From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 1 00:05:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 01:05:01 -0400 Subject: CDP1802? In-Reply-To: <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com> On 05/31/2012 02:51 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Hey you all!!! Just got a new processor, CDP1802 > > What interesting can I do with that? :o) Great! This is a really nice ELF implementation: http://www.elf-emulation.com/microelf.html -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Jun 1 01:15:11 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 23:15:11 -0700 Subject: DecTalk Express debugging? In-Reply-To: References: <4FB95F4C.2020707@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4FC85DEF.3070905@mail.msu.edu> On 5/20/2012 11:00 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> This unit has a rechargable ni-cad battery in it (that I'm pretty sure no >> longer holds a charge) and I'm curious whether a functioning battery is >> required for normal operation. > I have an express also (definitely on-topic: old, DEC, cool :) I > _think_ it should work off of the AC adapter, regardless of the > condition of the internal battery. In my case, the power connector > was damaged, so I wired in a 9v battery connector where the NiCd > connects. The DECTalk works fine off of the alkaline battery. It > should announce itself a couple seconds after turning it on with the > wheel-switch. I haven't used it any beyond testing, so I don't know > how much life you'll get running on a 9v but you may want to try that > configuration with yours just to see if the DECTalk is otherwise > working or not. > Thanks for the information and the suggestions. I was playing around with it again last night and the fuse blew again. I can't find a schematic or anything useful to aid in tracking down the fault, alas. But, fortunately the place I purchased it from has kindly offered a refund, and they have a couple other DecTalks in stock, so I'll be sending it back for a replacement. Maybe I'll have better luck with that one :). Thanks again, Josh From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 01:28:18 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 23:28:18 -0700 Subject: IBM 973 ? In-Reply-To: <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com> References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FC86102.3010803@gmail.com> What is this thing ? Really cool looking. http://www.ebay.com/itm/290721494251 From iamcamiel at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 01:43:29 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 08:43:29 +0200 Subject: Philips P800 family minis In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd3f0d$cc5045f0$64f0d1d0$@camicom.com> Message-ID: On 5/31/12, Tony Duell wrote: > As for the cartridge drive, I'd take the cover off before driving home > with it) and inspect the positioner). Try _very_ carefully_ to pull the > carriage towards the speindle. If it will move (and don't pull it far > enough to load the heads!), it needs to be restrained. If there's a > locking bracket it'll be quite obvious, you may have to remove it, turn > it round and screw it back in place, for example. >From the pictures on eBay, the disc drives look like they are the P824 type mentioned in the P856 manuals on Theo Engels' site (http://www.theoengel.nl/P800/P856-P857_System_Handbook_p4.pdf). This manual mentions that the cartridges are IBM 5440 compatible. The drive pictured in the book looks very similar to an IBM 5444 (with the big clamps on each side). Any moving procedures for these drives that anyone's interested in? Disk alignment issues I should be aware of? > As for powering them up, again, nothing special. The noraml visual > inspection, then test the PSUs on dummy load is all you need to do. That's the usual routine. I'm figuring these have heavy linear power supplies, right? > These machines vary a bit in the CPU design. The P850 is hard-wired > logic. The P855, 852, 856, etc are microcoded TTL (I think). The P851 is > custom Philips bitslice ICs. The P854 is AMD2900 bitslice. The P853 (I > think) is a custom single-chip LSI implementation of the processor. I think Jos correctly identified the blinkenlights one as a P856 or P857. The other two look like they might be P854's. Will post actual model numbers and card id's once I've picked them up. I also need to find a way to haul these upstairs... I don't think my wife will be all that thrilled to have them sit in the living room for a prolongued period. Cheers, Camiel From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jun 1 03:36:42 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 10:36:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Resistors (was: Software for OCR'ing paper tape?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 May 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> I've used 10M resistors, not often, mind you, but I have. I think > > I think the larged 'normal looking' resistor with coloured bands that > I've seen/used was 22M, Maybe 56N The Anita Mk VIII is full of 22M and 18M resistors, mostly on the digit modules. They are used in conjunction with the cold cathode relais tubes. The problem with those old carbon film resistors is that they increase their resistance when they age, so at the end you have to replace all those in an Anita that have gone over 25M, otherwise you'll have a very non-deterministically working machine. (Next problem with the Anita are the selenium diodes in the logic, a nightmare...) Christian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 04:30:26 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 06:30:26 -0300 Subject: CDP1802? References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook> TIL311 displays? I pass =) These displays are expensive... But I'll take a look at the design and maybe redesign the display part :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 2:05 AM Subject: Re: CDP1802? > On 05/31/2012 02:51 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Hey you all!!! Just got a new processor, CDP1802 >> >> What interesting can I do with that? :o) > > Great! This is a really nice ELF implementation: > > http://www.elf-emulation.com/microelf.html > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From rickb at bensene.com Fri Jun 1 09:09:59 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 07:09:59 -0700 Subject: IBM 973 ? In-Reply-To: <4FC86102.3010803@gmail.com> References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com> <4FC86102.3010803@gmail.com> Message-ID: mc68010 wrote: > > What is this thing ? Really cool looking. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/290721494251 This looks to be the operator's console from an IBM 610 Auto-point computer. There is a lot more to this machine than this device. By itself, the device isn't really useful, but it is indeed a beautiful display piece. IBM called the 610 a computer in marketing materials, but internally, it was known as a "Personal Calculator". I consider the machine programmable calculator rather than a computer, because it isn't a stored program machine. Programs were read step at a time from paper tape, and a magnetic drum was used for numeric data storage (not program steps). See http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/610.html for more information. Too bad the rest of it isn't available - it is definitely a very cool machine. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 09:35:35 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 15:35:35 +0100 Subject: Acorn Archimedes at 25 Message-ID: Interesting retrospective piece on The Register. (Not one of mine!) http://www.reghardware.com/2012/06/01/acorn_archimedes_is_25_years_old/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 1 14:39:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 15:39:04 -0400 Subject: CDP1802? In-Reply-To: <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook> References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com> <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FC91A58.60202@neurotica.com> On 06/01/2012 05:30 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > TIL311 displays? I pass =) These displays are expensive... > > But I'll take a look at the design and maybe redesign the display > part :) Heck, just use LEDs, man. The switches are binary, I think the LEDs should be too! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 15:48:13 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 16:48:13 -0400 Subject: CDP1802? In-Reply-To: <4FC91A58.60202@neurotica.com> References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com> <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC91A58.60202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 06/01/2012 05:30 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> ? ?TIL311 displays? I pass =) These displays are expensive... >> >> ? ?But I'll take a look at the design and maybe redesign the display >> part :) > > ?Heck, just use LEDs, man. ?The switches are binary, I think the LEDs > should be too! By all means you can use individual LEDs, but I got my start on the 1802 as a lad and I always loved the dot-matrix hex digits. Yes, the TIL311s can be expensive - they were expensive in the 1970s too. Great processor. Fun times! -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 16:00:47 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 18:00:47 -0300 Subject: CDP1802? References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com> <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC91A58.60202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0eb501cd4039$a40fe0f0$6500a8c0@tababook> I love the visual of the TIL311, but they are hellish expensive in Brazil. I'd prefer to use normal digits instead... :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 5:48 PM Subject: Re: CDP1802? > On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Dave McGuire > wrote: >> On 06/01/2012 05:30 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> TIL311 displays? I pass =) These displays are expensive... >>> >>> But I'll take a look at the design and maybe redesign the display >>> part :) >> >> Heck, just use LEDs, man. The switches are binary, I think the LEDs >> should be too! > > By all means you can use individual LEDs, but I got my start on the > 1802 as a lad and I always loved the dot-matrix hex digits. Yes, the > TIL311s can be expensive - they were expensive in the 1970s too. > > Great processor. Fun times! > > -ethan > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 1 15:53:54 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 21:53:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Philips P800 family minis In-Reply-To: from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jun 1, 12 08:43:29 am Message-ID: > > >From the pictures on eBay, the disc drives look like they are the P824 > type mentioned in the P856 manuals on Theo Engels' site Unfortuantely I know very little about these drives. I certianly don't have the technical manual or anything... > (http://www.theoengel.nl/P800/P856-P857_System_Handbook_p4.pdf). This > manual mentions that the cartridges are IBM 5440 compatible. The drive > pictured in the book looks very similar to an IBM 5444 (with the big > clamps on each side). Any moving procedures for these drives that > anyone's interested in? Disk alignment issues I should be aware of? I think you need to ispect them and find if the cariage needs locking and if so, how to do it. Oh, and if possible, remvoe the disk pack from the drive before moving it too. As for alignemtn, don't dismantle the heads or positioner unless you have the alignment pack, and don't fiddle with any presets or repalce components in the servo circuit unless you have to. Otherwise no real problems/ > > > As for powering them up, again, nothing special. The noraml visual > > inspection, then test the PSUs on dummy load is all you need to do. > > That's the usual routine. I'm figuring these have heavy linear power > supplies, right? Not always... The P850 PSU is a big linear thing (I seem to recall paralleled 2N3055s as pass transistors). I can't comment on the P856 one, I've never seen that series of machines The P851 has a mains trasformer follwoed by regualtor PCBs. Most are linear, I think the 5V oen might be a switching regulator, I would have to check The P854 supply is a full swithcer (or maybe 2 of them). I have the manaul for that, complete with all the waveforms for the chopper circuit. And the wonderful instructions to run the supply off an isolating transformer, but if that's not possible to disconenct the maisn werth wire in the 'scope mains plug and take great care. Err, yes. Having a 'scope floating at mains voltage is not the sort of thing I want to do... There may also be battery backup for the memory suppkies in later machines. I know the P851 (whcih I don;t think you're getting) had an optiuonal PCB carrying 12 NiCd cells and not much else. THe P854 has an option (?) to fit a NiCd pack inside one of the PSUs. You wil lwant ot ispect this for leaking cells, etc. Let me know what you have and we can probably work soemthing out. It appers you're getting a good set of manuals, I would be patient and read through (at least) the heardware manauls before taking too much apart and certainly before pwoering anything up. Yes, I know the exciteemtn of getting a new toy, I also know the pain of damaing it because you didn't Read The Fine Manual (and to be fair, the Philips manuals are pretty good). > > > These machines vary a bit in the CPU design. The P850 is hard-wired > > logic. The P855, 852, 856, etc are microcoded TTL (I think). The P851 is > > custom Philips bitslice ICs. The P854 is AMD2900 bitslice. The P853 (I > > think) is a custom single-chip LSI implementation of the processor. > > I think Jos correctly identified the blinkenlights one as a P856 or > P857. The other two look like they might be P854's. Will post actual > model numbers and card id's once I've picked them up. They look like P854s to me. Those have a keypad frontpanel (controlled by an 8048 iIRC) with vacuum fluorescent displays.Quite fun. My P854 manuals i the preliminary one. In particualr I don't have the microcode sources and I don't have much information on the panel hardware. I hope you get this information, I look forward to reading it. > > I also need to find a way to haul these upstairs... I don't think my > wife will be all that thrilled to have them sit in the living room for > a prolongued period. The P854 CPU is quite light (I can easily carry it). The 856 looks a lot heavier (for example, I can lift a P850, but wouldn't want to carry it very far), the driveare probably heavy too. Don;'t forget these thins come apart, though. Pullign all the PCBs makes a suprising difference to the weight, just make sure you know which slots they go back in. Similarly removing the PSUs can help (and you might want to do that anyway to be able to inspect them. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 1 18:16:55 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 00:16:55 +0100 Subject: Technical Specs of DEC Cables Message-ID: <074501cd404c$a41f0180$ec5d0480$@ntlworld.com> Is there a reference somewhere that tells me exactly the spec of various DEC cables? For example I think I need a BC13B (connects VCB02 to monitor, keyboard and mouse), but I have a BC19S which *seems* identical. All I can find are resellers that list part numbers, one or two name the cables, but don't give the technical information that gives me any idea if these two are interchangeable or not. Thanks Rob From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 1 18:26:57 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 16:26:57 -0700 Subject: CDP1802? In-Reply-To: <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook> References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com> <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FC94FC1.4060703@brouhaha.com> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > TIL311 displays? I pass =) These displays are expensive... TIL311 displays are the *inexpensive* ones. The correct displays for an Elf are the HP (now Avago) displays, and those are expensive. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jun 1 21:29:08 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 19:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I on Ebay Message-ID: In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with cassette card on ebay. See item number 160810171525. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 21:36:34 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 21:36:34 -0500 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 35k ? wow On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 9:29 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with cassette > card on ebay. See item number 160810171525. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jun 1 21:40:26 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 21:40:26 -0500 Subject: some items I don't need In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FC97D1A.4080100@pico-systems.com> Well, digging through a bunch of stuff, i have found some items people might have interest in. I have : A KA-11 backplane section, 3 pieces of 4 x 6 Unibus-style backplane. I'm pretty sure the label reads KA-11, which I think it the backplane for an 11/20 CPU. There is one wire-wrap wire that got scraped when a screw was removed, otherwise no damage to it. the connector contacts look clean, too. Free for the shipping cost. I have a complete KA-650 with cabinet. It is pretty dirty. But, years ago, I did plug the CPU and memory into my KA-650 system, and it loaded VMS. I was using 4.7 at the time, and upgrading to the KA-650 would have required upgrading and cracking the security on VMS 5.1 Not sure what to ask for this system, but I could list the board numbers if somebody wants it. No hard drive, but there is a TK-50 in the cabinet. I got quite a stack of boards with it, but other than CPU and memory, I did not test them. Some of them probably have serious corrosion damage. It must have come out of a chemical plant or something, it was like that when I got it. I have a KA-630 maintenance print set. Free for the shipping. I have a Lear Siegler ADM-36 maintenance manual, with schematics. I used that print set to double the CPU speed on the ADM-36 that I had. (Got rid of the terminal a long time ago.) Got a VT-240, worked last time I powered it up. Also 2 LK-201AA keyboards. Make an offer. Got several 9-slot Q-bus backplanes with fan and switching power supply. These were from the WELL (Whole Earth Lectronic Link) service. Not sure of the backplane part number, it is covered by the cabinet. Make offer. Aviv Q-bus Storage Tek tape interface. All the firmware is marked R925, so that might be the model #. Make offer. 2 Q-bus printer interface, M8027. Make offer. Unibus paddle, M9042. Make offer. MDB Q-bus (or is it Unibus?) MDB-LP11 (name kind of suggests Unibus, but it is 4-wide. Looks like it handles 2 printers. Make offer. 2 quad-wide extender boards. 2 dual-wide extender. Make offer. 1 M9202 Unibus jumper module, with the folded-up cable between the boards. Make offer. 4 M9047 Qbus grant continuity card. 1 G7273 Unibus grant continuity card. 1 M9302 Unibus terminator. 1 Camintonn CM-DRV11-WA Qbus DMA parallel interface. 1 DEC M7941, I think this is a DEC DRV-11, without the DMA. 1 M9400-YE, M9401 set with interconnecting cable, Qbus cabinet-cabinet extension. 1 Dilog DQ153 Q-bus mag tape control for buffered pertec interface. 1 DELQA Qbus ethernet interface, with cable and MAU connector. 1 CMD CQD-200/T Qbus SCSI tape control. Don't remember if this one works or not. 1 TD Systems Viking Q/B, Qbus SCSI disk controller, I think. 1 M7546 TK-50 Qbus controller. I still have more stuff, like the boards that came with the KA-650, I will have to clean them up and inventory them. Jon From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 22:13:52 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 20:13:52 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FC984F0.5080700@gmail.com> Or you could buy this one for $180,000 . http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2012/books-manuscripts-n08864#/r=/en/ecat.fhtml.N08864.html+r.m=/en/ecat.lot.N08864.html/57/ On 6/1/2012 7:36 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > 35k ? wow > > > On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 9:29 PM, David Griffithwrote: > >> In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with cassette >> card on ebay. See item number 160810171525. >> >> -- >> David Griffith >> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu >> >> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >> A: Top-posting. >> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? >> From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 1 22:51:14 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 23:51:14 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> $500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo to someones house?!?!? $35K starting bid too??? Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on whats included? $35k is being a bit much, imho Curt David Griffith wrote: > > In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with > cassette card on ebay. See item number 160810171525. > From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jun 1 22:51:52 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 23:51:52 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay References: <4FC984F0.5080700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1AB032F341884D1790E29756ACCB410E@hd2600xt6a04f7> As far as I know the Apple I is the most expensive collectable computer, whats next on the list? ----- Original Message ----- From: "mc68010" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay > Or you could buy this one for $180,000 . > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 1 22:54:20 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 23:54:20 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FC984F0.5080700@gmail.com> References: <4FC984F0.5080700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FC98E6C.9070709@atarimuseum.com> Another overhyped, and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overpriced sotheby's auction... they tried to sell some old Atari art 6-7 years back, the stuff was yellowed, faded and damaged due to poor handling and storage, I think they were shooting for $120-$150k, the top bid was like $17k or so, in the end the seller who hauled the hundreds of pounds of stuff from CA to NY didn't sell, and then still have to pay all of the sotheby's fee's, what a screwed up deal. mc68010 wrote: > Or you could buy this one for $180,000 . > > http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2012/books-manuscripts-n08864#/r=/en/ecat.fhtml.N08864.html+r.m=/en/ecat.lot.N08864.html/57/ > > > On 6/1/2012 7:36 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> 35k ? wow >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 9:29 PM, David >> Griffithwrote: >> >>> In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with >>> cassette >>> card on ebay. See item number 160810171525. >>> >>> -- >>> David Griffith >>> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu >>> >>> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >>> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >>> A: Top-posting. >>> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? >>> > From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 23:01:00 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 21:01:00 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > $500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo to > someones house?!?!? > > $35K starting bid too??? > > Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on > whats included? $35k is being a bit much, imho Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k last year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go for 120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this week. Too many people with more money than they know what to do with in this world. $180k is nothing to them. It would change many people's whole life. From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 23:34:30 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 21:34:30 -0700 Subject: some items I don't need In-Reply-To: <4FC97D1A.4080100@pico-systems.com> References: <4FC97D1A.4080100@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Jun 1, 2012 7:45 PM, "Jon Elson" wrote: > > Well, digging through a bunch of stuff, i have found some items people > might have interest in. I have : > Are we to guess that this stuff is located in Kirkwood MO 63122? Might be useful to know... -Glen From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 1 23:48:27 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 00:48:27 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FC99B1B.4030706@atarimuseum.com> I don't know, yeah maybe Zuckerberg will bid on it while he still has some cash left from the IPO before the stock tanks another $12 more and it ends up by the end of June on the penny stock listings.... mc68010 wrote: > On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> $500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo >> to someones house?!?!? >> >> $35K starting bid too??? >> >> Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on >> whats included? $35k is being a bit much, imho > > Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k > last year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go > for 120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this > week. Too many people with more money than they know what to do with > in this world. $180k is nothing to them. It would change many > people's whole life. > From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 2 01:31:42 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 23:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at "Jun 1, 12 11:51:14 pm" Message-ID: <201206020631.q526Vg7d14614696@floodgap.com> > $500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo to > someones house?!?!? No, no, silly, that was the Twentieth Anniversary Macintosh. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you cannot convince them, confuse them. -- Harry S Truman --------------- From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Jun 2 02:16:06 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 00:16:06 -0700 Subject: Odd capacitor identification Message-ID: <4FC9BDB6.2070808@mail.msu.edu> A couple of months ago I picked up a Terak, in pieces. I'm now working on putting it back together as well as I can; the power supply has three large capacitors that are visibly leaky (i.e. there's crud coming out the ends) so I would like to replace them before I go any further. Thing is, I've never run into a capacitor quite like this -- it's a radial capacitor, about 1" in diameter, and about 4" long, but there are pairs of terminals on both ends (i.e. a "+" and "-" terminal on both ends). It's marked as follows: MALLORY 1300 MF 75V 105C QLA132U075N3L 235-7838 I considered that this might actually contain two capacitors in one can (as I've seen in some old radios & TVs I've worked on), but the markings on the can don't seem to indicate that this is the case, and further it looks like (based on probing with my DVM) the power supply board is wired such that the "+" on one side is the same circuit as the "+" on the other. (I don't have a schematic to confirm this, and I haven't yet pulled the whole power supply PCB out to validate this.) Additionally, after removing the capacitor from the circuit, there's continuity (w/ no apparent resistance) between the "+" terminals on either end of the capacitor. So it -looks- like this is just a single 1300uF capacitor, but I'm curious as to why there are terminals at both ends... Any thoughts? Thanks as always, Josh From lists at loomcom.com Sat Jun 2 02:57:16 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 00:57:16 -0700 Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual Message-ID: I've suddenly found myself desperately in need of the following manual. It used to be available at Wilber Williams' Computer Museum web site, but of course that site has shut down and I don't know of any mirrors :( It was located here: http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-H740A-A-D%20H740D%20Power%20Supply%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf DEC-11-H740A-A-D H740D Power Supply Maintenance Manual Thanks for any help! -Seth From sander.reiche at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 04:17:11 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 11:17:11 +0200 Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Seth Morabito wrote: > I've suddenly found myself desperately in need of the following manual. It used to be available at Wilber Williams' Computer Museum web site, but of course that site has shut down and I don't know of any mirrors :( > > It was located here: > > http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-H740A-A-D%20H740D%20Power%20Supply%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf > I see that a lot of stuff at the former University of Queenland's Computer Museum of I.T. repository was rather interesting. I second this request but then for all of the contents of said repo ;) I see some 'RSX11M+' over at the vintage-computer.com site has at least somewhat of a mirror. Could be a point of entry there? re, Sander -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From pye at mactec.com.au Sat Jun 2 04:26:38 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 19:26:38 +1000 Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you put that address into the wayback machine: http://web.archive.org I think you'll get the document that you require (and the rest of the old site if you wish).. Chris... On 02/06/2012, at 5:57 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > > I've suddenly found myself desperately in need of the following manual. It used to be available at Wilber Williams' Computer Museum web site, but of course that site has shut down and I don't know of any mirrors :( > > It was located here: > > http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-H740A-A-D%20H740D%20Power%20Supply%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf > > DEC-11-H740A-A-D H740D Power Supply Maintenance Manual > > Thanks for any help! > > -Seth From sander.reiche at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 04:33:06 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 11:33:06 +0200 Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Chris Pye wrote: > If you put that address into the wayback machine: ?http://web.archive.org ? I think you'll get the document that you require (and the rest of the old site if you wish).. > > Chris... Good call! That will indeed help the OP. In the meantime I've responded to the post on vintage-computer to try and help out. I've got some storage left online 24/7 for him to post the mirror to. re, Sander -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Jun 2 04:50:22 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 11:50:22 +0200 Subject: Odd capacitor identification In-Reply-To: <4FC9BDB6.2070808@mail.msu.edu> References: <4FC9BDB6.2070808@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20120602095022.GB84316@beast.freibergnet.de> Josh Dersch wrote: > A couple of months ago I picked up a Terak, in pieces. I'm now working > on putting it back together as well as I can; the power supply has three > large capacitors that are visibly leaky (i.e. there's crud coming out > the ends) so I would like to replace them before I go any further. > > Thing is, I've never run into a capacitor quite like this -- it's a > radial capacitor, about 1" in diameter, and about 4" long, but there are > pairs of terminals on both ends (i.e. a "+" and "-" terminal on both ends). > > It's marked as follows: > > MALLORY > 1300 MF 75V 105C > QLA132U075N3L > 235-7838 > > I considered that this might actually contain two capacitors in one can > (as I've seen in some old radios & TVs I've worked on), but the markings > on the can don't seem to indicate that this is the case, and further it > looks like (based on probing with my DVM) the power supply board is > wired such that the "+" on one side is the same circuit as the "+" on > the other. (I don't have a schematic to confirm this, and I haven't yet > pulled the whole power supply PCB out to validate this.) Additionally, > after removing the capacitor from the circuit, there's continuity (w/ no > apparent resistance) between the "+" terminals on either end of the > capacitor. So it -looks- like this is just a single 1300uF capacitor, > but I'm curious as to why there are terminals at both ends... > > Any thoughts? > > Thanks as always, > Josh To lower the terminal impedance aka ESR? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 2 05:28:38 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 03:28:38 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <1AB032F341884D1790E29756ACCB410E@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4FC984F0.5080700@gmail.com> <1AB032F341884D1790E29756ACCB410E@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <4FC9EAD6.1090609@brouhaha.com> TeoZ wrote: > As far as I know the Apple I is the most expensive collectable > computer, whats next on the list? There are a lot of computers that might sell for more, if they were offered for sale. A privately-funded museum recently acquired an IBM 360/40 and a DEC KI10. While as far as I know the terms of the sales are not public, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they sold for well over the going price of an Apple I. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Jun 2 08:19:28 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:19:28 -0400 Subject: *uckerberg - Re: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FC99B1B.4030706@atarimuseum.com> References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> <4FC99B1B.4030706@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4FCA12E0.90902@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/06/12 12:48 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I don't know, yeah maybe Zuckerberg will bid on it while he still has > some cash left from the IPO before the stock tanks another $12 more and > it ends up by the end of June on the penny stock listings.... > > The size of his holding is such that even as a penny stock he'd be worth millions. --Toby > > mc68010 wrote: >> On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> $500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo >>> to someones house?!?!? >>> >>> $35K starting bid too??? >>> >>> Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on >>> whats included? $35k is being a bit much, imho >> >> Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k >> last year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go >> for 120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this week. >> Too many people with more money than they know what to do with in this >> world. $180k is nothing to them. It would change many people's whole >> life. >> > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 09:05:37 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 07:05:37 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> References: , <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com>, <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: mc68010 at gmail.com > > On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > $500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo to > > someones house?!?!? > > > > $35K starting bid too??? > > > > Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on > > whats included? $35k is being a bit much, imho > > Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k last > year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go for > 120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this week. Too > many people with more money than they know what to do with in this > world. $180k is nothing to them. It would change many people's whole life. Hi That one at Sotheby's was complete with quite a bit of manuals and paperwork. Anything with less is going to be quite a bit less in value. I'd be surprised to see, a board only, go for much over $100K. I understand to one at Sotheby now has some of the paper work. Dwight From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 09:25:07 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 10:25:07 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> Message-ID: > ?That one at Sotheby's was complete with quite a bit of manuals and paperwork. > Anything with less is going to be quite a bit less in value. I'd be surprised > to see, a board only, go for much over $100K. > I understand to one at Sotheby now has some of the paper work. More importantly, the one at Sotheby's has provenance from Sotheby's. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 2 10:29:45 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 08:29:45 -0700 Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCA3169.6010809@bitsavers.org> On 6/2/12 2:17 AM, Sander Reiche wrote: > I see that a lot of stuff at the former University of Queenland's > Computer Museum of I.T. repository was rather interesting. I second > this request but then for all of the contents of said repo It's copying now to bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jun 2 13:09:07 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 13:09:07 -0500 Subject: inventory of DEC items Message-ID: <4FCA56C3.5010506@pico-systems.com> OK, I made an inventory of all the boards. Some of these go with the BA23 cabinet, but I could mix and match for whoever buys the box. It has a TK50 and RD54-A disk drive in it. The board list I have is : M7169 QDSS M7620 BA KA650 M7621AF memory M7621AV memory M7168 memory - have 2 boards M3106 quad serial mux M7555 RQDX3 M8049 DRV11-J with 1 cable M7555 Disk control (MFM??) M7546 TK50 controller M7516YM DELQA - I have a total of 2 of these, listed the other last night M8634 IEQ11 - GPIB interface Of the above modules, the external connector panels are incredibly corroded, but the boards actually are quite clean. 2 x function selector panel module for KA630/KA650 battery, serial port baud rate selector, etc. M7606EF KA630 CPU M7607 MS630A M8029 RX02 controller M7264 LSI-11 M7950 DRV11-B M7942 no memory chips in sockets Also, dec-related parts : Emulex QD211 Dilog DQ686 Dilog DQ696-15 (have 2 units) Andromeda DC11 (floppy + MFM disk interface for Qbus) Emulex CS04 M?? Qbus memory MO XI/PL LSI-11 M ?? Qbus memory MSC4601 ?? BTA1000 Q-bus terminator MDB MLSI-DLV-11 Heath H11-2 parallel I/O I am located in St. Louis, MO Jon From lists at loomcom.com Sat Jun 2 13:21:07 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 11:21:07 -0700 Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D53D386-D47B-449A-9C6C-B1B632DFBF71@loomcom.com> On Jun 2, 2012, at 2:26 AM, Chris Pye wrote: > If you put that address into the wayback machine: http://web.archive.org I think you'll get the document that you require (and the rest of the old site if you wish).. > > Chris? Wow, I really should have thought of that. It's normally something that I try with missing websites, I don't know why I didn't this time. Thank you! -Seth From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 2 13:27:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 19:27:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd capacitor identification In-Reply-To: <4FC9BDB6.2070808@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jun 2, 12 00:16:06 am Message-ID: > > A couple of months ago I picked up a Terak, in pieces. I'm now working > on putting it back together as well as I can; the power supply has three > large capacitors that are visibly leaky (i.e. there's crud coming out > the ends) so I would like to replace them before I go any further. > > Thing is, I've never run into a capacitor quite like this -- it's a > radial capacitor, about 1" in diameter, and about 4" long, but there are > pairs of terminals on both ends (i.e. a "+" and "-" terminal on both ends). > > It's marked as follows: > > MALLORY > 1300 MF 75V 105C > QLA132U075N3L > 235-7838 > > I considered that this might actually contain two capacitors in one can > (as I've seen in some old radios & TVs I've worked on), but the markings > on the can don't seem to indicate that this is the case, and further it > looks like (based on probing with my DVM) the power supply board is > wired such that the "+" on one side is the same circuit as the "+" on > the other. (I don't have a schematic to confirm this, and I haven't yet > pulled the whole power supply PCB out to validate this.) Additionally, > after removing the capacitor from the circuit, there's continuity (w/ no > apparent resistance) between the "+" terminals on either end of the > capacitor. So it -looks- like this is just a single 1300uF capacitor, > but I'm curious as to why there are terminals at both ends... There are 2 reasons I can quickly think of for having 2 terminals for each side of the capacitor. Firslty, it could result lower inductace in the circuit, or perhaps no _common_ inductance between 2 circuits (charge and discharge ;-)) connected to the capacitor. Secondly, it could be a safety feature If the 2 equivalent termianls are conencted to differnet points in the cirucit, then if either wire becmes disconencted, it would open the entire circuit, whereas if the 2 wires were conencted as a 'T' to one terminal, then if the termianl fiailed the 2 wires might still be conencvted to each other but not to the capacitor. I think the first is more likely here. -tony From wheagy at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 14:13:57 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:13:57 -0400 Subject: Commodore Datasette belt Message-ID: I was able to get a pretty good measurement on this belt (thanks for the tips) and found one that I believe to be compatible at MCM for under $1. If anyone is interested, the part is... SQUARE BELT 10.5X.046/266.70MMX84.89X1.17 Square Belts, I.C.: 10.5, Thickness: 0.046 I used the string method that was suggest and got a length of 27cm and a digital caliper to measure the width and it was 1.15mm. So I think the above should work. Thanks. Win From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 2 14:19:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 12:19:50 -0700 Subject: Odd capacitor identification In-Reply-To: References: <4FC9BDB6.2070808@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jun 2, 12 00:16:06 am, Message-ID: <4FCA04E6.25711.FD275F@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jun 2012 at 19:27, Tony Duell wrote: > Firslty, it could result lower inductace in the circuit, or perhaps no > _common_ inductance between 2 circuits (charge and discharge ;-)) > connected to the capacitor. I've seen these also--and they were manufactured right up through the 90s that I know of. Perhaps browsing one of the big manufacturers' catalogs (NCC, for example) would yeild more information. Another possibility is that it makes PCB layout simpler, but I think that's unlikely. I've always been puzzled as to whether these should be called axial or radial leads. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jun 2 17:33:08 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 15:33:08 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> The last one sold by this vendor is here: Apple 1 - The ORIGINAL Apple Computer (#160413355114) US $42,766.00 Buyer: Member id randomz3 Mar-30-10 20:16 He also is selling an Imsai purported to be one used early on for internal work free of timeshare work if you look at the other auctions. You can get his whole history from his 45 feedback score link, seems to have sold a lot of artifacts, and some junk. I Don't know what Sotheby's brings to the table as far as their provenance, they know 200 million paintings, but most of the time when I hear their "experts" on things like this (other than maybe specifically the Apple 1 now) they sound clueless. This one comes with a signed note from Wozniak saying it is an Apple 1, who do you want to certify it? A schmuck at Sotheby's or Steve? For most items computer if they were worth serious money and really needed such I'd far rather post here and invite your opinion than an auction houses. They only have credibility based on their track record, and overpricing and getting $100k for one Apple 1 isn't a real track record. Jim On 6/2/2012 7:25 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> That one at Sotheby's was complete with quite a bit of manuals and paperwork. >> Anything with less is going to be quite a bit less in value. I'd be surprised >> to see, a board only, go for much over $100K. >> I understand to one at Sotheby now has some of the paper work. > More importantly, the one at Sotheby's has provenance from Sotheby's. > > -- > Will > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 2 17:58:11 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 15:58:11 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> References: , , <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4FCA3813.18643.1C50B7E@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jun 2012 at 15:33, jim s wrote: > For most items computer if they were worth serious money and really > needed such I'd far rather post here and invite your opinion than an > auction houses. They only have credibility based on their track > record, and overpricing and getting $100k for one Apple 1 isn't a real > track record. As people-with-too-much-money have pretty much over-inflated the art world, I think some are looking to diversify. Still, compared to an Edvard Munch painting, $35K is small potatoes. However, not completely outside the realm of attraction for some counterfeiters to work up. How would one know? Carbon-14 date the solder mask? --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 2 18:27:53 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 17:27:53 -0600 Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Seth Morabito writes: > I've suddenly found myself desperately in need of the following manual. It > used to be available at Wilber Williams' Computer Museum web site, but of > course that site has shut down and I don't know of any mirrors :( > > It was located here: > > http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-H740A-A-D%20H740D%20Power% > 20Supply%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf > > DEC-11-H740A-A-D H740D Power Supply Maintenance Manual I'm working with another list member to get this material hosted on manx.classiccmp.org. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 2 18:31:23 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 17:31:23 -0600 Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual In-Reply-To: <4FCA3169.6010809@bitsavers.org> References: <4FCA3169.6010809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4FCA3169.6010809 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 6/2/12 2:17 AM, Sander Reiche wrote: > > > I see that a lot of stuff at the former University of Queenland's > > Computer Museum of I.T. repository was rather interesting. I second > > this request but then for all of the contents of said repo > > It's copying now to bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au OK, when I get the copy I'm expecting, I'll see if it contains anything not located there. I'll get manx's URL for the site updated. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 2 18:56:55 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 17:56:55 -0600 Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual In-Reply-To: References: <4FCA3169.6010809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > I'll get manx's URL for the site updated. in case anyone wants to track it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 20:02:18 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 18:02:18 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> References: , <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>, , , <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:33:08 -0700 > From: jws at jwsss.com > To: > Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay > > The last one sold by this vendor is here: > > Apple 1 - The ORIGINAL Apple Computer (#160413355114) US $42,766.00 > Buyer: Member id randomz3 Mar-30-10 20:16 > > He also is selling an Imsai purported to be one used early on for > internal work free of timeshare work if you look at the other auctions. > You can get his whole history from his 45 feedback score link, seems to > have sold a lot of artifacts, and some junk. > ---snip--- The IMSAI has an interesting artical attached to the sale on ebay that is worth reading. I consider the story to be worth more that some IMSAI. Of course, it includes some floppies but makes no claims as to what they contain. If it contained some of the original works at Apply, they may have more value than the IMSAI as well. Dwight From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 20:13:16 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 21:13:16 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > I Don't know what Sotheby's brings to the table as far as their provenance, Mainly, that the item passed through one of the big auction houses (in this case, Sotheby's). This carries a huge amount of weight. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 20:15:25 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 21:15:25 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > This one comes with a signed note from Wozniak saying it is an Apple 1, who > do you want to certify it? ?A schmuck at Sotheby's or Steve? That schmuck from Sotheby's would likely go to Steve and have it authenticated. That is what they are paid to do. -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 2 20:58:13 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 21:58:13 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 9:15 PM Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay >> This one comes with a signed note from Wozniak saying it is an Apple 1, >> who >> do you want to certify it? A schmuck at Sotheby's or Steve? > > That schmuck from Sotheby's would likely go to Steve and have it > authenticated. That is what they are paid to do. > > -- > Will The art world took ages to come up with ways to detect forgeries and many of those use high tech science not just somebody's visual "looks good" ok. And we still have forgeries going for millions of dollars and those do pass through the major auction houses. Anybody can get a list of Apple I's lost to the world and make up another with a custom made circuit board, chips with the correct date code, some aging, and a good story. Its not worth cloning a C64 worth $20 but if Apple I's keep selling for $100K it will be worth the effort. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 21:16:26 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 22:16:26 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: > The art world took ages to come up with ways to detect forgeries and many of > those use high tech science not just somebody's visual "looks good" ok. And > we still have forgeries going for millions of dollars and those do pass > through the major auction houses. Yes, this happens, but very rarely. The auction houses are *always* rejecting questionable items - forgeries, copies, and everything else. It would not surprise me if Sotheby's rejects 99 out of 100 Picassos as fakes or copies, even though original Picassos are actually pretty common. > Anybody can get a list of Apple I's lost to the world and make up another > with a custom made circuit board, chips with the correct date code, some > aging, and a good story. Its not worth cloning a C64 worth $20 but if Apple > I's keep selling for $100K it will be worth the effort. Forging an Apple 1 would certainly be possible, but quite difficult. All it takes is one minor mistake. -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 2 21:49:19 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 22:49:19 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 10:16 PM Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay > > Forging an Apple 1 would certainly be possible, but quite difficult. > All it takes is one minor mistake. > > -- > Will There are pictures, part lists, etc out there for what are basically simple make it in your garage type stuff. The early software collectors (old games) have issues with people making fakes for items that sell for only hundreds of dollars. I can't think of ANY hobby where fakes didn't come out when items started to be worth some money (stamps, coins, baseball cards, etc). From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jun 2 22:29:00 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 20:29:00 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4FCAD9FC.1020102@jwsss.com> I think this guy did as good a job and doesn't owe the amount that Sotheby's charges. In the computer area they don't have experts I'd pay their buyer's premium to have. My point is I'd rather have someone hunted down either here or thru contacts here explaining the provenance than them. If they do it and say they did I just don't see why that makes it any better. If they handled the volume of collectable computers to have people on staff who are as knowledgeable as this group that would be one thing, but there is not. i'd go to one of the computer museum people here, for instance or a serious collector such as you and line up the experts and document it. If Sotheby's starts to demonstrate they can regularly deliver the market to support $100k apple 1's then they deserve the business. but a guy like the one with the current listing is doing a pretty good job on his own and Ebay is finding the market. It would be interesting to see if he had any dealings with the auction houses before doing either the previous one or this one. I'll send a question to see if they answer. Jim On 6/2/2012 6:15 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> This one comes with a signed note from Wozniak saying it is an Apple 1, who >> do you want to certify it? A schmuck at Sotheby's or Steve? > That schmuck from Sotheby's would likely go to Steve and have it > authenticated. That is what they are paid to do. > > -- > Will > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 22:36:07 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 23:36:07 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7> <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: > There are pictures, part lists, etc out there for what are basically simple > make it in your garage type stuff. Please realize that when you are dealing with Apple 1 "level" artifacts, the fakes have to be *perfect*. Perfect enough to undergo scrutiny under a series of lab grade tests and expert eyeballs. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 2 22:48:41 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 20:48:41 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FCAD9FC.1020102@jwsss.com> References: , , <4FCAD9FC.1020102@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4FCA7C29.17993.2CF0333@cclist.sydex.com> It could be that Sotheby's has gotten bitten by the old computer bug. They called a couple of weeks ago asking for some quotes on floppy data recovery... --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 22:51:11 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 23:51:11 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FCAD9FC.1020102@jwsss.com> References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> <4FCAD9FC.1020102@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > I think this guy did as good a job and doesn't owe the amount that Sotheby's > charges. ?In the computer area they don't have experts I'd pay their buyer's > premium to have. But they do have experts in other areas of antique technology, such as scientific instruments, guns, and clocks - the basic ideas of the history are the same. And these experts are very well aware that they should seek and find experts if they can not find ones in house. >?My point is I'd rather have someone hunted down either > here or thru contacts here explaining the provenance than them. Sure, you would rather do it that way, but the fact remains that there is a gulf of difference between provenance an individual can establish and provenance a big auction house establishes. > If they do it and say they did I just don't see why that makes it any > better. ?If they handled the volume of collectable computers to have people > on staff who are as knowledgeable as this group that would be one thing, but > there is not. This mostly does not matter. The people with the money put a lot of weight on the value of big auction house provenance. That provenance is as good as gold. > i'd go to one of the computer museum people here, for instance or a serious > collector such as you and line up the experts and document it. And this is what the people at the auction houses do - they realize that they are not experts of everything, an will reach out to get the information they need. Even the people at Antiques Roadshow do this. > If Sotheby's starts to demonstrate they can regularly deliver the market to > support $100k apple 1's then they deserve the business. ?but a guy like the > one with the current listing is doing a pretty good job on his own and Ebay > is finding the market. I do not deny this. I wish him the best of luck. -- Will From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Jun 3 01:51:38 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 23:51:38 -0700 Subject: Odd capacitor identification In-Reply-To: <4FCA04E6.25711.FD275F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FC9BDB6.2070808@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jun 2, 12 00:16:06 am, <4FCA04E6.25711.FD275F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FCB097A.8070209@mail.msu.edu> On 6/2/2012 12:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Jun 2012 at 19:27, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Firslty, it could result lower inductace in the circuit, or perhaps no >> _common_ inductance between 2 circuits (charge and discharge ;-)) >> connected to the capacitor. > I've seen these also--and they were manufactured right up through the > 90s that I know of. Perhaps browsing one of the big manufacturers' > catalogs (NCC, for example) would yeild more information. > > Another possibility is that it makes PCB layout simpler, but I think > that's unlikely. > > I've always been puzzled as to whether these should be called axial > or radial leads. > > --Chuck > Thanks for all the suggestions. I've pulled the PCB out and the positive terminals at both ends of each of the three capacitors are directly connected to one another by a trace on the underside of the PCB. Given this, is there any reason I shouldn't replace these with a more conventional 1300uF 75V electrolytic? Thanks, Josh From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 08:42:47 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 06:42:47 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: , <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>, , , <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>, , <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: > From: teoz at neo.rr.com ---snip--- > > Anybody can get a list of Apple I's lost to the world and make up another > with a custom made circuit board, chips with the correct date code, some > aging, and a good story. Its not worth cloning a C64 worth $20 but if Apple > I's keep selling for $100K it will be worth the effort. One of the problems is ebay. A person could use photos of a real Apple I and sneek in a Replica I in its place. Many buyers wouldn't realize the switch until they'd had the unit for a few days. By that time, the seller could be long gone. A couple years back, one of the ebay sleezes tried to pass what he knew was a Replica I off as a real Apple I. He knew this because he'd scrapped the words Replica I off the board himself. He'd bought the board about a month earlier, under a different name. What he didn't realize was that he'd tried to sell his car under both names and there was the same picture. He had a number of stories as to how he came on the board. In one case, he claimed the it was an estate sale. Then he claimed he'd got it from his brother. I'd written him several notes explaining to him that fraud over $10 was probably prison time in his state. He later toned down his sale and said that it had been identified by others that it was not an original but it may be a replica. Still, someone payed several thousand dollars for it but I most likely saved his ass. I doubt he'd thank me though. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 09:25:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 07:25:50 -0700 Subject: Odd capacitor identification In-Reply-To: <4FCB097A.8070209@mail.msu.edu> References: <4FC9BDB6.2070808@mail.msu.edu>, <4FCA04E6.25711.FD275F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FCB097A.8070209@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4FCB117E.7344.15B83D@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jun 2012 at 23:51, Josh Dersch wrote: > Thanks for all the suggestions. I've pulled the PCB out and the > positive terminals at both ends of each of the three capacitors are > directly connected to one another by a trace on the underside of the > PCB. Given this, is there any reason I shouldn't replace these with a > more conventional 1300uF 75V electrolytic? I think that should work just fine. --Chuck From pdp11 at btconnect.com Fri Jun 1 05:43:14 2012 From: pdp11 at btconnect.com (Dougal) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 11:43:14 +0100 Subject: Dec industrial I/O cards (QBus) Message-ID: <201206011043.HQC96177@c2beaomr10.btconnect.com> Good Morning, We are in the market for IDV11-A, (M5026) and IDV11-C, (M8005). We note that you previously had these units in stock. Question: Do you still have similar units? Subsequent Question: Can you source these cards. Final Question: How much? We look forward to hearing from you. Regards Doug Mackay Digital Systems and Service Ltd Tel: +44 1536 460724 Mob: +44 7798 927 090 From rob_j37 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 1 15:12:25 2012 From: rob_j37 at hotmail.com (RobJ) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 21:12:25 +0100 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables Message-ID: Is there a reference somewhere that tells me exactly the spec of various DEC cables? For example I think I need a BC13B (connects VCB02 to monitor, keyboard and mouse), but I have a BC19S which *seems* identical. All I can find are resellers that list part numbers, one or two name the cables, but don't give the technical information that gives me any idea if these two are interchangeable or not. Thanks Rob From jimpdavis at gorge.net Fri Jun 1 21:56:02 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 19:56:02 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FC980C2.4030209@gorge.net> I was asked by Pat Terrell to evaluate an apple 1 at the Byte shop in Portland back in 1976. I told him I couldn't see anyone that knew anything about micros buying an overpriced, single board toy when S100 machines were so superior. I wish I had taken it in trade for the Basic programming class I instructed. Doh! Adrian Stoness wrote: > 35k ? wow > > > On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 9:29 PM, David Griffithwrote: > > >> In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with cassette >> card on ebay. See item number 160810171525. >> >> -- >> David Griffith >> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu >> >> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >> A: Top-posting. >> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? >> >> > From jim.p.davis at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 00:25:38 2012 From: jim.p.davis at gmail.com (Jim Davis) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 22:25:38 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FC99B1B.4030706@atarimuseum.com> References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> <4FC99B1B.4030706@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: I was asked by Pat Terrell to evaluate an apple 1 at the Byte shop in Portland back in 1976. I told him I couldn't see anyone that knew anything about micros buying an overpriced, single board toy when S100 machines were so superior. Later, A long haired mountain-man Paul Lutus showed up at the Byte shop in Beaverton trying to sell Paul Terrell on the Apple 2 he carried in a backpack. He demonstrated his 3D wireframe drawing package without much impression on Pat. Byte shop decided to not carry apple. On 6/1/12, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I don't know, yeah maybe Zuckerberg will bid on it while he still has > some cash left from the IPO before the stock tanks another $12 more and > it ends up by the end of June on the penny stock listings.... > > > > mc68010 wrote: >> On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> $500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo >>> to someones house?!?!? >>> >>> $35K starting bid too??? >>> >>> Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on >>> whats included? $35k is being a bit much, imho >> >> Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k >> last year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go >> for 120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this >> week. Too many people with more money than they know what to do with >> in this world. $180k is nothing to them. It would change many >> people's whole life. >> > From dave_rowland at btinternet.com Sat Jun 2 06:16:26 2012 From: dave_rowland at btinternet.com (Dave Rowland) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 12:16:26 +0100 Subject: Xerox diablo 3000 In-Reply-To: <4FC94FC1.4060703@brouhaha.com> References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com> <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC94FC1.4060703@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: At our museum we have just been donated a couple of Xerox Diablo 3000 computers. Does anyone have schematics and/or service manuals . We have media but nothing else. Thanks Dave -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From jonas at otter.se Sat Jun 2 15:44:29 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 22:44:29 +0200 Subject: Philips P800 family minis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCA7B2D.1010805@otter.se> On Fri, 1 Jun 2012 21:53:54 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote. > And the wonderful instructions to run the supply off an isolating > transformer, but if that's not possible to disconenct the maisn werth > wire in the 'scope mains plug and take great care. Err, yes. Having a > 'scope floating at mains voltage is not the sort of thing I want to do... For a Philips computer, you would naturally use a Philips scope, they have double insulation and no mains earth ;-) /Jonas From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 3 10:04:00 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 09:04:00 -0600 Subject: Gear for sale - Goldendale Wa. In-Reply-To: <4FAADD7A.10303@gorge.net> References: <4FAADD7A.10303@gorge.net> Message-ID: Hi Jim, Have you had a chance to take some pictures yet? -- Richard -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 10:05:34 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 08:05:34 -0700 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 3, 2012 8:01 AM, "RobJ" wrote: > > Is there a reference somewhere that tells me exactly the spec of various DEC > cables? > > For example I think I need a BC13B (connects VCB02 to monitor, keyboard and > mouse), but I have a BC19S which *seems* identical. I thought it was a BC18Z cable for the VCB02. I think that's the cable I use with mine. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jun 3 10:10:58 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 11:10:58 -0400 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCB7E82.8070404@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/06/12 4:12 PM, RobJ wrote: > Is there a reference somewhere that tells me exactly the spec of various DEC > cables? > > For example I think I need a BC13B (connects VCB02 to monitor, keyboard and > mouse), but I have a BC19S which *seems* identical. All I can find are > resellers that list part numbers, one or two name the cables, but don't give > the technical information that gives me any idea if these two are > interchangeable or not. Some info: http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/467 --Toby > > Thanks > > Rob > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 3 10:15:09 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:15:09 +0100 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> Please ignore the duplicate posting. I mistakenly sent the first version of this from my Hotmail account and sometimes these pop up on the list after several days. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of RobJ > Sent: 01 June 2012 21:12 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > > Is there a reference somewhere that tells me exactly the spec of various DEC > cables? > > For example I think I need a BC13B (connects VCB02 to monitor, keyboard > and mouse), but I have a BC19S which *seems* identical. All I can find are > resellers that list part numbers, one or two name the cables, but don't give > the technical information that gives me any idea if these two are > interchangeable or not. > > Thanks > > Rob From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 11:11:04 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 09:11:04 -0700 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: This manual lists the VCB02 color cable as the BC18Z and the mono cable as the BC18P. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/vcb02/AZ-GLGAB-MN_VCB02_Technical_Manual_Feb86.pdf From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 11:25:21 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 09:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7> <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <20120603091958.I64319@shell.lmi.net> > Forging an Apple 1 would certainly be possible, but quite difficult. > All it takes is one minor mistake. Quite difficult, indeed! The real Apple 1 didn't have ANY USB ports! And, it didn't use ANY microcontrollers! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 11:44:34 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 09:44:34 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20120603091958.I64319@shell.lmi.net> References: , <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7>, <20120603091958.I64319@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2012 at 9:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Forging an Apple 1 would certainly be possible, but quite difficult. > > All it takes is one minor mistake. > > Quite difficult, indeed! > The real Apple 1 didn't have ANY USB ports! > And, it didn't use ANY microcontrollers! At this point, I have to ask myself this: "What's the practical difference between a "genuine" Apple I and one constructed from old parts (even old PCB)?" In other words, what TANGIBLE difference is there? I think that this is a valid question for the scientifically-minded. While someone may insist that it's not possible to make a perfect copy of the Mona Lisa, it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility to make a perfect copy of an old computer. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 11:47:56 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 09:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com> <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com> <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7> <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <20120603094219.Y64319@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 2 Jun 2012, William Donzelli wrote: > Please realize that when you are dealing with Apple 1 "level" > artifacts, the fakes have to be *perfect*. Perfect enough to undergo > scrutiny under a series of lab grade tests and expert eyeballs. . . . such as paint on the right date codes on top AND bottom of ALL the chips, and don't use RoHS solder? From js at cimmeri.com Sun Jun 3 12:05:17 2012 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 12:05:17 -0500 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCB994D.2080207@cimmeri.com> On Sat, 2 Jun 2012, William Donzelli wrote: > Please realize that when you are dealing with Apple 1 "level" > artifacts, the fakes have to be *perfect*. Perfect enough to undergo > scrutiny under a series of lab grade tests and expert eyeballs. > I would think the hardest part would be finding the properly aged, unused board material itself. Boards from 1976 have definite technological characteristics, along with the patina of aging, compared to a board cut today. - John Singleton From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 12:05:42 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 13:05:42 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20120603091958.I64319@shell.lmi.net> <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > At this point, I have to ask myself this: ?"What's the practical > difference between a "genuine" Apple I and one constructed from old > parts (even old PCB)?" > > In other words, what TANGIBLE difference is there? > > I think that this is a valid question for the scientifically-minded. Put some of the solder and/or traces under a microscope - the oxidation will be different. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 12:16:21 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 13:16:21 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FCB994D.2080207@cimmeri.com> References: <4FCB994D.2080207@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > I would think the hardest part would be finding the properly aged, unused > board material itself. ? Boards from 1976 have definite technological > characteristics, along with the patina of aging, compared to a board cut > today. Yes, it would be hard, but not impossible. I come across chunks of old circuit board stock all the time, including the weird materials that have been obsolete for 40 years. The hardest part is getting the oxidation right on any of the metal surfaces, including (and probably most importantly) the solder/pin interfaces. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 12:37:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 10:37:50 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: , <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2012 at 13:05, William Donzelli wrote: > Put some of the solder and/or traces under a microscope - the > oxidation will be different. And that matters--how? I'd think that oxidation would be highly variable depending on storage conditions. I have a tuba and tried to sell it for a time and got almost no interest. After I turned up a photo of Arnold Jacobs (late of the Chicago Symphony) playing it, there was a flood of interest. Mind you, the tuba hadn't changed. Is this some sort of superstition wherein the ghost of someone inhabits it, thereby rendering it more valuable? I just don't get it. How, objectively, is a coffee cup that Steve Jobs once drank out of any different from a coffee cup from the same manufacturer's lot? --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 12:40:11 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:40:11 -0700 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: One last reply on this topic, this is a good reference page: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html You might have to refer to any pinout information available in the VCB02 and VS3100 manuals to determine if there are any functional differences in the BC18Z and BC19S cables. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html#bc19s BC19S Cable for Color Monitor BC19S Description: VAXstation 3100 Color monitor cable, 10 feet long. Specification: 15-way D-type, female connector with fixing screws at the system end, and connector block with screw fixing at the monitor end. The connector block has the following connectors: * three BNC male connectors, on short leads, for the monitor. * 4-way keyboard socket. * 7-way socket for the mouse. The 3 BNC connectors are embossed with the legend 'R', 'G', or 'B', and the short leads to which they are attached are Color coded red, green, or blue. Typical Usage: Used with VAXstation 3100 models 30, 38, 48 (Color - not SPX). Also used with the VAXstation 2000 (Color). Ordering Information: BC19S-10 p/n 17-01480-01 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 12:57:45 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 13:57:45 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com> <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > And that matters--how? ?I'd think that oxidation would be highly > variable depending on storage conditions. When the original Apple 1 boards were stuffed, the chips were new, or maybe at most just a few years old. The solder wetted the pins nicely, and all is fine. The pin/solder interface ages just as it should - a well known process. Then, 35 years later, some guy wants to fake an Apple 1. Sure, with work, he can find all original chips with proper date codes and everything, but the pins will have had many years to age. If he does not clean up the pins, the solder joints will be suboptimal*, and will be noticed during the authentication process. If he does clean up the pins, he likely will not be able to match to what the oxidation should be, either by overcleaning or undercleaning (or etches, or scratches, or pitting, or a million other effects), and this will be noticed during the authentication process. That authenication process, with all those fancy microscopes and such, can be a real bitch. *This is why chips, especially surface mount parts, have shelf lives, and real manufacturers generally do not like to use parts that are over a couple years old. -- Will From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 3 12:58:34 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 18:58:34 +0100 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <080001cd41b2$821068b0$86313a10$@ntlworld.com> Thanks Glen, that looks like a really useful reference. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: 03 June 2012 18:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > > One last reply on this topic, this is a good reference page: > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html > > You might have to refer to any pinout information available in the > VCB02 and VS3100 manuals to determine if there are any functional > differences in the BC18Z and BC19S cables. > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html#bc19s > > BC19S Cable for Color Monitor > > BC19S > > Description: > > VAXstation 3100 Color monitor cable, 10 feet long. > > Specification: > > 15-way D-type, female connector with fixing screws at the system end, and > connector block with screw fixing at the monitor end. The connector block > has the following connectors: > > * three BNC male connectors, on short leads, for the monitor. > * 4-way keyboard socket. > * 7-way socket for the mouse. > > The 3 BNC connectors are embossed with the legend 'R', 'G', or 'B', and the > short leads to which they are attached are Color coded red, green, or blue. > > Typical Usage: > > Used with VAXstation 3100 models 30, 38, 48 (Color - not SPX). Also used with > the VAXstation 2000 (Color). > > Ordering Information: > > BC19S-10 p/n 17-01480-01 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 13:12:51 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 11:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120603104659.T67281@shell.lmi.net> > > Put some of the solder and/or traces under a microscope - the > > oxidation will be different. On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > And that matters--how? I'd think that oxidation would be highly > variable depending on storage conditions. . . . and, if it had ever been repaired? Could THAT aging be accelerated by humid oxygen enhanced storage? > Is this some sort of superstition wherein the ghost of someone > inhabits it, thereby rendering it more valuable? Maybe by the bits that were left behind? You and I might not be impressed by "George Washington's Shoe-Horn!", but some people are. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 3 13:12:54 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 11:12:54 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com> <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FCBA926.3010306@bitsavers.org> On 6/3/12 10:57 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >If he does not clean up the pins, the solder joints will be > suboptimal All of the ICs are socketed using TI sockets. You aren't going to get the oxidation to match at the point where the IC sticks out of the socket. You aren't very likely to find the right solder mask, or get it to exactly match the machines that can easily be examined at CHM. I have actually compared the two we currently have, and it would be easy to detect a forged third board. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jun 3 13:18:28 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:18:28 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay References: <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com> <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay Sure, with work, he can find all original chips with proper > date codes and everything, but the pins will have had many years to > age. If he does not clean up the pins, the solder joints will be > suboptimal*, and will be noticed during the authentication process. > Will > Suboptimal for a device that is not expected to even be powered on let alone used enough for early failure? These boards were hand soldered to begin with, you have to master the makers (woz) soldering style and then chemically age the solder without affecting anything else. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 13:36:53 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:36:53 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FCBA926.3010306@bitsavers.org> References: <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com> <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com> <4FCBA926.3010306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > All of the ICs are socketed using TI sockets. The same hold true - the pin/solder interface for sockets or the pin/solder interface for chips. (I had forgotten that the chips in an Apple 1 are socketed). -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 13:37:49 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:37:49 -0400 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com> <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Suboptimal for a device that is not expected to even be powered on let alone > used enough for early failure? Completely irrelevant to the authentication process. -- Will From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 13:57:18 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 20:57:18 +0200 Subject: Philips P800 family minis In-Reply-To: <4FCA7B2D.1010805@otter.se> References: <4FCA7B2D.1010805@otter.se> Message-ID: <01c701cd41ba$b40c2630$1c247290$@gmail.com> I just finished picking up the P800's. A quick overview of what's there: - 3 x P859 (one looks like the board set is incomplete) - 1 x P856/P857? (no type label, marked "defect" in black marker on top) Aren't these supposed to have core memory? No core found inside. - 1 x card cage with 6 cards. No idea what this is yet. - 1 x P833 cassette drive enclosure with two drives fitted. - 2 x P830-010 8"disk drive enclosure (looks like it can hold 2 drives). One of these is new-in-box - 2 x 8" floppy disk drive to fit the enclosures - 3 x X1215 cartridge disk drive. Looks like it has an internal fixed platter as well. - 10 x 14" disc cartridge - Some boxes with spare cards and parts - Cables - 16 Binders with manuals I'm taking an inventory of the manuals first. Will post the list once it's complete. Cheers, Camiel From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 14:20:30 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 12:20:30 -0700 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: , <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4FCB568E.8271.1237CC9@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2012 at 13:57, William Donzelli wrote: > That authenication process, with all those fancy microscopes and such, > can be a real bitch. All at a price, however, which doubtless adds considerably to the asking price. Got to have the right spiritual mojo, IOW. --Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Jun 3 14:33:38 2012 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 21:33:38 +0200 Subject: Philips P800 family minis References: <4FCA7B2D.1010805@otter.se> <01c701cd41ba$b40c2630$1c247290$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <221031B7008F43189A7B1DCE101F773F@udvikling> If my experience with P6000 is anything to go by (P6000 used some P800 hardware), I can give some details : - the cassette drives are ECMA34. This means about 250K on each side of the cassette. The logic wants +6VDC I've seen 2 types, 1 where the lid comes halfway down, and where the casset is mounted vertically, and 1 type where the cassette is inserted horizontally. Connector- and signalwise, they are identical. - all 8" floppy drives drives I've seen, use 115VAC for the motor. Check for bad/dried out rubber cabling /Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Camiel Vanderhoeven" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" ; Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 8:57 PM Subject: RE: Philips P800 family minis >I just finished picking up the P800's. A quick overview of what's there: > > - 3 x P859 (one looks like the board set is incomplete) > - 1 x P856/P857? (no type label, marked "defect" in black marker on top) > Aren't these supposed to have core memory? No core found inside. > - 1 x card cage with 6 cards. No idea what this is yet. > - 1 x P833 cassette drive enclosure with two drives fitted. > - 2 x P830-010 8"disk drive enclosure (looks like it can hold 2 drives). > One > of these is new-in-box > - 2 x 8" floppy disk drive to fit the enclosures > - 3 x X1215 cartridge disk drive. Looks like it has an internal fixed > platter as well. > - 10 x 14" disc cartridge > - Some boxes with spare cards and parts > - Cables > - 16 Binders with manuals > > I'm taking an inventory of the manuals first. Will post the list once it's > complete. > > Cheers, > > Camiel > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 384 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sun Jun 3 15:34:42 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 22:34:42 +0200 Subject: Philips P800 family minis In-Reply-To: <01c701cd41ba$b40c2630$1c247290$@gmail.com> References: <4FCA7B2D.1010805@otter.se> <01c701cd41ba$b40c2630$1c247290$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FCBCA62.1010104@bluewin.ch> > - 1 x P856/P857? (no type label, marked "defect" in black marker on top) > Aren't these supposed to have core memory? No core found inside. A minimal P856 has one PCB with the CPU, and one PCB with 32kx16 core on it. P857 has 1 to 4 core PCB's. Front panel, cardcage and powersupply are identical. Jos From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 15:37:05 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 22:37:05 +0200 Subject: Philips P800 family minis References: <4FCA7B2D.1010805@otter.se> Message-ID: <01cb01cd41c8$a4111520$ec333f60$@gmail.com> Here are the manuals. It looks like there are some duplicates. If you'd like anything scanned, let me know, and I'll give it priority. My intention is to scan all of it for contribution to bitsavers: - Binder o Reference manual P858, P859 o Field Support Manual Extended Control Panel P858 o Field support manual P859 Rack (M4R) & Power Supply - Binder (2x) o P851M Volume 1 Central Processor & Memories Technical Manual o P851M Volume 2 Control Units Technical Manual - Binder o Field Support Manual Flexible Disc Control Unit (F1MZ) P830-150 PTS6751-002 Equipment Shelf P830-010 (2x) o Field Support Manual Flexible Disc Control Units F1MZA P830-150 PTS6751-002 F1MZ06 PTS6751-510 Equipment Shelf P830-010 o Field Support Manual Flexible Disc Control Units MIFZ PTS6751-103 - Binder o Field Support Manual Flexible Disc Control Units F1MB P830-050 PTS6849 F1MB06 PTS6849-501 Equipment Shelf P830-010 o Preliminary P800M Interface And Installation Manual (P852M, P856M and P857M related) - Binder o Field Support Manual Flexible Disc Drive 1M P830-025 PTS6791 P4500-035 P300 o Service Manual Flexible Disc Drive P830-015 PTS6867 PTS8861 o Service Manual Flexible Disc Drive P3431 P830-005 o Service Manual Flexible Disc Drive P3431 P830-006 - Binder o Preliminary P800M Interface and Installation Manual (P852M, P856M and P857M related) - Binder o P855M MIOS Drivers Users Guide o P851M Volume 2 Control Units Technical Manual o Field Support Manual Control Unit For Serial Data Transfer (SCUZ) P845-140 PTS6859 o Field Support Manual Synchronous/A-Synchronous Line Control Unit (SALCU-Z) P845-160 PTS6857 PTS8857 o Field Support Manual Synchronous/A-Synchronous Line Control Unit (SALCU-Z) P845-160 PTS6857 - Binder o P856M/P857M CPU Service Manual - Binder o Field Support Manual A-Synchronous Medium Speed Data Line Multiplexor (AMA8A) V24/V28 Interface P845-060 o Field Support Manual A-Synchronous Medium Speed Data Line Multiplexor (AMA8C) TTL/Current Loop Interface P845-070 o Field Support Manual Asynchronous Medium Speed Line Multiplexor Type Z (AMA4Z) P845-180 / Type V (AMA4V) PTS6741-001 o Field Support Manual Multiple Asynchronous Control Unit (ASCU4Z) P845-145 PTS8853 - Binder o Field Support Manual Central Processor Unit (P857EB) P854 PTS6925 - Binder o Field Support Manual Central Processor Unit (CP1A) P853 o Field Support Manual P853/P854 Racks (6U6/6U12) & Power Supplies o Field Support Manual P843-500/PTS8890-001 o Field Support Manual Hand Held Control Panel P843-500/PTS8890-001 o Field Support Manual Digital Extended Control Panel P843-510 o Field Support Manual P843-120 Input/Output Processor (IOPZR) - Binder o Field Support Manual Eprom/Prom 16K Words Memory P851M-010 (2x) o Field Support Manual Reprogrammable Read Only Memory P851M-006 (1K) P851M-007 (2K) P851M-008 (4K) o Field Support Manual Dynamic Ram Memory 32K/64K (GMB1) P851M-016:16K/16 P851M-017:32K/16 PTS8221 o Field Support Manual UPL Master Slave Memory 1M8 P4500-026/027 PTS8823 o Field Support Manual MOS Memory Module 128K16 (WMD-16/27MC) P4000-24 PTS6773 P843-608 o Field Support Manual P4000-24 (WMD) MOS Memory Module 128K16 - Binder o Memory Test Program BBRAM applicable to semiconductor memories greater than 32KW o Test Program for CPU P854,P858,P859,CP1BF Test Of Memory Management Part REMMU1 o Test Program for CPU P854,P858,P859 Test Of Page Fault Test Of Automatic Restart REPAF o Test Program for CPU P854,P858,P859,CP1BF Test Of Instruction Set CP57RE o FPPE Test Program EFPP1 Applicable To Floating Point Processor o Test Program For CP1BF,CP2B Test Of Memory Management Part MMU2B o Test Program For CP1BF,CP2B Test Of Page Fault Test Of Automatic Restart PAF2B o Test Program Release Notice Number 245 - Binder o Preliminary X1215/16 Cartridge Disk Drive Unit - Binder "P800 Test Programs" with handwritten and typewritten test descriptions o Floppy o Pertec MTT o X/2/5 o PTP o FHD o X1210 o LP o CPU + OPTIONS o Cassette o Datacom o MIOS Cheers, Camiel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 15:42:21 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:42:21 -0400 Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Glen Slick wrote: >> I have an SQ3706A, REV H, firmware REV L. OK... looking at my hardware... The UC07 has a paper-label on the EPROM marked G143M and the 40-pin chip with the serial number and barcode says "Rev F" (there's a "Rev D" written on the board in Sharpie up by the SCSI connector). My Dilog boards are, according to the paper labels in the upper-left corner, SQ3703As. One is marked Rev G and looks clean. The other is a Rev E with a few green ECO wires (the Rev E board has an EPROM marked "Rev G", and the Rev G board has firmware marked "Rev H". I'm guessing there isn't a lot of info out there to attempt to see if it's possible to "convert" an SQ3703A to an SQ3706A in the field, but if anyone knows anything about both boards, I'd be game to try if it's EPROMs or PALs or whatever. -ethan From tom94022 at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 16:26:13 2012 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:26:13 -0700 Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260> I have just received several hundred 5?-inch FDDs which I would like to copy to modern media. They contain WordPerfect files Does anyone know a low cost copying service? The best I have found so far is about $5 per disk although I suspect I could negotiate a lower bulk rate. In the alternative, can anyone recommend a USB 5?-inch reader? Device Side Data's FC5025 USB 5.25" floppy controller (http://www.deviceside.com/) looks like a starting point towards a reader for about $100. Tom From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 16:45:29 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks In-Reply-To: <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260> References: <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260> Message-ID: <20120603143921.F67443@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Tom Gardner wrote: > I have just received several hundred 5?-inch FDDs which I would like to copy > to modern media. They contain WordPerfect files > Does anyone know a low cost copying service? The best I have found so far > is about $5 per disk although I suspect I could negotiate a lower bulk rate. > In the alternative, can anyone recommend a USB 5?-inch reader? Device Side > Data's FC5025 USB 5.25" floppy controller (http://www.deviceside.com/) looks > like a starting point towards a reader for about $100. Before anybody gets into the cockamamie advice of catweasel V diskferret, where are you? Have machines with 5.25" drives become that difficult to find? Unless you have OTHER plans and goals, you do NOT need a 5.25" interface for your current computer; you need a couple of hours use of a vintage machine. Even if you have to do two steps - 5.25" to 3.5", 3.5" to "cloud", . . . Do you have software that won't choke on WordPervert files? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 16:56:08 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks In-Reply-To: <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260> Message-ID: <1338760568.90765.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 6/3/12, Tom Gardner wrote: > I have just received several hundred > 5?-inch FDDs which I would like to copy > to modern media.? They contain WordPerfect files > > Does anyone know a low cost copying service?? The best > I have found so far > is about $5 per disk although I suspect I could negotiate a > lower bulk rate. > > In the alternative, can anyone recommend a USB 5?-inch > reader?? Device Side > Data's FC5025 USB 5.25" floppy controller (http://www.deviceside.com/) looks > like a starting point towards a reader for about $100. If they're just PC disks, then the easiest, fastest, cheapest method would be to simply use an older PC with a 5 1/4" floppy drive... The drives are dirt common and all PC's can use them up until about the late P4 era. There should be absolutely no problem finding the equipment to actually read the disks and copy the data to something else. The various USB disk interface solutions are vast overkill if all you want to do is copy files from MSDOS format floppies, since the "vintage" hardware is not that old, or hard to find/operate. I mean, I suppose if you get really stuck, someone here could probably read them for you - I know I have the equipment necessary to read them, and doing so would be no problem - except that it takes a rather long time to read in a couple hundred floppies... Where are you located? Of course, that solves the "getting the files off the disks onto other media" problem, you're on your own to find something to read the files themselves. Word processor file formats are subject to change. -Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 3 15:54:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 21:54:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd capacitor identification In-Reply-To: <4FCB097A.8070209@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jun 2, 12 11:51:38 pm Message-ID: > Thanks for all the suggestions. I've pulled the PCB out and the > positive terminals at both ends of each of the three capacitors are > directly connected to one another by a trace on the underside of the > PCB. Given this, is there any reason I shouldn't replace these with a > more conventional 1300uF 75V electrolytic? My only conern would be that such a replacement might have a higher inductance amd that might matter. I suspect there are conventional-looking capacitors that would work, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 3 15:30:26 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 21:30:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox diablo 3000 In-Reply-To: from "Dave Rowland" at Jun 2, 12 12:16:26 pm Message-ID: > > > > At our museum we have just been donated a couple of Xerox Diablo 3000 > computers. Does anyone have schematics and/or service manuals . We have > media but nothing else. Thanks I don;'t have any technical information, but I do have such a machine. I am also lacking any software for it (not even a boot disk).... When things settile down a bit here, I could be convinced to rtrace out schematic sfrom mine if necessary. From what I remembr it's not that complicted, althoghh I do recall an 8048-series mcirocontroller on the disk controller board. It's been a lon time since I was inside it (lack of software means it wasn't of great interest to me). I seem to rememmber 4 logic boards behind the monitor section. Possible CPU, memory, video and disk? The drives and monitor looked fairly conventiona, and there's a PSU in the base under those units. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 3 16:53:18 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 22:53:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Philips P800 family minis In-Reply-To: <01c701cd41ba$b40c2630$1c247290$@gmail.com> from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jun 3, 12 08:57:18 pm Message-ID: > > I just finished picking up the P800's. A quick overview of what's there: > > - 3 x P859 (one looks like the board set is incomplete) Am I right in thinking that his is related to the P854? > - 1 x P856/P857? (no type label, marked "defect" in black marker on top) > Aren't these supposed to have core memory? No core found inside. I thought so. Maybe that's why it's defective :-( FWIW, the P850 does use core memeory, but there are memory modules (containg the core and drivers spearately fitted i nthe machine, it's not on boards in the main crdcage. Is it possible you've missed the core in your 856? > - 1 x card cage with 6 cards. No idea what this is yet. Maybe soem specail I/O unig. Philips appaer to ahve made a lot of realtime I/O bords, ADCs, DACs, etc. > - 1 x P833 cassette drive enclosure with two drives fitted. > - 2 x P830-010 8"disk drive enclosure (looks like it can hold 2 drives). One > of these is new-in-box IF that's the unit I am thinki of, it does, indeed, take 2 drives. It's also the only thing you've mentioned that I also own... > - 2 x 8" floppy disk drive to fit the enclosures > - 3 x X1215 cartridge disk drive. Looks like it has an internal fixed > platter as well. > - 10 x 14" disc cartridge > - Some boxes with spare cards and parts > - Cables > - 16 Binders with manuals > > I'm taking an inventory of the manuals first. Will post the list once it's > complete. Very nice haul! -tony From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 17:01:40 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 18:01:40 -0400 Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks In-Reply-To: <20120603143921.F67443@shell.lmi.net> References: , <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260>, <20120603143921.F67443@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: word will read wordperfect quite happily.a 5.25" PC drive should cost < $10 and work just fine. copying, how about teledisk? or dos "copy" command? > Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:45:29 -0700 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks > > On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Tom Gardner wrote: > > I have just received several hundred 5?-inch FDDs which I would like to copy > > to modern media. They contain WordPerfect files > > Does anyone know a low cost copying service? The best I have found so far > > is about $5 per disk although I suspect I could negotiate a lower bulk rate. > > In the alternative, can anyone recommend a USB 5?-inch reader? Device Side > > Data's FC5025 USB 5.25" floppy controller (http://www.deviceside.com/) looks > > like a starting point towards a reader for about $100. > > Before anybody gets into the cockamamie advice of catweasel V diskferret, > where are you? > > Have machines with 5.25" drives become that difficult to find? > > Unless you have OTHER plans and goals, you do NOT need a 5.25" interface > for your current computer; you need a couple of hours use of a vintage machine. > Even if you have to do two steps - 5.25" to 3.5", 3.5" to "cloud", . . . > > > Do you have software that won't choke on WordPervert files? > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 3 17:08:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 18:08:23 -0400 Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks In-Reply-To: <20120603143921.F67443@shell.lmi.net> References: <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260> <20120603143921.F67443@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FCBE057.30708@neurotica.com> On 06/03/2012 05:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Tom Gardner wrote: >> I have just received several hundred 5?-inch FDDs which I would like to copy >> to modern media. They contain WordPerfect files >> Does anyone know a low cost copying service? The best I have found so far >> is about $5 per disk although I suspect I could negotiate a lower bulk rate. >> In the alternative, can anyone recommend a USB 5?-inch reader? Device Side >> Data's FC5025 USB 5.25" floppy controller (http://www.deviceside.com/) looks >> like a starting point towards a reader for about $100. > > Before anybody gets into the cockamamie advice of catweasel V diskferret, > where are you? > > Have machines with 5.25" drives become that difficult to find? No, but 5.25" drives themselves have. I even got physically shoved out of the way (AHEM, HI DAN) at a hamfest for a box of them just this morning. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Jun 3 17:42:51 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:42:51 +1200 Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks In-Reply-To: <1338760568.90765.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260> <1338760568.90765.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've extracted files off 5.25 inch floppies for a few people who no longer have the gear. It takes longer than you think because you need to manually check every disk for degredation. But yes, if it's 5.25 and MS-DOS and all that is needed is extraction (and not extraction AND conversion), then it's a straightforward process if you can borrow an old machine. I wouldn't go buying a USB device simply for this task. Tez On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Sun, 6/3/12, Tom Gardner wrote: > > > I have just received several hundred > > 5?-inch FDDs which I would like to copy > > to modern media. They contain WordPerfect files > > > > Does anyone know a low cost copying service? The best > > I have found so far > > is about $5 per disk although I suspect I could negotiate a > > lower bulk rate. > > > > In the alternative, can anyone recommend a USB 5?-inch > > reader? Device Side > > Data's FC5025 USB 5.25" floppy controller (http://www.deviceside.com/) > looks > > like a starting point towards a reader for about $100. > > If they're just PC disks, then the easiest, fastest, cheapest method would > be to simply use an older PC with a 5 1/4" floppy drive... The drives are > dirt common and all PC's can use them up until about the late P4 era. There > should be absolutely no problem finding the equipment to actually read the > disks and copy the data to something else. The various USB disk interface > solutions are vast overkill if all you want to do is copy files from MSDOS > format floppies, since the "vintage" hardware is not that old, or hard to > find/operate. > > I mean, I suppose if you get really stuck, someone here could probably > read them for you - I know I have the equipment necessary to read them, and > doing so would be no problem - except that it takes a rather long time to > read in a couple hundred floppies... Where are you located? > > Of course, that solves the "getting the files off the disks onto other > media" problem, you're on your own to find something to read the files > themselves. Word processor file formats are subject to change. > > -Ian > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 17:59:29 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 15:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: , <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260>, <20120603143921.F67443@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120603155606.R67443@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > word will read wordperfect quite happily. Are you stating that the version of WEIRD in Office 2011 will accept WordPervert files? If not, then think carefully about WHICH versions, and where the cutoff is. > a 5.25" PC drive should cost < $10 and work just fine. > copying, how about teledisk? or dos "copy" command? Once he gets a 5.25" drive, DOS COPY certainly will do the job. COPY with the /S option (5.00? and above) will pick up the files from sub directories also. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jun 3 18:19:59 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives Message-ID: I'm pondering putting 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives in a single chassis along with a Discferret / Kryoflux. The 3.5" can be HD with no problem. I'm leery of the complications of DD versus HD 5.25" drives. If I bulk-erase a DD disk and write to it with an HD drive, might there be any problems when the disk is used again on a DD drive? Would simply formatting the DD disk be enough? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 18:37:59 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 16:37:59 -0700 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCB92E7.10019.20F397B@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2012 at 16:19, David Griffith wrote: > I'm pondering putting 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives in a single chassis > along with a Discferret / Kryoflux. The 3.5" can be HD with no > problem. I'm leery of the complications of DD versus HD 5.25" drives. > If I bulk-erase a DD disk and write to it with an HD drive, might > there be any problems when the disk is used again on a DD drive? > Would simply formatting the DD disk be enough? The magnetic characteristics of 5.25" media are very different between 2D and HD recording modes. I wouldn't recommend mixing things up. 2D on 2D media; HD on HD media. You can get away with playing fast and loose with media on 3.5" drives, but there, the differences are much smaller. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 18:48:48 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, David Griffith wrote: > I'm pondering putting 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives in a single chassis > along with a Discferret / Kryoflux. The 3.5" can be HD with no problem. > I'm leery of the complications of DD versus HD 5.25" drives. If I > bulk-erase a DD disk and write to it with an HD drive, might there be any > problems when the disk is used again on a DD drive? That will usually be OK > Would simply formatting the DD disk be enough? NO. Formatting or re-writing a DD track with an HD drive will not adequately wipe the sides of the track enough for reading with a DD drive. Although it may look and work fine, if you never try to read it with anything but an HD drive. A DD track is about 1/3mm wide, and spaced about 1/2mm apart (48 tpi) An HD track is about 1/6mm wide, and spaced about 1/4mm apart (96tpi) The ENTIRE problem is that the 1/6mm wide head can NOT completely erase the 1/3mm wide track, although it can do so enough that IT doesn't mind the margins left behind. Bulk erasing and formatting and writing a "360K"/DD with an HD drive will give tracks that are 1/6mm wide spaced 1/2mm apart, and everybody is at least OK with reading that. For primarily reading, an HD drive will handle most of what you need, and the rarer instances of writing can be dealt with by bulk erasing first. If you're going to also mess with weird crap like 100tpi and 192 tpi, then you need a large collection of alternative drives to swap in and out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Jun 3 18:52:49 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1338767569.23426.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 6/3/12, David Griffith wrote: > I'm pondering putting 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives in a > single chassis along with a Discferret / Kryoflux.? The > 3.5" can be HD with no problem. I'm leery of the > complications of DD versus HD 5.25" drives.? If I > bulk-erase a DD disk and write to it with an HD drive, might > there be any problems when the disk is used again on a DD > drive?? Would simply formatting the DD disk be enough? For maximum flexibility, you should use both a DD and a HD 5 1/4" drive in your enclosure. You can then install a toggle switch to switch the drive control lines if the interface board you're using only supports two floppy drives at once. If you bulk erase a DD disk, then format it/write to it in a HD drive in DD mode (double stepping), and then further update it with a real DD drive, it'll usually work. The problem really comes in when you update a disk in the HD drive that was written in the DD drive - the narrower head of the HD drive won't erase the full DD track, so the DD drive will pick up both old and new information at once, leading to problems. As long as you are mindful of this and are careful never to put yourself in a situation where the 80 track drive will be writing over 40 track data, it will work just fine almost always. But routinely writing DD disks in the 80 track drive, you're bound to forget sometimes, and wind up with a mess... So, in short, yes. It will work. But I'd still strongly suggest you use a real DD drive for writing DD disks - it's still going to be more reliable. -Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 19:12:10 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 17:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCB92E7.10019.20F397B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FCB92E7.10019.20F397B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120603170724.S67443@shell.lmi.net> > > I'm pondering putting 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives in a single chassis > > along with a Discferret / Kryoflux. The 3.5" can be HD with no > > problem. I'm leery of the complications of DD versus HD 5.25" drives. > > If I bulk-erase a DD disk and write to it with an HD drive, might > > there be any problems when the disk is used again on a DD drive? > > Would simply formatting the DD disk be enough? On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The magnetic characteristics of 5.25" media are very different > between 2D and HD recording modes. I wouldn't recommend mixing > things up. 2D on 2D media; HD on HD media. > You can get away with playing fast and loose with media on 3.5" > drives, but there, the differences are much smaller. Yes, the coercivity of 5.25" is not very forgiving! HD diskettes used for 360K tend to self-destruct rather soon. Whereas the 600 Oersted V ~730 of 3.5" is arguably within range for non-critical use. However, I interpreted wht he was asking differently. I assumed that he was asking whether he could get away with 360K reading and writing on 300 Oerstedt diskettes using an HD drive. We are looking at two different issues entirely! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jun 3 19:17:22 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 17:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20120603170724.S67443@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FCB92E7.10019.20F397B@cclist.sydex.com> <20120603170724.S67443@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I'm pondering putting 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives in a single chassis >>> along with a Discferret / Kryoflux. The 3.5" can be HD with no >>> problem. I'm leery of the complications of DD versus HD 5.25" drives. >>> If I bulk-erase a DD disk and write to it with an HD drive, might >>> there be any problems when the disk is used again on a DD drive? >>> Would simply formatting the DD disk be enough? > > On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The magnetic characteristics of 5.25" media are very different >> between 2D and HD recording modes. I wouldn't recommend mixing >> things up. 2D on 2D media; HD on HD media. >> You can get away with playing fast and loose with media on 3.5" >> drives, but there, the differences are much smaller. > > Yes, the coercivity of 5.25" is not very forgiving! HD diskettes used for > 360K tend to self-destruct rather soon. > Whereas the 600 Oersted V ~730 of 3.5" is arguably within range for > non-critical use. > > However, I interpreted wht he was asking differently. I assumed that he > was asking whether he could get away with 360K reading and writing on 300 > Oerstedt diskettes using an HD drive. > > We are looking at two different issues entirely! What I'm proposing is writing bona-fide 360K disks using a 1.2M drive. The 360K disks I plan to read and write are stuff that a standard PC controller would have problems with (chiefly Apple and Commodore). I don't think any 1.2M disks I'm likely to come across would give a standard PC controller a problem. In any case, perhaps the most practical solution would be to put a 360K and 1.44M drive in the combo case and put the 1.2M drive in a case by itself. I don't anticipate doing 1.2M terribly often, but there is a stack of them in my pile-o-stuff that need reading. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 19:17:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:17:38 -0700 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <1338767569.23426.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: , <1338767569.23426.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2012 at 16:52, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > If you bulk erase a DD disk, then format it/write to it in a HD drive > in DD mode (double stepping), and then further update it with a real > DD drive, it'll usually work. Obviously, "HD" means something different to me--500kbit/sec MFM data rate at 360 RPM recording, versus 250kbit/sec MFM data rate at 300 RPM. If what was meant was 250Kbit/sec in a 96 tpi versus a 48 tpi drive, please say so. I still have quite a few "720K" 5.25" MS-DOS formatted floppies kicking around, recorded at 96 tpi. Heck, if memory serves, the Data General One laptop used them... But if you mean HD=double data rate/high density, that's a different kettle of fish. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 19:33:59 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:33:59 -0700 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20120603170724.S67443@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FCB92E7.10019.20F397B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120603170724.S67443@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FCBA007.28676.2427F46@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2012 at 17:12, Fred Cisin wrote: > Yes, the coercivity of 5.25" is not very forgiving! HD diskettes used > for 360K tend to self-destruct rather soon. Whereas the 600 Oersted V > ~730 of 3.5" is arguably within range for non-critical use. On the other hand, I've done jobs where the lot included HD 5.25" floppies recorded at 250K mixed in. (I think the last one was from a Kaypro written more than 20 years ago). Surprisingly, they mostly read just fine. I suspect that they were written on previously unused media and managed to hang on. Only one showed non-recoverable errors. Did anyone ever make a 96 tpi drive with a selectable-width tunnel- erase for writing 48 tpi formats? It would seem to be a practical thing to do, but I don't recall ever seeing such a beast. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 3 19:39:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:39:35 -0700 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: , <20120603170724.S67443@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4FCBA157.17793.247A0DF@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2012 at 17:17, David Griffith wrote: > In any case, perhaps the most practical solution would be to put a > 360K and 1.44M drive in the combo case and put the 1.2M drive in a > case by itself. I don't anticipate doing 1.2M terribly often, but > there is a stack of them in my pile-o-stuff that need reading. Well, if I look over my shoulder at the table sitting next to me, there's an IBM 5170 (PC AT)-type case with three drives in it--a 3.5" HD, a 5.25" HD and a 5.25" DD (1.44M, 1.2M, 360K in common parlance). They're all on a single 34-conductor cable hooked to the floppy side of a DTC 3280 SCSI controller. It's possible to set the jumpers for 4 floppy drives on the same cable as well, although you don't get individual motor control that way. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 19:41:55 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 17:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: <4FCB92E7.10019.20F397B@cclist.sydex.com> <20120603170724.S67443@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120603173709.X67443@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, David Griffith wrote: > The 360K disks I plan to read and write are stuff that a standard PC > controller would have problems with (chiefly Apple and Commodore). I > don't think any 1.2M disks I'm likely to come across would give a standard > PC controller a problem. There are a few HD alien disks. But MOST of them, such as NEC APC-9801 1.2M 5.25", can be done with stock PC controller. > In any case, perhaps the most practical solution would be to put a 360K > and 1.44M drive in the combo case and put the 1.2M drive in a case by > itself. I don't anticipate doing 1.2M terribly often, but there is a > stack of them in my pile-o-stuff that need reading. Depending on how obscure things are gonna get, a 3.5" drive that can also do 360 RPM, could be handy (NEC APC-9801 3.5") From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 3 19:48:49 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 17:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <1338767569.23426.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120603174242.W67443@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Obviously, "HD" means something different to me--500kbit/sec MFM data > rate at 360 RPM recording, versus 250kbit/sec MFM data rate at 300 > RPM. I think that he was referring to the "dual mode" drive, not the recording, and to the issues involved in using a "1.2M" drive from a PC, lifted from a 5170, with a 360K diskette, to try to read and write things such as Apple2, TRS80 model 1, Kaypro2, etc. We have a real problem with any carelessness in the terminology! It's inaccurate as hell, but most people will understand what I MEAN if I say "5150 360K drive" and "5170 1.2M drive" in such cases, and "DD" and "HD" for the recordings, although I have NEVER been happy with saying "quad density" for 250K-dtr, 300TPM 96tpi! And I REFUSE to call the double sided version of THAT "SUPER DENSITY"! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 21:20:25 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 22:20:25 -0400 Subject: Emulex UC07 / 08 and Disks greater 2GB ? In-Reply-To: <4FC2A154.40204@neurotica.com> References: <20120525154501.GA72120@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120527125618.GA54473@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FC2A154.40204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > On 05/27/2012 08:56 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Has anyone a Fw. version above G143R on such a card? I have G143M, which would not be newer if they are in ascending alphabetical order. Would a copy of that be interesting to examine, or is it common? -ethan From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Jun 4 00:39:00 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 07:39:00 +0200 Subject: Emulex UC07 / 08 and Disks greater 2GB ? In-Reply-To: References: <20120525154501.GA72120@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120527125618.GA54473@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FC2A154.40204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120604053900.GB76345@beast.freibergnet.de> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 05/27/2012 08:56 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >> Has anyone a Fw. version above G143R on such a card? > > I have G143M, which would not be newer if they are in ascending > alphabetical order. > > Would a copy of that be interesting to examine, or is it common? > > -ethan At least i know of no place where we can find that version. I have G143N and from somewhere from the net G143R. At least I can put this on my Webserver. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Jun 4 00:45:19 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 07:45:19 +0200 Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120604054519.GC76345@beast.freibergnet.de> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> I have an SQ3706A, REV H, firmware REV L. > > OK... looking at my hardware... > > The UC07 has a paper-label on the EPROM marked G143M and the 40-pin > chip with the serial number and barcode says "Rev F" (there's a "Rev > D" written on the board in Sharpie up by the SCSI connector). There is a manual for the UC07/08 on the net, it is one of the first hits when you try to google. Haven't found anything regarding differences between versions jet.... > > My Dilog boards are, according to the paper labels in the upper-left > corner, SQ3703As. One is marked Rev G and looks clean. The other is > a Rev E with a few green ECO wires (the Rev E board has an EPROM > marked "Rev G", and the Rev G board has firmware marked "Rev H". > > I'm guessing there isn't a lot of info out there to attempt to see if > it's possible to "convert" an SQ3703A to an SQ3706A in the field, but > if anyone knows anything about both boards, I'd be game to try if it's > EPROMs or PALs or whatever. > > -ethan Found almost nothing for them. I have a board LAbeled SQ703 where the 03 is on a paper label and the SQ7 is printed on the board. Have repaired it sometime, it is working as TMSCP controller. It has an 10pin Connector for an Terminal to set it up on the Interface connector side. I remember that I put the rom image from a 706 on it (shadoo sent me one) but it doesn't work as 706. I know that there is a 739 that can make both, MSCP and TMSCP... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 4 03:38:07 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:38:07 +0100 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <083901cd422d$5fcb4150$1f61c3f0$@ntlworld.com> For the record, it turns out that the BC19S cable also works on a VCB02. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > Sent: 03 June 2012 18:59 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > > Thanks Glen, that looks like a really useful reference. > > Regards > > Rob > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > > Sent: 03 June 2012 18:40 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > > > > One last reply on this topic, this is a good reference page: > > > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html > > > > You might have to refer to any pinout information available in the > > VCB02 and VS3100 manuals to determine if there are any functional > > differences in the BC18Z and BC19S cables. > > > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html#bc19s > > > > BC19S Cable for Color Monitor > > > > BC19S > > > > Description: > > > > VAXstation 3100 Color monitor cable, 10 feet long. > > > > Specification: > > > > 15-way D-type, female connector with fixing screws at the system end, > > and connector block with screw fixing at the monitor end. The > > connector block has the following connectors: > > > > * three BNC male connectors, on short leads, for the monitor. > > * 4-way keyboard socket. > > * 7-way socket for the mouse. > > > > The 3 BNC connectors are embossed with the legend 'R', 'G', or 'B', > > and the short leads to which they are attached are Color coded red, green, > or blue. > > > > Typical Usage: > > > > Used with VAXstation 3100 models 30, 38, 48 (Color - not SPX). Also > > used with the VAXstation 2000 (Color). > > > > Ordering Information: > > > > BC19S-10 p/n 17-01480-01 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jun 4 03:51:01 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:51:01 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks In-Reply-To: <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260> References: <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Tom Gardner wrote: > I have just received several hundred 5?-inch FDDs which I would like to copy > to modern media. They contain WordPerfect files How does one copy a Floppy Disk Drive? ;-) Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jun 4 03:54:59 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:54:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > A DD track is about 1/3mm wide, and spaced about 1/2mm apart (48 tpi) > An HD track is about 1/6mm wide, and spaced about 1/4mm apart (96tpi) How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I have enough 96tpi "DD" drives. I think you mix up track density and recording density, two unrelated things. Christian From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Jun 4 06:09:06 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 07:09:06 -0400 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20120603174242.W67443@shell.lmi.net> References: , <1338767569.23426.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com> <20120603174242.W67443@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FCC9752.6080701@compsys.to> >Fred Cisin wrote: >>On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >>Obviously, "HD" means something different to me--500kbit/sec MFM data >>rate at 360 RPM recording, versus 250kbit/sec MFM data rate at 300 >>RPM. >> >I think that he was referring to the "dual mode" drive, not the recording, >and to the issues involved in using a "1.2M" drive from a PC, lifted from >a 5170, with a 360K diskette, to try to read and write things such as >Apple2, TRS80 model 1, Kaypro2, etc. > > >We have a real problem with any carelessness in the terminology! >It's inaccurate as hell, but most people will understand what I MEAN if I >say "5150 360K drive" and "5170 1.2M drive" in such cases, and "DD" and >"HD" for the recordings, although I have NEVER been happy with saying >"quad density" for 250K-dtr, 300TPM 96tpi! And I REFUSE to call the >double sided version of THAT "SUPER DENSITY"! > Just to add some complexity (or perhaps some confusion) to the situation, the RX50 from DEC uses DD floppy media, but if I remember correctly, has 96 tpi. I know that on a PC, the HD drive is used to read and WRITE the RX50 floppy media using John Wilson's program "PUTR.COM". In addition, from within Ersatz-11, I am able to use the 5 1/4" HD drive (in my case B: under Windows 98SE - the A: drive is 3.5" HD) as an RX50 as well. In addition, PUTR will even perform a hardware low level FORMAT of the RX50 media. I am not sure if this FORMAT operation under PUTR is identical to what DEC would produce on a Rainbow RX50 which can also FORMAT the RX50 floppy media, but in the past when I did so, they can be read and written using a DEC RX50 under RT-11 on a DEC PDP-11/73. The RX50 has 800 blocks on one side for a total of 409,600 bytes. If I remember correctly, the geometry is 80 tracks with 10 sectors per track of 512 bytes per sector. Since the density is very similar to a DD media from the PC, DEC was able to use that media on the RX50. But I think there are 96 tpi (which requires the HD drive on the PC) rather than 48 tpi which is what the DD PC drive uses. I I have any of the physical properties incorrect, I apologize. I just wanted to add a bit more information to the mix and note that the RX50 media can be read and written on a PC, but MUST use the HD 5 1/4" PC drives BUT with DD media 360K diskette media - which is what the RX50 uses on the actual DEC drives. I do not know if what the PC HD 5 1/4" 1.2 M drive using DD 360K diskettes produces matches exactly what the actual DEC RX50 expects, but it does work in practice. Jerome Fine From iamcamiel at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 06:08:37 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 13:08:37 +0200 Subject: Philips P800 family minis In-Reply-To: References: <01c701cd41ba$b40c2630$1c247290$@gmail.com> from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jun 3, 12 08:57:18 pm Message-ID: <020401cd4242$649b8180$2dd28480$@gmail.com> Hi Tony, >> - 3 x P859 (one looks like the board set is incomplete) > Am I right in thinking that his is related to the P854? Yes, from what I've been able to glance from the manuals, the P859 is the same as the P854, but build on large 19" rack sized cards (M-type cards) rather than double eurocards (E-type cards) >> - 1 x P856/P857? (no type label, marked "defect" in black marker on >> top) Aren't these supposed to have core memory? No core found inside. > I thought so. Maybe that's why it's defective :-( > FWIW, the P850 does use core memeory, but there are memory modules (containg the core and drivers spearately fitted i nthe machine, it's not on boards in the main crdcage. Is it possible you've missed the core in your 856? No, there's no space for it to be anywhere else but in the main cardcage. The rest of the box is occupied by the power supplies. Deeper inspection has revealed that this system also doesn't have a CPU fitted. I do have spare cpu's though, and it looks like they might be able to use MOS memory, too. >> - 1 x card cage with 6 cards. No idea what this is yet. > Maybe soem specail I/O unig. Philips appaer to ahve made a lot of realtime I/O bords, ADCs, DACs, etc. Turns out to be an expansion chassis that gives you space for 6 more cards. Cheers, Camiel From camiel at camicom.com Mon Jun 4 06:04:09 2012 From: camiel at camicom.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 13:04:09 +0200 Subject: P800 boards Message-ID: <01ff01cd4241$c49ca4c0$4dd5ee40$@camicom.com> I've completed a list of boards in the P800 haul: CPU BOX 1 - labeled P859 . CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859) . MCU3 : 5111 199 77442 (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially populated)) . 2 x M128E : 5111 199 67592 (128Kx21 RAM) . MCU2 : 5111 199 78181 (Line printer, card reader control unit) . MTCU : 5111 199 72467 (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit) . 2 x M128ES : 5111 199 58622 (128Kx21 RAM) . MCU3 : 5111 199 77444 (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially populated)) . AMA-8A : 5111 199 75318 (Asynchronous line multiplexer) . SLCU2 : 5111 199 69373 (Synchronous serial line control unit) CPU BOX 2 - labeled P859 . 2 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859) . M128E : 5111 199 67592 (128Kx21 RAM) . MCU2 : 5111 199 78185 (Line printer, card reader control unit) . MCU2 : 5111 199 78186 (Line printer, card reader control unit) . MCU3 : 5111 199 77445 (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially populated)) . BIGD : 5111 199 73289 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller) . BIGD2A : 5111 199 57852 (Big disk) The weirdness of Box 2 is - obviously - a second CPU in the same box. This can't be right. CPU BOX 3 - labeled P859 . CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859) . M128E : 5111 199 67593 (128Kx21 RAM) . TIMER CARD : 4022 422 20091 . ? : 4522 107 62304 . CU-ADIOS : 8222 255 50942 Box 3 has three cards with part numbers in different series from the normal 5111 199 xxxxx CPU BOX 4 - unlabeled, P856 type M4M box . 2 x CDD : 5111 199 78176 . CDD : 5111 199 78177 . CDD : 5111 199 78178 . 2 x MCU3 : 5111 199 78198 (Paper tape, serial control unit fully populated)) . MMU : 5111 199 75183 (Memory Management Unit) . GPC : 5111 199 79382 (Custom card) Box 4 just looks wrong. I don't know what the CDD cards are, but there doesn't appear to be a CPU or memory in there. However, there are P856 CPU's in the spare cards box, and I found references to the P856 being able to use MOS memory as well as core, so all might not be lost here. EXPANSION BOX - E2 type (6 slots) . BIGD2A : 5111 199 57852 (Big disk) . MTCU : 5111 199 72467 (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit) . BIGD : 5111 199 59755 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller) . MTCU : 5111 199 72462 (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit) . 2 x MX : 5111 199 79335 CASSETTE BOX - P833 . K7S2 : 5111 199 79329 (P833-152 Cassette Control Unit) Combined with the spare M-format cards in the haul, the complete list of boards is as follows: . ? : 4522 107 62304 . AMA-8A : 5111 199 75318 (Asynchronous line multiplexer) . BIGD : 5111 199 59755 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller) . BIGD : 5111 199 73289 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller) . 2 x BIGD2A : 5111 199 57852 (Big disk) . 4 x CDD : 5111 199 7817X . 2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859) . 3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859) . CPB : 5111 199 74979 (P856 CPU) . CPB : 5111 199 76227 (P856 CPU?) . CPB / CP7B : 5111 199 63142 (P856 CPU?) . CU-ADIOS : 8222 255 50942 . 4 x F1MB : 5111 199 6742X (modified for 5.25" FDD) . 3 x F1MB : 5111 199 67427 (8" Floppy disk controller) . F1MBY : 5111 199 58742 (Floppy disk controller) . FLDB : 5111 199 69667 . GPC : 5111 199 79382 (Custom card) . 2 x IOP : 5111 199 73185 (I/O Processor) . K7S2 : 5111 199 79329 (P833-152 Cassette Control Unit) . 5 x M128E : 5111 199 6759X (128Kx21 RAM) . 2 x M128ES : 5111 199 58622 (128Kx21 RAM) . 3 x MCU2 : 5111 199 7818X (Line printer, card reader control unit) . 5 x MCU3 : 5111 199 7744X (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially populated)) . 2 x MCU3 : 5111 199 78198 (Paper tape, serial control unit fully populated)) . MMU : 5111 199 75183 (Memory Management Unit) . 3 x MTCU : 5111 199 7246X (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit) . 2 x MX : 5111 199 79335 . SLCU2 : 5111 199 69373 (Synchronous serial line control unit) . TIMER CARD : 4022 422 20091 Looks like I should be able to get a few systems going with these parts. There's also a second box with spare cards, having different formats. Some of these are double eurocard format, like those used in the P85xE systems. There's also a spare power supply for a P859 box, as well as a spare power supply for a P856 box. I'm interested in finding out more about the cards I couldn't identify, these are: . ? : 4522 107 62304 . 4 x CDD : 5111 199 7817X . FLDB : 5111 199 69667 . 2 x MX : 5111 199 79335 . TIMER CARD : 4022 422 20091 I'm hoping CDD means Cartridge Disc Drive, and that these are the controllers for the X1215 disk drives. The 2 8" floppy disk drives are CDC BR8A8A type, looks like they are 800KB double sided, double density drives. They're very dusty. Kind regards, Camiel Vanderhoeven Camicom Software Services & Consulting Tarthorst 1009 6708 JH Wageningen, The Netherlands www.camicom.com | camiel at camicom.com | +31 (0)6 432 568 98 From iamcamiel at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 08:42:30 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 15:42:30 +0200 Subject: P800 boards Message-ID: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com> I?ve completed a list of boards in the P800 haul: CPU BOX 1 ? labeled P859 ? CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859) ? MCU3 : 5111 199 77442 (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially populated)) ? 2 x M128E : 5111 199 67592 (128Kx21 RAM) ? MCU2 : 5111 199 78181 (Line printer, card reader control unit) ? MTCU : 5111 199 72467 (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit) ? 2 x M128ES : 5111 199 58622 (128Kx21 RAM) ? MCU3 : 5111 199 77444 (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially populated)) ? AMA-8A : 5111 199 75318 (Asynchronous line multiplexer) ? SLCU2 : 5111 199 69373 (Synchronous serial line control unit) CPU BOX 2 ? labeled P859 ? 2 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859) ? M128E : 5111 199 67592 (128Kx21 RAM) ? MCU2 : 5111 199 78185 (Line printer, card reader control unit) ? MCU2 : 5111 199 78186 (Line printer, card reader control unit) ? MCU3 : 5111 199 77445 (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially populated)) ? BIGD : 5111 199 73289 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller) ? BIGD2A : 5111 199 57852 (Big disk) The weirdness of Box 2 is ? obviously ? a second CPU in the same box. This can?t be right. CPU BOX 3 ? labeled P859 ? CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859) ? M128E : 5111 199 67593 (128Kx21 RAM) ? TIMER CARD : 4022 422 20091 ? ? : 4522 107 62304 ? CU-ADIOS : 8222 255 50942 Box 3 has three cards with part numbers in different series from the normal 5111 199 xxxxx CPU BOX 4 ? unlabeled, P856 type M4M box ? 2 x CDD : 5111 199 78176 ? CDD : 5111 199 78177 ? CDD : 5111 199 78178 ? 2 x MCU3 : 5111 199 78198 (Paper tape, serial control unit fully populated)) ? MMU : 5111 199 75183 (Memory Management Unit) ? GPC : 5111 199 79382 (Custom card) Box 4 just looks wrong. I don?t know what the CDD cards are, but there doesn?t appear to be a CPU or memory in there. However, there are P856 CPU?s in the spare cards box, and I found references to the P856 being able to use MOS memory as well as core, so all might not be lost here. EXPANSION BOX ? E2 type (6 slots) ? BIGD2A : 5111 199 57852 (Big disk) ? MTCU : 5111 199 72467 (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit) ? BIGD : 5111 199 59755 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller) ? MTCU : 5111 199 72462 (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit) ? 2 x MX : 5111 199 79335 CASSETTE BOX ? P833 ? K7S2 : 5111 199 79329 (P833-152 Cassette Control Unit) Combined with the spare M-format cards in the haul, the complete list of boards is as follows: ? ? : 4522 107 62304 ? AMA-8A : 5111 199 75318 (Asynchronous line multiplexer) ? BIGD : 5111 199 59755 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller) ? BIGD : 5111 199 73289 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller) ? 2 x BIGD2A : 5111 199 57852 (Big disk) ? 4 x CDD : 5111 199 7817X ? 2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859) ? 3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859) ? CPB : 5111 199 74979 (P856 CPU) ? CPB : 5111 199 76227 (P856 CPU?) ? CPB / CP7B : 5111 199 63142 (P856 CPU?) ? CU-ADIOS : 8222 255 50942 ? 4 x F1MB : 5111 199 6742X (modified for? 5.25" FDD) ? 3 x F1MB : 5111 199 67427 (8" Floppy disk controller) ? F1MBY : 5111 199 58742 (Floppy disk controller) ? FLDB : 5111 199 69667 ? GPC : 5111 199 79382 (Custom card) ? 2 x IOP : 5111 199 73185 (I/O Processor) ? K7S2 : 5111 199 79329 (P833-152 Cassette Control Unit) ? 5 x M128E : 5111 199 6759X (128Kx21 RAM) ? 2 x M128ES : 5111 199 58622 (128Kx21 RAM) ? 3 x MCU2 : 5111 199 7818X (Line printer, card reader control unit) ? 5 x MCU3 : 5111 199 7744X (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially populated)) ? 2 x MCU3 : 5111 199 78198 (Paper tape, serial control unit fully populated)) ? MMU : 5111 199 75183 (Memory Management Unit) ? 3 x MTCU : 5111 199 7246X (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit) ? 2 x MX : 5111 199 79335 ? SLCU2 : 5111 199 69373 (Synchronous serial line control unit) ? TIMER CARD : 4022 422 20091 Looks like I should be able to get a few systems going with these parts. There?s also a second box with spare cards, having different formats. Some of these are double eurocard format, like those used in the P85xE systems. There?s also a spare power supply for a P859 box, as well as a spare power supply for a P856 box. I?m interested in finding out more about the cards I couldn?t identify, these are: ? ? : 4522 107 62304 ? 4 x CDD : 5111 199 7817X ? FLDB : 5111 199 69667 ? 2 x MX : 5111 199 79335 ? TIMER CARD : 4022 422 20091 I?m hoping CDD means Cartridge Disc Drive, and that these are the controllers for the X1215 disk drives. The 2 8? floppy disk drives are CDC BR8A8A type, looks like they are 800KB double sided, double density drives. They?re very dusty. Cheers, Camiel From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Jun 4 09:00:16 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:00:16 -0500 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...) Message-ID: At 17:01 -0500 5/23/12, ARD wrote: >OS9 is so modular that there would be no problem in writing the device >manager and device drivers for a netwoek drvice. I think ethernet would >have had far to high a data rate, but there are plenty of slower >alternatices. Sorry for delayed response, vacation intervened. http://www.cloud9tech.com/ (no affiliation, other than as a highly satisfied customer) does market DriveWire for the CoCo3 running NitrOS-9. I have not (yet) used it, but they claim 115,200 bps on a CoCo3. There is a corresponding server that runs on the (Windows/Mac OS X/Linux) other end of the serial wire, and they claim TCP/IP and several dependent services (telnet, MIDI streaming to the server). So Tony's suggestion more or less already exists, with the assumption that you don't mind a modern-ish PC acting as an external ethernet <-> serial adaptor. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Jun 4 09:15:51 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 10:15:51 -0400 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net> On 06/04/2012 04:54 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >> A DD track is about 1/3mm wide, and spaced about 1/2mm apart (48 tpi) >> An HD track is about 1/6mm wide, and spaced about 1/4mm apart (96tpi) > > How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I have enough 96tpi "DD" > drives. I think you mix up track density and recording density, two > unrelated things. > > Christian > There are two common track density 48 and 96 tpi or otherwise said 40 and 80 cylinders. there are more tracks/cylinders to the radial inch. Also the head width is narrower by two for the 96tpi. Recording density is experssed in FRPI Flux Reversals per Inch. The problem with floppies is that for 5.25 you had: for 48tpi: Single sided 40 track FM (about 80k) Single sided 40 track MFM (about 160K) Two sided 40 track MFM (about 160k) Two sided 40 track MFM (about 360k) for 96tpi: Single sided 80 track FM (about 180k) Single sided 80 track MFM (about 360K) Two sided 80 track MFM (about 360k) Two sided 80 track MFM (about 720k) for 96tpi, HD: Two sided 80 track double data rate MFM (about 1.2M) The problem is that marketing named them! so we have single density, double density, quad density (mostly seen in the cp//m world), and HD never mind the sector size variations and layout. I also left out the oddball drives like 35track and 100tpi. Allison From jon at jonworld.com Mon Jun 4 09:44:14 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:44:14 -0400 Subject: Vintage Apple Gear Message-ID: I saw this locally on craigslist and thought someone may be interested. I have 0 connection with the seller... http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/sys/3028122746.html -- -Jon Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 4 09:45:24 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 07:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...) In-Reply-To: from Mark Tapley at "Jun 4, 12 09:00:16 am" Message-ID: <201206041445.q54EjOmR13369530@floodgap.com> > > OS9 is so modular that there would be no problem in writing the device > > manager and device drivers for a netwoek drvice. I think ethernet would > > have had far to high a data rate, but there are plenty of slower > > alternatices. > > Sorry for delayed response, vacation intervened. > > http://www.cloud9tech.com/ (no affiliation, other than as a highly > satisfied customer) does market DriveWire for the CoCo3 running > NitrOS-9. I have not (yet) used it, but they claim 115,200 bps on a > CoCo3. There is a corresponding server that runs on the (Windows/Mac > OS X/Linux) other end of the serial wire, and they claim TCP/IP and > several dependent services (telnet, MIDI streaming to the server). So > Tony's suggestion more or less already exists, with the assumption > that you don't mind a modern-ish PC acting as an external ethernet > <-> serial adaptor. Is this SLIP or PPP? In the simpler category, devices like a Lantronix UDS-10 are a great fit for old machines. The UDS-10 is limited to one open TCP socket, but it is easy to drive using a modified Hayes command set and does not require running a TCP/IP stack on the client machine. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. -- Beethoven ------------------- From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Jun 4 10:29:49 2012 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico at farumdata.dk) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 17:29:49 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <01ff01cd4241$c49ca4c0$4dd5ee40$@camicom.com> References: <01ff01cd4241$c49ca4c0$4dd5ee40$@camicom.com> Message-ID: <3aca2f116816d09f579aeca71d946993.squirrel@farumdata.dk> > > CPU BOX 4 - unlabeled, P856 type M4M box > > > . 2 x CDD : 5111 199 78176 > > > . CDD : 5111 199 78177 > > > . CDD : 5111 199 78178 > > > . 2 x MCU3 : 5111 199 78198 (Paper tape, serial control unit fully > populated)) > > > . MMU : 5111 199 75183 (Memory Management Unit) > > > . GPC : 5111 199 79382 (Custom card) > > > > Box 4 just looks wrong. I don't know what the CDD cards are, but there > doesn't appear to be a CPU or memory in there. However, there are P856 > CPU's > in the spare cards box, and I found references to the P856 being able to > use > MOS memory as well as core, so all might not be lost here. > In the p6000 system, we also had a MMU unit. It could be used for expanding the basic memory above 32 KB, but also for relieving the main unit. It frequently happened that the power supply in the main unit could not deliver the necessary Amps, so a fully loaded main unit was a rare sight. In those cases we used the MMU for the remaining cards. As far as I remember, it accomodated extra 32 KB, a tape card and a SDLC/3780 card /Nico From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Jun 4 11:00:38 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 18:00:38 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com> References: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FCCDBA6.7030408@bluewin.ch> On 06/04/2012 03:42 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > I?ve completed a list of boards in the P800 haul: Very nice haul indeed... My P856 has one CPU PCB, and one 32kx16 core memory on a single PCB ( drivers, X & Y , sense all one one board ) Date code is 1980, the newest core memory I have. > ? FLDB : 5111 199 69667 This is the 8" floppy drive interface, you should be able to run a 50-wire flatcable directly to the drive. Regards, Jos From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 4 11:07:38 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120604080734.C95864@shell.lmi.net> > How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I have enough 96tpi "DD" > drives. I think you mix up track density and recording density, two > unrelated things. You make an important, but IRRELEVANT point. I am cognizant of the differences, and the sloppiness of the terminology, and CHOSE to attempt to reply to the original poster using the terminology that he had used. I do have sample diskettes from hundreds of machines with 96tpi "DD" drives; unfortunately, unlike Don Maslin's collection, few are "boot" disks. http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html Every variant of the terminology that we have available for these systems still permits somebody to deliberately mininterpret what is being said, or make an honest misteak in interpretation, just by having been concentrating on some other part of the elephant. OK, YOU explain to the original poster why he will or will not have problems writing Kaypro2, Apple2, Commodore diskettes using the "1.2M" drive from an IBM 5170. He will need to know about coercivity, LATER, when he selects blank media to use. But, right now, for selesting which DRIVE to mount in the case, he does NOT need to be concerned with flux transition rate, disk total capacity, options of alternate physical formats, or variant exceptions to the "standard" formats. The issue for the original poster was whether he should use a "DD" drive or an "HD" drive. Those were HIS terms. HE was not referring with "DD drive" to a 96 track per inch 80 cylinder Modified Frequency Modulated 300 Revolutions per Minute 250,000 bits per second data transfer rate drive. It is too cumbersome to fully identify each drive type by its full set of specs, so we use shorter, albeit potentially ambiguous, terms. YES, "DD drive" can refer to several other things, but was it not possible, if one wanted to, to understand what he meant? We assume that what he meant what could [even MORE sloppily, but with less confusion] be called a "360K drive from a 5150" OR a "1.2M drive from a 5170", (along with a "1.4M" 3.5" drive). It does NOT add any clarity to point out that that first drive could be used for formats ranging from about 60K to about 440K - it is SIMPLER to refer to it by its most common usage (>99% of all of them!) for 360K. Is it really necessary to include 5150 and 5170 in those names? Apparently, YES - since although there was a 100 to 1 ratio of their usage, many here will tout their exceptions, as if they were the "norm". Likewise, it does not add any clarity to point out that it is ALSO possible to have 360K on a single sided 80 cylinder system. THOSE ARE IRRELEVANT to what the original poster is trying to find out. Although, YES, they are interesting and much more FUN variants. We could also do as NeXT did, and refer to the drive by its UNFORMATTED capaciy, if we wanted to further mislead. It is still subject to DELIBERATE misinterpretation, but anybody who WANTS to understand, knows what is meant by "360K" and "1.2M" drive. YES, I had 5170s with 100tpi single sided drives, 67.5 (V usual 135tpi) 40 track 3.5 inch drives, 3", 3.25", floptical, LS120, 1.2M 8" drives, 1.4M 3.4" drives interfaced serial (RS232), parallel ("Centronics"), "IDE", and SCSI. My first 5150 ended up with 2 "360K" (SA455) drives, a "720K 5.25" (55F), a "720K 3.5" (350), an 8" (848 external) and a "1.4M 3.5" (Microsolutions "Backpack" external). One of the 455s had the write protect jumper reversed, so that it could write no-nothch diskettes (for software duplication) but would default to write-protected for ordinatry "unprotected" diskettes. NONE of this paragraph of irrelevant crap helps the original poster, in any way shape or form, with his simple question of which of two drives he should mount in the enclosure. Another poster pointed out that the original poster had referred to his diskettes as FDDs, and asked how you copy a Floppy Disk Drive. Being from a "Fantasia" generation, I can't help but visualize Mickey Mouse as The Sorcerer's Apprentice. When it came time to move out of my office, I had to sweep up LOTS of FDDs that had multiplied. I was going to say "tons", but that might not be accurate - a metric buttload. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From db at db.net Mon Jun 4 11:09:14 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 11:09:14 -0500 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...) In-Reply-To: <201206041445.q54EjOmR13369530@floodgap.com> References: <201206041445.q54EjOmR13369530@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20120604160914.GB71830@night.db.net> On Mon, Jun 04, 2012 at 07:45:24AM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > OS9 is so modular that there would be no problem in writing the device > > > manager and device drivers for a netwoek drvice. I think ethernet would I wrote a device manager and device driver years ago to give me pseudo ttys on a OS9 machine. I also had written a RAMDISK driver for OS9 I it was obsoleted by OS9 II. Fond memories. > > > have had far to high a data rate, but there are plenty of slower > > > alternatices. > > > > Sorry for delayed response, vacation intervened. > > > > http://www.cloud9tech.com/ (no affiliation, other than as a highly > > satisfied customer) does market DriveWire for the CoCo3 running Cool ! > > NitrOS-9. I have not (yet) used it, but they claim 115,200 bps on a ... > .. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 4 11:14:10 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net> References: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net> <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20120604091046.O95864@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Allison wrote: > There are two common track density 48 and 96 tpi or otherwise said > 40 and 80 cylinders. there are more tracks/cylinders to the radial inch. > Also the head width is narrower by two for the 96tpi. > . . . > . . . an excellent and accurate summary! > The problem is that marketing named them! That is SO true! > so we have single density, double density, quad density . . . and the marketing at Intertec (Superbrain) chose to call the double sided quad-density, "SUPER DENSITY"! (abbreviated "SD"!!!!) It was as though they wanted to misunderstand. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 11:31:45 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 09:31:45 -0700 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net> References: , , <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4FCC8081.8086.96C3B@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2012 at 10:15, Allison wrote: > The problem is that marketing named them! > so we have single density, double density, quad density > (mostly seen in the cp//m world), and HD never mind the > sector size variations and layout. > > I also left out the oddball drives like 35track and 100tpi. To some extent, the problem also exists in 3.5" drives. Original 3.5" drives, such as the Sony 0AD, recorded with a track spacing at 67.5 tpi, rather than today's 135 tpi. Fortunately, most people just want to read the old media, not write it. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 4 12:04:53 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCC8081.8086.96C3B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net> <4FCC8081.8086.96C3B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120604095856.A95864@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > To some extent, the problem also exists in 3.5" drives. Original 3.5" > drives, such as the Sony 0AD, recorded with a track spacing at 67.5 tpi, > rather than today's 135 tpi. Fortunately, most people just want to read > the old media, not write it. Some of those early SOny drives spun at 600 RPM, and used a 500K dtr, resulting in the same capacity and diskette format [as the 300RPM/20Kdtr), but complete hardware incompatability. The Epson Geneva PX-8 used a 40cylinder 3.5"; I have an Epson 67.5tpi drive. 3.5" had a few recording deviations - Barium-ferrite disks and 2.8M, floptical, etc. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 12:08:32 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 13:08:32 -0400 Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07 In-Reply-To: <20120604054519.GC76345@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120604054519.GC76345@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 1:45 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > There is a manual for the UC07/08 on the net, it is one of the first hits > when you try to google. Right. Found that with no problems, though their own docs describe the UC07 as a quad-height Unibus card - I'm sure that's just an ancient cut-and-paste error. All the settings are in there; that's the important part. I can check if it's strapped to share the bus with an RQDX3, a common arrangement (to keep the floppies active). I think that would make the first drive on this card DUB0: when booting to VMS, but ultimately, except for typing habits, it doesn't matter what the drive name ends up as. > Haven't found anything regarding differences > between versions jet.... I would be interested to hear any stories or if anyone happens to have Release Notes or ECO sheets for different ROM versions. ISTR the processor on this is an 8031, so it's not impossible to decompile and diff the different ROM versions, but it's probably not worth the time. >> I'm guessing there isn't a lot of info out there to attempt to see if >> it's possible to "convert" an SQ3703A to an SQ3706A in the field, but >> if anyone knows anything about both boards, I'd be game to try if it's >> EPROMs or PALs or whatever. > > Found almost nothing for them. Me either - just 3rd party and eBay sellers (with some listings under $100). > I have a board LAbeled SQ703 where the 03 is on a paper label and the SQ7 > is printed on the board. Have repaired it sometime, it is working as TMSCP > controller. It has an 10pin Connector for an Terminal to set it up on the > Interface connector side. I remember that I put the rom image from a 706 on > it (shadoo sent me one) but it doesn't work as 706. Shame it isn't that easy, but I rather expect it's a ROM and PAL difference, since MSCP and TMSCP controllers use different address ranges. Any differences in SCSI command sets from tape to disk drives would be a firmware issues; any differences in bus interaction would be (mostly?) PAL issues. > I know that there is a 739 that can make both, MSCP and TMSCP... Right. Just like the 3703A and 3706A were replaced by the more flexible 3709A. Since I don't _need_ SCSI TMSCP, it reduces my interest in laying hands on a BA4000-type chassis. I do have that KDJ11 with the S-box handles, so I'm more likely to mod that than go with an S-box (I have a stash of real DEC Qbus handles from the place where we made Qbus and Unibus boards) -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 4 12:13:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCC9752.6080701@compsys.to> References: , <1338767569.23426.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com> <20120603174242.W67443@shell.lmi.net> <4FCC9752.6080701@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20120604100732.F95864@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Just to add some complexity (or perhaps some confusion) to the situation, > the RX50 from DEC uses DD floppy media, but if I remember correctly, > has 96 tpi. I know that on a PC, the HD drive is used to read and WRITE > the RX50 floppy media using John Wilson's program "PUTR.COM". In Yes, you want use the "1.2M" ("dual mode") drive in 96tpi stepping, but but with "DD" (MFM,300RPM,250Kdtr) read/write. SOME of the 1.2M drives refuse to do that, and INSIST on switching to 48tpi when in the "low density" mode. > The RX50 has 800 blocks on one side for a total of 409,600 bytes. > If I remember correctly, the geometry is 80 tracks with 10 sectors > per track of 512 bytes per sector. Since the density is very similar > to a DD media from the PC, DEC was able to use that media on > the RX50. But I think there are 96 tpi (which requires the HD drive > on the PC) rather than 48 tpi which is what the DD PC drive uses. right 96tpi "DD" is a drive that IBM never used in USA PCs. Outside of USA, PC/JX model used it. Such drives (Teac 55F, SA465, etc.) can be easily connected to a PC for non-PC disk formats. > I I have any of the physical properties incorrect, I apologize. I just > wanted to add a bit more information to the mix and note that > the RX50 media can be read and written on a PC, but MUST > use the HD 5 1/4" PC drives BUT with DD media 360K diskette > media - which is what the RX50 uses on the actual DEC drives. > I do not know if what the PC HD 5 1/4" 1.2 M drive using > DD 360K diskettes produces matches exactly what the actual > DEC RX50 expects, but it does work in practice. It should. From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jun 4 12:35:48 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 12:35:48 -0500 Subject: Apple I on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FCCF1F4.7010503@vaxen.net> On 6/3/12 12:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I have a tuba and tried to sell it for a time and got almost no > interest. After I turned up a photo of Arnold Jacobs (late of the > Chicago Symphony) playing it, there was a flood of interest. > > Mind you, the tuba hadn't changed. Devil's Advocate: No, but if I wanted a really good tuba and believed that individual instruments vary in quality, even in the same model and lot, then the fact that Mr. Jacobs found it good would carry considerable weight. Truth: I don't get the "star factor" at all, but it's a bankable reality. Just consider the huge market for adult film actress's used underwear. Or don't.... Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 4 12:37:49 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20120604100732.F95864@shell.lmi.net> References: , <1338767569.23426.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com> <20120603174242.W67443@shell.lmi.net> <4FCC9752.6080701@compsys.to> <20120604100732.F95864@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120604103429.O95864@shell.lmi.net> > Yes, you want use the "1.2M" ("dual mode") drive in 96tpi stepping, but > but with "DD" (MFM,300RPM,250Kdtr) read/write. SOME of the 1.2M drives > refuse to do that, and INSIST on switching to 48tpi when in the "low > density" mode. . . . and, . . . some "12.M" drives do their "360K" mode as 360RPM with 300Kdata transfer rate; some do 300RPM with 250K dtr (the way "360k" drives write "DD") So, there can be further complications with both computer and drive. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 4 12:43:32 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 11:43:32 -0600 Subject: Tekniques vol1-8 online (Tektronix 405x newsletter) Message-ID: Some time ago I obtained a batch of the Tektronix 4050 series newsletter issues. I have scanned these and Al has put them up on bitsavers: I've also scanned a software catalog for 4050 series: I have some other Tekniques related items, but they are collections of reprints of articles from specific issues of Tekniques that I've already scanned above, so I considered it redundant. The last issue I had was vol. 8, no. 1. I do not know if there were other issues after that. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 12:45:56 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 10:45:56 -0700 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20120604095856.A95864@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FCC8081.8086.96C3B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120604095856.A95864@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2012 at 10:04, Fred Cisin wrote: > 3.5" had a few recording deviations - Barium-ferrite disks and 2.8M, > floptical, etc. Yeah, "DSED" - a huge flop. Then the various flopticals - 3M, Caleb, Brier... All mutually incompatible, no matter how similar they appear to be. 5.25" had the Drivetec/Kodak in various flavors. Fortunately, formatting isn't an issue, because the end-user can't. Another of those wonderful ideas that product development doesn't perceive as a liability. --Chuck From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Jun 4 14:19:31 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 21:19:31 +0200 Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07 In-Reply-To: References: <20120604054519.GC76345@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120604191931.GB25382@beast.freibergnet.de> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 1:45 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > There is a manual for the UC07/08 on the net, it is one of the first hits > > when you try to google. > > Right. Found that with no problems, though their own docs describe > the UC07 as a quad-height Unibus card - I'm sure that's just an > ancient cut-and-paste error. > > All the settings are in there; that's the important part. I can check > if it's strapped to share the bus with an RQDX3, a common arrangement > (to keep the floppies active). I think that would make the first > drive on this card DUB0: when booting to VMS, but ultimately, except > for typing habits, it doesn't matter what the drive name ends up as. Don't know for now, but it should be possible to jumper the RQDX3 as 2nd MSCP Controller to... > > > Haven't found anything regarding differences > > between versions jet.... > > I would be interested to hear any stories or if anyone happens to have > Release Notes or ECO sheets for different ROM versions. ISTR the > processor on this is an 8031, so it's not impossible to decompile and > diff the different ROM versions, but it's probably not worth the time. > > >> I'm guessing there isn't a lot of info out there to attempt to see if > >> it's possible to "convert" an SQ3703A to an SQ3706A in the field, but > >> if anyone knows anything about both boards, I'd be game to try if it's > >> EPROMs or PALs or whatever. > > > > Found almost nothing for them. > > Me either - just 3rd party and eBay sellers (with some listings under $100). This is, since there seems to be no easy way to convert them to MSCP. Like you most people don't need an TMSCP SCSI Controller. I'm using them in conjunction with some Tandberg quarter Inch drives, have install tapes build with simh for RSX11M, RT11, XXDP ans 2.11 BSD and I'm using this to transfer data between the simh on my unix pc and the PDP11s. > > > I have a board LAbeled SQ703 where the 03 is on a paper label and the SQ7 > > is printed on the board. Have repaired it sometime, it is working as TMSCP > > controller. It has an 10pin Connector for an Terminal to set it up on the > > Interface connector side. I remember that I put the rom image from a 706 on > > it (shadoo sent me one) but it doesn't work as 706. > > Shame it isn't that easy, but I rather expect it's a ROM and PAL > difference, since MSCP and TMSCP controllers use different address > ranges. Any differences in SCSI command sets from tape to disk drives > would be a firmware issues; any differences in bus interaction would > be (mostly?) PAL issues. I don't looked that cwclose to that board that I could say how the address decoder is made. It could be an register written by firmware and a comparator too, this isn't much more hassle as an programmed Pal (but I remember that I have seen many of them on that board). > > > I know that there is a 739 that can make both, MSCP and TMSCP... > > Right. Just like the 3703A and 3706A were replaced by the more flexible 3709A. ...Ahh...The SQ3703 has SBOX Handles? > > Since I don't _need_ SCSI TMSCP, it reduces my interest in laying > hands on a BA4000-type chassis. I do have that KDJ11 with the S-box > handles, so I'm more likely to mod that than go with an S-box (I have > a stash of real DEC Qbus handles from the place where we made Qbus and > Unibus boards) > > -ethan I don't have an BA4000, got an DELQA sometimes from Ebay and removed the SBOX Handles to put it in a straight 11. You don't have some of the QBus Hanldes left over? May be you remember that we build some punched universal Boards lately.. (Arghh, forgot the right description AGAIN). Have a KA630 with memory laying around too, but an PDP11 is more fun for me (don't know why). iBut I had Quasiarus running on the KA630. If I want VMS I'm booting the VS4000/90... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 14:35:34 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 15:35:34 -0400 Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07 In-Reply-To: <20120604191931.GB25382@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120604054519.GC76345@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120604191931.GB25382@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Don't know for now, but it should be possible to jumper the RQDX3 as 2nd > MSCP Controller to... It is, but then the boot ROMs can't boot up Standalone Backup for installs. > This is, since there seems to be no easy way to convert them to MSCP. > Like you most people don't need an TMSCP SCSI Controller. I'm using them in > conjunction with some Tandberg quarter Inch drives, have install tapes > build with simh for RSX11M, RT11, XXDP ans 2.11 BSD and I'm using this to > transfer data between the simh on my unix pc and the PDP11s. Right, but to most people, including me, that's a secondary use. Everybody needs disk interfaces. >> Shame it isn't that easy, but I rather expect it's a ROM and PAL >> difference > > I don't looked that cwclose to that board that I could say how the address > decoder is made. It could be an register written by firmware and a > comparator too, this isn't much more hassle as an programmed Pal (but I > remember that I have seen many of them on that board). There are at least half-a-dozen PALs. It shouldn't take long to figure out what goes with what - not exact down-to-the-gate-level reverse engineering, but at least functional grouping would be quick to do. >> > I know that there is a 739 that can make both, MSCP and TMSCP... >> >> Right. ?Just like the 3703A and 3706A were replaced by the more flexible 3709A. > > ...Ahh...The SQ3703 has SBOX Handles? Yes. > You don't have some of the QBus Hanldes left over? May be you remember that > we build some punched universal Boards lately.. (Arghh, forgot the right > description AGAIN). I have a few, not hundreds. I have a lot more hex-height handles for Unibus (and other) cards. > Have a KA630 with memory laying around too, but an PDP11 is more fun for me > (don't know why). I enjoy playing on PDP-11s, but the 64K process limit is a bit much for serious work. I've done _real_ work on VAXen. > If I want VMS I'm booting the VS4000/90... Right. I only recently got a slower (/60?) VAXstation 4000. Prior to that, I was struggling to get the SCSI patched ROMs and driver onto a VAXstation 2000. I never did get that working. I still have a lot of the VS2000 hardware including the 8-port expansion and an external MFM drive cable set. Only one ethernet option, sadly. I keep meaning to test and box up most of my VS2000 hardware and sell off the stuff I don't need, but other more important things keep me from getting it all together. Before MicroVAX3100s and VAXstation4000s got cheap and available, the MicroVAX2000 was the only way to get a small VAX at home for under $1000. That's been a few years, though. ;-) -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 13:21:18 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:21:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Jun 3, 12 04:19:59 pm Message-ID: > > > I'm pondering putting 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives in a single chassis > along with a Discferret / Kryoflux. The 3.5" can be HD with no problem. > I'm leery of the complications of DD versus HD 5.25" drives. If I > bulk-erase a DD disk and write to it with an HD drive, might there be any > problems when the disk is used again on a DD drive? Would simply > formatting the DD disk be enough? I am assumign that you are going to use the HD drive in DD mode, that is at the lower write current. In which case the difference is the number of cylinders, and thus that the 80 cylinder 'HD' drive writes a narrower track than a true 40 cylinder 'DD' one. The rules is that if you write with an 80 cylinder drive to a disk that was previosuly written ona 40 cylinder drive (this includes formatting in both cases), then there could be problems reading it on a 40 cylinder drive, because the narrower head of the 80 cylidner drive will only rewrite the middle part of the track, so the wider 40 cylidner head will see a mix of the old and new data. So : Bulk erase a disk, format it o nthe 80 cylidner drive, write to it on the 80 cylinder drive and it'll be readable on a 40 cylinder drive. You can even write to it there without prolbmes. But if you do write ot in o nthe 40 cylinder drive, do not then write to it on an 80 cylinder drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 13:23:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:23:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCB92E7.10019.20F397B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 3, 12 04:37:59 pm Message-ID: > The magnetic characteristics of 5.25" media are very different > between 2D and HD recording modes. I wouldn't recommend mixing > things up. 2D on 2D media; HD on HD media. Ture enough. But I assumed he as goign to be useing a PC-type HD drive (lik the original IBM 1/2M drive) and thus would be using the correct write crurent. In which case the coercivity difference is catered for. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 13:26:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:26:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 3, 12 05:17:38 pm Message-ID: > Obviously, "HD" means something different to me--500kbit/sec MFM data > rate at 360 RPM recording, versus 250kbit/sec MFM data rate at 300 > RPM. No, I'll agree with that. But most 'HD' drives are reakky 'HD capable' drives and can also be switeched (pin 2, isn't it?) to correctly write to DD media. The only remaining problem is the track width. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 13:49:07 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:49:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Jun 4, 12 10:51:01 am Message-ID: > How does one copy a Floppy Disk Drive? ;-) I would think by using measuring tools on the parts of the 'source' drive and then using machien tools, metal casting facilities, injection moulding machines, PCB fabrictiaon, soldering irons, etc to make said parts and aseemble the 'destination' drive. [could not resist] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 13:55:53 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:55:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <01ff01cd4241$c49ca4c0$4dd5ee40$@camicom.com> from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jun 4, 12 01:04:09 pm Message-ID: > . 2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859) > > > . 3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859) What technology does this CPU use? 2900 bit-slice, ASICs, or what? The P854 CPU is 3 cards, I think, one of which is the MMU (and one of the others an IOP?, I would have to check the manuals). The P851 CPU is a signle board, using Philips bitslice ICs... > . 3 x MCU2 : 5111 199 7818X (Line printer, card reader control unit) > > > . 5 x MCU3 : 5111 199 7744X (Paper tape, serial control unit > (partially populated)) You might find the P851 tech mnaul Vol 2 is useful here. > I'm hoping CDD means Cartridge Disc Drive, and that these are the > controllers for the X1215 disk drives. Althoguh I don't have the drive, I think I have the X1215 controlelr in my P854. From what I rememebr it's got an 8X305 chip on it, which should be easy to spot. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 14:23:04 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 20:23:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Jun 4, 12 09:00:16 am Message-ID: > http://www.cloud9tech.com/ (no affiliation, other than as a highly > satisfied customer) does market DriveWire for the CoCo3 running > NitrOS-9. I have not (yet) used it, but they claim 115,200 bps on a > CoCo3. There is a corresponding server that runs on the (Windows/Mac What hardware does it use at the CoCo end? It can't use the bit-banged serial port (obviously), and none of the traditional RS232 modules would go at that speed. Is there some special serial board for the CoCo (using a PC-like serial chip, perhaps). > OS X/Linux) other end of the serial wire, and they claim TCP/IP and > several dependent services (telnet, MIDI streaming to the server). So > Tony's suggestion more or less already exists, with the assumption THis does not suprise me, it wouldn';t be that difficult to do. OS-9 is really, really, hackable... > that you don't mind a modern-ish PC acting as an external ethernet > <-> serial adaptor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 13:59:49 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:59:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Philips P800 family minis In-Reply-To: <020401cd4242$649b8180$2dd28480$@gmail.com> from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jun 4, 12 01:08:37 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, > > >> - 3 x P859 (one looks like the board set is incomplete) > > Am I right in thinking that his is related to the P854? > > Yes, from what I've been able to glance from the manuals, the P859 is the > same as the P854, but build on large 19" rack sized cards (M-type cards) > rather than double eurocards (E-type cards) Ah, right... I'd assuemd youy had a lot of double eurcards... The P854 is certianly double Eurocards. I think the CPU set is 3 boards, I would have to check what's on each board. > >> - 1 x card cage with 6 cards. No idea what this is yet. > > Maybe soem specail I/O unig. Philips appaer to ahve made a lot of realtime > I/O bords, ADCs, DACs, etc. > > Turns out to be an expansion chassis that gives you space for 6 more cards. When I got my P851 nad P854, I was given a chassis like that full of 'spare' boards, mostly seiral, but with I think an ADC or DAC amongst them. I was also give a few prototyping board (dobule eurocards with a wirewrap arean and the bus interface logic pre-built, one of which was never used. I always intended to make a paper tape interface on one of them... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 4 14:51:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 20:51:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 4, 12 10:45:56 am Message-ID: > 5.25" had the Drivetec/Kodak in various flavors. Fortunately, > formatting isn't an issue, because the end-user can't. Another of > those wonderful ideas that product development doesn't perceive as a > liability. I've come across an Epson 5.25" floppy drive with an ST412-like interface. Apparently it gets about 5MBytes o na disk. I don;t think it was servotracked (the positioner is a nromal stepper motor) and I think the heads are in contact with the media when it's in use. Anyone know anything about it? -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 15:08:45 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 16:08:45 -0400 Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91A8E63F-02BC-4CDF-AB0D-908CB5D215CC@gmail.com> On Jun 4, 2012, at 2:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> How does one copy a Floppy Disk Drive? ;-) > > I would think by using measuring tools on the parts of the 'source' drive > and then using machien tools, metal casting facilities, injection > moulding machines, PCB fabrictiaon, soldering irons, etc to make said > parts and aseemble the 'destination' drive. Or, if you are lucky enough to own a starship, simply use your replicator. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 4 15:46:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 13:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks In-Reply-To: <91A8E63F-02BC-4CDF-AB0D-908CB5D215CC@gmail.com> References: <91A8E63F-02BC-4CDF-AB0D-908CB5D215CC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120604134258.Q95864@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, David Riley wrote: > Or, if you are lucky enough to own a starship, simply use your replicator. When you get a chance, would you mind replicating your replicator? Howzbout: an automated microtome connected to a 3D printer? "Fax me a couple of FDDs" From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 16:32:39 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 14:32:39 -0700 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 3, 12 05:17:38 pm, Message-ID: <4FCCC707.18765.11CE4CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2012 at 19:26, Tony Duell wrote: > No, I'll agree with that. But most 'HD' drives are reakky 'HD capable' > drives and can also be switeched (pin 2, isn't it?) to correctly write > to DD media. The only remaining problem is the track width. I've got a couple of Matsushita (I think) drives that are HD-only-- basically shrunk down 8" drives. Apparently used in some PC98 systems. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 16:36:46 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 14:36:46 -0700 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 4, 12 10:45:56 am, Message-ID: <4FCCC7FE.23577.120A956@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2012 at 20:51, Tony Duell wrote: > I've come across an Epson 5.25" floppy drive with an ST412-like > interface. Apparently it gets about 5MBytes o na disk. I don;t think > it was servotracked (the positioner is a nromal stepper motor) and I > think the heads are in contact with the media when it's in use. Anyone > know anything about it? No, I don't think I've seen one. But the Drivetek 320 drives had two edge connectors--one 34-position, the other 8-position, in an arrangement such that you could make contact with both using a 50 position edge connector. Embedded servo. I wonder if the Epson also uses that... Later Kodak drives don't have the second connector. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 4 16:43:56 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 14:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCCC707.18765.11CE4CC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 3, 12 05:17:38 pm, <4FCCC707.18765.11CE4CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120604144148.B95864@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a couple of Matsushita (I think) drives that are HD-only-- > basically shrunk down 8" drives. Apparently used in some PC98 > systems. First HD drive that I got (swap-meet) was a Mitsubishi 4854, but unlike any 4854 that I've seen since. In addition to making no attempt at "dual mode", it had a 50 pin connector. I guess that the early development of HD 5.25 was intended as drop-in 8" replacement. From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 17:21:53 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 18:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...) In-Reply-To: <201206041445.q54EjOmR13369530@floodgap.com> References: <201206041445.q54EjOmR13369530@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> OS9 is so modular that there would be no problem in writing the device >>> manager and device drivers for a netwoek drvice. I think ethernet would >>> have had far to high a data rate, but there are plenty of slower >>> alternatices. >> >> Sorry for delayed response, vacation intervened. >> >> http://www.cloud9tech.com/ (no affiliation, other than as a highly >> satisfied customer) does market DriveWire for the CoCo3 running >> NitrOS-9. I have not (yet) used it, but they claim 115,200 bps on a >> CoCo3. There is a corresponding server that runs on the (Windows/Mac >> OS X/Linux) other end of the serial wire, and they claim TCP/IP and >> several dependent services (telnet, MIDI streaming to the server). So >> Tony's suggestion more or less already exists, with the assumption >> that you don't mind a modern-ish PC acting as an external ethernet >> <-> serial adaptor. > > Is this SLIP or PPP? Neither. It's a well thought-out (and documented!) protocol for interface between small 8-bit machines and modern hardware. There's nothing specific to the CoCo - that just happens to be the first implementation. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 17:23:38 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 18:23:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> http://www.cloud9tech.com/ (no affiliation, other than as a highly >> satisfied customer) does market DriveWire for the CoCo3 running >> NitrOS-9. I have not (yet) used it, but they claim 115,200 bps on a >> CoCo3. There is a corresponding server that runs on the (Windows/Mac > > What hardware does it use at the CoCo end? It can't use the bit-banged > serial port (obviously), and none of the traditional RS232 modules would > go at that speed. Is there some special serial board for the CoCo (using > a PC-like serial chip, perhaps). Actually, it does use the bit-banger serial port and it does communicate at 115.2kps quite reliably. The author of the drivewire server tells me that with a small hardware mod they're able to do 230kbps. Steve -- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 4 17:34:05 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 15:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...) In-Reply-To: from Steven Hirsch at "Jun 4, 12 06:21:53 pm" Message-ID: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> > > Is this SLIP or PPP? > > Neither. It's a well thought-out (and documented!) protocol for interface > between small 8-bit machines and modern hardware. There's nothing > specific to the CoCo - that just happens to be the first implementation. I just looked at it on sourceforge. It seems like the same setup of a Lantronix UDS or Wiznet-type device. Those are a little more portable. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It would have been funnier if I didn't have to think. -- Ashley Mills ------ From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 17:47:29 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 15:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for insights leading to the acquisition of Intel Multibus boxen Message-ID: <1338850049.70721.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> formerly known as chrism3667 at yahoo.com I need help. I really need help. I'm so in straits I'm watching Sara Mclachlan vids. Yeah I won't be denied. From abs at absd.org Mon Jun 4 18:07:05 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 00:07:05 +0100 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP Message-ID: In case anyone finds this of interest/amusement... Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP What to do with a VAX workstation, based on an architecture first released by Digital Equipment Corporation in 1977 and finally closed out by Compaq at the end of the last millennium? The obvious option would be to dig out an ancient copy of VMS, or maybe an early UNIX tape, but what then? Could it run the latest Apache or screen, and how will I be able to connect it to a native IPv6 network (when we finally get there :) ? As an alternative, lets see if a current OS and software can run on a machine with an architecture older than some of the *parents* of modern developers... [continued at http://netbsd0.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/retrocomputing-with-vamp-stack-vax.html ] From jon at jonworld.com Mon Jun 4 18:12:58 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:12:58 -0400 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 7:07 PM, David Brownlee wrote: > In case anyone finds this of interest/amusement... > > > Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP I've been debating doing this with my MicroVAX 2. Hmmmmm. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 4 19:45:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 20:45:53 -0400 Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07 In-Reply-To: <20120604191931.GB25382@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120604054519.GC76345@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120604191931.GB25382@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FCD56C1.1080009@neurotica.com> On 06/04/2012 03:19 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Don't know for now, but it should be possible to jumper the RQDX3 as 2nd > MSCP Controller to... This is definitely possible; I do it all the time. Here are the relevant jumper settings: Card-edge connector pointing down, horizontal row of jumpers: 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 ------------------------------- 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 CSR=772150 (primary) 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 CSR=760334 (secondary) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 20:08:02 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 21:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...) In-Reply-To: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Is this SLIP or PPP? >> >> Neither. It's a well thought-out (and documented!) protocol for interface >> between small 8-bit machines and modern hardware. There's nothing >> specific to the CoCo - that just happens to be the first implementation. > > I just looked at it on sourceforge. It seems like the same setup of a > Lantronix UDS or Wiznet-type device. Those are a little more portable. In some respects. But those don't give you the virtual disk drive services that drivewire offers. -- From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 21:45:12 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:45:12 -0700 Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > My Dilog boards are, according to the paper labels in the upper-left > corner, SQ3703As. ?One is marked Rev G and looks clean. ?The other is > a Rev E with a few green ECO wires (the Rev E board has an EPROM > marked "Rev G", and the Rev G board has firmware marked "Rev H". > > I'm guessing there isn't a lot of info out there to attempt to see if > it's possible to "convert" an SQ3703A to an SQ3706A in the field, but > if anyone knows anything about both boards, I'd be game to try if it's > EPROMs or PALs or whatever. > > -ethan On my SQ3706A, REV H, I have the following socketed GAL devices: 13U 92771A 18U 92769A 19U 92773A 26U 92774A 34U 92770A 57U 92775B 74U 92772A The firmware is U46 92734, REV L 57U is the only device that is not a Nat Semi GAL, and the only device with a 'B' suffix. That plus its location adjacent to the DILOG QBIC ASIC leads me to guess that device is most likely the CSR decode device. I suppose it wouldn't take much to check the pins of this device and see if they lead to the BDAL lines through the AM2908 quad bus tranceivers. What part labels do you have on the socketed GAL devices on your SQ3703A? Do they happen to match the part labels that I have on my SQ3706A except for U46? I might not take too much to figure out how to convert a TMSCP SQ3703A into an MSCP SQ3706A. Ok, I'm now getting lined up to acquire an SQ3703A. When it arrives I'll compare the two and see if I can figure out how to do a conversion as I did with CMD CQD200 and CQD220 boards. -Glen From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Jun 4 23:42:09 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 06:42:09 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCD8E21.40608@bluewin.ch> On 06/04/2012 08:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> . 2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859) >> >> >> . 3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859) > What technology does this CPU use? 2900 bit-slice, ASICs, or what? The > P854 CPU is 3 cards, I think, one of which is the MMU (and one of the > others an IOP?, I would have to check the manuals). The P851 CPU is a > signle board, using Philips bitslice ICs... > The P856/P857CPU uses a single PCB with a 74181 ALU and microcode in proms. Jos From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon Jun 4 23:42:21 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 21:42:21 -0700 Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles Message-ID: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> For the past 5 years or so I have been collecting references on early 8-bit microprocessors, with an emphasis on the Motorola MC6800. The best source is trade magazines from the mid-1970s. I have a reasonable collection of McGraw-Hill's Electronics and a few issues of Electronic Design and EDN. I am old enough that I read all of these when they were new. I got a bunch from eBay and another bundle from Steven Stengel on this list. I have not ventured over to the University of Washington yet, they have a good collection. (I can scan my individual issues at home.) Motorola did not chronicle their microprocessor development like Intel did. MOS Technology has Chuck Peddle telling an alternate reality version of the events. Chuck's enthusiastic promotion of the 6502 in 1975 was responsible for its success and his story has improved with 35 years of retelling. Rereading these magazines gives a better understanding of what really happened. Did you know that the Motorola 6800 and Intel 8080 both had their introductory articles in the April 18, 1974 issue of Electronics? I have uploaded a selection of articles to my website. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Microprocessors/Microprocessor_History.htm There is one issue with a 6800 article that I have not found is the November 20, 1974 issue of EDN, "A very complete chip set joins the great microprocessor race" starting on page 87. Has anyone got it? I wrote the Motorola 6800 article on Wikipedia and just updated the MOS Technology 6502 article. Michael Holley From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jun 5 00:10:34 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 22:10:34 -0700 Subject: Tekniques vol1-8 online (Tektronix 405x newsletter) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCD94CA.60202@mail.msu.edu> On 6/4/2012 10:43 AM, Richard wrote: > Some time ago I obtained a batch of the Tektronix 4050 series > newsletter issues. I have scanned these and Al has put them up on > bitsavers: > > I've also scanned a software catalog for 4050 series: > > > I have some other Tekniques related items, but they are collections of > reprints of articles from specific issues of Tekniques that I've > already scanned above, so I considered it redundant. > > The last issue I had was vol. 8, no. 1. I do not know if there were > other issues after that. Very cool! Thanks for getting these out there! (I needed an excuse to get my 4051 out again...) - Josh From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 00:54:09 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 22:54:09 -0700 Subject: 25 RL02K Carts up near Portland, Or In-Reply-To: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4FCD9F01.7000002@gmail.com> I have nothing to do with this but, ran across it searching Craigslist. http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/sys/3058089196.html Here's the text: "I have for sale a few vintage data cartridges. They are 10mb and in good used condition.. text 503.891.3115.. price is $25 each or all 25 for $400" From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 5 01:11:48 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 00:11:48 -0600 Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles In-Reply-To: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> Message-ID: In article <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>, "Michael Holley" writes: > For the past 5 years or so I have been collecting references on early 8-bit > microprocessors, with an emphasis on the Motorola MC6800. [...] The following terminals are built with the 6800: There may be more, but that's all I've been able to identify so far. I have one of the Perkin-Elmer terminals (a Fox 1100, IIRC) and have been meaning to take some better pictures of it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 5 01:21:29 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 00:21:29 -0600 Subject: Aesthedes Message-ID: We've discussed Aesthedes here before and I finally got the brochure that came with it scanned and uploaded to bitsavers: It clearly shows main system and describes it in general terms (plant not included). Documentation for the Aesthedes is in the scan pipeline. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jun 5 01:34:27 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 23:34:27 -0700 Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles In-Reply-To: References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> On 6/4/2012 11:11 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>, > "Michael Holley" writes: > >> For the past 5 years or so I have been collecting references on early 8-bit >> microprocessors, with an emphasis on the Motorola MC6800. [...] > The following terminals are built with the 6800: > > > > > > > There may be more, but that's all I've been able to identify so far. > I have one of the Perkin-Elmer terminals (a Fox 1100, IIRC) and have > been meaning to take some better pictures of it. I'll be pedantic and note that the Tektronix 4051 isn't really a terminal, it's a general-purpose computer (with BASIC built in). But I'm sure it could also act as a pretty decent terminal with the right software :). Josh From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 01:58:08 2012 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 02:58:08 -0400 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: NetBSD runs on VAX, and has support for running a.out binaries from 4.3BSD. NetBSD also includes a IPv6 stack (KAME), and they have the best cross-platform source-based package management system, pkgsrc. Aside from how you're going to install it (and you're going to need, from the VAX's perspective, a giant hard drive - 200-400MB is what the base system alone will need), you'll also need a *lot* of patience while Apache and friends compile. Good news, though, your stuff won't compile to mind-boggling (even for modern machines) large binaries because NetBSD/vax has VAX support in it's ELF ld.elf_so. Don't know what the virtual memory subsystem is like for NetBSD/vax, but if it's anywhere as good as Linux or any *BSD on modern machines, you'll have copy-on-write fork()s and libraries that share read-only segments across unrelated main executables, which will be extremely useful in an environment strapped for free RAM. On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 7:07 PM, David Brownlee wrote: > > In case anyone finds this of interest/amusement... > > > > > > Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP > > I've been debating doing this with my MicroVAX 2. Hmmmmm. > From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 02:07:22 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 00:07:22 -0700 Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles In-Reply-To: References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jun 4, 2012 11:15 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > The following terminals are built with the 6800: > > > > > > > There may be more, but that's all I've been able to identify so far. There is also the EXORterm 155. I just opened mine up to confirm it uses a 6800 (but not a 6845 CRT controller). I've never found much info on the EXORterm. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 5 02:29:03 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 01:29:03 -0600 Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles In-Reply-To: <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <4FCDA873.1030407 at mail.msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > I'll be pedantic and note that the Tektronix 4051 isn't really a > terminal, it's a general-purpose computer (with BASIC built in). But > I'm sure it could also act as a pretty decent terminal with the right > software :). There's a continuum between classic "glass tty" terminals on one end and full blown personal computers on the other. Tektronix wasn't the only manufacturer to recognize this. Add local storage and some sort of operating system (BASIC in ROM will do) to a terminal and you have a personal computer. On the terminals wiki I have a category for terminals like this: There is also that middle ground where the terminal has local storage, but no local programming environment: Most terminals that had local processing had local storage, but not always. Some were intended to be locally programmable by downloading a program from the host. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jun 5 02:44:36 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 00:44:36 -0700 Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles In-Reply-To: References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> On 6/5/2012 12:29 AM, Richard wrote: > In article<4FCDA873.1030407 at mail.msu.edu>, > Josh Dersch writes: > >> I'll be pedantic and note that the Tektronix 4051 isn't really a >> terminal, it's a general-purpose computer (with BASIC built in). But >> I'm sure it could also act as a pretty decent terminal with the right >> software :). > There's a continuum between classic "glass tty" terminals on one end > and full blown personal computers on the other. Tektronix wasn't the > only manufacturer to recognize this. Add local storage and some sort > of operating system (BASIC in ROM will do) to a terminal and you have > a personal computer. Sure, but the 4051 doesn't really sit in the "slightly modified terminal" mold -- it didn't come with RS-232 connectivity built in (it had GPIB and a pointer input, IIRC). RS-232 was an optional add-on, as was the software that allowed it to behave as a terminal. The 4051 was a built to be a computer first, and was sold as a "Graphic Computing System." (http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Tektronix/Tektronix.4051.1976.102646254.pdf) It may possibly have started at Tek as a "hey, let's take a 401x terminal and make a computer out of it" but I don't really understand why that means the end result is considered a Terminal in any way (or why it's useful to categorize it in such a way). (And in this case, did any other Tek terminals prior to (or after?) the 4051 use a 6800? Wouldn't the lack of any such beast point to the 4051 as being purpose-built as a computer, and not the evolution of a terminal design?) - Josh > > On the terminals wiki I have a category for terminals like this: > > > There is also that middle ground where the terminal has local storage, > but no local programming environment: > > > Most terminals that had local processing had local storage, but not > always. Some were intended to be locally programmable by downloading > a program from the host. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jun 5 04:04:10 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:04:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net> References: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net> <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Allison wrote: > On 06/04/2012 04:54 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >> How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I have enough 96tpi "DD" >> drives. I think you mix up track density and recording density, two >> unrelated things. > > There are two common track density 48 and 96 tpi or otherwise said > 40 and 80 cylinders. there are more tracks/cylinders to the radial inch. > Also the head width is narrower by two for the 96tpi. > > Recording density is experssed in FRPI Flux Reversals per Inch. > > The problem with floppies is that for 5.25 you had: [...] I know that all very well, it's not to me that you have to explain it ;-) Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jun 5 04:07:31 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:07:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <4FCCDBA6.7030408@bluewin.ch> References: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com> <4FCCDBA6.7030408@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Jos Dreesen wrote: >> ? FLDB : 5111 199 69667 > > This is the 8" floppy drive interface, you should be able to run a 50-wire > flatcable directly to the drive. Yes, but attention! This is *not* the Shugart layout; instead it's CDC proprietary. You need to build an adapter in order to attach standard Shugart drives (I've built one for our FLDB). And the FLDB (at least ours) is single-density FM only (26 spt. 128 bytes/sect.) Christian PS: Still looking for a floppy based OS. From abs at absd.org Tue Jun 5 04:25:57 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:25:57 +0100 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 June 2012 07:58, Kirn Gill wrote: > NetBSD runs on VAX, and has support for running a.out binaries from 4.3BSD. > > NetBSD also includes a IPv6 stack (KAME), and they have the best > cross-platform source-based package management system, pkgsrc. > > Aside from how you're going to install it (and you're going to need, from > the VAX's perspective, a giant hard drive - 200-400MB is what the base > system alone will need), you'll also need a *lot* of patience while Apache > and friends compile. Good news, though, your stuff won't compile to > mind-boggling (even for modern machines) large binaries because NetBSD/vax > has VAX support in it's ELF ld.elf_so. Don't know what the virtual memory > subsystem is like for NetBSD/vax, but if it's anywhere as good as Linux or > any *BSD on modern machines, you'll have copy-on-write fork()s and > libraries that share read-only segments across unrelated main executables, > which will be extremely useful in an environment strapped for free RAM. The 4000/90 feels quite performant under NetBSD (as well it should being a 40 VUP machine :), though gcc is slow compiling c and just *painful* compiling c++. Setting pkgsrc to generate bzip compressed packages rather than gzip is also a poor choice. NetBSD ships with a tiny httpd, and for personal preference I would have run nginx rather than apache, but that would have broken the acronym. The NetBSD distribution itself is obviously trivial to cross compile from pretty much any POSIX compliant system (I use my Thinkpad), and for those who prefer to spend their VAX cycles executing non-compiler code there should be a set of binary pkgsrc packages available after the netbsd-6 release (probably trickling in and completing quite some time after the release, you know how it is) If anyone would like a test shell account on wopr, just drop me an ssh public key (unless you regard ssh keys as the spawn of the devil in which case something else could be arranged). > On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > >> I've been debating doing this with my MicroVAX 2. Hmmmmm. >> How much memory & disk does it have? I lost my uVaxII a long time ago & have not been able to locate another :( From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jun 5 04:28:04 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:28:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20120604080734.C95864@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net> <20120604080734.C95864@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >> How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I have enough 96tpi "DD" >> drives. I think you mix up track density and recording density, two >> unrelated things. > > You make an important, but IRRELEVANT point. Now that's the dumbest excuse I've read in a long time. > I am cognizant of the differences, and the sloppiness of the terminology, > and CHOSE to attempt to reply to the original poster using the > terminology that he had used. I do have sample diskettes from hundreds So he won't be able to learn the correct terminology as soon as possible. > OK, YOU explain to the original poster why he will or will not have > problems writing Kaypro2, Apple2, Commodore diskettes using the "1.2M" > drive from an IBM 5170. He will need to know about coercivity, LATER, We won't have any problem if the target system uses 96 tpi drives too. I have some 80 track Apple2 drives, and the SFD1001 is 96tpi as well. So he could use (or even will have to use) that drive to write those kind of disks. The whole point is that you can't give a definite answer without knowing the details of the source system (where the disks are written) and the target system (where they are to be used). > when he selects blank media to use. But, right now, for selesting which > DRIVE to mount in the case, he does NOT need to be concerned with flux > transition rate, disk total capacity, options of alternate physical > formats, or variant exceptions to the "standard" formats. Why not? Doesn't he have the right to learn those things? This thread has enough simple answers; why not give an additional more exhaustive answer to the matter? > The issue for the original poster was whether he should use a "DD" drive > or an "HD" drive. Those were HIS terms. HE was not referring with "DD The issue of the OP was no issue at all. If I read that correctly, he simply wants to read files off of standard MS-DOS disks. So that involves a simple trial-and-error step in order to determine whether a standard drive can read those disks or not. > YES, "DD drive" can refer to several other things, but was it not > possible, if one wanted to, to understand what he meant? Sure, he wants to read bog standard MS-DOS disks. So the answer is: Just get a drive and try it. And BTW, usually you can recognise "HD" floppies fairly easily because most don't have the hub reinforcement ring. And next: Usually the characteristics are written on the disk label. For "HD" disks, here are some examples: "HD" floppies Disky HD 2 (Doebbelin&Boeder) 2S/HD 96tpi (BASF EXTRA) MD2-HD Double Sided High Density Soft-Sectored (Verbatim Verex) "DD" floppies diskette 2D96 (Doebbelin&Boeder disky) MD2D Double sided/Double Density/48TPI (Fuji Film) > Another poster pointed out that the original poster had referred to his > diskettes as FDDs, and asked how you copy a Floppy Disk Drive. Being from > a "Fantasia" generation, I can't help but visualize Mickey Mouse as The Oh come on! That was me, and there was a smiley. Sorry, but you really give your nick name "Grumpy Ol' Fred" all honours! Christian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 04:31:55 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 06:31:55 -0300 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP References: Message-ID: <0ae301cd42fe$3893a920$6500a8c0@tababook> > If anyone would like a test shell account on wopr, just drop me an ssh ^^^^ Wow! Does it play chess? Tic-tac-toe? Global Thermonuclear War? :oD From abs at absd.org Tue Jun 5 04:46:22 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:46:22 +0100 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: <0ae301cd42fe$3893a920$6500a8c0@tababook> References: <0ae301cd42fe$3893a920$6500a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On 5 June 2012 10:31, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> If anyone would like a test shell account on wopr, just drop me an ssh > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ^^^^ > ? Wow! > ? Does it play chess? Tic-tac-toe? Global Thermonuclear War? :oD Well, it has a 'falken' login which asks "Would you like to play a game?" Does anyone know of a *nix compatible Tic-tac-toe source? :) From iamcamiel at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 05:41:33 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 12:41:33 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: <01ff01cd4241$c49ca4c0$4dd5ee40$@camicom.com> from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jun 4, 12 01:04:09 pm Message-ID: <02a001cd4307$c763f020$562bd060$@gmail.com> > > . 2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859) > > . 3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859) > > What technology does this CPU use? 2900 bit-slice, ASICs, or what? The > P854 CPU is 3 cards, I think, one of which is the MMU (and one of the > others an IOP?, I would have to check the manuals). The P851 CPU is > a signle board, using Philips bitslice ICs... 2900 bit-slice. > > I'm hoping CDD means Cartridge Disc Drive, and that these are the > > controllers for the X1215 disk drives. > > Althoguh I don't have the drive, I think I have the X1215 controlelr in my > P854. From what I rememebr it's got an 8X305 chip on it, which should > be easy to spot. The card I suspect is the controller is labeled "5111 199 7817 CDD". The cable that connects to the X1215 is labeled "X1215 CDD UP" on the top side. The wires match up with the used contact fingers on the CDD board. This card has 178 14 and 16 pin chips on it, all 74xx logic except for four that are marked "F 9301 DC". Also an oscillator circuit built around a 10MHz quartz crystal (a multiple of the 2.5 MHz data clock used in the X1215). It also has 10 3-pin jumper blocks without any legend to it. Cheers, Camiel From iamcamiel at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 07:36:04 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 14:36:04 +0200 Subject: Philips P800 family minis References: <4FCA7B2D.1010805@otter.se> Message-ID: <02a701cd4317$c66ffff0$534fffd0$@gmail.com> I took one of the P859 boxes to check out. Power supplies turned out to be good, so I put in one of the P859 CPU cards (CP7RA). The fluorescent display briefly displayed "8.", followed by "000000". The expected output, according to the manual, is "ooFFFC", after the CPU has run a first self-test. I swapped out the CPU with one of the other ones, and this one does give me "ooFFFC". Hit the "0" button simultaneously with the "TEST" button to run the microdiagnostics, and got an indication that it failed on accessing memory. I plugged in a memory board, and now it passes all self-tests successfully (display "ooFF04"). So, at least this cpu and this memory board appear to be OK so far. I can push the "IPL" button, and using "INST" I can step through the IPL code (the listing is provided in the manual, so you have a good idea of what's going on). Off course, I'd like to get it to boot something, and the only media I have are the fixed platters in the three X1215's, and the 10 X1215 cartridges. These are labeled as follows: - DOM 210 & 211 for X1215 update P800 testprograms. 27-09-'84 R.v.d.Heyden. - X1215 IPL 63C2 Testprograms update 85-12-18 DOM9A/02 IT/10, DOM9C/02 IT/11 Userid: SDAPRO s:$load (for running testprograms) - SAG3 KERNEL 3 MULTIBASIC - DOM_HARRY OLDREL old sources of release 01-10-82 - TRAINING 004 P.H.Kraaijeveld - Service pack 1 "various programmes" - DISK Unit 1 - TP00 Test Pack - P800 (X1215) - Philips (unlabeled) The two cartridges labeled "testprograms" look promising; especially since instructions on how to run them are included. Of course, I want to make sure that the disk drive doesn't damage cartridges before I load these, so I'll test the drives with an the unlabeled Philips cartridge first. I'm wondering of the "TP00 Test Pack" is the "Servicing disk-pack" mentioned in the service manual. So, I'd really like to get at least one cartridge drive running, so I opened one up. There was a bit of dust inside, but not too much, and the disk compartment seems clean. However, I discovered a problem on the undersize of the drive. The drive belt is made out of cloth or nylon, covered in an orange substance (probably rubber). The rubber comes off in flakes, and a lot of the gooey stuff is stuck on the pulleys. All three drives suffer from this condition. I need to find a replacement for these. The belts are a little over 1/2 inch wide, and the length of the cloth as measured is 35-1/8 inches. I'm figuring I need a belt with a 35 inch inside circumference. The service manual only lists a Philips part number, no dimensions for the belt. Any idea where to get replacement belts? Cheers, Camiel From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 5 06:44:34 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 04:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...) In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>>> Is this SLIP or PPP? >>> >>> Neither. It's a well thought-out (and documented!) protocol for interface >>> between small 8-bit machines and modern hardware. There's nothing >>> specific to the CoCo - that just happens to be the first implementation. >> >> I just looked at it on sourceforge. It seems like the same setup of a >> Lantronix UDS or Wiznet-type device. Those are a little more portable. > > In some respects. But those don't give you the virtual disk drive services > that drivewire offers. For the Commodore users out there, you might want to look at the Comet from http://www.commodoreserver.com. They've got a new driver out that allows for a 38.4k transfer rate on the USER port, which is a pretty big deal on a Commodore 64. I've got a Comet and it works VERY well. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From iamcamiel at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 08:32:07 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:32:07 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com> <4FCCDBA6.7030408@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >>> ? FLDB : 5111 199 69667 >> This is the 8" floppy drive interface, you should be able to run a 50-wire >> flatcable directly to the drive. > Yes, but attention! This is *not* the Shugart layout; instead it's CDC > proprietary. You need to build an adapter in order to attach standard > Shugart drives (I've built one for our FLDB). And the FLDB (at least ours) > is single-density FM only (26 spt. 128 bytes/sect.) Going through the manuals I have on CDC drives, I already noticed that the 50-pin pinout is different from the SA800 standard. The exact type of drive I have (BR8A8A is not mentioned, although various BR8Axx models are. So, it looks like I have four different types of floppydisk controller: - FLDB (8", built around 2 2901 bit slices) - F1MB (8", built around N8X300I + N8X330N) - modified F1MB (5-1/4", built around N8X300I + N8X330N) - F1MBY (8", built around N8X300I + N8X330N) The F1MB is described in my manuals, it's a controller for CDC 9404 or 9406 flexible 8" disk drives. It also contains the logic to control a system operator panel (SOP). The F1MBY appears to be the same controller, but with out the SOP interface. Now I need to find out if any of them are a good fit for the CDC BR8A8A disk drives that I got. Does anyone have any documentation on the FLDB card? Tony, are you sure that the controller you thought was for X1215 cartridge disc drives wasn't instead an F1MB 8" floppy controller? Cheers, Camiel From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 10:28:26 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:28:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...) In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>>>> Is this SLIP or PPP? >>>> >>>> Neither. It's a well thought-out (and documented!) protocol for >>>> interface >>>> between small 8-bit machines and modern hardware. There's nothing >>>> specific to the CoCo - that just happens to be the first implementation. >>> >>> I just looked at it on sourceforge. It seems like the same setup of a >>> Lantronix UDS or Wiznet-type device. Those are a little more portable. >> >> In some respects. But those don't give you the virtual disk drive services >> that drivewire offers. > > For the Commodore users out there, you might want to look at the Comet from > http://www.commodoreserver.com. They've got a new driver out that allows for > a 38.4k transfer rate on the USER port, which is a pretty big deal on a > Commodore 64. I've got a Comet and it works VERY well. Interesting, but it requires: a) The purchase of a $50+ piece of hardware b) That you store all your images on their web site. DriveWire requires that you build a single cable (peanut expenditure) and let's you store things on your own computer. Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites. Steve -- From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 5 10:28:26 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 09:28:26 -0600 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was really hoping the V in the acronym was going to be VMS. It's just another *nix box unless you're running VMS. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Tue Jun 5 10:30:34 2012 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 07:30:34 -0800 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: <083901cd422d$5fcb4150$1f61c3f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com> So, what's the difference between a BC19s and a BC18z? My suspicion is that it's either mechanical, or cosmetic if they're electrically equivalent . . . Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > Sent: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:38:07 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > > For the record, it turns out that the BC19S cable also works on a VCB02. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] >> Sent: 03 June 2012 18:59 >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >> Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables >> >> Thanks Glen, that looks like a really useful reference. >> >> Regards >> >> Rob >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >>> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick >>> Sent: 03 June 2012 18:40 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables >>> >>> One last reply on this topic, this is a good reference page: >>> >>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html >>> >>> You might have to refer to any pinout information available in the >>> VCB02 and VS3100 manuals to determine if there are any functional >>> differences in the BC18Z and BC19S cables. >>> >>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html#bc19s >>> >>> BC19S Cable for Color Monitor >>> >>> BC19S >>> >>> Description: >>> >>> VAXstation 3100 Color monitor cable, 10 feet long. >>> >>> Specification: >>> >>> 15-way D-type, female connector with fixing screws at the system end, >>> and connector block with screw fixing at the monitor end. The >>> connector block has the following connectors: >>> >>> * three BNC male connectors, on short leads, for the monitor. >>> * 4-way keyboard socket. >>> * 7-way socket for the mouse. >>> >>> The 3 BNC connectors are embossed with the legend 'R', 'G', or 'B', >>> and the short leads to which they are attached are Color coded red, > green, >> or blue. >>> >>> Typical Usage: >>> >>> Used with VAXstation 3100 models 30, 38, 48 (Color - not SPX). Also >>> used with the VAXstation 2000 (Color). >>> >>> Ordering Information: >>> >>> BC19S-10 p/n 17-01480-01 ____________________________________________________________ GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk? and most webmails From sam.stran at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 5 10:46:38 2012 From: sam.stran at ntlworld.com (susantha) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 16:46:38 +0100 Subject: Has anyone ever heard of theProtec Microsystems PRO-83? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCE29DE.4090402@ntlworld.com> Hi Robert, Earlier this morning I was trying to program an AT90S1200 and got fed up reading the data sheets. I delving in my old box in search for my ZX80 spectrum and with it came out Protec Microsystems Pro 83 single board computer. The board is intact with eprom in place. One capacitor has come loose but it is easy to see where it has come off from, so I think it is fixable. The Pro-83 was given to me way back in 1983. I have never fired it up. I see on the casing the supply voltage is 9v and there is voltage regulator attached down stream. On the PCB near the regulator the manufacturer has printed +8 on the positive side. this is the best information I have. Have you powered your? and is it working. Please share any info that you have on this as I would like to fire it up one day. Regards Susantha Jayawardena Surrey UK From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 5 11:27:53 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 17:27:53 +0100 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <08e601cd4338$2992f9a0$7cb8ece0$@ntlworld.com> Not having seen a BC18Z I can't say, but I could post photos of the BC19S if that helps. The BC19S has a block near the BNC connectors where you plug in the keyboard and mouse, it also has a screw sticking out of the block, I think it is designed to screw into certain CRTs to hold the block in place. One thing I should have said, there was a bit of a blue cast. I don't think this is the cable though, it could be the card itself, or perhaps the monitor, but I don't have the means to verify this. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of N0body H0me > Sent: 05 June 2012 16:31 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > > > So, what's the difference between a BC19s and a BC18z? > My suspicion is that it's either mechanical, or cosmetic if they're electrically > equivalent . . . > > > Jeff > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > Sent: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:38:07 +0100 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > > > > For the record, it turns out that the BC19S cable also works on a VCB02. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > >> Sent: 03 June 2012 18:59 > >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > >> Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > >> > >> Thanks Glen, that looks like a really useful reference. > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> Rob > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >>> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > >>> Sent: 03 June 2012 18:40 > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >>> Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > >>> > >>> One last reply on this topic, this is a good reference page: > >>> > >>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html > >>> > >>> You might have to refer to any pinout information available in the > >>> VCB02 and VS3100 manuals to determine if there are any functional > >>> differences in the BC18Z and BC19S cables. > >>> > >>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html#bc19s > >>> > >>> BC19S Cable for Color Monitor > >>> > >>> BC19S > >>> > >>> Description: > >>> > >>> VAXstation 3100 Color monitor cable, 10 feet long. > >>> > >>> Specification: > >>> > >>> 15-way D-type, female connector with fixing screws at the system > >>> end, and connector block with screw fixing at the monitor end. The > >>> connector block has the following connectors: > >>> > >>> * three BNC male connectors, on short leads, for the monitor. > >>> * 4-way keyboard socket. > >>> * 7-way socket for the mouse. > >>> > >>> The 3 BNC connectors are embossed with the legend 'R', 'G', or 'B', > >>> and the short leads to which they are attached are Color coded red, > > green, > >> or blue. > >>> > >>> Typical Usage: > >>> > >>> Used with VAXstation 3100 models 30, 38, 48 (Color - not SPX). Also > >>> used with the VAXstation 2000 (Color). > >>> > >>> Ordering Information: > >>> > >>> BC19S-10 p/n 17-01480-01 > > __________________________________________________________ > __ > GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at > http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, > Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk? and most webmails > From abs at absd.org Tue Jun 5 11:38:04 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 17:38:04 +0100 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 June 2012 16:28, Richard wrote: > > I was really hoping the V in the acronym was going to be VMS. That certainly would have been much more impressive! Given the amount of entertainment from some of the packages getting them working on the VAX platform on a current supported OS, that would have been a whole new level :) > It's just another *nix box unless you're running VMS. Granted, though I would contest its at least an interesting (hardware-wise) *nix box :) Retro-computing has various strands - emulators provide massive accessibility for running old software for those without access to original hardware, and some of us like running current software on retro-hardware. I feel there is real benefit for current developers to remain aware of the characteristics of past hardware, and running current as well as contemporary software helps, but that may just be me :) From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 11:40:16 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 09:40:16 -0700 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: <08e601cd4338$2992f9a0$7cb8ece0$@ntlworld.com> References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com> <08e601cd4338$2992f9a0$7cb8ece0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Not having seen a BC18Z I can't say, but I could post photos of the BC19S if that helps. The BC19S has a block near the BNC connectors where you plug in the keyboard and mouse, it also has a screw sticking out of the block, I think it is designed to screw into certain CRTs to hold the block in place. > Does it look just like this, but maybe shorter? http://www.circuitsurgeon.com/forsale/bc18z.jpg (not my picture, just found it on the net) How long is your BC19S? I think the BC18Z I have is a -25 foot version, which is a bit longer than I need. From james at slor.net Tue Jun 5 11:40:53 2012 From: james at slor.net (James) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 12:40:53 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Original Kaypro 16 floppies Message-ID: <00b701cd4339$fa0c9d60$ee25d820$@slor.net> I've been looking for an original floppy disk set for my Kaypro 16 (not 16/2 or any others) for a while now. Anyone on this list have a set to part with? Or, worst case, anyone have a set they could copy/image for me? Thanks! James From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Jun 5 12:04:55 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:04:55 -0700 Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles In-Reply-To: <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net> The Tektronix 4051 proper name appears to be a Graphic Computing System. I updated the Wikimedia description. I also added a press release from the October 30, 1975 issue of Electronics to my web site. "Terminal Talks Basic". Electronics (New York: McGraw-Hill) 42 (22): p. 120. October 30, 1975. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Microprocessors/Microprocessor_History.htm A few weeks ago I was at a small gathering of former Data I/O employees. I sat next to Larry Mayhew who was the CEO in the 1980s. When I mentioned my Motorola 6800 interest (Data I/O programmers used them) he recalled the Tektronix 4051. His previous job was the Tektronix VP in charge of that product line. He knew the details of the product and thought it was a good design. He had a different view of the 4052. To improve performance, the designers use an AMD bit-slice processor. It had to emulate the 6800 so the existing software base could be used. Larry said this product was a disaster, it didn't run much faster. Sales were poor so he had to cancel the product. Here is a web site that has information on the Tektronix 4050 series. http://www.electronixandmore.com/articles/teksystem.html Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:45 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles On 6/5/2012 12:29 AM, Richard wrote: > In article<4FCDA873.1030407 at mail.msu.edu>, > Josh Dersch writes: > >> I'll be pedantic and note that the Tektronix 4051 isn't really a >> terminal, it's a general-purpose computer (with BASIC built in). But >> I'm sure it could also act as a pretty decent terminal with the right >> software :). > There's a continuum between classic "glass tty" terminals on one end > and full blown personal computers on the other. Tektronix wasn't the > only manufacturer to recognize this. Add local storage and some sort > of operating system (BASIC in ROM will do) to a terminal and you have > a personal computer. Sure, but the 4051 doesn't really sit in the "slightly modified terminal" mold -- it didn't come with RS-232 connectivity built in (it had GPIB and a pointer input, IIRC). RS-232 was an optional add-on, as was the software that allowed it to behave as a terminal. The 4051 was a built to be a computer first, and was sold as a "Graphic Computing System." (http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Tektronix/Tektronix.4051. 1976.102646254.pdf) It may possibly have started at Tek as a "hey, let's take a 401x terminal and make a computer out of it" but I don't really understand why that means the end result is considered a Terminal in any way (or why it's useful to categorize it in such a way). (And in this case, did any other Tek terminals prior to (or after?) the 4051 use a 6800? Wouldn't the lack of any such beast point to the 4051 as being purpose-built as a computer, and not the evolution of a terminal design?) - Josh > > On the terminals wiki I have a category for terminals like this: > ing> > > There is also that middle ground where the terminal has local storage, > but no local programming environment: > > > > Most terminals that had local processing had local storage, but not > always. Some were intended to be locally programmable by downloading > a program from the host. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 5 12:15:05 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A "rose" by any other name (Was: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net> <20120604080734.C95864@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120605083754.E33659@shell.lmi.net> > > I am cognizant of the differences, and the sloppiness of the terminology, > > and CHOSE to attempt to reply to the original poster using the > > terminology that he had used. I do have sample diskettes from hundreds On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Christian Corti wrote: > So he won't be able to learn the correct terminology as soon as possible. PLEASE select SHORT and ACCURATE (mutually exclusive) terms for the types of 5.25" drives. SERIOUSLY. We are giving each other hell over sloppiness and inexactitude in the terminology, but WHAT terms could be used, instead, that are accurate, but short enough that people will actually USE them? "Drive type 7" (for FLOPPIES!) did NOT catch on. (That was an attempt in DRIVER.SYS) http://users.cybercity.dk/~bse26236/batutil/help/DRIVER_S.HTM Calling them "360K", "720K" (not to be confused with 3.5"), or "1.2M" drives is unambiguous, but VERY OFFENSIVELY sloppy. We all know, and as Allison itemized, a "360K" drive can be from about 60K to about 440K. ALSO, "360K" could be misinterpreted to refer to some SSDD 96tpi formats. In order to avoid THAT offense, I called them "HD" and "DD" drives, as the original poster had. THAT action ignored the SSSD (unusual), DSSD (unusual), DSDD and SSDD 96tpi drives, and invoked your ire. Sorry about that. "QUAD density" is very offensive. It is NOT an increase in "density", but, instead, an increase in capacity. "DD-96tpi" would be better, but how many here would OBJECT to assuming "DD" is 48tpi unless specified otherwise? (just as using both sides is NOT an increase in "density"): "SUPER DENSITY", abbreviated "SD"!!! (DSDD 96tpi) as used by Intertec (Superbrain) was called that because it was "higher density than our 'quad density'" (SSDD 96tpi). It is SO silly and stupid that it is hard not to laugh. I don't know. Is it funny enough to over-ride its extreme offensiveness? "HD" is also offensive. It is NOT a change in recording method, and hardly qualifies as "high" (although the marketing people might have been!) it is just normal "MFM" at twice the data transfer rate but similar (300/360) RPM. "SD" is offensive to some disk design engineers. "It is really 'HALF density', with two flux transition positions per bit!" "DD" is offensive to some disk design engineers. "It is NOT double. It is still less than one bit per flux transition. It is 'double' only in terms of the data transfer rate, which is NOT the same as the 'density'". BTW, if you do historical searches (NOT just current Google, or even "Wayback"), you will find that "double density" as a TERM existed before "single density" existed as a TERM! Likewise, "World War Two" is mentioned in earlier newspapers than "World War One" is! Neither "single density" nor "World War One" were called that (they had other names) until the other one came along and had been discussed for a while. :-) > > OK, YOU explain to the original poster why he will or will not have > > problems writing Kaypro2, Apple2, Commodore diskettes using the "1.2M" > > drive from an IBM 5170. He will need to know about coercivity, LATER, > > We won't have any problem if the target system uses 96 tpi drives too. I > have some 80 track Apple2 drives, When somebody says that they want to write to Apple2 disks, you assume that they are talking about 96tpi? THAT is the dumbest excuse :-) YES, it is possible to put 96tpi (AND 100TPI) drives on an Apple2. When somebody asks about writing Apple2 diskettes, what do you THINK they are talking about? I've used 3" diskettes (NO, NOT 3.5") on Apple2 (pre-Amstrad Amdek). Perhaps we should assume that THAT is what he is asking about? > could use (or even will have to use) that drive to write those kind of > disks. The whole point is that you can't give a definite answer without > knowing the details of the source system (where the disks are written) and > the target system (where they are to be used). One can never give a definitive answer, unless you also personally examine the system, and MEASURE all components. Paraphrasing the original question (drive models added for disambiguation): "I am setting up an external drive system for use with DisKFerret and CatWeasel for reading and writing diskettes that stock FDC has difficulties with, such as Apple2, TRS80Model1, Commodore64, etc. "I have a some "DD" drives (Teac FFB and SA455) and some "HD" drives (Teac55F and SA475). Which of the two types of drives do you suggest that I use? Will the "HD" drives give me trouble? > > when he selects blank media to use. But, right now, for selesting which > > DRIVE to mount in the case, he does NOT need to be concerned with flux > > transition rate, disk total capacity, options of alternate physical > > formats, or variant exceptions to the "standard" formats. > > Why not? Doesn't he have the right to learn those things? ABSOLUTELY, IN ADDITION to the simple answer, NOT INSTEAD of it. The FIRST response was a misreading of the question (sloppy terminology, again), and misinterpreted his question as being about which media to use. He WILL need to know that, if he doesn't already, but NOT UNTIL he has connected the drive. He ASKED about selecting the drive. > This thread has enough simple answers; why not give an additional more > exhaustive answer to the matter? ABSOLUTELY, IN ADDITION to the simple answer, NOT INSTEAD of it. And yet, you apparently took offense at Allison's summation and itemization of the disk types! I submit that my grumpiness is not unique here. > > The issue for the original poster was whether he should use a "DD" drive > > or an "HD" drive. Those were HIS terms. HE was not referring with "DD > > The issue of the OP was no issue at all. If I read that correctly, he > simply wants to read files off of standard MS-DOS disks. YOU are thinking of the WordPervert question (around the same time). THIS was about external flux transition drive box. TWO DIFFERENT THREADS! Is THAT what we're arguing about? I went back and noticed that you replied to BOTH threads in consecutive messages. Later, in THIS discussion, I find that I conflated both of those two replies. :-) > Sure, he wants to read bog standard MS-DOS disks. So the answer is: Just > get a drive and try it. OTHER thread > And BTW, usually you can recognise "HD" floppies > fairly easily because most don't have the hub reinforcement ring. And and using YOUR give exhaustive instead of over-simplification exhortation, . . . :-) The diskettes that existed during the first year or two of the TRS80 and Apple2 did NOT have hub rings. Tht included Verbatim (prior to their redesign of "Datalife"), Memorex, Dysan? BASF, etc. Hub rings were introduced LATER. It was easy to add hub rings to disks. Inmac (GIGANTIC mail-order office supply in USA) sold kits for that (as well as the Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig) NOT ALL early disks got retrofitted with hub rings! Therefore, a disk without a hubring is an early 5.25" "SSSD" ("Single Sided Single Density") OR an early 5.25" "DSSD" OR an early 5.25" "SSDD" OR an early 5.25" "DSDD" OR a 5.25" "DSHD" A disk WITH a hubring is either a LATER "low density" :-) disk, OR an "HD" disk that was owned by somebody who had been in it since the early days, and hadn't yet run out of hub-rings in their retrofit kit. (In another DIFFERENT thread recently, Eric Smith asked about hub-rings to replenish his retrofit kit) Similarly, in identifying drives, . . . :-) LOTS of confusion existed, since the drives look similar. VERY similar. IBM "solved" the problem, in typical IBM form, by embossing a "star" on the front-plate of the "360K" drives that they made from then on. It never occurred to them that they would get better saturation if they did it to the NEW type of drive, instead. Therefore, a drive with a star is a "360K" drive made after the introduction of "1.2M" drives by somebody affiliated with, or copying, IBM; a drive WITHOUT a star is a "1.2M" drive, OR a "360K" drive made before the introduction of "1.2M" drives, OR a drive made by anybody who didn't give a fig what IBM did. > next: Usually the characteristics are written on the disk label. LESS THAN HALF of the ones in USA! > For "HD" disks, here are some examples: > "HD" floppies > Disky HD 2 (Doebbelin&Boeder) That brand is UNKNOWN in USA. (But you probably weren't subjected to ones such as "Elephant") I, ALSO. conflated the two threads. All of the above is from the "Re: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives" thread about external flux transition drive box. However, the below is from the "Re: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks" thread about WordPervert disks in a stock drive system. > > Another poster pointed out that the original poster had referred to his > > diskettes as FDDs, and asked how you copy a Floppy Disk Drive. Being from > > a "Fantasia" generation, I can't help but visualize Mickey Mouse as The > Oh come on! That was me, and there was a smiley. Sorry, but you really > give your nick name "Grumpy Ol' Fred" all honours! . . . and I thought that it was a great silly response. You didn't NEED a smiley. If people need smilies to understand that Jonathan Swift or Douglas Admas are speaking humourously, then the world is a sad place. (although admittedly, somebody who is over-saturated with American "HUMOR" might not get British HUMOUR.) I'm sorry that you did not find the imagery of things duplicating out of control, with its overly silly presentation in "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" in Disney's "Fantasia", funny. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 12:41:26 2012 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 13:41:26 -0400 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Personally, I tend to think that if you have a VAX, it would be more fun to use VMS, WASD (a native web server for VMS with lots of cool features including support for all the usual web languages plus DCL) and the database of your choice (either native RMS tables for simple stuff, Rdb if you can get it or MySQL if you can't) than to try and get some BSD-based system set up. Mike From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jun 5 12:49:15 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:49:15 -0500 Subject: A "rose" by any other name (Was: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20120605083754.E33659@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net> <20120604080734.C95864@shell.lmi.net> <20120605083754.E33659@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FCE469B.9030306@jbrain.com> The sad part about this is that some enthusiasts like me, come away from the discussion with the following points: * Just don't ask about something in here, because it could be controversial, and instead of getting some guidance, you'll get mountains of pedantic information, interspersed in a most unhelpful way, in between rantings from list members. * These people must just love to antagonize one another, even though they claim to use the list in a civil way as $diety intended (no top posting, etc.) * If I have the intestinal fortitude to wade through all of the postings, I'll leave more confused than I was starting out. Cue the "Well, that's how the list is supposed to work, deal with it" crowd... Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 5 12:55:53 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net> <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20120605105123.L33659@shell.lmi.net> > On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Allison wrote: > > On 06/04/2012 04:54 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > >> How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I have enough 96tpi "DD" > >> drives. I think you mix up track density and recording density, two > >> unrelated things. > > There are two common track density 48 and 96 tpi or otherwise said > > 40 and 80 cylinders. there are more tracks/cylinders to the radial inch. > > Also the head width is narrower by two for the 96tpi. > > Recording density is experssed in FRPI Flux Reversals per Inch. > > The problem with floppies is that for 5.25 you had: > [...] On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Christian Corti wrote: > I know that all very well, it's not to me that you have to explain it ;-) Although it would be easy to assume that she were admonishing you, keep in mind that she was probably intending merely to summarize and make the discussion comprehensive. I interpreted her remarks, in spite of using yours as an intro, as being to the entire list, and attempting to make a thorough discussion, rather than a specific item reply. Also, she has no way of knowing what you do or don't know. We need to avoid being offended when somebody underestimates our existing knowledge. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 12:56:47 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 12:56:47 -0500 Subject: Mystery Panel Message-ID: I received this 23" panel strip recently along with a large lot of unrelated (DEC) items. I've tried some creative googling but have been unable to ID it. I'm hoping somewhere here may have encountered it in their past travels. Here is a gallery of pics: https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/MysteryTelcoPanel Whatever it came from, it appears to be hand-wired with great care, perhaps even a one-off for its particular application. I thought at first it was telco-related, rather than computing, being a 23" rather than 19" mount. That may still be the case. Or, it could be both, given the intersection of the two industries. So, do those panel codes stir up any memories here? -- jht From ss at allegro.com Tue Jun 5 12:58:49 2012 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:58:49 -0700 Subject: Converting terminals into computers (was: Re: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles) In-Reply-To: <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com> On Jun 5, 2012, at 12:44 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Sure, but the 4051 doesn't really sit in the "slightly modified terminal" mold ... > > It may possibly have started at Tek as a "hey, let's take a 401x terminal and make a computer out of it" Perhaps a common aspiration back then :) According to Wirt Atmar (of AICS, and now passed away), HP came to him about when the Apple 1 was introduced, asking him if the HP2640A could be converted into a personal computer. (see: http://www.aics-research.com/history6.html ) The analysis at the time was: yes, but it would be so expensive it wouldn't succeed. (The HP 2640A was already a very expensive terminal!) (Of course, later TinyBASIC was ported to the HP2645A) Stan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 5 13:08:59 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A "rose" by any other name (Was: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCE469B.9030306@jbrain.com> References: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net> <20120604080734.C95864@shell.lmi.net> <20120605083754.E33659@shell.lmi.net> <4FCE469B.9030306@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20120605105755.M33659@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > The sad part about this is that some enthusiasts like me, come away from > the discussion with the following points: > * Just don't ask about something in here, because it could be > controversial, and instead of getting some guidance, you'll get > mountains of pedantic information, interspersed in a most unhelpful > way, in between rantings from list members. > * These people must just love to antagonize one another, even though > they claim to use the list in a civil way as $diety intended (no top > posting, etc.) > * If I have the intestinal fortitude to wade through all of the > postings, I'll leave more confused than I was starting out. > Cue the "Well, that's how the list is supposed to work, deal with it" > crowd... Believe it or not, that is close to the points that I was trying to make, although I was probably more part of the problem than part of the solution. I have a few corrections, clarifications, and partial retractions to make to that post; perhaps what little help they might be is overshadowed by the contrroversies. We really do need to standardize a set of drive type names, since "HD" and "DD" drives is apparently NOT unambiguous to some of us! (and created this entire fiasco) But, full ACCURATE specification is too long to be usable. Since "Drive type 2" is not going to catch on, I propose "DD48", "DD96", and "HD96", with an implicit agreement that we'll call them that inspite of any exceptions and deviations, such as using those DRIVE types for single density. Does THAT work OK for everybody? OB_pedantic: Few realize the correct attribution of "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!" Eldridge Cleaver! From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 13:18:15 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:18:15 -0700 Subject: Converting terminals into computers (was: Re: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles) In-Reply-To: <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com> References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com> Message-ID: On Jun 5, 2012 11:11 AM, "Stan Sieler" wrote: > > According to Wirt Atmar (of AICS, and now passed away), HP came to him about when the Apple 1 > was introduced, asking him if the HP2640A could be converted into a personal computer. > (see: http://www.aics-research.com/history6.html ) > > The analysis at the time was: yes, but it would be so expensive it wouldn't succeed. > (The HP 2640A was already a very expensive terminal!) > > (Of course, later TinyBASIC was ported to the HP2645A) > > Stan I have an HP 2647F. Similar to the other terminals in that series except it has two floppy drives. If I remember correctly the FDC board contains a Z-80 while the main CPU card uses the standard 8080A for that series. Capable of running BASIC. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 5 13:33:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 14:33:08 -0400 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCE50E4.8050204@neurotica.com> On 06/05/2012 01:41 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > Personally, I tend to think that if you have a VAX, it would be more > fun to use VMS, WASD (a native web server for VMS with lots of cool > features including support for all the usual web languages plus DCL) > and the database of your choice (either native RMS tables for simple > stuff, Rdb if you can get it or MySQL if you can't) than to try and > get some BSD-based system set up. Perhaps, but much of today's web services are run on some flavor of UNIX (usually Linux, but that's a less-important distinction) along with Apache, PHP, and MySQL. Doing this means 75% of preexisting "web apps" (hate that term) will just plug in and run. I'm not the guy who did this, and I don't know what his motivation was, but to me, this is less about fun and more about proving, usually to curmudgeons, that VAXen can do quite a bit of real work. I applaud his work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Jun 5 13:33:19 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 14:33:19 -0400 Subject: A "rose" by any other name (Was: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20120605083754.E33659@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net> <20120604080734.C95864@shell.lmi.net> <20120605083754.E33659@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FCE50EF.7080603@verizon.net> On 06/05/2012 01:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I am cognizant of the differences, and the sloppiness of the terminology, >>> and CHOSE to attempt to reply to the original poster using the >>> terminology that he had used. I do have sample diskettes from hundreds > On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Christian Corti wrote: >> So he won't be able to learn the correct terminology as soon as possible. > PLEASE select SHORT and ACCURATE (mutually exclusive) terms for the types > of 5.25" drives. > SERIOUSLY. We are giving each other hell over sloppiness and > inexactitude in the terminology, but WHAT terms could be used, instead, > that are accurate, but short enough that people will actually USE them? > > "Drive type 7" (for FLOPPIES!) did NOT catch on. (That was an attempt in > DRIVER.SYS) > http://users.cybercity.dk/~bse26236/batutil/help/DRIVER_S.HTM > I don't like that either... ;) Its PC specific and lacks precision as PC do just about anything that suits them (designer). My HB system has: 5.25", two sided, 96tpi, 300rpm. It's formating the media as: MFM 250kb/sec, 9 sectors, 512bytes sector (low data rate mode) MFM 500kb/sec, 9 sectors, 512bytes sector (high data rate speed mode) organized as: (low mode) Cylinder 0 and cylinder 1, reserved as system boot track (CP/M) track 2 through 79 side 0 and 1 as data/directory data storage formatted 360kb OR( High mode) No reserved tracks as system boot track (CP/M) track 0 through 79 side 0 and 1 as data/directory data storage formatted 737kb From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 5 13:42:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 14:42:24 -0400 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> On 06/05/2012 11:28 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Interesting, but it requires: > > a) The purchase of a $50+ piece of hardware > > b) That you store all your images on their web site. > > DriveWire requires that you build a single cable (peanut expenditure) > and let's you store things on your own computer. > > Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend towards > putting my own data on third-party remote sites. *applause* THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 5 13:57:24 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:57:24 +0100 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com> <08e601cd4338$2992f9a0$7cb8ece0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <08f301cd434d$0cc9ffc0$265dff40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: 05 June 2012 17:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > > On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > Not having seen a BC18Z I can't say, but I could post photos of the BC19S if > that helps. The BC19S has a block near the BNC connectors where you plug in > the keyboard and mouse, it also has a screw sticking out of the block, I think > it is designed to screw into certain CRTs to hold the block in place. > > > > Does it look just like this, but maybe shorter? > > http://www.circuitsurgeon.com/forsale/bc18z.jpg > (not my picture, just found it on the net) > > How long is your BC19S? I think the BC18Z I have is a -25 foot version, which > is a bit longer than I need. The one I have is about 10 feet long, although I have not measured it. Regards Rob From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 5 14:03:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 15:03:22 -0400 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCE57FA.9020709@neurotica.com> On 06/05/2012 12:38 PM, David Brownlee wrote: >> I was really hoping the V in the acronym was going to be VMS. > > That certainly would have been much more impressive! > Given the amount of entertainment from some of the packages getting > them working on the VAX platform on a current supported OS, that would > have been a whole new level :) > >> It's just another *nix box unless you're running VMS. > > Granted, though I would contest its at least an interesting > (hardware-wise) *nix box :) > > Retro-computing has various strands - emulators provide massive > accessibility for running old software for those without access to > original hardware, and some of us like running current software on > retro-hardware. I feel there is real benefit for current developers to > remain aware of the characteristics of past hardware, and running > current as well as contemporary software helps, but that may just be > me :) I think this is a wonderful piece of work. Congrats on getting it running! I'm sure that was no easy feat, especially with the VAX's lack of IEEE floating point support. (which everything seems to depend on nowadays, whether it does one whit of math or not!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From d235j.1 at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 14:16:44 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:16:44 -0400 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCCC7FE.23577.120A956@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com> <4FCCC7FE.23577.120A956@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > But the Drivetek 320 drives had two > edge connectors--one 34-position, the other 8-position, in an > arrangement such that you could make contact with both using a 50 > position edge connector. > > Embedded servo. ?I wonder if the Epson also uses that... > > Later Kodak drives don't have the second connector. > How much technical information is out there for these Kodak drives? I just picked up a couple to modify for reading difficult (and nonstandard TPI) drives. I found the QNX driver for these, but have a hard time finding any more... They sure are interesting. I took scans and read out the 6805's ROM contents and stuck them up on http://dec8.info/pictures/Kodak%203.3Mb%205.25%20drive/ in case anyone is interested. -Dave From d235j.1 at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 14:18:27 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:18:27 -0400 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com> <4FCCC7FE.23577.120A956@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: By the way, we're also interested in other versions of this firmware for analysis. The chip is difficult to read out (we had to use the BPDos software with a BP-1200 EPROM programmer since the Windows software would only produce inconsistent dumps). Apparently Jameco has this chip available, but I've heard mixed reports as to their reliability. --Dave > How much technical information is out there for these Kodak drives? I > just picked up a couple to modify for reading difficult (and > nonstandard TPI) drives. I found the QNX driver for these, but have a > hard time finding any more... They sure are interesting. I took scans > and read out the 6805's ROM contents and stuck them up on > http://dec8.info/pictures/Kodak%203.3Mb%205.25%20drive/ in case anyone > is interested. > > -Dave From abs at absd.org Tue Jun 5 14:24:59 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:24:59 +0100 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: <4FCE57FA.9020709@neurotica.com> References: <4FCE57FA.9020709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 5 June 2012 20:03, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?I think this is a wonderful piece of work. ?Congrats on getting it > running! ?I'm sure that was no easy feat, especially with the VAX's lack > of IEEE floating point support. (which everything seems to depend on > nowadays, whether it does one whit of math or not!) Thanks - most of the entertainment is documented on the page :), though the fact strtod() doesn't play well with D-FLOAT numbers is proving tricky. That code is quite gnarly and some of the defines are decidedly non-obvious. MySQL still seems to be SEGVing on startup, which I'll get back to when I have some time - for now wopr is building PostgreSQL, which has always been my preferred SQL database anyway. I'd put something like MongoDB on it to tick the NoSQL box, but that needs python to build, which fails due to missing libffi :/ Anyway, next big challenge for me is going to be to work out why the keyboard and mouse are happy on the console but misbehave under X :) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jun 5 14:26:52 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Interesting, but it requires: >> b) That you store all your images on their web site. >> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend >> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites. > *applause* > THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It! You're not alone, you two...though it sure can feel like it sometimes, I know. Especially when the third-party remote site is in a place with substantially weaker privacy protection than is provided locally, which is often the case since many - most? - of the third-party sites in question are in the USA, with all the depressing implications that has for privacy. (Of course, for people already in the USA, this may not be as big a deal.) There are reasons I, for example, run my own mailserver, and this is one of them. I don't trust anyone else with my mail, especially not someone off in another country. My offsite backups take the form of two disks which I swap weekly, keeping the non-live one a few miles from my place. That sort of thing. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Jun 5 14:37:23 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:37:23 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <02a001cd4307$c763f020$562bd060$@gmail.com> References: <01ff01cd4241$c49ca4c0$4dd5ee40$@camicom.com> from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jun 4, 12 01:04:09 pm <02a001cd4307$c763f020$562bd060$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FCE5FF3.1080305@bluewin.ch> On 06/05/2012 12:41 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >>> . 2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859) >>> . 3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859) >> What technology does this CPU use? 2900 bit-slice, ASICs, or what? The >> P854 CPU is 3 cards, I think, one of which is the MMU (and one of the >> others an IOP?, I would have to check the manuals). The P851 CPU is >> a signle board, using Philips bitslice ICs... > 2900 bit-slice. Sure of this ? My P856 ( 12nc 5111 100 05701 ) and P857 ( 12nc 5111 100 05702 ) CPU boards definitely have 4 x74181 datapath, and 6 x 82s115 PROM microcode. That would mean Philips reimplemented the same CPU twice. Somehow it does not surprise me... My MCU3 boards also have a different 12nc number compared to yours. ( 5111 100 05582 ) > This card has 178 14 and 16 pin chips on it, all 74xx logic except for four that are marked "F 9301 DC" F9301 is also TTL , from Fairchild 1 - 10 decoder If your documents list a LSM16 board, I'd like to know what it is. That's a mystery board I have . (12nc 5111 100 06641 ) Jos From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 5 14:53:59 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:53:59 -0700 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FCCC7FE.23577.120A956@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4FCE0167.10016.F03F6B@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jun 2012 at 15:16, David Ryskalczyk wrote: > How much technical information is out there for these Kodak drives? I > just picked up a couple to modify for reading difficult (and > nonstandard TPI) drives. I found the QNX driver for these, but have a > hard time finding any more... They sure are interesting. I took scans > and read out the 6805's ROM contents and stuck them up on > http://dec8.info/pictures/Kodak%203.3Mb%205.25%20drive/ in case anyone > is interested. I've got a Drivetek OEM manual for the 320, but it's not nearly as detailed as other OEM manuals. It discusses the basic philosophy of the positioner, embedded servo, 600 RPM, etc., but no schematics or anything other than the pinout for the 34-position connector. At least that's what I remember without actually going digging for it. The service literature for the Kaypro Robie may offer some additional clues, but I suspect that there's not much, if anything, there either. I've worked on hard drives with embedded servo, the first being the never-relased Ontrack 5.25" drive. There, the mechanism was a rather complicated mechanical affair that used a system of sleeves and solenoids to create a binary-encoded positioner. There's certainly a patent circa early 1980s somewhere on that thing, even if it never saw the light of day. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 5 13:18:59 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Mouse wrote: >>> Interesting, but it requires: >>> b) That you store all your images on their web site. > >>> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend >>> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites. > >> *applause* > >> THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It! > > You're not alone, you two...though it sure can feel like it sometimes, > I know. > It's a fun gadget for a 30 year old computer. Get over yourselves. I'll be the first to say that if you don't physically control the hardware your data is stored on, you don't control your data. However, whining about storing disk images for your Commodore 64 on a remote site is just f*cking stupid. I mentioned the device because I figured some folks would get a kick out of it, not to start a whinge-fest about cloud services. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jun 5 15:20:00 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 22:20:00 +0200 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 06/05/2012 11:28 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > Interesting, but it requires: > > > > a) The purchase of a $50+ piece of hardware > > > > b) That you store all your images on their web site. > > > > DriveWire requires that you build a single cable (peanut expenditure) > > and let's you store things on your own computer. > > > > Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend towards > > putting my own data on third-party remote sites. > > *applause* > > THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA For shure, that's not the only one besides you... BTW: I'm currently 49 years old, have a little more than "normal" activity on the net, worked as Unix Sysop for many years...but I still don't know what for I should need Twitter and Facebook.. Regards, Holm PS: We have here in Germany aggressive Advertising from the German Telekom for their Cloud system. "Die Telekom Cloud!" ...since they must use english vocables in any sentence where it is possible to get "a modern image". For any normal German that sounds like "Die Telekom klaut!" wich means in German that they are stealing .. OMG. -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 5 15:23:22 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 14:23:22 -0600 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , David Brownlee writes: > > It's just another *nix box unless you're running VMS. > > Granted, though I would contest its at least an interesting > (hardware-wise) *nix box :) Yes, I don't mean to belittle the accomplishment; VAX is different enough from x86/ARM/MIPS that having *nix running on it with a modern software stack is interesting, I was just hoping it was going to be VMS. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 5 15:26:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 16:26:08 -0400 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4FCE6B60.3080501@neurotica.com> On 06/05/2012 02:18 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> Interesting, but it requires: >>>> b) That you store all your images on their web site. >> >>>> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend >>>> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites. >> >>> *applause* >> >>> THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It! >> >> You're not alone, you two...though it sure can feel like it sometimes, >> I know. >> > It's a fun gadget for a 30 year old computer. Get over yourselves. > > I'll be the first to say that if you don't physically control the > hardware your data is stored on, you don't control your data. However, > whining about storing disk images for your Commodore 64 on a remote site > is just f*cking stupid. Of course. But some people put their personal finance data "in the cloud" because they've been told it's a good idea, and they're stupid enough to believe it. THAT was his complaint, and it's mine as well. > I mentioned the device because I figured some folks would get a kick out > of it, not to start a whinge-fest about cloud services. This is classiccmp. We can turn ANYTHING into a whinge-fest. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jun 5 15:27:56 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 16:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201206052027.QAA01411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It! >> You're not alone, you two...[...] > It's a fun gadget for a 30 year old computer. True. In this particular case, for many people, there's nothing wrong with it. But I do think it's important that people contemplating handing their data to someone else be at least aware enough of the issues to make an intelligent decision about when it does and doesn't matter, for that user and that data. > Get over yourselves. Yeah, that'll sure help calm the discussion down. > However, whining about storing disk images for your Commodore 64 on a > remote site is just f*cking stupid. ...because of course nobody ever uses a C=64 for anything for which privacy is important. Right. Really cogent argument, that. Phrased so politely, too. And to get back to the subject, there are reasons beyond privacy for not pushing data out to third parties. In particular, it's easy to lose access to that data, either temporarily or permanently, for reasons beyond your easy control. If I were playing with C=64 code, it would quite annoy me if things suddenly stopped working temporarily because some provider half a continent away failed...or permanently because some company failed. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 5 15:31:34 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 14:31:34 -0600 Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles In-Reply-To: <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net> References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: In article <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net>, "Michael Holley" writes: > [...] He had a different view of the 4052. To improve performance, the > designers use an AMD bit-slice processor. It had to emulate the 6800 so the > existing software base could be used. Larry said this product was a > disaster, it didn't run much faster. Sales were poor so he had to cancel the > product. Interesting because all press reports are to the contrary. I haven't done any benchmarking between 4051 and 4052, but the 4052 is a significantly more complex piece of equipment with the bitslice implementation of the 6800. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 5 15:32:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 16:32:01 -0400 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCE6CC1.4050306@neurotica.com> On 06/05/2012 04:23 PM, Richard wrote: >>> It's just another *nix box unless you're running VMS. >> >> Granted, though I would contest its at least an interesting >> (hardware-wise) *nix box :) > > Yes, I don't mean to belittle the accomplishment; VAX is different > enough from x86/ARM/MIPS that having *nix running on it with a modern > software stack is interesting, I was just hoping it was going to be > VMS. There is nothing at all news about a web server running on VMS, even on a VAX. There's off-the-shelf stuff to do that, and there has been for many years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 15:37:01 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 16:37:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Mouse wrote: > >>>> Interesting, but it requires: >>>> b) That you store all your images on their web site. >> >>>> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend >>>> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites. >> >>> *applause* >> >>> THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It! >> >> You're not alone, you two...though it sure can feel like it sometimes, >> I know. >> > It's a fun gadget for a 30 year old computer. Get over yourselves. > > I'll be the first to say that if you don't physically control the hardware > your data is stored on, you don't control your data. However, whining about > storing disk images for your Commodore 64 on a remote site is just f*cking > stupid. > > I mentioned the device because I figured some folks would get a kick out of > it, not to start a whinge-fest about cloud services. Geez, Louise... Lighten up! This must be crabby day on the cctalk list. I was simply pointing out a rather major difference and expressed my opinion along the way. Excuse the heck out of me... Steve -- From iamcamiel at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 15:37:18 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 22:37:18 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <4FCE5FF3.1080305@bluewin.ch> References: <01ff01cd4241$c49ca4c0$4dd5ee40$@camicom.com> <02a001cd4307$c763f020$562bd060$@gmail.com> <4FCE5FF3.1080305@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 9:37 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > On 06/05/2012 12:41 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >>>> >>>> . ? ? ? ?2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859) >>>> . ? ? ? ?3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859) >>> >>> What technology does this CPU use? 2900 bit-slice, ASICs, or what? The >>> P854 CPU is 3 cards, I think, one of which is the MMU (and one of the >>> others an IOP?, I would have to check the manuals). The P851 CPU is >>> a signle board, using Philips bitslice ICs... >> >> 2900 bit-slice. > > > Sure of this ? > > My P856 ( 12nc 5111 100 05701 ) and P857 ( 12nc 5111 100 05702 ) CPU boards > definitely have 4 x74181 datapath, and 6 x 82s115 PROM microcode. > > That would mean Philips reimplemented the same CPU twice. > Somehow it does not surprise me... > My MCU3 boards also have a different 12nc number compared to yours. ( 5111 > 100 05582 ) I found that each board has two numbers: 5111 100 xxxxx which is etched onto the board, which seems to be the part number for the bare circuit board. Then a second number on a sticker (which can get lost of course), 5111 199 xxxx with small numbers 1 - 9 printed above it for the last number, which is the revision. This seems to be the part number for the populated board. I've seen examples where the PCB has the same 100 number, but where the 199 number differs because not all components have been fitted. The MCU3 board number you mention is on my MCU3's as well (although some are 05583, which appears to be a higher pcb revision). I have both 856/857 CPU's and 858/859 CPU's. The 856/857 ones are 74181 based, the 859 ones are 2900 based. The service manual describes the 858/859 CPU as "the refreshed Belier version of the P857M CPU". The 859 includes some features the 857 doesn't have: MMU and two IOP's built into the CPU card, and some additional instructions. I have no clue what "Belier" means My 856/857 CPU's all use the 5111 100 05702 PCB (same as yours, marked CPB on the card), but the 199 part numbers are all different: 5111 199 74979 (has a hand-written label that says "P856 CPU"), 5111 199 76227 and 5111 199 63142 (label says CP7B). Of my 858/859 CPU's, some are CP7R and some are CP7RA. I don't know what the difference between these two is. The difference between the 858 and the 859 is whether a front panel with lamps and toggle switches is fitted (858) or a front panel with fluorescent hexadecimal displays and pushbuttons (859). > If your documents list a LSM16 board, I'd like to know what it is. That's a > mystery board I have . > (12nc 5111 100 06641 ) Haven't come across this, will let you know if I do. Camiel From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 5 13:59:03 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <4FCE6B60.3080501@neurotica.com> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FCE6B60.3080501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 06/05/2012 02:18 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>>> Interesting, but it requires: >>>>> b) That you store all your images on their web site. >>> >>>>> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend >>>>> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites. >>> >>>> *applause* >>> >>>> THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It! >>> >>> You're not alone, you two...though it sure can feel like it sometimes, >>> I know. >>> >> It's a fun gadget for a 30 year old computer. Get over yourselves. >> >> I'll be the first to say that if you don't physically control the >> hardware your data is stored on, you don't control your data. However, >> whining about storing disk images for your Commodore 64 on a remote site >> is just f*cking stupid. > > Of course. But some people put their personal finance data "in the > cloud" because they've been told it's a good idea, and they're stupid > enough to believe it. THAT was his complaint, and it's mine as well. > People that stupid deserve what they get, simple as that. I swear, some people are still alive just because their Medulla doesn't know any better. >> I mentioned the device because I figured some folks would get a kick out >> of it, not to start a whinge-fest about cloud services. > > This is classiccmp. We can turn ANYTHING into a whinge-fest. *facepalm* Good point. I keep forgetting that. DB9 anyone? *runs* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 5 15:37:56 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 14:37:56 -0600 Subject: TinyBASIC in HP2645A (was: Converting terminals into computers (was: Re: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles)) In-Reply-To: <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com> References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com> Message-ID: In article <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620 at allegro.com>, Stan Sieler writes: > (Of course, later TinyBASIC was ported to the HP2645A) I'd like to hear more about this; is there a link online somewhere? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 5 15:40:48 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 14:40:48 -0600 Subject: Converting terminals into computers (was: Re: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles) In-Reply-To: References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com> Message-ID: In article , Glen Slick writes: > I have an HP 2647F. Similar to the other terminals in that series except > it has two floppy drives. If I remember correctly the FDC board contains a > Z-80 while the main CPU card uses the standard 8080A for that series. > Capable of running BASIC. Interesting; so the floppy drive fits where the tape drives would have gone? I didn't think there was quite enough room in the cabinet for that. I'd love to see some pictures of it for the terminals wiki. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 5 14:03:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:03:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCCC7FE.23577.120A956@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 4, 12 02:36:46 pm Message-ID: > > On 4 Jun 2012 at 20:51, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've come across an Epson 5.25" floppy drive with an ST412-like > > interface. Apparently it gets about 5MBytes o na disk. I don;t think > > it was servotracked (the positioner is a nromal stepper motor) and I > > think the heads are in contact with the media when it's in use. Anyone > > know anything about it? > > No, I don't think I've seen one. But the Drivetek 320 drives had two > edge connectors--one 34-position, the other 8-position, in an > arrangement such that you could make contact with both using a 50 > position edge connector. I am pretty sure the Epson drive does have an ST412 interface. The one is the siaze of a helaf-height 5.25" floppy and has 34 pi nand 20 pin card edges and a normal 4 pin power connector. It's in a case (similar to the case of a TF20 -- the floppy drive for the HX20) with a PSU and a controller board. This has what looks to be a custom parallel interfce to the host, and contains a processor (Z80 IIRC), ROM, RAM, etc, an NEC hard disk cotnrolelr IC and what I'd expect foran ST412 interface. The drive its;ef has a very wel-packed PCB with some custom ICs in PGA packages. Due to the amount of custom silicon o nthat board, I can't comment on things like whether it uses an embedded servo. If it does, it must micro-step the positioned motor. I think the whole unit is a BN-5, but I might be mis-remembering it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 5 14:06:42 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:06:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...) In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Jun 4, 12 06:23:38 pm Message-ID: > Actually, it does use the bit-banger serial port and it does communicate > at 115.2kps quite reliably. The author of the drivewire server tells me That's impressive. PResumably the protocol is designed so that hte CoCO knows when characters will be sent to it (for example it requests a packet from the host, and cna then wait for a knwon number of charcters). Even so, it must tie up the CPU when receivign data from the host. That's going to be rather unpleasant on a multiuser machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 5 14:39:26 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:39:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Philips P800 family minis In-Reply-To: <02a701cd4317$c66ffff0$534fffd0$@gmail.com> from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jun 5, 12 02:36:04 pm Message-ID: > > I took one of the P859 boxes to check out. Power supplies turned out to be > good, so I put in one of the P859 CPU cards (CP7RA). The fluorescent display > briefly displayed "8.", followed by "000000". The expected output, according > to the manual, is "ooFFFC", after the CPU has run a first self-test. I > swapped out the CPU with one of the other ones, and this one does give me > "ooFFFC". Hit the "0" button simultaneously with the "TEST" button to run > the microdiagnostics, and got an indication that it failed on accessing > memory. I plugged in a memory board, and now it passes all self-tests > successfully (display "ooFF04"). So, at least this cpu and this memory board > appear to be OK so far. I can push the "IPL" button, and using "INST" I can > step through the IPL code (the listing is provided in the manual, so you > have a good idea of what's going on). Nest job is to fix that defective CPU. I wonder if it's doing anything at all. You might find it's an easy fix in the clock generator or something. > > Off course, I'd like to get it to boot something, and the only media I have > are the fixed platters in the three X1215's, and the 10 X1215 cartridges. If these drives are like other fixed/removable drives I've soprked on, you can't use the fixed platter unless there's a removable pack in the drive too. > test the drives with an the unlabeled Philips cartridge first. I'm wondering > of the "TP00 Test Pack" is the "Servicing disk-pack" mentioned in the > service manual. It might well be. I assume this is the head alignemt 'CE' pack. If so, DO NOT WRITE TO IT! > > So, I'd really like to get at least one cartridge drive running, so I opened > one up. There was a bit of dust inside, but not too much, and the disk > compartment seems clean. However, I discovered a problem on the undersize of > the drive. > The drive belt is made out of cloth or nylon, covered in an orange substance > (probably rubber). The rubber comes off in flakes, and a lot of the gooey > stuff is stuck on the pulleys. All three drives suffer from this condition. > I need to find a replacement for these. The belts are a little over 1/2 inch > wide, and the length of the cloth as measured is 35-1/8 inches. I'm figuring > I need a belt with a 35 inch inside circumference. The service manual only > lists a Philips part number, no dimensions for the belt. > > Any idea where to get replacement belts? I assume this is a flat belt, like a tape, not a V-belt. Belts shoudl eb easy to get, but msot of the time they are not!. I don't know of a supplier, but I wonded if a google search would help One thing.. Philips parts are very unlikely to be a sensible number of inches. They would use metric measurements almost exclusively (to the extent that their '19"' panels are not qwuite the same as, say, DEC ones. 35.125 inches is 892.175mm I wonder if it actually should be 890mm or something like that. Or perhaps 280mm (or 284mm) diameter. -tony > > Cheers, > > Camiel > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 5 14:16:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:16:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <4FCD8E21.40608@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Jun 5, 12 06:42:09 am Message-ID: > > On 06/04/2012 08:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> . 2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859) > >> > >> > >> . 3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859) > > What technology does this CPU use? 2900 bit-slice, ASICs, or what? The > > P854 CPU is 3 cards, I think, one of which is the MMU (and one of the > > others an IOP?, I would have to check the manuals). The P851 CPU is a > > signle board, using Philips bitslice ICs... > > > > The P856/P857CPU uses a single PCB with a 74181 ALU and microcode in proms. I was asking about the P859. If it is a 'P854 on P856 type boards' then it should use 2900 series ICs. FWIW, the P850 uses a pair of 74181s (8 bit ALU path), it does 2 ALU cycles for each operation. Actually, I thin kthe core memory path is 8 bits wide too. The control logic is hardwired, there are no microcode PROMs in that machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 5 14:43:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:43:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jun 5, 12 03:32:07 pm Message-ID: > Tony, are you sure that the controller you thought was for X1215 > cartridge disc drives wasn't instead an F1MB 8" floppy controller? It's possible I guess. but... This board was in my P854 when I got the machine. There was also the nromal 2-board stack (each a dulbe eurocard) that was connected ot a pair of CDC floppy drives. The board I think was an X1215 controller had a cabel plguged into it ending in the right conenctor fo such a drive, and the guy who gave me the machine said it had be used with an X1215. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 5 14:22:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:22:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Jun 5, 12 11:07:31 am Message-ID: > Still looking for a floppy based OS. What, for the P800s? THey'll take some finding, but I should have the OS for my P851 (this has 32K words of MOS memory, a termianl interface and an FDC). I will see what I can dig out. Incidentally the manaul for my FDC board came with the CDC drive serivce manual spileld inside :-) I ahve 2 of the Philips floppy disk unts, each with 2 drives installed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 5 14:27:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:27:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <02a001cd4307$c763f020$562bd060$@gmail.com> from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jun 5, 12 12:41:33 pm Message-ID: > > > > . 2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859) > > > . 3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859) > > > > What technology does this CPU use? 2900 bit-slice, ASICs, or what? The > > P854 CPU is 3 cards, I think, one of which is the MMU (and one of the > > others an IOP?, I would have to check the manuals). The P851 CPU is > > a signle board, using Philips bitslice ICs... > > 2900 bit-slice. It might well be whtyou think, then, namely a P854 CPU on P856-type cards. > > > P854. From what I rememebr it's got an 8X305 chip on it, which should > > be easy to spot. > > The card I suspect is the controller is labeled "5111 199 7817 CDD". The > cable that connects to the X1215 is labeled "X1215 CDD UP" on the top side. > The wires match up with the used contact fingers on the CDD board. I asusme this is a P856-type of I/O card. The board I know to be an X1215 controlled that I have is a double Eurocard for the P854 (and P851, etc). That could be very differnet in design. Unfortuantely I have no docuemtnatio nt all on this controller or any part dfo the X1215 set-up. -tony From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Jun 5 16:08:59 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 23:08:59 +0200 Subject: Mystery Panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCE756B.4000107@update.uu.se> It looks vaguely IBM-ish. Like a status header for a tape drive? http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Panels/ /P On 06/05/2012 07:56 PM, Jason T wrote: > I received this 23" panel strip recently along with a large lot of > unrelated (DEC) items. I've tried some creative googling but have > been unable to ID it. I'm hoping somewhere here may have encountered > it in their past travels. Here is a gallery of pics: > > https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/MysteryTelcoPanel > > Whatever it came from, it appears to be hand-wired with great care, > perhaps even a one-off for its particular application. I thought at > first it was telco-related, rather than computing, being a 23" rather > than 19" mount. That may still be the case. Or, it could be both, > given the intersection of the two industries. > > So, do those panel codes stir up any memories here? > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 5 16:34:22 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 14:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120605142011.B33659@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Holm Tiffe wrote: > "Die Telekom Cloud!" ...since they must use english vocables in any sentence > where it is possible to get "a modern image". > For any normal German that sounds like "Die Telekom klaut!" wich means in > German that they are stealing .. GREAT! So, depending on whether you are English speaking or German speaking, it is either saying that the cloud should be put to death, or that they are stealing. What's to argue? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 5 16:36:59 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 14:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FCE6B60.3080501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120605142422.C44254@shell.lmi.net> > >> of it, not to start a whinge-fest about cloud services. On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > This is classiccmp. We can turn ANYTHING into a whinge-fest. On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote: > *facepalm* Good point. I keep forgetting that. > DB9 anyone? *runs* Good point. We ALL have things which INFURIATE us, despite being in common usage. And we can't resist reacting. For some it's "DB9". Recently I discovered how offensive using "DD" as a drive type can be. For myself, I HATE "1.44M" when referring to a drive with 1,474,560 bytes. (1.40625 Mebibytes) rounded, that is "1.4M" To me, that is WORSE THAN to referring to 65,536 bytes as 65.5K 1,024,000 bytes per "Megabyte"??!? "Die Telekom Cloud!" Die, NOW. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 16:37:33 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 14:37:33 -0700 Subject: Converting terminals into computers (was: Re: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles) In-Reply-To: References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com> Message-ID: On Jun 5, 2012 2:25 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > Interesting; so the floppy drive fits where the tape drives would have > gone? I didn't think there was quite enough room in the cabinet for > that. I'd love to see some pictures of it for the terminals wiki. > -- No, there isn't room internally. The tape slots are blanked off. The drives are single unit boxes chained together. The drives look like the similar 9130A pictured at hpmuseum.net The page there references the different drive that is used with the terminals. I'll have to dig mine out and set it up. I think the screen was clear when I first got it and has unfortunately developed screen rot since then. Also, might be an 8085 main CPU instead of an 8080 as I first mentioned. -Glen From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jun 5 16:50:06 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 17:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Converting terminals into computers (was: Re: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles) In-Reply-To: References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Glen Slick writes: > >> I have an HP 2647F. Similar to the other terminals in that series except >> it has two floppy drives. If I remember correctly the FDC board contains a >> Z-80 while the main CPU card uses the standard 8080A for that series. >> Capable of running BASIC. > > Interesting; so the floppy drive fits where the tape drives would have > gone? I didn't think there was quite enough room in the cabinet for > that. I'd love to see some pictures of it for the terminals wiki. The 2647F had a floppy controller card, and one or two external drives. http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=3884 http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=3844 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Jun 5 16:57:19 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 23:57:19 +0200 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120605215719.GB5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 03:26:52PM -0400, Mouse wrote: > >> Interesting, but it requires: > >> b) That you store all your images on their web site. > > >> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend > >> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites. > > > *applause* > > > THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It! > > You're not alone, you two...though it sure can feel like it sometimes, > I know. > > Especially when the third-party remote site is in a place with > substantially weaker privacy protection than is provided locally, which > is often the case since many - most? - of the third-party sites in > question are in the USA, with all the depressing implications that has > for privacy. (Of course, for people already in the USA, this may not > be as big a deal.) > > There are reasons I, for example, run my own mailserver, and this is > one of them. I don't trust anyone else with my mail, especially not > someone off in another country. Well, of course. I run my own infrastructure as far as possible and that includes mailserver, webserver, newsserver, VPN, ... and that stuff isn't hard. > My offsite backups take the form of > two disks which I swap weekly, keeping the non-live one a few miles > from my place. That sort of thing. Here it is a stack of tapes, with one (encrypted, obviously) copy sitting in the vault of a local bank. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Jun 5 16:54:21 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 23:54:21 +0200 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...) In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20120605215421.GA5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 11:28:26AM -0400, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote: > > >On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > > >>On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> > >>>>>Is this SLIP or PPP? > >>>> > >>>>Neither. It's a well thought-out (and documented!) protocol > >>>>for interface > >>>>between small 8-bit machines and modern hardware. There's nothing > >>>>specific to the CoCo - that just happens to be the first implementation. > >>> > >>>I just looked at it on sourceforge. It seems like the same setup of a > >>>Lantronix UDS or Wiznet-type device. Those are a little more portable. > >> > >>In some respects. But those don't give you the virtual disk > >>drive services that drivewire offers. > > > >For the Commodore users out there, you might want to look at the > >Comet from http://www.commodoreserver.com. They've got a new > >driver out that allows for a 38.4k transfer rate on the USER port, > >which is a pretty big deal on a Commodore 64. I've got a Comet > >and it works VERY well. > > Interesting, but it requires: > > a) The purchase of a $50+ piece of hardware Hmm. > b) That you store all your images on their web site. WTF? Why should someone store their (presumably private) data on their servers instead of storing it on one of his own machines right next to it? Privacy, confidentiality, accessability all go pretty much down the drain with that "clouded"[0] approach. > DriveWire requires that you build a single cable (peanut > expenditure) and let's you store things on your own computer. Sounds much more reasonable. > Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend > towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites. No, you are not. In fact, I believe this to be a perfectly reasonable opinion. Why should I store my private data on machines outside my control? Yes, some of my data (a carefully selected subset) is stored also on the "cloud" of a company (which I have reasons to trust sufficiently). Heck, even my backup tapes in the bank vault are encrypted. Kind regards, Alex. [0] As in "clouded thinking". -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From md.benson at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 17:13:27 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 23:13:27 +0100 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: <4FCE6CC1.4050306@neurotica.com> References: <4FCE6CC1.4050306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <337CF44D-8783-4E60-BED1-259DBEA3D53C@gmail.com> On 5 Jun 2012, at 21:32, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 06/05/2012 04:23 PM, Richard wrote: >>>> It's just another *nix box unless you're running VMS. >>> >>> Granted, though I would contest its at least an interesting >>> (hardware-wise) *nix box :) As Phil Schiller would have it (well known for delivering the MOST boring Apple keynote segments ever) "It's all about the Hardware AND the Software". ;) >> Yes, I don't mean to belittle the accomplishment; VAX is different >> enough from x86/ARM/MIPS that having *nix running on it with a modern >> software stack is interesting, I was just hoping it was going to be >> VMS. > > There is nothing at all news about a web server running on VMS, even > on a VAX. There's off-the-shelf stuff to do that, and there has been > for many years. An up-to-date AMP stack is not 'just a webserver' though, it includes modern versions of widespread languages like PHP 5.x and MySQL 5.0 or 5.5. Other scripting languages and databases are available (and I encourage people to look at them at least in passing). I appreciate web servers on VAX are not new, hell a lot of the Internet's popular early academic and institutional web content was served out off VAXen (probably running UNIX or VMS) back in the late 80s/early 90s. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Jun 5 17:04:25 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 00:04:25 +0200 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 10:20:00PM +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On 06/05/2012 11:28 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > > Interesting, but it requires: > > > > > > a) The purchase of a $50+ piece of hardware > > > > > > b) That you store all your images on their web site. > > > > > > DriveWire requires that you build a single cable (peanut expenditure) > > > and let's you store things on your own computer. > > > > > > Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend towards > > > putting my own data on third-party remote sites. > > > > *applause* > > > > THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It! > > > > -Dave > > > > -- > > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > > New Kensington, PA > > For shure, that's not the only one besides you... > > BTW: I'm currently 49 years old, have a little more than "normal" activity > on the net, worked as Unix Sysop for many years...but I still don't know > what for I should need Twitter and Facebook.. I've been told they are _great_ for getting rid of excess spare time. Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juQcZO_WnsI (Onion News Network about Facebook *g*) > PS: We have here in Germany aggressive Advertising from the German Telekom > for their Cloud system. > > "Die Telekom Cloud!" ...since they must use english vocables in any sentence > where it is possible to get "a modern image". Yeah, if they were at least consistent, but this "stylish" mixing of german and english words tends to produce some seriously cringeworthy things. > For any normal German that sounds like "Die Telekom klaut!" wich means in > German that they are stealing .. Nothing wrong with that perception ... Hey, they are a telco. By definition, that means they are evil and should not be trusted. ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From d235j.1 at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 17:17:11 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 18:17:11 -0400 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCE0167.10016.F03F6B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com> <4FCCC7FE.23577.120A956@cclist.sydex.com> <4FCE0167.10016.F03F6B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I've got a Drivetek OEM manual for the 320, but it's not nearly as > detailed as other OEM manuals. ?It discusses the basic philosophy of > the positioner, embedded servo, 600 RPM, etc., but no schematics or > anything other than the pinout for the 34-position connector. ?At > least that's what I remember without actually going digging for it. I managed to find quite a bit of info about this stuff in the patent for the design, US Patent 4630145. > The service literature for the Kaypro Robie may offer some additional > clues, but I suspect that there's not much, if anything, there > either. I checked, and nothing. I did find the pinout in the manual for the Data Technology DTC-500B controller card though. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dtc/DTC-500B_Series_User_Manual.pdf > I've worked on hard drives with embedded servo, the first being the > never-relased Ontrack 5.25" drive. ?There, the mechanism was a rather > complicated mechanical affair that used a system of sleeves and > solenoids to create a binary-encoded positioner. ?There's certainly a > patent circa early 1980s somewhere on that thing, even if it never > saw the light of day. Interesting! If you get a chance and dig out your drive and read out the microcontroller (or just attempt), that would be awesome. It's believed that the later code fixes some bugs in the older versions that cause disk damage, but comparing the older version would be worthwhile. Also I'm quite certain the 6.6mb drive does at least some things differently. Photos or scans of the board are useful too. I'm looking for other unusual floppy drives, but even these Kodaks are hard enough to find. --Dave From rickb at bensene.com Tue Jun 5 17:42:10 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:42:10 -0700 Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles In-Reply-To: References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: > > > [...] He had a different view of the 4052. To improve performance, the > > designers use an AMD bit-slice processor. It had to emulate the 6800 > > so the existing software base could be used. Larry said this product > > was a disaster, it didn't run much faster. Sales were poor so he had > > to cancel the product. > > Interesting because all press reports are to the contrary. I haven't done any > benchmarking between 4051 and 4052, but the 4052 is a significantly more > complex piece of equipment with the bitslice implementation of the 6800. The 4052 was in fact significantly faster than the 4051. I have both a 4051 and a 4052, and the 4052 is much faster than the 4051 in more ways than just raw CPU power. I argue what Mayhew stated as to his reasons for cancelling the series of machines. Perhaps he was speaking from a sales revenue "performance" perspective (typical of many upper-management types). Revenues for the 4051 and the later 4052/4054 fell consistently after the 4052/4054 were introduced more because of the outdated display technology used. The death of the 405x series came from its use of DVST (Direct View Storage Tube) display technology rather than performance. Raster graphics systems were gaining ground very quickly in the latter part of the 1970's, rendering DVST rather pointless in all but some very fringe environments where very high resolution was required. Even stodgy Tektronix realized this, and began designing a series of raster graphics terminals to replace its DVST terminals. Unfortunately, no such effort was made to take the 4051/4052/4054 concept and implement it using a nice raster display subsystem. Such a product could have been a major hit. The 4052/4054 used a bit-slice (AMD 2901) 16-bit implementation of the Motorola 6800 instruction set, and added microcoded floating point math instructions (utilizing unimplemented opcodes in the 6800 instruction set), along with major improvements in the code that implemented the BASIC programming environment on the machine to improve performance with math, graphics, and I/O. The 4054 added another graphics processor and a 19" DVST tube to allow even faster graphics, as well as some limited refreshed vector graphic capability (though the refreshed vectors were rather dim to prevent the storage tube from storing the image). Tek made quite a number of blunders in numerous attempts to get into the computer marketplace, all mostly a result of rather clueless management that didn't know how to market anything by Test & Measurement equipment...and when they did have good computer products, they tried to shoehorn them into the T&M business by turning them into instrumentation controllers, eliminating any chance of them succeeding in the computer marketplace. No bitterness here...all companies make mistakes. Working for Tek was one of the best employment experiences of my lifetime. I worked for Tek between 1977 and 1990, and saw many really great computer products come and go, ranging from the amazing Magnolia Smalltalk Workstation from 1976-ish, to the 405x "personal computers", to some pretty powerful desktop Unix graphic workstations in the mid-to-late 1980's. Rick Bensene From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 5 18:42:07 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 17:42:07 -0600 Subject: Converting terminals into computers (was: Re: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles) In-Reply-To: References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com> Message-ID: In article , Glen Slick writes: > On Jun 5, 2012 2:25 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > > > Interesting; so the floppy drive fits where the tape drives would have > > gone? I didn't think there was quite enough room in the cabinet for > > that. I'd love to see some pictures of it for the terminals wiki. > > -- > > No, there isn't room internally. The tape slots are blanked off. The drives > are single unit boxes chained together. Ah, that makes sense. Even for the other models of 264x, you could get the external floppy drive as an option. > Also, might be an 8085 main CPU instead of an 8080 as I first mentioned. Very possible; I have seen docs for 8008, 8080 and 8085A CPU modules. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jun 5 18:49:02 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:49:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <20120605142422.C44254@shell.lmi.net> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FCE6B60.3080501@neurotica.com> <20120605142422.C44254@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201206052349.TAA03453@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > We ALL have things which INFURIATE us, despite being in common usage. > And we can't resist reacting. Though some of us sometimes can (mostly) keep the reactions off the list. :/ > For myself, I HATE "1.44M" when referring to a drive with 1,474,560 > bytes. (1.40625 Mebibytes) The whole kibblebytes/maybebytes/gibberbytes stupidity is one of my pet peeves. I refuse to let disk manufacturers redefine storage amounts out from under me, no matter who buys into their fiction. > 1,024,000 bytes per "Megabyte"??!? Agreed, "1.44M" floppies are a particularly schizoid measurement. Not that it bothers me the way [KMGT]iB do...as you said, different folks, different hot buttons. :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Jun 5 18:53:04 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:53:04 -0400 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication References: Message-ID: <5181C117B32841E5B3DF186FC79662C7@vl420mt> Original Message: > Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:18:59 -0700 (PDT) > From: Gene Buckle > On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Mouse wrote: > >>>> Interesting, but it requires: >>>> b) That you store all your images on their web site. >> >>>> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend >>>> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites. >> >>> *applause* >> >>> THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It! >> >> You're not alone, you two...though it sure can feel like it sometimes, >> I know. >> > It's a fun gadget for a 30 year old computer. Get over yourselves. > > I'll be the first to say that if you don't physically control the hardware > your data is stored on, you don't control your data. However, whining > about storing disk images for your Commodore 64 on a remote site is just > f*cking stupid. > > I mentioned the device because I figured some folks would get a kick out > of it, not to start a whinge-fest about cloud services. > > g. -----------Reply: You could always get a Flyer: http://www.retroswitch.com/products/flyer/ An Internet modem *and* 3.5MB disk emulator for 8-bit Commodores with either IEC or IEEE488 interface that lets you use the cloud or set up your own local server. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 5 19:13:02 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 17:13:02 -0700 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On 2012 Jun 5, at 3:04 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Hey, they are a telco. By definition, that means they are evil and > should > not be trusted. ;-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEMSFx8pls Start at 1:29:00. Cheesy 60's movie with James Coburn. Lots of blinkenlights. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 5 20:01:58 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 18:01:58 -0700 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <201206052349.TAA03453@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>, <20120605142422.C44254@shell.lmi.net>, <201206052349.TAA03453@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4FCE4996.10043.7724F@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jun 2012 at 19:49, Mouse wrote: > Agreed, "1.44M" floppies are a particularly schizoid measurement. Not > that it bothers me the way [KMGT]iB do...as you said, different folks, > different hot buttons. :) You say what you have to say in order to be understood. I refer to the format/medium as "1.44M", not 1.44MB. Pick your own unit to make it come out right.. The fresh confusion over what "HD" means illustrates the problem. Perhaps something like 3.5/300/80/2/18/512MFM might be a better way, but it's not likely to be understood by many. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 5 20:03:23 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 18:03:23 -0700 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FCE0167.10016.F03F6B@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4FCE49EB.31927.8BFCE@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jun 2012 at 18:17, David Ryskalczyk wrote: > I'm looking for other unusual floppy drives, but even these Kodaks are > hard enough to find. I do have a 6.6MB Kodak drive (and media). It looks a lot like the 3.3. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 5 20:13:15 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 19:13:15 -0600 Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles In-Reply-To: References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: In article , "Rick Bensene" writes: > [...] Unfortunately, no such effort > was made to take the 4051/4052/4054 concept and implement it using a > nice raster display subsystem. Such a product could have been a major > hit. Judging from the evolution of the product line, it seems that they decided to pursue workstation type products instead of personal computer type products. When they made the shift to raster systems, they switched to CP/M-86 and unix as the operating environment to provide local graphics processing. > Tek made quite a number of blunders in numerous attempts to get into > the computer marketplace, all mostly a result of rather clueless > management that didn't know how to market anything by Test & Measurement > equipment...and when they did have good computer products, they tried to > shoehorn them into the T&M business by turning them into instrumentation > controllers, eliminating any chance of them succeeding in the computer > marketplace. Shades of Xerox PARC? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 5 20:21:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:21:31 -0400 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <201206052349.TAA03453@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FCE6B60.3080501@neurotica.com> <20120605142422.C44254@shell.lmi.net> <201206052349.TAA03453@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4FCEB09B.5000904@neurotica.com> On 06/05/2012 07:49 PM, Mouse wrote: >> We ALL have things which INFURIATE us, despite being in common usage. >> And we can't resist reacting. > > Though some of us sometimes can (mostly) keep the reactions off the > list. :/ > >> For myself, I HATE "1.44M" when referring to a drive with 1,474,560 >> bytes. (1.40625 Mebibytes) > > The whole kibblebytes/maybebytes/gibberbytes stupidity is one of my pet > peeves. I refuse to let disk manufacturers redefine storage amounts > out from under me, no matter who buys into their fiction. Yes. It's even more stupid than the whole "master and SUBORDINATE" (as opposed to the proper term "slave"), in the context of ATA-interface drives, that a certain group of professionally-offended people tried to promote. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 5 20:23:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:23:45 -0400 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <5181C117B32841E5B3DF186FC79662C7@vl420mt> References: <5181C117B32841E5B3DF186FC79662C7@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4FCEB121.6040007@neurotica.com> On 06/05/2012 07:53 PM, MikeS wrote: > You could always get a Flyer: > http://www.retroswitch.com/products/flyer/ > > An Internet modem *and* 3.5MB disk emulator for 8-bit Commodores with > either > IEC or IEEE488 interface that lets you use the cloud or set up your own > local server. An "Internet modem"? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 5 21:00:09 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 19:00:09 -0700 Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles In-Reply-To: References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4FCEB9A9.3040908@brouhaha.com> Rick Bensene wrote about Tektronix stuff: > ranging from the amazing Magnolia Smalltalk Workstation from > 1976-ish, Really? That date is extremely hard to believe. Adele Goldberg wrote in "The Smalltalk-80 System Release Process" (in _Smalltalk-80: Bits of History, Words of Advice_, June 1983) that the first release of Smalltalk to licensees (Apple, DEC, HP, and Tektronix) did not occur until February 17, 1981, with updated releases on July 24, 1981 and November 18, 1981. "Implementing the Smalltalk-80 System: The Tektronix Experience" by Paul L. McCullough, copyright 1982 and printed in the same book, describes the initial bringup at Tektronix. It doesn't give a date for the start of the effort, but after describing the initial bringup, states "About this time, we received the second virtual image from Xerox Palo Alto Research Center (PARC)." This suggests that they received the first and second images at times consistent with the release dates in the Goldberg paper. Didn't Magnolia use the Motorola MC68000 microprocessor? Motorola didn't announce that until September 1979, and while it's certainly possible that Motorola provided Tektronix with preliminary data on it prior to that, Motorola didn't have working silicon until late 1979. Allen Wirfs-Brock's resume describes how he was involved in the Tektronix review of the draft Smalltalk-80 books in 1980-1981, and that review occurred before Xerox released the image. From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 21:00:20 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 22:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> Actually, it does use the bit-banger serial port and it does communicate >> at 115.2kps quite reliably. The author of the drivewire server tells me > > That's impressive. PResumably the protocol is designed so that hte CoCO > knows when characters will be sent to it (for example it requests a > packet from the host, and cna then wait for a knwon number of charcters). > > Even so, it must tie up the CPU when receivign data from the host. That's > going to be rather unpleasant on a multiuser machine. It's surprisingly unobtrusive. You can even telnet into the CoCo by accessing the server. Check it out at: https://sites.google.com/site/drivewire4/ For even more fun, you can use DriveWire from an FPGA CoCo. This runs a synthesized, 25Mhz. 6809 on an Altera DE1 board. It will cheerfully communicate at 430Kbps with a DW server. Steve -- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 5 21:07:12 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <4FCEB121.6040007@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jun 5, 12 09:23:45 pm" Message-ID: <201206060207.q5627CDu14876826@floodgap.com> > > You could always get a Flyer: > > http://www.retroswitch.com/products/flyer/ > > > > An Internet modem *and* 3.5MB disk emulator for 8-bit Commodores with > > either > > IEC or IEEE488 interface that lets you use the cloud or set up your own > > local server. > > An "Internet modem"? Presumably referring to the modified Hayes command set ("dial" an IP address and port instead of a telephone number). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If I wanted your opinion, I'd have beaten it out of you. ------------------- From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jun 5 21:31:39 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:31:39 -0500 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <201206060207.q5627CDu14876826@floodgap.com> References: <201206060207.q5627CDu14876826@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FCEC10B.4030103@jbrain.com> On 6/5/2012 9:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> You could always get a Flyer: >>> http://www.retroswitch.com/products/flyer/ >>> >>> An Internet modem *and* 3.5MB disk emulator for 8-bit Commodores with >>> either >>> IEC or IEEE488 interface that lets you use the cloud or set up your own >>> local server. >> An "Internet modem"? > Presumably referring to the modified Hayes command set ("dial" an IP address > and port instead of a telephone number). > Hehe, yep, which is what we call this type of SW. 'tcpser' is an internet (tcp/ip) "modem emulator" utility. -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 5 21:49:43 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 22:49:43 -0400 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <201206060207.q5627CDu14876826@floodgap.com> References: <201206060207.q5627CDu14876826@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FCEC547.6040407@neurotica.com> On 06/05/2012 10:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> You could always get a Flyer: >>> http://www.retroswitch.com/products/flyer/ >>> >>> An Internet modem *and* 3.5MB disk emulator for 8-bit Commodores with >>> either >>> IEC or IEEE488 interface that lets you use the cloud or set up your own >>> local server. >> >> An "Internet modem"? > > Presumably referring to the modified Hayes command set ("dial" an IP address > and port instead of a telephone number). Oh, those. I work with that mess on a daily basis. The AT command reference guide is 559 pages long...no typo! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 5 21:59:16 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEMSFx8pls > Start at 1:29:00. > Cheesy 60's movie with James Coburn. Lots of blinkenlights. You didn't even identify it, but what else could it possibly be but, "The Presiden'ts Analyst"!? TPC, indeed! From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jun 5 22:21:52 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 23:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEMSFx8pls >> Start at 1:29:00. >> Cheesy 60's movie with James Coburn. Lots of blinkenlights. > > You didn't even identify it, but what else could it possibly be but, "The > Presiden'ts Analyst"!? Panels from the SAGE computer were used as props in that movie: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/scifi/Analyst/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 5 22:25:58 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <4FCEB121.6040007@neurotica.com> References: <5181C117B32841E5B3DF186FC79662C7@vl420mt> <4FCEB121.6040007@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120605202523.B52881@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > An "Internet modem"? 2400 bps or higher? From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Tue Jun 5 23:02:43 2012 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:02:43 -0800 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: References: <1043ab2089f.0000019an0body.h0me@inbox.com> <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> <08e601cd4338$2992f9a0$7cb8ece0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <16D4DB7DF2E.000009EFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Now see, I used to have one almost like that; it was a different color (off white), quite a bit shorter, and it didn't have that mounting screw.... > -----Original Message----- > From: glen.slick at gmail.com > Sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 09:40:16 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > > On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: >> Not having seen a BC18Z I can't say, but I could post photos of the >> BC19S if that helps. The BC19S has a block near the BNC connectors where >> you plug in the keyboard and mouse, it also has a screw sticking out of >> the block, I think it is designed to screw into certain CRTs to hold the >> block in place. >> > > Does it look just like this, but maybe shorter? > > http://www.circuitsurgeon.com/forsale/bc18z.jpg > (not my picture, just found it on the net) > > How long is your BC19S? I think the BC18Z I have is a -25 foot > version, which is a bit longer than I need. ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 5 23:53:33 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:53:33 -0700 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...) In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FCEE24D.9040108@brouhaha.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend > towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites. When used in regard to computing, the "u" in the word "cloud" is silent. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 6 00:17:09 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 22:17:09 -0700 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2012 Jun 5, at 7:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEMSFx8pls >> Start at 1:29:00. >> Cheesy 60's movie with James Coburn. Lots of blinkenlights. > > You didn't even identify it, but what else could it possibly be > but, "The > Presiden'ts Analyst"!? Well, I thought I'd leave a little discovery for the enthused, although I guess it's not just a click away for everybody. You mean you knew without having to check? Sheer coincidence, I ran across it just the night before. Seems I somehow missed it in the intervening 44 years. And I like to think I'm pretty well versed in 60's flicks, so it was a surprise. > TPC, indeed! "And because of this irrational dislike of their own publically-owned company, they often don't pay their bills and sometimes even damage the equipment!" From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jun 6 00:37:00 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 22:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCE49EB.31927.8BFCE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FCE0167.10016.F03F6B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FCE49EB.31927.8BFCE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Jun 2012 at 18:17, David Ryskalczyk wrote: > >> I'm looking for other unusual floppy drives, but even these Kodaks are >> hard enough to find. > > I do have a 6.6MB Kodak drive (and media). It looks a lot like the > 3.3. How about some photos and a write-up? They would be nice to add that to Wikipedia's articles on floppy disks. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 6 00:40:00 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 22:40:00 -0700 Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2012 Jun 5, at 8:21 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEMSFx8pls >>> Start at 1:29:00. >>> Cheesy 60's movie with James Coburn. Lots of blinkenlights. >> >> You didn't even identify it, but what else could it possibly be >> but, "The >> Presiden'ts Analyst"!? > > Panels from the SAGE computer were used as props in that movie: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/scifi/Analyst/ (.. yes, I did recognise them) What I always wondered about those SAGE consoles used in the movies is how the props people wrested them out of the Air Force so early. SAGE had barely become fully functional when they got them (from your pages Fox obtained them in 1966; from the MITRE site SAGE was fully functional in 1964). Sure, some of the production was some years older, but not very. - Here's a little hindsight thought experiment: if the SAGE hardware had been reimplemented in solid-state in, say, the late 60s, would it have been more cost-effective than running and maintaining the tube version for the remaining 15 or so years of the system's life? I suppose the real-politik answer is the system was obsolete by that time anyways and it was just bureaucratic face-saving that kept it running, but I'm thinking of the technical answer. From microcode at zoho.com Wed Jun 6 00:52:31 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 05:52:31 +0000 Subject: Mystery Panel In-Reply-To: <4FCE756B.4000107@update.uu.se> References: <4FCE756B.4000107@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201206060552.q565qbZF047882@billy.ezwind.net> On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 23:08:59 +0200 Pontus wrote: > It looks vaguely IBM-ish. I don't think so. It's very crude. > Like a status header for a tape drive? You can see words like EAST VEST. Maybe in a Nordic language, I figured you would know! Maybe it's an antenna rotator or something like that? > > https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/MysteryTelcoPanel From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 6 00:54:46 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 22:54:46 -0700 Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FCEF0A6.6090705@bitsavers.org> On 6/5/12 10:40 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > if the SAGE hardware had been reimplemented in solid-state It was reimplemented by IBM As the IBM 4020. Two were built one became the AN/FSQ-32 timesharing system at SDC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/FSQ-32 SAGE was already an obsolete technology because of the ICBM before the transistorized systems were built. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 6 01:19:02 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 23:19:02 -0700 Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <4FCEF0A6.6090705@bitsavers.org> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net> <4FCEF0A6.6090705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <91DDA45A-BE85-4EF0-BAF6-9F61032B2E6D@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Jun 5, at 10:54 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/5/12 10:40 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> if the SAGE hardware had been reimplemented in solid-state > > It was reimplemented by IBM As the IBM 4020. Two were built > one became the AN/FSQ-32 timesharing system at SDC. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/FSQ-32 > > SAGE was already an obsolete technology because of the ICBM > before the transistorized systems were built. Very interesting. I get the feeling from the description though, that it was targetted to replace SAGE, rather than reimplementing the SAGE architecture. In any case, it never did replace SAGE, so my question is still there, along with why the 32 didn't do (perhaps too early as a solid- state machine, to make it worthwhile). From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 03:26:27 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 10:26:27 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Still looking for a floppy based OS. > > What, for the P800s? > > THey'll take some finding, but I should have the OS for my P851 (this has > 32K words of MOS memory, a termianl interface and an FDC). I will see > what I can dig out. I'll second that request. On the P859, I got the floppy drive going. Using the FLDB interface card, set to the correct CU address, I can elicit head movements on the 8" floppy drive by doing an IPL from device 03. Of course, I have no floppies for the P800s, let alone IPL'able ones. Most of the 8" media I have is RX01. Btw, Tony, I just noticed you have P850 in your e-mail address. I take it this is unintentional? Camiel. From eivinde at terraplane.org Wed Jun 6 04:25:35 2012 From: eivinde at terraplane.org (Eivind Evensen) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 11:25:35 +0200 Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 10:20:00PM +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote: > BTW: I'm currently 49 years old, have a little more than "normal" activity > on the net, worked as Unix Sysop for many years...but I still don't know > what for I should need Twitter and Facebook.. It's there to waste time. Or optionally so people can reveal parts of they private life, then regret they didn't keep it private. -- Eivind From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jun 6 08:01:04 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 09:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Jun 5, at 8:21 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> >> Panels from the SAGE computer were used as props in that movie: >> >> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/scifi/Analyst/ > > (.. yes, I did recognise them) > > What I always wondered about those SAGE consoles used in the movies is how > the props people wrested them out of the Air Force so early. SAGE had barely > become fully functional when they got them (from your pages Fox obtained them > in 1966; from the MITRE site SAGE was fully functional in 1964). Sure, some > of the production was some years older, but not very. According to Radomes: http://www.radomes.org/museum/sagedocs.html ...the first SAGE site to be decommissioned was Beale AFB in August of 1963. The equipment from Beale was a likely candidate to end up at either Fox or Vectrex. Decommissioning dates: Beale AFB, CA 08/01/63 Minot AFB, ND 08/15/63 Larson AFB, WA 09/01/63 Grand Forks AFB, ND 12/01/63 K.I.Sawyer AFB, MI 12/15/63 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 6 08:15:23 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 06:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> from Eivind Evensen at "Jun 6, 12 11:25:35 am" Message-ID: <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> > > BTW: I'm currently 49 years old, have a little more than "normal" activity > > on the net, worked as Unix Sysop for many years...but I still don't know > > what for I should need Twitter and Facebook.. > > It's there to waste time. Or optionally so people can reveal > parts of they private life, then regret they didn't keep it private. I use Twitter as sort of a "hep IRC." But it helps to have your own client (TTYtter), which is text-based, and the presence of a (somewhat) stable 3rd party API is Twitter's ace in the hole. So it cuts down on a lot of crap to have it whistling merrily away in a terminal window and I can glance at it when I notice a lot of activity. I don't trust Facebook. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The fact that it works is immaterial. -- L. Ogborn ------------------------- From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 08:48:04 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 06:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives Message-ID: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have 2 count them 2 Zenith minisports with 2.5 inch drives. Now thats unusual. No disks though. ------------------------------ On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 10:37 PM PDT David Griffith wrote: >On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 5 Jun 2012 at 18:17, David Ryskalczyk wrote: >> >> I'm looking for other unusual floppy drives, but even these Kodaks are >> hard enough to find. >> >> I do have a 6.6MB Kodak drive (and media). It looks a lot like the >> 3.3. > >How about some photos and a write-up? They would be nice to add that to >Wikipedia's articles on floppy disks. > >-- >David Griffith >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > >A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jun 6 09:50:49 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:50:49 +0200 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > BTW: I'm currently 49 years old, have a little more than "normal" activity > > > on the net, worked as Unix Sysop for many years...but I still don't know > > > what for I should need Twitter and Facebook.. > > > > It's there to waste time. Or optionally so people can reveal > > parts of they private life, then regret they didn't keep it private. > > I use Twitter as sort of a "hep IRC." But it helps to have your own client > (TTYtter), which is text-based, and the presence of a (somewhat) stable 3rd > party API is Twitter's ace in the hole. So it cuts down on a lot of crap > to have it whistling merrily away in a terminal window and I can glance at it > when I notice a lot of activity. > > I don't trust Facebook. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- The fact that it works is immaterial. -- L. Ogborn ------------------------- Hmm, it seems, that I don't even need something like IRC.. I do have a phone flaterate, it is much less hassle to call the person on the phone... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 10:08:37 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:08:37 +0100 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 6 June 2012 15:50, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hmm, it seems, that I don't even need something like IRC.. > I do have a phone flaterate, it is much less hassle to call the person on > the phone... Oh come now, don't be silly. You can't readily talk to dozens of different people at once, all over the world, free of charge, including possibly people who are deaf or who can read and write a common language but not speak it, using a single phone call. And even if you could, you could not realistically remain present in said conference-call, occasionally interacting with it, while you went ahead with other tasks at the same time. This is like the Luddite friends of mine who refuse to use social networks or email and complain that I could just phone them when I want to invite them to an event. I commonly invite a couple of hundred people at once to events. I cannot do that by phoning them all; even emailing them all is a major pain. This is the sort of thing social networks excel at. You don't have to use them; feel free not to. But my friend who refuse to are, by and large, friends who I do not invite to things. They don't have to use the socnets, but equally, I do not have to waste hours of my time and lots of money individually contacting those people who refuse to use nasty modern tools. I could also write letters to those who can't or won't use nasty modern telephones. I could personally visit those who won't use the post. I could arrange the event somewhere with car parking for those who will not use public transport; I could be sure to arrange it in walking distance for those who will not use wheeled vehicles. Yes, I know of people who refuse all these things. But I am not going to do it. *They* expect *me* to go to special lengths because of *their* idiosyncratic, non-conformist preferences and neophobia. Well, no. There is no single point at which you can draw a line and say, up to this point is reasonable, but beyond it is unreasonable. Socnets are just a tool - a free and easy one. Sure, don't use them if you don't want, but in doing so you must accept that you are going to miss out on lots of stuff. That's fine - it's your choice. But it is not fair or acceptable to ask others to go out of their way or to endure inconvenience to satisfy your whimsical preferences. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 10:22:51 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 11:22:51 -0400 Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Here's a little hindsight thought experiment: if the SAGE hardware had been > reimplemented in solid-state in, say, the late 60s, would it have been more > cost-effective than running and maintaining the tube version for the > remaining 15 or so years of the system's life? "Cost effective" would never have been an issue. Running an AN/FSQ-7, as expensive as it sounds, is peanuts compared to just keeping one F-102 aircraft fed and maintained. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 10:31:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 08:31:47 -0700 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FCF1573.30855.95EED@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2012 at 6:48, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I have 2 count them 2 Zenith minisports with 2.5 inch drives. Now > thats unusual. No disks though. ------------------------------ Yup, I've seen them. AFAIK, the Minisport was the only widely- available system to use them, unless there was an early digicam. No radical advance in technology, just a different physical size. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 10:33:31 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 08:33:31 -0700 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FCE49EB.31927.8BFCE@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4FCF15DB.10570.AF53C@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jun 2012 at 22:37, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 5 Jun 2012 at 18:17, David Ryskalczyk wrote: > > > >> I'm looking for other unusual floppy drives, but even these Kodaks > >> are hard enough to find. > > > > I do have a 6.6MB Kodak drive (and media). It looks a lot like the > > 3.3. > > How about some photos and a write-up? They would be nice to add that > to Wikipedia's articles on floppy disks. The media looks like ordinary 5.25" media, so no interesting there. The drive itself looks a lot like the 320. Kodak really didn't do much with the technology after they picked it up from the wreckage of Drivetec. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 6 11:59:47 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 09:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCF1573.30855.95EED@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FCF1573.30855.95EED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120606095443.S71164@shell.lmi.net> > On 6 Jun 2012 at 6:48, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I have 2 count them 2 Zenith minisports with 2.5 inch drives. Now > > thats unusual. No disks though. ------------------------------ On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yup, I've seen them. AFAIK, the Minisport was the only widely- > available system to use them, unless there was an early digicam. No > radical advance in technology, just a different physical size. Wasn't there a camera (Canon?) that used them? Or was that a DIFFERENT 2.5"? - there were several competing 2.5" (and a 2.9" spiral) technologies being shown around that time. "Market research studies, and Bernie Zilbergeld, say that it is 'TOO small'" Wonder whether they ever adapted to SD and MICRO-SD? All media in that size range should have a hole through it (center or corner) to string them together on a key-ring. From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Jun 6 12:02:30 2012 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 13:02:30 -0400 Subject: Byte Magazines For Sale Message-ID: <201206061702.q56H2nTR062618@billy.ezwind.net> I set up a page to sell of spare Byte magazine copies. The page has directions, will ship worldwide. http://www.degnanco.net/contact_byte.cfm Bill vintagecomputer.net From jecel at merlintec.com Wed Jun 6 12:31:33 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 14:31:33 -0300 Subject: Tek 4404 launch (was: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles) In-Reply-To: <4FCEB9A9.3040908@brouhaha.com> References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu> <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net> <4FCEB9A9.3040908@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201206061731.q56HVk6A063409@billy.ezwind.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Rick Bensene wrote about Tektronix stuff: > > ranging from the amazing Magnolia Smalltalk Workstation from > > 1976-ish, > > Really? That date is extremely hard to believe. Yeah, I had been interested in creating a Smalltalk computer since the famous August 1981 Byte but had figured lots of well funded companies would do a better job. By July 1984 it seemed that nobody was going to do it, so I started the project I am still working on today (sorry - I am a bit slooooow). The Tektronix 4404 Artificial Intelligence Workstation was announced right after that, so I had to consider very carefully whether it made sense for me to continue. I figured I could make a smaller, but still usable version for around 1/3 of the $14,950 price and so it was worth trying. Allen Wirfs-Brock posted technical details about the machine on September 18, 1984 to the "net.works" newsgroup and suggested that people take a look at the next Tektronix catalog. I have the 1985 catalog and page 63 is dedicated to the 4404. > https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/net.works/K5i_oHCJuAk -- Jecel p.s.: Smalltalk-72 and -74 were very different from the current language, while -76 (available in 1977) would be recognized as Smalltalk by today's programmers From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 6 12:39:31 2012 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 19:39:31 +0200 Subject: 2.9" spiral disks. Was: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCF95D3.4040401@xs4all.nl> > Wasn't there a camera (Canon?) that used them? Or was that a DIFFERENT > 2.5"? - there were several competing 2.5" (and a 2.9" spiral) technologies > being shown around that time. Akai used a 2.8" spiral disk in a range of samplers in 1985. To add to the confusion, the disks were called QD, for "quick disk". The whole disk was read into memory in one read action, maybe that makes them quick. http://www.vintagesynth.com/akai/s612.php Fred Jan From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jun 6 12:41:10 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 19:41:10 +0200 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de> Liam Proven wrote: > On 6 June 2012 15:50, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > Hmm, it seems, that I don't even need something like IRC.. > > I do have a phone flaterate, it is much less hassle to call the person on > > the phone... > > Oh come now, don't be silly. > > You can't readily talk to dozens of different people at once, all over > the world, free of charge, including possibly people who are deaf or > who can read and write a common language but not speak it, using a > single phone call. And even if you could, you could not realistically > remain present in said conference-call, occasionally interacting with > it, while you went ahead with other tasks at the same time. > > This is like the Luddite friends of mine who refuse to use social > networks or email and complain that I could just phone them when I > want to invite them to an event. > > I commonly invite a couple of hundred people at once to events. I > cannot do that by phoning them all; even emailing them all is a major > pain. This is the sort of thing social networks excel at. > > You don't have to use them; feel free not to. But my friend who refuse > to are, by and large, friends who I do not invite to things. > > They don't have to use the socnets, but equally, I do not have to > waste hours of my time and lots of money individually contacting those > people who refuse to use nasty modern tools. > > I could also write letters to those who can't or won't use nasty > modern telephones. I could personally visit those who won't use the > post. I could arrange the event somewhere with car parking for those > who will not use public transport; I could be sure to arrange it in > walking distance for those who will not use wheeled vehicles. > > Yes, I know of people who refuse all these things. > > But I am not going to do it. *They* expect *me* to go to special > lengths because of *their* idiosyncratic, non-conformist preferences > and neophobia. > > Well, no. There is no single point at which you can draw a line and > say, up to this point is reasonable, but beyond it is unreasonable. > > Socnets are just a tool - a free and easy one. Sure, don't use them if > you don't want, but in doing so you must accept that you are going to > miss out on lots of stuff. That's fine - it's your choice. But it is > not fair or acceptable to ask others to go out of their way or to > endure inconvenience to satisfy your whimsical preferences. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 Hehe, it seems you have problems I don't have and that I don't want. If you need to invite hundrets of people to eveents, please do that like you want, I just don't need to do that. I can mail all of my friends and all of my customers or only some of them, no need to chat... that's all. I don't have any phobia, but it seems you have one: that you are get disconnected... Anyways, do what you like, so as I do. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 6 12:51:58 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 10:51:58 -0700 Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <7BFEF1E5-B2AA-4037-90DE-BF2787C1E416@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Jun 6, at 6:01 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> What I always wondered about those SAGE consoles used in the >> movies is how the props people wrested them out of the Air Force >> so early. SAGE had barely become fully functional when they got >> them (from your pages Fox obtained them in 1966; from the MITRE >> site SAGE was fully functional in 1964). Sure, some of the >> production was some years older, but not very. > > According to Radomes: > > http://www.radomes.org/museum/sagedocs.html > > ...the first SAGE site to be decommissioned was Beale AFB in > August of 1963. The equipment from Beale was a likely candidate to > end up at either Fox or Vectrex. > > Decommissioning dates: > > Beale AFB, CA 08/01/63 > Minot AFB, ND 08/15/63 > Larson AFB, WA 09/01/63 > Grand Forks AFB, ND 12/01/63 > K.I.Sawyer AFB, MI 12/15/63 Thanks for finding that, wish the data were organised in one table though. Going through the pages it looks like most of the sites were deactivated by 1969. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 13:02:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 11:02:03 -0700 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20120606095443.S71164@shell.lmi.net> References: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <4FCF1573.30855.95EED@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120606095443.S71164@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FCF38AB.6489.92F036@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2012 at 9:59, Fred Cisin wrote: > Wasn't there a camera (Canon?) that used them? Or was that a > DIFFERENT 2.5"? - there were several competing 2.5" (and a 2.9" > spiral) technologies being shown around that time. Well, we still have hard-disk Microdrives (e.g. IBM, Seagate, Qrisma) that fall into that category, even if they're sealed units. 3.25" floppies were a particularly bad idea--there's no way they'd survive long carried in a shirt pocket. > All media in that size range should have a hole through it (center or > corner) to string them together on a key-ring. MicroSD is indeed too smal in my experience. I have a jar sitting on my desk here that holds SD and MicroSD (and MMC) chips. Otherwise, I'd lose them in a drawer. As far as hanging off a keyring, I've long thought that was a bad idea, if you actually have keys on the same ring, as well as coins in the same pocket. If I look at the keys on my keyring, several have had the nickel plating abraded off simply from being carried around. I'm on my fourth or fifth mini tape-measure, others having been chewed up and I never could get a keyring LED to hold up for more than a couple of months. But even for an old guy, I'm pretty active. Office-chair pilots and couch potatoes may get better mileage from their pocket memory devices. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 6 13:01:10 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 11:01:10 -0700 Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <402E3063-15D2-4957-BE32-31D61D8B56DD@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Jun 6, at 8:22 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Here's a little hindsight thought experiment: if the SAGE hardware >> had been >> reimplemented in solid-state in, say, the late 60s, would it have >> been more >> cost-effective than running and maintaining the tube version for the >> remaining 15 or so years of the system's life? > > "Cost effective" would never have been an issue. Running an AN/FSQ-7, > as expensive as it sounds, is peanuts compared to just keeping one > F-102 aircraft fed and maintained. No, not to the bureaucracy (I was getting at that in my first message). Going from the pages Mike ref'd, I didn't realise so many of the sites had been decommissioned so early and only a lesser portion hung on to the 80s. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 13:09:12 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 11:09:12 -0700 Subject: 2.9" spiral disks. Was: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCF95D3.4040401@xs4all.nl> References: , <4FCF95D3.4040401@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4FCF3A58.6609.997CB9@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2012 at 19:39, Fred Jan Kraan wrote: > Akai used a 2.8" spiral disk in a range of samplers in 1985. To add to > the confusion, the disks were called QD, for "quick disk". The whole > disk was read into memory in one read action, maybe that makes them > quick. > > http://www.vintagesynth.com/akai/s612.php Also used on Smith-Corona portable wapros, called "DataDisk" (as opposed to "ChoppedLiverDisk") and sold as 2.8". SCM used about 50KHz MFM recording and got about 60K on each. Same disk as the synth one, different label. I think the drives in both cases were the same. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jun 6 13:23:18 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 14:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <201206061823.OAA17270@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Socnets are just a tool - a free and easy one. Um. No. They are not free. They entail some substantial costs - non-monetary, many of them, but that does not make them any less costs. They entail surrendering a substantial level of control over one's privacy and various aspects of one's own identity. In many cases they demand a relatively modern computer and, in some of those cases, turning control of it over to someone else's software. These may be costs you consider ignorable. They may be costs you have already paid. But they are still costs, costs that for some people are significant. As for `easy', that's a very personal judgement call. I have watched people use Facebook and its ilk; there is very little I would find easy about using them. >> Sure, don't use them if you don't want, but in doing so you must >> accept that you are going to miss out on lots of stuff. That's fine >> - it's your choice. But it is not fair or acceptable to ask others >> to go out of their way or to endure inconvenience to satisfy your >> whimsical preferences. Why not? You seem to feel it's perfectly acceptable to ask _us_ to put up with _your_ preferences.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 13:28:00 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 14:28:00 -0400 Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <402E3063-15D2-4957-BE32-31D61D8B56DD@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net> <402E3063-15D2-4957-BE32-31D61D8B56DD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Going from the pages Mike ref'd, I didn't realise so many of the sites had > been decommissioned so early and only a lesser portion hung on to the 80s. I wonder if that has to do with better radars? -- Will From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jun 6 13:28:39 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 14:28:39 -0400 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message: Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:08:37 +0100 From: Liam Proven > ...I commonly invite a couple of hundred people at once to events. I > cannot do that by phoning them all; even emailing them all is a major > pain. This is the sort of thing social networks excel at. > You don't have to use them; feel free not to. But my friend who refuse to > are, by and large, friends who I do not invite to things. ----- Reply: Considering how little you obviously value those "friendships", they probably don't mind at all... And I suppose even semi-professional writers ignoring rules of grammar is just another one of those modern "efficiencies"... Signs of the times... From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 13:33:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 11:33:00 -0700 Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <7BFEF1E5-B2AA-4037-90DE-BF2787C1E416@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>, , <7BFEF1E5-B2AA-4037-90DE-BF2787C1E416@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4FCF3FEC.19690.AF4795@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2012 at 10:51, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Thanks for finding that, wish the data were organised in one table > though. Going through the pages it looks like most of the sites were > deactivated by 1969. At one point in my life, I had a unit manager who'd gotten his experience with SAGE. He said the operators used to stash lunch bags in the cabinets to keep the contents warm. I have no idea if he was pulling my leg... --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 13:33:30 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 14:33:30 -0400 Subject: Mac IIci/IIcx/Quadra 700 PSU schematics? Message-ID: <35704CA5-D185-4EB9-A07D-A58700E421A1@gmail.com> I've recently acquired a Quadra 700 from eBay. The power supply seems to be dead in the water; no voltage whatsoever on any of the lines, including the +5v trickle. Before I go delving into finding what may be wrong with the supply, does anyone happen to have a schematic for the GE version of this power supply? There's one available from bomarc.org, but they only deal with physical checks and mail, which means it would probably be about a week before I got anything back. Likewise, if anyone knows common failure modes for this particular supply (the Astec one has a known failure in the +5v trickle with a known hackish workaround, but the GE supply has a totally different reference designator schema and possibly completely different circuitry), I'd be interested in hearing about it. - Dave From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jun 6 13:37:49 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 14:37:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <402E3063-15D2-4957-BE32-31D61D8B56DD@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com> <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net> <402E3063-15D2-4957-BE32-31D61D8B56DD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Going from the pages Mike ref'd, I didn't realise so many of the sites had > been decommissioned so early and only a lesser portion hung on to the 80s. To add to that history, the Hughes 5118/1116-based AN/FYQ-93 which replaced the AN/FSQ-7 (SAGE) at McChord was in service from 1983 until 2006. Its replacement was the AN/FYQ-156 BCS-F (Battle Control System - Fixed), built around HP servers: http://www.radomes.org/museum/equip/radarequip.php?link=fyq-156.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 13:57:03 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 19:57:03 +0100 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 6 June 2012 18:41, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hehe, it seems you have problems I don't have and that I don't want. What problems? > If you need to invite hundrets of people to eveents, please do that like > you want, I just don't need to do that. Well, if you don't have many friends or never throw big parties, I am a little sorry for you. Personally, I am gregarious and have lots of friends. :?) > I can mail all of my friends and all of my customers or only some of them, > no need to chat... that's all. So can I. Sometimes, it is quicker and easier to use a socnet. It is easier for me to pick, say, the London-based people out of my ~800 friends on Facebook than to choose their email addresses from the ~5000 people in my address book. > I don't have any phobia, but it seems you have one: that you are get > disconnected... Not at all. It's a tool, nothing more. If you don't want to use it, fine, but it makes you look foolish if you criticise others for no other reason than that they do use it, or because you don't know how to. I've been an IT support professional for 25 years. My tools are my hands and my brain; I used to carry around some physical media with a few handy programs on. I don't use a soldering iron - have not since the 1980s - or a multimeter, ever. Others regard these as essential tools. Neither of us is "right" or "wrong" - they're just tools for a job. I'm primarily a software support guy; if there is a hardware failure, all I have to do is diagnose it and get someone else to fix it, generally. Others are specialists in hardware repair and would not know a Group Policy from an XML schema. That's fine, too. You seem to be judging tools by your own use for them, and people by the tools they use. That is unwise. > Anyways, do what you like, so as I do. I usually do. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 13:59:46 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 19:59:46 +0100 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <201206061823.OAA17270@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de> <201206061823.OAA17270@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 6 June 2012 19:23, Mouse wrote: >>> Socnets are just a tool - a free and easy one. > > Um. ?No. > > They are not free. ?They entail some substantial costs - non-monetary, > many of them, but that does not make them any less costs. ?They entail > surrendering a substantial level of control over one's privacy and > various aspects of one's own identity. ?In many cases they demand a > relatively modern computer and, in some of those cases, turning control > of it over to someone else's software. Life involves costs. Big deal. If I don't have to pay money for something, that means that it's free, in the common daily use of the word. > These may be costs you consider ignorable. ?They may be costs you have > already paid. ?But they are still costs, costs that for some people are > significant. Scott McNeally said it first and best. "You *have* no privacy on the Internet. Get over it." Nobody is forcing you to use it. Feel free not to. > As for `easy', that's a very personal judgement call. ?I have watched > people use Facebook and its ilk; there is very little I would find easy > about using them. Let me just check that I've got this straight. So you feel that you are not competent to use a modern website that is used by about a billion people and it's the *website's* fault? Riiiiiiiiiiight... :?D >>> Sure, don't use them if you don't want, but in doing so you must >>> accept that you are going to miss out on lots of stuff. ?That's fine >>> - it's your choice. ?But it is not fair or acceptable to ask others >>> to go out of their way or to endure inconvenience to satisfy your >>> whimsical preferences. > > Why not? ?You seem to feel it's perfectly acceptable to ask _us_ to put > up with _your_ preferences.... Such as? The line-length thing? Oh get real! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 6 12:44:10 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 18:44:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jun 5, 12 10:37:18 pm Message-ID: > Of my 858/859 CPU's, some are CP7R and some are CP7RA. I don't know > what the difference between these two is. The difference between the > 858 and the 859 is whether a front panel with lamps and toggle > switches is fitted (858) or a front panel with fluorescent hexadecimal > displays and pushbuttons (859). In the P854, there are 2 RS232 serial ports on the CPU boards. I think they use 8251 USARTs, and are controleld by the processor microcode. One is used for the console terminal, the other commnicates with the frontpanel, which is a keypad thing wit ha pair of VF displays. There's a microcontrolelr (an 8748 I think) on the frontpanel board. Is the P859 like this? Does the P858 lights-and-swithces panel communicate over an serial link. If so, I'd love to know more.... Do you ahve nay docuemtnaion which includes eitehr the source code for the panel micrcontrolelr firmware or the communications protocol? -tony From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jun 6 14:10:08 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 15:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <4FCF3FEC.19690.AF4795@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>, , <7BFEF1E5-B2AA-4037-90DE-BF2787C1E416@cs.ubc.ca> <4FCF3FEC.19690.AF4795@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > At one point in my life, I had a unit manager who'd gotten his > experience with SAGE. He said the operators used to stash lunch bags > in the cabinets to keep the contents warm. I have no idea if he was > pulling my leg... Doubtful. The air going through the frames was cold and the equipment was not warm, to my recollection. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jun 6 14:24:15 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 21:24:15 +0200 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <20120606182456.CD9E7929A4FB@bmail.freibergnet.de> References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120606182456.CD9E7929A4FB@bmail.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120606192415.GC66968@beast.freibergnet.de> microcode at zoho.com wrote: > Hi Holm > > > I don't have any phobia, but it seems you have one: that you are get > > disconnected... > > No kidding, look at the guy's signature! No less than 14 points of contact! > I could understand if he was a stockbroker or movie star but... > > > > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > > > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > > > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > > > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > > Anyways, do what you like, so as I do. > > He's been an idiot for a long time on this list and this post finally was > too much. He's in my killfile and I don't ever have to read his garbage > again unless somebody quotes his whole post ;-) > > Cheers! > > Israel > People always conclude by themselves on others. Congrats! The sig is containing the information that the german law will see as minimum for business related mail. Don't remember that I've read ever anything interesting from you,i this Mail included... Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jun 6 14:59:32 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 21:59:32 +0200 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120606195932.GA76506@beast.freibergnet.de> Liam Proven wrote: > On 6 June 2012 18:41, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hehe, it seems you have problems I don't have and that I don't want. > > What problems? You want to contact hundreds of people, this is a technical problem, that I simply not have. > > > If you need to invite hundrets of people to eveents, please do that like > > you want, I just don't need to do that. > > Well, if you don't have many friends or never throw big parties, I am > a little sorry for you. Personally, I am gregarious and have lots of > friends. :?) I prefer to have really a smaller amount of "real" friends. > > > I can mail all of my friends and all of my customers or only some of them, > > no need to chat... that's all. > > So can I. Sometimes, it is quicker and easier to use a socnet. It is > easier for me to pick, say, the London-based people out of my ~800 > friends on Facebook than to choose their email addresses from the > ~5000 people in my address book. > > > I don't have any phobia, but it seems you have one: that you are get > > disconnected... > > Not at all. It's a tool, nothing more. If you don't want to use it, > fine, but it makes you look foolish if you criticise others for no > other reason than that they do use it, or because you don't know how > to. Maybe that's the language difference (We could always try to write in german, I never had english in a school), I don't want/wanted to criticise you or others for using Socnets, this was never my intention. I'm not using them and I never missed something like that. That is just my point of view, but no criticism. > > I've been an IT support professional for 25 years. My tools are my > hands and my brain; I used to carry around some physical media with a > few handy programs on. Same here. > I don't use a soldering iron - have not since > the 1980s - or a multimeter, ever. I do hardware, repairing developing and programming but not building besides of hobby projects or prototypes. > > Others regard these as essential tools. > > Neither of us is "right" or "wrong" - they're just tools for a job. > I'm primarily a software support guy; if there is a hardware failure, > all I have to do is diagnose it and get someone else to fix it, > generally. Nothing wrong here at all. > > Others are specialists in hardware repair and would not know a Group > Policy from an XML schema. That's fine, too. > > You seem to be judging tools by your own use for them, and people by > the tools they use. That is unwise. > > > Anyways, do what you like, so as I do. > > I usually do. :?) > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 15:06:07 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 13:06:07 -0700 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>, <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de>, Message-ID: <4FCF55BF.17189.10489D0@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2012 at 19:57, Liam Proven wrote: > So can I. Sometimes, it is quicker and easier to use a socnet. It is > easier for me to pick, say, the London-based people out of my ~800 > friends on Facebook than to choose their email addresses from the > ~5000 people in my address book. Well, I differentiate between "friends" and "acquaintances". An acquaintance is someone you've met and occasionally chat with. A friend is someone who will bail you out of jail in the middle of the night, take you in when you're stranded, or attend your funeral. Very different animals in my opinion. Simply calling someone a friend doesn't make him/her one. --Chuck From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Jun 6 15:06:54 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 22:06:54 +0200 Subject: Mystery Panel In-Reply-To: <201206060552.q565qbZF047882@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4FCE756B.4000107@update.uu.se> <201206060552.q565qbZF047882@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4FCFB85E.3060800@update.uu.se> On 06/06/2012 07:52 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > > I don't think so. It's very crude. Just a hunch, but you are probably right. > > You can see words like EAST VEST. Maybe in a Nordic language, I figured > you would know! Not likely. West is Vest in danish and norwegian, but east is ?st and I don't know what NOST and LAST would be. /P From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 15:10:48 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 22:10:48 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Of my 858/859 CPU's, some are CP7R and some are CP7RA. I don't know >> what the difference between these two is. The difference between the >> 858 and the 859 is whether a front panel with lamps and toggle >> switches is fitted (858) or a front panel with fluorescent hexadecimal >> displays and pushbuttons (859). > > In the P854, there are 2 RS232 serial ports on the CPU boards. I think > they use 8251 USARTs, and are controleld by the processor microcode. One > is used for the console terminal, the other commnicates with the > frontpanel, which is a keypad thing wit ha pair of VF displays. There's a > microcontrolelr (an 8748 I think) on the frontpanel board. > > Is the P859 like this? Does the P858 lights-and-swithces panel > communicate over an serial link. If so, I'd love to know more.... Yes. It's a serial link, and the protocol is the same between the FRCP (854 and 859, pushbutton/fluorescent) and ERCP (858, lights-and-switches, looks identical to the panel on the P856). > Do you ahve nay docuemtnaion which includes eitehr the source code for > the panel micrcontrolelr firmware or the communications protocol? The firmware is not included as far as I can tell, but the communications protocol is described as follows: 4800 baud, 1 start bit, 8 data bits, 2 stop bits (no parity) Address: Bx Bx Bx Bx Bx Bx (where x x x x x x are the 6 hex characters of the address) Register address: 3x Data: 3x 3x 3x 3x Switches: MCL: 40 LR: 41 RR: 42 RST: 43 IPL: 44 LM(1): 45 LM(2): 55 INT: 46 RM(1): 47 RM(2): 57 LA:48 INST: 49 RPA: 4A RUN: 4B PACC: 4C PWR: 4D POFF: 4F TEST: 4E master-to-panel functions: RUNZ0 (Run -> Idle): 40 RUNZ1 (Idle -> Run): 41 TEST: 42 This is from the P858, P859 reference manual. Cheers, Camiel From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 6 15:35:51 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 13:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCF38AB.6489.92F036@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <4FCF1573.30855.95EED@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120606095443.S71164@shell.lmi.net> <4FCF38AB.6489.92F036@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120606132547.V71164@shell.lmi.net> > > Wasn't there a camera (Canon?) that used them? Or was that a > > DIFFERENT 2.5"? - there were several competing 2.5" (and a 2.9" > > spiral) technologies being shown around that time. On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, we still have hard-disk Microdrives (e.g. IBM, Seagate, Qrisma) > that fall into that category, even if they're sealed units. I was just referring to the floppies. There were a bucnch of competing ones introduced around the same time. Few survivors. > 3.25" floppies were a particularly bad idea--there's no way they'd > survive long carried in a shirt pocket. The first big battle was, indeed over "shirt pocket". George Morrow suggested cutting a deal with the garment industry to change shirt pocket size! My take is that Dysan "bet the company" in order to avoid retooling for a different kind of jacket. Many "experts" declared that the winner would be the one with the most software available. So, Dysan spent everything to create a whole new software publishing structure, with availability of most of the BIG name software products on 3.25". There was a brief period of time, where, although I couldn't get a machine that came with that drive, I COULD purchase Lotus, Wordstar, WordPervert, Weird, dBase, Supercalc, etc. on 3.25" diskettes! The "experts" were very thoroughly WRONG, and the only machine that reached market that I know of was the Seequa Chameleon 325. > > All media in that size range should have a hole through it (center or > > corner) to string them together on a key-ring. > MicroSD is indeed too smalL in my experience. I have a jar sitting on > my desk here that holds SD and MicroSD (and MMC) chips. Otherwise, > I'd lose them in a drawer. > As far as hanging off a keyring, I've long thought that was a bad > idea, if you actually have keys on the same ring, as well as coins in > the same pocket. Good point. I'll resume my search for an ideal pocket jar. > But even for an old guy, I'm pretty active. Office-chair pilots and > couch potatoes may get better mileage from their pocket memory > devices. SO, give me those media with a hole! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 6 15:55:38 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 13:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <4FCF55BF.17189.10489D0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>, <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de>, <4FCF55BF.17189.10489D0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120606135333.G71164@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A friend is someone who will bail you out of jail in the middle of > the night, take you in when you're stranded, or attend your funeral. "A friend will help you move" For US, that's BIG. "A REAL friend will help you move a body." From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 15:58:22 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 13:58:22 -0700 Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20120606132547.V71164@shell.lmi.net> References: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <4FCF38AB.6489.92F036@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120606132547.V71164@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FCF61FE.27341.1345F9A@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2012 at 13:35, Fred Cisin wrote: > The first big battle was, indeed over "shirt pocket". George Morrow > suggested cutting a deal with the garment industry to change shirt > pocket size! Not as silly as it sounds. My newest jacket (the type with a zipper on it that you wear to keep warm and dry) has a cellphone/iPod pocket on the sleeve. 3.5" floppies fit it nicely. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 16:53:24 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:53:24 -0500 Subject: Mystery Panel In-Reply-To: <4FCFB85E.3060800@update.uu.se> References: <4FCE756B.4000107@update.uu.se> <201206060552.q565qbZF047882@billy.ezwind.net> <4FCFB85E.3060800@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Pontus wrote: > Not likely. West is Vest in danish and norwegian, but east is ?st and I > don't know what NOST and LAST would be. All I know is #29 is the one that lights when your burrito is ready :) -- jht From microcode at zoho.com Wed Jun 6 17:23:17 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 22:23:17 +0000 Subject: Mystery Panel In-Reply-To: <4FCFB85E.3060800@update.uu.se> References: <4FCE756B.4000107@update.uu.se> <201206060552.q565qbZF047882@billy.ezwind.net> <4FCFB85E.3060800@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201206062223.q56MNNEr070709@billy.ezwind.net> On Wed, 06 Jun 2012 22:06:54 +0200 Pontus wrote: > On 06/06/2012 07:52 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote: > > You can see words like EAST VEST. Maybe in a Nordic language, I figured > > you would know! > > Not likely. West is Vest in danish and norwegian, but east is ?st and I > don't know what NOST and LAST would be. I would guess North for NOST and, given we already have EAST and VEST and NOST I would bet even money LAST is SOUTH. But I may be VIST about HAPT. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jun 6 17:59:14 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 15:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 10:37 PM PDT David Griffith wrote: > > >On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > >> On 5 Jun 2012 at 18:17, David Ryskalczyk wrote: > >> > >> I'm looking for other unusual floppy drives, but even these Kodaks are > >> hard enough to find. > >> > >> I do have a 6.6MB Kodak drive (and media). It looks a lot like the > >> 3.3. > > > >How about some photos and a write-up? They would be nice to add that to > >Wikipedia's articles on floppy disks. > I have 2 count them 2 Zenith minisports with 2.5 inch drives. Now thats > unusual. No disks though. A naked drive might be fun to put up. I've already put an image of a disk on Wikipedia. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jun 6 18:10:10 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20120606095443.S71164@shell.lmi.net> References: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FCF1573.30855.95EED@cclist.sydex.com> <20120606095443.S71164@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On 6 Jun 2012 at 6:48, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> I have 2 count them 2 Zenith minisports with 2.5 inch drives. Now >>> thats unusual. No disks though. ------------------------------ > On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Yup, I've seen them. AFAIK, the Minisport was the only widely- >> available system to use them, unless there was an early digicam. No >> radical advance in technology, just a different physical size. > > Wasn't there a camera (Canon?) that used them? Or was that a DIFFERENT > 2.5"? - there were several competing 2.5" (and a 2.9" spiral) technologies > being shown around that time. The Canon Xapshot took a VFD or Video Floppy Disk. The disk measured roughly 2.5" and stored analogue still images. This was fairly rare, but was much more common than the LT1 disk that the Zenith Minisport took. There was another 2.5"-ish disk called the QuickDisk which had a single track in a spiral. This was most commonly found in word processors, musical equipment, and the Japanese version of the NES. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 6 18:59:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 19:59:30 -0400 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com> On 06/06/2012 10:50 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hmm, it seems, that I don't even need something like IRC.. > I do have a phone flaterate, it is much less hassle to call the person on > the phone... Holm, my friend, this is one area in which you and I must disagree. I hate phone calls. So disruptive. Our opinions on social media are very much the same, though. I have a Facebook account, but mainly to find and keep in touch with people who haven't figured out "real email" yet; mainly old childhood friends. Overall, my position is that I'm a busy guy, and I will NEVER have enough free time for Facebook. It's little other than a huge time sink for people who don't have anything better to do. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 19:03:20 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 01:03:20 +0100 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6 June 2012 19:28, MikeS wrote: > ----- Original Message: > Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:08:37 +0100 > From: Liam Proven > >> ...I commonly invite a couple of hundred people at once to events. I >> >> cannot do that by phoning them all; even emailing them all is a major >> pain. This is the sort of thing social networks excel at. > >> You don't have to use them; feel free not to. But my friend who refuse to >> are, by and large, friends who I do not invite to things. > > Considering how little you obviously value those "friendships", they > probably don't mind at all... There are a couple of people - just a handful - who are close enough, or that I have known for long enough, that I will go out of my way to ask them. The rest, the other few dozen, who I'd be happy to go for a drink with but who want me to use 19th century communications to ask them as we head into the middle of the 2nd decade of the 21st, because they can't be bothered to learn - nah, sod 'em. Adapt and survive; fail to adapt, die. > And I suppose even semi-professional writers ignoring rules of grammar is > just another one of those modern "efficiencies"... Hey, anyone can miss a letter! Jeez... > Signs of the times... I am rather offended, TBH. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 19:11:23 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 01:11:23 +0100 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com> References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 7 June 2012 00:59, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 06/06/2012 10:50 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Hmm, it seems, that I don't even need something like IRC.. >> I do have a phone flaterate, it is much less hassle to call the person on >> the phone... > > ?Holm, my friend, this is one area in which you and I must disagree. ?I > hate phone calls. ?So disruptive. Somewhat tend to agree with that myself. I do not tend to use them for social purposes, although in business, it's different. > ?Our opinions on social media are very much the same, though. ?I have a > Facebook account, but mainly to find and keep in touch with people who > haven't figured out "real email" yet; mainly old childhood friends. > Overall, my position is that I'm a busy guy, and I will NEVER have > enough free time for Facebook. ?It's little other than a huge time sink > for people who don't have anything better to do. :-( You know, it is not mandatory, or even useful or helpful, to play with it to use it. I don't put many pictures on it. I seldom update my status - that's what Twitter is for, so I feed it through. I prefer email for contacting people. I don't play any games on it at all and rarely browse it - maybe on 5-10 min session a week, if that. You don't need any of that. But it is becoming the Internet's telephone directory. It is a simple easy way to find people and build a big address book, to contact them if needed, and to use as a birthdays-reminder system and so on. Calling someone for the first time in ages? Quickly look at their page and see what has happened in their life recently. Its events system is also usable and can be syndicated out via standard protocols - I sync mine into my Google Calendar, which is synched into my phone automatically. Much easier than setting up and running my own Exchange Server, which I am perfectly capable of doing but see no reason to. You don't have to live on the damned thing to make use of it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 6 19:12:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 20:12:38 -0400 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCFF1F6.5060100@neurotica.com> On 06/06/2012 08:03 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > There are a couple of people - just a handful - who are close enough, > or that I have known for long enough, that I will go out of my way to > ask them. The rest, the other few dozen, who I'd be happy to go for a > drink with but who want me to use 19th century communications to ask > them as we head into the middle of the 2nd decade of the 21st, because > they can't be bothered to learn - nah, sod 'em. Adapt and survive; > fail to adapt, die. And those of us who aren't Facebook addicts are clearly on the edge of death! ;) >> And I suppose even semi-professional writers ignoring rules of grammar is >> just another one of those modern "efficiencies"... > > Hey, anyone can miss a letter! Jeez... I can see how it might be reasonable to hold someone in your line of work to a slightly higher standard.. >> Signs of the times... > > I am rather offended, TBH. Frequently! ;) (*poke*...about as often as me!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 6 19:22:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 20:22:23 -0400 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FCFF43F.4010906@neurotica.com> On 06/06/2012 08:11 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Our opinions on social media are very much the same, though. I have a >> Facebook account, but mainly to find and keep in touch with people who >> haven't figured out "real email" yet; mainly old childhood friends. >> Overall, my position is that I'm a busy guy, and I will NEVER have >> enough free time for Facebook. It's little other than a huge time sink >> for people who don't have anything better to do. :-( > > You know, it is not mandatory, or even useful or helpful, to play with > it to use it. I agree 100%. > I don't put many pictures on it. I seldom update my status - that's > what Twitter is for, so I feed it through. I prefer email for > contacting people. I don't play any games on it at all and rarely > browse it - maybe on 5-10 min session a week, if that. > > You don't need any of that. I'm on Facebook for 5-10mins every two weeks or so. > But it is becoming the Internet's telephone directory. It is a simple > easy way to find people and build a big address book, to contact them > if needed, and to use as a birthdays-reminder system and so on. > Calling someone for the first time in ages? Quickly look at their page > and see what has happened in their life recently. Yes, I agree...but.. > Its events system is also usable and can be syndicated out via > standard protocols - I sync mine into my Google Calendar, which is > synched into my phone automatically. Much easier than setting up and > running my own Exchange Server, which I am perfectly capable of doing > but see no reason to. > > You don't have to live on the damned thing to make use of it. ...this is where I have a problem. Nearly everyone I know uses Facebook. Of them, I can count maybe two or three who DON'T "live on the damned thing". It's built to become addictive to people who don't have anything better to do, and let's face it...most people (excluding people like us) DON'T have anything better to do. Using it periodically for the reasons you state isn't the problem. People living and breathing the stupid thing is where it becomes a problem. Marriages are ending, jobs are being lost, etc etc all because people just can't wait to rush to the nearest computer and "check in real quick" on Facebook...where they sit for the rest of the night. That's the part I have a problem with. Not the usage pattern you describe. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 19:52:01 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 01:52:01 +0100 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <4FCFF43F.4010906@neurotica.com> References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com> <4FCFF43F.4010906@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 7 June 2012 01:22, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?...this is where I have a problem. ?Nearly everyone I know uses > Facebook. ?Of them, I can count maybe two or three who DON'T "live on > the damned thing". ?It's built to become addictive to people who don't > have anything better to do, and let's face it...most people (excluding > people like us) DON'T have anything better to do. > > ?Using it periodically for the reasons you state isn't the problem. > People living and breathing the stupid thing is where it becomes a > problem. ?Marriages are ending, jobs are being lost, etc etc all because > people just can't wait to rush to the nearest computer and "check in > real quick" on Facebook...where they sit for the rest of the night. > > ?That's the part I have a problem with. ?Not the usage pattern you > describe. Ah, well, in that case, I entirely agree. And with your previous one about frequently getting offended. ;?) I can lose hours to Twitter, though - but I have a fairly carefully-selected list of people that I follow, ones who post interesting links to interesting stuff, don't use it as a medium to natter and don't post about what they had for lunch or what their cat is up to. But the good thing about Twitter is that it works well without much engagement. I can give it 2min a day or 2 hours, or none at all, and it's fine. You don't "miss out" and rarely will anyone criticise you for "not taking part" or anything. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 20:18:34 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 21:18:34 -0400 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com> References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com> <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <05685FE0-DB2D-44E3-B145-32B6EB1DBFBE@gmail.com> On Jun 6, 2012, at 7:59 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 06/06/2012 10:50 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Hmm, it seems, that I don't even need something like IRC.. >> I do have a phone flaterate, it is much less hassle to call the person on >> the phone... > > Holm, my friend, this is one area in which you and I must disagree. I > hate phone calls. So disruptive. I can't stand them myself. > Our opinions on social media are very much the same, though. I have a > Facebook account, but mainly to find and keep in touch with people who > haven't figured out "real email" yet; mainly old childhood friends. > Overall, my position is that I'm a busy guy, and I will NEVER have > enough free time for Facebook. It's little other than a huge time sink > for people who don't have anything better to do. :-( There are other legitimate uses. For example, it's by far the easiest way I have of sharing pictures of our 9-month-old daughter with family and friends, and that's something I find valuable. It's also a very handy way of organizing social events between myself and my friends, but I'm willing to concede that point as a generational thing; I am, after all, roughly a generation younger than most people involved in this conversation. Facebook came out right in the middle of my college years, so it became the de facto method of communication between those of us who wanted to stay in touch. But yeah, it can be a huge time sink if I'm not careful, especially because I have the attention span of a goldfish. There's a useful utility for OS X (with spinoffs for several other OSes) which lets you block certain sites which may prove to be a distraction for a certain amount of time, with no option to turn it off, called "Self Control". It just manipulates the firewall to redirect said sites to localhost, so if you're clever, you can work around it, but it does break the instinctual "gotta check Facebook every five minutes" habit quite well. It's a case of locks keeping honest men honest. :-) - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 21:42:27 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 19:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which word procs used 2.5s David was Re: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives Message-ID: <1339036947.89547.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> name them please. We need a thorough discussion of w/p's anyway. The Canon VP-3000 is 8088 based in the event you werent aware. Used 5 1/4s though. ------------------------------ On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 4:10 PM PDT David Griffith wrote: >On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On 6 Jun 2012 at 6:48, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> I have 2 count them 2 Zenith minisports with 2.5 inch drives. Now >>> thats unusual. No disks though. ------------------------------ >> On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Yup, I've seen them. AFAIK, the Minisport was the only widely- >> available system to use them, unless there was an early digicam. No >> radical advance in technology, just a different physical size. >> >> Wasn't there a camera (Canon?) that used them? Or was that a DIFFERENT >> 2.5"? - there were several competing 2.5" (and a 2.9" spiral) technologies >> being shown around that time. > >The Canon Xapshot took a VFD or Video Floppy Disk. The disk measured roughly 2.5" and stored analogue still images. This was fairly rare, but was much more common than the LT1 disk that the Zenith Minisport took. There was another 2.5"-ish disk called the QuickDisk which had a single track in a spiral. This was most commonly found in word processors, musical equipment, and the Japanese version of the NES. > > >-- David Griffith >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > >A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 22:43:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 20:43:47 -0700 Subject: which word procs used 2.5s David was Re: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <1339036947.89547.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339036947.89547.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FCFC103.754.2A78B51@cclist.sydex.com> You can't even begin to have a complete discussion of wapros. They were as common as cockroaches and folks don't collect them. Even Brian Kunde's list doesn't come close. And then there's the question of what counts as a aapro? Is the IBM MT/ST one? How about the IBM mag card typewriters? The first I saw was made by Artec--it used a Diablo 630-type terminal with a custom one -line LED (LCD?) mounted on the Hitype. It used a floor-mounted box with 2 8" floppy drives. CPT had one out at about the same time that used a page-mode sort of terminal display. I think the AES wapro predates microprocessors. Even Exxon got into the wapro ractket by purchasing Vydec--they lost a pile of money on that venture. --Chuck On 6 Jun 2012 at 19:42, Chris Tofu wrote: > > name them please. We need a thorough discussion of w/p's anyway. The > Canon VP-3000 is 8088 based in the event you werent aware. Used 5 1/4s > though. ------------------------------ > On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 4:10 PM PDT David Griffith wrote: > > >On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > >> On 6 Jun 2012 at 6:48, Chris Tofu wrote: > >>> I have 2 count them 2 Zenith minisports with 2.5 inch drives. Now > >>> thats unusual. No disks though. ------------------------------ >> > On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Yup, I've seen them. AFAIK, > the Minisport was the only widely- >> available system to use them, > unless there was an early digicam. No >> radical advance in > technology, just a different physical size. >> >> Wasn't there a > camera (Canon?) that used them? Or was that a DIFFERENT >> 2.5"? - > there were several competing 2.5" (and a 2.9" spiral) technologies >> > being shown around that time. > >The Canon Xapshot took a VFD or > Video Floppy Disk. The disk measured roughly 2.5" and stored analogue > still images. This was fairly rare, but was much more common than the > LT1 disk that the Zenith Minisport took. There was another 2.5"-ish > disk called the QuickDisk which had a single track in a spiral. This > was most commonly found in word processors, musical equipment, and > the Japanese version of the NES. > > >-- David Griffith > >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > >A: Because it fouls the order in which > people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 16:56:20 2012 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 17:56:20 -0400 Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury Message-ID: It was with great sadness I felt on hearing the news of the death of Ray Bradbury. His science fiction literature, that of computer in nature, gave me my earliest knowledge concerning computers and the potential they had. He will truly be missed. Murray--- From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jun 7 11:28:12 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 09:28:12 -0700 Subject: Tek Magnolia (Was: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles) Message-ID: > > ranging from the amazing Magnolia Smalltalk Workstation from 1976-ish, > > Really? That date is extremely hard to believe. > > Adele Goldberg wrote in "The Smalltalk-80 System Release Process" (in > _Smalltalk-80: Bits of History, Words of Advice_, June 1983) that the first > release of Smalltalk to licensees (Apple, DEC, HP, and Tektronix) did not occur > until February 17, 1981, with updated releases on July 24, > 1981 and November 18, 1981. "Implementing the Smalltalk-80 System: The > Tektronix Experience" by Paul L. McCullough, copyright 1982 and printed in > the same book, describes the initial bringup at Tektronix. It doesn't give a > date for the start of the effort, but after describing the initial bringup, states > "About this time, we received the second virtual image from Xerox Palo Alto > Research Center (PARC)." This suggests that they received the first and > second images at times consistent with the release dates in the Goldberg > paper. > > Didn't Magnolia use the Motorola MC68000 microprocessor? Motorola didn't > announce that until September 1979, and while it's certainly possible that > Motorola provided Tektronix with preliminary data on it prior to that, > Motorola didn't have working silicon until late 1979. > > Allen Wirfs-Brock's resume describes how he was involved in the Tektronix > review of the draft Smalltalk-80 books in 1980-1981, and that review occurred > before Xerox released the image. I think that my memory has failed me. I think it was more like sometime in the early 1980's, now that I think more about it. Magnolia used a 68000 CPU (two of them, I think...because I believe it supported demand paging, which the 68000 didn't support directly), which didn't exist in '76. Smalltalk existed, but the Smalltalk-76 release would have been a major pain to port to the 68000. Also, the machine used a Micropolis 8" hard disk (1200-series) that didn't come around until sometime in mid-'78 or so. So, though my memory tells me that I saw this machine running in a lab before I went to work at Tektronix in June of '77, my mind has to be suffering from wetware bitrot - something I'm becoming more and more familiar with as the years go by :-( In any case, the sad part is that it appears at least from a historical standpoint that a lot of information about Magnolia (along with other Tektronix forays into computer systems) are being lost to time. Rick Bensene From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jun 7 11:34:41 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 10:34:41 -0600 Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Murray McCullough writes: > It was with great sadness I felt on hearing the news of the death of > Ray Bradbury. [...] Apparently he was quite the luddite, eschewing computers, email and the internet for a long, long time. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jun 7 11:43:24 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 10:43:24 -0600 Subject: Tek Magnolia (Was: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Rick Bensene" writes: > In any case, the sad part is that it appears at least from a historical > standpoint that a lot of information about Magnolia (along with other > Tektronix forays into computer systems) are being lost to time. I've been keeping an eye out for those Tektronix Smalltalk workstations and in all the time (10+ years, I think at this point) I've been looking, I haven't seen a single one come up in any of the usual channels. I get the impression that they just weren't sold in any significant quantity. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 7 11:54:04 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 09:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120607095310.Y12911@shell.lmi.net> > > It was with great sadness I felt on hearing the news of the death of > > Ray Bradbury. [...] On Thu, 7 Jun 2012, Richard wrote: > Apparently he was quite the luddite, eschewing computers, email and > the internet for a long, long time. What do his Twitter and Facebook pages say? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 7 12:24:06 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 10:24:06 -0700 Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com> Did Bradbury ever refer to himself as a "science fiction writer"? Although he wrote stories set in futuristic (or alternate reality) places, I was under the impression that such stuff was mostly the backdrop for his storytelling. One of his short stories that's a favorite of mine isn't SF (and perhaps not fiction at all) --"The First Night of Lent". --Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Jun 7 12:53:38 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 13:53:38 -0400 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication References: Message-ID: <8D35D5F28A7143C7BAFD356F889EB3DE@vl420mt> Original Message: Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 01:03:20 +0100 From: Liam Proven > I am rather offended, TBH. By what? My comment on your definition of and attitude towards your 'friends', i.e. if they won't do it your way "then sod 'em"? Or my comment that a professional writer should know the difference between who and whom? No offence intended, just commenting on examples of two all-too-prevalent current trends; just add winking smilies... From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 7 13:19:42 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 14:19:42 -0400 Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury In-Reply-To: <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com> Bradbury was more of a Futurist imho. He truly saw what things would be like and put them into realworld context and perspective. Chuck Guzis wrote: > Did Bradbury ever refer to himself as a "science fiction writer"? > Although he wrote stories set in futuristic (or alternate reality) > places, I was under the impression that such stuff was mostly the > backdrop for his storytelling. > > One of his short stories that's a favorite of mine isn't SF (and > perhaps not fiction at all) --"The First Night of Lent". > > --Chuck > > > > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jun 7 13:29:39 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 12:29:39 -0600 Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury In-Reply-To: <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com> References: , <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com> <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <4FD0F0BE.80303 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > Bradbury was more of a Futurist imho. ....not really sure how you can simultaneously be a futurist and a luddite. Bradbury wouldn't even let electronic editions of his books be published until the past couple of years or so, according to reports. Every futurist I know (and I know plenty from scifi/nanotech circles) is a relatively quick, if not early, adopter of new technologies. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 13:40:47 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 11:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury Message-ID: <1339094447.82307.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> >From the earliest writers, Verne, A.C. Doyle, etc. sf was all about futurism. They attempted to predict what the future would be like. Primarily. Some stories were set in the present. The combination became the genre as we know it today. Keep in mind a fair amount of scifi became scifact. ------------------------------ On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 11:19 AM PDT Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >Bradbury was more of a Futurist imho. He truly saw what things would be like and put them into realworld context and perspective. > > > > > > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Did Bradbury ever refer to himself as a "science fiction writer"? Although he wrote stories set in futuristic (or alternate reality) places, I was under the impression that such stuff was mostly the backdrop for his storytelling. >> One of his short stories that's a favorite of mine isn't SF (and perhaps not fiction at all) --"The First Night of Lent". >> >> --Chuck >> >> >> >> From useddec at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 14:11:52 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 14:11:52 -0500 Subject: VT14, other PDP14 options available Message-ID: I have a complete VT14 (except for possibly the cover screws) 14/30, 14/35, and a lot of options available for serious inquires. It was going to be a project down the road, but I need to shorten my list due to health issues, Does any else out there have one, or even know of one? Please feel free to contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 14:14:14 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 15:14:14 -0400 Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury In-Reply-To: References: , <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com> <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4FD0FD86.7000202@gmail.com> Richard wrote: >> Bradbury was more of a Futurist imho. > > ....not really sure how you can simultaneously be a futurist and a luddite. It's actually very easy. You just need two things. You should be able to predict where society is going, and you need to not *like* where society is going. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 7 13:46:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 19:46:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <20120606195932.GA76506@beast.freibergnet.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Jun 6, 12 09:59:32 pm Message-ID: > > Liam Proven wrote: > > > On 6 June 2012 18:41, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Hehe, it seems you have problems I don't have and that I don't want. > >=20 > > What problems? > > You want to contact hundreds of people, this is a technical problem, that= > I > simply not have. > >=20 > > > If you need to invite hundrets of people to eveents, please do that l= > ike > > > you want, I just don't need to do that. > >=20 > > Well, if you don't have many friends or never throw big parties, I am > > a little sorry for you. Personally, I am gregarious and have lots of > > friends. :=AC) > > I prefer to have really a smaller amount of "real" friends. As do I. I don;t know how long said parties last, but let's be generous and say 6 hours. That's 360 minutes. If you invited 360 people (that's 'hundreds') you;d only soend, on avverage, 1 minute with each of them. That doesn't sound very friendly to me. Persoanlly I'd rather attend smaller gatherings where I get to spend enoguh time with those present to have a reasonable discussion about somehting of mutual interest. Even then I often feel I've not spent long enough with each person. [Socnets] > > Not at all. It's a tool, nothing more. If you don't want to use it, > > fine, but it makes you look foolish if you criticise others for no > > other reason than that they do use it, or because you don't know how > > to. > > Maybe that's the language difference (We could always try to write in > german, I never had english in a school), I don't want/wanted to critici= > se > you or others for using Socnets, this was never my intention. > > I'm not using them and I never missed something like that. > That is just my point of view, but no criticism. I agree with you. I woudl agree that sconets are a tool, and like all tools they're only useful if you can use them to solve a problem (or perform some task). If you don't have that problem, you don't use them. I don't have problems that are solved by Facebook, so I don't have a Facebook account. Liam, I wouldn't be suprised if you didn't recognist some of the (physical) tools in my toolkit. That's fine, you have no use for a dividing head, a mainspring winder, a wire-wrap tool, a valve tester, a spinrg tension gauge or anything like that. That's fine, you do differnt things to me. But equally, i don't have to want to use the tools (in the general sense) that you do. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 7 13:55:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 19:55:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives In-Reply-To: <4FCF61FE.27341.1345F9A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 6, 12 01:58:22 pm Message-ID: > Not as silly as it sounds. My newest jacket (the type with a zipper > on it that you wear to keep warm and dry) has a cellphone/iPod pocket > on the sleeve. 3.5" floppies fit it nicely. My raincoat has a pocket that the ideal size for 3.5" disks, another one for 5.25" disks and a pair for 8" disks ;-) Alas no pocket large enough for RK05 packs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 7 13:58:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 19:58:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 6, 12 07:59:30 pm Message-ID: > Holm, my friend, this is one area in which you and I must disagree. I > hate phone calls. So disruptive. Am I the only person here who sometimes totally ignores a ringing telephone if I am doing somethign that I don't want to interrupt? I refuse to handle technical questions by telephone. I want to be able to take the time to get out the manuals, look things up, etc. That means e-mail. -tony From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Jun 7 15:07:00 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 22:07:00 +0200 Subject: VT14, other PDP14 options available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FD109E4.1020407@update.uu.se> On 06/07/2012 09:11 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have a complete VT14 (except for possibly the cover screws) 14/30, > 14/35, and a lot of options available for serious inquires. It was > going to be a project down the road, but I need to shorten my list due > to health issues, > > Does any else out there have one, or even know of one? > > Please feel free to contact me off list. > > Thanks, Paul I would very much like to see some pictures. Never seen one. /P From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 7 15:07:57 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 16:07:57 -0400 Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury In-Reply-To: <4FD0FD86.7000202@gmail.com> References: , <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com> <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com> <4FD0FD86.7000202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FD10A1D.8080609@atarimuseum.com> {two thumbs up} on comment :-) Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Richard wrote: >>> Bradbury was more of a Futurist imho. >> >> ....not really sure how you can simultaneously be a futurist and a >> luddite. > > It's actually very easy. You just need two things. You should be > able to predict where society is going, and you need to not *like* > where society is going. > > Peace... Sridhar > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 7 15:11:27 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 13:11:27 -0700 Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury In-Reply-To: <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com> References: , <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4FD0A87F.7136.10AE11B@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jun 2012 at 14:19, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Bradbury was more of a Futurist imho. He truly saw what things > would be like and put them into realworld context and perspective. Sort of--but a fair number of his stories weren't set in the future at all. For me, the attraction of Bradbury is his way with words--almost poetic in the way he crafted them. That's probably one of the reasons that his stories set for film didn't particularly work all that well. For someone who used a typewriter for his writing, didn't drive and refused to fly, he wasn't much of a futurist in real life. I don't imagine that he ever owned a mobile phone, either. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 16:31:47 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 14:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone need an oscillscope? Message-ID: <1339104707.27925.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Tektronix 5440 + 2 additional plugins. 60mhz I think. Analog. More info upon request. No probe. 50$. NJ 07731. I use USPS. God bless the US postal service! From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 7 16:36:13 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 17:36:13 -0400 Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury In-Reply-To: <4FD0A87F.7136.10AE11B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com> <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com> <4FD0A87F.7136.10AE11B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <05D361C7-4476-4FD0-AA96-1D3AF7662B2C@atarimuseum.com> HG Wells didn't own any of that stuff either, yet his stories were quite prophetic Sent from my iPhone On Jun 7, 2012, at 4:11 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 7 Jun 2012 at 14:19, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Bradbury was more of a Futurist imho. He truly saw what things >> would be like and put them into realworld context and perspective. > > Sort of--but a fair number of his stories weren't set in the future > at all. > > For me, the attraction of Bradbury is his way with words--almost > poetic in the way he crafted them. That's probably one of the > reasons that his stories set for film didn't particularly work all > that well. > > For someone who used a typewriter for his writing, didn't drive and > refused to fly, he wasn't much of a futurist in real life. I don't > imagine that he ever owned a mobile phone, either. > > --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Jun 7 17:01:07 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 10:01:07 +1200 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I don't know if anyone on this list watches Futurama but there was an amusing episode poking fun at the iphone and social media. It covered themes such as brand brain-washing, twitter and "followers" as a measure of popularity, and the very transient nature of internet popularity itself. Here is a short clip from it. It's worth watching the whole episode if it ever comes your way. http://youtu.be/EaHUpWuqNHY One of the most amusing scenes for me was on people trudging "zombie like" in a long queue towards the shop selling these "eyephones". It may have been deliberate or just coincidental, but it conjured up the image of the IBM zombies trudging to their benches in the famous IBM vrs Mac ad of 1984. Oh, the irony! (-: Terry (Tez) On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 6:58 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Holm, my friend, this is one area in which you and I must disagree. I > > hate phone calls. So disruptive. > > Am I the only person here who sometimes totally ignores a ringing > telephone if I am doing somethign that I don't want to interrupt? > > I refuse to handle technical questions by telephone. I want to be able to > take the time to get out the manuals, look things up, etc. That means > e-mail. > > -tony > > From andrew at futurestack.com Thu Jun 7 17:19:38 2012 From: andrew at futurestack.com (futurestack) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 18:19:38 -0400 Subject: anyone need an oscillscope? In-Reply-To: <1339104707.27925.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339104707.27925.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2936D766-1C99-4AB6-842D-61AF13D73467@futurestack.com> I'll take it... I'm in Brooklyn. How do you want to set up payment? Regards, Andrew futurestack | technocrat andrew (@) futurestack (dot) com 9176478173 On Jun 7, 2012, at 5:31 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Tektronix 5440 + 2 additional plugins. 60mhz I think. Analog. More info upon request. No probe. 50$. NJ 07731. I use USPS. God bless the US postal service! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 7 17:49:03 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 18:49:03 -0400 Subject: anyone need an oscillscope? In-Reply-To: <1339104707.27925.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339104707.27925.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FD12FDF.2080402@neurotica.com> On 06/07/2012 05:31 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Tektronix 5440 + 2 additional plugins. 60mhz I think. Analog. More > info upon request. No probe. 50$. NJ 07731. I use USPS. A nice, solid, flexible scope. I see you already have a taker. > God bless the US postal service! Oh good heavens WHY? They're only still in business due to gov't subsidy. There's got to be a story behind this comment. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 7 17:54:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 18:54:06 -0400 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FD1310E.1060603@neurotica.com> On 06/07/2012 02:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I prefer to have really a smaller amount of "real" friends. > > As do I. > > I don;t know how long said parties last, but let's be generous and say 6 > hours. That's 360 minutes. If you invited 360 people (that's 'hundreds') > you;d only soend, on avverage, 1 minute with each of them. That doesn't > sound very friendly to me. > > Persoanlly I'd rather attend smaller gatherings where I get to spend > enoguh time with those present to have a reasonable discussion about > somehting of mutual interest. Even then I often feel I've not spent long > enough with each person. This is great...a nerdly analysis of party socialization statistics! Now I've seen it all. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 7 18:39:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 16:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120607163816.V26272@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Jun 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: > been deliberate or just coincidental, but it conjured up the image of the > IBM zombies trudging to their benches in the famous IBM vrs Mac ad of > 1984. Oh, the irony! (-: In a different episode, Futurama explicitly addressed that ad - "HEY, We were watching that!" From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 19:02:59 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 17:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone need an oscillscope? Message-ID: <1339113779.68583.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> uh I might be having issues with it. I may have more opportunity to investigate over the weekend. Maybe Im doing something wrong. The voltage display in the upper left corner disappeared, as did the trace. Sorry. Stay tuned From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 20:04:39 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 02:04:39 +0100 Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication In-Reply-To: References: <20120606195932.GA76506@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 7 June 2012 19:46, Tony Duell wrote: > > I don;t know how long said parties last, but let's be generous and say 6 > hours. That's 360 minutes. If you invited 360 people (that's 'hundreds') > you;d only soend, on avverage, 1 minute with each of them. That doesn't > sound very friendly to me. No no - it doesn't work like that. Many people are on FB but seldom check it. Some don't know how to do more than post on the wall. Many will not accept the invitation; many will not notice it. If I issue, say, 200 invitations, maybe, optimistically, a third will accept. Of those, perhaps 75% - again, very optimistically - will mean it. Of which maybe a half will come. Inviting 200-odd people means one actually gets 30 or 40. That's a good big lively group, but not vast. If 3 or 4 people group around a table each, say, that's only a dozen or so tables, meaning 20-30 min per table over a night - long enough for a decent natter and a drink. I've only organised such big "dos" a few times but it seemed to work. A party if they all turned up would indeed be very unmanageable, yes! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From evan at snarc.net Thu Jun 7 23:10:33 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 00:10:33 -0400 Subject: Felsenstein lecture in NJ - July 1 Message-ID: <4FD17B39.6040108@snarc.net> Everyone, Lee Felsenstein is giving a talk, signing autographs, etc. at the InfoAge Science Center (2201 Marconi Rd., Wall, NJ, 07719) on Sunday, July 1. at approx. 10:30am. Unfortunately he couldn't be here for VCF East 8.0 last month. But this is the next best thing! Lee is very friendly and looks forward to meeting many of his fans. I assume all cctalk'ers know who Lee is ... but just in case .... Lee is famous for his work at the Homebrew Computer Club, Community Memory, Processor Technology, and of course Osborne. He was even part of Berkeley's Free Speech Movement. There's a $10 "strongly suggested" donation per person for our museum. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Jun 8 00:28:25 2012 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 22:28:25 -0700 Subject: Tek Magnolia (Was: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > ? ?"Rick Bensene" writes: > >> In any case, the sad part is that it appears at least from a historical >> standpoint that a lot of information about Magnolia (along with other >> Tektronix forays into computer systems) are being lost to time. > I had a Magnolia go through my hands in the early 1990s but it was missing its skins so it went to scrap. In that lot from Intel we got an Alto, a Magnolia and several, about 8 original Xerox Stars (Xerox 8010s). Unfortunately I didn't know what the Magnolia and the Alto were at the time so I didn't save them, one of the great regrets of my life. I did get to play with the 8010s...lovely machines. Later, I did get a set of 4404s and a set of the original Tektronix software for them. I am planning on passing the SW onto another collector, Jerry, for imaging as he has a 4404. I have a 4404 and a 4406 to go with the disks....and a bunch of the drive units. I also have a Xerox 1108 AI workstation in storage that I got as part of the collection. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From lafleur at lafleur.us Thu Jun 7 16:17:56 2012 From: lafleur at lafleur.us (Tom Lafleur) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 14:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S-100 board PCBs remaining In-Reply-To: <001f01cd36b2$0cbacde0$263069a0$@YAHOO.COM> References: <001f01cd36b2$0cbacde0$263069a0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: Please put me down for one each: S-100 4MB SRAM board S-100 backplane PCBs S-100 Console IO Board thanks... tom lafleur From ve3auw at mnsi.net Thu Jun 7 21:58:20 2012 From: ve3auw at mnsi.net (Armin Auerswald) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 22:58:20 -0400 Subject: Byte Magazines For Sale References: <201206061702.q56H2nTR062618@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <7A2181207C6848AD8A880EFE72BCD419@your8e1f7ff0d0> ----- Original Message ----- From: "B Degnan" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 13:02 Subject: Byte Magazines For Sale >I set up a page to sell of spare Byte magazine copies. The page has > directions, will ship worldwide. > http://www.degnanco.net/contact_byte.cfm > Bill > vintagecomputer.net - - - - - - - - In my garage sit about 2'3" of BYTE from around 1983 and 2'6" of ELECTRONICS from 1963 - 67, waiting for conversion into BTU and ASH, next winter. Anyone paying postage from SW Ontario, Canada (near Detroit,MI) is welcome to them and I'll pack them for free, too. Armin, ve3auw. From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Jun 8 05:02:22 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 12:02:22 +0200 Subject: defective DEC RZ58-E Message-ID: <20120608100222.GB43258@beast.freibergnet.de> I have here an 1,3Gbyte DEC Drive, 5,35 Inch full heigth. (Seems to have the old CDC WREN Mechanics) It looks, that the drive electronics are toast. It don't spin up the BLDC motor and it blocks the SCSI Bus where the drive is connected. Maybe there is someone out here that has a Drive with an Head Crash and want to sell me the electronics? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From iamcamiel at gmail.com Fri Jun 8 05:12:13 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 12:12:13 +0200 Subject: defective DEC RZ58-E In-Reply-To: <20120608100222.GB43258@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120608100222.GB43258@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 6/8/12, Holm Tiffe wrote: > I have here an 1,3Gbyte DEC Drive, 5,35 Inch full heigth. (Seems to have > the old CDC WREN Mechanics) > It looks, that the drive electronics are toast. It don't spin up > the BLDC motor and it blocks the SCSI Bus where the drive is connected. > > Maybe there is someone out here that has a Drive with an Head Crash and > want to sell me the electronics? Let me check if I do when I get home. If I have one, you're welcome to it. From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Jun 8 05:24:54 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 12:24:54 +0200 Subject: defective DEC RZ58-E In-Reply-To: References: <20120608100222.GB43258@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120608102454.GD43258@beast.freibergnet.de> Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On 6/8/12, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > I have here an 1,3Gbyte DEC Drive, 5,35 Inch full heigth. (Seems to have > > the old CDC WREN Mechanics) > > It looks, that the drive electronics are toast. It don't spin up > > the BLDC motor and it blocks the SCSI Bus where the drive is connected. > > > > Maybe there is someone out here that has a Drive with an Head Crash and > > want to sell me the electronics? > > Let me check if I do when I get home. If I have one, you're welcome to it. Sounds great Camiel :-) There should be a service manual for that drives "EK-RZ58D-SV" anyone seen that or have it? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Jun 8 05:30:32 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 06:30:32 -0400 Subject: Corroded terminal removal? Message-ID: I have two Mac logic boards (an LC and a Quadra 700) which came to me after the PRAM batteries had exploded, leaving a pretty awful mess. The good news is that there doesn't seem to be any permanent trace damage, and none of the surrounding parts were blown away except for a cheap, easily-replaced SMT diode. However, the last bits of the terminals for the battery holders are still in the holes. With careful application of abrasives and solvent, I managed to clean them to shiny metal, but they're resisting desoldering pretty well (they seem to be mostly rust or similar corroded detritus at this point). Anyone have tips on removing corroded battery terminals from a PCB? - Dave From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Jun 8 09:01:22 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 10:01:22 -0400 Subject: Byte Magazines For Sale In-Reply-To: <7A2181207C6848AD8A880EFE72BCD419@your8e1f7ff0d0> References: <201206061702.q56H2nTR062618@billy.ezwind.net> <7A2181207C6848AD8A880EFE72BCD419@your8e1f7ff0d0> Message-ID: <20120608140122.GG7127@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Armin Auerswald [120608 02:14]: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "B Degnan" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 13:02 > Subject: Byte Magazines For Sale > > > >I set up a page to sell of spare Byte magazine copies. The page has > > directions, will ship worldwide. > > http://www.degnanco.net/contact_byte.cfm > > Bill > > vintagecomputer.net > - - - - - - - - > In my garage sit about 2'3" of BYTE from around 1983 > and 2'6" of ELECTRONICS from 1963 - 67, waiting > for conversion into BTU and ASH, next winter. > > Anyone paying postage from SW Ontario, Canada (near > Detroit,MI) is welcome to them and I'll pack them > for free, too. > > Armin, ve3auw. Hi Armin, If you don't get any other takers then I'd like them for the shipping. Sounds like I should get a truck up to your garage and let you just toss anything in that you don't want. :-) Thanks! Todd From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Jun 8 10:06:34 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft cordless telephone Message-ID: <1339167994.96668.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No I don't have one, nor ever owned one (though I was given the base and the original box by the same guy who gave me my color Canon AS-100). What is one worth? Since I didn't have the actual phone, I chucked it. Stupid? It has to be a rare item. Curt Vendel can you either call me or send me your phone number 8047327608 (swap first 2 sets of 3s). Purdy please. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Jun 8 10:10:19 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: early internet telephony devices Message-ID: <1339168219.43850.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have this little box that would let you make calls on the internet, from the mid to later 90s. I think there was a cd, but I can't locate it at the moment. It's an extremely crude device internally, there isn't even a perfboard IIRC, but rather a few discrete components soldered together w/wires. I didn't analyze it, and it's been years since I looked at it, so I'm guessing it's basically just a demodulator. ?Is this interesting? If so please discuss. Incidentally is this worth mondo big bucks on ePay? I see nothing like it. It's an unknown brand. But so am I. And likely you too. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 8 10:32:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 08:32:00 -0700 Subject: Corroded terminal removal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jun 2012 at 6:30, David Riley wrote: > Anyone have tips on removing corroded battery terminals from a > PCB? Given that it's a battery, why not just drill them out? --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Jun 8 10:40:12 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 11:40:12 -0400 Subject: Corroded terminal removal? In-Reply-To: <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5B9382FF-0FE1-471F-A92D-17A3DEC967E3@gmail.com> On Jun 8, 2012, at 11:32 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Jun 2012 at 6:30, David Riley wrote: > > >> Anyone have tips on removing corroded battery terminals from a >> PCB? > > Given that it's a battery, why not just drill them out? The big problem is that the ground terminal connects to an internal plane, not a surface trace. I'd be worried about removing the hole plating with the drill. I suppose, since it's going to ground, it would be easy enough to white-wire to another known ground point, but I'd like to avoid that approach if possible. Still, it should work if all else fails. - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Jun 8 10:47:47 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what would cause a 5 1/4" drive to choke on a standard disk? Message-ID: <1339170467.92898.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I asked this in the past. You attempt to format a disk, and it grinds. Why? From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Fri Jun 8 08:44:25 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 14:44:25 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: defective DEC RZ58-E Message-ID: <01OGG2XK0EUA000KH9@beyondthepale.ie> > >I have here an 1,3Gbyte DEC Drive, 5,35 Inch full heigth. (Seems to have >the old CDC WREN Mechanics) >It looks, that the drive electronics are toast. It don't spin up >the BLDC motor and it blocks the SCSI Bus where the drive is connected. > I had similar problems with two RZ55 drives in VAX2000 size boxes. They blinked the activity LED several times at power on but didn't spin up. I thought the were counting out a fault code. The bus issue turned out to be a bad cable and the reason they didn't spin up was because they weren't supposed to spin up until commanded to by the host. (Just before trying them, I'd tried a different disk that is supposed to spin up at power up but didn't due to a power supply failure so I was in the wrong frame of mind for disks that don't spin up automatically. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Fri Jun 8 09:42:36 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 15:42:36 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Corroded terminal removal? Message-ID: <01OGG5ABEJDU000KH9@beyondthepale.ie> > >Anyone have tips on removing corroded battery terminals from a >PCB? > If there is enough of it left, file or drill the existing solder to expose shiney clean areas. Then apply new solder to it. Hopefully the whole lot will then melt together and can be sucked away with a desoldering pump. While adding more solder might feel like the worst thing to do to unsolder something, it really does help. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Jun 8 11:14:41 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 18:14:41 +0200 Subject: defective DEC RZ58-E In-Reply-To: <01OGG2XK0EUA000KH9@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OGG2XK0EUA000KH9@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20120608161441.GB65798@beast.freibergnet.de> Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > >I have here an 1,3Gbyte DEC Drive, 5,35 Inch full heigth. (Seems to have > >the old CDC WREN Mechanics) > >It looks, that the drive electronics are toast. It don't spin up > >the BLDC motor and it blocks the SCSI Bus where the drive is connected. > > > > I had similar problems with two RZ55 drives in VAX2000 size boxes. They > blinked the activity LED several times at power on but didn't spin up. I > thought the were counting out a fault code. > > The bus issue turned out to be a bad cable and the reason they didn't spin > up was because they weren't supposed to spin up until commanded to by the host. > > (Just before trying them, I'd tried a different disk that is supposed to spin > up at power up but didn't due to a power supply failure so I was in the wrong > frame of mind for disks that don't spin up automatically. That's my excuse > and I'm sticking to it!) > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. No Peter. It is the disk, and I bought is as defective. The LED Connector on the Board has steady 0.9Volts. Nothing Blinks and I think the SCSI Chip (from Emulex) on the PCB must be dead, since it stops the SCSI Bus. I have 2 Tape drives on that bus and an external cable that is going to an Drive Case with a seperate PSU. I'm using that Case and that (2nd.) SCSI Bus for testing, other Disks are working. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 8 11:17:34 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 10:17:34 -0600 Subject: Tek Magnolia (Was: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Paxton Hoag writes: > Later, I did get a set of 4404s and a set of the original Tektronix > software for them. I am planning on passing the SW onto another > collector, Jerry, for imaging as he has a 4404. I have a 4404 and a > 4406 to go with the disks....and a bunch of the drive units. I also > have a Xerox 1108 AI workstation in storage that I got as part of the > collection. Sweet! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 8 11:27:01 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 09:27:01 -0700 Subject: what would cause a 5 1/4" drive to choke on a standard disk? In-Reply-To: <1339170467.92898.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339170467.92898.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FD1C565.24450.3CEE34@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jun 2012 at 8:47, Chris Tofu wrote: > I asked this in the past. You attempt to format a disk, and it grinds. > Why? 99 44/100 out of 100 times, it's dirty/fouled heads (if you're certain the disk is okay--formats on a different drive). Some nasty shedding media will deposit crud on on the heads that can't easily be removed with isopropanol. I've used perchloroethylene in those cases. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 8 11:28:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 09:28:50 -0700 Subject: Corroded terminal removal? In-Reply-To: <5B9382FF-0FE1-471F-A92D-17A3DEC967E3@gmail.com> References: , <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com>, <5B9382FF-0FE1-471F-A92D-17A3DEC967E3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FD1C5D2.12880.3E9954@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jun 2012 at 11:40, David Riley wrote: > The big problem is that the ground terminal connects to an > internal plane, not a surface trace. I'd be worried about > removing the hole plating with the drill. I suppose, since > it's going to ground, it would be easy enough to white-wire > to another known ground point, but I'd like to avoid that > approach if possible. Use enough heat--those inner ground-plane connections will suck the soul out of a standard 40W TC iron. As others have mentioned, add solder to it while you work. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 8 14:37:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 20:37:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Corroded terminal removal? In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Jun 8, 12 06:30:32 am Message-ID: > However, the last bits of the terminals for the battery holders > are still in the holes. With careful application of abrasives > and solvent, I managed to clean them to shiny metal, but they're Have you tried a weak acid, like citric acid? I've found thst helps a lot. > resisting desoldering pretty well (they seem to be mostly rust > or similar corroded detritus at this point). > > Anyone have tips on removing corroded battery terminals from a > PCB? The other thing that often helps is to melt some new sodler onto the connections. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 8 14:41:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 20:41:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Corroded terminal removal? In-Reply-To: <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 8, 12 08:32:00 am Message-ID: > > On 8 Jun 2012 at 6:30, David Riley wrote: > > > > Anyone have tips on removing corroded battery terminals from a > > PCB? > > Given that it's a battery, why not just drill them out? Do you _know_ that there are no connections to internal layers of the board? Drilling out the solder will most likely damage the throuhg-hole plating. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 8 15:26:12 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 13:26:12 -0700 Subject: Corroded terminal removal? In-Reply-To: References: <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 8, 12 08:32:00 am, Message-ID: <4FD1FD74.28596.117E794@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jun 2012 at 20:41, Tony Duell wrote: > Do you _know_ that there are no connections to internal layers of the > board? Drilling out the solder will most likely damage the > throuhg-hole plating. As David noted, if the connection is to the buried ground plane, alternate connections are available, should you slip with your #70 bit. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 8 16:15:23 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 14:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft cordless telephone In-Reply-To: <1339167994.96668.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339167994.96668.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120608135525.U56438@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > No I don't have one, nor ever owned one (though I was given the base and > the original box by the same guy who gave me my color Canon AS-100). > What is one worth? Since I didn't have the actual phone, I chucked it. > Stupid? It has to be a rare item. I had a few of them. 900MHz, not very reliable. Nice IDEA, to use a PC to run a phone - I had always wanted an answering machine that would use the caller-ID, instead of my having to decipher mumbles; click on the display to hear the message; alternate click to dial, etc. Well it almost worked. No two line version, which is why I had more than one. MICROS~1 stated that it could also function as a TDD (Deaf TTY - CCITT18?), but nobody in their "tech support" could come up with HOW to get it to do it - they would literally read aloud the marketing spec promise, declare that "YES, it can do it", and then not be able to figure out "what to click on". It needed manual intervention to recover from power glitches. Meanwhile, for regular TELEPHONE use, Uniden had a 2-line 900MHz that had a "spare recharger" in the base, letting the machine continue working normally during power outages, AND permitting swapping of batteries to always have a charged one on hand. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jun 8 16:16:54 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 23:16:54 +0200 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 00:07:05 +0100 David Brownlee wrote: > Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP About 10 years ago a friend run a web server on a MicroVAX 2000 to serve his personal homepage. He netbooted the the NetBSD kernel for the MV2k and mounted / from a local SCSI disk connected to the "tape port". Though, he used static pages and thttpd. No AMP bloat. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 8 16:25:54 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 14:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what would cause a 5 1/4" drive to choke on a standard disk? In-Reply-To: <1339170467.92898.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339170467.92898.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120608142013.Y56438@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > I asked this in the past. You attempt to format a disk, and it grinds. Why? I've had them squuek, screech, squeal, chatter, seek incessantly, but never GRIND. 'course, thinking back to auto repair, sometimes people have a strange idea of what "grind" sounds like. excessive seeking is due to read errors, and retries Are the heads filthy? is the disk able to turn freely? With a couple of fingers through the center hole, you should be able to turn the disk in its jacket. Go to the edge of a table, and with the disk perpendicular to the edge, rub it HARD, so that it is slightly deforming the jacket; that will loosen it up a bit. From chd at chdickman.com Fri Jun 8 18:12:37 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 19:12:37 -0400 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 00:07:05 +0100 > David Brownlee wrote: > > > Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP > About 10 years ago a friend run a web server on a MicroVAX 2000 to > serve his personal homepage. He netbooted the the NetBSD kernel for the > MV2k and mounted / from a local SCSI disk connected to the "tape port". > Though, he used static pages and thttpd. No AMP bloat. > > My personal homepage was hosted on a VS3100/30 running NetBSD 1.4 with Apache and PHP for a couple of years. It worked well. At some point I upgraded the hardware to a VS4000/60. I had trouble with NetBSD 1.6 and later and finally stopped using the vax for my web server in about 2004. -chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Jun 8 18:28:35 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 16:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what would cause a 5 1/4" drive to choke on a standard disk? Message-ID: <1339198115.56112.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Not grinding, but that DUHDUHDUHDUHDUHDUH ------------------------------ On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 2:25 PM PDT Fred Cisin wrote: >On Fri, 8 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> I asked this in the past. You attempt to format a disk, and it grinds. Why? > >I've had them squuek, screech, squeal, chatter, seek incessantly, but >never GRIND. 'course, thinking back to auto repair, sometimes people >have a strange idea of what "grind" sounds like. > >excessive seeking is due to read errors, and retries > >Are the heads filthy? > >is the disk able to turn freely? With a couple of fingers through the >center hole, you should be able to turn the disk in its jacket. Go to the >edge of a table, and with the disk perpendicular to the edge, rub it HARD, >so that it is slightly deforming the jacket; that will loosen it up a bit. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 8 19:30:45 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 17:30:45 -0700 Subject: what would cause a 5 1/4" drive to choke on a standard disk? In-Reply-To: <20120608142013.Y56438@shell.lmi.net> References: <1339170467.92898.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <20120608142013.Y56438@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FD236C5.11659.1F7CCE6@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jun 2012 at 14:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > I've had them squuek, screech, squeal, chatter, seek incessantly, but > never GRIND. 'course, thinking back to auto repair, sometimes > people have a strange idea of what "grind" sounds like. When you take your PC to the beach, keep it out of the sand to keep it from grinding. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 8 23:01:49 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 22:01:49 -0600 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: I wonder if you could make a web server that used TECO as the page processing language. TECO could be used to process the headers and body of the request, modifying it in-place to produce the response headers and body. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Jun 9 00:01:09 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 01:01:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury In-Reply-To: <4FD0A87F.7136.10AE11B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com> <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com> <4FD0A87F.7136.10AE11B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201206090501.BAA15139@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > For me, the attraction of Bradbury is his way with words--almost > poetic in the way he crafted them. Almost? :) The man was a genius at spinning images with words. He will be missed. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 9 00:04:31 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 22:04:31 -0700 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4FD2D95F.8030201@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > I wonder if you could make a web server that used TECO as the page > processing language. TECO could be used to process the headers and > body of the request, modifying it in-place to produce the response > headers and body. I can't imagine why not. TECO is Turing-complete. I wouldn't want the job of writing it, though. I've got less productive things to do with my time. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Jun 9 00:47:42 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 22:47:42 -0700 Subject: Grid Compass II Manual? Message-ID: <4FD2E37E.9050708@mail.msu.edu> Are manuals for the Grid Compass (or Compass II) archived anywhere? I picked up a Compass II this week (alas, no peripherals or media) and having a user's manual would be helpful to get to know my way around its OS. (I suspect there might be one or two things wrong with mine since about 90% of the time I get System Errors and other interesting behaviors while playing around; but having a manual to decipher the errors would at least be a start...) Thanks, Josh From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 11:08:34 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 12:08:34 -0400 Subject: Corroded terminal removal? In-Reply-To: <4FD1C5D2.12880.3E9954@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com>, <5B9382FF-0FE1-471F-A92D-17A3DEC967E3@gmail.com> <4FD1C5D2.12880.3E9954@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <9DFEDEC6-C99A-4975-B176-FC5E5A0EBCE4@gmail.com> On Jun 8, 2012, at 12:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Jun 2012 at 11:40, David Riley wrote: > > >> The big problem is that the ground terminal connects to an >> internal plane, not a surface trace. I'd be worried about >> removing the hole plating with the drill. I suppose, since >> it's going to ground, it would be easy enough to white-wire >> to another known ground point, but I'd like to avoid that >> approach if possible. > > Use enough heat--those inner ground-plane connections will suck the > soul out of a standard 40W TC iron. As others have mentioned, add > solder to it while you work. Right - I have enough desoldering experience to know to keep it wet (it's more intuitive than you might think, as molten lead is a much better heat carrier than a point contact). I guess it's getting about time for me to upgrade from the 30W Weller fire-starter I've been using for years, though. I guess most of my question boils down to the fact that the pins seem to have corroded all the way through, so I didn't think they'd be particularly amenable to conventional extraction. CAIG Flux-Off seems to do fairly well for removing the worst of the corrosion once sufficiently abraded, but I suppose DeOx-It would be a better candidate if I had any. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Jun 9 08:45:19 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 06:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corroded terminal removal? In-Reply-To: <9DFEDEC6-C99A-4975-B176-FC5E5A0EBCE4@gmail.com> References: , <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com>, <5B9382FF-0FE1-471F-A92D-17A3DEC967E3@gmail.com> <4FD1C5D2.12880.3E9954@cclist.sydex.com> <9DFEDEC6-C99A-4975-B176-FC5E5A0EBCE4@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Right - I have enough desoldering experience to know to keep > it wet (it's more intuitive than you might think, as molten > lead is a much better heat carrier than a point contact). I > guess it's getting about time for me to upgrade from the 30W > Weller fire-starter I've been using for years, though. > > I guess most of my question boils down to the fact that the > pins seem to have corroded all the way through, so I didn't > think they'd be particularly amenable to conventional > extraction. CAIG Flux-Off seems to do fairly well for > removing the worst of the corrosion once sufficiently abraded, > but I suppose DeOx-It would be a better candidate if I had any. > Dave, I'd recommend the Hakko FX-888. It's a very nice iron and can be had for around $80. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jun 9 12:01:54 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 10:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w Message-ID: <1339261314.68053.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have a lot of M* stuff, but not everything. We can trade or I can send you moola-shmoola. Reply offlist or call 804-732-7608 (I intentionally put the area code after the exchange, so swap it). From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Jun 9 12:36:14 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:36:14 +0200 Subject: defective DEC RZ58-E In-Reply-To: <20120608102454.GD43258@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120608100222.GB43258@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120608102454.GD43258@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120609173614.GB87578@beast.freibergnet.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > > > On 6/8/12, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > I have here an 1,3Gbyte DEC Drive, 5,35 Inch full heigth. (Seems to have > > > the old CDC WREN Mechanics) > > > It looks, that the drive electronics are toast. It don't spin up > > > the BLDC motor and it blocks the SCSI Bus where the drive is connected. > > > > > > Maybe there is someone out here that has a Drive with an Head Crash and > > > want to sell me the electronics? > > > > Let me check if I do when I get home. If I have one, you're welcome to it. > > Sounds great Camiel :-) > > There should be a service manual for that drives "EK-RZ58D-SV" anyone seen > that or have it? > > Regards, > > Holm Unfortunately Camiel hasn't found RZ58-E in his junkbox, so the call still is active... Can you please take a look..? Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 9 12:42:34 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 10:42:34 -0700 Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w In-Reply-To: <1339261314.68053.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339261314.68053.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FD38B0A.4090207@bitsavers.org> On 6/9/12 10:01 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I have a lot of M* stuff, but not everything. Do you have service schematics, or dumped the firmware? I have some documentation at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mindset/ From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sat Jun 9 14:17:29 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 21:17:29 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com> References: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > I?ve completed a list of boards in the P800 haul: I've placed photographs of all the different types of boards on http://p800.wikispaces.com/Boards. I've still got a few boards that are unidentified. I've also got a few IC's that I can't identify: TERNET-1701 RTC REC0612 RTC REC0612A RTC REC613P Anyone heard of these? I've also got some Philips boards (6U eurocard size) with 8080 and 8085 CPU's and a single 64-pin (row A+C) DIN 41612 connector. Cards are labeled "CRB 1" (8080), 3 x "CRD 2" (8080), "CRK 1" (8085). Any idea what these are, anyone? Camiel From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jun 9 16:50:42 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 14:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w Message-ID: <1339278642.42505.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> turns out none of my units work anymore. Short of pulling the roms... I may have the service docs. I know I have the marketing guide. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 9 18:35:25 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w In-Reply-To: <1339278642.42505.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339278642.42505.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120609163501.L97628@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 9 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > turns out none of my units work anymore. Short of pulling the roms... I > may have the service docs. I know I have the marketing guide. Mindset was always much more about marketing than about service. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jun 9 19:07:22 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 20:07:22 -0400 Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w In-Reply-To: <1339278642.42505.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339278642.42505.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Basic was never released on rom cartridge. Yes it was mentioned in marketing materials but was never developed onto rom Sent from my iPhone On Jun 9, 2012, at 5:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > turns out none of my units work anymore. Short of pulling the roms... I may have the service docs. I know I have the marketing guide. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jun 9 19:17:30 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 17:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w Message-ID: <1339287450.67397.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I might be forced to agree. They arent very reliable. To say the least. But that doesnt diminish theyre collectibility. Theyre just one of the grooviest units out there. And if anyone wants a non-working one, let me know. ------------------------------ On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 4:35 PM PDT Fred Cisin wrote: >On Sat, 9 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> turns out none of my units work anymore. Short of pulling the roms... I >> may have the service docs. I know I have the marketing guide. > >Mindset was always much more about marketing than about service. > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 9 20:44:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 18:44:47 -0700 Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w In-Reply-To: <1339287450.67397.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339287450.67397.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FD3999F.23458.20D2F53@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2012 at 17:17, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I might be forced to agree. They arent very reliable. To say the > least. But that doesnt diminish theyre collectibility. Theyre just one > of the grooviest units out there. And if anyone wants a non-working > one, let me know. Just curious--is the 80186 in the Mindset a ceramic LCC or PLCC or PGA? We used early 80186 steuppings (circa 1981/82) and they, like the early 80286 were always CLCC packages (one of my least favorite packages) . This was before the thing escaped officially. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jun 9 21:15:51 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w Message-ID: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> no??? What about on disk? ------------------------------ On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 5:07 PM PDT Curt Vendel wrote: >Basic was never released on rom cartridge. Yes it was mentioned in marketing materials but was never developed onto rom > > > >Sent from my iPhone > >On Jun 9, 2012, at 5:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> >> turns out none of my units work anymore. Short of pulling the roms... I may have the service docs. I know I have the marketing guide. > From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jun 9 21:43:21 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 22:43:21 -0400 Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w In-Reply-To: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, GW Basic for Mindset was released on diskette Sent from my iPhone On Jun 9, 2012, at 10:15 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > no??? What about on disk? > ------------------------------ > On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 5:07 PM PDT Curt Vendel wrote: > >> Basic was never released on rom cartridge. Yes it was mentioned in marketing materials but was never developed onto rom >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jun 9, 2012, at 5:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >>> >>> turns out none of my units work anymore. Short of pulling the roms... I may have the service docs. I know I have the marketing guide. >> From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sun Jun 10 02:33:15 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 09:33:15 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FD44DBB.6010600@bluewin.ch> Thanks for the pics. Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor memory. ? The core memory boards for the same system are 32kx16 bit. Jos From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 04:40:18 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:40:18 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <4FD44DBB.6010600@bluewin.ch> References: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com> <4FD44DBB.6010600@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor memory. > ? > > The core memory boards for the same system are 32kx16 bit. I'm certain that it uses 21 bits so it can correct single bit errors and detect double-bit errors. This is known as the Hamming code. For 16 data bits, it requires 5 parity bits. Camiel. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 10 10:11:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w In-Reply-To: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net> > >Basic was never released on rom cartridge. Yes it was mentioned in > marketing materials but was never developed onto rom On Sat, 9 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > no??? What about on disk? Sure. BASCOM GW-BASIC From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 10:23:32 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w In-Reply-To: <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net> References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1339341812.73558.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Sure. BASCOM GW-BASIC Specific to the Mindset? I can run BASIC for the TI Pros on a vanilla pc. But I have to believe there's features specific to the TI that would make it choke on that same pc. ?So...what does it take to get BASIC onto a cartridge? Is it as simple as transferring execution the address where the executable begins? I have a Peanut cartridge somewhere in my stash. The only carts I have for the Mindset are NVRAMs. From abs at absd.org Sun Jun 10 11:33:49 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:33:49 +0100 Subject: Webserver performance on VAX [Was: Retrocomputing ... VAMP ...] Message-ID: On 8 June 2012 22:16, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 00:07:05 +0100 > David Brownlee wrote: > >> Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP > About 10 years ago a friend run a web server on a MicroVAX 2000 to > serve his personal homepage. He netbooted the the NetBSD kernel for the > MV2k and mounted / from a local SCSI disk connected to the "tape port". > Though, he used static pages and thttpd. No AMP bloat. The VAX has quite different relative performance characteristics to current standard target x86/arm platforms in terms of memory bandwidth, context switch cost, function call overhead and suchlike. I wonder how various web servers perform on a VAX? Obvious ones to test would be apache (1,2.2 2.4), nginx, thttpd, bozohttpd (those are just the ones I've used myself), lighttpd. yaws and mono-xsp could be interesting is erlang and mono compile :) A simple static test and maybe php with fastcgi for a start. I'd probably just use apachebench from a fast local x86 box. Does anyone else have suggestions as to web servers or different tests that might be interesting? From abs at absd.org Sun Jun 10 11:34:38 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:34:38 +0100 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On 9 June 2012 00:12, Charles Dickman wrote: > On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > >> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 00:07:05 +0100 >> David Brownlee wrote: >> >> > Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP >> About 10 years ago a friend run a web server on a MicroVAX 2000 to >> serve his personal homepage. He netbooted the the NetBSD kernel for the >> MV2k and mounted / from a local SCSI disk connected to the "tape port". >> Though, he used static pages and thttpd. No AMP bloat. >> >> My personal homepage was hosted on a VS3100/30 running NetBSD 1.4 with > Apache and PHP for a couple of years. It worked well. At some point I > upgraded the hardware to a VS4000/60. I had trouble with NetBSD 1.6 and > later and finally stopped using the vax for my web server in about 2004. Sorry to hear that - can you recall what the issues were? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 10 11:36:38 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 09:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w In-Reply-To: <1339341812.73558.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net> <1339341812.73558.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120610092216.K21266@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 10 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > Specific to the Mindset? I can run BASIC for the TI Pros on a vanilla > pc. > But I have to believe there's features specific to the TI that would > make it choke on that same pc. Which version of MS-DOS are you running on your mindset? Which ones do you HAVE? Do you just need BASIC, or do you think that you need one integrated into the hardware, with every graphics and sound mode implemented? Use a GENERIC GWBASIC, NOT the one that was "customized" for the TI. Or use the one that was "customized" for the Mindset. >?So...what does it take to get BASIC onto a cartridge? 1) write a BASIC that is designed for cartridge > Is it as simple as > transferring execution the address where the executable begins? I have a > Peanut cartridge somewhere in my stash. Is that PCJr? THAT cartridge will do you NO GOOD on the Mindset. > The only carts I have for the > Mindset are NVRAMs. Is the file that you want to cartridge an .EXE or a .COM? DO NOT TRUST the extension of the file! Are the first two bytes of it "MZ"? If it is an .EXE, then NO. Those have an elaborate load process. If it is a .COM, then YES, it can be made into a cartridge. Their load process consists of generating a PSP, loading the file into that segment at 100h, and doing a jump to 100h (NO, EXE2BIN will NOT convert any non-trivial program) From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 15:49:43 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 16:49:43 -0400 Subject: Upcoming N8 home brew computer PCBs ordered Message-ID: <015f01cd474a$a9aea740$fd0bf5c0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! Good news! I ordered at batch of the N8 PCBs. The N8 is a group project design from the N8VEM home brew computing project. There is a detailed description at the N8VEM wiki below. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/54039670/N8%20announcement http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=N8-final Please contact me if interested. I anticipate the PCBs will arrive early next week ~19 Jul 2012 Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 10 15:38:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 21:38:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <4FD44DBB.6010600@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Jun 10, 12 09:33:15 am Message-ID: > Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor memory. ? ECC? Is 21 bits enough to detect and correct any signle-bit error? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 10 16:38:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 14:38:17 -0700 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: <4FD44DBB.6010600@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Jun 10, 12 09:33:15 am, Message-ID: <4FD4B159.15632.1477047@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jun 2012 at 21:38, Tony Duell wrote: > > Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor > > memory. ? > > ECC? Is 21 bits enough to detect and correct any signle-bit error? Doesn't anyone call it SECDED any more? --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Jun 10 17:00:21 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 18:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <4FD4B159.15632.1477047@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FD4B159.15632.1477047@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201206102200.SAA04805@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide >>> semiconductor memory. ? >> ECC? Is 21 bits enough to detect and correct any signle-bit error? > Doesn't anyone call it SECDED any more? I haven't thought enough to be sure about whether 21 bits is enough for either, but SEC does not necessarily imply DED.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 17:15:13 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 18:15:13 -0400 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com> On Jun 10, 2012, at 16:38, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor memory. ? > > ECC? Is 21 bits enough to detect and correct any signle-bit error? Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits, which would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits). - Dave From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Jun 10 17:16:59 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 15:16:59 -0700 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39FBEBC1-0320-45D7-B648-5D31EEDB962D@mainecoon.com> On 10 Jun 2012, at 1:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor memory. ? > > ECC? Is 21 bits enough to detect and correct any signle-bit error? It's enough for SECDED; it meets the famous D + P + 1 <= 2^P test. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 17:24:25 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:24:25 -0500 Subject: Seagate ST4206 disk drives Message-ID: I have 3 ST4206 drives in sealed static bags (spares from a maintenance company) and 2 loose ones. Feel free to make an offer off list. More to follow soon. Shippping is from 61853. Thanks, Paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 17:45:33 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 23:45:33 +0100 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0834C028A0C346358523644601EE57C3@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley > Sent: 10 June 2012 23:15 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: P800 boards > > > On Jun 10, 2012, at 16:38, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > >> Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide > semiconductor > >> memory. ? > > > > ECC? Is 21 bits enough to detect and correct any signle-bit error? > > Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 > bits, which would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits). > > - Dave > Memory often uses Hamming Correction so it can correct single bit errors and detect multiple bit errors. I believe in this case for 16 bits of data you need 5 bits of parity... (2**m-1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamming_code Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From chd at chdickman.com Sun Jun 10 19:00:10 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:00:10 -0400 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 12:34 PM, David Brownlee wrote: > On 9 June 2012 00:12, Charles Dickman wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jochen Kunz >wrote: > I had trouble with NetBSD 1.6 and > > later and finally stopped using the vax for my web server in about 2004. > > Sorry to hear that - can you recall what the issues were? > I couldn't get the packages to build and it was usually something floating point related. I think Perl was one that I looked into the most. From david at classiccomputing.com Sun Jun 10 19:04:35 2012 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:04:35 -0400 Subject: Get a great deal on a recently published computer history book Message-ID: <73022672-9A3C-4A2A-8649-8A2C38EF2333@classiccomputing.com> I've posted about my book here not long ago, so I hope you all will indulge me one last time. I really want to get a bunch of them into peoples hands, so I'm offering a special, great deal - Get both the book, "The Complete Historically Brewed" and the zine, "Classic Computing" for just $25 shipped! For international buyers, I'll subtract $3 off the shipping. Find out more here - http://www.classiccomputing.com/CC/HB_Book.html Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian - Author, "The Complete Historically Brewed" - Founder, Atlanta Historical Computing Society - "Classic Computing Show" podcast - "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast - "Retro Computing Roundtable" podcast ClassicComputing.com | atlhcs.org From tpresence at hotmail.com Sat Jun 9 09:23:18 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 08:23:18 -0600 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: , <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 to the console of a microvax III (3900). I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable, but there are a few flavors. At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D, however its possible I ned H8575-E. Someone know which one to purchase? I have the BC16E cable required... Kevin From earl at retrobits.com Sat Jun 9 14:07:19 2012 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 12:07:19 -0700 Subject: 25 RL02K Carts up near Portland, Or In-Reply-To: <4FCD9F01.7000002@gmail.com> References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net> <4FCD9F01.7000002@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 10:54 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I have nothing to do with this but, ran across it searching Craigslist. > > http://portland.craigslist.**org/mlt/sys/3058089196.html > > Here's the text: > > "I have for sale a few vintage data cartridges. They are 10mb and in good > used condition.. text 503.891.3115.. price is $25 each or all 25 for $400" > I guess Portland must have cornered the market on used RL02 cartridges. I have about 35 myself. - Earl From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 19:16:38 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w In-Reply-To: <20120610092216.K21266@shell.lmi.net> References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net> <1339341812.73558.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120610092216.K21266@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1339373798.85051.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Which version of MS-DOS are you running on your mindset? Which ones do you HAVE? C: I don't bloody know Fred. I believe I said they were all dead as doorknobs, therefore I can't possibly be running anything on them. I am running a sale though. I can't remember what images I have either. When I get into all that crud I'm going to make them available to the burgeoning Mindset community. You want a set? Do you just need BASIC, or do you think that you need one integrated into the hardware, with every graphics and sound mode implemented? C: all of the above preferably. As it stands though I might wind up high and dry. Is there a Mindset specific BASIC? Use a GENERIC GWBASIC, NOT the one that was "customized" for the TI. Or use the one that was "customized" for the Mindset. C: but the TI version runs on stock pc's. Why can't I run it on the Mindset??? Screen mode 0 at least is compatible w/peecee hardwarez. >?So...what does it take to get BASIC onto a cartridge? 1) write a BASIC that is designed for cartridge ?C: Homey don't play that. Is that PCJr?? THAT cartridge will do you NO GOOD on the Mindset. ?C: Obviously if it's not physically compatible. Give me some credit. But it is at least cartridge BASIC, don't need to write my own. Shmott, no? > The only carts I have for the > Mindset are NVRAMs. Is the file that you want to cartridge an .EXE or a .COM? C:? Most early Gee-Whiz BASICs are .com's, no? I'm not trying to cartridge anything at the moment. I'm just poking around. ?And incidentally isn't it astounding how much computer lingo gets recycled - DO NOT TRUST the extension of the file!? Are the first two bytes of it "MZ"? C: That's actually a good point. But if YOU wrote something, should I trust it then? If it is an .EXE, then NO.? Those have an elaborate load process. If it is a .COM, then YES, it can be made into a cartridge.? Their load process consists of generating a PSP, loading the file into that segment at 100h, and doing a jump to 100h C: All "executables" get loaded at offset 100h, no? That is CS:0100. I thought that's how ti worked. (NO, EXE2BIN will NOT convert any non-trivial program) ?C: I never would have suggested that. If it was written to be a .com, and obeyed the rules, _none_ of which I remember, then it would. I don't know why you have to continually insult me. Sheesh. ?Incidentally the "tiny" model in later versions of MASM indicate the resultant code would become a .com, no? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 10 19:41:11 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:41:11 -0400 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: References: , <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4FD53EA7.9090005@neurotica.com> On 06/09/2012 10:23 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 to the console of a microvax III (3900). > > I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable, but there are a few flavors. At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D, however its possible I ned H8575-E. > > Someone know which one to purchase? I have the BC16E cable required... There are lots of flavors. Though Tony will probably blow a fuse when reading this suggestion, figuring out the absolute perfectly correct one is a complete waste of time...Get an MMJ adapter, whichever one you can find. Plug it in. If it doesn't talk, insert a null modem, and it will talk. Simple as that. Be sure to disable flow control on the terminal. Again, I'm usually a purist to a fault, but where async serial is concerned, if the GOAL is to get it talking, do what I said above...if the goal is to spend two hours diving into the (unbelievably poor) RS232 standard, and then figuring out your mix of vendors' creative interpretations of that standard, then figure out how to make it all talk, then go get exactly what you need and plug it in...I've already gotten the OS halfway installed by that point. I spent years agonizing and being anal-retentive over "which one is DTE, which is DCE" etc etc and just said "screw this, I want to BOOT the damn thing!"...and have never looked back. ;) If you have any sort of MicroVAXen, you should keep a few MMJ adapters of various flavors around anyway and if you have any sort of random non-PeeCee computers, you should have a handful of null modems, gender changers, DE9<->DB25 adapters, etc etc. You will use them all the time, if you don't already. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 10 20:02:07 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 18:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w In-Reply-To: <1339373798.85051.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net> <1339341812.73558.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120610092216.K21266@shell.lmi.net> <1339373798.85051.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120610173623.F32239@shell.lmi.net> > > Is that PCJr?? THAT cartridge will do you NO GOOD on the Mindset. > ?C: Obviously if it's not physically compatible. Give me some credit. > But it is at least cartridge BASIC, don't need to write my own. Shmott, no? Unfortunately, a "BASIC cartridge" could be for adding BASIC to a computer, OR could be for supplementing a BASIC that is built-in, much like BASICA being a supplement to the ROM BASIC, rather than stand-alone. Of course SOME companies, such as Compaq, renamed their GW-BASIC to BASICA.COM "for compatability with legacy batch files" > > DO NOT TRUST the extension of the file!? Are the first two bytes of it > > "MZ"? > C: That's actually a good point. But if YOU wrote something, should I > trust it then? NO. Sometimes, including the files that come with MS-DOS, an .EXE may be renamed a .COM or vice-versa (harmlessly) just to be compatible with legacy batch files, OR because a .COM will be run before a .EXE if the rest of the filename matches! Once it is "committed" to running an executable file, MS-DOS doesn't CARE whether it is REALLY a .COM or .EXE until it starts to load it, and then it ignores the extension and looks at the first two bytes. C: All "executables" get loaded at offset 100h, no? That is CS:0100. I thought that's how ti worked. NO. A .EXE can make exceptions, and can have more than one segment. As you know, a .COM is one segment, and is an actual image of what will be in memory. [EXE2BIN] >?C: I never would have suggested that. If it was written to be a .com, > and obeyed the rules, _none_ of which I remember, then it would. I don't > know why you have to continually insult me. Sheesh. ? I will stop insulting you as soon as there is any indication that you already know what we are talking about. (such as that paragraph, or the next one) And just how am I, or anybody else, supposed to know that you already know that EXE2BIN does NOT work on any and every .EXE (as is implied in the MS-DOS docs)? > Incidentally the > "tiny" model in later versions of MASM indicate the resultant code would > become a.com, no? Yes, but that is not all the requirements. It is actually quite easy to make a file that is NOT compatible with being .COM in "tiny" model. Some obvious situations would be writing a device driver, writing code to be ROM'ed, or writing an overlay module. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 20:28:39 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 18:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w In-Reply-To: <20120610173623.F32239@shell.lmi.net> References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net> <1339341812.73558.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120610092216.K21266@shell.lmi.net> <1339373798.85051.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120610173623.F32239@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1339378119.61412.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > C: That's actually a good point. But if YOU wrote something, should I > trust it then? NO.? C: Thanks for the heads up. Oopha! I will stop insulting you as soon as there is any indication that you already know what we are talking about.? (such as that paragraph, or the next one)? And just how am I, or anybody else, supposed to know that you already know that EXE2BIN does NOT work on any and every .EXE (as is implied in the MS-DOS docs)? C: See I knew you were insulting me. At least you're honest, despite said statement a paragraph ago. Regardless of what the MS-DOofiS manual says, I learned properly. I read Peter Abel's book. I want to check the Tandy 2000 MS-DOS manual also. I believe it gives more or less accurate info on that. > Incidentally the > "tiny" model in later versions of MASM indicate the resultant code would > become a.com, no? Yes, but that is not all the requirements.? It is actually quite easy to make a file that is NOT compatible with being .COM in "tiny" model.? Some obvious situations would be writing a device driver, writing code to be ROM'ed, or writing an overlay module. C: Okay. So the tiny model doesn't necessarily denote a .com. Gotcha. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 10 21:17:04 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 19:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w In-Reply-To: <1339378119.61412.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net> <1339341812.73558.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120610092216.K21266@shell.lmi.net> <1339373798.85051.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120610173623.F32239@shell.lmi.net> <1339378119.61412.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120610184153.X34509@shell.lmi.net> C: See I knew you were insulting me. At least you're honest, despite said statement a paragraph ago. Regardless of what the MS-DOofiS manual says, I learned properly. I read Peter Abel's book. I want to check the Tandy 2000 MS-DOS manual also. I believe it gives more or less accurate info on that. Not deliberately. I included a lot of beginning and simplistic stuff, because I had no way to know that you already had some familiarity with different types of MS-DOS executable, etc. Sorry about all of the silliness about .COM, .EXE, EXE2BIN, etc. A guy who used to work for me 20 years ago was into Mindset. But he doesn't have any of it any more, and probably remembers little or nothing about it. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 21:51:47 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 19:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w Message-ID: <1339383107.92717.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> oh you know you meant it so stop all your fibbing! ------------------------------ On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 7:17 PM PDT Fred Cisin wrote: >C: See I knew you were insulting me. At least you're honest, despite said statement a paragraph ago. Regardless of what the MS-DOofiS manual says, I learned properly. I read Peter Abel's book. I want to check the Tandy 2000 MS-DOS manual also. I believe it gives more or less accurate info on that. > >Not deliberately. I included a lot of beginning and simplistic stuff, >because I had no way to know that you already had some familiarity with >different types of MS-DOS executable, etc. > >Sorry about all of the silliness about .COM, .EXE, EXE2BIN, etc. > > >A guy who used to work for me 20 years ago was into Mindset. But he >doesn't have any of it any more, and probably remembers little or nothing >about it. > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Jun 10 21:51:56 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 19:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w Message-ID: <1339383116.33918.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> oh you know you meant it so stop all your fibbing! From jws at jwsss.com Mon Jun 11 03:24:13 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 01:24:13 -0700 Subject: 2314 parts on epay Message-ID: <4FD5AB2D.3080302@jwsss.com> These are horribly overpriced as is all the vendor has, but this auction includes three cans of hydraulic fluid for these drives and some other plumbing. http://www.ebay.com/itm/180899093505 There is another auction for more 2314 equipment http://www.ebay.com/itm/180899093355 Also if you look at other auctions, he is very proud of several Department of Defense manuals about card and unit record equipment. Maybe that is rare enough to be worth $500 / manual, but I'm not a buyer at that price. Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 11 08:26:46 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 06:26:46 -0700 Subject: 2314 parts on epay In-Reply-To: <4FD5AB2D.3080302@jwsss.com> References: <4FD5AB2D.3080302@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4FD5F216.7080704@bitsavers.org> On 6/11/12 1:24 AM, jim s wrote: > > These are horribly overpriced as is all the vendor has He is nuts. Someone gave him my email address and I ignored him. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 11 09:53:24 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 07:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar Message-ID: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> Marklar was, of course, the Intel version of OS X which existed in Apple's skunkworks after the apparent demise of Star Trek (classic OS on x86). I say apparent, because this post, allegedly written by the wife of the chief engineer, implies that Marklar rose from the ashes of Star Trek due to this guy's efforts. http://www.quora.com/Apple-Inc-2/How-does-Apple-keep-secrets-so-well/answer/Kim-Scheinberg?srid=i1 Not sure how true it is; perhaps Al Kossow knows. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Experience only makes you more interesting and marketable. -- Judy Blackburn From jon at jonworld.com Mon Jun 11 10:05:24 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:05:24 -0400 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Marklar was, of course, the Intel version of OS X which existed in Apple's > skunkworks after the apparent demise of Star Trek (classic OS on x86). I > say > apparent, because this post, allegedly written by the wife of the chief > engineer, implies that Marklar rose from the ashes of Star Trek due to this > guy's efforts. > > > http://www.quora.com/Apple-Inc-2/How-does-Apple-keep-secrets-so-well/answer/Kim-Scheinberg?srid=i1 > > Not sure how true it is; perhaps Al Kossow knows. > I love the South Park reference, but I'm wondering why they kept NetInfo around for so many years and only recently ditched it. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 11 10:38:30 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 08:38:30 -0700 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> On 6/11/12 7:53 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > http://www.quora.com/Apple-Inc-2/How-does-Apple-keep-secrets-so-well/answer/Kim-Scheinberg?srid=i1 > > Not sure how true it is; perhaps Al Kossow knows. > It's real. Could someone make this up? Though it really was not that important for another couple of years until there was no portable roadmap for G5 from IBM. Nice to see some oldtimers posting some comments there. What it doesn't go into is all the bad blood between the NeXT, A/UX, and Classic OS groups (JK and Sokol were long time Apple Unix guys). When things got bad in the late 90's, a lot of good people lost their jobs because they couldn't find a place to go when their groups were disbanded. The thing you figured out at Apple early is if you were going to survive, you had to be looking for your next gig inside the company. Some times groups got to stay together to do the next generation of product, sometimes not. The thing that was destroyed when Steve came back was the ability to network to do this because of all the secrecy. It has gotten a LOT worse since I left. Franky, I pity the people there now. It is not a nice place to work and is not somewhere I would ever consider going back to. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 11 10:52:43 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 08:52:43 -0700 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 7:53 AM -0700 6/11/12, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Marklar was, of course, the Intel version of OS X which existed in Apple's >skunkworks after the apparent demise of Star Trek (classic OS on x86). I say >apparent, because this post, allegedly written by the wife of the chief >engineer, implies that Marklar rose from the ashes of Star Trek due to this >guy's efforts. > >http://www.quora.com/Apple-Inc-2/How-does-Apple-keep-secrets-so-well/answer/Kim-Scheinberg?srid=i1 > >Not sure how true it is; perhaps Al Kossow knows. One thing that I find suspicious about this is that the first few Developers releases for Mac OS X ran on Intel-based systems. Apple had to port it to PPC, they didn't have to port to Intel, as it already ran on Intel. I'd be more inclined to believe that the PPC processor was never intended to be the long term target for Mac OS X, than I am to believe that at some point it didn't run on Intel. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From md.benson at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 10:53:13 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 16:53:13 +0100 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8400481012859501786@unknownmsgid> On 11 Jun 2012, at 16:13, Jonathan Katz wrote: > I love the South Park reference, but I'm wondering why they kept NetInfo > around for so many years and only recently ditched it. That was inheritance from NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP and you're right, it didn't really disappear until 10.4 or 10.5 IIRC. It was ugly, it was even worse in OPENSTEP! -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From md.benson at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 11:23:56 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:23:56 +0100 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4147706669824788312@unknownmsgid> On 11 Jun 2012, at 17:00, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > One thing that I find suspicious about this is that the first few Developers releases for Mac OS X ran on Intel-based systems. Apple had to port it to PPC, they didn't have to port to Intel, as it already ran on Intel. I'd be more inclined to believe that the PPC processor was never intended to be the long term target for Mac OS X, than I am to believe that at some point it didn't run on Intel. Apple did have to port the original Mach Kernel-based OS to PPC because it was originally OPENSTEP which ran on PA-RISC, SPARC, 680x0 and Intel. I *don't* recall developers releases OS X that ran on Intel, but I wasn't a registered student developer at the time, I joined ADC in 2000. I have OS X Rhapsody PR1 & 2 and those are both Mac PPC. I don't have anything earlier but it probably isn't 'in the wild' anywhere I could have obtained it. I think, given it's origins, the Intel card was always in Apple's back pocket as a contingency. What that story more likely refers to is having a full-blooded working Intel version of OS X proper on an Intel PC. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 11 11:26:18 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 09:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Jun 11, 12 08:38:30 am" Message-ID: <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> > What it doesn't go into is all the bad blood between the NeXT, A/UX, and > Classic OS groups (JK and Sokol were long time Apple Unix guys). I shudder to ask the history. I know A/UX didn't make it into the PPC era, but was an internecine dispute to blame, or just unwillingness to invest the engineering time? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The world is not enough. --------------------------------------------------- From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 11:35:50 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 12:35:50 -0400 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <8400481012859501786@unknownmsgid> References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> <8400481012859501786@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <3887B046-79D1-4DD0-BFED-77F39478F942@gmail.com> On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:53, Mark Benson wrote: > On 11 Jun 2012, at 16:13, Jonathan Katz wrote: > >> I love the South Park reference, but I'm wondering why they kept NetInfo >> around for so many years and only recently ditched it. > > That was inheritance from NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP and you're right, it > didn't really disappear until 10.4 or 10.5 IIRC. It was ugly, it was > even worse in OPENSTEP! As has been discussed somewhat recently on this list, I recall that the end of NetInfo coincided with the departure of Tevanian. Draw your own conclusions. The only way I could ever think to describe NetInfo to outsiders was, "Think of Windows' registry, but worse." - Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 11 11:54:10 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 09:54:10 -0700 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FD622B2.20007@bitsavers.org> On 6/11/12 8:52 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'd be more inclined to believe that the PPC processor was never intended to be the long term target for Mac OS X, than I am to believe that at some point it didn't run on Intel. > http://www.paulbeard.org/wordpress/2002/08/31/think-different-and-keep-your-options-open/ The point of Marklar was to KEEP it working on Intel. It was a small group, since Intel was not in the product roadmap for several more years. How early Intel based Mac hardware existed still hasn't been made generally known. I suspect it existed in the portable world before desktops. As far as desktops were concerened, all of the product groups I worked with through the end of 2004 were building only with PPC. From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 14:18:06 2012 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 12:18:06 -0700 Subject: Shameless parts trafficking! part2 Message-ID: More shed cleaning. Unibus boards plus pdp11/23 and an complete pro350 seller tcp1022 (me). As always mention to me your a list member and I'll throw in a goodie or two. cheers tom From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 11 14:18:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 20:18:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: from "Kevin Reynolds" at Jun 9, 12 08:23:18 am Message-ID: > > > I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 to= > the console of a microvax III (3900). > > I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable=2C but there are a few flavors.= > At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D=2C howev= > er its possible I ned H8575-E. > > Someone know which one to purchase? I have the BC16E cable required... You're not going to like this, but what I would do is buy whichever adapter was easiest/cheapest to get. Plug that into the Microvax cable and then see what signals appear on the DB25. And then make up an dapter with a couple of DB25 conenctors to match it to the (DTE) port on the terminal, since DB25s are available just about anywhere... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 11 14:21:43 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 20:21:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Jun 10, 12 06:15:13 pm Message-ID: > > On Jun 10, 2012, at 16:38, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > >> Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor memory. ? > > > > ECC? Is 21 bits enough to detect and correct any signle-bit error? > > Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits, which > would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits). Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. Those can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct), -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 11 14:37:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 20:37:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: <4FD53EA7.9090005@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 10, 12 08:41:11 pm Message-ID: > > On 06/09/2012 10:23 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > > I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 to the console of a microvax III (3900). > > > > I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable, but there are a few flavors. At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D, however its possible I ned H8575-E. > > > > Someone know which one to purchase? I have the BC16E cable required... > > There are lots of flavors. Though Tony will probably blow a fuse when > reading this suggestion, figuring out the absolute perfectly correct one No, I won't, and you won't blow a (real) fuse, or an IC, or anythjing if you try it. One good thign abotu RS232 is that it is designed to withstand having signals shorted or mis-connected. > is a complete waste of time...Get an MMJ adapter, whichever one you can > find. Plug it in. If it doesn't talk, insert a null modem, and it will > talk. Simple as that. I wouldn't quite do that. I'd grab one of thos little DB25-DB25 adapters with LEDs to monitor the most important signals. Plug that into the dapater first (with the adaptor conencted to the (powered-up) Microvax) and see which line (2 or 3) it's transmitting on. One will be driven, the otehr won't be. Then if it's driving pin 2, you need a null-modem. I have solved many RS232 problems with little more than that. > > Be sure to disable flow control on the terminal. > > Again, I'm usually a purist to a fault, but where async serial is > concerned, if the GOAL is to get it talking, do what I said above...if > the goal is to spend two hours diving into the (unbelievably poor) RS232 > standard, and then figuring out your mix of vendors' creative > interpretations of that standard, then figure out how to make it all The worst thing I had to handle was an HP RS232 interface that correctly (as per the standard) did the half-duplex turnaround with the control lines. Problem is, almost nothing else does that... > talk, then go get exactly what you need and plug it in...I've already > gotten the OS halfway installed by that point. I spent years agonizing > and being anal-retentive over "which one is DTE, which is DCE" etc etc > and just said "screw this, I want to BOOT the damn thing!"...and have > never looked back. ;) Most of the time I look of odiities in the interface (many printers put a busy/ready line on pin 11 for soem unknown reason), then use the LED monitor thing to see if it's a DTE or DCE. 99%+ of the time the cable I then wire works first time. > > If you have any sort of MicroVAXen, you should keep a few MMJ adapters > of various flavors around anyway and if you have any sort of random > non-PeeCee computers, you should have a handful of null modems, gender > changers, DE9<->DB25 adapters, etc etc. You will use them all the time, > if you don't already. The things I keep around are : PC/AT (DE9) to DB25 adapter DB25 socket to DB25 socket null modem with the flow control lines looped back -- that is 4-5 and 6-8-20 on each conenctor (not connected between the ends), 2/3 crossed over between the connectors and 7 wired straight through DB25 socket to DB25 socket null modem with the flow control lines crossed over between the ends. That is 2 crossed with 3, 4 corssed with 5, 6 strapepd to 8 on each conenctor and crossed with 20 (from the other conenctor) and 7 wired straight through A universal gender cable. I've not seen this commerically, it's easy to make. It's a couple of feet of 25 way IDC cable with a DB25 plugn and a DB25 socket crimped on near each end (4 conenctors total). Does away with the need for gender changers The LED monitoring adapter I mentioned. An assortemt of conenctors, multicore cable and a soldering iron for the permanent job. I do have a breakout box, adn even a datacomms tester. They are very useful -- when I need them -- but most of the time the above bits get the job done and are quicker. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 11 14:42:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 20:42:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC In-Reply-To: <20120610173623.F32239@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 10, 12 06:02:07 pm Message-ID: > > > > Is that PCJr?=A0 THAT cartridge will do you NO GOOD on the Mindset. > > > =A0C: Obviously if it's not physically compatible. Give me some credit. > > But it is at least cartridge BASIC, don't need to write my own. Shmott,= > no? > > Unfortunately, a "BASIC cartridge" could be for adding BASIC to a > computer, OR could be for supplementing a BASIC that is built-in, much > like BASICA being a supplement to the ROM BASIC, rather than stand-alone. > Of course SOME companies, such as Compaq, renamed their GW-BASIC to > BASICA.COM "for compatability with legacy batch files" IIRC, th IBM PCjr has BASIC in ROM, so the cartridge is quitel ikely to be BASIC extensions, not the full interpretter. > > know why you have to continually insult me. Sheesh. =A0 > > I will stop insulting you as soon as there is any indication that you > already know what we are talking about. (such as that paragraph, or the It is _very_ difficult to judge somebody's knowledge nad experience based on a few postings. Sure you might have been proggraming since the days of the EDSAC, you might be able to solder hup a handful of chips from the juckbox and have everythig nwork first tiem, never lookig nat a databook. Or you might be soembody who is starting out and wants to learn. My view is that it's better to give too mcuh information in the reply than too little, even if I am pointing something out that you've known for 20 years. It is not intended as an insult. And having known 'Grumpy old Fred' fro many years here, I don't think he's going to deliberately isnult somebody asking sensible questions. -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 15:23:26 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 16:23:26 -0400 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: <4FD53EA7.9090005@neurotica.com> References: , <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4FD53EA7.9090005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1BA44B06-C896-490C-A209-BA9CAFA6F6EE@gmail.com> On Jun 10, 2012, at 8:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 06/09/2012 10:23 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >> I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 to the console of a microvax III (3900). >> >> I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable, but there are a few flavors. At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D, however its possible I ned H8575-E. >> >> Someone know which one to purchase? I have the BC16E cable required... > > There are lots of flavors. Though Tony will probably blow a fuse when > reading this suggestion, figuring out the absolute perfectly correct one > is a complete waste of time...Get an MMJ adapter, whichever one you can > find. Plug it in. If it doesn't talk, insert a null modem, and it will > talk. Simple as that. Well, of course, if you want to be a purist about it you can always replace the unwieldy mess with the correct cable later, when people are actually going to *see* it. Getting it running is hardly the time to be a stickler unless it's actually going to damage something. - Dave From fast79ta at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 15:35:31 2012 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 14:35:31 -0600 Subject: Old fiujitsu scanner Message-ID: <003701cd4811$bf44e660$3dceb320$@yahoo.com> I've acquired on old enterprise/small office 11x17 ADF scanner. Came with everything except a cable, and any sort of support. I've tried signing up for the KoFax forums, but seems to be dead. Have to wait for an admin to approve me, and it's been a couple weeks now with no action. Its a fujitsu M3097DE, with a first generation KoFax VRS card in it. The card is a Fujitsu CG01000-440201 (sticker) or kofax 13000125-000 (PCB silkscreen) It also came with an KoFax Adrenaline 650i PCI SCSI Scanner card, which I have it on good authority, was used with the scanner. The card has a HD68 external scsi on it, and the scanner has 3 connections (2 for rs232 control, and video. These are supposedly disabled with the 3rd party card installed), and one for the VRS card (which is DB37). As I understand it, it was a package offered by fujitsu. But, can't find really any info on it at all. Especially, what kind of cable it took. Anyone have any familiarity with such a beasty? It would be great for scanning a lot of my old documentation, because it does two sides at once, 200 dpi, grey scale. Thanks From fast79ta at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 15:35:31 2012 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 14:35:31 -0600 Subject: Old fiujitsu scanner Message-ID: <003701cd4811$bf44e660$3dceb320$@yahoo.com> I've acquired on old enterprise/small office 11x17 ADF scanner. Came with everything except a cable, and any sort of support. I've tried signing up for the KoFax forums, but seems to be dead. Have to wait for an admin to approve me, and it's been a couple weeks now with no action. Its a fujitsu M3097DE, with a first generation KoFax VRS card in it. The card is a Fujitsu CG01000-440201 (sticker) or kofax 13000125-000 (PCB silkscreen) It also came with an KoFax Adrenaline 650i PCI SCSI Scanner card, which I have it on good authority, was used with the scanner. The card has a HD68 external scsi on it, and the scanner has 3 connections (2 for rs232 control, and video. These are supposedly disabled with the 3rd party card installed), and one for the VRS card (which is DB37). As I understand it, it was a package offered by fujitsu. But, can't find really any info on it at all. Especially, what kind of cable it took. Anyone have any familiarity with such a beasty? It would be great for scanning a lot of my old documentation, because it does two sides at once, 200 dpi, grey scale. Thanks From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 16:12:00 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 22:12:00 +0100 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 11 June 2012 17:26, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> What it doesn't go into is all the bad blood between the NeXT, A/UX, and >> Classic OS groups (JK and Sokol were long time Apple Unix guys). > > I shudder to ask the history. I know A/UX didn't make it into the PPC era, > but was an internecine dispute to blame, or just unwillingness to invest the > engineering time? I thought it was the latter. My understanding, in brief, was that A/UX was only ever created to tick the POSIX box on the US military procurement form. I thought it was a bit of a surprise to Apple that it did as well as it did, and I suspect it never made a profit. What is odd to me is that, looking back from the OS X era, A/UX would have been a really obvious successor to classic MacOS, if only it had been ported to from 68K to PPC. But I never spotted it at the time, and nor did Apple. Given all the expensive protracted commercially-suicidal flailing around with Pink, Taligent, Copland and all that, this seems really strange. But there Apple was: it needed a new OS with a degree of MacOS compatibility but with the features its rivals were developing and out-competing it with: pre-emptive multitasking, good fast virtual memory, memory protection, better security, better networking, especially support for industry-standard stuff like TCP/IP. And yet it owned an OS like this, internally-developed, based on Unix but with a MacOS GUI and the ability to run MacOS apps. It just ran on the old chip, not the new one. Instead, there was years of trying to develop something new, or something with IBM, or both, or buying in Be, or buying in NeXT... Now, in the end, no argument, buying NeXT was the right thing to do and a very good move... but looking back it seems really odd that they didn't try A/UX. They even licenced in AIX for some machines but not their own in-house Unix. So, yes, perhaps there was some kind of company politics that made it unacceptable... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jon at jonworld.com Mon Jun 11 16:33:07 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:33:07 -0400 Subject: Old fiujitsu scanner In-Reply-To: <003701cd4811$bf44e660$3dceb320$@yahoo.com> References: <003701cd4811$bf44e660$3dceb320$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Joe wrote: > > I've acquired on old enterprise/small office 11x17 ADF scanner. Came with > everything except a cable, and any sort of support. I've tried signing up > for the KoFax forums, but seems to be dead. Have to wait for an admin to > If it does 68 pin SCSI I wonder if it will do generic TWAIN over the SCSI bus? It may be worth it to plug it together and see? From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 11 16:37:14 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 15:37:14 -0600 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <4FD622B2.20007@bitsavers.org> References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> <4FD622B2.20007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4FD622B2.20007 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > http://www.paulbeard.org/wordpress/2002/08/31/think-different-and-keep-your-o ptions-open/ This URL seems to be unreachable... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 16:38:14 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 14:38:14 -0700 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: References: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > > I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 to the console of a microvax III (3900). > > I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable, but there are a few flavors. ?At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D, however its possible I ned H8575-E. > > Someone know which one to purchase? ?I have the BC16E cable required... > > Kevin > Here are some helpful references: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/padapters.html http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/dec-mmj.html From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jun 11 16:43:49 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:43:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201206112143.RAA16343@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits, which >> would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits). > Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. Those > can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct), No, it doesn't. See Wikipedia's Hamming code page (asking for SECDED redirects to it) for a brief treatment of the subject, or any of many more detailed treatments of coding theory for more. Mouse From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 11 16:52:02 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 14:52:02 -0700 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> <4FD622B2.20007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FD66882.10309@bitsavers.org> On 6/11/12 2:37 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4FD622B2.20007 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > >> http://www.paulbeard.org/wordpress/2002/08/31/think-different-and-keep-your-o > ptions-open/ > > This URL seems to be unreachable... here is the entire entry, from August 31, 2002 think different, and keep your options open Apple Keeps x86 Torch Lit with ?Marklar? Sources said more than a dozen software engineers are tasked to Marklar, and the company?s mainstream Mac OS X team is regularly asked to modify code to address bugs that crop up when compiling the OS for x86. Build numbers keep pace with those of their pre-release PowerPC counterparts; for example, Apple is internally running a complete, x86-compatible version of Jaguar, a k a Mac OS X 10.2, which shipped last week. Wade spotted this one. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 17:01:32 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:01:32 +0100 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> <4FD622B2.20007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 11 June 2012 22:37, Richard wrote: > >> http://www.paulbeard.org/wordpress/2002/08/31/think-different-and-keep-your-o > ptions-open/ > > This URL seems to be unreachable... Works for me. It's short and says: ? A CRANK?S PROGRESS ?THE ART OF WRITING IS THE ART OF DISCOVERING WHAT YOU BELIEVE.?? GUSTAVE FLAUBERT Homeband names I would like to see - ideas, various - 25, more or less - A True Story of hubris and revenge, unlike the HOPA with the white board - When two extremes bump into each other - zeitgeist: what?s on your collective mind - greatest hits think different, and keep your options open Apple Keeps x86 Torch Lit with ?Marklar? [http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,496270,00.asp] Sources said more than a dozen software engineers are tasked to Marklar, and the company?s mainstream Mac OS X team is regularly asked to modify code to address bugs that crop up when compiling the OS for x86. Build numbers keep pace with those of their pre-release PowerPC counterparts; for example, Apple is internally running a complete, x86-compatible version of Jaguar, a.k.a. Mac OS X 10.2, which shipped last week. Wade [http://naveja.net/] spotted this one. Share this: Share This was written by paul. Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 10:38 AM. Filed under the value of X. Bookmark the permalink. Follow comments here with the RSS feed. Both comments and trackbacks are currently closed. ? keeping them honest RedHat == Redmond? ? ? 2012 ADMIN ADMIN ? THANKS, WORDPRESS. ? VERYPLAINTXT THEME BY SCOTT. ? IT'S NICE XHTML & CSS. ? Sadly the link from the title now points to a different story: HP TouchPad Needs 6 to 8 Weeks for Additional Shipments [http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-Wireless/HP-TouchPad-Needs-68-Weeks-for-Additional-Shipments-142584/] -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 17:02:18 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:02:18 +0100 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> <4FD622B2.20007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 11 June 2012 23:01, Liam Proven wrote: > > Sadly the link from the title now points to a different story: Nix that. Found the original: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Apple/Apple-Keeps-x86-Torch-Lit-with-Marklar/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 11 17:02:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 15:02:35 -0700 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Jun 10, 12 06:15:13 pm, Message-ID: <4FD6088B.3801.178C08C@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2012 at 20:21, Tony Duell wrote: > Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. Those > can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct), Not necessarily--they're included in the Hamming distance, so a single error, even in the syndrome bits can be corrected. A 21 bit word for a 16 bit word will detect all single-bit errors but a pure Hamming SECDED would require 22 bits (4 SEC + 1 added parity). However, there exist other codes with SECDED properties--Hsiao codes- -that will allow for SECDED in (21:16). I believe that the popular (72:64) SECDED code is a shortened Hamming code. --Chuck From fast79ta at yahoo.com Mon Jun 11 17:11:56 2012 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 16:11:56 -0600 Subject: Old fiujitsu scanner In-Reply-To: References: <003701cd4811$bf44e660$3dceb320$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008e01cd481f$37ab4650$a701d2f0$@yahoo.com> The card side is HD68 scsi, the scanner end is DB37 (not even centronics 50pin), so I have no idea what the wiring would be in between the two. :-( -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Katz Sent: June-11-12 3:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Old fiujitsu scanner On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Joe wrote: > > I've acquired on old enterprise/small office 11x17 ADF scanner. Came > with everything except a cable, and any sort of support. I've tried > signing up for the KoFax forums, but seems to be dead. Have to wait > for an admin to > If it does 68 pin SCSI I wonder if it will do generic TWAIN over the SCSI bus? It may be worth it to plug it together and see? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 11 17:20:13 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 15:20:13 -0700 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>, , Message-ID: <4FD60CAD.18149.188E740@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2012 at 23:01, Liam Proven wrote: > Sadly the link from the title now points to a different story: > HP TouchPad Needs 6 to 8 Weeks for Additional Shipments > [http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-Wireless/HP-TouchPad-Needs-68-Wee > ks-for-Additional-Shipments-142584/] Comes up for me on: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Apple/Apple-Keeps-x86-Torch-Lit-with- Marklar/ Looks like they just moved it. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jun 11 17:26:59 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 18:26:59 -0400 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port References: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <2A3D81649C8644C9989A910DC0C12CEB@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 5:38 PM Subject: Re: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port > On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Kevin Reynolds > wrote: >> >> I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 >> to the console of a microvax III (3900). >> >> I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable, but there are a few flavors. >> At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D, however >> its possible I ned H8575-E. >> >> Someone know which one to purchase? I have the BC16E cable required... >> >> Kevin >> > > Here are some helpful references: > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/padapters.html > http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/dec-mmj.html > Nice links, I have one of the H8571-HP adapters which is listed. What about the RJ45 ethernet to MJJ adapters (I have one Amphenol 482560001)? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 11 17:30:10 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 15:30:10 -0700 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> On 6/11/12 2:12 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > What is odd to me is that, looking back from the OS X era, A/UX would > have been a really obvious successor to classic MacOS, if only it had > been ported to from 68K to PPC. But I never spotted it at the time, > and nor did Apple. Given all the expensive protracted > commercially-suicidal flailing around with Pink, Taligent, Copland and > all that, this seems really strange. > The switch from Carbon to Cocoa was much more significant than the change to the underlying OS. Pink, et. al. never got any traction because of the demand to keep old apps and APIs working. OS X accelerated the rate at which old software was abandoned for something new and shiny. This was not even considered acceptable before Jobs came back. A ported A/UX would have essentially looked like Classic, with a lot of hardware driver incompatibilities and not a whole lot of perceivable end-user improvements. Making the OS switch with a substantially different GUI offered something to users in return for a lot of backwards incompatibilities. The complete disinterest inside of Apple for anything having to do with Mach or Unix was something I witnessed through all my time there before 1997. There were two versions of Mach (68K done in by ATG Cambridge and later Morin's MacMach) that were around. These was considered as pretty insignificant distractions from the work of getting the next set of features or a new CPU supported into OS(7,8,9). Pink isolated themselves from the rest of Apple software and put the nails solidly into their own coffins. The A/UX group were always outsiders. They lived off on Bubb Road, and eventually moved to DeAnza 3 as part of the Workgroup Server (ie. Shiner) folks in the mid-90's. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 18:19:28 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 00:19:28 +0100 Subject: Old fiujitsu scanner In-Reply-To: <003701cd4811$bf44e660$3dceb320$@yahoo.com> References: <003701cd4811$bf44e660$3dceb320$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FD67D00.2090908@gmail.com> On 11/06/2012 21:35, Joe wrote: > I've acquired on old enterprise/small office 11x17 ADF scanner. Came with > everything except a cable, and any sort of support. I've tried signing up > for the KoFax forums, but seems to be dead. Have to wait for an admin to > approve me, and it's been a couple weeks now with no action. > > Its a fujitsu M3097DE, with a first generation KoFax VRS card in it. The > card is a Fujitsu CG01000-440201 (sticker) or kofax 13000125-000 (PCB > silkscreen) > > It also came with an KoFax Adrenaline 650i PCI SCSI Scanner card, which I > have it on good authority, was used with the scanner. > > The card has a HD68 external scsi on it, and the scanner has 3 connections > (2 for rs232 control, and video. These are supposedly disabled with the 3rd > party card installed), and one for the VRS card (which is DB37). > > As I understand it, it was a package offered by fujitsu. But, can't find > really any info on it at all. Especially, what kind of cable it took. > > Anyone have any familiarity with such a beasty? It would be great for > scanning a lot of my old documentation, because it does two sides at once, > 200 dpi, grey scale. > > Thanks > We use similar stuff to these where I work. Drop me an e-mail off list and I'll see if I can find any docs... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 19:04:27 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:04:27 -0700 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: <2A3D81649C8644C9989A910DC0C12CEB@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <2A3D81649C8644C9989A910DC0C12CEB@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On Jun 11, 2012 3:30 PM, "TeoZ" wrote: > > Nice links, I have one of the H8571-HP adapters which is listed. What about the RJ45 ethernet to MJJ adapters (I have one Amphenol 482560001)? > Is that a coupler that you plug an MMJ cable plug in one end an an RJ45 cable plug in the other? From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 19:21:42 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 01:21:42 +0100 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 11 June 2012 23:30, Al Kossow wrote: > > The switch from Carbon to Cocoa was much more significant than the change > to the underlying OS. Pink, et. al. never got any traction because of the > demand to keep old apps and APIs working. OS X accelerated the rate at > which old software was abandoned for something new and shiny. This was not > even considered acceptable before Jobs came back. A ported A/UX would have > essentially looked like Classic, with a lot of hardware driver > incompatibilities > and not a whole lot of perceivable end-user improvements. Making the OS > switch with a substantially different GUI offered something to users in > return for a lot of backwards incompatibilities. > > The complete disinterest inside of Apple for anything having to do with > Mach or Unix was something I witnessed through all my time there before > 1997. There were two versions of Mach (68K done in by ATG Cambridge and > later Morin's MacMach) that were around. These was considered as pretty > insignificant distractions from the work of getting the next set of features > or a new CPU supported into OS(7,8,9). Pink isolated themselves from the > rest of Apple software and put the nails solidly into their own coffins. > > The A/UX group were always outsiders. They lived off on > Bubb Road, and eventually moved to DeAnza 3 as part of the Workgroup Server > (ie. Shiner) folks in the mid-90's. TFTI - interesting stuff. But, not wishing to disagree, merely seeking clarification here... I have never run A/UX. If I can find the money to pay Tony D to fix my SE/30 and upgrade it, I want to try it, but I don't think that's likely in the near future. So I am speaking from no practical experience here, but... AIUI, it /did/ offer some compatibility with mainstream Mac apps. I think I have seen screenshots of it running MS Word, for instance. How good that compatibility was, I don't know. But surely, the same reasons that made it feasible to develop and maintain for 7 years and 3 major versions would have still applied on PowerPC, no? It seems to me that there must be some reason why it didn't happen, as with hindsight, it just seems a very obvious move. Apple knew it needed a more modern, real multitasking OS to rival Win9x and NT, and it needed to be to some degree MacOS-compatible - and yet, it had one, sitting there. It just seems incomprehensibly strange. I mean, I think that what eventually happened was right and good. The NeXT deal got Jobs back, OS X had a fresh new look, it is for all its sins a very advanced Unix, and it has some of the best dev tools there were. All these were important. Perhaps it would never have happened if Apple had made A/UX 4 for PPC its new OS, and as a result, Apple would be a fading memory now. So in a way, it's a good thing it /didn't/ happen. But the reason sure as hell was not foresight! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 11 19:30:47 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:30:47 -0700 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <4147706669824788312@unknownmsgid> References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> <4147706669824788312@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: At 5:23 PM +0100 6/11/12, Mark Benson wrote: >On 11 Jun 2012, at 17:00, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >> One thing that I find suspicious about this is that the first few >>Developers releases for Mac OS X ran on Intel-based systems. Apple >>had to port it to PPC, they didn't have to port to Intel, as it >>already ran on Intel. I'd be more inclined to believe that the PPC >>processor was never intended to be the long term target for Mac OS >>X, than I am to believe that at some point it didn't run on Intel. > >Apple did have to port the original Mach Kernel-based OS to PPC >because it was originally OPENSTEP which ran on PA-RISC, SPARC, 680x0 >and Intel. The had to port more than just the Mach Microkernel. I forget at which point they changed the UNIX layer to be based on FreeBSD. As has been pointed out, the unfortunately chose to port the Net Info abomination. >I *don't* recall developers releases OS X that ran on Intel, but I >wasn't a registered student developer at the time, I joined ADC in >2000. I have OS X Rhapsody PR1 & 2 and those are both Mac PPC. I don't >have anything earlier but it probably isn't 'in the wild' anywhere I >could have obtained it. I ceased to be a registered developer around 2001/2002 time frame (I joined in '95), as I'd gotten married and had more important things to spend my money on. :-) Rather than trying to cast my mind back too far, here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhapsody_%28operating_system%29 The article seems to fail to mention "Prelude to Rhapsody", which was sent out to developers, and was basically OPENSTEP 4.2. Many of the Mac developers of that time, also got ahold of NeXT hardware. I used a Pentium 133Mhz system I built specifically to run Prelude. IIRC, while I've owned a copy of every version of Mac OS X except 10.7, I didn't actually start using it until just before 10.3 was released. At that time I was on an original G4/450AGP (2nd one sold in this area, and it came with a special version of System 8.6 rather than Mac OS 9). I had to replace the video card to get Mac OS X to be usable on that system. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 11 19:42:13 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 20:42:13 -0400 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <3887B046-79D1-4DD0-BFED-77F39478F942@gmail.com> References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com> <8400481012859501786@unknownmsgid> <3887B046-79D1-4DD0-BFED-77F39478F942@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FD69065.4030200@neurotica.com> On 06/11/2012 12:35 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> I love the South Park reference, but I'm wondering why they kept NetInfo >>> around for so many years and only recently ditched it. >> >> That was inheritance from NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP and you're right, it >> didn't really disappear until 10.4 or 10.5 IIRC. It was ugly, it was >> even worse in OPENSTEP! > > As has been discussed somewhat recently on this list, I recall that the end of NetInfo coincided with the departure of Tevanian. Draw your own conclusions. He was always its most outspoken proponent, in everything I ever saw in the technical media. Actually, I think he was its ONLY proponent. I hated it from the NeXTSTEP days; it was a terrible idea then too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 11 20:08:02 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 21:08:02 -0400 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FD69672.1090105@neurotica.com> On 06/11/2012 03:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 06/09/2012 10:23 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >>> I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 to the console of a microvax III (3900). >>> >>> I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable, but there are a few flavors. At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D, however its possible I ned H8575-E. >>> >>> Someone know which one to purchase? I have the BC16E cable required... >> >> There are lots of flavors. Though Tony will probably blow a fuse when >> reading this suggestion, figuring out the absolute perfectly correct one > > No, I won't, and you won't blow a (real) fuse, or an IC, or anythjing if > you try it. One good thign abotu RS232 is that it is designed to > withstand having signals shorted or mis-connected. > >> is a complete waste of time...Get an MMJ adapter, whichever one you can >> find. Plug it in. If it doesn't talk, insert a null modem, and it will >> talk. Simple as that. > > I wouldn't quite do that. I'd grab one of thos little DB25-DB25 adapters > with LEDs to monitor the most important signals. Plug that into the > dapater first (with the adaptor conencted to the (powered-up) Microvax) > and see which line (2 or 3) it's transmitting on. One will be driven, the > otehr won't be. Then if it's driving pin 2, you need a null-modem. > > I have solved many RS232 problems with little more than that. Yes! That's exactly what I do, but I don't recommend it anymore because the response is usually "I don't have one of those things with LEDs and they're so EXXPEEENNSSIIVEE!!" (they're like ten bucks...cheapasses) But yes, that works perfectly. Something needs to be driving TxD, and something needs to be driving RxD. Which is which, and what state they're in, is unimportant if the goal is to get it talking. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jun 11 20:16:17 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 21:16:17 -0400 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port References: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <2A3D81649C8644C9989A910DC0C12CEB@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <6A8CB411B742460281B9E7D97986B351@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 8:04 PM Subject: Re: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port > On Jun 11, 2012 3:30 PM, "TeoZ" wrote: >> >> Nice links, I have one of the H8571-HP adapters which is listed. What > about the RJ45 ethernet to MJJ adapters (I have one Amphenol 482560001)? >> > > Is that a coupler that you plug an MMJ cable plug in one end an an RJ45 > cable plug in the other? It has a female socket for the MMJ plug on one end and a male RJ45 plug molded into the other end. DEC and Digital Equipment Mfg Part Number 482560001 Product Description Part Number: 482560001 New, Used, Refurbished, and Repair of AMPHENOL RJ45-M TO MMJ-F ADAPT. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 11 20:33:38 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 18:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Jun 11, 12 03:30:10 pm" Message-ID: <201206120133.q5C1XcgK14811362@floodgap.com> > The A/UX group were always outsiders. They lived off on > Bubb Road, and eventually moved to DeAnza 3 as part of the Workgroup Server > (ie. Shiner) folks in the mid-90's. I didn't realize the Shiner guys came from the A/UX group, though it makes sense a little. Still, I assume AIX was basically handed to them and it was just a matter of doing the port for the hardware -- or was this part of the earlier NetWare incarnation? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- require "std_disclaimer.pl"; ----------------------------------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 11 21:12:36 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 19:12:36 -0700 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> On 6/11/12 5:21 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > But surely, the same reasons that made it feasible to develop and > maintain for 7 years and 3 major versions would have still applied on > PowerPC, no? > Well, there was the problem of no toolchain for PowerPC. That wasn't a problem if they switched to AIX. A/UX was also based on Unisoft System V, which may have had licensing problems in volume, but I have no real knowledge of that. The only compiler people Apple had at the time were in the MPW group, and they would have had their hands full with MacOS tools which used a completely different object format (PEF). > It seems to me that there must be some reason why it didn't happen, as > with hindsight, it just seems a very obvious move. Apple knew it > needed a more modern, real multitasking OS to rival Win9x and NT, and > it needed to be to some degree MacOS-compatible - and yet, it had one, > sitting there. > > It just seems incomprehensibly strange. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_%28operating_system%29 It is very difficult to explain what was going on if you weren't in the middle of it, but that Wikipedia article gives you a pretty good idea of how dysfunctional and out of control Apple was in the 90's. Remember, this is the same company that let someone develop "Graphing Calculator" and let them keep their office when they didn't even WORK for Apple any more. Note that there is NO mention of A/UX or Unix anywhere in there. As far as anyone was concerned, Unix didn't exist. If it was brought up as an alternative, it was immediately dismissed as not useful as a basis for the Mac OS, either because of size, or perceived performance. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jun 11 22:13:47 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201206120313.XAA18854@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I do have a breakout box, adn even a datacomms tester. They are very > useful -- when I need them -- but most of the time the above bits get > the job done and are quicker. There have even been times when I've made serial connections work with bits of spare wire shoved into DB25S and DE9S connectors. For that you need gender benders at most. :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From scott.m.18 at atsgate.com Mon Jun 11 22:50:15 2012 From: scott.m.18 at atsgate.com (Scott M) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 21:50:15 -0600 Subject: A Teletype Model 43 and a 1938 Army dual teletype with paper tapes available. Message-ID: <009e01cd484e$7a0c0730$6e241590$@m.18@atsgate.com> I was at a storage unit this evening, picking up yet another couple of free DEC machines. The guy unloading the machines also had a couple of teletypes. One was a pretty standard Model 43 (all plastic case). It had a 300 baud interface, not serial port. He said he knows it works because he ran it to a computer at 300 baud that then converted the signal to serial so that it could communicate "normally". He said the 300 baud interface makes it more of a pain, but more cool at the same time. He is looking to unload it right away. The other teletype was all metal, built into a small table, had an Army Corps label, a tape read/writer?, a box of blank "new" paper tapes on spools about 5/8 inch wide. Also a second auxiliary? teletype unit was built into a very small adjacent table. This one had several "new" rolls of paper approx 12 inches wide. The secondary teletype had keys too, but I am thinking the primary with the paper tape was used for input and the secondary was used for output. The guy said it was used with the MARS system. There was an interface box too, probably to connect to a ham radio, but the radio was not present. The guy said he got it from a retired Air Force General who had kept it as a souvenir. He said he has all the original manuals that go with it at home. He said it is complete and reportedly working. The only thing wrong was some of the plastic covers on the individual keyboard keys had deteriorated and were loose. However considering the year, 1938, it was in remarkably good shape. The dry Colorado air is pretty easy on most equipment, and this was yet another example of that. He said cannot ship it because it is too heavy, but I know that places like "The UPS Store" can pickup, package, and ship items like this. There is a UPS Store nearby that might be able to do the job. (I had a 100+ lb IBM machine shipped this way a few years ago for about $200). Anyway, the guy is Matt. I am not going to post his email address, but if you want to contact him, email me and I will forward your email to him. I can also give you contact info for the nearby UPS Store. Matt took some pictures with his smartphone for me, and once he emails those, I will put them on a website. Scott From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 11 23:19:01 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 21:19:01 -0700 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 7:12 PM -0700 6/11/12, Al Kossow wrote: >Note that there is NO mention of A/UX or Unix anywhere in there. As far >as anyone was concerned, Unix didn't exist. If it was brought up as an >alternative, it was immediately dismissed as not useful as a basis for >the Mac OS, either because of size, or perceived performance. If size and performance could have been a consideration, I have to wonder if they were influenced by the B2 compliant version of A/UX. It's a miracle that it didn't make me hate UNIX as it was the first UNIX variant I used (it did make me hate ACL's). It's probably a good thing that a couple days later I downloaded Linux 0.12 to try on my 486/33. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From iamcamiel at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 23:32:20 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 06:32:20 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <4FD6088B.3801.178C08C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com> <4FD6088B.3801.178C08C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. Those >> can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct), > > Not necessarily--they're included in the Hamming distance, so a > single error, even in the syndrome bits can be corrected. > > A 21 bit word for a 16 bit word will detect all single-bit errors but > a pure Hamming SECDED would require 22 bits (4 SEC + 1 added parity). > > ?However, there exist other codes with SECDED properties--Hsiao codes- > -that will allow for SECDED in (21:16). ? ?I believe that the popular > (72:64) SECDED code is a shortened Hamming code. Time to get the terminology and math straight. Please forgive me if I sound pedantic: (31,26) (26 data bits + 5 parity bits) is a Hamming code. We only need 16 data bits, so we use (21,16), which is called a truncated Hamming code. It's capable of single-bit error correction, but not capable of double-bit error detection (or, more precisely, a double-bit error is seen as an error in a third bit, which then gets "corrected", so a double-bit error gets turned into a triple-bit error!). By adding an extra parity bit to the Hamming code, you get an extended truncated Hamming code (22,16). Extended Hamming is a SECDED code. Hsiao code is another SECDED code. It uses the same number of bits as an extended truncated Hamming code, but is easier to implement in silicon. A (72,64) SECDED code could be extended truncated Hamming or Hsiao. SECDED can not be done with less bits (unless you increase the word size of course). Here's an example of a (21,16) truncated Hamming code: 0 000 1111010 11010 --------------------- 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 - p1 =00 00 11 10 10 - p2 = 1000 1010 10 - p3 = 11111010 - p4 = 111010 - p5 ---------------=----- 100100011111010111010 Cheers, Camiel From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Jun 11 23:50:07 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 06:50:07 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com> <4FD6088B.3801.178C08C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FD6CA7F.5010308@bluewin.ch> It might have a sound technical reason to provide error-correcting RAM, but only Philips would ignore the financial consequences of having to provide an extra 30% of memory for that functionality. Jos From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Jun 12 00:39:04 2012 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 07:39:04 +0200 Subject: P800 boards References: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com> <4FD6088B.3801.178C08C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hello P800 people :-) Came to think of that I have a CPU board originating from a PTS 6800. It might well be of use for p800*s. The 12NC number is 5111-199-72373. It also says on the label : AMX 32:FA11665 0183. O n the board is a core assembly 3256977-02, config 32Kx16, coretype 1380-10d, s/n 11976 We do have a P6800 in store at the danish IT museum, but I dont think we'll ever get it running again, so I'm willing to part with the board for the cost of P&P /nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Camiel Vanderhoeven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 6:32 AM Subject: Re: P800 boards On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. Those >> can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct), > > Not necessarily--they're included in the Hamming distance, so a > single error, even in the syndrome bits can be corrected. > > A 21 bit word for a 16 bit word will detect all single-bit errors but > a pure Hamming SECDED would require 22 bits (4 SEC + 1 added parity). > > However, there exist other codes with SECDED properties--Hsiao codes- > -that will allow for SECDED in (21:16). I believe that the popular > (72:64) SECDED code is a shortened Hamming code. Time to get the terminology and math straight. Please forgive me if I sound pedantic: (31,26) (26 data bits + 5 parity bits) is a Hamming code. We only need 16 data bits, so we use (21,16), which is called a truncated Hamming code. It's capable of single-bit error correction, but not capable of double-bit error detection (or, more precisely, a double-bit error is seen as an error in a third bit, which then gets "corrected", so a double-bit error gets turned into a triple-bit error!). By adding an extra parity bit to the Hamming code, you get an extended truncated Hamming code (22,16). Extended Hamming is a SECDED code. Hsiao code is another SECDED code. It uses the same number of bits as an extended truncated Hamming code, but is easier to implement in silicon. A (72,64) SECDED code could be extended truncated Hamming or Hsiao. SECDED can not be done with less bits (unless you increase the word size of course). Here's an example of a (21,16) truncated Hamming code: 0 000 1111010 11010 --------------------- 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 - p1 =00 00 11 10 10 - p2 = 1000 1010 10 - p3 = 11111010 - p4 = 111010 - p5 ---------------=----- 100100011111010111010 Cheers, Camiel -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 386 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Mon Jun 11 12:46:34 2012 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 18:46:34 +0100 Subject: Preferably Data General fan-fold paper tape Message-ID: I can't remember if I asked this before, but I am very keen to get such tape(s). Anyone out there got some? Will pay money (up to a point). Many thanks. || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Mon Jun 11 18:30:53 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 00:30:53 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Old fiujitsu scanner Message-ID: <01OGKUAVYGGI000KH9@beyondthepale.ie> > >I've acquired on old enterprise/small office 11x17 ADF scanner. Came with >everything except a cable, and any sort of support. I've tried signing up >for the KoFax forums, but seems to be dead. Have to wait for an admin to >approve me, and it's been a couple weeks now with no action. > >Its a fujitsu M3097DE, with a first generation KoFax VRS card in it. The >card is a Fujitsu CG01000-440201 (sticker) or kofax 13000125-000 (PCB >silkscreen) > The rather old version of the SANE scanner package I've got here (1.0.18) makes mention of the Fujitsu M3097DE. I would suggest asking for help on the sane-devel mailing list which despite it's name, is also for general users. I haven't been there for a while but last time I was, there was lots of lively discussion. http://www.sane-project.org/ Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jimpdavis at gorge.net Mon Jun 11 23:00:54 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 21:00:54 -0700 Subject: A Teletype Model 43 and a 1938 Army dual teletype with paper tapes available. In-Reply-To: <4fd6bd46.0e6b650a.4e9d.ffffe695SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4fd6bd46.0e6b650a.4e9d.ffffe695SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4FD6BEF6.7040603@gorge.net> Oh no! Not another baud .vs.BPS.vs.data rate gentleman's argument! But, What is a 300 Baud interface? Current loop maybe? jim Scott M wrote: > I was at a storage unit this evening, picking up yet another couple of > free DEC machines. The guy unloading the machines also had a couple of > teletypes. One was a pretty standard Model 43 (all plastic case). > It had a 300 baud interface, not serial port. He said he knows it works > because he ran it to a computer at 300 baud that then converted the > signal to serial so that it could communicate "normally". He said the > 300 baud interface makes it more of a pain, but more cool at the same > time. He is looking to unload it right away. The other teletype was > all metal, built into a small table, had an Army Corps label, a tape > read/writer?, a box of blank "new" paper tapes on spools about 5/8 inch > wide. Also a second auxiliary? teletype unit was built into a very > small adjacent table. This one had several "new" rolls of paper approx > 12 inches wide. The secondary teletype had keys too, but I am thinking > the primary with the paper tape was used for input and the secondary > was used for output. The guy said it was used with the MARS system. > There was an interface box too, probably to connect to a ham radio, > but the radio was not present. The guy said he got it from a retired > Air Force General who had kept it as a souvenir. He said he has all the > original manuals that go with it at home. He said it is complete and > reportedly working. The only thing wrong was some of the plastic covers > on the individual keyboard keys had deteriorated and were loose. > However considering the year, 1938, it was in remarkably good shape. > The dry Colorado air is pretty easy on most equipment, and this was > yet another example of that. > He said cannot ship it because it is too heavy, but I know that places > like "The UPS Store" can pickup, package, and ship items like this. > There is a UPS Store nearby that might be able to do the job. (I had > a 100+ lb IBM machine shipped this way a few years ago for about $200). > Anyway, the guy is Matt. I am not going to post his email address, but > if you want to contact him, email me and I will forward your email to > him. I can also give you contact info for the nearby UPS Store. Matt > took some pictures with his smartphone for me, and once he emails those, > I will put them on a website. > > Scott > > > > > From brian at polibyte.com Mon Jun 11 23:39:53 2012 From: brian at polibyte.com (Brian Pitts) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 00:39:53 -0400 Subject: Available VAX Message-ID: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> Down in Macon, GA my dad has a DEC that we would like to send to a good home. He purchased this several years ago from a man in north Georgia who said it spend the 1990s answering the phone at a utility company. My dad kept it in his classroom while he was a high school technology teacher, but now that he's no longer teaching it's gathering dust on his carport. There's a VAXstation 3, DECvoice unit, two hard drives, and a tape drive in an enclosure on wheels. There's also a VT420 terminal. You'd need a truck, ramp, and at least two strong people to load and unload this. You can see some pictures of the equipment at http://www.flickr.com/photos/puerexmachina/sets/72157622981044137/ Please pass this on to anyone you think might be interested! -- All the best, Brian Pitts From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 12 01:09:20 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:09:20 -0700 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com>, <4FD6088B.3801.178C08C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4FD67AA0.30623.336C219@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jun 2012 at 6:32, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Time to get the terminology and math straight. Please forgive me if I > sound pedantic: Your comments were welcome--my post contents were colored by the fog of time. I've since gone back and read Hsiao's 1970 paper and understand things a bit better. I suppose to be complete, one could also mention other codes that have been devised since Hsiao and their benefits and liabilities. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 02:37:34 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 02:37:34 -0500 Subject: Available VAX In-Reply-To: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> Message-ID: funny that its got a crtc lable on it from canada lol On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 11:39 PM, Brian Pitts wrote: > Down in Macon, GA my dad has a DEC that we would like to send to a good > home. He purchased this several years ago from a man in north > Georgia who said it spend the 1990s answering the phone at a utility > company. My dad kept it in his classroom while he was a high school > technology teacher, but now that he's no longer teaching it's gathering > dust on his carport. > > There's a VAXstation 3, DECvoice unit, two hard drives, and a tape drive > in an enclosure on wheels. There's also a VT420 terminal. You'd need a > truck, ramp, and at least two strong people to load and unload this. > > You can see some pictures of the equipment at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/puerexmachina/sets/72157622981044137/ > > Please pass this on to anyone you think might be interested! > > -- > All the best, > Brian Pitts > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 05:19:25 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 07:19:25 -0300 Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> Message-ID: <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook> Let's party!!! I got an Apple //c!!! Woohoo! :oD Now I just need to find an internal expansion board... ...Or create it :oD Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 09:50:58 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 07:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD In-Reply-To: <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook> References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> talk about markeing. Apple had a small brochure with a girl on the cover, yellow sweatshirt and hat (covering most of her face) holding it against her stomach. I'm not saying it's that that made me always want one (and ironically I had a friend who needed "help" w/computers and asked me to come over and "set it all up", never got around to it). But their stylish presentation of their computers in general likely added something to their appeal. ?Or maybe the darned thing just looked nice! :) The earlier ][s never did anything for me. Of course you were a lot better in terms of expandability w/a ][e. You could pick the ][c up by the handle though. ?Nice machin. Congratulations. I don't know how to say that in spanish though, sorry. tee hee ? Let's party!!! I got an Apple //c!!! Woohoo! :oD ? ? ? Now I just need to find an internal expansion board... ? ? ? ...Or create it :oD ? Greetings from Brazil ? Alexandre Souza ? --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 09:58:14 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 07:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC In-Reply-To: References: <20120610173623.F32239@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 10, 12 06:02:07 pm Message-ID: <1339513094.442.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> IIRC, th IBM PCjr has BASIC in ROM, so the cartridge is quitel ikely to be BASIC extensions, not the full interpretter. C: when I came to my senses, I realize this also. I don't know what made me believe the Peanut didn't have a basic BASIC is rom is a matter for speculation. Perhaps a cosmic ray. It is _very_ difficult to judge somebody's knowledge nad experience based on a few postings. C: a few posting over 8 or 9 years? ?And having known 'Grumpy old Fred' fro many years here, I don't think he's going to deliberately isnult somebody asking sensible questions. C: Tell me hurt feelings that. They're not buying it :( From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 12 10:01:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:01:21 -0400 Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD In-Reply-To: <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook> <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FD759C1.1070800@neurotica.com> On 06/12/2012 10:50 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > talk about markeing. Apple had a small brochure with a girl on the cover, yellow sweatshirt and hat (covering most of her face) holding it against her stomach. I'm not saying it's that that made me always want one (and ironically I had a friend who needed "help" w/computers and asked me to come over and "set it all up", never got around to it). But their stylish presentation of their computers in general likely added something to their appeal. > Or maybe the darned thing just looked nice! :) The earlier ][s never did anything for me. Of course you were a lot better in terms of expandability w/a ][e. You could pick the ][c up by the handle though. > > Nice machin. Congratulations. I don't know how to say that in spanish though, sorry. tee hee Good heavens, show some respect. Portuguese. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 10:05:13 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:05:13 +0100 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12 June 2012 03:12, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/11/12 5:21 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> But surely, the same reasons that made it feasible to develop and >> maintain for 7 years and 3 major versions would have still applied on >> PowerPC, no? > > Well, there was the problem of no toolchain for PowerPC. That wasn't > a problem if they switched to AIX. A/UX was also based on Unisoft System > V, which may have had licensing problems in volume, but I have no real > knowledge of that. The only compiler people Apple had at the time were in > the MPW group, and they would have had their hands full with MacOS tools > which used a completely different object format (PEF). Ah, good point. I didn't know that. Would GCC have been an option back then? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_%28operating_system%29 > > It is very difficult to explain what was going on if you weren't in the > middle of it, but that Wikipedia article gives you a pretty good idea of > how dysfunctional and out of control Apple was in the 90's. Remember, > this is the same company that let someone develop "Graphing Calculator" > and let them keep their office when they didn't even WORK for Apple any > more. Oddly, I just stumbled across & reread the history of that last night! > Note that there is NO mention of A/UX or Unix anywhere in there. As far > as anyone was concerned, Unix didn't exist. If it was brought up as an > alternative, it was immediately dismissed as not useful as a basis for > the Mac OS, either because of size, or perceived performance. Yes indeed. I remember watching all this going on closely at the time. And yet, there it was, still alive in another department at Apple. Very very odd. It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The list is long... * Newton * OpenDoc * OpenTransport * GameSprockets * Pippin * CyberDog * Sherlock * Copland, Gershwin, etc. * A/UX A lot of these were killed by the NeXT deal. And yet, what has resulted is really astonishingly good... So I guess in the end it was all worth it. Even if the new Apple Inc doesn't have much to do with the old Apple Computer Inc. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 10:08:40 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:08:40 -0400 Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD In-Reply-To: <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook> <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jun 12, 2012, at 10:50 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Nice machin. Congratulations. I don't know how to say that in spanish though, sorry. tee hee You'd be out of luck anyway; Brazil speaks Portuguese (though I'm sure there are plenty of Spanish speakers as well). - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 12 10:20:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:20:04 -0400 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> On 06/12/2012 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The > list is long... > * Newton > * OpenTransport I don't know all of their cutesy little project names, but these two at least didn't exactly fizzle. Yes, they were discontinued eventually, but not before being in pretty popular use. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 10:34:02 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:34:02 -0300 Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook> <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0ba101cd48b0$f41da580$6400a8c0@tababook> >Nice machin. Congratulations. I don't know how to say that in spanish >though, sorry. tee hee Eh...Brazilians speak portuguese, and not spanish... :o) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 10:37:06 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:37:06 -0400 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 06/12/2012 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The >> list is long... >> * Newton >> * OpenTransport > > ?I don't know all of their cutesy little project names, but these two > at least didn't exactly fizzle. ?Yes, they were discontinued eventually, > but not before being in pretty popular use. The Newton was certainly big after Gary Trudeau made fun of his in "Doonesbury" for its sometimes-quirky handwriting recognition. Apple may have killed the product, but tens of millions, at least, knew something about it through the comics. (cf. http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/commentary/cultofmac/2002/08/54580 ) -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 10:37:38 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:37:38 +0100 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 12 June 2012 16:20, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 06/12/2012 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The >> list is long... >> * Newton >> * OpenTransport > > ?I don't know all of their cutesy little project names, but these two > at least didn't exactly fizzle. ?Yes, they were discontinued eventually, > but not before being in pretty popular use. True. Ultimately killed off, though. Indeed about the only Apple technologies that persist in Mac OS X are QuickTime and HFS+. I think it's fair to say /everything/ else is gone now; a few backwards-compatibility traces remain. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 10:45:08 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:45:08 -0400 Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD In-Reply-To: <0ba101cd48b0$f41da580$6400a8c0@tababook> References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook> <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <0ba101cd48b0$f41da580$6400a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Nice machin. Congratulations. I don't know how to say that in spanish >> though, sorry. tee hee > > > ? Eh...Brazilians speak portuguese, and not spanish... :o) So I say "parab?ns!" -ethan From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 10:51:58 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 08:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD In-Reply-To: <0ba101cd48b0$f41da580$6400a8c0@tababook> References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook> <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <0ba101cd48b0$f41da580$6400a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <1339516318.51343.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > Nice machin. Congratulations. I don't know how to say that in spanish though, sorry. tee hee ? Eh...Brazilians speak portuguese, and not spanish... :o) ?I wouldn't know. Despite the 1 x 10^6 times I've been told. But gracias anyway. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 12 10:51:55 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 08:51:55 -0700 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FD7659B.2050809@bitsavers.org> On 6/12/12 8:37 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The Newton was certainly big after Gary Trudeau made fun of his in > "Doonesbury" for its sometimes-quirky handwriting recognition. > > Apple may have killed the product, but tens of millions, at least, > knew something about it through the comics. > few people know that Apple kept working on handwriting recongition into the 21st century http://www.beanblossom.in.us/larryy/anhr.html From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 12 10:53:04 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:53:04 -0600 Subject: A Teletype Model 43 and a 1938 Army dual teletype with paper tapes available. In-Reply-To: <4FD6BEF6.7040603@gorge.net> References: <4fd6bd46.0e6b650a.4e9d.ffffe695SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> <4FD6BEF6.7040603@gorge.net> Message-ID: In article <4FD6BEF6.7040603 at gorge.net>, jimpdavis writes: > But, What is a 300 Baud interface? Current loop maybe? The 43 could be configured with an internal 300 baud modem instead of a serial interface. I believe the serial interface was the expected typical configuration, but you could get either the modem or a current loop interface. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 12 10:54:24 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 08:54:24 -0700 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 4:37 PM +0100 6/12/12, Liam Proven wrote: >True. Ultimately killed off, though. > >Indeed about the only Apple technologies that persist in Mac OS X are >QuickTime and HFS+. I think it's fair to say /everything/ else is gone >now; a few backwards-compatibility traces remain. I rather wish they'd kill of HFS+, weren't there rumors of moving to ZFS a few years back? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 12 10:57:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:57:58 -0400 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FD76706.5010603@neurotica.com> On 06/12/2012 11:37 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 12 June 2012 16:20, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 06/12/2012 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The >>> list is long... >>> * Newton >>> * OpenTransport >> >> I don't know all of their cutesy little project names, but these two >> at least didn't exactly fizzle. Yes, they were discontinued eventually, >> but not before being in pretty popular use. > > True. Ultimately killed off, though. Sure, like everything else, though. How long does something have to last as a product to be considered "successful"? > Indeed about the only Apple technologies that persist in Mac OS X are > QuickTime and HFS+. I think it's fair to say /everything/ else is gone > now; a few backwards-compatibility traces remain. Now I have to admit that it's been a long time since I've slept, but this is confusing to me. There's TONS of Apple code in OS X and iOS that could arguably be termed "Apple technologies". What, exactly, are you talking about here? Do you mean "old" "Apple technologies", like pre-OS X stuff? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 11:00:56 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 13:00:56 -0300 Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook> <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <0ba101cd48b0$f41da580$6400a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <0ca101cd48b4$bb0fcb20$6400a8c0@tababook> >> Eh...Brazilians speak portuguese, and not spanish... :o) > > So I say "parab?ns!" Obrigado, Ethan! :o) BTW: Brazilian residents of this list (Jecel et al), what about a meeting in SP? :oD From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 11:26:53 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BASIC rom compatibility Message-ID: <1339518413.8747.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> assuming an empty socket (IBM mobos typically have empty sockets), chances are if you dropped IBM roms into a clone mobo, while it may not boot into BASIC in the absence of a floppy or hard drive, would it work if you jumped to so and so? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 12 11:29:48 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:29:48 -0700 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FD76E7C.7090203@bitsavers.org> On 6/12/12 8:37 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Indeed about the only Apple technologies that persist in Mac OS X are > QuickTime and HFS+. There is still a lot buried under the hood. Ken Turkowski's code for icon zoom in the dock comes to mind. They keychain is another one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keychain_%28Mac_OS%29 which is the only thing that survived from the titanic Apple Mail/PowerTalk project. From jon at jonworld.com Tue Jun 12 11:29:55 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:29:55 -0400 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I rather wish they'd kill of HFS+, weren't there rumors of moving to ZFS a > few years back? > > ZFS in OSX died due to SUNW->ORCL licensing changes, IIRC. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 12 08:06:53 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 06:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... Message-ID: Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards. Pretty slick: http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 11:33:47 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:33:47 -0400 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <19D963E0-E694-4CBB-B08C-4DD688041554@gmail.com> On Jun 12, 2012, at 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The > list is long... > * Newton Wouldn't say "came to nothing". It had a fairly long run as abortive products go. It died before its time, certainly. > * OpenDoc ...was a nice idea, but ultimately impractical. Microsoft essentially does it with OLE, which makes a handy mess out of document formats. > * OpenTransport I wouldn't even say it "came to nothing"; it was the primary communications facility right up until the end of "classic" Mac OS. It wouldn't have made a lot of sense to use on a Unix platform. > * GameSprockets Didn't quite die, but essentially got re-absorbed as OS X components. > * Pippin > * CyberDog I barely remember these two. > * Sherlock Was terrible. It deserved to perish in flames. So does Spotlight, IMHO, but it's an Important Part Of The Operating System (tm) now, especially given Apple's apparent intent to make it increasingly difficult to find where your documents are stored with every new OS X iteration. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 12 08:13:22 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 06:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 06/12/2012 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The >> list is long... >> * Newton >> * OpenTransport > > I don't know all of their cutesy little project names, but these two > at least didn't exactly fizzle. Yes, they were discontinued eventually, > but not before being in pretty popular use. > Apple is the Fox Television of the computer industry. If it's actually interesting, it must be cancelled immediately. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 12 11:52:34 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:52:34 -0400 Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: <1339518413.8747.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339518413.8747.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FD773D2.7030409@neurotica.com> On 06/12/2012 12:26 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > assuming an empty socket (IBM mobos typically have empty sockets), chances are if you dropped IBM roms into a clone mobo, while it may not boot into BASIC in the absence of a floppy or hard drive, would it work if you jumped to so and so? That depends on the level of "cloneness". In the context of my very first PC XT clone eons ago, I put a full copy of the IBM ROM BIOS and ROM BASIC in it, and it went right into BASIC as expected when it couldn't find a boot device. That was a pretty close copy of the XT design; the only real difference was the ability to switch the clock to 8MHz from 4.77. It ran IBM BASIC from ROM just fine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 12:19:23 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:19:23 +0100 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <4FD7659B.2050809@bitsavers.org> References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> <4FD7659B.2050809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 12 June 2012 16:51, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/12/12 8:37 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> The Newton was certainly big after Gary Trudeau made fun of his in >> "Doonesbury" for its sometimes-quirky handwriting recognition. >> >> Apple may have killed the product, but tens of millions, at least, >> knew something about it through the comics. >> > > few people know that Apple kept working on handwriting recongition into the > 21st century > > http://www.beanblossom.in.us/larryy/anhr.html Fascinating! Thanks! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 12:20:28 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:20:28 +0100 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 12 June 2012 16:54, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I rather wish they'd kill of HFS+, weren't there rumors of moving to ZFS a > few years back? I don't know what happened but I suspect it might have been something to do with the Oracle takeover. This has caused problems with Java use on Linux, for example. Oracle won't permit others to host the JVM in a repository any more, for instance. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 12:23:59 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:23:59 +0100 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <4FD76706.5010603@neurotica.com> References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> <4FD76706.5010603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 12 June 2012 16:57, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 06/12/2012 11:37 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 12 June 2012 16:20, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On 06/12/2012 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>>> It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The >>>> list is long... >>>> * Newton >>>> * OpenTransport >>> >>> ?I don't know all of their cutesy little project names, but these two >>> at least didn't exactly fizzle. ?Yes, they were discontinued eventually, >>> but not before being in pretty popular use. >> >> True. Ultimately killed off, though. > > ?Sure, like everything else, though. ?How long does something have to > last as a product to be considered "successful"? > >> Indeed about the only Apple technologies that persist in Mac OS X are >> QuickTime and HFS+. I think it's fair to say /everything/ else is gone >> now; a few backwards-compatibility traces remain. > > ?Now I have to admit that it's been a long time since I've slept, but > this is confusing to me. ?There's TONS of Apple code in OS X and iOS > that could arguably be termed "Apple technologies". ?What, exactly, are > you talking about here? ?Do you mean "old" "Apple technologies", like > pre-OS X stuff? Yes, exactly that. Apple had a whole OS ecosystem before Mac OS X: its own OS, binary format, disk metadata system, printing system, network protocol, network filesystem, object model, web browser, search subsystem and front-end, sound, image and video formats, etc. etc. OS X brought over some elements and some bits stuck around for a while - Classic mode, for instance. Almost all of it is gone now. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just remarkable how radical the transition has been. Many have said it before me, but it's as if NeXT took over Apple rather than the other way round. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 12 12:46:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 10:46:50 -0700 Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: <1339518413.8747.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339518413.8747.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FD71E1A.10205.46CCA2@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jun 2012 at 9:26, Chris Tofu wrote: > assuming an empty socket (IBM mobos typically have empty sockets), > chances are if you dropped IBM roms into a clone mobo, while it may > not boot into BASIC in the absence of a floppy or hard drive, would it > work if you jumped to so and so? I used to do it all the time. Yes, it works. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 12 13:36:06 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 14:36:06 -0400 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <49AB486BC59345D5BDDFB36013D89C91@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:13 AM Subject: Re: interesting Quora post on Marklar > On Tue, 12 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > Apple is the Fox Television of the computer industry. If it's actually > interesting, it must be cancelled immediately. > Never heard of Fringe? From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Jun 11 04:31:16 2012 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 02:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAXstation 3 with DECvoice unit available in Macon, Georgia Message-ID: See below. Reply-to: Brian Pitts -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 01:43:12 -0400 From: Brian Pitts To: donate at vintage.org Subject: Available VAX Down in Macon, GA my dad has a DEC that we would like to send to a good home. He purchased this several years ago from a man in north Georgia who said it spend the 1990s answering the phone at a utility company. My dad kept it in his classroom while he was a high school technology teacher, but now that he's no longer teaching it's gathering dust on his carport. There's a VAXstation 3, DECvoice unit, two hard drives, and a tape drive in an enclosure on wheels. There's also a VT420 terminal. You can see some pictures of the equipment at http://www.flickr.com/photos/puerexmachina/sets/72157622981044137/ Please pass this on to anyone you think might be interested! -- All the best, Brian Pitts From md.benson at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 13:40:21 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:40:21 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60F7C83E-3C40-4545-A1DD-124412CC191B@gmail.com> On 12 Jun 2012, at 14:06, Gene Buckle wrote: > Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards. Pretty slick: > > http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster I have a project lined up for RetroChallenge 2012 to do a 4-machine SimH VAX cluster using Raspberry Pi but this guy beat me to it on the back of me only having 1 board. I wonder if he;d want to co-op on the project and teach me about VMScluster ;) -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 12 13:41:22 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 14:41:22 -0400 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> <4FD76706.5010603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <91E669858C3B490B9F009828DE03E9AB@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 1:23 PM Subject: Re: interesting Quora post on Marklar > I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just remarkable how radical the > transition has been. Many have said it before me, but it's as if NeXT > took over Apple rather than the other way round. > Isn't that just Jobs bringing his own people in because he didn't trust the people at Apple when he arrived? Most of the Apple software tech he found was from after he got the boot so I don't see him caring about any of it. I must be one of the few that liked classic Mac OS and not OSX (why remake a decade old user interface?). From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jun 12 13:44:35 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:44:35 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FD78E13.3090503@jwsss.com> Gene, I looked at your page, and note that someone pointed out that Martin Richards has a guide to loading BCPL on pi http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mr10/bcpl4raspi.pdf Thought I'd pass the word along for him. One of the list members has some of his original lab hardware, Computer Automation systems. I had the opportunity to use BCPL on multics and for the Mathilda machine from Aarhus Denmark. thanks Jim On 6/12/2012 6:06 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards. Pretty slick: > > http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster > > g. > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 12 13:49:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 14:49:35 -0400 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> <4FD76706.5010603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FD78F3F.3030403@neurotica.com> On 06/12/2012 01:23 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> Indeed about the only Apple technologies that persist in Mac OS X are >>> QuickTime and HFS+. I think it's fair to say /everything/ else is gone >>> now; a few backwards-compatibility traces remain. >> >> Now I have to admit that it's been a long time since I've slept, but >> this is confusing to me. There's TONS of Apple code in OS X and iOS >> that could arguably be termed "Apple technologies". What, exactly, are >> you talking about here? Do you mean "old" "Apple technologies", like >> pre-OS X stuff? > > Yes, exactly that. > > Apple had a whole OS ecosystem before Mac OS X: its own OS, binary > format, disk metadata system, printing system, network protocol, > network filesystem, object model, web browser, search subsystem and > front-end, sound, image and video formats, etc. etc. > > OS X brought over some elements and some bits stuck around for a while > - Classic mode, for instance. > > Almost all of it is gone now. > > I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just remarkable how radical the > transition has been. Many have said it before me, but it's as if NeXT > took over Apple rather than the other way round. Ahh ok, I see what you mean. And yes I have to agree! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From abs at absd.org Tue Jun 12 13:53:32 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:53:32 +0100 Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP In-Reply-To: References: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On 11 June 2012 01:00, Charles Dickman wrote: > On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 12:34 PM, David Brownlee wrote: >> On 9 June 2012 00:12, Charles Dickman wrote: >> > On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jochen Kunz >> > wrote: >> ? I had trouble with NetBSD 1.6 and >> > later and finally stopped using the vax for my web server in about 2004. >> >> Sorry to hear that - can you recall what the issues were? > > I couldn't get the packages to build and it was usually something floating > point related. I think Perl was one that I looked into the most. Ah, VAX FP, a definite Achilles Heel... I've not run anything intensive but I've not seen any issues with perl 5.14 so far on my 4000/90 :) From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 12 10:29:09 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 08:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <49AB486BC59345D5BDDFB36013D89C91@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> <49AB486BC59345D5BDDFB36013D89C91@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jun 2012, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:13 AM > Subject: Re: interesting Quora post on Marklar > > >> On Tue, 12 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Apple is the Fox Television of the computer industry. If it's actually >> interesting, it must be cancelled immediately. >> > > Never heard of Fringe? > I'll see your Fringe and raise you a Firefly. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 14:18:28 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BASIC rom compatibility Message-ID: <1339528708.1267.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> You (Chuck) and Dave are speaking specifically of so called 100% clones. That I fully expect to be a given. That there exists the mechanism to default to a batch of code in a rom address is news to me though, even in a hundred percenter. But since there is so much compatibility amongst BASICS, as was mentioned recently, and given an empty socket (curious to know which mobos had them, probably few if any) or a board that would extend an existing socket, is it likely an IBM chip would work, even if you had to manually transfer execution. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 14:33:07 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:33:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: <1BA44B06-C896-490C-A209-BA9CAFA6F6EE@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Jun 11, 12 04:23:26 pm Message-ID: > Well, of course, if you want to be a purist about it you can always > replace the unwieldy mess with the correct cable later, when people > are actually going to *see* it. Getting it running is hardly the _I_ am much more intereseted in how the machines work, what they were like to use, and so on, rather than what they look like. So while I'd not want an unreliable kludge (such as bare wires that could short, or connections that keep on coming adrift), I'd have no problem with making an adapter cable and keeping it in use. It's not a permanent modification, it doesn't damage anything in any way. > time to be a stickler unless it's actually going to damage something. Agreed. The things I am totally against (like boardswapping or powering up an unknown machine to see ehat happens), I am against because they can cause damage to classic comnputers. Try-it-and-see wiring of an RS232 port will not. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 14:43:10 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:43:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <201206112143.RAA16343@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Jun 11, 12 05:43:49 pm Message-ID: > > >> Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits, which > >> would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits). > > Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. Those > > can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct), > > No, it doesn't. See Wikipedia's Hamming code page (asking for SECDED > redirects to it) for a brief treatment of the subject, or any of many > more detailed treatments of coding theory for more. I am missing something here... The OP says that adding 3 bits to a 16 bit word is enough to be able to correct any single-bit error. Now, consider those 16 'real' data bits. If any single one is in error, that generates a new 16 bit word, and each of these much give the same output 16 bit word after error correction. So it would appear to me that there have to at least 17 possible input words (the 'correct' one, and the 16 wach with one bit fillped form the corrrect one) that give the same 16 bit output -- that is what is meant by correcting single bit erorr. And yet adding 3 bits only gives you 8 times as many possible data words, which doesn't seem enough. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 14:55:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:55:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: <4FD69672.1090105@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 11, 12 09:08:02 pm Message-ID: > Yes! That's exactly what I do, but I don't recommend it anymore > because the response is usually "I don't have one of those things with > LEDs and they're so EXXPEEENNSSIIVEE!!" (they're like ten Err, right... While I can understnad not wantign to spend hundreds or thousands of dolalrs on tools and test gear just to get one machine up and running, I do think that spending $10 ro so to get the machine working is well worth it (hint : If you had to pay me for my time in sorting it out, it would be a lot more expensive than that :-)), and anyway, an RS232 tester is something you'll ened aagian and again if you work on classic computers. Can you stil lget tyhose LED adapters? At one time just about every PC shop sold them, but now, since RS232 is out of fashion, I;'ve nto seen them on sale for several years. It's not hard to make one, but... > bucks...cheapasses) But yes, that works perfectly. Something needs to > be driving TxD, and something needs to be driving RxD. Which is which, > and what state they're in, is unimportant if the goal is to get it talking. The other trikc is to see what flow control lines are being driven, and it noting works, to try loppign them back to what they normally pair with (e.g. if pin 4 -- RTS -- is being driven by a device and you can't get it to sand anything, try connecting RTS to CTS (4 to 5)). You migth end up with a thing that drops data due to buffer overrun from time to time, but you sort that out once you've got it sending something. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 14:59:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:59:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: <6A8CB411B742460281B9E7D97986B351@hd2600xt6a04f7> from "TeoZ" at Jun 11, 12 09:16:17 pm Message-ID: > >> Nice links, I have one of the H8571-HP adapters which is listed. What > > about the RJ45 ethernet to MJJ adapters (I have one Amphenol 482560001)? > >> > > > > Is that a coupler that you plug an MMJ cable plug in one end an an RJ45 > > cable plug in the other? > > It has a female socket for the MMJ plug on one end and a male RJ45 plug > molded into the other end. > > DEC and Digital Equipment > > Mfg Part Number 482560001 > > Product Description Part Number: 482560001 New, Used, Refurbished, and > Repair of AMPHENOL RJ45-M TO MMJ-F ADAPT. Are you sure this has anythign to do with ethernet? My guess is that it's sued to linke DEC serial ports (MMJs) to the modern 'structured wiring' found in soem buildings. You'd use them in pairs, one ant each end of a building cable so as to connect the 2 serial devices. And, please, it's not RJ45 unless you are taling about a particular US telephone wiring scheme. 10baseT ethernet, etc does not use an RJ45 conenctor. It's an 8p8c. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 15:03:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:03:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: A Teletype Model 43 and a 1938 Army dual teletype with paper tapes In-Reply-To: <009e01cd484e$7a0c0730$6e241590$@m.18@atsgate.com> from "Scott M" at Jun 11, 12 09:50:15 pm Message-ID: > > I was at a storage unit this evening, picking up yet another couple of > free DEC machines. The guy unloading the machines also had a couple of > teletypes. One was a pretty standard Model 43 (all plastic case). > It had a 300 baud interface, not serial port. He said he knows it works I am wondering jsut what a '300 baud interface' is if not a serial port. It sounds like it might be a current loop interface. I thought the Model 43 had both that and RS232 as standrd, but it does depened on the PCB at the very back, behind the PSU. I _think_ that standard Model 43s can do 110 or 300 baud. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 12 15:06:24 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:06:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <4FD6CA7F.5010308@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Jun 12, 12 06:50:07 am Message-ID: > It might have a sound technical reason to provide error-correcting RAM, > but only Philips would ignore the financial consequences of having to > provide an extra 30% of memory for that functionality. I beelive soem VAXen also had ECC (SECDED) RAM. And doubtless other machines (Zilog S8000s?) There are plenty of cases where it's worth spending more at the start to have soemthing that works reliably, even if the PC seems to have eliminated that idea. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 12 12:18:11 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 10:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... In-Reply-To: <4FD78E13.3090503@jwsss.com> References: <4FD78E13.3090503@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jun 2012, jim s wrote: > Gene, > I looked at your page, and note that someone pointed out that Martin Richards > has a guide to loading BCPL on pi > > http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mr10/bcpl4raspi.pdf > > Thought I'd pass the word along for him. One of the list members has some of > his original lab hardware, Computer Automation systems. > > I had the opportunity to use BCPL on multics and for the Mathilda machine > from Aarhus Denmark. > It's not my site, but thanks for passing along the info! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From db at db.net Tue Jun 12 16:12:38 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:12:38 -0500 Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: <4FD773D2.7030409@neurotica.com> References: <1339518413.8747.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FD773D2.7030409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120612211238.GA76247@night.db.net> On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 12:52:34PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 06/12/2012 12:26 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > assuming an empty socket (IBM mobos typically have empty sockets), chances are if you dropped IBM roms into a clone mobo, while it may not boot into BASIC in the absence of a floppy or hard drive, would it work if you jumped to so and so? .. > couldn't find a boot device. That was a pretty close copy of the XT > design; the only real difference was the ability to switch the clock to > 8MHz from 4.77. It ran IBM BASIC from ROM just fine. I remember the early clone errors of "No interpreter" when it couldn't find a boot disk. ;-) > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 16:38:02 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:38:02 -0500 Subject: Available VAX In-Reply-To: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 11:39 PM, Brian Pitts wrote: > There's a VAXstation 3, DECvoice unit, two hard drives, and a tape drive > in an enclosure on wheels. There's also a VT420 terminal. You'd need a > truck, ramp, and at least two strong people to load and unload this. > > You can see some pictures of the equipment at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/puerexmachina/sets/72157622981044137/ Two things I notice here: first, the odd wide side panels on the (I assume) low-boy corporate cabinet. Never seen those before. Are they just cosmetic or do they serve a purpose. Second, HOLY CRAP A DECVOICE. Never seen one of those, either. Plenty of DECTalk units, in their various forms, but never a Voice. IIRC, that was an early voice-rec system, no? Or was it just voicemail? Me want. Me too far away :( j From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 12 17:02:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 15:02:19 -0700 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: <201206112143.RAA16343@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Jun 11, 12 05:43:49 pm, Message-ID: <4FD759FB.26518.130B53F@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jun 2012 at 20:43, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > >> Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits, > > >> which would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits). > > > Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. > > > Those can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are > > > correct), > > > > No, it doesn't. See Wikipedia's Hamming code page (asking for > > SECDED redirects to it) for a brief treatment of the subject, or any > > of many more detailed treatments of coding theory for more. > > I am missing something here... The OP says that adding 3 bits to a 16 > bit word is enough to be able to correct any single-bit error. I think he meant +1 instead of -1 in the equation. So 5 bits, not 3. But I assumed that he'd just copied it wrong from memory or source. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 12 17:11:26 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 15:11:26 -0700 Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: <1339528708.1267.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339528708.1267.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jun 2012 at 12:18, Chris Tofu wrote: > You (Chuck) and Dave are speaking specifically of so called 100% > clones. That I fully expect to be a given. That there exists the > mechanism to default to a batch of code in a rom address is news to me > though, even in a hundred percenter. But since there is so much > compatibility amongst BASICS, as was mentioned recently, and given an > empty socket (curious to know which mobos had them, probably few if > any) or a board that would extend an existing socket, is it likely an > IBM chip would work, even if you had to manually transfer execution. I take "clone" at its face value the same way as I view "pregnant". You either are or you're something else. An Eagle 1600 runs MS-DOS but is not a PC clone. But I don't follow the rest of your post--perhaps if you used shorter sentences... --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 17:24:23 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:24:23 -0400 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: <4FD6CA7F.5010308@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I beelive soem VAXen also had ECC (SECDED) RAM. Yes. At the very least, the KA730 (11/730 and 11/725) and KA750 (11/750) used 39-bit-wide main memory. The 11/750 could take either 256K boards that also worked in an 11/70, and the 1MB boards fit in all 11/730s and most 11/750s (the earliest models needed an extra refresh wire strung along the memory backplane and an upgraded memory controller or else they could only take the 256KB boards). I never owned/ran the last rev of the 11/750 that had yet another memory controller and could take up to two 4MB boards, but I have no reason to believe they were not also 39 bits wide. In thousands of hours of running that variety of memory board (a couple square feet of 4164s for the 1MB model) in several machines, I think I only ever saw one or two hard failures (double-bit errors). I think we saw less than one correctable error per year. It was not frequent. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 18:10:26 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:10:26 -0400 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 12, 2012, at 15:43, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >>>> Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits, which >>>> would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits). >>> Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. Those >>> can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct), >> >> No, it doesn't. See Wikipedia's Hamming code page (asking for SECDED >> redirects to it) for a brief treatment of the subject, or any of many >> more detailed treatments of coding theory for more. > > I am missing something here... The OP says that adding 3 bits to a 16 bit > word is enough to be able to correct any single-bit error. > > Now, consider those 16 'real' data bits. If any single one is in error, > that generates a new 16 bit word, and each of these much give the same > output 16 bit word after error correction. So it would appear to me that > there have to at least 17 possible input words (the 'correct' one, and > the 16 wach with one bit fillped form the corrrect one) that give the > same 16 bit output -- that is what is meant by correcting single bit erorr. > > And yet adding 3 bits only gives you 8 times as many possible data words, > which doesn't seem enough. I'm not actually the OP, just a respondent. In any case, I'd note that I qualified it with "if I recall correctly", which can be a pretty major qualifier. :-) - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 18:55:42 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:55:42 -0400 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 12, 2012, at 16:06, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> It might have a sound technical reason to provide error-correcting RAM, >> but only Philips would ignore the financial consequences of having to >> provide an extra 30% of memory for that functionality. > > I beelive soem VAXen also had ECC (SECDED) RAM. And doubtless other > machines (Zilog S8000s?) > > There are plenty of cases where it's worth spending more at the start to > have soemthing that works reliably, even if the PC seems to have > eliminated that idea. Plenty of PCs support ECC RAM. Generally on the server/workstation side of things, but I'd hardly call it uncommon. Of course, "working reliably" does involve a lot more than just eliminating bit errors from cosmic rays, I'll give you that one. - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 19:19:58 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:19:58 +0100 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <91E669858C3B490B9F009828DE03E9AB@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> <4FD76706.5010603@neurotica.com> <91E669858C3B490B9F009828DE03E9AB@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On 12 June 2012 19:41, TeoZ wrote: > > Isn't that just Jobs bringing his own people in because he didn't trust the > people at Apple when he arrived? I am sure at least part of that is true, but at first, the NeXTites were far outnumbered. > Most of the Apple software tech he found was from after he got the boot so I > don't see him caring about any of it. Arguably true, yes. > I must be one of the few that liked classic Mac OS and not OSX (why remake a > decade old user interface?). I like both, myself. There are many elements of classic MacOS that I miss in OS X, though, from the elegance of the System Folder and the simplicity of the customisable Apple menu, to the convenience of drawers. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info Tue Jun 12 19:27:36 2012 From: dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info (Dennis Yurichev) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 03:27:36 +0300 Subject: Ukraine? Message-ID: <4FD7DE78.8050800@conus.info> Hi. Just interesting, is there any lurkers/classic computers fans from Ukraine here in this mailing list? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 19:56:02 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 17:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BASIC rom compatibility Message-ID: <1339548962.61388.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Ill wager they must have been very illegal clones Diane. Do you remember anymore specifics? And with her statement I dare anyone to tell me the real early even vanilla clones arent collectible. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 20:44:09 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:44:09 -0400 Subject: Available VAX In-Reply-To: References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> Message-ID: > Second, HOLY CRAP A DECVOICE. ? Never seen one of those, either. > Plenty of DECTalk units, in their various forms, but never a Voice. > IIRC, that was an early voice-rec system, no? ?Or was it just > voicemail? I think it was a voice recognition system that did not work worth a damn. > Me want. ?Me too far away :( Me going down that way to pick up an old IBM CTC box. Me should think about this VAX. Me needs another VAX like a hole in the head. Me also (me thinks) finally unearthed those tapes for the RT. -- Will From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 21:04:44 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:04:44 -0400 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <4FD759FB.26518.130B53F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201206112143.RAA16343@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Jun 11, 12 05:43:49 pm, <4FD759FB.26518.130B53F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jun 12, 2012, at 6:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Jun 2012 at 20:43, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> >>>>> Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits, >>>>> which would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits). >>>> Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. >>>> Those can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are >>>> correct), >>> >>> No, it doesn't. See Wikipedia's Hamming code page (asking for >>> SECDED redirects to it) for a brief treatment of the subject, or any >>> of many more detailed treatments of coding theory for more. >> >> I am missing something here... The OP says that adding 3 bits to a 16 >> bit word is enough to be able to correct any single-bit error. > > I think he meant +1 instead of -1 in the equation. So 5 bits, not 3. > But I assumed that he'd just copied it wrong from memory or source. Faulty memory, in this case. I suppose I could use some ECC in the wetware myself. :-) - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 12 21:48:18 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:48:18 -0700 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4FD79D02.25575.2368905@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jun 2012 at 19:55, David Riley wrote: > Of course, "working reliably" does involve a lot more than just > eliminating bit errors from cosmic rays, I'll give you that one. I thought it interesting that the CDC 6600/CYBER 70 series did not have any memory error checking whatsoever (the old "Parity is for farmers" quote), but that the CYBER 170 series had semiconductor memory and SECDED. >From my recollection, if the old systems passed deadstart diagnostics, the chance of seeing a memory error that day was very small. Was early semiconductor memory less reliable than core? I don't recall that part. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 22:02:51 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:02:51 -0500 Subject: Available VAX In-Reply-To: References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 8:44 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Me going down that way to pick up an old IBM CTC box. Me should think > about this VAX. Me needs another VAX like a hole in the head. Well, if you happen to pick it up, happen to save it and happen to pass through here again.... :) > Me also (me thinks) finally unearthed those tapes for the RT. Ahh, cool, thanks. I have also got some floppy images for them from various sources. Unfortunately they are still sitting in the exact spot in the garage where they landed when removed from my car. j From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jun 12 22:19:45 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 03:19:45 +0000 Subject: P800 boards Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B0299BB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> >> >> Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits, which >> >> would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits). >> > Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. Those >> > can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct), >> >> No, it doesn't. See Wikipedia's Hamming code page (asking for SECDED >> redirects to it) for a brief treatment of the subject, or any of many >> more detailed treatments of coding theory for more. > > I am missing something here... The OP says that adding 3 bits to a 16 bit > word is enough to be able to correct any single-bit error. > > Now, consider those 16 'real' data bits. If any single one is in error, > that generates a new 16 bit word, and each of these much give the same > output 16 bit word after error correction. So it would appear to me that > there have to at least 17 possible input words (the 'correct' one, and > the 16 wach with one bit fillped form the corrrect one) that give the > same 16 bit output -- that is what is meant by correcting single bit erorr. > And yet adding 3 bits only gives you 8 times as many possible data words, > which doesn't seem enough. The example I know, is the MK11 memory box. ECC there is done at the single-error correction, double-error detection level on 32-bit words. This takes 7 check bits. I find the most satisfying illustration to be the MK11B print set, there's a very nice 11x17 page in large type, illustrating how all this is done with XOR gates. I find this much more digestible than the usual mathematical equation stuff found in textbooks. That's a brilliant page. It shows how to, by eye, to read the XOR gate outputs to identify the error syndrome uniquely, with just a few words. Many fewer words than I used in this paragraph!!!! If you didn't want double-error detection it would take 6 check bits per 32 bit word. Maybe the implication that there is 3 check bits per 16 bit words, assumes single-bit correction and the actual ECC logic is working on 32 bit words. If the ECC was working on 16 bit words, it would take 5 check bits. Tim. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 22:47:31 2012 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:47:31 +1000 Subject: seeking ATT PC 7300 keyboard caps...letter C and Reset/Break Message-ID: Just acquired a PC 7300 and as I am cursed with always incomplete keyboards would be interested if anyone has spare keycaps for it please. I am missing the letter C keycap and the Reset/Break keycap. Example picture: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Att-3b1.JPG I can offer VT100-style keycaps as a trade or paypal. thanks, nigel. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 12 23:00:51 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:00:51 -0700 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: <201206112143.RAA16343@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <4FD759FB.26518.130B53F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4FD7AE03.21546.278F26C@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jun 2012 at 22:04, David Riley wrote: > Faulty memory, in this case. I suppose I could use some ECC in the > wetware myself. :-) As my wetware dries out and I slowly evolve into a gibbering idiot, it gets harder to remember what I worked so hard to learn. BCH codes, for example. I spent a lot of time on them--and now I can barely remember what the BCH stands for. As one longtime friend would say "Don't get old--you won't like it." --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 13 00:03:44 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:03:44 -0400 Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <91E669858C3B490B9F009828DE03E9AB@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> <4FD76706.5010603@neurotica.com> <91E669858C3B490B9F009828DE03E9AB@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <4FD81F30.5000500@neurotica.com> On 06/12/2012 02:41 PM, TeoZ wrote: > I must be one of the few that liked classic Mac OS and not OSX (why > remake a decade old user interface?). Because it worked well and everyone liked it? It's not automatically "bad" because it's not "new", even though that seems to be The American Way now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 13 00:08:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:08:04 -0400 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com> On 06/12/2012 03:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Yes! That's exactly what I do, but I don't recommend it anymore >> because the response is usually "I don't have one of those things with >> LEDs and they're so EXXPEEENNSSIIVEE!!" (they're like ten > > Err, right... > > While I can understnad not wantign to spend hundreds or thousands of > dolalrs on tools and test gear just to get one machine up and running, I > do think that spending $10 ro so to get the machine working is well worth > it (hint : If you had to pay me for my time in sorting it out, it would > be a lot more expensive than that :-)), and anyway, an RS232 tester is > something you'll ened aagian and again if you work on classic computers. Yes. > Can you stil lget tyhose LED adapters? At one time just about every PC > shop sold them, but now, since RS232 is out of fashion, I;'ve nto seen > them on sale for several years. PC shops sell new PCs and games, that's about it. The world's marketplace has moved to eBay. You can get them (brand new of course...a lot of people think something is "used" or "old" if the sales venue is eBay) all day long, cheap, on eBay. > It's not hard to make one, but... ...but a complete waste of time, unless you've got nothing better to do. >> bucks...cheapasses) But yes, that works perfectly. Something needs to >> be driving TxD, and something needs to be driving RxD. Which is which, >> and what state they're in, is unimportant if the goal is to get it talking. > > The other trikc is to see what flow control lines are being driven, and > it noting works, to try loppign them back to what they normally pair with > (e.g. if pin 4 -- RTS -- is being driven by a device and you can't get it > to sand anything, try connecting RTS to CTS (4 to 5)). You migth end up > with a thing that drops data due to buffer overrun from time to time, but > you sort that out once you've got it sending something. I literally cannot remember the last time I had to do anything with other than 2, 3, and 7. Even one of the controller designs I inherited at work had a bunch of firmware to manage RTS and CTS to talk to a GSM modem at 115Kbps, and it works better with that code commented out. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 13 00:13:40 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar In-Reply-To: <4FD81F30.5000500@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jun 13, 12 01:03:44 am" Message-ID: <201206130513.q5D5DeLj14352386@floodgap.com> > > I must be one of the few that liked classic Mac OS and not OSX (why > > remake a decade old user interface?). > > Because it worked well and everyone liked it? It's not automatically > "bad" because it's not "new", even though that seems to be The American > Way now. It's always a breath of fresh air to be in OS 9, though my daily desktop OS X is still 10.4 (and will always be, as long as my daily driver Macs remain PowerPC), so I don't have the greyrot that set in with 10.5. It's fun taking an OS 9 laptop on the road and getting lots of fascinated looks. And, omg, a spatial Finder. What a concept. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Wouldn't your life be simpler if you were reading this on a Commodore 64? -- From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 13 00:15:42 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 23:15:42 -0600 Subject: Fox TV shows (was: interesting Quora post on Marklar) In-Reply-To: References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com> <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org> <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com> <49AB486BC59345D5BDDFB36013D89C91@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: In article , Gene Buckle writes: > > Never heard of Fringe? > > > I'll see your Fringe and raise you a Firefly. :) Firefly + Fringe = Fringe, i.e. Firely is noise compared to Fringe's signal Firefly is *WAY* overrated for what it was. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 13 00:16:27 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jun 13, 12 01:08:04 am" Message-ID: <201206130516.q5D5GR4x13697064@floodgap.com> > > Can you stil lget tyhose LED adapters? At one time just about every PC > > shop sold them, but now, since RS232 is out of fashion, I;'ve nto seen > > them on sale for several years. Fry's still carries them. Not super cheap, but I still see a few in stock in the two Fry's shops I frequent. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A different taste in jokes is a great strain on the affections. -- G. Eliot From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 00:27:47 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 07:27:47 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B0299BB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B0299BB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 5:19 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > If you didn't want double-error detection it would take 6 check bits per 32 bit word. Maybe > the implication that there is 3 check bits per 16 bit words, assumes single-bit correction > and the actual ECC logic is working on 32 bit words. If the ECC was working on 16 bit words, > it would take 5 check bits. This thread got started after I put some pictures and descriptions of the P800 cards online. Then this thread got started with Jos's question: "Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor memory?" So, the thread started with hardware that has 5 check bits. The idea of 3 checks bits possibly being enough for ECC was introduced later, then discredited. Camiel From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 13 00:44:34 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:44:34 -0400 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port References: Message-ID: <84087A8EACC84FB9844E13B895D8BDD5@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 3:59 PM Subject: Re: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port >> Product Description Part Number: 482560001 New, Used, Refurbished, and >> Repair of AMPHENOL RJ45-M TO MMJ-F ADAPT. > > Are you sure this has anythign to do with ethernet? My guess is that it's > sued to linke DEC serial ports (MMJs) to the modern 'structured wiring' > found in soem buildings. You'd use them in pairs, one ant each end of a > building cable so as to connect the 2 serial devices. > > And, please, it's not RJ45 unless you are taling about a particular US > telephone wiring scheme. 10baseT ethernet, etc does not use an RJ45 > conenctor. It's an 8p8c. > > -tony I have no clue what they were used for. When I got my MicroVAX I looked around for months and found a couple MJJ cables and some VT-525s plus keyboards so I just use them without adapters. Those adapters were in the box with the cables so I snagged them too (recycler). From tpresence at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 17:10:00 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:10:00 -0600 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: References: <1BA44B06-C896-490C-A209-BA9CAFA6F6EE@gmail.com> from "David Message-ID: In interest of having the quickest and most reliable solution, I took a look into the dec vt1300 and VR320 x-terminal I have, and found out that not only can it do x-windows, but if you ensure the rear s-3 switch is in the correct position (down), you can connect the console from the vax 3900 directly to the printer port of the vt1300, and use the "DTE" command from the vt1300 boot logic to get a dumb terminal. Works wonders. This eliminates the need for me to connect the vax systems to my wyse 60 enitrely, especially since the dec keyboard has additional gold keys that make things much easier in the long run. Nothing like having to figure out that the macintosh thin keyboard keypad "-" character is the "do" character to get into EDT/TPU or EVE command mode. Kevin > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:33:07 +0100 > > > Well, of course, if you want to be a purist about it you can always > > replace the unwieldy mess with the correct cable later, when people > > are actually going to *see* it. Getting it running is hardly the > > _I_ am much more intereseted in how the machines work, what they were > like to use, and so on, rather than what they look like. So while I'd not > want an unreliable kludge (such as bare wires that could short, or > connections that keep on coming adrift), I'd have no problem with making > an adapter cable and keeping it in use. It's not a permanent > modification, it doesn't damage anything in any way. > > > time to be a stickler unless it's actually going to damage something. > > Agreed. The things I am totally against (like boardswapping or powering up > an unknown machine to see ehat happens), I am against because they can > cause damage to classic comnputers. Try-it-and-see wiring of an RS232 > port will not. > > -tony From tpresence at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 17:14:04 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:14:04 -0600 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: References: <4FD69672.1090105@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 11, 12 09:08:02 pm, Message-ID: > Can you stil lget tyhose LED adapters? At one time just about every PC > shop sold them, but now, since RS232 is out of fashion, I;'ve nto seen > them on sale for several years. > I do have one of these devices in a 25 pin personality. My problem wasn't that I didn't know what pin was what on the system, the problem was what pin was what on the connectors I wanted to buy. Ultimately, I am pretty damn sure from my research that the DEC H8575-D adapter was the correct one. Since I had the pinouts, it was basically understanding what pins go to what. Kevin From tpresence at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 18:12:08 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 17:12:08 -0600 Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around Message-ID: I have looked through bitsavers and some other old vax manual repositories online and I haven't found a manual for the DEC VT1300. I did an installation and service manual for the VR320 monitors I have, but they only cover the display. I have worked out alot of details about the vt1300 system, and have gotten one working 100%, but haven't figured out what terminal emulation the terminal personality of the unit uses. It works 95% with the vax 3900 I have it attached to, but from time to time I see what I assume as vt100 control codes in the output stream. I assumed that that unit used vt100 emulation out of the box, and that the vax console would go this way as well, but perhaps I'm wrong. It could be that the vax is vt52 some other terminal type by default, or that the 1300 does vt102, or vt220... Kevin From brian at polibyte.com Wed Jun 13 00:51:48 2012 From: brian at polibyte.com (Brian Pitts) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:51:48 -0400 Subject: Available VAX In-Reply-To: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> Message-ID: <4FD82A74.6060609@polibyte.com> On 06/12/2012 12:39 AM, Brian Pitts wrote: > Down in Macon, GA my dad has a DEC that we would like to send to a good > home. He purchased this several years ago from a man in north > Georgia who said it spend the 1990s answering the phone at a utility > company. My dad kept it in his classroom while he was a high school > technology teacher, but now that he's no longer teaching it's gathering > dust on his carport. > > There's a VAXstation 3, DECvoice unit, two hard drives, and a tape drive > in an enclosure on wheels. There's also a VT420 terminal. You'd need a > truck, ramp, and at least two strong people to load and unload this. > > You can see some pictures of the equipment at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/puerexmachina/sets/72157622981044137/ > > Please pass this on to anyone you think might be interested! I should mention that I don't know much about the hardware myself, so if anyone can look at the pictures and clue me in I'd appreciate it! Although I don't have experience with freight shipping, I'm willing to try it it someone is interested in the system but cannot pick it up. You'd need to cover the cost. If I can't find a taker soon I fear this system will end up in the scrap heap, as my dad wants it gone and I don't have the space for it. -- All the best, Brian Pitts From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 01:15:42 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 03:15:42 -0300 Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout References: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook> Dear sirs, As many of you may know, it is next to impossible to find something apple-related in Brazil, and even worse to //c. Of course I want to put a memory expansion on it, but these are rare, and (insert expletive here) expensive. I want to roll my own, but I was unable to find a memory expansion bus pinout on the net. Any tips? Thanks Alexandre Souza --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Jun 13 01:42:07 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 08:42:07 +0200 Subject: Available VAX In-Reply-To: References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> Message-ID: <20120613064206.GA21599@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 04:38:02PM -0500, Jason T wrote: > Two things I notice here: first, the odd wide side panels on the (I > assume) low-boy corporate cabinet. Never seen those before. Are they > just cosmetic or do they serve a purpose. Airflow. Look at the fans on the side of the BA boxes and note that the air intake is on the front left and outtake is backside right. It must have been added for the microvax which I assume produce more heat then a microPDP-11 in the same rack. I've only seen it in pictures before. E.g: http://www.olddec.nl/Thanks-41-Years/vax-vms-timeline-1.jpg /P From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 13 01:49:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 02:49:01 -0400 Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FD837DD.6050807@neurotica.com> On 06/12/2012 07:12 PM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > I have looked through bitsavers and some other old vax manual > repositories online and I haven't found a manual for the DEC VT1300. > I did an installation and service manual for the VR320 monitors I > have, but they only cover the display. I have worked out alot of > details about the vt1300 system, and have gotten one working 100%, > but haven't figured out what terminal emulation the terminal > personality of the unit uses. It works 95% with the vax 3900 I have > it attached to, but from time to time I see what I assume as vt100 > control codes in the output stream. I assumed that that unit used > vt100 emulation out of the box, and that the vax console would go > this way as well, but perhaps I'm wrong. It could be that the vax is > vt52 some other terminal type by default, or that the 1300 does > vt102, or vt220... I assume you're running VMS? What exactly are you seeing? It's possible (even likely) that you're seeing overruns. Try dropping the baud rate, just experimentally, to see if the problem goes away. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From microcode at zoho.com Wed Jun 13 05:29:52 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:29:52 +0000 Subject: seeking ATT PC 7300 keyboard caps...letter C and Reset/Break In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201206131030.q5DATv3U036519@billy.ezwind.net> On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:47:31 +1000 Nigel Williams wrote: > Just acquired a PC 7300 and as I am cursed with always incomplete > keyboards would be interested if anyone has spare keycaps for it > please. > > I am missing the letter C keycap and the Reset/Break keycap. > > Example picture: > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Att-3b1.JPG > > I can offer VT100-style keycaps as a trade or paypal. Clickykeyboards.com would be a place to check for this if nobody on the list can source them. Send him an email if you don't see it on his site. He's a good guy, I've done business with him before. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 08:07:12 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 09:07:12 -0400 Subject: Available VAX In-Reply-To: <4FD82A74.6060609@polibyte.com> References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com> <4FD82A74.6060609@polibyte.com> Message-ID: > Although I don't have experience with freight shipping, I'm willing to > try it it someone is interested in the system but cannot pick it up. > You'd need to cover the cost. If I can't find a taker soon I fear this > system will end up in the scrap heap, as my dad wants it gone and I > don't have the space for it. How soon is soon? -- Will From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Jun 13 08:22:24 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:22:24 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... In-Reply-To: <60F7C83E-3C40-4545-A1DD-124412CC191B@gmail.com> References: <60F7C83E-3C40-4545-A1DD-124412CC191B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sheeesh! Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Benson Sent: 12 June 2012 19:40 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... On 12 Jun 2012, at 14:06, Gene Buckle wrote: > Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards. Pretty slick: > > http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster I have a project lined up for RetroChallenge 2012 to do a 4-machine SimH VAX cluster using Raspberry Pi but this guy beat me to it on the back of me only having 1 board. I wonder if he;d want to co-op on the project and teach me about VMScluster ;) -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From bryan.pope at comcast.net Wed Jun 13 08:29:19 2012 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (bryan.pope at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:29:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Fox TV shows (was: interesting Quora post on Marklar) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1590030023.65977.1339594158062.JavaMail.root@sz0028a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "cctalk" Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 1:15:42 AM Subject: Fox TV shows (was: interesting Quora post on Marklar) In article , Gene Buckle writes: >> > Never heard of Fringe? >> > >> I'll see your Fringe and raise you a Firefly. :) >Firefly + Fringe = Fringe, >i.e. Firely is noise compared to Fringe's signal >Firefly is *WAY* overrated for what it was. Heresy! You obviously are a purple belly. Cheers, Bryan From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 08:33:44 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:33:44 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12 June 2012 14:06, Gene Buckle wrote: > Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards. ?Pretty slick: > > http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster I thought that was pretty elite, as one might say, myself - and Tweeted it, where it's now spreading quite well. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From md.benson at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 08:43:22 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:43:22 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... In-Reply-To: <32774934.67626.1339594536815.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcbev13> References: <60F7C83E-3C40-4545-A1DD-124412CC191B@gmail.com> <32774934.67626.1339594536815.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcbev13> Message-ID: <-2777647571068331104@unknownmsgid> On 13 Jun 2012, at 14:26, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Sheeesh! To clarify, I'm not so much bitter that he 'got there first', just that I couldn't do it yet because I only have 1 board. I'd have started by now but I have no more boards. I am thinking about using my Atom PC and VIA PC as nodes until I have more boards bu that's not ideal, although I can run 2 nodes on the Atom. I have a LOT of reading and learning to do before I can even start so I can't exactly complain about him beating me to the post :P -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From md.benson at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 08:49:30 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:49:30 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... In-Reply-To: <14364190.60883.1339595035214.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcgd5> References: <14364190.60883.1339595035214.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcgd5> Message-ID: <-9129299584814251327@unknownmsgid> On 13 Jun 2012, at 14:40, Liam Proven wrote: > On 12 June 2012 14:06, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards. Pretty slick: >> >> http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster > > I thought that was pretty elite, as one might say, myself - and > Tweeted it, where it's now spreading quite well. I hope you tweet about mine, I will be blogging it as I go and posting video hopefully so plenty of interest! :) Follow @DECtecInfo :) Hopefully mine will have more nodes and will be rack-mountable with ports to the outside world... maybe ;) -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 09:01:16 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:01:16 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... In-Reply-To: <-9129299584814251327@unknownmsgid> References: <14364190.60883.1339595035214.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcgd5> <-9129299584814251327@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On 13 June 2012 14:49, Mark Benson wrote: > On 13 Jun 2012, at 14:40, Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 12 June 2012 14:06, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards. ?Pretty slick: >>> >>> http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster >> >> I thought that was pretty elite, as one might say, myself - and >> Tweeted it, where it's now spreading quite well. > > I hope you tweet about mine, I will be blogging it as I go and posting > video hopefully so plenty of interest! :) Follow @DECtecInfo :) Roger wilco. > Hopefully mine will have more nodes and will be rack-mountable with > ports to the outside world... maybe ;) O_o -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 09:45:33 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 07:45:33 -0700 Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout In-Reply-To: <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook> References: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com>,<131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > > > Dear sirs, > > As many of you may know, it is next to impossible to find something > apple-related in Brazil, and even worse to //c. Of course I want to put a > memory expansion on it, but these are rare, and (insert expletive here) > expensive. I want to roll my own, but I was unable to find a memory > expansion bus pinout on the net. Any tips? > > Thanks > Alexandre Souza > > --- Hi Is the //c connector any different than a IIe? Dwight From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 09:58:44 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 11:58:44 -0300 Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout References: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com>, <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <176901cd4975$0e78ee20$6400a8c0@tababook> > Is the //c connector any different than a IIe? AFAIK yes. At least the connector type (board edge in IIe, pin header in IIc) but I just discovered my IIc is the first version without the internal memory expansion connector...Project aborted :( From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 13 10:02:34 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 08:02:34 -0700 Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout In-Reply-To: References: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com>, <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FD8AB8A.6070201@brouhaha.com> dwight elvey wrote: > Is the //c connector any different than a IIe? Yes. And IIRC, the //c+ connector is different than the //c connector. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 10:24:43 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 08:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: <84087A8EACC84FB9844E13B895D8BDD5@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <1339601083.2617.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/13/12, TeoZ wrote: > I have no clue what they were used for. When I got my > MicroVAX I looked around for months and found a couple MJJ > cables and some VT-525s plus keyboards so I just use them > without adapters. Those adapters were in the box with the > cables so I snagged them too (recycler). Adapters to go from DB25 to "RJ45" [1] connectors are very, very common - however there is no standard pinout for RS232 on RJ45. When you get such adapters new, they are sold as kits - the RJ45 jack has wires coming from it, crimped onto pins that are left loose. You are required to plug the pins into the DB25 in the required configuration. As such, when you find used adapters, they're likely to be in any possible configuration - you'll have to pop them apart and see how they're wired, and rewire where necessary. On the subject of MMJ - they are physically the same size as a 6p6c modular plug, so you can easily file the clip off such a plug and use it in an MMJ jack - it won't secure in, of course, but it'll work. Not that MMJ's stay in particularly well as it is - that stupid offset clip means that the connector sits in at an angle sometimes, and then occasionally makes poor contact. The only real MMJ cable I have has issues plugging into my MicroVax 3900's console port - which is slightly damaged from corrosion from the battery. It'll randomly stop working, and you have to remove and reinsert it. The filed-down 6p6c plug doesn't have this problem. DEC had lots of great ideas. MMJ was most definitely not one of them. Heh. -Ian [1] Yes, I know that "RJ45" refers to a specific wiring of a particular Registered Jack, not the 8p8c connector itself. But the tech industry has standardized on referring to 8p8c modular plugs and jacks as RJ45 - regardless of the term's initial meaning. This is similar to referring to 9 pin DSUB connectors as DB9 - despite the shell size not being B, it's E - the correct name is DE9. But the majority of the industry calls that connector a DB9. "Common usage" and "exact, correct, technical term" aren't always the same thing. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 13 13:11:31 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:11:31 -0600 Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Kevin Reynolds writes: > I have looked through bitsavers and some other old vax manual repositories > online and I haven't found a manual for the DEC VT1300. Did you try looking here: These aren't all in the manx database. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 13 12:48:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:48:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <4FD759FB.26518.130B53F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 12, 12 03:02:19 pm Message-ID: [Number of bits required for SECDED] > I think he meant +1 instead of -1 in the equation. So 5 bits, not 3. > But I assumed that he'd just copied it wrong from memory or source. OK, that makes a lot of sense, and I agree it's possible to do SECDED on 16 bit word with 5 'extra' bits, as indeed these Philips boards seem to do. I couldn't see how to do it with onyl 3 extra bits, and indeed it appears it can't be done. It was not my intention to insult anyone, of course. But if somebody posts something that I can't figure out, I will ask about it. Most of the time I'll be the idiot for not being able to figure it out, but by having it explained I'll learn something. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 13 12:57:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:57:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 12, 12 03:11:26 pm Message-ID: > I take "clone" at its face value the same way as I view "pregnant". > You either are or you're something else. An Eagle 1600 runs MS-DOS > but is not a PC clone. Like you, I use the word 'clone'to mean a machine with the same hardware interface and same ROM BIOS calls as the IBM machine it claims to be a lcone of, and thus it runs the same OS (yuo can boot said machine from a disk that will boot the IBM machine) and which runs the same software. Of coruse soem early clones _did_ have incompatibilities. I tend to use the term 'IBM incompatible' for an 80x86-based personal computer that is not compatible with the similar IBM machine. Things like the Rainbow, HP150, Apricot, etc. There are several levels of incompatibility -- the hardware may be differnt (so that programs that 'hit the mrtal' won;t run, the BIOS calls may be different (so that programs thtat use said calls won't run), etc. Of coruse ther are plenty of other machines that are not compatible with any IBM, but I don;'t tend to refer to thsoe as 'IBM incompatibles'. I've also been known to use the term 'IBM compatible' in a jocular way, for example when I said I'd jsut been given an 'IBM compatible ethernet interface'. This happened to be a Storagetek unit to link to an IBM 370 channel. As for the original question, IIRC if the IBM bios fails to find a boot device, it calls a particular software interrupt, which is set to the cold start point of the BASIC ROM. Whether this ROM would work on not-100%-compatibles depends on just what that ROM does about directly accessign hardwre. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 13 12:59:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:59:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: from "Kevin Reynolds" at Jun 12, 12 04:14:04 pm Message-ID: > > > > > Can you stil lget tyhose LED adapters? At one time just about every PC=20 > > shop sold them=2C but now=2C since RS232 is out of fashion=2C I=3B've nto= > seen=20 > > them on sale for several years.=20 > >=20 > I do have one of these devices in a 25 pin personality. My problem wasn't = I'ev never seen RS232 tersters or breakout boxes with anything other than DB25 conenctors. Were there ever ones with DE9 connectors, for example? > that I didn't know what pin was what on the system=2C the problem was what = > pin was what on the connectors I wanted to buy. Sure. The point of my (and others) post was that if you get _any_ adapter you can then use the RS232 tester to figure otu which is TxD and which is RxD, and if necessary make up an adapter using easy-to-get DB25 conenctors to lin kit to your terminal. That might not be as neat as having the right adapter, but it will get the thing working. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 13 13:03:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 19:03:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Jun 12, 12 07:55:42 pm Message-ID: > Plenty of PCs support ECC RAM. Generally on the server/workstation > side of things, but I'd hardly call it uncommon. While a machien designed as a server might well have the same architecture as a PC, and be able to run the same software, I am not sure I'd call it a PC :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 13 13:26:07 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 19:26:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 13, 12 01:08:04 am Message-ID: > > > Can you still get those LED adapters? At one time just about every PC > > shop sold them, but now, since RS232 is out of fashion, I've nto seen > > them on sale for several years. > > PC shops sell new PCs and games, that's about it. The world's 'Twas always the way. I very rarely go to such places since they're unlikely to have anything I want. Even when my PC wasn't _quite_ os old-fashioned, they enver had the cable or wahtever that I wanted... I can rememebr one time I visitied such a palce, they had a few shelves for 'operating systems'. All that was there was the installation and upgrade kits for Windows. They sold Linux, but classed it as a 'book' (!). Hmmm... > marketplace has moved to eBay. You can get them (brand new of > course...a lot of people think something is "used" or "old" if the sales > venue is eBay) all day long, cheap, on eBay. OK... > > > It's not hard to make one, but... > > ...but a complete waste of time, unless you've got nothing better to do. Well ,that depends... It's not a waste of time if they;re no logner avaialble. And the one I got was unrleiable from new due to an excessive numebr of dry joints inside. I resoldered the lot and it's been fine for getting on for 20 years. Resodlering one probably takes less time than making one, but... > > The other trikc is to see what flow control lines are being driven, and > > it noting works, to try loppign them back to what they normally pair with > > (e.g. if pin 4 -- RTS -- is being driven by a device and you can't get it > > to sand anything, try connecting RTS to CTS (4 to 5)). You migth end up > > with a thing that drops data due to buffer overrun from time to time, but > > you sort that out once you've got it sending something. > > I literally cannot remember the last time I had to do anything with > other than 2, 3, and 7. Even one of the controller designs I inherited I can. It was a couple of months back. I'd bought and then repaired a piece of test gear [1] which had a helpfully-labelled 'RS232 (DTE)' connector on the back. And it was clear from the setup options on the display how to make it use the RS232 port rather than the GPIB prot, and how to set the baud rate. So I did, and found it would send nothing. Strapping the handshake lines back got it to output a prompt to the terminal. Alas I've not got any further, I can't figure out what commands to send. [1] A rather nice telephone line simulator. We talked about those here soem time back as a device for woriking with and testing old modems. I decided I wanted somthing I could use for this and came up wit ha sort-of design. I then foudn there were 3 options, all of which would cost aobut the same : Make the design I'd come up with and debug it Buy a cheap, new device for the purpose, which wouldn't do anything more and would probably be hard to repair if it failed Buy a non-working professional line simulator and repair it. On the grounds the last would provide me with the best device in the end, I went that route. If I'd not been able to repair it, I'd guessed that many of the bits in it would be useful for my homebrew idea. As it happened, it took me quite some time to find the fault and then a few pence worth of parts (a couple of LM311s and an LM337) and a few minutes to fix it. Well, there are 6 microprocessors and a total of over 200 ICs spred over 10 PCBs in the darn thing ;-) -tony From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 14:04:49 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seeking ATT PC 7300 keyboard caps...letter C and Reset/Break In-Reply-To: <201206131030.q5DATv3U036519@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201206131030.q5DATv3U036519@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1339614289.60208.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> perhaps th6300 used siimilar keycaps. Tecnically I have a beat up Xerox 6060 k/b (also made by Olivetti), to go w/my beatup 6060, but I'm not ready to give it up yet. Like a fool I threw the b/w monitor out. ________________________________ From: "microcode at zoho.com" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 6:29 AM Subject: Re: seeking ATT PC 7300 keyboard caps...letter C and Reset/Break On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:47:31 +1000 Nigel Williams wrote: > Just acquired a PC 7300 and as I am cursed with always incomplete > keyboards would be interested if anyone has spare keycaps for it > please. > > I am missing the letter C keycap and the Reset/Break keycap. > > Example picture: > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Att-3b1.JPG > > I can offer VT100-style keycaps as a trade or paypal. Clickykeyboards.com would be a place to check for this if nobody on the list can source them. Send him an email if you don't see it on his site. He's a good guy, I've done business with him before. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 14:20:16 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1339528708.1267.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1339615216.21817.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> On 12 Jun 2012 at 12:18, Chris Tofu wrote: I take "clone" at its face value the same way as I view "pregnant".? You either are or you're something else.? An Eagle 1600 runs MS-DOS but is not a PC clone. C: Well I did use clone in my op. It's often used in different ways. I hadn't thought people would always revert to giving the most obvious answer to a question. Of course if you made a totally identical clone mobo of a 5150/5160, the roms would work. My question was (or should have been) given? an empty socket (as is the case on a 5150/5160 mobo, rarely anywhere else) or a means to extend that bus to accept additional roms via a plug in board, would you expect BASIC roms to work in say a Tandy 2000, AT $ T 6300, Compaq Portable (original), Zenith Z-100/120, etc. Wouldn't most of the lower level stuff be BIOS driven? ?And while there are not degrees of pregnant, there are degrees of clonage. Looser usage albeit. Did Compaq *not* seek to clone the operation of an IBM PC? From a s/w vantage, it most certainly was a clone. But I'll agree a true clone is mostly and exact one. ?Did you mean the Columbia MPC1600? I don't personally know of an Eagle 1600, unless you're referring to a little seen portable unit. But I don't follow the rest of your post--perhaps if you used shorter sentences... C: Ok. I will. Next time. Promise. No more. Then two. Words between. Periods. Period. From db at db.net Wed Jun 13 14:46:28 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:46:28 -0500 Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: References: <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120613194628.GA97265@night.db.net> On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 06:57:14PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > I take "clone" at its face value the same way as I view "pregnant". > > You either are or you're something else. An Eagle 1600 runs MS-DOS > > but is not a PC clone. The amusing thing about BASIC was the assumption of programmers that low ram was available as scratch memory. poke peek poke style. The moment it ran on a 3rd party vendor clone BASIC, it would often (not always) blow up. COMPAQ and Hyperion Dynalogic solved this by relocating the BASIC at run time to high memory. ick ick icky poo. But amusing. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 14:53:18 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: References: <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 12, 12 03:11:26 pm Message-ID: <1339617198.84977.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> As for the original question, IIRC if the IBM bios fails to find a boot device, it calls a particular software interrupt, which is set to the cold start point of the BASIC ROM. Whether this ROM would work on not-100%-compatibles depends on just what that ROM does about directly accessign hardwre. -tony ?C: But in general what does the IBM 5150/5160 specific BASIC rom do regarding addressing specific h/w? That's the crux of the matter I guess. If I could run TI Pro GW-BASIC on my XP laptop (several years ago) to whatever degree, something tells me BASIC accesses the h/w via BIOS or DOS calls. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 15:07:21 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: <20120613194628.GA97265@night.db.net> References: <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120613194628.GA97265@night.db.net> Message-ID: <1339618041.97226.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Diane Bruce COMPAQ and Hyperion Dynalogic solved this by relocating the BASIC at run time to high memory. ick ick icky poo. But amusing. C: High in DOS memory, or otherwise? Some computers made 768k or even 896k available to DOS. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 13 15:23:58 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:23:58 -0600 Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: <1339615216.21817.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339528708.1267.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com> <1339615216.21817.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1339615216.21817.YahooMailNeo at web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Chris Tofu writes: > On 12 Jun 2012 at 12:18, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > I take "clone" at its face value the same way as I view "pregnant". > You either are or you're something else. An Eagle 1600 runs MS-DOS > but is not a PC clone. > > C: Well I did use clone in my op. It's often used in different ways. I > hadn't thought people would always revert to giving the most obvious > answer to a question. Of course if you made a totally identical clone > mobo of a 5150/5160, the roms would work. My question was (or should > have been) given an empty socket (as is the case on a 5150/5160 mobo, > rarely anywhere else) or a means to extend that bus to accept additional > roms via a plug in board, would you expect BASIC roms to work in say a > Tandy 2000, AT $ T 6300, Compaq Portable (original), Zenith Z-100/120, > etc. Wouldn't most of the lower level stuff be BIOS driven? > > And while there are not degrees of pregnant, there are degrees of clonage. L ooser usage albeit. Did Compaq *not* seek to clone the operation of an IBM PC? >From a s/w vantage, it most certainly was a clone. But I'll agree a true clone is mostly and exact one. > > Did you mean the Columbia MPC1600? I don't personally know of an Eagle 1600, unless you're referring to a little seen portable unit. > > But I don't follow the rest of your post--perhaps if you used shorter > sentences... > > C: Ok. I will. Next time. Promise. No more. Then two. Words between. Periods. Period. > Did noone ever teach you how to quote conversations in email? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jun 13 15:44:03 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:44:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201206132044.QAA02317@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> that I didn't know what pin was what on the system, the problem was >> what pin was what on the connectors I wanted to buy. > Sure. The point of my (and others) post was that if you get _any_ > adapter you can then use the RS232 tester to figure otu which is TxD > and which is RxD, and if necessary make up an adapter using > easy-to-get DB25 conenctors to lin kit to your terminal. That might > not be as neat as having the right adapter, but it will get the thing > working. ...usually. I've seen two things which could break this. (1) Some devices require some of the modem control signals in order to operate at all. Hooking up just TxD, RxD, and GND won't be enough in such cases. (2) I've even seen one device which powers down its transmitter unless it sees at least one input pin being driven. This is extremely annoying, because when you go in with a meter (or lights) to figure out which pins are being driven you find that none of them are. It also means that you can't test it by just shorting TxD to RxD even if the software is configured to ignore modem control signals. Mercifully, such devices seem to be rare; I've seen only one, out of all the serial ports I've dealt with, as far as I know. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 15:56:20 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:56:20 -0400 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I'ev never seen RS232 tersters or breakout boxes with anything other than > DB25 conenctors. Were there ever ones with DE9 connectors, for example? I have one, don't know the original vendor, but it's badged by Black Box. DE9s on both ends. I carry it around with DE9-DB25 adapters. Very compact. For those that attended VCF East 8.0, I used it to figure out what adapters would be required to hook up a VT420 to a USB serial dongle on my laptop so I could give my demonstration of Scott Adams adventures and my own ZDungeon more of a vintage feel than you'd get on a 1-year-old Dell. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 13 16:54:39 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:54:39 -0700 Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: <1339615216.21817.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339528708.1267.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com>, <1339615216.21817.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FD8A9AF.7712.153C811@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jun 2012 at 12:20, Chris Tofu wrote: > ?Did you mean the Columbia MPC1600? I don't personally know of an > Eagle 1600, unless you're referring to a little seen portable unit. Nope--I'm referring to the 1982 8086 system brought out by Eagle Computer. IIRC, the MS-DOS floppy format was 800K (8x1024 byte tracks). Not many probably survive, because it was followed in a few months by the utterly-PC-compatible Eagle PC. At one time, Eagle was the darling of retailers--with the later Z80-based models, you opened the packing box, took out the computer, plugged it in and turned it on. Everything was pre-loaded and configured. The word processing program offered with the Eagles was Spellbinder--a very fine bit of software. Eagle used to hold public contests to determine what was the fastest a first-time user could get the hardware up and running. I seem to recall times around 45 seconds. If you don't know the whole story of Eagle and Dennis Barnhart and the bright red Ferrari, you owe it to yourself to read up on it. There were other 8086-based clone-ish systems at the time of the 5150. One was the Stearns PC that came with a copy of MS-DOS, but also something called ST-DOS that addressed a number of compatibility issues with the 5150. Call it a semi-clone. As far as ROM sockets, well, that's a system-by-system thing. Many Taiwanese clones had 5 or 6 28-pin ROM sockets for 64Kb ROMs. Later ones went to one or two 256Kb sockets. You could take one one of those and play with the PROM binaries a bit to get IBM BASIC to map in at F6000 and be good to go. --Chuck --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 13 17:32:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:32:00 -0700 Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: <4FD8A9AF.7712.153C811@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1339528708.1267.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <1339615216.21817.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <4FD8A9AF.7712.153C811@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FD8B270.5256.175F95D@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jun 2012 at 14:54, I wrote: > IIRC, the MS-DOS floppy format was 800K (8x1024 byte tracks) More dried-out wetware bugs... The Eagle 1600 used 5.25 floppies formatted to 80 cylinders, 2 sides, 5 sectors of 1024 bytes. 800K. --Chuck From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Jun 13 17:58:28 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 00:58:28 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <4FD79D02.25575.2368905@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FD79D02.25575.2368905@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120613225828.GB21035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 07:48:18PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Jun 2012 at 19:55, David Riley wrote: > > > Of course, "working reliably" does involve a lot more than just > > eliminating bit errors from cosmic rays, I'll give you that one. > > I thought it interesting that the CDC 6600/CYBER 70 series did not > have any memory error checking whatsoever (the old "Parity is for > farmers" quote), but that the CYBER 170 series had semiconductor > memory and SECDED. > > >From my recollection, if the old systems passed deadstart > diagnostics, the chance of seeing a memory error that day was very > small. > > Was early semiconductor memory less reliable than core? I don't > recall that part. Well, from what I'm currently reading in "Dealers of Lightning", very early semiconductor memory was quite a bit less reliable than core, coupled with miserable yields. Presumably both improved reasonably quickly. It had the advantage of being smaller, cheaper and faster, though. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 13 19:43:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 17:43:37 -0700 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <20120613225828.GB21035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: , <4FD79D02.25575.2368905@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120613225828.GB21035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4FD8D149.16353.1EE7A9B@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jun 2012 at 0:58, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Well, from what I'm currently reading in "Dealers of Lightning", very > early semiconductor memory was quite a bit less reliable than core, > coupled with miserable yields. Presumably both improved reasonably > quickly. It had the advantage of being smaller, cheaper and faster, > though. Wasn't the commodity DRAM chip back then a 22-pin 0.400" wide 3- supply device--2107? I think that almost everyone made them. Not a nice beast, IIRC, slow and power-hungry, with an inconvenient +12 chip enable. --Chuck From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Jun 13 20:12:16 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <4FD8D149.16353.1EE7A9B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4FD79D02.25575.2368905@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120613225828.GB21035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4FD8D149.16353.1EE7A9B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 17:43:37 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: P800 boards > > On 14 Jun 2012 at 0:58, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > >> Well, from what I'm currently reading in "Dealers of Lightning", very >> early semiconductor memory was quite a bit less reliable than core, >> coupled with miserable yields. Presumably both improved reasonably >> quickly. It had the advantage of being smaller, cheaper and faster, >> though. > > Wasn't the commodity DRAM chip back then a 22-pin 0.400" wide 3- > supply device--2107? I think that almost everyone made them. > > Not a nice beast, IIRC, slow and power-hungry, with an inconvenient > +12 chip enable. > > --Chuck > And strangely enough, still available... (NTE2107) Peter Wallace From ICS65 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 13 20:26:45 2012 From: ICS65 at sbcglobal.net (George Wiegand) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 21:26:45 -0400 Subject: Ukraine? References: <4FD7DE78.8050800@conus.info> Message-ID: My wife is from Kiev, and I was there for a month in 2002. That's the extent of my Ukraine connection. ,George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Yurichev" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 8:27 PM Subject: Ukraine? > Hi. > > Just interesting, is there any lurkers/classic computers fans from > Ukraine here in this mailing list? From jon at jonworld.com Wed Jun 13 21:05:44 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:05:44 -0400 Subject: Ukraine? In-Reply-To: References: <4FD7DE78.8050800@conus.info> Message-ID: > > Hi. >> >> Just interesting, is there any lurkers/classic computers fans from >> Ukraine here in this mailing list? > > My family left the Kiev area in 1915 or so, after the Cossacks raided their store and the Czar attempted to conscript the men of the family into his army. Sorry I can't be of more help :( From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 21:15:17 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 19:15:17 -0700 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> <083901cd422d$5fcb4150$1f61c3f0$@ntlworld.com> <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: I bought a couple of these BC19S cables to have as spares for $18 each, including shipping. Haven't seen a cheaper price recently. http://www.ebay.com/itm/300649403425 Physically it looks pretty much the same as the BC18Z, but maybe slightly improved. The block on the monitor end of the cable with the keyboard and mouse jacks looks the same. But the R,G,B leads coming out of the block look almost twice as long and thicker. In my opinion that is an improvement since on my BC18Z the shorter and thinner leads appear to have some strain on them when attached to my monitor and one of the leads has a frayed outer shield where it attaches to the connector block. I haven't actually connected the BC19S between my VCB02 and monitor yet to verify identical electrical functionality with the BC18Z. -Glen On Jun 5, 2012 8:43 AM, "N0body H0me" wrote: > > So, what's the difference between a BC19s and a BC18z? > My suspicion is that it's either mechanical, or cosmetic > if they're electrically equivalent . . . > > Jeff > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > Sent: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:38:07 +0100 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > > > > For the record, it turns out that the BC19S cable also works on a VCB02. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 13 21:47:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 19:47:35 -0700 Subject: Ukraine? In-Reply-To: References: <4FD7DE78.8050800@conus.info>, , Message-ID: <4FD8EE57.24064.25FF823@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jun 2012 at 22:05, Jonathan Katz wrote: > My family left the Kiev area in 1915 or so, after the Cossacks raided > their store and the Czar attempted to conscript the men of the family > into his army. Sorry I can't be of more help :( Not Ukraine, but my father's father didn't escape Tsarist conscription. He came to this country in 1918. --Chuck From fast79ta at yahoo.com Wed Jun 13 22:22:27 2012 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 21:22:27 -0600 Subject: SCSI-1 DB37 Message-ID: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com> Does any one have a pinout of the DB37 SCSI connector? Might be what my old scanner has on it. Especially if all the ground pins and shields line up. Thanks! From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jun 13 22:50:08 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 23:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SCSI-1 DB37 In-Reply-To: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com> References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201206140350.XAA06202@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Does any one have a pinout of the DB37 SCSI connector? Is there such a thing? I've never seen a DB37, and I've never seen SCSI on a 37-pin connector of any sort. (Not that either one proves anything, really, though I do suspect that what you've got is a DC37.) The only thing with fewer than 50 pins I've seen SCSI on is Apple's use of a DB25 on some Macs. > Might be what my old scanner has on it. Especially if all the ground > pins and shields line up. If there is a standard - even de-facto standard - pinout for SCSI on a DC37 I'd be interested in it, to add to my collection of pinouts. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 22:55:37 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:55:37 -0500 Subject: rl02a vs rl02 whats the differance between the 2 Message-ID: just noticed my 3 rl02's i have ones a rl02a witch has a metal front panel instead of plastic what els is different not seeing anything on a quick google From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 13 23:58:45 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 21:58:45 -0700 Subject: SCSI-1 DB37 In-Reply-To: <201206140350.XAA06202@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>, <201206140350.XAA06202@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4FD90D15.1335.2D8117F@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jun 2012 at 23:50, Mouse wrote: > If there is a standard - even de-facto standard - pinout for SCSI on a > DC37 I'd be interested in it, to add to my collection of pinouts. Well, the controller (PC2} for Bernoulli drives is SCSI and uses a DC37M on the controller end, but I doubt that it's standard. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 14 00:05:42 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:05:42 -0700 Subject: SCSI-1 DB37 In-Reply-To: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com> References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FD90EB6.4419.2DE6D6D@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jun 2012 at 21:22, Joe wrote: > Does any one have a pinout of the DB37 SCSI connector? > > > > Might be what my old scanner has on it. Especially if all the ground > pins and shields line up. Try the old Novell SCSI pinout: ftp://ftp.downloads.black-box.de/faxback/17000/17972.PDF --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 14 00:13:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCSI-1 DB37 In-Reply-To: <201206140350.XAA06202@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com> <201206140350.XAA06202@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120613221129.T45871@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Jun 2012, Mouse wrote: > Is there such a thing? I've never seen a DB37, and I've never seen > SCSI on a 37-pin connector of any sort. (Not that either one proves > anything, really, though I do suspect that what you've got is a DC37.) > The only thing with fewer than 50 pins I've seen SCSI on is Apple's use > of a DB25 on some Macs. . . . also on Trantor (later Adaptec) "Mini-SCSI" T338? Seems to be similar to the Apple pinout, except for "TERMPOWR" From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 14 00:38:57 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 01:38:57 -0400 Subject: SCSI-1 DB37 In-Reply-To: <4FD90D15.1335.2D8117F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>, <201206140350.XAA06202@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FD90D15.1335.2D8117F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FD978F1.2000808@atarimuseum.com> You sure its SCSI and not SASI ? Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Jun 2012 at 23:50, Mouse wrote: > > >> If there is a standard - even de-facto standard - pinout for SCSI on a >> DC37 I'd be interested in it, to add to my collection of pinouts. >> > > Well, the controller (PC2} for Bernoulli drives is SCSI and uses a > DC37M on the controller end, but I doubt that it's standard. > > --Chuck > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 14 02:55:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 03:55:45 -0400 Subject: seeking ATT PC 7300 keyboard caps...letter C and Reset/Break In-Reply-To: <1339614289.60208.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201206131030.q5DATv3U036519@billy.ezwind.net> <1339614289.60208.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FD99901.4090309@neurotica.com> On 06/13/2012 03:04 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > perhaps th6300 used siimilar keycaps. No, 6300 key caps are completely different from those of the 7300. > Tecnically I have a beat up > Xerox 6060 k/b (also made by Olivetti), to go w/my beatup 6060, but > I'm not ready to give it up yet. Like a fool I threw the b/w monitor > out. That was...erm..."ill advised". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tpresence at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 03:32:01 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 02:32:01 -0600 Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around In-Reply-To: <4FD837DD.6050807@neurotica.com> References: , <4FD837DD.6050807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: The 3900/uvax III is running VMS. The terminal doesnt have an OS, its just in DTE mode. I haven't figured out how to change the terminals settings. This is why I was looking for the manual. Kevin > Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 02:49:01 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around > > On 06/12/2012 07:12 PM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > > I have looked through bitsavers and some other old vax manual > > repositories online and I haven't found a manual for the DEC VT1300. > > I did an installation and service manual for the VR320 monitors I > > have, but they only cover the display. I have worked out alot of > > details about the vt1300 system, and have gotten one working 100%, > > but haven't figured out what terminal emulation the terminal > > personality of the unit uses. It works 95% with the vax 3900 I have > > it attached to, but from time to time I see what I assume as vt100 > > control codes in the output stream. I assumed that that unit used > > vt100 emulation out of the box, and that the vax console would go > > this way as well, but perhaps I'm wrong. It could be that the vax is > > vt52 some other terminal type by default, or that the 1300 does > > vt102, or vt220... > > I assume you're running VMS? > > What exactly are you seeing? It's possible (even likely) that you're > seeing overruns. Try dropping the baud rate, just experimentally, to > see if the problem goes away. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From jjacocks at mac.com Wed Jun 13 15:25:51 2012 From: jjacocks at mac.com (J. Alexander Jacocks) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:25:51 -0400 Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout In-Reply-To: <4FD8AB8A.6070201@brouhaha.com> References: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com> <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FD8AB8A.6070201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > dwight elvey wrote: >> >> ?Is the //c connector any different than a IIe? > > > Yes. ?And IIRC, the //c+ connector is different than the //c connector. It would be a lovely thing to have someone make a few of these. I've been looking for a memory expansion board for my IIc+, in the USA, for months now, with no result. The best way that I have heard to find boards is to blindly buy IIc and IIc+ units, and hope one is installed. - Alex From tpresence at hotmail.com Wed Jun 13 19:45:56 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:45:56 -0600 Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Strangely enough, they seem to have everything EXCEPT the vt1300 :( > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:11:31 -0600 > > > In article , > Kevin Reynolds writes: > > > I have looked through bitsavers and some other old vax manual repositories > > online and I haven't found a manual for the DEC VT1300. > > Did you try looking here: > > > > These aren't all in the manx database. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jun 14 06:24:24 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 13:24:24 +0200 Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: References: <20120613225828.GB21035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4FD8D149.16353.1EE7A9B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120614112424.GC16852@beast.freibergnet.de> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Wed, 13 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 17:43:37 -0700 > >From: Chuck Guzis > >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >Subject: Re: P800 boards > > > >On 14 Jun 2012 at 0:58, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > > >>Well, from what I'm currently reading in "Dealers of Lightning", very > >>early semiconductor memory was quite a bit less reliable than core, > >>coupled with miserable yields. Presumably both improved reasonably > >>quickly. It had the advantage of being smaller, cheaper and faster, > >>though. > > > >Wasn't the commodity DRAM chip back then a 22-pin 0.400" wide 3- > >supply device--2107? I think that almost everyone made them. > > > >Not a nice beast, IIRC, slow and power-hungry, with an inconvenient > >+12 chip enable. > > > >--Chuck > > > > > And strangely enough, still available... (NTE2107) > > Peter Wallace ..have 2 or 3 Boxes of the russian equivalent K565RU1A, ~ 100pcs just in case someone needs them. Gold/Pink Ceramics. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 06:50:46 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 08:50:46 -0300 Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout References: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com> <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FD8AB8A.6070201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1f5a01cd4a24$265b7b20$6400a8c0@tababook> > It would be a lovely thing to have someone make a few of these. I've > been looking for a memory expansion board for my IIc+, in the USA, for > months now, with no result. The best way that I have heard to find > boards is to blindly buy IIc and IIc+ units, and hope one is > installed. If you go this route, I'd love to have one of your main boards...Mine is fried and looks like one of the PALs. I already xchanged the dedicated ICs with a //e and found no TTLs fried :'( From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 08:27:42 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 09:27:42 -0400 Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout In-Reply-To: <1f5a01cd4a24$265b7b20$6400a8c0@tababook> References: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com> <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FD8AB8A.6070201@brouhaha.com> <1f5a01cd4a24$265b7b20$6400a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <637C40A3-D363-4C74-AF3D-359C8A812674@gmail.com> On Jun 14, 2012, at 7:50 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> It would be a lovely thing to have someone make a few of these. I've >> been looking for a memory expansion board for my IIc+, in the USA, for >> months now, with no result. The best way that I have heard to find >> boards is to blindly buy IIc and IIc+ units, and hope one is >> installed. > > If you go this route, I'd love to have one of your main boards...Mine is fried and looks like one of the PALs. I already xchanged the dedicated ICs with a //e and found no TTLs fried :'( Are the PAL equations known? I'd be happy to burn a few GALs with equivalent equations and send them your way for the cost of postage. - Dave From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 08:34:22 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:34:22 -0300 Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout References: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com> <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FD8AB8A.6070201@brouhaha.com> <1f5a01cd4a24$265b7b20$6400a8c0@tababook> <637C40A3-D363-4C74-AF3D-359C8A812674@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20f701cd4a32$87e9a930$6400a8c0@tababook> >> If you go this route, I'd love to have one of your main boards...Mine >> is fried and looks like one of the PALs. I already xchanged the dedicated >> ICs with a //e and found no TTLs fried :'( > Are the PAL equations known? I'd be happy to burn a few GALs with > equivalent equations and send them your way for the cost of postage. Danke, Dave! But I have a PAL burner (Beeprog, from Elnec). The problem is exactely the equations :o) They are not known :( And I'd love to get a newer //c board, with the memory expansion pinout. I'm desiging a SRAM card for the //E and would love to adapt it for the //c Thanks a lot Alexandre :o) From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 14 09:39:25 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:39:25 -0400 Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout In-Reply-To: <20f701cd4a32$87e9a930$6400a8c0@tababook> References: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com> <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FD8AB8A.6070201@brouhaha.com> <1f5a01cd4a24$265b7b20$6400a8c0@tababook> <637C40A3-D363-4C74-AF3D-359C8A812674@gmail.com> <20f701cd4a32$87e9a930$6400a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FD9F79D.4080104@atarimuseum.com> Speaking of this.... How many of the LCD displays were made for the //c's??? I saw one at a friends house back in the 80's and was pretty impressed with it. Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> If you go this route, I'd love to have one of your main >>> boards...Mine is fried and looks like one of the PALs. I already >>> xchanged the dedicated ICs with a //e and found no TTLs fried :'( >> Are the PAL equations known? I'd be happy to burn a few GALs with >> equivalent equations and send them your way for the cost of postage. > > Danke, Dave! But I have a PAL burner (Beeprog, from Elnec). The > problem is exactely the equations :o) They are not known :( > > And I'd love to get a newer //c board, with the memory expansion > pinout. I'm desiging a SRAM card for the //E and would love to adapt > it for the //c > > Thanks a lot > Alexandre :o) From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 10:33:39 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 17:33:39 +0200 Subject: rl02a vs rl02 whats the differance between the 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Adrian Stoness" Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:55 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: rl02a vs rl02 whats the differance between the 2 > just noticed my 3 rl02's i have ones a rl02a witch has a metal front panel > instead of plastic what els is different not seeing anything on a quick > google For all I know (and have seen), the RL01 had a metal front without "RL01" printed on the front, and the RL02 had a plastic front with "RL02" printed on the front. I have never seen an RL02 with a metal front! Neither heard of RL02a. Cool ! greetz, - Henk, PA8PDP From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 14 10:45:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 11:45:09 -0400 Subject: rl02a vs rl02 whats the differance between the 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FDA0705.6010503@neurotica.com> On 06/14/2012 11:33 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> just noticed my 3 rl02's i have ones a rl02a witch has a metal front >> panel >> instead of plastic what els is different not seeing anything on a quick >> google > > For all I know (and have seen), the RL01 had a metal front without "RL01" > printed on the front, and the RL02 had a plastic front with "RL02" printed > on the front. I have several RL01s with plastic fronts that actually say "RL01" on them. I've seen the metal-front, unlabeled ones. I believe they are an older rev but am not certain. > I have never seen an RL02 with a metal front! Neither heard of RL02a. > Cool ! Me neither, very interesting. I'd sure like to know if there's any real difference. Adrian, can you shoot some pics of these RL02A drives? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 14 10:45:25 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 08:45:25 -0700 Subject: SCSI-1 DB37 In-Reply-To: <4FD978F1.2000808@atarimuseum.com> References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>, <4FD90D15.1335.2D8117F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FD978F1.2000808@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4FD9A4A5.31297.704B1@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jun 2012 at 1:38, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > You sure its SCSI and not SASI ? Dead sure--this goes to a dual 90MB unit--that I sometimes also interface to an Adaptec 2940 adapter. Far too late (90s) for SASI. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jun 14 11:16:02 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:16:02 -0600 Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: In article , Kevin Reynolds writes: > Strangely enough, they seem to have everything EXCEPT the vt1300 :( The 1300 is very similar to the 1200, but uses a different OS. You'll need a system that can supply the VAXELN operating system to the terminal. This article from Digital Technical Journal describes the X terminals made by DEC, including the VT1300: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 14 11:35:49 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 09:35:49 -0700 Subject: seeking ATT PC 7300 keyboard caps...letter C and Reset/Break In-Reply-To: <4FD99901.4090309@neurotica.com> References: <201206131030.q5DATv3U036519@billy.ezwind.net> <1339614289.60208.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FD99901.4090309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FDA12E5.6060705@brouhaha.com> On 06/13/2012 03:04 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > perhaps th6300 used siimilar keycaps. Dave McGuire wrote: > No, 6300 key caps are completely different from those of the 7300. Since the 7300 and 3B1 were made for AT&T by Convergent, it is more likely that the key caps might be the same as those for some other Convergent machine, such as the Personal Terminal 510A or 510D, also made for AT&T. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 14 12:06:28 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 13:06:28 -0400 Subject: SCSI-1 DB37 In-Reply-To: <4FD9A4A5.31297.704B1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>, <4FD90D15.1335.2D8117F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FD978F1.2000808@atarimuseum.com> <4FD9A4A5.31297.704B1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FDA1A14.1010809@atarimuseum.com> okay, just checking.... Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Jun 2012 at 1:38, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > >> You sure its SCSI and not SASI ? >> > > Dead sure--this goes to a dual 90MB unit--that I sometimes also > interface to an Adaptec 2940 adapter. Far too late (90s) for SASI. > > --Chuck > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 12:14:18 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 12:14:18 -0500 Subject: rl02a vs rl02 whats the differance between the 2 In-Reply-To: <4FDA0705.6010503@neurotica.com> References: <4FDA0705.6010503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: they all say rl02 on them one on the left is the one with a metal front http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7197/6929974463_78f10207a3_b.jpg i was looking at it last night checking the first intake filter witch needs replacing and noticed it was a metal front insted of plastic dunno why i didn't notice that befor but interesting the digital logo is embose and it apears to be a cast mold and not a sheet metal pressing i acquired this drive for cost of shipping with cables controllor card and a platter with rt11 4.0 on it of vintage-computer.com several months ago my other 2 drives came of ebay and need to be finished being cleaned as they came outa a pritty dirty radiator factory On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 06/14/2012 11:33 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > >> just noticed my 3 rl02's i have ones a rl02a witch has a metal front > >> panel > >> instead of plastic what els is different not seeing anything on a quick > >> google > > > > For all I know (and have seen), the RL01 had a metal front without "RL01" > > printed on the front, and the RL02 had a plastic front with "RL02" > printed > > on the front. > > I have several RL01s with plastic fronts that actually say "RL01" on > them. I've seen the metal-front, unlabeled ones. I believe they are an > older rev but am not certain. > > > I have never seen an RL02 with a metal front! Neither heard of RL02a. > > Cool ! > > Me neither, very interesting. I'd sure like to know if there's any > real difference. > > Adrian, can you shoot some pics of these RL02A drives? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 14 15:24:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:24:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: P800 boards In-Reply-To: <4FD8D149.16353.1EE7A9B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 13, 12 05:43:37 pm Message-ID: > > On 14 Jun 2012 at 0:58, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > > Well, from what I'm currently reading in "Dealers of Lightning", very > > early semiconductor memory was quite a bit less reliable than core, > > coupled with miserable yields. Presumably both improved reasonably > > quickly. It had the advantage of being smaller, cheaper and faster, > > though. > > Wasn't the commodity DRAM chip back then a 22-pin 0.400" wide 3- > supply device--2107? I think that almost everyone made them. 4K bits IIRC. Wasn't there a TMS4096 that was much the same thing? > > Not a nice beast, IIRC, slow and power-hungry, with an inconvenient > +12 chip enable. > I suspect it was regarded as a huch improvement over the 1103 IK*! DRAM. That thing was PMOS and has 16V logic levels on all pins (address, data, seelct, etc). Intel did make some level shifter ICs to go with it (3207 and 3208 I think), but from what I revall, they came out significantly later than the RAM itself. Oh, and the 1103 needed +16V and +19V power rails, not particularly useful for anything else in the machine. Mildly off-subject, but there was the 1103 and the 1103A. IIRC, the former needed a 'precharge' signal before every operation (after the address was stable), the latter didn't, but the Precharge pin on the 1103 became a no-conenct on the 1103A so you could substitute the foremr with the latter with no problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 14 15:30:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:30:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: SCSI-1 DB37 In-Reply-To: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com> from "Joe" at Jun 13, 12 09:22:27 pm Message-ID: > > Does any one have a pinout of the DB37 SCSI connector? I am not sure it was standardised, but the one time I saw a DC37 used for SCIS, it was wired in the 'obvious' (to me) way : Pins 20-37 were all grounds 1-8 were the data lines in the obvious order, 9 might well ahve been parity Then 19-... were the cotnrol lines in the same order tht they appera on a 50 pin Microribbon SCSI conenctor. That is, the signal on pin 25 of said connector became pin 19 on the DC37, the signal on pin 24 of the Microribbon ended up on pin 18 of the DC37, and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 14 15:10:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:10:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: <1339617198.84977.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Jun 13, 12 12:53:18 pm Message-ID: > But in general what does the IBM 5150/5160= > specific BASIC rom do regarding addressing specific h/w? That's the crux o= > f the matter I guess. If I could run TI Pro GW-BASIC on my XP laptop (sever= > al years ago) to whatever degree, something tells me BASIC accesses the h/w= > via BIOS or DOS calls. > Unfortunately (and perhaps obviously) the BASIC ROM source listings were never released, and the TechRefs say very little about what ROM BAIC actually dows. I guess one approach would be to saech the ROM BASIC for driect I/O instructions (there must be some, if only for the BASIC statements that allow a user program to directly access I/O ports) and also software interrupts. If there are plenty of the latter and few of the former, it's a good bet it'll run on BIOS-compatible clones (as opposed to running on only hardware-compatible clones). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 14 15:16:56 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:16:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: <201206132044.QAA02317@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Jun 13, 12 04:44:03 pm Message-ID: > > >> that I didn't know what pin was what on the system, the problem was > >> what pin was what on the connectors I wanted to buy. > > Sure. The point of my (and others) post was that if you get _any_ > > adapter you can then use the RS232 tester to figure otu which is TxD > > and which is RxD, and if necessary make up an adapter using > > easy-to-get DB25 conenctors to lin kit to your terminal. That might > > not be as neat as having the right adapter, but it will get the thing > > working. > > ...usually. > > I've seen two things which could break this. > > (1) Some devices require some of the modem control signals in order to > operate at all. Hooking up just TxD, RxD, and GND won't be enough in > such cases. Hence my comment (in anotehr messagee) to use the LED adapter to see what flow control lines the device drives. If it drives something, it's possible it requires the counterpart to be asserted before it will do anything. Another trick I've used is to use the diode test feature of a DMM (or an analogue multimeter) to check every pin o nthe DB25 to ground both ways round. You will pick up the input protection diodes of the receivr chips and the output stage of the drivers. Thus tyou can tell which pins go somewhere, and which are not connected at all > > (2) I've even seen one device which powers down its transmitter unless > it sees at least one input pin being driven. This is extremely I assuem it also powers down the drivers for any flow control outputs. That is plain evil. What device does this? > annoying, because when you go in with a meter (or lights) to figure out > which pins are being driven you find that none of them are. It also > means that you can't test it by just shorting TxD to RxD even if the > software is configured to ignore modem control signals. Mercifully, > such devices seem to be rare; I've seen only one, out of all the serial > ports I've dealt with, as far as I know. A third thing you cna't test with the light adapter on its own is an RS232 drvice that's powered from the RS232 signals, like some (most?, certainly not all) serial mice. I think it's fair to say that no solution works in _all_ cases. That doesn't mean the LED adapter is not handy to have around. It works in enough cases that it's a useful thing to have in the toolkit. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 14 16:25:33 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 17:25:33 -0400 Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FDA56CD.3010609@neurotica.com> On 06/14/2012 04:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> But in general what does the IBM 5150/5160= >> specific BASIC rom do regarding addressing specific h/w? That's the crux o= >> f the matter I guess. If I could run TI Pro GW-BASIC on my XP laptop (sever= >> al years ago) to whatever degree, something tells me BASIC accesses the h/w= >> via BIOS or DOS calls. > > Unfortunately (and perhaps obviously) the BASIC ROM source listings were > never released, and the TechRefs say very little about what ROM BAIC > actually dows. It's not THAT big. Someone should finally get around to disassembling and commenting it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 14 16:30:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 17:30:56 -0400 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FDA5810.4070101@neurotica.com> On 06/14/2012 04:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> (2) I've even seen one device which powers down its transmitter unless >> it sees at least one input pin being driven. This is extremely > > I assuem it also powers down the drivers for any flow control outputs. > > That is plain evil. What device does this? Just to jump in...I don't know about machines, but at least one of the later MAX232 family chips can be configured to do this. It's a power-saving measure; it shuts down the charge pump. Note that this is not the "MAX232", but one of that family, which comprises upwards of thirty completely different chips now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 16:56:15 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:56:15 +0100 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> <083901cd422d$5fcb4150$1f61c3f0$@ntlworld.com> <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <4FDA5DFF.8020901@gmail.com> On 14/06/2012 03:15, Glen Slick wrote: > I bought a couple of these BC19S cables to have as spares for $18 each, > including shipping. Haven't seen a cheaper price recently. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/300649403425 Very nice, but $150 to ship to the UK? I could almost fly out and pick one up for that.... > Physically it looks pretty much the same as the BC18Z, but maybe slightly > improved. The block on the monitor end of the cable with the keyboard and > mouse jacks looks the same. But the R,G,B leads coming out of the block > look almost twice as long and thicker. In my opinion that is an improvement > since on my BC18Z the shorter and thinner leads appear to have some strain > on them when attached to my monitor and one of the leads has a frayed outer > shield where it attaches to the connector block. > > I haven't actually connected the BC19S between my VCB02 and monitor yet to > verify identical electrical functionality with the BC18Z. > > -Glen > > On Jun 5, 2012 8:43 AM, "N0body H0me" wrote: >> So, what's the difference between a BC19s and a BC18z? >> My suspicion is that it's either mechanical, or cosmetic >> if they're electrically equivalent . . . >> >> Jeff >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com >>> Sent: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:38:07 +0100 >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables >>> >>> For the record, it turns out that the BC19S cable also works on a VCB02. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Rob -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 14 17:13:23 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:13:23 -0700 Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: <4FDA5810.4070101@neurotica.com> References: , <4FDA5810.4070101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FD9FF93.1461.16A371C@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jun 2012 at 17:30, Dave McGuire wrote: > Just to jump in...I don't know about machines, but at least one of > the > later MAX232 family chips can be configured to do this. It's a > power-saving measure; it shuts down the charge pump. Note that this > is not the "MAX232", but one of that family, which comprises upwards > of thirty completely different chips now. Linear Technology EIA transceivers ; e.g. LT1080--pretty much have always had that feature--with an ON/OFF pin. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 17:27:25 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:27:25 -0700 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: <4FDA5DFF.8020901@gmail.com> References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> <083901cd422d$5fcb4150$1f61c3f0$@ntlworld.com> <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4FDA5DFF.8020901@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > On 14/06/2012 03:15, Glen Slick wrote: >> >> I bought a couple of these BC19S cables to have as spares for $18 each, >> including shipping. Haven't seen a cheaper price recently. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300649403425 > > Very nice, but $150 to ship to the UK? I could almost fly out and pick one > up for that.... >From the USPS website: If it would fit into a USPS Priority Mail? International Small Flat Rate Box, 8-5/8" x 5-3/8" x 1-5/8", Maximum weight 4 pounds the shipping would be $16.95. I'm not sure if it would fit one of those boxes without trying. Maybe not. The next size up Priority Mail? International Medium Flat Rate Box, 13-5/8" x 11-7/8" x 3-3/8" or 11" x 8-1/2" x 5-1/2", Maximum weight 20 pounds is $47.95. No idea what the eBay shipping calculator is using to come up with the $150 shipping. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 17:49:18 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 23:49:18 +0100 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> <083901cd422d$5fcb4150$1f61c3f0$@ntlworld.com> <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4FDA5DFF.8020901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FDA6A6E.8000409@gmail.com> On 14/06/2012 23:27, Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> On 14/06/2012 03:15, Glen Slick wrote: >>> I bought a couple of these BC19S cables to have as spares for $18 each, >>> including shipping. Haven't seen a cheaper price recently. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300649403425 >> Very nice, but $150 to ship to the UK? I could almost fly out and pick one >> up for that.... > From the USPS website: > > If it would fit into a USPS Priority Mail? International Small Flat > Rate Box, 8-5/8" x 5-3/8" x 1-5/8", Maximum weight 4 pounds the > shipping would be $16.95. I'm not sure if it would fit one of those > boxes without trying. Maybe not. > > The next size up Priority Mail? International Medium Flat Rate Box, > 13-5/8" x 11-7/8" x 3-3/8" or 11" x 8-1/2" x 5-1/2", Maximum weight 20 > pounds is $47.95. > > No idea what the eBay shipping calculator is using to come up with the > $150 shipping. > I asked him why it was so expensive to ship to the UK, lets see if I get an answer... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From fast79ta at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 18:49:49 2012 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 17:49:49 -0600 Subject: SCSI-1 DB37 In-Reply-To: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com> References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <022101cd4a88$63c6c0f0$2b5442d0$@yahoo.com> Thanks for all the feedback.. Plus I learned something new.. I always thought DB was short for D-Sub.. Boy was I wrong! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-25 I will compare what I have on that thing, with the examples, and see if we have a winner. Might be able to hack up an external HD68 cable, and make a new one.. or let all the smoke out, and recycle the scanner like it was headed to originally anyways.. :| Cheers, Joe -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: June-13-12 9:22 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: SCSI-1 DB37 Does any one have a pinout of the DB37 SCSI connector? Might be what my old scanner has on it. Especially if all the ground pins and shields line up. Thanks! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 14 20:32:34 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 18:32:34 -0700 Subject: SCSI-1 DB37 In-Reply-To: <022101cd4a88$63c6c0f0$2b5442d0$@yahoo.com> References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>, <022101cd4a88$63c6c0f0$2b5442d0$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FDA2E42.30547.220916C@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jun 2012 at 17:49, Joe wrote: > I will compare what I have on that thing, with the examples, and see > if we have a winner. Might be able to hack up an external HD68 cable, > and make a new one.. or let all the smoke out, and recycle the scanner > like it was headed to originally anyways.. :| Please be sure to let us know how it goes, Joe! --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 14 23:08:43 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:08:43 -0700 Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: <4FDA56CD.3010609@neurotica.com> References: <4FDA56CD.3010609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FDAB54B.5000804@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Unfortunately (and perhaps obviously) the BASIC ROM source listings were > never released, and the TechRefs say very little about what ROM BAIC > actually dows. Dave McGuire wrote: > It's not THAT big. Someone should finally get around to disassembling > and commenting it. I'd wager that it's an almost literal translation of a late version of Microsoft BASIC-80, and I seem to recall that there are some commented disassemblies of that, so it shouldn't be too difficult. It's probably not even that different than Microsoft's TRS-80 BASIC. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jun 14 23:59:52 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 00:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201206150459.AAA18276@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> (2) I've even seen one device which powers down its transmitter >> unless it sees at least one input pin being driven. [...] > I assuem it also powers down the drivers for any flow control > outputs. Yes; I can't recall details (it was quite a while ago), but I think it was a low-power device (laptop? SoC?) on which powering down the DC-DC converter used to generate the voltages for RS-232 could result in a nontrivial power savings. I've assumed that's what it was doing. > That is plain evil. What device does this? As I said above, I don't recall enough details, except that I think it was a battery-powered device. > A third thing you cna't test with the light adapter on its own is an > RS232 drvice that's powered from the RS232 signals, True. > I think it's fair to say that no solution works in _all_ cases. That > doesn't mean the LED adapter is not handy to have around. It works > in enough cases that it's a useful thing to have in the toolkit. Agreed on all three points. I brought up these cases not to say "don't bother with a LED RS232 breakout box", but more "be aware of these possibilities when debugging, so that you don't, for example, jump to the conclusion that because no lines are driven the hardware must be fried". /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tpresence at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 14:28:45 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 13:28:45 -0600 Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around In-Reply-To: References: , , , , Message-ID: Richard, Actually, the EWS (ELN Workstation Software) is part of a freeware package dec produced some time ago. But this only matters if you want to use the terminal in x-windows mode, which I may eventually do. I do have a microvax III system that could supply the OS, but I haven't gotten that far yet. The nice thing about the 1300 is that they provided dumb terminal capability as well. There is a switch on the rear of the unit that allows you to select what personality it is, graphics or text. Of course, for the time being, I have it being used as a dumb terminal. My only real issue is that no terminal type seems to work 100% with the unit. I have tried every available setting, as well as changing baud rates and such, but I haven't had any luck. The terminal works, but any escape characters just get printed to the screen. If I set it to any VT type, at least backspace works. Kevin > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:16:02 -0600 > > > In article , > Kevin Reynolds writes: > > > Strangely enough, they seem to have everything EXCEPT the vt1300 :( > > The 1300 is very similar to the 1200, but uses a different OS. > > You'll need a system that can supply the VAXELN operating system to > the terminal. > > This article from Digital Technical Journal describes the X terminals > made by DEC, including the VT1300: > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 15 01:50:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 23:50:05 -0700 Subject: BASIC rom compatibility In-Reply-To: <4FDAB54B.5000804@brouhaha.com> References: , <4FDA56CD.3010609@neurotica.com>, <4FDAB54B.5000804@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FDA78AD.3689.3434529@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jun 2012 at 21:08, Eric Smith wrote: > I'd wager that it's an almost literal translation of a late version of > Microsoft BASIC-80, and I seem to recall that there are some commented > disassemblies of that, so it shouldn't be too difficult. It's > probably not even that different than Microsoft's TRS-80 BASIC. Does DOSBox allow for loading a PC ROM BASIC image? There were some early PC programs that made calls directly into the BASIC ROM. Just some idle curiosity.... --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Jun 15 02:53:14 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 08:53:14 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0BDE29CF0EC94856AF54DE125008A3AB@Edicons.local> Will all those moving from DEC equipment to Raspberry Pi please contact me to arrange collection of their unwanted DEC systems!! Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: 13 June 2012 14:34 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... On 12 June 2012 14:06, Gene Buckle wrote: > Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards. ?Pretty slick: > > http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster I thought that was pretty elite, as one might say, myself - and Tweeted it, where it's now spreading quite well. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jun 15 03:10:40 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 01:10:40 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... In-Reply-To: <0BDE29CF0EC94856AF54DE125008A3AB@Edicons.local> References: <0BDE29CF0EC94856AF54DE125008A3AB@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <4FDAEE00.2020104@jwsss.com> Is there a place with a description of all that one needs to set up to get the vax cluster going? I'm thinking that my vmware system could host 4 to 8 linux boxes w/o a problem, but given the time I have to put into projects, I'd love to get pointers on where the best starting point is rather than a lot of hunting. I've got pretty good familiarity with all the bits a pieces, but the devil is usually in the details when you start to try to find all the parts. I'd certainly document what it takes to get it onto a multi vmware / simh system. I've been doing some firewall testing with success on the setup, and if the traffic is routeable on the vmware virtual switches, I'd like to use this a another test of that. thanks Jim On 6/15/2012 12:53 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Will all those moving from DEC equipment to Raspberry Pi please contact me > to arrange collection of their unwanted DEC systems!! > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Liam Proven > Sent: 13 June 2012 14:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... > > On 12 June 2012 14:06, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards. Pretty slick: >> >> http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster > I thought that was pretty elite, as one might say, myself - and > Tweeted it, where it's now spreading quite well. :?) > From md.benson at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 03:59:39 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 09:59:39 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster... In-Reply-To: <22486291.81433.1339749167473.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcru16> References: <0BDE29CF0EC94856AF54DE125008A3AB@Edicons.local> <22486291.81433.1339749167473.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcru16> Message-ID: <-7624998006129406758@unknownmsgid> On 15 Jun 2012, at 09:14, jim s wrote: > Is there a place with a description of all that one needs to set up to > get the vax cluster going? I'm thinking that my vmware system could > host 4 to 8 linux boxes w/o a problem, but given the time I have to put > into projects, I'd love to get pointers on where the best starting point > is rather than a lot of hunting. I've got pretty good familiarity with > all the bits a pieces, but the devil is usually in the details when you > start to try to find all the parts. I'd certainly document what it > takes to get it onto a multi vmware / simh system. I'm working on it for RaspberryPi, the procedure, minus the part about preparing the OS SDHC card, is likely to be similar. > I've been doing some firewall testing with success on the setup, and if > the traffic is routeable on the vmware virtual switches, I'd like to use > this a another test of that. Sounds like an unteresting project, it could really prove viable with something like a 4-thread i3 or i5 and 4GB of RAM to share out between the VMs. I'd probably run a SSD or high speed disk for the partitions to maximise I/O speed. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 15 09:35:26 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 08:35:26 -0600 Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around In-Reply-To: References: , , , , Message-ID: In article , Kevin Reynolds writes: > The nice thing about the 1300 is that they provided dumb terminal > capability as well. There is a switch on the rear of the unit that allows > you to select what personality it is, graphics or text. Of course, for the > time being, I have it being used as a dumb terminal. My only real issue is > that no terminal type seems to work 100% with the unit. I have tried every > available setting, as well as changing baud rates and such, but I haven't > had any luck. I guess this isn't so surprising; the terminal mode is probably only considered a stopgap measure until you can configure the X Window System to work properly. > The terminal works, but any escape characters just get printed to the > screen. If I set it to any VT type, at least backspace works. You'd be surprised how much code it is to support the full VT100 escape sequence set :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jun 14 02:01:28 2012 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 00:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop Message-ID: If anyone owns an Apple-1, the peak of the bubble has arrived. Sell yours NOW and then buy it back after the bubble bursts. In the meantime, maybe buy a nice tulip to replace it. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 15 11:16:34 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 09:16:34 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> On 6/14/12 12:01 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > If anyone owns an Apple-1, the peak of the bubble has arrived. Sell yours > NOW and then buy it back after the bubble bursts. > > In the meantime, maybe buy a nice tulip to replace it. > http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2012/books-manuscripts-n08864#/r=/en/ecat.fhtml.N08864.html+r.m=/en/ecat.lot.N08864.html/57/ $374,000 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 15 12:05:09 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:05:09 +0100 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: <4FDA6A6E.8000409@gmail.com> References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com> <083901cd422d$5fcb4150$1f61c3f0$@ntlworld.com> <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4FDA5DFF.8020901@gmail.com> <4FDA6A6E.8000409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <024901cd4b19$06e3cb30$14ab6190$@ntlworld.com> I have asked a similar question in the past and the shipping has turned out to be much less, but not always. I am going to the USA in July, I wouldn't mind a spare one of these cables, so if I could get him to ship me two inside the US I could bring one back for you too. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Wade > Sent: 14 June 2012 23:49 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > > On 14/06/2012 23:27, Glen Slick wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Dave Wade > wrote: > >> On 14/06/2012 03:15, Glen Slick wrote: > >>> I bought a couple of these BC19S cables to have as spares for $18 > >>> each, including shipping. Haven't seen a cheaper price recently. > >>> > >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300649403425 > >> Very nice, but $150 to ship to the UK? I could almost fly out and > >> pick one up for that.... > > From the USPS website: > > > > If it would fit into a USPS Priority MailR International Small Flat > > Rate Box, 8-5/8" x 5-3/8" x 1-5/8", Maximum weight 4 pounds the > > shipping would be $16.95. I'm not sure if it would fit one of those > > boxes without trying. Maybe not. > > > > The next size up Priority MailR International Medium Flat Rate Box, > > 13-5/8" x 11-7/8" x 3-3/8" or 11" x 8-1/2" x 5-1/2", Maximum weight 20 > > pounds is $47.95. > > > > No idea what the eBay shipping calculator is using to come up with the > > $150 shipping. > > > I asked him why it was so expensive to ship to the UK, lets see if I get an > answer... > > -- > Dave Wade G4UGM > Illegitimi Non Carborundum From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 15 12:54:38 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 11:54:38 -0600 Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop In-Reply-To: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> References: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4FDB5FE2.4080100 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 6/14/12 12:01 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > If anyone owns an Apple-1, the peak of the bubble has arrived. Sell yours > > NOW and then buy it back after the bubble bursts. > > > > In the meantime, maybe buy a nice tulip to replace it. > > > > http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2012/books-manuscripts- n08864#/r=/en/ecat.fhtml.N08864.html+r.m=/en/ecat.lot.N08864.html/57/ > > $374,000 Ebay is going to be unusable for a while, now.... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 15 13:21:39 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 11:21:39 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop In-Reply-To: References: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FDB7D33.9020000@bitsavers.org> On 6/15/12 10:54 AM, Richard wrote: >> $374,000 > > Ebay is going to be unusable for a while, now.... I'm buying less and less there, which is probably a good thing. There's just too much noise to wade through. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jun 15 13:38:46 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 11:38:46 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop In-Reply-To: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> References: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com> lots of bucks. I'd like to see their actual provenance. The box of text that came up in the catalog for provenance sucked. I recently saw a memorabilia show which deals with Hollywood artifacts where they demanded DNA on some hair from Marilyn Monroe. I'd think provenance on this besides the forensic exam (which they had on the hair for comparison) and the affidavits ( again that was present on the other) would include exact purchase dates, and chain of ownership. Their provenance and notes just has historical notes, and that this one "works". If I ponied up the money like this and they said there were 6 working, I'd want to know which 6, and also whether this one is working w/o any mods, if so what mods, when mods, etc. And complete chain of ownership. A meeting with Wozniak wouldn't hurt either on the matter. Jim On 6/15/2012 9:16 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/14/12 12:01 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> >> If anyone owns an Apple-1, the peak of the bubble has arrived. Sell >> yours >> NOW and then buy it back after the bubble bursts. >> >> In the meantime, maybe buy a nice tulip to replace it. >> > > http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2012/books-manuscripts-n08864#/r=/en/ecat.fhtml.N08864.html+r.m=/en/ecat.lot.N08864.html/57/ > > > $374,000 > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 15 13:50:35 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 14:50:35 -0400 Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop In-Reply-To: <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com> References: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4FDB83FB.9050507@atarimuseum.com> Yes, well everyone will now come out of the woodwork and saturate the market with them and they will drop quickly, though even the high end days of $10k-$15k appear to be gone... watch out for counterfeits now more then ever... there is money and when the counterfeiters smell it, they will be hard at work now.... jim s wrote: > lots of bucks. I'd like to see their actual provenance. The box of > text that came up in the catalog for provenance sucked. > > I recently saw a memorabilia show which deals with Hollywood artifacts > where they demanded DNA on some hair from Marilyn Monroe. I'd think > provenance on this besides the forensic exam (which they had on the > hair for comparison) and the affidavits ( again that was present on > the other) would include exact purchase dates, and chain of ownership. > > Their provenance and notes just has historical notes, and that this > one "works". If I ponied up the money like this and they said there > were 6 working, I'd want to know which 6, and also whether this one is > working w/o any mods, if so what mods, when mods, etc. And complete > chain of ownership. > > A meeting with Wozniak wouldn't hurt either on the matter. > > Jim > > On 6/15/2012 9:16 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 6/14/12 12:01 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: >>> >>> If anyone owns an Apple-1, the peak of the bubble has arrived. Sell >>> yours >>> NOW and then buy it back after the bubble bursts. >>> >>> In the meantime, maybe buy a nice tulip to replace it. >>> >> >> http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2012/books-manuscripts-n08864#/r=/en/ecat.fhtml.N08864.html+r.m=/en/ecat.lot.N08864.html/57/ >> >> >> $374,000 >> >> > From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 13:54:12 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 14:54:12 -0400 Subject: Upcoming N8 home brew computer PCBs ordered In-Reply-To: <015f01cd474a$a9aea740$fd0bf5c0$@YAHOO.COM> References: <015f01cd474a$a9aea740$fd0bf5c0$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <000601cd4b28$5a71b9b0$0f552d10$@YAHOO.COM> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 4:50 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Upcoming N8 home brew computer PCBs ordered > > Hi! Good news! I ordered at batch of the N8 PCBs. The N8 is a group project > design from the N8VEM home brew computing project. There is a detailed > description at the N8VEM wiki below. > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/54039670/N8%20announcement > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=N8-final > > Please contact me if interested. I anticipate the PCBs will arrive early next > week ~19 Jul 2012 > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch The N8 PCBs have arrived! Yay! Thanks to everyone who helped with the design and prototyping! Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 14:05:29 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 12:05:29 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop In-Reply-To: <4FDB83FB.9050507@atarimuseum.com> References: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com> <4FDB83FB.9050507@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4FDB8779.1090102@gmail.com> On 6/15/2012 11:50 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yes, well everyone will now come out of the woodwork and saturate the > market with them and they will drop quickly, though even the high end > days of $10k-$15k appear to be gone... > I don't know there are enough of them out there to saturate anything. I suspect most people that have them aren't looking to sell them anyway. A glut of Apple I's on ebay is probably not something worth worrying about. From evan at snarc.net Fri Jun 15 14:19:11 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 15:19:11 -0400 Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop In-Reply-To: <4FDB83FB.9050507@atarimuseum.com> References: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com> <4FDB83FB.9050507@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4FDB8AAF.2020207@snarc.net> > watch out for counterfeits now more then ever... there is money and > when the counterfeiters smell it, they will be hard at work now.... That's why the replica (a Willegal kit) at our museum is labeled as such and is locked up. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 15 14:38:21 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 13:38:21 -0600 Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop In-Reply-To: <4FDB7D33.9020000@bitsavers.org> References: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> <4FDB7D33.9020000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4FDB7D33.9020000 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 6/15/12 10:54 AM, Richard wrote: > > >> $374,000 > > > > Ebay is going to be unusable for a while, now.... > > I'm buying less and less there, which is probably a good thing. I'm buying less as well, but it's generally because there's less showing up that's interesting at a reasonable price. It's more the supply than the price. Terminals just aren't showing up much at all anymore and given that I already have a good slice through the SGI product line, there isn't much SGI showing up either. As for lesser known players in 3D graphics, they barely were showing up on ebay when I started this little "hobby". Lately I've been doing better by personal networking, including this list. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 15 14:44:44 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 13:44:44 -0600 Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop In-Reply-To: <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com> References: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <4FDB8136.7010609 at jwsss.com>, jim s writes: > A meeting with Wozniak wouldn't hurt either on the matter. I can get that at the company picnic :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From hachti at hachti.de Fri Jun 15 15:06:05 2012 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:06:05 +0200 Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop In-Reply-To: <4FDB83FB.9050507@atarimuseum.com> References: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com> <4FDB83FB.9050507@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4FDB95AD.9010000@hachti.de> Am 15.06.2012 20:50, schrieb Curt @ Atari Museum: > watch out for counterfeits now more then ever... there is money and when > the counterfeiters smell it, they will be hard at work now.... A very good idea! Making a PCB that looks original won't be too difficult. Even the ICs with correct date codes could be found. Making the docs is more difficult. But my main problem in making new Apple 1s is the fact that I don't have an original to copy.... Hehe :-) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 15:44:14 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 21:44:14 +0100 Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables In-Reply-To: <024901cd4b19$06e3cb30$14ab6190$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Thanks Rob, The answer I got was do I have a DHL account so I could arrange my own shipping!. Any way Number 1 son has now completed his DPhil (Oxford Phd) and is hopefully off to Utah later in the year, so perhaps there will still be some for sale and I can get them shipped to him. Lets see how we go. Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 15 June 2012 18:05 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > > > I have asked a similar question in the past and the shipping > has turned out to be much less, but not always. I am going to > the USA in July, I wouldn't mind a spare one of these cables, > so if I could get him to ship me two inside the US I could > bring one back for you too. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Wade > > Sent: 14 June 2012 23:49 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables > > > > On 14/06/2012 23:27, Glen Slick wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Dave Wade > > wrote: > > >> On 14/06/2012 03:15, Glen Slick wrote: > > >>> I bought a couple of these BC19S cables to have as > spares for $18 > > >>> each, including shipping. Haven't seen a cheaper price recently. > > >>> > > >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300649403425 > > >> Very nice, but $150 to ship to the UK? I could almost > fly out and > > >> pick one up for that.... > > > From the USPS website: > > > > > > If it would fit into a USPS Priority MailR International > Small Flat > > > Rate Box, 8-5/8" x 5-3/8" x 1-5/8", Maximum weight 4 pounds the > > > shipping would be $16.95. I'm not sure if it would fit > one of those > > > boxes without trying. Maybe not. > > > > > > The next size up Priority MailR International Medium Flat > Rate Box, > > > 13-5/8" x 11-7/8" x 3-3/8" or 11" x 8-1/2" x 5-1/2", > Maximum weight > > > 20 pounds is $47.95. > > > > > > No idea what the eBay shipping calculator is using to > come up with > > > the $150 shipping. > > > > > I asked him why it was so expensive to ship to the UK, lets > see if I > > get > an > > answer... > > > > -- > > Dave Wade G4UGM > > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > From kieron.wilkinson at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 16:58:57 2012 From: kieron.wilkinson at gmail.com (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:58:57 +0100 Subject: KryoFlux Update: Commodore 64 Message-ID: Here's an update from the KryoFlux team and it's for sure the hottest thing that I have been given the pleasure to reveal over the last twelve months. The post is long, but we have been very productive. :) You might have noticed it's gotten a bit quiet after adding write support to KryoFlux last summer. The reason is that behind the scenes the next big thing has been prepared. We always felt that the C64 community was lacking a format that would give them the opportunity to feed raw data more or less reliably into emulation. It turned out that G64 was in fact capable of working for an estimated 95% of all scenarios out there, but implementation in many emulators is so bad that things the format has to offer simply don't work in emulation. It's been a while since we said we'd not touch G64 as G64 was "bad", "not working" and "giving people a false impression about preserving things". While we stand firm that G64 is not the grail of a preservation format, we must apologise for being stubborn in regard to supporting it. Gladly many of you were stubborn, too, requesting G64 being supported, which finally led to the decision to do it right and correct things as needed. We turned to?Pete Rittwage?and his?C64 Preservation Project. We in fact?had been in touch for years and we were happy Pete shared the vision we?had and decided to not let us have the fun on our own:?"I am more than?happy to?help push technology forward. ?I knew the limitations of what I was doing?with the old 1541 hardware and was excited to hear that work was being?done on the 64 with Kryoflux. ?I was glad to fill a gap until more?high-resolution disk imaging was available."? While this is flattering, it?would be an understatement to call Pete's work a gap filler - his NibTools?are very much appreciated among the C64 community. Another helping hand came from Robert McIntyre?who already had helped modifying 5.25" drives to allow for one-pass dumping of flippy disks.?The following months were spent on research and getting things done, which finally led to a few conclusions: a. C64 preservation is still possible today, but results largely depend on media quality and storage. b. About 90% of games can be imaged with a 1541, 95% can be imaged with KryoFlux and the last 5% can be imaged with KryoFlux as well, but representation will need a more sophisticated format like our own IPF. c. Nearly all emulators are "broken" in regard to G64 image support. While some will go beyond the limit of 7928 bytes per track (which seems to be the maximum track size chosen by many programmers), some even don't support half tracks. This protection technique utilises the fact that the 1541 has a head designed for a 40 track drive, but features a stepping mechanism that can address 80 tracks. VICE, the most popular, has several flaws in the floppy support code which makes it impossible to use such images unaltered. If you take the time to read Pete's pages (http://www.c64preservation.com/) you will find many details on how to modify or alter images to make them work in emulation. While some changes are needed because the 1541 alters data before handing it over to the host computer (which means this also happens with other devices that work directly with it) the other half of changes are needed to work around flaws present in certain emulators. We decided it would not make much sense to release KryoFlux with capabilities that would go beyond those of the emulators around which is why we decided to also update VICE and give it extended G64 support to load many images properly without any user interaction.?While Softpres' Istv?n F?bi?n worked on creating an intelligent conversion algorithm for DTC that would transform stream data into meaningful G64 representations, Robert focussed on exorcising VICE and fix/add the features needed to make the 1541 in VICE behave like the real device. To give the emulation the precision needed to also run the most advanced protection methods, the trio even delved into the schematics and created a logic model that was verified shortly after by Pete by writing special test files back to disk with modified versions of Nibtools and then comparing results. The data was seen as predicted. So, after many months of research and hard work, about 1,000 C64 games dumped, and many many emails later, we are proud to present: 1. DTC with enhanced G64 export.?Rated in percent, the success should be good for 85%. Please make sure to not toss your stream files (which are mandatory for generating G64 files) - you might need them to fix images that won't work when we release the next version. If you get an error telling you there was a problem converting to G64 - be sure there was and the image is bad. DTC will refuse to convert to G64 directly from a floppy disk. You must create STREAM files first, to avoid unnecessary stress applied to the ageing medium. Please read the manual (especially page 19 and 20) about how this new exciting feature works. 2. PREVIEW version of VICE with enhanced G64 support.?This is our special gift to the community, and we're sure many users will appreciate it. You won't need a KryoFlux to benefit from it, many images that are floating around and needed to be fixed will now work right away. We'll hopefully be working with the VICE team to get our updates included in the official sources, but until that happens?we'll continue to provide a second fork (W32 build as of today, source code) on our site which will have extended G64 support.?The new circuitry simulation code allows VICE to read data recorded at a?certain bitcell density to be read back at a different bitcell density.?e.g. data recorded at 3.5us to be read back at 3.5us correctly as well?as get the expected results when reading at say 3.25us timing setting. E.g. all RapidLok protected titles rely on this to be working ?Please note that this preview does not yet enable half-track support, which will come in an update within the next month. Please see the README file included with the builds for further limitations, this still is a PREVIEW version. Here is a picture of a game that for sure won't run on an unmodified version of VICE: "Defender Of The Crown" by Cinemaware. http://kryoflux.com/pics/dotc_raiding.jpg It features?V-MAX! v2 protection and performs a precise density check on the disk as?soon as the player goes raiding. This image will not run in the current?official build of VICE. To give you a chance to try this new feature,?the G64 for "Defender Of The Crown", courtesy of CW Holdings, Inc., is?included with the VICE build on our website. The new build of VICE will?also run many other G64 files now that did fail before. If you ever?tried some of?the early Rainbow Arts or Magic Bytes titles (so called?BetaSkip protection by MWS), like Giana Sisters, Turrican or Blue Angel?69... all of these should work flawlessly now. All of the above is available as of today. Just head over to http://www.kryoflux.com?and grab the download of your choice. We'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Please visit our forums ( http://forum.kryoflux.com ) and let us know! Kieron The KryoFlux Team From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 15 16:22:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:22:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: <4FDA5810.4070101@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 14, 12 05:30:56 pm Message-ID: > Just to jump in...I don't know about machines, but at least one of the > later MAX232 family chips can be configured to do this. It's a I've seen severail RS232 driver chips which have a logic-level input to turn off the SC0DC ocnverter and power them down, but Iv'e nto seen one that is controleld by a signal on one of the RS232 input lines. That seems like a misfeature to me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 15 16:25:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:25:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port In-Reply-To: <4FD9FF93.1461.16A371C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 14, 12 03:13:23 pm Message-ID: > > On 14 Jun 2012 at 17:30, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Just to jump in...I don't know about machines, but at least one of > > the > > later MAX232 family chips can be configured to do this. It's a > > power-saving measure; it shuts down the charge pump. Note that this > > is not the "MAX232", but one of that family, which comprises upwards > > of thirty completely different chips now. > > Linear Technology EIA transceivers ; e.g. LT1080--pretty much have > always had that feature--with an ON/OFF pin. Sure. But thwre's a bnig differnece iMHO between an RS232 driver that can be shut down to save power if the interface isn't being used, and one that is controleld by an RS23 input. The formr is useful. The latter is pain, if on;y because you presumably can't conenct 2 such machines together (bneither will power up irs drvier because the other machien's driver isn't pwoered up so the necessary input signal is not asserted). -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 15 17:19:57 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 16:19:57 -0600 Subject: Upcoming N8 home brew computer PCBs ordered In-Reply-To: <000601cd4b28$5a71b9b0$0f552d10$@YAHOO.COM> References: <015f01cd474a$a9aea740$fd0bf5c0$@YAHOO.COM> <000601cd4b28$5a71b9b0$0f552d10$@YAHOO.COM> Message-ID: <4FDBB50D.5050600@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/15/2012 12:54 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Thanks to everyone who helped with the design and prototyping! What software is available? > Have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > > From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 19:36:33 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:36:33 -0400 Subject: Upcoming N8 home brew computer PCBs ordered In-Reply-To: <4FDBB50D.5050600@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <015f01cd474a$a9aea740$fd0bf5c0$@YAHOO.COM> <000601cd4b28$5a71b9b0$0f552d10$@YAHOO.COM> <4FDBB50D.5050600@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001801cd4b58$2128a710$6379f530$@YAHOO.COM> > > Thanks to everyone who helped with the design and prototyping! > What software is available? CP/M 2.2, CP/M 3.0, Z-System, MSX C-BIOS plus debug monitor http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/54039670/N8%20announcement From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 20:17:18 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning Message-ID: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I still have many many many large tomes and other printed material, including vintage docs, that needs to be committed to digital format. I'm always building something, and I gathered a hodge podge of materials in an attempt to fenagle my own document feeder (first thought I'd use a scanner or pair, later said screw that I'll just use a digital camera). Non destructive scanning isn't necessarily a whole lot more difficult in my estimation (using whatever curdled gray matter I have left), but who needs any more complexity then is necessary, so I opted for destructive scanning (where you rip the spine of the book apart and jam it in the mechanism). Then strolling through Target, I noticed the Epson Workforce 645 which allegedly can take a stack of 30 sheets and scan both sides. I'd prefer 30,000 sheets, but beggars can't always be choosers. So I bought it, but have yet to open it (my ethic states I shouldn't crack an item unless I'm somewhat positive I'll keep it. I _rarely_ return something I open. It bothers me to). So I would just like to ask if any of you all have delved into this. A piddly 30 sheet document feeder still requires you to "be there", although I suppose I could catch up on twiddling my thumbs at least while I reduce oh 300 books to bits and bytes. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 15 20:41:44 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 21:41:44 -0400 Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FDBE458.208@neurotica.com> On 06/15/2012 09:17 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I still have many many many large tomes and other printed material, > including vintage docs, that needs to be committed to digital format. > I'm always building something, and I gathered a hodge podge of > materials in an attempt to fenagle my own document feeder (first > thought I'd use a scanner or pair, later said screw that I'll just > use a digital camera). Non destructive scanning isn't necessarily a > whole lot more difficult in my estimation (using whatever curdled > gray matter I have left), but who needs any more complexity then is > necessary, so I opted for destructive scanning (where you rip the > spine of the book apart and jam it in the mechanism). Then strolling > through Target, I noticed the Epson Workforce 645 which allegedly can > take a stack of 30 sheets and scan both sides. I'd prefer 30,000 > sheets, but beggars can't always be choosers. So I bought it, but > have yet to open it (my ethic states I shouldn't crack an item unless > I'm somewhat positive I'll keep it. I _rarely_ return something I > open. It bothers me to). So I would just like to ask if any of you > all have delved into this. A piddly 30 sheet document feeder still > requires you to "be there", although I suppose I could catch up on > twiddling my thumbs at least while I reduce oh 300 books to bits and > bytes. I'd think it'd almost always be preferable to get a used, older, but made of metal and built like a tank REAL production scanner on the surplus market than a plastic piece of consumer crap that's designed to break after a few uses. Not at all insulting you for your purchase, but we all know how crappy the consumer stuff is nowadays. I'd return it and put your money into something beefy that'll actually last through those books. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 20:50:25 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <4FDBE458.208@neurotica.com> References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FDBE458.208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1339811425.56394.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire ? Not at all insulting you for your purchase, but we all know how crappy the consumer stuff is nowadays.? I'd return it and put your money into something beefy that'll actually last through those books. C: I don't have time to shop around for some old monster. If I did I might. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 15 21:00:10 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:00:10 -0400 Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FDBE8AA.2070709@atarimuseum.com> Consider a Ricoh IE450DE, exceptionally fast, large ADF (holds 150pp) and wide flatbed scanning surface. It does duplex scanning as well. Its SCSI based, so you'll need a card. Been using one for over a year, it is a fantastic workhorse and makes short work over 150 page documents in short order. Is Twain and ISIS compatible. I use it through Adobe Acrobat to create PDF's of engineering documents, court depo's, chip spec sheets, scanning in manuals, books, etc.... Really good for large D and even E sized mechanical and schematic sheets, can usually do an E size in 6 passes and then stitch the images together very easily in photoshop. You can usually find a good one off of Ebay for anywhere from $500-$800. Chris Tofu wrote: > I still have many many many large tomes and other printed material, including vintage docs, that needs to be committed to digital format. I'm always building something, and I gathered a hodge podge of materials in an attempt to fenagle my own document feeder (first thought I'd use a scanner or pair, later said screw that I'll just use a digital camera). Non destructive scanning isn't necessarily a whole lot more difficult in my estimation (using whatever curdled gray matter I have left), but who needs any more complexity then is necessary, so I opted for destructive scanning (where you rip the spine of the book apart and jam it in the mechanism). Then strolling through Target, I noticed the Epson Workforce 645 which allegedly can take a stack of 30 sheets and scan both sides. I'd prefer 30,000 sheets, but beggars can't always be choosers. So I bought it, but have yet to open it (my ethic states I shouldn't crack an item unless I'm somewhat positive I'll > keep it. I _rarely_ return something I open. It bothers me to). So I would just like to ask if any of you all have delved into this. A piddly 30 sheet document feeder still requires you to "be there", although I suppose I could catch up on twiddling my thumbs at least while I reduce oh 300 books to bits and bytes. > > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 15 21:01:57 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:01:57 -0600 Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't have experience with that particular model, but I have been using a sheet feeding scanner/copier/printer at work and it's great compared to what I was doing one side at a time by hand with my home scanner. The work scanner goes straight to PDF with good results. If I had a large pile such as you describe, I would consider renting such a unit from an office equipment rental agency. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 21:26:50 2012 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 19:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1339813610.46596.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have used the Epson Workforce 645 - jammed a lot - I returned it. I now use the Fujitsu Scansnap S1500 to scan BYTE and other magazines. Works great, I love it - about $500 new. --- On Fri, 6/15/12, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: Chris Tofu > Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning > To: "General Discussion: On- Topic and Off- Topic Posts" > Date: Friday, June 15, 2012, 6:17 PM > I still have many many many large > tomes and other printed material, including vintage docs, > that needs to be committed to digital format. I'm always > building something, and I gathered a hodge podge of > materials in an attempt to fenagle my own document feeder > (first thought I'd use a scanner or pair, later said screw > that I'll just use a digital camera). Non destructive > scanning isn't necessarily a whole lot more difficult in my > estimation (using whatever curdled gray matter I have left), > but who needs any more complexity then is necessary, so I > opted for destructive scanning (where you rip the spine of > the book apart and jam it in the mechanism). Then strolling > through Target, I noticed the Epson Workforce 645 which > allegedly can take a stack of 30 sheets and scan both sides. > I'd prefer 30,000 sheets, but beggars can't always be > choosers. So I bought it, but have yet to open it (my ethic > states I shouldn't crack an item unless I'm somewhat > positive I'll > keep it. I _rarely_ return something I open. It bothers me > to). So I would just like to ask if any of you all have > delved into this. A piddly 30 sheet document feeder still > requires you to "be there", although I suppose I could catch > up on twiddling my thumbs at least while I reduce oh 300 > books to bits and bytes. > From halarewich at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 22:19:26 2012 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:19:26 -0700 Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <1339813610.46596.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1339813610.46596.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RICOH-IS450SE-IS450-Series-Flatbed-Image-Scanner-11-x-17-Max-Doc-Size-/200773716205?pt=US_Scanners&hash=item2ebf0bc8ed $500 not my auction ymmv On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 7:26 PM, steven stengel wrote: > I have used the Epson Workforce 645 - jammed a lot - I returned it. > I now use the Fujitsu Scansnap S1500 to scan BYTE and other magazines. > Works great, I love it - about $500 new. > > > > > --- On Fri, 6/15/12, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > From: Chris Tofu > > Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning > > To: "General Discussion: On- Topic and Off- Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Date: Friday, June 15, 2012, 6:17 PM > > I still have many many many large > > tomes and other printed material, including vintage docs, > > that needs to be committed to digital format. I'm always > > building something, and I gathered a hodge podge of > > materials in an attempt to fenagle my own document feeder > > (first thought I'd use a scanner or pair, later said screw > > that I'll just use a digital camera). Non destructive > > scanning isn't necessarily a whole lot more difficult in my > > estimation (using whatever curdled gray matter I have left), > > but who needs any more complexity then is necessary, so I > > opted for destructive scanning (where you rip the spine of > > the book apart and jam it in the mechanism). Then strolling > > through Target, I noticed the Epson Workforce 645 which > > allegedly can take a stack of 30 sheets and scan both sides. > > I'd prefer 30,000 sheets, but beggars can't always be > > choosers. So I bought it, but have yet to open it (my ethic > > states I shouldn't crack an item unless I'm somewhat > > positive I'll > > keep it. I _rarely_ return something I open. It bothers me > > to). So I would just like to ask if any of you all have > > delved into this. A piddly 30 sheet document feeder still > > requires you to "be there", although I suppose I could catch > > up on twiddling my thumbs at least while I reduce oh 300 > > books to bits and bytes. > > > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 15 22:22:52 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 21:22:52 -0600 Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <4FDBE8AA.2070709@atarimuseum.com> References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FDBE8AA.2070709@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <4FDBE8AA.2070709 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > Really good for large D and even E sized mechanical and schematic > sheets, can usually do an E size in 6 passes and then stitch the images > together very easily in photoshop. I found that stitching together images in Microsoft ICE is the least painful stitching I've found yet. It's literally like 3 clicks and you get a stitched image. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From g-wright at att.net Fri Jun 15 23:42:45 2012 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 21:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Disks packs 4477 in Washington State surplus Message-ID: <1339821765.99150.YahooMailRC@web83812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Washington state surplus has a Large lot of Media up for grabs. Mostly 9 track tapes but there is some 4477 disk packs in there. this is a large lot. 7000 lbs No info about being bulk erased http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=738159 -Jerry From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 15 23:52:13 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 00:52:13 -0400 Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FDBE8AA.2070709@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4FDC10FD.50008@atarimuseum.com> Thanks Rich, Just looked at the website for it, downloading and installing it now, every little bit helps :-) Richard wrote: > In article <4FDBE8AA.2070709 at atarimuseum.com>, > "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > > >> Really good for large D and even E sized mechanical and schematic >> sheets, can usually do an E size in 6 passes and then stitch the images >> together very easily in photoshop. >> > > I found that stitching together images in Microsoft ICE is the least > painful stitching I've found yet. It's literally like 3 clicks and > you get a stitched image. > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 15 23:58:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 00:58:48 -0400 Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <1339811425.56394.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FDBE458.208@neurotica.com> <1339811425.56394.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FDC1288.5090603@neurotica.com> On 06/15/2012 09:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Not at all insulting you for your purchase, but we all know how crappy > the consumer stuff is nowadays. I'd return it and put your money into > something beefy that'll actually last through those books. > > C: I don't have time to shop around for some old monster. If I did I might. The right tool for this job, however is "some monster", whether old or new. Do you really think using a consumer-level scanner will save you time on this particular project? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 03:51:39 2012 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 01:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay: 70 Commodore PETs for sale (Boise, ID) Message-ID: <1339836699.80980.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Not my auction, but awesome! 330748180850 From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 03:51:34 2012 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 01:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay: 70 Commodore PETs for sale (Boise, ID) Message-ID: <1339836694.77505.YahooMailClassic@web110611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Not my auction, but awesome! 330748180850 From jeffj at panix.com Fri Jun 15 02:33:31 2012 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 03:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port Message-ID: Re: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port >> I've even seen one device which powers down its transmitter unless >> it sees at least one input pin being driven. > Just to jump in...I don't know about machines, > but at least one of the later MAX232 family chips can be configured to do this. > It's a power-saving measure; it shuts down the charge pump. > Note that this is not the "MAX232", but one of that family, > which comprises upwards of thirty completely different chips now. And someone mentioned another driver chip that can tri-state the drivers. I once worked in an environment that kinda used that feature to allow many RS232 devices to share one line. It was a broadcast-mostly hub-network where clients could send requests, but they were normally transmit-disabled. It was collision NON-detect: lack of an ack implied a transmit collision. Mfgrs such as Black Box also made MSU: Modem Sharing Unit. The dumb ones just "or-ed" together the inputs. The "smart" ones used a protocol for multiplexing many serial ports to one. I guess EIA-422 or 485 would be better suited for that, but I suspect the network evolved from single point to point links to multidrop. -- jeffj From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sat Jun 16 00:12:42 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:12:42 -0700 Subject: Disks packs 4477 in Washington State surplus In-Reply-To: <1339821765.99150.YahooMailRC@web83812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <1339821765.99150.YahooMailRC@web83812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FDC15CA.7000701@gorge.net> I wonder if the packs were bulk erased, most likely turning them into aluminum scrap. -jim Jerry Wright wrote: > Washington state surplus has a Large lot of Media up > for grabs. Mostly 9 track tapes but there is some 4477 > disk packs in there. > > this is a large lot. 7000 lbs > > No info about being bulk erased > > http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=738159 > > > -Jerry > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 04:25:25 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 04:25:25 -0500 Subject: Disks packs 4477 in Washington State surplus In-Reply-To: <4FDC15CA.7000701@gorge.net> References: <1339821765.99150.YahooMailRC@web83812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4FDC15CA.7000701@gorge.net> Message-ID: what makes them scrap? From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 04:34:46 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 11:34:46 +0200 Subject: Disks packs 4477 in Washington State surplus In-Reply-To: References: <1339821765.99150.YahooMailRC@web83812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4FDC15CA.7000701@gorge.net> Message-ID: > what makes them scrap? Destroyed servo tracks on the servo platter. From mike at fenz.net Sat Jun 16 04:38:08 2012 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 21:38:08 +1200 Subject: ebay: 70 Commodore PETs for sale (Boise, ID) In-Reply-To: <1339836699.80980.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1339836699.80980.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FDC5400.7020305@fenz.net> Awesome indeed. The seller says 'They were acquired for recycling purposes but we have decided to sell as is to free up space in the warehouse for other inventory.' Surely they mean 'Selling these because the $4300 we think we'll get for them eclipses the recycled materials' value by at least a factor of ten.' And that's a good thing, in my opinion. On 16/06/2012 8:51 p.m., steven stengel wrote: > Not my auction, but awesome! > > 330748180850 > > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 04:48:00 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 04:48:00 -0500 Subject: Disks packs 4477 in Washington State surplus In-Reply-To: References: <1339821765.99150.YahooMailRC@web83812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4FDC15CA.7000701@gorge.net> Message-ID: o :( On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 4:34 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > > what makes them scrap? > > Destroyed servo tracks on the servo platter. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 06:34:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 07:34:29 -0400 Subject: ebay: 70 Commodore PETs for sale (Boise, ID) In-Reply-To: <4FDC5400.7020305@fenz.net> References: <1339836699.80980.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4FDC5400.7020305@fenz.net> Message-ID: <4FDC6F45.9040504@neurotica.com> I dunno Mike, I don't think I can fault this guy for this. (and I can usually fault someone for ANYTHING) I think $61.00/ea is quite good price for a Pet, in any condition. If I had the spare cash lying around, I'd buy the lot, perform any necessary repairs, and dole them out to the collector community at $100/ea, and still end up giving people good deals. -Dave On 06/16/2012 05:38 AM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > Awesome indeed. The seller says 'They were acquired for recycling > purposes but we have decided to sell as is to free up space in the > warehouse for other inventory.' Surely they mean 'Selling these because > the $4300 we think we'll get for them eclipses the recycled materials' > value by at least a factor of ten.' And that's a good thing, in my opinion. > > On 16/06/2012 8:51 p.m., steven stengel wrote: >> Not my auction, but awesome! >> >> 330748180850 >> >> >> >> > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jun 16 07:56:54 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 08:56:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-1 Music Message-ID: Ebay #170861205626 Perhaps someone at the CHM could ask Peter Samson if he knows about it? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 08:35:51 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 06:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning Message-ID: <1339853751.73190.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> There at least exists the possibility it will. I also dont have 5-800$ to spend. W/o building something or using a consumes product, I have to do it by hand. ------------------------------ On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:58 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: >On 06/15/2012 09:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Not at all insulting you for your purchase, but we all know how crappy >> the consumer stuff is nowadays. I'd return it and put your money into >> something beefy that'll actually last through those books. >> >> C: I don't have time to shop around for some old monster. If I did I might. > > The right tool for this job, however is "some monster", whether old or >new. Do you really think using a consumer-level scanner will save you >time on this particular project? ;) > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 08:41:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 09:41:36 -0400 Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <1339853751.73190.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339853751.73190.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FDC8D10.1060906@neurotica.com> Good luck.. -Dave On 06/16/2012 09:35 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > There at least exists the possibility it will. I also dont have 5-800$ to spend. W/o building something or using a consumes product, I have to do it by hand. > ------------------------------ > On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:58 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: > > >On 06/15/2012 09:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> Not at all insulting you for your purchase, but we all know how crappy > >> the consumer stuff is nowadays. I'd return it and put your money into > >> something beefy that'll actually last through those books. > >> > >> C: I don't have time to shop around for some old monster. If I did I might. > > > > The right tool for this job, however is "some monster", whether old or > >new. Do you really think using a consumer-level scanner will save you > >time on this particular project? ;) > > > > -Dave > > > >-- > >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > >New Kensington, PA -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 09:16:44 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 07:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1339856204.53474.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 6/15/12, Chris Tofu wrote: > Then strolling > through Target, I noticed the Epson Workforce 645 which > allegedly can take a stack of 30 sheets and scan both sides. > I'd prefer 30,000 sheets, but beggars can't always be > choosers. So I bought it, but have yet to open it (my ethic > states I shouldn't crack an item unless I'm somewhat > positive I'll > keep it. I _rarely_ return something I open. It bothers me > to). So I would just like to ask if any of you all have > delved into this. A piddly 30 sheet document feeder still > requires you to "be there", although I suppose I could catch > up on twiddling my thumbs at least while I reduce oh 300 > books to bits and bytes. You're going to drive yourself mad. Having done printer and scanner repair for years, I can say, that your machine will be way more trouble than it's worth. It's NOT intended for scanning huge tomes of paper. It's meant for scanning in a dozen sheets every month or so, not hundreds in one night. Cheap ADF's are of poor quality, frequently feed pages crooked, and wear out quickly. You're going to have a hell of a time stopping and resetting after every time it picks two pages, or jams. Once the rollers wear out, you won't be able to replace them either, since parts won't be available - or you'll have to replace the whole assembly, since the individual roller or sep pad you need is not available. Low quality machines like this are designed for very light duty use. Many people just don't get this. Like when the DMV bought tons of cheap Samsung desktop laser printers for printing on registration forms (smaller than normal paper, loaded in the manual tray). I was replacing manual tray pick assemblies left and right. That front tray was never intended to be used a hundred times a day, every day. And individual components for the printers weren't available either, you had to replace the whole assembly. Yet, we had exactly the same printer in our office, being used for receiving incoming faxes and nothing else. It never once broke - but we only put a thousand prints on it a year. It's a hundred dollar printer. You get what you pay for. Use it for what it was meant for, and it'll be fine. So, basically, if you want to scan more than one or two books, get a real scanner. You won't be able to get it from Wal-Mart. You'll have to spend some actual money on it if you buy new. Spend a few hours researching, you should be able to find a used machine on eBay that'll serve you well for a reasonable cost. It'll still be probably three times what you paid for the copy/scan/fax/print/answering machine/clock/radio/slices/dices/salad shooter thing you bought, but on the other hand, you won't throw it out the window in frustration after you've spent six hours trying to scan a five hundred page manual and it keeps feeding two sheets at a time, so you're sitting there putting pressure on the stack of paper just right so it picks correctly. Or, you could just use your machine until it does break, then return it as defective. And they may have improved the quality of this kind of device in the last few years. I have been out of the "printer service" trenches for four years or so (of course I can still change the swing plate in a 4250 in record time), so perhaps they've managed to figure out how to make a pick assembly in a consumer printer that'll last more than two thousand pages. I don't know. YMMV. Batteries not included. Starter ink only. -Ian From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 10:50:22 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 08:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning Message-ID: <1339861822.97680.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Luck isnt necessary. Ingenuity is. ------------------------------ On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 6:41 AM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: > > Good luck.. > > -Dave > >On 06/16/2012 09:35 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> There at least exists the possibility it will. I also dont have 5-800$ to spend. W/o building something or using a consumes product, I have to do it by hand. >> ------------------------------ >> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:58 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> >On 06/15/2012 09:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> > Not at all insulting you for your purchase, but we all know how crappy >> > the consumer stuff is nowadays. I'd return it and put your money into >> > something beefy that'll actually last through those books. >> > >> > C: I don't have time to shop around for some old monster. If I did I might. >> > >> > The right tool for this job, however is "some monster", whether old or >> >new. Do you really think using a consumer-level scanner will save you >> >time on this particular project? ;) >> > >> > -Dave >> > >> >-- >> >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> >New Kensington, PA > > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 11:04:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 12:04:54 -0400 Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <1339861822.97680.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339861822.97680.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FDCAEA6.7050807@neurotica.com> Well then: "I wish you success." -Dave On 06/16/2012 11:50 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Luck isnt necessary. Ingenuity is. > ------------------------------ > On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 6:41 AM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > > Good luck.. > > > > -Dave > > > >On 06/16/2012 09:35 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> > >> There at least exists the possibility it will. I also dont have 5-800$ to spend. W/o building something or using a consumes product, I have to do it by hand. > >> ------------------------------ > >> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:58 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: > >> > >> >On 06/15/2012 09:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> > Not at all insulting you for your purchase, but we all know how crappy > >> > the consumer stuff is nowadays. I'd return it and put your money into > >> > something beefy that'll actually last through those books. > >> > > >> > C: I don't have time to shop around for some old monster. If I did I might. > >> > > >> > The right tool for this job, however is "some monster", whether old or > >> >new. Do you really think using a consumer-level scanner will save you > >> >time on this particular project? ;) > >> > > >> > -Dave > >> > > >> >-- > >> >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > >> >New Kensington, PA > > > > > >-- > >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > >New Kensington, PA -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 12:33:05 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 10:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning Message-ID: <1339867985.70264.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> No the unit I already returned (unopened) wasnt designed for big batches or even longevity necessarily, but document feeding, the crux of the matter, is no feat. People have and I seem to recall there even being one commercial product that turned a copier into a document scanner. Accurate and reliable document feeders are often left on the side of the road. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 12:51:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 13:51:36 -0400 Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <1339867985.70264.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339867985.70264.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FDCC7A8.4060103@neurotica.com> On 06/16/2012 01:33 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > No the unit I already returned (unopened) wasnt designed for big > batches or even longevity necessarily, but document feeding, the crux > of the matter, is no feat. People have and I seem to recall there > even being one commercial product that turned a copier into a > document scanner. Accurate and reliable document feeders are often > left on the side of the road. You haven't had to work on many of them, have you. ;) I worked on paper feed systems (Ziyad feeders for Canon CX engine-based laser printers, as well as the printers themselves) for several years when those printers were en vogue. That experience left me with the sincere hope that I never have to work on another paper-handling device again, as well as the insistence that any printer I own will be built to print all day, every day and likely end up being a two-man lift. (which they both are, HP 8100DN and 8550DN) Yes, paper feeding is, in fact, a feat. Yes, it is done all over the place, and has been for many decades, but that doesn't make it any less a feat, nor does it make it any less failure-prone. Document feeding in particular is much harder, because (in comparison to printing) it suddenly matters if you pick up two sheets at once, and you can often bet that the paper is of less-than-straight-off-the-ream edge quality -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 12:54:36 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 19:54:36 +0200 Subject: Second P800 haul and Nova 4 Message-ID: I just picked up the second batch of P800 stuff. The seller found some more items that were meant to be part of the sale in the first place. I also picked up a Nova 4 I bought off him too. Any pointers to Nova 4 documentation are extremely welcome. The P800 stuff consisted of an extension cabinets with some cards, some 8" floppies, and more X1215 disk packs. Cards: - 3 x MCU2 - 4 x AMA-8A - HLVCUB The HLVCUB is a card I haven't seen before. It's got two N8X300 microcontrollers on it, two SCN2652A serial controllers, and two 26-pin connectors. Looks like a hefty two-channel synchronous communications card. Floppies are labeled: - "Tools : (LP) / IPL ADDR: 60C5 / Monitor: type (?)" - "Rotterdam test system 29-03-'84" - "T. Wilders / Test Software S.M. / BMEX0 in TSWCOM module / User: BMEX Start: $RUN" - "Very Special / Utilities R1.0 83-06-01 / P5011 / SYS / User: PRK300 / ASG 1E0,DK,PRECDC" - "Userid: TOOL Date 84.03.26 / :BASIC / Address of FL-Drives=03!!!" - "CP101 83.11.25 / Userid: SYS" - "RT Floppy" - "$TDES" - "Label: CP101 Date 84.01.10 / Userid: LUC" - "RS740 MAGAZIJN / BASIC / RUN "I"" - "RS747 CARD CATALOG / BASIC I" - "RS775 / CPU P857EB / EPS 811118" - "RS776 / CP7R" Disk packs are labeled: - "CPU ISCOS 70 / 4022 250 0004.1 / PAB nr 8122 141 0470.1 / BD83" - "Graphics 8P-A / 4022 226 3470.1 / PAB nr 8122 141 0286.1 / BD58" - "VIP V12 / 4311 027 1629.1 / PAB nr 8122 141 0277.1 / BD51" - "Ext Mem Mod 286 / 4022 226 2340.1 / PAB nr 8122 141 0456.1 / BD82" - "DOM811 adr/02 intr/11 / terminal adr/10 intr/6 / update test programs 27-09-84 / IPL/65C2" - "X1216 IPL 63C2 / Test programs updare 85-12-18 / -DOM9 A/02 IT/10 FL/03 IT/11 / Userid: SDAPRO / s$$LOAD - "LAB Backup" - "TEST TP1 / R=0002" - "FPPKENIA" - 3 x PHILIPS unlabeled - 2 x CDC unlabeled - 1 x MEMOREX unlabeled If anything sounds familiar, please let me know. Cheers, Camiel From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 16 13:20:20 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 11:20:20 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FDCCE64.6010008@bitsavers.org> On 6/16/12 5:56 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > Ebay #170861205626 > > Perhaps someone at the CHM could ask Peter Samson if he knows about it? > This was done after Peter left. No one we've talked to knows who did this recording. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 13:33:19 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 11:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning Message-ID: <1339871599.74012.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> an awful lot of it seems to get done despite youre experience in the industry (10 years ago? 20?). We had something maybe a Canon, at a job 8 years ago, often reliably taking print and even that skinny fanfold garbage simultaneously. Did it draw 2 pages in periodically, short of spending ~a grand, Im sure anything will. I would think an 80-90% percent success rate for a relatively short job (i.e not long term professional activity) would be tolerable. You can always manually redo those wayfaring missed pages. This forum has nearly nothing to do with anything professional. But anything, including hobbies warrants some patience. And dumping significant cash or having people tell you it cant be done otherwise doesnt make sense. ------------------------------ On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 10:51 AM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: >On 06/16/2012 01:33 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> No the unit I already returned (unopened) wasnt designed for big >> batches or even longevity necessarily, but document feeding, the crux >> of the matter, is no feat. People have and I seem to recall there >> even being one commercial product that turned a copier into a >> document scanner. Accurate and reliable document feeders are often >> left on the side of the road. > > You haven't had to work on many of them, have you. ;) I worked on >paper feed systems (Ziyad feeders for Canon CX engine-based laser >printers, as well as the printers themselves) for several years when >those printers were en vogue. > > That experience left me with the sincere hope that I never have to >work on another paper-handling device again, as well as the insistence >that any printer I own will be built to print all day, every day and >likely end up being a two-man lift. (which they both are, HP 8100DN and >8550DN) > > Yes, paper feeding is, in fact, a feat. Yes, it is done all over the >place, and has been for many decades, but that doesn't make it any less >a feat, nor does it make it any less failure-prone. Document feeding in >particular is much harder, because (in comparison to printing) it >suddenly matters if you pick up two sheets at once, and you can often >bet that the paper is of less-than-straight-off-the-ream edge quality > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 14:43:25 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 12:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,... Message-ID: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> just send me your address. Jim Butterfield. Sent or tossed by Monday. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 14:49:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:49:22 -0400 Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <1339871599.74012.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339871599.74012.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FDCE342.5070605@neurotica.com> On 06/16/2012 02:33 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > an awful lot of it seems to get done despite youre experience in the > industry (10 years ago? 20?). Sure, but paper handling technology isn't anywhere near as young as computer technology. That stuff was well-established easily half a century before the stuff we're talking about was even thought of. I could be wrong, but I have a very tough time believing any great breakthroughs were made in paper handling in the past decade. > We had something maybe a Canon, at a > job 8 years ago, often reliably taking print and even that skinny "often reliably" > fanfold garbage simultaneously. Did it draw 2 pages in periodically, > short of spending ~a grand, Im sure anything will. Yes, that was my point exactly. > I would think an > 80-90% percent success rate for a relatively short job (i.e not long > term professional activity) would be tolerable. You can always > manually redo those wayfaring missed pages. And if you destroy the original in the process? > This forum has nearly > nothing to do with anything professional. I'd disagree with that. > But anything, including > hobbies warrants some patience. You said yourself that you don't have time to find a deal on the right tool for this job. > And dumping significant cash or > having people tell you it cant be done otherwise doesnt make sense. I'm not telling you it can't be done. I wished you success, remember? I just said it's very likely to be a waste of time using consumer crap, and I hope it doesn't turn out to be frustrating for you, especially when proper tools are at hand, and cheap. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 16 14:37:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:37:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <1339861822.97680.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Jun 16, 12 08:50:22 am Message-ID: > > > Luck isnt necessary. Ingenuity is. "Don't believe in miracles, rely on them" :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 16 14:47:57 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:47:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <4FDCC7A8.4060103@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 16, 12 01:51:36 pm Message-ID: > > On 06/16/2012 01:33 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > No the unit I already returned (unopened) wasnt designed for big > > batches or even longevity necessarily, but document feeding, the crux > > of the matter, is no feat. People have and I seem to recall there > > even being one commercial product that turned a copier into a > > document scanner. Accurate and reliable document feeders are often > > left on the side of the road. > > You haven't had to work on many of them, have you. ;) I worked on > paper feed systems (Ziyad feeders for Canon CX engine-based laser > printers, as well as the printers themselves) for several years when > those printers were en vogue. And I can assure you, that having worked on various printers, copiers, etc over the years, that the CX engien is one of the bttter ones :-) Some time back I bought a cheap photocopier, the sort where you put the orignail one sheet at a timne on a sliding glass platen. There were 2 models in the shop. On the cheaper one, you fet the blank paper in one shet at a time, when you slid a sheet in, the machine started up. On the more expensive one, there was a paper tray for a pile of blank paper, it pickup ou one sheet at time when you press thed 'copy' button. I bougthe the cheaper one. The only advantage of the more expensive model was if you wanted to make serveral copies of one original, something I rarely need to do. THe disadvantage of it was that it had a paper pickup system, which epxperience suggests is going to jam all too often and is going to nbeed new rollers from time to time. > > That experience left me with the sincere hope that I never have to > work on another paper-handling device again, as well as the insistence I've only ever met one printer that can feed in a new roll of paper automatixally and get it right more than 10% or the time. And that's the HP9866, which works just abotu every time without problems. They got it iright in the early 1970s... Of course that thing is built like a brick prvy... > that any printer I own will be built to print all day, every day and > likely end up being a two-man lift. (which they both are, HP 8100DN and > 8550DN) > > Yes, paper feeding is, in fact, a feat. Yes, it is done all over the > place, and has been for many decades, but that doesn't make it any less > a feat, nor does it make it any less failure-prone. Document feeding in There are many provblesm. Sheets will stick together. Crumpled corners, etc, common on old documents you want to scan, will cause problems. And while it might work OK wen new, it will wear out (paper is suprisingly abrasive). If you can't get new rollers, or can't make your own replacements, you are going to have big problems. > particular is much harder, because (in comparison to printing) it > suddenly matters if you pick up two sheets at once, and you can often > bet that the paper is of less-than-straight-off-the-ream edge quality -tony From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 15:12:13 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 13:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <4FDCC7A8.4060103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1339877533.58778.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 6/16/12, Dave McGuire wrote: > Document feeding in > particular is much harder, because (in comparison to > printing) it > suddenly matters if you pick up two sheets at once, and you > can often > bet that the paper is of less-than-straight-off-the-ream > edge quality And therein lies the rub. Or rather, the jam and misfeed. The easiest kind of paper in the world to pick and feed is cheap, generic 20 pound copier paper. The kind you buy by the case with the office supply store's name brand on it. It's rough enough that it's easy to pick, slick enough that it rarely sticks together, and is overall a very, very easy thing for a printer (or document feeder) to pick and feed. High quality, expensive paper - while it looks nice - is very difficult to pick and feed. Usually it's much thicker, slicker, and heavier. One customer I had was printing lots of mailings on a 4350. The tray with the letterhead in it needed new rollers constantly, since just a little wear would cause the machine to fail to pick the slick, expensive, pre-printed forms. And even the third party replacement rollers, when new, had issues picking this paper. You had to use HP genuine rollers. But, the same tray, loaded with cheap copy paper, never had problems. You could run the rollers until they were slick and shiny and they'd still pick the "Bent Staple Brand Office Paper" with no problems. When scanning docs, you run into problems with not only the paper stock, but the age and condition of the paper. Manuals that have lived their entire life in a three ring binder will be curly at the edge, and the places where the holes are punched will usually cause the pages to hang up against each other. Magazines with the spines cut off are too slick to auto-feed in most machines. Book paper is an unusual size, and tends to get "fuzzy" at the edges. Basically, what I'm trying to say, is despite the fact that "picking and feeding paper" is a known and solved problem - "picking and feeding clean new paper to print on" and "picking and feeding old documents to scan" are really two separate problems with two different sets of variables. Yes, they're similar in implementation, but the latter requires more precision and more safeguards against misfeeding than the former, since the way clean new copy paper behaves is very predictable, and the way random 30 year old once-bound-but-now-is-not paper behaves is not. And, related (yet off the off-topic) anecdote - I once serviced an HP 4250 with a MAMMOTH paper jam in the front of the machine. It was as though somehow the printer had picked and fed 20 sheets at once! To the point where I had to dismantle a fair bit of it to get it all out. Nothing seemed damaged, the rollers were in good condition, and upon reassembly, everything appeared normal, and the printer printed without misfeeding. I ran a long paper path test to test for misfeeds and jams, and could find nothing else wrong. At this point, the printer was low on paper, so I grabbed a fresh ream out of the case next to the printer to refill it before I left. The paper was Hewlett-Packard branded. Like all reams of paper, the stack of 500 sheets comes wrapped in a paper(or heavy plastic) wrapper, which is folded around the stack and glued. Well, it would seem that when this ream, and evidently the ream just before it, was wrapped off-center. The flaps on one end were too large, and the flaps on the other end were too short - not long enough to completely cover the end of the paper. Thus, the glue that's supposed to glue the wrapper together around the paper was gluing about 20 sheets of paper together into a essentially a notepad. I have no idea if the customer contacted HP about this. I suggested that perhaps they should, since, it was HP brand paper, and an HP brand printer, which required a service call due to the glued-together paper getting stuck. But I was sure to explain how to fan BOTH ends of the new ream before putting it in the drawer! -Ian From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 15:39:34 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:39:34 +0200 Subject: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector Message-ID: Does anyone have the pinout for the 12-pin power connector on the Nova-4 or Eclipse S/120 at hand? From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 16 16:06:36 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:06:36 -0600 Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <4FDC10FD.50008@atarimuseum.com> References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FDBE8AA.2070709@atarimuseum.com> <4FDC10FD.50008@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <4FDC10FD.50008 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > Just looked at the website for it, downloading and installing it now, > every little bit helps :-) Before this I had been using hugin, which was *waaaay* too much work and took lots of effort to get a good stitch. I've been amazed at how well ICE does. It is also amazingly fast -- one or two seconds, max. With hugin, the whole process was like 20 minutes because of all the manual matchup of features. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 16 16:09:21 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:09:21 -0600 Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning In-Reply-To: <1339856204.53474.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339856204.53474.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1339856204.53474.YahooMailClassic at web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > You're going to drive yourself mad. Having done printer and scanner repair > for years, I can say, that your machine will be way more trouble than it's > worth. It's NOT intended for scanning huge tomes of paper. It's meant for > scanning in a dozen sheets every month or so, not hundreds in one night. This is why I was recommending renting from an office equipment supply house. If the stuff breaks, you call them, they come fix it or replace it with another working unit. You're not going to need to own this scanner because your work has an end to it. You don't even need to rent it continuously. Rent it for a couple months and chew on your big pile of docs, then take a few months off. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 16 16:22:54 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:22:54 -0600 Subject: ebay: 70 Commodore PETs for sale (Boise, ID) In-Reply-To: <4FDC5400.7020305@fenz.net> References: <1339836699.80980.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4FDC5400.7020305@fenz.net> Message-ID: In article <4FDC5400.7020305 at fenz.net>, Mike van Bokhoven writes: > Awesome indeed. The seller says 'They were acquired for recycling > purposes but we have decided to sell as is to free up space in the > warehouse for other inventory.' Surely they mean 'Selling these because > the $4300 we think we'll get for them eclipses the recycled materials' > value by at least a factor of ten.' And that's a good thing, in my opinion. I don't think it will sell for nearly anywhere near that price, but I've been wrong before. There isn't much recycle value in these because you have to *pay* to have the monitor recycled. Once you subtract monitor fees from the small amount of precious metals that are in the motherboard and keyboard, there really isn't much left IMO. The case is steel and you might get some money from that, but not much. If you dribbled these out on ebay one by one in order to not make the market drop, I'd guess it would take you 5 years or so to sell them all off. 70 PETs is a *lot* of PETs. They're big, they're heavy and expensive to ship. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 16 17:50:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (mcguire at neurotica.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 18:50:31 -0400 Subject: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F59053B-2B52-4E85-A603-4904048EC416@neurotica.com> On Jun 16, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Does anyone have the pinout for the 12-pin power connector on the > Nova-4 or Eclipse S/120 at hand? I don't, but do I have a complete S/280 system at my building. I know it's physically similar to the S/120, and it's from the same era...I'd be happy to dig into it when I get back there tomorrow and see what I can figure out. I also have some docs and possibly some schematics but I've not yet been able to catalog it all. As you're discovering, there's very little information floating around out there about these machines. :-( Once I figure out what I have, I will find a way to make it available. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Jun 16 18:06:27 2012 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 18:06:27 -0500 Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair? Message-ID: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com> I have an old project laying around that I just spent another two hours on .. It is an 1993 external parallel port attached CD-ROM. A company called "Storage Devices Inc" made it, and IBM resold it. The model number is SCD-683. There are some traces of it if you search the web, but not much interesting. I have the drivers so that is not a problem. The CD-ROM is a 1x SCSI unit that uses a caddy. There is a parallel to SCSI bridge board in the enclosure based on the NCR 53C80 chipset, which was well known back then. The CD-ROM does show up and talk when used on an XT running PC DOS 3.3; it responds to commands like eject and it lets me see its error counts using a utility program. The problem is that it refuses to read any media that I give it. The drive is very clean - I removed the top and had a look inside the mechanism to be certain. It is a caddy loading model so I can't tell for sure that the head has clear access but everything seems to be operating freely. I'm using old pressed aluminum discs (OS/2 Warp) which should be fine in any CD-ROM device. I have tried cleaning the heads with a special CD that has the magic fibers on it, but nothing is helping. (I even reached in gently with a Q-tip and isopropyl alcohol, but that did not change anything.) I'd like to see this thing run - it has a carry handle on the side! Unless I come up with another idea to try the only way that is going to happen is if I swap the drive out. The original drive is an IBM CDRM00101 and the driver is looking for the ID string. So a drive swap with a different SCSI drive will probably require patching the device driver. So, any ideas on what I can do to clean the head further? (It might just be hopelessly out of alignment - I don't know the history of the drive.) Mike From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 18:31:55 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:31:55 -0300 Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair? References: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com> Message-ID: <060b01cd4c18$6bd91f90$6400a8c0@tababook> Michael, CD-ROM reading heads isn't so hard to find. Why you don't take a good photo of the CD optics so we can find something compatible? --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael B. Brutman" To: "CCTalk_list" Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 8:06 PM Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair? >I have an old project laying around that I just spent another two hours on >.. > > It is an 1993 external parallel port attached CD-ROM. A company called > "Storage Devices Inc" made it, and IBM resold it. The model number is > SCD-683. There are some traces of it if you search the web, but not much > interesting. I have the drivers so that is not a problem. > > The CD-ROM is a 1x SCSI unit that uses a caddy. There is a parallel to > SCSI bridge board in the enclosure based on the NCR 53C80 chipset, which > was well known back then. The CD-ROM does show up and talk when used on an > XT running PC DOS 3.3; it responds to commands like eject and it lets me > see its error counts using a utility program. > > The problem is that it refuses to read any media that I give it. The drive > is very clean - I removed the top and had a look inside the mechanism to > be certain. It is a caddy loading model so I can't tell for sure that the > head has clear access but everything seems to be operating freely. I'm > using old pressed aluminum discs (OS/2 Warp) which should be fine in any > CD-ROM device. I have tried cleaning the heads with a special CD that has > the magic fibers on it, but nothing is helping. (I even reached in gently > with a Q-tip and isopropyl alcohol, but that did not change anything.) > > I'd like to see this thing run - it has a carry handle on the side! Unless > I come up with another idea to try the only way that is going to happen is > if I swap the drive out. The original drive is an IBM CDRM00101 and the > driver is looking for the ID string. So a drive swap with a different SCSI > drive will probably require patching the device driver. > > So, any ideas on what I can do to clean the head further? (It might just > be hopelessly out of alignment - I don't know the history of the drive.) > > > Mike > From mike at fenz.net Sat Jun 16 18:46:58 2012 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 11:46:58 +1200 Subject: ebay: 70 Commodore PETs for sale (Boise, ID) In-Reply-To: <4FDC6F45.9040504@neurotica.com> References: <1339836699.80980.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4FDC5400.7020305@fenz.net> <4FDC6F45.9040504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FDD1AF2.7080803@fenz.net> True, that was pretty much my point - these things would be worth much more as they are than as scrap, and it's a good thing for computing history. I was just surprised that the seller would even try to suggest that it's only for space reasons that the machines are being sold complete, I wasn't being critical of anything he was doing. Definitely though, there'd be a lot of work involved in selling each machine individually. If I wanted to sell these without too much effort, I'd probably go through them all and identify any runners, give them a clean and list them individually. Non-runners could be grouped by type and sold as lots. Both his way and mine are better than them being shredded and sold for next to nothing. No-one wins that way. Mike On 16/06/2012 11:34 p.m., Dave McGuire wrote: > I dunno Mike, I don't think I can fault this guy for this. (and I can > usually fault someone for ANYTHING) I think $61.00/ea is quite good > price for a Pet, in any condition. > > If I had the spare cash lying around, I'd buy the lot, perform any > necessary repairs, and dole them out to the collector community at > $100/ea, and still end up giving people good deals. > > -Dave > > On 06/16/2012 05:38 AM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: >> Awesome indeed. The seller says 'They were acquired for recycling >> purposes but we have decided to sell as is to free up space in the >> warehouse for other inventory.' Surely they mean 'Selling these because >> the $4300 we think we'll get for them eclipses the recycled materials' >> value by at least a factor of ten.' And that's a good thing, in my opinion. >> >> On 16/06/2012 8:51 p.m., steven stengel wrote: >>> Not my auction, but awesome! >>> >>> 330748180850 >>> >>> >>> >>> > From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Jun 16 18:49:23 2012 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 18:49:23 -0500 Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair? In-Reply-To: <060b01cd4c18$6bd91f90$6400a8c0@tababook> References: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com> <060b01cd4c18$6bd91f90$6400a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FDD1B83.40500@brutman.com> On 6/16/2012 6:31 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Michael, CD-ROM reading heads isn't so hard to find. Why you don't take > a good photo of the CD optics so we can find something compatible? > I've never heard of that being done - is it really feasible to find a replacement for a 15+ year old CD-ROM head assembly? (I'm scared to touch it for fear of knocking it out of alignment, never mind trying to find a drop in replacement and doing surgery.) Mike From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jun 16 22:13:28 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: free + shippage - Sanyo MBC-1000, Tek 5440 Message-ID: <1339902808.10701.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Neither work LOL. But I have the utmost faith in your technological skill. MUST respond by Sunday evening. From cube1 at charter.net Sat Jun 16 23:07:28 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 23:07:28 -0500 Subject: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector In-Reply-To: <9F59053B-2B52-4E85-A603-4904048EC416@neurotica.com> References: <9F59053B-2B52-4E85-A603-4904048EC416@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FDD5800.905@charter.net> I happen have one. (An S/140 would have the same cable - it uses the exact same power supply). (I also looked thru my drawings, and none seem to give the pinout for this cable). Orientation: F = pin with a flat, R = Round pin. Looking at the connector on the cable (i.e., looking into the pin end of the AC cable), we have 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 F R F R R R R R R R F R The numbering shows on the connector on the Nova 4, so you can use the number on the Nova 4's connector to orient yourself and confirm. For 110V AC (which is what I have) Pin 1 connects to Pin 11 in the power cable. Pin 2 connects to Pin 12 in the power cable. Pin 4 connects to Pin 8 in the power cable. Pin 5 connects to Pin 6 in the power cable. Pin 7 connects to Pin 10 in the power cable. Ground is pin 5 (and therefore pin 6 as well) Hot is pin 3. Neutral is pin 9. On a standard 3 prong power cord, hot goes into the SMALLER (right side) of the two blade slots (in the US), and as you look at the plug from the pin end, is on the LEFT. VERIFY your Nova 4 and your pinouts by checking that pins 5 and 6 on your chassis connector connect to the chassis itself, with an ohmeter, and check for resistance between pings 3 and 9. Jay On 6/16/2012 5:50 PM, mcguire at neurotica.com wrote: > On Jun 16, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> Does anyone have the pinout for the 12-pin power connector on the >> Nova-4 or Eclipse S/120 at hand? > I don't, but do I have a complete S/280 system at my building. I know it's physically similar to the S/120, and it's from the same era...I'd be happy to dig into it when I get back there tomorrow and see what I can figure out. > > I also have some docs and possibly some schematics but I've not yet been able to catalog it all. > > As you're discovering, there's very little information floating around out there about these machines. :-( Once I figure out what I have, I will find a way to make it available. > > -Dave > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Jun 16 23:30:43 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 23:30:43 -0500 Subject: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector In-Reply-To: <4FDD5800.905@charter.net> References: <9F59053B-2B52-4E85-A603-4904048EC416@neurotica.com> <4FDD5800.905@charter.net> Message-ID: <4FDD5D73.8030301@charter.net> Update. I did just find some DG Doc, in the Nova 4 16 Slot Illustrated Parts Breakdown (016-000940-00) that I have. Curiously, for 120v, they show Hot going to Pin *** 4 ***, but the plug otherwise wired exactly as I described in my previous message. But, I think that is in error, and one should wire hot to pin ***3 *** for 120V. For 240V they show Hot going to pin 3, neutral to 9, and ground to 5 (and 6). For 240V the only interconnects they show are from 1 to 11 and from 4 to 7 (as opposed to 4 to 8 for 120V). Again, I think that hot pin 3 is in error, and (probably) for 240V, one should wire hot to pin 4 BUT I HAVE NO WAY TO VERIFY THIS. HOWEVER, I did go back and re-verify what I wrote earlier on both my Nova/4 and (now) my S/140 as well and both have pin 3 as HOT. All 120V of it. Other than that, the interconnections I described below match the doc. The only variance is between hot for 120v (I say pin 3, they say 4) and hot for 240v (they say pin 3). Go figure. (Unfortunately, I don't have power supply drawings that I can use to arbitrate). Jay On 6/16/2012 11:07 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I happen have one. (An S/140 would have the same cable - it uses the > exact same power supply). (I also looked thru my drawings, and none > seem to give the pinout for this cable). > > Orientation: F = pin with a flat, R = Round pin. > Looking at the connector on the cable (i.e., looking into the pin end > of the AC cable), we have > > 1 2 3 > 4 5 6 > 7 8 9 > 10 11 12 > > F R F > R R R > R R R > R F R > > The numbering shows on the connector on the Nova 4, so you can use the > number on the Nova 4's connector to orient yourself and confirm. > > For 110V AC (which is what I have) > > Pin 1 connects to Pin 11 in the power cable. > Pin 2 connects to Pin 12 in the power cable. > Pin 4 connects to Pin 8 in the power cable. > Pin 5 connects to Pin 6 in the power cable. > Pin 7 connects to Pin 10 in the power cable. > > Ground is pin 5 (and therefore pin 6 as well) > Hot is pin 3. > Neutral is pin 9. > > On a standard 3 prong power cord, hot goes into the SMALLER (right > side) of the two blade slots (in the US), and as you > look at the plug from the pin end, is on the LEFT. > > VERIFY your Nova 4 and your pinouts by checking that pins 5 and 6 on > your chassis connector connect to the chassis itself, with an ohmeter, > and check for resistance between pings 3 and 9. > > Jay > > On 6/16/2012 5:50 PM, mcguire at neurotica.com wrote: >> On Jun 16, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Camiel >> Vanderhoeven wrote: >>> Does anyone have the pinout for the 12-pin power connector on the >>> Nova-4 or Eclipse S/120 at hand? >> I don't, but do I have a complete S/280 system at my building. I >> know it's physically similar to the S/120, and it's from the same >> era...I'd be happy to dig into it when I get back there tomorrow and >> see what I can figure out. >> >> I also have some docs and possibly some schematics but I've not >> yet been able to catalog it all. >> >> As you're discovering, there's very little information floating >> around out there about these machines. :-( Once I figure out what I >> have, I will find a way to make it available. >> >> -Dave >> > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 17 00:13:05 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:13:05 -0700 Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair? In-Reply-To: <4FDD1B83.40500@brutman.com> References: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com> <060b01cd4c18$6bd91f90$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FDD1B83.40500@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4FDD6761.3090707@brouhaha.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > (I'm scared to touch it for fear of knocking it out of alignment, > never mind trying to find a drop in replacement and doing surgery.) There isn't much in the way of critical alignment. Track following and focus both use closed-loop servo to the disc. Anyhow, it's already broken. You're not going to make it worse. From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Jun 17 05:14:18 2012 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:14:18 +0200 Subject: Second P800 haul and Nova 4 References: Message-ID: > - "Very Special / Utilities R1.0 83-06-01 / P5011 / SYS / User: PRK300 > / ASG 1E0,DK,PRECDC" This sounds like something for the P5000 series, which was a text processor. The ones I've seen, P5000 and P5002, were relabelled systems from Micon(?) in Canada, but I seem to remember that later versions used CP/M /Nico -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 388 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sun Jun 17 06:11:00 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:11:00 +0100 Subject: Enter now for the Summer 2012 Retrochallenge Message-ID: <9A03D756-9B5A-4910-BB6A-23BA7442639A@wickensonline.co.uk> Announcing the Retrochallenge 2012 Summer Challenge As usual the competition is open to all, so come and join us for a legitimized month of playing, hacking and blogging with/about your retrogear. For those of you new to retrochallenge the philosophy is: About RetroChallenge In a nutshell, the RetroChallenge is a loosely disorganised gathering of RetroComputing enthusiasts who collectively do stuff with old computers for a month. The event is very much open to interpretation... individuals set there own challenges, which can range from programming to multimedia work; hardware restoration to exploring legacy networking... or just plain dicking around. It really doesn't matter what you do, just so long as you do it. While the RetroChallenge has its competitive side, it's not really a contest... it's more like global thermonuclear war ? everyone can play, but nobody really wins. Come on... give it a go! The summer retrochallenge runs for the month of July. Register using the ENTER link at http://retrochallenge.org the Official Competition page From randall.kindig at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 17:41:49 2012 From: randall.kindig at gmail.com (Randy Kindig) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 18:41:49 -0400 Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,... In-Reply-To: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Randall Kindig 2505 S 500 W Lebanon, IN 46052 Thanks! Sent from my iPhone On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:43 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > just send me your address. Jim Butterfield. Sent or tossed by Monday. > From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Jun 16 20:50:25 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 21:50:25 -0400 Subject: DEC stuff for sale Message-ID: <201206170150.q5H1oP4U021789@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Email decstuff at pdp8online.com to contact the seller. I was contacted by someone looking to sell some DEC stuff. Looks like he's not trying to get big $ for it so I'm passing it on. Wisconsin is too far for me. > I also have some DEC equipment from the 11-03, 11-23 and one small VAX > system. I have 2 LA120 printers, 2 LN03's laser printers, several H960 > cabinets, a couple of CDC 9762 67 Meg hard drives, and various > Monitors and Interface boards. Are you or do you know of anyone interested > in this equipment? > I would like to move the equipment. One thought has been to scrap it; > another to sell it. If someone has an interest, I would like them to get the > equipment. Some of this equipment doesn't exist anymore. I would prefer to > sell it but am very reasonable. > The equipment is in Wisconsin and I would prefer that it would be picked up. > I am not in a position to do any packing or shipping. > The 11/73 system runs rt-11 with TSX. The Vax runs VMS. From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 04:00:11 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:00:11 +1200 Subject: Load Testing PDP11 Power Supplies Message-ID: I am making progress testing the power supply for my 11/04 (BA11-K chassis) and so far have worked through the power control box, transformer, fans and the 15VDC regulator/Power Line monitor but have one question for the group.... I am seeing in tolerance output voltages from the 15VDC regulator but I haven't loaded tested it. Is this something I should do or if the unloaded outputs are within tolerance then it is safe to use (once the other regulators are done)? No real technical info but a description of progress so far on http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog for those interested in a few pictures. I am about the start on the H744 5VDC regulators. Regards Andrew From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 17 08:39:13 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 14:39:13 +0100 Subject: Load Testing PDP11 Power Supplies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <011001cd4c8e$97231c20$c5695460$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Quinn > Sent: 17 June 2012 10:00 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Load Testing PDP11 Power Supplies > > I am making progress testing the power supply for my 11/04 (BA11-K > chassis) and so far have worked through the power control box, transformer, > fans and the 15VDC regulator/Power Line monitor but have one question for > the group.... > > I am seeing in tolerance output voltages from the 15VDC regulator but I > haven't loaded tested it. Is this something I should do or if the unloaded > outputs are within tolerance then it is safe to use (once the other regulators > are done)? > > No real technical info but a description of progress so far on > http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog for those interested in a few pictures. > > I am about the start on the H744 5VDC regulators. > > Regards > > Andrew The suggestion I have had is to use 12V car/motorcycle bulbs to provide some load. Regards Rob From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 08:47:58 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:47:58 -0300 Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair? References: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com> <060b01cd4c18$6bd91f90$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FDD1B83.40500@brutman.com> Message-ID: <08ca01cd4c8f$f604b3b0$6400a8c0@tababook> > I've never heard of that being done - is it really feasible to find a > replacement for a 15+ year old CD-ROM head assembly? 15 years is "new" talking about CD-ROMs. I replace heads sometimes older... > (I'm scared to touch it for fear of knocking it out of alignment, never > mind trying to find a drop in replacement and doing surgery.) It is already broken, isn't it? :o) From cctech at vax-11.org Sun Jun 17 08:54:18 2012 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 07:54:18 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair? In-Reply-To: <4FDD1B83.40500@brutman.com> References: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com> <060b01cd4c18$6bd91f90$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FDD1B83.40500@brutman.com> Message-ID: Typical failure mechanism for CDROM (and all optical drives) is the gradual degradation of the LED. If you look closely at the optical head, you might find a potentiometer that you can tweak to increase the LED output. Be aware that this will hasten the failure of the LED. Clint On Sat, 16 Jun 2012, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > On 6/16/2012 6:31 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >> Michael, CD-ROM reading heads isn't so hard to find. Why you don't take >> a good photo of the CD optics so we can find something compatible? >> > > I've never heard of that being done - is it really feasible to find a > replacement for a 15+ year old CD-ROM head assembly? > > (I'm scared to touch it for fear of knocking it out of alignment, never mind > trying to find a drop in replacement and doing surgery.) > > > Mike > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jun 17 09:47:56 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:47:56 -0400 Subject: VAX11/750 Diagnostic Tape Set - on ebay Message-ID: <4FDDEE1C.9060103@telegraphics.com.au> DEC VAX11/750 Diagnostic Tape Set http://r.ebay.com/zDS4ws I own an (hitherto unrestored) VAX-11/750 and if someone with a working TU58 can image these tapes, I might be persuaded to bid on these. --Toby From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 09:58:19 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 16:58:19 +0200 Subject: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector) Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 6:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Update. I did just find some DG Doc, in the Nova 4 16 Slot Illustrated Parts > Breakdown (016-000940-00) that I have. > > Curiously, for 120v, they show Hot going to Pin *** 4 ***, but the plug > otherwise wired exactly as I described in my previous message. ?But, I think > that is in error, and one should wire hot to pin ***3 *** for 120V. > > For 240V they show Hot going to pin 3, neutral to 9, and ground to 5 (and > 6). ?For 240V the only interconnects they show are from 1 to 11 and from 4 > to 7 (as opposed to 4 to 8 for 120V). ?Again, I think that hot pin 3 is in > error, and (probably) for 240V, one should wire hot to pin 4 BUT I HAVE NO > WAY TO VERIFY THIS. > > HOWEVER, I did go back and re-verify what I wrote earlier on both my Nova/4 > and (now) my S/140 as well and both have pin 3 as HOT. ?All 120V of it. > > Other than that, the interconnections I described below match the doc. ?The > only variance is between hot for 120v (I say pin 3, they say 4) and hot for > 240v (they say pin 3). > > Go figure. ?(Unfortunately, I don't have power supply drawings that I can > use to arbitrate). Thanks Jay, Using this, I was able to get the power supply going. All voltages check out OK, so after some careful examination I've plugged in the CPU board. The expected output on the console port is the "O" from "OK"; the K isn't printed because there's no memory. Powered it on, and after some twiddling with the console cable pinout (weird one) yes, there's the "O". Installed the memory board, powered it on again, and alas, still "O" rather than "OK". The Field Engineer's Reference says that that means a memory failure. Of course, the memory board could be faulty, but it could also be a matter of incorrect jumper settings on the memory board. I haven't been able to find a description of these yet. The board says "DGC BBU MEMORY", and contains 8 x 16 AM9016DPC ic's (4116 equivalent). That makes it 128 16-bit kilowords of memory (no parity or ECC, although there are 5 empty spots per row). There are 6 jumper positions labeled 16,17,18,19,0 and 1; each can have a jumper in the 0 or in the 1 position. My board has a jumper in the "0" position for jumpers 16, 17 and 18. No jumpers in the other three positions: o o o o o o 1 o o o o o o 0 | | | o o o o o o 16 17 18 19 0 1 Is anyone familiar with these? Camiel From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 10:02:00 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:02:00 +0200 Subject: Fwd: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 6:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Update. I did just find some DG Doc, in the Nova 4 16 Slot Illustrated Parts > Breakdown (016-000940-00) that I have. > > Curiously, for 120v, they show Hot going to Pin *** 4 ***, but the plug > otherwise wired exactly as I described in my previous message. ?But, I think > that is in error, and one should wire hot to pin ***3 *** for 120V. > > For 240V they show Hot going to pin 3, neutral to 9, and ground to 5 (and > 6). ?For 240V the only interconnects they show are from 1 to 11 and from 4 > to 7 (as opposed to 4 to 8 for 120V). ?Again, I think that hot pin 3 is in > error, and (probably) for 240V, one should wire hot to pin 4 BUT I HAVE NO > WAY TO VERIFY THIS. > > HOWEVER, I did go back and re-verify what I wrote earlier on both my Nova/4 > and (now) my S/140 as well and both have pin 3 as HOT. ?All 120V of it. > > Other than that, the interconnections I described below match the doc. ?The > only variance is between hot for 120v (I say pin 3, they say 4) and hot for > 240v (they say pin 3). > > Go figure. ?(Unfortunately, I don't have power supply drawings that I can > use to arbitrate). Thanks Jay, Using this, I was able to get the power supply going. All voltages check out OK, so after some careful examination I've plugged in the CPU board. The expected output on the console port is the "O" from "OK"; the K isn't printed because there's no memory. Powered it on, and after some twiddling with the console cable pinout (weird one) yes, there's the "O". Installed the memory board, powered it on again, and alas, still "O" rather than "OK". The Field Engineer's Reference says that that means a memory failure. Of course, the memory board could be faulty, but it could also be a matter of incorrect jumper settings on the memory board. I haven't been able to find a description of these yet. The board says "DGC BBU MEMORY", and contains 8 x 16 AM9016DPC ic's (4116 equivalent). That makes it 128 16-bit kilowords of memory (no parity or ECC, although there are 5 empty spots per row). There are 6 jumper positions labeled 16,17,18,19,0 and 1; each can have a jumper in the 0 or in the 1 position. My board has a jumper in the "0" position for jumpers 16, 17 and 18. No jumpers in the other three positions: ?o ?o ?o ?o ?o ?o 1 ?o ?o ?o ?o ?o ?o 0 | ?| ?| ?o ?o ?o ?o ?o ?o ?16 17 18 19 0 ?1 Is anyone familiar with these? Camiel From oe5ewl at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 13:16:05 2012 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 20:16:05 +0200 Subject: Free DEC Manuals Message-ID: Got some Original DEC Manuals in reasonable condition. As I do not need them at the moment any interested can have them. These Manuals have seen little use and slight yellowing on the covers. Inside they're pretty unused and clean. EK-PC380-OM-001 Professional 380 Owner's Manual EK-T25QA-IN-001 M7605 Q-BUS KIT Installation Guide EK-DZQ11-UG-001 DZQ11 Asynchronous Multiplexer User's Guide EK-T25TD-IN-001 TK25 Tape Drive Installation Guide EK-0TK25-UG-001 TK 25 Tape Drive Subsystem User Guide If you want them all (or a single one), let me know your postal adress and I'll let them fly out. I you want to give me something for them, it'd be appreciated. But not needed. Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org Ahnenforschung / Genealogy: A(E)ichberger, B(P)ruckmayr Raum Leonding/Alkoven/Eferding; Schmeisser Raum Attergau From cube1 at charter.net Sun Jun 17 13:55:30 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 13:55:30 -0500 Subject: VAX11/750 Diagnostic Tape Set - on ebay In-Reply-To: <4FDDEE1C.9060103@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4FDDEE1C.9060103@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4FDE2822.3070800@charter.net> I have done some TU58 images in the past, so if my drives still work, I could record images. I also have versions (and sometimes the exact same version) of almost all of these already images, but not the same version. See below. I also seem to recall someone having a lot of this online, but don't remember where (I thought it might be bitsavers, but I see that they are not there). BE-S201O-DE TU58#8 VAX 11 INSTR (I have S201Q Rev 22) BE-S199U-DE TU58#6 VAX 11750 DIAG SUPER (I have BE-FI21B-ME Rev 25) BE-S402S-AE TU58#17 VAX 11750 RD DIAG (I have exactly this one) BE-T285D-DE TU58#43 VAX BUS TEST DIAG BE-S030M-DE TH58#2 VAX 11750 MICRO MIC (I have exactly this one, rev 22) BE-T538E-ME TU58#3 VAX 11750 MICRO PATCH (I have exactly this one) BE-S198N-DE TU58#5 VAX750 CACHETB/MEM/EXR (I have S198O Rev 25) BE-S200I-DE TU58#7 VAX 11 HARDCORE INSTR (I have exactly this rev.) BE-S202R-DE TU58#9 CR/DISK USER MODE *[I do NOT have this one]* BE-S405G-DE TU58#20 VAX SYS EXR/BUS INIT (I have exactly this one) BE-S029O-DE TU58#1 11750 MICRO DPM (I have S029D Rev 22 - so mine is apparently older than this one) BE-T142E-DE TU58#33 VAX BUS DIAGNOSTICS (I have T142F Rev 22) BE-T142E-DE TU58#33 VAX BUS DIAGNOSTICS (2nd copy) BE-T204F-ME TU58#41 VAX 11/750 CONSOLE (I have T204J Rev 22, T204F Rev ??, T204M Rev 25) BE-S200I-DE TU58#7 VAX 11 HARDCORE INSTR (2nd copy) BE-S199U-DE TU58#6 VAX 11750 DIAG SUPER (2nd copy) BE-T300F-DE TU58#44 VAX UDA50 SUBSYSTEMS (I have exactly this one) BE-T536C-DE TU58#51 VAX AUTOSIZER DIAG (I have T536J Rev 25) BE-T538D-ME TU58#3 VAX 11750 MICRO PATCH BE-S198N-DE TU58#5 VAX750 CACHETB/MEM/EXR (2nd copy) BE-T285D-DE TU58#43 VAX BUS TEST DIAG (I have T285F Rev 22) BE-S405G-DE TU58#20 VAX SYS EXR/BUS INIT (2nd copy) BE-S201N-DE TU58#8 VAX 11 INSTR BE-S202Q-DE TU58#9 CR/DISK USER MODE BE-T537B-DE TU58#52 VAX TU80 DIAGNOSTIC (I have exactly this one) BE-Z389A-BE DECDX/VMS 11/750 TU58 DDX2 [I do nopt have these last four] BE-AC48A-BE DECSPELL V1.0 LNGVCB 4/4 TU58 BE-X734A-BE DECDX/VMS 11/750 TU58 DDX1 BE-BB70A-BE DECDX/VMS 11/750 TU58 DDX3 I also have BE-T909A-ME KU750-YG G&H UCODE & LOADER BE-T172H-DE Rev 22 #38 VAX DMF32 DIAG On 6/17/2012 9:47 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > DEC VAX11/750 Diagnostic Tape Set http://r.ebay.com/zDS4ws > > I own an (hitherto unrestored) VAX-11/750 and if someone with a > working TU58 can image these tapes, I might be persuaded to bid on these. > > --Toby > From cube1 at charter.net Sun Jun 17 14:23:23 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 14:23:23 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FDE2EAB.5070909@charter.net> I have an illustration in my DG "Installation and Packaging for Data General Products" 014-000605-02 - it is 1.5 inches thick 14 7/8 x 11, covering Nova 2 thru 4, Eclipse S/100 thru MV/1800, MP/100, MP/200 and various peripherals - really handy for jumper settings and the like.) that appears to match up (3 rows of 6 jumper positions each), but with different labelling. I also have this very board in my Nova 4 -- but apparently with less memory than you have. The illustration is thus in my book: o o o o o o w w w w w w 2 4 6 8 10 12 o o o o o o w w w w w w 1 3 5 7 9 13 o o o o o o According to this chart, then, you have w1, w3 and w5 inserted. The book says that w1, w3 and w5 are ALWAYS inserted and that w2, w4 and w6 are NEVER inserted. This is consistent with what you have and with what I have in my machine. The board can be populated as 32KB, 64KB, 128KB and 256KB. For a 256KB board, no other jumpers are inserted. For a 128KB board, W7 is inserted. For a 64KB board, W7 and W9 are inserted. For a 32KB board, W7, W9 and W11 are inserted. If yours is indeed 256KB (128K words) then no other jumpers should be present, and your board is jumpered as one would expect according to the doc. *My* board has every other row present, and so is a 128KB board. I thus have 4 rows out of the total of 8 populated, with 15 chips per populated row (and 5 empty spots in each of the populated rows). w7 is inserted, as one would expect from the doc. And, on my board the labels are the same ones you are seeing: 16, 17, 18, 19, 0, 1 (So I have 16, 17, 18 and 19 inserted in the "0" row -- the same as w1, w3, w5 and w7, above). Jay On 6/17/2012 10:02 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 6:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> Update. I did just find some DG Doc, in the Nova 4 16 Slot Illustrated Parts >> Breakdown (016-000940-00) that I have. >> >> Curiously, for 120v, they show Hot going to Pin *** 4 ***, but the plug >> otherwise wired exactly as I described in my previous message. But, I think >> that is in error, and one should wire hot to pin ***3 *** for 120V. >> >> For 240V they show Hot going to pin 3, neutral to 9, and ground to 5 (and >> 6). For 240V the only interconnects they show are from 1 to 11 and from 4 >> to 7 (as opposed to 4 to 8 for 120V). Again, I think that hot pin 3 is in >> error, and (probably) for 240V, one should wire hot to pin 4 BUT I HAVE NO >> WAY TO VERIFY THIS. >> >> HOWEVER, I did go back and re-verify what I wrote earlier on both my Nova/4 >> and (now) my S/140 as well and both have pin 3 as HOT. All 120V of it. >> >> Other than that, the interconnections I described below match the doc. The >> only variance is between hot for 120v (I say pin 3, they say 4) and hot for >> 240v (they say pin 3). >> >> Go figure. (Unfortunately, I don't have power supply drawings that I can >> use to arbitrate). > Thanks Jay, > > Using this, I was able to get the power supply going. All voltages > check out OK, so after some careful examination I've plugged in the > CPU board. The expected output on the console port is the "O" from > "OK"; the K isn't printed because there's no memory. > > Powered it on, and after some twiddling with the console cable pinout > (weird one) yes, there's the "O". > > Installed the memory board, powered it on again, and alas, still "O" > rather than "OK". The Field Engineer's Reference says that that means > a memory failure. > > Of course, the memory board could be faulty, but it could also be a > matter of incorrect jumper settings on the memory board. I haven't > been able to find a description of these yet. > > The board says "DGC BBU MEMORY", and contains 8 x 16 AM9016DPC ic's > (4116 equivalent). That makes it 128 16-bit kilowords of memory (no > parity or ECC, although there are 5 empty spots per row). > > There are 6 jumper positions labeled 16,17,18,19,0 and 1; each can > have a jumper in the 0 or in the 1 position. My board has a jumper in > the "0" position for jumpers 16, 17 and 18. No jumpers in the other > three positions: > > o o o o o o > 1 > o o o o o o > 0 | | | > o o o o o o > 16 17 18 19 0 1 > > Is anyone familiar with these? > > Camiel > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 17 15:34:04 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:34:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair? In-Reply-To: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Jun 16, 12 06:06:27 pm Message-ID: > > I have an old project laying around that I just spent another two hours > on .. > > It is an 1993 external parallel port attached CD-ROM. A company called > "Storage Devices Inc" made it, and IBM resold it. The model number is > SCD-683. There are some traces of it if you search the web, but not > much interesting. I have the drivers so that is not a problem. > > The CD-ROM is a 1x SCSI unit that uses a caddy. There is a parallel to > SCSI bridge board in the enclosure based on the NCR 53C80 chipset, which > was well known back then. The CD-ROM does show up and talk when used on > an XT running PC DOS 3.3; it responds to commands like eject and it lets > me see its error counts using a utility program. > > The problem is that it refuses to read any media that I give it. The > drive is very clean - I removed the top and had a look inside the > mechanism to be certain. It is a caddy loading model so I can't tell for > sure that the head has clear access but everything seems to be operating > freely. I'm using old pressed aluminum discs (OS/2 Warp) which should be > fine in any CD-ROM device. I have tried cleaning the heads with a > special CD that has the magic fibers on it, but nothing is helping. (I > even reached in gently with a Q-tip and isopropyl alcohol, but that did > not change anything.) Most older (at least) CD-ROM drives and CD players do muc hthe same thing when asked toread a disk. They go through this sequence : 1) Turn on laser, get intensity correct 2) Energize focus coil, move objective lense away from disk until focus point found (they normally do this a couple of times) 3) Start spindle motor,start to track, get speed correct. So, you want to see how far into that sequence it's getting. In particular, is the disk ever spinning when toy try to read it? If not, it's either that the spidnel motor or its drive is defective _OR_ that the thin never foudn the focus point, possibly due to problems with the laser. If the disk is spinning, there will be a testpoint on the photodiode preamplifier where you cna conenct a 'scope to see the 'RF Eye' pattern. Thsi point is often lavelled, amazingly, and conencting a 'scope there is a good next step. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 17 16:02:06 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 22:02:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Load Testing PDP11 Power Supplies In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Quinn" at Jun 17, 12 09:00:11 pm Message-ID: > > I am making progress testing the power supply for my 11/04 (BA11-K chassis) > and so far have worked through the power control box, transformer, fans and > the 15VDC regulator/Power Line monitor but have one question for the > group.... > > I am seeing in tolerance output voltages from the 15VDC regulator but I > haven't loaded tested it. Is this something I should do or if the unloaded > outputs are within tolerance then it is safe to use (once the other > regulators are done)? If the votlage drops on load, the machine might not work correctly, but in general no damage will be done. It is rare, but possible [1] for the output of a regualtor to rise on load. It's therefore always safest to do a load test [2] but it's less importnat than chackign the PSU off-load in the first place. [1] The normal casue of this is an swithcing regulator -- the H744, for example, but not IIRC< the +15V supply in the BA11-K -- where hte output capacitor has got a high ESR. You can get some spikes on the output several times the correct outptu votlage,adn they get worse asnm the laod increases. I had a suppy in an HP device that would work fine off load but where the crowbar would trip as soon as you loaded it. A newer capcitor solved the problem, once I'd worked out what was going on. [2] Car bulbs are nominally 12V, but car electricak systems run at 13.8V or so when the engine is running. Such blubs should stand 15V for a short time -- long enough to test the supply. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 17 15:40:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:40:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair? In-Reply-To: <4FDD6761.3090707@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 16, 12 10:13:05 pm Message-ID: > Anyhow, it's already broken. You're not going to make it worse. While I would agree that's probably true _in this case_, it could be very bad advice in other cases. You might have a unit with a trivial fault, but by messing around with it in the wrong way, you could turn it into a much worse problem. For example, you might have a floppy drive with just a drive belt probklem. But if you mess up the head alignment, you will then not only have to rpelace the belt but also get an alignment disk... Or you might haev a machine with an easy-to-get IC that's failed. Mess up the PSU or zap the thing with static, and yoy may have to also replace many much harder-to-get ICs -tony From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 16:57:33 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (iamcamiel at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:57:33 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector) In-Reply-To: <4FDE2EAB.5070909@charter.net> References: <4FDE2EAB.5070909@charter.net> Message-ID: <1091674278-1339970227-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1124683644-@b4.c2.bise7.blackberry> Is the row nearest to the front edge of the board pupulated in yours? Verzonden vanaf mijn BlackBerry?-toestel van T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Jay Jaeger Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 14:23:23 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Fwd: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector) I have an illustration in my DG "Installation and Packaging for Data General Products" 014-000605-02 - it is 1.5 inches thick 14 7/8 x 11, covering Nova 2 thru 4, Eclipse S/100 thru MV/1800, MP/100, MP/200 and various peripherals - really handy for jumper settings and the like.) that appears to match up (3 rows of 6 jumper positions each), but with different labelling. I also have this very board in my Nova 4 -- but apparently with less memory than you have. The illustration is thus in my book: o o o o o o w w w w w w 2 4 6 8 10 12 o o o o o o w w w w w w 1 3 5 7 9 13 o o o o o o According to this chart, then, you have w1, w3 and w5 inserted. The book says that w1, w3 and w5 are ALWAYS inserted and that w2, w4 and w6 are NEVER inserted. This is consistent with what you have and with what I have in my machine. The board can be populated as 32KB, 64KB, 128KB and 256KB. For a 256KB board, no other jumpers are inserted. For a 128KB board, W7 is inserted. For a 64KB board, W7 and W9 are inserted. For a 32KB board, W7, W9 and W11 are inserted. If yours is indeed 256KB (128K words) then no other jumpers should be present, and your board is jumpered as one would expect according to the doc. *My* board has every other row present, and so is a 128KB board. I thus have 4 rows out of the total of 8 populated, with 15 chips per populated row (and 5 empty spots in each of the populated rows). w7 is inserted, as one would expect from the doc. And, on my board the labels are the same ones you are seeing: 16, 17, 18, 19, 0, 1 (So I have 16, 17, 18 and 19 inserted in the "0" row -- the same as w1, w3, w5 and w7, above). Jay On 6/17/2012 10:02 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 6:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> Update. I did just find some DG Doc, in the Nova 4 16 Slot Illustrated Parts >> Breakdown (016-000940-00) that I have. >> >> Curiously, for 120v, they show Hot going to Pin *** 4 ***, but the plug >> otherwise wired exactly as I described in my previous message. But, I think >> that is in error, and one should wire hot to pin ***3 *** for 120V. >> >> For 240V they show Hot going to pin 3, neutral to 9, and ground to 5 (and >> 6). For 240V the only interconnects they show are from 1 to 11 and from 4 >> to 7 (as opposed to 4 to 8 for 120V). Again, I think that hot pin 3 is in >> error, and (probably) for 240V, one should wire hot to pin 4 BUT I HAVE NO >> WAY TO VERIFY THIS. >> >> HOWEVER, I did go back and re-verify what I wrote earlier on both my Nova/4 >> and (now) my S/140 as well and both have pin 3 as HOT. All 120V of it. >> >> Other than that, the interconnections I described below match the doc. The >> only variance is between hot for 120v (I say pin 3, they say 4) and hot for >> 240v (they say pin 3). >> >> Go figure. (Unfortunately, I don't have power supply drawings that I can >> use to arbitrate). > Thanks Jay, > > Using this, I was able to get the power supply going. All voltages > check out OK, so after some careful examination I've plugged in the > CPU board. The expected output on the console port is the "O" from > "OK"; the K isn't printed because there's no memory. > > Powered it on, and after some twiddling with the console cable pinout > (weird one) yes, there's the "O". > > Installed the memory board, powered it on again, and alas, still "O" > rather than "OK". The Field Engineer's Reference says that that means > a memory failure. > > Of course, the memory board could be faulty, but it could also be a > matter of incorrect jumper settings on the memory board. I haven't > been able to find a description of these yet. > > The board says "DGC BBU MEMORY", and contains 8 x 16 AM9016DPC ic's > (4116 equivalent). That makes it 128 16-bit kilowords of memory (no > parity or ECC, although there are 5 empty spots per row). > > There are 6 jumper positions labeled 16,17,18,19,0 and 1; each can > have a jumper in the 0 or in the 1 position. My board has a jumper in > the "0" position for jumpers 16, 17 and 18. No jumpers in the other > three positions: > > o o o o o o > 1 > o o o o o o > 0 | | | > o o o o o o > 16 17 18 19 0 1 > > Is anyone familiar with these? > > Camiel > > From cube1 at charter.net Sun Jun 17 17:09:55 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:09:55 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector) In-Reply-To: <1091674278-1339970227-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1124683644-@b4.c2.bise7.blackberry> References: <4FDE2EAB.5070909@charter.net> <1091674278-1339970227-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1124683644-@b4.c2.bise7.blackberry> Message-ID: <4FDE55B3.90000@charter.net> Row of??? If you mean memory chips, the answer is yes. Then a blank row, then the the next row of memory chips, and so on. On 6/17/2012 4:57 PM, iamcamiel at gmail.com wrote: > Is the row nearest to the front edge of the board pupulated in yours? > > Verzonden vanaf mijn BlackBerry?-toestel van T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay Jaeger > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 14:23:23 > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse > S/120 power connector) > > I have an illustration in my DG "Installation and Packaging for Data > General Products" 014-000605-02 - it is 1.5 inches thick 14 7/8 x 11, > covering Nova 2 thru 4, Eclipse S/100 thru MV/1800, MP/100, MP/200 and > various peripherals - really handy for jumper settings and the like.) > that appears to match up (3 rows of 6 jumper positions each), but with > different labelling. I also have this very board in my Nova 4 -- but > apparently with less memory than you have. > > The illustration is thus in my book: > > o o o o o o > w w w w w w > 2 4 6 8 10 12 > o o o o o o > w w w w w w > 1 3 5 7 9 13 > o o o o o o > > According to this chart, then, you have w1, w3 and w5 inserted. > > The book says that w1, w3 and w5 are ALWAYS inserted and that w2, w4 and > w6 are NEVER inserted. This is consistent with what you have and with > what I have in my machine. > > The board can be populated as 32KB, 64KB, 128KB and 256KB. > > For a 256KB board, no other jumpers are inserted. > For a 128KB board, W7 is inserted. > For a 64KB board, W7 and W9 are inserted. > For a 32KB board, W7, W9 and W11 are inserted. > > If yours is indeed 256KB (128K words) then no other jumpers should be > present, and your board is jumpered as one would expect according to the > doc. > > *My* board has every other row present, and so is a 128KB board. I thus > have 4 rows out of the total of 8 populated, with 15 chips per populated > row (and 5 empty spots in each of the populated rows). w7 is inserted, > as one would expect from the doc. And, on my board the labels are the > same ones you are seeing: 16, 17, 18, 19, 0, 1 (So I have 16, 17, 18 > and 19 inserted in the "0" row -- the same as w1, w3, w5 and w7, above). > > Jay > > On 6/17/2012 10:02 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 6:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >>> Update. I did just find some DG Doc, in the Nova 4 16 Slot Illustrated Parts >>> Breakdown (016-000940-00) that I have. >>> >>> Curiously, for 120v, they show Hot going to Pin *** 4 ***, but the plug >>> otherwise wired exactly as I described in my previous message. But, I think >>> that is in error, and one should wire hot to pin ***3 *** for 120V. >>> >>> For 240V they show Hot going to pin 3, neutral to 9, and ground to 5 (and >>> 6). For 240V the only interconnects they show are from 1 to 11 and from 4 >>> to 7 (as opposed to 4 to 8 for 120V). Again, I think that hot pin 3 is in >>> error, and (probably) for 240V, one should wire hot to pin 4 BUT I HAVE NO >>> WAY TO VERIFY THIS. >>> >>> HOWEVER, I did go back and re-verify what I wrote earlier on both my Nova/4 >>> and (now) my S/140 as well and both have pin 3 as HOT. All 120V of it. >>> >>> Other than that, the interconnections I described below match the doc. The >>> only variance is between hot for 120v (I say pin 3, they say 4) and hot for >>> 240v (they say pin 3). >>> >>> Go figure. (Unfortunately, I don't have power supply drawings that I can >>> use to arbitrate). >> Thanks Jay, >> >> Using this, I was able to get the power supply going. All voltages >> check out OK, so after some careful examination I've plugged in the >> CPU board. The expected output on the console port is the "O" from >> "OK"; the K isn't printed because there's no memory. >> >> Powered it on, and after some twiddling with the console cable pinout >> (weird one) yes, there's the "O". >> >> Installed the memory board, powered it on again, and alas, still "O" >> rather than "OK". The Field Engineer's Reference says that that means >> a memory failure. >> >> Of course, the memory board could be faulty, but it could also be a >> matter of incorrect jumper settings on the memory board. I haven't >> been able to find a description of these yet. >> >> The board says "DGC BBU MEMORY", and contains 8 x 16 AM9016DPC ic's >> (4116 equivalent). That makes it 128 16-bit kilowords of memory (no >> parity or ECC, although there are 5 empty spots per row). >> >> There are 6 jumper positions labeled 16,17,18,19,0 and 1; each can >> have a jumper in the 0 or in the 1 position. My board has a jumper in >> the "0" position for jumpers 16, 17 and 18. No jumpers in the other >> three positions: >> >> o o o o o o >> 1 >> o o o o o o >> 0 | | | >> o o o o o o >> 16 17 18 19 0 1 >> >> Is anyone familiar with these? >> >> Camiel >> >> > From d235j.1 at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 19:27:32 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 20:27:32 -0400 Subject: Polaroid ProPalette 8000 Film Recorder in Richmond, VA area Message-ID: <9046651357454924299@unknownmsgid> So I was digging around looking for one of these (an 8000-line CRT-based film recorder, basically it's used to print digital photos to photographic film), and I managed to find one being liquidated. Unfortunately they will not ship, and I'm in Philadelphia, which is rather far from Richmond. So if anyone wants to pick this up, feel free - $20 or so is quite a deal, as this model can fetch $350 or so on eBay. http://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=18024&acctid=226 It hasn't sold the first time they listed it (at $35) so I don't expect it to go for much. I'm willing to pay the cost, and for shipping and the trouble, but if you're doing photographic stuff, by all means use it. I just don't want to see it get dumped or recycled, like most unsold surplus items end up. Thanks! --David Ryskalczyk From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Jun 17 19:28:06 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,... In-Reply-To: References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Dude, I apologize, but someone got to it first. I will be able to provide a scan of the book (which is an excellent assembly language tutorial) w/my digital camera. ________________________________ From: Randy Kindig To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 6:41 PM Subject: Re: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,... Randall Kindig 2505 S 500 W Lebanon, IN 46052 Thanks! Sent from my iPhone On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:43 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > just send me your address. Jim Butterfield. Sent or tossed by Monday. > From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 23:37:56 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 23:37:56 -0500 Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,... In-Reply-To: <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Dude, I apologize, but someone got to it first. I will be able to provide a scan of the book (which is an excellent assembly language tutorial) w/my digital camera. > Probably can be found here: http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/books.htm#MACHINE_LANGUAGE_and_ASSEMBLY_LANGUAGE From hauke at Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE Sun Jun 17 10:05:07 2012 From: hauke at Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:05:07 +0200 Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair? In-Reply-To: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com> Message-ID: At 18:06 Uhr -0500 16.6.2012, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >So, any ideas on what I can do to clean the head further? (It might just >be hopelessly out of alignment - I don't know the history of the drive.) For a 20 year old CDROM drive, I'd expect the laser diode to fade. HAND, hauke -- "It's never straight up and down" (DEVO) From nudnick1944 at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 17 16:26:01 2012 From: nudnick1944 at sbcglobal.net (The Nudnik) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 16:26:01 -0500 Subject: Tandy DWP 220 printer Message-ID: <2DD41E783A454BAFA6BE9BD6D75D9440@Nudnik> We have a Tandy DWP 220 printer complete with extra Daisy Wheels, cables & ribbon cartridges. The printer is in mint condition. We?re moving to Hawaii soon and we are looking to clear out our closets... Please respond if you or someone you know might be interested. Regards, Stu in K C That?s Why They Call Me... The Nudnik!!! From iamcamiel at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 06:37:15 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:37:15 +0200 Subject: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector) In-Reply-To: <4FDE55B3.90000@charter.net> References: <4FDE2EAB.5070909@charter.net> <1091674278-1339970227-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1124683644-@b4.c2.bise7.blackberry> <4FDE55B3.90000@charter.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Row of??? > > If you mean memory chips, the answer is yes. ?Then a blank row, then the the > next row of memory chips, and so on. Yes, that's what I meant. I'm trying to figure out which row has the lowest 16KB of memory (assuming they're not interleaved). I've tried piggybacking 4116 chips onto the first and last row of memory chips to no avail. I do not have enough 4116'es to do the entire board. What does work though is the console interface. I can hit the reset button and get the ? prompt. I can list the contents of registers and memory. Is there a way to see which memory chips are suspect from this output? Bruce Ray at Wild Hare has been helping out too (off-list). He asked for specific part numbers, so here goes: Chassis : M0061411 D1882 P T005 12080 R67 NVR Supply : E0470375 D0882 P A005 12074 R26 T005 12429 R30 Backplane : E0502539 D1282 P A005 12072 R10 T005 12073 R10 0 - Supply : E0526152 D1682 P A005 12062 R48 T005 18878 R00 1 - CPU : E0471713 2 - RAM : E0752855 3 - DIABLO?: Rianda Electronics Assy No 020000-21H 5 - SERIAL?: E0859602 D0683 P A005 2041 R16 T005 3523 R10 10 - TAPE : Western Peripherals TC120 Mag Tape Controller 12 - SERL? : LV0010629 D3883 P A2041 R16 T3523 R10 15 - SMD : ZETACO Model 295 Storage Module Disk Controller It looks like the CPU and RAM have most of their identification codes cut off. On the back of the backplane, the following connections are made: 1 - console port 2 - A-Side and B-Side terminators 3 - Two wide ribbon connectors ending in a 50-pin MRAC connector. There's a hand-written label attached that reads: Rianda Electronics AC020075-002X-06 DIABLO SEP 85 This leads me to suspect that the Rianda card in slot 3 is a diablo disk controller. Can anyone confirm this 5 - 20 pin card edge connector, 5 wires connected (A81, A85, B54, B69, B99 as far as I can tell) 10 - 1 50-pin card-edge connector and 2 26-pin card edge connectors 12 - same as 5 15 - none, the ZETACO has its connectors on the front of the card 16 - two large connectors going to a 100-pin card edge connector. There is a card that fits this with a hand-written label that reads: 879-0066-000A Terminator I/O Board Rev. A - Term. I/O - 6 5-16-83 On the A-side of the backplane there are some wire-wrap connections on pins 93-96: 4 : A94 - 5 : A94 4 : A96 - 5 : A96 5 : A93 - 9 : A93 5 : A95 - 9 : A95 11 : A94 - 12 : A94 11 : A96 - 12 : A96 12 : A93 - 14 : A93 12 : A95 - 14 : A95 Cheers, Camiel From cube1 at charter.net Mon Jun 18 08:21:58 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 08:21:58 -0500 Subject: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector) In-Reply-To: References: <4FDE2EAB.5070909@charter.net> <1091674278-1339970227-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1124683644-@b4.c2.bise7.blackberry> <4FDE55B3.90000@charter.net> Message-ID: <4FDF2B76.5030508@charter.net> The maintenance manual page 60 indicates that the 4 accumulators have the address information? If you can do that much, why not just write yourself a really simple machine language program to test the memory? On 6/18/2012 6:37 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> Row of??? >> >> If you mean memory chips, the answer is yes. Then a blank row, then the the >> next row of memory chips, and so on. > Yes, that's what I meant. I'm trying to figure out which row has the > lowest 16KB of memory (assuming they're not interleaved). I've tried > piggybacking 4116 chips onto the first and last row of memory chips to > no avail. I do not have enough 4116'es to do the entire board. > > > What does work though is the console interface. I can hit the reset > button and get the ? prompt. I can list the contents of registers and > memory. Is there a way to see which memory chips are suspect from this > output? > > > Bruce Ray at Wild Hare has been helping out too (off-list). He asked > for specific part numbers, so here goes: > Chassis : M0061411 D1882 P T005 12080 R67 > NVR Supply : E0470375 D0882 P A005 12074 R26 T005 12429 R30 > Backplane : E0502539 D1282 P A005 12072 R10 T005 12073 R10 > 0 - Supply : E0526152 D1682 P A005 12062 R48 T005 18878 R00 > 1 - CPU : E0471713 > 2 - RAM : E0752855 > 3 - DIABLO?: Rianda Electronics Assy No 020000-21H > 5 - SERIAL?: E0859602 D0683 P A005 2041 R16 T005 3523 R10 > 10 - TAPE : Western Peripherals TC120 Mag Tape Controller > 12 - SERL? : LV0010629 D3883 P A2041 R16 T3523 R10 > 15 - SMD : ZETACO Model 295 Storage Module Disk Controller > > It looks like the CPU and RAM have most of their identification codes cut off. > > On the back of the backplane, the following connections are made: > 1 - console port > 2 - A-Side and B-Side terminators > 3 - Two wide ribbon connectors ending in a 50-pin MRAC connector. > There's a hand-written label attached that reads: > Rianda Electronics > AC020075-002X-06 > DIABLO SEP 85 > This leads me to suspect that the Rianda card in slot 3 is a > diablo disk controller. Can anyone confirm this > 5 - 20 pin card edge connector, 5 wires connected (A81, A85, B54, B69, > B99 as far as I can tell) > 10 - 1 50-pin card-edge connector and 2 26-pin card edge connectors > 12 - same as 5 > 15 - none, the ZETACO has its connectors on the front of the card > 16 - two large connectors going to a 100-pin card edge connector. > There is a card that fits this with a hand-written label that reads: > 879-0066-000A > Terminator > I/O Board > Rev. A - Term. I/O - 6 > 5-16-83 > On the A-side of the backplane there are some wire-wrap connections > on pins 93-96: > 4 : A94 - 5 : A94 > 4 : A96 - 5 : A96 > 5 : A93 - 9 : A93 > 5 : A95 - 9 : A95 > 11 : A94 - 12 : A94 > 11 : A96 - 12 : A96 > 12 : A93 - 14 : A93 > 12 : A95 - 14 : A95 > > Cheers, > > Camiel > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jun 18 07:39:11 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 05:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,... In-Reply-To: <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > Dude, I apologize, but someone got to it first. I will be able to > provide a scan of the book (which is an excellent assembly language > tutorial) w/my digital camera. No need: http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/books/pdf/Machine_Language_for_the_Commodore_Revised_and_Expanded_Edition.zip (and stop top posting) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From james at slor.net Mon Jun 18 08:51:15 2012 From: james at slor.net (James) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 09:51:15 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Original Kaypro 16 floppies Message-ID: <01ce01cd4d59$6e9e5230$4bdaf690$@slor.net> Thought I'd try one more time. Anyone? -----Original Message----- From: James [mailto:james at slor.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:41 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Wanted: Original Kaypro 16 floppies I've been looking for an original floppy disk set for my Kaypro 16 (not 16/2 or any others) for a while now. Anyone on this list have a set to part with? Or, worst case, anyone have a set they could copy/image for me? Thanks! James From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 10:37:42 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:37:42 -0500 Subject: C64 temporary PSU Message-ID: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com> Has anyone (probably!) hacked together a PSU for a C64 using a PC PSU? How close do the AC lines have to be to a 9V sine wave? I've got someone offering me an unknown-condition C64/1541/1702 which is missing its PSU (and possibly the cable between the drive and computer), so if I do bite I'd be looking to do a quick hack just to see how operational everything is before I go trying to find a genuine PSU from somewhere. TBH, I'm not sure what my options are for getting software onto disk, either - it's not clear whether the current owner has any media at all (I get the impression that they've just unearthed the machine in storage, but various bits that they once had have gone missing over the years). A quick google seems to suggest that there are ways and means though, given that I'd have a 1541 (if it works ;) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 11:15:05 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:15:05 -0500 Subject: ebay: 70 Commodore PETs for sale (Boise, ID) In-Reply-To: References: <1339836699.80980.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4FDC5400.7020305@fenz.net> Message-ID: <4FDF5409.5020106@gmail.com> On 06/16/2012 04:22 PM, Richard wrote: > There isn't much recycle value in these because you have to *pay* to > have the monitor recycled. I did offload a CRT - just the tube - at an electronics recycling event recently, but I suspect that wouldn't scale to 70 of them :-) > They're big, they're heavy and expensive to ship. And, IIRC, prone to various electronic faults - some of which are time-related, whether the machine is used or not. Not to mention that the metal cases seem to enjoy rusting if they're not stored well. cheers Jules From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 11:12:16 2012 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:12:16 -0500 Subject: Polaroid ProPalette 8000 Film Recorder in Richmond, VA area In-Reply-To: <9046651357454924299@unknownmsgid> References: <9046651357454924299@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Those things are sooo cool! I was a sales engineer at NASA, and probably sold 20+ Matrix QRZ film recorders @25K per copy, and kept one for myself. Of course it beat the pants off the Pallete in terms of resolution and writing speed. Enjoy your toy! Randy > From: d235j.1 at gmail.com > Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 20:27:32 -0400 > Subject: Polaroid ProPalette 8000 Film Recorder in Richmond, VA area > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > So I was digging around looking for one of these (an 8000-line > CRT-based film recorder, basically it's used to print digital photos > to photographic film), and I managed to find one being liquidated. > Unfortunately they will not ship, and I'm in Philadelphia, which is > rather far from Richmond. So if anyone wants to pick this up, feel > free - $20 or so is quite a deal, as this model can fetch $350 or so > on eBay. > > http://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=18024&acctid=226 > > It hasn't sold the first time they listed it (at $35) so I don't > expect it to go for much. I'm willing to pay the cost, and for > shipping and the trouble, but if you're doing photographic stuff, by > all means use it. I just don't want to see it get dumped or recycled, > like most unsold surplus items end up. > > Thanks! > > --David Ryskalczyk From ray at arachelian.com Mon Jun 18 11:21:56 2012 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 12:21:56 -0400 Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system? Message-ID: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com> Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola 68K system that works well enough to install either linux/bsd in? Would like to be able to compile and test stuff with GCC to 68K assembly while on the go from an intel macbook pro. Something that could run under MESS would be nice, as an example, but would like a unixy tool-chain. From ryan at hack.net Mon Jun 18 11:55:57 2012 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:55:57 -0500 Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system? In-Reply-To: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com> References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net> Boy, I'd love this too. It seems like the UAE and Atari people have partially supported the 040+ MMU (looks like no one is interested in the 030 MMU), but it would be great if there was just a command line emulator, sorta like a a live monitor. Let us know what you find, Ryan On Jun 18, 2012, at 11:21 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola 68K system that works > well enough to install either linux/bsd in? Would like to be able to > compile and test stuff with GCC to 68K assembly while on the go from an > intel macbook pro. > > Something that could run under MESS would be nice, as an example, but > would like a unixy tool-chain. > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 18 12:05:45 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:05:45 -0700 Subject: C64 temporary PSU In-Reply-To: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com> References: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd think there has to be something on the web about hacking a powersupply together. A few years back I went looking for a specific model of 3rd party supply that was recommended to me and got one off eBay. My main C64 has two different interfaces that take SD cards, much nicer than dealing with floppies. 10-15 years ago it was pretty easy to hack a cable together that would let your PC talk to a 1541 drive. Not sure about now, there are USB versions, but I think they take a lot more effort. Zane At 10:37 AM -0500 6/18/12, Jules Richardson wrote: >Has anyone (probably!) hacked together a PSU for a C64 using a PC >PSU? How close do the AC lines have to be to a 9V sine wave? > >I've got someone offering me an unknown-condition C64/1541/1702 >which is missing its PSU (and possibly the cable between the drive >and computer), so if I do bite I'd be looking to do a quick hack >just to see how operational everything is before I go trying to find >a genuine PSU from somewhere. > >TBH, I'm not sure what my options are for getting software onto >disk, either - it's not clear whether the current owner has any >media at all (I get the impression that they've just unearthed the >machine in storage, but various bits that they once had have gone >missing over the years). A quick google seems to suggest that there >are ways and means though, given that I'd have a 1541 (if it works ;) > >cheers > >Jules -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From ryan at hack.net Mon Jun 18 12:06:22 2012 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 12:06:22 -0500 Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system? In-Reply-To: <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net> References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com> <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net> Message-ID: <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net> Here's the Atari one: http://aranym.sourceforge.net/ On Jun 18, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Ryan Brooks wrote: > Boy, I'd love this too. It seems like the UAE and Atari people have partially supported the 040+ MMU (looks like no one is interested in the 030 MMU), but it would be great if there was just a command line emulator, sorta like a a live monitor. > > Let us know what you find, > > Ryan > > > On Jun 18, 2012, at 11:21 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola 68K system that works >> well enough to install either linux/bsd in? Would like to be able to >> compile and test stuff with GCC to 68K assembly while on the go from an >> intel macbook pro. >> >> Something that could run under MESS would be nice, as an example, but >> would like a unixy tool-chain. >> > > From ray at arachelian.com Mon Jun 18 12:07:17 2012 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:07:17 -0400 Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system? In-Reply-To: <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net> References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com> <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net> Message-ID: <4FDF6045.5030203@arachelian.com> On 06/18/2012 12:55 PM, Ryan Brooks wrote: > Boy, I'd love this too. It seems like the UAE and Atari people have partially supported the 040+ MMU (looks like no one is interested in the 030 MMU), but it would be great if there was just a command line emulator, sorta like a a live monitor. > > Let us know what you find, > 030 would be perfectly fine... Sadly BSD and Linux both would require a working MMU... I'd be happy with just a text console and a shell. Basically want to experiment with stuff I'd normally do on the NeXT. UAE might do the trick if I can get a unix with GCC for it. I suppose in the absolute worst case I can always use Think C, MPW, or CodeWarrior on Basilisk II, but, I'd prefer GCC, so I don't have to go fiddling with the compiler switches and other incompatibilities. From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 12:12:03 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:12:03 -0400 Subject: C64 temporary PSU In-Reply-To: References: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Zane, Catweasel definitely has a method to connect a 1541 to a PC.best USB option is still the zoomfloppy (xumfloppy). Kyroflux just recently did a TON of work on the g64 format,so there should be something there as well. > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:05:45 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: healyzh at aracnet.com > Subject: Re: C64 temporary PSU > > I'd think there has to be something on the web about hacking a > powersupply together. A few years back I went looking for a specific > model of 3rd party supply that was recommended to me and got one off > eBay. > > My main C64 has two different interfaces that take SD cards, much > nicer than dealing with floppies. > > 10-15 years ago it was pretty easy to hack a cable together that > would let your PC talk to a 1541 drive. Not sure about now, there > are USB versions, but I think they take a lot more effort. > > Zane > > > > At 10:37 AM -0500 6/18/12, Jules Richardson wrote: > >Has anyone (probably!) hacked together a PSU for a C64 using a PC > >PSU? How close do the AC lines have to be to a 9V sine wave? > > > >I've got someone offering me an unknown-condition C64/1541/1702 > >which is missing its PSU (and possibly the cable between the drive > >and computer), so if I do bite I'd be looking to do a quick hack > >just to see how operational everything is before I go trying to find > >a genuine PSU from somewhere. > > > >TBH, I'm not sure what my options are for getting software onto > >disk, either - it's not clear whether the current owner has any > >media at all (I get the impression that they've just unearthed the > >machine in storage, but various bits that they once had have gone > >missing over the years). A quick google seems to suggest that there > >are ways and means though, given that I'd have a 1541 (if it works ;) > > > >cheers > > > >Jules > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 12:17:40 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:17:40 -0300 Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com> <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net> <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net> Message-ID: <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook> Dear friends, Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC for learning? I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware Thanks Alexandre --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From ray at arachelian.com Mon Jun 18 12:21:31 2012 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:21:31 -0400 Subject: Apple Lisa Twiggy Schematics! In-Reply-To: <4FDF62BD.6090202@arachelian.com> References: <4FDF62BD.6090202@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4FDF639B.9090103@arachelian.com> Courtesy of John Woodall of http://VintageMicros.com direct link: http://lisa.sunder.net/TwiggySchematicsRight.pdf (available on this page: http://lisaem.sunder.net/books.html ) Thanks John!!! From ryan at hack.net Mon