From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 1 02:42:30 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 08:42:30 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9EBA73.19191.18C2A36@cclist.sydex.com> References: from "David Riley" at Apr 29, 12 09:58:34 pm, <4F9EBA73.19191.18C2A36@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F9F93E6.3070503@gmail.com> On 01/05/2012 00:14, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Apr 2012 at 21:42, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Tell me about it. I once ahd to recalibrate an oven thermostat after >> repariign it (it was a few days before Newtonsday, we needed the oven >> to cook the turkey, and the correct repalcement was totally >> unobtainable so I had to repair the old thermostat). I found that the >> on/off points were not even approximately repaatable.... I think I got >> it somehwat near and said 'try that'. Well, the food was edible... > Do electric ovens in the UK use the "Gas Mark" convention? It took > me a little research on how to translate GM/Regulo settings to > degrees F--basically it's 250F+GM*25. Fractional GMs are still a > little confusing. No degree Centigrade/Celsius , we are metric now... Aren't units fun. I once watched an English cookery program by Delia Smith in Canada, another Metric country. She dutifully read out all the measurements in imperial, Metric and where oven temperatures were concerned Gas Mark units, but of course for the US cooks there was also a sub-title card translating the quantities into "cups" however big those are.... .. mind you they al;so had a program on how to dress down in style... > --Chuck > Dave G4UGM From jws at jwsss.com Tue May 1 02:58:33 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 00:58:33 -0700 Subject: OT: cipher machine on Ebay Hagelin Message-ID: <4F9F97A9.2060301@jwsss.com> pricy, at $7,000, but for such a machine that is cheap. HAGELIN C-362 CIPHER MACHINE http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160783096486 May be a bit off the classic computing theme, however the deciphering equipment is classic cmp. thanks Jim From holm at freibergnet.de Tue May 1 03:39:11 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 10:39:11 +0200 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: References: <7CF76E1E-502B-4529-A3E0-CF494DD21C97@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120501083911.GA25358@beast.freibergnet.de> Tony Duell wrote: [..] > > I do wonder why modern domestic audio equipment doesn't have balanced > inputs nad outputs. Doing so would have added a lot of complexity when > using vavles,, but with op-amps it's trivial. And that would be a serious > way to reduce common-mode effects (like earth loops). > > But then I can;t expect Audiophools to understand engineering... > > -tony Hmm, since most Valve Amps that permit Power in the 20 Watts range and upwards are PP Amps, there must not much complexity added to have differential inputs, there are Phase Splitters that can use both variants. Only for SE and preamps some Input- and Output transformers must be added, and that are the expensive things this days... ...finally t simplifies to: who want's to pay a little more to get a better result? Look at that RCA Jack alone, it is really cheap and it is the source of many many Problems ... There are really better things out here. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 1 06:52:01 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 07:52:01 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 26, 2012, at 2:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I do wonder why modern domestic audio equipment doesn't have balanced > inputs nad outputs. Doing so would have added a lot of complexity when > using vavles,, but with op-amps it's trivial. And that would be a serious > way to reduce common-mode effects (like earth loops). > > But then I can;t expect Audiophools to understand engineering... Certainly the stuff i use for recording does. But yes, it is surprisingly uncommon, even in high-end equipment. I knew someone who built their own headphone amp which was fully differential all the way through until the output transistors. THAT was a quiet amp. Differential inputs are all well and good, but I've found that even with my setup, some GSM cell phones can introduce noise in the internals which gets propagated quite audibly (that biiiiiiiiiiip bip bip bip sound comes from the RF power amp switching on and off at the TDMA frequency and couples into audio amps quite well, I've found). - Dave From tsg at bonedaddy.net Tue May 1 07:48:10 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 08:48:10 -0400 Subject: House wiring [was Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia] In-Reply-To: <201204302333.TAA02974@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201204302333.TAA02974@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120501124810.GJ25367@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Mouse [120430 19:52]: > > Oer here, gas tuimble driers are _very_ uncommon. > > Come to think of it, I can't recall seeing one here either. I have two (one natural gas and one propane) and grew up with a propane (tumble) dryer as well. Todd From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 1 07:58:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 08:58:37 -0400 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9FDDFD.8050507@neurotica.com> On 05/01/2012 07:52 AM, David Riley wrote: > Differential inputs are all well and > good, but I've found that even with my setup, some GSM cell > phones can introduce noise in the internals which gets > propagated quite audibly (that biiiiiiiiiiip bip bip bip sound > comes from the RF power amp switching on and off at the TDMA > frequency and couples into audio amps quite well, I've found). Have you looked at the current waveform of a GSM modem while it's transmitting? Oh MAN...it's a wonder that problem isn't worse than it is! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue May 1 08:00:51 2012 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 13:00:51 +0000 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <1335813462.14310.YahooMailClassic@web184508.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513490D56@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1335813462.14310.YahooMailClassic@web184508.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051349214B@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Any idea what it may cost to ship this to the Chicago area? -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Rosenbloom Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 2:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: another HP2100 on govliquidation --- On Mon, 4/30/12, Bob Brown wrote: > From: Bob Brown > Subject: RE: another HP2100 on govliquidation > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > Date: Monday, April 30, 2012, 11:46 AM > So, is this auction for a potentially > viable 2100S or is there some reason that it wouldn't be a > good buy? > -Bob > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu > ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of > Operations > Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by > grace > The thing I noticed is the power cord is stored in the unit. Must be taking up quite a bit of space as it's a think, long cable. I'd be worried that some boards are missing, or if your lucky, it just has no I/O cards. Worst case, the cord is stored where the core memory was. Bob From tsg at bonedaddy.net Tue May 1 08:22:58 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 09:22:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9F4BE9.3070402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> <201205010000.UAA03418@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> <4F9F4BE9.3070402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20120501132258.GO25367@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * ben [120430 22:36]: > On 4/30/2012 8:23 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: > > > Fixed in the sense of fixed disk. As in, stuck in it's place by design. > > As opposed to a non-fixed disk, that can be removed from the drive > > assembly (usually in the form of a cartridge, like a floppy disk or an > > SD card.) > > > > Why even bother saying fixed? I have yet to see bathroom > items that say roll and still be connected to water and drain? > Ben. I was in a hotel in Italy once where you could pay extra to have a bath in your room. If you did, they rolled in a portable bath. Todd From shumaker at att.net Tue May 1 08:47:02 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 09:47:02 -0400 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051349214B@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513490D56@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1335813462.14310.YahooMailClassic@web184508.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051349214B@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <4F9FE956.6020205@att.net> On 5/1/2012 9:00 AM, Bob Brown wrote: > Any idea what it may cost to ship this to the Chicago area? > -Bob > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > -----Original Message----- > From:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Rosenbloom > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 2:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: another HP2100 on govliquidation > > > > --- On Mon, 4/30/12, Bob Brown wrote: > > >> From: Bob Brown >> Subject: RE: another HP2100 on govliquidation >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" >> Date: Monday, April 30, 2012, 11:46 AM >> So, is this auction for a potentially >> viable 2100S or is there some reason that it wouldn't be a >> good buy? >> -Bob >> >> bbrown at harpercollege.edu >> #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR >> Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of >> Operations >> Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by >> grace >> >> > The thing I noticed is the power cord is stored in the unit. Must be > taking up quite a bit of space as it's a think, long cable. I'd be > worried that some boards are missing, or if your lucky, it just > has no I/O cards. Worst case, the cord is stored where the core > memory was. > > Bob > > > > pkg weight was 140lb for the unit I obtained. prep and shipping from Columbus OH to Santa Cruz CA was ~$200 per unit. steve From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 1 08:54:45 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 14:54:45 +0100 Subject: "When the REAL history started" (Was: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <20120429115417.D91323@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120429100545.S91323@shell.lmi.net> <04E6BA96-38CD-474D-9A0D-B4AFF17C9118@gmail.com> <20120429115417.D91323@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 29 April 2012 19:59, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Tell John Titor that for ONE-WAY transport to 1962, I will get him a 5100 > with both APL AND BASIC ROMs. ? And start a bank account and stock > portfolio sufficient to fund his endeavors. [Roar] Can I come, please? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From holm at freibergnet.de Tue May 1 09:05:22 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 16:05:22 +0200 Subject: Pictures of an KDF11-BF?? Message-ID: <20120501140522.GC47694@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, I've got an BA23 Box with an M8190-AB lately (from Henk, special thanks to you!). The M8190-AB should be an KDJ11-BB 11/73 CPU. I have an MSV11-JE (M8637-E) PMI Memory Card too and I'm wondering if I can use them thogether.. As far as I've read it should be possible if I put the memory below the CPU, using it as plain Q-BUS memory this way. Can anyone confirm this? What will happen if I put the Memory board at top in the PMI Order? What are the differences from the KDJ11-BB to the KDJ11-BF? Are there pictures to look at somwhere on the net? All I have found for KDJ11-BF with google is exactly looking like my 11/73 CPU Board.... Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 1 09:35:49 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 10:35:49 -0400 Subject: Pictures of an KDF11-BF?? In-Reply-To: <20120501140522.GC47694@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120501140522.GC47694@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <85B28377-0539-4AB1-8D4C-10FB85A0D154@gmail.com> On May 1, 2012, at 10:05 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hi, > > I've got an BA23 Box with an M8190-AB lately (from Henk, special thanks to > you!). > The M8190-AB should be an KDJ11-BB 11/73 CPU. I have an MSV11-JE (M8637-E) > PMI Memory Card too and I'm wondering if I can use them thogether.. > As far as I've read it should be possible if I put the memory below the > CPU, using it as plain Q-BUS memory this way. Can anyone confirm this? > What will happen if I put the Memory board at top in the PMI Order? > What are the differences from the KDJ11-BB to the KDJ11-BF? Are there > pictures to look at somwhere on the net? All I have found for KDJ11-BF with > google is exactly looking like my 11/73 CPU Board.... Surely someone more knowledgeable than I will respond, but I recall that the primary difference (if indeed there were any others) between the KDF11-Bx boards was the boot ROM installed. I think the -BA may have had a slightly different set of components than the subsequent models (which were intended for the BA23 and had a nicer cable kit), but I may be misremembering that as well. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 1 09:39:37 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 10:39:37 -0400 Subject: Pictures of an KDF11-BF?? In-Reply-To: <85B28377-0539-4AB1-8D4C-10FB85A0D154@gmail.com> References: <20120501140522.GC47694@beast.freibergnet.de> <85B28377-0539-4AB1-8D4C-10FB85A0D154@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00E0263F-B009-4B5C-AD9F-7D914EAAB08F@gmail.com> On May 1, 2012, at 10:35 AM, David Riley wrote: > Surely someone more knowledgeable than I will respond, but I recall > that the primary difference (if indeed there were any others) between > the KDF11-Bx boards was the boot ROM installed. I think the -BA may > have had a slightly different set of components than the subsequent > models (which were intended for the BA23 and had a nicer cable kit), > but I may be misremembering that as well. ...all of which is to say the same likely applies to KDJ11 boards as well. - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 1 09:44:32 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 08:44:32 -0600 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <20120501083911.GA25358@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <7CF76E1E-502B-4529-A3E0-CF494DD21C97@gmail.com> <20120501083911.GA25358@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4F9FF6D0.8010508@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/1/2012 2:39 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hmm, since most Valve Amps that permit Power in the 20 Watts range and > upwards are PP Amps, there must not much complexity added to have > differential inputs, there are Phase Splitters that can use both > variants. Only for SE and preamps some Input- and Output transformers > must be added, and that are the expensive things this days... > > ...finally t simplifies to: who want's to pay a little more to get a > better result? This could have been done in the 1950's. They had the techonlogy then, just only high-end audio and commercial audio knew about it. A good audio system cost about the same as small car back then. > Look at that RCA Jack alone, it is really cheap and it is the source of > many many Problems ... There are really better things out here. The same could be said for the PC. > Regards, > > Holm From holm at freibergnet.de Tue May 1 09:53:49 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 16:53:49 +0200 Subject: Pictures of an KDF11-BF?? In-Reply-To: <85B28377-0539-4AB1-8D4C-10FB85A0D154@gmail.com> References: <20120501140522.GC47694@beast.freibergnet.de> <85B28377-0539-4AB1-8D4C-10FB85A0D154@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120501145349.GA52460@beast.freibergnet.de> David Riley wrote: > On May 1, 2012, at 10:05 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > I've got an BA23 Box with an M8190-AB lately (from Henk, special thanks to > > you!). > > The M8190-AB should be an KDJ11-BB 11/73 CPU. I have an MSV11-JE (M8637-E) > > PMI Memory Card too and I'm wondering if I can use them thogether.. > > As far as I've read it should be possible if I put the memory below the > > CPU, using it as plain Q-BUS memory this way. Can anyone confirm this? > > What will happen if I put the Memory board at top in the PMI Order? > > What are the differences from the KDJ11-BB to the KDJ11-BF? Are there > > pictures to look at somwhere on the net? All I have found for KDJ11-BF with > > google is exactly looking like my 11/73 CPU Board.... > > Surely someone more knowledgeable than I will respond, but I recall > that the primary difference (if indeed there were any others) between > the KDF11-Bx boards was the boot ROM installed. I think the -BA may > have had a slightly different set of components than the subsequent > models (which were intended for the BA23 and had a nicer cable kit), > but I may be misremembering that as well. > > > - Dave Hmm, on my Board are 2 ROMs Handlabeled to 395E5 and 396E5 KDJ11-B V9. The ROMs shouldn't be a problem if the rest of the Hardware can do PMI.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Tue May 1 09:55:32 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 16:55:32 +0200 Subject: Pictures of an KDF11-BF?? In-Reply-To: <00E0263F-B009-4B5C-AD9F-7D914EAAB08F@gmail.com> References: <20120501140522.GC47694@beast.freibergnet.de> <85B28377-0539-4AB1-8D4C-10FB85A0D154@gmail.com> <00E0263F-B009-4B5C-AD9F-7D914EAAB08F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120501145532.GB52460@beast.freibergnet.de> David Riley wrote: > On May 1, 2012, at 10:35 AM, David Riley wrote: > > > Surely someone more knowledgeable than I will respond, but I recall > > that the primary difference (if indeed there were any others) between > > the KDF11-Bx boards was the boot ROM installed. I think the -BA may > > have had a slightly different set of components than the subsequent > > models (which were intended for the BA23 and had a nicer cable kit), > > but I may be misremembering that as well. > > ...all of which is to say the same likely applies to KDJ11 boards as > well. > > > - Dave Hmm, my Mistake, I meant KDJ11-BF not KDF11..... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From technobug at comcast.net Tue May 1 10:23:48 2012 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 08:23:48 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1AD04AFD-57DE-4F3F-964F-D2B763342066@comcast.net> On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:19:44 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > CRC wrote: >> and also failed until he looked at the schematics for his unit and >> found yet another pin out for what appeared to be a 2716 equivalent. >> The PROMs in question are NEC2316 about which information is unobtainium. > > I think you're referring to the NEC ?PD2316E, which isn't a PROM. It's a > masked ROM. NEC's masked ROM business came from their acquisition of > Electronic Arrays, and the NEC ?PD2316E was originally the EA8316E, so > you can find data in either an EA databook, or an early NEC databook, > such as the 1982 NEC Catalog. Nope - It's a windowed, ceramic chip with the markings clearly NEC2316... ->CRC From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 1 10:26:47 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 09:26:47 -0600 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <402349B0-DD67-44D6-AC08-BE9386A54225@gmail.com> References: <201204301803.q3UI3Se715139062@floodgap.com>, <8B751A4F-FA82-4CD5-9C08-1C1A5890FE2D@gmail.com> <4F9E7874.11091.8A5EE9@cclist.sydex.com> <402349B0-DD67-44D6-AC08-BE9386A54225@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <402349B0-DD67-44D6-AC08-BE9386A54225 at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > Sure. To be clear, what I meant initially by "one way" is that USB > transfers occur when the host requests them [...] Thanks for that explanation, David. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 1 10:29:29 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 09:29:29 -0600 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9E946F.11542.F7ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201204301803.q3UI3Se715139062@floodgap.com>, <4F9E7874.11091.8A5EE9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9E946F.11542.F7ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4F9E946F.11542.F7ACF7 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Okay (although this could have been resolved with a simple lookup on > USB protocol). This implies that the USB protocol is simple and that looking it up is simple. Ever tried googling "USB" and trying to get some useful results? Skimming the wikipedia page didn't lead to enlightenment either. > The third term should be obvious. Should be, but since people were being euphamistic, it wasn't clear exactly what they meant. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From holm at freibergnet.de Tue May 1 10:38:02 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 17:38:02 +0200 Subject: Pictures of an KDF11-BF?? In-Reply-To: <20120501145349.GA52460@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120501140522.GC47694@beast.freibergnet.de> <85B28377-0539-4AB1-8D4C-10FB85A0D154@gmail.com> <20120501145349.GA52460@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120501153802.GC52460@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > David Riley wrote: > > > On May 1, 2012, at 10:05 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I've got an BA23 Box with an M8190-AB lately (from Henk, special thanks to > > > you!). > > > The M8190-AB should be an KDJ11-BB 11/73 CPU. I have an MSV11-JE (M8637-E) > > > PMI Memory Card too and I'm wondering if I can use them thogether.. > > > As far as I've read it should be possible if I put the memory below the > > > CPU, using it as plain Q-BUS memory this way. Can anyone confirm this? > > > What will happen if I put the Memory board at top in the PMI Order? > > > What are the differences from the KDJ11-BB to the KDJ11-BF? Are there > > > pictures to look at somwhere on the net? All I have found for KDJ11-BF with > > > google is exactly looking like my 11/73 CPU Board.... > > > > Surely someone more knowledgeable than I will respond, but I recall > > that the primary difference (if indeed there were any others) between > > the KDF11-Bx boards was the boot ROM installed. I think the -BA may > > have had a slightly different set of components than the subsequent > > models (which were intended for the BA23 and had a nicer cable kit), > > but I may be misremembering that as well. > > > > > > - Dave > > Hmm, on my Board are 2 ROMs Handlabeled to 395E5 and 396E5 KDJ11-B V9. > > The ROMs shouldn't be a problem if the rest of the Hardware can do PMI.. > > Regards, > > Holm > -- Hmm, it seems to work w/o Problems: Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test. Type a command then press the RETURN key: MAP 15.206 MHz CPU Options: FPA Memory Map Starting Ending Size in CSR CSR Bus Address address K Bytes address type type 00000000 - 07777776 2048 17772102 ECC PMI Press the RETURN key when ready to continue I don't have tried to boot something, the disk currently in the system is Quasiarus Unix for the VAX. I'll at least try to boot an RSX11 install tape.... Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test. Type a command then press the RETURN key: B MU0 Trying MU0 Starting system from MU0 RSX-11M/RSX-11M-PLUS Standalone Copy System V03 RSX-11M/RSX-11M-PLUS Standalone Configuration and Disk Sizing Program Valid switches are: /CSR=nnnnnn to change the default device CSR /VEC=nnn to change the default device vector /FOR=n to change the default magtape formatter number /DEV to list all default device CSR and vectors Enter first device: Ok, Since I dont want to install now, I'm stopping here. It seems really like that it is working. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Tue May 1 10:54:16 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 17:54:16 +0200 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <4F9E946F.11542.F7ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120501155416.GE52460@beast.freibergnet.de> Richard wrote: > > In article <4F9E946F.11542.F7ACF7 at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > > Okay (although this could have been resolved with a simple lookup on > > USB protocol). > > This implies that the USB protocol is simple and that looking it up is > simple. Ever tried googling "USB" and trying to get some useful > results? Skimming the wikipedia page didn't lead to enlightenment > either. > > > The third term should be obvious. > > Should be, but since people were being euphamistic, it wasn't clear > exactly what they meant. > -- ...simple or not, I for my self think that classic interfaces are better fit MY needs. I've finished to build an Programmer for CY7C291 and Am27C291 Chips yesterday and it has a simple AtMega644P CPU on it. This way I have enough RAM to buffer the ROM contents + some extra for the Program on the device. Could have build it with an FTDI in it, but what for? I can connect that device to old Computers I'm using, starting with some CP/M gear (mostly Robotron), an Zilog S8000 compatible System (EAW P8000) with some Zeus Unix Clone on it (WEGA) and even an PDP11 or a VAX. Some Terminal Emulator is sufficient to do useful work on it. Software is mostly the same (excluding the Program algorithms itself) to an previously build 2708 Programmer that I've build since almost none of the actual Programmers support them anymore. Next one is for 1702As. I don't need shiny gadgets with USB, most modern gear has JTAG/Flash anyway.. I have an Conitec GALEP3 to, it has a parallel port. Modern programmers from this companies can handle 3,3V Devices, have USB and a Linux running in them... who needs that? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 1 11:22:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 09:22:17 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9F93E6.3070503@gmail.com> References: , <4F9EBA73.19191.18C2A36@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F9F93E6.3070503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F9FAB49.19342.1FBBA8@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 May 2012 at 8:42, Dave Wade wrote: > Aren't units fun. I once watched an English cookery program by Delia > Smith in Canada, another Metric country. She dutifully read out all > the measurements in imperial, Metric and where oven temperatures were > concerned Gas Mark units, but of course for the US cooks there was > also a sub-title card translating the quantities into "cups" however > big those are.... .. mind you they al;so had a program on how to dress > down in style... It can get pretty confusing. Some measurements are volumentric (e.g. a cup of flour) where the other party uses measurement by mass (e.g. grams). How much does a cup of flour weigh? (Sifted, unsifted, whole wheat, rice flour....?). If you're a "cook by the book" type, you're in for much head- scratching. Fortunately, I'm not. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 1 11:23:32 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 09:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> <201205010000.UAA03418@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120501090934.X21316@shell.lmi.net> > >>> fixed bath or shower'. > >> Is a "fixed" bath or shower one that has been repaired? > >> Or, as with a "fixed disk", using the veterinary meaning? On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Kirn Gill wrote: > Fixed in the sense of fixed disk. As in, stuck in it's place by design. > As opposed to a non-fixed disk, that can be removed from the drive > assembly (usually in the form of a cartridge, like a floppy disk or an > SD card.) I was referencing something that I posted long ago. Why did IBM not call it a "HARD disk" as the rest of the industry had been doing? "Pel" V "pixel"? "System board" V "motherboard"? In a completely unofficial capacity (at a party at Comdex), an inebriated IBM booth staffer explained that "pixel" sounded too cutesy; "motherboard" had undesirable partial associations with black militants; and "hard disk" sounded like it would be hard to use. Somebody else said, "Well, I'm a veterinarian. Are you sure that you want it associated with OUR use of the term?" Since then, that has always come to mind whenever I hear the term. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 1 11:29:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 09:29:19 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <20120501155416.GE52460@beast.freibergnet.de> References: , , <20120501155416.GE52460@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4F9FACEF.19900.262B8B@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 May 2012 at 17:54, Holm Tiffe wrote: > ...simple or not, I for my self think that classic interfaces are > better fit MY needs. I've finished to build an Programmer for CY7C291 > and Am27C291 Chips yesterday and it has a simple AtMega644P CPU on it. > This way I have enough RAM to buffer the ROM contents + some extra for > the Program on the device. Could have build it with an FTDI in it, but > what for? I understand. Even when working with MCUs with native USB support built-in, I'll dedicate some pins to driving a MAX232 for RS-232 serial interface for debugging, even though it may be feeding a RS232- to-USB adapter. It's just that 232 is simple and less prone to coding errors. I suppose that I could go to USB using one of the FTDI, but it's really a wash. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 1 11:29:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 09:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <41BF0B94-800C-4E24-A79E-49216D09A6CB@gmail.com> References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> <201205010000.UAA03418@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> <41BF0B94-800C-4E24-A79E-49216D09A6CB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120501092518.W21316@shell.lmi.net> > > I haven't been paying attention, but is English his first langauge? As opposed to what? British?? On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, David Riley wrote: > Yes. Some of us aren't perfect typists, but it's not really important. > You can still read it, no? Usually. I may point out ones that are truly FUNNY, but I don't ridicule typos, for fear that somebody will notice how many I make. But, I needed help deciphering > >>>> What hewaters are From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 1 11:42:01 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 09:42:01 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120501090934.X21316@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com>, <20120501090934.X21316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F9FAFE9.4402.31C9C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 May 2012 at 9:23, Fred Cisin wrote: > I was referencing something that I posted long ago. > Why did IBM not call it a "HARD disk" as the rest of the industry had > been doing? > > "Pel" V "pixel"? > > "System board" V "motherboard"? We always called it RMS for "rotating mass storage" (to differentiate it from tape). I suppose IBM called the same thing "DASD". That name never stuck. --Chuck From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue May 1 11:55:01 2012 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 16:55:01 +0000 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <4F9FE956.6020205@att.net> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513490D56@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1335813462.14310.YahooMailClassic@web184508.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051349214B@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <4F9FE956.6020205@att.net> Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A05134928F0@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Which shipping company did you use? Were you happy with it? -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 8:47 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: another HP2100 on govliquidation On 5/1/2012 9:00 AM, Bob Brown wrote: > Any idea what it may cost to ship this to the Chicago area? > -Bob > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > -----Original Message----- > From:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Rosenbloom > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 2:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: another HP2100 on govliquidation > > > > --- On Mon, 4/30/12, Bob Brown wrote: > > >> From: Bob Brown >> Subject: RE: another HP2100 on govliquidation >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" >> Date: Monday, April 30, 2012, 11:46 AM >> So, is this auction for a potentially >> viable 2100S or is there some reason that it wouldn't be a >> good buy? >> -Bob >> >> bbrown at harpercollege.edu >> #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR >> Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of >> Operations >> Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by >> grace >> >> > The thing I noticed is the power cord is stored in the unit. Must be > taking up quite a bit of space as it's a think, long cable. I'd be > worried that some boards are missing, or if your lucky, it just > has no I/O cards. Worst case, the cord is stored where the core > memory was. > > Bob > > > > pkg weight was 140lb for the unit I obtained. prep and shipping from Columbus OH to Santa Cruz CA was ~$200 per unit. steve From holm at freibergnet.de Tue May 1 12:11:15 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 19:11:15 +0200 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9FACEF.19900.262B8B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120501155416.GE52460@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F9FACEF.19900.262B8B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120501171115.GA61137@beast.freibergnet.de> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 May 2012 at 17:54, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > ...simple or not, I for my self think that classic interfaces are > > better fit MY needs. I've finished to build an Programmer for CY7C291 > > and Am27C291 Chips yesterday and it has a simple AtMega644P CPU on it. > > This way I have enough RAM to buffer the ROM contents + some extra for > > the Program on the device. Could have build it with an FTDI in it, but > > what for? > > I understand. Even when working with MCUs with native USB support > built-in, I'll dedicate some pins to driving a MAX232 for RS-232 > serial interface for debugging, even though it may be feeding a RS232- > to-USB adapter. It's just that 232 is simple and less prone to > coding errors. I suppose that I could go to USB using one of the > FTDI, but it's really a wash. > > --Chuck Not only that, I think there are some opensource libs that make an USB device out of a plain Atmega w/o some hardware USB Support like on chip devices or FTDI and I have 90% of the flash ROM left over free. (It's because of Atmels politics to not making Devices with enough RAM in them, you get more Flash than you need and only 4 Kbytes of RAM) I'm simply don't need USB in that class of Hardware. But there is another Problem raising in the meantime, I should change the Motherboard from my PeeCee this year I think. There are some Capacitors on the Voltage converters blowing up AGAIN and performance wise it isn't that good anymore altough it is running with FreeBSD 365 day/year. I have to buy somehing next time that don't has the features I want. (Have an PCI COM Card additionally to the onbord COM ports in there already). But this changes nothing about that what I think cwabout the Promer interface. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From shumaker at att.net Tue May 1 12:12:32 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 13:12:32 -0400 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A05134928F0@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513490D56@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1335813462.14310.YahooMailClassic@web184508.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051349214B@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <4F9FE956.6020205@att.net> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A05134928F0@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <4FA01980.8010209@att.net> On 5/1/2012 12:55 PM, Bob Brown wrote: > Which shipping company did you use? Were you happy with it? > -Bob > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 8:47 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: another HP2100 on govliquidation > > On 5/1/2012 9:00 AM, Bob Brown wrote: > >> Any idea what it may cost to ship this to the Chicago area? >> -Bob >> >> bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR >> Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations >> Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Rosenbloom >> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 2:18 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: RE: another HP2100 on govliquidation >> >> >> >> --- On Mon, 4/30/12, Bob Brown wrote: >> >> >> >>> From: Bob Brown >>> Subject: RE: another HP2100 on govliquidation >>> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" >>> Date: Monday, April 30, 2012, 11:46 AM >>> So, is this auction for a potentially >>> viable 2100S or is there some reason that it wouldn't be a >>> good buy? >>> -Bob >>> >>> bbrown at harpercollege.edu >>> #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR >>> Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of >>> Operations >>> Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by >>> grace >>> >>> >>> >> The thing I noticed is the power cord is stored in the unit. Must be >> taking up quite a bit of space as it's a think, long cable. I'd be >> worried that some boards are missing, or if your lucky, it just >> has no I/O cards. Worst case, the cord is stored where the core >> memory was. >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> > pkg weight was 140lb for the unit I obtained. prep and shipping from > Columbus OH to Santa Cruz CA was ~$200 per unit. > > steve > > > I used Fast Track Logistics - quite satisfied with the service. steve From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 1 12:13:38 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 13:13:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120501090934.X21316@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> <201205010000.UAA03418@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> <20120501090934.X21316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FA019C2.6030206@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > "System board" V "motherboard"? Or even "Planar". Peace... Sridhar From peter at rittwage.com Tue May 1 12:43:30 2012 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 13:43:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: Apple Keyboard Encoder MM5740AA/E Message-ID: <52999.10.2.0.194.1335894210.squirrel@rittwage.com> Hi guys, I apologize if this isn't the place for this... These come up on eBay every so often, but they are untested or I miss them. Does anyone have any spares of this old chip? I've got an old Apple II that I'd like to use the regular keyboard instead of a PS/2 adapter. I purchased some of the "C" variant (MM5740AA/C) some time back, but they have a different key mapping than the Apple computers. If someone needs those I can post for free or trade. I have no idea what keyboard they were used in. - Pete Rittwage Augusta, GA, USA From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue May 1 13:40:38 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 14:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4FA019C2.6030206@gmail.com> References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> <201205010000.UAA03418@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> <20120501090934.X21316@shell.lmi.net> <4FA019C2.6030206@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 May 2012, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> "System board" V "motherboard"? > > Or even "Planar". Yup. As a member of the Big Blue tribe, "planar" is the term I'm used to. -- From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue May 1 13:45:57 2012 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 18:45:57 +0000 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <4F9FE956.6020205@att.net> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513490D56@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1335813462.14310.YahooMailClassic@web184508.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051349214B@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <4F9FE956.6020205@att.net> Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513492C8F@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Was yours similar to the one currently for sale? Was it as clean as the pictures show? Did yours include the core and all the boards? -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 8:47 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: another HP2100 on govliquidation On 5/1/2012 9:00 AM, Bob Brown wrote: > Any idea what it may cost to ship this to the Chicago area? > -Bob > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > -----Original Message----- > From:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Rosenbloom > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 2:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: another HP2100 on govliquidation > > > > --- On Mon, 4/30/12, Bob Brown wrote: > > >> From: Bob Brown >> Subject: RE: another HP2100 on govliquidation >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" >> Date: Monday, April 30, 2012, 11:46 AM >> So, is this auction for a potentially >> viable 2100S or is there some reason that it wouldn't be a >> good buy? >> -Bob >> >> bbrown at harpercollege.edu >> #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR >> Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of >> Operations >> Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by >> grace >> >> > The thing I noticed is the power cord is stored in the unit. Must be > taking up quite a bit of space as it's a think, long cable. I'd be > worried that some boards are missing, or if your lucky, it just > has no I/O cards. Worst case, the cord is stored where the core > memory was. > > Bob > > > > pkg weight was 140lb for the unit I obtained. prep and shipping from Columbus OH to Santa Cruz CA was ~$200 per unit. steve From jchausler at earthlink.net Tue May 1 12:38:15 2012 From: jchausler at earthlink.net (J. Chris Hausler) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 13:38:15 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Gone extinct Message-ID: <15410248.1335893895797.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> No software for a 6809??? What about FLEX and UniFLEX from TSC for an OS and Stylograph for a word processor not to mention Dynacalc for a spreadsheed and numerous BASIC's, editors, assemblers, disassemblers, diagnostic tools, etc. I still have a 6809 system which runs FLEX with both Stylograph and Dynacalc and many other things running with two 8 inch and two 5 1/4 inch floppies just fine... 73, Chris Hausler >> Home computing never took off until the software industry exploded. >> There are tons of computer models like the ADAM and my Timex 2068 that >> never went anywhere because there was little software available for the >> masses. Plenty of people had computers before the 80's, they just tended >> to write their own software as needed. > >I tend to think the lack of floppy disk with a real OS , killed the 8 >bitters >out there. I was just looking at some old mags from the 80's,PC DOS and >CP/M was it for general purpose OS's. I wanted to get a 6809 machine >back then, but I could not find software to with the hardware. >Ben. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 1 13:52:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 19:52:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9E946F.11542.F7ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 30, 12 01:32:31 pm Message-ID: > "Asymmetric" refers to adherence to a master-slave topology; a member > on the bus is either a controller or a slave. What ties this with > "polled nature" is that there is no way for a slave to initiate a > transfer--all conversations are initiated by the controller. In > other words, conversation between slave and controller is "speak only > when spoken to". Thus, to determine the status of an operation, the > host must periodically poll the slave asking "Is it soup yet?". Is there no equivalent of a 'service request' in USB? (I;ve not read the stnadard seriously)? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 1 14:20:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 20:20:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 30, 12 03:47:39 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > What hewaters are nearly always hardwired over here too > > WHAT is hardwired? Ouch!. I meant 'Water heaters are nearly always hardwired'.... I could claim a cosmic ray hit my brain. Actually, it probably _was_ a muon, but not that sort. The furry ginger sort that catches mice [1]... [1] One of my cats is named 'Muon'. Explanation on request. > > > > Now, a shower heater is an instantaneous water heater used to heat the > > water for a shower bath. They would almost always be hard wired, the > > regualtions prohibit any socket outlets in a 'room containing a fixed > > bath or shower'. > > Is a "fixed" bath or shower one that has been repaired? > Or, as with a "fixed disk", using the veterinary meaning? Fixed as in 'fixed disk' ;-). The means is a bath or shower that's fixed ot the house, conencted to pipes, etc. As opposed to a metal tub that you keep hanging o nthe back of the door and put on the floor and fill with water. No, we don't still use that sort of bath over here, but the regulations had to be woreded to give an unambiguous defintuion of a 'bathroom'. > > Here, some areas require that new construction have a GFCI in kitchen and > bath. But non-GFCI, and even ungrounded, outlets abound, and RDCs are requried for a lot of new installations over here too (I would have to check the exact requirements). > ABSOLUTELY EVERY bathroom has outlets. I did forget something last night. There is a socket outlet that's allowed in a bathroom. That is a shaver socket (for electric razors) with a double-wound isolating transformer. > However, to protect the citizenry, hair dryers carry a warning label to > not use them in the water. I think i read somewhere that some hair dryers in the states have a RCD (GIF) in an oversized mains plug. > > (Our "nanny state" is into "warning labels". You can buy a roll of duct > tape, and it may have a warning to wear safety goggles; automotive > cruise control warns to continue to steer, . . . .) And yet, if you > think about it, every single warning label probably arises from a > specific incident. Some of which are difficult to comprehend - wouldn't > it be a bit FUTILE to try to dry your hair underwater? There was a recent incident over here that springs to mind... There was/is a threatended strick by petrol delivery tanker drivers, so the government suggested people should keep a can of petrol i nthe garage. Somebody was burned when pouring petrol from such a can into a jug in a kitech with a lighted gas cooker in it. And certain people then statted blaming the governemtn for giving fangerous advice. Firstly, the government did not jsugest pouring said fuel into jug in a kitchen. And secondly (and more inmportantly IMHO) anyone who doesn't realises that pourign petorl (gasoline) in a room containing a naked flame is a very bad idea deserves all they get. Petrol is flammable. That's why it's used as a car fuel. If you don;t know that, well... One thing I bought that did not come with stupid warnings was the Myford lathe. OK, it does tell you to read and understnad the manual before usign the machine, but that's reasoanble. They don;t tell you not to stick you fingers i nthe running drive belts, or not to try using it underwater, or anything like that. > > > > call them something other than stoves - `hotplate' is the word that > > > comes to mind, though IMO that usage is a bit of a misnomer. > > Here, a "hotplate' tends to mean a casually portable stove burner, such as > what one might smuggle in to use in a dorm room. The most ocmmon meaning of 'hotplate' to me is a piece of laboratory equiment, an electric heater for heating a beaker or flask of chemicals. I t is the common term for an infdvidual heating thingy on a cooker hob, although I suspect many people wouldn't use the term, 'Cooker ring' is another common term. 'Burner' is only used for gas cookers. I am not sure what we'd call the single or twin hotplate units of the type you decribe. Probably 'hotplates' :-). They certainly exist over here (and for reference, they just plug into a normal 13A socket outlet). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 1 14:23:22 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 20:23:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9EBA73.19191.18C2A36@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 30, 12 04:14:43 pm Message-ID: > > On 30 Apr 2012 at 21:42, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Tell me about it. I once ahd to recalibrate an oven thermostat after > > repariign it (it was a few days before Newtonsday, we needed the oven > > to cook the turkey, and the correct repalcement was totally > > unobtainable so I had to repair the old thermostat). I found that the > > on/off points were not even approximately repaatable.... I think I got > > it somehwat near and said 'try that'. Well, the food was edible... > > Do electric ovens in the UK use the "Gas Mark" convention? It took No. Gas ovens do, but electric ovens are calibtated in a temperature scale. Degrees Fahrenheit on older units, celsius (centigrade) on more recent ones. For the sort of tempeatures involved, and the accuracy/repeatability of the thermostats, a simple multiplication or divsion by 2 is good enough to covert one to the other :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 1 13:58:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 19:58:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: from "Glen Slick" at Apr 30, 12 01:34:17 pm Message-ID: > It is asymmetric in that you can only connect a host to a device. You can't > connect two hosts together without a device in the middle, nor can you > connect two devices together. > > For most common host and device usage scenarios these aren't real > restrictions. Actually, this is the main reason I destest USB (OK, it's over-complicated for the sort of things I do which is bad enough, but the restrictions on what you cvan connect togetehr are even worse). it strikes me that one of the main moans about RS232 was that there were straight cables and null-modem cables and this confused people. If it had been agereed that all 'hosts' -- that is computers -- would be wired as DTEs, and all 'slaves' -- modems, printers, etc -- would be wired as DCEs, there would bne no problem. The problem arrose because you could link 'hosts' (computers) directly togther with RS232. USB seems to avoid this my simply making it impossible to direclty link 2 hosts. I ds not see that as an improvement!. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 1 14:29:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 20:29:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: House wiring [was Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia] In-Reply-To: <201204302333.TAA02974@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Apr 30, 12 07:33:59 pm Message-ID: > > > Now, a shower heater is an instantaneous water heater used to heat > > the water for a shower bath. They would almost always be hard wired, > > the regualtions prohibit any socket outlets in a 'room containing a > > fixed bath or shower'. > > Ours don't go that far. We frequently have shaver outlets in ours. > Historically they were two-prong outlets with 1:1 ("isolation") > transformers between them and the mains feed, the idea being that it's As I said in another message, thost are permitted in bathrooms over here too. Typically, the transformer we use is a 1:1 isolator with a central tap on the secodnary. There are 2 socket on the wall plate, one for 230V, the otehr for 115V (quite why I do not know, all electric shavers sold over here are designed for 230V mains). I bought a load of these units when local 'pound shop' (=='dolalr store') was selling them. What i wanted were the transformers, of course. They're nice little 20VA (or so) units, ideal for powering small valve circuits, etc. And the price was certainly right! > impossible to get a jolt between either pole and ground. These days > such outlets usually use GFIs instead - I don't quite understand why, > but electric code has often made little sense to me. (Replacing a > comparatively simple (and thus reliable) and certain device with a > complex device which doesn't even do the whole job strikes me as a net > lose. Perhaps it was kickbacks from - er, lobbying by - GFI makers.) I don;t think RCD (GFI) prtoection is enoguh for bathrooms over here, but it might be now. But personally, I'd stick with a double-wound transformer. I do not trust RVDs not to fail (in fact I have had one do so, fortuantely I detected it using the test facility, rather than having a dangerous shock). > I've also seen small hotplates - usually two-burner ones - as portable > units, set up (and presumably designed) for plugging into an ordinary > mains outlet, here meaning the 15V 110-120V sort that are usual here. > Yes, single and twin untis like tht exsit over here. And they just plug in. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 1 14:02:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 20:02:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9F0CD1.2020907@gmail.com> from "Dave Wade" at Apr 30, 12 11:06:09 pm Message-ID: > I am collecting bits to build a 6809 machine and I wanted some EPROMS > for the monitor. I found I found 4 x NECD2716Ds which I am sure these > will do fine for that. I and also I think they can be programmed in a > Willem. Given that uyou only need an 8 bit databus on a 6809 system, is there a goodreson not to use a 27(C)64 for the monitor? Point being that those ave very easy to get, every programemr will supprot them and it's only one 28 pin chip to wire up. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 1 14:40:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 20:40:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9F93E6.3070503@gmail.com> from "Dave Wade" at May 1, 12 08:42:30 am Message-ID: > a sub-title card translating the quantities into "cups" however big > those are.... If my trusty HP48 is to be believed... 1 cup = 16 tablespoons = 48 teaspoons = .237 litres (or just under 1/4 litre) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 1 14:44:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 20:44:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <20120501083911.GA25358@beast.freibergnet.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at May 1, 12 10:39:11 am Message-ID: > Hmm, since most Valve Amps that permit Power in the 20 Watts range and > upwards are PP Amps, there must not much complexity added to have > differential inputs, there are Phase Splitters that can use both > variants. Only for SE and preamps some Input- and Output transformers > must be added, and that are the expensive things this days... Yes... > > ...finally t simplifies to: who want's to pay a little more to get a > better result? Well, I'd rather pay more for some good enegineering, like differential inputs and outputs (which will reduce common-mode noise signals for good engieerign reasons that I can understand) that pay for good-lated fuses, carpet groudnign clips, special mains cables, etc that have no science or engineering behind them. > > Look at that RCA Jack alone, it is really cheap and it is the source of > many many Problems ... There are really better things out here. XLRs spring to mind... Mind you, I find the audio DIN plug to be worse than the RCA phono.... To be fair, both are sueable if you get decent-quality ones (gold plated constacts, metal bodies, etc) Both are horrible if you get cheap ones. And you can guess what most manufacturers use. -tony From dm561 at torfree.net Tue May 1 15:38:49 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 16:38:49 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers References: Message-ID: <9C90C9446F354F6C9D8624E836679B84@vl420mt> ----- Original Message: Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:46:30 -0400 From: Keith Monahan To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers > I want something that connects to my computer like all my other devices. > Something that does not require anything special. > A USB eeprom burner that I can use on any of my current desktop/laptop > computers is what I want. ---- Well, by golly, then that's what you should get; lots of them out there! I generally find that when I have a round hole it's easier to find a round peg instead of complaining about the corners on the square ones ;-) I actually find an RS-232 serial interface the most flexible in terms of machines I can connect it to, including through a USB <> serial adapter if necessary. I take it that "*all* your other devices" must be less than 15 years old then, so what brings you to the Classic Computer List? ;-) Ironic that folks on the "Classic" computer list don't even have a machine with a serial or parallel port; I built programmers for both my PET and my AIM65, not much more than a connector and a socket since like many classics there were lots of available I/O pins, but from this discussion about programmers it seems that actually _using_ a classic computer for something useful isn't very common... m From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 1 15:57:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 13:57:09 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <4F9E946F.11542.F7ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 30, 12 01:32:31 pm, Message-ID: <4F9FEBB5.18016.11B6149@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 May 2012 at 19:52, Tony Duell wrote: > Is there no equivalent of a 'service request' in USB? (I;ve not read > the stnadard seriously)? Not as far as I've read the standard. "Speak only when spoken to" appears to be the rule at least in 1.x and 2.x. USB OTG is a little different in that some devices can assume either the guise of a controller or a slave, but one still can't have multiple controllers in a USB topology as far I know--which may well be dated by now.. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 1 15:58:19 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 16:58:19 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9FACEF.19900.262B8B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20120501155416.GE52460@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F9FACEF.19900.262B8B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On May 1, 2012, at 12:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 May 2012 at 17:54, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> ...simple or not, I for my self think that classic interfaces are >> better fit MY needs. I've finished to build an Programmer for CY7C291 >> and Am27C291 Chips yesterday and it has a simple AtMega644P CPU on it. >> This way I have enough RAM to buffer the ROM contents + some extra for >> the Program on the device. Could have build it with an FTDI in it, but >> what for? > > I understand. Even when working with MCUs with native USB support > built-in, I'll dedicate some pins to driving a MAX232 for RS-232 > serial interface for debugging, even though it may be feeding a RS232- > to-USB adapter. It's just that 232 is simple and less prone to > coding errors. I suppose that I could go to USB using one of the > FTDI, but it's really a wash. The one huge advantage (depending on your point of view) of using the FTDI devices is that the Windows drivers for them are fairly widely installed on users' machines. On EVERY OTHER OS out there (in common use by the Unwashed Masses, blah blah), you can just grab hold of a USB device in userland with libusb, but on Windows, you still have to install a "driver" for it, even if it's just a .inf file that says, "hey, this is a userland-controlled device, just hand it over to WinUSB" (which libusb can then use). I get pissed off when I have to write .inf files, and users get pissed off when they have to install drivers for a device just to use it with one application. So yeah, I use an FT232 or equivalent a lot of time unless the raw speed of native USB communication is required. I don't intend to turn this into another anti-MS flamefest, so hold off on that. This is just mind-bogglingly annoying. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 1 15:59:55 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 16:59:55 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7D042F9A-A692-4463-9D0F-FB348C47579D@gmail.com> On May 1, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> "Asymmetric" refers to adherence to a master-slave topology; a member >> on the bus is either a controller or a slave. What ties this with >> "polled nature" is that there is no way for a slave to initiate a >> transfer--all conversations are initiated by the controller. In >> other words, conversation between slave and controller is "speak only >> when spoken to". Thus, to determine the status of an operation, the >> host must periodically poll the slave asking "Is it soup yet?". > > Is there no equivalent of a 'service request' in USB? (I;ve not read the > stnadard seriously)? I suppose it depends on what you mean. The USB host is constantly polling the devices; when the devices have a message for the host, it gets sent then. There's no out-of-band signaling like an IRQ, if that's what you mean. Devices just have to wait their turn. It's like Token Ring in a lot of ways. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 1 16:02:35 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 17:02:35 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 1, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > it strikes me that one of the main moans about RS232 was that there were > straight cables and null-modem cables and this confused people. If it had > been agereed that all 'hosts' -- that is computers -- would be wired as > DTEs, and all 'slaves' -- modems, printers, etc -- would be wired as > DCEs, there would bne no problem. The problem arrose because you could > link 'hosts' (computers) directly togther with RS232. USB seems to avoid > this my simply making it impossible to direclty link 2 hosts. I ds not > see that as an improvement!. I doubt that was why they did it, though. I'm sure it had much more to do with simplifying device electronics so they could be implemented on very cheap microcontrollers at low power consumption, rather than anything to do with the direction; after all, it's half-duplex anyway. There's only one pair, and it goes both ways. Bear in mind that Ethernet has the same issues (we just call "null modem" cables "crossover" cables instead), and people got similarly confused. These days, though, most PHYs are smart enough to auto- detect when they need to switch the Rx/Tx pairs, which makes crossover cables effectively obsolete with modern hardware. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 1 16:06:06 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 17:06:06 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 1, 2012, at 3:20 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> However, to protect the citizenry, hair dryers carry a warning label to >> not use them in the water. > > I think i read somewhere that some hair dryers in the states have a RCD > (GIF) in an oversized mains plug. These days, yes. Ironically, they're about the same size as a UK mains plug. And there's still a HUGE (about 2" square) tag right by the plug reminding you not to take a bath or nap with it on. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 1 16:11:51 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 14:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120501140131.X30214@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 May 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > it strikes me that one of the main moans about RS232 was that there were > straight cables and null-modem cables and this confused people. If it had > been agereed that all 'hosts' -- that is computers -- would be wired as > DTEs, and all 'slaves' -- modems, printers, etc -- would be wired as > DCEs, there would bne no problem. The problem arrose because you could > link 'hosts' (computers) directly togther with RS232. You would have them wire printers as DCE? My first printer was a Daisy-wheel (DTC-300 HytypeI) printing terminal. If it were wired DCE, then how would I connect it to a modem when I used it as a terminal instead of as a printer? GASP! I would need to make a cable with the "transmit" pin connected to the "receive" pin at the other end! I freely admit that some further standardization for serial printers would have helped. I had that printer for months before I finally got ink onto paper. And, in the USA, I'm aware of a documented homicide over the frustrations of interfacing serial printers to microcomputers. OTOH, I know somebody whose first experience with connecting a serial printer involved him reaching into a large bin of random DB25 cables, and selecting the first one that had the genders that he wanted. It turned out, by chance that that one had 2 crossed with 3 and some other crosses and ties-together between 4,5,6,8, and 20 From als at thangorodrim.de Tue May 1 16:08:47 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 23:08:47 +0200 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9FAB49.19342.1FBBA8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F9EBA73.19191.18C2A36@cclist.sydex.com> <4F9F93E6.3070503@gmail.com> <4F9FAB49.19342.1FBBA8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120501210847.GB27006@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, May 01, 2012 at 09:22:17AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 May 2012 at 8:42, Dave Wade wrote: > > > Aren't units fun. I once watched an English cookery program by Delia > > Smith in Canada, another Metric country. She dutifully read out all > > the measurements in imperial, Metric and where oven temperatures were > > concerned Gas Mark units, but of course for the US cooks there was > > also a sub-title card translating the quantities into "cups" however > > big those are.... .. mind you they al;so had a program on how to dress > > down in style... > > It can get pretty confusing. Some measurements are volumentric (e.g. > a cup of flour) where the other party uses measurement by mass (e.g. > grams). How much does a cup of flour weigh? (Sifted, unsifted, > whole wheat, rice flour....?). Yeah, I never understood why one would want to measure, of all things, flour by _volume_. You can do that with water for the obvious reason, but the density of flour can vary quite a bit (see above). > If you're a "cook by the book" type, you're in for much head- > scratching. Fortunately, I'm not. Some recipes are more sensitive to precise quantities than others. But with sufficient experience, one can usually start with bad measurements and improve where needed. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 1 16:26:56 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 22:26:56 +0100 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA05520.9090204@gmail.com> On 01/05/2012 20:02, Tony Duell wrote: >> I am collecting bits to build a 6809 machine and I wanted some EPROMS >> for the monitor. I found I found 4 x NECD2716Ds which I am sure these >> will do fine for that. I and also I think they can be programmed in a >> Willem. > Given that uyou only need an 8 bit databus on a 6809 system, is there a > goodreson not to use a 27(C)64 for the monitor? Point being that those > ave very easy to get, every programemr will supprot them and it's only > one 28 pin chip to wire up. > > -tony > Sorry Tony, I guess one passable reason is that I don't want to use 8k for a monitor, although I could always program alternative monitors in 1 or 2k segments and select with a switch. So whilst 4 x 2716 chips are sufficient, allowing for spares etc, I wasn't intending to use them all on the same board. Dave. P.S. on checking on E-Bay UK 2764s seem quite expensive compared to 2732's... From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 1 16:27:59 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 17:27:59 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9FEBB5.18016.11B6149@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F9E946F.11542.F7ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 30, 12 01:32:31 pm, <4F9FEBB5.18016.11B6149@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On May 1, 2012, at 4:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 May 2012 at 19:52, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Is there no equivalent of a 'service request' in USB? (I;ve not read >> the stnadard seriously)? > > Not as far as I've read the standard. "Speak only when spoken to" > appears to be the rule at least in 1.x and 2.x. USB OTG is a little > different in that some devices can assume either the guise of a > controller or a slave, but one still can't have multiple controllers > in a USB topology as far I know--which may well be dated by now.. OTG really only allows devices to negotiate who is the master and the slave, once, at connection time (assuming I've read it right). It's really a hack to allow two like devices to connect rather than anything really useful (like peer-to-peer communications). - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 1 16:42:18 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 15:42:18 -0600 Subject: Gone extinct In-Reply-To: <15410248.1335893895797.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <15410248.1335893895797.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4FA058BA.1070700@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/1/2012 11:38 AM, J. Chris Hausler wrote: > No software for a 6809??? What about FLEX and UniFLEX from TSC for > an OS and Stylograph for a word processor not to mention Dynacalc for > a spreadsheed and numerous BASIC's, editors, assemblers, > disassemblers, diagnostic tools, etc. > The ad for the 6809 computer, said not a thing about software. > I still have a 6809 system which runs FLEX with both Stylograph and > Dynacalc and many other things running with two 8 inch and two 5 1/4 > inch floppies just fine... I did have a COCO with OS/9, but the floppy disk card was temperamental. Ben. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue May 1 16:43:55 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 17:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201205012143.RAA23523@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > it strikes me that one of the main moans about RS232 was that there > were straight cables and null-modem cables and this confused people. > If it had been agereed that all 'hosts' -- that is computers -- would > be wired as DTEs, and all 'slaves' -- modems, printers, etc -- would > be wired as DCEs, there would bne no problem. Well, that was pretty much the idea, as I understand it. But, as you say, > The problem arrose because you could link 'hosts' (computers) > directly togther with RS232. And that's what a null modem is for. Conceptually, it's two back-to-back modems, implemented by non-straight-through wiring in the cable (or connector or whatever). Twisted-pair Ethernet appears to have learned nothing from the serial-line confusion; it went with two different wirings (`host' and `hub') and thus repeated the straight-vs-crossover cable issue in a new field. It would have made so much more sense, even more than for RS-232, for everything to have the same wiring, so there's only one kind of cable involved. Instead, we had two kinds of cables for a long time, and even now we have special hardware capabilities (called "auto-X" or "auto-MDI") to compensate for the whole mess. RS-232 can, to a degree, be excused by its vintage; when it was developed, the zeitgeist was much more heavily into the DTE/DCE dichotomy than now. Twisted-pair Ethernet had much less excuse. > USB seems to avoid this my simply making it impossible to direclty > link 2 hosts. I ds not see that as an improvement!. Agreed! Totally agreed. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 1 16:51:00 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 14:51:00 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <1AD04AFD-57DE-4F3F-964F-D2B763342066@comcast.net> References: <1AD04AFD-57DE-4F3F-964F-D2B763342066@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4FA05AC4.6020405@brouhaha.com> CRC wrote: > Nope - It's a windowed, ceramic chip with the markings clearly NEC2316... ->CRC Does it have an NEC logo? AFAIK, NEC didn't ever use "NEC" as a prefix for their part numbers, which suggests that either it's a part from another vendor that happened to use "NEC" as a prefix, or that 2316 was some sort of date code or lot number. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue May 1 17:02:14 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 00:02:14 +0200 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4F9D9331.22713.2308E42@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F9D6A3D.3071.19094E3@cclist.sydex.com> , <4F9D9331.22713.2308E42@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1335909734.16393.8.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> s?n 2012-04-29 klockan 19:14 -0700 skrev Chuck Guzis: > > Aluminum is still code for high-current appliance wiring, where multi- > strand cable is used. Indeed, it's still used for power drops in > some locales as well as high-tension power distribution. FWIW, my > house was built in the 1980s. The feed from the transformer sitting > in the front yard going to the distribution panel is aluminum and it > was replaced about 8 years ago. I'd be surprised if there weren't a > fair amount of use of aluminum throughout the world for high-current > distribution. > Here in Sweden alu is used in the main high tension (400 kV) net. It is used everywhere from 10 kV and upwards. In substations and distribution stations including customer owned (for an example an industry) copper is used for the power buses (3-phase so 3 rails.) The overhead power cable on the railway (15 kV one phase) is 60 mm^2 copper. It is a bit peculiar considering its characteristics because of this: one electric locomotive pulls somewhere around 5 MW of electric power and it does so thru a rather long cable, many 10s of km in fact which makes for staggering distribution losses. From doc at vaxen.net Tue May 1 17:05:49 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 17:05:49 -0500 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <20120501140131.X30214@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120501140131.X30214@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FA05E3D.2070503@vaxen.net> On 5/1/12 4:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I freely admit that some further standardization for serial printers would > have helped. I had that printer for months before I finally got ink onto > paper. And, in the USA, I'm aware of a documented homicide over the > frustrations of interfacing serial printers to microcomputers. Oh, do tell! PLEASE do tell! Doc, who has worked with serial printers From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue May 1 17:12:28 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 10:12:28 +1200 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <20120501140131.X30214@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120501140131.X30214@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > > I freely admit that some further standardization for serial printers would > have helped. I had that printer for months before I finally got ink onto > paper. And, in the USA, I'm aware of a documented homicide over the > frustrations of interfacing serial printers to microcomputers. > > > > It wasn't just the cables either. The connectors were not standard. Even the good old DB-25 pin connectors. Case in point, the IBM PC adopting a male DB-25 on their serial cards where almost every other 8-bit business computer was using a female one at the computer end. Instead, IBM used the female one for the parallel printer connection!! Terry (Tez) From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue May 1 17:16:51 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 00:16:51 +0200 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1335910611.16393.18.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tis 2012-05-01 klockan 20:20 +0100 skrev Tony Duell: > > There was/is a threatended strick by petrol delivery tanker drivers, so > the government suggested people should keep a can of petrol i nthe > garage. Somebody was burned when pouring petrol from such a can into a > jug in a kitech with a lighted gas cooker in it. And certain people then > statted blaming the governemtn for giving fangerous advice. > > Firstly, the government did not jsugest pouring said fuel into jug in a > kitchen. > > And secondly (and more inmportantly IMHO) anyone who doesn't realises > that pourign petorl (gasoline) in a room containing a naked flame is a > very bad idea deserves all they get. Petrol is flammable. That's why it's > used as a car fuel. If you don;t know that, well... > I don't think people really understands how flamable petrol is compared to diesel,crude oil or kerosene for that matter. IN my 'hot works safety course' the teacher explained very carefully what can happen if you pour petrol carelessly (no stream of petrol thru air which is longer than i think he said 10 cm.) Beyond that means a risk for ignition due to static electricity. Personally it is entirely possible that i wouldnt catch the implications of the fact that the heater inside the kitchen which i currently is in always has a flame inside if travelling abroad to for example England. Regarding petrol storage at homes: Sweden have rather stringent laws regarding how much petrol someone is allow to store at home (a jeep type can can be said to be the maximum allowed amount.) Which is still a very nice BOMB. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue May 1 17:27:06 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 00:27:06 +0200 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1335911226.16393.27.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> s?n 2012-04-29 klockan 20:47 +0100 skrev Tony Duell: > > What is a "consumer unit", Rob? > > > > OK, I'm not Rob, but I use the term... > > It;s what's commonly called a fusebox (or breaker box). The incoming > mains cable to a house (or simuilar) in the UK goes throguh a sealed > electriciy company fuse, then the watthour meterand then to the 'comsumer > unit;' which the first part owned by the consumer. It consists of a > double-pole main switch and various protectvie devicees (fuses, circuit > breakers, RCDs [1]) wiich then feed the various power circuits and > lighting cirucits of the house. > > [1] Residual Current Device. I am not sure if that trem crosses the Pond, > it's a device that detects an imbalance of current in the live and > neutral wires, indicating a leak to earth somewhere, agd turns off the > supply if that imbalance is greater than a certain (small, perahps 30mA) > value. > For the RCD to be classified as a person protective device it is 30 mA which is a current deemed to not be dangerous towards the heart. An 300 mA RCD is classified as an 'fire protection device' but not person protective so for example an heating pump would be connected by itself via one such device. The fridge in the kitchen would require an 30 mA personal protection device. RCDs is a bit uneffective because it is entirely possible to get currents thru you body which the RCD won't know to cut. It exist an certain risk that the current will pass from the phase thru your body and back to the RCD thru the neutral connector. battery or pneumaticly driven hand-tools is safer because of this. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 1 17:27:42 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 23:27:42 +0100 Subject: Pictures of an KDJ11-BF (was KDF) ?? In-Reply-To: <20120501140522.GC47694@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120501140522.GC47694@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FA0635E.3080103@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/05/2012 15:05, Holm Tiffe wrote: > The M8190-AB should be an KDJ11-BB 11/73 CPU. I have an MSV11-JE (M8637-E) > PMI Memory Card too and I'm wondering if I can use them thogether.. Certainly. If you put it below the CPU, it will behave as normal QBus memory, or if you put it above, it will work as PMI memory. > What are the differences from the KDJ11-BB to the KDJ11-BF? Are there > pictures to look at somwhere on the net? The final letter denotes the board revision, unlike KDF11-B where it denotes the firmware revision. Technically at least, it has nothing to do with PMI capability; all KDJ11-B have that. Originally, the -BF boards sold as 11/83 (etc) used PMI memory and were all 18MHz, while the boards (mostly -BB and -BC) sold in 11/73 systems (non-PMI QBus memory) were only 15MHz, but either flavour will work either way. Early 11/73 boards won't work with an FPJ11 (-BB should be OK). You mentioned the EPROM numbers in a later post. 23-395E5 and 23-396E5 aren't ones I'd heard of, though, but likely are merely later ones than I knew of (or have copies of). I knew of V6.0, V7.0, and V8.0. Fancy dumping the contents to a couple of files? See http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs for more. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 1 17:52:08 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 15:52:08 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <4F9E946F.11542.F7ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 30, 12 01:32:31 pm, <4F9FEBB5.18016.11B6149@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FA06918.1070205@brouhaha.com> David Riley wrote: > OTG really only allows devices to negotiate who is the master and the > slave, once, at connection time At connection time it is fixed, not negotiated, based on which kind of USB plug (A or B) is inserted into the OTG entity's AB receptacle. This is sensed by the ID pin, which is grounded in a USB A plug, and unconnected or pulled to Vbus in a USB B plug. There are three main cases: 1) OTG entity with AB connector is connected to a host. Cable is A (host) to B (OTG entity). The OTG entity senses via the ID pin that a B plug is inserted into its AB connector, and enters device role. 2) OTG entity with AB connector is conntected to a device. Cable is A (OTG entity) to B (device). The OTG entity sense via the ID pin that an A plug is inserted into its AB connector, and enters host role. 3) Two OTG entities with AB connectors are connected together. Cable is A to B. The OTG entity sensing via the ID pin that an A plug is inserted enters host role. The OTG entity sensing via the ID pin that a B plug is inserted enters device mode. Note that the user could plug the cable between the two devices in either orientation, and that determines which OTG entity is configured as host and which as device. In case 3 *only*, Host Negotiation Protocol (HNP) can be used to allow the OTG entity in the device role to request that the roles be reversed. Note that A-A cables or B-B cables are NOT used even for OTG, and are not allowable cable configurations per the USB standard. Some stores actually sell passive A male to A male cables, which are completely useless, and I've never been able to figure out why they are made or why someone would buy one. There are active A male to A male cables, which are used for file transfer between two hosts, but these actually contain electronics that implements device role with respect to each host. Plugging a passive A male to A male cable into two hosts will not accomplish anything useful, and could even damage the hosts. On the other hand, A male to A female or B male to B female cables are at least useful as extenders, though not permitted by the standard. > It's really a hack to allow two like devices to connect rather than > anything really useful (like peer-to-peer communications). It is intended for and supports a lot more than plugging two like devices together. For instance, it can be used to connect a camera to a printer. The main limitation is that an embedded host usually is only able to control a limited selection of devices, which comprise that host's Targeted Peripheral List (TPL). Unlike a PC, a camera doesn't usually support the user installing printer drivers, so it probably can only support specific printer models. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 1 17:51:05 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 15:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4FA05E3D.2070503@vaxen.net> References: <20120501140131.X30214@shell.lmi.net> <4FA05E3D.2070503@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <20120501154630.S30214@shell.lmi.net> > > paper. And, in the USA, I'm aware of a documented homicide over the > > frustrations of interfacing serial printers to microcomputers. On Tue, 1 May 2012, Doc Shipley wrote: > Oh, do tell! PLEASE do tell! ~35 years ago, a guy took a computer and a printer into a Computerland store. After 6 weeks without results, the user shot and killed the Computerland guy. Sorry, that's all that I remember. I mentioned the incident to Joe Campbell while he was writing his "RS232 Solution" book. He tracked it down and mentioned it in the book - there might be more detail there. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 1 17:56:33 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 15:56:33 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <20120501140131.X30214@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FA06A21.7060000@brouhaha.com> Terry Stewart wrote: > the good old DB-25 pin connectors. Case in point, the IBM PC adopting a > male DB-25 on their serial cards where almost every other 8-bit business > computer was using a female one at the computer end. Actually IBM got that one right. DTE (e.g., computers, printers) are supposed to use the male connector, and DCE (e.g., modems) are supposed to use the female. > Instead, IBM used the > female one for the parallel printer connection!! Using a DB25 of either gender for a parallel printer connector was brain-damaged. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 1 18:06:30 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 16:06:30 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <1335910611.16393.18.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: , <1335910611.16393.18.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <4FA00A06.22735.191CB50@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 May 2012 at 0:16, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > IN my 'hot works safety course' the teacher explained very carefully > what can happen if you pour petrol carelessly (no stream of petrol > thru air which is longer than i think he said 10 cm.) Beyond that > means a risk for ignition due to static electricity. Periodically, some idiot will use gasoline/petrol as a starter for an outdoor charcoal barbeque. Such episodes usually do not end happily. When I had some logging slash to clean up, one of the neighbors suggested gasoline as a starter. I poured about a gallon on the pile, stepped back about 50 feet and tossed a lighted rag at the pile. The sound was deafening and the explosion blew out any flame that might have been started initially. That was the last time I tried that. Diesel works so much better for that purpose. I have been known to do other stupid things on occasion, but not to repeat them too often. --Chuck From shumaker at att.net Tue May 1 18:31:47 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 19:31:47 -0400 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513492C8F@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513490D56@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1335813462.14310.YahooMailClassic@web184508.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051349214B@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <4F9FE956.6020205@att.net> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513492C8F@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <4FA07263.4070103@att.net> On 5/1/2012 2:45 PM, Bob Brown wrote: > Was yours similar to the one currently for sale? Was it as clean as the pictures show? Did yours include the core and all the boards? > -Bob > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 8:47 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: another HP2100 on govliquidation > > On 5/1/2012 9:00 AM, Bob Brown wrote: > >> Any idea what it may cost to ship this to the Chicago area? >> -Bob >> >> bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR >> Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations >> Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Rosenbloom >> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 2:18 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: RE: another HP2100 on govliquidation >> >> >> >> --- On Mon, 4/30/12, Bob Brown wrote: >> >> >> >>> From: Bob Brown >>> Subject: RE: another HP2100 on govliquidation >>> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" >>> Date: Monday, April 30, 2012, 11:46 AM >>> So, is this auction for a potentially >>> viable 2100S or is there some reason that it wouldn't be a >>> good buy? >>> -Bob >>> >>> bbrown at harpercollege.edu >>> #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR >>> Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of >>> Operations >>> Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by >>> grace >>> >>> >>> >> The thing I noticed is the power cord is stored in the unit. Must be >> taking up quite a bit of space as it's a think, long cable. I'd be >> worried that some boards are missing, or if your lucky, it just >> has no I/O cards. Worst case, the cord is stored where the core >> memory was. >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> > pkg weight was 140lb for the unit I obtained. prep and shipping from > Columbus OH to Santa Cruz CA was ~$200 per unit. > > steve > > > My units appear identical to this one. Systems were not as new looking as this one although a lot of that can be attributed to "shelf wear" on the boxes... Both units have core memory in them but one has significantly more cards installed (almost the entire cage is loaded). I'd hazard a guess that these were actually used and pulled from an operational environment. Both appear intact but without a list of what was considered a "standard" card load, it's hard to tell which one is the more "typical." I've not had an opportunity to remove, catalog and photograph either unit yet so I don't have a way to compare them. IMHO, my guess is that this latest one is probably a pretty good score. Just remember though that Govliquidation urges you to inspect the goods for a reason! Steve From barythrin at yahoo.com Tue May 1 19:17:18 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 17:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513492C8F@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <1335917838.43379.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Interesting. Went for $640.00. Anyone gonna fess up? All the paperwork and warnings scared me off from even trying although I coulda made a road trip (roughly the same value as the price to ship it though). From brain at jbrain.com Tue May 1 19:30:22 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 19:30:22 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Apple Keyboard Encoder MM5740AA/E In-Reply-To: <52999.10.2.0.194.1335894210.squirrel@rittwage.com> References: <52999.10.2.0.194.1335894210.squirrel@rittwage.com> Message-ID: <4FA0801E.3060107@jbrain.com> On 5/1/2012 12:43 PM, Pete Rittwage wrote: > Hi guys, > > I apologize if this isn't the place for this... > > These come up on eBay every so often, but they are untested or I miss > them. Does anyone have any spares of this old chip? I've got an old > Apple II that I'd like to use the regular keyboard instead of a PS/2 > adapter. > > I purchased some of the "C" variant (MM5740AA/C) some time back, but they > have a different key mapping than the Apple computers. If someone needs > those I can post for free or trade. I have no idea what keyboard they > were used in. > > - > Pete Rittwage > Augusta, GA, USA > Any interest in an module that replicates the /E functionality? (or, maybe there is already such a thing) Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 1 19:59:53 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 17:59:53 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4FA06A21.7060000@brouhaha.com> References: , , <4FA06A21.7060000@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FA02499.29294.1F9986F@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 May 2012 at 15:56, Eric Smith wrote: > Using a DB25 of either gender for a parallel printer connector was > brain-damaged. ..or SCSI or a whole bunch of other things. On the other hand, a DC37 would have been completely appropriate for a Dataproducts interface. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 1 20:06:12 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 21:06:12 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120501210847.GB27006@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4F9EBA73.19191.18C2A36@cclist.sydex.com> <4F9F93E6.3070503@gmail.com> <4F9FAB49.19342.1FBBA8@cclist.sydex.com> <20120501210847.GB27006@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On May 1, 2012, at 5:08 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> It can get pretty confusing. Some measurements are volumentric (e.g. >> a cup of flour) where the other party uses measurement by mass (e.g. >> grams). How much does a cup of flour weigh? (Sifted, unsifted, >> whole wheat, rice flour....?). > > Yeah, I never understood why one would want to measure, of all things, > flour by _volume_. You can do that with water for the obvious reason, > but the density of flour can vary quite a bit (see above). The simple answer is because it's cheaper to have a volume measurement than a weight measurement. Lots of cooks over here don't have food scales (setting aside the fact that most people can't cook here unless it can be dumped out of a can or a box and microwaved). Obviously, this leads to wild variation in consistency. One solution is to specify sifted flour, which a lot of old recipes did, because that gets you a lot closer to a similar mass. People stopped sifting much here a long time ago because they thought it was primarily to get rid of leftover chaff in the flour (which we don't have anymore), but it got rid of the ancillary benefits, too. Either way, it's not specified in cookbooks anymore, but when my wife or I cook from Euro recipes, we break out the food scale. - Dave From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue May 1 20:21:27 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 20:21:27 -0500 Subject: Ge workmaster (ibm 5155 rebrand) Message-ID: anyone els got one of these beasts just picked up a second one as mines missing parts got software and the plc's they were used to talk the one i have got other manuals that go with it also http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9958/56113621.jpg and the one i grabbed http://www.ebay.com/itm/130682151371?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 1 21:27:11 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 21:27:11 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Apple Keyboard Encoder MM5740AA/E In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA09B7F.6000600@pico-systems.com> Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 13:43:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Pete Rittwage" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Wanted: Apple Keyboard Encoder MM5740AA/E Message-ID: <52999.10.2.0.194.1335894210.squirrel at rittwage.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Hi guys, I apologize if this isn't the place for this... These come up on eBay every so often, but they are untested or I miss them. Does anyone have any spares of this old chip? I've got an old Apple II that I'd like to use the regular keyboard instead of a PS/2 adapter. I purchased some of the "C" variant (MM5740AA/C) some time back, but they have a different key mapping than the Apple computers. If someone needs those I can post for free or trade. I have no idea what keyboard they were used in. I have an MM5740AAC/N which I used to keep an industrial control working. It hasn't been turned on in 13 years, but ought to still be good. The key codes are in the data sheets, which ought to still be searchable online. I made an adaptor board that plugs into the MM5740 socket and recodes for the funny char sequence that that particular machine used. It uses a 2732 as the code translator. Jon From barythrin at yahoo.com Tue May 1 21:50:08 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 19:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ge workmaster (ibm 5155 rebrand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1335927008.61999.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Interesting rebrand. Odd looking paint job, I guess that's with dust/time that it fades and sorta looks like a spray paint job? I have to admit, I lol'd at the 301 error. Gotta love a keyboard error asking to press F1 to continue. --- On Tue, 5/1/12, Adrian Stoness wrote: > From: Adrian Stoness > anyone els got one of these beasts > just picked up a second one as mines > missing parts got software and the plc's they were used to > talk > > and the one i grabbed > http://www.ebay.com/itm/130682151371?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue May 1 22:31:08 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 22:31:08 -0500 Subject: Ge workmaster (ibm 5155 rebrand) In-Reply-To: <1335927008.61999.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1335927008.61999.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: its got a textured finish i don't think its painted i could be wrong will look over the one i got apart when i get home from up north work stint (14 days 12hr days) it boots into basic if u don't have a hdd or a boot disk in it and yea the error is funny http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7490/mobonh.jpg On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Sam Onella wrote: > Interesting rebrand. Odd looking paint job, I guess that's with dust/time > that it fades and sorta looks like a spray paint job? > > I have to admit, I lol'd at the 301 error. Gotta love a keyboard error > asking to press F1 to continue. > > --- On Tue, 5/1/12, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > From: Adrian Stoness > > anyone els got one of these beasts > > just picked up a second one as mines > > missing parts got software and the plc's they were used to > > talk > > > > and the one i grabbed > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/130682151371?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 > > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed May 2 02:07:09 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 08:07:09 +0100 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120501092518.W21316@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> <201205010000.UAA03418@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> <41BF0B94-800C-4E24-A79E-49216D09A6CB@gmail.com> <20120501092518.W21316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > >>>> What hewaters are Probably What he wants are or What he wants is Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 01 May 2012 17:30 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: OT: Re: Audiophilia > > I haven't been paying attention, but is English his first langauge? As opposed to what? British?? On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, David Riley wrote: > Yes. Some of us aren't perfect typists, but it's not really important. > You can still read it, no? Usually. I may point out ones that are truly FUNNY, but I don't ridicule typos, for fear that somebody will notice how many I make. But, I needed help deciphering > >>>> What hewaters are From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 2 02:20:25 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 00:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> <201205010000.UAA03418@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> <41BF0B94-800C-4E24-A79E-49216D09A6CB@gmail.com> <20120501092518.W21316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 May 2012, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>>>>> What hewaters are Because English words can be mangled quite a bit and the original meaning can still be understood, I wonder now and then if this fact was exploited in the realm of cryptography. Now it wouldn't make much sense given the math involved in modern cryptography, but for paper and pencil ciphers, maybe it would. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed May 2 03:00:05 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 10:00:05 +0200 Subject: OT: Mangled english [Was: Audiophilia] In-Reply-To: References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> <201205010000.UAA03418@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> <41BF0B94-800C-4E24-A79E-49216D09A6CB@gmail.com> <20120501092518.W21316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120502080005.GA22726@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 12:20:25AM -0700, David Griffith wrote: > Because English words can be mangled quite a bit and the original > meaning can still be understood, I wonder now and then if this fact > was exploited in the realm of cryptography. It is used in the military to confuse the enemy. Lables and signs in the swedish army is often shortened in a way that is clear to a swede in the given context. E.g. ksp = kulsprutepistol (machine gun) strv = stridsvagn (tank) StriBy = Strid i Bebyggelse (urban combat) And my favourite: Grdman = Grodman (scuba diver) There, I hope I haven't broken any laws :) Cheers, Pontus. From holm at freibergnet.de Wed May 2 05:16:31 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 12:16:31 +0200 Subject: Pictures of an KDJ11-BF (was KDF) ?? In-Reply-To: <4FA0635E.3080103@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20120501140522.GC47694@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FA0635E.3080103@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20120502101631.GA33147@beast.freibergnet.de> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 01/05/2012 15:05, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > The M8190-AB should be an KDJ11-BB 11/73 CPU. I have an MSV11-JE (M8637-E) > > PMI Memory Card too and I'm wondering if I can use them thogether.. > > Certainly. If you put it below the CPU, it will behave as normal QBus > memory, or if you put it above, it will work as PMI memory. > > > What are the differences from the KDJ11-BB to the KDJ11-BF? Are there > > pictures to look at somwhere on the net? > > The final letter denotes the board revision, unlike KDF11-B where it > denotes the firmware revision. Technically at least, it has nothing to > do with PMI capability; all KDJ11-B have that. Originally, the -BF > boards sold as 11/83 (etc) used PMI memory and were all 18MHz, while the > boards (mostly -BB and -BC) sold in 11/73 systems (non-PMI QBus memory) > were only 15MHz, but either flavour will work either way. Early 11/73 > boards won't work with an FPJ11 (-BB should be OK). > > You mentioned the EPROM numbers in a later post. 23-395E5 and 23-396E5 > aren't ones I'd heard of, though, but likely are merely later ones than > I knew of (or have copies of). I knew of V6.0, V7.0, and V8.0. Fancy > dumping the contents to a couple of files? > > See http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs for more. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York Is that your site? Here are the Images: http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP11/KDJ11-BB/23-395E5.bin http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP11/KDJ11-BB/23-396E5.bin ...looked at the data(cat 23-395E5.bin 23-396E5.bin >all.bin and vis versa) that looks that they have mangled adress/data lines somewhat, nothing readably there.. Same on the 23-168E5.bin and 23-169E5.bin that appears to be on Olegs board. (see below) I've checked something against that picture from Oleg's 11/83 in the menatime: http://pdp-11.org.ru/~form/pdp11-83/ The Board Revision (upper left) is the same, the Cache is the same, the DC351 is the same (the DC350 is looking different, has a silver plate, mine has a golden plate) and the DCJ11-AC is the same as on my board (same 57-19400-04). So I'm soldered an 18,432Mhz Xtal in (haven't found 18.00 in my stock jet) and at least the continous selftest from the ROMs is running flawlessly (~860 passes w/o Error). Map is displaying 18.429 MHz CPU Options: FPA. So I finally think there is no real difference from my KDJ11-BB to the KDJ11-BF board, at least in my case. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed May 2 08:19:37 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 09:19:37 -0400 Subject: Ge workmaster (ibm 5155 rebrand) In-Reply-To: References: <1335927008.61999.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9020E538-D50E-442B-B343-0E6F45DDCCB6@gmail.com> On May 1, 2012, at 11:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > its got a textured finish i don't think its painted i could be wrong will > look over the one i got apart when i get home from up north work stint (14 > days 12hr days) > > it boots into basic if u don't have a hdd or a boot disk in it > and yea the error is funny > > http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7490/mobonh.jpg That picture looks almost exactly like an XT motherboard. - Dave From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed May 2 08:24:51 2012 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 13:24:51 +0000 Subject: another HP2100 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <1335917838.43379.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513492C8F@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1335917838.43379.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513493A0A@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> I tried but got outbid. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sam Onella Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 7:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: another HP2100 on govliquidation Interesting. Went for $640.00. Anyone gonna fess up? All the paperwork and warnings scared me off from even trying although I coulda made a road trip (roughly the same value as the price to ship it though). From peter at rittwage.com Wed May 2 10:18:18 2012 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 11:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: Apple Keyboard Encoder MM5740AA/E In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59041.10.2.0.194.1335971898.squirrel@rittwage.com> > Date: Tue, 01 May 2012 19:30:22 -0500 > From: Jim Brain > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Wanted: Apple Keyboard Encoder MM5740AA/E > Message-ID: <4FA0801E.3060107 at jbrain.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 5/1/2012 12:43 PM, Pete Rittwage wrote: >> Hi guys, >> >> I apologize if this isn't the place for this... >> >> These come up on eBay every so often, but they are untested or I miss >> them. Does anyone have any spares of this old chip? I've got an old >> Apple II that I'd like to use the regular keyboard instead of a PS/2 >> adapter. >> >> I purchased some of the "C" variant (MM5740AA/C) some time back, but >> they >> have a different key mapping than the Apple computers. If someone needs >> those I can post for free or trade. I have no idea what keyboard they >> were used in. >> >> - >> Pete Rittwage >> Augusta, GA, USA >> > Any interest in an module that replicates the /E functionality? > > (or, maybe there is already such a thing) > > Jim > > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > Not quite yet. Mike Willegal has done pin mappings to use an AVR as a drop-in replacement, but hasn't written any software yet. - Pete Rittwage C64 Preservation Project http://c64preservation.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 2 11:16:50 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 09:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: <20120430153348.U65017@shell.lmi.net> <201205010000.UAA03418@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F9F490B.9090906@gmail.com> <41BF0B94-800C-4E24-A79E-49216D09A6CB@gmail.com> <20120501092518.W21316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120502091447.U59187@shell.lmi.net> > > >>>> What hewaters are On Wed, 2 May 2012, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Probably What he wants are or What he wants is It was obviously "What he waters" but it was a little confusing because the discussion was electricians, not gardeners. From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 2 11:27:06 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 10:27:06 -0600 Subject: fyi... ebay changed all the computer categories Message-ID: Not sure when they did this, but they changed a bunch of categories in the computers section. So if you had saved searches, check them to make sure they are still finding the correct things. For instance, I had a search for dials boxes and button boxes. A new item was listed (sgi dials box) that this search used to find, but doesn't find anymore because the category it was searching no longer exists. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From brain at jbrain.com Wed May 2 11:31:20 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (brain at jbrain.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 12:31:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: Apple Keyboard Encoder MM5740AA/E In-Reply-To: <59041.10.2.0.194.1335971898.squirrel@rittwage.com> References: <59041.10.2.0.194.1335971898.squirrel@rittwage.com> Message-ID: <597368554.387581.1335976280173.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1and1.com> On May 2, 2012 at 11:18 AM Pete Rittwage wrote: > > Any interest in an module that replicates the /E functionality? > > > > (or, maybe there is already such a thing) > > > > Jim > > > > > > -- > > Jim Brain > > brain at jbrain.com > > www.jbrain.com > > > > Not quite yet. Mike Willegal has done pin mappings to use an AVR as a > drop-in replacement, but hasn't written any software yet. Interestingly, I pulled up the IC last night to see how easy a mapping to AVR would be. Please let Mike know he can have the PS2Encoder and/or C=Key code to help the effort. (both GPL). I've just been in the code to add 16x8 KB scanning routines to the encoder firmware, and that could pretty quickly be modified to do 16x16 (handling the 10x9 of the Apple encoder). Both are AVR GCC. I'm happy to help with modifying the firmware as well. Jim From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 2 11:46:00 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 17:46:00 +0100 Subject: Pictures of an KDJ11-BF (was KDF) ?? In-Reply-To: <20120502101631.GA33147@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120501140522.GC47694@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FA0635E.3080103@dunnington.plus.com> <20120502101631.GA33147@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FA164C8.4050204@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/05/2012 11:16, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> See http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs for more. > Is that your site? Yes, it is. > Here are the Images: Thanks! I'll upload them and edit the list later. > ...looked at the data(cat 23-395E5.bin 23-396E5.bin >all.bin and vis versa) > that looks that they have mangled adress/data lines somewhat, nothing > readably there.. > Same on the 23-168E5.bin and 23-169E5.bin that appears to be on Olegs > board. (see below) They're low-byte and high-byte of 16-bit words, so unless you merge them, it will look a little odd :-) > So I'm soldered an 18,432Mhz Xtal in (haven't found 18.00 in my > stock jet) and at least the continous selftest from the ROMs is running > flawlessly (~860 passes w/o Error). > Map is displaying 18.429 MHz CPU Options: FPA. I did that to two of mine, but one had to be downgraded again because although it ran OK on it's own, it gave mysterious errors with real software on a real system. The design speed of the J11 was originally 20MHz, but it was a long time (years) before DEC got any that would actually meet that spec under all conditions. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From peter at rittwage.com Wed May 2 12:08:12 2012 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 13:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: Apple Keyboard Encoder MM5740AA/E In-Reply-To: <597368554.387581.1335976280173.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1and1.com> References: <59041.10.2.0.194.1335971898.squirrel@rittwage.com> <597368554.387581.1335976280173.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1and1.com> Message-ID: <60580.10.2.0.194.1335978492.squirrel@rittwage.com> On Wed, May 2, 2012 12:31 pm, brain at jbrain.com wrote: > > On May 2, 2012 at 11:18 AM Pete Rittwage wrote: > >> > Any interest in an module that replicates the /E functionality? >> > >> > (or, maybe there is already such a thing) >> > >> > Jim >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Jim Brain >> > brain at jbrain.com >> > www.jbrain.com >> > >> >> Not quite yet. Mike Willegal has done pin mappings to use an AVR as a >> drop-in replacement, but hasn't written any software yet. > > > > Interestingly, I pulled up the IC last night to see how easy a mapping to > AVR would be. > > > > Please let Mike know he can have the PS2Encoder and/or C=Key code to help > the effort. (both GPL). I've just been in the code to add 16x8 KB > scanning > routines to the encoder firmware, and that could pretty quickly be > modified > to do 16x16 (handling the 10x9 of the Apple encoder). Both are AVR GCC. > I'm happy to help with modifying the firmware as well. > > > > Jim > Thanks Jim- I'll forward this to him. -Pete From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 2 12:10:34 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 10:10:34 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <20120501140131.X30214@shell.lmi.net> References: ,<20120501140131.X30214@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > > On Tue, 1 May 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > it strikes me that one of the main moans about RS232 was that there were > > straight cables and null-modem cables and this confused people. If it had > > been agereed that all 'hosts' -- that is computers -- would be wired as > > DTEs, and all 'slaves' -- modems, printers, etc -- would be wired as > > DCEs, there would bne no problem. The problem arrose because you could > > link 'hosts' (computers) directly togther with RS232. > > You would have them wire printers as DCE? > My first printer was a Daisy-wheel (DTC-300 HytypeI) printing terminal. > If it were wired DCE, then how would I connect it to a modem when I used > it as a terminal instead of as a printer? GASP! I would need to make a > cable with the "transmit" pin connected to the "receive" pin at the other > end! > > I freely admit that some further standardization for serial printers would > have helped. I had that printer for months before I finally got ink onto > paper. And, in the USA, I'm aware of a documented homicide over the > frustrations of interfacing serial printers to microcomputers. > > OTOH, I know somebody whose first experience with connecting a serial > printer involved him reaching into a large bin of random DB25 cables, and > selecting the first one that had the genders that he wanted. It turned > out, by chance that that one had 2 crossed with 3 and some other crosses > and ties-together between 4,5,6,8, and 20 > > Hi I never even try to do serial without a breakout box and lights. Even that isn't always enough. I recall that Heathkit inverted one of the handshake signals from what everyone else used. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 13:57:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 19:57:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at May 1, 12 05:02:35 pm Message-ID: > I doubt that was why they did it, though. I'm sure it had much more > to do with simplifying device electronics so they could be implemented > on very cheap microcontrollers at low power consumption, rather than Actually, thats' 2 more resons in favour of RS232 for me... Firstly, USB _requires- a microcontroller really. The protocol is too complciated to build from hardwired logic. Asynchronous RS232 can by done using a microcontrolelr (either ther a built-in UART or bit-banged) _or from simple logic chips if you so wish_. I guess I don't like having to have more computer power in the I/O chip than in the rest of the machine :-) Secondly, the fact that RS32 does not use TTL (or 3.3V logic) levels means that most microcontrolelrs/FPGAs/etc (if not all) could not drive it direcrlly. For a proper implementation of an RS232 interface you had to have some sort of buffer, like a MAX232 chip. And that would bear the brunt of any zaps on the interfce connector [1]. Such a chip is a lot easier to get and replace than a programmed microcontrolker for a device that you've never seen before. I guess I don;'t want reliability... I'd rather hace somethign that fails mroe often when the parts that fail are easy to get and replace than soemthign that fails evey 5 years where I have major problems getting the IC> [1] Although not always. The serial port in my HP9817 was defective when I got the machine and I found that not only were the buffers damaged, so was the 8250 serial chipe (yes, an 8250 in a 68K machine. Odd...). I am not sure what had happened to the machine. > anything to do with the direction; after all, it's half-duplex anyway. > There's only one pair, and it goes both ways. > > Bear in mind that Ethernet has the same issues (we just call "null > modem" cables "crossover" cables instead), and people got similarly Not the ethernet I use.... All cables are srraight and have one screen and one cetnre core. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 14:06:43 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 20:06:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <20120501140131.X30214@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 1, 12 02:11:51 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 1 May 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > it strikes me that one of the main moans about RS232 was that there were > > straight cables and null-modem cables and this confused people. If it had > > been agereed that all 'hosts' -- that is computers -- would be wired as > > DTEs, and all 'slaves' -- modems, printers, etc -- would be wired as > > DCEs, there would bne no problem. The problem arrose because you could > > link 'hosts' (computers) directly togther with RS232. > > You would have them wire printers as DCE? Printers, yes, pritning terminals, no :-). Or perhaps, just enforce the convention that a DTE has a plug and a DCE has a socket (the number of manufacturers who got that wrong is amazing -- HP were particularly bad about it!). Then cables with different gender conenctors on the ends are straight, cables with the same gender connectors on the ends are null-modem. If the cable fits, it'll probably work. There's actually an even worse mis-standard, and that's the audio DIN connector. One origianl use was to link a tape recorder to an amplifier -- and the cable was straight-through. Pin 1 was the record signal (output o nthe amplifier, input on the recorder), pin 2 was ground and pin 3 was the playback signal (output on the recorder, input on the amplifier). Stereo just added pins 4 and 5 with the same directions as 1 and 3 for the right hand channel. Now you cna see the problem. How do you wire the socket on another audio device -- say a radio tuner. Well, amaziningly, if you intend it to be connected to an amplidier, you output the signal on pin 3. If you intend it to be conencted to a tape recorder, you output the signal on pin 1. Quite how the user is supposed to guess what the designer was thinking it would be used for in beyond me The reason this is worse than RS232 is that all devices have sockets, all cables end in plugs, So you can't even use that as a way of tellign how it should have been wired. > I freely admit that some further standardization for serial printers would > have helped. I had that printer for months before I finally got ink onto > paper. And, in the USA, I'm aware of a documented homicide over the I';ve yet to have problems getting an RS232 connection to work. I just use a breakout box and the schrmatics for the devices involved. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 14:08:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 20:08:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4FA05520.9090204@gmail.com> from "Dave Wade" at May 1, 12 10:26:56 pm Message-ID: > I guess one passable reason is that I don't want to use 8k for a > monitor, although I could always program alternative monitors in 1 or 2k > segments and select with a switch. > So whilst 4 x 2716 chips are sufficient, allowing for spares etc, I > wasn't intending to use them all on the same board. Ah, OK, that makes sense. > > Dave. > P.S. on checking on E-Bay UK 2764s seem quite expensive compared to > 2732's... Last ime I looked, 27C64s were very easy to get from the normal component suppliers and quire cheap. I've used them in preference to smaller devices (like 2716s() because thgey were cheap and easy to get. Perhaps things have changed now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 13:42:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 19:42:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <9C90C9446F354F6C9D8624E836679B84@vl420mt> from "MikeS" at May 1, 12 04:38:49 pm Message-ID: > I actually find an RS-232 serial interface the most flexible in terms of > machines I can connect it to, including through a USB <> serial adapter if > necessary. So do I. Of my 200-or-so computers, well over half have RS232 interfaces, and many of the rest can have them added. Those machines range from things that will fit in my pocket to things that live in 6' racks. Vonversely not one of my machines has a USB port. I don't think any of themn can. > I take it that "*all* your other devices" must be less than 15 years old > then, so what brings you to the Classic Computer List? > ;-) > > Ironic that folks on the "Classic" computer list don't even have a machine > with a serial or parallel port; I built programmers for both my PET and my > AIM65, not much more than a connector and a socket since like many classics > there were lots of available I/O pins, but from this discussion about > programmers it seems that actually _using_ a classic computer for something > useful isn't very common... I only have classic computers. Well. I only have machines that are well over 10 years old, I am not sure that all of them should be called 'classic'. So I do use them for 'useful things', including progamming EPROMs. My first EPROM programmer was home-made. It linked to a home-made serial port on my CoCo (running OS-9 of course!). Said programmer could program and emulate 2716s, 2732s, 2754s and 27128s. The reason fo the emulation was that I decided I wanted a wuicker way to debug my firmware than erasing and burning an EPROM for every fix. So I put 16K of RAM in it (a couple of 6264s) and the associated logic. Of course, since I didn't have a progammer when I built that, I couldn't use a microprocessor or microcontroller in it. It's 3 boards of TTL, a dumb UART, RAM, etc. All hand-wired. And yes, it still works. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 13:44:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 19:44:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4F9FEBB5.18016.11B6149@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 1, 12 01:57:09 pm Message-ID: > > On 1 May 2012 at 19:52, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Is there no equivalent of a 'service request' in USB? (I;ve not read > > the stnadard seriously)? > > Not as far as I've read the standard. "Speak only when spoken to" I see... And I though USB was supposed to be an improvement on what had gone before... I cna think of plenty of tiems when it is reasonable for the 'master' to control everything and to have to poll devices, equally I can think fo times when it isn't. And a so-called 'universal' interface should handle all possibilities. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 14:16:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 20:16:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <201205012143.RAA23523@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at May 1, 12 05:43:55 pm Message-ID: > > > The problem arrose because you could link 'hosts' (computers) > > directly togther with RS232. > > And that's what a null modem is for. Conceptually, it's two > back-to-back modems, implemented by non-straight-through wiring in the > cable (or connector or whatever). Er, yes, I do realise that. I have conencted rahter a lot of RS232 devices in my time... > > Twisted-pair Ethernet appears to have learned nothing from the > serial-line confusion; it went with two different wirings (`host' and > `hub') and thus repeated the straight-vs-crossover cable issue in a new > field. It would have made so much more sense, even more than for > RS-232, for everything to have the same wiring, so there's only one > kind of cable involved. Instead, we had two kinds of cables for a long Which presumably would ahve bene crossed. That is, have the Tx pair and Rx paor on the same pins of the 8p8c socket (not RJ45, please!), and have the calbe link Tx at one end to Rx at the other. > time, and even now we have special hardware capabilities (called > "auto-X" or "auto-MDI") to compensate for the whole mess. > > RS-232 can, to a degree, be excused by its vintage; when it was > developed, the zeitgeist was much more heavily into the DTE/DCE > dichotomy than now. Twisted-pair Ethernet had much less excuse. RS232 ws designed ot link a device (DTE) to a modem (DCE). It was essentiall the description of how you could conenct to the modem you rented from Ma Bell. If you;re goign to use it for soemthing else, it's not suprising there are problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 14:24:43 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 20:24:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at May 2, 12 10:12:28 am Message-ID: > > It wasn't just the cables either. The connectors were not standard. Even > the good old DB-25 pin connectors. Case in point, the IBM PC adopting a > male DB-25 on their serial cards where almost every other 8-bit business IBM got thsi right. The IBM PC serial port is wired as a DTE (terminal) and thus should have a male connector. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 14:29:10 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 20:29:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <1335910611.16393.18.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> from "Stefan Skoglund" at May 2, 12 00:16:51 am Message-ID: > IN my 'hot works safety course' the teacher explained very carefully > what can happen if you pour petrol carelessly (no stream of petrol thru > air which is longer than i think he said 10 cm.) Beyond that means a > risk for ignition due to static electricity. I was told to make sure the 2 tanks/cans were electrically conencted and conencted to a good local earth (not mains earth!). I cna't see how this would harm thigns :-) > > Personally it is entirely possible that i wouldnt catch the implications > of the fact that the heater inside the kitchen which i currently is in > always has a flame inside if travelling abroad to for example England. Older heating boilers (and gas cookers) did indeed have a 'pilot light' (aka a 'bypass;) which burns continuosly to light the main burners. Modern ones have electrical spark ignition. However, I am pretty sure in the incident I refered to, the person was actually cooking something at the time she was pouring the petrol and thus had a main burner lit too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 14:32:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 20:32:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <1335911226.16393.27.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> from "Stefan Skoglund" at May 2, 12 00:27:06 am Message-ID: > battery or pneumaticly driven hand-tools is safer because of this. 'Portable' electrical power tools used industrially (like electric drilsl on building sites, etc) in the UK have to be 110V devices run from an isolating transformer with the centre tap of the secondary conencted to earth gorudn .The idea is that the maximum shock that the user can receive from any point to earth is 55V which is unlikely to be fatal. FWIW, the transofrmers used for this are quite useful for testing US equipment over here, provided that device doesn't assume that one side fo the mains input is groudned (nothing should do, but...). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 14:39:49 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 20:39:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4FA06A21.7060000@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 1, 12 03:56:33 pm Message-ID: > > Instead, IBM used the > > female one for the parallel printer connection!! > > Using a DB25 of either gender for a parallel printer connector was > brain-damaged. Why? I have many things here that use DB25 conenctors for other than RS232 interfaces, so I don't see the problem with using it for a parallel printer port. My complaint about the IBM PC in this context is that none of the conenctors are labelled. Yes, the connector plates do look differnet if you know what to look for, so you can tell MDa from CGA from EGA monitor sockets (all DE9 sockets), but most users woulnd't know waht to look for. They should have been labelled.. The really brain-dead use of DB25s on a machine of that period is the HP150. That thing has a couple of DTE RS232 ports on DB25 _socket_. Yes, the wrong gender. That's bad enough, but there's an optional parallel+HPIL (not HP-HIL, I do know the differnce) board for that machine. The parallel port is on a DB25 _plug_, I guess to make sure you can't plug an HP serial cable in by accident. And would you believe the pins are a mirror image of the IBM parallel port. In other words, if they'd fitted a socket to the board, the IBM printer cable would plug straight in and work... I would bet they originally intended that and changed the conenctor gender at the last minute to prvvent lusers plugging serial cables into parallel ports or vice versa -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 14:43:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 20:43:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ge workmaster (ibm 5155 rebrand) In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at May 1, 12 08:21:27 pm Message-ID: > > anyone els got one of these beasts just picked up a second one as mines > missing parts got software and the plc's they were used to talk > > the one i have got other manuals that go with it also > http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9958/56113621.jpg > > and the one i grabbed > http://www.ebay.com/itm/130682151371?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 > >From the pictures it's not identical to the IBM5155. It's very similar, but the front panal layout is differnet. How simialr ar the insisdes? Does it have the normal IBM XT motherboard and I/O boards (CGA, floppy controlelr, etc) in it? I have the TechRef for the IBM5155 if you need any information... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 14:45:28 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 20:45:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at May 2, 12 00:20:25 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 2 May 2012, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > >>>>>> What hewaters are > > Because English words can be mangled quite a bit and the original meaning > can still be understood, I wonder now and then if this fact was exploited > in the realm of cryptography. Now it wouldn't make much sense given the > math involved in modern cryptography, but for paper and pencil ciphers, > maybe it would. I believe it was tried -- using 'Q' in place of 'K' and 'Z' in palce of 'S', etc to try to screw up the letter frequencies. I don't think it improved security much, there are too many other clues in breaking such ciphers. -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed May 2 15:54:46 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 16:54:46 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75D7D2F1-E672-4590-B3F5-5EF03189DDB6@gmail.com> On May 2, 2012, at 2:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I doubt that was why they did it, though. I'm sure it had much more >> to do with simplifying device electronics so they could be implemented >> on very cheap microcontrollers at low power consumption, rather than > > Actually, thats' 2 more resons in favour of RS232 for me... Didn't say it wasn't. :-) I was just commenting on why they might have made it asymmetric. I'm clearly not a fan of that fact, even if it does slightly simplify the hardware. > Secondly, the fact that RS32 does not use TTL (or 3.3V logic) levels > means that most microcontrolelrs/FPGAs/etc (if not all) could not drive > it direcrlly. For a proper implementation of an RS232 interface you had > to have some sort of buffer, like a MAX232 chip. And that would bear the > brunt of any zaps on the interfce connector [1]. Such a chip is a lot easier > to get and replace than a programmed microcontrolker for a device that > you've never seen before. A lot of microcontrollers require external PHYs for the higher-speed stuff, just because the signal is analog-ish and it makes it a little easier to avoid heavy mixed-signal design. Same reason you never saw many microcontrollers without RS-232 level shifters on them (aside from the fact that you wouldn't want to tie the customer down, as they might want 422 or 485 instead, etc.) > I guess I don;'t want reliability... I'd rather hace somethign that fails > mroe often when the parts that fail are easy to get and replace than > soemthign that fails evey 5 years where I have major problems getting the IC> Well, it's a matter of modularity. I like compactness to a point, especially if I'm trying to make something small. But if I want reliability, I'll use separate USB and Ethernet PHYs. > [1] Although not always. The serial port in my HP9817 was defective when > I got the machine and I found that not only were the buffers damaged, so > was the 8250 serial chipe (yes, an 8250 in a 68K machine. Odd...). I am > not sure what had happened to the machine. Odd indeed. Lots of 68K machines used 8350s, but that's a very different chip. - Dave From holm at freibergnet.de Wed May 2 16:56:00 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 23:56:00 +0200 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <20120501155416.GE52460@beast.freibergnet.de> <4F9FACEF.19900.262B8B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120502215600.GB89200@beast.freibergnet.de> David Riley wrote: > On May 1, 2012, at 12:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 1 May 2012 at 17:54, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > >> ...simple or not, I for my self think that classic interfaces are > >> better fit MY needs. I've finished to build an Programmer for CY7C291 > >> and Am27C291 Chips yesterday and it has a simple AtMega644P CPU on it. > >> This way I have enough RAM to buffer the ROM contents + some extra for > >> the Program on the device. Could have build it with an FTDI in it, but > >> what for? > > > > I understand. Even when working with MCUs with native USB support > > built-in, I'll dedicate some pins to driving a MAX232 for RS-232 > > serial interface for debugging, even though it may be feeding a RS232- > > to-USB adapter. It's just that 232 is simple and less prone to > > coding errors. I suppose that I could go to USB using one of the > > FTDI, but it's really a wash. > > The one huge advantage (depending on your point of view) of using the > FTDI devices is that the Windows drivers for them are fairly widely > installed on users' machines. On EVERY OTHER OS out there (in common > use by the Unwashed Masses, blah blah), you can just grab hold of a > USB device in userland with libusb, but on Windows, you still have to > install a "driver" for it, even if it's just a .inf file that says, > "hey, this is a userland-controlled device, just hand it over to > WinUSB" (which libusb can then use). I get pissed off when I have > to write .inf files, and users get pissed off when they have to > install drivers for a device just to use it with one application. > > So yeah, I use an FT232 or equivalent a lot of time unless the raw > speed of native USB communication is required. > > I don't intend to turn this into another anti-MS flamefest, so hold > off on that. This is just mind-bogglingly annoying. > > > - Dave You don't intend? :-) Simply do a "kldload uftdi.ko" *grin* Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Wed May 2 17:00:11 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 00:00:11 +0200 Subject: Pictures of an KDJ11-BF (was KDF) ?? In-Reply-To: <4FA164C8.4050204@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20120501140522.GC47694@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FA0635E.3080103@dunnington.plus.com> <20120502101631.GA33147@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FA164C8.4050204@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20120502220011.GC89200@beast.freibergnet.de> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 02/05/2012 11:16, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> See http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs for more. > > Is that your site? > > Yes, it is. > > > Here are the Images: > > Thanks! I'll upload them and edit the list later. > > > ...looked at the data(cat 23-395E5.bin 23-396E5.bin >all.bin and vis versa) > > that looks that they have mangled adress/data lines somewhat, nothing > > readably there.. > > Same on the 23-168E5.bin and 23-169E5.bin that appears to be on Olegs > > board. (see below) > > They're low-byte and high-byte of 16-bit words, so unless you merge > them, it will look a little odd :-) Yes, you are right. Don't know what's wrong with my own brain this time... > > > So I'm soldered an 18,432Mhz Xtal in (haven't found 18.00 in my > > stock jet) and at least the continous selftest from the ROMs is running > > flawlessly (~860 passes w/o Error). > > Map is displaying 18.429 MHz CPU Options: FPA. > > I did that to two of mine, but one had to be downgraded again because > although it ran OK on it's own, it gave mysterious errors with real > software on a real system. > > The design speed of the J11 was originally 20MHz, but it was a long time > (years) before DEC got any that would actually meet that spec under all > conditions. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York Yes I know, but not 20 Mhz, 5Mhz they really have. The russians made faster CPUs long time ago (K1801VM2 for example, runs at 10 (Clock 20) but has no MMU). Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed May 2 17:08:03 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 18:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201205022208.SAA12499@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...RS232...separate level shifter, at the least...] I don't know whether anything analogous is true of USB, but in RS-232 there is a spec that (to paraphrase) any pins or combinations of pins may be shorted to one another or any voltage source within a specified range (probably -25 to +25 or some such) indefinitely without harm. This sort of robustness is very nice to have in an external-world interface. > Not the ethernet I use.... All cables are srraight and have one > screen and one cetnre core. Heh. Well pointed out. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 2 17:36:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 18:36:19 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA1B6E3.5040704@neurotica.com> On 05/02/2012 02:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Is there no equivalent of a 'service request' in USB? (I;ve not read >>> the stnadard seriously)? >> >> Not as far as I've read the standard. "Speak only when spoken to" > > I see... And I though USB was supposed to be an improvement on what had > gone before... It's got an entirely different target application set. Sure it's "serial", but then so is Ethernet. (mostly) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed May 2 16:15:58 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 17:15:58 -0400 Subject: Pictures of an KDJ11-BF (was KDF) ?? In-Reply-To: <4FA0635E.3080103@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20120501140522.GC47694@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FA0635E.3080103@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4FA1A40E.3090502@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: >On 01/05/2012 15:05, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >>The M8190-AB should be an KDJ11-BB 11/73 CPU. I have an MSV11-JE (M8637-E) >>PMI Memory Card too and I'm wondering if I can use them thogether.. >> >Certainly. If you put it below the CPU, it will behave as normal QBus >memory, or if you put it above, it will work as PMI memory. > Your advice confirms my experience as well. The reasons that the PDP-11/83 is faster than the PDP-11/73 are due to the use of PMI memory and the 18 MHz crystal on the KDJ11-BF as opposed to the 15 MHz crystal on the KDJ11-BB. I did a few timing tests with all of the configurations. As expected, the 18 MHz crystal added very little to the extra speed - my experience was that less than 1/3 of the increased speed was due to the faster clock rate. Obviously, most of the increased speed was due to the use of PMI memory which, as Pete specified, is available with an ordinary KDJ11-BB in addition to the KDJ11-BF. >>What are the differences from the KDJ11-BB to the KDJ11-BF? Are there >>pictures to look at somwhere on the net? >> >The final letter denotes the board revision, unlike KDF11-B where it >denotes the firmware revision. Technically at least, it has nothing to >do with PMI capability; all KDJ11-B have that. Originally, the -BF >boards sold as 11/83 (etc) used PMI memory and were all 18MHz, while the >boards (mostly -BB and -BC) sold in 11/73 systems (non-PMI QBus memory) >were only 15MHz, but either flavour will work either way. Early 11/73 >boards won't work with an FPJ11 (-BB should be OK). > > As far as I remember, the firmware on the J11 chip had to be revised to support the use of the 18 MHz crystal along with the FPF11 chip. The original firmware on the J11 chip could handle the 15 MHz crystal, but not the 18 MHz crystal. While the so-called floating point bug on the original DEC KDJ11-BF was not as wide known as the Intel floating point bug on the early Pentiums, the internet was not as developed either. Can anyone else confirm this information? >You mentioned the EPROM numbers in a later post. 23-395E5 and 23-396E5 >aren't ones I'd heard of, though, but likely are merely later ones than >I knew of (or have copies of). I knew of V6.0, V7.0, and V8.0. Fancy >dumping the contents to a couple of files? > >See http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs for more. > Jerome Fine From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 2 18:16:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 16:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120502161612.P70331@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 2 May 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > I believe it was tried -- using 'Q' in place of 'K' and 'Z' in palce of > 'S', etc to try to screw up the letter frequencies. I don't think it > improved security much, there are too many other clues in breaking such > ciphers. what a L33T idea. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 2 18:36:03 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 16:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120502163507.O70331@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 2 May 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Firstly, USB _requires- a microcontroller really. It is a "micorcontroller to microcontroller" interface? Certainly NOT "universal" From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 2 18:44:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 16:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: ,<20120501140131.X30214@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120502163657.X70331@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 2 May 2012, dwight elvey wrote: > I never even try to do serial without a breakout box and lights. > Even that isn't always enough. I recall that Heathkit inverted one of > the handshake signals from what everyone else used. I once connected a Votrax unit to a TRS80 model II, at a RS "Computer Center" (their sale depended on it. The Votrax wanted a handshake signal on pin 12! So, I soldered one. As compensation, I got a Model II reference manual. I haven't seen it since I moved my business office 11 years ago. I hope that i gave it to somebody who is using it. I had three short notice moves in fairly rapid succession. What did Ben Franklin say about a fire? In a year, I need to move out of my office at the college. I'd better get started disposing of stuff. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 2 19:34:05 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 19:34:05 -0500 Subject: Ge workmaster (ibm 5155 rebrand) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: when it arives i will get photos of the inards the one i have is missing parts i tore it apart when i was 14 though it was allready half apart to begin with to build a custom portable desktop rig i never finished building :( still like to do that project some day if u wana send me the tech ref be cool also like to aquire the ibm version one day though ebay has them way over priced lol From pye at mactec.com.au Wed May 2 19:48:12 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 10:48:12 +1000 Subject: Wanted: Apple Keyboard Encoder MM5740AA/E Message-ID: <4A7A15D7-4565-42B0-870E-67D18F16543B@mactec.com.au> On May 2, 2012 at 11:18 AM Pete Rittwage wrote: >> Any interest in an module that replicates the /E functionality? >> >> (or, maybe there is already such a thing) >> >> Jim >> >> >> -- >> Jim Brain >> brain at jbrain.com >> www.jbrain.com >> > > Not quite yet. Mike Willegal has done pin mappings to use an AVR as a > drop-in replacement, but hasn't written any software yet. Would Vince Briel's Super Encoder do this function? http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?p=343 Chris From peter at rittwage.com Wed May 2 19:59:42 2012 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 20:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: Apple Keyboard Encoder MM5740AA/E In-Reply-To: <4A7A15D7-4565-42B0-870E-67D18F16543B@mactec.com.au> References: <4A7A15D7-4565-42B0-870E-67D18F16543B@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: <50842.24.214.18.38.1336006782.squirrel@rittwage.com> On Wed, May 2, 2012 8:48 pm, Chris Pye wrote: > > On May 2, 2012 at 11:18 AM Pete Rittwage wrote: > >>> Any interest in an module that replicates the /E functionality? >>> >>> (or, maybe there is already such a thing) >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Jim Brain >>> brain at jbrain.com >>> www.jbrain.com >>> >> >> Not quite yet. Mike Willegal has done pin mappings to use an AVR as a >> drop-in replacement, but hasn't written any software yet. > > > Would Vince Briel's Super Encoder do this function? > http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?p=343 > > > > Chris > No, that is for the newer style keyboard with a separate encoder board... Mine is the older one with no separate board. -Pete From brain at jbrain.com Wed May 2 20:01:17 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 02 May 2012 20:01:17 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Apple Keyboard Encoder MM5740AA/E In-Reply-To: <4A7A15D7-4565-42B0-870E-67D18F16543B@mactec.com.au> References: <4A7A15D7-4565-42B0-870E-67D18F16543B@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: <4FA1D8DD.50407@jbrain.com> On 5/2/2012 7:48 PM, Chris Pye wrote: > Would Vince Briel's Super Encoder do this function? http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?p=343 I thought something probably already existed. Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 2 23:21:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 00:21:29 -0400 Subject: VCF-East? Message-ID: <4FA207C9.6010101@neurotica.com> VCF-East is this weekend, and it's shaping up to be QUITE an event! Who's going? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed May 2 23:42:07 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 00:42:07 -0400 Subject: VCF-East? In-Reply-To: <4FA207C9.6010101@neurotica.com> References: <4FA207C9.6010101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7F03FBDB-A85C-4C10-8613-A559FCDDE942@gmail.com> On May 3, 2012, at 12:21 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > VCF-East is this weekend, and it's shaping up to be QUITE an event! > Who's going? I am! Looking forward to it! Don't know if I'll make both days, but I see quite a few people from this list in exhibits and sessions (including yours, which I'll try to see if I can get in from Philly early enough). - Dave From barythrin at yahoo.com Thu May 3 00:40:57 2012 From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 22:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <20120502091447.U59187@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1336023657.57283.YahooMailClassic@web161205.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 5/2/12, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > >>>> What > hewaters are > On Wed, 2 May 2012, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Probably What he wants are or What he wants is > > It was obviously > "What he waters" > but it was a little confusing because the discussion was > electricians, not > gardeners. I assumed he was talking about amps. From jonas at otter.se Thu May 3 07:02:41 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 14:02:41 +0200 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23941c3f4c2de95e5baa9aa97c031596@otter.se> Tony Duell wrote: > Well, I'd rather pay more for some good enegineering, like > differential > inputs and outputs (which will reduce common-mode noise signals for > good > engieerign reasons that I can understand) that pay for good-lated > fuses, > carpet groudnign clips, special mains cables, etc that have no > science or > engineering behind them. > Note that merely having differential inputs and outputs doesn't solve all problems, you have to know what to do with them as well: http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/balanced/balanced.htm (Douglas Self is or was the head designer at Soundcraft and is a well known writer on audio, he has written a lot in Wireless World/Electronics World) /Jonas From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 3 09:35:47 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 08:35:47 -0600 Subject: MicroSD: one good ripoff deserves another / Iomega Zip's In-Reply-To: <23941c3f4c2de95e5baa9aa97c031596@otter.se> References: <23941c3f4c2de95e5baa9aa97c031596@otter.se> Message-ID: <4FA297C3.4020702@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/3/2012 6:02 AM, jonas at otter.se wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: That implies you have a good audio source. I am still angry with the fact that with my view point, CD's are only about 10K bandwidth. Phase shift a 11K sine wave 45 degrees and what do you get? It is advertising lies and crappy media that has killed good audio. > /Jonas > Ben. Playing R2R tapes here. PS. No comment on crappy speakers, that go Boom and Tweet just made to sound good with solid state,often seen with computers . From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 3 09:45:16 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 10:45:16 -0400 Subject: OT: Re: Audiophilia In-Reply-To: <4FA00A06.22735.191CB50@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <1335910611.16393.18.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <4FA00A06.22735.191CB50@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FA299FC.2040809@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > When I had some logging slash to clean up, one of the neighbors > suggested gasoline as a starter. I poured about a gallon on the > pile, stepped back about 50 feet and tossed a lighted rag at the > pile. The sound was deafening and the explosion blew out any flame > that might have been started initially. That was the last time I > tried that. Diesel works so much better for that purpose. What about George Goble and his "lighting a barbecue with LOX trick"? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sab2Ltm1WcM Peace... Sridhar From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Thu May 3 10:08:02 2012 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 08:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF-East? In-Reply-To: <4FA207C9.6010101@neurotica.com> References: <4FA207C9.6010101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1336057682.64965.YahooMailNeo@web162902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ? VCF-East is this weekend, and it's shaping up to be QUITE an event! >Who's going? > I'm going!? Flying in from Dallas.? This will be the first VCF I have the privilege of attending.? I'm quite excited! Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 3 10:14:28 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 11:14:28 -0400 Subject: VCF-East? In-Reply-To: <4FA207C9.6010101@neurotica.com> References: <4FA207C9.6010101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?VCF-East is this weekend, and it's shaping up to be QUITE an event! > Who's going? I'll be there! -ethan From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu May 3 12:50:38 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 19:50:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Pertec hard disk Message-ID: Hi, I'm looking for information (cabling, jumper settings) for a Pertec 8" SMD drive, model DX332 (full model number: DX332-2-D-01). Christian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 3 13:25:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 19:25:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <75D7D2F1-E672-4590-B3F5-5EF03189DDB6@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at May 2, 12 04:54:46 pm Message-ID: > Well, it's a matter of modularity. I like compactness to a point, > especially if I'm trying to make something small. But if I want > reliability, I'll use separate USB and Ethernet PHYs. I haev never understood this love of making thigs as small as possible. OK, I don;t want a pocket calcualtor that actually takes up a 19" rack cabinet, but for soemthign that I don't have to carry about, I don't care if it's a half-rack-width thing, a 3U rack module, a 6U rack module. etc. In fact things that are too smal lare often difficult to use because the cotnrols are too close together. Iam not even going to mention repairing them.. In a differnet context, I much prefer the handling of a Nikon F camera over an Olympus OM series, for similar reasons. Things can be too small to handle easily. > > > [1] Although not always. The serial port in my HP9817 was defective when > > I got the machine and I found that not only were the buffers damaged, so > > was the 8250 serial chipe (yes, an 8250 in a 68K machine. Odd...). I am > > not sure what had happened to the machine. > > Odd indeed. Lots of 68K machines used 8350s, but that's a very > different chip. What's an 8350? Do you mean Z8530 (the serial chip used in older Macs), ro is this some other device I've not come across? The HP9000 serial ports (both built-in and on plug-in cards) did use 8250s -- the chip used in the IBM PC -- for some odd reason. Well, there was a nice microprocessor-controlled serail card that used a Z80A CPU and a Z80A_SIO serial chip, but then the serial chip wasn't on the 68K bus. The HP Integral used a 68000-family serial chip, the number of which I;'ve forgotten for the moment, but can trivially look up. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 3 13:33:56 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 19:33:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4FA1B6E3.5040704@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 2, 12 06:36:19 pm Message-ID: > > I see... And I though USB was supposed to be an improvement on what had > > gone before... > > It's got an entirely different target application set. Sure it's > "serial", but then so is Ethernet. (mostly) Why is it called 'universal'? It can't be because it's available on all computers -- I haev 200 examples to show that's false. And now it appers it's not becuase it's a universal interface, suitable for all types of peripherals (in that it misses out a feature that can be very useful). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 3 13:39:04 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 19:39:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <20120502163507.O70331@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 2, 12 04:36:03 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 2 May 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Firstly, USB _requires- a microcontroller really. > > It is a "micorcontroller to microcontroller" interface? > > > Certainly NOT "universal" So, it's not 'universal' by any reasonable definition. It _is_ serial. It is mopt definitely not a bus. I guess one word right out of 3 is OK these days :-( As I've said before, I don't the point of a 'one size fits all' interface. Differnt peripherals have different requirement,s itdoesnt' seem unreasonable that you plug them into different conenctors (in the same way that on an audio amplifier there are differnet input sockets for line-level signals (output of a radio tuner, tape recorder or CD player), microphone signals, pickup cartirdge signals, and so on. The thibg I reall find pointless, ocme to think of it are USB keyboards and mice. I think it is reasonable to assume that a modern PC is going to be connected to a keyboard and a mouse -- just one of each. So having a speciifc conenctor for each of them doesn't seem to be a big problem. Why over-complicate things? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 3 13:44:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 19:44:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <20120502163657.X70331@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 2, 12 04:44:13 pm Message-ID: > I once connected a Votrax unit to a TRS80 model II, at a RS "Computer > Center" (their sale depended on it. > The Votrax wanted a handshake signal on pin 12! So, I soldered one. An awflul lot of RS232-interfced printers put the ready signal on pin 11. Why I do not know, but I've made many cables that brign that to something more standard (like CTS). Nothing to do with RS232, but I once raparied a Model II or model 12 (I forget which) in a Tandy store using a _Model 1_ printer cable. The owner of the machine had broken off a pin on the header plug on the back that connected to the printer cable, and the salesdroid said nothing could be done, it would ahve to go to the service centre which would take a few weeks. Said owner urgently needed to print his accounts. I grabbed a screwdrier (litterally) and took the machine apart. I noticed that the ribbon cable from said header went to a 34 pin card edge on one of the PCBs, and that it looked to have the normal pinout. I therefore asked for a Model 1 printer cable and conencred it straight to the PCB. Fed it out through a gap i nthe case and the owner went away happy with a non-original machine that printed fine. I have no idea if it was ever repaired... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 3 13:46:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 19:46:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ge workmaster (ibm 5155 rebrand) In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at May 2, 12 07:34:05 pm Message-ID: > if u wana send me the tech ref be cool also like to aquire the ibm version > one day though ebay has them way over priced lol > There;'s no way I am parting with that TechRef, it's the same manual as for the XT (the 2 machines share a lot of parts, including the motherboard). ANd I have several XTs (and a 5155) to keep going. The O&A TechRef has the schemcatic for the 5155 internal monitor, whcih seems ot be a Zentih unit. I don;'t ahve scanner, so I can't scan things, but if you need any infromation that can be tpyed, I will see what I can do. -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu May 3 14:52:29 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 15:52:29 -0400 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48DAE3EB-7597-45B8-884C-0DFECF1D2A71@gmail.com> On May 3, 2012, at 2:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> [1] Although not always. The serial port in my HP9817 was defective when >>> I got the machine and I found that not only were the buffers damaged, so >>> was the 8250 serial chipe (yes, an 8250 in a 68K machine. Odd...). I am >>> not sure what had happened to the machine. >> >> Odd indeed. Lots of 68K machines used 8350s, but that's a very >> different chip. > > What's an 8350? Do you mean Z8530 (the serial chip used in older Macs), > ro is this some other device I've not come across? *sigh* Yes, that's what I meant. Brain fart resulting in transposition. - Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu May 3 17:06:13 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 23:06:13 +0100 Subject: DEC Professional 350 Fault Message-ID: <007201cd2978$f62003c0$e2600b40$@ntlworld.com> The DEC Pro 350 I got came without a monitor, cable or keyboard. When I power it up the diagnostic LEDs on the back all come on. The docs I have suggest this means a system board error. However, I am not sure if this is because there is no monitor or keyboard attached. Might this behaviour be expected if I don't have anything connected to the video connector? I tried connecting a terminal to the serial port just in case something happened there, but I don't see anything. Does the Pro 350 use the serial port as any kind of console port by any chance? I suspect not. I am trying to identify what cable I need. I think it is a BCC02, but if it is a colour machine it would be a BCC17, but I don't know how to tell if this is a colour machine or not. There also seems to be a BCC03 cable used on Rainbows, anyone know if that would work? Regards Rob From pye at mactec.com.au Thu May 3 17:47:11 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 08:47:11 +1000 Subject: DEC Professional 350 Fault In-Reply-To: <007201cd2978$f62003c0$e2600b40$@ntlworld.com> References: <007201cd2978$f62003c0$e2600b40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0BD82F83-586C-49A9-B3A5-A33ECC141A7C@mactec.com.au> On 04/05/2012, at 8:06 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I tried > connecting a terminal to the serial port just in case something happened > there, but I don't see anything. Does the Pro 350 use the serial port as any > kind of console port by any chance? I suspect not. Rob I believe that you can use the printer port as a console, just need to short two pins together.. There is some info here http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/pro380.txt Cheers, Chris From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu May 3 17:57:18 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 23:57:18 +0100 Subject: DEC Professional 350 Fault In-Reply-To: <0BD82F83-586C-49A9-B3A5-A33ECC141A7C@mactec.com.au> References: <007201cd2978$f62003c0$e2600b40$@ntlworld.com> <0BD82F83-586C-49A9-B3A5-A33ECC141A7C@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: <007b01cd2980$1909d580$4b1d8080$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Pye > Sent: 03 May 2012 23:47 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC Professional 350 Fault > > > On 04/05/2012, at 8:06 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > I tried > > connecting a terminal to the serial port just in case something > > happened there, but I don't see anything. Does the Pro 350 use the > > serial port as any kind of console port by any chance? I suspect not. > > Rob I believe that you can use the printer port as a console, just need to > short two pins together.. There is some info here > http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/pro380.txt > > Cheers, > Chris Ooh, thanks, I will try that. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu May 3 19:18:46 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 19:18:46 -0500 Subject: Ge workmaster (ibm 5155 rebrand) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: o ok no problem cheers On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > if u wana send me the tech ref be cool also like to aquire the ibm > version > > one day though ebay has them way over priced lol > > > There;'s no way I am parting with that TechRef, it's the same manual as > for the XT (the 2 machines share a lot of parts, including the > motherboard). ANd I have several XTs (and a 5155) to keep going. > > The O&A TechRef has the schemcatic for the 5155 internal monitor, whcih > seems ot be a Zentih unit. > > I don;'t ahve scanner, so I can't scan things, but if you need any > infromation that can be tpyed, I will see what I can do. > > -tony > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu May 3 20:19:21 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 21:19:21 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA32E99.9060400@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/05/12 2:39 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Wed, 2 May 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Firstly, USB _requires- a microcontroller really. >> >> It is a "micorcontroller to microcontroller" interface? >> >> >> Certainly NOT "universal" > > So, it's not 'universal' by any reasonable definition. It _is_ serial. It > is mopt definitely not a bus. I guess one word right out of 3 is OK these > days :-( > > As I've said before, I don't the point of a 'one size fits all' > interface. Differnt peripherals have different requirement,s itdoesnt' > seem unreasonable that you plug them into different conenctors (in the > same way that on an audio amplifier there are differnet input sockets for > line-level signals (output of a radio tuner, tape recorder or CD player), > microphone signals, pickup cartirdge signals, and so on. > > The thibg I reall find pointless, ocme to think of it are USB keyboards > and mice. I think it is reasonable to assume that a modern PC is going to > be connected to a keyboard and a mouse -- just one of each. So having a > speciifc conenctor for each of them doesn't seem to be a big problem. Why > over-complicate things? Because it's clearly simpler to have a single bus and lose the specialised connectors. Which PCs eventually did (long after Apple did). Additionally, isn't USB more electrically forgiving than PS/2? --Toby > > -tony > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 3 20:43:21 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 18:43:21 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4FA32E99.9060400@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4FA32E99.9060400@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4FA33439.9040904@brouhaha.com> OToby Thain wrote: > Because it's clearly simpler to have a single bus USB isn't a bus, it's a tree-topology network. Even if it was a bus, almost all PCs made in the last five years or more actually have more than one, rather than a single bus. > and lose the specialised connectors. USB uses specialized connectors. They were invented specifically for USB, and aren't used for anything else. (Or at least, they aren't *supposed* to be used for anything else.) PS/2 actually used connectors that were standardized well prior to their PS/2 adoption. So what actually happened was that we moved from common connectors for PS/2 to specialized connectors for USB. Despite that, the use of specialized connectors for USB is probably a win, as it somewhat reduces the incidence of clueless people plugging things into the wrong connectors. However, the original USB connectors were IMHO very poorly engineered. It appears to me that they were designed by people who were not experienced connector designers. I think the Mini and Micro connectors are better engineered. > Additionally, isn't USB more electrically forgiving than PS/2? Yes, although there's not really any reason that a newer hot-pluggable version of the AT/PS2 interface couldn't have been made. The connectors would only have to have been changed slightly, and the incremental cost would have been zero in the volumes that PCs are made. In practice, it seems like PS/2 interfaces were hot-pluggable in most cases. I've hot-plugged PS/2 devices many hundreds of times, with not a single failure, though I fully recognized the possibility of failure (of either the device or the PC), and was willing to deal with the consequences. I never recommended the practice to anyone else, because then it would have been my responsibility if they damages something by doing so. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 3 20:51:02 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 18:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4FA32E99.9060400@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4FA32E99.9060400@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120503184602.D12282@shell.lmi.net> > On 03/05/12 2:39 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> Firstly, USB _requires- a microcontroller really. On Thu, 3 May 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > Because it's clearly simpler to have a single bus and lose the Are you SURE that you want to call it a "BUS"??!? > specialised connectors. Which PCs eventually did (long after Apple did). Knowing the difference between a keyboard and a mouse was stretching the limits? They had different shaped connectors. They color coded them! Eventually, they just gave up and added an extrea microcontroller for each, just so that people didn't have to insert the plugs into the jacks that fit. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 3 20:57:19 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 18:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4FA33439.9040904@brouhaha.com> References: <4FA32E99.9060400@telegraphics.com.au> <4FA33439.9040904@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120503185203.X12282@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 3 May 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > USB uses specialized connectors. They were invented specifically for > USB, and aren't used for anything else. (Or at least, they aren't > *supposed* to be used for anything else.) And, are therefore now the defacto standard for charger connectors! With what sort of amperage limits? 'course now maybe I can get rid of a few totes full of wall-warts, with hundreds of different coaxial barrel connectors. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu May 3 21:15:16 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 03 May 2012 22:15:16 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <20120503184602.D12282@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FA32E99.9060400@telegraphics.com.au> <20120503184602.D12282@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FA33BB4.1040303@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/05/12 9:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On 03/05/12 2:39 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>>> Firstly, USB _requires- a microcontroller really. > On Thu, 3 May 2012, Toby Thain wrote: >> Because it's clearly simpler to have a single bus and lose the > > Are you SURE that you want to call it a "BUS"??!? > I can count on you EEs to not let anyone get away with it. >> specialised connectors. Which PCs eventually did (long after Apple did). > > Knowing the difference between a keyboard and a mouse was stretching the > limits? That's one of the minor issues. But the main point is that PS/2 was specialised anyway - can only deal with a narrow set of devices, and is fickle about those, while USB lets you connect virtually anything (handwaves details) so the potential exists to reduce the number and diversity of sockets. That's my opinion, anyway :) --Toby > > They had different shaped connectors. They color coded them! > Eventually, they just gave up and added an extrea microcontroller for > each, just so that people didn't have to insert the plugs into the jacks > that fit. > > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 3 21:44:14 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 19:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seattle jabber Message-ID: I was wondering if there's anyone in Seattle who wants to meet up and talk about random stuff. I'm up here from Bakersfield for an interview. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu May 3 22:10:33 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 23:10:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <4FA33BB4.1040303@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4FA32E99.9060400@telegraphics.com.au> <20120503184602.D12282@shell.lmi.net> <4FA33BB4.1040303@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201205040310.XAA04522@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...], while USB lets you connect virtually anything (handwaves > details) Provided it has, or can have, substantial intelligence and fairly-high-speed interfaces built in (high speed compared to, say, serial, at any rate). Provided it doesn't need to initiate sends to the host, or is non-real-time enough, and the host is sufficiently overmuscled to have spare cycles enough, that making the host poll is acceptable. Probably provided a few other things, too, which I might know if I knew USB better. > so the potential exists to reduce the number and diversity of > sockets. True. Not worth the costs in my opinion, not for most applications at any rate. (Not that I have any evidence anyone cares about my opinion.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 3 22:13:51 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 20:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seattle jabber In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2012, David Griffith wrote: > > I was wondering if there's anyone in Seattle who wants to meet up and talk > about random stuff. I'm up here from Bakersfield for an interview. I can't make it up there, but you need to check out the Re-PC store in Seattle. They have a very nice mini-museum in there. The address is 1565 6th Avenue, Seattle 98134. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu May 3 22:31:45 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 23:31:45 -0400 Subject: seattle jabber In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 3, 2012, at 22:44, David Griffith wrote: > I was wondering if there's anyone in Seattle who wants to meet up and talk about random stuff. I'm up here from Bakersfield for an interview. Maybe this isn't an appropriate topic, in which case I apologize and you can tell me to bugger off, but does the mass exodus of professors/lecturers have something to do with this? http://m.npr.org/news/front/151870548 Just a question from the terminally curious. - Dave From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 3 22:45:08 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 20:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seattle jabber In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2012, David Riley wrote: > On May 3, 2012, at 22:44, David Griffith wrote: > >> I was wondering if there's anyone in Seattle who wants to meet up and >> talk about random stuff. I'm up here from Bakersfield for an >> interview. > > Maybe this isn't an appropriate topic, in which case I apologize and you > can tell me to bugger off, but does the mass exodus of > professors/lecturers have something to do with this? > > http://m.npr.org/news/front/151870548 > > Just a question from the terminally curious. I'm just an alumnus looking for work because there's almost nothing in Bakersfield for a computer scientist that pays decently. I suppose I could be a professor, but I've yet to start a PhD program. About the CSU system, I do know that the faculty has been pissed off for years at the chancellor's office for doing stupid things, cutting pay while giving huge raises to the presidents, skyrocketing fees, and cutbacks on classes. I'm not aware of any sort of exodus yet. The article mentions rolling strikes. I'm not surprised at either. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From arkaxow at gmail.com Fri May 4 00:45:05 2012 From: arkaxow at gmail.com (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 01:45:05 -0400 Subject: VCF-East? In-Reply-To: <4FA207C9.6010101@neurotica.com> References: <4FA207C9.6010101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <11B1DE8918A84FE0A8FFE7D4CA46E703@ArkCompNew> From: Dave McGuire Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:21 AM > VCF-East is this weekend, and it's shaping up to be QUITE an event! >Who's going? I'm going *and* exhibiting ! It will be the best VCF ever ! There will be all those great lecturers, workshops, exhibits, etc ! And I get to learn how to troubleshoot and repair my C64 ! Super great weekend ahead ! Jeff Brace From microcode at zoho.com Fri May 4 01:05:07 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 06:05:07 +0000 Subject: VCF-East? In-Reply-To: <11B1DE8918A84FE0A8FFE7D4CA46E703@ArkCompNew> References: <4FA207C9.6010101@neurotica.com> <11B1DE8918A84FE0A8FFE7D4CA46E703@ArkCompNew> Message-ID: <1410582398-1336111465-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1289267607-@b1.c1.bise3.blackberry> Somebody please make a picture gallery for those of us in faraway places. -----Original Message----- From: "Jeffrey Brace" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 01:45:05 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: VCF-East? From: Dave McGuire Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:21 AM > VCF-East is this weekend, and it's shaping up to be QUITE an event! >Who's going? I'm going *and* exhibiting ! It will be the best VCF ever ! There will be all those great lecturers, workshops, exhibits, etc ! And I get to learn how to troubleshoot and repair my C64 ! Super great weekend ahead ! Jeff Brace From IanK at vulcan.com Fri May 4 10:49:49 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 15:49:49 +0000 Subject: seattle jabber In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/3/12 7:44 PM, "David Griffith" wrote: > >I was wondering if there's anyone in Seattle who wants to meet up and >talk >about random stuff. I'm up here from Bakersfield for an interview. > >-- >David Griffith >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > >A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > How long will you be here? -- Ian From david at classiccomputing.com Fri May 4 12:29:00 2012 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 13:29:00 -0400 Subject: VCF-East? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16EF7066-6A72-4024-8263-C8926351DCC8@classiccomputing.com> >> VCF-East is this weekend, and it's shaping up to be QUITE an event! >> Who's going? > > I'm going *and* exhibiting ! It will be the best VCF ever ! There will be > all those great lecturers, workshops, exhibits, etc ! And I get to learn how > to troubleshoot and repair my C64 ! Super great weekend ahead ! Grumble, grumble, snarl . . . get off of my lawn! ; ) Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian President, Atlanta Historical Computing Society - Author, "The Complete Historically Brewed" - "Classic Computing Show" podcast - "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast - "Retro Computing Roundtable" podcast - "Not Another Apple Podcast" ClassicComputing.com | atlhcs.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 4 13:04:29 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 11:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <201205040310.XAA04522@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4FA32E99.9060400@telegraphics.com.au> <20120503184602.D12282@shell.lmi.net> <4FA33BB4.1040303@telegraphics.com.au> <201205040310.XAA04522@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120504105344.W32916@shell.lmi.net> Addition of literally DOZENS of microcontrollers, and slower response, for the SOLE PURPOSE of making some peripheral ports for different kinds of devices interchangeable with each other, for the sole purpose of not having to plug the cords into the correct ports (only fit one way, AND are color coded) How many here spent HOURS trying to plug the DB25 printer cable into the mini-DIN keyboard port? Why have square pegs AND round pegs, when we could just spend a bit more and make EVERY peg the same, disunirregardless of what it is for? So, howcome I still have to know which cords are power, video, headphones, microphone, and network? Whythehell didn't they make THOSE all the same, too??!? From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 4 13:25:59 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 11:25:59 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <20120504105344.W32916@shell.lmi.net> References: , <201205040310.XAA04522@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <20120504105344.W32916@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FA3BCC7.14740.4D68D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2012 at 11:04, Fred Cisin wrote: > So, howcome I still have to know which cords are power, video, > headphones, microphone, and network? Whythehell didn't they make > THOSE all the same, too??!? Nothing that can't be easily solved with a hammer and a little elbow- grease. If you break one, there's always duct tape. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 4 14:06:00 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 20:06:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Professional 350 Fault In-Reply-To: <007201cd2978$f62003c0$e2600b40$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 3, 12 11:06:13 pm Message-ID: > > The DEC Pro 350 I got came without a monitor, cable or keyboard. When I > power it up the diagnostic LEDs on the back all come on. The docs I have > suggest this means a system board error. However, I am not sure if this is > because there is no monitor or keyboard attached. Might this behaviour be > expected if I don't have anything connected to the video connector? I tried It won't mind that there;s no monitor, it will give an error if it can't find the keybaord, but it'll get a lot further than 'all lights on'. In fact I am not even sure that a keyboard error does show up on the diagnostic lights. The power-on reset signal turns all the lights on. One of the first things the CPU does is to turn at least one of htem off. So if they're all on then most likely rither the CPU isn't running at all (or at least isn't runnign the bootstrap at all), or the thing is being held in the reset state. I suspect that the reset signal is generateed from some kind of power-OK signal so that if there's a power rail out-of-spec it'll stick in the reset state. What I can't rememebr if is fhtat signal originates in the PSU or not. There is a Technical manual for either the Pro350 or 380 on Bitsavers and a printset for the other one. The 2 machines are quite different but I think the PSU connector is the same, so you can start there.... > connecting a terminal to the serial port just in case something happened > there, but I don't see anything. Does the Pro 350 use the serial port as any > kind of console port by any chance? I suspect not. > > I am trying to identify what cable I need. I think it is a BCC02, but if it > is a colour machine it would be a BCC17, but I don't know how to tell if > this is a colour machine or not. There also seems to be a BCC03 cable used > on Rainbows, anyone know if that would work? > A colour 350 has 2 boards for video in the cardcage with a little ribbon cable linking them across the top. If you have such a cable, thrn the colour board is fitted. I am not sure the exact details of all the cables, but the Pro and Rainbow video conenctors do haev diffenreces in terms of which signal is used. The conenctor is a DA15, there are 4 pins fot hte keyboard, a 12V power lien for the mono monitor and 4 video signals, R,G,B and mono. I would look at both mono and green to see if there's anythign resembling a video signal on either. Or just try a composite (RS170 rate) monitor on mono and green in turn. You won't damage anything. Do you have my notes on the universal video cable for the DEC desktops? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 4 14:19:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 20:19:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA32E99.9060400@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at May 3, 12 09:19:21 pm Message-ID: > Because it's clearly simpler to have a single bus and lose the > specialised connectors. Which PCs eventually did (long after Apple did). Firslty whatever USB is, it is certainly not a bus. Secondly, how is it simpler? It certainly makes the electronics a lot more complicated (USB being a more complex protocol than the one for a PS/2 keybord or mouse). And I don;t think it makes things much simpler for the user. After all, there are specific conenctors for the mains input and the video output (VGA or DVI or whatever), why is a specific connector for the keyboard so complciated? > Additionally, isn't USB more electrically forgiving than PS/2? Probalgy, in that it is desiged for hot-swapping (FWIW I've hot-swapped PS/2 keyboards nad mice with no problems, but it's not to be recomended). But there are poleny of other interfaces that allow hot-swapping too that could have been used. Anyway, how often dow the average user want to swap a keyboard or mouse? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 4 14:28:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 20:28:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120503184602.D12282@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 3, 12 06:51:02 pm Message-ID: > > specialised connectors. Which PCs eventually did (long after Apple did). > > Knowing the difference between a keyboard and a mouse was stretching the > limits? I haev to agree with you. Somebody who can't plug the cable from a thing with keys on it into a socket marked 'keyboard' (or with a little picture of a keyboard nest to it) probably shouldn't own a computer :-) > They had different shaped connectors. They color coded them! I thought the PS/2 keyboard and mouse connectors were the same (6 pin mini-DIN). They also have essentially the same pinout, so nothing will be damaged if you plug the keybboard into the mouse connector of vice versa. On older machines it won't work if you do that, you'll get POST erross because it can't find the keyboard. How difficult is it to say (either in the error message or in the manual [1]) 'Check that the keyboard is not plugged into the mouse port? [1] Yes, OK, nothign these days comes with a manual... And how often are people going to be plugging/unplugging these things anyway. I don't maean people like me who are always hackign about with hardware, I mean most PC users? > Eventually, they just gave up and added an extrea microcontroller for > each, just so that people didn't have to insert the plugs into the jacks > that fit. Actually, it;s just a little more code in the keyboard/mouse interface microcotnrolelr. The protocols are essentially the same, all the thing has to do is see whateach device identifies itself as and then route the data accordingly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 4 14:36:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 20:36:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120503185203.X12282@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 3, 12 06:57:19 pm Message-ID: > And, are therefore now the defacto standard for charger connectors! > With what sort of amperage limits? 'Pound shops' over here sometimes sell an in-car USB charger, it plugs into the cigar lighter socket (12V DC input) and gives out 5V at either 500mA or 1A depending on which version they have in stock. They're actually quite nice little swithcing regulators (IC + inductor + flyback diode + a few passibes), I certainly couldn't get the bits for a pound. I've even desoldered the ICs from them as it's cheaper than the 1-off price of the IC. Go figure... > > 'course now maybe I can get rid of a few totes full of wall-warts, with > hundreds of different coaxial barrel connectors. I haev one of those boxes fo 16 different power conenctor tips (mostly the coaxial barrel types, but also 2.5mm and 3.5mm jack (phone) plugs) and a cable with a socket to take those on one end and 4mm plugs on the other. Used with my bench supply, it's very useful for powering all sorts of devices... One thign that IMHO USB did get right was to haev a power line on the interface conenctor. Many times with other interfaces I've needed to invert a sgnal line, or do a little bit of logic on them, or something and don't want to have an external PSU. HP ggot that right on the HP9000/200 series RS232 ports (and on some HP temrinals, etc). Those ports are acutally on a 50 pin Microribbon connector (!). not only ar pins assigned for both RS232 and RS422 signals (although not all units implemented the latter), there are also +5V, +12V and -12V power pins. Very useful... I modified my HP82165 HPIL-GPIO (parallel) interfces to have a 2.5mm jack socket connefted to 5V lien and ground. It's enough to power a few TTL ICs if I need to ness about with the handshake lines or invert the data lines or something. Saves carting the bench supply around... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 4 14:38:22 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 20:38:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA33BB4.1040303@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at May 3, 12 10:15:16 pm Message-ID: > That's one of the minor issues. But the main point is that PS/2 was > specialised anyway - can only deal with a narrow set of devices, and is > fickle about those, while USB lets you connect virtually anything > (handwaves details) so the potential exists to reduce the number and > diversity of sockets. That's my opinion, anyway :) > And why is this a Good Thing? My point is that it's to be exptected that a modern PC will have a keyboard and mouse connected to it. Why does it make any difference to the used if those can be connected to 2 of the USB ports or to 2 specific connectors for them? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 4 16:10:41 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 14:10:41 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: <20120503185203.X12282@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 3, 12 06:57:19 pm, Message-ID: <4FA3E361.28401.E4336F@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2012 at 20:36, Tony Duell wrote: > One thign that IMHO USB did get right was to haev a power line on the > interface conenctor. Many times with other interfaces I've needed to > invert a sgnal line, or do a little bit of logic on them, or something > and don't want to have an external PSU. Well, ethernet (PoE) is going that way, but in a bigger sense (ca. 44V at 350 ma.). Most modern PCs will continue to supply power to the USB connectors even when "off" (soft "off"), so mobile devices can be charged even when the system isn't being used. And USB as a cheap source of power makes all of those really cool devices--shavers, foot warmers, fans, etc. possible. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 4 16:25:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 14:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA3E361.28401.E4336F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120503185203.X12282@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 3, 12 06:57:19 pm, <4FA3E361.28401.E4336F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120504142422.A41503@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 May 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > And USB as a cheap source of power makes all of those really cool > devices--shavers, foot warmers, fans, etc. possible. Although totally unnecessary for printers, keyboards, mice, etc., USB is the system of choice for really cool devices--shavers, foot warmers, fans, humping dogs, toy pole dancers, reading lights, etc. Thanks to USB, I can have an EXTERNAL 32X cup-holder! From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri May 4 17:23:01 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 15:23:01 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA456C5.1050606@mail.msu.edu> On 5/4/2012 12:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Because it's clearly simpler to have a single bus and lose the >> specialised connectors. Which PCs eventually did (long after Apple did). > Firslty whatever USB is, it is certainly not a bus. > > Secondly, how is it simpler? It certainly makes the electronics a lot > more complicated (USB being a more complex protocol than the one for a > PS/2 keybord or mouse). And I don;t think it makes things much simpler > for the user. After all, there are specific conenctors for the mains > input and the video output (VGA or DVI or whatever), why is a specific > connector for the keyboard so complciated? I have a device on my desk here that's the size of a small paperback book; it's a subnotebook computer. I can connect keyboards, mice, scanners, printers, serial ports, parallel & scsi ports, cameras, calculators, phones, GPIB interfaces, external sound, video capture, hard drives, usb memory sticks, card readers and dozens of other things that I'm not able to bring to mind in the 20 seconds it took me to type that -- all to one of the pair of USB ports on the side. (No, not all at the same time, smartass :)). If this device had a specialized connector for each (or even most) of these it'd be completely covered in them and probably weigh 30 pounds :). This is the advantage of USB for modern computing. No, it's not suitable for a "classic" computer, but that's not the point and it's not why it was designed. (And at the same time, this entire, drawn-out thread isn't really suitable for "classic" computing either.) Is it a perfect standard? Nope. Does it do everything perfectly? Nope. Does it have a name that doesn't technically describe what it is/does that was probably chosen by a marketing department somewhere at Intel? Sure does. Is it well established, and does it work decently well for the purposes for which it was designed? Generally, yes. Does Tony have to like it? No :). - Josh From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri May 4 18:21:10 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 19:21:10 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA46466.2000003@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/05/12 3:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> specialised connectors. Which PCs eventually did (long after Apple did). >> >> Knowing the difference between a keyboard and a mouse was stretching the >> limits? > > I haev to agree with you. Somebody who can't plug the cable from a thing > with keys on it into a socket marked 'keyboard' (or with a little picture > of a keyboard nest to it) probably shouldn't own a computer :-) > They have the SAME connector, so from a usability pov it invites mistakes. Sometimes, even non-technical people use computers. I've noticed that they often don't identify sockets before attempting plugs. And proliferating physically incompatible connectors seems to make less sense than simply standardising a simple interface. > >> They had different shaped connectors. They color coded them! > > I thought the PS/2 keyboard and mouse connectors were the same (6 pin > mini-DIN). They also have essentially the same pinout, so nothing will be > damaged if you plug the keybboard into the mouse connector of vice > versa. >... Even if the computer doesn't blow up, it means a lot of pointless calls to help desk or "my son who knows about computers". And that problem gets bigger with increasing permutations of devices. --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri May 4 18:23:15 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 19:23:15 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/05/12 3:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> That's one of the minor issues. But the main point is that PS/2 was >> specialised anyway - can only deal with a narrow set of devices, and is >> fickle about those, while USB lets you connect virtually anything >> (handwaves details) so the potential exists to reduce the number and >> diversity of sockets. That's my opinion, anyway :) >> > > And why is this a Good Thing? My point is that it's to be exptected that > a modern PC will have a keyboard and mouse connected to it. Why does it > make any difference to the used if those can be connected to 2 of the USB > ports or to 2 specific connectors for them? You've already asked that. NOW imagine that a whole bunch of unforeseen devices - printers, cameras, touch sensitive tablets, disks, modems, e-book readers, 'pen' drives, portable audio players, ... - arrives. Are they meant to use PS/2? Are they supposed to have individual connectors? USB is no more a silly idea than RS-232 is. --Toby > > -tony > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri May 4 18:24:16 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 19:24:16 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA456C5.1050606@mail.msu.edu> References: <4FA456C5.1050606@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4FA46520.1040200@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/05/12 6:23 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > ... > I have a device on my desk here that's the size of a small paperback > book; it's a subnotebook computer. I can connect keyboards, mice, > scanners, printers, serial ports, parallel & scsi ports, cameras, > calculators, phones, GPIB interfaces, external sound, video capture, > hard drives, usb memory sticks, card readers and dozens of other things Thanks, I got bored before I managed to list so many, and this is still only scratching the surface. --Toby > that I'm not able to bring to mind in the 20 seconds it took me to type > that -- all to one of the pair of USB ports on the side. ... > - Josh > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 4 18:39:17 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 16:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA46466.2000003@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4FA46466.2000003@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120504162956.L41503@shell.lmi.net> > > I haev to agree with you. Somebody who can't plug the cable from a thing > > with keys on it into a socket marked 'keyboard' (or with a little picture > > of a keyboard nest to it) probably shouldn't own a computer :-) On Fri, 4 May 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > They have the SAME connector, Well, YOUR PS/2 ones might. My keyboard had the same connector as the cassette. Which one of my machines had that same connector for the video, POWER!! and cassette? THAT was a bad move! > so from a usability pov it invites > mistakes. Sometimes, even non-technical people use computers. I've > noticed that they often don't identify sockets before attempting plugs. Yes, I've seen people try to FORCE a 7 pin DIN into a 5 pin DIN - "square peg into round hole"? > And proliferating physically incompatible connectors seems to make less > sense than simply standardising a simple interface. "easier to add entire additional microcontrollers to each (that didn't previously need them) than to try to get people to only plug them in where they fit" Serial mouse, printer, keyboard, video shouldn't have posed any problems. Although I do rmember a VERY short period of time when MICROS~1 peddled a "BUS" mouse that used a female DE9 on its interface board! How long should it take a "college instructor" to destroy the connectors on a PC/JR? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 4 18:47:20 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 16:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seattle jabber In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 May 2012, Ian King wrote: > On 5/3/12 7:44 PM, "David Griffith" wrote: > >> >> I was wondering if there's anyone in Seattle who wants to meet up and >> talk >> about random stuff. I'm up here from Bakersfield for an interview. > > How long will you be here? -- Ian I'm leaving at 11am Saturday. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 4 18:47:52 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 16:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> > > And why is this a Good Thing? My point is that it's to be exptected that > > a modern PC will have a keyboard and mouse connected to it. Why does it > > make any difference to the used if those can be connected to 2 of the USB > > ports or to 2 specific connectors for them? On Fri, 4 May 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > You've already asked that. and it has yet to be ANSWERED. > NOW imagine that a whole bunch of unforeseen devices - printers, > cameras, touch sensitive tablets, disks, modems, e-book readers, 'pen' > drives, portable audio players, ... - arrives. Are they meant to use > PS/2? Are they supposed to have individual connectors? USB is no more a > silly idea than RS-232 is. I had numerous devices, including printers, cameras, mice, and modems connected to my serial ports. I had numerous devices, including printers, disk drives, SCSI adapters, inter-computer communications, and EPROM programmer ("Sunshine") connected to my parallel ports. I still don't fully grasp the magnitude of the "problem" that the "solution" addressed. Although I will acknowledge that the USB designers did adequately address some of the "proliferation of standards" issues in RS232 cabling. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 4 18:51:32 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 16:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA46520.1040200@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4FA456C5.1050606@mail.msu.edu> <4FA46520.1040200@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120504164845.O41503@shell.lmi.net> > > I have a device on my desk here that's the size of a small paperback > > book; it's a subnotebook computer. I can connect keyboards, mice, > > scanners, printers, serial ports, parallel & scsi ports, cameras, > > calculators, phones, GPIB interfaces, external sound, video capture, > > hard drives, usb memory sticks, card readers and dozens of other things > Thanks, I got bored before I managed to list so many, and this is still > only scratching the surface. But y'all left out the humping dog, pole dancer, fan, book light, and coffee warmer. USB is faster, and slightly better cable standardization than RS232. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 4 19:29:29 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 18:29:29 -0600 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120504164845.O41503@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FA456C5.1050606@mail.msu.edu> <4FA46520.1040200@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164845.O41503@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FA47469.1070207@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/4/2012 5:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > USB is faster, and slightly better cable standardization than RS232. > But only if the product is at arms length away, and you have the crummy keyboards and mice.* I still find it a pain to add having to add a USB extender to I can fit things on the computer rear. I feel usb ports on the front of the computer is good for usb media. Ben. * I have a IBM keyboard hooked up, but not sure if the adapter is PS/2 or USB. BTW since usb is dirt cheap now, I wonder what marketing is planning to make it all outdated,and be able to sell $90 cables again. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri May 4 19:38:14 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 20:38:14 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120504164845.O41503@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FA456C5.1050606@mail.msu.edu> <4FA46520.1040200@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164845.O41503@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FA47676.50601@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/05/12 7:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I have a device on my desk here that's the size of a small paperback >>> book; it's a subnotebook computer. I can connect keyboards, mice, >>> scanners, printers, serial ports, parallel& scsi ports, cameras, >>> calculators, phones, GPIB interfaces, external sound, video capture, >>> hard drives, usb memory sticks, card readers and dozens of other things >> Thanks, I got bored before I managed to list so many, and this is still >> only scratching the surface. > > But y'all left out the humping dog, pole dancer, fan, book light, and > coffee warmer. > > USB is faster, and slightly better cable standardization than RS232. > I'm not saying anything other than that. And it *even* works for keyboards and mice, obviating the legacy connectors. (I am sure PC laptop makers were happy about that.) --T From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 4 20:41:18 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 18:41:18 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA47469.1070207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <20120504164845.O41503@shell.lmi.net>, <4FA47469.1070207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4FA422CE.5189.1DBF640@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2012 at 18:29, ben wrote: >. BTW since usb is dirt cheap now, I wonder what marketing is > planning to make it all outdated,and be able to sell $90 cables again. That's easy--go shopping for one at Office Depot. --Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sat May 5 01:17:58 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 08:17:58 +0200 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: <4FA33BB4.1040303@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > And why is this a Good Thing? My point is that it's to be exptected that > a modern PC will have a keyboard and mouse connected to it. Why does it > make any difference to the used if those can be connected to 2 of the USB > ports or to 2 specific connectors for them? My keyboard/mouse are connected using a _different_ universal interface: bluetooth. This frees up two USB ports for other things. In fact, It's quite possible to have a PC these days with nothing but USB connectors (and power, I guess). Video is typically not done for speed reasons, but you can buy USB video adapters. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From jfoust at threedee.com Sat May 5 08:00:20 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 08:00:20 -0500 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA46466.2000003@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4FA46466.2000003@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201205051301.q45D1fPl086564@billy.ezwind.net> At 06:21 PM 5/4/2012, Toby Thain wrote: >They have the SAME connector, so from a usability pov it invites mistakes. Sometimes, even non-technical people use computers. I've noticed that they often don't identify sockets before attempting plugs. It also gave manufacturers the FREEDOM to choose which colors they used to mark THEIR brand of keyboard and mouse to the colors on the faceplate on the dark side of the computer, and the keying just made it an exciting challenge, which adds to the computing experience. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Sat May 5 07:37:02 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 07:37:02 -0500 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <4FA1B6E3.5040704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201205051301.q45D1fRs086563@billy.ezwind.net> At 01:33 PM 5/3/2012, Tony Duell wrote: >Why is it called 'universal'? It can't be because it's available on all >computers -- I haev 200 examples to show that's false. And now it appers >it's not becuase it's a universal interface, suitable for all types of >peripherals (in that it misses out a feature that can be very useful). Yeah, that's exactly what I've always thought was wrong with USB. Why can't it travel backwards in time? - John From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat May 5 08:59:18 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 09:59:18 -0400 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <4F9E7BA9.328.96E574@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F9E7BA9.328.96E574@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <611F389D-1264-41A4-88E4-8F4EF1D2F327@gmail.com> On Apr 30, 2012, at 2:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Motorola also offered a bubble-pack of assorted milliwatt RTL TO-100 > devices as part of their experimenter's kit line. (Fat chance of > that ever happening again!). The little booklet that came with it > was interesting in that perhaps as many linear applications were > described as digital ones. That's pretty neat! The 74HCU04 datasheet (the Philips/NXP one, anyway) has an application circuit for it as a "poor man's amp", running it as an inverting amplifier. The original Nintendo actually used this as its mixer/line amp stage for the sound output: http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=8506 - Dave From als at thangorodrim.de Sat May 5 09:21:10 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 16:21:10 +0200 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 04:47:52PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > And why is this a Good Thing? My point is that it's to be exptected that > > > a modern PC will have a keyboard and mouse connected to it. Why does it > > > make any difference to the used if those can be connected to 2 of the USB > > > ports or to 2 specific connectors for them? > On Fri, 4 May 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > > You've already asked that. > > and it has yet to be ANSWERED. > > > NOW imagine that a whole bunch of unforeseen devices - printers, > > cameras, touch sensitive tablets, disks, modems, e-book readers, 'pen' > > drives, portable audio players, ... - arrives. Are they meant to use > > PS/2? Are they supposed to have individual connectors? USB is no more a > > silly idea than RS-232 is. > > I had numerous devices, including printers, cameras, mice, and modems > connected to my serial ports. > I had numerous devices, including printers, disk drives, SCSI adapters, > inter-computer communications, and EPROM programmer ("Sunshine") connected > to my parallel ports. > I still don't fully grasp the magnitude of the "problem" that the > "solution" addressed. One standard (the "universal" part in UBS) protocol - and cabling setup - for a lots of things. Mass storage (from USB sticks to memory card readers to harddisks), serial interfaces (the CuBox is recently aquired has Micro- USB for the console connection), media interfaces like sound and video (video cameras, TV sticks). Even phones (Android Debug Bridge runs over USB as well). And if you run out of ports, just stick on an USB hub (of course, there are still bandwidth limits). > Although I will acknowledge that the USB designers did adequately address > some of the "proliferation of standards" issues in RS232 cabling. Also, just three + one very different connectors: standard, mini and micro plus the host connector. And these days, USB also helps clean up the mobile phone charger mess: an increasing number of new phones just use USB with a micro USB connector instead of every phone needing its very own wallwart with a very special connector. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat May 5 10:41:18 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 11:41:18 -0400 Subject: USB retrofit unavailable for Babbage Difference Engine - Re: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: <201205051301.q45D1fRs086563@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4FA1B6E3.5040704@neurotica.com> <201205051301.q45D1fRs086563@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4FA54A1E.7020808@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/05/12 8:37 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 01:33 PM 5/3/2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> Why is it called 'universal'? It can't be because it's available on all >> computers -- I haev 200 examples to show that's false. And now it appers >> it's not becuase it's a universal interface, suitable for all types of >> peripherals (in that it misses out a feature that can be very useful). > > Yeah, that's exactly what I've always thought was wrong with USB. > Why can't it travel backwards in time? An awful limitation! But RS-232 has a similar problem. We have memos from 1950 complaining about it! --Toby > > - John > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat May 5 10:56:35 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 11:56:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > And these days, USB also helps clean up the mobile phone charger > mess: an increasing number of new phones just use USB with a micro > USB connector instead of every phone needing its very own wallwart > with a very special connector. The connector is not all there is to it. I recently ran into a device (not a phone, but it wouldn't surprise me if phones did the same thing) that, if you plug in the wrong charger, even though the connector is correct, displays a snarky message about how you have to use the charger and cable that came with the device, and refuses to charge. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sat May 5 11:37:59 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 18:37:59 +0200 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 4:21 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > And these days, USB also helps clean up the mobile phone charger mess: > an increasing number of new phones just use USB with a micro USB connector > instead of every phone needing its very own wallwart with a very special > connector. IIRC, that is actually mandated by law in some countries now, notably China. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From als at thangorodrim.de Sat May 5 11:39:44 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 18:39:44 +0200 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120505163944.GC9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, May 05, 2012 at 11:56:35AM -0400, Mouse wrote: > > And these days, USB also helps clean up the mobile phone charger > > mess: an increasing number of new phones just use USB with a micro > > USB connector instead of every phone needing its very own wallwart > > with a very special connector. > > The connector is not all there is to it. I recently ran into a device > (not a phone, but it wouldn't surprise me if phones did the same thing) > that, if you plug in the wrong charger, even though the connector is > correct, displays a snarky message about how you have to use the > charger and cable that came with the device, and refuses to charge. That is someone playing silly games. If you remember, name & shame please (manufacturer & device) because this nonsense deserves being blacklisted. The whole damn _point_ of switching to micro USB as the charging connector is to get rid of the custom chargers and be able to use generic ones ... Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 5 12:26:23 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 10:26:23 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4FA562BF.8060507@brouhaha.com> Mouse wrote: > The connector is not all there is to it. I recently ran into a device > (not a phone, but it wouldn't surprise me if phones did the same > thing) that, if you plug in the wrong charger, even though the > connector is correct, displays a snarky message about how you have to > use the charger and cable that came with the device, and refuses to > charge. There are far worse abuses of USB connectors than that. I've got a pulse oximeter with a mini USB B connector, but it isn't a USB device. It has 3.3V CMOS async serial (not RS-232) on the connector, and may be damaged if it is plugged directly into USB. The cable they provided, USB A male to USB mini B male, has a USB to serial chip molded in. This would have been a reasonable plan, if they had found some other connector to put on the device, rather than a USB connector. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 5 12:52:21 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 18:52:21 +0100 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120505163944.GC9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120505163944.GC9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4FA568D5.5090300@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/05/2012 17:39, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Sat, May 05, 2012 at 11:56:35AM -0400, Mouse wrote: >> The connector is not all there is to it. I recently ran into a device >> (not a phone, but it wouldn't surprise me if phones did the same thing) >> that, if you plug in the wrong charger, even though the connector is >> correct, displays a snarky message about how you have to use the >> charger and cable that came with the device, and refuses to charge. > > That is someone playing silly games. If you remember, name & shame > please Actually there is sometimes a good reason. For example, an iPhone can pull far more current than USB guarantees (well over an amp), so it tests first. The proper charger has a couple of voltage dividers across the power such that the data +/- lines are held at specific voltages even at light load. If the voltage on each is within a specific (fairly narrow) range the iPhone knows it can pull at least an amp. A different range tells it 500mA. Else nothing. See, for example, http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/04/hacker-reveals-how-apple-artifically-restricts-iphone-chargers/ Otherwise, I agree, if a lower-power device only needs what it can get from a normal USB port, there is absolutely no reason for it to be picky, and shame on any designer or manufacturer who plays stupid games around device detection. Why Apple stuff sometimes won't work with an otherwise perfectly good USB cable is beyond me (and deplorable). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat May 5 12:59:36 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 10:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 May 2012, Mouse wrote: >> And these days, USB also helps clean up the mobile phone charger >> mess: an increasing number of new phones just use USB with a micro >> USB connector instead of every phone needing its very own wallwart >> with a very special connector. > > The connector is not all there is to it. I recently ran into a device > (not a phone, but it wouldn't surprise me if phones did the same thing) > that, if you plug in the wrong charger, even though the connector is > correct, displays a snarky message about how you have to use the > charger and cable that came with the device, and refuses to charge. Some Motorola phones will do this. At least I know the RAZR series would. They wouldn't display any sort of message. They'd just refuse to charge. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat May 5 13:26:09 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 14:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA568D5.5090300@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120505163944.GC9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4FA568D5.5090300@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <201205051826.OAA05270@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> I recently ran into a device [...] that, if you plug in the wrong >>> charger, [...] displays a snarky message about how you have to use >>> the charger and cable that came with the device, and refuses to >>> charge. >> That is someone playing silly games. If you remember, name & shame >> please I don't remember, but I can find out. > Actually there is sometimes a good reason. For example, an iPhone > can pull far more current than USB guarantees (well over an amp), so > it tests first. That makes sense - provided it scales back to the standard max if the magic indicator isn't present. Refusing to charge at all, I can't see that as anything but customer lock-in. Mouse From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 5 13:41:54 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 11:41:54 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA568D5.5090300@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120505163944.GC9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4FA568D5.5090300@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4FA57472.1070706@brouhaha.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > For example, an iPhone can pull far more current than USB guarantees > (well over an amp), so it tests first. The proper charger has a couple > of voltage dividers across the power such that the data +/- lines are > held at specific voltages even at light load. If the voltage on each > is within a specific (fairly narrow) range the iPhone knows it can > pull at least an amp. A different range tells it 500mA. Else nothing. The iPad is obnoxious about this. If it can't get the extra current it wants, it tells the user that it won't charge. It lies, though: actually it does charge, but slowly. This had me in a panic when I first found out about it after having flown somewhere. I assumed that I could charge it from my laptop, and didn't bring the iPad charger. The first evening the battery was low, so I plugged it into the laptop, and it told me that it wouldn't charge. I thought I was out of luck for the whole trip, but it actually did manage to charge overnight. They really should change the message to say that it will take a long time to charge, rather than claiming that it won't charge at all. From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 13:46:31 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 11:46:31 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA562BF.8060507@brouhaha.com> References: , <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <4FA562BF.8060507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FA51317.11206.752D6F@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2012 at 10:26, Eric Smith wrote: > There are far worse abuses of USB connectors than that. I've got a > pulse oximeter with a mini USB B connector, but it isn't a USB device. > It has 3.3V CMOS async serial (not RS-232) on the connector, and may > be damaged if it is plugged directly into USB. The cable they > provided, USB A male to USB mini B male, has a USB to serial chip > molded in. History beginning to repeat itself? 25 pin D-sub connectors were the most common type, could be obtained from a large number of sources, had a standard description, and, due to volume, were inexpensive when compared to other proprietary connectors. So, you use them for everything. As far as a computer with nothing but USB for connectivity, the Cotton Candy from Fxitech comes pretty close--one USB male on one end, a female USB on the other end and an HDMI connector in the middle: http://www.fxitech.com/products/ --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 5 15:29:56 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 21:29:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120504162956.L41503@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 4, 12 04:39:17 pm Message-ID: > > > > I haev to agree with you. Somebody who can't plug the cable from a thing > > > with keys on it into a socket marked 'keyboard' (or with a little picture > > > of a keyboard nest to it) probably shouldn't own a computer :-) > On Fri, 4 May 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > > They have the SAME connector, > > Well, YOUR PS/2 ones might. > > My keyboard had the same connector as the cassette. So does mine. Actually, it's a Type M which came off a PS/2 machine. I cut off the mini-DIN and soldered on a full-sized DIN plug. > > Which one of my machines had that same connector for the video, POWER!! > and cassette? TRS-80 Mod1l I, I guess. Which of my machines has the same connector (even same gneder) for the serial and (TTL level) parallel ports? Hint, the conenctor is not a DB25 (and nor is it a card edge or a header plug). > THAT was a bad move! > > > so from a usability pov it invites > > mistakes. Sometimes, even non-technical people use computers. I've > > noticed that they often don't identify sockets before attempting plugs. I hate to say this, but such people deserve all they get, including the magic smoke leaking out.But plugigng PS/2 devies int othe wrong sockets does no damage. > > Yes, I've seen people try to FORCE a 7 pin DIN into a 5 pin DIN - "square > peg into round hole"? I've seen a DEC field servoid force one of those '3 coaxes in a DA shell' conenctor (whatever it's called) on upside-down, thus swapping the red and blue signals... > > > And proliferating physically incompatible connectors seems to make less > > sense than simply standardising a simple interface. > > "easier to add entire additional microcontrollers to each (that didn't > previously need them) than to try to get people to only plug them in where > they fit" > > > Serial mouse, printer, keyboard, video shouldn't have posed any problems. > Although I do rmember a VERY short period of time when MICROS~1 peddled a > "BUS" mouse that used a female DE9 on its interface board! > > How long should it take a "college instructor" to destroy the connectors > on a PC/JR? 10 seconds at most :-). Those are horrible header plugs... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 5 15:06:06 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 21:06:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA3E361.28401.E4336F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 4, 12 02:10:41 pm Message-ID: > Well, ethernet (PoE) is going that way, but in a bigger sense (ca. > 44V at 350 ma.). Thinking about it, most of my machines have power available on the ethernet conenctor. That's the AUI connector, of course :-) > > Most modern PCs will continue to supply power to the USB connectors > even when "off" (soft "off"), so mobile devices can be charged even > when the system isn't being used. I am sure there are more efficient ways to do this. > > And USB as a cheap source of power makes all of those really cool > devices--shavers, foot warmers, fans, etc. possible. Do does a bench supply... Anyway, I dnon't particularly want to sahve near my computer. Shaving produces a lot of dust (consisting of small particles of hair, of ocurse), which I'd rahter didn't end up in my systems. And with only 2.5W availalbe (after negotiation, 5V at 500mA), I don't think any of the heaters are going to do a lot. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 5 15:15:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 21:15:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA456C5.1050606@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at May 4, 12 03:23:01 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/4/2012 12:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Because it's clearly simpler to have a single bus and lose the > >> specialised connectors. Which PCs eventually did (long after Apple did). > > Firslty whatever USB is, it is certainly not a bus. > > > > Secondly, how is it simpler? It certainly makes the electronics a lot > > more complicated (USB being a more complex protocol than the one for a > > PS/2 keybord or mouse). And I don;t think it makes things much simpler > > for the user. After all, there are specific conenctors for the mains > > input and the video output (VGA or DVI or whatever), why is a specific > > connector for the keyboard so complciated? > > I have a device on my desk here that's the size of a small paperback > book; it's a subnotebook computer. I can connect keyboards, mice, > scanners, printers, serial ports, parallel & scsi ports, cameras, > calculators, phones, GPIB interfaces, external sound, video capture, > hard drives, usb memory sticks, card readers and dozens of other things > that I'm not able to bring to mind in the 20 seconds it took me to type To add all those at once you must have external hubs (since USB is not a bus), which will increase the volume somewhat. Actually, i have a similar-sized machine here. It fits in my pocket (normal size pocket) runs off interal primary cells, and can be programmed in 2 high level languages and assembly languate. It can be connected to external disk drives, tape drives, RS232 ports, parallel ports, HPIB devices, printers, pen plotters, video display units measuring instruments, other similar machines, and so. It can easily conenct ot 31 devies at a time, ther are ways to make it do rather more. Oh, and did I mention it doesn't need external hubs to do this. No, it's not USB. The thing is getting on for 28 years old... > that -- all to one of the pair of USB ports on the side. (No, not all > at the same time, smartass :)). If this device had a specialized > connector for each (or even most) of these it'd be completely covered in > them and probably weigh 30 pounds :). FIrstly, what would be the problem if it did waigh 30 pounds nad lived in a 19" rack module? Secondly, I assume you normally conenct a mouse and keyboard to it. That takes up 2 USBN ports,wheter built into the machine or on an external huyb. The volume of a SUB connector is comparable to that for a mini-DIN connecotr. SO it souldn't take up any more space to have PS/2 interfaces for the keyboard and mouse. > > This is the advantage of USB for modern computing. No, it's not You misunderstand me. Iam not quesitoning (yet) whether USB is a good idea for external memory drvies, or anything like that. I am specidicalyl askign why it is a good thing for keybaords and mice. So far nobody has managed to justivy that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 5 15:44:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 21:44:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <611F389D-1264-41A4-88E4-8F4EF1D2F327@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at May 5, 12 09:59:18 am Message-ID: > > On Apr 30, 2012, at 2:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Motorola also offered a bubble-pack of assorted milliwatt RTL TO-100 > > devices as part of their experimenter's kit line. (Fat chance of > > that ever happening again!). The little booklet that came with it > > was interesting in that perhaps as many linear applications were > > described as digital ones. > > That's pretty neat! The 74HCU04 datasheet (the Philips/NXP one, > anyway) has an application circuit for it as a "poor man's amp", IIRC the 74HCU04 is just complementary pairs of MOSFETs, so it';s not suprising it works as an amplifier. I've seen similar things (possibly usign the 4069UBE) used as the tape input circuit on older microcomputers. > running it as an inverting amplifier. The original Nintendo > actually used this as its mixer/line amp stage for the sound > output: IIRC one of Vonada's lawas is that 'digital circuits are made from analogue parts' so it's hardly suprising yuo can sometimes go back to the analogue function. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 5 15:21:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 21:21:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA46466.2000003@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at May 4, 12 07:21:10 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/05/12 3:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> specialised connectors. Which PCs eventually did (long after Apple did). > >> > >> Knowing the difference between a keyboard and a mouse was stretching the > >> limits? > > > > I haev to agree with you. Somebody who can't plug the cable from a thing > > with keys on it into a socket marked 'keyboard' (or with a little picture > > of a keyboard nest to it) probably shouldn't own a computer :-) > > > > They have the SAME connector, so from a usability pov it invites > mistakes. Sometimes, even non-technical people use computers. I've > noticed that they often don't identify sockets before attempting plugs. On an LCD TV we bought a few yewars ago there are 8 RCA phono sockets (along with lots of otehr conencotrs). These RCA phono sockets are : 3 for 'component video' -- luminance nad 2 chromanance signals. Coloured red, gereen amd blue 3 for an AV inoutm, Composite video (yellow) left (white) and red (right) audio 2 for audio output to an external amplifier (if to so wish), white and red again. So there are 3 red-coloured phono sockets with differnet functions. It makes having to plug colour-coded moni-DINs into keyboard and mouse conencotrs very simple. > > And proliferating physically incompatible connectors seems to make less > sense than simply standardising a simple interface. USB ius anything but simple. Have you read the standard? Anyway, next you'll be claiming that the 3 sockets on the wall here -- a 230V 13A mains socket, a coaxial TV aerial socket and a UK telephone sockey should all teally br the same type of conenctor and interchangeable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 5 15:24:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 21:24:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at May 4, 12 07:23:15 pm Message-ID: > > And why is this a Good Thing? My point is that it's to be exptected that > > a modern PC will have a keyboard and mouse connected to it. Why does it > > make any difference to the used if those can be connected to 2 of the USB > > ports or to 2 specific connectors for them? > > You've already asked that. Yes, and I still haven't received an answer. > > NOW imagine that a whole bunch of unforeseen devices - printers, > cameras, touch sensitive tablets, disks, modems, e-book readers, 'pen' > drives, portable audio players, ... - arrives. Are they meant to use > PS/2? Are they supposed to have individual connectors? USB is no more a > silly idea than RS-232 is. That is NOT WHAT I AM ASKING ABOUT. I sam specifically considering only keyboards and mice. I happen to think that USB is a useful interface in some situations, for example for external memory devices. That doens't mean I have to think it's the best interface for all applications no matter what marketroids may claim. FWIW, I don;' consdier RS232 to be a universal interface either. It's one I use somethmes when I feel it's the appropriate choice. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 16:56:01 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 14:56:01 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: <4FA3E361.28401.E4336F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 4, 12 02:10:41 pm, Message-ID: <4FA53F81.9206.122A98B@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2012 at 21:06, Tony Duell wrote: > Anyway, I dnon't particularly want to sahve near my computer. Shaving > produces a lot of dust (consisting of small particles of hair, of > ocurse), which I'd rahter didn't end up in my systems. Today on the local Craigslist, I note that there's a USB (toy) missle launcher for sale. ...and of course, there's the Philips USB toothbrush, as well as the Remington HC5350GP USB nose and ear hair trimmer. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat May 5 16:58:32 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 17:58:32 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA5A288.8030005@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/05/12 4:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>... >> And proliferating physically incompatible connectors seems to make less >> sense than simply standardising a simple interface. > > USB ius anything but simple. Have you read the standard? > Yes. > Anyway, next you'll be claiming that the 3 sockets on the wall here -- a > 230V 13A mains socket, a coaxial TV aerial socket and a UK telephone > sockey should all teally br the same type of conenctor and interchangeable. > No, that wouldn't be sensible, obviously. "proliferating physically incompatible connectors [for I/O]" <-- This. There is a budget on space and complexity on motherboards and especially portable devices. You don't see why USB exists. We get it. --T > > -tony > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat May 5 16:59:39 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 17:59:39 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA5A2CB.8050504@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/05/12 4:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> And why is this a Good Thing? My point is that it's to be exptected that >>> a modern PC will have a keyboard and mouse connected to it. Why does it >>> make any difference to the used if those can be connected to 2 of the USB >>> ports or to 2 specific connectors for them? >> >> You've already asked that. > > Yes, and I still haven't received an answer. > >> >> NOW imagine that a whole bunch of unforeseen devices - printers, >> cameras, touch sensitive tablets, disks, modems, e-book readers, 'pen' >> drives, portable audio players, ... - arrives. Are they meant to use >> PS/2? Are they supposed to have individual connectors? USB is no more a >> silly idea than RS-232 is. > > That is NOT WHAT I AM ASKING ABOUT. I sam specifically considering only > keyboards and mice. Why not use it for keyboards and mice? --T > I happen to think that USB is a useful interface in > some situations, for example for external memory devices. That doens't > mean I have to think it's the best interface for all applications no > matter what marketroids may claim. > > FWIW, I don;' consdier RS232 to be a universal interface either. It's > one I use somethmes when I feel it's the appropriate choice. > > -tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 5 17:19:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 15:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA53F81.9206.122A98B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FA3E361.28401.E4336F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 4, 12 02:10:41 pm, <4FA53F81.9206.122A98B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120505151629.F77826@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 5 May 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Today on the local Craigslist, I note that there's a USB (toy) missle > launcher for sale. Sure, they sell it as a toy. now. But would it work with upgraded hardware? > ...and of course, there's the Philips USB toothbrush, as well as the > Remington HC5350GP USB nose and ear hair trimmer. How much computing resources do they require? From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat May 5 17:29:23 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 15:29:23 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA5A9C3.30306@mail.msu.edu> On 5/5/2012 1:15 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> On 5/4/2012 12:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Because it's clearly simpler to have a single bus and lose the >>>> specialised connectors. Which PCs eventually did (long after Apple did). >>> Firslty whatever USB is, it is certainly not a bus. >>> >>> Secondly, how is it simpler? It certainly makes the electronics a lot >>> more complicated (USB being a more complex protocol than the one for a >>> PS/2 keybord or mouse). And I don;t think it makes things much simpler >>> for the user. After all, there are specific conenctors for the mains >>> input and the video output (VGA or DVI or whatever), why is a specific >>> connector for the keyboard so complciated? >> I have a device on my desk here that's the size of a small paperback >> book; it's a subnotebook computer. I can connect keyboards, mice, >> scanners, printers, serial ports, parallel& scsi ports, cameras, >> calculators, phones, GPIB interfaces, external sound, video capture, >> hard drives, usb memory sticks, card readers and dozens of other things >> that I'm not able to bring to mind in the 20 seconds it took me to type > To add all those at once you must have external hubs (since USB is not a > bus), which will increase the volume somewhat. That's not the point I was making, and you know it. (Or would have known it if you'd read two sentences down before making the above comment...) There are very few occasions on which I need more than a couple of devices connected at the same time. And thanks to USB's support for hot-swapping, if I do need to connect swap something else in it's pretty trivial to do so. > > Actually, i have a similar-sized machine here. It fits in my pocket > (normal size pocket) runs off interal primary cells, and can be programmed > in 2 high level languages and assembly languate. It can be connected to > external disk drives, tape drives, RS232 ports, parallel ports, HPIB > devices, printers, pen plotters, video display units measuring > instruments, other similar machines, and so. It can easily conenct ot 31 > devies at a time, ther are ways to make it do rather more. Oh, and did I > mention it doesn't need external hubs to do this. > > No, it's not USB. The thing is getting on for 28 years old... Yes, HPIB and HPIL are very very useful and very cool and were far ahead of their time. Perhaps if it had caught on in the personal computer space (outside of the world of HP), it would have beaten out USB. Alas, it did not work out that way. USB is perhaps not as elegant, but you can see that it fills a need -- perhaps a need that HPIB could have filled "universally" :) in an alternate universe. (With smaller connectors and less bulky cabling :)). >> that -- all to one of the pair of USB ports on the side. (No, not all >> at the same time, smartass :)). If this device had a specialized >> connector for each (or even most) of these it'd be completely covered in >> them and probably weigh 30 pounds :). > FIrstly, what would be the problem if it did waigh 30 pounds nad lived in > a 19" rack module? Well then it wouldn't be *portable* anymore, would it? > > Secondly, I assume you normally conenct a mouse and keyboard to it. It's a subnotebook, they're both built-in. I have on occasion hooked up an external keyboard and mouse, but it's not the primary usage mode for this device. > That > takes up 2 USBN ports,wheter built into the machine or on an external > huyb. The volume of a SUB connector is comparable to that for a mini-DIN > connecotr. SO it souldn't take up any more space to have PS/2 interfaces > for the keyboard and mouse. Then why not have 4 USB ports instead of just the two USB + two PS/2? Even more flexibility for those times that I don't need a keyboard/mouse. > >> This is the advantage of USB for modern computing. No, it's not > You misunderstand me. Iam not quesitoning (yet) whether USB is a good > idea for external memory drvies, or anything like that. I am specidicalyl > askign why it is a good thing for keybaords and mice. So far nobody has > managed to justivy that. In the case of the subnotebook (or any modern laptop), it saves connector space. If my subnotebook had two PS/2 ports just in the event that I wanted to use an external keyboard & mouse (which is rare), it'd still have to (since people expect it these days) have a USB port or two. The USB port(s) can perform the same functions as the PS/2 ports in this case (i.e. making it possible to use an external keyboard/mouse). This saves space, and saves money that would be spent on (effectively redundant, and special-use only) connectors. On my desktop I still (for the moment) have a PS/2 keyboard port and it's fine there, space is not an issue. (This is on a PC motherboard bought in 2010). I'll keep using PS/2 one way or another until I die or my Omnikey Ultra does :). - Josh > > -tony > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 17:36:44 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 15:36:44 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120505151629.F77826@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FA3E361.28401.E4336F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FA53F81.9206.122A98B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120505151629.F77826@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FA5490C.15844.147F381@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2012 at 15:19, Fred Cisin wrote: > How much computing resources do they require? Dunno, but the thought of performing personal hygiene activities at the computer makes me wonder if the next "innovation" will be a USB powered corncob... ( --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat May 5 17:40:18 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 18:40:18 -0400 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96E58F67-A280-4A8A-91AF-71D8B0E68333@gmail.com> On May 5, 2012, at 4:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Apr 30, 2012, at 2:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> Motorola also offered a bubble-pack of assorted milliwatt RTL TO-100 >>> devices as part of their experimenter's kit line. (Fat chance of >>> that ever happening again!). The little booklet that came with it >>> was interesting in that perhaps as many linear applications were >>> described as digital ones. >> >> That's pretty neat! The 74HCU04 datasheet (the Philips/NXP one, >> anyway) has an application circuit for it as a "poor man's amp", > > IIRC the 74HCU04 is just complementary pairs of MOSFETs, so it';s not > suprising it works as an amplifier. I've seen similar things (possibly > usign the 4069UBE) used as the tape input circuit on older microcomputers. Indeed, I wasn't surprised; it's a high-gain, symmetric, inverting amp. I was surprised that it was included in the app note for a digital device; the Nintendo schematic was the first time I'd seen it used as analog. This was quite a few years ago. - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 5 17:51:36 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 15:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA5490C.15844.147F381@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "May 5, 12 03:36:44 pm" Message-ID: <201205052251.q45MpahL13172778@floodgap.com> > > How much computing resources do they require? > > Dunno, but the thought of performing personal hygiene activities at > the computer makes me wonder if the next "innovation" will be a USB > powered corncob... ( There are already, um, devices of a personal nature available. You can easily guess which industry. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Time is an illusion. Lunch time, doubly so. -- Douglas Adams --------------- From als at thangorodrim.de Sat May 5 17:58:03 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 00:58:03 +0200 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA568D5.5090300@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120505163944.GC9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4FA568D5.5090300@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20120505225802.GE9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, May 05, 2012 at 06:52:21PM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 05/05/2012 17:39, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > On Sat, May 05, 2012 at 11:56:35AM -0400, Mouse wrote: > > >> The connector is not all there is to it. I recently ran into a device > >> (not a phone, but it wouldn't surprise me if phones did the same thing) > >> that, if you plug in the wrong charger, even though the connector is > >> correct, displays a snarky message about how you have to use the > >> charger and cable that came with the device, and refuses to charge. > > > > That is someone playing silly games. If you remember, name & shame > > please > > Actually there is sometimes a good reason. For example, an iPhone can > pull far more current than USB guarantees (well over an amp), so it > tests first. The proper charger has a couple of voltage dividers across > the power such that the data +/- lines are held at specific voltages > even at light load. If the voltage on each is within a specific (fairly > narrow) range the iPhone knows it can pull at least an amp. A different > range tells it 500mA. Else nothing. Which is still wrong since you can pull up to 500 mA from a standard USB port (after negotiation, but you probably can get away with trying to pull 500 mA regardless, especially if the other end is a stupid charger and not a full USB host implementation - which shouldn't be too hard to figure out). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Sat May 5 18:02:37 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 01:02:37 +0200 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA562BF.8060507@brouhaha.com> References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FA562BF.8060507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120505230236.GF9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, May 05, 2012 at 10:26:23AM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Mouse wrote: > >The connector is not all there is to it. I recently ran into a > >device (not a phone, but it wouldn't surprise me if phones did the > >same thing) that, if you plug in the wrong charger, even though > >the connector is correct, displays a snarky message about how you > >have to use the charger and cable that came with the device, and > >refuses to charge. > > There are far worse abuses of USB connectors than that. I've got a > pulse oximeter with a mini USB B connector, but it isn't a USB > device. It has 3.3V CMOS async serial (not RS-232) on the > connector, and may be damaged if it is plugged directly into USB. > The cable they provided, USB A male to USB mini B male, has a USB to > serial chip molded in. WTF? So why not put the USB to serial part into the _device_ so you can use a normal USB cable and ports? The only explanation that comes to my mind is: - certified medical device - they got away with changing the connector (from something very custom) - but changing the internal circuitry would trigger a re-certification Of course that might be wrong and it is simply a case of some hardware designer smoking something strongly brain-damaging. > This would have been a reasonable plan, if they had found some other > connector to put on the device, rather than a USB connector. Or that, yes. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 5 18:16:55 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 16:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA5490C.15844.147F381@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FA3E361.28401.E4336F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FA53F81.9206.122A98B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120505151629.F77826@shell.lmi.net> <4FA5490C.15844.147F381@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120505161451.J77826@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 5 May 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Dunno, but the thought of performing personal hygiene activities at > the computer makes me wonder if the next "innovation" will be a USB > powered corncob... ( How many USB ports does the Toto Washlet have? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 5 18:21:49 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 16:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <201205052251.q45MpahL13172778@floodgap.com> References: <201205052251.q45MpahL13172778@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20120505162031.Y77826@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 5 May 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > There are already, um, devices of a personal nature available. You can > easily guess which industry. Tele-dildonics? (data-lingerie, etc.) "If you build it, they will come" From als at thangorodrim.de Sat May 5 18:16:56 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 01:16:56 +0200 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20120505231656.GG9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, May 05, 2012 at 06:37:59PM +0200, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 4:21 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > And these days, USB also helps clean up the mobile phone charger mess: > > an increasing number of new phones just use USB with a micro USB connector > > instead of every phone needing its very own wallwart with a very special > > connector. > > IIRC, that is actually mandated by law in some countries now, notably China. And IIRC it is at least a strong recommendation in the EU. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 5 18:49:22 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 00:49:22 +0100 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120505225802.GE9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120505163944.GC9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4FA568D5.5090300@dunnington.plus.com> <20120505225802.GE9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4FA5BC82.2050309@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/05/2012 23:58, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Sat, May 05, 2012 at 06:52:21PM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> If the voltage on each is within a specific (fairly >> narrow) range the iPhone knows it can pull at least an amp. A different >> range tells it 500mA. Else nothing. > > Which is still wrong since you can pull up to 500 mA from a standard USB > port (after negotiation, but you probably can get away with trying to pull > 500 mA regardless, especially if the other end is a stupid charger and not > a full USB host implementation - which shouldn't be too hard to figure out). OK, "after negotiation" -- but if the iPhone doesn't get any negotiation how does it know what it can draw? Should it assume the full 500mA, or might it be a low-power charger that won't even do that? Some laptops will give 5V but only at a few mA when asleep, some chargers give substantially less than 500mA. Hence the resistor network. In fact an iPhone /will/ negotiate, but if the negotiation fails it relies on the cruder simpler hardware. I'm not suggesting it's perfect -- I've found plenty of situations where it fails (like with some docking units) -- but I can see some logic to it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 5 20:36:42 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 18:36:42 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA5D5AA.6040800@brouhaha.com> >> And USB as a cheap source of power makes all of those really cool >> devices--shavers, foot warmers, fans, etc. possible. > [So] does a bench supply... Sure, but you usually can't get a bench supply for under the price of a fast food burger, while you usually can get a USB "charger". I think it's pretty nifty to be able to get 2.5W and 5W 5V power supplies that inexpensively. Of course, they're also not of the same quality as a bench supply. I wouldn't use them for anything that I can't easily repair. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 5 20:39:08 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 18:39:08 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120505151629.F77826@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FA3E361.28401.E4336F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 4, 12 02:10:41 pm, <4FA53F81.9206.122A98B@cclist.sydex.com> <20120505151629.F77826@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FA5D63C.9070109@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> ...and of course, there's the Philips USB toothbrush, as well as the >> Remington HC5350GP USB nose and ear hair trimmer. > How much computing resources do they require? I haven't tried those particular models, but I generally find that my toothbrush and my nose/ear hair trimmer tend to use up a substantial fraction of my personal computing resources. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat May 5 21:26:34 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 22:26:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201205060226.WAA11457@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> That's pretty neat! The 74HCU04 datasheet (the Philips/NXP one, >> anyway) has an application circuit for it as a "poor man's amp", > IIRC the 74HCU04 is just complementary pairs of MOSFETs, so it';s not > suprising it works as an amplifier. If I've got my nomenclature straight, the 'HCU04 is specifically designed for use in analog circuits - "such as crystal oscillators", as one datahseet I saw put it - so it's hardly a surprise that it works to use it as an inverting analog amplifier. Probably not a particularly linear one, but if its gain is high and it isn't hysterical - er, doesn't exhibit hysteresis, that is :-) - then throwing a feedback loop around it will linearize it substantially as well as providing much better control over the overall gain. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat May 5 21:44:49 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 22:44:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA5A288.8030005@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4FA5A288.8030005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201205060244.WAA11733@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > You don't see why USB exists. We get it. tony's not stupid; I think he sees why USB exists. But I think his point is that, while (like any flag day) it's in the interest of computer makers to impose it, it isn't in the interest of the end users. I agree with him. USB is great for hardware makers, since it enforces obsolescence, thus ensuring a stream of new sales - well, actually, it's not having USB that's good, but eliminating non-USB (and even tony doesn't seem to mind having USB for the things it is good at, just its imposition for other stuff it's unnecesary-to-negative for). It's not great for end users - for most of them it's a minor lose (and for a few it's a major lose and for a few it's a win). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From technobug at comcast.net Sat May 5 22:17:18 2012 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 20:17:18 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 May 2012 21:24:19 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >>> And why is this a Good Thing? My point is that it's to be exptected that >>> a modern PC will have a keyboard and mouse connected to it. Why does it >>> make any difference to the used if those can be connected to 2 of the USB >>> ports or to 2 specific connectors for them? >> >> You've already asked that. > > Yes, and I still haven't received an answer. > >> >> NOW imagine that a whole bunch of unforeseen devices - printers, >> cameras, touch sensitive tablets, disks, modems, e-book readers, 'pen' >> drives, portable audio players, ... - arrives. Are they meant to use >> PS/2? Are they supposed to have individual connectors? USB is no more a >> silly idea than RS-232 is. > > That is NOT WHAT I AM ASKING ABOUT. I sam specifically considering only > keyboards and mice. I happen to think that USB is a useful interface in > some situations, for example for external memory devices. That doens't > mean I have to think it's the best interface for all applications no > matter what marketroids may claim. Consider the computer in front of me. There is a keyboard, a mouse, a trackball, and a Wacom Inkling all plugged in and active using USB. How do you do that with only two ports? I use the trackball and occasionally the tablet. Another user uses the mouse and the tablet. All without unplugging and plugging the various devices... ->CRC From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 5 22:21:21 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 20:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA5A9C3.30306@mail.msu.edu> References: <4FA5A9C3.30306@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20120505201006.I84381@shell.lmi.net> > > Secondly, I assume you normally conenct a mouse and keyboard to it. On Sat, 5 May 2012, Josh Dersch wrote: > It's a subnotebook, they're both built-in. I have on occasion hooked up > an external keyboard and mouse, but it's not the primary usage mode for > this device. Thank you The ability to add a keyboard and mouse on a machine, where adding a keyboard and mouse is truly OPTIONAL, is the first rational argument that I've heard for USB connection of keyboard and mouse being better than separate unique keyboard and mouse connectors. One other thing that USB has been good for is to standardize hardware interdacing across platforms. Otherwise, how do you add an EPROM programmer to a Mac? IFF you survive your journey through driver hell, at least the hardware can now interchange! There used to be a time when some Mac fanatics would claim that the Mac was a "better machine" because EVERY OEM peripheral available for it (both of them) would "just work", whereas the thousands of third party peripherals available for PC would require cabling and drivers. Now, finally, EVERYBODY can experience the joys of peripheral vendor "support"! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat May 5 22:53:01 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 23:53:01 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <201205060244.WAA11733@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4FA5A288.8030005@telegraphics.com.au> <201205060244.WAA11733@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4FA5F59D.8030003@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/05/12 10:44 PM, Mouse wrote: >> You don't see why USB exists. We get it. > > tony's not stupid; I think he sees why USB exists. But I think his > point is that, while (like any flag day) it's in the interest of > computer makers to impose it, it isn't in the interest of the end > users. > > I agree with him. USB is great for hardware makers, since it enforces > obsolescence, thus ensuring a stream of new sales - well, actually, No more than any standard does. USB has been around for a long time now, the Molotovs and placards are a bit on the late side. --T > it's not having USB that's good, but eliminating non-USB (and even tony > doesn't seem to mind having USB for the things it is good at, just its > imposition for other stuff it's unnecesary-to-negative for). It's not > great for end users - for most of them it's a minor lose (and for a few > it's a major lose and for a few it's a win). > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat May 5 22:55:38 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 23:55:38 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice In-Reply-To: <20120505201006.I84381@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FA5A9C3.30306@mail.msu.edu> <20120505201006.I84381@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On May 5, 2012, at 11:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > There used to be a time when some Mac fanatics would claim that the Mac > was a "better machine" because EVERY OEM peripheral available for it (both > of them) would "just work", whereas the thousands of third party > peripherals available for PC would require cabling and drivers. Having been a Mac user for a long, long time, I'll admit that that's because the selection of devices available for the Mac was rather constrained. Yeah, anything that looked like a SCSI disk would "just work", just like anything that looks like USB Mass Storage will "just work" on any platform that even pretends to support USB. SCSI scanners, on the other hand, were always subject to the whims of device manufacturers; USB has made it neither better nor worse. I'm glad that digital cameras settled rather quickly on the sane idea of presenting themselves as USB Mass Storage, at least (since, at the base level, they're just acting as memory card storage adaptors). That would have been possible with SCSI, but who wants to hook up SCSI to a digital camera? Instead, you ended up with weird proprietary solutions over serial (e.g. Apple's QuickTake) or oddball devices like the Sony Mavica, which had the floppy drive built in. And, of course, with SCSI you needed some sort of intelligent device on both ends for managing the transactions. Obviously, this has nothing to do with keyboards or mice, which could be left well enough alone (the fact that the PS/2 port persists on most PC motherboards is a testament to the fact that it's not a bad idea), but it is nice to at least have keyboards and mice that can plug into the same port that every other device plugs into. Mandating it, of course, seems silly. I'll cop to that. I'm still using an ADB keyboard through a USB adaptor (ADB, of course, does require some level of intelligence in the device, though really not a whole lot more than a PS/2 keyboard). - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat May 5 22:56:51 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 23:56:51 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120505201006.I84381@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FA5A9C3.30306@mail.msu.edu> <20120505201006.I84381@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FA5F683.8070500@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/05/12 11:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Secondly, I assume you normally conenct a mouse and keyboard to it. > > On Sat, 5 May 2012, Josh Dersch wrote: >> It's a subnotebook, they're both built-in. I have on occasion hooked up >> an external keyboard and mouse, but it's not the primary usage mode for >> this device. > > Thank you > > The ability to add a keyboard and mouse on a machine, where adding a > keyboard and mouse is truly OPTIONAL, is the first rational argument that > I've heard for USB connection of keyboard and mouse being better than > separate unique keyboard and mouse connectors. > It's also very optional on servers... --T > > One other thing that USB has been good for is to standardize hardware > interdacing across platforms.... From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat May 5 23:12:08 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 00:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA5F59D.8030003@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4FA5A288.8030005@telegraphics.com.au> <201205060244.WAA11733@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FA5F59D.8030003@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201205060412.AAA14400@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I agree with him. USB is great for hardware makers, since it >> enforces obsolescence, thus ensuring a stream of new sales [...] > No more than any standard does. USB has been around for a long time > now, the Molotovs and placards are a bit on the late side. But the discussion isn't how long USB has had a spec, or how long it's existed on the lab bench. It's about its appearance in mass-market machines, and, more specifically, its being imposed (ie, no alternative provided) for the connection of low-speed HCI devices such as keyboards and mice. USB is fine, in ts place. But I'm with tony in that I think that that place does not, possibly excepting some ridiculously space-constrained designs, include keyboards and mice. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sun May 6 01:02:02 2012 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 16:02:02 +1000 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <201205060412.AAA14400@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4FA5A288.8030005@telegraphics.com.au> <201205060244.WAA11733@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FA5F59D.8030003@telegraphics.com.au> <201205060412.AAA14400@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4fa613df.2383440a.3af9.106f@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse Sent: Sunday, 6 May 2012 2:12 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM >>> I agree with him. USB is great for hardware makers, since it >>> enforces obsolescence, thus ensuring a stream of new sales [...] >> No more than any standard does. USB has been around for a long time >> now, the Molotovs and placards are a bit on the late side. > But the discussion isn't how long USB has had a spec, or how long it's > existed on the lab bench. It's about its appearance in mass-market > machines, and, more specifically, its being imposed (ie, no alternative > provided) for the connection of low-speed HCI devices such as keyboards > and mice. > USB is fine, in ts place. But I'm with tony in that I think that that > place does not, possibly excepting some ridiculously space-constrained > designs, include keyboards and mice. What the USB naysayers haven't said though is exactly why USB is not suitable for keyboards and mice. As for me, none of the three machines here have a PS/2 port for kb's or mice - and no loss either - I can plug those into wherever I want rather than being forced to locate them to the back of the machines. The other thing too, is I only need one of each for all three boxes and can swap them whener I want. PS/2 interfaces don't fare quite so well when the machine is on. Lance From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun May 6 12:52:56 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 10:52:56 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4fa613df.2383440a.3af9.106f@mx.google.com> References: <4FA5A288.8030005@telegraphics.com.au> <201205060244.WAA11733@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FA5F59D.8030003@telegraphics.com.au> <201205060412.AAA14400@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4fa613df.2383440a.3af9.106f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <69F5A96C-5C2E-445D-9ADD-39F000037B53@shiresoft.com> On May 5, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Lance Lyon wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: Sunday, 6 May 2012 2:12 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM > >>>> I agree with him. USB is great for hardware makers, since it >>>> enforces obsolescence, thus ensuring a stream of new sales [...] >>> No more than any standard does. USB has been around for a long time >>> now, the Molotovs and placards are a bit on the late side. > >> But the discussion isn't how long USB has had a spec, or how long it's >> existed on the lab bench. It's about its appearance in mass-market >> machines, and, more specifically, its being imposed (ie, no alternative >> provided) for the connection of low-speed HCI devices such as keyboards >> and mice. > >> USB is fine, in ts place. But I'm with tony in that I think that that >> place does not, possibly excepting some ridiculously space-constrained >> designs, include keyboards and mice. > > What the USB naysayers haven't said though is exactly why USB is not > suitable for keyboards and mice. I agree. All keyboards and mice (from original PC) had a micro controller in them (original was 8048). So arguing that USB *requires* more intelligence (as in the AT/PS2 keyboard/mouse doesn't) is wrong. OK, the stack is a little more involved but hard coding a stack for a simple device isn't all that hard. What USB does do, is (and what Apple and other MFR's have followed suit albeit more slowly) that there isn't a proliferation of connectors on the PC. Sourcing, stocking, managing multiple parts is expensive. Reducing the number of parts reduces costs. The other thing that USB allows, is that (especially in the case of Apple) if the keyboard has a hub, you can plug the mouse (or what ever) into the keyboard. I then only need 1 cable winding its way to the machine. USB memory sticks are convenient to plug into the keyboard. Don't have to reach down and find a spot for it on the back of the machine. And as many have mentioned previously, you don't have to explain to folks that the mouse and keyboard connectors while they look the same have to be plugged into different sockets. The crap about "well users should know better" is just that?crap. Good design/engineering doesn't require the user to make up for the shortfalls/short sightedness of the design. TTFN - Guy From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun May 6 13:44:28 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 14:44:28 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <69F5A96C-5C2E-445D-9ADD-39F000037B53@shiresoft.com> References: <4FA5A288.8030005@telegraphics.com.au> <201205060244.WAA11733@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FA5F59D.8030003@telegraphics.com.au> <201205060412.AAA14400@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4fa613df.2383440a.3af9.106f@mx.google.com> <69F5A96C-5C2E-445D-9ADD-39F000037B53@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4FA6C68C.9080100@telegraphics.com.au> On 06/05/12 1:52 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On May 5, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Lance Lyon wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Mouse >> Sent: Sunday, 6 May 2012 2:12 PM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM >> >>>>> I agree with him. USB is great for hardware makers, since it >>>>> enforces obsolescence, thus ensuring a stream of new sales [...] >>>> No more than any standard does. USB has been around for a long time >>>> now, the Molotovs and placards are a bit on the late side. >> >>> But the discussion isn't how long USB has had a spec, or how long it's >>> existed on the lab bench. It's about its appearance in mass-market >>> machines, ... >> >> What the USB naysayers haven't said though is exactly why USB is not >> suitable for keyboards and mice. > > I agree. All keyboards and mice (from original PC) had a micro controller in them > (original was 8048). So arguing that USB *requires* more intelligence (as in the AT/PS2 > keyboard/mouse doesn't) is wrong. OK, the stack is a little more involved but hard > coding a stack for a simple device isn't all that hard. > > What USB does do, is (and what Apple and other MFR's have followed suit albeit more > slowly) Apple dropped ADB for keyboards and mice in favour of USB in *1998*, with the introduction of the iMac G3. --Toby > > TTFN - Guy > From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 14:55:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 12:55:02 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA6C68C.9080100@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <69F5A96C-5C2E-445D-9ADD-39F000037B53@shiresoft.com>, <4FA6C68C.9080100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4FA674A6.25359.FE9816@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2012 at 14:44, Toby Thain wrote: > Apple dropped ADB for keyboards and mice in favour of USB in *1998*, > with the introduction of the iMac G3. Don't almost all USB keyboards have 6-key rollover, where PS/2 keyboards generally have n-key rollover? Does heavy traffic on the host controller (say you have a hard disk plugged into the same port) interfere with USB keyboard operation? Just trying to ask some relevant questions... --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 14:30:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 20:30:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA5A288.8030005@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at May 5, 12 05:58:32 pm Message-ID: > "proliferating physically incompatible connectors [for I/O]" <-- This. > There is a budget on space and complexity on motherboards and especially > portable devices. IMHO different peripherals have different requirements for their interfce and therefore I don;'t think a one-size-fits-all interface, like USB, is a good idea. > > You don't see why USB exists. We get it. That is a complete misquote. For applications that inovle large data transfers nad where there are no real-time requirements, such as interfacing to removable flash memory, external disk drives, and the like, I think that USB is possbily the right itnerface to use (There are others too...). But that doesnt' mean I think it's the right interface for all peripherals. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 14:33:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 20:33:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA5A2CB.8050504@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at May 5, 12 05:59:39 pm Message-ID: > Why not use it for keyboards and mice? Tweo reaosns spring to mind : 1) It is over-complicated, considering the amount of data that has to be transfered, etc. 2) There is not 'interrupt' facility./ The host machine (OK, the USB inteface chip) has to keep on poollign the keyboard to see if a key has changed state, and keep on pollign the mouse to see if it has moved. That seesm to be totally the wrong thing to do.. Heck, even the HP9830 has an intettupt on keypress. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 14:39:24 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 20:39:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120505230236.GF9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> from "Alexander Schreiber" at May 6, 12 01:02:37 am Message-ID: > > There are far worse abuses of USB connectors than that. I've got a > > pulse oximeter with a mini USB B connector, but it isn't a USB > > device. It has 3.3V CMOS async serial (not RS-232) on the > > connector, and may be damaged if it is plugged directly into USB. > > The cable they provided, USB A male to USB mini B male, has a USB to > > serial chip molded in. > > WTF? So why not put the USB to serial part into the _device_ so you can > use a normal USB cable and ports? The only explanation that comes to > my mind is: > - certified medical device > - they got away with changing the connector (from something very custom) > - but changing the internal circuitry would trigger a re-certification > Of course that might be wrong and it is simply a case of some hardware > designer smoking something strongly brain-damaging. While I think that the choice od conenctor here is a very bad one (USB connectors should only be used for USB), I think the external USBV-serial converter is a Good Thing. It is relatively easy to link an asynchronous serial device to a SUB port (one FTDI chip), it is very difficutl to do the reverse.By having an external converter (hidden in the cabel) you have a device that can be linked to a USB interfce or t o an synchronous serial port (possibly with a level shifter). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 14:46:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 20:46:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA5D5AA.6040800@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 5, 12 06:36:42 pm Message-ID: > > > >> And USB as a cheap source of power makes all of those really cool > >> devices--shavers, foot warmers, fans, etc. possible. > > [So] does a bench supply... > > Sure, but you usually can't get a bench supply for under the price of a > fast food burger, while you usually can get a USB "charger". I think True, on the other hand a good bench supply will last for many, many, years and will do a lot more tan provide 5V at 500mA... > it's pretty nifty to be able to get 2.5W and 5W 5V power supplies that > inexpensively. Of course, they're also not of the same quality as a > bench supply. I wouldn't use them for anything that I can't easily repair. I asume the mains powered ones are small SMPSUs. I do wondwe what happens when (not if0 the chopper transsitor fails dothey havve sufficent internal protective devices not to be a hazard (note : complyign weith the regualtions is most certianly not the same thing!) -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 6 15:06:31 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 13:06:31 -0700 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA674A6.25359.FE9816@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <69F5A96C-5C2E-445D-9ADD-39F000037B53@shiresoft.com>, <4FA6C68C.9080100@telegraphics.com.au> <4FA674A6.25359.FE9816@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FA6D9C7.5070803@brouhaha.com> On 05/06/2012 12:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Don't almost all USB keyboards have 6-key rollover, where PS/2 > keyboards generally have n-key rollover? Very few keyboards with either USB or PS/2 interfaces have more than 2-key rollover. There are almost always cases where a third key pressed simultaneously will cause a phantom fourth key. This doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of cases where three keys will work correctly, only that there are some cases that it will fail. Usually they do wire the "modifier" keys (shift, control, alt, etc.) so that they can't produce phantom keys, but some combinations of three or more "normal" keys will produce phantom keys. The reason is that they don't want the expense of adding a diode in the matrix along with each switch, to prevent the phantom keys. The keyboards that do support n key rollover are mostly expensive specialty keyboards, often sold for gaming. USB device class "boot mode" can't support more than 6 key rollover, but normal mode should be able to. However, I haven't found any USB keyboard that actually does have it. I'm guessing that the code shared between boot and normal modes has the limitation. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 14:57:00 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 20:57:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4fa613df.2383440a.3af9.106f@mx.google.com> from "Lance Lyon" at May 6, 12 04:02:02 pm Message-ID: > What the USB naysayers haven't said though is exactly why USB is not > suitable for keyboards and mice. Yes I have. > > As for me, none of the three machines here have a PS/2 port for kb's or mice > - and no loss either - I can plug those into wherever I want rather than > being forced to locate them to the back of the machines. The other thing Eh> If you want PS/2 poerts on the front of the machine, it's triviel to make up extension leads. Having a host that will accept a keyboard on the USB poer is OK,. You cna get cheap interface connverters to use PS/2 keyboards (and mice)/. The problem comes when you have a host that has only a PS/2 port and you find that PS/2 keyboartds are no longer made.... > too, is I only need one of each for all three boxes and can swap them whener > I want. PS/2 interfaces don't fare quite so well when the machine is on. I've nmever had any problems hot-swappign PS/2 dvices. It's not recomended, but.... -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun May 6 15:19:39 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 17:19:39 -0300 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM References: Message-ID: <04dc01cd2bc5$b7b6bad0$6600a8c0@tababook> > That is a complete misquote. For applications that inovle large data > transfers nad where there are no real-time requirements, such as > interfacing to removable flash memory, external disk drives, and the > like, I think that USB is possbily the right itnerface to use (There are > others too...). But that doesnt' mean I think it's the right interface > for all peripherals. Easy question: USB is a high-speed interface. It is already there, so why NOT use it for keyboard and mouse? Once developed the controller, it just works, you don't need to do it again, and it sells at millions. Why not? :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 6 15:43:53 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 13:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120506134007.W3078@shell.lmi.net> > > - and no loss either - I can plug those into wherever I want rather than > > being forced to locate them to the back of the machines. The other thing USB ports are intrinsically much better than any other kind of port because the others are on the back of the machine, and USB ports are always on the front (except on some machines). From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 15:47:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 13:47:38 -0700 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA6D9C7.5070803@brouhaha.com> References: , <4FA674A6.25359.FE9816@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FA6D9C7.5070803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FA680FA.28337.12EC0D2@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2012 at 13:06, Eric Smith wrote: > Very few keyboards with either USB or PS/2 interfaces have more than > 2-key rollover. There are almost always cases where a third key > pressed simultaneously will cause a phantom fourth key. This doesn't > mean that there aren't a lot of cases where three keys will work > correctly, only that there are some cases that it will fail. Usually > they do wire the "modifier" keys (shift, control, alt, etc.) so that > they can't produce phantom keys, but some combinations of three or > more "normal" keys will produce phantom keys. Two simple demonstrations of good keyboard encoding that I'm aware of are these (the Model M fails both) 1. Press the ASDW keys and hold down. See if any other keys register. 2. Press right and left shift and hold down. Type "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog". Since I don't have a USB keyboard (preferring model Ms for the feel), how do USB keyboards fare? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 15:54:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 13:54:02 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120506134007.W3078@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20120506134007.W3078@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FA6827A.28893.1349CB3@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2012 at 13:43, Fred Cisin wrote: > USB ports are intrinsically much better than any other kind of port > because the others are on the back of the machine, and USB ports are > always on the front (except on some machines). That should be "except when they're not". I've had a couple of PC machines where an RS232 port was also on the front along with the USB connector. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 15:59:33 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 13:59:33 -0700 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA680FA.28337.12EC0D2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4FA6D9C7.5070803@brouhaha.com>, <4FA680FA.28337.12EC0D2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FA683C5.25799.139A98B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2012 at 13:47, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 1. Press the ASDW keys and hold down. See if any other keys > register. > > 2. Press right and left shift and hold down. Type "The quick brown > fox jumps over the lazy dog". Curiously, my NCR made-in-Germany Cherry keyboards from 1985 pass both tests with flying colors. I *knew* there was a reason that I really liked it (beside having F1-F10 on the left side and F11-F30 across the top). --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun May 6 16:01:48 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 17:01:48 -0400 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA680FA.28337.12EC0D2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4FA674A6.25359.FE9816@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FA6D9C7.5070803@brouhaha.com> <4FA680FA.28337.12EC0D2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FA6E6BC.5070200@telegraphics.com.au> On 06/05/12 4:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 May 2012 at 13:06, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Very few keyboards with either USB or PS/2 interfaces have more than >> 2-key rollover. There are almost always cases where a third key >> pressed simultaneously will cause a phantom fourth key. This doesn't >> mean that there aren't a lot of cases where three keys will work >> correctly, only that there are some cases that it will fail. Usually >> they do wire the "modifier" keys (shift, control, alt, etc.) so that >> they can't produce phantom keys, but some combinations of three or >> more "normal" keys will produce phantom keys. > > Two simple demonstrations of good keyboard encoding that I'm aware of > are these (the Model M fails both) > > 1. Press the ASDW keys and hold down. See if any other keys > register. > > 2. Press right and left shift and hold down. Type "The quick brown > fox jumps over the lazy dog". > > Since I don't have a USB keyboard (preferring model Ms for the feel), > how do USB keyboards fare? Apple Pro keyboard fails both. --Toby > > --Chuck > > > > From a50mhzham at gmail.com Sun May 6 16:09:22 2012 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 16:09:22 -0500 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA680FA.28337.12EC0D2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FA674A6.25359.FE9816@cclist.sydex.com> <4FA6D9C7.5070803@brouhaha.com> <4FA680FA.28337.12EC0D2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4fa6e8a1.06aa320a.495f.1ccf@mx.google.com> At 03:47 PM 5/6/2012, you wrote: >On 6 May 2012 at 13:06, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Very few keyboards with either USB or PS/2 interfaces have more than > > 2-key rollover. There are almost always cases where a third key > > pressed simultaneously will cause a phantom fourth key. This doesn't > > mean that there aren't a lot of cases where three keys will work > > correctly, only that there are some cases that it will fail. Usually > > they do wire the "modifier" keys (shift, control, alt, etc.) so that > > they can't produce phantom keys, but some combinations of three or > > more "normal" keys will produce phantom keys. > >Two simple demonstrations of good keyboard encoding that I'm aware of >are these (the Model M fails both) > >1. Press the ASDW keys and hold down. See if any other keys >register. asd asd asd asd I can't get a W when pressing asdw holding it down along with each preceding key. This is a PS/2 keyboard. I have lots of machines on this 8-port KVM and it doesn't speak USB. >2. Press right and left shift and hold down. Type "The quick brown >fox jumps over the lazy dog". HE QUCI BROWN OX UMP OVER HE Z OG. Mine fails that test. >Since I don't have a USB keyboard (preferring model Ms for the feel), >how do USB keyboards fare? >--Chuck 276 . [Science] It is very common to give natural language words technical meanings. --John McCarthy, NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From christopher1400 at gmail.com Thu May 3 14:50:37 2012 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 12:50:37 -0700 Subject: EPROM and EEPROM Programmers In-Reply-To: References: <20120502163507.O70331@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > > The thing I really find pointless, come to think of it are USB keyboards > and mice. I think it is reasonable to assume that a modern PC is going to > be connected to a keyboard and a mouse -- just one of each. So having a > speciifc conenctor for each of them doesn't seem to be a big problem. Why > over-complicate things?... I don't see the point other than making computers at thin as a credit card, but that is kinda pointless as you really have no upgradability on a system that is so thin you can run it through your printer. You can upgrade what, that 1.8" ZIF drive? that's about it as there is barely room for ram slots, and I've seen netbooks with the ram soldered on board, unupgradable as the systems are too thin to upgrade anything. -- C:\win Bad Command Or File Name C:\ From bojan89m at aim.com Fri May 4 05:34:14 2012 From: bojan89m at aim.com (Bojan) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 06:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: GlobalView for X Message-ID: <8CEF7F8961EC92F-2CAC-102DA@webmail-d151.sysops.aol.com> Hi Mike, I know that's old stuff, but I like. Do you know where I can find GlobalView for X, because links on corestore are so dead. If you still have it I would be thankful if you can send it to me. Thank on future answers and actions. Best regards From trasz at FreeBSD.org Fri May 4 08:18:26 2012 From: trasz at FreeBSD.org (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Edward_Tomasz_Napiera=B3a?=) Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 15:18:26 +0200 Subject: [NO REWARD WHATSOEVER] Looking for IBM, ANSI, and Sun doc In-Reply-To: References: <201204191344.q3JDikb0038718@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <806E7416-ED22-4486-A07D-0F5A5D8FBE74@FreeBSD.org> Wiadomo?? napisana przez William Donzelli w dniu 20 kwi 2012, o godz. 04:43: >> Does anybody have scans of any or all of the following? >> >> >> IBM >> 01. MVS/ESA Component Diagnosis and Logic: EXCP Processor (LY28-1477) >> 02. LY28-1487 >> 03. LY28-1488 >> 04. LC28-1166-5 > > IBM might get very unhappy about scans of "L" manuals kicking around the > net for free. Discretion may be in order. What are the "L" manuals? -- If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body? From pinball at telus.net Sat May 5 14:06:15 2012 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 12:06:15 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA57472.1070706@brouhaha.com> References: <4FA464E3.6050103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120504164034.T41503@shell.lmi.net> <20120505142110.GA9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201205051556.LAA02392@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120505163944.GC9903@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4FA568D5.5090300@dunnington.plus.com> <4FA57472.1070706@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FA57A27.1080407@telus.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> For example, an iPhone can pull far more current than USB guarantees >> (well over an amp), so it tests first. The proper charger has a >> couple of voltage dividers across the power such that the data +/- >> lines are held at specific voltages even at light load. If the >> voltage on each is within a specific (fairly narrow) range the iPhone >> knows it can pull at least an amp. A different range tells it 500mA. >> Else nothing. > > The iPad is obnoxious about this. If it can't get the extra current > it wants, it tells the user that it won't charge. It lies, though: > actually it does charge, but slowly. > > This had me in a panic when I first found out about it after having > flown somewhere. I assumed that I could charge it from my laptop, and > didn't bring the iPad charger. The first evening the battery was low, > so I plugged it into the laptop, and it told me that it wouldn't > charge. I thought I was out of luck for the whole trip, but it > actually did manage to charge overnight. > > They really should change the message to say that it will take a long > time to charge, rather than claiming that it won't charge at all. > > If you have it on and hooked up to a 1A USB charger (port or standard USB charger) while it won't charge, it won't really discharge (much ) either - so it isn't exactly lying - it is NOT charging if you are using it, but asleep or off it will charge (faster if completely off). John :-#)# From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat May 5 19:33:19 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 20:33:19 -0400 Subject: Need a PDP-8/I Bootable DECtape Message-ID: The RICM has the processor of their PDP-8/I functional after replacing or repairing 38 Flipchip modules and the core stack. We have lots of Dectapes that originally held data from a PDP-11, but nothing that is bootable on the 8/I. We tried the TC01 bootstrap with one of the PDP-11 tapes. It moves the tape to the first block and then gets a TIM (Timing Error), so the TC01 and the TU55 is at least partially alive. Can anyone supply a Dectape that would be bootable on this 4k machine, or tell us the procedure for making a bootable Dectape? http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/pdp-8-i -- Michael Thompson From christopher1400 at gmail.com Sat May 5 22:42:34 2012 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 20:42:34 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <20120505201006.I84381@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FA5A9C3.30306@mail.msu.edu> <20120505201006.I84381@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > > There used to be a time when some Mac fanatics would claim that the Mac > was a "better machine" because EVERY OEM peripheral available for it (both > of them) would "just work", whereas the thousands of third party > peripherals available for PC would require cabling and drivers. > Well, not so much. I've seen many network adapters, video card, processor upgrade boards, etc that required Mac drivers. My TwinTurbo 128 requires drivers to run best as well as my ATI XClaim VR128. Anyone who wanted ethernet faster than you would get over AAUI would want a PCI 100 Mb/s network adapter (KNE130TX seems to be what I've found most) needed drivers to even be detected in a Mac. Many processor upgrade boards required cabling to upgrade, along with drivers. PC Compatibility cards also. Now adays finding Mac support is somewhat easier (Hackintosh community making drivers for everything), but really as for stuff DESIGNED for Apple isn't really easier. -- C:\win Bad Command Or File Name C:\ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 6 16:22:15 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 14:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WHY? (Was: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA6827A.28893.1349CB3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20120506134007.W3078@shell.lmi.net> <4FA6827A.28893.1349CB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120506140528.G3078@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 6 May 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That should be "except when they're not". I've had a couple of PC > machines where an RS232 port was also on the front along with the USB > connector. WHY is the keyboard (and mouse) connector on the BACK? WHY was the power switch at the back? (I loved the PS/2 bellcrank linkage to put a power switch at the front with a long rod to the back!) When I set up the computer so that the connectors are where they belong, I can't get at the floppy drives. (I'm also not sure why the hard drive(s) needs to be at the front) When thin (LCD?) TVs came out, howcome all of the ads showed them hanging on the wall, but not having any of the requisite cables and accessory items (such as VCR)? OB_CC: likewise the hemipherical Apple. It's not such a "masterpiece of elegant design beauty" when you connect what is needed. Likewise, all of the iPOD ads always showed it being held at arms length overhead. Won't it work in other positions? If PADs are intended to be carried, howcome they don't have a handle, and a cover for the delicate screen. 'Course, with a folding screen cover, they now have the same form-factor as an ordinary clamshell. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun May 6 16:30:26 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 22:30:26 +0100 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA6E6BC.5070200@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4FA674A6.25359.FE9816@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FA6D9C7.5070803@brouhaha.com> <4FA680FA.28337.12EC0D2@cclist.sydex.com> <4FA6E6BC.5070200@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4FA6ED72.8010509@gmail.com> On 06/05/2012 22:01, Toby Thain wrote: > On 06/05/12 4:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 6 May 2012 at 13:06, Eric Smith wrote: >> >>> Very few keyboards with either USB or PS/2 interfaces have more than >>> 2-key rollover. There are almost always cases where a third key >>> pressed simultaneously will cause a phantom fourth key. This doesn't >>> mean that there aren't a lot of cases where three keys will work >>> correctly, only that there are some cases that it will fail. Usually >>> they do wire the "modifier" keys (shift, control, alt, etc.) so that >>> they can't produce phantom keys, but some combinations of three or >>> more "normal" keys will produce phantom keys. >> >> Two simple demonstrations of good keyboard encoding that I'm aware of >> are these (the Model M fails both) >> >> 1. Press the ASDW keys and hold down. See if any other keys >> register. >> >> 2. Press right and left shift and hold down. Type "The quick brown >> fox jumps over the lazy dog". >> >> Since I don't have a USB keyboard (preferring model Ms for the feel), >> how do USB keyboards fare? > Am I the only person who doesn't like a model "M". I put mine back in the loft and much prefer the softer touch of this HP USB board I am using now... > Apple Pro keyboard fails both. > > --Toby > PS my new HP had only USB ports and PCI-E sockets, but it appears that PCI-E serial, parallel and traditional SCSI cards are available... This seems fine to me, most folks don't need them, but you can have them if you want... >> >> --Chuck >> >> Dave. >> >> > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun May 6 17:00:05 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 19:00:05 -0300 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) References: , <4FA674A6.25359.FE9816@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FA6D9C7.5070803@brouhaha.com> <4FA680FA.28337.12EC0D2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <058601cd2bd3$a33e10e0$6600a8c0@tababook> > 2. Press right and left shift and hold down. Type "The quick brown > fox jumps over the lazy dog". In my Thinkpad T60 it fails some keys :oO From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 6 17:05:09 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 18:05:09 -0400 Subject: [NO REWARD WHATSOEVER] Looking for IBM, ANSI, and Sun doc In-Reply-To: <806E7416-ED22-4486-A07D-0F5A5D8FBE74@FreeBSD.org> References: <201204191344.q3JDikb0038718@billy.ezwind.net> <806E7416-ED22-4486-A07D-0F5A5D8FBE74@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: > What are the "L" manuals? The L is the "use code", and signifies a licensed product. Other use codes commonly seen are G for general use (IBM will give the manual away just for asking); S for sale (IBM will sell the manual to anyone); and Z (IBM internal use). So, if you get an IBM manual, look at the number -these use codes tell you how "secret" the document is. Note that these codes only apply to prefix codes that are four characters long. The second of the four tells you what kind of manual it is, and gets complicated. -- Will From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun May 6 17:44:44 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 15:44:44 -0700 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA680FA.28337.12EC0D2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4FA674A6.25359.FE9816@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FA6D9C7.5070803@brouhaha.com> <4FA680FA.28337.12EC0D2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FA6FEDC.10207@mail.msu.edu> On 5/6/2012 1:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Two simple demonstrations of good keyboard encoding that I'm aware of > are these (the Model M fails both) > > 1. Press the ASDW keys and hold down. See if any other keys > register. > > 2. Press right and left shift and hold down. Type "The quick brown > fox jumps over the lazy dog". > > Since I don't have a USB keyboard (preferring model Ms for the feel), > how do USB keyboards fare? > > --Chuck > Northgate Omnikey Ultra (PS/2) passes. (For test 1 I can hold down 9 other keys and the 10th still registers properly. I need more fingers.) I should try this again at work on Monday -- there I have an Ultra hooked up via a PS/2->USB adapter... - Josh From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun May 6 18:12:37 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 19:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA6ED72.8010509@gmail.com> References: <4FA674A6.25359.FE9816@cclist.sydex.com> <4FA6D9C7.5070803@brouhaha.com> <4FA680FA.28337.12EC0D2@cclist.sydex.com> <4FA6E6BC.5070200@telegraphics.com.au> <4FA6ED72.8010509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201205062312.TAA00903@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Am I the only person who doesn't like a model "M". No, you're not. I don't care for the weird resistance profile that's acquired the name "tactile feedback". I want to feel just steadily increasing back-pressure (ie, a simple spring) until the key strikes the hard stop at the end of its travel. In particular, no bump partway down and no mushy squish of substantially increased resistance for the last millimeter or so of travel. My favourite keyboard - though admittedly perhaps coloured rosy by nostalgic memory - was a particular model of Symbolics Lisp Machine keyboard I used in the late '80s. My second favourite, my favourite that is actually obtanium, is the Sun type-3. (When it's in good shape. A type-3 in bad shape borders on unusable, and I don't mean just distasteful to use; I mean it can actually be difficult to get keys to depress enough to register.) Mind you, I'll take a Model M over today's typical cheap crap keyboard, but that's not because I like it but because I dislike it less. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 18:59:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 16:59:47 -0700 Subject: WHY? (Was: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM In-Reply-To: <20120506140528.G3078@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FA6827A.28893.1349CB3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120506140528.G3078@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FA6AE03.24908.1DEAD90@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2012 at 14:22, Fred Cisin wrote: > WHY is the keyboard (and mouse) connector on the BACK? > WHY was the power switch at the back? (I loved the PS/2 bellcrank > linkage to put a power switch at the front with a long rod to the > back!) I don't know. On my bench I use a 4U rackmount enclosure, which is a tad better in that it's easy to get into (lift the lid) and USB is on the front, though I wish that PS/2 mouse and keyboard were also. Front-terminated video and sound wouldn't be too bad either. In today's "soft power switch" world, you're lucky if there's a mains disconnect switch on the power supply at all. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 19:08:08 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 17:08:08 -0700 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <201205062312.TAA00903@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <4FA6ED72.8010509@gmail.com>, <201205062312.TAA00903@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4FA6AFF8.25029.1E6520C@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2012 at 19:12, Mouse wrote: > > Am I the only person who doesn't like a model "M". Well, I learned to type on a typewriter (manual), so my keystrokes probably want to be deeper. Most modern keyboards don't have enough key travel for my taste. The model M is better than most--although I've heard that the IBM Displaywriter keyboard is much better in that respect. Old keyboards (going back to the 60s) for computers sometimes had a speaker mounted under the keyboard to provide a clunk-clunk sound (that double-eyeball DD60 display for the big CDC machines certainly did--even had a volume control). Tactile feedback is certainly necessary for fast typing--there are studies that have shown that. So you can keep your keyboard-on-a- touch screen. Touch typists learn to start with fingers resting on the home keys--which probably doesn't make capacitive touch keyboards very happy. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 6 20:21:35 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 21:21:35 -0400 Subject: Users of KED / KEX on the PDP-11 Message-ID: <4FA7239F.1060603@compsys.to> I would appreciate suggestions along with any information in regard to the uses of KED / KEX This note is addressed to those users who still make modifications to text files via KED / KEX. The number of such users may be so small (zero) that there is no interest in my five aspects of the proposed set of specifications at the very end of this post. Any and all comments will be appreciated. However, Johnny Billquist recently mentioned that the VT420 supports up to 48 vertical lines. This has provided the incentive along with the justification to support at least that many vertical lines under KED / KEX. After all, if an ALL DEC hardware system is being used, then even though a VT420 with 48 lines is not a supported hardware feature, often such new hardware does work. Normally, when I use a PDP-11 environment, I run the Ersatz-11 emulator. My video card, monitor, the rest of the hardware and the operating system (so far Windows 98SE and Windows XP) can support a full screen mode with the DOS version with either 50 vertical lines by 80 columns or 44 vertical lines by 132 columns. When the Win32 version is used, it is possible to initiate as: E11 /CONSIZE:80x60 to have a screen of either 60 vertical lines by 80 columns or 60 vertical lines by 132 columns. For both the DOS and the Win32 version, using the wide screen command (under KED / KEX): SET SCREEN 132 changes the number of columns to 132 text characters with the DOS version of E11 then reverting to 44 vertical lines (full screen mode must be used for 132 columns) while the Win32 version of E11 retains the same number of vertical lines (allowing up to 60 vertical lines - fewer vertical lines are allowed and the default is 24 vertical lines). While there might be valid reasons for using either the DOS version or the Win32 versions of Ersatz-11 with more than 24 vertical lines, but less then 44 vertical lines, I really do not see much point in doing so. Increasing the number of vertical lines by less than 20 lines does not seem like much of an advantage. If subsequent testing shows that other options of vertical line number between 24 lines and 44 lines can run correctly, then that will be considered a bonus. Unless there is a specific request for a specific option of lines by columns that is not listed below, no additions will be made to that list. NOTE that not all hardware / software combinations of a PC support 132 character text lines under the DOS version of E11. I searched for quite some time to find a video controller / monitor / cable connection to run under Windows XP which would support 132 character text lines. As far as I know, all Win32 versions of E11 support 132 character text lines. Depending on the screen setting for the monitor (i.e. the number of pixels), 24 lines can always be supported and around 48 lines can be supported with using screens of 1280 by 1024 pixels. If 60 lines are to be supported, a larger pixel count is required. A screen of 1800 by 1440 pixels has been found to easily support 60 lines under the Win32 version of Erstaz-11. But, before I freeze the specs for the changes to KED / KEX, some feedback from other users would be helpful. Just how many vertical lines would be useful? Is a somewhat compressed character set (only when using the DOS full screen version) a sufficient deterrent to having 50 vertical lines as opposed to 24 vertical lines? Of course, Ersatz-11 would need to be checked out to determine if 60 vertical lines are supported when KED / KEX are used. And, of course, there is always the possibility that technical considerations might prohibit support of 60 vertical lines when KED / KEX are used. And finally, is it essential that the version of KED / KEX which supports 60 vertical lines also support terminals with only 24 vertical lines? Or is it reasonable that the user know the physical characteristics of the terminal such as when a VT52 is used with K52.SAV and a VT100 is used with KED.SAV? Obviously, the current versions of KED / KEX will not support 60 vertical lines or I would not be writing this note. But, it might be very difficult to have KED / KEX support both 24 vertical lines and 60 vertical lines with the same code. In addition, a buffer must be present within KED / KEX which is large enough to hold all of the characters being displayed on the screen. When the maximum number of characters is 3168 characters (=24*132), that buffer is reasonable to accommodate. If the maximum number of characters is 7920 (=60*132), there may be insufficient room left for other requirements. The solution might be to locate the screen buffer elsewhere since, in particular, with the KEX version, there are some memory address locations which are not being used. One more point. Most of the time, I run 4 system jobs under RT-11 using KEX. The low memory required for each job is 801 words. This seems like substantially more than should be required. If the required number of words could be reduced by 352 words to just 449 words, would that be helpful? In summary, here are the specs thus far: (a) Enhance KED / KEX to support at least 50 vertical lines and up to 60 vertical lines if possible (b) If possible, the same versions of KED / KEX should support any number of vertical lines up to 60 vertical lines (c) If possible, the modified versions of KED / KEX should have as few differences as possible from the versions of KED / KED which support only 24 vertical lines (d) Support for different vertical lines will specifically include: - the standard DEC VT100 screens of: o 24 lines by 80 columns o 24 lines by 132 columns o 14 lines by 132 columns (no avo option) - the video cards on a PC running a PDP-11 under the DOS version of Ersatz-11 which supports these full screen options: o 24 lines of 80 columns o 24 lines of 132 columns o 50 lines of 80 columns o 44 lines by 132 columns - the normal windows support on a PC running a PDP-11 under the Win32 version of Ersatz-11 (tested on Windows 98SE and XP): o 24 lines by 80 columns o 24 lines by 132 columns o from 44 to 60 lines by 80 columns o from 44 to 60 lines by 132 columns - additional screen configurations if suggested - however, only two column sizes, 80 and 132 columns, will be supported (e) Reduce the low memory words required from 801 to 449 words for system jobs under a mapped RT-11 monitor as in: SRUN KEX.REL/LEVEL:n/TERMINAL:n/NAME:Kn (n = 1 to 6) Suggestions and any other information would be very much appreciated. Jerome Fine From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun May 6 20:39:41 2012 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 21:39:41 -0400 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA6AFF8.25029.1E6520C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3afb3d4c17f93ec2e9ad90be048bca89@bellsouth.net> >> > Am I the only person who doesn't like a model "M". Not at all. > Well, I learned to type on a typewriter (manual), so my keystrokes > probably want to be deeper. Most modern keyboards don't have enough > key travel for my taste. The model M is better than most- I'm pretty much the opposite. Despite the fact that I also learned on manual typewriters and also play the piano, I find the long travel of the Model M uncomfortable. As for the sound, I used to like the click on the VT100, but these days, a loud keyboard is very distracting. There's exactly one Model M in our open plan office and the moment it goes into use, I have to reach for noise- cancelling headphones *and* run music through them to drown it out. I know many people complain about laptop keyboards, but I've come to quite like them. BLS From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun May 6 21:03:30 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 23:03:30 -0300 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) References: <3afb3d4c17f93ec2e9ad90be048bca89@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <071701cd2bf5$beb7c970$6600a8c0@tababook> > I'm pretty much the opposite. Despite the fact that I also learned > on manual typewriters and also play the piano, I find the long > travel of the Model M uncomfortable. As for the sound, I used to > like the click on the VT100, but these days, a loud keyboard is > very distracting. There's exactly one Model M in our open plan > office and the moment it goes into use, I have to reach for noise- > cancelling headphones *and* run music through them to drown it > out. Same here. I do love the feeling of my model M. But in the speed I type (something around 500-600 char/min) the noise becomes unbearable. The thinkpad keyboard is way silent and very confortable, so I got one to my desktop (a kind of keyboard by IBM that is THE SAME keyboard of my notebook, plus numeric keyboard, etc...and the trackpoint, trackpad and USB hub From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 21:37:39 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 May 2012 19:37:39 -0700 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <3afb3d4c17f93ec2e9ad90be048bca89@bellsouth.net> References: <4FA6AFF8.25029.1E6520C@cclist.sydex.com>, <3afb3d4c17f93ec2e9ad90be048bca89@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4FA6D303.5096.26F3504@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2012 at 21:39, blstuart at bellsouth.net wrote: > I'm pretty much the opposite. Despite the fact that I also learned on > manual typewriters and also play the piano, I find the long travel of > the Model M uncomfortable. As for the sound, I used to like the click > on the VT100, but these days, a loud keyboard is very distracting. > There's exactly one Model M in our open plan office and the moment it > goes into use, I have to reach for noise- cancelling headphones *and* > run music through them to drown it out. I also play piano also, but it's a completely different skill, depending on the ability to moderate stroke force and speed, something that's completely irrelevant to computer keyboarding, not to mention the chording aspect. I've sometimes wondered if I could take the output of the MIDI keyboard here and work out some sort system of music-to-letters, not as abstract as Solresol. However, I'm convinced that I can't think that fast. The noise of a model M doesn't bother me, as I also have a Selectric III sitting by my desk here (now that's noisy!). If you've ever spent much time in a keypunch room, you're familiar with the much louder noise of a bunch of 026s or 029s chunking away. I prefer my NCR Cherry keyboard. Electrically, it's better and it's hard to beat the feel of a good Cherry keyswitch. I doubt that it understands USB. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun May 6 22:12:52 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 23:12:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA6D303.5096.26F3504@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FA6AFF8.25029.1E6520C@cclist.sydex.com> <3afb3d4c17f93ec2e9ad90be048bca89@bellsouth.net> <4FA6D303.5096.26F3504@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201205070312.XAA03795@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I also play piano also, but it's a completely different skill, > depending on the ability to moderate stroke force and speed, > something that's completely irrelevant to computer keyboarding, not > to mention the chording aspect. And timing. On a computer keyboard, for most purposes and to a very good approximation, only the order of keystrokes matters; their exact timing does not. Music is entirely different in that regard - indeed, if the timing of multiple keystrokes is close enough to simultaneous, order _doesn't_ matter. > I've sometimes wondered if I could take the output of the MIDI > keyboard here and work out some sort system of music-to-letters, not > as abstract as Solresol. However, I'm convinced that I can't think > that fast. I've considered just assigning a piano key to each keyboard key. I'd lose a few keys - this keyboard has 95 keys (unless I miscounted just now), so I'd end up losing 7, at least. I suspect I'd be better off with some kind of chord setup; reaching the whole keyboard for a key-for-key mapping would be a substantial slowdown. My hands can each span a little over an octave; an octave gives me 13 keys within easy reach of each hand. Not all 2^13 combinations are easy to play, by any stretch, but I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult to find a set of chords which could correspond to keys (or characters; I'm not sure whether I'd rather play keys or characters). And then there are the pedals as well.... As for speed...I don't think about individual keystrokes when typing normally as it is. With a bit of practice I'd expect most of the skill to move down into muscle memory the way my current typing has. Some one of these years :( I'll have to experiment. It'd be interesting to see if I can develop a mapping for which I can reach speeds anywhere near my QWERTY speeds. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Mon May 7 05:27:18 2012 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 11:27:18 +0100 Subject: Module recognition time! Again. Message-ID: <26AB549319A54E878E388A3487082502@vostro> Guys, Does anyone recognise this transistor module, presumably from a 60s computer? Many thanks, peter http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110840435635?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon May 7 08:19:09 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 14:19:09 +0100 Subject: FW: OLD-COMPUTERS.COM // donation mailing for the UK collectors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Folks, I don?t have room for these and in fact have to slim down my own collection, particularly my PETs, but anyone in the UK fancy a Superbrain and an Acorn R140? That machine?s worth collecting purely for the BSD side, AFAIK it was the only Acorn unix box. If Andrew is local-ish to me (Cambs, Suffolk) I can collect and store for a bit. Cheers A -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? ------ Forwarded Message From: Olivier Boisseau Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 14:17:36 +0200 To: Olivier Boisseau Subject: OLD-COMPUTERS.COM // donation mailing for the UK collectors Hi A kind visitor proposed to donate us an Intertec Superbrain, Amstrad PC-1512, Acorn R140 and Acorn RiscPC (see original email below). We don't need this donation right now at?old-computers.com . Do you want it ? If so please email DIRECTLY Andrew Bell at evoludo at gmail.com You must also agree with these important rules: * ?also this is a donation you will have to pay shipping costs or pick-up the donation at the donor's place * ?you must provide?www.old-computers.com ?with interesting pictures, info, etc. you might get from this donation * ?you must tell me when you finally get the donation as I can know if donation mailings are working and helpful * ?be nice and polite with this kind person This is a donation mailing sent to several collectors subscribed to?www.old-computers.com ?collectors list. Your are not alone on this proposition, so be quick! Best regards --- ORIGINAL EMAIL FROM Andrew Bell ---- I have several machines that I'm being forced to get rid of. It's sad to see them go, but I just don't have the space for my collection anymore. I have: Intertec Superbrain Amstrad PC-1512 Acorn R140 Acorn RiscPC These are all (afaik) full systems, including original VDU, keyboard, and (in the case of the RiscPC and Amstrad) mouse. I live in the UK, and would prefer to send these to collectors in the UK, so if you have a mailing list, would you be able to post these to it? This is urgent, as I've been given a deadline of a few days to get rid of these machines, or they will be going to the dump. The R140 is particularly interesting, as it ran an Acorn variant of BSD. These were my first computers, and I'd be heartbroken if I had to throw them away. Many thanks, Andrew Bell -- ------ End of Forwarded Message From ats at offog.org Mon May 7 08:32:23 2012 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 14:32:23 +0100 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <611F389D-1264-41A4-88E4-8F4EF1D2F327@gmail.com> (David Riley's message of "Sat, 5 May 2012 09:59:18 -0400") References: <4F9E7BA9.328.96E574@cclist.sydex.com> <611F389D-1264-41A4-88E4-8F4EF1D2F327@gmail.com> Message-ID: David Riley writes: > The 74HCU04 datasheet (the Philips/NXP one, anyway) has an application > circuit for it as a "poor man's amp", running it as an inverting > amplifier. Fairchild have an app note with further examples of this sort of thing: http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-88.pdf Of course, it's always possible to take a good idea too far: http://www.p-albatross.net/kousaku-2003.htm -- Adam Sampson From paco.linux at gmail.com Mon May 7 10:23:17 2012 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 17:23:17 +0200 Subject: cctalk@classiccmp.org Message-ID: Very bad year: http://semiaccurate.com/2012/05/04/amds-chuck-moore-has-passed-away/ Paco -- |_|0|_| |_|_|0| ??? |0|0|0| From feldman.r at comcast.net Mon May 7 12:21:09 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 17:21:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: WHY? (Was: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <55313374.75573.1336411269662.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> On 6 May 2012 at 14:22, Fred Cisin wrote: > WHY is the keyboard (and mouse) connector on the BACK? > WHY was the power switch at the back? ?(I loved the PS/2 bellcrank > linkage to put a power switch at the front with a long rod to the > back!) For my first PC/XT clone computer, I built my own case. I put the?floppies and power switch on the front and all of the ports on the side (the expansion cards ran from side-to side rather than front-to-back). Much easier to get to the cords that way and there were no wir es sticking out the front. Bob From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon May 7 12:30:55 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 14:30:55 -0300 Subject: WHY? (Was: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice) References: <55313374.75573.1336411269662.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <0c3c01cd2c77$30f42750$6600a8c0@tababook> >For my first PC/XT clone computer, I built my own case. I put the floppies >and power switch on the front and >all of the ports on the side (the >expansion cards ran from side-to side rather than front-to-back). Much >easier to >get to the cords that way and there were no wir es sticking out >the front. Hmm...My first PC I hadn't a case :) It was everything in a corner of a table, the board on top of some foam and the rest on the table...It was FUN :D From doc at vaxen.net Mon May 7 13:36:12 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 13:36:12 -0500 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4fa613df.2383440a.3af9.106f@mx.google.com> References: <4FA5A288.8030005@telegraphics.com.au> <201205060244.WAA11733@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FA5F59D.8030003@telegraphics.com.au> <201205060412.AAA14400@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4fa613df.2383440a.3af9.106f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4FA8161C.6080301@vaxen.net> On 5/6/12 1:02 AM, Lance Lyon wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Mouse >> USB is fine, in ts place. But I'm with tony in that I think that that >> place does not, possibly excepting some ridiculously space-constrained >> designs, include keyboards and mice. > > What the USB naysayers haven't said though is exactly why USB is not > suitable for keyboards and mice. Strictly regarding keyboards and mice, one HUGE win for USB over PS/2 is genuine hot-plug capacity. I've never personally blown a PS/2 port, but I have worked on computers with blown ports, and invariably the user/owner was prone to swapping keyboards with the machine running. I don't kow if that's an odds thing or cumulative damage, but in my experience the PS/2 port is just not hot-pluggable in the long run. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 13:49:59 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 11:49:59 -0700 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA8161C.6080301@vaxen.net> References: , <4fa613df.2383440a.3af9.106f@mx.google.com>, <4FA8161C.6080301@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4FA7B6E7.1640.CBB23D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2012 at 13:36, Doc Shipley wrote: > I've never personally blown a PS/2 port, but I have worked on > computers with blown ports, and invariably the user/owner was prone to > swapping keyboards with the machine running. I don't kow if that's an > odds thing or cumulative damage, but in my experience the PS/2 port is > just not hot-pluggable in the long run. I think that's mostly a design issue. In the MCU projects I've worked on using a PS/2 keyboard for input, I've never had an issue with hot-plugging. Quite often, I'll plug in a keyboard after the MCU program has started. Since outputs are all supposed to be open- collector, I don't see how damage could occur, unless it's from something like ESD. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon May 7 13:52:27 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 14:52:27 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA8161C.6080301@vaxen.net> References: <4FA5A288.8030005@telegraphics.com.au> <201205060244.WAA11733@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FA5F59D.8030003@telegraphics.com.au> <201205060412.AAA14400@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4fa613df.2383440a.3af9.106f@mx.google.com> <4FA8161C.6080301@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <969A5A98-D657-4C27-8B03-294084015AD2@gmail.com> On May 7, 2012, at 14:36, Doc Shipley wrote: >> What the USB naysayers haven't said though is exactly why USB is not >> suitable for keyboards and mice. > > Strictly regarding keyboards and mice, one HUGE win for USB over PS/2 is genuine hot-plug capacity. > > I've never personally blown a PS/2 port, but I have worked on computers with blown ports, and invariably the user/owner was prone to swapping keyboards with the machine running. I don't kow if that's an odds thing or cumulative damage, but in my experience the PS/2 port is just not hot-pluggable in the long run. TI actually has a fascinating app note on the various potential failure modes of ICs in hotplug situations. I'll have to see if I can find it when I'm back at my computer. It was a big eye-opener for me. - Dave From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Mon May 7 13:55:29 2012 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 11:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: <4FA5A2CB.8050504@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at May 5, 12 05:59:39 pm Message-ID: <1336416929.51227.YahooMailNeo@web162906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 2) There is not 'interrupt' facility./ The host machine (OK, the USB >inteface chip) has to keep on poollign the keyboard to see if a key has >changed state, and keep on pollign the mouse to see if it has moved. That >seesm to be totally the wrong thing to do.. Heck, even the HP9830 has an >intettupt on keypress. > >-tony >Actually, the HID (human interface device) class used by mice and keyboards does use an interrupt.? Also, on the device side, pretty much all the transfers can generate an interrupt, depending on how you configure the register.? Also, it's possible to just bypass all the pre-canned "device classes" and just drive the USB raw, which works just fine, and on many small processors is not much more work than driving the UART.? In fact, for some transmissions, it's simpler because you can get just one interrupt for a whole transmission, rather than buffering and error-checking a transmission one byte at at time. I'm not arguing that USB is as easy as a regular UART interface--it's not by a long shot. Dave > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon May 7 14:02:56 2012 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 12:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Module recognition time! Again. In-Reply-To: <26AB549319A54E878E388A3487082502@vostro> Message-ID: <1336417376.68685.YahooMailClassic@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 5/7/12, Peter Van Peborgh wrote: > Does anyone recognise this transistor module, presumably > from a 60s computer? I'm pretty sure this is a Burroughs module, but I don't know from what machine. --Bill From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon May 7 14:07:07 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 15:07:07 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA7B6E7.1640.CBB23D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4fa613df.2383440a.3af9.106f@mx.google.com> <4FA8161C.6080301@vaxen.net> <4FA7B6E7.1640.CBB23D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <94A25DBE-C8E7-40C4-A50B-F438724AEEAA@gmail.com> On May 7, 2012, at 14:49, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 7 May 2012 at 13:36, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> I've never personally blown a PS/2 port, but I have worked on >> computers with blown ports, and invariably the user/owner was prone to >> swapping keyboards with the machine running. I don't kow if that's an >> odds thing or cumulative damage, but in my experience the PS/2 port is >> just not hot-pluggable in the long run. > > I think that's mostly a design issue. In the MCU projects I've > worked on using a PS/2 keyboard for input, I've never had an issue > with hot-plugging. Quite often, I'll plug in a keyboard after the > MCU program has started. Since outputs are all supposed to be open- > collector, I don't see how damage could occur, unless it's from > something like ESD. In the TI app note I mentioned, it often comes down to the ESD protection diodes. If the data pins are energized before Vcc or ground, you can get some pretty significant current through those diodes. This isn't the app note I was looking for (I have it filed away somewhere, maybe at work), but it does cover the basics: http://ics.nxp.com/support/documents/logic/pdf/hot.swap.pdf - Dave From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon May 7 14:32:18 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 15:32:18 -0400 Subject: Module recognition time! Again. In-Reply-To: <1336417376.68685.YahooMailClassic@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <26AB549319A54E878E388A3487082502@vostro> <1336417376.68685.YahooMailClassic@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I'm pretty sure this is a Burroughs module, but I don't know > from what machine. Yes, from Burroughs. There is a guy in the upper Midwest tearing apart a circa 1960 tape drive for these things, and selling them, even though I tried to stop him. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 7 15:27:51 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 13:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WHY? (Was: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice) In-Reply-To: <0c3c01cd2c77$30f42750$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <55313374.75573.1336411269662.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <0c3c01cd2c77$30f42750$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <20120507132701.M40323@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 May 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Hmm...My first PC I hadn't a case :) It was everything in a corner of a > table, the board on top of some foam and the rest on the table...It was FUN > :D You had FOAM? I used a news-magazine. Computer Currents and MicroTimes were a convenient size. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon May 7 15:34:18 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 17:34:18 -0300 Subject: WHY? (Was: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice) References: <55313374.75573.1336411269662.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <0c3c01cd2c77$30f42750$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120507132701.M40323@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <0e2701cd2c90$cd8a0620$6600a8c0@tababook> Foam was cheaper (e.g.: Free)! :D --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:27 PM Subject: Re: WHY? (Was: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice) > On Mon, 7 May 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Hmm...My first PC I hadn't a case :) It was everything in a corner of >> a >> table, the board on top of some foam and the rest on the table...It was >> FUN >> :D > > You had FOAM? > I used a news-magazine. Computer Currents and MicroTimes were a > convenient size. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 7 15:45:32 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 13:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WHY? (Was: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice) In-Reply-To: <0e2701cd2c90$cd8a0620$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <55313374.75573.1336411269662.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <0c3c01cd2c77$30f42750$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120507132701.M40323@shell.lmi.net> <0e2701cd2c90$cd8a0620$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <20120507134419.T41375@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 May 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Foam was cheaper (e.g.: Free)! :D So were Computer Currents and MicroTimes! From doc at vaxen.net Mon May 7 15:47:02 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 15:47:02 -0500 Subject: WHY? (Was: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice) In-Reply-To: <20120507132701.M40323@shell.lmi.net> References: <55313374.75573.1336411269662.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <0c3c01cd2c77$30f42750$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120507132701.M40323@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FA834C6.9060300@vaxen.net> On 5/7/12 3:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 7 May 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Hmm...My first PC I hadn't a case :) It was everything in a corner of a >> table, the board on top of some foam and the rest on the table...It was FUN >> :D > > You had FOAM? > I used a news-magazine. Computer Currents and MicroTimes were a > convenient size. I have a motherboard on my bench at work, at this very moment, resting on disposable chopsticks. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 7 14:29:34 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 20:29:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA6D9C7.5070803@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 6, 12 01:06:31 pm Message-ID: > The reason is that they don't want the expense of adding a diode in the > matrix along with each switch, to prevent the phantom keys. I suspect it's also the physcial problem of adding all the diodes. It's OK if the kkeyboard is separate switches soldered to a PCB, but most are membrand devices, and it's non-trivial to add idodes to a membrane. FWIW, I think some older HP keyboards did have a diode in series with each swithc. I would ahve ot check the sckenatics, but off the top of my head the older HP-HIL one (46020), the one for the Integral and the one for the HP150 al ldid. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 7 14:32:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 20:32:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA6827A.28893.1349CB3@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 6, 12 01:54:02 pm Message-ID: > > USB ports are intrinsically much better than any other kind of port > > because the others are on the back of the machine, and USB ports are > > always on the front (except on some machines). > > That should be "except when they're not". I've had a couple of PC > machines where an RS232 port was also on the front along with the USB > connector. Is it really beyond people here (and others who often swap the devices plugged into their computer) to make little extension cables that bring the port conenctors from the back of the machine to somewhere more accessable? I have a such a cable ending in a DE9 plug conencted to oen fo the serial ports on this machien to plug in the cables from my HP handhelds, interface devices I am designing, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 7 14:47:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 20:47:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: WHY? (Was: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM In-Reply-To: <20120506140528.G3078@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 6, 12 02:22:15 pm Message-ID: > WHY is the keyboard (and mouse) connector on the BACK? It isn't on some of my machines. Not all the world is an IBM PC :-) Actually, having the keyboard conenctor on the front can be a pain if you have that stretchy helicaly-would cable (you know what I mean, like a telephone handset cable). WIth hte keyboard socket round the back, the ration of lengths from the keybaord right in front of the machine to elsewhere o nthe disk is less than it woudl be if the socket was at the front. So with the socket at the front, the cable gets stretched more and you move the keyboard aroudn and the plug is more likely to get pulled out accidentally. Anyoen else remeber the CBM PET 032SK, It has a separate keyboard conencred by such a cble to a DB25 socket o nthe front of the machine. Thing is, if you move the keybaord even a short distance from the machine, the plug pulls out... > WHY was the power switch at the back? (I loved the PS/2 bellcrank linkage HAving the swich contacts at the back meant they could be put inisde the PSU case, so there was no mains conenctions or wiring outside the PSU. As a counterexample the HP9100 and HP9800 calculators put the mains swtich on the keybaord assembly, you have to be careful not to touch the exposed mains connections (or worse, let them come into contact with a logic signa) when working on the machine. On the HP9800s, I normally dismantle the keybaord and remove the switch so I can put it in an insulated baggie to keep it out of the way when debuggign the rest of the mahcine > to put a power switch at the front with a long rod to the back!) And the reason to put the swtich lever on the back is to simplify the mechancial side... > > > When I set up the computer so that the connectors are where they belong, I > can't get at the floppy drives. (I'm also not sure why the hard drive(s) > needs to be at the front) But you should have a DC37 connecrtor on the 'front' where you can connect a coupld mopre drives, pointing whichever way you want them -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 7 14:52:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 20:52:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: WHY? (Was: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA6AE03.24908.1DEAD90@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 6, 12 04:59:47 pm Message-ID: > In today's "soft power switch" world, you're lucky if there's a mains > disconnect switch on the power supply at all. Most mains wall socekt outlets over here have internal double-pole swithces which are sueful if the device doesn't have a real mains swtich :-) For countries where that's not the case (and indeed over here if you are plugging the machine into a multi-way mains adapter), it's quite useful to make up a mains plug to IEC socket lead with a double spole swithc somewhere along it. Add a neon indicator too ifyou like. I have one that I use when I am repariign something and don't want to use the internal mains swich, perpahs because it weoule be difficult to handle it without accidentally tocuhign the terminals. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 7 15:34:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 21:34:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: FW: OLD-COMPUTERS.COM // donation mailing for the UK collectors In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at May 7, 12 02:19:09 pm Message-ID: > particularly my PETs, but anyone in the UK fancy a Superbrain and an Acorn > R140? That machine=B9s worth collecting purely for the BSD side, AFAIK it was > the only Acorn unix box. Was it? What about the A680? (No, I don't have one. I have narrowly missed getting one twice :-() -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 7 16:25:15 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 14:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120507142012.V41375@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 May 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Is it really beyond people here (and others who often swap the devices > plugged into their computer) to make little extension cables that bring > the port conenctors from the back of the machine to somewhere more > accessable? My SECOND retail product after splitting ElCompCo was a keyboard extension cable. But "hecklers" at my Computer Faire booth were "SCARED" that it might not have enough shielding. (to match their ultra power cables?) From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon May 7 16:44:22 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 17:44:22 -0400 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: References: <4F9E7BA9.328.96E574@cclist.sydex.com> <611F389D-1264-41A4-88E4-8F4EF1D2F327@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FA84236.2070105@verizon.net> On 05/07/2012 09:32 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > David Riley writes: > >> The 74HCU04 datasheet (the Philips/NXP one, anyway) has an application >> circuit for it as a "poor man's amp", running it as an inverting >> amplifier. > Fairchild have an app note with further examples of this sort of thing: > http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-88.pdf > > Of course, it's always possible to take a good idea too far: > http://www.p-albatross.net/kousaku-2003.htm > That is practically a reprint of the older by 25 years National Semi notes on CMOS and even older notes from RCA data back 30 years. I have both the national and RCA databooks from the era and yes it's there. The older CD4000 series parts were unbuffered complementary MOS (thats where the C came from ) and the first 74Cxx parts were basically the same parts in 74xx standard pin outs. FYI: RCA had a part that was raw uncommitted CMOS devices on die in a 12 pin package for for special analog uses. Handy part. All of a sudden we are talking about what I'd call not old but actually antique tech! Antique usually means greater than 25 years. FYI the oscillators using CMOS gates date back to the early 70s for extremely low power (for the era) time keeping and frequency synthesizer applications. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 7 16:55:54 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 15:55:54 -0600 Subject: WHY? (Was: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice) In-Reply-To: <4FA834C6.9060300@vaxen.net> References: <55313374.75573.1336411269662.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <0c3c01cd2c77$30f42750$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120507132701.M40323@shell.lmi.net> <4FA834C6.9060300@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4FA844EA.6070601@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/7/2012 2:47 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > > I have a motherboard on my bench at work, at this very moment, resting > on disposable chopsticks. You do realise the Fried Rice could be cold now. > Doc > Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 17:40:07 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 15:40:07 -0700 Subject: WHY? (Was: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice) In-Reply-To: <4FA834C6.9060300@vaxen.net> References: <55313374.75573.1336411269662.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <20120507132701.M40323@shell.lmi.net>, <4FA834C6.9060300@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4FA7ECD7.2862.19E61F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2012 at 15:47, Doc Shipley wrote: > I have a motherboard on my bench at work, at this very moment, > resting on disposable chopsticks. Always has been a sheet of plywood for me, including some multi- motherboard test jigs. You can drive screws and drill plywood. Matter of fact, there's a motherboard sitting over on another bench mounted to a sheet of plywood, complete with mounted power supply. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 7 17:56:05 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 15:56:05 -0700 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA85305.4010608@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> The reason is that they don't want the expense of adding a diode in the >> matrix along with each switch, to prevent the phantom keys. > I suspect it's also the physcial problem of adding all the diodes. It's > OK if the kkeyboard is separate switches soldered to a PCB, but most are > membrand devices, and it's non-trivial to add idodes to a membrane. As I said, cost. It's not that they don't do it because it is difficult; they don't do it because more difficulty means higher cost. If customers weren't willing to buy it without n-key rollover, they'd manage to include the diodes, by surface-mounting them on the back side of the PCB. However, the vast majority of customers are willing to buy the cheapest crap they can get. From mwichary at gmail.com Mon May 7 18:08:05 2012 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 16:08:05 -0700 Subject: VCF-East? In-Reply-To: <16EF7066-6A72-4024-8263-C8926351DCC8@classiccomputing.com> References: <16EF7066-6A72-4024-8263-C8926351DCC8@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: My photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwichary/7154377500/in/set-72157629991029475/lightbox/ Marcin From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 19:24:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 17:24:19 -0700 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA85305.4010608@brouhaha.com> References: , <4FA85305.4010608@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FA80543.16063.1FDCA39@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2012 at 15:56, Eric Smith wrote: > As I said, cost. It's not that they don't do it because it is > difficult; they don't do it because more difficulty means higher cost. > If customers weren't willing to buy it without n-key rollover, they'd > manage to include the diodes, by surface-mounting them on the back > side of the PCB. However, the vast majority of customers are willing > to buy the cheapest crap they can get. And some of the stuff today is *really* crap. I've got a fairly recent compact HP keyboard here that occasionally exhibits key bounce. (I've checked that I'm taking my meds, so it isn't me). It was new out of the box. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon May 7 20:12:48 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 21:12:48 -0400 Subject: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice = Re: EPROM and EEPROM In-Reply-To: <4FA7B6E7.1640.CBB23D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4fa613df.2383440a.3af9.106f@mx.google.com>, <4FA8161C.6080301@vaxen.net> <4FA7B6E7.1640.CBB23D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FA87310.4000503@telegraphics.com.au> On 07/05/12 2:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 May 2012 at 13:36, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> I've never personally blown a PS/2 port, but I have worked on >> computers with blown ports, and invariably the user/owner was prone to >> swapping keyboards with the machine running. I don't kow if that's an >> odds thing or cumulative damage, but in my experience the PS/2 port is >> just not hot-pluggable in the long run. > > I think that's mostly a design issue. In the MCU projects I've > worked on using a PS/2 keyboard for input, I've never had an issue > with hot-plugging. Quite often, I'll plug in a keyboard after the > MCU program has started. Since outputs are all supposed to be open- > collector, I don't see how damage could occur, unless it's from > something like ESD. Is it designed in or not? All you EEs should know. --Toby > > --Chuck > > From jws at jwsss.com Mon May 7 20:43:26 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 18:43:26 -0700 Subject: VCF-East? In-Reply-To: References: <16EF7066-6A72-4024-8263-C8926351DCC8@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: <4FA87A3E.2080708@jwsss.com> Great photos. Dave Mcguire is in trouble now, I can recognize him. Not to mention the extra bundle of power to his display in the middle of the room. Jim On 5/7/2012 4:08 PM, Marcin Wichary wrote: > My photos: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwichary/7154377500/in/set-72157629991029475/lightbox/ > > Marcin > > From evan at snarc.net Mon May 7 21:50:01 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 22:50:01 -0400 Subject: VCF-East? In-Reply-To: <4FA87A3E.2080708@jwsss.com> References: <16EF7066-6A72-4024-8263-C8926351DCC8@classiccomputing.com> <4FA87A3E.2080708@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4FA889D9.20805@snarc.net> > Great photos. Dave Mcguire is in trouble now, I can recognize him. > Not to mention the extra bundle of power to his display in the middle > of the room. We installed four circuits for his exhibit. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon May 7 22:05:05 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 00:05:05 -0300 Subject: VCF-East? References: <16EF7066-6A72-4024-8263-C8926351DCC8@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: <108101cd2cc7$63fa8950$6600a8c0@tababook> WHAT??? No MSX computers? :oD --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcin Wichary" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 8:08 PM Subject: Re: VCF-East? > My photos: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwichary/7154377500/in/set-72157629991029475/lightbox/ > > Marcin From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue May 8 00:32:45 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 02:32:45 -0300 Subject: [OT] looking for an Atari 5200 References: <16EF7066-6A72-4024-8263-C8926351DCC8@classiccomputing.com> <4FA87A3E.2080708@jwsss.com> <4FA889D9.20805@snarc.net> Message-ID: <118701cd2cdc$058964d0$6600a8c0@tababook> Sorry for the OT, but maybe someone has an old Atari 5200 to sell and wouldn't mind sending to Brazil?! Thanks a lot Alexandre --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From djg at pdp8online.com Mon May 7 18:44:02 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 19:44:02 -0400 Subject: Need a PDP-8/I Bootable DECtape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120507234402.GA30587@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Sat, May 05, 2012 at 08:33:19PM -0400, Michael Thompson wrote: > The RICM has the processor of their PDP-8/I functional after replacing > or repairing 38 Flipchip modules and the core stack. We have lots of > Dectapes that originally held data from a PDP-11, but nothing that is > bootable on the 8/I. We tried the TC01 bootstrap with one of the > PDP-11 tapes. It moves the tape to the first block and then gets a TIM > (Timing Error), so the TC01 and the TU55 is at least partially alive. > Can anyone supply a Dectape that would be bootable on this 4k machine, > or tell us the procedure for making a bootable Dectape? > Those new fangled IC's just aren't reliable. I only needed to repair 14 processor board plus one power supply board in my straight 8. Do you have any idea why so many? I didn't have to repair that many in my 8/I though didn't record the actual count. The only OS I know that will run in 4k is disk monitor system (it does run on dectape only systems despite the name). The paper tape images needed to build it are here. http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/software/paper_tapes/ See in the readme DEC_D8* files. Start with SBAF then use the load and save command for the other programs as desired. I tested with an emulator that the DF32 PIP works with DECtape. I recently built it for my DF32 so if you need more help I can provide. I can build a DECtape using an emulator and my PDP-8 but I can't test it since I don't have a TD controller. My copy of the manual is here. http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=35 Bitsavers has some also. From microcode at zoho.com Tue May 8 02:42:06 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 07:42:06 +0000 Subject: VCF-East? In-Reply-To: References: <16EF7066-6A72-4024-8263-C8926351DCC8@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: <742105007-1336462876-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-214748919-@b1.c1.bise3.blackberry> Thanks, nice pics. Somebody did a LOT of work cleaning and hauling all that stuff over there. -----Original Message----- From: Marcin Wichary Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 16:08:05 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: VCF-East? My photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwichary/7154377500/in/set-72157629991029475/lightbox/ Marcin From kelly at catcorner.org Tue May 8 04:35:07 2012 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly D. Leavitt) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 05:35:07 -0400 Subject: SCO Unix manuals available Message-ID: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B1B0@meow.catcorner.org> I have copies of the SCO manauls available. About 40 pounds worth of OS and development system stuff. This is all pre-OpenServer stuff. It is SCO UNIX 3.2v4.0 They are located in Wantage NJ. Come and get them or pay me to ship them. If anyone is iterested let me know, or they go the the recyclers. Kelly From iamcamiel at gmail.com Tue May 8 06:12:19 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 13:12:19 +0200 Subject: Module recognition time! Again. In-Reply-To: <1336417376.68685.YahooMailClassic@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <26AB549319A54E878E388A3487082502@vostro> <1336417376.68685.YahooMailClassic@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008a01cd2d0b$7095fb60$51c1f220$@gmail.com> > > Does anyone recognise this transistor module, presumably from a 60s > > computer? > > I'm pretty sure this is a Burroughs module, but I don't know from what machine. I think the B5500 had modules like this, though others might as well. Camiel From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 8 10:16:00 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 11:16:00 -0400 Subject: A little humor from my school Message-ID: <43BBA94F-A748-4943-972B-678BB63277A1@gmail.com> Some of you will find this amusing, anyway. This is a verbatim quote from our *current* graduate CS handbook: The department?s computing facilities include Sun and Silicon Graphics workstations, SGI Crimson and SPARC servers, and high performance graphics workstations (SGI Indigo2, Onyx Reality Engine2). The Office of Information Technology has over 400 workstations for general student use and several high-end machines including a Silicon Graphics Challenge XL 20 processor system. UMBC?s Imaging Research Center also provides high-end graphics support including production quality input/output devices and production software (Wavefront, Softimage, and Alias). While these are cool machines, I did see some of them at VCF East this past weekend. I'm pretty sure the school doesn't have them anymore. I guess weeding out old info isn't a top priority. :-) - Dave From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue May 8 10:17:53 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 17:17:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Pertec hard disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2012, Christian Corti wrote: > I'm looking for information (cabling, jumper settings) for a Pertec 8" SMD > drive, model DX332 (full model number: DX332-2-D-01). Is that drive really *that* rare? I need that info because the two drives I have contain software for a General Automation GA-16/440 that I want to extract. Apparently, there's no GA software at all (at least on the net); I'm still looking for SW and manuals for my SPC-16/65. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue May 8 10:19:40 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 17:19:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Signetics TWIN In-Reply-To: References: <4F6276F8.2080800@telus.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Apr 2012, Christian Corti wrote: > On Fri, 16 Mar 2012, Christian Corti wrote: >> Speaking of the Signetics 2650, does anyone have anything about the >> Signetics TWIN (e.g. manuals, schematics)? We have a bare system without >> floppy drive, but with a bunch of hard-sectored floppies that I have just >> dumped. They containt mostly SDOS related stuff, e.g. system sources, >> Pascal compiler etc. > > Is there really nothing? I'm especially interested in the floppy interface. I > suppose that the external drive box contained the controller that attaches to > the master CPU board. Since I don't have the drive box (nothing except the > base system) I can't revive the system at the moment. So I guess that I have the only system in this universe, that makes it pretty rare I think ;-) Christian From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 8 10:55:33 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 08:55:33 -0700 Subject: Pertec hard disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA941F5.4030404@bitsavers.org> On 5/8/12 8:17 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Thu, 3 May 2012, Christian Corti wrote: >> I'm looking for information (cabling, jumper settings) for a Pertec 8" SMD drive, model DX332 (full model number: DX332-2-D-01). > > Is that drive really *that* rare? It was near the end of Pertec's life making disk drives. I remember having a manual, but it would be with a box of other SMD drive manuals I haven't seen in over 15 years. There are a bunch of other mid 80's drive manuals that are hard to find, that was why I started trying to save them when I saw them. Looking back, I should have grabbed more of the Priam and DTC docs as they were dumped into the surplus channels back in the day as well. Jim Stevens may know of a stash of that kind of stuff in LA. There were still a couple of places up around where Pertec and Kennedy were that were still maintaining drives as of five years ago. I visited one of them to get the front loading Kennedy triple density 96xx series service manuals back then, and they had two Gaylords full of old disk and tape manuals. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue May 8 11:19:05 2012 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 09:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SGIs. Re: A little humor from my school In-Reply-To: <43BBA94F-A748-4943-972B-678BB63277A1@gmail.com> References: <43BBA94F-A748-4943-972B-678BB63277A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1336493945.24089.YahooMailNeo@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Yea my friend and I had the SGIs.. I hope you enjoyed them.. I had some demos on the 3D work and I had some videos on the graphics, but everyone had more fun playing BZflag. They are a lot of fun to play with. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Riley To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 11:16 AM Subject: A little humor from my school Some of you will find this amusing, anyway.? This is a verbatim quote from our *current* graduate CS handbook: The department?s computing facilities include Sun and Silicon Graphics workstations, SGI Crimson and SPARC servers, and high performance graphics workstations (SGI Indigo2, Onyx Reality Engine2). The Office of Information Technology has over 400 workstations for general student use and several high-end machines including a Silicon Graphics Challenge XL 20 processor system. UMBC?s Imaging Research Center also provides high-end graphics support including production quality input/output devices and production software (Wavefront, Softimage, and Alias). While these are cool machines, I did see some of them at VCF East this past weekend.? I'm pretty sure the school doesn't have them anymore.? I guess weeding out old info isn't a top priority. :-) - Dave From mross666 at hotmail.com Tue May 8 12:52:54 2012 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 17:52:54 +0000 Subject: VCFeast, H960s, and module cleaning. Message-ID: First I'm popping my head above the parapet for the first time in a while; ancient computer ventures *have* been proceeding at the Corestore, but less so in the past due to pressures of other activities. Hopefully I'll be much more active again starting now or soon! I had a great time exhibiting the 'live restoration' of one of my pdp-15s at VCFeast; put some names to faces and had a good time all round. We got from a machine in bits which hadn't been powered on in 15 years, to an operational 11/05 front-end, and a -15 CPU which passed smoke-test and had a working console. We failed to make the most optimistic scenario of toggling in short programs due to a dodgy memory box power supply. Not bad for a few hours work. Next time I'll reserve more space, I won't arrive late, and I'll put up barriers and a 'do not feed the hacker' sign! Couple of questions occurred to me as a result of this exercise. If something is just a bit mucky from years of service/storage, I'll give it a good clean but otherwise keep it as original as possible, with a patina of age. But if something is really ratty, especially with evidence of corrosion, I like to refurbish it completely to as near as-new shiny condition as possible, in every part and detail. With that in mind: 1. I have a good number of ratty old H960s with flaking paint & rust, mostly just in the bases. My projected 'refurbish' technique would involve drilling out the rivets holding the verticals to the bases and tops, shot-blasting/wire-brushing/otherwise-abrading all the old paint and rust back to smooth bare metal, and repainting them to give shiny like-new H960s. Does anyone know the exact size and spec of the rivets that hold an H960 together? Does anyone have any relatively shiny near-new H960s spare/for sale? (I know someone who might, I'm talking to him already!) 2. From time to time I've seen discussion of cleaning techniques for circuit boards here, specifically DEC modules, mostly the M-series flip-chip stuff. Was there ever any final conclusion as to the best way to cosmetically clean them? I've seen accounts of washing them in (?soapy?) water, rinsing, and leaving them in sun to dry. Is that really safe? Thoughts on other cleaning techniques? 3. When cosmetically refurbishing/repainting power supplies - H7420 etc. - does anyone have any good and valid suggestions for reproducing the DEC lettering and legends printed on the power supply? Photograph it and make some kind of transfer or sticker perhaps? How would one go about that? Thanks folks Mikehttp://www.corestore.org From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue May 8 13:16:05 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 20:16:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Pertec hard disk In-Reply-To: <4FA941F5.4030404@bitsavers.org> References: <4FA941F5.4030404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > It was near the end of Pertec's life making disk drives. I remember having a > manual, but it would be with a box of other SMD drive > manuals I haven't seen in over 15 years. There are a bunch of other mid 80's > drive manuals that are hard to find, that was why I > started trying to save them when I saw them. Looking back, I should have > grabbed more of the Priam and DTC docs as they were dumped > into the surplus channels back in the day as well. The reason why I am looking for the manuals or jumper settings is that I need to jumper the drive to hard sectored mode with 22 sectors/track, and I currently get hundreds of sectors per track at the moment, so that's wrong. Next, I have a second drive that is faulty. A service manual (I really like those from Fujitsu) would be very handy... if it existed. Christian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 8 13:47:01 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 14:47:01 -0400 Subject: Tek tube Message-ID: Can someone please look up in your Tek manuals: Is the tube in the 4010 a number 154-0624-11? Need to know today? -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 13:13:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 19:13:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: WHY? (Was: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice) In-Reply-To: <4FA834C6.9060300@vaxen.net> from "Doc Shipley" at May 7, 12 03:47:02 pm Message-ID: > I have a motherboard on my bench at work, at this very moment, > resting on disposable chopsticks. When I was repairing My HP9836CU, I put the motherboard on top of the monitor (!). The standard layout of the machine makes it quite difficult to work on, especially the video boards, which are hidden under the left-hand disk drive. And you can guess where the first fault I looking for was... Anyway, I had everything out of the casme anyway. I put the monitor on the bench and put the motherboard ont top of it (fortunately the monitor has a flat, plastic top). The video cable would jjust rraach. I then cvonencted the video boards to their ribbon cable and to the coaxial cabl to the vido output conenctor. Fitted the CPU board nad one memroy board in the I/O backplane slot, components facign forwards (this works fien for testing, it avoids using the I/O backplane and having an memory board flopping arround with no guides to support it). THe PSU board when nto its backplane conenctor, I connected a home-made cable to the input card edge, the other end to my bench PSU. I didn't bother with the keyboard or disk drives to start with. Anyway,I could power up the machien like that and easily put the logic analyser o nteh graphics board. It didn;t take long to find the fualty IC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 13:37:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 19:37:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA85305.4010608@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 7, 12 03:56:05 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> The reason is that they don't want the expense of adding a diode in the > >> matrix along with each switch, to prevent the phantom keys. > > I suspect it's also the physcial problem of adding all the diodes. It's > > OK if the kkeyboard is separate switches soldered to a PCB, but most are > > membrand devices, and it's non-trivial to add idodes to a membrane. > > As I said, cost. It's not that they don't do it because it is > difficult; they don't do it because more difficulty means higher cost. OK, I think we agree. The point I was making is that the cost is not just the cost of 100 diodes and soldering them in. It is difficult (not impossible, but difficult) to add components to a membrane. And a lot of keyboards, including the Type M and some horrible plastic modern thing I have here depend on the membranes being flat with no bumps (e.g. diodes). Yes, it's possible to get roudn both of those problems, but it adds to the complexity and cost. It is clearly possible to make a keyobard with full n key rollover But it would probalby be done most easilty (read cheaply) by not modifying the design of a normaal chap PC keybaord but by going to soemting like seaprate swithces on a PCB, or contacts that short traces on a PCB (like some old Commodore keyboards). One keyboard that certainyl could do full rollover (I ahve no diea if the interface microcontrolelr handled it properly) was the one for the HP9816. This is the only keyboard I have seen where hte switches are indicidually wired to IC inputs (in this case inputs on 4051 multiplexers) rather than being wired in a matrix. > If customers weren't willing to buy it without n-key rollover, they'd > manage to include the diodes, by surface-mounting them on the back side > of the PCB. However, the vast majority of customers are willing to buy > the cheapest crap they can get. Unfortuantely true... Something has to be wrong when I can buy a complete PC keyboard (101 keys + encoder electronics) for less than the cost of half a dozen (reasoanble quality) keyswitches. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 13:39:54 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 19:39:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA80543.16063.1FDCA39@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 7, 12 05:24:19 pm Message-ID: > And some of the stuff today is *really* crap. I've got a fairly > recent compact HP keyboard here that occasionally exhibits key > bounce. (I've checked that I'm taking my meds, so it isn't me). It > was new out of the box. It really saddens me when I compare the quality of HP stuff 20 or more years ago with stuff with that name on it today :-(. -tony From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue May 8 14:31:56 2012 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 20:31:56 +0100 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <4FA84236.2070105@verizon.net> References: <4F9E7BA9.328.96E574@cclist.sydex.com> <611F389D-1264-41A4-88E4-8F4EF1D2F327@gmail.com> <4FA84236.2070105@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4FA974AC.8050309@gifford.co.uk> allison wrote: > FYI: RCA had a part that was raw uncommitted CMOS devices on die in a 12 > pin package for for special analog uses. Handy part. The CD4007, wasn't it? Farnell still lists them, 46p each in DIP, 15p in SMD. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue May 8 14:54:57 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 20:54:57 +0100 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: References: <4FA80543.16063.1FDCA39@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > It really saddens me when I compare the quality of HP stuff 20 or more > years ago with stuff with that name on it today :-(. The lack of modern drivers for some of their printers, which are still going strong here, is a serious issue. I'm sorry for them that they made this stuff so well, it still works, I really am, but they should do the decent thing and support it. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better? Amelia: Yeah. Doctor: Everything's going to be fine. From jws at jwsss.com Tue May 8 15:06:31 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 13:06:31 -0700 Subject: Pertec hard disk In-Reply-To: <4FA941F5.4030404@bitsavers.org> References: <4FA941F5.4030404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FA97CC7.7030100@jwsss.com> Somewhere in my pile I might have a pertec disk drive manual. They started up trying to market the tape and disk products one last time before the CMC crash brought Pertec to its knees, and we evaluated both at a company I worked at. I haven't seen the box with the manuals either, but I know I have it. I can't promise anything, but i can try a search with some assistance from a friend to burrow thru my places out here. I will also send off to a friend in Australia that worked for GA when they made Pick equipment. Would the system be a Pick system they marketed? If so he may have access to the software from that side of the Pacific. When GA was imploding, the Aussies were not so stupid as to fold when they were told to because though they were "GA" they weren't actually the same entitly but were semi independent. So they may still have some stuff. Jim On 5/8/2012 8:55 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 5/8/12 8:17 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >> On Thu, 3 May 2012, Christian Corti wrote: >>> I'm looking for information (cabling, jumper settings) for a Pertec >>> 8" SMD drive, model DX332 (full model number: DX332-2-D-01). >> >> Is that drive really *that* rare? > > It was near the end of Pertec's life making disk drives. I remember > having a manual, but it would be with a box of other SMD drive > manuals I haven't seen in over 15 years. There are a bunch of other > mid 80's drive manuals that are hard to find, that was why I > started trying to save them when I saw them. Looking back, I should > have grabbed more of the Priam and DTC docs as they were dumped > into the surplus channels back in the day as well. > > Jim Stevens may know of a stash of that kind of stuff in LA. There > were still a couple of places up around where Pertec and Kennedy > were that were still maintaining drives as of five years ago. I > visited one of them to get the front loading Kennedy triple density > 96xx series service manuals back then, and they had two Gaylords full > of old disk and tape manuals. > > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue May 8 15:47:31 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 17:47:31 -0300 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) References: Message-ID: <167601cd2d5b$e21456b0$6600a8c0@tababook> > It really saddens me when I compare the quality of HP stuff 20 or more > years ago with stuff with that name on it today :-(. I'd love to have new HP gear. Unfortunately, it is all crap. No HP notebooks on my home. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 8 16:10:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 17:10:58 -0400 Subject: VCF-East? In-Reply-To: <4FA889D9.20805@snarc.net> References: <16EF7066-6A72-4024-8263-C8926351DCC8@classiccomputing.com> <4FA87A3E.2080708@jwsss.com> <4FA889D9.20805@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4FA98BE2.3030702@neurotica.com> On 05/07/2012 10:50 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Great photos. Dave Mcguire is in trouble now, I can recognize him. >> Not to mention the extra bundle of power to his display in the middle >> of the room. > > We installed four circuits for his exhibit. And I was STILL poppin' breakers. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 8 16:51:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 14:51:09 -0700 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <167601cd2d5b$e21456b0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: , <167601cd2d5b$e21456b0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FA932DD.963.16FBF9D@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2012 at 17:47, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I'd love to have new HP gear. Unfortunately, it is all crap. How about the commercial/professional HP workstations (e.g Z820)? Still HP engineered? Good quality? --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 8 17:40:16 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 23:40:16 +0100 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <167601cd2d5b$e21456b0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <3F90D7FB870E4C4796627F546E436870@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre > Souza - Listas > Sent: 08 May 2012 21:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB > keyboards+mice...) > > > > It really saddens me when I compare the quality of HP stuff > 20 or more > > years ago with stuff with that name on it today :-(. > > I'd love to have new HP gear. Unfortunately, it is all > crap. No HP > notebooks on my home. > Despite being a former Digital/Compaq worker who as sacked by HP I have a "new" (it's a factory re-furb) HP consumer style tower. The space saver keyboard was crap but the rest of the system is fine. I actually bought a new keyboard from our local supermarket. Its also labelled HP and that seems fine too. The keys have a nice length of trvael and I can type at a good speed. I have rang the HP support desk and they sorted out a minor problemI had. I think I would still buy a Lenovo laptop though as opposed to the HP... Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue May 8 19:04:13 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 20:04:13 -0400 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA9B47D.1030901@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/05/12 2:39 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> And some of the stuff today is *really* crap. I've got a fairly >> recent compact HP keyboard here that occasionally exhibits key >> bounce. (I've checked that I'm taking my meds, so it isn't me). It >> was new out of the box. > > It really saddens me when I compare the quality of HP stuff 20 or more > years ago with stuff with that name on it today :-(. But..... Hit Print! (Yes, that is really one of their marketing slogans.) --T > > -tony > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue May 8 19:07:16 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 20:07:16 -0400 Subject: Silk-screening logos and labels - Re: VCFeast, H960s, and module cleaning. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA9B534.1090309@telegraphics.com.au> > 3. When cosmetically refurbishing/repainting power supplies - H7420 etc. - does anyone have any good and valid suggestions for reproducing the DEC lettering and legends printed on the power supply? Photograph it and make some kind of transfer or sticker perhaps? How would one go about that? I imagine you could re-do it the way it was probably applied in the first place, through a silk screen. Talk to your local artist colony... :) --Toby > Thanks folks > Mikehttp://www.corestore.org From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue May 8 19:42:02 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 20:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF East pictures Message-ID: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2012/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue May 8 19:51:59 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 17:51:59 -0700 Subject: VCF East pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2012/ > Does the HP-1000 boot off of the 9895A? drive? If so, what does it run? http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2012/VCFE8-003L.jpg From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue May 8 19:58:40 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 20:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF East pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2012, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> >> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2012/ >> > > Does the HP-1000 boot off of the 9895A? drive? If so, what does it run? > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2012/VCFE8-003L.jpg The 2109E boots from the HPDrive emulator running on a Windoze box, pretending to be a 7925H. The OS is RTE-6/VM. The 2647A is connected as the system console, and a second BACI is connected to COM2 on the PC and the QCTerm terminal emulation software. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue May 8 20:16:17 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 18:16:17 -0700 Subject: VCF East pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 5:58 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > ? The 2109E boots from the HPDrive emulator running on a Windoze box, > pretending to be a 7925H. ?The OS is RTE-6/VM. ?The 2647A is connected as > the system console, and a second BACI is connected to COM2 on the PC and the > QCTerm terminal emulation software. > I should get setup with such an HPDrive emulator sometime. I probably have all of the pieces I need on my 2117F, including an 12821A HPIB CS/80 interface. Have you written up any notes on setting up the HPDrive emulator and disk image for this particular RTE-6/VM usage? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue May 8 20:23:24 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 21:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF East pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2012, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 5:58 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> >> ? The 2109E boots from the HPDrive emulator running on a Windoze box, >> pretending to be a 7925H. ?The OS is RTE-6/VM. ?The 2647A is connected as >> the system console, and a second BACI is connected to COM2 on the PC and the >> QCTerm terminal emulation software. >> > > I should get setup with such an HPDrive emulator sometime. I probably > have all of the pieces I need on my 2117F, including an 12821A HPIB > CS/80 interface. Have you written up any notes on setting up the > HPDrive emulator and disk image for this particular RTE-6/VM usage? I will be writing up the procedure, in the near future. There were a lot of sand traps, along the way. I'll post a note here when it's ready. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue May 8 20:27:41 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 20:27:41 -0500 Subject: FW: OLD-COMPUTERS.COM // donation mailing for the UK collectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FA9C80D.1090600@gmail.com> On 05/07/2012 03:34 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> particularly my PETs, but anyone in the UK fancy a Superbrain and an Acorn >> R140? That machine=B9s worth collecting purely for the BSD side, AFAIK it was >> the only Acorn unix box. > > Was it? What about the A680? (No, I don't have one. I have narrowly > missed getting one twice :-() Like the M4, I don't think the A680 was ever commercially released; it was just an in-house dev platform for RISCiX. There was the R260 which made it out into the wild though, and which ran much better than the R140 (more RAM, SCSI rather than ST506, and an ARM-3 rather than ARM-2 CPU). Oh, and the R225, which was a diskless, networked version of the R260 (I've never seen one of the latter, but I do have some docs for one in storage, so I assume it was commercially available too). Acorn were at one point working on a Xenix port for the 32016/BBC platforms, but to the best of my knowledge that one never made it out of the very early prototype stage. cheers Jules From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue May 8 21:17:42 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 22:17:42 -0400 Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <4FA974AC.8050309@gifford.co.uk> References: <4F9E7BA9.328.96E574@cclist.sydex.com> <611F389D-1264-41A4-88E4-8F4EF1D2F327@gmail.com> <4FA84236.2070105@verizon.net> <4FA974AC.8050309@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <4FA9D3C6.9070207@verizon.net> On 05/08/2012 03:31 PM, John Honniball wrote: > allison wrote: >> FYI: RCA had a part that was raw uncommitted CMOS devices on die in a >> 12 pin package for for special analog uses. Handy part. > > The CD4007, wasn't it? Farnell still lists them, 46p > each in DIP, 15p in SMD. > Without looking it up That may be it. I do remember it was in the 400x range. I'm not at all surprised it's still around as it was a useful part. Many others like the 555 timer, SA602 mixer, CA3046(dual diff pairs with current source), 741 opamp, 723regulator and many more are still common and have been around for a very long time. Allison From evan at snarc.net Tue May 8 21:19:06 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 22:19:06 -0400 Subject: VCF-East? In-Reply-To: <4FA98BE2.3030702@neurotica.com> References: <16EF7066-6A72-4024-8263-C8926351DCC8@classiccomputing.com> <4FA87A3E.2080708@jwsss.com> <4FA889D9.20805@snarc.net> <4FA98BE2.3030702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FA9D41A.7070705@snarc.net> >>> Great photos. Dave Mcguire is in trouble now, I can recognize him. Not to mention the extra bundle of power to his display in the middle of the room. >> We installed four circuits for his exhibit. > And I was STILL poppin' breakers. ;) If I recall correctly, you said the electrician admitted there was a bad breaker. Also, the thunderstorm probably didn't help. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue May 8 21:21:12 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 23:21:12 -0300 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) References: , <167601cd2d5b$e21456b0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FA932DD.963.16FBF9D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <183901cd2d8a$7ef059b0$6600a8c0@tababook> At least here in Brazil, too expensive to be considered. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 6:51 PM Subject: Re: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) > On 8 May 2012 at 17:47, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> I'd love to have new HP gear. Unfortunately, it is all crap. > > How about the commercial/professional HP workstations (e.g Z820)? > Still HP engineered? Good quality? > > --Chuck > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue May 8 22:11:48 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 23:11:48 -0400 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <183901cd2d8a$7ef059b0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: , <167601cd2d5b$e21456b0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FA932DD.963.16FBF9D@cclist.sydex.com> <183901cd2d8a$7ef059b0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FA9E074.7000408@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/05/12 10:21 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > At least here in Brazil, too expensive to be considered. > HP should have had the, uh, foresight to build a factory there, like Dell. --Toby > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 6:51 PM > Subject: Re: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB > keyboards+mice...) > > >> On 8 May 2012 at 17:47, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >>> I'd love to have new HP gear. Unfortunately, it is all crap. >> >> How about the commercial/professional HP workstations (e.g Z820)? >> Still HP engineered? Good quality? >> >> --Chuck >> > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 8 22:18:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 23:18:08 -0400 Subject: VCF-East? In-Reply-To: <4FA9D41A.7070705@snarc.net> References: <16EF7066-6A72-4024-8263-C8926351DCC8@classiccomputing.com> <4FA87A3E.2080708@jwsss.com> <4FA889D9.20805@snarc.net> <4FA98BE2.3030702@neurotica.com> <4FA9D41A.7070705@snarc.net> Message-ID: On May 8, 2012, at 10:19 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>>> Great photos. Dave Mcguire is in trouble now, I can recognize him. Not to mention the extra bundle of power to his display in the middle of the room. >>> We installed four circuits for his exhibit. >> And I was STILL poppin' breakers. ;) > > If I recall correctly, you said the electrician admitted there was a bad breaker. Also, the thunderstorm probably didn't help. You recall correctly. The power was great, and the wiring was done well. We had that one bad breaker that the electrician found, but it didn't give me any guff after that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue May 8 22:27:55 2012 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 23:27:55 -0400 Subject: More photos from VCF East 8 Message-ID: <201205090328.q493SBL6076594@billy.ezwind.net> More photos from VCF East 8 http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=466 Here is a link to the session materials Kelly L and I used for our workshop, Introduction to Vintage Software Restoration. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=467 From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue May 8 23:01:27 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 21:01:27 -0700 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA932DD.963.16FBF9D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <167601cd2d5b$e21456b0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FA932DD.963.16FBF9D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FA9EC17.7070106@mail.msu.edu> On 5/8/2012 2:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 May 2012 at 17:47, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> I'd love to have new HP gear. Unfortunately, it is all crap. > How about the commercial/professional HP workstations (e.g Z820)? > Still HP engineered? Good quality? I've been using a Z400-something at work for the past couple years and it seems to be nicely constructed. It's solid (very little in the way of cheap plastic panels), easy to service, and it's nice and heavy, something I haven't experienced in PC hardware in quite awhile. So far it hasn't given me a bit of trouble. Time of course will tell as to how the electronics hold up. (Then again, I also have had the same ugly Dell Precision something-or-other machine (Dual P4-Xeon! Rambus memory!) running in my office 24x7 since August of 2002 without any problems whatsoever, which is not what I would have predicted had you asked me when I got the thing...) - Josh > > --Chuck > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 9 00:08:08 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 01:08:08 -0400 Subject: More photos from VCF East 8 In-Reply-To: <201205090328.q493SBL6076594@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201205090328.q493SBL6076594@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:27 PM, B Degnan wrote: > More photos from VCF East 8 > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=466 You wrote: "Mike Ross' exhibit consisted of a PDP 11/05 used to interface with a PDP 15, in two racks. He demonstrated restoration techniques for attendees. I am not sure exactly what you call this console, there is no "PDP 15" on the panel, but I assume it's some kind of I/O device that complements the (not pictured) PDP 11/05 used to presumably bootstrap this thing." That _is_ the PDP-15 front panel - if you look, there are 18 data bits. The PDP-15 CPU was the large spread of M-series cards on the backplane above this front panel. Its memory was in a black box below (and not there for much of the weekend). The PDP-11/05 is self-contained and does the same job as the PDP-11/03 in a VAX-11/780 or the PDP-11 in various models of PDP-10. In each case, the PDP-11 boots from its own ROMs to start up enough code to feed the larger processor. In the case of the VAX-11/780, the PDP-11/03 has one RX01 floppy drive. I don't know what this PDP-11 uses, but there must be some local mass storage that's part of the scheme. Many I/O devices of the day did have blinkenlights indicators (usually installed at the top of the rack), but not this many control switches. -ethan From christopher1400 at gmail.com Tue May 8 14:35:06 2012 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 12:35:06 -0700 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: References: <4FA80543.16063.1FDCA39@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Do keep in mind I'm sure you don't see "Made in China" on the older stuff. From djg at pdp8online.com Tue May 8 18:48:06 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 19:48:06 -0400 Subject: Tek tube Message-ID: <201205082348.q48Nm6tG015375@hugin2.pdp8online.com> >Is the tube in the 4010 a number 154-0624-11? > My manual says it is a 154-0662-10 B010100 to B059999 154-0740-00 B060000 up Page 3 http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/misc/4010/sect5.pdf From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue May 8 20:25:18 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 21:25:18 -0400 Subject: Need a PDP-8/I Bootable DECtape Message-ID: > Those new fangled IC's just aren't reliable. I only needed to repair > 14 processor board plus one power supply board in my straight 8. > Do you have any idea why so many? I didn't have to repair that many > in my 8/I though didn't record the actual count. The system sat in an uncontrolled environment for many years. There was lots of corrosion on the boards. Some of the leads on the ICs were so rusted that you could pry them off the board. We replaced LOTS of 7474 and 7400 ICs, and quite a few 7410, 7420, and 7440 ICs. There were all kinds of interesting failure modes. > The only OS I know that will run in 4k is disk monitor system (it does > run on dectape only systems despite the name). I saw that, read the manual, and couldn't believe that a disk operating system would run with just a DECtape. > The paper tape images needed to build it are here. > http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/software/paper_tapes/ Got them now. > See in the readme DEC_D8* files. Start with SBAF then use the load > and save command for the other programs as desired. ?I tested with an > emulator that the DF32 PIP works with DECtape. We will give it a try if we successfully format a tape. > I recently built it for my DF32 so if you need more help I can provide. I > can build a DECtape using an emulator and my PDP-8 but I can't test it > since I don't have a TD controller. The TC01 controller doesn't have any ICs, so it just worked. Thanks for the help. -- Michael Thompson From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 9 02:12:01 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 00:12:01 -0700 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA9E074.7000408@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <167601cd2d5b$e21456b0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FA932DD.963.16FBF9D@cclist.sydex.com> <183901cd2d8a$7ef059b0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FA9E074.7000408@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4FAA18C1.90202@brouhaha.com> On 05/08/2012 08:11 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 08/05/12 10:21 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >> At least here in Brazil, too expensive to be considered. >> > > HP should have had the, uh, foresight to build a factory there, like > Dell. HP does (or did?) have a factory in Brazil. HP products with serial numbers nnnnBnnnnn were made in Brazil. (That's the old HP S/N scheme; not sure about the new one.) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed May 9 02:34:04 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 04:34:04 -0300 Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) References: , <167601cd2d5b$e21456b0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FA932DD.963.16FBF9D@cclist.sydex.com> <183901cd2d8a$7ef059b0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FA9E074.7000408@telegraphics.com.au> <4FAA18C1.90202@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1aad01cd2db6$2d1fa9c0$6600a8c0@tababook> Dunno. They had? Never heard of some HP product made in Brazil. All gear I have (at this time I have no HP computers beyond my HP9000/D210) is made somewhere else --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 4:12 AM Subject: Re: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) > On 05/08/2012 08:11 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 08/05/12 10:21 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> >>> At least here in Brazil, too expensive to be considered. >>> >> >> HP should have had the, uh, foresight to build a factory there, like >> Dell. > > HP does (or did?) have a factory in Brazil. HP products with serial > numbers nnnnBnnnnn were made in Brazil. (That's the old HP S/N scheme; > not sure about the new one.) > From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed May 9 07:33:12 2012 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 07:33:12 -0500 Subject: More photos from VCF East 8 In-Reply-To: References: <201205090328.q493SBL6076594@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4FAA6408.8040202@ubanproductions.com> One note on the PDP-11/03 booting the VAX-11/780, the PDP-11/03 first loads the microcode into the VAX-11/780, thereby defining the machine's higher level of operating code, then a bootstrap to load from a particular hard disk or tape is run. On most PDP-11s, the microcode is stored in ROMs or is hard wired. --tom On 5/9/12 12:08 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:27 PM, B Degnan wrote: >> More photos from VCF East 8 >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=466 > > You wrote: > > "Mike Ross' exhibit consisted of a PDP 11/05 used to interface with > a PDP 15, in two racks. He demonstrated restoration techniques for > attendees. I am not sure exactly what you call this console, there is > no "PDP 15" on the panel, but I assume it's some kind of I/O device > that complements the (not pictured) PDP 11/05 used to presumably > bootstrap this thing." > > That _is_ the PDP-15 front panel - if you look, there are 18 data bits. > The PDP-15 CPU was the large spread of M-series cards on the > backplane above this front panel. Its memory was in a black box below > (and not there for much of the weekend). The PDP-11/05 is self-contained > and does the same job as the PDP-11/03 in a VAX-11/780 or the PDP-11 > in various models of PDP-10. In each case, the PDP-11 boots from its > own ROMs to start up enough code to feed the larger processor. In the > case of the VAX-11/780, the PDP-11/03 has one RX01 floppy drive. I > don't know what this PDP-11 uses, but there must be some local mass > storage that's part of the scheme. > > Many I/O devices of the day did have blinkenlights indicators (usually installed > at the top of the rack), but not this many control switches. > > -ethan > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 9 08:10:39 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 06:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF East pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2012, Mike Loewen wrote: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2012/ That PDP-15 console is just a thing of beauty. *sighs* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 9 09:34:39 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 10:34:39 -0400 Subject: Need a PDP-8/I Bootable DECtape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FAA807F.8010009@neurotica.com> On 05/08/2012 09:25 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> The only OS I know that will run in 4k is disk monitor system (it does >> run on dectape only systems despite the name). > > I saw that, read the manual, and couldn't believe that a disk > operating system would run with just a DECtape. Remember, the DECtape (both -I and -II) appear to the host system as block-structured, random-access devices, even though their physical implementation is sequential access. They were even marketed as "the tape that acts like a disk". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed May 9 09:35:53 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 07:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tek tube In-Reply-To: <201205082348.q48Nm6tG015375@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <1336574153.64635.YahooMailClassic@web184515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 5/8/12, David Gesswein wrote: > From: David Gesswein > Subject: Re: Tek tube > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2012, 4:48 PM > >Is the tube in the 4010 a number > 154-0624-11? > > > My manual says it is a 154-0662-10 B010100 to B059999 > 154-0740-00 B060000 up > > Page 3 > http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/misc/4010/sect5.pdf > The 154-0624-11 was used in the Tektronix 611 display. Bob From mross666 at hotmail.com Wed May 9 10:53:47 2012 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 15:53:47 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 105, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Message: 9 > Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 01:08:08 -0400 > From: Ethan Dicks > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: More photos from VCF East 8 > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:27 PM, B Degnan wrote: > > More photos from VCF East 8 > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=466 > > You wrote: > > "Mike Ross' exhibit consisted of a PDP 11/05 used to interface with > a PDP 15, in two racks. He demonstrated restoration techniques for > attendees. I am not sure exactly what you call this console, there is > no "PDP 15" on the panel, but I assume it's some kind of I/O device > that complements the (not pictured) PDP 11/05 used to presumably > bootstrap this thing." > > That _is_ the PDP-15 front panel - if you look, there are 18 data bits. > The PDP-15 CPU was the large spread of M-series cards on the > backplane above this front panel. Its memory was in a black box below > (and not there for much of the weekend). The PDP-11/05 is self-contained > and does the same job as the PDP-11/03 in a VAX-11/780 or the PDP-11 > in various models of PDP-10. In each case, the PDP-11 boots from its > own ROMs to start up enough code to feed the larger processor. In the > case of the VAX-11/780, the PDP-11/03 has one RX01 floppy drive. I > don't know what this PDP-11 uses, but there must be some local mass > storage that's part of the scheme. Yes and no. On a pdp-15, the 11/05 is more a front-end than a console/bootstrap processor; it doesn't need to load microcode or any such thing. Any pdp-15 can start up from paper tape (there's usually a reader/punch immediately above the -15 console, was not installed at VCF) - heck, there's even a dedicated 'Read-in' switch on the console which initiates that boot. On the -15 I exhibited, the mass storage *did* rely on the -11; an RK11 talked to two RK05s (also not taken to VCF to make system easier to handle), and a Unichannel 15-to-Unibus interface gives the -15 direct access to the RK subsystem in 18-bit mode. On my other pdp-15, mass storage is all native; it has an RP15 (disk) and TC59 (tape) controller. That system had an 11/40 front-end, but it was only used for communications devices. It's a much bigger restoration project as I only got hold of it after it had been deinstalled; quite a few cables cut, and every single -11 compatible component (the 11/40, power supplies etc) had been robbed by the site engineer for spares. > Many I/O devices of the day did have blinkenlights indicators (usually installed > at the top of the rack), but not this many control switches. The RP15, TC59, and FP15 all have a good crop of blinkenlights. What I really want to get hold of is a TC15 DECtape control! > Message: 26 > Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 06:10:39 -0700 (PDT) > From: Gene Buckle > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: VCF East pictures > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Tue, 8 May 2012, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2012/ > > That PDP-15 console is just a thing of beauty. *sighs* Would it be bad form to admit at this point that I have two of them? :-D Mike From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Wed May 9 11:04:07 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 09:04:07 -0700 Subject: More photos from VCF East 8 In-Reply-To: <4FAA6408.8040202@ubanproductions.com> References: <201205090328.q493SBL6076594@billy.ezwind.net> <4FAA6408.8040202@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <00bd01cd2dfd$5d78b520$186a1f60$@comcast.net> I was told the load from hard disk was page fault the swapped the desired data back into memory. Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Uban Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 5:33 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: More photos from VCF East 8 One note on the PDP-11/03 booting the VAX-11/780, the PDP-11/03 first loads the microcode into the VAX-11/780, thereby defining the machine's higher level of operating code, then a bootstrap to load from a particular hard disk or tape is run. On most PDP-11s, the microcode is stored in ROMs or is hard wired. --tom On 5/9/12 12:08 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:27 PM, B Degnan wrote: >> More photos from VCF East 8 >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=466 > > You wrote: > > "Mike Ross' exhibit consisted of a PDP 11/05 used to interface with > a PDP 15, in two racks. He demonstrated restoration techniques for > attendees. I am not sure exactly what you call this console, there is > no "PDP 15" on the panel, but I assume it's some kind of I/O device > that complements the (not pictured) PDP 11/05 used to presumably > bootstrap this thing." > > That _is_ the PDP-15 front panel - if you look, there are 18 data bits. > The PDP-15 CPU was the large spread of M-series cards on the backplane > above this front panel. Its memory was in a black box below (and not > there for much of the weekend). The PDP-11/05 is self-contained and > does the same job as the PDP-11/03 in a VAX-11/780 or the PDP-11 in > various models of PDP-10. In each case, the PDP-11 boots from its own > ROMs to start up enough code to feed the larger processor. In the > case of the VAX-11/780, the PDP-11/03 has one RX01 floppy drive. I > don't know what this PDP-11 uses, but there must be some local mass > storage that's part of the scheme. > > Many I/O devices of the day did have blinkenlights indicators (usually > installed at the top of the rack), but not this many control switches. > > -ethan > > From holm at freibergnet.de Wed May 9 11:47:08 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 18:47:08 +0200 Subject: Dilog DQ614 Controller and RT11.. Message-ID: <20120509164708.GB92368@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, I have some cards here I want to build a PDP11 from, at the current that's something around an KDF11-A CPU (22bit). Currently I have problems with some Dilog Controller, this is an DQ614 that emulates 4 RL02 Drivers out of two 20MB MFM disks (Microcience HH725). I can install and successfully boot RT11SB.SYS and RT11FB.SYS but not RT11XM oder RT11XB. XXDP2.5 is working fine. Nowhere in the Dilog Documentation is something mentioned about 18 or 16 bit addressing limitations of that controller, the pinout clearly has 22 bits. (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dilog/) I have an RQDX3 with 2 TEAC FD55-GFR-184 Floppies on this system too, I can boot RT11XM oder RT11XB (same files!) from there fine... If I try that from DL0 or DL1 I'll always get a trap to the ODT (0002), regardless if I use the Dilogs own Bootloader or that from an 11/53 or an 11/73 CPU. Does someone here know of that problem? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed May 9 11:07:04 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 12:07:04 -0400 Subject: More photos from VCF East 8 In-Reply-To: References: <201205090328.q493SBL6076594@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Hi, The '11/05 -- when used to boot; it doesn't have to be used in the boot process -- is used to connect RK05s to the PDP-15. I can give a whole long spiel as to what the '11 is actually used for, but I'd just be echoing information garnered from documentation on BitSavers. Plus, I believe that Mr. Ross would quite possibly know much more than I. Cheers, Christian On 9 May 2012 01:08, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:27 PM, B Degnan wrote: >> More photos from VCF East 8 >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=466 > > You wrote: > > ?"Mike Ross' exhibit consisted of a PDP 11/05 used to interface with > ?a PDP 15, in two racks. He demonstrated restoration techniques for > ?attendees. I am not sure exactly what you call this console, there is > ?no "PDP 15" on the panel, but I assume it's some kind of I/O device > ?that complements the (not pictured) PDP 11/05 used to presumably > ?bootstrap this thing." > > That _is_ the PDP-15 front panel - if you look, there are 18 data bits. > The PDP-15 CPU was the large spread of M-series cards on the > backplane above this front panel. ?Its memory was in a black box below > (and not there for much of the weekend). ?The PDP-11/05 is self-contained > and does the same job as the PDP-11/03 in a VAX-11/780 or the PDP-11 > in various models of PDP-10. ?In each case, the PDP-11 boots from its > own ROMs to start up enough code to feed the larger processor. ?In the > case of the VAX-11/780, the PDP-11/03 has one RX01 floppy drive. ?I > don't know what this PDP-11 uses, but there must be some local mass > storage that's part of the scheme. > > Many I/O devices of the day did have blinkenlights indicators (usually installed > at the top of the rack), but not this many control switches. > > -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 9 12:15:24 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 10:15:24 -0700 Subject: More photos from VCF East 8 In-Reply-To: <4FAA6408.8040202@ubanproductions.com> References: <201205090328.q493SBL6076594@billy.ezwind.net> <4FAA6408.8040202@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <4FAAA62C.9030406@brouhaha.com> Tom Uban wrote: > One note on the PDP-11/03 booting the VAX-11/780, the PDP-11/03 first loads the microcode > into the VAX-11/780, thereby defining the machine's higher level of operating code, then > a bootstrap to load from a particular hard disk or tape is run. On an 11/780, the only microcode loaded by the 11/03 is patches or diagnostics. The main microcode is in bipolar PROMs. There is only a very small amount of microcode RAM in an 11/780, not enough to hold the entire microcode. The 11/785 uses RAM for the entire microcode, so it works as you described. From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed May 9 12:49:45 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 13:49:45 -0400 Subject: Dilog DQ614 Controller and RT11.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have some cards here I want to build a PDP11 from, at the current > that's something around an KDF11-A CPU (22bit). > Currently I have problems with some Dilog Controller, this is an DQ614 > that emulates 4 RL02 Drivers out of two 20MB MFM disks (Microcience HH725). > I can install and successfully boot RT11SB.SYS and RT11FB.SYS but not > RT11XM oder RT11XB. XXDP2.5 is working fine. > Nowhere in the Dilog Documentation is something mentioned about 18 or 16 > bit addressing limitations of that controller, the pinout clearly has 22 > bits. > (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dilog/) > I have an RQDX3 with 2 TEAC FD55-GFR-184 Floppies on this system too, I > can boot RT11XM oder RT11XB (same files!) from there fine... > If I try that from DL0 or DL1 I'll always get a trap to the ODT (0002), > regardless if I use the Dilogs own Bootloader or that from an 11/53 or an > 11/73 CPU. Which version RT11XM? If you boot RT11XM from the RQDX3, can you read/write (as a data disk) from DQ614 DL: ? Tim. From RichA at vulcan.com Wed May 9 12:54:21 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 17:54:21 +0000 Subject: More photos from VCF East 8 In-Reply-To: References: <201205090328.q493SBL6076594@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B2E35E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 10:08 PM On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 11:27 PM, B Degnan wrote: >> More photos from VCF East 8 >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=466 > You wrote: > "Mike Ross' exhibit consisted of a PDP 11/05 used to interface with > a PDP 15, in two racks. He demonstrated restoration techniques for > attendees. I am not sure exactly what you call this console, there is > no "PDP 15" on the panel, but I assume it's some kind of I/O device > that complements the (not pictured) PDP 11/05 used to presumably > bootstrap this thing." > That _is_ the PDP-15 front panel - if you look, there are 18 data > bits. The PDP-15 CPU was the large spread of M-series cards on the > backplane above this front panel. Its memory was in a black box below > (and not there for much of the weekend). The PDP-11/05 is > self-contained and does the same job as the PDP-11/03 in a VAX-11/780 > or the PDP-11 in various models of PDP-10. In each case, the PDP-11 > boots from its own ROMs to start up enough code to feed the larger > processor. In the case of the VAX-11/780, the PDP-11/03 has one RX01 > floppy drive. I don't know what this PDP-11 uses, but there must be > some local mass storage that's part of the scheme. Only the KL-10 uses an 11/40 as a boot processor like the 11/03 in a 780. The KS-10 uses an 8080, and earlier models booted directly from paper tape or DECtape; it's not clear to me yet whether a KI-10 could boot directly from disk, but I tend to doubt it based on what I'm seeing in ours. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From holm at freibergnet.de Wed May 9 13:53:39 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 20:53:39 +0200 Subject: Dilog DQ614 Controller and RT11.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120509185339.GC92368@beast.freibergnet.de> Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > I have some cards here I want to build a PDP11 from, at the current > > that's something around an KDF11-A CPU (22bit). > > Currently I have problems with some Dilog Controller, this is an DQ614 > > that emulates 4 RL02 Drivers out of two 20MB MFM disks (Microcience HH725). > > I can install and successfully boot RT11SB.SYS and RT11FB.SYS but not > > RT11XM oder RT11XB. XXDP2.5 is working fine. > > Nowhere in the Dilog Documentation is something mentioned about 18 or 16 > > bit addressing limitations of that controller, the pinout clearly has 22 > > bits. > > (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dilog/) > > I have an RQDX3 with 2 TEAC FD55-GFR-184 Floppies on this system too, I > > can boot RT11XM oder RT11XB (same files!) from there fine... > > If I try that from DL0 or DL1 I'll always get a trap to the ODT (0002), > > regardless if I use the Dilogs own Bootloader or that from an 11/53 or an > > 11/73 CPU. > > Which version RT11XM? V5.7 > > If you boot RT11XM from the RQDX3, can you read/write (as a data disk) from DQ614 DL: ? > > Tim. Yes. This works flawlessly. I first tought, that the loader from the DQ614 doesn't support 22 Bits, but the 11/53 or the 11/73 I've got lately have their own bootroms that are supporting RL02s. The same Problem with them.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed May 9 14:25:05 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 19:25:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: WTD: 16-bit SCSI PC Card Message-ID: <1833064924.194428.1336591505506.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Does anyone have a spare 16-bit SCSI PC C ard (PCMCIA) adapter and dongle they would be willing to part with? I have an Adaptec 1460D card, but it has an 8-bit SCSI data path, and I need a card with a 16-bit data path to use with an old Nikon slide scanner that I have. Please reply directly to me at feldman.r at comcast.net . Thanks, Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 9 13:30:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 19:30:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: FW: OLD-COMPUTERS.COM // donation mailing for the UK collectors In-Reply-To: <4FA9C80D.1090600@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at May 8, 12 08:27:41 pm Message-ID: > > Was it? What about the A680? (No, I don't have one. I have narrowly > > missed getting one twice :-() > > Like the M4, I don't think the A680 was ever commercially released; it was > just an in-house dev platform for RISCiX. > > There was the R260 which made it out into the wild though, and which ran I thought the R260 was an A540 with RSICix installed, the hardware was the same. Whereas the A680 is tolly differnt from any other Acorn ARM machine. I am pretty sure some A680s got out to universities (and I don't just mean Cambridge). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 9 13:08:43 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 19:08:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: discrete transistor computer In-Reply-To: <4FA974AC.8050309@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at May 8, 12 08:31:56 pm Message-ID: > > FYI: RCA had a part that was raw uncommitted CMOS devices on die in a 12 > > pin package for for special analog uses. Handy part. > > The CD4007, wasn't it? Farnell still lists them, 46p > each in DIP, 15p in SMD. I thought the 4007 was a normal 14 pin package. I can't think of anyting in a 12 pin DIP (was it a circular metal can, I wonder?) The 4007 is certainly a useful IC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 9 13:36:49 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 19:36:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: <4FA9E074.7000408@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at May 8, 12 11:11:48 pm Message-ID: > > On 08/05/12 10:21 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > > > At least here in Brazil, too expensive to be considered. > > > > HP should have had the, uh, foresight to build a factory there, like Dell. I thought they did. I have seen HP calcualtors with 'made in Brazil' on them,. and a 'B' in the serial number. Old HP serial numbers have a letter in them that gives the coutry of manufacture. A = America (USA), B = Brazil, F = France, G = (West) Germany, 'Q' or 'U' =s England/United Kingdom, S = Singapore, etc. Mind you, this doesn't imply that HP had a factory in the speiifeid country. Ecan in the classic era, some products were built by other companies. I have seen 'J' (Japan) in the serial number of an 'HP' dot matrix printer which was clearly an Epson with different firmwre and an HPIL interface board added. And 'K' (Korea) on a monitor which was clearly a Samsung chassis built to an HP sprcification (It had connectors for an HP-HIL touchscreen option, etc). It was not built like a 'real' HP, and was downright painful to repair... But I think they did have a factory in Brazil -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 9 13:13:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 19:13:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: n-key rollover (was Re: What's the point of USB keyboards+mice...) In-Reply-To: from "John Many Jars" at May 8, 12 08:54:57 pm Message-ID: > > It really saddens me when I compare the quality of HP stuff 20 or more > > years ago with stuff with that name on it today :-(. > > The lack of modern drivers for some of their printers, which are still > going strong here, is a serious issue. It's no problem here. The HP computers which were designed to work with said printers are going strong too :-) > > I'm sorry for them that they made this stuff so well, it still works, > I really am, but they should do the decent thing and support it. At least HP sold programmer's manuals for their classic printers to let you write your own drivers if you wanted to. Which is more than can be said of some companies... -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 9 14:33:52 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 12:33:52 -0700 Subject: Dilog DQ614 Controller and RT11.. In-Reply-To: <20120509185339.GC92368@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120509185339.GC92368@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Yes. This works flawlessly. > I first tought, that the loader from the DQ614 doesn't support 22 Bits, but > the 11/53 or the 11/73 I've got lately have their own bootroms that are > supporting RL02s. The same Problem with them.. > If it works when booting from the DU controller but not the DL controller, isn't there some COPY/BOOT command you need to issue when you copy the RT11XM or RT11XB to the DL controller disk to install the correct boot loader? Did you already do that the same way as when you successfully got it to boot RT11SB.SYS and RT11FB.SYS from the DL controller? I forget the correct syntax for that command without looking it up. -Glen From lists at loomcom.com Wed May 9 14:43:11 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 15:43:11 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) Message-ID: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> Hi folks, First I'd just like to say it's good to be back. I think I first joined Classiccmp in 1998-ish, and I've been on-again off-again as time and life has permitted participation in the hobby. Following a very long time spent off the list, it's really good to finally be back. I've missed this place a lot. Now, for the meat... Last year I was offered a PDP-11/35 by a friend who was cleaning out his shed in preparation for a move back to the Bay Area. I haven't had any PDP-11s in a long time (unfortunately!), so I jumped at the offer. He moved it down here two weeks ago, and I picked it up. It's seen better days, that's for sure. Time, the climate, mice, and spiders all did some damage. On first sight I was scared there wouldn't be anything salvageable. But I was in luck, the physical damage was largely confined to the metal chassis, which is covered in surface rust and dirt. I've started to work on cleaning it up and restoring it, and I'm documenting the process here: http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/index.html I haven't done very much yet other than disassembly and a little surface cleaning. My next priority will be to get the power supply out so I can inspect it, clean it (if needed), and start testing it on my workbench. Eventually I want to take care of the chassis by sandblasting it and re-painting it. That will be a while, though. Anyway, I hope I'll be able to bounce debugging questions off folks here as I go along. And if anyone local to me (San Francisco Bay Area) would be willing to lend a hand now and again, that would be fantastic. I may need some help by the time I get around to applying power. One downside to this is that it has rekindled my DEC-lust to levels not seen since 2000. A real pity - over the years I've had tons (probably literally) of DEC gear come and go through my collection, but I've kept almost none of it due to lack of a permanent, owned home for it all. But now that I'm settling down and I have some time again, I wish I'd kept a lot of it. Such is life - you never really appreciate what you have until it's gone :) At least it has all gone to other collectors, and not to the scrappers! -Seth From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed May 9 15:29:56 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 16:29:56 -0400 Subject: TI-99/4A in PA Message-ID: <075D3571-0D86-42E9-A789-206B75182EDE@gmail.com> http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/sys/3002690385.html Unopened, $50. Near Philadelphia (Montgomery County, PA). Just in case anyone wants it (I don't). - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 9 15:45:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 16:45:53 -0400 Subject: Dilog DQ614 Controller and RT11.. In-Reply-To: References: <20120509185339.GC92368@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FAAD781.4050802@neurotica.com> On 05/09/2012 03:33 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > If it works when booting from the DU controller but not the DL > controller, isn't there some COPY/BOOT command you need to issue when > you copy the RT11XM or RT11XB to the DL controller disk to install the > correct boot loader? Did you already do that the same way as when you > successfully got it to boot RT11SB.SYS and RT11FB.SYS from the DL > controller? I forget the correct syntax for that command without > looking it up. COPY/BOOT:dd DL0:RT11xx.SYS ddn: Where: dd = device name (DL, DU..) n = device number to write to xx = RT11 monitor name (SJ, XM..) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From holm at freibergnet.de Wed May 9 15:51:21 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 22:51:21 +0200 Subject: Dilog DQ614 Controller and RT11.. In-Reply-To: References: <20120509185339.GC92368@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120509205121.GE92368@beast.freibergnet.de> Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > Yes. This works flawlessly. > > I first tought, that the loader from the DQ614 doesn't support 22 Bits, but > > the 11/53 or the 11/73 I've got lately have their own bootroms that are > > supporting RL02s. The same Problem with them.. > > > > If it works when booting from the DU controller but not the DL > controller, isn't there some COPY/BOOT command you need to issue when > you copy the RT11XM or RT11XB to the DL controller disk to install the > correct boot loader? Did you already do that the same way as when you > successfully got it to boot RT11SB.SYS and RT11FB.SYS from the DL > controller? I forget the correct syntax for that command without > looking it up. > > -Glen Yes. copy/boot rt11xb.sys dl0: for example. Same command for rt11fb ans rt11xb or rt11xm... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 9 16:08:58 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 16:08:58 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: Hi Seth, If you have any hardware questions, I'll be glad to offer phone support. I have spares for most of the parts also. Beware the jumpers! Paul On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Hi folks, > > First I'd just like to say it's good to be back. I think I first joined > Classiccmp in 1998-ish, and I've been on-again off-again as time and > life has permitted participation in the hobby. Following a very long > time spent off the list, it's really good to finally be back. I've > missed this place a lot. > > Now, for the meat... > > Last year I was offered a PDP-11/35 by a friend who was cleaning out his > shed in preparation for a move back to the Bay Area. I haven't had > any PDP-11s in a long time (unfortunately!), so I jumped at the offer. > He moved it down here two weeks ago, and I picked it up. > > It's seen better days, that's for sure. Time, the climate, mice, and > spiders all did some damage. On first sight I was scared there wouldn't > be anything salvageable. But I was in luck, the physical damage was > largely confined to the metal chassis, which is covered in surface rust > and dirt. > > I've started to work on cleaning it up and restoring it, and I'm > documenting the process here: > > ?http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/index.html > > I haven't done very much yet other than disassembly and a little surface > cleaning. My next priority will be to get the power supply out so I can > inspect it, clean it (if needed), and start testing it on my workbench. > > Eventually I want to take care of the chassis by sandblasting it and > re-painting it. That will be a while, though. > > Anyway, I hope I'll be able to bounce debugging questions off folks here > as I go along. And if anyone local to me (San Francisco Bay Area) would > be willing to lend a hand now and again, that would be fantastic. I may > need some help by the time I get around to applying power. > > One downside to this is that it has rekindled my DEC-lust to levels not > seen since 2000. A real pity - over the years I've had tons (probably > literally) of DEC gear come and go through my collection, but I've kept > almost none of it due to lack of a permanent, owned home for it all. > But now that I'm settling down and I have some time again, I wish I'd > kept a lot of it. Such is life - you never really appreciate what you > have until it's gone :) At least it has all gone to other collectors, > and not to the scrappers! > > -Seth From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 9 16:20:03 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 16:20:03 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: I just looked at the pics and comfiguration. Do you have the RK11-C to control the Diablo 30? I have a drive here but not sure about the controller. I don't thinh the RK11-d will work on that drive, and I didn't see eother in the pic. The BA11-D box is nice ans easier to work with in some ways than the BA11-F. I see it has moss in it, which is cool, but I still like core in that era. thanks, Paul On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Hi folks, > > First I'd just like to say it's good to be back. I think I first joined > Classiccmp in 1998-ish, and I've been on-again off-again as time and > life has permitted participation in the hobby. Following a very long > time spent off the list, it's really good to finally be back. I've > missed this place a lot. > > Now, for the meat... > > Last year I was offered a PDP-11/35 by a friend who was cleaning out his > shed in preparation for a move back to the Bay Area. I haven't had > any PDP-11s in a long time (unfortunately!), so I jumped at the offer. > He moved it down here two weeks ago, and I picked it up. > > It's seen better days, that's for sure. Time, the climate, mice, and > spiders all did some damage. On first sight I was scared there wouldn't > be anything salvageable. But I was in luck, the physical damage was > largely confined to the metal chassis, which is covered in surface rust > and dirt. > > I've started to work on cleaning it up and restoring it, and I'm > documenting the process here: > > ?http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/index.html > > I haven't done very much yet other than disassembly and a little surface > cleaning. My next priority will be to get the power supply out so I can > inspect it, clean it (if needed), and start testing it on my workbench. > > Eventually I want to take care of the chassis by sandblasting it and > re-painting it. That will be a while, though. > > Anyway, I hope I'll be able to bounce debugging questions off folks here > as I go along. And if anyone local to me (San Francisco Bay Area) would > be willing to lend a hand now and again, that would be fantastic. I may > need some help by the time I get around to applying power. > > One downside to this is that it has rekindled my DEC-lust to levels not > seen since 2000. A real pity - over the years I've had tons (probably > literally) of DEC gear come and go through my collection, but I've kept > almost none of it due to lack of a permanent, owned home for it all. > But now that I'm settling down and I have some time again, I wish I'd > kept a lot of it. Such is life - you never really appreciate what you > have until it's gone :) At least it has all gone to other collectors, > and not to the scrappers! > > -Seth From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 9 16:20:41 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 14:20:41 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <4FAADFA9.7060603@bitsavers.org> On 5/9/12 12:43 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/index.html > The disk controller is an Advanced Electronics Design 2200, which has a nice set of blinkinlights on the front. Where is the 10mb disk drive mounted? I wasn't aware that the 2200 could run anything other than diablo-interface drives. Bob Rosenbloom is also in the process of restoring an 11/35. From lists at loomcom.com Wed May 9 17:02:43 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 18:02:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: References: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20120509220243.GA7346@mail.loomcom.com> * On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 04:20:03PM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote: > I just looked at the pics and comfiguration. Do you have the RK11-C to > control the Diablo 30? I have a drive here but not sure about the > controller. I don't thinh the RK11-d will work on that drive, and I > didn't see eother in the pic. Unfortunately, no. The controller for the Diablo 30 was not included. According to the Unibus field guide, it wants an M7255-YA, which is listed as "Modified M7255 for Diablo series 30 disk drives". > The BA11-D box is nice ans easier to work with in some ways than the > BA11-F. I see it has moss in it, which is cool, but I still like core > in that era. Agreed. I'd love a core stack, but I'm happy just to have a system at all, so I'll try not to be too picky :-) -Seth From lists at loomcom.com Wed May 9 17:11:51 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 18:11:51 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: <4FAADFA9.7060603@bitsavers.org> References: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> <4FAADFA9.7060603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120509221151.GA7701@mail.loomcom.com> * On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 02:20:41PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > On 5/9/12 12:43 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > > http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/index.html > > > > The disk controller is an Advanced Electronics Design 2200, which has a nice set > of blinkinlights on the front. Where is the 10mb disk drive mounted? I wasn't aware that > the 2200 could run anything other than diablo-interface drives. Aha! Thanks, Al, this clears up a real mystery. I was going purely on what my friend told me. He thought the AED 2200 was a 10MB winchester, and I haven't dug into it any further (haven't de-racked it or even researched it yet), so I just went with his assumption. Further, I was unhappy to find that the Diablo Series 30 did not have an RK11-D controller. I assumed it had gotten scrapped and that the Diablo 30 would be useless. Now it comes together - the AED2200 _is_ the controller for the Diablo, and there is _no_ 10MB winchester. Thanks for that. I'll update the page now that it all makes sense. -Seth From lists at loomcom.com Wed May 9 17:15:13 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 18:15:13 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: <20120509220243.GA7346@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> <20120509220243.GA7346@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20120509221513.GA7747@mail.loomcom.com> * On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 06:02:43PM -0400, Seth Morabito wrote: > * On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 04:20:03PM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote: > > I just looked at the pics and comfiguration. Do you have the RK11-C to > > control the Diablo 30? I have a drive here but not sure about the > > controller. I don't thinh the RK11-d will work on that drive, and I > > didn't see eother in the pic. > > Unfortunately, no. [...] Paul, I take it back. My previous statement was incorrect. Al Kossow set me straight on the disk controller. The controller for the Diablo Series 30 is the AED 2200 Disk Controller mounted at the bottom of the rack. So that clears up my mystery. (Or at least, part of it. I still need to investigate the AED2200 and see how it connects to the Unibus.) -Seth From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed May 9 17:16:48 2012 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 18:16:48 -0400 Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? Message-ID: <201205092217.q49MH58T003526@billy.ezwind.net> There was some debate at VCF East whether this "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 is a bubble memory card (pic below). The card was on display with my IBM PC 5150 exhibit. I originally pulled it from an IBM 5155 portable. http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ibm/5155/ibm_256KB_memory_card_6407740.jpg Typically you don't see 32-pin 64K RAM chips on a ISA card. That does not make it bubble memory though, so I put this out to the esteemed CCTECH community for answers/ideas. I do not have a technical reference manual, but I do have the IBM 64/256KB Memory Expansion Option manual. That ain't it. Date codes on some of the chips are from 1984. The memory chips are marked 6119927 IBM-14 PQ ESD 1 H28 708016 I found this from a web search for IBM 6407740: IBM-14 PQ ESD 64KB 32-PIN MEMORY MODULE 5150/5175 ...so, whadda we gots ? Thanks Bill From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 9 17:22:40 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 15:22:40 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: <20120509221151.GA7701@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> <4FAADFA9.7060603@bitsavers.org> <20120509221151.GA7701@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <4FAAEE30.6020307@bitsavers.org> On 5/9/12 3:11 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Now it comes together - the AED2200 _is_ the controller for the Diablo, > and there is _no_ 10MB winchester. > It is essentially a clone of the RK-11C Unfortunately, I don't have any docs for it. I did have one a LONG time ago. Another manual that I wish I had saved. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 9 17:23:51 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 15:23:51 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: <20120509221513.GA7747@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> <20120509220243.GA7346@mail.loomcom.com> <20120509221513.GA7747@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <4FAAEE77.3050600@bitsavers.org> On 5/9/12 3:15 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > So that clears up my mystery. (Or at least, part of it. I still need to > investigate the AED2200 and see how it connects to the Unibus.) > Daisy-chained Unibus cable through a slot in the back of the chassis. From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 9 17:31:36 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 17:31:36 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: <20120509221513.GA7747@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> <20120509220243.GA7346@mail.loomcom.com> <20120509221513.GA7747@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > * On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 06:02:43PM -0400, Seth Morabito wrote: >> * On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 04:20:03PM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote: >> > I just looked at the pics and comfiguration. Do you have the RK11-C to >> > control the Diablo 30? I have a drive here but not sure about the >> > controller. I don't thinh the RK11-d will work on that drive, and I >> > didn't see eother in the pic. >> >> Unfortunately, no. [...] > > Paul, > > I take it back. My previous statement was incorrect. Al Kossow set me > straight on the disk controller. > > The controller for the Diablo Series 30 is the AED 2200 Disk Controller > mounted at the bottom of the rack. > > So that clears up my mystery. (Or at least, part of it. I still need to > investigate the AED2200 and see how it connects to the Unibus.) > > -Seth They are probably conected with a Unibus cable- BC11A-xx. XX= length in feet Paul From lists at loomcom.com Wed May 9 17:45:43 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 18:45:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: <4FAAEE30.6020307@bitsavers.org> References: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> <4FAADFA9.7060603@bitsavers.org> <20120509221151.GA7701@mail.loomcom.com> <4FAAEE30.6020307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120509224543.GA8089@mail.loomcom.com> * On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 03:22:40PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > On 5/9/12 3:11 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > >Now it comes together - the AED2200 _is_ the controller for the Diablo, > >and there is _no_ 10MB winchester. > > > > It is essentially a clone of the RK-11C > Unfortunately, I don't have any docs for it. I did have one a LONG time ago. > Another manual that I wish I had saved. Isn't that always the way. I hate to think of all the things I wish I'd saved. I will probably pull this out of the rack next and start trying to investigate it. It was closest to the ground, and I'm worried it will have the most corrosion. -Seth From lists at loomcom.com Wed May 9 18:02:31 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 19:02:31 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: <4FAAEE77.3050600@bitsavers.org> References: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> <20120509220243.GA7346@mail.loomcom.com> <20120509221513.GA7747@mail.loomcom.com> <4FAAEE77.3050600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120509230231.GA8264@mail.loomcom.com> * On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 03:23:51PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > On 5/9/12 3:15 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > >So that clears up my mystery. (Or at least, part of it. I still need to > >investigate the AED2200 and see how it connects to the Unibus.) > > > > Daisy-chained Unibus cable through a slot in the back of the chassis. Brilliant. I actually have that cable! Now I just need to figure out what slot it came out of. That shouldn't be too hard since I have the backplanes removed already (I'm assuming it's going to be slot 15 A-B, but I have already discovered what assuming does.) Thanks very much for your help, -Seth From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 18:02:53 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 16:02:53 -0700 Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? In-Reply-To: <201205092217.q49MH58T003526@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201205092217.q49MH58T003526@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4FAA952D.30159.177859B@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2012 at 18:16, B Degnan wrote: > There was some debate at VCF East whether this "IBM 256KB Memory > Card" P/N 6407740 is a bubble memory card (pic below). The card was > on display with my IBM PC 5150 exhibit. I originally pulled it from > an IBM 5155 portable. > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ibm/5155/ibm_256KB_memory_card_6407740. > jpg > > Typically you don't see 32-pin 64K RAM chips on a ISA card. That does > not make it bubble memory though, so I put this out to the esteemed > CCTECH community for answers/ideas. Nope, they're IBM 64KB memory modules. Google on '6119927 IBM" for more clues. I think it's in my O&A. I can check if you'd like. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed May 9 19:55:17 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 20:55:17 -0400 Subject: Dilog DQ614 Controller and RT11.. In-Reply-To: <20120509205121.GE92368@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120509185339.GC92368@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120509205121.GE92368@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FAB11F5.1010001@compsys.to> >Holm Tiffe wrote: >>Glen Slick wrote: > >>>On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> >> >>>Yes. This works flawlessly. >>>I first tought, that the loader from the DQ614 doesn't support 22 Bits, but >>>the 11/53 or the 11/73 I've got lately have their own bootroms that are >>>supporting RL02s. The same Problem with them. >>> >>If it works when booting from the DU controller but not the DL >>controller, isn't there some COPY/BOOT command you need to issue when >>you copy the RT11XM or RT11XB to the DL controller disk to install the >>correct boot loader? Did you already do that the same way as when you >>successfully got it to boot RT11SB.SYS and RT11FB.SYS from the DL >>controller? I forget the correct syntax for that command without >>looking it up. >> >Yes. copy/boot rt11xb.sys dl0: for example. Same command for rt11fb ans >rt11xb or rt11xm... > Once you are able to BOOT RT11FB on the DL0: device, you can issue the command: BOOT RT11XM and it should perform a so-called software boot - IF all the files are correct. You do NOT need to set up the boot block on DL0: to perform a software boot of RT11XM. Are you able to check that your files are correct on the DL0: device. The command: DIFF/BINARY DL0:*.* DU0:*.* will check all the same files with the same names on both devices. Other than DUX.SYS which is used by DU0:RT11XM.SYS when booted on the DU0: device and DLX.SYS which is used by DL0:RT11XMN.SYS, the rest of the files are all the same. And even DU0:RT11XM.SYS uses DU0:DLX.SYS to read and write files on the DL0: device. If all of the files are identical, then I find it VERY difficult to determine why DU0:DLX.SYS works when used from the DU0: device and does not work as DL0:DLX.SYS from the DL0: device. After all, it is the same software and hardware being used EXCEPT that the boot block from the file DL0:DLX.SYS is used only when you attempt to boot DL0:RT11XM.SYS on the DL0: device. If the boot block in the file DLX.SYS is corrupted, then that would prevent you from booting DL0:RT11XM.SYS on the DL0: device, but you would still be able to use DL0: as a data device from DU0: when you are running the DU0:RT11XM.SYS monitor. Please ask additional questions if I have not explained everything in a manner that you understand. Since you are able to boot RT11XM from DU0:, the MMU hardware seems OK. Jerome Fine From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 9 20:09:55 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 18:09:55 -0700 Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? In-Reply-To: <4FAA952D.30159.177859B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201205092217.q49MH58T003526@billy.ezwind.net> <4FAA952D.30159.177859B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FAB1563.6070502@jwsss.com> On 5/9/2012 4:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Nope, they're IBM 64KB memory modules. Google on '6119927 IBM" for > more clues. I think it's in my O&A. I can check if you'd like. --Chuck Also, those square packages, and the circuit boards with all the dot patterns on the same centers as these packages come out of an IBM cad system, which pretty much is used on everything. They can put them in industry standard packages. However if they had a project where these chips were packaged in sufficient quantities for say an RT or other mini system, it would not be surprising to see these sorts of packages. Also if you had any of the full length 3270 cards for the ISA bus, they had some logic in the same packaging, so were probably in there for the same reason. I know that the air cooled mainframes I had had most of their logic implemented with the IC's in these metal type packages. The bubble memory I have most resembles some sort of an odd transformer on the card, rather than metal packages such as these. I think mine are from both TI and Intel, but I'd have to find them to check (bubble memories). Jim From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 9 21:40:35 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 19:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FFS: HP2932a dot matrix printheads Message-ID: I have three printheads for the HP 2932a dot matrix printer. They're free for shipping. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed May 9 22:28:17 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 00:28:17 -0300 Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? References: <201205092217.q49MH58T003526@billy.ezwind.net> <4FAA952D.30159.177859B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <03fd01cd2e5d$1009db10$6500a8c0@tababook> Easy to spot bubble memory modules: They get HOT :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 8:02 PM Subject: Re: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? > On 9 May 2012 at 18:16, B Degnan wrote: > >> There was some debate at VCF East whether this "IBM 256KB Memory >> Card" P/N 6407740 is a bubble memory card (pic below). The card was >> on display with my IBM PC 5150 exhibit. I originally pulled it from >> an IBM 5155 portable. >> >> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ibm/5155/ibm_256KB_memory_card_6407740. >> jpg >> >> Typically you don't see 32-pin 64K RAM chips on a ISA card. That does >> not make it bubble memory though, so I put this out to the esteemed >> CCTECH community for answers/ideas. > > Nope, they're IBM 64KB memory modules. Google on '6119927 IBM" for > more clues. > > I think it's in my O&A. I can check if you'd like. > > --Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 9 22:51:54 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 20:51:54 -0700 Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? In-Reply-To: <4FAB1563.6070502@jwsss.com> References: <201205092217.q49MH58T003526@billy.ezwind.net>, <4FAA952D.30159.177859B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FAB1563.6070502@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4FAAD8EA.17046.2802050@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2012 at 18:09, Jim Stephens wrote: > Also, those square packages, and the circuit boards with all the dot > patterns on the same centers as these packages come out of an IBM cad > system, which pretty much is used on everything. They can put them in > industry standard packages. However if they had a project where these > chips were packaged in sufficient quantities for say an RT or other > mini system, it would not be surprising to see these sorts of > packages. You could also find a couple on the first 5150 floppy controller used for the data separator. One big, one small, if memory serves. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed May 9 23:39:34 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 00:39:34 -0400 Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? In-Reply-To: <4FAA952D.30159.177859B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201205092217.q49MH58T003526@billy.ezwind.net> <4FAA952D.30159.177859B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Nope, they're IBM 64KB memory modules. Google on '6119927 IBM" for > more clues. I have one of these cards, given to me by an IBMer that had a hand in its design. Yes, the memory modules are just as you say. I think they contain two individual chip dies. The card was made for use with the 5155 portable. -- Will From lists at loomcom.com Wed May 9 23:44:58 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 21:44:58 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <1563E76E-BA74-46CE-9058-1C61A70DA85A@loomcom.com> Tonight, I de-racked the Diablo 30 and cleaned it off the best I could. I couldn't even see inside before, but it cleaned up pretty well. There's still a pack inside. The heads are locked (I think they auto-lock on power off) so I hope they're OK. Inside things look good except for a few spots of rust here and there. The heads look like they're in good shape. I can't unload the pack (or, I don't know how) without power, so I'll just leave everything as-is for now, until I come back around to restoring the Diablo 30. -Seth From jonas at otter.se Wed May 9 16:02:33 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 23:02:33 +0200 Subject: More photos from VCF East 8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FAADB69.7030105@otter.se> On Wed, 9 May 2012 09:04:07 -0700, "Michael Holley" wrote: > I was told the load from hard disk was page fault the swapped the desired > data back into memory. > > Michael Holley > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Tom Uban > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 5:33 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: More photos from VCF East 8 > > One note on the PDP-11/03 booting the VAX-11/780, the PDP-11/03 first loads > the microcode into the VAX-11/780, thereby defining the machine's higher > level of operating code, then a bootstrap to load from a particular hard > disk or tape is run. On most PDP-11s, the microcode is stored in ROMs or is > hard wired. > VMS always loads a program by page faulting it into memory. That mechanism would AFAIK not work for booting, because the whole paging software, disk drivers etc would have to be loaded and initialized first. I don't remember offhand what it says in the VMS internals book about booting, but I could look it up. /Jonas From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed May 9 16:11:22 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 14:11:22 -0700 Subject: Gear for sale - Goldendale Wa. Message-ID: <4FAADD7A.10303@gorge.net> Hi Guys, Here's a partial list of the stuff I'm looking to sell.. I don't have any prices yet, so make me an offer. I will ship the following: HP 32SII calculator HP 49G+ calculator Central point software Copy II PC deluxe board 4-6 tubes of 27C2048 16 bit wide EPROMS date code 97. Collection of 16032 / 32016 chipsets, Most are engineering samples Stuff you must pick up in Goldendale Wa, . 100 Mi east from Portland Or. in the Columbia gorge ( wild flowers are in bloom now ) Tektronix - Most stored in unheated shed, unknown condition, but not trashed 4025, 4027, 4023 color and mono terminals Tek 8002 Development system w/ calcomp floppy drives and 100-150 OS disks (floppies stored in controlled environment) Tek 6250 32016/32032 systems - Lots of parts, 2 chassis, 2 power supplies, 20-30 boards including frame buffer and graphics engine (gold scrap?) Tons of other stuff - Metheus Omega 400 graphics controller, analog devices process control computers, thermocouple stuff, old terminal boards ... Stored in controlled environment Tek 4052 with 4662 plotter and ( screen printer - stored in shed) HV supply dead, logic / CPU and LV supply was OK last I checked. A pile of Mac+, SE and road-apple macs, SCSI hard and CD drives ( low capacity ) Apple 2 GS woz with 2 drives, mem expansion, color monitor, joystick Computer Automation Naked mini chassis, front panel, power supply, CPU / 64 K words memory, TTY interface, extension card and semiconductor test system interface Email for details. I'll post some pics later ( dialup sucks ) If you come up, you will be taking something home, sale or not. Thanks, Jim Davis. From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed May 9 16:19:33 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 09 May 2012 14:19:33 -0700 Subject: More stuff - Goldendale Wa. Message-ID: <4FAADF65.5040201@gorge.net> I forgot to mention a Radio shack/ tandy model 4 and color 2, TI 99/4A in box, piles of old hard and floppy drives, motorola 68K multibus? 520/1040 3 atari ST parts machines... Thanks, Jim. From seth at loomcom.com Wed May 9 17:06:01 2012 From: seth at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 18:06:01 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: <4FAADFA9.7060603@bitsavers.org> References: <20120509194311.GA15200@mail.loomcom.com> <4FAADFA9.7060603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120509220601.GB7346@mail.loomcom.com> * On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 02:20:41PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > On 5/9/12 12:43 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > > http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/index.html > > > > The disk controller is an Advanced Electronics Design 2200, which has a nice set > of blinkinlights on the front. Where is the 10mb disk drive mounted? I wasn't aware that > the 2200 could run anything other than diablo-interface drives. Aha! Thanks, Al, this clears up a real mystery. I was going purely on what my friend told me. He thought the AED 2200 was a 10MB winchester, and I haven't dug into it any further (haven't de-racked it or even researched it yet), so I just went with his assumption. Further, I was unhappy to find that the Diablo Series 30 did not have an RK11-D controller. I assumed it had gotten scrapped and that the Diablo 30 would be useless. Now it comes together - the AED2200 _is_ the controller for the Diablo, and there is _no_ 10MB winchester. Thanks for that. I'll update the page now that it all makes sense. -Seth From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Thu May 10 02:32:24 2012 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 09:32:24 +0200 Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > ...so, whadda we gots ? > Most bubble memory modules need a lot more special chips to operate. Intel (72?? chips) and others made them. If the 256 kByte appears as normal memory in the PC, it can't be real bubbles. Bubble memory is not real random access per byte, it reads and writes 'pages' of 128 bytes. For more info see: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/fjkraan/comp/pc5000/bubble.html Fred Jan From snowen at gmail.com Thu May 10 09:26:52 2012 From: snowen at gmail.com (Simon Owen) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 15:26:52 +0100 Subject: FW: OLD-COMPUTERS.COM // donation mailing for the UK collectors In-Reply-To: References: <4FA9C80D.1090600@gmail.com> Message-ID: Newcastle upon Tyne University had R260-badged machines booting some flavour of Unix in the early 1990s. I don't remember any A680s though. On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Was it? What about the A680? (No, I don't have one. I have narrowly > > > missed getting one twice :-() > > > > Like the M4, I don't think the A680 was ever commercially released; it > was > > just an in-house dev platform for RISCiX. > > > > There was the R260 which made it out into the wild though, and which ran > > I thought the R260 was an A540 with RSICix installed, the hardware was > the same. Whereas the A680 is tolly differnt from any other Acorn ARM > machine. > > I am pretty sure some A680s got out to universities (and I don't just > mean Cambridge). > > -tony > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 10 09:40:08 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 10:40:08 -0400 Subject: More photos from VCF East 8 In-Reply-To: <4FAADB69.7030105@otter.se> References: <4FAADB69.7030105@otter.se> Message-ID: On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Jonas Otter wrote: > On ?Wed, 9 May 2012 09:04:07 -0700, "Michael Holley" > wrote: >> >> I was told the load from hard disk was page fault the swapped the desired >> data back into memory. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Tom Uban >> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 5:33 AM >> >> One note on the PDP-11/03 booting the VAX-11/780, the PDP-11/03 first >> loads the microcode into the VAX-11/780, thereby defining the machine's >> higher level of operating code, then a bootstrap to load from a particular >> hard disk or tape is run. On most PDP-11s, the microcode is stored in >> ROMs or is hard wired. >> > VMS always loads a program by page faulting it into memory. That mechanism > would AFAIK not work for booting, because the whole paging software, disk > drivers etc would have to be loaded and initialized first. I don't remember > offhand what it says in the VMS internals book about booting, but I could > look it up. I, too, would have to look up details, but from what I remember about the 11/730 (which has an 8085 as a front-end processor, not a PDP-11, but AFAIK, the general principles still apply), the FEP loads VMB.EXE from the console medium (RX01 for the 11/780, TU58 for the 11/730) into VAX main memory then kicks the processor into run mode. The 11/750 is a different beast - it has native boot ROMs and no FEP (there's an A-D selector switch, and there are several common arrangements of boot ROMs, including for third-party disk controllers) -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 10 09:47:40 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 07:47:40 -0700 Subject: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FABD50C.6070409@brouhaha.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > I'd like to think this is a joke, but I suppose I'd be wrong: > > http://www.essentialsound.com/essence-power-cord/index.htm Now you can even get "cryogenically treated" USB cables: http://www.oregondv.com/VooDoo_Magic_Bus_USB.htm They brag about the silver positive conductor, but to get any real benefit from it, doesn't it also need the negative conductor to be made from solid (not stranded) hadron-free unobtanium? I think I chose the wrong career. From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 10 09:59:27 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 15:59:27 +0100 Subject: Computing fossils: Old tech holding on for dear life Message-ID: Article from ITWorld: Computing fossils: Old tech holding on for dear life Some ancient technology is still useful -- and some just won't die http://www.itworld.com/hardware/270936/living-computing-fossils-old-tech-holding-dear-life May 08, 2012, 7:27 AM By Josh Fruhlinger, ITworld Consider the abacus. Developed perhaps as long as 4,500 years ago, this handy gadget served the mathematical needs of merchants and accountants until the development of mechanical calculating machines in the 19th century. But the abacus hasn't been forgotten. Instead it still lives on in niches -- for instance teaching preschoolers the basics of counting. There are a number of obsolete technologies and gadgets that have persisted from slightly less ancient times right down to the current day, though again in greatly diminished numbers and scope. A brief tour through these technological fossils serves as a lesson on the durability of items we sometimes think of as ephemeral. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu May 10 10:04:03 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 12:04:03 -0300 Subject: USB cables for audophools References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> <4FABD50C.6070409@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <08ae01cd2ebe$55312340$6500a8c0@tababook> > Now you can even get "cryogenically treated" USB cables: > http://www.oregondv.com/VooDoo_Magic_Bus_USB.htm A hundred and fifty bucks for an USB cable? Oh, my... From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 10 10:25:09 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 08:25:09 -0700 Subject: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <4FABD50C.6070409@brouhaha.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> <4FABD50C.6070409@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 7:47 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Now you can even get "cryogenically treated" USB cables: > ? ?http://www.oregondv.com/VooDoo_Magic_Bus_USB.htm > > They brag about the silver positive conductor, but to get any real benefit > from it, doesn't it also need the negative conductor to be made from solid > (not stranded) hadron-free unobtanium? > > I think I chose the wrong career. > If those are the best USB cables you can afford you might as well not bother listening to audio through USB. You really need to step up to these cables to fully enjoy your USB audio experience: http://locus-design.com/index.php/cynosure-usb-cable Starting at $3549 for 3FT. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 10 10:39:43 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 11:39:43 -0400 Subject: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <08ae01cd2ebe$55312340$6500a8c0@tababook> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> <4FABD50C.6070409@brouhaha.com> <08ae01cd2ebe$55312340$6500a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FABE13F.9040700@atarimuseum.com> Its like the BS with the HDMI cables when they came out 5-6 years back, Monster was getting $129.99 for a 6' HDMI cable when they were first released. All this talk about transmission grade quality, the ability to support true 1080p and blah blah blah... now you can buy them for $9.99 for a 12' cable.... funny how all of the important transmission grade quality debates went right out the window, along with the 1000x mark up. Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Now you can even get "cryogenically treated" USB cables: >> http://www.oregondv.com/VooDoo_Magic_Bus_USB.htm > > A hundred and fifty bucks for an USB cable? > > Oh, my... > From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu May 10 10:53:56 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 17:53:56 +0200 Subject: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> <4FABD50C.6070409@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > If those are the best USB cables you can afford you might as well not > bother listening to audio through USB. ?You really need to step up to > these cables to fully enjoy your USB audio experience: > > http://locus-design.com/index.php/cynosure-usb-cable > > Starting at $3549 for 3FT. I like the fact that you can return the cable within 30 days if it doesn't perform to your expectations - for a 20% restocking fee. Maybe they only have a handful of these cables made, every time one gets returned they get $700 and they can send that cable out to the next sucker^H^H^H^H^H customer. I wish I had the chutzpah to run that kind of business. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu May 10 11:10:56 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 12:10:56 -0400 Subject: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <4FABE13F.9040700@atarimuseum.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> <4FABD50C.6070409@brouhaha.com> <08ae01cd2ebe$55312340$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FABE13F.9040700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <6C2ED044-E97E-4813-8419-C3D46F32954A@gmail.com> On May 10, 2012, at 11:39 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Its like the BS with the HDMI cables when they came out 5-6 years back, Monster was getting $129.99 for a 6' HDMI cable when they were first released. All this talk about transmission grade quality, the ability to support true 1080p and blah blah blah... now you can buy them for $9.99 for a 12' cable.... funny how all of the important transmission grade quality debates went right out the window, along with the 1000x mark up. Well. Monster still sells them for a pretty price: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Monster+-+M+Series+4'+HDMI+A/V+Cable/7857599.p?id=1158317793970 Monster has long made a living off the fact that the number of suckers in the world increases monotonically. HDMI has been a great boon for them, actually, because now that HD is an "in" thing, more of the clue-deprived have become obsessed with "maximizing performance" of their all-digital signal chain. It just doesn't make sense to a great number of people that a more expensive cable won't be somehow better. A lot of companies will try to throw the semi-clueful off with talk about jitter, which would be important if you were feeding it directly into a DAC, but of course any realistic system is going to buffering and retiming its data anyway, so the jitter on the line just doesn't matter. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 11:47:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 09:47:37 -0700 Subject: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <6C2ED044-E97E-4813-8419-C3D46F32954A@gmail.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4FABE13F.9040700@atarimuseum.com>, <6C2ED044-E97E-4813-8419-C3D46F32954A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FAB8EB9.16057.573FE0@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2012 at 12:10, David Riley wrote: > Monster has long made a living off the fact that the number of suckers > in the world increases monotonically. HDMI has been a great boon for > them, actually, because now that HD is an "in" thing, more of the > clue-deprived have become obsessed with "maximizing performance" of > their all-digital signal chain. It just doesn't make sense to a great > number of people that a more expensive cable won't be somehow better. That builds to a point where people simply go out an buy Monster without evaluating it. I can't even begin to count the number of times I've heard someone say that they use Monster speaker cables. When I ask them if they'd considered 16 AWG zip cord instead, they think I'm kidding. The last time I ran into solid-silver wire being used on something was, oddly enough, the connection between a reset switch and a motherboard. I figure that someone just grabbed whatever they had on hand. Maybe I'm missing out on an important marketing opportunity... --Chuck From halarewich at gmail.com Thu May 10 12:10:00 2012 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 10:10:00 -0700 Subject: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <4FAB8EB9.16057.573FE0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4FABE13F.9040700@atarimuseum.com> <6C2ED044-E97E-4813-8419-C3D46F32954A@gmail.com> <4FAB8EB9.16057.573FE0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 9:47 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 May 2012 at 12:10, David Riley wrote: > > > Monster has long made a living off the fact that the number of suckers > > in the world increases monotonically. HDMI has been a great boon for > > them, actually, because now that HD is an "in" thing, more of the > > clue-deprived have become obsessed with "maximizing performance" of > > their all-digital signal chain. It just doesn't make sense to a great > > number of people that a more expensive cable won't be somehow better. > > That builds to a point where people simply go out an buy Monster > without evaluating it. I can't even begin to count the number of > times I've heard someone say that they use Monster speaker cables. > When I ask them if they'd considered 16 AWG zip cord instead, they > think I'm kidding. > > The last time I ran into solid-silver wire being used on something > was, oddly enough, the connection between a reset switch and a > motherboard. I figure that someone just grabbed whatever they had on > hand. > > Maybe I'm missing out on an important marketing opportunity... > > --Chuck > > http://www.monoprice.com 'Nuff said great prices From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 10 12:10:42 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 12:10:42 -0500 Subject: Computing fossils: Old tech holding on for dear life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FABF692.9050907@gmail.com> On 05/10/2012 09:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > There are a number of obsolete technologies Is it obsolete if it's still in use? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu May 10 12:27:25 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 12:27:25 -0500 Subject: FW: OLD-COMPUTERS.COM // donation mailing for the UK collectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FABFA7D.7030208@gmail.com> On 05/09/2012 01:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Was it? What about the A680? (No, I don't have one. I have narrowly >>> missed getting one twice :-() >> >> Like the M4, I don't think the A680 was ever commercially released; it was >> just an in-house dev platform for RISCiX. >> >> There was the R260 which made it out into the wild though, and which ran > > I thought the R260 was an A540 with RSICix installed, the hardware was > the same. Whereas the A680 is tolly differnt from any other Acorn ARM > machine. Correct, although genuine R260 machines were branded as such. The R260 was an 8MB machine, too, whereas by default the A540 was only 4MB - based on experiences of trying to get 8MB A540s up and running for RISCiX, the hardware is *very* picky about which memory it will work with (I suspect some timing somewhere is rather marginal), so I assume that Acorn had some fun and games mixing and matching memory for any released R260's. > I am pretty sure some A680s got out to universities (and I don't just > mean Cambridge). Like most Acorn 'alpha' stuff, I expect a few (I'd estimate there are perhaps 20 or so still in existence) leaked out into the wild, although as far as I know, they weren't ever actually sold. Like you, I've had a couple of "near misses" when it came to acquiring one! cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 10 12:49:11 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 13:49:11 -0400 Subject: Computing fossils: Old tech holding on for dear life In-Reply-To: <4FABF692.9050907@gmail.com> References: <4FABF692.9050907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FABFF97.6020804@neurotica.com> On 05/10/2012 01:10 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> There are a number of obsolete technologies > > Is it obsolete if it's still in use? Of course not. But that term has been usurped by suits to mean "we'd rather sell you something new, than have you use what you have". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 10 13:14:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 14:14:10 -0400 Subject: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> <4FABD50C.6070409@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FAC0572.3040904@neurotica.com> On 05/10/2012 11:25 AM, Glen Slick wrote: >> Now you can even get "cryogenically treated" USB cables: >> http://www.oregondv.com/VooDoo_Magic_Bus_USB.htm >> >> They brag about the silver positive conductor, but to get any real benefit >> from it, doesn't it also need the negative conductor to be made from solid >> (not stranded) hadron-free unobtanium? >> >> I think I chose the wrong career. >> > > If those are the best USB cables you can afford you might as well not > bother listening to audio through USB. You really need to step up to > these cables to fully enjoy your USB audio experience: > > http://locus-design.com/index.php/cynosure-usb-cable > > Starting at $3549 for 3FT. It seems this particular fools are very easily parted from their money. I really need to get in on this. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 10 13:52:01 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 19:52:01 +0100 Subject: Computing fossils: Old tech holding on for dear life In-Reply-To: <4FABF692.9050907@gmail.com> References: <4FABF692.9050907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10 May 2012 18:10, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 05/10/2012 09:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> There are a number of obsolete technologies > > Is it obsolete if it's still in use? According to the strict dictionary definition, no, but then, some people still knap & make flint knives and axes, but I'd be happy to call that technology obsolete too. Anyway, I didn't write it! I *did* write this, if anyone's curious: http://www.reghardware.com/2012/05/10/product_round_up_arm_mini_computers_the_best_and_the_rest/ Review of the latest native RISC OS box, so technically it has a strong classic-computing connection... :?D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu May 10 14:45:09 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 15:45:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> <4FABD50C.6070409@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 May 2012, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> If those are the best USB cables you can afford you might as well not >> bother listening to audio through USB. ?You really need to step up to >> these cables to fully enjoy your USB audio experience: >> >> http://locus-design.com/index.php/cynosure-usb-cable >> >> Starting at $3549 for 3FT. > > I like the fact that you can return the cable within 30 days if it > doesn't perform to your expectations - for a 20% restocking fee. > Maybe they only have a handful of these cables made, every time one > gets returned they get $700 and they can send that cable out to the > next sucker^H^H^H^H^H customer. > > I wish I had the chutzpah to run that kind of business. You mean that wasn't a joke? Holy Sh*t. I would ask the rhetorical question as to whether there are really folks stupid enough to buy $3k USB cables. But, after being on this earth for 60 years I think I already know the answer. Steve -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 10 14:45:24 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 20:45:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: from "Paul Anderson" at May 9, 12 04:20:03 pm Message-ID: > > I just looked at the pics and comfiguration. Do you have the RK11-C to > control the Diablo 30? I have a drive here but not sure about the > controller. I don't thinh the RK11-d will work on that drive, and I > didn't see eother in the pic. There are 2 main differncees between the RK11-C and RK11-D. The first is that the -C can also handle low-density drives like the RK02. I don't think this applies here The second is the drive select lines. The RK11-C has 4 lines per drive cabvle connector, 1-of-n encoded (oee signals is asserted at a time to select oen drive). Thus each cable can have 4 drives conencted to it, there are 2 cable conenctros for a total of 8 drives The RK11-D uses binary encoding on 3 lines (so 8 drives on one cable). The RK05 drive cna handle either, there's singal on the itnerface conencotr which is groudned by an RK11-D to eneable a decoder in the drive. Mny other drives, like the Diablo 30, could only handle 1-of-n select lines. Over here,. Plessey sold an (exact?) clone of the RK11-D which was sued with Diablo and similar dreives. The trick was that the drive cable had a decoder IC on the PCB at the controller end. I don't think I have any more infroamtion on that, alas. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 10 15:14:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 21:14:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <4FABD50C.6070409@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 10, 12 07:47:40 am Message-ID: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I'd like to think this is a joke, but I suppose I'd be wrong: > > > > http://www.essentialsound.com/essence-power-cord/index.htm > > Now you can even get "cryogenically treated" USB cables: > http://www.oregondv.com/VooDoo_Magic_Bus_USB.htm You're over a month late for April Fool's Day :-) > > They brag about the silver positive conductor, but to get any real > benefit from it, doesn't it also need the negative conductor to be made > from solid (not stranded) hadron-free unobtanium? I guess so. As I understand it, a USB calbe consists of a balanced (differntial) data pair and a balanced power pair. Messing about with one wire of a pair nad not the other could make matters worse... However, I would think that anything that's hadron-frer is unlikeyl to be solid ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 10 14:53:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 20:53:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? In-Reply-To: <201205092217.q49MH58T003526@billy.ezwind.net> from "B Degnan" at May 9, 12 06:16:48 pm Message-ID: > > There was some debate at VCF East whether this "IBM 256KB Memory > Card" P/N 6407740 is a bubble memory card (pic below). The card was > on display with my IBM PC 5150 exhibit. I originally pulled it from > an IBM 5155 portable. > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ibm/5155/ibm_256KB_memory_card_6407740.jpg > > Typically you don't see 32-pin 64K RAM chips on a ISA card. That > does not make it bubble memory though, so I put this out to the > esteemed CCTECH community for answers/ideas. I doubt very much if it's bubble memory, for sevrral reasons. 1) What would eb the point of having part of the sytem RAM non-volatile? 2) Buble memory is slow, and sequential access at the device level. It is not really suitable for use as main memoty. My experience of it is limited to the HP bubble memroy card used in HP9000/200 machines where it's addressed in the I/O space and is used by the system as a fast 'disk drive' . 3) Unless those metal cans are bubble memory devices with built-in cotnroller circuitry, thwre is nothing apporximatign to a buble memeory controlelr on that board. You can't do it with a handful of TTL parts. A 'bare' bubble memroy device has not that many conenctions either. I am pretty sure there's a photo and schematic for the HP bubble memory board I mentioned over on http://www.hpmuesum.net/ > > I do not have a technical reference manual, but I do have the IBM > 64/256KB Memory Expansion Option manual. That ain't it. That board is not min my Techref either. But I think it's just plain DRAM. I do wonder why it existed. It is trivial to put 640K on the motherboard of a 5155, jsut as in a 5160 (XT). It's a matter of putting the right TAMs in (41256s in banks 0 and 1, 4164s in banks 2 and 3), adding a 74S158 (or 74F158) in the enpty socket towards the front and jumpering E1 to E2. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 10 14:56:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 20:56:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? In-Reply-To: <03fd01cd2e5d$1009db10$6500a8c0@tababook> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at May 10, 12 00:28:17 am Message-ID: > Easy to spot bubble memory modules: They get HOT :o) So do beam tetrodes -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 15:38:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 13:38:19 -0700 Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, , Message-ID: <4FABC4CB.13110.12A770B@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2012 at 15:45, Steven Hirsch wrote: > You mean that wasn't a joke? Holy Sh*t. > > I would ask the rhetorical question as to whether there are really > folks stupid enough to buy $3k USB cables. But, after being on this > earth for 60 years I think I already know the answer. Heck yeah! At least for $3.6Kbucks you get a hunk of wire that may actually do something. I take a perverse delight in seeing how some can capitalize on some fast talking or another's lack of the ability to think clearly. Right now, one of the "hot" areas is cold fusion-ish projects: One is right in Fred's back yard: http://www.brillouinenergy.com/ The Europeans are at it too: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/ http://andrearossiecat.com/ The first in Greece, the second in Italy. So, if you're curious, just crank up the Steorn Orbo and motor on over for a visit... --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu May 10 16:08:21 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 17:08:21 -0400 Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FAC2E45.2030002@verizon.net> On 05/10/2012 03:32 AM, Fred Jan Kraan wrote: >> ...so, whadda we gots ? >> > Most bubble memory modules need a lot more special chips to operate. Intel > (72?? chips) and others made them. > If the 256 kByte appears as normal memory in the PC, it can't be real > bubbles. Bubble memory is not real random access per byte, it reads and > writes 'pages' of 128 bytes. For more info see: > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/fjkraan/comp/pc5000/bubble.html > > Fred Jan > > I have several of the Intel standalone BPK7220 Bubble memory boards. They are essentially disks, in that they are fixed sector size block randomly addressable devices. They never lived up to the speed and density of hard disks and they were not power competitive with most floppies of the same size. Allison From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu May 10 16:19:55 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 23:19:55 +0200 Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? In-Reply-To: References: <201205092217.q49MH58T003526@billy.ezwind.net> from "B Degnan" at May 9, 12 06:16:48 pm Message-ID: <00eb01cd2ef2$a6a44840$f3ecd8c0$@gmail.com> > There was some debate at VCF East whether this "IBM 256KB Memory > Card" P/N 6407740 is a bubble memory card (pic below). The card was > on display with my IBM PC 5150 exhibit. I originally pulled it from > an IBM 5155 portable. > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ibm/5155/ibm_256KB_memory_card_6407740. > jpg I am certain those are 64 KB CMOS DRAM chips, not bubble memory. I've seen them on 30-pin SIMMs too. Camiel. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 16:26:20 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 14:26:20 -0700 Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? In-Reply-To: References: <201205092217.q49MH58T003526@billy.ezwind.net> from "B Degnan" at May 9, 12 06:16:48 pm, Message-ID: <4FABD00C.8285.1566E5A@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2012 at 20:53, Tony Duell wrote: > That board is not min my Techref either. But I think it's just plain > DRAM. As I mentioned, it's in the O&A under "IBM 256KB Memory Expansion Option". To quote: "The IBM 256KB Memory Expansion Option has four pluggable sockets. Each socket will accept a 64KB Memory Module, consisting of one (64K by 9) 32-pin D RAM Module. The 256KB expansion option comes with all four modules installed providing 256KB of memory." For what it's worth, this is a three-supply card; +5, -5 and +12 VDC. The section includes a pinout of a 64KB module. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 10 16:48:36 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 22:48:36 +0100 Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <4FABC4CB.13110.12A770B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4FABC4CB.13110.12A770B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10 May 2012 21:38, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Heck yeah! ?At least for $3.6Kbucks you get a hunk of wire that may > actually do something. > > I take a perverse delight in seeing how some can capitalize on some > fast talking or another's lack of the ability to think clearly. > Right now, one of the "hot" areas is cold fusion-ish projects: > > One is right in Fred's back yard: > > http://www.brillouinenergy.com/ > > The Europeans are at it too: > > http://www.defkalion-energy.com/ > http://andrearossiecat.com/ > > The first in Greece, the second in Italy. ?So, if you're curious, > just crank up the Steorn Orbo and motor on over for a visit... I'd laugh if it wasn't so damned tragic. And /this/ is why the worlds needs sound science education in schools. (Yes, including evolution, before ChrisM sends me another email about how I need to be Saved by Jesus or whatever.) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu May 10 16:53:25 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 17:53:25 -0400 Subject: BASIC-PLUS 2 install on RSX-11M 4.6 Message-ID: <8C18586D-9655-46AF-BA9B-76887F2AAC99@gmail.com> Hey all, I'm trying to install BP2 on my SIMH system (need to fix my 9-track before it'll be worth trying on real iron). I'm having some trouble with the install, though. I'm using the 2.7 tape found on trailing-edge's rsxdists FTP area, and I can copy BP2RSX.CMD just fine. However, when I try to run it and install, one of two things happens, depending on my choices: - If I select the prebuilt distribution, there are a number of files missing, and it barfs after a number of errors. - If I select non-prebuilt, it crashes with a "Reserved inst execution" error; if I delete the .ENABLE QUIET at the start of the indirect file, I see that this happens when it tries to execute the DIALOG.TSK file it's just copied. I'm not in the mood to actually run this through a debugger, since I'm still somewhat unfamiliar with development on RSX. Does anyone know if this is maybe a known dodgy tape image? I can list the directories just fine with FLX, so I assume it's not totally boned, but this is puzzling me (partly because I'm a bit new to RSX and the like). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu May 10 16:58:07 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 17:58:07 -0400 Subject: BASIC-PLUS 2 install on RSX-11M 4.6 In-Reply-To: <8C18586D-9655-46AF-BA9B-76887F2AAC99@gmail.com> References: <8C18586D-9655-46AF-BA9B-76887F2AAC99@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, all, my very next search turned up a nearly identical post wherein Johnny Billquist notes that the 2.7 tape image is corrupted. My apologies for the noise. - Dave From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 10 16:58:18 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 17:58:18 -0400 Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? In-Reply-To: <00eb01cd2ef2$a6a44840$f3ecd8c0$@gmail.com> References: <201205092217.q49MH58T003526@billy.ezwind.net> <00eb01cd2ef2$a6a44840$f3ecd8c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > There was some debate at VCF East whether this "IBM 256KB Memory > > Card" P/N 6407740 is a bubble memory card (pic below). Apparently my original post was trashed, so: I have one of these cards, given to me by one of the IBM old timers I see from time to time. He is one of the original engineers for it. So, second hand from the horses mouth - no, not bubble memory. The card was designed specifically for use in the 5155, for some reason. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 10 17:04:16 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 18:04:16 -0400 Subject: Computing fossils: Old tech holding on for dear life In-Reply-To: <4FABF692.9050907@gmail.com> References: <4FABF692.9050907@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Is it obsolete if it's still in use? In this case, yes. The filter company is in a *very* fragile position. Both the 402 operator and the guy that services the machine are *very* fragile themselves. Not a good position for any business to be in. -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu May 10 17:10:01 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 18:10:01 -0400 Subject: USB cables for audophools References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4F96A88A.5008.13B0737@cclist.sydex.com> <3FD663B6-3E3F-498D-8355-16015E544892@gmail.com> <049301cd225e$ae5fda40$6600a8c0@tababook> <5DB81A7D-FFF9-4CD5-A534-199697013308@gmail.com> <4FABD50C.6070409@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5D93E9E9D8CD4752947A02C731CA1572@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 3:45 PM Subject: Re: USB cables for audophools > On Thu, 10 May 2012, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > > You mean that wasn't a joke? Holy Sh*t. > > I would ask the rhetorical question as to whether there are really folks > stupid enough to buy $3k USB cables. But, after being on this earth for > 60 years I think I already know the answer. > > Steve > > > Why not some people spend $5M+ on engagement rings. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 10 17:15:29 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 16:15:29 -0600 Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: References: <1189402180.1372613.1335290510419.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4FABC4CB.13110.12A770B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FAC3E01.3080800@jetnet.ab.ca> >Heck yeah! At least for $3.6Kbucks you get a hunk of wire that may >actually do something. Funny ... 70 years ago this is what you got for your money. I am guessing the same dollar amount. http://vinylsavor.blogspot.ca/ Ben. From lists at loomcom.com Thu May 10 19:24:52 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 20:24:52 -0400 Subject: DEC MS11-J (MOS memory) question Message-ID: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> Here's a puzzler. One of the two memory boards from my PDP-11/35 is short four ICs. See: http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/ms11_j.jpg It looks like it was an 8KW board that was user-expanded to 16KW, and if I'm reading the switches correctly it was configured for starting address 000000. (The other 16KW board I have is configured to start at address 100000) Those four missing ICs seem weird, though. The other board is is fully populated. Were they just pulled before the PDP was trashed? Or is that a valid configuration? -Seth From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu May 10 19:38:13 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 20:38:13 -0400 Subject: DEC MS11-J (MOS memory) question In-Reply-To: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: On May 10, 2012, at 8:24 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Here's a puzzler. > > One of the two memory boards from my PDP-11/35 is short four ICs. See: > http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/ms11_j.jpg > > It looks like it was an 8KW board that was user-expanded to 16KW, and if > I'm reading the switches correctly it was configured for starting > address 000000. (The other 16KW board I have is configured to start at > address 100000) > > Those four missing ICs seem weird, though. The other board is is fully > populated. Were they just pulled before the PDP was trashed? Or is that > a valid configuration? Looks like they didn't populate the ninth chips (used for parity). Someone more knowledgeable about Unibus than I would have to guess what difference that might make. - Dave From lists at loomcom.com Thu May 10 19:48:03 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 20:48:03 -0400 Subject: DEC MS11-J (MOS memory) question In-Reply-To: References: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20120511004803.GA19786@mail.loomcom.com> * On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 08:38:13PM -0400, David Riley wrote: > > Looks like they didn't populate the ninth chips (used for parity). > Someone more knowledgeable about Unibus than I would have to guess what > difference that might make. Aha! OK, that would make sense, since this system does not have an M7850 Parity Control module, and therefore cannot use the parity bits. -Seth From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 20:05:50 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 18:05:50 -0700 Subject: DEC MS11-J (MOS memory) question In-Reply-To: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <4FAC65EE.3050007@bitsavers.org> On 5/10/12 5:24 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Those four missing ICs seem weird, though. I bet parity is turned off.. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu May 10 21:05:53 2012 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 19:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Heathkit Educational Systems Closes Up Shop In-Reply-To: References: <4FA9C80D.1090600@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at May 8, 12 08:27:41 pm Message-ID: <1336701953.72894.YahooMailNeo@web113516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> This is from the ARRL but I figured some people would like this here http://www.arrl.org/news/heathkit-educational-systems-closes-up-shop From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 23:31:26 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 21:31:26 -0700 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images Message-ID: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> The machines arrived from San Diego this week, and the disks were readable. http://bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/856x From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 10 23:46:59 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 00:46:59 -0400 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FAC99C3.2000904@neurotica.com> On 05/11/2012 12:31 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > The machines arrived from San Diego this week, and the disks were readable. > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/856x Excellent! Congrats! Let me know what your plans are for the hardware. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 11 00:02:58 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 22:02:58 -0700 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <4FAC99C3.2000904@neurotica.com> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <4FAC99C3.2000904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FAC9D82.4080306@bitsavers.org> On 5/10/12 9:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 05/11/2012 12:31 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> The machines arrived from San Diego this week, and the disks were readable. >> >> http://bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/856x > > Excellent! Congrats! Let me know what your plans are for the hardware. > > -Dave > I have to get one 8560 working to recover some data from an 8550, after that it all can go. I have a couple more 8560's as well. There is only one complete 8540 and a bunch of parts. Unfortunately, Will was going to Black Hole on the way back, so there was no space in the van for anything going east. There was an 8560 service manual in the pile, so that will get scanned tomorrow. It looks like the floppies are V7 file systems. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 11 01:15:26 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 02:15:26 -0400 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <4FAC9D82.4080306@bitsavers.org> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <4FAC99C3.2000904@neurotica.com> <4FAC9D82.4080306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Unfortunately, Will was going to Black Hole on the > way back, so there was no space in the van for anything going east. And the Hole was good to us again. I scored a first generation 3270 controller, a 3C card reader, another DEC disk pack cleaner, and now have more fanfold paper tape than the Pope. Of interest to you are some paper tapes and weird cartridges of SDS origin (maybe a 910 simulator). I also found the printer for the IBM S/6, but it was way to heavy the grab. I know CHM does not take much in the way of big stuff anymore, but that printer is a real gem. -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri May 11 01:44:35 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 03:44:35 -0300 Subject: Heathkit Educational Systems Closes Up Shop References: <4FA9C80D.1090600@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at May 8, 12 08:27:41 pm <1336701953.72894.YahooMailNeo@web113516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0d1501cd2f41$acdc7080$6500a8c0@tababook> A sad day for humanity :( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Liendo" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:05 PM Subject: Heathkit Educational Systems Closes Up Shop > This is from the ARRL but I figured some people would like this here > > http://www.arrl.org/news/heathkit-educational-systems-closes-up-shop > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 11 02:41:50 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 09:41:50 +0200 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120511094150.87c6c0b5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 10 May 2012 21:31:26 -0700 Al Kossow wrote: > The machines arrived from San Diego this week, and the disks were readable. > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/856x Great! Many thanks! :-))) But, sorry for the stupid question, what file format is "IMD"? ImageDisk? http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm Is there an easy way to extract the "pure" disk image out of an IMD? I.e. a disk image as it would have been made with dd(1). Thats because NetBSD can mount Unix V7 file system images made with dd(1). BTW: I have a cardboard box with documentation for my 8560. I'll dig it out and run it through the ScanJet... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jws at jwsss.com Fri May 11 03:01:55 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 01:01:55 -0700 Subject: Heathkit Educational Systems Closes Up Shop In-Reply-To: <0d1501cd2f41$acdc7080$6500a8c0@tababook> References: <4FA9C80D.1090600@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at May 8, 12 08:27:41 pm <1336701953.72894.YahooMailNeo@web113516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <0d1501cd2f41$acdc7080$6500a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FACC773.703@jwsss.com> I had seen that they were doing copyright trolling with some sites, which didn't bode well for building goodwill to restart sales. Anyone have any ideas what their business model was? if they had folks with linkedin pages, it sounds like they had someone put in a wad of money to hire them and expected something in return. I recall a class in circuit design for which the professor took apart an audio amp design which was solid state as an example of how not do do solid state. This was in 72 or so when the design engineers were still learning to do such types of electronics in a different style than they had with tubes. The Heathkit design was critiqued as being a "tube" design with transistors. Jim On 5/10/2012 11:44 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > A sad day for humanity :( > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Liendo" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:05 PM > Subject: Heathkit Educational Systems Closes Up Shop > > >> This is from the ARRL but I figured some people would like this here >> >> http://www.arrl.org/news/heathkit-educational-systems-closes-up-shop >> > > From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri May 11 03:05:45 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 01:05:45 -0700 Subject: Heathkit Educational Systems Closes Up Shop In-Reply-To: <0d1501cd2f41$acdc7080$6500a8c0@tababook> References: <4FA9C80D.1090600@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at May 8, 12 08:27:41 pm <1336701953.72894.YahooMailNeo@web113516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <0d1501cd2f41$acdc7080$6500a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FACC859.1080400@gmail.com> Isn't this just like the 3rd or 4th bunch of people that bought the IP going under? Last I heard these guys were busy suing people that posted anything Heathkit online. If so I can't get all that upset over this. On 5/10/2012 11:44 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > A sad day for humanity :( > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Liendo" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:05 PM > Subject: Heathkit Educational Systems Closes Up Shop > > >> This is from the ARRL but I figured some people would like this here >> >> http://www.arrl.org/news/heathkit-educational-systems-closes-up-shop >> > From snowen at gmail.com Fri May 11 03:30:18 2012 From: snowen at gmail.com (Simon Owen) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 09:30:18 +0100 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <20120511094150.87c6c0b5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <20120511094150.87c6c0b5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: SAMdisk yourdisk.imd yourdisk.raw should give the dd-style image, though check the reported disk geometry is correct after extraction. You can force the cyl and head count with -c and -h if the required range differs from the source image. (SAMdisk.exe from http://simonowen.com/samdisk) On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 8:41 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 10 May 2012 21:31:26 -0700 > Al Kossow wrote: > > > The machines arrived from San Diego this week, and the disks were > readable. > > > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/856x > Great! Many thanks! :-))) > > But, sorry for the stupid question, what file format is "IMD"? > ImageDisk? http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm > > Is there an easy way to extract the "pure" disk image out of an IMD? > I.e. a disk image as it would have been made with dd(1). Thats because > NetBSD can mount Unix V7 file system images made with dd(1). > > BTW: I have a cardboard box with documentation for my 8560. > I'll dig it out and run it through the ScanJet... > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} > > From shumaker at att.net Fri May 11 06:59:50 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 07:59:50 -0400 Subject: Heathkit Educational Systems Closes Up Shop In-Reply-To: <4FACC859.1080400@gmail.com> References: <4FA9C80D.1090600@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at May 8, 12 08:27:41 pm <1336701953.72894.YahooMailNeo@web113516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <0d1501cd2f41$acdc7080$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FACC859.1080400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FACFF36.3060201@att.net> Different individual. His IP seems to include JUST the manuals. http://www.d8apro.com/heath1.htm Steve On 5/11/2012 4:05 AM, mc68010 wrote: > Isn't this just like the 3rd or 4th bunch of people that bought the IP > going under? Last I heard these guys were busy suing people that > posted anything Heathkit online. If so I can't get all that upset over > this. > > On 5/10/2012 11:44 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >> A sad day for humanity :( >> >> --- >> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 >> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Liendo" >> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:05 PM >> Subject: Heathkit Educational Systems Closes Up Shop >> >> >>> This is from the ARRL but I figured some people would like this here >>> >>> http://www.arrl.org/news/heathkit-educational-systems-closes-up-shop >>> >> > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 11 08:55:19 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 06:55:19 -0700 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <4FAC99C3.2000904@neurotica.com> <4FAC9D82.4080306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FAD1A47.4090007@bitsavers.org> On 5/10/12 11:15 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > now have > more fanfold paper tape than the Pope. that was a good find. stuff ain't made no more > Of interest to you are some paper > tapes and weird cartridges of SDS origin (maybe a 910 simulator). SDS made a tape cartridge system. CHM has one in the SDS 930 from NOAA. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 11 09:02:55 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 07:02:55 -0700 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <20120511094150.87c6c0b5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4FAD1C0F.8080600@bitsavers.org> On 5/11/12 1:30 AM, Simon Owen wrote: > SAMdisk yourdisk.imd yourdisk.raw should give the dd-style image, though > check the reported disk geometry is correct after extraction. They are ds/dd 26 sector 256 bytes/sector non-interleaved, except for t0/side 0 which is sd 128. Does remind me, has anyone noticed that imagedisk incorrectly reports the track number when the first track differs from the rest? When it switches to double-density, it says it is at track 4/0. I was mistaken about them being V7. A few of them are, but most are in Tek 'fbr' format, which I don't know anything about. They appear to have tables of contents at the front, with full path names. The data appears to be contiguous, so it should be fairly easy to figure out the format. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 11 09:04:31 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 10:04:31 -0400 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <4FAD1A47.4090007@bitsavers.org> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <4FAC99C3.2000904@neurotica.com> <4FAC9D82.4080306@bitsavers.org> <4FAD1A47.4090007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > SDS made a tape cartridge system. CHM has one in the SDS 930 from NOAA. I suppose you should end up with them. They have SDS labels like "instrumentation" and such. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 11 09:25:23 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 07:25:23 -0700 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <20120511094150.87c6c0b5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <20120511094150.87c6c0b5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4FAD2153.70803@bitsavers.org> On 5/11/12 12:41 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > BTW: I have a cardboard box with documentation for my 8560. > I only have volume 1 of the user's manual. I'm guessing there must have been other volumes. I can see there is a man(5) page for fbr on the first disk of the system restore which describes the format. 8560 MUSDU System Reference Manual FBR(5) ___________________________________________________________________________ FBR(5) NAME fbr - file backup and restore format SYNTAX #include #include DESCRIPTION Fbr saves and restores directories and files on a floppy disk archive, preserving aliases (multiple links to the same file). The archive consists of: Boot block - Block zero is reserved for a copy of a stand-alone boot program. Directory area - This area contains directory information for all files and directories on the archive. The first entry in this area is dedicated to the archive label. Data area - The data of all files on the archive is stored here. The format of a directory entry (as given in the include file) fol- lows. To increase the portability of archives, this structure is read and written in PDP-11 format regardless of what machine fbr_is running on. #define PATHLEN 106 /* space for path */ struct fbrent { char fbr_path[PATHLEN]; /* pathname */ unsigned short fbr_mode; short fbr_uid; /* owner's userI^AD */ short fbr_gid; /* owner's groupID */ off_t fbr_size; /* size in bytes */ time_t fbr_acct; /* access date-time */ time_t fbr_modt; /* modify date-time */ unsigned fbr_fblk; /* firs^At data block */ char fbr_zero; /* unused */ char fbr_chks; /* checksum */ }; The path field is the pathname of the file when archived, less any redundant slashes or initial './'. It is null-terminated if less than PATHLEN bytes long. The mode, uid, gid, size, and access and modifi- cation date-times are in the same format as their corresponding i-node fields. As in the file system, an available entry has a mode of zero. The fblk field contains the block number of the first data block allo- cated to this file. The zero field is unused. The checksum field contains a number such that the sum of the first 127 bytes of the 1 FBR(5) 8560 MUSDU System Reference Manual ___________________________________________________________________________ directory entry and the complement of the checksum is zero. Each file's data starts on a block boundary and occupies max(1,((size + 511) / 512) contiguous blocks. At least one archive block is allo- cated to each archived file or directory so that aliases (multiple links) can be properly recorded. Each directory archived is treated as an empty file (I.E. no directory's data is stored). All entries representing links to a given file are identical. In particular, the fblk field in each link's entry contains the same block number. The archive label directory entry contains the following information: path A comment about this archive. mode Set by fbr to a file readable/writeable/executable by all. Other- wise unused. uid The userID of the user who created this archive. gid The groupID of the same. size The total number of bytes in the data area of the archive. This field in combination with the fblk field, records the size of both the directory area and the entire archive. acct The date-time that this archive was created - not its access time. modt The date-time that this archive was last altered. fblk The block number of the first archive block following the direc- tory area. checksum (same as any other directory entry.) SEE_ALSO fbr(1), stat(2). --- I'll be adding scans of the installation and service manual for the 8560 to bitsavers later today. Dug back though the Tek stuff I had bought a while ago, and I have an 8562 (11/73 cpu) and a 8501. Don't have any docs for those. The 8562 appears to use an I/O board with an 80186 instead of the 8088, and a Micropolis 5" drive. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 11 09:43:03 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 07:43:03 -0700 Subject: fbr format Message-ID: <4FAD2577.8080502@bitsavers.org> 8560 MUSDU System Reference Manual FBR(5) ___________________________________________________________________________ FBR(5) NAME fbr - file backup and restore format SYNTAX #include #include DESCRIPTION Fbr saves and restores directories and files on a floppy disk archive, preserving aliases (multiple links to the same file). The archive consists of: Boot block - Block zero is reserved for a copy of a stand-alone boot program. Directory area - This area contains directory information for all files and directories on the archive. The first entry in this area is dedicated to the archive label. Data area - The data of all files on the archive is stored here. The format of a directory entry (as given in the include file) fol- lows. To increase the portability of archives, this structure is read and written in PDP-11 format regardless of what machine fbr_is running on. #define PATHLEN 106 /* space for path */ struct fbrent { char fbr_path[PATHLEN]; /* pathname */ unsigned short fbr_mode; short fbr_uid; /* owner's userI^AD */ short fbr_gid; /* owner's groupID */ off_t fbr_size; /* size in bytes */ time_t fbr_acct; /* access date-time */ time_t fbr_modt; /* modify date-time */ unsigned fbr_fblk; /* firs^At data block */ char fbr_zero; /* unused */ char fbr_chks; /* checksum */ }; The path field is the pathname of the file when archived, less any redundant slashes or initial './'. It is null-terminated if less than PATHLEN bytes long. The mode, uid, gid, size, and access and modifi- cation date-times are in the same format as their corresponding i-node fields. As in the file system, an available entry has a mode of zero. The fblk field contains the block number of the first data block allo- cated to this file. The zero field is unused. The checksum field contains a number such that the sum of the first 127 bytes of the 1 FBR(5) 8560 MUSDU System Reference Manual ___________________________________________________________________________ directory entry and the complement of the checksum is zero. Each file's data starts on a block boundary and occupies max(1,((size + 511) / 512) contiguous blocks. At least one archive block is allo- cated to each archived file or directory so that aliases (multiple links) can be properly recorded. Each directory archived is treated as an empty file (I.E. no directory's data is stored). All entries representing links to a given file are identical. In particular, the fblk field in each link's entry contains the same block number. The archive label directory entry contains the following information: path A comment about this archive. mode Set by fbr to a file readable/writeable/executable by all. Other- wise unused. uid The userID of the user who created this archive. gid The groupID of the same. size The total number of bytes in the data area of the archive. This field in combination with the fblk field, records the size of both the directory area and the entire archive. acct The date-time that this archive was created - not its access time. modt The date-time that this archive was last altered. fblk The block number of the first archive block following the direc- tory area. checksum (same as any other directory entry.) SEE_ALSO fbr(1), stat(2). From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 11 09:52:18 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 08:52:18 -0600 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore (was: cctalk@classiccmp.org) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Paco Linux writes: > Very bad year: > http://semiaccurate.com/2012/05/04/amds-chuck-moore-has-passed-away/ Is this the same Chuck Moore that invented FORTH? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri May 11 10:20:14 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 11:20:14 -0400 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore (was: cctalk@classiccmp.org) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 11, 2012, at 10:52 AM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Paco Linux writes: > >> Very bad year: >> http://semiaccurate.com/2012/05/04/amds-chuck-moore-has-passed-away/ > > Is this the same Chuck Moore that invented FORTH? Don't think so; I don't think he had any association with AMD, nor has his blog mentioned anything about cancer (and it's certainly mentioned a great deal of other overly personal things, so I don't imagine he'd hold back on that). I could be wrong, though (and I would be very sad if I was, in this case). - Dave From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri May 11 10:35:59 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 10:35:59 -0500 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore (was: cctalk@classiccmp.org) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: sometimes people have no idea they have it feel sick go see a doc and days later their dead lost a few family friends this way and nieghbors :'( On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:20 AM, David Riley wrote: > On May 11, 2012, at 10:52 AM, Richard wrote: > > > > > In article N633f1oKHBT+4+tCu2nKrPAZz1yypkLd4e1Pd1vbxP1tA at mail.gmail.com>, > > Paco Linux writes: > > > >> Very bad year: > >> http://semiaccurate.com/2012/05/04/amds-chuck-moore-has-passed-away/ > > > > Is this the same Chuck Moore that invented FORTH? > > Don't think so; I don't think he had any association with AMD, nor has his > blog > mentioned anything about cancer (and it's certainly mentioned a great deal > of > other overly personal things, so I don't imagine he'd hold back on that). > > I could be wrong, though (and I would be very sad if I was, in this case). > > > > - Dave > > > > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri May 11 11:12:20 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 12:12:20 -0400 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore (was: cctalk@classiccmp.org) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8831B8ED-A755-4D62-AF44-39F75177BE2A@gmail.com> On May 11, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > sometimes people have no idea they have it feel sick go see a doc and days > later their dead lost a few family friends this way and nieghbors :'( While this is true, upon further investigation, the article linked to the obituary which has a picture of a 51-year-old guy who looks nothing like the Chuck Moore of Forth. Sad nonetheless. - Dave From jecel at merlintec.com Fri May 11 11:14:13 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 13:14:13 -0300 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore (was: cctalk@classiccmp.org) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201205111614.q4BGETFf052975@billy.ezwind.net> Richard, > Paco Linux writes: > > > Very bad year: > > http://semiaccurate.com/2012/05/04/amds-chuck-moore-has-passed-away/ > > Is this the same Chuck Moore that invented FORTH? No, this isn't the MISC guy but the (ironically, rather younger) TRIPS one: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~trips/people.html http://www.acm.org/fcrc/chuckmoore.html He was also known for IBM's POWER4 and AMD's new Bulldozer architecture. -- Jecel From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 11 12:11:11 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 13:11:11 -0400 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FAD482F.1050701@neurotica.com> On 05/11/2012 11:35 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > sometimes people have no idea they have it feel sick go see a doc and days > later their dead lost a few family friends this way and nieghbors :'( Ironically, I lost a relative two days ago due to exactly this problem. She was undergoing physical therapy due to a broken hip, and had a lot of pain...they thought it was just from the hip, so no tests were done. It wasn't just from the hip. Less than a week later she was gone. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri May 11 12:19:41 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 12:19:41 -0500 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore In-Reply-To: <4FAD482F.1050701@neurotica.com> References: <4FAD482F.1050701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: owtch sorry for ur loss On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 05/11/2012 11:35 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > sometimes people have no idea they have it feel sick go see a doc and > days > > later their dead lost a few family friends this way and nieghbors :'( > > Ironically, I lost a relative two days ago due to exactly this > problem. She was undergoing physical therapy due to a broken hip, and > had a lot of pain...they thought it was just from the hip, so no tests > were done. It wasn't just from the hip. Less than a week later she was > gone. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri May 11 12:28:50 2012 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 13:28:50 -0400 Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? Message-ID: <7decad01$302554f6$6806035f$@com> >> >> There was some debate at VCF East whether this "IBM 256KB Memory >> Card" P/N 6407740 is a bubble memory card (pic below). The card was >> on display with my IBM PC 5150 exhibit. I originally pulled it from >> an IBM 5155 portable. >> >> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ibm/5155/ibm_256KB_memory_card_6407740.jpg >> >> Typically you don't see 32-pin 64K RAM chips on a ISA card. That >> does not make it bubble memory though, so I put this out to the >> esteemed CCTECH community for answers/ideas. > >I doubt very much if it's bubble memory, for sevrral reasons. > > >I do wonder why it existed. It is trivial to put 640K on the motherboard >of a 5155, jsut as in a 5160 (XT). It's a matter of putting the right >TAMs in (41256s in banks 0 and 1, 4164s in banks 2 and 3), adding a >74S158 (or 74F158) in the enpty socket towards the front and jumpering E1 >to E2. UPDATE: I did not find the card listed in any manuals that I have, but I did find a reference to the 32-pin DRAM. If I were to guess, you'll find this card as an option specific to the IBM 5155 portable, to boost the system up to 512K. It's a small card, perfect for the smaller 5155 chassis. I should mention that I got this particular 5155 with the 256KB RAM card from an old IBM tech who wanted to find a home for some of his bench gear. Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 11 12:33:43 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 13:33:43 -0400 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore In-Reply-To: References: <4FAD482F.1050701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FAD4D77.808@neurotica.com> Thank you Adrian. It's a sucky week all around. I just learned of the passing of Claude Kagan as well. He will be missed. This stuff on the heels of a truly awesome VCF-East is really stirring up my brain! -Dave On 05/11/2012 01:19 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > owtch sorry for ur loss > > On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 05/11/2012 11:35 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> sometimes people have no idea they have it feel sick go see a doc and >> days >>> later their dead lost a few family friends this way and nieghbors :'( >> >> Ironically, I lost a relative two days ago due to exactly this >> problem. She was undergoing physical therapy due to a broken hip, and >> had a lot of pain...they thought it was just from the hip, so no tests >> were done. It wasn't just from the hip. Less than a week later she was >> gone. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA >> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri May 11 12:41:00 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 12:41:00 -0500 Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? In-Reply-To: <7decad01$302554f6$6806035f$@com> References: <7decad01$302554f6$6806035f$@com> Message-ID: posible it was something that was used in the ge workmasters? On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:28 PM, B. Degnan wrote: > > >> > >> There was some debate at VCF East whether this "IBM 256KB Memory > >> Card" P/N 6407740 is a bubble memory card (pic below). The card was > >> on display with my IBM PC 5150 exhibit. I originally pulled it from > >> an IBM 5155 portable. > >> > >> > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ibm/5155/ibm_256KB_memory_card_6407740.jpg > >> > >> Typically you don't see 32-pin 64K RAM chips on a ISA card. That > >> does not make it bubble memory though, so I put this out to the > >> esteemed CCTECH community for answers/ideas. > > > >I doubt very much if it's bubble memory, for sevrral reasons. > > > > > >I do wonder why it existed. It is trivial to put 640K on the motherboard > >of a 5155, jsut as in a 5160 (XT). It's a matter of putting the right > >TAMs in (41256s in banks 0 and 1, 4164s in banks 2 and 3), adding a > >74S158 (or 74F158) in the enpty socket towards the front and jumpering E1 > > >to E2. > > UPDATE: I did not find the card listed in any manuals that I have, but I > did find a reference to the 32-pin DRAM. If I were to guess, you'll find > this card as an option specific to the IBM 5155 portable, to boost the > system up to 512K. It's a small card, perfect for the smaller 5155 > chassis. I should mention that I got this particular 5155 with the 256KB > RAM card from an old IBM tech who wanted to find a home for some of his > bench gear. > > Bill > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri May 11 13:15:13 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 13:15:13 -0500 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore In-Reply-To: <4FAD4D77.808@neurotica.com> References: <4FAD482F.1050701@neurotica.com> <4FAD4D77.808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: thats why us younglings need to learn this stuff and keep computer heritage alive and well On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Thank you Adrian. It's a sucky week all around. I just learned of > the passing of Claude Kagan as well. He will be missed. > > This stuff on the heels of a truly awesome VCF-East is really stirring > up my brain! > > -Dave > > On 05/11/2012 01:19 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > owtch sorry for ur loss > > > > On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Dave McGuire >wrote: > > > >> On 05/11/2012 11:35 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >>> sometimes people have no idea they have it feel sick go see a doc and > >> days > >>> later their dead lost a few family friends this way and nieghbors :'( > >> > >> Ironically, I lost a relative two days ago due to exactly this > >> problem. She was undergoing physical therapy due to a broken hip, and > >> had a lot of pain...they thought it was just from the hip, so no tests > >> were done. It wasn't just from the hip. Less than a week later she was > >> gone. > >> > >> -Dave > >> > >> -- > >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > >> New Kensington, PA > >> > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 11 13:19:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 11:19:00 -0700 Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? In-Reply-To: <7decad01$302554f6$6806035f$@com> References: <7decad01$302554f6$6806035f$@com> Message-ID: <4FACF5A4.24950.D4A58F@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 May 2012 at 13:28, B. Degnan wrote: > UPDATE: I did not find the card listed in any manuals that I have, > but I did find a reference to the 32-pin DRAM. If I were to guess, > you'll find this card as an option specific to the IBM 5155 portable, > to boost the system up to 512K. It's a small card, perfect for the > smaller 5155 chassis. I should mention that I got this particular > 5155 with the 256KB RAM card from an old IBM tech who wanted to find a > home for some of his bench gear. The O&A mentions that it's designed for a 4.77MHz system, so that sort of limits the possibilities. The module is extremely compact for the time--9 x 64K each. The downside is that they're 3-rail units--and probably close to unobtainium nowadays. As I mentioned before, the thing *is* completely documented in the O&A. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 11 13:28:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 14:28:35 -0400 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore In-Reply-To: References: <4FAD482F.1050701@neurotica.com> <4FAD4D77.808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FAD5A53.8090303@neurotica.com> On 05/11/2012 02:15 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > thats why us younglings need to learn this stuff and keep computer heritage > alive and well Very true. Getting people in your age group (no offense intended) interested in anything other than video games is tough, though. That's why I always cut you slack with your typing habits! ;) You are doing great stuff up there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri May 11 14:01:42 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 14:01:42 -0500 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore In-Reply-To: <4FAD5A53.8090303@neurotica.com> References: <4FAD482F.1050701@neurotica.com> <4FAD4D77.808@neurotica.com> <4FAD5A53.8090303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: txs and eventually like to open a small museum of some sort got enough gear to do one even if its also a place the sells stuff to a degree. activly looking for a spot, found one for 69k that i could rent half of it out to a tenit to pay the mortage but alas no downpayment :(. though i am slowly saving money up as i can. On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 05/11/2012 02:15 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > thats why us younglings need to learn this stuff and keep computer > heritage > > alive and well > > Very true. Getting people in your age group (no offense intended) > interested in anything other than video games is tough, though. That's > why I always cut you slack with your typing habits! ;) You are doing > great stuff up there. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 11 14:17:33 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 21:17:33 +0200 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <4FAD2153.70803@bitsavers.org> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <20120511094150.87c6c0b5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4FAD2153.70803@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120511211733.2a05143e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 11 May 2012 07:25:23 -0700 Al Kossow wrote: > I'll be adding scans of the installation and service manual for the 8560 > to bitsavers later today. Thanks. I'll dig out my stuff and compare it to yours. If I have somthing to add I'll fire up the Octane and feed the docs through the ScanJet. Though, this will take some time. I can't get to the ScanJet right now. There are a Tek storage tube graphics terminal and two MicroVAX 2000 in the way. ETOMUCHJUNK... ;-( -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 11 14:26:14 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 21:26:14 +0200 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <20120511094150.87c6c0b5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120511212614.591a2446.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 11 May 2012 09:30:18 +0100 Simon Owen wrote: > SAMdisk.exe Ewwww. M$ Windoze! Sorry, I am a Unix person. In no way I am going to tuch M$ Windoze. But thanks for the hint anyway. Well. Most interresting part will be to get the images on real floppies. Thats what I really need. I hope my old Pentium 3 PeeCee and FreeDOS will be OK for ImageDisk... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 11 13:43:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 19:43:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <4FABC4CB.13110.12A770B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 10, 12 01:38:19 pm Message-ID: > I take a perverse delight in seeing how some can capitalize on some > fast talking or another's lack of the ability to think clearly. > Right now, one of the "hot" areas is cold fusion-ish projects: At least nucear fusion (at any temperature) is not contrary to any known laws of physics. There is a possibility (albeit a small one in my opinion, bit that is just my opinion) that a cold fusion device can be made to work. Perpetual motion machiens on the other hand violate at least one of the lwas of thermodynamics. Now, there's a small possibility that said laws are wrong. There is also a small possibility that gravity will stop working tomorrow. But I am not worried about waking up and finding my cklasisc computers floating aroudn the room. And yet people still try to make perpetual motion macvhiens, or something similar. [I must admit that when I was quite young, I read that a DC motor and geenrator were eessetianlly the same thing. Spinnign a small motor of the ype used in toys did, indeed generate a voltage that I could read on my mete. I spnt some time playing with different typs of motor,s gearing them together in various ways, trying to make a thing that could generate the power needed to run the motor that turned the gears and generator... Of coruse it never worked. Some years later I found out _why_ it never worked. But I am not sure I was totally foolish for trying. Was I?] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 11 13:50:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 19:50:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at May 10, 12 10:48:36 pm Message-ID: [Crackpot schemes] > I'd laugh if it wasn't so damned tragic. But if you never try anything new, you'll never dsicover anything ;-) > > And /this/ is why the worlds needs sound science education in schools. Hmm.... I can't understnad what 'sducation' has to do with 'schools' Perhaps I was unlucky, but in all my time at school I never had one mathematics or physcis teach who I considered to be clueful. And I never had a teacher in any subject who inspried me. > > (Yes, including evolution, before ChrisM sends me another email about > how I need to be Saved by Jesus or whatever.) I don't want to start The Great God Debate here (and for the record, I am agnostic, which is not the same as an atheist). My take on this is that science attempts to answer oen set of questions, religon attempts to answer a different set of queastions. Only when one is used to answer questions that should be covered by the other do problems arise. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 11 13:53:44 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 19:53:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bubble Memory "IBM 256KB Memory Card" P/N 6407740 ? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 10, 12 05:58:18 pm Message-ID: > I have one of these cards, given to me by one of the IBM old timers I see > from time to time. He is one of the original engineers for it. So, second > hand from the horses mouth - no, not bubble memory. The card was designed > specifically for use in the 5155, for some reason. I suspoect it was designed for the 5155, but it can be used in the 5150 and 5160 too. The point being that the 5155 layout is differnet to the otehr machines. Since the CRT monitor and PSU take up the entire elft side of the case, the motherboard is mounted towards the right side (not the left side as in the desktop machines) and thus most of the expansion slots are right behind the floppy drives. So only 'short' cards will fit. Making a 'short' memory card that would go in one of these slots was obviosly useful for such a machine. Why they didn't just put the memory on the motherboard, which they ahd designed to take it, is mystery, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 11 13:56:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 19:56:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC MS11-J (MOS memory) question In-Reply-To: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> from "Seth Morabito" at May 10, 12 08:24:52 pm Message-ID: > Those four missing ICs seem weird, though. The other board is is fully > populated. Were they just pulled before the PDP was trashed? Or is that > a valid configuration? I don;t think it's a 'correct; configuration, but it can work. Those extra ICs are more RAM chips, used to store the parity bits for each byte. If you don't have a partiy generator/checker board in the machine, it';ll work fine without them, -tony From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri May 11 15:06:12 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 16:06:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201205112006.QAA29419@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [I must admit that when I was quite young, [...ad-hoc M-G set...] I > spnt some time playing with different typs of motor,s gearing them > together in various ways, trying to make a thing that could generate > the power needed to run the motor that turned the gears and > generator... Of coruse it never worked. Some years later I found > out _why_ it never worked. But I am not sure I was totally foolish > for trying. Was I?] No, you were not. (Well, my opinion.) We wouldn't be so confident of conservation of energy if it weren't for an extremely large number of experiments that could have falsified it but didn't, like yours. (And some of the most interesting discoveries in physics have arisen from experiments that at first blush appeared to falsify it but on deeper investigation revealed something formerly unsuspected that made it all work out. Neutrinos were first invented, er, theorized to preserve conservation of energy.) What's more, the mindset of "investgate!" is what drives most human advancement. Investigations that don't end up where the investigator was initially trying to go aren't worthless - I daresay you developed some electrical and mechanical expertise while playing with that stuff! /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 11 15:31:08 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 22:31:08 +0200 Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: References: <4FABC4CB.13110.12A770B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120511223108.65101ed7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 11 May 2012 19:43:45 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > At least nucear fusion (at any temperature) is not contrary to any known > laws of physics. There is a possibility (albeit a small one in my > opinion, bit that is just my opinion) that a cold fusion device can be > made to work. How hot runs a Farnsworth?Hirsch fusor? > But I am not sure I was totally foolish for trying. Was I?] No, you wherent. To try and fail can be very enlightening when you realize _why_ you faild. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri May 11 16:18:18 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 17:18:18 -0400 Subject: Users of KED / KEX on the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <4FA7239F.1060603@compsys.to> References: <4FA7239F.1060603@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4FAD821A.1070007@compsys.to> Apart from one individual who responded but without any details of any systems or suggestion, there has been very little interest. As a proposal, I would like to adopt the names followed by the DEC RT-11 Development team which named the other programs after the VT52 and the VT62 which they supported. Within RT-11, the programs based on KED.SAV and KEX.SAV were named K52.SAV and K5x.SAV for the VT52 alone with K62.SAV and K6x.SAV for the VT52. For the VT420, my suggestion would be to use K42,SAV and K4x.SAV for the VT420. If anyone has any other suggestions, they would be appreciated. K42.SAV will support a maximum of 60 vertical lines for both 80 columns and 132 columns. If possible, K42.SAV will also support the VT100 so that a single program can be used with VT100 compatible terminals. Under a mapped monitor, there will be both K4x.SAV and K4x.REL which will perform as a system job in the same manner as K4x.SAV, but require much less low memory. Jerome Fine >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I would appreciate suggestions along with any information in regard > to the uses of KED / KEX > > This note is addressed to those users who still make modifications > to text files via KED / KEX. The number of such users may be > so small (zero) that there is no interest in my five aspects of the > proposed set of specifications at the very end of this post. Any > and all comments will be appreciated. > > However, Johnny Billquist recently mentioned that the VT420 > supports up to 48 vertical lines. This has provided the incentive > along with the justification to support at least that many vertical > lines under KED / KEX. After all, if an ALL DEC hardware > system is being used, then even though a VT420 with 48 lines > is not a supported hardware feature, often such new hardware > does work. > > Normally, when I use a PDP-11 environment, I run the Ersatz-11 > emulator. My video card, monitor, the rest of the hardware and > the operating system (so far Windows 98SE and Windows XP) > can support a full screen mode with the DOS version with either > 50 vertical lines by 80 columns or 44 vertical lines by 132 columns. > When the Win32 version is used, it is possible to initiate as: > E11 /CONSIZE:80x60 > to have a screen of either 60 vertical lines by 80 columns or > 60 vertical lines by 132 columns. For both the DOS and the > Win32 version, using the wide screen command (under KED / KEX): > SET SCREEN 132 > changes the number of columns to 132 text characters with the DOS > version of E11 then reverting to 44 vertical lines (full screen mode > must be used for 132 columns) while the Win32 version of E11 > retains the same number of vertical lines (allowing up to 60 vertical > lines - fewer vertical lines are allowed and the default is 24 > vertical lines). > > While there might be valid reasons for using either the DOS version > or the Win32 versions of Ersatz-11 with more than 24 vertical lines, > but less then 44 vertical lines, I really do not see much point in > doing so. > Increasing the number of vertical lines by less than 20 lines does not > seem like much of an advantage. If subsequent testing shows that other > options of vertical line number between 24 lines and 44 lines can run > correctly, then that will be considered a bonus. Unless there is a > specific request for a specific option of lines by columns that is not > listed below, no additions will be made to that list. > > NOTE that not all hardware / software combinations of a PC support > 132 character text lines under the DOS version of E11. I searched > for quite some time to find a video controller / monitor / cable > connection > to run under Windows XP which would support 132 character text > lines. As far as I know, all Win32 versions of E11 support 132 character > text lines. Depending on the screen setting for the monitor (i.e. the > number of pixels), 24 lines can always be supported and around 48 lines > can be supported with using screens of 1280 by 1024 pixels. If > 60 lines are to be supported, a larger pixel count is required. A screen > of 1800 by 1440 pixels has been found to easily support 60 lines under > the Win32 version of Erstaz-11. > > But, before I freeze the specs for the changes to KED / KEX, some > feedback from other users would be helpful. Just how many vertical lines > would be useful? Is a somewhat compressed character set (only when > using the DOS full screen version) a sufficient deterrent to having 50 > vertical lines as opposed to 24 vertical lines? Of course, Ersatz-11 > would need to be checked out to determine if 60 vertical lines are > supported when KED / KEX are used. And, of course, there > is always the possibility that technical considerations might prohibit > support of 60 vertical lines when KED / KEX are used. And finally, > is it essential that the version of KED / KEX which supports 60 vertical > lines also support terminals with only 24 vertical lines? Or is it > reasonable > that the user know the physical characteristics of the terminal such as > when a VT52 is used with K52.SAV and a VT100 is used with KED.SAV? > Obviously, the current versions of KED / KEX will not support 60 vertical > lines or I would not be writing this note. But, it might be very > difficult to > have KED / KEX support both 24 vertical lines and 60 vertical lines > with the same code. > > In addition, a buffer must be present within KED / KEX which is large > enough to hold all of the characters being displayed on the screen. > When the maximum number of characters is 3168 characters (=24*132), > that buffer is reasonable to accommodate. If the maximum number of > characters is 7920 (=60*132), there may be insufficient room left for > other requirements. The solution might be to locate the screen > buffer elsewhere since, in particular, with the KEX version, there > are some memory address locations which are not being used. > > One more point. Most of the time, I run 4 system jobs under RT-11 > using KEX. The low memory required for each job is 801 words. > This seems like substantially more than should be required. If the > required number of words could be reduced by 352 words to just > 449 words, would that be helpful? > > In summary, here are the specs thus far: > > (a) Enhance KED / KEX to support at least 50 vertical lines and up > to 60 vertical lines if possible > (b) If possible, the same versions of KED / KEX should support any > number of vertical lines up to 60 vertical lines > (c) If possible, the modified versions of KED / KEX should have as > few differences as possible from the versions of KED / KED > which support only 24 vertical lines > (d) Support for different vertical lines will specifically include: > - the standard DEC VT100 screens of: > o 24 lines by 80 columns > o 24 lines by 132 columns > o 14 lines by 132 columns (no avo option) > - the video cards on a PC running a PDP-11 under the DOS > version > of Ersatz-11 which supports these full screen options: > o 24 lines of 80 columns > o 24 lines of 132 columns > o 50 lines of 80 columns > o 44 lines by 132 columns > - the normal windows support on a PC running a PDP-11 under the > Win32 version of Ersatz-11 (tested on Windows 98SE and XP): > o 24 lines by 80 columns > o 24 lines by 132 columns > o from 44 to 60 lines by 80 columns > o from 44 to 60 lines by 132 columns > - additional screen configurations if suggested - however, > only two > column sizes, 80 and 132 columns, will be supported > (e) Reduce the low memory words required from 801 to 449 words > for system jobs under a mapped RT-11 monitor as in: > SRUN KEX.REL/LEVEL:n/TERMINAL:n/NAME:Kn (n = 1 to 6) > > Suggestions and any other information would be very much appreciated. > > Jerome Fine From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 11 16:46:31 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 14:46:31 -0700 Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <20120511223108.65101ed7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4FABC4CB.13110.12A770B@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20120511223108.65101ed7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4FAD2647.4311.192A332@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 May 2012 at 22:31, Jochen Kunz wrote: > No, you wherent. To try and fail can be very enlightening when you > realize _why_ you faild. -- I think the important thing that's been missed in all of this is that the outfits involved are attracting capital from investors and "licensees" without delivering a single functional unit--just promises. After all, Keeley fooled his investors his entire life. Only after he died was his fraud discovered--and in the meantime, he had all of their money. Lest anyone think that Keeley's scam died with him, consider Black Light Power: http://blacklightpower.com/ Or PlasmERG: http://blacklightpower.com/ Or Nanospire: https://nanospireinc.com/ ...or a host of other people. The rule of thumb is to get a too-good-to-be-true idea, surround it with some mumbo-jumbo and then pay some should-never-have-been- awarded-a-degree PhDs to lend credence to you. So why not take these things on blind faith? Well, for starters, having blind faith in a huckster can lead to unfortunate consequences: http://bit.ly/Jo0cjD Some times, it's wise to do your own research and take claims with a grain of salt. Anyone want to buy a laundry ball? --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 11 17:32:57 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 16:32:57 -0600 Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <20120511223108.65101ed7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4FABC4CB.13110.12A770B@cclist.sydex.com> <20120511223108.65101ed7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4FAD9399.1040100@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/11/2012 2:31 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 11 May 2012 19:43:45 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> At least nucear fusion (at any temperature) is not contrary to any known >> laws of physics. There is a possibility (albeit a small one in my >> opinion, bit that is just my opinion) that a cold fusion device can be >> made to work. > How hot runs a Farnsworth?Hirsch fusor? Build one and find out... Still HOT fusion. >> But I am not sure I was totally foolish for trying. Was I?] > No, you wherent. To try and fail can be very enlightening when you > realize _why_ you faild. Ben. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 11 17:40:41 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 15:40:41 -0700 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <20120511212614.591a2446.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <20120511094150.87c6c0b5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120511212614.591a2446.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4FAD9569.8090309@bitsavers.org> On 5/11/12 12:26 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > I hope my old Pentium 3 PeeCee > and FreeDOS will be OK for ImageDisk... The one problem you might have is the first track is single density. From als at thangorodrim.de Fri May 11 19:29:05 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 02:29:05 +0200 Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: References: <4FABC4CB.13110.12A770B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120512002905.GB18870@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 07:43:45PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > [I must admit that when I was quite young, I read that a DC motor and > geenrator were eessetianlly the same thing. Spinnign a small motor of the > ype used in toys did, indeed generate a voltage that I could read on my > mete. I spnt some time playing with different typs of motor,s gearing > them together in various ways, trying to make a thing that could generate > the power needed to run the motor that turned the gears and generator... > Of coruse it never worked. Some years later I found out _why_ it never > worked. But I am not sure I was totally foolish for trying. Was I?] You weren't foolish at all. You had an idea and you experimented to see if/how it could work. You didn't tell the world "I know how to build a perpetual motion machine!", you experimented and, when the experiment disagreed with the theory, accepted that. And later learned why it didn't - in fact couldn't - work. Nothing wrong with that, quite the opposite. If only more people would actually _test_ their theories with proper experiments before trusting them. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Fri May 11 19:44:21 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 02:44:21 +0200 Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <20120511223108.65101ed7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4FABC4CB.13110.12A770B@cclist.sydex.com> <20120511223108.65101ed7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120512004421.GD18870@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:31:08PM +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 11 May 2012 19:43:45 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > At least nucear fusion (at any temperature) is not contrary to any known > > laws of physics. There is a possibility (albeit a small one in my > > opinion, bit that is just my opinion) that a cold fusion device can be > > made to work. > How hot runs a Farnsworth?Hirsch fusor? Cold enough to not turn the garage into a pit of molten rock ;-) Well, the baseline for "hot fusion" are stellar environments (our sun has a core temperature of about 16 Million Kelvin) and the insides of Tokamaks actually producing fusion reaction, also in the millions of Kelvins. But the Farnsworth/Hirsch Fusor, while a useful tabletop source of neutrons, cannot become a net energy source due to design inherent losses. The Polywell system looks potentially promising here ... Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Fri May 11 19:33:34 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 02:33:34 +0200 Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <201205112006.QAA29419@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201205112006.QAA29419@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120512003334.GC18870@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 04:06:12PM -0400, Mouse wrote: > > [I must admit that when I was quite young, [...ad-hoc M-G set...] I > > spnt some time playing with different typs of motor,s gearing them > > together in various ways, trying to make a thing that could generate > > the power needed to run the motor that turned the gears and > > generator... Of coruse it never worked. Some years later I found > > out _why_ it never worked. But I am not sure I was totally foolish > > for trying. Was I?] > > No, you were not. (Well, my opinion.) We wouldn't be so confident of > conservation of energy if it weren't for an extremely large number of > experiments that could have falsified it but didn't, like yours. (And > some of the most interesting discoveries in physics have arisen from > experiments that at first blush appeared to falsify it but on deeper > investigation revealed something formerly unsuspected that made it all > work out. Neutrinos were first invented, er, theorized to preserve > conservation of energy.) > > What's more, the mindset of "investgate!" is what drives most human > advancement. Investigations that don't end up where the investigator > was initially trying to go aren't worthless - I daresay you developed > some electrical and mechanical expertise while playing with that stuff! Well, it has been said that the words most likely to be uttered before an important scientific discovery are not "Heureka!" but "Hmm, that's odd ..." ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 11 20:28:45 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 19:28:45 -0600 Subject: perpetuial motion In-Reply-To: <20120512004421.GD18870@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4FABC4CB.13110.12A770B@cclist.sydex.com> <20120511223108.65101ed7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120512004421.GD18870@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4FADBCCD.6040107@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/11/2012 6:44 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > But the Farnsworth/Hirsch Fusor, while a useful tabletop source of > neutrons, cannot become a net energy source due to design inherent > losses. > > The Polywell system looks potentially promising here ... Don't know about that. Has any work been done, in fission/fusion reactions. The Farnsworth fusior, producing reaction products that catalyst a fission reaction. I wonder if we need a better computer model. Here is nice animation - The secret life of the cell http://www.studiodaily.com/2006/07/cellular-visions-the-inner-life-of-a-cell/ Now if one could go deeper, perhaps nucular reactions may be better under stood. > Kind regards, > Alex. Ben. From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri May 11 20:46:13 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 21:46:13 -0400 Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <20120512003334.GC18870@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <201205112006.QAA29419@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120512003334.GC18870@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <88281A7C-711D-4227-898F-1F1AE905EE0E@gmail.com> On May 11, 2012, at 8:33 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Well, it has been said that the words most likely to be uttered > before an important scientific discovery are not "Heureka!" but > "Hmm, that's odd ..." ;-) That, or "Oops!". - Dave From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 11 21:35:56 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 19:35:56 -0700 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore (was: cctalk@classiccmp.org) In-Reply-To: <201205111614.q4BGETFf052975@billy.ezwind.net> References: , , <201205111614.q4BGETFf052975@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > From: jecel at merlintec.com > > Richard, > > Paco Linux writes: > > > > > Very bad year: > > > http://semiaccurate.com/2012/05/04/amds-chuck-moore-has-passed-away/ > > > > Is this the same Chuck Moore that invented FORTH? > > No, this isn't the MISC guy but the (ironically, rather younger) TRIPS > one: > > http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~trips/people.html > > http://www.acm.org/fcrc/chuckmoore.html > > He was also known for IBM's POWER4 and AMD's new Bulldozer architecture. > > -- Jecel > Hi Know and knew both Chuck Moores. The loss of either one is a serious loss. Chuck Moore of Forth is still hanging in there. Dwight From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat May 12 00:13:14 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 01:13:14 -0400 Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools References: <201205112006.QAA29419@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120512003334.GC18870@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <88281A7C-711D-4227-898F-1F1AE905EE0E@gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Riley" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 9:46 PM Subject: Re: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools > On May 11, 2012, at 8:33 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > >> Well, it has been said that the words most likely to be uttered >> before an important scientific discovery are not "Heureka!" but >> "Hmm, that's odd ..." ;-) > > That, or "Oops!". > > > - Dave More like "Oh Shiiiiiii.........." BOOM! Actually quite a few important things came about from accidents or otherwise failed experiments and quite a few people died over the years exploring areas of the unknown. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 12 02:30:41 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 09:30:41 +0200 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <4FAD9569.8090309@bitsavers.org> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <20120511094150.87c6c0b5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120511212614.591a2446.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4FAD9569.8090309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120512093041.aae65650.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 11 May 2012 15:40:41 -0700 Al Kossow wrote: > > I hope my old Pentium 3 PeeCee > > and FreeDOS will be OK for ImageDisk... > The one problem you might have is the first track is single density. Sorry for my stupidity. I am almost ignorant to floppy format details. What is the problem with single density? Is a PeeCee floppy controler unable to write this format? I can setup a MicroVAX with a RX02 clone that can format, read and write single density 8" floppies. Though, I know that the RX02 double density format is somewhat strange. (IIRC single density headers with double density data.) Would it be possible to replace the 8" floppy in the Tek 8560 with a 5.25" floppy? 5.25" floppy media are somewhat easier to get. I already used a 5.25" floppy on that RX02 clone. So it should work. If "everything fails" there is still the DiscFerret as a "last hope". -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 12 02:54:43 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 00:54:43 -0700 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <20120512093041.aae65650.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org>, <4FAD9569.8090309@bitsavers.org>, <20120512093041.aae65650.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4FADB4D3.1387.3BF77B7@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 May 2012 at 9:30, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Sorry for my stupidity. I am almost ignorant to floppy format details. > What is the problem with single density? Is a PeeCee floppy controler > unable to write this format? Some can, some can't. Some can only read single density (FM); some can neither read nor write FM. It all depends on the chip (or combination thereof) used. Oddly, later systems with SMSC "SuperIO" chips have better luck with this. I remember complaining to Intel that the 82077AA-1 stepping completely broke FM writing (and some reading). They said that FM wasn't important enough to deal with then--or in the future. If you have an old PC system with a National Semi 8473 or 8473, you've got the best of the lot. WD37C65 controllers are also okay. Hope this helps, --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 12 10:48:02 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 17:48:02 +0200 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <4FADB4D3.1387.3BF77B7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <4FAD9569.8090309@bitsavers.org> <20120512093041.aae65650.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4FADB4D3.1387.3BF77B7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120512174802.dca836a6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 12 May 2012 00:54:43 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > What is the problem with single density? Is a PeeCee floppy controler > > unable to write this format? > Some can, some can't. [...] Thanks for the information. Now I understand the purpose and reason for the TestFDC program. So I have to try different PeeCees until I get to one that does the trick. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat May 12 12:10:45 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 13:10:45 -0400 Subject: DigiDesign DSP cards Message-ID: <78D632CC-AEF4-441A-AD3F-FE46B5F142AD@gmail.com> I recently acquired a PowerMac 9600/233 with a bunch of DigiDesign DSP Farm cards in it. I have no intention of using this machine for Pro Tools, but I can think of a few fun things to do with some PCI cards full of DSP56k chips. Does anyone know anything about where to get technical details of the cards? DigiDesign is, understandably, rather mum on the internals, but I can't imagine it's all that complex. Worst case, I can probably reverse-engineer the drivers, but that's rather labor-intensive. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 12 13:07:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 11:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <20120512093041.aae65650.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <20120511094150.87c6c0b5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120511212614.591a2446.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4FAD9569.8090309@bitsavers.org> <20120512093041.aae65650.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120512105602.D22256@shell.lmi.net> > > > I hope my old Pentium 3 PeeCee > > > and FreeDOS will be OK for ImageDisk... > > The one problem you might have is the first track is single density. On Sat, 12 May 2012, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Sorry for my stupidity. I am almost ignorant to floppy format details. > What is the problem with single density? Is a PeeCee floppy controler > unable to write this format? The original 5150 FDC board was hard-wired for MFM ("double density"). It could not do single density, even if you gave it the single density commands. It COULD be modified. (Flagstaff Engineering did!) SOME later FDC chips did the MFM/FM switch entirely in software. SOME of those can do single density. David Dunfield studied the issues, and even wrote some test software to check compatability with FM and MFM 128 byte sectors (another NEC style chip issue) > I can setup a MicroVAX with a RX02 clone that can format, read and > write single density 8" floppies. Though, I know that the RX02 double > density format is somewhat strange. (IIRC single density headers with > double density data.) Well, THAT would certainly be enough to prevent any access using a WD or NEC style FDC chip! > Would it be possible to replace the 8" floppy in the Tek 8560 with a > 5.25" floppy? 5.25" floppy media are somewhat easier to get. I already > used a 5.25" floppy on that RX02 clone. So it should work. Probably. The 1.2M floppy was developed as an 8" replacement. In fact, the first one that I got (Mitsubishi) had a 50 pin connector on it. You would have some struggles working out jumpering, and "minor" details, such as head load, etc. > If "everything fails" there is still the DiscFerret as a "last hope". People tend to make their "last hope" be something that they know even less about, and have little chance of success if their other approaches failed. And yet, those same systems can function beutifully in the hands of somebody who is familiar with them and knows what is going on. From useddec at gmail.com Sat May 12 13:39:18 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 13:39:18 -0500 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore In-Reply-To: <4FAD482F.1050701@neurotica.com> References: <4FAD482F.1050701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, Sorry for your loss. Most of my health problems are more quality of life rather than life threatening. But I do have someone very dear to me that has been on a paticulal clinical trial longer than anyone in the US. They think she might have reached the point of toxicity and might give her one more treatment. We are running out of options. You just never know. Take Care, Paul On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 05/11/2012 11:35 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> sometimes people have no idea they have it feel sick go see a doc and days >> later their dead lost a few family friends this way and nieghbors :'( > > ?Ironically, I lost a relative two days ago due to exactly this > problem. ?She was undergoing physical therapy due to a broken hip, and > had a lot of pain...they thought it was just from the hip, so no tests > were done. ?It wasn't just from the hip. ?Less than a week later she was > gone. > > ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat May 12 13:47:41 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 14:47:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <20120512105602.D22256@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <20120511094150.87c6c0b5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120511212614.591a2446.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4FAD9569.8090309@bitsavers.org> <20120512093041.aae65650.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120512105602.D22256@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201205121847.OAA15716@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > People tend to make their "last hope" be something that they know > even less about, and have little chance of success if their other > approaches failed. Hardly surprising; it only makes sense to try the things you know before the things you don't. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dm561 at torfree.net Sat May 12 14:51:45 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 15:51:45 -0400 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images References: Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 00:54:43 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" > If you have an old PC system with a National Semi 8473 or 8473, you've got > the best of the lot. But what if you've got an 8473 instead? ;-) From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 12 15:48:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 13:48:15 -0700 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4FAE6A1F.26097.90C70C@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 May 2012 at 15:51, MikeS wrote: > Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 00:54:43 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > > > If you have an old PC system with a National Semi 8473 or 8473, > > you've got the best of the lot. > > But what if you've got an 8473 instead? I meant PC8477 for the second. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 12 15:23:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 21:23:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <20120512003334.GC18870@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> from "Alexander Schreiber" at May 12, 12 02:33:34 am Message-ID: > Well, it has been said that the words most likely to be uttered > before an important scientific discovery are not "Heureka!" but I am please that at least one other person knows how to pronounce that correctly ;-) > "Hmm, that's odd ..." ;-) Indeed. You are most likely not going to discover anything new if you keep on getting the expected results. Investigating the oddities is what leads to really new discovereies. As regardfs my 'perpetual motion#' device, as I said I was quite young when I treid it. At the time I probalby didn't ahv a clear concept of 'energy', let alone know the conservation laws. So I don't think I was foolish to try. And having failed, I had a commonsense idea of the conservation of energy when I came acorss the concept formally. And no, I didn't try to get investors :-) IMHO it is never wrong to invsestigate thigns like this. In fact if more people tried making things, had ideas and did experiemtns, etc then the world would be a better place. -tony From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sat May 12 16:13:26 2012 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 06:43:26 +0930 Subject: A fool inand his money, was: USB cables for audophools In-Reply-To: <20120512003334.GC18870@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <201205112006.QAA29419@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120512003334.GC18870@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <201205130643.26982.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Sat, 12 May 2012 10:03:34 AM Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Well, it has been said that the words most likely to be uttered > before an important scientific discovery are not "Heureka!" but > "Hmm, that's odd ..." ;-) > > Kind regards, > Alex. "Heureka" is Greek for, "this bath is too hot!" -- The Doctor Alexis. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 13 00:50:02 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 01:50:02 -0400 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore In-Reply-To: References: <4FAD482F.1050701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <89EF4254-858E-4DA4-8007-3D75A440E7CA@neurotica.com> Ugh. I'm sorry to hear it Paul. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On May 12, 2012, at 2:39 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Sorry for your loss. Most of my health problems are more quality of > life rather than life threatening. But I do have someone very dear to > me that has been on a paticulal clinical trial longer than anyone in > the US. They think she might have reached the point of toxicity and > might give her one more treatment. We are running out of options. You > just never know. > > Take Care, Paul > > On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 05/11/2012 11:35 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> sometimes people have no idea they have it feel sick go see a doc and days >>> later their dead lost a few family friends this way and nieghbors :'( >> >> Ironically, I lost a relative two days ago due to exactly this >> problem. She was undergoing physical therapy due to a broken hip, and >> had a lot of pain...they thought it was just from the hip, so no tests >> were done. It wasn't just from the hip. Less than a week later she was >> gone. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > From holm at freibergnet.de Sun May 13 04:40:38 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 11:40:38 +0200 Subject: ROI PDP11 Qbus Cards.. Message-ID: <20120513094038.GA87345@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, I have 2 Q-Bus Memory Boards from "ROI", one is an 256KiB the other an 1MB Double size Board. Both are equipped with an AM2964 Memory Controller and the 1MB Board seams to be the successor of the 256KiB Board, small changes besides the Memory. Both Boards have 4x9 Memory Chips (4164/41256) and two 74S280 Parity Generators on it. I've tested the memories with some xxdp Tests, some of them are complaining that there are no parity Registers on the Boards and are aborting. VMSACO tests both boards w/o Errors but mentiones that there are no Paritiy Registers. What have they build here? Has anyone documentation for that Boards? The 256KB Board has only "ROI RAM1" on the PCB, the 1MB one has ROI "MRL-11" on it and a sticker with "M1M10311". Than I have another ROI Board, It has two rows of blinkenlights on the front, displaying the state of some BUS Signals, but there is also a 10 Pin Berg Connector on it. The board mostly consists of an empty Pin hole area but there is also an Xtal-Oszillator with 5.0688Mhz, a GAL, a 74HC39, an 74HC74, an 74HC4040 and an 74HC04 on it. This Board is Labeled "ROI BSB11". I think that the berg connector provides some access for Reset and Halt Switches, Electonics possibly are for the DCOK and ACOK Signals? Does anyone know more? Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From djg at pdp8online.com Thu May 10 07:02:28 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 08:02:28 -0400 Subject: VCFeast, H960s, and module cleaning. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120510120228.GA8356@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Tue, May 08, 2012 at 05:52:54PM +0000, Mike Ross wrote: > > 2. From time to time I've seen discussion of cleaning techniques for > circuit boards here, specifically DEC modules, mostly the M-series > flip-chip stuff. Was there ever any final conclusion as to the best way > to cosmetically clean them? > I've seen accounts of washing them in (?soapy?) water, rinsing, and leaving > them in sun to dry. Is that really safe? > I don't think a final conclusion is likely. I have done the hand dish soap wash, rinse, and blow water off with air compressor. My last was for R series but I have done M. I don't immerse any component that may not be sealed like pots, the old non epoxy encapsulated transformers. Those I use damp brush and damp cloth anywhere around the sensitive components. I used a normal and desiccant filter on the compressor to try to remove all oil/water from the air. I let them sit for a little while then put them back in the backplane with only the fans running to finish drying. I haven't tried much painting so can't help there. From djg at pdp8online.com Thu May 10 07:08:04 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 08:08:04 -0400 Subject: Tek tube In-Reply-To: <1336574153.64635.YahooMailClassic@web184515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1336574153.64635.YahooMailClassic@web184515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120510120804.GB8356@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 07:35:53AM -0700, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > The 154-0624-11 was used in the Tektronix 611 display. > My manual says its a 154-0518-00. The manual is dated 1970. From bqt at softjar.se Thu May 10 13:24:01 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 20:24:01 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/35 (And: It's good to be back) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FAC07C1.40503@softjar.se> On 2012-05-10 02.53, Seth Morabito wrote: > Hi folks, > > First I'd just like to say it's good to be back. I think I first joined > Classiccmp in 1998-ish, and I've been on-again off-again as time and > life has permitted participation in the hobby. Following a very long > time spent off the list, it's really good to finally be back. I've > missed this place a lot. [...] Hi Seth. Long time no see indeed. Nice to hear you're getting some usable computers again. ;-) Johnny From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu May 10 21:30:10 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 19:30:10 -0700 Subject: Heathkit Educational Systems Closes Up Shop In-Reply-To: <1336701953.72894.YahooMailNeo@web113516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4FA9C80D.1090600@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at May 8, 12 08:27:41 pm <1336701953.72894.YahooMailNeo@web113516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FAC79B2.7070204@gorge.net> Christian Liendo wrote: > This is from the ARRL but I figured some people would like this here > > http://www.arrl.org/news/heathkit-educational-systems-closes-up-shop > > > Slashdot has a discussion about this sad development. Jim. From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu May 10 23:41:52 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 21:41:52 -0700 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FAC9890.6030002@gorge.net> Hi Al, Did you ever archive any of the Tek 6250 / 6130 / 4132 UTek OS images? Rick Bensen and I have a pile of hardware between us and it would be nice to put together a working example of this aborted, but unique and rare system. Thanks, Jim Davis Al Kossow wrote: > The machines arrived from San Diego this week, and the disks were > readable. > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/856x > > From tpresence at hotmail.com Fri May 11 16:03:18 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 15:03:18 -0600 Subject: Commodore Plus/4 Oddity In-Reply-To: References: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> from "Seth Morabito" at May 10, 12 08:24:52 pm, Message-ID: I was going through my vintage machines collection and happened to notice something strange with a commodore plus/4 I have. On the right side, there was an additional RCA connector that I had never seen before this. Opening it up, it appears to only have a wire jumpered from one of its connections to pin 6 on the serial port. I can't imagine why someone would do this. Any ideas? Pictures are here. http://imgur.com/a/CFUPs Kevin From bigral at hotmail.com Fri May 11 16:08:23 2012 From: bigral at hotmail.com (Andriy Romanenko) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 00:08:23 +0300 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip Message-ID: Hello All, I wonder if anyone here want to try create tiny PDP-11 compatible computer using KM1801VM1B CPU. This chip still available in small quantities. The system could use an microcontroller such as ATmega1284 and/or big CPLD to emulate all required peripherals. There were many systems using this chip, but unfortunately most of them contains enough gold to became firstclass target for gold scrap hunters. Here is related link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1801_series_CPU Thanks, Andrey From dfenyes at gmail.com Fri May 11 17:25:53 2012 From: dfenyes at gmail.com (David Fenyes) Date: Fri, 11 May 2012 17:25:53 -0500 Subject: VCF East pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FAD91F1.9080708@gmail.com> Hi Mike, I enjoyed meeting you at the VCF last weekend. I really liked your 2209E and 2467 terminal. It's a beautiful system, really. I'm sure you talked to a ton of people, and can't remember everyone. You described in some detail how you were finally able to remove the screen glass cover, and get rid of the glue to remove the "screen rot". I was interested because I have an HP9845A with the same affliction. I wish I could have spent more time reading your posters and poking around your hardware, but I didn't allot enough time at the exhibits this year. Next year I will know better. Just wanted to touch base, and congratulate you on a first rate exhibit. Best regards, Dave From bigral at hotmail.com Sat May 12 03:48:17 2012 From: bigral at hotmail.com (Andriy Romanenko) Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 11:48:17 +0300 Subject: FW: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello All, I wonder if anyone here want to try to build tiny PDP-11 compatible computer using KM1801VM3B CPU. This chip still available in small quantities (price range is $10...$35). The system could use an microcontroller such as ATmega1284 and/or big CPLD to emulate all required peripherals. There were systems using this chip, but unfortunately most of them contains enough gold to became firstclass target for gold scrap hunters. So, it's very hard to find working system today. Here is related link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1801_series_CPU Thanks, Andrey From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun May 13 08:19:59 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 09:19:59 -0400 Subject: TC01 DECtape Formatter Documentation Needed Message-ID: Does anyone have the documentation to go with the DEC-08-EUFB-PB TC01-TU55 DECTAPE FORMATTER? -- Michael Thompson From jonas at otter.se Thu May 10 14:28:07 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 21:28:07 +0200 Subject: More photos from VCF East 8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FAC16C7.1030304@otter.se> On Thu, 10 May 2012 10:40:08 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Jonas Otter wrote: >> > On ?Wed, 9 May 2012 09:04:07 -0700, "Michael Holley" >> > wrote: >>> >> >>> >> I was told the load from hard disk was page fault the swapped the desired >>> >> data back into memory. >>> >> >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >>> >> On Behalf Of Tom Uban >>> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 5:33 AM >>> >> >>> >> One note on the PDP-11/03 booting the VAX-11/780, the PDP-11/03 first >>> >> loads the microcode into the VAX-11/780, thereby defining the machine's >>> >> higher level of operating code, then a bootstrap to load from a particular >>> >> hard disk or tape is run. On most PDP-11s, the microcode is stored in >>> >> ROMs or is hard wired. >>> >> >> > VMS always loads a program by page faulting it into memory. That mechanism >> > would AFAIK not work for booting, because the whole paging software, disk >> > drivers etc would have to be loaded and initialized first. I don't remember >> > offhand what it says in the VMS internals book about booting, but I could >> > look it up. > I, too, would have to look up details, but from what I remember about the 11/730 > (which has an 8085 as a front-end processor, not a PDP-11, but AFAIK, the > general principles still apply), the FEP loads VMB.EXE from the console medium > (RX01 for the 11/780, TU58 for the 11/730) into VAX main memory then kicks the > processor into run mode. > > The 11/750 is a different beast - it has native boot ROMs and no FEP (there's > an A-D selector switch, and there are several common arrangements of boot > ROMs, including for third-party disk controllers) > > -ethan According to the VMS Internals book, SYSBOOT (secondary bootstrap, loaded after VMB) sets up the system page table. SYSBOOT loads EXE$INIT and transfers control to it. EXE$INIT then does all the work of setting up page tables, loading the paging subsystem and turning on memory management. So it appears that no paging in of anything can occur until at least EXE$INIT has done its work. /Jonas From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun May 13 15:16:44 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 13:16:44 -0700 Subject: Tek tube In-Reply-To: <20120510120804.GB8356@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <1336574153.64635.YahooMailClassic@web184515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120510120804.GB8356@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <4FB016AC.70505@sbcglobal.net> On 5/10/2012 5:08 AM, David Gesswein wrote: > On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 07:35:53AM -0700, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> The 154-0624-11 was used in the Tektronix 611 display. >> > My manual says its a 154-0518-00. The manual is dated 1970. > My 1970 manual 611 mod 162C shows the 0518 and the 0624 CRT's. The 0581 was for serial numbers B010100 to b 129999 The 0624 for later numbers. Bob From holm at freibergnet.de Sun May 13 15:32:57 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 22:32:57 +0200 Subject: FW: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> Andriy Romanenko wrote: > > Hello All, > > I wonder if anyone here want to try to build tiny PDP-11 compatible computer using KM1801VM3B CPU. This chip still available in small quantities (price range is $10...$35). The system could use an microcontroller such as ATmega1284 and/or big CPLD to emulate all required peripherals. There were systems using this chip, but unfortunately most of them contains enough gold to became firstclass target for gold scrap hunters. So, it's very hard to find working system today. > > Here is related link: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1801_series_CPU > > > Thanks, > > Andrey > ...have three of them and some VM2 too. I where interested in such a project. Currently I'm trying to build ans SBC out of an VM2 with some old Tesla MVB1012 Chips (AY5-1013?) and a CPLD... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From gm10 at consulnix.com Sun May 13 15:36:28 2012 From: gm10 at consulnix.com (Garrett Meiers) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 15:36:28 -0500 Subject: Commodore Plus/4 Oddity In-Reply-To: References: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: I'm not 100% sure of the pinout for the serial port, but I've seen tapping off of ports to provide additional power to external devices. Like the Cardco Card?+G parallel printer interface has a connector with a single wire that plugs into the cassette port for extra power. I've seen people instead run this to pin 7 of the game controller port of C64's, etc., to keep the cassette port free. So, maybe its something similar. Garrett Meiers On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > > I was going through my vintage machines collection and happened to notice > something strange with a commodore plus/4 I have. > > On the right side, there was an additional RCA connector that I had never > seen before this. > > Opening it up, it appears to only have a wire jumpered from one of its > connections to pin 6 on the serial port. > > I can't imagine why someone would do this. Any ideas? > > Pictures are here. > > http://imgur.com/a/CFUPs > > Kevin > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun May 13 15:41:26 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 15:41:26 -0500 Subject: TC01 DECtape Formatter Documentation Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: when i get home tonight i will dig through my microfiche collection and see if i have that. if so i will scan it On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > Does anyone have the documentation to go with the DEC-08-EUFB-PB > TC01-TU55 DECTAPE FORMATTER? > > -- > Michael Thompson > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 13 15:57:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 16:57:19 -0400 Subject: FW: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FB0202F.9070607@neurotica.com> On 05/13/2012 04:32 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> I wonder if anyone here want to try to build tiny PDP-11 compatible computer using KM1801VM3B CPU. This chip still available in small quantities (price range is $10...$35). The system could use an microcontroller such as ATmega1284 and/or big CPLD to emulate all required peripherals. There were systems using this chip, but unfortunately most of them contains enough gold to became firstclass target for gold scrap hunters. So, it's very hard to find working system today. >> >> Here is related link: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1801_series_CPU > > ...have three of them and some VM2 too. I where interested in such a > project. Currently I'm trying to build ans SBC out of an VM2 with some > old Tesla MVB1012 Chips (AY5-1013?) and a CPLD... Are datasheets around for the K1801 chips? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 13 17:26:15 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 16:26:15 -0600 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: <4FAC9890.6030002@gorge.net> References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <4FAC9890.6030002@gorge.net> Message-ID: In article <4FAC9890.6030002 at gorge.net>, jimpdavis writes: > Did you ever archive any of the Tek 6250 / 6130 / 4132 UTek OS images? Jim, I've sent you a couple emails but haven't heard back. Can you please check your spam folder? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From peter at rittwage.com Sun May 13 17:35:47 2012 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 18:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Commodore Plus/4 Oddity In-Reply-To: References: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> from "Seth Morabito" at May 10, 12 08:24:52 pm, Message-ID: <57321.24.214.18.38.1336948547.squirrel@rittwage.com> On Fri, May 11, 2012 5:03 pm, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > > I was going through my vintage machines collection and happened to notice > something strange with a commodore plus/4 I have. > > On the right side, there was an additional RCA connector that I had never > seen before this. > > Opening it up, it appears to only have a wire jumpered from one of its > connections to pin 6 on the serial port. > > I can't imagine why someone would do this. Any ideas? > > Pictures are here. > > http://imgur.com/a/CFUPs > > Kevin > > That would create a nice easy external reset button... pin 6 of CBM IEC is the reset signal. - Pete Rittwage C64 Preservation Project http://c64preservation.com From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 13 17:54:27 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 16:54:27 -0600 Subject: Gear for sale - Goldendale Wa. In-Reply-To: <4FAADD7A.10303@gorge.net> References: <4FAADD7A.10303@gorge.net> Message-ID: In article <4FAADD7A.10303 at gorge.net>, jimpdavis writes: > Tek 6250 32016/32032 systems - Lots of parts, 2 chassis, 2 power > supplies, 20-30 boards including frame buffer and graphics engine (gold > scrap?) Don't you mean Tek 6205 here? The "Tektronix 6000 Family" of workstations is only mentioned in the 1985 catalog. In the 1986 and subsequent catalogs, it's no longer listed. In the 1985 catalog, the following models are given: Model 6110 6120 6130 6205 6210 6212 Processor 32016 32016 32016 32016 32032 2x 32032 Memory 256 KB 1 MB 1 MB 1 MB 1 MB 4 MB Storage FD 360 KB 360 KB 360 KB HD 10 MB 20 MB 40 MB 40 MB 80 MB -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mtapley at swri.edu Sun May 13 17:37:45 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 17:37:45 -0500 Subject: For shipping: dead Apple Powerbook AC adaptors and battery charger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, disposing of 3 dead Apple AC adaptors. Would love to fix them, but have higher priority repairs to make and have already ordered replacements (FastMac TruePower 65W for Powerbook G3, per a recommendation on LowEndMac; will post results if anyone is curious). I suspect these are e-waste, but in case anyone with more time or sense of history than me needs them, thought I'd make them available here first. Shipping from Texas, USA, area code 78254; I'll include the (IEC C13?) cord that goes from the wart to the wall only if you request it, since I can use those and you may want to save on shipping. 1) Powerbook Duo AC adaptor, model AA19200, Apple family number M2693. Output 24V, 1.5A, plug fits our Powerbook 3400's and presumably other powerbooks as well. Our 3400's now refuse to run or charge from it. 2) Macintosh Powerbook 45W Power Adaptor, Model Number 3037. Output 24V, 1.87 A. This one looks a lot like the power adaptors that came with the 3400's, but the connector on its cable is a much narrower barrel with no central pin. It is possible this one works. 2a) "VST Charger 500 for Apple Powerbook 5300 & 190 Series batteries; Requires Apple or VST AC or AC/DC adaptor. DC in 24V 2.0 A." Connector matches 2) above (the narrow barrel) so it would be a good idea to take these together; accepts two battery packs for PB 190/5300/3400 on top. This one emitted magic smoke simultaneous with ceasing to work, so it will definitely need parts replaced. 3) "Macintosh Powerbook 45W AC Adapter" Output 24V, 1.88A. This one has the larger connector that fits the 3400s. I tried to open it, so the label is a bit torn up. Our 3400's refuse to run or charge from this one. Please send email to me (best) or the list, or contact me at cellphone number below. I'll wait until May 20 or so before tossing these. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 13 18:36:28 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 16:36:28 -0700 Subject: Gear for sale - Goldendale Wa. In-Reply-To: <4FAADD7A.10303@gorge.net> References: <4FAADD7A.10303@gorge.net> Message-ID: At 2:11 PM -0700 5/9/12, jimpdavis wrote: >Stuff you must pick up in Goldendale Wa, . 100 Mi east from Portland >Or. in the Columbia gorge ( wild flowers are in bloom now ) Heh... The wild flowers are actually far more tempting than any of the gear. :-) Though if I was still actively collecting, I'd be interested in some of this stuff. I need space for a dark room far more than I need more gear. :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 13 21:57:13 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 20:57:13 -0600 Subject: Tek tube In-Reply-To: <4FB016AC.70505@sbcglobal.net> References: <1336574153.64635.YahooMailClassic@web184515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120510120804.GB8356@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <4FB016AC.70505@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <4FB016AC.70505 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > On 5/10/2012 5:08 AM, David Gesswein wrote: > > On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 07:35:53AM -0700, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> The 154-0624-11 was used in the Tektronix 611 display. > >> > > My manual says its a 154-0518-00. The manual is dated 1970. > > > My 1970 manual 611 mod 162C shows the 0518 and the 0624 CRT's. > The 0581 was for serial numbers B010100 to b 129999 > The 0624 for later numbers. Speaking of 611s, I've been trying to get a scanned copy of the manual online. If someone would snail mail it to me, I'll scan it to bitsavers specifications and snail mail it back to them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 13 22:03:50 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 23:03:50 -0400 Subject: Tek tube In-Reply-To: References: <1336574153.64635.YahooMailClassic@web184515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120510120804.GB8356@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <4FB016AC.70505@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4FB07616.8040503@neurotica.com> On 05/13/2012 10:57 PM, Richard wrote: > Speaking of 611s, I've been trying to get a scanned copy of the manual > online. If someone would snail mail it to me, I'll scan it to > bitsavers specifications and snail mail it back to them. Oh, I'd very much appreciate this. Please let me know when you find a copy and get it scanned. I have a 611 that was raped for parts and I want to see if it's salvageable. Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun May 13 22:26:56 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 20:26:56 -0700 Subject: Tek tube - manual copy In-Reply-To: References: <1336574153.64635.YahooMailClassic@web184515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120510120804.GB8356@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <4FB016AC.70505@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4FB07B80.40909@sbcglobal.net> On 5/13/2012 7:57 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4FB016AC.70505 at sbcglobal.net>, > Bob Rosenbloom writes: > >> On 5/10/2012 5:08 AM, David Gesswein wrote: >>> On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 07:35:53AM -0700, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >>>> The 154-0624-11 was used in the Tektronix 611 display. >>>> >>> My manual says its a 154-0518-00. The manual is dated 1970. >>> >> My 1970 manual 611 mod 162C shows the 0518 and the 0624 CRT's. >> The 0581 was for serial numbers B010100 to b 129999 >> The 0624 for later numbers. > Speaking of 611s, I've been trying to get a scanned copy of the manual > online. If someone would snail mail it to me, I'll scan it to > bitsavers specifications and snail mail it back to them. I'll send you one. Email me your address. I also have some cables from the Tek unit Will picked up that got missed that I'll send. Bob From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sun May 13 17:44:49 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 15:44:49 -0700 Subject: Tek 856x floppy images In-Reply-To: References: <4FAC961E.9080208@bitsavers.org> <4FAC9890.6030002@gorge.net> Message-ID: <4FB03961.9020102@gorge.net> Hi Richard, Sorry I missed you earlier I'll send you some pictures of what I have so you can decide if it's worth your drive. About the 6250 / 4132 OS. I've been talking to Rick Bensene down in Portland. He had a bootable UTek tape at one point, but it seems to have gone bad. I don't know if anyone else has either a drive that could be imaged, or a boot tape. Sadly, that piece of history may be gone. Jim Richard wrote: > In article<4FAC9890.6030002 at gorge.net>, > jimpdavis writes: > > >> Did you ever archive any of the Tek 6250 / 6130 / 4132 UTek OS images? >> > Jim, I've sent you a couple emails but haven't heard back. Can you > please check your spam folder? > From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sun May 13 18:05:28 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 16:05:28 -0700 Subject: Gear for sale - Goldendale Wa. In-Reply-To: References: <4FAADD7A.10303@gorge.net> Message-ID: <4FB03E38.4090104@gorge.net> Hi Richard, You are right, it;s a 6205, I remembered it was an anagram of 6502, just what I couldn't remember. I should have noticed, I have a huge pile of UTek manuals, and I think engineering schematics for some of the boards. I had a horrible time keeping the drive running. It was a Maxtor 1105 100 MB drive that had a bad habit of blowing the FETs for the spindle power. Jim Richard wrote: > In article<4FAADD7A.10303 at gorge.net>, > jimpdavis writes: > > >> Tek 6250 32016/32032 systems - Lots of parts, 2 chassis, 2 power >> supplies, 20-30 boards including frame buffer and graphics engine (gold >> scrap?) >> > Don't you mean Tek 6205 here? The "Tektronix 6000 Family" of > workstations is only mentioned in the 1985 catalog. In the 1986 > and subsequent catalogs, it's no longer listed. > > In the 1985 catalog, the following models are given: > > Model 6110 6120 6130 6205 6210 6212 > > Processor 32016 32016 32016 32016 32032 2x 32032 > Memory 256 KB 1 MB 1 MB 1 MB 1 MB 4 MB > Storage FD 360 KB 360 KB 360 KB > HD 10 MB 20 MB 40 MB 40 MB 80 MB > From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sun May 13 20:13:24 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 18:13:24 -0700 Subject: Gear for sale - Goldendale Wa. In-Reply-To: References: <4FAADD7A.10303@gorge.net> Message-ID: <4FB05C34.1050403@gorge.net> Hi Zane, Yep, that's my problem. Not enough space and the possibility of having my disabled brother-in-law move in. This economy isn't helping either ;-) Jim Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 2:11 PM -0700 5/9/12, jimpdavis wrote: >> Stuff you must pick up in Goldendale Wa, . 100 Mi east from Portland >> Or. in the Columbia gorge ( wild flowers are in bloom now ) > > Heh... The wild flowers are actually far more tempting than any of > the gear. :-) > > Though if I was still actively collecting, I'd be interested in some > of this stuff. I need space for a dark room far more than I need more > gear. :-) > > Zane > > > From lists at loomcom.com Mon May 14 02:01:34 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 00:01:34 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes Message-ID: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> Ugh. It was a fairly disappointing day on the PDP-11/35 restoration front. I've updated my restoration journal ( http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/index.html ), but in summary, my H750 power supply is one big gross mess. Take a look at the condition it was in: http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/bc05t_rust.jpg http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/h750_out.jpg http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/h744_messy.jpg http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/h744_corrosion.jpg http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/xformer_mice.jpg http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/rusted_parts.jpg All that pink stuff is fiberglass insulation. Mice got into the power supply, and made it a nest and toilet. Everything is soiled, and lots of exposed metal is corroded. I'm feeling kind of low about this. I do believe this is restorable, but the amount of time it's going to take is bumming me out. I'll have to disassemble everything, right down to the last screw, and clean anything that's cleanable, strip rust off of anything strippable, and test all the parts individually. The fan will probably need to be replaced. Plus, it's just yucky, y'know? At least I've cleaned out the mouse nests. That's a start, I guess. -Seth From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon May 14 02:27:01 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 09:27:01 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> References: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> Message-ID: Although the originality of the configuration is not original anymore and the h744 is beyond repair and a replacement cannot be found, you may consider to use a BA11-K box instead and transfer the backplanes and console sub-frame to this type of box. (This is the box which one has the power supply at the back and can support up to 4 power bricks. Ed > Ugh. It was a fairly disappointing day on the PDP-11/35 restoration front. > I've updated my restoration journal ( > http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/index.html ), but in summary, my > H750 power supply is one big gross mess. > > Take a look at the condition it was in: > > http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/bc05t_rust.jpg > http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/h750_out.jpg > http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/h744_messy.jpg > http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/h744_corrosion.jpg > http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/xformer_mice.jpg > http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/rusted_parts.jpg > > All that pink stuff is fiberglass insulation. Mice got into the power > supply, and made it a nest and toilet. Everything is soiled, and lots of > exposed metal is corroded. > > I'm feeling kind of low about this. I do believe this is restorable, but > the amount of time it's going to take is bumming me out. I'll have to > disassemble everything, right down to the last screw, and clean anything > that's cleanable, strip rust off of anything strippable, and test all the > parts individually. The fan will probably need to be replaced. > > Plus, it's just yucky, y'know? > > At least I've cleaned out the mouse nests. That's a start, I guess. > > -Seth > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 14 02:42:31 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 09:42:31 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> References: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 12:01:34AM -0700, Seth Morabito wrote: > Ugh. It was a fairly disappointing day on the PDP-11/35 restoration > front. I've updated my restoration journal ( > http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/index.html ), but in summary, > my H750 power supply is one big gross mess. I feel your pain.. my 11/750 is in a similar condition (not quite as bad). And I too have cleaned out mice droppings and dead mice(!) from old gear. Do you _want_ to repair this? Otherwise you could keep your eyes open for an 11/34 or 11/44 or spares. I _think_ they have the same PSU (otherwise I hope someone corrects me) Regards, Pontus. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 14 03:17:13 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 01:17:13 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> References: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4FB0BF89.2050303@brouhaha.com> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Otherwise you could keep your eyes open for an 11/34 or 11/44 or > spares. I _think_ they have the same PSU The 11/44 uses the H7140 power supply which was also used in the 11/24 and VAX-11/730. It is quite different than the H765 power supply used in the 11/34, 11/35, and 10.5-inch-tall 11/05 and 11/10. From emu at e-bbes.com Mon May 14 04:33:24 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 11:33:24 +0200 Subject: FW: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: <4FB0202F.9070607@neurotica.com> References: <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FB0202F.9070607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120514113324.nezygko1s0kow4cc@webmail.opentransfer.com> > On 05/13/2012 04:32 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> I wonder if anyone here want to try to build tiny PDP-11 >> compatible computer using KM1801VM3B CPU. Actually, why the KM1801 CPU? Why not the original J11? Just a fan of the white ceramic chip ;-) Cheers From holm at freibergnet.de Mon May 14 06:24:59 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 13:24:59 +0200 Subject: FW: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: <20120514113324.nezygko1s0kow4cc@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FB0202F.9070607@neurotica.com> <20120514113324.nezygko1s0kow4cc@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <20120514112459.GA84325@beast.freibergnet.de> emu at e-bbes.com wrote: > >On 05/13/2012 04:32 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >>I wonder if anyone here want to try to build tiny PDP-11 > >>compatible computer using KM1801VM3B CPU. > > Actually, why the KM1801 CPU? Why not the original J11? > Just a fan of the white ceramic chip ;-) > > Cheers ...since they are cheap and avilable? Ebay:400182910730 Even this one is interesting: Ebay:160503454226 Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From bigral at hotmail.com Mon May 14 03:40:44 2012 From: bigral at hotmail.com (Andriy Romanenko) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 11:40:44 +0300 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: <4FB0202F.9070607@neurotica.com> References: , , <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de>, <4FB0202F.9070607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Are datasheets around for the K1801 chips? yes, I think all required documentation available. Also, available schematics for the old systems that could be used as reference to create new design with modern glue logic ICs. thanks, Andrey From tpresence at hotmail.com Mon May 14 04:07:07 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 03:07:07 -0600 Subject: Commodore Plus/4 Oddity In-Reply-To: <57321.24.214.18.38.1336948547.squirrel@rittwage.com> References: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> from "Seth Morabito" at,May 10, 12 08:24:52 pm, , , <57321.24.214.18.38.1336948547.squirrel@rittwage.com> Message-ID: Pete, We thought about that, but the plus/4 has an external reset button, in fact, it was about an inch south of this connection. Now, perhaps a reset induced by another device would make sense, but I can't figure out which device it could be, or why. Kevin > Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 18:35:47 -0400 > Subject: Re: Commodore Plus/4 Oddity > From: peter at rittwage.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > CC: cctech at classiccmp.org > > On Fri, May 11, 2012 5:03 pm, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > > > > I was going through my vintage machines collection and happened to notice > > something strange with a commodore plus/4 I have. > > > > On the right side, there was an additional RCA connector that I had never > > seen before this. > > > > Opening it up, it appears to only have a wire jumpered from one of its > > connections to pin 6 on the serial port. > > > > I can't imagine why someone would do this. Any ideas? > > > > Pictures are here. > > > > http://imgur.com/a/CFUPs > > > > Kevin > > > > > > That would create a nice easy external reset button... pin 6 of CBM IEC is > the reset signal. > > - > Pete Rittwage > C64 Preservation Project > http://c64preservation.com > > > From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Mon May 14 04:09:50 2012 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 11:09:50 +0200 Subject: FW: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip References: <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FB0202F.9070607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <07E4B1ECBEAB4F93AC6CA7A207547776@nierveze131f01> hello Dave(it reminds me a film!!), well ...those processors were used in several computers :the uknc,bk,and dvk serie,full schematics exists on sites devoted to them,data sheets also. for a start see here: http://www.radio-astronomie.com/ordinosaurus.htm best regards Alain Nierveze www.radio-astronomie.com nierveze at radio-astronomie.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 10:57 PM Subject: Re: FW: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip > On 05/13/2012 04:32 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>> I wonder if anyone here want to try to build tiny PDP-11 compatible >>> computer using KM1801VM3B CPU. This chip still available in small >>> quantities (price range is $10...$35). The system could use an >>> microcontroller such as ATmega1284 and/or big CPLD to emulate all >>> required peripherals. There were systems using this chip, but >>> unfortunately most of them contains enough gold to became firstclass >>> target for gold scrap hunters. So, it's very hard to find working system >>> today. >>> >>> Here is related link: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1801_series_CPU >> >> ...have three of them and some VM2 too. I where interested in such a >> project. Currently I'm trying to build ans SBC out of an VM2 with some >> old Tesla MVB1012 Chips (AY5-1013?) and a CPLD... > > Are datasheets around for the K1801 chips? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Mon May 14 04:18:45 2012 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 11:18:45 +0200 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip References: Message-ID: <0D095A6D240A427DBBD94731F869AA2D@nierveze131f01> hello Andrey,yes I think of it ,but I do not have enought time. I have several bk0010,and Uknc in working condition,I have processors and also the periferal circuits (kR1801VP1128 the fdc ,and ,55,and 65 the dl11 compatible circuits,with the specific xtals ). I have designed models with eagle to design pcb,I think the use of a simple console program like the one of 11/34,its listing is on the net the .hex also ,it can be burnt easily into two eproms. You can have an idea (in french) of my machines here: http://www.radio-astronomie.com/ordinosaurus.htm I have lots of files about this,I can email them if is useful. best regards Alain Nierveze www.radio-astronomie.com nierveze at radio-astronomie.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andriy Romanenko" To: Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:08 PM Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip Hello All, I wonder if anyone here want to try create tiny PDP-11 compatible computer using KM1801VM1B CPU. This chip still available in small quantities. The system could use an microcontroller such as ATmega1284 and/or big CPLD to emulate all required peripherals. There were many systems using this chip, but unfortunately most of them contains enough gold to became firstclass target for gold scrap hunters. Here is related link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1801_series_CPU Thanks, Andrey From sander.reiche at gmail.com Mon May 14 06:51:58 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 13:51:58 +0200 Subject: FW: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: <20120514112459.GA84325@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FB0202F.9070607@neurotica.com> <20120514113324.nezygko1s0kow4cc@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20120514112459.GA84325@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > emu at e-bbes.com wrote: > >> >On 05/13/2012 04:32 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> >>I wonder if anyone here want to try to build tiny PDP-11 >> >>compatible computer using KM1801VM3B CPU. >> >> Actually, why the KM1801 CPU? Why not the original J11? >> Just a fan of the white ceramic chip ;-) >> >> Cheers > > ...since they are cheap and avilable? > > Ebay:400182910730 > > Even this one is interesting: > > Ebay:160503454226 > > Regards, > > Holm > > -- > ? ? ?Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > ? ? Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > ?www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > I already saw that for some time now, so I'll hop into this project when it takes off ;) re, Sander -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon May 14 06:59:39 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 13:59:39 +0200 Subject: Commodore Plus/4 Oddity In-Reply-To: References: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> <57321.24.214.18.38.1336948547.squirrel@rittwage.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > > Pete, > > We thought about that, but the plus/4 has an external reset button, ?in fact, it was about an inch south of this connection. ?Now, perhaps a reset induced by another device would make sense, but I can't figure out which device it could be, or why. > > Kevin Perhaps someone mistook the serial port for the AV port and wanted to add a composite out jack? -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 14 07:05:08 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 14:05:08 +0200 Subject: Commodore Plus/4 Oddity In-Reply-To: References: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> <57321.24.214.18.38.1336948547.squirrel@rittwage.com> Message-ID: <20120514120508.GA31256@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 03:07:07AM -0600, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > > Pete, > > We thought about that, but the plus/4 has an external reset button, in > fact, it was about an inch south of this connection. Now, perhaps a > reset induced by another device would make sense, but I can't figure > out which device it could be, or why. Some sort of watchdog? Hard to say without knowing what the computer was used for. /Pontus. From peter at rittwage.com Mon May 14 07:14:07 2012 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 08:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Commodore Plus/4 Oddity In-Reply-To: References: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> from "Seth Morabito" at,May 10, 12 08:24:52 pm, , , <57321.24.214.18.38.1336948547.squirrel@rittwage.com> Message-ID: <52373.10.2.0.126.1336997647.squirrel@rittwage.com> At least on the later C64, the IEC reset line is diode protected so that this pin would only reset external devices (disk drives and printers) and not the computer itself. I don't know if they Plus/4 is like this, but it's likely. -Pete On Mon, May 14, 2012 5:07 am, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > > Pete, > > We thought about that, but the plus/4 has an external reset button, in > fact, it was about an inch south of this connection. Now, perhaps a reset > induced by another device would make sense, but I can't figure out which > device it could be, or why. > > Kevin > >> Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 18:35:47 -0400 >> Subject: Re: Commodore Plus/4 Oddity >> From: peter at rittwage.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> CC: cctech at classiccmp.org >> >> On Fri, May 11, 2012 5:03 pm, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >> > >> > I was going through my vintage machines collection and happened to >> notice >> > something strange with a commodore plus/4 I have. >> > >> > On the right side, there was an additional RCA connector that I had >> never >> > seen before this. >> > >> > Opening it up, it appears to only have a wire jumpered from one of its >> > connections to pin 6 on the serial port. >> > >> > I can't imagine why someone would do this. Any ideas? >> > >> > Pictures are here. >> > >> > http://imgur.com/a/CFUPs >> > >> > Kevin >> > >> > >> >> That would create a nice easy external reset button... pin 6 of CBM IEC >> is >> the reset signal. >> >> - >> Pete Rittwage >> C64 Preservation Project >> http://c64preservation.com >> >> >> > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon May 14 07:14:01 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 09:14:01 -0300 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip References: <0D095A6D240A427DBBD94731F869AA2D@nierveze131f01> Message-ID: <203001cd31cb$2c2f4570$6500a8c0@tababook> Hey Alain, the gray computer on these photos is a MSX computer??? Which model is it? Have better photos of it? ;oD Maybe you spotted a MSX computer I don't know :oD Greetings from Brazil! --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "nierveze" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 6:18 AM Subject: Re: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip > hello Andrey,yes I think of it ,but I do not have enought time. > I have several bk0010,and Uknc in working condition,I have processors and > also the periferal circuits (kR1801VP1128 the fdc ,and ,55,and 65 the dl11 > compatible circuits,with the specific xtals ). > I have designed models with eagle to design pcb,I think the use of a > simple console program like the one of 11/34,its listing is on the net the > .hex also ,it can be burnt easily into two eproms. > You can have an idea (in french) of my machines here: > http://www.radio-astronomie.com/ordinosaurus.htm > I have lots of files about this,I can email them if is useful. > best regards > > Alain Nierveze > www.radio-astronomie.com > nierveze at radio-astronomie.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andriy Romanenko" > To: > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2012 11:08 PM > Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip > > > > Hello All, > > I wonder if anyone here want to try create tiny PDP-11 compatible computer > using KM1801VM1B CPU. This chip still available in small quantities. The > system could use an microcontroller such as ATmega1284 and/or big CPLD to > emulate all required peripherals. There were many systems using this chip, > but unfortunately most of them contains enough gold to became firstclass > target for gold scrap hunters. > > Here is related link: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1801_series_CPU > > > Thanks, > > Andrey > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon May 14 06:29:34 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 07:29:34 -0400 Subject: FW: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: <20120514112459.GA84325@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FB0202F.9070607@neurotica.com> <20120514113324.nezygko1s0kow4cc@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20120514112459.GA84325@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FB0EC9E.9020506@verizon.net> Holm Tiffe wrote: > emu at e-bbes.com wrote: > > >>> On 05/13/2012 04:32 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>> >>>> I wonder if anyone here want to try to build tiny PDP-11 >>>> compatible computer using KM1801VM3B CPU. >>>> >> Actually, why the KM1801 CPU? Why not the original J11? >> Just a fan of the white ceramic chip ;-) >> >> Cheers >> > > ...since they are cheap and avilable? > > Ebay:400182910730 > > Even this one is interesting: > > Ebay:160503454226 > > Regards, > > Holm > > Why not T11, they are easily found (rqdx, and other controllers) and easy to use. Allison From barryc at rjlsystems.com Mon May 14 07:58:12 2012 From: barryc at rjlsystems.com (Barry Callahan) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 08:58:12 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB10164.9050300@rjlsystems.com> Look on the bright side - there's no plywood or MDF. I once picked up an arcade cabinet from a guy without realizing that a mischief of mice had made it their home while it was in long-term storage. As gross as I'm sure that power supply was when you first opened it up.... You may think you can clean years of mouse urine out of MDF.... and I'm willing to grant the possibility that it may actually be theoretically possible. but I eventually had to give up and put the cabinet at the curb. ------------------------------ Message: 28 Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 00:01:34 -0700 From: Seth Morabito To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes Message-ID:<9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99 at loomcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ugh. It was a fairly disappointing day on the PDP-11/35 restoration front. I've updated my restoration journal (http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/index.html ), but in summary, my H750 power supply is one big gross mess. Take a look at the condition it was in: http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/bc05t_rust.jpg http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/h750_out.jpg http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/h744_messy.jpg http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/h744_corrosion.jpg http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/xformer_mice.jpg http://www.loomcom.com/projects/pdp11-35/rusted_parts.jpg All that pink stuff is fiberglass insulation. Mice got into the power supply, and made it a nest and toilet. Everything is soiled, and lots of exposed metal is corroded. I'm feeling kind of low about this. I do believe this is restorable, but the amount of time it's going to take is bumming me out. I'll have to disassemble everything, right down to the last screw, and clean anything that's cleanable, strip rust off of anything strippable, and test all the parts individually. The fan will probably need to be replaced. Plus, it's just yucky, y'know? At least I've cleaned out the mouse nests. That's a start, I guess. -Seth -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From auringer at tds.net Mon May 14 08:56:11 2012 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 08:56:11 -0500 Subject: VCF East question Message-ID: Hi All, I was wondering about the attendance at the recent VCF. Does anyone have some idea how many people showed up that weren't already active in classic computing? Do you think that we pulled any new people into the hobby? -Jon From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon May 14 09:29:28 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 10:29:28 -0400 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 14, 2012, at 9:56 AM, auringer tds.net wrote: > Hi All, > > I was wondering about the attendance at the recent VCF. Does anyone > have some idea how many people showed up that weren't already active > in classic computing? Do you think that we pulled any new people into > the hobby? I don't know, but I saw a good number of kids there! That was very encouraging. - Dave From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon May 14 09:40:00 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 16:40:00 +0200 Subject: H720F psu Message-ID: <08ab58100ca38f147d3d4f12938a97a5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I found an H720F power supply. Anybody knows where it is used for? I't a self containing unit, it's not using the bricks and it does not ring a bell for me. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Mon May 14 10:03:38 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 11:03:38 -0400 Subject: S-100 IDE V2 board PCBs Message-ID: <000601cd31e2$cb232360$61696a20$@YAHOO.COM> Hi I reordered the S-100 IDE V2 board PCBs due to numerous requests. There are some extras available so if you would like one or more PCBs please let me know. The S-100 IDE V2 board PCBs are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. These PCBs are probably our most popular board and are going quickly. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM including your shipping address. Links for more information below http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/IDE%20Board/My%20IDE%20Card.htm http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20IDE Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From sander.reiche at gmail.com Mon May 14 10:11:20 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 17:11:20 +0200 Subject: H720F psu In-Reply-To: <08ab58100ca38f147d3d4f12938a97a5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <08ab58100ca38f147d3d4f12938a97a5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 4:40 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > I found an H720F power supply. Anybody knows where it is used for? > I't a self containing unit, it's not using the bricks and it does > not ring a bell for me. > > Ed > If I'm reading correctly, it seems to be the PSU for a 11/15 and/or 11/20 according to 1120_SystemManual.pdf. re, Sander -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 14 10:23:42 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 10:23:42 -0500 Subject: DigiDesign DSP cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 5/13/12, David wrote: >I recently acquired a PowerMac 9600/233 with a bunch of DigiDesign >DSP Farm cards in it. I have no intention of using this machine >for Pro Tools, but I can think of a few fun things to do with some >PCI cards full of DSP56k chips. Oh my! http://www.distributed.net/Main_Page As far as I know, there is no DSP56k client, but there are CUDA and STREAM clients so in principle it should be possible. I hope to one day have time and expertise to update the NeXT client to use the NeXT DSP56k, just because it's about the last practical compute effort my NeXT can contribute to and the DSP56k would probably about double its keyrate. Your PowerMac would be way more powerful. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From bigral at hotmail.com Mon May 14 08:55:29 2012 From: bigral at hotmail.com (Andriy Romanenko) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 16:55:29 +0300 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: <4FB0EC9E.9020506@verizon.net> References: , , <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FB0202F.9070607@neurotica.com>, <20120514113324.nezygko1s0kow4cc@webmail.opentransfer.com>, <20120514112459.GA84325@beast.freibergnet.de>, <4FB0EC9E.9020506@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Why not T11, they are easily found (rqdx, and other controllers) > and easy to use. I assume T11 also provide Q-BUS as chip interface, so probably two different "CPU+bootstrap ROM" cards could be designed and used with same motherboard that would provide all peripherals. thanks, Andrey From bigral at hotmail.com Mon May 14 09:05:59 2012 From: bigral at hotmail.com (Andriy Romanenko) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 17:05:59 +0300 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> References: , , <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: Hello, > ...have three of them and some VM2 too. I where interested in such a > project. Currently I'm trying to build ans SBC out of an VM2 with some > old Tesla MVB1012 Chips (AY5-1013?) and a CPLD... could you share some schematics/soft/vhdl you have done for this project? From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon May 14 10:18:47 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 11:18:47 -0400 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: References: , , <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FB0202F.9070607@neurotica.com>, <20120514113324.nezygko1s0kow4cc@webmail.opentransfer.com>, <20120514112459.GA84325@beast.freibergnet.de>, <4FB0EC9E.9020506@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4FB12257.1090100@verizon.net> Andriy Romanenko wrote: > >> Why not T11, they are easily found (rqdx, and other controllers) >> and easy to use. >> > > I assume T11 also provide Q-BUS as chip interface, so probably two different "CPU+bootstrap ROM" cards could be designed and used with same motherboard that would provide all peripherals. > > No the signals it provices are a subset, there would be buffering and a few decodes needed to be bus. Qbus is a larger bus than the micros from DEC directly put out. The T11 was more like 8085, 8086 and Z80 as the bus is configureable for 8 or 16bit width and static address or muxed for DRAM (with refresh) and the microcycle could be configured for system application from a minimal to maximum. The KXT-11 cards would be an example of a complete(minimal) T11 system on a Qbus card with full qbus expansion (Q16) for memory and peripherals. Allison > thanks, > > Andrey > > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon May 14 11:24:12 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 12:24:12 -0400 Subject: DigiDesign DSP cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5E05C4B5-5D61-4714-A7E9-BBF1F14A02ED@gmail.com> On May 14, 2012, at 11:23 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 12:00 -0500 5/13/12, David wrote: >> I recently acquired a PowerMac 9600/233 with a bunch of DigiDesign >> DSP Farm cards in it. I have no intention of using this machine >> for Pro Tools, but I can think of a few fun things to do with some >> PCI cards full of DSP56k chips. > > Oh my! > > http://www.distributed.net/Main_Page > > As far as I know, there is no DSP56k client, but there are CUDA and STREAM clients so in principle it should be possible. I hope to one day have time and expertise to update the NeXT client to use the NeXT DSP56k, just because it's about the last practical compute effort my NeXT can contribute to and the DSP56k would probably about double its keyrate. Your PowerMac would be way more powerful. That's pretty cool! I still don't know the hardware mapping of the cards, though. That's what I'm looking for. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 14 11:26:34 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 09:26:34 -0700 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: References: , <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de>, Message-ID: <4FB0CFCA.31753.6A7C41@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 May 2012 at 17:05, Andriy Romanenko wrote: > > ...have three of them and some VM2 too. I where interested in such a > > project. Currently I'm trying to build ans SBC out of an VM2 with > > some old Tesla MVB1012 Chips (AY5-1013?) and a CPLD... > > could you share some schematics/soft/vhdl you have done for this > project? Since we're talking VHDL here, how does the performance of the old USSR chips differ from the performance of a modern FPGA implementation, say, the W11A version of the PDP 11/70 on opencores? Just curious, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 14 11:34:35 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 10:34:35 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB10164.9050300@rjlsystems.com> References: <4FB10164.9050300@rjlsystems.com> Message-ID: In article <4FB10164.9050300 at rjlsystems.com>, Barry Callahan writes: > You may think you can clean years of mouse urine out of MDF.... and I'm > willing to grant the possibility that it may actually be theoretically > possible. but I eventually had to give up and put the cabinet at the curb. I wonder if "nature's miracle", which is designed to eliminate the odor of cat urine, would have worked in this scenario. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon May 14 11:55:45 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 12:55:45 -0400 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: <4FB0CFCA.31753.6A7C41@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de>, <4FB0CFCA.31753.6A7C41@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <85DF4615-41A7-40C5-960A-A580A452D2A4@gmail.com> On May 14, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 May 2012 at 17:05, Andriy Romanenko wrote: > >>> ...have three of them and some VM2 too. I where interested in such a >>> project. Currently I'm trying to build ans SBC out of an VM2 with >>> some old Tesla MVB1012 Chips (AY5-1013?) and a CPLD... >> >> could you share some schematics/soft/vhdl you have done for this >> project? > > Since we're talking VHDL here, how does the performance of the old > USSR chips differ from the performance of a modern FPGA > implementation, say, the W11A version of the PDP 11/70 on opencores? I don't know about specific implementations, but I do know FPGAs pretty well. I'd feel pretty safe saying you should be able to get them to the 10s of MHz fairly easily, even on low-cost FPGAs, if you do your homework right. If you're trying to duplicate the internal workings of the older chips (i.e. to pass CPU-specific diagnostics), it might wind up a bit slower because you'll have to force some design trade- offs. Among other things, there are no real tristate buffers inside the FPGA, something which a lot of processors rely on for internal buses. I'm pretty sure the PDP2011 project winds up pretty close to the real chips, even on low-end FPGAs. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 14 13:00:56 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 11:00:56 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: , <4FB10164.9050300@rjlsystems.com>, Message-ID: <4FB0E5E8.29335.C0DE06@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 May 2012 at 10:34, Richard wrote: > I wonder if "nature's miracle", which is designed to eliminate the > odor of cat urine, would have worked in this scenario. In the cases I've seen, it's not just mouse pee, but mouse feces a half-inch thick over everythng. I've found that aerosol oven cleaner (e.g. EZ-Off) generally will get rid of that stuff--and leave no odor behind. But don't spray it on aluminum--it etches the finish. --Chuck From lists at loomcom.com Mon May 14 13:14:58 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 14:14:58 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> References: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20120514181458.GA11724@mail.loomcom.com> * On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 09:42:31AM +0200, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Do you _want_ to repair this? Well... I'm of two minds about it. Part of me actually thinks the challenge is fun. The other part is frustrated that it will be so much work and expense, and just wants to play with a working PDP-11/35. I did take a step toward the repair already - Someone on eBay had an H744 +5V regulator for a very reasonable price, so I bought it. Since the H744 seems to be the most disgustingly rotten part, I think it might get me a long way toward a working power supply. -Seth From useddec at gmail.com Mon May 14 13:47:14 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 13:47:14 -0500 Subject: H720F psu In-Reply-To: References: <08ab58100ca38f147d3d4f12938a97a5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I think it was mounted on the inner back door of the H960 and used for TU56's, TU10's, etc, The "E" might be 120V, and "F" European. Paul On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Sander Reiche wrote: > On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 4:40 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> >> I found an H720F power supply. Anybody knows where it is used for? >> I't a self containing unit, it's not using the bricks and it does >> not ring a bell for me. >> >> Ed >> > > If I'm reading correctly, it seems to be the PSU for a 11/15 and/or > 11/20 according to 1120_SystemManual.pdf. > > re, > > Sander > > -- > ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, > ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr > From feldman.r at comcast.net Mon May 14 13:53:31 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 18:53:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: passing of Chuck Moore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <953310796.389391.1337021611603.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >From: Dave McGuire >Subject: Re: passing of Chuck Moore > ?>?Ugh. ?I'm sorry to hear it Paul. :-( > >?? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA > > >On May 12, 2012, at 2:39 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> Sorry for your loss. Most of my health problems are more quality of >> life rather than life threatening. But I do have someone very dear to >> me that has been on a paticulal clinical trial longer than anyone in >> the US. They think she might have reached the point of toxicity and >> might give her one more treatment. We are running out of options. You >> just never know. >> >> Take Care, Paul >> >> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On 05/11/2012 11:35 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>> sometimes people have no idea they have it feel sick go see a doc and days >>>> later their dead lost a few family friends this way and nieghbors :'( >>> >>> ?Ironically, I lost a relative two days ago due to exactly this >>> problem. ?She was undergoing physical therapy due to a broken hip, and >>> had a lot of pain...they thought it was just from the hip, so no tests >>> were done. ?It wasn't just from the hip. ?Less than a week later she was >>> gone. >>> >>> ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>> New Kensington, PA > Sometimes comics can provide some real insight: http://xkcd.com/931/ Th e fiance' of Randall Munroe, the creator of XKCD, developed breast cancer and they have been going through treatment together. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 14 14:05:15 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 20:05:15 +0100 Subject: Some Markup! Message-ID: <029401cd3204$8093cbc0$81bb6340$@ntlworld.com> I had intended to bid on this item but for reasons I forget now I missed it: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130688145175 Now look!: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320906207718&ssPage Name=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123 This person also has what admittedly looks like a very nice DEC Pro 350 for ?2499: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIGITAL-DEC-Professional-PC350-D2-Computer-Vintage -Computer-/320906092437?pt=UK_Computing_DesktopPCs&hash=item4ab77e5f95 Which the person previously listed before for a mere ?1499. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIGITAL-DEC-Professional-PC350-D2-Computer-Vintage -Computer-/320897191428?pt=UK_Computing_DesktopPCs&hash=item4ab6f68e04 >From the feedback clearly a reputable seller, but I wonder what the market for these items will say about the asking price Regards Rob From useddec at gmail.com Mon May 14 14:28:52 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 14:28:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <20120514181458.GA11724@mail.loomcom.com> References: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> <20120514181458.GA11724@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: Glad you found the H744. The H744, the other regulator, 54-09807 or 54-09728, can easily be replaced, and the fan and the AC input box. That leaves you with the actual box, transformers, and a few snall bits inside to clean/paint/restore. Paul On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > * On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 09:42:31AM +0200, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> >> Do you _want_ to repair this? > > Well... I'm of two minds about it. Part of me actually thinks the > challenge is fun. The other part is frustrated that it will be so much > work and expense, and just wants to play with a working PDP-11/35. > > I did take a step toward the repair already - Someone on eBay had an > H744 +5V regulator for a very reasonable price, so I bought it. Since > the H744 seems to be the most disgustingly rotten part, I think it might > get me a long way toward a working power supply. > > -Seth > From useddec at gmail.com Mon May 14 14:36:55 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 14:36:55 -0500 Subject: passing of Chuck Moore In-Reply-To: <953310796.389391.1337021611603.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <953310796.389391.1337021611603.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: There are limited ways to deal with chronic pain. I know other people with spinal problems that resort to anger. I learned years ago that humor works best for me. My closet friends will affirm that I have a warped if not perverted sense of humor. It's much better than anger. Many Thanks, Paul On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 1:53 PM, wrote: > > >>From: Dave McGuire >>Subject: Re: passing of Chuck Moore >> > ?>?Ugh. ?I'm sorry to hear it Paul. :-( >> >>?? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >> >>-- >>Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>New Kensington, PA >> >> >>On May 12, 2012, at 2:39 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >>> Sorry for your loss. Most of my health problems are more quality of >>> life rather than life threatening. But I do have someone very dear to >>> me that has been on a paticulal clinical trial longer than anyone in >>> the US. They think she might have reached the point of toxicity and >>> might give her one more treatment. We are running out of options. You >>> just never know. >>> >>> Take Care, Paul >>> >>> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> On 05/11/2012 11:35 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>>> sometimes people have no idea they have it feel sick go see a doc and days >>>>> later their dead lost a few family friends this way and nieghbors :'( >>>> >>>> ?Ironically, I lost a relative two days ago due to exactly this >>>> problem. ?She was undergoing physical therapy due to a broken hip, and >>>> had a lot of pain...they thought it was just from the hip, so no tests >>>> were done. ?It wasn't just from the hip. ?Less than a week later she was >>>> gone. >>>> >>>> ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>>> New Kensington, PA >> > > > > Sometimes comics can provide some real insight: > > http://xkcd.com/931/ > > > Th e fiance' of Randall Munroe, the creator of XKCD, developed breast cancer and they have been going through treatment together. From holm at freibergnet.de Mon May 14 14:43:51 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 21:43:51 +0200 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: References: <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120514194351.GA38062@beast.freibergnet.de> Andriy Romanenko wrote: > > Hello, > > > ...have three of them and some VM2 too. I where interested in such a > > project. Currently I'm trying to build ans SBC out of an VM2 with some > > old Tesla MVB1012 Chips (AY5-1013?) and a CPLD... > > could you share some schematics/soft/vhdl you have done for this project? There is not much to share at current time, I don't have build anything that is workng jet. It's more at project state, reading documentation, searching for parts and decisions which one to use. Regard,s Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Mon May 14 14:48:56 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 21:48:56 +0200 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: <4FB0CFCA.31753.6A7C41@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FB0CFCA.31753.6A7C41@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120514194856.GB38062@beast.freibergnet.de> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 May 2012 at 17:05, Andriy Romanenko wrote: > > > > ...have three of them and some VM2 too. I where interested in such a > > > project. Currently I'm trying to build ans SBC out of an VM2 with > > > some old Tesla MVB1012 Chips (AY5-1013?) and a CPLD... > > > > could you share some schematics/soft/vhdl you have done for this > > project? > > Since we're talking VHDL here, how does the performance of the old > USSR chips differ from the performance of a modern FPGA > implementation, say, the W11A version of the PDP 11/70 on opencores? > > Just curious, > Chuck The old Cips are in the class up to the same as a J11 can do. The K1801VM3 is internal 32bit Datapath and a MMU, The K1801VM2 has no MMU but is clocked up to 20Mhz (internal 10Mhz) and should pretty fast for small things. If you want to build an High Performance PDP11 this surely isn't for you, bu I for example prefer to use "real Processors" not the FPGA on the devel Board of the day to play with. If I want high performace, I'm using simh. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 14 14:51:39 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 20:51:39 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB0BF89.2050303@brouhaha.com> References: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> <4FB0BF89.2050303@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <029901cd320a$fbf8f0f0$f3ead2d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: 14 May 2012 09:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11/35 power supply woes > > Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Otherwise you could keep your eyes open for an 11/34 or 11/44 or > > spares. I _think_ they have the same PSU > > The 11/44 uses the H7140 power supply which was also used in the 11/24 > and VAX-11/730. It is quite different than the H765 power supply used in > the 11/34, 11/35, and 10.5-inch-tall 11/05 and 11/10. I have a H7140 that I am *still* trying to repair after more than a year of failure and despite the valiant attempts of one person on this list to help me, and it is in much better condition than the one in the pictures. However, I am hampered by my poor knowledge of PSUs (which is gradually improving), my slowly developing desoldering skills, and my unwillingness to spend a lot of money on oscilloscopes, bench PSUs, ESR testers and goodness knows what else. I can sympathise with the OP about getting another PSU just so he can get the machine to work. In fact, if anyone in the UK has a H7140 they don't want it would be great to get my 11/24 to do something too. I still want to repair the one I have and after all the effort spent my determination is only increasing, the more it rebuffs me the more I want to beat it into submission (sometimes literally! :-) ) and make it work. Regards Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 14:56:04 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 20:56:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> from "Seth Morabito" at May 14, 12 00:01:34 am Message-ID: > All that pink stuff is fiberglass insulation. Mice got into the power > supply, and made it a nest and toilet. Everything is soiled, and lots of > exposed metal is corroded. Ouch. I am told you can catch some nasty things from the evidence of mice... > > I'm feeling kind of low about this. I do believe this is restorable, > but the amount of time it's going to take is bumming me out. I'll have > to disassemble everything, right down to the last screw, and clean That may not be a bad idea in any case... > anything that's cleanable, strip rust off of anything strippable, and > test all the parts individually. The fan will probably need to be I would strongly recommend 'meggering' the transformer after giving it a preliminary clean-up. If you've got insualtion troubles, it may not be worth doing anything more with it. [Does the term 'megger' mean anything across the Pond? Over here it's a common term (actually a trade name that's become generic) for a high-voltage insulation tester] > replaced. I don;'t know... Fans can be stripped, cleaned and rebuilt. May not be worth it, it depends on how much time you have, and how much you want to keep original. > > Plus, it's just yucky, y'know? > > At least I've cleaned out the mouse nests. That's a start, I guess. A cat is quite useful to prevent re-infestation :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 14:58:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 20:58:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> from "Pontus Pihlgren" at May 14, 12 09:42:31 am Message-ID: > Do you _want_ to repair this? Otherwise you could keep your eyes open > for an 11/34 or 11/44 or spares. I _think_ they have the same PSU > (otherwise I hope someone corrects me) Not at all, alas. It is possible to put the 11/40 backplane/CPU into the BA11-K (I think that's the number) which was used with the 11/34, but Seth's photos show a totally different supply to that one. The 11/44 PSU is totally different again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 15:02:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 21:02:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB0BF89.2050303@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 14, 12 01:17:13 am Message-ID: > The 11/44 uses the H7140 power supply which was also used in the 11/24 > and VAX-11/730. It is quite different than the H765 power supply used My 11/730 ha a totally differenet PSU to the H7140. I am not sure what it is called, but it;s a ltitle thing that sits in the right hand half of the CPU cabinet over the TU58. it might be electrically related to the H7140, but it's not the same unit. MAybe some 11/730s had the H7140, certianly not all did. > in the 11/34, 11/35, and 10.5-inch-tall 11/05 and 11/10. Indeed. The H7140 is a very complex off-line SMPSU. In fact it's 3 chopper circuits in the same boxx, all running of the smae 350V rectified mains rail The H765 is a mains-freqeuncy transformer followed by swtiching regulators (the DEC 'power bricks'). FWIW, so is the H742, the supply used with the BA11-F 21" 11/35, 11/40, 11/45 systems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 15:12:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 21:12:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: H720F psu In-Reply-To: <08ab58100ca38f147d3d4f12938a97a5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> from "E. Groenenberg" at May 14, 12 04:40:00 pm Message-ID: > > > I found an H720F power supply. Anybody knows where it is used for? > I't a self containing unit, it's not using the bricks and it does > not ring a bell for me. I have one to power my RK11-C contorller. I can't rememeber if the unit for my DX11 is the same supply, but it might well be. I think it was often used with backplanes of flip=chip cards. There's a similar-looking unit, the H734, IIRC, that probvides the votlages for the RK02/RK03 (Diablo Model 30) drives. DEC didn't use the normal Diablo PSU appareently. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 14 15:19:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 16:19:40 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB168DC.8010500@neurotica.com> On 05/14/2012 03:56 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Ouch. I am told you can catch some nasty things from the evidence of mice... Hantavirus, in particular. Not Good At All. Be very careful with mouse poop. > [Does the term 'megger' mean anything across the Pond? Over here it's a > common term (actually a trade name that's become generic) for a > high-voltage insulation tester] Yes, we have meggers over here. >> At least I've cleaned out the mouse nests. That's a start, I guess. > > A cat is quite useful to prevent re-infestation :-) And they also make for excellent hacking company. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon May 14 15:23:00 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 16:23:00 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <029901cd320a$fbf8f0f0$f3ead2d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> <4FB0BF89.2050303@brouhaha.com> <029901cd320a$fbf8f0f0$f3ead2d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On May 14, 2012, at 3:51 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have a H7140 that I am *still* trying to repair after more than a year of > failure and despite the valiant attempts of one person on this list to help > me, and it is in much better condition than the one in the pictures. > However, I am hampered by my poor knowledge of PSUs (which is gradually > improving), my slowly developing desoldering skills, and my unwillingness to > spend a lot of money on oscilloscopes, bench PSUs, ESR testers and goodness > knows what else. Well, I'll gladly tell you to spend some money on a decent scope. You will come to wonder how you ever got along without one, even if it's a 2-channel analog scope with relatively low bandwidth. They're so useful for so many things; I promise you won't regret it (as long as you don't go bargain- hunting and find one that you also have to fix). My scope is a 100 MHz analog scope with 4 channels that I got on eBay for about $200. Everything worked great in it except for a fan, which was easy enough to replace. You should be able to find plenty of good ones in OK condition for around that price, assuming the UK second-hand market is in any way similar to ours. If you only need 5v or 12v, AT power supplies (or jury-rigged ATX ones) make reasonable ones. I'm willing to bet you have at least one of those lying about. :-) My 11/23, for example, runs off an AT supply (though its rather thin wires tend to get warm, so one of these days, I'll make the upgrade to a decent enclosure). Most AT supplies also offer -5v and -12v, should you need them. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon May 14 15:28:21 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95794EB1-5AFC-491D-8F09-9814A920FD0A@gmail.com> On May 14, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I would strongly recommend 'meggering' the transformer after giving it a > preliminary clean-up. If you've got insualtion troubles, it may not be > worth doing anything more with it. > > [Does the term 'megger' mean anything across the Pond? Over here it's a > common term (actually a trade name that's become generic) for a > high-voltage insulation tester] Not a term that I've heard of. Sounds like swearing to my ears. :-) >> replaced. > > I don;'t know... Fans can be stripped, cleaned and rebuilt. May not be > worth it, it depends on how much time you have, and how much you want to > keep original. Fans are also often easily replaced by copies that are "close enough". I've no idea what's in an 11/35, though. >> At least I've cleaned out the mouse nests. That's a start, I guess. > > A cat is quite useful to prevent re-infestation :-) True, but sometimes the cure can be just as much of a problem; we have one cat who has taken to peeing on a lot more things than any vermin ever have. If it weren't for the fact that it's clearly because he's scared to death of our other cat, he'd have had a date with a burlap sack long ago. :-) - Dave [ lest anyone think I am actually advocating cruelty to animals, I am not really suggesting such a thing; we do like our cats, and I'm sure our child will prove far more destructive than any cat in time ] From lists at loomcom.com Mon May 14 15:41:35 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 16:41:35 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20120514204135.GA13870@mail.loomcom.com> * On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 08:56:04PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Ouch. I am told you can catch some nasty things from the evidence of mice... It has occured to me that I really should be wearing a respirator of some kind. Hantavirus is nothing to laugh at. > I would strongly recommend 'meggering' the transformer after giving it a > preliminary clean-up. If you've got insualtion troubles, it may not be > worth doing anything more with it. > > [Does the term 'megger' mean anything across the Pond? Over here it's a > common term (actually a trade name that's become generic) for a > high-voltage insulation tester] It's not a term I'm familiar with, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything! Google filled me in, though, and I agree it's a good idea. See, I've already learned something valuable from this! -Seth From useddec at gmail.com Mon May 14 15:41:52 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 15:41:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Seth's appears to be a BA11-D with a H765 PS. Tke BA11-K has a H765 with space for four (brick) regulators. On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Do you _want_ to repair this? Otherwise you could keep your eyes open >> for an 11/34 or 11/44 or spares. I _think_ they have the same PSU >> (otherwise I hope someone corrects me) > > Not at all, alas. > > It is possible to put the 11/40 backplane/CPU into the BA11-K (I think > that's the number) which was used with the 11/34, but Seth's photos show > a totally different supply to that one. > > The 11/44 PSU is totally different again. > > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 15:46:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 21:46:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <029901cd320a$fbf8f0f0$f3ead2d0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 14, 12 08:51:39 pm Message-ID: > I have a H7140 that I am *still* trying to repair after more than a year of > failure and despite the valiant attempts of one person on this list to help > me, and it is in much better condition than the one in the pictures. >From what you've told me, it's on;y got electrical problems... It's not full of evidnce of rodents, is it? > However, I am hampered by my poor knowledge of PSUs (which is gradually > improving), my slowly developing desoldering skills, and my unwillingness to > spend a lot of money on oscilloscopes, bench PSUs, ESR testers and goodness > knows what else. Good test gear is an investment, but I do agree it gets very expensive to have everything that would be useful, particularly if you are not sure you're goign to need it again. Diehard hardware people probably can justify a room of vey obscure instrument, people who just want ot fix the machie so they can get one with using it probably can't... It's often psosible to manage without a particular insturment, but the people who are most likely to be able to do this are those who already have a lot of experience (and thus (a) understand what they need to measure and (b) know how to do that with what they have). And by Murphy's law, those are precisely the people who are likely to have accumulated all sorts of test gear over the years. It remidns me a bit of the books that tell you how to make an accurate metalwork lathe from scrap. I don't doubt it's possible, but the authors of suche books (a) often have access to machine tools through work, friends, clubs, etc) and (b), more importantly have been using lathes all their lives and know how to handle metal. To sum up, I think f you put an experienced hardware repairman on a desert island withjust a multimeter he could do a lot. But although that's what a beginenr might be limited to as well, he doesn't have the experience to use it in unconventioal ways. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 14 16:24:07 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 17:24:07 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <95794EB1-5AFC-491D-8F09-9814A920FD0A@gmail.com> References: <95794EB1-5AFC-491D-8F09-9814A920FD0A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FB177F7.3060702@neurotica.com> On 05/14/2012 04:28 PM, David Riley wrote: >> I would strongly recommend 'meggering' the transformer after giving it a >> preliminary clean-up. If you've got insualtion troubles, it may not be >> worth doing anything more with it. >> >> [Does the term 'megger' mean anything across the Pond? Over here it's a >> common term (actually a trade name that's become generic) for a >> high-voltage insulation tester] > > Not a term that I've heard of. Sounds like swearing to my ears. :-) Ahh, youngn's. ;) Meggers are everywhere. > [ lest anyone think I am actually advocating cruelty to animals, I am > not really suggesting such a thing; we do like our cats, and I'm sure > our child will prove far more destructive than any cat in time ] I suppose such disclaimers ARE probably necessary on this list. Very sad. One of my beloved purring beasts, Kramer, destroyed quite a bit of stuff with pee when he first came to adopt me. I very nearly twisted his head off. It stopped IMMEDIATELY and PERMANENTLY, uncannily so, after The Big Snip(tm). Balls on cats are very bad things. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 14 16:33:43 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 15:33:43 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <20120514204135.GA13870@mail.loomcom.com> References: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> <20120514204135.GA13870@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: In article <20120514204135.GA13870 at mail.loomcom.com>, Seth Morabito writes: > * On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 08:56:04PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Ouch. I am told you can catch some nasty things from the evidence of mice.. . > > It has occured to me that I really should be wearing a respirator > of some kind. Hantavirus is nothing to laugh at. I don't think Hantavirus is a real risk unless your equipment was stored in the desert southwest. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 14 16:34:54 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 22:34:54 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> <4FB0BF89.2050303@brouhaha.com> <029901cd320a$fbf8f0f0$f3ead2d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <02ac01cd3219$68785460$3968fd20$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley > Sent: 14 May 2012 21:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11/35 power supply woes > > On May 14, 2012, at 3:51 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > I have a H7140 that I am *still* trying to repair after more than a > > year of failure and despite the valiant attempts of one person on this > > list to help me, and it is in much better condition than the one in the > pictures. > > However, I am hampered by my poor knowledge of PSUs (which is > > gradually improving), my slowly developing desoldering skills, and my > > unwillingness to spend a lot of money on oscilloscopes, bench PSUs, > > ESR testers and goodness knows what else. > > Well, I'll gladly tell you to spend some money on a decent scope. You will > come to wonder how you ever got along without one, even if it's a 2-channel > analog scope with relatively low bandwidth. They're so useful for so many > things; I promise you won't regret it (as long as you don't go bargain- > hunting and find one that you also have to fix). Indeed, I bought a Hameg HM605, it was working OK, although not fully calibrated. But it has now developed a fault, with the probe not connected to anything, move the y-POS off the zero line and you get a 100Hz square wave. Might need another scope to fix this one.... > > My scope is a 100 MHz analog scope with 4 channels that I got on eBay for > about $200. Everything worked great in it except for a fan, which was easy > enough to replace. You should be able to find plenty of good ones in OK > condition for around that price, assuming the UK second-hand market is in > any way similar to ours. > > If you only need 5v or 12v, AT power supplies (or jury-rigged ATX ones) make > reasonable ones. I'm willing to bet you have at least one of those lying > about. :-) My 11/23, for example, runs off an AT supply (though its rather > thin wires tend to get warm, so one of these days, I'll make the upgrade to a > decent enclosure). Most AT supplies also offer -5v and -12v, should you > need them. Yes I have a few of those lying around, but I have been advised to get a variable one with current limiting. I have already had two explosions after testing suggested the board was working again and could be put back into the PSU, so testing it under controlled conditions would be desirable. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 14 16:50:36 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 22:50:36 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope Makes Message-ID: <02b401cd321b$9de9bf60$d9bd3e20$@ntlworld.com> > > will come to wonder how you ever got along without one, even if it's a > > 2-channel analog scope with relatively low bandwidth. They're so > > useful for so many things; I promise you won't regret it (as long as > > you don't go bargain- hunting and find one that you also have to fix). > > Indeed, I bought a Hameg HM605, it was working OK, although not fully > calibrated. But it has now developed a fault, with the probe not connected to > anything, move the y-POS off the zero line and you get a 100Hz square > wave. Might need another scope to fix this one.... > > > > > My scope is a 100 MHz analog scope with 4 channels that I got on eBay > > for about $200. Everything worked great in it except for a fan, which > > was easy enough to replace. You should be able to find plenty of good > > ones in OK condition for around that price, assuming the UK > > second-hand market is in any way similar to ours. > > What makes would you suggest, beyond Tektronix and Hameg, are there any other makes that are generally good and won't cost the earth second hand? HP, Gould? Regards Rob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 14 16:54:17 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 15:54:17 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB17F09.9000100@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/14/2012 2:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > It remidns me a bit of the books that tell you how to make an accurate > metalwork lathe from scrap. I don't doubt it's possible, but the authors > of suche books (a) often have access to machine tools through work, > friends, clubs, etc) and (b), more importantly have been using lathes all > their lives and know how to handle metal. The trick is that thay can cast metal. Oddly the most critical parts - bearings and guides can still be found around often very cheap. As for item [a] if substitute computer software for machine tools, you seem to be several levels deep from the original binary code for today's machines, and that gets scary. > To sum up, I think f you put an experienced hardware repairman on a > desert island withjust a multimeter he could do a lot. But although > that's what a beginenr might be limited to as well, he doesn't have the > experience to use it in unconventioal ways. You can do a lot with a schematic,meter and a brain. Often beginers need exercise on that last item. > -tony > Ben. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon May 14 17:28:52 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 23:28:52 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope Makes In-Reply-To: <02b401cd321b$9de9bf60$d9bd3e20$@ntlworld.com> References: <02b401cd321b$9de9bf60$d9bd3e20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4FB18724.6040204@gmail.com> On 14/05/2012 22:50, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>> will come to wonder how you ever got along without one, even if it's a >>> 2-channel analog scope with relatively low bandwidth. They're so >>> useful for so many things; I promise you won't regret it (as long as >>> you don't go bargain- hunting and find one that you also have to fix). >> Indeed, I bought a Hameg HM605, it was working OK, although not fully >> calibrated. But it has now developed a fault, with the probe not connected > to >> anything, move the y-POS off the zero line and you get a 100Hz square >> wave. Might need another scope to fix this one.... >> >>> My scope is a 100 MHz analog scope with 4 channels that I got on eBay >>> for about $200. Everything worked great in it except for a fan, which >>> was easy enough to replace. You should be able to find plenty of good >>> ones in OK condition for around that price, assuming the UK >>> second-hand market is in any way similar to ours. >>> > What makes would you suggest, beyond Tektronix and Hameg, are there any > other makes that are generally good and won't cost the earth second hand? > HP, Gould? Phillips made some nice scopes which are available second hand. > Regards > > Rob > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon May 14 17:41:49 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 18:41:49 -0400 Subject: Tek tube In-Reply-To: References: <1336574153.64635.YahooMailClassic@web184515.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120510120804.GB8356@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <4FB016AC.70505@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > Speaking of 611s, I've been trying to get a scanned copy of the manual > online. If someone would snail mail it to me, I'll scan it to > bitsavers specifications and snail mail it back to them. I think I have a 611 manual. I might actually know where it is, too. -- Will From lists at loomcom.com Mon May 14 17:44:29 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 18:44:29 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Makes In-Reply-To: <02b401cd321b$9de9bf60$d9bd3e20$@ntlworld.com> References: <02b401cd321b$9de9bf60$d9bd3e20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20120514224429.GA18034@mail.loomcom.com> * On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 10:50:36PM +0100, Rob Jarratt wrote: > What makes would you suggest, beyond Tektronix and Hameg, are there any > other makes that are generally good and won't cost the earth second hand? > HP, Gould? For the price, I love my Rigol. I bought a Rigol DS1052e 50MHz scope a little over a year ago, when it became clear that they could be easily hacked into a 100MHz scope with a firmware tweak. Since then, Rigol have caught on that this was going on, and rather than drop the hammer the firmware hackers, they just lowered the price of the 100MHz version. You can get them for about $400 now, new. If I were in the market today, I'd just buy the DS1102e and skip the DS1052e hacking. It's not the best scope in the world, but I DO think it's the best non-used digital scope you can buy for $400. That said, I also have an old 60MHz analog Tek scope. I think they work well together, and I think it's useful to have both a digital storage scope a nice cheap analog scope in your toolkit. -Seth From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon May 14 17:52:57 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 17:52:57 -0500 Subject: TC01 DECtape Formatter Documentation Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: got tc08 but no tc01 On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > when i get home tonight i will dig through my microfiche collection and > see if i have that. if so i will scan it > > > On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Michael Thompson < > michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Does anyone have the documentation to go with the DEC-08-EUFB-PB >> TC01-TU55 DECTAPE FORMATTER? >> >> -- >> Michael Thompson >> > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon May 14 17:59:02 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 18:59:02 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: <4FB10164.9050300@rjlsystems.com> Message-ID: > I wonder if "nature's miracle", which is designed to eliminate the > odor of cat urine, would have worked in this scenario. Maybe, maybe not. Natures Miracle only goes so far. I had a friend with a wood floor with cat issues, and even after months of use, the wood was still stinky. -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Mon May 14 17:59:35 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 15:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: from Richard at "May 14, 12 03:33:43 pm" Message-ID: <201205142259.q4EMxZZ19044154@floodgap.com> > > It has occured to me that I really should be wearing a respirator > > of some kind. Hantavirus is nothing to laugh at. > > I don't think Hantavirus is a real risk unless your equipment was > stored in the desert southwest. Hantavirus is a *bigger* risk in the US Southwest, but SNV (the aetiologic agent) occurs anywhere the deer mouse does, which is everywhere in the US except for the Gulf coast. Besides, mouse turd isn't the only thing you're inhaling. Using at least a P95 or N95 respirator when cleaning out nasty junk is just good sense, and they don't cost much. The only people I would not recommend use one are people with preexisting structural lung disease; otherwise it's good insurance for little cost against what risk there might be. (one of at least two physicians on this list I know of) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Smile! God loves you! ------------------------------------------------------ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 14 19:23:26 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 20:23:26 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Makes In-Reply-To: <20120514224429.GA18034@mail.loomcom.com> References: <02b401cd321b$9de9bf60$d9bd3e20$@ntlworld.com> <20120514224429.GA18034@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <4FB1A1FE.2030208@neurotica.com> On 05/14/2012 06:44 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > For the price, I love my Rigol. > > I bought a Rigol DS1052e 50MHz scope a little over a year ago, when it > became clear that they could be easily hacked into a 100MHz scope with a > firmware tweak. Since then, Rigol have caught on that this was going on, > and rather than drop the hammer the firmware hackers, they just lowered > the price of the 100MHz version. You can get them for about $400 now, > new. If I were in the market today, I'd just buy the DS1102e and skip > the DS1052e hacking. > > It's not the best scope in the world, but I DO think it's the best > non-used digital scope you can buy for $400. They're quite good. In fact, HP/Agilent rebadges and sells them as their low-end line. > That said, I also have an old 60MHz analog Tek scope. I think they work > well together, and I think it's useful to have both a digital storage > scope a nice cheap analog scope in your toolkit. Most definitely. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon May 14 19:25:56 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 20:25:56 -0400 Subject: Why not J11? [or T11] - Re: FW: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: <4FB0EC9E.9020506@verizon.net> References: <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FB0202F.9070607@neurotica.com> <20120514113324.nezygko1s0kow4cc@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20120514112459.GA84325@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FB0EC9E.9020506@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4FB1A294.3010501@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/05/12 7:29 AM, Allison wrote: > Holm Tiffe wrote: >> emu at e-bbes.com wrote: >> >>>> On 05/13/2012 04:32 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>>>> I wonder if anyone here want to try to build tiny PDP-11 compatible >>>>> computer using KM1801VM3B CPU. >>> Actually, why the KM1801 CPU? Why not the original J11? >>> Just a fan of the white ceramic chip ;-) >>> >>> Cheers >> >> ...since they are cheap and avilable? >> >> Ebay:400182910730 >> >> Even this one is interesting: >> >> Ebay:160503454226 >> >> Regards, >> >> Holm >> > Why not T11, they are easily found (rqdx, and other controllers) > and easy to use. I wouldn't advocate more entropy if the controller is working. I haven't found loose T11s easier to find than J11s, though I've been keeping an eye out. For the record, I am interested in J11 SBC projects. --Toby > > Allison > > > > From evan at snarc.net Mon May 14 19:54:27 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 20:54:27 -0400 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB1A943.5010801@snarc.net> > Hi All, > > I was wondering about the attendance at the recent VCF. Does anyon have some idea how many people showed up that weren't already active > in classic computing? Do you think that we pulled any new people into the hobby? More than 200 people bought tickets. Of them, I estimate that about half 1/3 were in the hobby, 1/3 were general techies there to reminisce, and 1/3 were families. From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 14 20:06:02 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 19:06:02 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <201205142259.q4EMxZZ19044154@floodgap.com> References: <201205142259.q4EMxZZ19044154@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In article <201205142259.q4EMxZZ19044154 at floodgap.com>, Cameron Kaiser writes: > Hantavirus is a *bigger* risk in the US Southwest, but SNV (the aetiologic > agent) occurs anywhere the deer mouse does, which is everywhere in the US > except for the Gulf coast. My point is that the risk of Hantavirus is vastly overstated compared to say getting in car. > Using at least a P95 or N95 respirator when cleaning out nasty junk > is just good sense, and they don't cost much. Agreed. I just don't think hantavirus is really all that likely. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 14 20:09:43 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 18:09:43 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4FB14A67.4407.249713A@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 May 2012 at 18:59, William Donzelli wrote: > Maybe, maybe not. Natures Miracle only goes so far. I had a friend > with a wood floor with cat issues, and even after months of use, the > wood was still stinky. Cat urine also has the interesting property that it's one of the few agents that I know of that can not only corrode PCB traces to the point that they're just not there, but it seems to easily migrate under solder mask to do its dirty work. Cat urine also reacts with the tannins in woods such as oak to leave a nice dark stain. Oxalic acid is of limited use in such cases. I was reminded of this as I'd just finished laying an oak floor only to discover our cat calmly annointing the bare wood. We no longer have cats. Dogs are much easier on the furnishings. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 14 20:21:05 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 18:21:05 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: <201205142259.q4EMxZZ19044154@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FB1AF81.7000603@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > My point is that the risk of Hantavirus is vastly overstated compared > to say getting in car. For an average person doing average things, yes. For someone who is cleaning up after mice, it's a serious concern. From auringer at tds.net Mon May 14 20:21:49 2012 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 20:21:49 -0500 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <4FB1A943.5010801@snarc.net> References: <4FB1A943.5010801@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > More than 200 people bought tickets. Of them, I estimate that about half 1/3 > were in the hobby, 1/3 were general techies there to reminisce, and 1/3 were > families. Thanks Evan, It sounds like a good turnout. That's encouraging. I am interested in what kinds of exhibits appealed to the 2/3 that weren't already in the hobby. Did anything in particular turn out to be popular with the "general" crowd? Does everyone love the blinkenlights? Graphics or audio demos? -Jon From evan at snarc.net Mon May 14 20:53:38 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 21:53:38 -0400 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: References: <4FB1A943.5010801@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4FB1B722.9010707@snarc.net> >> More than 200 people bought tickets. Of them, I estimate that about half 1/3 were in the hobby, 1/3 were general techies there to reminisce, and 1/3 were families. > Thanks Evan, > > It sounds like a good turnout. That's encouraging. I am interested in what kinds of exhibits appealed to the 2/3 that weren't already in the > hobby. Did anything in particular turn out to be popular with the "general" crowd? Does everyone love the blinkenlights? Graphics or audio demos? I find that most people from the general public gravitate toward whatever they grew up using. Or if they're not techies, then they gravitate toward micros running videogames and any kind of Big Iron. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon May 14 21:16:54 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 22:16:54 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB14A67.4407.249713A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4FB14A67.4407.249713A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FB1BC96.6090007@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/05/12 9:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 May 2012 at 18:59, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Maybe, maybe not. Natures Miracle only goes so far. I had a friend >> with a wood floor with cat issues, and even after months of use, the >> wood was still stinky. > > Cat urine also has the interesting property that it's one of the few > agents that I know of that can not only corrode PCB traces to the > point that they're just not there, but it seems to easily migrate > under solder mask to do its dirty work. > > Cat urine also reacts with the tannins in woods such as oak to leave > a nice dark stain. Oxalic acid is of limited use in such cases. I > was reminded of this as I'd just finished laying an oak floor only to > discover our cat calmly annointing the bare wood. Sorry to say this, but I lol'd. --Toby > > We no longer have cats. Dogs are much easier on the furnishings. > > --Chuck > > From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon May 14 22:14:21 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 20:14:21 -0700 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <4FB1B722.9010707@snarc.net> References: <4FB1A943.5010801@snarc.net> <4FB1B722.9010707@snarc.net> Message-ID: <001601cd3248$d30cd4c0$79267e40$@comcast.net> One of the more interesting exhibits for the general public was Ben Greenfield's Handmade Computers. It was an assortment of old computer parts. There were boards from a pre-IC missile guidance system. The plug-in boards had transistors, diodes, resistors and capacitors. People could pick up the boards the and look at them. This was popular with the kids. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-17B He also had a vacuum tube storage device (William tube?) . There were several other devices from the 1970 and 1980s plus old documentation. If you open a modern electronic device you need a magnifier to see things. Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 6:54 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VCF East question >> More than 200 people bought tickets. Of them, I estimate that about half 1/3 were in the hobby, 1/3 were general techies there to reminisce, and 1/3 were families. > Thanks Evan, > > It sounds like a good turnout. That's encouraging. I am interested in > what kinds of exhibits appealed to the 2/3 that weren't already in the hobby. Did anything in particular turn out to be popular with the "general" crowd? Does everyone love the blinkenlights? Graphics or audio demos? I find that most people from the general public gravitate toward whatever they grew up using. Or if they're not techies, then they gravitate toward micros running videogames and any kind of Big Iron. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue May 15 00:03:49 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 22:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: lots of 8-inch disk mailers Message-ID: Would someone here be interested in a bunch of 8-inch floppy disk mailers? I think there's something like 20 in the box. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue May 15 00:24:17 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 00:24:17 -0500 Subject: lots of 8-inch disk mailers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ? On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 12:03 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > Would someone here be interested in a bunch of 8-inch floppy disk mailers? > I think there's something like 20 in the box. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue May 15 00:35:27 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 07:35:27 +0200 Subject: H720F psu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27fcb6a40e1fa101dae373dabfb71d4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> >> >> I found an H720F power supply. Anybody knows where it is used for? >> I't a self containing unit, it's not using the bricks and it does >> not ring a bell for me. > > I have one to power my RK11-C contorller. I can't rememeber if the unit > for my DX11 is the same supply, but it might well be. > > I think it was often used with backplanes of flip=chip cards. > > There's a similar-looking unit, the H734, IIRC, that probvides the > votlages for the RK02/RK03 (Diablo Model 30) drives. DEC didn't use the > normal Diablo PSU appareently. > > -tony > Hmm, I tought the PSU for a TU-55/6 used these small colored connecting points. This PSU has a flat plug, identical to the ones on the bricks like the H744/H745. And it's different than the one in my DX11, that one is more 'flat'. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Mon May 14 10:58:45 2012 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 17:58:45 +0200 Subject: FW: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip References: <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FB0202F.9070607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0FDFA077AA064383AD6D6392547B3E4A@nierveze131f01> hello here(among many others places) http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/ lots of docs on bk,dvk,uknc series,all pdp11,all use those processors,lots of schematics that can help in understanding how they work,of course all in russian, best regards Alain Nierveze www.radio-astronomie.com nierveze at radio-astronomie.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2012 10:57 PM Subject: Re: FW: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip > On 05/13/2012 04:32 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>> I wonder if anyone here want to try to build tiny PDP-11 compatible >>> computer using KM1801VM3B CPU. This chip still available in small >>> quantities (price range is $10...$35). The system could use an >>> microcontroller such as ATmega1284 and/or big CPLD to emulate all >>> required peripherals. There were systems using this chip, but >>> unfortunately most of them contains enough gold to became firstclass >>> target for gold scrap hunters. So, it's very hard to find working system >>> today. >>> >>> Here is related link: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1801_series_CPU >> >> ...have three of them and some VM2 too. I where interested in such a >> project. Currently I'm trying to build ans SBC out of an VM2 with some >> old Tesla MVB1012 Chips (AY5-1013?) and a CPLD... > > Are datasheets around for the K1801 chips? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From seth at loomcom.com Mon May 14 13:12:11 2012 From: seth at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 14:12:11 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> References: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20120514181211.GA11410@mail.loomcom.com> * On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 09:42:31AM +0200, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Do you _want_ to repair this? Well... I'm of two minds about it. Part of me actually thinks the challenge is fun. The other part is frustrated that it will be so much work and expense, and just wants to play with a working PDP-11/35. I did take a step toward the repair already - Someone on eBay had an H744 +5V regulator for a very reasonable price, so I bought it. Since the H744 seems to be the most disgustingly rotten part, I think it might get me a long way toward a working power supply. -Seth From bigral at hotmail.com Mon May 14 16:30:54 2012 From: bigral at hotmail.com (Andriy Romanenko) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 00:30:54 +0300 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: <4FB0CFCA.31753.6A7C41@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de>, , , <4FB0CFCA.31753.6A7C41@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Since we're talking VHDL here, how does the performance of the old > USSR chips differ from the performance of a modern FPGA > implementation, say, the W11A version of the PDP 11/70 on opencores? Basically, those chips are analogous to Ferranti's ULA, they are made of 100 000 logical gates powered by 5 volt VCC. So, if overclocked to 8...10 Mhz sytem should yeild ~2500000 reg->reg operations per second. Modern fpga cores probably may run on speed up to 20Mhz using Cyclone-IV, so expected performance up to 7 000 000 reg->reg op/sec. From pinball at telus.net Mon May 14 17:30:36 2012 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 15:30:36 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> <4FB0BF89.2050303@brouhaha.com> <029901cd320a$fbf8f0f0$f3ead2d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4FB1878C.1040501@telus.net> David Riley wrote: > On May 14, 2012, at 3:51 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > >> I have a H7140 that I am *still* trying to repair after more than a year of >> failure and despite the valiant attempts of one person on this list to help >> me, and it is in much better condition than the one in the pictures. >> However, I am hampered by my poor knowledge of PSUs (which is gradually >> improving), my slowly developing desoldering skills, and my unwillingness to >> spend a lot of money on oscilloscopes, bench PSUs, ESR testers and goodness >> knows what else. >> > > Well, I'll gladly tell you to spend some money on a decent scope. You will > come to wonder how you ever got along without one, even if it's a 2-channel > analog scope with relatively low bandwidth. They're so useful for so many > things; I promise you won't regret it (as long as you don't go bargain- > hunting and find one that you also have to fix). > > My scope is a 100 MHz analog scope with 4 channels that I got on eBay for > about $200. Everything worked great in it except for a fan, which was easy > enough to replace. You should be able to find plenty of good ones in OK > condition for around that price, assuming the UK second-hand market is in > any way similar to ours. > > If you only need 5v or 12v, AT power supplies (or jury-rigged ATX ones) > make reasonable ones. I'm willing to bet you have at least one of those > lying about. :-) My 11/23, for example, runs off an AT supply (though > its rather thin wires tend to get warm, so one of these days, I'll make > the upgrade to a decent enclosure). Most AT supplies also offer -5v and > -12v, should you need them. > > > - Dave > > > > > One advantage to using a switching supply to replace the old linears is that failure in linears can put the supply B+ through the regulator transistor and this may let the smoke out of ICs, whereas switching supplies simply shut down when they fail. Shut down is much preferred to roasted electronics! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jimpdavis at gorge.net Mon May 14 19:58:14 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 17:58:14 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Makes In-Reply-To: <4FB1A1FE.2030208@neurotica.com> References: <02b401cd321b$9de9bf60$d9bd3e20$@ntlworld.com> <20120514224429.GA18034@mail.loomcom.com> <4FB1A1FE.2030208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FB1AA26.6040200@gorge.net> I also have a DS1152e and hacked it to 100 MHz. The scope doesn't actually sample faster, it just gives you one more notch on the timebase. The scope is still sampling at 1 GHz. .I took it to work and attached it to a high performance signal generator in the lab. It looked quite nice even at 10 nS / div. The Atten ADS1102CAL is a competitor, similar specs 1 Gs/sec 100 Mhz and has a much larger screen. One shortcoming is the 40K sample, where the Rigol has a 1 M buffer An interesting feature of the Rigol is the ability to compare a stored waveform to a sampled signal and trigger when signals don't agree. Jim. Dave McGuire wrote: > On 05/14/2012 06:44 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > >> For the price, I love my Rigol. >> >> I bought a Rigol DS1052e 50MHz scope a little over a year ago, when it >> became clear that they could be easily hacked into a 100MHz scope with a >> firmware tweak. Since then, Rigol have caught on that this was going on, >> and rather than drop the hammer the firmware hackers, they just lowered >> the price of the 100MHz version. You can get them for about $400 now, >> new. If I were in the market today, I'd just buy the DS1102e and skip >> the DS1052e hacking. >> >> It's not the best scope in the world, but I DO think it's the best >> non-used digital scope you can buy for $400. >> > They're quite good. In fact, HP/Agilent rebadges and sells them as > their low-end line. > > >> That said, I also have an old 60MHz analog Tek scope. I think they work >> well together, and I think it's useful to have both a digital storage >> scope a nice cheap analog scope in your toolkit. >> > Most definitely. > > -Dave > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 15 01:41:26 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 07:41:26 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB1BC96.6090007@telegraphics.com.au> References: , , <4FB14A67.4407.249713A@cclist.sydex.com> <4FB1BC96.6090007@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4FB1FA96.9030102@gmail.com> On 15/05/2012 03:16, Toby Thain wrote: > On 14/05/12 9:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 14 May 2012 at 18:59, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>> Maybe, maybe not. Natures Miracle only goes so far. I had a friend >>> with a wood floor with cat issues, and even after months of use, the >>> wood was still stinky. >> >> Cat urine also has the interesting property that it's one of the few >> agents that I know of that can not only corrode PCB traces to the >> point that they're just not there, but it seems to easily migrate >> under solder mask to do its dirty work. >> >> Cat urine also reacts with the tannins in woods such as oak to leave >> a nice dark stain. Oxalic acid is of limited use in such cases. I >> was reminded of this as I'd just finished laying an oak floor only to >> discover our cat calmly annointing the bare wood. > > Sorry to say this, but I lol'd. > I can verify the former is true and must also point out that when you have long hair like these ladies:- http://www.flickr.com/photos/69740364 at N02/7201478674/in/photostream http://www.flickr.com/photos/69740364 at N02/7201478340/in/photostream/ It can also clog heat sinks and kill even the most modern of CPU (although it was replaced under warranty) > --Toby > >> >> We no longer have cats. Dogs are much easier on the furnishings. >> >> --Chuck >> >> > Dave Who now has a good reason NOT to upgrade from Laminate to real wood floors. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue May 15 01:45:04 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 08:45:04 +0200 Subject: lots of 8-inch disk mailers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120515064503.GC2540@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 12:24:17AM -0500, Adrian Stoness wrote: > ? Since you so eloquently ask, I think David means card board boxes that protects 8-inch floppies when you put them in the mail. Regards, Pontus. > > > On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 12:03 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > > > > Would someone here be interested in a bunch of 8-inch floppy disk mailers? > > I think there's something like 20 in the box. > > > > -- > > David Griffith > > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > A: Top-posting. > > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue May 15 02:00:13 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 00:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB1878C.1040501@telus.net> References: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> <4FB0BF89.2050303@brouhaha.com> <029901cd320a$fbf8f0f0$f3ead2d0$@ntlworld.com> <4FB1878C.1040501@telus.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2012, John Robertson wrote: > One advantage to using a switching supply to replace the old linears is that > failure in linears can put the supply B+ through the regulator transistor and > this may let the smoke out of ICs, whereas switching supplies simply shut > down when they fail. Shut down is much preferred to roasted electronics! Ah, yes. This is why one can easily find replacement switching power supplies for the Commodore 64 and friends. I've had a stock brick blow out on me, but fortunately it didn't kill the computer. Others in my cohort were not so lucky. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 15 02:11:23 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 00:11:23 -0700 Subject: VAX-11/730 power supplies (was Re: PDP-11/35 power supply woes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB2019B.8090604@brouhaha.com> On 05/14/2012 01:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > My 11/730 ha a totally differenet PSU to the H7140. I am not sure what > it is called, but it;s a ltitle thing that sits in the right hand half > of the CPU cabinet over the TU58. it might be electrically related to > the H7140, but it's not the same unit. MAybe some 11/730s had the > H7140, certianly not all did. Some 11/730 systems use the BA11-AS or -AT box, which has only minor differences from the other BA11-Ax boxes used for the 11/24 and 11/44, and uses the same H7140 power supply. The backplane is in the bottom of the box, so the modules go in from the top, and the power supply is in the rear. Some 11/730 systems (11730-Z) use the BA11-ZA box, which has the H7202 power supply. The power supply is on the right side of the box, the backplane is to the left of the power supply, and the modules go in from the left. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue May 15 02:34:57 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 00:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: lots of 8-inch disk mailers In-Reply-To: <20120515064503.GC2540@Update.UU.SE> References: <20120515064503.GC2540@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 May 2012, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 12:24:17AM -0500, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 12:03 AM, David Griffith wrote: >>> Would someone here be interested in a bunch of 8-inch floppy disk mailers? >>> I think there's something like 20 in the box. >> ? > > Since you so eloquently ask, I think David means card board boxes that > protects 8-inch floppies when you put them in the mail. They're not so much boxes, but envelopes made of stiff pasteboard. I used up the 5.25" mailers on top and discovered these 8-inch ones underneath. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 15 02:43:50 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 00:43:50 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: <9B95838A-9A34-4296-A18D-5107E43D9A99@loomcom.com> <20120514074230.GC6272@Update.UU.SE> <4FB0BF89.2050303@brouhaha.com> <029901cd320a$fbf8f0f0$f3ead2d0$@ntlworld.com> <4FB1878C.1040501@telus.net> Message-ID: <4FB20936.5060008@brouhaha.com> David Griffith wrote: > John Robertson wrote: > >> One advantage to using a switching supply to replace the old linears >> is that failure in linears can put the supply B+ through the >> regulator transistor and this may let the smoke out of ICs, whereas >> switching supplies simply shut down when they fail. Shut down is much >> preferred to roasted electronics! > > Ah, yes. This is why one can easily find replacement switching power > supplies for the Commodore 64 and friends. I've had a stock brick > blow out on me, but fortunately it didn't kill the computer. Others > in my cohort were not so lucky. > That's why good linear power supplies have an overvoltage crowbar circuit. Output voltage over a threshold will trip an SCR or the like, directly across the output, blowing the fuse. The load never sees a voltage above the crowbar threshold. In a 5V TTL system, this might be set at 6.5V, since the absolute maximum rating of most 5V TTL families is 7V. (Unfortunately some newer 5V CMOS families have abs max at less than 7V.) The MC3423 was often used for a highly integrated crowbar controller, but it appears to be discontinued. Of course, they don't put a crowbar circuit into cheap consumer crap, since they're absolutely delighted if you have to replace it at some point after the warranty has expired. They're playing the odds that the failure isn't too likely to happen during the warranty period. From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue May 15 06:53:31 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 07:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Oscilloscope Makes In-Reply-To: <4FB1A1FE.2030208@neurotica.com> References: <02b401cd321b$9de9bf60$d9bd3e20$@ntlworld.com> <20120514224429.GA18034@mail.loomcom.com> <4FB1A1FE.2030208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 05/14/2012 06:44 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >> For the price, I love my Rigol. >> >> I bought a Rigol DS1052e 50MHz scope a little over a year ago, when it >> became clear that they could be easily hacked into a 100MHz scope with a >> firmware tweak. Since then, Rigol have caught on that this was going on, >> and rather than drop the hammer the firmware hackers, they just lowered >> the price of the 100MHz version. You can get them for about $400 now, >> new. If I were in the market today, I'd just buy the DS1102e and skip >> the DS1052e hacking. >> >> It's not the best scope in the world, but I DO think it's the best >> non-used digital scope you can buy for $400. > > They're quite good. In fact, HP/Agilent rebadges and sells them as > their low-end line. > >> That said, I also have an old 60MHz analog Tek scope. I think they work >> well together, and I think it's useful to have both a digital storage >> scope a nice cheap analog scope in your toolkit. > > Most definitely. I'll third this. My bench also features a hot-rodded Rigol DS1052e and an HP 50Mhz. analog scope. -- From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 15 07:15:15 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 06:15:15 -0600 Subject: lots of 8-inch disk mailers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Adrian Stoness writes: > ? ! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From barryc at rjlsystems.com Tue May 15 08:21:14 2012 From: barryc at rjlsystems.com (Barry Callahan) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 09:21:14 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB2584A.3000107@rjlsystems.com> Re: Nature's Miracle I did end up using several enzymatic cleaners over the course of a few months. I don't recall if Nature's Miracle was one of them or not. I also used Anti-Icky-Poo ( http://www.mistermax.com/ ) which, rather than being a bottle of enzymes, is a solution that actually contains the bacteria that *make* the enzymes. After a liberal dosing of that stuff, as long as you keep the area moist and there is (non-crystalline) urine or other waste products for the little buggers to munch on, they *should* keep working. I was able to get the stink down to the point where it was no longer offensive to be in the garage (where I was storing the cabinet) but not to the point where I'd bring it into the house. and on the idea of replacing the power supply with a switcher: I was actually going to suggest that if nobody else did in last night's digest. You can probably find a switcher that's more efficient than the original linear supply and fits in the same volume as the original supply. PLUS: nothing says that once you've got the switcher installed and the PDP-11 powering on that you couldn't continue working on trying to rehab or rebuild the original supply. Once you got the linear rebuilt and working, you could swap it back in... and I'm sure you'd be able to find a different use for the switcher. Or, if nothing else, you ought to be able to resell it. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 15 09:42:42 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 07:42:42 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB2584A.3000107@rjlsystems.com> References: <4FB2584A.3000107@rjlsystems.com> Message-ID: <4FB26B62.2010601@brouhaha.com> John Robertson wrote: > One advantage to using a switching supply to replace the old linears Barry Callahan wrote: > and on the idea of replacing the power supply with a switcher: > I was actually going to suggest that if nobody else did in last > night's digest. What leads people to believe that the original PDP-11/35 power supply (H742 or H7420) or the PDP-11/44 power supply (H7140) aren't switching supplies? From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Tue May 15 11:30:29 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 16:30:29 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/93 Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi there! Sorry for the extra noise, but I don't know too many places to ask... I've Always been a fan of DEC machines, and have owned severel VAX and Alpha systems, but I've never owned a PDP. Might be fun. Anyone happen to have or know of a MicroPDP-11/93 in BA23 pedestal with the KDJ11-EB board, in fairly decent shape that they'd be willing to sell for good (but not outrageous) compensation? I've been warned that those might still be used in production, but gotta try anyway... :) Many thanks in advance!! From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Tue May 15 06:15:37 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 23:15:37 +1200 Subject: PDP 11/04 in BA11-K Chassis Message-ID: I have been given a PDP 11/04 (at least that is what the front panel says and it does have an M7263 CPU board) to look after for a few years while the owner is away working and am quite keen to try getting it operational. I have no idea when it was last run so will be going through the full capacitor reforming process/etc. I am not a DEC expert (they are not really common down here in New Zealand) so am relying on a lot of the info on the net. Everything I have read suggests that 11/04's are in a BA11-L chassis with an H777 power supply ( http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/pdp11/chassis.html). This unit is in a BA11-K chassis with an H765 supply. Is this normal or is it possible that the machine has been repackaged at some point in it's life? Regards Andrew From jaquinn at ihug.co.nz Tue May 15 06:17:18 2012 From: jaquinn at ihug.co.nz (Andrew Quinn) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 23:17:18 +1200 Subject: PDP 11/04 in BA11-K Chassis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have been given a PDP 11/04 (at least that is what the front panel says and it does have an M7263 CPU board) to look after for a few years while the owner is away working and am quite keen to try getting it operational. I have no idea when it was last run so will be going through the full capacitor reforming process/etc. I am not a DEC expert (they are not really common down here in New Zealand) so am relying on a lot of the info on the net. Everything I have read suggests that 11/04's are in a BA11-L chassis with an H777 power supply ( http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/pdp11/chassis.html). This unit is in a BA11-K chassis with an H765 supply. Is this normal or is it possible that the machine has been repackaged at some point in it's life? Regards Andrew From barryc at rjlsystems.com Tue May 15 12:06:00 2012 From: barryc at rjlsystems.com (Barry Callahan) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 13:06:00 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB28CF8.5090602@rjlsystems.com> Eric Smith wrote: > What leads people to believe that the original PDP-11/35 power supply (H742 or H7420) or the PDP-11/44 power supply (H7140) aren't switching supplies? Personally, I was assuming that the people who posted before I did knew what they were talking about when they said the power supply was linear instead of switching. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 15 12:39:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 13:39:32 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB28CF8.5090602@rjlsystems.com> References: <4FB28CF8.5090602@rjlsystems.com> Message-ID: <4FB294D4.6000202@neurotica.com> On 05/15/2012 01:06 PM, Barry Callahan wrote: >> What leads people to believe that the original PDP-11/35 power supply > (H742 or H7420) or the PDP-11/44 power supply (H7140) aren't switching > supplies? > > Personally, I was assuming that the people who posted before I did knew > what they were talking about when they said the power supply was linear > instead of switching. It's a very common mistake; I've even made it myself, after having used them (but not having had to repair one) for decades. Two big "giveaways" indicating a linear supply are the presence of a big power transformer and a 723 voltage regulator. However, the 723 also works well as a switching regulator controller, which DEC did, and front-ended it with a big power transformer. It wasn't until actually having to dig into these regulators, while repairing a PDP-11/50 in which all but one of them had died (mostly bad zener diodes), that I learned that they're switchers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 15 12:44:12 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 13:44:12 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB177F7.3060702@neurotica.com> References: <95794EB1-5AFC-491D-8F09-9814A920FD0A@gmail.com> <4FB177F7.3060702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 05/14/2012 04:28 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> I would strongly recommend 'meggering' the transformer after giving it a >>> preliminary clean-up. If you've got insualtion troubles, it may not be >>> worth doing anything more with it. >>> >>> [Does the term 'megger' mean anything across the Pond? Over here it's a >>> common term (actually a trade name that's become generic) for a >>> high-voltage insulation tester] >> >> Not a term that I've heard of. ?Sounds like swearing to my ears. :-) > > ?Ahh, youngn's. ;) ?Meggers are everywhere. I've used a megger to test HV lines powering photomultiplier tubes. Never used one with classic computer gear (yet). -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue May 15 13:01:57 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 11:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: lots of 8-inch disk mailers In-Reply-To: References: <20120515064503.GC2540@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Four people have spoken for the disk mailers, so I will split the stack four ways. Thanks. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 15 13:09:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 14:09:48 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> On 05/15/2012 12:30 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Sorry for the extra noise, but I don't know too many places to ask... > I've Always been a fan of DEC machines, and have owned severel VAX and > Alpha systems, but I've never owned a PDP. Might be fun. Anyone happen to > have or know of a MicroPDP-11/93 in BA23 pedestal with the KDJ11-EB board, > in fairly decent shape that they'd be willing to sell for good (but not outrageous) > compensation? > I've been warned that those might still be used in production, but gotta try > anyway... :) > > Many thanks in advance!! Pricing on an 11/93 is likely to be outrageous, be warned. The CPU board alone is worth a small fortune now. Unless you're willing to shell out serious coin, you might be better off setting your sights on an 11/73. Very nearly as capable, and much more affordable. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 15 13:20:11 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 14:20:11 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/04 in BA11-K Chassis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB29E5B.1030406@neurotica.com> On 05/15/2012 07:15 AM, Andrew Quinn wrote: > I have been given a PDP 11/04 (at least that is what the front panel says > and it does have an M7263 CPU board) to look after for a few years while > the owner is away working and am quite keen to try getting it operational. > I have no idea when it was last run so will be going through the full > capacitor reforming process/etc. > > I am not a DEC expert (they are not really common down here in New Zealand) > so am relying on a lot of the info on the net. Everything I have read > suggests that 11/04's are in a BA11-L chassis with an H777 power supply ( > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/pdp11/chassis.html). This > unit is in a BA11-K chassis with an H765 supply. Is this normal or is it > possible that the machine has been repackaged at some point in it's life? The PDP-11/04 (and its faster, backplane-compatible brother, the 11/34) were available in both BA11-L and BA11-K chassis. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 15 13:34:13 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 14:34:13 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On May 15, 2012, at 2:09 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 05/15/2012 12:30 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: >> Sorry for the extra noise, but I don't know too many places to ask... >> I've Always been a fan of DEC machines, and have owned severel VAX and >> Alpha systems, but I've never owned a PDP. Might be fun. Anyone happen to >> have or know of a MicroPDP-11/93 in BA23 pedestal with the KDJ11-EB board, >> in fairly decent shape that they'd be willing to sell for good (but not outrageous) >> compensation? >> I've been warned that those might still be used in production, but gotta try >> anyway... :) >> >> Many thanks in advance!! > > Pricing on an 11/93 is likely to be outrageous, be warned. The CPU > board alone is worth a small fortune now. Unless you're willing to > shell out serious coin, you might be better off setting your sights on > an 11/73. Very nearly as capable, and much more affordable. Or even an /83, which will at least give you the PMI. - Dave From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Tue May 15 13:35:38 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 18:35:38 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> > Pricing on an 11/93 is likely to be outrageous, be warned. The CPU >board alone is worth a small fortune now. Unless you're willing to >shell out serious coin, you might be better off setting your sights on >an 11/73. Very nearly as capable, and much more affordable. > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA > That's what I'd been told! What's "outrageous"? Several hundred? Several thousand? Have you seen any sell lately? I'm definitely up for some assembly from parts, so I'd be good with acquiring a BA23 pedestal and upgrading the CPU board later if I could find one. Problem is that sort of thing rarely shows up on eBay, which is why I've been asking around on a few forums... Do more than a few hobbyists have 11/93's or 11/73's, or are those fairly uncommon machines? The 11/73 is the one that's got the 15MHz CPU and accesses memory across the QBus, right? Thanks! -Ben From doc at vaxen.net Tue May 15 14:24:39 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 14:24:39 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FB2AD77.2030100@vaxen.net> On 5/15/12 1:09 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 05/15/2012 12:30 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: >> Sorry for the extra noise, but I don't know too many places to ask... >> I've Always been a fan of DEC machines, and have owned severel VAX and >> Alpha systems, but I've never owned a PDP. Might be fun. Anyone happen to >> have or know of a MicroPDP-11/93 in BA23 pedestal with the KDJ11-EB board, >> in fairly decent shape that they'd be willing to sell for good (but not outrageous) >> compensation? >> I've been warned that those might still be used in production, but gotta try >> anyway... :) >> >> Many thanks in advance!! > > Pricing on an 11/93 is likely to be outrageous, be warned. The CPU > board alone is worth a small fortune now. Unless you're willing to > shell out serious coin, you might be better off setting your sights on > an 11/73. Very nearly as capable, and much more affordable. Oh, I don't think they're all that valuable. When I asked about mine on this list, a member offered to trade me "a MUCH FASTER KA650 MicroVAX" board set for my 4MB 11/93 board and some cash. Yeah, you know who you are. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 13:35:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 19:35:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at May 14, 12 04:23:00 pm Message-ID: > > On May 14, 2012, at 3:51 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > I have a H7140 that I am *still* trying to repair after more than a year of > > failure and despite the valiant attempts of one person on this list to help > > me, and it is in much better condition than the one in the pictures. > > However, I am hampered by my poor knowledge of PSUs (which is gradually > > improving), my slowly developing desoldering skills, and my unwillingness to > > spend a lot of money on oscilloscopes, bench PSUs, ESR testers and goodness > > knows what else. > > Well, I'll gladly tell you to spend some money on a decent scope. You will I wil labsolutely agree _if you are going to use it_. If you are planning on doing hardware reparis, if you are going to want to fix PSUs, monitors, disk drives and other analogue stuff, then you need a 'scope. Equally, it would be a total waste of money for somebody who nefver pulls the covers on anything. > come to wonder how you ever got along without one, even if it's a 2-channel > analog scope with relatively low bandwidth. They're so useful for so many Don't buy more than you need (or think you might need). It's rare for callsic comptuer repairs to need more than 50MHz bandwidth in a 'scope. And rememebr than an old 50MHz 'scope is still a 50MHz 'scope. What I mean b ythat is that it is often better to buy a good second-hand instruemnt which meets the spec than a new one with better on-paper spec and more features which turns out to be unreliable, unsupported, and actualyl doesn't meet that spec (Seen 'em all...) > things; I promise you won't regret it (as long as you don't go bargain- > hunting and find one that you also have to fix). Or unless you like restorign test gear as weil as classic computers ;-) > If you only need 5v or 12v, AT power supplies (or jury-rigged ATX ones) > make reasonable ones. I'm willing to bet you have at least one of those > lying about. :-) My 11/23, for example, runs off an AT supply (though > its rather thin wires tend to get warm, so one of these days, I'll make > the upgrade to a decent enclosure). Most AT supplies also offer -5v and > -12v, should you need them. The H7140 PSU is not an easy thig to substitute. The main supply rail is +5V and 120A (or is it 125A, anyway it's large). There are also +/-15V (not 12V) rails and separate +5V, -5V, +12V and -12V suppleis for the memory In any case,the PSU is a part of the original hardware design and should be kept as such. To do otherwise is like replacign the CPU with a PC running an emulator. It's not the original machine any more. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 13:41:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 19:41:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <95794EB1-5AFC-491D-8F09-9814A920FD0A@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at May 14, 12 04:28:21 pm Message-ID: > > On May 14, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I would strongly recommend 'meggering' the transformer after giving it a > > preliminary clean-up. If you've got insualtion troubles, it may not be > > worth doing anything more with it. > > > > [Does the term 'megger' mean anything across the Pond? Over here it's a > > common term (actually a trade name that's become generic) for a > > high-voltage insulation tester] > > Not a term that I've heard of. Sounds like swearing to my ears. :-) Hmmm.. What do you call a high-votlage insulation tester? The sort of instrument you'd use to check for leaks/breakdown in hose wiring (please don't tell me you don't test such things over there) > > >> replaced. > > > > I don;'t know... Fans can be stripped, cleaned and rebuilt. May not be > > worth it, it depends on how much time you have, and how much you want to > > keep original. > > Fans are also often easily replaced by copies that are "close enough". > I've no idea what's in an 11/35, though. Most older PDP11s just used 120V AC fans run of the mains side of the power transformer. The exception, of coruse is the 11/44 (And 10.5" 11/24) which has thsoe odd 35V 70Hz things. That said, I do like to keep things as original as I can. I do repair fans. Although I dont; normally rewind mains ones, I certainly rewind 12V ones, repair the control eelctronics, replace bearings, etc. It's the principle of keeping as much of the oiginal machine as I can. > > >> At least I've cleaned out the mouse nests. That's a start, I guess. > > > > A cat is quite useful to prevent re-infestation :-) > > True, but sometimes the cure can be just as much of a problem; we have > one cat who has taken to peeing on a lot more things than any vermin A tri pto a vet to have his (this problem is normally caused by tomcats) private parts adjusted/removed will often help with this. Not to mention also helping with the problem of unwanted kittens. > ever have. If it weren't for the fact that it's clearly because he's > scared to death of our other cat, he'd have had a date with a burlap > sack long ago. :-) Err yes... I've been know n to say to muon (in totally the wrong kind of voice, a grntle one) 'If you don't stop tripping me up when I'm carrying a CRT, I am going to take you on a one way trip to the vet'. Of coruse I am not, and no vet would euthenase a healthy cat anyway... > [ lest anyone think I am actually advocating cruelty to animals, I am > not really suggesting such a thing; we do like our cats, and I'm sure Ditto. I love having them aroudn me when I am fixing things... > our child will prove far more destructive than any cat in time ] > > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 13:48:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 19:48:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <02ac01cd3219$68785460$3968fd20$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 14, 12 10:34:54 pm Message-ID: > Indeed, I bought a Hameg HM605, it was working OK, although not fully > calibrated. But it has now developed a fault, with the probe not connected > to anything, move the y-POS off the zero line and you get a 100Hz square > wave. Might need another scope to fix this one.... Sounds ike you've got ripple on one of the supply lines for the Y amplifier. Do you have the schematics (Hameg used to be good about puttign those i nthe manual). If so, find out what supplies are used for the Y amplidier nad check/replace the large electrolytics associated with them (this is s linear supply with a nice big transformer, so it's not too ahrd to fix). [AT PSUs} > > Yes I have a few of those lying around, but I have been advised to get a > variable one with current limiting. I have already had two explosions after > testing suggested the board was working again and could be put back into the > PSU, so testing it under controlled conditions would be desirable. An adjustable bench supply is also a very useful thing to have. One important feature that a lot of neew ones can't to is the ability to go right down to 0V on the output. The modern SMPUS-based ones start at 1V or so. Which is a right pain if you want to ramp the votlage up from nothing. Fiarly obviosuly the thing I use the most often is a multimeter. I think the bench PSU comes next (if you can't power sonmething, you can't test it :-)), then eitehr a 'scope or a logic analyser depending on what it is I am working on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 13:52:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 19:52:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope Makes In-Reply-To: <02b401cd321b$9de9bf60$d9bd3e20$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 14, 12 10:50:36 pm Message-ID: > What makes would you suggest, beyond Tektronix and Hameg, are there any > other makes that are generally good and won't cost the earth second hand? > HP, Gould? Alas good and cheap rarely go together... In your position I'd avoid valved 'scopes. Not that _I_ have anyhting against them, and and I happy to chat about Tekky 500 series units all day. But such an instruemtn will probably need work. Great if that' what you enjoy (and once fixed, it'll probably be good), but not if you want something to plug in and sue. I'd look at Tektronix, HP/Agilent (people moan about them, but only in comparison to Tek :-)), Gould, LeCroy (not that you'll afford one!), maybe soem of the batter Telequip (cheap Tektronix, basically), Philips, Hameg (but watch the triggering!),. maybe Solartron/Schlumberger. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 13:28:24 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 19:28:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB168DC.8010500@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 14, 12 04:19:40 pm Message-ID: > > [Does the term 'megger' mean anything across the Pond? Over here it's a > > common term (actually a trade name that's become generic) for a > > high-voltage insulation tester] > > Yes, we have meggers over here. And you call them that? I am sure you have high voltage insualtion testers, but I wasn't sure if you call them soemthing else. The term 'Megger' is of course a contraction of Megaohmmeter, a device that measures resistances of a million ohms or more. The important thign is that they apply a fiarly high voltage across the 'resistor' under test (which may well be the leakage from a transformer widing to its core) and thus will cause any marginal insulation to spark over and show a low reisstance. I beelive that the normally-quoted requirement is that insulation should stand at least twice the voltage it's goign to run at, so for UK mains test at 500V or so. I normally test at 1kV, because my instrument can do it and anything that can't stand 1kV to groudn probably shouldn't go on the mains. Origianlly a 'Megger' ahd a hand cranked generator to provide the high voltage. It ws a trade name (I forget who). Therr was a competing instrument called a 'Hum Metrohm' which used a battery-powered vibrator and step-up tranformer (the former producing the 'hum') to give the high votlage. The think I normally use now is Austrian (I forget the manufacturer) and uses a transistor oscillator and transformer (so it's a bit more modern, but still not all that new :-)). The nice thign about it is that it can be set to provide 100V, 250V, 500V, or 1000V. So I can use the first to test a little 12V motor I've just reound and the last to check the insulation on a mains transformer. For the real enthusiasts there's something caled a 'Bridge Megger' This has 2 modes of operation. One is a normal megger, the other is a wheatstone bridge usign the generator as the supply (there is a built-in 4 decade resistance box). These normally work at a couple of hundred volts (so not really suitable for checking stuff to go on the mains) and were used to detect fualts in telehpone lines and the like. Not all that useful for classic computer work (the high vbotlage prevents their use on IC-based circuitry!), it's the sort of thing you buy if you see one cheap and if, like me, you collect obscure measuring instruments. > > >> At least I've cleaned out the mouse nests. That's a start, I guess. > > > > A cat is quite useful to prevent re-infestation :-) > > And they also make for excellent hacking company. :) Quite why soemthign that insists on jumping on your workbench and scattering bits everywhere, and which is one of the best static electricity generators known should be a hacking companion is illogical, but I agree with oyu. I love Muon and Tigger... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 13:55:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 19:55:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB17F09.9000100@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at May 14, 12 03:54:17 pm Message-ID: > > > To sum up, I think f you put an experienced hardware repairman on a > > desert island withjust a multimeter he could do a lot. But although > > that's what a beginenr might be limited to as well, he doesn't have the > > experience to use it in unconventioal ways. > > You can do a lot with a schematic,meter and a brain. Often beginers > need exercise on that last item. That is precisely my point. The 'brain' is the most importat piece of test gear. And it's one that gets better with experience. An experienced hardware guy will know how to make measuremtns with the instrumetns he has, even if those wouldbn't be his first choice, to find the fault. A beginner will not know how to do that. And the problem is that very often the beginner is the one lacking i nthe right instruments. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 14:06:49 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 20:06:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB1878C.1040501@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at May 14, 12 03:30:36 pm Message-ID: > One advantage to using a switching supply to replace the old linears is > that failure in linears can put the supply B+ through the regulator > transistor and this may let the smoke out of ICs, whereas switching > supplies simply shut down when they fail. Shut down is much preferred to > roasted electronics! Be very careful... Most SMPUs can produce around twice the requried output voltage if the regualtion loop fails. An open-circuit reference device can cause this in some cases. As can other problems i nthe regulation circuitry. There are non-issolated swtiching regulators used in amny classic ocmputers, run off the output of a normal mains transformer. The DEC power bricks are examples. HP did simular things. I am not sure if you call thsoe SMPUS or not, but if the chopper transistor in one of those fails, the output will leap sky-high. And there is a well-known 2-stage SMPSU which consists of a non-isolated swtichign regualtor to produce about 150V fro mthe 350V rectified mains follwed by a free-running oscilaltor drivign the main trasformer. Regulation is applied to the first stage. If the chopper in that stage shors, the PSU outs wil lelap to over twice their normal coltages, and quite often the seconnd stage will keep on running so the outptus stay at said voltages. A crowbar circuit is a good idea for any PSU, linear or switcher (amd I am still wondering why HP didn't fit them to the 9815 anmd 9825 machines, having fitted them to the 9800 series). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 14:11:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 20:11:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: H720F psu In-Reply-To: <27fcb6a40e1fa101dae373dabfb71d4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> from "E. Groenenberg" at May 15, 12 07:35:27 am Message-ID: > points. This PSU has a flat plug, identical to the ones on the bricks > like the H744/H745. And it's different than the one in my DX11, that one I seem to remember my H720 is mounted on a 10.5" rack panel and has a barrer strip wired ot a mate-n-lock plug to git that 8 pin output socket. I think one of my DX11s has an H720F PSU, the other has some other unit, but I would have to dig them out... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 14:41:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 20:41:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 15, 12 01:44:12 pm Message-ID: > > I've used a megger to test HV lines powering photomultiplier tubes. I am suprised they;'re a high enough voltage for that, I seem to remeber using about 3.5kV to 5kV to power a PM tube, so you'd want ot megger it at at least that (HV leaks are nsty thigns that tend not to appear until you get close to the working votlage. This is, of ocurse, Murphy's Law...) > Never used one with classic computer gear (yet). Well, obviously you dont; use them anywhwere near the logic (unless you work on vlaved machines :-)). But I do chekc the isulatuion fo mains transfiormers, fans, etc with one. It's better to find the leak.breakdown that way than by having the mains ps thotuh you (or worse, the logic boards!) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 14:30:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 20:30:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/04 in BA11-K Chassis In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Quinn" at May 15, 12 11:15:37 pm Message-ID: > I am not a DEC expert (they are not really common down here in New Zealand) > so am relying on a lot of the info on the net. Everything I have read > suggests that 11/04's are in a BA11-L chassis with an H777 power supply ( > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/pdp11/chassis.html). This > unit is in a BA11-K chassis with an H765 supply. Is this normal or is it > possible that the machine has been repackaged at some point in it's life? It'sd less common, but it's not 'wrong'. THe 11/04 and 11/34 could be found either in the BA11-L or BA11-K boxes. The 11/04 was normally foudn i nthe smalelr box and the 11/34 in the larger, but that is by no means always the case. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 14:32:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 20:32:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: lots of 8-inch disk mailers In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at May 15, 12 06:15:15 am Message-ID: > Adrian Stoness writes: > > > ? > > ! Err, no. You mean : ? @ . ; surely -tonu From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 14:35:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 20:35:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB26B62.2010601@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 15, 12 07:42:42 am Message-ID: > > John Robertson wrote: > > > One advantage to using a switching supply to replace the old linears > > > Barry Callahan wrote: > > and on the idea of replacing the power supply with a switcher: > > I was actually going to suggest that if nobody else did in last > > night's digest. > > What leads people to believe that the original PDP-11/35 power supply > (H742 or H7420) or the PDP-11/44 power supply (H7140) aren't switching > supplies? Misunderstnadign the schematics? Although I think (if you want to be pedantic about it) the +15V output of the H742 (and maybe others) is a linear regualtor. All DEC power bricks that I've seen are switchers. The H7140 is certainly a switcher. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 15 15:38:42 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 13:38:42 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: At 6:35 PM +0000 5/15/12, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: >That's what I'd been told! What's "outrageous"? Several hundred? >Several thousand? Have you seen any sell >lately? >I'm definitely up for some assembly from parts, so I'd be good with >acquiring a BA23 pedestal and upgrading the CPU >board later if I could find one. Problem is that sort of thing >rarely shows up on eBay, which is why I've been asking >around on a few forums... >Do more than a few hobbyists have 11/93's or 11/73's, or are those >fairly uncommon machines? > >The 11/73 is the one that's got the 15MHz CPU and accesses memory >across the QBus, right? Save the money you'd spend on the /93 board & RAM, and get a SCSI Adapter (ideally one that will support a compatible CD-ROM drive in addition to hard drives and maybe even tape drives). You might also want to consider a BA123 rather than the BA23. Though if space is at a premium, you'll definitely want the BA23. Think about a nice DEC terminal (I like VT420's, others have their favorites). Also an LA75 is a nice small printer that uses the same ribbons as the Applewriter. Having a SCSI based VMS box can be useful in getting the PDP-11 media built. BTW, I'm still on a /73, but prices had dropped on /83 CPU's and RAM enough the last time I looked that I've seriously considered one. Also, have you looked at emulation? Both E11 and SIMH provide excellent emulation support. There are a bunch of others listed at my page on PDP-11 emulation, though it's horribly out of date. http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp11emu.html Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From useddec at gmail.com Tue May 15 16:01:29 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 16:01:29 -0500 Subject: H720F psu In-Reply-To: <27fcb6a40e1fa101dae373dabfb71d4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <27fcb6a40e1fa101dae373dabfb71d4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Sorry, I probably meant the TC08 and TC11. It was used in a number of products. The H721 was common also. Paul On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 12:35 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>> >>> I found an H720F power supply. Anybody knows where it is used for? >>> I't a self containing unit, it's not using the bricks and it does >>> not ring a bell for me. >> >> I have one to power my RK11-C contorller. I can't rememeber if the unit >> for my DX11 is the same supply, but it might well be. >> >> I think it was often used with backplanes of flip=chip cards. >> >> There's a similar-looking unit, the H734, IIRC, that probvides the >> votlages for the RK02/RK03 (Diablo Model 30) drives. DEC didn't use the >> normal Diablo PSU appareently. >> >> -tony >> > > Hmm, I tought the PSU for a TU-55/6 used these small colored connecting > points. This PSU has a flat plug, identical to the ones on the bricks > like the H744/H745. And it's different than the one in my DX11, that one > is more 'flat'. > > Ed > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 15 16:04:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 17:04:38 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB2AD77.2030100@vaxen.net> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <4FB2AD77.2030100@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4FB2C4E6.7000704@neurotica.com> On 05/15/2012 03:24 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >>> Sorry for the extra noise, but I don't know too many places to >>> ask... >>> I've Always been a fan of DEC machines, and have owned severel >>> VAX and >>> Alpha systems, but I've never owned a PDP. Might be fun. Anyone >>> happen to >>> have or know of a MicroPDP-11/93 in BA23 pedestal with the KDJ11-EB >>> board, >>> in fairly decent shape that they'd be willing to sell for good (but >>> not outrageous) >>> compensation? >>> I've been warned that those might still be used in production, >>> but gotta try >>> anyway... :) >>> >>> Many thanks in advance!! >> >> Pricing on an 11/93 is likely to be outrageous, be warned. The CPU >> board alone is worth a small fortune now. Unless you're willing to >> shell out serious coin, you might be better off setting your sights on >> an 11/73. Very nearly as capable, and much more affordable. > > Oh, I don't think they're all that valuable. When I asked about mine > on this list, a member offered to trade me "a MUCH FASTER KA650 > MicroVAX" board set for my 4MB 11/93 board and some cash. > > Yeah, you know who you are. Wow, dirtbag alert! Hopefully he's long gone by now. I'll give you TEN KA650s, and a pile of memory, in trade for it. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 15 16:05:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 17:05:38 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FB2C522.8000308@neurotica.com> On 05/15/2012 02:34 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> Sorry for the extra noise, but I don't know too many places to ask... >>> I've Always been a fan of DEC machines, and have owned severel VAX and >>> Alpha systems, but I've never owned a PDP. Might be fun. Anyone happen to >>> have or know of a MicroPDP-11/93 in BA23 pedestal with the KDJ11-EB board, >>> in fairly decent shape that they'd be willing to sell for good (but not outrageous) >>> compensation? >>> I've been warned that those might still be used in production, but gotta try >>> anyway... :) >>> >>> Many thanks in advance!! >> >> Pricing on an 11/93 is likely to be outrageous, be warned. The CPU >> board alone is worth a small fortune now. Unless you're willing to >> shell out serious coin, you might be better off setting your sights on >> an 11/73. Very nearly as capable, and much more affordable. > > Or even an /83, which will at least give you the PMI. Most (all?) KDJ11B (quad) 11/73 CPUs can do PMI. That's a bigger performance boost than 15MHz->18MHz. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 15 16:08:18 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 17:08:18 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <4FB2C5C2.3060809@neurotica.com> On 05/15/2012 02:35 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > That's what I'd been told! What's "outrageous"? Several hundred? Several thousand? Have you seen any sell > lately? Not lately, no. They're not all that common. I'd guess that, if you have your heart set on that and only that model (to which I'd ask "why?"), you should set aside $450-600 or so. > I'm definitely up for some assembly from parts, so I'd be good with acquiring a BA23 pedestal and upgrading the CPU > board later if I could find one. Problem is that sort of thing rarely shows up on eBay, which is why I've been asking > around on a few forums... > Do more than a few hobbyists have 11/93's or 11/73's, or are those fairly uncommon machines? Hardly anyone has 11/93s. I have an 11/94 (Unibus version) but it's dead. 11/73s are pretty much everywhere, though. > The 11/73 is the one that's got the 15MHz CPU and accesses memory across the QBus, right? Yes, except that quad-width 11/73 CPU boards (KDJ11B) can use PMI memory. Duals (KDJ11A) cannot. Also, earlier revs can't take an FPJ11 chip, but later ones can. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 15 16:11:25 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 14:11:25 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: <95794EB1-5AFC-491D-8F09-9814A920FD0A@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at May 14, 12 04:28:21 pm, Message-ID: <4FB2640D.10461.146829B@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 May 2012 at 19:41, Tony Duell wrote: > Hmmm.. What do you call a high-votlage insulation tester? The sort of > instrument you'd use to check for leaks/breakdown in hose wiring > (please don't tell me you don't test such things over there) That's certainly a term that I'm familiar with--"Megger". Perhaps that's only for old fogies like yours truly. Another related term is "Hipot". An adjustable high-voltage source with an insulated probe. Indispensible for testing (sometimes destructively) susceptibility to ESD, although I suspect a cat and a pair of rubber-soled shoes might work as well. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue May 15 16:14:21 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 17:14:21 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ED3CE92-7CA7-4353-880E-30BD5D2871CE@gmail.com> On May 15, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> True, but sometimes the cure can be just as much of a problem; we have >> one cat who has taken to peeing on a lot more things than any vermin > > A tri pto a vet to have his (this problem is normally caused by tomcats) > private parts adjusted/removed will often help with this. Not to mention > also helping with the problem of unwanted kittens. Oh yes, he's fixed. He's just scared of everything, including (not entirely unjustifiably) the other cat, who keeps him from getting to the litterbox until it's far too late. Alas! The next step is kitty Prozac, but we're not entirely out of options yet. - Dave From cclist at sytse.net Tue May 15 17:15:35 2012 From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 00:15:35 +0200 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: <85DF4615-41A7-40C5-960A-A580A452D2A4@gmail.com> References: <4FB0CFCA.31753.6A7C41@cclist.sydex.com> <85DF4615-41A7-40C5-960A-A580A452D2A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201205160015.35360.cclist@sytse.net> On Monday, May 14, 2012 06:55:45 PM David Riley wrote: > On May 14, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 14 May 2012 at 17:05, Andriy Romanenko wrote: > >>> ...have three of them and some VM2 too. I where interested in such a > >>> project. Currently I'm trying to build ans SBC out of an VM2 with > >>> some old Tesla MVB1012 Chips (AY5-1013?) and a CPLD... > >> > >> could you share some schematics/soft/vhdl you have done for this > >> project? > > > > Since we're talking VHDL here, how does the performance of the old > > USSR chips differ from the performance of a modern FPGA > > implementation, say, the W11A version of the PDP 11/70 on opencores? > > I don't know about specific implementations, but I do know FPGAs pretty > well. I'd feel pretty safe saying you should be able to get them to > the 10s of MHz fairly easily, even on low-cost FPGAs, if you do your > homework right. If you're trying to duplicate the internal workings > of the older chips (i.e. to pass CPU-specific diagnostics), it might > wind up a bit slower because you'll have to force some design trade- > offs. Among other things, there are no real tristate buffers inside > the FPGA, something which a lot of processors rely on for internal > buses. > > I'm pretty sure the PDP2011 project winds up pretty close to the real > chips, even on low-end FPGAs. > > > - Dave PDP2011 runs at 10Mhz cpu speed on most boards - it can be tweaked to run faster, but I haven't really tried to make it as fast as possible. Anyway, those Mhz don't compare easily to 'real' PDP Mhz - the amount of cycles per instruction are not the same. 'Real' PDP's tend to use microcode, and very clever memory interfacing including cache in some models. I'm using a state machine, and a simplistic memory interface. That difference causes very different instruction timing behavior - it depends a lot on which instructions you would use, and how much memory access would be involved. With a lot of exceptions, an instruction needs a minimum of 2 cycles, one extra if the destination is a register, two extra if the destination is a memory location, and one for each memory reference needed for src or dst modes. So, a clr r0 would need 3 cycles; a clr mode 7 would need 7 cycles. EIS instructions need some more overhead cycles, but mul comes for free (it uses the FPGA multipliers). The other EIS, particularly div however take a lot of cycles. As do all the FP11 instructions - all of those are multiple precision; setting single precision limits what is returned, not what is calculated. Anyway, I've run a lot of maindecs. For some of those, the source is available from Bitsavers, and in some cases there is a description in them that say how quickly the test should run. In all cases I found, pdp2011 is faster than the original model, but in the same league - I mean, maybe 3 to 10 times faster, but not a hundred times. Another take on the subject is the way Walter compared w11's speed to real hardware using the benchmarks of the early '90. I ran one of the benchmarks some time ago; where w11 reaches 160-252 Hanoi?s per second, pdp2011 reaches about 38 with the CPU running at 10 Mhz. In comparison, a 11/53+ does 12. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue May 15 18:43:07 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 19:43:07 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> >Benjamin Huntsman wrote: >> Pricing on an 11/93 is likely to be outrageous, be warned. The CPU >>board alone is worth a small fortune now. Unless you're willing to >>shell out serious coin, you might be better off setting your sights on >>an 11/73. Very nearly as capable, and much more affordable. >> >> -Dave >> >>-- >>Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>New Kensington, PA >> >That's what I'd been told! What's "outrageous"? Several hundred? Several thousand? Have you seen any sell >lately? >I'm definitely up for some assembly from parts, so I'd be good with acquiring a BA23 pedestal and upgrading the CPU >board later if I could find one. Problem is that sort of thing rarely shows up on eBay, which is why I've been asking >around on a few forums... >Do more than a few hobbyists have 11/93's or 11/73's, or are those fairly uncommon machines? > >The 11/73 is the one that's got the 15MHz CPU and accesses memory across the QBus, right? > What I seem to have missed is exactly WHY the 11/93 is your goal as opposed to an equally capable (as far as the software which can be run) 11/73. The 11/93 might be 33% faster, but it will probably cost at least 5 times the price. If you are using a BA23 box, then with 8 available slots, you should have sufficient slots to accommodate everything you are likely to need when at present you don't know what you want to run as software. At the very least, if you have access to PMI memory, then even if it costs a little bit more, you will get most of the extra speed and almost all quad 11/73 (M8190) boards can use the PMI memory. DEC PMI memory is either 1 MB or 2 MB. 3rd party PMI memory can be 4 MB on a single board. On a BA23 box, ONLY 2 PMI memory boards are allowed in front of the CPU of course. By the way, what software do you want to run? And why is the DEC hardware itself important? Jerome Fine From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue May 15 18:45:02 2012 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 16:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1337125502.77272.YahooMailNeo@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Yes... I know of a teen who got his first vintage computer, a mac plus It was a bit beaten and dirty, but he cleaned it up and powered it on and he has been looking for a keyboard and mouse for it. But this is just the beginning. ________________________________ From: auringer tds.net Do you think that we pulled any new people into the hobby? From doc at vaxen.net Tue May 15 18:52:49 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 18:52:49 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB2C4E6.7000704@neurotica.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <4FB2AD77.2030100@vaxen.net> <4FB2C4E6.7000704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FB2EC51.6030706@vaxen.net> On 5/15/12 4:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 05/15/2012 03:24 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >> Oh, I don't think they're all that valuable. When I asked about mine >> on this list, a member offered to trade me "a MUCH FASTER KA650 >> MicroVAX" board set for my 4MB 11/93 board and some cash. >> >> Yeah, you know who you are. > > Wow, dirtbag alert! Hopefully he's long gone by now. > > I'll give you TEN KA650s, and a pile of memory, in trade for it. ;) IIRC, you already gave me a pile of QBUS memory for free... :) That's one of the systems I said I'd never let go, but a major East Coast newspaper made me an offer I couldn't refuse a couple of years ago - enough to build a respectable 11/83 and qite a bit left over. But I have to admit that the main reason I sold it wasn't the money. Knowing my old /93 is running on a production floor is way better than having it in hand. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 15 19:00:44 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 17:00:44 -0700 Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <4FB2C522.8000308@neurotica.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, , <4FB2C522.8000308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FB28BBC.29111.1E1847E@cclist.sydex.com> Just looked up "Megger" on WikiP and discovered that it's all part of the same group as AVO. The name of the company producing the gadged was changed to "Megger Group Ltd." only in 1987. Much more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megger_Group_Limited --Chuck From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue May 15 19:10:55 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 17:10:55 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB2C5C2.3060809@neurotica.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2C5C2.3060809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FB2F08F.9070607@gmail.com> On 5/15/2012 2:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hardly anyone has 11/93s. I have an 11/94 (Unibus version) but it's > dead. 11/73s are pretty much everywhere, though. >> The 11/73 is the one that's got the 15MHz CPU and accesses memory across the QBus, right? > Yes, except that quad-width 11/73 CPU boards (KDJ11B) can use PMI > memory. Duals (KDJ11A) cannot. Also, earlier revs can't take an FPJ11 > chip, but later ones can. > > -Dave > On that note does anyone have an extra they are looking to trade, sell, or hand over the cost of shipping ? I have a microPDP 11/73 in the original pedestal BA23 with no cards at all in it. Can it even be called a 11/73 with no cards ? I guess what I have is a BA23 pedestal with a cool MicroPDP 11/73 badge on it. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue May 15 19:12:12 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 02:12:12 +0200 Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan Message-ID: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> see subject. What can i do about this ? (The fan doesn't turn when applying power.) From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Tue May 15 19:46:50 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 00:46:50 +0000 Subject: IBM P/390 Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C398E@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Anyone here interested in a PCI-based IBM P/390 board (Not E)? I've actually got two that I'm not using, and a PARCA bus-and-tag board, and think that some other hobbyists should have a chance to acquire this stuff... I'd also consider trades... Thanks! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue May 15 19:55:35 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 21:55:35 -0300 Subject: Oscilloscope Makes References: <02b401cd321b$9de9bf60$d9bd3e20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <04ae01cd32fe$c7d10a20$6500a8c0@tababook> I'd forget anything not tektronix for analog scopes. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Jarratt" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 6:50 PM Subject: Oscilloscope Makes >> > will come to wonder how you ever got along without one, even if it's a >> > 2-channel analog scope with relatively low bandwidth. They're so >> > useful for so many things; I promise you won't regret it (as long as >> > you don't go bargain- hunting and find one that you also have to fix). >> >> Indeed, I bought a Hameg HM605, it was working OK, although not fully >> calibrated. But it has now developed a fault, with the probe not >> connected > to >> anything, move the y-POS off the zero line and you get a 100Hz square >> wave. Might need another scope to fix this one.... >> >> > >> > My scope is a 100 MHz analog scope with 4 channels that I got on eBay >> > for about $200. Everything worked great in it except for a fan, which >> > was easy enough to replace. You should be able to find plenty of good >> > ones in OK condition for around that price, assuming the UK >> > second-hand market is in any way similar to ours. >> > > > What makes would you suggest, beyond Tektronix and Hameg, are there any > other makes that are generally good and won't cost the earth second hand? > HP, Gould? > > Regards > > Rob > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 15 20:33:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 21:33:22 -0400 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <1337125502.77272.YahooMailNeo@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1337125502.77272.YahooMailNeo@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FB303E2.6040309@neurotica.com> On 05/15/2012 07:45 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > Yes... I know of a teen who got his first vintage computer, a mac plus > > It was a bit beaten and dirty, but he cleaned it up and powered it on and he has been looking for a keyboard and mouse for it. > But this is just the beginning. He needs to start looking for a bigger house. Now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Tue May 15 20:42:08 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 01:42:08 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> >What I seem to have missed is exactly WHY the 11/93 is your >goal as opposed to an equally capable (as far as the software >which can be run) 11/73. The 11/93 might be 33% faster, but >it will probably cost at least 5 times the price. > >If you are using a BA23 box, then with 8 available slots, you >should have sufficient slots to accommodate everything you are >likely to need when at present you don't know what you want >to run as software. > >At the very least, if you have access to PMI memory, then >even if it costs a little bit more, you will get most of the extra >speed and almost all quad 11/73 (M8190) boards can use >the PMI memory. DEC PMI memory is either 1 MB or 2 MB. >3rd party PMI memory can be 4 MB on a single board. On >a BA23 box, ONLY 2 PMI memory boards are allowed in >front of the CPU of course. > >By the way, what software do you want to run? And why is >the DEC hardware itself important? > >Jerome Fine Hi! haha... why the 93? Because I pretty much woke up one day and thought to myself "I'd like to find a PDP", so I looked up which was the smallest/ fastest, and that's the 93. I'm new to the PDP's, so I really truly had no idea as to what the going rate is. I'm not opposed to a 73 or 83, but I'm pretty set on the BA23 pedestal as the ideal form factor, for space/weight reasons. As to what software, I figured I'd start with V7, Ultrix-11 or something like that. Hadn't really thought that far ahead though. Why the DEC hardware? What else is there? :) I've always liked DEC stuff, and don't usually consider non-DEC stuff for hobby purposes. After all, isn't most of this stuff just supposed to be for fun/curiosity's sake? Thanks! -Ben From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue May 15 21:18:02 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 19:18:02 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB2F08F.9070607@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2C5C2.3060809@neurotica.com> <4FB2F08F.9070607@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have an 11/83 in a BA23 that's functional (RD5x drives, ethernet, etc). I'd like $350 for that. I also have some "generic" 11/53s and 11/73's (they're DEC cards but in a generic case). I'd want $100/ea for those. Shipping is extra of course. TTFN - Guy On May 15, 2012, at 5:10 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 5/15/2012 2:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Hardly anyone has 11/93s. I have an 11/94 (Unibus version) but it's dead. 11/73s are pretty much everywhere, though. >>> The 11/73 is the one that's got the 15MHz CPU and accesses memory across the QBus, right? >> Yes, except that quad-width 11/73 CPU boards (KDJ11B) can use PMI >> memory. Duals (KDJ11A) cannot. Also, earlier revs can't take an FPJ11 >> chip, but later ones can. >> >> -Dave >> > > On that note does anyone have an extra they are looking to trade, sell, or hand over the cost of shipping ? I have a microPDP 11/73 in the original pedestal BA23 with no cards at all in it. Can it even be called a 11/73 with no cards ? I guess what I have is a BA23 pedestal with a cool MicroPDP 11/73 badge on it. > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 15 21:28:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 22:28:19 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB2F08F.9070607@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2C5C2.3060809@neurotica.com> <4FB2F08F.9070607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FB310C3.5090908@neurotica.com> On 05/15/2012 08:10 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 5/15/2012 2:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Hardly anyone has 11/93s. I have an 11/94 (Unibus version) but it's >> dead. 11/73s are pretty much everywhere, though. >>> The 11/73 is the one that's got the 15MHz CPU and accesses memory >>> across the QBus, right? >> Yes, except that quad-width 11/73 CPU boards (KDJ11B) can use PMI >> memory. Duals (KDJ11A) cannot. Also, earlier revs can't take an FPJ11 >> chip, but later ones can. > > On that note does anyone have an extra they are looking to trade, sell, > or hand over the cost of shipping ? I have a microPDP 11/73 in the > original pedestal BA23 with no cards at all in it. Can it even be called > a 11/73 with no cards ? I guess what I have is a BA23 pedestal with a > cool MicroPDP 11/73 badge on it. I am mostly in "acquisition mode" nowadays, but I do have lots (and lots, and lots) of DEC boards. I can probably swap you a CPU at least. Whatcha got to swap? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 15 21:36:32 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 20:36:32 -0600 Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <4FB312B0.1040609@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/15/2012 6:12 PM, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > see subject. > > What can i do about this ? (The fan doesn't turn when applying power.) Check Vff for 6.3 vac, then try draining the chip. see the 25120 application notes. > Can we get more information about fan for what device and other details please. Thank You, Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 15 21:44:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 22:44:31 -0400 Subject: IBM P/390 In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C398E@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C398E@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <4FB3148F.8070102@neurotica.com> On 05/15/2012 08:46 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Anyone here interested in a PCI-based IBM P/390 board (Not E)? I've actually got two that I'm not using, and a PARCA > bus-and-tag board, and think that some other hobbyists should have a chance to acquire this stuff... Yes, I'm interested. I have an MCA version (running) and a PCI P390/E (not running). > I'd also consider trades... In light of our other recent conversation, I think we have some things to discuss. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 15 21:46:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 19:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <20120515194015.C52025@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 16 May 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > see subject. perhaps supply more detail than a generic reference back to the subject line. > What can i do about this ? (The fan doesn't turn when applying power.) Even more detail than THAT! brush? brushless? AC? DC? Voltage? Common? Custom? current consumption? Continuity in windings? Shorts in windings? Does it turn freely when power is NOT applied? Does it run when power is applied if given a helping start? Did it stop suddenly while running? Or has the problem been builfing slowly over time? If it's in a Dell, the answers are different than if it is an irreplacebale unique one. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue May 15 21:48:42 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 22:48:42 -0400 Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <4FB3158A.7000108@atarimuseum.com> You try hooking it up to a bench top power supply just to make sure it works, are the power lines to it getting proper voltage? The basic stuff... if those aren't panning out, you may have a ceased motor, and its time to either scrap and replace it, or disassemble and rebuild it. Stefan Skoglund wrote: > see subject. > > What can i do about this ? (The fan doesn't turn when applying power.) > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 15 22:00:38 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 20:00:38 -0700 Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <4FB28BBC.29111.1E1847E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, , <4FB2C522.8000308@neurotica.com> <4FB28BBC.29111.1E1847E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 5:00 PM -0700 5/15/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Just looked up "Megger" on WikiP and discovered that it's all part of >the same group as AVO. The name of the company producing the gadged >was changed to "Megger Group Ltd." only in 1987. > >Much more here: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megger_Group_Limited > >--Chuck That WW II Megger looks frighteningly close to what I used in the Navy. Those were fun! :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue May 15 22:22:10 2012 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 20:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <4FB303E2.6040309@neurotica.com> References: <1337125502.77272.YahooMailNeo@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4FB303E2.6040309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1337138530.15263.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> He's going into the service.. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave McGuire ? He needs to start looking for a bigger house. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 15 22:29:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 23:29:23 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> On 05/15/2012 09:42 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Why the DEC hardware? What else is there? :) I've always liked DEC stuff, > and don't usually consider non-DEC stuff for hobby purposes. He's going to try to push you toward an emulator. Many people just don't seem to get that it's NOT "all about the software". My 11/70 was on exhibit at VCF-East last week. People were going "ooh, ahh" like there was no tomorrow...and it was NOT because it was running RSTS/E with Dungeon, Advent, language compilers, etc etc. (no offense intended to Jerome..) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue May 15 23:23:46 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 21:23:46 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB2F08F.9070607@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2C5C2.3060809@neurotica.com> <4FB2F08F.9070607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FB32BD2.6090906@mail.msu.edu> On 5/15/2012 5:10 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 5/15/2012 2:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Hardly anyone has 11/93s. I have an 11/94 (Unibus version) but it's >> dead. 11/73s are pretty much everywhere, though. >>> The 11/73 is the one that's got the 15MHz CPU and accesses memory >>> across the QBus, right? >> Yes, except that quad-width 11/73 CPU boards (KDJ11B) can use PMI >> memory. Duals (KDJ11A) cannot. Also, earlier revs can't take an FPJ11 >> chip, but later ones can. >> >> -Dave >> > > On that note does anyone have an extra they are looking to trade, > sell, or hand over the cost of shipping ? I have a microPDP 11/73 in > the original pedestal BA23 with no cards at all in it. Can it even be > called a 11/73 with no cards ? I guess what I have is a BA23 pedestal > with a cool MicroPDP 11/73 badge on it. > > Piling onto this thread (sorry), I'd love to find a BA123 enclosure. I've had this dream of building a "large" (for small values of large) MicroVAX or LSI-11 system for awhile but one's never come my way; anyone out there have one going spare? Thanks, - Josh From brain at jbrain.com Wed May 16 00:39:49 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 00:39:49 -0500 Subject: Oscilloscope Makes In-Reply-To: References: <02b401cd321b$9de9bf60$d9bd3e20$@ntlworld.com> <20120514224429.GA18034@mail.loomcom.com> <4FB1A1FE.2030208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FB33DA5.4030304@jbrain.com> On 5/15/2012 6:53 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 14 May 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 05/14/2012 06:44 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >>> For the price, I love my Rigol. So, I'm tracking Rigol, but does anyone have a PC-based scope they can compare? I like the free-standing approach, but I always have my PC, so I would like to compare/contrast a PC-based scope with the DSOs. I see Rigol has a USB interface. Has anyone used it? If so, what does it offer? Jim From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 15 23:54:51 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 21:54:51 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4ED3CE92-7CA7-4353-880E-30BD5D2871CE@gmail.com> References: , <4ED3CE92-7CA7-4353-880E-30BD5D2871CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FB2D0AB.7528.150A5A@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 May 2012 at 17:14, David Riley wrote: > Oh yes, he's fixed. He's just scared of everything, including (not > entirely unjustifiably) the other cat, who keeps him from getting to > the litterbox until it's far too late. Alas! The next step is kitty > Prozac, but we're not entirely out of options yet. By far, the worst malevolent urniation issues with a cat I've ever had was with a spayed calico female. I had to install an automatic door closer on my music room because she couldn't resist peeing on the tubas... Cat urine tarnishes silverplate something awful. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 16 00:00:42 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 23:00:42 -0600 Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <4FB3158A.7000108@atarimuseum.com> References: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <4FB3158A.7000108@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4FB3347A.6030908@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/15/2012 8:48 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > You try hooking it up to a bench top power supply just to make sure it > works, are the power lines to it getting proper voltage? The basic > stuff... if those aren't panning out, you may have a ceased motor, and > its time to either scrap and replace it, or disassemble and rebuild it. > Or clean it. > Stefan Skoglund wrote: >> see subject. >> >> What can i do about this ? (The fan doesn't turn when applying power.) >> > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 16 00:50:58 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 22:50:58 -0700 Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB28BBC.29111.1E1847E@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4FB2DDD2.1664.486D42@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 May 2012 at 20:00, Zane H. Healy wrote: > That WW II Megger looks frighteningly close to what I used in the > Navy. Those were fun! :-) >From the WikiP article: "It is incorrect to use the word "Megger" as a verb, noun or in the plural form. [36] It is an infringement of the trademark if used in reference to a product not made by the Megger Group or its subsidiaries" So, I'm supposed to use it as what, an adjective or adverb? "This PDP-11 is Megger messed up!" Megger-doubtful, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 16 01:01:02 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 02:01:02 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB32BD2.6090906@mail.msu.edu> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2C5C2.3060809@neurotica.com> <4FB2F08F.9070607@gmail.com> <4FB32BD2.6090906@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4FB3429E.5080709@neurotica.com> On 05/16/2012 12:23 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Piling onto this thread (sorry), I'd love to find a BA123 enclosure. > I've had this dream of building a "large" (for small values of large) > MicroVAX or LSI-11 system for awhile but one's never come my way; anyone > out there have one going spare? ...and while we're on THAT topic, I'm still looking for a power supply for a BA123. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jbbaug at pacbell.net Tue May 15 15:46:49 2012 From: jbbaug at pacbell.net (John Baughman) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 13:46:49 -0700 Subject: Tiny BASIC Extended available In-Reply-To: <200703241255.l2OCtUj8023876@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200703241255.l2OCtUj8023876@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4FB2C0B9.50601@pacbell.net> I have an AMI EVK300 Proto Board, and want to put both TinyBASIC and RAE on it. The problem I have is to first find AMI S6834 EPROMs for the board. I attended a seminar sponsored by AMI at San Jose State college in 1976 where we built the board. AMI was generous in providing the CPU, PIAs, UART, and ROM. I have attached a picture of it. If you or know of S6834 EPROMs available please let me know. John Baughman From jimpdavis at gorge.net Tue May 15 22:21:35 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 20:21:35 -0700 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <4FB303E2.6040309@neurotica.com> References: <1337125502.77272.YahooMailNeo@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4FB303E2.6040309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FB31D3F.6080101@gorge.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 05/15/2012 07:45 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > >> Yes... I know of a teen who got his first vintage computer, a mac plus >> >> It was a bit beaten and dirty, but he cleaned it up and powered it on and he has been looking for a keyboard and mouse for it. >> But this is just the beginning. >> > He needs to start looking for a bigger house. > > Now. > > -Dave > > And a single life ;-) From jimpdavis at gorge.net Tue May 15 23:23:09 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 21:23:09 -0700 Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <4FB312B0.1040609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <4FB312B0.1040609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4FB32BAD.90102@gorge.net> ben wrote: > On 5/15/2012 6:12 PM, Stefan Skoglund wrote: >> see subject. >> >> What can i do about this ? (The fan doesn't turn when applying power.) > > Check Vff for 6.3 vac, then try draining the chip. > see the 25120 application notes. > >> > > Can we get more information about fan for what device > and other details please. > Thank You, Ben. > > > > Yes, if the drain is not connected to the municipal waste line, a build-up of discarded bits in the FIFO will cause the part to assert the can_full line. From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Wed May 16 00:30:18 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 17:30:18 +1200 Subject: PDP 11/04 in BA11-K Chassis Message-ID: >It'sd less common, but it's not 'wrong'. > >THe 11/04 and 11/34 could be found either in the BA11-L or BA11-K boxes. >The 11/04 was normally foudn i nthe smalelr box and the 11/34 in the >larger, but that is by no means always the case. Thanks Tony. I guess there was a fair degree of customization possible at time of ordering and the case decision depended a lot on the individual customer requirement. This machine has a controller for RK05 drives which takes 4 unibus slots. It may have been the driver for the case choice. http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/Blog_PDP11_1.JPG http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/Blog_PDP11_2.JPG http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/Blog_PDP11_3.JPG Regards Andrew From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed May 16 01:07:39 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 08:07:39 +0200 Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <20120516060738.GA17678@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 02:12:12AM +0200, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > see subject. > > What can i do about this ? (The fan doesn't turn when applying power.) > Perhaps try to find a spare Indy and replace it? Whereabouts are you? Regards, Pontus. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 16 01:33:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 02:33:30 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB2D0AB.7528.150A5A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4ED3CE92-7CA7-4353-880E-30BD5D2871CE@gmail.com> <4FB2D0AB.7528.150A5A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FB34A3A.7070908@neurotica.com> On 05/16/2012 12:54 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > By far, the worst malevolent urniation issues with a cat I've ever > had was with a spayed calico female. I had to install an automatic > door closer on my music room because she couldn't resist peeing on > the tubas... Peeing...on...the...tubas? Seriously? -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 16 01:34:15 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 23:34:15 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Makes In-Reply-To: <04ae01cd32fe$c7d10a20$6500a8c0@tababook> References: <02b401cd321b$9de9bf60$d9bd3e20$@ntlworld.com>, <04ae01cd32fe$c7d10a20$6500a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: Hi While tektronix make great scopes, I wouldn't say they are the only choice. I've used many over the years and have no complaint on the tek scopes. Still, my main home scope is a Leader 4 channel 100MHz with delayed sweep. Other than the occational flakey switch contact on the push buttons ( poke them a few times ), the trigger works as good or better than any of the tektronix I've use. Clearly better of any HP from that time frame. I have found the occational need for a digital storage scope. I've been using a old Nicolet Explorer III with the 204 input. It works OK but these are really old and it pops a tantalum cap every now and then. They are kind of cool in that you can capture onto a disk for latter looking at. The one I have has a 488 interface as well. Many come wth none and some even have a RS232. Should anyone get one, I do have a copy ( I mean copy ) of the service manual. A needed addition to keep them working. They are kind of cool in that the scope runs on a 2900 bit slice processor. I've used the storage scope to look at floppy data. I use the delayed sweep on the Leader to trigger the storage. Klunky but it works. I can pick out sectors that way. I have an old logic analyzer but haven figured how I might use it. Dwight > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Oscilloscope Makes > Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 21:55:35 -0300 > > > I'd forget anything not tektronix for analog scopes. > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rob Jarratt" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 6:50 PM > Subject: Oscilloscope Makes > > > >> > will come to wonder how you ever got along without one, even if it's a > >> > 2-channel analog scope with relatively low bandwidth. They're so > >> > useful for so many things; I promise you won't regret it (as long as > >> > you don't go bargain- hunting and find one that you also have to fix). > >> > >> Indeed, I bought a Hameg HM605, it was working OK, although not fully > >> calibrated. But it has now developed a fault, with the probe not > >> connected > > to > >> anything, move the y-POS off the zero line and you get a 100Hz square > >> wave. Might need another scope to fix this one.... > >> > >> > > >> > My scope is a 100 MHz analog scope with 4 channels that I got on eBay > >> > for about $200. Everything worked great in it except for a fan, which > >> > was easy enough to replace. You should be able to find plenty of good > >> > ones in OK condition for around that price, assuming the UK > >> > second-hand market is in any way similar to ours. > >> > > > > > What makes would you suggest, beyond Tektronix and Hameg, are there any > > other makes that are generally good and won't cost the earth second hand? > > HP, Gould? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 16 02:11:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 03:11:20 -0400 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <4FB31D3F.6080101@gorge.net> References: <1337125502.77272.YahooMailNeo@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4FB303E2.6040309@neurotica.com> <4FB31D3F.6080101@gorge.net> Message-ID: <4FB35318.4060801@neurotica.com> On 05/15/2012 11:21 PM, jimpdavis wrote: >>> Yes... I know of a teen who got his first vintage computer, a mac plus >>> >>> It was a bit beaten and dirty, but he cleaned it up and powered it on >>> and he has been looking for a keyboard and mouse for it. >>> But this is just the beginning. >>> >> He needs to start looking for a bigger house. >> >> Now. > > And a single life ;-) Nah, just a Significant Other who understands that she (assuming "she") can't have a zebra without the stripes. My lady helps me find (and move!) big iron. She knows that's my world. If I can find a reasonable spouse, so can anyone. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 16 02:21:55 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 02:21:55 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB32BD2.6090906@mail.msu.edu> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2C5C2.3060809@neurotica.com> <4FB2F08F.9070607@gmail.com> <4FB32BD2.6090906@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: Hi Josh, I think I saw one the other day, but have no idea of the config. I have most boards you would use and some drives. I'm outside Champaign ,IL. Where are you located? thanks, Paul On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 5/15/2012 5:10 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >> On 5/15/2012 2:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>> Hardly anyone has 11/93s. I have an 11/94 (Unibus version) but it's dead. >>> 11/73s are pretty much everywhere, though. >>>> >>>> The 11/73 is the one that's got the 15MHz CPU and accesses memory across >>>> the QBus, right? >>> >>> ? Yes, except that quad-width 11/73 CPU boards (KDJ11B) can use PMI >>> memory. ?Duals (KDJ11A) cannot. ?Also, earlier revs can't take an FPJ11 >>> chip, but later ones can. >>> >>> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >>> >> >> On that note does anyone have an extra they are looking to trade, sell, or >> hand over the cost of shipping ? I have a microPDP 11/73 in the original >> pedestal BA23 with no cards at all in it. Can it even be called a 11/73 with >> no cards ? I guess what I have is a BA23 pedestal with a cool MicroPDP 11/73 >> badge on it. >> >> > > Piling onto this thread (sorry), I'd love to find a BA123 enclosure. ?I've > had this dream of building a "large" (for small values of large) MicroVAX or > LSI-11 system for awhile but one's never come my way; anyone out there have > one going spare? > > Thanks, > - Josh From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 16 02:39:01 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 08:39:01 +0100 Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <4FB32BAD.90102@gorge.net> References: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <4FB312B0.1040609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4FB32BAD.90102@gorge.net> Message-ID: The intarwebs have an expert developing flowcharts for the purpose of PC repair I commend to the user http://xkcd.com/627/ Dave Caroline From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 16 02:44:31 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 08:44:31 +0100 Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <4FB35ADF.2010604@dunnington.plus.com> On 16/05/2012 01:12, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > see subject. > > What can i do about this ? (The fan doesn't turn when applying power.) Power to the Challenge, or to the fan directly? Some variants of the PSU in Indys and Challenge S boxes don't run the fan until the temperature rises above a certain point. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed May 16 03:42:59 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 09:42:59 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> Message-ID: QED993 $175.00 Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine Sent: 16 May 2012 00:43 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/93 >Benjamin Huntsman wrote: >> Pricing on an 11/93 is likely to be outrageous, be warned. The CPU >>board alone is worth a small fortune now. Unless you're willing to >>shell out serious coin, you might be better off setting your sights on >>an 11/73. Very nearly as capable, and much more affordable. >> >> -Dave >> >>-- >>Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >>New Kensington, PA >> >That's what I'd been told! What's "outrageous"? Several hundred? Several thousand? Have you seen any sell >lately? >I'm definitely up for some assembly from parts, so I'd be good with acquiring a BA23 pedestal and upgrading the CPU >board later if I could find one. Problem is that sort of thing rarely shows up on eBay, which is why I've been asking >around on a few forums... >Do more than a few hobbyists have 11/93's or 11/73's, or are those fairly uncommon machines? > >The 11/73 is the one that's got the 15MHz CPU and accesses memory across the QBus, right? > What I seem to have missed is exactly WHY the 11/93 is your goal as opposed to an equally capable (as far as the software which can be run) 11/73. The 11/93 might be 33% faster, but it will probably cost at least 5 times the price. If you are using a BA23 box, then with 8 available slots, you should have sufficient slots to accommodate everything you are likely to need when at present you don't know what you want to run as software. At the very least, if you have access to PMI memory, then even if it costs a little bit more, you will get most of the extra speed and almost all quad 11/73 (M8190) boards can use the PMI memory. DEC PMI memory is either 1 MB or 2 MB. 3rd party PMI memory can be 4 MB on a single board. On a BA23 box, ONLY 2 PMI memory boards are allowed in front of the CPU of course. By the way, what software do you want to run? And why is the DEC hardware itself important? Jerome Fine From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed May 16 04:23:36 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 05:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <4FB35318.4060801@neurotica.com> References: <1337125502.77272.YahooMailNeo@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4FB303E2.6040309@neurotica.com> <4FB31D3F.6080101@gorge.net> <4FB35318.4060801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201205160923.FAA13722@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > If I can find a reasonable spouse, so can anyone. I wish. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jaquinn at ihug.co.nz Wed May 16 01:09:51 2012 From: jaquinn at ihug.co.nz (Andrew Quinn) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 18:09:51 +1200 Subject: PDP 11/04 in BA11-K Chassis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >It'sd less common, but it's not 'wrong'. > >THe 11/04 and 11/34 could be found either in the BA11-L or BA11-K boxes. >The 11/04 was normally foudn i nthe smalelr box and the 11/34 in the >larger, but that is by no means always the case. Thanks Tony. I guess there was a fair degree of customization possible at time of ordering and the case decision depended a lot on the individual customer requirement. This machine has a controller for RK05 drives which takes 4 unibus slots. It may have been the driver for the case choice. http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/Blog_PDP11_1.JPG http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/Blog_PDP11_2.JPG http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/Blog_PDP11_3.JPG Regards Andrew From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed May 16 02:03:52 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 00:03:52 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Makes In-Reply-To: <4FB33DA5.4030304@jbrain.com> References: <02b401cd321b$9de9bf60$d9bd3e20$@ntlworld.com> <20120514224429.GA18034@mail.loomcom.com> <4FB1A1FE.2030208@neurotica.com> <4FB33DA5.4030304@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4FB35158.3000508@gorge.net> Jim Brain wrote: > On 5/15/2012 6:53 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Mon, 14 May 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> On 05/14/2012 06:44 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >>>> For the price, I love my Rigol. > So, I'm tracking Rigol, but does anyone have a PC-based scope they can > compare? I like the free-standing approach, but I always have my PC, > so I would like to compare/contrast a PC-based scope with the DSOs. > > I see Rigol has a USB interface. Has anyone used it? If so, what > does it offer? > > Jim > > you can hook it to the really piss-poor scope software they bundle, or you can run it from labview and maybe other test automation systems. From pye at mactec.com.au Wed May 16 05:58:10 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:58:10 +1000 Subject: HP 9820A Message-ID: I was dropping off some rubbish today at the local council dump, and noticed an old HP machine in the trailer next to me. I didn't even say anything, I just stopped and stared at it and the guy asked if I wanted it. When I said yeah, he replied with "shame you weren't a few minutes earlier, I just chucked two others in the recycling bin and all the manuals and tapes/cards are in the pit." Turned out to be an HP 9820A, and I managed to get the other 9820A and a 9810A out of the recycling bin without anyone noticing. Unfortunately couldn't retrieve anything else. Just wondering if there is anything in particular to watch out for when powering up one of these for the first time other than normal power supply checks? I (obviously) don't know much about these machines at all, but I'm particularly mystified about how the built in card reader worked (is it magnetic?).. Could it be written to as well? Cheers, Chris From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed May 16 06:06:53 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 12:06:53 +0100 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <201205160923.FAA13722@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1337125502.77272.YahooMailNeo@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4FB303E2.6040309@neurotica.com> <4FB31D3F.6080101@gorge.net> <4FB35318.4060801@neurotica.com> <201205160923.FAA13722@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Mouse wrote: >> If I can find a reasonable spouse, so can anyone. > > I wish. Mine is very unreasonable, but we talked about that before.... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better? Amelia: Yeah. Doctor: Everything's going to be fine. From chrise at pobox.com Wed May 16 06:17:14 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 06:17:14 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: <95794EB1-5AFC-491D-8F09-9814A920FD0A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120516111713.GA3869@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (05/15/2012 at 07:41PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > Ditto. I love having them aroudn me when I am fixing things... > > > our child will prove far more destructive than any cat in time ] A friend was just telling the story of how is four year old son climbed up on top of the audio system subwoofer and pee'd into the large screen TV that was operating nearby. Seems like maybe that kid should have had his private parts adjusted/removed too. -- Chris Elmquist From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed May 16 06:36:13 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 13:36:13 +0200 Subject: HP 9820A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2724217B-F06B-4F88-BD15-CFFE05C5BF4C@xs4all.nl> www.hpmuseum.net / org Computer museum and calculator museum on both you find ? lot of info. In most cases the printer platen and cardreader neef to be fixend. CPU is build out of 4 TTL-boards in both machines memory and rom differs. You sjoels check the psu boards begier switch on. m.vr.gr. Rik Bos Op 16 mei 2012 om 12:58 heeft Chris Pye het volgende geschreven: > I was dropping off some rubbish today at the local council dump, and noticed an old HP machine in the trailer next to me. I didn't even say anything, I just stopped and stared at it and the guy asked if I wanted it. When I said yeah, he replied with "shame you weren't a few minutes earlier, I just chucked two others in the recycling bin and all the manuals and tapes/cards are in the pit." > > Turned out to be an HP 9820A, and I managed to get the other 9820A and a 9810A out of the recycling bin without anyone noticing. Unfortunately couldn't retrieve anything else. > > Just wondering if there is anything in particular to watch out for when powering up one of these for the first time other than normal power supply checks? > > I (obviously) don't know much about these machines at all, but I'm particularly mystified about how the built in card reader worked (is it magnetic?).. Could it be written to as well? > > > Cheers, > Chris > > > > > From holm at freibergnet.de Wed May 16 07:38:51 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 14:38:51 +0200 Subject: H9278 Disk distribution Paneel.. Message-ID: <20120516123851.GA20799@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, someone wrote on this list, that the Disk distribution Paneel that is mounted on the Back of the Backplane from some 11's are faulty and will destroy data from the disks if two are connected. I cn't find the posting now... What kind of (wiring-) fault is this? Are there Fixes known? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed May 16 07:55:53 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 08:55:53 -0400 Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <4FB2DDD2.1664.486D42@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB28BBC.29111.1E1847E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FB2DDD2.1664.486D42@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20A3A70F-BD7C-46F9-9FDD-52261A7B026E@gmail.com> On May 16, 2012, at 1:50 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 May 2012 at 20:00, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> That WW II Megger looks frighteningly close to what I used in the >> Navy. Those were fun! :-) > > From the WikiP article: > > "It is incorrect to use the word "Megger" as a verb, noun or in the > plural form. [36] It is an infringement of the trademark if used in > reference to a product not made by the Megger Group or its > subsidiaries" > > So, I'm supposed to use it as what, an adjective or adverb? > > "This PDP-11 is Megger messed up!" They probably mean to use it as a proper noun, which I suppose is actually a subset of the set of nouns. - Dave From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed May 16 08:12:40 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 09:12:40 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FB3A7C8.9010708@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: >On 05/15/2012 09:42 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > > >> Why the DEC hardware? What else is there? :) I've always liked DEC stuff, >>and don't usually consider non-DEC stuff for hobby purposes. >> >> > > He's going to try to push you toward an emulator. Many people just >don't seem to get that it's NOT "all about the software". > > My 11/70 was on exhibit at VCF-East last week. People were going >"ooh, ahh" like there was no tomorrow...and it was NOT because it was >running RSTS/E with Dungeon, Advent, language compilers, etc etc. > > (no offense intended to Jerome..) > > -Dave > And NONE taken. I definitely admit that I am just as addicted to software, specifically the RT-11 operating system and layered products, on the PDP-11 as many other individuals on this list are addicted to their own area of focus in hardware. And there probably is not that much of a difference. About the only aspect of software that might be substantially different is that there always seem to be additional enhancements along with bug fixes to provide a challenge in the software area. Perhaps one of the hardware addicts could help me understand something that is similar on the hardware side of the fence. For example, one recent software project is to enhance the KED / KEX RT-11 full screen editor to support more than 24 vertical lines which is all that were available in the early 1980s from DEC. When DEC produced the VT420, even that terminal has such a small screen that the 48 vertical lines result in very compressed characters. Now that I have available 24" monitors with software that supports up to 60 vertical lines, the challenge to use that capability seems irresistible - I guess because I am an addict PLUS the additional lines help make changing the software much easier. Since I now routinely use Ersatz-11 with a video card that supports 50 rows by 80 columns AND 44 rows by 132 columns, having a K4x.SAV program file which supports up to 60 vertical lines seems much more satisfying than having solved a Sudoku puzzle - although writing a program to solve Sudoku puzzles would also be a fun effort. Has anyone else any experience with PDP-11 software or hardware with terminals that support more than 24 vertical lines? Jerome Fine From technobug at comcast.net Wed May 16 08:42:15 2012 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 06:42:15 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2751323E-F4F6-484D-BE66-2A3E5DE435EB@comcast.net> On Tue, 15 May 2012 21:54:51 -0700, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > By far, the worst malevolent urniation issues with a cat I've ever > had was with a spayed calico female. I had to install an automatic > door closer on my music room because she couldn't resist peeing on > the tubas... > > Cat urine tarnishes silverplate something awful. > > --Chuck Sounds like a music critic to me... ->CRC From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 16 08:49:08 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 06:49:08 -0700 Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <20A3A70F-BD7C-46F9-9FDD-52261A7B026E@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, , <4FB28BBC.29111.1E1847E@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4FB2DDD2.1664.486D42@cclist.sydex.com>, <20A3A70F-BD7C-46F9-9FDD-52261A7B026E@gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: fraveydank at gmail.com > > On May 16, 2012, at 1:50 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 15 May 2012 at 20:00, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > >> That WW II Megger looks frighteningly close to what I used in the > >> Navy. Those were fun! :-) > > > > From the WikiP article: > > > > "It is incorrect to use the word "Megger" as a verb, noun or in the > > plural form. [36] It is an infringement of the trademark if used in > > reference to a product not made by the Megger Group or its > > subsidiaries" > > > > So, I'm supposed to use it as what, an adjective or adverb? > > > > "This PDP-11 is Megger messed up!" > > They probably mean to use it as a proper noun, which I suppose is > actually a subset of the set of nouns. > > > - Dave > Hi In any case, I used one like that to check coax until we got a TWR. I remember that we had to go out onto the field to disconnect the baluns or it would magnetize them. Dwight From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed May 16 09:44:34 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 16:44:34 +0200 Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <20120516060738.GA17678@Update.UU.SE> References: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20120516060738.GA17678@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <1337179474.7549.1.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> ons 2012-05-16 klockan 08:07 +0200 skrev Pontus Pihlgren: > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 02:12:12AM +0200, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > see subject. > > > > What can i do about this ? (The fan doesn't turn when applying power.) > > > > Perhaps try to find a spare Indy and replace it? > > Whereabouts are you? > > Regards, > Pontus. Sk?vde. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed May 16 09:51:21 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 16:51:21 +0200 Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <1337179881.7549.7.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> ons 2012-05-16 klockan 02:12 +0200 skrev Stefan Skoglund: > see subject. > > What can i do about this ? (The fan doesn't turn when applying power.) > Before the fan started as soon as i pushed the start button (of course with mains applied.) So did the disks too. Nothing of this happens now. The PSU gets warm (not hot) but it worries me a bit that the memory banks also heats up. The processor sink also heats up. This is with the lid removed so the processor sink should get a bit warm. To the hecklers: THIS IS NOT ANY PEEECCEEE I hope i was pretty clear about the type of machine (SGI Challenge S) :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 16 10:49:19 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 08:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <1337179881.7549.7.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <1337179881.7549.7.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <20120516084235.L70362@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 16 May 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > To the hecklers: > THIS IS NOT ANY PEEECCEEE > > I hope i was pretty clear about the type of machine (SGI Challenge > S) :-) Actually, it was quite easy to misinterpret the title as "challenge s" being a synonym for "difficulty". Sorry about that. Capitalizing might have helped a little, but not necessarily enough at the beginning of the line. Perhaps "nonworking fan in SGI Challenge S"? What else can you tell us about that fan? Will other fans FIT? ("Dude, you're getting a Dell"?) Is it a good enough one to warrant the effort of trying to fix it, rather than replacement? How are the bearings in it? Does it TRY to turn? Continuity? Shorts? From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed May 16 11:22:27 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 09:22:27 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2C5C2.3060809@neurotica.com> <4FB2F08F.9070607@gmail.com> <4FB32BD2.6090906@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4FB3D443.3050401@mail.msu.edu> On 5/16/2012 12:21 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Josh, > > I think I saw one the other day, but have no idea of the config. I > have most boards you would use and some drives. I'm outside Champaign > ,IL. Where are you located? I'm in the Seattle, WA area. I'm guessing that shipping costs would be prohibitive :). Thanks, Josh > thanks, Paul > > On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> On 5/15/2012 5:10 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> On 5/15/2012 2:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> Hardly anyone has 11/93s. I have an 11/94 (Unibus version) but it's dead. >>>> 11/73s are pretty much everywhere, though. >>>>> The 11/73 is the one that's got the 15MHz CPU and accesses memory across >>>>> the QBus, right? >>>> Yes, except that quad-width 11/73 CPU boards (KDJ11B) can use PMI >>>> memory. Duals (KDJ11A) cannot. Also, earlier revs can't take an FPJ11 >>>> chip, but later ones can. >>>> >>>> -Dave >>>> >>> On that note does anyone have an extra they are looking to trade, sell, or >>> hand over the cost of shipping ? I have a microPDP 11/73 in the original >>> pedestal BA23 with no cards at all in it. Can it even be called a 11/73 with >>> no cards ? I guess what I have is a BA23 pedestal with a cool MicroPDP 11/73 >>> badge on it. >>> >>> >> Piling onto this thread (sorry), I'd love to find a BA123 enclosure. I've >> had this dream of building a "large" (for small values of large) MicroVAX or >> LSI-11 system for awhile but one's never come my way; anyone out there have >> one going spare? >> >> Thanks, >> - Josh > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 16 11:32:07 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 12:32:07 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I've used a megger to test HV lines powering photomultiplier tubes. > > I am suprised they;'re a high enough voltage for that, I seem to remeber > using about 3.5kV to 5kV to power a PM tube, so you'd want ot megger it > at at least that (HV leaks are nsty thigns that tend not to appear until > you get close to the working votlage. This is, of ocurse, Murphy's Law...) We ran ours around 900V-2200V, but, yes, you want to test around operational voltage to look for leaks. We found them - not usually by brushing up against the cables, fortunately, but because bad cables tripped the source crowbars (they would only permit a few mA before shutting down a channel to prevent damage). I believe our issues were more with a damaged internal conductor than the external jacket - caused often by aggressive ty-wrap installation. >> Never used one with classic computer gear (yet). > > Well, obviously you dont; use them anywhwere near the logic (unless you > work on vlaved machines :-)). Right. > But I do chekc the isulatuion fo mains > transfiormers, fans, etc with one. It's better to find the leak.breakdown > that way than by having the mains ps thotuh you (or worse, the logic boards!) I've not had issues in that area, but it's always good to know the right tool for the job. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 16 11:43:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 09:43:00 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB34A3A.7070908@neurotica.com> References: , <4FB2D0AB.7528.150A5A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FB34A3A.7070908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FB376A4.16009.1D7AD0@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 May 2012 at 2:33, Dave McGuire wrote: > Peeing...on...the...tubas? Yup. With a passion, it seems. She'd sneak in when nobody was around and do the deed. After having owned four cats, I called it quits after her. She got along with the dogs just fine, which, I suppose, is something to her credit. She used to quarrel with the raccoons--although she got nipped once or twice, they generally avoided her. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed May 16 12:09:20 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 13:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sudoku (was Re: PDP-11/93) In-Reply-To: <4FB3A7C8.9010708@compsys.to> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> <4FB3A7C8.9010708@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...] seems much more satisfying than having solved a Sudoku puzzle - > although writing a program to solve Sudoku puzzles would also be a > fun effort. I found it so. Writing code to generate sudoku was fun too, and gave me an endless supply of sudoku that did not exhibit the patterns so many newsstand books' sudoku do. It also gave me order-4 sudoku (where the usual sudoku is order-3, ie, a 3x3 grid of 3x3 grids, this is a 4x4 grid of 4x4 grids). It could give me higher orders too, but even order-4 is a bit too large for me to really enjoy solving it by hand. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 16 12:34:44 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 10:34:44 -0700 Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <4FB2DDD2.1664.486D42@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB28BBC.29111.1E1847E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FB2DDD2.1664.486D42@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FB3E534.3070609@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > From the WikiP article: "It is incorrect to use the word "Megger" as a > verb, noun or in the plural form. [36] It is an infringement of the > trademark if used in reference to a product not made by the Megger > Group or its subsidiaries" That's just normal trademark stuff that everyone ignores. It's really not appropriate for the article, and should be removed. At most there should be a simple notice of the trademark. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 16 12:37:08 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 10:37:08 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4FB3E5C4.5010601@brouhaha.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > QED993 $175.00 Those are nice, but a lot of us hobbyists are more interested in running real DEC gear than in replacing a DEC CPU with an aftermarket CPU. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 16 12:40:20 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 10:40:20 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <20120516111713.GA3869@n0jcf.net> References: <95794EB1-5AFC-491D-8F09-9814A920FD0A@gmail.com> <20120516111713.GA3869@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4FB3E684.6040602@brouhaha.com> Chris Elmquist wrote: > A friend was just telling the story of how is four year old son > climbed up on top of the audio system subwoofer and pee'd into the > large screen TV that was operating nearby. I don't like broadcast television either, but I've learned to just leave the room. "I find television very educating. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book." -- Groucho Marx From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 16 12:42:56 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 10:42:56 -0700 Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <20A3A70F-BD7C-46F9-9FDD-52261A7B026E@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB28BBC.29111.1E1847E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FB2DDD2.1664.486D42@cclist.sydex.com> <20A3A70F-BD7C-46F9-9FDD-52261A7B026E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FB3E720.8070605@brouhaha.com> David Riley wrote: > They probably mean to use it as a proper noun, which I suppose is > actually a subset of the set of nouns. No, officially trademarks are only ever supposed to be used as adjectives. (In the US, not sure about elsewhere.) But that's really only important to how a company uses its own trademarks, and to how competitors use them. There's no way they can control how the public uses them, other than perhaps by attempting to educate the public. From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 16 12:53:41 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 12:53:41 -0500 Subject: Sudoku (was Re: PDP-11/93) In-Reply-To: <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> <4FB3A7C8.9010708@compsys.to> <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: Hi Mouse, I've been looking for books of the 4x4 ones fior quite a while, but usually just find a handful in the back of a book of 3x3s. Care to share any? Thank, Paul On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 12:09 PM, Mouse wrote: >> [...] seems much more satisfying than having solved a Sudoku puzzle - >> although writing a program to solve Sudoku puzzles would also be a >> fun effort. > > I found it so. ?Writing code to generate sudoku was fun too, and gave > me an endless supply of sudoku that did not exhibit the patterns so > many newsstand books' sudoku do. ?It also gave me order-4 sudoku (where > the usual sudoku is order-3, ie, a 3x3 grid of 3x3 grids, this is a 4x4 > grid of 4x4 grids). ?It could give me higher orders too, but even > order-4 is a bit too large for me to really enjoy solving it by hand. > > /~\ The ASCII ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > ?X ?Against HTML ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! ? ? ? ? ? 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 ?4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed May 16 13:11:30 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 14:11:30 -0400 Subject: Sudoku (was Re: PDP-11/93) In-Reply-To: <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> <4FB3A7C8.9010708@compsys.to> <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1FA1D415-27B0-408E-B6B6-5958C9345A89@gmail.com> On May 16, 2012, at 1:09 PM, Mouse wrote: >> [...] seems much more satisfying than having solved a Sudoku puzzle - >> although writing a program to solve Sudoku puzzles would also be a >> fun effort. > > I found it so. Writing code to generate sudoku was fun too, and gave > me an endless supply of sudoku that did not exhibit the patterns so > many newsstand books' sudoku do. It also gave me order-4 sudoku (where > the usual sudoku is order-3, ie, a 3x3 grid of 3x3 grids, this is a 4x4 > grid of 4x4 grids). It could give me higher orders too, but even > order-4 is a bit too large for me to really enjoy solving it by hand. My experience writing Sudoku solvers was for an algorithms class, which was quite an interesting look at it. It was actually a rather boring algorithm for solving, and the only part that was much challenge was the data structure to bring the time down to O(n^6) instead of O(n^7), where n is the order of the puzzle (e.g. 3 for a normal 9x9 puzzle). I suspect someone more clever than I could get it down below that, but that covers n^4 (all the cells of the puzzle) times n^2 (all the possible values for each cell). - Dave From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 16 13:08:59 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 19:08:59 +0100 Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <20120516060738.GA17678@Update.UU.SE> References: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20120516060738.GA17678@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4FB3ED3B.7000006@dunnington.plus.com> On 16/05/2012 07:07, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 02:12:12AM +0200, Stefan Skoglund wrote: >> see subject. >> >> What can i do about this ? (The fan doesn't turn when applying power.) >> > > Perhaps try to find a spare Indy and replace it? First check it's not just stuck; it may just want some lubrication (light oil, not WD40 or any similar junk). It's rare for fans to burn out, it's common to have bearings problems. Or buy a repalcement. It's a standard size. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 16 13:28:33 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 14:28:33 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB3E5C4.5010601@brouhaha.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <4FB3E5C4.5010601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> QED993 $175.00 > > Those are nice, but a lot of us hobbyists are more interested in running > real DEC gear than in replacing a DEC CPU with an aftermarket CPU. I didn't recognize the QED993, so I googled it. Found this comment on the v-c forum... "The QED 993 is a Xlinix FPGA emulation of a PDP-11. It does not appear to be fully compatible with a J-11 processor. For example, it does not appear to have any FP11 instruction support, which is assumed to be present in a J-11. I haven't been able to get RSTS/E 10.1 or 2.11BSD to run on one I have so for me it is not as interesting as I had hoped." I would personally consider a PDP-11 implementation that could not run 2BSD to be seriously broken for my uses (yes I know about 2.9BSD vs 2.11BSD and Split I&D, etc - that's just about picking the correct PDP-11 type). I surely don't need an uber-fast PDP-11 to run RT-11. I got along fine with an 11/23 system for professional software dev for years - as long as the compiles take a handful of minutes or less, it's fast enough. I don't have anything faster/newer than an 11/53, but for what I do, it's enough. Mostly, I run RT-11 and a little 2BSD. -ethan From sander.reiche at gmail.com Wed May 16 13:34:27 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:34:27 +0200 Subject: Sudoku (was Re: PDP-11/93) In-Reply-To: <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> <4FB3A7C8.9010708@compsys.to> <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <99F312C8-1D60-47EF-87BB-FFBB91F4B4C1@gmail.com> On 16 mei 2012, at 19:09, Mouse wrote: > I found it so. Writing code to generate sudoku was fun too, and gave > me an endless supply of sudoku that did not exhibit the patterns so > many newsstand books' sudoku do. It also gave me order-4 sudoku (where > the usual sudoku is order-3, ie, a 3x3 grid of 3x3 grids, this is a 4x4 > grid of 4x4 grids). It could give me higher orders too, but even > order-4 is a bit too large for me to really enjoy solving it by hand. Mouse, Where did you write it in and for what hardware? I'm of course, hoping for assembly on the PDP-11 outputting to a terminal :) re, Sander From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 16 13:34:33 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 14:34:33 -0400 Subject: 8088 Tiny Basic app note? Message-ID: <4FB3F339.6080000@neurotica.com> In his two-part BYTE Magazine article entitled "Ease Into 16-bit Computing", Steve Ciarcia stated: "Intel is publishing an application note describing a small (seven integrated circuits) multi-user Tiny BASIC system that uses the 8088." Does anyone know of this app note, or have an electronic copy? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 16 13:48:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 14:48:56 -0400 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: References: <1337125502.77272.YahooMailNeo@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4FB303E2.6040309@neurotica.com> <4FB31D3F.6080101@gorge.net> <4FB35318.4060801@neurotica.com> <201205160923.FAA13722@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4FB3F698.6030300@neurotica.com> On 05/16/2012 07:06 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >>> If I can find a reasonable spouse, so can anyone. >> >> I wish. > > Mine is very unreasonable, but we talked about that before.... This is a problem that can be solved. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 16 13:49:25 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 14:49:25 -0400 Subject: HP 9820A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB3F6B5.90803@neurotica.com> Wowwow...Congrats on EXCELLENT last-minute rescue! -Dave On 05/16/2012 06:58 AM, Chris Pye wrote: > I was dropping off some rubbish today at the local council dump, and noticed an old HP machine in the trailer next to me. I didn't even say anything, I just stopped and stared at it and the guy asked if I wanted it. When I said yeah, he replied with "shame you weren't a few minutes earlier, I just chucked two others in the recycling bin and all the manuals and tapes/cards are in the pit." > > Turned out to be an HP 9820A, and I managed to get the other 9820A and a 9810A out of the recycling bin without anyone noticing. Unfortunately couldn't retrieve anything else. > > Just wondering if there is anything in particular to watch out for when powering up one of these for the first time other than normal power supply checks? > > I (obviously) don't know much about these machines at all, but I'm particularly mystified about how the built in card reader worked (is it magnetic?).. Could it be written to as well? > > > Cheers, > Chris > > > > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed May 16 13:51:37 2012 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 19:51:37 +0100 Subject: PDP11 system for sale Message-ID: I have decided to part with my PDP11/84 system, consisting of an 11/84 with 4MB Ram, two RL02 drives, and SCSI interface connected to 3 x Sony Magneto-optical drives. There is also an Emulex terminal multiplexor, all in a DEC cabinet, standing around 5' high. The system is located in the South of England, and was working when removed, some 5 years ago, but I haven't tried it since. I would prefer the buyer to collect, and I can probably find a terminal or two to go with it. Email me for more details. Jim. From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 16 14:08:53 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 12:08:53 -0700 Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <4FB3E534.3070609@brouhaha.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB2DDD2.1664.486D42@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FB3E534.3070609@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FB398D5.14448.A30A86@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 May 2012 at 10:34, Eric Smith wrote: > That's just normal trademark stuff that everyone ignores. It's really > not appropriate for the article, and should be removed. At most there > should be a simple notice of the trademark. So it's a "Megger megger"? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 16 14:12:24 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 12:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <20A3A70F-BD7C-46F9-9FDD-52261A7B026E@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB28BBC.29111.1E1847E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FB2DDD2.1664.486D42@cclist.sydex.com> <20A3A70F-BD7C-46F9-9FDD-52261A7B026E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120516121104.J76048@shell.lmi.net> > > "It is incorrect to use the word "Megger" as a verb, noun or in the > > plural form. [36] It is an infringement of the trademark if used in > > reference to a product not made by the Megger Group or its > > subsidiaries" > > So, I'm supposed to use it as what, an adjective or adverb? > > "This PDP-11 is Megger messed up!" On Wed, 16 May 2012, David Riley wrote: > They probably mean to use it as a proper noun, which I suppose is > actually a subset of the set of nouns. So what is the correct generic term for a MEGA-Ohm meter? Should "megger" have been permitted trademark registration? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 16 14:20:29 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 14:20:29 -0500 Subject: Ge workmaster (ibm 5155 rebrand) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9499/workmasters.jpg http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/8506/mobo2t.jpg the mobo in the one i picked up off ebay gives eror 301 but the keyboard still works? and 48? not sure what 48 is anyone know? and has 640k of ram and when u boot it loads up ibm personal computer basic ver c1.10 c 1981 7 cards in total inside it http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/2923/workcards.jpg discoverd the plc controllor card inside it is one i alread have 2 spare sets of in box. i've tried loading my floppies i duno if they're any good it gives me different errors when i try different ones so obiously reading them if i could get dos to load i would place some simcity on it for old times sake From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 16 14:11:31 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:11:31 +0100 Subject: H9278 Disk distribution Paneel.. In-Reply-To: <20120516123851.GA20799@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120516123851.GA20799@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FB3FBE3.2090008@dunnington.plus.com> On 16/05/2012 13:38, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hi, > someone wrote on this list, that the Disk distribution Paneel that is > mounted on the Back of the Backplane from some 11's are faulty and > will destroy data from the disks if two are connected. > I cn't find the posting now... > > What kind of (wiring-) fault is this? Are there Fixes known? It's /not/ a wiring fault. The H9278 is the backplane for a BA23, and the 34-way connectors are wired as a bus in the standard way. This means if you plug in two drives, you must set them to be different drive selects, as documented in several DEC manuals for that backplane/box. If you don't do that, but plug in two drives which are set to use the same selects (eg both set to DS0, or both set to DS1) they will both be selected at the same time, and that will cause trouble. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 16 14:30:28 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 12:30:28 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <4FB3E5C4.5010601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: That quote about the QED993 from the VC forum was from me. I was disappointed by the lack of compatibility and haven't done much with the one I have. I think Josh also bought one of those. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 16 14:31:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 12:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <4FB3ED3B.7000006@dunnington.plus.com> References: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20120516060738.GA17678@Update.UU.SE> <4FB3ED3B.7000006@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20120516123059.K76048@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 16 May 2012, Pete Turnbull wrote: > First check it's not just stuck; it may just want some lubrication > (light oil, not WD40 or any similar junk). It's rare for fans to burn > out, it's common to have bearings problems. Or buy a repalcement. It's > a standard size. First remove all dead mammals, arachnids, and insects, and any parts thereof! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 16 14:47:46 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 12:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <4FB3F698.6030300@neurotica.com> References: <1337125502.77272.YahooMailNeo@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4FB303E2.6040309@neurotica.com> <4FB31D3F.6080101@gorge.net> <4FB35318.4060801@neurotica.com> <201205160923.FAA13722@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FB3F698.6030300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120516124731.P76048@shell.lmi.net> > >>> If I can find a reasonable spouse, so can anyone. Does she have a sister? From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed May 16 14:54:30 2012 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:54:30 +0100 Subject: Fw: PDP11 system for sale Message-ID: <92CD6E7598A2484C8B433FC502958DAC@XPBOX> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Beacon" To: "Classic computer list" Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 7:51 PM Subject: PDP11 system for sale >I have decided to part with my PDP11/84 system, consisting of an 11/84 with >4MB Ram, two RL02 drives, and SCSI interface connected to 3 x Sony >Magneto-optical drives. There is also an Emulex terminal multiplexor, all >in a DEC cabinet, standing around 5' high. > > The system is located in the South of England, and was working when > removed, some 5 years ago, but I haven't tried it since. > > I would prefer the buyer to collect, and I can probably find a terminal or > two to go with it. > > Email me for more details. > > Jim. From holm at freibergnet.de Wed May 16 15:23:19 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 22:23:19 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <4FB3E5C4.5010601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120516202319.GB46384@beast.freibergnet.de> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> > >> QED993 $175.00 > > > > Those are nice, but a lot of us hobbyists are more interested in running > > real DEC gear than in replacing a DEC CPU with an aftermarket CPU. > > I didn't recognize the QED993, so I googled it. Found this comment on > the v-c forum... > > "The QED 993 is a Xlinix FPGA emulation of a PDP-11. It does not > appear to be fully compatible with a J-11 processor. For example, it > does not appear to have any FP11 instruction support, which is assumed > to be present in a J-11. I haven't been able to get RSTS/E 10.1 or > 2.11BSD to run on one I have so for me it is not as interesting as I > had hoped." > > I would personally consider a PDP-11 implementation that could not run > 2BSD to be seriously broken for my uses (yes I know about 2.9BSD vs > 2.11BSD and Split I&D, etc - that's just about picking the correct > PDP-11 type). I surely don't need an uber-fast PDP-11 to run RT-11. > I got along fine with an 11/23 system for professional software dev > for years - as long as the compiles take a handful of minutes or less, > it's fast enough. > > I don't have anything faster/newer than an 11/53, but for what I do, > it's enough. Mostly, I run RT-11 and a little 2BSD. > > -ethan Waht do you du on 2BSD? Regards, Holm(Unix guy and PDP11 Fan) -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 13:24:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 19:24:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB2640D.10461.146829B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 15, 12 02:11:25 pm Message-ID: > Another related term is "Hipot". An adjustable high-voltage source > with an insulated probe. Indispensible for testing (sometimes > destructively) susceptibility to ESD, although I suspect a cat and a > pair of rubber-soled shoes might work as well. Hence the 'Hipot tested' labels you sometimes see on things. There's also a 'flash tester' whcih is like a high votlage megger that only provides a high voltage pulse. You might flash-test the windings of a mains transformer to the cor are 4kV or so. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 13:32:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 19:32:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <4FB28BBC.29111.1E1847E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 15, 12 05:00:44 pm Message-ID: > > Just looked up "Megger" on WikiP and discovered that it's all part of > the same group as AVO. The name of the company producing the gadged AVO is of course an acronym for Amps, Volts, Ohms. The AVOmeter was one of the firrst multimeters in the UK (I think you can find them form the 1930s, if not earlier). Old hands over here use the term 'AVO' (or AVOmeter) generically to refer to a multimeter, even if not of that make. So if one fo them says 'Have yuo got an AVO?' and you hand him a Fluke 87, he'll be happy (although the company lawyers won't be :-)) AVO made other test gear too. Their valve testers (or 'Valve Characteristic Meters' are rather nice instruemnts, for example. I've also used AVO brand signal generators, bridges and transistor testers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 13:36:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 19:36:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <1337127132.7549.0.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> from "Stefan Skoglund" at May 16, 12 02:12:12 am Message-ID: > > see subject. > > What can i do about this ? (The fan doesn't turn when applying power.) Well, you could start by giving use some more information :-). 'Fan' covers a lot of different devices, and 'not working' can mean a lot of things too. In particular ; Is it a computer fan, or an RK05 type blower, or a table fan, or a window fan, or what? Is it AC, DC, what voltage, etc? Is there definitely the right voltage at at he fan terminals? What about the polarity if it's a DC fan? HAs it ever worked in this location? Does it turn freely by hand? Does it attempt to run? Can you start it by hand and have it keep going It almost certainly can be got going again, but it may take more work than you want to put in. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 13:59:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 19:59:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <4FB312B0.1040609@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at May 15, 12 08:36:32 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/15/2012 6:12 PM, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > see subject. > > > > What can i do about this ? (The fan doesn't turn when applying power.) > > Check Vff for 6.3 vac, then try draining the chip. > see the 25120 application notes. I've only ever sene the 25120 data sheet. There are application notes too? I know that according to the data sheet, a failed fan can cause the 25120 WOM to overheat and fail (it needs serious airflow!), but I wasn't aware that the reverse was the case. Is this some magnetic effect? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 14:38:28 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:38:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/04 in BA11-K Chassis In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Quinn" at May 16, 12 05:30:18 pm Message-ID: > > This machine has a controller for RK05 drives which takes 4 unibus > slots. It may have been the driver for the case choice. Yes, that would explaim it. The PDP11/04 CPU board (and for that matter the 11/34 CPU boards) has to go in a special 9 slot backpalne. The remaining slots of that can be used for the frontpanel interface (if you have one), memory, SPC (small peripheral controllers) and so on. The RK11-D cotnrolelr for the RK05 is 4 boars that have to go in their own speical 4-slot backplen, they can't go in the CPU backplane slots. Now, the 5.25" box (BA11-L) can only take one 9 slot or 2 4 slot backplanes. So it can take the CPU backplane, but there's no space for the RK11-D. The 10.5" box (BA11-K) can take the CPU (9 slot) backplane, and 3 mroe 4 slot backpalens, or a 9 sltor and a 4 slot backplane (actually, it can take 6 4 slot backples too, if you're not using it for the CPU). So you could put the CPU backplane nad hte RK11-D in there and have room to spare. Having the CPU io nthe bigger box would be simpler and cheaper than adding a second box as an expansion cabinet to hold the RK11-D. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 14:40:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:40:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <4FB2DDD2.1664.486D42@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 15, 12 10:50:58 pm Message-ID: > "It is incorrect to use the word "Megger" as a verb, noun or in the > plural form. [36] It is an infringement of the trademark if used in > reference to a product not made by the Megger Group or its > subsidiaries" > > So, I'm supposed to use it as what, an adjective or adverb? Probably an adjective. 'A Megger high-voltage insulation tester'. Not that anybody does. It may be incorrect but everybody (and most books too) talk about 'A Megger' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 14:49:12 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:49:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <4FB35318.4060801@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 16, 12 03:11:20 am Message-ID: > If I can find a reasonable spouse, so can anyone. OK, what's the trick?So far I've not managed to find a spouse, reasoanble or not. Is this another regional thing? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 15:17:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 21:17:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9820A In-Reply-To: from "Chris Pye" at May 16, 12 08:58:10 pm Message-ID: > > Turned out to be an HP 9820A, and I mana> ged to get the other 9820A and > a 9810A out of the recycling bin without anyone noticing. Unfortunately > couldn't retrieve anything else. VERY nice finds. Those are examples of the second series of HP desktop caclulators, known as HP9800s. The HP9810 is a 3-level stack machine. It's not strictly RPN in my opinion becuase there is no automatic stack lift/drop on most operations. It's simialr to the HP9100 in this respect. The HP9820 is HP's first algebraic notation calculator. There are 2 other machines in the family. The (rare) HP9821 is an HP9820 with a built-in digital cassette drive in place of the card reader. The HP9830 is a full BASIC language computer. Both are programmable, but have only a few built-in functions. Are there any ROM modules in yours (look on top behind the display)? The maths ROM, for example, adds logs, SIN/COS/TAN, etc. The machines can work without any extra ROMs, so not having them is not a disaster. The 9820 will have a built-in thermal printer (I think it's standard on that model), it's an option on the 9810 (Opt 004 IIRC). It is the same unit, so if you have no pritner in the 9810 you could move one from one of the 9820s into it. > Just wondering if there is anything in particular to watch out for > when powering up one of these for the first time other than normal power > supply checks? I'll answer that in a moment, since there's quite a bit to say. > > I (obviously) don't know much about these machines at all, but I'm > particularly mystified about how the built in card reader worked (is it > magnetic?).. Could it be written to as well? YEs, it's magnetic, yes it writes too. It puts 3 data tracks nad oen timing track on the card, you put one end fo the card in, then turn it round and put the other end in to get twcie the capacity (in other words it only uised half the width of the card at a time. It's a pity you didn't get any cards, those are not easy to find. You can get user manauls, the HP service manaul and some unofficial scheamtics from http://www.hpmuseum.net/ OI know a little abotu the insides of the machines. The first thing is that the 9810 and 9820 are vey closely related. About 60" of the internals are the same. The CPU is bit-serial, 16 bit (it's one of the few bit-serial machines you are likely to come across). Actually, that's a simplification. It's bit-serial for binary operations, but does BCD adition one nybble at a time. The CPU is 4 boards (I/O inteface, clock( and I/O state machine), control logic (microcode), data path (ALU and registers)). The CPU is the same on both machines. So is the PSU. THis is 3 boards, One is a 5V swithing regulator. One is +/-12V fopr the analogue electroncis and the ROMs. The last is +16V and +19V for the (PMOS) 11/3 DRAMs and +124V for the printer. These boards are under a cover at the right side of the machine, there are labelled testpoints for all rails apart from the +5V (which you can find on any backplane conenctor). The metal chasis (and mains earth) is conencted to the logic 0V rail and proivides a convenient place to clip the black lead off your meter :-) The printer and card reader are the same too, as is the main backplane. So what's different? The display and keybord obviously, although the keyboard operates on the smae peinciple in both machines. And it's not normal. In fact there's a littke pulse transsformer formed by spiral PCB tracks under each key. The transformers for 2 keys are conencted in inverse series. When yuo press a key you damen one transformer, causing the puse fro mthe other one to be no longer cancelled out. The main diffence thoug, is nthe memroy box. This is the metal box at the left side of the machine, behind the display, It contains the firmware (HP custom masked ROMs), one board for a 9810 (2K words) and 2 boards (all boards are electrically identical, just with differnet ROMs fitted) for 4K words on the 9820. Thern there are 3 boards of control logic, including the memroy addres (M) and memoory data (T) shift registers. Finally, boards of RAM. Most machines use 1103 1K bit DRAMs. I am told that there is a version of the 9820 using 2102 static RAMs, I have never seen it (and I want to). Basically what I do when I get one of thse machines on the bench is : Dismantle it. Remove top cover, keyboard assembly, all the boards, memory box, printer, card reader, etc. I often take out the rear panel and backplane too, cna clean everyting up Refit the backplane and rear panel, reconenct the pwer swtich (on the keyboard assembly) and apply mains. The fan should run. Check the AC voltages on the PSU board connectors. Fit the PSU bvoards and power up again. The PSU cover is part of the heatsinking, but you an run the machine for testing without it. Check all PSU output votlages. Fit the CPU boards, the display and the mnemoty box (do not fit the printer, card reder/controlelr or the keyboard data cable at this point). Power up. You will not get a display. You should do, but there will be logic faults. Unfotruantely as the display is scnaned by the CPU (under control of the firmware) there could be a fault just about anywheere. And now for the fun part. Assuming you want to repari it rather than boardswap it, you now have to work through the logic. Ithink you need several thigns to do this, others re desirable Need : The scheamtics, a good logic probe, the CPU microcode sources [1], and a brain that knows how the darn thing should work. Desirable : A logic anaylser [1] Ask me nicely if you want this Once you've got it working, you'll need to sort out the mechanical side. The roller in the card reader will have died. The pritner platten probably has as well. The fromer turns to crumbly dust which si nto a problem the latter turns to a sticky black goo that gets everywhere. nyway, I can tell you how I repair them, but you need a good workshop. Others do it with hand tools, but I am not convinced it's as reliable. This is a blatant advert in 2 senses, but you might consider joining hpcc. The point being that there's an ongoing series of articles in the magazine entitled 'Repairing HP9800 Desktop Calcualtors' that might be useful. I suspect you can get last year's magazines to get the first 4 parts if you join and ask the membership secreatary. Please feel free to ask for any information on these great machines -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 15:19:34 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 21:19:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <20120516111713.GA3869@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at May 16, 12 06:17:14 am Message-ID: > A friend was just telling the story of how is four year old son climbed > up on top of the audio system subwoofer and pee'd into the large screen > TV that was operating nearby. It's a pity it wasn;'t a hot-chassis valved TV... That would have been interesting... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 15:25:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 21:25:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: challenge s with nonworking fan In-Reply-To: <1337179881.7549.7.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> from "Stefan Skoglund" at May 16, 12 04:51:21 pm Message-ID: > > ons 2012-05-16 klockan 02:12 +0200 skrev Stefan Skoglund: > > see subject. > > > > What can i do about this ? (The fan doesn't turn when applying power.) > > > > Before the fan started as soon as i pushed the start button (of course > with mains applied.) > So did the disks too. > Nothing of this happens now. Are you ssying the disks aren't running either? If so this sounds more like a PSU problem than a fan problem, I would start by measuring the votlage at the fan connector. The expected votlage should eb marked o nthe fan. Do you get any voltag at all between the fan terminals? What about the power conenctors for the disk drives? I woudl expect a +5V and +12V supply there, are you gettign both of them? Does anything happen when you press 'start'? > > I hope i was pretty clear about the type of machine (SGI Challenge > S) :-) My apologies, I didn't get that... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 15:30:49 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 21:30:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 16, 12 12:32:07 pm Message-ID: > We ran ours around 900V-2200V, but, yes, you want to test around > operational voltage to look for leaks. We found them - not usually by > brushing up against the cables, fortunately, but because bad cables > tripped the source crowbars (they would only permit a few mA before > shutting down a channel to prevent damage). I believe our issues were A good current limiting cirucit (or trip) is _essential_ on V power supplied. I indirectly owe my existnace to one, my father managed ot touch the output of an 10kV (or so) PSU he was using in his resarch with one hand while his other hand was resting on an earthed metal sink. Fortuately the supply was a Fluke, so the trip actually worekd properly. This was before I was born, so if it hadn't tripped, I would not be here... > > > But I do chekc the isulatuion fo mains > > transfiormers, fans, etc with one. It's better to find the leak.breakdown > > that way than by having the mains ps thotuh you (or worse, the logic boards!) > > I've not had issues in that area, but it's always good to know the > right tool for the job. I always test verything before I conenct it to the mains. it only takes a few minutes ,and I reckon my life is worth that (yes, OK< the safety earth should protect me, but I prefer that it doens't have to!). When I say 'everyything' I mean old and new. And I will tell you I've found many mroe dubious new things than classic computers... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 15:37:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 21:37:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <4FB3E534.3070609@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 16, 12 10:34:44 am Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > From the WikiP article: "It is incorrect to use the word "Megger" as a > > verb, noun or in the plural form. [36] It is an infringement of the > > trademark if used in reference to a product not made by the Megger > > Group or its subsidiaries" > > That's just normal trademark stuff that everyone ignores. It's really > not appropriate for the article, and should be removed. At most there > should be a simple notice of the trademark. I've just looked at a copy of 'Telephony' This is a serious textbook used by tleephone engieers over here back i nthe days of manual and Strowger (step-by-step) exchnages. In the chapeter 'Measuring apparatus and its use' there's a section headed 'PArt V -- The Megger and Bridge Megger'. It begins 'The Megger, which is the result of evolution from the original Evershed Ohmmeter consists of a direct current generator and moving double-coil instruemnt contained within a single case.' So misuse of this term is long-established (this book dates from 1932 I thin) and is not going to be easily reversed! -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 16 15:48:07 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 13:48:07 -0700 Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <20120516121104.J76048@shell.lmi.net> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <20A3A70F-BD7C-46F9-9FDD-52261A7B026E@gmail.com>, <20120516121104.J76048@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FB3B017.12173.FDE495@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 May 2012 at 12:12, Fred Cisin wrote: > So what is the correct generic term for a MEGA-Ohm meter? Should > "megger" have been permitted trademark registration? If the "you can't use a trademark as a noun" rule is really valid, how about "Realtor(tm)". Should my friend's business card say "Realtor(tm) Real Estate Agent"? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 16 16:16:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 17:16:24 -0400 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <20120516124731.P76048@shell.lmi.net> References: <1337125502.77272.YahooMailNeo@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4FB303E2.6040309@neurotica.com> <4FB31D3F.6080101@gorge.net> <4FB35318.4060801@neurotica.com> <201205160923.FAA13722@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FB3F698.6030300@neurotica.com> <20120516124731.P76048@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FB41928.9020900@neurotica.com> On 05/16/2012 03:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> If I can find a reasonable spouse, so can anyone. > > Does she have a sister? ;) Sadly not. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 16 16:30:38 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 14:30:38 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB32BD2.6090906@mail.msu.edu> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2C5C2.3060809@neurotica.com> <4FB2F08F.9070607@gmail.com> <4FB32BD2.6090906@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 9:23 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Piling onto this thread (sorry), I'd love to find a BA123 enclosure. ?I've > had this dream of building a "large" (for small values of large) MicroVAX or > LSI-11 system for awhile but one's never come my way; anyone out there have > one going spare? > > Thanks, > - Josh If I ever decide to get rid of my BA123 I'll keep you in mind, although that would probably be one of the last Q-bus systems I would hang on to. I was lucky and picked up one locally from http://www.3rtechnology.com a while back from one of their eBay listings. I didn't know exactly what I was getting and was pleasantly surprised to find a working RD54 and a CQD-200/TM inside so it was a pretty decent eBay purchase at the time. I maxed it out by replacing the KA630 with a KA655 and (2x) Dataram 32MB boards (it only has 4 Q22-CD slots so you need 3rd party memory to max out at 64MB), a VCB02 board set, DELQA, DHQ11, and CQD-220A. Slower than my much smaller and still slow 3100 M76, but seems much cooler. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed May 16 16:41:49 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 22:41:49 +0100 Subject: House move continues, more stuff available Message-ID: I hate moving house as much as I hate giving away DEC stuff :( The PDP 11/04 is still here with its RX01 pair, amazed that hasn't gone in a hurry even if it IS a non-worker There's a couple of big monitors too, both mono and I'm fairly sure one each from a VAXstation and VXT1200. I have VXTs too, base units. I have to be honest with myself that I'm not going to do anything with them. The usual haul of DEC books that everyone seems to have - microprocessor guides, terminals and printers, communications etc. At least 1 DECmate III w/keyboard, no screen though Battered looking Rainbow 100 LA210, maybe LA100 2 boxes of TRS80 software and manuals Apple II software and books. Not after any cash for this but you must collect from Cambs UK. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed May 16 16:47:54 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 17:47:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sudoku (was Re: PDP-11/93) In-Reply-To: <1FA1D415-27B0-408E-B6B6-5958C9345A89@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> <4FB3A7C8.9010708@compsys.to> <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1FA1D415-27B0-408E-B6B6-5958C9345A89@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201205162147.RAA24036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> although writing a program to solve Sudoku puzzles would also be a >>> fun effort. >> I found it so. Writing code to generate sudoku was fun too, [...] > My experience writing Sudoku solvers was for an algorithms class, > which was quite an interesting look at it. It was actually a rather > boring algorithm for solving, and the only part that was much > challenge was the data structure to bring the time down to O(n^6) > instead of O(n^7), where n is the order of the puzzle (e.g. 3 for a > normal 9x9 puzzle). I didn't do a full complexity analysis on mine, because it uses heuristics that mean any human-solvable puzzle is solved in so close to zero time that it's not worth improving it. (Specifically, most of the time there is at least one cell that can be filled in only one way for some reason, and the program knows at least four different possible such reasons; I've rarely seen puzzles needing a search tree with more than a dozen or so nodes, and many need no search at all, ie, there is no backtracking.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 16 16:49:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 17:49:16 -0400 Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB420DC.3030405@neurotica.com> On 05/16/2012 02:32 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > AVO is of course an acronym for Amps, Volts, Ohms. The AVOmeter was one > of the firrst multimeters in the UK (I think you can find them form the > 1930s, if not earlier). > > Old hands over here use the term 'AVO' (or AVOmeter) generically to refer > to a multimeter, even if not of that make. So if one fo them says 'Have > yuo got an AVO?' and you hand him a Fluke 87, he'll be happy (although > the company lawyers won't be :-)) Over here, one used to hear the term "VOM" (Volt-Ohm Meter), but now "DVM", "DMM" (whether it's "D" or not!) or "multimeter" is common. VTVM (Vacuum Tube Voltmeter, as distinct from a low-impedance device) was common up into my childhood in the 1970s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed May 16 17:00:04 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 18:00:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sudoku (was Re: PDP-11/93) In-Reply-To: <99F312C8-1D60-47EF-87BB-FFBB91F4B4C1@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> <4FB3A7C8.9010708@compsys.to> <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <99F312C8-1D60-47EF-87BB-FFBB91F4B4C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201205162200.SAA24206@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Writing code to generate sudoku was fun too, [...] > Where did you write it in and for what hardware? I'm of course, > hoping for assembly on the PDP-11 outputting to a terminal :) Sorry. :) It's all in C, or at least the nearly-but-not-quite-C most of my code is written in (it's C as extended by gcc with another extension of my own). It's not for any particular hardware, though it was not written with any particular thought given to systems where int is smaller than 32 bits, so it may not work well there. It is, however, a very unixy program in its I/O model; it is designed for use on a serial terminal or terminal emulator. I guess one out of three will have to do. :/ ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/games/sudoku/ contains what I have, in case you're interested. You likely want to look at /mouse/local/src/lcs-cvt/ as well, since I see on checking that the sudoku code does indeed use the extension of my own I mentioned above. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 16 17:28:38 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 18:28:38 -0400 Subject: Running 2BSD (was Re: PDP-11/93) Message-ID: On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 4:23 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I don't have anything faster/newer than an 11/53, but for what I do, >> it's enough. ?Mostly, I run RT-11 and a little 2BSD. >> >> -ethan > > Waht do you du on 2BSD? > > Regards, > > Holm(Unix guy and PDP11 Fan) Not a lot lately. Mostly, I noodle around and see what text games/apps I can port from the modern era back to a true 16-bit machine (with limited process memory space). Decades ago, before it was inexpensive to run UNIX at home, I set up an 11/24 with dual RL01s. ISTR spending $300 on the 11/24 and at least that much for more memory and a KT24 (I did not own the tape drive - I did the initial setup on work hardware then took my own packs home to run them). I went with Unibus because 22-bit Qbus peripherals were still quite current with current prices, and the 11/24 was, compared to other options (11/44, etc), inexpensive for a machine with enough disk and memory to run UNIX. At the time (mid 1980s), one could set up an ample RT-11 box for well under $1000. UNIX on DEC hardware took a lot more resources than $1000 could buy you in that era. Simultaneous with these experiments, I was running UNIX on VAXen at work - Ultrix 1.1 on an 11/730, Ultrix 2.mumble on a MicroVAX II, and before either of those, 4BSD and System V on an 11/750. My first experiences were on hardware that my employer paid well over $100K for. I was happy to have something to run on my own that was around 1% of that. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 16 17:53:21 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 15:53:21 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <4FB3E5C4.5010601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: At 2:28 PM -0400 5/16/12, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> >>> QED993 $175.00 >> >> Those are nice, but a lot of us hobbyists are more interested in running >> real DEC gear than in replacing a DEC CPU with an aftermarket CPU. > >I didn't recognize the QED993, so I googled it. Found this comment on >the v-c forum... > >"The QED 993 is a Xlinix FPGA emulation of a PDP-11. It does not >appear to be fully compatible with a J-11 processor. For example, it >does not appear to have any FP11 instruction support, which is assumed >to be present in a J-11. I haven't been able to get RSTS/E 10.1 or >2.11BSD to run on one I have so for me it is not as interesting as I >had hoped." > >I would personally consider a PDP-11 implementation that could not run >2BSD to be seriously broken for my uses (yes I know about 2.9BSD vs >2.11BSD and Split I&D, etc - that's just about picking the correct >PDP-11 type). I surely don't need an uber-fast PDP-11 to run RT-11. >I got along fine with an 11/23 system for professional software dev >for years - as long as the compiles take a handful of minutes or less, >it's fast enough. > >I don't have anything faster/newer than an 11/53, but for what I do, >it's enough. Mostly, I run RT-11 and a little 2BSD. > >-ethan Now that's interesting, and well worth knowing. I've thought about something like the QED993 in the past, but if it won't run RSTS/E 10.1, it's broken for me as well. Never have gotten 2.11BSD running on any of my PDP-11's. My /73 has SCSI drives in removable trays for booting RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+ and RSTS/E. IIRC, RSTS/E is the one OS I haven't figured out how to install off of CD-ROM, it can be 'touchy'. As an example, you can install RSTS/E from 4mm DAT, but DECnet/E wouldn't install unless I put it on a TK-50 first. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 16 17:54:26 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 15:54:26 -0700 Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB43022.80306@jwsss.com> I worked at a testing facility for testing high voltage interrupters (fuses, etc.) and we had a 13500 feed directly from a power plant. When we had to rewire the primary side of the facility, we'd pull a large high voltage breaker. Before reinserting it, it was always tested for megohm resistance before putting it back in circuit (open). A little resistance went a long way there. It was interesting having to use a Megger at one end, but for other blows of 6000 amp 600v fuses we had a Moh meter, which used a null meter to indicate the conductance. (hopefully I remembered all the right terms). Jim On 5/16/2012 12:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> "It is incorrect to use the word "Megger" as a verb, noun or in the >> plural form. [36] It is an infringement of the trademark if used in >> reference to a product not made by the Megger Group or its >> subsidiaries" >> >> So, I'm supposed to use it as what, an adjective or adverb? > Probably an adjective. 'A Megger high-voltage insulation tester'. Not > that anybody does. It may be incorrect but everybody (and most books too) > talk about 'A Megger' > > -tony > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 16 18:38:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 19:38:01 -0400 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB43A59.7070109@neurotica.com> On 05/16/2012 03:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> If I can find a reasonable spouse, so can anyone. > > OK, what's the trick?So far I've not managed to find a spouse, reasoanble > or not. Is this another regional thing? Doubtful. Just look where geek gals hang out. It did take me quite awhile, and I did deep-six more than one of the "you should get rid of all this stuff so I can move in and we can have a HOOOMMME!" types. But it can be done. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 16 18:55:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 19:55:12 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Makes In-Reply-To: References: <02b401cd321b$9de9bf60$d9bd3e20$@ntlworld.com>, <04ae01cd32fe$c7d10a20$6500a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FB43E60.1010708@neurotica.com> On 05/16/2012 02:34 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > I've used many over the years and have no complaint > on the tek scopes. > Still, my main home scope is a Leader 4 channel 100MHz > with delayed sweep. Other than the occational flakey > switch contact on the push buttons ( poke them a few times ), > the trigger works as good or better than any of the tektronix > I've use. Clearly better of any HP from that time frame. > I have found the occational need for a digital storage scope. > I've been using a old Nicolet Explorer III with the 204 input. > It works OK but these are really old and it pops a tantalum > cap every now and then. > They are kind of cool in that you can capture onto a disk > for latter looking at. The one I have has a 488 interface > as well. Many come wth none and some even have a RS232. > Should anyone get one, I do have a copy ( I mean copy ) > of the service manual. A needed addition to keep them > working. > They are kind of cool in that the scope runs on a 2900 > bit slice processor. They're also cool in that their Y resolution is insanely high for a digitizing scope. Most are 8 or 10 bits. Most of the Nicolets are 12 or 16. They're for very high-resolution, low-speed data analysis, and front-ending FFT analyzers and stuff like that. I've used them in a few different jobs, and I have (I think) two around here somewhere. One has a blown power supply; probably just a tantalum cap (Hi Dan!) as you mentioned. If you have a chance to scan that service manual, I'd love a copy. > I've used the storage scope to look at floppy data. I use > the delayed sweep on the Leader to trigger the storage. > Klunky but it works. I can pick out sectors that way. Ok that's really cool. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 16 18:58:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 19:58:21 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/04 in BA11-K Chassis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB43F1D.6030604@neurotica.com> On 05/16/2012 02:09 AM, Andrew Quinn wrote: > This machine has a controller for RK05 drives which takes 4 unibus > slots. It may have been the driver for the case choice. > > http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/Blog_PDP11_1.JPG > > http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/Blog_PDP11_2.JPG > > http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/Blog_PDP11_3.JPG Wow, that system looks practically spotless! And is that a LaserBus machine to the left of it, in the first picture? Looks like a VAX 7000 or AlphaServer 8400 chassis from the rear. And maybe the very corner of a VT52 at the far right? I'm drooling, here! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 16 19:02:41 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 17:02:41 -0700 Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <4FB3B017.12173.FDE495@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <20A3A70F-BD7C-46F9-9FDD-52261A7B026E@gmail.com>, <20120516121104.J76048@shell.lmi.net> <4FB3B017.12173.FDE495@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FB44021.7000007@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If the "you can't use a trademark as a noun" rule is really valid, > how about "Realtor(tm)". Should my friend's business card say > "Realtor(tm) Real Estate Agent"? If the National Association of Realtors really wanted to make sure that they protected the trademark properly they would require that, as well as using it as an adjective in all of their marketing materials. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed May 16 19:35:25 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:35:25 -0400 Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <4FB3B017.12173.FDE495@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <20A3A70F-BD7C-46F9-9FDD-52261A7B026E@gmail.com>, <20120516121104.J76048@shell.lmi.net> <4FB3B017.12173.FDE495@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <96CF56D4-F910-455D-8862-1F30AC4978CC@gmail.com> On May 16, 2012, at 4:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 May 2012 at 12:12, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> So what is the correct generic term for a MEGA-Ohm meter? Should >> "megger" have been permitted trademark registration? > > If the "you can't use a trademark as a noun" rule is really valid, > how about "Realtor(tm)". Should my friend's business card say > "Realtor(tm) Real Estate Agent"? Actually, yes, in a technical sense. However, that's certainly not how the company which administers the Realtor(tm) trademark actually markets their Realtors(tm). I think it's very much how we "should be" referring to "Xerox copies" and "Kleenex tissue" and "Styrofoam expanded polystyrene", but no one really does, which contributes to the dilution of the trademark. For example, you would still call it a "Remington shaver", though in some part that's so people don't think you're shaving with a shotgun. - Dave From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 16 19:39:04 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 17:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 9820A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 May 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > YEs, it's magnetic, yes it writes too. It puts 3 data tracks nad oen > timing track on the card, you put one end fo the card in, then turn it > round and put the other end in to get twcie the capacity (in other words > it only uised half the width of the card at a time. It's a pity you > didn't get any cards, those are not easy to find. I've noticed bags of blank cards showing up fairly regularly on Ebay. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed May 16 19:41:31 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:41:31 -0400 Subject: Sudoku (was Re: PDP-11/93) In-Reply-To: <201205162147.RAA24036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> <4FB3A7C8.9010708@compsys.to> <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1FA1D415-27B0-408E-B6B6-5958C9345A89@gmail.com> <201205162147.RAA24036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4D5941D4-0A64-4400-955C-A0FD9921A99C@gmail.com> On May 16, 2012, at 5:47 PM, Mouse wrote: > I didn't do a full complexity analysis on mine, because it uses > heuristics that mean any human-solvable puzzle is solved in so close to > zero time that it's not worth improving it. (Specifically, most of the > time there is at least one cell that can be filled in only one way for > some reason, and the program knows at least four different possible > such reasons; I've rarely seen puzzles needing a search tree with more > than a dozen or so nodes, and many need no search at all, ie, there is > no backtracking.) Mine didn't have a search tree; it just kept a list of possible values for its cells and removed them as the pre-filled values for the puzzle were entered (i.e. if that value were added to the cell's row, column or box). If a cell ever wound up with only one possibility, it would fill that value in, etc. For a properly deterministic puzzle (and I'm given to understand that a puzzle isn't "right" if it's not deterministic), this would result in an answer by the time the last pre-filled value was entered. Using "human" strategies, there might be faster ways. I'd be curious to see how it worked on non-deterministic puzzles (if indeed valid ones do exist). The actual class assignment is still online here; it's entertaining reading, if nothing else. His assignments from other years pose other interesting algorithmic challenges. http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~tadwhite/441.f05/project.html - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed May 16 19:44:47 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:44:47 -0400 Subject: House move continues, more stuff available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54990786-AD87-4CE4-BE10-5FB207DC723B@gmail.com> On May 16, 2012, at 5:41 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > I hate moving house as much as I hate giving away DEC stuff :( I must have missed the first post. I'd love to collect some of what you're offering, but I'm an ocean away. :-( - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 16 19:44:54 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 17:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sudoku (was Re: PDP-11/93) In-Reply-To: <201205162147.RAA24036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> <4FB3A7C8.9010708@compsys.to> <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1FA1D415-27B0-408E-B6B6-5958C9345A89@gmail.com> <201205162147.RAA24036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120516174121.G85734@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 16 May 2012, Mouse wrote: > I didn't do a full complexity analysis on mine, because it uses > heuristics that mean any human-solvable puzzle is solved in so close to > zero time that it's not worth improving it. But, if somebody else's Sudoku CREATION system can produce x thousands of puzzles per hour, you wouldn't want to start falling behind, would you? If I had one system for generating puzzles, and another for solving them, then I wouldn't need to spend any more of MY time on them! There are several obvious algorithms for solving the puzzles. But, I can't quite figure out how to generate them. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed May 16 19:47:27 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:47:27 -0400 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 16, 2012, at 3:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> If I can find a reasonable spouse, so can anyone. > > OK, what's the trick?So far I've not managed to find a spouse, reasoanble > or not. Is this another regional thing? I dunno. My wife found me playing D&D in her roommate's basement. I figure that's as good a filter as any; if she's OK with me playing fantasy games in a basement that smells like cat pee (we keep coming back to that, don't we?), she'd put up with whatever other nonsense I bring with me. In short, don't let anyone tell you that playing Dungeons and Dragons will ruin your social life. - Dave From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed May 16 20:09:26 2012 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 18:09:26 -0700 Subject: Running 2BSD (was Re: PDP-11/93) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB44FC6.7010500@mindspring.com> On 5/16/2012 3:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 4:23 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> I don't have anything faster/newer than an 11/53, but for what I do, >>> it's enough. Mostly, I run RT-11 and a little 2BSD. >>> >>> -ethan >>> >>> Waht do you du on 2BSD? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Holm(Unix guy and PDP11 Fan) > Not a lot lately. Mostly, I noodle around and see what text > games/apps I can port from the modern era back to a true 16-bit > machine (with limited process memory space). > > Decades ago, before it was inexpensive to run UNIX at home, I set up > an 11/24 with dual RL01s. ISTR spending $300 on the 11/24 and at > least that much for more memory and a KT24 (I did not own the tape > drive - I did the initial setup on work hardware then took my own > packs home to run them). I went with Unibus because 22-bit Qbus > peripherals were still quite current with current prices, and the > 11/24 was, compared to other options (11/44, etc), inexpensive for a > machine with enough disk and memory to run UNIX. At the time (mid > 1980s), one could set up an ample RT-11 box for well under $1000. > UNIX on DEC hardware took a lot more resources than $1000 could buy > you in that era. > > Simultaneous with these experiments, I was running UNIX on VAXen at > work - Ultrix 1.1 on an 11/730, Ultrix 2.mumble on a MicroVAX II, and > before either of those, 4BSD and System V on an 11/750. My first > experiences were on hardware that my employer paid well over $100K > for. I was happy to have something to run on my own that was around > 1% of that. > > -ethan Ran across this a few days ago: http://retrobsd.org/ The h/w is not 'classic' but the s/w is. When I get the SD card adapter installed on my PIC32 maybe I'll boot up 2.11BSD on it too. It would use a lot less power than my 11/44, and is a bit smaller... Don From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 16 20:15:56 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 01:15:56 +0000 Subject: Oscilloscope Makes In-Reply-To: <04ae01cd32fe$c7d10a20$6500a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On 5/15/12 5:55 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: > > I'd forget anything not tektronix for analog scopes. > >--- I respectfully disagree - I really like my HP 174xAs (I have both a 1740 and the storage-tube 1741). My Tek is a 561A, with single- and four-trace plug-ins. :-) -- Ian From chrise at pobox.com Wed May 16 20:49:05 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:49:05 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: <20120516111713.GA3869@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20120517014904.GB3869@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (05/16/2012 at 09:19PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > A friend was just telling the story of how is four year old son climbed > > up on top of the audio system subwoofer and pee'd into the large screen > > TV that was operating nearby. > > It's a pity it wasn;'t a hot-chassis valved TV... That would have been > interesting... Ya... some new fangled HDTV thing with probably max of 3.3V. Kids don't know how easy they have it now days... -- Chris Elmquist From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 16 20:59:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 21:59:10 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <4FB3E5C4.5010601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FB45B6E.7070700@neurotica.com> On 05/16/2012 06:53 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > IIRC, RSTS/E is the one OS I haven't figured out how to install off of > CD-ROM, it can be 'touchy'. As an example, you can install RSTS/E from > 4mm DAT, but DECnet/E wouldn't install unless I put it on a TK-50 first. Were you installing onto a volume larger than 512MB? If so, it was likely the disk capacity bug in the layered products installer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 16 21:28:12 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 21:28:12 -0500 Subject: House move continues, more stuff available In-Reply-To: <54990786-AD87-4CE4-BE10-5FB207DC723B@gmail.com> References: <54990786-AD87-4CE4-BE10-5FB207DC723B@gmail.com> Message-ID: dec books are any of them for the pdp8? the 11/04 stuff is temping but i have no room at this time i gotta do my rl02's before i aquire anymore > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 16 21:30:59 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 21:30:59 -0500 Subject: House move continues, more stuff available In-Reply-To: References: <54990786-AD87-4CE4-BE10-5FB207DC723B@gmail.com> Message-ID: o is the raimbow 100 working with monitor and kb?? regretting letting my raimbow go From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 16 21:57:46 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 19:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <4FB43A59.7070109@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "May 16, 12 07:38:01 pm" Message-ID: <201205170257.q4H2vkEo7340106@floodgap.com> > Doubtful. Just look where geek gals hang out. It did take me quite > awhile, and I did deep-six more than one of the "you should get rid of > all this stuff so I can move in and we can have a HOOOMMME!" types. But > it can be done. That's exactly the type I'm worried about, which is why I've started being very up front about my hobbies. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -- G. Marx - From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed May 16 22:12:17 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 23:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sudoku (was Re: PDP-11/93) In-Reply-To: <4D5941D4-0A64-4400-955C-A0FD9921A99C@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> <4FB3A7C8.9010708@compsys.to> <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1FA1D415-27B0-408E-B6B6-5958C9345A89@gmail.com> <201205162147.RAA24036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4D5941D4-0A64-4400-955C-A0FD9921A99C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201205170312.XAA28039@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> (Specifically, most of the time there is at least one cell that can >> be filled in only one way for some reason, [...]; I've rarely seen >> puzzles needing a search tree with more than a dozen or so nodes, >> and many need no search at all, ie, there is no backtracking.) > Mine didn't have a search tree; it just kept a list of possible > values for its cells and removed them as the pre-filled values for > the puzzle were entered (i.e. if that value were added to the cell's > row, column or box). If a cell ever wound up with only one > possibility, it would fill that value in, etc. For a properly > deterministic puzzle (and I'm given to understand that a puzzle isn't > "right" if it's not deterministic), this would result in an answer by > the time the last pre-filled value was entered. I'm not sure what you mean by "deterministic". But there are sudoku which have only one solution but for which that procedure does not work. I just ran my generator with the option that says to not exclude such cases and got (I've manually replaced three .s with -s and three more with *s; see below): +-------+-------+-------+ | 2 9 - | . . 1 | - 6 8 | | . 3 . | . . 2 | 4 - . | | . . 1 | . . . | . . . | +-------+-------+-------+ | 4 . * | . 6 9 | . . . | | . . 9 | . . . | 6 . . | | . . . | 2 5 . | . . 7 | +-------+-------+-------+ | . . . | . * . | 1 . . | | . . 6 | 3 * . | . 5 . | | 1 2 . | 8 . . | . 7 6 | +-------+-------+-------+ This has only one solution. However, if you just fill in forced cells (cells that can have been restricted to only one possibility by other numbers), you'll find that you get stuck after placing three numbers, the three spaces I've replaced with *s. Then my program resorts to trying possibilities and doing backtracking when it gets stuck. The three cells I've replaced with -s are the three cells where it's done this when it finds the solution. (They contain 4 in the leftmost one on the top row, 5 in the other one on the top row, and 9 in the one on the second row.) There's nothing nondeterministic here; the provided values do uniquely determine the values for all the other cells. The only thing that's interesting is _finding_ that unique solution. > The actual class assignment is still online here; it's entertaining > reading, if nothing else. [...] > http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~tadwhite/441.f05/project.html I find it interesting that his idea of "proper" sudoku includes no backtracking necessary, but does not mention symmetry - though all his sample puzzles do indeed have 180-degree rotational symmetry in the pattern of pre-filled cells - whereas I thought the symmetry was one of the things which made a proper sudoku but was unaware of any prohibition on backtracking. (And, yes, my program has no trouble with any of his examples, once the input format is converted, and resorts to tree search on only the one he doesn't say shouldn't need it.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed May 16 22:38:15 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 23:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sudoku (was Re: PDP-11/93) In-Reply-To: <20120516174121.G85734@shell.lmi.net> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> <4FB3A7C8.9010708@compsys.to> <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1FA1D415-27B0-408E-B6B6-5958C9345A89@gmail.com> <201205162147.RAA24036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120516174121.G85734@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201205170338.XAA28302@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I didn't do a full complexity analysis on mine, because it uses >> heuristics that mean any human-solvable puzzle is solved in so close >> to zero time that it's not worth improving it. > But, if somebody else's Sudoku CREATION system can produce x > thousands of puzzles per hour, you wouldn't want to start falling > behind, would you? If and when that becomes a concern, I may do a complexity analysis and possibly rewrite the solver. :-) > If I had one system for generating puzzles, and another for solving > them, then I wouldn't need to spend any more of MY time on them! Heh. > There are several obvious algorithms for solving the puzzles. But, I > can't quite figure out how to generate them. My generator works by starting with a completely blank grid. Then it runs the solver, slightly tweaked so that it bails as soon as it finds a second solution (rather than continuing to search for more). This can produce any of three results: `no solutions', `exactly one solution', or `multiple solutions'. If it returns `multiple solutions', then it drops in one, two, or four randomly-chosen numbers (how many depends on the symmetry setting, which can be set to produce no, 180-degree, or 90-degree symmetry, and, for odd sizes, on whether it picks the centre cell). If the solver then returns `no solutions', it removes them and tries again; if `multiple solutions', it leaves them there and loops, putting down more numbers. This is kept up until the solver returns `exactly one solution'. That's the basic generator. There are two flags: prune/noprune and fork/nofork. If the forking flag is set to nofork, then if the solver finds it has to do tree search, then `exactly one solution' gets is counted as if it were `multiple solutions'; if it's set to fork, then the code doesn't care whether the solver had to do tree search. If the prune flag is set to noprune, then the result is printed as soon as the above loop gets `exactly one solution'. If the prune flag is set to prune, then a postprocessing pass is performed: each number, pair of numbers, or quartet of numbers is tentatively removed and the solver run. This can return `multiple solutions' or `exactly one solution' (if it returns `no solution', the generator bugchecks, since, in the abstract, that can't happen). If it returns `multiple solutions', the tentatively removed number(s) go(es) back; if `exactly one solution', the removed number(s) stay(s) removed. This is repeated until every number, pair, or quartet has been tried, meaning that every number pair (or quarter or singleton) is necessary in the sense that removing it leads to a puzzle with multiple solutions. During this postprocessing pass, if the forking flag is set to nofork, then, again, one solution that required tree search is counted as if it were multiple solutions. This is computationally expensive. It turns out to be usably fast in practice; my program can crank out order-3 sudoku at some 20 to 25 per second on an 860MHz P-III, which is pretty modest hardware by today's standards. It gets much more expensive very fast as the size rises, though; generating a single order-4 on the same hardware rarely takes less than 5 seconds and can take multiple minutes if your luck is bad. (If it gets into a state where there are multiple solutions but it has to put down just the right number in just the right place to reduce it to only one solution, then it can sit there generating random numbers for a long time until it happens on the right ones. If I cared enough I might try to add code to improve performance in such cases - feeding back partial solution information from the solver to the number placement code would be one way to do this.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed May 16 22:48:08 2012 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:48:08 -0700 Subject: Rescue needed IBM S/34 & S/36s Bandon Oregon Message-ID: Spotted on the Oregon coast Craigslist...It is the other side of the state for me http://oregoncoast.craigslist.org/sys/3010480790.html >From the post... I have one S/34 with 5211 line printer with manuals. I have two S/36 - mini version with manuals. Need to be picked up on Friday, May 18 or Saturday, May 19. Or they will be junked. MAKE OFFER 520 six zero three 8107 Location: BANDON The S/34 is fairly large I think. The 5211 printer is a large band printer. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu May 17 00:48:04 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 22:48:04 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2C5C2.3060809@neurotica.com> <4FB2F08F.9070607@gmail.com> <4FB32BD2.6090906@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4FB49114.8000007@mail.msu.edu> On 5/16/2012 2:30 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 9:23 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Piling onto this thread (sorry), I'd love to find a BA123 enclosure. I've >> had this dream of building a "large" (for small values of large) MicroVAX or >> LSI-11 system for awhile but one's never come my way; anyone out there have >> one going spare? >> >> Thanks, >> - Josh > If I ever decide to get rid of my BA123 I'll keep you in mind, > although that would probably be one of the last Q-bus systems I would > hang on to. Aww, thanks :). > I was lucky and picked up one locally from > http://www.3rtechnology.com a while back from one of their eBay > listings. I didn't know exactly what I was getting and was pleasantly > surprised to find a working RD54 and a CQD-200/TM inside so it was a > pretty decent eBay purchase at the time. Nice! Also, I'm definitely going to have to drop by 3rtechnology's physical store sometime, just based on a couple of the pictures they have up. - josh > > I maxed it out by replacing the KA630 with a KA655 and (2x) Dataram > 32MB boards (it only has 4 Q22-CD slots so you need 3rd party memory > to max out at 64MB), a VCB02 board set, DELQA, DHQ11, and CQD-220A. > Slower than my much smaller and still slow 3100 M76, but seems much > cooler. > > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu May 17 00:53:48 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 22:53:48 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <4FB3E5C4.5010601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FB4926C.30001@mail.msu.edu> On 5/16/2012 11:28 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> QED993 $175.00 >> Those are nice, but a lot of us hobbyists are more interested in running >> real DEC gear than in replacing a DEC CPU with an aftermarket CPU. > I didn't recognize the QED993, so I googled it. Found this comment on > the v-c forum... > > "The QED 993 is a Xlinix FPGA emulation of a PDP-11. It does not > appear to be fully compatible with a J-11 processor. For example, it > does not appear to have any FP11 instruction support, which is assumed > to be present in a J-11. I haven't been able to get RSTS/E 10.1 or > 2.11BSD to run on one I have so for me it is not as interesting as I > had hoped." I think Glen Slick may have written that. I have one as well, purchased before the above was discovered; it seemed too good to be true -- a faster-than-11/93 CPU (w/4mb onboard) for ~$100 on eBay. And it mostly was, alas. The slim documentation Glen managed to find describes it as being "J-11 compatible," I'm not sure how one could claim that given that it doesn't support the FP instruction set at all. Supposedly there's an add-on board that adds that support, but I imagine those are in short supply. > > I would personally consider a PDP-11 implementation that could not run > 2BSD to be seriously broken for my uses (yes I know about 2.9BSD vs > 2.11BSD and Split I&D, etc - that's just about picking the correct > PDP-11 type). I surely don't need an uber-fast PDP-11 to run RT-11. > I got along fine with an 11/23 system for professional software dev > for years - as long as the compiles take a handful of minutes or less, > it's fast enough. Agreed. I haven't yet put the QED to good use (not quite sure what that would be at the moment -- anyone have suggestions for a good -11 OS (+ fun software) to run that doesn't use FP instructions (at all?). I've been thinking of recompiling all of 2.11BSD with FP emulation but that's a lot of work. Even the bootloader appears to use them. - Josh > > I don't have anything faster/newer than an 11/53, but for what I do, > it's enough. Mostly, I run RT-11 and a little 2BSD. > > -ethan > From als at retrotek.org Thu May 17 01:27:50 2012 From: als at retrotek.org (Anthony Stramaglia) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 02:27:50 -0400 Subject: Otrona Attache & Dynalogic Hyperion Message-ID: Howdy folks, Trying to strike a deal in buying an Otrona Attache and a Dynalogic Hyperion (or two) from different sellers. The buyers didn't provide any asking price and are looking for offers instead. I realize there's few of these machines around, but they're not TOO rare either. Can someone give me a good idea what would be a good, fair offer on each of these? They all appear to be in mint working condition. Thanks, Anthony From IanK at vulcan.com Thu May 17 01:38:43 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 06:38:43 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB49114.8000007@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 5/16/12 10:48 PM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > >> I was lucky and picked up one locally from >> http://www.3rtechnology.com a while back from one of their eBay >> listings. I didn't know exactly what I was getting and was pleasantly >> surprised to find a working RD54 and a CQD-200/TM inside so it was a >> pretty decent eBay purchase at the time. > >Nice! Also, I'm definitely going to have to drop by 3rtechnology's >physical store sometime, just based on a couple of the pictures they >have up. FWIW, I've bought stuff from 3r, visiting their physical store (only a few blocks from the Museum) to pick up my stuff. They're really nice folks. IMHO some of their pricing is, um, optimistic :-) but that's their pidgin. -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 17 01:59:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 02:59:08 -0400 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <201205170257.q4H2vkEo7340106@floodgap.com> References: <201205170257.q4H2vkEo7340106@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FB4A1BC.5060809@neurotica.com> On 05/16/2012 10:57 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Doubtful. Just look where geek gals hang out. It did take me quite >> awhile, and I did deep-six more than one of the "you should get rid of >> all this stuff so I can move in and we can have a HOOOMMME!" types. But >> it can be done. > > That's exactly the type I'm worried about, which is why I've started being > very up front about my hobbies. That's one mistake right there. "Hobbies" are things some women think they can simply "do away with". Tell them "this is what my life is about" and they'll take it a bit more seriously. (Assuming, of course, that this is indeed the case. It is for me.) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From holm at freibergnet.de Thu May 17 02:03:49 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 09:03:49 +0200 Subject: H9278 Disk distribution Paneel.. In-Reply-To: <4FB3FBE3.2090008@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20120516123851.GA20799@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FB3FBE3.2090008@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20120517070349.GB93571@beast.freibergnet.de> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 16/05/2012 13:38, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hi, > > someone wrote on this list, that the Disk distribution Paneel that is > > mounted on the Back of the Backplane from some 11's are faulty and > > will destroy data from the disks if two are connected. > > I cn't find the posting now... > > > > What kind of (wiring-) fault is this? Are there Fixes known? > > It's /not/ a wiring fault. The H9278 is the backplane for a BA23, and > the 34-way connectors are wired as a bus in the standard way. This > means if you plug in two drives, you must set them to be different drive > selects, as documented in several DEC manuals for that backplane/box. > > If you don't do that, but plug in two drives which are set to use the > same selects (eg both set to DS0, or both set to DS1) they will both be > selected at the same time, and that will cause trouble. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York Ahh, ok. So there is no real problem. They just routed that 34-way bus like it should be. The same is on the Floppy side, I prefer to set the right jumpers and be able to use 4 drives on a shugart bus as to have those ugly PeeCee modifications. You have just to know what you are doing, thats all. I do have an Z8000 (comaptible, east german) Unix machine, the same here. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu May 17 03:43:19 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 09:43:19 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: <4FB3E5C4.5010601@brouhaha.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <4FB3E5C4.5010601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <70AECC515F564A5DAF036DC222D5E048@Edicons.local> So am I but not at $2000 for one board. Sooner or later the price will come down. Meanwhile I now have an 11/94 in which everything else is original DEC that runs. If you restored cars you would not let one sit rusting because one original item was not available and a more recent but alternative one would make it go. I have over twenty DEC systems and they all run. I have two (CMD) non DEC SCSI controllers driving DEC RH18-A 2 Gigabyte SCSI drives. Not pure DEC but very representative of what you would have found when the systems were current technology. I would of course prefer totally DEC systems (God knows I sold enough of them) However reality at the time the systems were current was that mixed vendor solutions were the norm. In fact Digital Field Service actively pursued maintenance contracts on third party items. Choose carefully - The Primrose Path or Reality Road Regards ? Rod Smallwood (Digital Equipment Coporation 1975 - 1985) ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: 16 May 2012 18:37 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/93 Rod Smallwood wrote: > QED993 $175.00 Those are nice, but a lot of us hobbyists are more interested in running real DEC gear than in replacing a DEC CPU with an aftermarket CPU. From holm at freibergnet.de Thu May 17 03:43:14 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 10:43:14 +0200 Subject: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <4FB4A1BC.5060809@neurotica.com> References: <201205170257.q4H2vkEo7340106@floodgap.com> <4FB4A1BC.5060809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120517084314.GA97045@beast.freibergnet.de> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 05/16/2012 10:57 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> Doubtful. Just look where geek gals hang out. It did take me quite > >> awhile, and I did deep-six more than one of the "you should get rid of > >> all this stuff so I can move in and we can have a HOOOMMME!" types. But > >> it can be done. > > > > That's exactly the type I'm worried about, which is why I've started being > > very up front about my hobbies. > > That's one mistake right there. "Hobbies" are things some women think > they can simply "do away with". Tell them "this is what my life is > about" and they'll take it a bit more seriously. > > (Assuming, of course, that this is indeed the case. It is for me.) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA ...as I meet my GF (not married jet) for the first time I telled her, that I'm just another kind of asshole. She had an asshole before, he was in model train stuff .. all over the house, the garden and spent every penny for that. Now we live thogether for almost 11 years, nothing wrong with her, she loves me and my ugly stuff, and I love her :-).We don't want to change anything.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From tingox at gmail.com Wed May 16 06:15:32 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 13:15:32 +0200 Subject: IBM P/390 In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C398E@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C398E@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 2:46 AM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Anyone here interested in a PCI-based IBM P/390 board (Not E)? ?I've actually got two that I'm not using, and a PARCA > bus-and-tag board, and think that some other hobbyists should have a chance to acquire this stuff... Interesting. Do you need OS/2 on the host machine for this card to function? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From rwiker at gmail.com Wed May 16 07:13:47 2012 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 14:13:47 +0200 Subject: HP 9820A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Museum of HP Calculators (http://www.hpmuseum.org) has information about both of these, and there have been discussions about repairs on the forum there. The card reader is probably magnetic, but there appears to have been an optical card reader available as an option, too. Great find, anyway :-) On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Chris Pye wrote: > I was dropping off some rubbish today at the local council dump, and > noticed an old HP machine in the trailer next to me. I didn't even say > anything, I just stopped and stared at it and the guy asked if I wanted it. > When I said yeah, he replied with "shame you weren't a few minutes > earlier, I just chucked two others in the recycling bin and all the manuals > and tapes/cards are in the pit." > > Turned out to be an HP 9820A, and I managed to get the other 9820A and a > 9810A out of the recycling bin without anyone noticing. Unfortunately > couldn't retrieve anything else. > > Just wondering if there is anything in particular to watch out for when > powering up one of these for the first time other than normal power supply > checks? > > I (obviously) don't know much about these machines at all, but I'm > particularly mystified about how the built in card reader worked (is it > magnetic?).. Could it be written to as well? > > > Cheers, > Chris > > > > > > From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed May 16 10:57:04 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 16:57:04 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: H9278 Disk distribution Paneel.. Message-ID: <01OFK38A6QLY0000G2@beyondthepale.ie> > >Hi, >someone wrote on this list, that the Disk distribution Paneel that is >mounted on the Back of the Backplane from some 11's are faulty and >will destroy data from the disks if two are connected. >I cn't find the posting now... > >What kind of (wiring-) fault is this? Are there Fixes known? > There was a thread "RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems" in August / September 2011 where loss of low level format as result of two drives having the same drive select jumper (or possibly different drive select jumpers when the controller expected them to be the same) was discussed. Perhaps that was it? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From christopher1400 at gmail.com Wed May 16 12:58:51 2012 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 10:58:51 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <4FB3E684.6040602@brouhaha.com> References: <95794EB1-5AFC-491D-8F09-9814A920FD0A@gmail.com> <20120516111713.GA3869@n0jcf.net> <4FB3E684.6040602@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: If urine conducts electricity (I have no idea if it does), that really might hurt if it's a CRT. Honestly though, why would you have a sub woofer right next to a TV? I would be afraid of magnet field interfering with the TV if the speakers aren't shielded. From ve3auw at mnsi.net Wed May 16 13:09:45 2012 From: ve3auw at mnsi.net (Armin Auerswald) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 14:09:45 -0400 Subject: H720F psu References: <27fcb6a40e1fa101dae373dabfb71d4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <40F4FF344A4141C7B8D8F773EF725CDB@your8e1f7ff0d0> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Anderson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 17:01 Subject: Re: H720F psu Good Morning, Gentlemen: I have obtained a subscription to the Classic Computers discussion round-tabe about a week ago and 'listened' in, in order to get an idea of how things work, before I stick my head into it. My interest kind-of centers on Kaypro and I had hoped, to find some participants with whom I could chew the rag on that topic. - Perhaps I will. My current post is prompted by lots of notes on DEC and their power supplies. I have an H771-A, to which anyone is most welcome, who wants to pay the postage. Beside it, there is also a set of guts, without chassis: The board with heat sink and diodes etc., CV-transformer (Acme Electric, T-4-71354) with capacitor, two electrolytics (14,000 & 18,000 uF) and EMI filter. Ehhhh, just took another look, to see if that chassis is lying around in some corner. Negative. But I found another thing with a "digital" label on it: P/N G8018, called "Regulator Board". And four 8" drives: Qty.2 "digital" P.N. 70-13077-00 Rev L, Serial # WB268953-221 and WB270772-222 and Qty.2 "Shugart" Model 800-8 (my guess), Serial # B02488 and H32847. And two boards, which are probably controllers, are 8 x 15.75" and contain circuitry for steppers, photo sensors (index hole) and solenoids. one is marked "94VO digital TF-1". The stuff sits in Ontario, 30 miles East of Detroit, MI. If there is any interest, I'll send pictures. For direct contact: 519 798 5717. Friendly Greetings, Armin. From bigral at hotmail.com Thu May 17 02:19:07 2012 From: bigral at hotmail.com (Andriy Romanenko) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 10:19:07 +0300 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: <20120514112459.GA84325@beast.freibergnet.de> References: , , <20120513203257.GA25102@beast.freibergnet.de>, <4FB0202F.9070607@neurotica.com>, <20120514113324.nezygko1s0kow4cc@webmail.opentransfer.com>, <20120514112459.GA84325@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: > ...since they are cheap and avilable? > > Ebay:400182910730 > > Even this one is interesting: > > Ebay:160503454226 I found couple on-line shops located in Moscow here: http://www.elekont.ru/search/?q=1801%E2%EC and here: http://www.chipdip.ru/search.aspx?tmpl=results&searchtext=1801%D0%B2%D0%BC I don't know if they ship them abroad. thanks, Andrey From holm at freibergnet.de Thu May 17 03:45:38 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 10:45:38 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: <20120517014904.GB3869@n0jcf.net> References: <20120516111713.GA3869@n0jcf.net> <20120517014904.GB3869@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20120517084538.GB97045@beast.freibergnet.de> Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Wednesday (05/16/2012 at 09:19PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > A friend was just telling the story of how is four year old son climbed > > > up on top of the audio system subwoofer and pee'd into the large screen > > > TV that was operating nearby. > > > > It's a pity it wasn;'t a hot-chassis valved TV... That would have been > > interesting... > > Ya... some new fangled HDTV thing with probably max of 3.3V. Kids don't > know how easy they have it now days... > > -- > Chris Elmquist 3.3V .. until they are peeing in the SMPS. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jws at jwsss.com Thu May 17 04:19:42 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 02:19:42 -0700 Subject: IBM P/390 In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C398E@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <4FB4C2AE.7060703@jwsss.com> You need specific models of machines for the card to be hosted. The microcode for the system I think includes OS/2 It's been some time since I loaded and ran the microcode on a cold machine. There is also a way to run the cards hosted on an RS 6000 hosted by AIX. Jim On 5/16/2012 4:15 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 2:46 AM, Benjamin Huntsman > wrote: >> Anyone here interested in a PCI-based IBM P/390 board (Not E)? I've actually got two that I'm not using, and a PARCA >> bus-and-tag board, and think that some other hobbyists should have a chance to acquire this stuff... > Interesting. Do you need OS/2 on the host machine for this card to function? From pye at mactec.com.au Thu May 17 04:27:12 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 19:27:12 +1000 Subject: HP 9820A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8AE7A9D0-3DC7-4219-AC24-1C153F8939A9@mactec.com.au> On 17/05/2012, at 6:17 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Both are programmable, but have only a few built-in functions. Are there > any ROM modules in yours (look on top behind the display)? The maths ROM, > for example, adds logs, SIN/COS/TAN, etc. The machines can work without > any extra ROMs, so not having them is not a disaster. Yes all three machines have math pacs, and the 9810 has a printer alpha pac. > The 9820 will have a built-in thermal printer (I think it's standard on > that model), it's an option on the 9810 (Opt 004 IIRC). It is the same > unit, so if you have no pritner in the 9810 you could move one from one > of the 9820s into it. The 9810 has the printer option. >> >> I (obviously) don't know much about these machines at all, but I'm >> particularly mystified about how the built in card reader worked (is it >> magnetic?).. Could it be written to as well? > > YEs, it's magnetic, yes it writes too. It puts 3 data tracks nad oen > timing track on the card, you put one end fo the card in, then turn it > round and put the other end in to get twcie the capacity (in other words > it only uised half the width of the card at a time. It's a pity you > didn't get any cards, those are not easy to find. Yes it's a bummer I didn't get the cards, I could see them in the pit but had no way of getting to them. At least I managed to save the 3 machines.. > > You can get user manauls, the HP service manaul and some unofficial > scheamtics from http://www.hpmuseum.net/ Thanks, got that stuff now.. With that and your info I should hopefully be on my way. > > OI know a little abotu the insides of the machines. I think that's an understatement, and thanks for all your great (and in depth) information, I'm sure it's going to be a lot of help. Initially I think I will probably just clean up the 9810 and one 9820 and board swap (if necessary). I'll sort out the rest at a later date. I forgot to mention that I also salvaged a spare card cage with 4 boards in it, it's labeled "yellow card faulty", so it may be of some use. I had not planned on owning or using a machine like this, but now I have them I'm discovering how interesting they are and I'm keen to learn more and actually use one. I think it's the oldest gear I have, the next being some old CDC terminals that I've had since I was about 15.. > > > Please feel free to ask for any information on these great machines > I'm sure I will need more help at some stage. Chris From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu May 17 04:46:25 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 10:46:25 +0100 Subject: House move continues, more stuff available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Definitely interested in some of these items. The 11/04 is of interest to me as is the DECmate and the Rainbow. LA100 too. Away from home at the moment, can we discuss later? Got any pics of the items? Regards Rob On 16 May 2012 22:41, Adrian Graham wrote: > I hate moving house as much as I hate giving away DEC stuff :( > > The PDP 11/04 is still here with its RX01 pair, amazed that hasn't gone in > a > hurry even if it IS a non-worker > There's a couple of big monitors too, both mono and I'm fairly sure one > each > from a VAXstation and VXT1200. I have VXTs too, base units. I have to be > honest with myself that I'm not going to do anything with them. > The usual haul of DEC books that everyone seems to have - microprocessor > guides, terminals and printers, communications etc. > At least 1 DECmate III w/keyboard, no screen though > Battered looking Rainbow 100 > LA210, maybe LA100 > 2 boxes of TRS80 software and manuals > Apple II software and books. > > Not after any cash for this but you must collect from Cambs UK. > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu May 17 05:44:52 2012 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 11:44:52 +0100 Subject: House move continues, more stuff available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rob, No pics but the kit is in the condition you'd expect it to be in for its age :) A On 17 May 2012 10:46, Jarratt RMA wrote: > Definitely interested in some of these items. The 11/04 is of interest to > me as is the DECmate and the Rainbow. LA100 too. > > Away from home at the moment, can we discuss later? Got any pics of the > items? > > Regards > > Rob > > On 16 May 2012 22:41, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> I hate moving house as much as I hate giving away DEC stuff :( >> >> The PDP 11/04 is still here with its RX01 pair, amazed that hasn't gone in >> a >> hurry even if it IS a non-worker >> There's a couple of big monitors too, both mono and I'm fairly sure one >> each >> from a VAXstation and VXT1200. I have VXTs too, base units. I have to be >> honest with myself that I'm not going to do anything with them. >> The usual haul of DEC books that everyone seems to have - microprocessor >> guides, terminals and printers, communications etc. >> At least 1 DECmate III w/keyboard, no screen though >> Battered looking Rainbow 100 >> LA210, maybe LA100 >> 2 boxes of TRS80 software and manuals >> Apple II software and books. >> >> Not after any cash for this but you must collect from Cambs UK. >> >> -- >> Adrian/Witchy >> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >> collection? >> >> >> -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From holm at freibergnet.de Thu May 17 05:57:07 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 12:57:07 +0200 Subject: homebrew PDP-11 using ancient USSR chip In-Reply-To: References: <20120514112459.GA84325@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120517105707.GA3556@beast.freibergnet.de> Andriy Romanenko wrote: > > > > ...since they are cheap and avilable? > > > > Ebay:400182910730 > > > > Even this one is interesting: > > > > Ebay:160503454226 > > I found couple on-line shops located in Moscow here: http://www.elekont.ru/search/?q=1801%E2%EC > and here: http://www.chipdip.ru/search.aspx?tmpl=results&searchtext=1801%D0%B2%D0%BC > I don't know if they ship them abroad. > > thanks, > > Andrey > Just for interest, what's the current exchange rate of the Rubel to US$ or Euro? I had something like 1:13 for Euro/Rubel in the head, but than those CPUs aren't really cheap.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu May 17 06:24:25 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 07:24:25 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/35 power supply woes In-Reply-To: References: <95794EB1-5AFC-491D-8F09-9814A920FD0A@gmail.com> <20120516111713.GA3869@n0jcf.net> <4FB3E684.6040602@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3EF0E77C-A5BC-4CE4-B450-4513F75B2065@gmail.com> On May 16, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > If urine conducts electricity (I have no idea if it does), that really > might hurt if it's a CRT. > > Honestly though, why would you have a sub woofer right next to a TV? I > would be afraid of magnet field interfering with the TV if the speakers > aren't shielded. If it's an LCD TV, you don't have to worry about that. - Dave From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu May 17 06:27:56 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 12:27:56 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/93 In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <4FB3E5C4.5010601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <0D3C2273934043C6818A858982ED49A8@Edicons.local> It seems to run RSX or RT11 just fine. When its choice between $2000, $175 or an 11/94 in as new condition not running at all then none of those minor technical shortcomings are an issue. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 16 May 2012 19:29 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/93 On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> QED993 $175.00 > > Those are nice, but a lot of us hobbyists are more interested in running > real DEC gear than in replacing a DEC CPU with an aftermarket CPU. I didn't recognize the QED993, so I googled it. Found this comment on the v-c forum... "The QED 993 is a Xlinix FPGA emulation of a PDP-11. It does not appear to be fully compatible with a J-11 processor. For example, it does not appear to have any FP11 instruction support, which is assumed to be present in a J-11. I haven't been able to get RSTS/E 10.1 or 2.11BSD to run on one I have so for me it is not as interesting as I had hoped." I would personally consider a PDP-11 implementation that could not run 2BSD to be seriously broken for my uses (yes I know about 2.9BSD vs 2.11BSD and Split I&D, etc - that's just about picking the correct PDP-11 type). I surely don't need an uber-fast PDP-11 to run RT-11. I got along fine with an 11/23 system for professional software dev for years - as long as the compiles take a handful of minutes or less, it's fast enough. I don't have anything faster/newer than an 11/53, but for what I do, it's enough. Mostly, I run RT-11 and a little 2BSD. -ethan From tsg at bonedaddy.net Thu May 17 07:20:00 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 08:20:00 -0400 Subject: Megger In-Reply-To: <96CF56D4-F910-455D-8862-1F30AC4978CC@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <20A3A70F-BD7C-46F9-9FDD-52261A7B026E@gmail.com> <20120516121104.J76048@shell.lmi.net> <4FB3B017.12173.FDE495@cclist.sydex.com> <96CF56D4-F910-455D-8862-1F30AC4978CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120517122000.GP4493@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * David Riley [120516 21:52]: [..] > I think it's very much how we "should be" referring to "Xerox > copies" and "Kleenex tissue" and "Styrofoam expanded polystyrene", > but no one really does, which contributes to the dilution of > the trademark. For example, you would still call it a > "Remington shaver", though in some part that's so people don't > think you're shaving with a shotgun. Or a typewriter... From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu May 17 07:59:49 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 08:59:49 -0400 Subject: Sudoku (was Re: PDP-11/93) In-Reply-To: <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to> <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> <4FB3A7C8.9010708@compsys.to> <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4FB4F645.1040507@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/05/12 1:09 PM, Mouse wrote: >> [...] seems much more satisfying than having solved a Sudoku puzzle - >> although writing a program to solve Sudoku puzzles would also be a >> fun effort. > > I found it so. Writing code to generate sudoku was fun too, and gave Do you publish your programs online? --Toby > me an endless supply of sudoku that did not exhibit the patterns so > many newsstand books' sudoku do. It also gave me order-4 sudoku (where > the usual sudoku is order-3, ie, a 3x3 grid of 3x3 grids, this is a 4x4 > grid of 4x4 grids). It could give me higher orders too, but even > order-4 is a bit too large for me to really enjoy solving it by hand. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 17 08:31:26 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 06:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM P/390 In-Reply-To: <4FB4C2AE.7060703@jwsss.com> from jim s at "May 17, 12 02:19:42 am" Message-ID: <201205171331.q4HDVQiu14352634@floodgap.com> > You need specific models of machines for the card to be hosted. The > microcode for the system I think includes OS/2 It's been some time > since I loaded and ran the microcode on a cold machine. > > There is also a way to run the cards hosted on an RS 6000 hosted by AIX. I wonder if it would work on the Apple Network Server then. What were the steps? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Prediction is very difficult, especially ... about the future. -- Niels Bohr From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 17 08:33:55 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 06:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dating and things you enjoy was Re: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <4FB4A1BC.5060809@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "May 17, 12 02:59:08 am" Message-ID: <201205171333.q4HDXt1C14876774@floodgap.com> > > > Doubtful. Just look where geek gals hang out. It did take me quite > > > awhile, and I did deep-six more than one of the "you should get rid of > > > all this stuff so I can move in and we can have a HOOOMMME!" types. But > > > it can be done. > > > > That's exactly the type I'm worried about, which is why I've started being > > very up front about my hobbies. > > That's one mistake right there. "Hobbies" are things some women think > they can simply "do away with". Tell them "this is what my life is > about" and they'll take it a bit more seriously. True, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder what percentage of those women who self-select as geeks, etc., fall into the "I can just do away with those bad habits [sic] of his" category. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The moon may be smaller than the Earth, but it's farther away. ------------- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 17 08:38:46 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 06:38:46 -0700 Subject: Sudoku (was Re: PDP-11/93) In-Reply-To: <4D5941D4-0A64-4400-955C-A0FD9921A99C@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C2F52@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB29BEC.3010103@neurotica.com>, <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3146@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB2EA0B.6060203@compsys.to>, <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C3B10@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <4FB31F13.2070500@neurotica.com> <4FB3A7C8.9010708@compsys.to>, <201205161709.NAA19104@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <1FA1D415-27B0-408E-B6B6-5958C9345A89@gmail.com>, <201205162147.RAA24036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <4D5941D4-0A64-4400-955C-A0FD9921A99C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi I've been playing with a determinstic solver off and on for a couple of years. It is at a point now that a really hard puzzle can stop it. The worst are those puzzles that don't have single solutions. I have a little hand held puzzle generator but stopped using it when I found some had multiple solutions. I don't know of any way of solviing multiple solution games without back tracking. Is there such a way? I wonder how many unique puzzles there are? Just swapping numbers is not unique. It has to be unique patterns and no rotations. Dwight From holm at freibergnet.de Thu May 17 08:40:19 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 15:40:19 +0200 Subject: Emulex UC07 Problems... Message-ID: <20120517134019.GB12297@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, does someone has a newer firmware Version for the UC07 as G143R? I have a double UC07 in my 11/83 and have problems to get Disks with 4Gbytes working. (DCAS-34330 50 pin). I have an Conner CFP2107S wich has 2 Gigabytes, I can split the drive and successfully format the resulting drives with XXDP or RT11. When I connect the 4GB Disks, even when I fake the geometry to 2Gbytes, the controller successfully formts and thest the drives, but an init du0: from updat in xxdp doesn't come back. same with mdup.mu from an RT11 tape. It simply hangs. Disk space isn't the concern why I'm trying to use the IBM drives, those disk are quiet comparing to the conner 2107s, that is what I want. Any Ideas? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu May 17 08:57:49 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 14:57:49 +0100 Subject: dating and things you enjoy was Re: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <201205171333.q4HDXt1C14876774@floodgap.com> References: <4FB4A1BC.5060809@neurotica.com> <201205171333.q4HDXt1C14876774@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > True, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder what percentage of those women who > self-select as geeks, etc., fall into the "I can just do away with those bad > habits [sic] of his" category. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QesT67dsRbg -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better? Amelia: Yeah. Doctor: Everything's going to be fine. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 17 09:15:32 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 10:15:32 -0400 Subject: IBM P/390 In-Reply-To: <4FB4C2AE.7060703@jwsss.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C398E@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB4C2AE.7060703@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4FB50804.80000@gmail.com> jim s wrote: > You need specific models of machines for the card to be hosted. The > microcode for the system I think includes OS/2 It's been some time since > I loaded and ran the microcode on a cold machine. > > There is also a way to run the cards hosted on an RS 6000 hosted by AIX. It actually pretty much works behind any PC that can run OS/2 and has a secondary PCI bus behind any of several specific models of PCI-PCI bridge. It also works just fine on AIX 4.3.3, but when Dave McGuire and I were hacking on it last time, we couldn't get the code to work on 5.1. Peace... Sridhar > On 5/16/2012 4:15 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: >> On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 2:46 AM, Benjamin Huntsman >> wrote: >>> Anyone here interested in a PCI-based IBM P/390 board (Not E)? I've >>> actually got two that I'm not using, and a PARCA >>> bus-and-tag board, and think that some other hobbyists should have a >>> chance to acquire this stuff... >> Interesting. Do you need OS/2 on the host machine for this card to >> function? From microcode at zoho.com Thu May 17 09:18:15 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 14:18:15 +0000 Subject: dating and things you enjoy was Re: VCF East question In-Reply-To: <201205171333.q4HDXt1C14876774@floodgap.com> References: <4FB4A1BC.5060809@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "May 17, 12 02:59:08 am" <201205171333.q4HDXt1C14876774@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1621508922-1337264240-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-686733603-@b1.c1.bise3.blackberry> Every woman falls into that category or she doesn't get married ;-) -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 06:33:55 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: dating and things you enjoy was Re: VCF East question > > > Doubtful. Just look where geek gals hang out. It did take me quite > > > awhile, and I did deep-six more than one of the "you should get rid of > > > all this stuff so I can move in and we can have a HOOOMMME!" types. But > > > it can be done. > > > > That's exactly the type I'm worried about, which is why I've started being > > very up front about my hobbies. > > That's one mistake right there. "Hobbies" are things some women think > they can simply "do away with". Tell them "this is what my life is > about" and they'll take it a bit more seriously. True, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder what percentage of those women who self-select as geeks, etc., fall into the "I can just do away with those bad habits [sic] of his" category. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The moon may be smaller than the Earth, but it's farther away. ------------- From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu May 17 09:45:12 2012 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 09:45:12 -0500 Subject: IBM P/390 In-Reply-To: <4FB50804.80000@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C398E@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB4C2AE.7060703@jwsss.com> <4FB50804.80000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57F6C28F-863E-467B-98CE-6A5A1E155BB4@lunar-tokyo.net> On May 17, 2012, at 9:15 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > It actually pretty much works behind any PC that can run OS/2 and has a secondary PCI bus behind any of several specific models of PCI-PCI bridge. > > It also works just fine on AIX 4.3.3, but when Dave McGuire and I were hacking on it last time, we couldn't get the code to work on 5.1. I wonder how hard it would be to write a Linux driver for it so it could be run on any random hardware with a PCI bus. "Yo dawg, we herd you like Linux, so we put a CPU in your CPU so you can hack while you hack!" From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 17 10:07:31 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 08:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM P/390 In-Reply-To: <4FB50804.80000@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "May 17, 12 10:15:32 am" Message-ID: <201205171507.q4HF7V1d14024880@floodgap.com> > > You need specific models of machines for the card to be hosted. The > > microcode for the system I think includes OS/2 It's been some time since > > I loaded and ran the microcode on a cold machine. > > > > There is also a way to run the cards hosted on an RS 6000 hosted by AIX. > > It actually pretty much works behind any PC that can run OS/2 and has a > secondary PCI bus behind any of several specific models of PCI-PCI bridge. > > It also works just fine on AIX 4.3.3, but when Dave McGuire and I were > hacking on it last time, we couldn't get the code to work on 5.1. What about AIX 4.1.5? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I cannot see without closing my eyes -- Sarah Masen, "75 Grains of Sand" --- From ploopster at gmail.com Thu May 17 10:20:34 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 11:20:34 -0400 Subject: IBM P/390 In-Reply-To: <201205171507.q4HF7V1d14024880@floodgap.com> References: <201205171507.q4HF7V1d14024880@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FB51742.3060609@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> You need specific models of machines for the card to be hosted. The >>> microcode for the system I think includes OS/2 It's been some time since >>> I loaded and ran the microcode on a cold machine. >>> >>> There is also a way to run the cards hosted on an RS 6000 hosted by AIX. >> >> It actually pretty much works behind any PC that can run OS/2 and has a >> secondary PCI bus behind any of several specific models of PCI-PCI bridge. >> >> It also works just fine on AIX 4.3.3, but when Dave McGuire and I were >> hacking on it last time, we couldn't get the code to work on 5.1. > > What about AIX 4.1.5? I think probably yes, but I have never tried it for myself. Peace... Sridhar From dm561 at torfree.net Thu May 17 10:19:58 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 11:19:58 -0400 Subject: Kaypro (was H720F psu) References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 14:09:45 -0400 From: "Armin Auerswald" Good Morning, Gentlemen: ...My interest kind-of centers on Kaypro and I had hoped, to find some participants with whom I could chew the rag on that topic. - Perhaps I will. ...(I'm) in Ontario, 30 miles East of Detroit, MI. Friendly Greetings, Armin. ---------------------------------------------------------- Welcome! You might also check the Vintage Computer Forum, some Kaypro folks hang out there. And if you're ever in Toronto and want another one, look me up. mike VE3IPK From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu May 17 10:36:14 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 16:36:14 +0100 Subject: IBM P/390 In-Reply-To: <4FB50804.80000@gmail.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E70C3C398E@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <4FB4C2AE.7060703@jwsss.com> <4FB50804.80000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FB51AEE.50701@gmail.com> On 17/05/2012 15:15, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > jim s wrote: >> You need specific models of machines for the card to be hosted. The >> microcode for the system I think includes OS/2 It's been some time since