From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Apr 1 00:17:59 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 22:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M 2.34? Message-ID: I haven't heard of CP/M version 2.34, but here I'm looking at a pair of 8-inch diskettes, an original and a copy, that supposedly contain it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Apr 1 05:12:57 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 06:12:57 -0400 Subject: CP/M 2.34? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51595DA9.60709@verizon.net> On 04/01/2013 01:17 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I haven't heard of CP/M version 2.34, but here I'm looking at a pair > of 8-inch diskettes, an original and a copy, that supposedly contain it. > No such animal in DRI parlance. It's likely V2 (2.1 or 2.1) with vendor specific BIOS patches. I have a disk marked V2.41, turns out its a 8' SSSD copy of V2 with a compupro disk and IO bios. It's CP/M 2. Allison From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 05:14:59 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 10:14:59 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=5b2=5d=3a=20World=e2=80=99s=20top=20supercomputer=20from=20=e2=80=9809=20is=20now=20obsolete=2c=20will=20be=20dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <5158D793.6020203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 01/04/2013 01:40:51 Subject: Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled >On 03/31/2013 08:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>>http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ >> >> Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? > > Remember, this is America. If it's old, it's bad, and if it's not >new, >it's old! > >> What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? > > Contracts, and suits. > I think more bean counters. You can get a newer faster box that uses much less power and so you actually can re-coup the investment in a few years. Looking at that link I see that box needs 2345Kw to do just over 1.0 Pet Flops. The UK's fastest computer, which is slightly faster at 1.2 Peta Flops only uses around 575kw so only 25% of the power... http://www.stfc.ac.uk/News+and+Events/39207.aspx http://www.top500.org/system/177723 http://www-01.ibm.com/software/success/cssdb.nsf/CS/STRD-8YREBG?OpenDocument&Site=default&cty=en_us http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Gene (More links to IBM research for those that get seriously excited by fast computers) >> Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with >>needs, and >> upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall >>machine? > I believe that the interconnect is the limiting factor.... > Of course. This is IBM. They can do damn near anything these days, if >technology is the only limiting factor. > >> Are there finite limits on how much space can be created under the >>Fort? >> >> What is it being replaced with? > > 13,158 iPads? > Na they have upgraded from PlayStation II to Playstation III chips.... > -Dave > -- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA Dave G4UGM From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 06:05:27 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 11:05:27 +0000 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: <1C39D62F-84E3-4CEC-B80F-40F61630AE09@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Huw Davies" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 01/04/2013 05:48:45 Subject: Re: An Acorn 4000 checks in > >On 01/04/2013, at 5:53 AM, Terry Stewart >wrote: > >> The latest addition to the collection >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/acorn-4000.htm > >I'm jealous - I had an earlier Archimedes on my desk at work for a >couple of weeks back when they were new but couldn't convince the >distributer to sell it at a reasonable price - in the end I got a Mac >Iicx running A/UX which cost five times as much but that's another >story. > >Must see if I can track something like this down to add to my >collection... > >Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au >Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the >Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" > The "RiscOS North West User Group" still meets in the UK http://www.ronwug.org/ForthcomingMeetings (I am not a member but the Radio Club I belong to uses the same building) Dave G4UGM > From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 1 08:19:05 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 06:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Apr 2013, Dave wrote: > >> On 01/04/2013, at 5:53 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: >> >>> The latest addition to the collection >>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/acorn-4000.htm >> >> I'm jealous - I had an earlier Archimedes on my desk at work for a couple >> of weeks back when they were new but couldn't convince the distributer to >> sell it at a reasonable price - in the end I got a Mac Iicx running A/UX >> which cost five times as much but that's another story. >> >> Must see if I can track something like this down to add to my collection... >> >> Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au >> Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the >> Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" >> > The "RiscOS North West User Group" still meets in the UK > > http://www.ronwug.org/ForthcomingMeetings > > (I am not a member but the Radio Club I belong to uses the same building) > Don't forget that you can run RiscOS on the Raspberry Pi now as well. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 1 08:58:36 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 09:58:36 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> On 03/31/2013 08:14 PM, geneb wrote: > 6030 days ain't too shabby. :) > > http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1199529 > > g. > Nice... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From earl at retrobits.com Mon Apr 1 11:30:08 2013 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 09:30:08 -0700 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > The latest addition to the collection > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/acorn-4000.htm > > Terry (Tez) > Fantastic! Such a historically important and interesting machine. Hope to see a video? :-) Nice acquisition, Tez. - Earl From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 14:56:49 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 14:56:49 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?V29ybGTigJlzIHRvcCBzdXBlcmNvbXB1dGVyIGZyb20g4oCYMDk=?= =?UTF-8?B?IGlzIG5vdyBvYnNvbGV0ZSwgd2lsbCBiZSBkaXNtYW50bGVk?= In-Reply-To: References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5159E681.6070906@gmail.com> On 03/31/2013 10:03 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > The newer systems are faster and consume a lot less power > and are therefore a lot cheaper to run. Pfft. Just hook a solar panel or two up to it. Or rather, lots. And only run it during the daytime, when it's a nice weather. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 1 18:02:54 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 16:02:54 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=9109_is?= =?windows-1252?Q?_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <5159E681.6070906@gmail.com> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <5159E681.6070906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <067F6802-0490-4D1B-8626-710FE87B9A50@shiresoft.com> On Apr 1, 2013, at 12:56 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 03/31/2013 10:03 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> The newer systems are faster and consume a lot less power >> and are therefore a lot cheaper to run. > > Pfft. Just hook a solar panel or two up to it. Or rather, lots. And only run it during the daytime, when it's a nice weather. It's in Los Alamos, so it's always sunny (ok 80% of the time). ;-) TTFN - Guy From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 1 19:03:29 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 13:03:29 +1300 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, video at some stage Earl. It will be a while though. I'm about 1/2 through going in roughly chronological order. Also other things are now competing for my time. Next up is the IBM XT, then the Epson, QX-10. Terry (Tez) On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 5:30 AM, Earl Evans wrote: > On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Terry Stewart >wrote: > > > The latest addition to the collection > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/acorn-4000.htm > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > > Fantastic! Such a historically important and interesting machine. Hope to > see a video? :-) > > Nice acquisition, Tez. > > - Earl > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 1 13:14:48 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 19:14:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: World^Òs top supercomputer from ^Ñ09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <5158DFA0.6070003@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Mar 31, 13 09:15:12 pm Message-ID: > > On 03/31/2013 08:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Sun, 31 Mar 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> 13,158 iPads? > > That's less than one and a quarter kilometers! x 241.2mm x 185.7mm > > > > How much power would they draw? > > > http://gigaom.com/2012/06/21/so-how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ipad-every-year/ > > "The analysis shows that each model of the iPad consumes less than 12 kWh > of elelctricity over the course of a year, based on a full charge every other > day." > > ...A LOT. Assuming a year is 365 days, thats 8760 hours. And if 12kWh is the total energy consumed in those 8760 hours, it gives an average power consumption of about 1.37W. So your 13158 of them would have an average power consumption of about 18kW. Big, yes, but not ridiculous. But... I would gues that 12kWh figure is for the 'norma' use fo the Ipad, not usein the processor flat-out all the time. Against that, I guess some of the power goes to the RF communications stuff and even more to the display and backpligth, which wouldn't bee needed in this application. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 1 20:32:44 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 18:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?Re=3A_World^=D2s_top_supercomputer_from_^=D109_?= =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130401180515.O43038@shell.lmi.net> > > >> 13,158 iPads? > > > That's less than one and a quarter kilometers! x 241.2mm x 185.7mm > > > How much power would they draw? > > http://gigaom.com/2012/06/21/so-how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ipad-every-year/ > > "The analysis shows that each model of the iPad consumes less than 12 kWh > > of elelctricity over the course of a year, based on a full charge every other > > day." > > ...A LOT. On Mon, 1 Apr 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > Assuming a year is 365 days, thats 8760 hours. And if 12kWh is the total > energy consumed in those 8760 hours, it gives an average power > consumption of about 1.37W. So your 13158 of them would have an average > power consumption of about 18kW. Big, yes, but not ridiculous. It helps to look at the numbers. 1.37W ??!? REALLY??!? > But... I would gues that 12kWh figure is for the 'norma' use fo the Ipad, > not usein the processor flat-out all the time. Against that, I guess > some of the power goes to the RF communications stuff and even more to > the display and backpligth, which wouldn't bee needed in this application. AND that would require that it gets 48 hours of use from each charge! ("full charge every other day") So, it is presumably assuming a "reasonable" usage of prob'ly no more than 8 hours use per day. Does anybody know what the actual POWER CONSUMPTION of the device is, not "what will my electric bill be if I charge it every other day?" Can it RUN off of a wall-wart? Would that not be a little more efficient than running down the batteries and then recharging them? It might even be possible to design a more efficient multi-output power supply, rather than a few miles of outlet strips with wall-warts. However, if you were to run it off batteries, and charge them every other day, it could be PORTABLE! How big a truck? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dave13 at dunfield.com Mon Apr 1 21:39:01 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 21:39:01 -0500 Subject: Did Dave Dunfield's cp/m archive on classiccmp.org go boom ? Message-ID: <515A36B5.7681.339201D@dave13.dunfield.com> > >>> None of my links are working anymore. Just gives a 503 error. I > >>> need me some disk images. > >> Apparently no one has heard from Dave in a while. > > > > Oh man. Here we go again >MUCH more important, >Is Dave OK? Dave is alive and (mostly) well. Sorry Guys, I just don't have much time to participate in the list these days. I do browse through the threads every month or two using the web archive. I've not taken my site down - it is hosted on Classiccmp which does seem to be having a few problems as of late - today I am getting notices that "the site is unavailable due to maintenance or capacity" - I'm guessing the latter, because hit reload a couple of times and it will come up (I had the same issue reading the list). Regards, Dave -- dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From dgunix at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 01:39:02 2013 From: dgunix at gmail.com (Adam) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 09:39:02 +0300 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 4:58 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 03/31/2013 08:14 PM, geneb wrote: > >> 6030 days ain't too shabby. :) >> >> http://arstechnica.com/civis/**viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1199529 >> >> g. >> >> Nice... Indeed. 16.5 years is really something to aspire to. One of my oldest server is almost at 6 years - 10.5 years to go (!!) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 09:36:00 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 07:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle "obsolete" four year old systems? Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 2 09:42:37 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:42:37 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> On 04/02/2013 10:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle > "obsolete" four year old systems? > > Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current > models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. Smart people get the amazing uptime. Sheep, and people who work in companies whose purchasing agents who get kickbacks from salesmen...they don't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 10:04:41 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 15:04:41 +0000 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Has it had a kernel update ever? Uptime can often mean vulnerable services too. -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:42:37 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... On 04/02/2013 10:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle > "obsolete" four year old systems? > > Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current > models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. Smart people get the amazing uptime. Sheep, and people who work in companies whose purchasing agents who get kickbacks from salesmen...they don't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 10:09:46 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 08:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130402080451.T55035@shell.lmi.net> > > How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle > > "obsolete" four year old systems? > > Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current > > models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > Smart people get the amazing uptime. Sheep, and people who work in > companies whose purchasing agents who get kickbacks from salesmen...they > don't. How much trouble would we get into for hanging onto and using those 184 iPads, when the other 13,000 of the 13184 get crushed? I guess that I know the answer to that - they tried to fire Monte for dumpster diving, and before holding the hearing, they dumpstered his collection and cleared his office and store-roomS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 2 10:11:05 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 11:11:05 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> Theoretically, yes...but the kernel is a relatively small portion of the code, and individual services (and sometimes even device drivers, network stacks, etc) can be patched and/or replaced at will without rebooting on most systems. -Dave On 04/02/2013 11:04 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Has it had a kernel update ever? Uptime can often mean vulnerable services too. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:42:37 > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... > > On 04/02/2013 10:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle >> "obsolete" four year old systems? >> >> Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current >> models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. > > Smart people get the amazing uptime. Sheep, and people who work in > companies whose purchasing agents who get kickbacks from salesmen...they don't. > > -Dave > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 10:15:22 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 10:15:22 -0500 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious to see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, and was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the game that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder which came first, because the specifications for the two machines are virtually identical. On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an > interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. > http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I > > Terry (Tez) > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 10:30:40 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 08:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Sam O'nella wrote: > Has it had a kernel update ever? Uptime can often mean vulnerable > services too. It is possible to design a system that does not require rebooting when replacing a component that is not currently in use. If the interface of the component is adequately stabilized and documented, that "not in use" could even be an interrupt. Memory space garbage collection, when properly done, does NOT require rebooting. But systems that screw up on releasing allocated resources when they are no longer needed, NEED a complete restart periodically. Can the 13184 iPads be hot-swapped? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Apr 2 10:33:13 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:33:13 +0100 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Were I used to work we had a Novell 4.1 server that had been up for five plus years. I was the one who drew the short straw when in needed to be moved. Despite everyone's fears, it did come back up no problem. I miss Novell. On Apr 2, 2013 4:27 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > Theoretically, yes...but the kernel is a relatively small portion of the > code, and individual services (and sometimes even device drivers, network > stacks, etc) can be patched and/or replaced at will without rebooting on > most > systems. > > -Dave > > On 04/02/2013 11:04 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > > Has it had a kernel update ever? Uptime can often mean vulnerable > services too. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave McGuire > > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:42:37 > > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts< > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... > > > > On 04/02/2013 10:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle > >> "obsolete" four year old systems? > >> > >> Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current > >> models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. > > > > Smart people get the amazing uptime. Sheep, and people who work in > > companies whose purchasing agents who get kickbacks from salesmen...they > don't. > > > > -Dave > > > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 10:45:40 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:45:40 -0500 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: <51588F4A.1080603@neurotica.com> References: <5158888D.4020702@neurotica.com> <51588F4A.1080603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515AFD24.2020904@gmail.com> On 03/31/2013 02:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I love seeing and reading about these Acorn machines. I'm an embedded > systems developer; I work with ARM processors (mostly ARM7) every day and > really like them. It's cool to see and learn about their heritage. You might like this one - it's a first-generation ARM on an ISA card: http://www.patooie.com/temp/armappisa.jpg I think that the 40-pin IC in the lower-right is a standard Acorn Tube ULA, with a bit of glue logic to marry it up to the ISA bus - although it's a different animal to any of Acorn's other offerings of that era (e.g. it's not just the ARM eval kit circuit in an ISA form-factor). The firmware (I had the ROMs out for archiving when I took that photo) is dated June of '87, which is the same time that the Archimedes was released to the world; the board was most likely a way of attracting developers to the platform by making it easy to run ARM code on a PC. RAM is 4MB, I think, in 32 x 1Mbit parts. I do have an ARM Evaluation Kit too (the ARM co-processor for the BBC micro), along with another ARM-based ISA card (this time with a local I/O controller and expansion connector). cheers Jules From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Tue Apr 2 08:37:01 2013 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 00:37:01 +1100 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80710309-9E0D-4375-9AB2-D76222BF5238@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 02/04/2013, at 12:19 AM, geneb wrote: >> > Don't forget that you can run RiscOS on the Raspberry Pi now as well. On my list of things to do with my Pi. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 2 10:45:59 2013 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:45:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tuesday, 2 April 2013, 16:11 Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... ? Theoretically, yes...but the kernel is a relatively small portion of the code, and individual services (and sometimes even device drivers, network stacks, etc) can be patched and/or replaced at will without rebooting on most systems. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave On 04/02/2013 11:04 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Has it had a kernel update ever? Uptime can often mean vulnerable services too. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:42:37 > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >? > Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... > > On 04/02/2013 10:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle >> "obsolete" four year old systems? >> >> Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current >> models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. > >? Smart people get the amazing uptime.? Sheep, and people who work in > companies whose purchasing agents who get kickbacks from salesmen...they don't. > >? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 2 10:53:31 2013 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 11:53:31 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130402155331.GA22057@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle > "obsolete" four year old systems? > > Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current > models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. To get amazing uptimes, just ensure your servers are sealed behind drywall: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/04/12/missing_novell_server_discovered_after/ -spc (Best personal uptime for a server---336 days) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 11:10:42 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 16:10:42 +0000 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Sam O'nella" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 02/04/2013 16:04:41 Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... >Has it had a kernel update ever? Uptime can often mean vulnerable >services too. Its netware, it will stay up for ever. I have found "lost and forgotton" netware servers in all sorts of odd places. I do remember one server that was re-booted after a power outage and it failed to come back. They had run out of disk space so had deleted some "old files" that no one seemed to use. They were the drivers for the tape drive. Ho Hum.... Dave G4UGM >-----Original Message----- >From: Dave McGuire >Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:42:37 >To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... > >On 04/02/2013 10:36 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts >>dismantle >> "obsolete" four year old systems? >> >> Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current >> models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. > > Smart people get the amazing uptime. Sheep, and people who work in >companies whose purchasing agents who get kickbacks from >salesmen...they don't. > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA > From jon at jonworld.com Tue Apr 2 11:13:56 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 12:13:56 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:45 AM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial Solaris these days. What you can/can't run Solaris 10 on, Solaris 11 on, etc. But that's another thread all on its own. I'm an ex-HP/ArcSight guy who now does ArcSight consulting with a small firm, and we have a lot of great customers. That said, some of those customers are using older (3-5 years old) appliance hardware which was sold by ArcSight (pre-HP.) The hardware works fine and is sized appropriately for their needs, but HP won't support the latest software upgrades on it, and those software upgrades are required to avoid a nasty XSS bug. So I can't upgrade a keep a customer's system secure because they aren't running the most recent ($$$) hardware. It doesn't help that the original hardware ArcSight used for their appliances was Dell-based, and now being owned by HP it's kind of a black eye for HP to keep supporting Dell-based HW. Meanwhile I'm trying to be a good partner/VAR/trusted advisor to my customers, but the vendor has totally put the squeeze on me. Yes, you really don't need new hardware for your environment due to capacity issues, but you do if you want to ensure the product you use for security monitoring is secure, you need to fork out $50k+. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 11:16:09 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 12:16:09 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130402155331.GA22057@brevard.conman.org> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <20130402155331.GA22057@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <515B0449.4050005@gmail.com> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: >> How can anybody get amazing uptime, if the suits and contracts dismantle >> "obsolete" four year old systems? >> >> Surely it will be less than 4 years before Apple declares the current >> models "obsolete", and the 13,000 iPads need to be replaced. > > To get amazing uptimes, just ensure your servers are sealed behind > drywall: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/04/12/missing_novell_server_discovered_after/ I had something similar happen at IBM with a PS/2 Model 80. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 2 11:43:18 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 12:43:18 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> On 04/02/2013 12:13 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:45 AM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > >> Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? > > Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial Solaris these days. What you can/can't run Solaris 10 on, Solaris 11 on, etc. But that's another thread all on its own. > > I'm an ex-HP/ArcSight guy who now does ArcSight consulting with a small firm, and we have a lot of great customers. That said, some of those customers are using older (3-5 years old) appliance hardware which was sold by ArcSight (pre-HP.) The hardware works fine and is sized appropriately for their needs, but HP won't support the latest software upgrades on it, and those software upgrades are required to avoid a nasty XSS bug. So I can't upgrade a keep a customer's system secure because they aren't running the most recent ($$$) hardware. It doesn't help that the original hardware ArcSight used for their appliances was Dell-based, and now being owned by HP it's kind of a black eye for HP to keep supporting Dell-based HW. > > Meanwhile I'm trying to be a good partner/VAR/trusted advisor to my customers, but the vendor has totally put the squeeze on me. Yes, you really don't need new hardware for your environment due to capacity issues, but you do if you want to ensure the product you use for security monitoring is secure, you need to fork out $50k+. Damn suits. This is what happens when our society allows people who are better suited to being late-shift fast food restaurant managers, or perhaps just bank robbers, get into upper management. Of course it's more common than not. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 11:53:15 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 09:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130402095136.S56495@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > Damn suits. This is what happens when our society allows people who > are better suited to being late-shift fast food restaurant managers, or > perhaps just bank robbers, get into upper management. But, by putting them into upper management (and college administration), we've maintained a much better class of late-shift fast food restaurant managers and bank robbers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wgungfu at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 11:08:06 2013 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 11:08:06 -0500 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not sure what you mean, both Spectravideo and Yamaha released MSX machines in the US. They never caught on, so it wasn't for a significant amount of time. But they were here. On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious to > see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, and > was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the game > that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one > presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder which > came first, because the specifications for the two machines are virtually > identical. > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Terry Stewart >wrote: > > > An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an > > interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. > > http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > -- Marty From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 2 14:30:37 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 12:30:37 -0700 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515B31DD.1020509@sydex.com> On 04/02/2013 09:08 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Not sure what you mean, both Spectravideo and Yamaha released MSX machines > in the US. They never caught on, so it wasn't for a significant amount of > time. But they were here. It wasn't the first time a Japanese-origin idea didn't catch on. How about TRON? --Chuck From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 14:57:03 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 14:57:03 -0500 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If they did it must have been extremely limited distribution, I've never seen an MSX variant in a store or in the wild ever. On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Not sure what you mean, both Spectravideo and Yamaha released MSX machines > in the US. They never caught on, so it wasn't for a significant amount of > time. But they were here. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans >wrote: > > > Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious to > > see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, > and > > was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the > game > > that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one > > presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder which > > came first, because the specifications for the two machines are virtually > > identical. > > > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Terry Stewart > >wrote: > > > > > An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an > > > interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. > > > http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I > > > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > > > > > > > -- > Marty > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Apr 2 15:27:44 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 09:27:44 +1300 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I'm sure they were available in the U.S. Spectravideo was a U.S. company and the SV-318 was announced at the winter CES in Las Vagas. (see http://www.samdal.com/sv318.htm) Just not very visible maybe? Terry (Tez) On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:08 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Not sure what you mean, both Spectravideo and Yamaha released MSX machines > in the US. They never caught on, so it wasn't for a significant amount of > time. But they were here. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans >wrote: > > > Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious to > > see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, > and > > was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the > game > > that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one > > presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder which > > came first, because the specifications for the two machines are virtually > > identical. > > > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Terry Stewart > >wrote: > > > > > An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an > > > interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. > > > http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I > > > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > > > > > > > -- > Marty > From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 15:32:08 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 15:32:08 -0500 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah... I Googled quickly and saw they were a US based company... this was a bit of a surprise to me... for some reason I always figured they were a UK based outfit. In any case, yes, not very visible. I think I do recall seeing an advertisement or two for them in Creative Computing magazine but apart from that not much else. On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Yes, I'm sure they were available in the U.S. Spectravideo was a U.S. > company and the SV-318 was announced at the winter CES in Las Vagas. (see > http://www.samdal.com/sv318.htm) > > Just not very visible maybe? > > Terry (Tez) > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:08 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > > > Not sure what you mean, both Spectravideo and Yamaha released MSX > machines > > in the US. They never caught on, so it wasn't for a significant amount of > > time. But they were here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans > >wrote: > > > > > Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious > to > > > see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, > > and > > > was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the > > game > > > that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one > > > presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder > which > > > came first, because the specifications for the two machines are > virtually > > > identical. > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Terry Stewart < > terry at webweavers.co.nz > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an > > > > interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. > > > > http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I > > > > > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Marty > > > From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Apr 2 15:43:43 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:43:43 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> On 04/01/2013 02:33 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? > What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? > Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with needs, and > upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall machine? What would you replace? The CPU? Then you need a new socket and then you need a new motherboard. I suppose you could hold it against them that they didn't make the CPU's pin compatible, but that's only viable for a few years. The pin count changes as more and more features are moved onboard the CPU. And I suppose you could hold it against them that they didn't put the CPU on a daughterboard, but then the cost of manufacturing of the daughterboard would probably be close to a whole motherboard. Much easier to throw out and replace and let somebody else worry about assembly. Ram speeds go up, so you want to replace those when you get a new CPU as well. What is left? Power supplies and fans? yeah, those probably have a four more years in them. Probably would make sense to reuse. /P From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 16:31:39 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 14:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> > > Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? > > What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? > > Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with needs, and > > upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall machine? On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Pontus wrote: > What would you replace? The CPU? Then you need a new socket and then you > need a new motherboard. I suppose you could hold it against them that > they didn't make the CPU's pin compatible, but that's only viable for a > few years. The pin count changes as more and more features are moved > onboard the CPU. And I suppose you could hold it against them that they > didn't put the CPU on a daughterboard, but then the cost of > manufacturing of the daughterboard would probably be close to a whole > motherboard. Much easier to throw out and replace and let somebody else > worry about assembly. > Ram speeds go up, so you want to replace those when you get a new CPU as > well. > What is left? Power supplies and fans? yeah, those probably have a four > more years in them. Probably would make sense to reuse. I'm having a little difficulty visualizing "The World's Top Supercomputer" as being a single chip CPU on a motherboard. When did "supercomputers" become single board devices? "Put the CPU on a daughterboard"? I'm kinda stuck thinking in terms of adding another rack that supplants PART of the CPU functions with faster, and relegating the rack(s) that it replaced to anciliary functions. I never realized that inside one of those racks there was a CPU chip plugged into a socket. From sales at elecplus.com Tue Apr 2 16:43:20 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:43:20 -0500 Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?RE:_World's_top_supercomputer_from_'09_is_now_obsolete=2C_wi?= =?us-ascii?Q?ll_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <06f701ce2feb$17ef1e90$47cd5bb0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 4:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: World's top supercomputer from '09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled You guys are making me wish I had hung onto the old Cray supercomputers that we had abt 15 years ago. Sold the hard drives, and scrapped the rest. The IBM Big Blue cabinets, we shipped via common carrier, and some idiot ran his forklift through the cabinets! The DEC refrigerator-sized cabinets, we pulled the drives and boards, scrapped the rest. If I had only known then what I know now.... ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6218 - Release Date: 04/01/13 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 16:55:27 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 16:55:27 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?V29ybGTigJlzIHRvcCBzdXBlcmNvbXB1dGVyIGZyb20g4oCYMDk=?= =?UTF-8?B?IGlzIG5vdyBvYnNvbGV0ZSwgd2lsbCBiZSBkaXNtYW50bGVk?= In-Reply-To: <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515B53CF.2080208@gmail.com> On 04/02/2013 04:31 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? >>> What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? >>> Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with needs, and >>> upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall machine? > On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Pontus wrote: >> What would you replace? The CPU? Then you need a new socket and then you >> need a new motherboard. I suppose you could hold it against them that >> they didn't make the CPU's pin compatible, but that's only viable for a >> few years. The pin count changes as more and more features are moved >> onboard the CPU. And I suppose you could hold it against them that they >> didn't put the CPU on a daughterboard, but then the cost of >> manufacturing of the daughterboard would probably be close to a whole >> motherboard. Much easier to throw out and replace and let somebody else >> worry about assembly. >> Ram speeds go up, so you want to replace those when you get a new CPU as >> well. >> What is left? Power supplies and fans? yeah, those probably have a four >> more years in them. Probably would make sense to reuse. > > I'm having a little difficulty visualizing "The World's Top Supercomputer" > as being a single chip CPU on a motherboard. > > When did "supercomputers" become single board devices? > "Put the CPU on a daughterboard"? > > I'm kinda stuck thinking in terms of adding another rack that > supplants PART of the CPU functions with faster, and relegating > the rack(s) that it replaced to anciliary functions. > > I never realized that inside one of those racks there was a > CPU chip plugged into a socket. I expect it's lots of CPUs per board, probably soldered direct to the PCB, and then lots of boards per rack, with custom interconnects between boards and racks. To a point you may be able to add racks and boards, but once the individual CPUs (or the memory, or the interconnects) are deemed to be too slow then it's game over. As Paul says, it may be possible to keep the power supplies (and the empty racks) but that's such a small part of the whole - and the topology might not even be suited to whatever comes next anyway - that there's little point. I suppose the sheer logistics of moving something like this as a going concern - particularly if the space is needed for a replacement - are what prevents the whole lot being sold on to some other entity (i.e. just because it's not fast enough for you doesn't mean that it's useless to someone else) cheers Jules From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 2 17:34:01 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 15:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFdvcmxk4oCZcyB0b3Agc3VwZXJjb21wdXRlciBmcm9tIOKAmDA5IGlz?= =?utf-8?B?IG5vdyBvYnNvbGV0ZSwgd2lsbCBiZSBkaXNtYW50bGVk?= In-Reply-To: <515B53CF.2080208@gmail.com> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <515B53CF.2080208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1364942041.20590.YahooMailNeo@web141401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >>> Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? >>> What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? >>> Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with needs, and >>> upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall machine? ?As time goes on the density of the processors goes up but its not just the CPU's. Its what goes on behind the processors such as SGI's MIPS supercomputers of a few years ago. They used a distributed shared memory that required circuitry that connected processors, local memory, a network interface, and the I/O. These systems can be difficult to add onto brick wise and the only way to increase speed is to add racks which adds power consumption. Some of the technologies like Infiniband does have an upgrade path where older network technologies like HIPPI were not. Some of the Crays are field upgradable to new processor blades. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehCgG9yZQmg From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 20:03:09 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 21:03:09 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=9109_is_now_ob?= =?windows-1252?Q?solete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <1364942041.20590.YahooMailNeo@web141401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <515B53CF.2080208@gmail.com> <1364942041.20590.YahooMailNeo@web141401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Brian Roth wrote: > > As time goes on the density of the processors goes up but its not just > the CPU's. Its what goes on behind the processors such as SGI's MIPS > supercomputers of a few years ago. They used a distributed shared memory > that required circuitry that connected processors, local memory, a network > interface, and the > I/O. These systems can be difficult to add onto brick wise and the only > way to increase speed is to add racks which adds power consumption. > The other problem with Roadrunner was it was a hybrid design - AMD Opterons combined with cell processors, like the one in the Playstation 3. At the time these were screaming fast, but difficult to program. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Apr 2 20:15:27 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 20:15:27 -0500 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515B82AF.70102@brutman.com> On 3/31/2013 7:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/03/worlds-fastest-supercomputer-from-09-is-now-obsolete-will-be-dismantled/ > > Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? > What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? Nothing really. People learn. Four years is a long time at the high end of computer science. I worked on the first BlueGene (BlueGene/L) to make the list. Not too long after that machine fell off the list RoadRunner made the top of the list. (I had a lot of friends who worked on RoadRunner. Both were IBM machines.) BlueGene/L was quite a bit different than the NEC machine that held the top slot before it. There were 64K "compute nodes" and something on the order of 1K "I/O" nodes. Both variants used an embedded style PowerPC system on a chip, but they were wired a little differently. Besides the massive number of processors there was a lot of thought put into the communications between processors ("tree" and "torus") to make it suitable for parallel workloads that still required some coordination. RoadRunner was a much different beast. It was essentially IBM QS22 Blades (Cell processor with enhanced double precision support compared to the variant used in the Sony PS3) and another blade (AMD x86 I think). Two QS22s and the other blade were packaged together in what we called a "tri-blade", which served as the basic building block. The x86 blade handled I/O and management and left the CPU intensive work to the QS22s. It's really easy to throw rocks a something you don't understand. Some light reading on Wikipedia would have shown you how much different the different #1 machines are from each other. Wait until we see the "exascale" style machines ... From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 20:15:43 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 21:15:43 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=9109_is?= =?windows-1252?Q?_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <515B53CF.2080208@gmail.com> <1364942041.20590.YahooMailNeo@web141401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <64C5B0A6-3A71-4C1D-92CB-751ED456B873@gmail.com> On Apr 2, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Brian Roth wrote: > >> >> As time goes on the density of the processors goes up but its not just >> the CPU's. Its what goes on behind the processors such as SGI's MIPS >> supercomputers of a few years ago. They used a distributed shared memory >> that required circuitry that connected processors, local memory, a network >> interface, and the >> I/O. These systems can be difficult to add onto brick wise and the only >> way to increase speed is to add racks which adds power consumption. >> > > The other problem with Roadrunner was it was a hybrid design - AMD Opterons > combined with cell processors, like the one in the Playstation 3. At the > time these were screaming fast, but difficult to program. They're about as difficult to program as any other supercomputer processor. The whole point of the original Cray architecture (and other Cray-designed CDC supercomputers, IIRC) was that there were I/O processors performing the data transfers to provide the CPU(s) enough data to chew on at full throttle. Anything less, and you were wasting processor power. The Cell's ring data structure wasn't all that different. Which, I guess, is not to say that they weren't difficult to program, but that supercomputer programmers probably should have felt right at home. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 2 20:57:41 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 21:57:41 -0400 Subject: Planned obsolescence, and other crimes - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <515B8C95.9050406@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/04/13 12:13 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:45 AM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > >> Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? > > Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial > Solaris these days. What you can/can't run Solaris 10 on, Solaris 11 > on, etc. But that's another thread all on its own. > > I'm an ex-HP/ArcSight guy who now does ArcSight consulting with a > small firm, and we have a lot of great customers. That said, some of > those customers are using older (3-5 years old) appliance hardware > which was sold by ArcSight (pre-HP.) The hardware works fine and is > sized appropriately for their needs, but HP won't support the latest > software upgrades on it, and those software upgrades are required to > avoid a nasty XSS bug. So I can't upgrade a keep a customer's system > secure because they aren't running the most recent ($$$) hardware. It That kind of tying hardware upgrade to a purely arbitrary software decision should be illegal, period. That it is not, is a sign of how far things are out of whack. Waste might have been acceptable for a few recent decades, but it won't always be acceptable, or even possible. --Toby > doesn't help that the original hardware ArcSight used for their > appliances was Dell-based,... From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 2 20:59:35 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 21:59:35 -0400 Subject: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/04/13 12:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/02/2013 12:13 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:45 AM, R SMALLWOOD >> wrote: >> >>> Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? >> >> Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial Solaris >> these days. ... Yes, you >> really don't need new hardware for your environment due to capacity >> issues, but you do if you want to ensure the product you use for >> security monitoring is secure, you need to fork out $50k+. > > Damn suits. This is what happens when our society allows people who are > better suited to being late-shift fast food restaurant managers, or > perhaps just bank robbers, get into upper management. This should offend any engineer, who if she is any good, is well trained in parsimony of solutions. --Toby > > Of course it's more common than not. > > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 2 21:12:04 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:12:04 -0400 Subject: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> On 04/02/2013 09:59 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? >>> >>> Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial Solaris >>> these days. ... Yes, you >>> really don't need new hardware for your environment due to capacity >>> issues, but you do if you want to ensure the product you use for >>> security monitoring is secure, you need to fork out $50k+. >> >> Damn suits. This is what happens when our society allows people who are >> better suited to being late-shift fast food restaurant managers, or >> perhaps just bank robbers, get into upper management. > > This should offend any engineer, who if she is any good, is well trained in > parsimony of solutions. Yes. I had an argument a few days ago with an "engineer" (who is a salesman who apparently USED to be an engineer) who loves the fact that people send huge HTML-laden emails around, because he SELLS STORAGE SYSTEMS. I thought I'd vomit. But I flamed him to the waterline instead. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Apr 2 21:50:15 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 19:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/02/2013 09:59 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? >>>> >>>> Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial Solaris >>>> these days. ... Yes, you >>>> really don't need new hardware for your environment due to capacity >>>> issues, but you do if you want to ensure the product you use for >>>> security monitoring is secure, you need to fork out $50k+. >>> >>> Damn suits. This is what happens when our society allows people who are >>> better suited to being late-shift fast food restaurant managers, or >>> perhaps just bank robbers, get into upper management. >> >> This should offend any engineer, who if she is any good, is well trained in >> parsimony of solutions. > > Yes. I had an argument a few days ago with an "engineer" (who is a > salesman who apparently USED to be an engineer) who loves the fact that > people send huge HTML-laden emails around, because he SELLS STORAGE SYSTEMS. > > I thought I'd vomit. But I flamed him to the waterline instead. It's times like that I think it would be a really handy ability to vomit on demand. "You make me sick! See!" -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 22:39:45 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 23:39:45 -0400 Subject: SDSL modem, free for the taking Message-ID: <8F76EB40-752C-4E13-8B11-46830B563517@gmail.com> This isn't *exactly* vintage, but I suppose it dates back about... 10-15 years? Anyway, I have a SpeedStream 5250 SDSL modem that was pretty much never used because my parents' house was too far away from the CO to successfully sync. Does anyone want it? If it's not claimed in a week, I'm tempted to recycle it, but those are always words we seem to regret in another 10-15 years. SDSL is/was an interesting technology, but I don't imagine it's making a resurgence any time soon. I'll make the offer on vintage-computer.org as well, which may be a better venue given the amount of folks there who actually seem to want PC-era garbage (not to ding the forum, because it's great, but it's genuinely amazing what some people there will actually take). Free for postage from Philadelphia, PA 19146 (USA). - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Apr 2 22:48:36 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 23:48:36 -0400 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515BA694.2060808@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/04/13 10:50 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> ... I had an argument a few days ago with an "engineer" (who is a >> salesman who apparently USED to be an engineer) who loves the fact that >> people send huge HTML-laden emails around, because he SELLS STORAGE >> SYSTEMS. >> >> I thought I'd vomit. But I flamed him to the waterline instead. > > It's times like that I think it would be a really handy ability to vomit > on demand. "You make me sick! See!" > Pretty sure there are substances that can make this happen. Just need to keep a capsule in your pocket. --Toby From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 2 23:53:55 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 00:53:55 -0400 Subject: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515BB5E3.4020601@neurotica.com> On 04/02/2013 10:50 PM, David Griffith wrote: >>>>>> Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? >>>>> >>>>> Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial Solaris >>>>> these days. ... Yes, you >>>>> really don't need new hardware for your environment due to capacity >>>>> issues, but you do if you want to ensure the product you use for >>>>> security monitoring is secure, you need to fork out $50k+. >>>> >>>> Damn suits. This is what happens when our society allows people who are >>>> better suited to being late-shift fast food restaurant managers, or >>>> perhaps just bank robbers, get into upper management. >>> >>> This should offend any engineer, who if she is any good, is well trained in >>> parsimony of solutions. >> >> Yes. I had an argument a few days ago with an "engineer" (who is a >> salesman who apparently USED to be an engineer) who loves the fact that >> people send huge HTML-laden emails around, because he SELLS STORAGE SYSTEMS. >> >> I thought I'd vomit. But I flamed him to the waterline instead. > > It's times like that I think it would be a really handy ability to vomit on > demand. "You make me sick! See!" Yes! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Apr 2 23:55:04 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 21:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515BA694.2060808@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> <515BA694.2060808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Toby Thain wrote: > On 02/04/13 10:50 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> ... I had an argument a few days ago with an "engineer" (who is a >>> salesman who apparently USED to be an engineer) who loves the fact that >>> people send huge HTML-laden emails around, because he SELLS STORAGE >>> SYSTEMS. >>> >>> I thought I'd vomit. But I flamed him to the waterline instead. >> >> It's times like that I think it would be a really handy ability to vomit >> on demand. "You make me sick! See!" > > Pretty sure there are substances that can make this happen. Just need to > keep a capsule in your pocket. I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant reaction that is required for this application. A former coworker of mine had such a reaction to liquid Pepto-Bismol. For some reason, someone kept a bottle of the stuff in the IT office fridge. One day he complained about something that would be ordinarily treated with Pepto-Bismol. Someone offered him the bottle. He politely declined and told us of his unique reaction: swallow a tiny bit -- instant barf-o-matic. Oddly, he could take the chewables just fine. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 00:08:01 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 01:08:01 -0400 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> <515BA694.2060808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant reaction that is > required for this application. Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you can get. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 3 00:08:41 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 01:08:41 -0400 Subject: An Acorn 4000 checks in In-Reply-To: <515AFD24.2020904@gmail.com> References: <5158888D.4020702@neurotica.com> <51588F4A.1080603@neurotica.com> <515AFD24.2020904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515BB959.2060004@neurotica.com> On 04/02/2013 11:45 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I love seeing and reading about these Acorn machines. I'm an embedded >> systems developer; I work with ARM processors (mostly ARM7) every day and >> really like them. It's cool to see and learn about their heritage. > > You might like this one - it's a first-generation ARM on an ISA card: > > http://www.patooie.com/temp/armappisa.jpg Oh my now that is awesome, isn't it. Great stuff! > I think that the 40-pin IC in the lower-right is a standard Acorn Tube ULA, > with a bit of glue logic to marry it up to the ISA bus - although it's a > different animal to any of Acorn's other offerings of that era (e.g. it's not > just the ARM eval kit circuit in an ISA form-factor). > > The firmware (I had the ROMs out for archiving when I took that photo) is > dated June of '87, which is the same time that the Archimedes was released to > the world; the board was most likely a way of attracting developers to the > platform by making it easy to run ARM code on a PC. > > RAM is 4MB, I think, in 32 x 1Mbit parts. > > I do have an ARM Evaluation Kit too (the ARM co-processor for the BBC micro), > along with another ARM-based ISA card (this time with a local I/O controller > and expansion connector). Great stuff! Let me know if you ever want to part with anything early-ARM. (I sure wouldn't if I were you, but I had to suggest it!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Apr 3 01:15:05 2013 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:15:05 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?World=E2=80=99s_top_supercom?= =?utf-8?Q?puter_from_=E2=80=9809?= is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Apr 02, 2013 at 02:31:39PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I'm having a little difficulty visualizing "The World's Top Supercomputer" > as being a single chip CPU on a motherboard. > > When did "supercomputers" become single board devices? > "Put the CPU on a daughterboard"? Do you really think I'm that stupid? I've poked my head into plenty of supercomputers, in fact I have the very rack of a top500 list entry in my garage. I'm not even going to reply to that... > I'm kinda stuck thinking in terms of adding another rack that > supplants PART of the CPU functions with faster, and relegating > the rack(s) that it replaced to anciliary functions. What anciliary functions? http servers? storage? The performance per watt is way of for that kind of application. Hopefully, the machines won't hit the recyclers but end up in hands of students, less fortunate and hobbyists. > I never realized that inside one of those racks there was a > CPU chip plugged into a socket. Again? This is close to insulting. Regards, Pontus. From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Apr 3 01:38:10 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:38:10 +0200 Subject: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20130403083810.nmm7q9xb08j4owwc@webmail.opentransfer.com> Quoting Pontus Pihlgren : > On Tue, Apr 02, 2013 at 02:31:39PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: >> When did "supercomputers" become single board devices? >> "Put the CPU on a daughterboard"? > > Do you really think I'm that stupid? I've poked my head into plenty of > supercomputers, in fact I have the very rack of a top500 list entry in > my garage. Just for entertainment. That's exactly how Intel introduced the i860 back then. "cray on a chip" if I remember correctly ;-) From starbase89 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 01:44:58 2013 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 02:44:58 -0400 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> <515BA694.2060808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Finger down your throat seems to work well for the fashion industry On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:08 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > > I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant reaction that > is > > required for this application. > > Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you can get. > > -- > Will > -- Joseph Giliberti InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 3 04:08:01 2013 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 10:08:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Its funny you should mention Solaris. In addition to my main DEC collection I have a few Sun systems including a nice E3000 server. I have a kosher original SUN copy of? Solaris 9 . You can get Solaris 10 but its on DVD iso images and the E3000 only has a CD and I would need? a SCSI DVD to load it.? ? Oracle have now made Oracle Linux (PC version) downloadable for free. I did it and it works just fine. ? There's a promise of Oracle Linux for Sparc and that would really bring the SUN systems to life. ________________________________ From: Jonathan Katz To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tuesday, 2 April 2013, 17:13 Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... On Apr 2, 2013, at 11:45 AM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > Does the phrase "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anybody? Don't get me started. Look at the upgrade chain for commercial Solaris these days. What you can/can't run Solaris 10 on, Solaris 11 on, etc. But that's another thread all on its own. I'm an ex-HP/ArcSight guy who now does ArcSight consulting with a small firm, and we have a lot of great customers. That said, some of those customers are using older (3-5 years old) appliance hardware which was sold by ArcSight (pre-HP.) The hardware works fine and is sized appropriately for their needs, but HP won't support the latest software upgrades on it, and those software upgrades are required to avoid a nasty XSS bug. So I can't upgrade a keep a customer's system secure because they aren't running the most recent ($$$) hardware. It doesn't help that the original hardware ArcSight used for their appliances was Dell-based, and now being owned by HP it's kind of a black eye for HP to keep supporting Dell-based HW. Meanwhile I'm trying to be a good partner/VAR/trusted advisor to my customers, but the vendor has totally put the squeeze on me. Yes, you really don't need new hardware for your environment due to capacity issues, but you do if you want to ensure the product you use for security monitoring is secure, you need to fork out $50k+. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 3 07:36:41 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 05:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, David Griffith wrote: >> SYSTEMS. >> >> I thought I'd vomit. But I flamed him to the waterline instead. > > It's times like that I think it would be a really handy ability to vomit on > demand. "You make me sick! See!" Bah. Why go to that level of discomfort on yourself? A little spritz of Ipecac would really improve the flavor of his/her coffee... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 09:03:16 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:03:16 +0100 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 3 April 2013 10:08, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > Its funny you should mention Solaris. In addition to my main DEC collection I have a few Sun systems including a nice E3000 server. > I have a kosher original SUN copy of Solaris 9 . > You can get Solaris 10 but its on DVD iso images and the E3000 only has a CD and I would need a SCSI DVD to load it. Could you not install it over the network? That's how I got Red Hat 4.2 onto my SPARCstation IPX back in the 1990s. > Oracle have now made Oracle Linux (PC version) downloadable for free. > I did it and it works just fine. > > There's a promise of Oracle Linux for Sparc and that would really bring the SUN systems to life. Oracle Linux is basically CentOS with the name changed. CentOS is Reh Hat Enterprise Linux recompiled from the sources that RH publish. Scientific Linux is the same. Oracle Linux is primarily an effort by Oracle to stab Red Hat in the back. Hidebound corporates who would not touch a Free OS such as CentOS are reassured by the Oracle name and the support contracts. So if either CentOS or Scientific Linux are available on SPARC, just use them. No point waiting for Oracle & no reason to use Oracle's version. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 10:30:51 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:30:51 +0000 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <603356570-1365003049-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405139009-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Last time our company was looking at a requirement to use oracle with some other tools we looked at oracle linux and yes its just redhat certified to work with oracle. The funny part was it was slightly cheaper than redhat for its licensing so we were going to go with OEL just for that however we luckily ended up not needing that product afterall. There was also another redhat knockoff called white box linux which was the similar goal as centos (strip out corporate packages and get it back to opensource). Yet another dead distro that for a while was looking good. -----Original Message----- From: Liam Proven Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:03:16 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... On 3 April 2013 10:08, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > Its funny you should mention Solaris. In addition to my main DEC collection I have a few Sun systems including a nice E3000 server. > I have a kosher original SUN copy of Solaris 9 . > You can get Solaris 10 but its on DVD iso images and the E3000 only has a CD and I would need a SCSI DVD to load it. Could you not install it over the network? That's how I got Red Hat 4.2 onto my SPARCstation IPX back in the 1990s. > Oracle have now made Oracle Linux (PC version) downloadable for free. > I did it and it works just fine. > > There's a promise of Oracle Linux for Sparc and that would really bring the SUN systems to life. Oracle Linux is basically CentOS with the name changed. CentOS is Reh Hat Enterprise Linux recompiled from the sources that RH publish. Scientific Linux is the same. Oracle Linux is primarily an effort by Oracle to stab Red Hat in the back. Hidebound corporates who would not touch a Free OS such as CentOS are reassured by the Oracle name and the support contracts. So if either CentOS or Scientific Linux are available on SPARC, just use them. No point waiting for Oracle & no reason to use Oracle's version. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 3 11:41:14 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 09:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?Q?World=E2=80=99s_top_supercom?= =?utf-8?Q?puter_from_=E2=80=9809?= is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20130403092338.X73571@shell.lmi.net> > On Tue, Apr 02, 2013 at 02:31:39PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I'm having a little difficulty visualizing "The World's Top Supercomputer" > > as being a single chip CPU on a motherboard. > > When did "supercomputers" become single board devices? > > "Put the CPU on a daughterboard"? On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Do you really think I'm that stupid? Of course not. I acknowledge and respect your expertise. And, I certainly had no intention of offending you. > I've poked my head into plenty of > supercomputers, in fact I have the very rack of a top500 list entry in > my garage. > I'm not even going to reply to that... That's why I was so incredulous and taken aback by your OFF THE WALL statements! (YOU were the one who made those statatements - full post below) I even speculated that my whole perception of such machines was wrong and that things had gone through extraordinary changes that I was unaware of! > > I'm kinda stuck thinking in terms of adding another rack that > > supplants PART of the CPU functions with faster, and relegating > > the rack(s) that it replaced to anciliary functions. > What anciliary functions? http servers? storage? The performance per > watt is way of[f] for that kind of application. Thank you > Hopefully, the machines won't hit the recyclers but end up in hands of > students, less fortunate and hobbyists. Let's hope so, but I am cynical about the prospects. > > I never realized that inside one of those racks there was a > > CPU chip plugged into a socket. > Again? This is close to insulting. Then WHY DID YOU SAY IT? Those are YOUR statements that you are being offended by! If you had meant them metaphorically, then I'm sorry, but I missed that, and humbly request that in the future, for the sake of those of us less enlightened, that you pepper your metaphors with phrases such as "It is as if", "Similarly to", "by analogy". If you were joking, or being sarcastic, that also did not come across. You COULD HAVE said, "Designing upgradeability imposes some constraints on performance. In "extreme performance", there is a greater need for custom components obviating any possibility of modularity. It is not like an S100 backplane, where components can be interchangeable and upgradeable. Thus, those constraints would be intolerable." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Here is the full post that referred to supercomputer CPUs in sockets and daughterboards: ---------------------------- Start --------------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 22:43:43 +0200 From: Pontus Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: [windows-1252] World^Rs top supercomputer from ^Q[windows-1252] 09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled [ The following text is in the "windows-1252" character set. ] [ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ] [ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ] On 04/01/2013 02:33 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Built, used for four years, and now DISMANTLED? > What is wrong with their fundamental architecture? > Can't they design one where more could be added to keep up with needs, and > upgrade incrementally and components while keeping the overall machine? What would you replace? The CPU? Then you need a new socket and then you need a new motherboard. I suppose you could hold it against them that they didn't make the CPU's pin compatible, but that's only viable for a few years. The pin count changes as more and more features are moved onboard the CPU. And I suppose you could hold it against them that they didn't put the CPU on a daughterboard, but then the cost of manufacturing of the daughterboard would probably be close to a whole motherboard. Much easier to throw out and replace and let somebody else worry about assembly. Ram speeds go up, so you want to replace those when you get a new CPU as well. What is left? Power supplies and fans? yeah, those probably have a four more years in them. Probably would make sense to reuse. /P ----------------------- End ---------------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 11:52:39 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:52:39 +0100 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <603356570-1365003049-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405139009-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <603356570-1365003049-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-405139009-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On 3 April 2013 16:30, Sam O'nella wrote: > > Last time our company was looking at a requirement to use oracle with some other tools we looked at oracle linux and yes its just redhat certified to work with oracle. The funny part was it was slightly cheaper than redhat for its licensing so we were going to go with OEL just for that however we luckily ended up not needing that product afterall. > > There was also another redhat knockoff called white box linux which was the similar goal as centos (strip out corporate packages and get it back to opensource). Yet another dead distro that for a while was looking good. Indeed. yes, White Box Linux was another version, but there are still two FOSS rebuilds of RHEL so we're not doing too badly. Also, may I suggest that you stick to plain-text emails and bottom-quote on the list, please? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 3 12:29:27 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 13:29:27 -0400 Subject: Solaris, was Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <515C66F7.5080901@neurotica.com> On 04/03/2013 05:08 AM, R SMALLWOOD wrote: > Its funny you should mention Solaris. In addition to my main DEC > collection I have a few Sun systems including a nice E3000 server. I have > a kosher original SUN copy of Solaris 9 . You can get Solaris 10 but its > on DVD iso images and the E3000 only has a CD and I would need a SCSI DVD > to load it. This is OH so very off-topic. You can do a "Jumpstart" install (a very highly-automated form of network installation )if you have another running Solaris system. If you're unfamiliar with that and want to do it, contact me privately, I can help. > Oracle have now made Oracle Linux (PC version) downloadable for free. I > did it and it works just fine. Yuck. I mean, I'm sure it runs great, but it's like Linux of a decade ago. > There's a promise of Oracle Linux for Sparc and that would really bring > the SUN systems to life. But Linux is nowhere near able to take advantage of the architectural strengths of that system. I'm not knocking it; my main desktop system was a 4/610MP (Sun never sold that config, but if they did, that would've been the model number) running Linux, about fifteen years ago. It was great. But Solaris wasn't mature enough to run (for real) at that time...Nowadays, it will really put that hardware (even though the E3K is a bit older) through its paces very, very well. Further, you can run OpenSXCE on there, and see what ultra-modern Solaris can do. That would be neat to try. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jon at jonworld.com Wed Apr 3 13:08:22 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:08:22 -0400 Subject: Solaris, was Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515C66F7.5080901@neurotica.com> References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515C66F7.5080901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Apr 3, 2013, at 1:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > You can do a "Jumpstart" install (a very highly-automated form of network > installation )if you have another running Solaris system. If you're > unfamiliar with that and want to do it, contact me privately, I can help. You can actually jumpstart from an OSX system and a Linux box. There are various tutorials on this. And now Sun gear is becoming vintage hardware (gasp) and Solaris and SunOS Vintage OSes. So it is OT :D I find it hard to believe the E3000 in my basement could be considered vintage. It is circa 1996 so it's 17 years old :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 3 13:19:11 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 14:19:11 -0400 Subject: Solaris, was Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515C66F7.5080901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515C729F.7080206@neurotica.com> On 04/03/2013 02:08 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> You can do a "Jumpstart" install (a very highly-automated form of >> network installation )if you have another running Solaris system. >> If you're unfamiliar with that and want to do it, contact me >> privately, I can help. > > You can actually jumpstart from an OSX system and a Linux box. There > are various tutorials on this. Oh that's neat, I didn't know that! > And now Sun gear is becoming vintage hardware (gasp) and Solaris and > SunOS Vintage OSes. No more so than "all Fords are antiques, because there are antique Fords". Brand new SPARC-based Suns (regardless of the company name on the sticker) were introduced within the past few weeks, the UltraSPARC-T5 is pretty damn impresssive. And Solaris...well, there was a new Solaris release not too long before that. Unless you just meant "really old Suns" or "really old releases of Solaris", of course. > So it is OT :D I find it hard to believe the > E3000 in my basement could be considered vintage. It is circa 1996 so > it's 17 years old :) There's more to "vintage" than just "being old". "We know it when we see it". While I love E3Ks and consider them to be cool, I'd (personally) never consider them to be "vintage". IMO. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 3 13:27:53 2013 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:27:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Solaris, was Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1364980081.87762.YahooMailNeo@web87804.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515C66F7.5080901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1365013673.50799.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> I don't draw any distinction related to age. I have everything from a 1972 PDP 8/e to much more recent systems. My interest is to get?redundant systems?running and keep them running. ? Some I worked with when they were current and some are just plain interesting. ? ? ________________________________ From: Jonathan Katz To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wednesday, 3 April 2013, 19:08 Subject: Re: Solaris, was Re: Amazing uptime... On Apr 3, 2013, at 1:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >? You can do a "Jumpstart" install (a very highly-automated form of network > installation )if you have another running Solaris system.? If you're > unfamiliar with that and want to do it, contact me privately, I can help. You can actually jumpstart from an OSX system and a Linux box. There are various tutorials on this. And now Sun gear is becoming vintage hardware (gasp) and Solaris and SunOS Vintage OSes. So it is OT :D I find it hard to believe the E3000 in my basement could be considered vintage. It is circa 1996 so it's 17 years old :) From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 13:29:40 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:29:40 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=9109_is_now_ob?= =?windows-1252?Q?solete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <64C5B0A6-3A71-4C1D-92CB-751ED456B873@gmail.com> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <515B53CF.2080208@gmail.com> <1364942041.20590.YahooMailNeo@web141401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <64C5B0A6-3A71-4C1D-92CB-751ED456B873@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 9:15 PM, David Riley wrote: > > Which, I guess, is not to say that they weren't difficult to > program, but that supercomputer programmers probably should have > felt right at home > The complaint I heard was the tools were primitive relative to the other architectures out there. You had a somewhat spartan gcc toolchain and BLAS. Compare that with the dozens of highly optimized libraries and toolchains for even generic x86, much less specific chips if you're talking about Intel, especially when you're dealing with threading. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 13:47:48 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:47:48 -0300 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube References: Message-ID: > Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious to > see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, and > was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the game > that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one > presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder which > came first, because the specifications for the two machines are virtually > identical. Do you know a Brazilian (called Eduardo Mello) adapted some MSX games to Colecovision and vice-versa, and made some homebrew games for the Colecovision? Many MSX games were made for MSX and Colecovision on it's time... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 13:48:45 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:48:45 -0300 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube References: Message-ID: <5ADD1FF752F2413CA895DDC7F58467F8@tababook> AFAIR, it was widely distribuited. Look for spectravideo computers and CX5M/CX7M computers --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey Oltmans" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 4:57 PM Subject: Re: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube > If they did it must have been extremely limited distribution, I've never > seen an MSX variant in a store or in the wild ever. > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Martin Goldberg > wrote: > >> Not sure what you mean, both Spectravideo and Yamaha released MSX >> machines >> in the US. They never caught on, so it wasn't for a significant amount of >> time. But they were here. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans > >wrote: >> >> > Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious >> > to >> > see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, >> and >> > was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the >> game >> > that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one >> > presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder >> > which >> > came first, because the specifications for the two machines are >> > virtually >> > identical. >> > >> > On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Terry Stewart > > >wrote: >> > >> > > An attention-getting red joystick and superior BASIC makes for an >> > > interesting home computer. My Spectravideo SV-318. >> > > http://youtu.be/LwvYpojtr0I >> > > >> > > Terry (Tez) >> > > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Marty >> From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Apr 3 14:00:20 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:00:20 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <20130403092338.X73571@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> <20130403092338.X73571@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515C7C44.7000600@update.uu.se> On 04/03/2013 06:41 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > That's why I was so incredulous and taken aback by your OFF THE WALL > statements! (YOU were the one who made those statatements - full post > below) I even speculated that my whole perception of such machines was > wrong and that things had gone through extraordinary changes that I > was unaware of! I apparently made the false assumption that we both shared the view on what the Road Runner really is, a collection of CPU's each in its own motherboard each in its own case. So I carelessly thought that when I referred to the possibility of replacing the CPU it would be clear that each CPU would be replaced from it's socket. I seems that you view Roadrunner as _one_ computer and then it certainly becomes ridiculous to talk about _the_ CPU in _a_ socket and I understand why you think I was off the wall. I'm sorry for the confusion and I hope you are not just being sarcastic with me, that translates badly in text. Going back to topic. It certainly is possible to design a super computer that is modular. The SGI Origin2k is a wonderful example of that, though it only scales to a certain limit (128 CPUs I think). Heck, even the Roadrunner is quite modular, you could probably cut it up into a hundred different pieces and each piece would be quite a competent cluster of computer for a researcher willing to pay the power bill. Kind Regards, Pontus. From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 14:02:07 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:02:07 -0500 Subject: My Spectravideo SV-318 on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I am familiar with him. The biggest difference between the CV and the MSX are the sound chip, and the amount of RAM they have. The CV only has 1K of SRAM. He did that super game module to add 32K of RAM and the sound chip from the MSX to make conversions easier. That should make changes mostly a matter of adapting the controller inputs, and remapping the IN/OUT calls in the game programs. On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > Very interesting Terry. MSX never made it stateside, so I was curious to >> see this. In particular I'm a big Coleco Vision and ADAM computer nut, and >> was surprised to see the splash screen and game options screen on the game >> that you showed. The game option screen looks identical to the one >> presented on Coleco Vision cartridge games to the letter. I wonder which >> came first, because the specifications for the two machines are virtually >> identical. >> > > Do you know a Brazilian (called Eduardo Mello) adapted some MSX games > to Colecovision and vice-versa, and made some homebrew games for the > Colecovision? > > Many MSX games were made for MSX and Colecovision on it's time... > From roelof_klaas at gmx.com Wed Apr 3 14:50:26 2013 From: roelof_klaas at gmx.com (Roland Huisman) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:50:26 +0200 Subject: Wanted: Xebec S1410 and Astec AC9251 powerunit Message-ID: <20130403195026.221690@gmx.com> Hello Everyone, I'm currently restoring a Dutch Holborn 6100 computer. It is an 1982 CP/M machine. Originally it had a hard drive. But the RMS-518 drive, the Xebec S1410 and the Astec AC9251 power supply are gone. Can anyone help me getting the original Xebec controller and power supply? I'd put some pictures on this Dutch forum. http://philipsradios.nl/forum/index.php?id=14288 And can anyone tell me the specifications of the RMS-518 disk? I've found the 503, 506, 512 and 514 but not the RMS 518... Thanks in advance! Regards, Roland From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Apr 3 16:20:21 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 21:20:21 +0000 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 4/2/13 11:44 PM, "Joe Giliberti" wrote: >Finger down your throat seems to work well for the fashion industry > > >On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:08 AM, William Donzelli >wrote: > >> > I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant reaction >>that >> is >> > required for this application. >> >> Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you can get. >> >> -- >> Will >> > > > >-- >Joseph Giliberti >InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum >Get more information at http://www.infoage.org > > OK, this is quickly becoming the weirdest thread I've seen on ClassicCmp... this week. -- Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 3 16:26:36 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?World=92s_top_supercomputer_from_=91?= =?windows-1252?Q?09_is_now_obsolete=2C_will_be_dismantled?= In-Reply-To: <515C7C44.7000600@update.uu.se> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> <20130403092338.X73571@shell.lmi.net> <515C7C44.7000600@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20130403141700.O75226@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Pontus wrote: > I apparently made the false assumption that we both shared the view on > what the Road Runner really is, a collection of CPU's each in its own > motherboard each in its own case. So I carelessly thought that when I > referred to the possibility of replacing the CPU it would be clear that > each CPU would be replaced from it's socket. > I seems that you view Roadrunner as _one_ computer and then it certainly > becomes ridiculous to talk about _the_ CPU in _a_ socket and I > understand why you think I was off the wall. Yeah, that's most of the confusion. I honestly don't know anything about Roadrunner, nor anything about the machine being dismantled after 4 years. Since "top supercomputer" is CERTAINLY going to be upgraded (or replaced) it seemed that upgradeability and/or expansion would be an extremely high priority in the design. > I'm sorry for the confusion and I hope you are not just being sarcastic > with me, that translates badly in text. No, no sarcasm at all. I know that I don't know anything about high end machines, but I was shocked that the design life was only 4 years. > Going back to topic. It certainly is possible to design a super computer > that is modular. The SGI Origin2k is a wonderful example of that, though > it only scales to a certain limit (128 CPUs I think). Heck, even the > Roadrunner is quite modular, you could probably cut it up into a hundred > different pieces and each piece would be quite a competent cluster of > computer for a researcher willing to pay the power bill. I like the idea of that, but honestly have no idea of the practicality. Could multiple 128s be "clustered"? ANY finite limit will eventually get in the way. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Apr 3 16:29:16 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 21:29:16 +0000 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 4/2/13 8:30 AM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: >On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Sam O'nella wrote: >> Has it had a kernel update ever? Uptime can often mean vulnerable >> services too. > >It is possible to design a system that does not require rebooting when >replacing a component that is not currently in use. >If the interface of the component is adequately stabilized and documented, >that "not in use" could even be an interrupt. > >Memory space garbage collection, when properly done, does NOT require >rebooting. > >But systems that screw up on releasing allocated resources when they >are no longer needed, NEED a complete restart periodically. > > As I understand it, a certain large software company of my acquaintance uses the mandatory reboot as a convenience, rather than determining whether affected components are in fact in use. Easier for the programmer - sorry, user! You don't matter. From fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk Wed Apr 3 16:38:40 2013 From: fuuzetsu at fuuzetsu.co.uk (Mateusz Kowalczyk) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 22:38:40 +0100 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <515CA160.7090004@fuuzetsu.co.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 03/04/13 22:20, Ian King wrote: > On 4/2/13 11:44 PM, "Joe Giliberti" wrote: > >> Finger down your throat seems to work well for the fashion >> industry >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:08 AM, William Donzelli >> wrote: >> >>>> I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant >>>> reaction >>> that is >>>> required for this application. >>> >>> Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you >>> can get. >>> >>> -- Will >>> >> >> >> >> -- Joseph Giliberti InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and >> Museum Get more information at http://www.infoage.org >> >> > > OK, this is quickly becoming the weirdest thread I've seen on > ClassicCmp... this week. -- Ian > > ?and it's only Wednesday. - -- Mateusz K. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJRXKFfAAoJEM1mucMq2pqXyZ4QAIaNTkXeanKnUC+ix5cz0icY fKW6yQYQXkI4rNYYAiFXwOXsTTFbHo4BUREA+19LXg9bzypX6riCzRocXL838r4H yEyylZMMeVu+KEHYACKx3EbO+sx7QNCrdMMVHVPa1VbNL2ONXnsV5AWvp03XX1Ek Ujdqz1hBAVjZSzfV1dOb7wI4vxPdpJHDpDam5FH/aChmMYDm3cLHZdkuchOhzB0p F/nvFYmCnhvrdlXNIeEhw32BjmCtZwhggpX5mieyNmKDj5/4Ibu/JrolYYdnEc5u BO6bKjXl9MshXZxC7mtnymrzDBlAXHv7k8jv0DHxPsLcyp8kj0V6zMTi6jMBCy7Q p1E5mmF+ZxCx4RpDsyGG6+Xxi+jo9uDL2t+55KC4j7wZ3z6OOaPuqzZ5cacJvk7C AMhMZz+CoJn9DG3Ovvi+qhrW++TW5JU2vsFaPuuUf7vz0Wtj6VdE4vqDMJ8UkiH1 xgT+m+moKlTJPbnkDqbht5hEj7pgNXR14BfzevDfDOBumWNNewd7g9TolewhYSnl KHnUZTzWZWKd7WIgkRmRddqSMg2kO+X9x69d3Pg1cwfrL5DD/BGKhODLxqrXwaZz lLLzs85QlrUSmAJCL4ZC99N/xhPZt8Tt5NNMk4l2IhSEFG5zfFLPI8efzvIiO/rn bQ75UjW6NYljGvslOfS6 =CpIn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From starbase89 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 16:46:44 2013 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:46:44 -0400 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> <515BA694.2060808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: You need to be careful with ipecac, though. Too much can cause cardiac damage. On 4/3/13, William Donzelli wrote: >> I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant reaction that >> is >> required for this application. > > Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you can get. > > -- > Will > -- Joseph Giliberti InfoAge Science / History Learning Center and Museum Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 16:47:48 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:47:48 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Ian King wrote: > As I understand it, a certain large software company of my acquaintance > uses the mandatory reboot as a convenience, rather than determining > whether affected components are in fact in use. Easier for the programmer > - sorry, user! You don't matter. And if you ever lived through a fresh install of Windows 2000 on blank hardware, you can probably relate to this "joke" we came up with during the endless cycles of hardware detect/reboot along the way... "Windows has detected mouse movement. Windows will reboot to commit this change" -ethan From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 3 17:02:04 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 18:02:04 -0400 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> On 04/03/2013 05:20 PM, Ian King wrote: > On 4/2/13 11:44 PM, "Joe Giliberti" wrote: > >> Finger down your throat seems to work well for the fashion industry >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:08 AM, William Donzelli >> wrote: >> >>>> I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant reaction >>> that >>> is >>>> required for this application. >>> >>> Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you can get. >>> >> > > OK, this is quickly becoming the weirdest thread I've seen on > ClassicCmp... this week. -- Ian > Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs being worth the price we are charged for them... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 3 17:56:01 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <5159928C.9050508@sbcglobal.net> <20130402073350.C54616@shell.lmi.net> <515AEE5D.7090102@neurotica.com> <1496173328-1364915080-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-431576546-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <515AF509.2050704@neurotica.com> <1364917559.15124.YahooMailNeo@web87806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <515B0AA6.7040408@neurotica.com> <515B8D07.2000100@telegraphics.com.au> <515B8FF4.7040907@neurotica.com> <515BA694.2060808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Joe Giliberti wrote: > You need to be careful with ipecac, though. Too much can cause cardiac damage. > I think that's removed once you hit VP of Marketing or higher anyway. Either way, Nothing of Value Was Lost. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 3 17:56:56 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 04/03/2013 05:20 PM, Ian King wrote: >> On 4/2/13 11:44 PM, "Joe Giliberti" wrote: >> >>> Finger down your throat seems to work well for the fashion industry >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:08 AM, William Donzelli >>> wrote: >>> >>>>> I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant reaction >>>> that >>>> is >>>>> required for this application. >>>> >>>> Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you can get. >>>> >>> >> >> OK, this is quickly becoming the weirdest thread I've seen on >> ClassicCmp... this week. -- Ian >> > > Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs > being worth the price we are charged for them... Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Good one! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 18:01:34 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 23:01:34 +0000 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 03/04/2013 22:47:48 Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... >On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Ian King wrote: >> As I understand it, a certain large software company of my >>acquaintance >> uses the mandatory reboot as a convenience, rather than determining >> whether affected components are in fact in use. Easier for the >>programmer >> - sorry, user! You don't matter. > >And if you ever lived through a fresh install of Windows 2000 on blank >hardware, you can probably relate to this "joke" we came up with during >the endless cycles of hardware detect/reboot along the way... > >"Windows has detected mouse movement. Windows will reboot to commit >this change" > >-ethan Whilst some re-boots are still needed Microsoft put a lot of work into reducing the number needed to install Windows. At 2008R2 it will sometimes install with a single re-boot. Windows/2000 is ver 10 years old now, is it "Vintage" yet???? > >Dave >G4UGM > From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 18:30:01 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:30:01 -0700 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515A36B5.7681.339201D@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <515A36B5.7681.339201D@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <515CBB79.9060708@gmail.com> Anyone know what these are from http://www.ebay.com/itm/150407824254 ? It looks like a Motorola 88000 based cpu board. I was able to find some mentions of a few 88000 floating point boards for use in MicroVAX II but, can't find anything about Avalon A7Q. If these were replacement cpu what did they run ? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 3 19:35:53 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Ian King wrote: >> As I understand it, a certain large software company of my acquaintance >> uses the mandatory reboot as a convenience, rather than determining >> whether affected components are in fact in use. Easier for the programmer >> - sorry, user! You don't matter. > > And if you ever lived through a fresh install of Windows 2000 on blank > hardware, you can probably relate to this "joke" we came up with during > the endless cycles of hardware detect/reboot along the way... > > "Windows has detected mouse movement. Windows will reboot to commit > this change" My favourite tidbit of this sort of thing is this: "Windows has detected that a gnat has farted near your computer. Press any key to reboot." -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 3 20:15:38 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> > > "Windows has detected mouse movement. Windows will reboot to commit > > this change" > "Windows has detected that a gnat has farted near your computer. > Press any key to reboot." Those don't surpass the real one: "No keyboard. Press any key to continue." From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 3 20:18:33 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130403181742.H85291@shell.lmi.net> > >>> Finger down your throat seems to work well for the fashion industry doesn't ANYTHING having to do with the fashion industry accomplish the same thing? From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 3 20:25:35 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:25:35 -0400 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> geneb wrote: >On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> On 04/03/2013 05:20 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> On 4/2/13 11:44 PM, "Joe Giliberti" wrote: >>> >>>> Finger down your throat seems to work well for the fashion industry >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 1:08 AM, William Donzelli >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> I can think of several, but none have the sort of instant >reaction >>>>> that >>>>> is >>>>>> required for this application. >>>>> >>>>> Ipecac is very fast, in many people as close to instant as you can >get. >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> OK, this is quickly becoming the weirdest thread I've seen on >>> ClassicCmp... this week. -- Ian >>> >> >> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >> being worth the price we are charged for them... > > >Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! > >Good one! > >g. I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? ;) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Wed Apr 3 22:51:34 2013 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:51:34 -0800 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515CBB79.9060708@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: If it's anything like the one I have, it's a co-processor board used for number-crunching. My recollections point towards imaging applications, but I fergit where I heard that. I used to have the name and number of someone who knew where the drivers and stuff were located; but I'm afraid that these have been lost to us now. Bummer. The folks auctioning these off say they test them. I'd like to know how they do this. > -----Original Message----- > From: mc68010 at gmail.com > Sent: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 16:30:01 -0700 > To: > Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? > > Anyone know what these are from http://www.ebay.com/itm/150407824254 ? > > It looks like a Motorola 88000 based cpu board. I was able to find some > mentions of a few 88000 floating point boards for use in MicroVAX II > but, can't find anything about Avalon A7Q. If these were replacement cpu > what did they run ? ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Apr 4 00:56:45 2013 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 00:56:45 -0500 Subject: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 09:41:14 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fred Cisin ... >> On Tue, Apr 02, 2013 at 02:31:39PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > I'm having a little difficulty visualizing "The World's Top >> > Supercomputer" >> > as being a single chip CPU on a motherboard. >> > When did "supercomputers" become single board devices? >> > "Put the CPU on a daughterboard"? > > On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Do you really think I'm that stupid? > > Of course not. I acknowledge and respect your expertise. > And, I certainly had no intention of offending you. ----- Reply:----- Yeah, come on, Fred; just because he doesn't seem to understand the concept of a *plural* morpheme and why using the singular to refer to hundreds of an item might cause confusion (especially in this context) doesn't mean he's stupid ;-) I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin of a single CPU compatible with something... Fun with words, and of course as usual surprising and a little disappointing to see how ready and eager some people are instead to see insults or personal attacks in simple misunderstandings... From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 00:21:08 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 22:21:08 -0700 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> On 4/3/2013 8:51 PM, N0body H0me wrote: > If it's anything like the one I have, it's a co-processor board > used for number-crunching. My recollections point towards imaging > applications, but I fergit where I heard that. Those are the only boards I could find either but, Avalon came up nothing. 4mb ram seems seems like a lot of ram for a qbus fpu board. Image processing might make more sense. It does say CPU right on it the label though. > The folks auctioning these off say they test them. I'd like to > know how they do this. > > I've bought stuff from the people selling this before. They are out of Texas and seem to have everything ever for PDP-11 but, in very limited quantities. I got the feeling they were an ancient DEC VAR. Maybe they did test 20 years ago before it got stuck in a bag and filed away. Seems like they may be winding down now and just trying to move stuff. They seem to take most best offers I've thrown at them. It is fairly random though. They turn down offers they should take and take ones they shouldn't. I also got the feeling there may not be a lot of people working there that actually know a lot about what they are selling anymore. Calling them is a lot like calling an auto-parts store staffed by florists. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 4 00:25:28 2013 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 07:25:28 +0200 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?World=E2=80=99s_top_supercom?= =?utf-8?Q?puter_from_=E2=80=9809?= is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <20130403141700.O75226@shell.lmi.net> References: <5158AF3D.4050704@xs4all.nl> <20130331172350.A15882@shell.lmi.net> <515B42FF.1010208@update.uu.se> <20130402142026.V58048@shell.lmi.net> <20130403061505.GA3453@Update.UU.SE> <20130403092338.X73571@shell.lmi.net> <515C7C44.7000600@update.uu.se> <20130403141700.O75226@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130404052528.GA2652@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Apr 03, 2013 at 02:26:36PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > Yeah, that's most of the confusion. I honestly don't know anything about > Roadrunner, nor anything about the machine being dismantled after 4 years. Then that is settled, nomhard feelings i hope. > Since "top supercomputer" is CERTAINLY going to be upgraded (or replaced) > it seemed that upgradeability and/or expansion would be an extremely high > priority in the design. To some degree at least. The Titan (I think it was) got an upgrade by replacing all of it's CPUs. > I like the idea of that, but honestly have no idea of the practicality. > Could multiple 128s be "clustered"? Now I had to go and read up. It turns out the O2k could be run in 256 and 512 CPU configurations as well but it was not marketed and supported. And certainly such configurations could then be clustered. In fact it has been done with 48 128 CPU O2k computers interconnected with HIPPI using MPI. Read more here, the linked PDF in the article has a nice picture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCI_Blue_Mountain regards, Pontus From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 4 00:27:42 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 01:27:42 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> On 04/04/2013 01:21 AM, mc68010 wrote: > I've bought stuff from the people selling this before. They are out of Texas > and seem to have everything ever for PDP-11 but, in very limited quantities. > I got the feeling they were an ancient DEC VAR. Maybe they did test 20 years > ago before it got stuck in a bag and filed away. Seems like they may be > winding down now and just trying to move stuff. They seem to take most best > offers I've thrown at them. It is fairly random though. They turn down > offers they should take and take ones they shouldn't. I also got the feeling > there may not be a lot of people working there that actually know a lot about > what they are selling anymore. Calling them is a lot like calling an > auto-parts store staffed by florists. That's JT Computer. They've been around for a very long time. I wouldn't say they're "winding down", but they are very reasonable with offers. They recognize hobbyists and preservationists, and they try to help out when they can. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 4 00:28:47 2013 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 07:28:47 +0200 Subject: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Apr 04, 2013 at 12:56:45AM -0500, MikeS wrote: > Yeah, come on, Fred; just because he doesn't seem to understand the > concept of a *plural* morpheme and why using the singular to refer > to hundreds of an item might cause confusion (especially in this > context) doesn't mean he's stupid ;-) A little stupid.. I know about the rules for appending an S in the right place, I just can't seem to master them. > I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then > I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks > about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple > pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin > of a single CPU compatible with something... :) > Fun with words, and of course as usual surprising and a little > disappointing to see how ready and eager some people are instead to > see insults or personal attacks in simple misunderstandings... I should really know better than to write replies when I am tired and grumpy, sorry Fred. Cheers, Pontus From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 4 00:44:09 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 22:44:09 -0700 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:21 PM -0700 4/3/13, mc68010 wrote: >Calling them is a lot like calling an auto-parts store staffed by florists. This just might be one of the best comments I've ever read on CLASSICCMP! :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 00:49:03 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 22:49:03 -0700 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> On 4/3/2013 10:27 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > That's JT Computer. They've been around for a very long time. I > wouldn't say they're "winding down", but they are very reasonable with > offers. They recognize hobbyists and preservationists, and they try to > help out when they can. -Dave What's their story ? Were they big players in the DEC arena ? How do they have so much stuff left after all these years ? I understand the guys out there that charge insane money for stuff having things left on the shelf waiting for that call from corporate purchasing but, these guys are really reasonable. Some stuff way cheaper than ebay. Some things not so much. Their shipping isn't always fair or make sense. They charged me $13 to ship a 3oz kdj11 console panel. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Apr 4 01:54:08 2013 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 01:54:08 -0500 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130404065408.GA6732@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Apr 03, 2013 at 06:15:38PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > Those don't surpass the real one: > "No keyboard. Press any key to continue." This reminds me of one of the most amusing looks I ever received from a PC tech. I was working as a data entry clerk in freight bill entry somewhere near the end of the last century. My PC was running a version of Windoze that would boot without a mouse. I think it was Windoze 95. Anyway, PC techs from the home office were at the terminal I worked at doing something to all the PCs. When a tech got to mine he looked around and said, "Um ... where's your mouse?" When I pointed to the bottom drawer of my desk I think he almost went into shock. He was lost without a mouse. To keep this slightly on topic at that time freight bill entry clerks entered bills into Synergy, a text DOS based program. Each Synergy server "entered" freight bills into TFMS, a CICS based freight bill rating package, via three Attachmate sessions. We had four Synergy servers back then. As for the mainframe Synergy was "entering" bills into we were running MVS on an IBM 3090. At least I think it was a 3090, I'm not positive. I eventually made my way from data entry into mainframe operations, and I'm still working as an operator. Just before I moved into operations we upgraded to OS/390, and to a large refrigerator sized mainframe with a yellow "speed bump." I can't remember the model number. We're now running z/OS on a 2086 with a copper "speed bump." I wish I had made it into operations back when the mainframe and its peripherals filled the computer room. Sadly we eventually downgraded from the DOS based Synergy to a Windoze version. I heard it slowed down freight bill entry clerks quite a bit. If that wasn't bad enough we've now outsourced our freight bill entry to a company in The Philippines. Aaaaarrrrrggggg!! -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://Lassie.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 15:17:19 2013 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 16:17:19 -0400 Subject: DEC M7522 (RUX50) Unibus Quad-slot RX50 Controller Message-ID: I've been trying to track down online documentation (manual, engineering drawings) for this Quad Unibus card, a controller for the RX50. No luck at all. Nada :-<. Just some references in RSX/RSTS/Ultrix marketing documents. Does anyone have, or know where such documentation can be found? Also, does anyone have (or knows someone who has) a spare/loose M7522 that they'd be willing to part with? Thanks! ----- From roe at liveblockauctions.com Wed Apr 3 18:21:14 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 17:21:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Qbus identification Message-ID: I'm looking at upgrading a pdp11/73 in a pdp11/23plus box to an 11/83. Is there a simple multimeter test I can do on a qbus slot to determine if it is Q/Q -- which i understand can be serpentine, or Q/CD, which are PMI capable for the 11/83 CPU. Thanks. From pyrrhonean at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 01:56:13 2013 From: pyrrhonean at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 17:56:13 +1100 Subject: SMD cables: anyone with surplus A and B? Message-ID: I have acquired several SMD disk drives (Emulex SD590 - 859MB), and have tracked down an Emulex QD controller but so far no cables. I understand the cables are relatively simple but it would be useful to have an example cable before I try to make my own, or I could save some time if someone has a box of surplus SMD cables they no longer need. thanks. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 02:47:17 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 08:47:17 +0100 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130404065408.GA6732@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> <20130404065408.GA6732@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <515D3005.8000407@gmail.com> On 04/04/2013 07:54, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > On Wed, Apr 03, 2013 at 06:15:38PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Those don't surpass the real one: >> "No keyboard. Press any key to continue." > This reminds me of one of the most amusing looks I ever received from a PC > tech. I was working as a data entry clerk in freight bill entry somewhere > near the end of the last century. My PC was running a version of Windoze > that would boot without a mouse. I think it was Windoze 95. Anyway, PC > techs from the home office were at the terminal I worked at doing something > to all the PCs. When a tech got to mine he looked around and said, "Um ... > where's your mouse?" When I pointed to the bottom drawer of my desk I think > he almost went into shock. He was lost without a mouse. > > To keep this slightly on topic at that time freight bill entry clerks > entered bills into Synergy, a text DOS based program. Each Synergy server > "entered" freight bills into TFMS, a CICS based freight bill rating package, > via three Attachmate sessions. We had four Synergy servers back then. As > for the mainframe Synergy was "entering" bills into we were running MVS on > an IBM 3090. At least I think it was a 3090, I'm not positive. I > eventually made my way from data entry into mainframe operations, and I'm > still working as an operator. Just before I moved into operations we > upgraded to OS/390, and to a large refrigerator sized mainframe with a > yellow "speed bump." I can't remember the model number. We're now running > z/OS on a 2086 with a copper "speed bump." I wish I had made it into > operations back when the mainframe and its peripherals filled the computer > room. > > Sadly we eventually downgraded from the DOS based Synergy to a Windoze > version. I heard it slowed down freight bill entry clerks quite a bit. If > that wasn't bad enough we've now outsourced our freight bill entry to a > company in The Philippines. Aaaaarrrrrggggg!! > > > I remember being shown an app some one had written to run on Windows that they wanted to make like DOS. They wanted to stop everything happening while they waited for a response from the mainframe. Well its rather hard to do in a message switch like Windows where each program has a message queue. They had removed the mouse and made the app full screen and said they didn't think any one could now re-size it to do anything else. Sadly for them the keyboard was the a new style Compaq with the short space bar and the "alt" key next to it, I gently brushed the space bar, making sure I grazed the alt key first to reveal the system menu, with the move and re-size options. Oh were they upset! -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 4 03:28:50 2013 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (R SMALLWOOD) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 09:28:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1365064130.72446.YahooMailNeo@web87801.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> That's a POST error message - nothing to do with Windows. ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thursday, 4 April 2013, 2:15 Subject: Re: Amazing uptime... > > "Windows has detected mouse movement.? Windows will reboot to commit > > this change" > "Windows has detected that a gnat has farted near your computer. > Press any key to reboot." Those don't surpass the real one: "No keyboard.? Press any key to continue." From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 07:51:55 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:51:55 -0400 Subject: Qbus identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7635DB63-5D5D-4BA4-B5D5-F7DA22A4E165@gmail.com> On Apr 3, 2013, at 19:21, Roe Peterson wrote: > > I'm looking at upgrading a pdp11/73 in a pdp11/23plus box to an 11/83. Is there a simple multimeter test I can do on a qbus slot to determine if it is Q/Q -- which i understand can be serpentine, or Q/CD, which are PMI capable for the 11/83 CPU. Easier: find the model number of your backplane here: http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis If you have a BA23 or BA11-S chassis, you ought to be set. - Dave From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Apr 4 07:55:17 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 07:55:17 -0500 Subject: Qbus identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515D7835.2030707@compsys.to> >Roe Peterson wrote: >I'm looking at upgrading a pdp11/73 in a pdp11/23plus box to an 11/83. Is there a simple multimeter test I can do on a qbus slot to determine if it is Q/Q -- which i understand can be serpentine, or Q/CD, which are PMI capable for the 11/83 CPU. > I hope that Allison is available to determine if I am suggesting a possibility that might damage a board of the backplane. I doubt that is a possibility, but just in case, can anyone else please comment as well. A BA23 box is wired with the top 3 slots as Q/CD and the lower 5 slots as Q22 / Q22. If a backplane slot is wired as Q / CD, then that slot can hold ONLY a single board, either dual OR quad, on the left side of the slot. If a backplane slot is wired as Q/Q, then either one quad board or two dual boards are used. The order of the boards in a BA23 is: !A 1 2A 2 3A 3 4A / 4B 4 / 5 5A / 5B 7 / 6 6A / 6B 8 / 9 etc. Depending on if your PDP-11/73 uses any or none of the "B" portion of the backplane when a dual board is present, you already know if any of the backplane is Q/Q. Since you have not provided a list of the boards and the location of each board, I can not comment further. However, you can always place a dual board in an "A" slot and leave "B" portion empty. If that slot is Q/Q, then the bus grant will be broken and any boards beyond that location in the chain will not interrupt. If I have not explained the situation carefully enough, please ask more questions. Do you already have the M8190-AE and the PMI memory boards? If you do, then you may want to compare the speed difference. When I performed a similar benchmark under RT-11, I found that the PDP-11/83 was about 33% faster than the PDP-11/73. About 20% was due to using the PMI memory (which usually works with the PDP-11/73 boards as well) and about 13% was due to the faster crystal on the M8190-AE board. If you have any more questions, please ask. Jerome Fine From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 07:57:48 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:57:48 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> On Apr 4, 2013, at 1:49, mc68010 wrote: > On 4/3/2013 10:27 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> That's JT Computer. They've been around for a very long time. I wouldn't say they're "winding down", but they are very reasonable with offers. They recognize hobbyists and preservationists, and they try to help out when they can. -Dave > > What's their story ? Were they big players in the DEC arena ? How do they have so much stuff left after all these years ? I understand the guys out there that charge insane money for stuff having things left on the shelf waiting for that call from corporate purchasing but, these guys are really reasonable. Some stuff way cheaper than ebay. Some things not so much. Their shipping isn't always fair or make sense. They charged me $13 to ship a 3oz kdj11 console panel. Bear in mind that that's probably what UPS charged. If it's calculated on eBay's page, that's a calculation straight from the shipping company. I've had great experiences with them on eBay. I made a very discounted offer on an MSV11-QC (burst-capable, 4MB QBUS RAM, very nice item) for less than half the asking price and mentioned that I was a hobbyist without deep pockets; the offer was accepted. I find that their prices seem pretty reasonable to me; they'll charge a premium for genuinely rare items like an 11/93 CPU, but that's their prerogative. Meanwhile, they're charging $120 for an 11/83 CPU, which is something I really should get on. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 4 08:03:57 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 06:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >>> being worth the price we are charged for them... >> >> >> Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! >> >> Good one! >> >> g. > > I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? > ;) Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you paid for it new. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 4 08:31:17 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:31:17 -0500 Subject: DEC M7522 (RUX50) Unibus Quad-slot RX50 Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00be01ce3138$afc9f160$0f5dd420$@com> Where are you located? I have located 2 in Germany, and several in the US. I can provide the name and number or email of the dealers that have them. Sorry, they do not have prices listed. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Birkel Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 3:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: DEC M7522 (RUX50) Unibus Quad-slot RX50 Controller I've been trying to track down online documentation (manual, engineering drawings) for this Quad Unibus card, a controller for the RX50. No luck at all. Nada :-<. Just some references in RSX/RSTS/Ultrix marketing documents. Does anyone have, or know where such documentation can be found? Also, does anyone have (or knows someone who has) a spare/loose M7522 that they'd be willing to part with? Thanks! ----- ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3162/6223 - Release Date: 04/03/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3162/6223 - Release Date: 04/03/13 From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Apr 4 08:45:47 2013 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (stefan skoglund(agj)) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:45:47 +0200 Subject: twenex.org login HELP Message-ID: <1365083147.12404.2.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Silly me but: i have done multiple tries to login to twenex.org I have done MKACCT at the homepage and the answer email with my user id and password has arrived but: i'm unsuccessful at login time so HELP ! (user id ssd name Stefan Skoglund password ....) From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 4 09:08:51 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 10:08:51 -0400 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> Message-ID: <515D8973.50401@sbcglobal.net> On 04/04/2013 09:03 AM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >>>> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >>>> being worth the price we are charged for them... >>> >>> >>> Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> >>> Good one! >>> >>> g. >> >> I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? >> ;) > > Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you > paid for it new. :) > > g. > :) I'm currently trying to clean out my email boxes of the old crap.... A little history: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:37:02 -0400 (EDT) From: der Mouse Reply-To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> So now what is the difference between an Intel Mac and PC? > the mac is still horribly over priced. Even if the Mac's sticker price is more than the peecee's (and I saw one comment in this thread which implies it isn't, though I am familiar with neither's price point myself), this does not necessarily make the Mac overpriced. I've never seen an Intel-CPU Mac. But I've seen recent PowerPC Macs, and if they stick to the same level of quality, the Intel Mac is worth signifcantly more money than a commodity peecee with similar paper specs. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 4 09:12:18 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 09:12:18 -0500 Subject: oldies from the warehouse piles.... Message-ID: <00f901ce313e$6a683270$3f389750$@com> I just dug a few oldies from the stacks, will test if anyone is interested in them: Digital Starion 942 Amiga 2500 Amiga 4000/040 Packard Bell Legend 245 Compaq Presario 9642 (tower) Compaq Presario 7212 (desktop) Compaq Presario 7180 (desktop) The last three were part of a distributed computing experiment we did several years ago, so I know they will work. _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3162/6223 - Release Date: 04/03/13 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 09:40:07 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 10:40:07 -0400 Subject: DEC M7522 (RUX50) Unibus Quad-slot RX50 Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Paul Birkel wrote: > I've been trying to track down online documentation (manual, engineering > drawings) for this Quad Unibus card, a controller for the RX50. No luck at > all. Nada :-<. Just some references in RSX/RSTS/Ultrix marketing > documents. > > Does anyone have, or know where such documentation can be found? I may have documentation. I am shifting a lot of items this month. If I run across it, I will pull it. > Also, does anyone have (or knows someone who has) a spare/loose M7522 that > they'd be willing to part with? I just have the one (we got it at my former job for making software distrubution floppies on our 11/750 for our MicroVAX customers, back when such things were new). No spares. Sorry. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 4 09:40:24 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 07:40:24 -0700 Subject: twenex.org login HELP In-Reply-To: <1365083147.12404.2.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1365083147.12404.2.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: You might try asking on the alt.sys.pdp10 USENET group. Zane At 3:45 PM +0200 4/4/13, stefan skoglund(agj) wrote: >Silly me but: > >i have done multiple tries to login to twenex.org > >I have done MKACCT at the homepage and the answer email with my user id >and password has arrived but: >i'm unsuccessful at login time so HELP ! > >(user id ssd name Stefan Skoglund password ....) -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Thu Apr 4 10:01:31 2013 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 10:01:31 -0500 Subject: Toshiba T1910 manuals Message-ID: <5637A323-E1B6-432A-A003-B4606BDA0C08@centurytel.net> Does anyone have a need for the manuals for a Toshiba T1910 Satellite Notebook Computer 486-33? "Getting Started", "Reference Manual", "Reconfiguration Guide", "Companion Guide", and an "Intel387SX Math Coprocessor User's Cuide and Utilities Software". Will sell really cheap (basically just cover postage cost) or they're going in the trash. thanks Charles From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Apr 4 10:13:47 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 15:13:47 +0000 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B74357B78@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > Anyone know what these are from http://www.ebay.com/itm/150407824254 ? > > It looks like a Motorola 88000 based cpu board. I was able to find > some mentions of a few 88000 floating point boards for use in MicroVAX > II but, can't find anything about Avalon A7Q. If these were > replacement cpu what did they run ? Avalon sold math and especially FFT/image/convolution/deconvultuionco-processors in the late 80's and 90's. Used in (among other things I'm sure) medical imaging back-projectors. "Back-projector" seems to mean something different today in google searches... back in the 80's and 90's we called the processing system that takes raw data from CAT scanners and turns it into a image, "convolvers" and "back projectors". For a while in the early 90's, the same generation Avalon co-processor was available in Unibus, Q-bus, and Turbochannel all at the same time. I remember I could get a Alpha processor on a Unibus card at one point! For a while (again mid-90's?), I think one company that sold Avalon boards used the name "teraflop.com". e.g. http://web.archive.org/web/19970116193017/http://teraflop.com/acs/acs.html Avalon corporate history also at archive.org: http://web.archive.org/web/19970116193719/http://teraflop.com/acs/html/history.html This (from the mid-90's) discusses some of the history of Avalon from a typical number-cruncher's perspective: http://www.taborcommunications.com/archives/1530.html Tim. From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 4 10:43:52 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 11/780 Message-ID: <1365090232.96105.YahooMailNeo@web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I just recently acquired a very nearly complete VAX 11/780. I will be spending the next few months in a partial tear down and cleaning and with luck, hopefully little money to get it operational again. I am looking for whatever spare parts I can find for the VAX and its TU78 tape drive. I have plenty of spare drives and such. One thing I am in need of is a console boot floppy and whatever diags I can find on floppy for it. Also, I do have a hobbyist license but I would like to get an early version of VMS to run on it if I can find a tape. I would be glad to pay shipping and/or trade for items. Thanks, Brian. From radioengr at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 11:26:44 2013 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 09:26:44 -0700 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B74357B78@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B74357B78@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <515DA9C4.5000801@gmail.com> On 4/4/2013 8:13 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> Anyone know what these are from http://www.ebay.com/itm/150407824254 ? Somewhat related - I was cleaning up the other day and found (very good condition) - Motorola MC88100 RISC Microprocessor User's Manual Motorola MC88200 CACHE/MMU User's Manual I didn't see either of these on bitsaver.org Free to a good home. Otherwise they're off to the trash bin. Rob. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 11:48:59 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:48:59 -0400 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130404065408.GA6732@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> <20130404065408.GA6732@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: > Just before I moved into operations we > upgraded to OS/390, and to a large refrigerator sized mainframe with a > yellow "speed bump." I can't remember the model number. Very likely a Multiprise 2000 (machine type is 2003). -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 4 12:04:01 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 11:04:01 -0600 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Earlier I wrote: > OK, I've got an HP X-Y display with the older power cord connector, > where the three pins are round instead of two being blades and the > only the ground pin being round. The entire plug socket is also > rounded instead of angled. Found a guy who has them for considerably cheaper than ebay and he still has stock for anyone else who needs some: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 4 12:07:00 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 10:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > A little stupid.. I know about the rules for appending an S in the right place, I just > can't seem to master them. > > I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then > > I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks > > about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple > > pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin > > of a single CPU compatible with something... English has inconsistent rules, and freely breaks them. It seems to have more IRREGULAR conjugations, declensions, and plurals. Can anyone explain why the 'I' is after the 'E' in "WEIRD"? "I disconnected the speaker on all of the computers in the lab." does not imply that they share a speaker. Should I have said that I disconnected the "speakerS"? or maybe "the speaker on EACH computer"? And, in this particular example, "pin compatible" (or "pin-compatible") is a commonly used adjective that is not plural, no matter how many pins the device has. > > Fun with words, and of course as usual surprising and a little > > disappointing to see how ready and eager some people are instead to > > see insults or personal attacks in simple misunderstandings... Isn't that how MOST wars start? We react to perceived insults. > I should really know better than to write replies when I am tired and > grumpy, sorry Fred. 's'OK I often ask about things that I don't have a clue about. and I earned my nickname. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 12:18:27 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 10:18:27 -0700 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> On 4/4/2013 5:57 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 4, 2013, at 1:49, mc68010 wrote: > >> Their shipping isn't always fair or make sense. They charged me $13 to ship a 3oz kdj11 console panel. > Bear in mind that that's probably what UPS charged. If it's > calculated on eBay's page, that's a calculation straight > from the shipping company. Oh their shipping is fine when you buy stuff from them on ebay. Ebay controls that. They have a nice collection of little odd parts like cables and panels you can only find through their outside website and by calling them to order. That's when there shipping hasn't always been kind. Their website http://www.jtcomputer.com/index.asp is what always made me wonder what their backstory was. It is such a generic off the shelf e-commerce site that makes them seem more like a PC servicing business not a big DEC parts shop. It really makes it look like they are a really small firm. Like two people in a office somewhere and a storage locker full of old DEC parts. From sales at elecplus.com Thu Apr 4 12:25:32 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 12:25:32 -0500 Subject: update to Amiga 4000/040, for all those who have asked Message-ID: <025101ce3159$69099890$3b1cc9b0$@com> The Amiga 4000 powers on with no errors. The original battery is on the motherboard, but there is no visible damage. The motherboard is exceptionally clean. There is an EB920 network card (1 BNC) and a modem installed in the ISA slots, as well as 2 sticks of memory. The hard drive is a Seagate ST3144A that does not make excessive noise. I found a Commodore 1084S monitor with the appropriate cable, plugged everything in, and it works! The screen scrolls badly, so that needs to be adjusted, but it is evident that there is a GUI installed. I do not find an Amiga keyboard or a Commodore mouse at this time, but I do have 9-pin serial mice and standard PS2 keyboards. Asking $400 for the computer, monitor, 9-pin mouse and generic kbd, includes UPS ground shipping to commercial address. Add $20 for residential address. Please note the rubber feet on the computer have melted into a gooey mess, so I will remove them. The case top has several scratches/rubs, and the front plate has a minor chip on the bottom. The monitor is in good shape, although not the same shade as the computer. There is no CDROM in the computer, just the floppy and hard drive. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3162/6223 - Release Date: 04/03/13 From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 12:51:16 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 13:51:16 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515DA9C4.5000801@gmail.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B74357B78@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <515DA9C4.5000801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1D27B1D0-10DB-4FCB-8F8F-4B7E8A941B70@gmail.com> On Apr 4, 2013, at 12:26 PM, Rob Doyle wrote: > On 4/4/2013 8:13 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >>> Anyone know what these are from http://www.ebay.com/itm/150407824254 ? > > Somewhat related - > > I was cleaning up the other day and found (very good condition) - > > Motorola MC88100 RISC Microprocessor User's Manual > Motorola MC88200 CACHE/MMU User's Manual > > I didn't see either of these on bitsaver.org > > Free to a good home. Otherwise they're off to the trash bin. I think I have scans of them, but I'd welcome the dead-tree version if they haven't been claimed, assuming postage won't murder me. Do I recall that you're in the UK? To calculate shipping, I'm in Philadelphia, PA 19146 in the US. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 12:54:08 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 13:54:08 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <1D27B1D0-10DB-4FCB-8F8F-4B7E8A941B70@gmail.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B74357B78@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <515DA9C4.5000801@gmail.com> <1D27B1D0-10DB-4FCB-8F8F-4B7E8A941B70@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3AC80D69-50DA-4A79-94BC-35978BF1D92D@gmail.com> [M88k manual shipping stuff] Sorry, didn't mean for that to go to the list. If anyone wants the scans, though, I'll be glad to send them along, including to Bitsavers; if anyone can help me figure out what I need to do to the pile of TIFFs to make it more Bitsavers-friendly, I'd really appreciate the help. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Apr 4 13:51:55 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled] In-Reply-To: <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > English has inconsistent [spelling] rules, and freely breaks them. Indeed. In my more cynical moments I sometimes feel it has more rules than it does words. Consider `laughter'. Now prepend an `s'. Or change the `l' to a `d'. Or take `bough' and append a `t' to it. Or consider all the ways to pronouce `ough': bough, rough, through, though, cough, ought... Having lived for the last 30 years or so in Quebec, I am very aware of the things that make French difficult to learn for an anglophone. But English is no picnic itself; it's just that, having grown up with it, I've internalized the issues to the extent that I no longer notice them absent specific conscious attention (as now). The first time I had occasion to pronounce the card game name "euchre", I picked the wrong paradigm for the initial vowels and pronounced it "oyker" (my template was (Leonhard) Euler's name - why that rather than "eunuch" or "euphoria" or "eucalyptus" or "euphemism", I don't know). > "I disconnected the speaker on all of the computers in the lab." does > not imply that they share a speaker. Strictly speaking, the grammatical construct does imply that; in the case of that particular sentence that implication is overridden by the semantic unlikelihood of having all the lab's computers sharing a single speaker. > Should I have said that I disconnected the "speakerS"? or maybe "the > speaker on EACH computer"? Either one would fix it, yes. > And, in this particular example, "pin compatible" (or > "pin-compatible") is a commonly used adjective that is not plural, no > matter how many pins the device has. Right. The issue there wasn't with the "pin compatible" adjective, possibly excepting its compound nature. The text was "... didn't make the CPU's pin compatible". "CPU's" looks more like a possessive than a plural (the plural would be "CPUs"); if you read it as a possessive then the parse is forced to "...didn't make (the CPU's pin) compatible [with something unspecified]", and there's no way for "the CPU's pin", as a noun phrase, to be anything but singular. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 14:16:59 2013 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 21:16:59 +0200 Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled] In-Reply-To: <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Mouse wrote: > > > English has inconsistent [spelling] rules, and freely breaks them. > > Indeed. In my more cynical moments I sometimes feel it has more rules > than it does words. Consider `laughter'. Now prepend an `s'. Or > change the `l' to a `d'. Or take `bough' and append a `t' to it. Or > consider all the ways to pronouce `ough': bough, rough, through, > though, cough, ought... I'm fond of this poem by Rosemary Chen, I guess what's true for Asians is also true for the Dutch: Enough Is Enough Four letters cause me disillusion OUGH makes phonetic confusion Four simple letters with four pronunciations Make learning English tough for Asians. OUGH has no logic, no rule Or rhyme or rhythm; it will fool All who struggle to master expression English may cause thorough depression. I pour some water in a trough I sneeze and splutter, then I cough. And with a rough hewn bough My muddy paddy fields I plough. Loaves of warm bread in a row Crispy crusts and doughy dough. Now, my final duty to do And then my chores will all be through. My lament is finished, even though Learning this word game is really slow. It is so difficult, it's very rough Learning English is really tough. If a trough was a truff And a plough was a pluff If dough was duff And though was thuff If cough was cuff And through was thruff I would not pretend, or try to bluff, But of OUGH I've had enough Camiel. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 4 15:15:48 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 21:15:48 +0100 Subject: Qbus identification In-Reply-To: <7635DB63-5D5D-4BA4-B5D5-F7DA22A4E165@gmail.com> References: <7635DB63-5D5D-4BA4-B5D5-F7DA22A4E165@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515DDF74.7020209@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/04/2013 13:51, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 3, 2013, at 19:21, Roe Peterson > wrote: >> >> I'm looking at upgrading a pdp11/73 in a pdp11/23plus box to an >> 11/83. Is there a simple multimeter test I can do on a qbus slot >> to determine if it is Q/Q [ ... ] >> or Q/CD, which are PMI capable for the 11/83 CPU. > > Easier: find the model number of your backplane here: > > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis > > If you have a BA23 or BA11-S chassis, you ought to be set. Indeed, or as Jerome suggested, looking at the configuration of the cards may give you a clue. So would the type of box: if it's a 3U-high (5.25") grey-fronted-metal-panel rack-mount box with three toggle switches, it's a BA11-N or BA11-S, which have straight backplanes (and are all QQ-CD), if it's a small tabletop box or a 2U (3.5") it's a BA11-V (tabletop) or BA11-M (2U) which have serpentine backplanes, and if it's a floor-standing microPDP-11 (or microVAX) box or a chassis with four or six pushbuttons on the front, it's a BA23 box which is QQ-CD in the top slots and serpentine below. Or count the card slots. All 9-slot backplanes are straight. 8-slot and 13-slot are mixed (for microPDP-11 and microVAX). Anything else is serpentine. BA11-M and BA11-V boxes are relatively uncommon. If it's a BA11-N, although the backplane is 18-bit, it's very easy to upgrade to 22-bit. >> -- which I understand can be serpentine, All Q-Q backplanes are serpentine, and all straight backplanes are QQ-CD. The only odd one is the hex-high DDV11-B, which is a serpentine backplane in the ABCD positions and not bussed at all (except for power in the standard contact positions) in EF - it's meant for custom wiring. Of course we're assuming it's a DEC box with a DEC backplane. A Plessey backplane, for example, might be different, but you'd probably know if it was non-DEC, because it's pretty rare to find DEC's dark green connectors on anything non-DEC. Plessey and GEC ones, again for example, are white. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 4 14:28:37 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 20:28:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 3, 13 06:15:38 pm Message-ID: > Those don't surpass the real one: > "No keyboard. Press any key to continue." IIRC the original message was somethign like 'Keyboard Failure Press F1 to continue' and it makes rrther more sense. It means the keybaord failed the POST, a key stuck down wil lcasue that. And in that case, it alerts the user to get the keybaord fixed (or it alerts the hacker to take the keybaord to bits), but pressing F1 (assuming that's not rhe faulty eky) wil ltehn causew the system to boot and you can use it apart from the stuck key. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 15:27:09 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:27:09 -0500 Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515DE21D.7040005@gmail.com> On 04/03/2013 08:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> "Windows has detected mouse movement. Windows will reboot to commit >>> this change" >> "Windows has detected that a gnat has farted near your computer. >> Press any key to reboot." > > Those don't surpass the real one: > "No keyboard. Press any key to continue." :-) "Cannot delete : There is not enough free disk space. Delete one or more files to free disk space, and then try again" has always made me chuckle. I think that was Win95 (possibly NT4). From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 4 15:20:50 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 21:20:50 +0100 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515DE0A2.600@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/04/2013 18:04, Richard wrote: > Earlier I wrote: >> OK, I've got an HP X-Y display with the older power cord connector, >> where the three pins are round instead of two being blades and the >> only the ground pin being round. The entire plug socket is also >> rounded instead of angled. Be aware there are two versions of those, one with "hot left of ground" and one with "hot right of ground". I found that out when I was looking for one for my Cromemco. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wilson at dbit.com Thu Apr 4 15:36:23 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 16:36:23 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130404203623.GA16367@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Apr 04, 2013 at 10:18:27AM -0700, mc68010 wrote: >Their website http://www.jtcomputer.com/index.asp is what always made >me wonder what their backstory was. It is such a generic off the >shelf e-commerce site that makes them seem more like a PC servicing >business not a big DEC parts shop. It really makes it look like they >are a really small firm. Like two people in a office somewhere and a >storage locker full of old DEC parts. J.T. goes way back and they're definitely the real thing, no matter what size they are nowadays. I've gotten a few odds and ends from them but the winner was a working RM80. IIRC shipping from TX to NY was $200 which seemed *very* reasonable, but this was ~21 years ago. Still have it (with ITS installed). John Wilson D Bit From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 15:40:54 2013 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 22:40:54 +0200 Subject: VAX4000-100A with P-cache problems Message-ID: Hello. I have a VAX4000-100A system, that's fully working, except for a strange error on boot that notify about errors in the P-cache. VMS starts up, but again it notify that P-cache will be disabled due to high error-rate. Probably the CPU has been damaged somehow, or it's malfunctioning (if I'm not wrong the P-cache is integrated inside the CPU). Anybody ever had a similar problem? Could it be possible to find a replacement CPU somewhere, not at terrible cost? Thanks Andrea From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 4 15:40:55 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 21:40:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now In-Reply-To: <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Apr 4, 13 02:51:55 pm Message-ID: > > > English has inconsistent [spelling] rules, and freely breaks them. > > Indeed. In my more cynical moments I sometimes feel it has more rules > than it does words. Consider `laughter'. Now prepend an `s'. Or That reminds me of a sentence that I think is quoted in one of Martin Gardner's books : 'Show the bold Prussian that praised slaughet, slaugher brings rout. Teach this slaughter-lover his fall nears' Yo can delete the intial letter of all the words to form a new sentence. Incidentalyl, for the 'i before e' rule, I always liked : 'E before E except after C. We live in a weird society' :-) > > "I disconnected the speaker on all of the computers in the lab." does > > not imply that they share a speaker. > > Strictly speaking, the grammatical construct does imply that; in the > case of that particular sentence that implication is overridden by the > semantic unlikelihood of having all the lab's computers sharing a > single speaker. > > > Should I have said that I disconnected the "speakerS"? or maybe "the > > speaker on EACH computer"? > > Either one would fix it, yes. But 'I disconencted the speakers of al lthe computers in the lab' could mean multipel speakers for each machine. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 4 15:46:38 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 13:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515DE21D.7040005@gmail.com> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> <515DE21D.7040005@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 04/03/2013 08:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> "Windows has detected mouse movement. Windows will reboot to commit >>>> this change" >>> "Windows has detected that a gnat has farted near your computer. >>> Press any key to reboot." >> >> Those don't surpass the real one: >> "No keyboard. Press any key to continue." > > :-) > > "Cannot delete : There is not enough free disk space. Delete one or > more files to free disk space, and then try again" has always made me > chuckle. I think that was Win95 (possibly NT4). > My all time favorite windows error: Error: The operation completed successfully. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 16:06:21 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 17:06:21 -0400 Subject: Qbus identification In-Reply-To: <515DDF74.7020209@dunnington.plus.com> References: <7635DB63-5D5D-4BA4-B5D5-F7DA22A4E165@gmail.com> <515DDF74.7020209@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 4 April 2013 16:15, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Or count the card slots. All 9-slot backplanes are straight. 8-slot > and 13-slot are mixed (for microPDP-11 and microVAX). Anything else is > serpentine. > That's not correct. The H9273-A backplane (quad wide, nine slot long, QQ/CD 18-bit) of the BA11-N box can be replaced with an H9275-A backplane (quad wide, nine slot long, QQ/QQ 22-bit) which is a serpentine backplane specifically designed to be put inside of a BA11-N box (for OEM use). I should know; I have an H9275-A backplane! (I don't have a BA11-N box to use it in though...) The H9276-A backplane of the BA11-S is a 22-bit wide QQ/CD straight backplane though. The "odd" DDV11 backplane is also a 9 slot backplane, but it is 18-bit, has the AB/CD slots as standard serpentine QBUS and the EF slots as just power and grounds. (For shits and giggles, rewire them as CD slots and have a QQ/QQ/CD backplane.) Also of note, the BA11-M box with H9720 is an 18-bit quad-wide serpentine backplane of four slots length; which can also have an H9270-Q backplane installed which is the same size but 22-bit. The BA11-V is always 18-bit (don't know if you can easily upgrade it to 22-bit) but only dual wide and four slots long if I remember (so, the serpentine moniker is incorrect). Only other QBUS backplanes of note are the H9281 series, where again the serpentine/straight+CD distinction is a non-issue since those are all dual-wide backplanes of various lengths. (And there's the H9278 of the BA23 which we'll ignore as you probably won't see one of those floating around "naked" without its box.) Cheers, Christian From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 16:15:29 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 17:15:29 -0400 Subject: Needed: older connector power cord In-Reply-To: <5147843E.8000806@jwsss.com> References: <5147843E.8000806@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <876C1887-AAC1-408F-8C5B-50219238C438@gmail.com> On Mar 18, 2013, at 5:16 PM, jim s wrote: > perhaps like the one in this auction for a Wurlitzer? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/121072536510 Hm, my Wurlitzer just has the power cord hardwired in. If I were any good at woodworking, I would have replaced it with an IEC receptacle long ago. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 16:21:37 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 17:21:37 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> On Apr 4, 2013, at 1:18 PM, mc68010 wrote: > [JT Computers] > > Their website http://www.jtcomputer.com/index.asp is what always made me wonder what their backstory was. It is such a generic off the shelf e-commerce site that makes them seem more like a PC servicing business not a big DEC parts shop. It really makes it look like they are a really small firm. Like two people in a office somewhere and a storage locker full of old DEC parts. I'm sure they had a website consultant build it for them. Lots of computer stores don't have a clue how to build a website, and it's easier to hire someone to make one. That someone then builds it from a template that makes it look like any other e-commerce site (as you described). Two people in an office somewhere and a storage locker (or warehouse, more likely) of computer parts is probably exactly what it is; you don't need a whole lot of staff to do what they do, and they do it fairly well. Website builders like that are responsible for this atrocity: http://www.baynesvilleelectronics.com Baynesville Electronics is one of the few remaining "real" electronics stores in the Baltimore area. It's pretty much the only place I know where I could go and buy resistors, diodes, ICs, transformers, etc. for the past decade or so. But from the website, you wouldn't have a clue what they really were. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 4 16:23:55 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: <515DE21D.7040005@gmail.com> References: <20130402081958.D55035@shell.lmi.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8A04F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20130403181439.F85291@shell.lmi.net> <515DE21D.7040005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130404140341.N99437@shell.lmi.net> > "Cannot delete : There is not enough free disk space. Delete one > or more files to free disk space, and then try again" has always made me > chuckle. I think that was Win95 (possibly NT4). During Windoze 3.10 installation, SMARTDRV was installed. NO, you did not get a choice, nor configuration options, and it was set for write cacheing. "Sector not found during write\nRetry?" (during one of the last couple of files) Normally, it could be easily handled by "Ignore", noting which file write had failed, renaming that file SECTORS.BAD and then manually installing THAT file. But, Because wrtite caching was enabled, SMARTDRV had long ago told the installer that the write had been done. SUCCESSFULLY Therefore, "Ignore" was not an option. "Abort" was not an option. "Fail" was not an option. Control could be regained by power cycling the machine. But, because the mode of write caching included re-arranged writes, the DIRectory entries had not been written. Power cycling brought you all the way back to before INSTALL. SSTOR and SPINRITE could not find the drive fault! But, it happened consistently, and at the same point. Solution was to copy some dummy files to the disk, so that the fault would occur at a different part of the INSTALL. I encountered it during BETA of 3.10. I contacted Beta Support. They said, "well, it's a hardware problem; we don't care about it." I pointed out to them that a "hardware problem" during delayed writes was a MAJOR disaster, and that we rely on the OS to enable us to recover or work around them. "We absolutely need to have a way to disable delayed writes." "Hardware fault; not our problem." They dropped me from subsequent Beta programs, probably due to my bad attitude (MS "Beta" wanted CHEERLEADERS, NOT faultfinders! For MY Beta testing, I hired a guy who could break a crowbar in a sandbox) Not much later, MS had to replace all of 6.00 with 6.2x due ENTIRELY to SMARTDRV delayed writes. (NO, it was NEVER a problem with "compression". EVERY error being blamed on "compression" was delayed writes." (cf. Swaine(Infoworld)/Gates flames)) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 16:32:47 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 17:32:47 -0400 Subject: VAX4000-100A with P-cache problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 4, 2013, at 4:40 PM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello. > I have a VAX4000-100A system, that's fully working, > except for a strange error on boot that notify about > errors in the P-cache. VMS starts up, but again it notify > that P-cache will be disabled due to high error-rate. > Probably the CPU has been damaged somehow, or it's malfunctioning > (if I'm not wrong the P-cache is integrated inside the CPU). > Anybody ever had a similar problem? > Could it be possible to find a replacement CPU somewhere, > not at terrible cost? You'd be looking for a KA52 CPU board. I imagine the 100A is upwards compatible with the KA53 and KA54 (faster versions of the same NVAX-based board), which may or may not be easier to find. The KA52 is DEC part 54-21797-01; it's also the same as the MicroVAX 3100/90 board. There's one on eBay here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/140880933550 $275 or best offer (good bet if you're in the US). The NVAX has pretty much everything integrated in the one chip, and the P-cache is its tiny 8K first-level cache; you'd have to replace the entire CPU, at which point you might as well just replace the motherboard. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 4 19:58:54 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 20:58:54 -0400 Subject: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> Message-ID: <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/04/13 9:03 AM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >>>> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >>>> being worth the price we are charged for them... >>> >>> >>> Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! >>> >>> Good one! >>> >>> g. >> >> I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? >> ;) > > Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you > paid for it new. :) The way to buy Macs is refurb/used. Will save a fortune, and you get the same great hardware. --Toby > > g. > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Apr 4 20:25:43 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 21:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Miniterm 1205S Message-ID: Does anyone have a service manual or schematics for the Computer Devices Miniterm 1205S? Thanks. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 4 20:32:19 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 20:32:19 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515E29A3.1070609@pico-systems.com> From: Brian Roth To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" Subject: VAX 11/780 Message-ID: <1365090232.96105.YahooMailNeo at web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I just recently acquired a very nearly complete VAX 11/780. I will be spending the next few months in a partial tear down and cleaning and with luck, hopefully little money to get it operational again. I am looking for whatever spare parts I can find for the VAX and its TU78 tape drive. I have plenty of spare drives and such. One thing I am in need of is a console boot floppy and whatever diags I can find on floppy for it. Also, I do have a hobbyist license but I would like to get an early version of VMS to run on it if I can find a tape. Holy moly! Amazing! Well, I used to know the 780 pretty well, but didn't save anything from the two I was manager of. The biggest problem I might imagine is getting the LSI 11 to boot off the floppy drive. I suspect original floppies may have deteriorated to the point they won't read. Higher-level diags can be booted from tape, but there were some low-level diags like control store diags that could only be run from the LSI 11. I believe the machine could actually CREATE a new diag floppy from the diag tape, though, so if you can find good blank floppies you could recreate the diags. Hmm, refresh my memory, the TU77 was the 800/1600 BPI drive and the TU78 was the 1600/6250 drive? I'm pretty familiar with both. We had an early TU77, and went through about 13 mod kits on it to get it to stop melting tapes on the heads. It really flew through tape, though. Good luck restoring this machine! Jon From xmechanic at landcomp.net Thu Apr 4 21:01:04 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 20:01:04 -0600 Subject: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> On 4/4/13 6:58 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 04/04/13 9:03 AM, geneb wrote: >> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> >>>>> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >>>>> being worth the price we are charged for them... >>>> >>>> >>>> Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! >>>> >>>> Good one! >>>> >>>> g. >>> >>> I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? >>> ;) >> >> Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you >> paid for it new. :) > > The way to buy Macs is refurb/used. Will save a fortune, and you get the > same great hardware. > > --Toby I can attest to that! Bought my Mac-Pro off E-Bay almost 2 years ago for $650 + shipping. It's a first generation Intel (2006), and runs everything I can throw at it, plus Windows XP Pro in a virtual machine on a second screen for stuff that just won't work on OSX. I have had pretty much *zero* problems with it, and compared to all the windoze boxes I've owned, that's saying a lot! Only thing I've done is add a couple extra drives and more memory. With a pair of Intel Xeon dual-cores at 2.0 Ghz, it's pretty snappy. ;) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 4 21:27:59 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 22:27:59 -0400 Subject: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/04/13 10:01 PM, Dave Land wrote: > On 4/4/13 6:58 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 04/04/13 9:03 AM, geneb wrote: >>> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>> >>>>>> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >>>>>> being worth the price we are charged for them... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! >>>>> >>>>> Good one! >>>>> >>>>> g. >>>> >>>> I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? >>>> ;) >>> >>> Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you >>> paid for it new. :) >> >> The way to buy Macs is refurb/used. Will save a fortune, and you get the >> same great hardware. >> >> --Toby > > I can attest to that! Bought my Mac-Pro off E-Bay almost 2 years ago for > $650 + shipping. It's a first generation Intel (2006), and runs In 2011, I got my 2009, 8 x 3GHz core Mac Pro for half Apple's *refurb* price (ebay again). Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* dual processor Mac G5 workstations. --Toby > everything I can throw at it, plus Windows XP Pro in a virtual machine > on a second screen for stuff that just won't work on OSX. I have had > pretty much *zero* problems with it, and compared to all the windoze > boxes I've owned, that's saying a lot! Only thing I've done is add a > couple extra drives and more memory. With a pair of Intel Xeon > dual-cores at 2.0 Ghz, it's pretty snappy. ;) > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 4 21:29:04 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 22:29:04 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515E29A3.1070609@pico-systems.com> References: <515E29A3.1070609@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <515E36F0.5040101@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/04/13 9:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > From: Brian Roth > To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" > Subject: VAX 11/780 > Message-ID: > <1365090232.96105.YahooMailNeo at web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > I just recently acquired a very nearly complete VAX 11/780. I will > be spending the next few months in a partial tear down and cleaning > and with luck, hopefully little money to get it operational again. I > ... > > Good luck restoring this machine! Seconded. I hope you will blog/document the whole process. I own an 11/750 but haven't started restoring it. --Toby > > Jon > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 4 21:43:28 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 22:43:28 -0400 Subject: English's irregularities - Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <515E3A50.3000802@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/04/13 1:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> A little stupid.. I know about the rules for appending an S in the right place, I just >> can't seem to master them. >>> I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then >>> I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks >>> about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple >>> pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin >>> of a single CPU compatible with something... > > English has inconsistent rules, and freely breaks them. > It seems to have more IRREGULAR conjugations, declensions, and plurals. > Can anyone explain why the 'I' is after the 'E' in "WEIRD"? > It's claimed that fully 25% of words break the I-before-E rule: https://www.quora.com/Grammar/What-are-the-trickiest-rules-in-English-grammar/answer/Caroline-Lee-4 --Toby From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 21:49:52 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 22:49:52 -0400 Subject: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > In 2011, I got my 2009, 8 x 3GHz core Mac Pro for half Apple's *refurb* > price (ebay again). Nice. > Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* > dual processor Mac G5 workstations. I used to see a lot of G3s being discarded, but those dried up a couple of years back. Right now, I see more G4s than anything else, but G5s are definitely being left out on the curbs around here (Columbus, OH). Intel Macs are still going for hundreds in these parts, even old ones. University surplus pretty much doesn't have any priced under $500 and they all sell quickly. -ethan From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Apr 4 22:15:17 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 23:15:17 -0400 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/04/13 10:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> In 2011, I got my 2009, 8 x 3GHz core Mac Pro for half Apple's *refurb* >> price (ebay again). > > Nice. > >> Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* >> dual processor Mac G5 workstations. > > I used to see a lot of G3s being discarded, but those dried up a > couple of years back. Right now, I see more G4s than anything else, > but G5s are definitely being left out on the curbs around here Sad. Great machines. A G5 is my main home desktop/dev box. Runs like a dream. --T > (Columbus, OH). > > Intel Macs are still going for hundreds in these parts, even old ones. > University surplus pretty much doesn't have any priced under $500 and > they all sell quickly. > > -ethan > From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Apr 4 22:47:00 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 23:47:00 -0400 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <106B557759F54E88B0E473EF7429366B@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 11:15 PM Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering > On 04/04/13 10:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Toby Thain >> wrote: >>> In 2011, I got my 2009, 8 x 3GHz core Mac Pro for half Apple's *refurb* >>> price (ebay again). >> >> Nice. >> >>> Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got >>> *two* >>> dual processor Mac G5 workstations. >> >> I used to see a lot of G3s being discarded, but those dried up a >> couple of years back. Right now, I see more G4s than anything else, >> but G5s are definitely being left out on the curbs around here G5 towers or the buggy imacs? I pretty much ended my Mac collecting at the last machine that would boot OS 9.x (a G4 MDD), but I would rescue a G5 tower just because I like the case. Most of the G3's have been recycled, G4's are being dumped lately so I expect G5s to be dumped soon as well (especially since Apple OS has not supported PPC in a long time). From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Apr 4 23:24:46 2013 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 21:24:46 -0700 Subject: Manuals needed... Message-ID: <20130404212446.31f037c5@asrock.bcwi.net> I'm looking for operating manuals and user guides for the following software products: ManagePro 2.0 (Avantos Performance Systems, circa 1993) Siebel 3.0 Siebel 98 Originals are best, but copies are O.K. Marketing, sales literature or brochures for the above products might be of interest. A bounty is available! Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 5 00:15:35 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 01:15:35 -0400 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <106B557759F54E88B0E473EF7429366B@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> <106B557759F54E88B0E473EF7429366B@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <515E5DF7.4020407@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/04/13 11:47 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 11:15 PM > Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: > Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering > > >> On 04/04/13 10:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Toby Thain >>> wrote: >>>> In 2011, I got my 2009, 8 x 3GHz core Mac Pro for half Apple's *refurb* >>>> price (ebay again). >>> >>> Nice. >>> >>>> Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got >>>> *two* >>>> dual processor Mac G5 workstations. >>> >>> I used to see a lot of G3s being discarded, but those dried up a >>> couple of years back. Right now, I see more G4s than anything else, >>> but G5s are definitely being left out on the curbs around here > > G5 towers or the buggy imacs? I pretty much ended my Mac collecting at > the last machine that would boot OS 9.x (a G4 MDD), but I would rescue a > G5 tower just because I like the case. > > Most of the G3's have been recycled, G4's are being dumped lately so I > expect G5s to be dumped soon as well (especially since Apple OS has not > supported PPC in a long time). Like I said, I was finding G5s in the dumpster a year ago. And about eight G4 towers. Yes the G5 case design and interior is just lovely. A warning to anyone still running them: The power supplies can be very hard to replace, so stockpile working systems and parts. --T From roe at liveblockauctions.com Thu Apr 4 10:32:45 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 09:32:45 -0600 Subject: LA120 space bar Message-ID: <515D9D1D.1010601@liveblockauctions.com> I've acquired an LA120 Decwriter 3, it's missing the space bar. Does anyone have an idea where I could find one? I'd be willing to pay a reasonable price, and will of course cover shipping. Thanks. -- Roe Peterson / Director of Research & Development O. 306.523.4005 / C. 306.501.6802 *Help Desk: 1.877.694.6100 / 306.694.6100* From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Thu Apr 4 12:15:52 2013 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 19:15:52 +0200 Subject: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is it? Message-ID: <012601ce3158$104e40d0$30eac270$@lazzerini@email.it> Is there anybody who knows what is this old chip? And where to try to find it? If it help what I know is that it used to do somenting like shift data register or Serial Shift Registers. It has a TTL level signal on its pins, it has 14 pins. You can see it named U1 in the centre of this schematic: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zqhgar4g7ib5j4z/Xerox820_FDC_Schematic.pdf Some pins are labelled on a schematics with: 1=D1, 2=D2, 3=D3, 4=D4, 10=A1, 11=A2, 12=A3, 13=A4, 14=A4, 15=ChipEnable (left to GND), 7=GND, 14=+5Vcc Thanks Enrico From roe at liveblockauctions.com Thu Apr 4 15:19:41 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 14:19:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: Qbus identification In-Reply-To: <7635DB63-5D5D-4BA4-B5D5-F7DA22A4E165@gmail.com> References: <7635DB63-5D5D-4BA4-B5D5-F7DA22A4E165@gmail.com> Message-ID: <75B18E92-9AD8-4CE3-A588-2C5B795363CC@liveblockauctions.com> On Apr 4, 2013, at 7:01 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Apr 3, 2013, at 19:21, Roe Peterson wrote: > >> >> I'm looking at upgrading a pdp11/73 in a pdp11/23plus box to an 11/83. Is there a simple multimeter test I can do on a qbus slot to determine if it is Q/Q -- which i understand can be serpentine, or Q/CD, which are PMI capable for the 11/83 CPU. > > Easier: find the model number of your backplane here: > > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis > > If you have a BA23 or BA11-S chassis, Thanks. It's a BA11-S, the H7861 power supply is a dead giveaway. I'll install the 83 after work. AKAIK, the memory cards actually get installed _above_ the CPU, with the unibus stuff below. > you ought to be set. > > - Dave From george at rachors.com Fri Apr 5 00:29:11 2013 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 22:29:11 -0700 Subject: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I inherited a G5 tower from a non-profit org. They had retired it in favor of newer hardware. First thing I did with it was to archive their data. I was in the process of setting it up for my use. Got it personalized then went to power it on the next weekend and it wouldn't start?? No screen and an increasing fan noise?.. Was their a common problem with these? And yes I flushed the pram and tried a new battery. George Rachor george at rachors.com Bummer. Would have been a nice box. On Apr 4, 2013, at 7:27 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 04/04/13 10:01 PM, Dave Land wrote: >> On 4/4/13 6:58 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> On 04/04/13 9:03 AM, geneb wrote: >>>> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >>>> >>>>>>> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >>>>>>> being worth the price we are charged for them... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! >>>>>> >>>>>> Good one! >>>>>> >>>>>> g. >>>>> >>>>> I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? >>>>> ;) >>>> >>>> Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you >>>> paid for it new. :) >>> >>> The way to buy Macs is refurb/used. Will save a fortune, and you get the >>> same great hardware. >>> >>> --Toby >> >> I can attest to that! Bought my Mac-Pro off E-Bay almost 2 years ago for >> $650 + shipping. It's a first generation Intel (2006), and runs > > In 2011, I got my 2009, 8 x 3GHz core Mac Pro for half Apple's *refurb* price (ebay again). > > Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* dual processor Mac G5 workstations. > > --Toby > >> everything I can throw at it, plus Windows XP Pro in a virtual machine >> on a second screen for stuff that just won't work on OSX. I have had >> pretty much *zero* problems with it, and compared to all the windoze >> boxes I've owned, that's saying a lot! Only thing I've done is add a >> couple extra drives and more memory. With a pair of Intel Xeon >> dual-cores at 2.0 Ghz, it's pretty snappy. ;) >> > From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Apr 5 01:31:33 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 08:31:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) Message-ID: Hah, a thread just in time for me! Hello fellow collectors. I got the card-less carcass of a pdp-11/23 (says so on the front and back type labels) some weeks ago. This is going to be my first pdp ever so please be a bit patient with me :) It is the BA11 variety and contains a H9273 backplane, which as far as I could find out is QQ-CD (consistent with your statement below). However the backplane has a sticker on it which is stamped "11/03" (?!) So what kind of CPU (or more generally, kinds of boards) am I looking for to populate this puppy? I've already done some reading on DEC stuff from bitsavers and gleaned that in order to make it an 11/23, it would have to hold either an M8186 (KDF11-A) or an M8189 (KDF11-B) processor. As the M8186 only comes in a dual slot form factor, it clearly can't make use of the CD interconnect on the backplane. The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful" use of the CD lanes. What are these intended for anyway (I was thinking of some sort of PMI predecessor, probably wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine? Also, are there any ressources online about the Q-22 upgrade? I might need do do that because I already was promised a 512kw MOS memory board by another German collector. TIA, yours sincerely Arno Pete Turnbull wrote: Indeed, or as Jerome suggested, looking at the configuration of the cards may give you a clue. So would the type of box: if it's a 3U-high (5.25") grey-fronted-metal-panel rack-mount box with three toggle switches, it's a BA11-N or BA11-S, which have straight backplanes (and are all QQ-CD), if it's a small tabletop box or a 2U (3.5") it's a BA11-V (tabletop) or BA11-M (2U) which have serpentine backplanes, and if it's a floor-standing microPDP-11 (or microVAX) box or a chassis with four or six pushbuttons on the front, it's a BA23 box which is QQ-CD in the top slots and serpentine below. Or count the card slots. All 9-slot backplanes are straight. 8-slot and 13-slot are mixed (for microPDP-11 and microVAX). Anything else is serpentine. BA11-M and BA11-V boxes are relatively uncommon. If it's a BA11-N, although the backplane is 18-bit, it's very easy to upgrade to 22-bit. >> -- which I understand can be serpentine, All Q-Q backplanes are serpentine, and all straight backplanes are QQ-CD. The only odd one is the hex-high DDV11-B, which is a serpentine backplane in the ABCD positions and not bussed at all (except for power in the standard contact positions) in EF - it's meant for custom wiring. Of course we're assuming it's a DEC box with a DEC backplane. A Plessey backplane, for example, might be different, but you'd probably know if it was non-DEC, because it's pretty rare to find DEC's dark green connectors on anything non-DEC. Plessey and GEC ones, again for example, are white. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 02:17:00 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 00:17:00 -0700 Subject: Commodore PET 6540 ROMs? Message-ID: <515E7A6C.5040401@gmail.com> This is a stretch, but I figured I'd ask: anyone have any spare 6540-series PET ROMs lying around? After diagnosing a number of other failures, Ialmost have my (very beat up) chicklet-keyboard PET working, but it looks like the -026 ROM (at F800-FFFF) has gone south -- it has a few corrupted bits here and there. It looks like adapters to fit standard 2716s are available to build, but before I invest time and/or money in one of those I thought I'd ask around. Thanks as always, Josh From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 5 02:20:01 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 03:20:01 -0400 Subject: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <6FCFB5BC19FA40A0A99DB6E00A90C4AE@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Rachor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 1:29 AM Subject: Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering >I inherited a G5 tower from a non-profit org. They had retired it in favor >of newer hardware. > > First thing I did with it was to archive their data. > > I was in the process of setting it up for my use. Got it personalized > then went to power it on the next weekend and it wouldn't start?? No > screen and an increasing fan noise?.. > Was their a common problem with these? And yes I flushed the pram and > tried a new battery. > > George Rachor > george at rachors.com > Bad capacitors, bad power supplies, leaking coolant destroying motherboards (on the water cooled models). From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 5 02:27:28 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 00:27:28 -0700 Subject: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering, too - Re: Amazing uptime... In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> Message-ID: <60661594-94ED-4C44-87F2-D4E89BC4E369@aracnet.com> On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:03 AM, geneb wrote: > Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you paid for it new. :) It depends on what you do. My late-2010 Mac Pro was definitely worth what I paid for it. Then again, I use it for the latest version of photoshop. Zane From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 02:38:23 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 07:38:23 +0000 Subject: English's irregularities - Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: <515E3A50.3000802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Toby Thain" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 05/04/2013 03:43:28 Subject: English's irregularities - Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled >On 04/04/13 1:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>>A little stupid.. I know about the rules for appending an S in the >>>right place, I just >>>can't seem to master them. >>>>I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then >>>>I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks >>>>about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple >>>>pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin >>>>of a single CPU compatible with something... >> >>English has inconsistent rules, and freely breaks them. >>It seems to have more IRREGULAR conjugations, declensions, and >>plurals. >>Can anyone explain why the 'I' is after the 'E' in "WEIRD"? >> > >It's claimed that fully 25% of words break the I-before-E rule: > >https://www.quora.com/Grammar/What-are-the-trickiest-rules-in-English-grammar/answer/Caroline-Lee-4 > >--Toby Not sure if you can see this in West Pondia..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duqlZXiIZqA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 03:07:24 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 08:07:24 +0000 Subject: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is it? In-Reply-To: <515e6c70.246a320a.0b4c.ffffe4c5SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Enrico Lazzerini" To: cctech at classiccmp.org Sent: 04/04/2013 18:15:52 Subject: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is it? >Is there anybody who knows what is this old chip? And where to try to >find >it? I believe that its a 74S288 which is 256 bit PROM (32x8) bit prom. So even if you find one you need to know its contents. Look for an application note for the 1297. > >If it help what I know is that it used to do somenting like shift data >register or Serial Shift Registers. > Often used for state decoding. From searching the web I can see that there is an FE2100 which is designed to replace the discrete logic on a FDC board and it mentions the 74S288.. >It has a TTL level signal on its pins, it has 14 pins. You can see it >named >U1 in the centre of this schematic: > >https://www.dropbox.com/s/zqhgar4g7ib5j4z/Xerox820_FDC_Schematic.pdf > > > >Some pins are labelled on a schematics with: > >1=D1, 2=D2, 3=D3, 4=D4, > >10=A1, 11=A2, 12=A3, 13=A4, 14=A4, > >15=ChipEnable (left to GND), > >7=GND, > >14=+5Vcc > > these match the chip outline in my Texas TTL manual (there are 4 more data outs which are unused in this application) > >Thanks > >Enrico > Sorry not 100% of needed info Dave G4UGM From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 05:41:32 2013 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:41:32 +0200 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: >>> Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* >>> dual processor Mac G5 workstations. Yeah. In US ;( I wish I could get a G5 for free here. Or at least in affordable price. -- Ola Hughson From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 06:47:43 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:47:43 +0100 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 11:41, Ola Hughson wrote: >>>> Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* >>>> dual processor Mac G5 workstations. > > Yeah. In US ;( > I wish I could get a G5 for free here. Or at least in affordable price. I don't know where "here" is, but my dual-proc PCI-X G5 was given to me almost exactly a year ago - Easter 2012 - by a friend. I rarely use it & am considering eBaying it off. I wanted to make a server of it, but it only takes 2 drives internally, despite its considerable physical size, & any power/space/cost gains would be offset if I attached loads of external drives to it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 06:54:29 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 04:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515E36F0.5040101@telegraphics.com.au> References: <515E29A3.1070609@pico-systems.com> <515E36F0.5040101@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1365162869.26021.YahooMailNeo@web141401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ >From: Toby Thain >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 10:29 PM >Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 ? >Seconded. I hope you will blog/document the whole process. I own an >11/750 but haven't started restoring it. >--Toby ?I hope to do exactly that. Hopefully this will be the year for my new building to house everything. Brian. From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 07:02:59 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 05:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515E29A3.1070609@pico-systems.com> References: <515E29A3.1070609@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1365163379.53659.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ >From: Jon Elson >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2013 9:32 PM >Subject: VAX 11/780 >>From: Brian Roth >>To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" >>Subject: VAX 11/780 >>Message-ID: >>??? <1365090232.96105.YahooMailNeo at web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>? I just recently acquired a very nearly complete VAX 11/780. I will >>? be spending the next few months in a partial tear down and cleaning >>? and with luck, hopefully little money to get it operational again. I >>? am looking for whatever spare parts I can find for the VAX and its ?>> TU78 tape drive. I have plenty of spare drives and such. One thing I >>? am in need of is a console boot floppy and whatever diags I can find >>? on floppy for it. Also, I do have a hobbyist license but I would >>? like to get an early version of VMS to run on it if I can find a tape. >Holy moly!? Amazing!? Well, I used to know the 780 pretty well, but didn't save anything >from the two I was manager of.? The biggest problem I might imagine is getting the >LSI 11 to boot off the floppy drive.? I suspect original floppies may have deteriorated >to the point they won't read.? Higher-level diags can be booted from tape, but there >were some low-level diags like control store diags that could only be run from the >LSI 11.? I believe the machine could actually CREATE a new diag floppy from the >diag tape, though, so if you can find good blank floppies you could recreate the >diags. >Hmm, refresh my memory, the TU77 was the 800/1600 BPI drive and the >TU78 was the 1600/6250 drive?? >Jon I remember seeing those diag floppies years ago and there was quite a few. Unfortunately there was no media with this machine, not even a console floppy. I'm working on locating those now. Yes, the TU78 is 1600/6250. Brian. From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 07:05:51 2013 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:05:51 +0200 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: 2013/4/5 Liam Proven : > On 5 April 2013 11:41, Ola Hughson wrote: >>>>> Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* >>>>> dual processor Mac G5 workstations. >> >> Yeah. In US ;( >> I wish I could get a G5 for free here. Or at least in affordable price. > > I don't know where "here" is Warsaw, Poland. -- Ola Hughson From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Apr 5 07:25:45 2013 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 08:25:45 -0400 Subject: RCA COSMAC Microkit Message-ID: <6350d49f$33d954e5$74bd3687$@com> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/RCA/COSMAC/ Photos of RCA COSMAC Microkit with 1801 card. Note the chip date of the TC 1085 on the processor card, which is the earlier version of the CDP 1801 (Microtutor), has a silk screen date of late 1974. Compare: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/RCA/COSMAC/RCA_GPA-3901822_front.jpg (Microkit) http://www.decodesystems.com/cosmac/mt5.jpg (Microtutor) Does anyone have a COSMAC Microkit user manual? I have downloaded the docs for the COSMAC chip from Bitsavers, but there is no reference to the earlier Microkit in this doc. The only printed reference to the Microkit I have is http://www.vintagecomputer.net/cisc367/EDN_Microcomputer_Systems_Directory.p df EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II 1975 This appears to be a supplement publication to the EDN Journal (?) I can use the Microtutor manual at least to get started. Bill From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Apr 5 07:42:21 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 08:42:21 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515EC6AD.7030209@verizon.net> On 04/05/2013 02:31 AM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > Hah, a thread just in time for me! > Hello fellow collectors. > > I got the card-less carcass of a pdp-11/23 (says so on the front and back type labels) some weeks ago. > This is going to be my first pdp ever so please be a bit patient with me :) > > It is the BA11 variety and contains a H9273 backplane, which as far as I could find out is QQ-CD > (consistent with your statement below). > However the backplane has a sticker on it which is stamped "11/03" (?!) Look uo the backplan to find out its configuration. > > So what kind of CPU (or more generally, kinds of boards) am I looking for to populate this puppy? > I've already done some reading on DEC stuff from bitsavers and gleaned that in order to make it an > 11/23, it would have to hold either an M8186 (KDF11-A) or an M8189 (KDF11-B) processor. Also read the fine manual for the quad width 11/23 you will find there are jumpers/switches for use in AB/CD backplanes. Most quad width cards also conform to that. > As the M8186 only comes in a dual slot form factor, it clearly can't make use of the CD > interconnect on the backplane. The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured > for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another > environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful" use of the CD lanes. CD lines are needed for RL11 controller (two board RL01/02 controller). > What are these intended for anyway (I was thinking of some sort of PMI predecessor, probably > wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine? > > Also, are there any ressources online about the Q-22 upgrade? I might need do do that because I > already was promised a 512kw MOS memory board by another German collector. And if all else fails you can replace the backplane with one that is AB/AB as I've done that many times. Allison > TIA, yours sincerely > Arno > > > > Pete Turnbull wrote: > Indeed, or as Jerome suggested, looking at the configuration of the > cards may give you a clue. So would the type of box: if it's a 3U-high > (5.25") grey-fronted-metal-panel rack-mount box with three toggle > switches, it's a BA11-N or BA11-S, which have straight backplanes (and > are all QQ-CD), if it's a small tabletop box or a 2U (3.5") it's a > BA11-V (tabletop) or BA11-M (2U) which have serpentine backplanes, and > if it's a floor-standing microPDP-11 (or microVAX) box or a chassis with > four or six pushbuttons on the front, it's a BA23 box which is QQ-CD in > the top slots and serpentine below. > > Or count the card slots. All 9-slot backplanes are straight. 8-slot > and 13-slot are mixed (for microPDP-11 and microVAX). Anything else is > serpentine. > > BA11-M and BA11-V boxes are relatively uncommon. If it's a BA11-N, > although the backplane is 18-bit, it's very easy to upgrade to 22-bit. > >>> -- which I understand can be serpentine, > All Q-Q backplanes are serpentine, and all straight backplanes are > QQ-CD. The only odd one is the hex-high DDV11-B, which is a serpentine > backplane in the ABCD positions and not bussed at all (except for power > in the standard contact positions) in EF - it's meant for custom wiring. > > Of course we're assuming it's a DEC box with a DEC backplane. A > Plessey backplane, for example, might be different, but you'd probably > know if it was non-DEC, because it's pretty rare to find DEC's dark > green connectors on anything non-DEC. Plessey and GEC ones, again for > example, are white. > From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Apr 5 07:43:50 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 08:43:50 -0400 Subject: RCA COSMAC Microkit In-Reply-To: <6350d49f$33d954e5$74bd3687$@com> References: <6350d49f$33d954e5$74bd3687$@com> Message-ID: <515EC706.7060804@verizon.net> On 04/05/2013 08:25 AM, B. Degnan wrote: > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/RCA/COSMAC/ > Photos of RCA COSMAC Microkit with 1801 card. > Note the chip date of the TC 1085 on the processor card, which is the > earlier version of the CDP 1801 (Microtutor), has a silk screen date of > late 1974. > > Compare: > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/RCA/COSMAC/RCA_GPA-3901822_front.jpg > (Microkit) > http://www.decodesystems.com/cosmac/mt5.jpg (Microtutor) > > Does anyone have a COSMAC Microkit user manual? I have downloaded the docs > for the COSMAC chip from Bitsavers, but there is no reference to the > earlier Microkit in this doc. I believe its on the net but not there. There is a yahoo COSMAC users group. > The only printed reference to the Microkit I have is > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/cisc367/EDN_Microcomputer_Systems_Directory.p > df > EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II 1975 > This appears to be a supplement publication to the EDN Journal (?) > > I can use the Microtutor manual at least to get started. > Allison From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 07:46:34 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 08:46:34 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2013, at 2:31, "Arno Kletzander" wrote: > Hah, a thread just in time for me! > Hello fellow collectors. > > I got the card-less carcass of a pdp-11/23 (says so on the front and back type labels) some weeks ago. > This is going to be my first pdp ever so please be a bit patient with me :) > > It is the BA11 variety and contains a H9273 backplane, which as far as I could find out is QQ-CD > (consistent with your statement below). > However the backplane has a sticker on it which is stamped "11/03" (?!) > > So what kind of CPU (or more generally, kinds of boards) am I looking for to populate this puppy? > I've already done some reading on DEC stuff from bitsavers and gleaned that in order to make it an > 11/23, it would have to hold either an M8186 (KDF11-A) or an M8189 (KDF11-B) processor. The H9273 is perfectly compatible with an 11/23 CPU; there is a jumper you can set for 18-bit use. Obviously, though, turning it into a 22-bit backplane is preferable. Fortunately, that's pretty easy. > As the M8186 only comes in a dual slot form factor, it clearly can't make use of the CD > interconnect on the backplane. The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured > for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another > environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful" use of the CD lanes. Correct. The Qbus PDP-11s only used the CD lane for PMI (or custom logic, if you had that). I'd get the M8189 if you can, because it saves you the hassle of finding boot ROM and serial cards for the console. > What are these intended for anyway (I was thinking of some sort of PMI predecessor, probably > wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine? For an 11/23, those lanes will just go unused. It's not so bad, really; you have to try pretty hard to fill up 9 slots. > Also, are there any ressources online about the Q-22 upgrade? I might need do do that because I > already was promised a 512kw MOS memory board by another German collector. The 11/23 processor manual will tell you which pins are BDAL18:21. You just need to bus those together. The H9273 doesn't have wire wrap stakes out the back, so you'll have to solder, but it's not very hard at all. If it's in a box labelled 11/23, though, check to make sure someone hasn't already performed the modification. - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 07:56:29 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:56:29 +0100 Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled] In-Reply-To: References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 4 April 2013 20:16, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Mouse wrote: >> >> > English has inconsistent [spelling] rules, and freely breaks them. >> >> Indeed. In my more cynical moments I sometimes feel it has more rules >> than it does words. Consider `laughter'. Now prepend an `s'. Or >> change the `l' to a `d'. Or take `bough' and append a `t' to it. Or >> consider all the ways to pronouce `ough': bough, rough, through, >> though, cough, ought... > > I'm fond of this poem by Rosemary Chen, I guess what's true for Asians > is also true for the Dutch: > > Enough Is Enough > > Four letters cause me disillusion > OUGH makes phonetic confusion > Four simple letters with four pronunciations > Make learning English tough for Asians. > > OUGH has no logic, no rule > Or rhyme or rhythm; it will fool > All who struggle to master expression > English may cause thorough depression. > > I pour some water in a trough > I sneeze and splutter, then I cough. > And with a rough hewn bough > My muddy paddy fields I plough. > > Loaves of warm bread in a row > Crispy crusts and doughy dough. > Now, my final duty to do > And then my chores will all be through. > > My lament is finished, even though > Learning this word game is really slow. > It is so difficult, it's very rough > Learning English is really tough. > > If a trough was a truff > And a plough was a pluff > If dough was duff > And though was thuff > If cough was cuff > And through was thruff > I would not pretend, or try to bluff, > But of OUGH I've had enough The ultimate test of English pronunciation is the Chaos, by Gerard Nolst Trenit?: http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j17/caos.php It's quite famous - it's the verse that starts Dearest creature in creation Studying English pronunciation, I will teach you in my verse Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse. I recommend it - memorising it would be useful for both students and native speakers who have problems with the sounds of words. Its internal rhyme and scansion provide many useful hints, although as a century-old piece, sadly a whole bunch of its words are now obsolete. I am perfectly OK with not knowing how to correctly say "topsail" or "studding-sail". :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 07:58:33 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:58:33 +0100 Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now In-Reply-To: References: <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 4 April 2013 21:40, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > English has inconsistent [spelling] rules, and freely breaks them. >> >> Indeed. In my more cynical moments I sometimes feel it has more rules >> than it does words. Consider `laughter'. Now prepend an `s'. Or > > That reminds me of a sentence that I think is quoted in one of Martin > Gardner's books : > > 'Show the bold Prussian that praised slaughet, slaugher brings rout. > Teach this slaughter-lover his fall nears' > > Yo can delete the intial letter of all the words to form a new sentence. > > Incidentalyl, for the 'i before e' rule, I always liked : > > 'E before E except after C. We live in a weird society' :-) > > >> > "I disconnected the speaker on all of the computers in the lab." does >> > not imply that they share a speaker. >> >> Strictly speaking, the grammatical construct does imply that; in the >> case of that particular sentence that implication is overridden by the >> semantic unlikelihood of having all the lab's computers sharing a >> single speaker. >> >> > Should I have said that I disconnected the "speakerS"? or maybe "the >> > speaker on EACH computer"? >> >> Either one would fix it, yes. > > But 'I disconencted the speakers of al lthe computers in the lab' could > mean multipel speakers for each machine. That might have been comprehensible if not so typo-ridden that it was word-salad. That was one message, Tony, where it would have been worth your time to go slowly and carefully. It's also not threaded for me. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 08:00:29 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:00:29 +0100 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4 April 2013 22:21, David Riley wrote: > But from > the website, you wouldn't have a clue what they really were. Apart from the bit that says: WELCOME TO BAYNESVILLE ELECTRONICS! LOCATED IN TOWSON MD. 1631 E. JOPPA RD. BALTIMORE MD. 21286 TEL (410)-823-0082 FAX (410)-321-1912 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 08:07:10 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:07:10 +0100 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 13:05, Ola Hughson wrote: > 2013/4/5 Liam Proven : >> On 5 April 2013 11:41, Ola Hughson wrote: >>>>>> Pretty sure you can find them in dumpsters by now. That's how I got *two* >>>>>> dual processor Mac G5 workstations. >>> >>> Yeah. In US ;( >>> I wish I could get a G5 for free here. Or at least in affordable price. >> >> I don't know where "here" is > > Warsaw, Poland. Aha! I have not visited - only Krak?w, a beautiful city. Well, G5s seem to be down to around ?150 or so in Britain now and surface shipping would be fairly cheap. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 08:08:19 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:08:19 +0100 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Identifications_sought_=3A=AC=29?= Message-ID: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/04/gates_allen_reshoot_photo/ ? One of the most iconic photos from the history of Microsoft, featuring a lanky young Bill Gates perched next to his coding mentor (the way he tells it) Paul Allen, has been recreated at Seattle's Living Computing Museum. [...] Among the systems still surrounding them are an Apple II with twin drives and an ancient monitor in the top left of the picture, with a Commodore Pet below Bill Gates. Readers who can identify the other systems, please let us know in Comments. ? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 08:19:07 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:19:07 -0400 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Sad. Great machines. A G5 is my main home desktop/dev box. Runs like a > dream. > One of my friends' father has been using a third gen G3 iMac for browsing the web since they first came out. It was all he really needed. Last December the web site he mainly uses switched to HTML5 so the ancient browser he had on there couldn't render the site properly. So my friend "upgraded" him to a G5 iMac, that's five years old. Runs everything his dad needs again and is comparatively fast. Note the old G3 iMac is still running fine, it just can't run the latest browser. Along with my collection of old Macs, I have a beige G3 and an AGP G4 that still run fine, after some regular maintenance. From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 08:52:02 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:52:02 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2013, at 9:00, Liam Proven wrote: > On 4 April 2013 22:21, David Riley wrote: > >> But from >> the website, you wouldn't have a clue what they really were. > > Apart from the bit that says: > > WELCOME TO BAYNESVILLE ELECTRONICS! > LOCATED IN TOWSON MD. > 1631 E. JOPPA RD. BALTIMORE MD. 21286 > TEL (410)-823-0082 FAX (410)-321-1912 I suppose I should clarify that over here, "electronics store" usually means a place where you buy a stereo, not a place where you buy diodes. That's what I meant by "what they really were". - Dave From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 09:05:49 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:05:49 -0500 Subject: English's irregularities - Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled In-Reply-To: References: <515E3A50.3000802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Good looking show. I'll have to see if we have that on BBC America. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 2:38 AM, Dave wrote: > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Toby Thain" > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Sent: 05/04/2013 03:43:28 > Subject: English's irregularities - Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 > is now obsolete, will be dismantled > >> On 04/04/13 1:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> >>>> A little stupid.. I know about the rules for appending an S in the >>>> right place, I just >>>> can't seem to master them. >>>> >>>>> I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then >>>>> I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks >>>>> about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple >>>>> pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin >>>>> of a single CPU compatible with something... >>>>> >>>> >>> English has inconsistent rules, and freely breaks them. >>> It seems to have more IRREGULAR conjugations, declensions, and plurals. >>> Can anyone explain why the 'I' is after the 'E' in "WEIRD"? >>> >>> >> It's claimed that fully 25% of words break the I-before-E rule: >> >> https://www.quora.com/Grammar/**What-are-the-trickiest-rules-** >> in-English-grammar/answer/**Caroline-Lee-4 >> >> --Toby >> > > Not sure if you can see this in West Pondia..... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=duqlZXiIZqA > > > > From saquinn624 at aol.com Fri Apr 5 09:07:33 2013 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 10:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: English spelling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0001E0D1B6966-E34-1300C@Webmail-d120.sysops.aol.com> ************************************** On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > A little stupid.. I know about the rules for appending an S in the right place, I just > can't seem to master them. > > I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then > > I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks > > about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple > > pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin > > of a single CPU compatible with something... English has inconsistent rules, and freely breaks them. It seems to have more IRREGULAR conjugations, declensions, and plurals. Can anyone explain why the 'I' is after the 'E' in "WEIRD"? "I disconnected the speaker on all of the computers in the lab." does not imply that they share a speaker. Should I have said that I disconnected the "speakerS"? or maybe "the speaker on EACH computer"? And, in this particular example, "pin compatible" (or "pin-compatible") is a commonly used adjective that is not plural, no matter how many pins the device has. The object noun in the speaker sentence is the speaker, therefore if you disconnected more than one it would be "speakers" regardless of how many computers they were connected to. Same goes for the pin-compatible CPUs - the noun is the CPU, therefore pin remains singular (even though you're talking about multiple pins on multiple CPUs). Same logic that gives us "attorneys-general" and "gins and tonic" and a whole lot of confusion. As for weird, I just tell the students it's a weird word. Was it Bernard Shaw that threw away the rules he considered pointless and archaic? I know about cummings and capitalization, but that does little to make his poems easier to read or more comprehensible. From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 09:17:07 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:17:07 -0500 Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled] In-Reply-To: References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: That is fantastic. I've never seen that before. It also illustrates how the language is somewhat confounded by regional accents as well. Over here in the US at least, the words "parquet" (pronounced par-kay) and "khaki" (kak-ee) according to the verse rhyme, but here do not. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 7:56 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 4 April 2013 20:16, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Mouse > wrote: > >> > >> > English has inconsistent [spelling] rules, and freely breaks them. > >> > >> Indeed. In my more cynical moments I sometimes feel it has more rules > >> than it does words. Consider `laughter'. Now prepend an `s'. Or > >> change the `l' to a `d'. Or take `bough' and append a `t' to it. Or > >> consider all the ways to pronouce `ough': bough, rough, through, > >> though, cough, ought... > > > > I'm fond of this poem by Rosemary Chen, I guess what's true for Asians > > is also true for the Dutch: > > > > Enough Is Enough > > > > Four letters cause me disillusion > > OUGH makes phonetic confusion > > Four simple letters with four pronunciations > > Make learning English tough for Asians. > > > > OUGH has no logic, no rule > > Or rhyme or rhythm; it will fool > > All who struggle to master expression > > English may cause thorough depression. > > > > I pour some water in a trough > > I sneeze and splutter, then I cough. > > And with a rough hewn bough > > My muddy paddy fields I plough. > > > > Loaves of warm bread in a row > > Crispy crusts and doughy dough. > > Now, my final duty to do > > And then my chores will all be through. > > > > My lament is finished, even though > > Learning this word game is really slow. > > It is so difficult, it's very rough > > Learning English is really tough. > > > > If a trough was a truff > > And a plough was a pluff > > If dough was duff > > And though was thuff > > If cough was cuff > > And through was thruff > > I would not pretend, or try to bluff, > > But of OUGH I've had enough > > The ultimate test of English pronunciation is the Chaos, by Gerard > Nolst Trenit?: > > http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j17/caos.php > > It's quite famous - it's the verse that starts > > Dearest creature in creation > Studying English pronunciation, > I will teach you in my verse > Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse. > > I recommend it - memorising it would be useful for both students and > native speakers who have problems with the sounds of words. Its > internal rhyme and scansion provide many useful hints, although as a > century-old piece, sadly a whole bunch of its words are now obsolete. > I am perfectly OK with not knowing how to correctly say "topsail" or > "studding-sail". :?) > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From sales at elecplus.com Fri Apr 5 09:37:12 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:37:12 -0500 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <011901ce320b$0f8beae0$2ea3c0a0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 4:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? On Apr 4, 2013, at 1:18 PM, mc68010 wrote: > [JT Computers] > > Their website http://www.jtcomputer.com/index.asp is what always made me wonder what their backstory was. It is such a generic off the shelf e-commerce site that makes them seem more like a PC servicing business not a big DEC parts shop. It really makes it look like they are a really small firm. Like two people in a office somewhere and a storage locker full of old DEC parts. I'm sure they had a website consultant build it for them. Lots of computer stores don't have a clue how to build a website, and it's easier to hire someone to make one. That someone then builds it from a template that makes it look like any other e-commerce site (as you described). Two people in an office somewhere and a storage locker (or warehouse, more likely) of computer parts is probably exactly what it is; you don't need a whole lot of staff to do what they do, and they do it fairly well. This website was poorly done; the designer did not even allow for the copyright year to be updated! You are correct, most computer parts dealers have no clue about websites. JT Components is about 5 hours from me, and I have dealt with them for years. They are honest people who seem to know what they are doing. Cindy ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3162/6224 - Release Date: 04/04/13 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 09:51:17 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:51:17 +0100 Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled] In-Reply-To: References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 15:17, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > That is fantastic. I've never seen that before. It also illustrates how the > language is somewhat confounded by regional accents as well. Over here in > the US at least, the words "parquet" (pronounced par-kay) and "khaki" > (kak-ee) according to the verse rhyme, but here do not. Geoffrey, /please/ learn to bottom-quote if at all possible. It is really disrupting to read your posts. "Parquet" and "khaki" don't rhyme in British RP either (although "khaki" is generally "car-key" here). This may be either a simple mistake, or an artefact of the fact that the piece is roughly 75-100 years old. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Apr 5 09:54:33 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:54:33 +0000 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 4/5/13 6:19 AM, "Jason McBrien" wrote: >On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Toby Thain >wrote: > >> Sad. Great machines. A G5 is my main home desktop/dev box. Runs like a >> dream. >> > > >One of my friends' father has been using a third gen G3 iMac for browsing >the web since they first came out. It was all he really needed. Last >December the web site he mainly uses switched to HTML5 so the ancient >browser he had on there couldn't render the site properly. > >So my friend "upgraded" him to a G5 iMac, that's five years old. Runs >everything his dad needs again and is comparatively fast. > >Note the old G3 iMac is still running fine, it just can't run the latest >browser. > That?s what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, but the browser is not! My family and I use dual G4 Powermacs, which are wonderful machines. But once the browser protocols migrate from what their browsers can support, they might as well be doorstops from my family's perspective. -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 10:08:20 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 11:08:20 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <515EE8E4.8070207@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 10:54 AM, Ian King wrote: > That?s what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, but the > browser is not! My family and I use dual G4 Powermacs, which are > wonderful machines. But once the browser protocols migrate from what > their browsers can support, they might as well be doorstops from my > family's perspective. -- Ian I was gonna say "fortunately there's more to the Internet than web browsing", but then I suppose for most people that's just not the case. Indeed most nontechnical people nowadays have no idea of how a computer could be useful without a web browser, or without an Internet connection. "How do you click on links?" was a question I got from a young person (but not a child) at VCF-East last year, while he was going "oooh ahhh" over my PDP-11. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 10:22:48 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:22:48 +0100 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 15:54, Ian King wrote: > On 4/5/13 6:19 AM, "Jason McBrien" wrote: > >>On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Toby Thain >>wrote: >> >>> Sad. Great machines. A G5 is my main home desktop/dev box. Runs like a >>> dream. >>> >> >> >>One of my friends' father has been using a third gen G3 iMac for browsing >>the web since they first came out. It was all he really needed. Last >>December the web site he mainly uses switched to HTML5 so the ancient >>browser he had on there couldn't render the site properly. >> >>So my friend "upgraded" him to a G5 iMac, that's five years old. Runs >>everything his dad needs again and is comparatively fast. >> >>Note the old G3 iMac is still running fine, it just can't run the latest >>browser. >> > > That? what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, but the > browser is not! My family and I use dual G4 Powermacs, which are > wonderful machines. But once the browser protocols migrate from what > their browsers can support, they might as well be doorstops from my > family's perspective. -- Ian Thanks to ClassicCmp's very own Cameron Kaiser, there's TenFourFox for PPC Mac users running Tiger, and if you're on a later G4 or G5 with Leopard, there's Aurora. Both make these older machines far more practical today. http://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/ http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/43362/aurorafox OS X 10.4 has quite low hardware requirements - it runs fine on well-specced G3 Macs. But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might expect. I think a gigaHertz-class machine really is the entry level these days. A good fast high-spec 500-750MHz machine can be usable but it will be a little laggy and require some patience. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 10:33:47 2013 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:33:47 +0200 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: 2013/4/5 Liam Proven : > Well, G5s seem to be down to around ?150 or so in Britain now and > surface shipping would be fairly cheap. In a specific definition of "cheap". I am trying to get a box (Solaris 2.x media + manuals, sun shoebox and some other things) from UK here. I already paid half of the shipping cost (or so), but I cannot pay more now. (As in, a friend says that getting IBAN number would be troublesome, and he lost his PayPal account.) I've been thinking, however , about people who live nearby him and DO have PayPal (nearby Manchester), so I could send money to them and they would just meet and give it. I haven't really found anyone yet. And if I had a car/could ask a friend to go here by car, he would have to take two more things :x (or at least one). Oh, and I earn around ?250 each month. And You are right. Krak?w is beautiful :) I am considering eventually moving there. -- Ola Hughson From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 10:35:25 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 11:35:25 -0400 Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is now obsolete, will be dismantled] In-Reply-To: <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20130404052847.GB2652@Update.UU.SE> <20130404095438.H96299@shell.lmi.net> <201304041851.OAA24297@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <515EEF3D.7060203@gmail.com> Mouse wrote: > absent specific conscious attention (as now). The first time I had > occasion to pronounce the card game name "euchre", I picked the wrong > paradigm for the initial vowels and pronounced it "oyker" (my template > was (Leonhard) Euler's name - why that rather than "eunuch" or > "euphoria" or "eucalyptus" or "euphemism", I don't know). German vs. Greek. Peace... Sridhar From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 5 11:00:33 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:00:33 -0400 Subject: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <515EF521.8090208@sbcglobal.net> On 04/04/2013 08:58 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 04/04/13 9:03 AM, geneb wrote: >> On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> >>>>> Yeah, I was gonna say I've seen wierder. Something about Intel Macs >>>>> being worth the price we are charged for them... >>>> >>>> >>>> Hahahahahahahahahahah *gasps* ahahahahahahahahahahahaha! >>>> >>>> Good one! >>>> >>>> g. >>> >>> I'm guessing you recall that thread from (almost exactly) 7 years ago? >>> ;) >> >> Actually, I was laughing at the idea that _any_ Mac is worth what you >> paid for it new. :) > > The way to buy Macs is refurb/used. Will save a fortune, and you get the > same great hardware. > Great? [chuckle] ;) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 11:16:15 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:16:15 +0100 Subject: G5s now dumpster fruit - Re: How to buy a cheap Mac - Re: Emetics - Re: planned obsolescence is poor engineering In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D89FF8@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515CA6DC.8060106@sbcglobal.net> <77b3e71c-d90e-4f1a-adbf-43653186eb4e@email.android.com> <515E21CE.5040003@telegraphics.com.au> <515E3060.50803@landcomp.net> <515E36AF.9030706@telegraphics.com.au> <515E41C5.2020808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 16:33, Ola Hughson wrote: > 2013/4/5 Liam Proven : >> Well, G5s seem to be down to around ?150 or so in Britain now and >> surface shipping would be fairly cheap. > > In a specific definition of "cheap". [Nod] I am intimately familiar with the problem! > I am trying to get a box (Solaris > 2.x media + manuals, sun shoebox and some other things) from UK here. > I already paid half of the shipping cost (or so), but I cannot pay > more now. (As in, a friend says that getting IBAN number would be > troublesome, and he lost his PayPal account.) > > I've been thinking, however , about people who live nearby him and DO > have PayPal (nearby Manchester), so I could send money to them and > they would just meet and give it. I haven't really found anyone yet. > > And if I had a car/could ask a friend to go here by car, he would have > to take two more things :x (or at least one). > > Oh, and I earn around ?250 each month. Currently, that is more than me, if that is any consolation. And London is *expensive*. I believe people still travel regularly between the UK and Poland by coach. Could someone carry a wheely-bag piece of luggage for you with equipment in it? I moved a Mac & its 17" monitor to the Isle of Man that way... Cheaper than any alternative I could find. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 5 11:38:06 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:38:06 -0700 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:52 AM -0400 4/5/13, David Riley wrote: >On Apr 5, 2013, at 9:00, Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 4 April 2013 22:21, David Riley wrote: >> >>> But from >>> the website, you wouldn't have a clue what they really were. >> >> Apart from the bit that says: >> >> WELCOME TO BAYNESVILLE ELECTRONICS! >> LOCATED IN TOWSON MD. >> 1631 E. JOPPA RD. BALTIMORE MD. 21286 >> TEL (410)-823-0082 FAX (410)-321-1912 > >I suppose I should clarify that over here, "electronics >store" usually means a place where you buy a stereo, not a >place where you buy diodes. That's what I meant by >"what they really were". I'd personally try "Oregon Electronics" first if I needed to buy some diodes. I tend to avoid places with "electronics" in the name or description when buying Stereo Equipment. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Apr 5 11:43:14 2013 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:43:14 -0400 Subject: RCA COSMAC Microkit Message-ID: <4f28cb6f$1d0c5a8c$7230176d$@com> Here is an article about the Microkit that came out later in 1975: > > > Does anyone have a COSMAC Microkit user manual? I have downloaded the docs > > for the COSMAC chip from Bitsavers, but there is no reference to the > > earlier Microkit in this doc. > I believe its on the net but not there. There is a yahoo COSMAC users > group. They do not have the Microkit User Manual, but there not even be one. Found this reference to the Microkit, but it's nearly a year newer than my system chip dates, meaning they were still selling Microkits though 1975: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/microcomputerAssociates/Microcomputer _Digest_v02n04_Oct75.pdf Bill From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 5 12:05:15 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:05:15 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F042E.40608@pico-systems.com> References: <515F042E.40608@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <515F044B.6020702@pico-systems.com> Jon Elson wrote: > Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 22:29:04 -0400 > From: Toby Thain > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 > Message-ID: <515E36F0.5040101 at telegraphics.com.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 04/04/13 9:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> > From: Brian Roth >> > To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" >> > Subject: VAX 11/780 >> > Message-ID: >> > <1365090232.96105.YahooMailNeo at web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > >> > >> > I just recently acquired a very nearly complete VAX 11/780. I will >> > be spending the next few months in a partial tear down and cleaning >> > and with luck, hopefully little money to get it operational again. I >> > ... >> >> > >> > Good luck restoring this machine! >> > > > > Seconded. I hope you will blog/document the whole process. I own an > 11/750 but haven't started restoring it. > > --Toby > > One huge advantage to the 780 is there are almost no custom parts in > it, other than > the LSI-11 which is still pretty much available, if needed. The whole > 780 CPU > was built out of 74Sxx chips, and could probably be maintained for another > 50 years if one wanted to. The only custom sort of parts would be in the > power supplies, which would be easy to swap out with generic DC supplies > if you couldn't repair them. > > Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 5 12:22:42 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:22:42 -0700 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> On 4/5/13 8:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might > expect. eBay, in particular. A 2GHz dual G5 is now too slow to be useful to browse a category even with TenFourFox due to Javascript bloat. I get through a page or two and give up in disgust. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 12:27:26 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 13:27:26 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <515F097E.2020806@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 01:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might >> expect. > > eBay, in particular. A 2GHz dual G5 is now too slow to be useful to > browse a > category even with TenFourFox due to Javascript bloat. I get through a > page or > two and give up in disgust. PROGRESS! ...or something. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jrasite at eoni.com Fri Apr 5 12:36:25 2013 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 10:36:25 -0700 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3A4C607D4DE346DE9CDA77F0CA73A42D@JimArnottPC> -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow >On 4/5/13 8:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might >> expect. > eBay, in particular. A 2GHz dual G5 is now too slow to be useful to browse > a > category even with TenFourFox due to Javascript bloat. What browser? I've found that in many cases the only browser that will provide a fully functional site is Safari. (And it too has its limitations.) Jim From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 5 12:39:44 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 18:39:44 +0100 Subject: English spelling In-Reply-To: <8D0001E0D1B6966-E34-1300C@Webmail-d120.sysops.aol.com> References: <8D0001E0D1B6966-E34-1300C@Webmail-d120.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <008c01ce3224$93d2cbc0$bb786340$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Scott Quinn > Sent: 05 April 2013 15:08 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: English spelling > > ************************************** > > > > > On Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > A little stupid.. I know about the rules for appending an S in the > > right > place, I just > > can't seem to master them. > > > I thought that perhaps Swedish does not have such a concept but then > > > I saw that he does speak of power supplieS and fanS; he even talks > > > about making the CPU's pin compatible, although instead of multiple > > > pins of multiple CPUs that seems to suggest making the (single) pin > > > of a single CPU compatible with something... > > English has inconsistent rules, and freely breaks them. > It seems to have more IRREGULAR conjugations, declensions, and plurals. > Can anyone explain why the 'I' is after the 'E' in "WEIRD"? > > "I disconnected the speaker on all of the computers in the lab." does not > imply that they share a speaker. Should I have said that I disconnected > the "speakerS"? or maybe "the speaker on EACH computer"? > > And, in this particular example, "pin compatible" (or "pin-compatible") is a > commonly used adjective that is not plural, no matter how many pins the > device has. > > > > The object noun in the speaker sentence is the speaker, therefore if you > disconnected more than one it would be "speakers" regardless of how many > computers they were connected to. Same goes for the pin-compatible CPUs > - the noun is the CPU, therefore pin remains singular (even though you're > talking about multiple pins on multiple CPUs). Same logic that gives us > "attorneys-general" and "gins and tonic" and a whole lot of confusion. > > As for weird, I just tell the students it's a weird word. > > > Was it Bernard Shaw that threw away the rules he considered pointless and > archaic? I know about cummings and capitalization, but that does little to > make his poems easier to read or more comprehensible. > > > Here is a poem that was in a book that my wife used when she was learning English. I love the way that words spelled differently at the end rhyme, and the words that have the same ending don't rhyme. When the English tongue we speak Why is break not rhymed with weak? Won't you tell me why it's true We say sew, but also few? And the maker of a verse Cannot rhyme his horse with worse? Beard is not the same as heard, Cord is different from word, Cow is cow, but low is low, Shoe is never rhymed with foe. Think of hose and dose and lose, And think of goose and yet of choose, Think of comb and tomb and bomb, Doll and roll and home and some. And since pay is rhymed with say, Why not paid with said I pray? Think of blood and food and good; Mould is not pronounced like could. Why is it done, but gone and lone Is there any reason known? To sum it up, it seems to me That sounds and letters don't agree. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 5 12:56:08 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 13:56:08 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_?= =?windows-1252?Q?archiving_=95_The_Register?= Message-ID: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> And interesting (and seemingly straight-forward) article about issues we face & discussed: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving Mountains of unreadable obsolete magnetic tapes! By Chris Mellor http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/03/archive_technology_problem/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 13:01:52 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:01:52 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/5/13 8:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might >> expect. > > eBay, in particular. A 2GHz dual G5 is now too slow to be useful to browse a > category even with TenFourFox due to Javascript bloat. I get through a page > or two and give up in disgust. When Javascript changed to 64-bit ints, it really pummelled CPU and memory requirements on 32-bit machines. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 5 13:21:10 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 11:21:10 -0700 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: At 2:54 PM +0000 4/5/13, Ian King wrote: >That's what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, but the >browser is not! My family and I use dual G4 Powermacs, which are >wonderful machines. But once the browser protocols migrate from what >their browsers can support, they might as well be doorstops from my >family's perspective. -- Ian The reason I upgraded from a 8500/180 to a G4/450 (2nd sold in the area, such an early model it was running System 8.6), and then from the G4/450 to a Rev.0 dual 2Ghz G5 was due to the speed at which I could surf. The reason I moved from the G5 to a late-2010 Mac Pro was because the G5 died after about seven years. With both the G5 PowerMac and the Mac Pro, the most important aspects were the amount of RAM and the number of HD's they can handle. In fact when I bought the dual 2.4Ghz 4-core (8-cores total) Mac Pro, until I took it above the stock 6Gb RAM, it was slower than the ancient G5. It would be nice if Apple would sell systems with enough RAM to run the OS. With the G4, I kept it running for a couple years, by doing my surfing on a Pentium 4 box I had. Zane Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 13:28:42 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 14:28:42 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 02:21 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> That's what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, but >> the >> browser is not! My family and I use dual G4 Powermacs, which are >> wonderful machines. But once the browser protocols migrate from what >> their browsers can support, they might as well be doorstops from my >> family's perspective. -- Ian > > The reason I upgraded from a 8500/180 to a G4/450 (2nd sold in the area, > such an early model it was running System 8.6), and then from the G4/450 > to a Rev.0 dual 2Ghz G5 was due to the speed at which I could surf. The > reason I moved from the G5 to a late-2010 Mac Pro was because the G5 > died after about seven years. > > With both the G5 PowerMac and the Mac Pro, the most important aspects > were the amount of RAM and the number of HD's they can handle. In fact > when I bought the dual 2.4Ghz 4-core (8-cores total) Mac Pro, until I > took it above the stock 6Gb RAM, it was slower than the ancient G5. I ran my G5 for a very long time for the same reason. > It > would be nice if Apple would sell systems with enough RAM to run the > OS. There is NEVER enough ram to run OS X. That's the main reason why I dumped it after so many years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From sales at elecplus.com Fri Apr 5 14:18:04 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:18:04 -0500 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 1:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) On 04/05/2013 02:21 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> That's what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, >> but the browser is not! This is the exact reason one of our home pages is straight HTML, W3C certified. We can test old NIC cards on Win 95 or 98 with no problem! Yes, the page could look a lot better and still be straight HTML; maybe when I get time I will re-do it. There really is no reason that web pages have to be so all-consuming. Designers seem to think that we want to be overloaded with visual sensations. Personally, I would much rather get the info I need, and not be pestered with ads and garbage. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3162/6224 - Release Date: 04/04/13 From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 14:23:41 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:23:41 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> Message-ID: <378F23E2-B74E-403C-ADE5-0823DC27DB14@gmail.com> On Apr 5, 2013, at 3:18 PM, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" wrote: > On 04/05/2013 02:21 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> That's what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, >>> but the browser is not! > > This is the exact reason one of our home pages is straight HTML, W3C > certified. We can test old NIC cards on Win 95 or 98 with no problem! Yes, > the page could look a lot better and still be straight HTML; maybe when I > get time I will re-do it. > > There really is no reason that web pages have to be so all-consuming. > Designers seem to think that we want to be overloaded with visual > sensations. Personally, I would much rather get the info I need, and not be > pestered with ads and garbage. Sure. Craigslist takes the same approach. It may look a little bare-bones, but last I checked, I could still use it with Lynx (assuming I didn't need to see photos, anyway). - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 14:24:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:24:13 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> Message-ID: <515F24DD.6010900@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 03:18 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > This is the exact reason one of our home pages is straight HTML, W3C > certified. We can test old NIC cards on Win 95 or 98 with no problem! Yes, > the page could look a lot better and still be straight HTML; maybe when I > get time I will re-do it. Bravo! > There really is no reason that web pages have to be so all-consuming. > Designers seem to think that we want to be overloaded with visual > sensations. Personally, I would much rather get the info I need, and not be > pestered with ads and garbage. Hear hear. I hate this "visual noise" generation that we seem to be mired in. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 14:30:28 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:30:28 -0700 Subject: Interesting ebay Northstar system In-Reply-To: <515A36B5.7681.339201D@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <515A36B5.7681.339201D@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <515F2654.90302@gmail.com> Who would have thought there would be a Nortstar Horizon in there. http://www.ebay.com/itm/261090432601 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 14:37:24 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:37:24 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <378F23E2-B74E-403C-ADE5-0823DC27DB14@gmail.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> <378F23E2-B74E-403C-ADE5-0823DC27DB14@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515F27F4.6020309@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 03:23 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>> That's what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, >>>> but the browser is not! >> >> This is the exact reason one of our home pages is straight HTML, W3C >> certified. We can test old NIC cards on Win 95 or 98 with no problem! Yes, >> the page could look a lot better and still be straight HTML; maybe when I >> get time I will re-do it. >> >> There really is no reason that web pages have to be so all-consuming. >> Designers seem to think that we want to be overloaded with visual >> sensations. Personally, I would much rather get the info I need, and not be >> pestered with ads and garbage. > > Sure. Craigslist takes the same approach. It may look a little > bare-bones, but last I checked, I could still use it with Lynx > (assuming I didn't need to see photos, anyway). Yep. And it's FAST, and lets you get stuff done. I think most sites nowadays are designed to dazzle and bamboozle you to the point where you'll buy something that you otherwise might not have bought. (which is something I wouldn't put past the suits, of course) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 14:37:49 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 11/780 References: <515F042E.40608@pico-systems.com> <515F044B.6020702@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1365190669.71641.YahooMailNeo@web141404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Jon Elson To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Friday, April 5, 2013 1:05 PM Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 ?? > One huge advantage to the 780 is there are almost no custom parts in it, other than > the LSI-11 which is still pretty much available, if needed.? The whole 780 CPU > was built out of 74Sxx chips, and could probably be maintained for another > 50 years if one wanted to.? The only custom sort of parts would be in the > power supplies, which would be easy to swap out with generic DC supplies > if you couldn't repair them. > > Jon Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. Brian. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 14:44:06 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:44:06 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 15:18, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > This is the exact reason one of our home pages is straight HTML, W3C > certified. > I like web designs like that. For the specific reason designs that are plain HTML are far, far more accessible then a flash filled monstrosity. > There really is no reason that web pages have to be so all-consuming. > There is a perfectly valid reason for such horrendous design: Pandering to the kiddies with far too much of mommy and daddy's money and with the average intelligence of a pistachio. Cheers, Christian From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 5 14:46:00 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:46:00 -0700 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F044B.6020702@pico-systems.com> References: <515F042E.40608@pico-systems.com> <515F044B.6020702@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <515F29F8.9080009@jwsss.com> On 4/5/2013 10:05 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > One huge advantage to the 780 is there are almost no custom parts in > it, other than > the LSI-11 which is still pretty much available, if needed. The whole > 780 CPU > was built out of 74Sxx chips, and could probably be maintained for > another > 50 years if one wanted to. Right now that may be true, but I have a huge pile of 74xxx, etc., chips and other similar age logic which a friend who did printer repair cast off in a downsizing. It is all NOS and unused, but I can't give it away. I suspect you should lay in a supply of 7400 stuff if you really wanted to maintain it, because the outcome of the market not wanting anything is that you pay thru the nose in a couple or a few years for what was easily obtained at one time. It happens slowly and only after you turn around and discover you really need something. it is better than what was mentioned on the other thread with the omnibus chips though. thanks JIm From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Apr 5 14:48:44 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F24DD.6010900@neurotica.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> <515F24DD.6010900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201304051948.PAA08293@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> There really is no reason that web pages have to be so >> all-consuming. Designers seem to think that we want to be >> overloaded with visual sensations. Personally, I would much rather >> get the info I need, and not be pestered with ads and garbage. > Hear hear. I hate this "visual noise" generation that we seem to be > mired in. Agreed. There's a reason I use lynx. Actually, there are multiple reasons I use lynx. But that's one. See http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2009-09-07-1.html for a more fleshed-out explanation of my stance; roughly the second quarter of that post addresses this issue. (Other posts on that blah talk about other reasons, to varying extents....) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 14:50:47 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:50:47 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515F2B17.3090408@gmail.com> David Riley wrote: > http://www.baynesvilleelectronics.com > > Baynesville Electronics is one of the few remaining "real" > electronics stores in the Baltimore area. It's pretty much the > only place I know where I could go and buy resistors, diodes, > ICs, transformers, etc. for the past decade or so. But from > the website, you wouldn't have a clue what they really were. Holy smoking pile of crap, Batman! Peace... Sridhar From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 5 14:53:17 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:53:17 -0700 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F24DD.6010900@neurotica.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> <515F24DD.6010900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515F2BAD.8090903@jwsss.com> On 4/5/2013 12:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hear hear. I hate this "visual noise" generation that we seem to be mired in. > > -Dave There are some improvements that are on the way that have moved the browser graphic performance to the level of useful for in browser graphics gaming, and it is all in javascript engine fiddling. I don't think it will be going the other way any time soon. Web pages as in hypertexted pages, or front ends to databases you are all 100% right, give me something enhanced on the old fashioned text terminal screen maybe, but not bloat, and be done. Too many pages are way too busy. but the performance I saw in a recent posting for running games leads me to believe that there will be way more javascript stuff coming that relies on that performance, and none of it will be supported in either the mac G5 os's or in the earlier Intel mac os's. I have a very nice macbook which is in that catagory, and is stuck in an apple time warp that is the real disaster to contend with. if it had been much more than the 100 bucks I gave for it and does run vnc for remoting into my computing systems, I'd not have any user for it. I'm waiting for an affordable take on the larger Chrome notebook with the high density screen. That is really more useful than anything else. Lots of small clear windows on a nice clear screen. jim From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 14:59:47 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:59:47 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: An interesting article, but the issue is a bit overblown. I still have inbox files from when I was in college. They are in simple text mbox format. I could throw them away, but why? They take up around .01% of my total backup server space. They aren't indexed, but I could easily point my indexing engine at them if I wanted to. If my kids care about them when they grow up they can troll through them (at which point I'm sure they'll take up .0000001% of their available space) On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > And interesting (and seemingly straight-forward) article about > issues we face & discussed: > > Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving > Mountains of unreadable obsolete magnetic tapes! > By Chris Mellor > http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2013/04/03/archive_technology_**problem/ > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.**org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 15:06:58 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:06:58 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <1365190669.71641.YahooMailNeo@web141404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <515F042E.40608@pico-systems.com> <515F044B.6020702@pico-systems.com> <1365190669.71641.YahooMailNeo@web141404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <515F2EE2.6020902@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 03:37 PM, Brian Roth wrote: > > Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on > single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. The blowers? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 15:07:36 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:07:36 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> Message-ID: <515F2F08.9080002@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 03:44 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> There really is no reason that web pages have to be so all-consuming. >> > There is a perfectly valid reason for such horrendous design: Pandering to > the kiddies with far too much of mommy and daddy's money and with the > average intelligence of a pistachio. Nicely put. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 15:30:12 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:30:12 -0400 Subject: What's this 88000 based qbus cpu about ? In-Reply-To: References: <515a36b5.7681.339201d@dave13.dunfield.com> <515D0DC4.2070807@gmail.com> <515D0F4E.500@neurotica.com> <515D144F.1030007@gmail.com> <52CD4F26-5AFD-437D-A22E-9B6F25C6C0AC@gmail.com> <515DB5E3.4070605@gmail.com> <43676949-D18B-45C2-8AD8-D35D7A68335E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2013, at 12:38 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 9:52 AM -0400 4/5/13, David Riley wrote: >> I suppose I should clarify that over here, "electronics >> store" usually means a place where you buy a stereo, not a >> place where you buy diodes. That's what I meant by >> "what they really were". > > I'd personally try "Oregon Electronics" first if I needed to buy some > diodes. I tend to avoid places with "electronics" in the name or > description when buying Stereo Equipment. Sure, if you already knew what that was. But if I'm in a new area and look in the Yellow Pages (or Yelp, or Google, or whatever) for an "electronics store", I'm going to find Best Buy or some local equivalent thereof. If I'm lucky(ish), I'll find MicroCenter, which at least sells SOME serial cables. But I'm not likely to find a place where I can ask for a 2N3904 and expect to get something other than a blank look. - Dave From brain at jbrain.com Fri Apr 5 15:36:08 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:36:08 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET 6540 ROMs? In-Reply-To: <515E7A6C.5040401@gmail.com> References: <515E7A6C.5040401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <515F35B8.7020006@jbrain.com> On 4/5/2013 2:17 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > This is a stretch, but I figured I'd ask: anyone have any spare > 6540-series PET ROMs lying around? After diagnosing a number of other > failures, Ialmost have my (very beat up) chicklet-keyboard PET > working, but it looks like the -026 ROM (at F800-FFFF) has gone south > -- it has a few corrupted bits here and there. It looks like adapters > to fit standard 2716s are available to build, but before I invest time > and/or money in one of those I thought I'd ask around. > > Thanks as always, > Josh I have a 6540 adapter that converts 2764-27512 to 6540 pinout in the store. I have assembled units under manufacture, but they have not arrived yet. Still, I have a couple bare PCBs here from the test run I can solder up for you if interested. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 5 15:44:43 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:44:43 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> On 04/05/2013 03:59 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> And interesting (and seemingly straight-forward) article about >> issues we face & discussed: >> >> Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving >> Mountains of unreadable obsolete magnetic tapes! >> By Chris Mellor >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2013/04/03/archive_technology_**problem/ >> > An interesting article, but the issue is a bit overblown. I still have > inbox files from when I was in college. They are in simple text mbox > format. I could throw them away, but why? They take up around .01% of my > total backup server space. They aren't indexed, but I could easily point my > indexing engine at them if I wanted to. If my kids care about them when > they grow up they can troll through them (at which point I'm sure they'll > take up .0000001% of their available space) > > For your situation, and mine, yes, it's overblown. But there are many large companies who do have to worry. Brings back some threads here from 6 - 7 years ago about how to preserve the data for our beloved classics... BTW, what's the word on Sellam these days? What's he up to? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 15:51:23 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:51:23 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Identifications_sought_=3A=AC=29?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can only identify the easier ones. Likely a Zenith H-89 in the middle, and I thought a TRS-80 Model I on the front right although the more I look at that picture the less detail I can see. That front left one looks quite familiar though. Wish there was a bigger picture out there. Love the remake though. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/04/gates_allen_reshoot_photo/ > > ? > One of the most iconic photos from the history of Microsoft, featuring > a lanky young Bill Gates perched next to his coding mentor (the way he > tells it) Paul Allen, has been recreated at Seattle's Living Computing > Museum. > [...] > Among the systems still surrounding them are an Apple II with twin > drives and an ancient monitor in the top left of the picture, with a > Commodore Pet below Bill Gates. Readers who can identify the other > systems, please let us know in Comments. > ? > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Apr 5 16:06:08 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:06:08 -0700 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <1365190669.71641.YahooMailNeo@web141404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <515F042E.40608@pico-systems.com> <515F044B.6020702@pico-systems.com> <1365190669.71641.YahooMailNeo@web141404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2013, at 12:37 PM, Brian Roth wrote: > > Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on > single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. Right. The only reason that it's 3-phase is for load balancing (across the phases). The invidual power supplies are all 110v single phase. TTFN - Guy From sales at elecplus.com Fri Apr 5 16:12:04 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:12:04 -0500 Subject: finding things on the internet Message-ID: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> Some things are easy to Google, and you get reasonably appropriate results. Other things give you whacky results! Google HP 700/96, and you get decent results. Google apple, and the first 20 items relate to Apple computers or Apple Corp., not to eating apples. Google Commodore, and surprisingly, the first line is not Commodore computer related. (Interestingly, it seems a company has bought the rights to the Commodore and Amiga names, and will be re-inventing the C64 with nVidia graphics inside) Google wolf cub, and you get everything from animals to Scouting to music to golf clubs! Seems like they need to tweak their algorithms again? _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3162/6224 - Release Date: 04/04/13 From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 16:28:36 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F2EE2.6020902@neurotica.com> References: <515F042E.40608@pico-systems.com> <515F044B.6020702@pico-systems.com> <1365190669.71641.YahooMailNeo@web141404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <515F2EE2.6020902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1365197316.40162.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >From: Dave McGuire >To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Sent: Friday, April 5, 2013 4:06 PM >Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 >>On 04/05/2013 03:37 PM, Brian Roth wrote: >> > >Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on > >single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. >? The blowers? >? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave I did a quick look at the Eng drawings and while the power controller is 3 phase it looks like the fans are single phase. Not sure whats going on inside the power controller yet. I'll be tearing into this in a couple of weeks so if anyone has experience with the conversion, speak out. I know its been done. Brian. ________________________________ -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 16:31:15 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 17:31:15 -0400 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> Message-ID: <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 05:12 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Some things are easy to Google, and you get reasonably appropriate results. > Other things give you whacky results! > > Google HP 700/96, and you get decent results. > > Google apple, and the first 20 items relate to Apple computers or Apple > Corp., not to eating apples. Of course. The Internet is a technical thing, despite salespeoples' attempt to turn it into something else, and despite the general public's fascination with thinking of it as the next generation of TV set. > Google Commodore, and surprisingly, the first line is not Commodore computer > related. (Interestingly, it seems a company has bought the rights to the > Commodore and Amiga names, and will be re-inventing the C64 with nVidia > graphics inside) I suppose that's not all that shocking, though it is somewhat dismaying. > Google wolf cub, and you get everything from animals to Scouting to music to > golf clubs! Good heavens. > Seems like they need to tweak their algorithms again? Of that there is NO question. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 5 16:37:19 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> Message-ID: <20130405143652.U19354@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 5 Apr 2013, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > There is a perfectly valid reason for such horrendous design: Pandering to > the kiddies with far too much of mommy and daddy's money and with the > average intelligence of a pistachio. That is an insult to pistachios. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 5 15:30:15 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 21:30:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is it? In-Reply-To: <012601ce3158$104e40d0$30eac270$@lazzerini@email.it> from "Enrico Lazzerini" at Apr 4, 13 07:15:52 pm Message-ID: > > Is there anybody who knows what is this old chip? And where to try to find > it? I've seen 733Wxxx house codes on Xerox chips before, but hav never seen the equivalents list. > > If it help what I know is that it used to do somenting like shift data > register or Serial Shift Registers. > > It has a TTL level signal on its pins, it has 14 pins. You can see it named > U1 in the centre of this schematic: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/zqhgar4g7ib5j4z/Xerox820_FDC_Schematic.pdf > > > > Some pins are labelled on a schematics with: > > 1=D1, 2=D2, 3=D3, 4=D4, > > 10=A1, 11=A2, 12=A3, 13=A4, 14=A4, > > 15=ChipEnable (left to GND), > > 7=GND, > > 14=+5Vcc Wait a second. You said jsut now it has 14 pins, and you give a signal for pin 15. Does it have a top cap or something :-) More seriousyl, if it's actually a 16 pin IC, I would guess it's a programmed 74x188 (open collector) or more likely 74x288 (3-state output) PROM. That's a 32*8 bit device that goes udner a variety of other numbers too, like 18S030. Fiffernt manufacturers had differnt programming algorithms, but the all work the same way in-circuit (in read mode). The pinout is : 1 : D0 2 : D1 3 : D2 4 : D3 5 : D4 6 : D5 7 : D6 8 : Gnd 9 : D7 10 : A0 11 : A1 12 : A2 13 : A3 14 : A4 15 : CE/ 16 : Vcc This could match your device, A4 is tied high (so only useing the second half of the ROM) and only the first 4 data lines are used. Of course the problem for you, I guess, is that a blank chip of the right type is of little use to you. You need to konw the contents (looks to be 16 4-bit words in your case). You could copy it from a working device fro the same type of machine, but other than that uou have some designing to do... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 5 16:36:16 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 22:36:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: English spelling [was Re: World?s top supercomputer from ?09 is In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Apr 5, 13 01:58:33 pm Message-ID: > > On 4 April 2013 21:40, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> > English has inconsistent [spelling] rules, and freely breaks them. > >> > >> Indeed. In my more cynical moments I sometimes feel it has more rules > >> than it does words. Consider `laughter'. Now prepend an `s'. Or > > > > That reminds me of a sentence that I think is quoted in one of Martin > > Gardner's books : > > > > 'Show the bold Prussian that praises slaughter, slaughter brings rout. > > Teach this slaughter-lover his fall nears' > > > > Yuo can delete the initial letter of all the words to form a new sentence. > > > > Incidentally, for the 'i before e' rule, I always liked : > > > > 'E before E except after C. We live in a weird society' :-) > > > > > >> > "I disconnected the speaker on all of the computers in the lab." does > >> > not imply that they share a speaker. > >> > >> Strictly speaking, the grammatical construct does imply that; in the > >> case of that particular sentence that implication is overridden by the > >> semantic unlikelihood of having all the lab's computers sharing a > >> single speaker. > >> > >> > Should I have said that I disconnected the "speakerS"? or maybe "the > >> > speaker on EACH computer"? > >> > >> Either one would fix it, yes. > > > > But 'I disconencted the speakers of all the computers in the lab' could > > mean multiple speakers for each machine. > > That might have been comprehensible if not so typo-ridden that it was > word-salad. I have hopefully corrected the major one, it should bow be readable. > > That was one message, Tony, where it would have been worth your time > to go slowly and carefully. It's also not threaded for me. Yes, and perhaps one day you will be able to do trivial soldering jobs, will be able to handle machine tools, and do various other things that I do without having to think about it. -tony From sales at elecplus.com Fri Apr 5 16:49:31 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:49:31 -0500 Subject: Amiga 4000/040 has been claimed Message-ID: <002c01ce3247$74599da0$5d0cd8e0$@com> The Amiga 4000 has been claimed. Many thanks to all those who inquired! Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6226 - Release Date: 04/05/13 From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Apr 5 16:58:51 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 21:58:51 +0000 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95_The?= =?Windows-1252?Q?_Register?= In-Reply-To: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Woyciesjes > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 10:56 AM > To: ClassicCMP > Subject: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register > > And interesting (and seemingly straight-forward) article about issues > we face & discussed: > > Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving Mountains of unreadable > obsolete magnetic tapes! > By Chris Mellor > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/03/archive_technology_problem/ > Popular press puffery. There are people looking seriously at these issues, rather than running around like Chicken Little. Oh, except the Microsoft problem: my daughter's homework is often sent to her in the latest version, which can't be read by any version that runs on a PPC-based Mac. Fortunately, my work laptop is a Macbook Air, but that's not an actual solution for the problem of anti-sustainable product churn. -- Ian From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 16:59:41 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:59:41 -0700 Subject: Commodore PET 6540 ROMs? In-Reply-To: <515F35B8.7020006@jbrain.com> References: <515E7A6C.5040401@gmail.com> <515F35B8.7020006@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Sounds cool -- where is it on the store? I found the 2364 adapters, but I'm not seeing anything for 6540s... Thanks! Josh On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 4/5/2013 2:17 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> This is a stretch, but I figured I'd ask: anyone have any spare >> 6540-series PET ROMs lying around? After diagnosing a number of other >> failures, Ialmost have my (very beat up) chicklet-keyboard PET working, but >> it looks like the -026 ROM (at F800-FFFF) has gone south -- it has a few >> corrupted bits here and there. It looks like adapters to fit standard >> 2716s are available to build, but before I invest time and/or money in one >> of those I thought I'd ask around. >> >> Thanks as always, >> Josh >> > I have a 6540 adapter that converts 2764-27512 to 6540 pinout in the > store. I have assembled units under manufacture, but they have not arrived > yet. Still, I have a couple bare PCBs here from the test run I can solder > up for you if interested. > > Jim > > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 5 17:02:55 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 23:02:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F2EE2.6020902@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 5, 13 04:06:58 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/05/2013 03:37 PM, Brian Roth wrote: > > > > Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on > > single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. > > The blowers? Yes, but what is likely to go wrong with the blowers? I would suggest it's either the bearings or th windings (probably the insulation breaking down in the latter case). The bearings are likely to be ball races nad will be standard sizes. I have never found a custom ball race in a computer. So you extract the old onws, measure internal and external diameters nad the thickness and go to the local bearing stockists. If they're bush bearings rather than ball races, you can make replacements ina good home workshop. The windings could be more of a problem. Yes, you can rewind motors, but in a lot of small blowers, the stator laminations are spot-welded to the casing, adter the thing was wound/ Rewindign looks to be a very fiddly job, but I guess it's possible. -tony From shumaker at att.net Fri Apr 5 17:22:51 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:22:51 -0700 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> On 4/5/2013 2:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/05/2013 05:12 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >> Some things are easy to Google, and you get reasonably appropriate results. >> Other things give you whacky results! >> >> Google HP 700/96, and you get decent results. >> >> Google apple, and the first 20 items relate to Apple computers or Apple >> Corp., not to eating apples. >> > Of course. The Internet is a technical thing, despite salespeoples' > attempt to turn it into something else, and despite the general public's > fascination with thinking of it as the next generation of TV set. > > >> Google Commodore, and surprisingly, the first line is not Commodore computer >> related. (Interestingly, it seems a company has bought the rights to the >> Commodore and Amiga names, and will be re-inventing the C64 with nVidia >> graphics inside) >> > I suppose that's not all that shocking, though it is somewhat dismaying. > > >> Google wolf cub, and you get everything from animals to Scouting to music to >> golf clubs! >> > Good heavens. > > >> Seems like they need to tweak their algorithms again? >> > Of that there is NO question. > > -Dave > > It's the new improved "dynamic search algorithm". Go back and do the query again from the same machine. The results won't be the same. "Recent" updates that Google turned on that supposedly look at the totality of your (and apparently other's) recent internet activity to post and rank results... s2 From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 5 17:23:46 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:23:46 -0600 Subject: Interesting ebay Northstar system In-Reply-To: <515F2654.90302@gmail.com> References: <515A36B5.7681.339201D@dave13.dunfield.com> <515F2654.90302@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <515F2654.90302 at gmail.com>, mc68010 writes: > Who would have thought there would be a Nortstar Horizon in there. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/261090432601 $75K with a feedback score of 27? Seems pretty risky. Looks like the seller bought it from gsaauctions.gov and is reselling it on ebay. There is a bunch of NASA/Shuttle stuff regularly showing up on gsaauctions.gov. Pretty orange and yellow keybaords, though. They look like ADDS terminals judging from the badge on the keyboard in the main photo. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 5 17:28:54 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:28:54 -0600 Subject: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving • The Register In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: In article <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010 at 505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>, Ian King writes: > Popular press puffery. There are people looking seriously at these issues, > rather than running around like Chicken Little. Oh, except the Microsoft > problem: my daughter's homework is often sent to her in the latest version, > which can't be read by any version that runs on a PPC-based Mac. > Fortunately, my work laptop is a Macbook Air, but that's not an actual > solution for the problem of anti-sustainable product churn. -- Ian While the above situation is true, it's not like "vendor lock-in" is some sort of new phenomenon that is only due to Microsoft. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 17:31:57 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 18:31:57 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=E2=80=A2?= =?UTF-8?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 17:58, Ian King wrote: > Oh, except the Microsoft problem: my daughter's homework is often sent to > her in the latest version, which can't be read by any version that runs on > a PPC-based Mac. Fortunately, my work laptop is a Macbook Air, but that's > not an actual solution for the problem of anti-sustainable product churn. > -- Ian > > While not an actual solution, and many will also find this unteneable; but I just simply refused to upgrade from Office 2003. There's a compatibility patch thing that lets Office 2003 use some of the Office 2007 and later formats, and that's fine for me. I refused to upgrade not because of compatibility reasons but because I utterly *loathe* the redesigned interface for Office 2007 and later (also the reason I am going to refuse to get Windows 8, because W8's interface makes me feel that the correct method of interface is "slowly bang head against wall until unconscious"). Can we just go back to VT-220 compatible terminals with ReGIS and Tek graphics, on PDP-11s, please? That would be nice. Cheers, Christian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 17:36:56 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 18:36:56 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515F5208.1000905@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 06:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on >>> single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. >> >> The blowers? > > Yes, but what is likely to go wrong with the blowers? I would suggest > it's either the bearings or th windings (probably the insulation breaking > down in the latter case). > > The bearings are likely to be ball races nad will be standard sizes. I > have never found a custom ball race in a computer. So you extract the old > onws, measure internal and external diameters nad the thickness and go to > the local bearing stockists. If they're bush bearings rather than ball > races, you can make replacements ina good home workshop. > > The windings could be more of a problem. Yes, you can rewind motors, but > in a lot of small blowers, the stator laminations are spot-welded to the > casing, adter the thing was wound/ Rewindign looks to be a very fiddly > job, but I guess it's possible. I'm suggesting that they might be three-phase, as they are in many other large VAXen. (I've never worked on the innards of an 11/780 myself) As you're likely aware, in some VAXen the ONLY three-phase component(s) is/are the blowers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 5 17:48:22 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 15:48:22 -0700 Subject: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515F54B6.4090607@sydex.com> The problem pretty much solved yesterday (Thursday) on Erik's VCF. My guess is that it simply takes that long for some messages to post. Part in question is the 74S288 bipolar PROM and used in the write-precomp portion of the 820 FDC board. Fortunately, the OP managed to find the reference design for the WD179x. I posted on the VCF the web site for a guy who will program 288s for a very reasonable charge. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 18:01:03 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 19:01:03 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <515F57AF.8050701@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 06:28 PM, Richard wrote: >> Popular press puffery. There are people looking seriously at these issues, >> rather than running around like Chicken Little. Oh, except the Microsoft >> problem: my daughter's homework is often sent to her in the latest version, >> which can't be read by any version that runs on a PPC-based Mac. >> Fortunately, my work laptop is a Macbook Air, but that's not an actual >> solution for the problem of anti-sustainable product churn. -- Ian > > While the above situation is true, it's not like "vendor lock-in" is > some sort of new phenomenon that is only due to Microsoft. I don't think anybody truly believes Microsoft invented vendor lock-in. But they certainly perfected it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 18:10:43 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 19:10:43 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > For your situation, and mine, yes, it's overblown. But there are > many large companies who do have to worry. Brings back some threads here > from 6 - 7 years ago about how to preserve the data for our beloved > classics... Apparently these people have forgotten that the mainframe people figured all this stuff out 40-some years ago. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 18:17:43 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 19:17:43 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F5208.1000905@neurotica.com> References: <515F5208.1000905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm suggesting that they might be three-phase, as they are in many other > large VAXen. (I've never worked on the innards of an 11/780 myself) As > you're likely aware, in some VAXen the ONLY three-phase component(s) is/are > the blowers. When I installed a VAX 8530 in our small shop in the early 1990s (when it was still a multi-thousand-dollar machine), it was our our only 3-phase box. ISTR it was as you mention - the blower was 3 phase but each PSU ran from its own leg with the load approximately balanced among them. -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Apr 5 18:30:33 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:30:33 -0700 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F5208.1000905@neurotica.com> References: <515F5208.1000905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <04DC0841-22C4-4A17-9DCF-05A443D7C41F@shiresoft.com> On Apr 5, 2013, at 3:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/05/2013 06:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on >>>> single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. >>> >>> The blowers? >> >> > > I'm suggesting that they might be three-phase, as they are in many other > large VAXen. (I've never worked on the innards of an 11/780 myself) As > you're likely aware, in some VAXen the ONLY three-phase component(s) is/are > the blowers. I just checked the field maintenance manual for the 11/780. I was correct in my earlier statement in that 3-phase is supplied for load balancing. The power controller is 3-phase but it splits out the individual phases. It splits the 3 phases into 4. Phase 1 has switched and unswitched outlets. Phases 2 & 3 are both switched. Blowers 1 & 3 are on switched Phase 3. Blower 2 is on unswitched Phase 1. In more detail here are the connections (not just the blowers): Phase1 Unswitched: 1. Blower #2 2. H7111 (T.O.D.) 3. PS #4 (MS780) 4. H7112 (memory battery backup) Phase 1 Switched: 1. 11/03 2. RX01 Phase 2 Switched: 1. PS #3 (CPU) 2. PS #1 (FP780) 3. RX01 fan 4. A.F. Sensor Box Phase 3 Switched: 1. PS #2 (CPU) 2. Blower #1 3. Blower #3 4. PS #5 (RH780) BTW on 115v 60Hz systems, the power controller is an 866-D. TTFN - Guy From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 5 18:41:19 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 19:41:19 -0400 Subject: PowerPC can run new Firefox - Re: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <515F611F.10904@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/04/13 10:54 AM, Ian King wrote: > On 4/5/13 6:19 AM, "Jason McBrien" wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Toby Thain >> wrote: >> >>> Sad. Great machines. A G5 is my main home desktop/dev box. Runs like a >>> dream. >>> >> >> >> One of my friends' father has been using a third gen G3 iMac for browsing >> the web since they first came out. It was all he really needed. Last >> December the web site he mainly uses switched to HTML5 so the ancient >> browser he had on there couldn't render the site properly. >> >> So my friend "upgraded" him to a G5 iMac, that's five years old. Runs >> everything his dad needs again and is comparatively fast. >> >> Note the old G3 iMac is still running fine, it just can't run the latest >> browser. >> > > That?s what's truly sad: it's not that the computer isn't capable, but the > browser is not! My family and I use dual G4 Powermacs, which are > wonderful machines. But once the browser protocols migrate from what > their browsers can support, they might as well be doorstops from my > family's perspective. -- Ian Thanks to the efforts of Cameron Kaiser, you can run the latest Firefox on G4 and G5, if you wish: http://tenfourfox.com And Safari on OS X 10.5 is very modern. Unfortunately they never got all the bugs out of PowerPC Opera before it was discontinued. --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 5 18:43:36 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 19:43:36 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <515F61A8.5040009@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/04/13 1:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/5/13 8:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might >> expect. > > eBay, in particular. A 2GHz dual G5 is now too slow to be useful to > browse a > category even with TenFourFox due to Javascript bloat. I get through a > page or > two and give up in disgust. Odd, I seem to manage okay on this dual 2.5 with Tenfourfox - ebay, quora, twitter, etc. --Toby From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 5 18:59:18 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <04DC0841-22C4-4A17-9DCF-05A443D7C41F@shiresoft.com> References: <515F5208.1000905@neurotica.com> <04DC0841-22C4-4A17-9DCF-05A443D7C41F@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1365206358.77096.YahooMailNeo@web141406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >From: Guy Sotomayor >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Sent: Friday, April 5, 2013 7:30 PM >Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 ? >I just checked the field maintenance manual for the 11/780.? I was correct in my >earlier statement in that 3-phase is supplied for load balancing.? The power controller >is 3-phase but it splits out the individual phases.? It splits the 3 phases into 4.? Phase 1 >has switched and unswitched outlets.? Phases 2 & 3 are both switched.? Blowers 1 & 3 >are on switched Phase 3.? Blower 2 is on unswitched Phase 1. >In more detail here are the connections (not just the blowers): >Phase1 Unswitched: >1. Blower #2 >2. H7111 (T.O.D.) >3. PS #4 (MS780) >4. H7112 (memory battery backup) >Phase 1 Switched: >1. 11/03 >2. RX01 >Phase 2 Switched: >1. PS #3 (CPU) >2. PS #1 (FP780) >3. RX01 fan >4. A.F. Sensor Box >Phase 3 Switched: >1. PS #2 (CPU) >2. Blower #1 >3. Blower #3 >4. PS #5 (RH780) This is what I am seeing on the Eng drawings as well. It has a nice visual breakout of how everything is connected including the blowers. This is good news. Brian. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 5 19:00:24 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 17:00:24 -0700 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> Message-ID: <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> On 04/05/2013 03:22 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > It's the new improved "dynamic search algorithm". Go back and do > the query again from the same machine. The results won't be the same. > "Recent" updates that Google turned on that supposedly look at the > totality of your (and apparently other's) recent internet activity to > post and rank results... More to the point, even when I put a term in quotes, Google will still insist on grabbing things "like" it, often ahead of verbatim results. This really throws a monkey wrench into trying to come up with precise searches. Perhaps an expanded notation is needed as in "apple:fruit" to sift out the edible kind. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 19:06:47 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 20:06:47 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <20130405143652.U19354@shell.lmi.net> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> <20130405143652.U19354@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <16400E88-AC40-4130-96BD-C54C2BAE37B3@gmail.com> On Apr 5, 2013, at 17:37, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 5 Apr 2013, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> There is a perfectly valid reason for such horrendous design: Pandering to >> the kiddies with far too much of mommy and daddy's money and with the >> average intelligence of a pistachio. > > That is an insult to pistachios. Yeah, be nice to pistachios! They're perfectly smart, they're just a little nuts. - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 19:25:57 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 01:25:57 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 5 April 2013 22:58, Ian King wrote: > > Popular press puffery. There are people looking seriously at these issues, rather than running around like Chicken Little. Oh, except the Microsoft problem: my daughter's homework is often sent to her in the latest version, which can't be read by any version that runs on a PPC-based Mac. LibreOffice 4 - the latest version - runs on Mac OS X 10.4 or higher on a PowerPC Mac with >=512MB of RAM. Also, you can get the official MS "Open XML" filters as a free download, which will enable MS Office 2004 to import 2007/2010 .docx/.xlsx/.pptx files: http://gigaom.com/2008/09/03/open-docx-with-office-2004/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 19:27:21 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 01:27:21 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 6 April 2013 01:25, Liam Proven wrote: > > LibreOffice 4 - the latest version - runs on Mac OS X 10.4 or higher > on a PowerPC Mac with >=512MB of RAM. Oops, sorry, I forgot the download link: http://www.libreoffice.org/download/?type=mac-ppc&lang=en-GB&version=4.0.2 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From xmechanic at landcomp.net Fri Apr 5 19:33:32 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 18:33:32 -0600 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F61A8.5040009@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> <515F61A8.5040009@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <515F6D5C.5020907@landcomp.net> On 4/5/13 5:43 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 05/04/13 1:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 4/5/13 8:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might >>> expect. >> >> eBay, in particular. A 2GHz dual G5 is now too slow to be useful to >> browse a >> category even with TenFourFox due to Javascript bloat. I get through a >> page or >> two and give up in disgust. > > Odd, I seem to manage okay on this dual 2.5 with Tenfourfox - ebay, > quora, twitter, etc. > > --Toby > > You could always reload it with PPC Linux if you want to 'modernize' it, but then again the G5's were major power hogs for the amount of work you could get out of them. Up to 160 watts at idle and 950 watts or more running full bore for the Quad. I guess it depends how much you like to pay per month on your electric bill. :) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 5 19:52:52 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 20:52:52 -0400 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F6D5C.5020907@landcomp.net> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> <515F61A8.5040009@telegraphics.com.au> <515F6D5C.5020907@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <515F71E4.6020709@neurotica.com> On 04/05/2013 08:33 PM, Dave Land wrote: > You could always reload it with PPC Linux if you want to 'modernize' it, but > then again the G5's were major power hogs for the amount of work you could > get out of them. Up to 160 watts at idle and 950 watts or more running full > bore for the Quad. I guess it depends how much you like to pay per month on > your electric bill. :) Oh good heavens. That's nothin'. But in terms of bang for the watt, it really isn't all that easy to beat a G5. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 5 20:01:04 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 18:01:04 -0700 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <515EC6AD.7030209@verizon.net> References: <515EC6AD.7030209@verizon.net> Message-ID: <515F73D0.5060701@sydex.com> The loos of the *physical* media is not so much troubling as is the loss of web content. As companies go out of business the content evaporates. The Wayback Machine helps a bit, bot think of all of the ftp content (which isn't preserved by archive.org) that has just plain evaporated. I would guess that the volume of this might even be larger now than the stuff archived on old magtape. Of all the bookmarks I have in my browser accumulated over the last 7 or 8 years, at least half of them are dead links. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Apr 5 20:01:49 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 21:01:49 -0400 Subject: LinuxPPC - Re: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <515F6D5C.5020907@landcomp.net> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F0862.80804@bitsavers.org> <515F61A8.5040009@telegraphics.com.au> <515F6D5C.5020907@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <515F73FD.2030004@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/04/13 8:33 PM, Dave Land wrote: > On 4/5/13 5:43 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 05/04/13 1:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> On 4/5/13 8:22 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>>> But then again, the modern Web has higher CPU demands than you might >>>> expect. >>> >>> eBay, in particular. A 2GHz dual G5 is now too slow to be useful to >>> browse a >>> category even with TenFourFox due to Javascript bloat. I get through a >>> page or >>> two and give up in disgust. >> >> Odd, I seem to manage okay on this dual 2.5 with Tenfourfox - ebay, >> quora, twitter, etc. >> >> --Toby >> >> > You could always reload it with PPC Linux if you want to 'modernize' it, That's what I used circa 2001, on PPC604. Pretty zippy, too. --Toby > but then again the G5's were major power hogs for the amount of work you > could get out of them. Up to 160 watts at idle and 950 watts or more > running full bore for the Quad. I guess it depends how much you like to > pay per month on your electric bill. :) > From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 5 20:18:20 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 20:18:20 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515F77DC.8090304@pico-systems.com> Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:06:58 -0400 From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 Message-ID: <515F2EE2.6020902 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 04/05/2013 03:37 PM, Brian Roth wrote: > > > > Agreed. The one place I am going to start is with the power supplies. I plan on running this on > > single phase at least initially. I don't see anything in there that needs 3 phase. > The blowers? Nope, the entire machine is built from single-phase components. The power supplies even have wall plugs on them, and are powered through what are essentially the female end of extension cords. (I think they run off 208 V, but maybe they were running L-N off of 120 V.) The blowers were 208/230 V single-phase motors, you could hear the centrifugal switches drop back in when you shut the machine off. The power distribution wiring would have to be hacked for single-phase operation, hopefully the power supplies can be run off 240 V without harm. The TU77 may be a problem, I vaguely recall that may have a 3-phase motor for the vacuum blower/air bearing pump. Today, I'd get a VFD and run the motor (ONLY) off synthetic 3-phase. The RM07 also was 3-phase, I think all the smaller VAX 780 disks were single-phase. The RM07 was a total monstrosity from Burroughs, I hope you don't have one of those. We went through a lot of pain as one of the early adopters of that, but in the end it was a high performance drive and fairly reliable. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 5 20:27:46 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 20:27:46 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <515F7A12.7000301@pico-systems.com> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:28:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Roth I did a quick look at the Eng drawings and while the power controller is 3 phase it looks like the fans are single phase. Not sure whats going on inside the power controller yet. I'll be tearing into this in a couple of weeks so if anyone has experience with the conversion, speak out. I know its been done. The power controller is REALLY simple, very much like the PDP-11 EPO controllers, just bigger. So, there is a voltage sent out on a 3-wire cable, and if you break two of the wires at the end of the chain, all units power off. The other wire powers up all units on the string. Just a little unregulated power supply and some relays. I think there's an airflow sensor in the blower plenums that breaks the EPO chain if a blower stops. Jon From wilson at dbit.com Fri Apr 5 20:38:40 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 21:38:40 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F77DC.8090304@pico-systems.com> References: <515F77DC.8090304@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20130406013840.GA7095@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Apr 05, 2013 at 08:18:20PM -0500, Jon Elson wrote: >The TU77 may be a problem, I vaguely recall that may have a 3-phase >motor for the vacuum blower/air bearing pump. Luckily no, it's just 220VAC with *insane* inrush current. >The RM07 also was 3-phase, I think all the smaller VAX 780 >disks were single-phase. RM02/03/05/80 are definitely single-phase. RP07 is 3-phase as you say, as is RP06 and I assume therefore RP05. Dunno about RP04. >The RM07 was a total monstrosity >from Burroughs, I hope you don't have one of those. We went through >a lot of pain as one of the early adopters of that, but in the >end it was a high performance drive and fairly reliable. I've heard you have to pop the RP07's top whenever it's running or it overheats... otherwise good though, and huge for the time. John Wilson D Bit From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 20:58:25 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 21:58:25 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F77DC.8090304@pico-systems.com> References: <515F77DC.8090304@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > The TU77 may be a problem, I vaguely recall that may have a 3-phase > motor for the vacuum blower/air bearing pump. I can't say for a TU77, but the TU78 is 220V. > The RM07 also was 3-phase, I think all the smaller VAX 780 > disks were single-phase. The RM07 was a total monstrosity > from Burroughs, I hope you don't have one of those. We went through > a lot of pain as one of the early adopters of that, but in the > end it was a high performance drive and fairly reliable. I don't remember the RM07. I remember the RM05 (CDC 9766) and the RP07, which I _thought_ was a 100% DEC design (that resembled a white washing machine with no access panels), but I could be wrong about that. -ethan > > Jon > From evan at snarc.net Fri Apr 5 21:10:58 2013 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 22:10:58 -0400 Subject: Apple //e Platinum wanted Message-ID: <515F8432.704@snarc.net> Does anyone have a good-condition, second-generation (working + non-yellowed) //e Platinum they'd consider selling to me? There are a few Platinums on eBay but I am leery of going that route. (Platinum is the model with the numeric keypad. There were two versions: the first gen in standard Apple II beige, and the second gen in a gray color -- that's the one I want.) From brain at jbrain.com Fri Apr 5 21:53:17 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 21:53:17 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET 6540 ROMs? In-Reply-To: References: <515E7A6C.5040401@gmail.com> <515F35B8.7020006@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <515F8E1D.8080602@jbrain.com> On 4/5/2013 4:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Sounds cool -- where is it on the store? I found the 2364 adapters, but > I'm not seeing anything for 6540s... http://store.go4retro.com/6540-adapter/ I took them out pending the new shipment of boards, but I put them back in with qty 1 if you're interested. Jim From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 22:56:33 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 20:56:33 -0700 Subject: Commodore PET 6540 ROMs? In-Reply-To: <515F8E1D.8080602@jbrain.com> References: <515E7A6C.5040401@gmail.com> <515F35B8.7020006@jbrain.com> <515F8E1D.8080602@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <515F9CF1.8010109@gmail.com> On 4/5/2013 7:53 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 4/5/2013 4:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Sounds cool -- where is it on the store? I found the 2364 adapters, but >> I'm not seeing anything for 6540s... > http://store.go4retro.com/6540-adapter/ > > I took them out pending the new shipment of boards, but I put them > back in with qty 1 if you're interested. > > Jim > Awesome. Ordered one(plus a ZoomFloppy board, since I've wanted one for awhile...). Thanks! Josh From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 01:33:36 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 06:33:36 +0000 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <515F73D0.5060701@sydex.com> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 06/04/2013 02:01:04 Subject: Re: pdp-11/23 config >The loos of the *physical* media is not so much troubling as is the >loss of web content. As companies go out of business the content >evaporates. The Wayback Machine helps a bit, bot think of all of the >ftp content (which isn't preserved by archive.org) that has just plain >evaporated. I note from the BBC News that UK Libraries and Museums are to start archiving web content:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-22028738 > >I would guess that the volume of this might even be larger now than the >stuff archived on old magtape. > >Of all the bookmarks I have in my browser accumulated over the last 7 >or 8 years, at least half of them are dead links. > >--Chuck > Dave G4UGM From pbirkel at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 09:16:01 2013 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 10:16:01 -0400 Subject: DEC M7522 (RUX50) Unibus Quad-slot RX50 Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Documentation is "half" the battle; many thanks .. if you find any :->. Darn about the spares ... On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Paul Birkel wrote: > > I've been trying to track down online documentation (manual, engineering > > drawings) for this Quad Unibus card, a controller for the RX50. No luck > at > > all. Nada :-<. Just some references in RSX/RSTS/Ultrix marketing > > documents. > > > > Does anyone have, or know where such documentation can be found? > > I may have documentation. I am shifting a lot of items this month. If I > run across it, I will pull it. > > > Also, does anyone have (or knows someone who has) a spare/loose M7522 > that > > they'd be willing to part with? > > I just have the one (we got it at my former job for making software > distrubution floppies on our 11/750 for our MicroVAX customers, > back when such things were new). No spares. Sorry. > > -ethan > From christopher1400 at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 16:54:47 2013 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:54:47 -0700 Subject: Browsers are the stumbling point (was Re: G5s now dumpster fruit, etc.) In-Reply-To: <20130405143652.U19354@shell.lmi.net> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8ACE7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <515F17DA.4060307@neurotica.com> <031c01ce3232$4c3cf520$e4b6df60$@com> <20130405143652.U19354@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: This here is actually quite relevant to my experience with trying to browse the web last night on a 20" iMac G5 (2.1 GHz, 1.5 gigs ram, Leopard), as it was dreadfully slow with Ten Four Fox, and Safari was too old to be worth bothering with. I guess this is why I found the iMac on the side of the road, it's a bit too slow to be useful for anything other than using the old Wacom tablet with Photoshop CS3 (and it's slow at that). From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 19:02:08 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 20:02:08 -0400 Subject: Need PDP-9 Paper Tapes Message-ID: The RICM has the processor of their PDP-9 working fairly well. We have most of the diags for the processor on paper tape. We will make working copies of the tapes and also make images to send to Bitsavers. We have the diag documentation for the TC59/TU20, but we do not have the paper tapes. It would be possible to enter the source from the listing and assemble it using Simh, but that would be a bit of work. I know that it is probably wishful thinking, but does anyone have paper tapes of the TC59/TU20 diags? Paper tapes of the TC02/TU55 diags would be nice to have too. We would eventually like to get an OS running on the system. It looks like the ADSS Input/Output Monitor will run on our configuration, and maybe even the Keyboard Monitor. Does anyone have paper tapes for ADSS or any other monitor that would run on this system? Details of the paper tapes and manuals that we have are at the bottom of this page: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9 -- Michael Thompson From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Apr 6 06:27:32 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 00:27:32 +1300 Subject: My IBM 5160 on YouTube Message-ID: My IBM XT captured on YouTube (with a bit of Checkit, PC Tools and Zork 2 thrown in). http://youtu.be/luUPvzx-XWU From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Sat Apr 6 08:00:06 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 14:00:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment Message-ID: <1365253206.48217.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hi everybody, I had a look through my tapes and found one from Control Data being labeled "Total Service Tape". Does anybody know, if this tape also serves as an alignment tape? I couldn't find any information about that on the Net so far. I've been trying to resurrect one of my Fujitsu M2442AC tape drives. Even with heads cleaned,it fails the diagnostics when it comes to writing and reading a tape. It turned out that the drive head being held by a plastic plate was loose due to the plastic plate being broken. I tried to glue the plastic together, mounted the head back into its position, but the drive diagnostics still fails (error: F300 ). Azimuth-adjusting the head after remouting obviously needs an alignment tape. Having quite a collection of reel tape drives, I thought it would in any way make sense to have such a tape for head adjustment procedures, but they some to have become pretty rare these days (at least for 9-track 1/2" drives). Substituting these special tapes by any other tricks or ways seems not to come close to the alignment precision obtained wich alignment tapes. Thanks for any help in advance ! Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 09:32:48 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 16:32:48 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 1:10, William Donzelli wrote: > Apparently these people have forgotten that the mainframe people > figured all this stuff out 40-some years ago. Now they only need to figure out how to keep the mainframe itself alive... - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 09:34:52 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 16:34:52 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5160328C.5050201@xs4all.nl> On 5-apr-2013 19:56, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > And interesting (and seemingly straight-forward) article about > issues we face & discussed: > > Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving > Mountains of unreadable obsolete magnetic tapes! > By Chris Mellor > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/03/archive_technology_problem/ Interesting article, but it's really quite simple: You are supposed to spend dough, perpetually so. That's the name of the game. There is no good explanation why, say, Ultrium LTO tapes have only a certain amount of backward compatibility. (I mean, I can somewhat understand it of 4 mm versus 8 mm DDS/DAT tapes, but LTO...?) - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 09:40:28 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 10:40:28 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_?= =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2013, at 10:32 AM, MG wrote: > On 6-apr-2013 1:10, William Donzelli wrote: >> Apparently these people have forgotten that the mainframe people >> figured all this stuff out 40-some years ago. > > Now they only need to figure out how to keep the mainframe itself > alive... They seem to be doing ok. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 11:00:24 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 12:00:24 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > Now they only need to figure out how to keep the mainframe itself > alive... Their impending death has slowed down to a snail's pace. There is speculation that the amount of sites moving away from the mainframes and the number of new mainframe installations is about even, but IBM is very secretive about real numbers. It is too bad that the ultra-conservative mainframe types will not loosen their ties enough to get blood to their brains and listen to the Unix people, and that the cocky Unix people will not shut up about how great Unix is and listen to what mainframe people have to offer. Oil and water. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 11:28:10 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 12:28:10 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5160328C.5050201@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <5160328C.5050201@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51604D1A.10107@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 10:34 AM, MG wrote: >> And interesting (and seemingly straight-forward) article about >> issues we face & discussed: >> >> Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving >> Mountains of unreadable obsolete magnetic tapes! >> By Chris Mellor >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/03/archive_technology_problem/ > > Interesting article, but it's really quite simple: You are supposed > to spend dough, perpetually so. That's the name of the game. > > There is no good explanation why, say, Ultrium LTO tapes have only > a certain amount of backward compatibility. (I mean, I can somewhat > understand it of 4 mm versus 8 mm DDS/DAT tapes, but LTO...?) SUITS! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sat Apr 6 11:34:41 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 18:34:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) Message-ID: allison wrote: > Look uo the backplan to find out its configuration. >From my initial posting: > > It is the BA11 variety and contains a H9273 backplane, which as far as I could find out is QQ-CD Am I missing something here? > Also read the fine manual for the quad width 11/23 you will find there > are jumpers/switches for use in AB/CD backplanes. Most quad width cards also conform to that. Also from my initial posting: > > The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured > > for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another > > environment to avoid shorting signals together) Am I missing something here? > CD lines are needed for RL11 controller (two board RL01/02 controller). Ah, thanks. Alas I've already been promised the single board variety of that option. > And if all else fails you can replace the backplane with one that is > AB/AB as I've done that many times. Thereby sacrificing the option of integrating any CD-dependent boards I might happen across in the future. Best idea I could think of until now would be a mixed (Q/CD - Q/Q) layout backplane, but I do not know whether these even exist in the required 9-slot form factor. Anyway, I think I'll treat the backplane as a given constant right now (except from probably expanding it to Q-22, see below) and look for the "right" boards to populate it. David Riley wrote: > The H9273 is perfectly compatible with an 11/23 CPU; there > is a jumper you can set for 18-bit use. Obviously, though, > turning it into a 22-bit backplane is preferable. > Fortunately, that's pretty easy. Meh...I've been hearing that I might run into problems with some other processors (LSI-11(/2), very early KDF11-A versions), should I ever need to use the backplane as a test platform for one of those in the future. Is that problem the one simply worked around with some insulating tape over the BDAL18:21 connector pads? > > The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured > > for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another > > environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful" use of the CD lanes. > Correct. The Qbus PDP-11s only used the CD lane for PMI > (or custom logic, if you had that). Sounds interesting, could you elaborate? > I'd get the M8189 if you > can, because it saves you the hassle of finding boot ROM > and serial cards for the console. Good, as it seems someone found one of these for me. > > What are these intended for anyway (I was thinking of some sort of PMI predecessor, probably > > wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine? > > For an 11/23, those lanes will just go unused. It's not > so bad, really; you have to try pretty hard to fill up 9 > slots. I'd thought so; perhaps I'll happen across some esoteric cards that use them, or I'll hack something custom in there. > If it's in > a box labelled 11/23, though, check to make sure someone > hasn't already performed the modification. OK, thanks! Arno From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 12:59:56 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 13:59:56 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > David Riley wrote: >> The H9273 is perfectly compatible with an 11/23 CPU; there >> is a jumper you can set for 18-bit use. Obviously, though, >> turning it into a 22-bit backplane is preferable. >> Fortunately, that's pretty easy. > > Meh...I've been hearing that I might run into problems with some other processors (LSI-11(/2), very early KDF11-A versions), should I ever need to use the backplane as a test platform for one of those in the future. Is that problem the one simply worked around with some insulating tape over the BDAL18:21 connector pads? Well, you *could* work around it that way. I guess Kapton would probably be a good bet. You're very unlikely to be using early LSI-11 boards unless you're a true masochist, IMO, but I wouldn't call it impossible. The issue is that the very early boards used those as test lines, which has the tendency to cause problems with other 22-bit devices. Be aware that if you're using the system as 18-bit, you'll need to make sure that your peripheral cards are jumpered to 18-bit if necessary (boards that use DMA often need to know). The 22-bit conversion is also easy to undo, assuming you're handy with a soldering iron; you're just bussing 4 lines straight down the backplane. For me, undoing that would be about as easy as looking up which pins to cover and then covering them with tape, though I guess it would involve removing the backplane from the chassis. It's a shame that the H9273 doesn't have wire-wrap stakes coming out the back like the H9270 does, because that makes the conversion much easier to perform and to reverse. >> > The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured >> > for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another >> > environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful" use of the CD lanes. > >> Correct. The Qbus PDP-11s only used the CD lane for PMI >> (or custom logic, if you had that). > Sounds interesting, could you elaborate? The only existing application I know of (besides PMI) is the RL11 board set. There were probably quite a few other board sets that used the CD lines for inter-board communication; the slots are routed pin-to-pin for the most part, but slot-to-slot instead of bussed straight through, so as long as you have the cards in the right order, they won't be talking to other ones in the backplane. For example, the MSV11-J boards (PMI memory) have the top pins connected straight through to the bottom on the card, but the KDJ11-B only has the top fingers populated, so the PMI bus terminates at the card. You could put an RL11 board set directly below it with no negative consequences, for example. >> > What are these intended for anyway (I was thinking of some sort of PMI predecessor, probably >> > wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine? >> >> For an 11/23, those lanes will just go unused. It's not >> so bad, really; you have to try pretty hard to fill up 9 >> slots. > I'd thought so; perhaps I'll happen across some esoteric cards that use them, or I'll hack something custom in there. Pretty much. There are plenty of quad-height boards that use the CD slots for power but nothing else. >> If it's in >> a box labelled 11/23, though, check to make sure someone >> hasn't already performed the modification. > OK, thanks! I wouldn't swear to the fact that there weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while 11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs). - Dave From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 13:22:35 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 20:22:35 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 16:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > They seem to be doing ok. Not according to the Register. Okay, fair is fair, I think IBM and some other (favorable) sources may claim otherwise. I keep on stumbling over mainframes everywhere, they're just so damn common. Everybody is also talking about them in schools, businesses and so forth. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 13:24:52 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 20:24:52 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 18:00, William Donzelli wrote: > Their impending death has slowed down to a snail's pace. There is > speculation that the amount of sites moving away from the mainframes > and the number of new mainframe installations is about even, but IBM > is very secretive about real numbers. At least HP doesn't even bother to lie about the (real) numbers of the VMS and HP-UX install base, they just don't care. So, I guess that does still make IBM a bit better... > It is too bad that the ultra-conservative mainframe types will not > loosen their ties enough to get blood to their brains and listen to > the Unix people, and that the cocky Unix people will not shut up about > how great Unix is and listen to what mainframe people have to offer. > Oil and water. It doesn't help much either that there are no --- absolutely zero, null, nothing, nada --- remote access "z" systems. Only "i" (an AS/400), that I can think of, but that's not a true mainframe; quasi-mainframe at best? - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 13:36:53 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 14:36:53 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 02:24 PM, MG wrote: >> It is too bad that the ultra-conservative mainframe types will not >> loosen their ties enough to get blood to their brains and listen to >> the Unix people, and that the cocky Unix people will not shut up about >> how great Unix is and listen to what mainframe people have to offer. >> Oil and water. > > It doesn't help much either that there are no --- absolutely zero, > null, nothing, nada --- remote access "z" systems. Do you mean *public* remote access? Since most of the "z" systems out there are doing stuff like running the world's financial system, I don't think you'll see much of that. > Only "i" (an > AS/400), that I can think of, but that's not a true mainframe; > quasi-mainframe at best? "Mini". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 13:41:33 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 14:41:33 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51606C5D.9020204@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 02:22 PM, MG wrote: >> They seem to be doing ok. > > Not according to the Register. Okay, fair is fair, I think IBM > and some other (favorable) sources may claim otherwise. While I generally like The Register, they're reporting on things that are seen out in the wild everywhere, things that are trendy, and things that are used to deliver Java web services. Mainframes are not trendy...they just keep the world going 'round. While some companies (like web hosting companies) loudly tout what they run, most banks, hospitals, etc generally do not. If they were no longer profitable, or in demand, they'd no longer be available. Most of the people who have been proclaiming "mainframes are dead!" for the past, oh THIRTY YEARS are the ones selling other types of systems. I, at least, have been around this particular block before...so have many of the other old-timers on this list. > I keep on stumbling over mainframes everywhere, they're just so > damn common. Everybody is also talking about them in schools, > businesses and so forth. Nobody likes a smartass. Just FYI. But either way, that's the case in my town. There's more mainframe work here than in any other technical business. I actually thought of moving into that line of work just for job availability, but it turns out I didn't need to because I found other work (which was more "up my alley", so to speak) very quickly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 14:08:14 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 15:08:14 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_?= =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> On Apr 6, 2013, at 14:36, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/06/2013 02:24 PM, MG wrote: >>> It is too bad that the ultra-conservative mainframe types will not >>> loosen their ties enough to get blood to their brains and listen to >>> the Unix people, and that the cocky Unix people will not shut up about >>> how great Unix is and listen to what mainframe people have to offer. >>> Oil and water. >> >> It doesn't help much either that there are no --- absolutely zero, >> null, nothing, nada --- remote access "z" systems. > > Do you mean *public* remote access? Since most of the "z" systems out > there are doing stuff like running the world's financial system, I don't > think you'll see much of that. Are there any public-access IBM systems (360, 370, or even successors like z) that are friendly to hobbyists in a similar vein to LCM's PDP-10s and 11/780-5? I suspect it wouldn't make a lot of sense since a lot of them are batch systems with little interactivity, but I'd welcome the chance to play with a system. I guess there's always Hercules, and I hear there are pre-built images for that. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 14:17:27 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 15:17:27 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 03:08 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>> It is too bad that the ultra-conservative mainframe types will not >>>> loosen their ties enough to get blood to their brains and listen to >>>> the Unix people, and that the cocky Unix people will not shut up about >>>> how great Unix is and listen to what mainframe people have to offer. >>>> Oil and water. >>> >>> It doesn't help much either that there are no --- absolutely zero, >>> null, nothing, nada --- remote access "z" systems. >> >> Do you mean *public* remote access? Since most of the "z" systems out >> there are doing stuff like running the world's financial system, I don't >> think you'll see much of that. > > Are there any public-access IBM systems (360, 370, or > even successors like z) that are friendly to hobbyists in a > similar vein to LCM's PDP-10s and 11/780-5? I suspect > it wouldn't make a lot of sense since a lot of them are batch > systems with little interactivity, but I'd welcome the > chance to play with a system. Actually they're nearly all interactive. Most of the "heavy lifting" (processing bank transactions) all happens in batch, as it should, but TSO sessions are how development, monitoring, data entry, etc gets done. > I guess there's always > Hercules, and I hear there are pre-built images for that. There are. I run several instances of that, and I had once thought of setting up a system for people to use, but it's so easy to run that I didn't see much point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 14:40:54 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 21:40:54 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 20:36, Dave McGuire wrote: > Do you mean *public* remote access? Yes, I did indeed mean that (but didn't realize I had to spell it out). > Since most of the "z" systems out there are doing stuff like > running the world's financial system, I don't think you'll see > much of that. The VMS, HP-UX, AIX, etc. advocates (and 'artists') will claim the same about their equally obscure/niche platforms. /Here/, an article from a few months back. Have a read, I'd say... > "Mini". Thanks for the laugh. Seriously though, I hate to break it to you, but these aren't the 1950~'70s anymore. Nobody cares for those terms anymore, certainly not those getting out of the education mills now (who almost ~99% likely haven't heard of "z" or even "i" either, certainly not through their educational exposure). A true mini nowadays is one of those ITX board systems or even a 'smart phone', if you will. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 14:45:47 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 21:45:47 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 21:17, Dave McGuire wrote: > Actually they're nearly all interactive. Most of the "heavy lifting" > (processing bank transactions) all happens in batch, as it should, but > TSO sessions are how development, monitoring, data entry, etc gets done. From what I've read and heard, that has been largely marginalized and replaced with generic Windows-hosted client stuff nowadays with fancy 'GUI' tools. > There are. Where? Also, are you allowed to by IBM? Wouldn't you be required to buy a license (and what-not else)? I mean, why else does IBM charge a hefty sum for very restricted remote access to an IBM "z"...? > I run several instances of that, and I had once thought of setting > up a system for people to use, but it's so easy to run that I didn't > see much point. Maybe because you'd get IBM's lawyers after you, that's why you haven't. The fact that you even say you run it at home probably isn't too wise, especially if IBM read about it... As far as I'm aware, it's not exactly 'allowed' to run (e.g.) "z" 'at home', not even for non-commercial/private reasons and end- uses/purposes. - MG From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 14:53:06 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 15:53:06 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6 April 2013 13:59, David Riley wrote: > I wouldn't swear to the fact that there weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit > systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while > 11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better > than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to > do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs). > > > I don't know anything about how DEC sold their machines, but I do believe they did sell the 11/23 as an 18-bit system (even though the KDF11A is very much capable of 22-bit), as I remember there is a "PDP-11/23" version of the BA11-N box (with H9273-A, the BA11-N always has the H9273-A; except special OEM boxes that might just have an H9275-A -- or a hobbyist (or company that was too cheap/clever to get a 23+ box) who has upgraded their BA11-N to an H9275-A); as well as a "PDP-11/03L" version of the BA11-N box (the difference between the two being only the front plate, which on the 11/03-L version is all white, including the "background" of the logotype, while the 11/23 has the "background" of the logo painted black (to make it more visible)). The 11/23+ comes in the BA11-S box, which while also a 9-slot long backplane, is the H9276-A backplane which is by default a Q22/CD backplane; I don't think the H9275-A can fit into a BA11-S box, though. I really want to get my hands on a PDP-11/03L version of the BA11-N box; I'm still trying to replace my "lost" PDP-11 system, and at present all I've got is a CPU and an H9275-A backplane. (I like the "all white" front plate, looks nicer in my opinion.) Nevermind that though, I'm going astray of the original topic. Cheers, Christian From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 14:54:51 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 15:54:51 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> Ok Sparky, whatever you say. -Dave On 04/06/2013 03:40 PM, MG wrote: > On 6-apr-2013 20:36, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Do you mean *public* remote access? > > Yes, I did indeed mean that (but didn't realize I had to spell it > out). > > >> Since most of the "z" systems out there are doing stuff like >> running the world's financial system, I don't think you'll see >> much of that. > > The VMS, HP-UX, AIX, etc. advocates (and 'artists') will claim > the same about their equally obscure/niche platforms. > > /Here/, an article from a few months back. Have a read, I'd say... > > > >> "Mini". > > Thanks for the laugh. Seriously though, I hate to break it to you, > but these aren't the 1950~'70s anymore. Nobody cares for those > terms anymore, certainly not those getting out of the education > mills now (who almost ~99% likely haven't heard of "z" or even > "i" either, certainly not through their educational exposure). > > A true mini nowadays is one of those ITX board systems or even a > 'smart phone', if you will. > > - MG -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 14:54:57 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 21:54:57 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51606C5D.9020204@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> <51606C5D.9020204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51607D91.3020205@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 20:41, Dave McGuire wrote: > While I generally like The Register, they're reporting on things that are > seen out in the wild everywhere, things that are trendy, and things that are > used to deliver Java web services. Mainframes are not trendy...they just > keep the world going 'round. While some companies (like web hosting > companies) loudly tout what they run, most banks, hospitals, etc generally > do not. VMS gets the same treatment, but probably deservedly so, eh? It's just the poor, poor, mainframes that are 'getting it'. Very unfair indeed. > If they were no longer profitable, or in demand, they'd no longer be > available. If they were so incredibly profitable, why isn't IBM releasing loads of new "z" things and trying to get one into every major education mill; you know, to make sure that there will be enough know-how to keep these /very profitable/ things up and running...? > Most of the people who have been proclaiming "mainframes are dead!" > for the past, oh THIRTY YEARS are the ones selling other types of > systems. They weren't wrong though, maybe a bit early with their prediction at most. > Nobody likes a smartass. Just FYI. Touchy subject? > I actually thought ofmoving into that line of work just for job > availability, but it turnsout I didn't need to because I found other > work (which was more "up my alley", so to speak) very quickly. Okay... - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 14:58:40 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 15:58:40 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 03:45 PM, MG wrote: >> Actually they're nearly all interactive. Most of the "heavy lifting" >> (processing bank transactions) all happens in batch, as it should, but >> TSO sessions are how development, monitoring, data entry, etc gets done. > > From what I've read and heard, that has been largely marginalized and > replaced with generic Windows-hosted client stuff nowadays with fancy > 'GUI' tools. I was in a Lowe's store today (big US-based hardware store chain) and saw a very obvious TSO or CICS session running in a 3270 emulator at every customer service station at the desk. And that was just today's random data point in a very mainstream place. >> There are. > > Where? Do your own googling. You can get VM/370 and a few releases of MVS, as well as some other stuff. This is not news, even if it's news to you. > Also, are you allowed to by IBM? Yes, for certain (old) releases. This is very common, lots of people are doing it. It is not new. >> I run several instances of that, and I had once thought of setting >> up a system for people to use, but it's so easy to run that I didn't >> see much point. > > Maybe because you'd get IBM's lawyers after you, that's why you > haven't. The fact that you even say you run it at home probably > isn't too wise, especially if IBM read about it... Wrong. > As far as I'm aware, it's not exactly 'allowed' to run (e.g.) "z" > 'at home', not even for non-commercial/private reasons and end- > uses/purposes. Wrong again. One day I will learn to avoid feeding the trolls. One day. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 15:05:21 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 16:05:21 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51608001.2040601@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 12:00 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Now they only need to figure out how to keep the mainframe itself >> alive... > > Their impending death has slowed down to a snail's pace. There is > speculation that the amount of sites moving away from the mainframes > and the number of new mainframe installations is about even, but IBM > is very secretive about real numbers. > > It is too bad that the ultra-conservative mainframe types will not > loosen their ties enough to get blood to their brains and listen to > the Unix people, and that the cocky Unix people will not shut up about > how great Unix is and listen to what mainframe people have to offer. > Oil and water. This is painfully true. And it really shouldn't be, because when the two worlds combine, very cool things can happen. The strengths and weaknesses mesh almost perfectly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 15:05:26 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 22:05:26 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D8B010@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <51608006.5070109@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 0:31, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Can we just go back to VT-220 compatible terminals with ReGIS and > Tek graphics, on PDP-11s, please? That would be nice. As much as I like my VT220 (and I still use it quite frequently), in terms of true graphics, an SGI (or a modern PC, of course) is a /bit/ hard to beat nowadays... - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 15:27:14 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 16:27:14 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51607D91.3020205@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> <51606C5D.9020204@neurotica.com> <51607D91.3020205@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51608522.8090200@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 03:54 PM, MG wrote: >> While I generally like The Register, they're reporting on things that are >> seen out in the wild everywhere, things that are trendy, and things that are >> used to deliver Java web services. Mainframes are not trendy...they just >> keep the world going 'round. While some companies (like web hosting >> companies) loudly tout what they run, most banks, hospitals, etc generally >> do not. > > VMS gets the same treatment, but probably deservedly so, eh? It's just > the poor, poor, mainframes that are 'getting it'. Very unfair indeed. *sigh* Troll. > >> If they were no longer profitable, or in demand, they'd no longer be >> available. > > If they were so incredibly profitable, why isn't IBM releasing loads of > new "z" things They are. I can see you don't much keep up with the news. > and trying to get one into every major education mill; > you know, to make sure that there will be enough know-how to keep these > /very profitable/ things up and running...? Why would they? They're doing fine. The banks haven't stopped buying them, and that's who matters in that world. >> Most of the people who have been proclaiming "mainframes are dead!" >> for the past, oh THIRTY YEARS are the ones selling other types of >> systems. > > They weren't wrong though, maybe a bit early with their prediction at > most. Oh, of course. I must've missed the entire financial world's transition to PCs. It must've been sometime last week. Since IBM continues to introduce new mainframes at about the same pace that they always have, and continues to pour GIGANTIC amounts of money into their development, maybe you should go visit them and tell them about the sad state of their market, since you clearly know so much better than they do. You could probably save the company, what with all that unprofitable business they're doing. They might even make you president! >> Nobody likes a smartass. Just FYI. > > Touchy subject? Not really...I just don't like trolls. Or pricks with chips on their shoulders who make loud assertions about things that they clearly know JACK POINT SHIT about. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 15:40:43 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 22:40:43 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 21:54, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Ok Sparky, whatever you say. A bit of a (stereo-)typical response of an IBM advocate/apologist. Don't kill the messenger. All that I'm doing is stating what I've been observing. It's a plain fact that hardly anyone knows what an IBM mainframe is. I'm sure there are even people --- like those born in the 1990s and beyond --- who don't even know what IBM is. It doesn't help for IBM that they're completely invisible to most people nowadays. I'd love to try "z" sometime (or even something older, like an S/390), but IBM isn't exactly making that very easy for people like myself, now are they? VMS has the excellent "Hobbyist Program", maybe IBM should perhaps consider something similar? Although, even that has not saved VMS and it's in a terrible shape. But, more people have heard of it and had a chance to use it than "z", that's for damn sure. - MG From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 15:42:52 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 16:42:52 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51607D91.3020205@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> <51606C5D.9020204@neurotica.com> <51607D91.3020205@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > If they were so incredibly profitable, why isn't IBM releasing loads of > new "z" things and trying to get one into every major education mill; > you know, to make sure that there will be enough know-how to keep these > /very profitable/ things up and running...? That is the job of the p line of machines (aka RS/6000). Anyway, IBM has has the "Master the Mainframe" program in schools for a few years now. And one of the problems, of course, is trying to sell a mainframe to the bunches of die hard Unix fanatics that dominate the educational system. IBM could gift z machines to a bunch of schools, and after a month of so, I bet most or all would be running Linux. > They weren't wrong though, maybe a bit early with their prediction at > most. The past 25 years has shown us that mainframes are dying, but as I posted, that rate seems to have leveled off. It seems that mainframes have died as much as they are going to die. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 6 15:20:44 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 21:20:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is it? In-Reply-To: <515F54B6.4090607@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 5, 13 03:48:22 pm Message-ID: > > The problem pretty much solved yesterday (Thursday) on Erik's VCF. My > guess is that it simply takes that long for some messages to post. Is there some kind of automatic link between this mailing ist and the forum? I wasn't aware of one. I am not on the forum (AFAIK), if you (and others) expect that all of us are both on the forum and this list, I have to ask what the point is of having both. And if I am not jus the only person to be on the mailing list and not the forum, I think it's hardly suprising that there will be replies on one that are very similar to replies on the other. > > Part in question is the 74S288 bipolar PROM and used in the Do you know this for a fact, or is it just based o nthe pinout? > write-precomp portion of the 820 FDC board. Fortunately, the OP managed > to find the reference design for the WD179x. Right... Incidentalyl, one machine, I think it was the Rainbow, had a little state machine using a bipolar PROM and a bit of TTL on the FDC board. This was not anythign to do with write precompensation. Instead, it encoded a spare ynchronous serial channel into MFM. This was then sed to verify the operation of the FDC chip during the POST. NEver seen anyone else go to those lengths, -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 6 15:14:51 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 21:14:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <515F5208.1000905@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 5, 13 06:36:56 pm Message-ID: [Blowers] > I'm suggesting that they might be three-phase, as they are in many other Of course. I really myst try to keep awake... > large VAXen. (I've never worked on the innards of an 11/780 myself) As > you're likely aware, in some VAXen the ONLY three-phase component(s) is/are > the blowers. I am suprised -- that they're 3-phase, not that nothing else in the CPU is. I wouldn't have thoguth the power required for the blowers justified a 3 phase motor, in fact I would have thought a number of smaller single-phase blowers could be more reliable (If one phase fails, at least there is some airflow through the machine, OK, the PSU would be shut down if a phase fials (I would hope -- does the power controller do this?) but having some airflow remainign wouldn';t hurt. No, I don't have an 11/780 either, I don't have the space. So I hav the other classic VAX that I would have a chance at being able to repair. -- the 11/730 (OK, an 11/725 would do as well). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 6 15:42:28 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 21:42:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? Message-ID: Since my father passed away a couple of months ago I have been giving serious thoguth to making a formal wil myself (when my father was around, he would have known who to contact about various things). My first ;'choice' is to give everything to a personal friend who has been on this list. He shares enough of my interests that he will realise what is valuable and what is perhaps not so valuable. But the problem is tha said friend is about the same age as me, and it is not certainn he wil loutlive me. Of course if he passes away long before me, I can producve a new will, but it is worth putting a clause in the one I am currently writing to say what happens if he is not around. Now, as well as my classic computers there's also cmaeras, books, tools, test gear, other electronci stuff, etc. I would rather leave everything to one person/orgnaisation (rather than say 'the classic computers go to , the tools go to , etc) or worse still 'I leave my PDP11/45 system to ', etc. In the latter case if I have, say, swapped my 11/45 for an 11/790 at some point then gets nothing, even though it was probably my intention that he would get the 11/70. In the former case, there could be disputes as to what category certain things fall into -- is the 'Datacopy 300' (an early digital camera that needs a classic PERQ to run it) a 'classic computer peripheral' or a 'camera', for example. Does anyone have any serious suggestions for an organisation (and yes, I am considering computer museums here, no matyter what I may have said i nthe past) who would be prepared to take the lot and pass on that which was of no use to them to other organisations or enthusiasts? -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 16:07:53 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 17:07:53 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51608EA9.9050109@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 01:59 PM, David Riley wrote: > I wouldn't swear to the fact that there weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit > systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while > 11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better > than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to > do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs). Nearly all KDF11-A boards (the dual-wide version) actually do support 22-bit addressing. I believe it was etch rev "C" that added 22-bit support. I've had many KDF11s over the years; I don't think I've seen any of the non-22-bit-capable ones. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 6 16:09:38 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 17:09:38 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51608F12.7060903@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 04:40 PM, MG wrote: > On 6-apr-2013 21:54, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Ok Sparky, whatever you say. > > A bit of a (stereo-)typical response of an IBM advocate/apologist. You'd be wrong about that. I'm a UNIX guy. I'm impressed with IBM's big stuff, but that's not the world I work in. Yours is a bit of a (stereo-)typical response of either a PC salesman or YET ANOTHER mailing list troll. Just sayin'.. > Don't kill the messenger. All that I'm doing is stating what I've > been observing. It's a plain fact that hardly anyone knows what > an IBM mainframe is. I'm sure there are even people --- like those > born in the 1990s and beyond --- who don't even know what IBM is. > It doesn't help for IBM that they're completely invisible to most > people nowadays. They don't need to be "visible to people". Mainframes aren't mass-market game-playing machines. They need to be visible to BANKS, and other big-data, can't-go-down-no-matter-what industries, which is the world that they OWN. Whether you happen to like it, or agree with it, or not. > I'd love to try "z" sometime (or even something older, like an > S/390), but IBM isn't exactly making that very easy for people > like myself, now are they? Why would they? Do you think they have some need for people like yourself, who seems to think they're "dead" anyway? Note to self: Stop feeding the troll! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 16:29:33 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 17:29:33 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > A bit of a (stereo-)typical response of an IBM advocate/apologist. Please. I am the IBM apologist around here. > Don't kill the messenger. All that I'm doing is stating what I've > been observing. It's a plain fact that hardly anyone knows what > an IBM mainframe is. I'm sure there are even people --- like those > born in the 1990s and beyond --- who don't even know what IBM is. What you say is true - most people, even professionals, do not know what a mainframe was or is. The problem is that you are not observing things as they are. Much of this is due to the outlook that Unix (and Windows) people have - you assume the mainframe is dead, so you look no further, and continue assuming the mainframe is dead. The mainframe will not find you, and will not inform you. > It doesn't help for IBM that they're completely invisible to most > people nowadays. In the mainframe market, being invisible has advantages. > I'd love to try "z" sometime (or even something older, like an > S/390), but IBM isn't exactly making that very easy for people > like myself, now are they? No, and some mainframe people think this is a problem. I think it would be great to have some sort of program. However, IBM is quite protective of its IP. > VMS has the excellent "Hobbyist Program", maybe IBM should > perhaps consider something similar? Although, even that has > not saved VMS and it's in a terrible shape. But, more people > have heard of it and had a chance to use it than "z", that's > for damn sure. That would be due to the educational system. Before Unix ruled universities, VMS did (and other DECthings). -- Will From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Apr 6 16:29:21 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 17:29:21 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516093B1.70802@verizon.net> On 04/06/2013 03:53 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 6 April 2013 13:59, David Riley wrote: > >> I wouldn't swear to the fact that there weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit >> systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while >> 11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better >> than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to >> do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs). >> >> >> I don't know anything about how DEC sold their machines, but I do believe > they did sell the 11/23 as an 18-bit system (even though the KDF11A is very > much capable of 22-bit), as I remember there is a "PDP-11/23" version of > the BA11-N box (with H9273-A, the BA11-N always has the H9273-A; except > special OEM boxes that might just have an H9275-A -- or a hobbyist (or The 11/23 was sole in many variants and price points including raw boards for OEM system integrators (Bridgeport machine tool for example). the initial 11/23 was avaiable with and without MMU the non mmu part was close to using the 11/2 also 16bit. Early MMUs had apparently a bug and were limited to full performance 18bits. Later production was full 22bit. I actually have all varient of the LSI-11 (11/03), F11 (11/23) and a few J11(11/73) plus the T11 (falcon KXT11). > company that was too cheap/clever to get a 23+ box) who has upgraded their > BA11-N to an H9275-A); as well as a "PDP-11/03L" version of the BA11-N box > (the difference between the two being only the front plate, which on the > 11/03-L version is all white, including the "background" of the logotype, > while the 11/23 has the "background" of the logo painted black (to make it > more visible)). There were outside companies that built custom system s but DEC had their own groups (computer special systems CSS). Other that came to mind were Charles River Data systems where the CPU was DEC and the rest was a mix of compatible boards and other third party boards (Amperx, CRDS, CMD...) and boxes. > > The 11/23+ comes in the BA11-S box, which while also a 9-slot long > backplane, is the H9276-A backplane which is by default a Q22/CD backplane; > I don't think the H9275-A can fit into a BA11-S box, though. > Also the BA11 box is existent in not less than 5 or more flavors with varying backplanes, power supplies, and distribution panels. Many evolved over time. I have BA11S that (factory) have at least four different backplanes. I also live 10 MI from DEC and worked there for 10 years. The H9275 can be fitted, the standard connecting cables may or may not match up but can be had made easily. I've even put the backplane from the BA32 in a BA11. The form caxtor is very standardized though the interconnect for power varies with molex or terminal barrier strips being used. > > I really want to get my hands on a PDP-11/03L version of the BA11-N box; > I'm still trying to replace my "lost" PDP-11 system, and at present all > I've got is a CPU and an H9275-A backplane. (I like the "all white" front > plate, looks nicer in my opinion.) Nevermind that though, I'm going astray > of the original topic. The original had the black plate the later ones were white and part of the then "corporate cabs" in 30, 40, 50, 60 and 72 inch heights. The difference was the later racks had rounded corners to the side panels. Never mind the MINC systems in their own unique packages. It's important to know DEC sold "packaged sytems", custom systems and special contract systems and the best example of the later being those for Telephone company. Any of those found in the wild may have morphed into something very different from how it was sold. Allison From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 16:51:01 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 23:51:01 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51608522.8090200@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> <51606C5D.9020204@neurotica.com> <51607D91.3020205@xs4all.nl> <51608522.8090200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <516098C5.10704@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 22:27, Dave McGuire wrote: > *sigh* Troll. You really shouldn't get so 'emotional' over these things. > They are. I can see you don't much keep up with the news. I realize this is a retro/classic computing mailing list, but... > Why would they? They're doing fine. The banks haven't stopped > buying them, and that's who matters in that world. But the NonStop and other people tell me exactly the same. Who am I supposed to believe? Also, how would that plead well for the platform considering the recent wave of issues with the internet banking? (Especially here in Europe, which has been in the news the last few days.) > Oh, of course. I must've missed the entire financial world's > transition to PCs. It must've been sometime last week. Not (just) the financial world. But yes, you probably did... > Since IBM continues to introduce new mainframes at about the same > pace that they always have Which is probably too slow for nowadays. > and continues to pour GIGANTIC amounts of money into their development, Not enough likely. > maybe you should go visit them and tell them about the sad state of > their market The last contact I had with IBM, via e-mail, I only got a bunch of badly written e-mail messages with very serious, repeated, grammar mistakes and a quote of EUR 350/hr. for a temporary so-called 'service contract'. Yet, all I wanted to do was verify some part numbers (and IBM sure loves [ab]using those and many of them, too!) From then on, I realized I was a few million short to be heard by IBM. >> Touchy subject? > > Not really...I just don't like trolls. Or pricks with chips on their > shoulders who make loud assertions about things that they clearly know JACK > POINT SHIT about. /Fortunately/, for a minute I thought it was a touchy subject! LOL. - MG From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 6 16:59:27 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 14:59:27 -0700 Subject: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51609ABF.3010706@sydex.com> On 04/06/2013 01:20 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I am not on the forum (AFAIK), if you (and others) expect that all of > us are both on the forum and this list, I have to ask what the point is > of having both. And if I am not jus the only person to be on the mailing > list and not the forum, I think it's hardly suprising that there will be > replies on one that are very similar to replies on the other. That happens quite a bit, Tony. Erik's VCF tends to be oriented more toward personal microcomputers (IBM-style PCs, Apple, Commodore, etc.) although some more unusual stuff does show up, such as the guy reconstructing a Honeywell H200 system. > Incidentalyl, one machine, I think it was the Rainbow, had a little > state machine using a bipolar PROM and a bit of TTL on the FDC board. > This was not anythign to do with write precompensation. Instead, it > encoded a spare ynchronous serial channel into MFM. This was then sed to > verify the operation of the FDC chip during the POST. NEver seen anyone > else go to those lengths, I misspoke in my earlier post (I had something else on my mind). The subject PROM is part of a data separator circuit. It's been suggested by one poster that it might be simpler to replace the 2-chip separator with a WD9216. But that wouldn't be any fun... --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Apr 6 17:01:42 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 18:01:42 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51609B46.90907@verizon.net> On 04/06/2013 12:34 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > allison wrote: >> Look uo the backplan to find out its configuration. > >From my initial posting: >>> It is the BA11 variety and contains a H9273 backplane, which as far as I could find out is QQ-CD > Am I missing something here? > >> Also read the fine manual for the quad width 11/23 you will find there >> are jumpers/switches for use in AB/CD backplanes. Most quad width cards also conform to that. > Also from my initial posting: >>> The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured >>> for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another >>> environment to avoid shorting signals together) > Am I missing something here? Yes, some of the backplanes and the cpu board have jumpesr that need to be correct and matching. ITs why in the previous I suggested that you Read The Fine Manual. The DEC PDP11 Microcomputer handbooks are important reference s to all this and much more. Without them you are working blind. I have full sets spanning the years and it fills about 5 ft (1.5M) of linear shelf space. I consider them as more important than the hardware. While much of it is on the net I find it harder to scan for a specific item like the default jumpers for DLV11J. The books have a bit of wear from actual use. >> CD lines are needed for RL11 controller (two board RL01/02 controller). > Ah, thanks. Alas I've already been promised the single board variety of that option. > >> And if all else fails you can replace the backplane with one that is >> AB/AB as I've done that many times. > Thereby sacrificing the option of integrating any CD-dependent boards I might happen across in the future. Best idea I could think of until now would be a mixed (Q/CD - Q/Q) layout backplane, but I do not know whether these even exist in the required 9-slot form factor. Anyway, I think I'll treat the backplane as a given constant right now (except from probably expanding it to Q-22, see below) and look for the "right" boards to populate it. > > David Riley wrote: >> The H9273 is perfectly compatible with an 11/23 CPU; there >> is a jumper you can set for 18-bit use. Obviously, though, >> turning it into a 22-bit backplane is preferable. >> Fortunately, that's pretty easy. > Meh...I've been hearing that I might run into problems with some other processors (LSI-11(/2), very early KDF11-A versions), should I ever need to use the backplane as a test platform for one of those in the future. Is that problem the one simply worked around with some insulating tape over the BDAL18:21 connector pads? > >>> The M8189 is a quad-width board, but with the CD part configured >>> for a serpentine backplane (the manual mentions two jumpers to be removed when using in another >>> environment to avoid shorting signals together), so again no "meaningful" use of the CD lanes. >> Correct. The Qbus PDP-11s only used the CD lane for PMI >> (or custom logic, if you had that). > Sounds interesting, could you elaborate? PMI (private Memory interconnect) was limited to the 11/73 KDJ11 cpus or later. However the 11/23 uad has jumper that need to be correct for the backplane used and some of the backplanes also have jumpers for the different CPUs. >> I'd get the M8189 if you >> can, because it saves you the hassle of finding boot ROM >> and serial cards for the console. > Good, as it seems someone found one of these for me. yes, the dual width card only runs uODT and that means typing in a boot every time or a TEV11, MRV11 (rom card) with valid boot. The 11/23 M8189 has three flavors and the main difference is what the on board boot roms have for device boots. The early ones cannot boot MSCP devices such as the RQDXn. One way to cheat that is find a set of compatible EProms or boot RT11 from RX02 or TU58 and load a MSCP device handler and then you can boot from the MSCP. Or MOP load via a serial (or SYNC) port from a suitable host. >>> What are these intended for anyway (I was thinking of some sort of PMI predecessor, probably >>> wrong by now), and what boards do I need to take advantage of them in this machine? >> For an 11/23, those lanes will just go unused. It's not >> so bad, really; you have to try pretty hard to fill up 9 >> slots. > I'd thought so; perhaps I'll happen across some esoteric cards that use them, or I'll hack something custom in there. Most esoteric cards are odd enough that if not fully documented they may be unsafe to even use or they are part of a unique hardware system that used CD totally independent of the CPU system. I have a few like that (part of a machine control system) that require a pair of 16bit parallel IO board to communicate with the CPU and the CD bus only supplies power (it has its own interconnect over the top). FYI that was used to control a bridgeport mill (3 axis). The only common card set that depends on CD is RL11 The two board RL01/02 controller and it's only 18bit capable, if you working with 22bit system (fully populated with ram) then you need the RLV21 which is a single quad board and works in all backplanes... oh and also RL02 drives, a 40" rack minimum, plus a good back! PPS oh, I have at least two that have all slots filled! Its way to easy to plug in IO. For example RLV21 quad width, RQDX3 dual, TKQ50 (dual) TK50, RXV21 (dual) RX02 drive controller, DZV11 serial IO(quad), LPV11 parallel printer (dual), DEQNA (dual), full 4mb memory (3 quad boards). don't forget the CPU, 11/23B+ also a quad board. Thats 16 slots filled plus two grant cards total 18 making a full box. The grant cards allow for optimal board placement and are required to keep the DMA and interrupt vector chain complete. >> If it's in >> a box labelled 11/23, though, check to make sure someone >> hasn't already performed the modification. > OK, thanks! > In the end the whole Q22 this is only an issue when you exceed 256Kbytes of memory as the Q22 allowed the MMU to reach 4MB of ram. Allison From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 17:07:09 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 18:07:09 -0400 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: <1365253206.48217.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1365253206.48217.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 6 April 2013 09:00, P Gebhardt wrote: > I had a look through my tapes and found one from Control Data being > labeled "Total Service Tape". > Does anybody know, if this tape also serves as an alignment tape? I > couldn't find any information about that on the Net so far. > I'm not an expert, but isn't that just the marketing name for CDC's more higher quality tape? (It was either "Total Service Tape" or "Alpha Phi" that was high quality, or both, I don't know.) Cheers, Christian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 6 17:08:53 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 23:08:53 +0100 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013c01ce3313$55063b30$ff12b190$@ntlworld.com> Sorry to hear about your father. I remember you saying he was not well a while ago. Funnily enough, although my collection is far more modest, I have been thinking about this a little bit too just lately as I need to make a will. I think my preference would be a serious collector interested in keeping the machines running (or getting them to run where I have failed), but I am interested in any suggestions. My fear with museums is that they would just go into storage and never be seen or appreciated again. My particular dilemma is that I would like at least something to remain in the family, but I don't know whether I should encourage my children to sell or give away the rest since a fair proportion of what I have was given to me, although I have bought some items. One thing is for sure, I am going to stipulate that nothing should be just thrown away. UK-specific suggestions welcome. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 06 April 2013 21:42 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > > Since my father passed away a couple of months ago I have been giving > serious thoguth to making a formal wil myself (when my father was around, > he would have known who to contact about various things). > > My first ;'choice' is to give everything to a personal friend who has been on > this list. He shares enough of my interests that he will realise what is > valuable and what is perhaps not so valuable. But the problem is tha said > friend is about the same age as me, and it is not certainn he wil loutlive me. > Of course if he passes away long before me, I can producve a new will, but it > is worth putting a clause in the one I am currently writing to say what > happens if he is not around. > > Now, as well as my classic computers there's also cmaeras, books, tools, > test gear, other electronci stuff, etc. > > I would rather leave everything to one person/orgnaisation (rather than say > 'the classic computers go to , the tools go to , etc) or worse still 'I > leave my PDP11/45 system to ', etc. In the latter case if I have, say, > swapped my 11/45 for an 11/790 at some point then gets nothing, > even though it was probably my intention that he would get the 11/70. In > the former case, there could be disputes as to what category certain things > fall into -- is the 'Datacopy 300' (an early digital camera that needs a classic > PERQ to run it) a 'classic computer peripheral' or a 'camera', for example. > > Does anyone have any serious suggestions for an organisation (and yes, I am > considering computer museums here, no matyter what I may have said i > nthe past) who would be prepared to take the lot and pass on that which > was of no use to them to other organisations or enthusiasts? > > -tony From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Apr 6 17:10:10 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 15:10:10 -0700 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9873B1DB-5A1C-44FC-B6CD-DC5EE0C50A43@shiresoft.com> On Apr 6, 2013, at 1:42 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Since my father passed away a couple of months ago I have been giving > serious thoguth to making a formal wil myself (when my father was around, > he would have known who to contact about various things). > > My first ;'choice' is to give everything to a personal friend who has > been on this list. He shares enough of my interests that he will realise > what is valuable and what is perhaps not so valuable. But the problem is > tha said friend is about the same age as me, and it is not certainn he > wil loutlive me. Of course if he passes away long before me, I can > producve a new will, but it is worth putting a clause in the one I am > currently writing to say what happens if he is not around. > > Now, as well as my classic computers there's also cmaeras, books, tools, > test gear, other electronci stuff, etc. > > I would rather leave everything to one person/orgnaisation (rather than > say 'the classic computers go to , the tools go to , etc) or worse > still 'I leave my PDP11/45 system to ', etc. In the latter case if I > have, say, swapped my 11/45 for an 11/790 at some point then gets > nothing, even though it was probably my intention that he would get the > 11/70. In the former case, there could be disputes as to what category > certain things fall into -- is the 'Datacopy 300' (an early digital camera > that needs a classic PERQ to run it) a 'classic computer peripheral' or a > 'camera', for example. > > Does anyone have any serious suggestions for an organisation (and yes, I > am considering computer museums here, no matyter what I may have said i > nthe past) who would be prepared to take the lot and pass on that which > was of no use to them to other organisations or enthusiasts? What I have done for my will was to designate someone who will responsibly "dispose" of my collection. Here in the 'states another way to handle this is to set up a "trust" with a trustee and move all of the "assets" into the trust prior to "the end" and specify as part of the trust how the assets are to be disposed of (usually the person whose assets are going into the trust is also the trustee until "the end" at which point another trustee is specified usually as part of the will). Of course to do this properly, you should seek financial/legal advice. I'm just indicating what (in *very* general terms) what I've done. TTFN - Guy From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Apr 6 17:12:35 2013 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 15:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RL drive select plugs. What is magic about 3? Message-ID: <1365286355.33876.YahooMailClassic@web120505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I've been doing a bit with an 11/23+ setup and a few RL drives, and I've run into something odd. I currently have select plugs 0, 1 and 3. If I plug in two drives, 0 and 1, I can boot from either one, and once in RT11, I can access the other one. Easy. If I connect two drives, 0 and 3, however - I can only use drive 0. All accesses to drive 3 result in an error. Can't boot from it, can't access it from RT11. Thinking that maybe the plugs had to be in order, I connected only one drive, drive 1, and was able to boot it and use it just fine. Then, swapping the 3 plug into that single drive, can't boot from it. And I've shuffled this plug around into a couple of drives, and none of them work with it. There's no damage to the plug itself, and all the drives work otherwise. Unfortunately, I don't have enough cables to connect more than two drives at once. I also don't have a drive 2 plug to try. And yes, I have a terminator. Any ideas? -Ian From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 17:14:08 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 18:14:08 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: <51608EA9.9050109@neurotica.com> References: <51608EA9.9050109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <59F3CD69-A076-41D3-B640-E3C666201C85@gmail.com> On Apr 6, 2013, at 17:07, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/06/2013 01:59 PM, David Riley wrote: >> I wouldn't swear to the fact that there weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit >> systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while >> 11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better >> than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to >> do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs). > > Nearly all KDF11-A boards (the dual-wide version) actually do support > 22-bit addressing. I believe it was etch rev "C" that added 22-bit support. > I've had many KDF11s over the years; I don't think I've seen any of the > non-22-bit-capable ones. Oh yes, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Very few extant KDF-11s are 18-bit. All I meant to say was that I wasn't 100% sure what the distinguishing feature for the "plus" in the 11/23+ was, but I'm pretty sure it was one of those two. Most likely the KDF11-B. - Dave From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sat Apr 6 17:19:37 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 00:19:37 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) Message-ID: David Riley wrote: > Well, you *could* work around it that way. I guess Kapton would > probably be a good bet. You're very unlikely to be using early LSI-11 > boards unless you're a true masochist (...) Uhm, people have already been calling me that (in a classiccmp context!), so... > Be aware that if you're using the system as 18-bit, you'll > need to make sure that your peripheral cards are jumpered to 18-bit if > necessary (boards that use DMA often need to know). > The 22-bit conversion is also easy to undo, assuming you're handy with > a soldering iron (...) For me, undoing that would be about as easy as looking up > which pins to cover and then covering them with tape (...) Hmm, I'm just "planning for eventualities"; Basically I want to build a system that runs in a 22-bit configuration, but I'm trying to make sure I can still stick in 18-bit CPUs (or other cards) for a quick test after I do the conversion. >> (or custom logic, if you had that). > Sounds interesting, could you elaborate? > > (...) There were probably quite a few other board sets that used > the CD lines for inter-board communication (...) > (very nice description of CD interconnect principles) Definitly an option I would want to keep. Too bad there aren't any 9-slot mixed layout backplanes, but as DEC compatible backplane connectors seem to surface sometimes, so I see at least the possibility of constructing one, should the need materialize. > I wouldn't swear to the fact that there weren't 11/23s sold as 18-bit > systems; my fuzzy memory says that 11/23 might have been 18-bit while > 11/23+ would have been 22-bit. Other people doubtless know better > than me; my other recollection is that the "plus" distinction has to > do with the KDF11-B board (which has the boot ROM and SLUs). Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > I don't know anything about how DEC sold their machines, but I do believe > they did sell the 11/23 as an 18-bit system (even though the KDF11A is very > much capable of 22-bit) (...) Hmm, let's see... >From http://www.people.vcu.edu/~agnew/MVAX/9412_DECUSERVE_JNL.HTML (supposedly extracted from Micronote #5 dated 23-Apr-84): > RESTRICTED COMPATIBILITY OPTIONS: > > PROCESSORS: > > KDF11-A M8186 LSI-11/23 CPU > Prior to etch rev. C, 18-bit addressing only, > and use of BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 for purposes > other than BDAL18-21. ...so the systems using these earlier revisions, while being 11/23s by definition, would have to be based on 18-bit backplanes due to the nonstandard signals. This is also consistent with Christian's statement: > as I remember there is a "PDP-11/23" version of > the BA11-N box (with H9273-A, the BA11-N always has the H9273-A) I think I actually might be having the remains of such an early system, as it says "11/23" on the outside but holds an (18-bit) H9273 backplane inside. Alas I haven't readily found a DEC source on what actually is the PLUS in an 11/23+. Thank you so far, Arno From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 17:29:56 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 22:29:56 +0000 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> What area are you located again? Folks may be able to help know what museums are close by. -----Original Message----- From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 21:42:28 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? Since my father passed away a couple of months ago I have been giving serious thoguth to making a formal wil myself (when my father was around, he would have known who to contact about various things). My first ;'choice' is to give everything to a personal friend who has been on this list. He shares enough of my interests that he will realise what is valuable and what is perhaps not so valuable. But the problem is tha said friend is about the same age as me, and it is not certainn he wil loutlive me. Of course if he passes away long before me, I can producve a new will, but it is worth putting a clause in the one I am currently writing to say what happens if he is not around. Now, as well as my classic computers there's also cmaeras, books, tools, test gear, other electronci stuff, etc. I would rather leave everything to one person/orgnaisation (rather than say 'the classic computers go to , the tools go to , etc) or worse still 'I leave my PDP11/45 system to ', etc. In the latter case if I have, say, swapped my 11/45 for an 11/790 at some point then gets nothing, even though it was probably my intention that he would get the 11/70. In the former case, there could be disputes as to what category certain things fall into -- is the 'Datacopy 300' (an early digital camera that needs a classic PERQ to run it) a 'classic computer peripheral' or a 'camera', for example. Does anyone have any serious suggestions for an organisation (and yes, I am considering computer museums here, no matyter what I may have said i nthe past) who would be prepared to take the lot and pass on that which was of no use to them to other organisations or enthusiasts? -tony From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 17:31:52 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 00:31:52 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51608F12.7060903@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <51608F12.7060903@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5160A258.1090103@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 23:09, Dave McGuire wrote: > You'd be wrong about that. I'm a UNIX guy. I'm impressed with > IBM'sbig stuff, but that's not the world I work in. Why do you care then? You get overly emotional for something you're not even involved with. > Yours is a bit of a (stereo-)typical response of either a PC > salesmanor YET ANOTHER mailing list troll. Just sayin'.. Bringing out the big guns, calling me a "PC salesman". Is that the best you can do? Even using one of IBM's own little demon spawn, the PC, which is now undoing their sacred mainframe. It is irony at its best, isn't it? Are you capable of a normal conversation, or are you simply outgunned so fast and need to resort to weird ad hominem remarks? > They don't need to be "visible to people". People, i.e. /little people/, right? > Mainframes aren't mass-market game-playing machines. That actually reminded me of this weird 'gem'... (That I saw years ago.) > They need to be visible to BANKS, and other big-data, can't-go-down- > no-matter-what industries, which is the world that they OWN. Again, the NonStop and VMS people will claim the same. I'm (still) not impressed or convinced. In fact, Linux (particularly the Red Hat) crowd will claim the same and even more so once things like Serviceguard start to become available for it. > Whether you happen to like it, or agree with it, or not. Did you even read that Register article, or are you so convinced of IBM's propaganda? Hilariously, when I search on the 'net for "mainframe", in the top results there are denials and negations like "mainframes aren't dead" and "why the mainframe isn't dead", like also on YouTube and of IBM itself. In other words, hilarious stuff (when you have a few minutes to kill; that's all that IBM spent on that video). > Why would they? Do you think they have some need for people > likeyourself, who seems to think they're "dead" anyway? It's just /me/? They should be grateful I've even heard of it and show /some/ interest. (Which gradually degrades with every encounter with IBM zealots, like yourself.) - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 17:39:45 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 00:39:45 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 23:29, William Donzelli wrote: > What you say is true - most people, even professionals, do not know > what a mainframe was or is. The problem is that you are not observing > things as they are. Much of this is due to the outlook that Unix (and > Windows) people have - you assume the mainframe is dead, so you look > no further, and continue assuming the mainframe is dead. The mainframe > will not find you, and will not inform you. Not how capitalism typically works, though. > In the mainframe market, being invisible has advantages. In the /market/ market, it has serious disadvantages. > No, and some mainframe people think this is a problem. I think it > would be great to have some sort of program. However, IBM is quite > protective of its IP. Why and how would it harm its IP, wouldn't it expand it or give it a wider user base? Especially also considering the fact that illicit copies of "z" operating systems are reportedly floating around on the internet. Seriously, what is it with this weird 'elitism'? ('Mainframe royalty'?) > That would be due to the educational system. Before Unix ruled > universities, VMS did (and other DECthings). Not sure, but it's pretty much a Windows-dominated mess now. (With here and there also the token OS X system, although a bit pricey.) Fortunately, many education mills allow their students to purchase any laptop. But, often if it doesn't have Windows installed or running inside some virtualized environment, it can be at the student's disadvantage (as I've also experienced myself). - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 6 17:49:27 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 00:49:27 +0200 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5160A677.3000803@xs4all.nl> On 6-apr-2013 2:00, Chuck Guzis wrote: > More to the point, even when I put a term in quotes, Google will still > insist on grabbing things "like" it, often ahead of verbatim results. > This really throws a monkey wrench into trying to come up with precise > searches. That is indeed rather annoying, although it's relatively speaking nothing compared to Google's more malicious practices (involving their infamous data mining efforts). - MG From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 17:52:20 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 17:52:20 -0500 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <013c01ce3313$55063b30$ff12b190$@ntlworld.com> References: <013c01ce3313$55063b30$ff12b190$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: cameras? On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Sorry to hear about your father. I remember you saying he was not well a > while ago. > > Funnily enough, although my collection is far more modest, I have been > thinking about this a little bit too just lately as I need to make a will. > I > think my preference would be a serious collector interested in keeping the > machines running (or getting them to run where I have failed), but I am > interested in any suggestions. My fear with museums is that they would just > go into storage and never be seen or appreciated again. My particular > dilemma is that I would like at least something to remain in the family, > but > I don't know whether I should encourage my children to sell or give away > the > rest since a fair proportion of what I have was given to me, although I > have > bought some items. One thing is for sure, I am going to stipulate that > nothing should be just thrown away. > > UK-specific suggestions welcome. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: 06 April 2013 21:42 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > > > > Since my father passed away a couple of months ago I have been giving > > serious thoguth to making a formal wil myself (when my father was around, > > he would have known who to contact about various things). > > > > My first ;'choice' is to give everything to a personal friend who has > been > on > > this list. He shares enough of my interests that he will realise what is > > valuable and what is perhaps not so valuable. But the problem is tha said > > friend is about the same age as me, and it is not certainn he wil > loutlive > me. > > Of course if he passes away long before me, I can producve a new will, > but > it > > is worth putting a clause in the one I am currently writing to say what > > happens if he is not around. > > > > Now, as well as my classic computers there's also cmaeras, books, tools, > > test gear, other electronci stuff, etc. > > > > I would rather leave everything to one person/orgnaisation (rather than > say > > 'the classic computers go to , the tools go to , etc) or worse > still > 'I > > leave my PDP11/45 system to ', etc. In the latter case if I have, > say, > > swapped my 11/45 for an 11/790 at some point then gets nothing, > > even though it was probably my intention that he would get the 11/70. In > > the former case, there could be disputes as to what category certain > things > > fall into -- is the 'Datacopy 300' (an early digital camera that needs a > classic > > PERQ to run it) a 'classic computer peripheral' or a 'camera', for > example. > > > > Does anyone have any serious suggestions for an organisation (and yes, I > am > > considering computer museums here, no matyter what I may have said i > > nthe past) who would be prepared to take the lot and pass on that which > > was of no use to them to other organisations or enthusiasts? > > > > -tony > > From colineby at isallthat.com Sat Apr 6 18:10:24 2013 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 00:10:24 +0100 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: <1365253206.48217.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1365253206.48217.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <975726A4-6B0E-4EE6-BB5E-B518CAA638B6@isallthat.com> Pierre, Full disclaimer?. I seen this done once, and was merely an active spectator. There ends my expertise. Here's what we did: If you don't have a alignment tape, you might try simply creating a /dev/zero tape from a known good drive. Scope the pre-amp signal you should get a sine wave on a PE deck, and see some blocking effect when you zoom out. You'll have to take your time to dial in a internal trigger signal to pick this up, since the drive may take all clocking from the tape. Once you get that far you continue more or less akin the process of focusing a lens until you get the best possible signal. You will ideally want to do this while scoping both centre and outside channels, and swapping periodically for the other outside channel. A secondary alignment effect will include skew. The wave forms for these outer channels should be roughly the same level of advance or retard from the central signal. Vertical rotation of the head will affect the skew. Vertical position will affect centring on best signal. You might then make fine adjustments if accessible on this model to get an even amplitude from the amplifier itself. I'm not expert, but we've been having a play with something similar recently in mounting a new head on an old deck. Those rough adjustments should help you get a base alignment before doing manufacturer software diagnostics to dial in fine-tuning. -Colin On 6 Apr 2013, at 14:00, P Gebhardt wrote: > Hi everybody, > > I had a look through my tapes and found one from Control Data being labeled "Total Service Tape". > Does anybody know, if this tape also serves as an alignment tape? I couldn't find any information about that on the Net so far. > > I've been trying to resurrect one of my Fujitsu M2442AC tape drives. Even with heads cleaned,it fails the diagnostics when it comes to writing and reading a tape. > It turned out that the drive head being held by a plastic plate was loose due to the plastic plate being broken. > I tried to glue the plastic together, mounted the head back into its position, but the drive diagnostics still fails (error: F300 ). > > Azimuth-adjusting the head after remouting obviously needs an alignment tape. Having quite a collection of reel tape drives, I thought it > would in any way make sense to have such a tape for head adjustment procedures, but they some to have become pretty rare these days (at least for 9-track 1/2" drives). > Substituting these special tapes by any other tricks or ways seems not to come close to the alignment precision obtained wich alignment tapes. > > > Thanks for any help in advance ! > Pierre > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ > From colineby at isallthat.com Sat Apr 6 18:31:44 2013 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 00:31:44 +0100 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony, I'm sorry for your loss as well. It's interesting to hear people's thoughts on this subject. I have something like 60 computers of varying kinds. Most of them aren't rare enough to be museum pieces. Quite a few of them are US only models which I didn't sell on before moving to the UK. My deal with myself was to stop collecting (hoarding) and do work with a museum. I think I do more retro-computing now than I ever did as a collector alone, and on much more interesting systems. I'd love to think I could just dump them all on the museum if I fell under a bus, but that's not fair on them. Who really needs a NTSC Atari 600XL with a 110 power supply in England? I might as well bin it for all the use it would be to anyone, or for the cost of posting it back to the states. And yet, that's the last thing I want to do. But at the same time, even as I sit here I know the collection is an albatross weighing on me. I don't even use them anymore. All my retro-computing energy goes into museum work. None of my family or work colleagues are interested? so what to do. Here my solution for what its worth -- eBay the lot, starting now. many of them at a loss, back to the US. Alternatively, maybe I'll do a VCF East with a stand. Either way, if I want them preserved, I'll end up having to pay for it. Anything I want to keep playing with goes to the museum here if it's not an unnecessary duplicate. If it is, then I eBay it and play with the museum's copy. I'd love for there to be an instant answer, but this whole divesting thing will take me years. But for me creating a 'collection' to pass on isn't really an option. I'll watch other responses with interest. -Colin On 6 Apr 2013, at 21:42, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Since my father passed away a couple of months ago I have been giving > serious thoguth to making a formal wil myself (when my father was around, > he would have known who to contact about various things). > > My first ;'choice' is to give everything to a personal friend who has > been on this list. He shares enough of my interests that he will realise > what is valuable and what is perhaps not so valuable. But the problem is > tha said friend is about the same age as me, and it is not certainn he > wil loutlive me. Of course if he passes away long before me, I can > producve a new will, but it is worth putting a clause in the one I am > currently writing to say what happens if he is not around. > > Now, as well as my classic computers there's also cmaeras, books, tools, > test gear, other electronci stuff, etc. > > I would rather leave everything to one person/orgnaisation (rather than > say 'the classic computers go to , the tools go to , etc) or worse > still 'I leave my PDP11/45 system to ', etc. In the latter case if I > have, say, swapped my 11/45 for an 11/790 at some point then gets > nothing, even though it was probably my intention that he would get the > 11/70. In the former case, there could be disputes as to what category > certain things fall into -- is the 'Datacopy 300' (an early digital camera > that needs a classic PERQ to run it) a 'classic computer peripheral' or a > 'camera', for example. > > Does anyone have any serious suggestions for an organisation (and yes, I > am considering computer museums here, no matyter what I may have said i > nthe past) who would be prepared to take the lot and pass on that which > was of no use to them to other organisations or enthusiasts? > > -tony > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 6 18:40:26 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 16:40:26 -0700 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> On 4/6/13 3:29 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Folks may be able to help know what museums are close by. > Museums are not landfills. Think about the fact that the longer the common stuff is around the more likely it will be that an artifact will already have been acquired for a collection. It is better to be thinking about finding other collectors than hoping a museum is going to want your stuff at some time in the indefinite future. If you really do have something rare enough a collecting institution would be interested in it, work out the details ahead of time. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 18:50:53 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 16:50:53 -0700 Subject: RL drive select plugs. What is magic about 3? In-Reply-To: <1365286355.33876.YahooMailClassic@web120505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1365286355.33876.YahooMailClassic@web120505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2013 4:03 PM, "Mr Ian Primus" wrote: > > I've been doing a bit with an 11/23+ setup and a few RL drives, and I've run into something odd. I currently have select plugs 0, 1 and 3. If I plug in two drives, 0 and 1, I can boot from either one, and once in RT11, I can access the other one. Easy. If I connect two drives, 0 and 3, however - I can only use drive 0. All accesses to drive 3 result in an error. Can't boot from it, can't access it from RT11. Thinking that maybe the plugs had to be in order, I connected only one drive, drive 1, and was able to boot it and use it just fine. Then, swapping the 3 plug into that single drive, can't boot from it. > Regenerate the system with 4 supported RL units instead of the default of 2. See the System Generation Guide. -Glen From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Apr 6 19:07:04 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 17:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/06/2013 03:45 PM, MG wrote: >> As far as I'm aware, it's not exactly 'allowed' to run (e.g.) "z" >> 'at home', not even for non-commercial/private reasons and end- >> uses/purposes. > > Wrong again. > > One day I will learn to avoid feeding the trolls. One day. > But today is not that day! Muahahahahahahahahha! *ahem* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jon at jonworld.com Sat Apr 6 19:30:11 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 20:30:11 -0400 Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> On Apr 6, 2013, at 7:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Museums are not landfills. I'm highjacking this thread. I'm debating starting a museum locally, as we don't have anything like this in the Indianapolis area. For those who have started such endeavors, what are your stories in getting the ball rolling? From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sat Apr 6 19:32:53 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 02:32:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) Message-ID: allison wrote: > The H9275 can be fitted, the standard connecting cables may or may not > match up but can be had made easily. > > I've even put the backplane from the BA32 in a BA11. The form caxtor is > very standardized though the interconnect for power varies with molex or > terminal barrier strips being used. Ah, good data point to have if I ever get into the situation for a similar operation. > Yes, some of the backplanes and the cpu board have jumpesr that need to > be correct and matching. Alas I don't have any DEC Processor and Peripherals Handbook covering QBUS in dead tree format, just UNIBUS stuff which is of about zilch use to me in this case, but I got myself the BA11-N (which includes details on the backplane) and KDF11-BA manuals from bitsavers. Yes, I also already perused them to a certain extent, and yes, I was aware of the jumper issue (which is why I even _mentioned_ it. Duh.) > I have full sets spanning the years and it fills about 5 ft (1.5M) of > linear shelf space. I consider > them as more important than the hardware. While much of it is on the > net I find it harder to > scan for a specific item like the default jumpers for DLV11J. The books > have a bit of wear > from actual use. Not having worked for DEC and being a bit younger than most of the hardware in question, I'm not that lucky. I could get myself some doubles that were culled from a university collection ('76 peripherals manual, 11/45 and 11/60 processor manuals...) which unfortunately do not cover the era and range of hardware I'm dealing with here. > [boot rom / mass storage issues] I'm not yet holding the CPU card in question in my hands so I don't know the exact variety. I have RL01 (three) and RL02 drives (one) which I would like to use with this system, as they seem appropriate for the era. > The only common card set that depends on CD is RL11 The two board > RL01/02 controller > and it's only 18bit capable, if you working with 22bit system (fully > populated with ram) > then you need the RLV21 which is a single quad board and works in all > backplanes... > > oh and also RL02 drives, a 40" rack minimum, plus a good back! ...not to mention at least one good _pack_, which is (for the RL01) what I'm missing. > In the end the whole Q22 this is only an issue when you exceed 256Kbytes > of memory > as the Q22 allowed the MMU to reach 4MB of ram. I will also be provided with a 512kW MOS memory board, so I will need 22-bit addressing to take full advantage of that, and therefore the (22-bit clean) RLV_12_ single-board controller. So no CD lanes needed here. > PPS oh, I have at least two that have all slots filled! Its way to easy > to plug in IO. > For example RLV21 quad width, RQDX3 dual, TKQ50 (dual) TK50, > RXV21 (dual) RX02 drive controller, DZV11 serial IO(quad), > LPV11 parallel printer (dual), DEQNA (dual), > full 4mb memory (3 quad boards). don't forget the CPU, > 11/23B+ also a quad board. > Thats 16 slots filled plus two grant cards total 18 making a full box. > The grant cards allow for optimal board placement and are required to > keep the DMA and interrupt vector chain complete. Was it indeed usual to build such large configurations based on an 11/23 back then? TQK50, DEQNA and RQDX3 at least sound sound a bit anachronistic to me, there surely must have been newer and more powerful processors out at the time those became available? I think I'll have a rather minimal system (KDF11-B, 512kW RAM, quad SLU, RLV12 + one or drives) for now, not making my first foray into pdp technology more complicated than necessary. Arno From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 21:11:56 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 22:11:56 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote: >> For example RLV21 quad width, RQDX3 dual, TKQ50 (dual) TK50, >> RXV21 (dual) RX02 drive controller, DZV11 serial IO(quad), >> LPV11 parallel printer (dual), DEQNA (dual), >> full 4mb memory (3 quad boards). don't forget the CPU, >> 11/23B+ also a quad board. > >> Thats 16 slots filled plus two grant cards total 18 making a full box. > > Was it indeed usual to build such large configurations based on an 11/23 back then? That was not a small configuration, but it wasn't uncommon. When I did PDP-11 consulting in the late 1980s, my "simple" machine in my home office was a BA-11N with a KDF11-A with 4 32kW memory boards (they were nearly free by then), an RXV21, an RLV11 ($100 vs over $1000 for an RLV12), an LPV11, a DLV11J for console and Kermit port, and BDV-11 for boot ROM and bus termination. That's 7 dual-height cards and three quad-height cards. What was selling new at time was a MicroPDP-11, so that's a BA-23 with a quad-height CPU, a quad height memory card, an RQDXn (I forget which model shipped with the MicroPDPs), a quad-height serial card, > TQK50, DEQNA and RQDX3 at least sound sound a bit anachronistic > to me, there surely must have been newer and more powerful > processors out at the time those became available? There were - you could get a MicroPDP-11 with a KDJ11, and lots of people did, but they cost more. I wouldn't have wanted to run an RSX-11/M+ system on a KDF11, but I did see plenty of them on KDJ11 processors (but even more on Unibus machines). > I think I'll have a rather minimal system (KDF11-B, 512kW RAM, > quad SLU, RLV12 + one or drives) for now, not making my first > foray into pdp technology more complicated than necessary. I would call that a mid-range Q-bus PDP-11 myself, not "minimal". Among other characteristics, I personally think of Q22 as "not minimal". You can do a lot with RT-11 in 18 bits of memory. A large Qbus system would be the full 4GB of RAM, Ethernet, a disk larger than an RQDXn can take (meaning over 150GB), usually SMD, ESDI or SCSI disk. -ethan From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 21:21:21 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 22:21:21 -0400 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus < sales at elecplus.com> wrote: > Some things are easy to Google, and you get reasonably appropriate results. > Other things give you whacky results! > > Google HP 700/96, and you get decent results. > > Google apple, and the first 20 items relate to Apple computers or Apple > Corp., not to eating apples. > > Google Commodore, and surprisingly, the first line is not Commodore > computer > related. (Interestingly, it seems a company has bought the rights to the > Commodore and Amiga names, and will be re-inventing the C64 with nVidia > graphics inside) > > Google wolf cub, and you get everything from animals to Scouting to music > to > golf clubs! > > > > Seems like they need to tweak their algorithms again? > Google keeps track of what you usually search for and tweaks the algorithm accordingly. So, if you search for computer equipment all the time, then do a search for commodore, you get commodore computers. If you search for naval history terms all the time, you'd probably get commodore Perry at the top. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Apr 6 21:59:29 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 22:59:29 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5160E111.40206@verizon.net> On 04/06/2013 10:11 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote: >>> For example RLV21 quad width, RQDX3 dual, TKQ50 (dual) TK50, >>> RXV21 (dual) RX02 drive controller, DZV11 serial IO(quad), >>> LPV11 parallel printer (dual), DEQNA (dual), >>> full 4mb memory (3 quad boards). don't forget the CPU, >>> 11/23B+ also a quad board. >>> Thats 16 slots filled plus two grant cards total 18 making a full box. >> Was it indeed usual to build such large configurations based on an 11/23 back then? > That was not a small configuration, but it wasn't uncommon. Not at all uncommon. Usually the disk round out might have left out the RQDX or the RX02 but many in the day wanted to move from 8" to 5.25 for space and needed one system to do both. The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day that was as costly as the base machine if not more. > > When I did PDP-11 consulting in the late 1980s, my "simple" machine in > my home office was a BA-11N with a KDF11-A with 4 32kW memory > boards (they were nearly free by then), an RXV21, an RLV11 ($100 vs > over $1000 for an RLV12), an LPV11, a DLV11J for console and Kermit > port, and BDV-11 for boot ROM and bus termination. That's 7 > dual-height cards and three quad-height cards. The MicroPDP11 over time came with any of the three RQDX, the rqdx1 was short lived and the RQDX2 was a revised and cleaned up RQDX1 and still quad width. The RQDX3 was later and both cheaper to make and generally better. They all could with the correct firmware upgrades run the same floppies and hard disks. My first machine was a 4slot backplane, LSI11, 8kw of H11 ram and a TU58 I managed to fix. The main box was an old aluminum shell from a S100 machine I had with a H780 power supply. > What was selling new at time was a MicroPDP-11, so that's a BA-23 with a > quad-height CPU, a quad height memory card, an RQDXn (I forget which > model shipped with the MicroPDPs), a quad-height serial card, Most of them had RQDX2, a RX50 and RD51 (St412), RD52(quantum D540, rd31(20mb ST225) or rd32(40mb St250). Memory ran from 128K all the way up to 4mb (4 quad width board early and later 2 quad width). CPU was either 11/23+ or later 11/73 options. IO was usualy cpu (two serial) plus DHV or DZV for multiple lines and possibly a LPV11. That was the usual self standing pedestal. The racked version had RL02 or and could have other drives and tapes such as 9track or TK50. That was mid 80s package. Standard disk was RX50 floppy and maybe RD51, 52. I also have one I built of random parts to "DEC Supported configuration" with floppy, hard disk and 1mb ram. Nice small machine and not too noisy. >> TQK50, DEQNA and RQDX3 at least sound sound a bit anachronistic >> to me, there surely must have been newer and more powerful >> processors out at the time those became available? TK50 was tape DLT tape. DEQNA was ethernet, and RQDX3 was MSCP floppy and hard disk controller. CPU typically was 11/23+ or 11/73 later on for a price. > There were - you could get a MicroPDP-11 with a KDJ11, and lots > of people did, but they cost more. I wouldn't have wanted to run > an RSX-11/M+ system on a KDF11, but I did see plenty of them on > KDJ11 processors (but even more on Unibus machines). The biggest advantage of the KDJ11 was I&D space for 2.11BSD or RSTS or RSX11. Better memory utilization. The disk mix in my case was so I could handle any common DEC media. RL, RX02, RX50, RX33, any MFM drive (5 through 150mb) and TK50 was a common DLT item. >> I think I'll have a rather minimal system (KDF11-B, 512kW RAM, >> quad SLU, RLV12 + one or drives) for now, not making my first >> foray into pdp technology more complicated than necessary. You will want RX50 or RX02 as those were and are common media. Its easier to find Dias on RX50 or RX02 though I've seen them on TK50 but hated loading them form that (slow!). Either way a RX02 or RX50 was the common simple and cheap storage that offered portability. RL packs were over 160$ new and didn't like to be bounced. FYI drives like RL02 were nearly as expensive as the base machine ($8-12K). > I would call that a mid-range Q-bus PDP-11 myself, not "minimal". > > Among other characteristics, I personally think of Q22 as "not minimal". > You can do a lot with RT-11 in 18 bits of memory. Yes, you can even in 16bits. I also have a tiny system using M8186 in a 12 slot dual wide cage running 512KB ram (4 boards), MRV11 (boot), DLV11J for serial IO, and TU58 for storage. It boots the TU and copies it to VM: and reboots from there making for a small but very fast RT-11 system. The OS only use the 28KW and the rest is a virtual disk (ram disk) big enough to copy the whole base os and a few useful apps. > A large Qbus system would be the full 4GB of RAM, Ethernet, a > disk larger than an RQDXn can take (meaning over 150GB), > usually SMD, ESDI or SCSI disk. > I think you meant 150MB for RQDXm for its upper limit. For larger there were large disks but that was uncommon for Qbus 11s. RT11 could barely fill (the whole mess) a 20mb drie with much room left over. For RSTS or RSX a 31mb (RD52) was enough and two did the trick. larger systems often had mag tape either DLT (tk50) or 9track for backup and sneakernet (off site or remote systems before WAN). Typical PDP11 OSs were fairly compact and 30MB could allow for many users. Those that ran Unix Most versions fit on a RL02 (10mb) with some space and 20-40mb was adequate room for a lot of users and applications. The system I still use is the tall (50") rack BA-11 CPU I used in my office when I was in the Mill (ML03-6/B5) as a utility system for printing and off line (non VAX work). Still fun to use and I even have a few uVAX3100s running VMS for it to talk to. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 22:34:51 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 23:34:51 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5160E111.40206@verizon.net> References: <5160E111.40206@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 10:59 PM, allison wrote: > Either way a RX02 or RX50 was the common simple and cheap storage > that offered portability. RL packs were over 160$ new and didn't like to > be bounced. FYI drives like RL02 were nearly as expensive as the base > machine ($8-12K). When I was using the BA11N system I described, I owned an RL01 because I couldn't afford an RL02. FWIW, I was messing with this system just last month. It's still intact. > Yes, you can even in 16bits. I also have a tiny system using M8186 in a > 12 slot dual wide cage running 512KB ram (4 boards), MRV11 (boot), > DLV11J for serial IO, and TU58 for storage. It boots the TU and copies > it to VM: and reboots from there making for a small but very fast > RT-11 system. The OS only use the 28KW and the rest is a virtual > disk (ram disk) big enough to copy the whole base os and a few > useful apps. That sounds like a fine RT-11 system. >> A large Qbus system would be the full 4GB of RAM, Ethernet, a >> disk larger than an RQDXn can take (meaning over 150GB), >> usually SMD, ESDI or SCSI disk. >> > > I think you meant 150MB for RQDXm for its upper limit. Yes. 150MB, not GB. Modern habits. > For larger > there were large disks but that was uncommon for Qbus 11s. Agreed. As one example, I'm thinking of the system that was the target for my work at the time (1986-1987)... KDJ11 w/4MB of memory, RLV12 + RL02, RQDX3, some RDn boot drive, and an ESDI controller with a Fujitsu Eagle (~400MB) for scan data (the purpose of the machine). It was *not* a cheap system - several tens of thousands of dollars when bought new. I was happy that I was able to write code for it on my $400 (used price) system ($300 for BA11 + most of the cards I listed + $100 for the RLV11, and repurposing most of the peripherals from my PDP-8/a). I made my living from that little PDP-11 for over a year. Good investment! The transfer medium was an RL02 pack via an RL02 drive that my boss loaned me. My boot drive and editing area was all on my RL01. The RL02 contained a customer- provided data file I used to write code against, and served as the physical medium we'd carry onto the customer site to deliver new releases. I'm pretty sure that at the time, that RL02 drive cost several times more than my entire computer. > The system I still use is the tall (50") rack BA-11 CPU I used in my office > when I was in the Mill (ML03-6/B5) as a utility system for printing and > off line (non VAX work). Still fun to use and I even have a few > uVAX3100s running VMS for it to talk to. Cool. -ethan From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 6 23:36:09 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 23:36:09 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5160F7B9.10707@pico-systems.com> Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 21:58:25 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks I don't remember the RM07. I remember the RM05 (CDC 9766) and the RP07, which I _thought_ was a 100% DEC design (that resembled a white washing machine with no access panels), but I could be wrong about that. My memory may be slipping. We had a 500 MB drive that fits the description, MASSBus only, and just a couple buttons on the front. You had to open the back to flip the circuit breaker off to reset the drive - which I had to do a LOT until they fixed some of the firmware bugs. I THOUGHT the model was RM07, but maybe it was an RP07. I thought RP was for removable disk packs, and the RM was for fixed HDAs. The drive we had was definitely made by Burroughs, it had Burroughs labels on the boards ons other parts inside. I gather it never was very popular due to price, and so I can't find much online. But, I did find one pic with a readable RP07 label and it looks like I remember. We never had to leave covers open on ours, and had no overheating problems, although the HDA did run hot enough to almost burn your hand! We did have under floor cold air supply in our machine room. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 6 23:40:11 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 23:40:11 -0500 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5160F8AB.2090707@pico-systems.com> Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 14:00:06 +0100 (BST) From: P Gebhardt To: cctech Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment Message-ID: <1365253206.48217.YahooMailNeo at web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hi everybody, I had a look through my tapes and found one from Control Data being labeled "Total Service Tape". Does anybody know, if this tape also serves as an alignment tape? I couldn't find any information about that on the Net so far. I used to make my own skew tapes by just writing a program to write out huge blocks (8K or more) of all 1's. That worked fine for using a scope to check the skew. Not sure if a drive diagnostic would accept such a pattern as a skew tape, though. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 6 23:56:37 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 23:56:37 -0500 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5160FC85.9050800@pico-systems.com> Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 00:10:24 +0100 From: Colin Eby To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment Message-ID: <975726A4-6B0E-4EE6-BB5E-B518CAA638B6 at isallthat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 If you don't have a alignment tape, you might try simply creating a /dev/zero tape from a known good drive. No, this won't work. It will only have transitions in the parity channel, all other channels (0-7) will have no transitions at all except at the end of the block (CRC and LRCC). Writing all 1's will have transitions on all data channels AND the parity channel (to get odd parity on each byte). Drives made for alignment with a scope have a resistor summing network that sums the bit detector on each channel. With bad alignment you see a wave with lots of stairsteps up and down the side. With correct alignment, it becomes almost a perfect square wave, with at most one narrow step on the sides. Jon Jon From wilson at dbit.com Sun Apr 7 00:29:25 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 01:29:25 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <5160F7B9.10707@pico-systems.com> References: <5160F7B9.10707@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20130407052925.GA5515@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Apr 06, 2013 at 11:36:09PM -0500, Jon Elson wrote: > We had a 500 MB drive that fits the description, MASSBus >only, and just a couple buttons on the front. I'll bet you mean the RP07. I had a hazy recollection that it was built by Sperry but maybe that story got garbled -- Burroughs and Sperry must have been engaged by then so what's the difference. 516 MB is the claimed capacity IIRC. Wasn't there a keypad under the lid? Fancy... >I thought RP was for removable >disk packs, and the RM was for fixed HDAs. That would make sense. So, no. RM was just the later generation, using almost (but naturally not quite) generic SMD drives and an "RM adapter" which was almost (but naturally not quite) the same between all models, to make the jump from very-nearly-SMD to Massbus. The RM80 was indeed fixed (same HDA as the RA80, and the R80 in a VAX-11/730), but the rest (RM02/03/05) were slightly hacked CDC 9762/9766 pack drives. IIRC the RP07 tended to live on the RMxx Massbus instead of the RPxx one, so it got a DR: device name instead of a DB: like the earlier RP0x drives (on PDP-11s anyway). Insanity... John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 7 00:28:46 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 22:28:46 -0700 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: <5160F8AB.2090707@pico-systems.com> References: <5160F8AB.2090707@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5161040E.1020905@sydex.com> On 04/06/2013 09:40 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > I had a look through my tapes and found one from Control Data being > labeled "Total Service Tape". > Does anybody know, if this tape also serves as an alignment tape? I > couldn't find any information about that on the Net so far. I don't think so. I'm with others in that this is just a CDC branding for a "premium" brand of tape. I think CDC had a similar hyperbole for their floppies. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 00:53:51 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 01:53:51 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516098C5.10704@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <516067EB.4020305@xs4all.nl> <51606C5D.9020204@neurotica.com> <51607D91.3020205@xs4all.nl> <51608522.8090200@neurotica.com> <516098C5.10704@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516109EF.1000707@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 05:51 PM, MG wrote: > On 6-apr-2013 22:27, Dave McGuire wrote: >> *sigh* Troll. > > You really shouldn't get so 'emotional' over these things. I just don't like trolls, or people who spout off at the mouth without knowing a damn thing about what they're talking about. >> They are. I can see you don't much keep up with the news. > > I realize this is a retro/classic computing mailing list, but... ...more trolling... >> Why would they? They're doing fine. The banks haven't stopped >> buying them, and that's who matters in that world. > > But the NonStop and other people tell me exactly the same. Who am > I supposed to believe? I don't give a shit whom you do or do not believe. Neither does the mainframe market. > Also, how would that plead well for the platform considering the > recent wave of issues with the internet banking? (Especially here > in Europe, which has been in the news the last few days.) No clue what you're talking about here. My bank works fine. >> Oh, of course. I must've missed the entire financial world's >> transition to PCs. It must've been sometime last week. > > Not (just) the financial world. But yes, you probably did... Clueless. >> Since IBM continues to introduce new mainframes at about the same >> pace that they always have > > Which is probably too slow for nowadays. Clueless. >> and continues to pour GIGANTIC amounts of money into their development, > > Not enough likely. BEYOND clueless. >>> Touchy subject? >> >> Not really...I just don't like trolls. Or pricks with chips on their >> shoulders who make loud assertions about things that they clearly know JACK >> POINT SHIT about. > > /Fortunately/, for a minute I thought it was a touchy subject! LOL. ...troll... -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 00:55:50 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 01:55:50 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 06:39 PM, MG wrote: >> What you say is true - most people, even professionals, do not know >> what a mainframe was or is. The problem is that you are not observing >> things as they are. Much of this is due to the outlook that Unix (and >> Windows) people have - you assume the mainframe is dead, so you look >> no further, and continue assuming the mainframe is dead. The mainframe >> will not find you, and will not inform you. > > Not how capitalism typically works, though. > > >> In the mainframe market, being invisible has advantages. > > In the /market/ market, it has serious disadvantages. *laugh* I'll tell IBM to "get right on that". I'm sure they'll value your sage business advice. Troll. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 01:01:36 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 02:01:36 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5160A258.1090103@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <51608F12.7060903@neurotica.com> <5160A258.1090103@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51610BC0.5040708@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 06:31 PM, MG wrote: > On 6-apr-2013 23:09, Dave McGuire wrote: >> You'd be wrong about that. I'm a UNIX guy. I'm impressed with >> IBM'sbig stuff, but that's not the world I work in. > > Why do you care then? You get overly emotional for something you're > not even involved with. I've told you this THREE TIMES. "I don't like trolls", and "I react poorly to clueless people spouting off about things that they know nothing about". I honestly have no idea of why I'm driven to correct that sort of crap, as people will remain blissfully clueless and blissfully (and safely) tucked behind their keyboards, with nothing else to do but start flame wars on mailing lists. I WILL try to stop "feeding the troll". > Did you even read that Register article, or are you so convinced > of IBM's propaganda? I don't look at marketing material. ANY marketing material. You, however, clearly do. > Hilariously, when I search on the 'net for "mainframe", in the top > results there are denials and negations like "mainframes aren't > dead" and "why the mainframe isn't dead", like also on YouTube and > of IBM itself. Yes, exactly. Because there are so many clueless people, such as yourself, and people with vested interests elsewhere, who have been saying "mainframes are dead" for decades. I started hearing it in the 1980s! >> Why would they? Do you think they have some need for people >> likeyourself, who seems to think they're "dead" anyway? > > It's just /me/? They should be grateful I've even heard of it > and show /some/ interest. (Which gradually degrades with every > encounter with IBM zealots, like yourself.) Oh ok, I'm an "IBM zealot" now, because I haven't bought into the same trendy crap that you have. I'm not a "mainframer"...never have been. I'm *interested* in them, as of fairly recently, when I learned that they hadn't actually died, and I wanted to know why. After looking at things with an open mind and learning a bit, something you might consider trying by the way, I became interested and am learning more. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 01:34:40 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 02:34:40 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> On 04/06/2013 08:07 PM, geneb wrote: >>> As far as I'm aware, it's not exactly 'allowed' to run (e.g.) "z" >>> 'at home', not even for non-commercial/private reasons and end- >>> uses/purposes. >> >> Wrong again. >> >> One day I will learn to avoid feeding the trolls. One day. >> > But today is not that day! Muahahahahahahahahha! > > *ahem* And you're absolutely RIGHT. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Sat Apr 6 09:37:33 2013 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 16:37:33 +0200 Subject: Xerox 820-II FDC (was Re: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC controller. what is) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002501ce32d4$478b4c50$d6a1e4f0$@lazzerini@email.it> Trying to rebuild the FDC card by my xerox 820-II motherboard, I have discovered the presence of an IC named 733w01522 (U1) on the photo of the original PCB which code I cannot read on the schematic not very readable reported at the end of xerox820-II service manual. Sorry, I mistakenly indicated a 14-pin TTL chips even though it was 16 pin. Thanks for contribution of Chuck Guzis from the VCF he told me that the 733w01522 is a PROM and it is equivalent at 74S288 but also to others IC as reported here http://www.hobbyroms.com/proms.html. U1 (74S288) and U2 (74S174) together constitute a "finite state machine" (so they told to me cause I'm not so expert) whose purpose is to provide a read clock and a read data to the chip WD1797 from raw data received from the drive. Then I need to discover the code that the chip could have (without having the original chip programmed with me!). Upon the recommendation of Chuck Guzis I found the code listing on page 12 of the manual of the FDC1797's application notes. At this point, trusting to this code I'd need to buy a programmed 74S288 (or equivalent). After all this I was finally trying to figure out if it sould be better to use of a schematic published on an old issue of Microcornucopia: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4f8kblogrlzdr9m/FDC_from_Micro_Cornucopia_#22_Feb8 5.pdf. Who wrote that article decided to build itself a FDC controller card for his xerox 820-II extracting a block of its schematic from a Kaypro-II's schematic really making very few changes and using a FDC WD1793 + WD9216 for external separator data. Due to its small number of components, and having already a WD1797 I'd just need of a WD9216 (i hope to find it on the Internet yet) and wiring it would be maybe more simple. Last suggestion (always from the so expert Chuck that I thanks so much) would be to use a WD2797 instead of WD1797, but I'm not a designer and while i can understand something of all those things it's very hard for me to change schematics or adjust components. I hope to be able to buy a ready Xerox 820-II FDC board even I know that it's not very easy to find. Thanks anyway for all the support that was given to me. Regards Enrico - Pisa (ITALY) From CyndeM at vulcan.com Sat Apr 6 12:36:08 2013 From: CyndeM at vulcan.com (Cynde Moya) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 17:36:08 +0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_Identifications_sought_:=AC)?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F643F60EE@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> I can tell you exactly what they are. Back row, L-R : Apple II (Serial no. A252-223242) with two Apple disk II (Serial nos. 663608 and 1028507) and TMC S9 Picture Monitor (Serial no. 1098) ; Intertec Superbrain (Serial no. 355129) [Replacing the original photograph's Datapoint 8200]. Front row, L-R : Sanyo MBC-550 (Serial no. 18221141) with Panasonic RGB monitor (Serial no. EC3430061) and keyboard (Serial no. 18221149) [Replacing the original photograph's NEC PC-8001] ; Zenith Data Systems Z-19 (Serial no. J128P106) ; Commodore Pet (Serial no. 0010850) ; and TRS-80 I (Serial no. 355129) with monitor and expansion unit. Replacement computers are of similar form factor and also ran early Microsoft software. Cynde Moya Librarian/Archivist Living Computer Museum -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sam O'nella Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 1:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Identifications sought :?) I can only identify the easier ones. Likely a Zenith H-89 in the middle, and I thought a TRS-80 Model I on the front right although the more I look at that picture the less detail I can see. That front left one looks quite familiar though. Wish there was a bigger picture out there. Love the remake though. On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/04/gates_allen_reshoot_photo/ > > ? > One of the most iconic photos from the history of Microsoft, featuring > a lanky young Bill Gates perched next to his coding mentor (the way he > tells it) Paul Allen, has been recreated at Seattle's Living Computing > Museum. > [...] > Among the systems still surrounding them are an Apple II with twin > drives and an ancient monitor in the top left of the picture, with a > Commodore Pet below Bill Gates. Readers who can identify the other > systems, please let us know in Comments. > ? > > -- > Liam Proven . Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk . GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com . Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 . Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From CyndeM at vulcan.com Sat Apr 6 12:39:36 2013 From: CyndeM at vulcan.com (Cynde Moya) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 17:39:36 +0000 Subject: Need PDP-9 Paper Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F643F6104@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> I will check our uncataloged collection of paper tapes next week and see if there is anything of use. Great work on that PDP-9 restoration! Cynde Moya Librarian/Archivist Living Computer Museum -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Thompson Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 5:02 PM To: cctech Subject: Need PDP-9 Paper Tapes The RICM has the processor of their PDP-9 working fairly well. We have most of the diags for the processor on paper tape. We will make working copies of the tapes and also make images to send to Bitsavers. We have the diag documentation for the TC59/TU20, but we do not have the paper tapes. It would be possible to enter the source from the listing and assemble it using Simh, but that would be a bit of work. I know that it is probably wishful thinking, but does anyone have paper tapes of the TC59/TU20 diags? Paper tapes of the TC02/TU55 diags would be nice to have too. We would eventually like to get an OS running on the system. It looks like the ADSS Input/Output Monitor will run on our configuration, and maybe even the Keyboard Monitor. Does anyone have paper tapes for ADSS or any other monitor that would run on this system? Details of the paper tapes and manuals that we have are at the bottom of this page: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9 -- Michael Thompson From CyndeM at vulcan.com Sat Apr 6 12:41:05 2013 From: CyndeM at vulcan.com (Cynde Moya) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 17:41:05 +0000 Subject: Need PDP-9 Paper Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F643F611E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> I will check our uncataloged collection of paper tapes next week and see if there is anything of use. Great work on that PDP-9 restoration! Cynde Moya Librarian/Archivist Living Computer Museum -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Thompson Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 5:02 PM To: cctech Subject: Need PDP-9 Paper Tapes The RICM has the processor of their PDP-9 working fairly well. We have most of the diags for the processor on paper tape. We will make working copies of the tapes and also make images to send to Bitsavers. We have the diag documentation for the TC59/TU20, but we do not have the paper tapes. It would be possible to enter the source from the listing and assemble it using Simh, but that would be a bit of work. I know that it is probably wishful thinking, but does anyone have paper tapes of the TC59/TU20 diags? Paper tapes of the TC02/TU55 diags would be nice to have too. We would eventually like to get an OS running on the system. It looks like the ADSS Input/Output Monitor will run on our configuration, and maybe even the Keyboard Monitor. Does anyone have paper tapes for ADSS or any other monitor that would run on this system? Details of the paper tapes and manuals that we have are at the bottom of this page: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9 -- Michael Thompson From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 05:11:26 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 12:11:26 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 8:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/06/2013 08:07 PM, geneb wrote: >>>> As far as I'm aware, it's not exactly 'allowed' to run (e.g.) "z" >>>> 'at home', not even for non-commercial/private reasons and end- >>>> uses/purposes. >>> >>> Wrong again. >>> >>> One day I will learn to avoid feeding the trolls. One day. >>> >> But today is not that day! Muahahahahahahahahha! >> >> *ahem* > > And you're absolutely RIGHT. ;) Glad your reinforcements arrived, maybe he can provide you tactical ad hominem simulated air support from that F-15C cockpit? - MG From colineby at isallthat.com Sun Apr 7 05:13:42 2013 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:13:42 +0100 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: <5160FC85.9050800@pico-systems.com> References: <5160FC85.9050800@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Jon, First, lemme reassert my non-expert status on this. However, my understanding of PE -- phase encoding as a raw signal -- is that a 0 is a low to high transition(Thomas or reversed high to low for IEEE) against a fixed clock time. Successive 0s have to be encoded taking the sign low to high, before going high to low again. The system is to ignore those signals and simply count the transition at the mid-point of the period. Setting the blocking aside, doesn't that mean you end up with two transitions in a period for every zero. And if you write zero to every channel you get a nice sine wave at the pre-amp, with the parity bit being the inverse signal (all ones). NZRI would of course be rather different. But for PE, this is my understand of the signal inside a block. I believe that's the signal form you were thinking of. -Colin On 7 Apr 2013, at 05:56, Jon Elson wrote: > Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 00:10:24 +0100 > From: Colin Eby > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment > Message-ID: <975726A4-6B0E-4EE6-BB5E-B518CAA638B6 at isallthat.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > > If you don't have a alignment tape, you might try simply creating a > /dev/zero tape from a known good drive. > > No, this won't work. It will only have transitions in the parity channel, all other > channels (0-7) will have no transitions at all except at the end of the block (CRC > and LRCC). Writing all 1's will have transitions on all data channels AND > the parity channel (to get odd parity on each byte). > > Drives made for alignment with a scope have a resistor summing network that > sums the bit detector on each channel. With bad alignment you see a wave > with lots of stairsteps up and down the side. With correct alignment, it > becomes almost a perfect square wave, with at most one narrow step on > the sides. > > Jon > Jon > From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 05:16:19 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 12:16:19 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 7:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > *laugh* > > I'll tell IBM to "get right on that". I'm sure they'll value your sage > business advice. > > Troll. What is a "troll" in your book, is that someone who prefers to live in the now and present (currently the year 2013, for your information), instead of passionately trying to believe it's still the 1950~'70s time frame? By the way, you should ditch the Cold War mentality at least. Not everybody who doesn't blindly kiss the /behind/ of IBM (like you) is a 'traitor'. - MG From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sun Apr 7 07:49:51 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 14:49:51 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Was it indeed usual to build such large configurations based on an 11/23 back then? > > That was not a small configuration, but it wasn't uncommon. > > [data points for system configurations from Ethan and Allison] allison wrote: > Not at all uncommon. Usually the disk round out might have left out the > RQDX or the RX02 > but many in the day wanted to move from 8" to 5.25 for space and needed > one system to do both. OK, some more enlightenment absorbed. > You will want RX50 or RX02 as those were and are common media. > Either way a RX02 or RX50 was the common simple and cheap storage > that offered portability. Mass storage for my system is another area I need to spend more thought on, for now I was planning to stay with the RL drives I got with the case. > RL packs were over 160$ new and didn't like to > be bounced. FYI drives like RL02 were nearly as expensive as the base > machine ($8-12K). The drives are not the problem, I have those. I will need to check them out and get myself some more packs though. On second thought, some kind of floppy might be nice, too, but that is not a must now. If pressed for more mass storage, I could always put my QBus SMD controller (and a CMD Phoenix fixed/removable drive combination I was recently offered )to use with this machine, although I had got those rather imagined using them with my VSII/GPX. > Its easier to find Dias on RX50 or RX02 though I've seen them on TK50 > but hated loading them form that (slow!). I do have a TQK(mumble) board already (which was originally also intended for the VSII), but no drive yet. > > TQK50, DEQNA and RQDX3 at least sound sound a bit anachronistic > > to me, there surely must have been newer and more powerful > > processors out at the time those became available? > There were - you could get a MicroPDP-11 with a KDJ11, and lots > of people did, but they cost more. I wouldn't have wanted to run > an RSX-11/M+ system on a KDF11, but I did see plenty of them on > KDJ11 processors (but even more on Unibus machines). > > TK50 was tape DLT tape. DEQNA was ethernet, and RQDX3 was > MSCP floppy and hard disk controller. > > CPU typically was 11/23+ or 11/73 later on for a price. So the distinction between the rackmount and MicroPDP/VAX eras wasn't as sharp as I imagined it. I have such boards (ok, a DELQA in this case) in said VSII. > > I think I'll have a rather minimal system (KDF11-B, 512kW RAM, > > quad SLU, RLV12 + one or drives) for now, not making my first > > foray into pdp technology more complicated than necessary. > > I would call that a mid-range Q-bus PDP-11 myself, not "minimal". > Among other characteristics, I personally think of Q22 as "not minimal". > You can do a lot with RT-11 in 18 bits of memory. My fault, I should have been more specific and included: "in terms of features/peripherals/board count". Also, I was thinking relative to all 11s, not just QBUS. > The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day that was > as costly as the base machine if not more. I understand that memory was at a premium back then. Out of interest, how common was core memory (H223 and similar) in QBUS systems? Is BBU supported for the MOS memory options? > > I would call that a mid-range Q-bus PDP-11 myself, not "minimal". > > (...) > > Among other characteristics, I personally think of Q22 as "not minimal". > > You can do a lot with RT-11 in 18 bits of memory. > > Yes, you can even in 16bits. I also have a tiny system using M8186 in a > 12 slot dual wide cage running 512KB ram (4 boards), MRV11 (boot), > DLV11J for serial IO, and TU58 for storage. It boots the TU and copies > it to VM: and reboots from there making for a small but very fast > RT-11 system. The OS only use the 28KW and the rest is a virtual > disk (ram disk) big enough to copy the whole base os and a few > useful apps. What OS to use is yet another undecided question, I haven't even read up on the options. I could also just try out some bare metal programming at the ODT for a start. > I think you meant 150MB for RQDXm for its upper limit. For larger > there were large disks but that was uncommon for Qbus 11s. > RT11 could barely fill (the whole mess) a 20mb drie with much room > left over. For RSTS or RSX a 31mb (RD52) was enough and two > did the trick. So with just 1-2 RL0x drives, I'm pretty much stuck with RT-11? I've read that it has a lot in common with later DOS, so that might not even be a bad thing after all :) > larger systems often had mag tape either DLT (tk50) > or 9track for backup and sneakernet (off site or remote systems > before WAN). No such stuff in sight alas, but ISTR there is some sort of emulator software that makes a PC act as a serially-attached tape device? > When I was using the BA11N system I described, I owned an RL01 > because I couldn't afford an RL02. > > FWIW, I was messing with this system just last month. It's still intact. Nice to hear that. How problematic are the BA11-N power supplies, BTW? > > The system I still use is the tall (50") rack BA-11 CPU I used in my office > > when I was in the Mill (ML03-6/B5) as a utility system for printing and > > off line (non VAX work). Still fun to use and I even have a few > > uVAX3100s running VMS for it to talk to. > > Cool. Seconded :) Arno From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 08:25:00 2013 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 09:25:00 -0400 Subject: Looking for Apple Lisa 2/5 parts Message-ID: I'm trying to restore an Apple Lisa 2/5 that has been hit with battery corrosion. I'm looking for the following parts, if anyone has any they'd like to sell: - Lisa 2/5 I/O board - Lisa motherboard - Lisa CPU board While I'm at it: - Lisa keyboard - Lisa 1 mouse (the kind with the long button and not the Mac 128 mice). I am primarily looking for working/tested items but I may be interested in something that was not as damaged as mine that is restorable. Please contact me off-list with these or any other parts you may have. I am in Canada and would need to have them shipped there. I'll cross-post this to the LisaList too. Thank you. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 09:02:02 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:02:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for Apple Lisa 2/5 parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Santo Nucifora wrote: > I'm trying to restore an Apple Lisa 2/5 that has been hit with battery > corrosion. I'm looking for the following parts, if anyone has any they'd > like to sell: > > - Lisa 2/5 I/O board > - Lisa motherboard > - Lisa CPU board Santo, Have you tried disassembling the unit and soaking the three boards in a 50% water/white-vinegar solution for 24 hours? You may be surprised at how well things clean up. I was given a couple of 2/5 machines in horrendous shape and after a day in mild acidity, things looked terrific. Apple used very high-quality PCB material and despite appearances nothing was actually dissolved. Even the buss connectors (which were covered in green crud) gleamed! I did get both systems operational after some minor fiddling. Steve -- From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 10:32:52 2013 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:32:52 -0400 Subject: Looking for Apple Lisa 2/5 parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the reply, Steve. I've tried many things so far and the use of vinegar was one of them :) This is a long story that I didn't want to bore anyone with but here goes. My first experience with a Lisa 2/5 after acquiring one was a broken CRT that occurred during shipping. It still had the batteries in it so I cut those out and soaked the I/O and motherboard in vinegar/water to remove as much corrosion as possible. To fix the broken CRT, I sourced a DEC 12" mono CRT and replaced the yoke with the Lisa yoke. Unfortunately, the Lisa was dead when trying to start it up the first time (I couldn't start troubleshooting without a good CRT). All the while, I was a little skeptical that the DEC CRT would work. As a back up, I was lucky enough to find an empty Lisa 2/5 chassis (with wiring, motherboard and CRT) so I picked that up. This was an A6SB100 model with a Lisa 2 front bezel. The motherboard was also corroded but was different from my original motherboard. On this one, the mouse, needs a notched mouse connector that I assume was used on the original Lisa 1. I was able to clean "motherboard 2" with water/vinegar but the caps around the parallel port had disintegrated. I've since ordered those. While my original motherboard looked great, I did manage to break one of the pins in the 120 pin I/O board connector while giving it a light brushing. I am trying to find a replacement 120 pin as we speak for that. Even with bad caps, I tried both motherboards but no luck. I had checked most of the traces on the I/O board and found that I had to push in pins on the COP421 to make contact. I've replaced the socket since and could power up the Lisa with one of the motherboards!. After replacing the COP421 socket, my I/O board seems to be semi-working. My original Lisa 2/5 with the DEC CRT works fine (note for those who have bad burn-in) but I get an I/O board "Error 52" and that's where I am today. I think I may need a COP421 but that is kinda difficult to find and locating this is no guarantee that the I/O board is okay. So, I have two chassis, one set of cards, The original motherboard (with good caps and broken mouse pin on I/O port) is bad even though it's gleaming (and I tried soaking a second time just in case). The motherboard with the bad caps seems to be okay. I do have one keyboard but I don't know if it works. I have one Mac 128K mouse that I had to notch the 9 pin connector on to allow it to fit the Lisa 1 motherboard. Seeing as how I have some parts for a second Lisa 2/5 including a working power supply, I figured I'd see if anyone has any spare parts lying around because I think I've hit a wall. Other than checking continuity again on the I/O board, I'm not sure where to go from here. Sorry for the long post but in summary, I've been busy on it for a few months. Thanks for listening. Unfortunately, after looking for "Error 52" on the Lisa list and other places, it's a specific error for the COP421 but others have fixed it, in one case, by reseating the CPU board. It's getting a little frustrating but I'm determined! Ultimately, I'd like to get a Lisa 2/5 with LOS going, as opposed to Mac XL. I can revert my first Lisa 2/5 back with a few replaced ROM chips but if someone has some extra parts lying around, I may be able to get the second chassis going and possibly have both, hence the extended request for parts. It seems that I need a working Lisa to fix a Lisa :) Thanks again. On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Santo Nucifora wrote: > > I'm trying to restore an Apple Lisa 2/5 that has been hit with battery >> corrosion. I'm looking for the following parts, if anyone has any they'd >> like to sell: >> >> - Lisa 2/5 I/O board >> - Lisa motherboard >> - Lisa CPU board >> > > Santo, > > Have you tried disassembling the unit and soaking the three boards in a > 50% water/white-vinegar solution for 24 hours? You may be surprised at how > well things clean up. I was given a couple of 2/5 machines in horrendous > shape and after a day in mild acidity, things looked terrific. Apple used > very high-quality PCB material and despite appearances nothing was actually > dissolved. Even the buss connectors (which were covered in green crud) > gleamed! > > I did get both systems operational after some minor fiddling. > > Steve > > > > -- > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 7 10:33:01 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 08:33:01 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516191AD.7060306@bitsavers.org> On 4/7/13 3:11 AM, MG wrote: > Glad your reinforcements arrived, maybe he can provide you > tactical ad hominem simulated air support from that F-15C > cockpit? > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 10:48:22 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:48:22 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_?= =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Clueless! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Apr 7, 2013, at 6:16 AM, MG wrote: > On 7-apr-2013 7:55, Dave McGuire wrote: >> *laugh* >> >> I'll tell IBM to "get right on that". I'm sure they'll value your sage >> business advice. >> >> Troll. > > What is a "troll" in your book, is that someone who prefers to live in > the now and present (currently the year 2013, for your information), > instead of passionately trying to believe it's still the 1950~'70s > time frame? > > By the way, you should ditch the Cold War mentality at least. Not > everybody who doesn't blindly kiss the /behind/ of IBM (like you) > is a 'traitor'. > > - MG From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Apr 7 10:49:17 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:49:17 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2013, at 3:16 AM, MG wrote: > On 7-apr-2013 7:55, Dave McGuire wrote: >> *laugh* >> >> I'll tell IBM to "get right on that". I'm sure they'll value your sage >> business advice. >> > > By the way, you should ditch the Cold War mentality at least. Not > everybody who doesn't blindly kiss the /behind/ of IBM (like you) > is a 'traitor'. *sigh* I wasn't going to jump into this but... For those that say the mainframe (specifically IBM 360/370/390/z-series architecture) is dead, I would say not. Not only are they suited to do traditional "mainframe" tasks but they're *really* good at virtual hosting. You know the virtualization stuff that's been touted by the likes of VMWare, Microsoft, etc on Intel platforms for the last few years. Well, IBM's been doing that since 370 days (early 1970's). They do virtualization better than anyone...almost no IBM shops run the OS on the "metal". They're run inside a VM. It's just that good. Linux has been ported to the z-series. As an experiment, IBM wanted to see how many Linux VM clients could be run (basically to see what it would be like for a hosting company). They stopped at 42,000 Linux clients running on a *single* z-series. They stopped not because the performance was unacceptable or because they ran into any limits...they got tired of adding VMs! It's an architecture that will soon be 50 years old. The original 360 architecture (which was not only the ISA but also how I/O was interfaced) has been surprisingly resilient. I cast suspicion on anyone who says something is "dead". Not only have I been hearing that the mainframe is dead since the late 70's, I've also been hearing that the disk drive is dead for about the same period of time. How's that going? TTFN - Guy From jon at jonworld.com Sun Apr 7 10:52:49 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:52:49 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2013, at 11:48 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Clueless! I think we need a sarcasm/facetious font for our e-mails. The problem is we in retro-land only do ASCII e-mails, and the wind up in flamewars :( From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Apr 7 11:06:27 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 09:06:27 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1A9DF49B-1AF9-418E-AA58-0D8C055CDBDF@shiresoft.com> On Apr 7, 2013, at 8:49 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Apr 7, 2013, at 3:16 AM, MG wrote: > >> On 7-apr-2013 7:55, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> *laugh* >>> >>> I'll tell IBM to "get right on that". I'm sure they'll value your sage >>> business advice. >>> >> >> By the way, you should ditch the Cold War mentality at least. Not >> everybody who doesn't blindly kiss the /behind/ of IBM (like you) >> is a 'traitor'. > > *sigh* > > I wasn't going to jump into this but... > > For those that say the mainframe (specifically IBM 360/370/390/z-series architecture) > is dead, I would say not. Not only are they suited to do traditional "mainframe" tasks > but they're *really* good at virtual hosting. You know the virtualization stuff that's been > touted by the likes of VMWare, Microsoft, etc on Intel platforms for the last few years. > Well, IBM's been doing that since 370 days (early 1970's). They do virtualization better > than anyone...almost no IBM shops run the OS on the "metal". They're run inside a VM. > It's just that good. > > Linux has been ported to the z-series. As an experiment, IBM wanted to see how many > Linux VM clients could be run (basically to see what it would be like for a hosting company). > They stopped at 42,000 Linux clients running on a *single* z-series. They stopped not > because the performance was unacceptable or because they ran into any limits...they got > tired of adding VMs! > > It's an architecture that will soon be 50 years old. The original 360 architecture (which was > not only the ISA but also how I/O was interfaced) has been surprisingly resilient. > > I cast suspicion on anyone who says something is "dead". Not only have I been hearing > that the mainframe is dead since the late 70's, I've also been hearing that the disk drive > is dead for about the same period of time. How's that going? Oh, and here's some more on the zSeries (copied from wikipedia): A direct comparison of System z servers with other computing platforms is difficult. For example, System z servers offload such functions as I/O processing, cryptography, memory control, and various service functions (such as hardware configuration management and error logging) to dedicated processors. These "extra" processors are in addition to the (up to) 101 CPs per frame. System z cores include extensive self checking of results, and if an error is detected the server retries the instruction. If the instruction still fails, the server shuts down the failing processor and shifts workload, "in flight," to a surviving spare processor. The IBM mainframe then "calls home" (automatically places a service call to IBM). An IBM service technician replaces the failed component with a replacement part (possibly even a new processor book, consisting of a group of processors). With System z9 servers, the technician installs the new book and removes the old one without interruption to running applications. (Note that mainframes have reported MTBF figures of 20-50 years). Similar design redundancies exist in memory, I/O, power, cooling, and other subsystems. All these features exist at the hardware and microcode level, without special application programming. The same concepts can extend to coupled frames separated by up to 100km in a Geographically Dispersed Parallel Sysplex when z/OS is used. As has been said by others, mainframes are used by organizations that care about data availability and uptime. BTW zSeries, the z stands for "zero downtime". TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Apr 7 11:22:14 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 09:22:14 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2013, at 3:16 AM, MG wrote: > On 7-apr-2013 7:55, Dave McGuire wrote: >> *laugh* >> >> I'll tell IBM to "get right on that". I'm sure they'll value your sage >> business advice. >> >> Troll. > > > By the way, you should ditch the Cold War mentality at least. Not > everybody who doesn't blindly kiss the /behind/ of IBM (like you) > is a 'traitor'. More nails... This one for fun: mainframe[1]: n. 1. An obsolete device still used by thousands of obsolete companies serving billions of obsolete customers and making huge obsolete profits for their obsolete shareholders. And this year's run twice as fast as last year's. n. 2. A large PC peripheral [1] The Devil's IT Dictionary The following is from a white paper written by Atos Origin: The mainframe platform has a reputation for its extremely high level of quality but, amongst those who do not use them, for being expensive, monolithic and inflexible (that would be you Marco). Yet it can be very cost-effective compared to a proliferation of smaller systems, can be flexibly configured and re-configured. There is further irony in any resistance to the use of mainframes, because everyone in IT is talking about virtualisation and utility computing (see Introducing Utility Computing, Atos Origin, October 2006). But both concepts have been around in the mainframe world for 30 years or more. By providing virtualisation, VMware is doing for Intel platforms what VM/370 did on mainframes in the 1970?s. Mainframe is a utility service, and has almost always been so. Many advocates of utility services are actually ?reinventing the mainframe? in many aspects of what they seek to achieve. Another interesting statistic is average capacity utilization: Wintel-based servers: 8-15% Unix/RISC: 28-45% Mainframes: 65-75% It's also noted that mainframes (zSeries) can and do run at 100% utilization for long periods quite happily. Try that with a non-mainframe! TTFN - Guy From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 11:25:39 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 12:25:39 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_?= =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2013, at 11:52 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Apr 7, 2013, at 11:48 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Clueless! > > I think we need a sarcasm/facetious font for our e-mails. The problem is we in retro-land only do ASCII e-mails, and the wind up in flamewars :( He wasn't being sarcastic or facetious, he was being an ass. A clueless one at that. Not inserting pictures, fonts, and dancing bears into email messages, inflating them to dozens of times the size they should be is "clueful and prudent". "Retro" would be writing said emails on a Teletype. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 11:39:32 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 16:39:32 +0000 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Al Kossow" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 07/04/2013 00:40:26 Subject: Re: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? >On 4/6/13 3:29 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: >>Folks may be able to help know what museums are close by. >> > >Museums are not landfills. > >Think about the fact that the longer the common stuff is around >the more likely it will be that an artifact will already have >been acquired for a collection. > >It is better to be thinking about finding other collectors than >hoping a museum is going to want your stuff at some time in the >indefinite future. > >If you really do have something rare enough a collecting institution >would be interested in it, work out the details ahead of time. > > > Whilst I am not acting on behalf of MOSI. Manchester, I am pretty sure from conversations I have had with Curatorial staff that they have very specific collection goals. That is any exhibit should help tell the story of computing either North West England, either as part of another industry, or as an Industry in its own right. Display space and storage space is as much a problem for them as for most home collectors (they also have static steam engines, steam locomotives and aeroplanes). So Rob if you have anything which might fulfils those goals let me know and I'll give you a contact. I am personally very sad that they do have equipment which isn't on show but which has vanished from Computing "in the wild", and which would tell a story about computing in the northwest UK, so go here and enter "Computer":- http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/search.php?type=Object in the subject search, and not whats in storage.... From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 7 12:16:33 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I cast suspicion on anyone who says something is "dead". Not only have I been hearing > that the mainframe is dead since the late 70's, I've also been hearing that the disk drive > is dead for about the same period of time. How's that going? IIRC, the first time that I read "The Mainframe is Dead" was before the existence or even proposal of MICRO-computers, in an article belatedly "announcing" the existence of Mini-computers. About the same time, "books and libraries are dead", but well before "disk drives (spinning rust with moving parts) are dead". Does the population of the UNdead exceed that of the living? Where's my damn hovercar? That was s'posed to make automobiles dead. Where's the advanced (DNA?) medical research that would end cancer and aging? (and make Death Dead) The Mainframe certainly IS dead, IFF we define it as such. Some current ones no longer require a forklift and a UNION moving crew. Many/most are no longer larger enough for you, or any but a TINY scope, to get lost in. If we define "mainframe" as more than 32 bits or more than 1MB of RAM, then there are now billions? of them. (YES, those were used as definitions once!) If we define "mainframe" as the 99th percentile of size, then by definition they can never die. Please tell me that Dell doesn't make anything that they call a "Mainframe"! If we define computer based "mobile devices" (otherwise known as a "phone") as being computers, then mainframes certainly occupy less than 0.01% of the numbers, or maybe even bandwidth!. Disunirregardless of whether the mainframe population is growing or shrinking. Ken Olsen (DEC) once said that there was only need for half a dozen. So long as there is still need for half a dozen, then it ain't dead! "Who would want a computer on their desk?" It might as well be in "The Clod"! Certainly, there are MANY tasks, such as beginning programming classes, that once used mainframes, and have finally been moved to more appropriate platforms. But, we shall continue to reinvent the flat-tire. What manages "The Clod"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 12:20:26 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 13:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for Apple Lisa 2/5 parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Even with bad caps, I tried both motherboards but no luck. I had checked > most of the traces on the I/O board and found that I had to push in pins on > the COP421 to make contact. I've replaced the socket since and could power > up the Lisa with one of the motherboards!. After replacing the COP421 > socket, my I/O board seems to be semi-working. My original Lisa 2/5 with > the DEC CRT works fine (note for those who have bad burn-in) but I get an > I/O board "Error 52" and that's where I am today. I think I may need a > COP421 but that is kinda difficult to find and locating this is no > guarantee that the I/O board is okay. It's worth keeping an eye on eBay. I picked up a 2/10 I/O board at a reasonable price last fall. The 2/10 board can be made to work in a 2/5 by performing minor surgery on the "Lisa Lite" floppy interface board. -- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 7 12:33:01 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> It's hard to GIVE collections away! I could will it all in a will, but then my executioner is stuck with getting it OUT. Physically disposing of all of the old computer magazines, etc. will cost more in time and effort (for which she will need to be compensated) then she will be willing to deal with. What is a stack of untested ST-4096s worth? NO, she is NOT going to test them in order to get "full value" for the ones that work. When I closed my business, there were only a few people who would come get things. Sellam hauled away quite a few cubic yards of stuff. I need to move out of my [jamful] office at the college, when I retire at the end of this semester. I have several cubic yards of goodies to get rid of. But, "Free Pickup In Berkeley" doesn't work! When I list a handful of items, people want me to ship it to them. Half never reimburse me the postage! I'm swamped, exhausted, ill, caring for my even more incapacitated 90 year old mother, and unable to get done what NEEDS to be done. I can not deal with packing each item one at a time, and PAYING to get rid of them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com 0.42 semester left From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Apr 7 12:33:15 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:33:15 -0700 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Ken Olsen (DEC) once said that there was only need for half a dozen Wasn't TJ Watson Sr.? TTFN - Guy From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 12:44:56 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 13:44:56 -0400 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5161B098.7010303@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 01:33 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Ken Olsen (DEC) once said that there was only need for half a dozen > > Wasn't TJ Watson Sr.? I believe so, and I believe it was "I see a world market for about five computers." -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 12:45:58 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 13:45:58 -0400 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5161B0D6.4010100@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 01:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > What manages "The Clod"? Clods! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 7 12:50:20 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 18:50:20 +0100 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <01b001ce33b8$608f0db0$21ad2910$@ntlworld.com> Not sure I am doing it right, my searches come up empty. I entered "Computer Collection" in Collection Name, and "Computer" under Subject. By the way I don't have anything that is North West England specific unfortunately, except perhaps some artefacts from the Manchester University Dataflow project. The rest is DEC stuff, and a Teletype(!). I doubt MOSI would be interested in most of this. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Sent: 07 April 2013 17:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re[2]: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Al Kossow" > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Sent: 07/04/2013 00:40:26 > Subject: Re: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > >On 4/6/13 3:29 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > >>Folks may be able to help know what museums are close by. > >> > > > >Museums are not landfills. > > > >Think about the fact that the longer the common stuff is around the > >more likely it will be that an artifact will already have been acquired > >for a collection. > > > >It is better to be thinking about finding other collectors than hoping > >a museum is going to want your stuff at some time in the indefinite > >future. > > > >If you really do have something rare enough a collecting institution > >would be interested in it, work out the details ahead of time. > > > > > > > Whilst I am not acting on behalf of MOSI. Manchester, I am pretty sure from > conversations I have had with Curatorial staff that they have very specific > collection goals. That is any exhibit should help tell the story of computing > either North West England, either as part of another industry, or as an > Industry in its own right. Display space and storage space is as much a > problem for them as for most home collectors (they also have static steam > engines, steam locomotives and aeroplanes). So Rob if you have anything > which might fulfils those goals let me know and I'll give you a contact. > > I am personally very sad that they do have equipment which isn't on show > but which has vanished from Computing "in the wild", and which would tell > a story about computing in the northwest UK, so go here and enter > "Computer":- > > http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/search.php?type=Objec > t > > in the subject search, and not whats in storage.... From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Apr 7 12:59:35 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 13:59:35 -0400 Subject: XT-IDE V2 PCBs available Message-ID: <000301ce33b9$b70c8360$25258a20$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! There are some XT-IDE V2 PCBs available if anyone would like some. They will cost the same as before ($12 each). However due to unforeseen extreme price increases in shipping by USPS I am forced to change shipping costs. Shipping in the US will be $3 for a single PCB and $2 for each additional PCB. Shipping internationally will be $10 for a single PCB and $3 for each additional PCB. This is for the bare basics USPS first class postage with no tracking or insurance. The builder assumes all risk of delivery as per usual arrangement. I apologize for the large price increase on shipping but this is out of my hands. The USPS is in dire financial trouble and is raising prices on shipping. It affects us all and is most unfortunate. These boards are provided "at cost" so there is no margin to absorb any shipping price increases. I have to pass them along. If you would like one or more XT-IDE V2 PCBs please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showwiki.php?title=XTIDE+Rev2 There are about 10 XT-IDE V2 PCBs left. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 7 13:12:25 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 11:12:25 -0700 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5161B709.7010703@bitsavers.org> On 4/7/13 10:33 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > When I closed my business, there were only a few people who would come > get things. Sellam hauled away quite a few cubic yards of stuff. > and that collection is being disposed of, as was CHAC's when History San Jose aquired the Perham collection. If someone were serious about starting a museum (as opposed to exhibiting a personal collection) you need to think about sustainability. It's easy to collect a huge pile of stuff, then the expensive part begins (cataloging, storage and preservation costs, exhibit design, construction, and maintenance). CHAC and Sellam both failed in the later. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 7 13:16:17 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 19:16:17 +0100 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <01b401ce33bc$00e66350$02b329f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 07 April 2013 18:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re[2]: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > > It's hard to GIVE collections away! > > I could will it all in a will, but then my executioner is stuck with getting it > OUT. Physically disposing of all of the old computer magazines, etc. will > cost more in time and effort (for which she will need to be compensated) > then she will be willing to deal with. > What is a stack of untested ST-4096s worth? NO, she is NOT going to test > them in order to get "full value" for the ones that work. > > When I closed my business, there were only a few people who would come > get things. Sellam hauled away quite a few cubic yards of stuff. > > > I need to move out of my [jamful] office at the college, when I retire at the > end of this semester. > > I have several cubic yards of goodies to get rid of. > But, "Free Pickup In Berkeley" doesn't work! > When I list a handful of items, people want me to ship it to them. > Half never reimburse me the postage! > I'm swamped, exhausted, ill, caring for my even more incapacitated 90 year > old mother, and unable to get done what NEEDS to be done. > I can not deal with packing each item one at a time, and PAYING to get rid > of them. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > 0.42 semester left I love the typo for "executor" :-) I can see that it might be a problem getting rid of stuff, but if it is worth keeping it must be worth shipping, it would be a shame just to dump it. I find it disappointing to see that people don't reimburse the shipping, could you not insist on payment up front plus a bit extra for the time and effort? Regards Rob From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 13:30:55 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 14:30:55 -0400 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5161BB5F.8050005@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 01:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > What is a stack of untested ST-4096s worth? NO, she is NOT going to > test them in order to get "full value" for the ones that work. Hey, if you just happen to have a stack of untested ST-4096s.. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Apr 7 13:32:38 2013 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 13:32:38 -0500 Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5161BBC6.3080603@pico-systems.com> Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:13:42 +0100 From: Colin Eby To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Jon, First, lemme reassert my non-expert status on this. However, my understanding of PE -- phase encoding as a raw signal -- is that a 0 is a low to high transition(Thomas or reversed high to low for IEEE) against a fixed clock time. Successive 0s have to be encoded taking the sign low to high, before going high to low again. The system is to ignore those signals and simply count the transition at the mid-point of the period. Setting the blocking aside, doesn't that mean you end up with two transitions in a period for every zero. And if you write zero to every channel you get a nice sine wave at the pre-amp, with the parity bit being the inverse signal (all ones). NZRI would of course be rather different. But for PE, this is my understand of the signal inside a block. I believe that's the signal form you were thinking of. OH, you meant to write the tape in 1600 BPI (PE) mode! yes, that would put 3200 transitions per inch on all data channels, but the parity channel would have its transitions out of phase with the data channels. PE mode will write two transitions for every bit time when the same bit (1 or zero) is written, but for alternating 1's and zeros, you only get one transition per bit time. The polarity of the transition at the center of the bit time contains the data bit, and additional transition needs to be added when the same data bit follows. See Page 4-11 of this doc for a picture : Generally, skew is not worried about so much in PE mode, the drives have FIFOs to resync the data. But, of course after repairing the head mounting, it could be WAY off, too far for the FIFO to correct. They usually only have 9 bit times worth of skew correction. Anyway, most older 800 BPI drives have circuitry built-in to assist in skew adjustment, an analog summing circuit that adds the output of the 9 bit detectors together. The stepped square wave is very easy to interpret and adjust on a scope. I've never done skew adjustment on 1600 or 6250, I think it would be harder than on 800 BPI. I think the best bet is a digital or storage scope, looking at data channels 4 and 5 (the outermost ones on the tape) on two scope channels, and triggering so the first transitions of a block are seen. The preamble is 40 bytes of all zeros, then one 1, followed by the data. Jon From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 13:34:19 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 18:34:19 +0000 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <01b001ce33b8$608f0db0$21ad2910$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Rob Jarratt" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 07/04/2013 18:50:20 Subject: RE: Re[2]: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? >Not sure I am doing it right, my searches come up empty. I entered >"Computer Collection" in Collection Name, and "Computer" under Subject. > Sorry, don't touch the "collections" box, just put "computer" into the "Object Summary" box. It should then become obvious as to why you leave collections blank... >By the way I don't have anything that is North West England specific >unfortunately, except perhaps some artefacts from the Manchester >University Dataflow project. The DataFlow project probably fits with the collections policy. Oddly Pete Lomas of Norcott Technologies who designed the Raspberry PI Hardware worked on the Dataflow project... >The rest is DEC stuff, and a Teletype(!). I doubt MOSI would be >interested in most of this. If it has Northwest connections then it may be of interest. So I know GEC Althsom who designed the Metrolink trams were a big DEC house, as were BNFL , so kit with connections to these may be of interest... > >Regards > >Rob > Dave G4UGM >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave >> Sent: 07 April 2013 17:40 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re[2]: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? >> >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "Al Kossow" >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Sent: 07/04/2013 00:40:26 >> Subject: Re: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? >> >On 4/6/13 3:29 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: >> >>Folks may be able to help know what museums are close by. >> >> >> > >> >Museums are not landfills. >> > >> >Think about the fact that the longer the common stuff is around the >> >more likely it will be that an artifact will already have been >>acquired >> >for a collection. >> > >> >It is better to be thinking about finding other collectors than >>hoping >> >a museum is going to want your stuff at some time in the indefinite >> >future. >> > >> >If you really do have something rare enough a collecting institution >> >would be interested in it, work out the details ahead of time. >> > >> > >> > >> Whilst I am not acting on behalf of MOSI. Manchester, I am pretty >>sure from >> conversations I have had with Curatorial staff that they have very >>specific >> collection goals. That is any exhibit should help tell the story of >>computing >> either North West England, either as part of another industry, or as >>an >> Industry in its own right. Display space and storage space is as much >>a >> problem for them as for most home collectors (they also have static >>steam >> engines, steam locomotives and aeroplanes). So Rob if you have >>anything >> which might fulfils those goals let me know and I'll give you a >>contact. >> >> I am personally very sad that they do have equipment which isn't on >>show >> but which has vanished from Computing "in the wild", and which would >>tell >> a story about computing in the northwest UK, so go here and enter >> "Computer":- >> >> >>http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/search.php?type=Objec >> t >> >> in the subject search, and not whats in storage.... > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 7 13:36:29 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 11:36:29 -0700 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5161BCAD.6040206@sydex.com> On 04/07/2013 10:16 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > IIRC, the first time that I read "The Mainframe is Dead" was before the > existence or even proposal of MICRO-computers, in an article belatedly > "announcing" the existence of Mini-computers. > > About the same time, "books and libraries are dead", > but well before "disk drives (spinning rust with moving parts) are dead". How about the paperless office? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 7 13:40:44 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: <5161B098.7010303@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> <5161B098.7010303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130407113209.Y53497@shell.lmi.net> > > Wasn't TJ Watson Sr.? On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > I believe so, and I believe it was "I see a world market for about five > computers." . . . and, until the population of them drops below five, the mainframe is obviously not dead. There don't need to be "millions". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wheagy at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 14:32:50 2013 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 15:32:50 -0400 Subject: Apple Quicktake camera Windows software? Message-ID: I picked up a Quicktake 100 camera this weekend for cheap and am trying to get it working under Windows so I can easily get pictures to my Website, but I am unable to locate the Windows software. Anyone have a link? An hour on Google has yielded little except the driverguide website which was very frustrating. Tks...Win From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Apr 7 14:32:17 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:32:17 +0200 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: <51609B46.90907@verizon.net> References: <51609B46.90907@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20130407213217.aa747a3aae924ca5439db2de@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 18:01:42 -0400 allison wrote: > The only common card set that depends on CD is RL11 The KDA50 doesn't use CD? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 14:41:22 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 21:41:22 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161CBE2.1040605@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 18:25, Dave McGuire wrote: > He wasn't being sarcastic or facetious, he was being an ass. > A clueless one at that. I'm probably waiting for the true gospel of IBM, like you did. In the meantime, please excuse me oh wise one. > "Retro" would be writing said emailson a Teletype. No, that would be dysfunctional I believe. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 14:55:25 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 21:55:25 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161CF2D.6040003@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 17:49, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > For those that say the mainframe (specifically IBM 360/370/390/z-series > architecture) is dead, I would say not. For the record, /I/ didn't say it was dead; I was mostly quoting others and also referenced an article. I've mostly observed that it's, although perhaps not dead (yet?), /rather invisible/ nowadays. I'm not sure what is worse. Call me strange and unusual, but I thought a platform --- and any platform, at that --- fared better with (well, you know) a solid and sizable user/install base. That people at least know what it (read: said platform) is, so they can mentally prepare themselves with using it and not be totally flabbergasted and estranged by its uses and purposes, when suddenly becoming acquainted with such a platform. > Not only are they suited to do traditional "mainframe" tasks but > they're *really* good at virtual hosting. A bit too /virtual/ nowadays, like I said. > You know the virtualization stuff that's been touted by the likes > of VMWare, Microsoft, etc on Intel platforms for the last few years. I know, but where is IBM to remind people of its origins and to give them the opportunity to get acquainted with the, I'll admit, impressive looking z/VM platform(s). > Well, IBM's been doing that since 370 days (early 1970's). The "since 370 days" bit confused me a bit at a first glance... > Linux has been ported to the z-series. But very few flavors (i.e. distributions) seem to support it and I wonder how many Linux people had even the opportunity to try it. > They stopped at 42,000 Linux clients running on a *single* z-series. Impressive, but what kind of workloads though? > They stopped not because the performance was unacceptable or because > they ran into any limits...they got tired of adding VMs! Do you remember where you read about this, out of curiosity? I would not mind to read more into this myself. > I cast suspicion on anyone who says something is "dead". Why? > Not only have I been hearing that the mainframe is dead since the > late70's, I've also been hearing that the disk drive is dead for > about thesame period of time. How's that going? Actually, solid state/flash memory technology is beginning to make inroads, especially nowadays. Is that what they were going on about back then? (Or perhaps crusty tape zealots?) Whether the mainframe is dead or not: How often do you hear about it? Some school textbooks in the 1980s would still, even somewhat colloquially, still mention the term "mainframe". How often does that still happen nowadays? Where are the future mainframe maintainers and developers supposed to come from, IBM mystery land? - MG From gyorpb at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 14:55:39 2013 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:55:39 +0200 Subject: Apple Quicktake camera Windows software? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <893D604D-2893-405A-A7EF-21E6A2F64023@gmail.com> On 7 apr. 2013, at 21:32, Win Heagy wrote: > I picked up a Quicktake 100 camera this weekend for cheap and am trying to > get it working under Windows so I can easily get pictures to my Website, > but I am unable to locate the Windows software. Anyone have a link? An > hour on Google has yielded little except the driverguide website which was > very frustrating. The QuickTake 100 and 150 were rebadged Kodak cameras. It might help to include those in your search. .tsooJ -- Wherever you go, there you are. -- Joost van de Griek From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 14:59:09 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 21:59:09 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <1A9DF49B-1AF9-418E-AA58-0D8C055CDBDF@shiresoft.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <1A9DF49B-1AF9-418E-AA58-0D8C055CDBDF@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5161D00D.5020701@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 18:06, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > As has been said by others, mainframes are used byorganizations > that care about data availability and uptime. BTW zSeries, the z > stands for "zero downtime". So what? That's just marketing. "NonStop" boils down to the same and would proclaim the same (or better, depending who you're dealing with) degree of resilience. - MG From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 15:00:42 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 16:00:42 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516191AD.7060306@bitsavers.org> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> <516191AD.7060306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > A good idea. I have better things to do with my life. -- Will From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Apr 7 16:00:36 2013 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 16:00:36 -0500 Subject: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 02:01:36 -0400 From: Dave McGuire > I WILL try to stop "feeding the troll". Try a little harder! You're the one participant common to almost every one of these ridiculous and absolutely pointless kids-in-a-sandbox pissing contests... Seriously, have you thought about how much time you spend feeding the trolls and how much better you could spend that time (not to mention the time the rest of us waste wading through this dreck)? m From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 15:01:39 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:01:39 +0200 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: <20130407113209.Y53497@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> <5161B098.7010303@neurotica.com> <20130407113209.Y53497@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5161D0A3.3090804@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 20:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > . . . and, until the population of them drops below five, the mainframe > is obviously not dead. > There don't need to be "millions". Sounds rather... /foreboding/. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 15:01:54 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:01:54 +0200 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatrly exaggerated (Was: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving In-Reply-To: <20130407113209.Y53497@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <20130407095422.H52358@shell.lmi.net> <5161B098.7010303@neurotica.com> <20130407113209.Y53497@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5161D0B2.8010808@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 20:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > . . . and, until the population of them drops below five, the mainframe > is obviously not dead. > There don't need to be "millions". Sounds rather... foreboding. - MG From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 15:04:49 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 13:04:49 -0700 Subject: pdp-11/23 config (was: Re: Qbus identification) In-Reply-To: <20130407213217.aa747a3aae924ca5439db2de@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <51609B46.90907@verizon.net> <20130407213217.aa747a3aae924ca5439db2de@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 18:01:42 -0400 > allison wrote: > >> The only common card set that depends on CD is RL11 > The KDA50 doesn't use CD? The M7164 and M7165 are connected via 40-conductor and 50-conductor intermodule cables, not the CD interconnect on the backplane. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 15:11:40 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:11:40 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 18:22, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > There is further irony in any resistance to the use of mainframes, > because everyone in IT is talking about virtualisation and utility > computing (see Introducing Utility Computing, Atos Origin, October > 2006). But both concepts have been around in the mainframe world for > 30 years or more. By providing virtualisation, VMware is doing for > Intel platforms what VM/370 did onmainframes in the 1970?s. > Mainframe is a utility service, and has almostalways been so. Many > advocates of utility services are actually ?reinventingthe mainframe? > in many aspects of what they seek to achieve. So, why is IBM allowing this to happen? Why aren't they there to give VMware and others hell, perhaps even supply a bit more economical solution for the /little people/? Why does IBM assume that people will have the telepathic ability to learn about IBM and its products? For a supposedly successful platform, with no problems at all (which, by the way, that earlier Inquirer article of late 2012 doesn't seem to support), it sure seems relegated to obscurity and extreme niches at best. For a supposedly successful platform, why isn't IBM interested in making it even more successful and getting more people to use and perhaps switch to it? Why is IBM building "x" (and "i" and "p" for that matter), why not /just/ "z"? > Another interesting statistic is average capacity utilization: > Wintel-based servers: 8-15% > Unix/RISC: 28-45% > Mainframes: 65-75% Where did you get these figures from? > It's also noted that mainframes (zSeries) can and do run at 100% > utilization for long periods quite happily. Try that with a non- > mainframe! 100% utilization, thus with no headroom whatsoever; that's a good idea in general...? (Regardless of whether a specific platform would subdue or become less stable, or whatever.) - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 15:16:10 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:16:10 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161D40A.10609@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 22:11, I wrote: > [...] that earlier Inquirer article [...] Correction: That should be the Register. (See it referenced in this thread.) - MG From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 10:01:27 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:01:27 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 Message-ID: I put information on converting an RP06 to 220VAC single-phase here: https://sites.google.com/site/mthompsonorg/Home/pdp-10/rm03-and-rp06-information/rp06 From: John Wilson > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: VAX 11/780 > On Fri, Apr 05, 2013 at 08:18:20PM -0500, Jon Elson wrote: > > >The RM07 also was 3-phase, I think all the smaller VAX 780 > >disks were single-phase. > > RM02/03/05/80 are definitely single-phase. RP07 is 3-phase as you say, > as is RP06 and I assume therefore RP05. Dunno about RP04. > > >The RM07 was a total monstrosity > >from Burroughs, I hope you don't have one of those. We went through > >a lot of pain as one of the early adopters of that, but in the > >end it was a high performance drive and fairly reliable. > > I've heard you have to pop the RP07's top whenever it's running or it > overheats... otherwise good though, and huge for the time. > > John Wilson > D Bit > -- Michael Thompson From craig at solomonson.net Sun Apr 7 13:24:50 2013 From: craig at solomonson.net (craig at solomonson.net) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 13:24:50 -0500 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's Message-ID: I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room had a few posters hanging on the wall. As I recall, Snoopy was probably the most popular subject along with "space stuff." I just had to piece these old posters together and see what I had printed back in 1981. It turns out that at least 2 of them were from the Princeton University Computer Center Clinic and done by Samuel P. Harbison in 1973. The third one of the Golden Gate Bridge is huge (8 ft. wide and 6.5 ft. tall) and no credits were given. Here are some photos of them for those that are interested: Golden Gate Bridge (with a PAA airplane) - 96" x 78": http://www.solomonson.net/computers/GoldenGate.jpg One Giant Leap (man on the moon) - 40" x 33": http://www.solomonson.net/computers/GiantLeap.jpg The Moon - 59" x 55": http://www.solomonson.net/computers/Moon.jpg From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Apr 7 16:13:29 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 17:13:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, craig at solomonson.net wrote: > I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through > some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room > had a few posters hanging on the wall. As I recall, Snoopy was probably the > most popular subject along with "space stuff." I just had to piece these old > posters together and see what I had printed back in 1981. It turns out that > at least 2 of them were from the Princeton University Computer Center Clinic > and done by Samuel P. Harbison in 1973. > ... Thanks for posting those, Craig. I hadn't seen the Golden Gate before - I don't suppose you still have the card deck for that? I tracked down Sam Harbison a couple of years ago, and he responded to my note with a nice explanation of process he used: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ASCII/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 16:14:00 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 17:14:00 -0400 Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> Message-ID: > I'm highjacking this thread. I'm debating starting a museum locally, as we don't have anything like this in the Indianapolis area. > > For those who have started such endeavors, what are your stories in getting the ball rolling? Plan. Plan. Plan some more. Plan for the distant future. Part of this planning involves a Collections Policy. This is a document that defines the collection - what is to be included, and what is to be turned away. It has been said by many folks over the years that artifacts (hardware) are the easiest things to find, and in time, will completely take over any and all space a museum has. A nice, focused Collection Policy THAT IS ADHERED TO will keep things under control, and keep quality high. Yes, quality is better than quantity. I have been part of a decent number of independent little museums over the years (computer and otherwise, but all being tech related), and nearly all of them have let their collections bloat out of control, due to the lack of a Collections Policy. Trust me - you do not want to get in this situation. Think of all the good stuff later on that has to be passed up because there is no room. Think of the infighting and politics when you need to get rid of things. Think of moving the collection with all the excess when you lose your space. Think of what visitors are looking at. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 16:26:38 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 17:26:38 -0400 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <5161B709.7010703@bitsavers.org> References: <20130407101956.U52358@shell.lmi.net> <5161B709.7010703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > CHAC and Sellam both failed in the later. And a number of current independent computer museums are in the process of failing - they just do not realize it yet. Startup museums should study the history of museums, and maybe learn something from what they find. -- Will From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Apr 7 16:33:03 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:33:03 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> On 04/07/2013 08:49 AM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Was it indeed usual to build such large configurations based on an 11/23 back then? >> That was not a small configuration, but it wasn't uncommon. >> >> [data points for system configurations from Ethan and Allison] > allison wrote: >> Not at all uncommon. Usually the disk round out might have left out the >> RQDX or the RX02 >> but many in the day wanted to move from 8" to 5.25 for space and needed >> one system to do both. > OK, some more enlightenment absorbed. > >> You will want RX50 or RX02 as those were and are common media. >> Either way a RX02 or RX50 was the common simple and cheap storage >> that offered portability. > Mass storage for my system is another area I need to spend more thought on, for now I was planning to stay with the RL drives I got with the case. > In the PDP11 world its easy to build a system that forgets portable IO. A reminder PDP-11 as not a PC and even a 256kb floppy is viable storage as RT11 fits on it. >> RL packs were over 160$ new and didn't like to >> be bounced. FYI drives like RL02 were nearly as expensive as the base >> machine ($8-12K). > The drives are not the problem, I have those. I will need to check them out and get myself some more packs though. On second thought, some kind of floppy might be nice, too, but that is not a must now. cables, terminators and those annoying and scarce drive ID plugs. If anything the floppy is always a must on my systems as all my diags and base RT11 systems are on that media (RX01, RX02, RX50, RX33, RX23). > If pressed for more mass storage, I could always put my QBus SMD controller (and a CMD Phoenix fixed/removable drive combination I was recently offered )to use with this machine, although I had got those rather imagined using them with my VSII/GPX. > A viable uVAX is more than 150mb, (more like 300-500 for V7), a loaded PDP11 is 30MB. Just difference is OS utilization. I would not covet a large drive unless you had the application that required it. >> Its easier to find Dias on RX50 or RX02 though I've seen them on TK50 >> but hated loading them form that (slow!). > I do have a TQK(mumble) board already (which was originally also intended for the VSII), but no drive yet. Save it as loading diags from TK50 is both slow and painful assuming the system can boot a tK50 (not guaranteed). >>> TQK50, DEQNA and RQDX3 at least sound sound a bit anachronistic >>> to me, there surely must have been newer and more powerful >>> processors out at the time those became available? > >> There were - you could get a MicroPDP-11 with a KDJ11, and lots >> of people did, but they cost more. I wouldn't have wanted to run >> an RSX-11/M+ system on a KDF11, but I did see plenty of them on >> KDJ11 processors (but even more on Unibus machines). >> >> TK50 was tape DLT tape. DEQNA was ethernet, and RQDX3 was >> MSCP floppy and hard disk controller. >> >> CPU typically was 11/23+ or 11/73 later on for a price. > So the distinction between the rackmount and MicroPDP/VAX eras wasn't as sharp as I imagined it. > I have such boards (ok, a DELQA in this case) in said VSII. There was considerable overlap in uVAX and Qbus PDP-11, they shared all the same peripherals. The DEQNA is DELQA for all intents its a generational thing. The key is not all of the older PDP-11 software supported the later Qbus uPDP-11/uVAX hardware. > >>> I think I'll have a rather minimal system (KDF11-B, 512kW RAM, >>> quad SLU, RLV12 + one or drives) for now, not making my first >>> foray into pdp technology more complicated than necessary. >> I would call that a mid-range Q-bus PDP-11 myself, not "minimal". >> Among other characteristics, I personally think of Q22 as "not minimal". >> You can do a lot with RT-11 in 18 bits of memory. > My fault, I should have been more specific and included: "in terms of features/peripherals/board count". Also, I was thinking relative to all 11s, not just QBUS. The unibus 11s tended to grow larger in IO as the bus speeds supported higher transfer rates. Also the larger Unibus PDP11s were faster than the 11/23 and the 11/73 only just caught up. >> The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day that was >> as costly as the base machine if not more. > I understand that memory was at a premium back then. > Out of interest, how common was core memory (H223 and similar) in QBUS systems? > Is BBU supported for the MOS memory options? The older LSI11 systems had it if there was a call for non volatile memory, the cost was high. I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle time than Ram of the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on the day was under 1us and dropping. > >>> I would call that a mid-range Q-bus PDP-11 myself, not "minimal". >>> (...) >>> Among other characteristics, I personally think of Q22 as "not minimal". >>> You can do a lot with RT-11 in 18 bits of memory. >> Yes, you can even in 16bits. I also have a tiny system using M8186 in a >> 12 slot dual wide cage running 512KB ram (4 boards), MRV11 (boot), >> DLV11J for serial IO, and TU58 for storage. It boots the TU and copies >> it to VM: and reboots from there making for a small but very fast >> RT-11 system. The OS only use the 28KW and the rest is a virtual >> disk (ram disk) big enough to copy the whole base os and a few >> useful apps. > What OS to use is yet another undecided question, I haven't even read up on the options. > I could also just try out some bare metal programming at the ODT for a start. Start with RT11 as a base os and it will allow you to test and get comfortable at lower cost to learn. It will be transferable knowledge to RSTS or RSX, may help with getting Unix on the machine. > >> I think you meant 150MB for RQDXm for its upper limit. For larger >> there were large disks but that was uncommon for Qbus 11s. >> RT11 could barely fill (the whole mess) a 20mb drie with much room >> left over. For RSTS or RSX a 31mb (RD52) was enough and two >> did the trick. > So with just 1-2 RL0x drives, I'm pretty much stuck with RT-11? I've read that it has a lot in common with later DOS, so that might not even be a bad thing after all :) RT11 only need a RX02. one RL02 can hold the entire RT11 install kit (EVERTHING). I run RT11 on TU58 tape (256kb per tape *2), one tape ahs the whole os with about 30-50K free space the other is not required. RSTS and RSX may want more than one RL02 for enough space for users. A RD52 (31MB) is large enough that RT11 barely filled a corner. RSTS runs many users in that space , RSX will fit with a lot of free space. Unix V6 fist on a RL02 with about 3-5000 free blocks (block =512bytes). Compared to VAX/VMS V5.44H barely fits on a 150mb drive with limited user space. Command line for both RT and VMS looks the same (DCL). The base monitor and os can run in 16kb of ram on PDP11. >> larger systems often had mag tape either DLT (tk50) >> or 9track for backup and sneakernet (off site or remote systems >> before WAN). > No such stuff in sight alas, but ISTR there is some sort of emulator software that makes a PC act as a serially-attached tape device? Yes, it can allow emulation of the TU58 tape that used a serial interface. At 38.2K RT11 takes about 5 minutes to boot on a tu58 (real) the emulated version is faster (no physical rewind/searches needed) but its still not fast enough to consider anything other than RT. >> When I was using the BA11N system I described, I owned an RL01 >> because I couldn't afford an RL02. >> >> FWIW, I was messing with this system just last month. It's still intact. > Nice to hear that. How problematic are the BA11-N power supplies, BTW? > Not bad really but they are aging and until you know the status of what you get test it! >>> The system I still use is the tall (50") rack BA-11 CPU I used in my office >>> when I was in the Mill (ML03-6/B5) as a utility system for printing and >>> off line (non VAX work). Still fun to use and I even have a few >>> uVAX3100s running VMS for it to talk to. >> Cool. > Seconded :) > Actually I have seven Uvax 3100s, two are m76s, 3 uVAX-2000, one has no media as I use it to format media and two uVAX-IIs one in ba23 and the other in a BA123 with a full rack of disks (RQDX3 RX50, RD4, CMD SCSI and three RZ56s). The PDP-11 collection includes LSI-11 in BAllN, BA11V with m8186 F11, three BA11S boxes with 11/2, 11/23, and 11/23+ and a Ba11s in a 50" rack (the loaded 11/73 system). There is also an H11 (LSI11 with heath IO, memory, and box). I keep a Ba23 in a pedestal case uPDP-11 (11/23based, rqdx2 with RD31 and RX50). The only other DEC systems I have are Robin aka VT180 which is a VT100 with Vt180 board so it can be a complete terminal with Z80 based computer that runs CP/M. The rest of my collection of toys are all CP/M systems either S100 or SBC based. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 16:40:48 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:40:48 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161CF2D.6040003@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161CF2D.6040003@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 03:55 PM, MG wrote: >> For those that say the mainframe (specifically IBM 360/370/390/z-series >> architecture) is dead, I would say not. > > For the record, /I/ didn't say it was dead; I was mostly quoting > others and also referenced an article. For the record, you have been spouting off for two days about how dead the mainframe is. You've been doing a lot more than just quoting an article written by a journalist who knows even less about this stuff than you do. YOU have been railing on and on, including your dreaded ad hominem attacks, as if it's your personal mission in life to CAUSE the mainframe industry to die. You started this pointless drivel by mentioning (not even quoting, that I recall, just MENTIONING, but I could be wrong about that) an article published in a good but notoriously "oooh shiny" publication. An article, I might add, that was very poorly-researched. > I've mostly observed that it's, although perhaps not dead (yet?), > /rather invisible/ nowadays. I'm not sure what is worse. IBM doesn't mind. Their customers don't mind. Why do YOU mind? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 16:41:43 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:41:43 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161E817.90601@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 04:11 PM, MG wrote: >> There is further irony in any resistance to the use of mainframes, >> because everyone in IT is talking about virtualisation and utility >> computing (see Introducing Utility Computing, Atos Origin, October >> 2006). But both concepts have been around in the mainframe world for >> 30 years or more. By providing virtualisation, VMware is doing for >> Intel platforms what VM/370 did onmainframes in the 1970?s. >> Mainframe is a utility service, and has almostalways been so. Many >> advocates of utility services are actually ?reinventingthe mainframe? >> in many aspects of what they seek to achieve. > > So, why is IBM allowing this to happen? Why aren't they there to > give VMware and others hell, perhaps even supply a bit more economical > solution for the /little people/? Why does IBM assume that people > will have the telepathic ability to learn about IBM and its products? > > For a supposedly successful platform, with no problems at all (which, > by the way, that earlier Inquirer article of late 2012 doesn't seem > to support), it sure seems relegated to obscurity and extreme niches > at best. Obscurity from YOUR "ooh, shiny!" perspective? Your bank transactions won't be processed on iPads anytime soon. > For a supposedly successful platform, why isn't IBM interested in > making it even more successful and getting more people to use and > perhaps switch to it? Why is IBM building "x" (and "i" and "p" for > that matter), why not /just/ "z"? Why do you think you know more about the mainframe business than IBM? > 100% utilization, thus with no headroom whatsoever; that's a good > idea in general...? (Regardless of whether a specific platform > would subdue or become less stable, or whatever.) It actually IS a good idea for the types of workloads mainframes process. There typically aren't "load spikes" on mainframes as we see in, say, web servers. ATMs don't get slashdotted. There is a "batch window", transactions are processed during that time, they know how many there are, they know how long it takes to process them, and having the machine sit there underutilized during that time is a waste of very expensive CPU cycles. If you knew a DAMN THING about what you're spouting off about, you'd already know this. But you don't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 16:42:41 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:42:41 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161D00D.5020701@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <1A9DF49B-1AF9-418E-AA58-0D8C055CDBDF@shiresoft.com> <5161D00D.5020701@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161E851.1070307@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 03:59 PM, MG wrote: >> As has been said by others, mainframes are used byorganizations >> that care about data availability and uptime. BTW zSeries, the z >> stands for "zero downtime". > > So what? That's just marketing. "NonStop" boils down to the same > and would proclaim the same (or better, depending who you're dealing > with) degree of resilience. "Uptime" is not marketing. Uptime is uptime. But I guess you didn't know that, either. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 16:44:08 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:44:08 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161CBE2.1040605@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161CBE2.1040605@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5161E8A8.2000403@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 03:41 PM, MG wrote: > On 7-apr-2013 18:25, Dave McGuire wrote: >> He wasn't being sarcastic or facetious, he was being an ass. >> A clueless one at that. > > I'm probably waiting for the true gospel of IBM, like you did. In > the meantime, please excuse me oh wise one. If I were you, I'd take any bits of information I could get. Maybe you'll learn something. Maybe. >> "Retro" would be writing said emailson a Teletype. > > No, that would be dysfunctional I believe. Actually, it'd work just fine. But you probably didn't know THAT either. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 16:45:57 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:45:57 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> <516191AD.7060306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5161E915.9050307@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 04:00 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> > > A good idea. I have better things to do with my life. Agreed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 7 16:48:29 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 17:48:29 -0400 Subject: feeding trolls, was Re: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5161E9AD.3000201@neurotica.com> On 04/07/2013 05:00 PM, MikeS wrote: >> I WILL try to stop "feeding the troll". > > Try a little harder! You're the one participant common to almost every one of > these ridiculous and absolutely pointless kids-in-a-sandbox pissing contests... > > Seriously, have you thought about how much time you spend feeding the trolls > and how much better you could spend that time (not to mention the time the > rest of us waste wading through this dreck)? I have, and I don't like it one bit. I am a busy guy, I don't have time to waste with this crap. But stupid people bother me, and stupid people who THINK they know something, and get all militant about it, REALLY rub me the wrong way. I will try harder. I should just black-hole email addresses at the first sign of stupidity. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 7 16:56:56 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:56:56 +0100 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: <01b001ce33b8$608f0db0$21ad2910$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01be01ce33da$d3f578d0$7be06a70$@ntlworld.com> I remember Pete Lomas quite well, he taught me an interesting course on computer-aided computer design. However, I don?t recall him being on the Dataflow project, at least not when I was on the project anyway. As for my collection's links to the North West, a fair proportion of my machines were used by companies with a strong North West presence, but I don't have any real proof, or provenance, or information about how they were used. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Sent: 07 April 2013 19:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re[4]: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Rob Jarratt" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: 07/04/2013 18:50:20 > Subject: RE: Re[2]: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > >Not sure I am doing it right, my searches come up empty. I entered > >"Computer Collection" in Collection Name, and "Computer" under Subject. > > > Sorry, don't touch the "collections" box, just put "computer" into the "Object > Summary" box. It should then become obvious as to why you leave > collections blank... > >By the way I don't have anything that is North West England specific > >unfortunately, except perhaps some artefacts from the Manchester > >University Dataflow project. > > The DataFlow project probably fits with the collections policy. Oddly Pete > Lomas of Norcott Technologies who designed the Raspberry PI Hardware > worked on the Dataflow project... > > >The rest is DEC stuff, and a Teletype(!). I doubt MOSI would be > >interested in most of this. > > If it has Northwest connections then it may be of interest. So I know GEC > Althsom who designed the Metrolink trams were a big DEC house, as were > BNFL , so kit with connections to these may be of interest... > > > >Regards > > > >Rob > > > Dave > G4UGM > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > >> Sent: 07 April 2013 17:40 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re[2]: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > >> > >> > >> ------ Original Message ------ > >> From: "Al Kossow" > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Sent: 07/04/2013 00:40:26 > >> Subject: Re: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? > >> >On 4/6/13 3:29 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > >> >>Folks may be able to help know what museums are close by. > >> >> > >> > > >> >Museums are not landfills. > >> > > >> >Think about the fact that the longer the common stuff is around the > >> >more likely it will be that an artifact will already have been > >>acquired > >> >for a collection. > >> > > >> >It is better to be thinking about finding other collectors than > >>hoping > >> >a museum is going to want your stuff at some time in the indefinite > >> >future. > >> > > >> >If you really do have something rare enough a collecting > >>institution > >> >would be interested in it, work out the details ahead of time. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Whilst I am not acting on behalf of MOSI. Manchester, I am pretty > >>sure from > >> conversations I have had with Curatorial staff that they have very > >>specific > >> collection goals. That is any exhibit should help tell the story of > >>computing > >> either North West England, either as part of another industry, or as > >>an > >> Industry in its own right. Display space and storage space is as > >>much a > >> problem for them as for most home collectors (they also have static > >>steam > >> engines, steam locomotives and aeroplanes). So Rob if you have > >>anything > >> which might fulfils those goals let me know and I'll give you a > >>contact. > >> > >> I am personally very sad that they do have equipment which isn't on > >>show > >> but which has vanished from Computing "in the wild", and which would > >>tell > >> a story about computing in the northwest UK, so go here and enter > >> "Computer":- > >> > >> > >>http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/search.php?type=Obj > ec > >> t > >> > >> in the subject search, and not whats in storage.... > > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 15:13:23 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:13:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox 820-II FDC (was Re: Chip 733w01522 on xerox 820-II FDC In-Reply-To: <002501ce32d4$478b4c50$d6a1e4f0$@lazzerini@email.it> from "Enrico Lazzerini" at Apr 6, 13 04:37:33 pm Message-ID: > U1 (74S288) and U2 (74S174) together constitute a "finite state machine" (so > they told to me cause I'm not so expert) whose purpose is to provide a read A finite state machine (sometiems shortend to a 'state machine') is a way of designing and building sequential logic circuits -- that is circuits where the outputs(s) depend not only on the inputs now, but also on previous sets of inputs. The basic idea is tha tthe circuit stores internally a 'state', normally as an n-bit binary number in n D-tyoe flip-flopes (that's the 74LS174 in your circuit, a hex D-type flip-flop). All flip-flops are clocked at the same time to change to a new state, Andthen there is a block of combinatorial logic (a cricuit where the outputs depend only o nthe inouts now, not what they were) which has as inputs the external inptus ot the state machine and the outputs of the D type flip-flops and which produces the inputs to the D-type flip-flops to give the new state. Sievn a ROM is a gnneral combinatorial circuit, you can make a stte machine from a ROM and a set of D-type flip-flops, aas here. > Who wrote that article decided to build itself a FDC controller card for his > xerox 820-II extracting a block of its schematic from a Kaypro-II's > schematic really making very few changes and using a FDC WD1793 + WD9216 for > external separator data. > Due to its small number of components, and having already a WD1797 I'd just > need of a WD9216 (i hope to find it on the Internet yet) and wiring it would > be maybe more simple. The 9216 was a very common data separator about 25 eyars ago. It was used on a lot of PC/XT cloen FDC cards (not on the original IBM one though) and in other machines too. I am pretty sure it was made by several manufacturers. > Last suggestion (always from the so expert Chuck that I thanks so much) > would be to use a WD2797 instead of WD1797, but I'm not a designer and while > i can understand something of all those things it's very hard for me to > change schematics or adjust components. The 2979 is essential a 1797 with an intenral data separator. It works well, but IIRC there are 3 analogue adjustments associated with it (a couple of puse widths and the free-running frequency of a VCO). It's not hard to set these up, but you do need a 'socpe or logic anlyser to do it. The 9216 data separator IIRC needs no external adjustments. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 15:24:17 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:24:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <013c01ce3313$55063b30$ff12b190$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 6, 13 11:08:53 pm Message-ID: > > Sorry to hear about your father. I remember you saying he was not well a > while ago. Alas yes. He had been bedridden for almsot a year and had been in and out of hospital for most of that time (most in hospital). I wanted nothing more than for him to get up, come home, and enjoy his intereests again, but alas that wasn't to be. > > Funnily enough, although my collection is far more modest, I have been > thinking about this a little bit too just lately as I need to make a will. I > think my preference would be a serious collector interested in keeping the > machines running (or getting them to run where I have failed), but I am Yes. I actualyl know a serious collector who shares enough of my interests (not just classic computers) to be able to sort out all my stuff and know what is worth keeping, what he would want ot keep himself, and so on. My problem is that said colelctor is abotu the same age as I am. So it's not at all certain that I will pass away first (and that's not to mention the posibiltiy of accidents). So I want a 'backup' -- somebody or some body that will be around in 30 years tiem and who would take over my stuff, sort it out, keep and restore some fo it and pass on the rest to others who are interested. It appesrs, though, that such orgnaisations do not exist. > interested in any suggestions. My fear with museums is that they would just > go into storage and never be seen or appreciated again. My particular THat is _one_ of my dislikes of museums too. > dilemma is that I would like at least something to remain in the family, but I have no family... > I don't know whether I should encourage my children to sell or give away the > rest since a fair proportion of what I have was given to me, although I have > bought some items. One thing is for sure, I am going to stipulate that > nothing should be just thrown away. I am quite happy t o give the lot unconditionally to a clueful person or organisation. On the grounds that hey will realise that a dozen BBC micros is excessive amd that soem can be gvien away (athought the one with SCSIFS is perhaps a bit rarer...), but that classic PERQs are not that common and PERQ 2T4s are, well,.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 16:00:10 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:00:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: from "Colin Eby" at Apr 7, 13 00:31:44 am Message-ID: > > Tony, > > I'm sorry for your loss as well. Thank you. > > It's interesting to hear people's thoughts on this subject. I have > something like 60 computers of varying kinds. Most of them aren't rare > enough to be museum pieces. Quite a few of them are US only models > which I didn't sell on before moving to the UK. My deal with myself > was to stop collecting (hoarding) and do work with a museum. I think I > do more retro-computing now than I ever did as a collector alone, and on > much more interesting systems. I'd love to think I could just dump them That would not work for me. One tirivial problem is tha there isn't a museum near enoguh for me to get to that would welcome an outsider volunterring to work o ntehir machines. The more major problem is that I did spend soem time at Blethcley Park. I gave up for various reasons, mostly due to the weay the place was run _then_ (It has probably improved now). But wjhen I was workign there I would come home and do _more interesting_ stuff at home that I ever did at the museum. There is also the psychologicval aspect for me. I will happily spend several months producing docuemtnation on an old machine and then repairing it if it is mine. I will not do it for somebody else. And thahe fact that my repair methods seem totally at odds with everyone elese (but they work!),. so I don't really 'fiot in; with other repairers. I;'ve seen the hpoto so the museum at Bletchley Park on the web, and quyite honmestly I reckon I;'ve got more interesting ,machines, more complete machines amd plain more fun machiens than that colleciton. > all on the museum if I fell under a bus, but that's not fair on them. My view is that in many cases the museum policy on acquisitions is fundalmentally broken in that they can't give away or sell stuff they've been given to just anybody,. Thinking of my colelciton I am sure no museum is goign to want a load of BBC micros, or IBM5150s, or. But they might want the PERQs, the P800s, the HP desktop calcualtors, the I2S imaage process/dispal systems, the E&S PS/390, etc, The policy should be there that thay can take the lot and then sell on, or give way, that which they don't want. In case you're wondering about the time it woudl take to sort this out, rememebr I am likely to be owning a house when I pass away. That would ahve to be sold to payu the inherritance tax, but there would be anough money left over to cover the time and trouble it woudl take to move my machines. > Who really needs a NTSC Atari 600XL with a 110 power supply in England? > I might as well bin it for all the use it would be to anyone, or for the > cost of posting it back to the states. And yet, that's the last thing I > want to do. But at the same time, even as I sit here I know the > collection is an albatross weighing on me. I don't even use them > anymore. All my retro-computing energy goes into museum work. None of m! I use my classics all the iime -- literally. I am using oen right now. > y family or work colleagues are interested? so what to do. I don't ahve any family, I don't have any work colleagues. I have several freinds who do sahre my interests though. But the problem is thaty might not outlive me. > Here my solution for what its worth -- eBay the lot, starting now. > many of them at a loss, back to the US. Alternatively, maybe I'll do a That WOULD NOT work for me. Without my clasisc computers, cameras, tools, books, etc I would have _nothing_ to do in my spare time. Absolutely nothing. And I am not going to live like that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 15:38:55 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:38:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: RL drive select plugs. What is magic about 3? In-Reply-To: <1365286355.33876.YahooMailClassic@web120505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Apr 6, 13 03:12:35 pm Message-ID: > > I've been doing a bit with an 11/23+ setup and a few RL drives, and > I've run into something odd. I currently have select plugs 0, 1 and 3. > If I plug in two drives, 0 and 1, I can boot from either one, and once > in RT11, I can access the other one. Easy. If I connect two drives, 0 > and 3, however - I can only use drive 0. All accesses to drive 3 result > in an error. Can't boot from it, can't access it from RT11. Thinking > that maybe the plugs had to be in order, I connected only one drive, > drive 1, and was able to boot it and use it just fine. Then, swapping > the 3 plug into that single drive, can't boot from it. > > And I've shuffled this plug around into a couple of drives, and none > of them work with it. There's no damage to the plug itself, and all the > drives work otherwise. Unfortunately, I don't have enough cables to > connect more than two drives at once. I also don't have a drive 2 plug > to try. There is nothing 'odd' abotu the '3' select plug. The plugs have 2 taps, one on each side, the edges of these tabs can either be plain or cut into. THey oeprate swtich contacts in the ready lamp housing. One edge is never cut, it indicates there's a plug in place. 2 other edges give the drive number ina binary code (in fact, the other 3 edges can be used, but the RL drive only wires up 2 of the contacts. RK06s and RK07s use the same delect lplugs and can be numbered from 0 to 7) WWaht happens if you put the '1' plug in the drive and try to access it as drive 3? if that works, it suggests the controler is not outputting the most signifciant select line. I cna't remembr if the numbero f drives on a cotnrller has to be set when SYSGENing RT11. If it does, it's posible your system is set u pfor 2 drives only. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 16:06:51 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:06:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Apr 6, 13 04:40:26 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/6/13 3:29 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > > Folks may be able to help know what museums are close by. > > > > Museums are not landfills. True enough, and I don't expect them to be. On the other hand perhaps they should be prepared to sell on the more ocmmon items from a donated colelction in order to keep the rare ones(and, indeed, to get the money form the deceased owner's estate). > It is better to be thinking about finding other collectors than > hoping a museum is going to want your stuff at some time in the > indefinite future. > > If you really do have something rare enough a collecting institution > would be interested in it, work out the details ahead of time. I don;t know how the law waorks in other countries, but in the UK if you mention a specific object iin a will, then it's that object, and that object only that is passed on. Not a similar object. So if I said that I leave my Philips P850 to $museum and then by the time I die I have traded the P850 for a P855, tyhe msueum gets nothing and the P855 does nto get preserved. Quite honestly I can;'t update my will every time I change the contents of my colelciton. Findign a collector is the obvious solution, and indeed I ahve done that. But (again, this is the UK,m other countriess mmay be differnet), if said colelctor dies before me ten the will ahs no meaning. Of course if he dies years before me and I am still of sound mind I can make a new will. If not, then again the stuff is not presereved. That is what I want to avoid. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 15:29:48 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:29:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <9873B1DB-5A1C-44FC-B6CD-DC5EE0C50A43@shiresoft.com> from "Guy Sotomayor" at Apr 6, 13 03:10:10 pm Message-ID: > > What I have done for my will was to designate someone who will responsibly > "dispose" of my collection. Here in the 'states another way to handle this is This depends on being reasoanbly certain that said person will outlive you. If I could find such a person with enough knowledge of classic computers, etc to be able to sensibly handle my collection then I would be happy to leave it to them.But alas all my friends -- all the people I know with any interest in such stuff -- are about the same age as I am so they could well pass away before me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 15:40:18 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:40:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> from "Sam O'nella" at Apr 6, 13 10:29:56 pm Message-ID: > > What area are you located again? Folks may be able to help know what > museums are close by. Near London, England. I will probably have ot move soon (to pay the inherritance tax on my father's estate), but am goign to try to remain i nthe London area. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 7 15:45:08 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:45:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at Apr 6, 13 05:52:20 pm Message-ID: Did you really have to quote over 80 lines of text to add one word? ANd then top-post it? > > cameras? Yes, you know. Light-tight boxes containing a suitable substrate (often cellulose acetate, but maybe glass) coated with a sliver halide emulsion. There's a lense system o nthe frotn of said box.... More seriously, I have a number of oolder cameras. Some quite good quality, others less so. Some interesting form the mechnical design, agian otehrs less so. Nothign _spectacualrly rare or valualbe, but certain;y soem fun items. -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 17:13:49 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:13:49 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=5b2=5d=3a=20Tech=20is=20the=20biggest=20problem=20facing=20archiving=20=e2=80=a2=20The=20Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "MG" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 07/04/2013 21:11:40 Subject: Re: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register >On 7-apr-2013 18:22, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>There is further irony in any resistance to the use of mainframes, >>because everyone in IT is talking about virtualisation and utility >>computing (see Introducing Utility Computing, Atos Origin, October >>2006). But both concepts have been around in the mainframe world for >>30 years or more. By providing virtualisation, VMware is doing for >>Intel platforms what VM/370 did onmainframes in the 1970?s. >>Mainframe is a utility service, and has almostalways been so. Many >>advocates of utility services are actually ?reinventingthe mainframe? >>in many aspects of what they seek to achieve. > >So, why is IBM allowing this to happen? Why aren't they there to >give VMware and others hell, perhaps even supply a bit more economical >solution for the /little people/? Why does IBM assume that people >will have the telepathic ability to learn about IBM and its products? IBM sell and support VMWare on their Intel and AMD servers. Where I work we have something like 40 to 50 IBM xSeries Intel servers running VMware. The first line support on these on VMWare is provided by IBM. IBM provide customized versions of VMware that includes support for IBM Hardware. IBM provide an internal USB slot and their servers can be ordered with this pre-loaded with a USB memory stick with the custom VMWare pre-loaded. > >For a supposedly successful platform, with no problems at all (which, >by the way, that earlier Inquirer article of late 2012 doesn't seem >to support), it sure seems relegated to obscurity and extreme niches >at best. > >For a supposedly successful platform, why isn't IBM interested in >making it even more successful and getting more people to use and >perhaps switch to it? Why is IBM building "x" (and "i" and "p" for >that matter), why not /just/ "z"? > > Because of the "suits". By keeping zSeries as a niche product IBM can charge premium prices and keep the profit margins high. When we discarded our Mainframe, a small Multiprise box IBM showed no interest in selling us an upgrade. They are quite happy to keep selling us xSeries servers though. By selling xSeries and iSeries boxes "relatively" cheaply they can sell zSeries as a high reliability, high margin box. I personally think this is what allows zSeries to survive. In my opinion the biggest mistake DEC made was to try and take the Alpha chip down market. It spoilt the brand image. >>Another interesting statistic is average capacity utilization: >>Wintel-based servers: 8-15% >>Unix/RISC: 28-45% >>Mainframes: 65-75% > >Where did you get these figures from? > > They match with the survey we did before we went to VMWare. A VM to Real ration of 10 to 1 is what folks typically achieve when they virtualize a Windows environment. In general you don't need lots of CPU power, you need fast disks and channels. That's why SSD disks, ZFS and multi-teir SANs are one key area of an evolving market place... >>It's also noted that mainframes (zSeries) can and do run at 100% >>utilization for long periods quite happily. Try that with a non- >>mainframe! > >100% utilization, thus with no headroom whatsoever; that's a good >idea in general...? (Regardless of whether a specific platform >would subdue or become less stable, or whatever.) > IBM typically sell you a box with more CPUs in that you need, and charge by CPU power so it makes sense to run those that are enabled pretty near flat out. If you need a boost then they sell you a code to allow you to enable more CPU speed. From:- http://public.dhe.ibm.com/common/ssi/ecm/en/zsd03011usen/ZSD03011USEN.PDF "IBM Capacity Upgrade on Demand (CUoD) provides a permanent increase in processing capacity that can be initiated by the customer. IBM On/Off Capacity on Demand (On/Off CoD) provides temporary capacity needed for short-term spikes in capacity or for testing new applications. Capacity Backup Upgrade (CBU) can help provide reserved emergency backup capacity for multiple processor configurations" > - MG Dave G4UGM From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Apr 7 17:20:48 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 18:20:48 -0400 Subject: Core vs MOS RAM latencies - Re: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> On 07/04/13 5:33 PM, allison wrote: > >>> The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day that was >>> as costly as the base machine if not more. >> I understand that memory was at a premium back then. >> Out of interest, how common was core memory (H223 and similar) in QBUS >> systems? >> Is BBU supported for the MOS memory options? > The older LSI11 systems had it if there was a call for non volatile > memory, the cost was high. > I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle > time than Ram of > the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on the day was under > 1us and dropping. > That's odd, I seem to recall my handbooks claiming lower latencies for (Unibus?) core than the MOS products in the same range, but don't have the right handbook to, uh, hand. Can you verify those latencies from your handbook? --Toby From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 17:44:05 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 00:44:05 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161CF2D.6040003@xs4all.nl> <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5161F6B5.50505@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 23:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > For the record, you have been spouting off for two days about how > dead the mainframe is. You've been doing a lot more than just quoting > an article written by a journalist who knows even less about this stuff > than you do. Most of the time I'm not even asserting things, just stating my own personal observations, predictions and cross-referencing such articles. You may not like it, but you haven't refuted anything of it either. That alone tells me a lot. > YOU have been railing on and on, including your dreaded ad hominem > attacks Show me one, let alone one that preceded any other. > as if it's your personal mission in life to CAUSE the mainframe > industryto die. You're kidding... right? (If I could remotely cause that, on my own, then what does that tell you about that industry?) > You started this pointless drivel by mentioning (not even quoting, > that I recall, just MENTIONING, but I could be wrong about that) an > article published in a good but notoriously "oooh shiny" publication. You haven't refuted a single thing. Not having quoted? (Maybe I too easily assumed that you could read it? Excuse me for that.) > An article, I might add, that was very poorly-researched. Again, what exactly is poorly-researched about it? > IBM doesn't mind. Their customers don't mind. Why do YOU > mind? Actual customers, or invisible ones, like their mainframes and quasi-mainframes are increasingly becoming? If I mind it? No, IBM can die if it wants to. I'm just trying to diffuse and refute mind-boggling IBM propaganda, that I've been hearing for ages. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 17:49:30 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 00:49:30 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161E817.90601@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> <5161E817.90601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5161F7FA.8080305@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 23:41, Dave McGuire wrote: > Obscurity from YOUR "ooh, shiny!" perspective? Your bank > transactions won't be processed on iPads anytime soon. Where did those quotations come from? (Schizophrenic, a bit?) > Why do you think you know more about the mainframe business than > IBM? Pardon me? > It actually IS a good idea for the types of workloads mainframes > process. Then what exactly is this "100%"? > There typically aren't "load spikes" on mainframes as we see in, say, > web servers.ATMs don't get slashdotted. There is a "batch window", > transactions are processed during that time, they know how many there > are, they know how long it takes to process them, and having the machine > sit there underutilized during that time is a waste of very expensive > CPU cycles. But if it's no problem, why not? Also, in an article I read about a video I referenced earlier (about the "GAMEframe" thing of Hoplon in Brazil), they said they had to off-load to "Cell" blades because else they'd stress their "z" too much and it'd become too expensive(!)... So, it sounds a /bit/ murky to me. > If you knew a DAMN THING about what you're spouting off about, > you'd already know this. I hope I didn't raise your blood pressure too much, old timer. It'd be a shame if you got an heart attack over something you're totally not emotional about and are willing to rationally discuss... > But you don't. That breaks my heart. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 7 17:50:49 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 00:50:49 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161E915.9050307@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> <516191AD.7060306@bitsavers.org> <5161E915.9050307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5161F849.7000305@xs4all.nl> On 7-apr-2013 23:45, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/07/2013 04:00 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >> >> A good idea. I have better things to do with my life. > > Agreed. From the same era as IBM's heyday: "Duck and Cover"! - MG From craig at solomonson.net Sun Apr 7 17:53:01 2013 From: craig at solomonson.net (Craig Solomonson) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 17:53:01 -0500 Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> Message-ID: <1016adaa79a87519ef93eff4cdf56511.squirrel@www.solomonson.net> > I'm highjacking this thread. I'm debating starting a museum locally, as we > don't have anything like this in the Indianapolis area. > > For those who have started such endeavors, what are your stories in > getting the ball rolling? I was part of a small group that tried to start a computer museum in the Minneapolis area in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Unfortunately, there were few computer museums to relate to at the time and selling the vision was not always easy. Our break through came when we met with the governor, Rudy Perpich, who had worked for Control Data Corp. He liked the idea and arranged a meeting with Bill Norris of CDC. He also liked the idea and gave his support for the idea along with people and access to the Control Data warehouse containing some early systems for starters if the museum found a home. We approached a couple local museums with the idea of joining with them. Both liked it so much that a small political battle resulted. In the mean time, DEC announced the opening of the Boston Computer Museum and support for opening another museum dwindled. It was a great experience and in that 5 year period, I even collected a few systems with hopes of displaying them. Burlington Northern gave us a Univac III system and Pillsbury gave us a GE timesharing system that was originally at Dartmouth. I also had an operational Bendix G-15 in my classroom. Wished I still had some of these today! I do have about 100 micros yet and many boxes of miscellaneous items that I have started to sort through now that I am retired. I have done a YouTube video with an overview of some interesting items that I collected, if you want to take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDeKUrOpFiU You might want to consider an area science museum and approach them with the idea of having a display area. I wish you luck with your efforts! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 7 17:59:04 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 15:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161CF2D.6040003@xs4all.nl> <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130407155533.R56745@shell.lmi.net> > > I've mostly observed that it's, although perhaps not dead (yet?), > > /rather invisible/ nowadays. I'm not sure what is worse. > IBM doesn't mind. Their customers don't mind. Why do YOU mind? If I had a niche market of five machines, and made a billion dollars on each, I wouldn't be desperate for expansion. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 7 18:13:00 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 16:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <9088A8E7-8C9B-4816-994B-70D6184E02D8@gmail.com> <516074C7.8080406@neurotica.com> <51607B6B.9070409@xs4all.nl> <51607E70.8050101@neurotica.com> <51611380.1080404@neurotica.com> <5161464E.7090801@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, MG wrote: > On 7-apr-2013 8:34, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 04/06/2013 08:07 PM, geneb wrote: >>>>> As far as I'm aware, it's not exactly 'allowed' to run (e.g.) "z" >>>>> 'at home', not even for non-commercial/private reasons and end- >>>>> uses/purposes. >>>> >>>> Wrong again. >>>> >>>> One day I will learn to avoid feeding the trolls. One day. >>>> >>> But today is not that day! Muahahahahahahahahha! >>> >>> *ahem* >> >> And you're absolutely RIGHT. ;) > > > Glad your reinforcements arrived, maybe he can provide you > tactical ad hominem simulated air support from that F-15C > cockpit? > Dave's a big boy, he doesn't need my help. You'll have to work a LOT harder if you want me to join this little spat. My little box of fucks is completly empty and it'll take a lot more than the likes of you to fill it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Apr 7 19:43:59 2013 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 20:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Subject: Re: Mulling a museum Message-ID: Will Donzelli is on target with this on Collections Policy... and I will add a few more things to consider also. 1. If you are not a business person find some to collaborate with. Always good to have grant writer as a fried too! Unless you have a funding organization or group you are going to have to support it. I have seem to may people open things with about a business plan or ability to fund it and think that money will just appear. Remember most people on the street probably could care less about what you are displaying and certainly will not throw any money your way. Develop strategic alliances with educational facilities and Hi Tech Businesses in your area. ========================== 2. Hey! You are going to get duplicate material... you can wither take up valuable display space to stash dupes and pay or off site storage... but..... the BEST! is finding a beta site to stash it but... it is on display there.. If it is a cool item like an extra Altair or PDP-8 have a loan agreement.... especially when dealing with schools ... If you give something to a college and the whims of floor space utilization rear their head... the can just send it to state surplus or in some cases I have heard of... throw it away! So to reiterate, Find cool other places to place things on display which can also act as a funnel to lead people to visit you mother load ... and maintain control of material in off site displays ================= 3. From the standpoint of disaster having your collection in diverse physical locations is a consideration. If you have a chance to pick a spot in the nation somewhere ... do a study of the area.. Take time analyze the possibly of earthquakes, flood, fire, theft, tornados, hurricanes etc... get maps study the geography... Think of things like.... if I build a museum in a nice mountain forested area and there is a raging forest fire... what happens? Think of things like ... is this area in a flood plain and the 100 year flood... will it get me? many times these 100 year floods happen sooner than 100 years! Think of things like.... Will the earthquakes throw the artifacts off the shelves? ====================================== I could go on forever... but there are a couple things to consider. Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC Message: 10 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 17:14:00 -0400 From: William Donzelli To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Mulling a museum Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > I'm highjacking this thread. I'm debating starting a museum locally, as we don't have anything like this in the Indianapolis area. > > For those who have started such endeavors, what are your stories in getting the ball rolling? Plan. Plan. Plan some more. Plan for the distant future. Part of this planning involves a Collections Policy. This is a document that defines the collection - what is to be included, and what is to be turned away. It has been said by many folks over the years that artifacts (hardware) are the easiest things to find, and in time, will completely take over any and all space a museum has. A nice, focused Collection Policy THAT IS ADHERED TO will keep things under control, and keep quality high. Yes, quality is better than quantity. I have been part of a decent number of independent little museums over the years (computer and otherwise, but all being tech related), and nearly all of them have let their collections bloat out of control, due to the lack of a Collections Policy. Trust me - you do not want to get in this situation. Think of all the good stuff later on that has to be passed up because there is no room. Think of the infighting and politics when you need to get rid of things. Think of moving the collection with all the excess when you lose your space. Think of what visitors are looking at. -- Will From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 7 19:58:10 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 20:58:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> There is further irony [...] because everyone in IT is talking about >> virtualisation and [...]. But both concepts have been around in the >> mainframe world for 30 years or more. [...] Indeed. >> By providing virtualisation, VMware is doing for Intel platforms >> what VM/370 did onmainframes in the 1970?s. Is it? How easy is it to run VM-in-VM with VMware? (That's a serious question; I have never even looked at it myself. Work has never required it, and, like all closed-source software, it's simply not under consideration for my home use. Someday I want to learn enough of the x86 hypervisor hardware facilities to build a hypervisor of my own, but so far opportunity and inclination have not coincided for that.) >> Mainframe is a utility service, and has almostalways been so. Many >> advocates of utility services are actually ?reinventingthe >> mainframe? in many aspects of what they seek to achieve. > So, why is IBM allowing this to happen? Allowing? Why would they want to stop it? What's the business case for the massive educational effort that would be required? > Why aren't they there to give VMware and others hell, perhaps even > supply a bit more economical solution for the /little people/? Why should they? Not everyone is interested in going after every possible market. IBM has, apparently, decided that their shareholders are best served by ignoring tiny-to-small sites, instead going after larger sites more or less excusively. And, for suitable values of "best served", I'm not sure they're wrong. > Why does IBM assume that people will have the telepathic ability to > learn about IBM and its products? What "people"? Buyers for large corporations (and other entities of similar size, such as governments) _do_ know about IBM; most of them have, and the rest can get hold of, a sales rep with little-to-no trouble. Said sales rep isn't going to be talking to individuals or small businesses, no, but then we're back to IBM having no interest in selling to them. Given the degree of technical cluelessness I've heard of (and occasionally observed) in the individual and small-to-medium business markets, I'm not at all sure they're wrong to do so; the handholding necessary to support such customers may very well leech away too much of their value to the company to be worth bothering with. (Not all such customers ar elike that, but it's hard to tell in advance which ones are clued.) > For a supposedly successful platform, why isn't IBM interested in > making it even more successful and getting more people to use and > perhaps switch to it? I don't know. See above for some (only partially founded) speculation on the question. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jthecman at netscape.net Sun Apr 7 20:45:26 2013 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> Message-ID: <8D00211E0B25C86-828-252B4@webmail-m263.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Katz To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Sun, Apr 7, 2013 2:31 am Subject: Mulling a museum On Apr 6, 2013, at 7:40 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Museums are not landfills. I'm highjacking this thread. I'm debating starting a museum locally, as we don't have anything like this in the Indianapolis area. For those who have started such endeavors, what are your stories in getting the ball rolling? FYI 1. You need lots of money 2. You need a great board to help make it all work 3. You need a SUPER grant writer 4. Again you need lots of money 5. If you plan on running it yourself get some trainng or take some museum classes at a school I started one back 2003 and still have not got any funding to fully support it. JK From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 7 20:49:25 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201304080149.VAA08484@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I'm sorry for your loss as well. > Thank you. Me too. I have maybe a vague idea what it's like, from losing my own parents, which was, to put it mildly, Not Fun At All. > My view is that in many cases the museum policy on acquisitions is > fundalmentally broken in that they can't give away or sell stuff > they've been given to just anybody,. I agree that this is seriously broken. But, as for the pragmatic matter of what to put in your will, maybe you could, rather than willing your collection to a museum, specify that the museum is to get whatever subset they want, with the rest to be disposed of otherwise? (Of course, this does mean choosing a value of "otherwise". I suggest it just as a workaround for such broken museum policies.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Apr 7 20:58:26 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 21:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <8D00211E0B25C86-828-252B4@webmail-m263.sysops.aol.com> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> <8D00211E0B25C86-828-252B4@webmail-m263.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <201304080158.VAA08569@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Museums are not landfills. ...though some seem to be depressingly similar in some respects. :( > I'm highjacking this thread. I'm debating starting a museum locally, > as we don't have anything like this in the Indianapolis area. I have had people tell me I should start a museum, usually after they've done a walkthrough through my place and seen the computers I have on hand. I saw one message in this thread say there's a difference between a museum and an exhibition of a personal collection, so, in addition to JK's questions, I'd also be interested to know what that difference is; it's possible the latter is closer to what those people have meant. I'd also be interested in any advice for someone contemplating either. I don't know whether either one is something I want to do, but I'd like to at least learn enough to figure out whether they are. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 7 21:12:53 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 19:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1365387173.52766.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ?Well I finally had a chance to get all the pieces together and have a detailed look. Looks like it is a KA780 no upgrade. Only 1 Mb of memory. One RH780. Two DW780 for the two BA11 box's. One BA11 is full of terminal boards and a DUP11. The other just has a lone UDA50. Looks like the only thing missing is the Massbus cable to connect the CPU with the TU78. ? Started to take things apart and clean. Amazing what WD40 and fine steel wool will do to the chassis. It was finally a sunny day today so I got a chance to get a few of my VT100 keyboards and monitor cases out for a little de-yellowing. Only took a few hours in the midday sun to whiten them. ? I want to thank everybody for the positive comments and help. Big shoutout to Ian from the living computer museum who restored their 780 and got it up online for his suggestions and Bob Supnik for his help in finding software. I'll be starting a blog to detail my progress. ? I have to share a humorous note about going to retrieve this system from a storage building in Massachusetts. I just left the Massachusetts Turnpike and was heading back to my home near Niagara Falls NY. While heading west on the NYS Thruway, I saw a mustard colored Volvo coming up in my mirror. He slowed and came along the side of my car waving his arms. I thought something had happened to my trailer. When I looked over, he was leaning over and giving me a very enthusiastic thumbs up sign. Someone actually knew what I had back there! Brian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 21:33:25 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:33:25 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/780 In-Reply-To: <1365387173.52766.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1365387173.52766.YahooMailNeo@web141405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I have to share a humorous note about going to retrieve this system from a > storage > building in Massachusetts. I just left the Massachusetts Turnpike and was heading back > to my home > near Niagara Falls NY. While heading west on the NYS Thruway, I saw > a > mustard colored Volvo coming up in my mirror. He slowed and came along > the side > of my car waving his arms. I thought something had happened to > my trailer. When I > looked over, he was leaning over and giving me a very > enthusiastic thumbs up sign. I had a similar humorous thing happen hauling a Cyber 830. It was cocooned in clear plastic, but still the LARGE lettering on the cabinet was completely readable. At a gas statin stop, a busload of neo-hippies, probably fresh from a Phish show, thought it was the greatest thing they had ever seen. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 21:38:42 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:38:42 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving?= =?windows-1252?Q?_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > Is it? How easy is it to run VM-in-VM with VMware? (That's a serious > question; I have never even looked at it myself. Work has never > required it, and, like all closed-source software, it's simply not > under consideration for my home use. I d not know about VMware, but with z/VM, native on the IBM mainframes, it is fairly common to run three or four nested virtual machines while developing stuff. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 7 23:01:09 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 21:01:09 -0700 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51624105.1060700@sydex.com> On 04/07/2013 11:24 AM, craig at solomonson.net wrote: > I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through > some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room > had a few posters hanging on the wall. IIRC, the Playboy Bunny was the most popular one that I saw. In those days, not suitable for display at work, but a lot of people had copies of the deck. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Mon Apr 8 00:30:35 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:30:35 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <516255FB.406@jwsss.com> On 4/7/2013 7:38 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I d not know about VMware, but with z/VM, native on the IBM > mainframes, it is fairly common to run three or four nested virtual > machines while developing stuff. There is an option for 64 bit systems + the vanderpool vm bit implemented that will allow hypervisors to run nested. I'll put a link to a vmware community posting later. Only thing to point out is that it takes not only the vm assist, but a 64 bit only option. I've not looked into it to quote intel bits, but I do have a couple of 64 bit vm assisted processors that don't support nesting, if you plan to do it study which one you need before wasting money on the wrong processor. When we developed on VM/SP5 we routinely ran everything 2nd level for all of our user work, but had configured all of our working systems to easily be dropped to the hardware and be run standalone. Also one of the guests we developed ran third level frequently on the development machines, but again we had the hardware to have everyone on dedicated 3380's so we could point at them and boot either the VM or the Ultimate system directly if need. the Vmware is usually used from what I've seen for configuring and testing vmware esxi system configurations on a single system before deployment. jim http://communities.vmware.com/docs/DOC-8970 From xmechanic at landcomp.net Mon Apr 8 00:43:50 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 23:43:50 -0600 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51625916.8090408@landcomp.net> On 4/7/13 12:24 PM, craig at solomonson.net wrote: > I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through > some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room > had a few posters hanging on the wall. As I recall, Snoopy was probably the > most popular subject along with "space stuff." I just had to piece these old > posters together and see what I had printed back in 1981. It turns out that > at least 2 of them were from the Princeton University Computer Center Clinic > and done by Samuel P. Harbison in 1973. The third one of the Golden Gate > Bridge is huge (8 ft. wide and 6.5 ft. tall) and no credits were given. Here > are some photos of them for those that are interested: > > > > Golden Gate Bridge (with a PAA airplane) - 96" x 78": > > http://www.solomonson.net/computers/GoldenGate.jpg > > > > One Giant Leap (man on the moon) - 40" x 33": > > http://www.solomonson.net/computers/GiantLeap.jpg > > > > The Moon - 59" x 55": > > http://www.solomonson.net/computers/Moon.jpg > > > > > > > Very cool stuff! Must have taken days, just to print those at the speeds of the average daisy wheel printer in that time period. :) (or teletype if that was the weapon of choice) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From xmechanic at landcomp.net Mon Apr 8 00:46:22 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 23:46:22 -0600 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <51624105.1060700@sydex.com> References: <51624105.1060700@sydex.com> Message-ID: <516259AE.7010804@landcomp.net> On 4/7/13 10:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/07/2013 11:24 AM, craig at solomonson.net wrote: >> I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through >> some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and >> room >> had a few posters hanging on the wall. > > IIRC, the Playboy Bunny was the most popular one that I saw. In those > days, not suitable for display at work, but a lot of people had copies > of the deck. > > --Chuck > > > > Heh heh! Some of the first computer porn available. :D -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From witchy69 at virginmedia.com Sun Apr 7 18:32:25 2013 From: witchy69 at virginmedia.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 00:32:25 +0100 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry to hear about your Dad mate, big hugs from the flatlands up north! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 02:39:57 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:39:57 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=5b3=5d=3a=20Tech=20is=20the=20biggest=20problem=20facing=20archiving=20=e2=80=a2=20The=20Register?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 08/04/2013 03:38:42 Subject: Re: Re: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register >> Is it? How easy is it to run VM-in-VM with VMware? (That's a serious >> question; I have never even looked at it myself. Work has never >> required it, and, like all closed-source software, it's simply not >> under consideration for my home use. > >I d not know about VMware, but with z/VM, native on the IBM >mainframes, it is fairly common to run three or four nested virtual >machines while developing stuff. > Whilst its trivial to run VM within VM on zVM, is this still common? I thought there was still a big hit in performance when you went more than two deep because that's how deep the microded virtualization assists (what used to be callde "SIE assists" on the original ESA boxes) went. So if you are running in LPAR mode (and as I understand things many modern boxes only run in LPAR mode) then you usually can only go two deep in zVM. However on VMWare you don't usually need more than one level. I have only ever used VMWare under VMWare on a training course. Microsofts virtualization "products" Virtual PC and Hyper-V both prohibit VMs under VMs. >-- >Will Dave G4UGM From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 02:47:17 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 00:47:17 -0700 Subject: Grid Compass I or II CCOS ROMs? Message-ID: <51627605.3020604@gmail.com> I know I've asked about this in the past, butI figured I'd try again: Anyone have any idea where to track down ROMs for the Grid Compass I or II (1101 / 1129)? I accidentally formatted my 1129's internal bubble memory tonight (while intending to format an external floppy) and now of course it won't boot. (Doesn't seem to want to try booting from the floppy drive either, unless there's a magical keysequence...) I'm looking for either CCOS or GRiD's version of MS-DOS, which I believe were both available as ROMs for this machine. I'm hoping that this machine will boot from internal ROM, and not just bubble memory (otherwise I've basically destroyed any chance of running this machine again...) I've had very little luck tracking down either software or documentation for this thing (found a few disk images on Dave Dunfield's site). TheRuGRiD Yahoo group specializes mostly in later GRiD machines and has basically no Compass information. Knowing if it's even possible to get this to boot from a floppy would be useful as well... Thanks as always, Josh From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 02:47:32 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:47:32 +0000 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <51625916.8090408@landcomp.net> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Dave Land" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 08/04/2013 06:43:50 Subject: Re: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's >On 4/7/13 12:24 PM, craig at solomonson.net wrote: >>I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting >>through >>some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and >>room >>had a few posters hanging on the wall. As I recall, Snoopy was >>probably the >>most popular subject along with "space stuff." I just had to piece >>these old >>posters together and see what I had printed back in 1981. It turns out >>that >>at least 2 of them were from the Princeton University Computer Center >>Clinic >>and done by Samuel P. Harbison in 1973. The third one of the Golden >>Gate >>Bridge is huge (8 ft. wide and 6.5 ft. tall) and no credits were >>given. Here >>are some photos of them for those that are interested: >> >> >> >>Golden Gate Bridge (with a PAA airplane) - 96" x 78": >> >>http://www.solomonson.net/computers/GoldenGate.jpg >> >> >> >>One Giant Leap (man on the moon) - 40" x 33": >> >>http://www.solomonson.net/computers/GiantLeap.jpg >> >> >> >>The Moon - 59" x 55": >> >> http://www.solomonson.net/computers/Moon.jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >Very cool stuff! Must have taken days, just to print those at the >speeds of the average daisy wheel printer in that time period. :) >(or teletype if that was the weapon of choice) The line printer was the weapon of choice. I seem to think 600 Lines/Minute is typical. So that is about 10 seconds per page. So something like Santa's sleigh and Reindeer could be printed in a couple of minutes. Watching something like that come off was almost hynotic... > >-- Dave Land >Land Computer Service > >Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net Dave G4UGM From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Apr 8 04:03:45 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:03:45 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, allison wrote: > I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle > time than Ram of the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on > the day was under 1us and dropping. Core memory *is* RAM. Christian From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Apr 8 05:07:50 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 06:07:50 -0400 Subject: Core vs MOS RAM latencies - Re: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <516296F6.8090002@verizon.net> On 04/07/2013 06:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 07/04/13 5:33 PM, allison wrote: >> >>>> The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day >>>> that was >>>> as costly as the base machine if not more. >>> I understand that memory was at a premium back then. >>> Out of interest, how common was core memory (H223 and similar) in QBUS >>> systems? >>> Is BBU supported for the MOS memory options? >> The older LSI11 systems had it if there was a call for non volatile >> memory, the cost was high. >> I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle >> time than Ram of >> the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on the day was under >> 1us and dropping. >> > > That's odd, I seem to recall my handbooks claiming lower latencies for > (Unibus?) core than the MOS products in the same range, but don't have > the right handbook to, uh, hand. > > Can you verify those latencies from your handbook? > > --Toby > That likely was not true for Core on any bus. Core to read it you must write it back and the cycle for that is long. MOS memory was far faster and didn't have the write after read requirement. I have little on Unibus as I restrict my collection to Qbus. Allison From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 05:54:11 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 12:54:11 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <20130407155533.R56745@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161CF2D.6040003@xs4all.nl> <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> <20130407155533.R56745@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5162A1D3.6010109@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 0:59, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I've mostly observed that it's, although perhaps not dead (yet?), >>> /rather invisible/ nowadays. I'm not sure what is worse. >> IBM doesn't mind. Their customers don't mind. Why do YOU mind? > > If I had a niche market of five machines, and made a billion dollars on > each, I wouldn't be desperate for expansion. That's usually not how it works, companies always want more. I guess IBM must be very unusual...? - MG From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Apr 8 06:21:50 2013 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 07:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <51625916.8090408@landcomp.net> References: <51625916.8090408@landcomp.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Dave Land wrote: > On 4/7/13 12:24 PM, craig at solomonson.net wrote: >> I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through >> some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room >> had a few posters hanging on the wall. As I recall, Snoopy was probably the >> most popular subject along with "space stuff." I just had to piece these >> old >> posters together and see what I had printed back in 1981. It turns out that >> at least 2 of them were from the Princeton University Computer Center >> Clinic >> and done by Samuel P. Harbison in 1973. The third one of the Golden Gate >> Bridge is huge (8 ft. wide and 6.5 ft. tall) and no credits were given. >> Here >> are some photos of them for those that are interested: >> ... > > Very cool stuff! Must have taken days, just to print those at the speeds of > the average daisy wheel printer in that time period. :) > (or teletype if that was the weapon of choice) The pictures done by Sam Harbison were specifically designed for the IBM line printers of the time, such as the 1403: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1403 Even with overstrike, it wouldn't have taken long to produce an image. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Apr 8 06:32:22 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:32:22 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5162AAC6.4070003@verizon.net> On 04/08/2013 05:03 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, allison wrote: >> I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle >> time than Ram of the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram >> on the day was under 1us and dropping. > > Core memory *is* RAM. > Pedantically correct. Generally usage is core is magnetic core, ram is mos or other technology. Used to be a time when core meant system memory regardless of type. So in 1973 usage your laptop has 4kilomegabytes of core. (or words depending on organization) Then again thinking more of the PDP-8 is the whole box the cpu or are the prime 3 boards the CPU?? Allison > Christian > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 06:39:12 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 12:39:12 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Re=5B3=5D=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8 April 2013 08:39, Dave wrote: > > Microsofts > virtualization "products" Virtual PC and Hyper-V both prohibit VMs under > VMs. I am not sure they "prohibit" it, but Hyper-V uses the CPU's hardware virtualisation features. It does not and cannot do software virtualisation. VMware and VirtualBox can do S/W virtualisation, so in principle, you can run one copy under another, stacked arbitrarily deep - as deep as performance allows, anyway. VMware /invented/ S/W virtualisation of x86, thus "breaking" the Popek & Goldberg requirements. It ran x86 ring 0 code through a parser, and if it did "unclean" activity that would violate virtual machine integrity, it ran the code in a software emulator, just like SimH or Charon-VAX does. Slow, but effective, and as the CEO of Connectix (the original creators of VirtualPC) told me personally, "you'll find that, when emulating x86 on x86, the ISAs are a really remarkably good match - so the emulation speed is pretty good." ;?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 06:53:19 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:53:19 -0400 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/05/2013 03:22 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > >> It's the new improved "dynamic search algorithm". Go back and do >> the query again from the same machine. The results won't be the same. >> "Recent" updates that Google turned on that supposedly look at the >> totality of your (and apparently other's) recent internet activity to >> post and rank results... > > More to the point, even when I put a term in quotes, Google will still > insist on grabbing things "like" it, often ahead of verbatim results. > This really throws a monkey wrench into trying to come up with precise > searches. > > Perhaps an expanded notation is needed as in "apple:fruit" to sift out > the edible kind. Have you used the "verbatim search" feature? Peace... Sridhar From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 06:10:18 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 06:10:18 -0500 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <51624105.1060700@sydex.com> References: <51624105.1060700@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5162A59A.6030108@gmail.com> On 04/07/2013 11:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/07/2013 11:24 AM, craig at solomonson.net wrote: >> I ran across some old computer art from the 1970's while sorting through >> some old boxes in storage. It seems like nearly every computer lab and room >> had a few posters hanging on the wall. > > IIRC, the Playboy Bunny was the most popular one that I saw. In those > days, not suitable for display at work, but a lot of people had copies of > the deck. That was probably the one that I remember being routinely hurled around at peoples' terminals (much later, early '90s) via the Unix write command. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 8 07:21:04 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 08:21:04 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem?= =?UTF-8?Q?_facing_archiving_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> MG wrote: >On 6-apr-2013 23:29, William Donzelli wrote: >> What you say is true - most people, even professionals, do not know >> what a mainframe was or is. The problem is that you are not observing >> things as they are. Much of this is due to the outlook that Unix (and >> Windows) people have - you assume the mainframe is dead, so you look >> no further, and continue assuming the mainframe is dead. The >mainframe >> will not find you, and will not inform you. > >Not how capitalism typically works, though. > > >> In the mainframe market, being invisible has advantages. > >In the /market/ market, it has serious disadvantages. > > But you don't seem to understand that IBM and other mainframe guys don't _want_ to be in thee mass market with that big hardware... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 8 07:42:09 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 08:42:09 -0400 Subject: Core vs MOS RAM latencies - Re: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <516296F6.8090002@verizon.net> References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> <516296F6.8090002@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5162BB21.2050100@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/04/13 6:07 AM, allison wrote: > On 04/07/2013 06:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 07/04/13 5:33 PM, allison wrote: >>> >>>>> The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day >>>>> that was >>>>> as costly as the base machine if not more. >>>> I understand that memory was at a premium back then. >>>> Out of interest, how common was core memory (H223 and similar) in QBUS >>>> systems? >>>> Is BBU supported for the MOS memory options? >>> The older LSI11 systems had it if there was a call for non volatile >>> memory, the cost was high. >>> I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle >>> time than Ram of >>> the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on the day was under >>> 1us and dropping. >>> >> >> That's odd, I seem to recall my handbooks claiming lower latencies for >> (Unibus?) core than the MOS products in the same range, but don't have >> the right handbook to, uh, hand. >> >> Can you verify those latencies from your handbook? >> >> --Toby >> > That likely was not true for Core on any bus. Core to read it you must > write it back and the > cycle for that is long. MOS memory was far faster and didn't have the > write after read > requirement. I am sure you're right, but I also remember this being quoted the other way around in the handbook's numbers. (I am sure it's not related to bus type, just that I was probably working on an 11/34a when I noticed this, so probably out of a Unibus handbook.) --Toby > > I have little on Unibus as I restrict my collection to Qbus. > > Allison > > From dave13 at dunfield.com Mon Apr 8 09:19:50 2013 From: dave13 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 09:19:50 -0500 Subject: Grid Compass I or II CCOS ROMs? Message-ID: <5162C3F6.27546.1193A14@dave13.dunfield.com> >I know I've asked about this in the past, butI figured I'd try again: >Anyone have any idea where to track down ROMs for the Grid Compass I or >II (1101 / 1129)? I accidentally formatted my 1129's internal bubble >memory tonight (while intending to format an external floppy) and now of >course it won't boot. (Doesn't seem to want to try booting from the >floppy drive either, unless there's a magical keysequence...) According to the manual: "To load the operating system from Floppy Disk or Portable Floppy, turn on the computer while holding down the F (for Floppy Disk) key. If both a floppy disk and a portable floppy are attached to your computer and you want to start up from the portable floppy, open the door to the floppy disk drive before turning on the computer." You can also use 'H' to force a boot from a hard drive, otherwise it boots from configured primary storage which is usually Bubble. Dave -- dave13 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield System/Firmware development services: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield From steve at tronola.com Mon Apr 8 06:44:05 2013 From: steve at tronola.com (Steve Lafferty) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:44:05 -0400 Subject: Rumors of the Mainframe's death are greatly exaggerated Message-ID: <201304081144.r38BiAHA013960@mx1.ezwind.net> >Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:16:33 -0700 (PDT) >From: Fred Cisin >Ken Olsen (DEC) once said that there was only need for half a dozen. So >long as there is still need for half a dozen, then it ain't dead! --- It sounds like you are referring to the quote which is attributed to Howard Aiken (NOT Ken Olsen): "Only six electronic digital computers would be required to satisfy the computing needs of the entire United States." (Aiken was also known for such prescient positions as being religiously opposed to storing instructions and data in the same memory space.) Steve L. From rickb at bensene.com Mon Apr 8 08:32:24 2013 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 06:32:24 -0700 Subject: Computer ASCII Text Art from the 1970's In-Reply-To: <51625916.8090408@landcomp.net> References: <51625916.8090408@landcomp.net> Message-ID: Dave Land wrote: > > Very cool stuff! Must have taken days, just to print those at the speeds of > the average daisy wheel printer in that time period. :) (or teletype if that was > the weapon of choice) > Typically these were printed on high-speed line printers that ran from 600 to 1200 (or more) lines per minute. At these speeds, these didn't take all that long to print. They did, though, use up a lot of ribbon ink, which is why a lot of computer operators didn't like it when users would spew these out to the (usually located in the machine room) line printers. Many times, when I was an operator, I would kill off jobs printing these to the printer simply because of the wear and tear on the printer, and the ribbon use. I was authorized to kill these kinds of print jobs for these reasons. The jobs were pretty easy to identify by ear, as the printer would make rather unusual noises when printing these kinds of things because of the overprinting used to make the different shading. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From sales at elecplus.com Mon Apr 8 08:46:32 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 08:46:32 -0500 Subject: Festo FPC-202 PLC Message-ID: <012d01ce345f$7ab60610$70221230$@com> What makes 1 machine worth $1000 much more than the other, if they are both identical? http://www.ebay.com/itm/FESTO-ELECTRONICS-FPC-202-TN-008381-TYP-E-FPC-202-PN -31342-/160938881753?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 &hash=item2578b472d9 http://www.barcodemuseum.com/Festo/FPC202.html There are several on eBay for $100 or less. _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6231 - Release Date: 04/07/13 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 8 09:19:40 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 10:19:40 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161CF2D.6040003@xs4all.nl> <5161E7E0.8080901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5162D1FC.10108@sbcglobal.net> On 04/07/2013 05:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/07/2013 03:55 PM, MG wrote: >>> For those that say the mainframe (specifically IBM 360/370/390/z-series >>> architecture) is dead, I would say not. >> >> For the record, /I/ didn't say it was dead; I was mostly quoting >> others and also referenced an article. > > For the record, you have been spouting off for two days about how dead the > mainframe is. You've been doing a lot more than just quoting an article > written by a journalist who knows even less about this stuff than you do. > > YOU have been railing on and on, including your dreaded ad hominem attacks, > as if it's your personal mission in life to CAUSE the mainframe industry to > die. You started this pointless drivel by mentioning (not even quoting, that > I recall, just MENTIONING, but I could be wrong about that) an article > published in a good but notoriously "oooh shiny" publication. An article, I > might add, that was very poorly-researched. > Actually, I posted the link to the article; just was something interesting to read. While, yes, the deatils in it may be/ are a bit fuzzy; the overall idea of how to best archive computer data (programs, documents, etc...) is an interesting never-ending issue. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Apr 8 09:44:01 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 10:44:01 -0400 Subject: Core vs MOS RAM latencies - Re: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5162BB21.2050100@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> <516296F6.8090002@verizon.net> <5162BB21.2050100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5162D7B1.7000706@verizon.net> On 04/08/2013 08:42 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 08/04/13 6:07 AM, allison wrote: >> On 04/07/2013 06:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> On 07/04/13 5:33 PM, allison wrote: >>>> >>>>>> The fact that it had 4MB of ram was uncommon as back in the day >>>>>> that was >>>>>> as costly as the base machine if not more. >>>>> I understand that memory was at a premium back then. >>>>> Out of interest, how common was core memory (H223 and similar) in >>>>> QBUS >>>>> systems? >>>>> Is BBU supported for the MOS memory options? >>>> The older LSI11 systems had it if there was a call for non volatile >>>> memory, the cost was high. >>>> I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle >>>> time than Ram of >>>> the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on the day was >>>> under >>>> 1us and dropping. >>>> >>> >>> That's odd, I seem to recall my handbooks claiming lower latencies for >>> (Unibus?) core than the MOS products in the same range, but don't have >>> the right handbook to, uh, hand. >>> >>> Can you verify those latencies from your handbook? >>> >>> --Toby >>> >> That likely was not true for Core on any bus. Core to read it you must >> write it back and the >> cycle for that is long. MOS memory was far faster and didn't have the >> write after read >> requirement. > > I am sure you're right, but I also remember this being quoted the > other way around in the handbook's numbers. (I am sure it's not > related to bus type, just that I was probably working on an 11/34a > when I noticed this, so probably out of a Unibus handbook.) > There is one way that _may_ and the PDP-11 may take advantage of it... PDP11 does many operation on memory (other than instruction fetch) as READ/Modify/Write and that can be contained in one core cycle. The ya but... for NPR (aka DMA) each location must be cycled completely with core and the general access rate is slower as you must finish writing one location before proceeding to the next. Allison > --Toby > >> >> I have little on Unibus as I restrict my collection to Qbus. >> >> Allison >> >> > > From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 09:50:27 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 16:50:27 +0200 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5162D933.1000105@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 13:53, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Have you used the "verbatim search" feature? > > Peace... Sridhar LOL - MG From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 10:04:02 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:04:02 -0400 Subject: Festo FPC-202 PLC In-Reply-To: <012d01ce345f$7ab60610$70221230$@com> References: <012d01ce345f$7ab60610$70221230$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > What makes 1 machine worth $1000 much more than the other, if they are both > identical? Chutzpah. -ethan From sales at elecplus.com Mon Apr 8 11:06:45 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:06:45 -0500 Subject: vintage items available Message-ID: <00ae01ce3473$115ffdb0$341ff910$@com> I am NOT associated with the seller or the products; please contact him directly if you are interested. WTS the following items from our inventory: 1 New F209-8925-jrb Vintage Burroughs Computer Co. T1500 Check Encoder Encoding Machine 1 New J205-9505-CR Vintage Heath Computer Component 8 Bit VGA Board 150-307-1 1 New Jrb-C410-124 Vintage Pacific Recorders PR&E TI-2 Tape Interface _____ Mike Zabezhinsky Oceantech 1313 Winter St NE (612) 331-4456 email: mike at oceantechonline.com _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6232 - Release Date: 04/08/13 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 8 11:07:17 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 09:07:17 -0700 Subject: Core vs MOS RAM latencies - Re: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5162EB35.20600@sydex.com> On 04/07/2013 03:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > That's odd, I seem to recall my handbooks claiming lower latencies for > (Unibus?) core than the MOS products in the same range, but don't have > the right handbook to, uh, hand. I don't know from UNIBUS, but the CDC 7600 used 270 nsec core, which, in 1969 was much faster than MOS. The 7600 used a 10-way interleave for CP memory, which allowed for an effective 27.5 nsec cycle time. The PPs didn't interleave memory and one quirk of the machine was that it was possible for very tight loops to overheat a location in core, causing parity errors. A fix was eventually used that effectively inserted a "wait state" if any location was hit repeatedly too frequently. The "exchange jump" on the upper CDC systems (6000 and 7000) used a read-modify-write cycle to swap the contents of the registers with an area in memory. It was the fastest way to save and reload the enire register set (using non-privileged instructions was far more time-consuming, due to an odd trick used to save and restore the first register of a set--often used as a quiz to new programmers). --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 8 12:13:59 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 10:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem?= =?UTF-8?Q?_facing_archiving_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> Message-ID: <20130408100524.T70422@shell.lmi.net> > > The mainframe will not find you, and will not inform you. Maybe not with version x.0, but version x.1 runs a background process qualifying leads, and it can find you, IF IT WANTS TO. That's why the calculations rated the supercomputer at 16318 iPads, instead of 16384. If your lead does qualify, it doesn't need to bother informing you; just issue a work order and an invoice. > But you don't seem to understand that IBM and other mainframe guys > don't _want_ to be in thee mass market with that big hardware... I don't claim to understand IBM. They entered MICRO-computers late, and now seem to have abandoned that market. Is IBM motivated by capitalism? Or world domination? How many mainframes will it take for the InfoSPhere? From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 12:36:32 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 10:36:32 -0700 Subject: Grid Compass I or II CCOS ROMs? In-Reply-To: <5162C3F6.27546.1193A14@dave13.dunfield.com> References: <5162C3F6.27546.1193A14@dave13.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <51630020.10406@gmail.com> On 4/8/2013 7:19 AM, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> I know I've asked about this in the past, butI figured I'd try again: >> Anyone have any idea where to track down ROMs for the Grid Compass I or >> II (1101 / 1129)? I accidentally formatted my 1129's internal bubble >> memory tonight (while intending to format an external floppy) and now of >> course it won't boot. (Doesn't seem to want to try booting from the >> floppy drive either, unless there's a magical keysequence...) > According to the manual: > > "To load the operating system from Floppy Disk or Portable Floppy, turn > on the computer while holding down the F (for Floppy Disk) key. > > If both a floppy disk and a portable floppy are attached to your computer > and you want to start up from the portable floppy, open the door to the > floppy disk drive before turning on the computer." > > You can also use 'H' to force a boot from a hard drive, otherwise it > boots from configured primary storage which is usually Bubble. > > Dave > Excellent -- it looks like I'm up and running again. Thanks! I don't suppose that manual you're referring to has been scanned? I have yet to find a copy of the user's manual in any form and it'd be nice to have a copy... Thanks again, Josh From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 12:36:59 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 17:36:59 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=5b2=5d=3a=20Tech=20is=20the=20biggest=20problem=20facing=20archiving=20=e2=80=a2=20The=20Register?= In-Reply-To: <5162A1D3.6010109@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Dave G4UGM ------ Original Message ------ From: "MG" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 08/04/2013 11:54:11 Subject: Re: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register >On 8-apr-2013 0:59, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>I've mostly observed that it's, although perhaps not dead (yet?), >>>>/rather invisible/ nowadays. I'm not sure what is worse. >>> IBM doesn't mind. Their customers don't mind. Why do YOU mind? >> >>If I had a niche market of five machines, and made a billion dollars >>on >>each, I wouldn't be desperate for expansion. > >That's usually not how it works, companies always want more. >I guess IBM must be very unusual...? > I don't think so. There are plenty of companies where production is deliberately limited to keep the price high. > - MG From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 12:40:21 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 17:40:21 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=5b3=5d=3a=20Tech=20is=20the=20biggest=20problem=20facing=20archiving=20=e2=80=a2=20The=20Register?= In-Reply-To: <20130408100524.T70422@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Dave G4UGM ------ Original Message ------ From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 08/04/2013 18:13:59 Subject: Re: Re: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register >> > The mainframe will not find you, and will not inform you. > >Maybe not with version x.0, but version x.1 runs a background process >qualifying leads, and it can find you, IF IT WANTS TO. That's why the >calculations rated the supercomputer at 16318 iPads, instead of 16384. >If your lead does qualify, it doesn't need to bother informing you; >just issue a work order and an invoice. > >> But you don't seem to understand that IBM and other mainframe guys >> don't _want_ to be in thee mass market with that big hardware... > >I don't claim to understand IBM. >They entered MICRO-computers late, >and now seem to have abandoned that market. > They sold that division to Lenovo , but they still provide the support infrastructure, at least in the UK... >Is IBM motivated by capitalism? Or world domination? >How many mainframes will it take for the InfoSPhere? > > > > > From sales at elecplus.com Mon Apr 8 13:59:54 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 13:59:54 -0500 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 Message-ID: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> Does anybody know anything about this machine? Not even a keyboard or monitor port on it! Pics are here: https://plus.google.com/photos/106111250846948401252/albums/5864544551344799 681?banner=pwa _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6232 - Release Date: 04/08/13 From sales at elecplus.com Mon Apr 8 14:38:40 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 14:38:40 -0500 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> Message-ID: <024601ce3490$abd96850$038c38f0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 2:00 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 Does anybody know anything about this machine? Not even a keyboard or monitor port on it! Pics are here: https://plus.google.com/photos/106111250846948401252/albums/5864544551344799 681?banner=pwa Just had a VERY nice conversation with Tom from Intergraph tech support. Needless to say, this has been obsolete for many years. It was a plotter server, ran Clix (proprietary version of Unix), the largest hdd it would take was a 600mb 68-pin SCSI. It does have a 360kb floppy. Communication is through the RS-232 port in VT-220 mode only. IF he can find the keys, software, and docs for this old beast, he will email me back. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6232 - Release Date: 04/08/13 From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 14:59:03 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 21:59:03 +0200 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> Message-ID: <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 20:59, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Does anybody know anything about this machine? > > Not even a keyboard or monitor port on it! > > Pics are here: > https://plus.google.com/photos/106111250846948401252/albums/5864544551344799 > 681?banner=pwa The exterior design reminds me a bit of an Intergraph CLIPPER UNIX ("CLIX") system I used to have (and regret having parted with, unknowingly, as a teen running out of space). - MG From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 8 14:18:45 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 20:18:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Apr 8, 13 00:32:25 am Message-ID: > > Sorry to hear about your Dad mate, big hugs from the flatlands up north! Thank you. As I said, he;d not been well for quite some time (although fortunately his brain was good up until the end, the day before he died I had a long chat with him in the hospital about photography and he was certainly still acting logically). Towards the eend, though I felt it was more a case of 'wehen he passes away' and not 'if...' That said it was stil la shock when it happeend. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 8 14:29:04 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 20:29:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: <201304080149.VAA08484@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Apr 7, 13 09:49:25 pm Message-ID: > > >> I'm sorry for your loss as well. > > Thank you. > > Me too. I have maybe a vague idea what it's like, from losing my own > parents, which was, to put it mildly, Not Fun At All. HTnak you. I most certianly is not fun... Sorting out his estate, paying the necessary taxes (which will involve me selling the house and moving...) is not fun. Even less fun is being on my own all the time. The last was made slightly easier by the fact that my fatehr was in hospital a lot in the least year so I got used to doing everything myself. Even so, I visitied him every day and had many interesting coverestaions which I certainly miss. > > > My view is that in many cases the museum policy on acquisitions is > > fundalmentally broken in that they can't give away or sell stuff > > they've been given to just anybody,. > > I agree that this is seriously broken. But, as for the pragmatic > matter of what to put in your will, maybe you could, rather than > willing your collection to a museum, specify that the museum is to get > whatever subset they want, with the rest to be disposed of otherwise? > (Of course, this does mean choosing a value of "otherwise". I suggest > it just as a workaround for such broken museum policies.) Yes. That essentailly is what I have been asking for. My problems are absically : I have some quite rare machines and other artefacts, along with some very common ones. I also have things which although wuite common are certainly useful (tools, test gear, etc). For obvious reasons I want as much of it as possible to be presereed and enjoyed after I am gone. Now, if I leavee it to a person (which is, and will remain, my first choice), there is the possibilty that daid person wil ldie before me. In which case the will is worthless. So what I am looking for is an organisation which will be arorund when I die (which might well be in 40 or more years time) and which will take what it wants from my stuff and pass the rest on to other people or organisations. But such an organisation does nto seem to exist. Oh well, I tried. -tony From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 15:04:48 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:04:48 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516322E0.3000005@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 19:36, Dave wrote: > I don't think so. There are plenty of companies where production > is deliberately limited to keep the price high. A very lamentable practice, I must say. (I doubt anyone would care, I'm just a /little person/.) - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 15:14:48 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:14:48 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51632538.7020602@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 0:13, Dave wrote: > IBM sell and support VMWare on their Intel and AMD servers. Why don't they sell more z/VM on their "z" things instead of VMware on "x" things? I mean, if mainframes are so future-proof, desirable and perfect. > Because of the "suits". By keeping zSeries as a niche product IBM > can charge premium prices and keep the profit margins high. But wouldn't that mean that they're trying to line their pockets, fill their wallets and freeload, milking out in so far things can (still?) be milked out? > When we discarded our Mainframe, a small Multiprise box IBM showed > no interest in selling us an upgrade. They are quite happy to keep > selling us xSeries servers though. By selling xSeries and iSeries > boxes "relatively" cheaply they can sell zSeries as a high reliability, > high margin box. But why would they if more andm ore are going to "i" and "x"? > I personally think this is what allows zSeries to survive. Do you know for sure, though? Some articles I've read seem to suggest otherwise. > In my opinion the biggest mistake DEC made was to try and take the > Alpha chip down market. It spoilt the brand image. That's the first time I heard anyone say this before... Most people complain that it was overpriced and (still) to hard to obtain, along with (of course) a poor software library (e.g. under AXP versions of Windows). >>> Another interesting statistic is average capacity utilization: >>> Wintel-based servers: 8-15% >>> Unix/RISC: 28-45% >>> Mainframes: 65-75% >> >> Where did you get these figures from? >> >> > They match with the survey we did before we went to VMWare. Do you remember where it may be. If so, could you please point me to the results of that survey? > IBM typically sell you a box with more CPUs in that you need, and charge > by CPU power so it makes sense to run those that are enabled pretty near > flat out. If you need a boost then they sell you a code to allow you to > enable more CPU speed. HP seems to be offering that as well (also "pay-per-use" and other setups). But that's what I mean, what is IBM doing to make sure that they still 'stand out' and are 'ahead of the curve'? To me, as a spectator, it seems like it's going down hill. It's slowly becoming a bi-polar, x86 and ARM, world. In my view, IBM, HP, Oracle, etc. aren't really fighting it very hard either. Maybe IBM a bit more than the latter two, but maybe it's even too much for them (not even so much that they're allowing to let it happen). - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 15:25:22 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:25:22 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> Message-ID: <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 14:21, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > But you don't seem to understand that IBM and other mainframe > guys don't _want_ to be in thee mass market with that big hardware... Or maybe they don't want people (and the /little people/ in particular) to find out that they've been providing the "mainframe" backbone for all those /nice/ bailed-out banks, bailed out in the last years in America and Europe, with the /little people/'s tax-payer money...? - MG From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 8 15:37:38 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 16:37:38 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> On 04/08/2013 04:25 PM, MG wrote: > On 8-apr-2013 14:21, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> But you don't seem to understand that IBM and other mainframe >> guys don't _want_ to be in thee mass market with that big hardware... > > Or maybe they don't want people (and the /little people/ in particular) > to find out that they've been providing the "mainframe" backbone for > all those /nice/ bailed-out banks, bailed out in the last years in > America and Europe, with the /little people/'s tax-payer money...? > Hrmm? I thought the MandrakeOT list was the only place members wore shiny hats of tin? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From tsg at bonedaddy.net Mon Apr 8 15:41:18 2013 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 16:41:18 -0400 Subject: Who might want my collections (but not yet!)? In-Reply-To: References: <201304080149.VAA08484@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20130408204118.GC23023@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Tony Duell [130408 16:17]: > > > > >> I'm sorry for your loss as well. > > > Thank you. I'm sorry for your loss as well. [..] > My problems are absically : > > I have some quite rare machines and other artefacts, along with some very > common ones. I also have things which although wuite common are certainly > useful (tools, test gear, etc). > > For obvious reasons I want as much of it as possible to be presereed and > enjoyed after I am gone. > > Now, if I leavee it to a person (which is, and will remain, my first > choice), there is the possibilty that daid person wil ldie before me. In > which case the will is worthless. > > So what I am looking for is an organisation which will be arorund when I > die (which might well be in 40 or more years time) and which will take > what it wants from my stuff and pass the rest on to other people or > organisations. > > But such an organisation does nto seem to exist. Oh well, I tried. > > -tony First of all, the usual disclaimers, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. I haven't even stayed in a Holiday Inn Express (ever, not just last night.) I'm in the US and not the UK and don't know how estate law works there (though we're both common law countries starting from the same point so maybe some of it applies.) But I have done estate planning here in the US (northeast, MA and NH.) I have a number of collections which I hope to provide a share of to my wife and the rest of the shares to my children. I would think in your case you could set up all of your "collection" (specified in suitable general legalese so that it doesn't require updating your will every time you add or dispose of an item in your "collection") to transfer to a trust that is created upon your death. You can name trustees (hopefully more than one) in the order you wish them and if one is not alive then another can become trustee. To handle the case of all your trustees predeceding you can make arrangements with lawyers offices who generally make a business of being "trustees-for-pay." (I don't know if they have to be lawyers, it doesn't seem like a requirement as long as whatever entity it is can survive you, but the case here in the US in my experience.) You'd have to reach some agreement on how they'd be paid. Perhaps, they can sell items in your collection to pay themselves, or get prepaid, get paid out of other assets you might have outside of the "collection," etc. You could set terms of the trust such that the trustee should offer the collection first to museum A then museum B then for the cost of shipping on this mailing list (if it exists) or any suitable public medium, etc. Of course the tricky bit will be the arrangement with your "last resort" trustee. Another option here is to create an LLC and transfer the entire "collection" to it with you as the manager and sole member. Then in your will specify to whom shares of the LLC will pass. Here in the US there are companies that can be hired to manage the LLC as well in case there is no one else surviving. This can be used as a way to divide your "collection" between more than one entity without specifying specific pieces (with all that entails for issues for the shareholders in the future,) but that doesn't seem to be your problem. Or how about trying to find a number of younger individuals with the same interests as you, becoming friends if you vet them to your liking, and then use them as trustees. Or just a larger number of any age friends with the idea that the chances of someone surviving you goes up the more trustees you get? FWIW. Regards, Todd From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 15:53:33 2013 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 22:53:33 +0200 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I wish there was an Intergraph wiki or short summary of models with specs. Maybe I would even choose what I would like to want, if any. -- Ola Hughson From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 8 16:06:40 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 17:06:40 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Gates_and_Allen_reshoot_historic_1981?= =?windows-1252?Q?_Microsoft_photo_=95_The_Register?= Message-ID: <51633160.5010008@sbcglobal.net> Interesting photo redone, er reshot... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/04/gates_allen_reshoot_photo/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 16:28:28 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 17:28:28 -0400 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > I wish there was an Intergraph wiki or short summary of models with > specs. Maybe I would even choose what I would like to want, if any. Intergraphs are the great forgotten workstations using the great forget microprocessor. But then, Intergraph has been complete dicks about being hobbyist friendly. -- Will From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 16:40:20 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 23:40:20 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 22:37, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Hrmm? I thought the MandrakeOT list was the only place members > wore shiny hats of tin? The bail-outs are an 'illusion', you're telling me? (And /I/ am the one wearing a tinfoil hat...?!) Have you been living under/inside a "mainframe" all that time, or so? - MG From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 16:42:07 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 21:42:07 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?q?Re=5b2=5d=3a=20Tech=20is=20the=20biggest=20problem=20facing=20archiving=20=e2=80=a2=20The=20Register?= In-Reply-To: <51632538.7020602@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I do hate answering the obvious trolling, but I am weak willed so some answers in lin ------ Original Message ------ From: "MG" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 08/04/2013 21:14:48 Subject: Re: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ? The Register >On 8-apr-2013 0:13, Dave wrote: >>IBM sell and support VMWare on their Intel and AMD servers. > >Why don't they sell more z/VM on their "z" things instead of VMware >on "x" things? I mean, if mainframes are so future-proof, desirable >and perfect. > > They are big and expensive and difficult to justify for a small business? Even with "Capacity on Demand" the entry level prices are such that an SME (google for what percentage of the market are SME) can't afford to get on the ladder. There is a lot more to VMWare (and Hyper-V) than just Virtualization... >>Because of the "suits". By keeping zSeries as a niche product IBM >>can charge premium prices and keep the profit margins high. > >But wouldn't that mean that they're trying to line their pockets, >fill their wallets and freeload, milking out in so far things can >(still?) be milked out? > I can't possibly comment... ... but others say VMWare is getting expensive compared to the Microsoft Hyper-V. > >>When we discarded our Mainframe, a small Multiprise box IBM showed >>no interest in selling us an upgrade. They are quite happy to keep >>selling us xSeries servers though. By selling xSeries and iSeries >>boxes "relatively" cheaply they can sell zSeries as a high >>reliability, >>high margin box. > >But why would they if more andm ore are going to "i" and "x"? > > >>I personally think this is what allows zSeries to survive. > >Do you know for sure, though? Some articles I've read seem to >suggest otherwise. > > No one outside IBM knows for sure. Getting figures for how many zSeries boxes in use is pretty challenging.. >>In my opinion the biggest mistake DEC made was to try and take the >>Alpha chip down market. It spoilt the brand image. > >That's the first time I heard anyone say this before... Most people >complain that it was overpriced and (still) to hard to obtain, along >with (of course) a poor software library (e.g. under AXP versions of >Windows). > I don't remember it being hard to obtain. I think the "overpriced" argument only appeared when they produced the cheaper "windows only" servers. Poor software library was also an issue, so whilst you could get the Microsoft Exchange server on Alpha, you need an Intel box to run the Lotus Notes and Profs/SNADS connectors. >>>>Another interesting statistic is average capacity utilization: >>>>Wintel-based servers: 8-15% >>>>Unix/RISC: 28-45% >>>>Mainframes: 65-75% >>> >>>Where did you get these figures from? >>> >>> >>They match with the survey we did before we went to VMWare. > >Do you remember where it may be. If so, could you please point me >to the results of that survey? > > Sorry it was a survey of our internal sever estate, so its not available on the public domain. >>IBM typically sell you a box with more CPUs in that you need, and >>charge >>by CPU power so it makes sense to run those that are enabled pretty >>near >>flat out. If you need a boost then they sell you a code to allow you >>to >>enable more CPU speed. > >HP seems to be offering that as well (also "pay-per-use" and other >setups). > >But that's what I mean, what is IBM doing to make sure that they >still 'stand out' and are 'ahead of the curve'? To me, as a >spectator, it seems like it's going down hill. > >It's slowly becoming a bi-polar, x86 and ARM, world. In my view, >IBM, HP, Oracle, etc. aren't really fighting it very hard either. >Maybe IBM a bit more than the latter two, but maybe it's even too >much for them (not even so much that they're allowing to let it >happen). > I feel Oracle (Sun as was) is going the same way as IBM zSeries. Not only has our Mainframe gone but also most of our Oracle (SUN) servers. VMWare lets us deliver Linux or Windows VMs as a service. Ring me up in the morning and I'll usually have a new Red Hat or Windows server up and running by lunch time ready for you to install your apps on. (it could be made quicker but I don't do enough to make it worth while) I guess I could also deliver Solaris X86 the same way. We don't have enough Oracle (nee SUN) boxes to be able to deliver them at that rate, but in theory Oracle Solaris can do the same. VMware works just like IBM used to with 360 mainframes. It has such a really low entry point (S/360 model 30 comes to mind), and generally once you are in you are in and addicted. The smallest physical VMWare server my employer has around $3,000 dollars and was used to consolidate virtualize a small pile of desktop PCs used to manage a thin client environment, and run a time management system. Total cost around $3000 dollars. I am also looking at some big boxes for a CPU intensive application. These may well turn out at $25,000 or more each. If you are really big you can pay twice that... However provided the physical boxes are on the same VLAN and SAN I can transparently move the RUNNING servers from the smallest box to the largest with no impact to the user, no re-boot, and the OS won't even notice the move. http://www.vmware.com/uk/products/datacenter-virtualization/vsphere/vmotion.html Microsoft have a similar facility for Hyper-V called "live migration". http://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/download/details.aspx?id=12601 Watching VMWare VMotion a VM between two ESX hosts is still something I find difficult to believe, but the system does it all the time, to load balance. It will also do dynamic power management where it automatically consolidates the work load during times of low capacity demand. (I haven't tried that yet) Last time I looked IBM was promising this for a future release of zVM but it may be here now. Of course IBM boxes are big enough that they don't need it for performance and there is enough redundancy in a big box for most needs.. > - MG Hope thats all clear. Its past my early bed time over here in East Pondia... Dave G4UGM From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 16:43:44 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 16:43:44 -0500 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I have a fellow co-worker who used to work for Intergraph during its heyday. I asked him about it so we'll see what he has to say. On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 4:28 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > I wish there was an Intergraph wiki or short summary of models with > > specs. Maybe I would even choose what I would like to want, if any. > > Intergraphs are the great forgotten workstations using the great > forget microprocessor. > > But then, Intergraph has been complete dicks about being hobbyist friendly. > > -- > Will > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 8 16:56:45 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 17:56:45 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> On 04/08/2013 05:40 PM, MG wrote: > On 8-apr-2013 22:37, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Hrmm? I thought the MandrakeOT list was the only place members >> wore shiny hats of tin? > > The bail-outs are an 'illusion', you're telling me? (And /I/ am the > one wearing a tinfoil hat...?!) > > Have you been living under/inside a "mainframe" all that time, or > so? > > - MG Nope, I didn't tell you anything. Merely asked a question of the group; regarding the allowed headgear when participating here. It'd be kinda cramped to live under a mainframe, but I'd stay warm at least. Have a good day, Mr. Troll. :) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 16:58:56 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 23:58:56 +0200 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51633DA0.90108@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 23:28, William Donzelli wrote: > Intergraphs are the great forgotten workstations using the great > forget microprocessor. > > But then, Intergraph has been complete dicks about being hobbyist > friendly. That I remember too well, back in the 1990s, which certainly must have contributed to me parting with my CLIPPER back then... - MG From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 17:07:43 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 18:07:43 -0400 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: >> Intergraphs are the great forgotten workstations using the great >> forget microprocessor. ^^^^^ Goddamn computers. I hate them. "forgotten" not "forget" -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 17:14:59 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 18:14:59 -0400 Subject: Cross country hauling - an update Message-ID: Thanks to all so far that have expressed interest in me hauling their computer goodies across the country. As I think most of the interested parties know, my roadtrip has been delayed until June. I am resetting all the deals, as things were just not gelling properly. Anyway, many of you have already been contacted, and may be contacted again, to get the deals restarted, and to finalize the whole roadtrip. I am sorry that I could not do all the hauling requested - not enough space in the van. One thing - for any deal, I need to know exactly who I am dealing with, with *full* contact information. If someone has a deal piggybacking on another deal that I am hauling, I absolutely need to know about it. Basically, I need to know everything. Please keep in mind that I keep all of this information very discrete, and in fact, am under NDAs with some customers. No blabbermouthing from me. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 8 17:38:22 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 16:38:22 -0600 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 8 17:43:43 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:43:43 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <57A6EB97-AAE9-4F09-9756-E35C2DFDD756@shiresoft.com> On Apr 7, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Mouse wrote: > >>> By providing virtualisation, VMware is doing for Intel platforms >>> what VM/370 did onmainframes in the 1970?s. > > Is it? How easy is it to run VM-in-VM with VMware? (That's a serious > question; I have never even looked at it myself. Work has never > required it, and, like all closed-source software, it's simply not > under consideration for my home use. Someday I want to learn enough of > the x86 hypervisor hardware facilities to build a hypervisor of my own, > but so far opportunity and inclination have not coincided for that.) > x86 HW doesn't really allow VM-in-VM. If VMWare supports it at all it's all through SW emulation. TTFN - Guy From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 17:50:45 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 00:50:45 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 23:56, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Nope, I didn't tell you anything. Merely asked a question of the > group; regarding the allowed headgear when participating here. > > It'd be kinda cramped to live under a mainframe, but I'd stay warm > at least. > > Have a good day, Mr. Troll. :) Said the coward who called someone a nut, not even willing to say why (or let alone substantiate such claims/smears), but is too yellow to even admit having done so. - MG From jon at jonworld.com Mon Apr 8 18:04:48 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 19:04:48 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <57A6EB97-AAE9-4F09-9756-E35C2DFDD756@shiresoft.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <51610A66.3060309@neurotica.com> <51614773.9070004@xs4all.nl> <5161D2FC.4090901@xs4all.nl> <201304080058.UAA08205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <57A6EB97-AAE9-4F09-9756-E35C2DFDD756@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2013, at 6:43 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > x86 HW doesn't really allow VM-in-VM. If VMWare supports it at all > it's all through SW emulation. Gotcha. Depends on the VM, too. I'm running SIMH under OpenBSD under VMWare for one of my projects. But that wasn't the original question. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 18:06:46 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 19:06:46 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 05:42 PM, Dave wrote: >>> In my opinion the biggest mistake DEC made was to try and take the >>> Alpha chip down market. It spoilt the brand image. >> >> That's the first time I heard anyone say this before... Most people >> complain that it was overpriced and (still) to hard to obtain, along >> with (of course) a poor software library (e.g. under AXP versions of >> Windows). >> > I don't remember it being hard to obtain. I think the "overpriced" > argument only appeared when they produced the cheaper "windows only" > servers. > Poor software library was also an issue, so whilst you could get the > Microsoft Exchange server on Alpha, you need an Intel box to run the > Lotus Notes and Profs/SNADS connectors. Alphas were never hard to obtain. Pick up the phone and order one, and it shows up. I did it myself, time and time again, through the 90s. From tiny desktops to several-hundred-kilobuck AltaVista-class machines with 8GB of RAM (in 1994!), they were all just a phone call away. As far as software...you got UNIX and a C compiler, and the net provided the rest. Life was good. Nobody in their right mind ran Windows on Alphas, and the "getting work done" part of the networking world never wanted to play in that dirt. They were expensive, but no more so than their peers. (which did not include cheap PC hardware, but then, we didn't run that stuff in that world) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 18:13:29 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 01:13:29 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> On 8-apr-2013 23:42, Dave wrote: > I do hate answering the obvious trolling, but I am weak willed so > some answers in lin You thought by calling me names (e.g. "troll") I'd 'back down'? What kind of logic is behind that? You only make me more 'eager' to inquire and get to the bottom of this. Note that I was never 'trolling', just critically interested in what this "z" stuff entails nowadays and cross-referencing articles of well-known publications (like The Register). So far, no refutations, just name-calling. Well, a bit of something vaguely resembling a /discussion/ is slowly returning. So, I guess that's a good sign and it's not all lost yet. (By the way, are you the same 'Dave'?) > They are big and expensive and difficult to justify for a small > business? Even with "Capacity on Demand" the entry level prices are > such that an SME (google for what percentage of the market are SME) > can't afford to get on the ladder. There is a lot more to VMWare (and > Hyper-V) than just Virtualization... I've seen smaller form factor IBM mainframes before, like recently in a YouTube video. Also, whatever prevented IBM from creating more and even more compact mainframes? Like I asked before: What the hell is it with this disturbing 'elitism', 'mainframe royalty'? That of all people, the most republican bunch on this planet (Americans) are defending this goes beyond me... > I can't possibly comment... > ... but others say VMWare is getting expensive compared to the Microsoft > Hyper-V. Could be, but it's hard to deny that they're very proliferated. (And no, I don't 'love' or even prefer any of the above. This is just, again, an observation.) > No one outside IBM knows for sure. Getting figures for how many > zSeries boxes in use is pretty challenging.. HP does the same for some of its product lines (or, actually, those that they inherited from Compaq and DEC in turn) and people are equally critical about that practice. Why do many IBM and particularly "i" and "z" people lack this (self-)critical ability? Also, wouldn't it be in their interest if they and future potential users got better access to it and the platform became a bit more 'common'? > I don't remember it being hard to obtain. I think the "overpriced" > argument only appeared when they produced the cheaper "windows only" > servers. Well, for those it naturally applied even more so. But, also for the AlphaServer/AlphaStation systems though. Just take a look on comp.os.vms, or its archives, for instance. Or, look at the current market in Alpha parts (with regard to my remark about "still"). > Poor software library was also an issue, so whilst you could get the > Microsoft Exchange server on Alpha, you need an Intel box to run the > Lotus Notes and Profs/SNADS connectors. That was a huge problem, but even more so for the failed attempts at workstations... Only some high-end 3D software made it to it, not typically the most profitable, high-volume, stuff. In fact, many of those programs back then were also optimized for people going cheap on graphics accelerators and --- from what I understood --- many NT AXP systems in that line of work ended up as 'render nodes' ... since, after all, the processor itself was still very capable and impressive. > Sorry it was a survey of our internal sever estate, so its not available > on the public domain. Unfortunate, not to mention very convenient for those interested in the outside world... > Watching VMWare VMotion a VM between two ESX hosts is still something I > find difficult to believe, but the system does it all the time, to load > balance. It will also do dynamic power management where it automatically > consolidates the work load during times of low capacity demand. (I > haven't tried that yet) That's interesting, sure, but it's also very boring at the same time if you ask me. The magic of computing is largely gone nowadays, lost in the abstraction layers within abstraction layers (as Dr. Bernd Ulmann put it once). > Last time I looked IBM was promising this for a future release of zVM > but it may be here now. Of course IBM boxes are big enough that they > don't need it for performance and there is enough redundancy in a big > box for most needs.. That's interesting. Still a shame IBM allowed it to lag behind. What will happen if IBM would hypothetically disappear? You think I'm 'trolling'? You're dead wrong. (But it's too bad I had to spell it out.) I'm critical, because I am concerned about the growing x86 & ARM bi-polarity. There is nothing both those two, it seems, nowadays. HP is only keeping up appearances with its IA-64 offerings, just to annoy Oracle and that's about it, it seems. I doubt Oracle in turn would keep the SPARC stuff alive much longer either, they seem /content/ with their x86 things. So, that leaves IBM as the last big non-x86/non-ARM player, wouldn't it? - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 18:18:03 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 01:18:03 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5163502B.3090407@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 1:13, I wrote: > Unfortunate, not to mention very convenient for those interested in > the outside world... Correction: "Convenient" in the above naturally has to be /inconvenient/. - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 18:40:32 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 19:40:32 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51635570.6050208@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 07:13 PM, MG wrote: > On 8-apr-2013 23:42, Dave wrote: >> I do hate answering the obvious trolling, but I am weak willed so >> some answers in lin > > You thought by calling me names (e.g. "troll") I'd 'back down'? > What kind of logic is behind that? You only make me more 'eager' > to inquire and get to the bottom of this. > > Note that I was never 'trolling', just critically interested in what > this "z" stuff entails nowadays and cross-referencing articles of > well-known publications (like The Register). I cannot sit still for this one. You are not "critically interested". You sit there spouting off "MAINFRAMES ARE DEAD, YOU ARE A RELIC IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE" in various ways, trolling with your cluelessness and tired old rhetoric. Do not EVEN try to bring any degree of respectability to the shit you've spewed here. There was no "critically interested" about it. You are a clueless troll, nothing more, and nothing less. And there's MORE...See below! > So far, no refutations, just name-calling. Well, a bit of something > vaguely resembling a /discussion/ is slowly returning. So, I guess > that's a good sign and it's not all lost yet. > > (By the way, are you the same 'Dave'?) He is not the same "Dave". > HP is only keeping up appearances with its IA-64 offerings, just > to annoy Oracle and that's about it, it seems. I doubt Oracle > in turn would keep the SPARC stuff alive much longer either, > they seem /content/ with their x86 things. Keep reading the news, you're missing stuff. The latest SPARC hit the streets a week or two ago. Are you pretending to know more about the SPARC market than Oracle now, as well as knowing more about the mainframe market than IBM? What color IS the sky in your world, anyway? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 18:56:28 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 01:56:28 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 1:06, Dave McGuire wrote: > Alphas were never hard to obtain. Okay, AlphaPCs, AXPpci and the like were offered to 'lower end' and consumer markets. But, like I said, for what were they actually useful and why did nobody end up getting them? I mean, since they weren't hard to obtain, wouldn't that be worse then? > Pick up the phone and order one, and it shows up. I regret to have to inform you that my phone isn't capable of time traveling yet... > I did it myself, time and time again, through the 90s. I did see them on offer in computer magazines. But, again, the aforementioned variety. > From tiny desktops to several-hundred-kilobuck AltaVista-class > machines with 8GB of RAM (in 1994!), they were all just a phone > call away. Also a few additional loans and mortgages... (Especially the more useful and interesting "AlphaStation"/"AlphaServer" systems.) > As far as software...you got UNIX and a C compiler, and the > net provided the rest. Have you recently tried to build Tru64 UNIX pkgsrc offerings? (For instance.) That convenience, although I can't retroactively check that, is hardly there... (Or, certainly not anymore.) Digital/Tru64 UNIX saw quite a bit of usage, especially here. Many companies and government agencies ran VMS and Tru64 UNIX, but it's sadly all dead now and gone to Windows and Linux. > Life was good. Nobody in their right mind ran Windows on > Alphas Guess what those affordable Alphas were only capable of running... (Hint: It starts with a /W/.) > [T]he "getting work done" part of the networking world > neverwanted to play in that dirt. You are forgetting about graphics and post-production now. Look up things like SOFTIMAGE|3D, mental ray and LightWave 3D, amongst other things. Those enjoyed Windows AXP ports, Tru64 UNIX (and VMS, needless to say) never did... > They were expensive, but no more so than their peers. Well guess what happened with their peers as well? - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 19:13:35 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 02:13:35 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51635570.6050208@neurotica.com> References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> <51635570.6050208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51635D2F.90108@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 1:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > I cannot sit still for this one. > > You are not "critically interested". You sit there spouting off > "MAINFRAMES ARE DEAD, YOU ARE A RELIC IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE" in various > ways, trolling with your cluelessness and tired old rhetoric. > > Do not EVEN try to bring any degree of respectability to the shit > you've spewed here. There was no "critically interested" about it. Watch the blood pressure. I know it's not an emotional issue for you, but just saying... > Keep reading the news, you're missing stuff. The latest SPARC hit the > streets a week or two ago. So? Also a new Itanium arrived a while ago. > Are you pretending to know more about the SPARC market than Oracle now, > as well as knowing more about the mainframe market than IBM? Your psychic abilities continue to astound me. > What color IS the sky in your world, anyway? That would really depend on the weather, now wouldn't it? - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 19:15:09 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 20:15:09 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 07:56 PM, MG wrote: >> Alphas were never hard to obtain. > > Okay, AlphaPCs, AXPpci and the like were offered to 'lower end' > and consumer markets. But, like I said, for what were they > actually useful and why did nobody end up getting them? I > mean, since they weren't hard to obtain, wouldn't that be > worse then? I dunno, I had quite a few of them in my datacenter. They were very common in my world. Some of them still are. >> Pick up the phone and order one, and it shows up. > > I regret to have to inform you that my phone isn't capable of > time traveling yet... As I said, which is quoted below, IN THE 1990s. >> I did it myself, time and time again, through the 90s. > > I did see them on offer in computer magazines. But, again, > the aforementioned variety. Dropping a quarter mil on a big server isn't usually done via ads in computer magazines. >> From tiny desktops to several-hundred-kilobuck AltaVista-class >> machines with 8GB of RAM (in 1994!), they were all just a phone >> call away. > > Also a few additional loans and mortgages... (Especially the more > useful and interesting "AlphaStation"/"AlphaServer" systems.) Are you under some impression that these machines were intended for home use by consumers?? >> As far as software...you got UNIX and a C compiler, and the >> net provided the rest. > > Have you recently tried to build Tru64 UNIX pkgsrc offerings? > (For instance.) That convenience, although I can't retroactively > check that, is hardly there... (Or, certainly not anymore.) Pkgsrc? Nope, but I built stuff all day long back then. I had no problems. It was no easier nor more difficult than building things on any other OS. > Digital/Tru64 UNIX saw quite a bit of usage, especially here. > Many companies and government agencies ran VMS and Tru64 UNIX, > but it's sadly all dead now and gone to Windows and Linux. ALL of it, huh? *chuckle* >> Life was good. Nobody in their right mind ran Windows on >> Alphas > > Guess what those affordable Alphas were only capable of > running... (Hint: It starts with a /W/.) ...for the cheap consumer market, and the idiots... Besides, DEC would *give* you OSF/1 if you bought an Alpha, in nearly all cases. Once again, you're dead wrong. At least you're consistent. >> [T]he "getting work done" part of the networking world >> neverwanted to play in that dirt. > > You are forgetting about graphics and post-production now. > Look up things like SOFTIMAGE|3D, mental ray and LightWave > 3D, amongst other things. Those enjoyed Windows AXP ports, > Tru64 UNIX (and VMS, needless to say) never did... I didn't work in that world. It was owned by SGI anyway; Alphas were never a serious player in that world. >> They were expensive, but no more so than their peers. > > Well guess what happened with their peers as well? Here we go again! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 19:23:55 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 20:23:55 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51635D2F.90108@xs4all.nl> References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> <51635570.6050208@neurotica.com> <51635D2F.90108@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51635F9B.104@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 08:13 PM, MG wrote: >> I cannot sit still for this one. >> >> You are not "critically interested". You sit there spouting off >> "MAINFRAMES ARE DEAD, YOU ARE A RELIC IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE" in various >> ways, trolling with your cluelessness and tired old rhetoric. >> >> Do not EVEN try to bring any degree of respectability to the shit >> you've spewed here. There was no "critically interested" about it. > > Watch the blood pressure. I know it's not an emotional issue for you, > but just saying... You truly are an ass. This list attracts more asses than any other I've seen, but you are definitely in the top five. I'm impressed! If you direct your energies somewhere other than trolling on mailing lists from the safety of your mom's basement, you might become impressive in other ways as well. But...I kinda doubt it. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 19:35:10 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 01:35:10 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 9 April 2013 00:56, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 1:06, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Alphas were never hard to obtain. > > > Okay, AlphaPCs, AXPpci and the like were offered to 'lower end' > and consumer markets. But, like I said, for what were they > actually useful and why did nobody end up getting them? I > mean, since they weren't hard to obtain, wouldn't that be > worse then? > > > >> Pick up the phone and order one, and it shows up. > > > I regret to have to inform you that my phone isn't capable of > time traveling yet... > > > >> I did it myself, time and time again, through the 90s. > > > I did see them on offer in computer magazines. But, again, > the aforementioned variety. > > > >> From tiny desktops to several-hundred-kilobuck AltaVista-class >> machines with 8GB of RAM (in 1994!), they were all just a phone >> call away. > > > Also a few additional loans and mortgages... (Especially the more > useful and interesting "AlphaStation"/"AlphaServer" systems.) > > > >> As far as software...you got UNIX and a C compiler, and the >> net provided the rest. > > > Have you recently tried to build Tru64 UNIX pkgsrc offerings? > (For instance.) That convenience, although I can't retroactively > check that, is hardly there... (Or, certainly not anymore.) > > Digital/Tru64 UNIX saw quite a bit of usage, especially here. > Many companies and government agencies ran VMS and Tru64 UNIX, > but it's sadly all dead now and gone to Windows and Linux. > > > >> Life was good. Nobody in their right mind ran Windows on >> Alphas > > > Guess what those affordable Alphas were only capable of > running... (Hint: It starts with a /W/.) > > >> [T]he "getting work done" part of the networking world >> neverwanted to play in that dirt. > > > You are forgetting about graphics and post-production now. > Look up things like SOFTIMAGE|3D, mental ray and LightWave > 3D, amongst other things. Those enjoyed Windows AXP ports, > Tru64 UNIX (and VMS, needless to say) never did... > > > >> They were expensive, but no more so than their peers. > > > Well guess what happened with their peers as well? While both of you are getting increasingly inflamed and inflammatory, the actual point to this debate - if there is one - seems to be getting lost in the noise. I suggest that you both retreat and attempt to clarify your positions. Dave McG, I don't think MG is actually trolling here. He has, ISTM, a genuine question, which , if I understand it correctly, is "what is so special about mainframes?" And while you are getting increasingly agitated and shouting the odds - and hurling some abuse, too - *you are not actually answering this question.* That, ISTM, is why MG is continuing to bait you. "MG" - you seem now to be comparing mainframes to DEC OpenVMS boxes, is that correct? If so... why? Are you asking why mainframes are still around while DEC's OpenVMS offerings are long gone? Or are you pointing out that, toward the end, OpenVMS boxes morphed into something not unlike high-end PCs and asking why mainframes have not done the same? If I can attempt to answer this... VAXes and their kin - even big ones - were not true mainframes. Mainframes are a different /type/ of computer. There used to be 3 types of computer: mainframes, minicomputers and microcomputers. At the high end, micros blended into the specialised realm of "workstations". (Obviously these are sweeping generalisations here.) Minis have essentially ceased to exist. So have workstations, inasmuch as the difference between micros and workstations was one of scale and spec: workstations were high-power, graphical computers running a multitasking OS, aimed at presenting a rich graphical environment for a single user. All modern micros are essentially workstations; there are no workstations any more. The differential between them was this: * micros run off a microprocessor, a single-chip CPU, and were essentially designed for a single, interactive user * minis ran off CPUs built out of discrete parts - pre-microchip - and were designed to serve a small number of interactive users on terminals * mainframes predate the whole notion of interactive users and aren't really designed to serve interactive, logged-in users at all; instead, they were designed and very heavily optimised for running batch jobs with great efficiency and reliability. Minis and high-end micros in the form of what are now called "servers" have essentially merged. They're not real minis any more - most are just big PCs, i.e., micros; a few, such as IBM's and Oracle's ranges, have evolved out of proprietary RISC workstations, but apart from the different CPU, they are pretty much PCs. They're micros, but with their framebuffers and mouse and keyboard ports shrunk to vestigiality and the emphasis on providing services over the network. They still run microprocessors, though - all the old lines of pre-microprocessor minis are dead. The closest thing is IBM i, AKA AS/400, but today, that's just a different OS running on an IBM System P, i.e., a POWER Server, i.e., an RS/6000. The 2 lines converged years ago. Mainframes are a conceptually different type of computer. They don't have keyboards and mice, obviously, unlike workstations; they don't even support conventional terminals, i.e. dumb terminals running over serial ports. Mainframe terminals were computers in their own right, handling input & redrawing the screen locally - they batched up the users' input and sent it over special cabling systems to the mainframe in chunks. That is historical now, but the point is, mainframes are not interactive computers, and that's why they've survived and that's also why they never mutated into workstations as the VAX and Alpha did. What is so peculiar about them? Various things. * Specialist OSs, so that, for instance, unlike with PC or Unix virtualisation, the hypervisor OS is nothing but a hypervisor, whereas the guest often depends on a hypervisor for its function - some guest OSs don't even have things like networking or filesystems, because the host provides this. Sounds weird but it's tens to hundreds of times more efficient than the PC model. * Everything is offloaded. These systems have multiple processors, sure, like a high-end server, but they have lots of different types of processor. Some do computation, some do encryption, some manage databases, some just do indexing, some just handle various different types of I/O. PC servers cannot even come close to this, but the PC's efforts at comparing are things like machines with TCP/IP offload engines in their network cards, stacks of dozens of GPGPU cards for number crunching, and *in the same case as the PC* both NAS storage and SAN storage, talking iSCSI to some devices, Fibrechannel to others, SMB to others, NFS to others - all inside a single system, using whatever is more appropriate for each workload. Smart dedicated sub-computers running each type of storage, so that the "main" processor doesn't do /any/ of this for itself; it /only/ runs the all-important batch workloads. The result is scalability and reliability that no network of x86 boxes running VMware can even get close to touching yet. Machines which have /no/ single point of failure - multiple processors, memory buses, system buses, disk controllers, network controllers, any of which can be started and stopped independently, so that bits of a machine can be shut down and replaced or upgraded while the rest of the machine is still running at 100% load, flat out, handling mission-critical workloads. Imagine a whole server room, hell, a whole datacentre, with hundreds of independent servers - some running Windows, some Linux, some Solaris, some Netapp Filers, some dedicated SQL servers, all in a single rack, managed as a single instance, with 100% compatibility and all the components, from the processor chips to the disk drives to the network cards to all the OSs, all coming from a single vendor, all optimised for handling big server workloads with /better than/ 99.999% availability. That is why people still buy (or more to the point, rent) mainframes. Because when it comes to the point when you are going to have to spec an entire datacentre, hire a whole team of experts to integrate it all, and spent a few million a year running it, then in some cases, it makes good financial sense to just lease a single box from IBM which does all of this in one fridge-sized cabinet that sits there and just works. No integration, no management, software compatibility that goes back to whole decades before the 8086 was invented in 1978 or whatever, all guaranteed and backed up by the most solid, high-quality SLA that has ever existed in the IT industry. If your workloads start small and grow, and are based around PC software running on x86, this all sounds irrelevant. It's cheaper to use a rack full of cheap x86 kit. If you need lots of racks, these days, buy the time off some cloud vendor. If you are an international company with many hundreds of millions of customers, and everything you run is bespoke and hand-coded for you, and you don't give a flying toss what it runs on but it *ABOSLUTELY MUST* stay running for years on end, then actually, a mainframe makes much more sense. What IBM did in the last decade or so is realise that this honking great boxes can run Linux in one of their virtualization partitions just as well as they can run weird proprietary IBM OSs. And if you run Linux in that VM, then you get all the PC-type stuff that mainframes don't do terribly well for free - TCP/IP, HTTP, all that sort of stuff. But the scalability of a mainframe means that whereas on a very well-specced x86 server, you can run dozens of VMs, maybe even a hundred plus if you set it up very carefully and throw terabytes of RAM at it, on a bog-standard low-end mainframe, you can run tens of *thousands* of Linux instances all at once - because running lots and lots of similar workloads side-by-side and keeping them all responsive is what mainframes are built to do. I am not talking about a system that is 5? or 10? more scalable. I'm talking about something 50? or 100? more scalable. Not supporting hundreds of users per box, but millions of users per box. Sure, only on certain specialised workloads, not on pure CPU-intensive stuff - but for finance and the like, stuff for which there is code out there that has been in production since the 1960s, a level of maturity that is literally impossible for x86 or Unix products. So yes, huge, relic of a bygone age, cost millions, but absolutely perfect for certain workloads, like a financial reconciliation app that handles billions of dollars' worth of transactions, all day, every day, and which never ever goes down at all ever. But if you want to serve files on a LAN, or run a thousand instances of MariaDB, Perl and Apache running some JSON queries and rendering PHP, no, it's a stupid, ruinously expensive way to do that. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 19:56:40 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 02:56:40 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 2:15, Dave McGuire wrote: > I dunno, I had quite a few of them in my datacenter. They > were very common in my world. Some of them still are. Why, oh why, would anyone want to run an EOL platform? (Other than to keep things up and running.) > As I said, which is quoted below, IN THE 1990s. I was also talking about the present. I know, not your favorite place to be. Sorry about that. > Dropping a quarter mil on a big server isn't usually done via > ads in computer magazines. Are you now denying the existence of such ads? Also, I wouldn't call (e.g.) an AlphaStation 200, Digital Personal WorkStation or something else of (roughly) that proportion a "big server". > Are you under some impression that these machines were intended > for home use by consumers?? I keep forgetting that it's wholly illogical and unreasonable for people to run systems in their small(er) business environments and, /gawd forbid/, at home! You'd be surprised at the amount of things that were ported (think of F/OSS offerings) to VMS by those evil, non-millionaire, scum /little people/ you so dearly despise. > It was no easier nor more difficult than building things on any > other OS. How about now? Keep this also in mind for the below paragraphs. >> Digital/Tru64 UNIX saw quite a bit of usage, especially here. >> Many companies and government agencies ran VMS and Tru64 UNIX, >> but it's sadly all dead now and gone to Windows and Linux. > > ALL of it, huh? *chuckle* Why would anyone want to run an EOL (read: dead) operating system without even a community left? (Thanks to the PAKs not being provided any longer.) Guess what subsequently happened to F/OSS offerings, to make it even less attractive? The only people still running Tru64 UNIX, over here at least, are in the process of moving to emulators and some --- those daring enough --- moving to HP-UX on HP's miracle denialware (better known as IPF, a.k.a. IA-64 or... /Itanic/ by some). > ...for the cheap consumer market, and the idiots... You mean the non-millionaire /little people/? So, who exactly are the "idiots" now? Tru64 UNIX is dead now and it has been for many years. HP didn't even proceed to port off things like TruCluster, AdvFS, etc. to HP-UX, as they promised in the roadmaps at the time (around 2003~'05). > Besides, DEC would *give* you OSF/1 if you bought an > Alpha, in nearly all cases. Once again, you're dead wrong. Oh, right, that's why nearly everything was bolted down with PAKs? (Product Activation Keys, in case you may have perhaps forgotten.) > I didn't work in that world. It was owned by SGI anyway; > Alphas were never a serious player in that world. No, they didn't, but they did make some inroads when it came to raw number crunching; you know, rendering (like I wrote about earlier). Those NT AXP systems supposedly outran some SGI IRIX/MIPS systems at the time. (Note: I'm a huge SGI fan, I also own a good amount of them and still run them, including a close- to-max'ed out quad-processor Tezro.) > Here we go again! So, where is SGI now? Where is (pre-Oracle) Sun now? Where is SCO now? Where is DEC itself now? Where are all those HP-UX, AIX, etc. workstations now? - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 20:12:07 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 21:12:07 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51636AE7.9010600@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 08:56 PM, MG wrote: >> I dunno, I had quite a few of them in my datacenter. They >> were very common in my world. Some of them still are. > > Why, oh why, would anyone want to run an EOL platform? (Other than > to keep things up and running.) Because it works, and because there's (usually) no reason to change. Why are we talking about this? In your world, do salesmens' preferences dictate how well a tool performs a job? I pity your manager. >> As I said, which is quoted below, IN THE 1990s. > > I was also talking about the present. I know, not your favorite > place to be. Sorry about that. Oh, right! This is the mailing list where we all talk about our day jobs, working with cutting-edge equipment. I design ARM-based systems for a living, kid. And if/when that work dries up, I'll probably go work with cutting-edge mainframes. That is unless IBM decides to just stop making them due to your fantastic and much-valued business advice. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 20:13:03 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 21:13:03 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51636B1F.4040301@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 08:35 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Dave McG, I don't think MG is actually trolling here. He has, ISTM, a > genuine question, which , if I understand it correctly, is "what is so > special about mainframes?" And while you are getting increasingly > agitated and shouting the odds - and hurling some abuse, too - *you > are not actually answering this question.* That, ISTM, is why MG is > continuing to bait you. Liam, I appreciate your point of view here, but MG really is just being an ass. He doesn't know very much about what he's talking about, he's found me to be very easy to bait (which I am), and is having fun with it, probably because he REALLY needs to get laid and just can't manage to make it happen. I really need to just be done with it, and make a mental note to beat his ass to a sobbing pulp the next time I'm in his vicinity. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 8 20:16:19 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:16:19 +1200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: >(Liam's explanation on mainframes..) Thank you Liam. To someone like me who knows very little about modern, high-end computing this well-written and understandable piece was very educational. Terry (Tez) From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 20:32:05 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 02:32:05 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 9 April 2013 02:16, Terry Stewart wrote: >>(Liam's explanation on mainframes..) > > Thank you Liam. To someone like me who knows very little about modern, > high-end computing this well-written and understandable piece was very > educational. (!) Gosh. Thanks! You are very welcome! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 20:34:19 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 21:34:19 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <696CB6F5-BCE4-441C-AAE8-9DEF282111F8@gmail.com> On Apr 8, 2013, at 8:56 PM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 2:15, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I dunno, I had quite a few of them in my datacenter. They >> were very common in my world. Some of them still are. > > Why, oh why, would anyone want to run an EOL platform? (Other than > to keep things up and running.) I'm not interested in getting into this, but that's actually not a bad reason to keep running an EOL platform. Ask the steel mill we worked with to replace their old Multibus- based stand controllers; it's a lot cheaper to keep an old system running (especially if it's a very durable design, like a lot of the Alpha boxes and VAXen) than it is to try to replace the system. Especially if something goes wrong when you're trying to replace it. For the record, we only buckled *one* many-thousand-dollar ingot of steel. :-) And that was a bug in their old documentation for the system we had to interface with. - Dave From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 20:40:19 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 03:40:19 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51637183.70007@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 2:35, Liam Proven wrote: > I suggest that you both retreat and attempt to clarify your positions. Feel free to point out where it has been vague and inflammatory, because I don't at all feel addressed by such accusations. > "MG" - you seem now to be comparing mainframes to DEC OpenVMS boxes, > is that correct? To the degree that they're both niche platforms, and nowadays more than they ever were before, yes. Not architecturally. As I already said, I have never even gotten the opportunity to use a mainframe, other than perhaps what one can do through emulation (e.g. through SimH) with various historical offerings. The closest thing to it, the 'quasi-mainframe' as I dared to call it, was the public access AS/400 of Rechenzentrum Kreuznach. The only "i" I have ever seen and used (only as an unprivileged user at that.) > Are you asking why mainframes are still around while DEC's OpenVMS > offerings are long gone? Because VMS is supposedly also alive, like the mainframe. But, at least many VMS people are a bit more honest with themselves on average and show a bit more self-criticism than the average IBM (and especially mainframe) type I've been coming across in the last few years. > Or are you pointing out that, toward the end, OpenVMS boxes morphed > into something not unlike high-end PCs and asking why mainframes > have not done the same? No and I'm not sure how you got this out of all that came by so far. In fact, this was never (from the beginning) VMS' strong point. > VAXes and their kin - even big ones - were not true mainframes. I guess not, but then, the definition of "mainframe" is not one I care tremendously for. I never lost sleep over whether or not they were considered a "mainframe". > There used to be 3 types of computer: mainframes, minicomputers and > microcomputers. At the high end, micros blended into the specialised > realm of "workstations". (Obviously these are sweeping generalisations > here.) This is, of course, a bit of an IBM-dictated 'taxonomy'. I mean, DEC didn't even call its systems "computers" literally at first. (Think of "PDP".) Would that mean a "PDP-11" isn't a computer therefore...? > The differential between them was this: > > * micros run off a microprocessor, a single-chip CPU, and were > essentially designed for a single, interactive user > * minis ran off CPUs built out of discrete parts - pre-microchip - and > were designed to serve a small number of interactive users on > terminals > * mainframes predate the whole notion of interactive users and aren't > really designed to serve interactive, logged-in users at all; instead, > they were designed and very heavily optimised for running batch jobs > with great efficiency and reliability. Yes, I'm aware of the notion and idea of "time sharing". Very ancient stuff though, all in all, to be honest. > Mainframes are a conceptually different type of computer. They don't > have keyboards and mice, obviously, unlike workstations; they don't > even support conventional terminals, i.e. dumb terminals running over > serial ports. I may not have used a mainframe, as I said, but I'm not /that/ unaware about their functioning. Many of these characteristics, like with regard to dumb terminals, are also true for "i" though. At least, I can't think of an "i" (or, AS/400) that would be operated via direct graphics head/frame- buffer interface with a 'keyboard & mouse'; you? > That is historical now, but the point is, mainframes are not > interactive computers, and that's why they've survived and that's > also why they never mutated into workstations as the VAX and Alpha > did. It's funny you should mention that, but they were rather poor for those purposes overall (eventually in the long run). > Various things. > > * Specialist OSs, so that, for instance, unlike with PC or Unix > virtualisation, the hypervisor OS is nothing but a hypervisor, whereas > the guest often depends on a hypervisor for its function - some guest > OSs don't even have things like networking or filesystems, because the > host provides this. Sounds weird but it's tens to hundreds of times > more efficient than the PC model. I'm aware of some of these concepts. Say, isn't this what the FreeBSD "jails" are slowly, but surely, trying to mimic a bit? > * Everything is offloaded. These systems have multiple processors, > sure, like a high-end server, but they have lots of different types of > processor. Some do computation, some do encryption, some manage > databases, some just do indexing, some just handle various different > types of I/O. PC servers cannot even come close to this, but the PC's > efforts at comparing are things like machines with TCP/IP offload > engines in their network cards, stacks of dozens of GPGPU cards for > number crunching, and *in the same case as the PC* both NAS storage > and SAN storage, talking iSCSI to some devices, Fibrechannel to > others, SMB to others, NFS to others - all inside a single system, > using whatever is more appropriate for each workload. Smart dedicated > sub-computers running each type of storage, so that the "main" > processor doesn't do /any/ of this for itself; it /only/ runs the > all-important batch workloads. Like I said, it's a beautiful sounding system, I never doubted that. My main gripe is the 'elitism' that IBM seems to instill and (like also someone else admitted) seems to artificially keep alive. It also --- well, to me anyway --- gives the impression that it's more of a money making scheme (the 'exclusivity', so to speak) than a sound future-proof treatment. > Imagine a whole server room, hell, a whole datacentre, with hundreds > of independent servers - some running Windows, some Linux, some > Solaris, some Netapp Filers, some dedicated SQL servers, all in a > single rack, managed as a single instance, with 100% compatibility and > all the components, from the processor chips to the disk drives to the > network cards to all the OSs, all coming from a single vendor, all > optimised for handling big server workloads with /better than/ 99.999% > availability. I've never seen official performance statistics, just IBM's own figures. So, I can't comment on how it truly behaves in this regard. > That is why people still buy (or more to the point, rent) mainframes. There is a generation, I'm even willing to bet several generations, that grew up with nothing other than Windows and Linux. Some young enough have never even experienced nor seen/heard an IBM PC, let alone the term "IBM PC". Why is this important? Because IBM itself, the company, is also falling further into obscurity like this, along with "z". Will banks continue to run "z"? I guess some will, but I also read about NonStop and, not surprisingly, the ever encroaching Linux and even Windows. Then there's also the question of the current and upcoming generations, freshly indoctrinated with notions of "the cloud" and what-not: How "cloud-ready" is "z"? And to what degree would they prefer "z" over some Dell or 'brandless' x86 or even ARM (those seem to be coming, too, now) server? > Because when it comes to the point when you are going to have to spec > an entire datacentre, hire a whole team of experts to integrate it > all, and spent a few million a year running it, then in some cases, it > makes good financial sense to just lease a single box from IBM which > does all of this in one fridge-sized cabinet that sits there and just > works. No integration, no management, software compatibility that goes > back to whole decades before the 8086 was invented in 1978 or > whatever, all guaranteed and backed up by the most solid, high-quality > SLA that has ever existed in the IT industry. Like I wrote before, in the case of the "GAMEframe" setup by that Brazilian company Hoplon, they wrote they had to offload to "Cell" processor 'blades'; because otherwise it'd 'tax the "z" too much'. When I thus read such things, I become somewhat doubtful of such claims. It doesn't also help that IBM has made it so relegated and secluded to themselves and their direct customers, that the inquiring minds have little insight into these (and hopefully truthful?) types of performance benchmarks and figures... > What IBM did in the last decade or so is realise that this honking > great boxes can run Linux in one of their virtualization partitions > just as well as they can run weird proprietary IBM OSs. And if you run > Linux in that VM, then you get all the PC-type stuff that mainframes > don't do terribly well for free - TCP/IP, HTTP, all that sort of > stuff. How does this work in combination with the "time sharing" operating principles, though? Please bear with me, as I don't have any direct experience myself. > But the scalability of a mainframe means that whereas on a very > well-specced x86 server, you can run dozens of VMs, maybe even a > hundred plus if you set it up very carefully and throw terabytes of > RAM at it, on a bog-standard low-end mainframe, you can run tens of > *thousands* of Linux instances all at once - because running lots and > lots of similar workloads side-by-side and keeping them all responsive > is what mainframes are built to do. Though, with terabytes of RAM, I think many other platforms would also fare well... > I am not talking about a system that is 5? or 10? more scalable. > I'm talking about something 50? or 100? more scalable. Not > supporting hundreds of users per box, but millions of users per > box. Why isn't IBM more eager to speak of this and show the world what "z" is truly capable of? Why isn't YouTube loaded with videos showing these kind of things of, to name something? I really don't get it, such a capable platform (I'm told), but absolutely no desire to expand and increase its user/install base? > Sure, only on certain specialised workloads, not on pure CPU-intensive > stuff - but for finance and the like, stuff for which there is code > out there that has been in production since the 1960s, a level of > maturity that is literally impossible for x86 or Unix products. I guess that's another reason why the "GAMEframe" used those "Cell" processor 'blades'? > But if you want to serve files on a LAN, or run a thousand instances > of MariaDB, Perl and Apache running some JSON queries and rendering > PHP, no, it's a stupid, ruinously expensive way to do that. I'll gladly take your word for it, it sounds like you have more experience with mainframes than I do. But, what are your predictions for the future? I mean, it's exactly these things that are ever-expanding and becoming more and more common nowadays, aren't they? - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 20:56:06 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 03:56:06 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51636AE7.9010600@neurotica.com> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <51636AE7.9010600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51637536.4010703@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 3:12, Dave McGuire wrote: > Because it works, and because there's (usually) no reason to change. > Why are we talking about this? Because it doesn't work and there are tons of reasons to change. Again, this is for the most part again an observation. > In your world, do salesmens' preferences dictate how well a tool > performs a job? I pity your manager. You assume too much. > Oh, right! This is the mailing list where we all talk about our > day jobs, working with cutting-edge equipment. I seem to remember you brought these things up. In fact, I still run Tru64 UNIX here, but I don't pretend to run anything seriously. (No way in hell that I'd ever expose a Tru64 UNIX system directly to the 'net either, to name something else.) > I design ARM-based systems for a living, kid. Do you swear against yourself, by any chance? I mean, you're conspiring with the /debbil/ now, right? > And if/when that work dries up, I'll probably go work with > cutting-edge mainframes. You never answered where I asked why you turned that job opportunity down. So yes, definitely your second choice. > That is unless IBM decides to just stop making them due to > your fantastic and much-valued business advice. I'm an idiot /little person/, remember? And I lack the millions/billions in cash, to pay for the kind of acoustics that will be audible by IBM... - MG From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Apr 8 21:00:37 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:00:37 -0400 Subject: Core vs MOS RAM latencies - Re: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: <5162EB35.20600@sydex.com> References: <5161E60F.40700@verizon.net> <5161F140.1010306@telegraphics.com.au> <5162EB35.20600@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51637645.106@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/04/13 12:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/07/2013 03:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> That's odd, I seem to recall my handbooks claiming lower latencies for >> (Unibus?) core than the MOS products in the same range, but don't have >> the right handbook to, uh, hand. > > I don't know from UNIBUS, but the CDC 7600 used 270 nsec core, which, in > 1969 was much faster than MOS. ... Bitsavers has an 11/40 system manual which lists some timings for Unibus core: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1140/1140_SystemManual.pdf (4th printing, January 1975) "MF11-U/UP Memory is a read/write, random access coincident current, magnetic core type with a maximum cycle time of 980ns and a maximum access time of 425ns." However, there is no MOS memory listed for comparison. According to its system manual, the 11/34 (of which I own a couple) supports either core (MM11-CP or MM11-DP) or MOS (MS11-EP, MS11-FP, MS11-JP). I found the MM11-E core memory manual: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/memory/MM11-E_CoreMemoryManual.pdf "cycle time is 1.2?s and access time is 500ns" According to the MS11-M MOS memory user guide, http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1144/EK-MS11M-UG-001_UsersMan_May79.pdf (May 1979) DATI/DATIP (Memory) Typ. Access time 490ns; Typ. Cycle time 450ns A later document, MS11-P MOS Memory Technical Manual, Oct 1982, gives 490ns and 680ns for typical access and cycle times (DATI). Not very conclusive... It seems that some core models were slightly faster than some MOS models and vice versa. --Toby > > The "exchange jump" on the upper CDC systems (6000 and 7000) used a > read-modify-write cycle to swap the contents of the registers with an > area in memory. It was the fastest way to save and reload the enire > register set (using non-privileged instructions was far more > time-consuming, due to an odd trick used to save and restore the first > register of a set--often used as a quiz to new programmers). > > --Chuck > > > From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 21:00:56 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 04:00:56 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51636B1F.4040301@neurotica.com> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51636B1F.4040301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51637658.6020506@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 3:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > Liam, I appreciate your point of view here, but MG really is > just being an ass. He doesn't know very much about what he's > talking about, he's found me to be very easy to bait (which I am), > and is having fun with it, probably because he REALLY needs to get > laid and just can't manage to make it happen. ... to understand the greatness of IBM? (Or how is the above supposed to translate.) You're not really making this very easy for me either. > I really need to just be done with it, and make a mental note > to beat his ass to a sobbing pulp the next time I'm in his vicinity. Now now, is that a threat I'm reading here? Not very nice of you. - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 21:04:20 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:04:20 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51637536.4010703@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <51636AE7.9010600@neurotica.com> <51637536.4010703@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51637724.60101@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 09:56 PM, MG wrote: >> Because it works, and because there's (usually) no reason to change. >> Why are we talking about this? > > Because it doesn't work and there are tons of reasons to change. Wrong. > Again, this is for the most part again an observation. You might consider taking some info from people who have actually DONE this in the real world. People have spoken up, and you're not listening. >> I design ARM-based systems for a living, kid. > > Do you swear against yourself, by any chance? I mean, you're > conspiring with the /debbil/ now, right? Huh? You've totally lost your mind. >> And if/when that work dries up, I'll probably go work with >> cutting-edge mainframes. > > You never answered where I asked why you turned that job > opportunity down. So yes, definitely your second choice. Yes it is. I enjoy hardware and firmware design more than I enjoy outright app programming. Not that it's any of your business. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 8 21:05:25 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 04:05:25 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <696CB6F5-BCE4-441C-AAE8-9DEF282111F8@gmail.com> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <696CB6F5-BCE4-441C-AAE8-9DEF282111F8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51637765.2060008@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 3:34, David Riley wrote: > I'm not interested in getting into this, but that's actually > not a bad reason to keep running an EOL platform. Often there's little choice, especially for certain platform- dependent applications. I can understand why process control systems wouldn't need to be swapped out, especially if they're nicely kept away from the internet. Then, I guess, little could go wrong. (Also conveniently lacking things like USB, in that regard.) - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 8 21:24:50 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:24:50 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51637658.6020506@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51636B1F.4040301@neurotica.com> <51637658.6020506@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51637BF2.50807@neurotica.com> On 04/08/2013 10:00 PM, MG wrote: >> Liam, I appreciate your point of view here, but MG really is >> just being an ass. He doesn't know very much about what he's >> talking about, he's found me to be very easy to bait (which I am), >> and is having fun with it, probably because he REALLY needs to get >> laid and just can't manage to make it happen. > > ... to understand the greatness of IBM? (Or how is the above > supposed to translate.) No, to solve Your Problem. Understanding that IBM's mainframe business is doing fine, you'll have to learn a thing or two, starting with how to accept the possibility that there are things going on in the industry that you're not privy to or that you don't understand. > You're not really making this very easy for me either. You have a VERY easy time of things. You do anything the salespeople tell you to do, and sit behind the safety of the keyboard and rile people up. I'm sitting here getting work done, despite your ridiculous interruptions (which is a miracle, mind you, because you're really quite good at it...there's gotta be something I guess) while you seem to have nothing at all to do but piss in peoples' pools. >> I really need to just be done with it, and make a mental note >> to beat his ass to a sobbing pulp the next time I'm in his vicinity. > > Now now, is that a threat I'm reading here? Not very nice of you. No, you childish loon, I'm not going to hop on a plane to Europe and beat your ass. Though you sorely need it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 22:00:39 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 04:00:39 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51637183.70007@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51637183.70007@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 9 April 2013 02:40, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 2:35, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> I suggest that you both retreat and attempt to clarify your positions. > > Feel free to point out where it has been vague and inflammatory, > because I don't at all feel addressed by such accusations. Life's too short. It's 3AM here & I'm just doing this while waiting for a VM to update. You know how it is. >> "MG" - you seem now to be comparing mainframes to DEC OpenVMS boxes, >> is that correct? > > To the degree that they're both niche platforms, and nowadays more > than they ever were before, yes. Not architecturally. OK. > As I already said, I have never even gotten the opportunity to use > a mainframe, other than perhaps what one can do through emulation > (e.g. through SimH) with various historical offerings. Well, TBH, nor I. I suppose the only difference is that I've done a lot of research & reading on big iron - partly for a white paper I wrote about them for IBM years & years ago. (I am more of a tech writer than a techie these days; you can find a booklet about virtualization by me on Amazon, if you're curious.) > The closest thing to it, the 'quasi-mainframe' as I dared to call > it, was the public access AS/400 of Rechenzentrum Kreuznach. The > only "i" I have ever seen and used (only as an unprivileged user > at that.) I've done a *tiny* bit of maintenance/admin work on AS/400 and System/36. >> Are you asking why mainframes are still around while DEC's OpenVMS >> offerings are long gone? > > Because VMS is supposedly also alive, like the mainframe. But, > at least many VMS people are a bit more honest with themselves > on average and show a bit more self-criticism than the average > IBM (and especially mainframe) type I've been coming across in > the last few years. VMS? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Also, industry-leading clustering. Even now, no other OS can come remotely close. Leading to ridiculous uptimes and so on: take individual nodes of a cluster offline, upgrade them, rejoin, and thus upgrade or even replace an entire server farm with 100% uptime. >> Or are you pointing out that, toward the end, OpenVMS boxes morphed >> into something not unlike high-end PCs and asking why mainframes >> have not done the same? > > No and I'm not sure how you got this out of all that came by so > far. In fact, this was never (from the beginning) VMS' strong > point. I quote: ?I've seen smaller form factor IBM mainframes before, like recently in a YouTube video. Also, whatever prevented IBM from creating more and even more compact mainframes? Like I asked before: What the hell is it with this disturbing 'elitism', 'mainframe royalty'? That of all people, the most republican bunch on this planet (Americans) are defending this goes beyond me...? That seems to me to be essentially asking why we never got miniature, PC-size mainframes. There /were/ PC-size mainframes, back in the day. http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/ibm-5364-s36-pc But in the end, IBM seems to have realised that its revenues came from the big expensive boxes and stopped trying to make little cheap ones. Smart move. >> VAXes and their kin - even big ones - were not true mainframes. > > > I guess not, but then, the definition of "mainframe" is not one > I care tremendously for. I never lost sleep over whether or not > they were considered a "mainframe". At the end of the day, it's more a functional than a systematic definition, I think. >> There used to be 3 types of computer: mainframes, minicomputers and >> microcomputers. At the high end, micros blended into the specialised >> realm of "workstations". (Obviously these are sweeping generalisations >> here.) > > > This is, of course, a bit of an IBM-dictated 'taxonomy'. I mean, > DEC didn't even call its systems "computers" literally at first. > (Think of "PDP".) > > Would that mean a "PDP-11" isn't a computer therefore...? OK, I get the hint. I had no real idea of your level of historical knowledge; you've been too busy sparring with Mr McGuire. > Yes, I'm aware of the notion and idea of "time sharing". Very ancient > stuff though, all in all, to be honest. Not really, no. In essence, modern distributed virtualised datacentres are reinventing, just breathtakingly inelegantly and inefficiently. > I may not have used a mainframe, as I said, but I'm not /that/ unaware > about their functioning. OK. > Many of these characteristics, like with regard to dumb terminals, > are also true for "i" though. At least, I can't think of an "i" > (or, AS/400) that would be operated via direct graphics head/frame- > buffer interface with a 'keyboard & mouse'; you? Well, AS/400 was the last ever new mini, essentially, and it was designed to fit into the existing "ecosystem" of IBM kit: peripherals, terminals, cabling, etc. So it's a weird sort of mini that instead of using RS232 or Ethernet, used IBM 3250 or 5250 (or whatever) terminals via SDLC over Twinax or TokenRing, etc. >> That is historical now, but the point is, mainframes are not >> interactive computers, and that's why they've survived and that's >> also why they never mutated into workstations as the VAX and Alpha >> did. > > It's funny you should mention that, but they were rather poor for > those purposes overall (eventually in the long run). I am not sure what "they" and "those purposes" refer to here. I am not going to guess. The point being that after a while flirting with newfangled ideas like interactive sessions on terminals, mainframes have retreated back to their core strengths, as it were. > I'm aware of some of these concepts. Say, isn't this what the FreeBSD > "jails" are slowly, but surely, trying to mimic a bit? In a way, yes. Conceptually different, but in some ways broadly comparable in effect. But imagine someone building a Linux distro that ran under VMware and had no disk drivers, no filesystem, no display - it /only/ ran by storing files directly in the VMware filesystem, was only accessible via a remote session over the network, etc. You could in principle really pare it right down by not actually having any code to talk to keyboards, mice, displays, any I/O at all except the network, and so on. Some of the IBM guest OSs are like that. Some are more stripped down still and are not OSs as such at all - just, say, an RDBMS or a transaction monitor that runs directly on a bare VM. Whereas with the x86 way of doing things, you have a whole OS, gigs of it, running VMs, inside which it software-emulates a whole PC, and on that runs /another/ whole OS, emulating files in its emulated filesystem on its emulated hard disk on its emulated hard disk controller, displaying pixels on its emulated screen on its emulated graphics card on an emulated PCI bus attached to an emulated CPU - it's horrifically inelegant: layers and layers and layers of duplicated code, 90% of it completely unnecessary, running imaginary tasks on imaginary hardware, because every layer thinks it's on bare metal. And yes, I know about ESXi and so on. VMware are scam artists. The old server ran a whole copy of Red Hat Linux; their precious VMkernel was just a Linux kernel module. Now they've cut that right down and essentially boot the kernel off a bootloader, but it's still an OS. Compare with IBM Series P, where the firmware can create and destroy VMs. The (equivalent of a) BIOS does virtualisation... and the OS, too, if you want it. In several forms. The PC version is a bodge on a bodge on a bodge. >> * Everything is offloaded. These systems have multiple processors, >> sure, like a high-end server, but they have lots of different types of >> processor. Some do computation, some do encryption, some manage >> databases, some just do indexing, some just handle various different >> types of I/O. PC servers cannot even come close to this, but the PC's >> efforts at comparing are things like machines with TCP/IP offload >> engines in their network cards, stacks of dozens of GPGPU cards for >> number crunching, and *in the same case as the PC* both NAS storage >> and SAN storage, talking iSCSI to some devices, Fibrechannel to >> others, SMB to others, NFS to others - all inside a single system, >> using whatever is more appropriate for each workload. Smart dedicated >> sub-computers running each type of storage, so that the "main" >> processor doesn't do /any/ of this for itself; it /only/ runs the >> all-important batch workloads. > > Like I said, it's a beautiful sounding system, I never doubted that. > > My main gripe is the 'elitism' that IBM seems to instill and (like > also someone else admitted) seems to artificially keep alive. [Shrug] It's a niche and a marginal one. It will probably die in time. For now, they are preserving it by killing off the once-thriving compatible-hardware industry - there used to be loads of IBM-compatible kit and software. All gone now except for the original. Also, by making it expensive, because what it is good at is something only a certain type of business wants. I gather it came as a bit of a surprise to IBM when the Linux kernel was ported onto the mainframe CPU, and more so when a couple of companies started selling boxed distros. IBM's response, continuing to anthropomorphise like hell, was to shrug and say "OK, then" and permit it - after initially trying to shut it down. Then it came up with a special mode of its main hypervisor OS that could only run Linux VMs - but was really cheap. Originally, the idea was that you could run a Linux session and have it serve out your mainframe data over those nasty cheap plasticky PC standards ;) and it was cheaper than buying a licence for the IBM mainframe web server, etc. This did well, so it came up with a special edition of the whole OS that only hosted Linux, no other OS - and again was really cheap. Rather to its surprise, IBM mainframe sales have been doing really well in the last decade, and Linux hosting is driving adoption. My impression is that it was amazed but it is a flexible company and it's rolled with it. If people want to buy zSeries to run shedloads of Linux sessions on, hey, IBM is happy to oblige. Bear in mind, though, that in C21, IBM probably considers shifting a dozen units to be a major sales spike. If it's selling hundreds, I'd be amazed. But then, HP's entire Itanium server range has survived for a decade or more on total sales of just single-digit thousands of units. (I've seen some figures. May not be accurate. But I've heard numbers of 3000-odd units, *in total*. Yes really.) (Aside: you mentioned Cell. A similar scandal, effectively hushed-up, was how broken Cell was. The access times for Cell to its local RAM were in kB/sec. Yes really. Not meg, not gig.) > It also --- well, to me anyway --- gives the impression that it's > more of a money making scheme (the 'exclusivity', so to speak) > than a sound future-proof treatment. I think your bias is overwhelming you, TBH. Yes, IBM is selling exclusivity etc., but there is more to the story than that. > I've never seen official performance statistics, just IBM's own > figures. So, I can't comment on how it truly behaves in this > regard. It's like Rolls Royce. "Power: adequate" is all they used to say. If you need to ask, you're not in the target market. > There is a generation, I'm even willing to bet several generations, > that grew up with nothing other than Windows and Linux. Some young > enough have never even experienced nor seen/heard an IBM PC, let > alone the term "IBM PC". Indeed. > Why is this important? Because IBM itself, the company, is also > falling further into obscurity like this, along with "z". Yup. > Will banks continue to run "z"? I guess some will, but I also > read about NonStop and, not surprisingly, the ever encroaching > Linux and even Windows. > > Then there's also the question of the current and upcoming > generations, freshly indoctrinated with notions of "the cloud" > and what-not: How "cloud-ready" is "z"? And to what degree > would they prefer "z" over some Dell or 'brandless' x86 or even > ARM (those seem to be coming, too, now) server? My personal take on it, at 45 after 25y in IT, is that, for the main part, C21 IT is run by clueless idiots and we have got to a lowest-common-denominator, cheap'n'nasty sort of plateau. It's why I want out. Someone or something will disrupt it in time. > Like I wrote before, in the case of the "GAMEframe" setup by that > Brazilian company Hoplon, they wrote they had to offload to "Cell" > processor 'blades'; because otherwise it'd 'tax the "z" too much'. Bear in mind, you pay for CPU bandwidth. It's a metered commodity. Less load = less fees. It's not overstretching the machine, it's overstretching the bank balance. IBM kit the boxes with loads of CPUs and then turn most of 'em off. You pay for 'em when you need 'em and they're remotely enabled. This kind of stunt. Ugly, kinda stinks, but these are not highly price-sensitive performance-sensitive markets. Also, people confuse performance with responsiveness, system size with scalability, etc. There used to be commercial Unix mail server programs that could cheerfully host 30,000 users on a box with a few hundred meg of RAM. Now, people run Hosted Exchange and spawn hundreds of new server instances because the crappy broken software can only handle 1-2 hundred users per box. This is not real scalability; it is using the cheapness of commodity COTS hardware to hide profound scalability problems. Also see, responsiveness vs. performance. E.g. Win7. It's not faster than Vista. It's marginally slower than Vista. But it /feels/ faster because it's been tuned for UI responsiveness. Said responsiveness is still utter crap - BeOS on a Pentium/90 was vastly more responsive in 1998 or so. But it's dead, because it was a niche product and Windows was Good Enough. > When I thus read such things, I become somewhat doubtful of such > claims. It doesn't also help that IBM has made it so relegated > and secluded to themselves and their direct customers, that the > inquiring minds have little insight into these (and hopefully > truthful?) types of performance benchmarks and figures... If you compare a machine with 4 CPUs of a single kind with one with 368 different CPUs of 27 different types, all running different OSes, how do you compare performance? If you just pick one - say the GP arithmetic-logic engine - then the big box will look like utter crap by comparison. Its expensive chips are slower. But its real power is that it has 3581^23 different dedicated processors doing all these different things in different chunks of different types of memory, all at once, and thus can run for years on end at 100% utilisation while preserving the same response time as with 1 task at 1% use. Even TPC measures will be misleading in this sort of scenario, so, IBM avoids benchmarks as much as possible. > How does this work in combination with the "time sharing" operating > principles, though? Please bear with me, as I don't have any > direct experience myself. I have virtually none myself. I freely admit - this is all theoretical, paper knowledge from extensive reading, some of confidential IBM info. Nothing more. It works well when you have something like a multi-tier client-server model, when the server can be offloaded to one of these big engines. Maybe you even have 2 or 3 layers of other server between you and the back end, but eventually, there comes a point where you absolutely positively have to **KNOW** that at the same time as ?42.60 being debited from Mrs Q Smith's account, it was also debiting exactly ?543,432,573,759.43? in riyals from Royal Dutch Shell's account and crediting it to HRH R Saud of Mecca, and both *WILL* go through even if a bomb goes off next door. > Though, with terabytes of RAM, I think many other platforms would > also fare well... Bolt a big enough engine on it, a barn door will fly. > Why isn't IBM more eager to speak of this and show the world what > "z" is truly capable of? Why isn't YouTube loaded with videos > showing these kind of things of, to name something? It's tried. It tried years ago. Have you *looked?* http://www.youtube.com/user/IBMSystemZ It's there. I guess it's stopped shouting about it 'cos word-of-mouth sales were doing just fine. I remember the era when every British computer mag had IBM ads in. Now they're gone. The ads and the mags. > I really don't get it, such a capable platform (I'm told), but > absolutely no desire to expand and increase its user/install > base? It is expanding faster than it's done in years, I believe. Mainly on Linux workloads. You don't see it - but I may as well paraphrase Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman: "It might, or might not, have helped Anathema get a clear view of things if she'd been allowed to spot the very obvious reason why she couldn't see Adam's aura. "It was for the same reason that people in Trafalgar Square can't see England." It's there but they are not playing in the market where people care what brand of tin they are buying. If you even need to ask what kind of server to run, or whether to run Windows Server 2012 with Hyper-V 3 versus vSphere Hypervisor, then you're not a potential customer. So there is absolutely no point advertising. Anyone who notices ads is not a potential customer. These guys make sales by taking the finance director for a weekend in Monte Carlo during the 24H and quietly mentioning possible deals between courses at dinner. > I guess that's another reason why the "GAMEframe" used those > "Cell" processor 'blades'? See billing, above. >> But if you want to serve files on a LAN, or run a thousand instances >> of MariaDB, Perl and Apache running some JSON queries and rendering >> PHP, no, it's a stupid, ruinously expensive way to do that. > > I'll gladly take your word for it, it sounds like you have more > experience with mainframes than I do. Very little - but I know what they're good for, even if I don't swim in the kind of waters where these whales lurk. I'm a minnow. > But, what are your predictions for the future? I mean, it's exactly > these things that are ever-expanding and becoming more and more > common nowadays, aren't they? My predictions? Big picture? We are in the grip of the "worse is better" (q.v.) school and have been since Unix was invented. But Moore's Law has stopped buying us more CPU power. Now Koomey's Law (q.v.) holds. Worse is Better, I think, will run out of steam. The MIT school will finally prevail. Wheels will get reinvented but some old powers may yet rise from the grave. I think we might see some old /styles/ of tech re-invented, but in new forms, free from restrictive patents and copyrights. I think the whole era of Unix-like OSs written in C-like languages and compiled down to object files will go away and something distantly related to Lisp Machines, or Taos/Intent Elate or something similarly radical like that, will take over. But like the French Revolution, it's too soon to tell. (q.v.) Some further reading: http://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/33746.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Apr 8 22:22:44 2013 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 23:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tech is the biggest problem facing archiving ??? The Register In-Reply-To: <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <201304090322.XAA23715@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Why, oh why, would anyone want to run an EOL platform? (Other than > to keep things up and running.) Why would anyone want to run _any_ computer other than to keep things up and running? But there actually are multiple answers to that question. Here are a few that occur to me offhand: - To keep an existing system running, as you mentioned. - Emotional attachments (to the hardware, to the software, whatever). - Interfacing to otherwise useless hardware (today, this might mean Qbus or Sbus; AIUI everything using either is EOLed or worse now). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From xmechanic at landcomp.net Mon Apr 8 22:42:33 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 21:42:33 -0600 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: <024601ce3490$abd96850$038c38f0$@com> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <024601ce3490$abd96850$038c38f0$@com> Message-ID: <51638E29.800@landcomp.net> On 4/8/13 1:38 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 2:00 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 > > Does anybody know anything about this machine? > > Not even a keyboard or monitor port on it! > > Pics are here: > https://plus.google.com/photos/106111250846948401252/albums/5864544551344799 > 681?banner=pwa > > Just had a VERY nice conversation with Tom from Intergraph tech support. > Needless to say, this has been obsolete for many years. It was a plotter > server, ran Clix (proprietary version of Unix), the largest hdd it would > take was a 600mb 68-pin SCSI. It does have a 360kb floppy. Communication > is through the RS-232 port in VT-220 mode only. > > IF he can find the keys, software, and docs for this old beast, he will > email me back. > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6232 - Release Date: 04/08/13 > > > Would be interesting to see if it still works. Hope that guy can score some software for you. ;) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Mon Apr 8 23:28:42 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 21:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer In-Reply-To: <1365481598.86218.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1365481598.86218.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1365481722.72487.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I am looking for a daisy wheel printer to buy I know I need one with a parallel/ Centronics port but what else should I get? ?--- ?tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" ?Child of the Internet born 1983 ?PGP DA98 A195 06AD 1330 7EB0??50C3 724C 9974 A7EF 6006 ?Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - ?http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html ?Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 23:48:50 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 23:48:50 -0500 Subject: Mulling a museum In-Reply-To: <8D00211E0B25C86-828-252B4@webmail-m263.sysops.aol.com> References: <61964963-1365287395-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2021899309-@b11.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5160B26A.2090404@bitsavers.org> <271DC745-4122-4B2B-A5FA-6E5DEB79903F@jonworld.com> <8D00211E0B25C86-828-252B4@webmail-m263.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: could allways have a store thats got a computer musuem taged on the side of it From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 9 00:07:10 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 22:07:10 -0700 Subject: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer In-Reply-To: <1365481722.72487.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1365481598.86218.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1365481722.72487.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5163A1FE.5030508@sydex.com> On 04/08/2013 09:28 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: > I am looking for a daisy wheel printer to buy > > I know I need one with a parallel/ Centronics port > but what else should I get? Typewheels and ribbons (especially!). Some DW printers were configured for tractor feed only--so you'd need forms for that. Too bad you're an ocean away--I've got a couple here. But they're heavy to ship. --Chuck From g-wright at att.net Tue Apr 9 00:59:43 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 22:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: William Donzelli To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, April 8, 2013 2:38:47 PM Subject: Re: IntergraphInterserve 200 > I wish there was an Intergraphwiki or short summary of models with > specs. Maybe I would even choose what I would like to want, if any. Intergraphs are the great forgotten workstations using the great forget microprocessor. But then, Intergraph has been complete dicks about being hobbyist friendly. -- Will They did have a closed door policy to everyone except those with deep pockets and a need for their software. Some of the their workstations where Sun SPARC's and later they built their own Intel based desk top systems. These where very nice systems. Had all for the latest Video, SCSI, Dual Processors, at that time. They ran NT with their software. I still have 2 running at work. They will probably out live me. (None with their software) TD-30 and TDZ-300. The latter is a Dual Pentium PRO. - Jerry From uridium at deviate.fi Mon Apr 8 18:11:09 2013 From: uridium at deviate.fi (..I'd rather be coding ASM!) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 02:11:09 +0300 (EEST) Subject: [N8VEM: 15818] XT-IDE V2 PCBs available In-Reply-To: <000301ce33b9$b70c8360$25258a20$@YAHOO.COM> References: <000301ce33b9$b70c8360$25258a20$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: Hi Andrew, I'm interested in a couple please. One for the Xi8088 and one for my NEC PC4i. I apologise if this has been answered recently (I've really been out of things shifting around all of my storage the last couple of months), but, the 12/5v molex plug that says "MAX 30W" .. is this a power header to run hard disks dragging power through the ISA backplane upto 30 watts? Thanks for your time! Best Wishes, Al. -- -- Al Boyanich adb -w -P "world> " -k /dev/meta/galaxy/ksyms /dev/god/brain From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Apr 9 01:53:23 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 08:53:23 +0200 Subject: TSZ07 PSU P/N 29-28461-01 Schematics? Message-ID: <20130409065323.GA35161@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi there, has someone a technical documentation for the PSU of the TSZ07 9 Track tape drive? My PSU is working but some parts are overheating when the drive is in standby mode where no FAN is running. In the technical manual for the TSZ07 from manx for example are no details, only the replacement procedure is described. .. or has anyone one to sell for small money (prefered in europe because of the shipping costs..) There are shopts that want to sell HP/Compaq/DEC 29-28461-01 fpr $200 and more... thats to much. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Apr 9 02:20:39 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 08:20:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: <5161BBC6.3080603@pico-systems.com> References: <5161BBC6.3080603@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1365492039.97770.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hello there, Jon and Colin, thanks for the shared discussion on an alternative way to align the heads by using a tape prepared with another aligned tape drive. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of the schematics of the Fujitsu M2442AC/M2444AC tape drives being somewhere accessible - at least, I never found or saw them. So I would have to dig through the PCB be with the read amplifiers to find the approriate head signals to observe them with a scope. That's for sure possible, but easier with schematics. By the way, is anybody aware of schematics ever published by Fujitsu for the hard drives or tape drives? They never seemed to be part of their manuals. The only exception I saw so far was the M2435 tape drive labeled as Unisys BT3200 drives. I did put these schematics on bitsavers a couple of years ago. Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ >________________________________ > Von: Jon Elson >An: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Gesendet: 20:32 Sonntag, 7.April 2013 >Betreff: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment > >Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:13:42 +0100 >From: Colin Eby >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >??? >Subject: Re: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > >? Jon, > >? First, lemme reassert my non-expert status on this. > >? However, my understanding of PE -- phase encoding as a raw signal -- >? is that a 0 is a low to high transition(Thomas or reversed high to >? low for IEEE) against a fixed clock time. Successive 0s have to be >? encoded taking the sign low to high, before going high to low again. >? The system is to ignore those signals and simply count the >? transition at the mid-point of the period. Setting the blocking >? aside, doesn't that mean you end up with two transitions in a period >? for every zero. And if you write zero to every channel you get a >? nice sine wave at the pre-amp, with the parity bit being the inverse >? signal (all ones). > > >? NZRI would of course be rather different. But for PE, this is my >? understand of the signal inside a block. I believe that's the signal >? form you were thinking of. > >OH, you meant to write the tape in 1600 BPI (PE) mode!? yes, that would put 3200 >transitions per inch on all data channels, but the parity channel would have its >transitions out of phase with the data channels.? PE mode will write two >transitions for every bit time when the same bit (1 or zero) is written, >but for alternating 1's and zeros, you only get one transition per bit time. >The polarity of the transition at the center of the bit time contains the data >bit, and additional transition needs to be added when the same data bit >follows.? See Page 4-11 of this doc for a picture : > > > >Generally, skew is not worried about so much in PE mode, the drives have >FIFOs to resync the data.? But, of course after repairing the head mounting, it >could be WAY off, too far for the FIFO to correct.? They usually only have >9 bit times worth of skew correction. > >Anyway, most older 800 BPI drives have circuitry built-in to assist in skew adjustment, >an analog summing circuit that adds the output of the 9 bit detectors together. >The stepped square wave is very easy to interpret and adjust on a scope. >I've never done skew adjustment on 1600 or 6250, I think it would be >harder than on 800 BPI. > >I think the best bet is a digital or storage scope, looking at data channels >4 and 5 (the outermost ones on the tape) on two scope channels, and triggering >so the first transitions of a block are seen.? The preamble is 40 bytes of all >zeros, then one 1, followed by the data. > >Jon > > > From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 06:51:33 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 13:51:33 +0200 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 7:59, Jerry Wright wrote: > Some of the their workstations where Sun SPARC's and later they built their > own Intel based desk top systems. This one is likely not one of either, but CLIPPER (look it up). > These where very nice systems. Had all for the latest Video, SCSI, Dual > Processors, at that time. They ran NT with their software. I still have > 2 running at work. They will probably out live me. (None with their > software) TD-30 and TDZ-300. The latter is a Dual Pentium > PRO. You're thinking of different systems now. (Those came later.) - MG From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 08:24:14 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 08:24:14 -0500 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Here's what my friend has to say about the machine: A very low end clipper based server for graphics and other uses even numbers in other languages work. It was a 5 mips Clipper C 100 processor( a lot for 1989) with a Intel 80186 io processor with 8 or 16 MB of memory. Probably used the same card set as the low end workstation with out the graphics. It probably ran System V Unix. Collectors of obscure computer may be interested. I think I have a processor card for it. If it had graphics it would be called an Interpro 200. You may have trouble filling up the 166MB drive. About 5x faster than a VAX780. I had a very similar machine for a home machine for quite a few years. Vern had a C100 as a home machine also. Where did you run across it? http://www.cc-computerarchiv.de/CC-Archiv/edv-alt/ge-intg/ge-intg-6_89.html On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:51 AM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 7:59, Jerry Wright wrote: > >> Some of the their workstations where Sun SPARC's and later they built >> their >> own Intel based desk top systems. >> > > This one is likely not one of either, but CLIPPER (look it up). > > > > These where very nice systems. Had all for the latest Video, SCSI, Dual >> Processors, at that time. They ran NT with their software. I still have >> 2 running at work. They will probably out live me. (None with their >> software) TD-30 and TDZ-300. The latter is a Dual Pentium >> PRO. >> > > You're thinking of different systems now. (Those came later.) > > - MG > From sales at elecplus.com Tue Apr 9 09:05:45 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 09:05:45 -0500 Subject: Intergraph Interserve 200 In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01ce348b$41a390a0$c4eab1e0$@com> <51632187.5080106@xs4all.nl> <1365487183.24188.YahooMailRC@web181406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <516400C5.3070603@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <010e01ce352b$549d1690$fdd743b0$@com> This one came with a batch of plotters from US military surplus years ago. Cindy Croxton Here's what my friend has to say about the machine: A very low end clipper based server for graphics and other uses even numbers in other languages work. It was a 5 mips Clipper C 100 processor( a lot for 1989) with a Intel 80186 io processor with 8 or 16 MB of memory. Probably used the same card set as the low end workstation with out the graphics. It probably ran System V Unix. Collectors of obscure computer may be interested. I think I have a processor card for it. If it had graphics it would be called an Interpro 200. You may have trouble filling up the 166MB drive. About 5x faster than a VAX780. I had a very similar machine for a home machine for quite a few years. Vern had a C100 as a home machine also. Where did you run across it? http://www.cc-computerarchiv.de/CC-Archiv/edv-alt/ge-intg/ge-intg-6_89.html ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6234 - Release Date: 04/09/13 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 09:45:49 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 10:45:49 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> On 04/08/2013 06:50 PM, MG wrote: > On 8-apr-2013 23:56, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Nope, I didn't tell you anything. Merely asked a question of the >> group; regarding the allowed headgear when participating here. >> >> It'd be kinda cramped to live under a mainframe, but I'd stay warm >> at least. >> >> Have a good day, Mr. Troll. :) > > Said the coward who called someone a nut, not even willing to say > why (or let alone substantiate such claims/smears), but is too > yellow to even admit having done so. > > - MG Coward? Nah, cowards don't come back for more. And I didn't call you a nut, I just implied in a round-about way that you seem to be a person in the conspiracy theory camp. As for admitting or not, Just having a little fun with words. As for your claim of IBM "...don't want people (and the /little people/ in particular) to find out that they've been providing the "mainframe" backbone for all those /nice/ bailed-out banks..." it does strike me as a conspiracy theory, hence my wise-crack. However, if you can provide evidence to back this up (not counting blogs from some unknown guy & dubious news articles) I will change my mind. As for their bank customers, couldn't one find that info out from IBM's SEC filings? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 09:46:46 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 10:46:46 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516429D6.7060902@sbcglobal.net> On 04/08/2013 07:13 PM, MG wrote: > > (By the way, are you the same 'Dave'?) > Check the sigs. Mr. McGuire & I are different people. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 09:57:51 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 10:57:51 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51635570.6050208@neurotica.com> References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> <51635570.6050208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51642C6F.6000707@sbcglobal.net> On 04/08/2013 07:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/08/2013 07:13 PM, MG wrote: >> On 8-apr-2013 23:42, Dave wrote: >>> I do hate answering the obvious trolling, but I am weak willed so >>> some answers in lin >> >> You thought by calling me names (e.g. "troll") I'd 'back down'? >> What kind of logic is behind that? You only make me more 'eager' >> to inquire and get to the bottom of this. >> >> Note that I was never 'trolling', just critically interested in what >> this "z" stuff entails nowadays and cross-referencing articles of >> well-known publications (like The Register). Maybe no intentionally trolling, but by the way you presented your arguments, and the lack of links to back up the claims, it most certainly comes across as trolling. > I cannot sit still for this one. > > You are not "critically interested". You sit there spouting off > "MAINFRAMES ARE DEAD, YOU ARE A RELIC IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE" in various > ways, trolling with your cluelessness and tired old rhetoric. > > Do not EVEN try to bring any degree of respectability to the shit you've > spewed here. There was no "critically interested" about it. You are a > clueless troll, nothing more, and nothing less. And there's MORE...See below! > >> So far, no refutations, just name-calling. Well, a bit of something >> vaguely resembling a /discussion/ is slowly returning. So, I guess >> that's a good sign and it's not all lost yet. >> >> (By the way, are you the same 'Dave'?) > > He is not the same "Dave". Yeah, sorry 'bout adding that confusion, Dave... ;) >> HP is only keeping up appearances with its IA-64 offerings, just >> to annoy Oracle and that's about it, it seems. I doubt Oracle >> in turn would keep the SPARC stuff alive much longer either, >> they seem /content/ with their x86 things. > > Keep reading the news, you're missing stuff. The latest SPARC hit the > streets a week or two ago. Are you pretending to know more about the SPARC > market than Oracle now, as well as knowing more about the mainframe market > than IBM? > > What color IS the sky in your world, anyway? > > -Dave > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 10:14:13 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:14:13 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 16:45, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Coward? Nah, cowards don't come back for more. And I didn't call > you a nut, I just implied in a round-about way that you seem to be a > person in the conspiracy theory camp. So, how is that not equivalent to calling someone a 'nut'? Also, how are the bank bail-outs a "conspiracy"? Then the entire media of various countries have been reporting on a "conspiracy theory"? Then the U.S. Congress, various European governments, etc. have not really concealed those "conspiracies" much either, or have they? > As for your claim of IBM "...don't want people (and the /little > people/ in particular) to find out that they've been providing the > "mainframe" backbone for all those /nice/ bailed-out banks..." it does > strike me as a conspiracy theory, hence my wise-crack. Why is that a "conspiracy theory"? IBM, as others have said, does a lot of business supposedly with these banks. Or are you hereby saying that that is a hoax? You may want to take that up with the IBM propagandists, in other words. > However, if you can provide evidence to back this up (not counting > blogs from some unknown guy & dubious news articles) I will change my > mind. (Re-)Read this thread for starters, see the claims of "z" being very proliferated in the world of big banking. > As for their bank customers, couldn't one find that info out > from IBM's SEC filings? I guess so? (I'm not from America.) - MG From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 10:36:19 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:36:19 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51643573.2090803@sbcglobal.net> On 04/08/2013 08:56 PM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 2:15, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I dunno, I had quite a few of them in my datacenter. They >> were very common in my world. Some of them still are. > > Why, oh why, would anyone want to run an EOL platform? (Other than > to keep things up and running.) Because they can? They enjoy it. I believe that's the whole point of ClassiCMP, if I'm not mistaken... >> As I said, which is quoted below, IN THE 1990s. > > I was also talking about the present. I know, not your favorite > place to be. Sorry about that. > > >> Dropping a quarter mil on a big server isn't usually done via >> ads in computer magazines. > > Are you now denying the existence of such ads? Also, I wouldn't > call (e.g.) an AlphaStation 200, Digital Personal WorkStation or > something else of (roughly) that proportion a "big server". Umm, "..isn't usually done..." does not equal denial. Notice the word "usually". >> Are you under some impression that these machines were intended >> for home use by consumers?? > > I keep forgetting that it's wholly illogical and unreasonable for > people to run systems in their small(er) business environments and, > /gawd forbid/, at home! Well, depends upon the system. In this particular discussion, using a mainframe for SMB or home use is like hunting a squirrel with a gatling gun. > You'd be surprised at the amount of things that were ported (think > of F/OSS offerings) to VMS by those evil, non-millionaire, scum > /little people/ you so dearly despise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never read Dave saying he despised the "little people" (nor anyone else, really) that you refer to. However, judging by the way this is going, I think it's safe to say he despises email trolls. >> It was no easier nor more difficult than building things on any >> other OS. > > How about now? Keep this also in mind for the below paragraphs. > > >>> Digital/Tru64 UNIX saw quite a bit of usage, especially here. >>> Many companies and government agencies ran VMS and Tru64 UNIX, >>> but it's sadly all dead now and gone to Windows and Linux. >> >> ALL of it, huh? *chuckle* > > Why would anyone want to run an EOL (read: dead) operating > system without even a community left? (Thanks to the PAKs > not being provided any longer.) See my first comment above... > Guess what subsequently happened to F/OSS offerings, to make > it even less attractive? > > The only people still running Tru64 UNIX, over here at least, > are in the process of moving to emulators and some --- those > daring enough --- moving to HP-UX on HP's miracle denialware > (better known as IPF, a.k.a. IA-64 or... /Itanic/ by some). > > >> ...for the cheap consumer market, and the idiots... > > You mean the non-millionaire /little people/? > > So, who exactly are the "idiots" now? Tru64 UNIX is dead > now and it has been for many years. > > HP didn't even proceed to port off things like TruCluster, > AdvFS, etc. to HP-UX, as they promised in the roadmaps at > the time (around 2003~'05). > > >> Besides, DEC would *give* you OSF/1 if you bought an >> Alpha, in nearly all cases. Once again, you're dead wrong. > > Oh, right, that's why nearly everything was bolted down with > PAKs? (Product Activation Keys, in case you may have perhaps > forgotten.) > > >> I didn't work in that world. It was owned by SGI anyway; >> Alphas were never a serious player in that world. > > No, they didn't, but they did make some inroads when it came > to raw number crunching; you know, rendering (like I wrote > about earlier). > > Those NT AXP systems supposedly outran some SGI IRIX/MIPS > systems at the time. (Note: I'm a huge SGI fan, I also own > a good amount of them and still run them, including a close- > to-max'ed out quad-processor Tezro.) > > >> Here we go again! > > So, where is SGI now? Where is (pre-Oracle) Sun now? Where > is SCO now? Where is DEC itself now? Where are all those > HP-UX, AIX, etc. workstations now? > > - MG -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 8 10:55:51 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 08:55:51 -0700 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5162E887.8080004@sydex.com> On 04/08/2013 04:53 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Have you used the "verbatim search" feature? > > Peace... Sridhar Have G changed the rules again? It wasn't that long ago that quotes around a search term meant "exactly this". What's the current convention? --Chuck From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 10:50:33 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:50:33 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51637183.70007@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51637183.70007@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516438C9.9000107@sbcglobal.net> On 04/08/2013 09:40 PM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 2:35, Liam Proven wrote: > > Like I said, it's a beautiful sounding system, I never doubted that. > > My main gripe is the 'elitism' that IBM seems to instill and (like > also someone else admitted) seems to artificially keep alive. > > It also --- well, to me anyway --- gives the impression that it's > more of a money making scheme (the 'exclusivity', so to speak) > than a sound future-proof treatment. Well IBM _is_ a publicly traded company, and aside from making good systems, they also have to make money for themselves & their shareholders. While you may not like how they do it, they are making money. >> Imagine a whole server room, hell, a whole datacentre, with hundreds >> of independent servers - some running Windows, some Linux, some >> Solaris, some Netapp Filers, some dedicated SQL servers, all in a >> single rack, managed as a single instance, with 100% compatibility and >> all the components, from the processor chips to the disk drives to the >> network cards to all the OSs, all coming from a single vendor, all >> optimised for handling big server workloads with /better than/ 99.999% >> availability. > > I've never seen official performance statistics, just IBM's own > figures. So, I can't comment on how it truly behaves in this > regard. > > >> That is why people still buy (or more to the point, rent) mainframes. > > There is a generation, I'm even willing to bet several generations, > that grew up with nothing other than Windows and Linux. Some young > enough have never even experienced nor seen/heard an IBM PC, let > alone the term "IBM PC". > > Why is this important? Because IBM itself, the company, is also > falling further into obscurity like this, along with "z". Really? IBM? Obscurity? Heh heh heh... I'll believe that when I see it. IBM has been pretty good at updating things to stay in the game. However, if you can back up your claim of IBM going obscure... >> I am not talking about a system that is 5? or 10? more scalable. >> I'm talking about something 50? or 100? more scalable. Not >> supporting hundreds of users per box, but millions of users per >> box. > > Why isn't IBM more eager to speak of this and show the world what > "z" is truly capable of? Why isn't YouTube loaded with videos > showing these kind of things of, to name something? Because the people that care about this, and need to know, don't "need no stinkin'" ads & youtube videos to know who to call. > I really don't get it, such a capable platform (I'm told), but > absolutely no desire to expand and increase its user/install > base? Oh, I'm sure they would love to expand their mainframe business. But the people that need that get treated differently. IBM would have a sales guy go to the potential client. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 10:57:22 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 11:57:22 -0400 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <5162E887.8080004@sydex.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> <5162E887.8080004@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51643A62.6000901@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/08/2013 04:53 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Have you used the "verbatim search" feature? > > Have G changed the rules again? It wasn't that long ago that quotes > around a search term meant "exactly this". What's the current convention? On search results, go to "All Results"->"Verbatim". I'd love for them to allow one to set that up as default for one's Google account. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 9 11:04:46 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 12:04:46 -0400 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <51643A62.6000901@gmail.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> <5162E887.8080004@sydex.com> <51643A62.6000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51643C1E.9070501@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2013 11:57 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 04/08/2013 04:53 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >>> Have you used the "verbatim search" feature? >> >> Have G changed the rules again? It wasn't that long ago that quotes >> around a search term meant "exactly this". What's the current convention? > > On search results, go to "All Results"->"Verbatim". I'd love for them to > allow one to set that up as default for one's Google account. Are you sure they don't? If so...I wonder why. Weird. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 11:08:01 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:08:01 -0400 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <51643A62.6000901@gmail.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> <5162E887.8080004@sydex.com> <51643A62.6000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01B8FAF2-53C1-4BFA-8D68-FF75EE6B054F@gmail.com> On Apr 9, 2013, at 11:57 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 04/08/2013 04:53 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >>> Have you used the "verbatim search" feature? >> >> Have G changed the rules again? It wasn't that long ago that quotes >> around a search term meant "exactly this". What's the current convention? > > On search results, go to "All Results"->"Verbatim". I'd love for them to allow one to set that up as default for one's Google account. Oh, that's really good to know. I'm tired of my searches for DECNET being dominated by results for "decent". Yes, Google, I can spell. - Dave From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Apr 9 11:08:40 2013 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 18:08:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: pdp-11/23 config Message-ID: allison wrote: [RX02 or RX50] > > Mass storage for my system is another area I need to spend more thought on, for now I was planning to stay with the RL drives I got with the case. > > > In the PDP11 world its easy to build a system that forgets portable IO. > A reminder PDP-11 as not a PC and even a 256kb floppy is viable storage > as RT11 fits on it. I'm not sure what I'd need it for? There is no other system within walking distance that would understand the floppy format natively. Any file I/O thus most likely will happen across the Internet (involving a PC anyway), so I hoped I'd be fine with the TU58 emulation software discussed below. >> RL packs were over 160$ new (...) > cables, terminators and those annoying and scarce drive ID plugs. Terminator: check. ID plugs 0 and 1: check. Cables: no check yet but inbound. > If anything the floppy is always a must on my systems as all my diags and > base RT11 systems are on that media (RX01, RX02, RX50, RX33, RX23). Are they also available in TU58 (file) format? > A viable uVAX is more than 150mb, (more like 300-500 for V7), > a loaded PDP11 is 30MB. Just difference is OS utilization. So I guess it all boils down on what one wants to run on it. I've got one functional RD53 in it right now, and a second one I hope to revive at some point in the future. > I would not covet a large drive unless you had the application that > required it. I thought that we here run large drives just for the kicks of it?! > > I do have a TQK(mumble) board already (which was originally also intended for the VSII), but no drive yet. > Save it as loading diags from TK50 is both slow and painful assuming the system can boot a tK50 (not guaranteed). ?? (not understanding the above). I should save the controller because the whole subsystem is bad? [core] > The older LSI11 systems had it if there was a call for non volatile > memory, the cost was high. > I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle > time than Ram of > the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on the day was > under 1us and dropping. So thus probably not very prevalent and not easy to find nowadays. Ho hum. I've also already found out that the memory board I'll be getting is 512k_Bytes_ (256kW) and does _not_ have BBU support. [OS question] > Start with RT11 as a base os and it will allow you to test and get comfortable at lower > cost to learn. It will be transferable knowledge to RSTS or RSX, may help with getting Unix > on the machine. Agreed, sounds like a good starting point. So long, Arno From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 11:14:08 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:14:08 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiving_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516429D6.7060902@sbcglobal.net> References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> <516429D6.7060902@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > Check the sigs. Mr. McGuire & I are different people. Cripes, guys, just drop it and plonk the guy already. The humour value of the thread went South some time ago. -- Will From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 11:15:10 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 12:15:10 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51643E8E.9040101@sbcglobal.net> On 04/09/2013 11:14 AM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 16:45, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Coward? Nah, cowards don't come back for more. And I didn't call >> you a nut, I just implied in a round-about way that you seem to be a >> person in the conspiracy theory camp. > > So, how is that not equivalent to calling someone a 'nut'? Because when the word nut is used in this slang way, it means the person is crazy and should be committed. Conspiracy-theoriest, however, are not crazy. They just believe things are different from what others believe. > Also, how are the bank bail-outs a "conspiracy"? Then the entire > media of various countries have been reporting on a "conspiracy > theory"? Then the U.S. Congress, various European governments, > etc. have not really concealed those "conspiracies" much either, > or have they? > >> As for your claim of IBM "...don't want people (and the /little >> people/ in particular) to find out that they've been providing the >> "mainframe" backbone for all those /nice/ bailed-out banks..." it does >> strike me as a conspiracy theory, hence my wise-crack. > > Why is that a "conspiracy theory"? IBM, as others have said, does > a lot of business supposedly with these banks. Or are you hereby > saying that that is a hoax? I don't believe that I stated the bail-outs were a conspiracy, or at least I did not intend to. It was your claim of IBM trying to hide the fact that they supply mainframes to those bank, that sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Again, if you have proof of them doing this, then I will change my tune on that. As has been mentioned before, and Liam did it the best.. IBM doesn't need to talk about their mainframe customers publicly. They could if they want; but in that league, personal contact is the way to do it. > You may want to take that up with the IBM propagandists, in other > words. It is your use of phrases like that, "propagandists", that lead people to believe you are trolling. If you could rephrase that, it would go a long way. >> However, if you can provide evidence to back this up (not counting >> blogs from some unknown guy & dubious news articles) I will change my >> mind. > > (Re-)Read this thread for starters, see the claims of "z" being very > proliferated in the world of big banking. I've followed this thread, since I was the one who posted the email that started this brouhaha. Haven't seen any proof, links to good sources. >> As for their bank customers, couldn't one find that info out >> from IBM's SEC filings? > > I guess so? (I'm not from America.) Not being a financial guy, I honestly don't know either. Anyone? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 9 11:21:26 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 12:21:26 -0400 Subject: finding things on the internet In-Reply-To: <01B8FAF2-53C1-4BFA-8D68-FF75EE6B054F@gmail.com> References: <039d01ce3242$38ccf6b0$aa66e410$@com> <515F42A3.9090301@neurotica.com> <515F4EBB.1040807@att.net> <515F6598.9000105@sydex.com> <5162AFAF.4070406@gmail.com> <5162E887.8080004@sydex.com> <51643A62.6000901@gmail.com> <01B8FAF2-53C1-4BFA-8D68-FF75EE6B054F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51644006.6010608@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2013 12:08 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>> Have you used the "verbatim search" feature? >>> >>> Have G changed the rules again? It wasn't that long ago that quotes >>> around a search term meant "exactly this". What's the current convention? >> >> On search results, go to "All Results"->"Verbatim". I'd love for them to allow one to set that up as default for one's Google account. > > Oh, that's really good to know. I'm tired of my searches for > DECNET being dominated by results for "decent". Yes, Google, > I can spell. Perhaps Google's algorithms just really like DECnet. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 9 11:30:32 2013 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 12:30:32 -0400 Subject: For Free - Local Pickup Putnam, NY 10512 In-Reply-To: <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> Message-ID: <51644228.6050303@atarimuseum.com> For free - Viewsonic 19" XVGA Color Monitor, Black - Model # E90fB http://www1.viewsonic.com/products/archive/e90fb.htm Barely used, bought it for a project that I never pursued, in the middle of Spring Cleaning and I would like to get it out of my office as its been sitting on the floor in the corner for quite sometime collecting dust. Anyone who wants it and is local and can pick it up, please contact me offlist to make arrangements. Curt From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 11:56:07 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 09:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130409094436.A99301@shell.lmi.net> > It'd be kinda cramped to live under a mainframe, but I'd stay warm > at least. Aren't Mainframe rooms still kept cold? (probably not as noisy, anymore) How much cabling is there in the subfloor? > ...don't want people (and the /little people/ in particular) to find out > that they've been providing the "mainframe" backbone for all those > /nice/ bailed-out banks... WHY would they CARE what you or anybody else who isn't a customer (or qualified lead) know or think about their affiliations with bankers, guvmints, or the nazis in WW2? If it makes them MONEY, then they aren't ashamed of ANYTHING. Or do you think that they would try to conceal their involvement out of fear that they might lose YOU as a potential customer? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 11:58:54 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 09:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, MG wrote: > Why is that a "conspiracy theory"? IBM, as others have said, does > a lot of business supposedly with these banks. Or are you hereby > saying that that is a hoax? IBM does a lot of business with ANYBODY with that kind of money. They are not interested in you or me, or what we think; we don't have that kind of money. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 12:06:47 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:06:47 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07A6944F-592D-48D4-A4EA-8669ACDD6201@gmail.com> On Apr 9, 2013, at 12:08, "Arno Kletzander" wrote: >> I would not covet a large drive unless you had the application that >> required it. > > I thought that we here run large drives just for the kicks of it?! Well, maybe. I have an MSCP SCSI card (DU: to RSX) and I have a 2GB SCSI drive attached to it. RSX-11M deals fine with all that space, but it's a huge waste since I'll never ever use it. Also, the huge volume size means a PIP/FR takes about 15 minutes (not an exaggeration, I timed it). If you mean physically large drives, yeah, they're fun, but I know at least I couldn't justify the power bill. - Dave From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 12:29:56 2013 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 13:29:56 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, MG wrote: >> Why is that a "conspiracy theory"? IBM, as others have said, does >> a lot of business supposedly with these banks. Or are you hereby >> saying that that is a hoax? > > IBM does a lot of business with ANYBODY with that kind of money. > They are not interested in you or me, or what we think; we don't have that > kind of money. Actually, they are interested in us. They just don't consider us the market for z. The prices for entry-level p has been in small business territory for quite a long time. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 9 12:30:13 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 10:30:13 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <20130409094436.A99301@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <20130409094436.A99301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51645025.5000901@sydex.com> On 04/09/2013 09:56 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> It'd be kinda cramped to live under a mainframe, but I'd stay warm >> at least. > > Aren't Mainframe rooms still kept cold? > (probably not as noisy, anymore) > How much cabling is there in the subfloor? That's relative. When I was on a boondoggle trip to Minneapolis in January during the Arab Oil Embargo, the machine room was the WARMEST place to hang out. I'd grab my motel pillow and hunker down with a good book between a couple of SBUs. Mmmmm, toasty... --Chuck From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 12:50:12 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 13:50:12 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51645025.5000901@sydex.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <20130409094436.A99301@shell.lmi.net> <51645025.5000901@sydex.com> Message-ID: <516454D4.5040102@sbcglobal.net> On 04/09/2013 01:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 04/09/2013 09:56 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> It'd be kinda cramped to live under a mainframe, but I'd stay warm >>> at least. >> >> Aren't Mainframe rooms still kept cold? >> (probably not as noisy, anymore) >> How much cabling is there in the subfloor? > > That's relative. When I was on a boondoggle trip to Minneapolis in > January during the Arab Oil Embargo, the machine room was the WARMEST > place to hang out. I'd grab my motel pillow and hunker down with a good > book between a couple of SBUs. Mmmmm, toasty... > > --Chuck > > Thanks guys, killing my humor... ;) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 13:10:43 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 14:10:43 -0400 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME =?windows-1252?Q?=95_The?= =?windows-1252?Q?_Register?= Message-ID: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely on topic (Mac Cube). And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_roundup/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 13:17:29 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:17:29 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51645B39.40200@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 18:58, Fred Cisin wrote: > IBM does a lot of business with ANYBODY with that kind of money. > They are not interested in you or me, or what we think; we don't > have that kind of money. That is one of the few things that I knew from the start. I don't know how many millionaires and big bank data center architects/ support types are on this list, but it's usually not the type of company or business people --- or, I personally anyway --- would become very /affectionate/ about. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 13:20:45 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:20:45 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51645BFD.9010304@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 19:29, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Actually, they are interested in us. They just don't consider > us the market for z. The prices for entry-level p has been in > small business territory for quite a long time. IBM is convinced that their mainframe, although at some point in the future virtually no one will have heard of it, will somehow remain desirable. (Invisible telepathic marketing, perhaps?) Also, if you're interested in getting a pack of angry IBM types after you, you should proceed to roughly equate "p" to "z" in any way. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 13:22:32 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:22:32 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <20130409094436.A99301@shell.lmi.net> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <20130409094436.A99301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51645C68.8000103@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 18:56, Fred Cisin wrote: > WHY would they CARE what you or anybody else who isn't a customer (or > qualified lead) know or think about their affiliations with bankers, > guvmints, or the nazis in WW2? If it makes them MONEY, then they > aren't ashamed of ANYTHING. And /gawd bless them/! > Or do you think that they would try to conceal their involvement out > of fear that they might lose YOU as a potential customer? I'll admit, that's a good one! - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 13:31:46 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:31:46 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_?= =?windows-1252?Q?ALL_TIME_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 20:10, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & > Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely > on topic (Mac Cube). > And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting > read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No > bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... > If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) > > The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME > Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_roundup/ The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but the paupers didn't even mention /one/ SGI. How the hell is that possible? Even their saint Steve Jobs spoke well of SGI, very well actually. (Also, to hell with them and their multi-page layout. Are they so desperate to maximize their ad revenues that they have to resort to that?!) - MG From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 9 13:36:26 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 14:36:26 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51645BFD.9010304@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> <51645BFD.9010304@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51645FAA.30306@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2013 02:20 PM, MG wrote: > IBM is convinced that their mainframe, although at some point > in the future virtually no one will have heard of it, will > somehow remain desirable. (Invisible telepathic marketing, > perhaps?) Is this another expression of being "critically interested"? > Also, if you're interested in getting a pack of angry IBM types > after you, you should proceed to roughly equate "p" to "z" in > any way. No. To be WRONG, you should proceed to roughly equate "p" to "z" in any way. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jon at jonworld.com Tue Apr 9 13:38:08 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:38:08 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95?= =?windows-1252?Q?_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <278D2ACC-0B81-496C-B652-C53CB2561EED@jonworld.com> On Apr 9, 2013, at 2:10 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely on topic (Mac Cube). > And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion? This will open some mouths and keyboards. El Reg has a slight UK bias and it clearly shows by giving the Sinclair ZX series two spots on the list. I do believe the Mac Cube is an awesome design, even if prone to overheating. Home hackers have made them into dual-processor systems, too. I also think the C64 has a better design than the C128, but what do I know? The comments on the article at El Reg say it all. No CM-2 or CM-5, no SGIs. No Sun E10k or CS6400 (each kind of sexy cabinet systems in their own right.) CM-2: http://www.mission-base.com/tamiko/cm/cm-image.html CM-5: http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/Cyberia/MetaComp/CM5.html SGI Tezro or Indy? Indy: http://www.sgistuff.net/hardware/systems/indy.html Tezro: http://www.nekochan.net/gallery2/v/SGI_Photos/album121/ CS6400: [ 2 cabinets on the left; the right are just disk arrays ] http://perfectionistsatwork.com/Cray-SUNs-AllSystems-800x600.jpg From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 13:46:31 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:46:31 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Remove the ZX81, whose keyboard disqualifies it from any list of best anything. Substitute in the Thinking Machines TM-1. On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & > Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely on > topic (Mac Cube). > And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting > read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No > bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... > If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) > > The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME > Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out > http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_** > computers_roundup/ > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.**org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 9 14:10:38 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:10:38 -0700 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Honestly, I'm really surprised by the list. I was surprised first by the C-128, and even more surprised by the time I got to #10. I didn't take time to see if they listed criteria for the choices, but I find the machines selected to be odd. I for one would have put a BeBox in the list (and I've never even seen one). I'd have likely also included the G5 PowerMac (and current Mac Pro's) for their case. Zane At 2:10 PM -0400 4/9/13, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air >& Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is >barely on topic (Mac Cube). > And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an >interesting read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the >list? No bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... >If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) > >The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME >Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_roundup/ >-- >--- Dave Woyciesjes >--- ICQ# 905818 >--- AIM - woyciesjes >--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ >--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > >"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." >"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 9 14:13:22 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:13:22 -0700 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: At 8:31 PM +0200 4/9/13, MG wrote: >The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but the paupers >didn't even mention /one/ SGI. How the hell is that possible? >Even their saint Steve Jobs spoke well of SGI, very well actually. Who remembers SGI? When I wrote my previous email, even I forgot them. :-( The Octane, O2, and Tezro should all be on the list! :-) Maybe Sun's SunBlade 1000 as well. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From colineby at isallthat.com Tue Apr 9 14:15:19 2013 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:15:19 +0100 Subject: System 36 SSP 5.25" Media Message-ID: <47173197-9F9F-4F6A-86B9-10781F2C8F7F@isallthat.com> All, Every couple of years I throw this one out there. Would anyone have a copy of the media for an IBM System/36 5363 -- that the second version of the 5.25" distribution. I'd love to get my hands on a copy if anyone has such a thing, either physically or as an image set. -Colin From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 9 14:24:01 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:24:01 +0100 Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?RE:_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_._The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <012101ce3557$ce2744f0$6a75ced0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Woyciesjes > Sent: 09 April 2013 19:11 > To: ClassicCMP > Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME . The Register > > Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & > Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely on > topic (Mac Cube). > And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting read. > But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No bickering, we all > know everyone has their own opinion... > If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) > > The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME > Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_ro > undup/ > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. How about the Connection Machine: http://people.csail.mit.edu/bradley/cm5/ Regards Rob From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 14:32:25 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 21:32:25 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <51634F19.8000109@xs4all.nl> <516429D6.7060902@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51646CC9.1070803@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 18:14, William Donzelli wrote: > Cripes, guys, just drop it and plonk the guy already. The humour > value of the thread went South some time ago. Dear lord, you are weak. - MG From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 14:35:36 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 15:35:36 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_?= =?windows-1252?Q?ALL_TIME_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51646D88.6020105@sbcglobal.net> On 04/09/2013 02:31 PM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 20:10, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & >> Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely >> on topic (Mac Cube). >> And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting >> read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No >> bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... >> If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) >> >> The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME >> Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_roundup/ >> > > The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but the paupers > didn't even mention /one/ SGI. How the hell is that possible? > Even their saint Steve Jobs spoke well of SGI, very well actually. Well, everyone has their own opinions, their own idea of what's sexy. I asked for others suggestions, not bickering about what someone else chose. And yes, I do think SGI should have been represented. > (Also, to hell with them and their multi-page layout. Are they so > desperate to maximize their ad revenues that they have to resort > to that?!) > Maybe? I just think though that it;s easier to read that way, instead of scrolling forever. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 14:38:12 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 12:38:12 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_?= =?windows-1252?Q?ALL_TIME_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51646E24.5030205@gmail.com> On 4/9/2013 11:31 AM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 20:10, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & >> Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely >> on topic (Mac Cube). >> And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting >> read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No >> bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... >> If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) >> >> The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME >> Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_roundup/ >> > > The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but the paupers > didn't even mention /one/ SGI. How the hell is that possible? > Even their saint Steve Jobs spoke well of SGI, very well actually. > > (Also, to hell with them and their multi-page layout. Are they so > desperate to maximize their ad revenues that they have to resort > to that?!) > > - MG I have to agree. It's a little more forgivable when you look at this being a UK paper and they probably picked computers that were popular there. I've never heard anyone call a Sinclair anything sexy. A paper in the US would have a completely different list. To me the only one that really belongs on that list is the NeXT. The Cray is nice but, such expensive limited production stuff shouldn't really be considered. Otherwise it would probably be impossible to pick ten. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 14:38:55 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 21:38:55 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51643573.2090803@sbcglobal.net> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <51643573.2090803@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51646E4F.2060906@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 17:36, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Because they can? They enjoy it. I believe that's the whole > point of ClassiCMP, if I'm not mistaken... Did you miss the part where I said I run Tru64 UNIX myself? (And the part, for that matter, that many --- over here, at least --- are moving away from that platform. Or, actually, already moved away.) >>> Dropping a quarter mil on a big server isn't usually done via >>> ads in computer magazines. >> >> Are you now denying the existence of such ads? Also, I wouldn't >> call (e.g.) an AlphaStation 200, Digital Personal WorkStation or >> something else of (roughly) that proportion a "big server". > > Umm, "..isn't usually done..." does not equal denial. Notice the > word "usually". It equaled none for me, because I never saw anything other than those AlphaPC, AXPpci, etc. offerings (like I said at least twice before). Maybe you should reread some posts? > Well, depends upon the system. In this particular discussion, > using a mainframe for SMB or home use is like hunting a squirrel > witha gatling gun. What about getting any exposure to this platform at all? What about allowing people to get acquainted with it? What about allowing people the chance to port and develop software for this platform? (See also the example I gave with VMS earlier.) > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never read Dave saying he despised > the "little people" (nor anyone else, really) that you refer to. Then you probably didn't read this thread very well. - MG From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 9 14:41:07 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 12:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Jason McBrien wrote: > Remove the ZX81, whose keyboard disqualifies it from any list of best > anything. > Oh I don't know. The lack of keys means you won't shear any off when you wedge it under a door... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 14:43:27 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 21:43:27 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <516438C9.9000107@sbcglobal.net> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51637183.70007@xs4all.nl> <516438C9.9000107@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51646F5F.4090302@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 17:50, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Well IBM _is_ a publicly traded company, and aside from making > good systems, they also have to make money for themselves & their > shareholders. While you may not like how they do it, they are making > money. It sounds more like there are a bunch of big freeloaders at the top of IBM, just like in many other companies (HP immediately springs to mind), who care more for their own, personal, immediate needs --- their car park, yachts and private jets --- than the prolonged existence of their niche and "legacy" product lines. > Because the people that care about this, and need to know, > don't "need no stinkin'" ads & youtube videos to know who to call. That's something of and for the /little people/, now isn't it? I guess that's true then. > Oh, I'm sure they would love to expand their mainframe business. And world peace too, don't forget world peace. Maybe throw in "going green" also, while they're at it. > But the people that need that get treated differently. IBM would have > a sales guy go to the potential client. How delightfully 1950s, so in a way also a bit like a door-to-door vacuum cleaner salesman? - MG From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 14:48:14 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:48:14 -0500 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: There's some questionable choices on there... The Sinclair entries... and the biggest of all... PS3? It's not even a proper computer. On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:31 PM +0200 4/9/13, MG wrote: > >> The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but the paupers >> didn't even mention /one/ SGI. How the hell is that possible? >> Even their saint Steve Jobs spoke well of SGI, very well actually. >> > > Who remembers SGI? When I wrote my previous email, even I forgot them. :-( > > The Octane, O2, and Tezro should all be on the list! :-) Maybe Sun's > SunBlade 1000 as well. > > Zane > > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +-----------------------------**-----+------------------------**----+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/**33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.**com | > > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 14:49:10 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 15:49:10 -0400 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <516470B6.9030905@sbcglobal.net> But to be fair, has Tony Smith (the author) seen any of the big toys we love? A better title, I'd say, would be one where he specified this was _his_ list... But I digress, picking nits. :) BeBox? I don't have a mental image. As for Macs (of all ages), the _only_ one I would choose would be the Cube. A Sun Ultra 1 may not be the sexiest, but I'd wager is up there. But lest we forget another sexy beast, the IBM z series mainframe. Not I'm not screwing around, with the other thread. I realy do like the looks of it: https://www.computerworld.com.au/slideshow/354082/pictures_ibm_new_system_z_mainframe/?image=5 On 04/09/2013 03:10 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Honestly, I'm really surprised by the list. I was surprised first by > the C-128, and even more surprised by the time I got to #10. I didn't > take time to see if they listed criteria for the choices, but I find the > machines selected to be odd. I for one would have put a BeBox in the > list (and I've never even seen one). I'd have likely also included the > G5 PowerMac (and current Mac Pro's) for their case. > > Zane > > > > > At 2:10 PM -0400 4/9/13, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & >> Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is >> barely on topic (Mac Cube). >> And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting >> read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No >> bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... >> If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) >> >> The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME >> Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_roundup/ >> -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 14:51:18 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 21:51:18 +0200 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51645FAA.30306@neurotica.com> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> <51645BFD.9010304@xs4all.nl> <51645FAA.30306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51647136.2010903@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 20:36, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/09/2013 02:20 PM, MG wrote: >> IBM is convinced that their mainframe, although at some point >> in the future virtually no one will have heard of it, will >> somehow remain desirable. (Invisible telepathic marketing, >> perhaps?) > > Is this another expression of being "critically interested"? How many have heard of "z" 'out there'? Let's say, how about in the now and present (that's the year 2013, just so you know) and all those below the age of 25? Or let's say below 45. How many have had the chance to use a "z" in the education mills? How many have had the chance to see, let alone use, a "z" on or at their job? How many people read about "z" in current computer publications? How many public forums are there about "z"? How many public remote access "z" systems are there? To just name (or actually, rehash) a few things. I'm sure you'd rather opt for the "yer a TROLL" name-calling once more, instead of answering. > No. To be WRONG, you should proceed to roughly equate "p" to > "z" in any way. LOL. - MG From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 15:00:02 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130409124332.D99301@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Jason McBrien wrote: > Remove the ZX81, whose keyboard disqualifies it from any list of best > anything. That's just a decorative PICTURE of a keyboard. Like "serving suggestion" on a box of cereal. It also provides some protection against scraping up the bottom of the door that it is used with. If you are going to do anything that involves input, then you would need to connect an actual keyboard. I once sold a ragged old disk pack at a computer swap. One that had seen a lot of use being passed around a classroom. My assistant stuck a Timex between the platters, and changed the sign to read "Mass storage for Sinclairs. Holds four." I don't know from "sexiest", but it was the funniest computer of its time. Perhaps one of the early Sonys, with their Italian case design? Or the original NeXt? Too bad that they didn't go through with shaping it like a human head. or foot. N* Horizon and Darth Vader's lunchbox were good one - people thought that they were homemade. I suppose that you would need to include something flat, with rounded corners, . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 9 15:00:53 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 16:00:53 -0400 Subject: System 36 SSP 5.25" Media In-Reply-To: <47173197-9F9F-4F6A-86B9-10781F2C8F7F@isallthat.com> References: <47173197-9F9F-4F6A-86B9-10781F2C8F7F@isallthat.com> Message-ID: <51647375.6020104@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2013 03:15 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > Every couple of years I throw this one out there. Would anyone have a > copy of the media for an IBM System/36 5363 -- that the second > version of the 5.25" distribution. I'd love to get my hands on a > copy if anyone has such a thing, either physically or as an image > set. I believe my local friend Eric might have this, as I'm pretty sure he has one of those machines. He's on this list, but is super busy. I will ping him privately to see. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 15:01:39 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 16:01:39 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > Remove the ZX81, whose keyboard disqualifies it from any list of best > anything. Best door wedge? -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 15:02:06 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130409130135.R99301@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Who remembers SGI? When I wrote my previous email, even I forgot them. :-( > The Octane, O2, and Tezro should all be on the list! :-) Maybe Sun's > SunBlade 1000 as well. Howzbout one of those ADM3 imitations that Apple put out? From lists at loomcom.com Tue Apr 9 15:05:50 2013 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 16:05:50 -0400 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME ? The Register In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20130409200550.GA21900@mail.loomcom.com> * On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 02:10:43PM -0400, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME [...] I don't think any two people on this list will have a list in agreement with each other, but here's mine. A lot of these are "sexy" for personal reasons (i.e. I really really really wanted one). The list will also show what an unabashed DEC fanboy I am. I make no apologies for that :) THIS LIST IS COMPLETELY UNORDERED! * SGI Indigo R4K Elan I lusted after one when they were announced, and I worked (all too briefly) for SGI just as they were being discontinued. So, of course I took one home from work. * DEC PDP-1 Sexy for its historical impact, and sexy because it was the first DEC computer. * NeXT Cube Similar lust appeal to the Indigo when they were new. I could never have dreamed of affording one until they were obsolete. * DEC PDP-8 (The original "Straight 8") The minicomputer that (arguably) started the minicomputer revolution. The smoked plastic card cage still gives me the chills (I'm easy) * Commodore Amiga 1000 I've never owned one, but my uncle did it had a huge impact on my life. I considedred it probably the sexiest computer in the world when it came out. * Symbolics 3620 LISP Machine It had lines. It had LISP. It had a keyboard with a triangle, a square, and a circle. That's pretty sexy! * DEC PDP-11/70 The ultimate minicomputer. Not really so mini, actually. * SPARCstation Voyager Really underappreciated, I think. Innovative. Cool. * DEC PDP-10 (in general, but specifically the console of the KI10) My favorite mainframe (ha, there's that word again!). OK, OK, debate about the mainframe moniker asside, sexy for historical reasons, and its profound impact on AI research. 36 Bits Forever. * Original 1984 Macintosh 128K I expect this is the the most controversial on my list. It didn't wow with features, but it marked an important shift in the market. We all know the story. -Seth From jws at jwsss.com Tue Apr 9 15:13:47 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 13:13:47 -0700 Subject: [N8VEM: 15818] XT-IDE V2 PCBs available In-Reply-To: References: <000301ce33b9$b70c8360$25258a20$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <5164767B.8030703@jwsss.com> On 4/8/2013 4:11 PM, ..I'd rather be coding ASM! wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > I'm interested in a couple please. Answering for Andrew, calculate the amount and send a paypal or order directly to andrew @ LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM He may or may not see this posting on cctalk for some time. Jim Hi! More XT-IDE V2 PCBs have arrived. They will cost the same as before ($12 each). However due to unforeseen extreme price increases in shipping by USPS I am forced to change shipping costs. Shipping in the US will be $3 for a single PCB and $2 for each additional PCB. Shipping internationally will be $10 for a single PCB and $3 for each additional PCB. This is for the bare basics USPS first class postage with no tracking or insurance. The builder assumes all risk of delivery as per usual arrangement. I apologize for the large price increase on shipping but this is out of my hands. The USPS is in dire financial trouble and is raising prices on shipping. It affects us all and is most unfortunate. These boards are provided "at cost" so there is no margin to absorb any shipping price increases. I have to pass them along. If you would like one or more XT-IDE V2 PCBs please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showwiki.php?title=XTIDE+Rev2 There are about 28 XT-IDE V2 PCBs left. At least 10 are committed at the moment. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 15:15:03 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 13:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_?= =?windows-1252?Q?ALL_TIME_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130409131238.B99301@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, MG wrote: > The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but, a model with no couch? THAT was sexy. Howzbout the "Workslate"? Epson RC-20? or even the HC-20 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 16:02:49 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:02:49 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51646E4F.2060906@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <51643573.2090803@sbcglobal.net> <51646E4F.2060906@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <516481F9.7040300@sbcglobal.net> On 04/09/2013 03:38 PM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 17:36, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> Because they can? They enjoy it. I believe that's the whole >> point of ClassiCMP, if I'm not mistaken... > > Did you miss the part where I said I run Tru64 UNIX myself? (And > the part, for that matter, that many --- over here, at least --- > are moving away from that platform. Or, actually, already moved > away.) Nope, I saw that. I only answered the question of why run EOL software? There was no other context/qualifiers in there. For businesses, correct, running unsupported hardware and software is a risk. For hobbyists like us, it's fun >>>> Dropping a quarter mil on a big server isn't usually done via >>>> ads in computer magazines. >>> >>> Are you now denying the existence of such ads? Also, I wouldn't >>> call (e.g.) an AlphaStation 200, Digital Personal WorkStation or >>> something else of (roughly) that proportion a "big server". >> >> Umm, "..isn't usually done..." does not equal denial. Notice the >> word "usually". > > It equaled none for me, because I never saw anything other than > those AlphaPC, AXPpci, etc. offerings (like I said at least twice > before). Maybe you should reread some posts? Nope. Read 'em all. Just because you didn't see any ads, doesn't mean they didn't exist. >> Well, depends upon the system. In this particular discussion, >> using a mainframe for SMB or home use is like hunting a squirrel >> witha gatling gun. > > What about getting any exposure to this platform at all? What > about allowing people to get acquainted with it? What about > allowing people the chance to port and develop software for > this platform? (See also the example I gave with VMS earlier.) That would fall more under hobbyist. >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I never read Dave saying he despised >> the "little people" (nor anyone else, really) that you refer to. > > Then you probably didn't read this thread very well. > > - MG -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 9 15:20:01 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:20:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: looking for Daisy Wheel Printer In-Reply-To: <1365481722.72487.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Apr 8, 13 09:28:42 pm Message-ID: > > I am looking for a daisy wheel printer to buy An odd thing to desire.... > > I know I need one with a parallel/ Centronics port > but what else should I get? There were quite a few models with RS232 interfaces (including some 'KSR@ models with keyboards, effectively printing terminals). I would suggest that if the model you want turns up with an RS232 prt ratehr than a Centronics port, you grab it and eitehr link it to a serial port on your host or get a parallel-serial converter. I suspect those are lot easier to find than a partivular model of daisywheel printer. The famous models were the Diablo 630 and the Qume Sprint 5. Both are prett soild. Watch out for older models, some of which had a strange parallel interface with many mroe than 8 data lines -- you got to specify the caracter, carriage movement, etc on separate lines. Interfacing one of those would be 'fun'. I would also avoid the HP9871 in your case, for all I want one. Not only does it haev a strange interface, it also has a strange mechansim with a long 'ladder type' drive belt whcih will certainly have failed. Replacements do not exist. If possible get some spare Daisywheels and ribbons. The formerare certainly not easy to get now, the latter may be getting rarer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 9 15:23:44 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:23:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9-track alignment (skew) tapes for R/W-head adjustment In-Reply-To: <1365492039.97770.YahooMailNeo@web133105.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> from "P Gebhardt" at Apr 9, 13 08:20:39 am Message-ID: > By the way, is anybody aware of schematics ever published by Fujitsu for th= > e hard drives or tape drives? They never seemed to be part of their manuals= > .=0A= Not applicaable to your problem, but somwhere I have the manual for a Fujitsu Eagle. It contains full schematics and block diagrams of the ASICs. I have a simialr manual for an 8" SMD drive, I think that may well be Fujitsu too, I would have to check. No idea about tape drives, but I can't see why they'd provide schematics for one and not the other. -tony From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 16:09:16 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 16:09:16 -0500 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: <51646E24.5030205@gmail.com> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <51646E24.5030205@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am reluctant to use the adjective sexy to describe a computer case, but in terms of attractive looking computer cases my list would be something like this (in no particular order): Apple Mac Cube BeBox Next Cube Amiga 3000 Desktop iMac G4 TI 99/4a Cray 2 Twentieth Anniversary Mac SGI Tezra Mindset Computer M1001 On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 2:38 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 4/9/2013 11:31 AM, MG wrote: > >> On 9-apr-2013 20:10, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> >>> Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & >>> Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely >>> on topic (Mac Cube). >>> And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting >>> read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No >>> bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... >>> If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) >>> >>> The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME >>> Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out >>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_** >>> computers_roundup/ >>> >> >> The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but the paupers >> didn't even mention /one/ SGI. How the hell is that possible? >> Even their saint Steve Jobs spoke well of SGI, very well actually. >> >> (Also, to hell with them and their multi-page layout. Are they so >> desperate to maximize their ad revenues that they have to resort >> to that?!) >> >> - MG >> > > I have to agree. It's a little more forgivable when you look at this being > a UK paper and they probably picked computers that were popular there. > I've never heard anyone call a Sinclair anything sexy. A paper in the US > would have a completely different list. To me the only one that really > belongs on that list is the NeXT. The Cray is nice but, such expensive > limited production stuff shouldn't really be considered. Otherwise it would > probably be impossible to pick ten. > From ats at offog.org Tue Apr 9 16:16:13 2013 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 22:16:13 +0100 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=A2?= The Register In-Reply-To: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> (Dave Woyciesjes's message of "Tue, 09 Apr 2013 14:10:43 -0400") References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Dave Woyciesjes writes: > But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? There are plenty of machines that I find more fun to play with, but I think the Oric Atmos is hands-down the nicest-looking computer I own. Here's mine, next to a Model M keyboard for scale: http://offog.org/stuff/atmos.jpg -- Adam Sampson From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 16:16:57 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:16:57 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_The_ten_SEXIEST_computers_of_ALL_TIME_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: <51646D88.6020105@sbcglobal.net> References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> <51646D88.6020105@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I'd go with (in no particular order): - NeXT Cube (w/ Megapixel B&W display) - GRiD Compass - HP 9100 But then I am a bit odd, and apparently I have a thing for magnesium-alloy :). - Josh On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 04/09/2013 02:31 PM, MG wrote: > >> On 9-apr-2013 20:10, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> >>> Yes, 2 of the computers listed are not on topic (MacBook Air & >>> Playstation 3, which is arguable if it's even a computer); one is barely >>> on topic (Mac Cube). >>> And there is only 1 big computer, the Cray 2. Still an interesting >>> read. But I'm curious as to what others should be on the list? No >>> bickering, we all know everyone has their own opinion... >>> If possible, please include a link to a pic for me to enjoy.... :) >>> >>> The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME >>> Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out >>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/**2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_** >>> computers_roundup/ >>> >>> >> The Cray is the only one I marginally agree with, but the paupers >> didn't even mention /one/ SGI. How the hell is that possible? >> Even their saint Steve Jobs spoke well of SGI, very well actually. >> > > Well, everyone has their own opinions, their own idea of what's > sexy. I asked for others suggestions, not bickering about what someone else > chose. > And yes, I do think SGI should have been represented. > > > (Also, to hell with them and their multi-page layout. Are they so >> desperate to maximize their ad revenues that they have to resort >> to that?!) >> >> > Maybe? I just think though that it;s easier to read that way, > instead of scrolling forever. > > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.**org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 9 16:20:07 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 14:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Apr 2013, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > There's some questionable choices on there... The Sinclair entries... and > the biggest of all... PS3? It's not even a proper computer. > It was until Sony robbed users of the "Other OS" option - a number of people ran Linux on them. I seem to recall the USAF running a big Beowulf cluster of PS3s running Linux, but my memory may be faulty. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 16:33:31 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 16:33:31 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Identifications_sought_=3A=AC=29?= In-Reply-To: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F643F60EE@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F643F60EE@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: Cynde, What was the significance of these systems to them in that original photo? Were they among the first Microsoft programmed systems? Were they just a random sampling of systems of the era? Just curious, they seem fairly random to me. - John On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Cynde Moya wrote: > I can tell you exactly what they are. > > Back row, L-R : Apple II (Serial no. A252-223242) with two Apple disk II > (Serial nos. 663608 and 1028507) and TMC S9 Picture Monitor (Serial no. > 1098) ; Intertec Superbrain (Serial no. 355129) [Replacing the original > photograph's Datapoint 8200]. > > Front row, L-R : Sanyo MBC-550 (Serial no. 18221141) with Panasonic RGB > monitor (Serial no. EC3430061) and keyboard (Serial no. 18221149) > [Replacing the original photograph's NEC PC-8001] ; Zenith Data Systems > Z-19 (Serial no. J128P106) ; Commodore Pet (Serial no. 0010850) ; and > TRS-80 I (Serial no. 355129) with monitor and expansion unit. > > Replacement computers are of similar form factor and also ran early > Microsoft software. > > Cynde Moya > Librarian/Archivist > Living Computer Museum > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Sam O'nella > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 1:51 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Identifications sought :?) > > I can only identify the easier ones. Likely a Zenith H-89 in the middle, > and I thought a TRS-80 Model I on the front right although the more I look > at that picture the less detail I can see. > > That front left one looks quite familiar though. Wish there was a bigger > picture out there. Love the remake though. > > > On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/04/gates_allen_reshoot_photo/ > > > > ? > > One of the most iconic photos from the history of Microsoft, featuring > > a lanky young Bill Gates perched next to his coding mentor (the way he > > tells it) Paul Allen, has been recreated at Seattle's Living Computing > > Museum. > > [...] > > Among the systems still surrounding them are an Apple II with twin > > drives and an ancient monitor in the top left of the picture, with a > > Commodore Pet below Bill Gates. Readers who can identify the other > > systems, please let us know in Comments. > > ? > > > > -- > > Liam Proven . Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk . GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com . Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 . Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 9 16:33:31 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:33:31 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51647136.2010903@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> <51645BFD.9010304@xs4all.nl> <51645FAA.30306@neurotica.com> <51647136.2010903@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5164892B.4000307@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2013 03:51 PM, MG wrote: >>> IBM is convinced that their mainframe, although at some point >>> in the future virtually no one will have heard of it, will >>> somehow remain desirable. (Invisible telepathic marketing, >>> perhaps?) >> >> Is this another expression of being "critically interested"? > > How many have heard of "z" 'out there'? Let's say, how about in > the now and present (that's the year 2013, just so you know) and > all those below the age of 25? Or let's say below 45. > > How many have had the chance to use a "z" in the education mills? > How many have had the chance to see, let alone use, a "z" on or > at their job? How many people read about "z" in current computer > publications? How many public forums are there about "z"? How > many public remote access "z" systems are there? To just name > (or actually, rehash) a few things. > > I'm sure you'd rather opt for the "yer a TROLL" name-calling > once more, instead of answering. No, here's an answer: WHO CARES? Not me, and not IBM. You surely do, though. Perhaps this is an emotional issue for you? >> No. To be WRONG, you should proceed to roughly equate "p" to >> "z" in any way. > > LOL. I fail to see why this is amusing. You know, them being DIFFERENT and all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 9 16:39:20 2013 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:39:20 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_f?= =?windows-1252?Q?acing_archiving_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51647136.2010903@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> <51645BFD.9010304@xs4all.nl> <51645FAA.30306@neurotica.com> <51647136.2010903@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51648A88.2090503@sbcglobal.net> On 04/09/2013 03:51 PM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 20:36, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 04/09/2013 02:20 PM, MG wrote: >>> IBM is convinced that their mainframe, although at some point >>> in the future virtually no one will have heard of it, will >>> somehow remain desirable. (Invisible telepathic marketing, >>> perhaps?) >> >> Is this another expression of being "critically interested"? > > How many have heard of "z" 'out there'? Let's say, how about in > the now and present (that's the year 2013, just so you know) and > all those below the age of 25? Or let's say below 45. Read a number of articles & what not about the z series over the course of the past year & more. And I'm 38, not sure how that is relevant, but you did ask in your survey. > How many have had the chance to use a "z" in the education mills? Not that I am aware of. I have, in my 12 years at the current job, used a terminal emulator to access an AS/400 system, but I have no idea what IBM system it's actually running on. > How many have had the chance to see, let alone use, a "z" on or > at their job? Nope. I would love to take a tour of the data centers here though. > How many people read about "z" in current computer > publications? Yes. > How many public forums are there about "z"? Don't know. Never looked. > How > many public remote access "z" systems are there? To just name > (or actually, rehash) a few things. Hmm, that's a fuzzy question. Is using an ATM that sends commands to a z series count as public access? Or do you mena using a terminal emulator to use it? > I'm sure you'd rather opt for the "yer a TROLL" name-calling > once more, instead of answering. Nah, past that. :) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Apr 9 16:40:05 2013 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 18:40:05 -0300 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time Message-ID: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> To complement the thread "The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register", we have > http://www.chassis-plans.com/blog/2013/04/04/the-worst-computers-of-all-time/ Any such list is necessarily very subjective, but I can think of lots of machines that were worse than the ones indicated here. And not all of them would be consumer computers either - just because you paid a lot for something didn't mean it would be good. Still, I liked the presentation. -- Jecel From colineby at isallthat.com Tue Apr 9 17:10:52 2013 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 23:10:52 +0100 Subject: System 36 SSP 5.25" Media In-Reply-To: <51647375.6020104@neurotica.com> References: <47173197-9F9F-4F6A-86B9-10781F2C8F7F@isallthat.com> <51647375.6020104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <8DD48080-4503-478B-B0AD-FF69B501A916@isallthat.com> Thanks very much indeed! On 9 Apr 2013, at 21:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 04/09/2013 03:15 PM, Colin Eby wrote: >> Every couple of years I throw this one out there. Would anyone have a >> copy of the media for an IBM System/36 5363 -- that the second >> version of the 5.25" distribution. I'd love to get my hands on a >> copy if anyone has such a thing, either physically or as an image >> set. > > I believe my local friend Eric might have this, as I'm pretty sure he > has one of those machines. He's on this list, but is super busy. I > will ping him privately to see. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 17:34:56 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 22:34:56 +0000 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: <516470B6.9030905@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: ------ Original Message ------ From: "Dave Woyciesjes" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: 09/04/2013 20:49:10 Subject: Re: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register > But to be fair, has Tony Smith (the author) seen any of the big toys >we love? A better title, I'd say, would be one where he specified this >was _his_ list... But I digress, picking nits. :) Well he does have a Cray, but ANY medium to large mainframe of the 1960's 70's or 80's is sexier than all the rest. Lets face it the front panel from a large 360 is sexier than most of those.... When the boxes with the support processor and no proper panel came out it was so disappointing. http://history.cs.ncl.ac.uk/anniversaries/40th/images/ibm360_672/slide20.jpg http://history.cs.ncl.ac.uk/anniversaries/40th/images/ibm360_672/26.jpg and too think as an Undergraduate I was allowed to sit in that chair and type into that console..... Dave G4UGM > BeBox? I don't have a mental image. As for Macs (of all ages), the >_only_ one I would choose would be the Cube. > A Sun Ultra 1 may not be the sexiest, but I'd wager is up there. >But lest we forget another sexy beast, the IBM z series mainframe. Not >I'm not screwing around, with the other thread. I realy do like the >looks of it: >https://www.computerworld.com.au/slideshow/354082/pictures_ibm_new_system_z_mainframe/?image=5 > >On 04/09/2013 03:10 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>>The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME >>>Gorgeous kit that looks as good now as it did the day it came out >>>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/09/feature_ten_sexy_computers_roundup/ >>> > > >-- --- Dave Woyciesjes >--- ICQ# 905818 >--- AIM - woyciesjes >--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ >--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > >"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." >"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 17:55:53 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:55:53 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <516481F9.7040300@sbcglobal.net> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <51643573.2090803@sbcglobal.net> <51646E4F.2060906@xs4all.nl> <516481F9.7040300@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <51649C79.6020307@xs4all.nl> On 9-apr-2013 23:02, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Just because you didn't see any ads, doesn't mean they didn't exist. How much good did that do for Alpha in the end? > That would fall more under hobbyist. With very palatable benefits, but I guess the /little people/ were also despised by DEC to some degree. Well, look where DEC is now. When will they learn? For man it's /a bit/ too late now. Mean- while, I'm called a "troll", but I'm probably more annoyed by the Googles and Microsofts of this world than many of you combined. Now we're entering the x86/ARM bi-polar world. So, where's IBM --- one of the last big players with alternatives --- to give them hell...? - MG From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 9 18:31:40 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 19:31:40 -0400 Subject: pdp-11/23 config In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5164A4DC.2030505@verizon.net> On 04/09/2013 12:08 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > allison wrote: > [RX02 or RX50] >>> Mass storage for my system is another area I need to spend more thought on, for now I was planning to stay with the RL drives I got with the case. >>> >> In the PDP11 world its easy to build a system that forgets portable IO. >> A reminder PDP-11 as not a PC and even a 256kb floppy is viable storage >> as RT11 fits on it. > I'm not sure what I'd need it for? There is no other system within walking distance that would understand the floppy format natively. > Any file I/O thus most likely will happen across the Internet (involving a PC anyway), so I hoped I'd be fine with the TU58 emulation software discussed below. I use the PC to make floppies (RX50, RX33 and RX23) and my S100 CP/M system will do RX01 transfers. But, I have multiple Qbus 11s and most all have floppies so portability between them is handy. (or a 50ft serial cable). > >>> RL packs were over 160$ new (...) >> cables, terminators and those annoying and scarce drive ID plugs. > Terminator: check. > ID plugs 0 and 1: check. > Cables: no check yet but inbound. > >> If anything the floppy is always a must on my systems as all my diags and >> base RT11 systems are on that media (RX01, RX02, RX50, RX33, RX23). > Are they also available in TU58 (file) format? Generally yes. TU58 file format is variable in that the device appears to the system as a blocked volume like disk (though slower). The transfer between the TU58 and its host is serial data and the host request block(s) N and not that much different than IDE or other intelligent disk system that uses a logial block numbering system. The tu58 does not know nor care what is in the 512 byte block. I've run CP/M from TU58. > >> A viable uVAX is more than 150mb, (more like 300-500 for V7), >> a loaded PDP11 is 30MB. Just difference is OS utilization. > So I guess it all boils down on what one wants to run on it. > I've got one functional RD53 in it right now, and a second one I hope to revive at some point in the future. Thats plenty of space for PDP-11 OSs. Likely the bad one has the stuck head problem easy to fix. just upen it up and unstick it. There are more detailed instruction out there. I'v edone it many times and forget the whole you need a clean room thing, My first salvage is near 25years old now. >> I would not covet a large drive unless you had the application that >> required it. > I thought that we here run large drives just for the kicks of it?! You can till you have to format or defrag it. I keep a stack of sub 1gb (from 50mb and up) SCSI drives for that reasonas well as a major heap of MFM drives (St412s 10mb, St225s 20mb and Quantum D540s 31mb). I just insert them and image copy to them as backup. >>> I do have a TQK(mumble) board already (which was originally also intended for the VSII), but no drive yet. >> Save it as loading diags from TK50 is both slow and painful assuming the system can boot a tK50 (not guaranteed). > ?? (not understanding the above). I should save the controller because the whole subsystem is bad? I meant save it for backups or other large data needs as running diags off it will be painfully slow. If its bad save it for parts, they are scarce, usually the controller is fine and the drive is borked. > [core] >> The older LSI11 systems had it if there was a call for non volatile >> memory, the cost was high. >> I happen to have 16KW of qbus core. Also core had a far slower cycle >> time than Ram of >> the day. Core that ran at 1.5us was fast where ram on the day was >> under 1us and dropping. > So thus probably not very prevalent and not easy to find nowadays. Ho hum. > I've also already found out that the memory board I'll be getting is 512k_Bytes_ (256kW) and does _not_ have BBU support. ?? BBU?? Unless you mean BBS7 (Io tends to use that). > [OS question] >> Start with RT11 as a base os and it will allow you to test and get comfortable at lower >> cost to learn. It will be transferable knowledge to RSTS or RSX, may help with getting Unix >> on the machine. > Agreed, sounds like a good starting point. > For Unix See PUPS, Pdp-11 Unix Preservation Society. http://minnie.tuhs.org/PUPS/ One last thing... Heat! Qbus 11s produce a bit of that. That means fans must all work, the location must not be dusty enough to load up the boards and local temperature not excessively hot. I fried a 11/23 board while working at the DEC Mill when they had an air conditioner fail for the office area, when the room hit 96 (36c), cpu went away, I had plenty of spares. So reliability and room temps are coupled. Qbus 11s are fairly tolerent of conditions but any you find are going to be old and may not like additional stress. Allison From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 9 18:37:11 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 01:37:11 +0200 Subject: Tru64 Software Products Library In-Reply-To: References: <50B67F1E.6000505@sydex.com> <20121128142027.U23212@shell.lmi.net> <20121128150633.S23212@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5164A627.1050800@xs4all.nl> On 29-nov-2012 13:14, Ola Hughson wrote: > 2012/11/29 Benjamin Huntsman : >> Any Alpha and/or Tru64 fans on the list? >> >> Anyone have a really recent Software Products Library (May 2010) set >> they'd like part with for some consideration, and/or, a really old set >> (jan 98, oct 97, or jul 97)? > > -> Also woul like to get original isc/s for tru64 ;) > (also, OpenVMS would be awesome.) I have one, boxed, HP OpenVMS Alpha V8.4 from July 2010. Interested? - MG From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 18:56:55 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 19:56:55 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Tech_is_the_biggest_problem_facing_archiv?= =?windows-1252?Q?ing_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <51647136.2010903@xs4all.nl> References: <515F1038.1040608@sbcglobal.net> <515F37BB.4060101@sbcglobal.net> <51603210.5090203@xs4all.nl> <51606874.2050407@xs4all.nl> <51606B45.6000908@neurotica.com> <51607A46.1030009@xs4all.nl> <51607D8B.5070805@neurotica.com> <5160884B.3020401@xs4all.nl> <5160A431.7050106@xs4all.nl> <5c264fea-806e-44a1-9f31-7a1fc5beb630@email.android.com> <516327B2.3090501@xs4all.nl> <51632A92.6080508@sbcglobal.net> <51633944.903@xs4all.nl> <51633D1D.6060901@sbcglobal.net> <516349C5.8020509@xs4all.nl> <5164299D.4090203@sbcglobal.net> <51643045.3030200@xs4all.nl> <20130409095648.E99301@shell.lmi.net> <51645014.2020304@gmail.com> <51645BFD.9010304@xs4all.nl> <51645FAA.30306@neurotica.com> <51647136.2010903@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <8E522232-E921-4F84-A65C-C06F60561693@gmail.com> On Apr 9, 2013, at 3:51 PM, MG wrote: > On 9-apr-2013 20:36, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 04/09/2013 02:20 PM, MG wrote: >>> IBM is convinced that their mainframe, although at some point >>> in the future virtually no one will have heard of it, will >>> somehow remain desirable. (Invisible telepathic marketing, >>> perhaps?) >> >> Is this another expression of being "critically interested"? > > How many have heard of "z" 'out there'? Let's say, how about in > the now and present (that's the year 2013, just so you know) and > all those below the age of 25? Or let's say below 45. I have. I originally ended up looking up its predecessor (S/390) when IBM started supporting S/390 Linux back in... the late '90s? Early 2000s? > How many have had the chance to use a "z" in the education mills? Nope. > How many have had the chance to see, let alone use, a "z" on or > at their job? No, but I don't work at a bank or a stock exchange. I once worked at a health insurance company that might have had one, but I certainly never had direct contact with it. > How many people read about "z" in current computer > publications? I don't read current computer publications. Blogs, yes, I've seen it mentioned (usually in conjunction with the software patent nonsense they've been pulling with Hercules). > How many public forums are there about "z"? I know there are public forums on zos.efglobe.com. It appears to be down at the moment, but I haven't seen any explanation of why. > How many public remote access "z" systems are there? Same place: zos.efglobe.com has a public-access system (running z/OS 1.6, which is a bit outdated). It's the only free one I've seen; any others are usually rentals of time on a system because the normal assumption is that you'll be using it for commercial purposes. My two cents (and PLEASE don't make this all emotionally-charged, because it isn't): The mainframe market has established customers (mainly banks) who will continue to buy IBM mainframes because the software that they've invested DECADES into still runs on modern IBM mainframes because IBM is heavily invested in backwards compatibility. They fund IBM's mainframe budget because mainframes are a low-volume, niche industry with high margins. They're analogous to supercomputers, except they trade raw number crunching ability for sophisticated high-bandwidth I/O systems that can support incredible sustained data rates; it's a feature set that no one except very large businesses tend to need. Those very large businesses will train entry-level programmers on their mainframes, so there's very little need for a presence in universities; additionally, the sales channels are essentially established through pedigree. If you have enough money and the requirement for high data throughput, IBM will cold call you. To use your analogy, it is actually a lot like a door-to-door vacuum salesman, except in this case, the salesman already knows you need a vacuum and is probably one of the only people in the world who can sell you the right one. And to address a previous point: yes, it is the same thing that the NonStop and VMS people say when they point out that they're used around the world in stock markets and banks. They're also all mostly correct; NonStop has about the same customer type as IBM does for its mainframes. VMS is maybe a step below that, but there are still a lot of organizations using it because they have a lot invested in VMS-based software (or because it's actually the best tool for their particular task and someone who specified the system actually knew something about VMS). Admittedly, that's basically three major cases of vendor lock- in, which I'm generally not a fan of because it leads to stagnation. Mainframes aren't any more dead than Formula One racing is, but it's understandable that you might think so. The same thing COULD be done with a giant cluster of x86 machines, but IBM has spent 50+ years making a single architecture with the total package of reliability, scalability and pedigree. It's simply an easier call for gigantic enterprise operations to buy a total package that has it all than try to, say, make Linux be fault-tolerant enough to run a whole international bank. Some banks do it, but plenty of others don't, and it doesn't take much to sustain an industry that runs on that much margin. - Dave From kfergason at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 19:00:03 2013 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 19:00:03 -0500 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > To complement the thread "The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The > Register", we have > >> http://www.chassis-plans.com/blog/2013/04/04/the-worst-computers-of-all-time/ > > Any such list is necessarily very subjective, but I can think of lots of > machines that were worse than the ones indicated here. And not all of > them would be consumer computers either - just because you paid a lot > for something didn't mean it would be good. > > Still, I liked the presentation. > > -- Jecel Worse is subjective as you say, but here is my example. TI 99/4a. Cliff Click gave up in disgust trying to program this thing. nuf said. Kelly From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 9 19:04:30 2013 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 17:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H780 power supply Message-ID: <1365552270.75693.YahooMailNeo@web141403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Started tearing into the 11/780 and pulled the 11/03 and the RX01 out to clean and test. Looks like the PS is bad in the 11/03. It powers on and the fans run because they are AC but I am getting sometimes 4.5 volts on the 5v line and 0 volts on the 12v. I have 34 volts coming out of the diode rectifier. I suspect switching transistors. Anyone have experience with these? Brian. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Apr 9 19:05:44 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 12:05:44 +1200 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Yes, as you say these lists are pretty shallow and highly subjective. The problem when people talk about "worst" what does that actually mean? Worst keyboard, worst computer to repair, worst reliability, worst supported, worst value for money...the list goes on. Terry (Tez) On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > To complement the thread "The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The > Register", we have > > > > http://www.chassis-plans.com/blog/2013/04/04/the-worst-computers-of-all-time/ > > Any such list is necessarily very subjective, but I can think of lots of > machines that were worse than the ones indicated here. And not all of > them would be consumer computers either - just because you paid a lot > for something didn't mean it would be good. > > Still, I liked the presentation. > > -- Jecel > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 9 19:10:09 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 20:10:09 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFRlY2ggaXMgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcHJvYmxlbSBmYWNpbmcgYXI=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y2hpdmluZyDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <51649C79.6020307@xs4all.nl> References: <51634D86.1060002@neurotica.com> <5163592C.9040706@xs4all.nl> <51635D8D.3010909@neurotica.com> <51636748.9040902@xs4all.nl> <51643573.2090803@sbcglobal.net> <51646E4F.2060906@xs4all.nl> <516481F9.7040300@sbcglobal.net> <51649C79.6020307@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5164ADE1.4060601@neurotica.com> On 04/09/2013 06:55 PM, MG wrote: > Mean-while, I'm called a "troll", You forgot "CLUELESS". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 9 19:33:35 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:33:35 -0700 Subject: The ten SEXIEST computers of ALL TIME * The Register In-Reply-To: References: <516459A3.1080609@sbcglobal.net> <51645E92.1000901@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5164B35F.7010106@sydex.com> Other than the obvious triteness of the the question--- What kind of warped pervert wants to have sex with a computer? --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 19:41:20 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 01:41:20 +0100 Subject: 10 worst computers of all time In-Reply-To: References: <201304092140.r39LeMdR019464@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 10 April 2013 01:00, Kelly Fergason wrote: > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Jecel Ass