I did try a little > careful coaxing and it didn't want to move, but I don't want to try more > force if it's the wrong approach. > > cheers > > Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 16:52:15 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 17:52:15 -0400 Subject: CQD-220 and CD-ROM redux Message-ID: <22E70966-950D-43C2-962D-010518DA4905@gmail.com> After several days of trying to coax reliable results out of my Pioneer DR-US124X CD drive on the CQD-220, I finally gave up and acquired a proper Plextor drive. The Pioneer had various issues, some of which may just be due to it being in bad shape - I'll have to test it out on some of my Macs to see if that's the case. In case anyone stumbles upon this in an archive, I thought I'd list the symptoms: - After it warmed up, it would throw errors when operated in sync mode, even in the CQD-220's built-in drive test - When not in sync mode, it would work on the built-in test, but would periodically just stop responding. VMS would eventually (after a good 5 minutes or so) give up and declare it "not software enabled". This had an annoying tendency to happen during lengthy installs. - All the other drives in the SCSI chain (a hard drive, a Zip drive and a Jaz drive) seemed to work just fine, so I'm relatively sure it wasn't a termination issue. And yes, the drive was jumpered to 512 byte blocks. It would boot the VMS install CD without the jumper, but it would never proceed to executing the standalone BACKUP program. Someone was selling a 20x Plextor drive on eBay for a pretty good price, so I snapped it up. It's worked 100% reliably since I plugged it in. Perhaps their SCSI implementation is more compliant? All I know is that they have an extremely good reputation, and their user manuals seem to be cognizant of the various reasons you might want to run in 512-byte block mode. - Dave From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 29 17:03:24 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 15:03:24 -0700 Subject: CQD-220 and CD-ROM redux In-Reply-To: <22E70966-950D-43C2-962D-010518DA4905@gmail.com> References: <22E70966-950D-43C2-962D-010518DA4905@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:52 PM -0400 4/29/13, David Riley wrote: >Someone was selling a 20x Plextor drive on eBay for a pretty good >price, so I snapped it up. It's worked 100% reliably since I plugged >it in. Perhaps their SCSI implementation is more compliant? All I >know is that they have an extremely good reputation, and their user >manuals seem to be cognizant of the various reasons you might want to >run in 512-byte block mode. I use a Plextor 8x drive on my PDP-11/73 with a Viking QDT card. I consider the old Plextor drives to be the best SCSI CD-ROM drives made. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 29 17:39:53 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 15:39:53 -0700 Subject: Asynchronous logic, was ? Re: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: References: <81141402AD6A4F15A509F2B9CFCDC0FC@xp32vm> <517E857B.1010103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <517EF6B9.7000401@sydex.com> On 04/29/2013 08:59 AM, David Riley wrote: > > Yes, the static timing analyzers are really built for synchronous > designs. You can do asynchronous logic with glitches, but you > then have to carry a strobe with you, which almost defeats the > point. There's an FPGA company called Achronix whose first FPGA > offerings claimed to be reaping the benefits of clockless logic, > but I don't see that anywhere in their literature now (their name > still belies their origins, though). Is this an accidental a cross-post from the FPGA-SIMH discussion? If not, I can't figure out how the subject of block-addressable tape swung around to embrace the subject of clockless logic. Wasn't the Philco System 2000 an asynchronous system? And weren't there certain bipolar multipliers (TRW?) that operated clocklessly and had a "done" status line? Just trying to remember. --Chuck From arrowrunner at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 19:33:00 2013 From: arrowrunner at gmail.com (Beau Walker) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 20:33:00 -0400 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > > > Vague memories from 25 or 30 years ago, and maybe from the wrong > model of II... the keyswitches have a couple of little tabs on each side > on the keycap side (top) of the KB. They need to be squeezed in to > release the keyswitch. If they are, and the pins are free, the keyswitch > should come out, but they usually need a fair bit of persuading even > then. > > Speaking of which, I need some replacement keyswitches and caps > for IIs and IIes. The Reset cap for a II Plus for a start. There are > differences between the keyswitches between models too, but I don't > recall how significant they are. > > (And top-posting... for some reason > this webmail client won't let me do anything else. Hooray for that.) > > > On 30/04/2013 09:06, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I acquired an Apple > IIe at the dump the other day (and a pair of IIgs > > machines, sans > keyboards/mice - more on those later, probably). > > > > Something heavy > has been dropped on the keyboard - there's no damage to the > > keytops > (amazingly), but the keyboard PCB is cracked and the frame mounting > > > points bent, and in testing switches around the damaged area I've found > > > that the '=' key is permanently shorted (I assume it took the brunt > of the > > impact from whatever-it-was, unless the switches in these > machines are > > prone to decay and subsequent shorting). > > > > Anyway, is > it just a case of desoldering the switch and prying it out of > > the > metal frame, or is there more to it than that? I did try a little > > > careful coaxing and it didn't want to move, but I don't want to try more > > > force if it's the wrong approach. > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > I just had to pull a key switch out of my IIc and it was an easy job. Just 4 solder joints. There was some oxidation on the inside of the switch. After I cleeeeeeeeaned it off it stoppeeeeeeed typing likeeeeeeeee this. -- Sent from My Hippopotamus From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 19:52:01 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 19:52:01 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> On 04/29/2013 04:42 PM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > Vague memories from 25 or 30 years ago, and maybe from the wrong > model of II... the keyswitches have a couple of little tabs on each side > on the keycap side (top) of the KB. They need to be squeezed in to > release the keyswitch. That did the trick - there was so much crud under the keytops that I didn't realize earlier that they were tabs holding the switch in place (I thought they were just something holding the switch body itself together). Thanks! After removing the switch, I dismantled the switch body and found that one of the metal pieces inside had been bent out of shape (the solder joints for this switch had failed on the PCB due to the impact, and evidently when the PCB rebounded after, the metal pins on the underside of the switch had been pushed back into the switch body, buckling one of the plates inside). Anyway, I did some very careful straightening and all seems to be well again. Next task is to bridge the broken keyboard PCB tracks, and then fingers crossed I'll have a working system. Without the keyboard plugged in it displays garbage color blocks on the screen and occasionally utters a string of beeps; thinking that the keyboard was entirely passive, I just spent some time checking PSU voltages, reseating ICs etc. before finding an old VCF forum post hinting that this might be the correct behavior in absence of a keyboard. D'oh! :-) cheers Jules From mike at fenz.net Mon Apr 29 20:33:08 2013 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 13:33:08 +1200 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> No problems, glad it helped! Again without much confidence in my memory, I think the IIe runs its self-test if there's no keyboard attached. However, that's more regular-looking (and sounding) than what you're describing, and should end with the message "KERNEL OK" after a minute or so. Still, see what happens when the KB is done I guess... On 30/04/2013 12:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/29/2013 04:42 PM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > >> Vague memories from 25 or 30 years ago, and maybe from the wrong model of II... the keyswitches have a couple of little tabs on each side on the keycap side (top) of the KB. They need to be squeezed in to release the keyswitch. > > That did the trick - there was so much crud under the keytops that I didn't > realize earlier that they were tabs holding the switch in place (I thought > they were just something holding the switch body itself together). Thanks! > > After removing the switch, I dismantled the switch body and found that one > of the metal pieces inside had been bent out of shape (the solder joints > for this switch had failed on the PCB due to the impact, and evidently when > the PCB rebounded after, the metal pins on the underside of the switch had > been pushed back into the switch body, buckling one of the plates inside). > Anyway, I did some very careful straightening and all seems to be well again. > > Next task is to bridge the broken keyboard PCB tracks, and then fingers > crossed I'll have a working system. Without the keyboard plugged in it > displays garbage color blocks on the screen and occasionally utters a > string of beeps; thinking that the keyboard was entirely passive, I just > spent some time checking PSU voltages, reseating ICs etc. before finding an > old VCF forum post hinting that this might be the correct behavior in > absence of a keyboard. D'oh! :-) > > cheers > > Jules From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Apr 29 20:42:53 2013 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 21:42:53 -0400 Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: References: <201304290009.r3T09wXk018012@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <201304300142.r3U1guVv005602@rickmurphy.net> At 04:24 PM 4/29/2013, Tony Duell wrote: >I would be suprised it it wasn't a straight-through cable. If it is the >Philips-type interface, the basic signals are the bitstream from the CD >(after a little processing in the drive, it's up to the controller to >extract the parts it wants), and a serial command/status interface to >select a track, etc. There's 5 twisted pairs feeding each of the two DA15's in the cab kit. If I had info on the physical interface (which is apparently called "LMSI" in a lot of places, including Sound Blaster cards that implement the interface), I could figure out some potential cabling. >I doubt that an AUI cable wil lwork, as that only >has 8 pins used (4 trissted pairs -- transmit, receive, collison and >power), but as I said, I would think that directly conenctign tyhe drive >to the cab kit should work. That's what I assumed. The AUI cable was the only thing on hand here that was already built :) I've got DA15 shells if I could figure out what needed to be hooked up. > > > > >Are you sure the drive and controller are working properly? > > > > No. The drive came with the VAX, which had a dead memory board (now > > fixed), an unusable TK50 (replaced) and a dead RD54 (which is still > > dead - that's the next thing to try to diagnose). > > The controller was bought off of e-pay, so there's no guarantee that > > it's functional. > >Ah.... Are there any recgnisable ICs o nthe controller and the drive? If >it is a Philis/LMS unit, it's likely that the preamplier is a standard >Philips part and that it would be possible to find the RF test point. On the KRQ50, the two chips closest to the connector for the cab kit are AMLS2632PC RS422 quad line receivers. There's an AMLS2630PO RS422 quad line driver chip as well that's nearby. The rest of the board is either standard QBUS glue logic, a bunch of PALs, and an 80186 CPU with firmware in a couple of EPROMs. Nothing much to build on. I'm going to try to trace the cab kit connectors to the 2630/2632 when I get a chance to see what's happening there. I haven't touched the drive. That's got to be the place to do any effective testing. Apparently the cable is a BC18R-06 if anyone has a pointer to documentation on such things. -Rick From dave13 at dunfield.com Mon Apr 29 21:54:27 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 21:54:27 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? Message-ID: <517F2453.28474.1E77BD6@dave13.dunfield.com> >That was the end of my successes. > >testfdc sees the drive, but only 300kB DD seems to work. I tried making >an image with the 1.2MB drive, but every sector said write error: no >data, so I gave up. >Then, I took a working Kaypro drive and put it in the PC, and tried >testfdc. I overrode it as 360kb 5.25 drive, and testfdc finds the >drive, but it immediately gives up stating "!No FDC Interrupt" > >So, if there is "a way to do it...", it continues to elude me. An assortment of notes: You need to boot to real/raw DOS ... IMD doesn't work under windows. If you are booting from a floppy, know that IMD reconfigures the controller rendering it inaccessable by DOS while IMD is accessing the disk - so it can't read/write the image file from/to a different floppy. I have a boot disk image on my site that boots and runs from a RAMdisk and contains network tools to transfer the image off (or you can ZIP it to a floppy after IMD is finished). If you are booting to real/raw DOS ... does the drive work under DOS.? Can you FORMAT 1.2M and 360k disks under DOS and read/write them.? If not, you have a hardware problem (for DOS, make sure it is configured correctly in BIOS - IMD doesn't use BIOS settings though). Make sure you are using DD media, and NOT HD media - for 5.25" diskettes, DD media usually has a reenforcing ring around the edge of the center hole, and HD diskettes usually do not have it 1.2M drive spins at 360rpm ... DD drive spins at 300rpm ... my Keypro disks were read on a real DD drive, so they are encoded at 250kbps. If you write them to a 1.2M spinning at 360rpm, you need to set a speed translate 250->300 in order for the density to come out right. My docs and help contain more details on this. I assume It goes without saying, but to use 1 2M drive, you need an AT or later style controller capable of handing HD drives. If you use a DD only controller, you need to tell IMD this - there's a command line option - note that this would only work on DD drives (obviously). I've had issues with 300kbps on certain controllers - mostly with single- desnity (IIRC k4 disks don't use SD) --- I've got info on my site on modifying 1.2M drive to run at 300rpm/250kbps which may work better for you. Also IIRC, some of my kay disks have an extra SD track-40 (41), which existed on the original disks ... I doubt it's required, but I left the images exactly as read when I posted them - if your setup only fails on track-40, try the disks as they will probably work anyway. 1.2M drive is a 96tpi drive. Kaypro disks are for 48tpi drives - you will need to set double-stepping when recreating the disks -- otherwise you won't be able to read them in the 48tpi DD drive. 96tpi drives (like your 1.2M) lay down thinner tracks than 48tpi drives (regular DD drives) - you may have issues reading disks that were written on 48tpi, then re-written on 96tpi, then read on 48tpi ... note that most of the time it works for me, and it would not be the cause of errors writing and reading on the 96tpi drive ... only reading them on the 48tpi after rewriting them on 96tpi ... you can bulk erase the disk prior to creating it in the 96tpi drive if this is causing you grief. If none of the above help, get back to me with exactly what your hardware setup is, what media you are using, what speed your drive is running (There's a test-RPM command in IMD) - and I'll try to come up with some more suggestions. Dave PS: Regarding using TM-100 in PC ... I believe I have gotten one to work, but I find more "modern" 1/2 height DD drives much easier to work with on a PC - PC expects drive to be jumpered as drive 2 (or 1 if counting from zero) and has issues with signals due to it's "rolled cable". IRC you need to jumper the drive (or connector) to provide motor-on with select - it's been quite a while since I worked with one of these drives on a PC. PPS: I've got about 2 dozen "nearly new" Teac 1/2 height DD drives in a box in my basement - If anyone needs one, get in touch with me and we can work something out. -- dave13 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield System/Firmware development services: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Apr 29 20:54:49 2013 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 21:54:49 -0400 Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201304300154.r3U1spbM005906@rickmurphy.net> At 01:55 PM 4/29/2013, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: >If all else fails, I can take a voltmeter to my cable and make you a >pinout table. Let me know. Hopefully it won't come to that. However, a simple test might suffice. The first twisted pair connects to pins 1 and 9 on the DA15F cab kit connector. (The other pairs are 2/10, 3/11, 4/12, and 5/13.) Is pin 1 on the female end of your cable connected to pin 1 on the male end? Is pin 9 connected to pin 9? If you can tell me where pin 1 goes and where pin 9 goes, I can very likely reproduce a usable cable, assuming that the DEC controller side mirrors the signal order on the drive side. Knowing those 5 pairs is enough to guarantee a matching cable - the rest of the pins don't matter. -Rick From dave13 at dunfield.com Mon Apr 29 22:04:04 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 22:04:04 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? Message-ID: <517F2694.23085.1F04912@dave13.dunfield.com> >Yes, it's possible to write a 360k disk in a 1.2MB drive. See >http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2010-02-18-writing-cpm-from-1.2mb-disks.htm Bulk-erasing before writing on a 96tpi and NOT re-writing on a 48tpi is a good tip, and does work. However (from the references web page): >A further tip: when writing new floppies with IMD (to generate original Kaypro bundled >software for example), I found it easiest to Format the floppy under 22DISK first, as it >knows the correct settings for a Kaypro floppy, then use IMD to write to the formatted >floppy. Doing this meant the only setting I had to set on IMD is the Double Step (as I >have a 1.2MB (80 track) drive, not a 360KB (40 track) drive. Makes no sense. IMD knows the exact format of the particular disk that it is writing as this was determined at the time it was read, and is represented in the metadata of the IMD file - it also formats the disk as it writes it, removing any previous formatting. And ... if he's writing on a 1.2M drive (presumed in a HD controller) , he WILL need to set a 250->300kbps translation in addition to double-stepping in order to write the disks. Dave -- dave13 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield System/Firmware development services: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 29 21:08:43 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 14:08:43 +1200 Subject: My Mattel Aquarius on YouTube Message-ID: The dawning of the Age of Aquarius. A new collection video looking at this short-lived 1983 offering from Mattel. http://youtu.be/YpzHPfqKLb8 Terry (Tez) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 29 21:28:13 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 19:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <517F2694.23085.1F04912@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <517F2694.23085.1F04912@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20130429191701.V95714@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 29 Apr 2013, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >A further tip: when writing new floppies with IMD (to generate original Kaypro bundled > >software for example), I found it easiest to Format the floppy under 22DISK first, as it > >knows the correct settings for a Kaypro floppy, then use IMD to write to the formatted > >floppy. Doing this meant the only setting I had to set on IMD is the Double Step (as I > >have a 1.2MB (80 track) drive, not a 360KB (40 track) drive. > Makes no sense. IMD knows the exact format of the particular disk that it is writing > as this was determined at the time it was read, and is represented in the metadata > of the IMD file - it also formats the disk as it writes it, removing any previous formatting. > And ... if he's writing on a 1.2M drive (presumed in a HD controller) , he WILL need to > set a 250->300kbps translation in addition to double-stepping in order to write the disks. Could part of the confusion there be that SOME 1.2M drives are 360RPM only, and therefore require the 300kbps data transfer rate, and SOME 1.2M drive are 360RPM/300RPM, and when in a 300RPM mode can use the 250Kbps data transfer rate? I can not tell from the original description whether he is having a problem accessing the drives with the PC, using IMD, having 360K/1.2M problems, or problems back on the Kaypro. Using a DD drive on the PC would eliminate at least 1/4 of the possibilities of what is going wrong. AFTER getting a successful sequence of steps, THEN he can mess with the additional issues of using 1.2M to write 360K. (Yes, I am well aware that Kaypro has 200K/400K on their disks. "360K" is the unambiquous term for such drives and diskettes.) Good luck! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 29 21:29:51 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 14:29:51 +1200 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <517F2694.23085.1F04912@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <517F2694.23085.1F04912@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: >>A further tip: when writing new floppies with IMD (to generate original Kaypro bundled >>software for example), I found it easiest to Format the floppy under 22DISK first, as it >>knows the correct settings for a Kaypro floppy, then use IMD to write to the formatted >>floppy. Doing this meant the only setting I had to set on IMD is the Double Step (as I >>have a 1.2MB (80 track) drive, not a 360KB (40 track) drive. >Makes no sense. IMD knows the exact format of the particular disk that it is writing >as this was determined at the time it was read, and is represented in the metadata >of the IMD file - it also formats the disk as it writes it, removing any previous formatting. >And ... if he's writing on a 1.2M drive (presumed in a HD controller) , he WILL need to >set a 250->300kbps translation in addition to double-stepping in order to write the disks. Philip Avery is coming to see me this weekend. I'll ask him what prompted him to write that. Terry (Tez) From brain at jbrain.com Mon Apr 29 21:53:35 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 21:53:35 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <517F2453.28474.1E77BD6@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <517F2453.28474.1E77BD6@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <517F322F.9050209@jbrain.com> On 4/29/2013 9:54 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > An assortment of notes: > > You need to boot to real/raw DOS ... IMD doesn't work under windows. > If you are booting from a floppy, know that IMD reconfigures the controller > rendering it inaccessable by DOS while IMD is accessing the disk - so > it can't read/write the image file from/to a different floppy. I have a boot disk > image on my site that boots and runs from a RAMdisk and contains network > tools to transfer the image off (or you can ZIP it to a floppy after IMD is > finished). Booted to DOS 5.0, on AT class machine, drive B set to 1.2MB, formats and writes/reads disks fine. imd has been copied to HD, as well as IMD image. > > If you are booting to real/raw DOS ... does the drive work under DOS.? Yes > Can you FORMAT 1.2M and 360k disks under DOS and read/write > them.? If not, you have a hardware problem (for DOS, make sure it is > configured correctly in BIOS - IMD doesn't use BIOS settings though). Works fine > > Make sure you are using DD media, and NOT HD media - for 5.25" > diskettes, DD media usually has a reenforcing ring around the edge > of the center hole, and HD diskettes usually do not have it DD media, same as I use for CBM drives > > 1.2M drive spins at 360rpm ... DD drive spins at 300rpm ... my Keypro > disks were read on a real DD drive, so they are encoded at 250kbps. > If you write them to a 1.2M spinning at 360rpm, you need to set a speed > translate 250->300 in order for the density to come out right. My docs > and help contain more details on this. I set the 300->250 setting, as per the imda output. > > I assume It goes without saying, but to use 1 2M drive, you need an > AT or later style controller capable of handing HD drives. If you use a > DD only controller, you need to tell IMD this - there's a command line > option - note that this would only work on DD drives (obviously). No, PII class machine, integrated FDC. > > I've had issues with 300kbps on certain controllers - mostly with single- > desnity (IIRC k4 disks don't use SD) --- I've got info on my site on > modifying 1.2M drive to run at 300rpm/250kbps which may work better > for you. > > Also IIRC, some of my kay disks have an extra SD track-40 (41), which > existed on the original disks ... I doubt it's required, but I left the images > exactly as read when I posted them - if your setup only fails on track-40, > try the disks as they will probably work anyway. Tried, no go. > > 1.2M drive is a 96tpi drive. Kaypro disks are for 48tpi drives - you will > need to set double-stepping when recreating the disks -- otherwise > you won't be able to read them in the 48tpi DD drive. double setting was set. > > 96tpi drives (like your 1.2M) lay down thinner tracks than 48tpi drives > (regular DD drives) - you may have issues reading disks that were > written on 48tpi, then re-written on 96tpi, then read on 48tpi ... note > that most of the time it works for me, and it would not be the cause of > errors writing and reading on the 96tpi drive ... only reading them on > the 48tpi after rewriting them on 96tpi ... you can bulk erase the disk > prior to creating it in the 96tpi drive if this is causing you grief. I didn't get a chance to try them on a real unit. > > If none of the above help, get back to me with exactly what your hardware > setup is, what media you are using, what speed your drive is running > (There's a test-RPM command in IMD) - and I'll try to come up with some > more suggestions. ASUS ME99B motherboard Celeron 366 CPU TEAC FD-55GFR DOS 5.0 360rpm (from IMD), DSDD media > > Dave > > PS: Regarding using TM-100 in PC ... I believe I have gotten one to work, > but I find more "modern" 1/2 height DD drives much easier to work with on > a PC - PC expects drive to be jumpered as drive 2 (or 1 if counting from > zero) and has issues with signals due to it's "rolled cable". IRC you need to > jumper the drive (or connector) to provide motor-on with select - it's been > quite a while since I worked with one of these drives on a PC. IT finds the drive, spins it up, but immediately errs out with the error I noted. However, I gave up quickly > > PPS: I've got about 2 dozen "nearly new" Teac 1/2 height DD drives in > a box in my basement - If anyone needs one, get in touch with me and > we can work something out. I need a 4-6 for the Kaypros. I was planning to send them out for repair, but it's rather expensive to get a drive repaired, and the 4+88 needs full height drives to look original, so I am starting with those drives. That leaves the the 4-84, and potentially the K10 with a need for alternatives. -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Apr 29 22:26:50 2013 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 22:26:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CQD-220 and CD-ROM redux In-Reply-To: <22E70966-950D-43C2-962D-010518DA4905@gmail.com> References: <22E70966-950D-43C2-962D-010518DA4905@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Apr 2013, David Riley wrote: > After several days of trying to coax reliable results out of my Pioneer > DR-US124X CD drive on the CQD-220, I finally gave up and acquired a > proper Plextor drive. The Pioneer had various issues, some of which > may just be due to it being in bad shape - I'll have to test it out on > some of my Macs to see if that's the case. In case anyone stumbles > upon this in an archive, I thought I'd list the symptoms: > > - After it warmed up, it would throw errors when operated in sync mode, > even in the CQD-220's built-in drive test > - When not in sync mode, it would work on the built-in test, but would > periodically just stop responding. VMS would eventually (after a > good 5 minutes or so) give up and declare it "not software enabled". > This had an annoying tendency to happen during lengthy installs. > - All the other drives in the SCSI chain (a hard drive, a Zip drive > and a Jaz drive) seemed to work just fine, so I'm relatively sure it > wasn't a termination issue. > > And yes, the drive was jumpered to 512 byte blocks. It would boot the > VMS install CD without the jumper, but it would never proceed to > executing the standalone BACKUP program. > > Someone was selling a 20x Plextor drive on eBay for a pretty good > price, so I snapped it up. It's worked 100% reliably since I plugged > it in. Perhaps their SCSI implementation is more compliant? All I > know is that they have an extremely good reputation, and their user > manuals seem to be cognizant of the various reasons you might want to > run in 512-byte block mode. Something worth noting with the older Pioneer drives is that unlike many other CD-ROM drive manufacturers, Pioneer often did have full service manuals available for their drives. I still have several manuals for some of their other 4x drives. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 23:43:59 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 01:43:59 -0300 Subject: Mac Color Classic - How to speed it up? :oD Message-ID: Wow! Got a Mac Color Classic for $25! :oD And I made it work :oD Now I have a computer for that //e card :o) But it is slow, unbelieveable slow. Is there a way to speed it up without changing the main board? Can I overclock it? I already maxed the memory (but have no VRAM SIMM module) and no FPU, but 16MHz is too slow :( A 575 board would be great, but seems it has a premium price nowadays A little of history: Got this Color Classic and of course, no boot. Took off the motherboard and there was the classic signals of old computers from 90's: Dead PRAM battery, lots of leaked capacitors, tons of dirt. Cleaned the board, changed the capacitors, cleaned the goop with MEK, put a CR2032 with a socket to work as a PRAM battery replacement (these aren't easy to find here in Brazil) and it booted. No "bong", no sound. But it booted properly and loaded system 7.*.*, On shutdown, it BANGed something, and the classic smell of rotten capacitors was felt on the room. I disassembled the computer and wasn't able to find anything. Now the computer wouldn't boot, but no HD. Without the motherboard, the HD would spin up and thereafter, spin down. After disassembling the entire computer, I found the hard disk (!) with 4 leaked capacitors. I changed the capacitors and it still wouldn't boot, turning down the HD after some seconds. I changed the HD to another SCSI I had here from my HP16505A and it wouldn't spin down. HD problem. A more detailed exam shown capacitor goop on the HD digital board. I cleaned it with MEK and it is working properly. Unfortunately, I'm still unable to make it bong. No sound whatsoever. I tried to use an earphone on the audio output, but got no sound. Changed all the polarized caps on the motherboard (even tantalum ones) and no cigar. I still cannot figure what can be wrong. The audio amplifier SEEMS to be working. Interesting point: It bonged ONCE. Tips, suggestions, hints, are welcome :o) Greetings from Brazil, Alexandre Souza --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From mcquiggi at me.com Mon Apr 29 12:55:16 2013 From: mcquiggi at me.com (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:55:16 -0300 Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation Message-ID: If all else fails, I can take a voltmeter to my cable and make you a pinout table. Let me know. Kevin > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 09:24:27 -0400 > From: Rick Murphy > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation > Message-ID: <201304281324.r3SDOTpE032247 at rickmurphy.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > I'm in the process of trying to resurrect a MicroVAX-II system. > I have a RRD50 cd reader and the associated KRQ50 controller. What I'm > missing is the cable between the cabinet kit and the drive. > > I've tried various incantations, including a AUI cable (DA15 to DA15) > and what I think is a straight-through cable. I also hooked the cabinet > kit DA15M direct to the drive with no success. > > In most cases the drive spins up but when I try to boot it, the red > error LED on the drive blinks then it spins down. > > So, I've got to build a cable. Does anyone have documentation of the > pinout of what I need to build? > Thanks, > -Rick Sent from my iPad From alex at cheltscum.co.uk Mon Apr 29 16:51:20 2013 From: alex at cheltscum.co.uk (Alex White) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 22:51:20 +0100 Subject: Amusing tweet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <959D2E6F-82F3-4532-BC5A-9659CD656DCB@cheltscum.co.uk> In response: http://microvax.org/melt/computers/VAXen/landievax.jpg A MicroVAX 4000/200 running in my Land Rover. :) m On 25 Apr 2013, at 17:44, Liam Proven wrote: > https://twitter.com/computermuseum/status/327461803061817345/photo/1 > > @computermuseum > (Computing History) > 3m ago > > If my car travelled back to the seventies it would be the most > powerful car on the road!! :-) pic.twitter.com/P2476JP6BC > > (Pic shows a car boot containing a PDP - I can't read the model number > - and an Imsai 8080.) > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > From jason at smbfc.net Tue Apr 30 07:47:04 2013 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Amusing tweet In-Reply-To: <959D2E6F-82F3-4532-BC5A-9659CD656DCB@cheltscum.co.uk> References: <959D2E6F-82F3-4532-BC5A-9659CD656DCB@cheltscum.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Apr 2013, Alex White wrote: > In response: > > http://microvax.org/melt/computers/VAXen/landievax.jpg > > A MicroVAX 4000/200 running in my Land Rover. > > :) > > m What's the back story on that picture? Looks like fun! -- Jason Sent from Alpine From sales at elecplus.com Tue Apr 30 08:02:34 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:02:34 -0500 Subject: BC18R-06 was RE: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: <201304300142.r3U1guVv005602@rickmurphy.net> References: <201304290009.r3T09wXk018012@rickmurphy.net> <201304300142.r3U1guVv005602@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <016601ce45a2$fba731a0$f2f594e0$@com> American Computer Exchange Inc USA MI 9 AM - 5 PM GMT 5 PM 248-538-8170 Compurex USA MA 8 AM - 6 PM 5 GMT 4 PM 774-227-7400 IGS Systems, Inc/ Match Computer USA MA 8 AM - 6 PM 5 GMT 5 PM 508-866-1171 Seacoast Digital Computers, Inc. USA NH 9 AM - 5 PM 5 GMT 4 PM 603-642-6222 Varx, Inc USA NJ 9 AM - 5 PM 5 GMT 4 PM 856-589-0053 These companies have this exact cable listed, Bobby at IGS is the least expensive. Hope that helps. Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6282 - Release Date: 04/29/13 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 08:08:39 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 14:08:39 +0100 Subject: Old computer equipment information and value In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29 April 2013 19:02, Dave wrote: > Hi, > > I have been advised to post here for some information about some old > computer equipment I have. > > What I seek is advise on the value or how to find the value and sell the > following items: > > 2x 3M data cartrage desktop storage file > > 3X (1 opened, 2 sealed) 3M data cartrages DC6151 I've sold a few such things on eBay but only for pennies. I made more on the postage than the media. > 1X Diaspron Total Shield, 12" I don't know what this is. > 1x Selmar Multi-way distribution block (extension lead with a standard plug > and 6 'kettle' sockets) > > 2X leads with 'kettle' plug and socket > > 2x leads with 'kettle' plug and 2 in plug > > 30x leads with kettle plug - nothing on other end Nothing significant but a local charity might appreciate them - they are essentially generic consumables. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 08:14:29 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 14:14:29 +0100 Subject: Mac Color Classic - How to speed it up? :oD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30 April 2013 05:43, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Wow! Got a Mac Color Classic for $25! :oD And I made it work :oD > > Now I have a computer for that //e card :o) > > But it is slow, unbelieveable slow. Is there a way to speed it up without changing the main board? Can I overclock it? I already maxed the memory (but have no VRAM SIMM module) and no FPU, but 16MHz is too slow :( > > A 575 board would be great, but seems it has a premium price nowadays > > A little of history: > Got this Color Classic and of course, no boot. Took off the motherboard and there was the classic signals of old computers from 90's: Dead PRAM battery, lots of leaked capacitors, tons of dirt. Cleaned the board, changed the capacitors, cleaned the goop with MEK, put a CR2032 with a socket to work as a PRAM battery replacement (these aren't easy to find here in Brazil) and it booted. No "bong", no sound. But it booted properly and loaded system 7.*.*, > > On shutdown, it BANGed something, and the classic smell of rotten capacitors was felt on the room. I disassembled the computer and wasn't able to find anything. Now the computer wouldn't boot, but no HD. Without the motherboard, the HD would spin up and thereafter, spin down. > > After disassembling the entire computer, I found the hard disk (!) with 4 leaked capacitors. I changed the capacitors and it still wouldn't boot, turning down the HD after some seconds. I changed the HD to another SCSI I had here from my HP16505A and it wouldn't spin down. HD problem. > > A more detailed exam shown capacitor goop on the HD digital board. I cleaned it with MEK and it is working properly. > > Unfortunately, I'm still unable to make it bong. No sound whatsoever. I tried to use an earphone on the audio output, but got no sound. Changed all the polarized caps on the motherboard (even tantalum ones) and no cigar. I still cannot figure what can be wrong. The audio amplifier SEEMS to be working. > > Interesting point: It bonged ONCE. > > Tips, suggestions, hints, are welcome :o) This is probably of no use at all, but an anecdote: Not having your skills, when I got a dead Classic II, this is what I found. I removed the logic board & discovered that it too had many leaking caps. I removed all its socketed devices (SIMMs, ROMs) & put it through my dishwasher (!). This removed the leaked electrolyte & when thoroughly dried (2 days in a heated cupboard) I replaced it and the machine booted and ran fine. But, after this, the sound volume was very low. Months later, it died again. The caps had leaked more. I dish-washed it again and this time it only ran for a short time - hours - before dying. There was no sound at all by now. I can't solder worth a damn, so I can't fix it. :?( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 09:03:36 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 07:03:36 -0700 Subject: BC18R-06 was RE: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: <016601ce45a2$fba731a0$f2f594e0$@com> References: <201304290009.r3T09wXk018012@rickmurphy.net> <201304300142.r3U1guVv005602@rickmurphy.net> <016601ce45a2$fba731a0$f2f594e0$@com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 6:02 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > > These companies have this exact cable listed, Bobby at IGS is the least > expensive. I have bought DEC cables from IGS within the last couple of months and was satisfied with the transactions. http://www.decparts.com/ http://myworld.ebay.com/igssystems -Glen From trasz at FreeBSD.org Tue Apr 30 08:11:15 2013 From: trasz at FreeBSD.org (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Edward_Tomasz_Napiera=B3a?=) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 15:11:15 +0200 Subject: R4400 SGI Indigo - wild roar shortly after power on. Message-ID: I have a broken SGI Indigo I'd like to fix, but I have no idea where to start. The most obvious problem is that shortly after power on - two seconds, maybe three - a noise starts coming from the internal speaker. The sound becomes louder and louder with every second. No startup chime, no output on serial console. My initial thought was a broken power supply, but a PSU repair guy I've found claims that power supply is ok and voltages are correct and clean. He also says that he tried to bend the "mainboard" - probably the CPU board - slightly and this sometimes leads to the startup chime. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks :-) -- If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 30 10:30:59 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 11:30:59 -0400 Subject: CERN/NeXT/recreating the first web server Message-ID: <517FE3B3.90108@telegraphics.com.au> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22249490 "Soon to be refurbished: The NeXT computer that was home to the world's first website" "Mr Noyes is reaching out to ask those who were involved in the NeXT computers used by Sir Tim for advice on how to restore the original machines." --Toby (NeXT owner) From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 10:49:58 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 10:49:58 -0500 Subject: Mac Color Classic - How to speed it up? :oD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some of the electrolytic caps in the audio section are no doubt bad. I had a similar no/low-sound on my IIci which went away after I recapped the thing. On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:14 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 30 April 2013 05:43, Alexandre Souza > wrote: > > > > Wow! Got a Mac Color Classic for $25! :oD And I made it work :oD > > > > Now I have a computer for that //e card :o) > > > > But it is slow, unbelieveable slow. Is there a way to speed it up > without changing the main board? Can I overclock it? I already maxed the > memory (but have no VRAM SIMM module) and no FPU, but 16MHz is too slow :( > > > > A 575 board would be great, but seems it has a premium price nowadays > > > > A little of history: > > Got this Color Classic and of course, no boot. Took off the > motherboard and there was the classic signals of old computers from 90's: > Dead PRAM battery, lots of leaked capacitors, tons of dirt. Cleaned the > board, changed the capacitors, cleaned the goop with MEK, put a CR2032 with > a socket to work as a PRAM battery replacement (these aren't easy to find > here in Brazil) and it booted. No "bong", no sound. But it booted properly > and loaded system 7.*.*, > > > > On shutdown, it BANGed something, and the classic smell of rotten > capacitors was felt on the room. I disassembled the computer and wasn't > able to find anything. Now the computer wouldn't boot, but no HD. Without > the motherboard, the HD would spin up and thereafter, spin down. > > > > After disassembling the entire computer, I found the hard disk (!) > with 4 leaked capacitors. I changed the capacitors and it still wouldn't > boot, turning down the HD after some seconds. I changed the HD to another > SCSI I had here from my HP16505A and it wouldn't spin down. HD problem. > > > > A more detailed exam shown capacitor goop on the HD digital board. I > cleaned it with MEK and it is working properly. > > > > Unfortunately, I'm still unable to make it bong. No sound > whatsoever. I tried to use an earphone on the audio output, but got no > sound. Changed all the polarized caps on the motherboard (even tantalum > ones) and no cigar. I still cannot figure what can be wrong. The audio > amplifier SEEMS to be working. > > > > Interesting point: It bonged ONCE. > > > > Tips, suggestions, hints, are welcome :o) > > This is probably of no use at all, but an anecdote: > > Not having your skills, when I got a dead Classic II, this is what I found. > > I removed the logic board & discovered that it too had many leaking > caps. I removed all its socketed devices (SIMMs, ROMs) & put it > through my dishwasher (!). This removed the leaked electrolyte & when > thoroughly dried (2 days in a heated cupboard) I replaced it and the > machine booted and ran fine. > > But, after this, the sound volume was very low. > > Months later, it died again. The caps had leaked more. I dish-washed > it again and this time it only ran for a short time - hours - before > dying. There was no sound at all by now. > > I can't solder worth a damn, so I can't fix it. :?( > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 30 11:10:17 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 09:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CERN/NeXT/recreating the first web server In-Reply-To: <517FE3B3.90108@telegraphics.com.au> References: <517FE3B3.90108@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20130430090609.J9821@shell.lmi.net> "Present-day browsers offer gorgeous experiences but when we go back and look at the early browsers I think we have lost some of the features that Tim Berners-Lee had in mind." - Dan Noyes . . . and ask Ted Nelson what HE thinks! He has some rants about how WWW fails to include the features that he had in mind. Ted's vision might be complete-able in a few more decades. Parts of it are shown in "Hyperland" (Ted nelson, Douglas Adams, Tom Baker) BBC 1991? From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 11:10:52 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 17:10:52 +0100 Subject: CERN/NeXT/recreating the first web server In-Reply-To: <517FE3B3.90108@telegraphics.com.au> References: <517FE3B3.90108@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 30 April 2013 16:30, Toby Thain wrote: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22249490 > > "Soon to be refurbished: The NeXT computer that was home to the > world's first website" > > "Mr Noyes is reaching out to ask those who were > involved in the NeXT computers used by Sir Tim for > advice on how to restore the original machines." Yes, I read that, too. Well, this version: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-04/30/first-web-page The actual URL -- http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/TheProject.html -- seems to be on its knees now, after being widely Tweeted and whatnot, but some info pages are up: http://info.cern.ch/ and http://first-website.web.cern.ch/ I particularly liked Wired's line about: "The team is also planning to create an emulator that will give users an opportunity to use the first web browser, WorldWideWeb, later renamed Nexus." I've posted a comment about Previous, just in case it helps... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 30 11:44:31 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 10:44:31 -0600 Subject: R4400 SGI Indigo - wild roar shortly after power on. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , =?iso-8859-2?Q?Edward_Tomasz_Napiera=B3a?= writes: > Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks :-) Have you asked on nekochan.net? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Apr 30 13:04:21 2013 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 19:04:21 +0100 Subject: R4400 SGI Indigo - wild roar shortly after power on. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you tried the reset button after power up? My O2 sometimes doesn't fire up first time until I've reset. On 30 April 2013 14:11, Edward Tomasz Napiera?a wrote: > I have a broken SGI Indigo I'd like to fix, but I have no idea where to > start. > > The most obvious problem is that shortly after power on - two seconds, > maybe > three - a noise starts coming from the internal speaker. The sound becomes > louder and louder with every second. No startup chime, no output on serial > console. > > My initial thought was a broken power supply, but a PSU repair guy I've > found > claims that power supply is ok and voltages are correct and clean. He also > says that he tried to bend the "mainboard" - probably the CPU board - > slightly > and this sometimes leads to the startup chime. > > Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks :-) > > -- > If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my > body? > > > From jws at jwsss.com Tue Apr 30 14:17:45 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 12:17:45 -0700 Subject: Amusing tweet In-Reply-To: <959D2E6F-82F3-4532-BC5A-9659CD656DCB@cheltscum.co.uk> References: <959D2E6F-82F3-4532-BC5A-9659CD656DCB@cheltscum.co.uk> Message-ID: <518018D9.1070005@jwsss.com> On 4/29/2013 2:51 PM, Alex White wrote: > In response: > > http://microvax.org/melt/computers/VAXen/landievax.jpg > > A MicroVAX 4000/200 running in my Land Rover. > > :) > > m When I was in college, the geology department had a large truck like one of the big Mercedes, 4 wheel, but just shy of the build of a 6x6. They had on board two Novas, a/c and genset as well as explosives locker for storing dynamite charges for the purpose of sounding. I suspect they were responsible for some of the first studies of such technology. They could park and remotely set off a number of charges and record the events and analyze them to some degree on the spot. Sadly no photos I know of. This was at the University of Missouri, Rolla. probably 72 or 73. The frequently would have to trade out the Novas on their truck when there were problems with some in the computer room, which was when one could get a good look at the truck. Jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 30 14:52:27 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 20:52:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: <201304300154.r3U1spbM005906@rickmurphy.net> from "Rick Murphy" at Apr 29, 13 09:54:49 pm Message-ID: > > At 01:55 PM 4/29/2013, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > >If all else fails, I can take a voltmeter to my cable and make you a > >pinout table. Let me know. > > Hopefully it won't come to that. However, a simple test might > suffice. The first twisted pair connects to pins 1 and 9 on the DA15F > cab kit connector. (The other pairs are 2/10, 3/11, 4/12, and 5/13.) It sounds like it could well be the Philips/LMS interface. The service manual for a PHilips CD-ROM drive that I mentioned says that the connecotr pinout is : 1 : Responce + 2 : Command + 3 : Data + 4 : Clock + 5 : Attention + 6 : N/C 7 : N/C 8 : Ground 9 : Response - 10 : Command - 11 : Data - 12 : Clock - 13 : Attention - 14 : N/C 15 : N/C The cable si 'twisted in pairs, pin to pin with the exception of pins 6, 7, 14 and 15'. Since there are actually an odd number of conenctions (due to the ground on pin 8), that comment makes not total sense, but I think it's clear what is meant. Of the 5 signals, command is from controlelr to drieve, all others are from drive to controller. Clock and data are extracted fro mteh CD-ROM data stream, command, respsone and attention end up on the drive microcontroller. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 30 14:59:11 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 20:59:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: <201304300142.r3U1guVv005602@rickmurphy.net> from "Rick Murphy" at Apr 29, 13 09:42:53 pm Message-ID: > I haven't touched the drive. That's got to be the place to do any > effective testing. If it's any help, the drive I have the docs on shows a TDA8808T for the 'photo didoe signal processor' and a TDA8809T for the 'Radial Error Processor'.If I am reading it right, it looks like the Eye pattern is on pin 3 of the TDA8808T -tony From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 30 15:43:23 2013 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:43:23 -0400 Subject: Conventions/Shows in the NY/NJ/CT area Message-ID: <51802CEB.7020901@atarimuseum.com> Anyone have a listing of shows coming up in the NY/NJ/CT area... Anything for computers and/or videogames... I would like to see about getting a vendor table to sell copies of the Atari Inc. book and to also sell my USB joysticks and my newer versions that are ready May 1st. Thanks. Curt From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 16:57:53 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:57:53 -0300 Subject: Mac Color Classic - How to speed it up? :oD References: Message-ID: <211202BEBD4645DA8859CE7638C7888C@tababook> Ehhh... As I said, I replaced **all** caps (incluiding tantalum caps on the down side of the board) with new caps :o) And once, it bonged :o( But thanks anyway! :oD --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From: Geoffrey Oltmans Some of the electrolytic caps in the audio section are no doubt bad. I had a similar no/low-sound on my IIci which went away after I recapped the thing. From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Apr 30 17:30:28 2013 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:30:28 -0400 Subject: BC18R-06 was RE: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: References: <201304290009.r3T09wXk018012@rickmurphy.net> <201304300142.r3U1guVv005602@rickmurphy.net> <016601ce45a2$fba731a0$f2f594e0$@com> Message-ID: <201304302230.r3UMUVA3018622@rickmurphy.net> At 10:03 AM 4/30/2013, Glen Slick wrote: >On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 6:02 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > > > These companies have this exact cable listed, Bobby at IGS is the least > > expensive. > >I have bought DEC cables from IGS within the last couple of months and >was satisfied with the transactions. Thanks. Given Tony's info, I'll probably try making my own cable as the prices I can find are high enough that it's worth my time to make my own surrogate. I've got plenty of DA15 cables used for T1 work that I can repurpose. -Rick From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 17:40:52 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 17:40:52 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches In-Reply-To: <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> On 04/29/2013 08:33 PM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > > > No problems, glad it helped! > > Again without much confidence in my > memory, I think the IIe runs its self-test if there's no keyboard > attached. However, that's more regular-looking (and sounding) than what > you're describing, and should end with the message "KERNEL OK" after a > minute or so. Still, see what happens when the KB is done I guess... It's alive! It does indeed need the keyboard to be plugged in before it'll boot to BASIC (with the SSC board that was inside it plugged in, it sits there until I hit ctrl-reset, but I expect that's down to board config and it's sitting there in serial terminal mode). I'm not sure why the self-test didn't seem to be doing anything useful; maybe I should just leave it running for a while and see if it does anything (unless anyone happens to know what the key sequence is for invoking the self-test via the keyboard?). I'll put it on the to-do list to try and find a monitor for it (it works great with my big LCD TV, but it'd be nice to have something vintage to live with it permanently - although I did get an Applecolor RGB CRT with the IIgs machines, but I have a feeling that doesn't support composite video input). Oh, there's a disk II controller board in there too, but there was no sign at the dump of any drives :-( So, I should probably try and source a drive for it at some point as well (I *may* still have one in storage over in the UK, but it probably went with the Apple III that I had) cheers Jules From alex at cheltscum.co.uk Tue Apr 30 17:32:31 2013 From: alex at cheltscum.co.uk (Alex White) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 23:32:31 +0100 Subject: Amusing tweet In-Reply-To: References: <959D2E6F-82F3-4532-BC5A-9659CD656DCB@cheltscum.co.uk> Message-ID: <1B4F8577-444F-4B65-B770-44E6D69B882A@cheltscum.co.uk> On 30 Apr 2013, at 13:47, Jason Howe wrote: > On Mon, 29 Apr 2013, Alex White wrote: > >> In response: >> >> http://microvax.org/melt/computers/VAXen/landievax.jpg >> >> A MicroVAX 4000/200 running in my Land Rover. >> >> :) >> >> m > > What's the back story on that picture? Looks like fun! Ah, there's not much to it really. "Here are some toys!" (The VAX was running entirely off the fully-charged UPS) m From cctech at ljw.me.uk Tue Apr 30 17:41:55 2013 From: cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 23:41:55 +0100 Subject: Block-oriented Magnetic Tape Drives In-Reply-To: References: <81141402AD6A4F15A509F2B9CFCDC0FC@xp32vm> <517E857B.1010103@jetnet.ab.ca> <517ED08A.4080003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <518048B3.2050707@ljw.me.uk> On 29/04/13 21:11, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Rob Doyle wrote: > >> On 4/29/2013 8:59 AM, David Riley wrote: >>> Clockless logic is something that comes up now and then in ASIC >>> and FPGA circles, but it never seems to pan out (I remember Sun >>> doing something with it about a decade ago as well). I don't >>> know if it's because the tools are too hard to design or what, >>> but there must be some reason it never comes to anything (or at >>> least hasn't since the late '60s). >>> >> There is an IBM1130 CPU that is accurately implemented using >> asynchronous logic in a standard FPGA. >> >> See: http://ibm1130.blogspot.com/ >> >> This technique is probably not for the timid. > I think the 360/30 FPGA (http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/vhdl/) does the > same. To be clear, it's DOABLE on an FPGA, but the timing analyzers > don't like it very much. Add to that the fact that the built-in > flip flops are strictly edge triggered in most technologies and you > have a hard time doing something as simple as an RS latch (some of > the true CPLDs around, like Xilinx's CoolRunner line, still have > true RS options available, but they're very small). The speed of the /30 is so much lower than the capability of the FPGA (1.5MHz vs 50MHz) that it wasn't really an issue. However, I have gone from asynchronous S/R FFs and transparent latches to synchronous (edge-triggered) versions running from the global 50MHz clock (so effectively the same thing, but with a 0-20ns delay). I think this has got rid of a some inconsistent behaviour, possibly caused by routing delays which change from build to build. > > In general, if you're looking to implement something that was > originally designed around asynchronous logic in a modern FPGA, > you're generally better off trying to figure out how to make it run > with synchronous logic instead of implementing it 100% faithfully to > the schematic. A lot of the time, it's actually not particularly > hard to do; for example, microprocessor RD and WR lines often > implicitly act as clocks, which you can use to your advantage when > coding bus interfaces that use them. > > > - Dave > > I didn't want to get into redesigning things to work synchronously, but if I wanted to crank the speed up then I would have to. Luckily there is no reason to make it run faster! For anyone that's interested in a progress report, I'm currently working on a SD card interface to emulate the 2311 (7MB) drives, using Hercules CKD files. So far the SD/SDHC interface is working, and it can mount the FAT16/32 filesystem, find the CKD files in the root directory, and read the first cluster. Next step is the cluster chaining and CKD file parsing. Everything is in VHDL inside the same Spartan3 FPGA as the CPU. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Apr 30 17:43:15 2013 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:43:15 -0400 Subject: BC18R-06 was RE: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: <016601ce45a2$fba731a0$f2f594e0$@com> References: <201304290009.r3T09wXk018012@rickmurphy.net> <201304300142.r3U1guVv005602@rickmurphy.net> <016601ce45a2$fba731a0$f2f594e0$@com> Message-ID: <201304302243.r3UMhH1M018914@rickmurphy.net> At 09:02 AM 4/30/2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >These companies have this exact cable listed, Bobby at IGS is the least >expensive. > >Hope that helps. > >Cindy Croxton I've looked on the web, and most of those companies either have outrageous prices (over $100) or can't be bothered to actually list a price (IGS, for example). Given the interface info that Tony posted, it's pretty clear that this is a simple straight-through cable consisting of 5 twisted pairs. Making my own should be pretty easy. Thanks, -Rick From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Apr 30 17:50:35 2013 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:50:35 -0400 Subject: RRD50 Cable documentation In-Reply-To: References: <201304300142.r3U1guVv005602@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <201304302250.r3UMocBC019219@rickmurphy.net> At 03:59 PM 4/30/2013, Tony Duell wrote: > > I haven't touched the drive. That's got to be the place to do any > > effective testing. > >If it's any help, the drive I have the docs on shows a TDA8808T for the >'photo didoe signal processor' and a TDA8809T for the 'Radial Error >Processor'.If I am reading it right, it looks like the Eye pattern is on >pin 3 of the TDA8808T I've opened up the drive. The external interface is to a "Data Path" module that has a bunch of TTL and one large chip (40 -pin, probably an 8031) with a Phillips logo. I think this is confirmed to be an LMSI rebrand. That Data Path board has an AM26LS31PC line driver and an AM26LS32PC EIA-422 receiver. I'm going to trace the connector pins to figure out the likely TX/RX pairs. Thanks for the info. -Rick From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 18:07:39 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:07:39 -0500 Subject: Apple IIgs - IIe keyboard Message-ID: <51804EBB.9020505@gmail.com> As mentioned in my post about IIe keyswitches, I acquired a couple of IIgs machines at the same time as the IIe (along with an AppleColor RGB monitor) - but no ADB keyboards or mice. I've just checked over both systems; one has an Apple memory expansion board fitted (2MB, I think) and the other has a Harris GS Sauce memory expansion board (also 2MB via a pair of 1MB simms) and what I think is an Apple SCSI board (nifty!). Both seem to power up OK and sit there trying to boot from non-existent media (display via composite; I don't know if the CRT monitor works - it's on the to-do list to make a cable). Anyway, the machine with the SCSI card looks to be an earlier board, and has a keyboard socket soldered to the PCB. Wikipedia seems to suggest that this should accept the keyboard from my IIe, albeit with reduced functionality over a genuine ADB keyboard - however, is it as simple as plugging it in, or are there other tweaks that are necessary for it to work? (e.g. perhaps worst-case a ROM change for a ROM that I don't have!). Although I'd like to get an ADB keyboard and rodent, I'm curious to see if the IIe keyboard will work in the meantime... cheers Jules From mike at fenz.net Tue Apr 30 18:32:35 2013 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 11:32:35 +1200 Subject: Apple IIgs - IIe keyboard In-Reply-To: <51804EBB.9020505@gmail.com> References: <51804EBB.9020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: The early GS motherboard was designed to be mounted in a IIe case as an upgrade, so those should work straight off with a IIe KB I think. The later ones with no header on the board... no idea. Further research required I guess. Would be interested to hear what works... On 01/05/2013 11:07, Jules Richardson wrote: > Anyway, the machine with the SCSI card looks to be an earlier board, and > has a keyboard socket soldered to the PCB. Wikipedia seems to suggest that > this should accept the keyboard from my IIe, albeit with reduced > functionality over a genuine ADB keyboard - however, is it as simple as > plugging it in, or are there other tweaks that are necessary for it to > work? (e.g. perhaps worst-case a ROM change for a ROM that I don't have!). > > Although I'd like to get an ADB keyboard and rodent, I'm curious to see if > the IIe keyboard will work in the meantime... > > cheers > > Jules From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 18:46:16 2013 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 20:46:16 -0300 Subject: Apple IIe keyboard switches References: <517EE0D1.4000603@gmail.com> <517F15B1.9090405@gmail.com> <4d9959c0dfabf709ed671fdcaca0a147@ihug.co.nz> <51804874.7090402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <499A93CF167F4961A7E320F52FB52850@tababook> Try the SDISK emulator that uses a SDcard to emulate the Apple Floppy! This is the more advanced verson (in portuguese) with LCD and keyboard) http://www.fabio.belavenuto.nom.br/ --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: Jules Richardson To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 7:40 PM Subject: Re: Apple IIe keyboard switches On 04/29/2013 08:33 PM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > > > No problems, glad it helped! > > Again without much confidence in my > memory, I think the IIe runs its self-test if there's no keyboard > attached. However, that's more regular-looking (and sounding) than what > you're describing, and should end with the message "KERNEL OK" after a > minute or so. Still, see what happens when the KB is done I guess... It's alive! It does indeed need the keyboard to be plugged in before it'll boot to BASIC (with the SSC board that was inside it plugged in, it sits there until I hit ctrl-reset, but I expect that's down to board config and it's sitting there in serial terminal mode). I'm not sure why the self-test didn't seem to be doing anything useful; maybe I should just leave it running for a while and see if it does anything (unless anyone happens to know what the key sequence is for invoking the self-test via the keyboard?). I'll put it on the to-do list to try and find a monitor for it (it works great with my big LCD TV, but it'd be nice to have something vintage to live with it permanently - although I did get an Applecolor RGB CRT with the IIgs machines, but I have a feeling that doesn't support composite video input). Oh, there's a disk II controller board in there too, but there was no sign at the dump of any drives :-( So, I should probably try and source a drive for it at some point as well (I *may* still have one in storage over in the UK, but it probably went with the Apple III that I had) cheers Jules From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 19:52:34 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 20:52:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple IIgs - IIe keyboard In-Reply-To: <51804EBB.9020505@gmail.com> References: <51804EBB.9020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Apr 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > Anyway, the machine with the SCSI card looks to be an earlier board, and has > a keyboard socket soldered to the PCB. Wikipedia seems to suggest that this > should accept the keyboard from my IIe, albeit with reduced functionality > over a genuine ADB keyboard - however, is it as simple as plugging it in, or > are there other tweaks that are necessary for it to work? (e.g. perhaps > worst-case a ROM change for a ROM that I don't have!). > > Although I'd like to get an ADB keyboard and rodent, I'm curious to see if > the IIe keyboard will work in the meantime... If it has the IIe style connector, then it's one of the earlier ROM 1 boards. They were sold with a replacement bottom pan as a retrofit for 2e machines. The board probably also has a conventional, square 6-pin power connector in addition to the single-inline 2gs power header. Go ahead and connect the 2e keyboard. I would love to get my hands on one of those bottom pans for my Apple 2 collection. Steve -- From dave13 at dunfield.com Tue Apr 30 21:52:40 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 21:52:40 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? Message-ID: <51807568.18537.11DD3E@dave13.dunfield.com> >Booted to DOS 5.0, on AT class machine, drive B set to 1.2MB, formats >and writes/reads disks fine. imd has been copied to HD, as well as IMD >image. >> >> If you are booting to real/raw DOS ... does the drive work under DOS.? >Yes >> Can you FORMAT 1.2M and 360k disks under DOS and read/write >> them.? If not, you have a hardware problem (for DOS, make sure it is >> configured correctly in BIOS - IMD doesn't use BIOS settings though). >Works fine When you create 360/1.2M disks by formatting on the PC - can you then read and recreate those disks with IMD? If yes, then likely your hardware setup is working. If no, then you may have some compatibility issue with the mainboard controller. (IMD does direct access to the FDC hardware) Fred's post below also reminded me that Kay disks are 10x512 - this can be "a bit tight" for some PC controllers. 765's and derivitives have a "blind spot" just after the index hole - and some versions are worse than others. Once you try to recreate a Kay disk and it fails ... try reading the first track back. Does it get most of the sectors. If the first or last sector is missing, then it likely held off writing the first sector long enough that the whole track with the "extra" sector didn't fit in the remainder of the track. If this happens, you could try slowing the drive down slightly ... you may be able to create a readable disk that way (I almost always have to slow my drives by a few rpm to write Cromemco disks for example). You might also make readable disks by reducing the gaps from the precalculated values.. a little experimentation may be in order. IIRC you indicated that you were using a Teac 1.2M drive - it might be jumperable for 300rpm ... if so, try that - running the controller at 250kbps might improve the situation. I find that generally recreating DD disks can be a little more forgiving with 300rpm drives. Dave -- dave13 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield System/Firmware development services: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield From dave13 at dunfield.com Tue Apr 30 21:57:39 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 21:57:39 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? Message-ID: <51807693.29554.166F97@dave13.dunfield.com> >> >A further tip: when writing new floppies with IMD (to generate original Kaypro bundled >> >software for example), I found it easiest to Format the floppy under 22DISK first, as it >> >knows the correct settings for a Kaypro floppy, then use IMD to write to the formatted >> >floppy. Doing this meant the only setting I had to set on IMD is the Double Step (as I >> >have a 1.2MB (80 track) drive, not a 360KB (40 track) drive. >> Makes no sense. IMD knows the exact format of the particular disk that it is writing >> as this was determined at the time it was read, and is represented in the metadata >> of the IMD file - it also formats the disk as it writes it, removing any previous formatting. >> And ... if he's writing on a 1.2M drive (presumed in a HD controller) , he WILL need to >> set a 250->300kbps translation in addition to double-stepping in order to write the disks. >Could part of the confusion there be that >SOME 1.2M drives are 360RPM only, and therefore require the 300kbps >data transfer rate, and >SOME 1.2M drive are 360RPM/300RPM, and when in a 300RPM mode can use the >250Kbps data transfer rate? Is there a "standard" for setting drive speed? - I don't think I've encountered an actual dual speed HD drive setup in a PC (except for some of mine which have a manual "speed switch" on the front panel added by yours truly :-). IMD doesn't know anything about changing the drive speed as I have not seen documentation on this so if this is possible on some drives/controllers, then it might explain it - if 22disk had changed the speed of the drive. Dave -- dave13 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield System/Firmware development services: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 30 22:38:52 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 22:38:52 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <51807568.18537.11DD3E@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <51807568.18537.11DD3E@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <51808E4C.7020301@jbrain.com> On 4/30/2013 9:52 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > When you create 360/1.2M disks by formatting on the PC - can you then > read and recreate those disks with IMD? I tried reading and then recreating a DOS 360K disk. Worked fine. It even seemed to read a known good Kaypro disk. But, I tried writing it out with no luck. It did, though, write it out with no errors, so I think I have two issues. One is that the K10FLOAD.TD0 file that I converted to an IMD did not convert correctly, and the other is a lack of correct settings on IMD. When I read my known good DSDD Kaypro boot disk, I set tracks to 80, stepping to double, and sides to 2. But, IMD tries to read all the way up to track 80, when I thought it would stop at 40 (80 tracks, double stepped). But, when I set retry to 0, and it goes all the way up there, I still don't have a good copy. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 30 23:13:57 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 23:13:57 -0500 Subject: Kaypro System disks? In-Reply-To: <51808E4C.7020301@jbrain.com> References: <51807568.18537.11DD3E@dave13.dunfield.com> <51808E4C.7020301@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <51809685.1030802@jbrain.com> On 4/30/2013 10:38 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 4/30/2013 9:52 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> >> When you create 360/1.2M disks by formatting on the PC - can you then >> read and recreate those disks with IMD? > I tried reading and then recreating a DOS 360K disk. Worked fine. > > It even seemed to read a known good Kaypro disk. But, I tried writing > it out with no luck. It did, though, write it out with no errors, so > I think I have two issues. One is that the K10FLOAD.TD0 file that I > converted to an IMD did not convert correctly, and the other is a lack > of correct settings on IMD. > > When I read my known good DSDD Kaypro boot disk, I set tracks to 80, > stepping to double, and sides to 2. But, IMD tries to read all the > way up to track 80, when I thought it would stop at 40 (80 tracks, > double stepped). > > But, when I set retry to 0, and it goes all the way up there, I still > don't have a good copy. > > Jim > > > Update: I was able to copy a known good Universal ROM boot disk and boot it on the K1. So, at least I know my setup works. I still don't understand why the read of the disk tries and fails to read tracks 41-80 with doublestepping on. I also don't understand why running td02imd on k10fload.td0 didn't create a good imd file I can use with the utility. I guess I need a HD read k10fload boot disk image in IMD format. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com