From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Jun  1 00:05:01 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 01:05:01 -0400
Subject: CDP1802?
In-Reply-To: <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook>
References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAALmim=GsXn2aRLstGEz8+T2G7d__0jNEsvhigcP7Jj8us02FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKUYOb34rM4OM9NxWte_VEueuVgJkZf_E8Gdm0E3B_y6RB7EZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com>

On 05/31/2012 02:51 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>    Hey you all!!! Just got a new processor, CDP1802
> 
>    What interesting can I do with that? :o)

  Great!  This is a really nice ELF implementation:

  http://www.elf-emulation.com/microelf.html

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Fri Jun  1 01:15:11 2012
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 23:15:11 -0700
Subject: DecTalk Express debugging?
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SEgkRFSJo09kz5TfR5UAjwJ94A3Tdj40WZCE6=gX=5kFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FB95F4C.2020707@mail.msu.edu>
 <CAEfH1SEgkRFSJo09kz5TfR5UAjwJ94A3Tdj40WZCE6=gX=5kFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FC85DEF.3070905@mail.msu.edu>

On 5/20/2012 11:00 PM, Jason T wrote:
> On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Josh Dersch<derschjo at mail.msu.edu>  wrote:
>> This unit has a rechargable ni-cad battery in it (that I'm pretty sure no
>> longer holds a charge) and I'm curious whether a functioning battery is
>> required for normal operation.
> I have an express also (definitely on-topic: old, DEC, cool :)   I
> _think_ it should work off of the AC adapter, regardless of the
> condition of the internal battery.  In my case, the power connector
> was damaged, so I wired in a 9v battery connector where the NiCd
> connects.  The DECTalk works fine off of the alkaline battery.  It
> should announce itself a couple seconds after turning it on with the
> wheel-switch.  I haven't used it any beyond testing, so I don't know
> how much life you'll get running on a 9v but you may want to try that
> configuration with yours just to see if the DECTalk is otherwise
> working or not.
>

Thanks for the information and the suggestions.  I was playing around 
with it again last night and the fuse blew again.  I can't find a 
schematic or anything useful to aid in tracking down the fault, alas.  
But, fortunately the place I purchased it from has kindly offered a 
refund, and they have a couple other DecTalks in stock, so I'll be 
sending it back for a replacement.   Maybe I'll have better luck with 
that one :).

Thanks again,
Josh


From mc68010 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 01:28:18 2012
From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 23:28:18 -0700
Subject: IBM 973 ?
In-Reply-To: <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com>
References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAALmim=GsXn2aRLstGEz8+T2G7d__0jNEsvhigcP7Jj8us02FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKUYOb34rM4OM9NxWte_VEueuVgJkZf_E8Gdm0E3B_y6RB7EZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4FC86102.3010803@gmail.com>

What is this thing ? Really cool looking.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290721494251



From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 01:43:29 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 08:43:29 +0200
Subject: Philips P800 family minis
In-Reply-To: <m1SaAAy-000J4dC@p850ug1>
References: <000c01cd3f0d$cc5045f0$64f0d1d0$@camicom.com>
 <m1SaAAy-000J4dC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5Tyr2a5pJnk4Yepu-bFKmQUqpZvbwEh+m4jXeXjgcc5YA@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/31/12, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> As for the cartridge drive, I'd take the cover off before driving home
> with it) and inspect the positioner). Try _very_ carefully_ to pull the
> carriage towards the speindle. If it will move (and don't pull it far
> enough to load the heads!), it needs to be restrained. If there's a
> locking bracket it'll be quite obvious, you may have to remove it, turn
> it round and screw it back in place, for example.

>From the pictures on eBay, the disc drives look like they are the P824
type mentioned in the P856 manuals on Theo Engels' site
(http://www.theoengel.nl/P800/P856-P857_System_Handbook_p4.pdf). This
manual mentions that the cartridges are IBM 5440 compatible. The drive
pictured in the book looks very similar to an IBM 5444 (with the big
clamps on each side). Any moving procedures for these drives that
anyone's interested in? Disk alignment issues I should be aware of?

> As for powering them up, again, nothing special. The noraml visual
> inspection, then test the PSUs on dummy load is all you need to do.

That's the usual routine. I'm figuring these have heavy linear power
supplies, right?

> These machines vary a bit in the CPU design. The P850 is hard-wired
> logic. The P855, 852, 856, etc are microcoded TTL (I think). The P851 is
> custom Philips bitslice ICs. The P854 is AMD2900 bitslice. The P853 (I
> think) is a custom single-chip LSI implementation of the processor.

I think Jos correctly identified the blinkenlights one as a P856 or
P857. The other two look like they might be P854's. Will post actual
model numbers and card id's once I've picked them up.

I also need to find a way to haul these upstairs... I don't think my
wife will be all that thrilled to have them sit in the living room for
a prolongued period.

Cheers,

Camiel


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Fri Jun  1 03:36:42 2012
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 10:36:42 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Resistors (was: Software for OCR'ing paper tape?)
In-Reply-To: <m1Sa9ol-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <m1Sa9ol-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206011029440.8244@linuxserv.home>

On Thu, 31 May 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
>> I've used 10M resistors, not often, mind you, but I have.  I think
>
> I think the larged 'normal looking' resistor with coloured bands that
> I've seen/used was 22M, Maybe 56N

The Anita Mk VIII is full of 22M and 18M resistors, mostly on the digit 
modules. They are used in conjunction with the cold cathode relais tubes.
The problem with those old carbon film resistors is that they increase 
their resistance when they age, so at the end you have to replace all 
those in an Anita that have gone over 25M, otherwise you'll have a very 
non-deterministically working machine. (Next problem with the Anita are 
the selenium diodes in the logic, a nightmare...)

Christian


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 04:30:26 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 06:30:26 -0300
Subject: CDP1802?
References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAALmim=GsXn2aRLstGEz8+T2G7d__0jNEsvhigcP7Jj8us02FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKUYOb34rM4OM9NxWte_VEueuVgJkZf_E8Gdm0E3B_y6RB7EZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook>


    TIL311 displays? I pass =) These displays are expensive...

    But I'll take a look at the design and maybe redesign the display part 
:)

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 2:05 AM
Subject: Re: CDP1802?


> On 05/31/2012 02:51 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>>    Hey you all!!! Just got a new processor, CDP1802
>>
>>    What interesting can I do with that? :o)
>
>  Great!  This is a really nice ELF implementation:
>
>  http://www.elf-emulation.com/microelf.html
>
>           -Dave
>
> -- 
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA 



From rickb at bensene.com  Fri Jun  1 09:09:59 2012
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 07:09:59 -0700
Subject: IBM 973 ?
In-Reply-To: <4FC86102.3010803@gmail.com>
References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAALmim=GsXn2aRLstGEz8+T2G7d__0jNEsvhigcP7Jj8us02FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKUYOb34rM4OM9NxWte_VEueuVgJkZf_E8Gdm0E3B_y6RB7EZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com>
 <4FC86102.3010803@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D42E5@mail.bensene.com>

mc68010 wrote:
> 
> What is this thing ? Really cool looking.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/290721494251

This looks to be the operator's console from an IBM 610 Auto-point computer. 
 There is a lot more to this machine than this device.  By itself, the device isn't really useful, but it is indeed a beautiful display piece.
IBM called the 610  a computer in marketing materials, but internally, it was known as a "Personal Calculator".
I consider the machine programmable calculator rather than a computer, because it isn't a stored program machine.  Programs were read step at a time from paper tape, and a magnetic drum was used for numeric data storage (not program steps).

See http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/610.html for more information.

Too bad the rest of it isn't available - it is definitely a very cool machine.

Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com



From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 09:35:35 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 15:35:35 +0100
Subject: Acorn Archimedes at 25
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHnakpLRsAV5hLjn+-ATOScG=3i4Mc1R_meGfoWbaW71g@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting retrospective piece on The Register. (Not one of mine!)

http://www.reghardware.com/2012/06/01/acorn_archimedes_is_25_years_old/

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Jun  1 14:39:04 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 15:39:04 -0400
Subject: CDP1802?
In-Reply-To: <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook>
References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAALmim=GsXn2aRLstGEz8+T2G7d__0jNEsvhigcP7Jj8us02FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKUYOb34rM4OM9NxWte_VEueuVgJkZf_E8Gdm0E3B_y6RB7EZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com>
 <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <4FC91A58.60202@neurotica.com>

On 06/01/2012 05:30 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>    TIL311 displays? I pass =) These displays are expensive...
> 
>    But I'll take a look at the design and maybe redesign the display
> part :)

  Heck, just use LEDs, man.  The switches are binary, I think the LEDs
should be too!

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 15:48:13 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 16:48:13 -0400
Subject: CDP1802?
In-Reply-To: <4FC91A58.60202@neurotica.com>
References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAALmim=GsXn2aRLstGEz8+T2G7d__0jNEsvhigcP7Jj8us02FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKUYOb34rM4OM9NxWte_VEueuVgJkZf_E8Gdm0E3B_y6RB7EZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook>
 <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com>
 <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook>
 <4FC91A58.60202@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimk6Gru-DhVx3G-J9PqcC2UH1v1b_7stQOYUL4R8YrsA_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
> On 06/01/2012 05:30 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>> ? ?TIL311 displays? I pass =) These displays are expensive...
>>
>> ? ?But I'll take a look at the design and maybe redesign the display
>> part :)
>
> ?Heck, just use LEDs, man. ?The switches are binary, I think the LEDs
> should be too!

By all means you can use individual LEDs, but I got my start on the
1802 as a lad and I always loved the dot-matrix hex digits.  Yes, the
TIL311s can be expensive - they were expensive in the 1970s too.

Great processor.  Fun times!

-ethan



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 16:00:47 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 18:00:47 -0300
Subject: CDP1802?
References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAALmim=GsXn2aRLstGEz8+T2G7d__0jNEsvhigcP7Jj8us02FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKUYOb34rM4OM9NxWte_VEueuVgJkZf_E8Gdm0E3B_y6RB7EZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com>
 <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC91A58.60202@neurotica.com>
 <CAALmimk6Gru-DhVx3G-J9PqcC2UH1v1b_7stQOYUL4R8YrsA_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0eb501cd4039$a40fe0f0$6500a8c0@tababook>


    I love the visual of the TIL311, but they are hellish expensive in 
Brazil. I'd prefer to use normal digits instead... :)

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: CDP1802?


> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> 
> wrote:
>> On 06/01/2012 05:30 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>>> TIL311 displays? I pass =) These displays are expensive...
>>>
>>> But I'll take a look at the design and maybe redesign the display
>>> part :)
>>
>> Heck, just use LEDs, man. The switches are binary, I think the LEDs
>> should be too!
>
> By all means you can use individual LEDs, but I got my start on the
> 1802 as a lad and I always loved the dot-matrix hex digits.  Yes, the
> TIL311s can be expensive - they were expensive in the 1970s too.
>
> Great processor.  Fun times!
>
> -ethan
> 



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun  1 15:53:54 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 21:53:54 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Philips P800 family minis
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5Tyr2a5pJnk4Yepu-bFKmQUqpZvbwEh+m4jXeXjgcc5YA@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jun 1, 12 08:43:29 am
Message-ID: <m1SaYrB-000J4cC@p850ug1>

> 
> >From the pictures on eBay, the disc drives look like they are the P824
> type mentioned in the P856 manuals on Theo Engels' site

Unfortuantely I know very little about these drives. I certianly don't 
have the technical manual or anything...

> (http://www.theoengel.nl/P800/P856-P857_System_Handbook_p4.pdf). This
> manual mentions that the cartridges are IBM 5440 compatible. The drive
> pictured in the book looks very similar to an IBM 5444 (with the big
> clamps on each side). Any moving procedures for these drives that
> anyone's interested in? Disk alignment issues I should be aware of?

I think you need to ispect them and find if the cariage needs locking and 
if so, how to do it. Oh, and if possible, remvoe the disk pack from the 
drive before moving it too.

As for alignemtn, don't dismantle the heads or positioner unless you have 
the alignment pack, and don't fiddle with any presets or repalce 
components in the servo circuit unless you have to. Otherwise no real 
problems/

> 
> > As for powering them up, again, nothing special. The noraml visual
> > inspection, then test the PSUs on dummy load is all you need to do.
> 
> That's the usual routine. I'm figuring these have heavy linear power
> supplies, right?

Not always...

 The P850 PSU is a big linear thing (I seem to recall paralleled 2N3055s 
as pass transistors). 

I can't comment on the P856 one, I've never seen that series of machines

The P851 has a mains trasformer follwoed by regualtor PCBs. Most are 
linear, I think the 5V oen might be a switching regulator, I would have 
to check

The P854 supply is a full swithcer (or maybe 2 of them). I have the 
manaul for that, complete with all the waveforms for the chopper circuit. 
And the wonderful instructions to run the supply off an isolating 
transformer, but if that's not possible to disconenct the maisn werth 
wire in the 'scope mains plug and take great care. Err, yes. Having a 
'scope floating at mains voltage is not the sort of thing I want to do...

There may also be battery backup for the memory suppkies in later 
machines. I know the P851 (whcih I don;t think you're getting) had an 
optiuonal PCB carrying 12 NiCd cells and not much else. THe P854 has an 
option (?) to fit a NiCd pack inside one of the PSUs. You wil lwant ot 
ispect this for leaking cells, etc.

Let me know what you have and we can probably work soemthing out. It 
appers you're getting a good set of manuals, I would be patient and read 
through (at least) the heardware manauls before taking too much apart and 
certainly before pwoering anything up. Yes, I know the exciteemtn of 
getting a new toy, I also know the pain of damaing it because you didn't 
Read The Fine Manual (and to be fair, the Philips manuals are pretty good).

> 
> > These machines vary a bit in the CPU design. The P850 is hard-wired
> > logic. The P855, 852, 856, etc are microcoded TTL (I think). The P851 is
> > custom Philips bitslice ICs. The P854 is AMD2900 bitslice. The P853 (I
> > think) is a custom single-chip LSI implementation of the processor.
> 
> I think Jos correctly identified the blinkenlights one as a P856 or
> P857. The other two look like they might be P854's. Will post actual
> model numbers and card id's once I've picked them up.

They look like P854s to me. Those have a keypad frontpanel (controlled by 
an 8048 iIRC) with vacuum fluorescent displays.Quite fun.

My P854 manuals i the preliminary one. In particualr I don't have the 
microcode sources and I don't have much information on the panel 
hardware. I hope you get this information, I look forward to reading it.

> 
> I also need to find a way to haul these upstairs... I don't think my
> wife will be all that thrilled to have them sit in the living room for
> a prolongued period.

The P854 CPU is quite light (I can easily carry it). The 856 looks a lot 
heavier (for example, I can lift a P850, but wouldn't want to carry it 
very far), the driveare probably heavy too.

Don;'t forget these thins come apart, though. Pullign all the PCBs makes 
a suprising difference to the weight, just make sure you know which slots 
they go back in. Similarly removing the PSUs can help (and you might want 
to do that anyway to be able to inspect them.

-tony


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Fri Jun  1 18:16:55 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 00:16:55 +0100
Subject: Technical Specs of DEC Cables
Message-ID: <074501cd404c$a41f0180$ec5d0480$@ntlworld.com>

Is there a reference somewhere that tells me exactly the spec of various DEC
cables?

For example I think I need a BC13B (connects VCB02 to monitor, keyboard and
mouse), but I have a BC19S which *seems* identical. All I can find are
resellers that list part numbers, one or two name the cables, but don't give
the technical information that gives me any idea if these two are
interchangeable or not.

Thanks

Rob



From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Jun  1 18:26:57 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 16:26:57 -0700
Subject: CDP1802?
In-Reply-To: <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook>
References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAALmim=GsXn2aRLstGEz8+T2G7d__0jNEsvhigcP7Jj8us02FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKUYOb34rM4OM9NxWte_VEueuVgJkZf_E8Gdm0E3B_y6RB7EZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com>
 <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <4FC94FC1.4060703@brouhaha.com>

Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>    TIL311 displays? I pass =) These displays are expensive...

TIL311 displays are the *inexpensive* ones.  The correct displays for an 
Elf are the HP (now Avago) displays, and those are expensive.



From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Fri Jun  1 21:29:08 2012
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 19:29:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>


In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with cassette 
card on ebay.  See item number 160810171525.

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 21:36:34 2012
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 21:36:34 -0500
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20um1K+zbB824Octr4fPguS7=YhNP5NoP57sQGHsRHHGw@mail.gmail.com>

35k ? wow


On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 9:29 PM, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>wrote:

>
> In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with cassette
> card on ebay.  See item number 160810171525.
>
> --
> David Griffith
> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
>
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>


From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Jun  1 21:40:26 2012
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 21:40:26 -0500
Subject: some items I don't need
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1338570002.19499.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1338570002.19499.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4FC97D1A.4080100@pico-systems.com>

Well, digging through a bunch of stuff, i have found some items people
might have interest in.  I have :

A KA-11 backplane section, 3 pieces of 4 x 6 Unibus-style backplane.
I'm pretty sure the label reads KA-11, which I think it the backplane for
an 11/20 CPU.  There is one wire-wrap wire that got scraped when a screw
was removed, otherwise no damage to it.  the connector contacts
look clean, too.  Free for the shipping cost.

I have a complete KA-650 with cabinet.  It is pretty dirty.  But, years
ago, I did plug the CPU and memory into my KA-650 system, and
it loaded VMS.  I was using 4.7 at the time, and upgrading to the
KA-650 would have required upgrading and cracking the
security on VMS 5.1   Not sure what to ask for this system,
but I could list the board numbers if somebody wants it.
No hard drive, but there is a TK-50 in the cabinet.  I got quite a
stack of boards with it, but other than CPU and memory, I did not
test them.  Some of them probably have serious corrosion damage.
It must have come out of a chemical plant or something, it was like that
when I got it.

I have a KA-630 maintenance print set.  Free for the shipping.

I have a Lear Siegler ADM-36 maintenance manual, with schematics.
I used that print set to double the CPU speed on the ADM-36 that
I had.  (Got rid of the terminal a long time ago.)

Got a VT-240, worked last time I powered it up.  Also 2 LK-201AA
keyboards.  Make an offer.

Got several 9-slot Q-bus backplanes with fan and switching power
supply.  These were from the WELL (Whole Earth Lectronic Link)
service.  Not sure of the backplane part number, it is covered
by the cabinet.  Make offer.

Aviv Q-bus Storage Tek tape interface.  All the firmware is marked
R925, so that might be the model #.  Make offer.

2 Q-bus printer interface, M8027.  Make offer.

Unibus paddle, M9042.  Make offer.

MDB Q-bus (or is it Unibus?) MDB-LP11 (name kind of suggests
Unibus, but it is 4-wide.  Looks like it handles 2 printers.  Make
offer.

2 quad-wide extender boards.  2 dual-wide extender.  Make offer.

1 M9202 Unibus jumper module, with the folded-up cable between
the boards.  Make offer.

4 M9047 Qbus grant continuity card.

1 G7273 Unibus grant continuity card.

1 M9302 Unibus terminator.

1 Camintonn CM-DRV11-WA  Qbus DMA parallel interface.

1 DEC M7941, I think this is a DEC DRV-11, without the DMA.

1 M9400-YE, M9401 set with interconnecting cable, Qbus cabinet-cabinet
    extension.

1 Dilog DQ153 Q-bus mag tape control for buffered pertec interface.

1 DELQA Qbus ethernet interface, with cable and MAU connector.

1 CMD CQD-200/T  Qbus SCSI tape control.  Don't remember if this
one works or not.

1 TD Systems Viking Q/B, Qbus SCSI disk controller, I think.

1 M7546 TK-50 Qbus controller.

I still have more stuff, like the boards that came with the KA-650, I
will have to clean them up and inventory them.

Jon


From mc68010 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 22:13:52 2012
From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 20:13:52 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs20um1K+zbB824Octr4fPguS7=YhNP5NoP57sQGHsRHHGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <CAA3rs20um1K+zbB824Octr4fPguS7=YhNP5NoP57sQGHsRHHGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FC984F0.5080700@gmail.com>

Or you could buy this one for $180,000 .

http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2012/books-manuscripts-n08864#/r=/en/ecat.fhtml.N08864.html+r.m=/en/ecat.lot.N08864.html/57/

On 6/1/2012 7:36 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
> 35k ? wow
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 9:29 PM, David Griffith<dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>wrote:
>
>> In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with cassette
>> card on ebay.  See item number 160810171525.
>>
>> --
>> David Griffith
>> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
>>
>> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
>> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
>> A: Top-posting.
>> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>>



From curt at atarimuseum.com  Fri Jun  1 22:51:14 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 23:51:14 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com>

$500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo to 
someones house?!?!?

$35K starting bid too???

Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on whats 
included?   $35k is being a bit much, imho



Curt



David Griffith wrote:
>
> In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with 
> cassette card on ebay.  See item number 160810171525.
>


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Fri Jun  1 22:51:52 2012
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 23:51:52 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <CAA3rs20um1K+zbB824Octr4fPguS7=YhNP5NoP57sQGHsRHHGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FC984F0.5080700@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1AB032F341884D1790E29756ACCB410E@hd2600xt6a04f7>

As far as I know the Apple I is the most expensive collectable computer, 
whats next on the list?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "mc68010" <mc68010 at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay


> Or you could buy this one for $180,000 .
>



From curt at atarimuseum.com  Fri Jun  1 22:54:20 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 23:54:20 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FC984F0.5080700@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <CAA3rs20um1K+zbB824Octr4fPguS7=YhNP5NoP57sQGHsRHHGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FC984F0.5080700@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FC98E6C.9070709@atarimuseum.com>

Another overhyped, and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overpriced sotheby's 
auction... they tried to sell some old Atari art 6-7 years back, the 
stuff was yellowed, faded and damaged due to poor handling and storage, 
I think they were shooting for $120-$150k, the top bid was like $17k or 
so, in the end the seller who hauled the hundreds of pounds of stuff 
from CA to NY didn't sell, and then still have to pay all of the 
sotheby's fee's, what a screwed up deal.



mc68010 wrote:
> Or you could buy this one for $180,000 .
>
> http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2012/books-manuscripts-n08864#/r=/en/ecat.fhtml.N08864.html+r.m=/en/ecat.lot.N08864.html/57/ 
>
>
> On 6/1/2012 7:36 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
>> 35k ? wow
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 9:29 PM, David 
>> Griffith<dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>wrote:
>>
>>> In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with 
>>> cassette
>>> card on ebay.  See item number 160810171525.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> David Griffith
>>> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
>>>
>>> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
>>> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
>>> A: Top-posting.
>>> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>>>
>


From mc68010 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 23:01:00 2012
From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 21:01:00 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com>
Message-ID: <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>

On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
> $500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo to 
> someones house?!?!?
>
> $35K starting bid too???
>
> Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on 
> whats included?   $35k is being a bit much, imho

Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k last 
year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go for 
120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this week.  Too 
many people with more money than they know what to do with in this 
world.  $180k is nothing to them. It would change many people's whole life.


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 23:34:30 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 21:34:30 -0700
Subject: some items I don't need
In-Reply-To: <4FC97D1A.4080100@pico-systems.com>
References: <mailman.1.1338570002.19499.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <4FC97D1A.4080100@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKZqAoPPSe3YtJjrFDQ8oS5qMzV3edP6BC4yhzjDAdwuw@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 1, 2012 7:45 PM, "Jon Elson" <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>
> Well, digging through a bunch of stuff, i have found some items people
> might have interest in.  I have :
>

Are we to guess that this stuff is located in Kirkwood MO 63122?

Might be useful to know...

-Glen


From curt at atarimuseum.com  Fri Jun  1 23:48:27 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 00:48:27 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FC99B1B.4030706@atarimuseum.com>

I don't know, yeah maybe Zuckerberg will bid on it while he still has 
some cash left from the IPO before the stock tanks another $12 more and 
it ends up by the end of June on the penny stock listings....



mc68010 wrote:
> On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
>> $500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo 
>> to someones house?!?!?
>>
>> $35K starting bid too???
>>
>> Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on 
>> whats included?   $35k is being a bit much, imho
>
> Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k 
> last year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go 
> for 120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this 
> week.  Too many people with more money than they know what to do with 
> in this world.  $180k is nothing to them. It would change many 
> people's whole life.
>


From spectre at floodgap.com  Sat Jun  2 01:31:42 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 23:31:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at
 "Jun 1, 12 11:51:14 pm"
Message-ID: <201206020631.q526Vg7d14614696@floodgap.com>

> $500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo to 
> someones house?!?!?

No, no, silly, that was the Twentieth Anniversary Macintosh.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- If you cannot convince them, confuse them. -- Harry S Truman ---------------


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Jun  2 02:16:06 2012
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 00:16:06 -0700
Subject: Odd capacitor identification
Message-ID: <4FC9BDB6.2070808@mail.msu.edu>

A couple of months ago I picked up a Terak, in pieces.  I'm now working 
on putting it back together as well as I can; the power supply has three 
large capacitors that are visibly leaky (i.e. there's crud coming out 
the ends) so I would like to replace them before I go any further.

Thing is, I've never run into a capacitor quite like this -- it's a 
radial capacitor, about 1" in diameter, and about 4" long, but there are 
pairs of terminals on both ends (i.e. a "+" and "-" terminal on both ends).

It's marked as follows:

MALLORY
1300 MF 75V 105C
QLA132U075N3L
235-7838

I considered that this might actually contain two capacitors in one can 
(as I've seen in some old radios & TVs I've worked on), but the markings 
on the can don't seem to indicate that this is the case, and further it 
looks like (based on probing with my DVM) the power supply board is 
wired such that the "+" on one side is the same circuit as the "+" on 
the other.  (I don't have a schematic to confirm this, and I haven't yet 
pulled the whole power supply PCB out to validate this.)  Additionally, 
after removing the capacitor from the circuit, there's continuity (w/ no 
apparent resistance) between the "+" terminals on either end of the 
capacitor.  So it -looks- like this is just a single 1300uF capacitor, 
but I'm curious as to why there are terminals at both ends...

Any thoughts?

Thanks as always,
Josh



From lists at loomcom.com  Sat Jun  2 02:57:16 2012
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 00:57:16 -0700
Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual
Message-ID: <E3F54451-C8DD-48E2-9C65-EA9DF2273F4B@loomcom.com>


I've suddenly found myself desperately in need of the following manual. It used to be available at Wilber Williams' Computer Museum web site, but of course that site has shut down and I don't know of any mirrors :(

It was located here:

http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-H740A-A-D%20H740D%20Power%20Supply%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf

DEC-11-H740A-A-D H740D Power Supply Maintenance Manual

Thanks for any help!

-Seth


From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 04:17:11 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 11:17:11 +0200
Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <E3F54451-C8DD-48E2-9C65-EA9DF2273F4B@loomcom.com>
References: <E3F54451-C8DD-48E2-9C65-EA9DF2273F4B@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <CACStewYiN4ddXy-+=OO24V5ve1e3-Xa5RmjqHVyHtEFJPTptEA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Seth Morabito <lists at loomcom.com> wrote:
> I've suddenly found myself desperately in need of the following manual. It used to be available at Wilber Williams' Computer Museum web site, but of course that site has shut down and I don't know of any mirrors :(
>
> It was located here:
>
> http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-H740A-A-D%20H740D%20Power%20Supply%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf
>
I see that a lot of stuff at the former University of Queenland's
Computer Museum of I.T. repository was rather interesting. I second
this request but then for all of the contents of said repo ;) I see
some 'RSX11M+' over at the vintage-computer.com site has at least
somewhat of a mirror. Could be a point of entry there?

re,

Sander

-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From pye at mactec.com.au  Sat Jun  2 04:26:38 2012
From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 19:26:38 +1000
Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <E3F54451-C8DD-48E2-9C65-EA9DF2273F4B@loomcom.com>
References: <E3F54451-C8DD-48E2-9C65-EA9DF2273F4B@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <B9E67F33-A54F-475C-800A-3087C4AB9F9E@mactec.com.au>

If you put that address into the wayback machine:  http://web.archive.org   I think you'll get the document that you require (and the rest of the old site if you wish)..

Chris...


On 02/06/2012, at 5:57 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:

> 
> I've suddenly found myself desperately in need of the following manual. It used to be available at Wilber Williams' Computer Museum web site, but of course that site has shut down and I don't know of any mirrors :(
> 
> It was located here:
> 
> http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-H740A-A-D%20H740D%20Power%20Supply%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf
> 
> DEC-11-H740A-A-D H740D Power Supply Maintenance Manual
> 
> Thanks for any help!
> 
> -Seth




From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 04:33:06 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 11:33:06 +0200
Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <B9E67F33-A54F-475C-800A-3087C4AB9F9E@mactec.com.au>
References: <E3F54451-C8DD-48E2-9C65-EA9DF2273F4B@loomcom.com>
 <B9E67F33-A54F-475C-800A-3087C4AB9F9E@mactec.com.au>
Message-ID: <CACStewY7FM9Bo2zEpDQAKyDQrs6So2sFCZW2eiqWYzLcH-od3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Chris Pye <pye at mactec.com.au> wrote:
> If you put that address into the wayback machine: ?http://web.archive.org ? I think you'll get the document that you require (and the rest of the old site if you wish)..
>
> Chris...

Good call!

That will indeed help the OP. In the meantime I've responded to the
post on vintage-computer to try and help out. I've got some storage
left online 24/7 for him to post the mirror to.

re,

Sander

-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Jun  2 04:50:22 2012
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 11:50:22 +0200
Subject: Odd capacitor identification
In-Reply-To: <4FC9BDB6.2070808@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4FC9BDB6.2070808@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <20120602095022.GB84316@beast.freibergnet.de>

Josh Dersch wrote:

> A couple of months ago I picked up a Terak, in pieces.  I'm now working 
> on putting it back together as well as I can; the power supply has three 
> large capacitors that are visibly leaky (i.e. there's crud coming out 
> the ends) so I would like to replace them before I go any further.
> 
> Thing is, I've never run into a capacitor quite like this -- it's a 
> radial capacitor, about 1" in diameter, and about 4" long, but there are 
> pairs of terminals on both ends (i.e. a "+" and "-" terminal on both ends).
> 
> It's marked as follows:
> 
> MALLORY
> 1300 MF 75V 105C
> QLA132U075N3L
> 235-7838
> 
> I considered that this might actually contain two capacitors in one can 
> (as I've seen in some old radios & TVs I've worked on), but the markings 
> on the can don't seem to indicate that this is the case, and further it 
> looks like (based on probing with my DVM) the power supply board is 
> wired such that the "+" on one side is the same circuit as the "+" on 
> the other.  (I don't have a schematic to confirm this, and I haven't yet 
> pulled the whole power supply PCB out to validate this.)  Additionally, 
> after removing the capacitor from the circuit, there's continuity (w/ no 
> apparent resistance) between the "+" terminals on either end of the 
> capacitor.  So it -looks- like this is just a single 1300uF capacitor, 
> but I'm curious as to why there are terminals at both ends...
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Thanks as always,
> Josh

To lower the terminal impedance aka ESR?
Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Jun  2 05:28:38 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 03:28:38 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <1AB032F341884D1790E29756ACCB410E@hd2600xt6a04f7>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <CAA3rs20um1K+zbB824Octr4fPguS7=YhNP5NoP57sQGHsRHHGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FC984F0.5080700@gmail.com>
 <1AB032F341884D1790E29756ACCB410E@hd2600xt6a04f7>
Message-ID: <4FC9EAD6.1090609@brouhaha.com>

TeoZ wrote:
> As far as I know the Apple I is the most expensive collectable 
> computer, whats next on the list?

There are a lot of computers that might sell for more, if they were 
offered for sale.  A privately-funded museum recently acquired an IBM 
360/40 and a DEC KI10.  While as far as I know the terms of the sales 
are not public, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they sold for 
well over the going price of an Apple I.



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Jun  2 08:19:28 2012
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 09:19:28 -0400
Subject: *uckerberg - Re: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FC99B1B.4030706@atarimuseum.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
 <4FC99B1B.4030706@atarimuseum.com>
Message-ID: <4FCA12E0.90902@telegraphics.com.au>

On 02/06/12 12:48 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
> I don't know, yeah maybe Zuckerberg will bid on it while he still has
> some cash left from the IPO before the stock tanks another $12 more and
> it ends up by the end of June on the penny stock listings....
>
>

The size of his holding is such that even as a penny stock he'd be worth 
millions.

--Toby


>
> mc68010 wrote:
>> On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
>>> $500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo
>>> to someones house?!?!?
>>>
>>> $35K starting bid too???
>>>
>>> Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on
>>> whats included? $35k is being a bit much, imho
>>
>> Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k
>> last year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go
>> for 120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this week.
>> Too many people with more money than they know what to do with in this
>> world. $180k is nothing to them. It would change many people's whole
>> life.
>>
>



From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Sat Jun  2 09:05:37 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 07:05:37 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com>, <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>


> From: mc68010 at gmail.com
> 
> On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
> > $500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo to 
> > someones house?!?!?
> >
> > $35K starting bid too???
> >
> > Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on 
> > whats included? $35k is being a bit much, imho
> 
> Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k last 
> year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go for 
> 120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this week. Too 
> many people with more money than they know what to do with in this 
> world. $180k is nothing to them. It would change many people's whole life.

Hi
 That one at Sotheby's was complete with quite a bit of manuals and paperwork.
Anything with less is going to be quite a bit less in value. I'd be surprised
to see, a board only, go for much over $100K.
I understand to one at Sotheby now has some of the paper work.
Dwight
  		 	   		  

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 09:25:07 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 10:25:07 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
 <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>

> ?That one at Sotheby's was complete with quite a bit of manuals and paperwork.
> Anything with less is going to be quite a bit less in value. I'd be surprised
> to see, a board only, go for much over $100K.
> I understand to one at Sotheby now has some of the paper work.

More importantly, the one at Sotheby's has provenance from Sotheby's.

--
Will



From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Jun  2 10:29:45 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 08:29:45 -0700
Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <CACStewYiN4ddXy-+=OO24V5ve1e3-Xa5RmjqHVyHtEFJPTptEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E3F54451-C8DD-48E2-9C65-EA9DF2273F4B@loomcom.com>
 <CACStewYiN4ddXy-+=OO24V5ve1e3-Xa5RmjqHVyHtEFJPTptEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCA3169.6010809@bitsavers.org>

On 6/2/12 2:17 AM, Sander Reiche wrote:

> I see that a lot of stuff at the former University of Queenland's
> Computer Museum of I.T. repository was rather interesting. I second
> this request but then for all of the contents of said repo

It's copying now to bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au




From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat Jun  2 13:09:07 2012
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 13:09:07 -0500
Subject: inventory of DEC items
Message-ID: <4FCA56C3.5010506@pico-systems.com>

OK, I made an inventory of all the boards.  Some of these go with
the BA23 cabinet, but I could mix and match for whoever buys
the box.  It has a TK50 and RD54-A disk drive in it.

The board list I have is :
M7169      QDSS
M7620 BA      KA650
M7621AF       memory
M7621AV      memory
M7168            memory - have 2 boards
M3106              quad serial mux
M7555              RQDX3
M8049              DRV11-J  with 1 cable
M7555            Disk control (MFM??)
M7546            TK50 controller
M7516YM       DELQA         - I have a total of 2 of these, listed the 
other last night
M8634             IEQ11  - GPIB interface
Of the above modules, the external connector panels are incredibly corroded,
but the boards actually are quite clean.
2 x  function selector panel module for KA630/KA650 battery, serial port
baud rate selector, etc.

M7606EF         KA630 CPU
M7607              MS630A
M8029              RX02 controller
M7264              LSI-11
M7950              DRV11-B
M7942              no memory chips in sockets
Also, dec-related parts :
Emulex    QD211
Dilog        DQ686
Dilog        DQ696-15    (have 2 units)
Andromeda      DC11   (floppy + MFM disk interface for Qbus)
Emulex    CS04
M??         Qbus memory MO XI/PL LSI-11
M ??        Qbus memory MSC4601
??            BTA1000  Q-bus terminator
MDB      MLSI-DLV-11
Heath      H11-2         parallel I/O

I am located in St. Louis, MO

Jon




From lists at loomcom.com  Sat Jun  2 13:21:07 2012
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 11:21:07 -0700
Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <B9E67F33-A54F-475C-800A-3087C4AB9F9E@mactec.com.au>
References: <E3F54451-C8DD-48E2-9C65-EA9DF2273F4B@loomcom.com>
 <B9E67F33-A54F-475C-800A-3087C4AB9F9E@mactec.com.au>
Message-ID: <0D53D386-D47B-449A-9C6C-B1B632DFBF71@loomcom.com>


On Jun 2, 2012, at 2:26 AM, Chris Pye wrote:

> If you put that address into the wayback machine:  http://web.archive.org   I think you'll get the document that you require (and the rest of the old site if you wish)..
> 
> Chris?

Wow, I really should have thought of that. It's normally something that I try with missing websites, I don't know why I didn't this time. Thank you!

-Seth


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Jun  2 13:27:11 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 19:27:11 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Odd capacitor identification
In-Reply-To: <4FC9BDB6.2070808@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jun 2,
 12 00:16:06 am
Message-ID: <m1Sat2j-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

> 
> A couple of months ago I picked up a Terak, in pieces.  I'm now working 
> on putting it back together as well as I can; the power supply has three 
> large capacitors that are visibly leaky (i.e. there's crud coming out 
> the ends) so I would like to replace them before I go any further.
> 
> Thing is, I've never run into a capacitor quite like this -- it's a 
> radial capacitor, about 1" in diameter, and about 4" long, but there are 
> pairs of terminals on both ends (i.e. a "+" and "-" terminal on both ends).
> 
> It's marked as follows:
> 
> MALLORY
> 1300 MF 75V 105C
> QLA132U075N3L
> 235-7838
> 
> I considered that this might actually contain two capacitors in one can 
> (as I've seen in some old radios & TVs I've worked on), but the markings 
> on the can don't seem to indicate that this is the case, and further it 
> looks like (based on probing with my DVM) the power supply board is 
> wired such that the "+" on one side is the same circuit as the "+" on 
> the other.  (I don't have a schematic to confirm this, and I haven't yet 
> pulled the whole power supply PCB out to validate this.)  Additionally, 
> after removing the capacitor from the circuit, there's continuity (w/ no 
> apparent resistance) between the "+" terminals on either end of the 
> capacitor.  So it -looks- like this is just a single 1300uF capacitor, 
> but I'm curious as to why there are terminals at both ends...

There are 2 reasons I can quickly think of for having 2 terminals for 
each side of the capacitor.

Firslty, it could result lower inductace in the circuit, or perhaps no 
_common_ inductance between 2 circuits (charge and discharge ;-)) 
connected to the capacitor. 

Secondly, it could be a safety feature  If the 2 equivalent termianls are 
conencted to differnet points in the cirucit, then if either wire becmes 
disconencted, it would open the entire circuit, whereas if the 2 wires 
were conencted as a 'T' to one terminal, then if the termianl fiailed the 
2 wires might still be conencvted to each other but not to the capacitor.

I think the first is more likely here. 

-tony


From wheagy at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 14:13:57 2012
From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:13:57 -0400
Subject: Commodore Datasette belt
Message-ID: <CAAB_y5x1n-EuLr1CctXiU+jHsB6Zm_7HoC8z6ewTt2RXu32b3A@mail.gmail.com>

I was able to get a pretty good measurement on this belt (thanks for the
tips) and found one that I believe to be compatible at MCM for under $1.
 If anyone is interested, the part is...

SQUARE BELT 10.5X.046/266.70MMX84.89X1.17 Square Belts, I.C.: 10.5,
Thickness: 0.046

I used the string method that was suggest and got a length of 27cm and a
digital caliper to measure the width and it was 1.15mm.  So I think the
above should work.

Thanks.

Win


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun  2 14:19:50 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 12:19:50 -0700
Subject: Odd capacitor identification
In-Reply-To: <m1Sat2j-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
References: <4FC9BDB6.2070808@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jun 2,
 12 00:16:06 am, <m1Sat2j-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FCA04E6.25711.FD275F@cclist.sydex.com>

On 2 Jun 2012 at 19:27, Tony Duell wrote:

> Firslty, it could result lower inductace in the circuit, or perhaps no
> _common_ inductance between 2 circuits (charge and discharge ;-))
> connected to the capacitor. 

I've seen these also--and they were manufactured right up through the 
90s that I know of.  Perhaps browsing one of the big manufacturers' 
catalogs (NCC, for example) would yeild more information.

Another possibility is that it makes PCB layout simpler, but I think 
that's unlikely.

I've always been puzzled as to whether these should be called axial 
or radial leads.

--Chuck





From jws at jwsss.com  Sat Jun  2 17:33:08 2012
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 15:33:08 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
 <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>
 <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>

The last one sold by this vendor is here:

Apple 1 - The ORIGINAL Apple Computer (#160413355114)    US $42,766.00 
Buyer: Member id randomz3     Mar-30-10 20:16

He also is selling an Imsai purported to be one used early on for 
internal work free of timeshare work if you look at the other auctions.  
You can get his whole history from his 45 feedback score link, seems to 
have sold a lot of artifacts, and some junk.

I Don't know what Sotheby's brings to the table as far as their 
provenance, they know 200 million paintings, but most of the time when I 
hear their "experts" on things like  this (other than maybe specifically 
the Apple 1 now) they sound clueless.

This one comes with a signed note from Wozniak saying it is an Apple 1, 
who do you want to certify it?  A schmuck at Sotheby's or Steve?

For most items computer if they were worth serious money and really 
needed such I'd far rather post here and invite your opinion than an 
auction houses.  They only have credibility based on their track record, 
and overpricing and getting $100k for one Apple 1 isn't a real track record.

Jim

On 6/2/2012 7:25 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
>>   That one at Sotheby's was complete with quite a bit of manuals and paperwork.
>> Anything with less is going to be quite a bit less in value. I'd be surprised
>> to see, a board only, go for much over $100K.
>> I understand to one at Sotheby now has some of the paper work.
> More importantly, the one at Sotheby's has provenance from Sotheby's.
>
> --
> Will
>
>


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun  2 17:58:11 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 15:58:11 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <4FCA3813.18643.1C50B7E@cclist.sydex.com>

On 2 Jun 2012 at 15:33, jim s wrote:

> For most items computer if they were worth serious money and really
> needed such I'd far rather post here and invite your opinion than an
> auction houses.  They only have credibility based on their track
> record, and overpricing and getting $100k for one Apple 1 isn't a real
> track record.

As people-with-too-much-money have pretty much over-inflated the art 
world, I think some are looking to diversify.  Still, compared to an 
Edvard Munch painting, $35K is small potatoes.

However, not completely outside the realm of attraction for some 
counterfeiters to work up.  How would one know?  Carbon-14 date the 
solder mask?

--Chuck



From legalize at xmission.com  Sat Jun  2 18:27:53 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 17:27:53 -0600
Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <E3F54451-C8DD-48E2-9C65-EA9DF2273F4B@loomcom.com>
References: <E3F54451-C8DD-48E2-9C65-EA9DF2273F4B@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <E1Saxjd-0007HD-Ss@shell.xmission.com>


In article <E3F54451-C8DD-48E2-9C65-EA9DF2273F4B at loomcom.com>,
    Seth Morabito <lists at loomcom.com> writes:

> I've suddenly found myself desperately in need of the following manual. It
> used to be available at Wilber Williams' Computer Museum web site, but of
> course that site has shut down and I don't know of any mirrors :(
> 
> It was located here:
> 
> http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-H740A-A-D%20H740D%20Power%
> 20Supply%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf
> 
> DEC-11-H740A-A-D H740D Power Supply Maintenance Manual

I'm working with another list member to get this material hosted on
manx.classiccmp.org.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Sat Jun  2 18:31:23 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 17:31:23 -0600
Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <4FCA3169.6010809@bitsavers.org>
References: <E3F54451-C8DD-48E2-9C65-EA9DF2273F4B@loomcom.com>
 <CACStewYiN4ddXy-+=OO24V5ve1e3-Xa5RmjqHVyHtEFJPTptEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCA3169.6010809@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <E1Saxn1-0007Z5-JC@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FCA3169.6010809 at bitsavers.org>,
    Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> writes:

> On 6/2/12 2:17 AM, Sander Reiche wrote:
> 
> > I see that a lot of stuff at the former University of Queenland's
> > Computer Museum of I.T. repository was rather interesting. I second
> > this request but then for all of the contents of said repo
> 
> It's copying now to bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au

OK, when I get the copy I'm expecting, I'll see if it contains
anything not located there.

I'll get manx's URL for the site updated.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Sat Jun  2 18:56:55 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 17:56:55 -0600
Subject: PDF Needed: DEC H740D Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <E1Saxn1-0007Z5-JC@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E3F54451-C8DD-48E2-9C65-EA9DF2273F4B@loomcom.com>
 <CACStewYiN4ddXy-+=OO24V5ve1e3-Xa5RmjqHVyHtEFJPTptEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCA3169.6010809@bitsavers.org> <E1Saxn1-0007Z5-JC@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <E1SayBj-0000lr-5a@shell.xmission.com>


In article <E1Saxn1-0007Z5-JC at shell.xmission.com>,
    Richard <legalize at xmission.com> writes:

> I'll get manx's URL for the site updated.

<http://manx.codeplex.com/workitem/28> in case anyone wants to track it.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Sat Jun  2 20:02:18 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 18:02:18 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com>
 <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>, <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>,
 <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W24ECDBC8559AE20A018515A30E0@phx.gbl>



 

> Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 15:33:08 -0700
> From: jws at jwsss.com
> To: 
> Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay
> 
> The last one sold by this vendor is here:
> 
> Apple 1 - The ORIGINAL Apple Computer (#160413355114) US $42,766.00 
> Buyer: Member id randomz3 Mar-30-10 20:16
> 
> He also is selling an Imsai purported to be one used early on for 
> internal work free of timeshare work if you look at the other auctions. 
> You can get his whole history from his 45 feedback score link, seems to 
> have sold a lot of artifacts, and some junk.
> 
---snip---
 
The IMSAI has an interesting artical attached to the sale
on ebay that is worth reading. I consider the story
to be worth more that some IMSAI. Of course, it includes
some floppies but makes no claims as to what they contain.
If it contained some of the original works at Apply, they
may have more value than the IMSAI as well.
Dwight
  		 	   		  

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 20:13:16 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 21:13:16 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
 <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>
 <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dc7k51g7iJO8Jc9qFmEVNuu2d2zPM9A4Ttpe=g3y=spEQ@mail.gmail.com>

> I Don't know what Sotheby's brings to the table as far as their provenance,

Mainly, that the item passed through one of the big auction houses (in
this case, Sotheby's).

This carries a huge amount of weight.

--
Will


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 20:15:25 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 21:15:25 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
 <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>
 <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcT2n1RhbZbxKunarW088HD3924oJwtCn6oomBpp9GbTA@mail.gmail.com>

> This one comes with a signed note from Wozniak saying it is an Apple 1, who
> do you want to certify it? ?A schmuck at Sotheby's or Steve?

That schmuck from Sotheby's would likely go to Steve and have it
authenticated. That is what they are paid to do.

--
Will



From teoz at neo.rr.com  Sat Jun  2 20:58:13 2012
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 21:58:13 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
 <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>
 <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
 <CANij+dcT2n1RhbZbxKunarW088HD3924oJwtCn6oomBpp9GbTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay


>> This one comes with a signed note from Wozniak saying it is an Apple 1, 
>> who
>> do you want to certify it? A schmuck at Sotheby's or Steve?
>
> That schmuck from Sotheby's would likely go to Steve and have it
> authenticated. That is what they are paid to do.
>
> --
> Will


The art world took ages to come up with ways to detect forgeries and many of 
those use high tech science not just somebody's visual "looks good" ok. And 
we still have forgeries going for millions of dollars and those do pass 
through the major auction houses.

Anybody can get a list of Apple I's lost to the world and make up another 
with a custom made circuit board, chips with the correct date code, some 
aging, and a good story. Its not worth cloning a C64 worth $20 but if Apple 
I's keep selling for $100K it will be worth the effort.






From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 21:16:26 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 22:16:26 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
 <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>
 <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
 <CANij+dcT2n1RhbZbxKunarW088HD3924oJwtCn6oomBpp9GbTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcMnJjG7_1PHB951kt8qtGq8AygfnSNo39-f6EPVSkaiA@mail.gmail.com>

> The art world took ages to come up with ways to detect forgeries and many of
> those use high tech science not just somebody's visual "looks good" ok. And
> we still have forgeries going for millions of dollars and those do pass
> through the major auction houses.

Yes, this happens, but very rarely. The auction houses are *always*
rejecting questionable items - forgeries, copies, and everything else.
It would not surprise me if Sotheby's rejects 99 out of 100 Picassos
as fakes or copies, even though original Picassos are actually pretty
common.

> Anybody can get a list of Apple I's lost to the world and make up another
> with a custom made circuit board, chips with the correct date code, some
> aging, and a good story. Its not worth cloning a C64 worth $20 but if Apple
> I's keep selling for $100K it will be worth the effort.

Forging an Apple 1 would certainly be possible, but quite difficult.
All it takes is one minor mistake.

--
Will


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Sat Jun  2 21:49:19 2012
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 22:49:19 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
 <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>
 <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
 <CANij+dcT2n1RhbZbxKunarW088HD3924oJwtCn6oomBpp9GbTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7>
 <CANij+dcMnJjG7_1PHB951kt8qtGq8AygfnSNo39-f6EPVSkaiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay


>
> Forging an Apple 1 would certainly be possible, but quite difficult.
> All it takes is one minor mistake.
>
> --
> Will

There are pictures, part lists, etc out there for what are basically simple 
make it in your garage type stuff. The early software collectors (old games) 
have issues with people making fakes for items that sell for only hundreds 
of dollars. I can't think of ANY hobby where fakes didn't come out when 
items started to be worth some money (stamps, coins, baseball cards, etc). 



From jws at jwsss.com  Sat Jun  2 22:29:00 2012
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 20:29:00 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcT2n1RhbZbxKunarW088HD3924oJwtCn6oomBpp9GbTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
 <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>
 <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
 <CANij+dcT2n1RhbZbxKunarW088HD3924oJwtCn6oomBpp9GbTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCAD9FC.1020102@jwsss.com>

I think this guy did as good a job and doesn't owe the amount that 
Sotheby's charges.  In the computer area they don't have experts I'd pay 
their buyer's premium to have.  My point is I'd rather have someone 
hunted down either here or thru contacts here explaining the provenance 
than them.

If they do it and say they did I just don't see why that makes it any 
better.  If they handled the volume of collectable computers to have 
people on staff who are as knowledgeable as this group that would be one 
thing, but there is not.

i'd go to one of the computer museum people here, for instance or a 
serious collector such as you and line up the experts and document it.

If Sotheby's starts to demonstrate they can regularly deliver the market 
to support $100k apple 1's then they deserve the business.  but a guy 
like the one with the current listing is doing a pretty good job on his 
own and Ebay is finding the market.  It would be interesting to see if 
he had any dealings with the auction houses before doing either the 
previous one or this one.  I'll send a question to see if they answer.

Jim

On 6/2/2012 6:15 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
>> This one comes with a signed note from Wozniak saying it is an Apple 1, who
>> do you want to certify it?  A schmuck at Sotheby's or Steve?
> That schmuck from Sotheby's would likely go to Steve and have it
> authenticated. That is what they are paid to do.
>
> --
> Will
>
>


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 22:36:07 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 23:36:07 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
 <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>
 <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
 <CANij+dcT2n1RhbZbxKunarW088HD3924oJwtCn6oomBpp9GbTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7>
 <CANij+dcMnJjG7_1PHB951kt8qtGq8AygfnSNo39-f6EPVSkaiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddgicGcp6teDMRNo48W7ncOUvGO_hPaEmns4Qk=GmtkOA@mail.gmail.com>

> There are pictures, part lists, etc out there for what are basically simple
> make it in your garage type stuff.

Please realize that when you are dealing with Apple 1 "level"
artifacts, the fakes have to be *perfect*. Perfect enough to undergo
scrutiny under a series of lab grade tests and expert eyeballs.

--
Will


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun  2 22:48:41 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 20:48:41 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FCAD9FC.1020102@jwsss.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <CANij+dcT2n1RhbZbxKunarW088HD3924oJwtCn6oomBpp9GbTA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FCAD9FC.1020102@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <4FCA7C29.17993.2CF0333@cclist.sydex.com>

It could be that Sotheby's has gotten bitten by the old computer bug. 
They called a couple of weeks ago asking for some quotes on floppy 
data recovery...

--Chuck




From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 22:51:11 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 23:51:11 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FCAD9FC.1020102@jwsss.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
 <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>
 <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
 <CANij+dcT2n1RhbZbxKunarW088HD3924oJwtCn6oomBpp9GbTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCAD9FC.1020102@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddwgy3K_-tFOs3ADwTM-36kZpkw_eRsYTP3sd-EVebn6w@mail.gmail.com>

> I think this guy did as good a job and doesn't owe the amount that Sotheby's
> charges. ?In the computer area they don't have experts I'd pay their buyer's
> premium to have.

But they do have experts in other areas of antique technology, such as
scientific instruments, guns, and clocks - the basic ideas of the
history are the same. And these experts are very well aware that they
should seek and find experts if they can not find ones in house.

>?My point is I'd rather have someone hunted down either
> here or thru contacts here explaining the provenance than them.

Sure, you would rather do it that way, but the fact remains that there
is a gulf of difference between provenance an individual can establish
and provenance a big auction house establishes.

> If they do it and say they did I just don't see why that makes it any
> better. ?If they handled the volume of collectable computers to have people
> on staff who are as knowledgeable as this group that would be one thing, but
> there is not.

This mostly does not matter. The people with the money put a lot of
weight on the value of big auction house provenance. That provenance
is as good as gold.

> i'd go to one of the computer museum people here, for instance or a serious
> collector such as you and line up the experts and document it.

And this is what the people at the auction houses do - they realize
that they are not experts of everything, an will reach out to get the
information they need. Even the people at Antiques Roadshow do this.

> If Sotheby's starts to demonstrate they can regularly deliver the market to
> support $100k apple 1's then they deserve the business. ?but a guy like the
> one with the current listing is doing a pretty good job on his own and Ebay
> is finding the market.

I do not deny this. I wish him the best of luck.

--
Will



From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sun Jun  3 01:51:38 2012
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 23:51:38 -0700
Subject: Odd capacitor identification
In-Reply-To: <4FCA04E6.25711.FD275F@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FC9BDB6.2070808@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jun 2,
 12 00:16:06 am,
 <m1Sat2j-000J4ZC@p850ug1> <4FCA04E6.25711.FD275F@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FCB097A.8070209@mail.msu.edu>

On 6/2/2012 12:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 2 Jun 2012 at 19:27, Tony Duell wrote:
>
>> Firslty, it could result lower inductace in the circuit, or perhaps no
>> _common_ inductance between 2 circuits (charge and discharge ;-))
>> connected to the capacitor.
> I've seen these also--and they were manufactured right up through the
> 90s that I know of.  Perhaps browsing one of the big manufacturers'
> catalogs (NCC, for example) would yeild more information.
>
> Another possibility is that it makes PCB layout simpler, but I think
> that's unlikely.
>
> I've always been puzzled as to whether these should be called axial
> or radial leads.
>
> --Chuck
>

Thanks for all the suggestions.  I've pulled the PCB out and the 
positive terminals at both ends of each of the three capacitors are 
directly connected to one another by a trace on the underside of the 
PCB.  Given this, is there any reason I shouldn't replace these with a 
more conventional 1300uF 75V electrolytic?

Thanks,
Josh


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Sun Jun  3 08:42:47 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 06:42:47 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com>
 <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>, <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>,
 <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>,
 <CANij+dcT2n1RhbZbxKunarW088HD3924oJwtCn6oomBpp9GbTA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W58FBF7050D9772852F23DEA30E0@phx.gbl>



 

> From: teoz at neo.rr.com
---snip---
> 
> Anybody can get a list of Apple I's lost to the world and make up another 
> with a custom made circuit board, chips with the correct date code, some 
> aging, and a good story. Its not worth cloning a C64 worth $20 but if Apple 
> I's keep selling for $100K it will be worth the effort.

One of the problems is ebay. A person could use photos of a real
Apple I and sneek in a Replica I in its place.
Many buyers wouldn't realize the switch until they'd had the unit
for a few days. By that time, the seller could be long gone.
 A couple years back, one of the ebay sleezes tried to pass
what he knew was a Replica I off as a real Apple I. He knew this
because he'd scrapped the words Replica I off the board himself.
He'd bought the board about a month earlier, under a different
name. What he didn't realize was that he'd tried to sell his car
under both names and there was the same picture.
He had a number of stories as to how he came on the board.
In one case, he claimed the it was an estate sale. Then he
claimed he'd got it from his brother.
 I'd written him several notes explaining to him that fraud
over $10 was probably prison time in his state. He later toned
down his sale and said that it had been identified by others that
it was not an original but it may be a replica. Still, someone payed several
thousand dollars for it but I most likely saved his ass.
 I doubt he'd thank me though.
Dwight
  		 	   		  

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Jun  3 09:25:50 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 07:25:50 -0700
Subject: Odd capacitor identification
In-Reply-To: <4FCB097A.8070209@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4FC9BDB6.2070808@mail.msu.edu>,
 <4FCA04E6.25711.FD275F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FCB097A.8070209@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <4FCB117E.7344.15B83D@cclist.sydex.com>

On 2 Jun 2012 at 23:51, Josh Dersch wrote:


> Thanks for all the suggestions.  I've pulled the PCB out and the
> positive terminals at both ends of each of the three capacitors are
> directly connected to one another by a trace on the underside of the
> PCB.  Given this, is there any reason I shouldn't replace these with a
> more conventional 1300uF 75V electrolytic?

I think that should work just fine.

--Chuck



From pdp11 at btconnect.com  Fri Jun  1 05:43:14 2012
From: pdp11 at btconnect.com (Dougal)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 11:43:14 +0100
Subject: Dec industrial I/O cards (QBus)
Message-ID: <201206011043.HQC96177@c2beaomr10.btconnect.com>

Good Morning,

 

We are in the market for IDV11-A, (M5026) and IDV11-C, (M8005). We note that
you previously had these units in stock.

Question: Do you still have similar units? 

Subsequent Question: Can you source these cards.

Final Question: How much?

 

We look forward to hearing from you.

 

Regards

 

Doug Mackay

Digital Systems and Service Ltd

Tel: +44 1536 460724

Mob: +44 7798 927 090



From rob_j37 at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  1 15:12:25 2012
From: rob_j37 at hotmail.com (RobJ)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 21:12:25 +0100
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
Message-ID: <SNT137-ds1067AA7387C08EAD5832D281080@phx.gbl>

Is there a reference somewhere that tells me exactly the spec of various DEC
cables?

For example I think I need a BC13B (connects VCB02 to monitor, keyboard and
mouse), but I have a BC19S which *seems* identical. All I can find are
resellers that list part numbers, one or two name the cables, but don't give
the technical information that gives me any idea if these two are
interchangeable or not.

Thanks

Rob


From jimpdavis at gorge.net  Fri Jun  1 21:56:02 2012
From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 19:56:02 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs20um1K+zbB824Octr4fPguS7=YhNP5NoP57sQGHsRHHGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <CAA3rs20um1K+zbB824Octr4fPguS7=YhNP5NoP57sQGHsRHHGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FC980C2.4030209@gorge.net>

I was asked by Pat Terrell to evaluate an apple 1 at the Byte shop in 
Portland back in 1976. I told him I couldn't see anyone
that knew anything about micros buying an overpriced, single board toy 
when S100 machines were so superior.
I wish I had taken it in trade for the Basic programming class I 
instructed. Doh!


Adrian Stoness wrote:
> 35k ? wow
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 9:29 PM, David Griffith<dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>wrote:
>
>    
>> In case anyone's interested, someone just listed an Apple I with cassette
>> card on ebay.  See item number 160810171525.
>>
>> --
>> David Griffith
>> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
>>
>> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
>> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
>> A: Top-posting.
>> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
>>
>>      
>    



From jim.p.davis at gmail.com  Sat Jun  2 00:25:38 2012
From: jim.p.davis at gmail.com (Jim Davis)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 22:25:38 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FC99B1B.4030706@atarimuseum.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
 <4FC99B1B.4030706@atarimuseum.com>
Message-ID: <CAPLFA2F5Sx-uNArjWwz7pTvQZDjZwpmoiwBxjNJ3+cOWRS0G3A@mail.gmail.com>

I was asked by Pat Terrell to evaluate an apple 1 at the Byte shop in
Portland back in 1976. I told him I couldn't see anyone that knew
anything about micros buying an overpriced, single board toy when S100
machines were so superior.

Later, A long haired mountain-man Paul Lutus showed up at the Byte
shop in Beaverton trying to sell Paul Terrell on the Apple 2 he
carried in a backpack. He demonstrated his 3D wireframe drawing
package without much impression on Pat. Byte shop decided to not carry
apple.


On 6/1/12, Curt @ Atari Museum <curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote:
> I don't know, yeah maybe Zuckerberg will bid on it while he still has
> some cash left from the IPO before the stock tanks another $12 more and
> it ends up by the end of June on the penny stock listings....
>
>
>
> mc68010 wrote:
>> On 6/1/2012 8:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
>>> $500 shipping, is the seller going to personally drive it in a limo
>>> to someones house?!?!?
>>>
>>> $35K starting bid too???
>>>
>>> Don't the A-1's generally sell for $15k to maybe $25k depending on
>>> whats included?   $35k is being a bit much, imho
>>
>> Think those days are over since that one sold at auction for $180k
>> last year. Now Sotheby's has another up. They are saying it will go
>> for 120k-180k and it probably will. It is all over the news this
>> week.  Too many people with more money than they know what to do with
>> in this world.  $180k is nothing to them. It would change many
>> people's whole life.
>>
>


From dave_rowland at btinternet.com  Sat Jun  2 06:16:26 2012
From: dave_rowland at btinternet.com (Dave Rowland)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 12:16:26 +0100
Subject: Xerox diablo 3000
In-Reply-To: <4FC94FC1.4060703@brouhaha.com>
References: <20120530164644.GV16485@ns1.bonedaddy.net>
 <CAALmim=GsXn2aRLstGEz8+T2G7d__0jNEsvhigcP7Jj8us02FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKUYOb34rM4OM9NxWte_VEueuVgJkZf_E8Gdm0E3B_y6RB7EZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2ea101cd3ef9$f5c8aa80$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC84D7D.2040503@neurotica.com>
 <064c01cd3fd9$4ba1cb00$6500a8c0@tababook> <4FC94FC1.4060703@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <a1d32fb1-9a4f-4ae9-abac-0e949c8e9ce6@email.android.com>



At our museum we have just been donated a couple of Xerox Diablo 3000 computers. Does anyone have schematics and/or service manuals . We have media but nothing else. Thanks

Dave

-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.


From jonas at otter.se  Sat Jun  2 15:44:29 2012
From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter)
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2012 22:44:29 +0200
Subject: Philips P800 family minis
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1338656403.38076.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1338656403.38076.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4FCA7B2D.1010805@otter.se>

On Fri, 1 Jun 2012 21:53:54 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony 
Duell) wrote.
> And the wonderful instructions to run the supply off an isolating
> transformer, but if that's not possible to disconenct the maisn werth
> wire in the 'scope mains plug and take great care. Err, yes. Having a
> 'scope floating at mains voltage is not the sort of thing I want to do...
For a Philips computer, you would naturally use a Philips scope, they 
have double insulation and no mains earth ;-)

/Jonas


From legalize at xmission.com  Sun Jun  3 10:04:00 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 09:04:00 -0600
Subject: Gear for sale - Goldendale Wa.
In-Reply-To: <4FAADD7A.10303@gorge.net>
References: <4FAADD7A.10303@gorge.net>
Message-ID: <E1SbCLY-0003Vx-3z@shell.xmission.com>


Hi Jim,

Have you had a chance to take some pictures yet?

-- Richard

-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 10:05:34 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 08:05:34 -0700
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <SNT137-ds1067AA7387C08EAD5832D281080@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT137-ds1067AA7387C08EAD5832D281080@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKhw=O9At-=qBEapUP8OTNVEty8GY+mB+-qCyayHm7k1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 3, 2012 8:01 AM, "RobJ" <rob_j37 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Is there a reference somewhere that tells me exactly the spec of various
DEC
> cables?
>
> For example I think I need a BC13B (connects VCB02 to monitor, keyboard
and
> mouse), but I have a BC19S which *seems* identical.

I thought it was a BC18Z cable for the VCB02.  I think that's the cable I
use with mine.


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sun Jun  3 10:10:58 2012
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 11:10:58 -0400
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <SNT137-ds1067AA7387C08EAD5832D281080@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT137-ds1067AA7387C08EAD5832D281080@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4FCB7E82.8070404@telegraphics.com.au>

On 01/06/12 4:12 PM, RobJ wrote:
> Is there a reference somewhere that tells me exactly the spec of various DEC
> cables?
>
> For example I think I need a BC13B (connects VCB02 to monitor, keyboard and
> mouse), but I have a BC19S which *seems* identical. All I can find are
> resellers that list part numbers, one or two name the cables, but don't give
> the technical information that gives me any idea if these two are
> interchangeable or not.

Some info:

http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/467

--Toby

>
> Thanks
>
> Rob
>



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Jun  3 10:15:09 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:15:09 +0100
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <SNT137-ds1067AA7387C08EAD5832D281080@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT137-ds1067AA7387C08EAD5832D281080@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>

Please ignore the duplicate posting. I mistakenly sent the first version of
this from my Hotmail account and sometimes these pop up on the list after
several days.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of RobJ
> Sent: 01 June 2012 21:12
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> 
> Is there a reference somewhere that tells me exactly the spec of various
DEC
> cables?
> 
> For example I think I need a BC13B (connects VCB02 to monitor, keyboard
> and mouse), but I have a BC19S which *seems* identical. All I can find are
> resellers that list part numbers, one or two name the cables, but don't
give
> the technical information that gives me any idea if these two are
> interchangeable or not.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rob



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 11:11:04 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 09:11:04 -0700
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
References: <SNT137-ds1067AA7387C08EAD5832D281080@phx.gbl>
 <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJ6qA9=FAHpoCgQKsoBdC=Hy7oLNsGqBTJnt0cZE0r-Sg@mail.gmail.com>

This manual lists the VCB02 color cable as the BC18Z and the mono cable as
the BC18P.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/vcb02/AZ-GLGAB-MN_VCB02_Technical_Manual_Feb86.pdf


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun  3 11:25:21 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 09:25:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
 <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>
 <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
 <CANij+dcT2n1RhbZbxKunarW088HD3924oJwtCn6oomBpp9GbTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7>
 <CANij+dcMnJjG7_1PHB951kt8qtGq8AygfnSNo39-f6EPVSkaiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7>
Message-ID: <20120603091958.I64319@shell.lmi.net>

> Forging an Apple 1 would certainly be possible, but quite difficult.
> All it takes is one minor mistake.

Quite difficult, indeed!
The real Apple 1 didn't have ANY USB ports!
And, it didn't use ANY microcontrollers!


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Jun  3 11:44:34 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 09:44:34 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <20120603091958.I64319@shell.lmi.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7>,
 <20120603091958.I64319@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com>

On 3 Jun 2012 at 9:25, Fred Cisin wrote:

> > Forging an Apple 1 would certainly be possible, but quite difficult.
> > All it takes is one minor mistake.
> 
> Quite difficult, indeed!
> The real Apple 1 didn't have ANY USB ports!
> And, it didn't use ANY microcontrollers!

At this point, I have to ask myself this:  "What's the practical 
difference between a "genuine" Apple I and one constructed from old 
parts (even old PCB)?"

In other words, what TANGIBLE difference is there?  

I think that this is a valid question for the scientifically-minded.  

While someone may insist that it's not possible to make a perfect 
copy of the Mona Lisa, it's certainly not outside the realm of 
possibility to make a perfect copy of an old computer.

--Chuck





From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun  3 11:47:56 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 09:47:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CANij+ddgicGcp6teDMRNo48W7ncOUvGO_hPaEmns4Qk=GmtkOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FC98DB2.3050904@atarimuseum.com> <4FC98FFC.2090901@gmail.com>
 <SNT129-W21BE0EEAA3846CC4B6C5B4A3090@phx.gbl>
 <CANij+dfWsepnkw8w0x+go6WKEf-CLu82CXrMwX4u1RgauU0eKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCA94A4.9080409@jwsss.com>
 <CANij+dcT2n1RhbZbxKunarW088HD3924oJwtCn6oomBpp9GbTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <08CF9CE2805C4398B0968D929AEB8157@hd2600xt6a04f7>
 <CANij+dcMnJjG7_1PHB951kt8qtGq8AygfnSNo39-f6EPVSkaiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7>
 <CANij+ddgicGcp6teDMRNo48W7ncOUvGO_hPaEmns4Qk=GmtkOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120603094219.Y64319@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 2 Jun 2012, William Donzelli wrote:
> Please realize that when you are dealing with Apple 1 "level"
> artifacts, the fakes have to be *perfect*. Perfect enough to undergo
> scrutiny under a series of lab grade tests and expert eyeballs.

. . . such as paint on the right date codes on top AND bottom of ALL the
chips, and don't use RoHS solder?


From js at cimmeri.com  Sun Jun  3 12:05:17 2012
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 12:05:17 -0500
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1338742802.48548.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.0.1338742802.48548.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4FCB994D.2080207@cimmeri.com>



On Sat, 2 Jun 2012, William Donzelli wrote:

> Please realize that when you are dealing with Apple 1 "level"
> artifacts, the fakes have to be *perfect*. Perfect enough to undergo
> scrutiny under a series of lab grade tests and expert eyeballs.
>   

I would think the hardest part would be finding the properly aged, unused board material itself.   Boards from 1976 have definite technological characteristics, along with the patina of aging, compared to a board cut today.

- John Singleton



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 12:05:42 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 13:05:42 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <8FC555C50503499DA946C85FA14D71EE@hd2600xt6a04f7>
 <20120603091958.I64319@shell.lmi.net>
 <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddNXcb4_L0wBQtTP8U6uX0_-1nzfC0=-F+8mKNVmLX4NQ@mail.gmail.com>

> At this point, I have to ask myself this: ?"What's the practical
> difference between a "genuine" Apple I and one constructed from old
> parts (even old PCB)?"
>
> In other words, what TANGIBLE difference is there?
>
> I think that this is a valid question for the scientifically-minded.

Put some of the solder and/or traces under a microscope - the
oxidation will be different.

--
Will



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 12:16:21 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 13:16:21 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FCB994D.2080207@cimmeri.com>
References: <mailman.0.1338742802.48548.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <4FCB994D.2080207@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcF8hL4Y4th+8Zzfd6eV6VR9erKgbMr9HADDnUxaq=zXQ@mail.gmail.com>

> I would think the hardest part would be finding the properly aged, unused
> board material itself. ? Boards from 1976 have definite technological
> characteristics, along with the patina of aging, compared to a board cut
> today.

Yes, it would be hard, but not impossible. I come across chunks of old
circuit board stock all the time, including the weird materials that
have been obsolete for 40 years.

The hardest part is getting the oxidation right on any of the metal
surfaces, including (and probably most importantly) the solder/pin
interfaces.

--
Will



From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Jun  3 12:37:50 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 10:37:50 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CANij+ddNXcb4_L0wBQtTP8U6uX0_-1nzfC0=-F+8mKNVmLX4NQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <CANij+ddNXcb4_L0wBQtTP8U6uX0_-1nzfC0=-F+8mKNVmLX4NQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com>

On 3 Jun 2012 at 13:05, William Donzelli wrote:

> Put some of the solder and/or traces under a microscope - the
> oxidation will be different.

And that matters--how?  I'd think that oxidation would be highly 
variable depending on storage conditions.

I have  a tuba and tried to sell it for a time and got almost no 
interest.  After I turned up a photo of Arnold Jacobs (late of the 
Chicago Symphony) playing it, there was a flood of interest.

Mind you, the tuba hadn't changed.

Is this some sort of superstition wherein the ghost of someone 
inhabits it, thereby rendering it more valuable?

I just don't get it.  How, objectively,  is a coffee cup that Steve 
Jobs once drank out of any different from a coffee cup from the same 
manufacturer's lot? 

--Chuck


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 12:40:11 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 10:40:11 -0700
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJ6qA9=FAHpoCgQKsoBdC=Hy7oLNsGqBTJnt0cZE0r-Sg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SNT137-ds1067AA7387C08EAD5832D281080@phx.gbl>
 <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ6qA9=FAHpoCgQKsoBdC=Hy7oLNsGqBTJnt0cZE0r-Sg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+5DJu6mh+pbPBDt2ei-3UKAd7UAhtsk3n5dUGhQzym4g@mail.gmail.com>

One last reply on this topic, this is a good reference page:

http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html

You might have to refer to any pinout information available in the
VCB02 and VS3100 manuals to determine if there are any functional
differences in the BC18Z and BC19S cables.

http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html#bc19s

BC19S Cable for Color Monitor

BC19S

Description:

VAXstation 3100 Color monitor cable, 10 feet long.

Specification:

15-way D-type, female connector with fixing screws at the system end,
and connector block with screw fixing at the monitor end. The
connector block has the following connectors:

      * three BNC male connectors, on short leads, for the monitor.
      * 4-way keyboard socket.
      * 7-way socket for the mouse.

The 3 BNC connectors are embossed with the legend 'R', 'G', or 'B',
and the short leads to which they are attached are Color coded red,
green, or blue.

Typical Usage:

Used with VAXstation 3100 models 30, 38, 48 (Color - not SPX). Also
used with the VAXstation 2000 (Color).

Ordering Information:

BC19S-10 p/n 17-01480-01


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 12:57:45 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 13:57:45 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddNXcb4_L0wBQtTP8U6uX0_-1nzfC0=-F+8mKNVmLX4NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcqpVVjoNXmAvyFSp4oi0F_iieEboDJ1898WEdNV7P7cg@mail.gmail.com>

> And that matters--how? ?I'd think that oxidation would be highly
> variable depending on storage conditions.

When the original Apple 1 boards were stuffed, the chips were new, or
maybe at most just a few years old. The solder wetted the pins nicely,
and all is fine. The pin/solder interface ages just as it should - a
well known process. Then, 35 years later, some guy wants to fake an
Apple 1. Sure, with work, he can find all original chips with proper
date codes and everything, but the pins will have had many years to
age. If he does not clean up the pins, the solder joints will be
suboptimal*, and will be noticed during the authentication process. If
he does clean up the pins, he likely will not be able to match to what
the oxidation should be, either by overcleaning or undercleaning (or
etches, or scratches, or pitting, or a million other effects), and
this will be noticed during the authentication process. That
authenication process, with all those fancy microscopes and such, can
be a real bitch.

*This is why chips, especially surface mount parts, have shelf lives,
and real manufacturers generally do not like to use parts that are
over a couple years old.

--
Will



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Jun  3 12:58:34 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 18:58:34 +0100
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+5DJu6mh+pbPBDt2ei-3UKAd7UAhtsk3n5dUGhQzym4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SNT137-ds1067AA7387C08EAD5832D281080@phx.gbl>
 <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ6qA9=FAHpoCgQKsoBdC=Hy7oLNsGqBTJnt0cZE0r-Sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOw+5DJu6mh+pbPBDt2ei-3UKAd7UAhtsk3n5dUGhQzym4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <080001cd41b2$821068b0$86313a10$@ntlworld.com>

Thanks Glen, that looks like a really useful reference.

Regards

Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick
> Sent: 03 June 2012 18:40
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> 
> One last reply on this topic, this is a good reference page:
> 
> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html
> 
> You might have to refer to any pinout information available in the
> VCB02 and VS3100 manuals to determine if there are any functional
> differences in the BC18Z and BC19S cables.
> 
> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html#bc19s
> 
> BC19S Cable for Color Monitor
> 
> BC19S
> 
> Description:
> 
> VAXstation 3100 Color monitor cable, 10 feet long.
> 
> Specification:
> 
> 15-way D-type, female connector with fixing screws at the system end, and
> connector block with screw fixing at the monitor end. The connector block
> has the following connectors:
> 
>       * three BNC male connectors, on short leads, for the monitor.
>       * 4-way keyboard socket.
>       * 7-way socket for the mouse.
> 
> The 3 BNC connectors are embossed with the legend 'R', 'G', or 'B', and
the
> short leads to which they are attached are Color coded red, green, or
blue.
> 
> Typical Usage:
> 
> Used with VAXstation 3100 models 30, 38, 48 (Color - not SPX). Also used
with
> the VAXstation 2000 (Color).
> 
> Ordering Information:
> 
> BC19S-10 p/n 17-01480-01



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun  3 13:12:51 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 11:12:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <CANij+ddNXcb4_L0wBQtTP8U6uX0_-1nzfC0=-F+8mKNVmLX4NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20120603104659.T67281@shell.lmi.net>

> > Put some of the solder and/or traces under a microscope - the
> > oxidation will be different.
On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> And that matters--how?  I'd think that oxidation would be highly
> variable depending on storage conditions.

. . . and, if it had ever been repaired?
Could THAT aging be accelerated by humid oxygen enhanced storage?

> Is this some sort of superstition wherein the ghost of someone
> inhabits it, thereby rendering it more valuable?

Maybe by the bits that were left behind?


You and I might not be impressed by "George Washington's Shoe-Horn!",
but some people are.




From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Jun  3 13:12:54 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 11:12:54 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcqpVVjoNXmAvyFSp4oi0F_iieEboDJ1898WEdNV7P7cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddNXcb4_L0wBQtTP8U6uX0_-1nzfC0=-F+8mKNVmLX4NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CANij+dcqpVVjoNXmAvyFSp4oi0F_iieEboDJ1898WEdNV7P7cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCBA926.3010306@bitsavers.org>

On 6/3/12 10:57 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
>If he does not clean up the pins, the solder joints will be
> suboptimal

All of the ICs are socketed using TI sockets. You aren't going to get the oxidation
to match at the point where the IC sticks out of the socket. You aren't very likely to
find the right solder mask, or get it to exactly match the machines that can easily be
examined at CHM. I have actually compared the two we currently have, and it would be
easy to detect a forged third board.



From teoz at neo.rr.com  Sun Jun  3 13:18:28 2012
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:18:28 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddNXcb4_L0wBQtTP8U6uX0_-1nzfC0=-F+8mKNVmLX4NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CANij+dcqpVVjoNXmAvyFSp4oi0F_iieEboDJ1898WEdNV7P7cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8327765C87340109DBE27DA761C9FCB@hd2600xt6a04f7>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Apple I on Ebay


Sure, with work, he can find all original chips with proper
> date codes and everything, but the pins will have had many years to
> age. If he does not clean up the pins, the solder joints will be
> suboptimal*, and will be noticed during the authentication process. > Will
>

Suboptimal for a device that is not expected to even be powered on let alone 
used enough for early failure?
These boards were hand soldered to begin with, you have to master the makers 
(woz) soldering style and then chemically age the solder without affecting 
anything else.



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 13:36:53 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:36:53 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FCBA926.3010306@bitsavers.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddNXcb4_L0wBQtTP8U6uX0_-1nzfC0=-F+8mKNVmLX4NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CANij+dcqpVVjoNXmAvyFSp4oi0F_iieEboDJ1898WEdNV7P7cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCBA926.3010306@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfwQwk-vJpbxzvriUh0UbsUVYFkEi2aYF3T1cu4=YE8Qw@mail.gmail.com>

> All of the ICs are socketed using TI sockets.

The same hold true - the pin/solder interface for sockets or the
pin/solder interface for chips.

(I had forgotten that the chips in an Apple 1 are socketed).

--
Will


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 13:37:49 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:37:49 -0400
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <B8327765C87340109DBE27DA761C9FCB@hd2600xt6a04f7>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddNXcb4_L0wBQtTP8U6uX0_-1nzfC0=-F+8mKNVmLX4NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CANij+dcqpVVjoNXmAvyFSp4oi0F_iieEboDJ1898WEdNV7P7cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <B8327765C87340109DBE27DA761C9FCB@hd2600xt6a04f7>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfdoHXLPQz_ppvuddf0UdCHr3jDouBcgqsRBLV407swgQ@mail.gmail.com>

> Suboptimal for a device that is not expected to even be powered on let alone
> used enough for early failure?

Completely irrelevant to the authentication process.

--
Will


From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 13:57:18 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 20:57:18 +0200
Subject: Philips P800 family minis
In-Reply-To: <4FCA7B2D.1010805@otter.se>
References: <mailman.1.1338656403.38076.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <4FCA7B2D.1010805@otter.se>
Message-ID: <01c701cd41ba$b40c2630$1c247290$@gmail.com>

I just finished picking up the P800's. A quick overview of what's there:

- 3 x P859 (one looks like the board set is incomplete)
- 1 x P856/P857? (no type label, marked "defect" in black marker on top)
Aren't these supposed to have core memory? No core found inside.
- 1 x card cage with 6 cards. No idea what this is yet.
- 1 x P833 cassette drive enclosure with two drives fitted.
- 2 x P830-010 8"disk drive enclosure (looks like it can hold 2 drives). One
of these is new-in-box
- 2 x 8" floppy disk drive to fit the enclosures
- 3 x X1215 cartridge disk drive. Looks like it has an internal fixed
platter as well.
- 10 x 14" disc cartridge
- Some boxes with spare cards and parts
- Cables
- 16 Binders with manuals

I'm taking an inventory of the manuals first. Will post the list once it's
complete.

Cheers,

Camiel



From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Jun  3 14:20:30 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 12:20:30 -0700
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcqpVVjoNXmAvyFSp4oi0F_iieEboDJ1898WEdNV7P7cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <CANij+dcqpVVjoNXmAvyFSp4oi0F_iieEboDJ1898WEdNV7P7cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCB568E.8271.1237CC9@cclist.sydex.com>

On 3 Jun 2012 at 13:57, William Donzelli wrote:

> That authenication process, with all those fancy microscopes and such,
> can be a real bitch. 

All at a price, however, which doubtless adds considerably to the 
asking price.

Got to have the right spiritual mojo, IOW.

--Chuck



From nico at farumdata.dk  Sun Jun  3 14:33:38 2012
From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 21:33:38 +0200
Subject: Philips P800 family minis
References: <mailman.1.1338656403.38076.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <4FCA7B2D.1010805@otter.se> <01c701cd41ba$b40c2630$1c247290$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <221031B7008F43189A7B1DCE101F773F@udvikling>

If my experience with P6000 is anything to go by (P6000 used some P800 
hardware), I can give some details :
- the cassette drives are ECMA34. This means about 250K on each side of the 
cassette. The logic wants +6VDC
I've seen 2 types, 1 where the lid comes halfway down, and where the casset 
is mounted vertically, and 1 type where the cassette is inserted 
horizontally. Connector- and signalwise, they are identical.
- all 8" floppy drives drives I've seen, use 115VAC for the motor. Check for 
bad/dried out rubber cabling
/Nico
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Camiel Vanderhoeven" <iamcamiel at gmail.com>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" <cctech at classiccmp.org>; 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 8:57 PM
Subject: RE: Philips P800 family minis


>I just finished picking up the P800's. A quick overview of what's there:
>
> - 3 x P859 (one looks like the board set is incomplete)
> - 1 x P856/P857? (no type label, marked "defect" in black marker on top)
> Aren't these supposed to have core memory? No core found inside.
> - 1 x card cage with 6 cards. No idea what this is yet.
> - 1 x P833 cassette drive enclosure with two drives fitted.
> - 2 x P830-010 8"disk drive enclosure (looks like it can hold 2 drives). 
> One
> of these is new-in-box
> - 2 x 8" floppy disk drive to fit the enclosures
> - 3 x X1215 cartridge disk drive. Looks like it has an internal fixed
> platter as well.
> - 10 x 14" disc cartridge
> - Some boxes with spare cards and parts
> - Cables
> - 16 Binders with manuals
>
> I'm taking an inventory of the manuals first. Will post the list once it's
> complete.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Camiel
> 


--
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter.
We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam.
SPAMfighter has removed 384 of my spam emails to date.
Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

The Professional version does not have this message




From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Sun Jun  3 15:34:42 2012
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 22:34:42 +0200
Subject: Philips P800 family minis
In-Reply-To: <01c701cd41ba$b40c2630$1c247290$@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1338656403.38076.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <4FCA7B2D.1010805@otter.se> <01c701cd41ba$b40c2630$1c247290$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCBCA62.1010104@bluewin.ch>


> - 1 x P856/P857? (no type label, marked "defect" in black marker on top)
> Aren't these supposed to have core memory? No core found inside.

A minimal  P856 has one PCB with the CPU, and one PCB with 32kx16 core on it.
P857 has 1 to 4 core PCB's.
Front panel, cardcage and powersupply are identical.

Jos



From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 15:37:05 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 22:37:05 +0200
Subject: Philips P800 family minis
References: <mailman.1.1338656403.38076.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <4FCA7B2D.1010805@otter.se> 
Message-ID: <01cb01cd41c8$a4111520$ec333f60$@gmail.com>

Here are the manuals. It looks like there are some duplicates. If you'd like
anything scanned, let me know, and I'll give it priority. My intention is to
scan all of it for contribution to bitsavers:

-	Binder
	o	Reference manual P858, P859
	o	Field Support Manual Extended Control Panel P858
	o	Field support manual P859 Rack (M4R) & Power Supply
-	Binder (2x)
	o	P851M Volume 1 Central Processor & Memories Technical Manual
	o	P851M Volume 2 Control Units Technical Manual
-	Binder
	o	Field Support Manual Flexible Disc Control Unit (F1MZ)
P830-150 PTS6751-002 Equipment Shelf P830-010 (2x)
	o	Field Support Manual Flexible Disc Control Units F1MZA
P830-150 PTS6751-002 F1MZ06 PTS6751-510 Equipment Shelf P830-010
	o	Field Support Manual Flexible Disc Control Units MIFZ
PTS6751-103
-	Binder
	o	Field Support Manual Flexible Disc Control Units F1MB
P830-050 PTS6849 F1MB06 PTS6849-501 Equipment Shelf P830-010
	o	Preliminary P800M Interface And Installation Manual (P852M,
P856M and P857M related)
-	Binder
	o	Field Support Manual Flexible Disc Drive 1M P830-025 PTS6791
P4500-035 P300
	o	Service Manual Flexible Disc Drive P830-015 PTS6867 PTS8861
	o	Service Manual Flexible Disc Drive P3431 P830-005
	o	Service Manual Flexible Disc Drive P3431 P830-006
-	Binder
	o	Preliminary P800M Interface and Installation Manual (P852M,
P856M and P857M related)
-	Binder
	o	P855M MIOS Drivers Users Guide
	o	P851M Volume 2 Control Units Technical Manual
	o	Field Support Manual Control Unit For Serial Data Transfer
(SCUZ) P845-140 PTS6859
	o	Field Support Manual Synchronous/A-Synchronous Line Control
Unit (SALCU-Z) P845-160 PTS6857 PTS8857
	o	Field Support Manual Synchronous/A-Synchronous Line Control
Unit (SALCU-Z) P845-160 PTS6857
-	Binder
	o	P856M/P857M CPU Service Manual
-	Binder
	o	Field Support Manual A-Synchronous Medium Speed Data Line
Multiplexor (AMA8A) V24/V28 Interface P845-060
	o	Field Support Manual A-Synchronous Medium Speed Data Line
Multiplexor (AMA8C) TTL/Current Loop Interface P845-070
	o	Field Support Manual Asynchronous Medium Speed Line
Multiplexor Type Z (AMA4Z) P845-180 / Type V (AMA4V) PTS6741-001
	o	Field Support Manual Multiple Asynchronous Control Unit
(ASCU4Z) P845-145 PTS8853
-	Binder
	o	Field Support Manual Central Processor Unit (P857EB) P854
PTS6925
-	Binder
	o	Field Support Manual Central Processor Unit (CP1A) P853
	o	Field Support Manual P853/P854 Racks (6U6/6U12) & Power
Supplies
	o	Field Support Manual P843-500/PTS8890-001
	o	Field Support Manual Hand Held Control Panel
P843-500/PTS8890-001
	o	Field Support Manual Digital Extended Control Panel P843-510
	o	Field Support Manual P843-120 Input/Output Processor (IOPZR)
-	Binder
	o	Field Support Manual Eprom/Prom 16K Words Memory P851M-010
(2x)
	o	Field Support Manual Reprogrammable Read Only Memory
P851M-006 (1K) P851M-007 (2K) P851M-008 (4K)
	o	Field Support Manual Dynamic Ram Memory 32K/64K (GMB1)
P851M-016:16K/16 P851M-017:32K/16 PTS8221
	o	Field Support Manual UPL Master Slave Memory 1M8
P4500-026/027 PTS8823
	o	Field Support Manual MOS Memory Module 128K16 (WMD-16/27MC)
P4000-24 PTS6773 P843-608
	o	Field Support Manual P4000-24 (WMD) MOS Memory Module 128K16
-	Binder
	o	Memory Test Program BBRAM applicable to semiconductor
memories greater than 32KW
	o	Test Program for CPU P854,P858,P859,CP1BF Test Of Memory
Management Part REMMU1
	o	Test Program for CPU P854,P858,P859 Test Of Page Fault Test
Of Automatic Restart REPAF
	o	Test Program for CPU P854,P858,P859,CP1BF Test Of
Instruction Set CP57RE
	o	FPPE Test Program EFPP1 Applicable To Floating Point
Processor
	o	Test Program For CP1BF,CP2B Test Of Memory Management Part
MMU2B
	o	Test Program For CP1BF,CP2B Test Of Page Fault Test Of
Automatic Restart PAF2B
	o	Test Program Release Notice Number 245
-	Binder
	o	Preliminary X1215/16 Cartridge Disk Drive Unit 
-	Binder "P800 Test Programs" with handwritten and typewritten test
descriptions
	o	Floppy
	o	Pertec MTT
	o	X/2/5
	o	PTP
	o	FHD
	o	X1210
	o	LP
	o	CPU + OPTIONS
	o	Cassette
	o	Datacom
	o	MIOS

Cheers,

Camiel



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 15:42:21 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:42:21 -0400
Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog
 DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmWhMA_Y4bK9A6v656xEdWv07uXnwih7Qu0NnziY43t3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkVvD8zH=cOM8+t0nim+r3p+DsNSxKGcsMzhAzBWPTjRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ4ycS0Lcv1tQdZ7uT+v_khgtJ0OYPm7WcKmQd6S_Erjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmWhMA_Y4bK9A6v656xEdWv07uXnwih7Qu0NnziY43t3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmS3uzre5H3Kq5WeJhe-OxiwUQQaGJRCMNL9T_iZun2SA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have an SQ3706A, REV H, firmware REV L.

OK... looking at my hardware...

The UC07 has a paper-label on the EPROM marked G143M and the 40-pin
chip with the serial number and barcode says "Rev F" (there's a "Rev
D" written on the board in Sharpie up by the SCSI connector).

My Dilog boards are, according to the paper labels in the upper-left
corner, SQ3703As.  One is marked Rev G and looks clean.  The other is
a Rev E with a few green ECO wires (the Rev E board has an EPROM
marked "Rev G", and the Rev G board has firmware marked "Rev H".

I'm guessing there isn't a lot of info out there to attempt to see if
it's possible to "convert" an SQ3703A to an SQ3706A in the field, but
if anyone knows anything about both boards, I'd be game to try if it's
EPROMs or PALs or whatever.

-ethan


From tom94022 at comcast.net  Sun Jun  3 16:26:13 2012
From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:26:13 -0700
Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <mailman.554.1338735083.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.554.1338735083.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260>

I have just received several hundred 5?-inch FDDs which I would like to copy
to modern media.  They contain WordPerfect files

Does anyone know a low cost copying service?  The best I have found so far
is about $5 per disk although I suspect I could negotiate a lower bulk rate.

In the alternative, can anyone recommend a USB 5?-inch reader?  Device Side
Data's FC5025 USB 5.25" floppy controller (http://www.deviceside.com/) looks
like a starting point towards a reader for about $100.

Tom




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun  3 16:45:29 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:45:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260>
References: <mailman.554.1338735083.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260>
Message-ID: <20120603143921.F67443@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Tom Gardner wrote:
> I have just received several hundred 5?-inch FDDs which I would like to copy
> to modern media.  They contain WordPerfect files
> Does anyone know a low cost copying service?  The best I have found so far
> is about $5 per disk although I suspect I could negotiate a lower bulk rate.
> In the alternative, can anyone recommend a USB 5?-inch reader?  Device Side
> Data's FC5025 USB 5.25" floppy controller (http://www.deviceside.com/) looks
> like a starting point towards a reader for about $100.

Before anybody gets into the cockamamie advice of catweasel V diskferret,
where are you?

Have machines with 5.25" drives become that difficult to find?

Unless you have OTHER plans and goals, you do NOT need a 5.25" interface
for your current computer; you need a couple of hours use of a vintage machine.
Even if you have to do two steps - 5.25" to 3.5", 3.5" to "cloud", . . .


Do you have software that won't choke on WordPervert files?







From ian_primus at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  3 16:56:08 2012
From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:56:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260>
Message-ID: <1338760568.90765.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

--- On Sun, 6/3/12, Tom Gardner <tom94022 at comcast.net> wrote:

> I have just received several hundred
> 5?-inch FDDs which I would like to copy
> to modern media.? They contain WordPerfect files
> 
> Does anyone know a low cost copying service?? The best
> I have found so far
> is about $5 per disk although I suspect I could negotiate a
> lower bulk rate.
> 
> In the alternative, can anyone recommend a USB 5?-inch
> reader?? Device Side
> Data's FC5025 USB 5.25" floppy controller (http://www.deviceside.com/) looks
> like a starting point towards a reader for about $100.

If they're just PC disks, then the easiest, fastest, cheapest method would be to simply use an older PC with a 5 1/4" floppy drive... The drives are dirt common and all PC's can use them up until about the late P4 era. There should be absolutely no problem finding the equipment to actually read the disks and copy the data to something else. The various USB disk interface solutions are vast overkill if all you want to do is copy files from MSDOS format floppies, since the "vintage" hardware is not that old, or hard to find/operate.

I mean, I suppose if you get really stuck, someone here could probably read them for you - I know I have the equipment necessary to read them, and doing so would be no problem - except that it takes a rather long time to read in a couple hundred floppies... Where are you located?

Of course, that solves the "getting the files off the disks onto other media" problem, you're on your own to find something to read the files themselves. Word processor file formats are subject to change.

-Ian



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Jun  3 15:54:55 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 21:54:55 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Odd capacitor identification
In-Reply-To: <4FCB097A.8070209@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jun 2,
 12 11:51:38 pm
Message-ID: <m1SbHpF-000J4fC@p850ug1>

> Thanks for all the suggestions.  I've pulled the PCB out and the 
> positive terminals at both ends of each of the three capacitors are 
> directly connected to one another by a trace on the underside of the 
> PCB.  Given this, is there any reason I shouldn't replace these with a 
> more conventional 1300uF 75V electrolytic?

My only conern would be that such a replacement might have a higher 
inductance amd that might matter. I suspect there are 
conventional-looking capacitors that would work, though.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Jun  3 15:30:26 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 21:30:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Xerox diablo 3000
In-Reply-To: <a1d32fb1-9a4f-4ae9-abac-0e949c8e9ce6@email.android.com> from
 "Dave Rowland" at Jun 2, 12 12:16:26 pm
Message-ID: <m1SbHRX-000J4cC@p850ug1>

> 
> 
> 
> At our museum we have just been donated a couple of Xerox Diablo 3000 
> computers. Does anyone have schematics and/or service manuals . We have 
> media but nothing else. Thanks

I don;'t have any technical information, but I do have such a machine. I 
am also lacking any software for it (not even a boot disk)....

When things settile down a bit here, I could be convinced to rtrace out 
schematic sfrom mine if necessary. From what I remembr it's not that 
complicted, althoghh I do recall an 8048-series mcirocontroller on the 
disk controller board.

It's been a lon time since I was inside it (lack of software means it 
wasn't of great interest to me). I seem to rememmber 4 logic boards 
behind the monitor section. Possible CPU, memory, video and disk? The 
drives and monitor looked fairly  conventiona, and there's a PSU in the 
base under those units.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Jun  3 16:53:18 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 22:53:18 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Philips P800 family minis
In-Reply-To: <01c701cd41ba$b40c2630$1c247290$@gmail.com> from "Camiel
 Vanderhoeven" at Jun 3, 12 08:57:18 pm
Message-ID: <m1SbIjk-000J4mC@p850ug1>

> 
> I just finished picking up the P800's. A quick overview of what's there:
> 
> - 3 x P859 (one looks like the board set is incomplete)

Am I right in thinking that his is related to the P854?

> - 1 x P856/P857? (no type label, marked "defect" in black marker on top)
> Aren't these supposed to have core memory? No core found inside.

I thought so. Maybe that's why it's defective :-(

FWIW, the P850 does use core memeory, but there are memory modules 
(containg the core and drivers spearately fitted i nthe machine, it's not 
on boards in the main crdcage. Is it possible you've missed the core in 
your 856?

> - 1 x card cage with 6 cards. No idea what this is yet.

Maybe soem specail I/O unig. Philips appaer to ahve made a lot of 
realtime I/O bords, ADCs, DACs, etc.

> - 1 x P833 cassette drive enclosure with two drives fitted.
> - 2 x P830-010 8"disk drive enclosure (looks like it can hold 2 drives). One
> of these is new-in-box

IF that's the unit I am thinki of, it does, indeed, take 2 drives. It's also
the only thing you've mentioned that I also own...

> - 2 x 8" floppy disk drive to fit the enclosures
> - 3 x X1215 cartridge disk drive. Looks like it has an internal fixed
> platter as well.
> - 10 x 14" disc cartridge
> - Some boxes with spare cards and parts
> - Cables
> - 16 Binders with manuals
> 
> I'm taking an inventory of the manuals first. Will post the list once it's
> complete.

Very nice haul!

-tony


From dgahling at hotmail.com  Sun Jun  3 17:01:40 2012
From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 18:01:40 -0400
Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <20120603143921.F67443@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.554.1338735083.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260>, <20120603143921.F67443@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <BLU166-W2329E971F3A00CE9C9170CC90E0@phx.gbl>


word will read wordperfect quite happily.a 5.25" PC drive should cost < $10 and work just fine.
copying, how about teledisk? or dos "copy" command?

> Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 14:45:29 -0700
> From: cisin at xenosoft.com
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks
> 
> On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Tom Gardner wrote:
> > I have just received several hundred 5?-inch FDDs which I would like to copy
> > to modern media.  They contain WordPerfect files
> > Does anyone know a low cost copying service?  The best I have found so far
> > is about $5 per disk although I suspect I could negotiate a lower bulk rate.
> > In the alternative, can anyone recommend a USB 5?-inch reader?  Device Side
> > Data's FC5025 USB 5.25" floppy controller (http://www.deviceside.com/) looks
> > like a starting point towards a reader for about $100.
> 
> Before anybody gets into the cockamamie advice of catweasel V diskferret,
> where are you?
> 
> Have machines with 5.25" drives become that difficult to find?
> 
> Unless you have OTHER plans and goals, you do NOT need a 5.25" interface
> for your current computer; you need a couple of hours use of a vintage machine.
> Even if you have to do two steps - 5.25" to 3.5", 3.5" to "cloud", . . .
> 
> 
> Do you have software that won't choke on WordPervert files?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
 		 	   		  

From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sun Jun  3 17:08:23 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 18:08:23 -0400
Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <20120603143921.F67443@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.554.1338735083.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260> <20120603143921.F67443@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FCBE057.30708@neurotica.com>

On 06/03/2012 05:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Tom Gardner wrote:
>> I have just received several hundred 5?-inch FDDs which I would like to copy
>> to modern media.  They contain WordPerfect files
>> Does anyone know a low cost copying service?  The best I have found so far
>> is about $5 per disk although I suspect I could negotiate a lower bulk rate.
>> In the alternative, can anyone recommend a USB 5?-inch reader?  Device Side
>> Data's FC5025 USB 5.25" floppy controller (http://www.deviceside.com/) looks
>> like a starting point towards a reader for about $100.
> 
> Before anybody gets into the cockamamie advice of catweasel V diskferret,
> where are you?
> 
> Have machines with 5.25" drives become that difficult to find?

  No, but 5.25" drives themselves have.  I even got physically shoved
out of the way (AHEM, HI DAN) at a hamfest for a box of them just this
morning. ;)

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Sun Jun  3 17:42:51 2012
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:42:51 +1200
Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <1338760568.90765.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260>
 <1338760568.90765.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CACaZngn2ADWpt8fB+2JdoPX1shVzVyEALE+QqAKLZXy_D-oFqA@mail.gmail.com>

I've extracted files off 5.25 inch floppies for a few people who no longer
have the gear.  It takes longer than you think because you need to manually
check every disk for degredation.

But yes, if it's 5.25 and MS-DOS and all that is needed is extraction (and
not extraction AND conversion), then it's a straightforward process if you
can borrow an old machine.  I wouldn't go buying a USB device simply for
this task.

Tez

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- On Sun, 6/3/12, Tom Gardner <tom94022 at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > I have just received several hundred
> > 5?-inch FDDs which I would like to copy
> > to modern media.  They contain WordPerfect files
> >
> > Does anyone know a low cost copying service?  The best
> > I have found so far
> > is about $5 per disk although I suspect I could negotiate a
> > lower bulk rate.
> >
> > In the alternative, can anyone recommend a USB 5?-inch
> > reader?  Device Side
> > Data's FC5025 USB 5.25" floppy controller (http://www.deviceside.com/)
> looks
> > like a starting point towards a reader for about $100.
>
> If they're just PC disks, then the easiest, fastest, cheapest method would
> be to simply use an older PC with a 5 1/4" floppy drive... The drives are
> dirt common and all PC's can use them up until about the late P4 era. There
> should be absolutely no problem finding the equipment to actually read the
> disks and copy the data to something else. The various USB disk interface
> solutions are vast overkill if all you want to do is copy files from MSDOS
> format floppies, since the "vintage" hardware is not that old, or hard to
> find/operate.
>
> I mean, I suppose if you get really stuck, someone here could probably
> read them for you - I know I have the equipment necessary to read them, and
> doing so would be no problem - except that it takes a rather long time to
> read in a couple hundred floppies... Where are you located?
>
> Of course, that solves the "getting the files off the disks onto other
> media" problem, you're on your own to find something to read the files
> themselves. Word processor file formats are subject to change.
>
> -Ian
>
>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun  3 17:59:29 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 15:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <BLU166-W2329E971F3A00CE9C9170CC90E0@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.554.1338735083.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260>, <20120603143921.F67443@shell.lmi.net>
 <BLU166-W2329E971F3A00CE9C9170CC90E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20120603155606.R67443@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
> word will read wordperfect quite happily.

Are you stating that the version of WEIRD in Office 2011 will accept
WordPervert files?
If not, then think carefully about WHICH versions, and where the cutoff
is.

> a 5.25" PC drive should cost < $10 and work just fine.
> copying, how about teledisk? or dos "copy" command?

Once he gets a 5.25" drive, DOS COPY certainly will do the job.

COPY with the /S option (5.00? and above) will pick up the files from sub
directories also.


From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Sun Jun  3 18:19:59 2012
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:19:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>


I'm pondering putting 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives in a single chassis 
along with a Discferret / Kryoflux.  The 3.5" can be HD with no problem. 
I'm leery of the complications of DD versus HD 5.25" drives.  If I 
bulk-erase a DD disk and write to it with an HD drive, might there be any 
problems when the disk is used again on a DD drive?  Would simply 
formatting the DD disk be enough?

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Jun  3 18:37:59 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 16:37:59 -0700
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <4FCB92E7.10019.20F397B@cclist.sydex.com>

On 3 Jun 2012 at 16:19, David Griffith wrote:

> I'm pondering putting 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives in a single chassis
> along with a Discferret / Kryoflux.  The 3.5" can be HD with no
> problem. I'm leery of the complications of DD versus HD 5.25" drives. 
> If I bulk-erase a DD disk and write to it with an HD drive, might
> there be any problems when the disk is used again on a DD drive? 
> Would simply formatting the DD disk be enough?

The magnetic characteristics of 5.25" media are very different 
between 2D and HD recording modes.   I wouldn't recommend mixing 
things up.  2D on 2D media; HD on HD media.

You can get away with playing fast and loose with media on 3.5" 
drives, but there, the differences are much smaller.

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun  3 18:48:48 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:48:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, David Griffith wrote:
> I'm pondering putting 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives in a single chassis
> along with a Discferret / Kryoflux.  The 3.5" can be HD with no problem.
> I'm leery of the complications of DD versus HD 5.25" drives.  If I
> bulk-erase a DD disk and write to it with an HD drive, might there be any
> problems when the disk is used again on a DD drive?

That will usually be OK

> Would simply formatting the DD disk be enough?
NO.
Formatting or re-writing a DD track with an HD drive will not adequately
wipe the sides of the track enough for reading with a DD drive.  Although it
may look and work fine, if you never try to read it with anything but an
HD drive.

A DD track is about 1/3mm wide, and spaced about 1/2mm apart (48 tpi)
An HD track is about 1/6mm wide, and spaced about 1/4mm apart (96tpi)

The ENTIRE problem is that the 1/6mm wide head can NOT completely erase
the 1/3mm wide track, although it can do so enough that IT doesn't mind
the margins left behind.

Bulk erasing and formatting and writing a "360K"/DD with an HD drive will
give tracks that are 1/6mm wide spaced 1/2mm apart, and everybody is at
least OK with reading that.


For primarily reading, an HD drive will handle most of what you need, and
the rarer instances of writing can be dealt with by bulk erasing first.

If you're going to also mess with weird crap like 100tpi and 192 tpi, then
you need a large collection of alternative drives to swap in and out.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From ian_primus at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  3 18:52:49 2012
From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:52:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <1338767569.23426.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

--- On Sun, 6/3/12, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:

> I'm pondering putting 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives in a
> single chassis along with a Discferret / Kryoflux.? The
> 3.5" can be HD with no problem. I'm leery of the
> complications of DD versus HD 5.25" drives.? If I
> bulk-erase a DD disk and write to it with an HD drive, might
> there be any problems when the disk is used again on a DD
> drive?? Would simply formatting the DD disk be enough?

For maximum flexibility, you should use both a DD and a HD 5 1/4" drive in your enclosure. You can then install a toggle switch to switch the drive control lines if the interface board you're using only supports two floppy drives at once.

If you bulk erase a DD disk, then format it/write to it in a HD drive in DD mode (double stepping), and then further update it with a real DD drive, it'll usually work. The problem really comes in when you update a disk in the HD drive that was written in the DD drive - the narrower head of the HD drive won't erase the full DD track, so the DD drive will pick up both old and new information at once, leading to problems.

As long as you are mindful of this and are careful never to put yourself in a situation where the 80 track drive will be writing over 40 track data, it will work just fine almost always. But routinely writing DD disks in the 80 track drive, you're bound to forget sometimes, and wind up with a mess...

So, in short, yes. It will work. But I'd still strongly suggest you use a real DD drive for writing DD disks - it's still going to be more reliable.

-Ian



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun  3 19:12:10 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 17:12:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCB92E7.10019.20F397B@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FCB92E7.10019.20F397B@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20120603170724.S67443@shell.lmi.net>

> > I'm pondering putting 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives in a single chassis
> > along with a Discferret / Kryoflux.  The 3.5" can be HD with no
> > problem. I'm leery of the complications of DD versus HD 5.25" drives.
> > If I bulk-erase a DD disk and write to it with an HD drive, might
> > there be any problems when the disk is used again on a DD drive?
> > Would simply formatting the DD disk be enough?

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> The magnetic characteristics of 5.25" media are very different
> between 2D and HD recording modes.   I wouldn't recommend mixing
> things up.  2D on 2D media; HD on HD media.
> You can get away with playing fast and loose with media on 3.5"
> drives, but there, the differences are much smaller.

Yes, the coercivity of 5.25" is not very forgiving!  HD diskettes used for
360K tend to self-destruct rather soon.
Whereas the 600 Oersted V ~730 of 3.5" is arguably within range for
non-critical use.


However, I interpreted wht he was asking differently.  I assumed that he
was asking whether he could get away with 360K reading and writing on 300
Oerstedt diskettes using an HD drive.


We are looking at two different issues entirely!




From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Sun Jun  3 19:17:22 2012
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 17:17:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <20120603170724.S67443@shell.lmi.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FCB92E7.10019.20F397B@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20120603170724.S67443@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031713270.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote:

>>> I'm pondering putting 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives in a single chassis
>>> along with a Discferret / Kryoflux.  The 3.5" can be HD with no
>>> problem. I'm leery of the complications of DD versus HD 5.25" drives.
>>> If I bulk-erase a DD disk and write to it with an HD drive, might
>>> there be any problems when the disk is used again on a DD drive?
>>> Would simply formatting the DD disk be enough?
>
> On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> The magnetic characteristics of 5.25" media are very different
>> between 2D and HD recording modes.   I wouldn't recommend mixing
>> things up.  2D on 2D media; HD on HD media.
>> You can get away with playing fast and loose with media on 3.5"
>> drives, but there, the differences are much smaller.
>
> Yes, the coercivity of 5.25" is not very forgiving!  HD diskettes used for
> 360K tend to self-destruct rather soon.
> Whereas the 600 Oersted V ~730 of 3.5" is arguably within range for
> non-critical use.
>
> However, I interpreted wht he was asking differently.  I assumed that he
> was asking whether he could get away with 360K reading and writing on 300
> Oerstedt diskettes using an HD drive.
>
> We are looking at two different issues entirely!

What I'm proposing is writing bona-fide 360K disks using a 1.2M drive. 
The 360K disks I plan to read and write are stuff that a standard PC 
controller would have problems with (chiefly Apple and Commodore).  I 
don't think any 1.2M disks I'm likely to come across would give a standard 
PC controller a problem.

In any case, perhaps the most practical solution would be to put a 360K 
and 1.44M drive in the combo case and put the 1.2M drive in a case by 
itself.  I don't anticipate doing 1.2M terribly often, but there is a 
stack of them in my pile-o-stuff that need reading.

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Jun  3 19:17:38 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:17:38 -0700
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <1338767569.23426.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <1338767569.23426.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com>

On 3 Jun 2012 at 16:52, Mr Ian Primus wrote:

> If you bulk erase a DD disk, then format it/write to it in a HD drive
> in DD mode (double stepping), and then further update it with a real
> DD drive, it'll usually work. 

Obviously, "HD" means something different to me--500kbit/sec MFM data 
rate at 360 RPM recording, versus 250kbit/sec  MFM data rate at 300 
RPM.

If what was meant was 250Kbit/sec in a 96 tpi versus a 48 tpi drive, 
please say so.  I still have quite a few "720K" 5.25" MS-DOS 
formatted floppies kicking around, recorded at 96 tpi.  Heck, if 
memory serves, the Data General One laptop used them...

But if you mean HD=double data rate/high density, that's a different 
kettle of fish.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Jun  3 19:33:59 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:33:59 -0700
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <20120603170724.S67443@shell.lmi.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <4FCB92E7.10019.20F397B@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <20120603170724.S67443@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FCBA007.28676.2427F46@cclist.sydex.com>

On 3 Jun 2012 at 17:12, Fred Cisin wrote:

> Yes, the coercivity of 5.25" is not very forgiving!  HD diskettes used
> for 360K tend to self-destruct rather soon. Whereas the 600 Oersted V
> ~730 of 3.5" is arguably within range for non-critical use.

On the other hand, I've done jobs where the lot included HD 5.25" 
floppies recorded at 250K mixed in.  (I think the last one was from a 
Kaypro written  more than 20 years ago).  Surprisingly, they mostly 
read just fine.  I suspect that they were written on previously 
unused media and managed to hang on.  Only one showed non-recoverable 
errors.

Did anyone ever make a 96 tpi drive with a selectable-width tunnel-
erase for writing 48 tpi formats?  It would seem to be a practical 
thing to do, but I don't recall ever seeing such a beast.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Jun  3 19:39:35 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2012 17:39:35 -0700
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031713270.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <20120603170724.S67443@shell.lmi.net>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031713270.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <4FCBA157.17793.247A0DF@cclist.sydex.com>

On 3 Jun 2012 at 17:17, David Griffith wrote:

> In any case, perhaps the most practical solution would be to put a
> 360K and 1.44M drive in the combo case and put the 1.2M drive in a
> case by itself.  I don't anticipate doing 1.2M terribly often, but
> there is a stack of them in my pile-o-stuff that need reading.

Well, if I look over my shoulder at the table sitting next to me, 
there's an IBM 5170 (PC AT)-type case with three drives in it--a 3.5" 
HD, a 5.25" HD and a 5.25" DD (1.44M, 1.2M, 360K in common parlance).

They're all on a single 34-conductor cable hooked to the floppy side 
of a DTC 3280 SCSI controller.  It's possible to set the jumpers for 
4 floppy drives on the same cable as well, although you don't get 
individual motor control that way.

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun  3 19:41:55 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 17:41:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031713270.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4FCB92E7.10019.20F397B@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20120603170724.S67443@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031713270.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <20120603173709.X67443@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, David Griffith wrote:
> The 360K disks I plan to read and write are stuff that a standard PC
> controller would have problems with (chiefly Apple and Commodore).  I
> don't think any 1.2M disks I'm likely to come across would give a standard
> PC controller a problem.

There are a few HD alien disks.  But MOST of them, such as NEC APC-9801
1.2M 5.25", can be done with stock PC controller.

> In any case, perhaps the most practical solution would be to put a 360K
> and 1.44M drive in the combo case and put the 1.2M drive in a case by
> itself.  I don't anticipate doing 1.2M terribly often, but there is a
> stack of them in my pile-o-stuff that need reading.

Depending on how obscure things are gonna get, a 3.5" drive that can also
do 360 RPM, could be handy  (NEC APC-9801 3.5")


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun  3 19:48:49 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 17:48:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <1338767569.23426.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20120603174242.W67443@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Obviously, "HD" means something different to me--500kbit/sec MFM data
> rate at 360 RPM recording, versus 250kbit/sec  MFM data rate at 300
> RPM.

I think that he was referring to the "dual mode" drive, not the recording,
and to the issues involved in using a "1.2M" drive from a PC, lifted from
a 5170, with a 360K diskette, to try to read and write things such as
Apple2, TRS80 model 1, Kaypro2, etc.


We have a real problem with any carelessness in the terminology!
It's inaccurate as hell, but most people will understand what I MEAN if I
say "5150 360K drive" and "5170 1.2M drive" in such cases, and "DD" and
"HD" for the recordings, although I have NEVER been happy with saying
"quad density" for 250K-dtr, 300TPM 96tpi!  And I REFUSE to call the
double sided version of THAT "SUPER DENSITY"!



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Sun Jun  3 21:20:25 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2012 22:20:25 -0400
Subject: Emulex UC07 / 08 and Disks greater 2GB ?
In-Reply-To: <4FC2A154.40204@neurotica.com>
References: <20120525154501.GA72120@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120527125618.GA54473@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <4FC2A154.40204@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmT+FVdP26DuVetvSm5_nscJNgGCLzHF18UDGHXno+vEQ@mail.gmail.com>

> On 05/27/2012 08:56 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>> Has anyone a Fw. version above G143R on such a card?

I have G143M, which would not be newer if they are in ascending
alphabetical order.

Would a copy of that be interesting to examine, or is it common?

-ethan


From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Jun  4 00:39:00 2012
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 07:39:00 +0200
Subject: Emulex UC07 / 08 and Disks greater 2GB ?
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmT+FVdP26DuVetvSm5_nscJNgGCLzHF18UDGHXno+vEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120525154501.GA72120@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120527125618.GA54473@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FC2A154.40204@neurotica.com>
 <CAALmimmT+FVdP26DuVetvSm5_nscJNgGCLzHF18UDGHXno+vEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120604053900.GB76345@beast.freibergnet.de>

Ethan Dicks wrote:

> > On 05/27/2012 08:56 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >> Has anyone a Fw. version above G143R on such a card?
> 
> I have G143M, which would not be newer if they are in ascending
> alphabetical order.
> 
> Would a copy of that be interesting to examine, or is it common?
> 
> -ethan

At least i know of no place where we can find that version.
I have G143N and from somewhere from the net G143R.

At least I can put this on my Webserver.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Jun  4 00:45:19 2012
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 07:45:19 +0200
Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog
 DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmS3uzre5H3Kq5WeJhe-OxiwUQQaGJRCMNL9T_iZun2SA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkVvD8zH=cOM8+t0nim+r3p+DsNSxKGcsMzhAzBWPTjRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ4ycS0Lcv1tQdZ7uT+v_khgtJ0OYPm7WcKmQd6S_Erjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmWhMA_Y4bK9A6v656xEdWv07uXnwih7Qu0NnziY43t3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmS3uzre5H3Kq5WeJhe-OxiwUQQaGJRCMNL9T_iZun2SA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120604054519.GC76345@beast.freibergnet.de>

Ethan Dicks wrote:

> On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I have an SQ3706A, REV H, firmware REV L.
> 
> OK... looking at my hardware...
> 
> The UC07 has a paper-label on the EPROM marked G143M and the 40-pin
> chip with the serial number and barcode says "Rev F" (there's a "Rev
> D" written on the board in Sharpie up by the SCSI connector).

There is a manual for the UC07/08 on the net, it is one of the first hits
when you try to google. Haven't found anything regarding differences
between versions jet....
> 
> My Dilog boards are, according to the paper labels in the upper-left
> corner, SQ3703As.  One is marked Rev G and looks clean.  The other is
> a Rev E with a few green ECO wires (the Rev E board has an EPROM
> marked "Rev G", and the Rev G board has firmware marked "Rev H".
> 
> I'm guessing there isn't a lot of info out there to attempt to see if
> it's possible to "convert" an SQ3703A to an SQ3706A in the field, but
> if anyone knows anything about both boards, I'd be game to try if it's
> EPROMs or PALs or whatever.
> 
> -ethan

Found almost nothing for them.
I have a board LAbeled SQ703 where the 03 is on a paper label and the SQ7
is printed on the board. Have repaired it sometime, it is working as TMSCP
controller. It has an 10pin Connector for an Terminal to set it up on the
Interface connector side. I remember that I put the rom image from a 706 on
it (shadoo sent me one) but it doesn't work as 706.
I know that there is a 739 that can make both, MSCP and TMSCP...

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon Jun  4 03:38:07 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:38:07 +0100
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
References: <SNT137-ds1067AA7387C08EAD5832D281080@phx.gbl>
 <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ6qA9=FAHpoCgQKsoBdC=Hy7oLNsGqBTJnt0cZE0r-Sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOw+5DJu6mh+pbPBDt2ei-3UKAd7UAhtsk3n5dUGhQzym4g@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <083901cd422d$5fcb4150$1f61c3f0$@ntlworld.com>

For the record, it turns out that the BC19S cable also works on a VCB02.

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com]
> Sent: 03 June 2012 18:59
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> 
> Thanks Glen, that looks like a really useful reference.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick
> > Sent: 03 June 2012 18:40
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> >
> > One last reply on this topic, this is a good reference page:
> >
> > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html
> >
> > You might have to refer to any pinout information available in the
> > VCB02 and VS3100 manuals to determine if there are any functional
> > differences in the BC18Z and BC19S cables.
> >
> > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html#bc19s
> >
> > BC19S Cable for Color Monitor
> >
> > BC19S
> >
> > Description:
> >
> > VAXstation 3100 Color monitor cable, 10 feet long.
> >
> > Specification:
> >
> > 15-way D-type, female connector with fixing screws at the system end,
> > and connector block with screw fixing at the monitor end. The
> > connector block has the following connectors:
> >
> >       * three BNC male connectors, on short leads, for the monitor.
> >       * 4-way keyboard socket.
> >       * 7-way socket for the mouse.
> >
> > The 3 BNC connectors are embossed with the legend 'R', 'G', or 'B',
> > and the short leads to which they are attached are Color coded red,
green,
> or blue.
> >
> > Typical Usage:
> >
> > Used with VAXstation 3100 models 30, 38, 48 (Color - not SPX). Also
> > used with the VAXstation 2000 (Color).
> >
> > Ordering Information:
> >
> > BC19S-10 p/n 17-01480-01



From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Mon Jun  4 03:51:01 2012
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:51:01 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260>
References: <mailman.554.1338735083.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <98AF775B330045AEBD51089A2B4E9F01@U260>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041050100.8488@linuxserv.home>

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Tom Gardner wrote:
> I have just received several hundred 5?-inch FDDs which I would like to copy
> to modern media.  They contain WordPerfect files

How does one copy a Floppy Disk Drive? ;-)

Christian

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Mon Jun  4 03:54:59 2012
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:54:59 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>

On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote:
> A DD track is about 1/3mm wide, and spaced about 1/2mm apart (48 tpi)
> An HD track is about 1/6mm wide, and spaced about 1/4mm apart (96tpi)

How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I have enough 96tpi "DD" 
drives. I think you mix up track density and recording density, two 
unrelated things.

Christian


From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Jun  4 06:09:06 2012
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 07:09:06 -0400
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <20120603174242.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <1338767569.23426.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20120603174242.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FCC9752.6080701@compsys.to>

 >Fred Cisin wrote:

>>On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>  
>
>>Obviously, "HD" means something different to me--500kbit/sec MFM data
>>rate at 360 RPM recording, versus 250kbit/sec  MFM data rate at 300
>>RPM.
>>
>I think that he was referring to the "dual mode" drive, not the recording,
>and to the issues involved in using a "1.2M" drive from a PC, lifted from
>a 5170, with a 360K diskette, to try to read and write things such as
>Apple2, TRS80 model 1, Kaypro2, etc.
>
>
>We have a real problem with any carelessness in the terminology!
>It's inaccurate as hell, but most people will understand what I MEAN if I
>say "5150 360K drive" and "5170 1.2M drive" in such cases, and "DD" and
>"HD" for the recordings, although I have NEVER been happy with saying
>"quad density" for 250K-dtr, 300TPM 96tpi!  And I REFUSE to call the
>double sided version of THAT "SUPER DENSITY"!
>
Just to add some complexity (or perhaps some confusion) to the situation,
the RX50 from DEC uses DD floppy media, but if I remember correctly,
has 96 tpi.  I know that on a PC, the HD drive is used to read and WRITE
the RX50 floppy media using John Wilson's program "PUTR.COM".  In
addition, from within Ersatz-11, I am able to use the 5 1/4" HD drive
(in my case B: under Windows 98SE - the A: drive is 3.5" HD) as an
RX50 as well.  In addition, PUTR will even perform a hardware
low level FORMAT of the RX50 media.  I am not sure if this
FORMAT operation under PUTR is identical to what DEC would
produce on a Rainbow RX50 which can also FORMAT the RX50
floppy media, but in the past when I did so, they can be read and
written using a DEC RX50 under RT-11 on a DEC PDP-11/73.

The RX50 has 800 blocks on one side for a total of 409,600 bytes.
If I remember correctly, the geometry is 80 tracks with 10 sectors
per track of 512 bytes per sector.  Since the density is very similar
to a DD media from the PC, DEC was able to use that media on
the RX50.  But I think there are 96 tpi (which requires the HD drive
on the PC) rather than 48 tpi which is what the DD PC drive uses.

I I have any of the physical properties incorrect, I apologize.  I just
wanted to add a bit more information to the mix and note that
the RX50 media can be read and written on a PC, but MUST
use the HD 5 1/4" PC drives BUT with DD media 360K diskette
media - which is what the RX50 uses on the actual DEC drives.
I do not know if what the PC HD 5 1/4" 1.2 M drive using
DD 360K diskettes produces matches exactly what the actual
DEC  RX50 expects, but it does work in practice.

Jerome Fine


From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 06:08:37 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 13:08:37 +0200
Subject: Philips P800 family minis
In-Reply-To: <m1SbIjk-000J4mC@p850ug1>
References: <01c701cd41ba$b40c2630$1c247290$@gmail.com> from "Camiel
 Vanderhoeven" at Jun 3, 12 08:57:18 pm <m1SbIjk-000J4mC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <020401cd4242$649b8180$2dd28480$@gmail.com>

Hi Tony,
 
>> - 3 x P859 (one looks like the board set is incomplete)
> Am I right in thinking that his is related to the P854?

Yes, from what I've been able to glance from the manuals, the P859 is the
same as the P854, but build on large 19" rack sized cards (M-type cards)
rather than double eurocards (E-type cards)

>> - 1 x P856/P857? (no type label, marked "defect" in black marker on 
>> top) Aren't these supposed to have core memory? No core found inside.
> I thought so. Maybe that's why it's defective :-(
> FWIW, the P850 does use core memeory, but there are memory modules
(containg the core and drivers spearately fitted i nthe machine, it's not on
boards in the main crdcage. Is it possible you've missed the core in your
856?

No, there's no space for it to be anywhere else but in the main cardcage.
The rest of the box is occupied by the power supplies. Deeper inspection has
revealed that this system also doesn't have a CPU fitted. I do have spare
cpu's though, and it looks like they might be able to use MOS memory, too.

>> - 1 x card cage with 6 cards. No idea what this is yet.
> Maybe soem specail I/O unig. Philips appaer to ahve made a lot of realtime
I/O bords, ADCs, DACs, etc.

Turns out to be an expansion chassis that gives you space for 6 more cards.

Cheers,

Camiel



From camiel at camicom.com  Mon Jun  4 06:04:09 2012
From: camiel at camicom.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 13:04:09 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
Message-ID: <01ff01cd4241$c49ca4c0$4dd5ee40$@camicom.com>

I've completed a list of boards in the P800 haul:

 

CPU BOX 1 - labeled P859


.        CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859)


.        MCU3 : 5111 199 77442 (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially
populated))


.        2 x M128E : 5111 199 67592 (128Kx21 RAM)


.        MCU2 : 5111 199 78181 (Line printer, card reader control unit)


.        MTCU : 5111 199 72467 (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit)


.        2 x M128ES : 5111 199 58622 (128Kx21 RAM)


.        MCU3 : 5111 199 77444 (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially
populated))


.        AMA-8A : 5111 199 75318 (Asynchronous line multiplexer)


.        SLCU2 : 5111 199 69373 (Synchronous serial line control unit)

 

CPU BOX 2 - labeled P859


.        2 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859)


.        M128E : 5111 199 67592 (128Kx21 RAM)


.        MCU2 : 5111 199 78185 (Line printer, card reader control unit)


.        MCU2 : 5111 199 78186 (Line printer, card reader control unit)


.        MCU3 : 5111 199 77445 (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially
populated))


.        BIGD : 5111 199 73289 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller)


.        BIGD2A : 5111 199 57852 (Big disk)

 

The weirdness of Box 2 is - obviously - a second CPU in the same box. This
can't be right.

 

CPU BOX 3 - labeled P859


.        CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859)


.        M128E : 5111 199 67593 (128Kx21 RAM)


.        TIMER CARD : 4022 422 20091


.        ? : 4522 107 62304


.        CU-ADIOS : 8222 255 50942

 

Box 3 has three cards with part numbers in different series from the normal
5111 199 xxxxx

 

CPU BOX 4 - unlabeled, P856 type M4M box


.        2 x CDD : 5111 199 78176


.        CDD : 5111 199 78177


.        CDD : 5111 199 78178


.        2 x MCU3 : 5111 199 78198 (Paper tape, serial control unit fully
populated))


.        MMU : 5111 199 75183 (Memory Management Unit)


.        GPC : 5111 199 79382 (Custom card)

 

Box 4 just looks wrong. I don't know what the CDD cards are, but there
doesn't appear to be a CPU or memory in there. However, there are P856 CPU's
in the spare cards box, and I found references to the P856 being able to use
MOS memory as well as core, so all might not be lost here.

 

EXPANSION BOX - E2 type (6 slots)


.        BIGD2A : 5111 199 57852 (Big disk)


.        MTCU : 5111 199 72467 (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit)


.        BIGD : 5111 199 59755 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller)


.        MTCU : 5111 199 72462 (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit)


.        2 x MX : 5111 199 79335

 

CASSETTE BOX - P833

.        K7S2 : 5111 199 79329 (P833-152 Cassette Control Unit)

 

Combined with the spare M-format cards in the haul, the complete list of
boards is as follows:


.        ? : 4522 107 62304


.        AMA-8A : 5111 199 75318 (Asynchronous line multiplexer)


.        BIGD : 5111 199 59755 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller)


.        BIGD : 5111 199 73289 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller)


.        2 x BIGD2A : 5111 199 57852 (Big disk)


.        4 x CDD : 5111 199 7817X


.        2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859)


.        3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859)


.        CPB : 5111 199 74979 (P856 CPU)


.        CPB : 5111 199 76227 (P856 CPU?)


.        CPB / CP7B : 5111 199 63142 (P856 CPU?)


.        CU-ADIOS : 8222 255 50942


.        4 x F1MB : 5111 199 6742X (modified for  5.25" FDD)


.        3 x F1MB : 5111 199 67427 (8" Floppy disk controller)


.        F1MBY : 5111 199 58742 (Floppy disk controller)


.        FLDB : 5111 199 69667


.        GPC : 5111 199 79382 (Custom card)


.        2 x IOP : 5111 199 73185 (I/O Processor)


.        K7S2 : 5111 199 79329 (P833-152 Cassette Control Unit)


.        5 x M128E : 5111 199 6759X (128Kx21 RAM)


.        2 x M128ES : 5111 199 58622 (128Kx21 RAM)


.        3 x MCU2 : 5111 199 7818X (Line printer, card reader control unit)


.        5 x MCU3 : 5111 199 7744X (Paper tape, serial control unit
(partially populated))


.        2 x MCU3 : 5111 199 78198 (Paper tape, serial control unit fully
populated))


.        MMU : 5111 199 75183 (Memory Management Unit)


.        3 x MTCU : 5111 199 7246X (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control
unit)


.        2 x MX : 5111 199 79335


.        SLCU2 : 5111 199 69373 (Synchronous serial line control unit)


.        TIMER CARD : 4022 422 20091

 

Looks like I should be able to get a few systems going with these parts.
There's also a second box with spare cards, having different formats. Some
of these are double eurocard format, like those used in the P85xE systems.
There's also a spare power supply for a P859 box, as well as a spare power
supply for a P856 box.

 

I'm interested in finding out more about the cards I couldn't identify,
these are:


.        ? : 4522 107 62304


.        4 x CDD : 5111 199 7817X


.        FLDB : 5111 199 69667


.        2 x MX : 5111 199 79335


.        TIMER CARD : 4022 422 20091

 

I'm hoping CDD means Cartridge Disc Drive, and that these are the
controllers for the X1215 disk drives.

 

The 2 8" floppy disk drives are CDC BR8A8A type, looks like they are 800KB
double sided, double density drives. They're very dusty.

 

Kind regards,

 

Camiel Vanderhoeven

Camicom Software Services & Consulting

Tarthorst 1009

6708 JH Wageningen, The Netherlands

 

www.camicom.com | camiel at camicom.com | +31 (0)6 432 568 98

 



From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 08:42:30 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 15:42:30 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
Message-ID: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com>

I?ve completed a list of boards in the P800 haul:

CPU BOX 1 ? labeled P859
? CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859)
? MCU3 : 5111 199 77442 (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially
populated))
? 2 x M128E : 5111 199 67592 (128Kx21 RAM)
? MCU2 : 5111 199 78181 (Line printer, card reader control unit)
? MTCU : 5111 199 72467 (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit)
? 2 x M128ES : 5111 199 58622 (128Kx21 RAM)
? MCU3 : 5111 199 77444 (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially
populated))
? AMA-8A : 5111 199 75318 (Asynchronous line multiplexer)
? SLCU2 : 5111 199 69373 (Synchronous serial line control unit)

CPU BOX 2 ? labeled P859
? 2 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859)
? M128E : 5111 199 67592 (128Kx21 RAM)
? MCU2 : 5111 199 78185 (Line printer, card reader control unit)
? MCU2 : 5111 199 78186 (Line printer, card reader control unit)
? MCU3 : 5111 199 77445 (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially
populated))
? BIGD : 5111 199 73289 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller)
? BIGD2A : 5111 199 57852 (Big disk)

The weirdness of Box 2 is ? obviously ? a second CPU in the same box. This
can?t be right.

CPU BOX 3 ? labeled P859
? CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859)
? M128E : 5111 199 67593 (128Kx21 RAM)
? TIMER CARD : 4022 422 20091
? ? : 4522 107 62304
? CU-ADIOS : 8222 255 50942

Box 3 has three cards with part numbers in different series from the normal
5111 199 xxxxx

CPU BOX 4 ? unlabeled, P856 type M4M box
? 2 x CDD : 5111 199 78176
? CDD : 5111 199 78177
? CDD : 5111 199 78178
? 2 x MCU3 : 5111 199 78198 (Paper tape, serial control unit fully
populated))
? MMU : 5111 199 75183 (Memory Management Unit)
? GPC : 5111 199 79382 (Custom card)

Box 4 just looks wrong. I don?t know what the CDD cards are, but there
doesn?t appear to be a CPU or memory in there. However, there are P856 CPU?s
in the spare cards box, and I found references to the P856 being able to use
MOS memory as well as core, so all might not be lost here.

EXPANSION BOX ? E2 type (6 slots)
? BIGD2A : 5111 199 57852 (Big disk)
? MTCU : 5111 199 72467 (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit)
? BIGD : 5111 199 59755 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller)
? MTCU : 5111 199 72462 (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit)
? 2 x MX : 5111 199 79335

CASSETTE BOX ? P833
? K7S2 : 5111 199 79329 (P833-152 Cassette Control Unit)

Combined with the spare M-format cards in the haul, the complete list of
boards is as follows:
? ? : 4522 107 62304
? AMA-8A : 5111 199 75318 (Asynchronous line multiplexer)
? BIGD : 5111 199 59755 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller)
? BIGD : 5111 199 73289 (Big disk (40/80MB CDC) controller)
? 2 x BIGD2A : 5111 199 57852 (Big disk)
? 4 x CDD : 5111 199 7817X
? 2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859)
? 3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859)
? CPB : 5111 199 74979 (P856 CPU)
? CPB : 5111 199 76227 (P856 CPU?)
? CPB / CP7B : 5111 199 63142 (P856 CPU?)
? CU-ADIOS : 8222 255 50942
? 4 x F1MB : 5111 199 6742X (modified for? 5.25" FDD)
? 3 x F1MB : 5111 199 67427 (8" Floppy disk controller)
? F1MBY : 5111 199 58742 (Floppy disk controller)
? FLDB : 5111 199 69667
? GPC : 5111 199 79382 (Custom card)
? 2 x IOP : 5111 199 73185 (I/O Processor)
? K7S2 : 5111 199 79329 (P833-152 Cassette Control Unit)
? 5 x M128E : 5111 199 6759X (128Kx21 RAM)
? 2 x M128ES : 5111 199 58622 (128Kx21 RAM)
? 3 x MCU2 : 5111 199 7818X (Line printer, card reader control unit)
? 5 x MCU3 : 5111 199 7744X (Paper tape, serial control unit (partially
populated))
? 2 x MCU3 : 5111 199 78198 (Paper tape, serial control unit fully
populated))
? MMU : 5111 199 75183 (Memory Management Unit)
? 3 x MTCU : 5111 199 7246X (Pertec 9 track magnetic tape control unit)
? 2 x MX : 5111 199 79335
? SLCU2 : 5111 199 69373 (Synchronous serial line control unit)
? TIMER CARD : 4022 422 20091

Looks like I should be able to get a few systems going with these parts.
There?s also a second box with spare cards, having different formats. Some
of these are double eurocard format, like those used in the P85xE systems.
There?s also a spare power supply for a P859 box, as well as a spare power
supply for a P856 box.

I?m interested in finding out more about the cards I couldn?t identify,
these are:
? ? : 4522 107 62304
? 4 x CDD : 5111 199 7817X
? FLDB : 5111 199 69667
? 2 x MX : 5111 199 79335
? TIMER CARD : 4022 422 20091

I?m hoping CDD means Cartridge Disc Drive, and that these are the
controllers for the X1215 disk drives.

The 2 8? floppy disk drives are CDC BR8A8A type, looks like they are 800KB
double sided, double density drives. They?re very dusty.

Cheers,

Camiel




From mtapley at swri.edu  Mon Jun  4 09:00:16 2012
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:00:16 -0500
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...)
Message-ID: <p06240800cbf2631a9d0c@[192.168.1.108]>

At 17:01 -0500 5/23/12, ARD wrote:
>OS9 is so modular that there would be no problem in writing the device
>manager and device drivers for a netwoek drvice. I think ethernet would
>have had far to high a data rate, but there are plenty of slower
>alternatices.

Sorry for delayed response, vacation intervened.

http://www.cloud9tech.com/ (no affiliation, other than as a highly 
satisfied customer) does market DriveWire for the CoCo3 running 
NitrOS-9. I have not (yet) used it, but they claim 115,200 bps on a 
CoCo3. There is a corresponding server that runs on the (Windows/Mac 
OS X/Linux) other end of the serial wire, and they claim TCP/IP and 
several dependent services (telnet, MIDI streaming to the server). So 
Tony's suggestion more or less already exists, with the assumption 
that you don't mind a modern-ish PC acting as an external ethernet 
<-> serial adaptor.

-- 
						- Mark     210-379-4635
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Large Asteroids headed toward planets
inhabited by beings that don't have
technology adequate to stop them:

				Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward.


From ajp166 at verizon.net  Mon Jun  4 09:15:51 2012
From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 10:15:51 -0400
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net>

On 06/04/2012 04:54 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote:
>> A DD track is about 1/3mm wide, and spaced about 1/2mm apart (48 tpi)
>> An HD track is about 1/6mm wide, and spaced about 1/4mm apart (96tpi)
>
> How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I have enough 96tpi "DD" 
> drives. I think you mix up track density and recording density, two 
> unrelated things.
>
> Christian
>

There are two common track density 48 and 96 tpi or otherwise said
40 and 80 cylinders.  there are more tracks/cylinders to the radial inch.
Also the head width is narrower by two for the 96tpi.

Recording density is experssed in FRPI Flux Reversals per Inch.

The problem with floppies is that for 5.25 you had:

for 48tpi:
   Single sided 40 track FM (about 80k)
   Single sided  40 track  MFM (about 160K)
   Two sided 40 track  MFM (about 160k)
   Two sided 40 track MFM  (about 360k)

for 96tpi:
   Single sided 80 track FM (about 180k)
   Single sided  80 track  MFM (about 360K)
   Two sided 80 track  MFM (about 360k)
   Two sided 80 track MFM  (about 720k)

for 96tpi, HD:
   Two sided 80 track double data rate MFM  (about 1.2M)

The problem is that marketing named them!
so we have single density, double density, quad density
(mostly seen in the cp//m world), and HD never mind the
sector size variations and layout.

I also left out the oddball drives like 35track and 100tpi.

Allison


From jon at jonworld.com  Mon Jun  4 09:44:14 2012
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:44:14 -0400
Subject: Vintage Apple Gear
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+21hca7RzKyz0-+J0CcQi4WifRkfNdhNzomv+7gXebm5Q@mail.gmail.com>

I saw this locally on craigslist and thought someone may be
interested. I have 0 connection with the seller...

http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/sys/3028122746.html

-- 
-Jon
Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN.


From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Jun  4 09:45:24 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 07:45:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...)
In-Reply-To: <p06240800cbf2631a9d0c@[192.168.1.108]> from Mark Tapley at "Jun
 4, 12 09:00:16 am"
Message-ID: <201206041445.q54EjOmR13369530@floodgap.com>

> > OS9 is so modular that there would be no problem in writing the device
> > manager and device drivers for a netwoek drvice. I think ethernet would
> > have had far to high a data rate, but there are plenty of slower
> > alternatices.
> 
> Sorry for delayed response, vacation intervened.
> 
> http://www.cloud9tech.com/ (no affiliation, other than as a highly 
> satisfied customer) does market DriveWire for the CoCo3 running 
> NitrOS-9. I have not (yet) used it, but they claim 115,200 bps on a 
> CoCo3. There is a corresponding server that runs on the (Windows/Mac 
> OS X/Linux) other end of the serial wire, and they claim TCP/IP and 
> several dependent services (telnet, MIDI streaming to the server). So 
> Tony's suggestion more or less already exists, with the assumption 
> that you don't mind a modern-ish PC acting as an external ethernet 
> <-> serial adaptor.

Is this SLIP or PPP?

In the simpler category, devices like a Lantronix UDS-10 are a great
fit for old machines. The UDS-10 is limited to one open TCP socket, but
it is easy to drive using a modified Hayes command set and does not
require running a TCP/IP stack on the client machine.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. -- Beethoven -------------------


From nico at farumdata.dk  Mon Jun  4 10:29:49 2012
From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico at farumdata.dk)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 17:29:49 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <01ff01cd4241$c49ca4c0$4dd5ee40$@camicom.com>
References: <01ff01cd4241$c49ca4c0$4dd5ee40$@camicom.com>
Message-ID: <3aca2f116816d09f579aeca71d946993.squirrel@farumdata.dk>

>
> CPU BOX 4 - unlabeled, P856 type M4M box
>
>
> .        2 x CDD : 5111 199 78176
>
>
> .        CDD : 5111 199 78177
>
>
> .        CDD : 5111 199 78178
>
>
> .        2 x MCU3 : 5111 199 78198 (Paper tape, serial control unit fully
> populated))
>
>
> .        MMU : 5111 199 75183 (Memory Management Unit)
>
>
> .        GPC : 5111 199 79382 (Custom card)
>
>
>
> Box 4 just looks wrong. I don't know what the CDD cards are, but there
> doesn't appear to be a CPU or memory in there. However, there are P856
> CPU's
> in the spare cards box, and I found references to the P856 being able to
> use
> MOS memory as well as core, so all might not be lost here.
>

In the p6000 system, we also had a MMU unit. It could be used for
expanding the basic memory above 32 KB, but also for relieving the main
unit. It frequently happened that the power supply in the main unit could
not deliver the necessary Amps, so a fully loaded main unit was a rare
sight. In those cases we used the MMU for the remaining cards. As far as I
remember, it accomodated extra 32 KB, a tape card and a SDLC/3780 card
/Nico




From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Mon Jun  4 11:00:38 2012
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 18:00:38 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com>
References: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCCDBA6.7030408@bluewin.ch>

On 06/04/2012 03:42 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
> I?ve completed a list of boards in the P800 haul:


Very nice haul indeed...
My P856 has one CPU PCB, and one 32kx16 core memory on a single PCB ( drivers, X & Y , sense all one one board )
Date code is 1980, the newest core memory I have.
> ? FLDB : 5111 199 69667

This is the 8" floppy drive interface, you should be able to run a 50-wire flatcable directly to the drive.

Regards, Jos


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun  4 11:07:38 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:07:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <20120604080734.C95864@shell.lmi.net>

> How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I have enough 96tpi "DD"
> drives. I think you mix up track density and recording density, two
> unrelated things.

You make an important, but IRRELEVANT point.
I am cognizant of the differences, and the sloppiness of the terminology,
and CHOSE to attempt to reply to the original poster using the
terminology that he had used.  I do have sample diskettes from hundreds
of machines with 96tpi "DD" drives; unfortunately, unlike Don Maslin's
collection, few are "boot" disks.
http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html

Every variant of the terminology that we have available for these systems
still permits somebody to deliberately mininterpret what is being said, or
make an honest misteak in interpretation, just by having been
concentrating on some other part of the elephant.


OK, YOU explain to the original poster why he will or will not have
problems writing Kaypro2, Apple2, Commodore diskettes using the "1.2M"
drive from an IBM 5170.  He will need to know about coercivity, LATER,
when he selects blank media to use.  But, right now, for selesting which
DRIVE to mount in the case, he does NOT need to be concerned with flux
transition rate, disk total capacity, options of alternate physical
formats, or variant exceptions to the "standard" formats.

The issue for the original poster was whether he should use a "DD"  drive
or an "HD" drive.  Those were HIS terms.  HE was not referring with "DD
drive"  to a 96 track per inch 80 cylinder Modified Frequency Modulated
300 Revolutions per Minute 250,000 bits per second data transfer rate
drive.  It is too cumbersome to fully identify each drive type by its full
set of specs, so we use shorter, albeit potentially ambiguous, terms.
YES, "DD drive" can refer to several other things, but was it not
possible, if one wanted to, to understand what he meant?

We assume that what he meant what could [even MORE sloppily, but with less
confusion] be called a "360K drive from a 5150" OR a "1.2M drive from a
5170", (along with a "1.4M" 3.5"  drive).  It does NOT add any clarity to
point out that that first drive could be used for formats ranging from
about 60K to about 440K - it is SIMPLER to refer to it by its most common
usage (>99% of all of them!) for 360K.  Is it really necessary to include
5150 and 5170 in those names?  Apparently, YES - since although there was
a 100 to 1 ratio of their usage, many here will tout their exceptions, as
if they were the "norm". Likewise, it does not add any clarity to point
out that it is ALSO possible to have 360K on a single sided 80 cylinder
system.  THOSE ARE IRRELEVANT to what the original poster is trying to
find out.  Although, YES, they are interesting and much more FUN variants.
We could also do as NeXT did, and refer to the drive by its UNFORMATTED
capaciy, if we wanted to further mislead.

It is still subject to DELIBERATE misinterpretation, but anybody who WANTS
to understand, knows what is meant by "360K" and "1.2M" drive. YES, I had
5170s with 100tpi single sided drives, 67.5 (V usual 135tpi) 40 track 3.5
inch drives, 3", 3.25", floptical, LS120, 1.2M 8" drives, 1.4M 3.4" drives
interfaced serial (RS232), parallel ("Centronics"), "IDE", and SCSI.
My first 5150 ended up with 2 "360K" (SA455) drives, a "720K 5.25" (55F),
a "720K 3.5" (350), an 8" (848 external) and a "1.4M 3.5" (Microsolutions
"Backpack" external). One of the 455s had the write protect jumper
reversed, so that it could write no-nothch diskettes (for software
duplication) but would default to write-protected for ordinatry
"unprotected" diskettes.  NONE of this paragraph of irrelevant crap helps
the original poster, in any way shape or form, with his simple question of
which of two drives he should mount in the enclosure.


Another poster pointed out that the original poster had referred to his
diskettes as FDDs, and asked how you copy a Floppy Disk Drive.  Being from
a "Fantasia" generation, I can't help but visualize Mickey Mouse as The
Sorcerer's Apprentice.  When it came time to move out of my office, I had
to sweep up LOTS of FDDs that had multiplied.  I was going to say "tons",
but that might not be accurate - a metric buttload.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com




From db at db.net  Mon Jun  4 11:09:14 2012
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 11:09:14 -0500
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...)
In-Reply-To: <201206041445.q54EjOmR13369530@floodgap.com>
References: <p06240800cbf2631a9d0c@[192.168.1.108]>
 <201206041445.q54EjOmR13369530@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <20120604160914.GB71830@night.db.net>

On Mon, Jun 04, 2012 at 07:45:24AM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
> > > OS9 is so modular that there would be no problem in writing the device
> > > manager and device drivers for a netwoek drvice. I think ethernet would

I wrote a device manager and device driver years ago to give me pseudo
ttys on a OS9 machine. I also had written a RAMDISK driver for OS9 I
it was obsoleted by OS9 II.

Fond memories.

> > > have had far to high a data rate, but there are plenty of slower
> > > alternatices.
> > 
> > Sorry for delayed response, vacation intervened.
> > 
> > http://www.cloud9tech.com/ (no affiliation, other than as a highly 
> > satisfied customer) does market DriveWire for the CoCo3 running 

Cool !

> > NitrOS-9. I have not (yet) used it, but they claim 115,200 bps on a 
...
> 
..

- Diane
-- 
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db
  Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth?


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun  4 11:14:10 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:14:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>
 <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20120604091046.O95864@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Allison wrote:
> There are two common track density 48 and 96 tpi or otherwise said
> 40 and 80 cylinders.  there are more tracks/cylinders to the radial inch.
> Also the head width is narrower by two for the 96tpi.
> . . .
> . . .
an excellent and accurate summary!

> The problem is that marketing named them!

That is SO true!

> so we have single density, double density, quad density

. . . and the marketing at Intertec (Superbrain) chose to call the double
sided quad-density, "SUPER DENSITY"!  (abbreviated "SD"!!!!)  It was as
though they wanted to misunderstand.




From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Jun  4 11:31:45 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 09:31:45 -0700
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>,
 <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4FCC8081.8086.96C3B@cclist.sydex.com>

On 4 Jun 2012 at 10:15, Allison wrote:

> The problem is that marketing named them!
> so we have single density, double density, quad density
> (mostly seen in the cp//m world), and HD never mind the
> sector size variations and layout.
> 
> I also left out the oddball drives like 35track and 100tpi.

To some extent, the problem also exists in 3.5" drives.  Original 
3.5" drives, such as the Sony 0AD, recorded with a track spacing at 
67.5 tpi, rather than today's 135 tpi.    Fortunately, most people 
just want to read the old media, not write it.

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun  4 12:04:53 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:04:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCC8081.8086.96C3B@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>,
 <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net> <4FCC8081.8086.96C3B@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20120604095856.A95864@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> To some extent, the problem also exists in 3.5" drives.  Original 3.5"
> drives, such as the Sony 0AD, recorded with a track spacing at 67.5 tpi,
> rather than today's 135 tpi.  Fortunately, most people just want to read
> the old media, not write it.

Some of those early SOny drives spun at 600 RPM, and used a 500K dtr,
resulting in the same capacity and diskette format [as the 300RPM/20Kdtr),
but complete hardware incompatability.

The Epson Geneva PX-8 used a 40cylinder 3.5"; I have an Epson 67.5tpi
drive.


3.5" had a few recording deviations - Barium-ferrite disks and 2.8M,
floptical, etc.


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 12:08:32 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 13:08:32 -0400
Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog
 DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07
In-Reply-To: <20120604054519.GC76345@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <CAALmimkVvD8zH=cOM8+t0nim+r3p+DsNSxKGcsMzhAzBWPTjRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ4ycS0Lcv1tQdZ7uT+v_khgtJ0OYPm7WcKmQd6S_Erjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmWhMA_Y4bK9A6v656xEdWv07uXnwih7Qu0NnziY43t3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmS3uzre5H3Kq5WeJhe-OxiwUQQaGJRCMNL9T_iZun2SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120604054519.GC76345@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAALmimniucLg_65MG3bv2aUG+OGWhTQfysR_xQ8pDSF7MF0RSg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 1:45 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> There is a manual for the UC07/08 on the net, it is one of the first hits
> when you try to google.

Right.  Found that with no problems, though their own docs describe
the UC07 as a quad-height Unibus card - I'm sure that's just an
ancient cut-and-paste error.

All the settings are in there; that's the important part.  I can check
if it's strapped to share the bus with an RQDX3, a common arrangement
(to keep the floppies active).  I think that would make the first
drive on this card DUB0: when booting to VMS, but ultimately, except
for typing habits, it doesn't matter what the drive name ends up as.

> Haven't found anything regarding differences
> between versions jet....

I would be interested to hear any stories or if anyone happens to have
Release Notes or ECO sheets for different ROM versions.  ISTR the
processor on this is an 8031, so it's not impossible to decompile and
diff the different ROM versions, but it's probably not worth the time.

>> I'm guessing there isn't a lot of info out there to attempt to see if
>> it's possible to "convert" an SQ3703A to an SQ3706A in the field, but
>> if anyone knows anything about both boards, I'd be game to try if it's
>> EPROMs or PALs or whatever.
>
> Found almost nothing for them.

Me either - just 3rd party and eBay sellers (with some listings under $100).

> I have a board LAbeled SQ703 where the 03 is on a paper label and the SQ7
> is printed on the board. Have repaired it sometime, it is working as TMSCP
> controller. It has an 10pin Connector for an Terminal to set it up on the
> Interface connector side. I remember that I put the rom image from a 706 on
> it (shadoo sent me one) but it doesn't work as 706.

Shame it isn't that easy, but I rather expect it's a ROM and PAL
difference, since MSCP and TMSCP controllers use different address
ranges.  Any differences in SCSI command sets from tape to disk drives
would be a firmware issues; any differences in bus interaction would
be (mostly?) PAL issues.

> I know that there is a 739 that can make both, MSCP and TMSCP...

Right.  Just like the 3703A and 3706A were replaced by the more flexible 3709A.

Since I don't _need_ SCSI TMSCP, it reduces my interest in laying
hands on a BA4000-type chassis.  I do have that KDJ11 with the S-box
handles, so I'm more likely to mod that than go with an S-box (I have
a stash of real DEC Qbus handles from the place where we made Qbus and
Unibus boards)

-ethan


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun  4 12:13:36 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:13:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCC9752.6080701@compsys.to>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <1338767569.23426.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20120603174242.W67443@shell.lmi.net> <4FCC9752.6080701@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <20120604100732.F95864@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
> Just to add some complexity (or perhaps some confusion) to the situation,
> the RX50 from DEC uses DD floppy media, but if I remember correctly,
> has 96 tpi.  I know that on a PC, the HD drive is used to read and WRITE
> the RX50 floppy media using John Wilson's program "PUTR.COM".  In

Yes, you want use the "1.2M" ("dual mode") drive in 96tpi stepping, but
but with "DD" (MFM,300RPM,250Kdtr) read/write.  SOME of the 1.2M drives
refuse to do that, and INSIST on switching to 48tpi when in the "low
density" mode.

> The RX50 has 800 blocks on one side for a total of 409,600 bytes.
> If I remember correctly, the geometry is 80 tracks with 10 sectors
> per track of 512 bytes per sector.  Since the density is very similar
> to a DD media from the PC, DEC was able to use that media on
> the RX50.  But I think there are 96 tpi (which requires the HD drive
> on the PC) rather than 48 tpi which is what the DD PC drive uses.

right
96tpi "DD" is a drive that IBM never used in USA PCs.  Outside of USA,
PC/JX model used it.
Such drives (Teac 55F, SA465, etc.) can be easily connected to a PC for
non-PC disk formats.

> I I have any of the physical properties incorrect, I apologize.  I just
> wanted to add a bit more information to the mix and note that
> the RX50 media can be read and written on a PC, but MUST
> use the HD 5 1/4" PC drives BUT with DD media 360K diskette
> media - which is what the RX50 uses on the actual DEC drives.
> I do not know if what the PC HD 5 1/4" 1.2 M drive using
> DD 360K diskettes produces matches exactly what the actual
> DEC  RX50 expects, but it does work in practice.

It should.


From doc at vaxen.net  Mon Jun  4 12:35:48 2012
From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 12:35:48 -0500
Subject: Apple I on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206011927480.15592@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <4FCB3202.21991.94BC5A@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <CANij+ddNXcb4_L0wBQtTP8U6uX0_-1nzfC0=-F+8mKNVmLX4NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCB3E7E.17724.C58118@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FCCF1F4.7010503@vaxen.net>

On 6/3/12 12:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> I have  a tuba and tried to sell it for a time and got almost no
> interest.  After I turned up a photo of Arnold Jacobs (late of the
> Chicago Symphony) playing it, there was a flood of interest.
>
> Mind you, the tuba hadn't changed.

Devil's Advocate:
   No, but if I wanted a really good tuba and believed that individual 
instruments vary in quality, even in the same model and lot, then the 
fact that Mr. Jacobs found it good would carry considerable weight.

Truth:
   I don't get the "star factor" at all, but it's a bankable reality. 
Just consider the huge market for adult film actress's used underwear. 
Or don't....


	Doc


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun  4 12:37:49 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 10:37:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <20120604100732.F95864@shell.lmi.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <1338767569.23426.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20120603174242.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
 <4FCC9752.6080701@compsys.to> <20120604100732.F95864@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <20120604103429.O95864@shell.lmi.net>

> Yes, you want use the "1.2M" ("dual mode") drive in 96tpi stepping, but
> but with "DD" (MFM,300RPM,250Kdtr) read/write.  SOME of the 1.2M drives
> refuse to do that, and INSIST on switching to 48tpi when in the "low
> density" mode.

. . . and, . . .

some "12.M" drives do their "360K" mode as 360RPM with 300Kdata transfer
rate;
some do 300RPM with 250K dtr (the way "360k" drives write "DD")

So, there can be further complications with both computer and drive.


From legalize at xmission.com  Mon Jun  4 12:43:32 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 11:43:32 -0600
Subject: Tekniques vol1-8 online (Tektronix 405x newsletter)
Message-ID: <E1SbbJU-0007pl-G2@shell.xmission.com>

Some time ago I obtained a batch of the Tektronix 4050 series
newsletter issues.  I have scanned these and Al has put them up on
bitsavers: <http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/tekniques/>

I've also scanned a software catalog for 4050 series:
<http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/405x/Supplementary_Software_and_Services_4050_Series_1980.pdf>

I have some other Tekniques related items, but they are collections of
reprints of articles from specific issues of Tekniques that I've
already scanned above, so I considered it redundant.

The last issue I had was vol. 8, no. 1.  I do not know if there were
other issues after that.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Jun  4 12:45:56 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 10:45:56 -0700
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <20120604095856.A95864@shell.lmi.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
 <4FCC8081.8086.96C3B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120604095856.A95864@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com>

On 4 Jun 2012 at 10:04, Fred Cisin wrote:
 
> 3.5" had a few recording deviations - Barium-ferrite disks and 2.8M,
> floptical, etc.

Yeah, "DSED" - a huge flop.  Then the various flopticals - 3M, Caleb, 
Brier...  All mutually incompatible, no matter how similar they 
appear to be.

5.25" had the Drivetec/Kodak in various flavors.  Fortunately, 
formatting isn't an issue, because the end-user can't.  Another of 
those wonderful ideas that product development doesn't perceive as a 
liability.

--Chuck
 




From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Jun  4 14:19:31 2012
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 21:19:31 +0200
Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog
 DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimniucLg_65MG3bv2aUG+OGWhTQfysR_xQ8pDSF7MF0RSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkVvD8zH=cOM8+t0nim+r3p+DsNSxKGcsMzhAzBWPTjRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ4ycS0Lcv1tQdZ7uT+v_khgtJ0OYPm7WcKmQd6S_Erjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmWhMA_Y4bK9A6v656xEdWv07uXnwih7Qu0NnziY43t3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmS3uzre5H3Kq5WeJhe-OxiwUQQaGJRCMNL9T_iZun2SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120604054519.GC76345@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAALmimniucLg_65MG3bv2aUG+OGWhTQfysR_xQ8pDSF7MF0RSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120604191931.GB25382@beast.freibergnet.de>

Ethan Dicks wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 1:45 AM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> > There is a manual for the UC07/08 on the net, it is one of the first hits
> > when you try to google.
> 
> Right.  Found that with no problems, though their own docs describe
> the UC07 as a quad-height Unibus card - I'm sure that's just an
> ancient cut-and-paste error.
> 
> All the settings are in there; that's the important part.  I can check
> if it's strapped to share the bus with an RQDX3, a common arrangement
> (to keep the floppies active).  I think that would make the first
> drive on this card DUB0: when booting to VMS, but ultimately, except
> for typing habits, it doesn't matter what the drive name ends up as.

Don't know for now, but it should be possible to jumper the RQDX3 as 2nd
MSCP Controller to...
> 
> > Haven't found anything regarding differences
> > between versions jet....
> 
> I would be interested to hear any stories or if anyone happens to have
> Release Notes or ECO sheets for different ROM versions.  ISTR the
> processor on this is an 8031, so it's not impossible to decompile and
> diff the different ROM versions, but it's probably not worth the time.
> 
> >> I'm guessing there isn't a lot of info out there to attempt to see if
> >> it's possible to "convert" an SQ3703A to an SQ3706A in the field, but
> >> if anyone knows anything about both boards, I'd be game to try if it's
> >> EPROMs or PALs or whatever.
> >
> > Found almost nothing for them.
> 
> Me either - just 3rd party and eBay sellers (with some listings under $100).

This is, since there seems to be no easy way to convert them to MSCP.
Like you most people don't need an TMSCP SCSI Controller. I'm using them in
conjunction with some Tandberg quarter Inch drives, have install tapes
build with simh for RSX11M, RT11, XXDP ans 2.11 BSD and I'm using this to
transfer data between the simh on my unix pc and the PDP11s.
> 
> > I have a board LAbeled SQ703 where the 03 is on a paper label and the SQ7
> > is printed on the board. Have repaired it sometime, it is working as TMSCP
> > controller. It has an 10pin Connector for an Terminal to set it up on the
> > Interface connector side. I remember that I put the rom image from a 706 on
> > it (shadoo sent me one) but it doesn't work as 706.
> 
> Shame it isn't that easy, but I rather expect it's a ROM and PAL
> difference, since MSCP and TMSCP controllers use different address
> ranges.  Any differences in SCSI command sets from tape to disk drives
> would be a firmware issues; any differences in bus interaction would
> be (mostly?) PAL issues.

I don't looked that cwclose to that board that I could say how the address
decoder is made. It could be an register written by firmware and a
comparator too, this isn't much more hassle as an programmed Pal (but I
remember that I have seen many of them on that board).
> 
> > I know that there is a 739 that can make both, MSCP and TMSCP...
> 
> Right.  Just like the 3703A and 3706A were replaced by the more flexible 3709A.

...Ahh...The SQ3703 has SBOX Handles?
> 
> Since I don't _need_ SCSI TMSCP, it reduces my interest in laying
> hands on a BA4000-type chassis.  I do have that KDJ11 with the S-box
> handles, so I'm more likely to mod that than go with an S-box (I have
> a stash of real DEC Qbus handles from the place where we made Qbus and
> Unibus boards)
> 
> -ethan

I don't have an BA4000, got an DELQA sometimes from Ebay and removed the
SBOX Handles to put it in a straight 11.
You don't have some of the QBus Hanldes left over? May be you remember that
we build some punched universal Boards lately.. (Arghh, forgot the right
description AGAIN).

Have a KA630 with memory laying around too, but an PDP11 is more fun for me
(don't know why). iBut I had Quasiarus running on the KA630.
If I want VMS I'm booting the VS4000/90...

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 14:35:34 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 15:35:34 -0400
Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog
 DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07
In-Reply-To: <20120604191931.GB25382@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <CAALmimkVvD8zH=cOM8+t0nim+r3p+DsNSxKGcsMzhAzBWPTjRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ4ycS0Lcv1tQdZ7uT+v_khgtJ0OYPm7WcKmQd6S_Erjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmWhMA_Y4bK9A6v656xEdWv07uXnwih7Qu0NnziY43t3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmS3uzre5H3Kq5WeJhe-OxiwUQQaGJRCMNL9T_iZun2SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120604054519.GC76345@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAALmimniucLg_65MG3bv2aUG+OGWhTQfysR_xQ8pDSF7MF0RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120604191931.GB25382@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=mDqJQkqjKEpfusRLjg1WXCsgzWU_2jnW1qYf82Xm6zQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> Don't know for now, but it should be possible to jumper the RQDX3 as 2nd
> MSCP Controller to...

It is, but then the boot ROMs can't boot up Standalone Backup for installs.

> This is, since there seems to be no easy way to convert them to MSCP.
> Like you most people don't need an TMSCP SCSI Controller. I'm using them in
> conjunction with some Tandberg quarter Inch drives, have install tapes
> build with simh for RSX11M, RT11, XXDP ans 2.11 BSD and I'm using this to
> transfer data between the simh on my unix pc and the PDP11s.

Right, but to most people, including me, that's a secondary use.
Everybody needs disk interfaces.

>> Shame it isn't that easy, but I rather expect it's a ROM and PAL
>> difference
>
> I don't looked that cwclose to that board that I could say how the address
> decoder is made. It could be an register written by firmware and a
> comparator too, this isn't much more hassle as an programmed Pal (but I
> remember that I have seen many of them on that board).

There are at least half-a-dozen PALs.  It shouldn't take long to
figure out what goes with what - not exact down-to-the-gate-level
reverse engineering, but at least functional grouping would be quick
to do.

>> > I know that there is a 739 that can make both, MSCP and TMSCP...
>>
>> Right. ?Just like the 3703A and 3706A were replaced by the more flexible 3709A.
>
> ...Ahh...The SQ3703 has SBOX Handles?

Yes.

> You don't have some of the QBus Hanldes left over? May be you remember that
> we build some punched universal Boards lately.. (Arghh, forgot the right
> description AGAIN).

I have a few, not hundreds.  I have a lot more hex-height handles for
Unibus (and other) cards.

> Have a KA630 with memory laying around too, but an PDP11 is more fun for me
> (don't know why).

I enjoy playing on PDP-11s, but the 64K process limit is a bit much
for serious work.  I've done _real_ work on VAXen.

> If I want VMS I'm booting the VS4000/90...

Right.  I only recently got a slower (/60?) VAXstation 4000.  Prior to
that, I was struggling to get the SCSI patched ROMs and driver onto a
VAXstation 2000.  I never did get that working.  I still have a lot of
the VS2000 hardware including the 8-port expansion and an external MFM
drive cable set.  Only one ethernet option, sadly.  I keep meaning to
test and box up most of my VS2000 hardware and sell off the stuff I
don't need, but other more important things keep me from getting it
all together.  Before MicroVAX3100s and VAXstation4000s got cheap and
available, the MicroVAX2000 was the only way to get a small VAX at
home for under $1000.  That's been a few years, though.  ;-)

-ethan



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun  4 13:21:18 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:21:18 +0100 (BST)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu> from
 "David Griffith" at Jun 3, 12 04:19:59 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sbbu8-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> 
> 
> I'm pondering putting 3.5" and 5.25" floppy drives in a single chassis 
> along with a Discferret / Kryoflux.  The 3.5" can be HD with no problem. 
> I'm leery of the complications of DD versus HD 5.25" drives.  If I 
> bulk-erase a DD disk and write to it with an HD drive, might there be any 
> problems when the disk is used again on a DD drive?  Would simply 
> formatting the DD disk be enough?

I am assumign that you are going to use the HD drive in DD mode, that is 
at the lower write current. In which case the difference is the number of 
cylinders, and thus that the 80 cylinder 'HD' drive writes a narrower track 
than a true 40 cylinder 'DD' one.

The rules is that if you write with an 80 cylinder drive to a disk that 
was previosuly written ona 40 cylinder drive (this includes formatting in 
both cases), then there could be problems reading it on a 40 cylinder 
drive, because the narrower head of the 80 cylidner drive will only 
rewrite the middle part of the track, so the wider 40 cylidner head will 
see a mix of the old and new data.

So  : 

Bulk erase a disk, format it o nthe 80 cylidner drive, write to it on the 
80 cylinder drive and it'll be readable on a 40 cylinder drive. You can 
even write to it there without prolbmes. But if you do write ot in o nthe 
40 cylinder drive, do not then write to it on an 80 cylinder drive.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun  4 13:23:05 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:23:05 +0100 (BST)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCB92E7.10019.20F397B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 3, 12 04:37:59 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sbbvq-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

> The magnetic characteristics of 5.25" media are very different 
> between 2D and HD recording modes.   I wouldn't recommend mixing 
> things up.  2D on 2D media; HD on HD media.

Ture enough. But I assumed he as goign to be useing a PC-type HD drive 
(lik the original IBM 1/2M drive) and thus would be using the correct 
write crurent. In which case the coercivity difference is catered for.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun  4 13:26:09 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:26:09 +0100 (BST)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 3, 12 05:17:38 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sbbyo-000J4cC@p850ug1>

> Obviously, "HD" means something different to me--500kbit/sec MFM data 
> rate at 360 RPM recording, versus 250kbit/sec  MFM data rate at 300 
> RPM.

No, I'll agree with that. But most 'HD' drives are reakky 'HD capable' 
drives and can also be switeched (pin 2, isn't it?) to correctly write to DD 
media. The only remaining problem is the track width.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun  4 13:49:07 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:49:07 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041050100.8488@linuxserv.home> from
 "Christian Corti" at Jun 4, 12 10:51:01 am
Message-ID: <m1SbcL2-000J4hC@p850ug1>

> How does one copy a Floppy Disk Drive? ;-)

I would think by using measuring tools on the parts of the 'source' drive 
and then using machien tools, metal casting facilities, injection 
moulding machines, PCB fabrictiaon, soldering irons, etc to make said 
parts and aseemble the 'destination' drive.

[could not resist]

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun  4 13:55:53 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:55:53 +0100 (BST)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <01ff01cd4241$c49ca4c0$4dd5ee40$@camicom.com> from "Camiel
 Vanderhoeven" at Jun 4, 12 01:04:09 pm
Message-ID: <m1SbcRb-000J4iC@p850ug1>

> .        2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859)
> 
> 
> .        3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859)

What technology does this CPU use? 2900 bit-slice, ASICs, or what? The 
P854 CPU is 3 cards, I think, one of which is the MMU (and one of the 
others an IOP?, I would have to check the manuals). The P851 CPU is a 
signle board, using Philips bitslice ICs...


> .        3 x MCU2 : 5111 199 7818X (Line printer, card reader control unit)
> 
> 
> .        5 x MCU3 : 5111 199 7744X (Paper tape, serial control unit
> (partially populated))

You might find the P851 tech mnaul Vol 2 is useful here. 

> I'm hoping CDD means Cartridge Disc Drive, and that these are the
> controllers for the X1215 disk drives.

Althoguh I don't have the drive, I think I have the X1215 controlelr in 
my P854. From what I rememebr it's got an 8X305 chip on it, which should 
be easy to spot.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun  4 14:23:04 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 20:23:04 +0100 (BST)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...)
In-Reply-To: <p06240800cbf2631a9d0c@[192.168.1.108]> from "Mark Tapley" at Jun
 4, 12 09:00:16 am
Message-ID: <m1Sbcru-000J4mC@p850ug1>

> http://www.cloud9tech.com/ (no affiliation, other than as a highly 
> satisfied customer) does market DriveWire for the CoCo3 running 
> NitrOS-9. I have not (yet) used it, but they claim 115,200 bps on a 
> CoCo3. There is a corresponding server that runs on the (Windows/Mac 

What hardware does it use at the CoCo end? It can't use the bit-banged 
serial port (obviously), and none of the traditional RS232 modules would 
go at that speed. Is there some special serial board for the CoCo (using 
a PC-like serial chip, perhaps).

> OS X/Linux) other end of the serial wire, and they claim TCP/IP and 
> several dependent services (telnet, MIDI streaming to the server). So 
> Tony's suggestion more or less already exists, with the assumption 

THis does not suprise me, it wouldn';t be that difficult to do. OS-9 is 
really, really, hackable...

> that you don't mind a modern-ish PC acting as an external ethernet 
> <-> serial adaptor.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun  4 13:59:49 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:59:49 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Philips P800 family minis
In-Reply-To: <020401cd4242$649b8180$2dd28480$@gmail.com> from "Camiel
 Vanderhoeven" at Jun 4, 12 01:08:37 pm
Message-ID: <m1SbcVP-000J4jC@p850ug1>

> 
> Hi Tony,
>  
> >> - 3 x P859 (one looks like the board set is incomplete)
> > Am I right in thinking that his is related to the P854?
> 
> Yes, from what I've been able to glance from the manuals, the P859 is the
> same as the P854, but build on large 19" rack sized cards (M-type cards)
> rather than double eurocards (E-type cards)

Ah, right... I'd assuemd youy had a lot of double eurcards...

The P854 is certianly double Eurocards. I think the CPU set is 3 boards, 
I would have to check what's on each board. 

> >> - 1 x card cage with 6 cards. No idea what this is yet.
> > Maybe soem specail I/O unig. Philips appaer to ahve made a lot of realtime
> I/O bords, ADCs, DACs, etc.
> 
> Turns out to be an expansion chassis that gives you space for 6 more cards.

When I got my P851 nad P854, I was given a chassis like that full of 
'spare' boards, mostly seiral, but with I think an ADC or DAC amongst 
them. I was also give a few prototyping board (dobule eurocards with a 
wirewrap arean and the bus interface logic pre-built, one of which was 
never used. I always intended to make a paper tape interface on one of 
them...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun  4 14:51:13 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 20:51:13 +0100 (BST)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 4, 12 10:45:56 am
Message-ID: <m1SbdJ9-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> 5.25" had the Drivetec/Kodak in various flavors.  Fortunately, 
> formatting isn't an issue, because the end-user can't.  Another of 
> those wonderful ideas that product development doesn't perceive as a 
> liability.

I've come across an Epson 5.25" floppy drive with an ST412-like 
interface. Apparently it gets about 5MBytes o na disk. I don;t think it 
was servotracked (the positioner is a nromal stepper motor) and I think 
the heads are in contact with the media when it's in use. Anyone know 
anything about it?

-tony


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 15:08:45 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 16:08:45 -0400
Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <m1SbcL2-000J4hC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SbcL2-000J4hC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <91A8E63F-02BC-4CDF-AB0D-908CB5D215CC@gmail.com>

On Jun 4, 2012, at 2:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote:

>> How does one copy a Floppy Disk Drive? ;-)
> 
> I would think by using measuring tools on the parts of the 'source' drive 
> and then using machien tools, metal casting facilities, injection 
> moulding machines, PCB fabrictiaon, soldering irons, etc to make said 
> parts and aseemble the 'destination' drive.

Or, if you are lucky enough to own a starship, simply use your replicator.

- Dave



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun  4 15:46:44 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 13:46:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <91A8E63F-02BC-4CDF-AB0D-908CB5D215CC@gmail.com>
References: <m1SbcL2-000J4hC@p850ug1>
 <91A8E63F-02BC-4CDF-AB0D-908CB5D215CC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120604134258.Q95864@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, David Riley wrote:
> Or, if you are lucky enough to own a starship, simply use your replicator.

When you get a chance, would you mind replicating your replicator?


Howzbout: an automated microtome connected to a 3D printer?
"Fax me a couple of FDDs"




From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Jun  4 16:32:39 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 14:32:39 -0700
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <m1Sbbyo-000J4cC@p850ug1>
References: <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 3, 12 05:17:38 pm, <m1Sbbyo-000J4cC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FCCC707.18765.11CE4CC@cclist.sydex.com>

On 4 Jun 2012 at 19:26, Tony Duell wrote:

> No, I'll agree with that. But most 'HD' drives are reakky 'HD capable'
> drives and can also be switeched (pin 2, isn't it?) to correctly write
> to DD media. The only remaining problem is the track width.

I've got a couple of Matsushita (I think) drives that are HD-only--
basically shrunk down 8" drives.  Apparently used in some PC98 
systems.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Jun  4 16:36:46 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 14:36:46 -0700
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <m1SbdJ9-000J4TC@p850ug1>
References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun
 4, 12 10:45:56 am, <m1SbdJ9-000J4TC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FCCC7FE.23577.120A956@cclist.sydex.com>

On 4 Jun 2012 at 20:51, Tony Duell wrote:

> I've come across an Epson 5.25" floppy drive with an ST412-like 
> interface. Apparently it gets about 5MBytes o na disk. I don;t think
> it was servotracked (the positioner is a nromal stepper motor) and I
> think the heads are in contact with the media when it's in use. Anyone
> know anything about it?

No, I don't think I've seen one.  But the Drivetek 320 drives had two 
edge connectors--one 34-position, the other 8-position, in an 
arrangement such that you could make contact with both using a 50 
position edge connector.

Embedded servo.  I wonder if the Epson also uses that...

Later Kodak drives don't have the second connector.

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun  4 16:43:56 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 14:43:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCCC707.18765.11CE4CC@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FCB9C32.17552.23387EA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 3, 12 05:17:38 pm,
 <m1Sbbyo-000J4cC@p850ug1> <4FCCC707.18765.11CE4CC@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20120604144148.B95864@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> I've got a couple of Matsushita (I think) drives that are HD-only--
> basically shrunk down 8" drives.  Apparently used in some PC98
> systems.

First HD drive that I got (swap-meet) was a Mitsubishi 4854, but unlike
any 4854 that I've seen since.  In addition to making no attempt at "dual
mode", it had a 50 pin connector.  I guess that the early development of
HD 5.25 was intended as drop-in 8" replacement.




From snhirsch at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 17:21:53 2012
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 18:21:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...)
In-Reply-To: <201206041445.q54EjOmR13369530@floodgap.com>
References: <201206041445.q54EjOmR13369530@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206041820380.3813@duo>

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

>>> OS9 is so modular that there would be no problem in writing the device
>>> manager and device drivers for a netwoek drvice. I think ethernet would
>>> have had far to high a data rate, but there are plenty of slower
>>> alternatices.
>>
>> Sorry for delayed response, vacation intervened.
>>
>> http://www.cloud9tech.com/ (no affiliation, other than as a highly
>> satisfied customer) does market DriveWire for the CoCo3 running
>> NitrOS-9. I have not (yet) used it, but they claim 115,200 bps on a
>> CoCo3. There is a corresponding server that runs on the (Windows/Mac
>> OS X/Linux) other end of the serial wire, and they claim TCP/IP and
>> several dependent services (telnet, MIDI streaming to the server). So
>> Tony's suggestion more or less already exists, with the assumption
>> that you don't mind a modern-ish PC acting as an external ethernet
>> <-> serial adaptor.
>
> Is this SLIP or PPP?

Neither.  It's a well thought-out (and documented!) protocol for interface 
between small 8-bit machines and modern hardware.  There's nothing 
specific to the CoCo - that just happens to be the first implementation.



-- 



From snhirsch at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 17:23:38 2012
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 18:23:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...)
In-Reply-To: <m1Sbcru-000J4mC@p850ug1>
References: <m1Sbcru-000J4mC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206041822030.3813@duo>

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:

>> http://www.cloud9tech.com/ (no affiliation, other than as a highly
>> satisfied customer) does market DriveWire for the CoCo3 running
>> NitrOS-9. I have not (yet) used it, but they claim 115,200 bps on a
>> CoCo3. There is a corresponding server that runs on the (Windows/Mac
>
> What hardware does it use at the CoCo end? It can't use the bit-banged
> serial port (obviously), and none of the traditional RS232 modules would
> go at that speed. Is there some special serial board for the CoCo (using
> a PC-like serial chip, perhaps).

Actually, it does use the bit-banger serial port and it does communicate 
at 115.2kps quite reliably.  The author of the drivewire server tells me 
that with a small hardware mod they're able to do 230kbps.

Steve


-- 



From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Jun  4 17:34:05 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 15:34:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206041820380.3813@duo> from Steven Hirsch at
 "Jun 4, 12 06:21:53 pm"
Message-ID: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>

> > Is this SLIP or PPP?
> 
> Neither.  It's a well thought-out (and documented!) protocol for interface 
> between small 8-bit machines and modern hardware.  There's nothing 
> specific to the CoCo - that just happens to be the first implementation.

I just looked at it on sourceforge. It seems like the same setup of a
Lantronix UDS or Wiznet-type device. Those are a little more portable.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- It would have been funnier if I didn't have to think. -- Ashley Mills ------


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  4 17:47:29 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 15:47:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: looking for insights leading to the acquisition of Intel Multibus
 boxen
Message-ID: <1338850049.70721.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

formerly known as chrism3667 at yahoo.com

I need help. I really need help. I'm so in straits I'm watching Sara Mclachlan vids. Yeah I won't be denied.


From abs at absd.org  Mon Jun  4 18:07:05 2012
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 00:07:05 +0100
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>

In case anyone finds this of interest/amusement...


Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP

What to do with a VAX workstation, based on an architecture first
released by Digital Equipment Corporation in 1977 and finally closed
out by Compaq at the end of the last millennium?

The obvious option would be to dig out an ancient copy of VMS, or
maybe an early UNIX tape, but what then? Could it run the latest
Apache or screen, and how will I be able to connect it to a native
IPv6 network (when we finally get there :) ?

As an alternative, lets see if a current OS and software can run on a
machine with an architecture older than some of the *parents* of
modern developers...

[continued at http://netbsd0.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/retrocomputing-with-vamp-stack-vax.html
]


From jon at jonworld.com  Mon Jun  4 18:12:58 2012
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:12:58 -0400
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 7:07 PM, David Brownlee <abs at absd.org> wrote:
> In case anyone finds this of interest/amusement...
>
>
> Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP

I've been debating doing this with my MicroVAX 2. Hmmmmm.


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Jun  4 19:45:53 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 20:45:53 -0400
Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog
 DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07
In-Reply-To: <20120604191931.GB25382@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <CAALmimkVvD8zH=cOM8+t0nim+r3p+DsNSxKGcsMzhAzBWPTjRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ4ycS0Lcv1tQdZ7uT+v_khgtJ0OYPm7WcKmQd6S_Erjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmWhMA_Y4bK9A6v656xEdWv07uXnwih7Qu0NnziY43t3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmS3uzre5H3Kq5WeJhe-OxiwUQQaGJRCMNL9T_iZun2SA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120604054519.GC76345@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAALmimniucLg_65MG3bv2aUG+OGWhTQfysR_xQ8pDSF7MF0RSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120604191931.GB25382@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <4FCD56C1.1080009@neurotica.com>

On 06/04/2012 03:19 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Don't know for now, but it should be possible to jumper the RQDX3 as 2nd
> MSCP Controller to...

  This is definitely possible; I do it all the time.  Here are the
relevant jumper settings:


Card-edge connector pointing down, horizontal row of jumpers:

11 10 9  8  7  6  5  4  3  2  1
-------------------------------
1  0  1  0  0  0  1  1  0  1  0  CSR=772150 (primary)
0  0  0  0  0  1  1  0  1  1  1  CSR=760334 (secondary)

          -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From snhirsch at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 20:08:02 2012
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 21:08:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...)
In-Reply-To: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

>>> Is this SLIP or PPP?
>>
>> Neither.  It's a well thought-out (and documented!) protocol for interface
>> between small 8-bit machines and modern hardware.  There's nothing
>> specific to the CoCo - that just happens to be the first implementation.
>
> I just looked at it on sourceforge. It seems like the same setup of a
> Lantronix UDS or Wiznet-type device. Those are a little more portable.

In some respects. But those don't give you the virtual disk drive services 
that drivewire offers.


-- 



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Jun  4 21:45:12 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 19:45:12 -0700
Subject: Seeking information on some Qbus disk/tape controllers: Dilog
 DQ37, Emulex QT131 and UC07
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmS3uzre5H3Kq5WeJhe-OxiwUQQaGJRCMNL9T_iZun2SA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkVvD8zH=cOM8+t0nim+r3p+DsNSxKGcsMzhAzBWPTjRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ4ycS0Lcv1tQdZ7uT+v_khgtJ0OYPm7WcKmQd6S_Erjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmWhMA_Y4bK9A6v656xEdWv07uXnwih7Qu0NnziY43t3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmS3uzre5H3Kq5WeJhe-OxiwUQQaGJRCMNL9T_iZun2SA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJKw8vYG7Kgd2zFP3JsxPHVfi9m5JgB92rnxrq6DsB-7A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My Dilog boards are, according to the paper labels in the upper-left
> corner, SQ3703As. ?One is marked Rev G and looks clean. ?The other is
> a Rev E with a few green ECO wires (the Rev E board has an EPROM
> marked "Rev G", and the Rev G board has firmware marked "Rev H".
>
> I'm guessing there isn't a lot of info out there to attempt to see if
> it's possible to "convert" an SQ3703A to an SQ3706A in the field, but
> if anyone knows anything about both boards, I'd be game to try if it's
> EPROMs or PALs or whatever.
>
> -ethan

On my SQ3706A, REV H,  I have the following socketed GAL devices:

13U 92771A
18U 92769A
19U 92773A
26U 92774A
34U 92770A
57U 92775B
74U 92772A

The firmware is U46 92734, REV L

57U is the only device that is not a Nat Semi GAL, and the only device
with a 'B' suffix.  That plus its location adjacent to the DILOG QBIC
ASIC leads me to guess that device is most likely the CSR decode
device.  I suppose it wouldn't take much to check the pins of this
device and see if they lead to the BDAL lines through the AM2908 quad
bus tranceivers.

What part labels do you have on the socketed GAL devices on your
SQ3703A?  Do they happen to match the part labels that I have on my
SQ3706A except for U46?

I might not take too much to figure out how to convert a TMSCP SQ3703A
into an MSCP SQ3706A.


Ok, I'm now getting lined up to acquire an SQ3703A.  When it arrives
I'll compare the two and see if I can figure out how to do a
conversion as I did with CMD CQD200 and CQD220 boards.

-Glen



From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Mon Jun  4 23:42:09 2012
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 06:42:09 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <m1SbcRb-000J4iC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SbcRb-000J4iC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FCD8E21.40608@bluewin.ch>

On 06/04/2012 08:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>> .        2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859)
>>
>>
>> .        3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859)
> What technology does this CPU use? 2900 bit-slice, ASICs, or what? The
> P854 CPU is 3 cards, I think, one of which is the MMU (and one of the
> others an IOP?, I would have to check the manuals). The P851 CPU is a
> signle board, using Philips bitslice ICs...
>

The P856/P857CPU  uses a  single PCB with a 74181 ALU and microcode in proms.


Jos


From swtpc6800 at comcast.net  Mon Jun  4 23:42:21 2012
From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 21:42:21 -0700
Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles
Message-ID: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>

For the past 5 years or so I have been collecting references on early 8-bit
microprocessors, with an emphasis on the Motorola MC6800. The best source is
trade magazines from the mid-1970s. I have a reasonable collection of
McGraw-Hill's Electronics and a few issues of Electronic Design and EDN. I
am old enough that I read all of these when they were new. I got a bunch
from eBay and another bundle from Steven Stengel on this list.  I have not
ventured over to the University of Washington yet, they have a good
collection. (I can scan my individual issues at home.)

Motorola did not chronicle their microprocessor development like Intel did.
MOS Technology has Chuck Peddle telling an alternate reality version of the
events. Chuck's enthusiastic promotion of the 6502 in 1975 was responsible
for its success and his story has improved with 35 years of retelling.
Rereading these magazines gives a better understanding of what really
happened. Did you know that the Motorola 6800 and Intel 8080 both had their
introductory articles in the April 18, 1974 issue of Electronics?
 
I have uploaded a selection of articles to my website.

http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Microprocessors/Microprocessor_History.htm

There is one issue with a 6800 article that I have not found is the November
20, 1974 issue of EDN, "A very complete chip set joins the great
microprocessor race" starting on page 87. Has anyone got it?

I wrote the Motorola 6800 article on Wikipedia and just updated the MOS
Technology 6502 article.

Michael Holley



From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Tue Jun  5 00:10:34 2012
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 22:10:34 -0700
Subject: Tekniques vol1-8 online (Tektronix 405x newsletter)
In-Reply-To: <E1SbbJU-0007pl-G2@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1SbbJU-0007pl-G2@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4FCD94CA.60202@mail.msu.edu>

On 6/4/2012 10:43 AM, Richard wrote:
> Some time ago I obtained a batch of the Tektronix 4050 series
> newsletter issues.  I have scanned these and Al has put them up on
> bitsavers:<http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/tekniques/>
>
> I've also scanned a software catalog for 4050 series:
> <http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/405x/Supplementary_Software_and_Services_4050_Series_1980.pdf>
>
> I have some other Tekniques related items, but they are collections of
> reprints of articles from specific issues of Tekniques that I've
> already scanned above, so I considered it redundant.
>
> The last issue I had was vol. 8, no. 1.  I do not know if there were
> other issues after that.

Very cool!  Thanks for getting these out there!  (I needed an excuse to 
get my 4051 out again...)

- Josh


From mc68010 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 00:54:09 2012
From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 22:54:09 -0700
Subject: 25 RL02K Carts up near Portland, Or
In-Reply-To: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4FCD9F01.7000002@gmail.com>

I have nothing to do with this but, ran across it searching Craigslist.

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/sys/3058089196.html

Here's the text:

"I have for sale a few vintage data cartridges. They are 10mb and in 
good used condition.. text 503.891.3115.. price is $25 each or all 25 
for $400"


From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun  5 01:11:48 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 00:11:48 -0600
Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles
In-Reply-To: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com>


In article <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>,
    "Michael Holley" <swtpc6800 at comcast.net> writes:

> For the past 5 years or so I have been collecting references on early 8-bit
> microprocessors, with an emphasis on the Motorola MC6800. [...]

The following terminals are built with the 6800:

<http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Perkin-Elmer_Fox_1100>
<http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Perkin-Elmer_Owl_1200>
<http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Tektronix_4051>
<http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Volker-Craig_VC414>

There may be more, but that's all I've been able to identify so far.
I have one of the Perkin-Elmer terminals (a Fox 1100, IIRC) and have
been meaning to take some better pictures of it.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun  5 01:21:29 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 00:21:29 -0600
Subject: Aesthedes
Message-ID: <E1Sbn8z-00078E-5x@shell.xmission.com>

We've discussed Aesthedes here before and I finally got the brochure
that came with it scanned and uploaded to bitsavers:

<http://bitsavers.org/pdf/aesthedes/Aesthedes_IPEX_88_Brochure_1988.pdf>

It clearly shows main system and describes it in general terms
(plant not included).

Documentation for the Aesthedes is in the scan pipeline.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Tue Jun  5 01:34:27 2012
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2012 23:34:27 -0700
Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles
In-Reply-To: <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>

On 6/4/2012 11:11 PM, Richard wrote:
> In article<000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>,
>      "Michael Holley"<swtpc6800 at comcast.net>  writes:
>
>> For the past 5 years or so I have been collecting references on early 8-bit
>> microprocessors, with an emphasis on the Motorola MC6800. [...]
> The following terminals are built with the 6800:
>
> <http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Perkin-Elmer_Fox_1100>
> <http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Perkin-Elmer_Owl_1200>
> <http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Tektronix_4051>
> <http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Volker-Craig_VC414>
>
> There may be more, but that's all I've been able to identify so far.
> I have one of the Perkin-Elmer terminals (a Fox 1100, IIRC) and have
> been meaning to take some better pictures of it.

I'll be pedantic and note that the Tektronix 4051 isn't really a 
terminal, it's a general-purpose computer (with BASIC built in).  But 
I'm sure it could also act as a pretty decent terminal with the right 
software :).

Josh


From segin2005 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 01:58:08 2012
From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 02:58:08 -0400
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMKR1yuj_D3Vfjy=bKzqvCFQD-RCy4coUrFE+i8HUFQWofbSOA@mail.gmail.com>

NetBSD runs on VAX, and has support for running a.out binaries from 4.3BSD.

NetBSD also includes a IPv6 stack (KAME), and they have the best
cross-platform source-based package management system, pkgsrc.

Aside from how you're going to install it (and you're going to need, from
the VAX's perspective, a giant hard drive - 200-400MB is what the base
system alone will need), you'll also need a *lot* of patience while Apache
and friends compile. Good news, though, your stuff won't compile to
mind-boggling (even for modern machines) large binaries because NetBSD/vax
has VAX support in it's ELF ld.elf_so. Don't know what the virtual memory
subsystem is like for NetBSD/vax, but if it's anywhere as good as Linux or
any *BSD on modern machines, you'll have copy-on-write fork()s and
libraries that share read-only segments across unrelated main executables,
which will be extremely useful in an environment strapped for free RAM.

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Jonathan Katz <jon at jonworld.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 7:07 PM, David Brownlee <abs at absd.org> wrote:
> > In case anyone finds this of interest/amusement...
> >
> >
> > Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
>
> I've been debating doing this with my MicroVAX 2. Hmmmmm.
>


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 02:07:22 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 00:07:22 -0700
Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles
In-Reply-To: <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKYixVMgZdumjrhXSc9BiGSdn1yNvAh4AFDJuGok2uFSQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 4, 2012 11:15 PM, "Richard" <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>
> The following terminals are built with the 6800:
>
> <http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Perkin-Elmer_Fox_1100>
> <http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Perkin-Elmer_Owl_1200>
> <http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Tektronix_4051>
> <http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Volker-Craig_VC414>
>
> There may be more, but that's all I've been able to identify so far.

There is also the EXORterm 155. I just opened mine up to confirm it uses a
6800 (but not a 6845 CRT controller).

I've never found much info on the EXORterm.


From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun  5 02:29:03 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 01:29:03 -0600
Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles
In-Reply-To: <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FCDA873.1030407 at mail.msu.edu>,
    Josh Dersch <derschjo at mail.msu.edu> writes:

> I'll be pedantic and note that the Tektronix 4051 isn't really a 
> terminal, it's a general-purpose computer (with BASIC built in).  But 
> I'm sure it could also act as a pretty decent terminal with the right 
> software :).

There's a continuum between classic "glass tty" terminals on one end
and full blown personal computers on the other.  Tektronix wasn't the
only manufacturer to recognize this.  Add local storage and some sort
of operating system (BASIC in ROM will do) to a terminal and you have
a personal computer.

On the terminals wiki I have a category for terminals like this:
<http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Local_Processing>

There is also that middle ground where the terminal has local storage,
but no local programming environment:
<http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Local_Storage>

Most terminals that had local processing had local storage, but not
always.  Some were intended to be locally programmable by downloading
a program from the host.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Tue Jun  5 02:44:36 2012
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 00:44:36 -0700
Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles
In-Reply-To: <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>

On 6/5/2012 12:29 AM, Richard wrote:
> In article<4FCDA873.1030407 at mail.msu.edu>,
>      Josh Dersch<derschjo at mail.msu.edu>  writes:
>
>> I'll be pedantic and note that the Tektronix 4051 isn't really a
>> terminal, it's a general-purpose computer (with BASIC built in).  But
>> I'm sure it could also act as a pretty decent terminal with the right
>> software :).
> There's a continuum between classic "glass tty" terminals on one end
> and full blown personal computers on the other.  Tektronix wasn't the
> only manufacturer to recognize this.  Add local storage and some sort
> of operating system (BASIC in ROM will do) to a terminal and you have
> a personal computer.

Sure, but the 4051 doesn't really sit in the "slightly modified 
terminal" mold -- it didn't come with RS-232 connectivity built in (it 
had GPIB and a pointer input, IIRC).  RS-232 was an optional add-on, as 
was the software that allowed it to behave as a terminal.  The 4051 was 
a built to be a computer first, and was sold as a "Graphic Computing 
System."  
(http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Tektronix/Tektronix.4051.1976.102646254.pdf)

It may possibly have started at Tek as a "hey, let's take a 401x 
terminal and make a computer out of it" but I don't really understand 
why that means the end result is considered a Terminal in any way  (or 
why it's useful to categorize it in such a way).  (And in this case, did 
any other Tek terminals prior to (or after?) the 4051 use a 6800?  
Wouldn't the lack of any such beast point to the 4051 as being 
purpose-built as a computer, and not the evolution of a terminal design?)

- Josh

>
> On the terminals wiki I have a category for terminals like this:
> <http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Local_Processing>
>
> There is also that middle ground where the terminal has local storage,
> but no local programming environment:
> <http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Local_Storage>
>
> Most terminals that had local processing had local storage, but not
> always.  Some were intended to be locally programmable by downloading
> a program from the host.


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Tue Jun  5 04:04:10 2012
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:04:10 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>
 <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206051100440.19228@linuxserv.home>

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Allison wrote:
> On 06/04/2012 04:54 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
>> How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I have enough 96tpi "DD" 
>> drives. I think you mix up track density and recording density, two 
>> unrelated things.
>
> There are two common track density 48 and 96 tpi or otherwise said
> 40 and 80 cylinders.  there are more tracks/cylinders to the radial inch.
> Also the head width is narrower by two for the 96tpi.
>
> Recording density is experssed in FRPI Flux Reversals per Inch.
>
> The problem with floppies is that for 5.25 you had:
[...]

I know that all very well, it's not to me that you have to explain it ;-)

Christian


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Tue Jun  5 04:07:31 2012
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:07:31 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <4FCCDBA6.7030408@bluewin.ch>
References: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com>
 <4FCCDBA6.7030408@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206051104480.19228@linuxserv.home>

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Jos Dreesen wrote:
>> ? FLDB : 5111 199 69667
>
> This is the 8" floppy drive interface, you should be able to run a 50-wire 
> flatcable directly to the drive.

Yes, but attention! This is *not* the Shugart layout; instead it's CDC 
proprietary. You need to build an adapter in order to attach standard 
Shugart drives (I've built one for our FLDB). And the FLDB (at least ours) 
is single-density FM only (26 spt. 128 bytes/sect.)

Christian

PS:
Still looking for a floppy based OS.


From abs at absd.org  Tue Jun  5 04:25:57 2012
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:25:57 +0100
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <CAMKR1yuj_D3Vfjy=bKzqvCFQD-RCy4coUrFE+i8HUFQWofbSOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKR1yuj_D3Vfjy=bKzqvCFQD-RCy4coUrFE+i8HUFQWofbSOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pa7KKVNWznf+5QKeKWwMLJzxZd6LmYawm8LcbZCi2PPNw@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 June 2012 07:58, Kirn Gill <segin2005 at gmail.com> wrote:
> NetBSD runs on VAX, and has support for running a.out binaries from 4.3BSD.
>
> NetBSD also includes a IPv6 stack (KAME), and they have the best
> cross-platform source-based package management system, pkgsrc.
>
> Aside from how you're going to install it (and you're going to need, from
> the VAX's perspective, a giant hard drive - 200-400MB is what the base
> system alone will need), you'll also need a *lot* of patience while Apache
> and friends compile. Good news, though, your stuff won't compile to
> mind-boggling (even for modern machines) large binaries because NetBSD/vax
> has VAX support in it's ELF ld.elf_so. Don't know what the virtual memory
> subsystem is like for NetBSD/vax, but if it's anywhere as good as Linux or
> any *BSD on modern machines, you'll have copy-on-write fork()s and
> libraries that share read-only segments across unrelated main executables,
> which will be extremely useful in an environment strapped for free RAM.

The 4000/90 feels quite performant under NetBSD (as well it should
being a 40 VUP machine :), though gcc is slow compiling c and just
*painful* compiling c++. Setting pkgsrc to generate bzip compressed
packages rather than gzip is also a poor choice.

NetBSD ships with a tiny httpd, and for personal preference I would
have run nginx rather than apache, but that would have broken the
acronym.

The NetBSD distribution itself is obviously trivial to cross compile
from pretty much any POSIX compliant system (I use my Thinkpad), and
for those who prefer to spend their VAX cycles executing non-compiler
code there should be a set of binary pkgsrc packages available after
the netbsd-6 release (probably trickling in and completing quite some
time after the release, you know how it is)

If anyone would like a test shell account on wopr, just drop me an ssh
public key (unless you regard ssh keys as the spawn of the devil in
which case something else could be arranged).

> On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 7:12 PM, Jonathan Katz <jon at jonworld.com> wrote:
>
>> I've been debating doing this with my MicroVAX 2. Hmmmmm.
>>

How much memory & disk does it have? I lost my uVaxII a long time ago
& have not been able to locate another :(


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Tue Jun  5 04:28:04 2012
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:28:04 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <20120604080734.C95864@shell.lmi.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>
 <20120604080734.C95864@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206051108570.19228@linuxserv.home>

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote:
>> How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I have enough 96tpi "DD"
>> drives. I think you mix up track density and recording density, two
>> unrelated things.
>
> You make an important, but IRRELEVANT point.

Now that's the dumbest excuse I've read in a long time.

> I am cognizant of the differences, and the sloppiness of the terminology,
> and CHOSE to attempt to reply to the original poster using the
> terminology that he had used.  I do have sample diskettes from hundreds

So he won't be able to learn the correct terminology as soon as possible.

> OK, YOU explain to the original poster why he will or will not have
> problems writing Kaypro2, Apple2, Commodore diskettes using the "1.2M"
> drive from an IBM 5170.  He will need to know about coercivity, LATER,

We won't have any problem if the target system uses 96 tpi drives too. I 
have some 80 track Apple2 drives, and the SFD1001 is 96tpi as well. So he 
could use (or even will have to use) that drive to write those kind of 
disks. The whole point is that you can't give a definite answer without 
knowing the details of the source system (where the disks are written) and 
the target system (where they are to be used).

> when he selects blank media to use.  But, right now, for selesting which
> DRIVE to mount in the case, he does NOT need to be concerned with flux
> transition rate, disk total capacity, options of alternate physical
> formats, or variant exceptions to the "standard" formats.

Why not? Doesn't he have the right to learn those things? This thread has 
enough simple answers; why not give an additional more exhaustive answer
to the matter?

> The issue for the original poster was whether he should use a "DD"  drive
> or an "HD" drive.  Those were HIS terms.  HE was not referring with "DD

The issue of the OP was no issue at all. If I read that correctly, he 
simply wants to read files off of standard MS-DOS disks. So that involves 
a simple trial-and-error step in order to determine whether a standard 
drive can read those disks or not.

> YES, "DD drive" can refer to several other things, but was it not
> possible, if one wanted to, to understand what he meant?

Sure, he wants to read bog standard MS-DOS disks. So the answer is: Just 
get a drive and try it. And BTW, usually you can recognise "HD" floppies 
fairly easily because most don't have the hub reinforcement ring. And 
next: Usually the characteristics are written on the disk label. For "HD" 
disks, here are some examples:
"HD" floppies
   Disky HD 2 (Doebbelin&Boeder)
   2S/HD 96tpi (BASF EXTRA)
   MD2-HD Double Sided High Density Soft-Sectored (Verbatim Verex)
"DD" floppies
   diskette 2D96 (Doebbelin&Boeder disky)
   MD2D Double sided/Double Density/48TPI (Fuji Film)

> Another poster pointed out that the original poster had referred to his
> diskettes as FDDs, and asked how you copy a Floppy Disk Drive.  Being from
> a "Fantasia" generation, I can't help but visualize Mickey Mouse as The

Oh come on! That was me, and there was a smiley. Sorry, but you really 
give your nick name "Grumpy Ol' Fred" all honours!

Christian


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 04:31:55 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 06:31:55 -0300
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKR1yuj_D3Vfjy=bKzqvCFQD-RCy4coUrFE+i8HUFQWofbSOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pa7KKVNWznf+5QKeKWwMLJzxZd6LmYawm8LcbZCi2PPNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0ae301cd42fe$3893a920$6500a8c0@tababook>

> If anyone would like a test shell account on wopr, just drop me an ssh
                                                                    ^^^^

    Wow!
    Does it play chess? Tic-tac-toe? Global Thermonuclear War? :oD


From abs at absd.org  Tue Jun  5 04:46:22 2012
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:46:22 +0100
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <0ae301cd42fe$3893a920$6500a8c0@tababook>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKR1yuj_D3Vfjy=bKzqvCFQD-RCy4coUrFE+i8HUFQWofbSOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pa7KKVNWznf+5QKeKWwMLJzxZd6LmYawm8LcbZCi2PPNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0ae301cd42fe$3893a920$6500a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pZ41j3PcC8XQ9rq6FXqCdd8ESrF=9YQ18SKpWydXN8AMw@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 June 2012 10:31, Alexandre Souza - Listas <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> If anyone would like a test shell account on wopr, just drop me an ssh
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ^^^^
> ? Wow!
> ? Does it play chess? Tic-tac-toe? Global Thermonuclear War? :oD

Well, it has a 'falken' login which asks "Would you like to play a game?"

Does anyone know of a *nix compatible Tic-tac-toe source?  :)



From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 05:41:33 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 12:41:33 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <m1SbcRb-000J4iC@p850ug1>
References: <01ff01cd4241$c49ca4c0$4dd5ee40$@camicom.com> from "Camiel
 Vanderhoeven" at Jun 4, 12 01:04:09 pm <m1SbcRb-000J4iC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <02a001cd4307$c763f020$562bd060$@gmail.com>

> > .        2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859)
> > .        3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859)
> 
> What technology does this CPU use? 2900 bit-slice, ASICs, or what? The
> P854 CPU is 3 cards, I think, one of which is the MMU (and one of the 
> others an IOP?, I would have to check the manuals). The P851 CPU is 
> a signle board, using Philips bitslice ICs...

2900 bit-slice.

> > I'm hoping CDD means Cartridge Disc Drive, and that these are the 
> > controllers for the X1215 disk drives.
>
> Althoguh I don't have the drive, I think I have the X1215 controlelr in my

> P854. From what I rememebr it's got an 8X305 chip on it, which should 
> be easy to spot.

The card I suspect is the controller is labeled "5111 199 7817 CDD". The
cable that connects to the X1215 is labeled "X1215 CDD UP" on the top side.
The wires match up with the used contact fingers on the CDD board.

This card has 178 14 and 16 pin chips on it, all 74xx logic except for four
that are marked "F 9301 DC". Also an oscillator circuit built around a 10MHz
quartz crystal (a multiple of the 2.5 MHz data clock used in the X1215). It
also has 10 3-pin jumper blocks without any legend to it. 

Cheers,

Camiel




From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 07:36:04 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 14:36:04 +0200
Subject: Philips P800 family minis
References: <mailman.1.1338656403.38076.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <4FCA7B2D.1010805@otter.se> 
Message-ID: <02a701cd4317$c66ffff0$534fffd0$@gmail.com>

I took one of the P859 boxes to check out. Power supplies turned out to be
good, so I put in one of the P859 CPU cards (CP7RA). The fluorescent display
briefly displayed "8.", followed by "000000". The expected output, according
to the manual, is "ooFFFC", after the CPU has run a first self-test. I
swapped out the CPU with one of the other ones, and this one does give me
"ooFFFC". Hit the "0" button simultaneously with the "TEST" button to run
the microdiagnostics, and got an indication that it failed on accessing
memory. I plugged in a memory board, and now it passes all self-tests
successfully (display "ooFF04"). So, at least this cpu and this memory board
appear to be OK so far. I can push the "IPL" button, and using "INST" I can
step through the IPL code (the listing is provided in the manual, so you
have a good idea of what's going on).

Off course, I'd like to get it to boot something, and the only media I have
are the fixed platters in the three X1215's, and the 10 X1215 cartridges.
These are labeled as follows:
- DOM 210 & 211 for X1215 update P800 testprograms. 27-09-'84 R.v.d.Heyden.
- X1215 IPL 63C2 Testprograms update 85-12-18 DOM9A/02 IT/10, DOM9C/02 IT/11
Userid: SDAPRO s:$load (for running testprograms)
- SAG3 KERNEL 3 MULTIBASIC
- DOM_HARRY OLDREL old sources of release 01-10-82
- TRAINING 004 P.H.Kraaijeveld
- Service pack 1 "various programmes"
- DISK Unit 1
- TP00 Test Pack
- P800 (X1215)
- Philips (unlabeled)

The two cartridges labeled "testprograms" look promising; especially since
instructions on how to run them are included. Of course, I want to make sure
that the disk drive doesn't damage cartridges before I load these, so I'll
test the drives with an the unlabeled Philips cartridge first. I'm wondering
of the "TP00 Test Pack" is the "Servicing disk-pack" mentioned in the
service manual.

So, I'd really like to get at least one cartridge drive running, so I opened
one up. There was a bit of dust inside, but not too much, and the disk
compartment seems clean. However, I discovered a problem on the undersize of
the drive.
The drive belt is made out of cloth or nylon, covered in an orange substance
(probably rubber).  The rubber comes off in flakes, and a lot of the gooey
stuff is stuck on the pulleys. All three drives suffer from this condition.
I need to find a replacement for these. The belts are a little over 1/2 inch
wide, and the length of the cloth as measured is 35-1/8 inches. I'm figuring
I need a belt with a 35 inch inside circumference. The service manual only
lists a Philips part number, no dimensions for the belt.

Any idea where to get replacement belts?

Cheers,

Camiel



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Jun  5 06:44:34 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 04:44:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Steven Hirsch wrote:

> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>
>>>> Is this SLIP or PPP?
>>> 
>>> Neither.  It's a well thought-out (and documented!) protocol for interface
>>> between small 8-bit machines and modern hardware.  There's nothing
>>> specific to the CoCo - that just happens to be the first implementation.
>> 
>> I just looked at it on sourceforge. It seems like the same setup of a
>> Lantronix UDS or Wiznet-type device. Those are a little more portable.
>
> In some respects. But those don't give you the virtual disk drive services 
> that drivewire offers.

For the Commodore users out there, you might want to look at the Comet 
from http://www.commodoreserver.com.  They've got a new driver out that 
allows for a 38.4k transfer rate on the USER port, which is a pretty big 
deal on a Commodore 64.  I've got a Comet and it works VERY well.

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 08:32:07 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:32:07 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206051104480.19228@linuxserv.home>
References: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com>
 <4FCCDBA6.7030408@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206051104480.19228@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5RE3zd2JQ=OYUWUTOO-6ng=HRvbL5qRZDrj41XoEA2DQg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Christian Corti
<cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:
>>> ? FLDB : 5111 199 69667
>> This is the 8" floppy drive interface, you should be able to run a 50-wire
>> flatcable directly to the drive.
> Yes, but attention! This is *not* the Shugart layout; instead it's CDC
> proprietary. You need to build an adapter in order to attach standard
> Shugart drives (I've built one for our FLDB). And the FLDB (at least ours)
> is single-density FM only (26 spt. 128 bytes/sect.)

Going through the manuals I have on CDC drives, I already noticed that
the 50-pin pinout is different from the SA800 standard. The exact type
of drive I have (BR8A8A is not mentioned, although various BR8Axx
models are.

So, it looks like I have four different types of floppydisk controller:

- FLDB (8", built around 2 2901 bit slices)
- F1MB (8", built around N8X300I + N8X330N)
- modified F1MB (5-1/4", built around N8X300I + N8X330N)
- F1MBY (8", built around N8X300I + N8X330N)

The F1MB is described in my manuals, it's a controller for CDC 9404 or
9406 flexible 8" disk drives. It also contains the logic to control a
system operator panel (SOP). The F1MBY appears to be the same
controller, but with out the SOP interface. Now I need to find out if
any of them are a good fit for the CDC BR8A8A disk drives that I got.
Does anyone have any documentation on the FLDB card?

Tony, are you sure that the controller you thought was for X1215
cartridge disc drives wasn't instead an F1MB 8" floppy controller?

Cheers,

Camiel


From snhirsch at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 10:28:26 2012
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:28:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote:

> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>> 
>>>>> Is this SLIP or PPP?
>>>> 
>>>> Neither.  It's a well thought-out (and documented!) protocol for 
>>>> interface
>>>> between small 8-bit machines and modern hardware.  There's nothing
>>>> specific to the CoCo - that just happens to be the first implementation.
>>> 
>>> I just looked at it on sourceforge. It seems like the same setup of a
>>> Lantronix UDS or Wiznet-type device. Those are a little more portable.
>> 
>> In some respects. But those don't give you the virtual disk drive services 
>> that drivewire offers.
>
> For the Commodore users out there, you might want to look at the Comet from 
> http://www.commodoreserver.com.  They've got a new driver out that allows for 
> a 38.4k transfer rate on the USER port, which is a pretty big deal on a 
> Commodore 64.  I've got a Comet and it works VERY well.

Interesting, but it requires:

a) The purchase of a $50+ piece of hardware

b) That you store all your images on their web site.

DriveWire requires that you build a single cable (peanut expenditure) and 
let's you store things on your own computer.

Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend towards 
putting my own data on third-party remote sites.

Steve



-- 



From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun  5 10:28:26 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 09:28:26 -0600
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pa7KKVNWznf+5QKeKWwMLJzxZd6LmYawm8LcbZCi2PPNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKR1yuj_D3Vfjy=bKzqvCFQD-RCy4coUrFE+i8HUFQWofbSOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pa7KKVNWznf+5QKeKWwMLJzxZd6LmYawm8LcbZCi2PPNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1SbvgI-0004z6-SU@shell.xmission.com>


I was really hoping the V in the acronym was going to be VMS.

It's just another *nix box unless you're running VMS.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From n0body.h0me at inbox.com  Tue Jun  5 10:30:34 2012
From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 07:30:34 -0800
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <083901cd422d$5fcb4150$1f61c3f0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
 <cam2uow+5dju6mh+pbpbdt2ei-3ukad7uahtsk3n5dughqzym4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <cam2uowj6qa9=fahpocgqksobdc=hy7olnsgqbtjnt0cze0r-sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <snt137-ds1067aa7387c08ead5832d281080@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com>


So, what's the difference between a BC19s and a BC18z?
My suspicion is that it's either mechanical, or cosmetic
if they're electrically equivalent . . .


Jeff

> -----Original Message-----
> From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com
> Sent: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:38:07 +0100
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> 
> For the record, it turns out that the BC19S cable also works on a VCB02.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com]
>> Sent: 03 June 2012 18:59
>> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
>> Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
>> 
>> Thanks Glen, that looks like a really useful reference.
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Rob
>> 
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
>>> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick
>>> Sent: 03 June 2012 18:40
>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>>> Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
>>> 
>>> One last reply on this topic, this is a good reference page:
>>> 
>>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html
>>> 
>>> You might have to refer to any pinout information available in the
>>> VCB02 and VS3100 manuals to determine if there are any functional
>>> differences in the BC18Z and BC19S cables.
>>> 
>>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html#bc19s
>>> 
>>> BC19S Cable for Color Monitor
>>> 
>>> BC19S
>>> 
>>> Description:
>>> 
>>> VAXstation 3100 Color monitor cable, 10 feet long.
>>> 
>>> Specification:
>>> 
>>> 15-way D-type, female connector with fixing screws at the system end,
>>> and connector block with screw fixing at the monitor end. The
>>> connector block has the following connectors:
>>> 
>>>       * three BNC male connectors, on short leads, for the monitor.
>>>       * 4-way keyboard socket.
>>>       * 7-way socket for the mouse.
>>> 
>>> The 3 BNC connectors are embossed with the legend 'R', 'G', or 'B',
>>> and the short leads to which they are attached are Color coded red,
> green,
>> or blue.
>>> 
>>> Typical Usage:
>>> 
>>> Used with VAXstation 3100 models 30, 38, 48 (Color - not SPX). Also
>>> used with the VAXstation 2000 (Color).
>>> 
>>> Ordering Information:
>>> 
>>> BC19S-10 p/n 17-01480-01

____________________________________________________________
GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys
Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk? and most webmails





From sam.stran at ntlworld.com  Tue Jun  5 10:46:38 2012
From: sam.stran at ntlworld.com (susantha)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 16:46:38 +0100
Subject: Has anyone ever heard of theProtec Microsystems PRO-83?
In-Reply-To: <F177XEnSxHnYHraK2yR0001c412@hotmail.com>
References: <F177XEnSxHnYHraK2yR0001c412@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCE29DE.4090402@ntlworld.com>

Hi Robert,

Earlier this morning I was trying to program an AT90S1200 and got fed up 
reading the data sheets. I delving in my old box in search for my ZX80 
spectrum and with it came out Protec Microsystems Pro 83 single board 
computer. The board is intact with eprom in place. One capacitor has 
come loose but it is easy to see where it has come off from, so I think 
it is fixable.

The Pro-83 was given to me way back in 1983. I have never fired it up. I 
see on the casing the supply voltage is 9v and there is  voltage 
regulator attached down stream. On the PCB near the regulator the 
manufacturer has printed +8 on the positive side. this is the best 
information I have.

Have you powered your? and is it working. Please share any info that you 
have on this as I would like to fire it up one day.

Regards

Susantha Jayawardena
Surrey
UK


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Tue Jun  5 11:27:53 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 17:27:53 +0100
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com>
References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
 <cam2uow+5dju6mh+pbpbdt2ei-3ukad7uahtsk3n5dughqzym4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <cam2uowj6qa9=fahpocgqksobdc=hy7olnsgqbtjnt0cze0r-sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <snt137-ds1067aa7387c08ead5832d281080@phx.gbl>
 <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com>
Message-ID: <08e601cd4338$2992f9a0$7cb8ece0$@ntlworld.com>

Not having seen a BC18Z I can't say, but I could post photos of the BC19S if that helps. The BC19S has a block near the BNC connectors where you plug in the keyboard and mouse, it also has a screw sticking out of the block, I think it is designed to screw into certain CRTs to hold the block in place.

One thing I should have said, there was a bit of a blue cast. I don't think this is the cable though, it could be the card itself, or perhaps the monitor, but I don't have the means to verify this.

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of N0body H0me
> Sent: 05 June 2012 16:31
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> 
> 
> So, what's the difference between a BC19s and a BC18z?
> My suspicion is that it's either mechanical, or cosmetic if they're electrically
> equivalent . . .
> 
> 
> Jeff
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com
> > Sent: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:38:07 +0100
> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> >
> > For the record, it turns out that the BC19S cable also works on a VCB02.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com]
> >> Sent: 03 June 2012 18:59
> >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> >> Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> >>
> >> Thanks Glen, that looks like a really useful reference.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Rob
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> >>> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick
> >>> Sent: 03 June 2012 18:40
> >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> >>> Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> >>>
> >>> One last reply on this topic, this is a good reference page:
> >>>
> >>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html
> >>>
> >>> You might have to refer to any pinout information available in the
> >>> VCB02 and VS3100 manuals to determine if there are any functional
> >>> differences in the BC18Z and BC19S cables.
> >>>
> >>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html#bc19s
> >>>
> >>> BC19S Cable for Color Monitor
> >>>
> >>> BC19S
> >>>
> >>> Description:
> >>>
> >>> VAXstation 3100 Color monitor cable, 10 feet long.
> >>>
> >>> Specification:
> >>>
> >>> 15-way D-type, female connector with fixing screws at the system
> >>> end, and connector block with screw fixing at the monitor end. The
> >>> connector block has the following connectors:
> >>>
> >>>       * three BNC male connectors, on short leads, for the monitor.
> >>>       * 4-way keyboard socket.
> >>>       * 7-way socket for the mouse.
> >>>
> >>> The 3 BNC connectors are embossed with the legend 'R', 'G', or 'B',
> >>> and the short leads to which they are attached are Color coded red,
> > green,
> >> or blue.
> >>>
> >>> Typical Usage:
> >>>
> >>> Used with VAXstation 3100 models 30, 38, 48 (Color - not SPX). Also
> >>> used with the VAXstation 2000 (Color).
> >>>
> >>> Ordering Information:
> >>>
> >>> BC19S-10 p/n 17-01480-01
> 
> __________________________________________________________
> __
> GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at
> http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger,
> Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk? and most webmails
> 





From abs at absd.org  Tue Jun  5 11:38:04 2012
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 17:38:04 +0100
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <E1SbvgI-0004z6-SU@shell.xmission.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKR1yuj_D3Vfjy=bKzqvCFQD-RCy4coUrFE+i8HUFQWofbSOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pa7KKVNWznf+5QKeKWwMLJzxZd6LmYawm8LcbZCi2PPNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1SbvgI-0004z6-SU@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pbt1bssrnPPdmmcxm-menfsHtYyG7Sea6UAUM-MgEimUA@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 June 2012 16:28, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>
> I was really hoping the V in the acronym was going to be VMS.

That certainly would have been much more impressive!
Given the amount of entertainment from some of the packages getting
them working on the VAX platform on a current supported OS, that would
have been a whole new level :)

> It's just another *nix box unless you're running VMS.

Granted, though I would contest its at least an interesting
(hardware-wise) *nix box :)

Retro-computing has various strands - emulators provide massive
accessibility for running old software for those without access to
original hardware, and some of us like running current software on
retro-hardware. I feel there is real benefit for current developers to
remain aware of the characteristics of past hardware, and running
current as well as contemporary software helps, but that may just be
me :)


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 11:40:16 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 09:40:16 -0700
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <08e601cd4338$2992f9a0$7cb8ece0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
 <cam2uow+5dju6mh+pbpbdt2ei-3ukad7uahtsk3n5dughqzym4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <cam2uowj6qa9=fahpocgqksobdc=hy7olnsgqbtjnt0cze0r-sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <snt137-ds1067aa7387c08ead5832d281080@phx.gbl>
 <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com>
 <08e601cd4338$2992f9a0$7cb8ece0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKLqsz8NDh=JxpcXUcsYppAz2hOs=9oe3tZoLp8zk5QPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Not having seen a BC18Z I can't say, but I could post photos of the BC19S if that helps. The BC19S has a block near the BNC connectors where you plug in the keyboard and mouse, it also has a screw sticking out of the block, I think it is designed to screw into certain CRTs to hold the block in place.
>

Does it look just like this, but maybe shorter?

http://www.circuitsurgeon.com/forsale/bc18z.jpg
(not my picture, just found it on the net)

How long is your BC19S?  I think the BC18Z I have is a -25 foot
version, which is a bit longer than I need.



From james at slor.net  Tue Jun  5 11:40:53 2012
From: james at slor.net (James)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 12:40:53 -0400
Subject: Wanted: Original Kaypro 16 floppies
Message-ID: <00b701cd4339$fa0c9d60$ee25d820$@slor.net>

I've been looking for an original floppy disk set for my Kaypro 16 (not 16/2
or any others) for a while now.  Anyone on this list have a set to part
with?  Or, worst case, anyone have a set they could copy/image for me?

Thanks!
James



From swtpc6800 at comcast.net  Tue Jun  5 12:04:55 2012
From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:04:55 -0700
Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles
In-Reply-To: <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net>

The Tektronix 4051 proper name appears to be a Graphic Computing System. I
updated the Wikimedia description. I also added a press release from the
October 30, 1975 issue of Electronics to my web site.

"Terminal Talks Basic". Electronics (New York: McGraw-Hill) 42 (22): p. 120.
October 30, 1975. 
http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Microprocessors/Microprocessor_History.htm

A few weeks ago I was at a small gathering of former Data I/O employees. I
sat next to Larry Mayhew who was the CEO in the 1980s. When I mentioned my
Motorola 6800 interest (Data I/O programmers used them) he recalled the
Tektronix 4051. His previous job was the Tektronix VP in charge of that
product line. He knew the details of the product and thought it was a good
design. He had a different view of the 4052. To improve performance, the
designers use an AMD bit-slice processor. It had to emulate the 6800 so the
existing software base could be used. Larry said this product was a
disaster, it didn't run much faster. Sales were poor so he had to cancel the
product.

Here is a web site that has information on the Tektronix 4050 series.
http://www.electronixandmore.com/articles/teksystem.html

Michael Holley

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Josh Dersch
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:45 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles

On 6/5/2012 12:29 AM, Richard wrote:
> In article<4FCDA873.1030407 at mail.msu.edu>,
>      Josh Dersch<derschjo at mail.msu.edu>  writes:
>
>> I'll be pedantic and note that the Tektronix 4051 isn't really a 
>> terminal, it's a general-purpose computer (with BASIC built in).  But 
>> I'm sure it could also act as a pretty decent terminal with the right 
>> software :).
> There's a continuum between classic "glass tty" terminals on one end 
> and full blown personal computers on the other.  Tektronix wasn't the 
> only manufacturer to recognize this.  Add local storage and some sort 
> of operating system (BASIC in ROM will do) to a terminal and you have 
> a personal computer.

Sure, but the 4051 doesn't really sit in the "slightly modified terminal"
mold -- it didn't come with RS-232 connectivity built in (it had GPIB and a
pointer input, IIRC).  RS-232 was an optional add-on, as was the software
that allowed it to behave as a terminal.  The 4051 was a built to be a
computer first, and was sold as a "Graphic Computing System."  
(http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Tektronix/Tektronix.4051.
1976.102646254.pdf)

It may possibly have started at Tek as a "hey, let's take a 401x terminal
and make a computer out of it" but I don't really understand why that means
the end result is considered a Terminal in any way  (or why it's useful to
categorize it in such a way).  (And in this case, did any other Tek
terminals prior to (or after?) the 4051 use a 6800?  
Wouldn't the lack of any such beast point to the 4051 as being purpose-built
as a computer, and not the evolution of a terminal design?)

- Josh

>
> On the terminals wiki I have a category for terminals like this:
> <http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Local_Process
> ing>
>
> There is also that middle ground where the terminal has local storage, 
> but no local programming environment:
> <http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Local_Storage
> >
>
> Most terminals that had local processing had local storage, but not 
> always.  Some were intended to be locally programmable by downloading 
> a program from the host.



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Jun  5 12:15:05 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:15:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: A "rose" by any other name (Was: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206051108570.19228@linuxserv.home>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>
 <20120604080734.C95864@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206051108570.19228@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <20120605083754.E33659@shell.lmi.net>

> > I am cognizant of the differences, and the sloppiness of the terminology,
> > and CHOSE to attempt to reply to the original poster using the
> > terminology that he had used.  I do have sample diskettes from hundreds

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Christian Corti wrote:
> So he won't be able to learn the correct terminology as soon as possible.

PLEASE select SHORT and ACCURATE (mutually exclusive) terms for the types
of 5.25" drives.
SERIOUSLY.   We are giving each other hell over sloppiness and
inexactitude in the terminology, but WHAT terms could be used, instead,
that are accurate, but short enough that people will actually USE them?

"Drive type 7" (for FLOPPIES!) did NOT catch on.  (That was an attempt in
DRIVER.SYS)
http://users.cybercity.dk/~bse26236/batutil/help/DRIVER_S.HTM

Calling them "360K", "720K" (not to be confused with 3.5"), or "1.2M"
drives is unambiguous, but VERY OFFENSIVELY sloppy.  We all know, and as
Allison itemized, a "360K" drive can be from about 60K to about 440K.
ALSO, "360K" could be misinterpreted to refer to some SSDD 96tpi formats.

In order to avoid THAT offense, I called them "HD" and "DD" drives, as the
original poster had.  THAT action ignored the SSSD (unusual), DSSD
(unusual), DSDD and SSDD 96tpi drives, and invoked your ire.  Sorry about that.

"QUAD density" is very offensive.  It is NOT an increase in "density",
but, instead, an increase in capacity.  "DD-96tpi" would be better, but
how many here would OBJECT to assuming "DD" is 48tpi unless specified
otherwise?

(just as using both sides is NOT an increase in "density"):
"SUPER DENSITY", abbreviated "SD"!!!  (DSDD 96tpi) as used by Intertec
(Superbrain) was called that because it was "higher density than our
'quad density'" (SSDD 96tpi).  It is SO silly and stupid that it is
hard not to laugh.  I don't know.  Is it funny enough to over-ride its
extreme offensiveness?

"HD" is also offensive.  It is NOT a change in recording method, and
hardly qualifies as "high" (although the marketing people might have
been!)  it is just normal "MFM" at twice the data transfer rate but
similar (300/360) RPM.

"SD" is offensive to some disk design engineers.  "It is really 'HALF
density', with two flux transition positions per bit!"
"DD" is offensive to some disk design engineers.  "It is NOT double.  It
is still less than one bit per flux transition.  It is 'double' only in
terms of the data transfer rate, which is NOT the same as the 'density'".

BTW, if you do historical searches (NOT just current Google, or even
"Wayback"), you will find that "double density" as a TERM existed before
"single density" existed as a TERM!  Likewise, "World War Two" is
mentioned in earlier newspapers than "World War One" is!   Neither
"single density" nor "World War One" were called that (they had other
names) until the other one came along and had been discussed for a while.   :-)


> > OK, YOU explain to the original poster why he will or will not have
> > problems writing Kaypro2, Apple2, Commodore diskettes using the "1.2M"
> > drive from an IBM 5170.  He will need to know about coercivity, LATER,
>
> We won't have any problem if the target system uses 96 tpi drives too. I
> have some 80 track Apple2 drives,

When somebody says that they want to write to Apple2 disks, you assume
that they are talking about 96tpi?

THAT is the dumbest excuse    :-)

YES, it is possible to put 96tpi (AND 100TPI) drives on an Apple2.  When
somebody asks about writing Apple2 diskettes, what do you THINK they are
talking about?
I've used 3" diskettes (NO, NOT 3.5") on Apple2 (pre-Amstrad Amdek).
Perhaps we should assume that THAT is what he is asking about?

> could use (or even will have to use) that drive to write those kind of
> disks. The whole point is that you can't give a definite answer without
> knowing the details of the source system (where the disks are written) and
> the target system (where they are to be used).

One can never give a definitive answer, unless you also personally examine
the system, and MEASURE all components.

Paraphrasing the original question (drive models added for
disambiguation):
"I am setting up an external drive system for use with DisKFerret and
CatWeasel for reading and writing diskettes that stock FDC has
difficulties with, such as Apple2, TRS80Model1, Commodore64, etc.
"I have a some "DD" drives (Teac FFB and SA455) and some "HD" drives
(Teac55F and SA475).  Which of the two types of drives do you suggest that
I use?  Will the "HD" drives give me trouble?


> > when he selects blank media to use.  But, right now, for selesting which
> > DRIVE to mount in the case, he does NOT need to be concerned with flux
> > transition rate, disk total capacity, options of alternate physical
> > formats, or variant exceptions to the "standard" formats.
>
> Why not? Doesn't he have the right to learn those things?
ABSOLUTELY, IN ADDITION to the simple answer, NOT INSTEAD of it.
The FIRST response was a misreading of the question (sloppy terminology,
again), and misinterpreted his question as being about which media to use.
He WILL need to know that, if he doesn't already, but NOT UNTIL he has
connected the drive.  He ASKED about selecting the drive.

> This thread has enough simple answers; why not give an additional more
> exhaustive answer to the matter?
ABSOLUTELY, IN ADDITION to the simple answer, NOT INSTEAD of it.
And yet, you apparently took offense at Allison's summation and
itemization of the disk types!

I submit that my grumpiness is not unique here.

> > The issue for the original poster was whether he should use a "DD"  drive
> > or an "HD" drive.  Those were HIS terms.  HE was not referring with "DD
>
> The issue of the OP was no issue at all. If I read that correctly, he
> simply wants to read files off of standard MS-DOS disks.

YOU are thinking of the WordPervert question (around the same time).
THIS was about external flux transition drive box.
TWO DIFFERENT THREADS!
Is THAT what we're arguing about?
I went back and noticed that you replied to BOTH threads in consecutive
messages.  Later, in THIS discussion, I find that I conflated both of
those two replies.  :-)

> Sure, he wants to read bog standard MS-DOS disks. So the answer is: Just
> get a drive and try it.
OTHER thread

> And BTW, usually you can recognise "HD" floppies
> fairly easily because most don't have the hub reinforcement ring. And

and using YOUR give exhaustive instead of over-simplification exhortation,
. . . :-)
The diskettes that existed during the first year or two of the TRS80 and
Apple2 did NOT have hub rings.  Tht included Verbatim (prior to their
redesign of "Datalife"), Memorex, Dysan? BASF, etc.
Hub rings were introduced LATER.
It was easy to add hub rings to disks.  Inmac (GIGANTIC mail-order
office supply in USA) sold kits for that (as well as the Berkeley
Microcomputer Flip-Jig) NOT ALL early disks got retrofitted with hub
rings!
Therefore, a disk without a hubring is an early 5.25" "SSSD" ("Single Sided Single Density")
OR an early 5.25" "DSSD"
OR an early 5.25" "SSDD"
OR an early 5.25" "DSDD"
OR a 5.25" "DSHD"
A disk WITH a hubring is either a LATER "low density" :-) disk, OR an "HD"
disk that was owned by somebody who had been in it since the early days,
and hadn't yet run out of hub-rings in their retrofit kit.
(In another DIFFERENT thread recently, Eric Smith asked about hub-rings to
replenish his retrofit kit)

Similarly, in identifying drives, . . .   :-)
LOTS of confusion existed, since the drives look similar.  VERY similar.
IBM "solved" the problem, in typical IBM form, by embossing a "star" on
the front-plate of the "360K" drives that they made from then on.  It
never occurred to them that they would get better saturation if they did
it to the NEW type of drive, instead.  Therefore, a drive with a star
is a "360K" drive made after the introduction of "1.2M" drives by
somebody affiliated with, or copying, IBM;
a drive WITHOUT a star is a "1.2M" drive, OR a "360K" drive made before
the introduction of "1.2M"  drives, OR a drive made by anybody who didn't
give a fig what IBM did.

> next: Usually the characteristics are written on the disk label.
LESS THAN HALF of the ones in USA!

> For "HD"  disks, here are some examples:
> "HD" floppies
>    Disky HD 2 (Doebbelin&Boeder)
That brand is UNKNOWN in USA.
(But you probably weren't subjected to ones such as "Elephant")

I, ALSO. conflated the two threads.  All of the above is from the
"Re: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives"
thread about external flux transition drive box.
However, the below is from the
"Re: Copying 5.25 inch floppy disks"
thread about WordPervert disks in a stock drive system.


> > Another poster pointed out that the original poster had referred to his
> > diskettes as FDDs, and asked how you copy a Floppy Disk Drive.  Being from
> > a "Fantasia" generation, I can't help but visualize Mickey Mouse as The
> Oh come on! That was me, and there was a smiley. Sorry, but you really
> give your nick name "Grumpy Ol' Fred" all honours!

. . . and I thought that it was a great silly response.  You didn't
NEED a smiley.  If people need smilies to understand that Jonathan Swift
or Douglas Admas are speaking humourously, then the world is a sad place.
(although admittedly, somebody who is over-saturated with American "HUMOR"
might not get British HUMOUR.)  I'm sorry that you did not find the
imagery of things duplicating out of control, with its overly silly
presentation in "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" in Disney's "Fantasia", funny.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 12:41:26 2012
From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 13:41:26 -0400
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pbt1bssrnPPdmmcxm-menfsHtYyG7Sea6UAUM-MgEimUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKR1yuj_D3Vfjy=bKzqvCFQD-RCy4coUrFE+i8HUFQWofbSOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pa7KKVNWznf+5QKeKWwMLJzxZd6LmYawm8LcbZCi2PPNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1SbvgI-0004z6-SU@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAGN_6pbt1bssrnPPdmmcxm-menfsHtYyG7Sea6UAUM-MgEimUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHfSdrUkZeZJTguRodUY3QE4fk_QvsZe4e83OTTDjN4e-CL7iA@mail.gmail.com>

Personally, I tend to think that if you have a VAX, it would be more
fun to use VMS, WASD (a native web server for VMS with lots of cool
features including support for all the usual web languages plus DCL)
and the database of your choice (either native RMS tables for simple
stuff, Rdb if you can get it or MySQL if you can't) than to try and
get some BSD-based system set up.

Mike


From brain at jbrain.com  Tue Jun  5 12:49:15 2012
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:49:15 -0500
Subject: A "rose" by any other name (Was: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <20120605083754.E33659@shell.lmi.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>
 <20120604080734.C95864@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206051108570.19228@linuxserv.home>
 <20120605083754.E33659@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FCE469B.9030306@jbrain.com>

The sad part about this is that some enthusiasts like me, come away from 
the discussion with the following points:

  * Just don't ask about something in here, because it could be
    controversial, and instead of getting some guidance, you'll get
    mountains of pedantic information, interspersed in a most unhelpful
    way, in between rantings from list members.
  * These people must just love to antagonize one another, even though
    they claim to use the list in a civil way as $diety intended (no top
    posting, etc.)
  * If I have the intestinal fortitude to wade through all of the
    postings, I'll leave more confused than I was starting out.

Cue the "Well, that's how the list is supposed to work, deal with it" 
crowd...

Jim



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Jun  5 12:55:53 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:55:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206051100440.19228@linuxserv.home>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>
 <4FCCC317.10400@verizon.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206051100440.19228@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <20120605105123.L33659@shell.lmi.net>

> On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Allison wrote:
> > On 06/04/2012 04:54 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
> >> How on earth do you come to that conclusion? I have enough 96tpi "DD"
> >> drives. I think you mix up track density and recording density, two
> >> unrelated things.
> > There are two common track density 48 and 96 tpi or otherwise said
> > 40 and 80 cylinders.  there are more tracks/cylinders to the radial inch.
> > Also the head width is narrower by two for the 96tpi.
> > Recording density is experssed in FRPI Flux Reversals per Inch.
> > The problem with floppies is that for 5.25 you had:
> [...]

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Christian Corti wrote:
> I know that all very well, it's not to me that you have to explain it ;-)

Although it would be easy to assume that she were admonishing you, keep in
mind that she was probably intending merely to summarize and make the
discussion comprehensive.  I interpreted her remarks, in spite of using
yours as an intro, as being to the entire list, and attempting to make a
thorough discussion, rather than a specific item reply.

Also, she has no way of knowing what you do or don't know.  We need to
avoid being offended when somebody underestimates our existing knowledge.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From silent700 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 12:56:47 2012
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 12:56:47 -0500
Subject: Mystery Panel
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SEbbu+Ku+WROeLw1fhUCjmiADBt-FAmiM2mYdGJwMZLEQ@mail.gmail.com>

I received this 23" panel strip recently along with a large lot of
unrelated (DEC) items.  I've tried some creative googling but have
been unable to ID it.  I'm hoping somewhere here may have encountered
it in their past travels.  Here is a gallery of pics:

https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/MysteryTelcoPanel

Whatever it came from, it appears to be hand-wired with great care,
perhaps even a one-off for its particular application.  I thought at
first it was telco-related, rather than computing, being a 23" rather
than 19" mount. That may still be the case.  Or, it could be both,
given the intersection of the two industries.

So, do those panel codes stir up any memories here?

-- 
jht


From ss at allegro.com  Tue Jun  5 12:58:49 2012
From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:58:49 -0700
Subject: Converting terminals into computers (was: Re: 1970s microprocessor
 magazine articles)
In-Reply-To: <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com>


On Jun 5, 2012, at 12:44 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> 
> Sure, but the 4051 doesn't really sit in the "slightly modified terminal" mold
...
> 
> It may possibly have started at Tek as a "hey, let's take a 401x terminal and make a computer out of it" 


Perhaps a common aspiration back then :)

According to Wirt Atmar (of AICS, and now passed away), HP came to him about when the Apple 1
was introduced, asking him if the HP2640A could be converted into a personal computer.
(see: http://www.aics-research.com/history6.html )

The analysis at the time was: yes, but it would be so expensive it wouldn't succeed.
(The HP 2640A was already a very expensive terminal!)

(Of course, later TinyBASIC was ported to the HP2645A)

Stan


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Jun  5 13:08:59 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:08:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: A "rose" by any other name (Was: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCE469B.9030306@jbrain.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>
 <20120604080734.C95864@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206051108570.19228@linuxserv.home>
 <20120605083754.E33659@shell.lmi.net> <4FCE469B.9030306@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <20120605105755.M33659@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Jim Brain wrote:
> The sad part about this is that some enthusiasts like me, come away from
> the discussion with the following points:
>   * Just don't ask about something in here, because it could be
>     controversial, and instead of getting some guidance, you'll get
>     mountains of pedantic information, interspersed in a most unhelpful
>     way, in between rantings from list members.
>   * These people must just love to antagonize one another, even though
>     they claim to use the list in a civil way as $diety intended (no top
>     posting, etc.)
>   * If I have the intestinal fortitude to wade through all of the
>     postings, I'll leave more confused than I was starting out.
> Cue the "Well, that's how the list is supposed to work, deal with it"
> crowd...

Believe it or not, that is close to the points that I was trying to make,
although I was probably more part of the problem than part of the
solution.     I have a few corrections, clarifications, and partial
retractions to make to that post; perhaps what little help they might be
is overshadowed by the contrroversies.



We really do need to standardize a set of drive type names, since "HD" and
"DD" drives is apparently NOT unambiguous to some of us!  (and created
this entire fiasco)  But, full ACCURATE specification is too long to be
usable.

Since "Drive type 2" is not going to catch on, I propose "DD48", "DD96",
and "HD96", with an implicit agreement that we'll call them that inspite
of any exceptions and deviations, such as using those DRIVE types for
single density.
Does THAT work OK for everybody?




OB_pedantic:  Few realize the correct attribution of "If you're not part
of the solution, you're part of the problem!"    Eldridge Cleaver!


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 13:18:15 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:18:15 -0700
Subject: Converting terminals into computers (was: Re: 1970s
 microprocessor magazine articles)
In-Reply-To: <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com>
 <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com>
 <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
 <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKFNxK5fAoo=XudEz1-ump9c4p1TadsOGH+WrgZ9G6E9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 5, 2012 11:11 AM, "Stan Sieler" <ss at allegro.com> wrote:
>
> According to Wirt Atmar (of AICS, and now passed away), HP came to him
about when the Apple 1
> was introduced, asking him if the HP2640A could be converted into a
personal computer.
> (see: http://www.aics-research.com/history6.html )
>
> The analysis at the time was: yes, but it would be so expensive it
wouldn't succeed.
> (The HP 2640A was already a very expensive terminal!)
>
> (Of course, later TinyBASIC was ported to the HP2645A)
>
> Stan

I have an HP 2647F.  Similar to the other terminals in that series except
it has two floppy drives. If I remember correctly the FDC board contains a
Z-80 while the main CPU card uses the standard 8080A for that series.
Capable of running BASIC.


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun  5 13:33:08 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 14:33:08 -0400
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <CAHfSdrUkZeZJTguRodUY3QE4fk_QvsZe4e83OTTDjN4e-CL7iA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKR1yuj_D3Vfjy=bKzqvCFQD-RCy4coUrFE+i8HUFQWofbSOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pa7KKVNWznf+5QKeKWwMLJzxZd6LmYawm8LcbZCi2PPNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1SbvgI-0004z6-SU@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAGN_6pbt1bssrnPPdmmcxm-menfsHtYyG7Sea6UAUM-MgEimUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHfSdrUkZeZJTguRodUY3QE4fk_QvsZe4e83OTTDjN4e-CL7iA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCE50E4.8050204@neurotica.com>

On 06/05/2012 01:41 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote:
> Personally, I tend to think that if you have a VAX, it would be more
> fun to use VMS, WASD (a native web server for VMS with lots of cool
> features including support for all the usual web languages plus DCL)
> and the database of your choice (either native RMS tables for simple
> stuff, Rdb if you can get it or MySQL if you can't) than to try and
> get some BSD-based system set up.

  Perhaps, but much of today's web services are run on some flavor of
UNIX (usually Linux, but that's a less-important distinction) along with
Apache, PHP, and MySQL.  Doing this means 75% of preexisting "web apps"
(hate that term) will just plug in and run.  I'm not the guy who did
this, and I don't know what his motivation was, but to me, this is less
about fun and more about proving, usually to curmudgeons, that VAXen can
do quite a bit of real work.

  I applaud his work.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From ajp166 at verizon.net  Tue Jun  5 13:33:19 2012
From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 14:33:19 -0400
Subject: A "rose" by any other name (Was: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <20120605083754.E33659@shell.lmi.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206031605110.10642@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <20120603163414.W67443@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206041052540.8488@linuxserv.home>
 <20120604080734.C95864@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206051108570.19228@linuxserv.home>
 <20120605083754.E33659@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FCE50EF.7080603@verizon.net>

On 06/05/2012 01:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>> I am cognizant of the differences, and the sloppiness of the terminology,
>>> and CHOSE to attempt to reply to the original poster using the
>>> terminology that he had used.  I do have sample diskettes from hundreds
> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Christian Corti wrote:
>> So he won't be able to learn the correct terminology as soon as possible.
> PLEASE select SHORT and ACCURATE (mutually exclusive) terms for the types
> of 5.25" drives.
> SERIOUSLY.   We are giving each other hell over sloppiness and
> inexactitude in the terminology, but WHAT terms could be used, instead,
> that are accurate, but short enough that people will actually USE them?
>
> "Drive type 7" (for FLOPPIES!) did NOT catch on.  (That was an attempt in
> DRIVER.SYS)
> http://users.cybercity.dk/~bse26236/batutil/help/DRIVER_S.HTM
>
I don't like that either...  ;)  Its PC specific and lacks precision
as PC do just about anything that suits them (designer).

My HB system has:

5.25", two sided, 96tpi, 300rpm.

It's formating the media as:

MFM 250kb/sec, 9 sectors, 512bytes sector (low data rate mode)
MFM 500kb/sec, 9 sectors, 512bytes sector (high data rate speed mode)


organized as:

(low mode)
Cylinder 0  and cylinder 1, reserved as system boot track (CP/M)
track 2 through 79 side 0 and 1 as data/directory
data storage formatted 360kb

OR( High mode)

No reserved tracks as system boot track (CP/M)
track 0 through 79 side 0 and 1 as data/directory
data storage formatted 737kb



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun  5 13:42:24 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 14:42:24 -0400
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo>
Message-ID: <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>

On 06/05/2012 11:28 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> Interesting, but it requires:
> 
> a) The purchase of a $50+ piece of hardware
> 
> b) That you store all your images on their web site.
> 
> DriveWire requires that you build a single cable (peanut expenditure)
> and let's you store things on your own computer.
> 
> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend towards
> putting my own data on third-party remote sites.

  *applause*

  THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It!

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Tue Jun  5 13:57:24 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:57:24 +0100
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKLqsz8NDh=JxpcXUcsYppAz2hOs=9oe3tZoLp8zk5QPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
 <cam2uow+5dju6mh+pbpbdt2ei-3ukad7uahtsk3n5dughqzym4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <cam2uowj6qa9=fahpocgqksobdc=hy7olnsgqbtjnt0cze0r-sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <snt137-ds1067aa7387c08ead5832d281080@phx.gbl>
 <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com>
 <08e601cd4338$2992f9a0$7cb8ece0$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAM2UOwKLqsz8NDh=JxpcXUcsYppAz2hOs=9oe3tZoLp8zk5QPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <08f301cd434d$0cc9ffc0$265dff40$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick
> Sent: 05 June 2012 17:40
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> 
> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
> > Not having seen a BC18Z I can't say, but I could post photos of the
BC19S if
> that helps. The BC19S has a block near the BNC connectors where you plug
in
> the keyboard and mouse, it also has a screw sticking out of the block, I
think
> it is designed to screw into certain CRTs to hold the block in place.
> >
> 
> Does it look just like this, but maybe shorter?
> 
> http://www.circuitsurgeon.com/forsale/bc18z.jpg
> (not my picture, just found it on the net)
> 
> How long is your BC19S?  I think the BC18Z I have is a -25 foot version,
which
> is a bit longer than I need.

The one I have is about 10 feet long, although I have not measured it.

Regards

Rob




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun  5 14:03:22 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 15:03:22 -0400
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pbt1bssrnPPdmmcxm-menfsHtYyG7Sea6UAUM-MgEimUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKR1yuj_D3Vfjy=bKzqvCFQD-RCy4coUrFE+i8HUFQWofbSOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pa7KKVNWznf+5QKeKWwMLJzxZd6LmYawm8LcbZCi2PPNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1SbvgI-0004z6-SU@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAGN_6pbt1bssrnPPdmmcxm-menfsHtYyG7Sea6UAUM-MgEimUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCE57FA.9020709@neurotica.com>

On 06/05/2012 12:38 PM, David Brownlee wrote:
>> I was really hoping the V in the acronym was going to be VMS.
> 
> That certainly would have been much more impressive!
> Given the amount of entertainment from some of the packages getting
> them working on the VAX platform on a current supported OS, that would
> have been a whole new level :)
> 
>> It's just another *nix box unless you're running VMS.
> 
> Granted, though I would contest its at least an interesting
> (hardware-wise) *nix box :)
> 
> Retro-computing has various strands - emulators provide massive
> accessibility for running old software for those without access to
> original hardware, and some of us like running current software on
> retro-hardware. I feel there is real benefit for current developers to
> remain aware of the characteristics of past hardware, and running
> current as well as contemporary software helps, but that may just be
> me :)

  I think this is a wonderful piece of work.  Congrats on getting it
running!  I'm sure that was no easy feat, especially with the VAX's lack
of IEEE floating point support. (which everything seems to depend on
nowadays, whether it does one whit of math or not!)

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From d235j.1 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 14:16:44 2012
From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:16:44 -0400
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCCC7FE.23577.120A956@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com> <m1SbdJ9-000J4TC@p850ug1>
 <4FCCC7FE.23577.120A956@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3bDi55cxDXMTMSm+wxtf3yMq3NK52yjwbre2b8wTyCOhtyCA@mail.gmail.com>

> But the Drivetek 320 drives had two
> edge connectors--one 34-position, the other 8-position, in an
> arrangement such that you could make contact with both using a 50
> position edge connector.
>
> Embedded servo. ?I wonder if the Epson also uses that...
>
> Later Kodak drives don't have the second connector.
>


How much technical information is out there for these Kodak drives? I
just picked up a couple to modify for reading difficult (and
nonstandard TPI) drives. I found the QNX driver for these, but have a
hard time finding any more... They sure are interesting. I took scans
and read out the 6805's ROM contents and stuck them up on
http://dec8.info/pictures/Kodak%203.3Mb%205.25%20drive/ in case anyone
is interested.

-Dave



From d235j.1 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 14:18:27 2012
From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:18:27 -0400
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <CAB3bDi55cxDXMTMSm+wxtf3yMq3NK52yjwbre2b8wTyCOhtyCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com> <m1SbdJ9-000J4TC@p850ug1>
 <4FCCC7FE.23577.120A956@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAB3bDi55cxDXMTMSm+wxtf3yMq3NK52yjwbre2b8wTyCOhtyCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3bDi44r=Z7agJ8eRtW-ipFUB=-OkW+qf282=Q3EFPnwM9pCw@mail.gmail.com>

By the way, we're also interested in other versions of this firmware
for analysis. The chip is difficult to read out (we had to use the
BPDos software with a BP-1200 EPROM programmer since the Windows
software would only produce inconsistent dumps). Apparently Jameco has
this chip available, but I've heard mixed reports as to their
reliability.

--Dave

> How much technical information is out there for these Kodak drives? I
> just picked up a couple to modify for reading difficult (and
> nonstandard TPI) drives. I found the QNX driver for these, but have a
> hard time finding any more... They sure are interesting. I took scans
> and read out the 6805's ROM contents and stuck them up on
> http://dec8.info/pictures/Kodak%203.3Mb%205.25%20drive/ in case anyone
> is interested.
>
> -Dave


From abs at absd.org  Tue Jun  5 14:24:59 2012
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:24:59 +0100
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <4FCE57FA.9020709@neurotica.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKR1yuj_D3Vfjy=bKzqvCFQD-RCy4coUrFE+i8HUFQWofbSOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pa7KKVNWznf+5QKeKWwMLJzxZd6LmYawm8LcbZCi2PPNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1SbvgI-0004z6-SU@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAGN_6pbt1bssrnPPdmmcxm-menfsHtYyG7Sea6UAUM-MgEimUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCE57FA.9020709@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pYdr2AV07yYtqzWGqSN=yKVb_2xgSG8F99t-Qpc-cAGdA@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 June 2012 20:03, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
>
> ?I think this is a wonderful piece of work. ?Congrats on getting it
> running! ?I'm sure that was no easy feat, especially with the VAX's lack
> of IEEE floating point support. (which everything seems to depend on
> nowadays, whether it does one whit of math or not!)

Thanks - most of the entertainment is documented on the page :),
though the fact strtod() doesn't play well with D-FLOAT numbers is
proving tricky. That code is quite gnarly and some of the defines are
decidedly non-obvious.

MySQL still seems to be SEGVing on startup, which I'll get back to
when I have some time - for now wopr is building PostgreSQL, which has
always been my preferred SQL database anyway. I'd put something like
MongoDB on it to tick the NoSQL box, but that needs python to build,
which fails due to missing libffi :/

Anyway, next big challenge for me is going to be to work out why the
keyboard and mouse are happy on the console but misbehave under X :)



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Jun  5 14:26:52 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:26:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo>
 <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Interesting, but it requires:
>> b) That you store all your images on their web site.

>> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend
>> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites.

>   *applause*

>   THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It!

You're not alone, you two...though it sure can feel like it sometimes,
I know.

Especially when the third-party remote site is in a place with
substantially weaker privacy protection than is provided locally, which
is often the case since many - most? - of the third-party sites in
question are in the USA, with all the depressing implications that has
for privacy.  (Of course, for people already in the USA, this may not
be as big a deal.)

There are reasons I, for example, run my own mailserver, and this is
one of them.  I don't trust anyone else with my mail, especially not
someone off in another country.  My offsite backups take the form of
two disks which I swap weekly, keeping the non-live one a few miles
from my place.  That sort of thing.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Tue Jun  5 14:37:23 2012
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:37:23 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <02a001cd4307$c763f020$562bd060$@gmail.com>
References: <01ff01cd4241$c49ca4c0$4dd5ee40$@camicom.com> from "Camiel
 Vanderhoeven" at Jun 4, 12 01:04:09 pm <m1SbcRb-000J4iC@p850ug1>
 <02a001cd4307$c763f020$562bd060$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCE5FF3.1080305@bluewin.ch>

On 06/05/2012 12:41 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
>>> .        2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859)
>>> .        3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859)
>> What technology does this CPU use? 2900 bit-slice, ASICs, or what? The
>> P854 CPU is 3 cards, I think, one of which is the MMU (and one of the
>> others an IOP?, I would have to check the manuals). The P851 CPU is
>> a signle board, using Philips bitslice ICs...
> 2900 bit-slice.

Sure of this ?

My P856 ( 12nc 5111 100 05701 ) and P857 ( 12nc 5111 100 05702 ) CPU boards
definitely have 4 x74181 datapath, and 6 x 82s115 PROM microcode.

That would mean Philips reimplemented the same CPU twice.
Somehow it does not surprise me...
My MCU3 boards also have a different 12nc number compared to yours. ( 5111 100 05582 )


> This card has 178 14 and 16 pin chips on it, all 74xx logic except for four that are marked "F 9301 DC"

F9301 is also TTL , from Fairchild 1 - 10 decoder


If your documents list a LSM16 board, I'd like to know what it is. That's a mystery board I have .
(12nc 5111 100 06641 )



Jos


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun  5 14:53:59 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:53:59 -0700
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <CAB3bDi55cxDXMTMSm+wxtf3yMq3NK52yjwbre2b8wTyCOhtyCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FCCC7FE.23577.120A956@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <CAB3bDi55cxDXMTMSm+wxtf3yMq3NK52yjwbre2b8wTyCOhtyCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCE0167.10016.F03F6B@cclist.sydex.com>

On 5 Jun 2012 at 15:16, David Ryskalczyk wrote:

> How much technical information is out there for these Kodak drives? I
> just picked up a couple to modify for reading difficult (and
> nonstandard TPI) drives. I found the QNX driver for these, but have a
> hard time finding any more... They sure are interesting. I took scans
> and read out the 6805's ROM contents and stuck them up on
> http://dec8.info/pictures/Kodak%203.3Mb%205.25%20drive/ in case anyone
> is interested.

I've got a Drivetek OEM manual for the 320, but it's not nearly as 
detailed as other OEM manuals.  It discusses the basic philosophy of 
the positioner, embedded servo, 600 RPM, etc., but no schematics or 
anything other than the pinout for the 34-position connector.  At 
least that's what I remember without actually going digging for it.

The service literature for the Kaypro Robie may offer some additional 
clues, but I suspect that there's not much, if anything, there 
either.

I've worked on hard drives with embedded servo, the first being the 
never-relased Ontrack 5.25" drive.  There, the mechanism was a rather 
complicated mechanical affair that used a system of sleeves and 
solenoids to create a binary-encoded positioner.  There's certainly a 
patent circa early 1980s somewhere on that thing, even if it never 
saw the light of day.

--Chuck





From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Jun  5 13:18:59 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:18:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051115130.7751@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Mouse wrote:

>>> Interesting, but it requires:
>>> b) That you store all your images on their web site.
>
>>> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend
>>> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites.
>
>>   *applause*
>
>>   THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It!
>
> You're not alone, you two...though it sure can feel like it sometimes,
> I know.
>
It's a fun gadget for a 30 year old computer.  Get over yourselves.

I'll be the first to say that if you don't physically control the hardware 
your data is stored on, you don't control your data.  However, whining 
about storing disk images for your Commodore 64 on a remote site is just 
f*cking stupid.

I mentioned the device because I figured some folks would get a kick out 
of it, not to start a whinge-fest about cloud services.

g.



-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue Jun  5 15:20:00 2012
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 22:20:00 +0200
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>

Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 06/05/2012 11:28 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> > Interesting, but it requires:
> > 
> > a) The purchase of a $50+ piece of hardware
> > 
> > b) That you store all your images on their web site.
> > 
> > DriveWire requires that you build a single cable (peanut expenditure)
> > and let's you store things on your own computer.
> > 
> > Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend towards
> > putting my own data on third-party remote sites.
> 
>   *applause*
> 
>   THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It!
> 
>            -Dave
> 
> -- 
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA

For shure, that's not the only one besides you...

BTW: I'm currently 49 years old, have a little more than "normal" activity
on the net, worked as Unix Sysop for many years...but I still don't know
what for I should need Twitter and Facebook..

Regards,

Holm

PS: We have here in Germany aggressive Advertising from the German Telekom
for their Cloud system.

"Die Telekom Cloud!" ...since they must use english vocables in any sentence
where it is possible to get "a modern image".

For any normal German that sounds like "Die Telekom klaut!" wich means in
German that they are stealing ..

OMG.






-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun  5 15:23:22 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 14:23:22 -0600
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pbt1bssrnPPdmmcxm-menfsHtYyG7Sea6UAUM-MgEimUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKR1yuj_D3Vfjy=bKzqvCFQD-RCy4coUrFE+i8HUFQWofbSOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pa7KKVNWznf+5QKeKWwMLJzxZd6LmYawm8LcbZCi2PPNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1SbvgI-0004z6-SU@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAGN_6pbt1bssrnPPdmmcxm-menfsHtYyG7Sea6UAUM-MgEimUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1Sc0Hi-0004Xr-F3@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CAGN_6pbt1bssrnPPdmmcxm-menfsHtYyG7Sea6UAUM-MgEimUA at mail.gmail.com>,
    David Brownlee <abs at absd.org> writes:

> > It's just another *nix box unless you're running VMS.
> 
> Granted, though I would contest its at least an interesting
> (hardware-wise) *nix box :)

Yes, I don't mean to belittle the accomplishment; VAX is different
enough from x86/ARM/MIPS that having *nix running on it with a modern
software stack is interesting, I was just hoping it was going to be
VMS.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun  5 15:26:08 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 16:26:08 -0400
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051115130.7751@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051115130.7751@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <4FCE6B60.3080501@neurotica.com>

On 06/05/2012 02:18 PM, Gene Buckle wrote:
>>>> Interesting, but it requires:
>>>> b) That you store all your images on their web site.
>>
>>>> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend
>>>> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites.
>>
>>>   *applause*
>>
>>>   THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It!
>>
>> You're not alone, you two...though it sure can feel like it sometimes,
>> I know.
>>
> It's a fun gadget for a 30 year old computer.  Get over yourselves.
> 
> I'll be the first to say that if you don't physically control the
> hardware your data is stored on, you don't control your data.  However,
> whining about storing disk images for your Commodore 64 on a remote site
> is just f*cking stupid.

  Of course.  But some people put their personal finance data "in the
cloud" because they've been told it's a good idea, and they're stupid
enough to believe it.  THAT was his complaint, and it's mine as well.

> I mentioned the device because I figured some folks would get a kick out
> of it, not to start a whinge-fest about cloud services.

  This is classiccmp.  We can turn ANYTHING into a whinge-fest.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Jun  5 15:27:56 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 16:27:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051115130.7751@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051115130.7751@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <201206052027.QAA01411@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>>   THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It!
>> You're not alone, you two...[...]
> It's a fun gadget for a 30 year old computer.

True.  In this particular case, for many people, there's nothing wrong
with it.

But I do think it's important that people contemplating handing their
data to someone else be at least aware enough of the issues to make an
intelligent decision about when it does and doesn't matter, for that
user and that data.

> Get over yourselves.

Yeah, that'll sure help calm the discussion down.

> However, whining about storing disk images for your Commodore 64 on a
> remote site is just f*cking stupid.

...because of course nobody ever uses a C=64 for anything for which
privacy is important.

Right.  Really cogent argument, that.

Phrased so politely, too.

And to get back to the subject, there are reasons beyond privacy for
not pushing data out to third parties.  In particular, it's easy to
lose access to that data, either temporarily or permanently, for
reasons beyond your easy control.  If I were playing with C=64 code, it
would quite annoy me if things suddenly stopped working temporarily
because some provider half a continent away failed...or permanently
because some company failed.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun  5 15:31:34 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 14:31:34 -0600
Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles
In-Reply-To: <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
 <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <E1Sc0Pe-0005Am-Gj@shell.xmission.com>


In article <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net>,
    "Michael Holley" <swtpc6800 at comcast.net> writes:

> [...] He had a different view of the 4052. To improve performance, the
> designers use an AMD bit-slice processor. It had to emulate the 6800 so the
> existing software base could be used. Larry said this product was a
> disaster, it didn't run much faster. Sales were poor so he had to cancel the
> product.

Interesting because all press reports are to the contrary.  I haven't
done any benchmarking between 4051 and 4052, but the 4052 is a
significantly more complex piece of equipment with the bitslice
implementation of the 6800.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun  5 15:32:01 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 16:32:01 -0400
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <E1Sc0Hi-0004Xr-F3@shell.xmission.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKR1yuj_D3Vfjy=bKzqvCFQD-RCy4coUrFE+i8HUFQWofbSOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pa7KKVNWznf+5QKeKWwMLJzxZd6LmYawm8LcbZCi2PPNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1SbvgI-0004z6-SU@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAGN_6pbt1bssrnPPdmmcxm-menfsHtYyG7Sea6UAUM-MgEimUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Sc0Hi-0004Xr-F3@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4FCE6CC1.4050306@neurotica.com>

On 06/05/2012 04:23 PM, Richard wrote:
>>> It's just another *nix box unless you're running VMS.
>>
>> Granted, though I would contest its at least an interesting
>> (hardware-wise) *nix box :)
> 
> Yes, I don't mean to belittle the accomplishment; VAX is different
> enough from x86/ARM/MIPS that having *nix running on it with a modern
> software stack is interesting, I was just hoping it was going to be
> VMS.

  There is nothing at all news about a web server running on VMS, even
on a VAX.  There's off-the-shelf stuff to do that, and there has been
for many years.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From snhirsch at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 15:37:01 2012
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 16:37:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051115130.7751@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051115130.7751@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051635230.15156@duo>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Mouse wrote:
>
>>>> Interesting, but it requires:
>>>> b) That you store all your images on their web site.
>> 
>>>> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend
>>>> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites.
>>
>>>   *applause*
>>
>>>   THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It!
>> 
>> You're not alone, you two...though it sure can feel like it sometimes,
>> I know.
>> 
> It's a fun gadget for a 30 year old computer.  Get over yourselves.
>
> I'll be the first to say that if you don't physically control the hardware 
> your data is stored on, you don't control your data.  However, whining about 
> storing disk images for your Commodore 64 on a remote site is just f*cking 
> stupid.
>
> I mentioned the device because I figured some folks would get a kick out of 
> it, not to start a whinge-fest about cloud services.

Geez, Louise... Lighten up!  This must be crabby day on the cctalk list.

I was simply pointing out a rather major difference and expressed my 
opinion along the way.  Excuse the heck out of me...

Steve


-- 



From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 15:37:18 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 22:37:18 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <4FCE5FF3.1080305@bluewin.ch>
References: <01ff01cd4241$c49ca4c0$4dd5ee40$@camicom.com>
 <m1SbcRb-000J4iC@p850ug1>
 <02a001cd4307$c763f020$562bd060$@gmail.com>
 <4FCE5FF3.1080305@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5SZpKkGs1+agBQSNycFJfayVgy-fYSda2J8s+Lb1L2Tyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 9:37 PM, Jos Dreesen <jdr_use at bluewin.ch> wrote:
> On 06/05/2012 12:41 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
>>>>
>>>> . ? ? ? ?2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859)
>>>> . ? ? ? ?3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859)
>>>
>>> What technology does this CPU use? 2900 bit-slice, ASICs, or what? The
>>> P854 CPU is 3 cards, I think, one of which is the MMU (and one of the
>>> others an IOP?, I would have to check the manuals). The P851 CPU is
>>> a signle board, using Philips bitslice ICs...
>>
>> 2900 bit-slice.
>
>
> Sure of this ?
>
> My P856 ( 12nc 5111 100 05701 ) and P857 ( 12nc 5111 100 05702 ) CPU boards
> definitely have 4 x74181 datapath, and 6 x 82s115 PROM microcode.
>
> That would mean Philips reimplemented the same CPU twice.
> Somehow it does not surprise me...
> My MCU3 boards also have a different 12nc number compared to yours. ( 5111
> 100 05582 )

I found that each board has two numbers: 5111 100 xxxxx which is
etched onto the board, which seems to be the part number for the bare
circuit board. Then a second number on a sticker (which can get lost
of course), 5111 199 xxxx with small numbers 1 - 9 printed  above it
for the last number, which is the revision. This seems to be the part
number for the populated board. I've seen examples where the PCB has
the same 100 number, but where the 199 number differs because not all
components have been fitted.

The MCU3 board number you mention is on my MCU3's as well (although
some are 05583, which appears to be a higher pcb revision).

I have both 856/857 CPU's and 858/859 CPU's. The 856/857 ones are
74181 based, the 859 ones are 2900 based. The service manual describes
the 858/859 CPU as "the refreshed Belier version of the P857M CPU".
The 859 includes some features the 857 doesn't have: MMU and two IOP's
built into the CPU card, and some additional instructions. I have no
clue what "Belier" means

My 856/857 CPU's all use the 5111 100 05702 PCB (same as yours, marked
CPB on the card), but the 199 part numbers are all different: 5111 199
74979 (has a hand-written label that says "P856 CPU"), 5111 199 76227
and 5111 199 63142 (label says CP7B).

Of my 858/859 CPU's, some are CP7R and some are CP7RA. I don't know
what the difference between these two is. The difference between the
858 and the 859 is whether a front panel with lamps and toggle
switches is fitted (858) or a front panel with fluorescent hexadecimal
displays and pushbuttons (859).

> If your documents list a LSM16 board, I'd like to know what it is. That's a
> mystery board I have .
> (12nc 5111 100 06641 )

Haven't come across this, will let you know if I do.

Camiel



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Jun  5 13:59:03 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:59:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <4FCE6B60.3080501@neurotica.com>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051115130.7751@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <4FCE6B60.3080501@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051157010.10595@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 06/05/2012 02:18 PM, Gene Buckle wrote:
>>>>> Interesting, but it requires:
>>>>> b) That you store all your images on their web site.
>>>
>>>>> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend
>>>>> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites.
>>>
>>>>   *applause*
>>>
>>>>   THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It!
>>>
>>> You're not alone, you two...though it sure can feel like it sometimes,
>>> I know.
>>>
>> It's a fun gadget for a 30 year old computer.  Get over yourselves.
>>
>> I'll be the first to say that if you don't physically control the
>> hardware your data is stored on, you don't control your data.  However,
>> whining about storing disk images for your Commodore 64 on a remote site
>> is just f*cking stupid.
>
>  Of course.  But some people put their personal finance data "in the
> cloud" because they've been told it's a good idea, and they're stupid
> enough to believe it.  THAT was his complaint, and it's mine as well.
>
People that stupid deserve what they get, simple as that.  I swear, some 
people are still alive just because their Medulla doesn't know any better.

>> I mentioned the device because I figured some folks would get a kick out
>> of it, not to start a whinge-fest about cloud services.
>
>  This is classiccmp.  We can turn ANYTHING into a whinge-fest.

*facepalm*  Good point.  I keep forgetting that.

DB9 anyone?  *runs*

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun  5 15:37:56 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 14:37:56 -0600
Subject: TinyBASIC in HP2645A (was: Converting terminals into computers (was:
 Re: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles))
In-Reply-To: <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
 <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com>
Message-ID: <E1Sc0Vo-0005fb-BR@shell.xmission.com>


In article <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620 at allegro.com>,
    Stan Sieler <ss at allegro.com> writes:

> (Of course, later TinyBASIC was ported to the HP2645A)

I'd like to hear more about this; is there a link online somewhere?
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun  5 15:40:48 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 14:40:48 -0600
Subject: Converting terminals into computers (was: Re: 1970s
 microprocessor magazine articles)
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKFNxK5fAoo=XudEz1-ump9c4p1TadsOGH+WrgZ9G6E9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
 <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com>
 <CAM2UOwKFNxK5fAoo=XudEz1-ump9c4p1TadsOGH+WrgZ9G6E9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1Sc0Ya-0005tO-JF@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CAM2UOwKFNxK5fAoo=XudEz1-ump9c4p1TadsOGH+WrgZ9G6E9w at mail.gmail.com>,
    Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> writes:

> I have an HP 2647F.  Similar to the other terminals in that series except
> it has two floppy drives. If I remember correctly the FDC board contains a
> Z-80 while the main CPU card uses the standard 8080A for that series.
> Capable of running BASIC.

Interesting; so the floppy drive fits where the tape drives would have
gone?  I didn't think there was quite enough room in the cabinet for
that.  I'd love to see some pictures of it for the terminals wiki.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun  5 14:03:37 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:03:37 +0100 (BST)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCCC7FE.23577.120A956@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 4, 12 02:36:46 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sbz2c-000J4cC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 4 Jun 2012 at 20:51, Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> > I've come across an Epson 5.25" floppy drive with an ST412-like 
> > interface. Apparently it gets about 5MBytes o na disk. I don;t think
> > it was servotracked (the positioner is a nromal stepper motor) and I
> > think the heads are in contact with the media when it's in use. Anyone
> > know anything about it?
> 
> No, I don't think I've seen one.  But the Drivetek 320 drives had two 
> edge connectors--one 34-position, the other 8-position, in an 
> arrangement such that you could make contact with both using a 50 
> position edge connector.

I am pretty sure the Epson drive does have an ST412 interface. The one is 
the siaze of a helaf-height 5.25" floppy and has 34 pi nand 20 pin card 
edges and a normal 4 pin power connector. It's in a case (similar to the 
case of a TF20 -- the floppy drive for the HX20) with a PSU and a 
controller board. This has what looks to be a custom parallel interfce to 
the host, and contains a processor (Z80 IIRC), ROM, RAM, etc, an NEC hard 
disk cotnrolelr IC and what I'd expect foran ST412 interface.

The drive its;ef has a very wel-packed PCB with some custom ICs in PGA 
packages. Due to the amount of custom silicon o nthat board, I can't 
comment on things like whether it uses an embedded servo. If it does, it 
must micro-step the positioned motor.

I think the whole unit is a BN-5, but I might be mis-remembering it.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun  5 14:06:42 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:06:42 +0100 (BST)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206041822030.3813@duo> from "Steven Hirsch" at
 Jun 4, 12 06:23:38 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sbz5b-000J4dC@p850ug1>

> Actually, it does use the bit-banger serial port and it does communicate 
> at 115.2kps quite reliably.  The author of the drivewire server tells me 

That's impressive. PResumably the protocol is designed so that hte CoCO 
knows when characters will be sent to it (for example it requests a 
packet from the host, and cna then wait for a knwon number of charcters). 

Even so, it must tie up the CPU when receivign data from the host. That's 
going to be rather unpleasant on a multiuser machine.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun  5 14:39:26 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:39:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Philips P800 family minis
In-Reply-To: <02a701cd4317$c66ffff0$534fffd0$@gmail.com> from "Camiel
 Vanderhoeven" at Jun 5, 12 02:36:04 pm
Message-ID: <m1SbzbI-000J4iC@p850ug1>

> 
> I took one of the P859 boxes to check out. Power supplies turned out to be
> good, so I put in one of the P859 CPU cards (CP7RA). The fluorescent display
> briefly displayed "8.", followed by "000000". The expected output, according
> to the manual, is "ooFFFC", after the CPU has run a first self-test. I
> swapped out the CPU with one of the other ones, and this one does give me
> "ooFFFC". Hit the "0" button simultaneously with the "TEST" button to run
> the microdiagnostics, and got an indication that it failed on accessing
> memory. I plugged in a memory board, and now it passes all self-tests
> successfully (display "ooFF04"). So, at least this cpu and this memory board
> appear to be OK so far. I can push the "IPL" button, and using "INST" I can
> step through the IPL code (the listing is provided in the manual, so you
> have a good idea of what's going on).

Nest job is to fix that defective CPU. I wonder if it's doing anything at 
all. You might find it's an easy fix in the clock generator or something.

> 
> Off course, I'd like to get it to boot something, and the only media I have
> are the fixed platters in the three X1215's, and the 10 X1215 cartridges.

If these drives are like other fixed/removable drives I've soprked on, 
you can't use the fixed platter unless there's a removable pack in the 
drive too.

> test the drives with an the unlabeled Philips cartridge first. I'm wondering
> of the "TP00 Test Pack" is the "Servicing disk-pack" mentioned in the
> service manual.

It might well be. I assume this is the head alignemt 'CE' pack. If so, DO 
NOT WRITE TO IT!

> 
> So, I'd really like to get at least one cartridge drive running, so I opened
> one up. There was a bit of dust inside, but not too much, and the disk
> compartment seems clean. However, I discovered a problem on the undersize of
> the drive.
> The drive belt is made out of cloth or nylon, covered in an orange substance
> (probably rubber).  The rubber comes off in flakes, and a lot of the gooey
> stuff is stuck on the pulleys. All three drives suffer from this condition.
> I need to find a replacement for these. The belts are a little over 1/2 inch
> wide, and the length of the cloth as measured is 35-1/8 inches. I'm figuring
> I need a belt with a 35 inch inside circumference. The service manual only
> lists a Philips part number, no dimensions for the belt.
> 
> Any idea where to get replacement belts?

I assume this is a flat belt, like a tape, not a V-belt. 

Belts shoudl eb easy to get, but msot of the time they are not!. I don't 
know of a supplier, but I wonded if a google search would help 

One thing.. Philips parts are very unlikely to be a sensible number of 
inches. They would use metric measurements almost exclusively (to the 
extent that their '19"' panels are not qwuite the same as, say, DEC ones. 
35.125 inches is 892.175mm I wonder if it actually should be 890mm or 
something like that. Or perhaps 280mm (or 284mm) diameter.

-tony



> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Camiel
> 
> 



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun  5 14:16:14 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:16:14 +0100 (BST)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <4FCD8E21.40608@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Jun 5,
 12 06:42:09 am
Message-ID: <m1SbzEp-000J4eC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 06/04/2012 08:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
> >> .        2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859)
> >>
> >>
> >> .        3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859)
> > What technology does this CPU use? 2900 bit-slice, ASICs, or what? The
> > P854 CPU is 3 cards, I think, one of which is the MMU (and one of the
> > others an IOP?, I would have to check the manuals). The P851 CPU is a
> > signle board, using Philips bitslice ICs...
> >
> 
> The P856/P857CPU  uses a  single PCB with a 74181 ALU and microcode in proms.

I was asking about the P859. If it is a 'P854 on P856 type boards' then 
it should use 2900 series ICs.

FWIW, the P850 uses a pair of 74181s (8 bit ALU path), it does 2 ALU 
cycles for each operation. Actually, I thin kthe core memory path is 8 
bits wide too. The control logic is hardwired, there are no microcode 
PROMs in that machine.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun  5 14:43:05 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:43:05 +0100 (BST)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5RE3zd2JQ=OYUWUTOO-6ng=HRvbL5qRZDrj41XoEA2DQg@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jun 5, 12 03:32:07 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sbzep-000J4jC@p850ug1>

> Tony, are you sure that the controller you thought was for X1215
> cartridge disc drives wasn't instead an F1MB 8" floppy controller?

It's possible I guess. but...
This board was in my P854 when I got the machine. There was also the 
nromal 2-board stack (each a dulbe eurocard) that was connected ot a pair 
of CDC floppy drives. The board I think was an X1215 controller had a 
cabel plguged into it ending in the right conenctor fo such a drive, and 
the guy who gave me the machine said it had be used with an X1215. 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun  5 14:22:47 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:22:47 +0100 (BST)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206051104480.19228@linuxserv.home> from
 "Christian Corti" at Jun 5, 12 11:07:31 am
Message-ID: <m1SbzLB-000J4fC@p850ug1>

> Still looking for a floppy based OS.

What, for the P800s? 

THey'll take some finding, but I should have the OS for my P851 (this has 
32K words of MOS memory, a termianl interface and an FDC). I will see 
what I can dig out.

Incidentally the manaul for my FDC board came with the CDC drive serivce 
manual spileld inside :-) I ahve 2 of the Philips floppy disk unts, each 
with 2 drives installed.

-tony

 



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun  5 14:27:16 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:27:16 +0100 (BST)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <02a001cd4307$c763f020$562bd060$@gmail.com> from "Camiel
 Vanderhoeven" at Jun 5, 12 12:41:33 pm
Message-ID: <m1SbzPV-000J4gC@p850ug1>

> 
> > > .        2 x CP7R : 5111 199 67589 (P857R CPU for P858,P859)
> > > .        3 x CP7RA : 5111 199 62019 (P857R/A CPU for P858,P859)
> > 
> > What technology does this CPU use? 2900 bit-slice, ASICs, or what? The
> > P854 CPU is 3 cards, I think, one of which is the MMU (and one of the 
> > others an IOP?, I would have to check the manuals). The P851 CPU is 
> > a signle board, using Philips bitslice ICs...
> 
> 2900 bit-slice.

It might well be whtyou think, then, namely a P854 CPU on P856-type cards.

> 
> > P854. From what I rememebr it's got an 8X305 chip on it, which should 
> > be easy to spot.
> 
> The card I suspect is the controller is labeled "5111 199 7817 CDD". The
> cable that connects to the X1215 is labeled "X1215 CDD UP" on the top side.
> The wires match up with the used contact fingers on the CDD board.

I asusme this is a P856-type of I/O card. The board I know to be an X1215 
controlled that I have is a double Eurocard for the P854 (and P851, etc). 
That could be very differnet in design.

Unfortuantely I have no docuemtnatio nt all on this controller or any 
part dfo the X1215 set-up. 

-tony


From pontus at update.uu.se  Tue Jun  5 16:08:59 2012
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 23:08:59 +0200
Subject: Mystery Panel
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SEbbu+Ku+WROeLw1fhUCjmiADBt-FAmiM2mYdGJwMZLEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SEbbu+Ku+WROeLw1fhUCjmiADBt-FAmiM2mYdGJwMZLEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCE756B.4000107@update.uu.se>

It looks vaguely IBM-ish. Like a status header for a tape drive?

http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Panels/

/P

On 06/05/2012 07:56 PM, Jason T wrote:
> I received this 23" panel strip recently along with a large lot of
> unrelated (DEC) items.  I've tried some creative googling but have
> been unable to ID it.  I'm hoping somewhere here may have encountered
> it in their past travels.  Here is a gallery of pics:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/MysteryTelcoPanel
>
> Whatever it came from, it appears to be hand-wired with great care,
> perhaps even a one-off for its particular application.  I thought at
> first it was telco-related, rather than computing, being a 23" rather
> than 19" mount. That may still be the case.  Or, it could be both,
> given the intersection of the two industries.
>
> So, do those panel codes stir up any memories here?
>



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Jun  5 16:34:22 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 14:34:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20120605142011.B33659@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> "Die Telekom Cloud!" ...since they must use english vocables in any sentence
> where it is possible to get "a modern image".
> For any normal German that sounds like "Die Telekom klaut!" wich means in
> German that they are stealing ..

GREAT!

So, depending on whether you are English speaking or German speaking, it
is either saying that the cloud should be put to death, or that they are
stealing.   What's to argue?




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Jun  5 16:36:59 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 14:36:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051157010.10595@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051115130.7751@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <4FCE6B60.3080501@neurotica.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051157010.10595@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <20120605142422.C44254@shell.lmi.net>

> >> of it, not to start a whinge-fest about cloud services.
On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
> >  This is classiccmp.  We can turn ANYTHING into a whinge-fest.
On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote:
> *facepalm*  Good point.  I keep forgetting that.
> DB9 anyone?  *runs*

Good point.

We ALL have things which INFURIATE us, despite being in common usage.
And we can't resist reacting.

For some it's "DB9".

Recently I discovered how offensive using "DD" as a drive type can be.


For myself, I HATE "1.44M" when referring to a drive with 1,474,560 bytes.
(1.40625 Mebibytes)   rounded, that is "1.4M"
To me, that is WORSE THAN to referring to 65,536 bytes as 65.5K
1,024,000 bytes per "Megabyte"??!?


"Die Telekom Cloud!"   Die, NOW.






From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 16:37:33 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 14:37:33 -0700
Subject: Converting terminals into computers (was: Re: 1970s
 microprocessor magazine articles)
In-Reply-To: <E1Sc0Ya-0005tO-JF@shell.xmission.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com>
 <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com>
 <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
 <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com>
 <CAM2UOwKFNxK5fAoo=XudEz1-ump9c4p1TadsOGH+WrgZ9G6E9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Sc0Ya-0005tO-JF@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+vzA+Cg9JxcmbxsTnBCTbG2o-D3qKsRC6b2ohjFxvbmw@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 5, 2012 2:25 PM, "Richard" <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>
> Interesting; so the floppy drive fits where the tape drives would have
> gone?  I didn't think there was quite enough room in the cabinet for
> that.  I'd love to see some pictures of it for the terminals wiki.
> --

No, there isn't room internally. The tape slots are blanked off. The drives
are single unit boxes chained together.

The drives look like the similar 9130A pictured at hpmuseum.net  The page
there references the different drive that is used with the terminals.

I'll have to dig mine out and set it up. I think the screen was clear when
I first got it and has unfortunately developed screen rot since then.

Also, might be an 8085 main CPU instead of an 8080 as I first mentioned.

-Glen


From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Tue Jun  5 16:50:06 2012
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 17:50:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Converting terminals into computers (was: Re: 1970s microprocessor
 magazine articles)
In-Reply-To: <E1Sc0Ya-0005tO-JF@shell.xmission.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
 <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com>
 <CAM2UOwKFNxK5fAoo=XudEz1-ump9c4p1TadsOGH+WrgZ9G6E9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Sc0Ya-0005tO-JF@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206051746540.27771@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Richard wrote:

>
> In article <CAM2UOwKFNxK5fAoo=XudEz1-ump9c4p1TadsOGH+WrgZ9G6E9w at mail.gmail.com>,
>    Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I have an HP 2647F.  Similar to the other terminals in that series except
>> it has two floppy drives. If I remember correctly the FDC board contains a
>> Z-80 while the main CPU card uses the standard 8080A for that series.
>> Capable of running BASIC.
>
> Interesting; so the floppy drive fits where the tape drives would have
> gone?  I didn't think there was quite enough room in the cabinet for
> that.  I'd love to see some pictures of it for the terminals wiki.

    The 2647F had a floppy controller card, and one or two external drives.


http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=3884
http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=3844

Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology	      http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/


From als at thangorodrim.de  Tue Jun  5 16:57:19 2012
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 23:57:19 +0200
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo>
 <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20120605215719.GB5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 03:26:52PM -0400, Mouse wrote:
> >> Interesting, but it requires:
> >> b) That you store all your images on their web site.
> 
> >> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend
> >> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites.
> 
> >   *applause*
> 
> >   THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It!
> 
> You're not alone, you two...though it sure can feel like it sometimes,
> I know.
> 
> Especially when the third-party remote site is in a place with
> substantially weaker privacy protection than is provided locally, which
> is often the case since many - most? - of the third-party sites in
> question are in the USA, with all the depressing implications that has
> for privacy.  (Of course, for people already in the USA, this may not
> be as big a deal.)
> 
> There are reasons I, for example, run my own mailserver, and this is
> one of them.  I don't trust anyone else with my mail, especially not
> someone off in another country.

Well, of course. I run my own infrastructure as far as possible and that
includes mailserver, webserver, newsserver, VPN, ... and that stuff
isn't hard.

> My offsite backups take the form of
> two disks which I swap weekly, keeping the non-live one a few miles
> from my place.  That sort of thing.

Here it is a stack of tapes, with one (encrypted, obviously) copy sitting
in the vault of a local bank.

Kind regards,
            Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Tue Jun  5 16:54:21 2012
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 23:54:21 +0200
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo>
Message-ID: <20120605215421.GA5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 11:28:26AM -0400, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote:
> 
> >On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> >
> >>On Mon, 4 Jun 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
> >>
> >>>>>Is this SLIP or PPP?
> >>>>
> >>>>Neither.  It's a well thought-out (and documented!) protocol
> >>>>for interface
> >>>>between small 8-bit machines and modern hardware.  There's nothing
> >>>>specific to the CoCo - that just happens to be the first implementation.
> >>>
> >>>I just looked at it on sourceforge. It seems like the same setup of a
> >>>Lantronix UDS or Wiznet-type device. Those are a little more portable.
> >>
> >>In some respects. But those don't give you the virtual disk
> >>drive services that drivewire offers.
> >
> >For the Commodore users out there, you might want to look at the
> >Comet from http://www.commodoreserver.com.  They've got a new
> >driver out that allows for a 38.4k transfer rate on the USER port,
> >which is a pretty big deal on a Commodore 64.  I've got a Comet
> >and it works VERY well.
> 
> Interesting, but it requires:
> 
> a) The purchase of a $50+ piece of hardware

Hmm.

> b) That you store all your images on their web site.

WTF? Why should someone store their (presumably private) data on their
servers instead of storing it on one of his own machines right next
to it? Privacy, confidentiality, accessability all go pretty much down
the drain with that "clouded"[0] approach.

> DriveWire requires that you build a single cable (peanut
> expenditure) and let's you store things on your own computer.

Sounds much more reasonable.
 
> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend
> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites.

No, you are not. In fact, I believe this to be a perfectly reasonable
opinion. Why should I store my private data on machines outside my control?
Yes, some of my data (a carefully selected subset) is stored also on the
"cloud" of a company (which I have reasons to trust sufficiently).

Heck, even my backup tapes in the bank vault are encrypted.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
[0] As in "clouded thinking".
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From md.benson at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 17:13:27 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 23:13:27 +0100
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <4FCE6CC1.4050306@neurotica.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+08Y8U-4Zbs4+c7OEk4x0MNzcJq8iTdsVmM4h2H4Aae6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMKR1yuj_D3Vfjy=bKzqvCFQD-RCy4coUrFE+i8HUFQWofbSOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pa7KKVNWznf+5QKeKWwMLJzxZd6LmYawm8LcbZCi2PPNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1SbvgI-0004z6-SU@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAGN_6pbt1bssrnPPdmmcxm-menfsHtYyG7Sea6UAUM-MgEimUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Sc0Hi-0004Xr-F3@shell.xmission.com> <4FCE6CC1.4050306@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <337CF44D-8783-4E60-BED1-259DBEA3D53C@gmail.com>


On 5 Jun 2012, at 21:32, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 06/05/2012 04:23 PM, Richard wrote:
>>>> It's just another *nix box unless you're running VMS.
>>> 
>>> Granted, though I would contest its at least an interesting
>>> (hardware-wise) *nix box :)

As Phil Schiller would have it (well known for delivering the MOST boring Apple keynote segments ever) "It's all about the Hardware AND the Software". ;)

>> Yes, I don't mean to belittle the accomplishment; VAX is different
>> enough from x86/ARM/MIPS that having *nix running on it with a modern
>> software stack is interesting, I was just hoping it was going to be
>> VMS.
> 
>  There is nothing at all news about a web server running on VMS, even
> on a VAX.  There's off-the-shelf stuff to do that, and there has been
> for many years.

An up-to-date AMP stack is not 'just a webserver' though, it includes modern versions of widespread languages like PHP 5.x and MySQL 5.0 or 5.5. Other scripting languages and databases are available (and I encourage people to look at them at least in passing).

I appreciate web servers on VAX are not new, hell a lot of the Internet's popular early academic and institutional web content was served out off VAXen (probably running UNIX or VMS) back in the late 80s/early 90s. 

-- 

Mark Benson

http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK

Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.




From als at thangorodrim.de  Tue Jun  5 17:04:25 2012
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 00:04:25 +0200
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo>
 <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 10:20:00PM +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Dave McGuire wrote:
> 
> > On 06/05/2012 11:28 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> > > Interesting, but it requires:
> > > 
> > > a) The purchase of a $50+ piece of hardware
> > > 
> > > b) That you store all your images on their web site.
> > > 
> > > DriveWire requires that you build a single cable (peanut expenditure)
> > > and let's you store things on your own computer.
> > > 
> > > Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend towards
> > > putting my own data on third-party remote sites.
> > 
> >   *applause*
> > 
> >   THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It!
> > 
> >            -Dave
> > 
> > -- 
> > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> > New Kensington, PA
> 
> For shure, that's not the only one besides you...
> 
> BTW: I'm currently 49 years old, have a little more than "normal" activity
> on the net, worked as Unix Sysop for many years...but I still don't know
> what for I should need Twitter and Facebook..

I've been told they are _great_ for getting rid of excess spare time.

Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juQcZO_WnsI
(Onion News Network about Facebook *g*)

> PS: We have here in Germany aggressive Advertising from the German Telekom
> for their Cloud system.
> 
> "Die Telekom Cloud!" ...since they must use english vocables in any sentence
> where it is possible to get "a modern image".

Yeah, if they were at least consistent, but this "stylish" mixing of german
and english words tends to produce some seriously cringeworthy things.

> For any normal German that sounds like "Die Telekom klaut!" wich means in
> German that they are stealing ..

Nothing wrong with that perception ... 

Hey, they are a telco. By definition, that means they are evil and should
not be trusted. ;-)
 
Kind regards,
            Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From d235j.1 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 17:17:11 2012
From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 18:17:11 -0400
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCE0167.10016.F03F6B@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com>
 <4FCCC7FE.23577.120A956@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAB3bDi55cxDXMTMSm+wxtf3yMq3NK52yjwbre2b8wTyCOhtyCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCE0167.10016.F03F6B@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3bDi68MarYnk-DzHZfQTJEV6cw1ZOEaTpUOxYtyeNbtO9xvA@mail.gmail.com>

> I've got a Drivetek OEM manual for the 320, but it's not nearly as
> detailed as other OEM manuals. ?It discusses the basic philosophy of
> the positioner, embedded servo, 600 RPM, etc., but no schematics or
> anything other than the pinout for the 34-position connector. ?At
> least that's what I remember without actually going digging for it.

I managed to find quite a bit of info about this stuff in the patent
for the design, US Patent 4630145.

> The service literature for the Kaypro Robie may offer some additional
> clues, but I suspect that there's not much, if anything, there
> either.

I checked, and nothing. I did find the pinout in the manual for the
Data Technology DTC-500B controller card though.
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dtc/DTC-500B_Series_User_Manual.pdf

> I've worked on hard drives with embedded servo, the first being the
> never-relased Ontrack 5.25" drive. ?There, the mechanism was a rather
> complicated mechanical affair that used a system of sleeves and
> solenoids to create a binary-encoded positioner. ?There's certainly a
> patent circa early 1980s somewhere on that thing, even if it never
> saw the light of day.

Interesting!

If you get a chance and dig out your drive and read out the
microcontroller (or just attempt), that would be awesome. It's
believed that the later code fixes some bugs in the older versions
that cause disk damage, but comparing the older version would be
worthwhile. Also I'm quite certain the 6.6mb drive does at least some
things differently. Photos or scans of the board are useful too.

I'm looking for other unusual floppy drives, but even these Kodaks are
hard enough to find.

--Dave



From rickb at bensene.com  Tue Jun  5 17:42:10 2012
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:42:10 -0700
Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles
In-Reply-To: <E1Sc0Pe-0005Am-Gj@shell.xmission.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
 <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sc0Pe-0005Am-Gj@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D4303@mail.bensene.com>



> 
> > [...] He had a different view of the 4052. To improve performance,
the
> > designers use an AMD bit-slice processor. It had to emulate the 6800
> > so the existing software base could be used. Larry said this product
> > was a disaster, it didn't run much faster. Sales were poor so he had
> > to cancel the product.
> 
> Interesting because all press reports are to the contrary.  I haven't
done any
> benchmarking between 4051 and 4052, but the 4052 is a significantly
more
> complex piece of equipment with the bitslice implementation of the
6800.

The 4052 was in fact significantly faster than the 4051. I have both a
4051 and a 4052, and the 4052 is much  faster than the 4051 in more ways
than just raw CPU power.

 I argue what Mayhew stated as to his reasons for cancelling the series
of machines.  Perhaps he was speaking from a sales revenue "performance"
perspective (typical of many upper-management types).    Revenues for
the 4051 and the later 4052/4054 fell consistently after the 4052/4054
were introduced more because of the outdated display technology used.

The death of the 405x series came from its use of DVST (Direct View
Storage Tube) display technology rather than performance.  Raster
graphics systems were gaining ground very quickly in the latter part of
the 1970's, rendering DVST rather pointless in all but some very fringe
environments where very high resolution was required.  Even stodgy
Tektronix realized this, and began designing a series of raster graphics
terminals to replace its DVST terminals.  Unfortunately, no such effort
was made to take the 4051/4052/4054 concept and implement it using a
nice raster display subsystem.  Such a product could have been a major
hit.

The 4052/4054 used a bit-slice (AMD 2901) 16-bit implementation of the
Motorola 6800 instruction set, and added microcoded floating point math
instructions (utilizing unimplemented opcodes in the 6800 instruction
set), along with major improvements in the code that implemented the
BASIC programming environment on the machine to improve performance with
math, graphics, and I/O.    The 4054 added another graphics processor
and a 19" DVST tube to allow even faster graphics, as well as some
limited refreshed vector graphic capability (though the refreshed
vectors were rather dim to prevent the storage tube from storing the
image).

Tek made quite a number of blunders in numerous attempts to  get into
the computer marketplace, all mostly a result of rather clueless
management that didn't know how to market anything by Test & Measurement
equipment...and when they did have good computer products, they tried to
shoehorn them into the T&M business by turning them into instrumentation
controllers, eliminating any chance of them succeeding in the computer
marketplace.

No bitterness here...all companies make mistakes. Working for Tek was
one of the best employment experiences of my lifetime.  I worked for Tek
between 1977 and 1990, and saw many really great computer products come
and go, ranging from the amazing Magnolia Smalltalk Workstation from
1976-ish, to the 405x "personal computers", to some pretty powerful
desktop Unix graphic workstations in the mid-to-late 1980's.  

Rick Bensene











From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun  5 18:42:07 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 17:42:07 -0600
Subject: Converting terminals into computers (was: Re: 1970s
 microprocessor magazine articles)
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+vzA+Cg9JxcmbxsTnBCTbG2o-D3qKsRC6b2ohjFxvbmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
 <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com>
 <CAM2UOwKFNxK5fAoo=XudEz1-ump9c4p1TadsOGH+WrgZ9G6E9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Sc0Ya-0005tO-JF@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAM2UOw+vzA+Cg9JxcmbxsTnBCTbG2o-D3qKsRC6b2ohjFxvbmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1Sc3O3-0003no-OT@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CAM2UOw+vzA+Cg9JxcmbxsTnBCTbG2o-D3qKsRC6b2ohjFxvbmw at mail.gmail.com>,
    Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> writes:

> On Jun 5, 2012 2:25 PM, "Richard" <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting; so the floppy drive fits where the tape drives would have
> > gone?  I didn't think there was quite enough room in the cabinet for
> > that.  I'd love to see some pictures of it for the terminals wiki.
> > --
> 
> No, there isn't room internally. The tape slots are blanked off. The drives
> are single unit boxes chained together.

Ah, that makes sense.  Even for the other models of 264x, you could
get the external floppy drive as an option.

> Also, might be an 8085 main CPU instead of an 8080 as I first mentioned.

Very possible; I have seen docs for 8008, 8080 and 8085A CPU modules.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Jun  5 18:49:02 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:49:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <20120605142422.C44254@shell.lmi.net>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051115130.7751@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <4FCE6B60.3080501@neurotica.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051157010.10595@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <20120605142422.C44254@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <201206052349.TAA03453@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> We ALL have things which INFURIATE us, despite being in common usage.
> And we can't resist reacting.

Though some of us sometimes can (mostly) keep the reactions off the
list. :/

> For myself, I HATE "1.44M" when referring to a drive with 1,474,560
> bytes.  (1.40625 Mebibytes)

The whole kibblebytes/maybebytes/gibberbytes stupidity is one of my pet
peeves.  I refuse to let disk manufacturers redefine storage amounts
out from under me, no matter who buys into their fiction.

> 1,024,000 bytes per "Megabyte"??!?

Agreed, "1.44M" floppies are a particularly schizoid measurement.  Not
that it bothers me the way [KMGT]iB do...as you said, different folks,
different hot buttons. :)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From dm561 at torfree.net  Tue Jun  5 18:53:04 2012
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:53:04 -0400
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
References: <mailman.577.1338927811.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <5181C117B32841E5B3DF186FC79662C7@vl420mt>

Original Message:
> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 11:18:59 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com>

> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Mouse wrote:
>
>>>> Interesting, but it requires:
>>>> b) That you store all your images on their web site.
>>
>>>> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend
>>>> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites.
>>
>>>   *applause*
>>
>>>   THANK GOD...someone else who Gets It!
>>
>> You're not alone, you two...though it sure can feel like it sometimes,
>> I know.
>>
> It's a fun gadget for a 30 year old computer.  Get over yourselves.
>
> I'll be the first to say that if you don't physically control the hardware
> your data is stored on, you don't control your data.  However, whining
> about storing disk images for your Commodore 64 on a remote site is just
> f*cking stupid.
>
> I mentioned the device because I figured some folks would get a kick out
> of it, not to start a whinge-fest about cloud services.
>
> g.

-----------Reply:

You could always get a Flyer:
http://www.retroswitch.com/products/flyer/

An Internet modem *and* 3.5MB disk emulator for 8-bit Commodores with either
IEC or IEEE488 interface that lets you use the cloud or set up your own
local server.




From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Tue Jun  5 19:13:02 2012
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 17:13:02 -0700
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <D5E65916-96A5-49D6-BCA5-1745AD60AAA9@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2012 Jun 5, at 3:04 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:

> Hey, they are a telco. By definition, that means they are evil and  
> should
> not be trusted. ;-)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEMSFx8pls

Start at 1:29:00.

Cheesy 60's movie with James Coburn. Lots of blinkenlights.



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun  5 20:01:58 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 18:01:58 -0700
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <201206052349.TAA03453@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>,
 <20120605142422.C44254@shell.lmi.net>,
 <201206052349.TAA03453@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4FCE4996.10043.7724F@cclist.sydex.com>

On 5 Jun 2012 at 19:49, Mouse wrote:

> Agreed, "1.44M" floppies are a particularly schizoid measurement.  Not
> that it bothers me the way [KMGT]iB do...as you said, different folks,
> different hot buttons. :)

You say what you have to say in order to be understood.  I refer to 
the format/medium as "1.44M", not 1.44MB.   Pick your own unit to 
make it come out right..  The fresh confusion over what "HD" means 
illustrates the problem.  Perhaps something like 
3.5/300/80/2/18/512MFM might be a better way, but it's not likely to 
be understood by many.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun  5 20:03:23 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 18:03:23 -0700
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <CAB3bDi68MarYnk-DzHZfQTJEV6cw1ZOEaTpUOxYtyeNbtO9xvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FCE0167.10016.F03F6B@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <CAB3bDi68MarYnk-DzHZfQTJEV6cw1ZOEaTpUOxYtyeNbtO9xvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCE49EB.31927.8BFCE@cclist.sydex.com>

On 5 Jun 2012 at 18:17, David Ryskalczyk wrote:

> I'm looking for other unusual floppy drives, but even these Kodaks are
> hard enough to find.

I do have a 6.6MB Kodak drive (and media).  It looks a lot like the 
3.3.  

--Chuck



From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun  5 20:13:15 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 19:13:15 -0600
Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles
In-Reply-To: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D4303@mail.bensene.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
 <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sc0Pe-0005Am-Gj@shell.xmission.com>
 <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D4303@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <E1Sc4oF-0002Ol-2G@shell.xmission.com>


In article <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D4303 at mail.bensene.com>,
    "Rick Bensene" <rickb at bensene.com> writes:

> [...]  Unfortunately, no such effort
> was made to take the 4051/4052/4054 concept and implement it using a
> nice raster display subsystem.  Such a product could have been a major
> hit.

Judging from the evolution of the product line, it seems that they
decided to pursue workstation type products instead of personal
computer type products.  When they made the shift to raster systems,
they switched to CP/M-86 and unix as the operating environment to
provide local graphics processing.

> Tek made quite a number of blunders in numerous attempts to  get into
> the computer marketplace, all mostly a result of rather clueless
> management that didn't know how to market anything by Test & Measurement
> equipment...and when they did have good computer products, they tried to
> shoehorn them into the T&M business by turning them into instrumentation
> controllers, eliminating any chance of them succeeding in the computer
> marketplace.

Shades of Xerox PARC?
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun  5 20:21:31 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:21:31 -0400
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <201206052349.TAA03453@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <201206051926.PAA00822@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051115130.7751@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <4FCE6B60.3080501@neurotica.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206051157010.10595@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <20120605142422.C44254@shell.lmi.net>
 <201206052349.TAA03453@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4FCEB09B.5000904@neurotica.com>

On 06/05/2012 07:49 PM, Mouse wrote:
>> We ALL have things which INFURIATE us, despite being in common usage.
>> And we can't resist reacting.
> 
> Though some of us sometimes can (mostly) keep the reactions off the
> list. :/
> 
>> For myself, I HATE "1.44M" when referring to a drive with 1,474,560
>> bytes.  (1.40625 Mebibytes)
> 
> The whole kibblebytes/maybebytes/gibberbytes stupidity is one of my pet
> peeves.  I refuse to let disk manufacturers redefine storage amounts
> out from under me, no matter who buys into their fiction.

  Yes.  It's even more stupid than the whole "master and SUBORDINATE"
(as opposed to the proper term "slave"), in the context of ATA-interface
drives, that a certain group of professionally-offended people tried to
promote.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun  5 20:23:45 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:23:45 -0400
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <5181C117B32841E5B3DF186FC79662C7@vl420mt>
References: <mailman.577.1338927811.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <5181C117B32841E5B3DF186FC79662C7@vl420mt>
Message-ID: <4FCEB121.6040007@neurotica.com>

On 06/05/2012 07:53 PM, MikeS wrote:
> You could always get a Flyer:
> http://www.retroswitch.com/products/flyer/
> 
> An Internet modem *and* 3.5MB disk emulator for 8-bit Commodores with
> either
> IEC or IEEE488 interface that lets you use the cloud or set up your own
> local server.

  An "Internet modem"?

         -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Jun  5 21:00:09 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 19:00:09 -0700
Subject: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles
In-Reply-To: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D4303@mail.bensene.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
 <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sc0Pe-0005Am-Gj@shell.xmission.com>
 <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D4303@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <4FCEB9A9.3040908@brouhaha.com>

Rick Bensene wrote about Tektronix stuff:
> ranging from the amazing Magnolia Smalltalk Workstation from
> 1976-ish,

Really? That date is extremely hard to believe.

Adele Goldberg wrote in "The Smalltalk-80 System Release Process" (in 
_Smalltalk-80: Bits of History, Words of Advice_, June 1983) that the 
first release of Smalltalk to licensees (Apple, DEC, HP, and Tektronix) 
did not occur until February 17, 1981, with updated releases on July 24, 
1981 and November 18, 1981.  "Implementing the Smalltalk-80 System: The 
Tektronix Experience" by Paul L. McCullough, copyright 1982 and printed 
in the same book, describes the initial bringup at Tektronix.  It 
doesn't give a date for the start of the effort, but after describing 
the initial bringup, states "About this time, we received the second 
virtual image from Xerox Palo Alto Research Center (PARC)."  This 
suggests that they received the first and second images at times 
consistent with the release dates in the Goldberg paper.

Didn't Magnolia use the Motorola MC68000 microprocessor?  Motorola 
didn't announce that until September 1979, and while it's certainly 
possible that Motorola provided Tektronix with preliminary data on it 
prior to that, Motorola didn't have working silicon until late 1979.

Allen Wirfs-Brock's resume describes how he was involved in the 
Tektronix review of the draft Smalltalk-80 books in 1980-1981, and that 
review occurred before Xerox released the image.



From snhirsch at gmail.com  Tue Jun  5 21:00:20 2012
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 22:00:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...)
In-Reply-To: <m1Sbz5b-000J4dC@p850ug1>
References: <m1Sbz5b-000J4dC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206052155480.15156@duo>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:

>> Actually, it does use the bit-banger serial port and it does communicate
>> at 115.2kps quite reliably.  The author of the drivewire server tells me
>
> That's impressive. PResumably the protocol is designed so that hte CoCO
> knows when characters will be sent to it (for example it requests a
> packet from the host, and cna then wait for a knwon number of charcters).
>
> Even so, it must tie up the CPU when receivign data from the host. That's
> going to be rather unpleasant on a multiuser machine.

It's surprisingly unobtrusive.  You can even telnet into the CoCo by 
accessing the server.

Check it out at:

https://sites.google.com/site/drivewire4/

For even more fun, you can use DriveWire from an FPGA CoCo.  This runs a 
synthesized, 25Mhz. 6809 on an Altera DE1 board.  It will cheerfully 
communicate at 430Kbps with a DW server.

Steve


-- 



From spectre at floodgap.com  Tue Jun  5 21:07:12 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:07:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <4FCEB121.6040007@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jun 5,
 12 09:23:45 pm"
Message-ID: <201206060207.q5627CDu14876826@floodgap.com>

> > You could always get a Flyer:
> > http://www.retroswitch.com/products/flyer/
> > 
> > An Internet modem *and* 3.5MB disk emulator for 8-bit Commodores with
> > either
> > IEC or IEEE488 interface that lets you use the cloud or set up your own
> > local server.
> 
>   An "Internet modem"?

Presumably referring to the modified Hayes command set ("dial" an IP address
and port instead of a telephone number).

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- If I wanted your opinion, I'd have beaten it out of you. -------------------


From brain at jbrain.com  Tue Jun  5 21:31:39 2012
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:31:39 -0500
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <201206060207.q5627CDu14876826@floodgap.com>
References: <201206060207.q5627CDu14876826@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4FCEC10B.4030103@jbrain.com>

On 6/5/2012 9:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>>> You could always get a Flyer:
>>> http://www.retroswitch.com/products/flyer/
>>>
>>> An Internet modem *and* 3.5MB disk emulator for 8-bit Commodores with
>>> either
>>> IEC or IEEE488 interface that lets you use the cloud or set up your own
>>> local server.
>>    An "Internet modem"?
> Presumably referring to the modified Hayes command set ("dial" an IP address
> and port instead of a telephone number).
>
Hehe, yep, which is what we call this type of SW.  'tcpser' is an 
internet (tcp/ip) "modem emulator" utility.

-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun  5 21:49:43 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 22:49:43 -0400
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <201206060207.q5627CDu14876826@floodgap.com>
References: <201206060207.q5627CDu14876826@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4FCEC547.6040407@neurotica.com>

On 06/05/2012 10:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>>> You could always get a Flyer:
>>> http://www.retroswitch.com/products/flyer/
>>>
>>> An Internet modem *and* 3.5MB disk emulator for 8-bit Commodores with
>>> either
>>> IEC or IEEE488 interface that lets you use the cloud or set up your own
>>> local server.
>>
>>   An "Internet modem"?
> 
> Presumably referring to the modified Hayes command set ("dial" an IP address
> and port instead of a telephone number).

  Oh, those.  I work with that mess on a daily basis.  The AT command
reference guide is 559 pages long...no typo!

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Jun  5 21:59:16 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:59:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <D5E65916-96A5-49D6-BCA5-1745AD60AAA9@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <D5E65916-96A5-49D6-BCA5-1745AD60AAA9@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEMSFx8pls
> Start at 1:29:00.
> Cheesy 60's movie with James Coburn. Lots of blinkenlights.

You didn't even identify it, but what else could it possibly be but, "The
Presiden'ts Analyst"!?


TPC, indeed!



From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Tue Jun  5 22:21:52 2012
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 23:21:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <D5E65916-96A5-49D6-BCA5-1745AD60AAA9@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206052320560.31315@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEMSFx8pls
>> Start at 1:29:00.
>> Cheesy 60's movie with James Coburn. Lots of blinkenlights.
>
> You didn't even identify it, but what else could it possibly be but, "The
> Presiden'ts Analyst"!?

    Panels from the SAGE computer were used as props in that movie:

http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/scifi/Analyst/


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology	      http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Jun  5 22:25:58 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:25:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <4FCEB121.6040007@neurotica.com>
References: <mailman.577.1338927811.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <5181C117B32841E5B3DF186FC79662C7@vl420mt> <4FCEB121.6040007@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20120605202523.B52881@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
>   An "Internet modem"?

2400 bps or higher?


From n0body.h0me at inbox.com  Tue Jun  5 23:02:43 2012
From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 20:02:43 -0800
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKLqsz8NDh=JxpcXUcsYppAz2hOs=9oe3tZoLp8zk5QPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1043ab2089f.0000019an0body.h0me@inbox.com>
 <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
 <cam2uow+5dju6mh+pbpbdt2ei-3ukad7uahtsk3n5dughqzym4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <cam2uowj6qa9=fahpocgqksobdc=hy7olnsgqbtjnt0cze0r-sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <snt137-ds1067aa7387c08ead5832d281080@phx.gbl>
 <08e601cd4338$2992f9a0$7cb8ece0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <16D4DB7DF2E.000009EFn0body.h0me@inbox.com>


Now see, I used to have one almost like that; it was a different
color (off white), quite a bit shorter, and it didn't have that
mounting screw....
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: glen.slick at gmail.com
> Sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 09:40:16 -0700
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> 
> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>> Not having seen a BC18Z I can't say, but I could post photos of the
>> BC19S if that helps. The BC19S has a block near the BNC connectors where
>> you plug in the keyboard and mouse, it also has a screw sticking out of
>> the block, I think it is designed to screw into certain CRTs to hold the
>> block in place.
>> 
> 
> Does it look just like this, but maybe shorter?
> 
> http://www.circuitsurgeon.com/forsale/bc18z.jpg
> (not my picture, just found it on the net)
> 
> How long is your BC19S?  I think the BC18Z I have is a -25 foot
> version, which is a bit longer than I need.

____________________________________________________________
FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!
Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth





From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Jun  5 23:53:33 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:53:33 -0700
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication (was: Re: Line length ...)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo>
Message-ID: <4FCEE24D.9040108@brouhaha.com>

Steven Hirsch wrote:
> Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but I do not like the current trend 
> towards putting my own data on third-party remote sites.

When used in regard to computing, the "u" in the word "cloud" is silent.



From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed Jun  6 00:17:09 2012
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 22:17:09 -0700
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <D5E65916-96A5-49D6-BCA5-1745AD60AAA9@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CFD6746C-9D33-43E0-B2D3-9692BCA91754@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2012 Jun 5, at 7:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEMSFx8pls
>> Start at 1:29:00.
>> Cheesy 60's movie with James Coburn. Lots of blinkenlights.
>
> You didn't even identify it, but what else could it possibly be  
> but, "The
> Presiden'ts Analyst"!?

Well, I thought I'd leave a little discovery for the enthused,  
although I guess it's not just a click away for everybody.

You mean you knew without having to check? Sheer coincidence, I ran  
across it just the night before. Seems I somehow missed it in the  
intervening 44 years. And I like to think I'm pretty well versed in  
60's flicks, so it was a surprise.


> TPC, indeed!

"And because of this irrational dislike of their own publically-owned  
company,
they often don't pay their bills and sometimes even damage the  
equipment!"


From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Wed Jun  6 00:37:00 2012
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 22:37:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCE49EB.31927.8BFCE@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FCE0167.10016.F03F6B@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <CAB3bDi68MarYnk-DzHZfQTJEV6cw1ZOEaTpUOxYtyeNbtO9xvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCE49EB.31927.8BFCE@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206052236230.12521@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 5 Jun 2012 at 18:17, David Ryskalczyk wrote:
>
>> I'm looking for other unusual floppy drives, but even these Kodaks are
>> hard enough to find.
>
> I do have a 6.6MB Kodak drive (and media).  It looks a lot like the
> 3.3.

How about some photos and a write-up?  They would be nice to add that to 
Wikipedia's articles on floppy disks.

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed Jun  6 00:40:00 2012
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 22:40:00 -0700
Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206052320560.31315@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <D5E65916-96A5-49D6-BCA5-1745AD60AAA9@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206052320560.31315@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <DBB7A17F-51F2-4CD2-BAA3-42DADCD8A5F5@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2012 Jun 5, at 8:21 PM, Mike Loewen wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OEMSFx8pls
>>> Start at 1:29:00.
>>> Cheesy 60's movie with James Coburn. Lots of blinkenlights.
>>
>> You didn't even identify it, but what else could it possibly be  
>> but, "The
>> Presiden'ts Analyst"!?
>
>    Panels from the SAGE computer were used as props in that movie:
>
> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/scifi/Analyst/

(.. yes, I did recognise them)

What I always wondered about those SAGE consoles used in the movies  
is how the props people wrested them out of the Air Force so early.  
SAGE had barely become fully functional when they got them (from your  
pages Fox obtained them in 1966; from the MITRE site SAGE was fully  
functional in 1964). Sure, some of the production was some years  
older, but not very.

-

Here's a little hindsight thought experiment: if the SAGE hardware  
had been reimplemented in solid-state in, say, the late 60s, would it  
have been more cost-effective than running and maintaining the tube  
version for the remaining 15 or so years of the system's life?

I suppose the real-politik answer is the system was obsolete by that  
time anyways and it was just bureaucratic face-saving that kept it  
running, but I'm thinking of the technical answer.



From microcode at zoho.com  Wed Jun  6 00:52:31 2012
From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 05:52:31 +0000
Subject: Mystery Panel
In-Reply-To: <4FCE756B.4000107@update.uu.se>
References: <CAEfH1SEbbu+Ku+WROeLw1fhUCjmiADBt-FAmiM2mYdGJwMZLEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCE756B.4000107@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <201206060552.q565qbZF047882@billy.ezwind.net>

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 23:08:59 +0200
Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:

> It looks vaguely IBM-ish.

I don't think so. It's very crude.

> Like a status header for a tape drive?

You can see words like EAST VEST. Maybe in a Nordic language, I figured
you would know!

Maybe it's an antenna rotator or something like that?

> > https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/MysteryTelcoPanel



From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Jun  6 00:54:46 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 22:54:46 -0700
Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <DBB7A17F-51F2-4CD2-BAA3-42DADCD8A5F5@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <D5E65916-96A5-49D6-BCA5-1745AD60AAA9@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206052320560.31315@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <DBB7A17F-51F2-4CD2-BAA3-42DADCD8A5F5@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <4FCEF0A6.6090705@bitsavers.org>

On 6/5/12 10:40 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> if the SAGE hardware had been reimplemented in solid-state

It was reimplemented by IBM As the IBM 4020. Two were built
one became the AN/FSQ-32 timesharing system at SDC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/FSQ-32

SAGE was already an obsolete technology because of the ICBM
before the transistorized systems were built.




From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed Jun  6 01:19:02 2012
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 23:19:02 -0700
Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <4FCEF0A6.6090705@bitsavers.org>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <D5E65916-96A5-49D6-BCA5-1745AD60AAA9@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206052320560.31315@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <DBB7A17F-51F2-4CD2-BAA3-42DADCD8A5F5@cs.ubc.ca>
 <4FCEF0A6.6090705@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <91DDA45A-BE85-4EF0-BAF6-9F61032B2E6D@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2012 Jun 5, at 10:54 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 6/5/12 10:40 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> if the SAGE hardware had been reimplemented in solid-state
>
> It was reimplemented by IBM As the IBM 4020. Two were built
> one became the AN/FSQ-32 timesharing system at SDC.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/FSQ-32
>
> SAGE was already an obsolete technology because of the ICBM
> before the transistorized systems were built.

Very interesting. I get the feeling from the description though, that  
it was targetted to replace SAGE, rather than reimplementing the SAGE  
architecture.

In any case, it never did replace SAGE, so my question is still  
there, along with why the 32 didn't do (perhaps too early as a solid- 
state machine, to make it worthwhile).


From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 03:26:27 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 10:26:27 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <m1SbzLB-000J4fC@p850ug1>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206051104480.19228@linuxserv.home>
 <m1SbzLB-000J4fC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5RJL4FvbPChG28rnvwJuuF=uzPZ+NRWw4+GrTD5mKtmgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Still looking for a floppy based OS.
>
> What, for the P800s?
>
> THey'll take some finding, but I should have the OS for my P851 (this has
> 32K words of MOS memory, a termianl interface and an FDC). I will see
> what I can dig out.

I'll second that request. On the P859, I got the floppy drive going.
Using the FLDB interface card, set to the correct CU address, I can
elicit head movements on the 8" floppy drive by doing an IPL from
device 03. Of course, I have no floppies for the P800s, let alone
IPL'able ones. Most of the 8" media I have is RX01.

Btw, Tony, I just noticed you have P850 in your e-mail address. I take
it this is unintentional?

Camiel.


From eivinde at terraplane.org  Wed Jun  6 04:25:35 2012
From: eivinde at terraplane.org (Eivind Evensen)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 11:25:35 +0200
Subject: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>

On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 10:20:00PM +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> BTW: I'm currently 49 years old, have a little more than "normal" activity
> on the net, worked as Unix Sysop for many years...but I still don't know
> what for I should need Twitter and Facebook..

It's there to waste time. Or optionally so people can reveal
parts of they private life, then regret they didn't keep it private.
-- 
Eivind


From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Wed Jun  6 08:01:04 2012
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 09:01:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <DBB7A17F-51F2-4CD2-BAA3-42DADCD8A5F5@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <D5E65916-96A5-49D6-BCA5-1745AD60AAA9@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206052320560.31315@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <DBB7A17F-51F2-4CD2-BAA3-42DADCD8A5F5@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206060851060.5949@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote:

> On 2012 Jun 5, at 8:21 PM, Mike Loewen wrote:
>>
>>   Panels from the SAGE computer were used as props in that movie:
>> 
>> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/scifi/Analyst/
>
> (.. yes, I did recognise them)
>
> What I always wondered about those SAGE consoles used in the movies is how 
> the props people wrested them out of the Air Force so early. SAGE had barely 
> become fully functional when they got them (from your pages Fox obtained them 
> in 1966; from the MITRE site SAGE was fully functional in 1964). Sure, some 
> of the production was some years older, but not very.

    According to Radomes:

http://www.radomes.org/museum/sagedocs.html

    ...the first SAGE site to be decommissioned was Beale AFB in August of 
1963. The equipment from Beale was a likely candidate to end up at either 
Fox or Vectrex.

Decommissioning dates:

Beale AFB, CA		08/01/63
Minot AFB, ND		08/15/63
Larson AFB, WA		09/01/63
Grand Forks AFB, ND	12/01/63
K.I.Sawyer AFB, MI	12/15/63



Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology	      http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/


From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed Jun  6 08:15:23 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 06:15:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> from Eivind
 Evensen at "Jun 6, 12 11:25:35 am"
Message-ID: <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>

> > BTW: I'm currently 49 years old, have a little more than "normal" activity
> > on the net, worked as Unix Sysop for many years...but I still don't know
> > what for I should need Twitter and Facebook..
> 
> It's there to waste time. Or optionally so people can reveal
> parts of they private life, then regret they didn't keep it private.

I use Twitter as sort of a "hep IRC." But it helps to have your own client
(TTYtter), which is text-based, and the presence of a (somewhat) stable 3rd
party API is Twitter's ace in the hole. So it cuts down on a lot of crap
to have it whistling merrily away in a terminal window and I can glance at it
when I notice a lot of activity.

I don't trust Facebook.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- The fact that it works is immaterial. -- L. Ogborn -------------------------


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  6 08:48:04 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 06:48:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
Message-ID: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


I have 2 count them 2 Zenith minisports with 2.5 inch drives. Now thats unusual. No disks though.
------------------------------
 On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 10:37 PM PDT David Griffith wrote:
 
 >On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
 >
 >> On 5 Jun 2012 at 18:17, David Ryskalczyk wrote:
 >>
 >> I'm looking for other unusual floppy drives, but even these Kodaks are
 >> hard enough to find.
 >>
 >> I do have a 6.6MB Kodak drive (and media). It looks a lot like the
 >> 3.3.
 >
 >How about some photos and a write-up? They would be nice to add that to 
 >Wikipedia's articles on floppy disks.
 >
 >-- 
 >David Griffith
 >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
 >
 >A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
 >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
 >A: Top-posting.
 >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From holm at freibergnet.de  Wed Jun  6 09:50:49 2012
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:50:49 +0200
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
 <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de>

Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> > > BTW: I'm currently 49 years old, have a little more than "normal" activity
> > > on the net, worked as Unix Sysop for many years...but I still don't know
> > > what for I should need Twitter and Facebook..
> > 
> > It's there to waste time. Or optionally so people can reveal
> > parts of they private life, then regret they didn't keep it private.
> 
> I use Twitter as sort of a "hep IRC." But it helps to have your own client
> (TTYtter), which is text-based, and the presence of a (somewhat) stable 3rd
> party API is Twitter's ace in the hole. So it cuts down on a lot of crap
> to have it whistling merrily away in a terminal window and I can glance at it
> when I notice a lot of activity.
> 
> I don't trust Facebook.
> 
> -- 
> ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
>   Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
> -- The fact that it works is immaterial. -- L. Ogborn -------------------------


Hmm, it seems, that I don't even need something like IRC..
I do have a phone flaterate, it is much less hassle to call the person on
the phone...

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 10:08:37 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:08:37 +0100
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
 <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>
 <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEfsy1n0qgj8fL4VbTuFNzU1bbnDWOy6YKsBqQGK73T2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 June 2012 15:50, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
>
> Hmm, it seems, that I don't even need something like IRC..
> I do have a phone flaterate, it is much less hassle to call the person on
> the phone...

Oh come now, don't be silly.

You can't readily talk to dozens of different people at once, all over
the world, free of charge, including possibly people who are deaf or
who can read and write a common language but not speak it, using a
single phone call. And even if you could, you could not realistically
remain present in said conference-call, occasionally interacting with
it, while you went ahead with other tasks at the same time.

This is like the Luddite friends of mine who refuse to use social
networks or email and complain that I could just phone them when I
want to invite them to an event.

I commonly invite a couple of hundred people at once to events. I
cannot do that by phoning them all; even emailing them all is a major
pain. This is the sort of thing social networks excel at.

You don't have to use them; feel free not to. But my friend who refuse
to are, by and large, friends who I do not invite to things.

They don't have to use the socnets, but equally, I do not have to
waste hours of my time and lots of money individually contacting those
people who refuse to use nasty modern tools.

I could also write letters to those who can't or won't use nasty
modern telephones. I could personally visit those who won't use the
post. I could arrange the event somewhere with car parking for those
who will not use public transport; I could be sure to arrange it in
walking distance for those who will not use wheeled vehicles.

Yes, I know of people who refuse all these things.

But I am not going to do it. *They* expect *me* to go to special
lengths because of *their* idiosyncratic, non-conformist preferences
and neophobia.

Well, no. There is no single point at which you can draw a line and
say, up to this point is reasonable, but beyond it is unreasonable.

Socnets are just a tool - a free and easy one. Sure, don't use them if
you don't want, but in doing so you must accept that you are going to
miss out on lots of stuff. That's fine - it's your choice. But it is
not fair or acceptable to ask others to go out of their way or to
endure inconvenience to satisfy your whimsical preferences.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 10:22:51 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 11:22:51 -0400
Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <DBB7A17F-51F2-4CD2-BAA3-42DADCD8A5F5@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo>
 <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <D5E65916-96A5-49D6-BCA5-1745AD60AAA9@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206052320560.31315@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <DBB7A17F-51F2-4CD2-BAA3-42DADCD8A5F5@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <CANij+deJ3S6iiBXari4p=tQW7CiEg6YsuTSfk5PhRh4mG27=ww@mail.gmail.com>

> Here's a little hindsight thought experiment: if the SAGE hardware had been
> reimplemented in solid-state in, say, the late 60s, would it have been more
> cost-effective than running and maintaining the tube version for the
> remaining 15 or so years of the system's life?

"Cost effective" would never have been an issue. Running an AN/FSQ-7,
as expensive as it sounds, is peanuts compared to just keeping one
F-102 aircraft fed and maintained.

--
Will


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun  6 10:31:47 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 08:31:47 -0700
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FCF1573.30855.95EED@cclist.sydex.com>

On 6 Jun 2012 at 6:48, Chris Tofu wrote:

> 
> I have 2 count them 2 Zenith minisports with 2.5 inch drives. Now
> thats unusual. No disks though. ------------------------------

Yup, I've seen them.  AFAIK, the Minisport was the only widely-
available system to use them, unless there was an early digicam.  No 
radical advance in technology, just a different physical size.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun  6 10:33:31 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 08:33:31 -0700
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206052236230.12521@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <4FCC91E4.14502.4D557C@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FCE49EB.31927.8BFCE@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206052236230.12521@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <4FCF15DB.10570.AF53C@cclist.sydex.com>

On 5 Jun 2012 at 22:37, David Griffith wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> 
> > On 5 Jun 2012 at 18:17, David Ryskalczyk wrote:
> >
> >> I'm looking for other unusual floppy drives, but even these Kodaks
> >> are hard enough to find.
> >
> > I do have a 6.6MB Kodak drive (and media).  It looks a lot like the
> > 3.3.
> 
> How about some photos and a write-up?  They would be nice to add that
> to Wikipedia's articles on floppy disks.

The media looks like ordinary 5.25" media, so no interesting there.  
The drive itself looks a lot like the 320.  Kodak really didn't do 
much with the technology after they picked it up from the wreckage of 
Drivetec.

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Jun  6 11:59:47 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 09:59:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCF1573.30855.95EED@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FCF1573.30855.95EED@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20120606095443.S71164@shell.lmi.net>

> On 6 Jun 2012 at 6:48, Chris Tofu wrote:
> > I have 2 count them 2 Zenith minisports with 2.5 inch drives. Now
> > thats unusual. No disks though. ------------------------------
On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Yup, I've seen them.  AFAIK, the Minisport was the only widely-
> available system to use them, unless there was an early digicam.  No
> radical advance in technology, just a different physical size.

Wasn't there a camera (Canon?) that used them?  Or was that a DIFFERENT
2.5"? - there were several competing 2.5" (and a 2.9" spiral) technologies
being shown around that time.

"Market research studies, and Bernie Zilbergeld, say that it is 'TOO
small'"
Wonder whether they ever adapted to SD and MICRO-SD?


All media in that size range should have a hole through it (center or
corner) to string them together on a key-ring.


From billdeg at degnanco.com  Wed Jun  6 12:02:30 2012
From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 13:02:30 -0400
Subject: Byte Magazines For Sale
Message-ID: <201206061702.q56H2nTR062618@billy.ezwind.net>

I set up a page to sell of spare Byte magazine copies.  The page has 
directions, will ship worldwide.
http://www.degnanco.net/contact_byte.cfm
Bill
vintagecomputer.net




From jecel at merlintec.com  Wed Jun  6 12:31:33 2012
From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 14:31:33 -0300 
Subject: Tek 4404 launch (was: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles)
In-Reply-To: <4FCEB9A9.3040908@brouhaha.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
 <001301cd433d$54e60840$feb218c0$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sc0Pe-0005Am-Gj@shell.xmission.com>
 <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D4303@mail.bensene.com>
 <4FCEB9A9.3040908@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <201206061731.q56HVk6A063409@billy.ezwind.net>

Eric Smith wrote:
> Rick Bensene wrote about Tektronix stuff:
> > ranging from the amazing Magnolia Smalltalk Workstation from
> > 1976-ish,
> 
> Really? That date is extremely hard to believe.

Yeah, I had been interested in creating a Smalltalk computer since the
famous August 1981 Byte but had figured lots of well funded companies
would do a better job. By July 1984 it seemed that nobody was going to
do it, so I started the project I am still working on today (sorry - I
am a bit slooooow). The Tektronix 4404 Artificial Intelligence
Workstation was announced right after that, so I had to consider very
carefully whether it made sense for me to continue. I figured I could
make a smaller, but still usable version for around 1/3 of the $14,950
price and so it was worth trying.

Allen Wirfs-Brock posted technical details about the machine on
September 18, 1984 to the "net.works" newsgroup and suggested that
people take a look at the next Tektronix catalog. I have the 1985
catalog and page 63 is dedicated to the 4404.

> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/net.works/K5i_oHCJuAk

-- Jecel
p.s.: Smalltalk-72 and -74 were very different from the current
language, while -76 (available in 1977) would be recognized as Smalltalk
by today's programmers



From fjkraan at xs4all.nl  Wed Jun  6 12:39:31 2012
From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 19:39:31 +0200
Subject: 2.9" spiral disks. Was: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1339002004.93110.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1339002004.93110.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4FCF95D3.4040401@xs4all.nl>

> Wasn't there a camera (Canon?) that used them?  Or was that a DIFFERENT
> 2.5"? - there were several competing 2.5" (and a 2.9" spiral) technologies
> being shown around that time.

Akai used a 2.8" spiral disk in a range of samplers in 1985. To add to
the confusion, the disks were called QD, for "quick disk". The whole
disk was read into memory in one read action, maybe that makes them quick.

http://www.vintagesynth.com/akai/s612.php

Fred Jan


From holm at freibergnet.de  Wed Jun  6 12:41:10 2012
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 19:41:10 +0200
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEfsy1n0qgj8fL4VbTuFNzU1bbnDWOy6YKsBqQGK73T2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
 <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>
 <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAMTenCEfsy1n0qgj8fL4VbTuFNzU1bbnDWOy6YKsBqQGK73T2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de>

Liam Proven wrote:

> On 6 June 2012 15:50, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hmm, it seems, that I don't even need something like IRC..
> > I do have a phone flaterate, it is much less hassle to call the person on
> > the phone...
> 
> Oh come now, don't be silly.
> 
> You can't readily talk to dozens of different people at once, all over
> the world, free of charge, including possibly people who are deaf or
> who can read and write a common language but not speak it, using a
> single phone call. And even if you could, you could not realistically
> remain present in said conference-call, occasionally interacting with
> it, while you went ahead with other tasks at the same time.
> 
> This is like the Luddite friends of mine who refuse to use social
> networks or email and complain that I could just phone them when I
> want to invite them to an event.
> 
> I commonly invite a couple of hundred people at once to events. I
> cannot do that by phoning them all; even emailing them all is a major
> pain. This is the sort of thing social networks excel at.
> 
> You don't have to use them; feel free not to. But my friend who refuse
> to are, by and large, friends who I do not invite to things.
> 
> They don't have to use the socnets, but equally, I do not have to
> waste hours of my time and lots of money individually contacting those
> people who refuse to use nasty modern tools.
> 
> I could also write letters to those who can't or won't use nasty
> modern telephones. I could personally visit those who won't use the
> post. I could arrange the event somewhere with car parking for those
> who will not use public transport; I could be sure to arrange it in
> walking distance for those who will not use wheeled vehicles.
> 
> Yes, I know of people who refuse all these things.
> 
> But I am not going to do it. *They* expect *me* to go to special
> lengths because of *their* idiosyncratic, non-conformist preferences
> and neophobia.
> 
> Well, no. There is no single point at which you can draw a line and
> say, up to this point is reasonable, but beyond it is unreasonable.
> 
> Socnets are just a tool - a free and easy one. Sure, don't use them if
> you don't want, but in doing so you must accept that you are going to
> miss out on lots of stuff. That's fine - it's your choice. But it is
> not fair or acceptable to ask others to go out of their way or to
> endure inconvenience to satisfy your whimsical preferences.
> 
> -- 
> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884


Hehe, it seems you have problems I don't have and that I don't want.

If you need to invite hundrets of people to eveents, please do that like
you want, I just don't need to do that.
I can mail all of my friends and all of my customers or only some of them,
no need to chat... that's all.

I don't have any phobia, but it seems you have one: that you are get
disconnected...

Anyways, do what you like, so as I do.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed Jun  6 12:51:58 2012
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 10:51:58 -0700
Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206060851060.5949@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <D5E65916-96A5-49D6-BCA5-1745AD60AAA9@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206052320560.31315@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <DBB7A17F-51F2-4CD2-BAA3-42DADCD8A5F5@cs.ubc.ca>
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206060851060.5949@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <7BFEF1E5-B2AA-4037-90DE-BF2787C1E416@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2012 Jun 6, at 6:01 AM, Mike Loewen wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>>
>> What I always wondered about those SAGE consoles used in the  
>> movies is how the props people wrested them out of the Air Force  
>> so early. SAGE had barely become fully functional when they got  
>> them (from your pages Fox obtained them in 1966; from the MITRE  
>> site SAGE was fully functional in 1964). Sure, some of the  
>> production was some years older, but not very.
>
>    According to Radomes:
>
> http://www.radomes.org/museum/sagedocs.html
>
>    ...the first SAGE site to be decommissioned was Beale AFB in  
> August of 1963. The equipment from Beale was a likely candidate to  
> end up at either Fox or Vectrex.
>
> Decommissioning dates:
>
> Beale AFB, CA		08/01/63
> Minot AFB, ND		08/15/63
> Larson AFB, WA		09/01/63
> Grand Forks AFB, ND	12/01/63
> K.I.Sawyer AFB, MI	12/15/63

Thanks for finding that, wish the data were organised in one table  
though. Going through the pages it looks like most of the sites were  
deactivated by 1969.



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun  6 13:02:03 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 11:02:03 -0700
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <20120606095443.S71164@shell.lmi.net>
References: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
 <4FCF1573.30855.95EED@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120606095443.S71164@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FCF38AB.6489.92F036@cclist.sydex.com>

On 6 Jun 2012 at 9:59, Fred Cisin wrote:


> Wasn't there a camera (Canon?) that used them?  Or was that a
> DIFFERENT 2.5"? - there were several competing 2.5" (and a 2.9"
> spiral) technologies being shown around that time.

Well, we still have hard-disk Microdrives (e.g. IBM, Seagate, Qrisma) 
that fall into that category, even if they're sealed units.  3.25" 
floppies were a particularly bad idea--there's no way they'd survive 
long carried in a shirt pocket.

> All media in that size range should have a hole through it (center or
> corner) to string them together on a key-ring.

MicroSD is indeed too smal in my experience.  I have a jar sitting on 
my desk here that holds SD and MicroSD (and MMC) chips.  Otherwise, 
I'd lose them in a drawer.

As far as hanging off a keyring, I've long thought that was a bad 
idea, if you actually have keys on the same ring, as well as coins in 
the same pocket.  

If I look at the keys on my keyring, several have had the nickel 
plating abraded off simply from being carried around.  I'm on my 
fourth or fifth mini tape-measure, others having been chewed up and I 
never could get a keyring LED to hold up for more than a couple of 
months.

But even for an old guy, I'm pretty active.  Office-chair pilots and 
couch potatoes may get better mileage from their pocket memory 
devices.

--Chuck






From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Wed Jun  6 13:01:10 2012
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 11:01:10 -0700
Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deJ3S6iiBXari4p=tQW7CiEg6YsuTSfk5PhRh4mG27=ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <D5E65916-96A5-49D6-BCA5-1745AD60AAA9@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206052320560.31315@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <DBB7A17F-51F2-4CD2-BAA3-42DADCD8A5F5@cs.ubc.ca>
 <CANij+deJ3S6iiBXari4p=tQW7CiEg6YsuTSfk5PhRh4mG27=ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <402E3063-15D2-4957-BE32-31D61D8B56DD@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2012 Jun 6, at 8:22 AM, William Donzelli wrote:

>> Here's a little hindsight thought experiment: if the SAGE hardware  
>> had been
>> reimplemented in solid-state in, say, the late 60s, would it have  
>> been more
>> cost-effective than running and maintaining the tube version for the
>> remaining 15 or so years of the system's life?
>
> "Cost effective" would never have been an issue. Running an AN/FSQ-7,
> as expensive as it sounds, is peanuts compared to just keeping one
> F-102 aircraft fed and maintained.

No, not to the bureaucracy (I was getting at that in my first message).

Going from the pages Mike ref'd, I didn't realise so many of the  
sites had been decommissioned so early and only a lesser portion hung  
on to the 80s.


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun  6 13:09:12 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 11:09:12 -0700
Subject: 2.9" spiral disks. Was: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCF95D3.4040401@xs4all.nl>
References: <mailman.3.1339002004.93110.cctech@classiccmp.org>,
 <4FCF95D3.4040401@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <4FCF3A58.6609.997CB9@cclist.sydex.com>

On 6 Jun 2012 at 19:39, Fred Jan Kraan wrote:

 
> Akai used a 2.8" spiral disk in a range of samplers in 1985. To add to
> the confusion, the disks were called QD, for "quick disk". The whole
> disk was read into memory in one read action, maybe that makes them
> quick.
> 
> http://www.vintagesynth.com/akai/s612.php

Also used on Smith-Corona portable wapros, called "DataDisk" (as 
opposed to "ChoppedLiverDisk") and sold as 2.8".   SCM used about 
50KHz MFM recording and got about 60K on each.

Same disk as the synth one, different label.  I think the drives in 
both cases were the same.

--Chuck



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Jun  6 13:23:18 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 14:23:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
 <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>
 <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAMTenCEfsy1n0qgj8fL4VbTuFNzU1bbnDWOy6YKsBqQGK73T2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <201206061823.OAA17270@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Socnets are just a tool - a free and easy one.

Um.  No.

They are not free.  They entail some substantial costs - non-monetary,
many of them, but that does not make them any less costs.  They entail
surrendering a substantial level of control over one's privacy and
various aspects of one's own identity.  In many cases they demand a
relatively modern computer and, in some of those cases, turning control
of it over to someone else's software.

These may be costs you consider ignorable.  They may be costs you have
already paid.  But they are still costs, costs that for some people are
significant.

As for `easy', that's a very personal judgement call.  I have watched
people use Facebook and its ilk; there is very little I would find easy
about using them.

>> Sure, don't use them if you don't want, but in doing so you must
>> accept that you are going to miss out on lots of stuff.  That's fine
>> - it's your choice.  But it is not fair or acceptable to ask others
>> to go out of their way or to endure inconvenience to satisfy your
>> whimsical preferences.

Why not?  You seem to feel it's perfectly acceptable to ask _us_ to put
up with _your_ preferences....

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 13:28:00 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 14:28:00 -0400
Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <402E3063-15D2-4957-BE32-31D61D8B56DD@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo>
 <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <D5E65916-96A5-49D6-BCA5-1745AD60AAA9@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206052320560.31315@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <DBB7A17F-51F2-4CD2-BAA3-42DADCD8A5F5@cs.ubc.ca>
 <CANij+deJ3S6iiBXari4p=tQW7CiEg6YsuTSfk5PhRh4mG27=ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <402E3063-15D2-4957-BE32-31D61D8B56DD@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <CANij+dc2u8aD5Cb13-TQTzHvyHqu4RnceVPQMN=6PXd=uOHSyA@mail.gmail.com>

> Going from the pages Mike ref'd, I didn't realise so many of the sites had
> been decommissioned so early and only a lesser portion hung on to the 80s.

I wonder if that has to do with better radars?

--
Will


From dm561 at torfree.net  Wed Jun  6 13:28:39 2012
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 14:28:39 -0400
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
References: <mailman.1.1339002002.93110.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <E5BE0AF54BE741318A93D6D87ABB633D@vl420mt>

----- Original Message:
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:08:37 +0100
From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>

> ...I commonly invite a couple of hundred people at once to events. I
> cannot do that by phoning them all; even emailing them all is a major
> pain. This is the sort of thing social networks excel at.

> You don't have to use them; feel free not to. But my friend who refuse to
> are, by and large, friends who I do not invite to things.

----- Reply:

Considering how little you obviously value those "friendships", they
probably don't mind at all...

And I suppose even semi-professional writers ignoring rules of grammar is 
just another one of those modern "efficiencies"...

Signs of the times...



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun  6 13:33:00 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 11:33:00 -0700
Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <7BFEF1E5-B2AA-4037-90DE-BF2787C1E416@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206060851060.5949@cpumagic.137clearview.org>,
 <7BFEF1E5-B2AA-4037-90DE-BF2787C1E416@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <4FCF3FEC.19690.AF4795@cclist.sydex.com>

On 6 Jun 2012 at 10:51, Brent Hilpert wrote:

> Thanks for finding that, wish the data were organised in one table 
> though. Going through the pages it looks like most of the sites were 
> deactivated by 1969.

At one point in my life, I had a unit manager who'd gotten his 
experience with SAGE.  He said the operators used to stash lunch bags 
in the cabinets to keep the contents warm.  I have no idea if he was 
pulling my leg...

--Chuck



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 13:33:30 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 14:33:30 -0400
Subject: Mac IIci/IIcx/Quadra 700 PSU schematics?
Message-ID: <35704CA5-D185-4EB9-A07D-A58700E421A1@gmail.com>

I've recently acquired a Quadra 700 from eBay.  The power supply seems to
be dead in the water; no voltage whatsoever on any of the lines, including
the +5v trickle.  Before I go delving into finding what may be wrong with
the supply, does anyone happen to have a schematic for the GE version of
this power supply?  There's one available from bomarc.org, but they only
deal with physical checks and mail, which means it would probably be about
a week before I got anything back.

Likewise, if anyone knows common failure modes for this particular supply
(the Astec one has a known failure in the +5v trickle with a known hackish
workaround, but the GE supply has a totally different reference designator
schema and possibly completely different circuitry), I'd be interested in
hearing about it.

- Dave



From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Wed Jun  6 13:37:49 2012
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 14:37:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <402E3063-15D2-4957-BE32-31D61D8B56DD@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206042107240.15156@duo>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206050442430.29398@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206051124490.15156@duo> <4FCE5310.2010204@neurotica.com>
 <20120605202000.GB69720@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120605220425.GC5302@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <D5E65916-96A5-49D6-BCA5-1745AD60AAA9@cs.ubc.ca>
 <20120605195726.X52319@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206052320560.31315@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <DBB7A17F-51F2-4CD2-BAA3-42DADCD8A5F5@cs.ubc.ca>
 <CANij+deJ3S6iiBXari4p=tQW7CiEg6YsuTSfk5PhRh4mG27=ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <402E3063-15D2-4957-BE32-31D61D8B56DD@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206061434220.5949@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote:

> Going from the pages Mike ref'd, I didn't realise so many of the sites had 
> been decommissioned so early and only a lesser portion hung on to the 80s.

    To add to that history, the Hughes 5118/1116-based AN/FYQ-93 which 
replaced the AN/FSQ-7 (SAGE) at McChord was in service from 1983 until 
2006.  Its replacement was the AN/FYQ-156 BCS-F (Battle Control System - 
Fixed), built around HP servers:

http://www.radomes.org/museum/equip/radarequip.php?link=fyq-156.html


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology	      http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/


From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 13:57:03 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 19:57:03 +0100
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
 <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>
 <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAMTenCEfsy1n0qgj8fL4VbTuFNzU1bbnDWOy6YKsBqQGK73T2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGJd_SAZieMpYFtqozoZWrh00KJxCD89v_WLW+S4bCefw@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 June 2012 18:41, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> Hehe, it seems you have problems I don't have and that I don't want.

What problems?

> If you need to invite hundrets of people to eveents, please do that like
> you want, I just don't need to do that.

Well, if you don't have many friends or never throw big parties, I am
a little sorry for you. Personally, I am gregarious and have lots of
friends. :?)

> I can mail all of my friends and all of my customers or only some of them,
> no need to chat... that's all.

So can I. Sometimes, it is quicker and easier to use a socnet. It is
easier for me to pick, say, the London-based people out of my ~800
friends on Facebook than to choose their email addresses from the
~5000 people in my address book.

> I don't have any phobia, but it seems you have one: that you are get
> disconnected...

Not at all. It's a tool, nothing more. If you don't want to use it,
fine, but it makes you look foolish if you criticise others for no
other reason than that they do use it, or because you don't know how
to.

I've been an IT support professional for 25 years. My tools are my
hands and my brain; I used to carry around some physical media with a
few handy programs on. I don't use a soldering iron - have not since
the 1980s - or a multimeter, ever.

Others regard these as essential tools.

Neither of us is "right" or "wrong" - they're just tools for a job.
I'm primarily a software support guy; if there is a hardware failure,
all I have to do is diagnose it and get someone else to fix it,
generally.

Others are specialists in hardware repair and would not know a Group
Policy from an XML schema. That's fine, too.

You seem to be judging tools by your own use for them, and people by
the tools they use. That is unwise.

> Anyways, do what you like, so as I do.

I usually do. :?)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 13:59:46 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 19:59:46 +0100
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <201206061823.OAA17270@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
 <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>
 <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAMTenCEfsy1n0qgj8fL4VbTuFNzU1bbnDWOy6YKsBqQGK73T2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <201206061823.OAA17270@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCErtTePuVy07o0gY4G0QixOVDjmLMhp9r3ubWp4w6Vc2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 June 2012 19:23, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
>>> Socnets are just a tool - a free and easy one.
>
> Um. ?No.
>
> They are not free. ?They entail some substantial costs - non-monetary,
> many of them, but that does not make them any less costs. ?They entail
> surrendering a substantial level of control over one's privacy and
> various aspects of one's own identity. ?In many cases they demand a
> relatively modern computer and, in some of those cases, turning control
> of it over to someone else's software.

Life involves costs. Big deal. If I don't have to pay money for
something, that means that it's free, in the common daily use of the
word.

> These may be costs you consider ignorable. ?They may be costs you have
> already paid. ?But they are still costs, costs that for some people are
> significant.

Scott McNeally said it first and best. "You *have* no privacy on the
Internet. Get over it."

Nobody is forcing you to use it. Feel free not to.

> As for `easy', that's a very personal judgement call. ?I have watched
> people use Facebook and its ilk; there is very little I would find easy
> about using them.

Let me just check that I've got this straight. So you feel that you
are not competent to use a modern website that is used by about a
billion people and it's the *website's* fault?

Riiiiiiiiiiight... :?D

>>> Sure, don't use them if you don't want, but in doing so you must
>>> accept that you are going to miss out on lots of stuff. ?That's fine
>>> - it's your choice. ?But it is not fair or acceptable to ask others
>>> to go out of their way or to endure inconvenience to satisfy your
>>> whimsical preferences.
>
> Why not? ?You seem to feel it's perfectly acceptable to ask _us_ to put
> up with _your_ preferences....

Such as? The line-length thing? Oh get real!

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun  6 12:44:10 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 18:44:10 +0100 (BST)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5SZpKkGs1+agBQSNycFJfayVgy-fYSda2J8s+Lb1L2Tyw@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jun 5, 12 10:37:18 pm
Message-ID: <m1ScKHI-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> Of my 858/859 CPU's, some are CP7R and some are CP7RA. I don't know
> what the difference between these two is. The difference between the
> 858 and the 859 is whether a front panel with lamps and toggle
> switches is fitted (858) or a front panel with fluorescent hexadecimal
> displays and pushbuttons (859).

In the P854, there are 2 RS232 serial ports on the CPU boards. I think 
they use 8251 USARTs, and are controleld by the processor microcode. One 
is used for the console terminal, the other commnicates with the 
frontpanel, which is a keypad thing wit ha pair of VF displays. There's a 
microcontrolelr (an 8748 I think) on the frontpanel board.

Is the P859 like this? Does the P858 lights-and-swithces panel 
communicate over an serial link. If so, I'd love to know more....

Do you ahve nay docuemtnaion which includes eitehr the source code for 
the panel micrcontrolelr firmware or the communications protocol?

-tony


From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Wed Jun  6 14:10:08 2012
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 15:10:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SAGE meanderings / was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <4FCF3FEC.19690.AF4795@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <201206042234.q54MY53714155944@floodgap.com>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206060851060.5949@cpumagic.137clearview.org>,
 <7BFEF1E5-B2AA-4037-90DE-BF2787C1E416@cs.ubc.ca>
 <4FCF3FEC.19690.AF4795@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206061508400.5949@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> At one point in my life, I had a unit manager who'd gotten his
> experience with SAGE.  He said the operators used to stash lunch bags
> in the cabinets to keep the contents warm.  I have no idea if he was
> pulling my leg...

    Doubtful.  The air going through the frames was cold and the equipment 
was not warm, to my recollection.


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology	      http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/


From holm at freibergnet.de  Wed Jun  6 14:24:15 2012
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 21:24:15 +0200
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <20120606182456.CD9E7929A4FB@bmail.freibergnet.de>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
 <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>
 <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAMTenCEfsy1n0qgj8fL4VbTuFNzU1bbnDWOy6YKsBqQGK73T2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <20120606182456.CD9E7929A4FB@bmail.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20120606192415.GC66968@beast.freibergnet.de>

microcode at zoho.com wrote:

> Hi Holm
> 
> > I don't have any phobia, but it seems you have one: that you are get
> > disconnected...
> 
> No kidding, look at the guy's signature! No less than 14 points of contact!
> I could understand if he was a stockbroker or movie star but...
> 
> > > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> > > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> > > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> > > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
> 
> > Anyways, do what you like, so as I do.
> 
> He's been an idiot for a long time on this list and this post finally was
> too much. He's in my killfile and I don't ever have to read his garbage
> again unless somebody quotes his whole post ;-)
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Israel
> 

People always conclude by themselves on others.
Congrats!

The sig is containing the information that the german law will see as
minimum for business related mail.

Don't remember that I've read ever anything interesting from you,i
this Mail included...

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Wed Jun  6 14:59:32 2012
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 21:59:32 +0200
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGJd_SAZieMpYFtqozoZWrh00KJxCD89v_WLW+S4bCefw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
 <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>
 <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAMTenCEfsy1n0qgj8fL4VbTuFNzU1bbnDWOy6YKsBqQGK73T2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CAMTenCGJd_SAZieMpYFtqozoZWrh00KJxCD89v_WLW+S4bCefw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120606195932.GA76506@beast.freibergnet.de>

Liam Proven wrote:

> On 6 June 2012 18:41, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> > Hehe, it seems you have problems I don't have and that I don't want.
> 
> What problems?

You want to contact hundreds of people, this is a technical problem, that I
simply not have.
> 
> > If you need to invite hundrets of people to eveents, please do that like
> > you want, I just don't need to do that.
> 
> Well, if you don't have many friends or never throw big parties, I am
> a little sorry for you. Personally, I am gregarious and have lots of
> friends. :?)

I prefer to have really a smaller amount of "real" friends.

> 
> > I can mail all of my friends and all of my customers or only some of them,
> > no need to chat... that's all.
> 
> So can I. Sometimes, it is quicker and easier to use a socnet. It is
> easier for me to pick, say, the London-based people out of my ~800
> friends on Facebook than to choose their email addresses from the
> ~5000 people in my address book.
> 
> > I don't have any phobia, but it seems you have one: that you are get
> > disconnected...
> 
> Not at all. It's a tool, nothing more. If you don't want to use it,
> fine, but it makes you look foolish if you criticise others for no
> other reason than that they do use it, or because you don't know how
> to.

Maybe that's the language difference (We could always try to write in
german, I never had english in a school), I don't want/wanted  to criticise
you or others for using Socnets, this was never my intention.

I'm not using them and I never missed something like that.
That is just my point of view, but no criticism.

> 
> I've been an IT support professional for 25 years. My tools are my
> hands and my brain; I used to carry around some physical media with a
> few handy programs on.

Same here.

> I don't use a soldering iron - have not since
> the 1980s - or a multimeter, ever.

I do hardware, repairing developing and programming but not building
besides of hobby projects or prototypes.

> 
> Others regard these as essential tools.
> 
> Neither of us is "right" or "wrong" - they're just tools for a job.
> I'm primarily a software support guy; if there is a hardware failure,
> all I have to do is diagnose it and get someone else to fix it,
> generally.

Nothing wrong here at all.

> 
> Others are specialists in hardware repair and would not know a Group
> Policy from an XML schema. That's fine, too.
> 
> You seem to be judging tools by your own use for them, and people by
> the tools they use. That is unwise.
> 
> > Anyways, do what you like, so as I do.
> 
> I usually do. :?)
> 
> -- 
> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884

Regards,
Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun  6 15:06:07 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 13:06:07 -0700
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGJd_SAZieMpYFtqozoZWrh00KJxCD89v_WLW+S4bCefw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>,
 <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de>,
 <CAMTenCGJd_SAZieMpYFtqozoZWrh00KJxCD89v_WLW+S4bCefw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCF55BF.17189.10489D0@cclist.sydex.com>

On 6 Jun 2012 at 19:57, Liam Proven wrote:

> So can I. Sometimes, it is quicker and easier to use a socnet. It is
> easier for me to pick, say, the London-based people out of my ~800
> friends on Facebook than to choose their email addresses from the
> ~5000 people in my address book.

Well, I differentiate between "friends" and "acquaintances".

An acquaintance is someone you've met and occasionally chat with.

A friend is someone who will bail you out of jail in the middle of 
the night, take you in when you're stranded,  or attend your funeral. 
 
Very different animals in my opinion.  Simply calling someone a 
friend doesn't make him/her one.

--Chuck



From pontus at update.uu.se  Wed Jun  6 15:06:54 2012
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 22:06:54 +0200
Subject: Mystery Panel
In-Reply-To: <201206060552.q565qbZF047882@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <CAEfH1SEbbu+Ku+WROeLw1fhUCjmiADBt-FAmiM2mYdGJwMZLEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCE756B.4000107@update.uu.se>
 <201206060552.q565qbZF047882@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <4FCFB85E.3060800@update.uu.se>

On 06/06/2012 07:52 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote:
>
> I don't think so. It's very crude.

Just a hunch, but you are probably right.

>
> You can see words like EAST VEST. Maybe in a Nordic language, I figured
> you would know!

Not likely. West is Vest in danish and norwegian, but east is ?st and I 
don't know what NOST and LAST would be.

/P


From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 15:10:48 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 22:10:48 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <m1ScKHI-000J4TC@p850ug1>
References: <CA+0-H5SZpKkGs1+agBQSNycFJfayVgy-fYSda2J8s+Lb1L2Tyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <m1ScKHI-000J4TC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5SFcAaobD2hurdcO76kzHD7RCB8+D8AW4t7mKnPGHu+rA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Of my 858/859 CPU's, some are CP7R and some are CP7RA. I don't know
>> what the difference between these two is. The difference between the
>> 858 and the 859 is whether a front panel with lamps and toggle
>> switches is fitted (858) or a front panel with fluorescent hexadecimal
>> displays and pushbuttons (859).
>
> In the P854, there are 2 RS232 serial ports on the CPU boards. I think
> they use 8251 USARTs, and are controleld by the processor microcode. One
> is used for the console terminal, the other commnicates with the
> frontpanel, which is a keypad thing wit ha pair of VF displays. There's a
> microcontrolelr (an 8748 I think) on the frontpanel board.
>
> Is the P859 like this? Does the P858 lights-and-swithces panel
> communicate over an serial link. If so, I'd love to know more....

Yes. It's a serial link, and the protocol is the same between the FRCP
(854 and 859, pushbutton/fluorescent) and ERCP (858,
lights-and-switches, looks identical to the panel on the P856).

> Do you ahve nay docuemtnaion which includes eitehr the source code for
> the panel micrcontrolelr firmware or the communications protocol?

The firmware is not included as far as I can tell, but the
communications protocol is described as follows:

4800 baud, 1 start bit, 8 data bits, 2 stop bits (no parity)

Address: Bx Bx Bx Bx Bx Bx (where x x x x x x are the 6 hex characters
of the address)
Register address: 3x
Data: 3x 3x 3x 3x

Switches:
MCL: 40
LR: 41
RR: 42
RST: 43
IPL: 44
LM(1): 45
LM(2): 55
INT: 46
RM(1): 47
RM(2): 57
LA:48
INST: 49
RPA: 4A
RUN: 4B
PACC: 4C
PWR: 4D
POFF: 4F
TEST: 4E

master-to-panel functions:
RUNZ0 (Run -> Idle): 40
RUNZ1 (Idle -> Run): 41
TEST: 42

This is from the P858, P859 reference manual.

Cheers,

Camiel


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Jun  6 15:35:51 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 13:35:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCF38AB.6489.92F036@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, 
 <4FCF1573.30855.95EED@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120606095443.S71164@shell.lmi.net>
 <4FCF38AB.6489.92F036@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20120606132547.V71164@shell.lmi.net>

> > Wasn't there a camera (Canon?) that used them?  Or was that a
> > DIFFERENT 2.5"? - there were several competing 2.5" (and a 2.9"
> > spiral) technologies being shown around that time.

On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Well, we still have hard-disk Microdrives (e.g. IBM, Seagate, Qrisma)
> that fall into that category, even if they're sealed units.

I was just referring to the floppies.  There were a bucnch of competing
ones introduced around the same time.  Few survivors.

> 3.25"  floppies were a particularly bad idea--there's no way they'd
> survive long carried in a shirt pocket.

The first big battle was, indeed over "shirt pocket".  George Morrow
suggested cutting a deal with the garment industry to change shirt pocket
size!

My take is that Dysan "bet the company" in order to avoid retooling for a
different kind of jacket.

Many "experts" declared that the winner would be the one with the most
software available.  So, Dysan spent everything to create a whole new
software publishing structure, with availability of most of the BIG name
software products on 3.25".  There was a brief period of time, where,
although I couldn't get a machine that came with that drive, I COULD
purchase Lotus, Wordstar, WordPervert, Weird, dBase, Supercalc, etc. on
3.25" diskettes!  The "experts" were very thoroughly WRONG, and the only
machine that reached market that I know of was the Seequa Chameleon 325.

> > All media in that size range should have a hole through it (center or
> > corner) to string them together on a key-ring.
> MicroSD is indeed too smalL in my experience.  I have a jar sitting on
> my desk here that holds SD and MicroSD (and MMC) chips.  Otherwise,
> I'd lose them in a drawer.
> As far as hanging off a keyring, I've long thought that was a bad
> idea, if you actually have keys on the same ring, as well as coins in
> the same pocket.

Good point.
I'll resume my search for an ideal pocket jar.

> But even for an old guy, I'm pretty active.  Office-chair pilots and
> couch potatoes may get better mileage from their pocket memory
> devices.

SO, give me those media with a hole!





From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Jun  6 15:55:38 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 13:55:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <4FCF55BF.17189.10489D0@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>,
 <20120606174110.GA54696@beast.freibergnet.de>,
 <CAMTenCGJd_SAZieMpYFtqozoZWrh00KJxCD89v_WLW+S4bCefw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCF55BF.17189.10489D0@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20120606135333.G71164@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> A friend is someone who will bail you out of jail in the middle of
> the night, take you in when you're stranded,  or attend your funeral.

"A friend will help you move"  For US, that's BIG.
"A REAL friend will help you move a body."





From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun  6 15:58:22 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 13:58:22 -0700
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <20120606132547.V71164@shell.lmi.net>
References: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
 <4FCF38AB.6489.92F036@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120606132547.V71164@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FCF61FE.27341.1345F9A@cclist.sydex.com>

On 6 Jun 2012 at 13:35, Fred Cisin wrote:

> The first big battle was, indeed over "shirt pocket".  George Morrow
> suggested cutting a deal with the garment industry to change shirt
> pocket size!

Not as silly as it sounds.  My newest jacket (the type with a zipper 
on it that you wear to keep warm and dry) has a cellphone/iPod pocket 
on the sleeve.    3.5" floppies fit it nicely.

--Chuck




From silent700 at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 16:53:24 2012
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:53:24 -0500
Subject: Mystery Panel
In-Reply-To: <4FCFB85E.3060800@update.uu.se>
References: <CAEfH1SEbbu+Ku+WROeLw1fhUCjmiADBt-FAmiM2mYdGJwMZLEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCE756B.4000107@update.uu.se> <201206060552.q565qbZF047882@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4FCFB85E.3060800@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SFSth8gn--RR-FYUJs9+q5cHf0hzcKO6=B7JCu33wHagA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> Not likely. West is Vest in danish and norwegian, but east is ?st and I
> don't know what NOST and LAST would be.

All I know is #29 is the one that lights when your burrito is ready :)

-- 
jht



From microcode at zoho.com  Wed Jun  6 17:23:17 2012
From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 22:23:17 +0000
Subject: Mystery Panel
In-Reply-To: <4FCFB85E.3060800@update.uu.se>
References: <CAEfH1SEbbu+Ku+WROeLw1fhUCjmiADBt-FAmiM2mYdGJwMZLEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCE756B.4000107@update.uu.se>
 <201206060552.q565qbZF047882@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4FCFB85E.3060800@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <201206062223.q56MNNEr070709@billy.ezwind.net>

On Wed, 06 Jun 2012 22:06:54 +0200
Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:

> On 06/06/2012 07:52 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote:
> > You can see words like EAST VEST. Maybe in a Nordic language, I figured
> > you would know!
> 
> Not likely. West is Vest in danish and norwegian, but east is ?st and I 
> don't know what NOST and LAST would be.

I would guess North for NOST and, given we already have EAST and VEST and
NOST I would bet even money LAST is SOUTH. But I may be VIST about HAPT.




From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Wed Jun  6 17:59:14 2012
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 15:59:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206061558310.10648@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>

On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 10:37 PM PDT David Griffith wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> >
> >> On 5 Jun 2012 at 18:17, David Ryskalczyk wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm looking for other unusual floppy drives, but even these Kodaks are
> >> hard enough to find.
> >>
> >> I do have a 6.6MB Kodak drive (and media). It looks a lot like the
> >> 3.3.
> >
> >How about some photos and a write-up? They would be nice to add that to
> >Wikipedia's articles on floppy disks.
> I have 2 count them 2 Zenith minisports with 2.5 inch drives. Now thats 
> unusual. No disks though.

A naked drive might be fun to put up.  I've already put an image of a disk 
on Wikipedia.

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Wed Jun  6 18:10:10 2012
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:10:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <20120606095443.S71164@shell.lmi.net>
References: <1338990484.89942.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FCF1573.30855.95EED@cclist.sydex.com> <20120606095443.S71164@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206061600100.10648@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>

On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote:

>> On 6 Jun 2012 at 6:48, Chris Tofu wrote:
>>> I have 2 count them 2 Zenith minisports with 2.5 inch drives. Now
>>> thats unusual. No disks though. ------------------------------
> On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> Yup, I've seen them.  AFAIK, the Minisport was the only widely-
>> available system to use them, unless there was an early digicam.  No
>> radical advance in technology, just a different physical size.
>
> Wasn't there a camera (Canon?) that used them?  Or was that a DIFFERENT
> 2.5"? - there were several competing 2.5" (and a 2.9" spiral) technologies
> being shown around that time.

The Canon Xapshot took a VFD or Video Floppy Disk.  The disk measured 
roughly 2.5" and stored analogue still images.  This was fairly rare, but 
was much more common than the LT1 disk that the Zenith Minisport took. 
There was another 2.5"-ish disk called the QuickDisk which had a single 
track in a spiral.  This was most commonly found in word processors, 
musical equipment, and the Japanese version of the NES.


-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Jun  6 18:59:30 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 19:59:30 -0400
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
 <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>
 <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com>

On 06/06/2012 10:50 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Hmm, it seems, that I don't even need something like IRC..
> I do have a phone flaterate, it is much less hassle to call the person on
> the phone...

  Holm, my friend, this is one area in which you and I must disagree.  I
hate phone calls.  So disruptive.

  Our opinions on social media are very much the same, though.  I have a
Facebook account, but mainly to find and keep in touch with people who
haven't figured out "real email" yet; mainly old childhood friends.
Overall, my position is that I'm a busy guy, and I will NEVER have
enough free time for Facebook.  It's little other than a huge time sink
for people who don't have anything better to do. :-(

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 19:03:20 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 01:03:20 +0100
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <E5BE0AF54BE741318A93D6D87ABB633D@vl420mt>
References: <mailman.1.1339002002.93110.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <E5BE0AF54BE741318A93D6D87ABB633D@vl420mt>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF0sXfVuGazzdcY7R4Nj2kx3SFgLaiGf+UkC3N8KVF4yw@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 June 2012 19:28, MikeS <dm561 at torfree.net> wrote:
> ----- Original Message:
> Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:08:37 +0100
> From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>
>
>> ...I commonly invite a couple of hundred people at once to events. I
>>
>> cannot do that by phoning them all; even emailing them all is a major
>> pain. This is the sort of thing social networks excel at.
>
>> You don't have to use them; feel free not to. But my friend who refuse to
>> are, by and large, friends who I do not invite to things.
>
> Considering how little you obviously value those "friendships", they
> probably don't mind at all...

There are a couple of people - just a handful - who are close enough,
or that I have known for long enough, that I will go out of my way to
ask them. The rest, the other few dozen, who I'd be happy to go for a
drink with but who want me to use 19th century communications to ask
them as we head into the middle of the 2nd decade of the 21st, because
they can't be bothered to learn - nah, sod 'em. Adapt and survive;
fail to adapt, die.

> And I suppose even semi-professional writers ignoring rules of grammar is
> just another one of those modern "efficiencies"...

Hey, anyone can miss a letter! Jeez...

> Signs of the times...

I am rather offended, TBH.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 19:11:23 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 01:11:23 +0100
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
 <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>
 <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGz6cYDy1JF71mdGA8vmRr+KawLZrgHpqgM8-neVvn9wQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 June 2012 00:59, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
> On 06/06/2012 10:50 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>> Hmm, it seems, that I don't even need something like IRC..
>> I do have a phone flaterate, it is much less hassle to call the person on
>> the phone...
>
> ?Holm, my friend, this is one area in which you and I must disagree. ?I
> hate phone calls. ?So disruptive.

Somewhat tend to agree with that myself. I do not tend to use them for
social purposes, although in business, it's different.

> ?Our opinions on social media are very much the same, though. ?I have a
> Facebook account, but mainly to find and keep in touch with people who
> haven't figured out "real email" yet; mainly old childhood friends.
> Overall, my position is that I'm a busy guy, and I will NEVER have
> enough free time for Facebook. ?It's little other than a huge time sink
> for people who don't have anything better to do. :-(

You know, it is not mandatory, or even useful or helpful, to play with
it to use it.

I don't put many pictures on it. I seldom update my status - that's
what Twitter is for, so I feed it through. I prefer email for
contacting people. I don't play any games on it at all and rarely
browse it - maybe on 5-10 min session a week, if that.

You don't need any of that.

But it is becoming the Internet's telephone directory. It is a simple
easy way to find people and build a big address book, to contact them
if needed, and to use as a birthdays-reminder system and so on.
Calling someone for the first time in ages? Quickly look at their page
and see what has happened in their life recently.

Its events system is also usable and can be syndicated out via
standard protocols - I sync mine into my Google Calendar, which is
synched into my phone automatically. Much easier than setting up and
running my own Exchange Server, which I am perfectly capable of doing
but see no reason to.

You don't have to live on the damned thing to make use of it.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Jun  6 19:12:38 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 20:12:38 -0400
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCF0sXfVuGazzdcY7R4Nj2kx3SFgLaiGf+UkC3N8KVF4yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1339002002.93110.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <E5BE0AF54BE741318A93D6D87ABB633D@vl420mt>
 <CAMTenCF0sXfVuGazzdcY7R4Nj2kx3SFgLaiGf+UkC3N8KVF4yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCFF1F6.5060100@neurotica.com>

On 06/06/2012 08:03 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> There are a couple of people - just a handful - who are close enough,
> or that I have known for long enough, that I will go out of my way to
> ask them. The rest, the other few dozen, who I'd be happy to go for a
> drink with but who want me to use 19th century communications to ask
> them as we head into the middle of the 2nd decade of the 21st, because
> they can't be bothered to learn - nah, sod 'em. Adapt and survive;
> fail to adapt, die.

  And those of us who aren't Facebook addicts are clearly on the edge of
death! ;)

>> And I suppose even semi-professional writers ignoring rules of grammar is
>> just another one of those modern "efficiencies"...
> 
> Hey, anyone can miss a letter! Jeez...

  I can see how it might be reasonable to hold someone in your line of
work to a slightly higher standard..

>> Signs of the times...
> 
> I am rather offended, TBH.

  Frequently! ;)   (*poke*...about as often as me!)

          -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Jun  6 19:22:23 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 20:22:23 -0400
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGz6cYDy1JF71mdGA8vmRr+KawLZrgHpqgM8-neVvn9wQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
 <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>
 <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCGz6cYDy1JF71mdGA8vmRr+KawLZrgHpqgM8-neVvn9wQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FCFF43F.4010906@neurotica.com>

On 06/06/2012 08:11 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>  Our opinions on social media are very much the same, though.  I have a
>> Facebook account, but mainly to find and keep in touch with people who
>> haven't figured out "real email" yet; mainly old childhood friends.
>> Overall, my position is that I'm a busy guy, and I will NEVER have
>> enough free time for Facebook.  It's little other than a huge time sink
>> for people who don't have anything better to do. :-(
> 
> You know, it is not mandatory, or even useful or helpful, to play with
> it to use it.

  I agree 100%.

> I don't put many pictures on it. I seldom update my status - that's
> what Twitter is for, so I feed it through. I prefer email for
> contacting people. I don't play any games on it at all and rarely
> browse it - maybe on 5-10 min session a week, if that.
> 
> You don't need any of that.

  I'm on Facebook for 5-10mins every two weeks or so.

> But it is becoming the Internet's telephone directory. It is a simple
> easy way to find people and build a big address book, to contact them
> if needed, and to use as a birthdays-reminder system and so on.
> Calling someone for the first time in ages? Quickly look at their page
> and see what has happened in their life recently.

  Yes, I agree...but..

> Its events system is also usable and can be syndicated out via
> standard protocols - I sync mine into my Google Calendar, which is
> synched into my phone automatically. Much easier than setting up and
> running my own Exchange Server, which I am perfectly capable of doing
> but see no reason to.
> 
> You don't have to live on the damned thing to make use of it.

  ...this is where I have a problem.  Nearly everyone I know uses
Facebook.  Of them, I can count maybe two or three who DON'T "live on
the damned thing".  It's built to become addictive to people who don't
have anything better to do, and let's face it...most people (excluding
people like us) DON'T have anything better to do.

  Using it periodically for the reasons you state isn't the problem.
People living and breathing the stupid thing is where it becomes a
problem.  Marriages are ending, jobs are being lost, etc etc all because
people just can't wait to rush to the nearest computer and "check in
real quick" on Facebook...where they sit for the rest of the night.

  That's the part I have a problem with.  Not the usage pattern you
describe.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 19:52:01 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 01:52:01 +0100
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <4FCFF43F.4010906@neurotica.com>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
 <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>
 <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCGz6cYDy1JF71mdGA8vmRr+KawLZrgHpqgM8-neVvn9wQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FCFF43F.4010906@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGCuakRvkRSjtQQW95pktmUzYVXM9cp0VV4jRO_Oymjpg@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 June 2012 01:22, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
>
> ?...this is where I have a problem. ?Nearly everyone I know uses
> Facebook. ?Of them, I can count maybe two or three who DON'T "live on
> the damned thing". ?It's built to become addictive to people who don't
> have anything better to do, and let's face it...most people (excluding
> people like us) DON'T have anything better to do.
>
> ?Using it periodically for the reasons you state isn't the problem.
> People living and breathing the stupid thing is where it becomes a
> problem. ?Marriages are ending, jobs are being lost, etc etc all because
> people just can't wait to rush to the nearest computer and "check in
> real quick" on Facebook...where they sit for the rest of the night.
>
> ?That's the part I have a problem with. ?Not the usage pattern you
> describe.

Ah, well, in that case, I entirely agree.

And with your previous one about frequently getting offended. ;?)

I can lose hours to Twitter, though - but I have a fairly
carefully-selected list of people that I follow, ones who post
interesting links to interesting stuff, don't use it as a medium to
natter and don't post about what they had for lunch or what their cat
is up to.

But the good thing about Twitter is that it works well without much
engagement. I can give it 2min a day or 2 hours, or none at all, and
it's fine. You don't "miss out" and rarely will anyone criticise you
for "not taking part" or anything.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 20:18:34 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 21:18:34 -0400
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com>
References: <20120606092535.GD87653@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
 <201206061315.q56DFNbV13303974@floodgap.com>
 <20120606145049.GA49290@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <05685FE0-DB2D-44E3-B145-32B6EB1DBFBE@gmail.com>

On Jun 6, 2012, at 7:59 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 06/06/2012 10:50 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>> Hmm, it seems, that I don't even need something like IRC..
>> I do have a phone flaterate, it is much less hassle to call the person on
>> the phone...
> 
>  Holm, my friend, this is one area in which you and I must disagree.  I
> hate phone calls.  So disruptive.

I can't stand them myself.

>  Our opinions on social media are very much the same, though.  I have a
> Facebook account, but mainly to find and keep in touch with people who
> haven't figured out "real email" yet; mainly old childhood friends.
> Overall, my position is that I'm a busy guy, and I will NEVER have
> enough free time for Facebook.  It's little other than a huge time sink
> for people who don't have anything better to do. :-(

There are other legitimate uses.  For example, it's by far the easiest
way I have of sharing pictures of our 9-month-old daughter with family
and friends, and that's something I find valuable.  It's also a very
handy way of organizing social events between myself and my friends,
but I'm willing to concede that point as a generational thing; I am,
after all, roughly a generation younger than most people involved in
this conversation.  Facebook came out right in the middle of my
college years, so it became the de facto method of communication
between those of us who wanted to stay in touch.

But yeah, it can be a huge time sink if I'm not careful, especially
because I have the attention span of a goldfish.  There's a useful
utility for OS X (with spinoffs for several other OSes) which lets
you block certain sites which may prove to be a distraction for a
certain amount of time, with no option to turn it off, called "Self
Control".  It just manipulates the firewall to redirect said sites to
localhost, so if you're clever, you can work around it, but it does
break the instinctual "gotta check Facebook every five minutes" habit
quite well.  It's a case of locks keeping honest men honest. :-)


- Dave





From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  6 21:42:27 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 19:42:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: which word procs used 2.5s David was Re: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy
 drives
Message-ID: <1339036947.89547.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


name them please. We need a thorough discussion of w/p's anyway. The Canon VP-3000 is 8088 based in the event you werent aware. Used 5 1/4s though.
------------------------------
 On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 4:10 PM PDT David Griffith wrote:
 
 >On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote:
 >
 >> On 6 Jun 2012 at 6:48, Chris Tofu wrote:
 >>> I have 2 count them 2 Zenith minisports with 2.5 inch drives. Now
 >>> thats unusual. No disks though. ------------------------------
 >> On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
 >> Yup, I've seen them. AFAIK, the Minisport was the only widely-
 >> available system to use them, unless there was an early digicam. No
 >> radical advance in technology, just a different physical size.
 >> 
 >> Wasn't there a camera (Canon?) that used them? Or was that a DIFFERENT
 >> 2.5"? - there were several competing 2.5" (and a 2.9" spiral) technologies
 >> being shown around that time.
 >
 >The Canon Xapshot took a VFD or Video Floppy Disk. The disk measured roughly 2.5" and stored analogue still images. This was fairly rare, but was much more common than the LT1 disk that the Zenith Minisport took. There was another 2.5"-ish disk called the QuickDisk which had a single track in a spiral. This was most commonly found in word processors, musical equipment, and the Japanese version of the NES.
 >
 >
 >-- David Griffith
 >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
 >
 >A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
 >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
 >A: Top-posting.
 >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun  6 22:43:47 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 20:43:47 -0700
Subject: which word procs used 2.5s David was Re: DD versus HD 5.25"
 floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <1339036947.89547.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339036947.89547.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FCFC103.754.2A78B51@cclist.sydex.com>

You can't even begin to have a complete discussion of wapros.  They 
were as common as cockroaches and folks don't collect them.  Even 
Brian Kunde's list doesn't come close.  

And then there's the question of what counts as a aapro?  Is the IBM 
MT/ST one?  How about the IBM mag card typewriters?

The first I saw was made by Artec--it used a Diablo 630-type terminal 
with a custom one -line LED (LCD?)  mounted on the Hitype.  It used a 
floor-mounted box with 2 8" floppy drives.

CPT had one out at about the same time that used a page-mode sort of 
terminal display. 

I think the AES wapro predates microprocessors.

Even Exxon got into the wapro ractket by purchasing Vydec--they lost 
a pile of money on that venture.

--Chuck


On 6 Jun 2012 at 19:42, Chris Tofu wrote:

> 
> name them please. We need a thorough discussion of w/p's anyway. The
> Canon VP-3000 is 8088 based in the event you werent aware. Used 5 1/4s
> though. ------------------------------
>  On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 4:10 PM PDT David Griffith wrote:
> 
>  >On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote:
>  >
>  >> On 6 Jun 2012 at 6:48, Chris Tofu wrote:
>  >>> I have 2 count them 2 Zenith minisports with 2.5 inch drives. Now
>  >>> thats unusual. No disks though. ------------------------------ >>
>  On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Yup, I've seen them. AFAIK,
>  the Minisport was the only widely- >> available system to use them,
>  unless there was an early digicam. No >> radical advance in
>  technology, just a different physical size. >> >> Wasn't there a
>  camera (Canon?) that used them? Or was that a DIFFERENT >> 2.5"? -
>  there were several competing 2.5" (and a 2.9" spiral) technologies >>
>  being shown around that time. > >The Canon Xapshot took a VFD or
>  Video Floppy Disk. The disk measured roughly 2.5" and stored analogue
>  still images. This was fairly rare, but was much more common than the
>  LT1 disk that the Zenith Minisport took. There was another 2.5"-ish
>  disk called the QuickDisk which had a single track in a spiral. This
>  was most commonly found in word processors, musical equipment, and
>  the Japanese version of the NES. > > >-- David Griffith
>  >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > >A: Because it fouls the order in which
>  people normally read text. >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
>  >A: Top-posting. >Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
> 




From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com  Wed Jun  6 16:56:20 2012
From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 17:56:20 -0400
Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury
Message-ID: <CAMvyYF-f0a_t24js6WKxVQfqWuRwsoUVnoOtsXH_eWd=qF9ULQ@mail.gmail.com>

It was with great sadness I felt on hearing the news of the death of
Ray Bradbury. His science fiction literature, that of computer in
nature, gave me my earliest knowledge concerning computers and the
potential they had. He will truly be missed.

Murray---


From rickb at bensene.com  Thu Jun  7 11:28:12 2012
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 09:28:12 -0700
Subject: Tek Magnolia (Was: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles)
Message-ID: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D430A@mail.bensene.com>

> > ranging from the amazing Magnolia Smalltalk Workstation from
1976-ish,
> 
> Really? That date is extremely hard to believe.
> 
> Adele Goldberg wrote in "The Smalltalk-80 System Release Process" (in
> _Smalltalk-80: Bits of History, Words of Advice_, June 1983) that the
first
> release of Smalltalk to licensees (Apple, DEC, HP, and Tektronix) did
not occur
> until February 17, 1981, with updated releases on July 24,
> 1981 and November 18, 1981.  "Implementing the Smalltalk-80 System:
The
> Tektronix Experience" by Paul L. McCullough, copyright 1982 and
printed in
> the same book, describes the initial bringup at Tektronix.  It doesn't
give a
> date for the start of the effort, but after describing the initial
bringup, states
> "About this time, we received the second virtual image from Xerox Palo
Alto
> Research Center (PARC)."  This suggests that they received the first
and
> second images at times consistent with the release dates in the
Goldberg
> paper.
> 
> Didn't Magnolia use the Motorola MC68000 microprocessor?  Motorola
didn't
> announce that until September 1979, and while it's certainly possible
that
> Motorola provided Tektronix with preliminary data on it prior to that,
> Motorola didn't have working silicon until late 1979.
> 
> Allen Wirfs-Brock's resume describes how he was involved in the
Tektronix
> review of the draft Smalltalk-80 books in 1980-1981, and that review
occurred
> before Xerox released the image.

I think that my memory has failed me.  I think it was more like sometime
in the early 1980's, now that I think more about it.  Magnolia used a
68000 CPU (two of them, I think...because I believe it supported demand
paging, which the 68000 didn't support directly), which didn't exist in
'76.  Smalltalk existed, but the Smalltalk-76 release would have been a
major pain to port to the 68000.  Also, the machine used a Micropolis 8"
hard disk (1200-series)  that didn't come around until sometime in
mid-'78 or so.  So, though my memory tells me that I saw this machine
running in a lab before I went to work at Tektronix in June of '77, my
mind has to be suffering from wetware bitrot - something I'm becoming
more and more familiar with as the years go by :-(

In any case, the sad part is that it appears at least from a historical
standpoint that a lot of information about Magnolia (along with other
Tektronix forays into computer systems) are being lost to time.

Rick Bensene





From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Jun  7 11:34:41 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 10:34:41 -0600
Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF-f0a_t24js6WKxVQfqWuRwsoUVnoOtsXH_eWd=qF9ULQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF-f0a_t24js6WKxVQfqWuRwsoUVnoOtsXH_eWd=qF9ULQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1ScffV-0002Bd-1E@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CAMvyYF-f0a_t24js6WKxVQfqWuRwsoUVnoOtsXH_eWd=qF9ULQ at mail.gmail.com>,
    Murray McCullough <c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> writes:

> It was with great sadness I felt on hearing the news of the death of
> Ray Bradbury. [...]

Apparently he was quite the luddite, eschewing computers, email and
the internet for a long, long time.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Jun  7 11:43:24 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 10:43:24 -0600
Subject: Tek Magnolia (Was: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles)
In-Reply-To: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D430A@mail.bensene.com>
References: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D430A@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <E1Scfnw-0002vd-4l@shell.xmission.com>


In article <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D430A at mail.bensene.com>,
    "Rick Bensene" <rickb at bensene.com> writes:

> In any case, the sad part is that it appears at least from a historical
> standpoint that a lot of information about Magnolia (along with other
> Tektronix forays into computer systems) are being lost to time.

I've been keeping an eye out for those Tektronix Smalltalk workstations
and in all the time (10+ years, I think at this point) I've been
looking, I haven't seen a single one come up in any of the usual
channels.

I get the impression that they just weren't sold in any significant
quantity.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Jun  7 11:54:04 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 09:54:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury
In-Reply-To: <E1ScffV-0002Bd-1E@shell.xmission.com>
References: <CAMvyYF-f0a_t24js6WKxVQfqWuRwsoUVnoOtsXH_eWd=qF9ULQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1ScffV-0002Bd-1E@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <20120607095310.Y12911@shell.lmi.net>

> > It was with great sadness I felt on hearing the news of the death of
> > Ray Bradbury. [...]
On Thu, 7 Jun 2012, Richard wrote:
> Apparently he was quite the luddite, eschewing computers, email and
> the internet for a long, long time.

What do his Twitter and Facebook pages say?




From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun  7 12:24:06 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 10:24:06 -0700
Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury
In-Reply-To: <E1ScffV-0002Bd-1E@shell.xmission.com>
References: <CAMvyYF-f0a_t24js6WKxVQfqWuRwsoUVnoOtsXH_eWd=qF9ULQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <E1ScffV-0002Bd-1E@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com>

Did Bradbury ever refer to himself as a "science fiction writer"?  
Although he wrote stories set in futuristic (or alternate reality) 
places, I was under the impression that such stuff was mostly the 
backdrop for his storytelling. 

One of his short stories that's a favorite of mine isn't SF (and 
perhaps not fiction at all) --"The First Night of Lent".

--Chuck





From dm561 at torfree.net  Thu Jun  7 12:53:38 2012
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 13:53:38 -0400
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
References: <mailman.1.1339088400.7949.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <8D35D5F28A7143C7BAFD356F889EB3DE@vl420mt>

Original Message:
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 01:03:20 +0100
From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>

> I am rather offended, TBH.

By what?

My comment on your definition of and attitude towards your 'friends', i.e. 
if they won't do it your way "then sod 'em"?

Or my comment that a professional writer should know the difference between
who and whom?

No offence intended, just commenting on examples of two all-too-prevalent
current trends; just add winking smilies...



From curt at atarimuseum.com  Thu Jun  7 13:19:42 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 14:19:42 -0400
Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury
In-Reply-To: <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF-f0a_t24js6WKxVQfqWuRwsoUVnoOtsXH_eWd=qF9ULQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <E1ScffV-0002Bd-1E@shell.xmission.com>
 <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com>

Bradbury was more of a Futurist imho.     He truly saw what things would 
be like and put them into realworld context and perspective.






Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Did Bradbury ever refer to himself as a "science fiction writer"?  
> Although he wrote stories set in futuristic (or alternate reality) 
> places, I was under the impression that such stuff was mostly the 
> backdrop for his storytelling. 
>
> One of his short stories that's a favorite of mine isn't SF (and 
> perhaps not fiction at all) --"The First Night of Lent".
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>   


From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Jun  7 13:29:39 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 12:29:39 -0600
Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury
In-Reply-To: <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com>
References: <CAMvyYF-f0a_t24js6WKxVQfqWuRwsoUVnoOtsXH_eWd=qF9ULQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <E1ScffV-0002Bd-1E@shell.xmission.com>
 <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com> <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com>
Message-ID: <E1SchSl-0002gX-G2@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FD0F0BE.80303 at atarimuseum.com>,
    "Curt @ Atari Museum" <curt at atarimuseum.com> writes:

> Bradbury was more of a Futurist imho.

....not really sure how you can simultaneously be a futurist and a luddite.

Bradbury wouldn't even let electronic editions of his books be
published until the past couple of years or so, according to reports.

Every futurist I know (and I know plenty from scifi/nanotech circles)
is a relatively quick, if not early, adopter of new technologies.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  7 13:40:47 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 11:40:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury
Message-ID: <1339094447.82307.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


>From the earliest writers, Verne, A.C. Doyle, etc. sf was all about futurism. They attempted to predict what the future would be like. Primarily. Some stories were set in the present. The combination became the genre as we know it today. Keep in mind a fair amount of scifi became scifact.
------------------------------
 On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 11:19 AM PDT Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
 
 >Bradbury was more of a Futurist imho. He truly saw what things would be like and put them into realworld context and perspective.
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >Chuck Guzis wrote:
 >> Did Bradbury ever refer to himself as a "science fiction writer"? Although he wrote stories set in futuristic (or alternate reality) places, I was under the impression that such stuff was mostly the backdrop for his storytelling. 
 >> One of his short stories that's a favorite of mine isn't SF (and perhaps not fiction at all) --"The First Night of Lent".
 >> 
 >> --Chuck
 >> 
 >> 
 >> 
 >>


From useddec at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 14:11:52 2012
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 14:11:52 -0500
Subject: VT14, other PDP14 options available
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOwYt3ft7szUda+PM=YWtMU+HuT+CqdxXca5QO5a1YK=g@mail.gmail.com>

I have a complete VT14 (except for possibly the cover screws) 14/30,
14/35, and a lot of options available for serious inquires. It was
going to be a project down the road, but I need to shorten my list due
to health issues,

Does any else out there have one, or even know of one?

Please feel free to contact me off list.

Thanks, Paul


From ploopster at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 14:14:14 2012
From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 15:14:14 -0400
Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury
In-Reply-To: <E1SchSl-0002gX-G2@shell.xmission.com>
References: <CAMvyYF-f0a_t24js6WKxVQfqWuRwsoUVnoOtsXH_eWd=qF9ULQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <E1ScffV-0002Bd-1E@shell.xmission.com>
 <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com> <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com>
 <E1SchSl-0002gX-G2@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4FD0FD86.7000202@gmail.com>

Richard wrote:
>> Bradbury was more of a Futurist imho.
>
> ....not really sure how you can simultaneously be a futurist and a luddite.

It's actually very easy.  You just need two things.  You should be able 
to predict where society is going, and you need to not *like* where 
society is going.

Peace...  Sridhar


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun  7 13:46:27 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 19:46:27 +0100 (BST)
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <20120606195932.GA76506@beast.freibergnet.de> from "Holm Tiffe"
 at Jun 6, 12 09:59:32 pm
Message-ID: <m1Schj7-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> 
> Liam Proven wrote:
> 
> > On 6 June 2012 18:41, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> > > Hehe, it seems you have problems I don't have and that I don't want.
> >=20
> > What problems?
> 
> You want to contact hundreds of people, this is a technical problem, that=
>  I
> simply not have.
> >=20
> > > If you need to invite hundrets of people to eveents, please do that l=
> ike
> > > you want, I just don't need to do that.
> >=20
> > Well, if you don't have many friends or never throw big parties, I am
> > a little sorry for you. Personally, I am gregarious and have lots of
> > friends. :=AC)
> 
> I prefer to have really a smaller amount of "real" friends.

As do I.

I don;t know how long said parties last, but let's be generous and say 6 
hours. That's 360 minutes. If you invited 360 people (that's 'hundreds') 
you;d only soend, on avverage, 1 minute with each of them. That doesn't 
sound very friendly to me.

Persoanlly I'd rather attend smaller gatherings where I get to spend 
enoguh time with those present to have a reasonable discussion about 
somehting of mutual interest.  Even then I often feel I've not spent long 
enough with each person.

[Socnets]

> > Not at all. It's a tool, nothing more. If you don't want to use it,
> > fine, but it makes you look foolish if you criticise others for no
> > other reason than that they do use it, or because you don't know how
> > to.
> 
> Maybe that's the language difference (We could always try to write in
> german, I never had english in a school), I don't want/wanted  to critici=
> se
> you or others for using Socnets, this was never my intention.
> 
> I'm not using them and I never missed something like that.
> That is just my point of view, but no criticism.

I agree with you. I woudl agree that sconets are a tool, and like all 
tools they're only useful if you can use them to solve a problem (or 
perform some task). If you don't have that problem, you don't use them. I 
don't have problems that are solved by Facebook, so I don't have a 
Facebook account. 

Liam, I wouldn't be suprised if you didn't recognist some of the
(physical) tools in my toolkit. That's fine, you have no use for a
dividing head, a mainspring winder, a wire-wrap tool, a valve tester, a
spinrg tension gauge or anything like that. That's fine, you do differnt
things to me. But equally, i don't have to want to use the tools (in the
general sense) that you do. 

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun  7 13:55:01 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 19:55:01 +0100 (BST)
Subject: DD versus HD 5.25" floppy drives
In-Reply-To: <4FCF61FE.27341.1345F9A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 6, 12 01:58:22 pm
Message-ID: <m1SchrO-000J4eC@p850ug1>

> Not as silly as it sounds.  My newest jacket (the type with a zipper 
> on it that you wear to keep warm and dry) has a cellphone/iPod pocket 
> on the sleeve.    3.5" floppies fit it nicely.

My raincoat has a pocket that the ideal size for 3.5" disks, another one 
for 5.25" disks and a pair for 8" disks ;-) Alas no pocket large enough 
for RK05 packs.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun  7 13:58:01 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 19:58:01 +0100 (BST)
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 6,
 12 07:59:30 pm
Message-ID: <m1SchuJ-000J4fC@p850ug1>

>   Holm, my friend, this is one area in which you and I must disagree.  I
> hate phone calls.  So disruptive.

Am I the only person here who sometimes totally ignores a ringing 
telephone if I am doing somethign that I don't want to interrupt?

I refuse to handle technical questions by telephone. I want to be able to 
take the time to get out the manuals, look things up, etc. That means e-mail.

-tony



From pontus at update.uu.se  Thu Jun  7 15:07:00 2012
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 22:07:00 +0200
Subject: VT14, other PDP14 options available
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuOwYt3ft7szUda+PM=YWtMU+HuT+CqdxXca5QO5a1YK=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOwYt3ft7szUda+PM=YWtMU+HuT+CqdxXca5QO5a1YK=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD109E4.1020407@update.uu.se>

On 06/07/2012 09:11 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
> I have a complete VT14 (except for possibly the cover screws) 14/30,
> 14/35, and a lot of options available for serious inquires. It was
> going to be a project down the road, but I need to shorten my list due
> to health issues,
>
> Does any else out there have one, or even know of one?
>
> Please feel free to contact me off list.
>
> Thanks, Paul

I would very much like to see some pictures. Never seen one.

/P


From curt at atarimuseum.com  Thu Jun  7 15:07:57 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 16:07:57 -0400
Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury
In-Reply-To: <4FD0FD86.7000202@gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF-f0a_t24js6WKxVQfqWuRwsoUVnoOtsXH_eWd=qF9ULQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <E1ScffV-0002Bd-1E@shell.xmission.com>
 <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com> <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com>
 <E1SchSl-0002gX-G2@shell.xmission.com> <4FD0FD86.7000202@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD10A1D.8080609@atarimuseum.com>

{two thumbs up} on comment :-)


Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
> Richard wrote:
>>> Bradbury was more of a Futurist imho.
>>
>> ....not really sure how you can simultaneously be a futurist and a 
>> luddite.
>
> It's actually very easy.  You just need two things.  You should be 
> able to predict where society is going, and you need to not *like* 
> where society is going.
>
> Peace...  Sridhar
>


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun  7 15:11:27 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 13:11:27 -0700
Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury
In-Reply-To: <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com>
References: <CAMvyYF-f0a_t24js6WKxVQfqWuRwsoUVnoOtsXH_eWd=qF9ULQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com>
Message-ID: <4FD0A87F.7136.10AE11B@cclist.sydex.com>

On 7 Jun 2012 at 14:19, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:

> Bradbury was more of a Futurist imho.     He truly saw what things
> would be like and put them into realworld context and perspective.

Sort of--but a fair number of his stories weren't set in the future 
at all.  

For me, the attraction of Bradbury is his way with words--almost 
poetic in the way he crafted them.  That's probably one of the 
reasons that his stories set for film didn't particularly work all 
that well.

For someone who used a typewriter for his writing, didn't drive and 
refused to fly, he wasn't much of a futurist in real life.  I don't 
imagine that he ever owned a mobile phone, either.

--Chuck



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  7 16:31:47 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 14:31:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: anyone need an oscillscope?
Message-ID: <1339104707.27925.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


Tektronix 5440 + 2 additional plugins. 60mhz I think. Analog. More info upon request. No probe. 50$. NJ 07731. I use USPS. God bless the US postal service!


From curt at atarimuseum.com  Thu Jun  7 16:36:13 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 17:36:13 -0400
Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury
In-Reply-To: <4FD0A87F.7136.10AE11B@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF-f0a_t24js6WKxVQfqWuRwsoUVnoOtsXH_eWd=qF9ULQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com> <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com>
 <4FD0A87F.7136.10AE11B@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <05D361C7-4476-4FD0-AA96-1D3AF7662B2C@atarimuseum.com>

HG Wells didn't own any of that stuff either, yet his stories were quite prophetic



Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 7, 2012, at 4:11 PM, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 7 Jun 2012 at 14:19, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
> 
>> Bradbury was more of a Futurist imho.     He truly saw what things
>> would be like and put them into realworld context and perspective.
> 
> Sort of--but a fair number of his stories weren't set in the future 
> at all.  
> 
> For me, the attraction of Bradbury is his way with words--almost 
> poetic in the way he crafted them.  That's probably one of the 
> reasons that his stories set for film didn't particularly work all 
> that well.
> 
> For someone who used a typewriter for his writing, didn't drive and 
> refused to fly, he wasn't much of a futurist in real life.  I don't 
> imagine that he ever owned a mobile phone, either.
> 
> --Chuck



From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu Jun  7 17:01:07 2012
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 10:01:07 +1200
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <m1SchuJ-000J4fC@p850ug1>
References: <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com>
	<m1SchuJ-000J4fC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CACaZngnQPdgrUVJ29FQxaw7fwJm+8KuGz6-JbQwhbFVk0rpZfQ@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know if anyone on this list watches Futurama but there was an
amusing episode poking fun at the iphone and social media.  It covered
themes such as brand brain-washing, twitter and "followers" as a measure of
popularity, and the very transient nature of internet popularity itself.

Here is a short clip from it.  It's worth watching the whole episode if it
ever comes your way.

http://youtu.be/EaHUpWuqNHY

One of the most amusing scenes for me was on people trudging "zombie like"
in a long queue towards the shop selling these "eyephones".  It may have
been deliberate or just coincidental, but it conjured up the image of the
IBM zombies trudging to their benches in the famous IBM vrs Mac ad of
1984.  Oh, the irony! (-:

Terry (Tez)


On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 6:58 AM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> >   Holm, my friend, this is one area in which you and I must disagree.  I
> > hate phone calls.  So disruptive.
>
> Am I the only person here who sometimes totally ignores a ringing
> telephone if I am doing somethign that I don't want to interrupt?
>
> I refuse to handle technical questions by telephone. I want to be able to
> take the time to get out the manuals, look things up, etc. That means
> e-mail.
>
> -tony
>
>


From andrew at futurestack.com  Thu Jun  7 17:19:38 2012
From: andrew at futurestack.com (futurestack)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 18:19:38 -0400
Subject: anyone need an oscillscope?
In-Reply-To: <1339104707.27925.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339104707.27925.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2936D766-1C99-4AB6-842D-61AF13D73467@futurestack.com>

I'll take it...  I'm in Brooklyn.  How do you want to set up payment?

Regards,
Andrew

futurestack | technocrat
andrew (@) futurestack (dot) com
9176478173


On Jun 7, 2012, at 5:31 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:

> 
> Tektronix 5440 + 2 additional plugins. 60mhz I think. Analog. More info upon request. No probe. 50$. NJ 07731. I use USPS. God bless the US postal service!



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Jun  7 17:49:03 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 18:49:03 -0400
Subject: anyone need an oscillscope?
In-Reply-To: <1339104707.27925.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339104707.27925.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD12FDF.2080402@neurotica.com>

On 06/07/2012 05:31 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> Tektronix 5440 + 2 additional plugins. 60mhz I think. Analog. More
> info upon request. No probe. 50$. NJ 07731. I use USPS.

  A nice, solid, flexible scope.  I see you already have a taker.

> God bless the US postal service!

  Oh good heavens WHY?  They're only still in business due to gov't
subsidy.  There's got to be a story behind this comment. ;)

          -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Jun  7 17:54:06 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2012 18:54:06 -0400
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <m1Schj7-000J4YC@p850ug1>
References: <m1Schj7-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FD1310E.1060603@neurotica.com>

On 06/07/2012 02:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>> I prefer to have really a smaller amount of "real" friends.
> 
> As do I.
> 
> I don;t know how long said parties last, but let's be generous and say 6 
> hours. That's 360 minutes. If you invited 360 people (that's 'hundreds') 
> you;d only soend, on avverage, 1 minute with each of them. That doesn't 
> sound very friendly to me.
> 
> Persoanlly I'd rather attend smaller gatherings where I get to spend 
> enoguh time with those present to have a reasonable discussion about 
> somehting of mutual interest.  Even then I often feel I've not spent long 
> enough with each person.

  This is great...a nerdly analysis of party socialization statistics!
Now I've seen it all. :)

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Jun  7 18:39:09 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 16:39:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngnQPdgrUVJ29FQxaw7fwJm+8KuGz6-JbQwhbFVk0rpZfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FCFEEE2.70408@neurotica.com> <m1SchuJ-000J4fC@p850ug1>
 <CACaZngnQPdgrUVJ29FQxaw7fwJm+8KuGz6-JbQwhbFVk0rpZfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120607163816.V26272@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 8 Jun 2012, Terry Stewart wrote:
> been deliberate or just coincidental, but it conjured up the image of the
> IBM zombies trudging to their benches in the famous IBM vrs Mac ad of
> 1984.  Oh, the irony! (-:

In a different episode, Futurama explicitly addressed that ad - "HEY, We
were watching that!"


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  7 19:02:59 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 17:02:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: anyone need an oscillscope?
Message-ID: <1339113779.68583.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


uh I might be having issues with it. I may have more opportunity to investigate over the weekend. Maybe Im doing something wrong. The voltage display in the upper left corner disappeared, as did the trace. Sorry. Stay tuned


From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Jun  7 20:04:39 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 02:04:39 +0100
Subject: social media was Re: OS9 (for 6809) communication
In-Reply-To: <m1Schj7-000J4YC@p850ug1>
References: <20120606195932.GA76506@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <m1Schj7-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEDTNWqAmbtvB+c5wexh8UV5-+BNhvxJmqd_O9+Cd7kzg@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 June 2012 19:46, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I don;t know how long said parties last, but let's be generous and say 6
> hours. That's 360 minutes. If you invited 360 people (that's 'hundreds')
> you;d only soend, on avverage, 1 minute with each of them. That doesn't
> sound very friendly to me.

No no - it doesn't work like that.

Many people are on FB but seldom check it. Some don't know how to do
more than post on the wall. Many will not accept the invitation; many
will not notice it. If I issue, say, 200 invitations, maybe,
optimistically, a third will accept. Of those, perhaps 75% - again,
very optimistically - will mean it. Of which maybe a half will come.

Inviting 200-odd people means one actually gets 30 or 40. That's a
good big lively group, but not vast. If 3 or 4 people group around a
table each, say, that's only a dozen or so tables, meaning 20-30 min
per table over a night - long enough for a decent natter and a drink.

I've only organised such big "dos" a few times but it seemed to work.

A party if they all turned up would indeed be very unmanageable, yes!

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From evan at snarc.net  Thu Jun  7 23:10:33 2012
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 00:10:33 -0400
Subject: Felsenstein lecture in NJ - July 1
Message-ID: <4FD17B39.6040108@snarc.net>

Everyone,

Lee Felsenstein is giving a talk, signing autographs, etc. at the 
InfoAge Science Center (2201 Marconi Rd., Wall, NJ, 07719) on Sunday, 
July 1. at approx. 10:30am.

Unfortunately he couldn't be here for VCF East 8.0 last month. But this 
is the next best thing!

Lee is very friendly and looks forward to meeting many of his fans.

I assume all cctalk'ers know who Lee is ... but just in case .... Lee is 
famous for his work at the Homebrew Computer Club, Community Memory, 
Processor Technology, and of course Osborne. He was even part of 
Berkeley's Free Speech Movement.

There's a $10 "strongly suggested" donation per person for our museum.


From innfoclassics at gmail.com  Fri Jun  8 00:28:25 2012
From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 22:28:25 -0700
Subject: Tek Magnolia (Was: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles)
In-Reply-To: <E1Scfnw-0002vd-4l@shell.xmission.com>
References: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D430A@mail.bensene.com>
 <E1Scfnw-0002vd-4l@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CAL2B=mFGaROSbtCPQJ4XeRKTgSiSaY+mA9ss9Enhd41Kr+6WhQ@mail.gmail.com>

> ? ?"Rick Bensene" <rickb at bensene.com> writes:
>
>> In any case, the sad part is that it appears at least from a historical
>> standpoint that a lot of information about Magnolia (along with other
>> Tektronix forays into computer systems) are being lost to time.
>

I had a Magnolia go through my hands in the early 1990s but it was
missing its skins so it went to scrap. In that lot from Intel we got
an Alto, a Magnolia and several, about 8 original Xerox Stars (Xerox
8010s). Unfortunately I didn't know what the Magnolia and the Alto
were at the time so I didn't save them, one of the great regrets of my
life. I did get to play with the 8010s...lovely machines.

Later, I did get a set of 4404s and a set of the original Tektronix
software for them. I am planning on passing the SW onto another
collector, Jerry,  for imaging as he has a 4404. I have a 4404 and a
4406 to go with the disks....and a bunch of the drive units. I also
have a Xerox 1108 AI workstation in storage that I got as part of the
collection.

Paxton


-- 
Paxton Hoag
Astoria, OR
USA



From lafleur at lafleur.us  Thu Jun  7 16:17:56 2012
From: lafleur at lafleur.us (Tom Lafleur)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 14:17:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: S-100 board PCBs remaining
In-Reply-To: <001f01cd36b2$0cbacde0$263069a0$@YAHOO.COM>
References: <001f01cd36b2$0cbacde0$263069a0$@YAHOO.COM>
Message-ID: <ee5d2377-9881-400d-b329-df329f4107e4@googlegroups.com>

Please put me down for one each:

S-100 4MB SRAM board
S-100 backplane PCBs
S-100 Console IO Board

thanks...

tom lafleur


From ve3auw at mnsi.net  Thu Jun  7 21:58:20 2012
From: ve3auw at mnsi.net (Armin Auerswald)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 22:58:20 -0400
Subject: Byte Magazines For Sale
References: <201206061702.q56H2nTR062618@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <7A2181207C6848AD8A880EFE72BCD419@your8e1f7ff0d0>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "B Degnan" <billdeg at degnanco.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 13:02
Subject: Byte Magazines For Sale


>I set up a page to sell of spare Byte magazine copies.  The page has 
> directions, will ship worldwide.
> http://www.degnanco.net/contact_byte.cfm
> Bill
> vintagecomputer.net
    -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
In my garage sit about 2'3" of BYTE from around 1983
    and 2'6" of ELECTRONICS from 1963 - 67, waiting
    for conversion into BTU and ASH, next winter.

Anyone paying postage from SW Ontario, Canada (near
    Detroit,MI) is welcome to them and I'll pack them
    for free, too.

Armin, ve3auw.



From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Jun  8 05:02:22 2012
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 12:02:22 +0200
Subject: defective DEC RZ58-E
Message-ID: <20120608100222.GB43258@beast.freibergnet.de>

I have here an 1,3Gbyte DEC Drive, 5,35 Inch full heigth. (Seems to have
the old CDC WREN Mechanics)
It looks, that the drive electronics are toast. It don't spin up
the BLDC motor and it blocks the SCSI Bus where the drive is connected.

Maybe there is someone out here that has a Drive with an Head Crash and
want to sell me the electronics?

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Fri Jun  8 05:12:13 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 12:12:13 +0200
Subject: defective DEC RZ58-E
In-Reply-To: <20120608100222.GB43258@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20120608100222.GB43258@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5Q=8UJa=sSs1oP-76g+UAsautGqgC9J+OCimAdyvZ6Ciw@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/8/12, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> I have here an 1,3Gbyte DEC Drive, 5,35 Inch full heigth. (Seems to have
> the old CDC WREN Mechanics)
> It looks, that the drive electronics are toast. It don't spin up
> the BLDC motor and it blocks the SCSI Bus where the drive is connected.
>
> Maybe there is someone out here that has a Drive with an Head Crash and
> want to sell me the electronics?

Let me check if I do when I get home. If I have one, you're welcome to it.


From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Jun  8 05:24:54 2012
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 12:24:54 +0200
Subject: defective DEC RZ58-E
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5Q=8UJa=sSs1oP-76g+UAsautGqgC9J+OCimAdyvZ6Ciw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120608100222.GB43258@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CA+0-H5Q=8UJa=sSs1oP-76g+UAsautGqgC9J+OCimAdyvZ6Ciw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120608102454.GD43258@beast.freibergnet.de>

Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:

> On 6/8/12, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> > I have here an 1,3Gbyte DEC Drive, 5,35 Inch full heigth. (Seems to have
> > the old CDC WREN Mechanics)
> > It looks, that the drive electronics are toast. It don't spin up
> > the BLDC motor and it blocks the SCSI Bus where the drive is connected.
> >
> > Maybe there is someone out here that has a Drive with an Head Crash and
> > want to sell me the electronics?
> 
> Let me check if I do when I get home. If I have one, you're welcome to it.

Sounds great Camiel :-)

There should be a service manual for that drives "EK-RZ58D-SV" anyone seen
that or have it?

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Fri Jun  8 05:30:32 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 06:30:32 -0400
Subject: Corroded terminal removal?
Message-ID: <ED49E5C3-EA03-4B99-BF5D-A7803560EDC2@gmail.com>

I have two Mac logic boards (an LC and a Quadra 700) which came
to me after the PRAM batteries had exploded, leaving a pretty
awful mess.  The good news is that there doesn't seem to be any
permanent trace damage, and none of the surrounding parts were
blown away except for a cheap, easily-replaced SMT diode.

However, the last bits of the terminals for the battery holders
are still in the holes.  With careful application of abrasives
and solvent, I managed to clean them to shiny metal, but they're
resisting desoldering pretty well (they seem to be mostly rust
or similar corroded detritus at this point).

Anyone have tips on removing corroded battery terminals from a
PCB?


- Dave



From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Fri Jun  8 09:01:22 2012
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 10:01:22 -0400
Subject: Byte Magazines For Sale
In-Reply-To: <7A2181207C6848AD8A880EFE72BCD419@your8e1f7ff0d0>
References: <201206061702.q56H2nTR062618@billy.ezwind.net>
 <7A2181207C6848AD8A880EFE72BCD419@your8e1f7ff0d0>
Message-ID: <20120608140122.GG7127@ns1.bonedaddy.net>

* Armin Auerswald <ve3auw at mnsi.net> [120608 02:14]:
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "B Degnan" <billdeg at degnanco.com>
> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 13:02
> Subject: Byte Magazines For Sale
> 
> 
> >I set up a page to sell of spare Byte magazine copies.  The page has 
> > directions, will ship worldwide.
> > http://www.degnanco.net/contact_byte.cfm
> > Bill
> > vintagecomputer.net
>     -    -    -    -    -    -    -    -
> In my garage sit about 2'3" of BYTE from around 1983
>     and 2'6" of ELECTRONICS from 1963 - 67, waiting
>     for conversion into BTU and ASH, next winter.
> 
> Anyone paying postage from SW Ontario, Canada (near
>     Detroit,MI) is welcome to them and I'll pack them
>     for free, too.
> 
> Armin, ve3auw.

Hi Armin,

If you don't get any other takers then I'd like them for the shipping.

Sounds like I should get a truck up to your garage and let you just toss
anything in that you don't want.  :-)

Thanks!

Todd


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  8 10:06:34 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:06:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Microsoft cordless telephone
Message-ID: <1339167994.96668.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

No I don't have one, nor ever owned one (though I was given the base and the original box by the same guy who gave me my color Canon AS-100). 


What is one worth? Since I didn't have the actual phone, I chucked it. Stupid? It has to be a rare item. 


Curt Vendel can you either call me or send me your phone number 8047327608 (swap first 2 sets of 3s). Purdy please.


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  8 10:10:19 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:10:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: early internet telephony devices
Message-ID: <1339168219.43850.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I have this little box that would let you make calls on the internet, from the mid to later 90s. I think there was a cd, but I can't locate it at the moment. It's an extremely crude device internally, there isn't even a perfboard IIRC, but rather a few discrete components soldered together w/wires. I didn't analyze it, and it's been years since I looked at it, so I'm guessing it's basically just a demodulator. 

?Is this interesting? If so please discuss.

Incidentally is this worth mondo big bucks on ePay? I see nothing like it. It's an unknown brand. But so am I. And likely you too.


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun  8 10:32:00 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 08:32:00 -0700
Subject: Corroded terminal removal?
In-Reply-To: <ED49E5C3-EA03-4B99-BF5D-A7803560EDC2@gmail.com>
References: <ED49E5C3-EA03-4B99-BF5D-A7803560EDC2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com>

On 8 Jun 2012 at 6:30, David Riley wrote:


> Anyone have tips on removing corroded battery terminals from a
> PCB?

Given that it's a battery, why not just drill them out?

--Chuck



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Fri Jun  8 10:40:12 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 11:40:12 -0400
Subject: Corroded terminal removal?
In-Reply-To: <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <ED49E5C3-EA03-4B99-BF5D-A7803560EDC2@gmail.com>
 <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5B9382FF-0FE1-471F-A92D-17A3DEC967E3@gmail.com>

On Jun 8, 2012, at 11:32 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 8 Jun 2012 at 6:30, David Riley wrote:
> 
> 
>> Anyone have tips on removing corroded battery terminals from a
>> PCB?
> 
> Given that it's a battery, why not just drill them out?

The big problem is that the ground terminal connects to an
internal plane, not a surface trace.  I'd be worried about
removing the hole plating with the drill.  I suppose, since
it's going to ground, it would be easy enough to white-wire
to another known ground point, but I'd like to avoid that
approach if possible.

Still, it should work if all else fails.


- Dave





From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  8 10:47:47 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 08:47:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: what would cause a 5 1/4" drive to choke on a standard disk?
Message-ID: <1339170467.92898.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I asked this in the past. You attempt to format a disk, and it grinds. Why?


From cctech at beyondthepale.ie  Fri Jun  8 08:44:25 2012
From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 14:44:25 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: defective DEC RZ58-E
Message-ID: <01OGG2XK0EUA000KH9@beyondthepale.ie>

>
>I have here an 1,3Gbyte DEC Drive, 5,35 Inch full heigth. (Seems to have
>the old CDC WREN Mechanics)
>It looks, that the drive electronics are toast. It don't spin up
>the BLDC motor and it blocks the SCSI Bus where the drive is connected.
>

I had similar problems with two RZ55 drives in VAX2000 size boxes. They
blinked the activity LED several times at power on but didn't spin up. I
thought the were counting out a fault code.

The bus issue turned out to be a bad cable and the reason they didn't spin
up was because they weren't supposed to spin up until commanded to by the host.

(Just before trying them, I'd tried a different disk that is supposed to spin
up at power up but didn't due to a power supply failure so I was in the wrong
frame of mind for disks that don't spin up automatically. That's my excuse
and I'm sticking to it!)

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.


From cctech at beyondthepale.ie  Fri Jun  8 09:42:36 2012
From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 15:42:36 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: Corroded terminal removal?
Message-ID: <01OGG5ABEJDU000KH9@beyondthepale.ie>

>
>Anyone have tips on removing corroded battery terminals from a
>PCB?
>

If there is enough of it left, file or drill the existing solder to expose
shiney clean areas. Then apply new solder to it. Hopefully the whole lot
will then melt together and can be sucked away with a desoldering pump.

While adding more solder might feel like the worst thing to do to unsolder
something, it really does help.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.


From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Jun  8 11:14:41 2012
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 18:14:41 +0200
Subject: defective DEC RZ58-E
In-Reply-To: <01OGG2XK0EUA000KH9@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <01OGG2XK0EUA000KH9@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <20120608161441.GB65798@beast.freibergnet.de>

Peter Coghlan wrote:

> >
> >I have here an 1,3Gbyte DEC Drive, 5,35 Inch full heigth. (Seems to have
> >the old CDC WREN Mechanics)
> >It looks, that the drive electronics are toast. It don't spin up
> >the BLDC motor and it blocks the SCSI Bus where the drive is connected.
> >
> 
> I had similar problems with two RZ55 drives in VAX2000 size boxes. They
> blinked the activity LED several times at power on but didn't spin up. I
> thought the were counting out a fault code.
> 
> The bus issue turned out to be a bad cable and the reason they didn't spin
> up was because they weren't supposed to spin up until commanded to by the host.
> 
> (Just before trying them, I'd tried a different disk that is supposed to spin
> up at power up but didn't due to a power supply failure so I was in the wrong
> frame of mind for disks that don't spin up automatically. That's my excuse
> and I'm sticking to it!)
> 
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.

No Peter. It is the disk, and I bought is as defective. The LED Connector
on the Board has steady 0.9Volts. Nothing Blinks and I think the SCSI Chip
(from Emulex) on the PCB must be dead, since it stops the SCSI Bus.
I have 2 Tape drives on that bus and an external cable that is going to an
Drive Case with a seperate PSU. I'm using that Case and that (2nd.) SCSI
Bus for testing, other Disks are working.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Jun  8 11:17:34 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 10:17:34 -0600
Subject: Tek Magnolia (Was: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles)
In-Reply-To: <CAL2B=mFGaROSbtCPQJ4XeRKTgSiSaY+mA9ss9Enhd41Kr+6WhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D430A@mail.bensene.com>
 <E1Scfnw-0002vd-4l@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAL2B=mFGaROSbtCPQJ4XeRKTgSiSaY+mA9ss9Enhd41Kr+6WhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1Sd1sU-00070c-IB@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CAL2B=mFGaROSbtCPQJ4XeRKTgSiSaY+mA9ss9Enhd41Kr+6WhQ at mail.gmail.com>,
    Paxton Hoag <innfoclassics at gmail.com> writes:

> Later, I did get a set of 4404s and a set of the original Tektronix
> software for them. I am planning on passing the SW onto another
> collector, Jerry,  for imaging as he has a 4404. I have a 4404 and a
> 4406 to go with the disks....and a bunch of the drive units. I also
> have a Xerox 1108 AI workstation in storage that I got as part of the
> collection.

Sweet!
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun  8 11:27:01 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 09:27:01 -0700
Subject: what would cause a 5 1/4" drive to choke on a standard disk?
In-Reply-To: <1339170467.92898.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339170467.92898.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD1C565.24450.3CEE34@cclist.sydex.com>

On 8 Jun 2012 at 8:47, Chris Tofu wrote:

> I asked this in the past. You attempt to format a disk, and it grinds.
> Why?

99 44/100 out of 100 times, it's dirty/fouled heads (if you're 
certain the disk is okay--formats on a different drive).

Some nasty shedding media will deposit crud on on the heads that 
can't easily be removed with isopropanol.  I've used 
perchloroethylene in those cases.

--Chuck





From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun  8 11:28:50 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 09:28:50 -0700
Subject: Corroded terminal removal?
In-Reply-To: <5B9382FF-0FE1-471F-A92D-17A3DEC967E3@gmail.com>
References: <ED49E5C3-EA03-4B99-BF5D-A7803560EDC2@gmail.com>,
 <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <5B9382FF-0FE1-471F-A92D-17A3DEC967E3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD1C5D2.12880.3E9954@cclist.sydex.com>

On 8 Jun 2012 at 11:40, David Riley wrote:

 
> The big problem is that the ground terminal connects to an
> internal plane, not a surface trace.  I'd be worried about
> removing the hole plating with the drill.  I suppose, since
> it's going to ground, it would be easy enough to white-wire
> to another known ground point, but I'd like to avoid that
> approach if possible.

Use enough heat--those inner ground-plane connections will suck the 
soul out of a standard 40W TC iron.  As others have mentioned, add 
solder to it while you work.

--Chuck



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun  8 14:37:37 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 20:37:37 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Corroded terminal removal?
In-Reply-To: <ED49E5C3-EA03-4B99-BF5D-A7803560EDC2@gmail.com> from "David
 Riley" at Jun 8, 12 06:30:32 am
Message-ID: <m1Sd50A-000J4fC@p850ug1>

> However, the last bits of the terminals for the battery holders
> are still in the holes.  With careful application of abrasives
> and solvent, I managed to clean them to shiny metal, but they're

Have you tried a weak acid, like citric acid? I've found thst helps a lot.

> resisting desoldering pretty well (they seem to be mostly rust
> or similar corroded detritus at this point).
> 
> Anyone have tips on removing corroded battery terminals from a
> PCB?

The other thing that often helps is to melt some new sodler onto the 
connections. 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun  8 14:41:29 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 20:41:29 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Corroded terminal removal?
In-Reply-To: <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun
 8, 12 08:32:00 am
Message-ID: <m1Sd53v-000J4gC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 8 Jun 2012 at 6:30, David Riley wrote:
> 
> 
> > Anyone have tips on removing corroded battery terminals from a
> > PCB?
> 
> Given that it's a battery, why not just drill them out?

Do you _know_ that there are no connections to internal layers of the 
board? Drilling out the solder will most likely damage the throuhg-hole 
plating.

-tony


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun  8 15:26:12 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 13:26:12 -0700
Subject: Corroded terminal removal?
In-Reply-To: <m1Sd53v-000J4gC@p850ug1>
References: <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun
 8, 12 08:32:00 am, <m1Sd53v-000J4gC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FD1FD74.28596.117E794@cclist.sydex.com>

On 8 Jun 2012 at 20:41, Tony Duell wrote:

> Do you _know_ that there are no connections to internal layers of the
> board? Drilling out the solder will most likely damage the
> throuhg-hole plating.

As David noted, if the connection is to the buried ground plane, 
alternate connections are available, should you slip with your #70 
bit.

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Jun  8 16:15:23 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 14:15:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Microsoft cordless telephone
In-Reply-To: <1339167994.96668.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339167994.96668.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120608135525.U56438@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 8 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
> No I don't have one, nor ever owned one (though I was given the base and
> the original box by the same guy who gave me my color Canon AS-100).
> What is one worth? Since I didn't have the actual phone, I chucked it.
> Stupid? It has to be a rare item.

I had a few of them.  900MHz, not very reliable.  Nice IDEA, to use a PC
to run a phone - I had always wanted an answering machine that would use
the caller-ID, instead of my having to decipher mumbles; click on the
display to hear the message; alternate click to dial, etc.  Well it almost
worked.

No two line version, which is why I had more than one.

MICROS~1 stated that it could also function as a TDD (Deaf TTY -
CCITT18?), but nobody in their "tech support" could come up with HOW to
get it to do it - they would literally read aloud the marketing spec
promise, declare that "YES, it can do it", and then not be able to figure
out "what to click on".

It needed manual intervention to recover from power glitches.


Meanwhile, for regular TELEPHONE use, Uniden had a 2-line 900MHz that had
a "spare recharger" in the base, letting the machine continue working
normally during power outages, AND permitting swapping of batteries to
always have a charged one on hand.


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Fri Jun  8 16:16:54 2012
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 23:16:54 +0200
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 00:07:05 +0100
David Brownlee <abs at absd.org> wrote:

> Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
About 10 years ago a friend run a web server on a MicroVAX 2000 to
serve his personal homepage. He netbooted the the NetBSD kernel for the
MV2k and mounted / from a local SCSI disk connected to the "tape port".
Though, he used static pages and thttpd. No AMP bloat.
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Jun  8 16:25:54 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 14:25:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: what would cause a 5 1/4" drive to choke on a standard disk?
In-Reply-To: <1339170467.92898.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339170467.92898.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120608142013.Y56438@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 8 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
> I asked this in the past. You attempt to format a disk, and it grinds. Why?

I've had them squuek, screech, squeal, chatter, seek incessantly, but
never GRIND.   'course, thinking back to auto repair,  sometimes people
have a strange idea of what "grind" sounds like.

excessive seeking is due to read errors, and retries

Are the heads filthy?

is the disk able to turn freely?  With a couple of fingers through the
center hole, you should be able to turn the disk in its jacket. Go to the
edge of a table, and with the disk perpendicular to the edge, rub it HARD,
so that it is slightly deforming the jacket; that will loosen it up a bit.


From chd at chdickman.com  Fri Jun  8 18:12:37 2012
From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 19:12:37 -0400
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <CAAq7DHrk_SOBWH25ONuaTDxE8TK1sVCh-ypGvd2Z2gTCGcBpig@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 00:07:05 +0100
> David Brownlee <abs at absd.org> wrote:
>
> > Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
> About 10 years ago a friend run a web server on a MicroVAX 2000 to
> serve his personal homepage. He netbooted the the NetBSD kernel for the
> MV2k and mounted / from a local SCSI disk connected to the "tape port".
> Though, he used static pages and thttpd. No AMP bloat.
>
> My personal homepage was hosted on a VS3100/30 running NetBSD 1.4 with
Apache and PHP for a couple of years. It worked well. At some point I
upgraded the hardware to a VS4000/60. I had trouble with NetBSD 1.6 and
later and finally stopped using the vax for my web server in about 2004.

-chuck


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  8 18:28:35 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 16:28:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: what would cause a 5 1/4" drive to choke on a standard disk?
Message-ID: <1339198115.56112.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


Not grinding, but that DUHDUHDUHDUHDUHDUH
------------------------------
 On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 2:25 PM PDT Fred Cisin wrote:
 
 >On Fri, 8 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
 >> I asked this in the past. You attempt to format a disk, and it grinds. Why?
 >
 >I've had them squuek, screech, squeal, chatter, seek incessantly, but
 >never GRIND. 'course, thinking back to auto repair, sometimes people
 >have a strange idea of what "grind" sounds like.
 >
 >excessive seeking is due to read errors, and retries
 >
 >Are the heads filthy?
 >
 >is the disk able to turn freely? With a couple of fingers through the
 >center hole, you should be able to turn the disk in its jacket. Go to the
 >edge of a table, and with the disk perpendicular to the edge, rub it HARD,
 >so that it is slightly deforming the jacket; that will loosen it up a bit.


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun  8 19:30:45 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 17:30:45 -0700
Subject: what would cause a 5 1/4" drive to choke on a standard disk?
In-Reply-To: <20120608142013.Y56438@shell.lmi.net>
References: <1339170467.92898.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
 <20120608142013.Y56438@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FD236C5.11659.1F7CCE6@cclist.sydex.com>

On 8 Jun 2012 at 14:25, Fred Cisin wrote:

> I've had them squuek, screech, squeal, chatter, seek incessantly, but
> never GRIND.   'course, thinking back to auto repair,  sometimes
> people have a strange idea of what "grind" sounds like.

When you take your PC to the beach, keep it out of the sand to keep 
it from grinding.

--Chuck



From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Jun  8 23:01:49 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 22:01:49 -0600
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <CAAq7DHrk_SOBWH25ONuaTDxE8TK1sVCh-ypGvd2Z2gTCGcBpig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAAq7DHrk_SOBWH25ONuaTDxE8TK1sVCh-ypGvd2Z2gTCGcBpig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1SdCs1-0000uu-Na@shell.xmission.com>

I wonder if you could make a web server that used TECO as the page
processing language.  TECO could be used to process the headers and
body of the request, modifying it in-place to produce the response
headers and body.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Jun  9 00:01:09 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 01:01:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Death of Ray Bradbury
In-Reply-To: <4FD0A87F.7136.10AE11B@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF-f0a_t24js6WKxVQfqWuRwsoUVnoOtsXH_eWd=qF9ULQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD08146.16383.71ABDA@cclist.sydex.com> <4FD0F0BE.80303@atarimuseum.com>
 <4FD0A87F.7136.10AE11B@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201206090501.BAA15139@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> For me, the attraction of Bradbury is his way with words--almost
> poetic in the way he crafted them.

Almost? :)  The man was a genius at spinning images with words.

He will be missed.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Jun  9 00:04:31 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 22:04:31 -0700
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <E1SdCs1-0000uu-Na@shell.xmission.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAAq7DHrk_SOBWH25ONuaTDxE8TK1sVCh-ypGvd2Z2gTCGcBpig@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1SdCs1-0000uu-Na@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4FD2D95F.8030201@brouhaha.com>

Richard wrote:
> I wonder if you could make a web server that used TECO as the page
> processing language.  TECO could be used to process the headers and
> body of the request, modifying it in-place to produce the response
> headers and body.

I can't imagine why not.  TECO is Turing-complete.  I wouldn't want the 
job of writing it, though.  I've got less productive things to do with 
my time.




From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Jun  9 00:47:42 2012
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2012 22:47:42 -0700
Subject: Grid Compass II Manual?
Message-ID: <4FD2E37E.9050708@mail.msu.edu>

Are manuals for the Grid Compass (or Compass II) archived anywhere?  I 
picked up a Compass II this week (alas, no peripherals or media) and 
having a user's manual would be helpful to get to know my way around its 
OS.

(I suspect there might be one or two things wrong with mine since about 
90% of the time I get System Errors and other interesting behaviors 
while playing around; but having a manual to decipher the errors would 
at least be a start...)

Thanks,
Josh


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Sat Jun  9 11:08:34 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 12:08:34 -0400
Subject: Corroded terminal removal?
In-Reply-To: <4FD1C5D2.12880.3E9954@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <ED49E5C3-EA03-4B99-BF5D-A7803560EDC2@gmail.com>,
 <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <5B9382FF-0FE1-471F-A92D-17A3DEC967E3@gmail.com>
 <4FD1C5D2.12880.3E9954@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <9DFEDEC6-C99A-4975-B176-FC5E5A0EBCE4@gmail.com>

On Jun 8, 2012, at 12:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 8 Jun 2012 at 11:40, David Riley wrote:
> 
> 
>> The big problem is that the ground terminal connects to an
>> internal plane, not a surface trace.  I'd be worried about
>> removing the hole plating with the drill.  I suppose, since
>> it's going to ground, it would be easy enough to white-wire
>> to another known ground point, but I'd like to avoid that
>> approach if possible.
> 
> Use enough heat--those inner ground-plane connections will suck the 
> soul out of a standard 40W TC iron.  As others have mentioned, add 
> solder to it while you work.

Right - I have enough desoldering experience to know to keep
it wet (it's more intuitive than you might think, as molten
lead is a much better heat carrier than a point contact).  I
guess it's getting about time for me to upgrade from the 30W
Weller fire-starter I've been using for years, though.

I guess most of my question boils down to the fact that the
pins seem to have corroded all the way through, so I didn't
think they'd be particularly amenable to conventional
extraction.  CAIG Flux-Off seems to do fairly well for
removing the worst of the corrosion once sufficiently abraded,
but I suppose DeOx-It would be a better candidate if I had any.



- Dave




From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sat Jun  9 08:45:19 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 06:45:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Corroded terminal removal?
In-Reply-To: <9DFEDEC6-C99A-4975-B176-FC5E5A0EBCE4@gmail.com>
References: <ED49E5C3-EA03-4B99-BF5D-A7803560EDC2@gmail.com>,
 <4FD1B880.19553.A8F6E@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <5B9382FF-0FE1-471F-A92D-17A3DEC967E3@gmail.com>
 <4FD1C5D2.12880.3E9954@cclist.sydex.com>
 <9DFEDEC6-C99A-4975-B176-FC5E5A0EBCE4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206090644350.17749@grumble.deltasoft.com>

> Right - I have enough desoldering experience to know to keep
> it wet (it's more intuitive than you might think, as molten
> lead is a much better heat carrier than a point contact).  I
> guess it's getting about time for me to upgrade from the 30W
> Weller fire-starter I've been using for years, though.
>
> I guess most of my question boils down to the fact that the
> pins seem to have corroded all the way through, so I didn't
> think they'd be particularly amenable to conventional
> extraction.  CAIG Flux-Off seems to do fairly well for
> removing the worst of the corrosion once sufficiently abraded,
> but I suppose DeOx-It would be a better candidate if I had any.
>

Dave, I'd recommend the Hakko FX-888.  It's a very nice iron and can be 
had for around $80.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  9 12:01:54 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 10:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC cartridge,
 s/w
Message-ID: <1339261314.68053.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I have a lot of M* stuff, but not everything. We can trade or I can send you moola-shmoola. Reply offlist or call 804-732-7608 (I intentionally put the area code after the exchange, so swap it).


From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Jun  9 12:36:14 2012
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:36:14 +0200
Subject: defective DEC RZ58-E
In-Reply-To: <20120608102454.GD43258@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <20120608100222.GB43258@beast.freibergnet.de>
 <CA+0-H5Q=8UJa=sSs1oP-76g+UAsautGqgC9J+OCimAdyvZ6Ciw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120608102454.GD43258@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <20120609173614.GB87578@beast.freibergnet.de>

Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
> 
> > On 6/8/12, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> > > I have here an 1,3Gbyte DEC Drive, 5,35 Inch full heigth. (Seems to have
> > > the old CDC WREN Mechanics)
> > > It looks, that the drive electronics are toast. It don't spin up
> > > the BLDC motor and it blocks the SCSI Bus where the drive is connected.
> > >
> > > Maybe there is someone out here that has a Drive with an Head Crash and
> > > want to sell me the electronics?
> > 
> > Let me check if I do when I get home. If I have one, you're welcome to it.
> 
> Sounds great Camiel :-)
> 
> There should be a service manual for that drives "EK-RZ58D-SV" anyone seen
> that or have it?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Holm

Unfortunately Camiel hasn't found RZ58-E in his junkbox, so
the call still is active...

Can you please take a look..?


Kind Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Jun  9 12:42:34 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 10:42:34 -0700
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items,
 in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w
In-Reply-To: <1339261314.68053.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339261314.68053.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD38B0A.4090207@bitsavers.org>

On 6/9/12 10:01 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> I have a lot of M* stuff, but not everything.

Do you have service schematics, or dumped the firmware?
I have some documentation at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mindset/



From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Sat Jun  9 14:17:29 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 21:17:29 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com>
References: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5S+Ok8q0jt31OigOxAhuoc9cLp--aLnj+fpTk18wKB-5Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven <iamcamiel at gmail.com> wrote:
> I?ve completed a list of boards in the P800 haul:

I've placed photographs of all the different types of boards on
http://p800.wikispaces.com/Boards. I've still got a few boards that
are unidentified. I've also got a few IC's that I can't identify:

TERNET-1701
RTC REC0612
RTC REC0612A
RTC REC613P

Anyone heard of these?

I've also got some Philips boards (6U eurocard size) with 8080 and
8085 CPU's and a single 64-pin (row A+C) DIN 41612 connector. Cards
are labeled "CRB 1" (8080), 3 x "CRD 2" (8080), "CRK 1" (8085). Any
idea what these are, anyone?

Camiel



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  9 16:50:42 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 14:50:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items,
 in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w
Message-ID: <1339278642.42505.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


turns out none of my units work anymore. Short of pulling the roms... I may have the service docs. I know I have the marketing guide.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Jun  9 18:35:25 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 16:35:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC
 cartridge, s/w
In-Reply-To: <1339278642.42505.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339278642.42505.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120609163501.L97628@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 9 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
> turns out none of my units work anymore. Short of pulling the roms... I
> may have the service docs. I know I have the marketing guide.

Mindset was always much more about marketing than about service.





From curt at atarimuseum.com  Sat Jun  9 19:07:22 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 20:07:22 -0400
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items,
 in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w
In-Reply-To: <1339278642.42505.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339278642.42505.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <DA72AFE4-0019-4D60-8B9C-2AB2189E7CBF@atarimuseum.com>

Basic was never released on rom cartridge.   Yes it was mentioned in marketing materials but was never developed onto rom



Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 9, 2012, at 5:50 PM, Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> turns out none of my units work anymore. Short of pulling the roms... I may have the service docs. I know I have the marketing guide.



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  9 19:17:30 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 17:17:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items,
 in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w
Message-ID: <1339287450.67397.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


I might be forced to agree. They arent very reliable. To say the least. But that doesnt diminish theyre collectibility. Theyre just one of the grooviest units out there. And if anyone wants a non-working one, let me know.
------------------------------
 On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 4:35 PM PDT Fred Cisin wrote:
 
 >On Sat, 9 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
 >> turns out none of my units work anymore. Short of pulling the roms... I
 >> may have the service docs. I know I have the marketing guide.
 >
 >Mindset was always much more about marketing than about service.
 >
 >
 >


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun  9 20:44:47 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2012 18:44:47 -0700
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items,
 in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w
In-Reply-To: <1339287450.67397.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339287450.67397.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD3999F.23458.20D2F53@cclist.sydex.com>

On 9 Jun 2012 at 17:17, Chris Tofu wrote:

> 
> I might be forced to agree. They arent very reliable. To say the
> least. But that doesnt diminish theyre collectibility. Theyre just one
> of the grooviest units out there. And if anyone wants a non-working
> one, let me know. 

Just curious--is the 80186 in the Mindset a ceramic LCC or PLCC or 
PGA?  We used early 80186 steuppings (circa 1981/82) and they, like 
the early 80286 were always CLCC packages (one of my least favorite 
packages) .  This was before the thing escaped officially.  

--Chuck





From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  9 21:15:51 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 19:15:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items,
 in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w
Message-ID: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


no??? What about on disk?
------------------------------
 On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 5:07 PM PDT Curt Vendel wrote:
 
 >Basic was never released on rom cartridge. Yes it was mentioned in marketing materials but was never developed onto rom
 >
 >
 >
 >Sent from my iPhone
 >
 >On Jun 9, 2012, at 5:50 PM, Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
 >> 
 >> turns out none of my units work anymore. Short of pulling the roms... I may have the service docs. I know I have the marketing guide.
 >


From curt at atarimuseum.com  Sat Jun  9 21:43:21 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 22:43:21 -0400
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items,
 in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w
In-Reply-To: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B0A88EBF-C8CF-421C-9A3A-AB324417A001@atarimuseum.com>

Yes, GW Basic for Mindset was released on diskette



Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 9, 2012, at 10:15 PM, Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> no??? What about on disk?
> ------------------------------
> On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 5:07 PM PDT Curt Vendel wrote:
> 
>> Basic was never released on rom cartridge. Yes it was mentioned in marketing materials but was never developed onto rom
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jun 9, 2012, at 5:50 PM, Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> turns out none of my units work anymore. Short of pulling the roms... I may have the service docs. I know I have the marketing guide.
>> 



From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Sun Jun 10 02:33:15 2012
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 09:33:15 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5S+Ok8q0jt31OigOxAhuoc9cLp--aLnj+fpTk18wKB-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com>
 <CA+0-H5S+Ok8q0jt31OigOxAhuoc9cLp--aLnj+fpTk18wKB-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD44DBB.6010600@bluewin.ch>

Thanks for the pics.

Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor memory. ?

The core memory boards for the same system are 32kx16 bit.

Jos


From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Sun Jun 10 04:40:18 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:40:18 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <4FD44DBB.6010600@bluewin.ch>
References: <022301cd4257$e4374db0$aca5e910$@gmail.com>
 <CA+0-H5S+Ok8q0jt31OigOxAhuoc9cLp--aLnj+fpTk18wKB-5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD44DBB.6010600@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5SSiizai_s0HN4Fp+5_+wqZzVoUQMWcOFTTjqPwsYDKeg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Jos Dreesen <jdr_use at bluewin.ch> wrote:

> Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor memory.
> ?
>
> The core memory boards for the same system are 32kx16 bit.

I'm certain that it uses 21 bits so it can correct single bit errors
and detect double-bit errors. This is known as the Hamming code. For
16 data bits, it requires 5 parity bits.

Camiel.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun 10 10:11:09 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:11:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC
 cartridge, s/w
In-Reply-To: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net>

>  >Basic was never released on rom cartridge. Yes it was mentioned in
> marketing materials but was never developed onto rom
On Sat, 9 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
> no??? What about on disk?

Sure.
BASCOM
GW-BASIC


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 10 10:23:32 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:23:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items,
 in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w
In-Reply-To: <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net>
References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <1339341812.73558.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Sure.

BASCOM
GW-BASIC

Specific to the Mindset? I can run BASIC for the TI Pros on a vanilla pc. But I have to believe there's features specific to the TI that would make it choke on that same pc.
?So...what does it take to get BASIC onto a cartridge? Is it as simple as transferring execution the address where the executable begins? I have a Peanut cartridge somewhere in my stash. The only carts I have for the Mindset are NVRAMs. 


From abs at absd.org  Sun Jun 10 11:33:49 2012
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:33:49 +0100
Subject: Webserver performance on VAX [Was: Retrocomputing ... VAMP ...]
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pbZEq7eZCm7zoEzx5cMnguPUREWX4b20zHCsaxEqmCBZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8 June 2012 22:16, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 00:07:05 +0100
> David Brownlee <abs at absd.org> wrote:
>
>> Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
> About 10 years ago a friend run a web server on a MicroVAX 2000 to
> serve his personal homepage. He netbooted the the NetBSD kernel for the
> MV2k and mounted / from a local SCSI disk connected to the "tape port".
> Though, he used static pages and thttpd. No AMP bloat.

The VAX has quite different relative performance characteristics to
current standard target x86/arm platforms in terms of memory
bandwidth, context switch cost, function call overhead and suchlike.

I wonder how various web servers perform on a VAX?

Obvious ones to test would be apache (1,2.2 2.4), nginx, thttpd,
bozohttpd (those are just the ones I've used myself), lighttpd. yaws
and mono-xsp could be interesting is erlang and mono compile :)

A simple static test and maybe php with fastcgi for a start.

I'd probably just use apachebench from a fast local x86 box.

Does anyone else have suggestions as to web servers or different tests
that might be interesting?


From abs at absd.org  Sun Jun 10 11:34:38 2012
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:34:38 +0100
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <CAAq7DHrk_SOBWH25ONuaTDxE8TK1sVCh-ypGvd2Z2gTCGcBpig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAAq7DHrk_SOBWH25ONuaTDxE8TK1sVCh-ypGvd2Z2gTCGcBpig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pacMtLG_XoOVhimJKMV_CvNfdQge9W-Ej-iu21mOLRQWg@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 June 2012 00:12, Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 00:07:05 +0100
>> David Brownlee <abs at absd.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
>> About 10 years ago a friend run a web server on a MicroVAX 2000 to
>> serve his personal homepage. He netbooted the the NetBSD kernel for the
>> MV2k and mounted / from a local SCSI disk connected to the "tape port".
>> Though, he used static pages and thttpd. No AMP bloat.
>>
>> My personal homepage was hosted on a VS3100/30 running NetBSD 1.4 with
> Apache and PHP for a couple of years. It worked well. At some point I
> upgraded the hardware to a VS4000/60. I had trouble with NetBSD 1.6 and
> later and finally stopped using the vax for my web server in about 2004.

Sorry to hear that - can you recall what the issues were?


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun 10 11:36:38 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 09:36:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC
 cartridge, s/w
In-Reply-To: <1339341812.73558.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net>
 <1339341812.73558.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120610092216.K21266@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 10 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
> Specific to the Mindset? I can run BASIC for the TI Pros on a vanilla
> pc.
> But I have to believe there's features specific to the TI that would
> make it choke on that same pc.

Which version of MS-DOS are you running on your mindset?
Which ones do you HAVE?

Do you just need BASIC, or do you think that you need one integrated into
the hardware, with every graphics and sound mode implemented?

Use a GENERIC GWBASIC, NOT the one that was "customized" for the TI.
Or use the one that was "customized" for the Mindset.


>?So...what does it take to get BASIC onto a cartridge?
1) write a BASIC that is designed for cartridge
> Is it as simple as
> transferring execution the address where the executable begins? I have a
> Peanut cartridge somewhere in my stash.
Is that PCJr?   THAT cartridge will do you NO GOOD on the Mindset.
> The only carts I have for the
> Mindset are NVRAMs.

Is the file that you want to cartridge an .EXE or a .COM?
DO NOT TRUST the extension of the file!  Are the first two bytes of it
"MZ"?
If it is an .EXE, then NO.  Those have an elaborate load process.
If it is a .COM, then YES, it can be made into a cartridge.  Their load
process consists of generating a PSP, loading the file into that segment
at 100h, and doing a jump to 100h

(NO, EXE2BIN will NOT convert any non-trivial program)



From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 10 15:49:43 2012
From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 16:49:43 -0400
Subject: Upcoming N8 home brew computer PCBs ordered
Message-ID: <015f01cd474a$a9aea740$fd0bf5c0$@YAHOO.COM>

Hi!  Good news! I ordered at batch of the N8 PCBs.  The N8 is a group
project design from the N8VEM home brew computing project.  There is a
detailed description at the N8VEM wiki below.

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/54039670/N8%20announcement

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=N8-final

Please contact me if interested.  I anticipate the PCBs will arrive early
next week ~19 Jul 2012

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Jun 10 15:38:55 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 21:38:55 +0100 (BST)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <4FD44DBB.6010600@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Jun 10,
 12 09:33:15 am
Message-ID: <m1Sdoub-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

> Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor memory. ?

ECC? Is 21 bits enough to detect and correct any signle-bit error?

-tony



From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Jun 10 16:38:17 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 14:38:17 -0700
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <m1Sdoub-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
References: <4FD44DBB.6010600@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Jun 10,
 12 09:33:15 am, <m1Sdoub-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FD4B159.15632.1477047@cclist.sydex.com>

On 10 Jun 2012 at 21:38, Tony Duell wrote:

> > Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor
> > memory. ?
> 
> ECC? Is 21 bits enough to detect and correct any signle-bit error?

Doesn't anyone call it SECDED any more?

--Chuck



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sun Jun 10 17:00:21 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 18:00:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <4FD4B159.15632.1477047@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FD4B159.15632.1477047@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201206102200.SAA04805@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>> Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide
>>> semiconductor memory. ?
>> ECC? Is 21 bits enough to detect and correct any signle-bit error?
> Doesn't anyone call it SECDED any more?

I haven't thought enough to be sure about whether 21 bits is enough for
either, but SEC does not necessarily imply DED....

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Sun Jun 10 17:15:13 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 18:15:13 -0400
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <m1Sdoub-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
References: <m1Sdoub-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com>

On Jun 10, 2012, at 16:38, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:

>> Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor memory. ?
> 
> ECC? Is 21 bits enough to detect and correct any signle-bit error?

Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits, which would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits).

- Dave


From chris at mainecoon.com  Sun Jun 10 17:16:59 2012
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 15:16:59 -0700
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <m1Sdoub-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
References: <m1Sdoub-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <39FBEBC1-0320-45D7-B648-5D31EEDB962D@mainecoon.com>


On 10 Jun 2012, at 1:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote:

>> Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor memory. ?
> 
> ECC? Is 21 bits enough to detect and correct any signle-bit error?

It's enough for SECDED; it meets the famous D + P + 1 <= 2^P test.

--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com               AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com        PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685  6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."







From useddec at gmail.com  Sun Jun 10 17:24:25 2012
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:24:25 -0500
Subject: Seagate ST4206 disk drives
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMD4-Ty3YqufRenhcCciWzuCoissLh4BiVY6YMqxhUrkQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have 3 ST4206 drives in sealed static bags (spares from a
maintenance company) and 2 loose ones. Feel free to make an offer off
list. More to follow soon.  Shippping is from 61853.

Thanks, Paul


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sun Jun 10 17:45:33 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 23:45:33 +0100
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0834C028A0C346358523644601EE57C3@G4UGMT41>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley
> Sent: 10 June 2012 23:15
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: P800 boards
> 
> 
> On Jun 10, 2012, at 16:38, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
> 
> >> Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide 
> semiconductor 
> >> memory. ?
> > 
> > ECC? Is 21 bits enough to detect and correct any signle-bit error?
> 
> Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 
> bits, which would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits).
> 
> - Dave
>

Memory often uses Hamming Correction so it can correct single bit errors and
detect multiple bit errors. I believe in this case for 16 bits of data you
need 5 bits of parity... (2**m-1)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamming_code

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum


 




From chd at chdickman.com  Sun Jun 10 19:00:10 2012
From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:00:10 -0400
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pacMtLG_XoOVhimJKMV_CvNfdQge9W-Ej-iu21mOLRQWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAAq7DHrk_SOBWH25ONuaTDxE8TK1sVCh-ypGvd2Z2gTCGcBpig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pacMtLG_XoOVhimJKMV_CvNfdQge9W-Ej-iu21mOLRQWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAq7DHqjN22dMzofFEG9hQaDuE3-1BQBL8hEFyoWhzwNgab1wQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 12:34 PM, David Brownlee <abs at absd.org> wrote:

> On 9 June 2012 00:12, Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
> >wrote:
>   I had trouble with NetBSD 1.6 and
> > later and finally stopped using the vax for my web server in about 2004.
>
> Sorry to hear that - can you recall what the issues were?
>

I couldn't get the packages to build and it was usually something floating
point related. I think Perl was one that I looked into the most.


From david at classiccomputing.com  Sun Jun 10 19:04:35 2012
From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:04:35 -0400
Subject: Get a great deal on a recently published computer history book
Message-ID: <73022672-9A3C-4A2A-8649-8A2C38EF2333@classiccomputing.com>

I've posted about my book here not long ago, so I hope you all will indulge me one last time. I really want to get a bunch of them into peoples hands, so I'm offering a special, great deal -

Get both the book, "The Complete Historically Brewed" and the zine, "Classic Computing" for just $25 shipped! For  international buyers, I'll subtract $3 off the shipping.

Find out more here - http://www.classiccomputing.com/CC/HB_Book.html

Best,

David Greelish, Computer Historian

- Author, "The Complete Historically Brewed"
- Founder, Atlanta Historical Computing Society
- "Classic Computing Show" podcast
- "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast
- "Retro Computing Roundtable" podcast

ClassicComputing.com  |  atlhcs.org



From tpresence at hotmail.com  Sat Jun  9 09:23:18 2012
From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 08:23:18 -0600
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <BLU157-W6CC12BE933E9CA3AA0563A2F10@phx.gbl>


I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 to the console of a microvax III (3900).

I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable, but there are a few flavors.  At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D, however its possible I ned H8575-E.

Someone know which one to purchase?  I have the BC16E cable required...

Kevin
 		 	   		  

From earl at retrobits.com  Sat Jun  9 14:07:19 2012
From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 12:07:19 -0700
Subject: 25 RL02K Carts up near Portland, Or
In-Reply-To: <4FCD9F01.7000002@gmail.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <4FCD9F01.7000002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMDAk4fDYP5ozdvjSFPawNMAkZHOKGyqtJdG7PuB3ouAQQGybg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 10:54 PM, mc68010 <mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have nothing to do with this but, ran across it searching Craigslist.
>
> http://portland.craigslist.**org/mlt/sys/3058089196.html<http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/sys/3058089196.html>
>
> Here's the text:
>
> "I have for sale a few vintage data cartridges. They are 10mb and in good
> used condition.. text 503.891.3115.. price is $25 each or all 25 for $400"
>

I guess Portland must have cornered the market on used RL02 cartridges.  I
have about 35 myself.

- Earl


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 10 19:16:38 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 17:16:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items,
 in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w
In-Reply-To: <20120610092216.K21266@shell.lmi.net>
References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net>
 <1339341812.73558.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <20120610092216.K21266@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <1339373798.85051.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Which version of MS-DOS are you running on your mindset?

Which ones do you HAVE?

C: I don't bloody know Fred. I believe I said they were all dead as doorknobs, therefore I can't possibly be running anything on them. I am running a sale though. I can't remember what images I have either. When I get into all that crud I'm going to make them available to the burgeoning Mindset community. You want a set?

Do you just need BASIC, or do you think that you need one integrated into
the hardware, with every graphics and sound mode implemented?

C: all of the above preferably. As it stands though I might wind up high and dry. Is there a Mindset specific BASIC? 

Use a GENERIC GWBASIC, NOT the one that was "customized" for the TI.
Or use the one that was "customized" for the Mindset.

C: but the TI version runs on stock pc's. Why can't I run it on the Mindset??? Screen mode 0 at least is compatible w/peecee hardwarez.

>?So...what does it take to get BASIC onto a cartridge?

1) write a BASIC that is designed for cartridge

?C: Homey don't play that. 

Is that PCJr??  THAT cartridge will do you NO GOOD on the Mindset.

?C: Obviously if it's not physically compatible. Give me some credit. But it is at least cartridge BASIC, don't need to write my own. Shmott, no?

> The only carts I have for the
> Mindset are NVRAMs.

Is the file that you want to cartridge an .EXE or a .COM?

C:? Most early Gee-Whiz BASICs are .com's, no? I'm not trying to cartridge anything at the moment. I'm just poking around.

?And incidentally isn't it astounding how much computer lingo gets recycled - 

DO NOT TRUST the extension of the file!? Are the first two bytes of it
"MZ"?

C: That's actually a good point. But if YOU wrote something, should I trust it then?

If it is an .EXE, then NO.? Those have an elaborate load process.
If it is a .COM, then YES, it can be made into a cartridge.? Their load
process consists of generating a PSP, loading the file into that segment
at 100h, and doing a jump to 100h

C: All "executables" get loaded at offset 100h, no? That is CS:0100. I thought that's how ti worked.

(NO, EXE2BIN will NOT convert any non-trivial program)

?C: I never would have suggested that. If it was written to be a .com, and obeyed the rules, _none_ of which I remember, then it would. I don't know why you have to continually insult me. Sheesh.
?Incidentally the "tiny" model in later versions of MASM indicate the resultant code would become a .com, no?

From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sun Jun 10 19:41:11 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 20:41:11 -0400
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <BLU157-W6CC12BE933E9CA3AA0563A2F10@phx.gbl>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <BLU157-W6CC12BE933E9CA3AA0563A2F10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4FD53EA7.9090005@neurotica.com>

On 06/09/2012 10:23 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote:
> I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 to the console of a microvax III (3900).
> 
> I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable, but there are a few flavors.  At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D, however its possible I ned H8575-E.
> 
> Someone know which one to purchase?  I have the BC16E cable required...

  There are lots of flavors.  Though Tony will probably blow a fuse when
reading this suggestion, figuring out the absolute perfectly correct one
is a complete waste of time...Get an MMJ adapter, whichever one you can
find.  Plug it in.  If it doesn't talk, insert a null modem, and it will
talk.  Simple as that.

  Be sure to disable flow control on the terminal.

  Again, I'm usually a purist to a fault, but where async serial is
concerned, if the GOAL is to get it talking, do what I said above...if
the goal is to spend two hours diving into the (unbelievably poor) RS232
standard, and then figuring out your mix of vendors' creative
interpretations of that standard, then figure out how to make it all
talk, then go get exactly what you need and plug it in...I've already
gotten the OS halfway installed by that point.  I spent years agonizing
and being anal-retentive over "which one is DTE, which is DCE" etc etc
and just said "screw this, I want to BOOT the damn thing!"...and have
never looked back. ;)

  If you have any sort of MicroVAXen, you should keep a few MMJ adapters
of various flavors around anyway and if you have any sort of random
non-PeeCee computers, you should have a handful of null modems, gender
changers, DE9<->DB25 adapters, etc etc.  You will use them all the time,
if you don't already.

             -Dave 	   		

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun 10 20:02:07 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 18:02:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC
 cartridge, s/w
In-Reply-To: <1339373798.85051.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net>
 <1339341812.73558.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <20120610092216.K21266@shell.lmi.net>
 <1339373798.85051.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120610173623.F32239@shell.lmi.net>

> > Is that PCJr??  THAT cartridge will do you NO GOOD on the Mindset.

> ?C: Obviously if it's not physically compatible. Give me some credit.
> But it is at least cartridge BASIC, don't need to write my own. Shmott, no?

Unfortunately, a "BASIC cartridge" could be for adding BASIC to a
computer, OR could be for supplementing a BASIC that is built-in, much
like BASICA being a supplement to the ROM BASIC, rather than stand-alone.
Of course SOME companies, such as Compaq, renamed their GW-BASIC to
BASICA.COM "for compatability with legacy batch files"

> > DO NOT TRUST the extension of the file!? Are the first two bytes of it
> > "MZ"?

> C: That's actually a good point. But if YOU wrote something, should I
> trust it then?

NO.  Sometimes, including the files that come with MS-DOS, an .EXE may be
renamed a .COM or vice-versa (harmlessly) just to be compatible with
legacy batch files, OR because a .COM will be run before a .EXE if the
rest of the filename matches!  Once it is "committed" to running an
executable file, MS-DOS doesn't CARE whether it is REALLY a
.COM or .EXE until it starts to load it, and then it ignores the extension
and looks at the first two bytes.

C: All "executables" get loaded at offset 100h, no? That is CS:0100. I
thought that's how ti worked.
NO.  A .EXE can make exceptions, and can have more than one segment.  As
you know,  a .COM is one segment, and is an actual image of what will be
in memory.

[EXE2BIN]
>?C: I never would have suggested that. If it was written to be a .com,
> and obeyed the rules, _none_ of which I remember, then it would. I don't
> know why you have to continually insult me. Sheesh. ?

I will stop insulting you as soon as there is any indication that you
already know what we are talking about.  (such as that paragraph, or the
next one)  And just how am I, or anybody else, supposed to know that you
already know that EXE2BIN does NOT work on any and every .EXE (as is
implied in the MS-DOS docs)?

> Incidentally the
> "tiny" model in later versions of MASM indicate the resultant code would
> become a.com, no?
Yes, but that is not all the requirements.   It is actually quite easy to
make a file that is NOT compatible with being .COM in "tiny" model.  Some
obvious situations would be writing a device driver, writing code to
be ROM'ed, or writing an overlay module.










From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 10 20:28:39 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 18:28:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items,
 in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w
In-Reply-To: <20120610173623.F32239@shell.lmi.net>
References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net>
 <1339341812.73558.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <20120610092216.K21266@shell.lmi.net>
 <1339373798.85051.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <20120610173623.F32239@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <1339378119.61412.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

> C: That's actually a good point. But if YOU wrote something, should I

> trust it then?

NO.? 

C: Thanks for the heads up. Oopha!

I will stop insulting you as soon as there is any indication that you
already know what we are talking about.? (such as that paragraph, or the
next one)? And just how am I, or anybody else, supposed to know that you
already know that EXE2BIN does NOT work on any and every .EXE (as is
implied in the MS-DOS docs)?

C: See I knew you were insulting me. At least you're honest, despite said statement a paragraph ago. Regardless of what the MS-DOofiS manual says, I learned properly. I read Peter Abel's book. I want to check the Tandy 2000 MS-DOS manual also. I believe it gives more or less accurate info on that. 

> Incidentally the
> "tiny" model in later versions of MASM indicate the resultant code would
> become a.com, no?
Yes, but that is not all the requirements.?  It is actually quite easy to
make a file that is NOT compatible with being .COM in "tiny" model.? Some
obvious situations would be writing a device driver, writing code to
be ROM'ed, or writing an overlay module.

C: Okay. So the tiny model doesn't necessarily denote a .com. Gotcha.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun 10 21:17:04 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 19:17:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC
 cartridge, s/w
In-Reply-To: <1339378119.61412.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339294551.85563.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <20120610080938.D19759@shell.lmi.net>
 <1339341812.73558.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <20120610092216.K21266@shell.lmi.net>
 <1339373798.85051.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <20120610173623.F32239@shell.lmi.net>
 <1339378119.61412.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120610184153.X34509@shell.lmi.net>

C: See I knew you were insulting me. At least you're honest, despite said statement a paragraph ago. Regardless of what the MS-DOofiS manual says, I learned properly. I read Peter Abel's book. I want to check the Tandy 2000 MS-DOS manual also. I believe it gives more or less accurate info on that.

Not deliberately.  I included a lot of beginning and simplistic stuff,
because I had no way to know that you already had some familiarity with
different types of MS-DOS executable, etc.

Sorry about all of the silliness about .COM, .EXE, EXE2BIN, etc.


A guy who used to work for me 20 years ago was into Mindset.  But he
doesn't have any of it any more, and probably remembers little or nothing
about it.



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 10 21:51:47 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 19:51:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items,
 in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w
Message-ID: <1339383107.92717.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


oh you know you meant it so stop all your fibbing!
------------------------------
 On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 7:17 PM PDT Fred Cisin wrote:
 
 >C: See I knew you were insulting me. At least you're honest, despite said statement a paragraph ago. Regardless of what the MS-DOofiS manual says, I learned properly. I read Peter Abel's book. I want to check the Tandy 2000 MS-DOS manual also. I believe it gives more or less accurate info on that.
 >
 >Not deliberately. I included a lot of beginning and simplistic stuff,
 >because I had no way to know that you already had some familiarity with
 >different types of MS-DOS executable, etc.
 >
 >Sorry about all of the silliness about .COM, .EXE, EXE2BIN, etc.
 >
 >
 >A guy who used to work for me 20 years ago was into Mindset. But he
 >doesn't have any of it any more, and probably remembers little or nothing
 >about it.
 >


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 10 21:51:56 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 19:51:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items,
 in particular a BASIC cartridge, s/w
Message-ID: <1339383116.33918.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


oh you know you meant it so stop all your fibbing!


From jws at jwsss.com  Mon Jun 11 03:24:13 2012
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 01:24:13 -0700
Subject: 2314 parts on epay
Message-ID: <4FD5AB2D.3080302@jwsss.com>


These are horribly overpriced as is all the vendor has, but this auction 
includes three cans of hydraulic fluid for these drives and some other 
plumbing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/180899093505

There is another auction for more 2314 equipment

http://www.ebay.com/itm/180899093355

Also if you look at other auctions, he is very proud of several 
Department of Defense manuals about card and unit record equipment.  
Maybe that is rare enough to be worth $500 / manual, but I'm not a buyer 
at that price.

Jim


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Jun 11 08:26:46 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 06:26:46 -0700
Subject: 2314 parts on epay
In-Reply-To: <4FD5AB2D.3080302@jwsss.com>
References: <4FD5AB2D.3080302@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <4FD5F216.7080704@bitsavers.org>

On 6/11/12 1:24 AM, jim s wrote:
>
> These are horribly overpriced as is all the vendor has

He is nuts. Someone gave him my email address and I ignored him.



From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Jun 11 09:53:24 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 07:53:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
Message-ID: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>

Marklar was, of course, the Intel version of OS X which existed in Apple's
skunkworks after the apparent demise of Star Trek (classic OS on x86). I say
apparent, because this post, allegedly written by the wife of the chief
engineer, implies that Marklar rose from the ashes of Star Trek due to this
guy's efforts.

http://www.quora.com/Apple-Inc-2/How-does-Apple-keep-secrets-so-well/answer/Kim-Scheinberg?srid=i1

Not sure how true it is; perhaps Al Kossow knows.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Experience only makes you more interesting and marketable. -- Judy Blackburn


From jon at jonworld.com  Mon Jun 11 10:05:24 2012
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 11:05:24 -0400
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+2ZEMySqWxCXCEC19bNM=Vvu+JZmkcYYhBSxLbyEjtCEQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com>wrote:

> Marklar was, of course, the Intel version of OS X which existed in Apple's
> skunkworks after the apparent demise of Star Trek (classic OS on x86). I
> say
> apparent, because this post, allegedly written by the wife of the chief
> engineer, implies that Marklar rose from the ashes of Star Trek due to this
> guy's efforts.
>
>
> http://www.quora.com/Apple-Inc-2/How-does-Apple-keep-secrets-so-well/answer/Kim-Scheinberg?srid=i1
>
> Not sure how true it is; perhaps Al Kossow knows.
>

I love the South Park reference, but I'm wondering why they kept NetInfo
around for so many years and only recently ditched it.


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Jun 11 10:38:30 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 08:38:30 -0700
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>

On 6/11/12 7:53 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> http://www.quora.com/Apple-Inc-2/How-does-Apple-keep-secrets-so-well/answer/Kim-Scheinberg?srid=i1
>
> Not sure how true it is; perhaps Al Kossow knows.
>

It's real. Could someone make this up? Though it really was not that important for another
couple of years until there was no portable roadmap for G5 from IBM. Nice to see some oldtimers
posting some comments there.

What it doesn't go into is all the bad blood between the NeXT, A/UX, and Classic OS groups (JK and
Sokol were long time Apple Unix guys).

When things got bad in the late 90's, a lot of good people lost their jobs because they couldn't
find a place to go when their groups were disbanded. The thing you figured out at Apple early is
if you were going to survive, you had to be looking for your next gig inside the company. Some
times groups got to stay together to do the next generation of product, sometimes not. The thing
that was destroyed when Steve came back was the ability to network to do this because of all the
secrecy. It has gotten a LOT worse since I left. Franky, I pity the people there now. It is not
a nice place to work and is not somewhere I would ever consider going back to.




From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Jun 11 10:52:43 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 08:52:43 -0700
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <p06240829cbfbc375ca35@[192.168.1.199]>

At 7:53 AM -0700 6/11/12, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>Marklar was, of course, the Intel version of OS X which existed in Apple's
>skunkworks after the apparent demise of Star Trek (classic OS on x86). I say
>apparent, because this post, allegedly written by the wife of the chief
>engineer, implies that Marklar rose from the ashes of Star Trek due to this
>guy's efforts.
>
>http://www.quora.com/Apple-Inc-2/How-does-Apple-keep-secrets-so-well/answer/Kim-Scheinberg?srid=i1
>
>Not sure how true it is; perhaps Al Kossow knows.

One thing that I find suspicious about this is that the first few 
Developers releases for Mac OS X ran on Intel-based systems.  Apple 
had to port it to PPC, they didn't have to port to Intel, as it 
already ran on Intel.  I'd be more inclined to believe that the PPC 
processor was never intended to be the long term target for Mac OS X, 
than I am to believe that at some point it didn't run on Intel.

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From md.benson at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 10:53:13 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 16:53:13 +0100
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <CAEOZr+2ZEMySqWxCXCEC19bNM=Vvu+JZmkcYYhBSxLbyEjtCEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
 <CAEOZr+2ZEMySqWxCXCEC19bNM=Vvu+JZmkcYYhBSxLbyEjtCEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8400481012859501786@unknownmsgid>

On 11 Jun 2012, at 16:13, Jonathan Katz <jon at jonworld.com> wrote:

> I love the South Park reference, but I'm wondering why they kept NetInfo
> around for so many years and only recently ditched it.

That was inheritance from NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP and you're right, it
didn't really disappear until 10.4 or 10.5 IIRC. It was ugly, it was
even worse in OPENSTEP!

-- 
Mark Benson

http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson


From md.benson at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 11:23:56 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:23:56 +0100
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <p06240829cbfbc375ca35@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
 <p06240829cbfbc375ca35@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <4147706669824788312@unknownmsgid>

On 11 Jun 2012, at 17:00, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:

> One thing that I find suspicious about this is that the first few Developers releases for Mac OS X ran on Intel-based systems.  Apple had to port it to PPC, they didn't have to port to Intel, as it already ran on Intel.  I'd be more inclined to believe that the PPC processor was never intended to be the long term target for Mac OS X, than I am to believe that at some point it didn't run on Intel.

Apple did have to port the original Mach Kernel-based OS to PPC
because it was originally OPENSTEP which ran on PA-RISC, SPARC, 680x0
and Intel.

I *don't* recall developers releases OS X that ran on Intel, but I
wasn't a registered student developer at the time, I joined ADC in
2000. I have OS X Rhapsody PR1 & 2 and those are both Mac PPC. I don't
have anything earlier but it probably isn't 'in the wild' anywhere I
could have obtained it.

I think, given it's origins, the Intel card was always in Apple's back
pocket as a contingency. What that story more likely refers to is
having a full-blooded working Intel version of OS X proper on an Intel
PC.

-- 
Mark Benson

http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson



From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Jun 11 11:26:18 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 09:26:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Jun 11,
 12 08:38:30 am"
Message-ID: <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>

> What it doesn't go into is all the bad blood between the NeXT, A/UX, and
> Classic OS groups (JK and Sokol were long time Apple Unix guys).

I shudder to ask the history. I know A/UX didn't make it into the PPC era,
but was an internecine dispute to blame, or just unwillingness to invest the
engineering time?

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- The world is not enough. ---------------------------------------------------


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 11:35:50 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 12:35:50 -0400
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <8400481012859501786@unknownmsgid>
References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
 <CAEOZr+2ZEMySqWxCXCEC19bNM=Vvu+JZmkcYYhBSxLbyEjtCEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8400481012859501786@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <3887B046-79D1-4DD0-BFED-77F39478F942@gmail.com>

On Jun 11, 2012, at 11:53, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11 Jun 2012, at 16:13, Jonathan Katz <jon at jonworld.com> wrote:
> 
>> I love the South Park reference, but I'm wondering why they kept NetInfo
>> around for so many years and only recently ditched it.
> 
> That was inheritance from NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP and you're right, it
> didn't really disappear until 10.4 or 10.5 IIRC. It was ugly, it was
> even worse in OPENSTEP!

As has been discussed somewhat recently on this list, I recall that the end of NetInfo coincided with the departure of Tevanian. Draw your own conclusions.

The only way I could ever think to describe NetInfo to outsiders was, "Think of Windows' registry, but worse."


- Dave


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Jun 11 11:54:10 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 09:54:10 -0700
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <p06240829cbfbc375ca35@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
 <p06240829cbfbc375ca35@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <4FD622B2.20007@bitsavers.org>

On 6/11/12 8:52 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> I'd be more inclined to believe that the PPC processor was never intended to be the long term target for Mac OS X, than I am to believe that at some point it didn't run on Intel.
>

http://www.paulbeard.org/wordpress/2002/08/31/think-different-and-keep-your-options-open/

The point of Marklar was to KEEP it working on Intel. It was a small group, since Intel was not in the
product roadmap for several more years. How early Intel based Mac hardware existed still hasn't been
made generally known. I suspect it existed in the portable world before desktops. As far as desktops
were concerened, all of the product groups I worked with through the end of 2004 were building only
with PPC.



From ittybittybytes at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 14:18:06 2012
From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 12:18:06 -0700
Subject: Shameless parts trafficking! part2
Message-ID: <CABnU=Ws=+LcBcSmNpRuv=HMZ9m78th13y=cPzLTNovqE5c09NA@mail.gmail.com>

More shed cleaning. Unibus boards plus pdp11/23 and an complete pro350
seller tcp1022 (me). As always mention to me your a list member and I'll
throw in a goodie or two.

cheers
tom


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 11 14:18:29 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 20:18:29 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <BLU157-W6CC12BE933E9CA3AA0563A2F10@phx.gbl> from "Kevin
 Reynolds" at Jun 9, 12 08:23:18 am
Message-ID: <m1SeA8J-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> 
> 
> I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 to=
>  the console of a microvax III (3900).
> 
> I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable=2C but there are a few flavors.=
>   At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D=2C howev=
> er its possible I ned H8575-E.
> 
> Someone know which one to purchase?  I have the BC16E cable required...

You're not going to like this, but what I would do is buy whichever 
adapter was easiest/cheapest to get. Plug that into the Microvax cable 
and then see what signals appear on the DB25. And then make up an dapter 
with a couple of DB25 conenctors to match it to the (DTE) port on the 
terminal, since DB25s are available just about anywhere...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 11 14:21:43 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 20:21:43 +0100 (BST)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com> from "David
 Riley" at Jun 10, 12 06:15:13 pm
Message-ID: <m1SeABQ-000J4WC@p850ug1>

> 
> On Jun 10, 2012, at 16:38, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
> 
> >> Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit wide semiconductor memory. ?
> > 
> > ECC? Is 21 bits enough to detect and correct any signle-bit error?
> 
> Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits, which 
> would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits). 

Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. Those can be 
in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct), 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 11 14:37:05 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 20:37:05 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <4FD53EA7.9090005@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 10,
 12 08:41:11 pm
Message-ID: <m1SeAQI-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 06/09/2012 10:23 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote:
> > I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 to the console of a microvax III (3900).
> > 
> > I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable, but there are a few flavors.  At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D, however its possible I ned H8575-E.
> > 
> > Someone know which one to purchase?  I have the BC16E cable required...
> 
>   There are lots of flavors.  Though Tony will probably blow a fuse when
> reading this suggestion, figuring out the absolute perfectly correct one

No, I won't, and you won't blow a (real) fuse, or an IC, or anythjing if 
you try it. One good thign abotu RS232 is that it is designed to 
withstand having signals shorted or mis-connected.

> is a complete waste of time...Get an MMJ adapter, whichever one you can
> find.  Plug it in.  If it doesn't talk, insert a null modem, and it will
> talk.  Simple as that.

I wouldn't quite do that. I'd grab one of thos little DB25-DB25 adapters 
with LEDs to monitor the most important signals. Plug that into the 
dapater first (with the adaptor conencted to the (powered-up) Microvax) 
and see which line (2 or 3) it's transmitting on. One will be driven, the 
otehr won't be. Then if it's driving pin 2, you need a null-modem.

I have solved many RS232 problems with little more than that.

> 
>   Be sure to disable flow control on the terminal.
> 
>   Again, I'm usually a purist to a fault, but where async serial is
> concerned, if the GOAL is to get it talking, do what I said above...if
> the goal is to spend two hours diving into the (unbelievably poor) RS232
> standard, and then figuring out your mix of vendors' creative
> interpretations of that standard, then figure out how to make it all

The worst thing I had to handle was an HP RS232 interface that correctly 
(as per the standard) did the half-duplex turnaround with the control 
lines. Problem is, almost nothing else does that...

> talk, then go get exactly what you need and plug it in...I've already
> gotten the OS halfway installed by that point.  I spent years agonizing
> and being anal-retentive over "which one is DTE, which is DCE" etc etc
> and just said "screw this, I want to BOOT the damn thing!"...and have
> never looked back. ;)

Most of the time I look of odiities in the interface (many printers put a 
busy/ready line on pin 11 for soem unknown reason), then use the LED 
monitor thing to see if it's a DTE or DCE. 99%+ of the time the cable I 
then wire works first time.

> 
>   If you have any sort of MicroVAXen, you should keep a few MMJ adapters
> of various flavors around anyway and if you have any sort of random
> non-PeeCee computers, you should have a handful of null modems, gender
> changers, DE9<->DB25 adapters, etc etc.  You will use them all the time,
> if you don't already.

The things I keep around are : 

PC/AT (DE9) to DB25 adapter

DB25 socket to DB25 socket null modem with the flow control lines looped
back -- that is 4-5 and 6-8-20 on each conenctor (not connected between
the ends), 2/3 crossed over between the connectors and 7 wired straight
through

DB25 socket to DB25 socket null modem with the flow control lines crossed 
over between the ends. That is 2 crossed with 3, 4 corssed with 5, 6 
strapepd to 8 on each conenctor and crossed with 20 (from the other 
conenctor) and 7 wired straight through

A universal gender cable. I've not seen this commerically, it's easy to 
make. It's a couple of feet of 25 way IDC cable with a DB25 plugn and a 
DB25 socket crimped on near each end (4 conenctors total). Does away with 
the need for gender changers

The LED monitoring adapter I mentioned.

An assortemt of conenctors, multicore cable and a soldering iron for the 
permanent job.

I do have a breakout box, adn even a datacomms tester. They are very 
useful -- when I need them -- but most of the time the above bits get the 
job done and are quicker.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 11 14:42:31 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 20:42:31 +0100 (BST)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC
In-Reply-To: <20120610173623.F32239@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 10,
 12 06:02:07 pm
Message-ID: <m1SeAVZ-000J4cC@p850ug1>

> 
> > > Is that PCJr?=A0  THAT cartridge will do you NO GOOD on the Mindset.
> 
> > =A0C: Obviously if it's not physically compatible. Give me some credit.
> > But it is at least cartridge BASIC, don't need to write my own. Shmott,=
>  no?
> 
> Unfortunately, a "BASIC cartridge" could be for adding BASIC to a
> computer, OR could be for supplementing a BASIC that is built-in, much
> like BASICA being a supplement to the ROM BASIC, rather than stand-alone.
> Of course SOME companies, such as Compaq, renamed their GW-BASIC to
> BASICA.COM "for compatability with legacy batch files"

IIRC, th IBM PCjr has BASIC in ROM, so the cartridge is quitel ikely to 
be BASIC extensions, not the full interpretter.

> > know why you have to continually insult me. Sheesh. =A0
> 
> I will stop insulting you as soon as there is any indication that you
> already know what we are talking about.  (such as that paragraph, or the

It is _very_ difficult to judge somebody's knowledge nad experience based 
on a few postings. Sure you might have been proggraming since the days of 
the EDSAC, you might be able to solder hup a handful of chips from the 
juckbox and have everythig nwork first tiem, never lookig nat a databook. 
Or you might be soembody who is starting out and wants to learn. 

My view is that it's better to give too mcuh information in the reply 
than too little, even if I am pointing something out that you've known 
for 20 years. It is not intended as an insult. And having known 'Grumpy 
old Fred' fro many years here, I don't think he's going to deliberately 
isnult somebody asking sensible questions.

-tony



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 15:23:26 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 16:23:26 -0400
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <4FD53EA7.9090005@neurotica.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <BLU157-W6CC12BE933E9CA3AA0563A2F10@phx.gbl> <4FD53EA7.9090005@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <1BA44B06-C896-490C-A209-BA9CAFA6F6EE@gmail.com>

On Jun 10, 2012, at 8:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 06/09/2012 10:23 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote:
>> I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 to the console of a microvax III (3900).
>> 
>> I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable, but there are a few flavors.  At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D, however its possible I ned H8575-E.
>> 
>> Someone know which one to purchase?  I have the BC16E cable required...
> 
>  There are lots of flavors.  Though Tony will probably blow a fuse when
> reading this suggestion, figuring out the absolute perfectly correct one
> is a complete waste of time...Get an MMJ adapter, whichever one you can
> find.  Plug it in.  If it doesn't talk, insert a null modem, and it will
> talk.  Simple as that.

Well, of course, if you want to be a purist about it you can always
replace the unwieldy mess with the correct cable later, when people
are actually going to *see* it.  Getting it running is hardly the
time to be a stickler unless it's actually going to damage something.


- Dave




From fast79ta at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 11 15:35:31 2012
From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 14:35:31 -0600
Subject: Old fiujitsu scanner
Message-ID: <003701cd4811$bf44e660$3dceb320$@yahoo.com>


I've acquired on old enterprise/small office 11x17 ADF scanner. Came with
everything except a cable, and any sort of support. I've tried signing up
for the KoFax forums, but seems to be dead. Have to wait for an admin to
approve me, and it's been a couple weeks now with no action.

Its a fujitsu M3097DE, with a first generation KoFax VRS card in it. The
card is a Fujitsu CG01000-440201 (sticker) or kofax 13000125-000 (PCB
silkscreen)

It also came with an KoFax Adrenaline 650i PCI SCSI Scanner card, which I
have it on good authority, was used with the scanner.

The card has a HD68 external scsi on it, and the scanner has 3 connections
(2 for rs232 control, and video. These are supposedly disabled with the 3rd
party card installed), and one for the VRS card (which is DB37).

As I understand it, it was a package offered by fujitsu. But, can't find
really any info on it at all. Especially, what kind of cable it took.

Anyone have any familiarity with such a beasty? It would be great for
scanning a lot of my old documentation, because it does two sides at once,
200 dpi, grey scale.

Thanks



From fast79ta at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 11 15:35:31 2012
From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 14:35:31 -0600
Subject: Old fiujitsu scanner
Message-ID: <003701cd4811$bf44e660$3dceb320$@yahoo.com>


I've acquired on old enterprise/small office 11x17 ADF scanner. Came with
everything except a cable, and any sort of support. I've tried signing up
for the KoFax forums, but seems to be dead. Have to wait for an admin to
approve me, and it's been a couple weeks now with no action.

Its a fujitsu M3097DE, with a first generation KoFax VRS card in it. The
card is a Fujitsu CG01000-440201 (sticker) or kofax 13000125-000 (PCB
silkscreen)

It also came with an KoFax Adrenaline 650i PCI SCSI Scanner card, which I
have it on good authority, was used with the scanner.

The card has a HD68 external scsi on it, and the scanner has 3 connections
(2 for rs232 control, and video. These are supposedly disabled with the 3rd
party card installed), and one for the VRS card (which is DB37).

As I understand it, it was a package offered by fujitsu. But, can't find
really any info on it at all. Especially, what kind of cable it took.

Anyone have any familiarity with such a beasty? It would be great for
scanning a lot of my old documentation, because it does two sides at once,
200 dpi, grey scale.

Thanks



From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 16:12:00 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 22:12:00 +0100
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 June 2012 17:26, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
>> What it doesn't go into is all the bad blood between the NeXT, A/UX, and
>> Classic OS groups (JK and Sokol were long time Apple Unix guys).
>
> I shudder to ask the history. I know A/UX didn't make it into the PPC era,
> but was an internecine dispute to blame, or just unwillingness to invest the
> engineering time?

I thought it was the latter.

My understanding, in brief, was that A/UX was only ever created to
tick the POSIX box on the US military procurement form. I thought it
was a bit of a surprise to Apple that it did as well as it did, and I
suspect it never made a profit.

What is odd to me is that, looking back from the OS X era, A/UX would
have been a really obvious successor to classic MacOS, if only it had
been ported to from 68K to PPC. But I never spotted it at the time,
and nor did Apple. Given all the expensive protracted
commercially-suicidal flailing around with Pink, Taligent, Copland and
all that, this seems really strange.

But there Apple was: it needed a new OS with a degree of MacOS
compatibility but with the features its rivals were developing and
out-competing it with: pre-emptive multitasking, good fast virtual
memory, memory protection, better security, better networking,
especially support for industry-standard stuff like TCP/IP.

And yet it owned an OS like this, internally-developed, based on Unix
but with a MacOS GUI and the ability to run MacOS apps. It just ran on
the old chip, not the new one.

Instead, there was years of trying to develop something new, or
something with IBM, or both, or buying in Be, or buying in NeXT...

Now, in the end, no argument, buying NeXT was the right thing to do
and a very good move... but looking back it seems really odd that they
didn't try A/UX. They even licenced in AIX for some machines but not
their own in-house Unix.

So, yes, perhaps there was some kind of company politics that made it
unacceptable...

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From jon at jonworld.com  Mon Jun 11 16:33:07 2012
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:33:07 -0400
Subject: Old fiujitsu scanner
In-Reply-To: <003701cd4811$bf44e660$3dceb320$@yahoo.com>
References: <003701cd4811$bf44e660$3dceb320$@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+22LyNiUCDNs2j945taPff7ptMfDByzG+OnMNwmD=cxNw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Joe <fast79ta at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> I've acquired on old enterprise/small office 11x17 ADF scanner. Came with
> everything except a cable, and any sort of support. I've tried signing up
> for the KoFax forums, but seems to be dead. Have to wait for an admin to
>

If it does 68 pin SCSI I wonder if it will do generic TWAIN over the SCSI
bus? It may be worth it to plug it together and see?


From legalize at xmission.com  Mon Jun 11 16:37:14 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 15:37:14 -0600
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <4FD622B2.20007@bitsavers.org>
References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
 <p06240829cbfbc375ca35@[192.168.1.199]> <4FD622B2.20007@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <E1SeCIU-0008UT-Sy@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FD622B2.20007 at bitsavers.org>,
    Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> writes:

> http://www.paulbeard.org/wordpress/2002/08/31/think-different-and-keep-your-o
ptions-open/

This URL seems to be unreachable...
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 16:38:14 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 14:38:14 -0700
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <BLU157-W6CC12BE933E9CA3AA0563A2F10@phx.gbl>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <BLU157-W6CC12BE933E9CA3AA0563A2F10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJ51DaOPccTwez5MJy+Evv1wzmeg9yUm27KzaLKCW1eXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Kevin Reynolds <tpresence at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 to the console of a microvax III (3900).
>
> I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable, but there are a few flavors. ?At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D, however its possible I ned H8575-E.
>
> Someone know which one to purchase? ?I have the BC16E cable required...
>
> Kevin
>

Here are some helpful references:

http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/padapters.html
http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/dec-mmj.html



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Jun 11 16:43:49 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:43:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <m1SeABQ-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SeABQ-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201206112143.RAA16343@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits, which
>> would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits).
> Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct.  Those
> can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct),

No, it doesn't.  See Wikipedia's Hamming code page (asking for SECDED
redirects to it) for a brief treatment of the subject, or any of many
more detailed treatments of coding theory for more.

					Mouse


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Jun 11 16:52:02 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 14:52:02 -0700
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <E1SeCIU-0008UT-Sy@shell.xmission.com>
References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
 <p06240829cbfbc375ca35@[192.168.1.199]> <4FD622B2.20007@bitsavers.org>
 <E1SeCIU-0008UT-Sy@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4FD66882.10309@bitsavers.org>

On 6/11/12 2:37 PM, Richard wrote:
> In article<4FD622B2.20007 at bitsavers.org>,
>      Al Kossow<aek at bitsavers.org>  writes:
>
>> http://www.paulbeard.org/wordpress/2002/08/31/think-different-and-keep-your-o
> ptions-open/
>
> This URL seems to be unreachable...

here is the entire entry, from August 31, 2002

think different, and keep your options open

Apple Keeps x86 Torch Lit with ?Marklar?

Sources said more than a dozen software engineers are tasked to Marklar, and the company?s mainstream Mac OS X team is regularly asked to modify code to address bugs that crop up when compiling the OS 
for x86. Build numbers keep pace with those of their pre-release PowerPC counterparts; for example, Apple is internally running a complete, x86-compatible version of Jaguar, a k a Mac OS X 10.2, which 
shipped last week.

Wade spotted this one.




From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 17:01:32 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:01:32 +0100
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <E1SeCIU-0008UT-Sy@shell.xmission.com>
References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
 <p06240829cbfbc375ca35@192.168.1.199>
 <4FD622B2.20007@bitsavers.org>
 <E1SeCIU-0008UT-Sy@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFg4CgDv8S8X_gud4FALrSHezBkfkiH0j89CCLS0Z96AQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 June 2012 22:37, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>
>> http://www.paulbeard.org/wordpress/2002/08/31/think-different-and-keep-your-o
> ptions-open/
>
> This URL seems to be unreachable...

Works for me. It's short and says:

?
A CRANK?S PROGRESS
?THE ART OF WRITING IS THE ART OF DISCOVERING WHAT YOU BELIEVE.??
GUSTAVE FLAUBERT
Homeband names I would like to see - ideas, various - 25, more or less
- A True Story of hubris and revenge, unlike the HOPA with the white
board - When two extremes bump into each other - zeitgeist: what?s on
your collective mind - greatest hits

think different, and keep your options open

Apple Keeps x86 Torch Lit with ?Marklar?
[http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,496270,00.asp]

Sources said more than a dozen software engineers are tasked to
Marklar, and the company?s mainstream Mac OS X team is regularly asked
to modify code to address bugs that crop up when compiling the OS for
x86. Build numbers keep pace with those of their pre-release PowerPC
counterparts; for example, Apple is internally running a complete,
x86-compatible version of Jaguar, a.k.a. Mac OS X 10.2, which shipped
last week.

Wade [http://naveja.net/] spotted this one.

Share this: Share
This was written by paul. Posted on Saturday, August 31, 2002, at
10:38 AM. Filed under the value of X. Bookmark the permalink. Follow
comments here with the RSS feed.	 Both comments and trackbacks are
currently closed.
? keeping them honest RedHat == Redmond? ?
? 2012 ADMIN ADMIN ? THANKS, WORDPRESS. ? VERYPLAINTXT THEME BY SCOTT.
? IT'S NICE XHTML & CSS.
?

Sadly the link from the title now points to a different story:
HP TouchPad Needs 6 to 8 Weeks for Additional Shipments
[http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-Wireless/HP-TouchPad-Needs-68-Weeks-for-Additional-Shipments-142584/]

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 17:02:18 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:02:18 +0100
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFg4CgDv8S8X_gud4FALrSHezBkfkiH0j89CCLS0Z96AQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
 <p06240829cbfbc375ca35@192.168.1.199>
 <4FD622B2.20007@bitsavers.org>
 <E1SeCIU-0008UT-Sy@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAMTenCFg4CgDv8S8X_gud4FALrSHezBkfkiH0j89CCLS0Z96AQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE92vEKA--j_d_MCiBMs6X4OuTRER8P=x8tJB3_M1075g@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 June 2012 23:01, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sadly the link from the title now points to a different story:

Nix that. Found the original:
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Apple/Apple-Keeps-x86-Torch-Lit-with-Marklar/

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Jun 11 17:02:35 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 15:02:35 -0700
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <m1SeABQ-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com> from "David
 Riley" at Jun 10, 12 06:15:13 pm, <m1SeABQ-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FD6088B.3801.178C08C@cclist.sydex.com>

On 11 Jun 2012 at 20:21, Tony Duell wrote:

> Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. Those
> can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct), 

Not necessarily--they're included in the Hamming distance, so a 
single error, even in the syndrome bits can be corrected.

A 21 bit word for a 16 bit word will detect all single-bit errors but 
a pure Hamming SECDED would require 22 bits (4 SEC + 1 added parity).

 However, there exist other codes with SECDED properties--Hsiao codes-
-that will allow for SECDED in (21:16).    I believe that the popular 
(72:64) SECDED code is a shortened Hamming code.  

--Chuck



From fast79ta at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 11 17:11:56 2012
From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 16:11:56 -0600
Subject: Old fiujitsu scanner
In-Reply-To: <CAEOZr+22LyNiUCDNs2j945taPff7ptMfDByzG+OnMNwmD=cxNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003701cd4811$bf44e660$3dceb320$@yahoo.com>
 <CAEOZr+22LyNiUCDNs2j945taPff7ptMfDByzG+OnMNwmD=cxNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008e01cd481f$37ab4650$a701d2f0$@yahoo.com>

The card side is HD68 scsi, the scanner end is DB37 (not even centronics
50pin), so I have no idea what the wiring would be in between the two. :-(  

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Jonathan Katz
Sent: June-11-12 3:33 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Old fiujitsu scanner

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Joe <fast79ta at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> I've acquired on old enterprise/small office 11x17 ADF scanner. Came 
> with everything except a cable, and any sort of support. I've tried 
> signing up for the KoFax forums, but seems to be dead. Have to wait 
> for an admin to
>

If it does 68 pin SCSI I wonder if it will do generic TWAIN over the SCSI
bus? It may be worth it to plug it together and see?



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Jun 11 17:20:13 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 15:20:13 -0700
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFg4CgDv8S8X_gud4FALrSHezBkfkiH0j89CCLS0Z96AQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>,
 <E1SeCIU-0008UT-Sy@shell.xmission.com>,
 <CAMTenCFg4CgDv8S8X_gud4FALrSHezBkfkiH0j89CCLS0Z96AQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD60CAD.18149.188E740@cclist.sydex.com>

On 11 Jun 2012 at 23:01, Liam Proven wrote:

> Sadly the link from the title now points to a different story:
> HP TouchPad Needs 6 to 8 Weeks for Additional Shipments
> [http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-Wireless/HP-TouchPad-Needs-68-Wee
> ks-for-Additional-Shipments-142584/]

Comes up for me on:

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Apple/Apple-Keeps-x86-Torch-Lit-with-
Marklar/

Looks like they just moved it.

--Chuck



From teoz at neo.rr.com  Mon Jun 11 17:26:59 2012
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 18:26:59 -0400
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <BLU157-W6CC12BE933E9CA3AA0563A2F10@phx.gbl>
 <CAM2UOwJ51DaOPccTwez5MJy+Evv1wzmeg9yUm27KzaLKCW1eXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2A3D81649C8644C9989A910DC0C12CEB@hd2600xt6a04f7>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glen Slick" <glen.slick at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port


> On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 7:23 AM, Kevin Reynolds <tpresence at hotmail.com> 
> wrote:
>>
>> I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 
>> to the console of a microvax III (3900).
>>
>> I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable, but there are a few flavors. 
>> At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D, however 
>> its possible I ned H8575-E.
>>
>> Someone know which one to purchase? I have the BC16E cable required...
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>
> Here are some helpful references:
>
> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/padapters.html
> http://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/dec-mmj.html
>

Nice links, I have one of the H8571-HP adapters which is listed. What about 
the RJ45 ethernet to MJJ adapters (I have one Amphenol 482560001)?



From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Jun 11 17:30:10 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 15:30:10 -0700
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>

On 6/11/12 2:12 PM, Liam Proven wrote:

> What is odd to me is that, looking back from the OS X era, A/UX would
> have been a really obvious successor to classic MacOS, if only it had
> been ported to from 68K to PPC. But I never spotted it at the time,
> and nor did Apple. Given all the expensive protracted
> commercially-suicidal flailing around with Pink, Taligent, Copland and
> all that, this seems really strange.
>

The switch from Carbon to Cocoa was much more significant than the change
to the underlying OS. Pink, et. al. never got any traction because of the
demand to keep old apps and APIs working. OS X accelerated the rate at
which old software was abandoned for something new and shiny. This was not
even considered acceptable before Jobs came back. A ported A/UX would have
essentially looked like Classic, with a lot of hardware driver incompatibilities
and not a whole lot of perceivable end-user improvements. Making the OS
switch with a substantially different GUI offered something to users in
return for a lot of backwards incompatibilities.

The complete disinterest inside of Apple for anything having to do with
Mach or Unix was something I witnessed through all my time there before
1997. There were two versions of Mach (68K done in by ATG Cambridge and
later Morin's MacMach) that were around. These was considered as pretty
insignificant distractions from the work of getting the next set of features
or a new CPU supported into OS(7,8,9). Pink isolated themselves from the
rest of Apple software and put the nails solidly into their own coffins.


The A/UX group were always outsiders. They lived off on
Bubb Road, and eventually moved to DeAnza 3 as part of the Workgroup Server
(ie. Shiner) folks in the mid-90's.



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 18:19:28 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 00:19:28 +0100
Subject: Old fiujitsu scanner
In-Reply-To: <003701cd4811$bf44e660$3dceb320$@yahoo.com>
References: <003701cd4811$bf44e660$3dceb320$@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD67D00.2090908@gmail.com>

On 11/06/2012 21:35, Joe wrote:
> I've acquired on old enterprise/small office 11x17 ADF scanner. Came with
> everything except a cable, and any sort of support. I've tried signing up
> for the KoFax forums, but seems to be dead. Have to wait for an admin to
> approve me, and it's been a couple weeks now with no action.
>
> Its a fujitsu M3097DE, with a first generation KoFax VRS card in it. The
> card is a Fujitsu CG01000-440201 (sticker) or kofax 13000125-000 (PCB
> silkscreen)
>
> It also came with an KoFax Adrenaline 650i PCI SCSI Scanner card, which I
> have it on good authority, was used with the scanner.
>
> The card has a HD68 external scsi on it, and the scanner has 3 connections
> (2 for rs232 control, and video. These are supposedly disabled with the 3rd
> party card installed), and one for the VRS card (which is DB37).
>
> As I understand it, it was a package offered by fujitsu. But, can't find
> really any info on it at all. Especially, what kind of cable it took.
>
> Anyone have any familiarity with such a beasty? It would be great for
> scanning a lot of my old documentation, because it does two sides at once,
> 200 dpi, grey scale.
>
> Thanks
>
We use similar stuff to these where I work. Drop me an e-mail off list 
and I'll see if I can find any docs...

-- 
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 19:04:27 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:04:27 -0700
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <2A3D81649C8644C9989A910DC0C12CEB@hd2600xt6a04f7>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <BLU157-W6CC12BE933E9CA3AA0563A2F10@phx.gbl>
 <CAM2UOwJ51DaOPccTwez5MJy+Evv1wzmeg9yUm27KzaLKCW1eXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2A3D81649C8644C9989A910DC0C12CEB@hd2600xt6a04f7>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+rnNcapAkOU-7wVMt4cn4xZcj0UwwaCzj70afK-fSqmA@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 11, 2012 3:30 PM, "TeoZ" <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Nice links, I have one of the H8571-HP adapters which is listed. What
about the RJ45 ethernet to MJJ adapters (I have one Amphenol 482560001)?
>

Is that a coupler that you plug an MMJ cable plug in one end an an RJ45
cable plug in the other?


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 19:21:42 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 01:21:42 +0100
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 June 2012 23:30, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>
> The switch from Carbon to Cocoa was much more significant than the change
> to the underlying OS. Pink, et. al. never got any traction because of the
> demand to keep old apps and APIs working. OS X accelerated the rate at
> which old software was abandoned for something new and shiny. This was not
> even considered acceptable before Jobs came back. A ported A/UX would have
> essentially looked like Classic, with a lot of hardware driver
> incompatibilities
> and not a whole lot of perceivable end-user improvements. Making the OS
> switch with a substantially different GUI offered something to users in
> return for a lot of backwards incompatibilities.
>
> The complete disinterest inside of Apple for anything having to do with
> Mach or Unix was something I witnessed through all my time there before
> 1997. There were two versions of Mach (68K done in by ATG Cambridge and
> later Morin's MacMach) that were around. These was considered as pretty
> insignificant distractions from the work of getting the next set of features
> or a new CPU supported into OS(7,8,9). Pink isolated themselves from the
> rest of Apple software and put the nails solidly into their own coffins.
>
> The A/UX group were always outsiders. They lived off on
> Bubb Road, and eventually moved to DeAnza 3 as part of the Workgroup Server
> (ie. Shiner) folks in the mid-90's.

TFTI - interesting stuff.

But, not wishing to disagree, merely seeking clarification here...

I have never run A/UX. If I can find the money to pay Tony D to fix my
SE/30 and upgrade it, I want to try it, but I don't think that's
likely in the near future. So I am speaking from no practical
experience here, but...

AIUI, it /did/ offer some compatibility with mainstream Mac apps. I
think I have seen screenshots of it running MS Word, for instance. How
good that compatibility was, I don't know.

But surely, the same reasons that made it feasible to develop and
maintain for 7 years and 3 major versions would have still applied on
PowerPC, no?

It seems to me that there must be some reason why it didn't happen, as
with hindsight, it just seems a very obvious move. Apple knew it
needed a more modern, real multitasking OS to rival Win9x and NT, and
it needed to be to some degree MacOS-compatible - and yet, it had one,
sitting there.

It just seems incomprehensibly strange.

I mean, I think that what eventually happened was right and good. The
NeXT deal got Jobs back, OS X had a fresh new look, it is for all its
sins a very advanced Unix, and it has some of the best dev tools there
were. All these were important. Perhaps it would never have happened
if Apple had made A/UX 4 for PPC its new OS, and as a result, Apple
would be a fading memory now.

So in a way, it's a good thing it /didn't/ happen. But the reason sure
as hell was not foresight!

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Jun 11 19:30:47 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 17:30:47 -0700
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <4147706669824788312@unknownmsgid>
References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
 <p06240829cbfbc375ca35@[192.168.1.199]> <4147706669824788312@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <p06240802cbfc327fd038@[192.168.1.199]>

At 5:23 PM +0100 6/11/12, Mark Benson wrote:
>On 11 Jun 2012, at 17:00, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
>
>>  One thing that I find suspicious about this is that the first few 
>>Developers releases for Mac OS X ran on Intel-based systems.  Apple 
>>had to port it to PPC, they didn't have to port to Intel, as it 
>>already ran on Intel.  I'd be more inclined to believe that the PPC 
>>processor was never intended to be the long term target for Mac OS 
>>X, than I am to believe that at some point it didn't run on Intel.
>
>Apple did have to port the original Mach Kernel-based OS to PPC
>because it was originally OPENSTEP which ran on PA-RISC, SPARC, 680x0
>and Intel.

The had to port more than just the Mach Microkernel.  I forget at 
which point they changed the UNIX layer to be based on FreeBSD.  As 
has been pointed out, the unfortunately chose to port the Net Info 
abomination.

>I *don't* recall developers releases OS X that ran on Intel, but I
>wasn't a registered student developer at the time, I joined ADC in
>2000. I have OS X Rhapsody PR1 & 2 and those are both Mac PPC. I don't
>have anything earlier but it probably isn't 'in the wild' anywhere I
>could have obtained it.

I ceased to be a registered developer around 2001/2002 time frame (I 
joined in '95), as I'd gotten married and had more important things 
to spend my money on. :-)

Rather than trying to cast my mind back too far, here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhapsody_%28operating_system%29

The article seems to fail to mention "Prelude to Rhapsody", which was 
sent out to developers, and was basically OPENSTEP 4.2.  Many of the 
Mac developers of that time, also got ahold of NeXT hardware.  I used 
a Pentium 133Mhz system I built specifically to run Prelude.

IIRC, while I've owned a copy of every version of Mac OS X except 
10.7, I didn't actually start using it until just before 10.3 was 
released.  At that time I was on an original G4/450AGP (2nd one sold 
in this area, and it came with a special version of System 8.6 rather 
than Mac OS 9).  I had to replace the video card to get Mac OS X to 
be usable on that system.

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Jun 11 19:42:13 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 20:42:13 -0400
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <3887B046-79D1-4DD0-BFED-77F39478F942@gmail.com>
References: <201206111453.q5BErO8i14155852@floodgap.com>
 <CAEOZr+2ZEMySqWxCXCEC19bNM=Vvu+JZmkcYYhBSxLbyEjtCEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8400481012859501786@unknownmsgid>
 <3887B046-79D1-4DD0-BFED-77F39478F942@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD69065.4030200@neurotica.com>

On 06/11/2012 12:35 PM, David Riley wrote:
>>> I love the South Park reference, but I'm wondering why they kept NetInfo
>>> around for so many years and only recently ditched it.
>>
>> That was inheritance from NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP and you're right, it
>> didn't really disappear until 10.4 or 10.5 IIRC. It was ugly, it was
>> even worse in OPENSTEP!
> 
> As has been discussed somewhat recently on this list, I recall that the end of NetInfo coincided with the departure of Tevanian. Draw your own conclusions.

  He was always its most outspoken proponent, in everything I ever saw
in the technical media.

  Actually, I think he was its ONLY proponent.  I hated it from the
NeXTSTEP days; it was a terrible idea then too.

          -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Jun 11 20:08:02 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 21:08:02 -0400
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <m1SeAQI-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SeAQI-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FD69672.1090105@neurotica.com>

On 06/11/2012 03:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>
>> On 06/09/2012 10:23 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote:
>>> I'm trying to figure out which adapter I should get to attach my wyse 60 to the console of a microvax III (3900).
>>>
>>> I know I need a MMJ jack to DB25 male cable, but there are a few flavors.  At first glance it appears that I either need H8571-D or H8575-D, however its possible I ned H8575-E.
>>>
>>> Someone know which one to purchase?  I have the BC16E cable required...
>>
>>   There are lots of flavors.  Though Tony will probably blow a fuse when
>> reading this suggestion, figuring out the absolute perfectly correct one
> 
> No, I won't, and you won't blow a (real) fuse, or an IC, or anythjing if 
> you try it. One good thign abotu RS232 is that it is designed to 
> withstand having signals shorted or mis-connected.
> 
>> is a complete waste of time...Get an MMJ adapter, whichever one you can
>> find.  Plug it in.  If it doesn't talk, insert a null modem, and it will
>> talk.  Simple as that.
> 
> I wouldn't quite do that. I'd grab one of thos little DB25-DB25 adapters 
> with LEDs to monitor the most important signals. Plug that into the 
> dapater first (with the adaptor conencted to the (powered-up) Microvax) 
> and see which line (2 or 3) it's transmitting on. One will be driven, the 
> otehr won't be. Then if it's driving pin 2, you need a null-modem.
> 
> I have solved many RS232 problems with little more than that.

  Yes!  That's exactly what I do, but I don't recommend it anymore
because the response is usually "I don't have one of those things with
LEDs and they're so EXXPEEENNSSIIVEE!!"  (they're like ten
bucks...cheapasses)  But yes, that works perfectly.  Something needs to
be driving TxD, and something needs to be driving RxD.  Which is which,
and what state they're in, is unimportant if the goal is to get it talking.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Mon Jun 11 20:16:17 2012
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 21:16:17 -0400
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <BLU157-W6CC12BE933E9CA3AA0563A2F10@phx.gbl>
 <CAM2UOwJ51DaOPccTwez5MJy+Evv1wzmeg9yUm27KzaLKCW1eXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <2A3D81649C8644C9989A910DC0C12CEB@hd2600xt6a04f7>
 <CAM2UOw+rnNcapAkOU-7wVMt4cn4xZcj0UwwaCzj70afK-fSqmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6A8CB411B742460281B9E7D97986B351@hd2600xt6a04f7>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glen Slick" <glen.slick at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port


> On Jun 11, 2012 3:30 PM, "TeoZ" <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> Nice links, I have one of the H8571-HP adapters which is listed. What
> about the RJ45 ethernet to MJJ adapters (I have one Amphenol 482560001)?
>>
>
> Is that a coupler that you plug an MMJ cable plug in one end an an RJ45
> cable plug in the other?

It has a female socket for the MMJ plug on one end and a male RJ45 plug 
molded into the other end.

DEC and Digital Equipment

Mfg Part Number 482560001

Product Description Part Number: 482560001 New, Used, Refurbished, and 
Repair of AMPHENOL RJ45-M TO MMJ-F ADAPT.



From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Jun 11 20:33:38 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 18:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Jun 11,
 12 03:30:10 pm"
Message-ID: <201206120133.q5C1XcgK14811362@floodgap.com>

> The A/UX group were always outsiders. They lived off on
> Bubb Road, and eventually moved to DeAnza 3 as part of the Workgroup Server
> (ie. Shiner) folks in the mid-90's.

I didn't realize the Shiner guys came from the A/UX group, though it makes
sense a little. Still, I assume AIX was basically handed to them and it was
just a matter of doing the port for the hardware -- or was this part of the
earlier NetWare incarnation?

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- require "std_disclaimer.pl"; -----------------------------------------------


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Jun 11 21:12:36 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 19:12:36 -0700
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>

On 6/11/12 5:21 PM, Liam Proven wrote:

> But surely, the same reasons that made it feasible to develop and
> maintain for 7 years and 3 major versions would have still applied on
> PowerPC, no?
>

Well, there was the problem of no toolchain for PowerPC. That wasn't
a problem if they switched to AIX. A/UX was also based on Unisoft System
V, which may have had licensing problems in volume, but I have no real
knowledge of that. The only compiler people Apple had at the time were in
the MPW group, and they would have had their hands full with MacOS tools
which used a completely different object format (PEF).

> It seems to me that there must be some reason why it didn't happen, as
> with hindsight, it just seems a very obvious move. Apple knew it
> needed a more modern, real multitasking OS to rival Win9x and NT, and
> it needed to be to some degree MacOS-compatible - and yet, it had one,
> sitting there.
>
> It just seems incomprehensibly strange.
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_%28operating_system%29

It is very difficult to explain what was going on if you weren't in the
middle of it, but that Wikipedia article gives you a pretty good idea of
how dysfunctional and out of control Apple was in the 90's. Remember,
this is the same company that let someone develop "Graphing Calculator"
and let them keep their office when they didn't even WORK for Apple any
more.

Note that there is NO mention of A/UX or Unix anywhere in there. As far
as anyone was concerned, Unix didn't exist. If it was brought up as an
alternative, it was immediately dismissed as not useful as a basis for
the Mac OS, either because of size, or perceived performance.






From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Jun 11 22:13:47 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:13:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <m1SeAQI-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SeAQI-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201206120313.XAA18854@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> I do have a breakout box, adn even a datacomms tester.  They are very
> useful -- when I need them -- but most of the time the above bits get
> the job done and are quicker.

There have even been times when I've made serial connections work with
bits of spare wire shoved into DB25S and DE9S connectors.  For that you
need gender benders at most. :)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From scott.m.18 at atsgate.com  Mon Jun 11 22:50:15 2012
From: scott.m.18 at atsgate.com (Scott M)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 21:50:15 -0600
Subject: A Teletype Model 43 and a 1938 Army dual teletype with paper tapes
 available.
Message-ID: <009e01cd484e$7a0c0730$6e241590$@m.18@atsgate.com>

I was at a storage unit this evening, picking up yet another couple of 
free DEC machines.  The guy unloading the machines also had a couple of 
teletypes.  One was a pretty standard Model 43 (all plastic case). 
It had a 300 baud interface, not serial port.  He said he knows it works 
because he ran it to a computer at 300 baud that then converted the 
signal to serial so that it could communicate "normally".  He said the 
300 baud interface makes it more of a pain, but more cool at the same 
time.  He is looking to unload it right away.  The other teletype was 
all metal, built into a small table, had an Army Corps label, a tape 
read/writer?, a box of blank "new" paper tapes on spools about 5/8 inch 
wide.  Also a second auxiliary? teletype unit was built into a very 
small adjacent table.  This one had several "new" rolls of paper approx 
12 inches wide.  The secondary teletype had keys too, but I am thinking 
the primary with the paper tape was used for input and the secondary 
was used for output.  The guy said it was used with the MARS system. 
There was an interface box too, probably to connect to a ham radio, 
but the radio was not present.  The guy said he got it from a retired 
Air Force General who had kept it as a souvenir.  He said he has all the 
original manuals that go with it at home.  He said it is complete and 
reportedly working.  The only thing wrong was some of the plastic covers 
on the individual keyboard keys had deteriorated and were loose. 
However considering the year, 1938, it was in remarkably good shape. 
The dry Colorado air is pretty easy on most equipment, and this was 
yet another example of that. 
He said cannot ship it because it is too heavy, but I know that places 
like "The UPS Store" can pickup, package, and ship items like this.  
There is a UPS Store nearby that might be able to do the job.  (I had 
a 100+ lb IBM machine shipped this way a few years ago for about $200). 
Anyway, the guy is Matt.  I am not going to post his email address, but 
if you want to contact him, email me and I will forward your email to 
him.  I can also give you contact info for the nearby UPS Store.  Matt 
took some pictures with his smartphone for me, and once he emails those, 
I will put them on a website. 
 
Scott 
 




From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Jun 11 23:19:01 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 21:19:01 -0700
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <p06240807cbfc72e2e78d@[192.168.1.199]>

At 7:12 PM -0700 6/11/12, Al Kossow wrote:
>Note that there is NO mention of A/UX or Unix anywhere in there. As far
>as anyone was concerned, Unix didn't exist. If it was brought up as an
>alternative, it was immediately dismissed as not useful as a basis for
>the Mac OS, either because of size, or perceived performance.

If size and performance could have been a consideration, I have to 
wonder if they were influenced by the B2 compliant version of A/UX. 
It's a miracle that it didn't make me hate UNIX as it was the first 
UNIX variant I used (it did make me hate ACL's).  It's probably a 
good thing that a couple days later I downloaded Linux 0.12 to try on 
my 486/33.

Zane


-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Mon Jun 11 23:32:20 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 06:32:20 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <4FD6088B.3801.178C08C@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com>
 <m1SeABQ-000J4WC@p850ug1> <4FD6088B.3801.178C08C@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5T7eAtk5MsrseP3rfb0DQbOyBJUmkaX1Uvn_t8DJ5i_wg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. Those
>> can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct),
>
> Not necessarily--they're included in the Hamming distance, so a
> single error, even in the syndrome bits can be corrected.
>
> A 21 bit word for a 16 bit word will detect all single-bit errors but
> a pure Hamming SECDED would require 22 bits (4 SEC + 1 added parity).
>
> ?However, there exist other codes with SECDED properties--Hsiao codes-
> -that will allow for SECDED in (21:16). ? ?I believe that the popular
> (72:64) SECDED code is a shortened Hamming code.


Time to get the terminology and math straight. Please forgive me if I
sound pedantic:

(31,26) (26 data bits + 5 parity bits) is a Hamming code. We only need
16 data bits, so we use (21,16), which is called a truncated Hamming
code. It's capable of single-bit error correction, but not capable of
double-bit error detection (or, more precisely, a double-bit error is
seen as an error in a third bit, which then gets "corrected", so a
double-bit error gets turned into a triple-bit error!).

By adding an extra parity bit to the Hamming code, you get an extended
truncated Hamming code (22,16). Extended Hamming is a SECDED code.

Hsiao code is another SECDED code. It uses the same number of bits as
an extended truncated Hamming code, but is easier to implement in
silicon.

A (72,64) SECDED code could be extended truncated Hamming or Hsiao.
SECDED can not be done with less bits (unless you increase the word
size of course).


Here's an example of a (21,16) truncated Hamming code:

  0 000 1111010 11010
---------------------
1 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 - p1
=00  00  11  10  10   - p2
 = 1000    1010    10 - p3
   =   11111010       - p4
       =       111010 - p5
---------------=-----
100100011111010111010


Cheers,

Camiel



From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Mon Jun 11 23:50:07 2012
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 06:50:07 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5T7eAtk5MsrseP3rfb0DQbOyBJUmkaX1Uvn_t8DJ5i_wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com>
 <m1SeABQ-000J4WC@p850ug1> <4FD6088B.3801.178C08C@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CA+0-H5T7eAtk5MsrseP3rfb0DQbOyBJUmkaX1Uvn_t8DJ5i_wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD6CA7F.5010308@bluewin.ch>



It might have a sound technical reason to provide error-correcting RAM,
but only Philips would ignore the financial consequences of having to provide an extra 30% of memory for that functionality.

Jos


From nico at farumdata.dk  Tue Jun 12 00:39:04 2012
From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 07:39:04 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
References: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com>
 <m1SeABQ-000J4WC@p850ug1> <4FD6088B.3801.178C08C@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CA+0-H5T7eAtk5MsrseP3rfb0DQbOyBJUmkaX1Uvn_t8DJ5i_wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A9E2CCFA8B2B4E8AB9C01DFA691006FD@udvikling>

Hello P800 people :-)

Came to think of that I have a CPU board originating from a PTS 6800. It 
might well be of use for p800*s. The 12NC number is 5111-199-72373. It also 
says on the label : AMX 32:FA11665 0183.
O n the board is a core assembly 3256977-02, config 32Kx16, coretype 
1380-10d, s/n 11976
We do have a P6800 in store at the danish IT museum, but I dont think we'll 
ever get it running again, so I'm willing to part with the board for the 
cost of P&P

/nico
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Camiel Vanderhoeven" <iamcamiel at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: P800 boards


On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>> Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. Those
>> can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct),
>
> Not necessarily--they're included in the Hamming distance, so a
> single error, even in the syndrome bits can be corrected.
>
> A 21 bit word for a 16 bit word will detect all single-bit errors but
> a pure Hamming SECDED would require 22 bits (4 SEC + 1 added parity).
>
> However, there exist other codes with SECDED properties--Hsiao codes-
> -that will allow for SECDED in (21:16). I believe that the popular
> (72:64) SECDED code is a shortened Hamming code.


Time to get the terminology and math straight. Please forgive me if I
sound pedantic:

(31,26) (26 data bits + 5 parity bits) is a Hamming code. We only need
16 data bits, so we use (21,16), which is called a truncated Hamming
code. It's capable of single-bit error correction, but not capable of
double-bit error detection (or, more precisely, a double-bit error is
seen as an error in a third bit, which then gets "corrected", so a
double-bit error gets turned into a triple-bit error!).

By adding an extra parity bit to the Hamming code, you get an extended
truncated Hamming code (22,16). Extended Hamming is a SECDED code.

Hsiao code is another SECDED code. It uses the same number of bits as
an extended truncated Hamming code, but is easier to implement in
silicon.

A (72,64) SECDED code could be extended truncated Hamming or Hsiao.
SECDED can not be done with less bits (unless you increase the word
size of course).


Here's an example of a (21,16) truncated Hamming code:

  0 000 1111010 11010
---------------------
1 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 - p1
=00  00  11  10  10   - p2
 = 1000    1010    10 - p3
   =   11111010       - p4
       =       111010 - p5
---------------=-----
100100011111010111010


Cheers,

Camiel


--
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter.
SPAMfighter has removed 386 of my spam emails to date.
Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

Do you have a slow PC? Try Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen




From peter at vanpeborgh.eu  Mon Jun 11 12:46:34 2012
From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 18:46:34 +0100
Subject: Preferably Data General fan-fold paper tape
Message-ID: <FB58ADA9E2974DECABE5972421AE3AF3@vostro>

I can't remember if I asked this before, but I am very keen to get such tape(s). Anyone out there got some? Will pay money (up to a point).

Many thanks.
|| |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
Peter Van Peborgh
62 St Mary's Rise
Writhlington  Radstock
Somerset BA3 3PD
UK
01761 439 234
|| |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |


From cctech at beyondthepale.ie  Mon Jun 11 18:30:53 2012
From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 00:30:53 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: Old fiujitsu scanner
Message-ID: <01OGKUAVYGGI000KH9@beyondthepale.ie>

>
>I've acquired on old enterprise/small office 11x17 ADF scanner. Came with
>everything except a cable, and any sort of support. I've tried signing up
>for the KoFax forums, but seems to be dead. Have to wait for an admin to
>approve me, and it's been a couple weeks now with no action.
>
>Its a fujitsu M3097DE, with a first generation KoFax VRS card in it. The
>card is a Fujitsu CG01000-440201 (sticker) or kofax 13000125-000 (PCB
>silkscreen)
>

The rather old version of the SANE scanner package I've got here (1.0.18) makes
mention of the Fujitsu M3097DE.

I would suggest asking for help on the sane-devel mailing list which
despite it's name, is also for general users. I haven't been there for a
while but last time I was, there was lots of lively discussion.

http://www.sane-project.org/

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.


From jimpdavis at gorge.net  Mon Jun 11 23:00:54 2012
From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 21:00:54 -0700
Subject: A Teletype Model 43 and a 1938 Army dual teletype with paper
 tapes available.
In-Reply-To: <4fd6bd46.0e6b650a.4e9d.ffffe695SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
References: <4fd6bd46.0e6b650a.4e9d.ffffe695SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <4FD6BEF6.7040603@gorge.net>

Oh no! Not another baud .vs.BPS.vs.data rate gentleman's argument!
But, What is a 300 Baud interface? Current loop maybe?
jim

Scott M wrote:
> I was at a storage unit this evening, picking up yet another couple of
> free DEC machines.  The guy unloading the machines also had a couple of
> teletypes.  One was a pretty standard Model 43 (all plastic case).
> It had a 300 baud interface, not serial port.  He said he knows it works
> because he ran it to a computer at 300 baud that then converted the
> signal to serial so that it could communicate "normally".  He said the
> 300 baud interface makes it more of a pain, but more cool at the same
> time.  He is looking to unload it right away.  The other teletype was
> all metal, built into a small table, had an Army Corps label, a tape
> read/writer?, a box of blank "new" paper tapes on spools about 5/8 inch
> wide.  Also a second auxiliary? teletype unit was built into a very
> small adjacent table.  This one had several "new" rolls of paper approx
> 12 inches wide.  The secondary teletype had keys too, but I am thinking
> the primary with the paper tape was used for input and the secondary
> was used for output.  The guy said it was used with the MARS system.
> There was an interface box too, probably to connect to a ham radio,
> but the radio was not present.  The guy said he got it from a retired
> Air Force General who had kept it as a souvenir.  He said he has all the
> original manuals that go with it at home.  He said it is complete and
> reportedly working.  The only thing wrong was some of the plastic covers
> on the individual keyboard keys had deteriorated and were loose.
> However considering the year, 1938, it was in remarkably good shape.
> The dry Colorado air is pretty easy on most equipment, and this was
> yet another example of that.
> He said cannot ship it because it is too heavy, but I know that places
> like "The UPS Store" can pickup, package, and ship items like this.
> There is a UPS Store nearby that might be able to do the job.  (I had
> a 100+ lb IBM machine shipped this way a few years ago for about $200).
> Anyway, the guy is Matt.  I am not going to post his email address, but
> if you want to contact him, email me and I will forward your email to
> him.  I can also give you contact info for the nearby UPS Store.  Matt
> took some pictures with his smartphone for me, and once he emails those,
> I will put them on a website.
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>    



From brian at polibyte.com  Mon Jun 11 23:39:53 2012
From: brian at polibyte.com (Brian Pitts)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 00:39:53 -0400
Subject: Available VAX
Message-ID: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>

Down in Macon, GA my dad has a DEC that we would like to send to a good
home. He purchased this several years ago from a man in north
Georgia who said it spend the 1990s answering the phone at a utility
company. My dad kept it in his classroom while he was a high school
technology teacher, but now that he's no longer teaching it's gathering
dust on his carport.

There's a VAXstation 3, DECvoice unit, two hard drives, and a tape drive
in an enclosure on wheels. There's also a VT420 terminal. You'd need a
truck, ramp, and at least two strong people to load and unload this.

You can see some pictures of the equipment at
http://www.flickr.com/photos/puerexmachina/sets/72157622981044137/

Please pass this on to anyone you think might be interested!

-- 
All the best,
Brian Pitts


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 12 01:09:20 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 23:09:20 -0700
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5T7eAtk5MsrseP3rfb0DQbOyBJUmkaX1Uvn_t8DJ5i_wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0FFA6AF5-BE2B-4847-8CAC-738C364D6D68@gmail.com>,
 <4FD6088B.3801.178C08C@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <CA+0-H5T7eAtk5MsrseP3rfb0DQbOyBJUmkaX1Uvn_t8DJ5i_wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD67AA0.30623.336C219@cclist.sydex.com>

On 12 Jun 2012 at 6:32, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:

> Time to get the terminology and math straight. Please forgive me if I
> sound pedantic:

Your comments were welcome--my post contents were colored by the fog 
of time.  I've since gone back and read Hsiao's 1970 paper and 
understand things a bit better. I suppose to be complete, one could 
also mention other codes that have been devised since Hsiao and their 
benefits and liabilities.

--Chuck



From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 02:37:34 2012
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 02:37:34 -0500
Subject: Available VAX
In-Reply-To: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21gh7WrGR0Z2r16sYThPfHL3ipov1=HfkFmj6m0hE2+cg@mail.gmail.com>

funny that its got a crtc lable on it from canada lol

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 11:39 PM, Brian Pitts <brian at polibyte.com> wrote:

> Down in Macon, GA my dad has a DEC that we would like to send to a good
> home. He purchased this several years ago from a man in north
> Georgia who said it spend the 1990s answering the phone at a utility
> company. My dad kept it in his classroom while he was a high school
> technology teacher, but now that he's no longer teaching it's gathering
> dust on his carport.
>
> There's a VAXstation 3, DECvoice unit, two hard drives, and a tape drive
> in an enclosure on wheels. There's also a VT420 terminal. You'd need a
> truck, ramp, and at least two strong people to load and unload this.
>
> You can see some pictures of the equipment at
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/puerexmachina/sets/72157622981044137/
>
> Please pass this on to anyone you think might be interested!
>
> --
> All the best,
> Brian Pitts
>


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 05:19:25 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 07:19:25 -0300
Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
 <CAA3rs21gh7WrGR0Z2r16sYThPfHL3ipov1=HfkFmj6m0hE2+cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook>


    Let's party!!! I got an Apple //c!!! Woohoo! :oD
    
    Now I just need to find an internal expansion board...
    
    ...Or create it :oD

    Greetings from Brazil
    Alexandre Souza
    
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 12 09:50:58 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 07:50:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD
In-Reply-To: <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
 <CAA3rs21gh7WrGR0Z2r16sYThPfHL3ipov1=HfkFmj6m0hE2+cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

talk about markeing. Apple had a small brochure with a girl on the cover, yellow sweatshirt and hat (covering most of her face) holding it against her stomach. I'm not saying it's that that made me always want one (and ironically I had a friend who needed "help" w/computers and asked me to come over and "set it all up", never got around to it). But their stylish presentation of their computers in general likely added something to their appeal.
?Or maybe the darned thing just looked nice! :) The earlier ][s never did anything for me. Of course you were a lot better in terms of expandability w/a ][e. You could pick the ][c up by the handle though. 

?Nice machin. Congratulations. I don't know how to say that in spanish though, sorry. tee hee


?  Let's party!!! I got an Apple //c!!! Woohoo! :oD
? ? ? Now I just need to find an internal expansion board...
? ? ? ...Or create it :oD

?  Greetings from Brazil
?  Alexandre Souza
?  ---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br

From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 12 09:58:14 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 07:58:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: I am looking for a few MINDSET items, in particular a BASIC
In-Reply-To: <m1SeAVZ-000J4cC@p850ug1>
References: <20120610173623.F32239@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 10,
 12 06:02:07 pm <m1SeAVZ-000J4cC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <1339513094.442.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

IIRC, th IBM PCjr has BASIC in ROM, so the cartridge is quitel ikely to 

be BASIC extensions, not the full interpretter.

C: when I came to my senses, I realize this also. I don't know what made me believe the Peanut didn't have a basic BASIC is rom is a matter for speculation. Perhaps a cosmic ray.

It is _very_ difficult to judge somebody's knowledge nad experience based 
on a few postings.

C: a few posting over 8 or 9 years? 

?And having known 'Grumpy 
old Fred' fro many years here, I don't think he's going to deliberately 
isnult somebody asking sensible questions.

C: Tell me hurt feelings that. They're not buying it :(


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 12 10:01:21 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:01:21 -0400
Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD
In-Reply-To: <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
 <CAA3rs21gh7WrGR0Z2r16sYThPfHL3ipov1=HfkFmj6m0hE2+cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD759C1.1070800@neurotica.com>

On 06/12/2012 10:50 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> talk about markeing. Apple had a small brochure with a girl on the cover, yellow sweatshirt and hat (covering most of her face) holding it against her stomach. I'm not saying it's that that made me always want one (and ironically I had a friend who needed "help" w/computers and asked me to come over and "set it all up", never got around to it). But their stylish presentation of their computers in general likely added something to their appeal.
>  Or maybe the darned thing just looked nice! :) The earlier ][s never did anything for me. Of course you were a lot better in terms of expandability w/a ][e. You could pick the ][c up by the handle though. 
> 
>  Nice machin. Congratulations. I don't know how to say that in spanish though, sorry. tee hee

  Good heavens, show some respect.  Portuguese.

          -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 10:05:13 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:05:13 +0100
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 June 2012 03:12, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> On 6/11/12 5:21 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> But surely, the same reasons that made it feasible to develop and
>> maintain for 7 years and 3 major versions would have still applied on
>> PowerPC, no?
>
> Well, there was the problem of no toolchain for PowerPC. That wasn't
> a problem if they switched to AIX. A/UX was also based on Unisoft System
> V, which may have had licensing problems in volume, but I have no real
> knowledge of that. The only compiler people Apple had at the time were in
> the MPW group, and they would have had their hands full with MacOS tools
> which used a completely different object format (PEF).

Ah, good point. I didn't know that.

Would GCC have been an option back then?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_%28operating_system%29
>
> It is very difficult to explain what was going on if you weren't in the
> middle of it, but that Wikipedia article gives you a pretty good idea of
> how dysfunctional and out of control Apple was in the 90's. Remember,
> this is the same company that let someone develop "Graphing Calculator"
> and let them keep their office when they didn't even WORK for Apple any
> more.

Oddly, I just stumbled across & reread the history of that last night!

> Note that there is NO mention of A/UX or Unix anywhere in there. As far
> as anyone was concerned, Unix didn't exist. If it was brought up as an
> alternative, it was immediately dismissed as not useful as a basis for
> the Mac OS, either because of size, or perceived performance.

Yes indeed. I remember watching all this going on closely at the time.

And yet, there it was, still alive in another department at Apple.
Very very odd.

It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The
list is long...
* Newton
* OpenDoc
* OpenTransport
* GameSprockets
* Pippin
* CyberDog
* Sherlock
* Copland, Gershwin, etc.
* A/UX

A lot of these were killed by the NeXT deal.

And yet, what has resulted is really astonishingly good... So I guess
in the end it was all worth it. Even if the new Apple Inc doesn't have
much to do with the old Apple Computer Inc.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 10:08:40 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:08:40 -0400
Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD
In-Reply-To: <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
 <CAA3rs21gh7WrGR0Z2r16sYThPfHL3ipov1=HfkFmj6m0hE2+cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D3DAE209-2FB5-496F-BF09-E06930AC25A3@gmail.com>

On Jun 12, 2012, at 10:50 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:

>  Nice machin. Congratulations. I don't know how to say that in spanish though, sorry. tee hee

You'd be out of luck anyway; Brazil speaks Portuguese (though I'm
sure there are plenty of Spanish speakers as well).


- Dave




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 12 10:20:04 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:20:04 -0400
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>

On 06/12/2012 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The
> list is long...
> * Newton
> * OpenTransport

  I don't know all of their cutesy little project names, but these two
at least didn't exactly fizzle.  Yes, they were discontinued eventually,
but not before being in pretty popular use.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 10:34:02 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:34:02 -0300
Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
 <CAA3rs21gh7WrGR0Z2r16sYThPfHL3ipov1=HfkFmj6m0hE2+cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0ba101cd48b0$f41da580$6400a8c0@tababook>

>Nice machin. Congratulations. I don't know how to say that in spanish 
>though, sorry. tee hee

    Eh...Brazilians speak portuguese, and not spanish... :o) 



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 10:37:06 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:37:06 -0400
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkAG5jsfEAo+6UWN9ooRK6BOCewnJ2eyK4oh4sUX8WxhA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
> On 06/12/2012 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>> It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The
>> list is long...
>> * Newton
>> * OpenTransport
>
> ?I don't know all of their cutesy little project names, but these two
> at least didn't exactly fizzle. ?Yes, they were discontinued eventually,
> but not before being in pretty popular use.

The Newton was certainly big after Gary Trudeau made fun of his in
"Doonesbury" for its sometimes-quirky handwriting recognition.

Apple may have killed the product, but tens of millions, at least,
knew something about it through the comics.

(cf. http://www.wired.com/gadgets/mac/commentary/cultofmac/2002/08/54580 )

-ethan



From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 10:37:38 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:37:38 +0100
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFbh8LrEzN=m0b8Y_Tfak8kv1gK8uTibybShdrVaofC0A@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 June 2012 16:20, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
> On 06/12/2012 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>> It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The
>> list is long...
>> * Newton
>> * OpenTransport
>
> ?I don't know all of their cutesy little project names, but these two
> at least didn't exactly fizzle. ?Yes, they were discontinued eventually,
> but not before being in pretty popular use.

True. Ultimately killed off, though.

Indeed about the only Apple technologies that persist in Mac OS X are
QuickTime and HFS+. I think it's fair to say /everything/ else is gone
now; a few backwards-compatibility traces remain.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 10:45:08 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:45:08 -0400
Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD
In-Reply-To: <0ba101cd48b0$f41da580$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
 <CAA3rs21gh7WrGR0Z2r16sYThPfHL3ipov1=HfkFmj6m0hE2+cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <0ba101cd48b0$f41da580$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmYJX+3SaL6tKSooTtdRqcfAbMjsRHV0USR06zpoiJvOg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas
<pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Nice machin. Congratulations. I don't know how to say that in spanish
>> though, sorry. tee hee
>
>
> ? Eh...Brazilians speak portuguese, and not spanish... :o)

So I say "parab?ns!"

-ethan



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 12 10:51:58 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 08:51:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD
In-Reply-To: <0ba101cd48b0$f41da580$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
 <CAA3rs21gh7WrGR0Z2r16sYThPfHL3ipov1=HfkFmj6m0hE2+cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <0ba101cd48b0$f41da580$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <1339516318.51343.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>



> Nice machin. Congratulations. I don't know how to say that in spanish though, sorry. tee hee

?  Eh...Brazilians speak portuguese, and not spanish... :o) 

?I wouldn't know. Despite the 1 x 10^6 times I've been told. But gracias anyway.

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 12 10:51:55 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 08:51:55 -0700
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkAG5jsfEAo+6UWN9ooRK6BOCewnJ2eyK4oh4sUX8WxhA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <CAALmimkAG5jsfEAo+6UWN9ooRK6BOCewnJ2eyK4oh4sUX8WxhA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD7659B.2050809@bitsavers.org>

On 6/12/12 8:37 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:

> The Newton was certainly big after Gary Trudeau made fun of his in
> "Doonesbury" for its sometimes-quirky handwriting recognition.
>
> Apple may have killed the product, but tens of millions, at least,
> knew something about it through the comics.
>

few people know that Apple kept working on handwriting recongition into the 21st century

http://www.beanblossom.in.us/larryy/anhr.html



From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun 12 10:53:04 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:53:04 -0600
Subject: A Teletype Model 43 and a 1938 Army dual teletype with paper
 tapes available.
In-Reply-To: <4FD6BEF6.7040603@gorge.net>
References: <4fd6bd46.0e6b650a.4e9d.ffffe695SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
 <4FD6BEF6.7040603@gorge.net>
Message-ID: <E1SeTOy-0004QP-KX@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FD6BEF6.7040603 at gorge.net>,
    jimpdavis <jimpdavis at gorge.net> writes:

> But, What is a 300 Baud interface? Current loop maybe?

The 43 could be configured with an internal 300 baud modem instead of
a serial interface.  I believe the serial interface was the expected
typical configuration, but you could get either the modem or a current
loop interface.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Jun 12 10:54:24 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 08:54:24 -0700
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFbh8LrEzN=m0b8Y_Tfak8kv1gK8uTibybShdrVaofC0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCFbh8LrEzN=m0b8Y_Tfak8kv1gK8uTibybShdrVaofC0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240809cbfd164eaa4b@[192.168.1.199]>

At 4:37 PM +0100 6/12/12, Liam Proven wrote:
>True. Ultimately killed off, though.
>
>Indeed about the only Apple technologies that persist in Mac OS X are
>QuickTime and HFS+. I think it's fair to say /everything/ else is gone
>now; a few backwards-compatibility traces remain.

I rather wish they'd kill of HFS+, weren't there rumors of moving to 
ZFS a few years back?

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 12 10:57:58 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:57:58 -0400
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFbh8LrEzN=m0b8Y_Tfak8kv1gK8uTibybShdrVaofC0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCFbh8LrEzN=m0b8Y_Tfak8kv1gK8uTibybShdrVaofC0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD76706.5010603@neurotica.com>

On 06/12/2012 11:37 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 12 June 2012 16:20, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
>> On 06/12/2012 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>> It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The
>>> list is long...
>>> * Newton
>>> * OpenTransport
>>
>>  I don't know all of their cutesy little project names, but these two
>> at least didn't exactly fizzle.  Yes, they were discontinued eventually,
>> but not before being in pretty popular use.
> 
> True. Ultimately killed off, though.

  Sure, like everything else, though.  How long does something have to
last as a product to be considered "successful"?

> Indeed about the only Apple technologies that persist in Mac OS X are
> QuickTime and HFS+. I think it's fair to say /everything/ else is gone
> now; a few backwards-compatibility traces remain.

  Now I have to admit that it's been a long time since I've slept, but
this is confusing to me.  There's TONS of Apple code in OS X and iOS
that could arguably be termed "Apple technologies".  What, exactly, are
you talking about here?  Do you mean "old" "Apple technologies", like
pre-OS X stuff?

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 11:00:56 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 13:00:56 -0300
Subject: Got a //c uhuhuhu! :oD
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
 <CAA3rs21gh7WrGR0Z2r16sYThPfHL3ipov1=HfkFmj6m0hE2+cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <087001cd4884$fce2fe30$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <1339512658.82883.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <0ba101cd48b0$f41da580$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <CAALmimmYJX+3SaL6tKSooTtdRqcfAbMjsRHV0USR06zpoiJvOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0ca101cd48b4$bb0fcb20$6400a8c0@tababook>

>> Eh...Brazilians speak portuguese, and not spanish... :o)
>
> So I say "parab?ns!"

    Obrigado, Ethan! :o)

    BTW: Brazilian residents of this list (Jecel et al), what about a 
meeting in SP? :oD 



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 12 11:26:53 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:26:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
Message-ID: <1339518413.8747.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

assuming an empty socket (IBM mobos typically have empty sockets), chances are if you dropped IBM roms into a clone mobo, while it may not boot into BASIC in the absence of a floppy or hard drive, would it work if you jumped to so and so?


From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 12 11:29:48 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 09:29:48 -0700
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFbh8LrEzN=m0b8Y_Tfak8kv1gK8uTibybShdrVaofC0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCFbh8LrEzN=m0b8Y_Tfak8kv1gK8uTibybShdrVaofC0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD76E7C.7090203@bitsavers.org>

On 6/12/12 8:37 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

> Indeed about the only Apple technologies that persist in Mac OS X are
> QuickTime and HFS+.

There is still a lot buried under the hood.

Ken Turkowski's code for icon zoom in the dock comes to mind.

They keychain is another one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keychain_%28Mac_OS%29
which is the only thing that survived from the titanic Apple Mail/PowerTalk project.




From jon at jonworld.com  Tue Jun 12 11:29:55 2012
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:29:55 -0400
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <p06240809cbfd164eaa4b@192.168.1.199>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCFbh8LrEzN=m0b8Y_Tfak8kv1gK8uTibybShdrVaofC0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <p06240809cbfd164eaa4b@192.168.1.199>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+06gwhpkquEXutnFMv3sVnVCYhi_eXdf3QHk-tmRQ6uwQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:

> I rather wish they'd kill of HFS+, weren't there rumors of moving to ZFS a
> few years back?
>
>
ZFS in OSX died due to SUNW->ORCL licensing changes, IIRC.


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Jun 12 08:06:53 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 06:06:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>

Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards.  Pretty slick:

http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 11:33:47 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:33:47 -0400
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19D963E0-E694-4CBB-B08C-4DD688041554@gmail.com>

On Jun 12, 2012, at 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

> It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The
> list is long...
> * Newton

Wouldn't say "came to nothing".  It had a fairly long run as abortive
products go.  It died before its time, certainly.

> * OpenDoc

...was a nice idea, but ultimately impractical.  Microsoft essentially
does it with OLE, which makes a handy mess out of document formats.

> * OpenTransport

I wouldn't even say it "came to nothing"; it was the primary communications
facility right up until the end of "classic" Mac OS.  It wouldn't have made
a lot of sense to use on a Unix platform.

> * GameSprockets

Didn't quite die, but essentially got re-absorbed as OS X components.

> * Pippin
> * CyberDog

I barely remember these two.

> * Sherlock

Was terrible.  It deserved to perish in flames.  So does Spotlight, IMHO,
but it's an Important Part Of The Operating System (tm) now, especially
given Apple's apparent intent to make it increasingly difficult to find
where your documents are stored with every new OS X iteration.



- Dave


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Jun 12 08:13:22 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 06:13:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120612350.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 12 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 06/12/2012 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>> It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The
>> list is long...
>> * Newton
>> * OpenTransport
>
>  I don't know all of their cutesy little project names, but these two
> at least didn't exactly fizzle.  Yes, they were discontinued eventually,
> but not before being in pretty popular use.
>
Apple is the Fox Television of the computer industry.  If it's actually 
interesting, it must be cancelled immediately.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 12 11:52:34 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:52:34 -0400
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <1339518413.8747.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339518413.8747.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD773D2.7030409@neurotica.com>

On 06/12/2012 12:26 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> assuming an empty socket (IBM mobos typically have empty sockets), chances are if you dropped IBM roms into a clone mobo, while it may not boot into BASIC in the absence of a floppy or hard drive, would it work if you jumped to so and so?

  That depends on the level of "cloneness".  In the context of my very
first PC XT clone eons ago, I put a full copy of the IBM ROM BIOS and
ROM BASIC in it, and it went right into BASIC as expected when it
couldn't find a boot device.  That was a pretty close copy of the XT
design; the only real difference was the ability to switch the clock to
8MHz from 4.77.  It ran IBM BASIC from ROM just fine.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 12:19:23 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:19:23 +0100
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <4FD7659B.2050809@bitsavers.org>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <CAALmimkAG5jsfEAo+6UWN9ooRK6BOCewnJ2eyK4oh4sUX8WxhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD7659B.2050809@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGyPNM1WNNneyvzP_WJWO=aaA-ozSJ=b3d2N=RXm=K+eQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 June 2012 16:51, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> On 6/12/12 8:37 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>
>> The Newton was certainly big after Gary Trudeau made fun of his in
>> "Doonesbury" for its sometimes-quirky handwriting recognition.
>>
>> Apple may have killed the product, but tens of millions, at least,
>> knew something about it through the comics.
>>
>
> few people know that Apple kept working on handwriting recongition into the
> 21st century
>
> http://www.beanblossom.in.us/larryy/anhr.html

Fascinating! Thanks!


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 12:20:28 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:20:28 +0100
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <p06240809cbfd164eaa4b@192.168.1.199>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCFbh8LrEzN=m0b8Y_Tfak8kv1gK8uTibybShdrVaofC0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <p06240809cbfd164eaa4b@192.168.1.199>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFM3eU6hKPVq2kw2S-vFsaQcJhvqFUv9ah9LQuU88EGfg@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 June 2012 16:54, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
>
> I rather wish they'd kill of HFS+, weren't there rumors of moving to ZFS a
> few years back?

I don't know what happened but I suspect it might have been something
to do with the Oracle takeover. This has caused problems with Java use
on Linux, for example. Oracle won't permit others to host the JVM in a
repository any more, for instance.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 12:23:59 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:23:59 +0100
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <4FD76706.5010603@neurotica.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCFbh8LrEzN=m0b8Y_Tfak8kv1gK8uTibybShdrVaofC0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD76706.5010603@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHzunGMbLgBVz-xFv554d=fB+O+UdsRXdTWgaddB5gbYA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 June 2012 16:57, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
> On 06/12/2012 11:37 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>> On 12 June 2012 16:20, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
>>> On 06/12/2012 11:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>> It's a shame how many Apple projects came to nothing and died. The
>>>> list is long...
>>>> * Newton
>>>> * OpenTransport
>>>
>>> ?I don't know all of their cutesy little project names, but these two
>>> at least didn't exactly fizzle. ?Yes, they were discontinued eventually,
>>> but not before being in pretty popular use.
>>
>> True. Ultimately killed off, though.
>
> ?Sure, like everything else, though. ?How long does something have to
> last as a product to be considered "successful"?
>
>> Indeed about the only Apple technologies that persist in Mac OS X are
>> QuickTime and HFS+. I think it's fair to say /everything/ else is gone
>> now; a few backwards-compatibility traces remain.
>
> ?Now I have to admit that it's been a long time since I've slept, but
> this is confusing to me. ?There's TONS of Apple code in OS X and iOS
> that could arguably be termed "Apple technologies". ?What, exactly, are
> you talking about here? ?Do you mean "old" "Apple technologies", like
> pre-OS X stuff?

Yes, exactly that.

Apple had a whole OS ecosystem before Mac OS X: its own OS, binary
format, disk metadata system, printing system, network protocol,
network filesystem, object model, web browser, search subsystem and
front-end, sound, image and video formats, etc. etc.

OS X brought over some elements and some bits stuck around for a while
- Classic mode, for instance.

Almost all of it is gone now.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just remarkable how radical the
transition has been. Many have said it before me, but it's as if NeXT
took over Apple rather than the other way round.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 12 12:46:50 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 10:46:50 -0700
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <1339518413.8747.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339518413.8747.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD71E1A.10205.46CCA2@cclist.sydex.com>

On 12 Jun 2012 at 9:26, Chris Tofu wrote:

> assuming an empty socket (IBM mobos typically have empty sockets),
> chances are if you dropped IBM roms into a clone mobo, while it may
> not boot into BASIC in the absence of a floppy or hard drive, would it
> work if you jumped to so and so?

I used to do it all the time.  Yes, it works.

--Chuck
 




From teoz at neo.rr.com  Tue Jun 12 13:36:06 2012
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 14:36:06 -0400
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120612350.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <49AB486BC59345D5BDDFB36013D89C91@hd2600xt6a04f7>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gene Buckle" <geneb at deltasoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: interesting Quora post on Marklar


> On Tue, 12 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
> Apple is the Fox Television of the computer industry.  If it's actually 
> interesting, it must be cancelled immediately.
>

Never heard of Fringe? 



From sellam at vintagetech.com  Mon Jun 11 04:31:16 2012
From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 02:31:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: VAXstation 3 with DECvoice unit available in Macon, Georgia
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206110230300.13459@vintagetech.com>


See below.

Reply-to: Brian Pitts <brian at polibyte.com>

--

Sellam Ismail                                                      VintageTech
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger            http://www.vintagetech.com

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 01:43:12 -0400
From: Brian Pitts <brian at polibyte.com>
To: donate at vintage.org
Subject: Available VAX

Down in Macon, GA my dad has a DEC that we would like to send to a good
home. He purchased this several years ago from a man in north
Georgia who said it spend the 1990s answering the phone at a utility
company. My dad kept it in his classroom while he was a high school
technology teacher, but now that he's no longer teaching it's gathering
dust on his carport.

There's a VAXstation 3, DECvoice unit, two hard drives, and a tape drive
in an enclosure on wheels. There's also a VT420 terminal.

You can see some pictures of the equipment at
http://www.flickr.com/photos/puerexmachina/sets/72157622981044137/

Please pass this on to anyone you think might be interested!

-- 
All the best,
Brian Pitts


From md.benson at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 13:40:21 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:40:21 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <60F7C83E-3C40-4545-A1DD-124412CC191B@gmail.com>


On 12 Jun 2012, at 14:06, Gene Buckle wrote:

> Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards.  Pretty slick:
> 
> http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster

I have a project lined up for RetroChallenge 2012 to do a 4-machine SimH VAX cluster using Raspberry Pi but this guy beat me to it on the back of me only having 1 board. I wonder if he;d want to co-op on the project and teach me about VMScluster ;)

-- 

Mark Benson

http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK

Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.




From teoz at neo.rr.com  Tue Jun 12 13:41:22 2012
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 14:41:22 -0400
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCFbh8LrEzN=m0b8Y_Tfak8kv1gK8uTibybShdrVaofC0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD76706.5010603@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCHzunGMbLgBVz-xFv554d=fB+O+UdsRXdTWgaddB5gbYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <91E669858C3B490B9F009828DE03E9AB@hd2600xt6a04f7>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Liam Proven" <lproven at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: interesting Quora post on Marklar


> I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just remarkable how radical the
> transition has been. Many have said it before me, but it's as if NeXT
> took over Apple rather than the other way round.
>

Isn't that just Jobs bringing his own people in because he didn't trust the 
people at Apple when he arrived?
Most of the Apple software tech he found was from after he got the boot so I 
don't see him caring about any of it.
 I must be one of the few that liked classic Mac OS and not OSX (why remake 
a decade old user interface?). 



From jws at jwsss.com  Tue Jun 12 13:44:35 2012
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:44:35 -0700
Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <4FD78E13.3090503@jwsss.com>

Gene,
I looked at your page, and note that someone pointed out that Martin 
Richards has a guide to loading BCPL on pi

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mr10/bcpl4raspi.pdf

Thought I'd pass the word along for him.  One of the list members has 
some of his original lab hardware, Computer Automation systems.

I had the opportunity to use BCPL on multics and for the Mathilda 
machine from Aarhus Denmark.

thanks
Jim

On 6/12/2012 6:06 AM, Gene Buckle wrote:
> Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards.  Pretty slick:
>
> http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster
>
> g.
>
>


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 12 13:49:35 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 14:49:35 -0400
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHzunGMbLgBVz-xFv554d=fB+O+UdsRXdTWgaddB5gbYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCFbh8LrEzN=m0b8Y_Tfak8kv1gK8uTibybShdrVaofC0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD76706.5010603@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCHzunGMbLgBVz-xFv554d=fB+O+UdsRXdTWgaddB5gbYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD78F3F.3030403@neurotica.com>

On 06/12/2012 01:23 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>> Indeed about the only Apple technologies that persist in Mac OS X are
>>> QuickTime and HFS+. I think it's fair to say /everything/ else is gone
>>> now; a few backwards-compatibility traces remain.
>>
>>  Now I have to admit that it's been a long time since I've slept, but
>> this is confusing to me.  There's TONS of Apple code in OS X and iOS
>> that could arguably be termed "Apple technologies".  What, exactly, are
>> you talking about here?  Do you mean "old" "Apple technologies", like
>> pre-OS X stuff?
> 
> Yes, exactly that.
> 
> Apple had a whole OS ecosystem before Mac OS X: its own OS, binary
> format, disk metadata system, printing system, network protocol,
> network filesystem, object model, web browser, search subsystem and
> front-end, sound, image and video formats, etc. etc.
> 
> OS X brought over some elements and some bits stuck around for a while
> - Classic mode, for instance.
> 
> Almost all of it is gone now.
> 
> I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just remarkable how radical the
> transition has been. Many have said it before me, but it's as if NeXT
> took over Apple rather than the other way round.

  Ahh ok, I see what you mean.  And yes I have to agree!

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From abs at absd.org  Tue Jun 12 13:53:32 2012
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:53:32 +0100
Subject: Retrocomputing with a VAMP stack: VAX, Apache, MySQL & PHP
In-Reply-To: <CAAq7DHqjN22dMzofFEG9hQaDuE3-1BQBL8hEFyoWhzwNgab1wQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYpM1g50-oTmHpc-3S0xz0sPZmE9p_DDk0u0+Q2Pp=nfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120608231654.91ff8ce7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAAq7DHrk_SOBWH25ONuaTDxE8TK1sVCh-ypGvd2Z2gTCGcBpig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pacMtLG_XoOVhimJKMV_CvNfdQge9W-Ej-iu21mOLRQWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAq7DHqjN22dMzofFEG9hQaDuE3-1BQBL8hEFyoWhzwNgab1wQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pbb9YmFoyN8t66x-W6+KueHbobYFGqjavuCYtHYeFmD6w@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 June 2012 01:00, Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 12:34 PM, David Brownlee <abs at absd.org> wrote:
>> On 9 June 2012 00:12, Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> wrote:
>> > On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Jochen Kunz
>> > <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>wrote:
>> ? I had trouble with NetBSD 1.6 and
>> > later and finally stopped using the vax for my web server in about 2004.
>>
>> Sorry to hear that - can you recall what the issues were?
>
> I couldn't get the packages to build and it was usually something floating
> point related. I think Perl was one that I looked into the most.

Ah, VAX FP, a definite Achilles Heel...

I've not run anything intensive but I've not seen any issues with perl
5.14 so far on my 4000/90 :)



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Jun 12 10:29:09 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 08:29:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <49AB486BC59345D5BDDFB36013D89C91@hd2600xt6a04f7>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120612350.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <49AB486BC59345D5BDDFB36013D89C91@hd2600xt6a04f7>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120828580.27438@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 12 Jun 2012, TeoZ wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" <geneb at deltasoft.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:13 AM
> Subject: Re: interesting Quora post on Marklar
>
>
>> On Tue, 12 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
>> Apple is the Fox Television of the computer industry.  If it's actually 
>> interesting, it must be cancelled immediately.
>> 
>
> Never heard of Fringe? 
>
I'll see your Fringe and raise you a Firefly. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 12 14:18:28 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 12:18:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
Message-ID: <1339528708.1267.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


You (Chuck) and Dave are speaking specifically of so called 100% clones. That I fully expect to be a given. That there exists the mechanism to default to a batch of code in a rom address is news to me though, even in a hundred percenter. But since there is so much compatibility amongst BASICS, as was mentioned recently, and given an empty socket (curious to know which mobos had them, probably few if any) or a board that would extend an existing socket, is it likely an IBM chip would work, even if you had to manually transfer execution.


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 12 14:33:07 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:33:07 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <1BA44B06-C896-490C-A209-BA9CAFA6F6EE@gmail.com> from "David
 Riley" at Jun 11, 12 04:23:26 pm
Message-ID: <m1SeWq0-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> Well, of course, if you want to be a purist about it you can always
> replace the unwieldy mess with the correct cable later, when people
> are actually going to *see* it.  Getting it running is hardly the

_I_ am much more intereseted in how the machines work, what they were 
like to use, and so on, rather than what they look like. So while I'd not 
want an unreliable kludge (such as bare wires that could short, or 
connections that keep on coming adrift), I'd have no problem with making 
an adapter cable and keeping it in use. It's not a permanent 
modification, it doesn't damage anything in any way.

> time to be a stickler unless it's actually going to damage something.

Agreed. The things I am totally against (like boardswapping or powering up 
an unknown machine to see ehat happens), I am against because they can 
cause damage to classic comnputers. Try-it-and-see wiring of an RS232 
port will not.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 12 14:43:10 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:43:10 +0100 (BST)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <201206112143.RAA16343@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Jun 11, 12 05:43:49 pm
Message-ID: <m1SeWzj-000J4WC@p850ug1>

> 
> >> Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits, which
> >> would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits).
> > Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct.  Those
> > can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct),
> 
> No, it doesn't.  See Wikipedia's Hamming code page (asking for SECDED
> redirects to it) for a brief treatment of the subject, or any of many
> more detailed treatments of coding theory for more.

I am missing something here... The OP says that adding 3 bits to a 16 bit 
word is enough to be able to correct any single-bit error. 

Now, consider those 16 'real' data bits. If any single one is in error, 
that generates a new 16 bit word, and each of these much give the same 
output 16 bit word after error correction. So it would appear to me that 
there have to at least 17 possible input words (the 'correct' one, and 
the 16 wach with one bit fillped form the corrrect one) that give the 
same 16 bit output -- that is what is meant by correcting  single bit erorr.

And yet adding 3 bits only gives you 8 times as many possible data words, 
which doesn't seem enough.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 12 14:55:39 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:55:39 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <4FD69672.1090105@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 11,
 12 09:08:02 pm
Message-ID: <m1SeXBo-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

>   Yes!  That's exactly what I do, but I don't recommend it anymore
> because the response is usually "I don't have one of those things with
> LEDs and they're so EXXPEEENNSSIIVEE!!"  (they're like ten

Err, right...

While I can understnad not wantign to spend hundreds or thousands of 
dolalrs on tools and test gear just to get one machine up and running, I 
do think that spending $10 ro so to get the machine working is well worth 
it (hint : If you had to pay me for my time in sorting it out, it would 
be a lot more expensive than that :-)), and anyway, an RS232 tester is 
something you'll ened aagian and again if you work on classic computers. 

Can you stil lget tyhose LED adapters? At one time just about every PC 
shop sold them, but now, since RS232 is out of fashion, I;'ve nto seen 
them on sale for several years. 

It's not hard to make one, but...

> bucks...cheapasses)  But yes, that works perfectly.  Something needs to
> be driving TxD, and something needs to be driving RxD.  Which is which,
> and what state they're in, is unimportant if the goal is to get it talking.

The other trikc is to see what flow control lines are being driven, and 
it noting works, to try loppign them back to what they normally pair with 
(e.g. if pin 4 -- RTS -- is being driven by a device and you can't get it 
to sand anything, try connecting RTS to CTS (4 to 5)). You migth end up 
with a thing that drops data due to buffer overrun from time to time, but 
you sort that out once you've got it sending something.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 12 14:59:23 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:59:23 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <6A8CB411B742460281B9E7D97986B351@hd2600xt6a04f7> from "TeoZ" at
 Jun 11, 12 09:16:17 pm
Message-ID: <m1SeXFR-000J4cC@p850ug1>

> >> Nice links, I have one of the H8571-HP adapters which is listed. What
> > about the RJ45 ethernet to MJJ adapters (I have one Amphenol 482560001)?
> >>
> >
> > Is that a coupler that you plug an MMJ cable plug in one end an an RJ45
> > cable plug in the other?
> 
> It has a female socket for the MMJ plug on one end and a male RJ45 plug 
> molded into the other end.
> 
> DEC and Digital Equipment
> 
> Mfg Part Number 482560001
> 
> Product Description Part Number: 482560001 New, Used, Refurbished, and 
> Repair of AMPHENOL RJ45-M TO MMJ-F ADAPT.

Are you sure this has anythign to do with ethernet? My guess is that it's 
sued to linke DEC serial ports (MMJs) to the modern 'structured wiring' 
found in soem buildings. You'd use them in pairs, one ant each end of a 
building cable so as to connect the 2 serial devices.

And, please, it's not RJ45 unless you are taling about a particular US 
telephone wiring scheme. 10baseT ethernet, etc does not use an RJ45 
conenctor. It's an 8p8c.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 12 15:03:27 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:03:27 +0100 (BST)
Subject: A Teletype Model 43 and a 1938 Army dual teletype with paper tapes
In-Reply-To: <009e01cd484e$7a0c0730$6e241590$@m.18@atsgate.com> from "Scott M"
 at Jun 11, 12 09:50:15 pm
Message-ID: <m1SeXJN-000J4dC@p850ug1>

> 
> I was at a storage unit this evening, picking up yet another couple of 
> free DEC machines.  The guy unloading the machines also had a couple of 
> teletypes.  One was a pretty standard Model 43 (all plastic case). 
> It had a 300 baud interface, not serial port.  He said he knows it works 

I am wondering jsut what a '300 baud interface' is if not a serial port.

It sounds like it might be a current loop interface. I thought the Model 
43 had both that and RS232 as standrd, but it does depened on the PCB at 
the very back, behind the PSU. 

I _think_ that standard Model 43s can do 110 or 300 baud.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 12 15:06:24 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:06:24 +0100 (BST)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <4FD6CA7F.5010308@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Jun 12,
 12 06:50:07 am
Message-ID: <m1SeXMC-000J4eC@p850ug1>

> It might have a sound technical reason to provide error-correcting RAM,
> but only Philips would ignore the financial consequences of having to 
> provide an extra 30% of memory for that functionality. 

I beelive soem VAXen also had ECC (SECDED) RAM. And doubtless other 
machines (Zilog S8000s?)

There are plenty of cases where it's worth spending more at the start to 
have soemthing that works reliably, even if the PC seems to have 
eliminated that idea.

-tony


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Jun 12 12:18:11 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 10:18:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...
In-Reply-To: <4FD78E13.3090503@jwsss.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <4FD78E13.3090503@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206121017290.31511@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 12 Jun 2012, jim s wrote:

> Gene,
> I looked at your page, and note that someone pointed out that Martin Richards 
> has a guide to loading BCPL on pi
>
> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mr10/bcpl4raspi.pdf
>
> Thought I'd pass the word along for him.  One of the list members has some of 
> his original lab hardware, Computer Automation systems.
>
> I had the opportunity to use BCPL on multics and for the Mathilda machine 
> from Aarhus Denmark.
>

It's not my site, but thanks for passing along the info!

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From db at db.net  Tue Jun 12 16:12:38 2012
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:12:38 -0500
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <4FD773D2.7030409@neurotica.com>
References: <1339518413.8747.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FD773D2.7030409@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20120612211238.GA76247@night.db.net>

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 12:52:34PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 06/12/2012 12:26 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> > assuming an empty socket (IBM mobos typically have empty sockets), chances are if you dropped IBM roms into a clone mobo, while it may not boot into BASIC in the absence of a floppy or hard drive, would it work if you jumped to so and so?
..
> couldn't find a boot device.  That was a pretty close copy of the XT
> design; the only real difference was the ability to switch the clock to
> 8MHz from 4.77.  It ran IBM BASIC from ROM just fine.

I remember the early clone errors of "No interpreter" when it couldn't
find a boot disk. ;-)

>             -Dave
> 
> -- 
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA

Diane VA3DB
-- 
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db
  Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth?


From silent700 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 16:38:02 2012
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:38:02 -0500
Subject: Available VAX
In-Reply-To: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SH9Vh1kHFpL3XUN6+uq9MQFMGVpoNC9py_uXuDavw0KAg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 11:39 PM, Brian Pitts <brian at polibyte.com> wrote:
> There's a VAXstation 3, DECvoice unit, two hard drives, and a tape drive
> in an enclosure on wheels. There's also a VT420 terminal. You'd need a
> truck, ramp, and at least two strong people to load and unload this.
>
> You can see some pictures of the equipment at
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/puerexmachina/sets/72157622981044137/

Two things I notice here:  first, the odd wide side panels on the (I
assume) low-boy corporate cabinet.  Never seen those before.  Are they
just cosmetic or do they serve a purpose.

Second, HOLY CRAP A DECVOICE.   Never seen one of those, either.
Plenty of DECTalk units, in their various forms, but never a Voice.
IIRC, that was an early voice-rec system, no?  Or was it just
voicemail?

Me want.  Me too far away :(

j


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 12 17:02:19 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 15:02:19 -0700
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <m1SeWzj-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <201206112143.RAA16343@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Jun 11, 12 05:43:49 pm, <m1SeWzj-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FD759FB.26518.130B53F@cclist.sydex.com>

On 12 Jun 2012 at 20:43, Tony Duell wrote:

> > 
> > >> Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits,
> > >> which would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits).
> > > Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. 
> > > Those can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are
> > > correct),
> > 
> > No, it doesn't.  See Wikipedia's Hamming code page (asking for
> > SECDED redirects to it) for a brief treatment of the subject, or any
> > of many more detailed treatments of coding theory for more.
> 
> I am missing something here... The OP says that adding 3 bits to a 16
> bit word is enough to be able to correct any single-bit error. 

I think he meant +1 instead of -1 in the equation.  So 5 bits, not 3. 
 But I assumed that he'd just copied it wrong from memory or source.

--Chuck




From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 12 17:11:26 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 15:11:26 -0700
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <1339528708.1267.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339528708.1267.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com>

On 12 Jun 2012 at 12:18, Chris Tofu wrote:

> You (Chuck) and Dave are speaking specifically of so called 100%
> clones. That I fully expect to be a given. That there exists the
> mechanism to default to a batch of code in a rom address is news to me
> though, even in a hundred percenter. But since there is so much
> compatibility amongst BASICS, as was mentioned recently, and given an
> empty socket (curious to know which mobos had them, probably few if
> any) or a board that would extend an existing socket, is it likely an
> IBM chip would work, even if you had to manually transfer execution.

I take "clone" at its face value the same way as I view "pregnant".  
You either are or you're something else.  An Eagle 1600 runs MS-DOS 
but is not a PC clone.

But I don't follow the rest of your post--perhaps if you used shorter 
sentences...

--Chuck





From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 17:24:23 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 18:24:23 -0400
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <m1SeXMC-000J4eC@p850ug1>
References: <4FD6CA7F.5010308@bluewin.ch>
	<m1SeXMC-000J4eC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkdJ8TOFFSFSAyDkOq+eGVQZ9MsKs1FY69GRrEFdtwAxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I beelive soem VAXen also had ECC (SECDED) RAM.

Yes.  At the very least, the KA730 (11/730 and 11/725) and KA750
(11/750) used 39-bit-wide main memory.  The 11/750 could take either
256K boards that also worked in an 11/70, and the 1MB boards fit in
all 11/730s and most 11/750s (the earliest models needed an extra
refresh wire strung along the memory backplane and an upgraded memory
controller or else they could only take the 256KB boards).  I never
owned/ran the last rev of the 11/750 that had yet another memory
controller and could take up to two 4MB boards, but I have no reason
to believe they were not also 39 bits wide.

In thousands of hours of running that variety of memory board (a
couple square feet of 4164s for the 1MB model) in several machines, I
think I only ever saw one or two hard failures (double-bit errors).  I
think we saw less than one correctable error per year.  It was not
frequent.

-ethan


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 18:10:26 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:10:26 -0400
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <m1SeWzj-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SeWzj-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <DC4AF54C-8887-4C0A-B68A-B47F5D2F8113@gmail.com>

On Jun 12, 2012, at 15:43, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:

>> 
>>>> Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits, which
>>>> would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits).
>>> Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct.  Those
>>> can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct),
>> 
>> No, it doesn't.  See Wikipedia's Hamming code page (asking for SECDED
>> redirects to it) for a brief treatment of the subject, or any of many
>> more detailed treatments of coding theory for more.
> 
> I am missing something here... The OP says that adding 3 bits to a 16 bit 
> word is enough to be able to correct any single-bit error. 
> 
> Now, consider those 16 'real' data bits. If any single one is in error, 
> that generates a new 16 bit word, and each of these much give the same 
> output 16 bit word after error correction. So it would appear to me that 
> there have to at least 17 possible input words (the 'correct' one, and 
> the 16 wach with one bit fillped form the corrrect one) that give the 
> same 16 bit output -- that is what is meant by correcting  single bit erorr.
> 
> And yet adding 3 bits only gives you 8 times as many possible data words, 
> which doesn't seem enough.

I'm not actually the OP, just a respondent. In any case, I'd note that I qualified it with "if I recall correctly", which can be a pretty major qualifier. :-)


- Dave


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 18:55:42 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:55:42 -0400
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <m1SeXMC-000J4eC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SeXMC-000J4eC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <BB59FEC5-22B5-4DB1-ABBE-61789FB8ED24@gmail.com>

On Jun 12, 2012, at 16:06, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:

>> It might have a sound technical reason to provide error-correcting RAM,
>> but only Philips would ignore the financial consequences of having to 
>> provide an extra 30% of memory for that functionality. 
> 
> I beelive soem VAXen also had ECC (SECDED) RAM. And doubtless other 
> machines (Zilog S8000s?)
> 
> There are plenty of cases where it's worth spending more at the start to 
> have soemthing that works reliably, even if the PC seems to have 
> eliminated that idea.

Plenty of PCs support ECC RAM. Generally on the server/workstation side of things, but I'd hardly call it uncommon.

Of course, "working reliably" does involve a lot more than just eliminating bit errors from cosmic rays, I'll give you that one.

- Dave




From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 19:19:58 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:19:58 +0100
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <91E669858C3B490B9F009828DE03E9AB@hd2600xt6a04f7>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCFbh8LrEzN=m0b8Y_Tfak8kv1gK8uTibybShdrVaofC0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD76706.5010603@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCHzunGMbLgBVz-xFv554d=fB+O+UdsRXdTWgaddB5gbYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <91E669858C3B490B9F009828DE03E9AB@hd2600xt6a04f7>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHfEgz681NKO2K+hftatDkZ2cbr6wmaXKGAR4mFYToiJw@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 June 2012 19:41, TeoZ <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Isn't that just Jobs bringing his own people in because he didn't trust the
> people at Apple when he arrived?

I am sure at least part of that is true, but at first, the NeXTites
were far outnumbered.

> Most of the Apple software tech he found was from after he got the boot so I
> don't see him caring about any of it.

Arguably true, yes.

> I must be one of the few that liked classic Mac OS and not OSX (why remake a
> decade old user interface?).

I like both, myself. There are many elements of classic MacOS that I
miss in OS X, though, from the elegance of the System Folder and the
simplicity of the customisable Apple menu, to the convenience of
drawers.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info  Tue Jun 12 19:27:36 2012
From: dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info (Dennis Yurichev)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 03:27:36 +0300
Subject: Ukraine?
Message-ID: <4FD7DE78.8050800@conus.info>

Hi.

Just interesting, is there any lurkers/classic computers fans from
Ukraine here in this mailing list?


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 12 19:56:02 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 17:56:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
Message-ID: <1339548962.61388.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


Ill wager they must have been very illegal clones Diane. Do you remember anymore specifics? And with her statement I dare anyone to tell me the real early even vanilla clones arent collectible.


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 20:44:09 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:44:09 -0400
Subject: Available VAX
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SH9Vh1kHFpL3XUN6+uq9MQFMGVpoNC9py_uXuDavw0KAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
 <CAEfH1SH9Vh1kHFpL3XUN6+uq9MQFMGVpoNC9py_uXuDavw0KAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddNpLvkZUz1AEXz341pX+miDmu6MK_DLxGvu4PRqD016w@mail.gmail.com>

> Second, HOLY CRAP A DECVOICE. ? Never seen one of those, either.
> Plenty of DECTalk units, in their various forms, but never a Voice.
> IIRC, that was an early voice-rec system, no? ?Or was it just
> voicemail?

I think it was a voice recognition system that did not work worth a damn.

> Me want. ?Me too far away :(

Me going down that way to pick up an old IBM CTC box. Me should think
about this VAX. Me needs another VAX like a hole in the head.

Me also (me thinks) finally unearthed those tapes for the RT.

--
Will



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 21:04:44 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:04:44 -0400
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <4FD759FB.26518.130B53F@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <201206112143.RAA16343@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Jun 11, 12 05:43:49 pm,
 <m1SeWzj-000J4WC@p850ug1> <4FD759FB.26518.130B53F@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A2E5A782-8CD2-4FDB-85CA-86F9C5F2F3F8@gmail.com>

On Jun 12, 2012, at 6:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 12 Jun 2012 at 20:43, Tony Duell wrote:
> 
>>> 
>>>>> Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits,
>>>>> which would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits).
>>>> Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct. 
>>>> Those can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are
>>>> correct),
>>> 
>>> No, it doesn't.  See Wikipedia's Hamming code page (asking for
>>> SECDED redirects to it) for a brief treatment of the subject, or any
>>> of many more detailed treatments of coding theory for more.
>> 
>> I am missing something here... The OP says that adding 3 bits to a 16
>> bit word is enough to be able to correct any single-bit error. 
> 
> I think he meant +1 instead of -1 in the equation.  So 5 bits, not 3. 
> But I assumed that he'd just copied it wrong from memory or source.

Faulty memory, in this case.  I suppose I could use some ECC in the
wetware myself. :-)


- Dave



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 12 21:48:18 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:48:18 -0700
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <BB59FEC5-22B5-4DB1-ABBE-61789FB8ED24@gmail.com>
References: <m1SeXMC-000J4eC@p850ug1>,
 <BB59FEC5-22B5-4DB1-ABBE-61789FB8ED24@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD79D02.25575.2368905@cclist.sydex.com>

On 12 Jun 2012 at 19:55, David Riley wrote:

> Of course, "working reliably" does involve a lot more than just
> eliminating bit errors from cosmic rays, I'll give you that one.

I thought it interesting that the CDC 6600/CYBER 70 series did not 
have any memory error checking whatsoever (the old "Parity is for 
farmers" quote), but that the CYBER 170 series had semiconductor 
memory and SECDED.

>From my recollection, if the old systems passed deadstart 
diagnostics, the chance of seeing a memory error that day was very 
small.

Was early semiconductor memory less reliable than core?  I don't 
recall that part.

--Chuck



From silent700 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 22:02:51 2012
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:02:51 -0500
Subject: Available VAX
In-Reply-To: <CANij+ddNpLvkZUz1AEXz341pX+miDmu6MK_DLxGvu4PRqD016w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
 <CAEfH1SH9Vh1kHFpL3XUN6+uq9MQFMGVpoNC9py_uXuDavw0KAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+ddNpLvkZUz1AEXz341pX+miDmu6MK_DLxGvu4PRqD016w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SHWxPv_x-FejtiJg0X6knKQPMkJf7sf=gxK0jC2WynBxQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 8:44 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
> Me going down that way to pick up an old IBM CTC box. Me should think
> about this VAX. Me needs another VAX like a hole in the head.

Well, if you happen to pick it up, happen to save it and happen to
pass through here again.... :)


> Me also (me thinks) finally unearthed those tapes for the RT.

Ahh, cool, thanks.  I have also got some floppy images for them from
various sources.  Unfortunately they are still sitting in the exact
spot in the garage where they landed when removed from my car.

j


From tshoppa at wmata.com  Tue Jun 12 22:19:45 2012
From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 03:19:45 +0000
Subject: P800 boards
Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B0299BB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local>

>> >> Seems excessive... I seem to recall you need log2(n) - 1 bits, which
>> >> would be 3 bits (32-bit ECC needs 4 bits).
>> > Doesn;t that assume the 'extra' bits are known to be correct.  Those
>> > can be in error too (even if the'real' data bits are correct),
>>
>> No, it doesn't.  See Wikipedia's Hamming code page (asking for SECDED
>> redirects to it) for a brief treatment of the subject, or any of many
>> more detailed treatments of coding theory for more.
>
> I am missing something here... The OP says that adding 3 bits to a 16 bit
> word is enough to be able to correct any single-bit error.
> 
> Now, consider those 16 'real' data bits. If any single one is in error,
> that generates a new 16 bit word, and each of these much give the same
> output 16 bit word after error correction. So it would appear to me that
> there have to at least 17 possible input words (the 'correct' one, and
> the 16 wach with one bit fillped form the corrrect one) that give the
> same 16 bit output -- that is what is meant by correcting  single bit erorr.
> And yet adding 3 bits only gives you 8 times as many possible data words,
> which doesn't seem enough.

The example I know, is the MK11 memory box.

ECC there is done at the single-error correction, double-error detection level on 32-bit words.
This takes 7 check bits.

I find the most satisfying illustration to be the MK11B print set, there's a very nice 11x17
page in large type, illustrating how all this is done with XOR gates. I find this much more digestible
than the usual mathematical equation stuff found in textbooks. That's a brilliant page.
It shows how to, by eye, to read the XOR gate outputs to identify the error syndrome uniquely,
with just a few words. Many fewer words than I used in this paragraph!!!!

If you didn't want double-error detection it would take 6 check bits per 32 bit word. Maybe
the implication that there is 3 check bits per 16 bit words, assumes single-bit correction
and the actual ECC logic is working on 32 bit words. If the ECC was working on 16 bit words,
it would take 5 check bits.

Tim.


From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com  Tue Jun 12 22:47:31 2012
From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:47:31 +1000
Subject: seeking ATT PC 7300 keyboard caps...letter C and Reset/Break
Message-ID: <CANt3_LbuwaXGE6MiWMk6FWV_2kOBNOa=1bB=c56gfiW_-opz7w@mail.gmail.com>

Just acquired a PC 7300 and as I am cursed with always incomplete
keyboards would be interested if anyone has spare keycaps for it
please.

I am missing the letter C keycap and the Reset/Break keycap.

Example picture: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Att-3b1.JPG

I can offer VT100-style keycaps as a trade or paypal.

thanks,
nigel.


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 12 23:00:51 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 21:00:51 -0700
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <A2E5A782-8CD2-4FDB-85CA-86F9C5F2F3F8@gmail.com>
References: <201206112143.RAA16343@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>,
 <4FD759FB.26518.130B53F@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <A2E5A782-8CD2-4FDB-85CA-86F9C5F2F3F8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD7AE03.21546.278F26C@cclist.sydex.com>

On 12 Jun 2012 at 22:04, David Riley wrote:

> Faulty memory, in this case.  I suppose I could use some ECC in the
> wetware myself. :-)

As my wetware dries out and I slowly evolve into a gibbering idiot, 
it gets harder to remember what I worked so hard to learn.  BCH 
codes, for example.  I spent a lot of time on them--and now I can 
barely remember what the BCH stands for.

As one longtime friend would say  "Don't get old--you won't like it."

--Chuck



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Jun 13 00:03:44 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:03:44 -0400
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <91E669858C3B490B9F009828DE03E9AB@hd2600xt6a04f7>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCFbh8LrEzN=m0b8Y_Tfak8kv1gK8uTibybShdrVaofC0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD76706.5010603@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCHzunGMbLgBVz-xFv554d=fB+O+UdsRXdTWgaddB5gbYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <91E669858C3B490B9F009828DE03E9AB@hd2600xt6a04f7>
Message-ID: <4FD81F30.5000500@neurotica.com>

On 06/12/2012 02:41 PM, TeoZ wrote:
> I must be one of the few that liked classic Mac OS and not OSX (why
> remake a decade old user interface?).

  Because it worked well and everyone liked it?  It's not automatically
"bad" because it's not "new", even though that seems to be The American
Way now.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Jun 13 00:08:04 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:08:04 -0400
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <m1SeXBo-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SeXBo-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com>

On 06/12/2012 03:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>   Yes!  That's exactly what I do, but I don't recommend it anymore
>> because the response is usually "I don't have one of those things with
>> LEDs and they're so EXXPEEENNSSIIVEE!!"  (they're like ten
> 
> Err, right...
> 
> While I can understnad not wantign to spend hundreds or thousands of 
> dolalrs on tools and test gear just to get one machine up and running, I 
> do think that spending $10 ro so to get the machine working is well worth 
> it (hint : If you had to pay me for my time in sorting it out, it would 
> be a lot more expensive than that :-)), and anyway, an RS232 tester is 
> something you'll ened aagian and again if you work on classic computers. 

  Yes.

> Can you stil lget tyhose LED adapters? At one time just about every PC 
> shop sold them, but now, since RS232 is out of fashion, I;'ve nto seen 
> them on sale for several years. 

  PC shops sell new PCs and games, that's about it.  The world's
marketplace has moved to eBay.  You can get them (brand new of
course...a lot of people think something is "used" or "old" if the sales
venue is eBay) all day long, cheap, on eBay.

> It's not hard to make one, but...

  ...but a complete waste of time, unless you've got nothing better to do.

>> bucks...cheapasses)  But yes, that works perfectly.  Something needs to
>> be driving TxD, and something needs to be driving RxD.  Which is which,
>> and what state they're in, is unimportant if the goal is to get it talking.
> 
> The other trikc is to see what flow control lines are being driven, and 
> it noting works, to try loppign them back to what they normally pair with 
> (e.g. if pin 4 -- RTS -- is being driven by a device and you can't get it 
> to sand anything, try connecting RTS to CTS (4 to 5)). You migth end up 
> with a thing that drops data due to buffer overrun from time to time, but 
> you sort that out once you've got it sending something.

  I literally cannot remember the last time I had to do anything with
other than 2, 3, and 7.  Even one of the controller designs I inherited
at work had a bunch of firmware to manage RTS and CTS to talk to a GSM
modem at 115Kbps, and it works better with that code commented out.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed Jun 13 00:13:40 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:13:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: interesting Quora post on Marklar
In-Reply-To: <4FD81F30.5000500@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jun 13,
 12 01:03:44 am"
Message-ID: <201206130513.q5D5DeLj14352386@floodgap.com>

> > I must be one of the few that liked classic Mac OS and not OSX (why
> > remake a decade old user interface?).
> 
> Because it worked well and everyone liked it?  It's not automatically
> "bad" because it's not "new", even though that seems to be The American
> Way now.

It's always a breath of fresh air to be in OS 9, though my daily desktop
OS X is still 10.4 (and will always be, as long as my daily driver Macs
remain PowerPC), so I don't have the greyrot that set in with 10.5.

It's fun taking an OS 9 laptop on the road and getting lots of fascinated
looks. And, omg, a spatial Finder. What a concept.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Wouldn't your life be simpler if you were reading this on a Commodore 64? --


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Jun 13 00:15:42 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 23:15:42 -0600
Subject: Fox TV shows (was: interesting Quora post on Marklar)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120828580.27438@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <4FD610F6.90303@bitsavers.org>
 <201206111626.q5BGQITH13304010@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCEkCT+4zJzDe_9R4mrNx_dq89ge_KwA9GvF9HTy8uiAJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD67172.8010005@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCEZnNRa_SvaLBXdqaAD3DvXELXBThpC_qkVJZY8Xj0USQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD6A594.9040101@bitsavers.org>
 <CAMTenCGNSc3qXwC+2GJhK-zbdn=ui+Lb-uRCi6rDosGUTcq0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD75E24.1000000@neurotica.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120612350.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <49AB486BC59345D5BDDFB36013D89C91@hd2600xt6a04f7>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120828580.27438@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <E1Sefvi-0007Ht-Eo@shell.xmission.com>


In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120828580.27438 at grumble.deltasoft.com>,
    Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes:

> > Never heard of Fringe? 
> >
> I'll see your Fringe and raise you a Firefly. :)

Firefly + Fringe = Fringe,
i.e. Firely is noise compared to Fringe's signal

Firefly is *WAY* overrated for what it was.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed Jun 13 00:16:27 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:16:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jun 13,
 12 01:08:04 am"
Message-ID: <201206130516.q5D5GR4x13697064@floodgap.com>

> > Can you stil lget tyhose LED adapters? At one time just about every PC 
> > shop sold them, but now, since RS232 is out of fashion, I;'ve nto seen 
> > them on sale for several years. 

Fry's still carries them. Not super cheap, but I still see a few in stock
in the two Fry's shops I frequent.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- A different taste in jokes is a great strain on the affections. -- G. Eliot


From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 00:27:47 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 07:27:47 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B0299BB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local>
References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B0299BB@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5Sn5JjNY84+1SCYY4VA0OWT4AjO44G8Q=nR6dmKCKuRqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 5:19 AM, Shoppa, Tim <tshoppa at wmata.com> wrote:

> If you didn't want double-error detection it would take 6 check bits per 32 bit word. Maybe
> the implication that there is 3 check bits per 16 bit words, assumes single-bit correction
> and the actual ECC logic is working on 32 bit words. If the ECC was working on 16 bit words,
> it would take 5 check bits.

This thread got started after I put some pictures and descriptions of
the P800 cards online. Then this thread got started with Jos's
question:


                "Any idea why a 16 bits system would have a 21 bit
wide semiconductor memory?"

So, the thread started with hardware that has 5 check bits. The idea
of 3 checks bits possibly being enough for ECC was introduced later,
then discredited.

Camiel


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Wed Jun 13 00:44:34 2012
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:44:34 -0400
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
References: <m1SeXFR-000J4cC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <84087A8EACC84FB9844E13B895D8BDD5@hd2600xt6a04f7>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port



>> Product Description Part Number: 482560001 New, Used, Refurbished, and
>> Repair of AMPHENOL RJ45-M TO MMJ-F ADAPT.
>
> Are you sure this has anythign to do with ethernet? My guess is that it's
> sued to linke DEC serial ports (MMJs) to the modern 'structured wiring'
> found in soem buildings. You'd use them in pairs, one ant each end of a
> building cable so as to connect the 2 serial devices.
>
> And, please, it's not RJ45 unless you are taling about a particular US
> telephone wiring scheme. 10baseT ethernet, etc does not use an RJ45
> conenctor. It's an 8p8c.
>
> -tony

I have no clue what they were used for. When I got my MicroVAX I looked 
around for months and found a couple MJJ cables and some VT-525s plus 
keyboards so I just use them without adapters. Those adapters were in the 
box with the cables so I snagged them too (recycler).








From tpresence at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 12 17:10:00 2012
From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:10:00 -0600
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <m1SeWq0-000J4TC@p850ug1>
References: <1BA44B06-C896-490C-A209-BA9CAFA6F6EE@gmail.com> from "David
Message-ID: <BLU157-W49923FF5E5EF022B36ACF8A2F60@phx.gbl>


In interest of having the quickest and most reliable solution, I took a look into the dec vt1300 and VR320 x-terminal I have, and found out that not only can it do x-windows, but if you ensure the rear s-3 switch is in the correct position (down), you can connect the console from the vax 3900 directly to the printer port of the vt1300, and use the "DTE" command from the vt1300 boot logic to get a dumb terminal.

Works wonders.  This eliminates the need for me to connect the vax systems to my wyse 60 enitrely, especially since the dec keyboard has additional gold keys that make things much easier in the long run.  Nothing like having to figure out that the macintosh thin keyboard keypad "-" character is the "do" character to get into EDT/TPU or EVE command mode.

Kevin

> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk
> Subject: Re: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:33:07 +0100
> 
> > Well, of course, if you want to be a purist about it you can always
> > replace the unwieldy mess with the correct cable later, when people
> > are actually going to *see* it.  Getting it running is hardly the
> 
> _I_ am much more intereseted in how the machines work, what they were 
> like to use, and so on, rather than what they look like. So while I'd not 
> want an unreliable kludge (such as bare wires that could short, or 
> connections that keep on coming adrift), I'd have no problem with making 
> an adapter cable and keeping it in use. It's not a permanent 
> modification, it doesn't damage anything in any way.
> 
> > time to be a stickler unless it's actually going to damage something.
> 
> Agreed. The things I am totally against (like boardswapping or powering up 
> an unknown machine to see ehat happens), I am against because they can 
> cause damage to classic comnputers. Try-it-and-see wiring of an RS232 
> port will not.
> 
> -tony
 		 	   		  

From tpresence at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 12 17:14:04 2012
From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:14:04 -0600
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <m1SeXBo-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
References: <4FD69672.1090105@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 11,
 12 09:08:02 pm,<m1SeXBo-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <BLU157-W10B5ECBFD546286FA4611BA2F60@phx.gbl>



> Can you stil lget tyhose LED adapters? At one time just about every PC 
> shop sold them, but now, since RS232 is out of fashion, I;'ve nto seen 
> them on sale for several years. 
> 
I do have one of these devices in a 25 pin personality.  My problem wasn't that I didn't know what pin was what on the system, the problem was what pin was what on the connectors I wanted to buy.

Ultimately, I am pretty damn sure from my research that the DEC H8575-D adapter was the correct one.  Since I had the pinouts, it was basically understanding what pins go to what.

Kevin
 		 	   		  

From tpresence at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 12 18:12:08 2012
From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 17:12:08 -0600
Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around
Message-ID: <BLU157-W9397E08E6A770CFA9F508A2F60@phx.gbl>


I have looked through bitsavers and some other old vax manual repositories online and I haven't found a manual for the DEC VT1300.  I did an installation and service manual for the VR320 monitors I have, but they only cover the display.  I have worked out alot of details about the vt1300 system, and have gotten one working 100%, but haven't figured out what terminal emulation the terminal personality of the unit uses.  It works 95% with the vax 3900 I have it attached to, but from time to time I see what I assume as vt100 control codes in the output stream.  I assumed that that unit used vt100 emulation out of the box, and that the vax console would go this way as well, but perhaps I'm wrong.  It could be that the vax is vt52 some other terminal type by default, or that the 1300 does vt102, or vt220...

Kevin
 		 	   		  

From brian at polibyte.com  Wed Jun 13 00:51:48 2012
From: brian at polibyte.com (Brian Pitts)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:51:48 -0400
Subject: Available VAX
In-Reply-To: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
Message-ID: <4FD82A74.6060609@polibyte.com>

On 06/12/2012 12:39 AM, Brian Pitts wrote:
> Down in Macon, GA my dad has a DEC that we would like to send to a good
> home. He purchased this several years ago from a man in north
> Georgia who said it spend the 1990s answering the phone at a utility
> company. My dad kept it in his classroom while he was a high school
> technology teacher, but now that he's no longer teaching it's gathering
> dust on his carport.
> 
> There's a VAXstation 3, DECvoice unit, two hard drives, and a tape drive
> in an enclosure on wheels. There's also a VT420 terminal. You'd need a
> truck, ramp, and at least two strong people to load and unload this.
> 
> You can see some pictures of the equipment at
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/puerexmachina/sets/72157622981044137/
> 
> Please pass this on to anyone you think might be interested!

I should mention that I don't know much about the hardware myself, so if
anyone can look at the pictures and clue me in I'd appreciate it!

Although I don't have experience with freight shipping, I'm willing to
try it it someone is interested in the system but cannot pick it up.
You'd need to cover the cost. If I can't find a taker soon I fear this
system will end up in the scrap heap, as my dad wants it gone and I
don't have the space for it.

-- 
All the best,
Brian Pitts


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 01:15:42 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 03:15:42 -0300
Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout
References: <m1SeXBo-000J4ZC@p850ug1> <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook>


    Dear sirs,

    As many of you may know, it is next to impossible to find something 
apple-related in Brazil, and even worse to //c. Of course I want to put a 
memory expansion on it, but these are rare, and (insert expletive here) 
expensive. I want to roll my own, but I was unable to find a memory 
expansion bus pinout on the net. Any tips?

    Thanks
    Alexandre Souza

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br 



From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jun 13 01:42:07 2012
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 08:42:07 +0200
Subject: Available VAX
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SH9Vh1kHFpL3XUN6+uq9MQFMGVpoNC9py_uXuDavw0KAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
 <CAEfH1SH9Vh1kHFpL3XUN6+uq9MQFMGVpoNC9py_uXuDavw0KAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120613064206.GA21599@Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 04:38:02PM -0500, Jason T wrote:
> Two things I notice here:  first, the odd wide side panels on the (I
> assume) low-boy corporate cabinet.  Never seen those before.  Are they
> just cosmetic or do they serve a purpose.

Airflow. Look at the fans on the side of the BA boxes and note that the 
air intake is on the front left and outtake is backside right. It must 
have been added for the microvax which I assume produce more heat then a 
microPDP-11 in the same rack.

I've only seen it in pictures before. E.g:

http://www.olddec.nl/Thanks-41-Years/vax-vms-timeline-1.jpg

/P


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Jun 13 01:49:01 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 02:49:01 -0400
Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around
In-Reply-To: <BLU157-W9397E08E6A770CFA9F508A2F60@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU157-W9397E08E6A770CFA9F508A2F60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4FD837DD.6050807@neurotica.com>

On 06/12/2012 07:12 PM, Kevin Reynolds wrote:
> I have looked through bitsavers and some other old vax manual
> repositories online and I haven't found a manual for the DEC VT1300.
> I did an installation and service manual for the VR320 monitors I
> have, but they only cover the display.  I have worked out alot of
> details about the vt1300 system, and have gotten one working 100%,
> but haven't figured out what terminal emulation the terminal
> personality of the unit uses.  It works 95% with the vax 3900 I have
> it attached to, but from time to time I see what I assume as vt100
> control codes in the output stream.  I assumed that that unit used
> vt100 emulation out of the box, and that the vax console would go
> this way as well, but perhaps I'm wrong.  It could be that the vax is
> vt52 some other terminal type by default, or that the 1300 does
> vt102, or vt220...

  I assume you're running VMS?

  What exactly are you seeing?  It's possible (even likely) that you're
seeing overruns.  Try dropping the baud rate, just experimentally, to
see if the problem goes away.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From microcode at zoho.com  Wed Jun 13 05:29:52 2012
From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 10:29:52 +0000
Subject: seeking ATT PC 7300 keyboard caps...letter C and Reset/Break
In-Reply-To: <CANt3_LbuwaXGE6MiWMk6FWV_2kOBNOa=1bB=c56gfiW_-opz7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANt3_LbuwaXGE6MiWMk6FWV_2kOBNOa=1bB=c56gfiW_-opz7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201206131030.q5DATv3U036519@billy.ezwind.net>

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:47:31 +1000
Nigel Williams <nigel.d.williams at gmail.com> wrote:

> Just acquired a PC 7300 and as I am cursed with always incomplete
> keyboards would be interested if anyone has spare keycaps for it
> please.
> 
> I am missing the letter C keycap and the Reset/Break keycap.
> 
> Example picture:
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Att-3b1.JPG
> 
> I can offer VT100-style keycaps as a trade or paypal.

Clickykeyboards.com would be a place to check for this if nobody on the
list can source them. Send him an email if you don't see it on his site.

He's a good guy, I've done business with him before.



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 08:07:12 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 09:07:12 -0400
Subject: Available VAX
In-Reply-To: <4FD82A74.6060609@polibyte.com>
References: <4FD6C819.7070901@polibyte.com>
	<4FD82A74.6060609@polibyte.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddeqExY1baSxT_WB7NgMadtxF02S9cB7-4V35bSN6aqyA@mail.gmail.com>

> Although I don't have experience with freight shipping, I'm willing to
> try it it someone is interested in the system but cannot pick it up.
> You'd need to cover the cost. If I can't find a taker soon I fear this
> system will end up in the scrap heap, as my dad wants it gone and I
> don't have the space for it.

How soon is soon?

--
Will


From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com  Wed Jun 13 08:22:24 2012
From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:22:24 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...
In-Reply-To: <60F7C83E-3C40-4545-A1DD-124412CC191B@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <60F7C83E-3C40-4545-A1DD-124412CC191B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F53FBCB6EBF542238933A673F5837936@Edicons.local>

Sheeesh!

Regards 
?
Rod Smallwood
?
?

-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Mark Benson
Sent: 12 June 2012 19:40
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...


On 12 Jun 2012, at 14:06, Gene Buckle wrote:

> Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards.  Pretty slick:
> 
> http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster

I have a project lined up for RetroChallenge 2012 to do a 4-machine SimH VAX
cluster using Raspberry Pi but this guy beat me to it on the back of me only
having 1 board. I wonder if he;d want to co-op on the project and teach me
about VMScluster ;)

-- 

Mark Benson

http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK

Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.







From bryan.pope at comcast.net  Wed Jun 13 08:29:19 2012
From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (bryan.pope at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:29:19 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Fox TV shows (was: interesting Quora post on Marklar)
In-Reply-To: <E1Sefvi-0007Ht-Eo@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <1590030023.65977.1339594158062.JavaMail.root@sz0028a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard" <legalize at xmission.com> 
To: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 1:15:42 AM 
Subject: Fox TV shows (was: interesting Quora post on Marklar) 


In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120828580.27438 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, 
Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: 

>> > Never heard of Fringe? 
>> > 
>> I'll see your Fringe and raise you a Firefly. :) 

>Firefly + Fringe = Fringe, 
>i.e. Firely is noise compared to Fringe's signal 

>Firefly is *WAY* overrated for what it was. 

Heresy! You obviously are a purple belly. 

Cheers, 

Bryan 



From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 08:33:44 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:33:44 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEpeSdjo9LWfE-6h2rDwQkLeTwKkf2DEcTjWraX0zYwNw@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 June 2012 14:06, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
> Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards. ?Pretty slick:
>
> http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster

I thought that was pretty elite, as one might say, myself - and
Tweeted it, where it's now spreading quite well. :?)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From md.benson at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 08:43:22 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:43:22 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...
In-Reply-To: <32774934.67626.1339594536815.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcbev13>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <60F7C83E-3C40-4545-A1DD-124412CC191B@gmail.com>
 <32774934.67626.1339594536815.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcbev13>
Message-ID: <-2777647571068331104@unknownmsgid>

On 13 Jun 2012, at 14:26, Rod Smallwood <rodsmallwood at btconnect.com> wrote:

> Sheeesh!

To clarify, I'm not so much bitter that he 'got there first', just
that I couldn't do it yet because I only have 1 board. I'd have
started by now but I have no more boards. I am thinking about using my
Atom PC and VIA PC as nodes until I have more boards bu that's not
ideal, although I can run 2 nodes on the Atom.

I have a LOT of reading and learning to do before I can even start so
I can't exactly complain about him beating me to the post :P

-- 
Mark Benson

http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson


From md.benson at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 08:49:30 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:49:30 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...
In-Reply-To: <14364190.60883.1339595035214.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcgd5>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <14364190.60883.1339595035214.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcgd5>
Message-ID: <-9129299584814251327@unknownmsgid>

On 13 Jun 2012, at 14:40, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12 June 2012 14:06, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>> Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards.  Pretty slick:
>>
>> http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster
>
> I thought that was pretty elite, as one might say, myself - and
> Tweeted it, where it's now spreading quite well.

I hope you tweet about mine, I will be blogging it as I go and posting
video hopefully so plenty of interest! :) Follow @DECtecInfo :)

Hopefully mine will have more nodes and will be rack-mountable with
ports to the outside world... maybe ;)

-- 
Mark Benson

http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson


From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 09:01:16 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:01:16 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...
In-Reply-To: <-9129299584814251327@unknownmsgid>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <14364190.60883.1339595035214.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcgd5>
 <-9129299584814251327@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE4hSNR_sOOf4gFas25jghvP=UgBuuFtSLonV1xfPFT4A@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 June 2012 14:49, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 13 Jun 2012, at 14:40, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 12 June 2012 14:06, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>>> Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards. ?Pretty slick:
>>>
>>> http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster
>>
>> I thought that was pretty elite, as one might say, myself - and
>> Tweeted it, where it's now spreading quite well.
>
> I hope you tweet about mine, I will be blogging it as I go and posting
> video hopefully so plenty of interest! :) Follow @DECtecInfo :)

Roger wilco.

> Hopefully mine will have more nodes and will be rack-mountable with
> ports to the outside world... maybe ;)

O_o

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 13 09:45:33 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 07:45:33 -0700
Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout
In-Reply-To: <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <m1SeXBo-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
 <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com>,<131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W38A499C3E143B9CD99F073A3F50@phx.gbl>



 

> From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com
> 
> 
> Dear sirs,
> 
> As many of you may know, it is next to impossible to find something 
> apple-related in Brazil, and even worse to //c. Of course I want to put a 
> memory expansion on it, but these are rare, and (insert expletive here) 
> expensive. I want to roll my own, but I was unable to find a memory 
> expansion bus pinout on the net. Any tips?
> 
> Thanks
> Alexandre Souza
> 
> ---

Hi
 Is the //c connector any different than a IIe?
Dwight
  		 	   		  

From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 09:58:44 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 11:58:44 -0300
Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout
References: <m1SeXBo-000J4ZC@p850ug1> <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com>,
 <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <SNT129-W38A499C3E143B9CD99F073A3F50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <176901cd4975$0e78ee20$6400a8c0@tababook>

> Is the //c connector any different than a IIe?

    AFAIK yes. At least the connector type (board edge in IIe, pin header in 
IIc) but I just discovered my IIc is the first version without the internal 
memory expansion connector...Project aborted :( 



From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Jun 13 10:02:34 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 08:02:34 -0700
Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W38A499C3E143B9CD99F073A3F50@phx.gbl>
References: <m1SeXBo-000J4ZC@p850ug1> <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com>,
 <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <SNT129-W38A499C3E143B9CD99F073A3F50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4FD8AB8A.6070201@brouhaha.com>

dwight elvey wrote:
>   Is the //c connector any different than a IIe?

Yes.  And IIRC, the //c+ connector is different than the //c connector.



From ian_primus at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 13 10:24:43 2012
From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 08:24:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <84087A8EACC84FB9844E13B895D8BDD5@hd2600xt6a04f7>
Message-ID: <1339601083.2617.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 6/13/12, TeoZ <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:

> I have no clue what they were used for. When I got my
> MicroVAX I looked around for months and found a couple MJJ
> cables and some VT-525s plus keyboards so I just use them
> without adapters. Those adapters were in the box with the
> cables so I snagged them too (recycler).

Adapters to go from DB25 to "RJ45" [1] connectors are very, very common - however there is no standard pinout for RS232 on RJ45. When you get such adapters new, they are sold as kits - the RJ45 jack has wires coming from it, crimped onto pins that are left loose. You are required to plug the pins into the DB25 in the required configuration. As such, when you find used adapters, they're likely to be in any possible configuration - you'll have to pop them apart and see how they're wired, and rewire where necessary.

On the subject of MMJ - they are physically the same size as a 6p6c modular plug, so you can easily file the clip off such a plug and use it in an MMJ jack - it won't secure in, of course, but it'll work. Not that MMJ's stay in particularly well as it is - that stupid offset clip means that the connector sits in at an angle sometimes, and then occasionally makes poor contact. The only real MMJ cable I have has issues plugging into my MicroVax 3900's console port - which is slightly damaged from corrosion from the battery. It'll randomly stop working, and you have to remove and reinsert it. The filed-down 6p6c plug doesn't have this problem.

DEC had lots of great ideas. MMJ was most definitely not one of them. Heh.

-Ian

[1] Yes, I know that "RJ45" refers to a specific wiring of a particular Registered Jack, not the 8p8c connector itself. But the tech industry has standardized on referring to 8p8c modular plugs and jacks as RJ45 - regardless of the term's initial meaning. This is similar to referring to 9 pin DSUB connectors as DB9 - despite the shell size not being B, it's E - the correct name is DE9. But the majority of the industry calls that connector a DB9. "Common usage" and "exact, correct, technical term" aren't always the same thing.


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Jun 13 13:11:31 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:11:31 -0600
Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around
In-Reply-To: <BLU157-W9397E08E6A770CFA9F508A2F60@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU157-W9397E08E6A770CFA9F508A2F60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E1Ses2V-0008S8-6T@shell.xmission.com>


In article <BLU157-W9397E08E6A770CFA9F508A2F60 at phx.gbl>,
    Kevin Reynolds <tpresence at hotmail.com> writes:

> I have looked through bitsavers and some other old vax manual repositories
> online and I haven't found a manual for the DEC VT1300.

Did you try looking here:
<http://manx.classiccmp.org/mirror/antonio>
<http://manx.classiccmp.org/mirror/mds-199909/>

These aren't all in the manx database.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 13 12:48:46 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:48:46 +0100 (BST)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <4FD759FB.26518.130B53F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 12, 12 03:02:19 pm
Message-ID: <m1Serga-000J4TC@p850ug1>


[Number of bits required for SECDED]

> I think he meant +1 instead of -1 in the equation.  So 5 bits, not 3. 
>  But I assumed that he'd just copied it wrong from memory or source.

OK, that makes a lot of sense, and I agree it's possible to do SECDED on  
16 bit word with 5 'extra' bits, as indeed these Philips boards seem to 
do. I couldn't see how to do it with onyl 3 extra bits, and indeed it 
appears it can't be done.

It was not my intention to insult anyone, of course. But if somebody 
posts something that I can't figure out, I will ask about it. Most of the 
time I'll be the idiot for not being able to figure it out, but by having 
it explained I'll learn something.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 13 12:57:14 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:57:14 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 12, 12 03:11:26 pm
Message-ID: <m1Serol-000J4WC@p850ug1>

> I take "clone" at its face value the same way as I view "pregnant".  
> You either are or you're something else.  An Eagle 1600 runs MS-DOS 
> but is not a PC clone.

Like you, I use the word 'clone'to mean a machine with the same hardware 
interface and same ROM BIOS calls as the IBM machine it claims to be a 
lcone of, and thus it runs the same OS (yuo can boot said machine from a 
disk that will boot the IBM machine) and which runs the same software. Of 
coruse soem early clones _did_ have incompatibilities.

I tend to use the term 'IBM incompatible' for an 80x86-based personal 
computer that is not compatible with the similar IBM machine. Things like 
the Rainbow, HP150, Apricot, etc. There are several levels of 
incompatibility  -- the hardware may be differnt (so that programs that 
'hit the mrtal' won;t run, the BIOS calls may be different (so that 
programs thtat use said calls won't run), etc.

Of coruse ther are plenty of other machines that are not compatible with 
any IBM, but I don;'t tend to refer to thsoe as 'IBM incompatibles'. I've 
also been known to use the term 'IBM compatible' in a jocular way, for 
example when I said I'd jsut been given an 'IBM compatible ethernet 
interface'. This happened to be a Storagetek unit to link to an IBM 370 
channel.

As for the original question, IIRC if the IBM bios fails to find a boot 
device, it calls a particular software interrupt, which is set to the 
cold start point of the BASIC ROM. Whether this ROM would work on 
not-100%-compatibles depends on just what that ROM does about directly 
accessign hardwre. 

-tony




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 13 12:59:46 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:59:46 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <BLU157-W10B5ECBFD546286FA4611BA2F60@phx.gbl> from "Kevin
 Reynolds" at Jun 12, 12 04:14:04 pm
Message-ID: <m1SerrD-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> 
> 
> 
> > Can you stil lget tyhose LED adapters? At one time just about every PC=20
> > shop sold them=2C but now=2C since RS232 is out of fashion=2C I=3B've nto=
>  seen=20
> > them on sale for several years.=20
> >=20
> I do have one of these devices in a 25 pin personality.  My problem wasn't =

I'ev never seen RS232 tersters or breakout boxes with anything other than 
DB25 conenctors. Were there ever ones with DE9 connectors, for example?

> that I didn't know what pin was what on the system=2C the problem was what =
> pin was what on the connectors I wanted to buy.

Sure. The point of my (and others) post was that if you get _any_ adapter 
you can then use the RS232 tester to figure otu which is TxD and which is 
RxD, and if necessary make up an adapter using easy-to-get DB25 
conenctors to lin kit to your terminal. That might not be as neat as 
having the right adapter, but it will get the thing working.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 13 13:03:32 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 19:03:32 +0100 (BST)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <BB59FEC5-22B5-4DB1-ABBE-61789FB8ED24@gmail.com> from "David
 Riley" at Jun 12, 12 07:55:42 pm
Message-ID: <m1Serus-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

> Plenty of PCs support ECC RAM. Generally on the server/workstation 
> side of things, but I'd hardly call it uncommon. 

While a machien designed as a server might well have the same 
architecture as a PC, and be able to run the same software, I am not sure 
I'd call it a PC :-)

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 13 13:26:07 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 19:26:07 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 13,
 12 01:08:04 am
Message-ID: <m1SesGj-000J4dC@p850ug1>

> 
> > Can you still get those LED adapters? At one time just about every PC 
> > shop sold them, but now, since RS232 is out of fashion, I've nto seen 
> > them on sale for several years. 
> 
>   PC shops sell new PCs and games, that's about it.  The world's

'Twas always the way. I very rarely go to such places since they're 
unlikely to have anything I want. Even when my PC wasn't _quite_ os 
old-fashioned, they enver had the cable or wahtever that I wanted...

I can rememebr one time I visitied such a palce, they had a few shelves 
for 'operating systems'. All that was there was the installation and 
upgrade kits for Windows. They sold Linux, but classed it as a 'book' 
(!). Hmmm...
 
> marketplace has moved to eBay.  You can get them (brand new of
> course...a lot of people think something is "used" or "old" if the sales
> venue is eBay) all day long, cheap, on eBay.

OK...

> 
> > It's not hard to make one, but...
> 
>   ...but a complete waste of time, unless you've got nothing better to do.

Well ,that depends... It's not a waste of time if they;re no logner 
avaialble. And the one I got was unrleiable from new due to an excessive 
numebr of dry joints inside. I resoldered the lot and it's been fine for 
getting on for 20 years. Resodlering one probably takes less time than 
making one, but...

> > The other trikc is to see what flow control lines are being driven, and 
> > it noting works, to try loppign them back to what they normally pair with 
> > (e.g. if pin 4 -- RTS -- is being driven by a device and you can't get it 
> > to sand anything, try connecting RTS to CTS (4 to 5)). You migth end up 
> > with a thing that drops data due to buffer overrun from time to time, but 
> > you sort that out once you've got it sending something.
> 
>   I literally cannot remember the last time I had to do anything with
> other than 2, 3, and 7.  Even one of the controller designs I inherited

I can. It was a couple of months back. I'd bought and then repaired a
piece of test gear [1] which had a helpfully-labelled 'RS232 (DTE)'
connector on the back. And it was clear from the setup options on the
display how to make it use the RS232 port rather than the GPIB prot, and 
how to set the baud rate. So I did, and found it would send nothing. 
Strapping the handshake lines back got it to output a prompt to the 
terminal. Alas I've not got any further, I can't figure out what commands 
to send.

[1] A rather nice telephone line simulator. We talked about those here 
soem time back as a device for woriking with and testing old modems. I 
decided I wanted somthing I could use for this and came up wit ha sort-of 
design. I then foudn there were 3 options, all of which would cost aobut 
the same : 

Make the design I'd come up with and debug it

Buy a cheap, new device for the purpose, which wouldn't do anything more 
and would probably be hard to repair if it failed 

Buy a non-working professional line simulator and repair it.

On the grounds the last would provide me with the best device in the end, 
I went that route. If I'd not been able to repair it, I'd guessed that 
many of the bits in it would be useful for my homebrew idea. As it 
happened, it took me quite some time to find the fault and then a few 
pence worth of parts (a couple of LM311s and an LM337) and a few minutes 
to fix it. Well, there are 6 microprocessors and a total of over 200 ICs 
spred over 10 PCBs in the darn thing ;-)

-tony



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 13 14:04:49 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:04:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: seeking ATT PC 7300 keyboard caps...letter C and Reset/Break
In-Reply-To: <201206131030.q5DATv3U036519@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <CANt3_LbuwaXGE6MiWMk6FWV_2kOBNOa=1bB=c56gfiW_-opz7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <201206131030.q5DATv3U036519@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <1339614289.60208.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

perhaps th6300 used siimilar keycaps. Tecnically I have a beat up Xerox 6060 k/b (also made by Olivetti), to go w/my beatup 6060, but I'm not ready to give it up yet. Like a fool I threw the b/w monitor out. 



________________________________
 From: "microcode at zoho.com" <microcode at zoho.com>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org 
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: seeking ATT PC 7300 keyboard caps...letter C and Reset/Break
 
On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:47:31 +1000
Nigel Williams <nigel.d.williams at gmail.com> wrote:

> Just acquired a PC 7300 and as I am cursed with always incomplete
> keyboards would be interested if anyone has spare keycaps for it
> please.
> 
> I am missing the letter C keycap and the Reset/Break keycap.
> 
> Example picture:
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Att-3b1.JPG
> 
> I can offer VT100-style keycaps as a trade or paypal.

Clickykeyboards.com would be a place to check for this if nobody on the
list can source them. Send him an email if you don't see it on his site.

He's a good guy, I've done business with him before.

From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 13 14:20:16 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:20:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <1339528708.1267.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <1339615216.21817.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On 12 Jun 2012 at 12:18, Chris Tofu wrote:


I take "clone" at its face value the same way as I view "pregnant".? 
You either are or you're something else.? An Eagle 1600 runs MS-DOS 
but is not a PC clone.

C: Well I did use clone in my op. It's often used in different ways. I 
hadn't thought people would always revert to giving the most obvious 
answer to a question. Of course if you made a totally identical clone 
mobo of a 5150/5160, the roms would work. My question was (or should 
have been) given? an empty socket (as is the case on a 5150/5160 mobo, 
rarely anywhere else) or a means to extend that bus to accept additional
 roms via a plug in board, would you expect BASIC roms to work in say a 
Tandy 2000, AT $ T 6300, Compaq Portable (original), Zenith Z-100/120, 
etc. Wouldn't most of the lower level stuff be BIOS driven? 

?And while there are not degrees of pregnant, there are degrees of clonage. Looser usage albeit. Did Compaq *not* seek to clone the operation of an IBM PC? From a s/w vantage, it most certainly was a clone. But I'll agree a true clone is mostly and exact one.

?Did you mean the Columbia MPC1600? I don't personally know of an Eagle 1600, unless you're referring to a little seen portable unit.

But I don't follow the rest of your post--perhaps if you used shorter 
sentences...

C: Ok. I will. Next time. Promise. No more. Then two. Words between. Periods. Period.

From db at db.net  Wed Jun 13 14:46:28 2012
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:46:28 -0500
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <m1Serol-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com> <m1Serol-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20120613194628.GA97265@night.db.net>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 06:57:14PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
> > I take "clone" at its face value the same way as I view "pregnant".  
> > You either are or you're something else.  An Eagle 1600 runs MS-DOS 
> > but is not a PC clone.

The amusing thing about BASIC was the assumption of programmers that
low ram was available as scratch memory. poke peek poke style.
The moment it ran on a 3rd party vendor clone BASIC, it would often
(not always) blow up.

COMPAQ and Hyperion Dynalogic solved this by relocating the BASIC at
run time to high memory. ick ick icky poo. But amusing.


- Diane
-- 
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db
  Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth?


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 13 14:53:18 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:53:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <m1Serol-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 12, 12 03:11:26 pm <m1Serol-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <1339617198.84977.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

As for the original question, IIRC if the IBM bios fails to find a boot device, it calls a particular software interrupt, which is set to the 

cold start point of the BASIC ROM. Whether this ROM would work on 
not-100%-compatibles depends on just what that ROM does about directly 
accessign hardwre. 

-tony

?C: But in general what does the IBM 5150/5160 specific BASIC rom do regarding addressing specific h/w? That's the crux of the matter I guess. If I could run TI Pro GW-BASIC on my XP laptop (several years ago) to whatever degree, something tells me BASIC accesses the h/w via BIOS or DOS calls.

From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 13 15:07:21 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 13:07:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <20120613194628.GA97265@night.db.net>
References: <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com>
 <m1Serol-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120613194628.GA97265@night.db.net>
Message-ID: <1339618041.97226.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>





________________________________
 From: Diane Bruce <db at db.net>

COMPAQ and Hyperion Dynalogic solved this by relocating the BASIC at
run time to high memory. ick ick icky poo. But amusing.

C: High in DOS memory, or otherwise? Some computers made 768k or even 896k available to DOS. 


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Jun 13 15:23:58 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:23:58 -0600
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <1339615216.21817.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339528708.1267.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com>
 <1339615216.21817.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1Seu6g-0003dr-VU@shell.xmission.com>


In article <1339615216.21817.YahooMailNeo at web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
    Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> writes:

> On 12 Jun 2012 at 12:18, Chris Tofu wrote:
> 
> 
> I take "clone" at its face value the same way as I view "pregnant".  
> You either are or you're something else.  An Eagle 1600 runs MS-DOS 
> but is not a PC clone.
> 
> C: Well I did use clone in my op. It's often used in different ways. I 
> hadn't thought people would always revert to giving the most obvious 
> answer to a question. Of course if you made a totally identical clone 
> mobo of a 5150/5160, the roms would work. My question was (or should 
> have been) given  an empty socket (as is the case on a 5150/5160 mobo, 
> rarely anywhere else) or a means to extend that bus to accept additional
>  roms via a plug in board, would you expect BASIC roms to work in say a 
> Tandy 2000, AT $ T 6300, Compaq Portable (original), Zenith Z-100/120, 
> etc. Wouldn't most of the lower level stuff be BIOS driven? 
> 
>  And while there are not degrees of pregnant, there are degrees of clonage. L
ooser usage albeit. Did Compaq *not* seek to clone the operation of an IBM PC? 
>From a s/w vantage, it most certainly was a clone. But I'll agree a true clone 
is mostly and exact one.
> 
>  Did you mean the Columbia MPC1600? I don't personally know of an Eagle 1600,
 unless you're referring to a little seen portable unit.
> 
> But I don't follow the rest of your post--perhaps if you used shorter 
> sentences...
> 
> C: Ok. I will. Next time. Promise. No more. Then two. Words between. Periods.
 Period.
> 

Did noone ever teach you how to quote conversations in email?
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Jun 13 15:44:03 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:44:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <m1SerrD-000J4YC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SerrD-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201206132044.QAA02317@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> that I didn't know what pin was what on the system, the problem was
>> what pin was what on the connectors I wanted to buy.
> Sure.  The point of my (and others) post was that if you get _any_
> adapter you can then use the RS232 tester to figure otu which is TxD
> and which is RxD, and if necessary make up an adapter using
> easy-to-get DB25 conenctors to lin kit to your terminal.  That might
> not be as neat as having the right adapter, but it will get the thing
> working.

...usually.

I've seen two things which could break this.

(1) Some devices require some of the modem control signals in order to
operate at all.  Hooking up just TxD, RxD, and GND won't be enough in
such cases.

(2) I've even seen one device which powers down its transmitter unless
it sees at least one input pin being driven.  This is extremely
annoying, because when you go in with a meter (or lights) to figure out
which pins are being driven you find that none of them are.  It also
means that you can't test it by just shorting TxD to RxD even if the
software is configured to ignore modem control signals.  Mercifully,
such devices seem to be rare; I've seen only one, out of all the serial
ports I've dealt with, as far as I know.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 15:56:20 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:56:20 -0400
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <m1SerrD-000J4YC@p850ug1>
References: <BLU157-W10B5ECBFD546286FA4611BA2F60@phx.gbl>
 <m1SerrD-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmzrMWJ+fUV6+Fhjk4foOcoHznts2sH7TmvfjOp2QQe1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I'ev never seen RS232 tersters or breakout boxes with anything other than
> DB25 conenctors. Were there ever ones with DE9 connectors, for example?

I have one, don't know the original vendor, but it's badged by Black
Box.  DE9s on both ends.

I carry it around with DE9-DB25 adapters.  Very compact.

For those that attended VCF East 8.0, I used it to figure out what
adapters would be required to hook up a VT420 to a USB serial dongle
on my laptop so I could give my demonstration of Scott Adams
adventures and my own ZDungeon more of a vintage feel than you'd get
on a 1-year-old Dell.

-ethan


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 13 16:54:39 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:54:39 -0700
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <1339615216.21817.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339528708.1267.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
 <4FD75C1E.27337.1390EC2@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <1339615216.21817.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD8A9AF.7712.153C811@cclist.sydex.com>

On 13 Jun 2012 at 12:20, Chris Tofu wrote:

> ?Did you mean the Columbia MPC1600? I don't personally know of an
> Eagle 1600, unless you're referring to a little seen portable unit.

Nope--I'm referring to the 1982 8086 system brought out by Eagle 
Computer.  IIRC, the MS-DOS floppy format was 800K (8x1024 byte 
tracks). Not many probably survive, because it was followed in a few 
months by the utterly-PC-compatible Eagle PC.  At one time, Eagle was 
the darling of retailers--with the later Z80-based models, you opened 
the packing box, took out the computer, plugged it in and turned it 
on.  Everything was pre-loaded and configured.  The word processing 
program offered with the Eagles was Spellbinder--a very fine bit of 
software.

Eagle used to hold public contests to determine what was the fastest 
a first-time user could get the hardware up and running.  I seem to 
recall times around 45 seconds.

If you don't know the whole story of Eagle and Dennis Barnhart and 
the bright red Ferrari, you owe it to yourself to read up on it.

There were other 8086-based clone-ish systems at the time of the 
5150.  One was the Stearns PC that came with a copy of MS-DOS, but 
also something called ST-DOS that addressed a number of compatibility 
issues with the 5150.  Call it a semi-clone.

As far as ROM sockets, well, that's a system-by-system thing.  Many 
Taiwanese clones had 5 or 6 28-pin ROM sockets for 64Kb ROMs.  Later 
ones went to one or two 256Kb sockets.  You could take one one of 
those and play with the PROM binaries a bit to get IBM BASIC to map 
in at F6000 and be good to go.

--Chuck


--Chuck




From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 13 17:32:00 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 15:32:00 -0700
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <4FD8A9AF.7712.153C811@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <1339528708.1267.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
 <1339615216.21817.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
 <4FD8A9AF.7712.153C811@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FD8B270.5256.175F95D@cclist.sydex.com>

On 13 Jun 2012 at 14:54, I wrote:

> IIRC, the MS-DOS floppy format was 800K (8x1024 byte  tracks)

More dried-out wetware bugs...  The Eagle 1600 used 5.25 floppies 
formatted to 80 cylinders, 2 sides, 5 sectors of 1024 bytes.  800K.  

--Chuck


From als at thangorodrim.de  Wed Jun 13 17:58:28 2012
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 00:58:28 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <4FD79D02.25575.2368905@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1SeXMC-000J4eC@p850ug1>
 <BB59FEC5-22B5-4DB1-ABBE-61789FB8ED24@gmail.com>
 <4FD79D02.25575.2368905@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20120613225828.GB21035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 07:48:18PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 12 Jun 2012 at 19:55, David Riley wrote:
> 
> > Of course, "working reliably" does involve a lot more than just
> > eliminating bit errors from cosmic rays, I'll give you that one.
> 
> I thought it interesting that the CDC 6600/CYBER 70 series did not 
> have any memory error checking whatsoever (the old "Parity is for 
> farmers" quote), but that the CYBER 170 series had semiconductor 
> memory and SECDED.
> 
> >From my recollection, if the old systems passed deadstart 
> diagnostics, the chance of seeing a memory error that day was very 
> small.
> 
> Was early semiconductor memory less reliable than core?  I don't 
> recall that part.

Well, from what I'm currently reading in "Dealers of Lightning", very
early semiconductor memory was quite a bit less reliable than core,
coupled with miserable yields. Presumably both improved reasonably
quickly. It had the advantage of being smaller, cheaper and faster,
though.

Kind regards,
            Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 13 19:43:37 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 17:43:37 -0700
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <20120613225828.GB21035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <m1SeXMC-000J4eC@p850ug1>,
 <4FD79D02.25575.2368905@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <20120613225828.GB21035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <4FD8D149.16353.1EE7A9B@cclist.sydex.com>

On 14 Jun 2012 at 0:58, Alexander Schreiber wrote:

> Well, from what I'm currently reading in "Dealers of Lightning", very
> early semiconductor memory was quite a bit less reliable than core,
> coupled with miserable yields. Presumably both improved reasonably
> quickly. It had the advantage of being smaller, cheaper and faster,
> though.

Wasn't the commodity DRAM chip back then a 22-pin 0.400" wide 3-
supply device--2107?  I think that almost everyone made them.

Not a nice beast, IIRC, slow and power-hungry, with an inconvenient 
+12 chip enable.  

--Chuck



From pcw at mesanet.com  Wed Jun 13 20:12:16 2012
From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:12:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <4FD8D149.16353.1EE7A9B@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1SeXMC-000J4eC@p850ug1>,
 <4FD79D02.25575.2368905@cclist.sydex.com>, 
 <20120613225828.GB21035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4FD8D149.16353.1EE7A9B@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1206131811230.25638@freeby.mesanet.com>

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 17:43:37 -0700
> From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>
> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>     <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: P800 boards
> 
> On 14 Jun 2012 at 0:58, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
>
>> Well, from what I'm currently reading in "Dealers of Lightning", very
>> early semiconductor memory was quite a bit less reliable than core,
>> coupled with miserable yields. Presumably both improved reasonably
>> quickly. It had the advantage of being smaller, cheaper and faster,
>> though.
>
> Wasn't the commodity DRAM chip back then a 22-pin 0.400" wide 3-
> supply device--2107?  I think that almost everyone made them.
>
> Not a nice beast, IIRC, slow and power-hungry, with an inconvenient
> +12 chip enable.
>
> --Chuck
>


And strangely enough, still available... (NTE2107)

Peter Wallace


From ICS65 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jun 13 20:26:45 2012
From: ICS65 at sbcglobal.net (George Wiegand)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 21:26:45 -0400
Subject: Ukraine?
References: <4FD7DE78.8050800@conus.info>
Message-ID: <EA59AA79F1CC44B9B2F9D063556449D4@ECS>

My wife is from Kiev, and I was there for a month in 2002. That's the extent 
of my Ukraine connection.
,George

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dennis Yurichev" <dennis_mailing_lists at conus.info>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 8:27 PM
Subject: Ukraine?


> Hi.
>
> Just interesting, is there any lurkers/classic computers fans from
> Ukraine here in this mailing list? 



From jon at jonworld.com  Wed Jun 13 21:05:44 2012
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:05:44 -0400
Subject: Ukraine?
In-Reply-To: <EA59AA79F1CC44B9B2F9D063556449D4@ECS>
References: <4FD7DE78.8050800@conus.info>
 <EA59AA79F1CC44B9B2F9D063556449D4@ECS>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+0XP=NZz-w3+Zo=WEGy4Ee4k1Kq7v1kGfuK4_S=mxN4Mw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Hi.
>>
>> Just interesting, is there any lurkers/classic computers fans from
>> Ukraine here in this mailing list?
>
>
My family left the Kiev area in 1915 or so, after the Cossacks raided their
store and the Czar attempted to conscript the men of the family into his
army. Sorry I can't be of more help :(


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 21:15:17 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 19:15:17 -0700
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com>
References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
 <cam2uow+5dju6mh+pbpbdt2ei-3ukad7uahtsk3n5dughqzym4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <cam2uowj6qa9=fahpocgqksobdc=hy7olnsgqbtjnt0cze0r-sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <snt137-ds1067aa7387c08ead5832d281080@phx.gbl>
 <083901cd422d$5fcb4150$1f61c3f0$@ntlworld.com>
 <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJPvN_ny9zXP4TaPyZm1sBXRWBP90f_kLkNagskyxXH4A@mail.gmail.com>

I bought a couple of these BC19S cables to have as spares for $18 each,
including shipping. Haven't seen a cheaper price recently.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300649403425

Physically it looks pretty much the same as the BC18Z, but maybe slightly
improved. The block on the monitor end of the cable with the keyboard and
mouse jacks looks the same. But the R,G,B leads coming out of the block
look almost twice as long and thicker. In my opinion that is an improvement
since on my BC18Z the shorter and thinner leads appear to have some strain
on them when attached to my monitor and one of the leads has a frayed outer
shield where it attaches to the connector block.

I haven't actually connected the BC19S between my VCB02 and monitor yet to
verify identical electrical functionality with the BC18Z.

-Glen

On Jun 5, 2012 8:43 AM, "N0body H0me" <n0body.h0me at inbox.com> wrote:
>
> So, what's the difference between a BC19s and a BC18z?
> My suspicion is that it's either mechanical, or cosmetic
> if they're electrically equivalent . . .
>
> Jeff
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com
> > Sent: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:38:07 +0100
> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> >
> > For the record, it turns out that the BC19S cable also works on a VCB02.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Rob


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 13 21:47:35 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 19:47:35 -0700
Subject: Ukraine?
In-Reply-To: <CAEOZr+0XP=NZz-w3+Zo=WEGy4Ee4k1Kq7v1kGfuK4_S=mxN4Mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FD7DE78.8050800@conus.info>,
 <EA59AA79F1CC44B9B2F9D063556449D4@ECS>,
 <CAEOZr+0XP=NZz-w3+Zo=WEGy4Ee4k1Kq7v1kGfuK4_S=mxN4Mw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FD8EE57.24064.25FF823@cclist.sydex.com>

On 13 Jun 2012 at 22:05, Jonathan Katz wrote:

> My family left the Kiev area in 1915 or so, after the Cossacks raided
> their store and the Czar attempted to conscript the men of the family
> into his army. Sorry I can't be of more help :(

Not Ukraine, but my father's father didn't escape Tsarist 
conscription.  He came to this country in 1918.

--Chuck





From fast79ta at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 13 22:22:27 2012
From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 21:22:27 -0600
Subject: SCSI-1 DB37
Message-ID: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>

Does any one have a pinout of the DB37 SCSI connector?

 

Might be what my old scanner has on it. Especially if all the ground pins
and shields line up.

 

Thanks!



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Jun 13 22:50:08 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 23:50:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SCSI-1 DB37
In-Reply-To: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>
References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201206140350.XAA06202@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Does any one have a pinout of the DB37 SCSI connector?

Is there such a thing?  I've never seen a DB37, and I've never seen
SCSI on a 37-pin connector of any sort.  (Not that either one proves
anything, really, though I do suspect that what you've got is a DC37.)
The only thing with fewer than 50 pins I've seen SCSI on is Apple's use
of a DB25 on some Macs.

> Might be what my old scanner has on it.  Especially if all the ground
> pins and shields line up.

If there is a standard - even de-facto standard - pinout for SCSI on a
DC37 I'd be interested in it, to add to my collection of pinouts.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Wed Jun 13 22:55:37 2012
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:55:37 -0500
Subject: rl02a vs rl02 whats the differance between the 2
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23zgT32ykUUYxj6e-kqPXqTwH7s-P1XiUhkg17Y85Z02g@mail.gmail.com>

just noticed my 3 rl02's i have ones a rl02a witch has a metal front panel
instead of plastic what els is different not seeing anything on a quick
google


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 13 23:58:45 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 21:58:45 -0700
Subject: SCSI-1 DB37
In-Reply-To: <201206140350.XAA06202@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>,
 <201206140350.XAA06202@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4FD90D15.1335.2D8117F@cclist.sydex.com>

On 13 Jun 2012 at 23:50, Mouse wrote:

> If there is a standard - even de-facto standard - pinout for SCSI on a
> DC37 I'd be interested in it, to add to my collection of pinouts.

Well, the controller (PC2} for Bernoulli drives is SCSI and uses a 
DC37M on the controller end, but I doubt that it's standard.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 14 00:05:42 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:05:42 -0700
Subject: SCSI-1 DB37
In-Reply-To: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>
References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD90EB6.4419.2DE6D6D@cclist.sydex.com>

On 13 Jun 2012 at 21:22, Joe wrote:

> Does any one have a pinout of the DB37 SCSI connector?
> 
> 
> 
> Might be what my old scanner has on it. Especially if all the ground
> pins and shields line up.

Try the old Novell SCSI pinout:

ftp://ftp.downloads.black-box.de/faxback/17000/17972.PDF

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Jun 14 00:13:09 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 22:13:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SCSI-1 DB37
In-Reply-To: <201206140350.XAA06202@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>
 <201206140350.XAA06202@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20120613221129.T45871@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012, Mouse wrote:
> Is there such a thing?  I've never seen a DB37, and I've never seen
> SCSI on a 37-pin connector of any sort.  (Not that either one proves
> anything, really, though I do suspect that what you've got is a DC37.)
> The only thing with fewer than 50 pins I've seen SCSI on is Apple's use
> of a DB25 on some Macs.

. . . also on Trantor (later Adaptec) "Mini-SCSI" T338?
Seems to be similar to the Apple pinout, except for "TERMPOWR"





From curt at atarimuseum.com  Thu Jun 14 00:38:57 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 01:38:57 -0400
Subject: SCSI-1 DB37
In-Reply-To: <4FD90D15.1335.2D8117F@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>,
 <201206140350.XAA06202@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4FD90D15.1335.2D8117F@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FD978F1.2000808@atarimuseum.com>

You sure its SCSI and not SASI ?




Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 13 Jun 2012 at 23:50, Mouse wrote:
>
>   
>> If there is a standard - even de-facto standard - pinout for SCSI on a
>> DC37 I'd be interested in it, to add to my collection of pinouts.
>>     
>
> Well, the controller (PC2} for Bernoulli drives is SCSI and uses a 
> DC37M on the controller end, but I doubt that it's standard.
>
> --Chuck
>
>   


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Jun 14 02:55:45 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 03:55:45 -0400
Subject: seeking ATT PC 7300 keyboard caps...letter C and Reset/Break
In-Reply-To: <1339614289.60208.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CANt3_LbuwaXGE6MiWMk6FWV_2kOBNOa=1bB=c56gfiW_-opz7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <201206131030.q5DATv3U036519@billy.ezwind.net>
 <1339614289.60208.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FD99901.4090309@neurotica.com>

On 06/13/2012 03:04 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> perhaps th6300 used siimilar keycaps.

  No, 6300 key caps are completely different from those of the 7300.

> Tecnically I have a beat up
> Xerox 6060 k/b (also made by Olivetti), to go w/my beatup 6060, but
> I'm not ready to give it up yet. Like a fool I threw the b/w monitor
> out.

  That was...erm..."ill advised".

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From tpresence at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 13 03:32:01 2012
From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 02:32:01 -0600
Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around
In-Reply-To: <4FD837DD.6050807@neurotica.com>
References: <BLU157-W9397E08E6A770CFA9F508A2F60@phx.gbl>,
 <4FD837DD.6050807@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <BLU157-W433844F49CF7E4AFD82C64A2F50@phx.gbl>


The 3900/uvax III is running VMS.  The terminal doesnt have an OS, its just in DTE mode.  I haven't figured out how to change the terminals settings.  This is why I was looking for the manual.

Kevin

> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 02:49:01 -0400
> From: mcguire at neurotica.com
> To: 
> Subject: Re: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around
> 
> On 06/12/2012 07:12 PM, Kevin Reynolds wrote:
> > I have looked through bitsavers and some other old vax manual
> > repositories online and I haven't found a manual for the DEC VT1300.
> > I did an installation and service manual for the VR320 monitors I
> > have, but they only cover the display.  I have worked out alot of
> > details about the vt1300 system, and have gotten one working 100%,
> > but haven't figured out what terminal emulation the terminal
> > personality of the unit uses.  It works 95% with the vax 3900 I have
> > it attached to, but from time to time I see what I assume as vt100
> > control codes in the output stream.  I assumed that that unit used
> > vt100 emulation out of the box, and that the vax console would go
> > this way as well, but perhaps I'm wrong.  It could be that the vax is
> > vt52 some other terminal type by default, or that the 1300 does
> > vt102, or vt220...
> 
>   I assume you're running VMS?
> 
>   What exactly are you seeing?  It's possible (even likely) that you're
> seeing overruns.  Try dropping the baud rate, just experimentally, to
> see if the problem goes away.
> 
>               -Dave
> 
> -- 
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA
 		 	   		  

From jjacocks at mac.com  Wed Jun 13 15:25:51 2012
From: jjacocks at mac.com (J. Alexander Jacocks)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:25:51 -0400
Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout
In-Reply-To: <4FD8AB8A.6070201@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1SeXBo-000J4ZC@p850ug1> <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com>
 <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <SNT129-W38A499C3E143B9CD99F073A3F50@phx.gbl>
 <4FD8AB8A.6070201@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <CAF-r0Y0+9tAvhYmiR-N-zwN3OwdO41fJ0zQcKXgHcRqGospWvg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com> wrote:
> dwight elvey wrote:
>>
>> ?Is the //c connector any different than a IIe?
>
>
> Yes. ?And IIRC, the //c+ connector is different than the //c connector.

It would be a lovely thing to have someone make a few of these.  I've
been looking for a memory expansion board for my IIc+, in the USA, for
months now, with no result.  The best way that I have heard to find
boards is to blindly buy IIc and IIc+ units, and hope one is
installed.

- Alex



From tpresence at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 13 19:45:56 2012
From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:45:56 -0600
Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around
In-Reply-To: <E1Ses2V-0008S8-6T@shell.xmission.com>
References: <BLU157-W9397E08E6A770CFA9F508A2F60@phx.gbl>,
 <E1Ses2V-0008S8-6T@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <BLU157-W4654E85E7E00A15C8F4256A2F40@phx.gbl>


Strangely enough, they seem to have everything EXCEPT the vt1300 :(

> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around
> From: legalize at xmission.com
> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 12:11:31 -0600
> 
> 
> In article <BLU157-W9397E08E6A770CFA9F508A2F60 at phx.gbl>,
>     Kevin Reynolds <tpresence at hotmail.com> writes:
> 
> > I have looked through bitsavers and some other old vax manual repositories
> > online and I haven't found a manual for the DEC VT1300.
> 
> Did you try looking here:
> <http://manx.classiccmp.org/mirror/antonio>
> <http://manx.classiccmp.org/mirror/mds-199909/>
> 
> These aren't all in the manx database.
> -- 
> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
>      The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
>          The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
>   Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
 		 	   		  

From holm at freibergnet.de  Thu Jun 14 06:24:24 2012
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 13:24:24 +0200
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1206131811230.25638@freeby.mesanet.com>
References: <20120613225828.GB21035@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4FD8D149.16353.1EE7A9B@cclist.sydex.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1206131811230.25638@freeby.mesanet.com>
Message-ID: <20120614112424.GC16852@beast.freibergnet.de>

Peter C. Wallace wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> 
> >Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 17:43:37 -0700
> >From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>
> >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> >    <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
> ><cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> >Subject: Re: P800 boards
> >
> >On 14 Jun 2012 at 0:58, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> >
> >>Well, from what I'm currently reading in "Dealers of Lightning", very
> >>early semiconductor memory was quite a bit less reliable than core,
> >>coupled with miserable yields. Presumably both improved reasonably
> >>quickly. It had the advantage of being smaller, cheaper and faster,
> >>though.
> >
> >Wasn't the commodity DRAM chip back then a 22-pin 0.400" wide 3-
> >supply device--2107?  I think that almost everyone made them.
> >
> >Not a nice beast, IIRC, slow and power-hungry, with an inconvenient
> >+12 chip enable.
> >
> >--Chuck
> >
> 
> 
> And strangely enough, still available... (NTE2107)
> 
> Peter Wallace

..have 2 or 3 Boxes of the russian equivalent K565RU1A, ~ 100pcs
just in case someone needs them. Gold/Pink Ceramics.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 06:50:46 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 08:50:46 -0300
Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout
References: <m1SeXBo-000J4ZC@p850ug1> <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com>
 <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <SNT129-W38A499C3E143B9CD99F073A3F50@phx.gbl> <4FD8AB8A.6070201@brouhaha.com>
 <CAF-r0Y0+9tAvhYmiR-N-zwN3OwdO41fJ0zQcKXgHcRqGospWvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f5a01cd4a24$265b7b20$6400a8c0@tababook>

> It would be a lovely thing to have someone make a few of these.  I've
> been looking for a memory expansion board for my IIc+, in the USA, for
> months now, with no result.  The best way that I have heard to find
> boards is to blindly buy IIc and IIc+ units, and hope one is
> installed.

    If you go this route, I'd love to have one of your main boards...Mine is 
fried and looks like one of the PALs. I already xchanged the dedicated ICs 
with a //e and found no TTLs fried :'( 



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 08:27:42 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 09:27:42 -0400
Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout
In-Reply-To: <1f5a01cd4a24$265b7b20$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <m1SeXBo-000J4ZC@p850ug1> <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com>
 <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <SNT129-W38A499C3E143B9CD99F073A3F50@phx.gbl> <4FD8AB8A.6070201@brouhaha.com>
 <CAF-r0Y0+9tAvhYmiR-N-zwN3OwdO41fJ0zQcKXgHcRqGospWvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1f5a01cd4a24$265b7b20$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <637C40A3-D363-4C74-AF3D-359C8A812674@gmail.com>

On Jun 14, 2012, at 7:50 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:

>> It would be a lovely thing to have someone make a few of these.  I've
>> been looking for a memory expansion board for my IIc+, in the USA, for
>> months now, with no result.  The best way that I have heard to find
>> boards is to blindly buy IIc and IIc+ units, and hope one is
>> installed.
> 
>   If you go this route, I'd love to have one of your main boards...Mine is fried and looks like one of the PALs. I already xchanged the dedicated ICs with a //e and found no TTLs fried :'( 

Are the PAL equations known?  I'd be happy to burn a few GALs with
equivalent equations and send them your way for the cost of postage.


- Dave




From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 08:34:22 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:34:22 -0300
Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout
References: <m1SeXBo-000J4ZC@p850ug1> <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com>
 <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <SNT129-W38A499C3E143B9CD99F073A3F50@phx.gbl> <4FD8AB8A.6070201@brouhaha.com>
 <CAF-r0Y0+9tAvhYmiR-N-zwN3OwdO41fJ0zQcKXgHcRqGospWvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1f5a01cd4a24$265b7b20$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <637C40A3-D363-4C74-AF3D-359C8A812674@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20f701cd4a32$87e9a930$6400a8c0@tababook>

>>   If you go this route, I'd love to have one of your main boards...Mine 
>> is fried and looks like one of the PALs. I already xchanged the dedicated 
>> ICs with a //e and found no TTLs fried :'(
> Are the PAL equations known?  I'd be happy to burn a few GALs with
> equivalent equations and send them your way for the cost of postage.

    Danke, Dave! But I have a PAL burner (Beeprog, from Elnec). The problem 
is exactely the equations :o) They are not known :(

    And I'd love to get a newer //c board, with the memory expansion pinout. 
I'm desiging a SRAM card for the //E and would love to adapt it for the //c

    Thanks a lot
    Alexandre :o) 



From curt at atarimuseum.com  Thu Jun 14 09:39:25 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:39:25 -0400
Subject: Apple //c memory expansion pinout
In-Reply-To: <20f701cd4a32$87e9a930$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <m1SeXBo-000J4ZC@p850ug1> <4FD82034.1030609@neurotica.com>
 <131601cd492c$01d298e0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <SNT129-W38A499C3E143B9CD99F073A3F50@phx.gbl> <4FD8AB8A.6070201@brouhaha.com>
 <CAF-r0Y0+9tAvhYmiR-N-zwN3OwdO41fJ0zQcKXgHcRqGospWvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1f5a01cd4a24$265b7b20$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <637C40A3-D363-4C74-AF3D-359C8A812674@gmail.com>
 <20f701cd4a32$87e9a930$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <4FD9F79D.4080104@atarimuseum.com>

Speaking of this....

How many of the LCD displays were made for the //c's???   I saw one at a 
friends house back in the 80's and was pretty impressed with it.



Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>>>   If you go this route, I'd love to have one of your main 
>>> boards...Mine is fried and looks like one of the PALs. I already 
>>> xchanged the dedicated ICs with a //e and found no TTLs fried :'(
>> Are the PAL equations known?  I'd be happy to burn a few GALs with
>> equivalent equations and send them your way for the cost of postage.
>
>    Danke, Dave! But I have a PAL burner (Beeprog, from Elnec). The 
> problem is exactely the equations :o) They are not known :(
>
>    And I'd love to get a newer //c board, with the memory expansion 
> pinout. I'm desiging a SRAM card for the //E and would love to adapt 
> it for the //c
>
>    Thanks a lot
>    Alexandre :o)


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 14 10:33:39 2012
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 17:33:39 +0200
Subject: rl02a vs rl02 whats the differance between the 2
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23zgT32ykUUYxj6e-kqPXqTwH7s-P1XiUhkg17Y85Z02g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs23zgT32ykUUYxj6e-kqPXqTwH7s-P1XiUhkg17Y85Z02g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY155-ds15C13D093F3CD36CFA873B86F40@phx.gbl>

From: "Adrian Stoness" <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:55 AM
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: rl02a vs rl02 whats the differance between the 2

> just noticed my 3 rl02's i have ones a rl02a witch has a metal front panel
> instead of plastic what els is different not seeing anything on a quick
> google

For all I know (and have seen), the RL01 had a metal front without "RL01"
printed on the front, and the RL02 had a plastic front with "RL02" printed
on the front.
I have never seen an RL02 with a metal front! Neither heard of RL02a. Cool !

greetz,
- Henk, PA8PDP 



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Jun 14 10:45:09 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 11:45:09 -0400
Subject: rl02a vs rl02 whats the differance between the 2
In-Reply-To: <BAY155-ds15C13D093F3CD36CFA873B86F40@phx.gbl>
References: <CAA3rs23zgT32ykUUYxj6e-kqPXqTwH7s-P1XiUhkg17Y85Z02g@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds15C13D093F3CD36CFA873B86F40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4FDA0705.6010503@neurotica.com>

On 06/14/2012 11:33 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
>> just noticed my 3 rl02's i have ones a rl02a witch has a metal front
>> panel
>> instead of plastic what els is different not seeing anything on a quick
>> google
> 
> For all I know (and have seen), the RL01 had a metal front without "RL01"
> printed on the front, and the RL02 had a plastic front with "RL02" printed
> on the front.

  I have several RL01s with plastic fronts that actually say "RL01" on
them.  I've seen the metal-front, unlabeled ones.  I believe they are an
older rev but am not certain.

> I have never seen an RL02 with a metal front! Neither heard of RL02a.
> Cool !

  Me neither, very interesting.  I'd sure like to know if there's any
real difference.

  Adrian, can you shoot some pics of these RL02A drives?

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 14 10:45:25 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 08:45:25 -0700
Subject: SCSI-1 DB37
In-Reply-To: <4FD978F1.2000808@atarimuseum.com>
References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>,
 <4FD90D15.1335.2D8117F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FD978F1.2000808@atarimuseum.com>
Message-ID: <4FD9A4A5.31297.704B1@cclist.sydex.com>

On 14 Jun 2012 at 1:38, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:

> You sure its SCSI and not SASI ?

Dead sure--this goes to a dual 90MB unit--that I sometimes also 
interface to an Adaptec 2940 adapter.  Far too late (90s) for SASI.

--Chuck



From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Jun 14 11:16:02 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:16:02 -0600
Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around
In-Reply-To: <BLU157-W4654E85E7E00A15C8F4256A2F40@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU157-W9397E08E6A770CFA9F508A2F60@phx.gbl>,
 <E1Ses2V-0008S8-6T@shell.xmission.com>
 <BLU157-W4654E85E7E00A15C8F4256A2F40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E1SfCiI-0004Tw-IN@shell.xmission.com>


In article <BLU157-W4654E85E7E00A15C8F4256A2F40 at phx.gbl>,
    Kevin Reynolds <tpresence at hotmail.com> writes:

> Strangely enough, they seem to have everything EXCEPT the vt1300 :(

The 1300 is very similar to the 1200, but uses a different OS.

You'll need a system that can supply the VAXELN operating system to
the terminal.

This article from Digital Technical Journal describes the X terminals
made by DEC, including the VT1300:
<ftp://ftp.linux-mips.org/pub/linux/mips/people/macro/DEC/DTJ/DTJ402/DTJ402PF.PDF>
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Jun 14 11:35:49 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 09:35:49 -0700
Subject: seeking ATT PC 7300 keyboard caps...letter C and Reset/Break
In-Reply-To: <4FD99901.4090309@neurotica.com>
References: <CANt3_LbuwaXGE6MiWMk6FWV_2kOBNOa=1bB=c56gfiW_-opz7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <201206131030.q5DATv3U036519@billy.ezwind.net>
 <1339614289.60208.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FD99901.4090309@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4FDA12E5.6060705@brouhaha.com>

On 06/13/2012 03:04 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:

> perhaps th6300 used siimilar keycaps.

Dave McGuire wrote:
> No, 6300 key caps are completely different from those of the 7300. 

Since the 7300 and 3B1 were made for AT&T by Convergent, it is more 
likely that the key caps might be the same as those for some other 
Convergent machine, such as the Personal Terminal 510A or 510D, also 
made for AT&T.



From curt at atarimuseum.com  Thu Jun 14 12:06:28 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 13:06:28 -0400
Subject: SCSI-1 DB37
In-Reply-To: <4FD9A4A5.31297.704B1@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>,
 <4FD90D15.1335.2D8117F@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FD978F1.2000808@atarimuseum.com> <4FD9A4A5.31297.704B1@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FDA1A14.1010809@atarimuseum.com>

okay, just checking....

Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 14 Jun 2012 at 1:38, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
>
>   
>> You sure its SCSI and not SASI ?
>>     
>
> Dead sure--this goes to a dual 90MB unit--that I sometimes also 
> interface to an Adaptec 2940 adapter.  Far too late (90s) for SASI.
>
> --Chuck
>
>   


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 12:14:18 2012
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 12:14:18 -0500
Subject: rl02a vs rl02 whats the differance between the 2
In-Reply-To: <4FDA0705.6010503@neurotica.com>
References: <CAA3rs23zgT32ykUUYxj6e-kqPXqTwH7s-P1XiUhkg17Y85Z02g@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds15C13D093F3CD36CFA873B86F40@phx.gbl>
 <4FDA0705.6010503@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21YCOmOKjB1KwgYxUh+J1AuiZkjcdvpWBf01A7-Y-UdYw@mail.gmail.com>

they all say rl02 on them
one on the left is the one with a metal front
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7197/6929974463_78f10207a3_b.jpg

i was looking at it last night checking the first intake filter witch needs
replacing and noticed it was a metal front insted of plastic dunno why i
didn't notice that befor but interesting the digital logo is embose and it
apears to be a cast mold and not a sheet metal pressing i acquired this
drive for cost of shipping with cables controllor card and a platter with
rt11 4.0 on it of vintage-computer.com several months ago
my other 2 drives came of ebay and need to be finished being cleaned as
they came outa a pritty dirty radiator factory

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>wrote:

> On 06/14/2012 11:33 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> >> just noticed my 3 rl02's i have ones a rl02a witch has a metal front
> >> panel
> >> instead of plastic what els is different not seeing anything on a quick
> >> google
> >
> > For all I know (and have seen), the RL01 had a metal front without "RL01"
> > printed on the front, and the RL02 had a plastic front with "RL02"
> printed
> > on the front.
>
>   I have several RL01s with plastic fronts that actually say "RL01" on
> them.  I've seen the metal-front, unlabeled ones.  I believe they are an
> older rev but am not certain.
>
> > I have never seen an RL02 with a metal front! Neither heard of RL02a.
> > Cool !
>
>   Me neither, very interesting.  I'd sure like to know if there's any
> real difference.
>
>  Adrian, can you shoot some pics of these RL02A drives?
>
>            -Dave
>
> --
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA
>


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 14 15:24:41 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:24:41 +0100 (BST)
Subject: P800 boards
In-Reply-To: <4FD8D149.16353.1EE7A9B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 13, 12 05:43:37 pm
Message-ID: <m1SfGb0-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 14 Jun 2012 at 0:58, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> 
> > Well, from what I'm currently reading in "Dealers of Lightning", very
> > early semiconductor memory was quite a bit less reliable than core,
> > coupled with miserable yields. Presumably both improved reasonably
> > quickly. It had the advantage of being smaller, cheaper and faster,
> > though.
> 
> Wasn't the commodity DRAM chip back then a 22-pin 0.400" wide 3-
> supply device--2107?  I think that almost everyone made them.

4K bits IIRC. Wasn't there a TMS4096 that was much the same thing?

> 
> Not a nice beast, IIRC, slow and power-hungry, with an inconvenient 
> +12 chip enable.  
>

I suspect it was regarded as a huch improvement over the 1103 IK*! DRAM. 
That thing was PMOS and has 16V logic levels on all pins (address, data, 
seelct, etc). Intel did make some level shifter ICs to go with it (3207 
and 3208 I think), but from what I revall, they came out significantly 
later than the RAM itself.

Oh, and the 1103 needed +16V and +19V power rails, not particularly 
useful for anything else in the machine.

Mildly off-subject, but there was the 1103 and the 1103A. IIRC, the 
former needed a 'precharge' signal before every operation (after the 
address was stable), the latter didn't, but the Precharge pin on the 1103 
became a no-conenct on the 1103A so you could substitute the foremr with 
the latter with no problems.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 14 15:30:35 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:30:35 +0100 (BST)
Subject: SCSI-1 DB37
In-Reply-To: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com> from "Joe" at Jun 13,
 12 09:22:27 pm
Message-ID: <m1SfGgi-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

> 
> Does any one have a pinout of the DB37 SCSI connector?

I am not sure it was standardised, but the one time I saw a DC37 used for 
SCIS, it was wired in the 'obvious' (to me) way : 

Pins 20-37 were all grounds

1-8 were the data lines in the obvious order, 9 might well ahve been parity

Then 19-... were the cotnrol lines in the same order tht they appera on a 
50 pin Microribbon SCSI conenctor. That is, the signal on pin 25 of said 
connector became pin 19 on the DC37, the signal on pin 24 of the 
Microribbon ended up on pin 18 of the DC37, and so on.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 14 15:10:03 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:10:03 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <1339617198.84977.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from
 "Chris Tofu" at Jun 13, 12 12:53:18 pm
Message-ID: <m1SfGMr-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> But in general what does the IBM 5150/5160=
>  specific BASIC rom do regarding addressing specific h/w? That's the crux o=
> f the matter I guess. If I could run TI Pro GW-BASIC on my XP laptop (sever=
> al years ago) to whatever degree, something tells me BASIC accesses the h/w=
>  via BIOS or DOS calls.
> 

Unfortunately (and perhaps obviously) the BASIC ROM source listings were 
never released, and the TechRefs say very little about what ROM BAIC 
actually dows.

I guess one approach would be to saech the ROM BASIC for driect I/O 
instructions (there must be some, if only for the BASIC statements that 
allow a user program to directly access I/O ports) and also software 
interrupts. If there are plenty of the latter and few of the former, it's 
a good bet it'll run on BIOS-compatible clones (as opposed to running on 
only hardware-compatible clones).

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 14 15:16:56 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:16:56 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <201206132044.QAA02317@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Jun 13, 12 04:44:03 pm
Message-ID: <m1SfGTV-000J4WC@p850ug1>

> 
> >> that I didn't know what pin was what on the system, the problem was
> >> what pin was what on the connectors I wanted to buy.
> > Sure.  The point of my (and others) post was that if you get _any_
> > adapter you can then use the RS232 tester to figure otu which is TxD
> > and which is RxD, and if necessary make up an adapter using
> > easy-to-get DB25 conenctors to lin kit to your terminal.  That might
> > not be as neat as having the right adapter, but it will get the thing
> > working.
> 
> ...usually.
> 
> I've seen two things which could break this.
> 
> (1) Some devices require some of the modem control signals in order to
> operate at all.  Hooking up just TxD, RxD, and GND won't be enough in
> such cases.

Hence my comment (in anotehr messagee) to use the LED adapter to see what 
flow control lines the device drives. If it drives something, it's 
possible it requires the counterpart to be asserted before it will do 
anything.

Another trick I've used is to use the diode test feature of a DMM (or an 
analogue multimeter) to check every pin o nthe DB25 to ground both ways 
round. You will pick up the input protection diodes of the receivr chips 
and the output stage of the drivers. Thus tyou can tell which pins go 
somewhere, and which are not connected at all 

> 
> (2) I've even seen one device which powers down its transmitter unless
> it sees at least one input pin being driven.  This is extremely

I assuem it also powers down the drivers for any flow control outputs.

That is plain evil. What device does this?

> annoying, because when you go in with a meter (or lights) to figure out
> which pins are being driven you find that none of them are.  It also
> means that you can't test it by just shorting TxD to RxD even if the
> software is configured to ignore modem control signals.  Mercifully,
> such devices seem to be rare; I've seen only one, out of all the serial
> ports I've dealt with, as far as I know.

A third thing you cna't test with the light adapter on its own is an 
RS232 drvice that's powered from the RS232 signals, like some (most?, 
certainly not all) serial mice.

I think it's fair to say that no solution works in _all_ cases. That 
doesn't mean the LED adapter is not handy to have around. It works in 
enough cases that it's a useful thing to have in the toolkit.

-tony


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Jun 14 16:25:33 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 17:25:33 -0400
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <m1SfGMr-000J4TC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SfGMr-000J4TC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FDA56CD.3010609@neurotica.com>

On 06/14/2012 04:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>> But in general what does the IBM 5150/5160=
>>  specific BASIC rom do regarding addressing specific h/w? That's the crux o=
>> f the matter I guess. If I could run TI Pro GW-BASIC on my XP laptop (sever=
>> al years ago) to whatever degree, something tells me BASIC accesses the h/w=
>>  via BIOS or DOS calls.
> 
> Unfortunately (and perhaps obviously) the BASIC ROM source listings were 
> never released, and the TechRefs say very little about what ROM BAIC 
> actually dows.

  It's not THAT big.  Someone should finally get around to disassembling
and commenting it.

          -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Jun 14 16:30:56 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 17:30:56 -0400
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <m1SfGTV-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SfGTV-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FDA5810.4070101@neurotica.com>

On 06/14/2012 04:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>> (2) I've even seen one device which powers down its transmitter unless
>> it sees at least one input pin being driven.  This is extremely
> 
> I assuem it also powers down the drivers for any flow control outputs.
> 
> That is plain evil. What device does this?

  Just to jump in...I don't know about machines, but at least one of the
later MAX232 family chips can be configured to do this.  It's a
power-saving measure; it shuts down the charge pump.  Note that this is
not the "MAX232", but one of that family, which comprises upwards of
thirty completely different chips now.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 16:56:15 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 22:56:15 +0100
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJPvN_ny9zXP4TaPyZm1sBXRWBP90f_kLkNagskyxXH4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
 <cam2uow+5dju6mh+pbpbdt2ei-3ukad7uahtsk3n5dughqzym4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <cam2uowj6qa9=fahpocgqksobdc=hy7olnsgqbtjnt0cze0r-sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <snt137-ds1067aa7387c08ead5832d281080@phx.gbl>
 <083901cd422d$5fcb4150$1f61c3f0$@ntlworld.com>
 <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com>
 <CAM2UOwJPvN_ny9zXP4TaPyZm1sBXRWBP90f_kLkNagskyxXH4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDA5DFF.8020901@gmail.com>

On 14/06/2012 03:15, Glen Slick wrote:
> I bought a couple of these BC19S cables to have as spares for $18 each,
> including shipping. Haven't seen a cheaper price recently.
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300649403425
Very nice, but $150 to ship to the UK? I could almost fly out and pick 
one up for that....
> Physically it looks pretty much the same as the BC18Z, but maybe slightly
> improved. The block on the monitor end of the cable with the keyboard and
> mouse jacks looks the same. But the R,G,B leads coming out of the block
> look almost twice as long and thicker. In my opinion that is an improvement
> since on my BC18Z the shorter and thinner leads appear to have some strain
> on them when attached to my monitor and one of the leads has a frayed outer
> shield where it attaches to the connector block.
>
> I haven't actually connected the BC19S between my VCB02 and monitor yet to
> verify identical electrical functionality with the BC18Z.
>
> -Glen
>
> On Jun 5, 2012 8:43 AM, "N0body H0me"<n0body.h0me at inbox.com>  wrote:
>> So, what's the difference between a BC19s and a BC18z?
>> My suspicion is that it's either mechanical, or cosmetic
>> if they're electrically equivalent . . .
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com
>>> Sent: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 09:38:07 +0100
>>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>>> Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
>>>
>>> For the record, it turns out that the BC19S cable also works on a VCB02.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Rob


-- 
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 14 17:13:23 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:13:23 -0700
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <4FDA5810.4070101@neurotica.com>
References: <m1SfGTV-000J4WC@p850ug1>, <4FDA5810.4070101@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4FD9FF93.1461.16A371C@cclist.sydex.com>

On 14 Jun 2012 at 17:30, Dave McGuire wrote:

>   Just to jump in...I don't know about machines, but at least one of
>   the
> later MAX232 family chips can be configured to do this.  It's a
> power-saving measure; it shuts down the charge pump.  Note that this
> is not the "MAX232", but one of that family, which comprises upwards
> of thirty completely different chips now.

Linear Technology EIA transceivers ; e.g. LT1080--pretty much have 
always had that feature--with an ON/OFF pin.

--Chuck



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 17:27:25 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:27:25 -0700
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <4FDA5DFF.8020901@gmail.com>
References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
 <cam2uow+5dju6mh+pbpbdt2ei-3ukad7uahtsk3n5dughqzym4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <cam2uowj6qa9=fahpocgqksobdc=hy7olnsgqbtjnt0cze0r-sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <snt137-ds1067aa7387c08ead5832d281080@phx.gbl>
 <083901cd422d$5fcb4150$1f61c3f0$@ntlworld.com>
 <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com>
 <CAM2UOwJPvN_ny9zXP4TaPyZm1sBXRWBP90f_kLkNagskyxXH4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDA5DFF.8020901@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKcnasCesSSsbSt2_SB+pnPsGiMu2t99w3ABz3UXnqoPw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 14/06/2012 03:15, Glen Slick wrote:
>>
>> I bought a couple of these BC19S cables to have as spares for $18 each,
>> including shipping. Haven't seen a cheaper price recently.
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300649403425
>
> Very nice, but $150 to ship to the UK? I could almost fly out and pick one
> up for that....

>From the USPS website:

If it would fit into a USPS Priority Mail? International Small Flat
Rate Box,  8-5/8" x 5-3/8" x 1-5/8", Maximum weight 4 pounds the
shipping would be $16.95.  I'm not sure if it would fit one of those
boxes without trying.  Maybe not.

The next size up Priority Mail? International Medium Flat Rate Box,
13-5/8" x 11-7/8" x 3-3/8" or 11" x 8-1/2" x 5-1/2", Maximum weight 20
pounds is $47.95.

No idea what the eBay shipping calculator is using to come up with the
$150 shipping.



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Jun 14 17:49:18 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 23:49:18 +0100
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKcnasCesSSsbSt2_SB+pnPsGiMu2t99w3ABz3UXnqoPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
 <cam2uow+5dju6mh+pbpbdt2ei-3ukad7uahtsk3n5dughqzym4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <cam2uowj6qa9=fahpocgqksobdc=hy7olnsgqbtjnt0cze0r-sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <snt137-ds1067aa7387c08ead5832d281080@phx.gbl>
 <083901cd422d$5fcb4150$1f61c3f0$@ntlworld.com>
 <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com>
 <CAM2UOwJPvN_ny9zXP4TaPyZm1sBXRWBP90f_kLkNagskyxXH4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDA5DFF.8020901@gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKcnasCesSSsbSt2_SB+pnPsGiMu2t99w3ABz3UXnqoPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDA6A6E.8000409@gmail.com>

On 14/06/2012 23:27, Glen Slick wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Dave Wade<dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On 14/06/2012 03:15, Glen Slick wrote:
>>> I bought a couple of these BC19S cables to have as spares for $18 each,
>>> including shipping. Haven't seen a cheaper price recently.
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300649403425
>> Very nice, but $150 to ship to the UK? I could almost fly out and pick one
>> up for that....
>  From the USPS website:
>
> If it would fit into a USPS Priority Mail? International Small Flat
> Rate Box,  8-5/8" x 5-3/8" x 1-5/8", Maximum weight 4 pounds the
> shipping would be $16.95.  I'm not sure if it would fit one of those
> boxes without trying.  Maybe not.
>
> The next size up Priority Mail? International Medium Flat Rate Box,
> 13-5/8" x 11-7/8" x 3-3/8" or 11" x 8-1/2" x 5-1/2", Maximum weight 20
> pounds is $47.95.
>
> No idea what the eBay shipping calculator is using to come up with the
> $150 shipping.
>
I asked him why it was so expensive to ship to the UK, lets see if I get 
an answer...

-- 
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



From fast79ta at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 14 18:49:49 2012
From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 17:49:49 -0600
Subject: SCSI-1 DB37
In-Reply-To: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>
References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <022101cd4a88$63c6c0f0$2b5442d0$@yahoo.com>

Thanks for all the feedback.. Plus I learned something new.. I always
thought DB was short for D-Sub.. Boy was I wrong!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-25


I will compare what I have on that thing, with the examples, and see if we
have a winner. Might be able to hack up an external HD68 cable, and make a
new one.. or let all the smoke out, and recycle the scanner like it was
headed to originally anyways.. :|

Cheers, Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Joe
Sent: June-13-12 9:22 PM
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: SCSI-1 DB37

Does any one have a pinout of the DB37 SCSI connector?

 

Might be what my old scanner has on it. Especially if all the ground pins
and shields line up.

 

Thanks!




From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 14 20:32:34 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 18:32:34 -0700
Subject: SCSI-1 DB37
In-Reply-To: <022101cd4a88$63c6c0f0$2b5442d0$@yahoo.com>
References: <00a701cd49dc$ed2cc760$c7865620$@yahoo.com>,
 <022101cd4a88$63c6c0f0$2b5442d0$@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FDA2E42.30547.220916C@cclist.sydex.com>

On 14 Jun 2012 at 17:49, Joe wrote:

> I will compare what I have on that thing, with the examples, and see
> if we have a winner. Might be able to hack up an external HD68 cable,
> and make a new one.. or let all the smoke out, and recycle the scanner
> like it was headed to originally anyways.. :|

Please be sure to let us know how it goes, Joe!

--Chuck



From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Jun 14 23:08:43 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:08:43 -0700
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <4FDA56CD.3010609@neurotica.com>
References: <m1SfGMr-000J4TC@p850ug1> <4FDA56CD.3010609@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4FDAB54B.5000804@brouhaha.com>

Tony Duell wrote:

> Unfortunately (and perhaps obviously) the BASIC ROM source listings were
> never released, and the TechRefs say very little about what ROM BAIC
> actually dows.

Dave McGuire wrote:
> It's not THAT big. Someone should finally get around to disassembling 
> and commenting it. 

I'd wager that it's an almost literal translation of a late version of 
Microsoft BASIC-80, and I seem to recall that there are some commented 
disassemblies of that, so it shouldn't be too difficult.  It's probably 
not even that different than Microsoft's TRS-80 BASIC.




From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Jun 14 23:59:52 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 00:59:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <m1SfGTV-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SfGTV-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201206150459.AAA18276@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> (2) I've even seen one device which powers down its transmitter
>> unless it sees at least one input pin being driven.  [...]
> I assuem it also powers down the drivers for any flow control
> outputs.

Yes; I can't recall details (it was quite a while ago), but I think it
was a low-power device (laptop? SoC?) on which powering down the DC-DC
converter used to generate the voltages for RS-232 could result in a
nontrivial power savings.  I've assumed that's what it was doing.

> That is plain evil.  What device does this?

As I said above, I don't recall enough details, except that I think it
was a battery-powered device.

> A third thing you cna't test with the light adapter on its own is an
> RS232 drvice that's powered from the RS232 signals,

True.

> I think it's fair to say that no solution works in _all_ cases.  That
> doesn't mean the LED adapter is not handy to have around.  It works
> in enough cases that it's a useful thing to have in the toolkit.

Agreed on all three points.  I brought up these cases not to say "don't
bother with a LED RS232 breakout box", but more "be aware of these
possibilities when debugging, so that you don't, for example, jump to
the conclusion that because no lines are driven the hardware must be
fried".

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From tpresence at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 14 14:28:45 2012
From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 13:28:45 -0600
Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around
In-Reply-To: <E1SfCiI-0004Tw-IN@shell.xmission.com>
References: <BLU157-W9397E08E6A770CFA9F508A2F60@phx.gbl>, ,
 <E1Ses2V-0008S8-6T@shell.xmission.com>,
 <BLU157-W4654E85E7E00A15C8F4256A2F40@phx.gbl>,
 <E1SfCiI-0004Tw-IN@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <BLU157-W43E9C1FF7E3151B366F5CA2F40@phx.gbl>


Richard,

Actually, the EWS (ELN Workstation Software) is part of a freeware package dec produced some time ago.  But this only matters if you want to use the terminal in x-windows mode, which I may eventually do.  I do have a microvax III system that could supply the OS, but I haven't gotten that far yet.

The nice thing about the 1300 is that they provided dumb terminal capability as well.  There is a switch on the rear of the unit that allows you to select what personality it is, graphics or text.  Of course, for the time being, I have it being used as a dumb terminal.  My only real issue is that no terminal type seems to work 100% with the unit.  I have tried every available setting, as well as changing baud rates and such, but I haven't had any luck.

The terminal works, but any escape characters just get printed to the screen.  If I set it to any VT type, at least backspace works.

Kevin

> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around
> From: legalize at xmission.com
> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:16:02 -0600
> 
> 
> In article <BLU157-W4654E85E7E00A15C8F4256A2F40 at phx.gbl>,
>     Kevin Reynolds <tpresence at hotmail.com> writes:
> 
> > Strangely enough, they seem to have everything EXCEPT the vt1300 :(
> 
> The 1300 is very similar to the 1200, but uses a different OS.
> 
> You'll need a system that can supply the VAXELN operating system to
> the terminal.
> 
> This article from Digital Technical Journal describes the X terminals
> made by DEC, including the VT1300:
> <ftp://ftp.linux-mips.org/pub/linux/mips/people/macro/DEC/DTJ/DTJ402/DTJ402PF.PDF>
> -- 
> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
>      The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
>          The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
>   Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
 		 	   		  

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun 15 01:50:05 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 23:50:05 -0700
Subject: BASIC rom compatibility
In-Reply-To: <4FDAB54B.5000804@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1SfGMr-000J4TC@p850ug1>, <4FDA56CD.3010609@neurotica.com>,
 <4FDAB54B.5000804@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4FDA78AD.3689.3434529@cclist.sydex.com>

On 14 Jun 2012 at 21:08, Eric Smith wrote:

> I'd wager that it's an almost literal translation of a late version of
> Microsoft BASIC-80, and I seem to recall that there are some commented
> disassemblies of that, so it shouldn't be too difficult.  It's
> probably not even that different than Microsoft's TRS-80 BASIC.

Does DOSBox allow for loading a PC ROM BASIC image?  There were some 
early PC programs that made calls directly into the BASIC ROM.

Just some idle curiosity....

--Chuck



From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com  Fri Jun 15 02:53:14 2012
From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 08:53:14 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEpeSdjo9LWfE-6h2rDwQkLeTwKkf2DEcTjWraX0zYwNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <CAMTenCEpeSdjo9LWfE-6h2rDwQkLeTwKkf2DEcTjWraX0zYwNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0BDE29CF0EC94856AF54DE125008A3AB@Edicons.local>


Will all those moving from DEC equipment to Raspberry Pi please contact me
to arrange collection of their unwanted DEC systems!!

Regards 
?
Rod Smallwood


-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Liam Proven
Sent: 13 June 2012 14:34
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...

On 12 June 2012 14:06, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
> Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards. ?Pretty slick:
>
> http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster

I thought that was pretty elite, as one might say, myself - and
Tweeted it, where it's now spreading quite well. :?)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884






From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Jun 15 03:10:40 2012
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 01:10:40 -0700
Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...
In-Reply-To: <0BDE29CF0EC94856AF54DE125008A3AB@Edicons.local>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <CAMTenCEpeSdjo9LWfE-6h2rDwQkLeTwKkf2DEcTjWraX0zYwNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0BDE29CF0EC94856AF54DE125008A3AB@Edicons.local>
Message-ID: <4FDAEE00.2020104@jwsss.com>

Is there a place with a description of all that one needs to set up to 
get the vax cluster going?  I'm thinking that my vmware system could 
host 4 to 8 linux boxes w/o a problem, but given the time I have to put 
into projects, I'd love to get pointers on where the best starting point 
is rather than a lot of hunting.  I've got pretty good familiarity with 
all the bits a pieces, but the devil is usually in the details when you 
start to try to find all the parts.  I'd certainly document what it 
takes to get it onto a multi vmware / simh system.

I've been doing some firewall testing with success on the setup, and if 
the traffic is routeable on the vmware virtual switches, I'd like to use 
this a another test of that.

thanks
Jim

On 6/15/2012 12:53 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> Will all those moving from DEC equipment to Raspberry Pi please contact me
> to arrange collection of their unwanted DEC systems!!
>
> Regards
>   
> Rod Smallwood
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
> On Behalf Of Liam Proven
> Sent: 13 June 2012 14:34
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...
>
> On 12 June 2012 14:06, Gene Buckle<geneb at deltasoft.com>  wrote:
>> Uses SIMH on a pair of Raspberry Pi boards.  Pretty slick:
>>
>> http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-vax-cluster
> I thought that was pretty elite, as one might say, myself - and
> Tweeted it, where it's now spreading quite well. :?)
>


From md.benson at gmail.com  Fri Jun 15 03:59:39 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 09:59:39 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi VAX Cluster...
In-Reply-To: <22486291.81433.1339749167473.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcru16>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206120606190.23661@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <CAMTenCEpeSdjo9LWfE-6h2rDwQkLeTwKkf2DEcTjWraX0zYwNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0BDE29CF0EC94856AF54DE125008A3AB@Edicons.local>
 <22486291.81433.1339749167473.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcru16>
Message-ID: <-7624998006129406758@unknownmsgid>

On 15 Jun 2012, at 09:14, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:

> Is there a place with a description of all that one needs to set up to
> get the vax cluster going?  I'm thinking that my vmware system could
> host 4 to 8 linux boxes w/o a problem, but given the time I have to put
> into projects, I'd love to get pointers on where the best starting point
> is rather than a lot of hunting.  I've got pretty good familiarity with
> all the bits a pieces, but the devil is usually in the details when you
> start to try to find all the parts.  I'd certainly document what it
> takes to get it onto a multi vmware / simh system.

I'm working on it for RaspberryPi, the procedure, minus the part about
preparing the OS SDHC card, is likely to be similar.

> I've been doing some firewall testing with success on the setup, and if
> the traffic is routeable on the vmware virtual switches, I'd like to use
> this a another test of that.

Sounds like an unteresting project, it could really prove viable with
something like a 4-thread i3 or i5 and 4GB of RAM to share out between
the VMs. I'd probably run a SSD or high speed disk for the partitions
to maximise I/O speed.


-- 
Mark Benson

http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson


From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Jun 15 09:35:26 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 08:35:26 -0600
Subject: DEC VT1300 (VXT1300) manual around
In-Reply-To: <BLU157-W43E9C1FF7E3151B366F5CA2F40@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU157-W9397E08E6A770CFA9F508A2F60@phx.gbl>, ,
 <E1Ses2V-0008S8-6T@shell.xmission.com>,
 <BLU157-W4654E85E7E00A15C8F4256A2F40@phx.gbl>,
 <E1SfCiI-0004Tw-IN@shell.xmission.com>
 <BLU157-W43E9C1FF7E3151B366F5CA2F40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E1SfXcU-0004CD-U2@shell.xmission.com>


In article <BLU157-W43E9C1FF7E3151B366F5CA2F40 at phx.gbl>,
    Kevin Reynolds <tpresence at hotmail.com> writes:

> The nice thing about the 1300 is that they provided dumb terminal
> capability as well.  There is a switch on the rear of the unit that allows
> you to select what personality it is, graphics or text.  Of course, for the
> time being, I have it being used as a dumb terminal.  My only real issue is
> that no terminal type seems to work 100% with the unit.  I have tried every
> available setting, as well as changing baud rates and such, but I haven't
> had any luck.

I guess this isn't so surprising; the terminal mode is probably only
considered a stopgap measure until you can configure the X Window
System to work properly.

> The terminal works, but any escape characters just get printed to the
> screen.  If I set it to any VT type, at least backspace works.

You'd be surprised how much code it is to support the full VT100
escape sequence set :-).
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From sellam at vintagetech.com  Thu Jun 14 02:01:28 2012
From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 00:01:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206140000190.13459@vintagetech.com>


If anyone owns an Apple-1, the peak of the bubble has arrived.  Sell yours 
NOW and then buy it back after the bubble bursts.

In the meantime, maybe buy a nice tulip to replace it.

--

Sellam Ismail                                                      VintageTech
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger            http://www.vintagetech.com

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple.


From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Jun 15 11:16:34 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 09:16:34 -0700
Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206140000190.13459@vintagetech.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206140000190.13459@vintagetech.com>
Message-ID: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org>

On 6/14/12 12:01 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote:
>
> If anyone owns an Apple-1, the peak of the bubble has arrived.  Sell yours
> NOW and then buy it back after the bubble bursts.
>
> In the meantime, maybe buy a nice tulip to replace it.
>

http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2012/books-manuscripts-n08864#/r=/en/ecat.fhtml.N08864.html+r.m=/en/ecat.lot.N08864.html/57/

$374,000



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Fri Jun 15 12:05:09 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:05:09 +0100
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <4FDA6A6E.8000409@gmail.com>
References: <07ef01cd419b$ac3b34b0$04b19e10$@ntlworld.com>
 <cam2uow+5dju6mh+pbpbdt2ei-3ukad7uahtsk3n5dughqzym4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <cam2uowj6qa9=fahpocgqksobdc=hy7olnsgqbtjnt0cze0r-sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <snt137-ds1067aa7387c08ead5832d281080@phx.gbl>
 <083901cd422d$5fcb4150$1f61c3f0$@ntlworld.com>
 <1043AB2089F.0000019An0body.h0me@inbox.com>
 <CAM2UOwJPvN_ny9zXP4TaPyZm1sBXRWBP90f_kLkNagskyxXH4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDA5DFF.8020901@gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKcnasCesSSsbSt2_SB+pnPsGiMu2t99w3ABz3UXnqoPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDA6A6E.8000409@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <024901cd4b19$06e3cb30$14ab6190$@ntlworld.com>

I have asked a similar question in the past and the shipping has turned out
to be much less, but not always. I am going to the USA in July, I wouldn't
mind a spare one of these cables, so if I could get him to ship me two
inside the US I could bring one back for you too.

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Wade
> Sent: 14 June 2012 23:49
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> 
> On 14/06/2012 23:27, Glen Slick wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Dave Wade<dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> On 14/06/2012 03:15, Glen Slick wrote:
> >>> I bought a couple of these BC19S cables to have as spares for $18
> >>> each, including shipping. Haven't seen a cheaper price recently.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300649403425
> >> Very nice, but $150 to ship to the UK? I could almost fly out and
> >> pick one up for that....
> >  From the USPS website:
> >
> > If it would fit into a USPS Priority MailR International Small Flat
> > Rate Box,  8-5/8" x 5-3/8" x 1-5/8", Maximum weight 4 pounds the
> > shipping would be $16.95.  I'm not sure if it would fit one of those
> > boxes without trying.  Maybe not.
> >
> > The next size up Priority MailR International Medium Flat Rate Box,
> > 13-5/8" x 11-7/8" x 3-3/8" or 11" x 8-1/2" x 5-1/2", Maximum weight 20
> > pounds is $47.95.
> >
> > No idea what the eBay shipping calculator is using to come up with the
> > $150 shipping.
> >
> I asked him why it was so expensive to ship to the UK, lets see if I get
an
> answer...
> 
> --
> Dave Wade G4UGM
> Illegitimi Non Carborundum



From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Jun 15 12:54:38 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 11:54:38 -0600
Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop
In-Reply-To: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206140000190.13459@vintagetech.com>
 <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <E1SfajG-0004FW-Q6@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FDB5FE2.4080100 at bitsavers.org>,
    Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> writes:

> On 6/14/12 12:01 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote:
> >
> > If anyone owns an Apple-1, the peak of the bubble has arrived.  Sell yours
> > NOW and then buy it back after the bubble bursts.
> >
> > In the meantime, maybe buy a nice tulip to replace it.
> >
> 
> http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2012/books-manuscripts-
n08864#/r=/en/ecat.fhtml.N08864.html+r.m=/en/ecat.lot.N08864.html/57/
> 
> $374,000

Ebay is going to be unusable for a while, now....
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Jun 15 13:21:39 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 11:21:39 -0700
Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop
In-Reply-To: <E1SfajG-0004FW-Q6@shell.xmission.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206140000190.13459@vintagetech.com>
 <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> <E1SfajG-0004FW-Q6@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4FDB7D33.9020000@bitsavers.org>

On 6/15/12 10:54 AM, Richard wrote:

>> $374,000
>
> Ebay is going to be unusable for a while, now....

I'm buying less and less there, which is probably a good thing.

There's just too much noise to wade through.




From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Jun 15 13:38:46 2012
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 11:38:46 -0700
Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop
In-Reply-To: <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206140000190.13459@vintagetech.com>
 <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com>

lots of bucks.  I'd like to see their actual provenance.  The box of 
text that came up in the catalog for provenance sucked.

I recently saw a memorabilia show which deals with Hollywood artifacts 
where they demanded DNA on some hair from Marilyn Monroe.  I'd think 
provenance on this besides the forensic exam (which they had on the hair 
for comparison) and the affidavits ( again that was present on the 
other) would include exact purchase dates, and chain of ownership.

Their provenance and notes just has historical notes, and that this one 
"works".  If I ponied up the money like this and they said there were 6 
working, I'd want to know which 6, and also whether this one is working 
w/o any mods, if so what mods, when mods, etc.  And complete chain of 
ownership.

A meeting with Wozniak wouldn't hurt either on the matter.

Jim

On 6/15/2012 9:16 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 6/14/12 12:01 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote:
>>
>> If anyone owns an Apple-1, the peak of the bubble has arrived.  Sell 
>> yours
>> NOW and then buy it back after the bubble bursts.
>>
>> In the meantime, maybe buy a nice tulip to replace it.
>>
>
> http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2012/books-manuscripts-n08864#/r=/en/ecat.fhtml.N08864.html+r.m=/en/ecat.lot.N08864.html/57/ 
>
>
> $374,000
>
>


From curt at atarimuseum.com  Fri Jun 15 13:50:35 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 14:50:35 -0400
Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop
In-Reply-To: <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206140000190.13459@vintagetech.com>
 <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <4FDB83FB.9050507@atarimuseum.com>

Yes, well everyone will now come out of the woodwork and saturate the 
market with them and they will drop quickly, though even the high end 
days of $10k-$15k appear to be gone...

watch out for counterfeits now more then ever... there is money and when 
the counterfeiters smell it, they will be hard at work now....



jim s wrote:
> lots of bucks.  I'd like to see their actual provenance.  The box of 
> text that came up in the catalog for provenance sucked.
>
> I recently saw a memorabilia show which deals with Hollywood artifacts 
> where they demanded DNA on some hair from Marilyn Monroe.  I'd think 
> provenance on this besides the forensic exam (which they had on the 
> hair for comparison) and the affidavits ( again that was present on 
> the other) would include exact purchase dates, and chain of ownership.
>
> Their provenance and notes just has historical notes, and that this 
> one "works".  If I ponied up the money like this and they said there 
> were 6 working, I'd want to know which 6, and also whether this one is 
> working w/o any mods, if so what mods, when mods, etc.  And complete 
> chain of ownership.
>
> A meeting with Wozniak wouldn't hurt either on the matter.
>
> Jim
>
> On 6/15/2012 9:16 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>> On 6/14/12 12:01 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote:
>>>
>>> If anyone owns an Apple-1, the peak of the bubble has arrived.  Sell 
>>> yours
>>> NOW and then buy it back after the bubble bursts.
>>>
>>> In the meantime, maybe buy a nice tulip to replace it.
>>>
>>
>> http://www.sothebys.com/en/catalogues/ecatalogue.html/2012/books-manuscripts-n08864#/r=/en/ecat.fhtml.N08864.html+r.m=/en/ecat.lot.N08864.html/57/ 
>>
>>
>> $374,000
>>
>>
>


From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 15 13:54:12 2012
From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 14:54:12 -0400
Subject: Upcoming N8 home brew computer PCBs ordered
In-Reply-To: <015f01cd474a$a9aea740$fd0bf5c0$@YAHOO.COM>
References: <015f01cd474a$a9aea740$fd0bf5c0$@YAHOO.COM>
Message-ID: <000601cd4b28$5a71b9b0$0f552d10$@YAHOO.COM>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
> On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 4:50 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Upcoming N8 home brew computer PCBs ordered
> 
> Hi!  Good news! I ordered at batch of the N8 PCBs.  The N8 is a group
project
> design from the N8VEM home brew computing project.  There is a detailed
> description at the N8VEM wiki below.
> 
> http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/54039670/N8%20announcement
> 
> http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=N8-final
> 
> Please contact me if interested.  I anticipate the PCBs will arrive early
next
> week ~19 Jul 2012
> 
> Thanks and have a nice day!
> 
> Andrew Lynch

The N8 PCBs have arrived!  Yay!  

Thanks to everyone who helped with the design and prototyping!

Have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch



From mc68010 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 15 14:05:29 2012
From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 12:05:29 -0700
Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop
In-Reply-To: <4FDB83FB.9050507@atarimuseum.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206140000190.13459@vintagetech.com>
 <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com>
 <4FDB83FB.9050507@atarimuseum.com>
Message-ID: <4FDB8779.1090102@gmail.com>

On 6/15/2012 11:50 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
> Yes, well everyone will now come out of the woodwork and saturate the 
> market with them and they will drop quickly, though even the high end 
> days of $10k-$15k appear to be gone...
>

I don't know there are enough of them out there to saturate anything. I 
suspect most people that have them aren't looking to sell them anyway. A 
glut of Apple I's on ebay is probably not something worth worrying about.


From evan at snarc.net  Fri Jun 15 14:19:11 2012
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 15:19:11 -0400
Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop
In-Reply-To: <4FDB83FB.9050507@atarimuseum.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206140000190.13459@vintagetech.com>
 <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com>
 <4FDB83FB.9050507@atarimuseum.com>
Message-ID: <4FDB8AAF.2020207@snarc.net>


> watch out for counterfeits now more then ever... there is money and 
> when the counterfeiters smell it, they will be hard at work now....

That's why the replica (a Willegal kit) at our museum is labeled as such 
and is locked up.


From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Jun 15 14:38:21 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 13:38:21 -0600
Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop
In-Reply-To: <4FDB7D33.9020000@bitsavers.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206140000190.13459@vintagetech.com>
 <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> <E1SfajG-0004FW-Q6@shell.xmission.com>
 <4FDB7D33.9020000@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <E1SfcLd-0004F0-Bs@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FDB7D33.9020000 at bitsavers.org>,
    Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> writes:

> On 6/15/12 10:54 AM, Richard wrote:
> 
> >> $374,000
> >
> > Ebay is going to be unusable for a while, now....
> 
> I'm buying less and less there, which is probably a good thing.

I'm buying less as well, but it's generally because there's less
showing up that's interesting at a reasonable price.  It's more the
supply than the price.  Terminals just aren't showing up much at all
anymore and given that I already have a good slice through the SGI
product line, there isn't much SGI showing up either.  As for lesser
known players in 3D graphics, they barely were showing up on ebay when
I started this little "hobby".

Lately I've been doing better by personal networking, including this list.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Jun 15 14:44:44 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 13:44:44 -0600
Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop
In-Reply-To: <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206140000190.13459@vintagetech.com>
 <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <E1SfcRo-0004eM-6b@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FDB8136.7010609 at jwsss.com>,
    jim s <jws at jwsss.com> writes:

> A meeting with Wozniak wouldn't hurt either on the matter.

I can get that at the company picnic :-)
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From hachti at hachti.de  Fri Jun 15 15:06:05 2012
From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:06:05 +0200
Subject: Apple-1 bubble is about to pop
In-Reply-To: <4FDB83FB.9050507@atarimuseum.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206140000190.13459@vintagetech.com>
 <4FDB5FE2.4080100@bitsavers.org> <4FDB8136.7010609@jwsss.com>
 <4FDB83FB.9050507@atarimuseum.com>
Message-ID: <4FDB95AD.9010000@hachti.de>

Am 15.06.2012 20:50, schrieb Curt @ Atari Museum:
> watch out for counterfeits now more then ever... there is money and when
> the counterfeiters smell it, they will be hard at work now....

A very good idea! Making a PCB that looks original won't be too 
difficult. Even the ICs with correct date codes could be found. Making 
the docs is more difficult.
But my main problem in making new Apple 1s is the fact that I don't have 
an original to copy....

Hehe :-)



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Jun 15 15:44:14 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 21:44:14 +0100
Subject: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
In-Reply-To: <024901cd4b19$06e3cb30$14ab6190$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <C37995770B3C4AC098F5741FF2C919D5@G4UGMT41>

Thanks Rob,

The answer I got was do I have a DHL account so I could arrange my own
shipping!. Any way Number 1 son has now completed his DPhil (Oxford Phd) and
is hopefully off to Utah later in the year, so perhaps there will still be
some for sale and I can get them shipped to him. Lets see how we go.  

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt
> Sent: 15 June 2012 18:05
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: RE: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> 
> 
> I have asked a similar question in the past and the shipping 
> has turned out to be much less, but not always. I am going to 
> the USA in July, I wouldn't mind a spare one of these cables, 
> so if I could get him to ship me two inside the US I could 
> bring one back for you too.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- 
> > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Wade
> > Sent: 14 June 2012 23:49
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > Subject: Re: Technical Specs for DEC Cables
> > 
> > On 14/06/2012 23:27, Glen Slick wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Dave Wade<dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >> On 14/06/2012 03:15, Glen Slick wrote:
> > >>> I bought a couple of these BC19S cables to have as 
> spares for $18 
> > >>> each, including shipping. Haven't seen a cheaper price recently.
> > >>>
> > >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300649403425
> > >> Very nice, but $150 to ship to the UK? I could almost 
> fly out and 
> > >> pick one up for that....
> > >  From the USPS website:
> > >
> > > If it would fit into a USPS Priority MailR International 
> Small Flat 
> > > Rate Box,  8-5/8" x 5-3/8" x 1-5/8", Maximum weight 4 pounds the 
> > > shipping would be $16.95.  I'm not sure if it would fit 
> one of those 
> > > boxes without trying.  Maybe not.
> > >
> > > The next size up Priority MailR International Medium Flat 
> Rate Box, 
> > > 13-5/8" x 11-7/8" x 3-3/8" or 11" x 8-1/2" x 5-1/2", 
> Maximum weight 
> > > 20 pounds is $47.95.
> > >
> > > No idea what the eBay shipping calculator is using to 
> come up with 
> > > the $150 shipping.
> > >
> > I asked him why it was so expensive to ship to the UK, lets 
> see if I 
> > get
> an
> > answer...
> > 
> > --
> > Dave Wade G4UGM
> > Illegitimi Non Carborundum
> 
> 




From kieron.wilkinson at gmail.com  Fri Jun 15 16:58:57 2012
From: kieron.wilkinson at gmail.com (Kieron Wilkinson)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:58:57 +0100
Subject: KryoFlux Update: Commodore 64
Message-ID: <CAOOzy=mDaGpef2gQrx=YhS8pxuGVHq+VJn9AjRve10Sd_jEjkQ@mail.gmail.com>

Here's an update from the KryoFlux team and it's for sure the hottest
thing that I have been given the pleasure to reveal over the last
twelve months. The post is long, but we have been very productive. :)

You might have noticed it's gotten a bit quiet after adding write
support to KryoFlux last summer. The reason is that behind the scenes
the next big thing has been prepared. We always felt that the C64
community was lacking a format that would give them the opportunity to
feed raw data more or less reliably into emulation. It turned out that
G64 was in fact capable of working for an estimated 95% of all
scenarios out there, but implementation in many emulators is so bad
that things the format has to offer simply don't work in emulation.
It's been a while since we said we'd not touch G64 as G64 was "bad",
"not working" and "giving people a false impression about preserving
things". While we stand firm that G64 is not the grail of a
preservation format, we must apologise for being stubborn in regard to
supporting it. Gladly many of you were stubborn, too, requesting G64
being supported, which finally led to the decision to do it right and
correct things as needed.

We turned to?Pete Rittwage?and his?C64 Preservation Project. We in
fact?had been in touch for years and we were happy Pete shared the
vision we?had and decided to not let us have the fun on our own:?"I am
more than?happy to?help push technology forward. ?I knew the
limitations of what I was doing?with the old 1541 hardware and was
excited to hear that work was being?done on the 64 with Kryoflux. ?I
was glad to fill a gap until more?high-resolution disk imaging was
available."? While this is flattering, it?would be an understatement
to call Pete's work a gap filler - his NibTools?are very much
appreciated among the C64 community. Another helping hand came from
Robert McIntyre?who already had helped modifying 5.25" drives to allow
for one-pass dumping of flippy disks.?The following months were spent
on research and getting things done, which finally led to a few
conclusions:

a. C64 preservation is still possible today, but results largely
depend on media quality and storage.
b. About 90% of games can be imaged with a 1541, 95% can be imaged
with KryoFlux and the last 5% can be imaged with KryoFlux as well, but
representation will need a more sophisticated format like our own IPF.
c. Nearly all emulators are "broken" in regard to G64 image support.
While some will go beyond the limit of 7928 bytes per track (which
seems to be the maximum track size chosen by many programmers), some
even don't support half tracks. This protection technique utilises the
fact that the 1541 has a head designed for a 40 track drive, but
features a stepping mechanism that can address 80 tracks. VICE, the
most popular, has several flaws in the floppy support code which makes
it impossible to use such images unaltered.

If you take the time to read Pete's pages
(http://www.c64preservation.com/) you will find many details on how to
modify or alter images to make them work in emulation. While some
changes are needed because the 1541 alters data before handing it over
to the host computer (which means this also happens with other devices
that work directly with it) the other half of changes are needed to
work around flaws present in certain emulators.

We decided it would not make much sense to release KryoFlux with
capabilities that would go beyond those of the emulators around which
is why we decided to also update VICE and give it extended G64 support
to load many images properly without any user interaction.?While
Softpres' Istv?n F?bi?n worked on creating an intelligent conversion
algorithm for DTC that would transform stream data into meaningful G64
representations, Robert focussed on exorcising VICE and fix/add the
features needed to make the 1541 in VICE behave like the real device.
To give the emulation the precision needed to also run the most
advanced protection methods, the trio even delved into the schematics
and created a logic model that was verified shortly after by Pete by
writing special test files back to disk with modified versions of
Nibtools and then comparing results. The data was seen as predicted.


So, after many months of research and hard work, about 1,000 C64 games
dumped, and many many emails later, we are proud to present:


1. DTC with enhanced G64 export.?Rated in percent, the success should
be good for 85%. Please make sure to not toss your stream files (which
are mandatory for generating G64 files) - you might need them to fix
images that won't work when we release the next version. If you get an
error telling you there was a problem converting to G64 - be sure
there was and the image is bad. DTC will refuse to convert to G64
directly from a floppy disk. You must create STREAM files first, to
avoid unnecessary stress applied to the ageing medium. Please read the
manual (especially page 19 and 20) about how this new exciting feature
works.

2. PREVIEW version of VICE with enhanced G64 support.?This is our
special gift to the community, and we're sure many users will
appreciate it. You won't need a KryoFlux to benefit from it, many
images that are floating around and needed to be fixed will now work
right away. We'll hopefully be working with the VICE team to get our
updates included in the official sources, but until that happens?we'll
continue to provide a second fork (W32 build as of today, source code)
on our site which will have extended G64 support.?The new circuitry
simulation code allows VICE to read data recorded at a?certain bitcell
density to be read back at a different bitcell density.?e.g. data
recorded at 3.5us to be read back at 3.5us correctly as well?as get
the expected results when reading at say 3.25us timing setting. E.g.
all RapidLok protected titles rely on this to be working ?Please note
that this preview does not yet enable half-track support, which will
come in an update within the next month. Please see the README file
included with the builds for further limitations, this still is a
PREVIEW version.

Here is a picture of a game that for sure won't run on an unmodified
version of VICE: "Defender Of The Crown" by Cinemaware.

http://kryoflux.com/pics/dotc_raiding.jpg

It features?V-MAX! v2 protection and performs a precise density check
on the disk as?soon as the player goes raiding. This image will not
run in the current?official build of VICE. To give you a chance to try
this new feature,?the G64 for "Defender Of The Crown", courtesy of CW
Holdings, Inc., is?included with the VICE build on our website. The
new build of VICE will?also run many other G64 files now that did fail
before. If you ever?tried some of?the early Rainbow Arts or Magic
Bytes titles (so called?BetaSkip protection by MWS), like Giana
Sisters, Turrican or Blue Angel?69... all of these should work
flawlessly now.



All of the above is available as of today. Just head over to
http://www.kryoflux.com?and grab the download of your choice.

We'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Please visit our forums (
http://forum.kryoflux.com ) and let us know!

Kieron
The KryoFlux Team



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 15 16:22:41 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:22:41 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <4FDA5810.4070101@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 14,
 12 05:30:56 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sfdyh-000J4TC@p850ug1>

>   Just to jump in...I don't know about machines, but at least one of the
> later MAX232 family chips can be configured to do this.  It's a

I've seen severail RS232 driver chips which have a logic-level input to 
turn off the SC0DC ocnverter and power them down, but Iv'e nto seen one 
that is controleld by a signal on one of the RS232 input lines. That 
seems like a misfeature to me.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 15 16:25:36 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:25:36 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
In-Reply-To: <4FD9FF93.1461.16A371C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 14, 12 03:13:23 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sfe1V-000J4WC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 14 Jun 2012 at 17:30, Dave McGuire wrote:
> 
> >   Just to jump in...I don't know about machines, but at least one of
> >   the
> > later MAX232 family chips can be configured to do this.  It's a
> > power-saving measure; it shuts down the charge pump.  Note that this
> > is not the "MAX232", but one of that family, which comprises upwards
> > of thirty completely different chips now.
> 
> Linear Technology EIA transceivers ; e.g. LT1080--pretty much have 
> always had that feature--with an ON/OFF pin.

Sure. But thwre's a bnig differnece iMHO between an RS232 driver that can 
be shut down to save power if the interface isn't being used, and one 
that is controleld by an RS23 input. The formr is useful. The latter is 
pain, if on;y because you presumably can't conenct 2 such machines 
together (bneither will power up irs drvier because the other machien's 
driver isn't pwoered up so the necessary input signal is not asserted). 

-tony


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri Jun 15 17:19:57 2012
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 16:19:57 -0600
Subject: Upcoming N8 home brew computer PCBs ordered
In-Reply-To: <000601cd4b28$5a71b9b0$0f552d10$@YAHOO.COM>
References: <015f01cd474a$a9aea740$fd0bf5c0$@YAHOO.COM>
 <000601cd4b28$5a71b9b0$0f552d10$@YAHOO.COM>
Message-ID: <4FDBB50D.5050600@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 6/15/2012 12:54 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:

> Thanks to everyone who helped with the design and prototyping!
What software is available?

> Have a nice day!
>
> Andrew Lynch
>
>
>



From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 15 19:36:33 2012
From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:36:33 -0400
Subject: Upcoming N8 home brew computer PCBs ordered
In-Reply-To: <4FDBB50D.5050600@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <015f01cd474a$a9aea740$fd0bf5c0$@YAHOO.COM>
 <000601cd4b28$5a71b9b0$0f552d10$@YAHOO.COM> <4FDBB50D.5050600@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <001801cd4b58$2128a710$6379f530$@YAHOO.COM>

> > Thanks to everyone who helped with the design and prototyping!
> What software is available?

CP/M 2.2, CP/M 3.0, Z-System, MSX C-BIOS plus debug monitor

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/54039670/N8%20announcement



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 15 20:17:18 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:17:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
Message-ID: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I still have many many many large tomes and other printed material, including vintage docs, that needs to be committed to digital format. I'm always building something, and I gathered a hodge podge of materials in an attempt to fenagle my own document feeder (first thought I'd use a scanner or pair, later said screw that I'll just use a digital camera). Non destructive scanning isn't necessarily a whole lot more difficult in my estimation (using whatever curdled gray matter I have left), but who needs any more complexity then is necessary, so I opted for destructive scanning (where you rip the spine of the book apart and jam it in the mechanism). Then strolling through Target, I noticed the Epson Workforce 645 which allegedly can take a stack of 30 sheets and scan both sides. I'd prefer 30,000 sheets, but beggars can't always be choosers. So I bought it, but have yet to open it (my ethic states I shouldn't crack an item unless I'm somewhat positive I'll
 keep it. I _rarely_ return something I open. It bothers me to). So I would just like to ask if any of you all have delved into this. A piddly 30 sheet document feeder still requires you to "be there", although I suppose I could catch up on twiddling my thumbs at least while I reduce oh 300 books to bits and bytes.


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Jun 15 20:41:44 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 21:41:44 -0400
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FDBE458.208@neurotica.com>

On 06/15/2012 09:17 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> I still have many many many large tomes and other printed material,
> including vintage docs, that needs to be committed to digital format.
> I'm always building something, and I gathered a hodge podge of
> materials in an attempt to fenagle my own document feeder (first
> thought I'd use a scanner or pair, later said screw that I'll just
> use a digital camera). Non destructive scanning isn't necessarily a
> whole lot more difficult in my estimation (using whatever curdled
> gray matter I have left), but who needs any more complexity then is
> necessary, so I opted for destructive scanning (where you rip the
> spine of the book apart and jam it in the mechanism). Then strolling
> through Target, I noticed the Epson Workforce 645 which allegedly can
> take a stack of 30 sheets and scan both sides. I'd prefer 30,000
> sheets, but beggars can't always be choosers. So I bought it, but
> have yet to open it (my ethic states I shouldn't crack an item unless
> I'm somewhat positive I'll keep it. I _rarely_ return something I
> open. It bothers me to). So I would just like to ask if any of you
> all have delved into this. A piddly 30 sheet document feeder still
> requires you to "be there", although I suppose I could catch up on
> twiddling my thumbs at least while I reduce oh 300 books to bits and
> bytes.

  I'd think it'd almost always be preferable to get a used, older, but
made of metal and built like a tank REAL production scanner on the
surplus market than a plastic piece of consumer crap that's designed to
break after a few uses.

  Not at all insulting you for your purchase, but we all know how crappy
the consumer stuff is nowadays.  I'd return it and put your money into
something beefy that'll actually last through those books.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 15 20:50:25 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 18:50:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <4FDBE458.208@neurotica.com>
References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FDBE458.208@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <1339811425.56394.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>





________________________________
 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>

? Not at all insulting you for your purchase, but we all know how crappy
the consumer stuff is nowadays.? I'd return it and put your money into
something beefy that'll actually last through those books.

C: I don't have time to shop around for some old monster. If I did I might.


From curt at atarimuseum.com  Fri Jun 15 21:00:10 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:00:10 -0400
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FDBE8AA.2070709@atarimuseum.com>

Consider a Ricoh IE450DE, exceptionally fast, large ADF (holds 150pp) 
and wide flatbed scanning surface.   It does duplex scanning as well.   
Its SCSI based, so you'll need a card.    Been using one for over a 
year, it is a fantastic workhorse and makes short work over 150 page 
documents in short order.     Is Twain and ISIS compatible.   I use it 
through Adobe Acrobat to create PDF's of engineering documents, court 
depo's, chip spec sheets, scanning in manuals, books, etc....

Really good for large D and even E sized mechanical and schematic 
sheets, can usually do an E size in 6 passes and then stitch the images 
together very easily in photoshop.   You can usually find a good one off 
of Ebay for anywhere from $500-$800.





Chris Tofu wrote:
> I still have many many many large tomes and other printed material, including vintage docs, that needs to be committed to digital format. I'm always building something, and I gathered a hodge podge of materials in an attempt to fenagle my own document feeder (first thought I'd use a scanner or pair, later said screw that I'll just use a digital camera). Non destructive scanning isn't necessarily a whole lot more difficult in my estimation (using whatever curdled gray matter I have left), but who needs any more complexity then is necessary, so I opted for destructive scanning (where you rip the spine of the book apart and jam it in the mechanism). Then strolling through Target, I noticed the Epson Workforce 645 which allegedly can take a stack of 30 sheets and scan both sides. I'd prefer 30,000 sheets, but beggars can't always be choosers. So I bought it, but have yet to open it (my ethic states I shouldn't crack an item unless I'm somewhat positive I'll
>  keep it. I _rarely_ return something I open. It bothers me to). So I would just like to ask if any of you all have delved into this. A piddly 30 sheet document feeder still requires you to "be there", although I suppose I could catch up on twiddling my thumbs at least while I reduce oh 300 books to bits and bytes.
>
>   




From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Jun 15 21:01:57 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:01:57 -0600
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1SfiKr-0007iw-Lu@shell.xmission.com>

I don't have experience with that particular model, but I have been
using a sheet feeding scanner/copier/printer at work and it's great
compared to what I was doing one side at a time by hand with my home
scanner.  The work scanner goes straight to PDF with good results.

If I had a large pile such as you describe, I would consider renting
such a unit from an office equipment rental agency.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From tosteve at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 15 21:26:50 2012
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 19:26:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1339813610.46596.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I have used the Epson Workforce 645 - jammed a lot - I returned it.
I now use the Fujitsu Scansnap S1500 to scan BYTE and other magazines.
Works great, I love it - about $500 new.




--- On Fri, 6/15/12, Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com>
> Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
> To: "General Discussion: On- Topic and Off- Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Date: Friday, June 15, 2012, 6:17 PM
> I still have many many many large
> tomes and other printed material, including vintage docs,
> that needs to be committed to digital format. I'm always
> building something, and I gathered a hodge podge of
> materials in an attempt to fenagle my own document feeder
> (first thought I'd use a scanner or pair, later said screw
> that I'll just use a digital camera). Non destructive
> scanning isn't necessarily a whole lot more difficult in my
> estimation (using whatever curdled gray matter I have left),
> but who needs any more complexity then is necessary, so I
> opted for destructive scanning (where you rip the spine of
> the book apart and jam it in the mechanism). Then strolling
> through Target, I noticed the Epson Workforce 645 which
> allegedly can take a stack of 30 sheets and scan both sides.
> I'd prefer 30,000 sheets, but beggars can't always be
> choosers. So I bought it, but have yet to open it (my ethic
> states I shouldn't crack an item unless I'm somewhat
> positive I'll
>  keep it. I _rarely_ return something I open. It bothers me
> to). So I would just like to ask if any of you all have
> delved into this. A piddly 30 sheet document feeder still
> requires you to "be there", although I suppose I could catch
> up on twiddling my thumbs at least while I reduce oh 300
> books to bits and bytes.
> 


From halarewich at gmail.com  Fri Jun 15 22:19:26 2012
From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:19:26 -0700
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <1339813610.46596.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1339813610.46596.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CA+A6M=h964z4f-g=zxx8jiHz=1eF-n0GwmcczhQywnmK6AeARw@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RICOH-IS450SE-IS450-Series-Flatbed-Image-Scanner-11-x-17-Max-Doc-Size-/200773716205?pt=US_Scanners&hash=item2ebf0bc8ed

$500 not my auction ymmv

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 7:26 PM, steven stengel <tosteve at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I have used the Epson Workforce 645 - jammed a lot - I returned it.
> I now use the Fujitsu Scansnap S1500 to scan BYTE and other magazines.
> Works great, I love it - about $500 new.
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 6/15/12, Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
> > To: "General Discussion: On- Topic and Off- Topic Posts" <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Date: Friday, June 15, 2012, 6:17 PM
> > I still have many many many large
> > tomes and other printed material, including vintage docs,
> > that needs to be committed to digital format. I'm always
> > building something, and I gathered a hodge podge of
> > materials in an attempt to fenagle my own document feeder
> > (first thought I'd use a scanner or pair, later said screw
> > that I'll just use a digital camera). Non destructive
> > scanning isn't necessarily a whole lot more difficult in my
> > estimation (using whatever curdled gray matter I have left),
> > but who needs any more complexity then is necessary, so I
> > opted for destructive scanning (where you rip the spine of
> > the book apart and jam it in the mechanism). Then strolling
> > through Target, I noticed the Epson Workforce 645 which
> > allegedly can take a stack of 30 sheets and scan both sides.
> > I'd prefer 30,000 sheets, but beggars can't always be
> > choosers. So I bought it, but have yet to open it (my ethic
> > states I shouldn't crack an item unless I'm somewhat
> > positive I'll
> >  keep it. I _rarely_ return something I open. It bothers me
> > to). So I would just like to ask if any of you all have
> > delved into this. A piddly 30 sheet document feeder still
> > requires you to "be there", although I suppose I could catch
> > up on twiddling my thumbs at least while I reduce oh 300
> > books to bits and bytes.
> >
>


From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Jun 15 22:22:52 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 21:22:52 -0600
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <4FDBE8AA.2070709@atarimuseum.com>
References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FDBE8AA.2070709@atarimuseum.com>
Message-ID: <E1SfjbA-00057z-A5@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FDBE8AA.2070709 at atarimuseum.com>,
    "Curt @ Atari Museum" <curt at atarimuseum.com> writes:

> Really good for large D and even E sized mechanical and schematic 
> sheets, can usually do an E size in 6 passes and then stitch the images 
> together very easily in photoshop.

I found that stitching together images in Microsoft ICE is the least
painful stitching I've found yet.  It's literally like 3 clicks and
you get a stitched image.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_ICE>
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From g-wright at att.net  Fri Jun 15 23:42:45 2012
From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 21:42:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Disks packs 4477 in  Washington State surplus
Message-ID: <1339821765.99150.YahooMailRC@web83812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Washington state surplus has a Large lot of  Media up
for grabs.  Mostly 9 track tapes but there  is some 4477 
disk packs in there. 

this is a large lot.   7000 lbs

No info about being bulk erased 

http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=738159


-Jerry



From curt at atarimuseum.com  Fri Jun 15 23:52:13 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 00:52:13 -0400
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <E1SfjbA-00057z-A5@shell.xmission.com>
References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FDBE8AA.2070709@atarimuseum.com> <E1SfjbA-00057z-A5@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4FDC10FD.50008@atarimuseum.com>

Thanks Rich,

  Just looked at the website for it, downloading and installing it now, 
every little bit helps :-)




Richard wrote:
> In article <4FDBE8AA.2070709 at atarimuseum.com>,
>     "Curt @ Atari Museum" <curt at atarimuseum.com> writes:
>
>   
>> Really good for large D and even E sized mechanical and schematic 
>> sheets, can usually do an E size in 6 passes and then stitch the images 
>> together very easily in photoshop.
>>     
>
> I found that stitching together images in Microsoft ICE is the least
> painful stitching I've found yet.  It's literally like 3 clicks and
> you get a stitched image.
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_ICE>
>   


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Jun 15 23:58:48 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 00:58:48 -0400
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <1339811425.56394.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FDBE458.208@neurotica.com>
 <1339811425.56394.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FDC1288.5090603@neurotica.com>

On 06/15/2012 09:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
>   Not at all insulting you for your purchase, but we all know how crappy
> the consumer stuff is nowadays.  I'd return it and put your money into
> something beefy that'll actually last through those books.
> 
> C: I don't have time to shop around for some old monster. If I did I might.

  The right tool for this job, however is "some monster", whether old or
new.  Do you really think using a consumer-level scanner will save you
time on this particular project? ;)

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From tosteve at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 16 03:51:39 2012
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 01:51:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ebay: 70 Commodore PETs for sale (Boise, ID)
Message-ID: <1339836699.80980.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Not my auction, but awesome!

330748180850





From tosteve at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 16 03:51:34 2012
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 01:51:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ebay: 70 Commodore PETs for sale (Boise, ID)
Message-ID: <1339836694.77505.YahooMailClassic@web110611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Not my auction, but awesome!

330748180850





From jeffj at panix.com  Fri Jun 15 02:33:31 2012
From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 03:33:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1206150323190.7837@panix5.panix.com>

Re: Microvax connecting from console (MMJ) to DB25(female) DCE port

>> I've even seen one device which powers down its transmitter unless
>> it sees at least one input pin being driven.

> Just to jump in...I don't know about machines,
> but at least one of the later MAX232 family chips can be configured to do this.
> It's a power-saving measure; it shuts down the charge pump.
> Note that this is not the "MAX232", but one of that family,
> which comprises upwards of thirty completely different chips now.

And someone mentioned another driver chip that can tri-state the drivers.
I once worked in an environment that kinda used that feature
to allow many RS232 devices to share one line.
It was a broadcast-mostly hub-network where clients could
send requests, but they were normally transmit-disabled.
It was collision NON-detect: lack of an ack implied a transmit collision.

Mfgrs such as Black Box also made MSU: Modem Sharing Unit.
The dumb ones just "or-ed" together the inputs.
The "smart" ones used a protocol for
multiplexing many serial ports to one.

I guess EIA-422 or 485 would be better suited for that,
but I suspect the network evolved
from single point to point links to multidrop.

-- jeffj



From jimpdavis at gorge.net  Sat Jun 16 00:12:42 2012
From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2012 22:12:42 -0700
Subject: Disks packs 4477 in  Washington State surplus
In-Reply-To: <1339821765.99150.YahooMailRC@web83812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339821765.99150.YahooMailRC@web83812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FDC15CA.7000701@gorge.net>

I wonder if the packs were bulk erased, most likely turning them into 
aluminum scrap.
-jim

Jerry Wright wrote:
> Washington state surplus has a Large lot of  Media up
> for grabs.  Mostly 9 track tapes but there  is some 4477
> disk packs in there.
>
> this is a large lot.   7000 lbs
>
> No info about being bulk erased
>
> http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=738159
>
>
> -Jerry
>
>
>    



From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sat Jun 16 04:25:25 2012
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 04:25:25 -0500
Subject: Disks packs 4477 in Washington State surplus
In-Reply-To: <4FDC15CA.7000701@gorge.net>
References: <1339821765.99150.YahooMailRC@web83812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
 <4FDC15CA.7000701@gorge.net>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs234=RLLXQ2JhP9AzLPeisCAqYVumkwrG2EqBSYrXQ3DJw@mail.gmail.com>

what makes them scrap?


From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Sat Jun 16 04:34:46 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 11:34:46 +0200
Subject: Disks packs 4477 in Washington State surplus
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs234=RLLXQ2JhP9AzLPeisCAqYVumkwrG2EqBSYrXQ3DJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1339821765.99150.YahooMailRC@web83812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
 <4FDC15CA.7000701@gorge.net>
 <CAA3rs234=RLLXQ2JhP9AzLPeisCAqYVumkwrG2EqBSYrXQ3DJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5TpFQ8cqB6Uz=owNiADQAoZGXK=gjPmM6+c_sBAXJrZaQ@mail.gmail.com>

> what makes them scrap?

Destroyed servo tracks on the servo platter.


From mike at fenz.net  Sat Jun 16 04:38:08 2012
From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 21:38:08 +1200
Subject: ebay: 70 Commodore PETs for sale (Boise, ID)
In-Reply-To: <1339836699.80980.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339836699.80980.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FDC5400.7020305@fenz.net>

Awesome indeed. The seller says 'They were acquired for recycling 
purposes but we have decided to sell as is to free up space in the 
warehouse for other inventory.' Surely they mean 'Selling these because 
the $4300 we think we'll get for them eclipses the recycled materials' 
value by at least a factor of ten.' And that's a good thing, in my opinion.

On 16/06/2012 8:51 p.m., steven stengel wrote:
> Not my auction, but awesome!
>
> 330748180850
>
>
>
>



From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sat Jun 16 04:48:00 2012
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 04:48:00 -0500
Subject: Disks packs 4477 in Washington State surplus
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5TpFQ8cqB6Uz=owNiADQAoZGXK=gjPmM6+c_sBAXJrZaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1339821765.99150.YahooMailRC@web83812.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
 <4FDC15CA.7000701@gorge.net>
 <CAA3rs234=RLLXQ2JhP9AzLPeisCAqYVumkwrG2EqBSYrXQ3DJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+0-H5TpFQ8cqB6Uz=owNiADQAoZGXK=gjPmM6+c_sBAXJrZaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23DUyw80aMvvJxCdiDM3z5g0FqLKOo8Vjsh6F1jXz_q7A@mail.gmail.com>

o :(

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 4:34 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven <iamcamiel at gmail.com>wrote:

> > what makes them scrap?
>
> Destroyed servo tracks on the servo platter.
>


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Jun 16 06:34:29 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 07:34:29 -0400
Subject: ebay: 70 Commodore PETs for sale (Boise, ID)
In-Reply-To: <4FDC5400.7020305@fenz.net>
References: <1339836699.80980.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <4FDC5400.7020305@fenz.net>
Message-ID: <4FDC6F45.9040504@neurotica.com>


  I dunno Mike, I don't think I can fault this guy for this. (and I can
usually fault someone for ANYTHING)  I think $61.00/ea is quite good
price for a Pet, in any condition.

  If I had the spare cash lying around, I'd buy the lot, perform any
necessary repairs, and dole them out to the collector community at
$100/ea, and still end up giving people good deals.

               -Dave

On 06/16/2012 05:38 AM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote:
> Awesome indeed. The seller says 'They were acquired for recycling
> purposes but we have decided to sell as is to free up space in the
> warehouse for other inventory.' Surely they mean 'Selling these because
> the $4300 we think we'll get for them eclipses the recycled materials'
> value by at least a factor of ten.' And that's a good thing, in my opinion.
> 
> On 16/06/2012 8:51 p.m., steven stengel wrote:
>> Not my auction, but awesome!
>>
>> 330748180850
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 


-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Sat Jun 16 07:56:54 2012
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 08:56:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PDP-1 Music
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206160855590.16987@cpumagic.137clearview.org>


Ebay #170861205626

    Perhaps someone at the CHM could ask Peter Samson if he knows about it?


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology	      http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 16 08:35:51 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 06:35:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
Message-ID: <1339853751.73190.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


There at least exists the possibility it will. I also dont have 5-800$ to spend. W/o building something or using a consumes product, I have to do it by hand.
------------------------------
 On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:58 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote:
 
 >On 06/15/2012 09:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
 >> Not at all insulting you for your purchase, but we all know how crappy
 >> the consumer stuff is nowadays. I'd return it and put your money into
 >> something beefy that'll actually last through those books.
 >> 
 >> C: I don't have time to shop around for some old monster. If I did I might.
 >
 > The right tool for this job, however is "some monster", whether old or
 >new. Do you really think using a consumer-level scanner will save you
 >time on this particular project? ;)
 >
 > -Dave
 >
 >-- 
 >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
 >New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Jun 16 08:41:36 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 09:41:36 -0400
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <1339853751.73190.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339853751.73190.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FDC8D10.1060906@neurotica.com>


  Good luck..

      -Dave

On 06/16/2012 09:35 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> 
> There at least exists the possibility it will. I also dont have 5-800$ to spend. W/o building something or using a consumes product, I have to do it by hand.
> ------------------------------
>  On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:58 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote:
>  
>  >On 06/15/2012 09:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
>  >> Not at all insulting you for your purchase, but we all know how crappy
>  >> the consumer stuff is nowadays. I'd return it and put your money into
>  >> something beefy that'll actually last through those books.
>  >> 
>  >> C: I don't have time to shop around for some old monster. If I did I might.
>  >
>  > The right tool for this job, however is "some monster", whether old or
>  >new. Do you really think using a consumer-level scanner will save you
>  >time on this particular project? ;)
>  >
>  > -Dave
>  >
>  >-- 
>  >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
>  >New Kensington, PA


-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From ian_primus at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 16 09:16:44 2012
From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 07:16:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1339856204.53474.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

--- On Fri, 6/15/12, Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Then strolling
> through Target, I noticed the Epson Workforce 645 which
> allegedly can take a stack of 30 sheets and scan both sides.
> I'd prefer 30,000 sheets, but beggars can't always be
> choosers. So I bought it, but have yet to open it (my ethic
> states I shouldn't crack an item unless I'm somewhat
> positive I'll
>  keep it. I _rarely_ return something I open. It bothers me
> to). So I would just like to ask if any of you all have
> delved into this. A piddly 30 sheet document feeder still
> requires you to "be there", although I suppose I could catch
> up on twiddling my thumbs at least while I reduce oh 300
> books to bits and bytes.

You're going to drive yourself mad. Having done printer and scanner repair for years, I can say, that your machine will be way more trouble than it's worth. It's NOT intended for scanning huge tomes of paper. It's meant for scanning in a dozen sheets every month or so, not hundreds in one night.

Cheap ADF's are of poor quality, frequently feed pages crooked, and wear out quickly. You're going to have a hell of a time stopping and resetting after every time it picks two pages, or jams. Once the rollers wear out, you won't be able to replace them either, since parts won't be available - or you'll have to replace the whole assembly, since the individual roller or sep pad you need is not available.

Low quality machines like this are designed for very light duty use. Many people just don't get this. Like when the DMV bought tons of cheap Samsung desktop laser printers for printing on registration forms (smaller than normal paper, loaded in the manual tray). I was replacing manual tray pick assemblies left and right. That front tray was never intended to be used a hundred times a day, every day. And individual components for the printers weren't available either, you had to replace the whole assembly. Yet, we had exactly the same printer in our office, being used for receiving incoming faxes and nothing else. It never once broke - but we only put a thousand prints on it a year. It's a hundred dollar printer. You get what you pay for. Use it for what it was meant for, and it'll be fine.

So, basically, if you want to scan more than one or two books, get a real scanner. You won't be able to get it from Wal-Mart. You'll have to spend some actual money on it if you buy new. Spend a few hours researching, you should be able to find a used machine on eBay that'll serve you well for a reasonable cost. It'll still be probably three times what you paid for the copy/scan/fax/print/answering machine/clock/radio/slices/dices/salad shooter thing you bought, but on the other hand, you won't throw it out the window in frustration after you've spent six hours trying to scan a five hundred page manual and it keeps feeding two sheets at a time, so you're sitting there putting pressure on the stack of paper just right so it picks correctly.

Or, you could just use your machine until it does break, then return it as defective. And they may have improved the quality of this kind of device in the last few years. I have been out of the "printer service" trenches for four years or so (of course I can still change the swing plate in a 4250 in record time), so perhaps they've managed to figure out how to make a pick assembly in a consumer printer that'll last more than two thousand pages. I don't know.

YMMV. Batteries not included. Starter ink only.

-Ian


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 16 10:50:22 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 08:50:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
Message-ID: <1339861822.97680.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


Luck isnt necessary. Ingenuity is.
------------------------------
 On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 6:41 AM PDT Dave McGuire wrote:
 
 >
 > Good luck..
 >
 > -Dave
 >
 >On 06/16/2012 09:35 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
 >> 
 >> There at least exists the possibility it will. I also dont have 5-800$ to spend. W/o building something or using a consumes product, I have to do it by hand.
 >> ------------------------------
 >> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:58 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote:
 >> 
 >> >On 06/15/2012 09:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
 >> > Not at all insulting you for your purchase, but we all know how crappy
 >> > the consumer stuff is nowadays. I'd return it and put your money into
 >> > something beefy that'll actually last through those books.
 >> > 
 >> > C: I don't have time to shop around for some old monster. If I did I might.
 >> >
 >> > The right tool for this job, however is "some monster", whether old or
 >> >new. Do you really think using a consumer-level scanner will save you
 >> >time on this particular project? ;)
 >> >
 >> > -Dave
 >> >
 >> >-- 
 >> >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
 >> >New Kensington, PA
 >
 >
 >-- 
 >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
 >New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Jun 16 11:04:54 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 12:04:54 -0400
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <1339861822.97680.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339861822.97680.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FDCAEA6.7050807@neurotica.com>


  Well then: "I wish you success."

        -Dave

On 06/16/2012 11:50 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> 
> Luck isnt necessary. Ingenuity is.
> ------------------------------
>  On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 6:41 AM PDT Dave McGuire wrote:
>  
>  >
>  > Good luck..
>  >
>  > -Dave
>  >
>  >On 06/16/2012 09:35 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
>  >> 
>  >> There at least exists the possibility it will. I also dont have 5-800$ to spend. W/o building something or using a consumes product, I have to do it by hand.
>  >> ------------------------------
>  >> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 9:58 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote:
>  >> 
>  >> >On 06/15/2012 09:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
>  >> > Not at all insulting you for your purchase, but we all know how crappy
>  >> > the consumer stuff is nowadays. I'd return it and put your money into
>  >> > something beefy that'll actually last through those books.
>  >> > 
>  >> > C: I don't have time to shop around for some old monster. If I did I might.
>  >> >
>  >> > The right tool for this job, however is "some monster", whether old or
>  >> >new. Do you really think using a consumer-level scanner will save you
>  >> >time on this particular project? ;)
>  >> >
>  >> > -Dave
>  >> >
>  >> >-- 
>  >> >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
>  >> >New Kensington, PA
>  >
>  >
>  >-- 
>  >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
>  >New Kensington, PA


-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 16 12:33:05 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 10:33:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
Message-ID: <1339867985.70264.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


No the unit I already returned (unopened) wasnt designed for big batches or even longevity necessarily, but document feeding, the crux of the matter, is no feat. People have and I seem to recall there even being one commercial product that turned a copier into a document scanner. Accurate and reliable document feeders are often left on the side of the road.


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Jun 16 12:51:36 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 13:51:36 -0400
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <1339867985.70264.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339867985.70264.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FDCC7A8.4060103@neurotica.com>

On 06/16/2012 01:33 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> No the unit I already returned (unopened) wasnt designed for big
> batches or even longevity necessarily, but document feeding, the crux
> of the matter, is no feat. People have and I seem to recall there
> even being one commercial product that turned a copier into a
> document scanner. Accurate and reliable document feeders are often
> left on the side of the road.

  You haven't had to work on many of them, have you. ;)  I worked on
paper feed systems (Ziyad feeders for Canon CX engine-based laser
printers, as well as the printers themselves) for several years when
those printers were en vogue.

  That experience left me with the sincere hope that I never have to
work on another paper-handling device again, as well as the insistence
that any printer I own will be built to print all day, every day and
likely end up being a two-man lift. (which they both are, HP 8100DN and
8550DN)

  Yes, paper feeding is, in fact, a feat.  Yes, it is done all over the
place, and has been for many decades, but that doesn't make it any less
a feat, nor does it make it any less failure-prone.  Document feeding in
particular is much harder, because (in comparison to printing) it
suddenly matters if you pick up two sheets at once, and you can often
bet that the paper is of less-than-straight-off-the-ream edge quality

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Sat Jun 16 12:54:36 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 19:54:36 +0200
Subject: Second P800 haul and Nova 4
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5S19jtSKz0HhoecrYQseK+4UMAzXCwMkUD8vJDVv75qhg@mail.gmail.com>

I just picked up the second batch of P800 stuff. The seller found some
more items that were meant to be part of the sale in the first place.
I also picked up a Nova 4 I bought off him too. Any pointers to Nova 4
documentation are extremely welcome.

The P800 stuff consisted of an extension cabinets with some cards,
some 8" floppies, and more X1215 disk packs.

Cards:

- 3 x MCU2
- 4 x AMA-8A
- HLVCUB

The HLVCUB is a card I haven't seen before. It's got two N8X300
microcontrollers on it, two SCN2652A serial controllers, and two
26-pin connectors. Looks like a hefty two-channel synchronous
communications card.

Floppies are labeled:

- "Tools : (LP) / IPL ADDR: 60C5 / Monitor: type (?)"
- "Rotterdam test system 29-03-'84"
- "T. Wilders / Test Software S.M. / BMEX0 in TSWCOM module / User:
BMEX  Start: $RUN"
- "Very Special / Utilities R1.0 83-06-01 / P5011 / SYS / User: PRK300
/ ASG 1E0,DK,PRECDC"
- "Userid: TOOL Date 84.03.26 / :BASIC / Address of FL-Drives=03!!!"
- "CP101 83.11.25 / Userid: SYS"
- "RT Floppy"
- "$TDES"
- "Label: CP101 Date 84.01.10 / Userid: LUC"
- "RS740 MAGAZIJN / BASIC / RUN "I""
- "RS747 CARD CATALOG / BASIC I"
- "RS775 / CPU P857EB / EPS 811118"
- "RS776 / CP7R"

Disk packs are labeled:

- "CPU ISCOS 70 / 4022 250 0004.1 / PAB nr 8122 141 0470.1 / BD83"
- "Graphics 8P-A / 4022 226 3470.1 / PAB nr 8122 141 0286.1 / BD58"
- "VIP V12 / 4311 027 1629.1 / PAB nr 8122 141 0277.1 / BD51"
- "Ext Mem Mod 286 / 4022 226 2340.1 / PAB nr 8122 141 0456.1 / BD82"
- "DOM811 adr/02 intr/11 / terminal adr/10 intr/6 / update test
programs 27-09-84 / IPL/65C2"
- "X1216 IPL 63C2 / Test programs updare 85-12-18 / -DOM9 A/02 IT/10
FL/03 IT/11 / Userid: SDAPRO / s$$LOAD
- "LAB Backup"
- "TEST TP1 / R=0002"
- "FPPKENIA"
- 3 x PHILIPS unlabeled
- 2 x CDC unlabeled
- 1 x MEMOREX unlabeled

If anything sounds familiar, please let me know.

Cheers,

Camiel


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Jun 16 13:20:20 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 11:20:20 -0700
Subject: PDP-1 Music
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206160855590.16987@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1206160855590.16987@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <4FDCCE64.6010008@bitsavers.org>

On 6/16/12 5:56 AM, Mike Loewen wrote:
>
> Ebay #170861205626
>
> Perhaps someone at the CHM could ask Peter Samson if he knows about it?
>

This was done after Peter left. No one we've talked to knows who did this recording.



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 16 13:33:19 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 11:33:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
Message-ID: <1339871599.74012.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


an awful lot of it seems to get done despite youre experience in the industry (10 years ago? 20?). We had something maybe a Canon, at a job 8 years ago, often reliably taking print and even that skinny fanfold garbage simultaneously. Did it draw 2  pages in periodically, short of spending ~a grand, Im sure anything will. I would think an 80-90% percent success rate for a relatively short job (i.e not long term professional activity) would be tolerable. You can always manually redo those wayfaring missed pages. This forum has nearly nothing to do with anything professional. But anything, including hobbies warrants some patience. And dumping significant cash or having people tell you it cant be done otherwise doesnt make sense.
------------------------------
 On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 10:51 AM PDT Dave McGuire wrote:
 
 >On 06/16/2012 01:33 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
 >> No the unit I already returned (unopened) wasnt designed for big
 >> batches or even longevity necessarily, but document feeding, the crux
 >> of the matter, is no feat. People have and I seem to recall there
 >> even being one commercial product that turned a copier into a
 >> document scanner. Accurate and reliable document feeders are often
 >> left on the side of the road.
 >
 > You haven't had to work on many of them, have you. ;) I worked on
 >paper feed systems (Ziyad feeders for Canon CX engine-based laser
 >printers, as well as the printers themselves) for several years when
 >those printers were en vogue.
 >
 > That experience left me with the sincere hope that I never have to
 >work on another paper-handling device again, as well as the insistence
 >that any printer I own will be built to print all day, every day and
 >likely end up being a two-man lift. (which they both are, HP 8100DN and
 >8550DN)
 >
 > Yes, paper feeding is, in fact, a feat. Yes, it is done all over the
 >place, and has been for many decades, but that doesn't make it any less
 >a feat, nor does it make it any less failure-prone. Document feeding in
 >particular is much harder, because (in comparison to printing) it
 >suddenly matters if you pick up two sheets at once, and you can often
 >bet that the paper is of less-than-straight-off-the-ream edge quality
 >
 > -Dave
 >
 >-- 
 >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
 >New Kensington, PA


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 16 14:43:25 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 12:43:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
Message-ID: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


just send me your address. Jim Butterfield. Sent or tossed by Monday.


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Jun 16 14:49:22 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:49:22 -0400
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <1339871599.74012.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339871599.74012.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FDCE342.5070605@neurotica.com>

On 06/16/2012 02:33 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> an awful lot of it seems to get done despite youre experience in the
> industry (10 years ago? 20?).

  Sure, but paper handling technology isn't anywhere near as young as
computer technology.  That stuff was well-established easily half a
century before the stuff we're talking about was even thought of.  I
could be wrong, but I have a very tough time believing any great
breakthroughs were made in paper handling in the past decade.

> We had something maybe a Canon, at a
> job 8 years ago, often reliably taking print and even that skinny

  "often reliably"

> fanfold garbage simultaneously. Did it draw 2  pages in periodically,
> short of spending ~a grand, Im sure anything will.

  Yes, that was my point exactly.

> I would think an
> 80-90% percent success rate for a relatively short job (i.e not long
> term professional activity) would be tolerable. You can always
> manually redo those wayfaring missed pages.

  And if you destroy the original in the process?

> This forum has nearly
> nothing to do with anything professional.

  I'd disagree with that.

> But anything, including
> hobbies warrants some patience.

  You said yourself that you don't have time to find a deal on the right
tool for this job.

> And dumping significant cash or
> having people tell you it cant be done otherwise doesnt make sense.

  I'm not telling you it can't be done.  I wished you success, remember?
 I just said it's very likely to be a waste of time using consumer crap,
and I hope it doesn't turn out to be frustrating for you, especially
when proper tools are at hand, and cheap.

               -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Jun 16 14:37:30 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:37:30 +0100 (BST)
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <1339861822.97680.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from
 "Chris Tofu" at Jun 16, 12 08:50:22 am
Message-ID: <m1SfyoR-000J4WC@p850ug1>

> 
> 
> Luck isnt necessary. Ingenuity is.

"Don't believe in miracles, rely on them" :-)

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Jun 16 14:47:57 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:47:57 +0100 (BST)
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <4FDCC7A8.4060103@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 16,
 12 01:51:36 pm
Message-ID: <m1SfyyZ-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 06/16/2012 01:33 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> > No the unit I already returned (unopened) wasnt designed for big
> > batches or even longevity necessarily, but document feeding, the crux
> > of the matter, is no feat. People have and I seem to recall there
> > even being one commercial product that turned a copier into a
> > document scanner. Accurate and reliable document feeders are often
> > left on the side of the road.
> 
>   You haven't had to work on many of them, have you. ;)  I worked on
> paper feed systems (Ziyad feeders for Canon CX engine-based laser
> printers, as well as the printers themselves) for several years when
> those printers were en vogue.

And I can assure you, that having worked on various printers, copiers, 
etc over the years, that the CX engien is one of the bttter ones :-)

Some time back I bought a cheap photocopier, the sort where you put the 
orignail one sheet at a timne on a sliding glass platen. There were 2 
models in the shop. On the cheaper one, you fet the blank paper in one 
shet at a time, when you slid a sheet in, the machine started up. On the 
more expensive one, there was a paper tray for a pile of blank paper, it 
pickup ou one sheet at time when you press thed 'copy' button.

I bougthe the cheaper one. The only advantage of the more expensive model 
was if you wanted to make serveral copies of one original, something I 
rarely need to do. THe disadvantage of it was that it had a paper pickup 
system, which epxperience suggests is going to jam all too often and is 
going to nbeed new rollers from time to time. 

> 
>   That experience left me with the sincere hope that I never have to
> work on another paper-handling device again, as well as the insistence

I've only ever met one printer that can feed in a new roll of paper 
automatixally and get it right more than 10% or the time. And that's the 
HP9866, which works just abotu every time without problems. They got it 
iright in the early 1970s... Of course that thing is built like a brick 
prvy...

> that any printer I own will be built to print all day, every day and
> likely end up being a two-man lift. (which they both are, HP 8100DN and
> 8550DN)
> 
>   Yes, paper feeding is, in fact, a feat.  Yes, it is done all over the
> place, and has been for many decades, but that doesn't make it any less
> a feat, nor does it make it any less failure-prone.  Document feeding in

There are many provblesm. Sheets will stick together. Crumpled corners, 
etc, common on old documents you want to scan, will cause problems. And 
while it might work OK wen new, it will wear out (paper is suprisingly 
abrasive). If you can't get new rollers, or can't make your own 
replacements, you are going to have big problems.

> particular is much harder, because (in comparison to printing) it
> suddenly matters if you pick up two sheets at once, and you can often
> bet that the paper is of less-than-straight-off-the-ream edge quality

-tony


From ian_primus at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 16 15:12:13 2012
From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 13:12:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <4FDCC7A8.4060103@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <1339877533.58778.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

--- On Sat, 6/16/12, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:

> Document feeding in
> particular is much harder, because (in comparison to
> printing) it
> suddenly matters if you pick up two sheets at once, and you
> can often
> bet that the paper is of less-than-straight-off-the-ream
> edge quality

And therein lies the rub. Or rather, the jam and misfeed.

The easiest kind of paper in the world to pick and feed is cheap, generic 20 pound copier paper. The kind you buy by the case with the office supply store's name brand on it. It's rough enough that it's easy to pick, slick enough that it rarely sticks together, and is overall a very, very easy thing for a printer (or document feeder) to pick and feed.

High quality, expensive paper - while it looks nice - is very difficult to pick and feed. Usually it's much thicker, slicker, and heavier. One customer I had was printing lots of mailings on a 4350. The tray with the letterhead in it needed new rollers constantly, since just a little wear would cause the machine to fail to pick the slick, expensive, pre-printed forms. And even the third party replacement rollers, when new, had issues picking this paper. You had to use HP genuine rollers. But, the same tray, loaded with cheap copy paper, never had problems. You could run the rollers until they were slick and shiny and they'd still pick the "Bent Staple Brand Office Paper" with no problems.

When scanning docs, you run into problems with not only the paper stock, but the age and condition of the paper. Manuals that have lived their entire life in a three ring binder will be curly at the edge, and the places where the holes are punched will usually cause the pages to hang up against each other. Magazines with the spines cut off are too slick to auto-feed in most machines. Book paper is an unusual size, and tends to get "fuzzy" at the edges.

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is despite the fact that "picking and feeding paper" is a known and solved problem - "picking and feeding clean new paper to print on" and "picking and feeding old documents to scan" are really two separate problems with two different sets of variables. Yes, they're similar in implementation, but the latter requires more precision and more safeguards against misfeeding than the former, since the way clean new copy paper behaves is very predictable, and the way random 30 year old once-bound-but-now-is-not paper behaves is not.

And, related (yet off the off-topic) anecdote - I once serviced an HP 4250 with a MAMMOTH paper jam in the front of the machine. It was as though somehow the printer had picked and fed 20 sheets at once! To the point where I had to dismantle a fair bit of it to get it all out. Nothing seemed damaged, the rollers were in good condition, and upon reassembly, everything appeared normal, and the printer printed without misfeeding. I ran a long paper path test to test for misfeeds and jams, and could find nothing else wrong. At this point, the printer was low on paper, so I grabbed a fresh ream out of the case next to the printer to refill it before I left. The paper was Hewlett-Packard branded. Like all reams of paper, the stack of 500 sheets comes wrapped in a paper(or heavy plastic) wrapper, which is folded around the stack and glued. Well, it would seem that when this ream, and evidently the ream just before it, was wrapped off-center. The flaps on one
 end were too large, and the flaps on the other end were too short - not long enough to completely cover the end of the paper. Thus, the glue that's supposed to glue the wrapper together around the paper was gluing about 20 sheets of paper together into a essentially a notepad.

I have no idea if the customer contacted HP about this. I suggested that perhaps they should, since, it was HP brand paper, and an HP brand printer, which required a service call due to the glued-together paper getting stuck. But I was sure to explain how to fan BOTH ends of the new ream before putting it in the drawer!

-Ian


From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Sat Jun 16 15:39:34 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:39:34 +0200
Subject: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5ShwqAu3uJ5S1Txw=8TQx-q8PqEaMk0zjyVFxbyn_XJNg@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone have the pinout for the 12-pin power connector on the
Nova-4 or Eclipse S/120 at hand?


From legalize at xmission.com  Sat Jun 16 16:06:36 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:06:36 -0600
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <4FDC10FD.50008@atarimuseum.com>
References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FDBE8AA.2070709@atarimuseum.com> <E1SfjbA-00057z-A5@shell.xmission.com>
 <4FDC10FD.50008@atarimuseum.com>
Message-ID: <E1Sg0Ca-0006dl-1r@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FDC10FD.50008 at atarimuseum.com>,
    "Curt @ Atari Museum" <curt at atarimuseum.com> writes:

>   Just looked at the website for it, downloading and installing it now, 
> every little bit helps :-)

Before this I had been using hugin, which was *waaaay* too much work
and took lots of effort to get a good stitch.

I've been amazed at how well ICE does.  It is also amazingly fast --
one or two seconds, max.  With hugin, the whole process was like 20
minutes because of all the manual matchup of features.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Sat Jun 16 16:09:21 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:09:21 -0600
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <1339856204.53474.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339856204.53474.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1Sg0FF-0006q3-Db@shell.xmission.com>


In article <1339856204.53474.YahooMailClassic at web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
    Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> writes:

> You're going to drive yourself mad. Having done printer and scanner repair
> for years, I can say, that your machine will be way more trouble than it's
> worth. It's NOT intended for scanning huge tomes of paper. It's meant for
> scanning in a dozen sheets every month or so, not hundreds in one night.

This is why I was recommending renting from an office equipment supply
house.  If the stuff breaks, you call them, they come fix it or
replace it with another working unit.  You're not going to need to own
this scanner because your work has an end to it.  You don't even need
to rent it continuously.  Rent it for a couple months and chew on your
big pile of docs, then take a few months off.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Sat Jun 16 16:22:54 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:22:54 -0600
Subject: ebay: 70 Commodore PETs for sale (Boise, ID)
In-Reply-To: <4FDC5400.7020305@fenz.net>
References: <1339836699.80980.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <4FDC5400.7020305@fenz.net>
Message-ID: <E1Sg0SM-0007nf-4V@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FDC5400.7020305 at fenz.net>,
    Mike van Bokhoven <mike at fenz.net> writes:

> Awesome indeed. The seller says 'They were acquired for recycling 
> purposes but we have decided to sell as is to free up space in the 
> warehouse for other inventory.' Surely they mean 'Selling these because 
> the $4300 we think we'll get for them eclipses the recycled materials' 
> value by at least a factor of ten.' And that's a good thing, in my opinion.

I don't think it will sell for nearly anywhere near that price, but
I've been wrong before.

There isn't much recycle value in these because you have to *pay* to
have the monitor recycled.  Once you subtract monitor fees from the
small amount of precious metals that are in the motherboard and
keyboard, there really isn't much left IMO.  The case is steel and you
might get some money from that, but not much.

If you dribbled these out on ebay one by one in order to not make the 
market drop, I'd guess it would take you 5 years or so to sell them
all off.  70 PETs is a *lot* of PETs.  They're big, they're heavy and
expensive to ship.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Jun 16 17:50:31 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (mcguire at neurotica.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 18:50:31 -0400
Subject: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5ShwqAu3uJ5S1Txw=8TQx-q8PqEaMk0zjyVFxbyn_XJNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+0-H5ShwqAu3uJ5S1Txw=8TQx-q8PqEaMk0zjyVFxbyn_XJNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9F59053B-2B52-4E85-A603-4904048EC416@neurotica.com>


On Jun 16, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven <iamcamiel at gmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone have the pinout for the 12-pin power connector on the
> Nova-4 or Eclipse S/120 at hand?

  I don't, but do I have a complete S/280 system at my building.  I know it's physically similar to the S/120, and it's from the same era...I'd be happy to dig into it when I get back there tomorrow and see what I can figure out.

  I also have some docs and possibly some schematics but I've not yet been able to catalog it all.

  As you're discovering, there's very little information floating around out there about these machines. :-( Once I figure out what I have, I will find a way to make it available.

               -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA




From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com  Sat Jun 16 18:06:27 2012
From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 18:06:27 -0500
Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair?
Message-ID: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com>

I have an old project laying around that I just spent another two hours 
on ..

It is an 1993 external parallel port attached CD-ROM.  A company called 
"Storage Devices Inc" made it, and IBM resold it.  The model number is 
SCD-683.  There are some traces of it if you search the web, but not 
much interesting.  I have the drivers so that is not a problem.

The CD-ROM is a 1x SCSI unit that uses a caddy.  There is a parallel to 
SCSI bridge board in the enclosure based on the NCR 53C80 chipset, which 
was well known back then. The CD-ROM does show up and talk when used on 
an XT running PC DOS 3.3; it responds to commands like eject and it lets 
me see its error counts using a utility program.

The problem is that it refuses to read any media that I give it. The 
drive is very clean - I removed the top and had a look inside the 
mechanism to be certain. It is a caddy loading model so I can't tell for 
sure that the head has clear access but everything seems to be operating 
freely. I'm using old pressed aluminum discs (OS/2 Warp) which should be 
fine in any CD-ROM device. I have tried cleaning the heads with a 
special CD that has the magic fibers on it, but nothing is helping.  (I 
even reached in gently with a Q-tip and isopropyl alcohol, but that did 
not change anything.)

I'd like to see this thing run - it has a carry handle on the side! 
Unless I come up with another idea to try the only way that is going to 
happen is if I swap the drive out. The original drive is an IBM 
CDRM00101 and the driver is looking for the ID string. So a drive swap 
with a different SCSI drive will probably require patching the device 
driver.

So, any ideas on what I can do to clean the head further? (It might just 
be hopelessly out of alignment - I don't know the history of the drive.)


Mike



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Sat Jun 16 18:31:55 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:31:55 -0300
Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair?
References: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com>
Message-ID: <060b01cd4c18$6bd91f90$6400a8c0@tababook>


    Michael, CD-ROM reading heads isn't so hard to find. Why you don't take 
a good photo of the CD optics so we can find something compatible?

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael B. Brutman" <mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com>
To: "CCTalk_list" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 8:06 PM
Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair?


>I have an old project laying around that I just spent another two hours on 
>..
>
> It is an 1993 external parallel port attached CD-ROM.  A company called 
> "Storage Devices Inc" made it, and IBM resold it.  The model number is 
> SCD-683.  There are some traces of it if you search the web, but not much 
> interesting.  I have the drivers so that is not a problem.
>
> The CD-ROM is a 1x SCSI unit that uses a caddy.  There is a parallel to 
> SCSI bridge board in the enclosure based on the NCR 53C80 chipset, which 
> was well known back then. The CD-ROM does show up and talk when used on an 
> XT running PC DOS 3.3; it responds to commands like eject and it lets me 
> see its error counts using a utility program.
>
> The problem is that it refuses to read any media that I give it. The drive 
> is very clean - I removed the top and had a look inside the mechanism to 
> be certain. It is a caddy loading model so I can't tell for sure that the 
> head has clear access but everything seems to be operating freely. I'm 
> using old pressed aluminum discs (OS/2 Warp) which should be fine in any 
> CD-ROM device. I have tried cleaning the heads with a special CD that has 
> the magic fibers on it, but nothing is helping.  (I even reached in gently 
> with a Q-tip and isopropyl alcohol, but that did not change anything.)
>
> I'd like to see this thing run - it has a carry handle on the side! Unless 
> I come up with another idea to try the only way that is going to happen is 
> if I swap the drive out. The original drive is an IBM CDRM00101 and the 
> driver is looking for the ID string. So a drive swap with a different SCSI 
> drive will probably require patching the device driver.
>
> So, any ideas on what I can do to clean the head further? (It might just 
> be hopelessly out of alignment - I don't know the history of the drive.)
>
>
> Mike
> 



From mike at fenz.net  Sat Jun 16 18:46:58 2012
From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 11:46:58 +1200
Subject: ebay: 70 Commodore PETs for sale (Boise, ID)
In-Reply-To: <4FDC6F45.9040504@neurotica.com>
References: <1339836699.80980.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <4FDC5400.7020305@fenz.net> <4FDC6F45.9040504@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4FDD1AF2.7080803@fenz.net>

True, that was pretty much my point - these things would be worth much 
more as they are than as scrap, and it's a good thing for computing 
history. I was just surprised that the seller would even try to suggest 
that it's only for space reasons that the machines are being sold 
complete, I wasn't being critical of anything he was doing. Definitely 
though, there'd be a lot of work involved in selling each machine 
individually. If I wanted to sell these without too much effort, I'd 
probably go through them all and identify any runners, give them a clean 
and list them individually. Non-runners could be grouped by type and 
sold as lots. Both his way and mine are better than them being shredded 
and sold for next to nothing. No-one wins that way.

Mike


On 16/06/2012 11:34 p.m., Dave McGuire wrote:
>    I dunno Mike, I don't think I can fault this guy for this. (and I can
> usually fault someone for ANYTHING)  I think $61.00/ea is quite good
> price for a Pet, in any condition.
>
>    If I had the spare cash lying around, I'd buy the lot, perform any
> necessary repairs, and dole them out to the collector community at
> $100/ea, and still end up giving people good deals.
>
>                 -Dave
>
> On 06/16/2012 05:38 AM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote:
>> Awesome indeed. The seller says 'They were acquired for recycling
>> purposes but we have decided to sell as is to free up space in the
>> warehouse for other inventory.' Surely they mean 'Selling these because
>> the $4300 we think we'll get for them eclipses the recycled materials'
>> value by at least a factor of ten.' And that's a good thing, in my opinion.
>>
>> On 16/06/2012 8:51 p.m., steven stengel wrote:
>>> Not my auction, but awesome!
>>>
>>> 330748180850
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>



From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com  Sat Jun 16 18:49:23 2012
From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 18:49:23 -0500
Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair?
In-Reply-To: <060b01cd4c18$6bd91f90$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com>
 <060b01cd4c18$6bd91f90$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <4FDD1B83.40500@brutman.com>

On 6/16/2012 6:31 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>
> Michael, CD-ROM reading heads isn't so hard to find. Why you don't take
> a good photo of the CD optics so we can find something compatible?
>

I've never heard of that being done - is it really feasible to find a 
replacement for a 15+ year old CD-ROM head assembly?

(I'm scared to touch it for fear of knocking it out of alignment, never 
mind trying to find a drop in replacement and doing surgery.)


Mike



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 16 22:13:28 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:13:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: free + shippage - Sanyo MBC-1000, Tek 5440
Message-ID: <1339902808.10701.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


Neither work LOL. But I have the utmost faith in your technological skill. MUST respond by Sunday evening.


From cube1 at charter.net  Sat Jun 16 23:07:28 2012
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 23:07:28 -0500
Subject: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector
In-Reply-To: <9F59053B-2B52-4E85-A603-4904048EC416@neurotica.com>
References: <CA+0-H5ShwqAu3uJ5S1Txw=8TQx-q8PqEaMk0zjyVFxbyn_XJNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9F59053B-2B52-4E85-A603-4904048EC416@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4FDD5800.905@charter.net>

I happen have one.  (An S/140 would have the same cable - it uses the 
exact same power supply).  (I also looked thru my drawings, and none 
seem to give the pinout for this cable).

Orientation:  F = pin with a flat,  R = Round pin.
Looking at the connector on the cable (i.e., looking into the pin end of 
the AC cable), we have

1  2  3
4  5  6
7  8  9
10 11 12

F  R  F
R  R  R
R  R  R
R  F  R

The numbering shows on the connector on the Nova 4, so you can use the 
number on the Nova 4's connector to orient yourself and confirm.

For 110V AC (which is what I have)

Pin 1 connects to Pin 11 in the power cable.
Pin 2 connects to Pin 12 in the power cable.
Pin 4 connects to Pin 8 in the power cable.
Pin 5 connects to Pin 6 in the power cable.
Pin 7 connects to Pin 10 in the power cable.

Ground is pin 5 (and therefore pin 6 as well)
Hot is pin 3.
Neutral is pin 9.

On a standard 3 prong power cord, hot goes into the SMALLER (right side) 
of the two blade slots (in the US), and as you
look at the plug from the  pin end, is on the LEFT.

VERIFY your Nova 4 and your pinouts by checking that pins 5 and 6 on 
your chassis connector connect to the chassis itself, with an ohmeter, 
and check for resistance between pings 3 and 9.

Jay

On 6/16/2012 5:50 PM, mcguire at neurotica.com wrote:
> On Jun 16, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven<iamcamiel at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> Does anyone have the pinout for the 12-pin power connector on the
>> Nova-4 or Eclipse S/120 at hand?
>    I don't, but do I have a complete S/280 system at my building.  I know it's physically similar to the S/120, and it's from the same era...I'd be happy to dig into it when I get back there tomorrow and see what I can figure out.
>
>    I also have some docs and possibly some schematics but I've not yet been able to catalog it all.
>
>    As you're discovering, there's very little information floating around out there about these machines. :-( Once I figure out what I have, I will find a way to make it available.
>
>                 -Dave
>


From cube1 at charter.net  Sat Jun 16 23:30:43 2012
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 23:30:43 -0500
Subject: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector
In-Reply-To: <4FDD5800.905@charter.net>
References: <CA+0-H5ShwqAu3uJ5S1Txw=8TQx-q8PqEaMk0zjyVFxbyn_XJNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9F59053B-2B52-4E85-A603-4904048EC416@neurotica.com>
 <4FDD5800.905@charter.net>
Message-ID: <4FDD5D73.8030301@charter.net>

Update. I did just find some DG Doc, in the Nova 4 16 Slot Illustrated 
Parts Breakdown (016-000940-00) that I have.

Curiously, for 120v, they show Hot going to Pin *** 4 ***, but the plug 
otherwise wired exactly as I described in my previous message.  But, I 
think that is in error, and one should wire hot to pin ***3 *** for 120V.

For 240V they show Hot going to pin 3, neutral to 9, and ground to 5 
(and 6).  For 240V the only interconnects they show are from 1 to 11 and 
from 4 to 7 (as opposed to 4 to 8 for 120V).  Again, I think that hot 
pin 3 is in error, and (probably) for 240V, one should wire hot to pin 4 
BUT I HAVE NO WAY TO VERIFY THIS.

HOWEVER, I did go back and re-verify what I wrote earlier on both my 
Nova/4 and (now) my S/140 as well and both have pin 3 as HOT.  All 120V 
of it.

Other than that, the interconnections I described below match the doc.  
The only variance is between hot for 120v (I say pin 3, they say 4) and 
hot for 240v (they say pin 3).

Go figure.  (Unfortunately, I don't have power supply drawings that I 
can use to arbitrate).

Jay



On 6/16/2012 11:07 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
> I happen have one.  (An S/140 would have the same cable - it uses the 
> exact same power supply).  (I also looked thru my drawings, and none 
> seem to give the pinout for this cable).
>
> Orientation:  F = pin with a flat,  R = Round pin.
> Looking at the connector on the cable (i.e., looking into the pin end 
> of the AC cable), we have
>
> 1  2  3
> 4  5  6
> 7  8  9
> 10 11 12
>
> F  R  F
> R  R  R
> R  R  R
> R  F  R
>
> The numbering shows on the connector on the Nova 4, so you can use the 
> number on the Nova 4's connector to orient yourself and confirm.
>
> For 110V AC (which is what I have)
>
> Pin 1 connects to Pin 11 in the power cable.
> Pin 2 connects to Pin 12 in the power cable.
> Pin 4 connects to Pin 8 in the power cable.
> Pin 5 connects to Pin 6 in the power cable.
> Pin 7 connects to Pin 10 in the power cable.
>
> Ground is pin 5 (and therefore pin 6 as well)
> Hot is pin 3.
> Neutral is pin 9.
>
> On a standard 3 prong power cord, hot goes into the SMALLER (right 
> side) of the two blade slots (in the US), and as you
> look at the plug from the  pin end, is on the LEFT.
>
> VERIFY your Nova 4 and your pinouts by checking that pins 5 and 6 on 
> your chassis connector connect to the chassis itself, with an ohmeter, 
> and check for resistance between pings 3 and 9.
>
> Jay
>
> On 6/16/2012 5:50 PM, mcguire at neurotica.com wrote:
>> On Jun 16, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Camiel 
>> Vanderhoeven<iamcamiel at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> Does anyone have the pinout for the 12-pin power connector on the
>>> Nova-4 or Eclipse S/120 at hand?
>>    I don't, but do I have a complete S/280 system at my building.  I 
>> know it's physically similar to the S/120, and it's from the same 
>> era...I'd be happy to dig into it when I get back there tomorrow and 
>> see what I can figure out.
>>
>>    I also have some docs and possibly some schematics but I've not 
>> yet been able to catalog it all.
>>
>>    As you're discovering, there's very little information floating 
>> around out there about these machines. :-( Once I figure out what I 
>> have, I will find a way to make it available.
>>
>>                 -Dave
>>
>


From eric at brouhaha.com  Sun Jun 17 00:13:05 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 22:13:05 -0700
Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair?
In-Reply-To: <4FDD1B83.40500@brutman.com>
References: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com>
 <060b01cd4c18$6bd91f90$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FDD1B83.40500@brutman.com>
Message-ID: <4FDD6761.3090707@brouhaha.com>

Michael B. Brutman wrote:
>
> (I'm scared to touch it for fear of knocking it out of alignment, 
> never mind trying to find a drop in replacement and doing surgery.)

There isn't much in the way of critical alignment.  Track following and 
focus both use closed-loop servo to the disc.

Anyhow, it's already broken. You're not going to make it worse.



From nico at farumdata.dk  Sun Jun 17 05:14:18 2012
From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:14:18 +0200
Subject: Second P800 haul and Nova 4
References: <CA+0-H5S19jtSKz0HhoecrYQseK+4UMAzXCwMkUD8vJDVv75qhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E469B39F6E0F4CB58F7ADFFD1798EA61@udvikling>

> - "Very Special / Utilities R1.0 83-06-01 / P5011 / SYS / User: PRK300
> / ASG 1E0,DK,PRECDC"

This sounds like something for the P5000 series, which was a text processor. 
The ones I've seen, P5000 and P5002, were relabelled systems from Micon(?) 
in Canada, but I seem to remember that later versions used CP/M
/Nico 


--
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter.
SPAMfighter has removed 388 of my spam emails to date.
Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

Do you have a slow PC? Try Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen




From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Sun Jun 17 06:11:00 2012
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:11:00 +0100
Subject: Enter now for the Summer 2012 Retrochallenge
Message-ID: <9A03D756-9B5A-4910-BB6A-23BA7442639A@wickensonline.co.uk>

Announcing the Retrochallenge 2012 Summer Challenge

As usual the competition is open to all, so come and join us for a legitimized month of playing, hacking and blogging with/about your retrogear.

For those of you new to retrochallenge the philosophy is:

About RetroChallenge

In a nutshell, the RetroChallenge is a loosely disorganised gathering of RetroComputing enthusiasts who collectively do stuff with old computers for a month.

The event is very much open to interpretation... individuals set there own challenges, which can range from programming to multimedia work; hardware restoration to exploring legacy networking... or just plain dicking around. It really doesn't matter what you do, just so long as you do it.

While the RetroChallenge has its competitive side, it's not really a contest... it's more like global thermonuclear war ? everyone can play, but nobody really wins.

Come on... give it a go!

The summer retrochallenge runs for the month of July.

Register using the ENTER link at http://retrochallenge.org the Official Competition page


From randall.kindig at gmail.com  Sat Jun 16 17:41:49 2012
From: randall.kindig at gmail.com (Randy Kindig)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 18:41:49 -0400
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>

Randall Kindig
2505 S 500 W
Lebanon, IN 46052

Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:43 PM, Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> just send me your address. Jim Butterfield. Sent or tossed by Monday.
> 


From djg at pdp8online.com  Sat Jun 16 20:50:25 2012
From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 21:50:25 -0400
Subject: DEC stuff for sale
Message-ID: <201206170150.q5H1oP4U021789@hugin2.pdp8online.com>

Email decstuff at pdp8online.com to contact the seller. I was contacted
by someone looking to sell some DEC stuff. Looks like he's not trying to get
big $ for it so I'm passing it on.  Wisconsin is too far for me. 

> I also have some DEC equipment from the 11-03, 11-23 and one small VAX
> system. I have 2  LA120 printers, 2 LN03's laser printers, several H960
> cabinets, a couple of CDC 9762 67 Meg hard drives, and various
> Monitors and Interface boards. Are you or do you know of anyone interested
> in this equipment?
> I would like to move the equipment. One thought has been to scrap it;
> another to sell it. If someone has an interest, I would like them to get the
> equipment. Some of this equipment doesn't exist anymore. I would prefer to
> sell it but am very reasonable. 
> The equipment is in Wisconsin and I would prefer that it would be picked up.
> I am not in a position to do any packing or shipping.
> The 11/73 system runs rt-11 with TSX. The Vax runs VMS. 


From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 17 04:00:11 2012
From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:00:11 +1200
Subject: Load Testing PDP11 Power Supplies
Message-ID: <CADeD5WEE5ON7b2L+-reFtnAebJZCCa3OYiCSxu406Ad9BjZ=bA@mail.gmail.com>

I am making progress testing the power supply for my 11/04 (BA11-K chassis)
and so far have worked through the power control box, transformer, fans and
the 15VDC regulator/Power Line monitor but have one question for the
group....

I am seeing in tolerance output voltages from the 15VDC regulator but I
haven't loaded tested it.  Is this something I should do or if the unloaded
outputs are within tolerance then it is safe to use (once the other
regulators are done)?

No real technical info but a description of progress so far on
http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog for those interested in a few pictures.

I am about the start on the H744 5VDC regulators.

Regards

Andrew


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Jun 17 08:39:13 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 14:39:13 +0100
Subject: Load Testing PDP11 Power Supplies
In-Reply-To: <CADeD5WEE5ON7b2L+-reFtnAebJZCCa3OYiCSxu406Ad9BjZ=bA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADeD5WEE5ON7b2L+-reFtnAebJZCCa3OYiCSxu406Ad9BjZ=bA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011001cd4c8e$97231c20$c5695460$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Quinn
> Sent: 17 June 2012 10:00
> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Load Testing PDP11 Power Supplies
> 
> I am making progress testing the power supply for my 11/04 (BA11-K
> chassis) and so far have worked through the power control box,
transformer,
> fans and the 15VDC regulator/Power Line monitor but have one question for
> the group....
> 
> I am seeing in tolerance output voltages from the 15VDC regulator but I
> haven't loaded tested it.  Is this something I should do or if the
unloaded
> outputs are within tolerance then it is safe to use (once the other
regulators
> are done)?
> 
> No real technical info but a description of progress so far on
> http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog for those interested in a few pictures.
> 
> I am about the start on the H744 5VDC regulators.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Andrew

The suggestion I have had is to use 12V car/motorcycle bulbs to provide some
load.

Regards

Rob



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Sun Jun 17 08:47:58 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:47:58 -0300
Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair?
References: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com>
 <060b01cd4c18$6bd91f90$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FDD1B83.40500@brutman.com>
Message-ID: <08ca01cd4c8f$f604b3b0$6400a8c0@tababook>

> I've never heard of that being done - is it really feasible to find a 
> replacement for a 15+ year old CD-ROM head assembly?

    15 years is "new" talking about CD-ROMs. I replace heads sometimes 
older...

> (I'm scared to touch it for fear of knocking it out of alignment, never 
> mind trying to find a drop in replacement and doing surgery.)

    It is already broken, isn't it? :o) 



From cctech at vax-11.org  Sun Jun 17 08:54:18 2012
From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 07:54:18 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair?
In-Reply-To: <4FDD1B83.40500@brutman.com>
References: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com>
 <060b01cd4c18$6bd91f90$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FDD1B83.40500@brutman.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206170752390.5681@daffy.vax-11.org>


Typical failure mechanism for CDROM (and all optical drives) is the 
gradual degradation of the LED. If you look closely at the optical head, 
you might find a potentiometer that you can tweak to increase the LED 
output. Be aware that this will hasten the failure of the LED.

Clint

On Sat, 16 Jun 2012, Michael B. Brutman wrote:

> On 6/16/2012 6:31 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>> 
>> Michael, CD-ROM reading heads isn't so hard to find. Why you don't take
>> a good photo of the CD optics so we can find something compatible?
>> 
>
> I've never heard of that being done - is it really feasible to find a 
> replacement for a 15+ year old CD-ROM head assembly?
>
> (I'm scared to touch it for fear of knocking it out of alignment, never mind 
> trying to find a drop in replacement and doing surgery.)
>
>
> Mike
>


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sun Jun 17 09:47:56 2012
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:47:56 -0400
Subject: VAX11/750 Diagnostic Tape Set - on ebay
Message-ID: <4FDDEE1C.9060103@telegraphics.com.au>

DEC VAX11/750 Diagnostic Tape Set http://r.ebay.com/zDS4ws

I own an (hitherto unrestored) VAX-11/750 and if someone with a working 
TU58 can image these tapes, I might be persuaded to bid on these.

--Toby


From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Sun Jun 17 09:58:19 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 16:58:19 +0200
Subject: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power
 connector)
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5QaEwXeX0ksPdKOafc2Xzj_yabtb7GTEoQ_heR5piiiJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 6:30 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> Update. I did just find some DG Doc, in the Nova 4 16 Slot Illustrated Parts
> Breakdown (016-000940-00) that I have.
>
> Curiously, for 120v, they show Hot going to Pin *** 4 ***, but the plug
> otherwise wired exactly as I described in my previous message. ?But, I think
> that is in error, and one should wire hot to pin ***3 *** for 120V.
>
> For 240V they show Hot going to pin 3, neutral to 9, and ground to 5 (and
> 6). ?For 240V the only interconnects they show are from 1 to 11 and from 4
> to 7 (as opposed to 4 to 8 for 120V). ?Again, I think that hot pin 3 is in
> error, and (probably) for 240V, one should wire hot to pin 4 BUT I HAVE NO
> WAY TO VERIFY THIS.
>
> HOWEVER, I did go back and re-verify what I wrote earlier on both my Nova/4
> and (now) my S/140 as well and both have pin 3 as HOT. ?All 120V of it.
>
> Other than that, the interconnections I described below match the doc. ?The
> only variance is between hot for 120v (I say pin 3, they say 4) and hot for
> 240v (they say pin 3).
>
> Go figure. ?(Unfortunately, I don't have power supply drawings that I can
> use to arbitrate).

Thanks Jay,

Using this, I was able to get the power supply going. All voltages
check out OK, so after some careful examination I've plugged in the
CPU board. The expected output on the console port is the "O" from
"OK"; the K isn't printed because there's no memory.

Powered it on, and after some twiddling with the console cable pinout
(weird one) yes, there's the "O".

Installed the memory board, powered it on again, and alas, still "O"
rather than "OK". The Field Engineer's Reference says that that means
a memory failure.

Of course, the memory board could be faulty, but it could also be a
matter of incorrect jumper settings on the memory board. I haven't
been able to find a description of these yet.

The board says "DGC BBU MEMORY", and contains 8 x 16 AM9016DPC ic's
(4116 equivalent). That makes it 128 16-bit kilowords of memory (no
parity or ECC, although there are 5 empty spots per row).

There are 6 jumper positions labeled 16,17,18,19,0 and 1; each can
have a jumper in the 0 or in the 1 position. My board has a jumper in
the "0" position for jumpers 16, 17 and 18. No jumpers in the other
three positions:

  o  o  o  o  o  o
1
  o  o  o  o  o  o
0 |  |  |
  o  o  o  o  o  o
  16 17 18 19 0  1

Is anyone familiar with these?

Camiel



From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Sun Jun 17 10:02:00 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:02:00 +0200
Subject: Fwd: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120
 power connector)
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5QaEwXeX0ksPdKOafc2Xzj_yabtb7GTEoQ_heR5piiiJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+0-H5QaEwXeX0ksPdKOafc2Xzj_yabtb7GTEoQ_heR5piiiJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5R+D1ac3rmtPN8tav46AzLLNfX7k93k1FwmTJ3Lq41Fpw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 6:30 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> Update. I did just find some DG Doc, in the Nova 4 16 Slot Illustrated Parts
> Breakdown (016-000940-00) that I have.
>
> Curiously, for 120v, they show Hot going to Pin *** 4 ***, but the plug
> otherwise wired exactly as I described in my previous message. ?But, I think
> that is in error, and one should wire hot to pin ***3 *** for 120V.
>
> For 240V they show Hot going to pin 3, neutral to 9, and ground to 5 (and
> 6). ?For 240V the only interconnects they show are from 1 to 11 and from 4
> to 7 (as opposed to 4 to 8 for 120V). ?Again, I think that hot pin 3 is in
> error, and (probably) for 240V, one should wire hot to pin 4 BUT I HAVE NO
> WAY TO VERIFY THIS.
>
> HOWEVER, I did go back and re-verify what I wrote earlier on both my Nova/4
> and (now) my S/140 as well and both have pin 3 as HOT. ?All 120V of it.
>
> Other than that, the interconnections I described below match the doc. ?The
> only variance is between hot for 120v (I say pin 3, they say 4) and hot for
> 240v (they say pin 3).
>
> Go figure. ?(Unfortunately, I don't have power supply drawings that I can
> use to arbitrate).

Thanks Jay,

Using this, I was able to get the power supply going. All voltages
check out OK, so after some careful examination I've plugged in the
CPU board. The expected output on the console port is the "O" from
"OK"; the K isn't printed because there's no memory.

Powered it on, and after some twiddling with the console cable pinout
(weird one) yes, there's the "O".

Installed the memory board, powered it on again, and alas, still "O"
rather than "OK". The Field Engineer's Reference says that that means
a memory failure.

Of course, the memory board could be faulty, but it could also be a
matter of incorrect jumper settings on the memory board. I haven't
been able to find a description of these yet.

The board says "DGC BBU MEMORY", and contains 8 x 16 AM9016DPC ic's
(4116 equivalent). That makes it 128 16-bit kilowords of memory (no
parity or ECC, although there are 5 empty spots per row).

There are 6 jumper positions labeled 16,17,18,19,0 and 1; each can
have a jumper in the 0 or in the 1 position. My board has a jumper in
the "0" position for jumpers 16, 17 and 18. No jumpers in the other
three positions:

?o ?o ?o ?o ?o ?o
1
?o ?o ?o ?o ?o ?o
0 | ?| ?|
?o ?o ?o ?o ?o ?o
?16 17 18 19 0 ?1

Is anyone familiar with these?

Camiel



From oe5ewl at gmail.com  Sun Jun 17 13:16:05 2012
From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 20:16:05 +0200
Subject: Free DEC Manuals
Message-ID: <CANJYbi_AjaWU+vwiCRSZzNWRtipxPccwBTxfR05K1AAcyRXi3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Got some Original DEC Manuals in reasonable condition.

As I do not need them at the moment any interested can have them. These
Manuals have seen little use and slight yellowing on the covers. Inside
they're pretty unused and clean.

EK-PC380-OM-001 Professional 380 Owner's Manual
EK-T25QA-IN-001 M7605 Q-BUS KIT Installation Guide
EK-DZQ11-UG-001 DZQ11 Asynchronous Multiplexer User's Guide
EK-T25TD-IN-001 TK25 Tape Drive Installation Guide
EK-0TK25-UG-001 TK 25 Tape Drive Subsystem User Guide

If you want them all (or a single one), let me know your postal adress and
I'll let them fly out. I you want to give me something for them, it'd be
appreciated. But not needed.

Regards,
 Wolfgang
--
Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
Operating System Collector
Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
Homepage: www.eichberger.org

Ahnenforschung / Genealogy: A(E)ichberger, B(P)ruckmayr Raum
Leonding/Alkoven/Eferding; Schmeisser Raum Attergau


From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Jun 17 13:55:30 2012
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 13:55:30 -0500
Subject: VAX11/750 Diagnostic Tape Set - on ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FDDEE1C.9060103@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4FDDEE1C.9060103@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4FDE2822.3070800@charter.net>

I have done some TU58 images in  the past, so if my drives still work, I 
could record images.    I also have versions (and sometimes the exact 
same version) of almost all of these already images, but not the same 
version.  See below.    I also seem to recall someone having a lot of 
this online, but don't remember where (I thought it might be bitsavers, 
but I see that they are not there).

BE-S201O-DE TU58#8 VAX 11 INSTR	   			(I have S201Q Rev 22)
BE-S199U-DE TU58#6 VAX 11750 DIAG SUPER    (I have BE-FI21B-ME Rev 25)
BE-S402S-AE TU58#17 VAX 11750 RD DIAG		(I have exactly this one)
BE-T285D-DE TU58#43 VAX BUS TEST DIAG
BE-S030M-DE TH58#2 VAX 11750 MICRO MIC		(I have exactly this one, rev 22)
BE-T538E-ME TU58#3 VAX 11750 MICRO PATCH	(I have exactly this one)
BE-S198N-DE TU58#5 VAX750 CACHETB/MEM/EXR    (I have S198O Rev 25)
BE-S200I-DE TU58#7 VAX 11 HARDCORE INSTR    (I have exactly this rev.)
BE-S202R-DE TU58#9 CR/DISK USER MODE		*[I do NOT have this one]*
BE-S405G-DE TU58#20 VAX SYS EXR/BUS INIT		(I have exactly this one)
BE-S029O-DE TU58#1 11750 MICRO DPM  		(I have S029D Rev 22 - so mine is apparently older than this one)
BE-T142E-DE TU58#33 VAX BUS DIAGNOSTICS	(I have T142F Rev 22)
BE-T142E-DE TU58#33 VAX BUS DIAGNOSTICS (2nd copy)
BE-T204F-ME TU58#41 VAX 11/750 CONSOLE		(I have T204J Rev 22, T204F Rev ??, T204M Rev 25)
BE-S200I-DE TU58#7 VAX 11 HARDCORE INSTR (2nd copy)
BE-S199U-DE TU58#6 VAX 11750 DIAG SUPER (2nd copy)
BE-T300F-DE TU58#44 VAX UDA50 SUBSYSTEMS	(I have exactly this one)
BE-T536C-DE TU58#51 VAX AUTOSIZER DIAG		(I have T536J  Rev 25)
BE-T538D-ME TU58#3 VAX 11750 MICRO PATCH
BE-S198N-DE TU58#5 VAX750 CACHETB/MEM/EXR (2nd copy)
BE-T285D-DE TU58#43 VAX BUS TEST DIAG			(I have T285F  Rev 22)
BE-S405G-DE TU58#20 VAX SYS EXR/BUS INIT (2nd copy)
BE-S201N-DE TU58#8 VAX 11 INSTR
BE-S202Q-DE TU58#9 CR/DISK USER MODE
BE-T537B-DE TU58#52 VAX TU80 DIAGNOSTIC			(I have exactly this one)
BE-Z389A-BE DECDX/VMS 11/750 TU58 DDX2		[I do nopt have these last four]
BE-AC48A-BE DECSPELL V1.0 LNGVCB 4/4 TU58
BE-X734A-BE DECDX/VMS 11/750 TU58 DDX1
BE-BB70A-BE DECDX/VMS 11/750 TU58 DDX3

I also have

BE-T909A-ME  KU750-YG G&H UCODE & LOADER
BE-T172H-DE Rev 22 #38 VAX DMF32 DIAG

On 6/17/2012 9:47 AM, Toby Thain wrote:
> DEC VAX11/750 Diagnostic Tape Set http://r.ebay.com/zDS4ws
>
> I own an (hitherto unrestored) VAX-11/750 and if someone with a 
> working TU58 can image these tapes, I might be persuaded to bid on these.
>
> --Toby
>


From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Jun 17 14:23:23 2012
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 14:23:23 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse
 S/120 power connector)
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5R+D1ac3rmtPN8tav46AzLLNfX7k93k1FwmTJ3Lq41Fpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+0-H5QaEwXeX0ksPdKOafc2Xzj_yabtb7GTEoQ_heR5piiiJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+0-H5R+D1ac3rmtPN8tav46AzLLNfX7k93k1FwmTJ3Lq41Fpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDE2EAB.5070909@charter.net>

I have an illustration in my DG "Installation and Packaging for Data 
General Products" 014-000605-02  - it is 1.5 inches thick 14 7/8 x 11, 
covering Nova 2 thru 4, Eclipse S/100 thru MV/1800, MP/100, MP/200 and 
various peripherals - really handy for jumper settings and the like.) 
that appears to match up (3 rows of 6 jumper positions each), but with 
different labelling.  I also have this very board in my Nova 4 -- but 
apparently with less memory than you have.

The illustration is thus in my book:

o      o      o      o      o      o
w     w      w     w     w      w
  2     4      6     8     10     12
o      o      o      o      o      o
w      w     w     w     w     w
1      3      5      7      9      13
o      o      o      o      o      o

According to this chart, then, you have   w1, w3 and w5 inserted.

The book says that w1, w3 and w5 are ALWAYS inserted and that w2, w4 and 
w6 are NEVER inserted.  This is consistent with what you have and with 
what I have in my machine.

The board can be populated as 32KB, 64KB, 128KB and 256KB.

For a 256KB board, no other jumpers are inserted.
For a 128KB board, W7 is inserted.
For a 64KB board, W7 and W9 are inserted.
For a 32KB board, W7, W9 and W11 are inserted.

If yours is indeed 256KB (128K words) then no other jumpers should be 
present, and your board is jumpered as one would expect according to the 
doc.

*My* board has every other row present, and so is a 128KB board.  I thus 
have 4 rows out of the total of 8 populated, with 15 chips per populated 
row (and 5 empty spots in each of the populated rows).   w7 is inserted, 
as one would expect from the doc.  And, on my board the labels are the 
same ones you are seeing:  16, 17, 18, 19, 0, 1  (So I have 16, 17, 18 
and 19 inserted in the "0" row -- the same as w1, w3, w5 and w7, above).

Jay

On 6/17/2012 10:02 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 6:30 AM, Jay Jaeger<cube1 at charter.net>  wrote:
>> Update. I did just find some DG Doc, in the Nova 4 16 Slot Illustrated Parts
>> Breakdown (016-000940-00) that I have.
>>
>> Curiously, for 120v, they show Hot going to Pin *** 4 ***, but the plug
>> otherwise wired exactly as I described in my previous message.  But, I think
>> that is in error, and one should wire hot to pin ***3 *** for 120V.
>>
>> For 240V they show Hot going to pin 3, neutral to 9, and ground to 5 (and
>> 6).  For 240V the only interconnects they show are from 1 to 11 and from 4
>> to 7 (as opposed to 4 to 8 for 120V).  Again, I think that hot pin 3 is in
>> error, and (probably) for 240V, one should wire hot to pin 4 BUT I HAVE NO
>> WAY TO VERIFY THIS.
>>
>> HOWEVER, I did go back and re-verify what I wrote earlier on both my Nova/4
>> and (now) my S/140 as well and both have pin 3 as HOT.  All 120V of it.
>>
>> Other than that, the interconnections I described below match the doc.  The
>> only variance is between hot for 120v (I say pin 3, they say 4) and hot for
>> 240v (they say pin 3).
>>
>> Go figure.  (Unfortunately, I don't have power supply drawings that I can
>> use to arbitrate).
> Thanks Jay,
>
> Using this, I was able to get the power supply going. All voltages
> check out OK, so after some careful examination I've plugged in the
> CPU board. The expected output on the console port is the "O" from
> "OK"; the K isn't printed because there's no memory.
>
> Powered it on, and after some twiddling with the console cable pinout
> (weird one) yes, there's the "O".
>
> Installed the memory board, powered it on again, and alas, still "O"
> rather than "OK". The Field Engineer's Reference says that that means
> a memory failure.
>
> Of course, the memory board could be faulty, but it could also be a
> matter of incorrect jumper settings on the memory board. I haven't
> been able to find a description of these yet.
>
> The board says "DGC BBU MEMORY", and contains 8 x 16 AM9016DPC ic's
> (4116 equivalent). That makes it 128 16-bit kilowords of memory (no
> parity or ECC, although there are 5 empty spots per row).
>
> There are 6 jumper positions labeled 16,17,18,19,0 and 1; each can
> have a jumper in the 0 or in the 1 position. My board has a jumper in
> the "0" position for jumpers 16, 17 and 18. No jumpers in the other
> three positions:
>
>   o  o  o  o  o  o
> 1
>   o  o  o  o  o  o
> 0 |  |  |
>   o  o  o  o  o  o
>   16 17 18 19 0  1
>
> Is anyone familiar with these?
>
> Camiel
>
>


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Jun 17 15:34:04 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:34:04 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair?
In-Reply-To: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Jun
 16, 12 06:06:27 pm
Message-ID: <m1SgMAj-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> 
> I have an old project laying around that I just spent another two hours 
> on ..
> 
> It is an 1993 external parallel port attached CD-ROM.  A company called 
> "Storage Devices Inc" made it, and IBM resold it.  The model number is 
> SCD-683.  There are some traces of it if you search the web, but not 
> much interesting.  I have the drivers so that is not a problem.
> 
> The CD-ROM is a 1x SCSI unit that uses a caddy.  There is a parallel to 
> SCSI bridge board in the enclosure based on the NCR 53C80 chipset, which 
> was well known back then. The CD-ROM does show up and talk when used on 
> an XT running PC DOS 3.3; it responds to commands like eject and it lets 
> me see its error counts using a utility program.
> 
> The problem is that it refuses to read any media that I give it. The 
> drive is very clean - I removed the top and had a look inside the 
> mechanism to be certain. It is a caddy loading model so I can't tell for 
> sure that the head has clear access but everything seems to be operating 
> freely. I'm using old pressed aluminum discs (OS/2 Warp) which should be 
> fine in any CD-ROM device. I have tried cleaning the heads with a 
> special CD that has the magic fibers on it, but nothing is helping.  (I 
> even reached in gently with a Q-tip and isopropyl alcohol, but that did 
> not change anything.)

Most older (at least) CD-ROM drives and CD players do muc hthe same thing 
when asked toread a disk. They go through this sequence : 

1) Turn on laser, get intensity correct
2) Energize focus coil, move objective lense away from disk until focus 
point found (they normally do this a couple of times)
3) Start spindle motor,start to track, get speed correct.


So, you want to see how far into that sequence it's getting. In 
particular, is the disk ever spinning when toy try to read it? If not, 
it's either that the spidnel motor or its drive is defective _OR_ that 
the thin never foudn the focus point, possibly due to problems with the 
laser. 

If the disk is spinning, there will be a testpoint on the photodiode 
preamplifier where you cna conenct a 'scope to see the 'RF Eye' pattern. 
Thsi point is often lavelled, amazingly, and conencting a 'scope there is 
a good next step.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Jun 17 16:02:06 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 22:02:06 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Load Testing PDP11 Power Supplies
In-Reply-To: <CADeD5WEE5ON7b2L+-reFtnAebJZCCa3OYiCSxu406Ad9BjZ=bA@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Andrew Quinn" at Jun 17, 12 09:00:11 pm
Message-ID: <m1SgMbr-000J4fC@p850ug1>

> 
> I am making progress testing the power supply for my 11/04 (BA11-K chassis)
> and so far have worked through the power control box, transformer, fans and
> the 15VDC regulator/Power Line monitor but have one question for the
> group....
> 
> I am seeing in tolerance output voltages from the 15VDC regulator but I
> haven't loaded tested it.  Is this something I should do or if the unloaded
> outputs are within tolerance then it is safe to use (once the other
> regulators are done)?

If the votlage drops on load, the machine might not work correctly, but 
in general no damage will be done. 

It is rare, but possible [1] for the output of a regualtor to rise on 
load. It's therefore always safest to do a load test [2] but it's less 
importnat than chackign the PSU off-load in the first place.

[1] The normal casue of this is an swithcing regulator -- the H744, for 
example, but not IIRC< the +15V supply in the BA11-K -- where hte output 
capacitor has got a high ESR. You can get some spikes on the output 
several times the correct outptu votlage,adn they get worse asnm the laod 
increases. I had a suppy in an HP device that would work fine off load 
but where the crowbar would trip as soon as you loaded it. A newer 
capcitor solved the problem, once I'd worked out what was going on.

[2] Car bulbs are nominally 12V, but car electricak systems run at 13.8V 
or so when the engine is running. Such blubs should stand 15V for a short 
time -- long enough to test the supply.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Jun 17 15:40:19 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:40:19 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair?
In-Reply-To: <4FDD6761.3090707@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 16,
 12 10:13:05 pm
Message-ID: <m1SgMGn-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

> Anyhow, it's already broken. You're not going to make it worse.

While I would agree that's probably true _in this case_, it could be very 
bad advice in other cases.

You might have a unit with a trivial fault, but by messing around with it 
in the wrong way, you could turn it into a much worse problem.

For example, you might have a floppy drive with just a drive belt 
probklem. But if you mess up the head alignment, you will then not only 
have to rpelace the belt but also get an alignment disk... Or you might 
haev a machine with an easy-to-get IC that's failed. Mess up the PSU or 
zap the thing with static, and yoy may have to also replace many much 
harder-to-get ICs

-tony


From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Sun Jun 17 16:57:33 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (iamcamiel at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:57:33 +0000
Subject: Fwd: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse
 S/120 power connector)
In-Reply-To: <4FDE2EAB.5070909@charter.net>
References: <CA+0-H5QaEwXeX0ksPdKOafc2Xzj_yabtb7GTEoQ_heR5piiiJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+0-H5R+D1ac3rmtPN8tav46AzLLNfX7k93k1FwmTJ3Lq41Fpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDE2EAB.5070909@charter.net>
Message-ID: <1091674278-1339970227-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1124683644-@b4.c2.bise7.blackberry>

Is the row nearest to the front edge of the board pupulated in yours?

Verzonden vanaf mijn BlackBerry?-toestel van  T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 14:23:23 
To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
 <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse
 S/120 power connector)

I have an illustration in my DG "Installation and Packaging for Data 
General Products" 014-000605-02  - it is 1.5 inches thick 14 7/8 x 11, 
covering Nova 2 thru 4, Eclipse S/100 thru MV/1800, MP/100, MP/200 and 
various peripherals - really handy for jumper settings and the like.) 
that appears to match up (3 rows of 6 jumper positions each), but with 
different labelling.  I also have this very board in my Nova 4 -- but 
apparently with less memory than you have.

The illustration is thus in my book:

o      o      o      o      o      o
w     w      w     w     w      w
  2     4      6     8     10     12
o      o      o      o      o      o
w      w     w     w     w     w
1      3      5      7      9      13
o      o      o      o      o      o

According to this chart, then, you have   w1, w3 and w5 inserted.

The book says that w1, w3 and w5 are ALWAYS inserted and that w2, w4 and 
w6 are NEVER inserted.  This is consistent with what you have and with 
what I have in my machine.

The board can be populated as 32KB, 64KB, 128KB and 256KB.

For a 256KB board, no other jumpers are inserted.
For a 128KB board, W7 is inserted.
For a 64KB board, W7 and W9 are inserted.
For a 32KB board, W7, W9 and W11 are inserted.

If yours is indeed 256KB (128K words) then no other jumpers should be 
present, and your board is jumpered as one would expect according to the 
doc.

*My* board has every other row present, and so is a 128KB board.  I thus 
have 4 rows out of the total of 8 populated, with 15 chips per populated 
row (and 5 empty spots in each of the populated rows).   w7 is inserted, 
as one would expect from the doc.  And, on my board the labels are the 
same ones you are seeing:  16, 17, 18, 19, 0, 1  (So I have 16, 17, 18 
and 19 inserted in the "0" row -- the same as w1, w3, w5 and w7, above).

Jay

On 6/17/2012 10:02 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 6:30 AM, Jay Jaeger<cube1 at charter.net>  wrote:
>> Update. I did just find some DG Doc, in the Nova 4 16 Slot Illustrated Parts
>> Breakdown (016-000940-00) that I have.
>>
>> Curiously, for 120v, they show Hot going to Pin *** 4 ***, but the plug
>> otherwise wired exactly as I described in my previous message.  But, I think
>> that is in error, and one should wire hot to pin ***3 *** for 120V.
>>
>> For 240V they show Hot going to pin 3, neutral to 9, and ground to 5 (and
>> 6).  For 240V the only interconnects they show are from 1 to 11 and from 4
>> to 7 (as opposed to 4 to 8 for 120V).  Again, I think that hot pin 3 is in
>> error, and (probably) for 240V, one should wire hot to pin 4 BUT I HAVE NO
>> WAY TO VERIFY THIS.
>>
>> HOWEVER, I did go back and re-verify what I wrote earlier on both my Nova/4
>> and (now) my S/140 as well and both have pin 3 as HOT.  All 120V of it.
>>
>> Other than that, the interconnections I described below match the doc.  The
>> only variance is between hot for 120v (I say pin 3, they say 4) and hot for
>> 240v (they say pin 3).
>>
>> Go figure.  (Unfortunately, I don't have power supply drawings that I can
>> use to arbitrate).
> Thanks Jay,
>
> Using this, I was able to get the power supply going. All voltages
> check out OK, so after some careful examination I've plugged in the
> CPU board. The expected output on the console port is the "O" from
> "OK"; the K isn't printed because there's no memory.
>
> Powered it on, and after some twiddling with the console cable pinout
> (weird one) yes, there's the "O".
>
> Installed the memory board, powered it on again, and alas, still "O"
> rather than "OK". The Field Engineer's Reference says that that means
> a memory failure.
>
> Of course, the memory board could be faulty, but it could also be a
> matter of incorrect jumper settings on the memory board. I haven't
> been able to find a description of these yet.
>
> The board says "DGC BBU MEMORY", and contains 8 x 16 AM9016DPC ic's
> (4116 equivalent). That makes it 128 16-bit kilowords of memory (no
> parity or ECC, although there are 5 empty spots per row).
>
> There are 6 jumper positions labeled 16,17,18,19,0 and 1; each can
> have a jumper in the 0 or in the 1 position. My board has a jumper in
> the "0" position for jumpers 16, 17 and 18. No jumpers in the other
> three positions:
>
>   o  o  o  o  o  o
> 1
>   o  o  o  o  o  o
> 0 |  |  |
>   o  o  o  o  o  o
>   16 17 18 19 0  1
>
> Is anyone familiar with these?
>
> Camiel
>
>



From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Jun 17 17:09:55 2012
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:09:55 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse
 S/120 power connector)
In-Reply-To: <1091674278-1339970227-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1124683644-@b4.c2.bise7.blackberry>
References: <CA+0-H5QaEwXeX0ksPdKOafc2Xzj_yabtb7GTEoQ_heR5piiiJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+0-H5R+D1ac3rmtPN8tav46AzLLNfX7k93k1FwmTJ3Lq41Fpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDE2EAB.5070909@charter.net>
 <1091674278-1339970227-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1124683644-@b4.c2.bise7.blackberry>
Message-ID: <4FDE55B3.90000@charter.net>

Row of???

If you mean memory chips, the answer is yes.  Then a blank row, then the 
the next row of memory chips, and so on.

On 6/17/2012 4:57 PM, iamcamiel at gmail.com wrote:
> Is the row nearest to the front edge of the board pupulated in yours?
>
> Verzonden vanaf mijn BlackBerry?-toestel van  T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jay Jaeger<cube1 at charter.net>
> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 14:23:23
> To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>   <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse
>   S/120 power connector)
>
> I have an illustration in my DG "Installation and Packaging for Data
> General Products" 014-000605-02  - it is 1.5 inches thick 14 7/8 x 11,
> covering Nova 2 thru 4, Eclipse S/100 thru MV/1800, MP/100, MP/200 and
> various peripherals - really handy for jumper settings and the like.)
> that appears to match up (3 rows of 6 jumper positions each), but with
> different labelling.  I also have this very board in my Nova 4 -- but
> apparently with less memory than you have.
>
> The illustration is thus in my book:
>
> o      o      o      o      o      o
> w     w      w     w     w      w
>    2     4      6     8     10     12
> o      o      o      o      o      o
> w      w     w     w     w     w
> 1      3      5      7      9      13
> o      o      o      o      o      o
>
> According to this chart, then, you have   w1, w3 and w5 inserted.
>
> The book says that w1, w3 and w5 are ALWAYS inserted and that w2, w4 and
> w6 are NEVER inserted.  This is consistent with what you have and with
> what I have in my machine.
>
> The board can be populated as 32KB, 64KB, 128KB and 256KB.
>
> For a 256KB board, no other jumpers are inserted.
> For a 128KB board, W7 is inserted.
> For a 64KB board, W7 and W9 are inserted.
> For a 32KB board, W7, W9 and W11 are inserted.
>
> If yours is indeed 256KB (128K words) then no other jumpers should be
> present, and your board is jumpered as one would expect according to the
> doc.
>
> *My* board has every other row present, and so is a 128KB board.  I thus
> have 4 rows out of the total of 8 populated, with 15 chips per populated
> row (and 5 empty spots in each of the populated rows).   w7 is inserted,
> as one would expect from the doc.  And, on my board the labels are the
> same ones you are seeing:  16, 17, 18, 19, 0, 1  (So I have 16, 17, 18
> and 19 inserted in the "0" row -- the same as w1, w3, w5 and w7, above).
>
> Jay
>
> On 6/17/2012 10:02 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
>> On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 6:30 AM, Jay Jaeger<cube1 at charter.net>   wrote:
>>> Update. I did just find some DG Doc, in the Nova 4 16 Slot Illustrated Parts
>>> Breakdown (016-000940-00) that I have.
>>>
>>> Curiously, for 120v, they show Hot going to Pin *** 4 ***, but the plug
>>> otherwise wired exactly as I described in my previous message.  But, I think
>>> that is in error, and one should wire hot to pin ***3 *** for 120V.
>>>
>>> For 240V they show Hot going to pin 3, neutral to 9, and ground to 5 (and
>>> 6).  For 240V the only interconnects they show are from 1 to 11 and from 4
>>> to 7 (as opposed to 4 to 8 for 120V).  Again, I think that hot pin 3 is in
>>> error, and (probably) for 240V, one should wire hot to pin 4 BUT I HAVE NO
>>> WAY TO VERIFY THIS.
>>>
>>> HOWEVER, I did go back and re-verify what I wrote earlier on both my Nova/4
>>> and (now) my S/140 as well and both have pin 3 as HOT.  All 120V of it.
>>>
>>> Other than that, the interconnections I described below match the doc.  The
>>> only variance is between hot for 120v (I say pin 3, they say 4) and hot for
>>> 240v (they say pin 3).
>>>
>>> Go figure.  (Unfortunately, I don't have power supply drawings that I can
>>> use to arbitrate).
>> Thanks Jay,
>>
>> Using this, I was able to get the power supply going. All voltages
>> check out OK, so after some careful examination I've plugged in the
>> CPU board. The expected output on the console port is the "O" from
>> "OK"; the K isn't printed because there's no memory.
>>
>> Powered it on, and after some twiddling with the console cable pinout
>> (weird one) yes, there's the "O".
>>
>> Installed the memory board, powered it on again, and alas, still "O"
>> rather than "OK". The Field Engineer's Reference says that that means
>> a memory failure.
>>
>> Of course, the memory board could be faulty, but it could also be a
>> matter of incorrect jumper settings on the memory board. I haven't
>> been able to find a description of these yet.
>>
>> The board says "DGC BBU MEMORY", and contains 8 x 16 AM9016DPC ic's
>> (4116 equivalent). That makes it 128 16-bit kilowords of memory (no
>> parity or ECC, although there are 5 empty spots per row).
>>
>> There are 6 jumper positions labeled 16,17,18,19,0 and 1; each can
>> have a jumper in the 0 or in the 1 position. My board has a jumper in
>> the "0" position for jumpers 16, 17 and 18. No jumpers in the other
>> three positions:
>>
>>    o  o  o  o  o  o
>> 1
>>    o  o  o  o  o  o
>> 0 |  |  |
>>    o  o  o  o  o  o
>>    16 17 18 19 0  1
>>
>> Is anyone familiar with these?
>>
>> Camiel
>>
>>
>


From d235j.1 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 17 19:27:32 2012
From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 20:27:32 -0400
Subject: Polaroid ProPalette 8000 Film Recorder in Richmond, VA area
Message-ID: <9046651357454924299@unknownmsgid>

So I was digging around looking for one of these (an 8000-line
CRT-based film recorder, basically it's used to print digital photos
to photographic film), and I managed to find one being liquidated.
Unfortunately they will not ship, and I'm in Philadelphia, which is
rather far from Richmond. So if anyone wants to pick this up, feel
free - $20 or so is quite a deal, as this model can fetch $350 or so
on eBay.

http://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=18024&acctid=226

It hasn't sold the first time they listed it (at $35) so I don't
expect it to go for much. I'm willing to pay the cost, and for
shipping and the trouble, but if you're doing photographic stuff, by
all means use it. I just don't want to see it get dumped or recycled,
like most unsold surplus items end up.

Thanks!

--David Ryskalczyk


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 17 19:28:06 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:28:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Dude, I apologize, but someone got to it first. I will be able to provide a scan of the book (which is an excellent assembly language tutorial) w/my digital camera. 



________________________________
 From: Randy Kindig <randall.kindig at gmail.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org> 
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
 
Randall Kindig
2505 S 500 W
Lebanon, IN 46052

Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:43 PM, Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> just send me your address. Jim Butterfield. Sent or tossed by Monday.
> 

From silent700 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 17 23:37:56 2012
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 23:37:56 -0500
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SFdEYPW7pO4WByFzDFQk3ctodiL1F+hcuHw0hhAi1LZfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Chris Tofu
<rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dude, I apologize, but someone got to it first. I will be able to provide a scan of the book (which is an excellent assembly language tutorial) w/my digital camera.
>

Probably can be found here:

http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/books.htm#MACHINE_LANGUAGE_and_ASSEMBLY_LANGUAGE


From hauke at Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE  Sun Jun 17 10:05:07 2012
From: hauke at Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:05:07 +0200
Subject: Older CD-ROM refuses to read media - ideas for repair?
In-Reply-To: <4FDD1173.1070709@brutman.com>
Message-ID: <l03102800cc03a24d83cb@q840.causeuse.org>

At 18:06 Uhr -0500 16.6.2012, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
>So, any ideas on what I can do to clean the head further? (It might just
>be hopelessly out of alignment - I don't know the history of the drive.)

For a 20 year old CDROM drive, I'd expect the laser diode to fade.

HAND,
hauke


--
"It's never straight up and down"     (DEVO)




From nudnick1944 at sbcglobal.net  Sun Jun 17 16:26:01 2012
From: nudnick1944 at sbcglobal.net (The Nudnik)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 16:26:01 -0500
Subject: Tandy DWP 220 printer
Message-ID: <2DD41E783A454BAFA6BE9BD6D75D9440@Nudnik>

We have a Tandy DWP 220 printer complete with extra Daisy Wheels, cables & ribbon cartridges. 

The printer is in mint condition. We?re moving to Hawaii soon and we are looking to clear out our closets...

Please respond if you or someone you know might be interested.

Regards,
Stu in K C

That?s Why They Call Me...

The Nudnik!!! 

From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 06:37:15 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:37:15 +0200
Subject: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120
 power connector)
In-Reply-To: <4FDE55B3.90000@charter.net>
References: <CA+0-H5QaEwXeX0ksPdKOafc2Xzj_yabtb7GTEoQ_heR5piiiJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+0-H5R+D1ac3rmtPN8tav46AzLLNfX7k93k1FwmTJ3Lq41Fpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDE2EAB.5070909@charter.net>
 <1091674278-1339970227-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1124683644-@b4.c2.bise7.blackberry>
 <4FDE55B3.90000@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5SRepycj4etVVXUqkcRk-JXNad=Jf5+pRpaQGFk2JZ_oQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
> Row of???
>
> If you mean memory chips, the answer is yes. ?Then a blank row, then the the
> next row of memory chips, and so on.

Yes, that's what I meant. I'm trying to figure out which row has the
lowest 16KB of memory (assuming they're not interleaved). I've tried
piggybacking 4116 chips onto the first and last row of memory chips to
no avail. I do not have enough 4116'es to do the entire board.


What does work though is the console interface. I can hit the reset
button and get the ? prompt. I can list the contents of registers and
memory. Is there a way to see which memory chips are suspect from this
output?


Bruce Ray at Wild Hare has been helping out too (off-list). He asked
for specific part numbers, so here goes:
Chassis    : M0061411 D1882 P T005 12080 R67
NVR Supply : E0470375 D0882 P A005 12074 R26 T005 12429 R30
Backplane  : E0502539 D1282 P A005 12072 R10 T005 12073 R10
0 - Supply : E0526152 D1682 P A005 12062 R48 T005 18878 R00
1 - CPU    : E0471713
2 - RAM    : E0752855
3 - DIABLO?: Rianda Electronics Assy No 020000-21H
5 - SERIAL?: E0859602 D0683 P A005 2041 R16 T005 3523 R10
10 - TAPE  : Western Peripherals TC120 Mag Tape Controller
12 - SERL? : LV0010629 D3883 P A2041 R16 T3523 R10
15 - SMD   : ZETACO Model 295 Storage Module Disk Controller

It looks like the CPU and RAM have most of their identification codes cut off.

On the back of the backplane, the following connections are made:
1 - console port
2 - A-Side and B-Side terminators
3 - Two wide ribbon connectors ending in a 50-pin MRAC connector.
There's a hand-written label attached that reads:
                  Rianda Electronics
                  AC020075-002X-06
                  DIABLO SEP 85
    This leads me to suspect that the Rianda card in slot 3 is a
diablo disk controller. Can anyone confirm this
5 - 20 pin card edge connector, 5 wires connected (A81, A85, B54, B69,
B99 as far as I can tell)
10 - 1 50-pin card-edge connector and 2 26-pin card edge connectors
12 - same as 5
15 - none, the ZETACO has its connectors on the front of the card
16 - two large connectors going to a 100-pin card edge connector.
There is a card that fits this with a hand-written label that reads:
                  879-0066-000A
                  Terminator
                  I/O Board
                  Rev. A - Term. I/O - 6
                  5-16-83
 On the A-side of the backplane there are some wire-wrap connections
on pins 93-96:
   4 : A94 - 5 : A94
   4 : A96 - 5 : A96
   5 : A93 - 9 : A93
   5 : A95 - 9 : A95
   11 : A94 - 12 : A94
   11 : A96 - 12 : A96
   12 : A93 - 14 : A93
   12 : A95 - 14 : A95

Cheers,

Camiel



From cube1 at charter.net  Mon Jun 18 08:21:58 2012
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 08:21:58 -0500
Subject: Nova-4 memory jumper settings (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120
 power connector)
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5SRepycj4etVVXUqkcRk-JXNad=Jf5+pRpaQGFk2JZ_oQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+0-H5QaEwXeX0ksPdKOafc2Xzj_yabtb7GTEoQ_heR5piiiJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+0-H5R+D1ac3rmtPN8tav46AzLLNfX7k93k1FwmTJ3Lq41Fpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDE2EAB.5070909@charter.net>
 <1091674278-1339970227-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1124683644-@b4.c2.bise7.blackberry>
 <4FDE55B3.90000@charter.net>
 <CA+0-H5SRepycj4etVVXUqkcRk-JXNad=Jf5+pRpaQGFk2JZ_oQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDF2B76.5030508@charter.net>

The maintenance manual page 60 indicates that the 4 accumulators have 
the address information?

If you can do that much, why not just write yourself a really simple 
machine language program to test the memory?


On 6/18/2012 6:37 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Jay Jaeger<cube1 at charter.net>  wrote:
>> Row of???
>>
>> If you mean memory chips, the answer is yes.  Then a blank row, then the the
>> next row of memory chips, and so on.
> Yes, that's what I meant. I'm trying to figure out which row has the
> lowest 16KB of memory (assuming they're not interleaved). I've tried
> piggybacking 4116 chips onto the first and last row of memory chips to
> no avail. I do not have enough 4116'es to do the entire board.
>
>
> What does work though is the console interface. I can hit the reset
> button and get the ? prompt. I can list the contents of registers and
> memory. Is there a way to see which memory chips are suspect from this
> output?
>
>
> Bruce Ray at Wild Hare has been helping out too (off-list). He asked
> for specific part numbers, so here goes:
> Chassis    : M0061411 D1882 P T005 12080 R67
> NVR Supply : E0470375 D0882 P A005 12074 R26 T005 12429 R30
> Backplane  : E0502539 D1282 P A005 12072 R10 T005 12073 R10
> 0 - Supply : E0526152 D1682 P A005 12062 R48 T005 18878 R00
> 1 - CPU    : E0471713
> 2 - RAM    : E0752855
> 3 - DIABLO?: Rianda Electronics Assy No 020000-21H
> 5 - SERIAL?: E0859602 D0683 P A005 2041 R16 T005 3523 R10
> 10 - TAPE  : Western Peripherals TC120 Mag Tape Controller
> 12 - SERL? : LV0010629 D3883 P A2041 R16 T3523 R10
> 15 - SMD   : ZETACO Model 295 Storage Module Disk Controller
>
> It looks like the CPU and RAM have most of their identification codes cut off.
>
> On the back of the backplane, the following connections are made:
> 1 - console port
> 2 - A-Side and B-Side terminators
> 3 - Two wide ribbon connectors ending in a 50-pin MRAC connector.
> There's a hand-written label attached that reads:
>                    Rianda Electronics
>                    AC020075-002X-06
>                    DIABLO SEP 85
>      This leads me to suspect that the Rianda card in slot 3 is a
> diablo disk controller. Can anyone confirm this
> 5 - 20 pin card edge connector, 5 wires connected (A81, A85, B54, B69,
> B99 as far as I can tell)
> 10 - 1 50-pin card-edge connector and 2 26-pin card edge connectors
> 12 - same as 5
> 15 - none, the ZETACO has its connectors on the front of the card
> 16 - two large connectors going to a 100-pin card edge connector.
> There is a card that fits this with a hand-written label that reads:
>                    879-0066-000A
>                    Terminator
>                    I/O Board
>                    Rev. A - Term. I/O - 6
>                    5-16-83
>   On the A-side of the backplane there are some wire-wrap connections
> on pins 93-96:
>     4 : A94 - 5 : A94
>     4 : A96 - 5 : A96
>     5 : A93 - 9 : A93
>     5 : A95 - 9 : A95
>     11 : A94 - 12 : A94
>     11 : A96 - 12 : A96
>     12 : A93 - 14 : A93
>     12 : A95 - 14 : A95
>
> Cheers,
>
> Camiel
>
>


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Jun 18 07:39:11 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 05:39:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Sun, 17 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:

> Dude, I apologize, but someone got to it first. I will be able to 
> provide a scan of the book (which is an excellent assembly language 
> tutorial) w/my digital camera.

No need:
http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/books/pdf/Machine_Language_for_the_Commodore_Revised_and_Expanded_Edition.zip

(and stop top posting)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From james at slor.net  Mon Jun 18 08:51:15 2012
From: james at slor.net (James)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 09:51:15 -0400
Subject: Wanted: Original Kaypro 16 floppies
Message-ID: <01ce01cd4d59$6e9e5230$4bdaf690$@slor.net>

Thought I'd try one more time.  Anyone?

-----Original Message-----
From: James [mailto:james at slor.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 12:41 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Wanted: Original Kaypro 16 floppies

I've been looking for an original floppy disk set for my Kaypro 16 (not 16/2
or any others) for a while now.  Anyone on this list have a set to part
with?  Or, worst case, anyone have a set they could copy/image for me?

Thanks!
James



From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 10:37:42 2012
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:37:42 -0500
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
Message-ID: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>


Has anyone (probably!) hacked together a PSU for a C64 using a PC PSU? How 
close do the AC lines have to be to a 9V sine wave?

I've got someone offering me an unknown-condition C64/1541/1702 which is 
missing its PSU (and possibly the cable between the drive and computer), so 
if I do bite I'd be looking to do a quick hack just to see how operational 
everything is before I go trying to find a genuine PSU from somewhere.

TBH, I'm not sure what my options are for getting software onto disk, 
either - it's not clear whether the current owner has any media at all (I 
get the impression that they've just unearthed the machine in storage, but 
various bits that they once had have gone missing over the years). A quick 
google seems to suggest that there are ways and means though, given that 
I'd have a 1541 (if it works ;)

cheers

Jules


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 11:15:05 2012
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:15:05 -0500
Subject: ebay: 70 Commodore PETs for sale (Boise, ID)
In-Reply-To: <E1Sg0SM-0007nf-4V@shell.xmission.com>
References: <1339836699.80980.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <4FDC5400.7020305@fenz.net> <E1Sg0SM-0007nf-4V@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4FDF5409.5020106@gmail.com>

On 06/16/2012 04:22 PM, Richard wrote:
> There isn't much recycle value in these because you have to *pay* to
> have the monitor recycled.

I did offload a CRT - just the tube - at an electronics recycling event 
recently, but I suspect that wouldn't scale to 70 of them :-)

> They're big, they're heavy and expensive to ship.

And, IIRC, prone to various electronic faults - some of which are 
time-related, whether the machine is used or not. Not to mention that the 
metal cases seem to enjoy rusting if they're not stored well.

cheers

Jules


From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 18 11:12:16 2012
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:12:16 -0500
Subject: Polaroid ProPalette 8000 Film Recorder in Richmond, VA area
In-Reply-To: <9046651357454924299@unknownmsgid>
References: <9046651357454924299@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <BLU145-W8885091213E5D45547BBFBAF80@phx.gbl>


Those things are sooo cool!

I was a sales engineer at NASA, and probably sold 20+ Matrix QRZ film recorders @25K per copy, and kept one for myself.  Of course it beat the pants off the Pallete in terms of resolution and writing speed.
Enjoy your toy!
Randy

> From: d235j.1 at gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 20:27:32 -0400
> Subject: Polaroid ProPalette 8000 Film Recorder in Richmond, VA area
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> 
> So I was digging around looking for one of these (an 8000-line
> CRT-based film recorder, basically it's used to print digital photos
> to photographic film), and I managed to find one being liquidated.
> Unfortunately they will not ship, and I'm in Philadelphia, which is
> rather far from Richmond. So if anyone wants to pick this up, feel
> free - $20 or so is quite a deal, as this model can fetch $350 or so
> on eBay.
> 
> http://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=18024&acctid=226
> 
> It hasn't sold the first time they listed it (at $35) so I don't
> expect it to go for much. I'm willing to pay the cost, and for
> shipping and the trouble, but if you're doing photographic stuff, by
> all means use it. I just don't want to see it get dumped or recycled,
> like most unsold surplus items end up.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> --David Ryskalczyk
 		 	   		  

From ray at arachelian.com  Mon Jun 18 11:21:56 2012
From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 12:21:56 -0400
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
Message-ID: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>

Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola 68K system that works
well enough to install either linux/bsd in?  Would like to be able to
compile and test stuff with GCC to 68K assembly while on the go from an
intel macbook pro.

Something that could run under MESS would be nice, as an example, but
would like a unixy tool-chain.



From ryan at hack.net  Mon Jun 18 11:55:57 2012
From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:55:57 -0500
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
Message-ID: <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>

Boy, I'd love this too.   It seems like the UAE and Atari people have partially supported the 040+ MMU (looks like no one is interested in the 030 MMU), but it would be great if there was just a command line emulator, sorta like a a live monitor.

Let us know what you find,

Ryan


On Jun 18, 2012, at 11:21 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola 68K system that works
> well enough to install either linux/bsd in?  Would like to be able to
> compile and test stuff with GCC to 68K assembly while on the go from an
> intel macbook pro.
> 
> Something that could run under MESS would be nice, as an example, but
> would like a unixy tool-chain.
> 




From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Jun 18 12:05:45 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:05:45 -0700
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
In-Reply-To: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>
References: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240826cc050fa498db@[192.168.1.199]>

I'd think there has to be something on the web about hacking a 
powersupply together.  A few years back I went looking for a specific 
model of 3rd party supply that was recommended to me and got one off 
eBay.

My main C64 has two different interfaces that take SD cards, much 
nicer than dealing with floppies.

10-15 years ago it was pretty easy to hack a cable together that 
would let your PC talk to a 1541 drive.  Not sure about now, there 
are USB versions, but I think they take a lot more effort.

Zane



At 10:37 AM -0500 6/18/12, Jules Richardson wrote:
>Has anyone (probably!) hacked together a PSU for a C64 using a PC 
>PSU? How close do the AC lines have to be to a 9V sine wave?
>
>I've got someone offering me an unknown-condition C64/1541/1702 
>which is missing its PSU (and possibly the cable between the drive 
>and computer), so if I do bite I'd be looking to do a quick hack 
>just to see how operational everything is before I go trying to find 
>a genuine PSU from somewhere.
>
>TBH, I'm not sure what my options are for getting software onto 
>disk, either - it's not clear whether the current owner has any 
>media at all (I get the impression that they've just unearthed the 
>machine in storage, but various bits that they once had have gone 
>missing over the years). A quick google seems to suggest that there 
>are ways and means though, given that I'd have a 1541 (if it works ;)
>
>cheers
>
>Jules


-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From ryan at hack.net  Mon Jun 18 12:06:22 2012
From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 12:06:22 -0500
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
Message-ID: <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>

Here's the Atari one: http://aranym.sourceforge.net/

On Jun 18, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Ryan Brooks wrote:

> Boy, I'd love this too.   It seems like the UAE and Atari people have partially supported the 040+ MMU (looks like no one is interested in the 030 MMU), but it would be great if there was just a command line emulator, sorta like a a live monitor.
> 
> Let us know what you find,
> 
> Ryan
> 
> 
> On Jun 18, 2012, at 11:21 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote:
> 
>> Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola 68K system that works
>> well enough to install either linux/bsd in?  Would like to be able to
>> compile and test stuff with GCC to 68K assembly while on the go from an
>> intel macbook pro.
>> 
>> Something that could run under MESS would be nice, as an example, but
>> would like a unixy tool-chain.
>> 
> 
> 




From ray at arachelian.com  Mon Jun 18 12:07:17 2012
From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:07:17 -0400
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
Message-ID: <4FDF6045.5030203@arachelian.com>

On 06/18/2012 12:55 PM, Ryan Brooks wrote:
> Boy, I'd love this too.   It seems like the UAE and Atari people have partially supported the 040+ MMU (looks like no one is interested in the 030 MMU), but it would be great if there was just a command line emulator, sorta like a a live monitor.
>
> Let us know what you find,
>

030 would be perfectly fine...  Sadly BSD and Linux both would require a
working MMU...  I'd be happy with just a text console and a shell. 
Basically want to experiment with stuff I'd normally do on the NeXT. 
UAE might do the trick if I can get a unix with GCC for it.

I suppose in the absolute worst case I can always use Think C, MPW, or
CodeWarrior on Basilisk II, but, I'd prefer GCC, so I don't have to go
fiddling with the compiler switches and other incompatibilities.


From dgahling at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 18 12:12:03 2012
From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:12:03 -0400
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
In-Reply-To: <p06240826cc050fa498db@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>,
 <p06240826cc050fa498db@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <BLU166-W1371A952863B44BB1F5D1DC9F80@phx.gbl>


Zane,
Catweasel definitely has a method to connect a 1541 to a PC.best USB option is still the zoomfloppy (xumfloppy).
Kyroflux just recently did a TON of work on the g64 format,so there should be something there as well.

> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:05:45 -0700
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> From: healyzh at aracnet.com
> Subject: Re: C64 temporary PSU
> 
> I'd think there has to be something on the web about hacking a 
> powersupply together.  A few years back I went looking for a specific 
> model of 3rd party supply that was recommended to me and got one off 
> eBay.
> 
> My main C64 has two different interfaces that take SD cards, much 
> nicer than dealing with floppies.
> 
> 10-15 years ago it was pretty easy to hack a cable together that 
> would let your PC talk to a 1541 drive.  Not sure about now, there 
> are USB versions, but I think they take a lot more effort.
> 
> Zane
> 
> 
> 
> At 10:37 AM -0500 6/18/12, Jules Richardson wrote:
> >Has anyone (probably!) hacked together a PSU for a C64 using a PC 
> >PSU? How close do the AC lines have to be to a 9V sine wave?
> >
> >I've got someone offering me an unknown-condition C64/1541/1702 
> >which is missing its PSU (and possibly the cable between the drive 
> >and computer), so if I do bite I'd be looking to do a quick hack 
> >just to see how operational everything is before I go trying to find 
> >a genuine PSU from somewhere.
> >
> >TBH, I'm not sure what my options are for getting software onto 
> >disk, either - it's not clear whether the current owner has any 
> >media at all (I get the impression that they've just unearthed the 
> >machine in storage, but various bits that they once had have gone 
> >missing over the years). A quick google seems to suggest that there 
> >are ways and means though, given that I'd have a 1541 (if it works ;)
> >
> >cheers
> >
> >Jules
> 
> 
> -- 
> | Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
> | healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
> |                                  | Photographer               |
> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
> |                     My flickr Photostream                     |
> |          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |
> 
 		 	   		  

From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 12:17:40 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:17:40 -0300
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
Message-ID: <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>


    Dear friends, 
    
    Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC for learning?

    I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware

    Thanks
    Alexandre

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br


From ray at arachelian.com  Mon Jun 18 12:21:31 2012
From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:21:31 -0400
Subject: Apple Lisa Twiggy Schematics!
In-Reply-To: <4FDF62BD.6090202@arachelian.com>
References: <4FDF62BD.6090202@arachelian.com>
Message-ID: <4FDF639B.9090103@arachelian.com>



Courtesy of John Woodall of http://VintageMicros.com

direct link: http://lisa.sunder.net/TwiggySchematicsRight.pdf
(available on this page: http://lisaem.sunder.net/books.html )

Thanks John!!!



From ryan at hack.net  Mon Jun 18 12:28:26 2012
From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 12:28:26 -0500
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <4FDF6045.5030203@arachelian.com>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <4FDF6045.5030203@arachelian.com>
Message-ID: <DF4537DB-4228-4B0E-A0C3-9E3BA884C87B@hack.net>


On Jun 18, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote:

> On 06/18/2012 12:55 PM, Ryan Brooks wrote:
>> Boy, I'd love this too.   It seems like the UAE and Atari people have partially supported the 040+ MMU (looks like no one is interested in the 030 MMU), but it would be great if there was just a command line emulator, sorta like a a live monitor.
>> 
>> Let us know what you find,
>> 
> 
> 030 would be perfectly fine?

The 040/060 MMU is actually easier as I recall.     I've seen some references to UAE w/o the JIT stuff having a patch for MMU, but I'm unfamiliar with this.        

Building a GCC cross compiler for 68k isn't that difficult, see:

http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~klingens/files/crossgcc.pdf


-Ryan

>  Sadly BSD and Linux both would require a
> working MMU...  I'd be happy with just a text console and a shell. 
> Basically want to experiment with stuff I'd normally do on the NeXT. 
> UAE might do the trick if I can get a unix with GCC for it.
> 
> I suppose in the absolute worst case I can always use Think C, MPW, or
> CodeWarrior on Basilisk II, but, I'd prefer GCC, so I don't have to go
> fiddling with the compiler switches and other incompatibilities.




From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Jun 18 12:33:41 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:33:41 -0700
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
Message-ID: <4FDF6675.8020408@bitsavers.org>


>> Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola 68K system that works
>> well enough to install either linux/bsd in?

Brad Parker's version of the MIT Sun simulator may be able to boot BSD.



From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 12:52:40 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:52:40 +0200
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <4FDF6675.8020408@bitsavers.org>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <4FDF6675.8020408@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CACStewY3DoA_ejjTogS+16McuftsFB79xPb=qp2EdPGM8+rqQg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 7:33 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>
>>> Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola 68K system that works
>>> well enough to install either linux/bsd in?
>
>
> Brad Parker's version of the MIT Sun simulator may be able to boot BSD.
>
Anyone have a link to this? Can't seem to find it on my old friend...

re,

Sander

-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From brad at heeltoe.com  Mon Jun 18 12:55:30 2012
From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:55:30 -0700
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k =?UTF-8?Q?system=3F?=
Message-ID: <20120618105530.9a4f1a4b2a45238f732670fb1ee2460e.1f237d5fc9.wbe@email16.secureserver.net>



> Subject: Re: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
> From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
> Date: Mon, June 18, 2012 10:33 am
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com>
> 
> >> Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola 68K system that works
> >> well enough to install either linux/bsd in?
> 
> Brad Parker's version of the MIT Sun simulator may be able to boot BSD.

The sun2/sun3 simulator (tme) should boot netbsd out of the box.

    http://people.csail.mit.edu/fredette/tme/

I have mods which will allow it boot early sun os version (sunos 2.0,
3.2 & 3.5).

Everything works except the ethernet on 3.5 - I need to fix that.

    http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Retro.Sun2

(I miss my old sun-2 :-)

The code is pretty dense but also pretty complete.  The sun-2 is 68010
based.  As I recall

the sun-3 is 68020 based.  I can't remember if there were any 68030
based sun's.

-brad





From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 12:58:46 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:58:46 +0200
Subject: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector
In-Reply-To: <4FDF606A.9080503@Wild-Hare.com>
References: <CA+0-H5ShwqAu3uJ5S1Txw=8TQx-q8PqEaMk0zjyVFxbyn_XJNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDCF30A.5080307@Wild-Hare.com>
 <CA+0-H5RzwwWgifHm+Szgbr0BiwuY+C1-fh-WuDBfJGUgbq-NZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDD06A9.4060809@Wild-Hare.com>
 <000001cd4c54$b9df5ec0$2d9e1c40$@gmail.com>
 <4FDE0883.6020601@Wild-Hare.com>
 <002601cd4ca9$5a4619e0$0ed24da0$@gmail.com>
 <4FDEB89A.5070205@Wild-Hare.com>
 <005301cd4d16$6a8bf9b0$3fa3ed10$@gmail.com>
 <4FDF606A.9080503@Wild-Hare.com>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5Svoqnnojz4rh25a6LhdEL2h8GYmKSc8HfspYGE7UxSqw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Bruce,

I think I found the memory problem:

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Bruce <Bruce at wild-hare.com> wrote:
> I'm confused. ?The VC (Virtual Console) works okay when you hit the reset
> button, but when the computer is powered on you do not get the
>
> OK
> !000000
> !
>
> indication? ?(...per Chapter 5, Computer Self-Test, page 23)

Correct. On power on I only get an "O". VC does not respond at that
point. Once I hit the reset button, I do get

O000000
!

The VC then responds as expected.

If I remove the memory board, the behavior is exactly the same, except
that every memory address reads back as 177777 of course.

Accumulators with and without memory board:

without - 177777 125252 076000 000701
with    - 127252 125252 076041 000701

This lead me to suspect that the memory at word 41 was incorrect.
Memory locations 0 - 40 were 052525, 41, 45, 51 were 127252, 42 and up
(except those with the lowest bits being 01) were 125252.

So, it looks like the entire memory is written with 125252
(1010101010101010) first, then each word is first read, then written
with 052525 (0101010101010101).

Sure enough, when I wrote 125252 to word 41, it looked fine, but when
I wrote 052525 to word 1, it changed word 41 to 127252!

So, it looks like the memory chip that controls bit 10 for addresses
ending in 01 (binary) is at fault here. I'm going to do some wire
tracing to find out which chip this might be...

> The part numbers (005-xxxxxx-yy) are important when trying to determine the
> exact computer configuration as the same board may have different part
> numbers depending upon what chips are stuff onto the board (i.e. memory
> boards). ?If no 005 part number exists anywhere on the board the board
> artwork 107-xxxxxx-yy number may be used in extreme situations. ?I do not
> know of a 107 to 005 cross reference table but I could look at various
> in-house boards if needed.

Like I wrote, the CPU and Memory board only have part of the label
left, it looks like the actual part numbers have carefully been
clipped off. All that remains are the "E" numbers, which I presume are
a serial number. The numbers on the boards themselves read:

CPU: 10700094903/0 07 (last 07 is printed, rest of the number is copper)
Mem: 10700081303/03 (entire number copper)

> Also, the S/140, Nova 4/S, Nova 4/X could interchange boards (CPU and
> memory), so this system might not be a "true" Nova 4 - Eclipse boards could
> be used rather than Nova boards if a Field Engineering guy didn't have the
> "correct" parts. ?Nova/Eclipse CPU boards could be interchanged if the four
> (4) PROM "personality" chips were swapped.

Could that be the reason the part numbers have been removed?

Although I don't think it's likely; all the PROM chips are soldered on
(no sockets), so swapping wouldn't be all that easy. Plus, the
soldering on the PROM chips looks like it's untouched.

There are a few other areas of the main board that do show evidence of
repairs; the following parts seem to have been replaced at some point
(with approx. board locations):

- One of the IDM2901A bit slices has been replaced with an AM2901BDC @ AE11
- 74S241 @ X13
- 74LS38 @ E45
- 4 75451 drivers around E22

Thanks,

Camiel.



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Jun 18 12:59:19 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:59:19 -0700
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
In-Reply-To: <BLU166-W1371A952863B44BB1F5D1DC9F80@phx.gbl>
References: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>,
 <p06240826cc050fa498db@[192.168.1.199]>
 <BLU166-W1371A952863B44BB1F5D1DC9F80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <p06240828cc05165f2cc2@[192.168.1.199]>

At 1:12 PM -0400 6/18/12, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
>Zane,
>Catweasel definitely has a method to connect a 1541 to a PC.best USB 
>option is still the zoomfloppy (xumfloppy).
>Kyroflux just recently did a TON of work on the g64 format,so there 
>should be something there as well.

I'm still feeling burned after buying a Zorro2 Catweasel in the late 
90's.  I don't appreciate being told a product will support 'x' 
formats when in reality it wouldn't as there were no drivers.

I'm really pleased with the uIEC from Jim Brain.

I also have the MMC Replay cart with the RR-Net expansion (the new 
Chameleon 64 looks quite interesting).

My only problem is that Wasteland won't run from either solution. 
Though I guess I should dig out my DOS floppies and see if I can get 
them running under FreeDOS on Parallels Desktop on my Mac.

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From lists at loomcom.com  Mon Jun 18 13:01:02 2012
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:01:02 -0400
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
In-Reply-To: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>
References: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120618180102.GA6695@mail.loomcom.com>

* On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 10:37:42AM -0500, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Has anyone (probably!) hacked together a PSU for a C64 using a PC
> PSU? How close do the AC lines have to be to a 9V sine wave?

I've not tried to hack a PC supply, but I have made a hacked C64 power
supply out of two "wall wart" converters. One 120V to 9V AC-AC
converter, and one 120V to +5V (3A or better) regulated AC-DC converter.
Cut the ends off, solder them to the correct pins on a 7-pin DIN, and
you're golden. It requires two plugs to operate, and is definitely an
ugly kludge, but it works in a pinch.

> TBH, I'm not sure what my options are for getting software onto disk,

I use (and recommend) a ZoomFloppy, which I've had great success
with. http://store.go4retro.com/zoomfloppy/  Just plug a 1541 into it
and transfer images back and forth over USB. Pretty nifty.

-Seth


From ray at arachelian.com  Mon Jun 18 13:07:11 2012
From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:07:11 -0400
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <DF4537DB-4228-4B0E-A0C3-9E3BA884C87B@hack.net>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <4FDF6045.5030203@arachelian.com>
 <DF4537DB-4228-4B0E-A0C3-9E3BA884C87B@hack.net>
Message-ID: <4FDF6E4F.8010202@arachelian.com>

On 06/18/2012 01:28 PM, Ryan Brooks wrote:
> Building a GCC cross compiler for 68k isn't that difficult, see:
>
> http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~klingens/files/crossgcc.pdf
>

I've done this before, but obviously I can't debug the resulting code,
especially since I'll do gcc -s to get at the 68K assembly, tweak that,
and play with it.


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Jun 18 13:09:04 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:09:04 -0400
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <20120618105530.9a4f1a4b2a45238f732670fb1ee2460e.1f237d5fc9.wbe@email16.secureserver.net>
References: <20120618105530.9a4f1a4b2a45238f732670fb1ee2460e.1f237d5fc9.wbe@email16.secureserver.net>
Message-ID: <4FDF6EC0.7040700@neurotica.com>

On 06/18/2012 01:55 PM, Brad Parker wrote:
> the sun-3 is 68020 based.  I can't remember if there were any 68030
> based sun's.

  The Sun 3/80 and 3/400 are 68030-based machines.  The SunOS kernel
architecture name is "sun3x".

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Jun 18 13:10:24 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:10:24 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <4FDF6F10.2080209@neurotica.com>

On 06/18/2012 01:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>    Dear friends,       Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000
> SBC for learning?
> 
>    I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware

  I found this design a few years ago and liked it, but haven't built
one yet:

  http://www.kmitl.ac.th/~kswichit/68k/68k.html

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 13:27:47 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 20:27:47 +0200
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <20120618105530.9a4f1a4b2a45238f732670fb1ee2460e.1f237d5fc9.wbe@email16.secureserver.net>
References: <20120618105530.9a4f1a4b2a45238f732670fb1ee2460e.1f237d5fc9.wbe@email16.secureserver.net>
Message-ID: <CACStewa-3QCuqbp1X6hLeimTSintAkNTOayGM+31wkNbAZp-rQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com> wrote:
>
> The sun2/sun3 simulator (tme) should boot netbsd out of the box.
>
> ? ?http://people.csail.mit.edu/fredette/tme/
>
> I have mods which will allow it boot early sun os version (sunos 2.0,
> 3.2 & 3.5).
>
> Everything works except the ethernet on 3.5 - I need to fix that.
>
> ? ?http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Retro.Sun2
>
> (I miss my old sun-2 :-)
>
> The code is pretty dense but also pretty complete. ?The sun-2 is 68010
> based. ?As I recall
>
> the sun-3 is 68020 based. ?I can't remember if there were any 68030
> based sun's.

3/80 and up seem to be o3o based, according to Wiki.

re,

Sander


-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From ray at arachelian.com  Mon Jun 18 13:27:53 2012
From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:27:53 -0400
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
Message-ID: <4FDF7329.80601@arachelian.com>

This looks like a good starting point: https://wiki.debian.org/Aranym/Quick


From abs at absd.org  Mon Jun 18 13:29:10 2012
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:29:10 +0100
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <20120618105530.9a4f1a4b2a45238f732670fb1ee2460e.1f237d5fc9.wbe@email16.secureserver.net>
References: <20120618105530.9a4f1a4b2a45238f732670fb1ee2460e.1f237d5fc9.wbe@email16.secureserver.net>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pYJXS8X-xZ7o5qFRC=Dk9RTF9BF9wDOTNe=soeBxjr3Uw@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 18, 2012 6:58 PM, "Brad Parker" <brad at heeltoe.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Subject: Re: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
> > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
> > Date: Mon, June 18, 2012 10:33 am
> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com>
> >
> > >> Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola 68K system that
works
> > >> well enough to install either linux/bsd in?
> >
> > Brad Parker's version of the MIT Sun simulator may be able to boot BSD.
>
> The sun2/sun3 simulator (tme) should boot netbsd out of the box.
>
>    http://people.csail.mit.edu/fredette/tme/
>
> I have mods which will allow it boot early sun os version (sunos 2.0,
> 3.2 & 3.5).
>
> Everything works except the ethernet on 3.5 - I need to fix that.
>
>    http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Retro.Sun2
>
> (I miss my old sun-2 :-)
>
> The code is pretty dense but also pretty complete.  The sun-2 is 68010
> based.  As I recall
>
> the sun-3 is 68020 based.  I can't remember if there were any 68030
> based sun's.

That would be the sun3x. Came in the same case as a spare :)


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 13:36:10 2012
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:36:10 -0500
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
In-Reply-To: <p06240826cc050fa498db@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>
 <p06240826cc050fa498db@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <4FDF751A.6040105@gmail.com>

On 06/18/2012 12:05 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> I'd think there has to be something on the web about hacking a powersupply
> together.

I did wonder if there might be!

I suppose just for testing I can use a PC PSU for the +5V and see if I can 
get hold of a 9V AC supply (local thrift stores are awash with discarded 
wall-warts, printers supplies etc.). A quick google seemed to suggest that 
the 9V side needed to be quite meaty, but perhaps that's only for a system 
with cassette and a heavy load on the user port...

> 10-15 years ago it was pretty easy to hack a cable together that would let
> your PC talk to a 1541 drive. Not sure about now, there are USB versions,
> but I think they take a lot more effort.

I do have a couple of PCs here with RS232 and parallel, assuming one or the 
other was needed - just a case of whether the PC-side software is still 
available, I suppose.

cheers

Jules


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun 18 13:57:35 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:57:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
In-Reply-To: <p06240828cc05165f2cc2@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>,
 <p06240826cc050fa498db@[192.168.1.199]>
 <BLU166-W1371A952863B44BB1F5D1DC9F80@phx.gbl>
 <p06240828cc05165f2cc2@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <20120618114155.O95492@shell.lmi.net>

> At 1:12 PM -0400 6/18/12, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
> >Zane,
> >Catweasel definitely has a method to connect a 1541 to a PC.

"HAS a method" ??!?

> >best USB option is still the zoomfloppy (xumfloppy).
THAT may be what he was asking.
> >Kyroflux just recently did a TON of work on the g64 format,so there
> >should be something there as well.
AGAIN, he asked about cabling a C64 drive to a PC, which probably means
that he wants FILEs, not flux transitions.


On Mon, 18 Jun 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> I'm still feeling burned after buying a Zorro2 Catweasel in the late
> 90's.  I don't appreciate being told a product will support 'x'
> formats when in reality it wouldn't as there were no drivers.

BTDT.
"will support"
There needs to be MUCH greater care to differentiate and disambiguate
"could" V "would".

Eventually, somebody will write software that permits that hardware to
transfer FILEs.
There are two parts to the problem: software to convert the raw flux
transition data into sectors, preferably with a calling structure similar
to INT13h,
AND
software to handle the alien file system, which several of us have done
before.

ONLY when both parts of the software are functional and successfully
linked with each other, THEN it could be said that it "supports x",
without it being a BOGUS stretch from "could support it, IF
nonexistent software, . . . ".

And THEN, AND ONLY THEN, it could be an appropriate answer when somebody
asks how to get their files from x.
OK, howzbout: "The solution is simply buy or build a CatWeasel,
DiskFerret, OptionBoard, or other flux transition device, and just write
those two trivial pieces of software!"

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 18 14:25:01 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 12:25:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

(and stop top posting)


g.

C: Kindly stop telling me how to post. Some replies are sent from my stupid/smart phone. It gives me the option of whether to include the op or not. Not where to place the text...

?It's a free country after all


From mc68010 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 15:05:11 2012
From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:05:11 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <4FDF89F7.1090107@gmail.com>

On 6/18/2012 10:17 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>
>    Dear friends,       Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 
> SBC for learning?
>
>    I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware


These are really cool if you can find one 
http://www.easy68k.com/paulrsm/mecb/mecb.htm


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 18 15:07:30 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:07:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FDF6F10.2080209@neurotica.com>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FDF6F10.2080209@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <1340050050.66472.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On 06/18/2012 01:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:

>? ? Dear friends,? ? ?  Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000
> SBC for learning?
> 
>? ? I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware

?You could just opt to poke around inside an Atari ST or early Mac. I had a stack of 68000 books, most donated or thrown out.

?Here's a good question. What's the ideal text for studying 68000 h/w and s/w. Nothing I owned would I consider ideal. Dave's page looks decent, but it would be great if there was a text that describe a rudimentary 68k system
?OTOH Alex, you could opt to build one of the Radio Electronics featured 68k systems. One was explained in detail, but I think the originator wants big bucks for the firmware and whatnot. There was also a mention of a project in the later 80s, mostly in Europe, where a group designed a system from scratch. It would be nice to get my hooks on those details. I've been wanting to build a vanilla box 68k system for a long time myself.


From ryan at hack.net  Mon Jun 18 15:07:55 2012
From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 15:07:55 -0500
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <4FDF6EC0.7040700@neurotica.com>
References: <20120618105530.9a4f1a4b2a45238f732670fb1ee2460e.1f237d5fc9.wbe@email16.secureserver.net>
 <4FDF6EC0.7040700@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4FDF8A9B.8060107@hack.net>

On 6/18/12 1:09 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 06/18/2012 01:55 PM, Brad Parker wrote:
>> the sun-3 is 68020 based.  I can't remember if there were any 68030
>> based sun's.
>    The Sun 3/80 and 3/400 are 68030-based machines.  The SunOS kernel
> architecture name is "sun3x".
>
>             -Dave
>
Did all the 68k suns have custom MMUs, or did any use Motorola?



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 18 15:20:52 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:20:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FDF6F10.2080209@neurotica.com>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FDF6F10.2080209@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <1340050852.73119.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>





________________________________
 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>

? I found this design a few years ago and liked it, but haven't built
one yet:

? http://www.kmitl.ac.th/~kswichit/68k/68k.html

? ? ? ? ? ?  -Dave

?C: I like it Dave. I genuinely do. I may be unorthodox in my approaches to things. It's not that I don't like sbc's, love them in fact (God how I'd love to either research or just get to look at someone else's research regarding the myriads of 80186 sbc's that were created in the 80s). But as far as learning computers, I don't necessarily see the benefit of a sbc (much less an sdk w/a keypad), as opposed to an established system. I guess it could help to at least contrast a bare bones sbc? to say a Mac or Atari. Generally texts seek to alleviate the complexity of a *full blown* stand alone computer. But you can simply ignore what isn't relevant to a beginner's learning level. As for assembly, just jump in and start writing some code. Makes the most sense to me.


From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Jun 18 15:29:50 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:29:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
In-Reply-To: <p06240828cc05165f2cc2@[192.168.1.199]> from "Zane H. Healy" at
 "Jun 18, 12 10:59:19 am"
Message-ID: <201206182029.q5IKToTn6422690@floodgap.com>

> > Catweasel definitely has a method to connect a 1541 to a PC.best USB 
> > option is still the zoomfloppy (xumfloppy).
[...]
> I'm really pleased with the uIEC from Jim Brain.

Another pleased person with both solutions. I heavily use my ZoomFloppy with
my Power Mac. Jim, I sent you an E-mail about PowerPC OpenCBM binaries but
I haven't heard back from you. I put them up here:

	http://www.floodgap.com/software/ppcp/

For those who think a great use for their "old" Power Mac would be as a
disk imaging workstation, the binaries require 10.4.
	
> I also have the MMC Replay cart with the RR-Net expansion (the new 
> Chameleon 64 looks quite interesting).

I love RRNet. I was originally an ardent fan of the Lantronix UDS-10
solution, and still am as a general way to "bolt on" TCP/IP to a serial
port, but the RRNet is a wonderfully flexible device and environments
like KipperBASIC make it a joy to program.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes? -- Groucho Marx ---------


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 18 15:41:30 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:41:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: looking for Apollo systems and parts,
 and to interface w/other Apollo groupies
Message-ID: <1340052090.51892.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

There was a man in Kansas IIRC who had a bunch of Apollo stuff. I imagine it's long gone. If still available, please send me a private. I likely will be in that area w/i a month God willing. Never know what tomorrow will bring though.

?Come on Apollo gropies, I know you're out there. Let's be heard!


From dgahling at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 18 15:51:58 2012
From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:51:58 -0400
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
In-Reply-To: <20120618114155.O95492@shell.lmi.net>
References: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>, ,
 <p06240826cc050fa498db@[192.168.1.199]>,
 <BLU166-W1371A952863B44BB1F5D1DC9F80@phx.gbl>,
 <p06240828cc05165f2cc2@[192.168.1.199]>, <20120618114155.O95492@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <BLU166-W1B42571030FA764F185A5C9F80@phx.gbl>


the solution you're looking for is zoomfloppy (XUMfloppy)USB connection to a PC, works perfectly
once you have g64/d64 images use d64edit or such for editing, copying files, etcworks wonderfully

> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 11:57:35 -0700
> From: cisin at xenosoft.com
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: C64 temporary PSU
> 
> > At 1:12 PM -0400 6/18/12, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
> > >Zane,
> > >Catweasel definitely has a method to connect a 1541 to a PC.
> 
> "HAS a method" ??!?
> 
> > >best USB option is still the zoomfloppy (xumfloppy).
> THAT may be what he was asking.
> > >Kyroflux just recently did a TON of work on the g64 format,so there
> > >should be something there as well.
> AGAIN, he asked about cabling a C64 drive to a PC, which probably means
> that he wants FILEs, not flux transitions.
> 
> 
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> > I'm still feeling burned after buying a Zorro2 Catweasel in the late
> > 90's.  I don't appreciate being told a product will support 'x'
> > formats when in reality it wouldn't as there were no drivers.
> 
> BTDT.
> "will support"
> There needs to be MUCH greater care to differentiate and disambiguate
> "could" V "would".
> 
> Eventually, somebody will write software that permits that hardware to
> transfer FILEs.
> There are two parts to the problem: software to convert the raw flux
> transition data into sectors, preferably with a calling structure similar
> to INT13h,
> AND
> software to handle the alien file system, which several of us have done
> before.
> 
> ONLY when both parts of the software are functional and successfully
> linked with each other, THEN it could be said that it "supports x",
> without it being a BOGUS stretch from "could support it, IF
> nonexistent software, . . . ".
> 
> And THEN, AND ONLY THEN, it could be an appropriate answer when somebody
> asks how to get their files from x.
> OK, howzbout: "The solution is simply buy or build a CatWeasel,
> DiskFerret, OptionBoard, or other flux transition device, and just write
> those two trivial pieces of software!"
> 
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com
 		 	   		  

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 18 16:05:58 2012
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 23:05:58 +0200
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <1340050050.66472.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FDF6F10.2080209@neurotica.com>
 <1340050050.66472.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY155-ds1082AE6EBAFDC9687EFA2D86F80@phx.gbl>

From: "Chris Tofu" <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 10:07 PM
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft

> On 06/18/2012 01:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>
>>    Dear friends,       Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000
>> SBC for learning?
>>
>>    I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
>
>  You could just opt to poke around inside an Atari ST or early Mac. I had 
> a stack of 68000 books, most donated or thrown out.
>
>  Here's a good question. What's the ideal text for studying 68000 h/w and 
> s/w. Nothing I owned would I consider ideal. Dave's page looks decent, but 
> it would be great if there was a text that describe a rudimentary 68k 
> system
>  OTOH Alex, you could opt to build one of the Radio Electronics featured 
> 68k systems. One was explained in detail, but I think the originator wants 
> big bucks for the firmware and whatnot. There was also a mention of a 
> project in the later 80s, mostly in Europe, where a group designed a 
> system from scratch. It would be nice to get my hooks on those details. 
> I've been wanting to build a vanilla box 68k system for a long time 
> myself.


Just the 68000 is fairly straight-forward in hardware design.
You need EPROM, RAM and a serial interface, and it would work.
There is one thing to consider: will you use 6800-style peripherals,
or 68000-style peripherals? 6821/6850 vs. 68230/68681 (IIRC).
Will you use VPA* or not. DTACK* is the only piece to work on.
Or make all peripherals fast enough so that you do not need DTACK*
I have built (long ago) a 68000 SBC for my StarShip.
I will search and mention the 2 books that help me get it done.
One of them has a complete monitor (source) code listing!

- Henk, PA8PDP
 



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Jun 18 14:49:57 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 12:49:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:

> (and stop top posting)
>
>
> g.
>
> C: Kindly stop telling me how to post. Some replies are sent from my 
> stupid/smart phone. It gives me the option of whether to include the op 
> or not. Not where to place the text...
>
> ?It's a free country after all
>

Hey, it's not my fault you use devices that are unsuited to the task 
you're asking them to perform.

How do you know it's a free country?  I could be from outer Quebecistan 
where they send out intercontinental meerkats with bombs strapped to them 
in order to violently discourage top posting.

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Jun 18 16:15:50 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 17:15:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201206182115.RAA25415@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> (and stop top posting)

> C: Kindly stop telling me how to post.  Some replies are sent from my
> stupid/smart phone.  It gives me the option of whether to include the
> op or not.  Not where to place the text...

You don't have to use it.  I certainly wouldn't put up with a mail
client that badly broken.

>?It's a free country after all

This is a mailing list, not a country.  As such, it is basically a
dictatorship, with our listadmin(s) as dictator(s).  (Benevolent
dictator(s), both in the case of this list and, in my experience, other
lists in general, but still.  Substantially less evil than
physical-world dictatorships in that it is far easier for us, the
populace, to leave if we don't like it, which is one of the major
things that keeps the dictatorship benevolent.)

Subject to that, you may of course continue to top-post (and no-trim,
which seems to go with top-posting) if you like.  But we (FWVO "we")
are equally free to ignore, either mechanically or manually, your mail
in response.  I certainly know that when I see a top-posted (and,
usually, untrimmed) message, it has to be significantly more
interesting to get me to read it and/or respond to it, relative to one
that uses conventional quoting, trims quotes for relevance, etc.

The same is true of various other offenses against readbility -
paragraph-length lines, misspellings, grammatical errors,
unconventional quoting styles, etc: they raise the level of
interestingness, to coin a word, required to get me to read and/or
respond to a message.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 18 16:37:53 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:37:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <1340055473.63221.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

From: Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com>


Hey, it's not my fault you use devices that are unsuited to the task you're asking them to perform.

C: It is your fault when you proceed to complain like a big fat whiney baby. That part is your fault.

??? And it's all about your opinion. Please stop wasting bandwidth. I'll post how I see fit (or how my phone does).

How do you know it's a free country?? I could be from outer Quebecistan where they send out intercontinental meerkats with bombs strapped to them in order to violently discourage top posting.

C: And that part is your problem also. Besides "they" performing acts of breathless animal cruelty.

??? Why piss and moan over nothing. Just deal w/it, or don't read my posts. You do have that option.


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 18 16:40:49 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:40:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <201206182115.RAA25415@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <201206182115.RAA25415@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <1340055649.64001.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>





________________________________
 From: Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org>

You don't have to use it.? I certainly wouldn't put up with a mail
client that badly broken.

C: And yet one more big fat whiney baby. Who else would like to whine a bit?

>?It's a free country after all

This is a mailing list, not a country.? As such, it is basically a
dictatorship, with our listadmin(s) as dictator(s).? (Benevolent
dictator(s), both in the case of this list and, in my experience, other
lists in general, but still.? Substantially less evil than
physical-world dictatorships in that it is far easier for us, the
populace, to leave if we don't like it, which is one of the major
things that keeps the dictatorship benevolent.)

C: All dictatorships and Canada are evil. 

??? Funny Jay has never chided me for the way I post. The format anyway...

Subject to that, you may of course continue to top-post (and no-trim,
which seems to go with top-posting) if you like.? But we (FWVO "we")
are equally free to ignore, either mechanically or manually, your mail
in response.? I certainly know that when I see a top-posted (and,
usually, untrimmed) message, it has to be significantly more
interesting to get me to read it and/or respond to it, relative to one
that uses conventional quoting, trims quotes for relevance, etc.

C: Please! Don't read them. Then I won't have to read much less reply to your whining!

The same is true of various other offenses against readbility -
paragraph-length lines, misspellings, grammatical errors,
unconventional quoting styles, etc: they raise the level of
interestingness, to coin a word, required to get me to read and/or
respond to a message.

C: It's all just whiney nursery school drama to me.

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Jun 18 16:53:32 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 17:53:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <201206182153.RAA26290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> How do you know it's a free country?  I could be from outer
> Quebecistan where they send out intercontinental meerkats with bombs
> strapped to them in order to violently discourage top posting.

I think you're confusing places here.  When Outer Quebecistan sends out
the intercontinental meerkats, it's usually against people who post in
langues autre que le joual.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 16:56:13 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:56:13 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FDF89F7.1090107@gmail.com>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <4FDF89F7.1090107@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+rELaxfPma+rg_kdifiDUZNihH1Ns_dqDFGqDAcbcVdw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 1:05 PM, mc68010 <mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> These are really cool if you can find one
> http://www.easy68k.com/paulrsm/mecb/mecb.htm

I have a couple of those, along with a copy of this book to go along with them:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0138121818/
68000 Microcomputer Experiments: Using the Motorola Educational Computer Board


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Jun 18 16:56:19 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 17:56:19 -0400
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <4FDF8A9B.8060107@hack.net>
References: <20120618105530.9a4f1a4b2a45238f732670fb1ee2460e.1f237d5fc9.wbe@email16.secureserver.net>
 <4FDF6EC0.7040700@neurotica.com> <4FDF8A9B.8060107@hack.net>
Message-ID: <4FDFA403.1040908@neurotica.com>

On 06/18/2012 04:07 PM, Ryan K. Brooks wrote:
>>> the sun-3 is 68020 based.  I can't remember if there were any 68030
>>> based sun's.
>>    The Sun 3/80 and 3/400 are 68030-based machines.  The SunOS kernel
>> architecture name is "sun3x".
>
> Did all the 68k suns have custom MMUs, or did any use Motorola?

  All custom, implemented in SSI, PALs, and/or gate arrays.

               -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Jun 18 16:59:31 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 17:59:31 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <1340050852.73119.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FDF6F10.2080209@neurotica.com>
 <1340050852.73119.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FDFA4C3.4060006@neurotica.com>

On 06/18/2012 04:20 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> I found this design a few years ago and liked it, but haven't built 
> one yet:
> 
> http://www.kmitl.ac.th/~kswichit/68k/68k.html
> 
> C: I like it Dave. I genuinely do. I may be unorthodox in my
> approaches to things. It's not that I don't like sbc's, love them in
> fact (God how I'd love to either research or just get to look at
> someone else's research regarding the myriads of 80186 sbc's that
> were created in the 80s). But as far as learning computers, I don't
> necessarily see the benefit of a sbc (much less an sdk w/a keypad),
> as opposed to an established system.

  That all depends on what you want to learn.  If you want to learn how
computers actually *work*, which (IMNSHO) is a requirement for being
able to program worth a damn, this is a good route...as long as it's not
just treated like an appliance.

  An "established system" (by which I think you mean "a commercial
packaged/closed system") just plain denies a person that option, unless
you go dig up the schematics for it.

  And in that case, say for an Atari or an Amiga, there are so many
complex custom chips in there, a beginner isn't going to get much of an
education out of it.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Jun 18 15:39:46 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:39:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <1340055473.63221.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340055473.63221.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181330460.22023@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:

> From: Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com>
>
>
> Hey, it's not my fault you use devices that are unsuited to the task 
> you're asking them to perform.
>
> C: It is your fault when you proceed to complain like a big fat whiney 
> baby. That part is your fault.
>
*snickers*  That's just too awesome for words.  You going to wag your 
naughty bits at me now?  Oh, I know!  "I know you are, but what am I!?!?!"
*rofl*

> ??? And it's all about your opinion. Please stop wasting bandwidth. I'll 
> post how I see fit (or how my phone does).
>
Hey, if you want to look your posts to look like the Ongoing Adventures of 
Word Salad Man, be my guest.

> How do you know it's a free country?? I could be from outer Quebecistan 
> where they send out intercontinental meerkats with bombs strapped to 
> them in order to violently discourage top posting.
>
> C: And that part is your problem also. Besides "they" performing acts of 
> breathless animal cruelty.
>
Oh I don't know, those meerkats can be pretty extreme at times, wanting to 
start their own Meerkat Caliphate and all.  If you think a badger is mean, 
try a meerkat with 10lbs of ANFO strapped to his back.  "Pissed off" 
doesn't describe the fury in that little box, let me tell you.

> ??? Why piss and moan over nothing. Just deal w/it, or don't read my 
> posts. You do have that option.
>

Ignoring stupid is _always_ optional, unless of course you've got some 
spare time and a big paddle to stir the kettle of crazy with.  Then it's 
all pitchforks and popcorn. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun 18 17:14:04 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 15:14:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
In-Reply-To: <BLU166-W1B42571030FA764F185A5C9F80@phx.gbl>
References: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>, ,
 <p06240826cc050fa498db@[192.168.1.199]>, 
 <BLU166-W1371A952863B44BB1F5D1DC9F80@phx.gbl>,
 <p06240828cc05165f2cc2@[192.168.1.199]>, 
 <20120618114155.O95492@shell.lmi.net>
 <BLU166-W1B42571030FA764F185A5C9F80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20120618144115.Y95492@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
> the solution you're looking for is zoomfloppy (XUMfloppy)USB connection
> to a PC, works perfectly once you have g64/d64 images use d64edit or
> such for editing, copying files, etcworks wonderfully

I think that that is EXACTLY what the original poster is looking for!


For MYSELF, I'm content with an MSD-SD2 (third party drive for Commodore
with GPIB) connected to a GPIB (IEEE-488)  card in a 5160.
But I haven't been active with any of THAT lately.



I'm too lazy and overwhelmed right now (health issues and work), but
eventually I'd like to get around to doing an INT13h-like"sector" driver
for flux transition devices.  But then I wouldn't have any excuse not to
resume expansion of XenoCopy, . . .


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 17:48:24 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:48:24 -0400
Subject: Synchronous Modem Eliminators
Message-ID: <CAALmimkd5+=UJZc24FrH6=Ao8KjQ7QkOt_yKijpLnk8fGa+WAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, All,

I've been discussing 1980s and 1990s IBM gear with a list member via
PM, and the need for modem eliminators has come up as a topic.  I have
worked with a variety of older Black Box units back in the days when I
used Bisync comms every day, but looking around now, I see no
EIA/RS-232 units for sale on eBay and other places - it's all V.35 (at
multi-megabit speeds for CSU/DSU) and RS-422 and RS-530 (RS-422 on a
DB25).  25 years ago, it was common to want to attach sync devices
between 1200 and 56Kbps via RS-232 but not so much any more.

It's not hard to make a Sync Modem Eliminator - in its simplest form,
it's going to look at lot like an async null modem cable/box, but with
active clocking (normally generated by the DCE) on pins 15 and 17 on
both DB25s.  There used to be a lot of baud rate generator chips, but
for a small range of speeds, a properly-sized crystal on a 4060
clock/counter chip, perhaps a D-flip-flop used as a divide-by-2 (to
square up the waveform and to shift which baud rate is "missing"
because one stage of the 4060 chain is not brought out to a pin), and
a 1488 to drive the clock to the DTE hardware.

Where it starts to get complicated is that commercial RS-232 SMEs also
had options to strap carrier detect and RTS/CTS, optional CTS
turnaround delays and more.  There were lots of jumpers and
configuration often took some experimentation for a new set of
devices.

My question is, for those reading this that still use sync serial, is
it "worth" designing and sharing a simple SME that might not have all
the bells and whistles and user-configurable options, or is it "worth"
just keeping the design very simple (3 chips plus a multi-voltage PSU,
or multiple chips and a single-voltage PSU) and acknowledging that it
will only work for 80% of the cases out there?

It is, of course, easier to purchase than build, and there were once
large quantities of the "right device", but I think as comms speeds
have risen, not that many of these low-speed devices have survived,
and certainly nobody is attempting to empty a warehouse of them at the
moment.

It's also entirely possible that the demand for synchronous serial
comms over RS-232 lines is so small that the entire roster of
interested parties would fit on a very short bus, so please chime in
if you still use sync serial below 64kbps for anything.  I'm curious
to know who does and what devices they have.

-ethan


From f.helyanvy at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 17:57:56 2012
From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:57:56 +0200
Subject: looking for Apollo systems and parts, and to interface w/other
 Apollo groupies
In-Reply-To: <1340052090.51892.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1340052090.51892.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAEkdPRaSgNo5WrSYiCMP+5KmAczHvofF01-Gq2+HF=Z=GmLiRA@mail.gmail.com>

2012/6/18 Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com>

> There was a man in Kansas IIRC who had a bunch of Apollo stuff. I imagine
> it's long gone. If still available, please send me a private. I likely will
> be in that area w/i a month God willing. Never know what tomorrow will
> bring though.
>
>  Come on Apollo gropies, I know you're out there. Let's be heard!
>
>
Funny, because having an Apollo workstation is on my wishlist ;)
http://ola.earfolds.com/computers/


-- 
Ola Hughson


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun 18 18:08:36 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 16:08:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <201206182153.RAA26290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <201206182153.RAA26290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20120618160543.E4131@shell.lmi.net>

> > How do you know it's a free country?  I could be from outer
> > Quebecistan where they send out intercontinental meerkats with bombs
> > strapped to them in order to violently discourage top posting.
On Mon, 18 Jun 2012, Mouse wrote:
> I think you're confusing places here.  When Outer Quebecistan sends out
> the intercontinental meerkats, it's usually against people who post in
> langues autre que le joual.

oui

But ANYBODY with their own F15 collection that threatens aerial
bombardment can get away with such misteaks.


From brain at jbrain.com  Mon Jun 18 18:19:45 2012
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:19:45 -0500
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
In-Reply-To: <p06240828cc05165f2cc2@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>,
 <p06240826cc050fa498db@[192.168.1.199]>
 <BLU166-W1371A952863B44BB1F5D1DC9F80@phx.gbl>
 <p06240828cc05165f2cc2@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <4FDFB791.4010207@jbrain.com>

On 6/18/2012 12:59 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> At 1:12 PM -0400 6/18/12, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
>> Zane,
>> Catweasel definitely has a method to connect a 1541 to a PC.best USB 
>> option is still the zoomfloppy (xumfloppy).
>> Kyroflux just recently did a TON of work on the g64 format,so there 
>> should be something there as well.
>
> I'm still feeling burned after buying a Zorro2 Catweasel in the late 
> 90's.  I don't appreciate being told a product will support 'x' 
> formats when in reality it wouldn't as there were no drivers.

I'm happy to refund your purchase 100% if you're not satisfied with the 
ZoomFloppy.

I understand your concern, though.


From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 18 18:28:19 2012
From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:28:19 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <00cd01cd4daa$0d51b4d0$27f51e70$@YAHOO.COM>

Hi,
At the N8VEM home brew computing project there is the ECB mini-68000.
Several builders have these systems and they are inexpensive and easy to
build.  There are PCBs still available.

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=ECB%20mini-M680
00

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

PS, the S-100 68K CPU board will be coming out later this summer as well
after three rounds of prototypes.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
> On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas
> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 1:18 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
> 
> 
>     Dear friends,
> 
>     Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC for learning?
> 
>     I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
> 
>     Thanks
>     Alexandre
> 
> ---
> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br



From IanK at vulcan.com  Mon Jun 18 19:11:02 2012
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:11:02 +0000
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <201206182153.RAA26290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <CC051165.12CE1%iank@vulcan.com>

On 6/18/12 2:53 PM, "Mouse" <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:

>> How do you know it's a free country?  I could be from outer
>> Quebecistan where they send out intercontinental meerkats with bombs
>> strapped to them in order to violently discourage top posting.


Oh ye gods and little fishes, not THIS rant again.  MID-posting -- Ian


>
>I think you're confusing places here.  When Outer Quebecistan sends out
>the intercontinental meerkats, it's usually against people who post in
>langues autre que le joual.
>
>/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
>\ / Ribbon Campaign
> X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
>/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>
>





From ryan at hack.net  Mon Jun 18 19:30:57 2012
From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:30:57 -0500
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+rELaxfPma+rg_kdifiDUZNihH1Ns_dqDFGqDAcbcVdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FDF89F7.1090107@gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOw+rELaxfPma+rg_kdifiDUZNihH1Ns_dqDFGqDAcbcVdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1A76D68A-1A50-49A9-A3CA-7513924E0C8C@hack.net>

The Art of Electronics (Horowiz and Hill) has a 68008 design with lots of explanation, I recall it being a very good intro to 68k stuff.   And it's a good book anyway.

-Ryan

On Jun 18, 2012, at 4:56 PM, Glen Slick wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 1:05 PM, mc68010 <mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> These are really cool if you can find one
>> http://www.easy68k.com/paulrsm/mecb/mecb.htm
> 
> I have a couple of those, along with a copy of this book to go along with them:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0138121818/
> 68000 Microcomputer Experiments: Using the Motorola Educational Computer Board




From FJGJR1 at aol.com  Mon Jun 18 19:34:08 2012
From: FJGJR1 at aol.com (FJGJR1 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 20:34:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Wanted: Original Kaypro 16 floppies
Message-ID: <188f.4bd9f8f9.3d112300@aol.com>

Post on the _www.vintage-computer.com_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com)  
site - that  may be better & do a search for others who have posted on this 
topic.
 
Good luck !
 
Frank
 
 
In a message dated 6/18/2012 9:55:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
james at slor.net writes:

Thought  I'd try one more time.  Anyone?

-----Original  Message-----
From: James [mailto:james at slor.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, June  05, 2012 12:41 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Wanted: Original  Kaypro 16 floppies

I've been looking for an original floppy disk set  for my Kaypro 16 (not 
16/2
or any others) for a while now.  Anyone on  this list have a set to part
with?  Or, worst case, anyone have a set  they could copy/image for  me?

Thanks!
James




From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 20:03:29 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:03:29 -0400
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
In-Reply-To: <20120618144115.Y95492@shell.lmi.net>
References: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com> <p06240826cc050fa498db@192.168.1.199>
 <BLU166-W1371A952863B44BB1F5D1DC9F80@phx.gbl>
 <p06240828cc05165f2cc2@192.168.1.199>
 <20120618114155.O95492@shell.lmi.net>
 <BLU166-W1B42571030FA764F185A5C9F80@phx.gbl>
 <20120618144115.Y95492@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkZ0zR_SyyaKVVHhLen-bfZdF0oGAmaAtTOedfmjPH5rQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 6:14 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> For MYSELF, I'm content with an MSD-SD2 (third party drive for Commodore
> with GPIB) connected to a GPIB (IEEE-488) ?card in a 5160.
> But I haven't been active with any of THAT lately.

That sounds interesting.  What are you using for software?

-ethan



From dgahling at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 18 20:07:30 2012
From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:07:30 -0400
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
In-Reply-To: <4FDFB791.4010207@jbrain.com>
References: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>, ,
 <p06240826cc050fa498db@[192.168.1.199]>,
 <BLU166-W1371A952863B44BB1F5D1DC9F80@phx.gbl>,
 <p06240828cc05165f2cc2@[192.168.1.199]>, <4FDFB791.4010207@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <BLU166-W28D9DB3B1F807DC186C274C9FF0@phx.gbl>


Jim, this product works so well, I'D refund his money if he's not happy.
:)
Dan.

> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:19:45 -0500
> From: brain at jbrain.com
> To: 
> Subject: Re: C64 temporary PSU
> 
> On 6/18/2012 12:59 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> > At 1:12 PM -0400 6/18/12, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
> >> Zane,
> >> Catweasel definitely has a method to connect a 1541 to a PC.best USB 
> >> option is still the zoomfloppy (xumfloppy).
> >> Kyroflux just recently did a TON of work on the g64 format,so there 
> >> should be something there as well.
> >
> > I'm still feeling burned after buying a Zorro2 Catweasel in the late 
> > 90's.  I don't appreciate being told a product will support 'x' 
> > formats when in reality it wouldn't as there were no drivers.
> 
> I'm happy to refund your purchase 100% if you're not satisfied with the 
> ZoomFloppy.
> 
> I understand your concern, though.
 		 	   		  

From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Jun 18 20:14:26 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:14:26 -0400
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pYJXS8X-xZ7o5qFRC=Dk9RTF9BF9wDOTNe=soeBxjr3Uw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120618105530.9a4f1a4b2a45238f732670fb1ee2460e.1f237d5fc9.wbe@email16.secureserver.net>
 <CAGN_6pYJXS8X-xZ7o5qFRC=Dk9RTF9BF9wDOTNe=soeBxjr3Uw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDFD272.7080100@neurotica.com>

On 06/18/2012 02:29 PM, David Brownlee wrote:
>> the sun-3 is 68020 based.  I can't remember if there were any 68030
>> based sun's.
> 
> That would be the sun3x. Came in the same case as a spare :)

  There's also the 3/400, which is a dual-width 9U VME board.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From ragooman at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 20:41:15 2012
From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:41:15 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <CADo=F9FEr8qof0Kr-PxAMwd1NcoVGW7N+T81YchTiWQNKae+Qw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas <
pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>   Dear friends,       Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC
> for learning?
>
>   I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
>

A very popular book to read
68000 Microcomputer Systems: Designing, and Troubleshooting, Alan Wilcox,
Prentice Hall, 1987, ISBN 0138113998

Another source of simple 68K SBC's to experiment with is an arcade board by
Bally Midway, part#A080-91864-C000. I use two of them here. It has 128KW
Eprom space, up to 4KW Ram space. They are inexpensive, especially if you
ask on Klov.com - the largest resource of arcade info. These were used as
sound boards - so it also includes an onboard DAC and speaker amp, among
the typical peripherals, 6821. You still need to add a serial port for a
console.


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Jun 18 21:59:38 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:59:38 -0700
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
In-Reply-To: <4FDFB791.4010207@jbrain.com>
References: <4FDF4B46.2020502@gmail.com>,
 <p06240826cc050fa498db@[192.168.1.199]>
 <BLU166-W1371A952863B44BB1F5D1DC9F80@phx.gbl>
 <p06240828cc05165f2cc2@[192.168.1.199]> <4FDFB791.4010207@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <p0624082ccc05981b9465@[192.168.1.199]>

At 6:19 PM -0500 6/18/12, Jim Brain wrote:
>On 6/18/2012 12:59 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>>At 1:12 PM -0400 6/18/12, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
>>>Zane,
>>>Catweasel definitely has a method to connect a 1541 to a PC.best 
>>>USB option is still the zoomfloppy (xumfloppy).
>>>Kyroflux just recently did a TON of work on the g64 format,so 
>>>there should be something there as well.
>>
>>I'm still feeling burned after buying a Zorro2 Catweasel in the 
>>late 90's.  I don't appreciate being told a product will support 
>>'x' formats when in reality it wouldn't as there were no drivers.
>
>I'm happy to refund your purchase 100% if you're not satisfied with 
>the ZoomFloppy.
>
>I understand your concern, though.

Jim,
Just to note, I have faith in your solutions.  I was simply 
commenting on Catweasel.  I didn't even know about Zoomfloppy, though 
in my case, I think I can just use uIEC (which I've been very happy 
with), or MMC Replay.

My problem is that Jens Schoenfeld seems to be a bit too much into 
"marketing hype", which isn't to say that he hasn't come out with 
some great stuff (as he has some great stuff), just that I'm paranoid 
when he's involved.

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 23:15:08 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:15:08 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <CADo=F9FEr8qof0Kr-PxAMwd1NcoVGW7N+T81YchTiWQNKae+Qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <CADo=F9FEr8qof0Kr-PxAMwd1NcoVGW7N+T81YchTiWQNKae+Qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimncVZ6bUsKy_PZNvSY42zsLKeo4M3kmeH5F+0=EAXcgsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 9:41 PM, Dan Roganti <ragooman at gmail.com> wrote:
> A very popular book to read
> 68000 Microcomputer Systems: Designing, and Troubleshooting, Alan Wilcox,
> Prentice Hall, 1987, ISBN 0138113998

Looks like Mr Alan Wilcox has written several books on the 68000.  I
will be keeping my eye out.

> Another source of simple 68K SBC's to experiment with is an arcade board by
> Bally Midway, part#A080-91864-C000. I use two of them here. It has 128KW
> Eprom space, up to 4KW Ram space. They are inexpensive, especially if you
> ask on Klov.com - the largest resource of arcade info. These were used as
> sound boards - so it also includes an onboard DAC and speaker amp, among
> the typical peripherals, 6821. You still need to add a serial port for a
> console.

Interesting idea.  I just looked at a picture of one... That rather
looked like a PAL in the middle, to the right of the CPU... Probably
the addressing PAL... it might not be too hard to make a daughter card
that plugged into the 6821 socket as well, for access to the bus, etc,
as opposed to sitting in the CPU socket and grabbing the signals first
(like the in-the-socket IDE interfaces for the Amiga 500 did).

Depending on what the 6821 is used for locally, it might also not be
hard to remove it entirely and take advantage of its space and
connectivity with a serial chip (which would still need a little help
in the form of a local crystal, typically).

I'm sure the schematics for that board aren't hard to track down -
that would answer a lot of questions.

-ethan


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Jun 18 23:54:32 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:54:32 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimncVZ6bUsKy_PZNvSY42zsLKeo4M3kmeH5F+0=EAXcgsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>,
 <CADo=F9FEr8qof0Kr-PxAMwd1NcoVGW7N+T81YchTiWQNKae+Qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAALmimncVZ6bUsKy_PZNvSY42zsLKeo4M3kmeH5F+0=EAXcgsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FDFA398.8212.2E74FF6@cclist.sydex.com>

At the expense of getting brickbats hurled in my direction, might I 
suggest one of the Freescale Coldfire development boards (or clones 
thereof).  The Coldfire is basically a 68000 with some of the 
instructions removed and others substituted.  The devkits all have 
USB and lots of interesting goodies.

You've got up-to-date development software to boot.

Learn to program the Coldfire, and the shift to 68K should be mostly 
a matter of dialect.  The basic architecture's the same.

Or, just get an old Atari ST--the operating system's easy 
(essentially a duplicate of MS-DOS in many ways) and there are good 
tools available.

For what it's worth.

--Chuck





From brain at jbrain.com  Tue Jun 19 00:07:00 2012
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:07:00 -0500
Subject: C64 temporary PSU
In-Reply-To: <201206182029.q5IKToTn6422690@floodgap.com>
References: <201206182029.q5IKToTn6422690@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4FE008F4.2000304@jbrain.com>

On 6/18/2012 3:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>>> Catweasel definitely has a method to connect a 1541 to a PC.best USB
>>> option is still the zoomfloppy (xumfloppy).
> [...]
>> I'm really pleased with the uIEC from Jim Brain.
> Another pleased person with both solutions. I heavily use my ZoomFloppy with
> my Power Mac. Jim, I sent you an E-mail about PowerPC OpenCBM binaries but
> I haven't heard back from you. I put them up here:
>
> 	http://www.floodgap.com/software/ppcp/
My apologies.  I made an update to the page to link to your port, but it 
appears it is still in draft.  I'll see if I can fix that this week.

Jim



From emu at e-bbes.com  Tue Jun 19 00:11:47 2012
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 07:11:47 +0200
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FDFA398.8212.2E74FF6@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>,
 <CADo=F9FEr8qof0Kr-PxAMwd1NcoVGW7N+T81YchTiWQNKae+Qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAALmimncVZ6bUsKy_PZNvSY42zsLKeo4M3kmeH5F+0=EAXcgsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDFA398.8212.2E74FF6@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20120619071147.cvhr510s3ogw4wwk@webmail.opentransfer.com>

For a "software only" aproach, try www.easy68k.com,
sombody even had CP/M68k working on it. It is also cool to debug a  
piece of assembler code, until you have real hardware working ...


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 19 00:26:40 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 22:26:40 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FDFA398.8212.2E74FF6@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>, ,
 <CADo=F9FEr8qof0Kr-PxAMwd1NcoVGW7N+T81YchTiWQNKae+Qw@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <CAALmimncVZ6bUsKy_PZNvSY42zsLKeo4M3kmeH5F+0=EAXcgsQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FDFA398.8212.2E74FF6@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W35AED57D3BA152EFF793C9A3FF0@phx.gbl>



Hi
 Ok, I have to through this in as well.
It wouldn't do much for hardware but still fun for software.
Get a Canon Cat. It can be easily expanded to 512K
and even more if your interested in regenerating the EPROMs
code ( such a writing your own printer driver for your
favorite printer ).
 One can use the built in editor to write your code and then
either compile Forth code or assembly.
 One can play with bit mapped graphics ( B/W only ).
One can even fiddle with disk formats.
 It is just not that interesting for fiddleing with hardware.
Most of the interesting stuff is in ASICs.
Dwight
  		 	   		  

From hauke at Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE  Mon Jun 18 14:07:35 2012
From: hauke at Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:07:35 +0200
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
Message-ID: <l03102800cc052bf1e8a0@q840.causeuse.org>

At 12:21 Uhr -0400 18.6.2012, Ray Arachelian wrote:
>Anyone know of a working emulator for a Motorola 68K system that works
>well enough to install either linux/bsd in?

The TME sun[23] emulator <http://people.csail.mit.edu/fredette/tme/> runs
NetBSD and SunOS.

	hauke

--
"It's never straight up and down"     (DEVO)




From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 18 19:52:03 2012
From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:52:03 +1200
Subject: Load Testing PDP11 Power Supplies
In-Reply-To: <CADeD5WEE5ON7b2L+-reFtnAebJZCCa3OYiCSxu406Ad9BjZ=bA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADeD5WEE5ON7b2L+-reFtnAebJZCCa3OYiCSxu406Ad9BjZ=bA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADeD5WHiB99OhmhtCXOVjtpumgTE6OMJZ=_D4nM5UZzUCJMy4w@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Tony and Rob for the comments.  I have a good selection of high
wattage wire wound resistors so will use these to load test the supplies.

Started on the H7441 5VDC regulators by removing the 24000uf capacitors and
tried charging them at 40v with 5ma.  One charges up fine... the other
won't and the multimeter suggests an internal short.  Not sure if this
failed in service or from sitting around.

Unfortunately I only have the two H7441 modules that came with the machine
so will need to go hunting for replacements.  New ones can be had for about
NZ$60 from RS Components here in New Zealand but any recommendations on
alternative sources would be appreciated.

Regards

Andrew


From jimpdavis at gorge.net  Mon Jun 18 23:31:03 2012
From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:31:03 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <4FE00087.4060703@gorge.net>

Hello Alexandre,

I have a LMI cross meta-compiler for the 68K I used for a project about 
25 years ago.
If you find a board you want to use, Send me the I/O map
I can send you something that will boot into forthand will give you full 
access to the system.
You can have the source and modify the system at your leisure.
Anything with 8K of  ROM, 8K of RAM and any I/O can be made to work 
quite easily.
Cheers,
Jim Davis.

Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>
>    Dear friends,       Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 
> SBC for learning?
>
>    I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
>
>    Thanks
>    Alexandre
>
> ---
> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
>



From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com  Tue Jun 19 00:40:50 2012
From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce)
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 23:40:50 -0600
Subject: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power connector
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5Svoqnnojz4rh25a6LhdEL2h8GYmKSc8HfspYGE7UxSqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+0-H5ShwqAu3uJ5S1Txw=8TQx-q8PqEaMk0zjyVFxbyn_XJNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDCF30A.5080307@Wild-Hare.com>
 <CA+0-H5RzwwWgifHm+Szgbr0BiwuY+C1-fh-WuDBfJGUgbq-NZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FDD06A9.4060809@Wild-Hare.com> <000001cd4c54$b9df5ec0$2d9e1c40$@gmail.com>
 <4FDE0883.6020601@Wild-Hare.com> <002601cd4ca9$5a4619e0$0ed24da0$@gmail.com>
 <4FDEB89A.5070205@Wild-Hare.com> <005301cd4d16$6a8bf9b0$3fa3ed10$@gmail.com>
 <4FDF606A.9080503@Wild-Hare.com>
 <CA+0-H5Svoqnnojz4rh25a6LhdEL2h8GYmKSc8HfspYGE7UxSqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE010E2.7030700@Wild-Hare.com>

G'day Camiel -

The powerup microcode does a quick memory check, and the accumulator values

     - 127252 125252 076041 000701

indicate that a '125252' was written to a 1K memory page whose last 10 
bits were 041 (octal) but the data read back was '127252'.

The memory location '076041' indicates that the memory map was being 
used to map a memory address using the "special address translation" 
page of '076000'.  This does not necessarily mean that location 000041 
was bad, but some memory location whose last 10 address bits is 041. 
(The special map page 31 (base address of 076000 when shifted left 10 
bits) allows a programmer to address any physical memory location in 256 
KW from within the logical address space of 32 KW.)

AC3's '000701' value is just an internal return location value that does 
not point to any useful (to us) data (drat!).

FWI, the Nova 4X and S/140 power-on code does a

- test of memory pre-fetch processor
- test of MAP memory
- test of lower 16 KW memory

The error recovery for the 16 KW memory test is a "jmp ." (jump to self) 
instruction which is why the "K" of the "OK" message never gets sent to 
the console.

Per Chapter 5 suggestions, does the memory board work in any of the 
board slots, and does the memory bus terminator exist on the backplane?


Yes, sometimes FEs would "obfuscate" what boards were placed in client 
machines during repairs so the client did not realize what was done to 
repair the system - that is, to use Eclipse parts in a Nova.  Othertimes 
the labels just fell off the board.  I'm sure there are many, many other 
humorous possibilities.

The microcode PROM chips were indeed soldered on the boards, but there 
was an underground business in the early 1980s unsoldering Nova 4/X 
PROMs and substituting "non-approved(!)" Eclipse S/140 PROMs.

Without looking at the schematics, it would seem likely that I/O 
buffer/driver chips you mentioned (i.e.74LS38, S241, 451) would be 
subject to replacement over the years.


Bruce





On 6/18/2012 11:58 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
> Hi Bruce,
>
> I think I found the memory problem:
>
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Bruce <Bruce at wild-hare.com> wrote:
>> I'm confused.  The VC (Virtual Console) works okay when you hit the reset
>> button, but when the computer is powered on you do not get the
>>
>> OK
>> !000000
>> !
>>
>> indication?  (...per Chapter 5, Computer Self-Test, page 23)
>
> Correct. On power on I only get an "O". VC does not respond at that
> point. Once I hit the reset button, I do get
>
> O000000
> !
>
> The VC then responds as expected.
>
> If I remove the memory board, the behavior is exactly the same, except
> that every memory address reads back as 177777 of course.
>
> Accumulators with and without memory board:
>
> without - 177777 125252 076000 000701
> with    - 127252 125252 076041 000701
>
> This lead me to suspect that the memory at word 41 was incorrect.
> Memory locations 0 - 40 were 052525, 41, 45, 51 were 127252, 42 and up
> (except those with the lowest bits being 01) were 125252.
>
> So, it looks like the entire memory is written with 125252
> (1010101010101010) first, then each word is first read, then written
> with 052525 (0101010101010101).
>
> Sure enough, when I wrote 125252 to word 41, it looked fine, but when
> I wrote 052525 to word 1, it changed word 41 to 127252!
>
> So, it looks like the memory chip that controls bit 10 for addresses
> ending in 01 (binary) is at fault here. I'm going to do some wire
> tracing to find out which chip this might be...
>
>> The part numbers (005-xxxxxx-yy) are important when trying to determine the
>> exact computer configuration as the same board may have different part
>> numbers depending upon what chips are stuff onto the board (i.e. memory
>> boards).  If no 005 part number exists anywhere on the board the board
>> artwork 107-xxxxxx-yy number may be used in extreme situations.  I do not
>> know of a 107 to 005 cross reference table but I could look at various
>> in-house boards if needed.
>
> Like I wrote, the CPU and Memory board only have part of the label
> left, it looks like the actual part numbers have carefully been
> clipped off. All that remains are the "E" numbers, which I presume are
> a serial number. The numbers on the boards themselves read:
>
> CPU: 10700094903/0 07 (last 07 is printed, rest of the number is copper)
> Mem: 10700081303/03 (entire number copper)
>
>> Also, the S/140, Nova 4/S, Nova 4/X could interchange boards (CPU and
>> memory), so this system might not be a "true" Nova 4 - Eclipse boards could
>> be used rather than Nova boards if a Field Engineering guy didn't have the
>> "correct" parts.  Nova/Eclipse CPU boards could be interchanged if the four
>> (4) PROM "personality" chips were swapped.
>
> Could that be the reason the part numbers have been removed?
>
> Although I don't think it's likely; all the PROM chips are soldered on
> (no sockets), so swapping wouldn't be all that easy. Plus, the
> soldering on the PROM chips looks like it's untouched.
>
> There are a few other areas of the main board that do show evidence of
> repairs; the following parts seem to have been replaced at some point
> (with approx. board locations):
>
> - One of the IDM2901A bit slices has been replaced with an AM2901BDC @ AE11
> - 74S241 @ X13
> - 74LS38 @ E45
> - 4 75451 drivers around E22
>
> Thanks,
>
> Camiel.
>



From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 01:17:30 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 08:17:30 +0200
Subject: Nova 4 memory problems (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power
 connector)
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5Q16tG9SBdZts0J+W0RxFRHhksQDekxhqrYU6+i1QhuAw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 7:58 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven
<iamcamiel at gmail.com> wrote:
> So, it looks like the memory chip that controls bit 10 for addresses
> ending in 01 (binary) is at fault here. I'm going to do some wire
> tracing to find out which chip this might be...

Did my wire tracing, came up with the following picture of the board
(use a fixed-width font to view):

+-----------------------------------------------------------+
|          15  14              bit                   1   0  |
|         +u+ +u+ ................................. +u+ +u+ |
|         | | | |                                   | | | | |
| 0xxxx00 | | | |                                   | | | | |
|         +-+ +-+                                   +-+ +-+ |
|                                                           |
|         +u+ +u+                                   +u+ +u+ |
|         | | | |                                   | | | | |
| 1xxxx00 | | | |                                   | | | | |
|         +-+ +-+                                   +-+ +-+ |
|                                                           |
|         :                                               : |
|         :                                               : |
| word    :                                               : |
|         :                                               : |
|         :                                               : |
|                                                           |
|         +u+ +u+                                   +u+ +u+ |
|         | | | |                                   | | | | |
| 0xxxx11 | | | |                                   | | | | |
|         +-+ +-+                                   +-+ +-+ |
|                                                           |
|         +u+ +u+                                   +u+ +u+ |
|         | | | |                                   | | | | |
| 1xxxx11 | | | |                                   | | | | |
|         +-+ +-+ ................................. +-+ +-+ |
|                                                           |
|                                                           |
|                                                           |
+-+                         +---+                         +-+
  +-------------------------+   +-------------------------+

So at least I can now trace an error bit to a chip. However, I must
have damaged something in the process (believe me, I've been careful),
because for all addresses ending in xxxx10, the data reads back as
000000 now. I hooked up my logic analyzer, and found that data dis
written to the memory chips in this row correctly. The data read from
these chips is also correct. The data is then fed to a few 74153
4-to-1 MUXes. I checked the selection inputs to the MUXes, and these
are wrong for row 2. Now I need to see where those inputs came from...

To be continued...

Camiel.


From spedraja at ono.com  Tue Jun 19 01:31:36 2012
From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 08:31:36 +0200
Subject: Synchronous Modem Eliminators
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkd5+=UJZc24FrH6=Ao8KjQ7QkOt_yKijpLnk8fGa+WAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkd5+=UJZc24FrH6=Ao8KjQ7QkOt_yKijpLnk8fGa+WAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACytpF-hS1c89UsvPG-Lt+iGYWDdMQRpsUC+_zf+_P44Jj=fGg@mail.gmail.com>

*sigh*

When I've read this lines I couldn't avoid to think in the PILE of modem
eliminators which went to the dumpster here (in my Company) four years ago.

Regards
SPc.


2012/6/19 Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>

> Hi, All,
>
> I've been discussing 1980s and 1990s IBM gear with a list member via
> PM, and the need for modem eliminators has come up as a topic.  I have
> worked with a variety of older Black Box units back in the days when I
> used Bisync comms every day, but looking around now, I see no
> EIA/RS-232 units for sale on eBay and other places - it's all V.35 (at
> multi-megabit speeds for CSU/DSU) and RS-422 and RS-530 (RS-422 on a
> DB25).  25 years ago, it was common to want to attach sync devices
> between 1200 and 56Kbps via RS-232 but not so much any more.
>
> It's not hard to make a Sync Modem Eliminator - in its simplest form,
> it's going to look at lot like an async null modem cable/box, but with
> active clocking (normally generated by the DCE) on pins 15 and 17 on
> both DB25s.  There used to be a lot of baud rate generator chips, but
> for a small range of speeds, a properly-sized crystal on a 4060
> clock/counter chip, perhaps a D-flip-flop used as a divide-by-2 (to
> square up the waveform and to shift which baud rate is "missing"
> because one stage of the 4060 chain is not brought out to a pin), and
> a 1488 to drive the clock to the DTE hardware.
>
> Where it starts to get complicated is that commercial RS-232 SMEs also
> had options to strap carrier detect and RTS/CTS, optional CTS
> turnaround delays and more.  There were lots of jumpers and
> configuration often took some experimentation for a new set of
> devices.
>
> My question is, for those reading this that still use sync serial, is
> it "worth" designing and sharing a simple SME that might not have all
> the bells and whistles and user-configurable options, or is it "worth"
> just keeping the design very simple (3 chips plus a multi-voltage PSU,
> or multiple chips and a single-voltage PSU) and acknowledging that it
> will only work for 80% of the cases out there?
>
> It is, of course, easier to purchase than build, and there were once
> large quantities of the "right device", but I think as comms speeds
> have risen, not that many of these low-speed devices have survived,
> and certainly nobody is attempting to empty a warehouse of them at the
> moment.
>
> It's also entirely possible that the demand for synchronous serial
> comms over RS-232 lines is so small that the entire roster of
> interested parties would fit on a very short bus, so please chime in
> if you still use sync serial below 64kbps for anything.  I'm curious
> to know who does and what devices they have.
>
> -ethan
>


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 02:49:15 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 08:49:15 +0100
Subject: Synchronous Modem Eliminators
In-Reply-To: <CACytpF-hS1c89UsvPG-Lt+iGYWDdMQRpsUC+_zf+_P44Jj=fGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkd5+=UJZc24FrH6=Ao8KjQ7QkOt_yKijpLnk8fGa+WAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACytpF-hS1c89UsvPG-Lt+iGYWDdMQRpsUC+_zf+_P44Jj=fGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE02EFB.1020404@gmail.com>

On 19/06/2012 07:31, SPC wrote:
> *sigh*
>
> It's also entirely possible that the demand for synchronous serial
> comms over RS-232 lines is so small that the entire roster of
> interested parties would fit on a very short bus, so please chime in
> if you still use sync serial below 64kbps for anything.  I'm curious
> to know who does and what devices they have.
I think that the "demand" could be there, but devices to implement are 
not. So I end up using simulated sync over TCP/IP 99.99% of the time. 
The only (well as far as I know) syncronous capable device(s) I have are 
a couple of IBM 3174 screens. What I don't have is any way to connect 
them to my Windows PC, Linux PC or SUN Solaris box. Even if I had some 
sync cards then I would still be left with the issues of writing drivers 
for Hercules and as there doesn't seem to be a standard for these cards 
I would need a driver for each type of card.

What I end up doing is going TN3270 over IP on Token Ring which really 
is a big fiddle.
> -ethan
>


-- 
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Tue Jun 19 04:47:29 2012
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:47:29 +0200
Subject: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
In-Reply-To: <4FDFA403.1040908@neurotica.com>
References: <20120618105530.9a4f1a4b2a45238f732670fb1ee2460e.1f237d5fc9.wbe@email16.secureserver.net>
 <4FDF6EC0.7040700@neurotica.com> <4FDF8A9B.8060107@hack.net>
 <4FDFA403.1040908@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <1340099249.16839.2.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org>

m?n 2012-06-18 klockan 17:56 -0400 skrev Dave McGuire:
> On 06/18/2012 04:07 PM, Ryan K. Brooks wrote:
> >>> the sun-3 is 68020 based.  I can't remember if there were any 68030
> >>> based sun's.
> >>    The Sun 3/80 and 3/400 are 68030-based machines.  The SunOS kernel
> >> architecture name is "sun3x".
> >
> > Did all the 68k suns have custom MMUs, or did any use Motorola?
> 
>   All custom, implemented in SSI, PALs, and/or gate arrays.
> 
>                -Dave
> 

The 2/120 for example has a lot of 74LS chips... The CPU board IS rather
heavy.
I should get the machine running (have a ST512 disk now.)
Will probably have to netboot.
The tapes isnt' dependable any more and last time i tried the machine,
the tape station gave me trouble.



From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 04:47:41 2012
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:47:41 +0200
Subject: Nova 4 memory problems (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power
 connector)
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5Q16tG9SBdZts0J+W0RxFRHhksQDekxhqrYU6+i1QhuAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+0-H5Q16tG9SBdZts0J+W0RxFRHhksQDekxhqrYU6+i1QhuAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5Td_YbmRwH2axidCF8FOVTHemcfTC0=j2pohNa4=dCPng@mail.gmail.com>

I've fixed the memory board. Had to replace a 74S38 (which generated
the two select lines to the MUXes) and 3 RAM chips.

I now get the full
OK
!000000
!

On startup.

Thanks everyone!


On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven
<iamcamiel at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 7:58 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven
> <iamcamiel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> So, it looks like the memory chip that controls bit 10 for addresses
>> ending in 01 (binary) is at fault here. I'm going to do some wire
>> tracing to find out which chip this might be...
>
> Did my wire tracing, came up with the following picture of the board
> (use a fixed-width font to view):
>
> +-----------------------------------------------------------+
> | ? ? ? ? ?15 ?14 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?bit ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1 ? 0 ?|
> | ? ? ? ? +u+ +u+ ................................. +u+ +u+ |
> | ? ? ? ? | | | | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | | | | |
> | 0xxxx00 | | | | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | | | | |
> | ? ? ? ? +-+ +-+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +-+ +-+ |
> | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
> | ? ? ? ? +u+ +u+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +u+ +u+ |
> | ? ? ? ? | | | | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | | | | |
> | 1xxxx00 | | | | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | | | | |
> | ? ? ? ? +-+ +-+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +-+ +-+ |
> | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
> | ? ? ? ? : ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? : |
> | ? ? ? ? : ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? : |
> | word ? ?: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? : |
> | ? ? ? ? : ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? : |
> | ? ? ? ? : ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? : |
> | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
> | ? ? ? ? +u+ +u+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +u+ +u+ |
> | ? ? ? ? | | | | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | | | | |
> | 0xxxx11 | | | | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | | | | |
> | ? ? ? ? +-+ +-+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +-+ +-+ |
> | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
> | ? ? ? ? +u+ +u+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +u+ +u+ |
> | ? ? ? ? | | | | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | | | | |
> | 1xxxx11 | | | | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | | | | |
> | ? ? ? ? +-+ +-+ ................................. +-+ +-+ |
> | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
> | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
> | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
> +-+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +---+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +-+
> ?+-------------------------+ ? +-------------------------+
>
> So at least I can now trace an error bit to a chip. However, I must
> have damaged something in the process (believe me, I've been careful),
> because for all addresses ending in xxxx10, the data reads back as
> 000000 now. I hooked up my logic analyzer, and found that data dis
> written to the memory chips in this row correctly. The data read from
> these chips is also correct. The data is then fed to a few 74153
> 4-to-1 MUXes. I checked the selection inputs to the MUXes, and these
> are wrong for row 2. Now I need to see where those inputs came from...
>
> To be continued...
>
> Camiel.



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Jun 19 06:45:23 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 04:45:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <201206182153.RAA26290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <201206182153.RAA26290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206190444240.18556@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012, Mouse wrote:

>> How do you know it's a free country?  I could be from outer
>> Quebecistan where they send out intercontinental meerkats with bombs
>> strapped to them in order to violently discourage top posting.
>
> I think you're confusing places here.  When Outer Quebecistan sends out
> the intercontinental meerkats, it's usually against people who post in
> langues autre que le joual.
>
The witty response generator has experienced a language parser crash.

One moment pl!@#NO CARRIER



-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Jun 19 06:50:34 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 04:50:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <20120618160543.E4131@shell.lmi.net>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <201206182153.RAA26290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20120618160543.E4131@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206190449470.18556@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote:

>>> How do you know it's a free country?  I could be from outer
>>> Quebecistan where they send out intercontinental meerkats with bombs
>>> strapped to them in order to violently discourage top posting.
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2012, Mouse wrote:
>> I think you're confusing places here.  When Outer Quebecistan sends out
>> the intercontinental meerkats, it's usually against people who post in
>> langues autre que le joual.
>
> oui
>
> But ANYBODY with their own F15 collection that threatens aerial
> bombardment can get away with such misteaks.
>
Meerkats are strictly ground strike elements Fred. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Jun 19 06:52:06 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 04:52:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <CC051165.12CE1%iank@vulcan.com>
References: <CC051165.12CE1%iank@vulcan.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206190451400.18556@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012, Ian King wrote:

> On 6/18/12 2:53 PM, "Mouse" <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
>
>>> How do you know it's a free country?  I could be from outer
>>> Quebecistan where they send out intercontinental meerkats with bombs
>>> strapped to them in order to violently discourage top posting.
>
>
> Oh ye gods and little fishes, not THIS rant again.  MID-posting -- Ian
>
Since you've gotten a Letter of Writ from the International Mid-Posting 
Commission, you're ok. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 19 10:57:26 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:57:26 -0400
Subject: Nova 4 memory problems (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power
 connector)
In-Reply-To: <CA+0-H5Td_YbmRwH2axidCF8FOVTHemcfTC0=j2pohNa4=dCPng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+0-H5Q16tG9SBdZts0J+W0RxFRHhksQDekxhqrYU6+i1QhuAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+0-H5Td_YbmRwH2axidCF8FOVTHemcfTC0=j2pohNa4=dCPng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE0A166.9000605@neurotica.com>

On 06/19/2012 05:47 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
> I've fixed the memory board. Had to replace a 74S38 (which generated
> the two select lines to the MUXes) and 3 RAM chips.
> 
> I now get the full
> OK
> !000000
> !
> 
> On startup.
> 
> Thanks everyone!

  Woohoo, congratulations!  Now you've gotta take some pics!

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From microcode at zoho.com  Tue Jun 19 11:22:15 2012
From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 16:22:15 +0000
Subject: Nova 4 memory problems (was Re: Nova-4 / Eclipse S/120 power
 connector)
In-Reply-To: <4FE0A166.9000605@neurotica.com>
References: <CA+0-H5Q16tG9SBdZts0J+W0RxFRHhksQDekxhqrYU6+i1QhuAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+0-H5Td_YbmRwH2axidCF8FOVTHemcfTC0=j2pohNa4=dCPng@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE0A166.9000605@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <201206191622.q5JGMLtT088843@billy.ezwind.net>

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 11:57:26 -0400
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:

> On 06/19/2012 05:47 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
> > I've fixed the memory board. Had to replace a 74S38 (which generated
> > the two select lines to the MUXes) and 3 RAM chips.
> > 
> > I now get the full
> > OK
> > !000000
> > !
> > 
> > On startup.
> > 
> > Thanks everyone!
> 
>   Woohoo, congratulations!  Now you've gotta take some pics!

This was the machine our high school had, complete with ASR33s and paper
tape readers. I can't say I liked it much at the time but now it seems
pretty cool :-)



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Jun 19 11:44:34 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 09:44:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206190449470.18556@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <201206182153.RAA26290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20120618160543.E4131@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206190449470.18556@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <20120619093922.D29961@shell.lmi.net>

> >>> How do you know it's a free country?  I could be from outer
> >>> Quebecistan where they send out intercontinental meerkats with bombs
> >>> strapped to them in order to violently discourage top posting.
> > But ANYBODY with their own F15 collection that threatens aerial
> > bombardment can get away with such misteaks.
On Tue, 19 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote:
> Meerkats are strictly ground strike elements Fred. :)

Sorry.  My time of potential military service would have been during
Viet Nam, and General Hershey was moronically clueless about random
number generation, so I never got basic military training.


Does the Geneva Convention say anything about dropping Dells with
Windoze from high altitude?




From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 12:16:13 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 13:16:13 -0400
Subject: Synchronous Modem Eliminators
In-Reply-To: <4FE02EFB.1020404@gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkd5+=UJZc24FrH6=Ao8KjQ7QkOt_yKijpLnk8fGa+WAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACytpF-hS1c89UsvPG-Lt+iGYWDdMQRpsUC+_zf+_P44Jj=fGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE02EFB.1020404@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnukucq-yxJKOdH+ST4NeiTWfdJ1UkzDdnEYpmSDG3OzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 3:49 AM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>> It's also entirely possible that the demand for synchronous serial
>> comms over RS-232 lines is so small...
>
> I think that the "demand" could be there, but devices to implement are not.

That much is clear.  I did find some X.25 LAPB hardware out there, and
there's still a few currently-available sync serial devices (at prices
you'd expect for specialty hardware).

> So I end up using simulated sync over TCP/IP 99.99% of the time.

Even Cisco apparently supports that, for connecting older automatic
teller machines via "BIP" (Bisync over IP).

> The only
> (well as far as I know) syncronous capable device(s) I have are a couple of
> IBM 3174 screens. What I don't have is any way to connect them to my Windows
> PC, Linux PC or SUN Solaris box. Even if I had some sync cards then I would
> still be left with the issues of writing drivers for Hercules and as there
> doesn't seem to be a standard for these cards I would need a driver for each
> type of card.
>
> What I end up doing is going TN3270 over IP on Token Ring which really is a
> big fiddle.

3270 sessions are certainly a likely use case for hobbyist sync serial
comms, and, yeah, nearly any amount of layering of existing products
and protocols is probably better than writing and maintaining your own
driver suite.

-ethan


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Jun 19 10:52:21 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 08:52:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <20120619093922.D29961@shell.lmi.net>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <201206182153.RAA26290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20120618160543.E4131@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206190449470.18556@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <20120619093922.D29961@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206190852080.27023@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote:

>>>>> How do you know it's a free country?  I could be from outer
>>>>> Quebecistan where they send out intercontinental meerkats with bombs
>>>>> strapped to them in order to violently discourage top posting.
>>> But ANYBODY with their own F15 collection that threatens aerial
>>> bombardment can get away with such misteaks.
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote:
>> Meerkats are strictly ground strike elements Fred. :)
>
> Sorry.  My time of potential military service would have been during
> Viet Nam, and General Hershey was moronically clueless about random
> number generation, so I never got basic military training.
>
>
> Does the Geneva Convention say anything about dropping Dells with
> Windoze from high altitude?
>
Not sure.  Search for "combat fenestration systems". :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From james at slor.net  Tue Jun 19 13:28:17 2012
From: james at slor.net (James)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 14:28:17 -0400
Subject: Wanted: Original Kaypro 16 floppies
In-Reply-To: <188f.4bd9f8f9.3d112300@aol.com>
References: <188f.4bd9f8f9.3d112300@aol.com>
Message-ID: <023f01cd4e49$4c889110$e599b330$@slor.net>

Will do - thanks.

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of FJGJR1 at aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 8:34 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: fjjgjr1 at aol.com
Subject: Re: Wanted: Original Kaypro 16 floppies

Post on the _www.vintage-computer.com_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com)
site - that  may be better & do a search for others who have posted on this
topic.
 
Good luck !
 
Frank
 
 
In a message dated 6/18/2012 9:55:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
james at slor.net writes:

Thought  I'd try one more time.  Anyone?

-----Original  Message-----
From: James [mailto:james at slor.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June  05, 2012 12:41 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Wanted: Original  Kaypro 16 floppies

I've been looking for an original floppy disk set  for my Kaypro 16 (not
16/2
or any others) for a while now.  Anyone on  this list have a set to part
with?  Or, worst case, anyone have a set  they could copy/image for  me?

Thanks!
James




From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 14:12:26 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:12:26 +0100
Subject: Synchronous Modem Eliminators
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnukucq-yxJKOdH+ST4NeiTWfdJ1UkzDdnEYpmSDG3OzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimkd5+=UJZc24FrH6=Ao8KjQ7QkOt_yKijpLnk8fGa+WAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACytpF-hS1c89UsvPG-Lt+iGYWDdMQRpsUC+_zf+_P44Jj=fGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE02EFB.1020404@gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnukucq-yxJKOdH+ST4NeiTWfdJ1UkzDdnEYpmSDG3OzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE0CF1A.4050202@gmail.com>

On 19/06/2012 18:16, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 3:49 AM, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> It's also entirely possible that the demand for synchronous serial
>>> comms over RS-232 lines is so small...
>> I think that the "demand" could be there, but devices to implement are not.
> That much is clear.  I did find some X.25 LAPB hardware out there, and
> there's still a few currently-available sync serial devices (at prices
> you'd expect for specialty hardware).
That brings back memories. For a few years I was responsible for 
maintaining a product called Network/VM that allowed VM/CMS machines to 
connect to the Janet X.25 network. At the start they used Series/1 which 
I didn't have much to do with. Later I ported it to use VTAM, NCP and NPSI..
>> So I end up using simulated sync over TCP/IP 99.99% of the time.
> Even Cisco apparently supports that, for connecting older automatic
> teller machines via "BIP" (Bisync over IP).
>
>> The only
>> (well as far as I know) syncronous capable device(s) I have are a couple of
>> IBM 3174 screens. What I don't have is any way to connect them to my Windows
>> PC, Linux PC or SUN Solaris box. Even if I had some sync cards then I would
>> still be left with the issues of writing drivers for Hercules and as there
>> doesn't seem to be a standard for these cards I would need a driver for each
>> type of card.
>>
>> What I end up doing is going TN3270 over IP on Token Ring which really is a
>> big fiddle.
> 3270 sessions are certainly a likely use case for hobbyist sync serial
> comms, and, yeah, nearly any amount of layering of existing products
> and protocols is probably better than writing and maintaining your own
> driver suite.
>
> -ethan


-- 
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 19 15:28:28 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 13:28:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <20120619093922.D29961@shell.lmi.net>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <201206182153.RAA26290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20120618160543.E4131@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206190449470.18556@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <20120619093922.D29961@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <1340137708.53638.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>


Does the Geneva Convention say anything about dropping Dells with
Windoze from high altitude?

C: Doubtful, but likely the EPA will. But just don't hit a meerkat, or I'LL have something to say about it!!!

From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 19 15:30:36 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 13:30:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: looking for Apollo systems and parts,
 and to interface w/other Apollo groupies
In-Reply-To: <CAEkdPRaSgNo5WrSYiCMP+5KmAczHvofF01-Gq2+HF=Z=GmLiRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1340052090.51892.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAEkdPRaSgNo5WrSYiCMP+5KmAczHvofF01-Gq2+HF=Z=GmLiRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1340137836.3610.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>





________________________________
 From: Ola Hughson <f.helyanvy at gmail.com>

Funny, because having an Apollo workstation is on my wishlist ;)
http://ola.earfolds.com/computers/

C: yeah but I"m not laughing Ola, I'm crying :(. I want one too, and all I got is a motherboard! Maybe I'll just stick it in a Mac case and be happy.


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Jun 19 14:08:30 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:08:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <1340137708.53638.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <201206182153.RAA26290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20120618160543.E4131@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206190449470.18556@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <20120619093922.D29961@shell.lmi.net>
 <1340137708.53638.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206191207490.891@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:

> From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
>
>
> Does the Geneva Convention say anything about dropping Dells with
> Windoze from high altitude?
>
> C:\DERP Doubtful, but likely the EPA will. But just don't hit a meerkat, 
> or I'LL have something to say about it!!!
>
It figures that you'd be a jihadi meerkat sympathizer.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 19 15:10:15 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 21:10:15 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FDFA4C3.4060006@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 18,
 12 05:59:31 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sh4kn-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

 > were created in the 80s). But as far as learning computers, I don't
> > necessarily see the benefit of a sbc (much less an sdk w/a keypad),
> > as opposed to an established system.
> 
>   That all depends on what you want to learn.  If you want to learn how
> computers actually *work*, which (IMNSHO) is a requirement for being
> able to program worth a damn, this is a good route...as long as it's not
> just treated like an appliance.

IMHO if you want to learn how computers really work you shouldn't be 
using a microprocessor at all :-). The _real_ way to do it is to build 
your own (simple) processor from TTL or similar (IMHO doing it in a FPGA 
is significantly less educational), or almost as good is to get a machine 
with such a processor (early 1970s mini...) and do battle with the 
schematics and a 'scope/LA.

> 
>   An "established system" (by which I think you mean "a commercial
> packaged/closed system") just plain denies a person that option, unless
> you go dig up the schematics for it.
> 
>   And in that case, say for an Atari or an Amiga, there are so many
> complex custom chips in there, a beginner isn't going to get much of an
> education out of it.

AFAIk the Mac hardware was never rully documetned. There may be 
reverse-engineered schematics of some older Macs, but they all have 
either custom chips or copy-protected PALs, so you can't get very far...

Maybe something like an HP9816 (or another 9000/200 amchine). If you 
avoild the ones with the MMU (9817, 9826U, HP9836U, basically), there are 
no PALs, it's all standard ICs. The 9816 is quite simple, acutally, 

Torch XXX? There are PALs, but they're not copy-protected IIRC. 

Any other candidates?

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 19 14:44:00 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:44:00 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FDF6F10.2080209@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 18,
 12 02:10:24 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sh4LO-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 06/18/2012 01:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
> >    Dear friends,       Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000
> > SBC for learning?
> > 
> >    I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
> 
>   I found this design a few years ago and liked it, but haven't built
> one yet:
> 
>   http://www.kmitl.ac.th/~kswichit/68k/68k.html

The second editon of the Student Manual for the Art of Electronics (or 
whatever the exact title is) has a set of experiments which get you to 
construct a very simple 68008-based device. The book describes making it 
on solderless breadboards, but obviously you could solder or wire-wrap it 
if you prefer. 

It's probably not a bad starting poitn if you've never built a computer 
from scratch before.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 19 14:51:55 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:51:55 +0100 (BST)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from
 "Chris Tofu" at Jun 18, 12 12:25:01 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sh4T2-000J4WC@p850ug1>

> 
> (and stop top posting

> C: Kindly stop telling me how to post

OK, post as you like, provided the lsit owner doesn't object. But I (and 
ohters) reserve the right to ignore people who go against the accepted 
copnventions of this list.

> Some replies are sent from my stupid/smart phone. It gives me the option=
>  of whether to include the op or not. Not where to place the text...
> It's a free country after all=0A
>

Actually it isn't. A country, I mean. This is a privately-run mailing 
list and the moderatior(s) can descide what is, and is not, acceptable 
here. Your freedom is to start another mailing list covering the same 
subjects whith your conventions. 

I am all in favour of free speech, but that doesn't maen I can shout out 
whatever I like wherever I like. There is nothing wrong with me saying 
that I disagree with some aspects of Christianity (say). There is 
everything wrong if I disrupt a church service my barging in and rating 
aobut such things. 

-tony






From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 19 15:21:04 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 21:21:04 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Load Testing PDP11 Power Supplies
In-Reply-To: <CADeD5WHiB99OhmhtCXOVjtpumgTE6OMJZ=_D4nM5UZzUCJMy4w@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Andrew Quinn" at Jun 19, 12 12:52:03 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sh4vG-000J4dC@p850ug1>

> 
> Thanks Tony and Rob for the comments.  I have a good selection of high
> wattage wire wound resistors so will use these to load test the supplies.
> 
> Started on the H7441 5VDC regulators by removing the 24000uf capacitors and

Those are hte massive ones sittng horizontally on the PCB, right? Theyr;e 
o nthe input side of the regualtor. IIRC there's a smaller can-type 
electrolytic on the output side. You weant to check thsi one too, if iy 
goes high-ESR (or open) you get nasty high voltaeg spikes on the output).

> tried charging them at 40v with 5ma.  One charges up fine... the other
> won't and the multimeter suggests an internal short.  Not sure if this
> failed in service or from sitting around.

COuld eb either...

> 
> Unfortunately I only have the two H7441 modules that came with the machine
> so will need to go hunting for replacements.  New ones can be had for about
> NZ$60 from RS Components here in New Zealand but any recommendations on
> alternative sources would be appreciated.

The vlaue is not too critical, these things have a pretty wide tolerance 
[1]. If you find 22000uF ones, they should be OK. As for cheaper sources, 
well, NOS ones could have failed due to old age (even if they've never 
been used), so they might be a wast of money. Probably better to go to a 
repuatable supplier (if that's the same RS Components as we have over 
here -- Radiospares of old -- they are reputable). 

[1] I am still wodnering why HP used some 6000uF and some 5600uF 
capacitors on the same PSU board. They are essentially the same thing due 
to the tolerance...

-tony


From f.helyanvy at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 16:20:56 2012
From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 23:20:56 +0200
Subject: looking for Apollo systems and parts, and to interface w/other
 Apollo groupies
In-Reply-To: <1340137836.3610.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1340052090.51892.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAEkdPRaSgNo5WrSYiCMP+5KmAczHvofF01-Gq2+HF=Z=GmLiRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1340137836.3610.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAEkdPRacopRDzfP1mV8qvQrb_EUW8UrtNssK8Vs5D5SLUrXpNw@mail.gmail.com>

2012/6/19 Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com>

> C: yeah but I"m not laughing Ola, I'm crying :(. I want one too, and all I
> got is a motherboard! Maybe I'll just stick it in a Mac case and be happy.
>

Want a hug?

-- 
Ola Hughson


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 16:21:08 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:21:08 +0100
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
Message-ID: <3E7172C167DB4B3FA41B0284EBC3F1E5@G4UGMT41>

Folks,
 
Any thoughts on what one of these is really worth?
 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-7550-Plus-8-Pen-Colour-Plotter-Boxed-Vintage-Ra
re-/130709681274
 
I know it is a high speed HPGL/2 capable plotter and I would really like it
but $2000....
 
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum

 

 


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 16:29:43 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:29:43 +0100
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <m1Sh4T2-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <0E6C802DE55343DFBCFDC027CC51A081@G4UGMT41>


 -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell
> Sent: 19 June 2012 20:52
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
> 
> 
> > 
> > (and stop top posting
> 
> > C: Kindly stop telling me how to post
> 
> OK, post as you like, provided the lsit owner doesn't object. 
> But I (and 
> ohters) reserve the right to ignore people who go against the 
> accepted 
> copnventions of this list.
> 

Its great that many folks can now pick up the list whenever and whereever on
their smartphones. However its really sad how limited in some areas these
are. The new ones are much better but whilst I can download an app to show
me the GPS status, connect my laptop to the internet, play videos from
youtube, and scan QR codes and jump to the links, I don't even have the
option to change the view zoom in the mail reader on my no old-fashioned
Some Experia X8 with Android 2.1. So if you insist on ignoring things that
we can't change then you may well miss some interesting, but wrongly trimmed
e-mails.

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum







From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Jun 19 14:57:36 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:57:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: looking for Apollo systems and parts, and to interface w/other
 Apollo groupies
In-Reply-To: <CAEkdPRacopRDzfP1mV8qvQrb_EUW8UrtNssK8Vs5D5SLUrXpNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1340052090.51892.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAEkdPRaSgNo5WrSYiCMP+5KmAczHvofF01-Gq2+HF=Z=GmLiRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1340137836.3610.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAEkdPRacopRDzfP1mV8qvQrb_EUW8UrtNssK8Vs5D5SLUrXpNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206191257170.2781@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012, Ola Hughson wrote:

> 2012/6/19 Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com>
>
>> C:\DERP yeah but I"m not laughing Ola, I'm crying :(. I want one too,
>> and all I
>> got is a motherboard! Maybe I'll just stick it in a Mac case and be happy.
>>
>
> Want a hug?
>
A sippy cup might help too. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 19 16:36:09 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:36:09 -0400
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <3E7172C167DB4B3FA41B0284EBC3F1E5@G4UGMT41>
References: <3E7172C167DB4B3FA41B0284EBC3F1E5@G4UGMT41>
Message-ID: <4FE0F0C9.6040200@neurotica.com>

On 06/19/2012 05:21 PM, Dave wrote:
> Any thoughts on what one of these is really worth?
>  
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-7550-Plus-8-Pen-Colour-Plotter-Boxed-Vintage-Ra
> re-/130709681274
>  
> I know it is a high speed HPGL/2 capable plotter and I would really like it
> but $2000....

  They're really, really nice plotters; I've had one for many years.
There's a 68K inside!

  Anyway, $2000, the seller is smoking crack.  It's worth $50-150 tops,
assuming it's in good shape.  These are all over the surplus market.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 19 16:38:18 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 14:38:18 -0700
Subject: looking for Apollo systems and parts,
 and to interface w/other Apollo groupies
In-Reply-To: <CAEkdPRacopRDzfP1mV8qvQrb_EUW8UrtNssK8Vs5D5SLUrXpNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1340052090.51892.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
 <1340137836.3610.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
 <CAEkdPRacopRDzfP1mV8qvQrb_EUW8UrtNssK8Vs5D5SLUrXpNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE08EDA.15357.1356BCA@cclist.sydex.com>

> 2012/6/19 Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com>
> 
> > C: yeah but I"m not laughing Ola, I'm crying :(. I want one too, and
> > all I got is a motherboard! Maybe I'll just stick it in a Mac case
> > and be happy.

Speaking of workstations, who collects Daisy Systems gear?

--Chuck



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 17:04:33 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:04:33 -0300
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FDF89F7.1090107@gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOw+rELaxfPma+rg_kdifiDUZNihH1Ns_dqDFGqDAcbcVdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1e8801cd4e67$9a5b11b0$6400a8c0@tababook>

> I have a couple of those, along with a copy of this book to go along with 
> them:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0138121818/
> 68000 Microcomputer Experiments: Using the Motorola Educational Computer 
> Board

    Glen always have the nicest toys :) 



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 17:06:04 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:06:04 -0300
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FDF6F10.2080209@neurotica.com>
 <1340050852.73119.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FDFA4C3.4060006@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <1e9501cd4e67$c70f2930$6400a8c0@tababook>

>  And in that case, say for an Atari or an Amiga, there are so many
> complex custom chips in there, a beginner isn't going to get much of an
> education out of it.

    I do agree with Dave. I have some "ready to run systems" like an Amiga, 
or a Genesis/Mega Drive, or a mac. But the fun is to understand how it works 
AND build it. I have not much use for a 68000 system, nor its assembly, but 
I just want to learn :o) 



From drb at msu.edu  Tue Jun 19 17:08:55 2012
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 18:08:55 -0400
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:21:08 BST.)
 <3E7172C167DB4B3FA41B0284EBC3F1E5@G4UGMT41>
References: <3E7172C167DB4B3FA41B0284EBC3F1E5@G4UGMT41> 
Message-ID: <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > Any thoughts on what one of these is really worth?

 > I know it is a high speed HPGL/2 capable plotter and I would really like
 > it but $2000....

As is, where is, I suppose, but $2000!?

I've seen several of these rotting in hallways around here over the last
few years, and a couple selling for at most a few tens of dollars at the
salvage yard.

There was an IBM model, 7372 I think, that was nearly identical in
appearance.  I don't know if it's as fast, and it may be six pen instead
of 8.  But if you can't find a 7550 for a sane price, it might be
another thing to look for.

De


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 17:13:02 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 15:13:02 -0700
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <3E7172C167DB4B3FA41B0284EBC3F1E5@G4UGMT41>
References: <3E7172C167DB4B3FA41B0284EBC3F1E5@G4UGMT41>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJFqLrsy2YoktZ65B2qjwyw1sGd-ABjk1YtpsjEGAb-zA@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 19, 2012 2:31 PM, "Dave" <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> Any thoughts on what one of these is really worth?
>
>
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-7550-Plus-8-Pen-Colour-Plotter-Boxed-Vintage-Ra
> re-/130709681274

I think I paid less than $50 for an HP 7550 plotter at Boeing Surplus back
when they were still around. Think I've also seen one or two locally on
Craigslist for less than $100 in the past. Haven't noticed or looked for
any in a while.


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 17:16:05 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:16:05 -0300
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>, ,
 <CADo=F9FEr8qof0Kr-PxAMwd1NcoVGW7N+T81YchTiWQNKae+Qw@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <CAALmimncVZ6bUsKy_PZNvSY42zsLKeo4M3kmeH5F+0=EAXcgsQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FDFA398.8212.2E74FF6@cclist.sydex.com>
 <SNT129-W35AED57D3BA152EFF793C9A3FF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1ef401cd4e69$48e59330$6400a8c0@tababook>

>Get a Canon Cat. It can be easily expanded to 512K
>and even more if your interested in regenerating the EPROMs

    In Brazil? Impossible :o)

> It is just not that interesting for fiddleing with hardware.
>Most of the interesting stuff is in ASICs.

    Ruled out :o(


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 17:16:34 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:16:34 -0300
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FE00087.4060703@gorge.net>
Message-ID: <1ef501cd4e69$49f09a90$6400a8c0@tababook>


    Thanks a lot Jim, I'll do as soon as I find some interesting hardware to 
use it.

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jimpdavis" <jimpdavis at gorge.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft


> Hello Alexandre,
>
> I have a LMI cross meta-compiler for the 68K I used for a project about 25 
> years ago.
> If you find a board you want to use, Send me the I/O map
> I can send you something that will boot into forthand will give you full 
> access to the system.
> You can have the source and modify the system at your leisure.
> Anything with 8K of  ROM, 8K of RAM and any I/O can be made to work quite 
> easily.
> Cheers,
> Jim Davis.
>
> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>>
>>    Dear friends,       Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC 
>> for learning?
>>
>>    I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
>>
>>    Thanks
>>    Alexandre
>>
>> ---
>> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
>> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
>>
> 



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 17:17:55 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:17:55 -0300
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <201206182153.RAA26290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20120618160543.E4131@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206190449470.18556@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <20120619093922.D29961@shell.lmi.net>
 <1340137708.53638.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1f1001cd4e69$763bde20$6400a8c0@tababook>

> Does the Geneva Convention say anything about dropping Dells with
> Windoze from high altitude?

    I did it someday, 23 floors to the ground. So bad I lost the VHS tape 
:'( 



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 17:20:19 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:20:19 -0300
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
References: <m1Sh4kn-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <1f1701cd4e69$cd5254f0$6400a8c0@tababook>


> Any other candidates?

    Commercial systems?
    - Apple II (fully documented)
    - ZX 80 / ZX81 (without ULA, the brazilian TK82C/TK83/TK85 are this way)
    - TRS-80 (any model, I'm thinking about building a model I just for fun)
    - TRS-Color (strange motorola chips for me, but no PALs and custom 
chips)
    - TI99/4A (which uses a VERY strange chipset, but no PALs)
    - Any MSX1 computer without MSX Engines (Brazilian MSX are done all with 
TTL and VLSI chips, some japanese MSX too like my Canon V20)

    There are lots of examples around :o) 



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 17:21:07 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:21:07 -0300
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
References: <m1Sh4LO-000J4TC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <1f2201cd4e69$e8b8a500$6400a8c0@tababook>

> The second editon of the Student Manual for the Art of Electronics (or
> whatever the exact title is) has a set of experiments which get you to
> construct a very simple 68008-based device. The book describes making it
> on solderless breadboards, but obviously you could solder or wire-wrap it
> if you prefer.
> It's probably not a bad starting poitn if you've never built a computer
> from scratch before.

    I still wasn't able to find this book at a fair price in Brazil. As soon 
as I have some free money I'll get the art of electronics and the student 
manual from USA :oP 



From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 17:53:45 2012
From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 08:53:45 +1000
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <0E6C802DE55343DFBCFDC027CC51A081@G4UGMT41>
References: <m1Sh4T2-000J4WC@p850ug1>
 <0E6C802DE55343DFBCFDC027CC51A081@G4UGMT41>
Message-ID: <4fe102f9.c4e2440a.6bf6.3e9a@mx.google.com>

Nothing wrong with top posting, saves trawling through (particularly in
longer threads) stuff you've already read multiple times.

I generally delete long posts that constantly re-quote the multitude of
conversations that have gone before merely to have a one short line comment
buried in them somewhere.

Top posting has pretty much been the norm since at least the mid 90s and
there's only a small vocal majority who tend to object to it these days.
I've used multiple styles since I first went online back in 1982 - it's
called change.

Lance

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Wednesday, 20 June 2012 7:30 AM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...


 -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell
> Sent: 19 June 2012 20:52
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
> 
> 
> > 
> > (and stop top posting
> 
> > C: Kindly stop telling me how to post
> 
> OK, post as you like, provided the lsit owner doesn't object. 
> But I (and
> ohters) reserve the right to ignore people who go against the accepted 
> copnventions of this list.
> 



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 18:03:28 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 00:03:28 +0100
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <4FE0F0C9.6040200@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <AD09C422626840678C5F4C2128B3FAD8@G4UGMT41>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
> Sent: 19 June 2012 22:36
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Weird Prices on E-Bay
> 
> 
> On 06/19/2012 05:21 PM, Dave wrote:
> > Any thoughts on what one of these is really worth?
> >  
> > 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-7550-Plus-8-Pen-Colour-Plotter-Boxed-Vint
> > age-Ra
> > re-/130709681274
> >  
> > I know it is a high speed HPGL/2 capable plotter and I would really 
> > like it but $2000....
> 
>   They're really, really nice plotters; I've had one for many 
> years. There's a 68K inside!
> 
>   Anyway, $2000, the seller is smoking crack.  It's worth 
> $50-150 tops, assuming it's in good shape.  These are all 
> over the surplus market.
> 

This model seems pretty rare in the UK. I havn't seen one like this on E-Bay
but I would have thought $200 was acheivable. I can't remember what I paid
for the HP7475A but I think it was around $100. No box but it does have a
cover and manual.


>             -Dave
> 
> -- 
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA
> 


Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum




From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 18:18:55 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:18:55 -0300
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
References: <3E7172C167DB4B3FA41B0284EBC3F1E5@G4UGMT41>
 <CAM2UOwJFqLrsy2YoktZ65B2qjwyw1sGd-ABjk1YtpsjEGAb-zA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f7d01cd4e72$01127ec0$6400a8c0@tababook>


    Even in Brazil, these are cheap :o)

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Glen Slick" <glen.slick at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: Weird Prices on E-Bay


> On Jun 19, 2012 2:31 PM, "Dave" <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>> Any thoughts on what one of these is really worth?
>>
>>
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-7550-Plus-8-Pen-Colour-Plotter-Boxed-Vintage-Ra
>> re-/130709681274
>
> I think I paid less than $50 for an HP 7550 plotter at Boeing Surplus back
> when they were still around. Think I've also seen one or two locally on
> Craigslist for less than $100 in the past. Haven't noticed or looked for
> any in a while. 



From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 19 18:20:50 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 16:20:50 -0700
Subject: looking for Apollo systems and parts, and to interface w/other
 Apollo groupies
In-Reply-To: <4FE08EDA.15357.1356BCA@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <1340052090.51892.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
 <1340137836.3610.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
 <CAEkdPRacopRDzfP1mV8qvQrb_EUW8UrtNssK8Vs5D5SLUrXpNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE08EDA.15357.1356BCA@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FE10952.900@bitsavers.org>

On 6/19/12 2:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> Speaking of workstations, who collects Daisy Systems gear?
>

I have a CPU chassis from the 386 version and an incomplete set of floppies

I'm afraid it may be extinct. I got the chassis from another collector and
have seen nothing at all from them for at least 15 years.

The original Valid Scaldstations are in better shape. CHM has one as well
as a workstation collector in Pittsburgh.

All of the Unix variants of the Corvus 68k machines seem to be gone, too.
Honeywell and I think Valid sold versions of those.



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 18:23:38 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 00:23:38 +0100
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <5948AB34305E487A96B9A5AECF755E58@G4UGMT41>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Boone
> Sent: 19 June 2012 23:09
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Weird Prices on E-Bay
> 
> 
>  > Any thoughts on what one of these is really worth?
> 
>  > I know it is a high speed HPGL/2 capable plotter and I 
> would really like  > it but $2000....
> 
> As is, where is, I suppose, but $2000!?
> 
> I've seen several of these rotting in hallways around here 
> over the last few years, and a couple selling for at most a 
> few tens of dollars at the salvage yard.
> 
> There was an IBM model, 7372 I think, that was nearly 
> identical in appearance.  I don't know if it's as fast, and 
> it may be six pen instead of 8.  But if you can't find a 7550 
> for a sane price, it might be another thing to look for.
> 

Sadly I am a bit of a plotter nut. I have an HDS 681, HP7475A, Roland
DPX-3300, Roland DXY-880A. I would really like an analogue XY chart recorder
to connect to my home-built analogue computer and whilst they are common in
the USA shipping to the UK is prohibitive. And of course a Calcomp would be
heaven but they really belong in a Museum.

The DPX-3300 is real fun, I think its basically A1/B1 high speed but it
takes up a lot of room and Mrs Dave hates it :-( If you have Facebook there
are some videos of the Rolands here, playing Hangman driven by a VB.2008
program :-

http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/118582384841803/

and there is one of the HDS plotting from CSMP II running on a modified
version of the SIMH IBM1130 emulator on youtube here:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCUUgLvVvpg

In this case the 1130 software is completely un-modified, the emulator
converts from Calcomp steps to HPGL. Its pretty simple as the Calcomp can
only move 0.01" in one of eight directions which the emulator converts to an
equivalent "PA" HPGL command. 

> De
> 

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum





From ss at allegro.com  Tue Jun 19 18:50:56 2012
From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 16:50:56 -0700
Subject: Found: paper tape for "L8/9" computer ... unknown computer
Message-ID: <51CAA674-AD7C-4C19-A28E-3E87B75E0208@allegro.com>

hi,

I found a box of paper tape software for an unknown
computer (possibly a "L8" or "L8/9"?)
... and it's looking for a home (cost of mailing):

The box is 8" by 8" by 1", with about 10 rolls of punched paper tape
of various roll size.

If anyone can suggest what computer it's from, I'm curious!

Box has a lot of writing on it:

----- front:
L8/9 FIRMWARES
FOR SALESMEN
NOTE
THIS IS A MASTER 
TAPE AND IS NOT
TO BE CUT UP!
   THE BOSS
---- back:
Contains:
2 - 2170-003-24 PPT INPUT ADDON
2 - 2170-004-24 PPT OUTPUT ADDON
2 - 2180-029-030 MEM ALLOCATOR
2 - 2180-022-01 MMR MEM DUMP
2 - 2180-005-02 SL3 PPT DUMP
2 - 2180-012-02 SL3 PPT DUMP
2 - 2170-010-26 DATA HANDLING ADD-ON
2 - 2180-006-02 PAPER TAPE READER LOAD
2 - 2100-001-28 L82 BASIC INTER.
2 - 2100-003-28 L86 BASIC INTER.
2 - 2100-004-28 L9 BASIC INTER.

...and about 20 more items.

Stan


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 19 18:57:09 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:57:09 -0400
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
References: <3E7172C167DB4B3FA41B0284EBC3F1E5@G4UGMT41>
 <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <4FE111D5.6000505@neurotica.com>

On 06/19/2012 06:08 PM, Dennis Boone wrote:
> There was an IBM model, 7372 I think, that was nearly identical in
> appearance.  I don't know if it's as fast, and it may be six pen instead
> of 8.  But if you can't find a 7550 for a sane price, it might be
> another thing to look for.

  IBM rebadged and resold the HP 7470 and 7475 plotters.  That's
probably what you're thinking of.  The 7475 is a six-pen plotter, and
only does 8.5x11.  The 7550 does 11x17. (dunno whether that matters to
the OP or not)

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 19 19:12:55 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:12:55 -0400
Subject: looking for Apollo systems and parts, and to interface w/other
 Apollo groupies
In-Reply-To: <4FE08EDA.15357.1356BCA@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <1340052090.51892.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
 <1340137836.3610.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
 <CAEkdPRacopRDzfP1mV8qvQrb_EUW8UrtNssK8Vs5D5SLUrXpNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE08EDA.15357.1356BCA@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FE11587.9080208@neurotica.com>

On 06/19/2012 05:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Speaking of workstations, who collects Daisy Systems gear?

  Are you talking about the EDA systems?  I saw one of those in use in
the late 1980s.  Damn that was a powerful system.

  I used a similar but competing system, a Calay, many years ago.  It's
a schematic capture and PCB autorouting system.  The main processor is a
PDP-11/23, and it has an ASIC-based autorouting assist processor
connected to it via a parallel DMA interface.  The whole shebang is
built into a desk.  I actually own one of these systems (sans desk,
sadly) but haven't yet had it shipped here.

  Hard-core stuff.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 19 19:18:04 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:18:04 -0400
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <AD09C422626840678C5F4C2128B3FAD8@G4UGMT41>
References: <AD09C422626840678C5F4C2128B3FAD8@G4UGMT41>
Message-ID: <4FE116BC.8040808@neurotica.com>

On 06/19/2012 07:03 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> I know it is a high speed HPGL/2 capable plotter and I would really 
>>> like it but $2000....
>>
>>   They're really, really nice plotters; I've had one for many 
>> years. There's a 68K inside!
>>
>>   Anyway, $2000, the seller is smoking crack.  It's worth 
>> $50-150 tops, assuming it's in good shape.  These are all 
>> over the surplus market.
> 
> This model seems pretty rare in the UK. I havn't seen one like this on E-Bay
> but I would have thought $200 was acheivable. I can't remember what I paid
> for the HP7475A but I think it was around $100. No box but it does have a
> cover and manual.

  The 7475 is a good machine, but the 7550 is a FAR more advanced
design.  I'd hold out for one at a decent price.  They were sold in the
UK as well, into the same markets...they can't be all THAT rare over
there.  I'd say $200 at the MOST.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 19 19:34:46 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:34:46 -0700
Subject: looking for Apollo systems and parts,
 and to interface w/other Apollo groupies
In-Reply-To: <4FE10952.900@bitsavers.org>
References: <1340052090.51892.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
 <4FE08EDA.15357.1356BCA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FE10952.900@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4FE0B836.14025.1D6FC53@cclist.sydex.com>

On 19 Jun 2012 at 16:20, Al Kossow wrote:

> On 6/19/12 2:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
 
> I'm afraid it may be extinct. I got the chassis from another collector
> and have seen nothing at all from them for at least 15 years.

I picked up a couple of the 20" Mitsubishi monitors sometime in the 
early 80s from a Haltek (not Halted) parking lot sale.  I used them 
for a few years with EGA cards (with a sync adapter).  Huge, heavy 
things--my desk developed a sag in the middle from the weight of one 
(it's still not right).  I still have the maintenance manual for the 
monitor, in case anyone needs one.  Has some good info on the 
convergence procedure.

Eventually, I traded them to Dave McGlone for a TRS80 Model 16 and 
some other stuff.  I still think I got the better deal (Alexandre, 
there's your 68K system.  If you get bored with the 68K, you can 
always revert to the Z80).

I wondered if anyone collected the whole Daisy systems.

--Chuck




From tothwolf at concentric.net  Tue Jun 19 19:48:43 2012
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:48:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <4FE0F0C9.6040200@neurotica.com>
References: <3E7172C167DB4B3FA41B0284EBC3F1E5@G4UGMT41>
 <4FE0F0C9.6040200@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206191932050.5524@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 06/19/2012 05:21 PM, Dave wrote:
>> Any thoughts on what one of these is really worth?
>>
>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-7550-Plus-8-Pen-Colour-Plotter-Boxed-Vintage-Ra
>> re-/130709681274
>>
>> I know it is a high speed HPGL/2 capable plotter and I would really like it
>> but $2000....
>
>  They're really, really nice plotters; I've had one for many years.
> There's a 68K inside!
>
>  Anyway, $2000, the seller is smoking crack.  It's worth $50-150 tops,
> assuming it's in good shape.  These are all over the surplus market.

I picked up two 7550A plotters in the late 1990s from various university 
auctions for ~$20-25/each. If these plotters are "rare" and now worth $2k 
as that eBay seller suggests then I think I got a heck of a bargain...

...and they are really, really nice plotters. IIRC, this was the -fastest- 
plotter HP ever made. They work with Chiplotle 
http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/chiplotle/
and documentation for these machines can be found at here: 
http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=75 
http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=75

The downside to these plotters is that they require a special serial cable 
(pinouts can be found online) and replacement carousels and carousel parts 
are not easy to find.


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Tue Jun 19 19:53:32 2012
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:53:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <4FE111D5.6000505@neurotica.com>
References: <3E7172C167DB4B3FA41B0284EBC3F1E5@G4UGMT41>
 <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <4FE111D5.6000505@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206191951090.5524@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 06/19/2012 06:08 PM, Dennis Boone wrote:
>> There was an IBM model, 7372 I think, that was nearly identical in
>> appearance.  I don't know if it's as fast, and it may be six pen instead
>> of 8.  But if you can't find a 7550 for a sane price, it might be
>> another thing to look for.
>
>  IBM rebadged and resold the HP 7470 and 7475 plotters.  That's
> probably what you're thinking of.  The 7475 is a six-pen plotter, and
> only does 8.5x11.  The 7550 does 11x17. (dunno whether that matters to
> the OP or not)

The 7550 will handle 11x17 if you manually place the page. The paper tray 
only handles 8.5x11 though.


From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 20:00:34 2012
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:00:34 -0500
Subject: Load Testing PDP11 Power Supplies
In-Reply-To: <CADeD5WHiB99OhmhtCXOVjtpumgTE6OMJZ=_D4nM5UZzUCJMy4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADeD5WEE5ON7b2L+-reFtnAebJZCCa3OYiCSxu406Ad9BjZ=bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADeD5WHiB99OhmhtCXOVjtpumgTE6OMJZ=_D4nM5UZzUCJMy4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOTRZjMCVf6ZcKLmKPc9pgrug1h4wem004CHBOZdv1xMw@mail.gmail.com>

The H7441 is +5, 32 amp but the H744 is +5 25 amp if my brain is
working well today. It should work ok in the 11/04. I have both, but I
see you are located in NZ.

Paul

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Andrew Quinn <jaquinn2001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Tony and Rob for the comments. ?I have a good selection of high
> wattage wire wound resistors so will use these to load test the supplies.
>
> Started on the H7441 5VDC regulators by removing the 24000uf capacitors and
> tried charging them at 40v with 5ma. ?One charges up fine... the other
> won't and the multimeter suggests an internal short. ?Not sure if this
> failed in service or from sitting around.
>
> Unfortunately I only have the two H7441 modules that came with the machine
> so will need to go hunting for replacements. ?New ones can be had for about
> NZ$60 from RS Components here in New Zealand but any recommendations on
> alternative sources would be appreciated.
>
> Regards
>
> Andrew



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 20:06:30 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:06:30 -0300
Subject: looking for Apollo systems and parts,
 and to interface w/other Apollo groupies
References: <1340052090.51892.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
 <4FE08EDA.15357.1356BCA@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FE10952.900@bitsavers.org> <4FE0B836.14025.1D6FC53@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201d01cd4e81$18ecc410$6400a8c0@tababook>

> Eventually, I traded them to Dave McGlone for a TRS80 Model 16 and 
> some other stuff.  I still think I got the better deal (Alexandre, 
> there's your 68K system.  If you get bored with the 68K, you can 
> always revert to the Z80).

    :oD Tell me more about that :oD


From fryers at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 20:16:54 2012
From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 09:16:54 +0800
Subject: looking for Apollo systems and parts, and to interface w/other
 Apollo groupies
In-Reply-To: <1340052090.51892.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1340052090.51892.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALWqHC0V0peLEsMmLOkZgPhgWb+LkhGR-ZZnazT_zuu=iyOxnA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On 19 June 2012 04:41, Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:
> There was a man in Kansas IIRC who had a bunch of Apollo stuff. I imagine it's long gone. If still available, please send me a private. I likely will be in that area w/i a month God willing. Never know what tomorrow will bring though.
>
> ?Come on Apollo gropies, I know you're out there. Let's be heard!

I have several Apollo systems - not working at the moment. They have
been badly stored for a number of years and I need to do a little bit
of work to bring them back to life. It is high on my todo list - just
not urgent at the moment. Hopefully I can get at least one of them
working before the end of the year.

I am located in Perth, Western Australia.

Simon

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to
philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is
the utility of the final product."
Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Jun 19 20:27:16 2012
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 21:27:16 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FE00087.4060703@gorge.net>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FE00087.4060703@gorge.net>
Message-ID: <4FE126F4.9020908@telegraphics.com.au>

On 19/06/12 12:31 AM, jimpdavis wrote:
> Hello Alexandre,
>
> I have a LMI cross meta-compiler for the 68K I used for a project about
> 25 years ago.

Here are sources to some more 68K cross-compilers:

http://www.telegraphics.com.au/svn/smallcnova/trunk/

--Toby

> If you find a board you want to use, Send me the I/O map
> I can send you something that will boot into forthand will give you full
> access to the system.
> You can have the source and modify the system at your leisure.
> Anything with 8K of ROM, 8K of RAM and any I/O can be made to work quite
> easily.
> Cheers,
> Jim Davis.
>
> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>>
>> Dear friends, Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC for
>> learning?
>>
>> I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
>>
>> Thanks
>> Alexandre
>>
>> ---
>> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
>> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
>>
>
>



From spectre at floodgap.com  Tue Jun 19 20:36:32 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 18:36:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <4fe102f9.c4e2440a.6bf6.3e9a@mx.google.com> from Lance Lyon at
 "Jun 20, 12 08:53:45 am"
Message-ID: <201206200136.q5K1aWBk15401038@floodgap.com>

> Top posting has pretty much been the norm since at least the mid 90s

amongst troglodytes using Microsoft Outlook

;)

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible -


From ss at allegro.com  Tue Jun 19 21:25:21 2012
From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 19:25:21 -0700
Subject: TinyBASIC in HP2645A (was: Converting terminals into computers
 (was: Re: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles))
In-Reply-To: <E1Sc0Vo-0005fb-BR@shell.xmission.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
 <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com>
 <E1Sc0Vo-0005fb-BR@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4D1C81D5-BB82-4AD2-808D-57D06FD28CE0@allegro.com>

Re:
On Jun 5, 2012, at 1:37 PM, Richard wrote:
> In article <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620 at allegro.com>,
>    Stan Sieler <ss at allegro.com> writes:
> 
>> (Of course, later TinyBASIC was ported to the HP2645A)
> 
> I'd like to hear more about this; is there a link online somewhere?

IIRC, Frank McConnell should have a copy.  I thought I did, but it's
not online like I thought it was.  I'll continue to look for it.

There were a number of games/programs ported to (or written for) the
HP 264x series of terminals.  Many required having an extra memory
board (e.g., 64 KB of memory), and (IIRC) Tiny BASIC was one of those.

I remember loading Tiny BASIC from a cartridge tape into my "fat" HP 2645
and running BASIC.  (And, it might have been my 2648 ... but I'm not
getting confused with the HP 2647 :)

Other games I recall: "Keep On Drivin'", and possible Pong or Centipede?,
and Space Invaders.  (All were distributed on cartridge tape, most were
capable of being loaded via the serial port as well.)

Stan



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Jun 19 21:26:36 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:26:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <4fe102f9.c4e2440a.6bf6.3e9a@mx.google.com>
References: <m1Sh4T2-000J4WC@p850ug1>
 <0E6C802DE55343DFBCFDC027CC51A081@G4UGMT41>
 <4fe102f9.c4e2440a.6bf6.3e9a@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <201206200226.WAA09128@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Nothing wrong with top posting, saves trawling through (particularly
> in longer threads) stuff you've already read multiple times.

That can be addressed (better IMO) by proper trimming of quoted
material.

As for "nothing wrong", I disagree.  It significantly disrupts
readability for me.  Perhaps I'm just old-fashioned, but I find it
easier to read linearly rather than bouncing back and forth between
quoted text and reply text with no particular indication of which reply
piece goes with which quote piece.

> Top posting has pretty much been the norm since at least the mid 90s

Not here.  Nor anywhere else I hang out.

Nor, given the arrogance and rudeness it exhibits, anywhere I'd want to
hang out.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Jun 19 21:37:09 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:37:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <0E6C802DE55343DFBCFDC027CC51A081@G4UGMT41>
References: <0E6C802DE55343DFBCFDC027CC51A081@G4UGMT41>
Message-ID: <201206200237.WAA09221@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> [...smartphones...].  However its really sad how limited in some
> areas these are.  The new ones are much better but whilst I can
> download an app to [...], I don't even have the option to change the
> view zoom in the mail reader on my no old-fashioned Some Experia X8
> with Android 2.1.

Some supposedly-smart phones have amazingly dumb MUAs, it's true.  But
this is of only minor relevance, because...

> So if you insist on ignoring things that we can't change then you may
> well miss some interesting, but wrongly trimmed e-mails.

...saying you "can't change" them is, at the very least, somewhat
disingenuous.  You can't change *them*, maybe, but you can change the
style of your interaction with the list.  You are the one choosing, by
your choice of software proxy, to manifest those qualities in your
posts.

Top-posting no-trimmers might have something interesting to say, it's
true.  But the assorted costs involved (meaning everything from the
additional time it takes to convert them into something understandable
to the costs of encouraging, by cooperating with, arrogant rudeness)
generally make it not worth the time and effort to figure out whether
there is anything interesting there, and, if so, what.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 22:16:13 2012
From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 13:16:13 +1000
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <201206200226.WAA09128@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1Sh4T2-000J4WC@p850ug1>
 <0E6C802DE55343DFBCFDC027CC51A081@G4UGMT41>
 <4fe102f9.c4e2440a.6bf6.3e9a@mx.google.com>
 <201206200226.WAA09128@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4fe14080.e6c8440a.6e18.633a@mx.google.com>



> Nor, given the arrogance and rudeness it exhibits, anywhere I'd want to
hang out.

That works both ways! 




From jws at jwsss.com  Tue Jun 19 23:14:42 2012
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 21:14:42 -0700
Subject: Dec Graphic terminal
Message-ID: <4FE14E32.7090302@jwsss.com>

I think it is anyway,.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110897384303

Dec VT Lan 40 terminal.  Appears that it might take PS2 kb and mouse, 
and vga display.  $75.  Only mention because of the recent threads on 
dec terminals and the like.

Jim


From keithvz at verizon.net  Tue Jun 19 23:35:42 2012
From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 00:35:42 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <4FE1531E.6020202@verizon.net>

On 6/18/2012 1:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>
> Dear friends, Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC for
> learning?
>
> I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware

http://www.vecoven.com/elec/m68k/m68k.html

He uses a 68008 in his design.

Keith



From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 19 23:45:14 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 21:45:14 -0700
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <4FE111D5.6000505@neurotica.com>
References: <3E7172C167DB4B3FA41B0284EBC3F1E5@G4UGMT41>,
 <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>,
 <4FE111D5.6000505@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W25212BEAC026FF375329F7A3FE0@phx.gbl>



Hi
 The thing that gets me is that it will most likely not sell
and continue to clog up the ebay listings for years to come.
I'm begining to think that is  what the seller wants.
They know it'll never sell and they have already sold it
under the table for a much lower price. This way they
don't have to pay ebay anything as no one would consider
buying it.
 The fact that it clutters up the listings is no big deal as
they'll eventually cut the strings and be off using some other name.
Dwight
  		 	   		  

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 20 00:05:13 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:05:13 -0700
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W25212BEAC026FF375329F7A3FE0@phx.gbl>
References: <3E7172C167DB4B3FA41B0284EBC3F1E5@G4UGMT41>,
 <4FE111D5.6000505@neurotica.com>,
 <SNT129-W25212BEAC026FF375329F7A3FE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4FE0F799.29593.2CE9508@cclist.sydex.com>

On 19 Jun 2012 at 21:45, dwight elvey wrote:

>  The thing that gets me is that it will most likely not sell
> and continue to clog up the ebay listings for years to come.
> I'm begining to think that is  what the seller wants.

You see that a lot on Craigslist--sellers asking the same above-
market price for something that's rapidly declining in value, day 
after day.  Since it costs them nothing to list, I suspect they have 
an automatic script that runs every day.

--Chuck



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 00:07:31 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:07:31 -0700
Subject: Dec Graphic terminal
In-Reply-To: <4FE14E32.7090302@jwsss.com>
References: <4FE14E32.7090302@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+Dy0DwTJokm3PNW8MHutrYyj9YZmk1u=6rnp_h8wpJZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 19, 2012 9:19 PM, "jim s" <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
>
> I think it is anyway,.
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/110897384303
>
> Dec VT Lan 40 terminal.  Appears that it might take PS2 kb and mouse, and
vga display.  $75.  Only mention because of the recent threads on dec
terminals and the like.
>
> Jim

Is this the same thing?

http://www.keyways.com/vtlan40.html

Sounds like an x86 pizzabox (same size as VT525?) that runs Windows 3.1 and
probably just runs a terminal emulator app? If so, doesn't sound too
exciting.


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 00:21:12 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:21:12 -0700
Subject: Dec Graphic terminal
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+Dy0DwTJokm3PNW8MHutrYyj9YZmk1u=6rnp_h8wpJZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FE14E32.7090302@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOw+Dy0DwTJokm3PNW8MHutrYyj9YZmk1u=6rnp_h8wpJZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJhjOQaYZvUB0LWkyJpSECUjZ0ka2JT+EWN2WMRCsju_w@mail.gmail.com>

> On Jun 19, 2012 9:19 PM, "jim s" <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think it is anyway,.
> >
> > http://www.ebay.com/itm/110897384303
> >
> > Dec VT Lan 40 terminal.  Appears that it might take PS2 kb and mouse,
and vga display.  $75.  Only mention because of the recent threads on dec
terminals and the like.
> >
> > Jim
>
> Is this the same thing?
>
> http://www.keyways.com/vtlan40.html
>
> Sounds like an x86 pizzabox (same size as VT525?) that runs Windows 3.1
and probably just runs a terminal emulator app? If so, doesn't sound too
exciting.
>

Responding to my own first reply, after reading the linked description
further it boots its software from ROM instead of just being a generic low
end Windows 3.1 box so that somehow makes it seem more interesting to me.
Built in DECNet and LAT support in addition to TCP/IP would be useful for
connecting to DEC boxes too.

Anyone have one of these that they use?


From jws at jwsss.com  Wed Jun 20 00:43:39 2012
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:43:39 -0700
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <4FE0F799.29593.2CE9508@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <3E7172C167DB4B3FA41B0284EBC3F1E5@G4UGMT41>,
 <4FE111D5.6000505@neurotica.com>,
 <SNT129-W25212BEAC026FF375329F7A3FE0@phx.gbl>
 <4FE0F799.29593.2CE9508@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FE1630B.7080307@jwsss.com>

I've been flagging some clown from Santa monica who is listing Dell 
servers with a pretty slick commerical looking ad.  Not the local 
inserts, but the idiot is inserting them in KC where have list-alerts set.

since I started they seem to be gone.  He's listing them at what may be 
list price don't know.  In the KC area, they are selling for 200-400 and 
he's listing them like the LA area prices, at 1000-2000.

I have listalerts for a lot of items, but over the 6 months since I've 
started using them have only caught a couple of items.

Jim

On 6/19/2012 10:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> You see that a lot on Craigslist--sellers asking the same above-
> market price for something that's rapidly declining in value




From jws at jwsss.com  Wed Jun 20 00:47:50 2012
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:47:50 -0700
Subject: Dec Graphic terminal
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJhjOQaYZvUB0LWkyJpSECUjZ0ka2JT+EWN2WMRCsju_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FE14E32.7090302@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOw+Dy0DwTJokm3PNW8MHutrYyj9YZmk1u=6rnp_h8wpJZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJhjOQaYZvUB0LWkyJpSECUjZ0ka2JT+EWN2WMRCsju_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE16406.7040409@jwsss.com>


On 6/19/2012 10:21 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
>> On Jun 19, 2012 9:19 PM, "jim s" <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
>>> I think it is anyway,.
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/110897384303
>>>
>>> Dec VT Lan 40 terminal.  Appears that it might take PS2 kb and mouse,
> and vga display.  $75.  Only mention because of the recent threads on dec
> terminals and the like.
>>> Jim
>> Is this the same thing?
>>
>> http://www.keyways.com/vtlan40.html
>>
>> Sounds like an x86 pizzabox (same size as VT525?) that runs Windows 3.1
> and probably just runs a terminal emulator app? If so, doesn't sound too
> exciting.
> Responding to my own first reply, after reading the linked description
> further it boots its software from ROM instead of just being a generic low
> end Windows 3.1 box so that somehow makes it seem more interesting to me.
> Built in DECNet and LAT support in addition to TCP/IP would be useful for
> connecting to DEC boxes too.
>
> Anyone have one of these that they use?
>
>
Glen
the only thing I saw in the listing you pointed out is that the video 
sucks.  It would be adequate to usable for text, but graphics, not so much.

Jim



From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 01:02:37 2012
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 01:02:37 -0500
Subject: PDP 11 rk05 controllor? pertec controllor?
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20kBq9rcyuN16SdeBybme546PkNoJOyC6TMsoJ_uW8kxw@mail.gmail.com>

anyone got one of these they would be interested in parting with
 i've got a heathkit h11 lsi-11 to plug it into witch curently has rl02
hooked up to it


and posibly a controllor for a pertec t6b40-9-45 9 track drive?
the pertec drive in question
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/pertec/tape/100884_T6x40-T6x60_Sep78.pdf

i need it for this rack of stuff
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160748462238&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123


Adrian
location Winnipeg canada


From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 19:22:15 2012
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:22:15 -0400
Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 106, Issue 30
In-Reply-To: <mailman.642.1340085028.1082.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.642.1340085028.1082.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=_QUqoRxv=LafCOubk35LdZ4URXtK-6NL09KHngmL2SDw@mail.gmail.com>

> From:?"Brad Parker" <brad at heeltoe.com>
> Date:?Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:55:30 -0700
> Subject:?RE: emulated linux/bsd motorola 68k system?
>
> The code is pretty dense but also pretty complete. ?The sun-2 is 68010
> based. ?As I recall
>
> the sun-3 is 68020 based. ?I can't remember if there were any 68030
> based sun's.
>
> -brad

I helped Matt get the Sun-2/Sun-3 emulator working by doing countless
tests on my Sun 2/120.
I still have the 2/120.

The Sun 3/80, 3/460, and 3/470 are 68030 based. I have one of each.

-- 
Michael Thompson



From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Tue Jun 19 19:28:08 2012
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:28:08 -0400
Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 106, Issue 31
In-Reply-To: <mailman.645.1340086070.1082.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.645.1340086070.1082.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=_u7Ej-dUcu07OyYuahhh81s3bxevL+H4=4Oth-i60JKw@mail.gmail.com>

> From:?Ola Hughson <f.helyanvy at gmail.com>
> Date:?Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:57:56 +0200
> Subject:?Re: looking for Apollo systems and parts, and to interface w/other Apollo groupies
> Funny, because having an Apollo workstation is on my wishlist ;)
> http://ola.earfolds.com/computers/
>
> --
> Ola Hughson

There is a bunch of Apollo equipment at the Rhode Island Computer Museum.
You should visit, inventory it, and see what it will take to get some
of it running.

-- 
Michael Thompson



From dm561 at torfree.net  Wed Jun 20 01:55:21 2012
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 02:55:21 -0400
Subject: Found: paper tape for "L8/9" computer ... unknown computer
References: <mailman.651.1340169680.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <9E40317B017F4700B32B82E9EAD4E78F@vl420mt>

Original Message:
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 16:50:56 -0700
From: Stan Sieler <ss at allegro.com>

> hi,

> I found a box of paper tape software for an unknown computer (possibly a
> "L8" or "L8/9"?)
> ... and it's looking for a home (cost of mailing):

> If anyone can suggest what computer it's from, I'm curious!

> Stan

----- Reply:

Hi Stan,

Those are firmware and utility tapes for Burroughs series L8000 and L9000
computers, the predecessors of the B80 and B90 series and fairly rare since
they were dismissed as mere 'accounting machines' and not considered
collectible by purists and people without storage buildings:

http://www.picklesnet.com/burroughs/gallery/bpgltc.htm

Several museums have one and last I heard Bob Rosenbloom also had an L9000,
as well as an L5000; I imagine he would be delighted to have those tapes and
might even need one or two since I doubt that there are more than a handful
of those tapes left in the world and some of them are crucial to the
machine's operation.

If by any chance there are no other takers I'd gladly take care of them for
you and posterity.

m









From dm561 at torfree.net  Wed Jun 20 02:02:42 2012
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 03:02:42 -0400
Subject: Top posting (was: Re: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,
 ...)
References: <mailman.651.1340169680.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <FF53EB28E8154FACB2F603CBA6ECFD2B@vl420mt>

----- Original Message:
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:26:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Top posting has pretty much been the norm since at least the mid 90s

> Not here.  Nor anywhere else I hang out.

> Nor, given the arrogance and rudeness it exhibits, anywhere I'd want to
> hang out.

----- Reply:

ROFL! Precious irony; was it intentional?

The only arrogance and rudeness I see in all this is from you and others
arrogantly telling people how they must write and rudely denigrating and
insulting anyone with a different opinion, while wasting everyone's time and
bandwidth with your inane posts.

If Jay wants to make and enforce such a rule, fine; your opinion doesn't
interest me.

I notice that none of you brave champions of the ancient Usenet traditions
had the courtesy to change the subject line, a far more serious 'crime' than
top-posting IMO as it forces the rest of us to wade through your posts on
the remote chance that one of you actually had something relevant to
contribute.

I also notice that probably around 10-20% or so of the *useful* posts here 
are usually top-posted, but since they are from 'regulars' like Andrew, Dan, 
etc. they don't merit your censure; apparently that's only for relative 
newcomers?

And FWIW, other than in places like this with its focus on the old and
venerable ways, I also find top posting the norm 'out there', and far more
efficient than every time having to wade again through text I've already
read or written before, looking for the reply; I'm relieved that I won't
encounter you in any of those venues.

m




From useddec at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 02:44:33 2012
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 02:44:33 -0500
Subject: PDP 11 rk05 controllor? pertec controllor?
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs20kBq9rcyuN16SdeBybme546PkNoJOyC6TMsoJ_uW8kxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs20kBq9rcyuN16SdeBybme546PkNoJOyC6TMsoJ_uW8kxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMMw5=5RASftZtFUwWcFDYPXYTzZQU5DMRWYb0d-P-jEg@mail.gmail.com>

I have a plessy and RK11-d for the unibus, and a RK8-E for the
omnibus. I might have an RKV11-D, but will have to find it.  These are
very uncommon.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:02 AM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:
> anyone got one of these they would be interested in parting with
> ?i've got a heathkit h11 lsi-11 to plug it into witch curently has rl02
> hooked up to it
>
>
> and posibly a controllor for a pertec t6b40-9-45 9 track drive?
> the pertec drive in question
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/pertec/tape/100884_T6x40-T6x60_Sep78.pdf
>
> i need it for this rack of stuff
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160748462238&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123
>
>
> Adrian
> location Winnipeg canada



From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 03:03:11 2012
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 03:03:11 -0500
Subject: PDP 11 rk05 controllor? pertec controllor?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuMMw5=5RASftZtFUwWcFDYPXYTzZQU5DMRWYb0d-P-jEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs20kBq9rcyuN16SdeBybme546PkNoJOyC6TMsoJ_uW8kxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMMw5=5RASftZtFUwWcFDYPXYTzZQU5DMRWYb0d-P-jEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20E0yDyPUCj8KuP+FedDF_4J35_ciprCEaErd1Jta6KqQ@mail.gmail.com>

and how uncomon are the Qbus ones?

i've got the omibus pdp8a with the rk8e but its kinda useles with out the
card jumpers and cables


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Wed Jun 20 05:59:02 2012
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 05:59:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Dec Graphic terminal
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJhjOQaYZvUB0LWkyJpSECUjZ0ka2JT+EWN2WMRCsju_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FE14E32.7090302@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOw+Dy0DwTJokm3PNW8MHutrYyj9YZmk1u=6rnp_h8wpJZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJhjOQaYZvUB0LWkyJpSECUjZ0ka2JT+EWN2WMRCsju_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206200518070.5524@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012, Glen Slick wrote:
>> On Jun 19, 2012 9:19 PM, "jim s" <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think it is anyway,.
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/110897384303
>>>
>>> Dec VT Lan 40 terminal.  Appears that it might take PS2 kb and mouse,
>>> and vga display.  $75.  Only mention because of the recent threads on 
>>> dec terminals and the like.
>>
>> Is this the same thing?
>>
>> http://www.keyways.com/vtlan40.html
>>
>> Sounds like an x86 pizzabox (same size as VT525?) that runs Windows 3.1
>> and probably just runs a terminal emulator app? If so, doesn't sound 
>> too exciting.
>
> Responding to my own first reply, after reading the linked description
> further it boots its software from ROM instead of just being a generic low
> end Windows 3.1 box so that somehow makes it seem more interesting to me.
> Built in DECNet and LAT support in addition to TCP/IP would be useful for
> connecting to DEC boxes too.
>
> Anyone have one of these that they use?

The Digital DE205 "EtherWORKS 3 Turbo Plus" is an ISA card, so it 
certainly has some sort of PC type hardware under the hood. The bracket 
and connector placement alone gave it away as a DE205 even before I 
noticed it mentioned further down in the listing. The 205 was the only DEC 
ethernet card that I'm aware of that had the two LEDs in between the AUI 
and BNC connectors.

One of the archived posts from comp.terminals 
ftp://ftp.cs.utk.edu/pub/shuford/terminal/dec_terminals_news.txt mentions 
"The windowing interface is a burned-in customized subset of Microsoft 
Windows." so I guess it used some part of Windows 3.1.

It sounds like it -might- be 386SX based. Can anyone confirm this?

I can think of some real benefits to a terminal that supports a PS/2 
keyboard and VGA monitor, including IP-based KVM systems.

If I could only find an inexpensive flyback for my VT340...


From f.helyanvy at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 06:36:53 2012
From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 13:36:53 +0200
Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 106, Issue 31
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=_u7Ej-dUcu07OyYuahhh81s3bxevL+H4=4Oth-i60JKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.645.1340086070.1082.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <CAH1BU=_u7Ej-dUcu07OyYuahhh81s3bxevL+H4=4Oth-i60JKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEkdPRbBiUNMDF=9_FCjCidD+bjtU96RLPvrncLQNU5SZeFzog@mail.gmail.com>

2012/6/20 Michael Thompson <michael.99.thompson at gmail.com>

>
> There is a bunch of Apollo equipment at the Rhode Island Computer Museum.
> You should visit, inventory it, and see what it will take to get some
> of it running.
>

1. I should visit Rhode Island regardless of the Museum, i have a friend to
visit there ;)
2. Yeah, provided I get a passport and money for travel ;P


-- 
Ola Hughson   <--- this person lives in the Glorious Republic of Polandstan!


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 07:18:51 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 08:18:51 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <m1Sh4kn-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
References: <m1Sh4kn-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <1D466414-A0FE-4BF6-AE09-89172716C7F6@gmail.com>

On Jun 19, 2012, at 4:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote:

>>  An "established system" (by which I think you mean "a commercial
>> packaged/closed system") just plain denies a person that option, unless
>> you go dig up the schematics for it.
>> 
>>  And in that case, say for an Atari or an Amiga, there are so many
>> complex custom chips in there, a beginner isn't going to get much of an
>> education out of it.
> 
> AFAIk the Mac hardware was never rully documetned. There may be 
> reverse-engineered schematics of some older Macs, but they all have 
> either custom chips or copy-protected PALs, so you can't get very far...

Most of the PALs in the original Mac weren't super-complex.  The most
complex ones, as far as I can tell, are the DRAM controller and the
sound chip; the rest were just memory decoding.  Of course, a PAL does
handle the somewhat complex 68000 bus logic, which I guess would be
the real magic behind a 68K board.

As for the address decoding PALs, they're fairly simple to guess
what the equations might be if you know the address map.  I have
the hardcover Inside Macintosh 1/2/3 book, which has the address
maps for everything up through the SE, IIRC.

There is a somewhat reduced and difficult-to-read schematic of the
original Mac logic board at Andy Hertzfeld's folklore.org site:

http://folklore.org/projects/Macintosh/images/schematic.jpg

This was a one-page reduction used for service, so it's primarily
used for tracing out connections, but it looks fairly complete.



- Dave




From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 07:51:58 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 13:51:58 +0100
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
Message-ID: <CABYXGGh_L_nhrEywe2LS0tR++tPR5+wiHDZhQigOcY5hA+T6VQ@mail.gmail.com>

Well we have had all the fun with 68K designs, but I would really like
to build a 6809 system. Any one know of a source for boards for a
simple system with say Serial Port and Parallel Port and memory?


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Jun 20 07:58:18 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 06:58:18 -0600
Subject: Dec Graphic terminal
In-Reply-To: <4FE16406.7040409@jwsss.com>
References: <4FE14E32.7090302@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOw+Dy0DwTJokm3PNW8MHutrYyj9YZmk1u=6rnp_h8wpJZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJhjOQaYZvUB0LWkyJpSECUjZ0ka2JT+EWN2WMRCsju_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE16406.7040409@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <E1ShKUE-0002Np-0k@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FE16406.7040409 at jwsss.com>,
    jim s <jws at jwsss.com> writes:

> the only thing I saw in the listing you pointed out is that the video 
> sucks.  It would be adequate to usable for text, but graphics, not so much.

It's not bad for it's time:

Graphics support
- 640 x 480 with 256 colors
- 800 x 600 with 256 colors
- 1024 x 768 with 16 colors

800x600 256 colors is pretty typical VGA for the period.

Hell, that's better than Tektronix graphics terminals of the mid 80s
:-).
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Wed Jun 20 06:25:06 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 04:25:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <201206200136.q5K1aWBk15401038@floodgap.com>
References: <201206200136.q5K1aWBk15401038@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206200424590.31219@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

>> Top posting has pretty much been the norm since at least the mid 90s
>
> amongst troglodytes using Microsoft Outlook
>
Bingo. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed Jun 20 08:14:33 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 06:14:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dec Graphic terminal
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206200518070.5524@brioche.invalid.domain> from
 Tothwolf at "Jun 20, 12 05:59:02 am"
Message-ID: <201206201314.q5KDEXL714942354@floodgap.com>

> I can think of some real benefits to a terminal that supports a PS/2 
> keyboard and VGA monitor, including IP-based KVM systems.

Alpha Micro produced a line of rebadged WinTerms that had built-in ZTERM
terminal emulation. I have one that I picked up at an estate sale, but I
haven't found a place to stash it yet (my Alpha Micros all use more 
conventional serial terminals).

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- In the end, everything is alright. -- Sarah Goldfarb, "Requiem for a Dream"


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 08:14:27 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 10:14:27 -0300
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
References: <CABYXGGh_L_nhrEywe2LS0tR++tPR5+wiHDZhQigOcY5hA+T6VQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22a501cd4ee6$abfdbd30$6400a8c0@tababook>


    I got one from the net, very interesting:
    http://searle.hostei.com/grant/6809/Simple6809.html

    But I wasn't able to make it work, because
    - I got a 6809E, and the pinout is different
    - I burnt a 256 eprom when it should use a 128
    - I got a pair of 6850 which one of them is not functional
    - I got a pair of MC6809 (not e) which one of them is not functional
    - I tried everything, after correcting my errors, and nothing worked

    I gave up on this, probably is my fault, but I'll build everything AGAIN 
with new parts and try to use it. I'm curious to see it working :o)

    (I just love SBC computers :oD)

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Wade" <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:51 AM
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System


> Well we have had all the fun with 68K designs, but I would really like
> to build a 6809 system. Any one know of a source for boards for a
> simple system with say Serial Port and Parallel Port and memory? 



From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 01:40:44 2012
From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:40:44 +1200
Subject: Load Testing PDP11 Power Supplies
Message-ID: <CADeD5WGysNKwNxeESk+h7Xh-Y8ZXTWhPECwY2veNFbsf10NE9A@mail.gmail.com>

>Those are the massive ones sittng horizontally on the PCB, right?

That is correct.

>there's a smaller can-type electrolytic on the output side.

Yes on the 7441 there are  two small axial style electrolytic that stand
vertically on the PCB.  These are small and cheap enough here to just
replace so I think I will do that.

>re suppliers

Yes we have RS Components here in NZ and they have a good range of parts
and generally the pricing is fairly reasonable.  No freight charges on
internet orders even if they bring the stuff in from the US or UK.
 Sometimes I wonder how they make money when I receive individually bagged
microcontrollers for a few $ each shipped from the US.  Must be some margin
in there somewhere.

I did find
http://newzealand.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium/2508858302/?searchTerm=2508858302
which
meets the specs but is very expensive down here.

Based on your suggestion that 22000uf 50V would likely be OK I wonder if
the following part might be an alternative:

http://newzealand.rs-online.com/web/p/miscellaneous/2550081355/?searchTerm=2550081355

Considerably cheaper down here.

Regards

Andrew


From lynchaj at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 20 08:42:07 2012
From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 06:42:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
Message-ID: <1340199727.76486.YahooMailClassic@web180204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Hi
>From the N8VEM home brew computing project wiki front page:



The three 6809 standalone computer boards available in the Eurocard (160 x 100 mm) format; the 6809/6802/6502 host processor, its 6809/6802/6502 IO?mezzanine, and the 6809/6802/6502 bus bridge.? A redesign of the 6809 host processor board has been completed and the new version supports 6502 and 6802 CPUs in addition to the 6809.?
?
All Eurocard ECB?format PCBs are $20 plus shipping which is $2 per board in the US and typically $5 per board overseas.
?
http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/4200908/FrontPage
?
There are PCBs for the 6x0x host processor and associated boards still available.? There was quite a bit of active development on this system a few months ago.
?
Thanks!

Andrew Lynch
?
?
--- On Wed, 6/20/12, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 8:51 AM
> Well we have had all the fun with 68K
> designs, but I would really like
> to build a 6809 system. Any one know of a source for boards
> for a
> simple system with say Serial Port and Parallel Port and
> memory?
> 

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 09:06:27 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 10:06:27 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <1D466414-A0FE-4BF6-AE09-89172716C7F6@gmail.com>
References: <m1Sh4kn-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
 <1D466414-A0FE-4BF6-AE09-89172716C7F6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimngAFzsUhd-kPE51APyosY_D2HiAhcxTPy8sSMq55dC-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 8:18 AM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> Of course, a PAL does
> handle the somewhat complex 68000 bus logic, which I guess would be
> the real magic behind a 68K board.

In a complex 68000 design, with 1980s-era memories that are slower
than bus speed for, say, a typical 8MHz CPU, or slower peripheral
chips (2MHz max 6821...), yes, the bus logic can be quite involved.

A new design with sub-100ns SRAM and 8MHz-capable peripheral chips
would be quite streamlined by comparison - if you weren't planning on
maxing out memory space for RAM and could just use A22-A23 to carve
out large swaths of address space for RAM, ROM, and I/O which would
avoid complex address decoding logic.  It's a little more elaborate if
you want to have, say, 14MB of RAM space, 1MB of ROM space, and 1MB of
I/O space - that's when most designs turn to address-select PALs.

-ethan


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 20 09:41:56 2012
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:41:56 +0200
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
In-Reply-To: <CABYXGGh_L_nhrEywe2LS0tR++tPR5+wiHDZhQigOcY5hA+T6VQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABYXGGh_L_nhrEywe2LS0tR++tPR5+wiHDZhQigOcY5hA+T6VQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY155-ds4172D08BE6E6632931D1E86FE0@phx.gbl>

From: "Dave Wade" <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 2:51 PM
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System

> Well we have had all the fun with 68K designs, but I would really like
> to build a 6809 system. Any one know of a source for boards for a
> simple system with say Serial Port and Parallel Port and memory?

The Blinkenlight board has an 6809, EPROM, RAM, PIA and ACIA.
An additional (small) board gives you 64 input and 64 output (all TTL),
but you loose the PIA interface in that case.
Have a look at my website (www.pdp-11.nl  [My projects]).
I do NOT have the boards nor a kit, but ask Vince!

greetz,
- Henk, PA8PDP 



From lynchaj at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 20 10:51:16 2012
From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 08:51:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimngAFzsUhd-kPE51APyosY_D2HiAhcxTPy8sSMq55dC-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1340207476.58984.YahooMailClassic@web180210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I'm interested in building a low cost hobbyist friendly 68K SBC using recent parts.? Something like the N8 project but using a 68K or later CPU.? I am thinking a non-bus based system with 1MB SRAM and using a Propeller for VGA, PS/2 keyboard, and microSD for storage.
?
The whole thing would have to fit on a 60 square inch PCB to use the inexpensive PCB prototyping service so that limits how much could go on the SBC.
?
Ideas?
?
Andrew Lynch

From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 11:05:45 2012
From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:05:45 +0200
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <1340207476.58984.YahooMailClassic@web180210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAALmimngAFzsUhd-kPE51APyosY_D2HiAhcxTPy8sSMq55dC-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1340207476.58984.YahooMailClassic@web180210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ0dHHxD9QAp-rghE7p0DReFObEjGrCcAhaiY8P-C-D_2BdY1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:51 PM, Andrew Lynch <lynchaj at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm interested in building a low cost hobbyist friendly 68K SBC using recent parts.? Something like the N8 project but using a 68K or later CPU.? I am thinking a non-bus based system with 1MB SRAM and using a Propeller for VGA, PS/2 keyboard, and microSD for storage.
>
> The whole thing would have to fit on a 60 square inch PCB to use the inexpensive PCB prototyping service so that limits how much could go on the SBC.
>
> Ideas?
>
> Andrew Lynch

Anyone considering the minimg Amiga "clone"/"reimplementation"/"FPGA
simulator"?  I'm fairly certain there are non-amiga FPGA images for it
already - after all it's just a 68k, RAM, some IO, all with just a fat
FPGA in the middle (and a PIC to load it and interface the SD card).

Seems to me it would be a great platform to try 68k interfacing.

Joe.
-- 
Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org



From ittybittybytes at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 12:08:27 2012
From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 10:08:27 -0700
Subject: Shameless parts trafficking! part2
In-Reply-To: <CABnU=Ws=+LcBcSmNpRuv=HMZ9m78th13y=cPzLTNovqE5c09NA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABnU=Ws=+LcBcSmNpRuv=HMZ9m78th13y=cPzLTNovqE5c09NA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABnU=WtYL9DniKtCpKjUxDgqixBtTi5FqFj4tiZOjzq2JwvN_A@mail.gmail.com>

More stuff from the shed.

As always, mention your a list member for extra goodies!

251088603502
251088594007
251089851693


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Jun 20 12:12:23 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 10:12:23 -0700
Subject: Shameless parts trafficking! part2
In-Reply-To: <CABnU=WtYL9DniKtCpKjUxDgqixBtTi5FqFj4tiZOjzq2JwvN_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABnU=Ws=+LcBcSmNpRuv=HMZ9m78th13y=cPzLTNovqE5c09NA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABnU=WtYL9DniKtCpKjUxDgqixBtTi5FqFj4tiZOjzq2JwvN_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE20477.6000101@bitsavers.org>

On 6/20/12 10:08 AM, Tom publix wrote:
> More stuff from the shed.
>
> As always, mention your a list member for extra goodies!
>
> 251088603502
  	
DEC PDP11/03-L BA11-N qbus chassis and backplane with failed power supply

> 251088594007
  	
DEC Digital Equipment Corp. BA23-CC cabinet expansion chassis

> 251089851693
>
>
Ohio Scientific Inc OSI Superboard II Model 600 Challenger C1P series.


Would including a description have been THAT difficult???






From ss at allegro.com  Wed Jun 20 12:44:04 2012
From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 10:44:04 -0700
Subject: Found: paper tape for "L8/9" computer ... unknown computer
In-Reply-To: <9E40317B017F4700B32B82E9EAD4E78F@vl420mt>
References: <mailman.651.1340169680.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <9E40317B017F4700B32B82E9EAD4E78F@vl420mt>
Message-ID: <C380184E-3735-4C36-B501-FAA253CA8989@allegro.com>

Re:
>> I found a box of paper tape software for an unknown computer (possibly a
>> "L8" or "L8/9"?)
>> ... and it's looking for a home (cost of mailing):
> 
> Those are firmware and utility tapes for Burroughs series L8000 and L9000
> computers, the predecessors of the B80 and B90 series and fairly rare since

I should have realized this...I arranged the donation of a working Burroughs L9000
to the Computer History Museum a few years ago (it had been in constant use
until a month before the donation). 

I don't recall the paper tape box being associated with that site, and given
the phrase "salesmen" on it (and the "strata" I found it in within my storage),
it seems likely to be from a different L9000 site.


> Several museums have one and last I heard Bob Rosenbloom also had an L9000,

I've started corresponding with Bob now, thanks!

> 
> If by any chance there are no other takers I'd gladly take care of them for
> you and posterity.

thanks for the kind offer!  If Bob declines, I'll let you know.

Stan


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Jun 20 12:53:01 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 10:53:01 -0700
Subject: Found: paper tape for "L8/9" computer ... unknown computer
In-Reply-To: <C380184E-3735-4C36-B501-FAA253CA8989@allegro.com>
References: <mailman.651.1340169680.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <9E40317B017F4700B32B82E9EAD4E78F@vl420mt>
 <C380184E-3735-4C36-B501-FAA253CA8989@allegro.com>
Message-ID: <4FE20DFD.30606@bitsavers.org>

On 6/20/12 10:44 AM, Stan Sieler wrote:

> thanks for the kind offer!  If Bob declines, I'll let you know.
>

CHM is interested, since apparently we have one.



From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Jun 20 12:45:56 2012
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 12:45:56 -0500
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <1339813610.46596.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo .com>
References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1339813610.46596.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201206201757.q5KHuwsp020068@billy.ezwind.net>

At 09:26 PM 6/15/2012, steven stengel wrote:
>I have used the Epson Workforce 645 - jammed a lot - I returned it.
>I now use the Fujitsu Scansnap S1500 to scan BYTE and other magazines.
>Works great, I love it - about $500 new.

Great device.  Yes, designed for extensive use.  And they sell the 
consumables - cheap replacements for the pads and pick roller that 
might wear out after 50K or 100K scans.

- John



From keithvz at verizon.net  Wed Jun 20 13:02:33 2012
From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 14:02:33 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <CAJ0dHHxD9QAp-rghE7p0DReFObEjGrCcAhaiY8P-C-D_2BdY1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimngAFzsUhd-kPE51APyosY_D2HiAhcxTPy8sSMq55dC-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1340207476.58984.YahooMailClassic@web180210.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAJ0dHHxD9QAp-rghE7p0DReFObEjGrCcAhaiY8P-C-D_2BdY1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE21039.9010200@verizon.net>

On 6/20/2012 12:05 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote:

> Anyone considering the minimg Amiga "clone"/"reimplementation"/"FPGA
> simulator"?  I'm fairly certain there are non-amiga FPGA images for
> it already - after all it's just a 68k, RAM, some IO, all with just a
> fat FPGA in the middle (and a PIC to load it and interface the SD
> card).
>
> Seems to me it would be a great platform to try 68k interfacing.
>
> Joe.

I own a minimig with an upgraded ARM processor. It has a 68k onboard, 
and of course the fpga for reproducing the custom chips.

I will buy an FPGA arcade replay as soon as they are released.  I'm on 
the pre-release list.

http://www.fpgaarcade.com/

I will probably also buy this

http://mcc-home.com/

I've been trading emails with one of their primary hardware HDL 
developer guys who are more or less modifying the minimig core and 
adapting the 68k softcore to fit their hardware.  They use an 16k 
altera, and it's pretty impressive that they are fitting everything.....

Very cool stuff.  Definitely gets my rocks off.

Keith

P.S. I also have a couple home-brew fpga based amiga-based hardware 
projects that I'm working on for myself.


From useddec at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 13:20:45 2012
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 13:20:45 -0500
Subject: PDP 11 rk05 controllor? pertec controllor?
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs20E0yDyPUCj8KuP+FedDF_4J35_ciprCEaErd1Jta6KqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs20kBq9rcyuN16SdeBybme546PkNoJOyC6TMsoJ_uW8kxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMMw5=5RASftZtFUwWcFDYPXYTzZQU5DMRWYb0d-P-jEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20E0yDyPUCj8KuP+FedDF_4J35_ciprCEaErd1Jta6KqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOt4K106NvFpFWbkWQP3ErGAF=rRid1iC2m6AUW2t5ruw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 3:03 AM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:
> and how uncomon are the Qbus ones?
>

I would believe that the RKV11 is the rarest of the three.



> i've got the omibus pdp8a with the rk8e but its kinda useles with out the
> card jumpers and cables


The green cubes that connect the tops of the cards together?
The cable that goes from the RK8E to the first drive? If you have a
unibus cable (BC11A)
That is damaged on one end, or even a good one, you should be able to
cut off one end and adapt it to the controller.

Paul


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 13:31:57 2012
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 13:31:57 -0500
Subject: PDP 11 rk05 controllor? pertec controllor?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuOt4K106NvFpFWbkWQP3ErGAF=rRid1iC2m6AUW2t5ruw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs20kBq9rcyuN16SdeBybme546PkNoJOyC6TMsoJ_uW8kxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMMw5=5RASftZtFUwWcFDYPXYTzZQU5DMRWYb0d-P-jEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20E0yDyPUCj8KuP+FedDF_4J35_ciprCEaErd1Jta6KqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuOt4K106NvFpFWbkWQP3ErGAF=rRid1iC2m6AUW2t5ruw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22QPZwo19ZGiXdR+RL_TRzQ-8gtnTc=8PfrjVY0A2=JLg@mail.gmail.com>

yes the green cubes


On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 3:03 AM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > and how uncomon are the Qbus ones?
> >
>
> I would believe that the RKV11 is the rarest of the three.
>
>
>
> > i've got the omibus pdp8a with the rk8e but its kinda useles with out the
> > card jumpers and cables
>
>
> The green cubes that connect the tops of the cards together?
> The cable that goes from the RK8E to the first drive? If you have a
> unibus cable (BC11A)
> That is damaged on one end, or even a good one, you should be able to
> cut off one end and adapt it to the controller.
>
> Paul
>


From useddec at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 13:49:01 2012
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 13:49:01 -0500
Subject: PDP 11 rk05 controllor? pertec controllor?
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs22QPZwo19ZGiXdR+RL_TRzQ-8gtnTc=8PfrjVY0A2=JLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs20kBq9rcyuN16SdeBybme546PkNoJOyC6TMsoJ_uW8kxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMMw5=5RASftZtFUwWcFDYPXYTzZQU5DMRWYb0d-P-jEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20E0yDyPUCj8KuP+FedDF_4J35_ciprCEaErd1Jta6KqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuOt4K106NvFpFWbkWQP3ErGAF=rRid1iC2m6AUW2t5ruw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22QPZwo19ZGiXdR+RL_TRzQ-8gtnTc=8PfrjVY0A2=JLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMB2BZW38coWZFTtQdB2c-L-4dOD7YS0EK4F22nK+wq6w@mail.gmail.com>

If you can find a Emulex or Dilog part number for the controller, I'll
see what I have.

I should have a few of the over the top connectors somewhere, but what
cable do you need?

Paul

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:
> yes the green cubes
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 3:03 AM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > and how uncomon are the Qbus ones?
>> >
>>
>> I would believe that the RKV11 is the rarest of the three.
>>
>>
>>
>> > i've got the omibus pdp8a with the rk8e but its kinda useles with out the
>> > card jumpers and cables
>>
>>
>> The green cubes that connect the tops of the cards together?
>> The cable that goes from the RK8E to the first drive? If you have a
>> unibus cable (BC11A)
>> That is damaged on one end, or even a good one, you should be able to
>> cut off one end and adapt it to the controller.
>>
>> Paul
>>


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 13:55:17 2012
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 13:55:17 -0500
Subject: PDP 11 rk05 controllor? pertec controllor?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuMB2BZW38coWZFTtQdB2c-L-4dOD7YS0EK4F22nK+wq6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs20kBq9rcyuN16SdeBybme546PkNoJOyC6TMsoJ_uW8kxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMMw5=5RASftZtFUwWcFDYPXYTzZQU5DMRWYb0d-P-jEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20E0yDyPUCj8KuP+FedDF_4J35_ciprCEaErd1Jta6KqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuOt4K106NvFpFWbkWQP3ErGAF=rRid1iC2m6AUW2t5ruw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22QPZwo19ZGiXdR+RL_TRzQ-8gtnTc=8PfrjVY0A2=JLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMB2BZW38coWZFTtQdB2c-L-4dOD7YS0EK4F22nK+wq6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs210zc-nQSXyiRXuK3mn6+kUqbrHMrEVd5z6v4DrT8-3Zg@mail.gmail.com>

i was hopeing u guys new what cable i needed

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> If you can find a Emulex or Dilog part number for the controller, I'll
> see what I have.
>
> I should have a few of the over the top connectors somewhere, but what
> cable do you need?
>
> Paul
>
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > yes the green cubes
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 3:03 AM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > and how uncomon are the Qbus ones?
> >> >
> >>
> >> I would believe that the RKV11 is the rarest of the three.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > i've got the omibus pdp8a with the rk8e but its kinda useles with out
> the
> >> > card jumpers and cables
> >>
> >>
> >> The green cubes that connect the tops of the cards together?
> >> The cable that goes from the RK8E to the first drive? If you have a
> >> unibus cable (BC11A)
> >> That is damaged on one end, or even a good one, you should be able to
> >> cut off one end and adapt it to the controller.
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
>


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 13:57:04 2012
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 13:57:04 -0500
Subject: PDP 11 rk05 controllor? pertec controllor?
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs210zc-nQSXyiRXuK3mn6+kUqbrHMrEVd5z6v4DrT8-3Zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs20kBq9rcyuN16SdeBybme546PkNoJOyC6TMsoJ_uW8kxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMMw5=5RASftZtFUwWcFDYPXYTzZQU5DMRWYb0d-P-jEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20E0yDyPUCj8KuP+FedDF_4J35_ciprCEaErd1Jta6KqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuOt4K106NvFpFWbkWQP3ErGAF=rRid1iC2m6AUW2t5ruw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22QPZwo19ZGiXdR+RL_TRzQ-8gtnTc=8PfrjVY0A2=JLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuMB2BZW38coWZFTtQdB2c-L-4dOD7YS0EK4F22nK+wq6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs210zc-nQSXyiRXuK3mn6+kUqbrHMrEVd5z6v4DrT8-3Zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23Uyd7Zp8PG-7yLazMhcwhdieN+FBpOUnwoia=s3GmApg@mail.gmail.com>

m7104
m7105
m7106

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>wrote:

> i was hopeing u guys new what cable i needed
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If you can find a Emulex or Dilog part number for the controller, I'll
>> see what I have.
>>
>> I should have a few of the over the top connectors somewhere, but what
>> cable do you need?
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > yes the green cubes
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 3:03 AM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > and how uncomon are the Qbus ones?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I would believe that the RKV11 is the rarest of the three.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > i've got the omibus pdp8a with the rk8e but its kinda useles with
>> out the
>> >> > card jumpers and cables
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The green cubes that connect the tops of the cards together?
>> >> The cable that goes from the RK8E to the first drive? If you have a
>> >> unibus cable (BC11A)
>> >> That is damaged on one end, or even a good one, you should be able to
>> >> cut off one end and adapt it to the controller.
>> >>
>> >> Paul
>> >>
>>
>
>


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 14:38:15 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:38:15 +0100
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206191932050.5524@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <53154ED619E541ACA62540666490CFEF@G4UGMT41>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tothwolf
> Sent: 20 June 2012 01:49
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Weird Prices on E-Bay
> 
> 
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
> > On 06/19/2012 05:21 PM, Dave wrote:
> >> Any thoughts on what one of these is really worth?
> >>
> >> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-7550-Plus-8-Pen-Colour-Plotter-Boxed-Vin
> >> tage-Ra
> >> re-/130709681274
> >>
> >> I know it is a high speed HPGL/2 capable plotter and I 
> would really 
> >> like it but $2000....
> >
> >  They're really, really nice plotters; I've had one for many years. 
> > There's a 68K inside!
> >
> >  Anyway, $2000, the seller is smoking crack.  It's worth 
> $50-150 tops, 
> > assuming it's in good shape.  These are all over the surplus market.
> 
> I picked up two 7550A plotters in the late 1990s from various 
> university 
> auctions for ~$20-25/each. If these plotters are "rare" and 
> now worth $2k 
> as that eBay seller suggests then I think I got a heck of a bargain...
> 
> ...and they are really, really nice plotters. IIRC, this was 
> the -fastest- 
> plotter HP ever made. They work with Chiplotle 
> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/chiplotle/

That looks fun. I hadn't seen that before...

> and documentation for these machines can be found at here: 
> http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=75 
> http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=75
> 
> The downside to these plotters is that they require a special 
> serial cable 



Not a problem. I already have some..

> (pinouts can be found online) and replacement carousels and 
> carousel parts 
> are not easy to find.
> 

Oddly PENS are a (well sort of) problem. Whilst the ones I use are made in
the UK they cost half the price if I buy them from the US. That's not a
problem except that if I buy more one set I get stung for a $15 fee to
collect the duty of around $4. Mad....

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum




From keithvz at verizon.net  Wed Jun 20 14:49:05 2012
From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 15:49:05 -0400
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <201206201757.q5KHuwsp020068@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1339813610.46596.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <201206201757.q5KHuwsp020068@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <4FE22931.8090203@verizon.net>

On 6/20/2012 1:45 PM, John Foust wrote:
> At 09:26 PM 6/15/2012, steven stengel wrote:
>> I have used the Epson Workforce 645 - jammed a lot - I returned it.
>> I now use the Fujitsu Scansnap S1500 to scan BYTE and other magazines.
>> Works great, I love it - about $500 new.
>
> Great device.  Yes, designed for extensive use.  And they sell the
> consumables - cheap replacements for the pads and pick roller that
> might wear out after 50K or 100K scans.
>
> - John

I bought the 645 about a month ago.  I have not used the ADF yet, and 
can't testify to that.

I will say driver support (including linux) seems pretty good.  Setup 
the wireless through the front panel in about two minutes --- 
automatically detected via Windows and Linux.  The bundled driver allows 
for wireless scanning, scan/print via an Android phone, and so on. 
Full-featured.

The 250-sheet paper tray is flimsy, but I'm glad the printer holds that 
much.  The plastic used throughout the printer is pretty flimsy, but 
it's a $100 multi-function device.  It will do two-sided scanning and 
two-sided printing...

The printer will accept the extra high-capacity ink cartridges -- not 
all of the epsons will.

As a consumer device, having just had it for a month or so, I'm plenty 
happy with it.

Keith



From jws at jwsss.com  Wed Jun 20 15:08:22 2012
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 13:08:22 -0700
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <53154ED619E541ACA62540666490CFEF@G4UGMT41>
References: <53154ED619E541ACA62540666490CFEF@G4UGMT41>
Message-ID: <4FE22DB6.2060203@jwsss.com>


On 6/20/2012 12:38 PM, Dave wrote:
>> -----Original Message----
I might make mention that I have one of the 48" plotters with I think an 
8 pin tray, and associated accessories if anyone is interested.

pick up in Southern California.
Jim


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 15:40:38 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 17:40:38 -0300
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
References: <CABYXGGh_L_nhrEywe2LS0tR++tPR5+wiHDZhQigOcY5hA+T6VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds4172D08BE6E6632931D1E86FE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <03a101cd4f25$03a34b70$6400a8c0@tababook>

> The Blinkenlight board has an 6809, EPROM, RAM, PIA and ACIA.
> An additional (small) board gives you 64 input and 64 output (all TTL),
> but you loose the PIA interface in that case.
> Have a look at my website (www.pdp-11.nl  [My projects]).
> I do NOT have the boards nor a kit, but ask Vince!

    I haven't seen blinkenlight board in your links :oO...Ah, the Home Made 
PDP-11? :oD I'll give it a try..would you have a spare core/io boards? :)

> - Henk, PA8PDP

    Man, I LOVE this call sign :oD 



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 15:53:06 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 21:53:06 +0100
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
In-Reply-To: <1340199727.76486.YahooMailClassic@web180204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FF300847BD2042A699EBF98354233E8F@G4UGMT41>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch
> Sent: 20 June 2012 14:42
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
> 
> 
> Hi
> From the N8VEM home brew computing project wiki front page:
> 
> 
> 
> The three 6809 standalone computer boards available in the 
> Eurocard (160 x 100 mm) format; the 6809/6802/6502 host 
> processor, its 6809/6802/6502 IO?mezzanine, and the 
> 6809/6802/6502 bus bridge.? A redesign of the 6809 host 
> processor board has been completed and the new version 
> supports 6502 and 6802 CPUs in addition to the 6809.?
> ?
> All Eurocard ECB?format PCBs are $20 plus shipping which is 
> $2 per board in the US and typically $5 per board overseas.
> ?
> http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/4200908/FrontPage
> ?
> There are PCBs for the 6x0x host processor and associated 
> boards still available.? There was quite a bit of active 
> development on this system a few months ago.
> ?
> Thanks!
> 
> Andrew Lynch
> ?

But elsewhere it says:-

"The Z80 in the SBC serves IO for the 6809 host processor as it does not
control the ECB directly.  However the 6809 host processor can get the
attention of the Z80 CPU through the ECB interrupt system."

which to me implies you need the z80 card..
.. or have I missed something

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum

> ?
> --- On Wed, 6/20/12, Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: Dave Wade <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 8:51 AM
> > Well we have had all the fun with 68K
> > designs, but I would really like
> > to build a 6809 system. Any one know of a source for boards
> > for a
> > simple system with say Serial Port and Parallel Port and
> > memory?
> > 
> 




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 20 15:35:07 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 21:35:07 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <5948AB34305E487A96B9A5AECF755E58@G4UGMT41> from "Dave" at Jun 20,
 12 00:23:38 am
Message-ID: <m1ShRcP-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

> Sadly I am a bit of a plotter nut. I have an HDS 681, HP7475A, Roland

As am I. I'd actually quite liek a 7550 (there's a 68000 processor in 
them IIRC), but I am not paying $2000 + shipping for one :-)

I even have an HP7470 opt 003 -- the HPIL pone, and the HP41 ROM module 
to drive it. No it's not up for grabs!

The HP9125 plotter is fun too. It conencts to the HP9100 expansion 
conenctor, it grabes the data from the X and Y regiaters and uses that s 
the cooridiantes. Inside it's not as complciated as you might think, 
given it's all discrete transistors. There are 4 boards of logic to 
interface to the strange 9100 signals (mostly flip-flops and diode 
gates), 2 DAC boards (3-and-a-bit decades, these things habve over 90 
transistos on them), and then essentially an analogue XY plotter 
conencted to the outputs of the DACs. 

> DPX-3300, Roland DXY-880A. I would really like an analogue XY chart recorder
> to connect to my home-built analogue computer and whilst they are common in

The do exist in the UK. I haev 2 of them (again, I am keeping them). One 
is a Houston Instruments, the other a Bryans. Both are (mostly) valved. 

Making one would be quite a fun project if you have a reasoanble 
mechancial workshop, actually. The Houston doesn't have any really odd 
bits. The slidewires are actually multi-turn pots coupled to the drive 
cables for the 2 axes, which might simplify things.

-tony



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 16:10:57 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:10:57 +0100
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
In-Reply-To: <22a501cd4ee6$abfdbd30$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <0EA0D61C6C2443FCA9965287A85FE525@G4UGMT41>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre 
> Souza - Listas
> Sent: 20 June 2012 14:14
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
> 
> 
> 
>     I got one from the net, very interesting:
>     http://searle.hostei.com/grant/6809/Simple6809.html
> 
>     But I wasn't able to make it work, because
>     - I got a 6809E, and the pinout is different
>     - I burnt a 256 eprom when it should use a 128
>     - I got a pair of 6850 which one of them is not functional
>     - I got a pair of MC6809 (not e) which one of them is not 
> functional
>     - I tried everything, after correcting my errors, and 
> nothing worked
> 
>     I gave up on this, probably is my fault, but I'll build 
> everything AGAIN 
> with new parts and try to use it. I'm curious to see it working :o)
> 
>     (I just love SBC computers :oD)
> 

I saw this. Think I might give me a go...

> ---
> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dave Wade" <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:51 AM
> Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
> 
> 
> > Well we have had all the fun with 68K designs, but I would 
> really like 
> > to build a 6809 system. Any one know of a source for boards for a 
> > simple system with say Serial Port and Parallel Port and memory?
> 
> 



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 20 15:09:05 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 21:09:05 +0100 (BST)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <0E6C802DE55343DFBCFDC027CC51A081@G4UGMT41> from "Dave" at Jun 19,
 12 10:29:43 pm
Message-ID: <m1ShRDD-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> > OK, post as you like, provided the list owner doesn't object. 
> > But I (and 
> > others) reserve the right to ignore people who go against the 
> > accepted 
> > conventions of this list.
> > 
> 
> Its great that many folks can now pick up the list whenever and whereever on
> their smartphones. However its really sad how limited in some areas these

Actually, I can't understand why anyone would choose to use a 
computational device where they can't run the software they want, 
including software they've wrirten themselves. But anyway..

[...]

> Some Experia X8 with Android 2.1. So if you insist on ignoring things that
> we can't change then you may well miss some interesting, but wrongly trimmed
> e-mails.

Ah, you sligthly misunderstood me. If I can read something, I will do so. 
If it provids me with useful information, I will make use of it. But if 
it#'s asking for information and goes against the conventions, then I am 
not going to bother to tke the time to  untagle it and then provide the 
information. 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 20 15:37:53 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 21:37:53 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <4FE111D5.6000505@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 19,
 12 07:57:09 pm
Message-ID: <m1ShRf4-000J4cC@p850ug1>

>   IBM rebadged and resold the HP 7470 and 7475 plotters.  That's

I thought htere were minor mechancial differneces too, it wasn't a simple 
rebadging. IIRC when loading paper into the hP one, you have to line the 
edge up with a mark on the plotter. With the IBM one, there;'s little 
plastic stop that's raised when you flip the load lever, you just put the 
paper against that.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 20 15:12:59 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 21:12:59 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <1f1701cd4e69$cd5254f0$6400a8c0@tababook> from "Alexandre Souza -
 Listas" at Jun 19, 12 07:20:19 pm
Message-ID: <m1ShRGy-000J4WC@p850ug1>

> 
> 
> > Any other candidates?
> 
>     Commercial systems?
>     - Apple II (fully documented)
>     - ZX 80 / ZX81 (without ULA, the brazilian TK82C/TK83/TK85 are this way)
>     - TRS-80 (any model, I'm thinking about building a model I just for fun)

Actually, the Model 4 uses either a lot of PALs or custom gate arrays 
depending on the version.

>     - TRS-Color (strange motorola chips for me, but no PALs and custom 
> chips)

The CoCo 3 has a custom IC (GIME) to replace the SAM and VDC chips. It 
provides more screen modes (including 80*24 text) and a simple MMU.

>     - TI99/4A (which uses a VERY strange chipset, but no PALs)
>     - Any MSX1 computer without MSX Engines (Brazilian MSX are done all with 
> TTL and VLSI chips, some japanese MSX too like my Canon V20)
> 
>     There are lots of examples around :o) 

But as the Subject: line indicates, I was specifically talking about 
68000 machines. I include 68008, 68010, 68020, etc in that, of course. 
But not other processors.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 20 15:45:27 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 21:45:27 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Load Testing PDP11 Power Supplies
In-Reply-To: <CADeD5WGysNKwNxeESk+h7Xh-Y8ZXTWhPECwY2veNFbsf10NE9A@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Andrew Quinn" at Jun 20, 12 06:40:44 pm
Message-ID: <m1ShRmP-000J4dC@p850ug1>

> 
> >Those are the massive ones sittng horizontally on the PCB, right?
> 
> That is correct.
> 
> >there's a smaller can-type electrolytic on the output side.
> 
> Yes on the 7441 there are  two small axial style electrolytic that stand
> vertically on the PCB.  These are small and cheap enough here to just
> replace so I think I will do that.

I am more used to (older, 25A) H744. I thouther there was another largish 
can in that one on the output side. I will have to look at the prints.
> Based on your suggestion that 22000uf 50V would likely be OK I wonder if
> the following part might be an alternative:
> 
> http://newzealand.rs-online.com/web/p/miscellaneous/2550081355/?searchTerm=2550081355

I don;t ahe the catalogue to hand... What is the spec of it? 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 20 15:28:15 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 21:28:15 +0100 (BST)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <4fe102f9.c4e2440a.6bf6.3e9a@mx.google.com> from "Lance Lyon" at
 Jun 20, 12 08:53:45 am
Message-ID: <m1ShRVl-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> 
> Nothing wrong with top posting, saves trawling through (particularly in
> longer threads) stuff you've already read multiple times.

That is an argument in vavour of triming messages (which I fully agree 
with -- please remembver some people are using dial-up lines and it does 
cost more to download more data). 

[...]

> Top posting has pretty much been the norm since at least the mid 90s and
> there's only a small vocal majority who tend to object to it these days.
> I've used multiple styles since I first went online back in 1982 - it's
> called change.


Before I (and other sensible people) change something, I think whether 
the new device/system/convetion offers benefits over what came before. If 
it does, then I use it. If it deosn't then I stick with waht I've been using.

Perhaps you should consider why 'inserted posting' was used in the first 
place. With paper mail, in general you couldn't copy blocks of text from 
the letter you were ansering, so you would write soemthing like 'In you 
letter dated <date> you asked fro the pinouts of the <foo>. As far as I 
can tell they are....'

But when you can quote and insert text, it makes sense IMHO to post the 
reply after the bit you are commenting on. Which do you find easier to 
understnad ? 

"You asked what bulbs go in an HP9810 card reder, they are 5V, 60mA, T1 
flange ones. You also asked what to use for the drive belt, I've found a 
size 231 O-ring works fine

> I am repairing an HP9810, and am working on the card reader. One of
> of the senor lamps has burnt out, what do I replace it by? 
> 
> Also, the drive belt is slipping is it possible to get a new one? " 

OR 

" > I am repairing an HP9810, and am working on the card reader. One of
> of the senor lamps has burnt out, what do I replace it by? 

It's a 5V, 60mA T1 flange bulb. 

> 
> Also, the drive belt is slipping is it possible to get a new one? " 

A size 231 O ring works fine "

If you can provide a reasonable jsutitification why top-posting is 
better, I will consider it. 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 20 16:01:06 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:01:06 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <1D466414-A0FE-4BF6-AE09-89172716C7F6@gmail.com> from "David
 Riley" at Jun 20, 12 08:18:51 am
Message-ID: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>

> Most of the PALs in the original Mac weren't super-complex.  The most
> complex ones, as far as I can tell, are the DRAM controller and the
> sound chip; the rest were just memory decoding.  Of course, a PAL does
> handle the somewhat complex 68000 bus logic, which I guess would be
> the real magic behind a 68K board.

No, it's not hard to work them out -- mostly. But if you are trying to 
learn about the 68000, it helps if you don't have to do guesswork on the 
way ;)-)

[...]

> There is a somewhat reduced and difficult-to-read schematic of the
> original Mac logic board at Andy Hertzfeld's folklore.org site:
> 
> http://folklore.org/projects/Macintosh/images/schematic.jpg
> 
> This was a one-page reduction used for service, so it's primarily
> used for tracing out connections, but it looks fairly complete.

I haev my own compelte scheamtics of the Mac+ (both boards, keyboard, 
mouse, disk drive), but of course nothing definite on the PALs.

I have thoguth of a fully-documetned 68000 board. The Sage II. It's a 
single board, sitting on top of disk drives and PSU. It's all standard 
ICs (TTL and normal I/O devices), _all_ of which are in sockets. And 
there's a schematic in the user manual. The onyl problem is finding such 
a machine.

-tony


From p.gebhardt at ymail.com  Wed Jun 20 16:59:31 2012
From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:59:31 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Bits and pieces rescued from the remainings of the Computer Museum
 Aachen
Message-ID: <1340229571.42796.YahooMailNeo@web29111.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi folks,

I'd like to share with you my experiences, I made during March and April when most of the remaings of a big computer collection originally located in Aachen were thankfully mostly saved by the collectors in Germany.

In March, there had been a brief discussion about remainings of the Computer Computer Aachen, Germany. As far as I understood, a couple of years ago, most of the collection could be saved thanks to the CHM and a donation of SAP, who made shipping from Germany to California possible from a financial point of view. The collection is since then known as the "SAP collection" and stored at the CHM.Bits and pieces, the CHM left behind in a warehouse in Dortmund, "re-appeared" in March. A very motivated person, who got informed about the vintage systems, tried then to locate and contact the renter of this warehouse via the landlord (which had to be located and contacted as well). It turned out that the content stored in this warehouse had to be cleared within 2 month, as the warehouse was going to be sold. This was a pure coincindence and destiny here was on the side of all those, who'd like to save ancient comouting systems from being scrapped, as that person
 actually tried to find collectors willing to save these remainings, as everything not saved would otherwise been scrapped.
An post in a Robotron systems online forum (Vintage computer manufacturer from eastern Germany) had been placed with images of the parts. First come, first serve was the philosophy in order to give away for free the bits and pieces to collectors, whoever wanted to save these. 

I found the thread when I read about it here at classic-cmp, as another list member posted the information here and asked for information about and identification of the parts.
So during the last three months, I went to this place more than once in order to try to save as much of complete parts as possible, I could, with the focus to get them back to working condition one day.
During the first visit, other very nice collectors from eastern Germany were there as well. There was a very good atmosphere in trying to help each other to move heavy partsand cabinets around, to part with the bits in a fair way and to identify and estimate the conditions of these remainings.

These are the days I like when you can meet new people who share this passion about vintage computing and save systems together from being scrapped. And that's how I have been knowing the collectors community in Germany so far.

But for the first time, I also experienced different attitudes in this domain.

With time, the discussions in that robotron thread where marked by rough tones of a person who stated that the remaings left behind by the CHM in that warehouse where "rejects" and therefore not worth or at least not interesting being picked up because of probably being incomplete and he treated the person who discovered the whole thing and opened the thread as unfair, as he felt the systems were already rewarded to others under doubtful circumstances.

Another bad surprise, we had to face, was the behavior of a collector who was at the warehouse earlier than me and who took the opportunity to take with him two EAI 2000 analogue computers for somebody else, I originally was supposed to deliver to. The person in charge at the warehouse confound that guy with myself and asked him, if he was the one supposed to bring these machines to the person, who claimed interest in these. He said "yes" and took everything with him. Call it what you want, but that's seriously the first time, I face such nasty behaviour to put hands on vintage computers!


I'd say that the real condition of a big lot of machines can only be identified properly, when being on site. That's exactly what I did. I stated interest in some parts of which I knew for sure that I could store them savely, in case their condition was satisfactory enough to resurect them to working condition one day. I also tried to save things which should belong together.

Too bad, I was limited in space (the eternal problem). Otherwise I would have saved more. Anyway, the following could find a new home within "my walls". 

two Honeywell Bull Datanet systems (on Level 66 basis), can be hopefully transformed to normal mini-computer with approriate software
Honeywell Bull reel tape drive with vacuum columns, complete (rebadged CDC tape unit, probably of type 669)
Honeywell Bull terminal and printer
Honeywell Bull disk drive (rebadged CDC BR3D4) with spare parts from another incomplete drive
Control Data 604 Tape Transport Unit, all logic boards missing

Control Data 854 Disk Drive, seems complete

Control Data 841 Multiple Disk Drive, saved complete electronics and one complete disk unit with its hydraulic actuator, had no space for the entire cabinet :(
Telefunken MDS-252 reel tape drive with vacuum columns, complete? (belonged to a TR-440 mainframe)
Telefunken TR-4 console, complete? (rebadged IBM typewriter)

Telefunken WSP-414 disk drive (rebadged CDS-drive) with concentrator-unit (complete) in order to connect up to eight drives to the TR-440 mainframe 

Telefunken LSS-150 power supply of a Facit paper tape unit
DEC RP03, (ISS) with spare parts from another damaged and incomplete drive

Pertec reel tape drive, complete

NCR reel tape drive (rebadged CDC BW303 tape transport), one small PCB missing

Logic boards from a CDC 608 tape unit (according to the person who organised the give-away, nobody ever showed interest in taking the complete unit)


Unfortunately, I couldn't find documents online about all of these parts. So I'd kindly like to ask the list, if anybody has documents about the following ones, so that I could ask them in future, when I come to the point where I can start restoration of these:

- CDC 604 and BW303 tape drives, 854 disk drive and 841 multiple disk drive
- Honeywell Datanet (or Level 66 minis) documents and software
- Telefunken schematics

As you can see, I focused on peripherals, due to my particular interest in disk and reel tape drives. Maybe, a running Honeywell system can be obtained out of the stuff, I saved.

Let's see how much can be resurrected of these in the years to come. Biggest problem regarding the disc drives will certainly be the missing disk packs and the probable re-calibration of the disk and tape units. The disk packs, I got from there, were all coroded to such an extend that they are most probably useless.
The DEC RP03 drive came with two document binders containing schematics. Haven't seen them on bitsavers, yet, and will therefore scan them in near future.

Kind regards,
Pierre


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 17:24:29 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:24:29 -0400
Subject: Bits and pieces rescued from the remainings of the Computer
 Museum Aachen
In-Reply-To: <1340229571.42796.YahooMailNeo@web29111.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <1340229571.42796.YahooMailNeo@web29111.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfKuf-_um-PVUUGLvd1dx_Wd2sWTN8Yr5Bsm0quafrK_Q@mail.gmail.com>

Docs for these machines may have been saved from CyberResources (Al?).
Likewise, I pulled a lot of CDC 1960s era logic boards out of there,
so I may have many or all of the cards for the 604. And when I say
lots, I mean a thousand or more of the 1600, 1700 and 3000 series
modules. I also have quite a lot of CDC alignment packs, some for
machines I am not familiar with, so I may have them for the 841.

> Unfortunately, I couldn't find documents online about all of these parts. So I'd kindly like to ask the list, if anybody has documents about the following ones, so that I could ask them in future, when I come to the point where I can start restoration of these:
>
> - CDC 604 and BW303 tape drives, 854 disk drive and 841 multiple disk drive

--
Will



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 17:36:06 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 23:36:06 +0100
Subject: Smartphones was RE: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64,
 128, ...
In-Reply-To: <m1ShRDD-000J4TC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <B5E367D5654F4D97BEBEE3225D7C9600@G4UGMT41>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell
> Sent: 20 June 2012 21:09
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
> 
> 
> > > OK, post as you like, provided the list owner doesn't object.
> > > But I (and 
> > > others) reserve the right to ignore people who go against the 
> > > accepted 
> > > conventions of this list.
> > > 
> > 
> > Its great that many folks can now pick up the list whenever and 
> > whereever on their smartphones. However its really sad how 
> limited in 
> > some areas these
> 
> Actually, I can't understand why anyone would choose to use a 
> computational device where they can't run the software they want, 
> including software they've wrirten themselves. But anyway..
> 

Quite so, but most folks don't want to write software they want something
that works just enough so they can do what they want to do. They don't ask
"is there a choice of apps" just "is there an app".  Even worse is the
removal of programming interfaces from web browsers, so on a desktop PC I
can happily order an iPhone or iPad from Tesco (think UK equivalent of
Wallmart) on their web site. If I want to order anything on an iPhone I
can't I need the Tesco "app". Yuk

Note unlike the Apple iPhones and Tablets my Xperia has a setting that I can
press to allow me to install my own software. Its not "rooted" which means
it has to be nice well behaved software but you can install things you have
written youself. The development kit also seems to be freely available.

> [...]
> 
> > Some Experia X8 with Android 2.1. So if you insist on 
> ignoring things 
> > that we can't change then you may well miss some interesting, but 
> > wrongly trimmed e-mails.
> 
> Ah, you sligthly misunderstood me. If I can read something, I 
> will do so. 
> If it provids me with useful information, I will make use of 
> it. But if 
> it#'s asking for information and goes against the 
> conventions, then I am 
> not going to bother to tke the time to  untagle it and then 

What does "untagle" mean? I thought I was the only one whose brain went
faster then their fingers...
.. or is it something you have to do with paper tape to get it to spool...

> provide the 
> information. 
> 
> -tony
> 




From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 17:37:15 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 23:37:15 +0100
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <m1ShRf4-000J4cC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <120AB39043F643DEABCCDE6DD7EC6310@G4UGMT41>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell
> Sent: 20 June 2012 21:38
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Weird Prices on E-Bay
> 
> 
> >   IBM rebadged and resold the HP 7470 and 7475 plotters.  That's
> 
> I thought htere were minor mechancial differneces too, it 
> wasn't a simple 
> rebadging. IIRC when loading paper into the hP one, you have 
> to line the 
> edge up with a mark on the plotter. With the IBM one, there;'s little 
> plastic stop that's raised when you flip the load lever, you 
> just put the 
> paper against that.
> 
> -tony
> 
Early HP plotters have the strip. Later ones don't...



From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 17:38:41 2012
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 17:38:41 -0500
Subject: Bits and pieces rescued from the remainings of the Computer
 Museum Aachen
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfKuf-_um-PVUUGLvd1dx_Wd2sWTN8Yr5Bsm0quafrK_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1340229571.42796.YahooMailNeo@web29111.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CANij+dfKuf-_um-PVUUGLvd1dx_Wd2sWTN8Yr5Bsm0quafrK_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22D-UMKswrS_XWjLN8cfw8jgXNG8DQ+tz-NP3RWuVq6Zw@mail.gmail.com>

glad it found homes sad that some people are sketch though :(


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Jun 20 18:27:18 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (aek)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:27:18 -0700
Subject: Bits and pieces rescued from the remainings of the Computer Museum
 Aachen
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfKuf-_um-PVUUGLvd1dx_Wd2sWTN8Yr5Bsm0quafrK_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1340229571.42796.YahooMailNeo@web29111.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CANij+dfKuf-_um-PVUUGLvd1dx_Wd2sWTN8Yr5Bsm0quafrK_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE25C56.5080309@bitsavers.org>

On 06/20/2012 03:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
> Docs for these machines may have been saved from CyberResources (Al?).
>
likely. all were cataloged and should be searchable on the CHM 
collections search page




From dm561 at torfree.net  Wed Jun 20 19:16:21 2012
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:16:21 -0400
Subject: Found: paper tape for "L8/9" computer ... unknown
References: <mailman.655.1340229586.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <E2A2E8F6F74049C082E4ADA557AA1457@vl420mt>

----- Original Message:
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 10:53:01 -0700
From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>

On 6/20/12 10:44 AM, Stan Sieler wrote:

>> thanks for the kind offer!  If Bob declines, I'll let you know.

> CHM is interested, since apparently we have one.

------ Reply:

Excellent; I assume that if they go to you there would be a way for someone
who might need one to get a physical copy?

m



From dm561 at torfree.net  Wed Jun 20 19:15:47 2012
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:15:47 -0400
Subject: Found: paper tape for "L8/9" computer ... unknown
References: <mailman.655.1340229586.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <454A62A797984339980EDAC000DB0CBA@vl420mt>

Original Message:
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 10:44:04 -0700
From: Stan Sieler <ss at allegro.com>

Re:

>> Those are firmware and utility tapes for Burroughs series L8000 and L9000
>> computers, the predecessors of the B80 and B90 series and fairly rare
>> since

> I should have realized this...I arranged the donation of a working
> Burroughs L9000 to the Computer History Museum a few years ago (it had
> been in constant use until a month before the donation).

> Stan
---------
Heh, heh; yes indeed. As a matter of fact I believe the pictures on the
Pickles site of Betty and the L9000 that went to CHM originally came from
you (DVQ), and you and I exchanged a few emails about it at the time.

mike




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Jun 20 19:18:25 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:18:25 -0400
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <120AB39043F643DEABCCDE6DD7EC6310@G4UGMT41>
References: <120AB39043F643DEABCCDE6DD7EC6310@G4UGMT41>
Message-ID: <4FE26851.1070301@neurotica.com>

On 06/20/2012 06:37 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>   IBM rebadged and resold the HP 7470 and 7475 plotters.  That's
>>
>> I thought htere were minor mechancial differneces too, it 
>> wasn't a simple 
>> rebadging. IIRC when loading paper into the hP one, you have 
>> to line the 
>> edge up with a mark on the plotter. With the IBM one, there;'s little 
>> plastic stop that's raised when you flip the load lever, you 
>> just put the 
>> paper against that.
>
> Early HP plotters have the strip. Later ones don't...

  My 7475A has it.

         -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Jun 20 19:26:19 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 17:26:19 -0700
Subject: Found: paper tape for "L8/9" computer ... unknown
In-Reply-To: <E2A2E8F6F74049C082E4ADA557AA1457@vl420mt>
References: <mailman.655.1340229586.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <E2A2E8F6F74049C082E4ADA557AA1457@vl420mt>
Message-ID: <4FE26A2B.2000906@bitsavers.org>

On 6/20/12 5:16 PM, MikeS wrote:

> Excellent; I assume that if they go to you there would be a way for someone
> who might need one to get a physical copy?
>

yes, currently the reader on the reader/punch isn't working but I may need to
reread some PDP-1 music tapes, so I need to look at that.



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Jun 20 19:41:38 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 17:41:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimngAFzsUhd-kPE51APyosY_D2HiAhcxTPy8sSMq55dC-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1Sh4kn-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
 <1D466414-A0FE-4BF6-AE09-89172716C7F6@gmail.com>
 <CAALmimngAFzsUhd-kPE51APyosY_D2HiAhcxTPy8sSMq55dC-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120620173546.V93886@shell.lmi.net>

I like the idea of the TRS80 Model 16. (part of the model 2/12/15 family
of 8" drive based machines)

Unlike model 1/3/4, which have LOTS of reverse engineering and stuff
written, the model 2 TRS-DOS is very UNDER-documented.  (Talk to Eric!)

But, the Z80 side of it (model 2) will run CP/M, and has several different
implementations, including Lifeboat, Pickles & Trout, etc.

TRS80 was not well respected.  I gravely offended an acquaintance by
asking him to compare his new Cromemco Z80/68000 system to the TRS80-16.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 20 20:11:29 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 18:11:29 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <20120620173546.V93886@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1Sh4kn-000J4ZC@p850ug1>,
 <CAALmimngAFzsUhd-kPE51APyosY_D2HiAhcxTPy8sSMq55dC-g@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20120620173546.V93886@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FE21251.23188.214B99F@cclist.sydex.com>

On 20 Jun 2012 at 17:41, Fred Cisin wrote:

> I like the idea of the TRS80 Model 16. (part of the model 2/12/15
> family of 8" drive based machines)

If 8" floppy drives scare you, it's very easy to set these up with 
5.25" HD or 3.5" HD drives.

And C compilers and 68K assemblers are available for these systems.  

It's actually pretty cool--you boot CP/M 2.2 on it just as you would 
a model II and then switch over to CP/M 68K if you desire.

Xenix is also available for these boxes, but a hard disk is pretty 
much mandatory for that.

--Chuck



From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Jun 20 21:41:45 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 19:41:45 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <20120620173546.V93886@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1Sh4kn-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
 <1D466414-A0FE-4BF6-AE09-89172716C7F6@gmail.com>
 <CAALmimngAFzsUhd-kPE51APyosY_D2HiAhcxTPy8sSMq55dC-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120620173546.V93886@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FE289E9.7020702@brouhaha.com>

Fred Cisin wrote:
> I like the idea of the TRS80 Model 16. (part of the model 2/12/15 family
> of 8" drive based machines)

The family consisted of the Z80 only models II and 12, and the Z80/68000 
models 16, 16B, and 6000.

> Unlike model 1/3/4, which have LOTS of reverse engineering and stuff
> written, the model 2 TRS-DOS is very UNDER-documented.  (Talk to Eric!)

I recently spent some time reverse-engineering multiple versions of the 
boot ROMs and portions of TRSDOS 1.2 and 2.0.  (Note that Model II 
TRSDOS is quite different than the more well-known Model I and Model 
III/4 TRSDOS, although there are similarities.)

Not to disparage anyone else's efforts, but when I say 
"reverse-engineering", I do NOT mean that I just ran it through a 
disassembler and sprinkled in a few labels and comments.  I mean that I 
turned it into something that can plausibly be considered to be source 
code.  This is, of course, a lot more work.

> TRS80 was not well respected.  I gravely offended an acquaintance by
> asking him to compare his new Cromemco Z80/68000 system to the TRS80-16.

The Model II family hardware was in most regards better engineered than 
the Model I/III/4 consumer-grade machines.

In the 16/16B/6000 systems, it was perhaps somewhat of an advantage to 
have a Z80 to serve as the I/O processor (although TRSDOS-16 failed to 
overlap any processing), but it was also somewhat of a disadvantage in 
that the 68000 could not access I/O devices directly at all, even in 
cases where that might have improved performance. Another problem was 
that the 68000 subsystem was designed to be able to interrupt the Z80 to 
request service, but because this only worked in machines sold as the 
Model 16/16B/6000, and not in upgraded Model II/12 machines, the 
software generally was not able to take advantage of it.  On the other 
hand, the Z80 could generate interrupts to the 68000 on all machines.

There were three generations of 68000 subsystems in these machines. 
Originally there was the "long card" version, which ran at 6 MHz. This 
was replace with a "short card", and then with a higher performance 
card.  They are not 100% software compatible, alas, so there are 
limitations on what version of Xenix runs on what card.



From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jun 20 22:27:17 2012
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:27:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Found: paper tape for "L8/9" computer ... unknown
In-Reply-To: <4FE26A2B.2000906@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <1340249237.90645.YahooMailClassic@web184520.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 6/20/12, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

> From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
> Subject: Re: Found: paper tape for "L8/9" computer ... unknown
> To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 5:26 PM
> On 6/20/12 5:16 PM, MikeS wrote:
> 
> > Excellent; I assume that if they go to you there would
> be a way for someone
> > who might need one to get a physical copy?
> >
> 
> yes, currently the reader on the reader/punch isn't working
> but I may need to
> reread some PDP-1 music tapes, so I need to look at that.
> 
> 


Stan is going to ship them to me and I will make sure Al gets them so they can be put up on bitsavers.

Bob


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 20 22:29:57 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:29:57 -0700
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <5948AB34305E487A96B9A5AECF755E58@G4UGMT41>
References: <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>,
 <5948AB34305E487A96B9A5AECF755E58@G4UGMT41>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W11091223054A4F98AAFB4EA3FD0@phx.gbl>



 

> From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com
---snip---
> 
> Sadly I am a bit of a plotter nut. I have an HDS 681, HP7475A, Roland
> DPX-3300, Roland DXY-880A. I would really like an analogue XY chart recorder
> to connect to my home-built analogue computer and whilst they are common in
> the USA shipping to the UK is prohibitive. And of course a Calcomp would be
> heaven but they really belong in a Museum.

Hi Dave
 I have a HP7044A that I use with my analog computer. I see both the
7044A and 7044B come up on ebay relatively often. The pens are a little
hard to get but there is a place in Arizona that sells various hard to get pens.
Dwight
  		 	   		  

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 20 22:36:54 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:36:54 -0700
Subject: Found: paper tape for "L8/9" computer ... unknown
In-Reply-To: <1340249237.90645.YahooMailClassic@web184520.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <4FE26A2B.2000906@bitsavers.org>,
 <1340249237.90645.YahooMailClassic@web184520.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W42D7A12B9139204CC4EF3FA3FD0@phx.gbl>



> From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net
> 
> --- On Wed, 6/20/12, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> 
> > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
> > Subject: Re: Found: paper tape for "L8/9" computer ... unknown
> > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Date: Wednesday, June 20, 2012, 5:26 PM
> > On 6/20/12 5:16 PM, MikeS wrote:
> > 
> > > Excellent; I assume that if they go to you there would
> > be a way for someone
> > > who might need one to get a physical copy?
> > >
> > 
> > yes, currently the reader on the reader/punch isn't working
> > but I may need to
> > reread some PDP-1 music tapes, so I need to look at that.
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> Stan is going to ship them to me and I will make sure Al gets them so they can be put up on bitsavers.
> 
> Bob

Hi
 This is great. Bob and Al have a machine ( although I doubt Al gets to
play with the CHM one ).
 The stuff will just orbit around the valley here ;)
Is it spools or fan fold, I wonder?
Dwight
  		 	   		  

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 20 22:50:20 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:50:20 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FE289E9.7020702@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1Sh4kn-000J4ZC@p850ug1>, <20120620173546.V93886@shell.lmi.net>,
 <4FE289E9.7020702@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4FE2378C.19834.2A62633@cclist.sydex.com>

On 20 Jun 2012 at 19:41, Eric Smith wrote:

> In the 16/16B/6000 systems, it was perhaps somewhat of an advantage to
> have a Z80 to serve as the I/O processor (although TRSDOS-16 failed to
> overlap any processing), but it was also somewhat of a disadvantage in
> that the 68000 could not access I/O devices directly at all, even in
> cases where that might have improved performance. Another problem was
> that the 68000 subsystem was designed to be able to interrupt the Z80
> to request service, but because this only worked in machines sold as
> the Model 16/16B/6000, and not in upgraded Model II/12 machines, the
> software generally was not able to take advantage of it.  On the other
> hand, the Z80 could generate interrupts to the 68000 on all machines.

When we were working on our 80186-80286 box and were writing the I/O 
routines for Xenix, I recall going up to Bellevue and being presented 
with a listing (we used green-bar tractor-feed paper for everything 
back then) for the I/O system for the Model 16 Xenix to use as a 
model.

Given the I/O devices that the Model 16 was working with, the Z80 was 
probably quite adequate to the task.  Speaking from my own 
experience, it really does make implementation of a protected-mode 
operating system simpler when all you have to do is pass messages to 
an I/O processor.

--Chuck





From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Jun 20 23:06:51 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 21:06:51 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FE2378C.19834.2A62633@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1Sh4kn-000J4ZC@p850ug1>, <20120620173546.V93886@shell.lmi.net>,
 <4FE289E9.7020702@brouhaha.com>
 <4FE2378C.19834.2A62633@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FE29DDB.9090304@bitsavers.org>

On 6/20/12 8:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> it really does make implementation of a protected-mode
> operating system simpler when all you have to do is pass messages to
> an I/O processor.
>

One of the weirder systems I used was a Colex VME 68000 running Unisoft System V.
Colex started out building VME MSDOS systems, and the way they got in the Unix
workstation market was they just designed a 68000/68451 board with local memory
and glued it into their MSDOS box with the 80186 doing all the I/O. I still have
all the code for the MSDOS side (all 8086 assembler).

Colex went under around 1985 and were up in Foster City.
I remember going up there to buying a half a dozen of the things cheap (like $200
a box, which was really cheap for a 68K Unix system in 1985..)
to use as 68000 development systems for the AED graphics board set we were designing.



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Jun 20 23:11:34 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 00:11:34 -0400
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W11091223054A4F98AAFB4EA3FD0@phx.gbl>
References: <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>,
 <5948AB34305E487A96B9A5AECF755E58@G4UGMT41>
 <SNT129-W11091223054A4F98AAFB4EA3FD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4FE29EF6.50407@neurotica.com>

On 06/20/2012 11:29 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
>   I have a HP7044A that I use with my analog computer. I see both the
> 7044A and 7044B come up on ebay relatively often. The pens are a little
> hard to get but there is a place in Arizona that sells various hard to get pens.

   Does that plotter take the pre-7475-style pens with the two little 
plastic "ears" on the sides, that you insert and turn to lock?  I have a 
7015B that takes those, and I'm looking for pens.   If you think this 
place would have those, would you please send me their contact information?

             Thanks,
             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Wed Jun 20 23:39:12 2012
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 23:39:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Dec Graphic terminal
In-Reply-To: <E1ShKUE-0002Np-0k@shell.xmission.com>
References: <4FE14E32.7090302@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOw+Dy0DwTJokm3PNW8MHutrYyj9YZmk1u=6rnp_h8wpJZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJhjOQaYZvUB0LWkyJpSECUjZ0ka2JT+EWN2WMRCsju_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE16406.7040409@jwsss.com> <E1ShKUE-0002Np-0k@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206202316200.18973@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012, Richard wrote:
> In article <4FE16406.7040409 at jwsss.com>, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> writes:
>
>> the only thing I saw in the listing you pointed out is that the video
>> sucks.  It would be adequate to usable for text, but graphics, not so much.
>
> It's not bad for it's time:
>
> Graphics support
> - 640 x 480 with 256 colors
> - 800 x 600 with 256 colors
> - 1024 x 768 with 16 colors
>
> 800x600 256 colors is pretty typical VGA for the period.
>
> Hell, that's better than Tektronix graphics terminals of the mid 80s
> :-).

Given the specs, it most likely has 256KB of video memory, but because it 
is using some PC-type hardware, it /might/ even be possible to shoehorn 
512KB or even 1MB in there by swapping out DIPs. In theory, software 
permitting, 1MB of video memory would allow 256 color mode (8bpp) at 
1024x768 or 65K color mode (16bpp) at either 640x480 or 800x600.

Windows 3.1 itself could happily handle 1024x768 at 16M colors (32bpp) if 
the video adapter had enough memory [4MB, actually 3072KB, or 
(1024x768x32) / 8192 = 3072].


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Thu Jun 21 00:19:00 2012
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 00:19:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <m1ShRcP-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
References: <m1ShRcP-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206210012420.18973@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:

>> Sadly I am a bit of a plotter nut. I have an HDS 681, HP7475A, Roland
>
> As am I. I'd actually quite liek a 7550 (there's a 68000 processor in
> them IIRC), but I am not paying $2000 + shipping for one :-)

What's not to love about old plotters? They are full of all sorts of 
interesting electromechanical engineering :)

About the only other computer-related technology I find on par with old 
plotters in this regard are optical disc changers and automated tape 
libraries.


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Jun 21 00:24:13 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 01:24:13 -0400
Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 106, Issue 30
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=_QUqoRxv=LafCOubk35LdZ4URXtK-6NL09KHngmL2SDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.642.1340085028.1082.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <CAH1BU=_QUqoRxv=LafCOubk35LdZ4URXtK-6NL09KHngmL2SDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE2AFFD.3080703@neurotica.com>

On 06/19/2012 08:22 PM, Michael Thompson wrote:
> The Sun 3/80, 3/460, and 3/470 are 68030 based. I have one of each.

  The 3/460 and 3/470 are actually the same machine in different
chassis.  This pattern holds in nearly all cases; the digit before the
slash is the family (2=68010, 3=68020/68030, 4=SPARC), then the first
digit after the slash is the processor board type, and the second digit
is the chassis type.

  This does break down in cases such as the SPARCstations, in which (for
example) the Sun-4/60 is a SPARCstation-1, a 4/65 is a -1+, and a 4/75
is a -2, but the numbering scheme does hold for the VME machines at
least, with the only exception I'm aware of is the 3/110 which was an
odd CPU board that they didn't seem to use anywhere else.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Thu Jun 21 00:28:08 2012
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 00:28:08 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <53154ED619E541ACA62540666490CFEF@G4UGMT41>
References: <53154ED619E541ACA62540666490CFEF@G4UGMT41>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206210019200.18973@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012, Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
>
>> The downside to these plotters is that they require a special
>> serial cable
>
> Not a problem. I already have some..
>
>> (pinouts can be found online) and replacement carousels and carousel 
>> parts are not easy to find.
>
>
> Oddly PENS are a (well sort of) problem. Whilst the ones I use are made 
> in the UK they cost half the price if I buy them from the US. That's not 
> a problem except that if I buy more one set I get stung for a $15 fee to 
> collect the duty of around $4. Mad....

There are different types of pens too. There are liquid ink roller ball 
pins and fibertip (marker) pens. The fibertip pens also come in two 
varieties, one for paper and another for transparencies.

Sometimes you can find NOS pens still in the original HP foil pouches, and 
if you are fortunate to find them, don't make the mistake I did and open 
them before you are ready to use them (I own an impulse sealer now, so 
today I would simply reseal the foil pouch).

There are also different types of carousels depending on the type of pen. 
I seem to remember both of my plotters have transparency carousels but I 
had no trouble using them with fibertip pens for paper.


From rwiker at gmail.com  Wed Jun 20 13:21:12 2012
From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:21:12 +0200
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
In-Reply-To: <CABYXGGh_L_nhrEywe2LS0tR++tPR5+wiHDZhQigOcY5hA+T6VQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABYXGGh_L_nhrEywe2LS0tR++tPR5+wiHDZhQigOcY5hA+T6VQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0822691F-577E-4E1F-A052-2F1D53226A7A@gmail.com>

On Jun 20, 2012, at 14:51 , Dave Wade wrote:
> Well we have had all the fun with 68K designs, but I would really like
> to build a 6809 system. Any one know of a source for boards for a
> simple system with say Serial Port and Parallel Port and memory?

Vince Briel is working on a 6809 system; see http://www.brielcomputers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1035 

From wrm at dW.co.za  Wed Jun 20 13:29:59 2012
From: wrm at dW.co.za (Wouter de Waal)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:29:59 +0200
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1340211600.9408.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20120620202616.033eaed8@196.22.225.198>


>
>Well we have had all the fun with 68K designs, but I would really like
>to build a 6809 system. Any one know of a source for boards for a
>simple system with say Serial Port and Parallel Port and memory?

Buy a color computer or a dragon. It's pretty much a clone of the appnote.

Otherwise, try Frank Wilson's design via http://koti.mbnet.fi/~atjs/mc6809/

(Because my design never worked right :-)

W




From wrm at retro.co.za  Wed Jun 20 13:30:27 2012
From: wrm at retro.co.za (Wouter)
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 20:30:27 +0200
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20120620203021.03459428@196.22.225.198>


>
>Well we have had all the fun with 68K designs, but I would really like
>to build a 6809 system. Any one know of a source for boards for a
>simple system with say Serial Port and Parallel Port and memory?

Buy a color computer or a dragon. It's pretty much a clone of the appnote.

Otherwise, try Frank Wilson's design via http://koti.mbnet.fi/~atjs/mc6809/

(Because my design never worked right :-)

W



From jecel at merlintec.com  Thu Jun 21 00:54:03 2012
From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 02:54:03 -0300 
Subject: Mac PALs (was: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft)
In-Reply-To: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>
References: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201206210554.q5L5sHSK036120@billy.ezwind.net>

Tony Duell wrote on Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:01:06 +0100 (BST)
> I haev my own compelte scheamtics of the Mac+ (both boards, keyboard, 
> mouse, disk drive), but of course nothing definite on the PALs.

Back in 2005 someone posted the sources for all the PALs, I looked at
them, but didn't save a local copy. A quick search only showed the
source for the TSM  (timing state machine) circuit in

> http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=26198

I did a clean room implementation of the PALs in 1987 that was better
(27% performance increase over the original) but don't have a copy of
the sources (I do have access to a machine with the actual PALs with my
design, however).

Speaking of missing documentation, I also built 3 machines with the
68000 and 2 with the 68020 but didn't keep any of the documentation
(other than pictures of two of them). I am not sure building something
like that today is such an interesting project. If you do it in
wirewrap, then having everything 16 (or 32) bits wide can get very
tiring. You could go with the 68008 to deal with this, but a 6809
machine would be almost as fast and the components would be easier to
find.

-- Jecel

p.s,: here are the PAL equations copied from the thread I mentioned
above (in case people have problems getting to it in the future):

16MBUF C16M 8M MU RAMEN ROMEN AS UDS LDS GND
TSEN CAS0 CAS1 RAS TC 1M 4M 2M DTACK VCC

RAS: = /4M * /RAS +
8M* 4m * /RAS +
/8M * 4M * /2M * /RAS +
8M * /4M * 1M * RAS +
8M * /4M * /1M * 2M * RAS +
/8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * LDS +
/8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * UDS +
/8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * /LDS * /UDS * /CAS0 +

TC:= 8M+
/4M +
2M +
/1M +
RAS

1M: = /8M * 4M * /2M * 1M * /RAS +
/1M * 8M * /4M * /RAS +
/1M * /8M * 4M * 2M * /RAS +
/1M * RAS +
/1M * /8M * /4M * /RAS +
/1M * 8M * 4M * /RAS

4M: = 1M * RAS +
8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * 2M +
/8M * /4M * /1M * RAS +
8M * /4M * 2M * /1M * RAS +
/8M * 4M * /2M * /RAS +
there may be a line missing here.....

2M: = /C16M * /8M * /4M * /RAS+
/2M + /8M + /4M +
/2M + /1M + * /TC +
C16M * /2M +
/C16M * /8M * /4M * /1M * RAS * /ROMEN * /RAMEN * /AS +
/2M * 4M +
/2M * 8M * /4M *1M * MU

DTACK:= /C16M * /8M * /4M * /RAS * /AS * /ROMEN * RAMEN +
/C16M * /8M * /4M * /1M * /RAS * /AS * /RAMEN * ROMEN +
/C16M * /8M * /4M * 1M * /RAS * /AS * /RAMEN * ROMEN * /MU +
/C16M * /8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * /AS * /RAMEN * /ROMEN +
/DTACK * /UDS +
/DATACK * /LDS +
/DATACK * /RAS

CAS0: = 4M * /2M * /RAS * /DTACK * /RAMEN * ROMEN * /LDS * MU +
4M * /2M * 1M * /RAS * MU +
/CAS0 + /RAS +
8M + 4M + /2M * /1M * RAS * /DTACK +
/CAS0 * /2M + /1M

CAS1: = 4M * /2M * /RAS * /DTACK * /RAMEN * ROMEN * /UDS * MU +
4M * /2M * 1M * /RAS * MU +
/CAS1 + /RAS



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 01:36:16 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 07:36:16 +0100
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
In-Reply-To: <0822691F-577E-4E1F-A052-2F1D53226A7A@gmail.com>
References: <CABYXGGh_L_nhrEywe2LS0tR++tPR5+wiHDZhQigOcY5hA+T6VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0822691F-577E-4E1F-A052-2F1D53226A7A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE2C0E0.2010507@gmail.com>

On 20/06/2012 19:21, Raymond Wiker wrote:
> On Jun 20, 2012, at 14:51 , Dave Wade wrote:
>> Well we have had all the fun with 68K designs, but I would really like
>> to build a 6809 system. Any one know of a source for boards for a
>> simple system with say Serial Port and Parallel Port and memory?
> Vince Briel is working on a 6809 system; see http://www.brielcomputers.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1035
Thats really neat. I like the concepts...

-- 
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



From silent700 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 02:04:57 2012
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 02:04:57 -0500
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206210019200.18973@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <53154ED619E541ACA62540666490CFEF@G4UGMT41>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206210019200.18973@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SFB7qsW=be2qfVn9tOARmkHBvVvzrB_n6kXn7e20GZWhA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:28 AM, Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:
> There are different types of pens too. There are liquid ink roller ball pins
> and fibertip (marker) pens. The fibertip pens also come in two varieties,
> one for paper and another for transparencies.

Plotters are a lot of fun.  They're fascinating to watch, they create
an output not quite reproducible by other technologies and, with the
appropriate job sent to them, they teach patience :)

A listmember passed this site to me recently.  Not only do they sell
pens for a lot of the plotters out there, they have a very handy
cross-ref chart to match pens to plotters (and figure out which models
are rebadged and might use a pen you already have.)

http://www.thetestequipmentstore.com/plotter_pens_charts.htm

I've got a Digital LVP16, as well as the equivalent HP model.  The LVP
uses the same pen as the HP, as do many of the plotters listed there.
Those two are multi-pen models.  I've also got a couple smaller HP
models which are monochrome.  And let's not forget the Commodore VIC
plotter :)

My problem with the multi-pen models is not pens, it's the pen
carousels.  I've identified the HP part # for them (apologize for not
having it handy) but all sources list $sillyprices and are
out-of-stock anyway.

Anyone have a source for those?

j


From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu Jun 21 02:29:02 2012
From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 09:29:02 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: TinyBASIC in HP2645A (was: Converting terminals into computers
 (was: Re: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles))
In-Reply-To: <4D1C81D5-BB82-4AD2-808D-57D06FD28CE0@allegro.com>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
 <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com>
 <E1Sc0Vo-0005fb-BR@shell.xmission.com>
 <4D1C81D5-BB82-4AD2-808D-57D06FD28CE0@allegro.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.63.1206210916460.424@azu.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012, Stan Sieler wrote:

> Re:
> On Jun 5, 2012, at 1:37 PM, Richard wrote:
>> In article <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620 at allegro.com>,
>>    Stan Sieler <ss at allegro.com> writes:
>>
>>> (Of course, later TinyBASIC was ported to the HP2645A)
>>
>> I'd like to hear more about this; is there a link online somewhere?
>
....
> Other games I recall: "Keep On Drivin'", and possible Pong or Centipede?,
> and Space Invaders.  (All were distributed on cartridge tape, most were
> capable of being loaded via the serial port as well.)
>
> Stan
>
We have working copies of these games: Keep on Drivin', Pong, Hacman
and Space Invaders run on our hp 2648 with a 8080 processor, and we
also have a version of Pong for hp 2644 with 8008 processor. Naturally
we saved them on our ftp-server. I never tried to load them via the
serial line, but would be interested to do that, because the cassettes
degrade more and more. Until now we didn't find a solution for the
dissolving drivebelts inside the small DCs.

You can find the files on our ftp-server:
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/
in the subdirectories 2644 and 2648. Pong is named by the german
word "tennis".

Klemens


--

klemens krause
Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing.
http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de



From halarewich at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 02:48:05 2012
From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 00:48:05 -0700
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <4FE29EF6.50407@neurotica.com>
References: <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <5948AB34305E487A96B9A5AECF755E58@G4UGMT41>
 <SNT129-W11091223054A4F98AAFB4EA3FD0@phx.gbl>
 <4FE29EF6.50407@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CA+A6M=ghyZ3Eu5r9BAUqZMQHkYLQkezp6APyok_6W==eRANAvw@mail.gmail.com>

looks like this page does

http://www.thetestequipmentstore.com/plotter_pens_charts.htm

*Hewlett Packard* *7004B, 7005B, 7010A, 7015A, 7034A, 7035B, 7040A, 7045A,
7200, 7201, 7202, 7203, 7230, 7210, 9125, 9862* *1CY14P3N Black
------------------------------
1CY14NP3G Green
------------------------------
1CY14P3R Red
------------------------------
1CY14P3B Blue* *P3=Nib Size 0.3mm*       *$17.00/Pkg of 5     $2.00 Shipping
*

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 9:11 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:

> On 06/20/2012 11:29 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
>
>>  I have a HP7044A that I use with my analog computer. I see both the
>> 7044A and 7044B come up on ebay relatively often. The pens are a little
>> hard to get but there is a place in Arizona that sells various hard to
>> get pens.
>>
>
>  Does that plotter take the pre-7475-style pens with the two little
> plastic "ears" on the sides, that you insert and turn to lock?  I have a
> 7015B that takes those, and I'm looking for pens.   If you think this place
> would have those, would you please send me their contact information?
>
>            Thanks,
>
>            -Dave
>
> --
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA
>


From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Thu Jun 21 03:53:47 2012
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 10:53:47 +0200
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <120AB39043F643DEABCCDE6DD7EC6310@G4UGMT41>
References: <m1ShRf4-000J4cC@p850ug1>
 <120AB39043F643DEABCCDE6DD7EC6310@G4UGMT41>
Message-ID: <003b01cd4f8b$62ba7e10$282f7a30$@xs4all.nl>

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
> > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell
> > Sent: 20 June 2012 21:38
> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: Re: Weird Prices on E-Bay
> >
> >
> > >   IBM rebadged and resold the HP 7470 and 7475 plotters.  That's
> >
> > I thought htere were minor mechancial differneces too, it wasn't a
> > simple rebadging. IIRC when loading paper into the hP one, you have to
> > line the edge up with a mark on the plotter. With the IBM one,
> > there;'s little plastic stop that's raised when you flip the load
> > lever, you just put the paper against that.
> >
> > -tony
> >
> Early HP plotters have the strip. Later ones don't...

For who is interested I do have a HP 7550A with manuals and extra carousel
(and I think I also have the serial cable) available.
Item is located in the Netherlands, so I think it's only interesting for
people in Europe.
If interested contact me off-list.

-Rik



From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Thu Jun 21 04:12:45 2012
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 11:12:45 +0200
Subject: Three Tons of Minicomputers
Message-ID: <20120621091245.GC10246@Update.UU.SE>

Hi

This is a shameless plug for something I and the Update Computer Club 
have been working on this spring and opened yesterday.

The exhibition "Three Tons of Minicomputers" at Museum Gustavianum in 
Uppsala, Sweden.

We have collected computers primarily used by the university at some 
point in time. Highlights include a Linc-8 and a DECSYSTEM-2060 with 
peripherals.

Here are some pictures from the opening:

http://www.update.uu.se/~jeppe/tmp/vernissage/

I strongly recommend anyone nearby Uppsala this summer to take a swing 
by Gustavianum. If you want a guided tour, let me know and we'll figure 
something out.

It's only open for a few months, so don't wait to long.

Regards,
Pontus.



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 08:44:23 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 10:44:23 -0300
Subject: Mac PALs (was: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft)
References: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>
 <201206210554.q5L5sHSK036120@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <08ea01cd4fb4$2318d530$6400a8c0@tababook>


    /me bows to Jecel :oD

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jecel Assumpcao Jr." <jecel at merlintec.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 2:54 AM
Subject: Mac PALs (was: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft)


> Tony Duell wrote on Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:01:06 +0100 (BST)
>> I haev my own compelte scheamtics of the Mac+ (both boards, keyboard,
>> mouse, disk drive), but of course nothing definite on the PALs.
>
> Back in 2005 someone posted the sources for all the PALs, I looked at
> them, but didn't save a local copy. A quick search only showed the
> source for the TSM  (timing state machine) circuit in
>
>> http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=26198
>
> I did a clean room implementation of the PALs in 1987 that was better
> (27% performance increase over the original) but don't have a copy of
> the sources (I do have access to a machine with the actual PALs with my
> design, however).
>
> Speaking of missing documentation, I also built 3 machines with the
> 68000 and 2 with the 68020 but didn't keep any of the documentation
> (other than pictures of two of them). I am not sure building something
> like that today is such an interesting project. If you do it in
> wirewrap, then having everything 16 (or 32) bits wide can get very
> tiring. You could go with the 68008 to deal with this, but a 6809
> machine would be almost as fast and the components would be easier to
> find.
>
> -- Jecel
>
> p.s,: here are the PAL equations copied from the thread I mentioned
> above (in case people have problems getting to it in the future):
>
> 16MBUF C16M 8M MU RAMEN ROMEN AS UDS LDS GND
> TSEN CAS0 CAS1 RAS TC 1M 4M 2M DTACK VCC
>
> RAS: = /4M * /RAS +
> 8M* 4m * /RAS +
> /8M * 4M * /2M * /RAS +
> 8M * /4M * 1M * RAS +
> 8M * /4M * /1M * 2M * RAS +
> /8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * LDS +
> /8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * UDS +
> /8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * /LDS * /UDS * /CAS0 +
>
> TC:= 8M+
> /4M +
> 2M +
> /1M +
> RAS
>
> 1M: = /8M * 4M * /2M * 1M * /RAS +
> /1M * 8M * /4M * /RAS +
> /1M * /8M * 4M * 2M * /RAS +
> /1M * RAS +
> /1M * /8M * /4M * /RAS +
> /1M * 8M * 4M * /RAS
>
> 4M: = 1M * RAS +
> 8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * 2M +
> /8M * /4M * /1M * RAS +
> 8M * /4M * 2M * /1M * RAS +
> /8M * 4M * /2M * /RAS +
> there may be a line missing here.....
>
> 2M: = /C16M * /8M * /4M * /RAS+
> /2M + /8M + /4M +
> /2M + /1M + * /TC +
> C16M * /2M +
> /C16M * /8M * /4M * /1M * RAS * /ROMEN * /RAMEN * /AS +
> /2M * 4M +
> /2M * 8M * /4M *1M * MU
>
> DTACK:= /C16M * /8M * /4M * /RAS * /AS * /ROMEN * RAMEN +
> /C16M * /8M * /4M * /1M * /RAS * /AS * /RAMEN * ROMEN +
> /C16M * /8M * /4M * 1M * /RAS * /AS * /RAMEN * ROMEN * /MU +
> /C16M * /8M * 4M * /1M * RAS * /AS * /RAMEN * /ROMEN +
> /DTACK * /UDS +
> /DATACK * /LDS +
> /DATACK * /RAS
>
> CAS0: = 4M * /2M * /RAS * /DTACK * /RAMEN * ROMEN * /LDS * MU +
> 4M * /2M * 1M * /RAS * MU +
> /CAS0 + /RAS +
> 8M + 4M + /2M * /1M * RAS * /DTACK +
> /CAS0 * /2M + /1M
>
> CAS1: = 4M * /2M * /RAS * /DTACK * /RAMEN * ROMEN * /UDS * MU +
> 4M * /2M * 1M * /RAS * MU +
> /CAS1 + /RAS
> 



From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 21 08:46:04 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 06:46:04 -0700
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <4FE29EF6.50407@neurotica.com>
References: <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, ,
 <5948AB34305E487A96B9A5AECF755E58@G4UGMT41>,
 <SNT129-W11091223054A4F98AAFB4EA3FD0@phx.gbl>, <4FE29EF6.50407@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W4743339AB0069E8A11D914A3FD0@phx.gbl>



> From: mcguire at neurotica.com
> 
> On 06/20/2012 11:29 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
> > I have a HP7044A that I use with my analog computer. I see both the
> > 7044A and 7044B come up on ebay relatively often. The pens are a little
> > hard to get but there is a place in Arizona that sells various hard to get pens.
> 
> Does that plotter take the pre-7475-style pens with the two little 
> plastic "ears" on the sides, that you insert and turn to lock? I have a 
> 7015B that takes those, and I'm looking for pens. If you think this 
> place would have those, would you please send me their contact information?
> 
> Thanks,
> -Dave
> 
> -- 
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA

Hi Dave
 It looks like the other guys beat me to it. That is
the place I bought my pens from.
They seem to have pens for just about anything.
Dwight
  		 	   		  

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 21 08:55:37 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 06:55:37 -0700
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <4FE29EF6.50407@neurotica.com>
References: <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, ,
 <5948AB34305E487A96B9A5AECF755E58@G4UGMT41>,
 <SNT129-W11091223054A4F98AAFB4EA3FD0@phx.gbl>, <4FE29EF6.50407@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W17F4D16AE6DC877522BDEEA3FD0@phx.gbl>


Hi
 They don't list the 7044A on their chart but the
1CY14xx pens work fine on it as well. I see that they
have Dave's plotter list though.
Dwight
  		 	   		  

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 21 09:10:11 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 07:10:11 -0700
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W4743339AB0069E8A11D914A3FD0@phx.gbl>
References: <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>,
 , , <5948AB34305E487A96B9A5AECF755E58@G4UGMT41>, ,
 <SNT129-W11091223054A4F98AAFB4EA3FD0@phx.gbl>, 
 <4FE29EF6.50407@neurotica.com>,<SNT129-W4743339AB0069E8A11D914A3FD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W56C2A49BEFF3041CEB3534A3FD0@phx.gbl>



 

> From: dkelvey at hotmail.com
> 
> > From: mcguire at neurotica.com
> > 
> > On 06/20/2012 11:29 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
> > > I have a HP7044A that I use with my analog computer. I see both the
> > > 7044A and 7044B come up on ebay relatively often. The pens are a little
> > > hard to get but there is a place in Arizona that sells various hard to get pens.
> > 
> > Does that plotter take the pre-7475-style pens with the two little 
> > plastic "ears" on the sides, that you insert and turn to lock? I have a 
> > 7015B that takes those, and I'm looking for pens. If you think this 
> > place would have those, would you please send me their contact information?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > -Dave
> > 
> > -- 
> > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> > New Kensington, PA
> 
> Hi Dave
> It looks like the other guys beat me to it. That is
> the place I bought my pens from.
> They seem to have pens for just about anything.
> Dwight
> 

Oops. They don't have pens for my F.L.Moseley model 135 :(
Dwight
  		 	   		  

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 10:59:31 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 16:59:31 +0100
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W4743339AB0069E8A11D914A3FD0@phx.gbl>
References: <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, ,
 <5948AB34305E487A96B9A5AECF755E58@G4UGMT41>,
 <SNT129-W11091223054A4F98AAFB4EA3FD0@phx.gbl>,
 <4FE29EF6.50407@neurotica.com> <SNT129-W4743339AB0069E8A11D914A3FD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4FE344E3.3060204@gmail.com>

On 21/06/2012 14:46, dwight elvey wrote:
>
>> From: mcguire at neurotica.com
>>
>> On 06/20/2012 11:29 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
>>> I have a HP7044A that I use with my analog computer. I see both the
>>> 7044A and 7044B come up on ebay relatively often. The pens are a little
>>> hard to get but there is a place in Arizona that sells various hard to get pens.
>> Does that plotter take the pre-7475-style pens with the two little
>> plastic "ears" on the sides, that you insert and turn to lock? I have a
>> 7015B that takes those, and I'm looking for pens. If you think this
>> place would have those, would you please send me their contact information?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Dave
>>
>> -- 
>> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
>> New Kensington, PA
> Hi Dave
>   It looks like the other guys beat me to it. That is
> the place I bought my pens from.
> They seem to have pens for just about anything.
> Dwight
>    		 	   		
They don't seem to have any for my Hitachi plotter.  Looks like these 
folks have some:-

http://www.draftingfurniture.com/listings/Plotterpens.html#2

what I really want are some Staedtler32B23 or 31B23Fiber-tip pens but 
looks like these are long discontinued.



-- 
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



From shumaker at att.net  Thu Jun 21 11:03:51 2012
From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:03:51 -0400
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SFB7qsW=be2qfVn9tOARmkHBvVvzrB_n6kXn7e20GZWhA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <53154ED619E541ACA62540666490CFEF@G4UGMT41>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206210019200.18973@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <CAEfH1SFB7qsW=be2qfVn9tOARmkHBvVvzrB_n6kXn7e20GZWhA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE345E7.9030603@att.net>

not sure your location but WeirdStuff in Sunnyvale occasionally gets 
carousels as surplus

steve

get caro     On 6/21/2012 3:04 AM, Jason T wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:28 AM, Tothwolf<tothwolf at concentric.net>  wrote:
>    
>> There are different types of pens too. There are liquid ink roller ball pins
>> and fibertip (marker) pens. The fibertip pens also come in two varieties,
>> one for paper and another for transparencies.
>>      
> Plotters are a lot of fun.  They're fascinating to watch, they create
> an output not quite reproducible by other technologies and, with the
> appropriate job sent to them, they teach patience :)
>
> A listmember passed this site to me recently.  Not only do they sell
> pens for a lot of the plotters out there, they have a very handy
> cross-ref chart to match pens to plotters (and figure out which models
> are rebadged and might use a pen you already have.)
>
> http://www.thetestequipmentstore.com/plotter_pens_charts.htm
>
> I've got a Digital LVP16, as well as the equivalent HP model.  The LVP
> uses the same pen as the HP, as do many of the plotters listed there.
> Those two are multi-pen models.  I've also got a couple smaller HP
> models which are monochrome.  And let's not forget the Commodore VIC
> plotter :)
>
> My problem with the multi-pen models is not pens, it's the pen
> carousels.  I've identified the HP part # for them (apologize for not
> having it handy) but all sources list $sillyprices and are
> out-of-stock anyway.
>
> Anyone have a source for those?
>
> j
>
>    



From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 21 12:17:50 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 10:17:50 -0700
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W56C2A49BEFF3041CEB3534A3FD0@phx.gbl>
References: <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>,,, ,
 <5948AB34305E487A96B9A5AECF755E58@G4UGMT41>,
 , , <SNT129-W11091223054A4F98AAFB4EA3FD0@phx.gbl>, ,
 <4FE29EF6.50407@neurotica.com>, <SNT129-W4743339AB0069E8A11D914A3FD0@phx.gbl>,
 <SNT129-W56C2A49BEFF3041CEB3534A3FD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W44CE8F0EB810593FFAB331A3FD0@phx.gbl>



 > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com
> 
> Oops. They don't have pens for my F.L.Moseley model 135 :(
> Dwight
>   		 	   		  
Hi All Reminded of this, I did a search for Moseley and found an articlethat said that Moseley was bought out by HP. It seems that HPXY plotters got their start with Moseley.The plot thickens ( pun intended ).The search also brought up one of the ebay searches for plotters.There was an early add for a Moseley plotter but also a number ofother XY plotters as well as manuals.Looking to see what was there, I came on a buy it now fora HP 135/135A plotter maintanence manual. I blow up the pictureand what do you think. The knob pannel looked just like my plotter.A closer look even had the Moseley lable on it.I went ahead and bought it of course.I'd been trying to fix the one I had but it looked like the outputtransistors had been failing ( older germanium types ).I'd tried to trace the wiring but it is difficult without cutting thewire ties, that I didn't want to do.With the manual, I'll no longer need to do this.It is interesting, how it works though. Instead of a DC servo motor,it uses an AC synchro motor. It chops the error signal and uses thatto drive the motor. A clever way to avoid DC offset with the earlytransistors.I did get a kick out of one of the ebay adds. The wanted about $200for a plotter and said it was in excellent condition. In the picture,one could clearly see two of the switch toggles broken off. Oops!Dwight  		 	   		  

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 12:29:14 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:29:14 -0400
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W44CE8F0EB810593FFAB331A3FD0@phx.gbl>
References: <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <5948AB34305E487A96B9A5AECF755E58@G4UGMT41>
 <SNT129-W11091223054A4F98AAFB4EA3FD0@phx.gbl>
 <4FE29EF6.50407@neurotica.com>
 <SNT129-W4743339AB0069E8A11D914A3FD0@phx.gbl>
 <SNT129-W56C2A49BEFF3041CEB3534A3FD0@phx.gbl>
 <SNT129-W44CE8F0EB810593FFAB331A3FD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcqLjwB-f-uGMG9dEY7eokmJEPMoPchrRNwJxoryg5vOA@mail.gmail.com>

Reminded by this, I realize that I still have an old Moseley plotter
that I offered a few months back, but nothing really came of it
(obviously). It is actually marked Hewlett Packard Moseley Division,
so it dates to the transition. I forget the model number - maybe 201?

It does need a cleanup, and I do not know what electrical shape it is
in. Cheap! Not horribly big or heavy! Located in 10512!

> Hi All Reminded of this, I did a search for Moseley and found an articlethat said that Moseley was bought out by HP. It seems that HPXY plotters got their start with Moseley.The plot thickens ( pun intended ).The search also brought up one of the ebay searches for plotters.There was an early add for a Moseley plotter but also a number ofother XY plotters as well as manuals.Looking to see what was there, I came on a buy it now fora HP 135/135A plotter maintanence manual. I blow up the pictureand what do you think. The knob pannel looked just like my plotter.A closer look even had the Moseley lable on it.I went ahead and bought it of course.I'd been trying to fix the one I had but it looked like the outputtransistors had been failing ( older germanium types ).I'd tried to trace the wiring but it is difficult without cutting thewire ties, that I didn't want to do.With the manual, I'll no longer need to do this.It is interesting, how it works though. Instead of a DC servo motor,it uses an AC synchro motor. It chops the error signal and uses thatto drive the motor. A clever way to avoid DC offset with the earlytransistors.I did get a kick out of one of the ebay adds. The wanted about $200for a plotter and said it was in excellent condition. In the picture,one could clearly see two of the switch toggles broken off. Oops!Dwight

--
Will



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Jun 21 13:09:31 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 14:09:31 -0400
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W4743339AB0069E8A11D914A3FD0@phx.gbl>
References: <20120619220856.0D80BA580E5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, ,
 <5948AB34305E487A96B9A5AECF755E58@G4UGMT41>,
 <SNT129-W11091223054A4F98AAFB4EA3FD0@phx.gbl>,
 <4FE29EF6.50407@neurotica.com> <SNT129-W4743339AB0069E8A11D914A3FD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4FE3635B.2000905@neurotica.com>

On 06/21/2012 09:46 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
>>> I have a HP7044A that I use with my analog computer. I see both the
>>> 7044A and 7044B come up on ebay relatively often. The pens are a little
>>> hard to get but there is a place in Arizona that sells various hard to get pens.
>>
>> Does that plotter take the pre-7475-style pens with the two little 
>> plastic "ears" on the sides, that you insert and turn to lock? I have a 
>> 7015B that takes those, and I'm looking for pens. If you think this 
>> place would have those, would you please send me their contact information?
> 
>  It looks like the other guys beat me to it. That is
> the place I bought my pens from.
> They seem to have pens for just about anything.

  Excellent.  Thanks everyone!  I'm going to use this plotter to help a
local friend understand R/C time constants. (he's a "hands on" guy like
me, we can understand things much more deeply if we see them in action),
then it will live with my analog computers.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 21 12:35:12 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 18:35:12 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Smartphones was RE: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie
 64, 
In-Reply-To: <B5E367D5654F4D97BEBEE3225D7C9600@G4UGMT41> from "Dave" at Jun 20,
 12 11:36:06 pm
Message-ID: <m1ShlHq-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> > Actually, I can't understand why anyone would choose to use a 
> > computational device where they can't run the software they want, 
> > including software they've writen themselves. But anyway..
> > 
> 
> Quite so, but most folks don't want to write software they want something
> that works just enough so they can do what they want to do. They don't ask

Ah, but this is a (mostly) technical list, there are some very goo 
programmers here. People who culd surely write their own MUA if they 
wanted to.

> "is there a choice of apps" just "is there an app".  Even worse is the
> removal of programming interfaces from web browsers, so on a desktop PC I
> can happily order an iPhone or iPad from Tesco (think UK equivalent of
> Wallmart) on their web site. If I want to order anything on an iPhone I
> can't I need the Tesco "app". Yuk

I ahve laernt over the years that anything described as 'smart' is 
designed for users who are 'fumb' and that therefore it won't be 
hacker-friendly (OK I am perhaps goign a bit far, but only a bit). I ahbe 
also conculded that 'digital' emans 'inferior' (not the Digital Equipment 
Corporation, of course :-)). 
> > it#'s asking for information and goes against the 
> > conventions, then I am 
> > not going to bother to tke the time to  untagle it and then 
> 
> What does "untagle" mean? I thought I was the only one whose brain went

Err, 'untangle'.

> faster then their fingers...

Err, no. Particularly not when I've had a hard day...

> .. or is it something you have to do with paper tape to get it to spool...

No. It's soemthing you have to do with paper tape if you haven't spooled 
it up as you read it. It's also something you have to do with cables that 
you've left sitting in a box. There are topological theorems about tying 
knots, but cables seem to defy them :-)

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 21 12:39:34 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 18:39:34 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <20120620173546.V93886@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 20,
 12 05:41:38 pm
Message-ID: <m1ShlM3-000J4WC@p850ug1>

> 
> I like the idea of the TRS80 Model 16. (part of the model 2/12/15 family
> of 8" drive based machines)
> 
> Unlike model 1/3/4, which have LOTS of reverse engineering and stuff
> written, the model 2 TRS-DOS is very UNDER-documented.  (Talk to Eric!)

Unfortunately, althoguh I am somethign of a TRS-80 enthusiast (having 
started with a Mdoel 1 way back when) I've not obtained any of the 
2/12/16 machines -- yet!

I assume there ws a service amnaul available, since there seems to have 
been one for every otehr Radio Shack product (even pocket radios, 
cassette recorders, etc). There was most likely a technical refernce 
manaul too, since there was oen for the other computers. Do these still 
exist anywhere? 

> 
> But, the Z80 side of it (model 2) will run CP/M, and has several different
> implementations, including Lifeboat, Pickles & Trout, etc.
> 
> TRS80 was not well respected.  I gravely offended an acquaintance by

And given my expeiriences I've never understood why not. My M1/3/4 and 
CoCo machiens ahve been pretty reliable.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 21 12:48:56 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 18:48:56 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206210012420.18973@brioche.invalid.domain> from
 "Tothwolf" at Jun 21, 12 00:19:00 am
Message-ID: <m1ShlV8-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> 
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> >> Sadly I am a bit of a plotter nut. I have an HDS 681, HP7475A, Roland
> >
> > As am I. I'd actually quite liek a 7550 (there's a 68000 processor in
> > them IIRC), but I am not paying $2000 + shipping for one :-)
> 
> What's not to love about old plotters? They are full of all sorts of 
> interesting electromechanical engineering :)

Does anyone else here have an HP7245? Thia is (I kid you not) a thermal 
printer/plotter.

IT takes special sproketed thermal paper (which is unobtainium nwo, I 
have a few boxes I use for demonstrations). There's one stepper motor 
driving a sproketec roller to feed the paper. And anotehr to move the 
printhead across the paper.

The printhead has (IIRC) 13 heater elements on it. 12 are in a diagonal 
line and are used for printing text (it can print both across and up/down 
the page, hence the diagonal arangement of the elelemts). In this mode, 
it prints dot matrix chracters i nthe usual way.

teh 13th element is used for plotting. In this mode, the paper and 
carriage are moved like a pen plotter, the element is turned when the 
'pen' should be 'down'. Oh yes, the element temperature is controlled 
depending on the speed of motion to keep a constant line intensity.

It has an HPIB interface and repsonds to 2 consequtive addresses (AFAIK 
these don't have to only differ in the LSB, they could be addresses 7 an 
8, for example). One address is used for printing, you send ASCII text to 
it and it prints it. THe other is used for plotting, you send HPGL 
commands there.

The control electronics uses an HP 'nanoprocessor' with the normal ROM 
and RAM. And a lot of TTL for the motor contorl and HPIB interfaces. Oh, 
and the PSU is one of those that uou hope never to repair, it's a complex 
switcher spread over about 5 boards.

It's certainly a fun device us play with once in a while...

> 
> About the only other computer-related technology I find on par with old 
> plotters in this regard are optical disc changers and automated tape 
> libraries.

I find some of the electromechanical teleprinter terminals (Teleypes, 
etc) to be fascinating to watch in operation.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 21 13:30:26 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 19:30:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W44CE8F0EB810593FFAB331A3FD0@phx.gbl> from "dwight elvey"
 at Jun 21, 12 10:17:50 am
Message-ID: <m1Shm9K-000J4eC@p850ug1>

[...]

> ll no longer need to do this.It is interesting=2C how it works though. Inst=
> ead of a DC servo motor=2Cit uses an AC synchro motor. It chops the error s=
> ignal and uses thatto drive the motor. A clever way to avoid DC offset with=

That was not at all uncommon in  ploters (and chart recorders) using 
valve amplifiers (a 'chart recorder' here is a device with one 
votlage-cotnroled axis (moving the pen across the papar) and one time 
axis (moving the paper at a constant speed using a synchronos motor and 
gearbox).

WHt was often done in such unts was to take the DC error voltage optained 
by the differnece between the input nad the slidewire position. THis was 
then choppend by a vibrating reed device eneerginsed from the heater 
winding (normlally). The resulting signal conld then be amplifieed in a 
normal AC-coupled valve amplifier. The amplitude of the output was then 
the magnitude of the eorror (and thus couple be used to cotnrol the speed 
of the motor), wehter it was in phase or anitphase iwth the heater 
winding gave the direction. The output of said amplifier drove one 
winding of a 2 phase motor, the other widing being mains-supplied (maybe 
from a transformer winging).

Certainly that Houston Instruments unit I mentioned last night works like 
this. So do the (well-known over here) Honeywell-Brown 'continuos 
balance' chart recorders.

One minor problem for running thse units now. THe votlage acorss the 
sliderwire needs to be constant And may need to be flpating wrt to 
ground. In smome units, this was provided by a mercury cell. Or course 
those are now unobtainalbe. An alkaline AA cell will do for testing, but 
don't expect the thing to hold its calibration (if the voltage drops, the 
thing gets _more_ sensitive). It's not hard to make up a PSU though.

-tony



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 21 13:48:50 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 11:48:50 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <m1ShlM3-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <20120620173546.V93886@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 20,
 12 05:41:38 pm, <m1ShlM3-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FE30A22.11535.8211CA@cclist.sydex.com>

On 21 Jun 2012 at 18:39, Tony Duell wrote:

> I assume there ws a service amnaul available, since there seems to
> have been one for every otehr Radio Shack product (even pocket radios,
> cassette recorders, etc). There was most likely a technical refernce
> manaul too, since there was oen for the other computers. Do these
> still exist anywhere? 

There's some on the web, certainly.  Enough to work on the system.

> > TRS80 was not well respected.  I gravely offended an acquaintance by
> 
> And given my expeiriences I've never understood why not. My M1/3/4 and
> CoCo machiens ahve been pretty reliable.

Mostly because of Tandy's terrible *mechanical*  engineering.  In the 
16, the enclosure is flimsy, getting access to the cards will rip 
your fingers to shreds, there are no guides on the card cage and 
cooling design seems like an afterthought.  Perhaps my expectations 
for a $5000 (minimum system configuration) computer were unrealistic.

And don't get me started on the quality of Tandon engineering (the 
Model 16 uses two TM848 drives).

--Chuck



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 13:49:03 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 15:49:03 -0300
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
References: <m1ShlV8-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <0bbe01cd4fde$8e1f6a90$6400a8c0@tababook>

> IT takes special sproketed thermal paper (which is unobtainium nwo, I
> have a few boxes I use for demonstrations). There's one stepper motor
> driving a sproketec roller to feed the paper. And anotehr to move the
> printhead across the paper.

    I believe you can easily make a machine to turn fax paper into 
sprocketed paper :)

> teh 13th element is used for plotting. In this mode, the paper and
> carriage are moved like a pen plotter, the element is turned when the
> 'pen' should be 'down'. Oh yes, the element temperature is controlled
> depending on the speed of motion to keep a constant line intensity.

    Uau!

> The control electronics uses an HP 'nanoprocessor' with the normal ROM
> and RAM. And a lot of TTL for the motor contorl and HPIB interfaces. Oh,
> and the PSU is one of those that uou hope never to repair, it's a complex
> switcher spread over about 5 boards.

    Uau 2.0 the mission! :oD

    I have an analogic plotter from HP but I don't remember the model...I'll 
look for that :D 



From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 21 14:07:29 2012
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 21:07:29 +0200
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
In-Reply-To: <03a101cd4f25$03a34b70$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <CABYXGGh_L_nhrEywe2LS0tR++tPR5+wiHDZhQigOcY5hA+T6VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds4172D08BE6E6632931D1E86FE0@phx.gbl>
 <03a101cd4f25$03a34b70$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <BAY155-ds2147925A1ADE08C8383D8C86FD0@phx.gbl>

From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 10:40 PM
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System

>> The Blinkenlight board has an 6809, EPROM, RAM, PIA and ACIA.
>> An additional (small) board gives you 64 input and 64 output (all TTL),
>> but you loose the PIA interface in that case.
>> Have a look at my website (www.pdp-11.nl  [My projects]).
>> I do NOT have the boards nor a kit, but ask Vince!
>
>    I haven't seen blinkenlight board in your links :oO...Ah, the Home Made 
> PDP-11? :oD I'll give it a try..would you have a spare core/io boards? :)
>
>> - Henk, PA8PDP
>
>    Man, I LOVE this call sign :oD

Nope Alexandre, I do not have those boards. Ask (pdp8 specialist) Vince.
I think he still has some bare Core and I/O boards, and maybe also some
of the major parts (like CPU, ACI and PIA). You can download a PDF from
my website which describes the (simple) hardware.

I could choose my call when I passed the morse code exam. It was the
last morse code exam taken by the government. But since then, I moved
away from PDP8 stuff, because I simply can not afford nor have the space
to start another line of machines. Having pretty much all QBUS and
UNIBUS PDP-11's and several peripherals eats a lot of space!

- Henk, PA8PDP 



From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Jun 21 14:20:06 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:20:06 -0700
Subject: Mac PALs
In-Reply-To: <201206210554.q5L5sHSK036120@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>
 <201206210554.q5L5sHSK036120@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <4FE373E6.4090208@brouhaha.com>

Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote:
> I did a clean room implementation of the PALs in 1987 that was better 
> (27% performance increase over the original) but don't have a copy of 
> the sources (I do have access to a machine with the actual PALs with 
> my design, however).

I'd be interested in trying them if you can read them and post the JEDEC 
files as some point.  I suspect probably a few other people would be 
interested as well.

Best regards,
Eric



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 14:52:27 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 15:52:27 -0400
Subject: Mac PALs
In-Reply-To: <4FE373E6.4090208@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>
 <201206210554.q5L5sHSK036120@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4FE373E6.4090208@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <344EE6B0-5024-4AB3-B4D7-5D3B65535682@gmail.com>

On Jun 21, 2012, at 3:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote:
>> I did a clean room implementation of the PALs in 1987 that was better (27% performance increase over the original) but don't have a copy of the sources (I do have access to a machine with the actual PALs with my design, however).
> 
> I'd be interested in trying them if you can read them and post the JEDEC files as some point.  I suspect probably a few other people would be interested as well.

I know I would, mostly from a historical perspective.  JEDEC fuse
maps are pretty easy to turn back into equations.


- Dave




From vrs at msn.com  Thu Jun 21 15:24:31 2012
From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:24:31 -0700
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
In-Reply-To: <BAY155-ds2147925A1ADE08C8383D8C86FD0@phx.gbl>
References: <CABYXGGh_L_nhrEywe2LS0tR++tPR5+wiHDZhQigOcY5hA+T6VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds4172D08BE6E6632931D1E86FE0@phx.gbl>
 <03a101cd4f25$03a34b70$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <BAY155-ds2147925A1ADE08C8383D8C86FD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP46F35FEAD38220628605AEB2FD0@phx.gbl>



--------------------------------------------------
From: Henk Gooijen: Thursday, June 21, 2012 12:07 PM
> From: Alexandre Souza - Listas: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 10:40 PM
>>    I haven't seen blinkenlight board in your links :oO...Ah, the Home Made 
>> PDP-11? :oD I'll give it a try..would you have a spare core/io boards? :)
> 
> Nope Alexandre, I do not have those boards. Ask (pdp8 specialist) Vince.
> I think he still has some bare Core and I/O boards, and maybe also some
> of the major parts (like CPU, ACI and PIA). You can download a PDF from
> my website which describes the (simple) hardware.

I do indeed have several sets of boards and parts.  (Last I remember was 
ordering the parts to populate the remaining boards.)  I'll have to look up 
what we were charging for them.

    Vince
 


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 21 16:11:03 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 14:11:03 -0700
Subject: Mac PALs
In-Reply-To: <4FE373E6.4090208@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>,
 <201206210554.q5L5sHSK036120@billy.ezwind.net>,
 <4FE373E6.4090208@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4FE32B77.22451.10443FD@cclist.sydex.com>

On 21 Jun 2012 at 12:20, Eric Smith wrote:

> I'd be interested in trying them if you can read them and post the
> JEDEC files as some point.  I suspect probably a few other people
> would be interested as well.

Did Apple ever publish any information on their custom LSI on the 
Power Mac series?  IMOHO, that's what makes these machines 
essentially throwaway for anything but trivial problems.  You've got 
these big quad flatpacks with Apple house numbers and no clue 
whatsoever what's in them.

But maybe that's the idea--toss and get a new one if the old one 
doesn't work.  I wonder how many Macs ended up in the landfill 
because of a dead PRAM battery...

--Chuck



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 16:22:57 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 17:22:57 -0400
Subject: Mac PALs
In-Reply-To: <4FE32B77.22451.10443FD@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>,
 <201206210554.q5L5sHSK036120@billy.ezwind.net>,
 <4FE373E6.4090208@brouhaha.com> <4FE32B77.22451.10443FD@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <7D824D21-CC9F-4D66-B352-2B1ED8A6869D@gmail.com>

On Jun 21, 2012, at 5:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 21 Jun 2012 at 12:20, Eric Smith wrote:
> 
>> I'd be interested in trying them if you can read them and post the
>> JEDEC files as some point.  I suspect probably a few other people
>> would be interested as well.
> 
> Did Apple ever publish any information on their custom LSI on the 
> Power Mac series?  IMOHO, that's what makes these machines 
> essentially throwaway for anything but trivial problems.  You've got 
> these big quad flatpacks with Apple house numbers and no clue 
> whatsoever what's in them.

In a way, yes, but no one else was making chipsets for 68K or PPC
machines (or if they were, they were using their own custom logic,
too).  In the PC world, the market was big enough to sustain lots
of chipset vendors (though only VIA seems to have survived, and
I think SIS did in name only), but it's not like IBM was using
commodity chipsets for RS6000 machines.

Of course, Apple is still using a fair amount of custom logic for
its chipsets, last I checked.

As far as info on the custom LSI, I get the impression that info
is available for some of the chipsets in developer tech notes that
were shipped on the developer program CDs.  I'd love to see some
of those, but I've never come across a source (and I suspect it
wouldn't be strictly legal to distribute).  The brief overview
tech note on machines like the 9500 mentions the existence of
such documentation, but it's unclear how detailed that might be.

> But maybe that's the idea--toss and get a new one if the old one 
> doesn't work.  I wonder how many Macs ended up in the landfill 
> because of a dead PRAM battery...

I dunno.  I think it was more or less necessary once you passed
the complexity of an original 68000 if you wanted to keep the
machine small enough to fit on a desktop.  It does make them
more or less disposable in a way, but I've never found an old
Mac logic board where chipset failure was the problem unless
an exploded PRAM battery had corroded it off.


- Dave




From teoz at neo.rr.com  Thu Jun 21 16:25:07 2012
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 17:25:07 -0400
Subject: Mac PALs
References: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>,
 <201206210554.q5L5sHSK036120@billy.ezwind.net>,
 <4FE373E6.4090208@brouhaha.com> <4FE32B77.22451.10443FD@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <DE59AD0AC2A94279A008738D2CD7C6E9@hd2600xt6a04f7>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: Mac PALs


> Did Apple ever publish any information on their custom LSI on the
> Power Mac series?  IMOHO, that's what makes these machines
> essentially throwaway for anything but trivial problems.  You've got
> these big quad flatpacks with Apple house numbers and no clue
> whatsoever what's in them.
>

> --Chuck

Well the clones came about when the PPC line was around, so Apple must have 
given the specs for the chips out to Supermac, Radius, etc so they could 
build their own board designs.. 



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Jun 21 16:36:25 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 14:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <m1ShlM3-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <m1ShlM3-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20120621141758.X38618@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
> I assume there ws a service amnaul [Model 2/12/16] available, since
> there seems to have
> been one for every otehr Radio Shack product (even pocket radios,
> cassette recorders, etc). There was most likely a technical refernce
> manaul too, since there was oen for the other computers. Do these still
> exist anywhere?

There definitely WAS one.  (The Oakland RS "Computer Center" gave me one
after I bailed them out on interfacing a Votrax).
I have not seen it since I moved my office.  Perhaps I gave it to Eric?
Or put it somewhere where I can't lose it?

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Jun 21 16:38:35 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 14:38:35 -0700
Subject: Mac PALs
In-Reply-To: <7D824D21-CC9F-4D66-B352-2B1ED8A6869D@gmail.com>
References: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>,
 <201206210554.q5L5sHSK036120@billy.ezwind.net>,
 <4FE373E6.4090208@brouhaha.com> <4FE32B77.22451.10443FD@cclist.sydex.com>
 <7D824D21-CC9F-4D66-B352-2B1ED8A6869D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE3945B.5070100@bitsavers.org>

On 6/21/12 2:22 PM, David Riley wrote:

> As far as info on the custom LSI, I get the impression that info
> is available for some of the chipsets in developer tech notes that
> were shipped on the developer program CDs.  I'd love to see some
> of those, but I've never come across a source (and I suspect it
> wouldn't be strictly legal to distribute).  The brief overview
> tech note on machines like the 9500 mentions the existence of
> such documentation, but it's unclear how detailed that might be.
>

A fair bit is in the developer information for the CHRP platform,
and in the sources for Darwin, the BSDs, and Linux. A lot of work
has been going on with the Mac driver in MESS also, esp on how the
floppy interfaces work.

Something like an 030 LC class machine wouldn't be that hard to run
down to the bare metal, given that you could bootstrap it in MESS, and
they used 40 pin ROMs instead of ROM SIMMs.





From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 21 17:17:13 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 15:17:13 -0700
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <m1Shm9K-000J4eC@p850ug1>
References: <SNT129-W44CE8F0EB810593FFAB331A3FD0@phx.gbl> from "dwight elvey"
 at Jun 21, 12 10:17:50 am,<m1Shm9K-000J4eC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W3996A0E30908ED1FD2DC96A3FD0@phx.gbl>



 > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk
> Subject: Re: Weird Prices on E-Bay
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 19:30:26 +0100
> 
> [...]
> 
> > ll no longer need to do this.It is interesting=2C how it works though. Inst=
> > ead of a DC servo motor=2Cit uses an AC synchro motor. It chops the error s=
> > ignal and uses thatto drive the motor. A clever way to avoid DC offset with=
> 
> That was not at all uncommon in  ploters (and chart recorders) using 
> valve amplifiers (a 'chart recorder' here is a device with one 
> votlage-cotnroled axis (moving the pen across the papar) and one time 
> axis (moving the paper at a constant speed using a synchronos motor and 
> gearbox).
> 
> WHt was often done in such unts was to take the DC error voltage optained 
> by the differnece between the input nad the slidewire position. THis was 
> then choppend by a vibrating reed device eneerginsed from the heater 
> winding (normlally). The resulting signal conld then be amplifieed in a 
> normal AC-coupled valve amplifier. The amplitude of the output was then 
> the magnitude of the eorror (and thus couple be used to cotnrol the speed 
> of the motor), wehter it was in phase or anitphase iwth the heater 
> winding gave the direction. The output of said amplifier drove one 
> winding of a 2 phase motor, the other widing being mains-supplied (maybe 
> from a transformer winging).
> 
-snip-- It is interesting that the amplifiers in the 135 does use a nuvister tubefor the first stage. After that, it does several stages of differential transistorsinto a transformer to drive the final transistors. Mercury cells were my primary source of mercury when I was a kidI used to scrounge the trash behind the local radio/electronics shop.The service hundreds of hearing aids. Contrary to what most think, it isn't real dangerous until combined intoorganic compounds. Of course, constant breathing vapors isn't to good( As mad as a Hatter ).Dwight  		 	   		  

From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Jun 21 18:47:45 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 16:47:45 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FE30A22.11535.8211CA@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <20120620173546.V93886@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 20,
 12 05:41:38 pm,
 <m1ShlM3-000J4WC@p850ug1> <4FE30A22.11535.8211CA@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FE3B2A1.8060900@brouhaha.com>

Chuck Guzis wrote:
> And don't get me started on the quality of Tandon engineering (the 
> Model 16 uses two TM848 drives).

Speaking of which, how do you remove them from a Model 16?  The screws 
on the top side are easy enough to get to, but what about the bottom?




From jecel at merlintec.com  Thu Jun 21 18:46:21 2012
From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 20:46:21 -0300 
Subject: Mac PALs
In-Reply-To: <344EE6B0-5024-4AB3-B4D7-5D3B65535682@gmail.com>
References: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>
 <201206210554.q5L5sHSK036120@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4FE373E6.4090208@brouhaha.com>
 <344EE6B0-5024-4AB3-B4D7-5D3B65535682@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201206212346.q5LNkZtQ059730@billy.ezwind.net>

David Riley wrote on Thu, 21 Jun 2012 15:52:27 -0400
> On Jun 21, 2012, at 3:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> 
> > Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote:
> >> I did a clean room implementation of the PALs in 1987 that was better
> >> (27% performance increase over the original) but don't have a copy of
> >> the sources (I do have access to a machine with the actual PALs with
> >> my design, however).
> > 
> > I'd be interested in trying them if you can read them and post the JEDEC
> > files as some point.  I suspect probably a few other people would be
> > interested as well.
> 
> I know I would, mostly from a historical perspective.  JEDEC fuse
> maps are pretty easy to turn back into equations.

Here is a picture of the motherboard:

http://www.merlintec.com/download/mac_unitron_motherboard.jpg

The video had died and I guessed that it was the CRT so I swapped it
with the one on a Mac Plus. They weren't 100% mechanically compatible,
but fortunately the Unitron chassis had been designed for the original
CRT and had an adaptor to use the slightly different tube (the phosphor
is a little different too). That didn't do anything, so I swapped the
analog boards too and then it worked.

Anyway, I can't quite read what is on the PALs but it seems they are
from MMI and "Made in Singapore". This makes it more likely that the
Unitron would have burned the security fuses so the chips can't be read
in a PAL programmer. On the machine I worked with them had Lattice GALs
instead and while those can also be protected they were less likely to
do so.

Of course, the only way to know is to try. I don't have a PAL programmer
handy and wouldn't like to open up the machine again without a good
reason, but it would certainly be worth doing it if I could fix the
original analog board and restore the original components to the
machine. So this isn't something I will do right now, but it might
happen by the end of this year.

I did find the very first draft of my design (it had been forgotten in a
drawer for over a decade, which is why I didn't turn it over to Unitron
like I did all other material. The big change was that Apple's design
uses 4 clock cycles for each memory access and mine uses 2. This ended
up making all the state machines smaller and more uniform.

Ah, someone gathered a bit of this information on this page:

> http://retro.co.za/ccc/mac/homepage.ntlworld.com/kryten_droid/AppleMac/apple_mac_logic.htm

-- Jecel



From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 21 18:48:45 2012
From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 19:48:45 -0400
Subject: Desiogns/Plans/Board Layouts for 6809 System
In-Reply-To: <FF300847BD2042A699EBF98354233E8F@G4UGMT41>
References: <1340199727.76486.YahooMailClassic@web180204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <FF300847BD2042A699EBF98354233E8F@G4UGMT41>
Message-ID: <00b201cd5008$7f090370$7d1b0a50$@YAHOO.COM>

> > From the N8VEM home brew computing project wiki front page:
> >
> >
> >
> > The three 6809 standalone computer boards available in the Eurocard
> > (160 x 100 mm) format; the 6809/6802/6502 host processor, its
> > 6809/6802/6502 IO?mezzanine, and the
> > 6809/6802/6502 bus bridge.? A redesign of the 6809 host processor
> > board has been completed and the new version supports 6502 and 6802
> > CPUs in addition to the 6809.
> >
> > All Eurocard ECB?format PCBs are $20 plus shipping which is
> > $2 per board in the US and typically $5 per board overseas.
> >
> > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/4200908/FrontPage
> >
> > There are PCBs for the 6x0x host processor and associated boards still
> > available.? There was quite a bit of active development on this system
> > a few months ago.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Andrew Lynch
> >
> 
> But elsewhere it says:-
> 
> "The Z80 in the SBC serves IO for the 6809 host processor as it does not
> control the ECB directly.  However the 6809 host processor can get the
> attention of the Z80 CPU through the ECB interrupt system."
> 
> which to me implies you need the z80 card..
> .. or have I missed something
> 
> Dave Wade G4UGM
> Illegitimi Non Carborundum
> 

Hi Dave
The N8VEM 6x0x host processor SBC can operate as either part of an ECB
system where it is a peripheral co-processor or as a stand-alone system in
control of its own ECB bus.  

The first mode assumes you have a Z80 or 80C188 based SBC controlling the
ECB and the 6x0x appears as a peripheral co-processor with its own memory
and IO.  The ECB bus controlling CPU (Z80) can communicate with the 6x0x via
an IO chip and the Z80 serves IO like floppy disk, hard disk, video, etc.
>From the 6x0x CPU perspective, the Z80 (ECB bus controller) acts as an IO
coprocessor serving data as requested.

The second mode is the 6x0x stand-alone mode where it has an expanded IO
mezzanine board with a timer, ACIA, and dual PIO chip and a bus expansion
connector.  In addition, the 6x0x "stack" of boards can be further expanded
to have its own ECB bus and directly control its own ECB peripherals like
video, floppy disk, hard disk, etc.

Either mode works just fine and it depends on the builder which way to go.
In fact, you can build a system that uses both modes at the same time.
However, it gets a bit too complicated in my opinion so I recommend choosing
either one or the other.

In short, the 6x0x host processor SBC works fine.  It has CUBIX ported and
that works as well as FLEX for the 6809.  Both operating systems work just
fine and are a lot of fun to experiment.  There are plenty of PCBs left of
all three of the 6x0x specific SBC boards

The 6x0x host processor (supports 6809, 6802, and 6502 CPUs, ACIA, SRAM,
ROM, ECB connection)

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=ECB%206x0x%20Ho
st%20Processor

The 6x0x IO mezzanine (timer, ACIA, dual PIO, ECB bus expansion)

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=ECB%206x0x%20IO
%20Mezzanine

The 6x0x ECB backplane (connects to 6x0x IO mezzanine)

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=ECB%206x0x%20EC
B%20Backplane

The project has been evolving over a couple of years and is fairly robust.
There are several builders active with this system on the N8VEM mailing
list.

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch




From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 19:15:14 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 21:15:14 -0300
Subject: Mac PALs
References: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>
 <201206210554.q5L5sHSK036120@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4FE373E6.4090208@brouhaha.com>
 <344EE6B0-5024-4AB3-B4D7-5D3B65535682@gmail.com>
 <201206212346.q5LNkZtQ059730@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <0e8801cd500c$230915c0$6400a8c0@tababook>

> Of course, the only way to know is to try. I don't have a PAL programmer
> handy and wouldn't like to open up the machine again without a good
> reason, but it would certainly be worth doing it if I could fix the
> original analog board and restore the original components to the
> machine. So this isn't something I will do right now, but it might
> happen by the end of this year.

    I did it on mine, all pals are protected :o(


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 21 19:15:39 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 17:15:39 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FE3B2A1.8060900@brouhaha.com>
References: <20120620173546.V93886@shell.lmi.net>,
 <4FE30A22.11535.8211CA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FE3B2A1.8060900@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4FE356BB.7807.1AD45DC@cclist.sydex.com>

On 21 Jun 2012 at 16:47, Eric Smith wrote:

> Chuck Guzis wrote:
> > And don't get me started on the quality of Tandon engineering (the
> > Model 16 uses two TM848 drives).
> 
> Speaking of which, how do you remove them from a Model 16?  The screws
> on the top side are easy enough to get to, but what about the bottom?

I've had them out on a couple of occasions--once to replace a failed 
+12V regulator, the other to replace the electrolytic and fuse on the 
same line, but on the other drive--and I don't recall it being a big 
deal.  About all I remember is that both drives come out as a unit.

If you're really flummoxed, I can go take a look.

--Chuck





From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 21 22:31:41 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 20:31:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: looking for Apollo systems and parts,
 and to interface w/other Apollo groupies
In-Reply-To: <CAEkdPRacopRDzfP1mV8qvQrb_EUW8UrtNssK8Vs5D5SLUrXpNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1340052090.51892.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAEkdPRaSgNo5WrSYiCMP+5KmAczHvofF01-Gq2+HF=Z=GmLiRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1340137836.3610.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAEkdPRacopRDzfP1mV8qvQrb_EUW8UrtNssK8Vs5D5SLUrXpNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1340335901.1704.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>





________________________________
 From: Ola Hughson <f.helyanvy at gmail.com>

> C: yeah but I"m not laughing Ola, I'm crying :(. I want one too, and all I
> got is a motherboard! Maybe I'll just stick it in a Mac case and be happy.
>

Want a hug?

C: Sadly that won't help the situation one bit.


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 21 22:34:21 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 20:34:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: utterly free Machine Language for the Commie 64, 128,...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206191207490.891@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <1339875805.16223.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <FA75CC94-4940-4BA9-996C-2BBEE6DE559C@gmail.com>
 <1339979286.7574.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206180538510.4981@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <1340047501.96572.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206181243440.20383@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <201206182153.RAA26290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20120618160543.E4131@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206190449470.18556@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <20120619093922.D29961@shell.lmi.net>
 <1340137708.53638.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206191207490.891@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <1340336061.17494.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>





________________________________
 From: Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com>

It figures that you'd be a jihadi meerkat sympathizer.

?C: not sympathetic to anyone who straps bombs to their sorry arses. But meerkats I am definitely sympathetic to. They're God's creatures as much as you and I are. And I have heard on very good authority that all meerkats top post w/regularity. Nyeh.


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 21 22:37:55 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 20:37:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: relevant but OT: automatic document scanning
In-Reply-To: <4FE22931.8090203@verizon.net>
References: <1339809438.92087.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <1339813610.46596.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <201206201757.q5KHuwsp020068@billy.ezwind.net> <4FE22931.8090203@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1340336275.91076.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>





________________________________
 From: Keith Monahan <keithvz at verizon.net>

On 6/20/2012 1:45 PM, John Foust wrote:

<snipped for bandwidth considerations>

?Thanks to both for your inputs. I'd love a Snap Scanner. Can't justify the cost at the moment sadly.


From djg at pdp8online.com  Thu Jun 21 06:33:57 2012
From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 07:33:57 -0400
Subject: PDP 11 rk05 controllor? pertec controllor?
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23Uyd7Zp8PG-7yLazMhcwhdieN+FBpOUnwoia=s3GmApg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs23Uyd7Zp8PG-7yLazMhcwhdieN+FBpOUnwoia=s3GmApg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120621113357.GA15533@hugin2.pdp8online.com>

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 01:57:04PM -0500, Adrian Stoness wrote:
> m7104
> m7105
> m7106
> 
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > i was hopeing u guys new what cable i needed
> >
> >
I assume you are talking about the M993C between the controller and the
first drive.

http://www.pdp8online.com/rk05/pics/m993c.shtml?small

I've seen them with and without the IC installed. I don't know if/when its
needed. The one I'm running with doesn't have it.


From wrm at retro.co.za  Thu Jun 21 12:40:21 2012
From: wrm at retro.co.za (Wouter)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 19:40:21 +0200
Subject: Mac PALs (was: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1340298000.25925.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20120621193800.034c1620@196.22.225.198>

Hi Jecel and all


>Back in 2005 someone posted the sources for all the PALs, I looked at
>them, but didn't save a local copy. A quick search only showed the
>source for the TSM  (timing state machine) circuit in
>
> > http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=26198

Kryten saved some of what you posted, but his website also is no more. I 
sifted through archives, everything I could find as well as my own musings 
are up on

http://www.retro.co.za/ccc/mac/ReverseEngineering/PALs.html


>I did a clean room implementation of the PALs in 1987 that was better
>(27% performance increase over the original) but don't have a copy of
>the sources (I do have access to a machine with the actual PALs with my
>design, however).

Let's hope you didn't blow the fuses -- if you can, read them and post the 
results?

Thanks

W



From tingox at gmail.com  Thu Jun 21 15:20:01 2012
From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 22:20:01 +0200
Subject: Three Tons of Minicomputers
In-Reply-To: <20120621091245.GC10246@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20120621091245.GC10246@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CAJ_iqtaoesdTJNd3VU8s7k0jCnPm=D9vPimFE0-ix0=sstqpeA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> Hi
>
> This is a shameless plug for something I and the Update Computer Club
> have been working on this spring and opened yesterday.
>
> The exhibition "Three Tons of Minicomputers" at Museum Gustavianum in
> Uppsala, Sweden.

Fantastic! Great work! Thanks for sharing.
The museum is here http://www.gustavianum.uu.se/en/
and via Google Maps:
https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Akademigatan+3,+Uppsala,+Sverige&aq=1&oq=Akademigatan+3&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=55.279921,134.560547&vpsrc=0&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Akademigatan+3,+753+10+Uppsala,+Sweden&t=m&z=16&iwloc=A

Hmm, almost 500 kilometers from Oslo... perhaps a ride on my
motorcycle this summer.
How many months is this exhibition open?
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen


From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 21 15:47:00 2012
From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:47:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Three Tons of Minicomputers
In-Reply-To: <20120621091245.GC10246@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20120621091245.GC10246@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <1340311620.91729.YahooMailNeo@web160104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

We are planning a family vacation to Denmark/Sweden in late summer, but will ?miss this by a couple weeks. :-(

Please post more pictures - looks very nice. Congratulations!
?
Lee Courtney
Menlo Park, CA



________________________________
 From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org 
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 2:12 AM
Subject: Three Tons of Minicomputers
 
Hi

This is a shameless plug for something I and the Update Computer Club 
have been working on this spring and opened yesterday.

The exhibition "Three Tons of Minicomputers" at Museum Gustavianum in 
Uppsala, Sweden.

We have collected computers primarily used by the university at some 
point in time. Highlights include a Linc-8 and a DECSYSTEM-2060 with 
peripherals.

Here are some pictures from the opening:

http://www.update.uu.se/~jeppe/tmp/vernissage/

I strongly recommend anyone nearby Uppsala this summer to take a swing 
by Gustavianum. If you want a guided tour, let me know and we'll figure 
something out.

It's only open for a few months, so don't wait to long.

Regards,
Pontus.

From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 21 15:47:00 2012
From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 13:47:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Three Tons of Minicomputers
In-Reply-To: <20120621091245.GC10246@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20120621091245.GC10246@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <1340311620.91729.YahooMailNeo@web160104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

We are planning a family vacation to Denmark/Sweden in late summer, but will ?miss this by a couple weeks. :-(

Please post more pictures - looks very nice. Congratulations!
?
Lee Courtney
Menlo Park, CA



________________________________
 From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org 
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 2:12 AM
Subject: Three Tons of Minicomputers
 
Hi

This is a shameless plug for something I and the Update Computer Club 
have been working on this spring and opened yesterday.

The exhibition "Three Tons of Minicomputers" at Museum Gustavianum in 
Uppsala, Sweden.

We have collected computers primarily used by the university at some 
point in time. Highlights include a Linc-8 and a DECSYSTEM-2060 with 
peripherals.

Here are some pictures from the opening:

http://www.update.uu.se/~jeppe/tmp/vernissage/

I strongly recommend anyone nearby Uppsala this summer to take a swing 
by Gustavianum. If you want a guided tour, let me know and we'll figure 
something out.

It's only open for a few months, so don't wait to long.

Regards,
Pontus.

From pontus at update.uu.se  Fri Jun 22 02:42:43 2012
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 09:42:43 +0200
Subject: Three Tons of Minicomputers
In-Reply-To: <CAJ_iqtaoesdTJNd3VU8s7k0jCnPm=D9vPimFE0-ix0=sstqpeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120621091245.GC10246@Update.UU.SE>
 <CAJ_iqtaoesdTJNd3VU8s7k0jCnPm=D9vPimFE0-ix0=sstqpeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE421F3.60902@update.uu.se>

On 06/21/2012 10:20 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
>
> Fantastic! Great work! Thanks for sharing.
> The museum is here http://www.gustavianum.uu.se/en/
> and via Google Maps:
> https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Akademigatan+3,+Uppsala,+Sverige&aq=1&oq=Akademigatan+3&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=55.279921,134.560547&vpsrc=0&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Akademigatan+3,+753+10+Uppsala,+Sweden&t=m&z=16&iwloc=A
>
> Hmm, almost 500 kilometers from Oslo... perhaps a ride on my
> motorcycle this summer.
> How many months is this exhibition open?

Until September I believe.

Regards,
Pontus.


From p.gebhardt at ymail.com  Fri Jun 22 02:58:16 2012
From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 08:58:16 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Bits and pieces rescued from the remainings of the Computer
 Museum Aachen
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfKuf-_um-PVUUGLvd1dx_Wd2sWTN8Yr5Bsm0quafrK_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1340229571.42796.YahooMailNeo@web29111.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CANij+dfKuf-_um-PVUUGLvd1dx_Wd2sWTN8Yr5Bsm0quafrK_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1340351896.5479.YahooMailNeo@web29112.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hello Will,

thanks for your reply! That's just wunderful, that you have CDC logic-boards and alignment packs from that era.
So be warned: I will contact you, when starting with the restoration of these drives :)


Kind regards,
Pierre
?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/


________________________________
 Von: William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Gesendet: 0:24 Donnerstag, 21.Juni 2012
Betreff: Re: Bits and pieces rescued from the remainings of the Computer Museum Aachen
 
Docs for these machines may have been saved from CyberResources (Al?).
Likewise, I pulled a lot of CDC 1960s era logic boards out of there,
so I may have many or all of the cards for the 604. And when I say
lots, I mean a thousand or more of the 1600, 1700 and 3000 series
modules. I also have quite a lot of CDC alignment packs, some for
machines I am not familiar with, so I may have them for the 841.

> Unfortunately, I couldn't find documents online about all of these parts. So I'd kindly like to ask the list, if anybody has documents about the following ones, so that I could ask them in future, when I come to the point where I can start restoration of these:
>
> - CDC 604 and BW303 tape drives, 854 disk drive and 841 multiple disk drive

--
Will

From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Jun 22 04:28:53 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 02:28:53 -0700
Subject: Mac PALs
In-Reply-To: <0e8801cd500c$230915c0$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>
 <201206210554.q5L5sHSK036120@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4FE373E6.4090208@brouhaha.com>
 <344EE6B0-5024-4AB3-B4D7-5D3B65535682@gmail.com>
 <201206212346.q5LNkZtQ059730@billy.ezwind.net>
 <0e8801cd500c$230915c0$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <4FE43AD5.3020808@brouhaha.com>

Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>    I did it on mine, all pals are protected :o(

If it's a normal production Mac, they're most likely HAL parts rather 
than PAL, which means that they're mask-programmed and probably don't 
support the readback mode at all.  I'd be a little worried that trying 
to read a HAL in a PAL programmer might damage the HAL.

If I had a spare original Mac logic board handy, or Mac Plus, I'd be 
tempted to decap the HALs.  It should be easy to extract the content 
optically.  Probably true for original PALs also, but not for the later 
electrically erasable ones.



From Arno_1983 at gmx.de  Fri Jun 22 11:10:35 2012
From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:10:35 +0200
Subject: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II)
Message-ID: <20120622161035.266350@gmx.net>

Hello Folks,

the recent talk about film recorders here made me think it might be time to mention one of my "wish list" items here again, just in case somebody happened across it recently. I know this is going to be a long shot but here is: 

I managed to secure an Agfa PCR II from University, but unfortunately it is missing the actual camera/optics/tubus assembly. The physical interface for it is a spare metal plate with two alignment holes and two thumbscrews on diagonally opposite corners, and a strange round 12-pin threaded connector for power and communication to the camera (shutter release, out-of-film signalling).

There are several options available (the most common being 35mm and Type 120), but either people don't know what they are (which makes them difficult to find) or they know it (which renders them unaffordable, cf. http://www.mops-computer.de/plson01_.htm ) 

The standard one seems to be the 35mm cartridge film module, a modified Nikon N6000 a.k.a. F-601M camera. If these do appear in the market, they are sometimes converted back to standard, which involves removing a small controller PCB and rejoining some wire ends, cf. http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?topic_id=23&msg_id=001BtO .

Please let me know if you have any leads on such an item. TIA,

Arno Kletzander.
-- 
Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de


From spectre at floodgap.com  Fri Jun 22 11:42:15 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 09:42:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Homer lives
Message-ID: <201206221642.q5MGgFYX14155906@floodgap.com>

This 9000/350 was Stan Sieler's, IIRC, and passed through an intermediary who
couldn't maintain space for it, so I ended up with it and I put it in storage
until I could get space myself. Now that I have space, Homer is resurrected.
It is a 9000/350 (25MHz '020 + '881), 16MB RAM, 670MB main drive, HP-UX 8.0.
And I still have 10b2 on my 10MBit backbone, so it plugged right in.

http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1572
Testing the CPU (Homer doll came with it)

http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1573
Self-test

http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1575
Bringing up HP-UX

http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1574
Old school X11 as God intended

http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1576
Obligatory rear shot

I figure Stan will enjoy seeing it's still out there and operational.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- The best defense against logic is ignorance. -------------------------------


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Fri Jun 22 11:47:37 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 13:47:37 -0300
Subject: Homer lives
References: <201206221642.q5MGgFYX14155906@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <123301cd5096$c66114e0$6400a8c0@tababook>


    Wow, beautiful one! ;oD

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cameron Kaiser" <spectre at floodgap.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 1:42 PM
Subject: Homer lives


> This 9000/350 was Stan Sieler's, IIRC, and passed through an intermediary 
> who
> couldn't maintain space for it, so I ended up with it and I put it in 
> storage
> until I could get space myself. Now that I have space, Homer is 
> resurrected.
> It is a 9000/350 (25MHz '020 + '881), 16MB RAM, 670MB main drive, HP-UX 
> 8.0.
> And I still have 10b2 on my 10MBit backbone, so it plugged right in.
>
> http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1572
> Testing the CPU (Homer doll came with it)
>
> http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1573
> Self-test
>
> http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1575
> Bringing up HP-UX
>
> http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1574
> Old school X11 as God intended
>
> http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1576
> Obligatory rear shot
>
> I figure Stan will enjoy seeing it's still out there and operational.
>
> -- 
> ------------------------------------ personal: 
> http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
>  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * 
> ckaiser at floodgap.com
> -- The best defense against logic is 
> ignorance. ------------------------------- 



From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Fri Jun 22 13:14:06 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 20:14:06 +0200
Subject: Homer lives
In-Reply-To: <201206221642.q5MGgFYX14155906@floodgap.com>
References: <201206221642.q5MGgFYX14155906@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <CACStewZhqoU9FDb=gqV5FOzUMho84yRuDFb_GqOcPsTw-CCpFA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 6:42 PM, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
> This 9000/350 was Stan Sieler's, IIRC, and passed through an intermediary who
> couldn't maintain space for it, so I ended up with it and I put it in storage
> until I could get space myself. Now that I have space, Homer is resurrected.
> It is a 9000/350 (25MHz '020 + '881), 16MB RAM, 670MB main drive, HP-UX 8.0.
> And I still have 10b2 on my 10MBit backbone, so it plugged right in.
>
It's beautiful, but seeing as it is an 68020, any chance there's
something like 'tme' for it to run HP/UX v.Old on an emulator?

re,

Sander
-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From swtpc6800 at comcast.net  Fri Jun 22 13:41:59 2012
From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 11:41:59 -0700
Subject: HP technical manuals for PCL5
Message-ID: <000c01cd50a6$b582bdd0$20883970$@comcast.net>

In 1993 or so I wrote some software to print images from my video frame
grabber to a HP LaserJet printer. I ordered the HP technical manuals for
PCL5; they were free with my LaserJet 4. The manuals weight 7 pounds and are
available for the cost of shipping. If no one wants them they are off to the
recycle bin.

HP LaserJet 4 and 4M Printers User's Manual
PostScript SIMM Technical Reference
PCL 5 Comparison Guide
Printer Job Language Technical Reference Manual
PCL 5 Printer Language Technical Reference Manual (3.5 pounds)
PCL 5 Printer Language Technical Quick Reference Guide

Michael Holley



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Fri Jun 22 13:53:31 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 15:53:31 -0300
Subject: HP technical manuals for PCL5
References: <000c01cd50a6$b582bdd0$20883970$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <13d201cd50a8$5a8c62d0$6400a8c0@tababook>


    I'd cry for that manuals :o( But I'm in the wrong side of the world :o(

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Holley" <swtpc6800 at comcast.net>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 3:41 PM
Subject: HP technical manuals for PCL5


> In 1993 or so I wrote some software to print images from my video frame
> grabber to a HP LaserJet printer. I ordered the HP technical manuals for
> PCL5; they were free with my LaserJet 4. The manuals weight 7 pounds and 
> are
> available for the cost of shipping. If no one wants them they are off to 
> the
> recycle bin.
>
> HP LaserJet 4 and 4M Printers User's Manual
> PostScript SIMM Technical Reference
> PCL 5 Comparison Guide
> Printer Job Language Technical Reference Manual
> PCL 5 Printer Language Technical Reference Manual (3.5 pounds)
> PCL 5 Printer Language Technical Quick Reference Guide
>
> Michael Holley
> 



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 22 13:35:13 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:35:13 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <0bbe01cd4fde$8e1f6a90$6400a8c0@tababook> from "Alexandre Souza -
 Listas" at Jun 21, 12 03:49:03 pm
Message-ID: <m1Si8hS-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> 
> > IT takes special sproketed thermal paper (which is unobtainium nwo, I
> > have a few boxes I use for demonstrations). There's one stepper motor
> > driving a sproketec roller to feed the paper. And anotehr to move the
> > printhead across the paper.
> 
>     I believe you can easily make a machine to turn fax paper into 
> sprocketed paper :)

For suitable values of 'easily' :-)

Actually, it;'s not as simple as that. One sprocket hole every so often 
on the left edge of the paper is elognated across the paper a bit 
(prehaps to twice the hromal width). This is detected by the plotter and 
used as the top-of-form marker.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 22 13:44:16 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:44:16 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <20120621141758.X38618@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 21,
 12 02:36:25 pm
Message-ID: <m1Si8qD-000J4YC@p850ug1>

[TRS-80 Model 16 TechRef]
 
> There definitely WAS one.  (The Oakland RS "Computer Center" gave me one
> after I bailed them out on interfacing a Votrax).
> I have not seen it since I moved my office.  Perhaps I gave it to Eric?
> Or put it somewhere where I can't lose it?

At lest you rememrbr you once had it. I've been tidying up a corner of my 
workshop and have found quite a few books I'd forgeotten I ever had. Like 
100-year-old books on telephones. Like the technical and service manuals 
for the Sharp PC1350 pocket computer. Like an original (not the fairly 
recent reprint) Radiotron Designers Handbook. And so on...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 22 13:49:58 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:49:58 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W3996A0E30908ED1FD2DC96A3FD0@phx.gbl> from "dwight elvey"
 at Jun 21, 12 03:17:13 pm
Message-ID: <m1Si8vi-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

> -It is interesting that the amplifiers in the 135 does use a nuviste=
> r tubefor the first stage. After that=2C it does several stages of differen=
> tial transistorsinto a transformer to drive the final transistors. Mercury =

I don't know how early this thing is, but it may have predated the 
easy/cost-effective aviaalbility of FETs. The point being that a nuvistor 
has a higher input impedance than a bipolar transistor. 

> cells were my primary source of mercury when I was a kidI used to scrounge =

Did they contain elemental mercury? Or did you find soem way to extract 
it from the compounds?

If you really want to give the 'greens' a fit, show them a Weston cell. 
IIRC it's a mercury/cadmium couple. I guess they're banned now too, 
ala, even thought he environmetal impact is close to xero (they last for 
a very long time if not misused, and they're sealed glass tubes).

> the trash behind the local radio/electronics shop.The service hundreds of h=
> earing aids. Contrary to what most think=2C it isn't real dangerous until c=
> ombined intoorganic compounds. Of course=2C constant breathing vapors isn't=

Indeed not. But I beelvie there are such compounds in a mercury cell. 

>  to good( As mad as a Hatter ).Dwight  		 	   		  =

WHich I beelive is the origian of that phrase, hatters used merucry or 
mercury compounds for oen of the operations on the felt to make said hats.

I prefer 'As mad a as Hacker' :-) (which may well eb caused by breathing 
flux fumes...)

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 22 13:54:13 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:54:13 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Mac PALs
In-Reply-To: <4FE43AD5.3020808@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 22,
 12 02:28:53 am
Message-ID: <m1Si8zq-000J4cC@p850ug1>

> 
> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
> >    I did it on mine, all pals are protected :o(
> 
> If it's a normal production Mac, they're most likely HAL parts rather 

I am pretty sure som, if not all, of the logic array chips in my Mac+ are 
HALs.

> than PAL, which means that they're mask-programmed and probably don't 
> support the readback mode at all.  I'd be a little worried that trying 
> to read a HAL in a PAL programmer might damage the HAL.

My (limited) experience is that attempting to read an MMI HAL as an MMI 
PAL does no damage, but you don't get anything useful (it's either all 0s 
or all 1s, I forget). It's like reading a copy-protected PAL. Whether it 
was possible to order a HAL that could be read out I don't know.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 22 13:58:43 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:58:43 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II)
In-Reply-To: <20120622161035.266350@gmx.net> from "Arno Kletzander" at Jun 22,
 12 06:10:35 pm
Message-ID: <m1Si94C-000J4dC@p850ug1>

> The standard one seems to be the 35mm cartridge film module, a 
> modified Nikon N6000 a.k.a. F-601M camera. If these do appear in the 
> market, they are sometimes converted back to standard, which involves 
> removing a small controller PCB and rejoining some wire ends, cf. 
> http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?topic_id=23&msg_id=001BtO . 

How comples is this controller board that's removed? Is it possible to 
recreate it, and thus covnert a normal Nikon camera to work with the film 
reocerder? 

Alas (for you), the only Nikon I own has no electtornics in it at all. The 
only electrical part is the flash contact.

-tony


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun 22 14:25:06 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 12:25:06 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <m1Si8qD-000J4YC@p850ug1>
References: <20120621141758.X38618@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 21,
 12 02:36:25 pm, <m1Si8qD-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FE46422.4388.DD8980@cclist.sydex.com>

On 22 Jun 2012 at 19:44, Tony Duell wrote:

> At lest you rememrbr you once had it. I've been tidying up a corner of
> my workshop and have found quite a few books I'd forgeotten I ever
> had. Like 100-year-old books on telephones. Like the technical and
> service manuals for the Sharp PC1350 pocket computer. Like an original
> (not the fairly recent reprint) Radiotron Designers Handbook. And so
> on...

For what it's worth, archive.org now has the Model 16 service manual 
online:

http://archive.org/download/trs80_model_16_service_manual/trs80_model_
16_service_manual.pdf

Includes schematics for the 68K CPU boards.

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Jun 22 14:33:19 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 12:33:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <m1Si8qD-000J4YC@p850ug1>
References: <m1Si8qD-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20120622122526.C64234@shell.lmi.net>

> > There definitely WAS one.  (The Oakland RS "Computer Center" gave me one
> > after I bailed them out on interfacing a Votrax).
> > I have not seen it since I moved my office.  Perhaps I gave it to Eric?
> > Or put it somewhere where I can't lose it?
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
> [TRS-80 Model 16 TechRef]

Almost!  Model TWO Techref.
although things like the RS proprietary pinouts probably match.

> At lest you rememrbr you once had it. I've been tidying up a corner of my
> workshop and have found quite a few books I'd forgeotten I ever had. Like
> 100-year-old books on telephones. Like the technical and service manuals
> for the Sharp PC1350 pocket computer. Like an original (not the fairly
> recent reprint) Radiotron Designers Handbook. And so on...

Yes.  But, with more than three short-notice moves (what did Ben Franklin
say?), I have suddenly lost my ability to remember where anything is, and
I had always relied on that in lieu of any serious system of organization.


I have a jammed full office at the college that I will need to vacate
within the next year.  Most of it is boxed from the previous moves, but I
really should start parting with almost all of it.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com




From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Fri Jun 22 14:33:13 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 16:33:13 -0300
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
References: <20120621141758.X38618@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 21,
 12 02:36:25 pm,
 <m1Si8qD-000J4YC@p850ug1> <4FE46422.4388.DD8980@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <147001cd50ad$f2b0a6c0$6400a8c0@tababook>


    Page not avaiable here :(

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft


> On 22 Jun 2012 at 19:44, Tony Duell wrote:
>
>> At lest you rememrbr you once had it. I've been tidying up a corner of
>> my workshop and have found quite a few books I'd forgeotten I ever
>> had. Like 100-year-old books on telephones. Like the technical and
>> service manuals for the Sharp PC1350 pocket computer. Like an original
>> (not the fairly recent reprint) Radiotron Designers Handbook. And so
>> on...
>
> For what it's worth, archive.org now has the Model 16 service manual
> online:
>
> http://archive.org/download/trs80_model_16_service_manual/trs80_model_
> 16_service_manual.pdf
>
> Includes schematics for the 68K CPU boards.
>
> --Chuck
> 



From swtpc6800 at comcast.net  Fri Jun 22 14:57:44 2012
From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 12:57:44 -0700
Subject: HP technical manuals for PCL5
In-Reply-To: <000c01cd50a6$b582bdd0$20883970$@comcast.net>
References: <000c01cd50a6$b582bdd0$20883970$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <001201cd50b1$4a8e0fb0$dfaa2f10$@comcast.net>

The manuals have been taken.

Michael Holley

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Michael Holley
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 11:42 AM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: HP technical manuals for PCL5

In 1993 or so I wrote some software to print images from my video frame
grabber to a HP LaserJet printer. I ordered the HP technical manuals for
PCL5; they were free with my LaserJet 4. The manuals weight 7 pounds and are
available for the cost of shipping. If no one wants them they are off to the
recycle bin.

HP LaserJet 4 and 4M Printers User's Manual PostScript SIMM Technical
Reference PCL 5 Comparison Guide Printer Job Language Technical Reference
Manual PCL 5 Printer Language Technical Reference Manual (3.5 pounds) PCL 5
Printer Language Technical Quick Reference Guide

Michael Holley




From swtpc6800 at comcast.net  Fri Jun 22 15:20:00 2012
From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 13:20:00 -0700
Subject: PC-Write and PC-File Shareware
Message-ID: <001301cd50b4$66dfc9d0$349f5d70$@comcast.net>

I am doing my once a decade or so clean up and sorting. I have found working
distribution diskettes of the shareware software PC-Write and PC-File.  I
had to break-out a 5.25 inch drive to read these. My 2005 vintage XP machine
only support on drive at a time so I have to open the case and hook up the
5.25 inch drive.

 

I have transferred these disks to my network drive and have tested them on a
Windows 98 laptop. I also have Norton Utilities and various copies of DOS
going back to version 1.1. (Complete with packaging.) If there are any
vintage PC users here I can email copies of the disk contents. Is there a
program that makes an "ISO" type file of a bootable floppy?

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PC_Write_text_editor.png

 

Michael Holley



From ss at allegro.com  Fri Jun 22 16:12:27 2012
From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:12:27 -0700
Subject: TinyBASIC in HP2645A (was: Converting terminals into computers
 (was: Re: 1970s microprocessor magazine articles))
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSU.4.63.1206210916460.424@azu.informatik.uni-stuttgart.d>
References: <000f01cd42d5$9916adc0$cb440940$@comcast.net>
 <E1Sbmzc-0006P2-7p@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDA873.1030407@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1SboCN-0006U5-IM@shell.xmission.com> <4FCDB8E4.9050606@mail.msu.edu>
 <29891C54-D49F-40A5-9C5A-1764B40AD620@allegro.com>
 <E1Sc0Vo-0005fb-BR@shell.xmission.com>
 <4D1C81D5-BB82-4AD2-808D-57D06FD28CE0@allegro.com>
 <Pine.GSU.4.63.1206210916460.424@azu.informatik.uni-stuttgart.d>
Message-ID: <90DDBABD-1722-456C-8775-3B53EEE9E4E2@allegro.com>

Hi Klemens,

Re:
> We have working copies of these games: Keep on Drivin', Pong, Hacman
> and Space Invaders run on our hp 2648 with a 8080 processor, and we
> also have a version of Pong for hp 2644 with 8008 processor. Naturally
> we saved them on our ftp-server. I never tried to load them via the
> serial line, but would be interested to do that, because the cassettes
> 

IIRC, we simply did the equivalent of "cat space.oct" or "cat pong.oct".
(It was from MPE, so it was probably: FCOPY FROM=space.oct;to=   
)

I noticed in your README you mentioned overflowing the terminal at serial
speeds ... that's solved by using enq/ack pacing, a strap you can enable
on HP terminals (also called "flow control").  
It's been awhile since I've used it, but I found a writeup here:

http://docs2.attachmate.com/verastream/vhi/7.1/en/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.attachmate.vhi.help%2Fhtml%2Fsettings%2Fhpenqack.xhtml

And, from Robelle's website at
http://www.robelle.com/smugbook/network.html we see:

   ENQ/ACK is a proprietary method of flow control used on 
   Classic MPE V systems and is still built-in to most HP terminals 
   and enabled by default. The transmitter sends an ENQ (Enquiry, decimal 5, 
   Control-E) every 80 characters (or so). When the receiver is ready 
   for more data, it replies with an ACK (Acknowledge, decimal 6, Control-F). 
   If there is no reply in 10 seconds, MPE V resumes printing printing (Term Type 10). 
   If you disable ENQ/ACK on your terminal, you will see output interspersed with pauses. 
   MPE/iX and HP-UX normally use XON/XOFF Flow Control instead of ENQ/ACK.
   
So...you could have a little C program that loops:

   while data left > 0
      if >= 80 bytes then
         write 80 bytes of data        
         write an ENQ (decimal 5)
         read, waiting for an ACK (decimal 6)  
             (preferably with a timeout of a second or two, in case ENQ/ACK 
              isn't enabled on the terminal)
      else
         write remaining data

Stan


From ss at allegro.com  Fri Jun 22 16:17:02 2012
From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:17:02 -0700
Subject: Found: paper tape for "L8/9" computer ... unknown computer
In-Reply-To: <4FE20DFD.30606@bitsavers.org>
References: <mailman.651.1340169680.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <9E40317B017F4700B32B82E9EAD4E78F@vl420mt>
 <C380184E-3735-4C36-B501-FAA253CA8989@allegro.com>
 <4FE20DFD.30606@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <FFE8A8D8-9D20-4C55-8A21-E23768A4A4D7@allegro.com>

Re:

On Jun 20, 2012, at 10:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

> On 6/20/12 10:44 AM, Stan Sieler wrote:
> 
>> thanks for the kind offer!  If Bob declines, I'll let you know.
>> 
> 
> CHM is interested, since apparently we have one.
> 

The tape's being sent to Bob, who will send the bits to Al.

I'd forgotten that I arranged the donation of that Burroughs L9000 to CHM :)
(It was offered to me because our office was next door to the owner's, and
he knew I was collecting antique computers ... I took a look at how large
it was and said, uh, I know this museum... :)

thanks,

Stan


From ss at allegro.com  Fri Jun 22 16:18:28 2012
From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:18:28 -0700
Subject: Found: paper tape for "L8/9" computer ... unknown
In-Reply-To: <E2A2E8F6F74049C082E4ADA557AA1457@vl420mt>
References: <mailman.655.1340229586.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <E2A2E8F6F74049C082E4ADA557AA1457@vl420mt>
Message-ID: <A86F7720-E89B-4856-8192-BE5A6885F47C@allegro.com>

Hi,

Bob indicated people should ask him about that.

I have no means of duplicating, or reading, papertape.

On Jun 20, 2012, at 5:16 PM, MikeS wrote:

> ----- Original Message:
> Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 10:53:01 -0700
> From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
> 
> On 6/20/12 10:44 AM, Stan Sieler wrote:
> 
>>> thanks for the kind offer!  If Bob declines, I'll let you know.
> 
>> CHM is interested, since apparently we have one.
> 
> ------ Reply:
> 
> Excellent; I assume that if they go to you there would be a way for someone
> who might need one to get a physical copy?
> 
> m
> 



From ss at allegro.com  Fri Jun 22 16:19:23 2012
From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:19:23 -0700
Subject: Found: paper tape for "L8/9" computer ... unknown
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W42D7A12B9139204CC4EF3FA3FD0@phx.gbl>
References: <4FE26A2B.2000906@bitsavers.org>,
 <1340249237.90645.YahooMailClassic@web184520.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <SNT129-W42D7A12B9139204CC4EF3FA3FD0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3C548CA5-BBB7-4E35-8E81-4785C9925FE3@allegro.com>

Dwight asks:

> Is it spools or fan fold, I wonder?

spools (or, at least, they're coils of papertape)

Stan



From cube1 at charter.net  Fri Jun 22 16:21:05 2012
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 16:21:05 -0500
Subject: PC-Write and PC-File Shareware
In-Reply-To: <001301cd50b4$66dfc9d0$349f5d70$@comcast.net>
References: <001301cd50b4$66dfc9d0$349f5d70$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4FE4E1C1.2050400@charter.net>

Not an ISO.  Usually other formats are used, such as .IMD (See 
Imagedisk, below).

There are a few programs out there for making images of disks.  Your 
2005 machine might even support them, depending upon what it has for a 
disk controller.


Examples:

Imagedisk:  http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm
Anadisk: http://www.8bit-micro.com/anadisk-man.htm
Teledisk:  (Hard to find these days, apparently some kind of i.p. rights 
issue)
cwtool and cw2dmk (requires catweasel hardware, which is not easy to 
find.  See cw2dmk at http://www.tim-mann.org/catweasel.html and cwtool 
at http://unusedino.de/cw/cwtool.html)
dmklib:  http://dmklib.brouhaha.com/

There are also virtual floppy drives you can purchase that support 
storing disk images on flash memory, that you might want to look at.

One example I have been considering:  
http://www.8bit-micro.com/anadisk-man.htm



On 6/22/2012 3:20 PM, Michael Holley wrote:
> I am doing my once a decade or so clean up and sorting. I have found working
> distribution diskettes of the shareware software PC-Write and PC-File.  I
> had to break-out a 5.25 inch drive to read these. My 2005 vintage XP machine
> only support on drive at a time so I have to open the case and hook up the
> 5.25 inch drive.
>
>
>
> I have transferred these disks to my network drive and have tested them on a
> Windows 98 laptop. I also have Norton Utilities and various copies of DOS
> going back to version 1.1. (Complete with packaging.) If there are any
> vintage PC users here I can email copies of the disk contents. Is there a
> program that makes an "ISO" type file of a bootable floppy?
>
>
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PC_Write_text_editor.png
>
>
>
> Michael Holley
>
>


From jecel at merlintec.com  Fri Jun 22 16:26:10 2012
From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:26:10 -0300 
Subject: Mac PALs
In-Reply-To: <4FE43AD5.3020808@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>
 <201206210554.q5L5sHSK036120@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4FE373E6.4090208@brouhaha.com>
 <344EE6B0-5024-4AB3-B4D7-5D3B65535682@gmail.com>
 <201206212346.q5LNkZtQ059730@billy.ezwind.net>
 <0e8801cd500c$230915c0$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FE43AD5.3020808@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <201206222126.q5MLQOfd081475@billy.ezwind.net>

Eric Smith wrote:
> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
> >    I did it on mine, all pals are protected :o(
> 
> If it's a normal production Mac, they're most likely HAL parts [...]

I think that Alexandre meant by "mine" a Unitron clone rather than an
original Apple Mac.

Wouter wrote:
> Kryten saved some of what you posted, but his website also is no more. I 
> sifted through archives, everything I could find as well as my own musings 
> are up on
>
> http://www.retro.co.za/ccc/mac/ReverseEngineering/PALs.html

Thanks! My original pages were eliminated in 2009, but I have a mirror:

http://www.merlintec.com/lsi/mac512.html

When I fixed a broken link to this on a Wikipedia page (a Talk page, not
even an article) I got banned for life for "spamming". Which is funny
since you can't get from the mirror to the main site without manually
editing the URL.

In the original 2005 discussion, I remember someone saying they had
obtained a copy of all the PALs from Apple as part of a maintenance
contract back in 1985 or so. And then he published the sources (or
mailed them in private to someone else who then published them). I can't
find any trace of that now. Like I said before, I looked at all this
material but didn't make a copy of it.

> Let's hope you didn't blow the fuses -- if you can, read them and post the 
> results?

I didn't program the PALs, the Unitron people did. And if they protected
the ones in the machine that Alexandre has, it is almost certain to be
the case for the one I have as well.

On a related issue, one of the owners of Unitron has claimed in two
separate interviews that they had 300 machines in a warehouse. I really,
really doubt this (though 300 cases instead of whole machines might be
possible). When I turned in my design to Unitron in late 1987, Alberto
told me "We tried your equations on all the machines we have and out of
the 30 about half didn't have sound". The project was killed in practice
soon after that and I doubt that they built more than a couple of extra
machines as part of the Mac 1024 project. But there are some people out
there waiting for those 300 clones to turn up some day...

-- Jecel



From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 22 16:43:01 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:43:01 -0700
Subject: Weird Prices on E-Bay
In-Reply-To: <m1Si8vi-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
References: <SNT129-W3996A0E30908ED1FD2DC96A3FD0@phx.gbl> from "dwight elvey"
 at Jun 21, 12 03:17:13 pm,<m1Si8vi-000J4ZC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W562CB6E877668944582282A3FC0@phx.gbl>



 

> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk
 
---snip---
> 
> > cells were my primary source of mercury when I was a kidI used to scrounge =
> 
> Did they contain elemental mercury? Or did you find soem way to extract 
> it from the compounds?

 It was easily removed. It was elemental mercury in what I think was
some kind of manganese oxide or something. I'd just crush it in water
and slosh it atound. Soon a ball of mercury would collect. I'd then
push it around on a paper towel until it was nice and shiny. Then
into the jar I kept it in.
 I must have had a couple pounds of it at one time. I've no idea
what happened to it.
Dwight
  		 	   		  

From jecel at merlintec.com  Fri Jun 22 16:58:23 2012
From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:58:23 -0300 
Subject: Mac PALs
In-Reply-To: <201206222126.q5MLQOfd081475@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <m1ShS1Y-000J4hC@p850ug1>
 <201206210554.q5L5sHSK036120@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4FE373E6.4090208@brouhaha.com>
 <344EE6B0-5024-4AB3-B4D7-5D3B65535682@gmail.com>
 <201206212346.q5LNkZtQ059730@billy.ezwind.net>
 <0e8801cd500c$230915c0$6400a8c0@tababook> <4FE43AD5.3020808@brouhaha.com>
 <201206222126.q5MLQOfd081475@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <201206222158.q5MLwZET081932@billy.ezwind.net>

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 18:26:10 -0300, I wrote:
> On a related issue, one of the owners of Unitron has claimed in two
> separate interviews that they had 300 machines in a warehouse. I really,
> really doubt this (though 300 cases instead of whole machines might be
> possible). When I turned in my design to Unitron in late 1987, Alberto
> told me "We tried your equations on all the machines we have and out of
> the 30 about half didn't have sound".

But in 1995 I had written (http://www.merlintec.com/lsi/mac512.html):
> [...] they had modified some 15 machines and half of them were having
> problems with sound [...]

I'll trust my 1995 memory of the event more than my 2012 memory ;-)
At least "15" and "half" appear in both versions, if not exactly in the
same way.

-- Jecel



From a50mhzham at gmail.com  Fri Jun 22 17:38:26 2012
From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:38:26 -0500
Subject: Homer lives
In-Reply-To: <201206221642.q5MGgFYX14155906@floodgap.com>
References: <201206221642.q5MGgFYX14155906@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4fe4f421.c30f320a.687c.0c93@mx.google.com>

At 11:42 AM 6/22/2012, you wrote:
>This 9000/350 was Stan Sieler's, IIRC, and passed through an intermediary who
>couldn't maintain space for it, so I ended up with it and I put it in storage
>until I could get space myself. Now that I have space, Homer is resurrected.
>It is a 9000/350 (25MHz '020 + '881), 16MB RAM, 670MB main drive, HP-UX 8.0.
>And I still have 10b2 on my 10MBit backbone, so it plugged right in.

Niiice! Looks very clean, and obviously working.

We still have two HP machines running HP-UX as 
part of our AVL system (automatic vehicle 
locating.) The county  buses all have GPS units 
on them, and when the GPS is shadowed out 
downtown between buildings, there's a connection 
from the odometer to the processor on the bus, so 
it can dead-reckon its position until it gets a GPS fix again.

I wish I could remember what kind of systems they 
are, or what version of HP-UX (might be 9?) but I 
do know the desktop is CDE. All I know is we have 
lot of 2GB SCSI drives dying and they're hard to 
find. Have to buy them on e-pay.

-T




461 . [Oops] "I have traveled the length and 
breadth of this country and talked with the best 
people, and I can assure you that data processing 
is a fad that won't last out the year." --The 
editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957.
NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio)
"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK
43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc
LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician 
? Registered Linux User 385531




From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun 22 18:09:50 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 16:09:50 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <147001cd50ad$f2b0a6c0$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <20120621141758.X38618@shell.lmi.net>,
 <147001cd50ad$f2b0a6c0$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <4FE498CE.25143.1AB45E5@cclist.sydex.com>

On 22 Jun 2012 at 16:33, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:

> 
>     Page not avaiable here :(

Just go to archive.org and enter "TRS-80 Model 16" into the search 
box.  The manual should be the first hit.

--Chuck



From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 22 18:31:51 2012
From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 19:31:51 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@YAHOO.COM>

Hi

Along these lines, does anyone know of a "minimal" 68030 circuit schematic?
Basically a 68030 CPU with RAM, ROM, and a UART or other simple IO?  With
emphasis on "minimal" as in as few components as practical?

I am thinking a 68030 SBC would be neat with a timer, a couple of serial
ports, and a Propeller for VGA, PS/2 keyboard, and microSD.  No bus
expansion, IDE, or floppy controller to keep part count low.

68030 is the first of the 68K line with the MMU built in so it would be Un*x
capable assuming 16MB (SIMM) RAM.

I am not looking for Mac, Atari, Amiga, etc compatibility.

Constructive ideas appreciated.  Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
> On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas
> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 1:18 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
> 
> 
>     Dear friends,
> 
>     Can anyone recommend a nice design for a 68000 SBC for learning?
> 
>     I'm interested in something simple, to learn more about 68000 hardware
> 
>     Thanks
>     Alexandre
> 
> ---
> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br



From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Jun 22 18:50:44 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 16:50:44 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@YAHOO.COM>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@YAHOO.COM>
Message-ID: <4FE504D4.70009@bitsavers.org>

On 6/22/12 4:31 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:
> Hi
>
> Along these lines, does anyone know of a "minimal" 68030 circuit schematic?
> Basically a 68030 CPU with RAM, ROM, and a UART or other simple IO?  With
> emphasis on "minimal" as in as few components as practical?
>
> I am thinking a 68030 SBC would be neat with a timer, a couple of serial
> ports, and a Propeller for VGA, PS/2 keyboard, and microSD.  No bus
> expansion, IDE, or floppy controller to keep part count low.
>
> 68030 is the first of the 68K line with the MMU built in so it would be Un*x
> capable assuming 16MB (SIMM) RAM.
>
> I am not looking for Mac, Atari, Amiga, etc compatibility.
>
> Constructive ideas appreciated.  Thanks and have a nice day!
>

http://web.archive.org/web/20010302122353/http://www.derivation.com/~cyliax/ws030.html



From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Jun 22 19:02:10 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:02:10 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FE504D4.70009@bitsavers.org>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@YAHOO.COM> <4FE504D4.70009@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4FE50782.6000207@bitsavers.org>

On 6/22/12 4:50 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 6/22/12 4:31 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> Along these lines, does anyone know of a "minimal" 68030 circuit schematic?
>> Basically a 68030 CPU with RAM, ROM, and a UART or other simple IO? With
>> emphasis on "minimal" as in as few components as practical?
>>
>> I am thinking a 68030 SBC would be neat with a timer, a couple of serial
>> ports, and a Propeller for VGA, PS/2 keyboard, and microSD. No bus
>> expansion, IDE, or floppy controller to keep part count low.
>>
>> 68030 is the first of the 68K line with the MMU built in so it would be Un*x
>> capable assuming 16MB (SIMM) RAM.
>>
>> I am not looking for Mac, Atari, Amiga, etc compatibility.
>>
>> Constructive ideas appreciated. Thanks and have a nice day!
>>
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20010302122353/http://www.derivation.com/~cyliax/ws030.html
>

mirrored here

http://retro.co.za/68000/ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/goo/



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 22 19:06:04 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:06:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
Message-ID: <1340409964.75854.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


Andrew, Ive never seen its schematic, but the Apollo mobo I have is the most basic 030 Ive seen. Granted Ive really only gawked at Macs. Ill need to pull it out of storage. The only feature that stood out is a big ugly black chip that one might suspect was a mmu. It is a big mobo though. Maybe someone else can chime in.


From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Jun 22 19:13:50 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:13:50 -0700
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FE356BB.7807.1AD45DC@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <20120620173546.V93886@shell.lmi.net>,
 <4FE30A22.11535.8211CA@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FE3B2A1.8060900@brouhaha.com> <4FE356BB.7807.1AD45DC@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FE50A3E.6030009@brouhaha.com>

I wrote:
> Speaking of which, how do you remove them from a Model 16?  The screws
> on the top side are easy enough to get to, but what about the bottom?

Chuck Guzis wrote:
> I've had them out on a couple of occasions--once to replace a failed 
> +12V regulator, the other to replace the electrolytic and fuse on the 
> same line, but on the other drive--and I don't recall it being a big 
> deal. About all I remember is that both drives come out as a unit. If 
> you're really flummoxed, I can go take a look.

I'm fairly flummoxed. I'm not very mechanically inclined, so it's not 
obvious to me how to get them out.  I did find one bracket that seemed 
to be holding the metal plate under the drive down to the bottom of the 
case, and removed it, but it didn't seem to help, so there must still be 
something else holding it.

Thanks!
Eric



From james at slor.net  Fri Jun 22 20:31:27 2012
From: james at slor.net (James)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 21:31:27 -0400
Subject: PC-Write and PC-File Shareware
In-Reply-To: <001301cd50b4$66dfc9d0$349f5d70$@comcast.net>
References: <001301cd50b4$66dfc9d0$349f5d70$@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <00e201cd50df$e9796ab0$bc6c4010$@slor.net>

Sure - grab yourself something like winimage (www.winimage.com) or some
version of rawread to create the images.  I like WinImage in that it doesn't
make mistakes about the floppy size as I've seen with some other apps.  I
happen to be a collector of original disk images myself, so I'd be happy to
take (and make available) any classic disk images you want to make.

James

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Michael Holley
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 4:20 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: PC-Write and PC-File Shareware

I am doing my once a decade or so clean up and sorting. I have found working
distribution diskettes of the shareware software PC-Write and PC-File.  I
had to break-out a 5.25 inch drive to read these. My 2005 vintage XP machine
only support on drive at a time so I have to open the case and hook up the
5.25 inch drive.

 

I have transferred these disks to my network drive and have tested them on a
Windows 98 laptop. I also have Norton Utilities and various copies of DOS
going back to version 1.1. (Complete with packaging.) If there are any
vintage PC users here I can email copies of the disk contents. Is there a
program that makes an "ISO" type file of a bootable floppy?

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PC_Write_text_editor.png

 

Michael Holley



From dennis.yurichev at gmail.com  Fri Jun 22 06:15:11 2012
From: dennis.yurichev at gmail.com (Dennis Yurichev)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 14:15:11 +0300
Subject: Z80 CPU microcode and internals
Message-ID: <CAPPDC1=gck-HaX2tNkAdz5dW65Dzfo_aeQD7qZ=Q9TM=qYqzRg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi.

I'm looking for any information related to Z80 CPU internals,
microcode, sequencer, etc.
Is it possible to rebuild it in Verilog/VHDL/TTL on breadboard with
all that undocumented instructions, etc?
Here is what I found so far about machine cycles, but obviously, it's
not enough:
http://www.msxarchive.nl/pub/msx/mirrors/msx2.com/zaks/z80prg02.htm


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun 23 03:34:04 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 01:34:04 -0700
Subject: Z80 CPU microcode and internals
In-Reply-To: <CAPPDC1=gck-HaX2tNkAdz5dW65Dzfo_aeQD7qZ=Q9TM=qYqzRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPPDC1=gck-HaX2tNkAdz5dW65Dzfo_aeQD7qZ=Q9TM=qYqzRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE51D0C.19799.3AFDAB5@cclist.sydex.com>

On 22 Jun 2012 at 14:15, Dennis Yurichev wrote:

> Hi.
> 
> I'm looking for any information related to Z80 CPU internals,
> microcode, sequencer, etc.
> Is it possible to rebuild it in Verilog/VHDL/TTL on breadboard with
> all that undocumented instructions, etc? Here is what I found so far
> about machine cycles, but obviously, it's not enough:
> http://www.msxarchive.nl/pub/msx/mirrors/msx2.com/zaks/z80prg02.htm


There are several FPGA implementations of the Z80; the first one that 
comes to mind is TV80 over at opencores.org in Verilog.

Back in the dark days, someone published an x80 CPU (probably 8080) 
done in TTL; perhaps Microcomputing, Kilobaud, DDJ; I don't recall.

--Chuck





From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Jun 23 04:06:29 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 02:06:29 -0700
Subject: Z80 CPU microcode and internals
In-Reply-To: <4FE51D0C.19799.3AFDAB5@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CAPPDC1=gck-HaX2tNkAdz5dW65Dzfo_aeQD7qZ=Q9TM=qYqzRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE51D0C.19799.3AFDAB5@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FE58715.1090803@brouhaha.com>

Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Back in the dark days, someone published an x80 CPU (probably 8080) 
> done in TTL; perhaps Microcomputing, Kilobaud, DDJ; I don't recall. 
> --Chuck 

I haven't seen that, but AMD and Signetics both published application 
notes containing designs for 8080-compatible processors using bitslice 
components, AMD using the Am2900 series, and Signetics using the 3000 
series (second-sourced from Intel).  IIRC, both are available from 
bitsavers.  Neither are implemented using logic equivalent to that 
inside the original 8080, which is the type of information the OP seemed 
to want (but for the Z80 rather than 8080).



From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Jun 23 08:50:28 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 14:50:28 +0100
Subject: Homer lives
In-Reply-To: <201206221642.q5MGgFYX14155906@floodgap.com>
References: <201206221642.q5MGgFYX14155906@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFLojVFhaLZWY94-=BpU2BjmXk1B4+3wqNN72ZTYKiTUA@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 June 2012 17:42, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
>
> http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1576
> Obligatory rear shot

Nice!

And yes, I have a 10base-2 segment, too. And I must resurrect it.

I used to have 16Gb/sec ADSL here, before I switched providers from O2
to Orange & it dropped to just under 8. ("We're sorry, sir, but that's
the maximum your line will support." Lying ?$%&@~s.)

Having the 2 spare rooms - and their lodger occupants - on a 10Mb/s
segment was a very handy way of stopping them from hogging all my
bandwidth. ;?) It also means I don't need a house full of switches,
all of which need mains sockets...

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From cctech at vax-11.org  Sat Jun 23 09:19:34 2012
From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:19:34 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Z80 CPU microcode and internals
In-Reply-To: <CAPPDC1=gck-HaX2tNkAdz5dW65Dzfo_aeQD7qZ=Q9TM=qYqzRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPPDC1=gck-HaX2tNkAdz5dW65Dzfo_aeQD7qZ=Q9TM=qYqzRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1206230819260.8901@daffy.vax-11.org>


http://opencores.org/project,t80

On Fri, 22 Jun 2012, Dennis Yurichev wrote:

> Hi.
>
> I'm looking for any information related to Z80 CPU internals,
> microcode, sequencer, etc.
> Is it possible to rebuild it in Verilog/VHDL/TTL on breadboard with
> all that undocumented instructions, etc?
> Here is what I found so far about machine cycles, but obviously, it's
> not enough:
> http://www.msxarchive.nl/pub/msx/mirrors/msx2.com/zaks/z80prg02.htm
>


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat Jun 23 09:24:52 2012
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:24:52 -0600
Subject: Z80 CPU microcode and internals
In-Reply-To: <CAPPDC1=gck-HaX2tNkAdz5dW65Dzfo_aeQD7qZ=Q9TM=qYqzRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPPDC1=gck-HaX2tNkAdz5dW65Dzfo_aeQD7qZ=Q9TM=qYqzRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE5D1B4.2070705@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 6/22/2012 5:15 AM, Dennis Yurichev wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I'm looking for any information related to Z80 CPU internals,
> microcode, sequencer, etc.
> Is it possible to rebuild it in Verilog/VHDL/TTL on breadboard with
> all that undocumented instructions, etc?
> Here is what I found so far about machine cycles, but obviously, it's
> not enough:
> http://www.msxarchive.nl/pub/msx/mirrors/msx2.com/zaks/z80prg02.htm
>
Also I belive I read many moons ago, that the Z80 also used the internal
bus capacitance to hold values to be outputted on the external address bus.
Ben.





From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 23 09:34:30 2012
From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:34:30 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <4FE50782.6000207@bitsavers.org>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@YAHOO.COM> <4FE504D4.70009@bitsavers.org>
 <4FE50782.6000207@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <002101cd514d$65ffb180$31ff1480$@YAHOO.COM>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
> On Behalf Of Al Kossow
> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 8:02 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
> 
> On 6/22/12 4:50 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> > On 6/22/12 4:31 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Along these lines, does anyone know of a "minimal" 68030 circuit
> schematic?
> >> Basically a 68030 CPU with RAM, ROM, and a UART or other simple IO?
> >> With emphasis on "minimal" as in as few components as practical?
> >>
> >> I am thinking a 68030 SBC would be neat with a timer, a couple of
> >> serial ports, and a Propeller for VGA, PS/2 keyboard, and microSD. No
> >> bus expansion, IDE, or floppy controller to keep part count low.
> >>
> >> 68030 is the first of the 68K line with the MMU built in so it would
> >> be Un*x capable assuming 16MB (SIMM) RAM.
> >>
> >> I am not looking for Mac, Atari, Amiga, etc compatibility.
> >>
> >> Constructive ideas appreciated. Thanks and have a nice day!
> >>
> >
> >
> http://web.archive.org/web/20010302122353/http://www.derivation.com/~c
> > yliax/ws030.html
> >
> 
> mirrored here
> 
> http://retro.co.za/68000/ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/goo/

Thanks Al!  Yes, that's a very nice MC68030 station and well documented.
I've reviewed the files and the workstation PCB is quite large.  It requires
a 4-layer PCB that is about the size of a PC/XT motherboard.  I think it
would be very expensive to make these PCBs for hobbyists.

What I was thinking was more a smaller scale version of this without the
PC/AT bus interface and consolidated on to a smaller more affordable PCB.  I
think this is feasible to do but I am going to need some help from hobbyists
familiar with the 68030 and able to trim the design down to fit onto a 60
square inch PCB.

Why 60 square inch?  That is the largest size PCB that Advanced Circuits
accepts for their low-cost PCB prototyping service.  The ability to make
prototype PCBs for 4 for $150 makes the project affordable without the large
up-front investment in big multi-layer PCBs.

This project is within reach but it is going to be a major undertaking.
Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sat Jun 23 09:49:52 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 07:49:52 -0700
Subject: Homer lives
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFLojVFhaLZWY94-=BpU2BjmXk1B4+3wqNN72ZTYKiTUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201206221642.q5MGgFYX14155906@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCFLojVFhaLZWY94-=BpU2BjmXk1B4+3wqNN72ZTYKiTUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0624080dcc0b87bb87ef@[192.168.1.199]>

At 2:50 PM +0100 6/23/12, Liam Proven wrote:
>And yes, I have a 10base-2 segment, too. And I must resurrect it.

Gotta have 10Base-2, both my Amiga 3000 and my DECserver expect it 
(not that I've used either in a aeon or two).

Zane


-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun 23 12:11:16 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:11:16 -0700
Subject: Z80 CPU microcode and internals
In-Reply-To: <4FE58715.1090803@brouhaha.com>
References: <CAPPDC1=gck-HaX2tNkAdz5dW65Dzfo_aeQD7qZ=Q9TM=qYqzRg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE51D0C.19799.3AFDAB5@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FE58715.1090803@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4FE59644.24370.26AFAF@cclist.sydex.com>

On 23 Jun 2012 at 2:06, Eric Smith wrote:

> I haven't seen that, but AMD and Signetics both published application
> notes containing designs for 8080-compatible processors using bitslice
> components, AMD using the Am2900 series, and Signetics using the 3000
> series (second-sourced from Intel).  IIRC, both are available from
> bitsavers.  Neither are implemented using logic equivalent to that
> inside the original 8080, which is the type of information the OP
> seemed to want (but for the Z80 rather than 8080).

The one I'm thinking of was serialized in at least two installments.  
It used 74181 ALUs.  The more I think about it, I believe it must 
have been an 8080-ish implementation.  I suspect that internal 
details would have been also pretty far from the real thing--perhaps 
microprogrammed using bipolar PROMs instead of a PLA, etc.

Does anyone havet an index to the more serious rags of the 70s era--
Microsystems, Kilobaud, etc.?

--Chuck




From ss at allegro.com  Sat Jun 23 16:13:54 2012
From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 14:13:54 -0700
Subject: Homer lives
In-Reply-To: <201206221642.q5MGgFYX14155906@floodgap.com>
References: <201206221642.q5MGgFYX14155906@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <45DB592A-80AF-4B1C-8F46-CD6FECF11124@allegro.com>

Re:

On Jun 22, 2012, at 9:42 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> This 9000/350 was Stan Sieler's, IIRC, and passed through an intermediary who
> couldn't maintain space for it, so I ended up with it and I put it in storage
> until I could get space myself. Now that I have space, Homer is resurrected.
> It is a 9000/350 (25MHz '020 + '881), 16MB RAM, 670MB main drive, HP-UX 8.0.
> And I still have 10b2 on my 10MBit backbone, so it plugged right in.
> 


Cool, thanks for the update!

Stan





From spectre at floodgap.com  Sat Jun 23 16:42:14 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 14:42:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Homer lives
In-Reply-To: <45DB592A-80AF-4B1C-8F46-CD6FECF11124@allegro.com> from Stan
 Sieler at "Jun 23, 12 02:13:54 pm"
Message-ID: <201206232142.q5NLgEK311600010@floodgap.com>

> > This 9000/350 was Stan Sieler's, IIRC,
> 
> Cool, thanks for the update!

I thought you'd enjoy seeing it live again. :)

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- If they give you ruled paper, write the other way. -- Juan Ramon Jimenez ---


From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Jun 23 17:42:00 2012
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 17:42:00 -0500
Subject: VT14, other PDP14 options available
In-Reply-To: <4FD109E4.1020407@update.uu.se>
References: <CACwhfuOwYt3ft7szUda+PM=YWtMU+HuT+CqdxXca5QO5a1YK=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD109E4.1020407@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMetLD8r7t0OzEufnQF8F1GjY4srBM_+egNaf8KoOtOLw@mail.gmail.com>

Hopefully this is a link to the pics. From what I have heard, this may
be the only one left.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/useddec/sets/72157630255893784/

Paul

On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> On 06/07/2012 09:11 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>>
>> I have a complete VT14 (except for possibly the cover screws) 14/30,
>> 14/35, and a lot of options available for serious inquires. It was
>> going to be a project down the road, but I need to shorten my list due
>> to health issues,
>>
>> Does any else out there have one, or even know of one?
>>
>> Please feel free to contact me off list.
>>
>> Thanks, Paul
>
>
> I would very much like to see some pictures. Never seen one.
>
> /P


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Jun 23 18:19:40 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:19:40 -0700
Subject: VT14, other PDP14 options available
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuMetLD8r7t0OzEufnQF8F1GjY4srBM_+egNaf8KoOtOLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOwYt3ft7szUda+PM=YWtMU+HuT+CqdxXca5QO5a1YK=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD109E4.1020407@update.uu.se>
 <CACwhfuMetLD8r7t0OzEufnQF8F1GjY4srBM_+egNaf8KoOtOLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE64F0C.5030208@bitsavers.org>

On 6/23/12 3:42 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
> Hopefully this is a link to the pics. From what I have heard, this may
> be the only one left.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/useddec/sets/72157630255893784/
>

Wow, it's in pretty rough shape. that hole in the top is not stock :-)
The top should be white.

The VT14 was used to create ladder logic descriptions which were downloaded
to Industrial 14s (second-generation PDP14 programmable logic controllers).
It is basically an 8/e with ROM and a high speed serial interface card. This
was the machine that the VT8/E was developed for.

The company I worked for in the early 80's (Process Control Systems in New
Berlin, WI) developed code which did the same thing under OS/8, eliminating
the need for VT14s.




From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Jun 23 18:22:39 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 16:22:39 -0700
Subject: KDJ11-B rev 8 boot roms
Message-ID: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org>

put these up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1173/firmware/KDJ11-B_Rev_8/
Pete Turnbull had revs 6 and 7



From rickb at bensene.com  Sat Jun 23 22:19:05 2012
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:19:05 -0700
Subject: Tektronix 4052 Firmware
Message-ID: <002d01cd51b8$1c798c14$050aa8c0@bensene.com>

Hello, all,

I have a Tektronix 4052 Graphic Computer that I believe is in workable condition, but the old Mostek MK36xxx-series mask-programmed ROM that holds the operating firmware for the machine have failed, which is apparently a common occurrence for these devices.  I have found numerous mention of these ROMs having been used in test equipment that "forget" after 10 to 15 years after production.  I found the archive of 4052 firmware on Bitsavers, but am wondering if anyone out there has any suggestions as to what to do to replace the failed ROM with something of more current technology that will work.  The firmware consists of 64K bytes of code.   The Mostek ROMs are 24 pin devices, 5V supply, that use a clocked chip select signal, meaning that any replacement will have to emulate the clocking access scheme.  There were Motorola-made programmable devices that could directly replace the Mostek parts, but these seem to be virtually unobtainable today..and even if I could find 8 of them, I don't have anything that could program them.  Any other 8K x 8 ROM is in a 28 pin package, which would require some clumsy adapters to work.    Along with the ROM itself, the 4052 had a unique  ROMpatch implementation that allowed up to 48 ROM locations to be ''patched' in real time, and this involved a PLA device that did the address matching, and a fast bipolar ROM that contained that data to be substituted at the location to be patched.  Duplicating the patched code could also prove to be very difficult. I am wondering if anyone out there may have run into the same situation with a 4052 and came up with a solution.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Rick

From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Jun 23 22:38:45 2012
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:38:45 -0500
Subject: VT14, other PDP14 options available
In-Reply-To: <4FE64F0C.5030208@bitsavers.org>
References: <CACwhfuOwYt3ft7szUda+PM=YWtMU+HuT+CqdxXca5QO5a1YK=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FD109E4.1020407@update.uu.se>
 <CACwhfuMetLD8r7t0OzEufnQF8F1GjY4srBM_+egNaf8KoOtOLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE64F0C.5030208@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuN8AKxKCS=Lz034RJV1s7a=NeJQaAP=mYANPeDYPWyDTw@mail.gmail.com>

The top is aluminum with a square mesh area for ventilation. It was
black but some of the paint has flaked off. It looked like the
original cover to me. A white terminal in an industrial enviroment?

There were two keys missing, and one was inside, maybe the other one too.

I have extras for most of the boards, bot did not see a DEC part
number on the power supply, and have no idea what's in there.

I've seen worse come out looking great after a good refurb.

On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 6:19 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> On 6/23/12 3:42 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>>
>> Hopefully this is a link to the pics. From what I have heard, this may
>> be the only one left.
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/useddec/sets/72157630255893784/
>>
>
> Wow, it's in pretty rough shape. that hole in the top is not stock :-)
> The top should be white.
>
> The VT14 was used to create ladder logic descriptions which were downloaded
> to Industrial 14s (second-generation PDP14 programmable logic controllers).
> It is basically an 8/e with ROM and a high speed serial interface card. This
> was the machine that the VT8/E was developed for.
>
> The company I worked for in the early 80's (Process Control Systems in New
> Berlin, WI) developed code which did the same thing under OS/8, eliminating
> the need for VT14s.
>
>


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sat Jun 23 22:45:46 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 20:45:46 -0700
Subject: Tektronix 4052 Firmware
In-Reply-To: <002d01cd51b8$1c798c14$050aa8c0@bensene.com>
References: <002d01cd51b8$1c798c14$050aa8c0@bensene.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKM2yXG_cEn-yen+vTzACrHhatYGvT_rwp+m-Qhg-CpKw@mail.gmail.com>

Is the MCM68766 a compatible replacement EPROM?

Those are available for $8 each at www.unicornelectronics.com


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Sun Jun 24 04:53:53 2012
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:53:53 +0100
Subject: KDJ11-B rev 8 boot roms
In-Reply-To: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org>
References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4FE6E3B1.5010507@dunnington.plus.com>

On 24/06/2012 00:22, Al Kossow wrote:
> put these up under
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1173/firmware/KDJ11-B_Rev_8/
> Pete Turnbull had revs 6 and 7

Actually I had Rev.7 and Rev.8, but not Rev.6 so if anyone has 23-077E5
and 23-078E5 from an M8190 they''d be nice to get dumps of.

http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sun Jun 24 08:26:29 2012
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 09:26:29 -0400
Subject: Users of K52 and K62 variants of KED
Message-ID: <4FE71585.7060003@compsys.to>

Of the nine variants of KED developed by DEC, it seems
doubtful that either K52 or K62 are in use at this point.

I have mentioned in the past that a new variant, K42, which
now supports a VT420 with 48 lines is available.  Inspection
of the code for K42 suggests that improvements can be made
with respect to the allocation of memory.  In particular, while
K42.SAV is LINKed to execute under an Unmapped RT-11
Monitor, for versions of RT-11 which include VBGEXE, virtual
memory can be used under a Mapped Monitor.  These same
improvements to K42 can also be added to K52 and K62 so
that if these variants are executed under a Mapped Monitor,
more efficient use can be made of the available memory.  One
of the improvements can be an increase in the size of the cut
and paste buffer.

If no one still uses a VT52 or a VT62 terminal, then there does
not seem to be any point to including these improvements in
K52 and K62.  Please respond if there is any interest to actually
use K52 or K62 under a Mapped RT-11 Monitor.

Jerome Fine


From ark72axow at msn.com  Sun Jun 24 04:41:11 2012
From: ark72axow at msn.com (Jeffrey Brace)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 05:41:11 -0400
Subject: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
Message-ID: <SNT104-DS122C1BE804599C50304726B9E20@phx.gbl>

Hello everyone,

I was hoping for some definite direction in my endless quest to fix my C64. I don't have a lot of free time to work on this. So it is ongoing in many ways. Plus I am cautious about doing things that I know little about. Which can be good especially when you get people that give you conflicting advice. I do find a lot of helpful people on IRC, but you have to sort out what they are all telling you. I won't want to go and start buying all sorts of stuff and equipment without knowing why or then finding that I should have bought Y, when I bought X. 

I know a little. Bits and pieces here and there, but nothing that will give me confidence to just dive in.

This is my quest to learn how to repair my C64:

I started with my original C64 which I bought in 1987. I had left it in a garage for two years and then tried to use it and it didn't work. 
First I was told that I should clean my C64 with regular dish detergent and a hair dryer. I was told that this would solve many problems. Sounds unsafe, but I guess I will try it.
Then I was told that I should buy another C64 since it isn't worth repairing them, since they are so plentifully available and cheap. So now I have many non-working ones.
Then I need to replace chips that are bad, so I need to know how to solder and de-solder. Which kind of device to get ? There are different wattages and if you do it wrong then you burn up your boards (as a friend of mine did with more soldering experience did). Do I get a combination desolder sucker ? Or a little squeeze one ? Or a push and suck stick ? Do I get a soldering station ? A braider ? Too many different choices and combinations. I prefer something that will work and not damage my boards, and for desoldering, something that won't give me repetitive stress injury.
Then I'm told to get a diagnostic cartridge for C64, which works well expect when the PLA chip is bad and there you can't see video.
Then I should get a diagnostic harness, which works better, but again you need video.
Then I find a Diagnose 64 cartridge which tells you which chips are bad very simply with LED lights, but they are hard to find. I'm borrowing one right now from a friend and figuring out how to use now.
Then I'm told to get a multimeter, how do I use ? Which one to get ? I get one, then I'm told there is a better that could have been gotten for a little more money. 
Then I'm told to get a logic probe. Which one ? Again, how to use ?
Then I'm told a logic probe is not as good as an oscilloscope. Which one ? How to use ? Then I'm told that I don't need an oscilloscope.
Then I'm told to go to Ray Carlsen's site and that will have everything I need. http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm.html. Which is very nice, but I'm a beginner and I don't need just a bunch of schematics and reference material. I need step by step method which explains which tools, techniques etc. that I need to do.
Then I'm told that going to the Rob Clarke and Bil Herd workshop would give me everything that I need to know. It is good information, but not hands on.

Jeff B

From hauke at Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE  Sun Jun 24 12:16:48 2012
From: hauke at Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 19:16:48 +0200
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <002101cd514d$65ffb180$31ff1480$@YAHOO.COM>
References: <4FE50782.6000207@bitsavers.org> <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@YAHOO.COM>
 <4FE504D4.70009@bitsavers.org> <4FE50782.6000207@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <l03102800cc0cf99ef05d@q840.causeuse.org>

At 10:34 Uhr -0400 23.6.2012, Andrew Lynch wrote:
>> http://retro.co.za/68000/ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/goo/
>
>Thanks Al!  Yes, that's a very nice MC68030 station and well documented.
>I've reviewed the files and the workstation PCB is quite large.  It requires
>a 4-layer PCB that is about the size of a PC/XT motherboard.  I think it
>would be very expensive to make these PCBs for hobbyists.
>
>What I was thinking was more a smaller scale version of this without the
>PC/AT bus interface and consolidated on to a smaller more affordable PCB.

Comes to mind - c't had a 68K ECB card in vol. 11/1985, p. 62f.

It is not a simple design, since it has to map the 68k bus to ECB, but uses
only one PAL. Drop me a note if you want the (German) article scanned.

There were also a 68000 based and a 68008 based SBC design.

	hauke

--
"It's never straight up and down"     (DEVO)




From Arno_1983 at gmx.de  Sun Jun 24 14:09:56 2012
From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 21:09:56 +0200
Subject: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II)
Message-ID: <20120624190956.220750@gmx.net>

Hello Dr. Duell!

ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
> How comples is this controller board that's removed? Is it possible to 
> recreate it, and thus covnert a normal Nikon camera to work with the 
> film reocerder? 

The board doesn't look overly complicated to me (there is a raster image on the page I linked to), all it has on it besides a DIP-16 IC is a resistor, a tantalum cap and another axial component which is obscured by wires in the pictures, possibly a (zener?) diode. The print on the IC is alas covered by a large sticker reading "IC# 7" that IME often indicates it is a custom-programmed part anyway.

> Alas (for you), the only Nikon I own has no electtornics in it at all. 
> The only electrical part is the flash contact.
>
> -tony

If it has provisions for both a motor winder and an external shutter release, I'd suspect you'd find a way to interface it nevertheless, were you to try...

One more interesting question would be what kind of lens is required for the recorder application. IIRC there are no refractive optical elements  inside the recorder stand as it is now, the CRT faceplate is in plain sight behind a cover glass and the selected filter. I can't measure the distance right now as the recorder is in storage, but I'd roughly estimate somewhere around 20-30cm to the camera seating plane.

Arno
-- 
Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Jun 24 14:24:03 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 20:24:03 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <SNT104-DS122C1BE804599C50304726B9E20@phx.gbl> from "Jeffrey
 Brace" at Jun 24, 12 05:41:11 am
Message-ID: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1>

> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I was hoping for some definite direction in my endless quest to fix my =

OK, but be warned you might not like my answers :-). 

> C64. I don't have a lot of free time to work on this. So it is ongoing =
> in many ways. Plus I am cautious about doing things that I know little =
> about. Which can be good especially when you get people that give you =
> conflicting advice. I do find a lot of helpful people on IRC, but you =
> have to sort out what they are all telling you. I won't want to go and =
> start buying all sorts of stuff and equipment without knowing why or =
> then finding that I should have bought Y, when I bought X.=20
> 
> I know a little. Bits and pieces here and there, but nothing that will =
> give me confidence to just dive in.
> 
> This is my quest to learn how to repair my C64:
> 
> I started with my original C64 which I bought in 1987. I had left it in =
> a garage for two years and then tried to use it and it didn't work.=20
> First I was told that I should clean my C64 with regular dish detergent =
> and a hair dryer. I was told that this would solve many problems. Sounds =
> unsafe, but I guess I will try it.
> Then I was told that I should buy another C64 since it isn't worth =
> repairing them, since they are so plentifully available and cheap. So =
> now I have many non-working ones.

Err, yes... Been therem, done that (but not with C64s...).

Whether something is worth repairing is up to you. It may well not make 
financial sense to repair a C64, given how commn they are and how cheap 
they tenet to me, but the fiannacial rason is not the only reason for 
doing something (in fact to me it's rarely a reason at all). If you want 
otlearn how to repair things, it's not a bad machine to start on. And you 
will learn a lot. You might even come to ejoy it. THose seem to me to be 
reasons why it is worth repariign a C64.

Much of what follows is not going to be C64-specific. That;s not 
suprising, IMHO almost all computers -- darn it, all electronic devices 
-- are diagnosed and repaired in much the ame way,

There are 2 parts ot the repair. First you must find out what is wrong, 
second you put it right. Notice the order there. It is, IMHO, very 
foolish to start trying to reapri things, replace parts, etc until you 
have a lcear idea as to what is wrong amd what therefore needs replacing. 
Since your questions are in the opposite order, I will anseer them like 
that, though.


> Then I need to replace chips that are bad, so I need to know how to =
> solder and de-solder. Which kind of device to get ? There are different =
> wattages and if you do it wrong then you burn up your boards (as a =
> friend of mine did with more soldering experience did). Do I get a =

My view (having strugled with them) is that the 
non-tempearture-controlled hobbyist irons, things like the 25W ones that 
I guess Radio Shack sells, are not worth trying to use. You will have 
lots of problems and you will get frustrated fast.

A tempaerature-cotnroled iron is the thing to go for. I use a Weller TCP, 
about 50W. A non-controlled 50W iron would get hot enough to damage the 
board and components, bnt this has a thermostat built-in to keep the 
temperature constant(ish). And being a 50W iron it has enoguh power to 
heat up large bits of metal, like PCB ground planes, screenign cans, etc. 

Others swear by electronic-controlled irons, still others by RF-heated 
irons, etc. They are nice, but very expensive. 

> combination desolder sucker ? Or a little squeeze one ? Or a push and =
> suck stick ? Do I get a soldering station ? A braider ? Too many =
> different choices and combinations. I prefer something that will work =
> and not damage my boards, and for desoldering, something that won't give =
> me repetitive stress injury.

Unless you are sondiering buying a professioanl desoldering station (and 
I doubt it), but one of those little spring-loaded pumps. Make sure you 
can get repalcement (ptfe) tips for it, you will need them from time to 
time. 

You will ahve to practice using it. A couple of quick tips. Firstly, if 
you are sure a component is bad, cut off the pins, remvoe the body of the 
componet, and despdler the pins one at a time. Often you can just melt 
the sodler and yank the pin out with pliers. To claer the holes in the 
PCB (sometimes needed anyway), it's easiest ot melt the soder with the 
iron on one side of the PCB and such from the other side. 

If A pin won't desolder cleanly, resodler it (use soem new solder) and 
try again. Often that does it.

As regards RSI. I once upgraded the memory board in an HP Integral. The 
board I had was half-populakted with RAM chips, but it had (of course) 
been wave-soldered at the factory, so all the spare holes were blocked. I 
had to clar out 256 holes (16 RAM chips at 16 pins each) plus those for 
decoupling capacitors etc, My hand ached a bit afterwards, but no harm 
done...


> Then I'm told to get a diagnostic cartridge for C64, which works well =
> expect when the PLA chip is bad and there you can't see video.
> Then I should get a diagnostic harness, which works better, but again =
> you need video.
> Then I find a Diagnose 64 cartridge which tells you which chips are bad =
> very simply with LED lights, but they are hard to find. I'm borrowing =
> one right now from a friend and figuring out how to use now.
> Then I'm told to get a multimeter, how do I use ? Which one to get ? I =
> get one, then I'm told there is a better that could have been gotten for =
> a little more money.=20
> Then I'm told to get a logic probe. Which one ? Again, how to use ?
> Then I'm told a logic probe is not as good as an oscilloscope. Which one =
> ? How to use ? Then I'm told that I don't need an oscilloscope.
> Then I'm told to go to Ray Carlsen's site and that will have everything =
> I need. http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm.html. Which is very =
> nice, but I'm a beginner and I don't need just a bunch of schematics and =
> reference material. I need step by step method which explains which =
> tools, techniques etc. that I need to do.
> Then I'm told that going to the Rob Clarke and Bil Herd workshop would =
> give me everything that I need to know. It is good information, but not =
> hands on.

OK... Let's take a step back.

The wway I repair things -- the way I learnt to repair things many years 
ago -- goes like this : 

1) Work out what the thing _should_ be doing

2) Find out what it actually is doing

3) Compare the two

4) Figure out what could case the observed behaviour to differ from the 
expected behaviour, that's the fault. If necessary do more tests to find 
out exactly what is wrong.

Now let's look at some of those steps. The scheamtic sare useful to work 
out wwhat it should be doing. Somebody with experience can look at a 
schemaitc and have a good idea as to what the signals, voltages, etc 
should be on most points in the circuit. Yes, that is a big step for a 
beginner, but most service manaulas were not written fro beginners. When 
you have more experience you will come to realise that often all you 
really need is the schematic.  Of coruse sometimes other have been 
helpful and noted down foltages (e.g. power supply otuputs voltages), 
signals 9e.g. master clock signals, video timing signals) so you don't 
have to work them allout for yourself.

The next problem is that you cna't useuflly detect electricity yourself. 
So you need measuring insturments to do that. These will tell you what 
hte circuit is actually doing, step (2) of my procedure. There are many 
bits of test equipment aviaalble, some general-purpose (used with jus 
abotu all electrical/electornic devices), some very specialised. Let's 
stick to the general-purpose ones.

A multimeter measures voltage, current or resistnace (if you are not 
familiar with those terms then you really need to start by going back a 
few stanges and learnign some basic electroncis before you start fixing 
computers). It's by far the most used test instrument. You se it to check 
power supply voltages (a very common problem), to test swithces, 
connectors, etc. It's not so useful for fiding logic fualts.

An oscilloscope (oftne shortened to 'scope) is a device that displays a 
graph of votlage (vertial) agaisnt time (horizontal) (OK, I know there 
are many otehr thigns it can be used for, but let's keep things simple 
for now). The simpler 'scopes ahve no intenral storage and are really 
only useful on repetitive waveforms. For example the AC ouptut form a 
mains transformer, the signals in a swithcing regulator (but take _great_ 
care if you start workign on these!), video timing signals, etc. More 
advanced/modern 'scopes have storage. You can get them to record voltae 
agaisn time for pwehaps 10us and then display the grpah for evermore. So 
you could look at the continuosuly clangin signals on a computer bus.

a logic probe is a farily simple insrument that displays on LEDs wheter a 
signal is a logic 1, a logic 0 or changing. Althoguh it is simple, it's 
suprisingly useful. FOr example, if a comuputer is running a program, all 
the data bus lines are changing as the instructions are red by the 
processor. So touchign the logic probe onto each of them in turn should 
show that on the probe's LEDs. If one signal is always high or low you 
know you have a fault there. 

An instruemnt you haven;'t mentioned and which I find vey useful is a 
logic analuser. This is cross between a logic probe and a storage 'scope. 
It samples nad records a number of logic signals and displays them. OK, 
it doesn't record the actuall voltages, only whether they are 0 or 1, but 
it will orten record faster than a cheap storage 'scope and it will 
record more signals (32 channel logic analusers are commmon, 32 channel 
storage 'scopes are not). 

Some years ago HP made a pocket-sized logic analyser that they called an 
'advanded logic probe'. It went under the name LogicDart. It was as easy 
to sue as a lotgic probe, but told you rather more about the devic eunder 
test. They are not easy to find now, but I find mine (bought when it just 
came out) very useful.

I don;t find things like diagnostic programs or cartridges to be useful. 
The point is, they are running on a piece of defective hardware so (a) 
there will always be faults they can't find (a diagnostic program is not 
goign to be able ot find PSU problems in a C64, for example) nad they 
might well give misleading reuslts because the hardware is 
malfunctioning. They have their uses for finding problems in 
non-essential areas fo the machine (for exampel if a C64 ahs sound 
problems, you might have a program to put the right vaulse in the SID 
chip to prosduce a known output), but not for intiial troubleshooting.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Jun 24 15:04:26 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 21:04:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II)
In-Reply-To: <20120624190956.220750@gmx.net> from "Arno Kletzander" at Jun 24,
 12 09:09:56 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sit2v-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> 
> Hello Dr. Duell!
> 
> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
> > How comples is this controller board that's removed? Is it possible to 
> > recreate it, and thus covnert a normal Nikon camera to work with the 
> > film reocerder? 
> 
> The board doesn't look overly complicated to me (there is a raster 
> image on the page I linked to), all it has on it besides a DIP-16 IC is 
> a resistor, a tantalum cap and another axial component which is obscured 
> by wires in the pictures, possibly a (zener?) diode. The print on the IC 
> is alas covered by a large sticker reading "IC# 7" that IME often 
> indicates it is a custom-programmed part anyway. 

When wa this made. There weren't many 16 pi nprogrammable parts other 
htan bbipolar PROMs (which doesn't sound likely here) in the 'classic 
era'. Of course tere are such parts now.

> 
> > Alas (for you), the only Nikon I own has no electtornics in it at all. 
> > The only electrical part is the flash contact.
> >
> > -tony
> 
> If it has provisions for both a motor winder and an external shutter 
> release, I'd suspect you'd find a way to interface it nevertheless, were 
> you to try... 

There was a motordrive for the Nikon F, but it is very dififcult to find. 
And it requires a diffenrt base casting under the shutter to pring out 
various cotnrol levers to the motordrive (to indicate, for example, when 
the shutter has copmpleted its open/close operation). That part is ever 
harder to find.

Have you treid looking for a service manual for the camera on the web? 
Some Niko ncamera man aulas are there. THe 'electronic' one I looked at 
(F3) didn't include full schematcs, but it did have a wiring diagram and 
soem theory of operation. It's a possible source of information.

> 
> One more interesting question would be what kind of lens is required 
> for the recorder application. IIRC there are no refractive optical 
> elements  inside the recorder stand as it is now, the CRT faceplate is 
> in plain sight behind a cover glass and the selected filter. I can't 
> measure the distance right now as the recorder is in storage, but I'd 
> roughly estimate somewhere around 20-30cm to the camera seating plane. 

Well, any converging lens sould work optically...

I might be able to help, though. I have a 'Polaroid Videopritner 4', for 
all Polaroid assured me they had never made such a beast... This is 
similar, but lower-reulotuon device, it displys TV-rate video on an 
internal CRT and photographs it.

There's a colour fitler wheel (red, green, blue and a hole) so it cna 
print a colour inamge in 3 goes. 

Anywy, I did get the camera with mine. It's a normal SX70 polaroid back 
and an enlarger lense mounted in a suiable tube. It makes a lot of 
sense, an enlarger lense is designed ot be uysed at those sort of 
distances nad will be corrected for that (unlike a normal camera lens 
which is typoically corrected for much more distant objects -- this is 
why put the lens on back-to-front is often recoemnted for close-ups, 
where the objed distnace is less than the image distance). 

My guess is that he lest uses in your unit was either an enlarger lens or 
maybe a 'macro lens'. Nikon cetainly made the latter to fit their 
cameras. They made enlarger lenses too (the EL-Nikkors) but you'd need an 
adapter to fit those to a camera.

-tony


From jws at jwsss.com  Sun Jun 24 15:23:33 2012
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 13:23:33 -0700
Subject: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II)
In-Reply-To: <m1Sit2v-000J4TC@p850ug1>
References: <m1Sit2v-000J4TC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FE77745.8080906@jwsss.com>


On 6/24/2012 1:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>> >If it has provisions for both a motor winder and an external shutter
>> >release, I'd suspect you'd find a way to interface it nevertheless, were
>> >you to try...
> There was a motordrive for the Nikon F, but it is very dififcult to find.
> And it requires a diffenrt base casting under the shutter to pring out
> various cotnrol levers to the motordrive (to indicate, for example, when
> the shutter has copmpleted its open/close operation). That part is ever
> harder to find.
>
> Have you treid looking for a service manual for the camera on the web?
> Some Niko ncamera man aulas are there. THe 'electronic' one I looked at
> (F3) didn't include full schematcs, but it did have a wiring diagram and
> soem theory of operation. It's a possible source of information.
The motorized F body is the F-36.  The body can be converted by drilling 
holes in the bottom plate of the camera.  I don't have one that has a 
modified plate there, the plates all match on my F's the difference 
being that the motor requires the holes.

there is an electrical release mechanism for the F-36 via a two pronged 
connector on the right side of the motor.

I have several of the F bodies, and they show up regularly on ePay. I 
don't know whether the motor on the F has any

A nice page for the F-36 is shown below.

http://www.mir.com.my/michaeliu/cameras/nikonf/fmotors/f36/index.htm

Does look like the F approach would be in the 200 dollar range minimum 
maybe 400 if you really don't want to hunt for a long time (assuming you 
have the body).





From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Jun 24 15:49:11 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 13:49:11 -0700
Subject: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <SNT104-DS122C1BE804599C50304726B9E20@phx.gbl> from "Jeffrey
 Brace" at Jun 24, 12 05:41:11 am, <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FE71AD7.15101.1057A89@cclist.sydex.com>

On 24 Jun 2012 at 20:24, Tony Duell wrote:

> As regards RSI. I once upgraded the memory board in an HP Integral.
> The board I had was half-populakted with RAM chips, but it had (of
> course) been wave-soldered at the factory, so all the spare holes were
> blocked. I had to clar out 256 holes (16 RAM chips at 16 pins each)
> plus those for decoupling capacitors etc, My hand ached a bit
> afterwards, but no harm done...

Lately, I've been using one of those  soldapullt-in-an-iron gizmos 
that come from China.  The iron has a solder-sucker as a handle and a 
hollow tip on a 40W iron.  It does a respectable job of clearing 
plugged holes and desoldering through-hold components.   It can be 
cocked and triggered using one hand. The free-air equilibrium 
temperature is low enough so as not to lift traces.  For about 
USD$30, it's not a bad thing to have, though it's pretty far from a 
regular rework station.  Like any desoldering iron, keeping the tip 
tinned is a bother, but not too awful.

But Tony's right--when it comes to soldering, practice makes perfect. 
There's no substitute for that.

The same goes for troubleshooting.  You learn something, apply it, 
lather, rinse, repeat.  There's no magic silver bullet.

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun 24 16:32:19 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 14:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
> OK, but be warned you might not like my answers :-).

Nor mine.  For that matter, Tony won't like my answers, either :-)
Maybe NOBODY will like the suggestions that I'm making off the top of my
head, . . .

Step ONE:
The first tool for you to buy is a DISPOSABLE multimeter.
You WILL buy a better one.  LATER.  When you have a clue what it is and
can do, have learned what can damage it, and have learned what aspects of
the cheap one are intolerable.  YES, there are dome aspects of that cheap
one that are HORRIBLE!    THIS one is only for learning about
multimeters.
Go to Harbor Freight Tools  or online at harborfreight.com
The list price is $9.95 , but they are often on sale in their retail
stores for $3.99, $2.99, or free with a coupon!
#98025
#92020 or
#69096

Take apart one of their $1 or free with coupon flashlights.
How many things can you measure of it?
What happens if you use the wrong scale, or get it backwards?
measure everything else within reach!

Keep YOURSELF clear of everything!  Killing yourself while measuring a
mains outlet could set you back!

WHEN you blow up the meter, go get another one, and remember what you did,
so that you won't ever do THAT again.


NOW, for the big moment, . . .
measure all of the voltages of the C64 power supply!  (a likely cause of
the problems, anyway!)   Look up what each voltage is supposed to be, and
decide whether they are close enough.

Even bigger excitement, . . .
Open the case!  Find where ground is, and where it is supposed to be.
Now find where voltage (typically 5V DC) is supposed to be.  Measure it
EVERYWHERE that it is supposed to be, including the power input pin of
every chip.   Studying the "pinout" of chips to find out which one that is
supposed to be is one of your first "research" assignments. (HINT: it will
be the same on MOST of the chips)

Do NOT touch anything in the power supply of a computer until you get to
the point of knowing what can or can't bite or kill you.  Most of us have
been thrown across a room now and then - best not to duplicate all of our
stupid moves.


STEP TWO:
Buy a cheap soldering iron, and some 60/40 rosin core lead solder. ($5)
You WILL buy a better one LATER.  In fact, you will NEVER use this POS
one on ANYTHING that you want to keep!
Take a stack of SCRAP boards, that are irreparable and useless (you said
that your friend had destroyed some, . . . )
Unsolder a large resistor from one of the boards.  Unsolder another one.
Solder them back on.  remove EVERY component from the board.  Put every
one back on.  How many did you get backwards?  How many did you destroy?
Once you've soldered and desoldered everything on a few boards, Start
planning to buy a REAL ("temperature controlled") soldering iron.  (try
flea markets, eBay, etc.)  You might find the POS one to be useful for
rewiring lamps and toasters, etc., but once you've used a REAL soldering
iron, you'll never want to touch the POS again.

STEP THREE:
Get a better screwdriver for taking apart your computers.  A cheap one
with 1/4" bits will do until you understand WHY you need a better one.

STEP FOUR:
Learn resistor color codes.  Do you know what an ohm is?  farad?
"If your car headlight draws 10 amps, how many watts is it?"
Read a few basic electronics books.  Used textbooks from the local
community college, perhaps?  Maybe even TAKE some of those classes!
"Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
Got relatives who XMAS shop?

STEP FIVE:
Buy some kits and assemble them.  Now get them to WORK.

STEP SIX:
Watch for deals on cheap (used) logic probes and even [oscillo]scopes.
Even a POS scope is fun to play with (what does the speaker signal of your
hi-fi look like?, if you put the left channel on the X axis, and right
channel on the Y axis, what do you get?) and to learn how to use one, and
to learn what you want to get when you invest in a "REAL" one.

STEP SEVEN:
Get all of the technical documents for all of the machines that you want
to work on, or are even just curious about

STEP EIGHT:
Read up on the start-up process for computers, particularly the ones that
you want to work on.  "How can you tell whether the microprocessor is
getting clock?"

STEP NINE:
Have you learned enough about your cheap tools to know what to look for,
and what YOU want, in some decent tools?

STEP TEN:
Fix the computers.


If you got this far, you've almost certainly abandoned these "silly
steps", and have taken off on more interesting projects and tangents.




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Sun Jun 24 17:44:49 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 18:44:49 -0400
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>

On Jun 24, 2012, at 5:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> STEP FOUR:
> Learn resistor color codes.  Do you know what an ohm is?  farad?
> "If your car headlight draws 10 amps, how many watts is it?"
> Read a few basic electronics books.  Used textbooks from the local
> community college, perhaps?  Maybe even TAKE some of those classes!
> "Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
> Got relatives who XMAS shop?

I agree that AoE is excellent, but I don't know about expensive;
maybe if you buy it new.  It can usually be had for under $10
used from Amazon or elsewhere.  You might get an older edition,
but it's not like ohms have changed.  The rear 1/3 or so of the
book, which deals with various projects, ICs and all never held
my interest for long enough to read it, but the front 2/3 is
absolutely essential reading for anyone new to electronics.


- Dave




From ckblackm at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 24 18:18:54 2012
From: ckblackm at yahoo.com (Christopher Blackmon)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 16:18:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <1340579934.20266.YahooMailNeo@web160501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>





________________________________
 From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 5:32 PM
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
 

STEP FOUR:
Learn resistor color codes.? 

------

Always hated this one... being color blind and all.

Christopher.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun 24 18:23:02 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 16:23:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>

> > "Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, David Riley wrote:
> I agree that AoE is excellent, but I don't know about expensive;
> maybe if you buy it new.  It can usually be had for under $10
> used from Amazon or elsewhere.

Really?
Seriously,  What am I doing wrong?
Amazon has one copy of the 1982 edition for $176
and no copies right now of the 1998 or 2011 editions.

If I send you $20 each, could you get some of those "under $10" copies?





From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sun Jun 24 20:17:34 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 21:17:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1>
	<20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <201206250117.VAA19038@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Nor mine.  For that matter, Tony won't like my answers, either :-)
> Maybe NOBODY will like the suggestions that I'm making off the top of
> my head, . . .

> Step ONE:
> The first tool for you to buy is a DISPOSABLE multimeter.
> You WILL buy a better one.  LATER.  [...]

> STEP TWO:
> Buy a cheap soldering iron, and some 60/40 rosin core lead solder.
> ($5)  You WILL buy a better one LATER.  [...]

> STEP THREE:
> STEP FOUR:
> [...]
> STEP TEN:
> Fix the computers.

Actually, I like them.  I like them all.

This deserves to be put somewhere where people contemplating learning
about electronics can find it easily.  It's perhaps the best short
summary of how to learn about electricity and electronics that I've
ever read.

> If you got this far, you've almost certainly abandoned these "silly
> steps", and have taken off on more interesting projects and tangents.

Indeed.  By the time you get to step ten, you no longer need the list.
But, as someone is supposed to have said of music, you can't safely
break rules unless you understand them thoroughly.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From brain at jbrain.com  Sun Jun 24 21:03:53 2012
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 21:03:53 -0500
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <201206250117.VAA19038@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <201206250117.VAA19038@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4FE7C709.2050209@jbrain.com>

Interesting how many of these things I did, without the tutorial

Horrid multi-meter and iron included , I wouldn't change the thing. I 
appreciate my iron all the more because I used the cheap one first.

Jim




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun 24 21:17:01 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 19:17:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <201206250117.VAA19038@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <201206250117.VAA19038@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20120624185048.L39592@shell.lmi.net>

> > STEP TEN:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Mouse wrote:
> Actually, I like them.  I like them all.
> This deserves to be put somewhere where people contemplating learning
> about electronics can find it easily.  It's perhaps the best short
> summary of how to learn about electricity and electronics that I've
> ever read.

Thank you!

It needs a lot of work, I just wrote that spontaneously as an example.
It needs to be "fleshed out" with more detail, and by people who actually
know what they are doing.
In particular, I'm very concerned about the need for safety precautions.

Not everybody will agree with the concept of "buy crappy tools, so that
you HAVE them, and then upgrade".  The wording needs to be fine-tuned to
reduce the offense to the sensibilities of those who appreciate fine
tools.   40+ years ago, when I replaced my generic 10mm socket and
generic 1/4-20 and 6mmx1.0 taps with  Snap-On, I knew that eventually I
would have a "complete" set of quality tools, but if I were to have
STARTED with a full set of quality, I couldn't have gotten started.


More needs to be added about appropriate projects to learn with,
I learned soldering with some Heathkits, and then later populating a
couple of generic blank XT motherboards with Augat sockets.  I don't
think that such blank boards are available any more.
What are some good sources for beginner projects?

Who here can write out some basic steps for how to check out a "dead"
computer?


> > If you got this far, you've almost certainly abandoned these "silly
> > steps", and have taken off on more interesting projects and tangents.
> Indeed.  By the time you get to step ten, you no longer need the list.
> But, as someone is supposed to have said of music, you can't safely
> break rules unless you understand them thoroughly.

People like us aren't going to stick with a rigid structure.  By high
school, my projects were becoming orthogonal to my teachers' lesson plans.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sun Jun 24 21:25:34 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 22:25:34 -0400
Subject: Learning with kits, was Re: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing
 and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <20120624185048.L39592@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <201206250117.VAA19038@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20120624185048.L39592@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FE7CC1E.9050703@neurotica.com>

On 06/24/2012 10:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> More needs to be added about appropriate projects to learn with,
> I learned soldering with some Heathkits, and then later populating a
> couple of generic blank XT motherboards with Augat sockets.  I don't
> think that such blank boards are available any more.
> What are some good sources for beginner projects?

  A quick google will turn up scads of them.  There are more kits
available today than ever before, and orders of magnitude more (MANY
orders of magnitude more) than in the Heathkit era.  These are very good
days for electronics as a hobby.

  Many of them are cheap enough, and otherwise appropriate, to use as a
good vehicle for learning, I think.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun 24 21:28:46 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 19:28:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <4FE7C709.2050209@jbrain.com>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <201206250117.VAA19038@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4FE7C709.2050209@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <20120624191906.M39592@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Jim Brain wrote:
> Interesting how many of these things I did, without the tutorial

I never had a tutorial.
And the classes on electronics were tube based with a casual intro to
transistors after several semesters.  I was way too impatient to go that
route

> Horrid multi-meter and iron included , I wouldn't change the thing. I
> appreciate my iron all the more because I used the cheap one first.

It SHOULDN'T be necessary to start with cheap tools, but I couldn't
afford anything else, and it sure taught me what I wanted and created
appreciation for good ones.

Back then, the cheap hand tools were AWFUL!  And even the good ones
weren't much better than Harbor Freight is now.   In the 1970s, Craftsman
got to be WAY worse than Harbor Freight is now (off-center broaching,
etc.).



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Jun 24 21:29:56 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 19:29:56 -0700
Subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
In-Reply-To: <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]>

At 4:23 PM -0700 6/24/12, Fred Cisin wrote:
>  > > "Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
>On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, David Riley wrote:
>>  I agree that AoE is excellent, but I don't know about expensive;
>>  maybe if you buy it new.  It can usually be had for under $10
>>  used from Amazon or elsewhere.
>
>Really?
>Seriously,  What am I doing wrong?
>Amazon has one copy of the 1982 edition for $176
>and no copies right now of the 1998 or 2011 editions.
>
>If I send you $20 each, could you get some of those "under $10" copies?

What's the difference between the 1998 and 2011 editions?  I have the 
'98 one.  It's one of the few books on the subject I can actually lay 
my hands on, as it's sitting next to most of my books on Valve/Tube 
Amplifiers.

If my books were well organized and shelved, I'd probably have a 
frightfully large electricity and electronics section between US Navy 
and civilian books on the subject.

Since the original topic appears to be the Commodore 64, didn't there 
used to be a book or two on the subject of repairing them?  I'm 
pretty sure I have a couple in my library (I know I have or had a 
couple for the early Macs).

Zane




-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Jun 24 21:40:24 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 19:40:24 -0700
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <20120624191906.M39592@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <201206250117.VAA19038@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4FE7C709.2050209@jbrain.com> <20120624191906.M39592@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <p06240820cc0d7f6b16b0@[192.168.1.199]>

At 7:28 PM -0700 6/24/12, Fred Cisin wrote:
>Back then, the cheap hand tools were AWFUL!  And even the good ones
>weren't much better than Harbor Freight is now.   In the 1970s, Craftsman
>got to be WAY worse than Harbor Freight is now (off-center broaching,
>etc.).

For good hand tools for working on electronics, I like the good 
German made tools I find at "Rock and Gem" shows.  The dealers expect 
the buyers to use them in working on jewelry.  Having said that, most 
of my tools aren't that nice, as the good stuff is expensive!

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Sun Jun 24 21:44:46 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 22:44:46 -0400
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>

On Jun 24, 2012, at 7:23 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

>>> "Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, David Riley wrote:
>> I agree that AoE is excellent, but I don't know about expensive;
>> maybe if you buy it new.  It can usually be had for under $10
>> used from Amazon or elsewhere.
> 
> Really?
> Seriously,  What am I doing wrong?
> Amazon has one copy of the 1982 edition for $176
> and no copies right now of the 1998 or 2011 editions.
> 
> If I send you $20 each, could you get some of those "under $10" copies?

Well, I suppose it varies by availability.  I got both my recent copies
(as recently as 5 years ago) through Powell's and a used bookstore in
Mountain View when I was visiting there.  Both were under $20, to be
sure, but there was a time it was pretty easy to find them cheaply.
Perhaps my info is out of date.  The cheapest I can find right now is
$22.55 with $4.40 shipping:

http://www.addall.com/New/compare.cgi?dispCurr=USD&isbn=9780521370950


- Dave



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Jun 24 21:52:04 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 19:52:04 -0700
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>
 <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240823cc0d82a5d846@[192.168.1.199]>

At 10:44 PM -0400 6/24/12, David Riley wrote:
>On Jun 24, 2012, at 7:23 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>>>>  "Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
>>  On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, David Riley wrote:
>>>  I agree that AoE is excellent, but I don't know about expensive;
>>>  maybe if you buy it new.  It can usually be had for under $10
>>>  used from Amazon or elsewhere.
>>
>>  Really?
>>  Seriously,  What am I doing wrong?
>>  Amazon has one copy of the 1982 edition for $176
>>  and no copies right now of the 1998 or 2011 editions.
>>
>>  If I send you $20 each, could you get some of those "under $10" copies?
>
>Well, I suppose it varies by availability.  I got both my recent copies
>(as recently as 5 years ago) through Powell's and a used bookstore in
>Mountain View when I was visiting there.  Both were under $20, to be
>sure, but there was a time it was pretty easy to find them cheaply.
>Perhaps my info is out of date.  The cheapest I can find right now is
>$22.55 with $4.40 shipping:
>
>http://www.addall.com/New/compare.cgi?dispCurr=USD&isbn=9780521370950

You might want to try www.abebooks.com, or Alibris (no, I didn't check).

Zane


-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From n0body.h0me at inbox.com  Sun Jun 24 21:55:00 2012
From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 18:55:00 -0800
Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
In-Reply-To: <l03102800cc0cf99ef05d@q840.causeuse.org>
References: <002101cd514d$65ffb180$31ff1480$@yahoo.com>
 <4fe50782.6000207@bitsavers.org> <4fdf55a4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@yahoo.com>
 <1ee050f4-8ea3-41f1-a006-42edc2a2b6c8@hack.net>
 <4fe504d4.70009@bitsavers.org>
 <29f251df-a70b-4158-939e-78f121b1200d@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <051FD90E662.0000075Dn0body.h0me@inbox.com>


I have two of these "Laser Videodisk Media", 
new unused condition.  Anyone need these?

They're in Stockton, CA.


Jeff

____________________________________________________________
GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys
Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk? and most webmails





From dgahling at hotmail.com  Sun Jun 24 21:57:55 2012
From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 22:57:55 -0400
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <p06240823cc0d82a5d846@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>,
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>,
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>,
 <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>,
 <p06240823cc0d82a5d846@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <BLU166-W23B64E94C0795CD3CBB6ECC9E10@phx.gbl>


look here for commodore books..

check under the HARDWARE section for repairing, etc

http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/books.htm

Dan.

 		 	   		  

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Jun 24 22:13:32 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 20:13:32 -0700
Subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
In-Reply-To: <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1>, <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>,
 <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <4FE774EC.13817.2655DAA@cclist.sydex.com>

On 24 Jun 2012 at 19:29, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> What's the difference between the 1998 and 2011 editions?  I have the
> '98 one.  It's one of the few books on the subject I can actually lay
> my hands on, as it's sitting next to most of my books on Valve/Tube
> Amplifiers.

Isn't it strange--Fred Terman's 1955 "Electronic and Radio 
Engineering"--all 1000+ pages of it--appears to be going for near-
junk prices ($0.26-0.50).   Go figure--a wonderful text from the guy 
who gave Bill and Dave their larnin' is scrap now.

I guess most people want to know "how" more than "why"...

--Chuck



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Jun 24 22:17:12 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 20:17:12 -0700
Subject: Commodore Books (was: BEGINNER getting started)
In-Reply-To: <BLU166-W23B64E94C0795CD3CBB6ECC9E10@phx.gbl>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>,
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>,
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>,
 <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>,
 <p06240823cc0d82a5d846@[192.168.1.199]>
 <BLU166-W23B64E94C0795CD3CBB6ECC9E10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <p06240824cc0d8692c3d4@[192.168.1.199]>

At 10:57 PM -0400 6/24/12, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
>look here for commodore books..
>
>check under the HARDWARE section for repairing, etc
>
>http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/books.htm
>
>Dan.

WOW!  Thanks for that link!  I have quite a few of those books, but 
there are also quite a few there that I've never even heard of! :-) 
I'm going to have to spend some time with a couple of them!

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Jun 24 22:20:49 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 20:20:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <p06240823cc0d82a5d846@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>
 <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>
 <p06240823cc0d82a5d846@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <20120624201909.L39592@shell.lmi.net>

> >http://www.addall.com/New/compare.cgi?dispCurr=USD&isbn=9780521370950
On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> You might want to try www.abebooks.com, or Alibris (no, I didn't check).

although an intermediary, that IS an abebooks listing





From brain at jbrain.com  Sun Jun 24 22:23:22 2012
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 22:23:22 -0500
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <20120624191906.M39592@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <201206250117.VAA19038@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4FE7C709.2050209@jbrain.com> <20120624191906.M39592@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FE7D9AA.4000706@jbrain.com>

On 6/24/2012 9:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Jim Brain wrote:
> And the classes on electronics were tube based with a casual intro to 
> transistors after several semesters. I was way too impatient to go 
> that route 
The old Radio Shack "150 in 1" kit, some flea market broken electronics 
gadgets, and the Forrest Mims little handbooks from RS were my start.
>> Horrid multi-meter and iron included , I wouldn't change the thing. I
>> appreciate my iron all the more because I used the cheap one first.
> It SHOULDN'T be necessary to start with cheap tools, but I couldn't
> afford anything else, and it sure taught me what I wanted and created
> appreciation for good ones.
I think it "should" be necessary to start with the cheap ones, or at 
least high recommended:

  * As you noted in the tutorial and here, it teaches one the
    importance/value of the good tools
  * It's a smaller investment, as you note.  It also teaches one about
    the importance of buying the correctly-priced tool for the job.  For
    example, in woodworking, I have a $19.95 Menards "Tool Shop" belt
    sander.  I know it's cheap, but I also know that it's the
    appropriate tool for my use, as I rarely if ever need a belt
    sander.  Instead of buying an expensive belt sander, which I will
    use 4 or 5 more times in my lifetime, I spent the funds on a nice
    set of Dewalt 18V cordless tools, and I use those all the time.  The
    corollary to this is my uneasiness around people who only buy the
    best tools, but don't use them often enough.  Yes, I'm glad they
    bought the good stuff, but it doesn't seem they'll ever get enough
    value out of them.  It seems such a shallow view of the investment. 
    We all know some friend who owns a huge set of Snap-On tools (or
    some other tool investment), and uses the 3/8" socket set once a year.
  * Sometimes the cheaper tool really is better.  I've used a whole host
    of desoldering "vacuum" solutions, and some of the very expensive
    professional options do indeed work well.  But, for utility,
    portability, and ease of use, the $3.99 solder sucker bulb I bought
    back in 1981 or so from Radio Shack works perfectly.  I can throw it
    in the box when I go the shows, I've learned how to use it well, and
    it and solder braid make a cool tag team of desoldering tools.  I
    know others will curse the little red bulb, but it works well for
    me, short of hauling my pro station to a show.
  * Once you no longer use the tools, you can hold onto them for
    emergencies (the old RS pencil iron sits in the RV, for the rare
    emergency), or you can let others (who don't yet appreciate the good
    tools) use them when at public events.  I swear by my WESD51 Weller,
    but not everyone appreciates a digital station and I'd hate for it
    to get broken.
  * It rationalizes the expense of the good tools.  When I started, I'd
    have argued for hours with the Weller owners that they just "wasted"
    their money on an overpriced heating element.  (Maybe not that
    extreme, but I'd probably have thought it).  But, when I decided to
    buy a Weller unit, I didn't think twice about the price.  It was
    worth it, and it is. (Cue debate on Weller versus Hakko/etc. for
    another thread)

So, I think your original thought is correct.  Buy the cheap tools, 
learn to appreciate them, and then move on, all the wiser.

Jim



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sun Jun 24 22:36:18 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 23:36:18 -0400
Subject: Commodore Books
In-Reply-To: <p06240824cc0d8692c3d4@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>,
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>,
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>,
 <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>,
 <p06240823cc0d82a5d846@[192.168.1.199]>
 <BLU166-W23B64E94C0795CD3CBB6ECC9E10@phx.gbl>
 <p06240824cc0d8692c3d4@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com>

On 06/24/2012 11:17 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>> look here for commodore books..
>>
>> check under the HARDWARE section for repairing, etc
>>
>> http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/books.htm
>>
>> Dan.
> 
> WOW!  Thanks for that link!  I have quite a few of those books, but
> there are also quite a few there that I've never even heard of! :-) I'm
> going to have to spend some time with a couple of them!

  *snicker*  So much for that darkroom, Zane. ;)

        -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Sun Jun 24 22:49:55 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 23:49:55 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@YAHOO.COM>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@YAHOO.COM>
Message-ID: <1D8ED26A-691D-4501-9851-BCDF5F604D3B@gmail.com>

On Jun 22, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:

> Hi
> 
> Along these lines, does anyone know of a "minimal" 68030 circuit schematic?
> Basically a 68030 CPU with RAM, ROM, and a UART or other simple IO?  With
> emphasis on "minimal" as in as few components as practical?
> 
> I am thinking a 68030 SBC would be neat with a timer, a couple of serial
> ports, and a Propeller for VGA, PS/2 keyboard, and microSD.  No bus
> expansion, IDE, or floppy controller to keep part count low.
> 
> 68030 is the first of the 68K line with the MMU built in so it would be Un*x
> capable assuming 16MB (SIMM) RAM.
> 
> I am not looking for Mac, Atari, Amiga, etc compatibility.
> 
> Constructive ideas appreciated.  Thanks and have a nice day!

That sounds like fun, but do you have a source of PGA '030s readily
available?  I haven't been actively looking in some time, but last
I checked you could expect to shell out upwards of $30 each, which
seems a little much for a hobbyist SBC (the sockets aren't the
cheapest things on earth, either).  '040s are somewhat easier to
find in quantity and are pretty nice performers, though I've never
looked at an '040 design closely enough to tell whether the bus
interface is that much harder.


- Dave




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Sun Jun 24 22:51:50 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 23:51:50 -0400
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <20120624201909.L39592@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>
 <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>
 <p06240823cc0d82a5d846@[192.168.1.199]> <20120624201909.L39592@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <08E95D41-CEBA-454E-BEBD-4C0F0CDB2648@gmail.com>

On Jun 24, 2012, at 11:20 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

>>> http://www.addall.com/New/compare.cgi?dispCurr=USD&isbn=9780521370950
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>> You might want to try www.abebooks.com, or Alibris (no, I didn't check).
> 
> although an intermediary, that IS an abebooks listing

For now, yes.  Addall.com is a pretty nice aggregator aimed mostly at
textbooks, and I've used it to find some pretty nice deals in the past.
In this case, the abebooks.com listing came a few bucks under the
Alibris one.


- Dave



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Sun Jun 24 23:16:33 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:33 -0300
Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
References: <002101cd514d$65ffb180$31ff1480$@yahoo.com>
 <4fe50782.6000207@bitsavers.org> <4fdf55a4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@yahoo.com>
 <1ee050f4-8ea3-41f1-a006-42edc2a2b6c8@hack.net>
 <4fe504d4.70009@bitsavers.org>
 <29f251df-a70b-4158-939e-78f121b1200d@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <051FD90E662.0000075Dn0body.h0me@inbox.com>
Message-ID: <079201cd5289$5aefe200$6700a8c0@tababook>


    RECORDABLE LASERDISCS?!?!?! WOW!!! I'd love to see one of these in
person :oD

    I love laserdiscs :) I have the Laseractive system with 
megadrive/genesis pack :oD

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "N0body H0me" <n0body.h0me at inbox.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:55 PM
Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available


>
> I have two of these "Laser Videodisk Media",
> new unused condition.  Anyone need these?
>
> They're in Stockton, CA.
>
>
> Jeff
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at
> http://www.inbox.com/smileys
> Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk? and
> most webmails
>
>
>



From dm561 at torfree.net  Sun Jun 24 23:21:04 2012
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 00:21:04 -0400
Subject: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
References: <mailman.669.1340594019.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <C75262D20173402EBCAA5AA9600FDE31@vl420mt>

Original Message:
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 05:41:11 -0400
From: "Jeffrey Brace" <ark72axow at msn.com>

> Hello everyone,

> I was hoping for some definite direction in my endless quest to fix my
> C64.

Then I would suggest that, instead of just venting your frustration that
troubleshooting and repairing computers sometimes requires knowledge,
experience and tools and isn't always easy to do via email without access to
the machine, you accurately describe your symptoms in detail and ask for
specific advice on a list like this where folks know what they're talking
about; the Vintage Computer Forum is another good place, among others.

> I'm told to go to Ray Carlsen's site and that will have everything I need.
> http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm.html. Which is very nice, but
> I'm a beginner and I don't need just a bunch of schematics and reference
> material. I need step by step method which explains which tools,
> techniques etc. that I need to do.

What you need to do is look more closely in the right place:
http://cbm8bit.com/articles/raycarlsen/raysarticles.php

Near the bottom you will find a number of articles listing symptoms and
possible causes; yours is probably in there somewhere.

m



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sun Jun 24 23:43:42 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 00:43:42 -0400
Subject: Art of Electronics
In-Reply-To: <4FE774EC.13817.2655DAA@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1>, <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>,
 <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]>
 <4FE774EC.13817.2655DAA@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FE7EC7E.1060201@neurotica.com>

On 06/24/2012 11:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Isn't it strange--Fred Terman's 1955 "Electronic and Radio 
> Engineering"--all 1000+ pages of it--appears to be going for near-
> junk prices ($0.26-0.50).   Go figure--a wonderful text from the guy 
> who gave Bill and Dave their larnin' is scrap now.
> 
> I guess most people want to know "how" more than "why"...

  Where are you seeing it that cheap?  I've been waiting for a copy to
show up on eBay at a decent price, but nothing yet.

               -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Jun 24 23:57:32 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 21:57:32 -0700
Subject: Commodore Books
In-Reply-To: <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>,
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>,
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>,
 <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>,
 <p06240823cc0d82a5d846@[192.168.1.199]>
 <BLU166-W23B64E94C0795CD3CBB6ECC9E10@phx.gbl>
 <p06240824cc0d8692c3d4@[192.168.1.199]> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <p06240825cc0d9f9ba1ab@[192.168.1.199]>

At 11:36 PM -0400 6/24/12, Dave McGuire wrote:
>On 06/24/2012 11:17 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>  > WOW!  Thanks for that link!  I have quite a few of those books, but
>>  there are also quite a few there that I've never even heard of! :-) I'm
>>  going to have to spend some time with a couple of them!
>
>   *snicker*  So much for that darkroom, Zane. ;)

Nothing says I can't work on straightening up the Commodore portion 
of my collection while making room for a Darkroom! :-)  Besides my 
Commodore 64 has to be moved from where it is currently sitting 
before I can start work on the Darkroom (so will my PDP-11/73).

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 00:22:17 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 02:22:17 -0300
Subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <07b101cd5292$837ea3b0$6700a8c0@tababook>

>>If I send you $20 each, could you get some of those "under $10" copies?

    I'd pay $30. The cheapest in Brazil is around $300 :o(


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 00:31:26 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 02:31:26 -0300
Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
References: <002101cd514d$65ffb180$31ff1480$@yahoo.com>
 <4fe50782.6000207@bitsavers.org> <4fdf55a4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@yahoo.com>
 <1ee050f4-8ea3-41f1-a006-42edc2a2b6c8@hack.net>
 <4fe504d4.70009@bitsavers.org>
 <29f251df-a70b-4158-939e-78f121b1200d@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <051FD90E662.0000075Dn0body.h0me@inbox.com>
Message-ID: <07b601cd5293$d79ad0d0$6700a8c0@tababook>


    VERY interesting! In this gallery, there is the recordable disc, the 
recorder and the processor :oO
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/joachim_s_mueller/3176789343/

    I'd be ashamed to ask for one of these disks, but it would be a very 
interesting piece, besides a 1.3gb MO disk :D

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "N0body H0me" <n0body.h0me at inbox.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:55 PM
Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available


>
> I have two of these "Laser Videodisk Media",
> new unused condition.  Anyone need these?
>
> They're in Stockton, CA.
>
>
> Jeff
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at 
> http://www.inbox.com/smileys
> Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk? and 
> most webmails
>
>
> 



From emu at e-bbes.com  Mon Jun 25 00:43:08 2012
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 07:43:08 +0200
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <1D8ED26A-691D-4501-9851-BCDF5F604D3B@gmail.com>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@YAHOO.COM>
 <1D8ED26A-691D-4501-9851-BCDF5F604D3B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120625074308.n3lc35clsoc8kc0s@webmail.opentransfer.com>

Quoting David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com>:

> On Jun 22, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Along these lines, does anyone know of a "minimal" 68030 circuit schematic?
>> Basically a 68030 CPU with RAM, ROM, and a UART or other simple IO?  With
>> emphasis on "minimal" as in as few components as practical?

Just go for a classical 68000/68230/68681. And there are really enough  
upgrade boards to make 68020/68030/68040/etc. out of it. Or, if enough  
people are interested in a  68000 design, make a 68030/68040 later.


From jws at jwsss.com  Mon Jun 25 00:49:57 2012
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 22:49:57 -0700
Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
In-Reply-To: <051FD90E662.0000075Dn0body.h0me@inbox.com>
References: <002101cd514d$65ffb180$31ff1480$@yahoo.com>
 <4fe50782.6000207@bitsavers.org> <4fdf55a4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@yahoo.com>
 <1ee050f4-8ea3-41f1-a006-42edc2a2b6c8@hack.net>
 <4fe504d4.70009@bitsavers.org>
 <29f251df-a70b-4158-939e-78f121b1200d@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <051FD90E662.0000075Dn0body.h0me@inbox.com>
Message-ID: <4FE7FC05.2070103@jwsss.com>

I saw the recorders at one time.  If these are the ones slightly smaller 
than the usual 12" ones.

the people who had it had never seen blank media.

On 6/24/2012 7:55 PM, N0body H0me wrote:
> I have two of these "Laser Videodisk Media",
> new unused condition.  Anyone need these?




From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Jun 25 02:45:32 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 00:45:32 -0700
Subject: Art of Electronics
In-Reply-To: <4FE7EC7E.1060201@neurotica.com>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1>,
 <4FE774EC.13817.2655DAA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FE7EC7E.1060201@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4FE7B4AC.6916.35E634D@cclist.sydex.com>

On 25 Jun 2012 at 0:43, Dave McGuire wrote:

>   Where are you seeing it that cheap?  I've been waiting for a copy to
> show up on eBay at a decent price, but nothing yet.

The cheap price was local.

But here's one for $6:

http://www.oldcomputerbooks.com/pages/books/B452/frederick-emmons-
terman/electronic-and-radio-engineering-1955

And it's also on eBay.  Make an offer:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Electronic-and-Radio-Engineering-4th-Ed-by-
Frederick-Emmons-Terman/261007279597

Amazon shows the hardcover starting at $24.

--Chuck






From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Mon Jun 25 06:35:48 2012
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 04:35:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Disk II cases
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206250434060.10848@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>


If you have any broken Apple Disk IIs lying around, don't trash them. 
They appear to be excellent hosts for an all-in-one Discferret/Kryoflux 
setup with two drives.  More to come later.

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 06:57:05 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 07:57:05 -0400
Subject: Disk II cases
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206250434060.10848@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206250434060.10848@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <9363024D-E75A-4B95-B696-2F609A92FAA5@gmail.com>

On Jun 25, 2012, at 7:35 AM, David Griffith wrote:

> 
> If you have any broken Apple Disk IIs lying around, don't trash them.

As if that needed to be said to this list. :-)


- Dave



From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Jun 25 08:00:16 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Commodore Books
In-Reply-To: <p06240825cc0d9f9ba1ab@[192.168.1.199]> from "Zane H. Healy" at
 "Jun 24, 12 09:57:32 pm"
Message-ID: <201206251300.q5PD0Gj613762746@floodgap.com>

> Nothing says I can't work on straightening up the Commodore portion 
> of my collection while making room for a Darkroom! :-)  Besides my 
> Commodore 64 has to be moved from where it is currently sitting 
> before I can start work on the Darkroom (so will my PDP-11/73).

You should put your Commodore 64 on your desk, as my C128 is. :)

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- I may be underpaid, but I underwork just to make it even. ------------------


From ian_primus at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 25 08:14:37 2012
From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:14:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Disk II cases
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206250434060.10848@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <1340630077.11770.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 6/25/12, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:

> If you have any broken Apple Disk IIs lying around, don't
> trash them. They appear to be excellent hosts for an
> all-in-one Discferret/Kryoflux setup with two drives.?
> More to come later.

One problem with stuffing standard drives into a Disk II case (yes, I've done it...) is that they're *slightly* not deep enough for some 5 1/4" floppy drives to fit and still allow the power connector to mate. That, and there isn't enough room in a Disk II case to house a power supply.

A SCSI tape drive enclosure, like from an external DLT drive, is deeper, has a power supply, and room for two drives.

But, then again, the Disk II enclosures are more "vintagey". :)

-Ian



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Jun 25 08:55:55 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 06:55:55 -0700
Subject: Commodore Books
In-Reply-To: <201206251300.q5PD0Gj613762746@floodgap.com>
References: <201206251300.q5PD0Gj613762746@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <p06240828cc0e1ddaa299@[192.168.1.199]>

At 6:00 AM -0700 6/25/12, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>  > Nothing says I can't work on straightening up the Commodore portion
>>  of my collection while making room for a Darkroom! :-)  Besides my
>>  Commodore 64 has to be moved from where it is currently sitting
>>  before I can start work on the Darkroom (so will my PDP-11/73).
>
>You should put your Commodore 64 on your desk, as my C128 is. :)

I'd love to, the problem is that there simply isn't room in my home 
office for a Commodore 64 or a VT420 (for the PDP-11).

Zane


-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 09:14:41 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 10:14:41 -0400
Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
In-Reply-To: <4FE7FC05.2070103@jwsss.com>
References: <002101cd514d$65ffb180$31ff1480$@yahoo.com>
 <4fe50782.6000207@bitsavers.org> <4fdf55a4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@yahoo.com>
 <1ee050f4-8ea3-41f1-a006-42edc2a2b6c8@hack.net>
 <4fe504d4.70009@bitsavers.org>
 <29f251df-a70b-4158-939e-78f121b1200d@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <051FD90E662.0000075Dn0body.h0me@inbox.com>
 <4FE7FC05.2070103@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimn+UGKnCxRrqEQetdYtsigRgX_HSnrJoL5b2sma85iPDw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 1:49 AM, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> I saw the recorders at one time. ?If these are the ones slightly smaller
> than the usual 12" ones.
>
> the people who had it had never seen blank media.

I have a Panasonic TQ-2028F monochrome videodisc recorder.  It came
with a partially-used disc.  The footage that's on it is some sort of
microscope "movie".  It's WORM media, but I can write to the remaining
8-10 blank minutes.

I see numerous recorder units on eBay "for parts", etc.  I did find a
hit or two about media for it, but I suspect the quantities available
would be low and the prices high.

-ethan



From rickb at bensene.com  Mon Jun 25 09:35:34 2012
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 07:35:34 -0700
Subject: Tektronix 4052 Firmware
Message-ID: <002f01cd52df$c5980e56$050aa8c0@bensene.com>


Thanks, Glen,

Anyone know of a cheap gizmo that will program the Motorola MCM68766?
My programmer does not support it.



-----Original Message-----
From: Glen Slick [glen.slick at gmail.com]
Received: Saturday, 23 Jun 2012, 8:46pm
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts [cctalk at classiccmp.org]
Subject: Re: Tektronix 4052 Firmware


Is the MCM68766 a compatible replacement EPROM?

Those are available for $8 each at www.unicornelectronics.com

From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 09:46:17 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 16:46:17 +0200
Subject: Art of Electronics
In-Reply-To: <4FE7B4AC.6916.35E634D@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1>
 <4FE774EC.13817.2655DAA@cclist.sydex.com> <4FE7EC7E.1060201@neurotica.com>
 <4FE7B4AC.6916.35E634D@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <51BEFF3D-F87B-4E5A-B366-7B2A1D404291@gmail.com>

> But here's one for $6:
> 
> http://www.oldcomputerbooks.com/pages/books/B452/frederick-emmons-
> terman/electronic-and-radio-engineering-1955
> 
Aaaand it's already gone... ;)


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 11:02:12 2012
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:02:12 -0500
Subject: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <SNT104-DS122C1BE804599C50304726B9E20@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT104-DS122C1BE804599C50304726B9E20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4FE88B84.5010203@gmail.com>

On 06/24/2012 04:41 AM, Jeffrey Brace wrote:
> I started with my original C64 which I bought in 1987. I had left it in
> a garage for two years and then tried to use it and it didn't work.

In what way does it not work?

> First I was told that I should clean my C64 with regular dish detergent
> and a hair dryer. I was told that this would solve many problems. Sounds
> unsafe, but I guess I will try it.

It can cause many problems too! What's wrong with the machine that you've 
been told might be solved by cleaning it?

> Then I was told that I should buy
> another C64 since it isn't worth repairing them, since they are so
> plentifully available and cheap.

Not around here they aren't. It depends where you live...

> Then I need to replace chips that are bad, so I need to know how to
> solder and de-solder. Which kind of device to get ? There are different
> wattages and if you do it wrong then you burn up your boards (as a
> friend of mine did with more soldering experience did). Do I get a
> combination desolder sucker ? Or a little squeeze one ? Or a push and
> suck stick ? Do I get a soldering station ? A braider ?

Much of that is down to experience and personal preference, I'm afraid. 
I've never got on well with the desolder braid. Solder suckers (the type 
you refer to as 'push and suck stick') work well in my opinion, as long as 
it's a good quality one.

For irons I've got a smaller one (either 12W or 15W, can't remember) which 
I use with fine tips and a 25W one for larger jobs (which is a little 
under-powered for some tasks)

cheers

Jules


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Jun 25 11:49:42 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 09:49:42 -0700
Subject: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <4FE88B84.5010203@gmail.com>
References: <SNT104-DS122C1BE804599C50304726B9E20@phx.gbl>,
 <4FE88B84.5010203@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE83436.27458.4844EA@cclist.sydex.com>

On 25 Jun 2012 at 11:02, Jules Richardson wrote:

> On 06/24/2012 04:41 AM, Jeffrey Brace wrote:
> > I started with my original C64 which I bought in 1987. I had left it
> > in a garage for two years and then tried to use it and it didn't
> > work.
> 
> In what way does it not work?

One of the more common failures of a C64 is the power supply; that's 
where I'd start.

The innards of those things, however, are potted--I don't know of 
anyone who's been able to get the components out of the potting 
compound.

There are workarounds that involve constructing replacements.  Here's 
a fairly elegant one that preserves the look:

http://wejp.k.vu/broken_stuff/c64_power_supply_repair

It might also be a good "first project".

--Chuck



From legalize at xmission.com  Mon Jun 25 12:13:09 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:13:09 -0600
Subject: Manx 2.0 beta
Message-ID: <E1SjCqc-0002dU-1M@shell.xmission.com>

Things have progressed nicely on Manx and I now have a reasonable UI
for adding new online documents to the system.  I've also fixed some
bugs and added a few other minor features.

I'm inviting the cctalk community to beta test the changes and report
any issues using the tracker on the codeplex project page:

<http://manx.codeplex.com/WorkItem/Create>

You will need an account on codeplex to create issues.  Creating an
account is free and you will not receive any spam.

The beta is hooked up to a separate database, so you can't break
anything in the current system.

Manx 2.0 beta:
<http://manx.classiccmp.org/test>

Login with these credentials:

email: demo at example.com
password: demonstratus

Try the URL Wizard to add new documents for existing sites, new sites,
or from mirrors known to manx of sites already known to manx.

Changes from Manx 1.0:

All users:
- RSS feed published of 200 most recently added documents
- Fixed problem with page title on details page
- Details page for a publication links company name to search of docs
  for that company.
- About page updated
- Help page updated
- UTF-8 now handled properly throughout

Logged-in users:
- See table of known mirror data
- See table of known site data
- URL Wizard for adding documents
  From a URL, try to figure out as much as possible, such as:
  * part number
  * document title
  * document publication date
  * company
  * site owning document
  * document format (PDF, etc.)

  All fields can be edited if the wizard makes a poor guess from the
  URL.

  The wizard is able to guess most information if the URL is on bitsavers.

  The wizard uses AJAX to obtain information from the database, so you
  will need a JavaScript enabled web browser for the wizard to work
  properly.

  Some error checking has been done, but the wizard could probably use
  additional checks and preventions against duplicate or badly formed
  data.

  There are no instructions on the Wizard page, but generally the idea
  is that you start by pasting in the URL and tab from field to field
  adjusting all the data as needed.

  If any field contains invalid data, it's label will be changed to
  red when you attempt to advance the wizard by clicking the button.

  Please create issues in the tracker for anything you find!
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Jun 25 13:21:36 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:21:36 -0400
Subject: Tektronix 4052 Firmware
In-Reply-To: <002f01cd52df$c5980e56$050aa8c0@bensene.com>
References: <002f01cd52df$c5980e56$050aa8c0@bensene.com>
Message-ID: <4FE8AC30.6020803@neurotica.com>

On 06/25/2012 10:35 AM, Rick Bensene wrote:
> Anyone know of a cheap gizmo that will program the Motorola MCM68766?
> My programmer does not support it.

  Not a "cheap gizmo", but my Data I/O UniSite can program MCM68766s; I
can burn them for you if you get into a bind.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun 25 13:39:11 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:39:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
In-Reply-To: <07b101cd5292$837ea3b0$6700a8c0@tababook>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>
 <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]>
 <07b101cd5292$837ea3b0$6700a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <20120625113520.G65869@shell.lmi.net>

> >>If I send you $20 each, could you get some of those "under $10" copies?
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>     I'd pay $30. The cheapest in Brazil is around $300 :o(

How much does Abebooks charge to ship to Brazil?


Interesting how there can be a sequence of aggregators linked to
aggregators, linked to aggregators.  The actual book listed in addall, is
sold by Abebooks, on behalf of VBK, yet seems to work seamlessly (IFF it
actually arrives)


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Jun 25 13:46:47 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:46:47 -0400
Subject: Art of Electronics
In-Reply-To: <20120625113520.G65869@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]>
 <07b101cd5292$837ea3b0$6700a8c0@tababook>
 <20120625113520.G65869@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FE8B217.5050906@neurotica.com>

On 06/25/2012 02:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>>> If I send you $20 each, could you get some of those "under $10" copies?
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>>     I'd pay $30. The cheapest in Brazil is around $300 :o(
> 
> How much does Abebooks charge to ship to Brazil?

  This is a good point.  Alexandre, I have a bunch of stuff here that's
yours, and I should be able to ship it down to you when you're ready.
Feel free to add a book or two to that pile.  (if you do so, however,
remember that I've moved, so I don't believe you have my current address)

          -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun 25 14:18:03 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 12:18:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Disk II cases
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206250434060.10848@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206250434060.10848@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <20120625121618.G65869@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, David Griffith wrote:
> If you have any broken Apple Disk IIs lying around, don't trash them.
> They appear to be excellent hosts for an all-in-one Discferret/Kryoflux
> setup with two drives.  More to come later.

There are MANY R at RE and unique external drive enclosures that could be
gutted to be re-used!


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 14:32:03 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 15:32:03 -0400
Subject: Disk II cases
In-Reply-To: <20120625121618.G65869@shell.lmi.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206250434060.10848@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <20120625121618.G65869@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkQTcbsOOVYFEMhTX2D0m_zc8jCC+LLVyMLENk_Qe7juQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, David Griffith wrote:
>> If you have any broken Apple Disk IIs lying around, don't trash them.
>> They appear to be excellent hosts for an all-in-one Discferret/Kryoflux
>> setup with two drives. ?More to come later.
>
> There are MANY R at RE and unique external drive enclosures that could be
> gutted to be re-used!

I recycled an external beige 400K Mac floppy enclosure into a PSU
housing (it was already empty) to power my SBC6120 that was mounted in
an Amiga external 3.5" floppy enclosure (also already empty).

If I ran across a bare Mac floppy (w/aluminum brackets) or a
cosmetically damaged external drive, I'd certainly be likely to
"restore" it, but sometimes, things get scrapped and the enclosure is
what gets saved.

-ethan



From lists at loomcom.com  Mon Jun 25 14:50:28 2012
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 15:50:28 -0400
Subject: Emulex QD21 firmware
Message-ID: <20120625195028.GA6639@mail.loomcom.com>


I've got an Emulex QD21 (Qbus ESDI controller) with a Rev. D firmware on
it. The later revisions of this card (Rev. E and later) shipped with a
much nicer firmware that included autoconfiguration, and a menu-driven
formatter and diagnostics package.

Does anyone happen to have a ROM image for Rev. E or later? I'd love
to upgrade my board.

-Seth


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Jun 25 14:57:22 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 15:57:22 -0400
Subject: Emulex QD21 firmware
In-Reply-To: <20120625195028.GA6639@mail.loomcom.com>
References: <20120625195028.GA6639@mail.loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <4FE8C2A2.9030006@neurotica.com>

On 06/25/2012 03:50 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
> I've got an Emulex QD21 (Qbus ESDI controller) with a Rev. D firmware on
> it. The later revisions of this card (Rev. E and later) shipped with a
> much nicer firmware that included autoconfiguration, and a menu-driven
> formatter and diagnostics package.
> 
> Does anyone happen to have a ROM image for Rev. E or later? I'd love
> to upgrade my board.

  I have a few QD21s here.  If you don't find it before I have a chance
to plug them into a machine and see what they've got, I'll see if I have
something newer than Rev D.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 15:11:51 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 13:11:51 -0700
Subject: Emulex QD21 firmware
In-Reply-To: <20120625195028.GA6639@mail.loomcom.com>
References: <20120625195028.GA6639@mail.loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJGoFkkoFx4AVRG9XBPL79eT4QhexJ822QsLiitY4JKfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Seth Morabito <lists at loomcom.com> wrote:
>
> I've got an Emulex QD21 (Qbus ESDI controller) with a Rev. D firmware on
> it. The later revisions of this card (Rev. E and later) shipped with a
> much nicer firmware that included autoconfiguration, and a menu-driven
> formatter and diagnostics package.
>
> Does anyone happen to have a ROM image for Rev. E or later? I'd love
> to upgrade my board.
>
> -Seth

I have a G or maybe K firmware for my QD21.  I'll take a look tonight.

-Glen


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 15:16:52 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 13:16:52 -0700
Subject: Emulex QD21 firmware
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJGoFkkoFx4AVRG9XBPL79eT4QhexJ822QsLiitY4JKfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120625195028.GA6639@mail.loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwJGoFkkoFx4AVRG9XBPL79eT4QhexJ822QsLiitY4JKfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLN8E5MyiMjVXxcunhvuoeVcQaO_KLVGJv616pQN8Frmg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Seth Morabito <lists at loomcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> I've got an Emulex QD21 (Qbus ESDI controller) with a Rev. D firmware on
>> it. The later revisions of this card (Rev. E and later) shipped with a
>> much nicer firmware that included autoconfiguration, and a menu-driven
>> formatter and diagnostics package.
>>
>> Does anyone happen to have a ROM image for Rev. E or later? I'd love
>> to upgrade my board.
>>
>> -Seth
>
> I have a G or maybe K firmware for my QD21. ?I'll take a look tonight.

Replying to my own reply, I found an old email where I mentioned that
I had Rev J firmware for the QD21.  I'll verify that and post the
EPROM images I have later tonight.

-Glen



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 25 13:38:30 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 19:38:30 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II)
In-Reply-To: <4FE77745.8080906@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Jun 24,
 12 01:23:33 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjEBI-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> > Have you treid looking for a service manual for the camera on the web?
> > Some Niko ncamera man aulas are there. THe 'electronic' one I looked at
> > (F3) didn't include full schematcs, but it did have a wiring diagram and
> > soem theory of operation. It's a possible source of information.
> The motorized F body is the F-36.  The body can be converted by drilling 
> holes in the bottom plate of the camera.  I don't have one that has a 

I've got a lot of conflicting information on this.. The site you mention 
(which I had alread come across) mentions extra linkages. Yo usay it's 
jsut holes. And I've found a 1972 photographic catalogue which lists the 
F36 motordrive but doens't mention any modifications needed to the Nikon 
F body. My Nikon F is a pretty late one and it has no holes or linkages 
in the bottom cover of the shutter.

This cover is trivial to remove (4 screws, nothing gets in the way or 
flies out) so it's possible a modified oen came wit hthe F36 for the user 
to fit. 

[...]

> I have several of the F bodies, and they show up regularly on ePay. I 
> don't know whether the motor on the F has any

I only have one, it's in need of a bit of TLC -- the slow speed 
escapement is running slow. The problem is that to get to that you have 
to remove the front plate and the mirror box. When I stock up on circuit 
tuits, I will have a go.

> 
> A nice page for the F-36 is shown below.
> 
> http://www.mir.com.my/michaeliu/cameras/nikonf/fmotors/f36/index.htm
> 
> Does look like the F approach would be in the 200 dollar range minimum 
> maybe 400 if you really don't want to hunt for a long time (assuming you 
> have the body).

Sinvce the F36 is rare, I think a more sensible thing would be to buy an 
F2 and its motor drive (which seems ot be a lot more common, the F2 is 
not any more expensive than an F really).

Not that any of this helps the OP...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 25 14:14:20 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:14:20 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 24,
 12 02:32:19 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjEjz-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> 
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
> > OK, but be warned you might not like my answers :-).
> 
> Nor mine.  For that matter, Tony won't like my answers, either :-)

Since you posted them publically, I think it is reasonable for me to 
reply to them, whether yyou like it or not :-). More seriously, different 
people ahve differnet views on this and only the OP can decide what will 
work _for him_. Sevearl of us here have been doing repairs for more years 
than we care to rememebr, and we all have different views on what is 
important or not (for example, some people here use a 'socpe all the 
time, I only use one rarely, prefering other instruments. It's a personal 
thing, if it works for you, then do it that way).

> Maybe NOBODY will like the suggestions that I'm making off the top of my
> head, . . .
> 
> Step ONE:
> The first tool for you to buy is a DISPOSABLE multimeter.

Hmm... I am not convicned...

If you asre not careful, buying poor-quality tools and test gear will 
cause problems. You might get disheartened by this and decide you will 
neve be able to do troubleshooting/repair. It can be a lot better to have 
a few good-wualtiy units than a lot of poor ones.

As an aside, I know of several people who were put off photography 
becuase thye were given a cheap camera (always a Kodak...) as a child. 
The results were poor, they didn't see the point in paying for film and 
processing. Later one, when they got a better camera -- not necessarily 
an expensive one -- they found how much fun it could be. 

Getting back to multimetets. An experienced person might know how a cheap 
meter is goign to misbehave and will be able interpret the readings. A 
beginner cannot. You will get readings that seem to make no sense, and 
will spend consdierable time looking for faults that aren't really there. 
And son't get me started on the confusion a cheap sotrage 'scope can cause...


> You WILL buy a better one.  LATER.  When you have a clue what it is and
> can do, have learned what can damage it, and have learned what aspects of

A good meater is alomst impossible to damage....

> the cheap one are intolerable.  YES, there are dome aspects of that cheap
> one that are HORRIBLE!    THIS one is only for learning about
> multimeters.
> Go to Harbor Freight Tools  or online at harborfreight.com
> The list price is $9.95 , but they are often on sale in their retail
> stores for $3.99, $2.99, or free with a coupon!
> #98025
> #92020 or
> #69096
> 
> Take apart one of their $1 or free with coupon flashlights.
> How many things can you measure of it?
> What happens if you use the wrong scale, or get it backwards?
> measure everything else within reach!
> 
> Keep YOURSELF clear of everything!  Killing yourself while measuring a
> mains outlet could set you back!

And that is soemthing else to be careful about. A friend of mine was 
nearely killed by a cheap mete. He measured the voltage of a maisn 
socket, it showed 240V or so, so the meter was working/ He flipped the 
breaker for what he thought was the right circuit, then measured the 
voltage again. 0 or so. So he thought he had isoalted the circuit and 
started to remove the socket. Alas the meter had taken that momemnt to 
fail (range swithc trouble I think) and he's flipped the wrong breaker. 
Result : He got the mains across him. Second result, he bought a good meter.

> 
> WHEN you blow up the meter, go get another one, and remember what you did,
> so that you won't ever do THAT again.
> 
> 
> NOW, for the big moment, . . .
> measure all of the voltages of the C64 power supply!  (a likely cause of
> the problems, anyway!)   Look up what each voltage is supposed to be, and
> decide whether they are close enough.

You are skipping over something vert important here. Multimeters, and 
voltmeters in genral, have 2 leads. The poiunt is that it makes no real 
sense ot say 'the votlage here is 5V'. What you mean is 'the voltage here 
is 5V _with respect to this point which I am calling ground'. Knowing 
what point to take as the common 'ground' is often not obvious when you 
are startign out.

IIRC The C64 power supply has 2 outputs. One is5V DC, regualted inside 
the PSU. The other is 9V AC, not regualted. The 2 are not connecvted to 
each other inside the supply (The 9V AC supply is used ot produce other 
voaltages inside the C64, and those _are_ then referenced to the came 
ground as the 5V supply. But not with the PSU on its own, not connected 
to the C64). So you need to measure the DC votlage between the pins 
called '5V' and 'ground' and the AC voltage betwee nthe 2 pins alled '9V AC'
[...]

> STEP TWO:
> Buy a cheap soldering iron, and some 60/40 rosin core lead solder. ($5)
> You WILL buy a better one LATER.  In fact, you will NEVER use this POS
> one on ANYTHING that you want to keep!
> Take a stack of SCRAP boards, that are irreparable and useless (you said
> that your friend had destroyed some, . . . )
> Unsolder a large resistor from one of the boards.  Unsolder another one.
> Solder them back on.  remove EVERY component from the board.  Put every

Hmmm... Even if I say so myself, I consider that I am reasonably good and 
PCB rework. And I have great difficulties using a cheap soldering iron.

A freind at HPCC wented to learn some basic electroncis. I had some 
'spare' simple kits to solder up, I suggested he bought some tools and 
had a go. Als he didn't want to pay for a sodlering station... He had 
great ddifficult soldering the new components ot a new, simple, PCB. In 
the end I asked him to bring everything to a meeting so I could see what 
he was doing wrong. Nothing obvioiusm so I had a go. I had problems too. 
So I pulled my Weller TCP out of my bag and tried that. Dead easy. I let 
him try it. He had no problems pouplating the complete PCB.

Cheap tools really can make things difficult, I know that good tools are 
expesnive, and that if you are starting out you ight not want to lay out 
a lot of money on tools you might not want. But eqally, you have enough 
real problems when you are learning without creating more due to 
inadequate tools.

> one back on.  How many did you get backwards?  How many did you destroy?
> Once you've soldered and desoldered everything on a few boards, Start
> planning to buy a REAL ("temperature controlled") soldering iron.  (try
> flea markets, eBay, etc.)  You might find the POS one to be useful for
> rewiring lamps and toasters, etc., but once you've used a REAL soldering

I am not convinced they are even useful for that. You find high melting 
point sodler in such places (for obvious reaosns)

> iron, you'll never want to touch the POS again.
> 
> STEP THREE:
> Get a better screwdriver for taking apart your computers.  A cheap one
> with 1/4" bits will do until you understand WHY you need a better one.

My list of simple hand tools for ocmputer repair is quite long, and to be 
fair you problaby don't need all of them. But I find I need screwdrives 
from 1mm to about 8mm, Phillips and Pozidriv ones too. And Allen hex 
tools, torx drivers, nutdrivers, etc. In some cases it does depend on 
what you are sorkign on. If you stick to C64s, you will not need Bristol 
Spline tools. If yoyu work on Flexowriters, or even IBM 5155s, you do.

Get some decent pliers and cutters. Over here expect to pay \poudns 30.00 
for each (!). You will use them a lot .

Another case where cehap tools make life dififuclt are tweezers. Cheap 
tweezers are made from spring steel. Expensive ones are stainless steelm 
and not magnetic. You might wonder if it's worth paying for the expensive 
ones (about 10 times the price of cheap ones). Well, if tyuo've ever 
tried to put a small screw or simiar into a mechanism and hand other 
parts jump out of plate ot the end of the tweezers, you'll know why...

> 
> STEP FOUR:
> Learn resistor color codes.  Do you know what an ohm is?  farad?
> "If your car headlight draws 10 amps, how many watts is it?"
> Read a few basic electronics books.  Used textbooks from the local
> community college, perhaps?  Maybe even TAKE some of those classes!
> "Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
> Got relatives who XMAS shop?
> 
> STEP FIVE:
> Buy some kits and assemble them.  Now get them to WORK.

Kits are great at teaching you to solder, to identify compoennts and to 
put things together. They are less good at teaching electronics. I was 
amazed (when i had to sort out a so-claled 'educational electronic kit' 
sold over here that it didn't even include a schematic, or a block 
diagram or the theory of oepration. Of course _I traced out the scehamtic 
in a few minutes, but...)

SInce youy need ot learn to solder and handle the tools kits are 
certianly sueful. But it's worth realsing they don't teach you everything.

[..]

> STEP SEVEN:
> Get all of the technical documents for all of the machines that you want
> to work on, or are even just curious about

Easier said than done in soem cases :-). Although there are plenty of 
technical manuals and scheamtic for the C64.

[...]

> If you got this far, you've almost certainly abandoned these "silly
> steps", and have taken off on more interesting projects and tangents.

I think one thing that Fred and I agree on (fro reading this ) is that 
tyhere is no short-cut to being able to repair computers. You _do_ need 
to learn to use tools,. you do need ot learn how things should work, you 
do need to learn basic (and more) electronics.

Sure there are 'stock fault lists'. Thigns that tell you that if it 
starts up with this sort of image on the monitor then you need ot change 
that chip. 99% of the tiem they're rignt./ 1% of the time they are not. 
And at that point, if all you have is the stock fault lsit, you are stuck.

If you are runnign a repair shop and have hundreds othe same model coming 
in, then such lists are valuable. You cna send 99% of them back out the 
door quickiy, leaving 1% hat reauires an experienced person to look at. 
But if you are doing it for yourself, if you want ot finx that machine no 
matter what, then you have ot learn the 'real' methods of fault 
diagnosis. 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 25 14:16:33 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:16:33 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 24,
 12 04:23:02 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjEm6-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

> Really?
> Seriously,  What am I doing wrong?
> Amazon has one copy of the 1982 edition for $176
> and no copies right now of the 1998 or 2011 editions.

I've not seen the 2011 edition, is it worth getting? Is there a new 
version of the lab manual? 

Yes, it's an expensive book if bought new. but it's not wone you 'grow 
out of' quickly. I refer to it quite often...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 25 14:20:58 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:20:58 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <201206250117.VAA19038@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Jun 24, 12 09:17:34 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjEqM-000J4cC@p850ug1>

> 
> > Nor mine.  For that matter, Tony won't like my answers, either :-)
> > Maybe NOBODY will like the suggestions that I'm making off the top of
> > my head, . . .
> 
> > Step ONE:
> > The first tool for you to buy is a DISPOSABLE multimeter.
> > You WILL buy a better one.  LATER.  [...]
> 
> > STEP TWO:
> > Buy a cheap soldering iron, and some 60/40 rosin core lead solder.
> > ($5)  You WILL buy a better one LATER.  [...]
> 
> > STEP THREE:
> > STEP FOUR:
> > [...]
> > STEP TEN:
> > Fix the computers.
> 
> Actually, I like them.  I like them all.

As I said in the introduction to my (long) reply to Fred's message : 
Different people will have diffenernt views on this. None are any more 
right than the others. I feel it is best to read what all experienced 
people say and then see what works for you.

> Indeed.  By the time you get to step ten, you no longer need the list.
> But, as someone is supposed to have said of music, you can't safely
> break rules unless you understand them thoroughly.

It reminds me of soemthing I have said about 'The Art of Electronics'. I 
don;t agree with everything in that book. But the explanaitoins are clear 
and the make you think. By the time you realise that, no, you'd do it 
differnetly, you've learnt a lot of electronics. And surely that's the point.

A good book, IMHO is not one that you agree with. It's noe that makes you 
think why you might disagree with the authro. Those thoguths areh the 
educational bit.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 25 14:36:02 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:36:02 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <20120624185048.L39592@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 24,
 12 07:17:01 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjF4y-000J4dC@p850ug1>

> Not everybody will agree with the concept of "buy crappy tools, so that

My ears are burning :-)

> you HAVE them, and then upgrade".  The wording needs to be fine-tuned to
> reduce the offense to the sensibilities of those who appreciate fine
> tools.   40+ years ago, when I replaced my generic 10mm socket and
> generic 1/4-20 and 6mmx1.0 taps with  Snap-On, I knew that eventually I
> would have a "complete" set of quality tools, but if I were to have
> STARTED with a full set of quality, I couldn't have gotten started.

I appreicate the problem. The sort of socket set I would _like_ to buy, 
if I was buying one now, is over 10 times the price of a 'crappy' one. 

However, there is a case to be made, I think, for buying the few tools 
you need -- and getting high quality ones -- rather than buying a large 
set of cheap tools. 

FOr example, you mentioned taps. I tend to buy only the sizes I need, anf 
get good ones, rathen than buyign one of the cheap imported srts with 
plenty of sizes I don;'t need and made from 'steel' that appears to 
actualyl be cheese...

> 
> 
> More needs to be added about appropriate projects to learn with,
> I learned soldering with some Heathkits, and then later populating a
> couple of generic blank XT motherboards with Augat sockets.  I don't
> think that such blank boards are available any more.
> What are some good sources for beginner projects?

There are sill pletny of kits out there -- Velleman, for exmaple. But 
they are gernally not as 'complete' as Heathkits. You find that thigns 
like th box, mountign hardware, connectors, etc are not included. Often 
you get the PCB and the components to put on it, and nothing more. 

They are also less educational as regards electroncis than older kits. 
Many now incldue a programemd microcontroller and you do nto get the 
source code. SO you cna't really understand what it's doing. Unlike a 
circuit made from discrete transistors (or valves) where you can 
understand what is going on. 

as I said, assembly kits is a good way to learn to use the tools, but 
it's not all you need to be able to do. 

> 
> Who here can write out some basic steps for how to check out a "dead"
> computer?

It depends -- a lot -- on the computer. I've writen a set of articles for 
HPCC (and the only way to get them at the moment is to join HPCC, sorry!) 
on repairign the HP9800 calculators. I do include an intital checkout 
procedurte, but must of it would not apply to other machines.

That said, there are some basic tests that youy do on just aobut any 
microcomptuer : 

1) Check the power supplies. Cheak the voltages nad check them for 
ripply. Power supply problems are suprisingly common, and no computer 
works porperly if it's not powered properly

2) Check the processor clock signal. 

3) Check the reset signal. Make sure the processor isn't being held reset 
(or worse that it's not being reset at mains frequency due to a problem 
with the power-OK circuitry, yes, that's csuprising common too). 

3) Check if the processor is doing anything. Is it attempting to read 
memeory, for ecample

4) Cehck all data and adreess lines for activity. ALl data lines should 
be toggling,. the low-order address ones shoudl be too. It's posible it's 
(correctly) running a small routine and thus the high order address lines 
might be steady

5) Check to see if it is acessing the firmware ROM

6) If you have a logic analyser, grab the data and address buses and see 
what it is acutally trying to execute. Does it make sense? Do jumps cause 
the address to change in the right way? 

> People like us aren't going to stick with a rigid structure.  By high
> school, my projects were becoming orthogonal to my teachers' lesson plans.

Yo uand I have a lot in common...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 25 14:39:13 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:39:13 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <20120624191906.M39592@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 24,
 12 07:28:46 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjF83-000J4eC@p850ug1>

> 
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Jim Brain wrote:
> > Interesting how many of these things I did, without the tutorial
> 
> I never had a tutorial.

I have never had a single formal lesson on electronics. Well, OK, they 
tried to teach one at school, but it decented int o farce when I pointed 
out how much of what was eign taught was nonsnese....

> And the classes on electronics were tube based with a casual intro to
> transistors after several semesters.  I was way too impatient to go that
> route

I learnt trnasisotrs first, then vlave,s then ICs. That's probably 
abnormal...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 25 14:44:46 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:44:46 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
In-Reply-To: <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]> from "Zane H. Healy" at
 Jun 24, 12 07:29:56 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjFDQ-000J4fC@p850ug1>

> If my books were well organized and shelved, I'd probably have a 
> frightfully large electricity and electronics section between US Navy 
> and civilian books on the subject.

I keep on fidning books I'd forgotten I owned. The other day I foudn a 
book on telephones from 1911. It's fascinating.,..

> 
> Since the original topic appears to be the Commodore 64, didn't there 
> used to be a book or two on the subject of repairing them?  I'm 
> pretty sure I have a couple in my library (I know I have or had a 
> couple for the early Macs).

Such books gernally fall into 2 classes..

The origianl service manual for the C64 (I think I have it somewhere) is 
jsut schematic sand parts lists. The poitn is that an experienced 
engineer doens't ened anything more. He/she knows how a computer works, 
knows aht the ICs do, etc. So all that's needed is a description of how 
they go togehter.

The second class tend to be lists of stock faults -- if toy get this 
problem, chanve that IC. As I mentioned, they work most of the time, but 
not all the time, and I'd rahther learn (and teach) general methods that 
work all the time and which cna be easily adapted to other devices

That aaid, I have seend a 'Sams Compufact' manual for the 1541 disk 
drive, and I assuem there must have been one fro the C64 too. It's pretty 
good. It does incldue the schematics. It doesn include proper 
fault-tracing infroamtion. It does have fault-didnign flowcharts that 
will work. Might be worth tryign to find the C64 one.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 25 15:13:10 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 21:13:10 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <C75262D20173402EBCAA5AA9600FDE31@vl420mt> from "MikeS" at Jun 25,
 12 00:21:04 am
Message-ID: <m1SjFeu-000J4jC@p850ug1>

> 
> Original Message:
> Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 05:41:11 -0400
> From: "Jeffrey Brace" <ark72axow at msn.com>
> 
> > Hello everyone,
> 
> > I was hoping for some definite direction in my endless quest to fix my
> > C64.
> 
> Then I would suggest that, instead of just venting your frustration that
> troubleshooting and repairing computers sometimes requires knowledge,
> experience and tools and isn't always easy to do via email without access to
> the machine, you accurately describe your symptoms in detail and ask for
> specific advice on a list like this where folks know what they're talking
> about; the Vintage Computer Forum is another good place, among others.

There are two possible approaches to giving help with such repairs, which 
could be compared to the 'give an man a fish' .vs. 'teach a man to fish'.

If somebody is starvingm then you give then food there and then. You 
mioght then go on to teach them how to get/prepar their own food, but the 
intinal thing is to get them fed. In the same way, if soembody needs to 
fix something _now_ then you tell them to put the multimeter prones there 
andto measure the voltage. then to do the same somewhere else. And then 
to change the regualtor IC or whatever. They don't leran anything, but 
the machine works again.

However, for most people o nthsi list, there is no real urgency in 
gettign their classic ocmputer running agian. aAnd for that reason I'd 
rather 'teach a man to fish'. Rather than telling them to check this and 
then change that IC, I'd ecplain to them how the thing should work, how to 
check things, and so on. In the end they will learn enough to be able to 
trace faults themselves, and the knowledge of fault diagnosis -- 
soemthign that seems to be rarely taught -- is preserved. None of us are 
goign to eb around for ever, so it is a Good Thing to pass on our skills 
in this way.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 25 14:47:28 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:47:28 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <p06240820cc0d7f6b16b0@[192.168.1.199]> from "Zane H. Healy" at
 Jun 24, 12 07:40:24 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjFG1-000J4gC@p850ug1>

> For good hand tools for working on electronics, I like the good 
> German made tools I find at "Rock and Gem" shows.  The dealers expect 

My favourite precision screwdrivers, tweexers, etc are not suprisingly 
Swiss (think : watchmaking). THey were not cheap!

> the buyers to use them in working on jewelry.  Having said that, most 
> of my tools aren't that nice, as the good stuff is expensive!

Err, yes. I know the provlem. Good tools are an invenstment, they will 
last avery long time. That's fine, if like me, you use them every day, 
and depend on them for good results. It's perhaps not so important if you 
only fix things occasionally.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 25 15:17:54 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 21:17:54 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Disk II cases
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206250434060.10848@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu> from
 "David Griffith" at Jun 25, 12 04:35:48 am
Message-ID: <m1SjFjU-000J4kC@p850ug1>

> If you have any broken Apple Disk IIs lying around, don't trash them. 

On this lsit? Trashing bits of classic computers? Surely not? 

> They appear to be excellent hosts for an all-in-one Discferret/Kryoflux 
> setup with two drives.  More to come later.

Some disk drives for the BBC micro used similar cases, which might be 
another source...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 25 14:53:04 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:53:04 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
In-Reply-To: <4FE774EC.13817.2655DAA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 24, 12 08:13:32 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjFLS-000J4hC@p850ug1>

> > What's the difference between the 1998 and 2011 editions?  I have the
> > '98 one.  It's one of the few books on the subject I can actually lay
> > my hands on, as it's sitting next to most of my books on Valve/Tube
> > Amplifiers.
> 
> Isn't it strange--Fred Terman's 1955 "Electronic and Radio 
> Engineering"--all 1000+ pages of it--appears to be going for near-
> junk prices ($0.26-0.50).   Go figure--a wonderful text from the guy 
> who gave Bill and Dave their larnin' is scrap now.
> 
> I guess most people want to know "how" more than "why"...

While I regard Fred Terman as an improatnt figure, and think his books 
are excellent, I also think that much of 'Radio Engineering' is not 
_directly_ applicable to computer repair. Sure there's useful information 
there, but you have to know how to relate it to mdoern circuitry.

'MEasurements in Radio Engineering' is an excellent book too. A lot of 
that is svery applicable today (certainly in my workshop), but then 
again, how often do you need to measure indcuatance accurately when 
fixing a clsssic computer? And while I am sure the resistance 
measurement methods given there are more accurate than the average chaep 
DMM, siad DMM will be good enoguh to find the open/shorted resisotr in 
your C64.

So, yes, I am not selling any ofr my Fred Terman books any time soon :-). 
But I don't think they're what the OP needs at this point.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Jun 25 15:04:24 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 21:04:24 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <4FE7D9AA.4000706@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Jun 24,
 12 10:23:22 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjFWQ-000J4iC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 6/24/2012 9:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> > On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, Jim Brain wrote:
> > And the classes on electronics were tube based with a casual intro to 
> > transistors after several semesters. I was way too impatient to go 
> > that route 
> The old Radio Shack "150 in 1" kit, some flea market broken electronics 
> gadgets, and the Forrest Mims little handbooks from RS were my start.

As I've mentioned before, I found the Philips EE xseries kits ot be the 
most educational, if only becausse you got to handle 'real' components, 
For (a trivial) example, you had to pick out the right resutor to used, 
identifying it by the coloured bands.

Back when you and I started (I guesS), jumble sale/flea market 
electronics was old radios, mostly. They might be valved or 
transistorised, but yo uhd a good chance of being able to identify the 
components, get replaements, or strip the thing and use the bits 
elsewhere. Now a lot of consumer devices consist of one IC, maybe even an 
direct-on-board oone with a blob of epoxy on top. There's little you can 
do to fix or reuse bis for such things :-(

[...]

>   * Sometimes the cheaper tool really is better.  I've used a whole host
>     of desoldering "vacuum" solutions, and some of the very expensive
>     professional options do indeed work well.  But, for utility,
>     portability, and ease of use, the $3.99 solder sucker bulb I bought
>     back in 1981 or so from Radio Shack works perfectly.  I can throw it
>     in the box when I go the shows, I've learned how to use it well, and
>     it and solder braid make a cool tag team of desoldering tools.  I
>     know others will curse the little red bulb, but it works well for
>     me, short of hauling my pro station to a show.

I think it's worth remenmebrign that it's not always necessary to use the 
most complex/expnsive tool.

I do an awful lot of fault trasing with a logic probe. Sure a 'socpe or 
LA will tell me more,. but the probe will pick up 'silly faults' -- a 
data bus line shorted to ground, a clock that isn't running, etc. And it 
needs no settign up, you just put it on the pin and see what is going on. 
Of course sometimes I need more complex instruments, but only after I've 
checkd for simple faults.

Another example. My father and I were doing a bit of DIY and we needed to 
dril la couple of holes in a metal bracket. My father went off to get the 
electric drill and an extension lead. While he was gone. I grabbed the 
hand drill and made the hoes. Sure a power drill is wuicker than a hand 
drill, but if you include the time in fetching it, settign it up, etc, 
then the hand drill can be faster fo jsut a couple of holes. 

Use the reight tools!

-tony



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 15:39:54 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 16:39:54 -0400
Subject: Polaroid Film Recorder (was Re: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II))
Message-ID: <CAALmimn2mzUJe3Gid0f=bpspKS5Qo1e30km45D3h=wKzqUrO9g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I might be able to help, though. I have a 'Polaroid Videopritner 4', for
> all Polaroid assured me they had never made such a beast... This is
> similar, but lower-reulotuon device, it displys TV-rate video on an
> internal CRT and photographs it.
>
> There's a colour fitler wheel (red, green, blue and a hole) so it cna
> print a colour inamge in 3 goes.

I have a similar device - two actually.  The first one I got for free
or nearly free, with a Polaroid camera, and no control panel.  The
second cost under $100 and had the control panel and a 35mm camera, so
between the two, I have one useful unit.  The Polaroid film in
question was sold for medical uses, so was quite expensive even 20
years ago when one could buy it off the shelf ($50-$70 per cassette, I
was told).

Like your "Videoprinter 4", mine has a mono CRT and a color wheel.
AFAIK, it does *4* exposures - R, G, B, and "contrast" (no filter).
It takes in an EGA signal or NTSC video, and has onboard memory for
frame capture of live video.  I've done some sample image grabbing
from a movie on laserdisc, and for practical uses, I use to make title
slides with it, back when we used 35mm slide projectors for
presentations (I produced the slide content on an Amiga since that was
the easiest thing to use that I had on hand).  Back when slide houses
charged several dollars each for presentation graphics, this was a
moderate-quality way of doing my own interstitials for slide shows for
the cost of one roll of ordinary 35mm slide film ($4-$5 for a roll of
Fuji E-6 ASA 100 film, $7-$8 for processing and mounting).

I haven't used it in years, but it was great 15+ years ago when I first got it.

-ethan


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun 25 16:18:47 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:18:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <m1SjF4y-000J4dC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SjF4y-000J4dC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20120625141149.W65869@shell.lmi.net>

> > Not everybody will agree with the concept of "buy crappy tools, so that
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
> My ears are burning :-)

I didn't think that I needed to spell it "ARD"

> However, there is a case to be made, I think, for buying the few tools
> you need -- and getting high quality ones -- rather than buying a large
> set of cheap tools.
> FOr example, you mentioned taps. I tend to buy only the sizes I need, anf
> get good ones, rathen than buyign one of the cheap imported srts with
> plenty of sizes I don;'t need and made from 'steel' that appears to
> actually be cheese...

In my case, there were too many situations where slightly obscure sizes
were needed (foreign cars), so my approach was a complete set of crap PLUS
good quality for all the ones used regularly.  'Course it DID get me an
early start on how to remove damaged fasteners! :-(   "Easy-out"s got
upgraded to better REAL early on.


> 1) Check the power supplies. Cheak the voltages nad check them for
> ripply. Power supply problems are suprisingly common, and no computer
> works porperly if it's not powered properly
> 2) Check the processor clock signal.

I'm proud to say that I at least mentioned the first two explicitly

> > People like us aren't going to stick with a rigid structure.  By high
> > school, my projects were becoming orthogonal to my teachers' lesson plans.
> You and I have a lot in common...

It's hard to create rigid lesson plans for "independent" students!  When I
was teaching programming, I learned that with SOME students, the best
thing that I could do was point a direction and get out of the way.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun 25 16:23:21 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:23:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <m1SjFeu-000J4jC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SjFeu-000J4jC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20120625142130.T65869@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
> There are two possible approaches to giving help with such repairs, which
> could be compared to the 'give an man a fish' .vs. 'teach a man to fish'.

and the irreverent sarcastic variant:
"If you build a man a fire, he will be warm for the night;
set him on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun 25 16:25:14 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:25:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <m1SjEjz-000J4YC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SjEjz-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20120625134719.L65869@shell.lmi.net>

> > Nor mine.  For that matter, Tony won't like my answers, either :-)
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
> Since you posted them publically, I think it is reasonable for me to
> reply to them, whether you like it or not :-).

I like it very much!
I was thinking about you with every sentence of my post.  I was hoping
that you would join in, fully knowing that we would not agree on the
"cheap tools" aspect.

> And that is soemthing else to be careful about. A friend of mine was
> nearely killed by a cheap mete. He measured the voltage of a maisn
> socket, it showed 240V or so, so the meter was working/ He flipped the
> breaker for what he thought was the right circuit, then measured the
> voltage again. 0 or so. So he thought he had isoalted the circuit and
> started to remove the socket. Alas the meter had taken that momemnt to
> fail (range swithc trouble I think) and he's flipped the wrong breaker.
> Result : He got the mains across him. Second result, he bought a good meter.

A few days ago, a friend was repairing a hot-tub (spa) controller.  He was
pretty sure that he had 220V, but the cheap meter said 0.  Then the probe
fell off of the end of its wire - so THAT'S why it read 0.   A meter, good
or bad, can not be a substitute for common sense.


> You are skipping over something vert important here.
More than a few things!  I only intended it as a framework, to be expanded
into a more thorough introduction to how to get started.


> Multimeters, and
> voltmeters in genral, have 2 leads. The poiunt is that it makes no real
> sense ot say 'the votlage here is 5V'. What you mean is 'the voltage here
> is 5V _with respect to this point which I am calling ground'. Knowing
> what point to take as the common 'ground' is often not obvious when you
> are startign out.

I did mention that (in the next step), but these instructions need a LOT
more detail!

> My list of simple hand tools for ocmputer repair is quite long, and to be
> fair you problaby don't need all of them. But I find I need screwdrives
> from 1mm to about 8mm, Phillips and Pozidriv ones too. And Allen hex
> tools, torx drivers, nutdrivers, etc. In some cases it does depend on
> what you are sorkign on. If you stick to C64s, you will not need Bristol
> Spline tools. If yoyu work on Flexowriters, or even IBM 5155s, you do.

I think that a set of screwdriver bits is a good start there.  There are
better screwdrivers than the bit holders, BUT, that could encourage using
the wrong size when a simple bit change (with a larger selection) could
have been done.  My father understood the difference between "plain" and
"phillips" screwdrivers, but he never did grasp why there was more than
one size of either!  I was about 10 when I started collecting my own hand
tools.   My current tools don't resemble my early ones.

> Get some decent pliers and cutters. Over here expect to pay \poudns 30.00
> for each (!). You will use them a lot .


> Kits are great at teaching you to solder, to identify compoennts and to
> put things together. They are less good at teaching electronics. I was

One reason why I hesitated about making specific recommendations!

> > STEP SEVEN:
> > Get all of the technical documents for all of the machines that you want
> > to work on, or are even just curious about
> Easier said than done in soem cases :-).

a career of its own!

> I think one thing that Fred and I agree on (from reading this ) is that
> there is no short-cut to being able to repair computers. You _do_ need
> to learn to use tools,. you do need ot learn how things should work, you
> do need to learn basic (and more) electronics.

> Sure there are 'stock fault lists'. Thigns that tell you that if it
> starts up with this sort of image on the monitor then you need ot change
> that chip. 99% of the time they're rignt./ 1% of the time they are not.
> And at that point, if all you have is the stock fault lsit, you are stuck.

They're great for "probabilistically" suggesting where to START looking,
but one still needs to master the tool usage, AND understand enough theory
to be able to confirm the suggested diagnosis.

> But if you are doing it for yourself, if you want ot fix that machine no
> matter what, then you have to learn the 'real' methods of fault
> diagnosis.
There is no substitute for learning logical processes




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Jun 25 16:27:28 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:27:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Disk II cases
In-Reply-To: <1340630077.11770.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1340630077.11770.YahooMailClassic@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120625142622.O65869@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Mr Ian Primus wrote:
> One problem with stuffing standard drives into a Disk II case (yes, I've
> done it...) is that they're *slightly* not deep enough for some 5 1/4"
> floppy drives to fit and still allow the power connector to mate. That,
> and there isn't enough room in a Disk II case to house a power supply.

The drive housings (all external) for TRS80 model 1 will handle long
drives.  Many of the after-market ones are not worthy of preservation.


From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Jun 25 16:51:33 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 14:51:33 -0700
Subject: [OT] pithy quotes (was Re: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s)
In-Reply-To: <20120625142130.T65869@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1SjFeu-000J4jC@p850ug1> <20120625142130.T65869@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4FE8DD65.6080303@brouhaha.com>

Fred Cisin wrote:
> "If you build a man a fire, he will be warm for the night;
> set him on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."

Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank.
Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Jun 25 13:38:38 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:38:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <20120625142130.T65869@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1SjFeu-000J4jC@p850ug1> <20120625142130.T65869@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206251137490.32611@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Fred Cisin wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
>> There are two possible approaches to giving help with such repairs, which
>> could be compared to the 'give an man a fish' .vs. 'teach a man to fish'.
>
> and the irreverent sarcastic variant:
> "If you build a man a fire, he will be warm for the night;
> set him on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
>
Another variant I heard a few years ago:

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day.  Teach a man to fish and he's 
all, "Bitch, where's my fish?!"

:)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Mon Jun 25 17:15:51 2012
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 16:15:51 -0600
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <m1SjEqM-000J4cC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SjEqM-000J4cC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FE8E317.3070009@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 6/25/2012 1:20 PM, Tony Duell wrote:

> A good book, IMHO is not one that you agree with. It's noe that makes you
> think why you might disagree with the authro. Those thoguths areh the
> educational bit.

I agreed so much with the authors with the second edition, I threw out 
the book.

> -tony
>
The problem with beginners book is that they thing the beginner is *Stupid*.
I want them *simple*, that deal with the real world. I am using a FW bridge,
what is the parameters again for output voltage. Ahh see page 45. table #2.
Ben.






From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Jun 25 17:46:39 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 18:46:39 -0400
Subject: [OT] pithy quotes (was Re: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s)
In-Reply-To: <4FE8DD65.6080303@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1SjFeu-000J4jC@p850ug1> <20120625142130.T65869@shell.lmi.net>
 <4FE8DD65.6080303@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4FE8EA4F.6050300@neurotica.com>

On 06/25/2012 05:51 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> Fred Cisin wrote:
>> "If you build a man a fire, he will be warm for the night;
>> set him on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
> 
> Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank.
> Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.

  Nice!  And very true!

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 25 18:04:01 2012
From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 19:04:01 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <1D8ED26A-691D-4501-9851-BCDF5F604D3B@gmail.com>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@YAHOO.COM>
 <1D8ED26A-691D-4501-9851-BCDF5F604D3B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001801cd5326$dc3d25f0$94b771d0$@YAHOO.COM>

> 
> That sounds like fun, but do you have a source of PGA '030s readily
available?
> I haven't been actively looking in some time, but last I checked you could
> expect to shell out upwards of $30 each, which seems a little much for a
> hobbyist SBC (the sockets aren't the cheapest things on earth, either).
'040s
> are somewhat easier to find in quantity and are pretty nice performers,
> though I've never looked at an '040 design closely enough to tell whether
the
> bus interface is that much harder.
> 
> 
> - Dave

Hi Dave

Yes, the conversation on a hobbyist 68040 SBC is continuing on the N8VEM
mailing list.  After doing some research on a notional design (MC68040 with
MC68360 in "companion mode")  and some bare bones IO (using a Propeller) I
am stunned at how expensive such a design would be.  I realize Motorola lost
the hardware price wars in the 1990's and now I know why!  This will cost a
fortune to build!

The MC68040 is very expensive and the MC68360 is also expensive but at least
there is a "low cost" (<$30) in large SMT-only packages (QFP-240).  Ugh.
Even a stripped down SBC is going to be very expensive to build and will
almost certainly require SMT devices.  The MC68030 is essentially
unobtainium except for onesie/twosie deals on eBay.

I am discovering the fully 32 bit Motorola processors with MMU are not
"hobbyist friendly" by any stretch.  Any help greatly appreciated!  Thanks
and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

PS, if you are interested in the 68040 SBC discussion you are welcome to
join us on the N8VEM mailing list.




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 18:20:43 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 19:20:43 -0400
Subject: Interested in learning 68000 hard/soft
In-Reply-To: <001801cd5326$dc3d25f0$94b771d0$@YAHOO.COM>
References: <4FDF55A4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <1EE050F4-8EA3-41F1-A006-42EDC2A2B6C8@hack.net>
 <29F251DF-A70B-4158-939E-78F121B1200D@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@YAHOO.COM>
 <1D8ED26A-691D-4501-9851-BCDF5F604D3B@gmail.com>
 <001801cd5326$dc3d25f0$94b771d0$@YAHOO.COM>
Message-ID: <86E2609B-F1E3-42CA-A591-317CA68ACF61@gmail.com>

On Jun 25, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote:

> Hi Dave
> 
> Yes, the conversation on a hobbyist 68040 SBC is continuing on the N8VEM
> mailing list.  After doing some research on a notional design (MC68040 with
> MC68360 in "companion mode")  and some bare bones IO (using a Propeller) I
> am stunned at how expensive such a design would be.  I realize Motorola lost
> the hardware price wars in the 1990's and now I know why!  This will cost a
> fortune to build!

Well, it cuts both ways.  The chips were more expensive and are rarer now
because they were produced in lower volume.  The causal relationships for
the prices are complex and interdependent at best.  They didn't exactly
lose the hardware wars in embedded systems, but that market was so far
dwarfed by the IBM-compatible PC market that it scarcely matters.

> 
> The MC68040 is very expensive and the MC68360 is also expensive but at least
> there is a "low cost" (<$30) in large SMT-only packages (QFP-240).  Ugh.
> Even a stripped down SBC is going to be very expensive to build and will
> almost certainly require SMT devices.  The MC68030 is essentially
> unobtainium except for onesie/twosie deals on eBay.

The '040 is expensive new, but I find it to be cheaper and more readily
available on eBay, at least (about $25 each vs $35-$70).  I think it's
because no PQFPs of the '040 were (to my knowledge) ever developed, so
while many '030s (especially on Macs) were PQFPs that were never pulled
from dead units.  The '040, on the other hand, was only ever available
in CQFP (which few people like to use) and CPGA, which is a lot more
recoverable.

My recollection is that the '040 was only available in ceramic because
it ran so damn hot (for the time, anyway).  I don't recall the 486
being much better in that respect; every one I saw had at least a
heat sink on it.

> I am discovering the fully 32 bit Motorola processors with MMU are not
> "hobbyist friendly" by any stretch.  Any help greatly appreciated!  Thanks
> and have a nice day!

Well, no more so than the equivalent 80x86 CPUs.  The 68000 is a little
harder to interface to a bus than an 8086, but people are much more
used to doing the latter.  Moving forward, they're all a pain in the
neck.

> PS, if you are interested in the 68040 SBC discussion you are welcome to
> join us on the N8VEM mailing list.

I would love to!  I never quite figured out how to join, but that's
due to lack of effort on my part.  One of these days I'll find some
round tuits and jump aboard.


- Dave






From a50mhzham at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 18:55:33 2012
From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 18:55:33 -0500
Subject: [OT] pithy quotes (was Re: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s)
In-Reply-To: <4FE8EA4F.6050300@neurotica.com>
References: <m1SjFeu-000J4jC@p850ug1> <20120625142130.T65869@shell.lmi.net>
 <4FE8DD65.6080303@brouhaha.com> <4FE8EA4F.6050300@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4fe8fb65.88a1320a.60d9.0f93@mx.google.com>

At 05:46 PM 6/25/2012, you wrote:
>On 06/25/2012 05:51 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> > Fred Cisin wrote:
> >> "If you build a man a fire, he will be warm for the night;
> >> set him on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
> >
> > Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank.
> > Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
                 -Groucho Marx.







867 . [Philosophy]VOCATUS ATQUE NON VOCATUS DEUS 
ADERIT (Bidden or not bidden, God is present.) 
--Carl Jung, carved over his front door (and on his tombstone.)
NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio)
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? Registered Linux User 385531


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Jun 25 20:00:36 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 21:00:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <m1SjEjz-000J4YC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SjEjz-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201206260100.VAA00624@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Buy some kits and assemble them.  Now get them to WORK.
> Kits are great at teaching you to solder, to identify compoennts and
> to put things together.  They are less good at teaching electronics.

Depends on the kit.  The one kit I built included a schematic, a block
diagram, and a reasonably detailed theory-of-operation section.

Of course, that _was_ some 35 years ago.

Eep.  I'm getting old. :(

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From n0body.h0me at inbox.com  Mon Jun 25 22:33:38 2012
From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 19:33:38 -0800
Subject: [OT] pithy quotes (was Re: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s)
In-Reply-To: <4fe8fb65.88a1320a.60d9.0f93@mx.google.com>
References: <20120625142130.t65869@shell.lmi.net>
 <4fe8ea4f.6050300@neurotica.com> <m1sjfeu-000j4jc@p850ug1>
 <4fe8dd65.6080303@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <1208DB373EC.00000BE2n0body.h0me@inbox.com>



> At 05:46 PM 6/25/2012, you wrote:
> >On 06/25/2012 05:51 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
>>> Fred Cisin wrote:
>>>> "If you build a man a fire, he will be warm for the night;
>>>> set him on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
>>> 
>>> Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank.
>>> Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.
> 
> Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
> Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
>                  -Groucho Marx.


Every dog may have his day,
But at the end of that day, he's still a dog.

____________________________________________________________
FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop!
Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium





From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 23:25:05 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 21:25:05 -0700
Subject: Emulex QD21 firmware
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLN8E5MyiMjVXxcunhvuoeVcQaO_KLVGJv616pQN8Frmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120625195028.GA6639@mail.loomcom.com>
 <CAM2UOwJGoFkkoFx4AVRG9XBPL79eT4QhexJ822QsLiitY4JKfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwLN8E5MyiMjVXxcunhvuoeVcQaO_KLVGJv616pQN8Frmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKnAGNAMdhYq9TAXZpEX=URNHJuefuP_=W7iiiA91UrxQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have the following versions of firmware EPROMs for the Emulex QD21:

E65C - 16KB
E65G - 32KB
E65J - 32KB


There no text strings in the Rev C firmware and no on board
Firmware-Resident Diagnostic.


The Rev G firmware has the following on board main menu:

Emulex Corporation
Copyright All rights reserved
QD21 controller, firmware revision level  IP address =

Option menu
1 - Format
2 - Format and verify
3 - Verify
4 - Read only test
5 - Data reliability test
6 - List known units
7 - Replace block
8 - Display Novram
9 - Edit / Load Novram

  Enter option number:


The Rev J firmware has the following on board main menu:

Firmware-Resident Diagnostic
Copyright (c) 1988 Emulex Corporation all rights reserved

QD21 controller, firmware revision level  IP address =

Option menu
1  - Self Test Loop
2  - Format
3  - Verify
4  - Format and Verify
5  - Data Reliability Test
6  - Format, Verify, and Data Reliability Test
7  - Read Only Test
8  - List Known Units
9  - Replace Block
10 - Print RCT
11 - Display Novram
12 - Edit / Load Novram

  Enter option number:


From microcode at zoho.com  Mon Jun 25 23:48:19 2012
From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 04:48:19 +0000
Subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
In-Reply-To: <20120625113520.G65869@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>
 <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]>
 <07b101cd5292$837ea3b0$6700a8c0@tababook>
 <20120625113520.G65869@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <201206260448.q5Q4mPkt063592@billy.ezwind.net>

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:39:11 -0700 (PDT)
Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

> > >>If I send you $20 each, could you get some of those "under $10"
> > >>copies?
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
> >     I'd pay $30. The cheapest in Brazil is around $300 :o(
> 
> How much does Abebooks charge to ship to Brazil?

They don't, it's up to their vendors. They're actually a middleman as you
note below. But they do show the shipping prices on each item, once your
location is set. 

> Interesting how there can be a sequence of aggregators linked to
> aggregators, linked to aggregators.  The actual book listed in addall, is
> sold by Abebooks, on behalf of VBK, yet seems to work seamlessly (IFF it
> actually arrives)

I've used AbeBooks for years. It was recommended to me by a
professor/author with a house full of books. The service is excellent and
the one dispute I had was taken care of to my satisfaction. And I live much
further away from them than Alexandre does ;-)

And BTW most of the books set for 10-20 day shipping come in a week. I buy
only from the 5 star sellers, very rarely the 4 star ones and I have no
problems. Good site.



From p.gebhardt at ymail.com  Tue Jun 26 00:39:04 2012
From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 06:39:04 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Emulex/Dilog firmware on bitsavers?
In-Reply-To: <20120625195028.GA6639@mail.loomcom.com>
References: <20120625195028.GA6639@mail.loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <1340689144.38081.YahooMailNeo@web29115.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Hi everybody,

realizing that quite some people make use of Emulex and Dilog controllers in PDPs and VAXen led me to the idea that it maybe would be a good thing to store firmware with different/latest revisions of these boards to an online place, as some asked for differences and latest revisions of these boards, lately.
For the future, would it be possible to put these on bitsavers for example? Any other ideas / thoughts?

Kind regards,
Pierre

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/


________________________________
 Von: Seth Morabito <lists at loomcom.com>
An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Gesendet: 21:50 Montag, 25.Juni 2012
Betreff: Emulex QD21 firmware
 

I've got an Emulex QD21 (Qbus ESDI controller) with a Rev. D firmware on
it. The later revisions of this card (Rev. E and later) shipped with a
much nicer firmware that included autoconfiguration, and a menu-driven
formatter and diagnostics package.

Does anyone happen to have a ROM image for Rev. E or later? I'd love
to upgrade my board.

-Seth

From cym224 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 07:42:28 2012
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 08:42:28 -0400
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <p06240823cc0d82a5d846@192.168.1.199>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>
 <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>
 <p06240823cc0d82a5d846@192.168.1.199>
Message-ID: <CAJfiPzx=3v8cGokSvLuORPVt7G4hXu-wkpGAnbbLoYHbT4S_UQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 June 2012 22:52, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote (in part):
> At 10:44 PM -0400 6/24/12, David Riley wrote (in part):
>>
>> On Jun 24, 2012, at 7:23 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>>>> ?"Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
>>> ?On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, David Riley wrote (in part):
[...]
>>> ?Really?
>>> ?Seriously, ?What am I doing wrong?
>>> ?Amazon has one copy of the 1982 edition for $176
>>> ?and no copies right now of the 1998 or 2011 editions.
[...]
> You might want to try www.abebooks.com, or Alibris (no, I didn't check).

International versions of the second edition are available for under $30.



From cctech at beyondthepale.ie  Mon Jun 25 18:13:55 2012
From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 00:13:55 +0100 (WET-DST)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
Message-ID: <01OH4ANW98BC000XSR@beyondthepale.ie>

>
>And that is soemthing else to be careful about. A friend of mine was 
>nearely killed by a cheap mete. He measured the voltage of a maisn 
>socket, it showed 240V or so, so the meter was working/ He flipped the 
>breaker for what he thought was the right circuit, then measured the 
>voltage again. 0 or so. So he thought he had isoalted the circuit and 
>started to remove the socket. Alas the meter had taken that momemnt to 
>fail (range swithc trouble I think) and he's flipped the wrong breaker. 
>Result : He got the mains across him. Second result, he bought a good meter.
>

I can't agree with this. He was not nearly killed by a cheap meter. He was
nearly killed because he did not appreciate what could go wrong. While it is
less likely to fail, a good meter can still fail. Also, if (for example) the
building was wired badly and the breaker opened the neutral, he could still
have been in trouble, even with a good meter that was working properly.

I prefer to use a neon tester for this sort of job. It doesn't need a
functional neutral or ground in order to operate and there is less to go wrong
than a meter. However, it can still go wrong and should be tested on a live
point before and after using it to identify that a circuit has been powered
off and lighting conditions must be such that the glow can be seen.

Having verified that the power is off by whatever method (and made sure someone
else could not inadvertently switch it back on), continue to take care. Do not
dive in and grab a conductor in each hand. It is often possible to treat the 
circuit as if it is still live - use insulated tools, don't touch any bare
conductors and don't let any bare conductors touch each other or anything
else conductive. If it is necessary to touch a conductor, I would suggest first
brushing it with the back of a finger after ensuring there are no paths
to ground through the the other hand in particular or any other body parts in
general. Think about using a different method if you are on a high ladder.

Don't believe that using a good meter or a good anything else is all you need
to keep safe. Whatever you use, think about what could go wrong.

(If you decide to use a neon tester, make sure it is a mains rated neon tester
 and not an very similar looking instrument containing a low voltage filament
 bulb intended for automotive testing!)

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.


From vier321 at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 25 19:20:57 2012
From: vier321 at hotmail.com (Erik W.)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 02:20:57 +0200
Subject: IBM Model B typewriter for IBM 1620 or PDP-1
Message-ID: <BAY151-W4700D39E692E3CB2120D08F7E00@phx.gbl>



Hi Folks,
I have an original IBM model B computer controlled typewriter witha lot of spares and maintenance manuals available for sale ortrade.  This stuff is impossible to find.  As used on the IBM 1620,DEC PDP-1 and many other computers of the era.  Useful if you'remaintaining one of those or want to build a replica/simulator.
Respond to me directly as I'm not a member of this list.
Thanks, Erik 		 	   		  

From microcode at zoho.com  Tue Jun 26 01:25:43 2012
From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 06:25:43 +0000
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <CAJfiPzx=3v8cGokSvLuORPVt7G4hXu-wkpGAnbbLoYHbT4S_UQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>
 <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>
 <p06240823cc0d82a5d846@192.168.1.199>
 <CAJfiPzx=3v8cGokSvLuORPVt7G4hXu-wkpGAnbbLoYHbT4S_UQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201206260625.q5Q6PnHp064571@billy.ezwind.net>

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 08:42:28 -0400
Nemo <cym224 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 24 June 2012 22:52, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote (in
> part):
> > At 10:44 PM -0400 6/24/12, David Riley wrote (in part):
> >>
> >> On Jun 24, 2012, at 7:23 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> >>>>> ?"Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
> >>> ?On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, David Riley wrote (in part):
> [...]
> >>> ?Really?
> >>> ?Seriously, ?What am I doing wrong?
> >>> ?Amazon has one copy of the 1982 edition for $176
> >>> ?and no copies right now of the 1998 or 2011 editions.
> [...]
> > You might want to try www.abebooks.com, or Alibris (no, I didn't check).
> 
> International versions of the second edition are available for under $30.

Be careful with international editions. They're usually printed on paper
about one molecule thick with recycled ink. We get a lot of them here and
they're almost unreadable at times. The covers are also usually very thin.
I'm talking about the ones targeted towards India/Bangladesh and that part
of the world which as far as I know is the bulk of the international
editions and where many of them are printed.

The exception I found is international editions made for Korea and Japan.
They are up to American quality standards. I don't know what makes them
international but I have received a few with disclaimers that the book is
only to be sold in those places and not others, so I know these editions
exist.

I'm to the point now after getting burned badly on "big savings" buying an
international edition that I avoid them completely. I'll pay extra for a
regular edition or wait until the price becomes reasonable.



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 26 01:33:58 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 02:33:58 -0400
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <CAJfiPzx=3v8cGokSvLuORPVt7G4hXu-wkpGAnbbLoYHbT4S_UQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>
 <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>
 <p06240823cc0d82a5d846@192.168.1.199>
 <CAJfiPzx=3v8cGokSvLuORPVt7G4hXu-wkpGAnbbLoYHbT4S_UQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE957D6.4090003@neurotica.com>

On 06/25/2012 08:42 AM, Nemo wrote:
>>>>>>  "Art of Electronics" by Horowitz is GREAT, but it costs money.
>>>>  On Sun, 24 Jun 2012, David Riley wrote (in part):
> [...]
>>>>  Really?
>>>>  Seriously,  What am I doing wrong?
>>>>  Amazon has one copy of the 1982 edition for $176
>>>>  and no copies right now of the 1998 or 2011 editions.
> [...]
>> You might want to try www.abebooks.com, or Alibris (no, I didn't check).
> 
> International versions of the second edition are available for under $30.

  No, you really don't want to go there.  The "international versions"
of books are of the absolute shittiest quality.  No color illustrations
or images (if there were supposed to be any in the first place), but
that's not a big deal.  What IS a big deal is that the paper is so thin,
you can read what's on the page, what's on the other side of the page,
and often what's on the top surface of the NEXT page as well.  I'm not
kidding!  This is not only Just Plain Cheap, it's very difficult to read.

  Cover material and binding is similarly cheap.  That book is already
tattered and worn, and I've only had it for a couple of years.  It was
brand new when I bought it!  I have far more heavily used books that
I've had for 25 years that are in better condition!

  I made the mistake of purchasing the "international version" of a very
expensive book using the standard American credo: "Because it's
CHEAPER!".  It was Power Electronics, by Rashid.  It's an excellent
book, content-wise.  I thought I was being a "smart shopper" by paying
$31.00 for what is normally a $100-120 book.  Boy was that a mistake.
I've since become wise to this, talked with a publisher (that one), have
discussed it with other consumers, and have found quite a few of these
crappy tomes in used bookstores.  I won't touch them with a ten foot
pole, I don't care HOW inexpensive they are.

  Buy quality books.  Being cheap just doesn't pay when it comes to
tools, test equipment, food...or books.  Some savings come at too high a
price.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From microcode at zoho.com  Tue Jun 26 01:42:58 2012
From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 06:42:58 +0000
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <4FE957D6.4090003@neurotica.com>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>
 <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>
 <p06240823cc0d82a5d846@192.168.1.199>
 <CAJfiPzx=3v8cGokSvLuORPVt7G4hXu-wkpGAnbbLoYHbT4S_UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE957D6.4090003@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <201206260643.q5Q6h4Zn064713@billy.ezwind.net>

>   Buy quality books.  Being cheap just doesn't pay when it comes to
> tools, test equipment, food...or books.  Some savings come at too high a
> price.

If this wasn't a mailing list it would have been a post that should be
stickied.



From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 26 02:48:13 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 00:48:13 -0700
Subject: Emulex/Dilog firmware on bitsavers?
In-Reply-To: <1340689144.38081.YahooMailNeo@web29115.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <20120625195028.GA6639@mail.loomcom.com>
 <1340689144.38081.YahooMailNeo@web29115.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FE9693D.4000807@bitsavers.org>

On 6/25/12 10:39 PM, P Gebhardt wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> realizing that quite some people make use of Emulex and Dilog controllers in PDPs and VAXen led me to the idea that it maybe would be a good thing to store firmware with different/latest revisions of these boards to an online place, as some asked for differences and latest revisions of these boards, lately.
> For the future, would it be possible to put these on bitsavers for example? Any other ideas / thoughts?
that would be fine with me. I ended up putting the KDJ11-B firmware with 
the manuals in the
pdf section just to keep things together (and they were small)

I could put up the reworked CMD pals and proms as well.




From abs at absd.org  Tue Jun 26 04:43:38 2012
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 10:43:38 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know of any adaptors to fit a "modern" drive (be it IDE,
SCSI, ATA, CompactFlash etc) into a machine with an ST-506/412
interface?

Or more reasonably knowing this list, does anyone know of schematics
and board kits? :)


From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 04:55:05 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 11:55:05 +0200
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACStewaVAdpCy6t0FF8jbJT+xv59TD5GnmKaSBxhL2+rBU+MiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 11:43 AM, David Brownlee <abs at absd.org> wrote:
> Does anyone know of any adaptors to fit a "modern" drive (be it IDE,
> SCSI, ATA, CompactFlash etc) into a machine with an ST-506/412
> interface?
>
> Or more reasonably knowing this list, does anyone know of schematics
> and board kits? :)

Oooh, yes please!

re,

Sander

-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 08:22:01 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 09:22:01 -0400
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>

On Jun 26, 2012, at 5:43 AM, David Brownlee wrote:

> Does anyone know of any adaptors to fit a "modern" drive (be it IDE,
> SCSI, ATA, CompactFlash etc) into a machine with an ST-506/412
> interface?

That... would be quite the task.  The ST-506 and cousins directly
output the raw flux transitions as their data, so you'd need an
emulator which spit out the data as repeated cylinders, I believe.
Trying to interpret incoming data as low-level formatting would be
another matter entirely.  You'd probably be better off emulating
the interface to the drives (e.g. emulate an MFM controller).

On the other hand, it's not *that* different from emulating a
floppy drive, which people have done successfully.  It wouldn't
be impossible, but I imagine it would take some thought to get
it right.


- Dave



From keithvz at verizon.net  Tue Jun 26 08:51:18 2012
From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 09:51:18 -0400
Subject: Art of Electronics
In-Reply-To: <201206260448.q5Q4mPkt063592@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]>
 <07b101cd5292$837ea3b0$6700a8c0@tababook>
 <20120625113520.G65869@shell.lmi.net>
 <201206260448.q5Q4mPkt063592@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <4FE9BE56.9060609@verizon.net>

On 6/26/2012 12:48 AM, microcode at zoho.com wrote:

> And BTW most of the books set for 10-20 day shipping come in a week. I buy
> only from the 5 star sellers, very rarely the 4 star ones and I have no
> problems. Good site.

I've used abebooks while searching for original first edition of books 
published in the UK from 100 years ago....

If microcode is referring to USPS Media Mail delivery in the US, be 
aware that it can definitely take the better part of a month to be 
delivered.  I ordered a book from a seller (different service than abe) 
and they shipped it media mail.  It took upwards of three weeks, and was 
not the right book(very similar title, same author/publisher, so mistake 
seemed honest enough).  Shipped it back, and then they shipped the right 
one.  It took almost two months to get what I ordered.

I'll always be paying an extra $10 for faster shipping --- whether the 
book is a $4.00 book or not.

The shipper was only located a few states away on the East Coast.  I 
joked about being able to walk the distance in a shorter time.

Keith



From schoedel at kw.igs.net  Tue Jun 26 09:18:46 2012
From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 10:18:46 -0400
Subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
In-Reply-To: <201206260448.q5Q4mPkt063592@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]>
 <07b101cd5292$837ea3b0$6700a8c0@tababook>
 <20120625113520.G65869@shell.lmi.net>
 <201206260448.q5Q4mPkt063592@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <20120626141152.M61907@kw.igs.net>

On Tue, 26 Jun 2012 04:48:19 +0000, microcode wrote
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 11:39:11 -0700 (PDT)
> > How much does Abebooks charge to ship to Brazil?
> 
> They don't, it's up to their vendors. They're actually a middleman as you
> note below. But they do show the shipping prices on each item, once 
> your location is set.

A bookseller and aggregator that non-Americans might want to look at is
betterworldbooks.com. All listed prices, including third-party listings, include
worldwide shipping, which often means lower total cost for those outside the US,
especially on small orders. 

-- 
Kevin Schoedel <schoedel at kw.igs.net> VA3TCS



From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 26 10:56:17 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 08:56:17 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE9DBA1.1060407@bitsavers.org>

On 6/26/12 2:43 AM, David Brownlee wrote:
> Does anyone know of any adaptors to fit a "modern" drive (be it IDE,
> SCSI, ATA, CompactFlash etc) into a machine with an ST-506/412
> interface?
>

There are none right now. How much would you be willing to spend on
an assembled and tested board? There has been discussions on doing one
for years and I would guess it would be about $300 to make.




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 26 10:57:05 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 11:57:05 -0400
Subject: Art of Electronics
In-Reply-To: <4FE9BE56.9060609@verizon.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]>
 <07b101cd5292$837ea3b0$6700a8c0@tababook>
 <20120625113520.G65869@shell.lmi.net>
 <201206260448.q5Q4mPkt063592@billy.ezwind.net> <4FE9BE56.9060609@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4FE9DBD1.8050702@neurotica.com>

On 06/26/2012 09:51 AM, Keith Monahan wrote:
> If microcode is referring to USPS Media Mail delivery in the US, be
> aware that it can definitely take the better part of a month to be
> delivered.  I ordered a book from a seller (different service than abe)
> and they shipped it media mail.  It took upwards of three weeks, and was
> not the right book(very similar title, same author/publisher, so mistake
> seemed honest enough).  Shipped it back, and then they shipped the right
> one.  It took almost two months to get what I ordered.
> 
> I'll always be paying an extra $10 for faster shipping --- whether the
> book is a $4.00 book or not.
> 
> The shipper was only located a few states away on the East Coast.  I
> joked about being able to walk the distance in a shorter time. 

  It continually amazes me that that organization is still in business.
 It surely wouldn't be if the gov't wasn't propping it up.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 11:06:17 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 17:06:17 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE9DBA1.1060407@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9DBA1.1060407@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4FE9DDF9.7040909@gmail.com>

On 26/06/2012 16:56, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 6/26/12 2:43 AM, David Brownlee wrote:
>> Does anyone know of any adaptors to fit a "modern" drive (be it IDE,
>> SCSI, ATA, CompactFlash etc) into a machine with an ST-506/412
>> interface?
>>
>
> There are none right now. How much would you be willing to spend on
> an assembled and tested board? There has been discussions on doing one
> for years and I would guess it would be about $300 to make.
>
>
I think the time may come when its needed. I have some IBM 3174s with 
ST225 MFM drives which are dying.

-- 
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 26 11:23:32 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 12:23:32 -0400
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE9DDF9.7040909@gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9DBA1.1060407@bitsavers.org> <4FE9DDF9.7040909@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE9E204.5020700@neurotica.com>

On 06/26/2012 12:06 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
>>> Does anyone know of any adaptors to fit a "modern" drive (be it IDE,
>>> SCSI, ATA, CompactFlash etc) into a machine with an ST-506/412
>>> interface?
>>
>> There are none right now. How much would you be willing to spend on
>> an assembled and tested board? There has been discussions on doing one
>> for years and I would guess it would be about $300 to make.
>
> I think the time may come when its needed. I have some IBM 3174s with
> ST225 MFM drives which are dying.

  I agree.  MFM drives have dried up very quickly, and prices are
rising.  The only place I can still find them cheaply is hamfests, where
people are still clueless about their value.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From abs at absd.org  Tue Jun 26 11:41:06 2012
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 17:41:06 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 June 2012 14:22, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 26, 2012, at 5:43 AM, David Brownlee wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know of any adaptors to fit a "modern" drive (be it IDE,
>> SCSI, ATA, CompactFlash etc) into a machine with an ST-506/412
>> interface?
>
> That... would be quite the task. ?The ST-506 and cousins directly
> output the raw flux transitions as their data, so you'd need an
> emulator which spit out the data as repeated cylinders, I believe.
> Trying to interpret incoming data as low-level formatting would be
> another matter entirely. ?You'd probably be better off emulating
> the interface to the drives (e.g. emulate an MFM controller).
>
> On the other hand, it's not *that* different from emulating a
> floppy drive, which people have done successfully. ?It wouldn't
> be impossible, but I imagine it would take some thought to get
> it right.

I'm assuming the real time computational requirements would preclude
doing something clever with a relatively thin IO board and an
interface into a system running a general purpose OS. On the other
hand given the relative speeds of the interface and a modern CPU maybe
not...

(Envisioning something hanging off a Raspberry pi for a moment :)



From abs at absd.org  Tue Jun 26 11:42:59 2012
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 17:42:59 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE9DBA1.1060407@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9DBA1.1060407@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6paq45etk9U_CknQB-aR4UEwvQDhrCLnFxz=e+OSV64b+w@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 June 2012 16:56, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> On 6/26/12 2:43 AM, David Brownlee wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know of any adaptors to fit a "modern" drive (be it IDE,
>> SCSI, ATA, CompactFlash etc) into a machine with an ST-506/412
>> interface?
>>
>
> There are none right now. How much would you be willing to spend on
> an assembled and tested board? There has been discussions on doing one
> for years and I would guess it would be about $300 to make.

I'm currently between machines which would benefit from this, but I do
not expect that state of affairs to last. That would be right at the
top of my budget for such a device, but definitely possible.

Presumably the question is how many people would need to commit to an
initial run to make it viable...


From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 26 11:43:33 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 09:43:33 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE9E204.5020700@neurotica.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9DBA1.1060407@bitsavers.org> <4FE9DDF9.7040909@gmail.com>
 <4FE9E204.5020700@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4FE9E6B5.8070103@bitsavers.org>

On 6/26/12 9:23 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 06/26/2012 12:06 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
>>>> Does anyone know of any adaptors to fit a "modern" drive (be it IDE,
>>>> SCSI, ATA, CompactFlash etc) into a machine with an ST-506/412
>>>> interface?
>>>
>>> There are none right now. How much would you be willing to spend on
>>> an assembled and tested board? There has been discussions on doing one
>>> for years and I would guess it would be about $300 to make.
>>
>> I think the time may come when its needed. I have some IBM 3174s with
>> ST225 MFM drives which are dying.
>
>    I agree.  MFM drives have dried up very quickly, and prices are
> rising.  The only place I can still find them cheaply is hamfests, where
> people are still clueless about their value.
>
>               -Dave
>

Seagate half height 5" is well past its use by date. These are really needed
for 8" Quantum 20x0 replacements. Q2080's were marginal 15 years ago. I don't
think I have any that are left working in my Xerox 8010s.





From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 26 11:48:23 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 09:48:23 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE9E7D7.4060302@bitsavers.org>

On 6/26/12 9:41 AM, David Brownlee wrote:
> On 26 June 2012 14:22, David Riley<fraveydank at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On Jun 26, 2012, at 5:43 AM, David Brownlee wrote:
>>
>>> Does anyone know of any adaptors to fit a "modern" drive (be it IDE,
>>> SCSI, ATA, CompactFlash etc) into a machine with an ST-506/412
>>> interface?
>>
>> That... would be quite the task.  The ST-506 and cousins directly
>> output the raw flux transitions as their data, so you'd need an
>> emulator which spit out the data as repeated cylinders, I believe.
>> Trying to interpret incoming data as low-level formatting would be
>> another matter entirely.  You'd probably be better off emulating
>> the interface to the drives (e.g. emulate an MFM controller).
>>
>> On the other hand, it's not *that* different from emulating a
>> floppy drive, which people have done successfully.  It wouldn't
>> be impossible, but I imagine it would take some thought to get
>> it right.
>
> I'm assuming the real time computational requirements would preclude
> doing something clever with a relatively thin IO board and an
> interface into a system running a general purpose OS. On the other
> hand given the relative speeds of the interface and a modern CPU maybe
> not...
>
> (Envisioning something hanging off a Raspberry pi for a moment :)
>
>
>

You may be able to do something clever on the front end with a propeller. I haven't
looked at what their performance is like. ST412 data rates are on the order of 10Mhz
which isn't going to work with GPIO. Philip is using an FPGA on the Diskferret to
capture MFM data (don't know how much time he's been able to spend on this lately).





From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 26 11:49:59 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 12:49:59 -0400
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>

On 06/26/2012 12:41 PM, David Brownlee wrote:
>>> Does anyone know of any adaptors to fit a "modern" drive (be it IDE,
>>> SCSI, ATA, CompactFlash etc) into a machine with an ST-506/412
>>> interface?
>>
>> That... would be quite the task.  The ST-506 and cousins directly
>> output the raw flux transitions as their data, so you'd need an
>> emulator which spit out the data as repeated cylinders, I believe.
>> Trying to interpret incoming data as low-level formatting would be
>> another matter entirely.  You'd probably be better off emulating
>> the interface to the drives (e.g. emulate an MFM controller).
>>
>> On the other hand, it's not *that* different from emulating a
>> floppy drive, which people have done successfully.  It wouldn't
>> be impossible, but I imagine it would take some thought to get
>> it right.
> 
> I'm assuming the real time computational requirements would preclude
> doing something clever with a relatively thin IO board and an
> interface into a system running a general purpose OS. On the other
> hand given the relative speeds of the interface and a modern CPU maybe
> not...
> 
> (Envisioning something hanging off a Raspberry pi for a moment :)

  I would think that a bit of analog hardware could generate the signals
to mimic flux transitions.  At that point, the microcontroller's only
high-speed-requiring job would be generating the encoding, which isn't
tough for a fast one.

  About the Raspberry Pi in particular...I'm having a very hard time
getting excited about it.  It's a neat board, to be sure, but it's only
the twentieth or thirtieth design just like it (and nobody got this
excited about its predecessors), and you can't actually GET one without
spending months on end on a waiting list.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 26 12:08:43 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 10:08:43 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE9E6B5.8070103@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE9E204.5020700@neurotica.com>, <4FE9E6B5.8070103@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4FE98A2B.32037.365A7D@cclist.sydex.com>

On 26 Jun 2012 at 9:43, Al Kossow wrote:

> Seagate half height 5" is well past its use by date. These are really
> needed for 8" Quantum 20x0 replacements. Q2080's were marginal 15
> years ago. I don't think I have any that are left working in my Xerox
> 8010s.

I'm prototyping an MFM drive eliminator as we speak.  It takes quite 
a bit more horsepower than a floppy simulator--but modern 
microcontrollers are up to the task.  The current design is for 5MHz 
data clocks (standard MFM); maybe RLL (7.5MHz) later.

--Chuck



From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 26 12:12:12 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 10:12:12 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4FE9ED6C.6030001@bitsavers.org>

On 6/26/12 9:49 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:

>    I would think that a bit of analog hardware could generate the signals
> to mimic flux transitions.

Read write are differential TTL levels, MFM or RLL encoded. Clock recovery
on read generally uses a PLL.

National app note

AN-0413_Disk_Interface_Design_Guide_and_Users_Manual_Jan86

gives a decent overview of the different drive interfaces circa 1986.

AN-0414_Precautions_for_Disk_Data_Separator_PLL_Designs_Feb86
AN-0581_Application_Issues_for_the_DP8465_Family_of_Data_Synchronizers_Jan89
AN-0494_Designing_with_the_DP8462.pdf
AN-0500_Designing_an_ESDI_Disk_Controller_Subsystem_with_Nationals_DP8466A_Nov87.pdf
AN-0415_Designing_with_the_DP8461_Apr85.pdf
AN-0501_Interfacing_Nationals_DP8466A_to_the_SMD_Interface_Standard_Mar87.pdf

are also of interest



From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 26 12:13:13 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 10:13:13 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE98A2B.32037.365A7D@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE9E204.5020700@neurotica.com>,
 <4FE9E6B5.8070103@bitsavers.org> <4FE98A2B.32037.365A7D@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FE9EDA9.1060609@bitsavers.org>

On 6/26/12 10:08 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 26 Jun 2012 at 9:43, Al Kossow wrote:
>
>> Seagate half height 5" is well past its use by date. These are really
>> needed for 8" Quantum 20x0 replacements. Q2080's were marginal 15
>> years ago. I don't think I have any that are left working in my Xerox
>> 8010s.
>
> I'm prototyping an MFM drive eliminator as we speak.  It takes quite
> a bit more horsepower than a floppy simulator--but modern
> microcontrollers are up to the task.  The current design is for 5MHz
> data clocks (standard MFM); maybe RLL (7.5MHz) later.
>

That's good to hear. I wasn't going to have any cycles to look at this
until fall.



From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 12:23:15 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:23:15 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE7OWFGKr3pER9wMD2Kbv26v_F04pidRdob2eGbv9nmfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 June 2012 17:49, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
>
> ?About the Raspberry Pi in particular...I'm having a very hard time
> getting excited about it. ?It's a neat board, to be sure, but it's only
> the twentieth or thirtieth design just like it (and nobody got this
> excited about its predecessors), and you can't actually GET one without
> spending months on end on a waiting list.

I am a bit surprised by the sheer level of hype myself, but I think
the extreme cheapness is what is driving people. This might be harder
to understand in America, where even in bad times, you guys typically
have lots more disposable income than we do - and many things are much
cheaper. Now, granted, I haven't been to the States in a decade, but
in the late '90s/early noughties, a pair of brand-name jeans was a
third to a half the price in the US. No-brand sneakers were a tenth of
the price over there. Your petrol is about a on fifth to one quarter
of the price of ours or even less. Computer hardware prices are
converted from $ to ? by changing the sign, so computers and software
tend to cost around a quarter to a third more over there than there.
And so on.

The idea of a complete functioning RISC computer, all of whose
software is free, for ?30 including tax, is proving very enticing to
people here. It's not very powerful, but then, it also doesn't take
much power, so people are using them for media servers, digital
signage, monitoring and control.

Yes, an electronics hobbyist could do much of this with an Arduino,
but that needs a quite high level of skill and knowledge. More than I
have, for instance. On an R?, it's a Linux machine with a graphical
desktop; you can just write something in Perl or Python or a shell
script or even BASIC and have it work. No need to learn new languages
or anything.

For many people, over here, devices costing ?150, such as a
Beagleboard, are too expensive to buy for curiosity or as a toy. An R?
is the price of a good meal with a beer; that is disposable income for
a lot of people, whereas a Beagleboard or a Pandaboard is the cost of
a cheap weekend family vacation.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Jun 26 09:13:16 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 07:13:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206260710330.5652@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 26 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:

>  About the Raspberry Pi in particular...I'm having a very hard time
> getting excited about it.  It's a neat board, to be sure, but it's only
> the twentieth or thirtieth design just like it (and nobody got this
> excited about its predecessors), and you can't actually GET one without
> spending months on end on a waiting list.
>
Where exactly can I find those 20 or 30 designs?  I've yet to see anything 
that comes close to what the R-Pi can do for the price they're at.

The wait times should be pretty short right now - mine took 3 weeks to get 
here once I placed my order through RS (Allied).  They'll decrease further 
as production rises to meet the demand.

g.



-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 26 12:37:21 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 10:37:21 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4FE990E1.15558.5090B1@cclist.sydex.com>

On 26 Jun 2012 at 12:49, Dave McGuire wrote:

>   I would think that a bit of analog hardware could generate the
>   signals to mimic flux transitions.  At that point, the microcontroller's only
> high-speed-requiring job would be generating the encoding, which isn't
> tough for a fast one.

No analog needed at all (at least not in the pure sense)--the signals 
are RS422-differential type that requires some transceivers not 
usually part of a modern microcontroller.  The control signals are OC 
TTL levels, just like a floppy.

Using an 8MHz AVR to generate floppy MFM worked just fine, so an 
80MHz PIC32 or ARM should be up to the job--I'm using the former, 
simply because it's a bit easier.

--Chuck




From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 26 13:55:28 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 11:55:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 1951? IBM Typewriter
Message-ID: <1340736928.1357.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I have one. Pretty good relative condition overall. When I plugged it in oh 3 years ago, it actually *typed*, albeit very veeeeeery sloooooooow.

50$. From 07731. About 40 lbs. packed. Pictures upon request.


From dm561 at torfree.net  Tue Jun 26 14:19:27 2012
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 15:19:27 -0400
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
References: <mailman.1.1340730000.90657.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <9CF9137CE7F545A8B5879C7210405BAA@vl420mt>

----- Original Message:
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 09:22:01 -0400
From: David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com>

On Jun 26, 2012, at 5:43 AM, David Brownlee wrote:

>> Does anyone know of any adaptors to fit a "modern" drive (be it IDE,
>> SCSI, ATA, CompactFlash etc) into a machine with an ST-506/412 interface?

> That... would be quite the task.  The ST-506 and cousins directly output
> the raw flux transitions as their data, so you'd need an emulator which
> spit out the data as repeated cylinders, I believe. Trying to interpret
> incoming data as low-level formatting would be another matter entirely.
> You'd probably be better off emulating the interface to the drives (e.g.
> emulate an MFM controller).

-------- Reply:

The main problem I see is that while the ST506/412 interface is standard,
there are quite a few different interfaces between an MFM controller and
the various systems (S100, DEC, PC etc.) and there are probably as many
different formats as there are controllers, so you'd have to emulate quite
a few different controllers.

But I've always wondered (and this may be a silly question): if a controller
in a 4.7MHz PC can handle the data flow, why would it be so difficult to
basically just connect another (pseudo-)HDC to the target HDC instead
of a drive, i.e. effectively connecting two HDCs together back to back?

Host MFM HDC
 ||  ||
Data/Control bus
 ||  ||
'Reverse' MFM pseudo-HDC & uC
 |||||||
ATA bus or equiv.
 |||||||
IDE/CF/etc. drive.

Assuming that the chips are available it doesn't look too difficult to
effectively clone a WD HDC and let it pretend to be a drive.

What's the obvious flaw that I'm missing?



From Arno_1983 at gmx.de  Tue Jun 26 15:04:41 2012
From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 22:04:41 +0200
Subject: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II)
Message-ID: <20120626200441.94140@gmx.net>

ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
> When wa this made. There weren't many 16 pi nprogrammable parts other 
> htan bbipolar PROMs (which doesn't sound likely here) in the 'classic 
> era'. Of course tere are such parts now. (...)

The installation sticker on top of the case mentions it was set up in 1993. If Wikipedia is to be believed (I know there are mixed opinions about that here, no combustion demonstrations required...), the first standalone PICs (just as an example what could have been used in this place) came about soon after General Instrument's microelectronic division was sold out to Microchip in 1989.

> Have you treid looking for a service manual for the camera on the web? 
> Some Niko ncamera man aulas are there. THe 'electronic' one I looked at 
> (F3) didn't include full schematcs, but it did have a wiring diagram and 
> soem theory of operation. It's a possible source of information.

The additional board was, according to its silkscreen print, made not by Nikon but by Agfa. It says "AGFA MATRIX DIV 22-23-14180 REV.A" on it. I would not expect to find information about the modification an a Nikon manual, but one might of course look there for the signals one would have to tap when refitting a standard body.

> There was a motordrive for the Nikon F, but it is very dififcult to find. 
> And it requires a diffenrt base casting under the shutter to pring out 
> various cotnrol levers to the motordrive (to indicate, for example, when 
> the shutter has copmpleted its open/close operation). That part is ever 
> harder to find.

WP knowledge says the base has to be replaced (which is a matter of just a few screws), then the body/motor combination requires a trip to the specialist for some kind of mechanical adjustment. 
 
jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> The motorized F body is the F-36. (...) Does look like the F approach 
> would be in the 200 dollar range minimum maybe 400 if you really don't 
> want to hunt for a long time (assuming you have the body).

Oh, that's not the direction I was heading :) I was merely tipping my hat to DrARDs opto-electro-mechanical skills in suggesting he'd surely find a way to convert his camera if he wanted to.

On the one hand, I was looking for an AGFA camera module, as they were sold, for the reason of originality - in case somebody has one sitting on the shelf and gathering dust.

OTOH if I have to manufacture a replacement, I'll be looking for the simplest solution possible. I don't get why they used a very sophisticated SLR body with exposure control and shutter times down to 1/2000s anyway in an application where none of that is of any use (there is no continuously visible image - which renders the viewfinder useless and would also wreak havoc on automatic exposure control - and image recording times in minutes require the "bulb" setting only). One would think there must be special camera bodys which accomplish advancing the film, opening a shutter as long as a signal is active, and not much else...

> [Probably macro or enlarger lens configuration]
Thanks for that hint, too. I will be back when I can measure the object distance to the mounting interface, but I don't think it is shorter than the image plane distance, so a close-up lens would be what's asked for rather than an inverted standard or enlarger one.

Arno


-- 
Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de


From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun 26 15:42:31 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 14:42:31 -0600
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE9ED6C.6030001@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FE9ED6C.6030001@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <E1Sjcal-0004ez-S4@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FE9ED6C.6030001 at bitsavers.org>,
    Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> writes:

> On 6/26/12 9:49 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> 
> >    I would think that a bit of analog hardware could generate the signals
> > to mimic flux transitions.
> 
> Read write are differential TTL levels, MFM or RLL encoded. Clock recovery
> on read generally uses a PLL.
> 
> National app note
> 
> AN-0413_Disk_Interface_Design_Guide_and_Users_Manual_Jan86
> 
> gives a decent overview of the different drive interfaces circa 1986.
> 
> AN-0414_Precautions_for_Disk_Data_Separator_PLL_Designs_Feb86
> AN-0581_Application_Issues_for_the_DP8465_Family_of_Data_Synchronizers_Jan89
> AN-0494_Designing_with_the_DP8462.pdf
> AN-0500_Designing_an_ESDI_Disk_Controller_Subsystem_with_Nationals_DP8466A_No
v87.pdf
> AN-0415_Designing_with_the_DP8461_Apr85.pdf
> AN-0501_Interfacing_Nationals_DP8466A_to_the_SMD_Interface_Standard_Mar87.pdf
> 
> are also of interest

Are these app notes online?  Every time I search for data sheets
online, I just get lost in a rathole of spamhauses.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 15:44:14 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 16:44:14 -0400
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE990E1.15558.5090B1@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FE990E1.15558.5090B1@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <F4C5FF9D-AD4E-41D0-9592-2A3CA55ED0A2@gmail.com>

On Jun 26, 2012, at 1:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 26 Jun 2012 at 12:49, Dave McGuire wrote:
> 
>>  I would think that a bit of analog hardware could generate the
>>  signals to mimic flux transitions.  At that point, the microcontroller's only
>> high-speed-requiring job would be generating the encoding, which isn't
>> tough for a fast one.
> 
> No analog needed at all (at least not in the pure sense)--the signals 
> are RS422-differential type that requires some transceivers not 
> usually part of a modern microcontroller.  The control signals are OC 
> TTL levels, just like a floppy.
> 
> Using an 8MHz AVR to generate floppy MFM worked just fine, so an 
> 80MHz PIC32 or ARM should be up to the job--I'm using the former, 
> simply because it's a bit easier.

I might think a PIC32 would be a bit more efficient (depending on the
ARM used); don't most MIPS architectures have a bit more horespower
than most ARM architectures?  Mileage may vary, of course.

In any case, having thought on it a bit, it would probably be fairly
simple to do the actual data streaming with a very cheap FPGA (you
don't need much onboard RAM to store a ring buffer of bits for the
current cylinder) and a tiny micro for housekeeping and loading
data between FPGA and bulk storage.  Store a cylinder back in when
the step command comes, perhaps?

With such a setup, you could get away with a very low-performance
micro.  The FPGA would likely run about $15 in single quantities.

If anyone is interested in working on such a solution, I may have
time to dedicate to it soon, but I have no hardware which talks
MFM or RLL, nor working drives to compare to.  Still, one can do
lots without the actual devices.


- Dave






From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 15:53:20 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 16:53:20 -0400
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE7OWFGKr3pER9wMD2Kbv26v_F04pidRdob2eGbv9nmfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCE7OWFGKr3pER9wMD2Kbv26v_F04pidRdob2eGbv9nmfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnTMC5tGojV5DmbFiOw7KTePNFJDS6Sy81gLxrxuZvSRw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 26 June 2012 17:49, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?About the Raspberry Pi in particular...I'm having a very hard time
>> getting excited about it. ?It's a neat board, to be sure, but it's only
>> the twentieth or thirtieth design just like it (and nobody got this
>> excited about its predecessors), and you can't actually GET one without
>> spending months on end on a waiting list.

I have yet to put myself on such a list because I hate the waiting game.

I do plan to play with them once I can actually *purchase* one without
fiddling about.

> I am a bit surprised by the sheer level of hype myself, but I think
> the extreme cheapness is what is driving people. This might be harder
> to understand in America, where even in bad times, you guys typically
> have lots more disposable income than we do...

At $25 for no Ethernet or $35 with Ethernet, the price-point is so low
that it doesn't take a lot of effort to talk oneself into it, nor does
one feel bad about ordering one "just in case" a great idea comes
along.

When a ready-to-use computing element costs less than a good steak
dinner, it's easy to buy one for frivolous reasons.  At twice or
three-times the cost, I think it's "expensive enough" to have to have
a "good reason".

> The idea of a complete functioning RISC computer, all of whose
> software is free, for ?30 including tax, is proving very enticing to
> people here. It's not very powerful, but then, it also doesn't take
> much power, so people are using them for media servers, digital
> signage, monitoring and control.

I certainly hope to put one to use for digital signage.  I see that
most of Xibo has been ported to the Raspberry Pi, but it's not quite
there yet.  I'm still fiddling with 1.0+ GHz boxes with a gig of RAM
to get the Ubuntu/Python Xibo client working for technology
conventions I work at.  I'd *love* to be able to velcro a RP to the
back of an LCD and just walk into a hall, hang the LCD on a visible
wall, then punch the power button and walk away.  Not there yet, but
the goal is in sight.

> For many people, over here, devices costing ?150, such as a
> Beagleboard, are too expensive to buy for curiosity or as a toy. An R?
> is the price of a good meal with a beer; that is disposable income for
> a lot of people, whereas a Beagleboard or a Pandaboard is the cost of
> a cheap weekend family vacation.

Agreed, even here.  I haven't gotten into the Beagleboards because
they are above my "curiosity" threshold, but I've done a few projects
with Arduino because I can roll a finished version on a perfboard or a
$3 blank DIY Arduino clone PCB by adding a $3.25 MCU and a handful of
cheap parts and by the time I'm done, I've spent less than $10 adding
smarts to a project (though I do have one where I repurposed a spare
Gen3 MakerBot extruder controller because it had three 12V MOSFETs
with screw terminals - it made driving an RGB LED strip a matter of
"screw down 4 wires and write 5 lines of code".  The hardest part of
the project was cutting an Ethernet cable in half to feed power to it
via its 8p8c (RJ45) jack).  I still plan to play with the Raspberry
Pi, but it's IMO a better wee desktop than a physical computing
platform precisely because it only has 3.3v current-limited I/O that
require external components to do anything with.

-ethan

> --
> Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
>



From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 16:02:45 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 23:02:45 +0200
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <E1Sjcal-0004ez-S4@shell.xmission.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FE9ED6C.6030001@bitsavers.org>
 <E1Sjcal-0004ez-S4@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <377EDB87-5D5A-4FA0-BE21-DA63D242AEB1@gmail.com>

On 26 jun. 2012, at 22:42, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:

> 
> In article <4FE9ED6C.6030001 at bitsavers.org>,
>    Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> writes:
>> 
>> Read write are differential TTL levels, MFM or RLL encoded. Clock recovery
>> on read generally uses a PLL.
>> 
>> National app note
>> 
>> AN-0413_Disk_Interface_Design_Guide_and_Users_Manual_Jan86
>> 
>> gives a decent overview of the different drive interfaces circa 1986.
>> 
>> AN-0414_Precautions_for_Disk_Data_Separator_PLL_Designs_Feb86
>> AN-0581_Application_Issues_for_the_DP8465_Family_of_Data_Synchronizers_Jan89
>> AN-0494_Designing_with_the_DP8462.pdf
>> AN-0500_Designing_an_ESDI_Disk_Controller_Subsystem_with_Nationals_DP8466A_No
> v87.pdf
>> AN-0415_Designing_with_the_DP8461_Apr85.pdf
>> AN-0501_Interfacing_Nationals_DP8466A_to_the_SMD_Interface_Standard_Mar87.pdf
>> 
>> are also of interest
> 
> Are these app notes online?  Every time I search for data sheets
> online, I just get lost in a rathole of spamhauses.

I'd like to know as well. Started searching for this but didn't find the '86 version, only newer at National's website.

re,

Sander


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 26 14:43:47 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:43:47 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Polaroid Film Recorder (was Re: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II))
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimn2mzUJe3Gid0f=bpspKS5Qo1e30km45D3h=wKzqUrO9g@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 25, 12 04:39:54 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sjbg1-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> 
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > I might be able to help, though. I have a 'Polaroid Videopritner 4', for
> > all Polaroid assured me they had never made such a beast... This is
> > similar, but lower-reulotuon device, it displys TV-rate video on an
> > internal CRT and photographs it.
> >
> > There's a colour fitler wheel (red, green, blue and a hole) so it cna
> > print a colour inamge in 3 goes.
> 
> I have a similar device - two actually.  The first one I got for free
> or nearly free, with a Polaroid camera, and no control panel.  The
> second cost under $100 and had the control panel and a 35mm camera, so
> between the two, I have one useful unit.  The Polaroid film in

I would have thoguth the second one, as is, sounds more useful. 35mm film 
is still very easy to get.

> question was sold for medical uses, so was quite expensive even 20
> years ago when one could buy it off the shelf ($50-$70 per cassette, I
> was told).

That I can ewell believe. Now, of course, it;s no longer made AFAIK and 
you have ot hope a pack turns up somewhere...

> 
> Like your "Videoprinter 4", mine has a mono CRT and a color wheel.
> AFAIK, it does *4* exposures - R, G, B, and "contrast" (no filter).
> It takes in an EGA signal or NTSC video, and has onboard memory for
> frame capture of live video.  I've done some sample image grabbing

AFAIK mine only does NTSC-rate video (OK, for the pedants, RS170 rate 
video), there is certainly no itnernal framestore. It's been a long time 
since I've been inside, and I don;t think I've had it working yet, but 
from what I remembr there was what looked to be a convetnional monochrome 
monitor PCB in there linked to a CRT. Like your unit there's a disk with 
4 filters (one clear, maybe just a hole) and a stepper motor to move 
them. There is some kind of control board, I seem to remember it's 
microprocessor based,. maybe even an 8080. And not much more. I don;t 
rememebr there being an internal NTSC or PAL colour decoder. 

Is the 35mm camera in your unit a standard camwera body? If so, what? 

Mine came wit hthe official SX70 camera. This fits on the front of the 
unit, and is held on by 2 captive thunmbscrwes. There's a DE9 conneccto 
too, there's a plug wired to 2 pins of this which plugs into the Polaroid 
back, shorting thos pins causes the back to eject the current print and 
start developing i nthe nromal way. It uses the battery in the filmpack 
to power this. As I mentioned, the optics is a standard, and not very 
good (Soligor, I think) enlarger lese. It's essentially fixed focus (well 
evetyhing is at a fixed distance, so that's OK), it's fitted to a meatl 
tuve which slites into the camera body and is lcoked by a setscrew. 
Presumably you  can focus it if necessary when you repari the unit.

I also got what looks ot be a home-made bracket with it. 'Home made' 
meaning not a Polaroid product, I suecpt it was made in the workshops of 
the university I got this thing from. This fits in place of the Polaroid 
camera. It looks like it would have held a35mm SLR + motordrive, again 
there's a DE9 plug that conencts to th Videoprinter, it's wired ot a 
strange 3 pin socet about 7mm in diamater. The outer shell of this might 
be missing. It looks a bit like a Lemo connector, but it isn't, if you 
see what I eman. I've not identified what camera/motordrive that would 
conenctor to.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 26 14:49:53 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:49:53 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <20120625141149.W65869@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 25,
 12 02:18:47 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sjblv-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

> > However, there is a case to be made, I think, for buying the few tools
> > you need -- and getting high quality ones -- rather than buying a large
> > set of cheap tools.
> > FOr example, you mentioned taps. I tend to buy only the sizes I need, anf
> > get good ones, rathen than buyign one of the cheap imported srts with
> > plenty of sizes I don;'t need and made from 'steel' that appears to
> > actually be cheese...
> 
> In my case, there were too many situations where slightly obscure sizes
> were needed (foreign cars), so my approach was a complete set of crap PLUS

Thatre's nothing more frustrating than being part way through a job and 
having the tool fail on you ;-)

> good quality for all the ones used regularly.  'Course it DID get me an

What I did was to buy a small, good quality, set of the tools I knew I'd 
need. And then buy special extras as needed. Nut just the ones I need.

For example, when I was repairing the steering rack on my father's car 
last year I needed a crowfoot wrench. Those things are not easy to find, 
and good ones are expensive (I think about \pounds 50.00 _each_. So I 
measured the size I needed and bought jsut that one. 

I the same way, for most comptuer repairs I use nutdrivers to turn hex 
nuts and bolts. But when working on the HP9800 machines, you need an 
11/32" open-ended spanner to get the rear panel (carries the mains 
transofrmer, etc) out. That's not a common size here. I jsut bought that 
one spanner. 
[...]

> > > People like us aren't going to stick with a rigid structure.  By high
> > > school, my projects were becoming orthogonal to my teachers' lesson plans.
> > You and I have a lot in common...
> 
> It's hard to create rigid lesson plans for "independent" students!  When I

One of my hobbies at school was driving teachers mad. Not in the way that 
most kids do it now, by taliking on cellular telewphones, starting 
fights, etc. But by asking very complex questions on the subject of the 
lesson. Of course they could take no real action against me for that, I 
was simply trying to learn the subject (which, actually, was very true). 

> was teaching programming, I learned that with SOME students, the best
> thing that I could do was point a direction and get out of the way.

A couple of teachers foudn that to be a good idea with me. Give me access 
to the aparatus and let me think up experiments.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 26 14:50:58 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:50:58 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <20120625142130.T65869@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 25,
 12 02:23:21 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sjbmy-000J4cC@p850ug1>

> "If you build a man a fire, he will be warm for the night;
> set him on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."

The second being shorter than the first :-)

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 26 14:32:17 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:32:17 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206251137490.32611@grumble.deltasoft.com> from
 "Gene Buckle" at Jun 25, 12 11:38:38 am
Message-ID: <m1SjbUs-000J4WC@p850ug1>

> Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day.  Teach a man to fish and he's 
> all, "Bitch, where's my fish?!"

That one is all too true when it comes to answering questions on fixing 
vintage computers.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 26 15:10:33 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 21:10:33 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <20120625134719.L65869@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 25,
 12 02:25:14 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sjc5v-000J4dC@p850ug1>

> 
> > > Nor mine.  For that matter, Tony won't like my answers, either :-)
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
> > Since you posted them publically, I think it is reasonable for me to
> > reply to them, whether you like it or not :-).
> 
> I like it very much!
> I was thinking about you with every sentence of my post.  I was hoping
> that you would join in, fully knowing that we would not agree on the
> "cheap tools" aspect.

AS I think I said, there is no real 'right' or 'wrong' way to look at 
this. There are many people here who do design, constrruction, reparis, 
etc. And we all do it differnetly. All each of us can say is waht works 
for us. Anyone else can read what we're all saying and decide which bits 
they like.

> A few days ago, a friend was repairing a hot-tub (spa) controller.  He was
> pretty sure that he had 220V, but the cheap meter said 0.  Then the probe

The correct procedure, I beleive, is to measurew a known live point, then 
to measure the point you want to work on, then to measuer the live point 
again. Only if all 3 readings are as you expect do you start work. Even 
that's not infallable, but it's better than assuming the meter is OK.

A firend of mine has a voltmeter for checking 11kV (andn maybe 33kV) 
overhead lines. In the carrying case is a little EHT PSU (perahps about 
10kV), powered by batteries. The proedure is to measrue that, then the 
line, then the test PSU again. 

> fell off of the end of its wire - so THAT'S why it read 0.   A meter, good
> or bad, can not be a substitute for common sense.

That is very true...

> 
> 
> > You are skipping over something vert important here.
> More than a few things!  I only intended it as a framework, to be expanded
> into a more thorough introduction to how to get started.

The whole issue of 'ground' or a common voltage reference point is a lot 
more complex than it first appears. Don Vonada said 'There is no such 
thing as ground' :-)_

To me that statement has 2 meanings. 

The first is that you can take any point you like as your reference to 
measure votlages with repsect to. In some systems it makes sense to take 
different reference points for differnet parts of the circuit, the 
obvious common example being an SMPSU where you would take the so-called 
0V output terminal as nthe reference for votlages on the output side of 
hte isolation barrier but the -ve side of the maisn smoothing capacitor 
for votlage aroudn the chopper on the maisn side of hte isolation 
barrier. Be careful that in the latter case there is a considerable 
voltage between that refernece point and mains earth amd you can't 
connect (most) 'scopes directly yo it.

The second meaning is more subtle. It's the fact that any connection -- 
any bit of wire, PCB track, etc has impedance. At high frequencies the 
inductance of a bit of wire becomes imporatnet. So you might have 2 
poitns that appear to be connected together by a nice, solid, PCB track 
and still find a ripple on one wrt the other. Ths 'groudn bounce' is a 
particular provlem with high-speed digital electroncis.

> 
> 
> > Multimeters, and
> > voltmeters in genral, have 2 leads. The poiunt is that it makes no real
> > sense ot say 'the votlage here is 5V'. What you mean is 'the voltage here
> > is 5V _with respect to this point which I am calling ground'. Knowing
> > what point to take as the common 'ground' is often not obvious when you
> > are startign out.
> 
> I did mention that (in the next step), but these instructions need a LOT
> more detail!

Sure, I was just trying to provide some.

> 
> > My list of simple hand tools for ocmputer repair is quite long, and to be
> > fair you problaby don't need all of them. But I find I need screwdrives
> > from 1mm to about 8mm, Phillips and Pozidriv ones too. And Allen hex
> > tools, torx drivers, nutdrivers, etc. In some cases it does depend on
> > what you are sorkign on. If you stick to C64s, you will not need Bristol
> > Spline tools. If yoyu work on Flexowriters, or even IBM 5155s, you do.
> 
> I think that a set of screwdriver bits is a good start there.  There are
> better screwdrivers than the bit holders, BUT, that could encourage using
> the wrong size when a simple bit change (with a larger selection) could
> have been done.  My father understood the difference between "plain" and

Covnersely, having dedicated screwdrives for the common sixes can 
encourage you to just pick up the right tool, whereas picking out the 
corret insert bit and putting it in the holder is more work and you mare 
feel 'Aarn it, I'll use this little flat balde scrrewdriver jamped across 
the slot to get this Phillips screw out'.

I have a mixtrue of dedicated screewdrivs fro common things (flatblade, 
Phillips, Pozidriv) and interchangable blades or bits for things like 
Allen hex and all the security screws. 

[...]
> > > STEP SEVEN:
> > > Get all of the technical documents for all of the machines that you want
> > > to work on, or are even just curious about
> > Easier said than done in soem cases :-).
> 
> a career of its own!

Im my case, yes :-)

> 
> > I think one thing that Fred and I agree on (from reading this ) is that
> > there is no short-cut to being able to repair computers. You _do_ need
> > to learn to use tools,. you do need ot learn how things should work, you
> > do need to learn basic (and more) electronics.
> 
> > Sure there are 'stock fault lists'. Thigns that tell you that if it
> > starts up with this sort of image on the monitor then you need ot change
> > that chip. 99% of the time they're rignt./ 1% of the time they are not.
> > And at that point, if all you have is the stock fault lsit, you are stuck.
> 
> They're great for "probabilistically" suggesting where to START looking,

Of course. If you know that 99% of the time the fault you're seing is 
caused by a particular component, you do start by checking that :-). But 
as they don't work _all_ the time, I prefer to teach people the 
absolutely genral methods of logically tracing faults. When you can do 
that, you know enouyh to find the stock fault lists, and waht to do when 
they don't help.

> but one still needs to master the tool usage, AND understand enough theory
> to be able to confirm the suggested diagnosis.

Sure. AS I said in my very first mesage, in all fault repair (this 
doesn't just apply to computers, or even to electroics, IMHO it also 
applies to things like medicine), there are 2 distinct stages : 

1) Finding the fualt -- how to make and interpret measurements, etc

2) Putting it right -- using the tools to replace the faulty component.

You will ahve to learn how to do both. 

> 
> > But if you are doing it for yourself, if you want ot fix that machine no
> > matter what, then you have to learn the 'real' methods of fault
> > diagnosis.
> There is no substitute for learning logical processes

It's a great pity that this sort of thing is rarely taught any more. I 
meet very few people who can get a set of facts and reason logically from 
them.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 26 15:12:28 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 21:12:28 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Disk II cases
In-Reply-To: <20120625142622.O65869@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 25,
 12 02:27:28 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sjc7m-000J4eC@p850ug1>

> The drive housings (all external) for TRS80 model 1 will handle long
> drives.  Many of the after-market ones are not worthy of preservation.
> 

I've seen several 2-drive boxes with built-in PSUs. There were random 3rd 
party ones for the BBC micro which might not be worth preserving, and I 
also have one for the Sharp MZ80B and and one for the Zneith Z90 (and I 
asusme the related Heathkit machines) which prsuambly are.

If you come across generic thigns like that, they might be suitable cases 
too.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 26 15:43:05 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 21:43:05 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <201206260100.VAA00624@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Jun 25, 12 09:00:36 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjcbP-000J4iC@p850ug1>

> 
> >> Buy some kits and assemble them.  Now get them to WORK.
> > Kits are great at teaching you to solder, to identify compoennts and
> > to put things together.  They are less good at teaching electronics.
> 
> Depends on the kit.  The one kit I built included a schematic, a block
> diagram, and a reasonably detailed theory-of-operation section.
> 
> Of course, that _was_ some 35 years ago.

It still does depend on the kit. I came acors san American company who 
still seem to sell kits with exceellent manuals in the style of the old 
Heathkits. I'll try t orememebr the name. Alas the kits are not gernally 
available over here.

The common kits in the UK are Velleman. With those you genreally get a 
shcmeaitc. The instructions, though, anre jsut 'fit these components in 
this order'. Axial-leaded components are suppleid on the bandolier strips 
in the orider you fit them, which rather takes the fun out of it :-) No 
theroy of operation, genraslly. 

Maplin also do a few of their own kits and those have terrible 
instrucitons. Just a parts list and a PCB layout. No schrmatic, no 
theory.  With on of them I had to puzzle for a bit on how to put it 
together, and I am hardly a newbie...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 26 15:26:46 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 21:26:46 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <4FE8E317.3070009@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Jun 25,
 12 04:15:51 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjcLb-000J4gC@p850ug1>

> The problem with beginners book is that they thing the beginner is *Stupid*.

It is a common mistake to confuse ignroance with stupidity.

TO be, 'stupidity' really means the inability to reason. Ignorance means 
not knowing soemthing. For example, I am (very) ignorant on medical 
matters, but if a docotr says to me that the food passes through here, 
it's digested by enzymes here, etc, then I can follow it. Ignoranat, but 
not IMHO stupid.

Same with computer repair. There's a big diffence between not being able 
to reason at all, and not knowing any electronics. 

> I want them *simple*, that deal with the real world. I am using a FW bridge,
> what is the parameters again for output voltage. Ahh see page 45. table #2.

It depenmds on the filter circuit :-). Seriously. It;s roughly the peak 
votlage fro a capacitor input filter, the mean of the absolute value of 
the waveform for a choke input filter. The Radiotron Designers Handbook 
is quite good for thigns like this. 

But yes, I see what you mean. Hwoever, I'd prefer a book that explaiend 
_why_ the voltages are what they are. That way, if you get a cirucit 
that's not in the book you know how to woek it out.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 26 15:38:12 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 21:38:12 +0100 (BST)
Subject: BEGINNER getting started (Was: Diagnosing and Reparing Commo
In-Reply-To: <01OH4ANW98BC000XSR@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Jun
 26, 12 00:13:55 am
Message-ID: <m1SjcWg-000J4hC@p850ug1>

> 
> >
> >And that is soemthing else to be careful about. A friend of mine was 
> >nearely killed by a cheap mete. He measured the voltage of a maisn 
> >socket, it showed 240V or so, so the meter was working/ He flipped the 
> >breaker for what he thought was the right circuit, then measured the 
> >voltage again. 0 or so. So he thought he had isoalted the circuit and 
> >started to remove the socket. Alas the meter had taken that momemnt to 
> >fail (range swithc trouble I think) and he's flipped the wrong breaker. 
> >Result : He got the mains across him. Second result, he bought a good meter.
> >
> 
> I can't agree with this. He was not nearly killed by a cheap meter. He was

Yes, I agre with you. As I said in another message, the 'correct' way is 
to measure a known live poitn, then the point you hope is dead, then the 
live point again. Only if all readings are as you excpect do you 
continue. Things can still go wrong, but at least it avoids the common 
problem like an open-circjuit test lead or a flat battery in the DMM. 

> nearly killed because he did not appreciate what could go wrong. While it is
> less likely to fail, a good meter can still fail. Also, if (for example) the
> building was wired badly and the breaker opened the neutral, he could still
> have been in trouble, even with a good meter that was working properly.

Do a live point to local groudn test? I would.

> 
> I prefer to use a neon tester for this sort of job. It doesn't need a
> functional neutral or ground in order to operate and there is less to go wrong

Well, actually,m it requires the end cap to be grounds via the user, 
capacitive coupling is not enough most of the time. If you forget to 
toucvh the end, or if you're not earhted yourself, it can give misleading 
results. Yes, I use them, but again, you need to know what you are doing.

As I mentioend soem time back, one common use of these back in the days 
of live-chassis radios and TVs was to see if the chassis was indeed live 
(if som turn the plug round).. A not-funny 'joke' which could have 
serious consequences was to tel lthe newbie that if he took the tester 
apart and turned the neonround, it would then light on a dead chassis.

> than a meter. However, it can still go wrong and should be tested on a live
> point before and after using it to identify that a circuit has been powered
> off and lighting conditions must be such that the glow can be seen.
> 
> Having verified that the power is off by whatever method (and made sure someone
> else could not inadvertently switch it back on), continue to take care. Do not

That is one advantage of removable fuse carries as against MCBs. You cna 
remvoe the fuse and pop it in your pocket. It's a lot harder fro somevody 
to find and fit a replacement fus than to accidnetally fip an MCB.

> dive in and grab a conductor in each hand. It is often possible to treat the 
> circuit as if it is still live - use insulated tools, don't touch any bare

AS ever, 'all wires are live until you have proved them not to be'.

> conductors and don't let any bare conductors touch each other or anything
> else conductive. If it is necessary to touch a conductor, I would suggest first
> brushing it with the back of a finger after ensuring there are no paths
> to ground through the the other hand in particular or any other body parts in
> general. Think about using a different method if you are on a high ladder.

Work one-naded if at all possible. You might also consider disconencting 
the wires back at the consumer unit (fuse box) -- live and neutral -- so 
there's no way the cirucit can be energised again. And check -- again -- 
you have the right wires disconencted. 

> 
> Don't believe that using a good meter or a good anything else is all you need
> to keep safe. Whatever you use, think about what could go wrong.

Indeed. 

> 
> (If you decide to use a neon tester, make sure it is a mains rated neon tester
>  and not an very similar looking instrument containing a low voltage filament
>  bulb intended for automotive testing!)

Well, that's not a neon tester ;-). More seriously, yes. Do make sure you 
are using the right tools and test gear, particualrly on mains and other 
high-voltage circuits. It takes al ot less time to check than for your 
realtives to ahve to rganise your funeral!

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Jun 26 16:37:00 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 22:37:00 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II)
In-Reply-To: <20120626200441.94140@gmx.net> from "Arno Kletzander" at Jun 26,
 12 10:04:41 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjdRa-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> > Have you treid looking for a service manual for the camera on the web? 
> > Some Niko ncamera man aulas are there. THe 'electronic' one I looked at 
> > (F3) didn't include full schematcs, but it did have a wiring diagram and 
> > soem theory of operation. It's a possible source of information.
> 
> The additional board was, according to its silkscreen print, made not 
> by Nikon but by Agfa. It says "AGFA MATRIX DIV 22-23-14180 REV.A" on it. 

Right. I wonder why Agfa used a Nikon camera. After all, Agfa madee 
cameras of their own, some quite respectable.

> I would not expect to find information about the modification an a Nikon 
> manual, but one might of course look there for the signals one would 
> have to tap when refitting a standard body. 

That was my idea. If you could work out wha the file recorder interface 
was, and ahd the description of the wiring in the camera boby, you migth 
be avble to figure out the interfce between them.


> 
> > There was a motordrive for the Nikon F, but it is very dififcult to find. 
> > And it requires a diffenrt base casting under the shutter to pring out 
> > various cotnrol levers to the motordrive (to indicate, for example, when 
> > the shutter has copmpleted its open/close operation). That part is ever 
> > harder to find.
> 
> WP knowledge says the base has to be replaced (which is a matter of 

That is the tirival part if youy can get the replacement base. I've had 
the bottom cover off my Nikon F many times. It's just 4 screws. Nothing 
sprigne out. 

> just a few screws), then the body/motor combination requires a trip to 
> the specialist for some kind of mechanical adjustment. 

EWrr, yes... Or in my case have a go at settign it up myself, Of coruse 
this means finding one first...

>  
> jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> > The motorized F body is the F-36. (...) Does look like the F approach 
> > would be in the 200 dollar range minimum maybe 400 if you really don't 
> > want to hunt for a long time (assuming you have the body).
> 
> Oh, that's not the direction I was heading :) I was merely tipping my 
> hat to DrARDs opto-electro-mechanical skills in suggesting he'd surely 
> find a way to convert his camera if he wanted to. 

Oh, I probably could. Even if it involves an esternal solenoid and a 
cable relase :-)

However, If I was going to do this, I'd not use the Nikon F. I'd go and 
get some mroe recent electorncially-controleld camera with an electrical 
shutter release and built-in notor -- like that F301 that's around here 
somewhere, and use that. 


> 
> OTOH if I have to manufacture a replacement, I'll be looking for the 
> simplest solution possible. I don't get why they used a very 
> sophisticated SLR body with exposure control and shutter times down to 
> 1/2000s anyway in an application where none of that 
> is of any use (there is no continuously visible image - which renders 
> the viewfinder useless and would also wreak havoc on automatic exposure 
> control - and image recording times in minutes require the "bulb" 
> setting only). One would think there must be sp
> ecial camera bodys which accomplish advancing the film, opening a 
> shutter as long as a signal is active, and not much else... 

Err, yes... I think if I was going to make this, I would start wit ha 
dead electronic SLR, though. On the grounds it has interchagealbe lenses, 
a motor to wind the film and solenoids to open/close the shutter. Then 
remove the dead electroncis and make my own cotnrolelr. Whether I'd leave 
the mirror in palce I don;t know, it might be easier to do so if the 
sugger mwchanism depends on it for the corraect sequece.

> 
> > [Probably macro or enlarger lens configuration]
> Thanks for that hint, too. I will be back when I can measure the 
> object distance to the mounting interface, but I don't think it is 
> shorter than the image plane distance, so a close-up lens would be 
> what's asked for rather than an inverted standard or e nlarger one.

Well, an enlarger lens is typically used to enlarge :-). What I mean is 
that the distance from the front to whatever (paper in an enalrger) is 
longer than the distance from the back to whatver (negative in an 
enlrager). So if you put the CRT where the paper would be and the film 
(in the cmaera body) where the negative should be, it'll work and produce 
a reduced image of the CRT on the film.

That sounds like waht yuu want. 

-tony


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Tue Jun 26 16:41:44 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 22:41:44 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <F4C5FF9D-AD4E-41D0-9592-2A3CA55ED0A2@gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FE990E1.15558.5090B1@cclist.sydex.com>
 <F4C5FF9D-AD4E-41D0-9592-2A3CA55ED0A2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00df01cd53e4$7c9cc470$75d64d50$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Riley
> Sent: 26 June 2012 21:44
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
> 
> On Jun 26, 2012, at 1:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> 
> > On 26 Jun 2012 at 12:49, Dave McGuire wrote:
> >
> >>  I would think that a bit of analog hardware could generate the
> >> signals to mimic flux transitions.  At that point, the
> >> microcontroller's only high-speed-requiring job would be generating
> >> the encoding, which isn't tough for a fast one.
> >
> > No analog needed at all (at least not in the pure sense)--the signals
> > are RS422-differential type that requires some transceivers not
> > usually part of a modern microcontroller.  The control signals are OC
> > TTL levels, just like a floppy.
> >
> > Using an 8MHz AVR to generate floppy MFM worked just fine, so an
> 80MHz
> > PIC32 or ARM should be up to the job--I'm using the former, simply
> > because it's a bit easier.
> 
> I might think a PIC32 would be a bit more efficient (depending on the ARM
> used); don't most MIPS architectures have a bit more horespower than most
> ARM architectures?  Mileage may vary, of course.
> 
> In any case, having thought on it a bit, it would probably be fairly
simple to
> do the actual data streaming with a very cheap FPGA (you don't need much
> onboard RAM to store a ring buffer of bits for the current cylinder) and a
tiny
> micro for housekeeping and loading data between FPGA and bulk storage.
> Store a cylinder back in when the step command comes, perhaps?
> 
> With such a setup, you could get away with a very low-performance micro.
> The FPGA would likely run about $15 in single quantities.
> 
> If anyone is interested in working on such a solution, I may have time to
> dedicate to it soon, but I have no hardware which talks MFM or RLL, nor
> working drives to compare to.  Still, one can do lots without the actual
> devices.
> 
> 
> - Dave
> 
> 

This is certainly something I want to do too, it has been on my list for
ages, just not started anything. I don't have enough hardware expertise to
do the hardware interfacing, but keen to learn, and have been wondering how
best to do the software (FPGA - no experience of these yet, Raspberry Pi,
something else). Finding the time is the biggest problem though.

Regards

Rob



From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Jun 26 17:03:25 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 15:03:25 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <E1Sjcal-0004ez-S4@shell.xmission.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FE9ED6C.6030001@bitsavers.org>
 <E1Sjcal-0004ez-S4@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4FEA31AD.9040304@bitsavers.org>

On 6/26/12 1:42 PM, Richard wrote:

> Are these app notes online?

I'm copying what I have to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/national/_appNote



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 26 17:15:28 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 15:15:28 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <F4C5FF9D-AD4E-41D0-9592-2A3CA55ED0A2@gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE990E1.15558.5090B1@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <F4C5FF9D-AD4E-41D0-9592-2A3CA55ED0A2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE9D210.6648.14F301B@cclist.sydex.com>

On 26 Jun 2012 at 16:44, David Riley wrote:

> I might think a PIC32 would be a bit more efficient (depending on the
> ARM used); don't most MIPS architectures have a bit more horespower
> than most ARM architectures?  Mileage may vary, of course.

For me, it's the peripherals.  "framed" SPI essentially gives you bit 
stream capabilities with 32-bit DMA.  The DMA channels also have a 
CRC generator, if needed.  Most inputs are 5V tolerant.  128KB of RAM 
on-chip.

I'm not saying that there isn't an ARM out there with the same 
capabilities, but I haven't seen one myself.

I don't see any issue with making this a software-only.  Use one of 
the SPIs to interface to a SDHC.

Why bother with an FPGA?

--Chuck



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 26 17:16:48 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 15:16:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
In-Reply-To: <20120626141152.M61907@kw.igs.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]>
 <07b101cd5292$837ea3b0$6700a8c0@tababook>
 <20120625113520.G65869@shell.lmi.net>
 <201206260448.q5Q4mPkt063592@billy.ezwind.net>
 <20120626141152.M61907@kw.igs.net>
Message-ID: <1340749008.89654.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

incidentally for those who don't want to patronize Amazon, many or dare I say most of the vendors also have similar eBay IDs. You can often contact them through eBay's system. 


From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Jun 26 17:25:15 2012
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 15:25:15 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <F4C5FF9D-AD4E-41D0-9592-2A3CA55ED0A2@gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FE990E1.15558.5090B1@cclist.sydex.com>
 <F4C5FF9D-AD4E-41D0-9592-2A3CA55ED0A2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEA36CB.9030202@brouhaha.com>

David Riley wrote:
> don't most MIPS architectures have a bit more horespower
> than most ARM architectures?

Not really, no.



From snhirsch at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 18:40:00 2012
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 19:40:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE98A2B.32037.365A7D@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE9E204.5020700@neurotica.com>,
 <4FE9E6B5.8070103@bitsavers.org> <4FE98A2B.32037.365A7D@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206261937490.6326@duo>

On Tue, 26 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 26 Jun 2012 at 9:43, Al Kossow wrote:
>
>> Seagate half height 5" is well past its use by date. These are really
>> needed for 8" Quantum 20x0 replacements. Q2080's were marginal 15
>> years ago. I don't think I have any that are left working in my Xerox
>> 8010s.
>
> I'm prototyping an MFM drive eliminator as we speak.  It takes quite
> a bit more horsepower than a floppy simulator--but modern
> microcontrollers are up to the task.  The current design is for 5MHz
> data clocks (standard MFM); maybe RLL (7.5MHz) later.

Instead of tying in at the MFM signal level, why not replace the drive 
controller chip with something that looks like it at the register level?

Granted it's not a universal solution, but the common WD and NEC 
controllers seem like candidates.

I exchanged e-mail with someone who was thinking in that direction a while 
ago.  Probably time to dig that up.

Steve


-- 



From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 18:55:06 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 00:55:06 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FEA36CB.9030202@brouhaha.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <4FE990E1.15558.5090B1@cclist.sydex.com>
 <F4C5FF9D-AD4E-41D0-9592-2A3CA55ED0A2@gmail.com>
 <4FEA36CB.9030202@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEfuKuwY648=cFMCq-Eom0R8UOHMwY3ryE4NPtpnME1+w@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 June 2012 23:25, Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com> wrote:
> David Riley wrote:
>>
>> don't most MIPS architectures have a bit more horespower
>> than most ARM architectures?
>
> Not really, no.

Since the days of SGI workstations, no, it's been the other way round, I reckon.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 18:56:37 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 00:56:37 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206260710330.5652@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206260710330.5652@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFXz=agGAiQMb2RRyhbda1df6k31MnPAsVO1oUyHG_x3w@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 June 2012 15:13, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>>
> Where exactly can I find those 20 or 30 designs? ?I've yet to see anything
> that comes close to what the R-Pi can do for the price they're at.

If you will forgive the blatant self-promotion:

http://www.reghardware.com/2012/05/10/product_round_up_arm_mini_computers_the_best_and_the_rest/

Since then, this has appeared, too:

http://liliputing.com/2012/05/via-apc-a-49-android-computer-with-an-arm11-cpu.html

http://apc.io/

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 26 19:05:55 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 17:05:55 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206261937490.6326@duo>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE98A2B.32037.365A7D@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206261937490.6326@duo>
Message-ID: <4FE9EBF3.30440.1B450F5@cclist.sydex.com>

On 26 Jun 2012 at 19:40, Steven Hirsch wrote:


> Instead of tying in at the MFM signal level, why not replace the drive
> controller chip with something that looks like it at the register
> level?
> 
> Granted it's not a universal solution, but the common WD and NEC
> controllers seem like candidates.
> 
> I exchanged e-mail with someone who was thinking in that direction a
> while ago.  Probably time to dig that up.

I suppose you could, but emulating a drive is a better  "one size 
fits all", methinks.  Someone with a Televideo TS802H CP/M box isn't 
going to want the same controller-replacement as someone with an IBM 
5160--and once you get to the 5170 and later, MFM and floppy 
controllers usually cohabit the same board.

At any rate, those with commodity IBM ISA buses don't need to emulate 
a controller--they can avail themselves of an IDE replacement.

At least that's the way I see it.

--Chuck




From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun 26 19:26:59 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:26:59 -0600
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FEA31AD.9040304@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FE9ED6C.6030001@bitsavers.org>
 <E1Sjcal-0004ez-S4@shell.xmission.com> <4FEA31AD.9040304@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <E1Sjg5z-0006CJ-5K@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FEA31AD.9040304 at bitsavers.org>,
    Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> writes:

> On 6/26/12 1:42 PM, Richard wrote:
> 
> > Are these app notes online?
> 
> I'm copying what I have to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/national/_appNote

Looks like the most relevant application notes for this discussion are
also included in the 1989 Mass Storge Handbook
<http://bitsavers.org/pdf/national/_dataBooks/1989_Mass_Storage_Handbook/>
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun 26 19:37:05 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:37:05 -0600
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206261937490.6326@duo>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE9E204.5020700@neurotica.com>,
 <4FE9E6B5.8070103@bitsavers.org> <4FE98A2B.32037.365A7D@cclist.sydex.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206261937490.6326@duo>
Message-ID: <E1SjgFl-0006u3-Gi@shell.xmission.com>


In article <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206261937490.6326 at duo>,
    Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> writes:

> Instead of tying in at the MFM signal level, why not replace the drive 
> controller chip with something that looks like it at the register level?

Because in vintage hardware, there's a connector for the drive, not
the controller chip.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Jun 26 19:55:02 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:55:02 -0600
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE9EBF3.30440.1B450F5@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE98A2B.32037.365A7D@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206261937490.6326@duo>
 <4FE9EBF3.30440.1B450F5@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <E1SjgX8-0007zM-Mc@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4FE9EBF3.30440.1B450F5 at cclist.sydex.com>,
    "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes:

> I suppose you could, but emulating a drive is a better  "one size 
> fits all", methinks.

Yes, I've got some weird boxes that I believe are using ST-506 drives.
I could easily put an emulator for the drive in place using a
connector.  Swapping out the controller is a completely different ball
of wax and an order of magnitude more complicated.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 20:26:32 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 21:26:32 -0400
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE9D210.6648.14F301B@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE990E1.15558.5090B1@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <F4C5FF9D-AD4E-41D0-9592-2A3CA55ED0A2@gmail.com>
 <4FE9D210.6648.14F301B@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A5520923-16E4-4DDE-A4D4-8BA46F2EEBD7@gmail.com>

On Jun 26, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 26 Jun 2012 at 16:44, David Riley wrote:
> 
>> I might think a PIC32 would be a bit more efficient (depending on the
>> ARM used); don't most MIPS architectures have a bit more horespower
>> than most ARM architectures?  Mileage may vary, of course.
> 
> For me, it's the peripherals.  "framed" SPI essentially gives you bit 
> stream capabilities with 32-bit DMA.  The DMA channels also have a 
> CRC generator, if needed.  Most inputs are 5V tolerant.  128KB of RAM 
> on-chip.
> 
> I'm not saying that there isn't an ARM out there with the same 
> capabilities, but I haven't seen one myself.

Check out Freescale's Kinetis family, if you're interested.  Pretty
similar peripheral set and size range.

> I don't see any issue with making this a software-only.  Use one of 
> the SPIs to interface to a SDHC.
> 
> Why bother with an FPGA?

Well, I like them for CDR tasks because it's really easy to make
a clock-efficient digital PLL with one.  I'm comfortable with
them and feel pretty confident that I could create a pretty
robust implementation without worrying about whether I have the
processing horsepower to handle the load.

It mostly comes down to the tools you like to work with, I
guess.  I work with FPGAs a lot and feel like one bolted onto
a microcontroller gives you a higher degree of flexibility
than a software-only solution.  That is, of course, if you
choose to accept the closed software ecosystem of the FPGA
vendors, which has been hashed to death on this list and is
not something I'm keen to debate further.


- Dave




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Jun 26 22:01:44 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:01:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <E1SjgX8-0007zM-Mc@shell.xmission.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>, 
 <4FE98A2B.32037.365A7D@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206261937490.6326@duo>
 <4FE9EBF3.30440.1B450F5@cclist.sydex.com>
 <E1SjgX8-0007zM-Mc@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <20120626200009.H15425@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 26 Jun 2012, Richard wrote:
> Yes, I've got some weird boxes that I believe are using ST-506 drives.
> I could easily put an emulator for the drive in place using a
> connector.

IFF there existed a connector compatible replacement fot the drive.
The only devices that use the ST-605/412 interface are ALL spinning rust.






From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 26 22:03:24 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 23:03:24 -0400
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206261937490.6326@duo>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE9E204.5020700@neurotica.com>,
 <4FE9E6B5.8070103@bitsavers.org> <4FE98A2B.32037.365A7D@cclist.sydex.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206261937490.6326@duo>
Message-ID: <4FEA77FC.20901@neurotica.com>

On 06/26/2012 07:40 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> Instead of tying in at the MFM signal level, why not replace the drive
> controller chip with something that looks like it at the register level?
> 
> Granted it's not a universal solution, but the common WD and NEC
> controllers seem like candidates.
> 
> I exchanged e-mail with someone who was thinking in that direction a
> while ago.  Probably time to dig that up.

  That would never work on, for example, dave.g4ugm's IBM 3174s. :-(

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 26 22:27:10 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:27:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: dc fans
Message-ID: <1340767630.86518.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


black and red leads are labeled, white is not. Speed control? From large Sun servers OOPS! Sorry. But can someone inform regardless, and what kind of signal/circuit is required to control the speed, if thats the case. Cant successfully look it up now, its this stupid phone.


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Jun 26 22:30:36 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 20:30:36 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <A5520923-16E4-4DDE-A4D4-8BA46F2EEBD7@gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE9D210.6648.14F301B@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <A5520923-16E4-4DDE-A4D4-8BA46F2EEBD7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEA1BEC.16248.26FB659@cclist.sydex.com>

On 26 Jun 2012 at 21:26, David Riley wrote:

> Check out Freescale's Kinetis family, if you're interested.  Pretty
> similar peripheral set and size range.

Looks interesting, but daunting!  200 products in the Kinetix family--
good grief, by the time I've chosen a product, 10 new ones will 
probably have been hatched!

One aspect that I don't like about Microchip MCUs in general is their 
use of proprietary toolsets.  For instance, PIC32 device programming 
is done via SPI using Microchip programmers (e.g. PICKIT3), but that 
SPI is converted to EJTAG on-chip.  There are JTAG pins, but no one 
makes something that programs the PIC32 via commodity JTAG.  
Downright strange that.  I guess it sells programmers.
 
> Well, I like them for CDR tasks because it's really easy to make
> a clock-efficient digital PLL with one.  I'm comfortable with
> them and feel pretty confident that I could create a pretty
> robust implementation without worrying about whether I have the
> processing horsepower to handle the load.

FPGAs and microcontrollers are definitely overlapping areas; but I'm 
a little more at home doing work with software rather than VHDL.  I 
guess it's mostly a matter of what you're comfortable with.  And, as 
you've pointed out, FPGAs suffer the same "use our toolset" issues 
that some MCUs do.

Thanks for the pointer to the Freescale stuff.  I've got some reading 
to do.

--Chuck



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 26 22:38:20 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 23:38:20 -0400
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE9D210.6648.14F301B@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE990E1.15558.5090B1@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <F4C5FF9D-AD4E-41D0-9592-2A3CA55ED0A2@gmail.com>
 <4FE9D210.6648.14F301B@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FEA802C.2060409@neurotica.com>

On 06/26/2012 06:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> I might think a PIC32 would be a bit more efficient (depending on the
>> ARM used); don't most MIPS architectures have a bit more horespower
>> than most ARM architectures?  Mileage may vary, of course.
> 
> For me, it's the peripherals.  "framed" SPI essentially gives you bit 
> stream capabilities with 32-bit DMA.  The DMA channels also have a 
> CRC generator, if needed.  Most inputs are 5V tolerant.  128KB of RAM 
> on-chip.
> 
> I'm not saying that there isn't an ARM out there with the same 
> capabilities, but I haven't seen one myself.

  There are. :)  I'm an ARM guy these days.  But if that's not what you
end up using, I'll probably still buy a stack of them!  You can't beat
the tool quality on ARM and AVR.  All free, all source code available!

  PIC32 looks really nice, but until there are real tools available for
serious platforms, I won't touch them.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 26 22:42:19 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 23:42:19 -0400
Subject: dc fans
In-Reply-To: <1340767630.86518.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1340767630.86518.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FEA811B.7090503@neurotica.com>

On 06/26/2012 11:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> black and red leads are labeled, white is not. Speed control? From
> large Sun servers OOPS! Sorry. But can someone inform regardless, and
> what kind of signal/circuit is required to control the speed, if
> thats the case. Cant successfully look it up now, its this stupid
> phone.

  Put them BACK in the large Sun servers if they're anything remotely
recent.

  It's almost definitely a tachometer lead.  They're typically
controlled via PWM, with a closed-loop servo for speed control and
OS-accessible speed monitoring.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Tue Jun 26 23:16:48 2012
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 21:16:48 -0700
Subject: HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
Message-ID: <4FEA8930.3070301@mail.msu.edu>

Hi all --

Picked up a (mostly) complete HP 9885M (8" floppy drive) set up for my 
HP 9825 computer.  I have the 9885M drive itself, a 98032A interface, 
and the "Flexible Disk Drive" ROM pak for the 9825.  I am unfortunately 
missing the "9825A Disk System Cartridge" tape (hp p/n 09885-90035).  
Any ideas if this has been archived anywhere?  I haven't found it in my 
searches. (Not that I currently have any means to get it onto my 
9825...) Looks like this is actually required in order to format disks. 
Sigh...

Unfortunately, the drive appears to be failing the built-in diagnostic; 
there's a single LED that goes on when the test starts and it's supposed 
to go out within a minute if the diagnostic's passed.  The LED on mine 
just stays on permanently.  Unfortunately that's the -only- diagnostic 
indicator on the unit.  I've read through the service manual and unless 
I'm missing something it doesn't really describe how to go about 
narrowing down the problem.  There's a flowchart that basically says "if 
the light doesn't go out, it's a problem with the controller in the 
drive unit" which seems fairly obvious...

The service manual mentions a diagnostic on the tape, but I don't have 
this to aid me.  Anyone have any experience with these drives?  Any 
pointers for starting out?  (I've checked the obvious things -- the 
power supply voltages look good, etc).

Thanks as always,
Josh


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Jun 26 23:19:46 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 21:19:46 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FEA802C.2060409@neurotica.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <4FE990E1.15558.5090B1@cclist.sydex.com>, ,
 <F4C5FF9D-AD4E-41D0-9592-2A3CA55ED0A2@gmail.com>,
 <4FE9D210.6648.14F301B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEA802C.2060409@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W2125D7E3FCD64ED9401A3AA3E70@phx.gbl>


Hi
 If I knew what machine it was intended for, I might
start with a controller like the one in the machine. It
already has much of the needed hardware and then
a simple microcontroller. Not need for high speed.
Say I was making it for an XT. Just find a similar XT
controller. A few interface chips to control the digital
part and the controller to send and recieve the MFM.
A little bit of signal changing but not rocket science.
Dwight 		 	   		  

From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 26 23:42:17 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 21:42:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: dc fans
Message-ID: <1340772137.41226.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


So in laymans terms you vary the speed by narrowing or widening the pulses delivered on the positive lead (duty cycle). A steady 12vdc and you get max air flow/speed? The tach lead is registered by something on the mobo, and otherwise has nothing to do with the rotation of the blades?
------------------------------
 On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 8:42 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote:
 
 >On 06/26/2012 11:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
 >> black and red leads are labeled, white is not. Speed control? From
 >> large Sun servers OOPS! Sorry. But can someone inform regardless, and
 >> what kind of signal/circuit is required to control the speed, if
 >> thats the case. Cant successfully look it up now, its this stupid
 >> phone.
 >
 > Put them BACK in the large Sun servers if they're anything remotely
 >recent.
 >
 > It's almost definitely a tachometer lead. They're typically
 >controlled via PWM, with a closed-loop servo for speed control and
 >OS-accessible speed monitoring.
 >
 > -Dave
 >
 >-- 
 >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
 >New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 26 23:50:47 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 00:50:47 -0400
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE7OWFGKr3pER9wMD2Kbv26v_F04pidRdob2eGbv9nmfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCE7OWFGKr3pER9wMD2Kbv26v_F04pidRdob2eGbv9nmfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>

On 06/26/2012 01:23 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>  About the Raspberry Pi in particular...I'm having a very hard time
>> getting excited about it.  It's a neat board, to be sure, but it's only
>> the twentieth or thirtieth design just like it (and nobody got this
>> excited about its predecessors), and you can't actually GET one without
>> spending months on end on a waiting list.
> 
> I am a bit surprised by the sheer level of hype myself,

  As am I.  People are talking about it like it's the first small form
factor Linux machine.

> but I think
> the extreme cheapness is what is driving people.

  That must be it.  See below.

> This might be harder
> to understand in America, where even in bad times, you guys typically
> have lots more disposable income than we do -

  I'm afraid this hasn't been true for a while.  Of my "top ten"
in-person friends, seven are unemployed, five have been unemployed for
more than two years, and eight have lost their homes.  And they are all
educated professionals; most are engineers.

  I'm not trying to start an argument, but I must assert that the
typical "everyone in America is rich" image that many people outside of
America seem to believe (NOT saying you said that, but it's along the
same lines) has never been true...but the American propaganda machine is
perfectly happy to propagate that rumor.  Our roads and bridges are
crumbling, our homes are owned by banks and rotting/falling down due to
unoccupancy, adults are living with their parents (I understand this is
acceptable in other societies, especially in South America...we are very
different, it means "loser" here), the homeless population is
overrunning the public parks and soup kitchens...it really is quite a mess.

  Thanks, Wall Street...and my stupid fellow Americans for living beyond
their means and shopping at WalMart, so our money goes straight to
China, never to return.

  (again, I know YOU didn't say this, Liam, and you have been here so
you know more than most...but I get SO SICK AND TIRED of people in other
countries going on and on about how every American is somehow born with
a silver spoon in his/her mouth, we're all so spoiled, etc etc...it is a
lie...they have no idea of what things are really like here)

> The idea of a complete functioning RISC computer, all of whose
> software is free, for ?30 including tax, is proving very enticing to
> people here. It's not very powerful, but then, it also doesn't take
> much power, so people are using them for media servers, digital
> signage, monitoring and control.

  Yes, this is true.  It has never happened at this price point.  I have
a slightly more powerful machine that I paid, I think, $80 for two years
ago. (no silver spoon here, that was a big stretch!)  The only real
difference about the Raspberry Pi is that it's very, very inexpensive.

  Still, that's not what people SAY about it.  They go on and on about
how unbelievably awesome it is...So small, power sipper, graphics
capability, networking, real OS, blah blah blah.  For the things people
actually SAY about it, it is far from unique!

> Yes, an electronics hobbyist could do much of this with an Arduino,
> but that needs a quite high level of skill and knowledge. More than I
> have, for instance. On an R?, it's a Linux machine with a graphical
> desktop; you can just write something in Perl or Python or a shell
> script or even BASIC and have it work. No need to learn new languages
> or anything.

  True, but any old PC that one can pick up for free on trash day meets
all these requirements, and is even cheaper.  Just larger and more
power-hungry.

> For many people, over here, devices costing ?150, such as a
> Beagleboard, are too expensive to buy for curiosity or as a toy. An R?
> is the price of a good meal with a beer; that is disposable income for
> a lot of people, whereas a Beagleboard or a Pandaboard is the cost of
> a cheap weekend family vacation.

  The board I have is similar to a Beagleboard (it's a "Hawk Board").
More expensive, yes.  I guess that really is the difference...but as
above, that's not what everyone talks about when they rant and rave
about the Raspberry Pi.  It seems to have gotten some sort of bizarre
cult status almost overnight, and I think that's just weird.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Jun 26 23:53:11 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 00:53:11 -0400
Subject: dc fans
In-Reply-To: <1340772137.41226.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1340772137.41226.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FEA91B7.2080608@neurotica.com>

On 06/27/2012 12:42 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
> So in laymans terms you vary the speed by narrowing or widening the
> pulses delivered on the positive lead (duty cycle). A steady 12vdc
> and you get max air flow/speed? The tach lead is registered by
> something on the mobo, and otherwise has nothing to do with the
> rotation of the blades?

  This is usually the case, yes.  Visualize PWM...perform an integration
over several cycles, to take the area under the curve.  The energy
delivered to the load varies with the pulse width.  But the switching
devices (usually MOSFETs) are going from cutoff to saturation and back,
never operating in active mode for more than a few microseconds at a
time, and so dissipating very little power, thus running VERY efficiently.

  Many Sun systems drive their fans this way.  Actually many high-end
server systems from many manufacturers drive their fans this way, as
does some PC hardware.  It's very common.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 00:41:35 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 07:41:35 +0200
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FEA31AD.9040304@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FE9ED6C.6030001@bitsavers.org>
 <E1Sjcal-0004ez-S4@shell.xmission.com>
 <4FEA31AD.9040304@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CACStewa86eRFkB8arOyyV6ENQ7_aOXUL6n3_Vm=9VPQ9pu+MTA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 12:03 AM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>
> I'm copying what I have to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/national/_appNote
>

LOL, ofcourse bitsavers has it... *Keeps being amazed* ;)

re,

Sander


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Wed Jun 27 00:54:22 2012
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 00:54:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: dc fans
In-Reply-To: <4FEA91B7.2080608@neurotica.com>
References: <1340772137.41226.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FEA91B7.2080608@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206270030490.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Wed, 27 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 06/27/2012 12:42 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
>
>> So in laymans terms you vary the speed by narrowing or widening the 
>> pulses delivered on the positive lead (duty cycle). A steady 12vdc and 
>> you get max air flow/speed? The tach lead is registered by something on 
>> the mobo, and otherwise has nothing to do with the rotation of the 
>> blades?
>
> This is usually the case, yes.  Visualize PWM...perform an integration 
> over several cycles, to take the area under the curve.  The energy 
> delivered to the load varies with the pulse width.  But the switching 
> devices (usually MOSFETs) are going from cutoff to saturation and back, 
> never operating in active mode for more than a few microseconds at a 
> time, and so dissipating very little power, thus running VERY 
> efficiently.
>
> Many Sun systems drive their fans this way.  Actually many high-end 
> server systems from many manufacturers drive their fans this way, as 
> does some PC hardware.  It's very common.

4-wire fans have also become very common, both in servers and consumer 
PCs. These have a dedicated pwm control lead in addition to the power and 
tach leads. The majority of these fans use red/black/blue/green for their 
leads, but other color combinations exist too.

With 3-wire fans, one very common scheme is red/black/yellow, but some 
manufacturers use white instead of yellow for the tach feedback. Other 
times white can be pwm control, so you often need the manufacturer's 
datasheet to know for certain what you have. Even then, sometimes the 
datasheet can be wrong...I have some ADDA fans that had the wrong part 
number put on them at the factory.

Some of the ADDA and Mechatronics fans I have in my machines use a white 
lead for the tach. With the ADDA fans in particular, if you happen to 
accidentally ground the tach lead, it will fry the fet transistor in the 
fan itself.

Where some of these fans get to be really fun is when you have 8-wire 
dual-motor units. These have two fans in-line that rotate in opposite 
directions (but with airflow in the same direction), with each fan having 
a different blade pitch/configuration. These type of fans are designed to 
allow a very wide range of airflow changes depending on the mode of each 
fan motor. The downside is that they tend to be incredibly loud due to air 
turbulence if both fans are running at full speed.


From jgevaryahu at gmail.com  Tue Jun 26 12:21:48 2012
From: jgevaryahu at gmail.com (Jonathan Gevaryahu)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 13:21:48 -0400
Subject: Emulex QD21 firmware
Message-ID: <4FE9EFAC.6020005@gmail.com>

Seth,
Can you dump the EPROMS of the old Rev. D firmware before replacing 
them? I'm interested in tracking what changed over the different 
firmware revisions.

-- 
Jonathan Gevaryahu
jgevaryahu at gmail.com
jgevaryahu at hotmail.com



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Jun 27 00:57:57 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 01:57:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCE7OWFGKr3pER9wMD2Kbv26v_F04pidRdob2eGbv9nmfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <201206270557.BAA14313@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> ([...] I get SO SICK AND TIRED of people in other countries going on
> and on about how every American is somehow born with a silver spoon
> in his/her mouth, we're all so spoiled, etc etc [...])

As true as this is, there are far too many places on this planet with
respect to which even today's USA is amazingly well off.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 27 01:17:43 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 23:17:43 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W2125D7E3FCD64ED9401A3AA3E70@phx.gbl>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FEA802C.2060409@neurotica.com>,
 <SNT129-W2125D7E3FCD64ED9401A3AA3E70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4FEA4317.29033.308B3C1@cclist.sydex.com>

On 26 Jun 2012 at 21:19, dwight elvey wrote:

>  If I knew what machine it was intended for, I might
> start with a controller like the one in the machine. It
> already has much of the needed hardware and then
> a simple microcontroller. Not need for high speed.
> Say I was making it for an XT. Just find a similar XT
> controller. A few interface chips to control the digital
> part and the controller to send and recieve the MFM.
> A little bit of signal changing but not rocket science.

But what's the point of doing this for an XT when IDE controllers are 
already available for the ISA bus (even the 8 bit bus)?  One can even 
fit an compact flash card to one and be completely solid state.

But then, it's not a one-size-fits-all solution.  If there's a need 
for an MFM drive on an uncommon piece of gear, one is stuck with re-
engineering the thing again.

--Chuck
 	   		  




From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 27 01:35:25 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 23:35:25 -0700
Subject: dc fans
In-Reply-To: <1340767630.86518.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1340767630.86518.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FEA473D.2954.318E7B4@cclist.sydex.com>

On 26 Jun 2012 at 20:27, Chris Tofu wrote:

> black and red leads are labeled, white is not. Speed control? From
> large Sun servers OOPS! Sorry. But can someone inform regardless, and
> what kind of signal/circuit is required to control the speed, if thats
> the case. Cant successfully look it up now, its this stupid phone.

Consult the datasheet for the fan.  Third leads are not always tach 
sensors--and less likely to be so the further one goes back.  During 
the 1990s, one very common use was a "locked rotor alarm"--low while 
the fan is spinning, but high when the fan is stuck.    This was very 
often the case when fan noise wasn't an issue, but an alarm was 
desired should the fan fail.

I have several Panaflo fans with this 3-wire configuration.  I've 
read complaints from puzzled users of  secondhand 3-wire fans 
wondering why they get no tach reading when the fan is used in a 
(semi) modern PC with speed control.

--Chuck





From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 01:47:06 2012
From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 08:47:06 +0200
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCE7OWFGKr3pER9wMD2Kbv26v_F04pidRdob2eGbv9nmfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ0dHHz8MWv9hWJxo_yQYaiAHtNTvSU4-pqo2eX47WLFE5p6fg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:50 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
> On 06/26/2012 01:23 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>> but I think
>> the extreme cheapness is what is driving people.
>
> ?That must be it. ?See below.

[...]

>> The idea of a complete functioning RISC computer, all of whose
>> software is free, for ?30 including tax, is proving very enticing to
>> people here. It's not very powerful, but then, it also doesn't take
>> much power, so people are using them for media servers, digital
>> signage, monitoring and control.
>
> ?Yes, this is true. ?It has never happened at this price point. ?I have
> a slightly more powerful machine that I paid, I think, $80 for two years
> ago. (no silver spoon here, that was a big stretch!) ?The only real
> difference about the Raspberry Pi is that it's very, very inexpensive.

I think there is a little bit of history repeating - and in part, it's
a deliberate move by the creators.  In particular, remember the
ZX80/81; technically not very exciting; but cheap enough for anyone to
get it.  That made it influential.  The same argument can be made for
the Vic 20.

> ?True, but any old PC that one can pick up for free on trash day meets
> all these requirements, and is even cheaper. ?Just larger and more
> power-hungry.

Moreso in Europe than North America, space _is_ a serious
consideration.  And also the prices for plain old Wintel boxen I see
here in France are quite a bit higher than I saw in Montreal - where
at points I had trouble giving away P4's that the university was
tossing out.  Here in Rennes, those still seem to go for about 100
euros.  (Judging from advertised prices on the local craigslist
equivalent (leboncoin.fr). I haven't needed to sell anything nor any
desire to buy such a machine, so I don't know if those people are
simply deluding themselves.)

Mind you, I have a more powerful machine than the Raspberry Pi in my
pocket, with similar CPU, GPU and OS.  However, I need that as a tool
so I can't mess around with it too much - and it also cost
significantly more.  It is also less open than the R? (where only the
GPU is somewhat closed).

That's why I am waiting to get myself a R?.  I can play with it and if
I break it, it's an inconvenience.  If I break my phone, I _have_ to
replace it.

If I want to mess with a R?, I get it out of a storage bin, do stuff,
put it back.  A fullsized pentium (or similar) box requires a
permanent place on a bench.  I do not have that kind of space at this
moment.

-- 
Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org



From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Jun 27 01:57:09 2012
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 08:57:09 +0200
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206260710330.5652@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206260710330.5652@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <20120627085709.c0fb895c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Tue, 26 Jun 2012 07:13:16 -0700 (PDT)
Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:

> Where exactly can I find those 20 or 30 designs? 
In addition to what Liam postet: Have a look at the FrendlyARMs:
http://www.friendlyarm.net/

> I've yet to see anything 
> that comes close to what the R-Pi can do for the price they're at.
The Pi is cheap in the bad sense of this word. AFAIK e.g. the Ethernet
hangs off USB. The connectors are spread around all four edges of the
PCB. This makes it quite hard to put it into a proper enclosure.
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}



From robert at irrelevant.com  Wed Jun 27 02:13:59 2012
From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 08:13:59 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAJ0dHHz8MWv9hWJxo_yQYaiAHtNTvSU4-pqo2eX47WLFE5p6fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCE7OWFGKr3pER9wMD2Kbv26v_F04pidRdob2eGbv9nmfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>
 <CAJ0dHHz8MWv9hWJxo_yQYaiAHtNTvSU4-pqo2eX47WLFE5p6fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAApARtvZbC3nFEuEWaLPNj5vQs7a9BLEurcGuoisyPQdeO+nWw@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 June 2012 07:47, Joachim Thiemann <joachim.thiemann at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:50 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
>
> I think there is a little bit of history repeating - and in part, it's
> a deliberate move by the creators. ?In particular, remember the
> ZX80/81; technically not very exciting; but cheap enough for anyone to
> get it. ?That made it influential. ?The same argument can be made for
> the Vic 20.

And the Model A/B tags are definitely deliberate, being a hark back to
the BBC Micro which ended up (probably) as the first computer most
schools had for the kids to actually use..

>
> Moreso in Europe than North America, space _is_ a serious
> consideration. ?And also the prices for plain old Wintel boxen I see
> here in France are quite a bit higher than I saw in Montreal - where
> at points I had trouble giving away P4's that the university was
> tossing out. ?Here in Rennes, those still seem to go for about 100
> euros. ?(Judging from advertised prices on the local craigslist
> equivalent (leboncoin.fr). I haven't needed to sell anything nor any
> desire to buy such a machine, so I don't know if those people are
> simply deluding themselves.)

Whilst anonymous "old computer"s seem to pop up on freegle/freecycle a
fair bit, second hand P4s from traders seem to go for about ?40-50 it
seems.  I'm still trying to find a reasonable power, SFF or
thereabouts, box that will accept a PCI card for a teletext recovery
project I want to get involved in and that isn't outside my budget
(which is much closer to zero than I would like at the moment!)  SFF
for the same reasons, space!

I have two Raspberry Pis, (since I ordered from both distributors at
launch) and they are fun to play with.  I especially like the
boot-from-SD which means that I can change their use just by swapping
the card - I've got the regular linux setup and an OpenELEC card so
far.  No need to configure multi-boot, worry about partitioning discs,
or anything similar.  One is earmarked for Tiddler to play with, but
the other will probably stay in the hobby room for XBMC, general
computer use, or just for driving projects!


> That's why I am waiting to get myself a R?. ?I can play with it and if
> I break it, it's an inconvenience. ?If I break my phone, I _have_ to
> replace it.

Indeed - I keep thinking about the endless tinkering I can do with my
phone, but it's too expensive to replace should I do something wrong,
so I don't.

It is, however, definitely the price point that got me interested in
the Pi - and I know people who //don't actually have a computer// that
are interested in getting one simply because of that!

>
> If I want to mess with a R?, I get it out of a storage bin, do stuff,
> put it back. ?A fullsized pentium (or similar) box requires a
> permanent place on a bench. ?I do not have that kind of space at this
> moment.

I'm similar - I've got a cupboard I'm setting up the hobby room
systems in - a big PC will probably cook itself, and the rest of the
kit, in there..

Rob



From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Wed Jun 27 03:22:46 2012
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 09:22:46 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <201206270557.BAA14313@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCE7OWFGKr3pER9wMD2Kbv26v_F04pidRdob2eGbv9nmfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>
 <201206270557.BAA14313@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqGZWuXktKnH9Kt-H7599LP2S7e5tjHBhAKVtK-76BbvvQ@mail.gmail.com>

> ([...] I get SO SICK AND TIRED of people in other countries going on
> and on about how every American is somehow born with a silver spoon
> in his/her mouth, we're all so spoiled, etc etc [...])

Heh.  I have to live in one of those countries.


-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be
fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better?

Amelia: Yeah.

Doctor: Everything's going to be fine.



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 03:24:15 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 09:24:15 +0100
Subject: dc fans
In-Reply-To: <4FEA91B7.2080608@neurotica.com>
References: <1340772137.41226.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FEA91B7.2080608@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4FEAC32F.9080202@gmail.com>

On 27/06/2012 05:53, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 06/27/2012 12:42 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
>> So in laymans terms you vary the speed by narrowing or widening the
>> pulses delivered on the positive lead (duty cycle). A steady 12vdc
>> and you get max air flow/speed? The tach lead is registered by
>> something on the mobo, and otherwise has nothing to do with the
>> rotation of the blades?
>    This is usually the case, yes.  Visualize PWM...perform an integration
> over several cycles, to take the area under the curve.  The energy
> delivered to the load varies with the pulse width.  But the switching
> devices (usually MOSFETs) are going from cutoff to saturation and back,
> never operating in active mode for more than a few microseconds at a
> time, and so dissipating very little power, thus running VERY efficiently.
>
>    Many Sun systems drive their fans this way.  Actually many high-end
> server systems from many manufacturers drive their fans this way, as
> does some PC hardware.  It's very common.
>
>              -Dave
>
This months Everyday Practical Electronics

http://www.epemag3.com/

features a PIC based Fan Speed controller (see front cover on link) that 
discusses this but I am sure the same info is available freely on the 
net elsewehere. If you are stuck I can scan the apposite portion of the 
article..

-- 
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 03:28:53 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 09:28:53 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/?
 adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAJ0dHHz8MWv9hWJxo_yQYaiAHtNTvSU4-pqo2eX47WLFE5p6fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCE7OWFGKr3pER9wMD2Kbv26v_F04pidRdob2eGbv9nmfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>
 <CAJ0dHHz8MWv9hWJxo_yQYaiAHtNTvSU4-pqo2eX47WLFE5p6fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEAC445.5000609@gmail.com>

On 27/06/2012 07:47, Joachim Thiemann wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:50 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
>> On 06/26/2012 01:23 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>> but I think
>>> the extreme cheapness is what is driving people.

Yes but as its cheap you can treat it like a component. So if I want to 
build a small IBM1130 emulator I could use the VHDL model and FPGA but 
that runs at ?200.
With the Pi I can afford two or three so I can a Develop, a Test even a 
Training one if needs be...

>>   That must be it.  See below.
> [...]
>
>>> The idea of a complete functioning RISC computer, all of whose
>>> software is free, for ?30 including tax, is proving very enticing to
>>> people here. It's not very powerful, but then, it also doesn't take
>>> much power, so people are using them for media servers, digital
>>> signage, monitoring and control.
>>   Yes, this is true.  It has never happened at this price point.  I have
>> a slightly more powerful machine that I paid, I think, $80 for two years
>> ago. (no silver spoon here, that was a big stretch!)  The only real
>> difference about the Raspberry Pi is that it's very, very inexpensive.
> I think there is a little bit of history repeating - and in part, it's
> a deliberate move by the creators.  In particular, remember the
> ZX80/81; technically not very exciting; but cheap enough for anyone to
> get it.  That made it influential.  The same argument can be made for
> the Vic 20.
>
>>   True, but any old PC that one can pick up for free on trash day meets
>> all these requirements, and is even cheaper.  Just larger and more
>> power-hungry.
> Moreso in Europe than North America, space _is_ a serious
> consideration.  And also the prices for plain old Wintel boxen I see
> here in France are quite a bit higher than I saw in Montreal - where
> at points I had trouble giving away P4's that the university was
> tossing out.  Here in Rennes, those still seem to go for about 100
> euros.  (Judging from advertised prices on the local craigslist
> equivalent (leboncoin.fr). I haven't needed to sell anything nor any
> desire to buy such a machine, so I don't know if those people are
> simply deluding themselves.)
>
> Mind you, I have a more powerful machine than the Raspberry Pi in my
> pocket, with similar CPU, GPU and OS.  However, I need that as a tool
> so I can't mess around with it too much - and it also cost
> significantly more.  It is also less open than the R? (where only the
> GPU is somewhat closed).
>
> That's why I am waiting to get myself a R?.  I can play with it and if
> I break it, it's an inconvenience.  If I break my phone, I _have_ to
> replace it.
>
> If I want to mess with a R?, I get it out of a storage bin, do stuff,
> put it back.  A fullsized pentium (or similar) box requires a
> permanent place on a bench.  I do not have that kind of space at this
> moment.
>


-- 
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



From lehmann at ans-netz.de  Wed Jun 27 03:45:48 2012
From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 10:45:48 +0200
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W2125D7E3FCD64ED9401A3AA3E70@phx.gbl>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>, , 
 <4FE990E1.15558.5090B1@cclist.sydex.com>, ,
 <F4C5FF9D-AD4E-41D0-9592-2A3CA55ED0A2@gmail.com>,
 <4FE9D210.6648.14F301B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEA802C.2060409@neurotica.com>
 <SNT129-W2125D7E3FCD64ED9401A3AA3E70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20120627104548.Horde.WNmXPaQd9PdP6sg8Q2R6dDA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>


dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi
>  If I knew what machine it was intended for, I might
> start with a controller like the one in the machine. It
> already has much of the needed hardware and then
> a simple microcontroller. Not need for high speed.
> Say I was making it for an XT. Just find a similar XT
> controller. A few interface chips to control the digital
> part and the controller to send and recieve the MFM.
> A little bit of signal changing but not rocket science.
> Dwight

I did something like that for my old eastern Germany Zilog
System 8000 clone (called EAW P8000). There the "WDC controller"
is a Z80 computer accessing the ST506 on one side and
communication with the host via a PIO on the other side.
What I did was now to just take my own solution and attach
it to the PIO and act like the "WDC controller" but with an
SD-Card and optionally an IDE harddisk behind. This was kinda
easy to do as just the PIO communication and the communication
protocol had to be redeveloped.

But - with that way you would need to develop a controller for
every existing computer system in the world where you want to
replace broken ST506 drives. So you have to develop for each
system different solutions and even on some systems those
ontrollers cannot be removed easily and are not attached with
a DB25 cable like mine is where you can just plug another
device onto it.

So - the solution who would more people benefit from would be
of course an ST506-harddisk-replacement solution - but this would
of course also result in much more work to do than just replacing
the controller like I did.

    Greetings, Oliver

PS Whoever is interested in what I did... some unfinished
documentation at http://pofo.de/P8000/wdcemu.php and some nice
pictures of my prototype board at
http://pics.pofo.de/gallery3/index.php/P8000/P8000_boards/WDC-Emulator


From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 04:27:25 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 11:27:25 +0200
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <D7D9C77E92254EFEA05A53E2DC576930@vostro>
References: <D7D9C77E92254EFEA05A53E2DC576930@vostro>
Message-ID: <CACStewZTmBpY-pp7hb6N5bfoVUXoerFZe0F63jmm916eUJG9iQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Peter Van Peborgh <peter at vanpeborgh.eu> wrote:
> In September next, I will be emptying a small warehouse of vintage computer and electronic items, including oscilloscopes and lots of valves/tubes.
>
> I am trying to ascertain what interest there would be in buying some of these items from me.
>
It does depend a bit on what it is exactly ;) I'm still searching for
DEC-related stuff, mostly aimed at PDP-11, DEC Terminals, Teletypes
and a Tektronix 465 ;)

And UK is much in favor in comparison to the US for me, living in the
Netherlands.

re,

Sander

-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From peter at vanpeborgh.eu  Wed Jun 27 02:56:00 2012
From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 08:56:00 +0100
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
Message-ID: <D7D9C77E92254EFEA05A53E2DC576930@vostro>

In September next, I will be emptying a small warehouse of vintage computer and electronic items, including oscilloscopes and lots of valves/tubes. 

I am trying to ascertain what interest there would be in buying some of these items from me. 

peter
|| |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
Peter Van Peborgh
62 St Mary's Rise
Writhlington  Radstock
Somerset BA3 3PD
UK
01761 439 234
|| |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |


From p.gebhardt at ymail.com  Wed Jun 27 06:52:02 2012
From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 12:52:02 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <D7D9C77E92254EFEA05A53E2DC576930@vostro>
References: <D7D9C77E92254EFEA05A53E2DC576930@vostro>
Message-ID: <1340797922.21283.YahooMailNeo@web29105.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

I'd be interested in DEC and Honeywell related items and computer peripherals such as disk drives, reel tape drives and media from the 60's to 80's era, mostly from Control Data (can be rebadged stuff) and DEC. UK is thankfully not too far from Germany. And I'm in London every couple of months, if that can help.


Kind regards,
Pierre


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/


________________________________
 Von: Peter Van Peborgh <peter at vanpeborgh.eu>
An: cctech at classiccmp.org 
Gesendet: 9:56 Mittwoch, 27.Juni 2012
Betreff: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
 
In September next, I will be emptying a small warehouse of vintage computer and electronic items, including oscilloscopes and lots of valves/tubes. 

I am trying to ascertain what interest there would be in buying some of these items from me. 

peter
|| |? |?  |? ? |? ?  |? ? ? |? ? ?  |? ? ? ? |
Peter Van Peborgh
62 St Mary's Rise
Writhlington? Radstock
Somerset BA3 3PD
UK
01761 439 234
|| |? |?  |? ? |? ?  |? ? ? |? ? ?  |? ? ? ? |

From snhirsch at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 07:04:03 2012
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 08:04:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FEA77FC.20901@neurotica.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FE9E204.5020700@neurotica.com>,
 <4FE9E6B5.8070103@bitsavers.org> <4FE98A2B.32037.365A7D@cclist.sydex.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206261937490.6326@duo>
 <4FEA77FC.20901@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206270802040.6326@duo>

On Tue, 26 Jun 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 06/26/2012 07:40 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>> Instead of tying in at the MFM signal level, why not replace the drive
>> controller chip with something that looks like it at the register level?
>>
>> Granted it's not a universal solution, but the common WD and NEC
>> controllers seem like candidates.
>>
>> I exchanged e-mail with someone who was thinking in that direction a
>> while ago.  Probably time to dig that up.
>
>  That would never work on, for example, dave.g4ugm's IBM 3174s. :-(

I did qualify the suggestion with a hearty "..it's not universal".  We all 
tend to look at the problem through the filter of our own needs.  In my 
case, all the machines with creaky drives have accessible (and socketed) 
WD chips.  That's why a piggyback sounded tempting.


-- 



From abs at absd.org  Wed Jun 27 07:28:58 2012
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 13:28:58 +0100
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <D7D9C77E92254EFEA05A53E2DC576930@vostro>
References: <D7D9C77E92254EFEA05A53E2DC576930@vostro>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pYE1YG=NaEhtZDMzh7TXPb3wOpPsm8-BD6o9tcCNfv5Xw@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 June 2012 08:56, Peter Van Peborgh <peter at vanpeborgh.eu> wrote:

> In September next, I will be emptying a small warehouse of vintage
> computer and electronic items, including oscilloscopes and lots of
> valves/tubes.
>
> I am trying to ascertain what interest there would be in buying some of
> these items from me.
>
>
Could definitely be interested in some (relatively :) later VAX era DEC
stuff if there is any :)

Thanks


From abs at absd.org  Wed Jun 27 07:28:58 2012
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 13:28:58 +0100
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <D7D9C77E92254EFEA05A53E2DC576930@vostro>
References: <D7D9C77E92254EFEA05A53E2DC576930@vostro>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pYE1YG=NaEhtZDMzh7TXPb3wOpPsm8-BD6o9tcCNfv5Xw@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 June 2012 08:56, Peter Van Peborgh <peter at vanpeborgh.eu> wrote:

> In September next, I will be emptying a small warehouse of vintage
> computer and electronic items, including oscilloscopes and lots of
> valves/tubes.
>
> I am trying to ascertain what interest there would be in buying some of
> these items from me.
>
>
Could definitely be interested in some (relatively :) later VAX era DEC
stuff if there is any :)

Thanks


From wolfgang at eichberger.org  Wed Jun 27 07:35:58 2012
From: wolfgang at eichberger.org (Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 14:35:58 +0200
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pYE1YG=NaEhtZDMzh7TXPb3wOpPsm8-BD6o9tcCNfv5Xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D7D9C77E92254EFEA05A53E2DC576930@vostro>
 <CAGN_6pYE1YG=NaEhtZDMzh7TXPb3wOpPsm8-BD6o9tcCNfv5Xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANJYbi_nKkzPYgBk4omTo6thKDajOoyVH73yvZ-fqN5mps8BQA@mail.gmail.com>

I'd be interested in scrap/boken QBUS boards for spares if there are any
(they'd come in handy for various hardware projects/repair)....

Regards,
Wolfgang

2012/6/27 David Brownlee <abs at absd.org>

> On 27 June 2012 08:56, Peter Van Peborgh <peter at vanpeborgh.eu> wrote:
>
> > In September next, I will be emptying a small warehouse of vintage
> > computer and electronic items, including oscilloscopes and lots of
> > valves/tubes.
> >
> > I am trying to ascertain what interest there would be in buying some of
> > these items from me.
> >
> >
> Could definitely be interested in some (relatively :) later VAX era DEC
> stuff if there is any :)
>
> Thanks
>


From quapla at xs4all.nl  Wed Jun 27 08:07:54 2012
From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 15:07:54 +0200
Subject: 2x RA-60 + packs
Message-ID: <63dbe1de35bbcf650fb609c0ef0c90d0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>


As I'm getting rid of 'non classical PDP-11' equipment, I have 2 RA-60's
and 5 RA-60 packs which will have to go. Asking price is Eur 250 for the lot.

Although both were working when put in storage, they have developed a
(small?) fault. One spins up but does not do a head load, the other
does not spin up, could be minor fault or else make 1 drive out of these 2.

Comes with a KDA-50 (QBus) or UDA-50 (Unibus), depending on choice.

Pickup only (near Arnhem, Netherlands) due to the weight of these drives.

Ed

-- 
Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Wed Jun 27 04:48:34 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 02:48:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <20120627085709.c0fb895c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206260710330.5652@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <20120627085709.c0fb895c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206270245280.11430@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Wed, 27 Jun 2012, Jochen Kunz wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Jun 2012 07:13:16 -0700 (PDT)
> Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>
>> Where exactly can I find those 20 or 30 designs?
> In addition to what Liam postet: Have a look at the FrendlyARMs:
> http://www.friendlyarm.net/
Very nice.  Prices, not so much.  Thanks for the link though.

>
>> I've yet to see anything
>> that comes close to what the R-Pi can do for the price they're at.
> The Pi is cheap in the bad sense of this word. AFAIK e.g. the Ethernet
> hangs off USB. The connectors are spread around all four edges of the
> PCB. This makes it quite hard to put it into a proper enclosure.
>
Pfft.  http://www.adafruit.com/products/859

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Wed Jun 27 09:51:54 2012
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 07:51:54 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FEA31AD.9040304@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Sjcal-0004ez-S4@shell.xmission.com> <4FEA31AD.9040304@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <201206270751.54696.lbickley@bickleywest.com>

On Tuesday 26 June 2012, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 6/26/12 1:42 PM, Richard wrote:
> 
> > Are these app notes online?
> 
> I'm copying what I have to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/national/_appNote

Make that: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/national/_appNotes/ ;-)

Cheers,
Lyle
-- 
Lyle Bickley, AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 09:52:57 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 10:52:57 -0400
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <A090EA3B-8CC2-42F6-A808-D2F4FE3F0C1C@gmail.com>

On Jun 26, 2012, at 12:49 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

>  About the Raspberry Pi in particular...I'm having a very hard time
> getting excited about it.  It's a neat board, to be sure, but it's only
> the twentieth or thirtieth design just like it (and nobody got this
> excited about its predecessors), and you can't actually GET one without
> spending months on end on a waiting list.

Late reply, but better late than never.

I'll echo the comments about the extreme cheapness of the board being
a driving factor behind its popularity.  There's also a positive
feedback loop going on; because the board is so popular (and also
because it's partly aimed at getting kids to program), there are a
lot of pre-baked, simple to use, and most importantly WORKING Linux
distributions already available with a lot of active development
going on.  That lowers the barrier to entry, since it's a matter of
just torrenting an image and plopping it on an SD card instead of
finding the exact magical incantations required to make Debian
come up on one of the less popular boards.

Also, I mean, kids are picking this thing up for real and using it.
How can you not love this?  It's what the Apple II was for me when
I was 6.

http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1444

That said, I don't think it's some sort of miracle tool for
people who want to build embedded systems, and I think it's a
bit overpowered for that.  Most of the people pushing that angle
are looking for something that'll run Linux so they don't have to
do any actual work making their software run on bare metal when
they could easily accomplish what they're looking to do with a
32 MHz ARM or even an AVR.  Of course, the primary advantage is
that the RPi is already built and costs $25-$35 and will one day
be available in quantity.

In any case, I got mine a few days ago but haven't had the round
tuits to do anything more than drop an Arch Linux image on it and
make sure it boots.  I have lots of little fun things in mind,
though, and once my daughter is old enough to do something with
it besides try to ingest it, I'm making damn sure she learns how
to program. :-)


- Dave



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 10:41:15 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 16:41:15 +0100
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <1340797922.21283.YahooMailNeo@web29105.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1E644429F7A04EF2A379F82F47121ADF@G4UGMT41>

I am interested in analogue computers. Perhaps some of my fellow hams would
be interested in scopes.

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of P Gebhardt
> Sent: 27 June 2012 12:52
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
> 
> 
> I'd be interested in DEC and Honeywell related items and 
> computer peripherals such as disk drives, reel tape drives 
> and media from the 60's to 80's era, mostly from Control Data 
> (can be rebadged stuff) and DEC. UK is thankfully not too far 
> from Germany. And I'm in London every couple of months, if 
> that can help.
> 
> 
> Kind regards,
> Pierre
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
> Pierre's collection of classic computers : 
> http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  Von: Peter Van Peborgh <peter at vanpeborgh.eu>
> An: cctech at classiccmp.org 
> Gesendet: 9:56 Mittwoch, 27.Juni 2012
> Betreff: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
>  
> In September next, I will be emptying a small warehouse of 
> vintage computer and electronic items, including 
> oscilloscopes and lots of valves/tubes. 
> 
> I am trying to ascertain what interest there would be in 
> buying some of these items from me. 
> 
> peter
> || |? |?  |? ? |? ?  |? ? ? |? ? ?  |? ? ? ? |
> Peter Van Peborgh
> 62 St Mary's Rise
> Writhlington? Radstock
> Somerset BA3 3PD
> UK
> 01761 439 234
> || |? |?  |? ? |? ?  |? ? ? |? ? ?  |? ? ? ? |
> 




From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 10:50:54 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 17:50:54 +0200
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <A090EA3B-8CC2-42F6-A808-D2F4FE3F0C1C@gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <A090EA3B-8CC2-42F6-A808-D2F4FE3F0C1C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <74CFAD75-4744-4D7A-9C1F-5EDA6A6470D4@gmail.com>

On Jun 27, 2012, at 16:52, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:

> Also, I mean, kids are picking this thing up for real and using it.
> How can you not love this?  It's what the Apple II was for me when
> I was 6.

Hear, hear!

re,

Sander


From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 11:01:13 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 17:01:13 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCE7OWFGKr3pER9wMD2Kbv26v_F04pidRdob2eGbv9nmfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEqLgvcgVC6UdkY5OgJioAP3ocY7v0C++NFAq3bP2xJXg@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 June 2012 05:50, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
> On 06/26/2012 01:23 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>> ?About the Raspberry Pi in particular...I'm having a very hard time
>>> getting excited about it. ?It's a neat board, to be sure, but it's only
>>> the twentieth or thirtieth design just like it (and nobody got this
>>> excited about its predecessors), and you can't actually GET one without
>>> spending months on end on a waiting list.
>>
>> I am a bit surprised by the sheer level of hype myself,
>
> ?As am I. ?People are talking about it like it's the first small form
> factor Linux machine.

It's the first at toy-level prices, perhaps.

>> but I think
>> the extreme cheapness is what is driving people.
>
> ?That must be it. ?See below.
>
>> This might be harder
>> to understand in America, where even in bad times, you guys typically
>> have lots more disposable income than we do -
>
> ?I'm afraid this hasn't been true for a while. ?Of my "top ten"
> in-person friends, seven are unemployed, five have been unemployed for
> more than two years, and eight have lost their homes. ?And they are all
> educated professionals; most are engineers.

That is not uncommon in the UK - although oddly it seems slightly
better than 2-3Y ago now. Not that this has done me any good at all
personally.

> ?I'm not trying to start an argument, but I must assert that the
> typical "everyone in America is rich" image that many people outside of
> America seem to believe (NOT saying you said that, but it's along the
> same lines) has never been true...but the American propaganda machine is
> perfectly happy to propagate that rumor. ?Our roads and bridges are
> crumbling, our homes are owned by banks and rotting/falling down due to
> unoccupancy, adults are living with their parents (I understand this is
> acceptable in other societies, especially in South America...we are very
> different, it means "loser" here), the homeless population is
> overrunning the public parks and soup kitchens...it really is quite a mess.

I can't say what things look like from an American POV. What I can say
is 2 things:

[1] It's broadly like that here, too, and the improvement, if any,
since it all went pear-shaped in 2008 is marginal.

[2] I wasn't saying "everyone in America is rich". What I was saying
is somewhat different: that many things in the USA are much cheaper
than they are in Europe and that this has been true for most of my
life, AFAICT. Most USAnians are largely or completely unaware of this.

(Additionally, USAnians seem to have more disposable income -
something that may have changed in recent times.)

Examples:

>From this site:
http://www.newyorkstategasprices.com/
I am taking the price of a US gallon of petrol as about $3.50.
That is ?2.25.
A US gallon is 3.78 litres. That is 92? per litre or ?0.60 (60p) a litre.

>From this site:
http://www.petrolprices.com/
... I am taking the UK price to be about ?1.30 a litre, that is, $2.02.

So in Britain, petrol - "gas" - is $7.63 a US gallon.

If you think things in the USA are bad now, imagine what would happen
if the price of gasoline went from $3.50 to over $7.50.

(My estimate of 4-5x was way off; forgive me, I do not own a car, have
not ridden a motorcycle in 5y now and have never used a motor vehicle
outside the UK. I have not bought petrol in many years; it is a fairly
meaningless metric to me personally.)

Compare a pair of Levi's 501s on Amazon US:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=levis+501
$43.

And on Amazon UK:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=levis+501&x=0&y=0
?39.

?39 is $60.

40% more in the UK.

>From my few visits to the US, you can regard this as typical. Whatever
you pay for something, we will probably pay 40% to 100% more for it.

It is not that the average USAnian makes more money or has more money.
It's that for all that US$1 = just UK?0.60, that $1 will buy as much
or more than that 60p would buy here.

Since pay rates are about the same - citations:
Average US, $47K
http://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/article/average-salary-in-united-states/15200316.aspx
Average UK, ?30K
http://career-advice.monster.co.uk/salary-benefits/pay-salary-advice/uk-average-salary-graphs/article.aspx

?30,000 is about ?47,000.

So we make about the same, but yours will buy you about 40-100% more
goods. *That* is a very big, real difference.

For what it's worth, the UK is not a particularly expensive country by
European standards. A cup of coffee in a caf? here might be ?1.50; in
Norway or Sweden, ?4 or so. A pint of beer in London is about
?3-?3.50; in Norway or Sweden, ?6-?7. There are cheaper countries than
here - a pint in the Czech Republic would be about 30-40p - but also
ones where everything is twice as expensive.

The average USAnian has a quality of life approaching that of the
richest, most expensive countries in the world, but the cost of living
is that of one of the cheaper countries in the developed West.

/That/ is what we get irked about. /That/ is why people get jealous and bitter.

> ?Thanks, Wall Street...and my stupid fellow Americans for living beyond
> their means and shopping at WalMart, so our money goes straight to
> China, never to return.

Welcome to the C21. The same is happening across the developed world.

> ?Yes, this is true. ?It has never happened at this price point. ?I have
> a slightly more powerful machine that I paid, I think, $80 for two years
> ago. (no silver spoon here, that was a big stretch!) ?The only real
> difference about the Raspberry Pi is that it's very, very inexpensive.
>
> ?Still, that's not what people SAY about it. ?They go on and on about
> how unbelievably awesome it is...So small, power sipper, graphics
> capability, networking, real OS, blah blah blah. ?For the things people
> actually SAY about it, it is far from unique!

Ah, but because of its fame, it's appealing to people who don't really
know anything much about computers. The R? has a crappy, low-power CPU
and not much RAM, but a good powerful GPU which is sadly proprietary,
undocumented and with closed-source drivers. However, it's a good stab
at a minimum spec which will run Linux with a GUI and a desktop.

> ?True, but any old PC that one can pick up for free on trash day meets
> all these requirements, and is even cheaper. ?Just larger and more
> power-hungry.

Yes, but [a] it's not cool or trendy or new, [b] it's big and ugly and
boring, [c] it will require some expertise to refurbish and get
working, [d] it will be easily damaged by knocking it over or blocking
its vents. And it will cost a lot to run.

Cost of electricity in the USA: 11? per kWh
Cost of electricity in the UK: 22? per kWh
Citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing#Global_electricity_price_comparison

As I said, assume /everything/ here is about twice as expensive.

Kids seem to be finding the prospect of a tiny, cheap computer /just
for them/  which they can play with and which it doesn't matter if
they break appealing and enticing.

Also, adults are using them for lots of fun projects:

Robot planes (article by me):
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/12/raspberry_pi_drone/

Robot boats:
http://www.reghardware.com/2012/06/27/raspberry_pi_skippers_journey_across_atlantic_with_fishpi/

You could not do stuff like this with an old PC.

> ?The board I have is similar to a Beagleboard (it's a "Hawk Board").
> More expensive, yes. ?I guess that really is the difference...but as
> above, that's not what everyone talks about when they rant and rave
> about the Raspberry Pi. ?It seems to have gotten some sort of bizarre
> cult status almost overnight, and I think that's just weird.

It is a bit, but that is fashion for you. The world of trends and
fashion is perhaps one that seldom impacts your average geek. ;?)


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 11:13:09 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 17:13:09 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAJ0dHHz8MWv9hWJxo_yQYaiAHtNTvSU4-pqo2eX47WLFE5p6fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCE7OWFGKr3pER9wMD2Kbv26v_F04pidRdob2eGbv9nmfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>
 <CAJ0dHHz8MWv9hWJxo_yQYaiAHtNTvSU4-pqo2eX47WLFE5p6fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGasB42G9WOE1OXwgvUONiG19LDjipJWThwqQGS9DsJ8g@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 June 2012 07:47, Joachim Thiemann <joachim.thiemann at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think there is a little bit of history repeating - and in part, it's
> a deliberate move by the creators. ?In particular, remember the
> ZX80/81; technically not very exciting; but cheap enough for anyone to
> get it. ?That made it influential. ?The same argument can be made for
> the Vic 20.

Yes, although I think those are maybe poor examples. The ZX8[0|1] was
so *very* limited - no graphics, no sound, 1K of RAM. The VIC20 had
sound and graphics but a laughably low screen resolution - 22 columns
of text, I believe?

The better comparison would be the ZX Spectrum, I think.

Compare the R? with the BeagleBoard, PandaBoard, maybe the Hawkboard,
or the CottonCandy or ThinSlice or the other machines I wrote about
for the Register.

It has less RAM than most of them, a lot slower CPU, fewer ports,
fewer card slots - but it's a full 32-bit RISC computer with 256MB of
RAM, a few gig of nonvolatile local storage, basic I/O and an
expansion bus.

Compare the ZX Spectrum with its contemporaries - the Commodore 64,
BBC Micro, Oric-1, Dragon-32.

They all had better keyboards (even if only slightly for the Oric).
They all had better sound, probably some kind of graphics chip and
better/faster (or both) graphics, most had more ports, more
expandability - joysticks, ROM cartridges, disk drives, etc.

But the Spectrum was the cheapest and it had the essentials: colour
graphics, if poor; sound, if poor; and an expansion slot so you could
add a huge variety of peripherals. It only had 16K or 48K of RAM, but
48K plus the ROM filled the address space of the Z80, so it seemed
reasonable.

The ZX Spectrum and the R? have both been cut right down to bare
essentials, but they do have all the stuff you actually /need/.

The selection of games on the Spectrum was as good as on the
much-better-games-machine C64. OK, the Spectrum ones looked and
sounded rubbish compared to the CBM ones, but I can attest that they
were just as much fun to play. :?)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 11:26:45 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 17:26:45 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <A090EA3B-8CC2-42F6-A808-D2F4FE3F0C1C@gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <A090EA3B-8CC2-42F6-A808-D2F4FE3F0C1C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEnjuvYhvDOjSQAQQHBPXLC6wtE1D_=1zrBD6B_+zWjhQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 June 2012 15:52, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Also, I mean, kids are picking this thing up for real and using it.
> How can you not love this? ?It's what the Apple II was for me when
> I was 6.

For me when I was 12, the Apple II was about 6 months of my parent's
income and there was no way I was /ever/ going to get one. They spent
the money on sending me to school instead.

By the time I was 14 or so, I got a Spectrum for ?80 ($125) - probably
meant a month's spare money for my folks, but doable.

I have Googled but I can't find a price for a new Apple II in the UK,
but assuming the old swap-the-dollar-for-a-pound-sign trick, a used
Spectrum was one-tenth of the price of a new Apple II  2-3 years
earlier.

I knew other kids who owned Spectrums, C64s, Dragons, Orics and maybe
BBC Micros if their parents were both rich and boring. I never knew
anyone who owned an Apple - they were just /way/ too expensive.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 11:43:05 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 12:43:05 -0400
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEnjuvYhvDOjSQAQQHBPXLC6wtE1D_=1zrBD6B_+zWjhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <A090EA3B-8CC2-42F6-A808-D2F4FE3F0C1C@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEnjuvYhvDOjSQAQQHBPXLC6wtE1D_=1zrBD6B_+zWjhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F5253F38-7D51-4E95-9D78-CB6841ACE060@gmail.com>

On Jun 27, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Liam Proven wrote:

> On 27 June 2012 15:52, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Also, I mean, kids are picking this thing up for real and using it.
>> How can you not love this?  It's what the Apple II was for me when
>> I was 6.
> 
> For me when I was 12, the Apple II was about 6 months of my parent's
> income and there was no way I was /ever/ going to get one. They spent
> the money on sending me to school instead.

We never had one; my school had plenty, though.  The teachers had to
make me go outside for recess.

> By the time I was 14 or so, I got a Spectrum for ?80 ($125) - probably
> meant a month's spare money for my folks, but doable.
> 
> I have Googled but I can't find a price for a new Apple II in the UK,
> but assuming the old swap-the-dollar-for-a-pound-sign trick, a used
> Spectrum was one-tenth of the price of a new Apple II  2-3 years
> earlier.
> 
> I knew other kids who owned Spectrums, C64s, Dragons, Orics and maybe
> BBC Micros if their parents were both rich and boring. I never knew
> anyone who owned an Apple - they were just /way/ too expensive.

I don't recall much about the pricing.  Plenty of my friends had C64s,
which were essentially equivalent in popularity over here in the US
to the Spectrum in the UK (which makes a certain amount of sense;
one was an import in one place and not the other).  I wonder how much
that affected the UK pricing of the machines.

But there was a huge push to get Apples in schools here, helped by
the fact that the state of Minnesota paid for an awful lot of Apple
II software to be developed (most of my memories of the Apple II
aside from learning BASIC were from MECC educational games).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MECC

So for me, it was fairly dominant.  My parents had a Macintosh,
which I played plenty of games on, but you certainly couldn't just
hit the reset button and drop into a BASIC interpreter on the Mac.
It was, of course, the expensive machine, but my father used it
for work (desktop publishing), so it paid for itself fairly quickly.


- Dave





From julian at twinax.org  Wed Jun 27 12:34:47 2012
From: julian at twinax.org (Julian Wolfe)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 12:34:47 -0500
Subject: Selling my CT63(CT60) 68060-accelerated Falcon
Message-ID: <CAOFHNokjBBoqkbpTjGiQ1MjNQ7jRROvv+c+hKoTcMuiidaaO6A@mail.gmail.com>

So, I've set to selling my Falcon and its software.

It's just the board, with accelerator and memory.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160832830585?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_1413


The software is a separate auction but includes NVDI 5, N.AES 2.0, MagiC 6,
and CD Writer Suite 4 with ExtenDOS.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160832836938#ht_500wt_1413


Thanks for looking.

Julian


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 12:38:10 2012
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 13:38:10 -0400
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <F5253F38-7D51-4E95-9D78-CB6841ACE060@gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <A090EA3B-8CC2-42F6-A808-D2F4FE3F0C1C@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEnjuvYhvDOjSQAQQHBPXLC6wtE1D_=1zrBD6B_+zWjhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5253F38-7D51-4E95-9D78-CB6841ACE060@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=kZra5qYE5R1kJ0iwtt+r_VPagC29Wn3qgSu8oAy02Cg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 12:43 PM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't recall much about the pricing. ?Plenty of my friends had C64s...

The C-64 came out in the Fall of 1982 for $595 plus $595 for the 1541
disk.  I think a lot of machines at that price point sold with
cassette.  I don't recall the exact date, but somewhat quickly, the
prices fell to $395 for CPU and for the drive.  Eventually, of course,
the CPUs were selling for $99 at toy stores, but that was past the day
when the IBM Compatible had made major inroads into the home in the
US.

When a C-64+1541 was $1200, a typical Apple II configuration was about
$2200-$2400.  When the C-64 rig had dropped below $1000, the prices on
Apple II systems were essentially unchanged.

> But there was a huge push to get Apples in schools here, helped by
> the fact that the state of Minnesota paid for an awful lot of Apple
> II software to be developed (most of my memories of the Apple II
> aside from learning BASIC were from MECC educational games).
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MECC

I know of MECC, but my memory from the day (not living in Minnesota)
was that Apple was extremely generous with their Apples-in-schools
program and that was also part of keeping the retail prices high - to
keep the tax credit value of the discounted/donated systems far above
manufacturing cost.  As long as the demand stayed high enough for what
retail over-the-counter sales they got (and they did get them since so
many kids knew Apple that when their parents considered getting a
computer for Johnny, the choice was obvious), there was no incentive
to lower prices.  Of course things changed later, but in the
mid-to-late-80s, that was the dynamic.  I do believe that this
scenario kept Apple IIe and Apple IIgs prices much higher than other
"home" systems, or at least those machines below the IBM and IBM
Compatible market (8-bit, predominantly).

-ethan



From tom94022 at comcast.net  Wed Jun 27 12:41:36 2012
From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 10:41:36 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor 
In-Reply-To: <mailman.697.1340812260.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.697.1340812260.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <48A0D8102F624698966C0F25C409F078@U260>

There has been a lot of discussion on this subject and I have tried to read
all of it, but I may have missed a discussion of what I think is the key
problem in such a product.  Apologies in advance if I am repeating something

As I recall you could not move a formatted ST506/412 HDD between controllers
without first reformatting.  This is because the gap and header information
was likely different between different controller manufacturers.  This
particularly applies to ECC but could include simple things like address
mark, sync byte, etc.  So although your IDE drive gives you error free data
and a crystal will give you perfect serial timing (no pll required and the
pll in the controller never sees bit shift) the adaptor would have to
synthesize the particular format down to the bit and including the specific
ECC/CRC or the controller will post an error.

Since most of the ST506/412 controllers after the early ones were
"picocoded" state machines that did the serializing/deserialing I suspect
most any modern dsp can do the work, the real problem may turn out to be
getting the format information for the particular manufacturer and model
controller chip used in the system to which the adaptor attaches.  Even
within manufacturers the format changed with generations and some
manufacturers did custom variants, some of which were rumored to be designed
to preclude generic ST506/412 drive attachment. 

I suppose a very smart machine could learn by having a series of known data
patterns written to it, but that seems challenging.

So it may turn out to be an impossible task for other than the high volume
commercial controller chips and even there finding the specific ECC
algorithm might be difficult.

Just my 2 cents

Tom





From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 27 12:58:48 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 10:58:48 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=kZra5qYE5R1kJ0iwtt+r_VPagC29Wn3qgSu8oAy02Cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <F5253F38-7D51-4E95-9D78-CB6841ACE060@gmail.com>,
 <CAALmim=kZra5qYE5R1kJ0iwtt+r_VPagC29Wn3qgSu8oAy02Cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEAE768.16443.63F6E1@cclist.sydex.com>

On 27 Jun 2012 at 13:38, Ethan Dicks wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 12:43 PM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com>
> wrote: > I don't recall much about the pricing. ?Plenty of my friends
> had C64s...

Since I'm interested in the topic posted in the title of this thread, 
exactly how did this get to discussing C64?  Does the C64 use an 
ST506-type drive?  I didn't think so, but maybe I'm missing a market 
segment.

--Chuck




From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 27 13:06:34 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 11:06:34 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor 
In-Reply-To: <48A0D8102F624698966C0F25C409F078@U260>
References: <mailman.697.1340812260.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <48A0D8102F624698966C0F25C409F078@U260>
Message-ID: <4FEAE93A.15439.6B143B@cclist.sydex.com>

On 27 Jun 2012 at 10:41, Tom Gardner wrote:

> There has been a lot of discussion on this subject and I have tried to
> read all of it, but I may have missed a discussion of what I think is
> the key problem in such a product.  Apologies in advance if I am
> repeating something.

I think you've got it right--my implementation seeks to simply sample 
bit transitions without getting involved in the implementation of the 
formatting details of IAMs, CRC/ECC--although one would expect that 
MFM data is still MFM data.  Hence the need for speed and RAM.

At least data rates are fairly standard--5MHz for MFM, 7.5MHz for 2,7 
RLL.

--Chuck



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 13:28:39 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 19:28:39 +0100
Subject: Selling my CT63(CT60) 68060-accelerated Falcon
In-Reply-To: <CAOFHNokjBBoqkbpTjGiQ1MjNQ7jRROvv+c+hKoTcMuiidaaO6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <90E996FBDA4A43909C69F9970D3BF5ED@G4UGMT41>

would you ship the software to the UK?

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Julian Wolfe
> Sent: 27 June 2012 18:35
> To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Selling my CT63(CT60) 68060-accelerated Falcon
> 
> 
> So, I've set to selling my Falcon and its software.
> 
> It's just the board, with accelerator and memory.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/160832830585?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_1413


The software is a separate auction but includes NVDI 5, N.AES 2.0, MagiC 6,
and CD Writer Suite 4 with ExtenDOS.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160832836938#ht_500wt_141
3


Thanks for looking.

Julian




From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 13:33:14 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 19:33:14 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor 
In-Reply-To: <4FEAE93A.15439.6B143B@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <0DA1C79F229044E8B9947973D7E7928E@G4UGMT41>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
> Sent: 27 June 2012 19:07
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: RE: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor 
> 
> 
> On 27 Jun 2012 at 10:41, Tom Gardner wrote:
> 
> > There has been a lot of discussion on this subject and I 
> have tried to 
> > read all of it, but I may have missed a discussion of what 
> I think is 
> > the key problem in such a product.  Apologies in advance if I am 
> > repeating something.
> 
> I think you've got it right--my implementation seeks to simply sample 
> bit transitions without getting involved in the implementation of the 
> formatting details of IAMs, CRC/ECC--although one would expect that 
> MFM data is still MFM data.  Hence the need for speed and RAM.
> 


I don't see you need to worry, so long as you read back what you write, and
store the ECC in the device...

> At least data rates are fairly standard--5MHz for MFM, 7.5MHz for 2,7 
> RLL.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
> 



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 13:38:21 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 14:38:21 -0400
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FEAE768.16443.63F6E1@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <F5253F38-7D51-4E95-9D78-CB6841ACE060@gmail.com>,
 <CAALmim=kZra5qYE5R1kJ0iwtt+r_VPagC29Wn3qgSu8oAy02Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEAE768.16443.63F6E1@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <32E4D518-9459-443B-A2A2-9F0CEDF08374@gmail.com>

On Jun 27, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 27 Jun 2012 at 13:38, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 12:43 PM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com>
>> wrote: > I don't recall much about the pricing.  Plenty of my friends
>> had C64s...
> 
> Since I'm interested in the topic posted in the title of this thread, 
> exactly how did this get to discussing C64?  Does the C64 use an 
> ST506-type drive?  I didn't think so, but maybe I'm missing a market 
> segment.

OT discussion of Raspberry Pi, which started from someone mentioning
that they were thinking of ways to make a 506 emulator out of one.


- Dave


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Jun 27 14:03:55 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 20:03:55 +0100
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <D7D9C77E92254EFEA05A53E2DC576930@vostro>
References: <D7D9C77E92254EFEA05A53E2DC576930@vostro>
Message-ID: <017e01cd5497$9b0392f0$d10ab8d0$@ntlworld.com>

I am in the UK and interested in DEC gear, and I need an oscilloscope too.
The big non-DEC thing I most want to find is an ASR33 Teletype. Where is the
warehouse?

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Van Peborgh
> Sent: 27 June 2012 08:56
> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
> 
> In September next, I will be emptying a small warehouse of vintage
> computer and electronic items, including oscilloscopes and lots of
> valves/tubes.
> 
> I am trying to ascertain what interest there would be in buying some of
> these items from me.
> 
> peter
> || |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
> Peter Van Peborgh
> 62 St Mary's Rise
> Writhlington  Radstock
> Somerset BA3 3PD
> UK
> 01761 439 234
> || |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |



From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Jun 27 14:07:38 2012
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 21:07:38 +0200
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206270245280.11430@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206260710330.5652@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <20120627085709.c0fb895c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206270245280.11430@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <20120627210738.5b5a9498.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 02:48:34 -0700 (PDT)
Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:

> Very nice.  Prices, not so much.  Thanks for the link though.
If you need something more basic: GNUBLIN (Sorry, German)
http://www.gnublin.org/
No Ethernet, no video, just USB host / device and an assortment of
GPIO, SPI, I2C, RS232, ... in 70x70 mm? running Linux for 49,95 EUR.

[Enclosure for Raspberry Pi]
> Pfft.  http://www.adafruit.com/products/859
Doesn't solve the problem, that you need access to all sides of the box
to connect this or that. You can't simply shove it into a shleve or the
like and connect everything from the front or back. It would have been
easy to put all connectors on one side. But this would require more
PCB real estate and thus increase cost...
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}




From sellam at vintagetech.com  Wed Jun 27 14:06:49 2012
From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 12:06:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: My 'New'/ Never-Used: (Complete) Commodore 64 Computer.--(With all
 peripheral:  hardware/ options/ components/ software, etc..).  (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206271205130.2751@vintagetech.com>


A guy in Brentwood, Tennessee is selling his NIB Commodore 64 system.  See 
details below.  Complete contact information is included (see phone number 
at end of text).

Reply-to: Lawrence.Gallagher at va.gov

--

Sellam Ismail                                                      VintageTech
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger            http://www.vintagetech.com

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 10:15:48 -0400
From: "Gallagher, Lawrence E." <Lawrence.Gallagher at va.gov>
To: vcf at vintage.org
Cc: "Gallagher, Lawrence E." <Lawrence.Gallagher at va.gov>
Subject: My 'New'/ Never-Used: (Complete) Commodore 64 Computer.--(With all
    peripheral:  hardware/ options/ components/ software, etc..). 

  Vintage Computer Collectors:

(Please help me; if possible.).        I am selling my 'new'/
never-used:  Commodore 64 Computer! -(With all/ various:  peripheral
devices/ supplies.). I am the original purchaser of the device.-It has
never been used!  (I need to sell it due to various health problems and
concerns.). 

Please call me; as soon as possible.-I want it all to go to someone who
will appreciate it!

"Thank You!"-

Larry Gallagher        101 Birchwood Court    Brentwood, TN
37027-7806.  

Home: (615) 833-7585.---('Anytime!'). 

Lawrence.gallagher at va.gov





From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Jun 27 14:11:06 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 12:11:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <F5253F38-7D51-4E95-9D78-CB6841ACE060@gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <A090EA3B-8CC2-42F6-A808-D2F4FE3F0C1C@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEnjuvYhvDOjSQAQQHBPXLC6wtE1D_=1zrBD6B_+zWjhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <F5253F38-7D51-4E95-9D78-CB6841ACE060@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120627115453.J37569@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 27 Jun 2012, David Riley wrote:
> But there was a huge push to get Apples in schools here, helped by
> the fact that the state of Minnesota paid for an awful lot of Apple
> II software to be developed (most of my memories of the Apple II
> aside from learning BASIC were from MECC educational games).

At one time, Apple COMPUTER (I don't know whether they were related to the
current "Apple Consumer Electronics"), wanted to DONATE one Apple computer
to every school in the USA.  In exchange, they wanted to be able to deduct
from their taxes at the "warehousing distributor"? price (the lowest price
that Apple sold them for wholesale).  The IRS said, "NO!"  They declared
that Apple could not deduct more than the base cost of the raw materials
used to make the computer - no labor, fixed costs, etc.  The IRS also
cited the spectre that, if they agreed to it, then "EVERY computer company
might do it!"  Can you imagine the consequences to our society if the
schools had excess FREE computers??!?


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Jun 27 14:14:26 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 20:14:26 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor 
In-Reply-To: <4FEAE93A.15439.6B143B@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <mailman.697.1340812260.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <48A0D8102F624698966C0F25C409F078@U260>
 <4FEAE93A.15439.6B143B@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <018201cd5499$13629650$3a27c2f0$@ntlworld.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
> Sent: 27 June 2012 19:07
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: RE: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
> 
> On 27 Jun 2012 at 10:41, Tom Gardner wrote:
> 
> > There has been a lot of discussion on this subject and I have tried to
> > read all of it, but I may have missed a discussion of what I think is
> > the key problem in such a product.  Apologies in advance if I am
> > repeating something.
> 
> I think you've got it right--my implementation seeks to simply sample bit
> transitions without getting involved in the implementation of the
formatting
> details of IAMs, CRC/ECC--although one would expect that MFM data is still
> MFM data.  Hence the need for speed and RAM.
> 
> At least data rates are fairly standard--5MHz for MFM, 7.5MHz for 2,7 RLL.
> 
> --Chuck

Does anyone know if the connectors on the cables are still obtainable?

Regards

Rob



From curt at atarimuseum.com  Wed Jun 27 14:19:05 2012
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 15:19:05 -0400
Subject: Shameless book plug - Happy 40th Atari, Inc.
In-Reply-To: <32E4D518-9459-443B-A2A2-9F0CEDF08374@gmail.com>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <F5253F38-7D51-4E95-9D78-CB6841ACE060@gmail.com>,
 <CAALmim=kZra5qYE5R1kJ0iwtt+r_VPagC29Wn3qgSu8oAy02Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEAE768.16443.63F6E1@cclist.sydex.com>
 <32E4D518-9459-443B-A2A2-9F0CEDF08374@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEB5CA9.9040109@atarimuseum.com>

For those not aware, today marks the 40th anniversary of the 
incorporation of Atari, Inc by Nolan Bushnell and Ted Dabney.

Starting out in a small office on Scott Boulevard in Califrornia, then 
expanding into an old Roller Rink on Martin Ave, Atari grew at an insane 
pace...

For the 40th anniversary, my co-author (Marty Goldberg) and I have the 
first of several Atari History books coming out, this first one is 
called "Atari, Inc. Business is Fun" which covers Atari's formation from 
its early inception in 1969 up to its colossal implosion and sale in 
July of 1984.

To see what the book is all about, as well as read a sneak preview 
chapter from the book, go to www.ataribook.com

Many area's are covered in very extensive detail, such as Ampex, Nutting 
Associates, even for those who are big Chuck E Cheese fans, we've found 
details about its creation that non of the fan sites of even the 
corporate site itself has ever released.    Also of important note is 
the full detailing of the genesis of the Atari Home computers, a story 
never told before.   So if you are a fan or Atari, whether casual or 
looking for more in-depth history and to pull away the fog of myth, lore 
and disinformation, this book will give you the answers you've always 
wanted.

Then...

In December we release book #2 in the series "Atari Corp. Business is 
War" which will detail the take over of Atari's consumer and home 
computer divisions and facilities by Jack Tramiel, the company's rise 
back out from its rubble and the introduction of a whole new breed of 
computer systems, game consoles and stories directly from the people who 
worked there.    History and the media have been harsh to the Tramiels, 
thanks to access to the original mainframe tapes, emails, memo's and 
internal discussions, we've revealed the real truth behind the Tramiels 
and their efforts to resurrect Atari back from the brink.   For those 
who are Amiga fans, they'll want to pay very close attention to both the 
last chapter of Business is Fun and the first chapters of Business is 
War.     We have the actually contracts, correspondence, court 
testimony, depositions and other very revealing documents and 
information showing the true story of Atari, Amiga, Dave Morse, Jack 
Tramiel and a cast of others involved in that highly charged timeframe.


www.ataribook.com


Regards,
Curt






From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Jun 27 15:18:11 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 13:18:11 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor 
In-Reply-To: <018201cd5499$13629650$3a27c2f0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <mailman.697.1340812260.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <4FEAE93A.15439.6B143B@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <018201cd5499$13629650$3a27c2f0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <4FEB0813.1982.E39327@cclist.sydex.com>

On 27 Jun 2012 at 20:14, Rob Jarratt wrote:

> Does anyone know if the connectors on the cables are still obtainable?

A quick web search of "IDC card edge connectors" shows that they're 
still around.

--Chuck



From sellam at vintagetech.com  Wed Jun 27 15:28:19 2012
From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 13:28:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IBM 5150 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1206271327310.2751@vintagetech.com>


An IBM 5150 needs to go to a good home.  See below for details.

Reply-to: autumn.quiles at gmail.com

--

Sellam Ismail                                                      VintageTech
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger            http://www.vintagetech.com

Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 14:33:43 -0400
From: Autumn Q <autumn.quiles at gmail.com>
To: donate at vintage.org
Subject: IBM 5150

Hello,

My Dad kept our first computer, a complete IBM 5150, for many years.  He
was proud to have seen it in the Smithsonian! :)

Dad recently died and, in going through his things, we decided would like
for the 5150 to have a good home.

Do you know anyone who would be interested?

Thanks so much,

Autumn Quiles


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 27 14:37:31 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 20:37:31 +0100 (BST)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206261937490.6326@duo> from "Steven Hirsch" at
 Jun 26, 12 07:40:00 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sjy3V-000J4cC@p850ug1>

> Instead of tying in at the MFM signal level, why not replace the drive 
> controller chip with something that looks like it at the register level?

_What_ disk controller IC? Not all classic computers use a single-chip 
disk cotnrolelr...

A case in point is nthe PERQ 2T2 and 2T4. The disk controller on that is 
part of the EIO (ethernet and input/output) board. That board has a 
couple of hundred ICs on it, so makign a compuete repalceemnt board is a 
lot of work (and it would ruing the history of the machine). The disk 
controller itself is based roudn an AM2910 sequencer running firmware in 
bipolar PROMs. THere's a fair amount of logic, a 16 bit FIFO, and so on. 
Then ther'es the 'DIB' (disk interface board) that sits on top of the 
drive and handles the acutall MFM encoding/decoding.

Oh, and the recoding format is non-stnadard. There are 4 words of 
filesystem pointers in the sector header, for example.

While I undertand  how this thing works -- roughtly -- I'd rather not 
have to modify any part of it. A thign that fits in place of the drive 
would be a lot easier (and, more importantly, would involve les 
modification to the PERQ).

FWIW, I would not consider a ready-built thing to do this. I dont; buy 
electornic devices any more. I want a PCB, a parts list and a source 
listing. That way I can make sure it's built properly.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 27 14:46:38 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 20:46:38 +0100 (BST)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <E1SjgFl-0006u3-Gi@shell.xmission.com> from "Richard" at Jun 26,
 12 06:37:05 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjyCJ-000J4eC@p850ug1>

> > Instead of tying in at the MFM signal level, why not replace the drive 
> > controller chip with something that looks like it at the register level?
> 
> Because in vintage hardware, there's a connector for the drive, not
> the controller chip.

Well, I suppose in devices that do use a (mostly) single-chip controller 
in a DIP package, you could desodler that IC and fit a socket. That would 
carry the necassary data, register select, DMA, etc lines. You could then 
design a device that connected ot that socket in place of the original chip.

But it's not general-purpose.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 27 14:54:43 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 20:54:43 +0100 (BST)
Subject: HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
In-Reply-To: <4FEA8930.3070301@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jun 26,
 12 09:16:48 pm
Message-ID: <m1SjyK8-000J4fC@p850ug1>

> 
> Hi all --
> 
> Picked up a (mostly) complete HP 9885M (8" floppy drive) set up for my 

I know it. I also know how mcuh is missign form the documentation. 

The interface to the host is a 16 bit databus and some control lines. 
I've eyt to finnd any description of the command set, etc. You can deduce 
some of if from the HP900/200 Pascal technical docs (on bitsavers), but...

> HP 9825 computer.  I have the 9885M drive itself, a 98032A interface, 
> and the "Flexible Disk Drive" ROM pak for the 9825.  I am unfortunately 
> missing the "9825A Disk System Cartridge" tape (hp p/n 09885-90035).  

Than you have problems. The ROM is essenmtially a bootstrap. You need the 
system tape to format new disks and write the OS onto them. There was a 
later disk ROM that waslarger (it's one of the few bank-switched ROMs for 
the 9825), but belive-it-or-not disks fromated with that are not 
compatible with the older one AFAIK. 


> Any ideas if this has been archived anywhere?  I haven't found it in my 

Not that I know of. There was, IIRC< no way to copy binary programs on 
the 9825 (well, you could with a 9877 external tepe memory unit, but they 
are ridiculously rare, and the itnerfaces/software for them even rarer). 
So there was no real way to archive this system cartridge :-(

> searches. (Not that I currently have any means to get it onto my 
> 9825...) Looks like this is actually required in order to format disks. 
> Sigh...
> 
> Unfortunately, the drive appears to be failing the built-in diagnostic; 
> there's a single LED that goes on when the test starts and it's supposed 
> to go out within a minute if the diagnostic's passed.  The LED on mine 
> just stays on permanently.  Unfortunately that's the -only- diagnostic 
> indicator on the unit.  I've read through the service manual and unless 
> I'm missing something it doesn't really describe how to go about 
> narrowing down the problem.  There's a flowchart that basically says "if 
> the light doesn't go out, it's a problem with the controller in the 
> drive unit" which seems fairly obvious...

I asusme you've looked at the the schemaitcs and pnaiced. There are a few 
boards of stanadrd logic, things like the disk data shift registers, data 
separateor, etc. And then there's that board with the HP custom 
'nanocontroller' and firmware ROms on it. AFAIK HP never docuemtned this 
nanocontroller, the instruciton set is not known (I would love to be 
wrogn about this) so tryign to disassabmble the firmware is a 
non-starter.... And without knowimg what that firmware is doing you are 
essentailly working blind.

-tony



From peter at vanpeborgh.eu  Wed Jun 27 13:44:37 2012
From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 19:44:37 +0100
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff 
Message-ID: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>

Guys, Guys, Guys...

I am overwhelmed and slightly gobsmacked at the level of interest. I hope I won't disappoint you. Since the stuff is in machester and I am in Somerset (about 200 miles apart within England for those of you in the USofA), I won't know in detail what is involved until I get there at the beginning fo the week when I start clearing out. I do know there are a lot of electronic test equipment including scopes. IBM '60s manuals and hardware descriptions, mag tapes and paper tapes. Lots of valves/tubes also.

Please keep telling me your interests and I will conact relevant people nearer the time.

peter
|| |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
Peter Van Peborgh
62 St Mary's Rise
Writhlington  Radstock
Somerset BA3 3PD
UK
01761 439 234
|| |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 27 15:07:28 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 21:07:28 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 27,
 12 00:50:47 am
Message-ID: <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 06/26/2012 01:23 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> >>  About the Raspberry Pi in particular...I'm having a very hard time
> >> getting excited about it.  It's a neat board, to be sure, but it's onl=
> y
> >> the twentieth or thirtieth design just like it (and nobody got this
> >> excited about its predecessors), and you can't actually GET one withou=
> t
> >> spending months on end on a waiting list.
> >=20
> > I am a bit surprised by the sheer level of hype myself,
> 
>   As am I.  People are talking about it like it's the first small form
> factor Linux machine.

I must admit that I am not overly in favour of the Raspberry pi...

Firstly it seems ot be an overhyped product, and that always seems to 
imply a product that I don;'t want. OK, perhaps that's a bit unfair, but...

The Rpi board is only part of what you need. You also need a PSU, 
keyboard, mouse, USB hub, SD card and some kind of monitor. Even without the 
last, that would essentailyl double the cost of the device. Please don't 
tell me I can find those extras in the trash/junk box. I can't. My junk 
box doesn't contain PC bits. It does contain enugh to build a computer 
from scatch though.

And then there's the OS. From what I understnad the Rpi doesn't come wit 
hthe OS. You have to download it onto an SD card yourself. That's a major 
problem for me. 

The docuemantion is attrocious. I couldn't find a schematic, or a real 
hardware manual. 

>From waht I understnad (and please correct me) the main 'IC' (Acutally a
multichip module I think) on the Rpi is one that was used in some other
large-prodcution device (smartphone?), and the Rpi is using the
'leftovers'. Part of the datasheet on this IC is covered by an NDA. Err,
no thanks. And I am worried that the supply of these ICs will dry up. I 
am not goign to waste my time designing soemthign roudn a board that 
won't be available when I want to make more of them.

> 
> > but I think
> > the extreme cheapness is what is driving people.
> 
>   That must be it.  See below.

But as I saidm, watch for hidden costs...

> 
> > This might be harder
> > to understand in America, where even in bad times, you guys typically
> > have lots more disposable income than we do -
> 
>   I'm afraid this hasn't been true for a while.  Of my "top ten"
> in-person friends, seven are unemployed, five have been unemployed for
> more than two years, and eight have lost their homes.  And they are all
> educated professionals; most are engineers.

It's as bad/worse elswhere. Iv'e not had a paying job for over _15_ years 
now. Of my friends, only _one_ is doing the job he should eb doing, and 
that's becuae he inherrited a company (I don't begrudge him that, he's a 
darn good engineer and will make a sucess of it). 

> 
>   I'm not trying to start an argument, but I must assert that the
> typical "everyone in America is rich" image that many people outside of
> America seem to believe (NOT saying you said that, but it's along the
> same lines) has never been true...but the American propaganda machine is
> perfectly happy to propagate that rumor.  Our roads and bridges are
> crumbling, our homes are owned by banks and rotting/falling down due to
> unoccupancy, adults are living with their parents (I understand this is
> acceptable in other societies, especially in South America...we are very
> different, it means "loser" here), the homeless population is
> overrunning the public parks and soup kitchens...it really is quite a mes=
> s.


I realise it's the same in most western countries (if not most countries) 
now. I have friends in many countries who are competent engineers and who 
can't get jobs, or can only get jobs shelf-stacking or soemthing like 
that which don't use their talents. 

>   Thanks, Wall Street...and my stupid fellow Americans for living beyond

I regaurd much of waht hte City (==Wall Street) does to be a form of 
high-class gambling, and I am still wondering how it actually produces 
anything.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Jun 27 15:44:41 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 21:44:41 +0100 (BST)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <018201cd5499$13629650$3a27c2f0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt"
 at Jun 27, 12 08:14:26 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sjz6U-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> Does anyone know if the connectors on the cables are still obtainable?

The ST506/412 drives had card edges on the PCB for the cables.  Since PCbs
are still being made, you can presumably still etch suitable patterns 
of fingers for this. 

The edge connectors to mate wit hthose (used on the drive end of the 
cables), the 2-row hearer sockets (used on the controller end of the 
cables in many machiens) and the header plugs that were then sodlered to 
the controller board are still, AFAIK, made adn are available from RS 
components, Farnell, etc.

-tony


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Jun 27 15:47:01 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 21:47:01 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor 
In-Reply-To: <4FEB0813.1982.E39327@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <mailman.697.1340812260.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <4FEAE93A.15439.6B143B@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <018201cd5499$13629650$3a27c2f0$@ntlworld.com>
 <4FEB0813.1982.E39327@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <018e01cd54a6$01f944b0$05ebce10$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
> Sent: 27 June 2012 21:18
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: RE: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
> 
> On 27 Jun 2012 at 20:14, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone know if the connectors on the cables are still obtainable?
> 
> A quick web search of "IDC card edge connectors" shows that they're still
> around.
> 
> --Chuck

Thanks, I didn't know what the correct term was for this kind of connector.

Regards

Rob



From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Wed Jun 27 16:08:55 2012
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 23:08:55 +0200
Subject: HP 7970B interface trouble
Message-ID: <003501cd54a9$134d1f40$39e75dc0$@xs4all.nl>

Today I had finally the time to look after my HP 7970B tape drive. 

After cleaning and adjusting the mechanics and electronics and some tests, I
was planning to hook it up to my HP 2113B processor and found out....

I'm having a HP 7970E interface set, the HP 13183A, and I need the HP
13181A/B interfaces.

So if there is someone who wants to trade a set HP 13183A boards with manual
for a set of HP 13181A/B boards I would be very very happy..

 

-Rik

 



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 16:12:57 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 22:12:57 +0100
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff 
In-Reply-To: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
Message-ID: <7A86A2A30D574B70A5F5E67D283A3A61@G4UGMT41>

I am in Manchester, can I help at all?

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Van Peborgh
> Sent: 27 June 2012 19:45
> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff 
> 
> 
> Guys, Guys, Guys...
> 
> I am overwhelmed and slightly gobsmacked at the level of 
> interest. I hope I won't disappoint you. Since the stuff is 
> in machester and I am in Somerset (about 200 miles apart 
> within England for those of you in the USofA), I won't know 
> in detail what is involved until I get there at the beginning 
> fo the week when I start clearing out. I do know there are a 
> lot of electronic test equipment including scopes. IBM '60s 
> manuals and hardware descriptions, mag tapes and paper tapes. 
> Lots of valves/tubes also.
> 
> Please keep telling me your interests and I will conact 
> relevant people nearer the time.
> 
> peter
> || |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
> Peter Van Peborgh
> 62 St Mary's Rise
> Writhlington  Radstock
> Somerset BA3 3PD
> UK
> 01761 439 234
> || |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
> 



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 16:14:06 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 17:14:06 -0400
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
References: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
Message-ID: <CANij+dd66GZO_AmyE9xMB2avyGDfGBCVFz03E7KKDpEZntxB-A@mail.gmail.com>

> IBM '60s manuals and hardware descriptions, mag tapes and paper tapes.

Keep CHM in mind for these (or at least let Al look at the list).

--
Will


From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Wed Jun 27 16:14:21 2012
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 23:14:21 +0200
Subject: HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
In-Reply-To: <m1SjyK8-000J4fC@p850ug1>
References: <4FEA8930.3070301@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jun 26,
 12 09:16:48 pm <m1SjyK8-000J4fC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <003a01cd54a9$d56cdca0$804695e0$@xs4all.nl>

Snip
> > Unfortunately, the drive appears to be failing the built-in
> > diagnostic; there's a single LED that goes on when the test starts and
> > it's supposed to go out within a minute if the diagnostic's passed.
> > The LED on mine just stays on permanently.  Unfortunately that's the
> > -only- diagnostic indicator on the unit.  I've read through the
> > service manual and unless I'm missing something it doesn't really
> > describe how to go about narrowing down the problem.  There's a
> > flowchart that basically says "if the light doesn't go out, it's a
> > problem with the controller in the drive unit" which seems fairly
obvious...
> 
> I asusme you've looked at the the schemaitcs and pnaiced. There are a few
> boards of stanadrd logic, things like the disk data shift registers, data
> separateor, etc. And then there's that board with the HP custom
'nanocontroller'
> and firmware ROms on it. AFAIK HP never docuemtned this nanocontroller,
the
> instruciton set is not known (I would love to be wrogn about this) so
tryign to
> disassabmble the firmware is a non-starter.... And without knowimg what
that
> firmware is doing you are essentailly working blind.
> 
> -tony

Doesn't the nano-controller use the HP 2116 architecture and commands, like
the BPC and other earlier HP processors like the ones in HP 98X0 series ?

-Rik




From robert at irrelevant.com  Wed Jun 27 16:22:25 2012
From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 22:22:25 +0100
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
References: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
Message-ID: <CAApARtu_-4wXsh71+Wq1dhetu6jagnoChPycfCSozQPfzORfYA@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 June 2012 19:44, Peter Van Peborgh <peter at vanpeborgh.eu> wrote:
> Guys, Guys, Guys...
>
> Please keep telling me your interests and I will conact relevant people nearer the time.

I'm close to Manchester.  I'm not into the big iron, unless you turn
up an ex-Prestel GEC box and/or media (whereupon I'd move heaven and
earth to get it), but would be interested in anything Acorn/BBC
related that might show up.  Plus I could probably do with a 'scope if
there is anything small and cheap that I can "just use".

Best wishes,

Rob


From robert at irrelevant.com  Wed Jun 27 16:22:25 2012
From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 22:22:25 +0100
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
References: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
Message-ID: <CAApARtu_-4wXsh71+Wq1dhetu6jagnoChPycfCSozQPfzORfYA@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 June 2012 19:44, Peter Van Peborgh <peter at vanpeborgh.eu> wrote:
> Guys, Guys, Guys...
>
> Please keep telling me your interests and I will conact relevant people nearer the time.

I'm close to Manchester.  I'm not into the big iron, unless you turn
up an ex-Prestel GEC box and/or media (whereupon I'd move heaven and
earth to get it), but would be interested in anything Acorn/BBC
related that might show up.  Plus I could probably do with a 'scope if
there is anything small and cheap that I can "just use".

Best wishes,

Rob


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 16:40:24 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 22:40:24 +0100
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dd66GZO_AmyE9xMB2avyGDfGBCVFz03E7KKDpEZntxB-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A6EB83884DC444E79B72BD8D3997628C@G4UGMT41>

Be expensive to ship to the US and if they have local relevance could our UK
Museums (MOSI in Manchester , TNMOC at Bletchly) have a shout. If the paper
tape is reasonable shape I am pretty sure I can read it and upload the
results to BitSavers if appropriate

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli
> Sent: 27 June 2012 22:14
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
> 
> 
> > IBM '60s manuals and hardware descriptions, mag tapes and 
> paper tapes.
> 
> Keep CHM in mind for these (or at least let Al look at the list).
> 
> --
> Will
> 



From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Jun 27 16:47:35 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 14:47:35 -0700
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dd66GZO_AmyE9xMB2avyGDfGBCVFz03E7KKDpEZntxB-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
 <CANij+dd66GZO_AmyE9xMB2avyGDfGBCVFz03E7KKDpEZntxB-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEB7F77.7000007@bitsavers.org>

On 6/27/12 2:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
>> IBM '60s manuals and hardware descriptions, mag tapes and paper tapes.
>
> Keep CHM in mind for these (or at least let Al look at the list).
>

yes, please.

The custom drive with 16 track magneto-restrictive head arrived last week,
so I'm hoping to be able to read most 1/2" tape formats this fall, esp the
big backlog of 7 tracks we have.





From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Jun 27 17:01:13 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 23:01:13 +0100
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff 
In-Reply-To: <7A86A2A30D574B70A5F5E67D283A3A61@G4UGMT41>
References: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
 <7A86A2A30D574B70A5F5E67D283A3A61@G4UGMT41>
Message-ID: <018f01cd54b0$600aa4e0$201feea0$@ntlworld.com>

And so am I (Stockport actually).

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave
> Sent: 27 June 2012 22:13
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: RE: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
> 
> I am in Manchester, can I help at all?
> 
> Dave Wade G4UGM
> Illegitimi Non Carborundum
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
> > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Van Peborgh
> > Sent: 27 June 2012 19:45
> > To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
> >
> >
> > Guys, Guys, Guys...
> >
> > I am overwhelmed and slightly gobsmacked at the level of interest. I
> > hope I won't disappoint you. Since the stuff is in machester and I am
> > in Somerset (about 200 miles apart within England for those of you in
> > the USofA), I won't know in detail what is involved until I get there
> > at the beginning fo the week when I start clearing out. I do know
> > there are a lot of electronic test equipment including scopes. IBM
> > '60s manuals and hardware descriptions, mag tapes and paper tapes.
> > Lots of valves/tubes also.
> >
> > Please keep telling me your interests and I will conact relevant
> > people nearer the time.
> >
> > peter
> > || |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
> > Peter Van Peborgh
> > 62 St Mary's Rise
> > Writhlington  Radstock
> > Somerset BA3 3PD
> > UK
> > 01761 439 234
> > || |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
> >



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Jun 27 17:03:46 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 23:03:46 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <m1Sjz6U-000J4TC@p850ug1>
References: <018201cd5499$13629650$3a27c2f0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt"
 at Jun 27, 12 08:14:26 pm <m1Sjz6U-000J4TC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <019001cd54b0$baf13680$30d3a380$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell
> Sent: 27 June 2012 21:45
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
> 
> > Does anyone know if the connectors on the cables are still obtainable?
> 
> The ST506/412 drives had card edges on the PCB for the cables.  Since PCbs
> are still being made, you can presumably still etch suitable patterns of
> fingers for this.
> 
> The edge connectors to mate wit hthose (used on the drive end of the
> cables), the 2-row hearer sockets (used on the controller end of the
cables in
> many machiens) and the header plugs that were then sodlered to the
> controller board are still, AFAIK, made adn are available from RS
> components, Farnell, etc.
> 
> -tony

Yes, I realised after sending the email that I would really need the PCB
side of things. I think there are kits for making one-off PCBs, so I could
presumably use one of these. Still, I am a long way off being ready to start
this project, but it is one I do eventually want to get round to.

Regards

Rob



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Jun 27 17:27:55 2012
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 15:27:55 -0700
Subject: Found a Mattel Aquarius
In-Reply-To: <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FEB88EB.1030106@socal.rr.com>

Going through my "junk", unfortunately a bunch of stuff will have to go, 
fortunately time has corrected my mental picture of much of its value 
and its now just old stuff.

Not on that list;

I found what appears to be a new Mattel Aquarius, minus box but still in 
its original bag with Styrofoam packing. I know I have an Intellivision 
around someplace too, but in nothing like this condition.

Three boxes of Aim65, Sym, and Kym stuff, complete boards, parts, some docs.

On the list of things I doubt have any or much value or interest;

Box of 9 track tapes, VHS tapes, Hi8, DAT 120, audio cassettes.

Big box of printer ribbons, much smaller box of HP plotter pens.

Assortment of HP and Compaq 486 and Pentium class desktops, thinking I 
will pick one type and keep two.

Dozen or so IBM PS2 model 25 to I think 95, again thinking I will pick 
one or two specific models and keep two each.

Old big monitors are going to recycle as fast as I dig them out, but 
some are going to be hard for me to toss, two are brand new a Viking and 
a Silcon something, they made medical doc systems I recall.

Bulk are old, but not real old Macs, maybe two dozen SE or SE/30 I have 
stacked around, various pizza boxes and LC types.

Sorry didn't mean to make this into whats going post, but will need to 
make one of those soon enough.

I'm in City of Orange, Cal. Email me directly at mikeford at socal.rr.com 
if your are local and interested in something. Things that do have some 
value I may try selling, but plenty will be free to a good home.

Blame it all on the HOA, after 25 years they have decided no parking on 
the street unless you have two cars in the garage, and no driveway 
parking if any part reaches the curb.


From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 27 17:31:52 2012
From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 18:31:52 -0400
Subject: S-100 8088 CPU board ready for order
Message-ID: <00a801cd54b4$bfefe970$3fcfbc50$@YAHOO.COM>

Hi!  The S-100 8088 CPU board has completed its trace optimization and final
checks.  It is ready to go for PCB manufacturing order.  At the moment there
are 10 PCBs for builders on the waiting list.  There has to be about 20 PCBs
to make an order feasible so if you are interested please let me know.  More
information at the links below:

 

http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/8088%20Board/8088%20CPU%20Board
.htm

 

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder
<http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=S-100%208088%2
0CPU%20board> &param=S-100%208088%20CPU%20board

 

As usual these PCBs will be $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6
elsewhere.  Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch



From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Jun 27 17:39:43 2012
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 17:39:43 -0500
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
References: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
Message-ID: <4FEB8BAF.9020305@charter.net>

The 1960's IBM manuals and mag tapes may be of significant interest.  
The number of people who can recover the information off of 7 track mag 
tapes is small - the ones I know of are in the US (one of whom is a good 
friend).  I'd definitely be interested in a list of what they have.

Jay Jaeger

On 6/27/2012 1:44 PM, Peter Van Peborgh wrote:
> Guys, Guys, Guys...
>
> I am overwhelmed and slightly gobsmacked at the level of interest. I hope I won't disappoint you. Since the stuff is in machester and I am in Somerset (about 200 miles apart within England for those of you in the USofA), I won't know in detail what is involved until I get there at the beginning fo the week when I start clearing out. I do know there are a lot of electronic test equipment including scopes. IBM '60s manuals and hardware descriptions, mag tapes and paper tapes. Lots of valves/tubes also.
>
> Please keep telling me your interests and I will conact relevant people nearer the time.
>
> peter
> || |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
> Peter Van Peborgh
> 62 St Mary's Rise
> Writhlington  Radstock
> Somerset BA3 3PD
> UK
> 01761 439 234
> || |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
>




From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Wed Jun 27 17:53:33 2012
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 23:53:33 +0100
Subject: Found a Mattel Aquarius
In-Reply-To: <4FEB88EB.1030106@socal.rr.com>
References: <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
	<4FEB88EB.1030106@socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqEp=ctweOC=VuAAc_CVjYU70y8YmXRLe+W63ffOj_62kQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:27 PM, Mike Ford <mikeford at socal.rr.com> wrote:
> Going through my "junk", unfortunately a bunch of stuff will have to go,
> fortunately time has corrected my mental picture of much of its value and
> its now just old stuff.
>
> Not on that list;
>
> I found what appears to be a new Mattel Aquarius, minus box but still in its
> original bag with Styrofoam packing. I know I have an Intellivision around
> someplace too, but in nothing like this condition.

You should immediately write a BBS for it.  I would.  I'm a sad, sad man.
-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be
fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better?

Amelia: Yeah.

Doctor: Everything's going to be fine.



From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Wed Jun 27 19:59:48 2012
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:59:48 +1200
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>
	<m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CACaZngkyLV=jgzG-Sh1vrnmD5-s5Fy8G4YCE5s5tn=J1XrjusA@mail.gmail.com>

>I must admit that I am not overly in favour of the Raspberry pi...

It doesn't excite me either, but then I'm not a hard core techie.  I can
see the value of it as a fun educational toy maybe, but...it's not for me.

Re: the second part of this dual thread (America). Most world governments
are weak, financiers/corporates are strong (deregulation in the 1980s
having unleashed unfettered greed), much wealth concentrated in the hands
of too few and stockmarkets are actually casinos. I won't start a political
rant but the only reason people aren't rioting in the streets in Western
countries is because no-one can see (or are too afraid to implement) an
alternative to the broken system we have.

It's depressing.

Unfortunately, globalisation means that even down here in little old New
Zealand my kids are probably going to have it harder than I did.

Terry (tez)


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Thu Jun 28 00:00:07 2012
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 22:00:07 -0700
Subject: HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
In-Reply-To: <m1SjyK8-000J4fC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SjyK8-000J4fC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FEBE4D7.5030709@mail.msu.edu>


On 6/27/2012 12:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>> Hi all --
>>
>> Picked up a (mostly) complete HP 9885M (8" floppy drive) set up for my
> I know it. I also know how mcuh is missign form the documentation.
>
> The interface to the host is a 16 bit databus and some control lines.
> I've eyt to finnd any description of the command set, etc. You can deduce
> some of if from the HP900/200 Pascal technical docs (on bitsavers), but...
>
>> HP 9825 computer.  I have the 9885M drive itself, a 98032A interface,
>> and the "Flexible Disk Drive" ROM pak for the 9825.  I am unfortunately
>> missing the "9825A Disk System Cartridge" tape (hp p/n 09885-90035).
> Than you have problems. The ROM is essenmtially a bootstrap. You need the
> system tape to format new disks and write the OS onto them. There was a
> later disk ROM that waslarger (it's one of the few bank-switched ROMs for
> the 9825), but belive-it-or-not disks fromated with that are not
> compatible with the older one AFAIK.

Do you know what the later ROM's part number is?  Looks like this might 
be easier to track down than a working system tape or creating a new one 
at this point.  Disk compatibility isn't a major concern at this point.

I also have a working 9845, my understanding is that it'll work with the 
9885M as well, any ideas if it also needs a system tape?

>> Any ideas if this has been archived anywhere?  I haven't found it in my
> Not that I know of. There was, IIRC< no way to copy binary programs on
> the 9825 (well, you could with a 9877 external tepe memory unit, but they
> are ridiculously rare, and the itnerfaces/software for them even rarer).
> So there was no real way to archive this system cartridge :-(

That's a shame.  I suppose, given enough spare time, that I could write 
some software to talk to the 9825 over GPIB from a PC (there's the 
HPDrive software which is primarily geared for the 9845 that I suppose 
could be adapted...) and use it to write a tape out... but that would 
require a tape image (or original tape) to copy -from-.


>
>> searches. (Not that I currently have any means to get it onto my
>> 9825...) Looks like this is actually required in order to format disks.
>> Sigh...
>>
>> Unfortunately, the drive appears to be failing the built-in diagnostic;
>> there's a single LED that goes on when the test starts and it's supposed
>> to go out within a minute if the diagnostic's passed.  The LED on mine
>> just stays on permanently.  Unfortunately that's the -only- diagnostic
>> indicator on the unit.  I've read through the service manual and unless
>> I'm missing something it doesn't really describe how to go about
>> narrowing down the problem.  There's a flowchart that basically says "if
>> the light doesn't go out, it's a problem with the controller in the
>> drive unit" which seems fairly obvious...
> I asusme you've looked at the the schemaitcs and pnaiced. There are a few
> boards of stanadrd logic, things like the disk data shift registers, data
> separateor, etc.

I originally looked at the system boards and was hoping that the HP 
house numbers for the chips mapped to a more conventional microprocessor 
/ microcontroller, but that's clearly not the case.

> And then there's that board with the HP custom
> 'nanocontroller' and firmware ROms on it. AFAIK HP never docuemtned this
> nanocontroller, the instruciton set is not known (I would love to be
> wrogn about this) so tryign to disassabmble the firmware is a
> non-starter.... And without knowimg what that firmware is doing you are
> essentailly working blind.

So basically: this is going to be a pretty large challenge to get 
running, assuming I can even find the software to make the 9825 work 
with it in a useful fashion... :)

Thanks,
Josh


>
> -tony
>
>




From n0body.h0me at inbox.com  Thu Jun 28 00:21:24 2012
From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 21:21:24 -0800
Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
In-Reply-To: <07b601cd5293$d79ad0d0$6700a8c0@tababook>
References: <051fd90e662.0000075dn0body.h0me@inbox.com>
 <002101cd514d$65ffb180$31ff1480$@yahoo.com>
 <4fe50782.6000207@bitsavers.org> <4fdf55a4.8000507@arachelian.com>
 <00bb01cd50cf$4d3a6f60$e7af4e20$@yahoo.com>
 <1ee050f4-8ea3-41f1-a006-42edc2a2b6c8@hack.net>
 <4fe504d4.70009@bitsavers.org>
 <29f251df-a70b-4158-939e-78f121b1200d@hack.net>
 <11df01cd4d76$57b4d180$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <2C1F0743CD6.00000627n0body.h0me@inbox.com>

The cartridges I have are identical to the one in the photo.
Still, no takers, though-- If no one has need for these; then
they will go to "The site which must not be named. . ."


Jeff

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com
> Sent: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 02:31:26 -0300
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
> 
> 
>     VERY interesting! In this gallery, there is the recordable disc, the
> recorder and the processor :oO
>     http://www.flickr.com/photos/joachim_s_mueller/3176789343/
> 
>     I'd be ashamed to ask for one of these disks, but it would be a very
> interesting piece, besides a 1.3gb MO disk :D
> 
> ---
> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "N0body H0me" <n0body.h0me at inbox.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 11:55 PM
> Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available
> 
> 
>> 
>> I have two of these "Laser Videodisk Media",
>> new unused condition.  Anyone need these?
>> 
>> They're in Stockton, CA.
>> 
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at
>> http://www.inbox.com/smileys
>> Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk?
>> and
>> most webmails
>> 
>> 
>>

____________________________________________________________
FREE ONLINE PHOTOSHARING - Share your photos online with your friends and family!
Visit http://www.inbox.com/photosharing to find out more!





From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Wed Jun 27 20:05:27 2012
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 21:05:27 -0400
Subject: Strange behavior in the RICM PDP-8/L
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=_XbLm4dxfKqozuy+BsO7sb4URWghqmfvtoX8GVq+SnWQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am hoping that one of you might be able to shed some light on a
strange behavior in the RICM PDP-8/L.

It looks like we have everything working OK except for a strange
behavior when the processor is run at full speed.
Single-stepping Instruction Test 1 works OK, so at least the processor
logic is mostly functional.
We tried just running Instruction Test 1 at full speed, but it halted at 0501.
We looked at the code in that area and found that the contents of
location 0500 was all zeros.

We loaded a little program consisting of: IAC, IAC, JMP .-2 and found
that it would replace the first IAC with zeros.
More experimenting showed that if any of the address bits 6-11 were
on, the program would work OK.
If you run the processor at full speed through an instruction at xx00,
that location is replaced with zeros.

We swapped all of the G221s, G228s, and G224s. None of the module
changes affected the strange behavior.
We swapped the M617 in slot A9, but that didn't make a difference.
The read/re-write current waveforms look OK for all addresses.

At this point we really don't know what is causing this behavior, so
any ideas would be helpful.

-- 
Michael Thompson


From arkaxow at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 01:55:30 2012
From: arkaxow at gmail.com (Jeffrey Brace)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 02:55:30 -0400
Subject: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <m1SjFeu-000J4jC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SjFeu-000J4jC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <E5F42EBA528C4647B70DCD70D984E467@ArkCompNew>

-----Original Message----- 
From: Tony Duell
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 4:13 PM

>> Then I would suggest that, instead of just venting your frustration that
>> troubleshooting and repairing computers sometimes requires knowledge,
>> experience and tools and isn't always easy to do via email without access 
>> to
>> the machine, you accurately describe your symptoms in detail and ask for
>> specific advice on a list like this where folks know what they're talking
>> about; the Vintage Computer Forum is another good place, among others.

That wasn't very helpful Mike ! I have several machines to fix which may or 
may not have the same problem and my point was how to get started and which 
tools to get.  Instead I get "you?re a noob and lazy, go look at this 
reference and figure it out yourself". I have several C64 which may have 
many different problems. I could just pick out one and tell you the symptom 
(no video, power supply good, video cable good monitor good). Now what ? 
There are many possible failures, but one likely one: the PLA chip. Now how 
do I figure out if it is the PLA chip (then how do I remove and which tools 
do I use etc.) ? Logic probe ? Multi-meter ? Oscilloscope ? I don't know how 
to use any of them. I never asked for "specific" advice, only general 
advice. Which tools to get etc.

>There are two possible approaches to giving help with such repairs, which
>could be compared to the 'give an man a fish' .vs. 'teach a man to fish'.

Tony, I understand and agree.

>rather 'teach a man to fish'. Rather than telling them to check this and
>then change that IC, I'd ecplain to them how the thing should work, how to
>check things, and so on. In the end they will learn enough to be able to
>trace faults themselves, and the knowledge of fault diagnosis -- 
>soemthign that seems to be rarely taught -- is preserved. None of us are
>goign to eb around for ever, so it is a Good Thing to pass on our skills
>in this way.

I think a little of both show me how to fix it then have me figure out the 
next one. A little helping, a little trying on my own. All the while 
explaining that is going on and adding knowledge. After all you have to 
start somewhere.

Jeff B 



From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com  Thu Jun 28 02:15:16 2012
From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 08:15:16 +0100
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <CAGN_6pYE1YG=NaEhtZDMzh7TXPb3wOpPsm8-BD6o9tcCNfv5Xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D7D9C77E92254EFEA05A53E2DC576930@vostro>
 <CAGN_6pYE1YG=NaEhtZDMzh7TXPb3wOpPsm8-BD6o9tcCNfv5Xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D9C32D6CC1034069AD5AF8717B4E4CD2@Edicons.local>


I'd be interested both the DEC stuff and the oscilloscopes/valves as I also
do Amateur Radio

Regards 
?
Rod Smallwood
?

-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of David Brownlee
Sent: 27 June 2012 13:29
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff

On 27 June 2012 08:56, Peter Van Peborgh <peter at vanpeborgh.eu> wrote:

> In September next, I will be emptying a small warehouse of vintage
> computer and electronic items, including oscilloscopes and lots of
> valves/tubes.
>
> I am trying to ascertain what interest there would be in buying some of
> these items from me.
>
>
Could definitely be interested in some (relatively :) later VAX era DEC
stuff if there is any :)

Thanks





From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 02:16:00 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 08:16:00 +0100
Subject: Tools was Re: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <E5F42EBA528C4647B70DCD70D984E467@ArkCompNew>
References: <m1SjFeu-000J4jC@p850ug1>
 <E5F42EBA528C4647B70DCD70D984E467@ArkCompNew>
Message-ID: <4FEC04B0.5070706@gmail.com>

I think at some time you may well come across issues with dead 
capacitors and you may need to diagnose capacitors. I know you can get 
ESR (effective Series Resistance?) Meters but I wondered how good these 
were and if any one had any experience of using them.

-- 
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



From pye at mactec.com.au  Thu Jun 28 03:49:00 2012
From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:49:00 +1000
Subject: Tools was Re: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <4FEC04B0.5070706@gmail.com>
References: <m1SjFeu-000J4jC@p850ug1>
 <E5F42EBA528C4647B70DCD70D984E467@ArkCompNew> <4FEC04B0.5070706@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <28ADBCDF-5818-4D31-8E26-704F0F732AF8@mactec.com.au>


On 28/06/2012, at 5:16 PM, Dave Wade wrote:

> I think at some time you may well come across issues with dead capacitors and you may need to diagnose capacitors. I know you can get ESR (effective Series Resistance?) Meters but I wondered how good these were and if any one had any experience of using them.


I have one of these:  http://www.anatekcorp.com/blueesr.htm  and find it very handy especially for finding faulty caps in poorly designed power supplies (found in many LCD monitors and TV's), as well as vintage stuff.  Being a fairly accurate low ohms meter, it can be used for many other purposes as well..

I built it as a kit, which would be a great start for a beginner, as you end up with a useful bit of test gear as well as learning some basic assembly skills.


Chris


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Thu Jun 28 04:36:07 2012
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 04:36:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: dc fans
In-Reply-To: <4FEA473D.2954.318E7B4@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <1340767630.86518.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4FEA473D.2954.318E7B4@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206280433100.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Tue, 26 Jun 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 26 Jun 2012 at 20:27, Chris Tofu wrote:
>
>> black and red leads are labeled, white is not. Speed control? From
>> large Sun servers OOPS! Sorry. But can someone inform regardless, and
>> what kind of signal/circuit is required to control the speed, if thats
>> the case. Cant successfully look it up now, its this stupid phone.
>
> Consult the datasheet for the fan.  Third leads are not always tach
> sensors--and less likely to be so the further one goes back.  During
> the 1990s, one very common use was a "locked rotor alarm"--low while
> the fan is spinning, but high when the fan is stuck.  This was very
> often the case when fan noise wasn't an issue, but an alarm was
> desired should the fan fail.
>
> I have several Panaflo fans with this 3-wire configuration.  I've
> read complaints from puzzled users of secondhand 3-wire fans
> wondering why they get no tach reading when the fan is used in a
> (semi) modern PC with speed control.

Not only that, but the 3rd wire can also sometimes be a 2-speed selection 
signal.

Some of the many wiring options for ADDA fans can be found here:
http://www.addausa.com/options/options-index.html


From david at cantrell.org.uk  Thu Jun 28 05:50:33 2012
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:50:33 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 09:07:28PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
> > On 06/26/2012 01:23 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> > >>  About the Raspberry Pi in particular...I'm having a very hard time
> > >> getting excited about it.  It's a neat board, to be sure, but it's onl=
> > y
> > >> the twentieth or thirtieth design just like it (and nobody got this
> > >> excited about its predecessors), and you can't actually GET one withou=
> > t
> > >> spending months on end on a waiting list.
> > >=20
> > > I am a bit surprised by the sheer level of hype myself,
> > 
> >   As am I.  People are talking about it like it's the first small form
> > factor Linux machine.

Price.  That's what's exciting about it.

> The Rpi board is only part of what you need. You also need a PSU, 
> keyboard, mouse, USB hub, SD card and some kind of monitor. Even without the 
> last, that would essentailyl double the cost of the device. Please don't 
> tell me I can find those extras in the trash/junk box. I can't. My junk 
> box doesn't contain PC bits. It does contain enugh to build a computer 
> from scatch though.

But most normal people who might be interested *do* have all of those.

> And then there's the OS. From what I understnad the Rpi doesn't come wit 
> hthe OS. You have to download it onto an SD card yourself. That's a major 
> problem for me. 

If downloading it and putting it onto an SD card is too difficult, then
Farnell or RS will be happy to sell you an SD card with an OS installed.
If it came with an OS, that would make it more expensive (don't forget,
even free software has costs) and it's likely that a lot of users would
blow it away and replace it with some other flavour of Linux anyway.

> The docuemantion is attrocious. I couldn't find a schematic, or a real 
> hardware manual. 

Errm, what consumer electronics comes with a schematic these days?  The
information that normal people will need - people who want to build
peripherals, or interface it with other stuff, not just people who want
to use it as a cheap media player - is available on the website.

> > > the extreme cheapness is what is driving people.
> >   That must be it.  See below.
> But as I saidm, watch for hidden costs...

They're not hidden.

-- 
David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive

    It's my experience that neither users nor customers can articulate
    what it is they want, nor can they evaluate it when they see it
        -- Alan Cooper


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Thu Jun 28 06:40:52 2012
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 06:40:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Art of Electronics (was: BEGINNER getting started)
In-Reply-To: <m1SjFDQ-000J4fC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SjFDQ-000J4fC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206280638170.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:

>> If my books were well organized and shelved, I'd probably have a
>> frightfully large electricity and electronics section between US Navy
>> and civilian books on the subject.
>
> I keep on fidning books I'd forgotten I owned. The other day I foudn a
> book on telephones from 1911. It's fascinating.,..
>
>>
>> Since the original topic appears to be the Commodore 64, didn't there
>> used to be a book or two on the subject of repairing them?  I'm
>> pretty sure I have a couple in my library (I know I have or had a
>> couple for the early Macs).
>
> Such books gernally fall into 2 classes..
>
> The origianl service manual for the C64 (I think I have it somewhere) is
> jsut schematic sand parts lists. The poitn is that an experienced
> engineer doens't ened anything more. He/she knows how a computer works,
> knows aht the ICs do, etc. So all that's needed is a description of how
> they go togehter.
>
> The second class tend to be lists of stock faults -- if toy get this
> problem, chanve that IC. As I mentioned, they work most of the time, but
> not all the time, and I'd rahther learn (and teach) general methods that
> work all the time and which cna be easily adapted to other devices
>
> That aaid, I have seend a 'Sams Compufact' manual for the 1541 disk
> drive, and I assuem there must have been one fro the C64 too. It's pretty
> good. It does incldue the schematics. It doesn include proper
> fault-tracing infroamtion. It does have fault-didnign flowcharts that
> will work. Might be worth tryign to find the C64 one.

I don't know if this helps, but the 1985 Sams Photofact Index I have here 
had two entries under 'Commodore':

VIC20 (REV. C) -CC3
64 -CC4


From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 07:17:01 2012
From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:17:01 +0200
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CAJ0dHHwZoYOdf5+Nj2=aU=eTBTvyUGR6zGZQWPDPfo=AEzBjpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I must admit that I am not overly in favour of the Raspberry pi...

What do you mean? Not in favour of it having been built? It being
marketed the way it is? Its design?

_You_ might not need it, or want it (as you say below) but that's OK,
noone is forcing you to buy one...  But you make is sound as though
you think OTHER people should not buy it.  There are many good reasons
why many people should NOT buy the R?.

> Firstly it seems ot be an overhyped product, and that always seems to
> imply a product that I don;'t want. OK, perhaps that's a bit unfair, but...

While I kind of agree, it is a useful and perhaps _necessary_ thing to
do to make it work economically.  You need the economics of scale to
make a device like this cheap.  You want the mindshare in the general
(and specialist) community to create resources; documentation;
extensions, etc, etc.

As I mentioned above myself, I agree it's the wrong thing to buy for
many people even if they want one, and part of that _is_ due to the
hype.  Typically it's not due to the reason that it's not a good thing
for you, Tony, but because they think it's something that it's not - a
cheap desktop replacement or a ready-to-go game console or media
player.  As for the reasons you mentioned...

> The Rpi board is only part of what you need. You also need a PSU,
Have something that can produce 5V?  Got a cell phone charger?

> keyboard, mouse, USB hub, SD card and some kind of monitor.

Ok, I can appreciate you not having a USB kbd or mouse, the hub is not
really needed, but the video can be on the composite out.  I am fairly
certain you have _some_ display that can handle composite.

But of course to become popular, they have to aim the device at what
their target audience _today_ would typically have lying about.  I
would think you'd be insulted if you'd be classified a typical
anything :-)

> Even without the
> last, that would essentailyl double the cost of the device. Please don't
> tell me I can find those extras in the trash/junk box. I can't. My junk
> box doesn't contain PC bits. It does contain enugh to build a computer
> from scatch though.

At any largish garage sale, the bits could be picked up for less than
10 euros.  So I think its reasonable to assume that many other people
have the things to make the R? work in their junk piles.

> The docuemantion is attrocious. I couldn't find a schematic, or a real
> hardware manual.

Different times again.  You would prefer paper documentation (I'm
assuming this, let's be hypothetical).  That'd be great, but would
significantly add to costs, esp. w.r.t. shipping.  These days - what
the kids are into on the intertubes - is to have a wiki.  Here.
http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoard

Schematics? Datasheets? Here. http://elinux.org/RPi_Hardware

> From waht I understnad (and please correct me) the main 'IC' (Acutally a
> multichip module I think) on the Rpi is one that was used in some other
> large-prodcution device (smartphone?), and the Rpi is using the
> 'leftovers'. Part of the datasheet on this IC is covered by an NDA. Err,
> no thanks. And I am worried that the supply of these ICs will dry up. I
> am not goign to waste my time designing soemthign roudn a board that
> won't be available when I want to make more of them.

You make it sound as though the R? is sourced from overstock, or
end-run of a product line.  I'd be very surprised if that is the case.

Joe.
-- 
Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Jun 28 07:22:23 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 08:22:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
Message-ID: <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> The docuemantion is attrocious.  I couldn't find a schematic, or a
>> real hardware manual.
> Errm, what consumer electronics comes with a schematic these days?

Just because it's common doesn't make it any less atrocious.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at  Thu Jun 28 07:44:36 2012
From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:44:36 +0200
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
Message-ID: <20120628144436.Horde.KQnOKUv4Cn9P7FG0Te6nYrA@webmail.domainplanet.at>

Hi,

  maybe I missed something, but is there a list of that stuff available?

  Thanks a lot.

  With best regards

  Gerhard
  OE3GKC


From md.benson at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 08:20:11 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:20:11 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>

I don't talk much on here because most of the time I am in awe of most
of you guys fixing things and sharing knowledge at levels I don't have
the tools or the talent to aspire to, and hays off it's awesome.

Fact is though, this thread is starting to have echoes of that guy at
HP that said he could only see a market for 5 computers at most.

I have a Raspberry Pi and run it 24/7 as an emulated VAX 3900 using
SimH. It does a damn good job of it too.

Here's the rub on Raspberry Pi  as I see it:

It's cheap, magnitudes cheaper than any of that POC Dell or Acer stuff
you buy for GBP 299 which has *most* of the same drawbacks (no docs,
no schematics, etc). This means you get what you pay for on Raspberry
Pi and those systems are exposed for the overpriced hunks of junk they
really are. You get a board for your 35 bucks. You can do what you
like with it. No frills, no BS. There's even some good community
support that's free as in beer.

It's real. It's not some imaginary vapourware project that'll never
see the light of day. Availability can be sketchy but that'll improve
as demand normalises.

It runs free software. No Windows license, no Microsoft guff.

It's accessible (not everywhere, but it is) - it has GPIO which is
open and usable and useful, USB, ethernet etc.

Sure, you need a few extras. Most of them are cheap and available. Oh
and guess what. Buy a fancy BeagleBoard or an Atom ITX board,
something that costs anything from 2x to 6x as much and you... STILL
need all the extras. To use a horrid management phrase, it's the Total
Cost of Ownership where the impact is.

Sure it takes some time fooling about, but that's part of the fun.
This is a platform for goofing about with, not running JP Morgan's
Oracle stack.

Stop being so down on it. It's a great idea and will go far because
the sheer variety of stuff you can use it for and the price of it
means it's going to be something people don't fear buying because of
loss of investment.

The hardware itself isn't gonna set the world on fire (at 2W it barely
gets warm enough to start one) but that's not the point. The Broadcom
SoC is a run-of-the-mill cellphone chip. It isn't fast, the SD card
I/O is pretty slow (4-5MB/s which is little more than a DEC RA92 disk)
and the power to the USB ports isn't sufficient but you can work
around them or just live with it. It cost 35 bucks for pete's sake.

So cut em some slack, they are trying to do something rare and
enlightened in an industry that increasingly is more interested in
turning us into cloud-based service-locked-in drones.

-- 
Mark Benson

http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson


From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 08:22:16 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:22:16 +0200
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
Message-ID: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Do you guys know of a failsafe way to check if a Teletype is for 110
or 220V? I've bought one which has a power connector which seems like
US mains. The motor is 50Hz, but I guess that won't make a difference.
Any quick way to check without completely dismantling the machine?

re,

Sander

-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From wolfgang at eichberger.org  Thu Jun 28 08:53:44 2012
From: wolfgang at eichberger.org (Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:53:44 +0200
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <20120628144436.Horde.KQnOKUv4Cn9P7FG0Te6nYrA@webmail.domainplanet.at>
References: <20120628144436.Horde.KQnOKUv4Cn9P7FG0Te6nYrA@webmail.domainplanet.at>
Message-ID: <CANJYbi8-ggQcaHw_TuY1kRPB-EHX8P8X3a=0V2AAOE41JqL72w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Gerhard,

unfortunately there's no list availabe at the moment - but I may have
missed something too.

Regards,

Wolfgang

PS: Ich habe einen Haufen Daten verloren.... wollte ich Dir nicht ein Buch
schicken?

2012/6/28 DI Gerhard Kreuzer <gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at>

> Hi,
>
>  maybe I missed something, but is there a list of that stuff available?
>
>  Thanks a lot.
>
>  With best regards
>
>  Gerhard
>  OE3GKC
>


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 08:56:18 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 09:56:18 -0400
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <100019EB-5D01-47A6-84CD-423B9F88B3C7@gmail.com>

On Jun 27, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote:

> I must admit that I am not overly in favour of the Raspberry pi...
> 
> ...
> 
> The docuemantion is attrocious. I couldn't find a schematic, or a real 
> hardware manual. 

Well, for all it's worth, there *is* a schematic...

http://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Raspberry-Pi-Schematics-R1.0.pdf

The hardware documentation is basically in the form of a Wiki, which
I guess is how people handle documentation when they don't really
want to write documentation themselves (sometimes, it works; I'd
call the RPi Wiki a semi-success, because it's still really poorly
organized).  There is a datasheet, though, that covers most of the
actual peripherals except for the video portion and a few others:

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1521578.pdf

As you've noted, it's somewhat redacted.  To be honest, it's a lot
better than what I expected, given that it's a Broadcom part.  We
have to deal with Broadcom parts at work from time to time, and
getting datasheets out of them is worse than pulling teeth.  For
one thing, we're a small consulting house, so they typically won't
even deal with us until we get our larger customers involved. Then
their lawyers make us sign a contract in blood promising our
firstborn children if we ever let their SENSITIVE TRADE SECRETS
(i.e., register maps) into the hands of their sworn enemies. After
all that, they wouldn't even give us a damned PDF; one person got
a hardcopy in a binder (because apparently copying machines no
longer exist?) to share amongst a team of 5 people.

So yeah, while it's not *ideal*, it's a lot more than I ever
expected the cyborg ultra-lawyers at Broadcom to approve.

> From waht I understnad (and please correct me) the main 'IC' (Acutally a
> multichip module I think) on the Rpi is one that was used in some other
> large-prodcution device (smartphone?), and the Rpi is using the
> 'leftovers'. Part of the datasheet on this IC is covered by an NDA. Err,
> no thanks. And I am worried that the supply of these ICs will dry up. I 
> am not goign to waste my time designing soemthign roudn a board that 
> won't be available when I want to make more of them.

Well, yeah.  The entire budget of the project is basically built on
volume, since that drives the cost of silicon down.  Broadcom won't
even deal with you unless you're planning to make tens of thousands
of units (or have REALLY deep pockets, like one of our customers).
I think the entire release of the board was made possible only
because one of the founders works at Broadcom and co-developed the
SoC that serves as the CPU.

So yes, if they used a commodity chip that didn't have the RAM
stacked up on it, that would drive the cost up and they'd no longer
be able to sell the base model for $25 (or ?15 or whatever it is
over there).  That's a tradeoff, I suppose; for a device that is
priced essentially at the "expendable" price point, it's one I'm
willing to take.

I agree, I wouldn't want to design anything around it that wasn't
a one-off.  I don't think that was ever the intention of the whole
project (it was to get computers in the hands of kids, which it
seems to be doing well enough and will probably do better once
they reach capacity).  You can still make some pretty cool stuff,
though.

I'm not trying to persuade you to go out and buy one, because
that would be silly (I doubt you'd use it that much, since you
don't have most of the peripherals to attach to it), but I think
in the scheme of what it's meant for (and a few other things as
well), it's a great concept.


- Dave







From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Jun 28 09:24:49 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:24:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <201206281424.KAA02273@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> It's cheap, magnitudes cheaper than any of that POC Dell or Acer
> stuff you buy for GBP 299 which has *most* of the same drawbacks (no
> docs, no schematics, etc).

Most - all? - of the people complaining about lack of documentation for
the Pi _aren't_ buying Dell or Acer or whatever.  I know I certainly am
not.  (I have some such machines.  I paid nothing for them beyond my
time-&-trouble to get them home from wherever they were being junked.)

> To use a horrid management phrase, it's the Total Cost of Ownership
> where the impact is.

For some people.  People who discuss TCO usually ignore non-monetary
costs.  I play with computers because I enjoy it.  If I don't enjoy
playing with machine XYZ, there is, quite literally, no point, even if
its TCO is zero - and effective inability to dig into the guts of the
machine impairs my enjoyment.  For some here - tony comes to mind as a
likely candidate - it may actually push a machine's worth negative.
For me it doesn't, or I wouldn't have those peecees, even though they
cost me $0; some of my playing with computers uses them purely as
abstract computron sources, and the peecees work very well for that.

> This is a platform for goofing about with, not running JP Morgan's
> Oracle stack.

Is it documented even enough for that?  Or does hardware documentation
mean reverse-engineering existing Linux code?  (I actually don't know;
what little I've heard of the Pi hasn't gone into enough detail to tell
whether running my own code on it is feasible or whether someone who
wants to talk to the hardware has to reverse-engineer existing source
(or, worse, binary) drivers.)

> Stop being so down on it.  [...]
> So cut em some slack, they are trying to do something rare and
> enlightened in an industry that increasingly is more interested in
> turning us into cloud-based service-locked-in drones.

As much as I agree with your basic message - or at least what I think
it is - I do see a risk, a risk that the Pi will tend to produce yet
more people who are used to computers being undocumented hardware
blobs.  It's admittedly better than your typical peecee, in that the
latter applies that to software as well as hardware, but "it's better
than this other thing" is not inconsistent with "it could be so much
better than it is".

There's also an important implicit note (which, to be fair, lots of
other people forget/miss too): (almost?) everyone's remarks should be
taken with an implicit "in my opinion" and/or "for my purposes"
qualifier.  That ?300 Dell you mentioned, for example, is not worth
even 10 quid to me - but that's very much a personal statement.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
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From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Jun 28 09:37:46 2012
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 09:37:46 -0500
Subject: Strange behavior in the RICM PDP-8/L
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=_XbLm4dxfKqozuy+BsO7sb4URWghqmfvtoX8GVq+SnWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH1BU=_XbLm4dxfKqozuy+BsO7sb4URWghqmfvtoX8GVq+SnWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEC6C3A.6080204@charter.net>

So, presumably in this situation the core is read out, but not written 
back, under dynamic/full speed conditions.

Perhaps something interferes with the write-back portion of the cycle 
under these conditions?  Given that it only happens under dynamic 
conditions, presumably a timing relationship issue?

That would explain why you didn't find anything wrong in the core unit 
or its associated circuits.

So maybe a little test program that does something like this:

xx00    IAC
xx01    IAC
xx02    Restore IAC instruction to xx00
xx03    JMP xx00

Then trigger on the fetch of that first instruction as you look about 
with the scope.


On 6/27/2012 8:05 PM, Michael Thompson wrote:
> I am hoping that one of you might be able to shed some light on a
> strange behavior in the RICM PDP-8/L.
>
> It looks like we have everything working OK except for a strange
> behavior when the processor is run at full speed.
> Single-stepping Instruction Test 1 works OK, so at least the processor
> logic is mostly functional.
> We tried just running Instruction Test 1 at full speed, but it halted at 0501.
> We looked at the code in that area and found that the contents of
> location 0500 was all zeros.
>
> We loaded a little program consisting of: IAC, IAC, JMP .-2 and found
> that it would replace the first IAC with zeros.
> More experimenting showed that if any of the address bits 6-11 were
> on, the program would work OK.
> If you run the processor at full speed through an instruction at xx00,
> that location is replaced with zeros.
>
> We swapped all of the G221s, G228s, and G224s. None of the module
> changes affected the strange behavior.
> We swapped the M617 in slot A9, but that didn't make a difference.
> The read/re-write current waveforms look OK for all addresses.
>
> At this point we really don't know what is causing this behavior, so
> any ideas would be helpful.
>




From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Jun 28 05:11:02 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 03:11:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/?
 adaptor
In-Reply-To: <100019EB-5D01-47A6-84CD-423B9F88B3C7@gmail.com>
References: <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <100019EB-5D01-47A6-84CD-423B9F88B3C7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206280307450.27841@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, David Riley wrote:

>> From waht I understnad (and please correct me) the main 'IC' (Acutally a
>> multichip module I think) on the Rpi is one that was used in some other
>> large-prodcution device (smartphone?), and the Rpi is using the
>> 'leftovers'. Part of the datasheet on this IC is covered by an NDA. Err,
>> no thanks. And I am worried that the supply of these ICs will dry up. I
>> am not goign to waste my time designing soemthign roudn a board that
>> won't be available when I want to make more of them.
>
> Well, yeah.  The entire budget of the project is basically built on
> volume, since that drives the cost of silicon down.  Broadcom won't
> even deal with you unless you're planning to make tens of thousands
> of units (or have REALLY deep pockets, like one of our customers).
> I think the entire release of the board was made possible only
> because one of the founders works at Broadcom and co-developed the
> SoC that serves as the CPU.
>

I don't know about the "leftovers" part.  They must have had a LOT of them 
if so - while the first batch was 10,000 units, they've gotten orders for 
at least 400,000 and they're well on the way to meeting (or have already 
met) those orders now.

Frankly, I love the stupid little thing.  It has huge potential to affect 
my "main" hobby by driving down the prices of flight simulator avionics 
for the hobbyist. :)

g.



-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 09:47:28 2012
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:47:28 -0400
Subject: Southern haulage
Message-ID: <CANij+deBWL6Dsp4zWE-2n-80JjhT-E8MLyZ3_33U6hqX=5sYWg@mail.gmail.com>

I am planning to take a Southern roadtrip sometime soon (one or two
months away) to pick up some gear, and should have space to haul
something for someone (or someones). Hudson Valley, NY to mid-PA to
Orlando, FL, and all points between. I could probably handle a small
rack, like a five footer.

If anyone needs something moved that fits my van, please contact me off list.

Prices are pretty damn reasonable...

--
Will


From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Thu Jun 28 09:59:21 2012
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:59:21 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206280307450.27841@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <100019EB-5D01-47A6-84CD-423B9F88B3C7@gmail.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206280307450.27841@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqF8z=FCDEt=dYc=zpGzC6jAsXG-VgrdXAEpZ2=HuqJqSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:

> I don't know about the "leftovers" part. ?They must have had a LOT of them
> if so - while the first batch was 10,000 units, they've gotten orders for at
> least 400,000 and they're well on the way to meeting (or have already met)
> those orders now.
>
> Frankly, I love the stupid little thing. ?It has huge potential to affect my
> "main" hobby by driving down the prices of flight simulator avionics for the
> hobbyist. :)

I don't understand the controversy.  These things are being sold as
"toy's", right, at toy prices.  I think that's a great deal... if you
don't like the idea of having to work stuff out for yourself, there
are plenty of folks selling non toys at much higher prices.

I want to send one into orbit in a micro satellite or something...
-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be
fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better?

Amelia: Yeah.

Doctor: Everything's going to be fine.



From doc at vaxen.net  Thu Jun 28 10:02:20 2012
From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:02:20 -0500
Subject: Art of Electronics
In-Reply-To: <4FE9DBD1.8050702@neurotica.com>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]>
 <07b101cd5292$837ea3b0$6700a8c0@tababook>
 <20120625113520.G65869@shell.lmi.net>
 <201206260448.q5Q4mPkt063592@billy.ezwind.net> <4FE9BE56.9060609@verizon.net>
 <4FE9DBD1.8050702@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4FEC71FC.6020809@vaxen.net>

On 6/26/12 10:57 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 06/26/2012 09:51 AM, Keith Monahan wrote:
>> If microcode is referring to USPS Media Mail delivery in the US, be
>> aware that it can definitely take the better part of a month to be
>> delivered.  I ordered a book from a seller (different service than abe)
>> and they shipped it media mail.  It took upwards of three weeks, and was
>> not the right book(very similar title, same author/publisher, so mistake
>> seemed honest enough).  Shipped it back, and then they shipped the right
>> one.  It took almost two months to get what I ordered.
>>
>> I'll always be paying an extra $10 for faster shipping --- whether the
>> book is a $4.00 book or not.
>>
>> The shipper was only located a few states away on the East Coast.  I
>> joked about being able to walk the distance in a shorter time.
>
>    It continually amazes me that that organization is still in business.
>   It surely wouldn't be if the gov't wasn't propping it up.


   It ain't really the government propping up USPS, it's the dead-tree 
spammers.  A post office manager-type told me recently that bulk mail is 
USPS's "primary profit center".

   Which is why nobody cares whether you want all that crap or not - you 
can't turn it off and you can't request that they deliver mail addressed 
only to specific residents.


	Doc


From quapla at xs4all.nl  Thu Jun 28 10:13:08 2012
From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:13:08 +0200
Subject: 2x RA-60 + packs
In-Reply-To: <63dbe1de35bbcf650fb609c0ef0c90d0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
References: <63dbe1de35bbcf650fb609c0ef0c90d0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <59e51c4dff49b1c34ebba39fbd0f611f.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>


The drives and packs have been taken.

Ed

>
> As I'm getting rid of 'non classical PDP-11' equipment, I have 2 RA-60's
> and 5 RA-60 packs which will have to go. Asking price is Eur 250 for the
> lot.
>
> Although both were working when put in storage, they have developed a
> (small?) fault. One spins up but does not do a head load, the other
> does not spin up, could be minor fault or else make 1 drive out of these
> 2.
>
> Comes with a KDA-50 (QBus) or UDA-50 (Unibus), depending on choice.
>
> Pickup only (near Arnhem, Netherlands) due to the weight of these drives.
>
> Ed
>
> --
> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
> Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.
>
>


-- 
Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter.



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Jun 28 10:27:06 2012
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 09:27:06 -0600
Subject: Art of Electronics
In-Reply-To: <4FEC71FC.6020809@vaxen.net>
References: <m1SisPr-000J4WC@p850ug1> <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>
 <EF54D088-4CAB-4ADD-8E60-14127C5A4FD4@gmail.com>
 <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <p0624081fcc0d7bb537e9@[192.168.1.199]>
 <07b101cd5292$837ea3b0$6700a8c0@tababook>
 <20120625113520.G65869@shell.lmi.net>
 <201206260448.q5Q4mPkt063592@billy.ezwind.net> <4FE9BE56.9060609@verizon.net>
 <4FE9DBD1.8050702@neurotica.com> <4FEC71FC.6020809@vaxen.net>
Message-ID: <4FEC77CA.8020406@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 6/28/2012 9:02 AM, Doc wrote:

>    Which is why nobody cares whether you want all that crap or not - you
> can't turn it off and you can't request that they deliver mail addressed
> only to specific residents.
>

In Canada you can do that. I think they charge you for that option.

>      Doc
>
>
Ben.



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 28 12:02:17 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:02:17 -0700
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEC2BA9.1076.4B4A79@cclist.sydex.com>

On 28 Jun 2012 at 15:22, Sander Reiche wrote:

> Do you guys know of a failsafe way to check if a Teletype is for 110
> or 220V? I've bought one which has a power connector which seems like
> US mains. The motor is 50Hz, but I guess that won't make a difference.
> Any quick way to check without completely dismantling the machine?

If the motor is verifiably 50Hz, the probability is overwhelming that 
it's 220V. However, you might post a photo of the power connector 
somewhere--there are countries (e.g. Australia) with 220V 50Hz power 
where the mains connector looks a lot like a North American 2-blade 
connector.

--Chuck



From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 13:11:00 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:11:00 +0200
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <4FEC2BA9.1076.4B4A79@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEC2BA9.1076.4B4A79@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CACStewZ1_3D8gkPdgraKMO=oB1apnF41q1D_O8qQYEG2SuR87Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 7:02 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>
> If the motor is verifiably 50Hz, the probability is overwhelming that
> it's 220V. However, you might post a photo of the power connector
> somewhere--there are countries (e.g. Australia) with 220V 50Hz power
> where the mains connector looks a lot like a North American 2-blade
> connector.

Sorry for the atrocious quality, but it's getting dusky here ;)

http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/220v1.jpg
http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/220v2.jpg
http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/220v3.jpg

re,

Sander

-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From julian at twinax.org  Thu Jun 28 13:20:05 2012
From: julian at twinax.org (Julian Wolfe)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 13:20:05 -0500
Subject: Selling my CT63(CT60) 68060-accelerated Falcon
In-Reply-To: <90E996FBDA4A43909C69F9970D3BF5ED@G4UGMT41>
References: <CAOFHNokjBBoqkbpTjGiQ1MjNQ7jRROvv+c+hKoTcMuiidaaO6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <90E996FBDA4A43909C69F9970D3BF5ED@G4UGMT41>
Message-ID: <CAOFHNo=8w1kg4k1wuGBFYaFfRi_kA+ze6rqDSkqVoggEKajT2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, but I'm unwilling to work outside of ebay's international shipping
methods any longer, just as a word of warning.  I was burned once, won't do
it again.

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Dave <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:

> would you ship the software to the UK?
>
> Dave Wade G4UGM
> Illegitimi Non Carborundum
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
> > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Julian Wolfe
> > Sent: 27 June 2012 18:35
> > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: Selling my CT63(CT60) 68060-accelerated Falcon
> >
> >
> > So, I've set to selling my Falcon and its software.
> >
> > It's just the board, with accelerator and memory.
> >
> > http://www.ebay.com/itm/160832830585?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
> &_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_1413
>
>
> The software is a separate auction but includes NVDI 5, N.AES 2.0, MagiC 6,
> and CD Writer Suite 4 with ExtenDOS.
>
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160832836938#ht_500wt_141
> 3
>
>
> Thanks for looking.
>
> Julian
>
>
>


From lists at loomcom.com  Thu Jun 28 13:42:11 2012
From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 14:42:11 -0400
Subject: Emulex QD21 firmware
In-Reply-To: <4FE9EFAC.6020005@gmail.com>
References: <4FE9EFAC.6020005@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120628184211.GA326@mail.loomcom.com>

* On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 01:21:48PM -0400, Jonathan Gevaryahu <jgevaryahu at gmail.com> wrote:
> Seth,
> Can you dump the EPROMS of the old Rev. D firmware before replacing
> them? I'm interested in tracking what changed over the different
> firmware revisions.

I was wrong about my firmware version. I had Rev C, which is one of the
ones Glen Slick has already dumped. If someone else has Rev. D, it'd be
nice to have that for comparison too.

-Seth


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Jun 28 13:53:16 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:53:16 -0700
Subject: Selling my CT63(CT60) 68060-accelerated Falcon
In-Reply-To: <CAOFHNokjBBoqkbpTjGiQ1MjNQ7jRROvv+c+hKoTcMuiidaaO6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOFHNokjBBoqkbpTjGiQ1MjNQ7jRROvv+c+hKoTcMuiidaaO6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0624080ccc12582a5b76@[192.168.1.199]>

At 12:34 PM -0500 6/27/12, Julian Wolfe wrote:
>So, I've set to selling my Falcon and its software.
>
>It's just the board, with accelerator and memory.
>
>http://www.ebay.com/itm/160832830585?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_1413

Drool!

Out of curiosity, if you have the original case, why isn't it included?

How much software can actually make use of a 68060?

Always wanted a Falcon...  One of these days I should see if my TT030 
still works.

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Thu Jun 28 14:35:33 2012
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:35:33 -0700
Subject: Found a Mattel Aquarius
In-Reply-To: <4FEB88EB.1030106@socal.rr.com>
References: <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1> <4FEB88EB.1030106@socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4FECB205.1040508@socal.rr.com>

On 6/27/2012 3:27 PM, Mike Ford wrote:
> Going through my "junk", unfortunately a bunch of stuff will have to go,
> fortunately time has corrected my mental picture of much of its value
> and its now just old stuff.
>
> Not on that list;
>
> I found what appears to be a new Mattel Aquarius, minus box but still in
>
> Three boxes of Aim65, Sym, and Kym stuff, complete boards, parts, some
> docs.

Since about a dozen or so people are interested in various and often the 
same items, I am making a quick update post.

I wasn't clear enough on what "Not on that list" meant, it means I know 
these items are both desired and have some value. Specifically the 6502 
stuff and the Aim65 were some of the systems I did my first work on, and 
I still have a full development system for doing 6502 assembly language 
and a few other languages. The good news is that I am sure I have enough 
to keep me happy and pass some on to others. I paid some serious coin 
for them, so I do plan on selling what I can.

Overall time and plan, June 19th was my deadline from the HOA, so until 
I have space cleared in my garage to park two cars all of our cars must 
be parked outside the complex about a block away. Things that take up 
the most space and can be removed in the shortest time get priority. 
Things that take up very little space and require a moderate amount of 
time to find, test, pack, ship, etc will have a very low priority.

I have zero time over the next two days, but ASAP I will find a way to 
put up more details, pictures, and attempt some orderly procedure for 
selling or giving away stuff. While I am happy to recover some of the 
costs on some items, first priority will be good homes with special 
bonus on less time spent doing it. (I hate to ship, but will deal with 
it in certain cases).

I have a slew of Apple service depot parts, mostly stuff like boards for 
the 13" color monitor. Getting of duplicates is high on my list, so let 
me know asap if something obviously non rare is still desired.

Thanks mikeford at socal.rr.com still best way to reach me.




From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 14:37:21 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 16:37:21 -0300
Subject: Selling my CT63(CT60) 68060-accelerated Falcon
References: <CAOFHNokjBBoqkbpTjGiQ1MjNQ7jRROvv+c+hKoTcMuiidaaO6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <90E996FBDA4A43909C69F9970D3BF5ED@G4UGMT41>
 <CAOFHNo=8w1kg4k1wuGBFYaFfRi_kA+ze6rqDSkqVoggEKajT2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <06d901cd5565$9768d460$06000600@tababook>

> Yes, but I'm unwilling to work outside of ebay's international shipping
> methods any longer, just as a word of warning.  I was burned once, won't 
> do
> it again.

    Mind if I ask what happened? 



From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 28 14:40:40 2012
From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:40:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: AT & T 7300 docs and skanky defective Tandy 2000
Message-ID: <1340912440.11752.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>


Being shipped or disposed of tomorrow. First offlist email by person/s immediately willing to paypal 60lbs media/35lbs parcel post +10% in either case for my expenses. From 08758. Going going going. Tandy is very yellow or orange, missing screws, dual floppy, color rgb IIRC.


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 14:44:55 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 16:44:55 -0300
Subject: Found a Mattel Aquarius
References: <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1> <4FEB88EB.1030106@socal.rr.com>
 <4FECB205.1040508@socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: <071301cd5566$a924d180$06000600@tababook>


    HOA wants to make you park your cars on your garage? Why don't you say 
to them to (insert lots of filthy expletives here)???? :oO

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Ford" <mikeford at socal.rr.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: Found a Mattel Aquarius


> On 6/27/2012 3:27 PM, Mike Ford wrote:
>> Going through my "junk", unfortunately a bunch of stuff will have to go,
>> fortunately time has corrected my mental picture of much of its value
>> and its now just old stuff.
>>
>> Not on that list;
>>
>> I found what appears to be a new Mattel Aquarius, minus box but still in
>>
>> Three boxes of Aim65, Sym, and Kym stuff, complete boards, parts, some
>> docs.
>
> Since about a dozen or so people are interested in various and often the 
> same items, I am making a quick update post.
>
> I wasn't clear enough on what "Not on that list" meant, it means I know 
> these items are both desired and have some value. Specifically the 6502 
> stuff and the Aim65 were some of the systems I did my first work on, and I 
> still have a full development system for doing 6502 assembly language and 
> a few other languages. The good news is that I am sure I have enough to 
> keep me happy and pass some on to others. I paid some serious coin for 
> them, so I do plan on selling what I can.
>
> Overall time and plan, June 19th was my deadline from the HOA, so until I 
> have space cleared in my garage to park two cars all of our cars must be 
> parked outside the complex about a block away. Things that take up the 
> most space and can be removed in the shortest time get priority. Things 
> that take up very little space and require a moderate amount of time to 
> find, test, pack, ship, etc will have a very low priority.
>
> I have zero time over the next two days, but ASAP I will find a way to put 
> up more details, pictures, and attempt some orderly procedure for selling 
> or giving away stuff. While I am happy to recover some of the costs on 
> some items, first priority will be good homes with special bonus on less 
> time spent doing it. (I hate to ship, but will deal with it in certain 
> cases).
>
> I have a slew of Apple service depot parts, mostly stuff like boards for 
> the 13" color monitor. Getting of duplicates is high on my list, so let me 
> know asap if something obviously non rare is still desired.
>
> Thanks mikeford at socal.rr.com still best way to reach me.
>
> 



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 28 14:46:19 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:46:19 -0700
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <CACStewZ1_3D8gkPdgraKMO=oB1apnF41q1D_O8qQYEG2SuR87Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FEC2BA9.1076.4B4A79@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <CACStewZ1_3D8gkPdgraKMO=oB1apnF41q1D_O8qQYEG2SuR87Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEC521B.2567.E175D5@cclist.sydex.com>

On 28 Jun 2012 at 20:11, Sander Reiche wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 7:02 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> > > If the motor is verifiably 50Hz, the probability is overwhelming
> that > it's 220V. However, you might post a photo of the power
> connector > somewhere--there are countries (e.g. Australia) with 220V
> 50Hz power > where the mains connector looks a lot like a North
> American 2-blade > connector.
> 
> Sorry for the atrocious quality, but it's getting dusky here ;)
> 
> http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/220v1.jpg
> http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/220v2.jpg
> http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/220v3.jpg

That's definitely a 120V North American NEMA-5-15 plug.

So this clouds matters considerably.  Are you *certain*  that the 
motor is 50Hz?  50Hz induction motors will spin just fine on 60Hz and 
pretty much vice-versa, but the speed won't be the same.

--Chuck



From spectre at floodgap.com  Thu Jun 28 14:57:50 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 12:57:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Found a Mattel Aquarius
In-Reply-To: <071301cd5566$a924d180$06000600@tababook> from Alexandre Souza -
 Listas at "Jun 28, 12 04:44:55 pm"
Message-ID: <201206281957.q5SJvoRe15270116@floodgap.com>

>     HOA wants to make you park your cars on your garage? Why don't you say 
> to them to (insert lots of filthy expletives here)???? :oO

Obviously you have never lived in a development with an activist HOA (hint:
lots and lots of fines and legal crap). Glad I don't.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- "Kirk to Enterprise: beam down yeoman Rand and a six-pack." ----------------


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 28 13:39:51 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 19:39:51 +0100 (BST)
Subject: HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
In-Reply-To: <003a01cd54a9$d56cdca0$804695e0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Jun
 27, 12 11:14:21 pm
Message-ID: <m1SkJdE-000J4WC@p850ug1>

> Doesn't the nano-controller use the HP 2116 architecture and commands, like
> the BPC and other earlier HP processors like the ones in HP 98X0 series ?

It's quite likely, but I've never seen it stated anywhere. As you know 
the 9800 instruciton set is differnt to that of the 2116 too (although 
the basic instructions are, AFAIK, the same).

Maybe I should pull the ROMs from one of my naoncontroller-based devies, 
run them throguha disassembler and see if the resulting code makes any 
sense.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 28 13:43:35 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 19:43:35 +0100 (BST)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <019001cd54b0$baf13680$30d3a380$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt"
 at Jun 27, 12 11:03:46 pm
Message-ID: <m1SkJgq-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> Yes, I realised after sending the email that I would really need the PCB
> side of things. I think there are kits for making one-off PCBs, so I could

Yes, there are home etching kits, but making edge conenctor patters is 
not trivial. Layign them out and etchign them is, but if you leave them 
as bae copper they will oxidise fast and you'll get poor connections. 
Tinnign them helps, but the best thign to do is gold-plate them and 
that's not somethign you can sensibly do at home (the chemicals involved 
are very toxic -- cyanides, for example). Not all PCB manufacturers can 
do gold plating either.

Of your experiments, I think I'd use a couple of ribbon cabels ending i 
nthe 2-row header sockets (easy to get too). Those will plug onto most 
controller boards in place of the cabels ending in edge connectors that 
went to the drive. Then you wouldn't need a special PCB at all.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 28 14:14:51 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:14:51 +0100 (BST)
Subject: HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
In-Reply-To: <4FEBE4D7.5030709@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jun 27,
 12 10:00:07 pm
Message-ID: <m1SkKB7-000J4dC@p850ug1>

> Do you know what the later ROM's part number is?  Looks like this might 

I think it's an HP98228/.

There may stil lahve eben a system tape for it, I don't know. But I 
believe it doens't need any part of the OS on the disk, and can therefore 
used floppies from other HP machines.

> be easier to track down than a working system tape or creating a new one 
> at this point.  Disk compatibility isn't a major concern at this point.
> 
> I also have a working 9845, my understanding is that it'll work with the 
> 9885M as well, any ideas if it also needs a system tape?

I don;t think that does need a systemn tape. But it might well need some 
ROM module. 

> 
> >> Any ideas if this has been archived anywhere?  I haven't found it in my
> > Not that I know of. There was, IIRC< no way to copy binary programs on
> > the 9825 (well, you could with a 9877 external tepe memory unit, but they
> > are ridiculously rare, and the itnerfaces/software for them even rarer).
> > So there was no real way to archive this system cartridge :-(
> 
> That's a shame.  I suppose, given enough spare time, that I could write 
> some software to talk to the 9825 over GPIB from a PC (there's the 
> HPDrive software which is primarily geared for the 9845 that I suppose 
> could be adapted...) and use it to write a tape out... but that would 
> require a tape image (or original tape) to copy -from-.

It would also require you to eb able to prgram the 9825 in machine code 
-- there are no HPL commands to read the tape at a low enough level. And 
good luck trying to do that, or indeed, making sens of the tape (the tape 
controlleer DMAs data from the tape in to the LSB (only) of machine 
words, I guess it's up to the CPU to put 16 such words together to make 
valid data). None of this was ever officially documented by HP, BTW.

Given a semi-infinite amoutn of time, you migth find it easier to use jsut
hte drive and tape cotroller board from the 9825 and (temporatily) link it
to a microcontroller or soemthing. At least the I/O bus is reasoably-well
docuemtned, and i nthe 9825 there are no custom ICs on the tape controlelr
board. Offical schematics don't exist, unofficial ones do. 

But that would stil lrequire you to find a system tape. I don't have one.

> I originally looked at the system boards and was hoping that the HP 
> house numbers for the chips mapped to a more conventional microprocessor 
> / microcontroller, but that's clearly not the case.

No, that is one of the few HP custom ICs in the unit. Most of the rest is 
TTL.

> 
> > And then there's that board with the HP custom
> > 'nanocontroller' and firmware ROms on it. AFAIK HP never docuemtned this
> > nanocontroller, the instruciton set is not known (I would love to be
> > wrogn about this) so tryign to disassabmble the firmware is a
> > non-starter.... And without knowimg what that firmware is doing you are
> > essentailly working blind.
> 
> So basically: this is going to be a pretty large challenge to get 
> running, assuming I can even find the software to make the 9825 work 
> with it in a useful fashion... :)
>

Yes, but that's a very good reason for doing it :-)

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 28 14:48:52 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:48:52 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Tools was Re: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <4FEC04B0.5070706@gmail.com> from "Dave Wade" at Jun 28,
 12 08:16:00 am
Message-ID: <m1SkKi2-000J4fC@p850ug1>

> 
> I think at some time you may well come across issues with dead 
> capacitors and you may need to diagnose capacitors. I know you can get 

MAybe... My expeireicne is that while capaciors do fail (more so in 
recent-ish consumer-grade stuff than in the sort of classic computers I 
noramlyl work on), the 'witch hunt' against elecrrolytic capacitors is 
unjustified.

> ESR (effective Series Resistance?) Meters but I wondered how good these 
> were and if any one had any experience of using them.

I tend to divide test equioemnt into 'genral-purpose' and 'specialised'. 
A multimeter is the former, you will use it for many jobs on just about 
everythign you fix. An ESR meter is the latetr. It is very useful for 
fidnign a particualr type of defective component, but it's not something 
you use all the time.

The OP is starting out, so I (and I think others) are suggesting he 
starts with the gernal-purpose instruemtns mad learns to use those. Then 
he will have a good idea as to what ESR means, why it's important, and 
how it coould be measured.

It's possible to measure ESR with a sine wave signal generator and a 
;cope (You apply a known AC signal to the capcitor under test, look at 
the currnet thrpough it (voltage drop across a small resistor in series), 
then resolve the impedance of the cpacitor into in-phase (due to ESR) 
and quadrature (due to the capacitive reactance) somponents. It gets 
boring fast, which is why there are ESR meters. Of coruse a good 
measuring bridge will do it too, which is how I normally measuee ESR.It's 
slow, but I am not being paid by the hour...

There certainly used to be kits for ESR meters available. One of those 
would be aquite a sensible project. Unliek most test gear you don't need 
a very ccurate readign for ESR, so calibrating such a meter is not too 
difficult. 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 28 14:57:39 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:57:39 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> from "David
 Cantrell" at Jun 28, 12 11:50:33 am
Message-ID: <m1SkKqX-000J4gC@p850ug1>

> > >   As am I.  People are talking about it like it's the first small form
> > > factor Linux machine.
> 
> Price.  That's what's exciting about it.

Fortunately I learnt long ago that it's unwise to spend too little.

> 
> > The Rpi board is only part of what you need. You also need a PSU, 
> > keyboard, mouse, USB hub, SD card and some kind of monitor. Even without the 
> > last, that would essentailyl double the cost of the device. Please don't 
> > tell me I can find those extras in the trash/junk box. I can't. My junk 
> > box doesn't contain PC bits. It does contain enugh to build a computer 
> > from scatch though.
> 
> But most normal people who might be interested *do* have all of those.

How many people have all those and don't have a computer to conenct them 
to? Why but an Rpi rather than just using said computer.

> 
> > And then there's the OS. From what I understnad the Rpi doesn't come wit 
> > hthe OS. You have to download it onto an SD card yourself. That's a major 
> > problem for me. 
> 
> If downloading it and putting it onto an SD card is too difficult, then

It is, if you hae a slow dial-up line and no SD card interface on your PC 
(both apply to me). 

It is being hyped as a reincarnation of the BBC micro or whatever. But 
from what I remembr, you could buy a BBC micro, plug it into the mains, 
plug it into a TV and start using it. You didn't have to pvodie all sorts 
of extras, downlaad software, etc to get it to work.

> > The docuemantion is attrocious. I couldn't find a schematic, or a real 
> > hardware manual. 
> 
> Errm, what consumer electronics comes with a schematic these days?  The

I would argue this is not a consumer device. You mentioned RS and Farnell 
as suppliers (and I was annoyed ahvign to navigate past the Rpi pages to 
actualyl find the bits I needed), those are not conusmer electronics 
companies. 

In any case the fact that noting else comes wit ha schematic is no reason 
why this thouldn't
> > > > the extreme cheapness is what is driving people.
> > >   That must be it.  See below.
> > But as I saidm, watch for hidden costs...
> 
> They're not hidden.

IMHOP they are. People keep quoting the price for the Rpi board, not a 
complete working set-up. 

-tonu


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 28 14:39:28 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:39:28 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <E5F42EBA528C4647B70DCD70D984E467@ArkCompNew> from "Jeffrey
 Brace" at Jun 28, 12 02:55:30 am
Message-ID: <m1SkKYx-000J4eC@p850ug1>

> (no video, power supply good, video cable good monitor good). Now what ?=20
> There are many possible failures, but one likely one: the PLA chip. Now h=
> ow=20
> do I figure out if it is the PLA chip (then how do I remove and which too=

Now, I am not a C64 person at all, so these are goign to be genral comments.

There are basically 2 ways of determining if a compoennt is bad. One is 
to remove it from the machine and to test it in your own circuit. The 
otehr is to see how the machine is mishehaving and to see if the signals 
coming from a partocualr component are right fgiven what's going into it. 
Of course in complex circuits the signals goin in might well depend on 
those coming out (think of a microprocssor, what it does depends on the 
instructions being fed to it on the data bus),. so it's not always easy.

Now, IIRC the 'PLA' is a programmed 82S100 or simular. You can get a data 
sheet for the unprogrammed part which will tell you the pinuts. It will 
also tell you waht it conssits of : 

There are 16 inputs. The programming produces 48 internal signals which 
are the logical AND of any combination of those 16 inputs and their 
inverses. For exampe the first term might be I0.I4.I7/.I9 . A second part 
of the programming defines each of the 8 outputs from the chip as the 
logical OR of any/all of those48 internal signals. And finally you cna 
progam it so that each output is either normal or inverted.

I believe the C64 PLA programming is available somewhere. So from that 
you can work out what the states of all 8 outputs should be for each 
combination of the 16 inputs. That gives the first way to check it. You 
apply eah combination of inputs in turn and check the outputs. Or more 
practically you use a computer to do it. 

The easier way is to test it i nthe C64. You start by seeign if any of 
the outputs are ever chaning state. If not, i would suspect the IC is 
bad. Not certain, but certainly a good posibility. If you are getting the 
otuput changing, I'd us a logic analyer. Trigger on one such output and 
see what the inputs are doing. Are they right? Or trigger the LA on a 
combination of inputs that should cause an output to go active. Does that 
combination ever occru (is the LA being triggered)? If so, is the output 
changing correctly? 

As for actualyl replacign the IC, it's a 28 pin DIL device. If you are 
lucky, it's in a socekt. You then just flip it out with a small 
screwdriver under each end of the IC, and put a replacement in. Actually 
being a Commordore, I'd remove the old socket at fit a nice turned-pin 
one. The problem chould be bad socket contacts.

If it's soldered driectly to tyhe board you have 2 options really. One is 
to carefully desolder all 28 pins with the iron and socler sucker. Then 
when each pin is free (use a small screwdriver or pliers to wiggle the 
pin around on both sides of the PCB to break any remaing sodler bond), 
you pul lthe IC out. Then fit a socket, so it's easier next time. 

The second option is that if you _know_ the IC is dead, you cut the pins 
off near the body of the IC (you need some fine end or side cutters for 
this, which are not cheap!). Then remove the body of the IC and desodler 
and remove each pin separately. Clean out the holeson the board (melt the 
solder with an iron o nthe solder side, use the solder sucker on the 
component side), then fit the socket, etc.

> ls=20
> do I use etc.) ? Logic probe ? Multi-meter ? Oscilloscope ? I don't know =
> how=20
> to use any of them. I never asked for "specific" advice, only general=20
> advice. Which tools to get etc.

AS I hope you've gatehrerd by now, your question, while certainly valid 
and on-topic, doesn't have a simple answer. There is no magic box that 
will tell you what to replace. You will end up learning a lot of analogue 
and digital electronics, and practicing soldering, etc. I don;t think 
_anyone_ can learn this sort of stuff in a few days. 

I don;t want to put you off, and I'll certianly help if I can (as will 
others here), but I am jsut lettign you know what you are gettign into.

> 
> >There are two possible approaches to giving help with such repairs, whic=
> h
> >could be compared to the 'give an man a fish' .vs. 'teach a man to fish'.
> 
> Tony, I understand and agree.
> 
> >rather 'teach a man to fish'. Rather than telling them to check this and
> >then change that IC, I'd ecplain to them how the thing should work, how =
> to
> >check things, and so on. In the end they will learn enough to be able to
> >trace faults themselves, and the knowledge of fault diagnosis --=20
> >soemthign that seems to be rarely taught -- is preserved. None of us are
> >goign to eb around for ever, so it is a Good Thing to pass on our skills
> >in this way.
> 
> I think a little of both show me how to fix it then have me figure out th=
> e=20
> next one. A little helping, a little trying on my own. All the while=20
> explaining that is going on and adding knowledge. After all you have to=20
> start somewhere.

Yes, I agree. Now, as I said, I am not a C64 person, so I am not going to 
be the one to help with specifics. But I can tell you how I respond to 
repair questions on machines I do know about. I do provided directed 
help. of the form 'check the signal at this point, is it ever changing 
state'.  But I also make sure I explain _why_ you woudl check that 
signal, what it means, and so on. So I would not simply say 'Look, all 
you need are the data sheets on all the chips, a book on electronics, and 
you can figure it out for yourself'. Equlaly I will not say 'Check the 
signal at pin 3 of U19' 'OK, it's always high'. 'Right, change U27 
(74LS02)'. It'll be in the middle, of the form 'Is the processor being 
held i nthe reset state. We can check that by looking at the signal on 
pin 6 of U5. Is that high, low, or what?' And so on...

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 28 15:06:38 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:06:38 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <CAJ0dHHwZoYOdf5+Nj2=aU=eTBTvyUGR6zGZQWPDPfo=AEzBjpA@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Joachim Thiemann" at Jun 28, 12 02:17:01 pm
Message-ID: <m1SkKzE-000J4iC@p850ug1>

> 
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:07 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wr=
> ote:
> > I must admit that I am not overly in favour of the Raspberry pi...
> 
> What do you mean? Not in favour of it having been built? It being
> marketed the way it is? Its design?

Well, I don't think it should have been hyped as much as it is. There's 
noting particualrly special avout it. And I can't comment on the design 
becuase as I said the documentation is inadequate. But form what I've 
sene it doesn't seen that interesting to me.

> > Firstly it seems ot be an overhyped product, and that always seems to
> > imply a product that I don;'t want. OK, perhaps that's a bit unfair, bu=
> t...
> 
> While I kind of agree, it is a useful and perhaps _necessary_ thing to
> do to make it work economically.  You need the economics of scale to
> make a device like this cheap.  You want the mindshare in the general
> (and specialist) community to create resources; documentation;
> extensions, etc, etc.
> 
> As I mentioned above myself, I agree it's the wrong thing to buy for
> many people even if they want one, and part of that _is_ due to the
> hype.  Typically it's not due to the reason that it's not a good thing
> for you, Tony, but because they think it's something that it's not - a
> cheap desktop replacement or a ready-to-go game console or media
> player.  As for the reasons you mentioned...

My worry about anyt of those applications is that from what I ahve heard 
the supply of Rpis is limited. Maybe large, but limited. And I would not 
want to sped time developing something only to fidn the Rpi (or whatever) 
was no longer available. 

> 
> > The Rpi board is only part of what you need. You also need a PSU,
> Have something that can produce 5V?  Got a cell phone charger?

_I_ hae plenyy of 5V suppleis, but nonoe fo them are cheap...

> 
> > keyboard, mouse, USB hub, SD card and some kind of monitor.
> 
> Ok, I can appreciate you not having a USB kbd or mouse, the hub is not
> really needed, but the video can be on the composite out.  I am fairly
> certain you have _some_ display that can handle composite.

Depends on waht sort of composite :-). More seriously, I'd not want ot 
use TV-rate video if I could avoid it.

> > Even without the
> > last, that would essentailyl double the cost of the device. Please don'=
> t
> > tell me I can find those extras in the trash/junk box. I can't. My junk
> > box doesn't contain PC bits. It does contain enugh to build a computer
> > from scatch though.
> 
> At any largish garage sale, the bits could be picked up for less than

Not i nthe UK (for the nth time...)

> 10 euros.  So I think its reasonable to assume that many other people
> have the things to make the R=CF=80 work in their junk piles.
> 
> > The docuemantion is attrocious. I couldn't find a schematic, or a real
> > hardware manual.
> 
> Different times again.  You would prefer paper documentation (I'm
> assuming this, let's be hypothetical).  That'd be great, but would
> significantly add to costs, esp. w.r.t. shipping.  These days - what
> the kids are into on the intertubes - is to have a wiki.  Here.
> http://elinux.org/RaspberryPiBoard
> 
> Schematics? Datasheets? Here. http://elinux.org/RPi_Hardware

OK, it may have improved recently. Certainly when it was anounced I 
couldn't find any such information (and no, I don't mean on paper, I did 
poke around web sites, etc). 
> You make it sound as though the R=CF=80 is sourced from overstock, or
> end-run of a product line.  I'd be very surprised if that is the case.

That _is_ what I was told, by somebody who works in the industry. It's 
quite possible I was misinformed.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 28 15:11:11 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:11:11 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Sander Reiche" at Jun 28, 12 03:22:16 pm
Message-ID: <m1SkL3c-000J4jC@p850ug1>

> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Do you guys know of a failsafe way to check if a Teletype is for 110
> or 220V? I've bought one which has a power connector which seems like
> US mains. The motor is 50Hz, but I guess that won't make a difference.
> Any quick way to check without completely dismantling the machine?

Every ASR33 I've seen (and I am in the UK) has had a 110V motor. The 
'call control unit'  in a Teletype modelk 33 was designed for 110V mains 
too. The UK modles genrally had a 240V-110V (or 230V-115V, or whatever) 
autotransformer in the stand.

There was a UK machine called a Data Dynamics 390. It used ASR33 
mechancials with their own call cotnrol unit. This ran off 240V mains, 
but the motor was still 110V. The mains transformer in the call control 
unit provided the motor supply.

So I think it's a safe bet to assuem your machine is for 110V mains.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 28 15:18:10 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:18:10 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <100019EB-5D01-47A6-84CD-423B9F88B3C7@gmail.com> from "David
 Riley" at Jun 28, 12 09:56:18 am
Message-ID: <m1SkLAO-000J4kC@p850ug1>

> 
> On Jun 27, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> > I must admit that I am not overly in favour of the Raspberry pi...
> >=20
> > ...
> >=20
> > The docuemantion is attrocious. I couldn't find a schematic, or a real=20
> > hardware manual.=20
> 
> Well, for all it's worth, there *is* a schematic...
> 
> http://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Raspberry-Pi-Schema=
> tics-R1.0.pdf

OK, sounds like they have finally relaesed one. When I looked (at the 
time the thing was first being hyped), the attidued seemed to be 'we are 
still deciding if we will release it'. Not the sort of attiitude that 
encouragees me to buy it.


> 
> The hardware documentation is basically in the form of a Wiki, which
> I guess is how people handle documentation when they don't really
> want to write documentation themselves (sometimes, it works; I'd
> call the RPi Wiki a semi-success, because it's still really poorly
> organized).  There is a datasheet, though, that covers most of the
> actual peripherals except for the video portion and a few others:

YEs, that's basicially what I was told. The video (in particualr the 
accelerator) was not going to be documented withotu signing NDAs, etc. 
Again, not something that (I would consider using.

> 
> http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1521578.pdf
> 
> As you've noted, it's somewhat redacted.  To be honest, it's a lot
> better than what I expected, given that it's a Broadcom part.  We
> have to deal with Broadcom parts at work from time to time, and
> getting datasheets out of them is worse than pulling teeth.  For

I can rememrbr when you just had to ask for a data sheet and it arrived 
-- on paper -- the enxt day. No NDAs...


> So yeah, while it's not *ideal*, it's a lot more than I ever
> expected the cyborg ultra-lawyers at Broadcom to approve.

That may be so, but it doesn't encourage me to buy the Rpi board...

-tony



From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 15:46:49 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 22:46:49 +0200
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <4FEC521B.2567.E175D5@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEC2BA9.1076.4B4A79@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CACStewZ1_3D8gkPdgraKMO=oB1apnF41q1D_O8qQYEG2SuR87Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEC521B.2567.E175D5@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CACStewayvUbH51ASdy=Mj-ag+S63aWueTAT6rzU5rLub7Bd=Wg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> That's definitely a 120V North American NEMA-5-15 plug.
>
> So this clouds matters considerably. ?Are you *certain* ?that the
> motor is 50Hz? ?50Hz induction motors will spin just fine on 60Hz and
> pretty much vice-versa, but the speed won't be the same.
Yup, large metal emblem on the thing stating it's 50Hz. I'll take a
picture tomorrow. But I can't imagine it being the definitive answer
to my question...

re,

Sander


-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Jun 28 15:53:25 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:53:25 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <4FEC521B.2567.E175D5@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun
 28, 12 12:46:19 pm
Message-ID: <m1SkLiV-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> So this clouds matters considerably.  Are you *certain*  that the 
> motor is 50Hz?  50Hz induction motors will spin just fine on 60Hz and 
> pretty much vice-versa, but the speed won't be the same.

Very liekly to be. As you know, it's easy to change voltage (an 
(auto)transformer), it's a lot harder to change frequency. So the 
European Model 33s (and I asusme other Teletypes iwth induction motors) 
had 110V motors that would run on 50Hz and were geared appropraitely. 

I seem to rememmbere the official set-up had a normal 3 pin 110V US mains 
plug and in-line socket between the autotransformer and the machine. It 
was notmally all hidden in the floor stand.

-tony


From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Thu Jun 28 16:39:26 2012
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:39:26 +0200
Subject: HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
In-Reply-To: <m1SkKB7-000J4dC@p850ug1>
References: <4FEBE4D7.5030709@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jun 27,
 12 10:00:07 pm <m1SkKB7-000J4dC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <002101cd5576$81549b80$83fdd280$@xs4all.nl>



> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
> Namens Tony Duell
> Verzonden: donderdag 28 juni 2012 21:15
> Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Onderwerp: Re: HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
> 
> > Do you know what the later ROM's part number is?  Looks like this
> > might
> 
> I think it's an HP98228/.


It is: http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=559

> 
> There may stil lahve eben a system tape for it, I don't know. But I
believe it
> doens't need any part of the OS on the disk, and can therefore used
floppies
> from other HP machines.
> 
> > be easier to track down than a working system tape or creating a new
> > one at this point.  Disk compatibility isn't a major concern at this
point.
> >
> > I also have a working 9845, my understanding is that it'll work with
> > the 9885M as well, any ideas if it also needs a system tape?
> 
> I don;t think that does need a systemn tape. But it might well need some
ROM
> module.
> 
> >
> > >> Any ideas if this has been archived anywhere?  I haven't found it
> > >> in my
> > > Not that I know of. There was, IIRC< no way to copy binary programs
> > > on the 9825 (well, you could with a 9877 external tepe memory unit,
> > > but they are ridiculously rare, and the itnerfaces/software for them
even
> rarer).
> > > So there was no real way to archive this system cartridge :-(
> >
> > That's a shame.  I suppose, given enough spare time, that I could
> > write some software to talk to the 9825 over GPIB from a PC (there's
> > the HPDrive software which is primarily geared for the 9845 that I
> > suppose could be adapted...) and use it to write a tape out... but
> > that would require a tape image (or original tape) to copy -from-.
> 
> It would also require you to eb able to prgram the 9825 in machine code
> -- there are no HPL commands to read the tape at a low enough level. And
good
> luck trying to do that, or indeed, making sens of the tape (the tape
controlleer
> DMAs data from the tape in to the LSB (only) of machine words, I guess
it's up to
> the CPU to put 16 such words together to make valid data). None of this
was
> ever officially documented by HP, BTW.
> 
> Given a semi-infinite amoutn of time, you migth find it easier to use jsut
hte
> drive and tape cotroller board from the 9825 and (temporatily) link it to
a
> microcontroller or soemthing. At least the I/O bus is reasoably-well
> docuemtned, and i nthe 9825 there are no custom ICs on the tape controlelr
> board. Offical schematics don't exist, unofficial ones do.
> 
> But that would stil lrequire you to find a system tape. I don't have one.

>Snip


I have two of them, both are stuck at the moment. 
But if any one of you will take a chance getting it loose and make a backup,
let me know.

-Rik



From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Thu Jun 28 16:45:56 2012
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:45:56 +0200
Subject: HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
In-Reply-To: <m1SkJdE-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <003a01cd54a9$d56cdca0$804695e0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Jun
 27, 12 11:14:21 pm <m1SkJdE-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <002501cd5577$694ee620$3becb260$@xs4all.nl>



> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
> Namens Tony Duell
> Verzonden: donderdag 28 juni 2012 20:40
> Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Onderwerp: Re: HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
> 
> > Doesn't the nano-controller use the HP 2116 architecture and commands,
> > like the BPC and other earlier HP processors like the ones in HP 98X0
series ?
> 
> It's quite likely, but I've never seen it stated anywhere. As you know the
9800
> instruciton set is differnt to that of the 2116 too (although the basic
instructions
> are, AFAIK, the same).
> 
> Maybe I should pull the ROMs from one of my naoncontroller-based devies,
run
> them throguha disassembler and see if the resulting code makes any sense.
> 
> -tony

I think Steve Liebson says something about it on www.HP9825.com.
I'll check it in de morning, and I also check my 9872 plotter manual.

-Rik



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Jun 28 12:03:18 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:03:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, 
In-Reply-To: <m1SkLAO-000J4kC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SkLAO-000J4kC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206281002500.12763@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:

>
> That may be so, but it doesn't encourage me to buy the Rpi board...
>
> -tony

...and not a single f*ck was given that day.

*sigh*

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From md.benson at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 17:17:19 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:17:19 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <m1SkLAO-000J4kC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SkLAO-000J4kC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <D362A136-6ED4-4559-A166-45C6FA9E16AE@gmail.com>


On 28 Jun 2012, at 21:18, Tony Duell wrote:

> I can rememrbr when you just had to ask for a data sheet and it arrived 
> -- on paper -- the enxt day. No NDAs...

I imagine when you used to get data sheets delivered next day to your door with no NDAs there probably weren't 100 Chinese companies waiting in the long grass to clone TI or whoever products and beat them over the head with the price difference. NDAs in the electronics industry are a sad but necessary result of the fact that you can't trust anyone with your product data anymore unless you make some kind of allowance to sue them when they steal it.

>> So yeah, while it's not *ideal*, it's a lot more than I ever
>> expected the cyborg ultra-lawyers at Broadcom to approve.
> 
> That may be so, but it doesn't encourage me to buy the Rpi board...

So don't buy one. Non of use that have one (soon to be two and by the year out probably at least five) will mind. Just quit beating us over the head with your opinion. We get it already.

-- 

Mark Benson

http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK

Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.




From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 17:46:22 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:46:22 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <D362A136-6ED4-4559-A166-45C6FA9E16AE@gmail.com>
References: <m1SkLAO-000J4kC@p850ug1>
 <D362A136-6ED4-4559-A166-45C6FA9E16AE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGiHq+aMt7qKVmbhjEH7_gBkxS00G_Em-oWTY_f2b14WQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 June 2012 23:17, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So don't buy one. Non of use that have one (soon to be two and by the year out probably at least five) will mind. Just quit beating us over the head with your opinion. We get it already.

Tony *might* approve if the published documentation included detailed
instructions on how to mine your own copper ore, smelt it, build a
silicon refinery, fabricate your own CPU, spin glass fibre and
synthesize resin and then manufacture your own circuit board.

But I do emphasize the "might" here...

:?)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 28 17:46:55 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:46:55 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <m1SkJgq-000J4YC@p850ug1>
References: <019001cd54b0$baf13680$30d3a380$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt"
 at Jun 27, 12 11:03:46 pm, <m1SkJgq-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FEC7C6F.31785.186CF7C@cclist.sydex.com>

On 28 Jun 2012 at 19:43, Tony Duell wrote:

> Yes, there are home etching kits, but making edge conenctor patters is
> not trivial. Layign them out and etchign them is, but if you leave
> them as bae copper they will oxidise fast and you'll get poor
> connections. Tinnign them helps, but the best thign to do is
> gold-plate them and that's not somethign you can sensibly do at home
> (the chemicals involved are very toxic -- cyanides, for example). Not
> all PCB manufacturers can do gold plating either.

It wasn't my intention to use edge connectors on the project, but 
rather double-row headers.  My reasoning was that header-equipped 
cables are easy to obtain, are more secure in their attachment 
(particularly if the receptacle has locking "ears") and are less 
costly to fab than a gold (alloy, if we're talking a good job)  
plated male edge connector, which also requires special PCB tooling.

--Chuck



From js at cimmeri.com  Thu Jun 28 17:56:09 2012
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:56:09 -0500
Subject: HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
In-Reply-To: <mailman.686.1340776474.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.686.1340776474.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4FECE109.6080508@cimmeri.com>


Josh, IIRC, you need to have an 8" floppy in for the testing.

cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
Subject:
HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
From:
Josh Dersch <derschjo at mail.msu.edu>
Date:
Tue, 26 Jun 2012 21:16:48 -0700

To:
General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>


Hi all --

Picked up a (mostly) complete HP 9885M (8" floppy drive) set up for my 
HP 9825 computer.  I have the 9885M drive itself, a 98032A interface, 
and the "Flexible Disk Drive" ROM pak for the 9825.  I am unfortunately 
missing the "9825A Disk System Cartridge" tape (hp p/n 09885-90035).  
Any ideas if this has been archived anywhere?  I haven't found it in my 
searches. (Not that I currently have any means to get it onto my 
9825...) Looks like this is actually required in order to format disks. 
Sigh...

Unfortunately, the drive appears to be failing the built-in diagnostic; 
there's a single LED that goes on when the test starts and it's supposed 
to go out within a minute if the diagnostic's passed.  The LED on mine 
just stays on permanently.  Unfortunately that's the -only- diagnostic 
indicator on the unit.  I've read through the service manual and unless 
I'm missing something it doesn't really describe how to go about 
narrowing down the problem.  There's a flowchart that basically says "if 
the light doesn't go out, it's a problem with the controller in the 
drive unit" which seems fairly obvious...

The service manual mentions a diagnostic on the tape, but I don't have 
this to aid me.  Anyone have any experience with these drives?  Any 
pointers for starting out?  (I've checked the obvious things -- the 
power supply voltages look good, etc).

Thanks as always,
Josh


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Thu Jun 28 17:57:36 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:57:36 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <m1SkJgq-000J4YC@p850ug1>
References: <019001cd54b0$baf13680$30d3a380$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt"
 at Jun 27, 12 11:03:46 pm <m1SkJgq-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <023801cd5581$6a64b760$3f2e2620$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell
> Sent: 28 June 2012 19:44
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
> 
> > Yes, I realised after sending the email that I would really need the
> > PCB side of things. I think there are kits for making one-off PCBs, so
> > I could
> 
> Yes, there are home etching kits, but making edge conenctor patters is not
> trivial. Layign them out and etchign them is, but if you leave them as bae
> copper they will oxidise fast and you'll get poor connections.
> Tinnign them helps, but the best thign to do is gold-plate them and that's
> not somethign you can sensibly do at home (the chemicals involved are very
> toxic -- cyanides, for example). Not all PCB manufacturers can do gold
> plating either.
> 
> Of your experiments, I think I'd use a couple of ribbon cabels ending i
nthe 2-
> row header sockets (easy to get too). Those will plug onto most controller
> boards in place of the cabels ending in edge connectors that went to the
> drive. Then you wouldn't need a special PCB at all.
> 
> -tony

What I think you are suggesting is to make up a replacement ribbon cable
with the more usual edge connectors. That is a great idea, but if I am not
mistaken, tooling up to create your own custom ribbon cables can be
expensive, or it might have been that you couldn't easily buy smallish
quantities of ribbon cable. I can't remember for sure now. Still, it
definitely a much better idea than my original one!

Regards

Rob



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Thu Jun 28 18:05:02 2012
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:05:02 +0100
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff 
In-Reply-To: <018f01cd54b0$600aa4e0$201feea0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
 <7A86A2A30D574B70A5F5E67D283A3A61@G4UGMT41>
 <018f01cd54b0$600aa4e0$201feea0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <023a01cd5582$74334940$5c99dbc0$@ntlworld.com>

And I should have said that, being local, if I can help I am more than
willing to do so.

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt
> Sent: 27 June 2012 23:01
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: RE: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
> 
> And so am I (Stockport actually).
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave
> > Sent: 27 June 2012 22:13
> > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> > Subject: RE: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
> >
> > I am in Manchester, can I help at all?
> >
> > Dave Wade G4UGM
> > Illegitimi Non Carborundum
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
> > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Van
> > > Peborgh
> > > Sent: 27 June 2012 19:45
> > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> > > Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
> > >
> > >
> > > Guys, Guys, Guys...
> > >
> > > I am overwhelmed and slightly gobsmacked at the level of interest. I
> > > hope I won't disappoint you. Since the stuff is in machester and I
> > > am in Somerset (about 200 miles apart within England for those of
> > > you in the USofA), I won't know in detail what is involved until I
> > > get there at the beginning fo the week when I start clearing out. I
> > > do know there are a lot of electronic test equipment including
> > > scopes. IBM '60s manuals and hardware descriptions, mag tapes and
> paper tapes.
> > > Lots of valves/tubes also.
> > >
> > > Please keep telling me your interests and I will conact relevant
> > > people nearer the time.
> > >
> > > peter
> > > || |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
> > > Peter Van Peborgh
> > > 62 St Mary's Rise
> > > Writhlington  Radstock
> > > Somerset BA3 3PD
> > > UK
> > > 01761 439 234
> > > || |  |   |    |     |      |       |        |
> > >



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 18:50:12 2012
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 16:50:12 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <023801cd5581$6a64b760$3f2e2620$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019001cd54b0$baf13680$30d3a380$@ntlworld.com>
 <m1SkJgq-000J4YC@p850ug1>
 <023801cd5581$6a64b760$3f2e2620$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKx==Ne3qLLTmqsoG1s8HWYVvVYR8LMpi3wEWj4zQAHHQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Rob Jarratt
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> What I think you are suggesting is to make up a replacement ribbon cable
> with the more usual edge connectors. That is a great idea, but if I am not
> mistaken, tooling up to create your own custom ribbon cables can be
> expensive, or it might have been that you couldn't easily buy smallish
> quantities of ribbon cable. I can't remember for sure now. Still, it
> definitely a much better idea than my original one!
>

As in a lot of situations using the proper tools makes the job much
easier, although the proper tools can be crazy expensive if you buy
them at new list prices.

For assembling ribbon cables I picked up a 3M Scotchflex press setup
from eBay.  The Mouser or Digi-Key list prices are something like
this:
3316 Universal Press, $1976
3458 Locator Plate Riser Block, $735
3443-94 Locater Plate, $741
I forget how much I paid for this setup.  Probably somewhere around $75-$100.

My first attempts at building 50-conductor cables with header
connectors on one end and card edge connectors on the other to
interface between a Pertec tape drive and controller resulted in a few
broken connectors before I gave up and bought a proper press.

Ribbon cable is also expensive if you buy it at new list prices.  I've
bought new 100 foot boxes of 3M 1700 (rainbow twist), 3302 (rainbow
straight), and 3365 (grey) on eBay at prices I considered reasonable
per foot.  If you only need to build a single cable that would be
expensive.

-Glen


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Thu Jun 28 19:08:27 2012
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:08:27 +0100
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <4FEC2BA9.1076.4B4A79@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEC2BA9.1076.4B4A79@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FECF1FB.5080805@dunnington.plus.com>

On 28/06/2012 18:02, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 28 Jun 2012 at 15:22, Sander Reiche wrote:
> 
>> Do you guys know of a failsafe way to check if a Teletype is for 110
>> or 220V? I've bought one which has a power connector which seems like
>> US mains. The motor is 50Hz, but I guess that won't make a difference.
>> Any quick way to check without completely dismantling the machine?
> 
> If the motor is verifiably 50Hz, the probability is overwhelming that 
> it's 220V.

Probably not, actually.  My supplied-in-the-UK ASR33 is 50Hz and has a
110V motor, and has a big transformer in the base to allow it to be used
on 240V AC mains.  So have other UK models I've looked at.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Thu Jun 28 19:21:09 2012
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:21:09 +0100
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <023801cd5581$6a64b760$3f2e2620$@ntlworld.com>
References: <019001cd54b0$baf13680$30d3a380$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt"
 at Jun 27, 12 11:03:46 pm <m1SkJgq-000J4YC@p850ug1>
 <023801cd5581$6a64b760$3f2e2620$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <4FECF4F5.7010003@dunnington.plus.com>

On 28/06/2012 23:57, Rob Jarratt wrote:

> What I think you are suggesting is to make up a replacement ribbon cable
> with the more usual edge connectors. That is a great idea, but if I am not
> mistaken, tooling up to create your own custom ribbon cables can be
> expensive, or it might have been that you couldn't easily buy smallish
> quantities of ribbon cable. I can't remember for sure now. Still, it
> definitely a much better idea than my original one!

It's not expensive -- all you need is a small bench vice -- and you can
buy ribbon cable cheaply in short lengths, as well as inexpensive
connectors,  from a variety of places including Maplin, that auction
site, etc.  Even Farnell sell it in short lengths, but a good source is
cast-off PC drive cables.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 28 19:45:37 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:45:37 -0700
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <4FECF1FB.5080805@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FEC2BA9.1076.4B4A79@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FECF1FB.5080805@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <4FEC9841.11725.1F37C87@cclist.sydex.com>

On 29 Jun 2012 at 1:08, Pete Turnbull wrote:

> Probably not, actually.  My supplied-in-the-UK ASR33 is 50Hz and has a
> 110V motor, and has a big transformer in the base to allow it to be
> used on 240V AC mains.  So have other UK models I've looked at.

Yup, Tony's made it clear that you folks in fifty-hurts land have a 
transformer in the base.  Strange, but true.

So, if the OP doesn't have one, he needs to find one.

--Chuck



From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Jun 28 19:47:09 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:47:09 -0600
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W2125D7E3FCD64ED9401A3AA3E70@phx.gbl>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <4FE990E1.15558.5090B1@cclist.sydex.com>, ,
 <F4C5FF9D-AD4E-41D0-9592-2A3CA55ED0A2@gmail.com>,
 <4FE9D210.6648.14F301B@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FEA802C.2060409@neurotica.com> <SNT129-W2125D7E3FCD64ED9401A3AA3E70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E1SkPMb-0003gN-OC@shell.xmission.com>


In article <SNT129-W2125D7E3FCD64ED9401A3AA3E70 at phx.gbl>,
    dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> writes:

>  If I knew what machine it was intended for, I might
> start with a controller like the one in the machine.

Aesthedes design system.
<http://bitsavers.org/pdf/aesthedes/Aesthedes_IPEX_88_Brochure_1988.pdf>

Good luck figuring out the controller, it's not a commodity item,
there are no schematics available, no "theory of operation" manual or
anything else verging on what we would call technical documentation.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Jun 28 19:49:40 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:49:40 -0600
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <20120627085709.c0fb895c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <CAGN_6pYPtoQ=GeTOchWnfMDDf=GroAABJ7_dggwnp8fyRe71qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pZU4AdCS-ijNRUrMZG8nqxA33k=f+M-LS-c-Y+zTAepBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206260710330.5652@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <20120627085709.c0fb895c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <E1SkPP2-0003oq-4G@shell.xmission.com>


In article <20120627085709.c0fb895c.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>,
    Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> writes:

> hangs off USB. The connectors are spread around all four edges of the
> PCB. This makes it quite hard to put it into a proper enclosure.

That's odd.  Somebody just printed one up for a raspberry pi last
night at the maker meeting.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Jun 28 20:15:52 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 19:15:52 -0600
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff 
In-Reply-To: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
References: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
Message-ID: <E1SkPoO-0005ty-SR@shell.xmission.com>


In article <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74 at vostro>,
    "Peter Van Peborgh" <peter at vanpeborgh.eu> writes:

> (about 200 miles apart within England for those of you in the USofA),
> [...]

200 miles?  That's nothing to those of us who live in the western US :-)
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Jun 28 20:18:07 2012
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 19:18:07 -0600
Subject: Southern haulage
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deBWL6Dsp4zWE-2n-80JjhT-E8MLyZ3_33U6hqX=5sYWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANij+deBWL6Dsp4zWE-2n-80JjhT-E8MLyZ3_33U6hqX=5sYWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1SkPqZ-000634-Mf@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CANij+deBWL6Dsp4zWE-2n-80JjhT-E8MLyZ3_33U6hqX=5sYWg at mail.gmail.com>,
    William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:

> Prices are pretty damn reasonable...

As a customer, I recommend Will's delivery services highly!  His
prices are reasonable and he knows hot to treat stuff with the proper
care it deserves.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> 
     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org> 
         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> 
  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Jun 28 20:23:03 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:23:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <E1SkPoO-0005ty-SR@shell.xmission.com>
References: <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74@vostro>
 <E1SkPoO-0005ty-SR@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <201206290123.VAA09263@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> (about 200 miles apart within England for those of you in the USofA),
> 200 miles?  That's nothing to those of us who live in the western US :-)

Q: What's the difference between a European and a North American?
A: The European thinks 100 miles is a long distance; the North American
   thinks 100 years is a long time.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 28 20:25:38 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:25:38 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FECF4F5.7010003@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <019001cd54b0$baf13680$30d3a380$@ntlworld.com>,
 <023801cd5581$6a64b760$3f2e2620$@ntlworld.com>,
 <4FECF4F5.7010003@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <4FECA1A2.28431.2181F60@cclist.sydex.com>

On 29 Jun 2012 at 1:21, Pete Turnbull wrote:

> It's not expensive -- all you need is a small bench vice -- and you
> can buy ribbon cable cheaply in short lengths, as well as inexpensive
> connectors,  from a variety of places including Maplin, that auction
> site, etc.  Even Farnell sell it in short lengths, but a good source
> is cast-off PC drive cables.

For those in the you-essay, JDR has a inexpensive hand tool:

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_73
252_-1

What's not shown is the accompanying plastic piece that, on one side 
has a groove to fit IDC edge connectors, and on the other side, a 
groove and keyway to fit header connectors.  I have one and it works 
very well--the jaws are kept parallel throughout the "squeeze".

The same tool can be had in the UK as eBay item 250960548725.  Price 
is ?12.69 with free shipping.  Note the yellow plastic piece.

But if you must use a vise, a drill-press vise is easier to use and 
has smooth jaws.  

--Chuck




From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Jun 28 20:28:21 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:28:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Tools was Re: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <m1SkKi2-000J4fC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SkKi2-000J4fC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201206290128.VAA09313@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> It's possible to measure ESR with a sine wave signal generator and a
> ;cope [...].  It gets boring fast, which is why there are ESR meters.

I would tend to think - perhaps na?vely - that ESR is based on
considering a capacitor as an ideal capacitor in series with an ideal
resistor, in which case an ordinary ohmmeter could be used to measure
ESR, provided the current it runs through the "resistance" under test
is low enough that the cap does not charge significantly during the
measurement.

Do I misunderstand?  Is there more to ESR meters than just working
around the "cap charging while measuring" issue?

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 22:30:38 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:30:38 -0400
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FECA1A2.28431.2181F60@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <019001cd54b0$baf13680$30d3a380$@ntlworld.com>
 <023801cd5581$6a64b760$3f2e2620$@ntlworld.com>
 <4FECF4F5.7010003@dunnington.plus.com>
 <4FECA1A2.28431.2181F60@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CDEC0647-79F8-4F03-85E8-A3C4F13FF75A@gmail.com>

On Jun 28, 2012, at 21:25, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 29 Jun 2012 at 1:21, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> 
>> It's not expensive -- all you need is a small bench vice -- and you
>> can buy ribbon cable cheaply in short lengths, as well as inexpensive
>> connectors,  from a variety of places including Maplin, that auction
>> site, etc.  Even Farnell sell it in short lengths, but a good source
>> is cast-off PC drive cables.
> 
> For those in the you-essay, JDR has a inexpensive hand tool:

Apologies in advance for long lines; can't count characters on the phone.

I've used a similar $20 hand tool with success. It's not a precision instrument, but the results worked and cost me a lot less than the Pertec cables would from a trader.

If I were doing more than a few one-offs, I'd get something better, but for something I use once a year for a non-precision, non-mission-critical thing, it'll do.


- Dave


From IanK at vulcan.com  Thu Jun 28 22:58:58 2012
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 03:58:58 +0000
Subject: Southern haulage
In-Reply-To: <E1SkPqZ-000634-Mf@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CC1275CB.133E1%iank@vulcan.com>

I concur.  Will has delivered some stuff to us and we had a very good
experience.  -- Ian

On 6/28/12 6:18 PM, "Richard" <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:

>
>In article 
><CANij+deBWL6Dsp4zWE-2n-80JjhT-E8MLyZ3_33U6hqX=5sYWg at mail.gmail.com>,
>    William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Prices are pretty damn reasonable...
>
>As a customer, I recommend Will's delivery services highly!  His
>prices are reasonable and he knows hot to treat stuff with the proper
>care it deserves.
>-- 
>"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
><http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
>     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
>         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
>  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
>
>





From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 28 22:59:41 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 20:59:41 -0700
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <4FEC9841.11725.1F37C87@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>, ,
 <4FEC2BA9.1076.4B4A79@cclist.sydex.com>, ,
 <4FECF1FB.5080805@dunnington.plus.com>,
 <4FEC9841.11725.1F37C87@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W24CB85D1BCB65F039EF544A3E50@phx.gbl>



 

> From: cclist at sydex.com
> 
> On 29 Jun 2012 at 1:08, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> 
> > Probably not, actually. My supplied-in-the-UK ASR33 is 50Hz and has a
> > 110V motor, and has a big transformer in the base to allow it to be
> > used on 240V AC mains. So have other UK models I've looked at.
> 
> Yup, Tony's made it clear that you folks in fifty-hurts land have a 
> transformer in the base. Strange, but true.
> 
> So, if the OP doesn't have one, he needs to find one.
> 
> --Chuck
> 

Hi
 I don't have my manuals at hand but it seems that I recall there
being a small transformer  that provided the current for the local
mode operation.
 I just don't recall the output voltage. If one knew what the voltage
was suppose to be, one could simply disconnect the motor and
then plug it into 110V. Measure the output of that transformer.
If half the specified voltage, it would be intended to be connected
to 220V.
 It is most likely a 110V, as several had said. If so, look around
for some old electronic gear or powersupplies. Most often they
have a split input that can be used as an auto-transformer.
That will get you the 110v from the 220v. The auto-transfomer
has the advantage that it only needs to carry 1/2 the power,
unlike a full isolation transformer that has to carry the full power.
Dwight
  		 	   		  

From IanK at vulcan.com  Thu Jun 28 23:04:24 2012
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 04:04:24 +0000
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff 
In-Reply-To: <E1SkPoO-0005ty-SR@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CC12763C.133E9%iank@vulcan.com>

Sometimes I think we should segregate this list by continent to diminish
the gnashing of teeth :-) but on the other hand some of us will sometimes
pay the way for EU (AU, etc.) kit, and I'd hate to miss out on it!  :-)
-- Ian 

On 6/28/12 6:15 PM, "Richard" <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:

>
>In article <A08B6819556040EF895868926D75ED74 at vostro>,
>    "Peter Van Peborgh" <peter at vanpeborgh.eu> writes:
>
>> (about 200 miles apart within England for those of you in the USofA),
>> [...]
>
>200 miles?  That's nothing to those of us who live in the western US :-)
>-- 
>"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
><http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
>     The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
>         The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
>  Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
>
>





From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Jun 28 23:08:10 2012
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:08:10 -0500
Subject: Teletype
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1340902801.24205.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1340902801.24205.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4FED2A2A.9010906@pico-systems.com>

Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 15:22:16 +0200
From: Sander Reiche <sander.reiche at gmail.com>
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
Message-ID:
	<CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1


    Hi all,

    Do you guys know of a failsafe way to check if a Teletype is for 110
    or 220V? I've bought one which has a power connector which seems like
    US mains. The motor is 50Hz, but I guess that won't make a difference.
    Any quick way to check without completely dismantling the machine?

Yes, the 50 Hz will DEFINITELY make a difference.  I think the ASR33
has mechanical send as well as receive, so the baud rates will
be off in both directions if you run it off the wrong line frequency.
But, the motors may be 50/60 Hz, I think they changed a gear to select
the mains frequency.

I guess try running it on 120 V, if the motor fails to start or
runs very sluggishly, then it is most likely a 240 V motor.

Jon



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Jun 28 23:30:04 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:30:04 -0700
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W24CB85D1BCB65F039EF544A3E50@phx.gbl>
References: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FEC9841.11725.1F37C87@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <SNT129-W24CB85D1BCB65F039EF544A3E50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4FECCCDC.5146.2C0FADA@cclist.sydex.com>

On 28 Jun 2012 at 20:59, dwight elvey wrote:

>  I don't have my manuals at hand but it seems that I recall there
> being a small transformer  that provided the current for the local
> mode operation.

Hasn't a step-down transformer that is made for use with power tools 
in the UK been mentioned before?  That would likely fit the need to a 
"T".  However, I don't know how easy it is to find NEMA receptacles 
in the UK, should the owner wish to keep the original line cord 
intact.

--Chuck
 


From lehmann at ans-netz.de  Fri Jun 29 00:10:13 2012
From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:10:13 +0200
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FEC7C6F.31785.186CF7C@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <019001cd54b0$baf13680$30d3a380$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob
 Jarratt" at Jun 27, 12 11:03:46 pm, <m1SkJgq-000J4YC@p850ug1>
 <4FEC7C6F.31785.186CF7C@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20120629071013.Horde.i5yrMqQd9PdP7Ti15rP5ChA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>


Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> It wasn't my intention to use edge connectors on the project, but
> rather double-row headers.

There are also MFM controllers around, where the cables are soldered
directly onto the controller. If the emulator now uses a different
connector, you would either have to build a cable adapter, or change
the original hardware.... both are not not the favorite way to go....

http://pics.pofo.de/gallery3/index.php/community_events/2009_03_KC_Treffen/P1070405


From iamvirtual at gmail.com  Thu Jun 28 11:32:19 2012
From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:32:19 -0600
Subject: Found a Mattel Aquarius
In-Reply-To: <4FEB88EB.1030106@socal.rr.com>
References: <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
	<4FEB88EB.1030106@socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: <CADzUgt4DQ__upHPMKPf4eMJFARCiGYeG-5AVOqZssWFvt3CsCA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,  I am interested in the Aim65 stuff.

Thanks

--barrym

On Wednesday, June 27, 2012, Mike Ford wrote:

> Going through my "junk", unfortunately a bunch of stuff will have to go,
> fortunately time has corrected my mental picture of much of its value and
> its now just old stuff.
>
> Not on that list;
>
> I found what appears to be a new Mattel Aquarius, minus box but still in
> its original bag with Styrofoam packing. I know I have an Intellivision
> around someplace too, but in nothing like this condition.
>
> Three boxes of Aim65, Sym, and Kym stuff, complete boards, parts, some
> docs.
>
> On the list of things I doubt have any or much value or interest;
>
> Box of 9 track tapes, VHS tapes, Hi8, DAT 120, audio cassettes.
>
> Big box of printer ribbons, much smaller box of HP plotter pens.
>
> Assortment of HP and Compaq 486 and Pentium class desktops, thinking I
> will pick one type and keep two.
>
> Dozen or so IBM PS2 model 25 to I think 95, again thinking I will pick one
> or two specific models and keep two each.
>
> Old big monitors are going to recycle as fast as I dig them out, but some
> are going to be hard for me to toss, two are brand new a Viking and a
> Silcon something, they made medical doc systems I recall.
>
> Bulk are old, but not real old Macs, maybe two dozen SE or SE/30 I have
> stacked around, various pizza boxes and LC types.
>
> Sorry didn't mean to make this into whats going post, but will need to
> make one of those soon enough.
>
> I'm in City of Orange, Cal. Email me directly at mikeford at socal.rr.com if
> your are local and interested in something. Things that do have some value
> I may try selling, but plenty will be free to a good home.
>
> Blame it all on the HOA, after 25 years they have decided no parking on
> the street unless you have two cars in the garage, and no driveway parking
> if any part reaches the curb.
>


From nico at farumdata.dk  Fri Jun 29 00:49:18 2012
From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico at farumdata.dk)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:49:18 +0200
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <4FECF1FB.5080805@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEC2BA9.1076.4B4A79@cclist.sydex.com>
 <4FECF1FB.5080805@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <01fecc12e1ecd05c203953de6c650dba.squirrel@farumdata.dk>

> On 28/06/2012 18:02, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> On 28 Jun 2012 at 15:22, Sander Reiche wrote:
>>
>>> Do you guys know of a failsafe way to check if a Teletype is for 110
>>> or 220V? I've bought one which has a power connector which seems like
>>> US mains. The motor is 50Hz, but I guess that won't make a difference.
>>> Any quick way to check without completely dismantling the machine?
>>
>> If the motor is verifiably 50Hz, the probability is overwhelming that
>> it's 220V.
>
> Probably not, actually.  My supplied-in-the-UK ASR33 is 50Hz and has a
> 110V motor, and has a big transformer in the base to allow it to be used
> on 240V AC mains.  So have other UK models I've looked at.
>
And the same goes for the danish models I've laid eyes on.
/Nico



From tothwolf at concentric.net  Fri Jun 29 01:10:33 2012
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:10:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Found a Mattel Aquarius
In-Reply-To: <201206281957.q5SJvoRe15270116@floodgap.com>
References: <201206281957.q5SJvoRe15270116@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290107110.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

>>     HOA wants to make you park your cars on your garage? Why don't you say
>> to them to (insert lots of filthy expletives here)???? :oO
>
> Obviously you have never lived in a development with an activist HOA (hint:
> lots and lots of fines and legal crap). Glad I don't.

Meh. More people just need an old ugly fiberglass boat and other assorted 
"yard art" for their front lawns :) If even a small percentage of people 
did this, such HOAs wouldn't be able to do this.


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Fri Jun 29 01:13:26 2012
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 23:13:26 -0700
Subject: HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
In-Reply-To: <4FECE109.6080508@cimmeri.com>
References: <mailman.686.1340776474.1082.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <4FECE109.6080508@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <4FED4786.4030306@mail.msu.edu>


On 6/28/2012 3:56 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
>
> Josh, IIRC, you need to have an 8" floppy in for the testing.

According to the service manual, there are two tests built in -- one 
with a disk, one without.  The one without tests the controller board's 
functionality (I assume ram/rom/CPU) and that's the one that's currently 
failing.  The second test exercises the drive. On my particular unit, 
running the disk-based test fails as well -- the light goes out but it's 
pretty clear that it isn't executing the test it should be (aside from 
loading the heads, there's almost no disk activity.)

Thanks,
Josh


>
> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
> Subject:
> HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
> From:
> Josh Dersch <derschjo at mail.msu.edu>
> Date:
> Tue, 26 Jun 2012 21:16:48 -0700
>
> To:
> General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>
> Hi all --
>
> Picked up a (mostly) complete HP 9885M (8" floppy drive) set up for my 
> HP 9825 computer.  I have the 9885M drive itself, a 98032A interface, 
> and the "Flexible Disk Drive" ROM pak for the 9825.  I am 
> unfortunately missing the "9825A Disk System Cartridge" tape (hp p/n 
> 09885-90035).  Any ideas if this has been archived anywhere?  I 
> haven't found it in my searches. (Not that I currently have any means 
> to get it onto my 9825...) Looks like this is actually required in 
> order to format disks. Sigh...
>
> Unfortunately, the drive appears to be failing the built-in 
> diagnostic; there's a single LED that goes on when the test starts and 
> it's supposed to go out within a minute if the diagnostic's passed.  
> The LED on mine just stays on permanently.  Unfortunately that's the 
> -only- diagnostic indicator on the unit.  I've read through the 
> service manual and unless I'm missing something it doesn't really 
> describe how to go about narrowing down the problem.  There's a 
> flowchart that basically says "if the light doesn't go out, it's a 
> problem with the controller in the drive unit" which seems fairly 
> obvious...
>
> The service manual mentions a diagnostic on the tape, but I don't have 
> this to aid me.  Anyone have any experience with these drives?  Any 
> pointers for starting out?  (I've checked the obvious things -- the 
> power supply voltages look good, etc).
>
> Thanks as always,
> Josh
>




From tothwolf at concentric.net  Fri Jun 29 01:23:02 2012
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:23:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <m1SkJgq-000J4YC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SkJgq-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290115440.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, Tony Duell wrote:

>> Yes, I realised after sending the email that I would really need the PCB
>> side of things. I think there are kits for making one-off PCBs, so I could
>
> Yes, there are home etching kits, but making edge conenctor patters is
> not trivial. Layign them out and etchign them is, but if you leave them
> as bae copper they will oxidise fast and you'll get poor connections.
> Tinnign them helps, but the best thign to do is gold-plate them and
> that's not somethign you can sensibly do at home (the chemicals involved
> are very toxic -- cyanides, for example). Not all PCB manufacturers can
> do gold plating either.

Gold plating has become much easier (it actually is /possible/ to even do 
a DIY approach with an adjustable current power supply and the right 
supplies) but the consumable supplies, including the gold solution are 
still somewhat expensive. I've looked into this extensively while 
researching repair methods for some boards that I picked up surplus that 
someone attempted to -sandpaper- the gold off of the card edge connectors. 
[Yes, most likely done by a wannabe get-rich-quick gold fever type 
person.] In my case the base copper and tin plate are intact, and I'm 
thinking about just sending the boards off to have someone else repair the 
plating. The hard part is still justifying the cost, even though the 
boards are very hard to find.


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Fri Jun 29 01:38:59 2012
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:38:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/?
 adaptor
In-Reply-To: <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, Mark Benson wrote:

> I don't talk much on here because most of the time I am in awe of most
> of you guys fixing things and sharing knowledge at levels I don't have
> the tools or the talent to aspire to, and hays off it's awesome.
>
> Fact is though, this thread is starting to have echoes of that guy at
> HP that said he could only see a market for 5 computers at most.
>
> I have a Raspberry Pi and run it 24/7 as an emulated VAX 3900 using
> SimH. It does a damn good job of it too.

I work with a lot of embedded boards these days. Design wise, I rather 
like the Raspberry Pi.

My single gripe with the project is their choice of Farnell/Newark as 
their retail distributor. Newark as they are better known in the US has an 
enormous markup on parts and materials and I've had so many bad 
experiences with them (including overnight shipping not shipping out for 
3-4 days on /multiple/ occasions) that I will simply not deal with 
Farnell/Newark unless there is absolutely no way I can avoid doing so.

With my latest experience with Newark last year, they charged me $18 for a 
small heat sink plus $20 for UPS ground shipping (that they -finally- 
shipped out about 5 days later) PLUS local sales tax for an out of state 
purchase. All total, about $58.00 USD for a small aluminum heat sink that 
was less than 1LB shipped. That part was for a rush repair job, and I ate 
the cost, but I vowed to never deal with Newark again.

By the time Newark tacks on all their fees, that "inexpensive" Raspberry 
Pi is no longer inexpensive by any definition. Until the Raspberry Pi is 
available via another distributor, I will not buy one.


From tothwolf at concentric.net  Fri Jun 29 01:55:17 2012
From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:55:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKx==Ne3qLLTmqsoG1s8HWYVvVYR8LMpi3wEWj4zQAHHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019001cd54b0$baf13680$30d3a380$@ntlworld.com>
 <m1SkJgq-000J4YC@p850ug1> <023801cd5581$6a64b760$3f2e2620$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAM2UOwKx==Ne3qLLTmqsoG1s8HWYVvVYR8LMpi3wEWj4zQAHHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290142350.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>

On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, Glen Slick wrote:

> As in a lot of situations using the proper tools makes the job much
> easier, although the proper tools can be crazy expensive if you buy
> them at new list prices.
>
> For assembling ribbon cables I picked up a 3M Scotchflex press setup
> from eBay.  The Mouser or Digi-Key list prices are something like
> this:
> 3316 Universal Press, $1976
> 3458 Locator Plate Riser Block, $735
> 3443-94 Locater Plate, $741
> I forget how much I paid for this setup.  Probably somewhere around $75-$100.

I have some similar tooling (along with the rest of my ribbon cable tools) 
and I'd say you got a heck of a deal. If you are patient, deals like that 
turn up a couple times a year on eBay.

> My first attempts at building 50-conductor cables with header
> connectors on one end and card edge connectors on the other to
> interface between a Pertec tape drive and controller resulted in a few
> broken connectors before I gave up and bought a proper press.

The wider the connector the more force required and the more likely you'll 
break the alignment and retaining tabs without proper tooling. 10pin to 
~30pin IDS connectors can be done in a small hand vice with flat jaws, but 
wider connectors (~40pins and up) and "Blue Ribbon" [Centronics] 
(Amphernol/T&B Ansley) type connectors of any size require proper tooling 
to not damage them. The cheap D-shaped hand tools (non-ratcheting) can 
work for one-off jobs, but after you press even 3-4 >30pin connectors with 
one, your hands will be sore.

> Ribbon cable is also expensive if you buy it at new list prices.  I've
> bought new 100 foot boxes of 3M 1700 (rainbow twist), 3302 (rainbow
> straight), and 3365 (grey) on eBay at prices I considered reasonable
> per foot.  If you only need to build a single cable that would be
> expensive.

Indeed. I too have purchased cable this way, but for most people it would 
be too expensive for a one-off 18"-30" cable.

Other than a proper press though, from personal experience I think the 
single most important tool for making reliable ribbon cables is a proper 
ribbon cable cutter with a sharp blade. If you cut ribbon cable with 
scissors, the end will be ragged and the potential for shorts exists. It 
/can/ be cut with a sharp razor blade or heavy xacto knife, but if you 
need to make more than 1-2 cuts with narrow cable, the experience will 
tend to be very frustrating.


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Fri Jun 29 01:55:59 2012
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 02:55:59 -0400
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff 
References: <CC12763C.133E9%iank@vulcan.com>
Message-ID: <28BB448914CB42C79FDF52CD0988A6B4@hd2600xt6a04f7>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian King" <IanK at vulcan.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff


> Sometimes I think we should segregate this list by continent to diminish
> the gnashing of teeth :-) but on the other hand some of us will sometimes
> pay the way for EU (AU, etc.) kit, and I'd hate to miss out on it!  :-)
> -- Ian
>

I think I snagged an EISA IDE caching controller card from a UK member years 
ago from this list. Generally its just software or small hard to find parts 
that I will spring for overseas shipping since shipping is getting more 
expensive it seems every year. Even getting items from Canada has become 
expensive (I have shipped monitors over before).




From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 02:42:50 2012
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 09:42:50 +0200
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <01fecc12e1ecd05c203953de6c650dba.squirrel@farumdata.dk>
References: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEC2BA9.1076.4B4A79@cclist.sydex.com>
 <4FECF1FB.5080805@dunnington.plus.com>
 <01fecc12e1ecd05c203953de6c650dba.squirrel@farumdata.dk>
Message-ID: <CACStewaXhSeQvD1agfHeHiexHs879tbLoQhfuDg_DBaAxy-cNw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 7:49 AM,  <nico at farumdata.dk> wrote:
>> On 28/06/2012 18:02, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>> On 28 Jun 2012 at 15:22, Sander Reiche wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you guys know of a failsafe way to check if a Teletype is for 110
>>>> or 220V? I've bought one which has a power connector which seems like
>>>> US mains. The motor is 50Hz, but I guess that won't make a difference.
>>>> Any quick way to check without completely dismantling the machine?
>>>
>>> If the motor is verifiably 50Hz, the probability is overwhelming that
>>> it's 220V.
>>
>> Probably not, actually. ?My supplied-in-the-UK ASR33 is 50Hz and has a
>> 110V motor, and has a big transformer in the base to allow it to be used
>> on 240V AC mains. ?So have other UK models I've looked at.
>>
> And the same goes for the danish models I've laid eyes on.
> /Nico
>

All this talk about the transformer in the base made my think. I
didn't get a base with this one, but did get a separate large
transformer. Now only to find the place within the ASR to put that
weird connector.
http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/220v4.jpg

re,

Sander



From george at rachors.com  Fri Jun 29 03:05:53 2012
From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:05:53 -0700
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <D5A85645-74B5-4DFE-B301-507939866C47@rachors.com>

I was wondering if the Raspberry Pi might be used as a very lightweight xbmc fronted?..

George Rachor

george at rachors.com




On Jun 28, 2012, at 11:38 PM, Tothwolf wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, Mark Benson wrote:
> 
>> I don't talk much on here because most of the time I am in awe of most
>> of you guys fixing things and sharing knowledge at levels I don't have
>> the tools or the talent to aspire to, and hays off it's awesome.
>> 
>> Fact is though, this thread is starting to have echoes of that guy at
>> HP that said he could only see a market for 5 computers at most.
>> 
>> I have a Raspberry Pi and run it 24/7 as an emulated VAX 3900 using
>> SimH. It does a damn good job of it too.
> 
> I work with a lot of embedded boards these days. Design wise, I rather like the Raspberry Pi.
> 
> My single gripe with the project is their choice of Farnell/Newark as their retail distributor. Newark as they are better known in the US has an enormous markup on parts and materials and I've had so many bad experiences with them (including overnight shipping not shipping out for 3-4 days on /multiple/ occasions) that I will simply not deal with Farnell/Newark unless there is absolutely no way I can avoid doing so.
> 
> With my latest experience with Newark last year, they charged me $18 for a small heat sink plus $20 for UPS ground shipping (that they -finally- shipped out about 5 days later) PLUS local sales tax for an out of state purchase. All total, about $58.00 USD for a small aluminum heat sink that was less than 1LB shipped. That part was for a rush repair job, and I ate the cost, but I vowed to never deal with Newark again.
> 
> By the time Newark tacks on all their fees, that "inexpensive" Raspberry Pi is no longer inexpensive by any definition. Until the Raspberry Pi is available via another distributor, I will not buy one.
> 




From george at rachors.com  Fri Jun 29 03:24:36 2012
From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:24:36 -0700
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <4442543C-BC24-4D8F-9E0C-A894BDB98620@rachors.com>

Hey is the ppc based Powermac G5 old enough yet for discussion?

I inherited a ppc based mac tower.  It looks to be the last version prior to going to a Intel based processor.

I set it up a couple of weeks ago (long enough to do a time machine backup) but when I started it up last night it doesn't seem to start and I can't quite match the observed symptoms with known troubleshooting hints.

On plugging into power:
	I do here relays click inside.

On pushbutton start:
	The power indication goes out immediately when letting go of the button.
	I hear the disk drive start.
	I can hear the fans start as well.  After about 5 minutes the fans start speeding up faster and faster.
	(I pulled the plug at that point)

I haven't found anything on the web about this particular symptom?. (at least the light not staying on)

Any ideas?

George Rachor
Hillsboro, Oregon






From md.benson at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 03:44:35 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 09:44:35 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <3070267.8004.1340958022440.JavaMail.mobile-sync@veji13>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <3070267.8004.1340958022440.JavaMail.mobile-sync@veji13>
Message-ID: <-7978254607298354594@unknownmsgid>

There os a team actively working on a Raspberry Pi version of xbmc.
There's a link on the RPi website somewhere.

-- 
Mark Benson

http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson

On 29 Jun 2012, at 09:13, George Rachor <george at rachors.com> wrote:

> I was wondering if the Raspberry Pi might be used as a very lightweight xbmc fronted?..
>
> George Rachor
>
> george at rachors.com
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 28, 2012, at 11:38 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, Mark Benson wrote:
>>
>>> I don't talk much on here because most of the time I am in awe of most
>>> of you guys fixing things and sharing knowledge at levels I don't have
>>> the tools or the talent to aspire to, and hays off it's awesome.
>>>
>>> Fact is though, this thread is starting to have echoes of that guy at
>>> HP that said he could only see a market for 5 computers at most.
>>>
>>> I have a Raspberry Pi and run it 24/7 as an emulated VAX 3900 using
>>> SimH. It does a damn good job of it too.
>>
>> I work with a lot of embedded boards these days. Design wise, I rather like the Raspberry Pi.
>>
>> My single gripe with the project is their choice of Farnell/Newark as their retail distributor. Newark as they are better known in the US has an enormous markup on parts and materials and I've had so many bad experiences with them (including overnight shipping not shipping out for 3-4 days on /multiple/ occasions) that I will simply not deal with Farnell/Newark unless there is absolutely no way I can avoid doing so.
>>
>> With my latest experience with Newark last year, they charged me $18 for a small heat sink plus $20 for UPS ground shipping (that they -finally- shipped out about 5 days later) PLUS local sales tax for an out of state purchase. All total, about $58.00 USD for a small aluminum heat sink that was less than 1LB shipped. That part was for a rush repair job, and I ate the cost, but I vowed to never deal with Newark again.
>>
>> By the time Newark tacks on all their fees, that "inexpensive" Raspberry Pi is no longer inexpensive by any definition. Until the Raspberry Pi is available via another distributor, I will not buy one.
>>
>
>



From md.benson at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 04:11:49 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:11:49 +0100
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <16446803.8622.1340960649971.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vecuf6>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <16446803.8622.1340960649971.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vecuf6>
Message-ID: <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>

Hi,

This is a generic fixit for PowerPC Macs but always worth a try:

- Unplug the unit from the mains.
- Remove the NVRAM battery
- Leave to stand for *at least* 2-3 hours
- Power up

The issue is the NVRAM (referred to as PRAM on a Mac just to be
contrary) becomes corrupt as the battery runs down. If the machine has
been stood unused for a long time it may have this aforementioned
amnesia.

I have, however, heard a lot of sorry tales of PowerMac G5s suffering
all manner of weird problems with PSUs, leaking liquid coolers and
more. It's worth thoroughly checking the whole system over before
proceeding.

-- 
Mark Benson

http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson


From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Fri Jun 29 04:17:35 2012
From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:17:35 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.63.1206290956490.18209@azu.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>

On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, Sander Reiche wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Do you guys know of a failsafe way to check if a Teletype is for 110
> or 220V? I've bought one which has a power connector which seems like
> US mains. The motor is 50Hz, but I guess that won't make a difference.
> Any quick way to check without completely dismantling the machine?

Things are not so simple. A look in the parts list 1184B for the teletype
shows that there were 5 different motors. The parts list on bitsavers
is that from 1973. It has only 4 motors. Our parts list from 1974 shows
a "new" 5th motor.
Motors:
  182241  1.6 Amp 60Hz
  182267  1.7 Amp 50Hz

  181870  2.0 Amp 60Hz
  181861  0.8 Amp 60Hz  (No longer available, use 181870)

and the 5th motor:
  183991  (no data given)
  from the picture, this motor seems to have a centrifugal governor.
  So it is eventually adjustable for 50/60 Hz.
  From the Amperage, the 181861 seems to be a 220V motor, which seems
  strange in conjunction with 60Hz. Perhaps a typo? But these data is
  identical in the 1973 and in the 1974 catalogue.

And to make things even more difficult, there is a second table for
pairs of gear sets which are to be used for different motors and
transmission speeds.
The given speeds long from 60 to 100 WPS.

Another fact: In some of our 220V 50Hz machine there are step down
transformers in the piedestal, in some not. Maybe that those machines
were feed from step down transformers in the 19"-rack of the
computermachinery they were used with.


Klemens

--

klemens krause
http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de



From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Fri Jun 29 04:32:36 2012
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:32:36 +0100
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <16446803.8622.1340960649971.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vecuf6>
 <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqH3ugziVBtHRXzXMEBPrM166_HDGhA2waDSsftO4Yuk-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> This is a generic fixit for PowerPC Macs but always worth a try:
>
> - Unplug the unit from the mains.
> - Remove the NVRAM battery
> - Leave to stand for *at least* 2-3 hours
> - Power up
>
> The issue is the NVRAM (referred to as PRAM on a Mac just to be
> contrary) becomes corrupt as the battery runs down. If the machine has
> been stood unused for a long time it may have this aforementioned
> amnesia.
>
> I have, however, heard a lot of sorry tales of PowerMac G5s suffering
> all manner of weird problems with PSUs, leaking liquid coolers and
> more. It's worth thoroughly checking the whole system over before
> proceeding.

Check the PRAM battery is good, and replace if necessary.

Yes, at the Mac shop, this made 98% of dead Macs come alive.

Apple got sued at the time, because the solution in the manual was
"replace the main board" for hundreds of dollars, instead of, replace
the PRAM battery, for seven dollars.
-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be
fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better?

Amelia: Yeah.

Doctor: Everything's going to be fine.



From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com  Fri Jun 29 04:35:14 2012
From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:35:14 +0100
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <4FECF1FB.5080805@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FEC2BA9.1076.4B4A79@cclist.sydex.com>
 <4FECF1FB.5080805@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <EEE766F21B494C939397CA677CF83700@Edicons.local>

1. Use a Variac or 230v to 110v Auto transformer.
2. You will soon find out if its 110v or 230v

Regards 
?
Rod Smallwood
?

-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull
Sent: 29 June 2012 01:08
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?

On 28/06/2012 18:02, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 28 Jun 2012 at 15:22, Sander Reiche wrote:
> 
>> Do you guys know of a failsafe way to check if a Teletype is for 110
>> or 220V? I've bought one which has a power connector which seems like
>> US mains. The motor is 50Hz, but I guess that won't make a difference.
>> Any quick way to check without completely dismantling the machine?
> 
> If the motor is verifiably 50Hz, the probability is overwhelming that 
> it's 220V.

Probably not, actually.  My supplied-in-the-UK ASR33 is 50Hz and has a
110V motor, and has a big transformer in the base to allow it to be used
on 240V AC mains.  So have other UK models I've looked at.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York





From david at cantrell.org.uk  Fri Jun 29 05:44:15 2012
From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:44:15 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <m1SkKqX-000J4gC@p850ug1>
References: <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <m1SkKqX-000J4gC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20120629104415.GA7608@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 08:57:39PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
> > > The Rpi board is only part of what you need. You also need a PSU, 
> > > keyboard, mouse, USB hub, SD card and some kind of monitor. Even without the 
> > > last, that would essentailyl double the cost of the device. Please don't 
> > > tell me I can find those extras in the trash/junk box. I can't. My junk 
> > > box doesn't contain PC bits. It does contain enugh to build a computer 
> > > from scatch though.
> > But most normal people who might be interested *do* have all of those.
> How many people have all those and don't have a computer to conenct them 
> to? Why but an Rpi rather than just using said computer.

All kinds of reasons.  I, for example, want something small and
cheap that I can dedicate to my experiments with model railway control.
My other computers are either not small and compact, or not cheap, and
they're all already in use.

Small is obviously good.  Cheap is necessary because I will need more
than one.  And I want something that can run a Unixy OS because of
availability of good dev tools that I'm familiar with.  I *could* beat
my chest manfully and build my own computers out of string and angry
weasels, but I have better things to do with my time - such as actually
controlling trains.

> > > And then there's the OS. From what I understnad the Rpi doesn't come wit 
> > > hthe OS. You have to download it onto an SD card yourself. That's a major 
> > > problem for me. 
> > If downloading it and putting it onto an SD card is too difficult, then
> It is, if you hae a slow dial-up line and no SD card interface on your PC 
> (both apply to me). 

I'm very sorry to hear that.

But those don't apply to the vast majority of people who might be
interested.

> > > But as I saidm, watch for hidden costs...
> > They're not hidden.
> IMHOP they are. People keep quoting the price for the Rpi board, not a 
> complete working set-up. 

The Raspberry Pi website makes it clear.  As do the websites selling it.
They are not hidden.

Let's add up the total extra costs that most people will have:

keyboard:       0
mouse:          0
SD card:        0
[have you spotted the theme yet?]
power supply:   0
cables:         0
SD card reader: some people might need this GBP 2-ish
case:           some people might want this GBP 8-ish
monitor:        this is the only one that might actually be common GBP 50

You are making the common mistake of extrapolating from your rather
personal circumstances and assuming that what would be additional costs
for you are also additional costs for large numbers of other people.

-- 
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

    It's my experience that neither users nor customers can articulate
    what it is they want, nor can they evaluate it when they see it
        -- Alan Cooper


From george at rachors.com  Fri Jun 29 05:47:55 2012
From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 03:47:55 -0700
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <16446803.8622.1340960649971.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vecuf6>
 <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <421D086D-B2E9-4FC1-9A97-336E3E86C452@rachors.com>

Thanks Mark!

George

george at rachors.com

On Jun 29, 2012, at 2:11 AM, Mark Benson wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> This is a generic fixit for PowerPC Macs but always worth a try:
> 
> - Unplug the unit from the mains.
> - Remove the NVRAM battery
> - Leave to stand for *at least* 2-3 hours
> - Power up
> 
> The issue is the NVRAM (referred to as PRAM on a Mac just to be
> contrary) becomes corrupt as the battery runs down. If the machine has
> been stood unused for a long time it may have this aforementioned
> amnesia.
> 
> I have, however, heard a lot of sorry tales of PowerMac G5s suffering
> all manner of weird problems with PSUs, leaking liquid coolers and
> more. It's worth thoroughly checking the whole system over before
> proceeding.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Benson
> 
> http://markbenson.org/blog
> http://twitter.com/MDBenson
> 



From george at rachors.com  Fri Jun 29 05:48:50 2012
From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 03:48:50 -0700
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqH3ugziVBtHRXzXMEBPrM166_HDGhA2waDSsftO4Yuk-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <16446803.8622.1340960649971.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vecuf6>
 <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>
 <CAEvVyqH3ugziVBtHRXzXMEBPrM166_HDGhA2waDSsftO4Yuk-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FB0322C0-54C4-4010-A301-2D5155A4D62C@rachors.com>

Thanks!

George

george at rachors.com


On Jun 29, 2012, at 2:32 AM, John Many Jars wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> This is a generic fixit for PowerPC Macs but always worth a try:
>> 
>> - Unplug the unit from the mains.
>> - Remove the NVRAM battery
>> - Leave to stand for *at least* 2-3 hours
>> - Power up
>> 
>> The issue is the NVRAM (referred to as PRAM on a Mac just to be
>> contrary) becomes corrupt as the battery runs down. If the machine has
>> been stood unused for a long time it may have this aforementioned
>> amnesia.
>> 
>> I have, however, heard a lot of sorry tales of PowerMac G5s suffering
>> all manner of weird problems with PSUs, leaking liquid coolers and
>> more. It's worth thoroughly checking the whole system over before
>> proceeding.
> 
> Check the PRAM battery is good, and replace if necessary.
> 
> Yes, at the Mac shop, this made 98% of dead Macs come alive.
> 
> Apple got sued at the time, because the solution in the manual was
> "replace the main board" for hundreds of dollars, instead of, replace
> the PRAM battery, for seven dollars.
> -- 
> Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
> Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
> 
> --------
> Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be
> fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better?
> 
> Amelia: Yeah.
> 
> Doctor: Everything's going to be fine.
> 
> 



From md.benson at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 06:01:51 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:01:51 +0100
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <9388434.9312.1340963505903.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vebgt3>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <16446803.8622.1340960649971.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vecuf6>
 <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>
 <9388434.9312.1340963505903.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vebgt3>
Message-ID: <1427768323692949966@unknownmsgid>

On 29 Jun 2012, at 10:37, John Many Jars <john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote:

> Check the PRAM battery is good, and replace if necessary.
>
> Yes, at the Mac shop, this made 98% of dead Macs come alive.
>
> Apple got sued at the time, because the solution in the manual was
> "replace the main board" for hundreds of dollars, instead of, replace
> the PRAM battery, for seven dollars.

Ultimately, yes, it needs a new battery but in my experience replacing
the PRAM battery with a fresh one doesn't always work straight off the
bat - went through this with a 7300, 9600 and a G3 Blue, all needed
leaving to forget their PRAM settings before they'd power on. *Then*
when you power off and fit the new battery tgey work fine. Back in the
days when I used to hang around on the PCI PowerMacs list and the
G-List at LowEndMac this was a well known proceedure and got repeated
to people who'd already replaced the PRAM battery many times. I have
to admit I panicked the first time it happened to me on my 7300 but an
experienced tech told me how to fix it.

In Apple's defence, the difference between a dead PRAM battery/corrupt
PRAM and the symptoms of a board failure are indistinguishable, hence
why a lot of people think the machine is dead when it actually isn't.
They should at least have issued an adendum, however, so the law suit
was appropriate.

-- 
Mark Benson

http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson


From george at rachors.com  Fri Jun 29 06:12:20 2012
From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 04:12:20 -0700
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqH3ugziVBtHRXzXMEBPrM166_HDGhA2waDSsftO4Yuk-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <16446803.8622.1340960649971.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vecuf6>
 <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>
 <CAEvVyqH3ugziVBtHRXzXMEBPrM166_HDGhA2waDSsftO4Yuk-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D7C5E31F-4303-4B0D-BD87-CF5276E105BE@rachors.com>

Hmmmm,,

I had pulled the battery for only a few minutes?..
I'm leaving the power unplugged and the battery out overnight?

Thanks folks!

George


On Jun 29, 2012, at 2:32 AM, John Many Jars wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 10:11 AM, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> This is a generic fixit for PowerPC Macs but always worth a try:
>> 
>> - Unplug the unit from the mains.
>> - Remove the NVRAM battery
>> - Leave to stand for *at least* 2-3 hours
>> - Power up
>> 
>> The issue is the NVRAM (referred to as PRAM on a Mac just to be
>> contrary) becomes corrupt as the battery runs down. If the machine has
>> been stood unused for a long time it may have this aforementioned
>> amnesia.
>> 
>> I have, however, heard a lot of sorry tales of PowerMac G5s suffering
>> all manner of weird problems with PSUs, leaking liquid coolers and
>> more. It's worth thoroughly checking the whole system over before
>> proceeding.
> 
> Check the PRAM battery is good, and replace if necessary.
> 
> Yes, at the Mac shop, this made 98% of dead Macs come alive.
> 
> Apple got sued at the time, because the solution in the manual was
> "replace the main board" for hundreds of dollars, instead of, replace
> the PRAM battery, for seven dollars.
> -- 
> Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
> Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
> 
> --------
> Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be
> fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better?
> 
> Amelia: Yeah.
> 
> Doctor: Everything's going to be fine.
> 
> 




From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Fri Jun 29 06:19:05 2012
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:19:05 +0100
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <1427768323692949966@unknownmsgid>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <16446803.8622.1340960649971.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vecuf6>
 <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>
 <9388434.9312.1340963505903.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vebgt3>
 <1427768323692949966@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqEXoA5T0iZZ9gzaubC9yiC=hfRJ=DwoyXuMLmNr5fbBCg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ultimately, yes, it needs a new battery but in my experience replacing
> the PRAM battery with a fresh one doesn't always work straight off the
> bat - went through this with a 7300, 9600 and a G3 Blue, all needed
> leaving to forget their PRAM settings before they'd power on. *Then*
> when you power off and fit the new battery tgey work fine. Back in the
> days when I used to hang around on the PCI PowerMacs list and the
> G-List at LowEndMac this was a well known proceedure and got repeated
> to people who'd already replaced the PRAM battery many times. I have
> to admit I panicked the first time it happened to me on my 7300 but an
> experienced tech told me how to fix it.

Absolutely.  We used to leave them overnight, with no battery...

>
> In Apple's defence, the difference between a dead PRAM battery/corrupt
> PRAM and the symptoms of a board failure are indistinguishable, hence
> why a lot of people think the machine is dead when it actually isn't.
> They should at least have issued an adendum, however, so the law suit
> was appropriate.

Yeah.  They must have known about it, it had been going on for years.
After dealing with them back in the day (this was in the lost years
without Jobs when they couldn't come up with a new OS and were going
slowly broke) I have no sympathy for them what-so-ever. (;

(I remember incidents like customers having to wait 14 MONTHS for a
motherboard, which was on a Mac under warranty.  Guess who took the
shouting for that?  Not Apple.)
-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be
fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better?

Amelia: Yeah.

Doctor: Everything's going to be fine.



From christian_liendo at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 29 07:07:24 2012
From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 05:07:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America
In-Reply-To: <201206281424.KAA02273@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <201206281424.KAA02273@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <1340971644.21075.YahooMailNeo@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I was lucky to get a Pi and I have been playing with it.
To me it's something that's interesting and there are already a software you can download to make it play MAME and XMBC. 
Is it replacing a full computer? No.. Is it giving me some fun for a total of like $65, yea...

I have spent more money on less technology I can tell ya. 
Actually I think I paid more for my arduino



From md.benson at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 08:01:27 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 14:01:27 +0100
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <20917997.9333.1340974627638.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vebzx8>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <16446803.8622.1340960649971.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vecuf6>
 <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>
 <CAEvVyqH3ugziVBtHRXzXMEBPrM166_HDGhA2waDSsftO4Yuk-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20917997.9333.1340974627638.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vebzx8>
Message-ID: <2112720644459259720@unknownmsgid>

On 29 Jun 2012, at 12:16, George Rachor <george at rachors.com> wrote:

> Hmmmm,,
>
> I had pulled the battery for only a few minutes?..
> I'm leaving the power unplugged and the battery out overnight?

Advisable. The minimum I ever had it work over was about 3 hours. I
usually left them overnight to stand in a corner and think about what
they'd done.

-- 
Mark Benson

http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Jun 29 03:30:59 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 01:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/?
 adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206290130020.9074@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 29 Jun 2012, Tothwolf wrote:

>
> By the time Newark tacks on all their fees, that "inexpensive" Raspberry Pi 
> is no longer inexpensive by any definition. Until the Raspberry Pi is 
> available via another distributor, I will not buy one.
>
I got mine from RS/Allied.  Total cost with shipping was about $40.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun 29 09:17:13 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:17:13 -0700
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290115440.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <m1SkJgq-000J4YC@p850ug1>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290115440.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <4FED5679.17837.23212A@cclist.sydex.com>

On 29 Jun 2012 at 1:23, Tothwolf wrote:

> Gold plating has become much easier (it actually is /possible/ to even
> do a DIY approach with an adjustable current power supply and the
> right supplies) but the consumable supplies, including the gold
> solution are still somewhat expensive. I've looked into this
> extensively while researching repair methods for some boards that I
> picked up surplus that someone attempted to -sandpaper- the gold off
> of the card edge connectors. [Yes, most likely done by a wannabe
> get-rich-quick gold fever type person.] In my case the base copper and
> tin plate are intact, and I'm thinking about just sending the boards
> off to have someone else repair the plating. The hard part is still
> justifying the cost, even though the boards are very hard to find.

You can even purchase gold electroplating pens, but the layer of gold 
that's deposited is very thin and soft--not something you'd expect a 
lot of life on with a surface that encounters any wear.  Gold for 
contacts is performed commercially in a multi-step process.

--Chuck
 




From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Jun 29 09:45:11 2012
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 07:45:11 -0700
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <16446803.8622.1340960649971.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vecuf6>
 <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <p06240813cc136c242e16@[192.168.1.199]>

At 10:11 AM +0100 6/29/12, Mark Benson wrote:
>I have, however, heard a lot of sorry tales of PowerMac G5s suffering
>all manner of weird problems with PSUs, leaking liquid coolers and
>more. It's worth thoroughly checking the whole system over before
>proceeding.

My Rev.0 Dual 2Ghz PowerMac G5 had more problems than even my DEC PWS 433au.

The G5 had a dead onboard NIC about 3 years before I retired it, and 
in the end it wouldn't boot except in standalone mode (whatever you 
call that on the Mac).  Thankfully it reached this point just after 
the late-2010 model was released (I was waiting for that to replace 
it).

I ran the DEC PWS 433au for several years with a dead PCI slot, and 
eventually replaced it with an XP1000/667.

I think something to consider with systems such as these is they 
aren't built to the standards of computers in the 80's. 
Realistically they are intended to last about 3 years and be 
replaced.  Those of us running Mac's (at least the people I know 
around here) tend to make them last a lot longer.  Those of us 
running OpenVMS have it even worse.

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Jun 29 10:36:38 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 08:36:38 -0700
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <4442543C-BC24-4D8F-9E0C-A894BDB98620@rachors.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <4442543C-BC24-4D8F-9E0C-A894BDB98620@rachors.com>
Message-ID: <4FEDCB86.6060008@bitsavers.org>

On 6/29/12 1:24 AM, George Rachor wrote:

> 	The power indication goes out immediately when letting go of the button.
> 	I hear the disk drive start.
> 	I can hear the fans start as well.  After about 5 minutes the fans start speeding up faster and faster.
> 	(I pulled the plug at that point)
>

The fans speed up because the system didn't boot, so the power management microcontroller goes into
failsafe mode (fans full on).

You should see the caps lock key flash once as Open Firmware starts up. If OF doesn't come up, try reseating
the DIMMs. The light flash will let you know if USB is working.

<cmd><opt>RP resets the parameter ram, and it should loop through the OF light flash sequence if you hold
the keys down. That may be enough to get video going.

<cmd><opt>OF breaks into the Open Firmware command loop. You should at least be able to tell if the video
is working by doing that.

Holding the mouse key down will open the CD tray. That is another clue as to how much of the system is
working.

If the machine was in an unknown environment, you should try to blow the dust out of the power supply in
the bottom (which isn't an easy thing to do). Many supply failures occur because of bad air circulation.

The problem with batteries occurred mostly on the Q605 systems, because the ADB microcontroller drew too
much power. Battery issues got worked out over time as the microcontroller folks got more experience with
power management on desktops.




From snhirsch at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 11:16:45 2012
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:16:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/?
 adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206290130020.9074@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206290130020.9074@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206291215200.6326@duo>

On Fri, 29 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Jun 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
>
>> 
>> By the time Newark tacks on all their fees, that "inexpensive" Raspberry Pi 
>> is no longer inexpensive by any definition. Until the Raspberry Pi is 
>> available via another distributor, I will not buy one.
>> 
> I got mine from RS/Allied.  Total cost with shipping was about $40.

I'd love to know how you all are getting ahold of them.  Just checked 
Newark and RS/Allied:

Newark:  Accepting orders > July 5

Allied:  "Not available" (no further information)



-- 



From md.benson at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 11:22:15 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 17:22:15 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206291215200.6326@duo>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206290130020.9074@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206291215200.6326@duo>
Message-ID: <4173246096347427903@unknownmsgid>

They likely pre-ordered or got lucky. RS and Farnell are currently
still filling back-orders as far as I know.

-- 
Mark Benson

http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson

On 29 Jun 2012, at 17:20, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
>>
>>> By the time Newark tacks on all their fees, that "inexpensive" Raspberry Pi is no longer inexpensive by any definition. Until the Raspberry Pi is available via another distributor, I will not buy one.
>> I got mine from RS/Allied.  Total cost with shipping was about $40.
>
> I'd love to know how you all are getting ahold of them.  Just checked Newark and RS/Allied:
>
> Newark:  Accepting orders > July 5
>
> Allied:  "Not available" (no further information)
>
>
>
> --
>


From spectre at floodgap.com  Fri Jun 29 11:32:19 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 09:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <p06240813cc136c242e16@[192.168.1.199]> from "Zane H. Healy" at
 "Jun 29, 12 07:45:11 am"
Message-ID: <201206291632.q5TGWJFU8978560@floodgap.com>

> > I have, however, heard a lot of sorry tales of PowerMac G5s suffering
> > all manner of weird problems with PSUs, leaking liquid coolers and
> > more. It's worth thoroughly checking the whole system over before
> > proceeding.
> 
> My Rev.0 Dual 2Ghz PowerMac G5 had more problems than even my DEC PWS 433au.

Those generation of G5s weren't too flash, and the liquid cooled ones were
worse.

Apple worked out most of these bugs by the time the quad G5 came out, which
is the one I own and has been rendering sterling service for close to seven
years. But like every G5, it's hot and power hungry.

G5 systems have a notorious reputation and I can't say it's undeserved.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- 1-GHz Pentium-III + Java + XSLT == 1-MHz 6502. -- Craig Bruce --------------


From spectre at floodgap.com  Fri Jun 29 11:46:26 2012
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 09:46:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <4442543C-BC24-4D8F-9E0C-A894BDB98620@rachors.com> from George
 Rachor at "Jun 29, 12 01:24:36 am"
Message-ID: <201206291646.q5TGkQ628978634@floodgap.com>

> On plugging into power:
> 	I do here relays click inside.
> 
> On pushbutton start:
> 	The power indication goes out immediately when letting go of the button.

I'd still try the battery suggestion. However, my experience is that this
indicates the processor module is bad. Sorry. :(

Do you know specifically which G5 model?

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Po-Ching Lives! ------------------------------------------------------------


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 11:57:43 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:57:43 -0400
Subject: Tools was Re: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <201206290128.VAA09313@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1SkKi2-000J4fC@p850ug1>
 <201206290128.VAA09313@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4FBED130-56A3-47FF-90D4-BF68F12BA739@gmail.com>

On Jun 28, 2012, at 9:28 PM, Mouse wrote:

>> It's possible to measure ESR with a sine wave signal generator and a
>> ;cope [...].  It gets boring fast, which is why there are ESR meters.
> 
> I would tend to think - perhaps na?vely - that ESR is based on
> considering a capacitor as an ideal capacitor in series with an ideal
> resistor, in which case an ordinary ohmmeter could be used to measure
> ESR, provided the current it runs through the "resistance" under test
> is low enough that the cap does not charge significantly during the
> measurement.
> 
> Do I misunderstand?  Is there more to ESR meters than just working
> around the "cap charging while measuring" issue?

You're correct in your understanding of ESR; it's basically a measure
of how much the cap deviates from an ideal cap.  Most ESR meters are
designed to measure with short pulses so they don't charge the cap
overly much (which is why it's hard to do with a multimeter), and
they're usually designed to work in-circuit.

Wikipedia's page on ESR meters is a decent writeup.


- Dave





From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Jun 29 06:59:29 2012
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 04:59:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/?
 adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206291215200.6326@duo>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206290130020.9074@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206291215200.6326@duo>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206290458580.19083@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 29 Jun 2012, Steven Hirsch wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> By the time Newark tacks on all their fees, that "inexpensive" Raspberry 
>>> Pi is no longer inexpensive by any definition. Until the Raspberry Pi is 
>>> available via another distributor, I will not buy one.
>>> 
>> I got mine from RS/Allied.  Total cost with shipping was about $40.
>
> I'd love to know how you all are getting ahold of them.  Just checked Newark 
> and RS/Allied:
>
> Newark:  Accepting orders > July 5
>
> Allied:  "Not available" (no further information)

I got my "ok to order" email confirmation in May and it was shipped June 
16th via DHL from the UK.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a
server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck.
[Cipher in a.s.r]


From md.benson at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 12:01:04 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 18:01:04 +0100
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <201206291632.q5TGWJFU8978560@floodgap.com>
References: <201206291632.q5TGWJFU8978560@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <9E8E0629-AF68-4683-BB6C-79416639BA43@gmail.com>


On 29 Jun 2012, at 17:32, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

>>> I have, however, heard a lot of sorry tales of PowerMac G5s suffering
>>> all manner of weird problems with PSUs, leaking liquid coolers and
>>> more. It's worth thoroughly checking the whole system over before
>>> proceeding.
>> 
>> My Rev.0 Dual 2Ghz PowerMac G5 had more problems than even my DEC PWS 433au.
> 
> Those generation of G5s weren't too flash, and the liquid cooled ones were
> worse.
> 
> Apple worked out most of these bugs by the time the quad G5 came out, which
> is the one I own and has been rendering sterling service for close to seven
> years. But like every G5, it's hot and power hungry.
> 
> G5 systems have a notorious reputation and I can't say it's undeserved.

I'll second that,. I've heard higher-than-anecdotal levels of complaints about the CPU modules (especially the liquid cooled ones) over the years, as well as a few other things dying.

I postulate that the thermal loads on the components inside that alloy oven, especially on dual-CPU models, are high enough that the effect is derogatory to the longevity of some of the models lifespan.

-- 

Mark Benson

http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK

Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.




From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 12:01:12 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 18:01:12 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4173246096347427903@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <802036D95B89493EA46D7444033130B5@G4UGMT41>

In the uk you register an interest and get a number. If in the US try
registering here:-

http://www.alliedelec.com/RaspberryPi/

for updates

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Benson
> Sent: 29 June 2012 17:22
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to 
> IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
> 
> 
> They likely pre-ordered or got lucky. RS and Farnell are 
> currently still filling back-orders as far as I know.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Benson
> 
> http://markbenson.org/blog
> http://twitter.com/MDBenson
> 
> On 29 Jun 2012, at 17:20, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 29 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 29 Jun 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
> >>
> >>> By the time Newark tacks on all their fees, that "inexpensive" 
> >>> Raspberry Pi is no longer inexpensive by any definition. 
> Until the Raspberry Pi is available via another distributor, 
> I will not buy one.
> >> I got mine from RS/Allied.  Total cost with shipping was about $40.
> >
> > I'd love to know how you all are getting ahold of them.  
> Just checked 
> > Newark and RS/Allied:
> >
> > Newark:  Accepting orders > July 5
> >
> > Allied:  "Not available" (no further information)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> 



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 12:20:26 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 13:20:26 -0400
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206291215200.6326@duo>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1206290130020.9074@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206291215200.6326@duo>
Message-ID: <3534A07D-B10A-432C-90E6-591CEA750118@gmail.com>

On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:16 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote:

> On Fri, 29 Jun 2012, Gene Buckle wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 29 Jun 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
>> 
>>> By the time Newark tacks on all their fees, that "inexpensive" Raspberry Pi is no longer inexpensive by any definition. Until the Raspberry Pi is available via another distributor, I will not buy one.
>> I got mine from RS/Allied.  Total cost with shipping was about $40.
> 
> I'd love to know how you all are getting ahold of them.  Just checked Newark and RS/Allied:
> 
> Newark:  Accepting orders > July 5
> 
> Allied:  "Not available" (no further information)

I put myself on a waiting list with RS the day the announcement came out.
I was unaware at that time that there was a US distributor, but it sounds
like I might have made the right choice by going with RS, pricewise.  I
pretty much forgot about the whole thing until I got an email saying my
number was up, so I plonked my $40 or so down (not bad for international
shipping on a $35 board!).

I wasn't particularly impatient to get it, since I have a lot of irons in
the fire (hell, I haven't had time to do more than make sure it boots,
which it did).  If I were really antsy about it, I guess I might be more
offended.


- Dave




From md.benson at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 12:38:01 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 18:38:01 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
 was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
Message-ID: <87F725A5-8FA9-4595-93EB-00882747A5B8@gmail.com>


On 29 Jun 2012, at 07:38, Tothwolf wrote:

> I work with a lot of embedded boards these days. Design wise, I rather like the Raspberry Pi.

It is a nice piece of kit, especially at the price point. For embedded or semi-embedded work it's really nice, my only gripes are the SD IO speed is terrible, and the 5V power input is via a USB Micro connector not a 2-pole barrel connector which would have been more 'standard'.

> My single gripe with the project is their choice of Farnell/Newark as their retail distributor. Newark as they are better known in the US has an enormous markup on parts and materials and I've had so many bad experiences with them (including overnight shipping not shipping out for 3-4 days on /multiple/ occasions) that I will simply not deal with Farnell/Newark unless there is absolutely no way I can avoid doing so.

http://www.alliedelec.com/RaspberryPi/

Give Allied Electronics a shot, they are RS's US distributor.

The reason they are distributing via Allied and Newark is that Farnell and RS are the *UK's* biggest distributors and offered them a good deal to sort out manufacturing and selling the boards with their Chinese contacts. RS and Farnell in the UK are pretty reasonable to deal with although both have a habit of stinging you on carriage if you aren't paying 100% attention to what you are buying (notably if it's 'cheap').

> With my latest experience with Newark last year, they charged me $18 for a small heat sink plus $20 for UPS ground shipping (that they -finally- shipped out about 5 days later) PLUS local sales tax for an out of state purchase. All total, about $58.00 USD for a small aluminum heat sink that was less than 1LB shipped. That part was for a rush repair job, and I ate the cost, but I vowed to never deal with Newark again.

Ouch.

> By the time Newark tacks on all their fees, that "inexpensive" Raspberry Pi is no longer inexpensive by any definition. Until the Raspberry Pi is available via another distributor, I will not buy one.

Allied may be better, I can't vouch for them for US customers but RS UK have thus far been speedy and pretty fair with shipping and pricing on the RPi.

-- 

Mark Benson

http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK

Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.




From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun 29 12:53:54 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 10:53:54 -0700
Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <p06240813cc136c242e16@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>, <p06240813cc136c242e16@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>


My apologies for tagging along, but there seems to be a few people 
who know about these PPC beasts.

I've got an old Performa 6100/60 (the first Power Mac if I read my 
Apple history right0.  It boots and seems to run just fine, but 
there's no sound--nothing, not even the power-on chimes.  Control 
panel says that nothing's muted and the volume is up full.

The PRAM battery is new; I was able to check that the speaker and 
audio amplifier work by injecting a small signal into its input.  
Beyond that, it seems to be Apple proprietary VLSI or custom chips 
from other manufacturers.

Does anyone have a clue?  I'd refer to my 6100 schematics and chip 
datasheets, but of course, there are none. Apple's "if it doesn'''t 
work, buy a new one" philosophy, I guess.

--Chuck





From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Jun 29 13:06:15 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:06:15 -0700
Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>,
 <p06240813cc136c242e16@[192.168.1.199]>
 <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org>

On 6/29/12 10:53 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> Does anyone have a clue?

Electrolytics look OK?




From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun 29 13:19:46 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:19:46 -0700
Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com>

On 29 Jun 2012 at 11:06, Al Kossow wrote:

> On 6/29/12 10:53 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone have a clue?
> 
> Electrolytics look OK?

No shorts or opens as far as I can tell  (not easy visually, as these 
are the SMT "cans").   PSU checks out, video looks fine.

--Chuck




From mc68010 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 13:44:56 2012
From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 11:44:56 -0700
Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay
In-Reply-To: <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com>

Too bad the important bits are missing but, I know how some of you out 
there love collecting the LISP related stuff.  Maybe you could contact 
the seller and see if they can find them.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Macintosh-II-M5000-Vintage-Mac-Desktop-Computer-System-For-Parts-No-Power-/110907296538

Here's a quick description 
http://www.jester.org/Projects/microExplorer/microexplorer.html


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Fri Jun 29 14:04:11 2012
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 15:04:11 -0400
Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com>
 <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "mc68010" <mc68010 at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 2:44 PM
Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay


> Too bad the important bits are missing but, I know how some of you out 
> there love collecting the LISP related stuff.  Maybe you could contact the 
> seller and see if they can find them.
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Macintosh-II-M5000-Vintage-Mac-Desktop-Computer-System-For-Parts-No-Power-/110907296538
>
> Here's a quick description 
> http://www.jester.org/Projects/microExplorer/microexplorer.html

Totally gutted, if you want to save money ask the seller to ship just the TI 
sticker. ;)




From md.benson at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 14:06:02 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 20:06:02 +0100
Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <46DF6B8B-28AB-4867-B457-9B26C61E729C@gmail.com>


On 29 Jun 2012, at 19:19, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 29 Jun 2012 at 11:06, Al Kossow wrote:
> 
>> On 6/29/12 10:53 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> 
>>> Does anyone have a clue?
>> 
>> Electrolytics look OK?
> 
> No shorts or opens as far as I can tell  (not easy visually, as these 
> are the SMT "cans").   PSU checks out, video looks fine.

Do you get sound from the external speaker port on the back?

-- 

Mark Benson

http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK

Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.



From mc68010 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 14:16:37 2012
From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:16:37 -0700
Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay
In-Reply-To: <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com>
 <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com>
 <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7>
Message-ID: <4FEDFF15.6080007@gmail.com>

On 6/29/2012 12:04 PM, TeoZ wrote:
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Macintosh-II-M5000-Vintage-Mac-Desktop-Computer-System-For-Parts-No-Power-/110907296538 
>>
>>
>> Here's a quick description 
>> http://www.jester.org/Projects/microExplorer/microexplorer.html
>
>
> Totally gutted, if you want to save money ask the seller to ship just 
> the TI sticker. ;)
>
>

Well Mac II aren't exactly common anymore. Of course, that one doesn't 
even work and I can guess it is probably because of leaking caps all 
over the motherboard.

Used to be all the old Mac stuff I ran into worked fine when found. Now 
it never does. Those caps were basically a ticking time bomb and time is 
now up. I don't have a single old Mac that doesn't need multiple caps 
replaced now. I am terrible at surface mount stuff too. Drink way too 
much coffee to deal with things like that.



From colineby at isallthat.com  Fri Jun 29 14:24:29 2012
From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 20:24:29 +0100
Subject: HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
In-Reply-To: <m1SjyK8-000J4fC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SjyK8-000J4fC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <a46a89a9-68e1-4fdc-8534-fd3e61115239@email.android.com>

I'm working cataloguing The National Museum of Computing's (UK) HP collection. There's a lot of material donated from a training centre covering repair and maintenance. If the material online from the HP Museum (Australia) and Bitsavers isn't enough to get you going, I can put this on our watch list. Would that help? 
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:

> 
> Hi all --
> 
> Picked up a (mostly) complete HP 9885M (8" floppy drive) set up for my 

I know it. I also know how mcuh is missign form the documentation. 

The interface to the host is a 16 bit databus and some control lines. 
I've eyt to finnd any description of the command set, etc. You can deduce 
some of if from the HP900/200 Pascal technical docs (on bitsavers), but...

> HP 9825 computer. I have the 9885M drive itself, a 98032A interface, 
> and the "Flexible Disk Drive" ROM pak for the 9825. I am unfortunately 
> missing the "9825A Disk System Cartridge" tape (hp p/n 09885-90035). 

Than you have problems. The ROM is essenmtially a bootstrap. You need the 
system tape to format new disks and write the OS onto them. There was a 
later disk ROM that waslarger (it's one of the few bank-switched ROMs for 
the 9825), but belive-it-or-not disks fromated with that are not 
compatible with the older one AFAIK. 


> Any ideas if this has been archived anywhere? I haven't found it in my 

Not that I know of. There was, IIRC< no way to copy binary programs on 
the 9825 (well, you could with a 9877 external tepe memory unit, but they 
are ridiculously rare, and the itnerfaces/software for them even rarer). 
So there was no real way to archive this system cartridge :-(

> searches. (Not that I currently have any means to get it onto my 
> 9825...) Looks like this is actually required in order to format disks. 
> Sigh...
> 
> Unfortunately, the drive appears to be failing the built-in diagnostic; 
> there's a single LED that goes on when the test starts and it's supposed 
> to go out within a minute if the diagnostic's passed. The LED on mine 
> just stays on permanently. Unfortunately that's the -only- diagnostic 
> indicator on the unit. I've read through the service manual and unless 
> I'm missing something it doesn't really describe how to go about 
> narrowing down the problem. There's a flowchart that basically says "if 
> the light doesn't go out, it's a problem with the controller in the 
> drive unit" which seems fairly obvious...

I asusme you've looked at the the schemaitcs and pnaiced. There are a few 
boards of stanadrd logic, things like the disk data shift registers, data 
separateor, etc. And then there's that board with the HP custom 
'nanocontroller' and firmware ROms on it. AFAIK HP never docuemtned this 
nanocontroller, the instruciton set is not known (I would love to be 
wrogn about this) so tryign to disassabmble the firmware is a 
non-starter.... And without knowimg what that firmware is doing you are 
essentailly working blind.

-tony




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Jun 29 15:03:33 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 16:03:33 -0400
Subject: "standard" coaxial power connectors, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America
In-Reply-To: <87F725A5-8FA9-4595-93EB-00882747A5B8@gmail.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <87F725A5-8FA9-4595-93EB-00882747A5B8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEE0A15.8030203@neurotica.com>

On 06/29/2012 01:38 PM, Mark Benson wrote:
>> I work with a lot of embedded boards these days. Design wise, I
>> rather like the Raspberry Pi.
> 
> It is a nice piece of kit, especially at the price point. For
> embedded or semi-embedded work it's really nice, my only gripes are
> the SD IO speed is terrible, and the 5V power input is via a USB
> Micro connector not a 2-pole barrel connector which would have been
> more 'standard'.

  I'm sorry, but this is flawed reasoning.  MicroUSB *IS* a standardized
connector, available everywhere, with the same pinout and identical
connectors.  Those coaxial power connectors...Hey, I like them too,
but...There are several outer diameters, and several inner diameters,
and every combination is made, sold, and...designed into products.
There is no standard coaxial power connector.

  Then, what's the polarity?  Center positive or center negative?  And
what voltage?  Current rating?  Oh, is it even DC?  If so, regulated or not?

  One may say, "Bull, I have these two boards here, and they use the
same one!"  ...Yes, I have at least four that use the same one.  And
another dozen or two that use completely different ones.  Coincidences
happen.  There is no standard.  MicroUSB really was the correct design
choice here.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Jun 29 15:39:06 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 16:39:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <20120629104415.GA7608@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
References: <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <m1SkKqX-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120629104415.GA7608@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
Message-ID: <201206292039.QAA18797@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Let's add up the total extra costs that most people will have:

> keyboard:       0
> mouse:          0
> SD card:        0
> [have you spotted the theme yet?]
> [...]

Oh, nonsense.  Doubly nonsense.

First, a keyboard - to pick the first item on your list - is no less a
cost just because you've already got the keyboard rather than needing
to go buy a new one.  (It makes it harder to put a monetary amount on
the cost, but it's still a resource you have to use, even if the
monetary part of it has already been paid.)  Even then, taking a spare
out of the spares pile and putting it into live use is still paying a
cost.

Second, what is your basis for asserting that "most people" will have
spares of all those things just sitting around looking for uses?
Unless you've actually done studies of large numbers of Pi buyers -
numbers large enough to have statistical validity - to find out what
fraction of them have keyboards, mice, SD cards, etc, lying unused, I
can't see this as any more your spouting your opinions, guesses,
preferences, whatever, than the people you castigate for doing that.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Fri Jun 29 17:51:27 2012
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 18:51:27 -0400
Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com>
 <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com>
 <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7>
 <4FEDFF15.6080007@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011CE82BE7F6467FB403E7F8409AF027@hd2600xt6a04f7>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "mc68010" <mc68010 at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay


> On 6/29/2012 12:04 PM, TeoZ wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Macintosh-II-M5000-Vintage-Mac-Desktop-Computer-System-For-Parts-No-Power-/110907296538
>>>
>>> Here's a quick description 
>>> http://www.jester.org/Projects/microExplorer/microexplorer.html
>>
>>
>> Totally gutted, if you want to save money ask the seller to ship just the 
>> TI sticker. ;)
>>
>>
>
> Well Mac II aren't exactly common anymore. Of course, that one doesn't 
> even work and I can guess it is probably because of leaking caps all over 
> the motherboard.
>
> Used to be all the old Mac stuff I ran into worked fine when found. Now it 
> never does. Those caps were basically a ticking time bomb and time is now 
> up. I don't have a single old Mac that doesn't need multiple caps replaced 
> now. I am terrible at surface mount stuff too. Drink way too much coffee 
> to deal with things like that.
>

No Mac II's are not that common, quite a few were converted to IIfx machines 
with a motherboard swap. Leaking capacitors might be an issue (I had to redo 
all 3 of my IIx boards) but I would bet the problem is because the PRAM 
batteries are dead. Even if the boards need recapped it is not that hard to 
do (compared to a Classic II where everything is crammed close together).

The problem with that auction is there are no 800K floppy drives (which are 
hard to get these days), all the cards are gone (you need to have a video 
card on that model), and you are missing the HD. I would guess somebody 
wanted the guts and software but didn't want to pay to ship the whole unit.




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 29 17:06:59 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 23:06:59 +0100 (BST)
Subject: HP 9885M troubleshooting tips
In-Reply-To: <002101cd5576$81549b80$83fdd280$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Jun
 28, 12 11:39:26 pm
Message-ID: <m1SkjLF-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> I have two of them, both are stuck at the moment. 
> But if any one of you will take a chance getting it loose and make a backup,
> let me know.

I do ahve an HP9877 external tape memory unit, the single-drive version. 
What I don't have is the 9825 interface or software for it. But I know 
what the interface connector on the unit is, and that it's basically the 
same as a 9825 tape controlelr goard with a little extra interface logic 
(a very little extra logic). 

One fo the many 'to do' projectys is to link that up to something more 
modern (not : I didn not say something modern :-))  and see if I can make 
images of 9825 tapes and dump them back again. If so, I will then 
consider having a go with one or your disk system tapes. But that's a 
long way in the future.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 29 17:39:21 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 23:39:21 +0100 (BST)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <023801cd5581$6a64b760$3f2e2620$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt"
 at Jun 28, 12 11:57:36 pm
Message-ID: <m1SkjqY-000J4eC@p850ug1>

> What I think you are suggesting is to make up a replacement ribbon cable
> with the more usual edge connectors. That is a great idea, but if I am not

Basiclaly, yes. Use the 2-row header sockets (think of the conenctor that 
fits a 3.5" floppy drive) on the 'drive' end of the cables. 

As I said in my reply ot Chuck, there are a few machines where this is 
harder that normal, but it's a very few machines. If this ever ends up on 
a PCB , it might be worth having normal edge fingers so the unit is a 
drop-in repalcement for the drive, but get it working first :-)

> mistaken, tooling up to create your own custom ribbon cables can be
> expensive, or it might have been that you couldn't easily buy smallish

You do not neec the expensive press tools. I have never used htem. What 
you need is a small bench vice. You can crimp the edge conenctors, IDC 
sockets, D connectors, Microribbon connecotrs, etc with no extra tooling 
if you are careful. 

The only ones you will have problems with the the 'transistion 
connectors' which are designed ot crimp onto a cable and then be soldered 
ot a PCB, basically a way to 'peramnaently' fix a cable to a PCB. There 
are 2 types. Oen ahs 2 straight rows of pins on a 0.1" matrix. That oen 
is easy. Put it in a solderless plugblock breadboard, then crimp the lot 
in the idce. The breadboard acts as a die to prevent the pins gettign 
squished.

The other type, thankfully rare, has a stagered arangement of pins. If 
you insist on using those, you backally have to drill a metal block to 
act as a die. But you are not likely to use those in this project.


> quantities of ribbon cable. I can't remember for sure now. Still, it
> definitely a much better idea than my original one!

I think Farnell seel ribobn cable in farily short lengths (1m or so). 
It's not cheap, but it's a lot less to lay out than if you had to buy the 
complete reel.

Also rememebr you can cut ribbon cable down (nick it between wires, then 
strip it apart. It's wasteful to always have to do that, but if you have 
some 40 way cable, it;'s not too wasteful to make 34 way from it (and 
the remaining 6 way bit gets used for power, panel switch/indicator, etc 
wiring :-)) 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 29 17:15:44 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 23:15:44 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGiHq+aMt7qKVmbhjEH7_gBkxS00G_Em-oWTY_f2b14WQ@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Liam Proven" at Jun 28, 12 11:46:22 pm
Message-ID: <m1SkjTh-000J4WC@p850ug1>

> Tony *might* approve if the published documentation included detailed
> instructions on how to mine your own copper ore, smelt it, build a
> silicon refinery, fabricate your own CPU, spin glass fibre and
> synthesize resin and then manufacture your own circuit board.
> 
> But I do emphasize the "might" here...

Actually, I'd be very likely to approve of it if : 

It came complete, that is to say I could just plug it in and go without 
having to pay to download and print manuals, download the OS, etc

The docuemtnation let me figure out how to use the thing. 

Given that, I might actualyl buy one.

A couple of serious questions : 

1) AS has been confiremd the data sheet on the main 'chip' doesn't 
include docuemtnation on certain parts of it (video-related?). Are those 
parts simply not used by the standard linux for the Rpi, or are the 
drives supplied as binary-only, or what?

2) I understnad the's some kind of GPIO/user port. How many lines, are 
they individually selectable for direction? Can this be easilly used from 
C (I assuem there's a C vompiler included with the OS).

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 29 17:45:14 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 23:45:14 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <4FEC9841.11725.1F37C87@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 28, 12 05:45:37 pm
Message-ID: <m1SkjwG-000J4fC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 29 Jun 2012 at 1:08, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> 
> > Probably not, actually.  My supplied-in-the-UK ASR33 is 50Hz and has a
> > 110V motor, and has a big transformer in the base to allow it to be
> > used on 240V AC mains.  So have other UK models I've looked at.
> 
> Yup, Tony's made it clear that you folks in fifty-hurts land have a 
> transformer in the base.  Strange, but true.

To be fair, I said that all the machines I've seen/worked on have such a 
transformer, and Pete Turnbull said the same thing about the machiens 
he's seen. That makes it pretty likely that the OP's machine has a 110V 
motor, but it's still not _certain_. There can always be a counterexample.

My guess is that hte same motots were used in the States and in Europe, 
with differnet gearign to cope wit hthe differnt speed.. I'll check the 
partsbook sometime.
 
> So, if the OP doesn't have one, he needs to find one.

A 110V step-down transformer (preferably isolating) is very useful to 
have o nthe bench over here for testing/running US stuff.

If you don't mind having the output centre-tapped to ground (and I can't 
see why an ASR33 would object!) then the power tool transformer I mention 
from time to time is ideal.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 29 17:19:19 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 23:19:19 +0100 (BST)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <4FEC7C6F.31785.186CF7C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 28, 12 03:46:55 pm
Message-ID: <m1SkjXA-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> It wasn't my intention to use edge connectors on the project, but 
> rather double-row headers.  My reasoning was that header-equipped 

AS would I,certainyl for the prototype/experimatal version. Those headers 
are easy to get in both solder and wire-wrap versions and can be trically 
used on prototyping board.

My only reservation is that a few -- a very few -- amchines use custom 
cabels that aren't actually ribbon cable and aren't straight-throuh. The 
obvious one being the Rainbow, I think. With those you can't modify the 
existing calbe to have header sockets on ti, and making up a repalcemetn 
cable is a little work (but a lot less tahn making the druive emulator). 
I guess once it's working _then_ you attend to such matters ;-)

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 29 17:51:51 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 23:51:51 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Tools was Re: Diagnosing and Reparing Commodore 64s
In-Reply-To: <201206290128.VAA09313@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Jun 28, 12 09:28:21 pm
Message-ID: <m1Skk2e-000J4gC@p850ug1>

> I would tend to think - perhaps na=EFvely - that ESR is based on
> considering a capacitor as an ideal capacitor in series with an ideal
> resistor, in which case an ordinary ohmmeter could be used to measure

THat's basically it.

> ESR, provided the current it runs through the "resistance" under test
> is low enough that the cap does not charge significantly during the
> measurement.

And that's the problem. The ESR will quite low (you hope a few ohms at 
most). 

Nost digital ohmmeters work by applying a constant current to the 
device-under-test and measurign the votlage drop across it. Now, to 
measure small resistnaces you use a relatively high current, and that 
will charge the capacitor. Surely you've tried conencitng a capaciotor 
across the probes of a digital ohmmeter and watched the display increasing 
at a constant rate?

You might be able to deduce soemthign fro mthe first reading, but I think 
that even over the intrgration time of the DMM chip the capacitor under 
teest wil lcahrge significantly.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 29 17:56:40 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 23:56:40 +0100 (BST)
Subject: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKx==Ne3qLLTmqsoG1s8HWYVvVYR8LMpi3wEWj4zQAHHQ@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Glen Slick" at Jun 28, 12 04:50:12 pm
Message-ID: <m1Skk7J-000J4hC@p850ug1>

> My first attempts at building 50-conductor cables with header
> connectors on one end and card edge connectors on the other to
> interface between a Pertec tape drive and controller resulted in a few
> broken connectors before I gave up and bought a proper press.

The only time I've (recently) had connectors break when crimping them in 
the vice was when I accidentally bought cheap, cr*ppy connectors. I 
bougth some Farnell own-brand 50 way Microribbon plbus and had no end of 
trouble. When I foudn they also solde 3M oens (admittedly at 6 times the 
price [1]), I used those and had no further problems

[1] The cheap oens were linekd from the 3M conencotr page, but not the 
reverse...

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 29 18:00:32 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 00:00:32 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Lots of vintage electronic and computer stuff
In-Reply-To: <CC12763C.133E9%iank@vulcan.com> from "Ian King" at Jun 29,
 12 04:04:24 am
Message-ID: <m1SkkB4-000J4iC@p850ug1>

> 
> Sometimes I think we should segregate this list by continent to diminish
> the gnashing of teeth :-) but on the other hand some of us will sometimes
> pay the way for EU (AU, etc.) kit, and I'd hate to miss out on it!  :-)

I did spor the smiley... but I do think this is a bad idea.

Techncial issues are mcuh the same al round the world. If soembody in the 
States is repairign a pERQ, or an HP9830 or soemthing else I've seriously 
worked on, I can probably help for all I have by machines running off 
240V mains...

While it might not be sensible to ship large minicomputers between 
continents, it's certainly possible to ship PCBs at not to high a cost. 
I've done it many times. I haec had the odd complete (and heavy) device 
sent to me - -shipping was expensive (as expensive and the unit), but I'd 
ener have got one otherwise.

-tony 


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 29 18:03:24 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 00:03:24 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <4FECCCDC.5146.2C0FADA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Jun 28, 12 09:30:04 pm
Message-ID: <m1SkkDp-000J4jC@p850ug1>

> Hasn't a step-down transformer that is made for use with power tools 
> in the UK been mentioned before?  That would likely fit the need to a 

it would.

> "T".  However, I don't know how easy it is to find NEMA receptacles 
> in the UK, should the owner wish to keep the original line cord 
> intact.

2 pin sockets are farily easy to find, 3 pin ones a bit harde. I think 
either RS componetns or Farnell sell some types, but at very high prices. 
Surely, though, you can fidn these on Ebay or at a US components uspplier 
who will ship them. IOne socet it not large or heavy.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Jun 29 18:12:21 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 00:12:21 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSU.4.63.1206290956490.18209@azu.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> from
 "krause@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de" at Jun 29, 12 11:17:35 am
Message-ID: <m1SkkMU-000J4kC@p850ug1>

Teletype motors]

>   183991  (no data given)
>   from the picture, this motor seems to have a centrifugal governor.
>   So it is eventually adjustable for 50/60 Hz.

It might even be a DC motor. I am pretty sure that Creed teleprinters, 
etc were avaialve eith DC motors (often 24V), the military used them 'in 
the field'. 

The governor for the DC motor is odd. The motor is shunt-wound and the 
governor _increases_ the field current when it's up to speed. That wil 
slow down such a motor (yes, I know why, but it still seems odd the 
first time you come across it).

-tony



From robert at irrelevant.com  Fri Jun 29 19:08:43 2012
From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 01:08:43 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <201206292039.QAA18797@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <m1SkKqX-000J4gC@p850ug1> <20120629104415.GA7608@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206292039.QAA18797@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <CAApARtte-W_6-KBVCdRj_ndYDda3YYjnnWMtfStE=0yXJXTrXg@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 June 2012 21:39, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
>
> Second, what is your basis for asserting that "most people" will have
> spares of all those things just sitting around looking for uses?
> Unless you've actually done studies of large numbers of Pi buyers -
> numbers large enough to have statistical validity - to find out what
> fraction of them have keyboards, mice, SD cards, etc, lying unused, I
> can't see this as any more your spouting your opinions, guesses,
> preferences, whatever, than the people you castigate for doing that.


FWIW, I'm hardly a normal user, and have plenty of spare PC bits lying
about, but I have precisely one USB keyboard in the house, which
usually hangs out near the lad's PS3.

Therefore today I bought a new USB keyboard, and an optical mouse for
good measure.  Cost me a total of ?7.50 (<?10) from the local
supermarket. I'm powering the Pi from the USB media port on the TV
that it is using as a display! I can't remember where the micro-usb
cable came from, but the HDMI cable was a poundshop jobbie some time
back. None of it is going to break the bank and I think that allowing
use of such commodity items is a Good Thing - even if people don't
have spares, they are cheap enough that the TCO is still not too
expensive.  Heck, I spent more on a Leapfrog "my first computer",
which definitely fits into the "toy" category.

Rob



From jon at jonworld.com  Fri Jun 29 20:20:47 2012
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 21:20:47 -0400
Subject: Data General Power Supply?
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+2u=q6O+eRsGtnmLC-VG2968T8zmPVTv932of=EbAtRDw@mail.gmail.com>

Folks,

I have happened upon a fairly nice-sized Data General Power Supply
board. It's about 8" square with 2 x 120-pin plug connector the length
of the board. It says "650W AC autoranging power supply, (C) 1996 Data
General 107003838_02/04" and has a very tiny printed label with a part
number and serial number. The part number I've made out as 665643739,
although the printing is so tiny it could be?885643739. My wife says
005043739. Google turns up nothing.

I actually have two. These are essentially NOS parts and seem unused/clean.

Here's a photo:?http://i.imgur.com/ZyYYq.jpg

Is there any interest in these? What are they?

--
-Jon
Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN.



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Jun 29 20:38:44 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 18:38:44 -0700
Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <46DF6B8B-28AB-4867-B457-9B26C61E729C@gmail.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <46DF6B8B-28AB-4867-B457-9B26C61E729C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEDF634.6923.F7A18@cclist.sydex.com>

On 29 Jun 2012 at 20:06, Mark Benson wrote:


> Do you get sound from the external speaker port on the back?

No, that's dead silent as well.

--Chuck



From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 20:44:06 2012
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 02:44:06 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <m1SkjTh-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <CAMTenCGiHq+aMt7qKVmbhjEH7_gBkxS00G_Em-oWTY_f2b14WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <m1SkjTh-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEpXo5ZaZRy8_q+h_b491vvT5-0yGOLoF5933G6yQhfVA@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 June 2012 23:15, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Tony *might* approve if the published documentation included detailed
>> instructions on how to mine your own copper ore, smelt it, build a
>> silicon refinery, fabricate your own CPU, spin glass fibre and
>> synthesize resin and then manufacture your own circuit board.
>>
>> But I do emphasize the "might" here...
>
> Actually, I'd be very likely to approve of it if :
>
> It came complete, that is to say I could just plug it in and go without
> having to pay to download and print manuals, download the OS, etc

Then it would cost significantly more than ?30.

But if that is what you wanted, then there are such devices out there:
various small Android-powered all-in-one ARM machines for under ?100.

> The docuemtnation let me figure out how to use the thing.

It's a device to teach kids programming. The bulk of the information
is on the web. You'd need a Web-capable computer and a broadband
connection.

> Given that, I might actualyl buy one.

It is really not a device for you, given your predilection for
vintage, technically-documented hardware. It's a closed-spec
undocumented system-on-a-chip with some supporting hardware, which
assumes that the owner has a basic set of 21st century equipment to
hand: USB hub, USB keyboard, USB mouse, USB power supply, SD media and
a host PC that can read/write SD media, an HDMI-capable
high-definition flatscreen TV and so on. None of which you own and
from what you have told me before none of which you want to own.


> A couple of serious questions :
>
> 1) AS has been confiremd the data sheet on the main 'chip' doesn't
> include docuemtnation on certain parts of it (video-related?). Are those
> parts simply not used by the standard linux for the Rpi, or are the
> drives supplied as binary-only, or what?

Binary drivers for Linux only, no other OS. GPU is proprietary,
undocumented and protected Broadcom IP; they will not disclose
details. Even the Linux driver only exposes certain, limited APIs and
functions that the R? Foundation have paid for, such as H.264 video
decode. There are lots of other functions in the GPU that Linux cannot
access and never will unless someone pays quite a lot of license fees
to Broadcom.

The device /has/ no discrete CPU; the processor is a small, low-spec,
old-fashioned ARM core of a type long superseded and no longer
supported by most current Linux distributions, which has been masked
onto some spare gates on one corner of the GPU die.

The machine boots because the GPU reads a FAT filesystem on the SD
card, looks for files of certain names, loads them into RAM and then
boots the ARM core and starts it executing.

It's not a CPU with an attached GPU as most modern computers; it's a
GPU with an afterthought of a CPU bolted onto the side.

> 2) I understnad the's some kind of GPIO/user port. How many lines, are
> they individually selectable for direction? Can this be easilly used from
> C (I assuem there's a C vompiler included with the OS).

Don't know.

Wikipedia says:

Low-level peripherals:	8 ? GPIO, UART, I?C bus, SPI bus with two chip
selects, +3.3 V, +5 V, ground

... If that means anything to you; it doesn't to me mostly.

It's accessible from Linux and therefore from any Linux programming
language, in principle. Distros available include a very elderly
version of Ubuntu, a more current Debian that can't use the FPU, a
work-in-progress Debian remix compiled for the
elderly-ARM-core-plus-hardware-floating-point called Raspbian (which
will be the one of choice once it's finished), and a not-all-there
Fedora.

It also runs Acorn RISC OS, in the Risc OS Open Ltd variant - but the
port is very new and experimental and unstable.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 20:45:02 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 21:45:02 -0400
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <m1SkjTh-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SkjTh-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <B8772795-ECF1-4741-AECD-39CC8DAD381A@gmail.com>

On Jun 29, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Tony Duell wrote:

> A couple of serious questions : 
> 
> 1) AS has been confiremd the data sheet on the main 'chip' doesn't 
> include docuemtnation on certain parts of it (video-related?). Are those 
> parts simply not used by the standard linux for the Rpi, or are the 
> drives supplied as binary-only, or what?

They're definitely used by the Linux distro involved.  I don't recall
if the driver is source or binary, but the video processing is, like
most modern GPUs, a separate processor with its own firmware.  The
specs are certainly closed (and Broadcom will probably give the Swift
Sword of Death to anyone caught distributing them), but certainly at
least enough of the kernel code to establish a memory-mapped
framebuffer is available (or the console wouldn't display).

The proprietary stuff is the access to the 3D acceleration and the
video decoding stuff, which is at least supplied via libraries with
public APIs.  Not perfect, but not totally unusable.  Only runs
under Linux, though, so if you were trying to do something on bare
metal, you'd be out of luck.

> 2) I understnad the's some kind of GPIO/user port. How many lines, are 
> they individually selectable for direction? Can this be easilly used from 
> C (I assuem there's a C vompiler included with the OS).

There is a 26-pin GPIO port available of which 17 pins can be used
for I/O (the rest are power, ground or NC).  The GPIO pins are the
standard bidirectional, tristatable things you would expect.  Some
of the in functions are muxed with SPI, UART, I2C and I2S so that
you can use more advanced devices without bit-banging.  Almost all
of these are accessible through standard Linux APIs, though the
support is not 100% there in all of the distributions currently
extant for the device (they're catching up fast, though).

This page gives a good overview:

http://elinux.org/Rpi_Low-level_peripherals

There's no buffering, and everything is 3.3v, so for a lot of real
world applications you'd need to at least give it some buffers to
keep the ESD demons away.  For a lot, though, you can get away
with taking chances (especially for a $25/$35 board).

Pretty much all of the Linux distros offered as canned SD images
have a standard GCC toolchain installed, and those that don't have
it installed as stock probably make it fairly easy to get it on
there.  The point, after all, is to get kids programming. :-)



- Dave



From evan at snarc.net  Fri Jun 29 21:32:44 2012
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 22:32:44 -0400
Subject: Four IBM Series/1 available near L.A.
Message-ID: <4FEE654C.3050600@snarc.net>

See subject line.

No affiliation with the seller. Contact: Paul -- pschlichting at earthlink.net


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Fri Jun 29 23:47:24 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 01:47:24 -0300
Subject: Adapting linux for other ARM devices. Was:Raspberry Pi and America,
References: <CAMTenCGiHq+aMt7qKVmbhjEH7_gBkxS00G_Em-oWTY_f2b14WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <m1SkjTh-000J4WC@p850ug1>
 <CAMTenCEpXo5ZaZRy8_q+h_b491vvT5-0yGOLoF5933G6yQhfVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <08b401cd567b$8e3cd550$6600a8c0@tababook>


    An interesting question that may fit on this list

    There are lots of old ARM devices around. One that is very common in 
Brazil is the "easybox" internet computer which is an ARM device with an ISA 
slot (for originally a modem and optionally a NE2000 network board), some 
peripherals, video output and remote keyboard. These can be had for (very) 
cheap. How hard is to port e.g.: Angstrom or something like that for a 
system like this?

    Maybe I hadn't expressed myself well. I want to UNDERSTAND how the port 
is done

    Thanks
    Alexandre

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br 



From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun 30 00:32:12 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2012 22:32:12 -0700
Subject: Adapting linux for other ARM devices. Was:Raspberry Pi and
 America, 
In-Reply-To: <08b401cd567b$8e3cd550$6600a8c0@tababook>
References: <CAMTenCGiHq+aMt7qKVmbhjEH7_gBkxS00G_Em-oWTY_f2b14WQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <08b401cd567b$8e3cd550$6600a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <4FEE2CEC.25681.E537CF@cclist.sydex.com>

On 30 Jun 2012 at 1:47, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:

>     There are lots of old ARM devices around. One that is very common
>     in 
> Brazil is the "easybox" internet computer which is an ARM device with
> an ISA slot (for originally a modem and optionally a NE2000 network
> board), some peripherals, video output and remote keyboard. These can
> be had for (very) cheap. How hard is to port e.g.: Angstrom or
> something like that for a system like this?

As long as you don't need GUI, even on a limited device (not much 
RAM, flash for storage), Busybox Linux is very easy to port.  There 
are many ARM-equipped devices (e.g. DSL modems, etc.) that use it.  
It's very minimal, but it works on some mightly limited devices.

Arch for ARM is another minimal distribution.

Is this what you were asking?

--Chuck




From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Sat Jun 30 00:40:04 2012
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 02:40:04 -0300
Subject: Adapting linux for other ARM devices. Was:Raspberry Pi and
 America, 
References: <CAMTenCGiHq+aMt7qKVmbhjEH7_gBkxS00G_Em-oWTY_f2b14WQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <08b401cd567b$8e3cd550$6600a8c0@tababook>
 <4FEE2CEC.25681.E537CF@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <08ff01cd5682$d5bfb3a0$6600a8c0@tababook>

> Is this what you were asking?

    Thanks Chuck, but I want to understand HOW it is done. I have a XYZ 
device and I know the memory/port map. How do I put it into the code, 
compile and load on the target? 



From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Sat Jun 30 02:37:32 2012
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 09:37:32 +0200
Subject: Adapting linux for other ARM devices. Was:Raspberry Pi and
 America,
In-Reply-To: <08ff01cd5682$d5bfb3a0$6600a8c0@tababook>
References: <CAMTenCGiHq+aMt7qKVmbhjEH7_gBkxS00G_Em-oWTY_f2b14WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <08b401cd567b$8e3cd550$6600a8c0@tababook>
 <4FEE2CEC.25681.E537CF@cclist.sydex.com>
 <08ff01cd5682$d5bfb3a0$6600a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <20120630093732.f5db510a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Sat, 30 Jun 2012 02:40:04 -0300
"Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:

>     Thanks Chuck, but I want to understand HOW it is done. I have a XYZ 
> device and I know the memory/port map. How do I put it into the code, 
> compile and load on the target? 
First: Get access to the bootloader. This may require to access some
debug ports like a RS232 port. Probably you don't even have a usable
bootloader. Then you are back at using JTAG to bitbang the FLASH or
poke a kernel image into RAM, set the CPU PC to the entry point of the
kernel and releasing the CPU HALT...

Once you found a way to get code onto the target build a cross tool
chain and compile a stock Linux kernel for the CPU architecture of the
target. Try to adapt the driver for the console to your target hardware
and boot the kernel. Repeat this until you have a working (serial)
console. Then work your way through the other drvice drivers.

I'd use NetBSD instead of Linux. Cross building NetBSD (kernel and
complete user land) on any POSIX platform is a piece of cake. The
kernel code is much nicer to work on, the code more readable, better
organized and multi architecture support is well implemented, as its
one of NetBSD design goals. Also NetBSD tends to support many older
machines that Linux abandoned. (sun4c, e.g.)
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}



From george at rachors.com  Sat Jun 30 03:33:30 2012
From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 01:33:30 -0700
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <421D086D-B2E9-4FC1-9A97-336E3E86C452@rachors.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <16446803.8622.1340960649971.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vecuf6>
 <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>
 <421D086D-B2E9-4FC1-9A97-336E3E86C452@rachors.com>
Message-ID: <8A3217E6-B672-4386-95D9-C5A26944ABC5@rachors.com>

Well I left the unit unplugged and the battery removed for about 20 hours.

The symptom has now changed.
-- The battery is still out.
1.	I still hear the relays click when plugging in power.
2.	Now there is no activity at all when pressing the front panel power switch.


Starting to sound like power supply?


George

george at rachors.com




On Jun 29, 2012, at 3:47 AM, George Rachor wrote:

> Thanks Mark!
> 
> George
> 
> george at rachors.com
> 
> On Jun 29, 2012, at 2:11 AM, Mark Benson wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> This is a generic fixit for PowerPC Macs but always worth a try:
>> 
>> - Unplug the unit from the mains.
>> - Remove the NVRAM battery
>> - Leave to stand for *at least* 2-3 hours
>> - Power up
>> 
>> The issue is the NVRAM (referred to as PRAM on a Mac just to be
>> contrary) becomes corrupt as the battery runs down. If the machine has
>> been stood unused for a long time it may have this aforementioned
>> amnesia.
>> 
>> I have, however, heard a lot of sorry tales of PowerMac G5s suffering
>> all manner of weird problems with PSUs, leaking liquid coolers and
>> more. It's worth thoroughly checking the whole system over before
>> proceeding.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Mark Benson
>> 
>> http://markbenson.org/blog
>> http://twitter.com/MDBenson
>> 
> 
> 




From md.benson at gmail.com  Sat Jun 30 03:51:38 2012
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 09:51:38 +0100
Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <4FEDF634.6923.F7A18@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <46DF6B8B-28AB-4867-B457-9B26C61E729C@gmail.com>
 <4FEDF634.6923.F7A18@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <1A803157-81F5-4BA0-AA9B-DA2A3B7E7E5B@gmail.com>


On 30 Jun 2012, at 02:38, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 29 Jun 2012 at 20:06, Mark Benson wrote:
> 
> 
>> Do you get sound from the external speaker port on the back?
> 
> No, that's dead silent as well.

Hmm... Try a PRAM Reset. Reboot the machine holding down Command(Apple)-Option(Alt)-P-R

Do it 4 or 5 times for safety. It might just be the volume setting int he PRAM is confused.

If that doesn't fix it it's almost certainly a failure in the audio section on the board, possibly a blown cap something similar.

-- 

Mark Benson

http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK

Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.




From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun 30 11:24:46 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 09:24:46 -0700
Subject: Adapting linux for other ARM devices. Was:Raspberry Pi and
 America, 
In-Reply-To: <20120630093732.f5db510a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <CAMTenCGiHq+aMt7qKVmbhjEH7_gBkxS00G_Em-oWTY_f2b14WQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <08ff01cd5682$d5bfb3a0$6600a8c0@tababook>,
 <20120630093732.f5db510a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <4FEEC5DE.20643.5243EF@cclist.sydex.com>

On 30 Jun 2012 at 9:37, Jochen Kunz wrote:

> I'd use NetBSD instead of Linux. Cross building NetBSD (kernel and
> complete user land) on any POSIX platform is a piece of cake. The
> kernel code is much nicer to work on, the code more readable, better
> organized and multi architecture support is well implemented, as its
> one of NetBSD design goals. Also NetBSD tends to support many older
> machines that Linux abandoned. (sun4c, e.g.) -- 

Good point.  2.11BSD is also a good base for very small systems.  I 
see that a version has been created for the PIC32 that's pretty 
minimal:

http://code.google.com/p/retrobsd/

--Chuck



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Jun 30 12:06:08 2012
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 13:06:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <m1SkkDp-000J4jC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SkkDp-000J4jC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201206301706.NAA29665@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> However, I don't know how easy it is to find NEMA receptacles in the
>> UK, should the owner wish to keep the original line cord intact.
> 2 pin sockets are farily easy to find, 3 pin ones a bit harde.  I
> think either RS componetns or Farnell sell some types, but at very
> high prices.  Surely, though, you can fidn these on Ebay or at a US
> components uspplier who will ship them.

Or for that matter there may be listmembers in North America who could
be convinced to pick one up and pop it in a box....

> IOne socet it not large or heavy.

True.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From wolfgang at eichberger.org  Sat Jun 30 12:55:47 2012
From: wolfgang at eichberger.org (Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 19:55:47 +0200
Subject: Philips P2701E Terminal - Configuration
Message-ID: <CANJYbi_wyYXRqZiFE-+yp3RhhNC+Uc1TOn5GkYBP8DLu6gseQw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

does anyone have a hint how to configure a Philips P2701E serial text
terminal. I found zero Information in the net.... Are these some kind of
rebadged equipment?

Regards,
 Wolfgang


From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat Jun 30 13:26:50 2012
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 13:26:50 -0500
Subject: Adapting Linux for ARM
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1341075600.53280.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1341075600.53280.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4FEF44EA.60405@pico-systems.com>

cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 01:47:24 -0300
From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Adapting linux for other ARM devices. Was:Raspberry Pi and
	America,
Message-ID: <08b401cd567b$8e3cd550$6600a8c0 at tababook>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8";
	reply-type=original


    An interesting question that may fit on this list

    There are lots of old ARM devices around. One that is very common in 
Brazil is the "easybox" internet computer which is an ARM device with an ISA 
slot (for originally a modem and optionally a NE2000 network board), some 
peripherals, video output and remote keyboard. These can be had for (very) 
cheap. How hard is to port e.g.: Angstrom or something like that for a 
system like this?

    Maybe I hadn't expressed myself well. I want to UNDERSTAND how the port 
is done


Well, depending on the exact flavor of ARM CPU, it could be easy or 
VERY, VERY hard.
The problem is that the ARM CPUs may all have essentially the same 
instruction set,
but the on-chip peripheral configuration can be quite different.  Also, 
some chips had
significant bugs that needed workarounds.  The ARM architecture spans a 
wide range
of performance and capability.

The Beagle Board is an amazing system on a 75 mm square board, with USB, 
HDMI
256 M RAM, SD memory card and runs on less than 2 W power.  You can run a
full Linux Ubuntu system on it.  I use them for net-attached devices 
that export
TCP services or Glade GUIs to control little boards that stack with the 
Beagle.

If you have an existing port for a related chip, or a board that uses 
the same ARM chip,
it may not be that difficult.  There will be a source code base and a 
development
tools environment.  You mostly customize the list of drivers to be 
included, possibly
providing some parameters to select what peripherals are enabled and how 
to route
them to the board.

If you are starting with a generic source tree and a chip that has not 
has Linux ported
to it (or the port has not been updated in years) then it can be QUITE 
messy.

I built an updated kernel for the Beagle board ON the beagle board, it 
took about
a day to compile the kernel.  That's why they use toolkits to do it on a PC.

Jon


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Jun 30 13:56:52 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 19:56:52 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEpXo5ZaZRy8_q+h_b491vvT5-0yGOLoF5933G6yQhfVA@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Liam Proven" at Jun 30, 12 02:44:06 am
Message-ID: <m1Sl2qp-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 29 June 2012 23:15, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Tony *might* approve if the published documentation included detailed
> >> instructions on how to mine your own copper ore, smelt it, build a
> >> silicon refinery, fabricate your own CPU, spin glass fibre and
> >> synthesize resin and then manufacture your own circuit board.
> >>
> >> But I do emphasize the "might" here...
> >
> > Actually, I'd be very likely to approve of it if :
> >
> > It came complete, that is to say I could just plug it in and go without
> > having to pay to download and print manuals, download the OS, etc
> 
> Then it would cost significantly more than =C2=A330.

True. But a prodcut I can't use is surely a total waste of money. 

IMHO documentation is not an option, it's essential. If you can't work 
out how to use something, it's *(by defintion) useless. 

> > The docuemtnation let me figure out how to use the thing.
> 
> It's a device to teach kids programming. The bulk of the information
> is on the web. You'd need a Web-capable computer and a broadband
> connection.

That is one of the most worrying things I've read in a long time (not 
your fault at all, I am not blaming you). 

To use the Rpi you need various bits from a PC (USB keybaord, some kind 
of PSU, normally a mouse, monitor, etc). And you need access to the web, 
the conventioanl way to get that is to have a PC. 

So, the Rpi is goign to be sold mostly to people who already have a 
computer (at lleast in Eirope and the States). In whci hcase, why not 
simply install prgrammign tools on said computer and program that. Heck, 
you could dual-boot linus and Windows about 15 years ago (at least). 

> 
> > Given that, I might actualyl buy one.
> 
> It is really not a device for you, given your predilection for
> vintage, technically-documented hardware. It's a closed-spec

Actually, I _did_ have an appication in mind where I might haev used one. 
The reason I was asking about the GPIO port was that I wanted to see how 
easy it would be to inteface it to an HPIB system. Given that the RPi 
already has soem kind fo filesystem nd cna presuambly communicate with 
USB stoeage deviecs and, of course, SD cards, I was wondering if it might 
be the unit to use to make a HP disk drive emulator, soemthign to conenct 
to my HP9000s, etc in place of the CS/80, SS/80 and Amigo drives.


> undocumented system-on-a-chip with some supporting hardware, which

Origianlyl it was climed ot be 'open'. I have now relaised that this 
'open' is not what I would call it.

> assumes that the owner has a basic set of 21st century equipment to
> hand: USB hub, USB keyboard, USB mouse, USB power supply, SD media and
> a host PC that can read/write SD media, an HDMI-capable
> high-definition flatscreen TV and so on. None of which you own and
> from what you have told me before none of which you want to own.

For an embeeded use, presumably you don't; need all that once it's 
working... 

> 
> 
> > A couple of serious questions :
> >
> > 1) AS has been confiremd the data sheet on the main 'chip' doesn't
> > include docuemtnation on certain parts of it (video-related?). Are thos=
> e
> > parts simply not used by the standard linux for the Rpi, or are the
> > drives supplied as binary-only, or what?
> 
> Binary drivers for Linux only, no other OS. GPU is proprietary,
> undocumented and protected Broadcom IP; they will not disclose

That's the reall downer for me. 

> details. Even the Linux driver only exposes certain, limited APIs and
> functions that the R=CF=80 Foundation have paid for, such as H.264 video
> decode. There are lots of other functions in the GPU that Linux cannot
> access and never will unless someone pays quite a lot of license fees
> to Broadcom.
> 
> The device /has/ no discrete CPU; the processor is a small, low-spec,
> old-fashioned ARM core of a type long superseded and no longer
> supported by most current Linux distributions, which has been masked
> onto some spare gates on one corner of the GPU die.

Right... It is presumably powerful enough for the application I've just 
suggested (given that hte origianl HP drive units used a 68B09, albeit 
with supporting hardware).

> 
> The machine boots because the GPU reads a FAT filesystem on the SD
> card, looks for files of certain names, loads them into RAM and then
> boots the ARM core and starts it executing.

Is that fully docuemtned? In otehr wordsm if you don't want video 
functions at all, can you work with the bare metal?

> 
> It's not a CPU with an attached GPU as most modern computers; it's a
> GPU with an afterthought of a CPU bolted onto the side.

THat makes little differnece practically, I do realise it's essnetially 
one big 'chip' in the  middle (I had heard it was actually deveral 
silicon dice in the package, but that makes no practical difference either).

> 
> > 2) I understnad the's some kind of GPIO/user port. How many lines, are
> > they individually selectable for direction? Can this be easilly used fr=
> om
> > C (I assuem there's a C vompiler included with the OS).
> 
> Don't know.
> 
> Wikipedia says:
> 
> Low-level peripherals:	8 =C3=97 GPIO, UART, I=C2=B2C bus, SPI bus with tw=
> o chip
> selects, +3.3 V, +5 V, ground
> 
> ... If that means anything to you; it doesn't to me mostly.

YEs, it does.

The 'UART' is presumably an ansynchronous serial port, the sort of thing 
ypou could feed into a level shifter IC and turn into an RS232 port. 

I2C (Inter-IC Communication) is a Philips serial bux using 2 signals 
(clock and data). It was origianly designed to send control infformation 
to the ICs in a TV set or whehrever (so the microcontorlelr could send 
the contrast value to the video decoder chip, send the teletext page 
numbner ot that decoder, etc). It's varily low-speed, but fast ewnough 
for that. More useuflly there are some general-purpose ICs iwht I2C 
interfaces -- 8 bit paralle I/O, ADCs, DACs, etc

SPI is an older (and IMHO inferiour) serial conmmunicatio nstandard for 
things like ADCs, DACs, etc. One differnece is that I2C includes 
addressing (you need nothing other than the clock and data lines), while 
SPI has clock, data in, data out and select lines, the last being a 
separate signal for each IC (hende '2 chip selects' implies only 2 SPI 
peripherals. 

> It's accessible from Linux and therefore from any Linux programming

I wonder how much of it is easily accessible from Linux. Are there 
supplied libraries to talk to I2C devies, etc?

Anyway, the problems for me now are hte lack of docuemntation, the 
closed-source OS (not somethign I want on any machien I have to debug) 
and the fact it appears you can't actually get one without a long wait. 

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Jun 30 13:33:28 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 19:33:28 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <CAApARtte-W_6-KBVCdRj_ndYDda3YYjnnWMtfStE=0yXJXTrXg@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Rob" at Jun 30, 12 01:08:43 am
Message-ID: <m1Sl2UA-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> Therefore today I bought a new USB keyboard, and an optical mouse for
> good measure.  Cost me a total of =A37.50 (<=8010) from the local
> supermarket. I'm powering the Pi from the USB media port on the TV

I'll bet that keyboard is unpleasant to use :-)....

However, given that you can get the bits farily cheaply (all apart form 
the monitor [1]), I feel that there should be a marketed 'complete' Rpi, 
conssiing of the board, keyboard, mouse, psu, OS (on SD card), 
cables,etc. Of course it woudl cost more, but you wouldn't ahve to get 
anything else to use it with a noraml TV or monitor.

[1] I was amazed top find a local pound shop were selling mains charagers 
for the Ipod. They were wall-wart things with a USB ouptu socket, marked 
5V, 1000mA (!). Intrigued I bought one and took it apart (screws under 
the lable, yes, it can be opened for repair non-destructively). It's a 
small SMPSU, all discrte components on an SRBP PCB. Given that I can't 
even get the chopper transsitor for htat...

> that it is using as a display! I can't remember where the micro-usb
> cable came from, but the HDMI cable was a poundshop jobbie some time
> back. None of it is going to break the bank and I think that allowing
> use of such commodity items is a Good Thing - even if people don't

So do I. I would not for  a moment suggest that they should have used a 
custom keybaord. And I can see why you might want just hte bare board -- 
for embedded use, as a replacemetn, etc. I jsut htink there should _also_ 
be a package deal with all the bits you need included.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Jun 30 14:01:00 2012
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 20:01:00 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <B8772795-ECF1-4741-AECD-39CC8DAD381A@gmail.com> from "David
 Riley" at Jun 29, 12 09:45:02 pm
Message-ID: <m1Sl2uo-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

> > 2) I understnad the's some kind of GPIO/user port. How many lines, are 
> > they individually selectable for direction? Can this be easilly used from 
> > C (I assuem there's a C vompiler included with the OS).
> 
> There is a 26-pin GPIO port available of which 17 pins can be used

Am i rigth that that's a 2*13 header, of the type we are dicussing in the 
ST412 emulator thread? 

> for I/O (the rest are power, ground or NC).  The GPIO pins are the
> standard bidirectional, tristatable things you would expect.  Some
> of the in functions are muxed with SPI, UART, I2C and I2S so that
> you can use more advanced devices without bit-banging.  Almost all

How many (if any) of those clash? In otehr weords can I use the UART and 
the I2C (say) at the same time, or do they share port pins?

> of these are accessible through standard Linux APIs, though the
> support is not 100% there in all of the distributions currently
> extant for the device (they're catching up fast, though).
> 
> This page gives a good overview:
> 
> http://elinux.org/Rpi_Low-level_peripherals
> 
> There's no buffering, and everything is 3.3v, so for a lot of real
> world applications you'd need to at least give it some buffers to
> keep the ESD demons away.  For a lot, though, you can get away
> with taking chances (especially for a $25/$35 board).

No, as you know,m I'd buffer them. Ys, the set of buffers, the PCB to put 
them on, etc migth well cost more than an Rpi board. But I keep buffers i 
nthe junk box. Get Rpi's seems to be non-trivial

-tony



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Jun 30 14:51:15 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 15:51:15 -0400
Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <m1Sl2qp-000J4YC@p850ug1>
References: <m1Sl2qp-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FEF58B3.2060003@neurotica.com>

On 06/30/2012 02:56 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
> I2C (Inter-IC Communication) is a Philips serial bux using 2 signals 
> (clock and data). It was origianly designed to send control infformation 
> to the ICs in a TV set or whehrever (so the microcontorlelr could send 
> the contrast value to the video decoder chip, send the teletext page 
> numbner ot that decoder, etc). It's varily low-speed, but fast ewnough 
> for that. More useuflly there are some general-purpose ICs iwht I2C 
> interfaces -- 8 bit paralle I/O, ADCs, DACs, etc
> 
> SPI is an older (and IMHO inferiour) serial conmmunicatio nstandard for 
> things like ADCs, DACs, etc. One differnece is that I2C includes 
> addressing (you need nothing other than the clock and data lines), while 
> SPI has clock, data in, data out and select lines, the last being a 
> separate signal for each IC (hende '2 chip selects' implies only 2 SPI 
> peripherals. 

  I use both regularly.  SPI is inferior in some ways, but superior in
others.  I personally prefer I2C, but there are situation in which SPI
is a better choice.  It is MUCH faster (I2C tops out at 400KHz, I've
seen SPI up in the several-MHz range), and I2C's transfer size is fixed
at eight bits, while SPI can transfer arbitrary word widths.  (this is
handy for, say, ADCs and DACs).

  I2C, however, uses in-band addressing so it saves board space and I/O
pins over SPI.

  So, while I personally prefer I2C, I believe it is incorrect to
consider SPI to be inferior, since it they both have their strengths and
weaknesses.  The industry agrees, as both have been around for decades
and are still considered de-facto standards for local low-speed
communications. (I first used I2C on a Philips 87C751 microcontroller on
a gov't related project in 1991, and it was well-established even then!)

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 30 14:59:14 2012
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 12:59:14 -0700
Subject: Teletype ASR33 110 or 220V?
In-Reply-To: <CACStewaXhSeQvD1agfHeHiexHs879tbLoQhfuDg_DBaAxy-cNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACStewZZ+V4fNskjsSexYHTLFdagDED03vqEsoYZcTL438Gf_g@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4FEC2BA9.1076.4B4A79@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4FECF1FB.5080805@dunnington.plus.com>,
 <01fecc12e1ecd05c203953de6c650dba.squirrel@farumdata.dk>,
 <CACStewaXhSeQvD1agfHeHiexHs879tbLoQhfuDg_DBaAxy-cNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT129-W57269D424899888B62C8E5A3E40@phx.gbl>



 

> From: sander.reiche at gmail.com
> 
> On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 7:49 AM, <nico at farumdata.dk> wrote:
> >> On 28/06/2012 18:02, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> >>> On 28 Jun 2012 at 15:22, Sander Reiche wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Do you guys know of a failsafe way to check if a Teletype is for 110
> >>>> or 220V? I've bought one which has a power connector which seems like
> >>>> US mains. The motor is 50Hz, but I guess that won't make a difference.
> >>>> Any quick way to check without completely dismantling the machine?
> >>>
> >>> If the motor is verifiably 50Hz, the probability is overwhelming that
> >>> it's 220V.
> >>
> >> Probably not, actually.  My supplied-in-the-UK ASR33 is 50Hz and has a
> >> 110V motor, and has a big transformer in the base to allow it to be used
> >> on 240V AC mains.  So have other UK models I've looked at.
> >>
> > And the same goes for the danish models I've laid eyes on.
> > /Nico
> >
> 
> All this talk about the transformer in the base made my think. I
> didn't get a base with this one, but did get a separate large
> transformer. Now only to find the place within the ASR to put that
> weird connector.
> http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/220v4.jpg
> 
> re,
> 
> Sander
> 

Hi Sander
 I suspect that is a step down transformer but, from the connector,
most likely for some other piece of equipment. I'd plug the 220V plug
in and measure the output at the screw on connector with a meter.
If you want to save the cord with the 110v end, just cut that screw
on connector off and wire the end directly inside the 33. It sounds
like you'll be in bussiness.
Dwight
  		 	   		  

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Sat Jun 30 15:25:46 2012
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 13:25:46 -0700
Subject: Break-ins
Message-ID: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>

Got a bit of a scare this week.  I have most of my equipment stored and I received a call indicating
that the lock on one of my units was missing.  The management put a "temporary" lock on the unit
until I could get down and survey what was going on (and put a new lock on it).

I went down this morning and there in front of the door to my unit was my lock that had been cut off
(I suspect with bolt cutters).  Fortunately, there doesn't appear to be any mischief (other than having
to replace the lock).  I suspect that someone was confused (and probably lost the key to their lock)
and opened my unit.  When they saw what was in it they moved on.  The reason that I suspect this
was that nothing was disturbed and there are several obvious items near the front that would've probably
gone missing if theft was the motivation.

I put a new high security lock in place of the old padlock and will probably replace my other padlocks
with high security locks to prevent this sort of thing in the future.

TTFN - Guy


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun 30 15:27:45 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 13:27:45 -0700
Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <4FEF58B3.2060003@neurotica.com>
References: <m1Sl2qp-000J4YC@p850ug1>, <4FEF58B3.2060003@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4FEEFED1.8299.130B84D@cclist.sydex.com>

On 30 Jun 2012 at 15:51, Dave McGuire wrote:

>   I use both regularly.  SPI is inferior in some ways, but superior in
> others.  I personally prefer I2C, but there are situation in which SPI
> is a better choice.  It is MUCH faster (I2C tops out at 400KHz, I've
> seen SPI up in the several-MHz range), and I2C's transfer size is
> fixed at eight bits, while SPI can transfer arbitrary word widths. 
> (this is handy for, say, ADCs and DACs).

Indeed, let's see you access an SDHC card using I2C at, say, 20MHz.

--Chuck



From classiccmp at crash.com  Sat Jun 30 15:33:54 2012
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 13:33:54 -0700
Subject: Break-ins
In-Reply-To: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>
References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <4FEF62B2.7050808@crash.com>

On 06/30/2012 01:25 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> I put a new high security lock in place of the old padlock and will probably replace my other padlocks
> with high security locks to prevent this sort of thing in the future.

First, glad to hear it wasn't something dire!

Second, what qualifies as a "high security lock?" Is the shackle 
specially hardened or something? Any brand/supplier recommendations? I 
suspect that many (myself included) have at least one storage locker or 
shed and wouldn't mind a little extra insurance...

Thanks,
--Steve.



From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Sat Jun 30 15:38:56 2012
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 13:38:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Break-ins
In-Reply-To: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>
References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206301338370.5806@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>

On Sat, 30 Jun 2012, Guy Sotomayor wrote:

> I put a new high security lock in place of the old padlock and will probably replace my other padlocks
> with high security locks to prevent this sort of thing in the future.

What do you consider a "high security lock"?

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Sat Jun 30 16:05:56 2012
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 17:05:56 -0400
Subject: Break-ins
References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206301338370.5806@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <2AEE3B92BEDD491F9ECA2EB430AE9D59@hd2600xt6a04f7>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Griffith" <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: Break-ins


> On Sat, 30 Jun 2012, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>
>> I put a new high security lock in place of the old padlock and will 
>> probably replace my other padlocks
>> with high security locks to prevent this sort of thing in the future.
>
> What do you consider a "high security lock"?
>

Don't thieves look for "high security locks" when looking for somebody to 
rob (as in something good is inside)?

http://www.storagefront.com/storagetips/self-storage-basics/choosing-a-good-lock

Looks like the high security locks are just harder to pick and cut off. 



From ggs at shiresoft.com  Sat Jun 30 16:12:40 2012
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 14:12:40 -0700
Subject: Break-ins
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206301338370.5806@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206301338370.5806@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <4393F4A2-3477-47C9-91B6-E9C58E8034FB@shiresoft.com>


On Jun 30, 2012, at 1:38 PM, David Griffith wrote:

> On Sat, 30 Jun 2012, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> 
>> I put a new high security lock in place of the old padlock and will probably replace my other padlocks
>> with high security locks to prevent this sort of thing in the future.
> 
> What do you consider a "high security lock"?

They're the round locks that have a circular bolt.  The good ones have hardened cases?the cheap ones
are stamped.  The idea is that a lot more work is involved in breaking in as there's no really good way to
get bolt cutters on them (or more specifically the bolt).

TTFN - Guy




From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun 30 16:22:58 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 14:22:58 -0700
Subject: Break-ins
In-Reply-To: <2AEE3B92BEDD491F9ECA2EB430AE9D59@hd2600xt6a04f7>
References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>,
 <2AEE3B92BEDD491F9ECA2EB430AE9D59@hd2600xt6a04f7>
Message-ID: <4FEF0BC2.20698.163449B@cclist.sydex.com>

On 30 Jun 2012 at 17:05, TeoZ wrote:
 
> Don't thieves look for "high security locks" when looking for somebody
> to rob (as in something good is inside)?

Reminds me of the "40 pound rule" on bicycle locks.   To wit, if you 
have a 35 pound bike, a lock weighing 5 pounds will be sufficient to 
secure it. If you have a 20 pound bike, you should invest in a lock 
that weighs no less than 20 lbs.

Those living in metricland, divide the above quantities by 2.2.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun 30 16:28:31 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 14:28:31 -0700
Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <1A803157-81F5-4BA0-AA9B-DA2A3B7E7E5B@gmail.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <4FEDF634.6923.F7A18@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <1A803157-81F5-4BA0-AA9B-DA2A3B7E7E5B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEF0D0F.31702.1685906@cclist.sydex.com>

On 30 Jun 2012 at 9:51, Mark Benson wrote:

> Hmm... Try a PRAM Reset. Reboot the machine holding down
> Command(Apple)-Option(Alt)-P-R

Is something supposed to happen if I do that?  I must have performed 
that at least half a dozen times and the system just boots to 
"Welcome to Macintosh" each time without any acknowledgement that I 
had any keys pressed.  I also left the PRAM battery out of its socket 
overnight as a preliminary measure.

Okay, so if it's a capacitor, is it likely to be one of the SMT cans 
or one of the rectangular SMT tantalums?  What area of the board 
(quadrant) is most likely to have the failing component?  Can you 
furnish any component designators?

Apple service guides won't even tell you what the various LSI chips 
do, much less their pinouts or specifications.  The "if it doesn't 
work, thow it away" mentality of Apple that I love so much...

Thanks,
Chuck



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Jun 30 16:29:52 2012
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 22:29:52 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <m1Sl2UA-000J4TC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <6B0C9DDA9E454486BA7318D4ACD08872@G4UGMT41>

In the UK RS will sell you all the bits needed, and when you order it lists
a few but I can't remember if it included everything. I ordered an SD Card
with OS installed. I can't remember if I was offered the USB keyboard but I
did order the 4gb card with OS installed.

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org 
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell
> Sent: 30 June 2012 19:33
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi and America,
> 
> 
> > Therefore today I bought a new USB keyboard, and an optical 
> mouse for 
> > good measure.  Cost me a total of =A37.50 (<=8010) from the local 
> > supermarket. I'm powering the Pi from the USB media port on the TV
> 
> I'll bet that keyboard is unpleasant to use :-)....
> 
> However, given that you can get the bits farily cheaply (all 
> apart form 
> the monitor [1]), I feel that there should be a marketed 
> 'complete' Rpi, 
> conssiing of the board, keyboard, mouse, psu, OS (on SD card), 
> cables,etc. Of course it woudl cost more, but you wouldn't 
> ahve to get 
> anything else to use it with a noraml TV or monitor.
> 
> [1] I was amazed top find a local pound shop were selling 
> mains charagers 
> for the Ipod. They were wall-wart things with a USB ouptu 
> socket, marked 
> 5V, 1000mA (!). Intrigued I bought one and took it apart 
> (screws under 
> the lable, yes, it can be opened for repair 
> non-destructively). It's a 
> small SMPSU, all discrte components on an SRBP PCB. Given 
> that I can't 
> even get the chopper transsitor for htat...
> 
> > that it is using as a display! I can't remember where the micro-usb 
> > cable came from, but the HDMI cable was a poundshop jobbie 
> some time 
> > back. None of it is going to break the bank and I think 
> that allowing 
> > use of such commodity items is a Good Thing - even if people don't
> 
> So do I. I would not for  a moment suggest that they should 
> have used a 
> custom keybaord. And I can see why you might want just hte 
> bare board -- 
> for embedded use, as a replacemetn, etc. I jsut htink there 
> should _also_ 
> be a package deal with all the bits you need included.
> 
> -tony
> 
> 



From ryan at hack.net  Sat Jun 30 16:37:54 2012
From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 16:37:54 -0500
Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <4FEF0D0F.31702.1685906@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <4FEDF634.6923.F7A18@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <1A803157-81F5-4BA0-AA9B-DA2A3B7E7E5B@gmail.com>
 <4FEF0D0F.31702.1685906@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <52D55E10-BD81-403B-B93B-13FADBE3B5DA@hack.net>


On Jun 30, 2012, at 4:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 30 Jun 2012 at 9:51, Mark Benson wrote:
> 
>> Hmm... Try a PRAM Reset. Reboot the machine holding down
>> Command(Apple)-Option(Alt)-P-R
> 
> Is something supposed to happen if I do that?  I must have performed 
> that at least half a dozen times and the system just boots to 
> "Welcome to Macintosh" each time without any acknowledgement that I 
> had any keys pressed.  I also left the PRAM battery out of its socket 
> overnight as a preliminary measure.
> 

Normally, it would make a bong sound each reboot, but if it is getting the the booting screen, it is not receiving the keypress/not acting on it.   You sure on the C-O+P+R key combo?

Can you get into open firmware as others have suggested?

> Okay, so if it's a capacitor, is it likely to be one of the SMT cans 
> or one of the rectangular SMT tantalums?  What area of the board 
> (quadrant) is most likely to have the failing component?  Can you 
> furnish any component designators?
> 
> Apple service guides won't even tell you what the various LSI chips 
> do, much less their pinouts or specifications.  The "if it doesn't 
> work, thow it away" mentality of Apple that I love so much?
> 

And this is different than a PC motherboard how?      Let me (reliably) reflow that BGA that I can buy where?   Data sheet?


> Thanks,
> Chuck
> 




From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Jun 30 17:10:22 2012
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 17:10:22 -0500
Subject: Break-ins
In-Reply-To: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>
References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMNdS0_=daR=E4ymibk1U8GBUe5ZtVTND6Wsf9YxcDkmg@mail.gmail.com>

I was once told that locks were made to keep honest people out. If
someone wants in bad enough, they will get it.Thermite, anyone?


On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> Got a bit of a scare this week. ?I have most of my equipment stored and I received a call indicating
> that the lock on one of my units was missing. ?The management put a "temporary" lock on the unit
> until I could get down and survey what was going on (and put a new lock on it).
>
> I went down this morning and there in front of the door to my unit was my lock that had been cut off
> (I suspect with bolt cutters). ?Fortunately, there doesn't appear to be any mischief (other than having
> to replace the lock). ?I suspect that someone was confused (and probably lost the key to their lock)
> and opened my unit. ?When they saw what was in it they moved on. ?The reason that I suspect this
> was that nothing was disturbed and there are several obvious items near the front that would've probably
> gone missing if theft was the motivation.
>
> I put a new high security lock in place of the old padlock and will probably replace my other padlocks
> with high security locks to prevent this sort of thing in the future.
>
> TTFN - Guy



From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Sat Jun 30 17:32:45 2012
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 10:32:45 +1200
Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead
Message-ID: <CACaZngnQ+QnEEu3ZQWOyqgunDCtj-0SSjCa74HJBw-80YZhwqw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Guys,

I posted this note on Vintage Computer Forums, and thought I'd see if
anyone could help here too.

T actually an acceptable looking TRS-80 Model 1 monitor I snagged for $3
but I figure the principles are the same regardless.

It's dead. No raster and no glow in the tube neck. The board does heat uo
though and there is that smell of old electronics being startled awake
after many years. I've done no tests yet, but I have Sam's Facts for the
model 1, and they provide a troubleshooting guide for the monitor and say
what voltages should be on cetain components. I suspect something to do
with the AC power supply of maybe horizontal sweep. Some faulty power
transistor maybe?

What I would appreciate from anyone who knows, is a link to a page or doc
which explains how composite B/W monitors work. The Sam's document is great
from the perspective of troubleshooting detail but it does assume you know,
conceptually, just what's going on. I don't and I'd like to get some
understanding before I start poking around.

Incidently the SAM's fact PDF covers the 110V version while I have a 240V
one. There are some differences, one of which is there appears to be no
fuses in the AC circuits!

Thanks

Tez


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Jun 30 17:33:12 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 18:33:12 -0400
Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <4FEEFED1.8299.130B84D@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1Sl2qp-000J4YC@p850ug1>, <4FEF58B3.2060003@neurotica.com>
 <4FEEFED1.8299.130B84D@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FEF7EA8.9010207@neurotica.com>

On 06/30/2012 04:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>   I use both regularly.  SPI is inferior in some ways, but superior in
>> others.  I personally prefer I2C, but there are situation in which SPI
>> is a better choice.  It is MUCH faster (I2C tops out at 400KHz, I've
>> seen SPI up in the several-MHz range), and I2C's transfer size is
>> fixed at eight bits, while SPI can transfer arbitrary word widths. 
>> (this is handy for, say, ADCs and DACs).
> 
> Indeed, let's see you access an SDHC card using I2C at, say, 20MHz.

  Very true. :-)  But for a real-time clock or a few kB of EEPROM,
400KHz is usually just fine.  It's rare for any of my designs for work
to not involve both SPI and I2C.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Jun 30 17:34:24 2012
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 18:34:24 -0400
Subject: dirtbags, was Re: Break-ins
In-Reply-To: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>
References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <4FEF7EF0.20500@neurotica.com>

On 06/30/2012 04:25 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> Got a bit of a scare this week.  I have most of my equipment stored and I received a call indicating
> that the lock on one of my units was missing.  The management put a "temporary" lock on the unit
> until I could get down and survey what was going on (and put a new lock on it).
> 
> I went down this morning and there in front of the door to my unit was my lock that had been cut off
> (I suspect with bolt cutters).  Fortunately, there doesn't appear to be any mischief (other than having
> to replace the lock).  I suspect that someone was confused (and probably lost the key to their lock)
> and opened my unit.  When they saw what was in it they moved on.  The reason that I suspect this
> was that nothing was disturbed and there are several obvious items near the front that would've probably
> gone missing if theft was the motivation.
> 
> I put a new high security lock in place of the old padlock and will probably replace my other padlocks
> with high security locks to prevent this sort of thing in the future.

  I'm sorry that happened to you, Guy.  This is terrible.  At least
nothing was missing!  You got lucky there.

  It's strangely coincidental, but a coincidence is really all it can
be.  As you've no doubt heard, I've moved from FL to PA.  I'm actually
still in the process of moving; eight trucks and counting.  There's not
much left in my old house, mostly my collection of antique scientific
instruments.  About sixty pieces, mostly 100+ years old.  Also the last
ten or so racks, and my VAX-11/730.

  Anyway, that house was broken into two nights ago.  My mother, who
lives a few miles away, has been driving by to check on the house.  She
was kind enough to deal with the detectives, etc in my absence.  The
friggin' dirtbags stole some stuff and just wantonly destroyed a bunch
of other things.  And, in true dirtbag fashion, left cigarette butts
everywhere.

  When they were all done, many hours later, my mother returned home to
find that HER house had been broken into in her absence!

  We think it was the same person, a day-laborer who she and I have both
hired on occasion to move things, etc.

  I am angry beyond words.

  The world is going to hell in a handbasket.  There are scumbags
everywhere and they are reproducing like crazy.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun 30 17:36:17 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 15:36:17 -0700
Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <52D55E10-BD81-403B-B93B-13FADBE3B5DA@hack.net>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <4FEF0D0F.31702.1685906@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <52D55E10-BD81-403B-B93B-13FADBE3B5DA@hack.net>
Message-ID: <4FEF1CF1.22683.1A66750@cclist.sydex.com>

On 30 Jun 2012 at 16:37, Ryan Brooks wrote:

> Normally, it would make a bong sound each reboot, but if it is getting
> the the booting screen, it is not receiving the keypress/not acting on
> it.   You sure on the C-O+P+R key combo?

With cmd+option+p+r pressed, the screen cycles between grey and 
black.  When released, the "Welcome to Macintosh" boot screen comes 
up.  But nothing happens, otherwise--the speaker is still silent.

> Can you get into open firmware as others have suggested?

Well, you have me there.  I didn't think that NuBus Macs had open 
firmware.  At any rate Cmd+option+O+F is completely ignored.  But if 
there's Open Firmware on that machine, I'd appreciate knowing how to 
get to it.

> And this is different than a PC motherboard how?      Let me
> (reliably) reflow that BGA that I can buy where?   Data sheet?

I can find datasheets for most PC chipsets of the 6100's vintage 
(1994) and at least know what signals to look for.  On the Apple, not 
so much.  I don't replace BGAs (but I know people who do) but I have 
replaced QFPs without serious issues--and the ones on the 6100 aren't 
particularly fine-pitch, so they should be a walk in the park to 
change.

So where are the Apple datasheets on the 4 largish 124-pin QFPs on 
the 6100?  Surely, Apple can't be worried about IP on a nearly 20 
year old design...

--Chuck



From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Sat Jun 30 17:36:50 2012
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 10:36:50 +1200
Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngnQ+QnEEu3ZQWOyqgunDCtj-0SSjCa74HJBw-80YZhwqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngnQ+QnEEu3ZQWOyqgunDCtj-0SSjCa74HJBw-80YZhwqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACaZngktQEw=ywaNthSXK+joQpxJsykNfWQgZwxAyqwXfZxdjQ@mail.gmail.com>

Gee...hit the wrong button on the keyboard when using Gmail and your
message is sent before you finish editing!

Anyway, I was about to edit the first sentence to say "The monitor
concerned is actually an.....".

You get the gist anyway!

Tez


On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Terry Stewart <terry at webweavers.co.nz>wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> I posted this note on Vintage Computer Forums, and thought I'd see if
> anyone could help here too.
>
> T actually an acceptable looking TRS-80 Model 1 monitor I snagged for $3
> but I figure the principles are the same regardless.
>
> It's dead. No raster and no glow in the tube neck. The board does heat uo
> though and there is that smell of old electronics being startled awake
> after many years. I've done no tests yet, but I have Sam's Facts for the
> model 1, and they provide a troubleshooting guide for the monitor and say
> what voltages should be on cetain components. I suspect something to do
> with the AC power supply of maybe horizontal sweep. Some faulty power
> transistor maybe?
>
> What I would appreciate from anyone who knows, is a link to a page or doc
> which explains how composite B/W monitors work. The Sam's document is great
> from the perspective of troubleshooting detail but it does assume you know,
> conceptually, just what's going on. I don't and I'd like to get some
> understanding before I start poking around.
>
> Incidently the SAM's fact PDF covers the 110V version while I have a 240V
> one. There are some differences, one of which is there appears to be no
> fuses in the AC circuits!
>
> Thanks
>
> Tez
>


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun 30 17:37:47 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 15:37:47 -0700
Subject: Break-ins
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuMNdS0_=daR=E4ymibk1U8GBUe5ZtVTND6Wsf9YxcDkmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>,
 <CACwhfuMNdS0_=daR=E4ymibk1U8GBUe5ZtVTND6Wsf9YxcDkmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEF1D4B.17578.1A7C579@cclist.sydex.com>

On 30 Jun 2012 at 17:10, Paul Anderson wrote:

> I was once told that locks were made to keep honest people out. If
> someone wants in bad enough, they will get it.Thermite, anyone?

The point of a good lock is that it will look like it's too much 
trouble and the crooks will just move on to the next unit...

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Jun 30 18:19:34 2012
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 16:19:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngnQ+QnEEu3ZQWOyqgunDCtj-0SSjCa74HJBw-80YZhwqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngnQ+QnEEu3ZQWOyqgunDCtj-0SSjCa74HJBw-80YZhwqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120630161350.M56833@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 1 Jul 2012, Terry Stewart wrote:
> T actually an acceptable looking TRS-80 Model 1 monitor I snagged for $3
> but I figure the principles are the same regardless.

True.
At least in USA, the TRS80 Model1 monitor is a slightly modified RCA TV
set.  One of that specific model was visible in the background
occasionally on Al Bundy's kitchen counter in "Married With Children"

> after many years. I've done no tests yet, but I have Sam's Facts for the
> model 1, and they provide a troubleshooting guide for the monitor and say

In which case, the ancestral RCA information probably doesn't give you
any additional help.


Until you succeed in fixing it, the TRS80 Model1 will work just fine with
a generic USA RS170 monitor, if you make an appropriate DIN to video
cable, or open the model1 and tap the signal.


From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Sat Jun 30 18:53:15 2012
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 16:53:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Break-ins
In-Reply-To: <4393F4A2-3477-47C9-91B6-E9C58E8034FB@shiresoft.com>
References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206301338370.5806@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <4393F4A2-3477-47C9-91B6-E9C58E8034FB@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206301652560.15747@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>

On Sat, 30 Jun 2012, Guy Sotomayor wrote:

>
> On Jun 30, 2012, at 1:38 PM, David Griffith wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 30 Jun 2012, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>>
>>> I put a new high security lock in place of the old padlock and will probably replace my other padlocks
>>> with high security locks to prevent this sort of thing in the future.
>>
>> What do you consider a "high security lock"?
>
> They're the round locks that have a circular bolt.  The good ones have 
> hardened cases?the cheap ones are stamped.  The idea is that a lot more 
> work is involved in breaking in as there's no really good way to get 
> bolt cutters on them (or more specifically the bolt).

AKA Discus locks?  I use those.

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Sat Jun 30 19:51:47 2012
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 12:51:47 +1200
Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead
In-Reply-To: <20120630161350.M56833@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CACaZngnQ+QnEEu3ZQWOyqgunDCtj-0SSjCa74HJBw-80YZhwqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120630161350.M56833@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CACaZngmGQ0cVJrnfSUtDxR=k_a4ey5Z4PPBDR_KW65YCDapuow@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Fred,

Thanks.  Yes, I do have another monitor I've been using for the Model 1
(see http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/trs-80-model1.htm) ,
but I'm slowly acquiring the full system.  So it's not that I just want a
working system, I'm wanting a working Tandy badged system.

>In which case, the ancestral RCA information probably doesn't give you
>any additional help.

No, actually it might.  The SAMS document, although it has a
troubleshooting guide, seems to assume a knowledge of how a monitor
actually works. What I'm looking for is this generic higher level kind of
knowledge.  I could just follow the troubleshooting guide through step by
step but my monitor is 240V, while the SAMS guide is for 110V.  There are
bound to be small differences.  If I know, conceptually, what's suppose to
be happening, it will help.  I might also stop me electrocuting myself! (-:

Terry (Tez).


On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 1 Jul 2012, Terry Stewart wrote:
> > T actually an acceptable looking TRS-80 Model 1 monitor I snagged for $3
> > but I figure the principles are the same regardless.
>
> True.
> At least in USA, the TRS80 Model1 monitor is a slightly modified RCA TV
> set.  One of that specific model was visible in the background
> occasionally on Al Bundy's kitchen counter in "Married With Children"
>
> > after many years. I've done no tests yet, but I have Sam's Facts for the
> > model 1, and they provide a troubleshooting guide for the monitor and say
>
> In which case, the ancestral RCA information probably doesn't give you
> any additional help.
>
>
> Until you succeed in fixing it, the TRS80 Model1 will work just fine with
> a generic USA RS170 monitor, if you make an appropriate DIN to video
> cable, or open the model1 and tap the signal.
>


From als at thangorodrim.de  Sat Jun 30 20:04:50 2012
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 03:04:50 +0200
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/?
 adaptor
In-Reply-To: <87F725A5-8FA9-4595-93EB-00882747A5B8@gmail.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <87F725A5-8FA9-4595-93EB-00882747A5B8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120701010450.GA6485@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 06:38:01PM +0100, Mark Benson wrote:
> 
> On 29 Jun 2012, at 07:38, Tothwolf wrote:
> 
> > I work with a lot of embedded boards these days. Design wise, I rather like the Raspberry Pi.
> 
> It is a nice piece of kit, especially at the price point. For embedded or
> semi-embedded work it's really nice, my only gripes are the SD IO speed is
> terrible, and the 5V power input is via a USB Micro connector not a 2-pole
> barrel connector which would have been more 'standard'.

Wrong, the Micro-USB connector is actually a standard (and not just 'standard'
as the barrel connector). So, a device gets powered via Micro-USB connector?
Fine, I can grab a random wallwart with Micro-USB connector and it will work.
I can even order a random dirt cheap wallwart from $RANDOM_CHINESE_SUPPLIER
and it will work. I can even just connect it to the nearest computer and it
will work. 

Micro-USB is a fully defined standard:
 - the connector is standard, no surprises
 - pin configuration, voltages and power limits are standard

Compared to a device powered via a barrel connector:
 - which diameter?
 - which polarity?
 - or maybe it wants AC?
 - which voltage?
 - how much power?

Chances are, I don't have a suitable wallwart in my pile of wallwarts for
that.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Sat Jun 30 20:49:16 2012
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 21:49:16 -0400
Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <4FEF1CF1.22683.1A66750@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>
 <4FEF0D0F.31702.1685906@cclist.sydex.com>
 <52D55E10-BD81-403B-B93B-13FADBE3B5DA@hack.net>
 <4FEF1CF1.22683.1A66750@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <E3685511-27E1-470C-91AF-1346EF569462@gmail.com>

On Jun 30, 2012, at 18:36, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 30 Jun 2012 at 16:37, Ryan Brooks wrote:
> 
>> Can you get into open firmware as others have suggested?
> 
> Well, you have me there.  I didn't think that NuBus Macs had open 
> firmware.

They do not. My recollection is that the early Power Macs were essentially a port of their corresponding Quadra architectures (610, 650 and 800) to PowerPC, with relatively little modification save a bus adaptor.

> At any rate Cmd+option+O+F is completely ignored.  But if 
> there's Open Firmware on that machine, I'd appreciate knowing how to 
> get to it.

Out of luck in that respect, unfortunately.

>> And this is different than a PC motherboard how?      Let me
>> (reliably) reflow that BGA that I can buy where?   Data sheet?
> 
> I can find datasheets for most PC chipsets of the 6100's vintage 
> (1994) and at least know what signals to look for.  On the Apple, not 
> so much.  I don't replace BGAs (but I know people who do) but I have 
> replaced QFPs without serious issues--and the ones on the 6100 aren't 
> particularly fine-pitch, so they should be a walk in the park to 
> change.
> 
> So where are the Apple datasheets on the 4 largish 124-pin QFPs on 
> the 6100?  Surely, Apple can't be worried about IP on a nearly 20 
> year old design...

Finding someone who knows where to dig up that data is a significant challenge. I'm given to understand that the internal chips weren't always even all that well documented; I have a document dump on the SWIM 2 and 3 chips that in places are little more than scrawled notes. Al may have some insight.



- Dave


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Jun 30 21:13:34 2012
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 22:13:34 -0400
Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <4FEF1CF1.22683.1A66750@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <4FEF0D0F.31702.1685906@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <52D55E10-BD81-403B-B93B-13FADBE3B5DA@hack.net>
 <4FEF1CF1.22683.1A66750@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4FEFB24E.1080206@telegraphics.com.au>

On 30/06/12 6:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 30 Jun 2012 at 16:37, Ryan Brooks wrote:
>
>> Normally, it would make a bong sound each reboot, but if it is getting
>> the the booting screen, it is not receiving the keypress/not acting on
>> it.   You sure on the C-O+P+R key combo?
>
> With cmd+option+p+r pressed, the screen cycles between grey and
> black.  When released, the "Welcome to Macintosh" boot screen comes
> up.  But nothing happens, otherwise--the speaker is still silent.
>
>> Can you get into open firmware as others have suggested?
>
> Well, you have me there.  I didn't think that NuBus Macs had open
> firmware.

They don't. It arrived with New World Macs.

--Toby


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Jun 30 22:11:18 2012
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 20:11:18 -0700
Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <E3685511-27E1-470C-91AF-1346EF569462@gmail.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>
 <4FEF0D0F.31702.1685906@cclist.sydex.com>
 <52D55E10-BD81-403B-B93B-13FADBE3B5DA@hack.net>
 <4FEF1CF1.22683.1A66750@cclist.sydex.com>
 <E3685511-27E1-470C-91AF-1346EF569462@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FEFBFD6.4020100@bitsavers.org>

On 6/30/12 6:49 PM, David Riley wrote:
> I'm given to understand that the internal chips weren't always even all that well documented; I have a document dump on the SWIM 2 and 3 chips that in places are little more than scrawled notes. Al may have some insight.
>



The four ASICs in the first generation PPC was the HMC which handles DRAM and Cache, AMIC, which interfaces to the I/O devices, two data
path parts which also generates cycle stealing video, and the optional NuBus controller, which isn't on the 6100. There are several 8k
sound buffers in AMIC which are serially clocked to AWACS (pn 343S0140), which is the sound codec chip.
It was also the first 16 bit sound part Apple used. AWACS was made by Crystal Semiconductor.
Bit clock is pin 42, sync is pin 43 and data in is pin 44. Headphone out L,R,Common pins 27,25,28 Speaker out L,R,Common pins 29,31,30



From n0body.h0me at inbox.com  Sat Jun 30 23:24:31 2012
From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 20:24:31 -0800
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/?
 adaptor
In-Reply-To: <20120701010450.GA6485@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.deb.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <201206281222.iaa00280@sparkle.rodents-montreal.org>
 <m1sjywu-000j4gc@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.ga23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <4fea9127.5020403@neurotica.com>
 <87f725a5-8fa9-4595-93eb-00882747a5b8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5157DBCBF50.000005C7n0body.h0me@inbox.com>

 
> Wrong, the Micro-USB connector is actually a standard (and not just
> 'standard'
> as the barrel connector). So, a device gets powered via Micro-USB
> connector?
> Fine, I can grab a random wallwart with Micro-USB connector and it will
> work.
> I can even order a random dirt cheap wallwart from
> $RANDOM_CHINESE_SUPPLIER
> and it will work. I can even just connect it to the nearest computer and
> it
> will work.
> 
> Micro-USB is a fully defined standard:
>  - the connector is standard, no surprises
>  - pin configuration, voltages and power limits are standard
> 
> Compared to a device powered via a barrel connector:
>  - which diameter?
>  - which polarity?
>  - or maybe it wants AC?
>  - which voltage?
>  - how much power?
> 
> Chances are, I don't have a suitable wallwart in my pile of wallwarts for
> that.
> 
> Kind regards,
>            Alex.

Yes, these are all valid arguments for using micro-USB.
I think the traditionalists here are chafing a bit as 
most of the SBC's produced up to this point have
been powered via a 'coaxial' power plug (with all of
the issues you mentioned).

On most of these boards, the connectors could be easily
be removed and replaced with something else.  Micro-USB
(and similar) plugs OTOH, are typically surface-mount, 
hence difficult (without hot air and a steady hand)
to replace, and (in my experience) quite fragile.

But this obscures the fact that the Raspberry Pi is
not really an SBC in the idiom of the traditional eval 
board (that's not it's original purpose).  "Cheap 'n 
dirty" was the first item on its requirements list,
and Micro-USB fits that requirement quite nicely.

. . . . just don't apply too much flexure to the 
connector made by that $RANDOM_CHINESE_SUPPLIER.

Just my $0.02


Jeff

____________________________________________________________
FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!
Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth





From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Jun 30 23:50:21 2012
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 21:50:21 -0700
Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <4FEFBFD6.4020100@bitsavers.org>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>,
 <E3685511-27E1-470C-91AF-1346EF569462@gmail.com>,
 <4FEFBFD6.4020100@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4FEF749D.6250.2FCDEE2@cclist.sydex.com>

On 30 Jun 2012 at 20:11, Al Kossow wrote:

> Apple used. AWACS was made by Crystal Semiconductor. Bit clock is pin
> 42, sync is pin 43 and data in is pin 44. Headphone out L,R,Common
> pins 27,25,28 Speaker out L,R,Common pins 29,31,30

Is that the 44 pin PLCC labeled CS4217-KL with the Crystal logo on 
it?  I was wondering about it--a datasheet didn't turn up, but I 
easily found datasheets for the CS4216 and CS4218, whose pinouts seem 
to be a country mile from the 4217.

If so, it's a start and I may be able to figure something out from 
that.

--Chuck



From george.rachor at gmail.com  Sat Jun 30 05:35:19 2012
From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 03:35:19 -0700
Subject: Powermac G5 won't start
In-Reply-To: <8A3217E6-B672-4386-95D9-C5A26944ABC5@rachors.com>
References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <m1SjyWU-000J4gC@p850ug1>
 <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>
 <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1206290124050.3383@brioche.invalid.domain>
 <16446803.8622.1340960649971.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vecuf6>
 <7329233783304466964@unknownmsgid>
 <421D086D-B2E9-4FC1-9A97-336E3E86C452@rachors.com>
 <8A3217E6-B672-4386-95D9-C5A26944ABC5@rachors.com>
Message-ID: <17C5DA1D-B834-447C-8CF9-2E2521314187@gmail.com>

Check that?.

After a few minutes plugged in.. (Battery still remove) we have gone back to the original systems.  led flashes on while power button is depressed, The fans start briefly then slow back down.  I hear the disk drive start but no other activity?

Back to square one?

George



On Jun 30, 2012, at 1:33 AM, George Rachor wrote:

> Well I left the unit unplugged and the battery removed for about 20 hours.
> 
> The symptom has now changed.
> -- The battery is still out.
> 1.	I still hear the relays click when plugging in power.
> 2.	Now there is no activity at all when pressing the front panel power switch.
> 
> 
> Starting to sound like power supply?
> 
> 
> George
> 
> george at rachors.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 29, 2012, at 3:47 AM, George Rachor wrote:
> 
>> Thanks Mark!
>> 
>> George
>> 
>> george at rachors.com
>> 
>> On Jun 29, 2012, at 2:11 AM, Mark Benson wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> This is a generic fixit for PowerPC Macs but always worth a try:
>>> 
>>> - Unplug the unit from the mains.
>>> - Remove the NVRAM battery
>>> - Leave to stand for *at least* 2-3 hours
>>> - Power up
>>> 
>>> The issue is the NVRAM (referred to as PRAM on a Mac just to be
>>> contrary) becomes corrupt as the battery runs down. If the machine has
>>> been stood unused for a long time it may have this aforementioned
>>> amnesia.
>>> 
>>> I have, however, heard a lot of sorry tales of PowerMac G5s suffering
>>> all manner of weird problems with PSUs, leaking liquid coolers and
>>> more. It's worth thoroughly checking the whole system over before
>>> proceeding.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Mark Benson
>>> 
>>> http://markbenson.org/blog
>>> http://twitter.com/MDBenson
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 




From axelsson at acc.umu.se  Sat Jun 30 09:53:37 2012
From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 16:53:37 +0200
Subject: Raspberry Pi and America,
In-Reply-To: <m1SkjTh-000J4WC@p850ug1>
References: <m1SkjTh-000J4WC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4FEF12F1.3060301@acc.umu.se>

Tony Duell skrev 2012-06-30 00:15:
>> Tony *might* approve if the published documentation included detailed
>> instructions on how to mine your own copper ore, smelt it, build a
>> silicon refinery, fabricate your own CPU, spin glass fibre and
>> synthesize resin and then manufacture your own circuit board.
>>
>> But I do emphasize the "might" here...
> Actually, I'd be very likely to approve of it if :
>
> It came complete, that is to say I could just plug it in and go without
> having to pay to download and print manuals, download the OS, etc

Which operating system should it come preloaded with then? Debian 
?squeeze?, Arch Linux ARM or QtonPi from their download page. Or maybe 
some of the ten OS:es mentioned on http://elinux.org/RPi_Distributions...
To have to pay for a preloaded OS (in this case the media) for every 
RasPi I'll buy is only stupid. I selected a suitable size of SD-card and 
it took me 10 minutes to download an image and write it to the card.
If you can't download and write the card yourself or with a friends help 
then there is / will be preloaded cards to buy from RS and Farnell as well.
A printed "Raspberry Pi users guide" is almost redy, they take preorders 
now. Better to buy one single book than one with each Pi. I can see them 
in a number of places at home. Media player behind the TV, controller 
for my GPS-enabled metal detector I plan to build, emulating classic 
computers, working as a serial terminal for my mini computers, signal 
generator in the lab (just load audacity)... and so on.
A lot information exists on the web in the wiki and on discussion 
groups. A little searching and it will pop up. As well as the source of 
the OS except the binary drivers for the graphics.

Schematics : 
http://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Raspberry-Pi-Schematics-R1.0.pdf

> The docuemtnation let me figure out how to use the thing.
>
> Given that, I might actualyl buy one.
>
> A couple of serious questions :
>
> 1) AS has been confiremd the data sheet on the main 'chip' doesn't
> include docuemtnation on certain parts of it (video-related?). Are those
> parts simply not used by the standard linux for the Rpi, or are the
> drives supplied as binary-only, or what?

There are binary only drivers for the GPU. "The GPU provides Open GL ES 
2.0, hardware-accelerated OpenVG, and 1080p30 H.264 high-profile decode."
Haven't done any graphics programming myself so I'm only quoting the FAQ.

> 2) I understnad the's some kind of GPIO/user port. How many lines, are
> they individually selectable for direction? Can this be easilly used from
> C (I assuem there's a C vompiler included with the OS).

17 GPIO lines, individually selectable direction and many with secondary 
functions as UART, SPI, PWM, I2C...
More GPIO pins are available on other connectors. Only 3.3V levels, no 
5V tolerant I/O. But 3.3V and 5V is available on the GPIO connector.
http://elinux.org/RPi_Low-level_peripherals#General_Purpose_Input.2FOutput_.28GPIO.29
Example code for the GPIO port is available in C, Python, shell script 
and Perl on the above link.
Excerpt from the FAQ : "Any language which will compile for ARMv6 can be 
used with the Raspberry Pi, though; so you?re not limited to using Python."

> -tony
>

Only thing that have stopped me from playing around with my two PI:s is 
the lack of a HDMI-cable... will fetch one tonight. :-)

/G?ran