From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 1 00:22:57 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 22:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <4FEFB24E.1080206@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Jun 30, 12 10:13:34 pm" Message-ID: <201207010522.q615MvUW12779654@floodgap.com> > > > Can you get into open firmware as others have suggested? > > > > Well, you have me there. I didn't think that NuBus Macs had open > > firmware. > > They don't. It arrived with New World Macs. Actually, it started with the beige PCI Macs, which were Old World. However, New World OpenFirmware is considerably less buggy. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you had any brains at all, you'd be dangerous. -------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 1 00:26:21 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 22:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <8A3217E6-B672-4386-95D9-C5A26944ABC5@rachors.com> from George Rachor at "Jun 30, 12 01:33:30 am" Message-ID: <201207010526.q615QL4O14352554@floodgap.com> > Starting to sound like power supply? Yup. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The world is not enough. --------------------------------------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 1 01:17:45 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 23:17:45 -0700 Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <4FEF749D.6250.2FCDEE2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, , <4FEFBFD6.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4FEF749D.6250.2FCDEE2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FEFEB89.90102@bitsavers.org> On 6/30/12 9:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Jun 2012 at 20:11, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Apple used. AWACS was made by Crystal Semiconductor. Bit clock is pin >> 42, sync is pin 43 and data in is pin 44. Headphone out L,R,Common >> pins 27,25,28 Speaker out L,R,Common pins 29,31,30 > > Is that the 44 pin PLCC labeled CS4217-KL with the Crystal logo on > it? I was wondering about it--a datasheet didn't turn up, but I > easily found datasheets for the CS4216 and CS4218, whose pinouts seem > to be a country mile from the 4217. > looks like there are some on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-CRYSTAL-CS4217-KL-EP-IC-16-BIT-MULTIMEIDA-STEREO-AUDIO-CODED-22-PIN-PLCC-/140606850353 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 01:52:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2012 23:52:02 -0700 Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <4FEFEB89.90102@bitsavers.org> References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FEF749D.6250.2FCDEE2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEFEB89.90102@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FEF9122.24419.36C46A9@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jun 2012 at 23:17, Al Kossow wrote: > looks like there are some on ebay > http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-CRYSTAL-CS4217-KL-EP-IC-16-BIT-MULTIMEIDA-ST > EREO-AUDIO-CODED-22-PIN-PLCC-/140606850353 I'll keep that in mind if some 'scope work shows that to be the problem. Thanks, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jul 1 04:07:15 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 02:07:15 -0700 Subject: Break-ins In-Reply-To: References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4FF01343.8030406@brouhaha.com> Paul Anderson wrote: > I was once told that locks were made to keep honest people out. If > someone wants in bad enough, they will get it.Thermite, anyone? Doesn't take anything near that fancy. I needed a diskus-style padlock removed recently. (Yes, it was my own lock, protecting my own stuff, and stupidly I lost the key.) Someone cut it off for me using a high-speed cut-off tool that looked similar to a Harbor Freight #68523, and cut through the whole central diameter of the lock in under 15 seconds. Eric From jws at jwsss.com Sun Jul 1 05:10:36 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 03:10:36 -0700 Subject: Break-ins In-Reply-To: <4FF01343.8030406@brouhaha.com> References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com> <4FF01343.8030406@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FF0221C.1030000@jwsss.com> On 7/1/2012 2:07 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > high-speed cut-off tool that looked similar to a Harbor Freight > #68523, and cut through the whole central diameter of the lock in > under 15 seconds Even though it's fake, watch Storage Wars. for a demo. Doesn't matter if it is the shank of a padlock or a disk it makes quick work of the lock. Not quiet though. The storage lockers are opened and inventoried by the storage mgmt companies, by the way, to determine that all contents can be sold, and they don't cut off locks like they patched together in the silly show(s). Also at the storage yard I use there is a fairly petite girl who wields a mean bolt cutter for most locks. Mini Mobile has a patented lock system that won't yield to the cutoff blade w/o taking out a portion of the container. If you implemented it in better grade steel than they do, you might make something that would require cutting thru the structure, as the lock would be there to stay. It is designed for the disk locks and has a hardened steel surround the whole thing lives in. You put in the disk lock in a cylinder open, lock it and pull the key. You'd have to cut the armor as well as the lock. Jim From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Jul 1 08:27:29 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:27:29 -0400 Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <201207010522.q615MvUW12779654@floodgap.com> References: <201207010522.q615MvUW12779654@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FF05041.8030207@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/07/12 1:22 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> Can you get into open firmware as others have suggested? >>> >>> Well, you have me there. I didn't think that NuBus Macs had open >>> firmware. >> >> They don't. It arrived with New World Macs. > > Actually, it started with the beige PCI Macs, which were Old World. However, > New World OpenFirmware is considerably less buggy. > Yeah I was trying to think of exceptions, forgot about those platypi. --Toby From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 1 09:07:30 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 07:07:30 -0700 Subject: Break-ins In-Reply-To: References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>, Message-ID: > Subject: Re: Break-ins > From: useddec at gmail.com > > I was once told that locks were made to keep honest people out. If > someone wants in bad enough, they will get it.Thermite, anyone? > > > On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > Got a bit of a scare this week. I have most of my equipment stored and I received a call indicating > > that the lock on one of my units was missing. The management put a "temporary" lock on the unit > > until I could get down and survey what was going on (and put a new lock on it). > > > > I went down this morning and there in front of the door to my unit was my lock that had been cut off > > (I suspect with bolt cutters). Fortunately, there doesn't appear to be any mischief (other than having > > to replace the lock). I suspect that someone was confused (and probably lost the key to their lock) > > and opened my unit. When they saw what was in it they moved on. The reason that I suspect this > > was that nothing was disturbed and there are several obvious items near the front that would've probably > > gone missing if theft was the motivation. > > > > I put a new high security lock in place of the old padlock and will probably replace my other padlocks > > with high security locks to prevent this sort of thing in the future. > > > > TTFN - Guy > Hi My friend had one of the nice locks. Instead they just cut the bold bar on the latch. If these places really cared, they'd put a checking and alarm wire on each unit. Each person would get a unique address for the gate that would alarm if another unit was opened other than the one/ones asigned to that gate number. Dwight From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 09:33:51 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 15:33:51 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30 June 2012 19:56, Tony Duell wrote: > > True. But a prodcut I can't use is surely a total waste of money. > > IMHO documentation is not an option, it's essential. If you can't work > out how to use something, it's *(by defintion) useless. [...] To answer those of your points that I feel that I usefully can: Documentation - yes, it does have some. It's online, i.e., on the WWW. This is the 21st century; that is how things are done now. Yes, it does at the moment expect you to have a PC and Web access already. This is not, *at this stage*, a stand-alone computer. This is the early, developers/hackers version of the product. AIUI, there will subsequently be a more polished, complete release, in a case, with a finished, optimised OS and so on. OTOH, for embedded projects and the like, this version is more suitable as you don't have to buy all the bits. As for why not to use a PC: * New PCs are expensive * PCs are elaborate with many moving parts & require expert maintenance * PCs do not tolerate stressful environments well * PCs have active cooling - spinning fans to chop little fingers, mains voltages that are dangerous, slots that could have foreign bodies inserted into them, etc. * PCs are large and bulky * Because of their bulk and fragility, and the need for expertise to refurbish them, old PCs are not easily obtained and shipped to where children might readily have access to them. * PCs require lots of electricity to run * Some of the complexity issues could be solved by a single-disk Linux distro that provided a range of simple tools, but the vastly heterogenous nature of PC hardware means this is hard to implement. * Also, Linux scares off nontechnical users who only know Windows; this is less of a problem with a computer that cannot run Windows at all. Openness: I have not called it open. Others may have. There are various OSs available for it - a range of Linux distros and RISC OS. Linux is FOSS; RISC OS is not, it is shared source. The source is obtainable and can be modified as you please, but all copyrights must be assigned to Castle Technology and resale is prohibited without an (inexpensive) commercial redistributors' licence. Some of the /drivers/ for Linux are not FOSS, notably the graphics driver; they are closed-source, proprietary, but freeware. You still need the graphics driver for console mode, so it is not possible to build a 100% GNU FOSS OS image for it yet. Someone may reverse-engineer a console-mode-only kernel driver, I guess, but this is a graphical computer. If you want text-mode-only, there are cheaper devices out there - for instance, this: http://www.electronics-lab.com/blog/?p=19068 [[ Freescale Announces $13 ARM Cortex-M0+ Microcontroller Board The Kinetis L Microcontroller board from Freescale. The board features a Cortex-M0+ ARM processor, a suspiciously familiar minty-fresh board silhouette, and headers that remind me of summers in Ivrea. From EDA360: [via] There are two major reasons for reading this blog post: A 32-bit microcontroller that sells for as little as $0.49 in 10K quantities and consumes 50?A/MHz A $12.95 development board to be available late in September These are two of the salient attributes of the Freescale Kinetis L microcontroller, previewed at Design West in San Jose back in March and now announced at the Freescale Technology Forum in San Antonia with alpha samples shipping. The target for this product is the vast sea of products and applications that currently incorporate 8- and 16-bit microcontrollers?mainly for reasons of legacy code, legacy familiarity, and cost. It will take a compelling product to hurdle these barriers and the low prices for the Kinetis L silicon and development board will help to jump those hurdles. ]] Hardware needed for embedded use: * a PSU (either a wall-wart with a microUSB connector, or a powered USB hub with a USB-to-microUSB cable; * an SD card to boot off. The processor complex comprises a Broadcom SoC containing GPU, ARM core, sound, glue logic etc.; this is in a square package, the lower face of which interfaces with the main board and the upper face of which interfaces with a single RAM chip. So when you look at the board, all you can see is the RAM chip; the package with the SoC is beneath this and inaccessible. Waiting times: given a few months, as production ramps up, I am sure these will shrink to nothing. OS: AFAICS, Raspbian looks like far and away the best bet, but it's not mature or ready yet. Personally, I'd wait for it - but apart from as a very cheap RISC OS machine, I have no use for one myself. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 09:35:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 07:35:47 -0700 Subject: Break-ins In-Reply-To: <4FEF1D4B.17578.1A7C579@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>, , <4FEF1D4B.17578.1A7C579@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FEFFDD3.22983.20A4C0@cclist.sydex.com> One could go old-school on the problem. Weld up a piece of iron water pipe, such that one end is capped and there's a slot cut near the top end to fit over the staple on the latch. The lock is placed inside of the pipe and fastened through the staple as normal. If done correctly, it's extremely difficult to get to the lock or latch with anything but a key as the pipe restricts access to the lock as well as the staple. You landlord may not like that, however--but I've seen setups like this all over the place here on timberland gates. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jul 1 09:49:39 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 08:49:39 -0600 Subject: Philips P2701E Terminal - Configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger" writes: > does anyone have a hint how to configure a Philips P2701E serial text > terminal. I found zero Information in the net.... Are these some kind of > rebadged equipment? Given how weird it sounds, pictures would help. Usually you can identify a rebadge quicker from a picture than you can from the rebadged model number. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Jul 1 10:28:33 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 17:28:33 +0200 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV Message-ID: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi, I'm doing a circuit diagram of a SA1100 Disc Controller built with a Z80 CPU. On the controller, I have two blue devices lables "Z80 CLK DRV" on the board, and HPI-1014-782 on the device itself. the "-782" is the date of production most likely. I have no idea about the pinout of those devices nor do I know where to finde datasheets to make a component for my CAD software. Heare you'll find a picture of such devices I mean (different board, but same devices) http://www.picfront.org/d/8Ik2 Any hints of what this is, how the pinout is, and where I can find a functional description of this device would be welcomed. Greetings, Oliver From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Jul 1 10:30:37 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 17:30:37 +0200 Subject: Philips P2701E Terminal - Configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005d01cd579e$7ab146a0$7013d3e0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger > Verzonden: zaterdag 30 juni 2012 19:56 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Philips P2701E Terminal - Configuration > > Hi all, > > does anyone have a hint how to configure a Philips P2701E serial text terminal. I > found zero Information in the net.... Are these some kind of rebadged > equipment? > > Regards, > Wolfgang Hi Wolfgang, The terminals are sold by Philips Data Systems Apeldoorn. On this site (in Dutch) you can get in contact with former employees from Philips Apeldoorn.. http://www.vgp-apeldoorn.nl/ If you can read Dutch this site will tell you a bit of the history of Philips Data Systems. http://www.intact-reunies.nl/nostalgie/23.html?showall=1 Maybe it will help you any further. -Rik From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Jul 1 10:35:05 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 17:35:05 +0200 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20120701173505.Horde.jaQ3MqQd9PdP8G4p4ZH4rZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > http://www.picfront.org/d/8Ik2 Pinout seems to be: 1 VCC 2 ?NC? 3 input 4 ?NC? 5 GND 6 output I also have found a Z8000-Schematic where the symbols is: |'. _____ ----o| '>------------------<_____| 3|.' 6 CLOCK_A Z80A DRVR From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 11:14:04 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:14:04 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120701173505.Horde.jaQ3MqQd9PdP8G4p4ZH4rZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <20120701173505.Horde.jaQ3MqQd9PdP8G4p4ZH4rZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> Here's an HP description from http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/9000_dio/98642_HP- DIO_Four_Channel_Mux_ERD_Sep84.pdf (PDF page 24) "The PHI signal is output from the Z80 clock driver circuitry, which is a schottky clamped circuit using a PNP-NPN transistor (push- pull) pair to obtain the required current and waveform to drive the Z80 devices. " Probably very similar to the Z80 clock driver shown here: http://www.80bus.co.uk/pages/gemini/documentation/GM813_Circuit.pdf --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 11:21:41 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:21:41 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120701173505.Horde.jaQ3MqQd9PdP8G4p4ZH4rZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <20120701173505.Horde.jaQ3MqQd9PdP8G4p4ZH4rZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4FF016A5.20755.81970C@cclist.sydex.com> This, from Zilog, would seem to cinch the question of what's in that hybrid: http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/35641.pdf PDF page 149, figure 48. Looks to be the same as on the Gemini board. --Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Jul 1 11:37:22 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 18:37:22 +0200 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <20120701173505.Horde.jaQ3MqQd9PdP8G4p4ZH4rZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > "The PHI signal is output from the Z80 clock driver circuitry, > which is a schottky clamped circuit using a PNP-NPN transistor (push- > pull) pair to obtain the required current and waveform to drive the > Z80 devices. " This sounds right, yeah > Probably very similar to the Z80 clock driver shown here: > > http://www.80bus.co.uk/pages/gemini/documentation/GM813_Circuit.pdf Where exactly? Was not able to find it... From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 11:58:51 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 09:58:51 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2012 at 18:37, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > Probably very similar to the Z80 clock driver shown here: > > > > http://www.80bus.co.uk/pages/gemini/documentation/GM813_Circuit.pdf > > Where exactly? Was not able to find it... Done in discretes--the output of IC37e to TP4 at the Z80A is probably very close to what's under the blue goo on that hybrid chip. It should be fairly simple to verify. The input to the clock driver should show about 220 ohms to the Vcc connection and about 710 ohms to the ground connection. I suspect that HP didn't deviate too far from the recommended Zilog circuit. --Chuck From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 12:19:16 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 19:19:16 +0200 Subject: Philips P2701E Terminal - Configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > does anyone have a hint how to configure a Philips P2701E serial text > terminal. I found zero Information in the net.... Are these some kind of > rebadged equipment? Some Philips terminals are rebadged Hazeltines. Does it look like the picture on page 2 of this manual: http://p800.wikispaces.com/file/view/p800m_sec2_prt3.pdf? If you ever decide to get rid of it, and if you're not too far from the Netherlands, please let me know, I have some old Philips minicomputers and would love to have a terminal with a Philips badge to go with it. Cheers, Camiel. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Jul 1 15:10:05 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 22:10:05 +0200 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > It should be fairly simple to verify. The input to the clock driver > should show about 220 ohms to the Vcc connection and about 710 ohms > to the ground connection. The Input is showing 330 Ohm to GND and 327 Ohm to VCC. The Output has no measurable Ohm, neiter to VCC, nor to GND. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 14:42:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:42:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FEF58B3.2060003@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 30, 12 03:51:15 pm Message-ID: [SPI .vs. I2C] > I use both regularly. SPI is inferior in some ways, but superior in I did say 'IMHO' :-). > others. I personally prefer I2C, but there are situation in which SPI > is a better choice. It is MUCH faster (I2C tops out at 400KHz, I've One bvious tiem to use SPI is if the chip you want only has an SPI interfce :-). > seen SPI up in the several-MHz range), and I2C's transfer size is fixed True. It depends -- a lot -- on what uou are using it for. Most of the time I use I2C to transfer small amounts of data to display drivers, low-speed DACs, etc. It weorks fine for that. I ssem to rememebr that SD cards implement a form of SPI. In which case you have to use SPI for that. > at eight bits, while SPI can transfer arbitrary word widths. (this is > handy for, say, ADCs and DACs). Hmm.. I am nto convinced. Any microprocesosr/controller is goinf to have a 'natural' word size (8 bits, 16 bits, etc). The hardware SPI interface is goign to trasnfer in chunks of that size -- you write a byte, or whatever to a particualr I/O register and it sends it (or part of it). If you bit-bang it, you will be shifitng the data in one of the procesor registers, again of a definted size. So what I am sayign is that if you have an 8 bit processor and want to talk to a 12 bit DAC, you are essnetially goign to ahve ot load 2 bytes into the SPI interface. It may only send 4 bits of one of said bytes, of course. That;'s no better or worse than having to send 2 bytes to an I2C interface . > > I2C, however, uses in-band addressing so it saves board space and I/O > pins over SPI. YEs, that;'s the main reason I think it's more elegant. The separate chip selects ot each SPI device are somethign fo a pain. > So, while I personally prefer I2C, I believe it is incorrect to > consider SPI to be inferior, since it they both have their strengths and > weaknesses. The industry agrees, as both have been around for decades > and are still considered de-facto standards for local low-speed > communications. (I first used I2C on a Philips 87C751 microcontroller on > a gov't related project in 1991, and it was well-established even then!) About when I was using it to talk to Philips teletext ICs, etc :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 14:45:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:45:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FEEFED1.8299.130B84D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 30, 12 01:27:45 pm Message-ID: > Indeed, let's see you access an SDHC card using I2C at, say, 20MHz. And now let me see you access a Philips SAA5243 teletext IC (alos useful for a 40*25 text video display) using SPI at any speed :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 14:48:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:48:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Break-ins In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Jun 30, 12 01:38:56 pm Message-ID: > What do you consider a "high security lock"? Abloy :-) More seriously, a high secruity lock will have hardened stteel parts so it can't be sawn or drilled (easily). It will be dififcult to pick, either due to the design (the Abloy sidebar mechansim) or anti-picking fetures. In the case of a padlock, there will be limited spare cound the chackle so you can't get a crowbar in. Any lock can be picked, any material can be cut or ground through. THe idea is to make 'chummy' desicde that some other building is an easier target :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 14:52:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:52:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <4FEF0D0F.31702.1685906@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 30, 12 02:28:31 pm Message-ID: > Okay, so if it's a capacitor, is it likely to be one of the SMT cans > or one of the rectangular SMT tantalums? What area of the board > (quadrant) is most likely to have the failing component? Can you > furnish any component designators? > > Apple service guides won't even tell you what the various LSI chips > do, much less their pinouts or specifications. The "if it doesn't > work, thow it away" mentality of Apple that I love so much... > I'vm supposed ot be the one who moans that serice manuals are useless now, that schematics don't exist and that board-swapping is evil. Are you after my job :-) Mroe seriosuly, can you name a present-day computer where the manufactuers do supply schemmaitcs, dater on ASCIs, and the like? I have no love whatesocer of Apple products, but they are no worse (or better) than anyone else in this respect. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 14:57:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:57:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <6B0C9DDA9E454486BA7318D4ACD08872@G4UGMT41> from "Dave" at Jun 30, 12 10:29:52 pm Message-ID: > > In the UK RS will sell you all the bits needed, and when you order it lists > a few but I can't remember if it included everything. I ordered an SD Card > with OS installed. I can't remember if I was offered the USB keyboard but I > did order the 4gb card with OS installed. Right.,.. Having looked on the web a bit more, I've now seen the schemaitc and the data sheet on most of the main IC ('SoC') o nthe Rpi. And I've read that a printed user manual is going to be available. I think the Rpi was released before it was ready. When it first came out there was no schematic. There was no preloaded SD card avaialable that I could find. And so on. Things have chenaged, I wil lagree, but IMHO this should all have been avaiable when the product was anounced. It also seems to still be the case that demand exceeds supply and that uou can;t just go and get one. This is a major turn-off for me. One thign that still seems ot be missing (but it appears people are workign on it) are routines ot talke to the GPIO fetures. I would have expected a library with routines to send/receive data to I2C nad SPI peripherals, etc. One other quesiton. Is there a linux devief driver for the 'UART'? Can you acess it as /dev/tty1 or wahtever? Heck, can you ru nthis thing with a serial termain as a console? :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 15:07:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 21:07:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Jul 1, 12 10:32:45 am Message-ID: > > Hi Guys, > > I posted this note on Vintage Computer Forums, and thought I'd see if > anyone could help here too. > > T actually an acceptable looking TRS-80 Model 1 monitor I snagged for $3 > but I figure the principles are the same regardless. Actually ,the original Model 1 monitor is somewhat unonventional. There were 2 versiosn of the M1 montiro sold in the UK. The origianl one has a white scren and 2 knobs and the video input cable in a horizotnal row at hte bottom right. The knobs are 'B' (brightness) and 'C' (contrast). The cable comes through a hole convenientyl labeleld 'V' for video, buit iot was origianlly (see below) a volume control The later version, which I know nothing about, still has a white CRT, but with a green filter over the entire front of the unit. The controls are still to thew right of the CRT, but about halfway down the case, not at the bottom. OK, back to the origianl one, which I do know something about. It's actually based on an RCA mains-powered portable TV. That's the thing that had a volume cotnrol. The origninl TV was 115V only and had a live chassis (the chassis was connected to one side of the mains). The modification consisitend of not fittign the tuner, IF strip or audio circuitry (much of that was on a plug-in PCB, forutnately). That PCB was replaced by a PCB with an optoisolator circuit on it so that the video inptu (and thus the comptuer) could be earthed. One oddity was that the input suide of the optoisolator needed a 5V power supply, this came from the computer. Now, that TV chassis was, as I mentioend, 115V only. To use it in 230V countries, there was a mains tranformer fitted inside the monitor. THis is an _isolating_ transofrmer, so the thign is no logner live-chassis. With the result that hte video input no longer neeeds an optoisolator. The PCB in palce of the IFs stirp, etc, is just a simple transisotr video ampliifier. > It's dead. No raster and no glow in the tube neck. The board does heat uo > though and there is that smell of old electronics being startled awake What heats up? > after many years. I've done no tests yet, but I have Sam's Facts for the > model 1, and they provide a troubleshooting guide for the monitor and say > what voltages should be on cetain components. I suspect something to do > with the AC power supply of maybe horizontal sweep. Some faulty power > transistor maybe? Quite possibly. > > What I would appreciate from anyone who knows, is a link to a page or doc > which explains how composite B/W monitors work. The Sam's document is great > from the perspective of troubleshooting detail but it does assume you know, > conceptually, just what's going on. I don't and I'd like to get some > understanding before I start poking around. I suspect it's asusmed you know how small monochrome TVs work :-). Seriosuly , a book on TV serviisng will explain much of waht you need. > > Incidently the SAM's fact PDF covers the 110V version while I have a 240V > one. There are some differences, one of which is there appears to be no > fuses in the AC circuits! The main difference is the isolating trasnformer, shwich si separately mounted i nthe case. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 15:38:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 21:38:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 1, 12 03:33:51 pm Message-ID: > > On 30 June 2012 19:56, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > True. But a prodcut I can't use is surely a total waste of money. > > > > IMHO documentation is not an option, it's essential. If you can't work > > out how to use something, it's *(by defintion) useless. > [...] > > To answer those of your points that I feel that I usefully can: > > Documentation - yes, it does have some. It's online, i.e., on the WWW. > This is the 21st century; that is how things are done now. Well, that ius nto a change for the better :-). However, it does appear as though a printed manual/tutorial wil leb avaialbe. How complete it is I don't know. Of course all tahts really needed is to have the startup, etc instructions as ap rinted manual and then to have all the other docuemtnation on the (supplied) SD card with the OS. Once you;'ve got it running you can read the programing, interfacing, etc docs. > > Yes, it does at the moment expect you to have a PC and Web access > already. This is not, *at this stage*, a stand-alone computer. This is AS I siad in another message, it appears it was (as ever) released before it's finished. Another related thing is that it was rumoured that it woudl ahve na I2S (Inter IC Sound) port. The current versions don;t, and from readong soem web pages I could alsomst think it was becuase they wired up the wrong pins on the SoC... > the early, developers/hackers version of the product. AIUI, there will > subsequently be a more polished, complete release, in a case, with a > finished, optimised OS and so on. > > OTOH, for embedded projects and the like, this version is more > suitable as you don't have to buy all the bits. Agreeed. I can see reasosn why yuo'd want the baesd board with no extras. IMHO both should be available -- ther board on its own amd a complete plug-n-go ssytem > > As for why not to use a PC: > * New PCs are expensive And you, and others, keep tellign me I can find them for free. Those amchiens, if they exist, would surely be OK for learing to program. You cnat' have it both ways ;-) > * PCs are elaborate with many moving parts & require expert maintenance Err,um... I keep on saying that I cma not clever enough to maintain a PC, you keep sayign I am. Please be consistent. > * PCs do not tolerate stressful environments well > * PCs have active cooling - spinning fans to chop little fingers, Have you ever man aged to chop a finger with a PC cooling fan? > mains voltages that are dangerous, slots that could have foreign > bodies inserted into them, etc. And the Rpi needs power, The SMPSU you might use to run it -- e.g. a mobile phone charger or soemthing -- has mains in it. > * PCs are large and bulky AS are the keyboard and more particularly the display needed for the Rpi > * Because of their bulk and fragility, and the need for expertise to > refurbish them, old PCs are not easily obtained and shipped to where > children might readily have access to them. hang on... Erarlier on you agreed you need web access to get the manuals for the Rpi. How do yuo propose doign that iwthotu a PC? > * PCs require lots of electricity to run As does the monitor for the Rpi. > * Some of the complexity issues could be solved by a single-disk Linux > distro that provided a range of simple tools, but the vastly > heterogenous nature of PC hardware means this is hard to implement. Come again? I am running oen of the oddest PC-based linux boxes around, and one thing I have not had nay problems with are the language compilers. > * Also, Linux scares off nontechnical users who only know Windows; > this is less of a problem with a computer that cannot run Windows at > all. Ah... Soldering is claimed to be difficult and puts off non-technical people. Bt this is not a problem for a computer that only comes as a pile of ICs ad a bnare board :-) > > > Openness: I have not called it open. Others may have. There are True, you didn't say it was 'open' bet plenty of others have. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 15:14:06 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 21:14:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Jul 1, 12 12:51:47 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Fred, > > Thanks. Yes, I do have another monitor I've been using for the Model 1 > (see http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/trs-80-model1.htm) , > but I'm slowly acquiring the full system. So it's not that I just want a > working system, I'm wanting a working Tandy badged system. > > >In which case, the ancestral RCA information probably doesn't give you > >any additional help. > > No, actually it might. The SAMS document, although it has a I don;t think it will be much help to you. Most service manuals -- for anything -- are written assumign you know the principles of that sort of device. A TV serivce manual is not going to explain how a voltage regualtor circuit, or the hroizontal output stage, or whatever sorks. Most of the time official service manuals for such things are little more than the schematic, the parts lists, and setup/alignment data (for whcih it's assumed you know how to use the test gear). > troubleshooting guide, seems to assume a knowledge of how a monitor > actually works. What I'm looking for is this generic higher level kind of > knowledge. I could just follow the troubleshooting guide through step by > step but my monitor is 240V, while the SAMS guide is for 110V. There are If this is the monitor that the SMAS book covers, and the one I am thinking of, it's actually a 110V monitor in all countries. It's jus that you and I have them with a stepdown transofemr on the mains input. > bound to be small differences. If I know, conceptually, what's suppose to > be happening, it will help. I might also stop me electrocuting myself! (-: That's more likely on he 110V model, which as I said was live chassis. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 1 15:42:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 21:42:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> from "Oliver Lehmann" at Jul 1, 12 05:28:33 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I'm doing a circuit diagram of a SA1100 Disc Controller built > with a Z80 CPU. On the controller, I have two blue devices > lables "Z80 CLK DRV" on the board, and HPI-1014-782 on the > device itself. the "-782" is the date of production most > likely. I have no idea about the pinout of those devices nor > do I know where to finde datasheets to make a component for > my CAD software. I cna't help wit hthe pinout, but I can guess the function. IIRC the clock input of the S80 is not actually TTL compatible, it needs to be pulled up to the 5V line.My guess is that thes are clock driver cirucits for this signal, they take a TTL level singal in and give out the genuine 5V signal for the Z80 clock input. How may pins do they have, and how many can you easily trace on the board? I am guessin there are at least power, ground, an output to the Z80 clcok pin and a TTL level input. Any others? -tony From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Jul 1 16:52:59 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 21:52:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Break-ins In-Reply-To: References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>, Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jul 2012, dwight elvey wrote: > If these places really cared, they'd put a checking and alarm > wire on each unit. Each person would get a unique address > for the gate that would alarm if another unit was opened > other than the one/ones asigned to that gate number. That's what the ezStorage place I had in MD did. They also had the employees live in an apartment on the property, so there was always a responsible party on the premises. Tried to find that here in Raleigh but no luck. Alexey From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 17:00:30 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 15:00:30 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4FF0660E.18765.1B7C905@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2012 at 22:10, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > It should be fairly simple to verify. The input to the clock driver > > should show about 220 ohms to the Vcc connection and about 710 ohms > > to the ground connection. > > The Input is showing 330 Ohm to GND and 327 Ohm to VCC. The Output has > no measurable Ohm, neiter to VCC, nor to GND. Unless there's an external pullup resistor, I can't imagine that this is an OC output or that the drive is capacitively coupled Did you try the diode (high voltage) setting on your ohmmeter? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 1 17:03:02 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 18:03:02 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> On 07/01/2012 03:42 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> others. I personally prefer I2C, but there are situation in which SPI >> is a better choice. It is MUCH faster (I2C tops out at 400KHz, I've > > One bvious tiem to use SPI is if the chip you want only has an SPI > interfce :-). Yes. More often than not, availability is the deciding factor. >> seen SPI up in the several-MHz range), and I2C's transfer size is fixed > > True. It depends -- a lot -- on what uou are using it for. Most of the time > I use I2C to transfer small amounts of data to display drivers, low-speed > DACs, etc. It weorks fine for that. Yup. > I ssem to rememebr that SD cards implement a form of SPI. In which case > you have to use SPI for that. They do. SD cards can also be accessed via a four-bit-wide, much faster interface that is proprietary and undocumented, or at least it used to be. I'm sure the specs are floating around in the wild by now, but the SPI mode works just fine, and is fast enough for many applications. >> at eight bits, while SPI can transfer arbitrary word widths. (this is >> handy for, say, ADCs and DACs). > > Hmm.. I am nto convinced. You're not convinced that SPI supports multiple word widths?? I can show you the datasheet of the microcontroller in my current design, where it's configurable, if you like. > Any microprocesosr/controller is goinf to have > a 'natural' word size (8 bits, 16 bits, etc). The hardware SPI interface > is goign to trasnfer in chunks of that size -- you write a byte, or > whatever to a particualr I/O register and it sends it (or part of it). If > you bit-bang it, you will be shifitng the data in one of the procesor > registers, again of a definted size. No, that's not at all how it works Tony. Or rather, that's perhaps a suboptimal way to look at it. My particular example is the Philips...erm, "NXP" (grumble) LPC2000-series ARM7 processors, which I'm using all over the place now. They are 32-bit processors, and their SPI controllers can be configured (by setting bits in very well-documented registers) for 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, or 16 bits per transfer. You write to the SPI data register, which is sixteen bits wide, and just treat the other bits as "don't cares". As a digression, normally, assuming programming in C, you'd place a "unsigned short" variable at the address of the SPI data register. (I'll have none of that uncivilized "uint32_t" bullshit that these kids have dreamed up...and, surprise, my code is VERY portable) > So what I am sayign is that if you have an 8 bit processor and want to > talk to a 12 bit DAC, you are essnetially goign to ahve ot load 2 bytes > into the SPI interface. It may only send 4 bits of one of said bytes, of > course. That;'s no better or worse than having to send 2 bytes to an I2C > interface . Yes, of course. But the transfer width of the SPI interface is not at all dependent upon, or even relevant to, the width of the processor it's connected to. Thank heaven. :) >> I2C, however, uses in-band addressing so it saves board space and I/O >> pins over SPI. > > YEs, that;'s the main reason I think it's more elegant. The separate chip > selects ot each SPI device are somethign fo a pain. I agree 100%. When I have a choice between the two for the same functionality, I err on the side of I2C. >> So, while I personally prefer I2C, I believe it is incorrect to >> consider SPI to be inferior, since it they both have their strengths and >> weaknesses. The industry agrees, as both have been around for decades >> and are still considered de-facto standards for local low-speed >> communications. (I first used I2C on a Philips 87C751 microcontroller on >> a gov't related project in 1991, and it was well-established even then!) > > About when I was using it to talk to Philips teletext ICs, etc :-) :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From sander.reiche at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 17:03:25 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 00:03:25 +0200 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry Message-ID: Hi all, I would just like to inform you guys, if you haven't read or heard about it, is that my entry being running an actual MicroPDP-11/83 online 24/7 with 2.11BSD on the internet, is now up. Sure, there are still some minor things to sort out (like the order of name resolving in libc apparently :)) and probably some other stuff, but I already have 30 registered users and some of 'm are RPGing away in old skool Zork :) If you want to join in on the fun; http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/retro2012.html re, Sander -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 1 17:05:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 18:05:40 -0400 Subject: Break-ins In-Reply-To: References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com>, Message-ID: <4FF0C9B4.6070401@neurotica.com> On 07/01/2012 05:52 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> If these places really cared, they'd put a checking and alarm >> wire on each unit. Each person would get a unique address >> for the gate that would alarm if another unit was opened >> other than the one/ones asigned to that gate number. > > That's what the ezStorage place I had in MD did. They also had the > employees live in an apartment on the property, so there was always a > responsible party on the premises. Tried to find that here in Raleigh > but no luck. I thought nearly all storage conglomerates were doing the people-living-on-the-premises thing nowadays. They do that near here in PA, and at the three places I've had lockers at in FL. Those corporations really milk those employees for all they're worth. One of them was a friend of mine. The horror stories were...well, horrible. The apartments generally suck (similar build quality to that of the storage lockers), they are paid very little, and Corporate works them like dogs. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 17:06:27 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 15:06:27 -0700 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: <4FEEFED1.8299.130B84D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 30, 12 01:27:45 pm, Message-ID: <4FF06773.3229.1BD3F37@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2012 at 20:45, Tony Duell wrote: > And now let me see you access a Philips SAA5243 teletext IC (alos > useful for a 40*25 text video display) using SPI at any speed :-) Do you want me to send you the Verilog for the CPLD in the middle? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 1 17:08:02 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 18:08:02 -0400 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF0660E.18765.1B7C905@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF0660E.18765.1B7C905@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF0CA42.1030701@neurotica.com> On 07/01/2012 06:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> It should be fairly simple to verify. The input to the clock driver >>> should show about 220 ohms to the Vcc connection and about 710 ohms >>> to the ground connection. >> >> The Input is showing 330 Ohm to GND and 327 Ohm to VCC. The Output has >> no measurable Ohm, neiter to VCC, nor to GND. > > Unless there's an external pullup resistor, I can't imagine that this > is an OC output or that the drive is capacitively coupled Did you > try the diode (high voltage) setting on your ohmmeter? I find that 330 ohms to ground part a bit odd. 327 ohms to Vcc is ok; Zilog specs (if I recall correctly) a 330 ohm pullup on the clk line. Z80s are very easy to design with, but their clock drive does require just a bit of special attention. I'd think doing it with a purpose-built hybrid is really a very expensive example of complete overkill; worst case just pump it through a 2N3904 running OC with a 330 ohm pullup. Wouldn't you think? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 1 17:13:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 18:13:46 -0400 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> On 07/01/2012 12:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Probably very similar to the Z80 clock driver shown here: >>> >>> http://www.80bus.co.uk/pages/gemini/documentation/GM813_Circuit.pdf >> >> Where exactly? Was not able to find it... > > Done in discretes--the output of IC37e to TP4 at the Z80A is probably > very close to what's under the blue goo on that hybrid chip. Good heavens. That's got to be the most overdesigned Z80 clock circuit I've ever seen. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Jul 1 17:18:35 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 10:18:35 +1200 Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tony, It is the original version with the knobs at the bottom. >Now, that TV chassis was, as I mentioend, 115V only. To use it in 230V >countries, there was a mains tranformer fitted inside the monitor. THis >is an _isolating_ transofrmer, so the thign is no logner live-chassis. Ah ha, I saw the step down there but I didn't realise it was also an isolating transformer. That has answered a question I had about a "hot chassis". >With the result that hte video input no longer neeeds an optoisolator. >The PCB in palce of the IFs stirp, etc, is just a simple transisotr video >ampliifier. Ok. Thanks. I don't know what an optoisolator and IF strip means. As I said, I need to read up about the mode of operations of these things. This would explain why the 110V schematic doesn't show exactly what is going on in my monitor...even the AC circuit seems a little different. I'll take some pictures to illustrate. At the moment I have verified that the step down transformer is working ok so 110V is indeed getting to the board. It's then that the circuit diagram seems to diverge from what I've got in some ways. I appreciate the help. This project has to stop-start as I've got a few committments in my life right now, but I'll pick it up and try and make progress where I can. Terry (Tez) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 17:30:07 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 15:30:07 -0700 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> References: , <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF06CFF.31797.1D2E729@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2012 at 18:03, Dave McGuire wrote: > They do. SD cards can also be accessed via a four-bit-wide, much > faster interface that is proprietary and undocumented, or at least it > used to be. I'm sure the specs are floating around in the wild by > now, but the SPI mode works just fine, and is fast enough for many > applications. SPI is pretty much guaranteed to work with any flavor SD card, since it's documented. One other benefit is that it will also work with MMC shoved into an SD socket. (I do have a few MMCs kicking around) --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 1 17:32:05 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 18:32:05 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF06773.3229.1BD3F37@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FEEFED1.8299.130B84D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 30, 12 01:27:45 pm, <4FF06773.3229.1BD3F37@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF0CFE5.1040509@neurotica.com> On 07/01/2012 06:06 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> And now let me see you access a Philips SAA5243 teletext IC (alos >> useful for a 40*25 text video display) using SPI at any speed :-) > > Do you want me to send you the Verilog for the CPLD in the middle? Oh shit! [dave dives under table to avoid shrapnel from Tony's detonation] -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 1 17:57:58 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 15:57:58 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF07386.26295.1EC696F@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2012 at 18:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > Good heavens. That's got to be the most overdesigned Z80 clock > circuit I've ever seen. Yup--you'd think that a 74S04 would have done the trick. But the Zilog manual cited shows pretty much the same thing--the input feeding a resistive divider to drive a PNP-NPN "totem pole" combination. The only really significant difference is that Zilog uses a 10K pullup on the output. So I'm guessing that the blue lump is very much like that. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 1 18:10:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 19:10:46 -0400 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF07386.26295.1EC696F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> <4FF07386.26295.1EC696F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF0D8F6.9010602@neurotica.com> On 07/01/2012 06:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Good heavens. That's got to be the most overdesigned Z80 clock >> circuit I've ever seen. > > Yup--you'd think that a 74S04 would have done the trick. I know for a fact that a 74S04 will do the trick, as will an HCT04 with a 330-ohm pullup, as I have both of those configs running on two of my SBCs here. Man some guys just like to bloat the BOM I guess. > But the > Zilog manual cited shows pretty much the same thing--the input > feeding a resistive divider to drive a PNP-NPN "totem pole" > combination. The only really significant difference is that Zilog > uses a 10K pullup on the output. Bizarre. > So I'm guessing that the blue lump is very much like that. Probably. Back in those days the communication resources between designers were nowhere near as effective as they are today, leading to many more instances of "designing in a vacuum" with just the datasheets to go by, and nothing else. I don't miss that AT ALL. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Jul 1 19:22:38 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA at avocado.salatschuessel.net>, > <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3 at cclist.sydex.com>, > <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA at avocado.salatschuessel.net> > <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E at cclist.sydex.com> Whatever generated this is at least somewhat broken; the result is non-syntactic. You might want to fix it.... > The Input is showing 330 Ohm to GND and 327 Ohm to VCC. The Output > has no measurable Ohm, neiter to VCC, nor to GND. Does "no measurable ohm" mean immeasurably high (ie, measures like an open circuit), or immeasurably low (ie, measures like a short)? Mouse From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Jul 1 19:39:40 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF0CA42.1030701@neurotica.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF0660E.18765.1B7C905@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF0CA42.1030701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201207020039.UAA17344@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I find that 330 ohms to ground part a bit odd. 327 ohms to Vcc is > ok; Zilog specs (if I recall correctly) a 330 ohm pullup on the clk > line. Is it not plausible that 330 ohms to ground represents 327 ohms to Vcc plus three ohms Vcc-to-GND? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jul 1 19:48:14 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 17:48:14 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <201207020039.UAA17344@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF0660E.18765.1B7C905@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF0CA42.1030701@neurotica.com> <201207020039.UAA17344@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5F886F04-957F-4869-B32B-ED6C25AE76A3@shiresoft.com> On Jul 1, 2012, at 5:39 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I find that 330 ohms to ground part a bit odd. 327 ohms to Vcc is >> ok; Zilog specs (if I recall correctly) a 330 ohm pullup on the clk >> line. > > Is it not plausible that 330 ohms to ground represents 327 ohms to Vcc > plus three ohms Vcc-to-GND? Really? Do you not want to re-think that? TTFN - Guy From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Jul 1 20:07:38 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 21:07:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <5F886F04-957F-4869-B32B-ED6C25AE76A3@shiresoft.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF0660E.18765.1B7C905@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF0CA42.1030701@neurotica.com> <201207020039.UAA17344@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5F886F04-957F-4869-B32B-ED6C25AE76A3@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <201207020107.VAA17564@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Is it not plausible that 330 ohms to ground represents 327 ohms to >> Vcc plus three ohms Vcc-to-GND? > Really? Do you not want to re-think that? Well, it's unlikely to be a simple three ohms. However, it easily could represent the effective resistance of the rest of the chip - or, more likely, the voltage dropped as small amounts of current leak through various paths, translated into a resistance measurement. Or, again depending on the details of the meter technology and how the measurement is done, it could be that the 327 ohm measurement does not represent 327 ohms of resistance but rather the forward drop of one of that input's protection diodes. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jul 1 20:07:48 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 19:07:48 -0600 Subject: Philips P2701E Terminal - Configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Camiel Vanderhoeven writes: > Some Philips terminals are rebadged Hazeltines. Does it look like the > picture on page 2 of this manual: > http://p800.wikispaces.com/file/view/p800m_sec2_prt3.pdf? That would be either a Hazeltine 1000 or Hazeltine 1200 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jul 1 21:58:06 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 21:58:06 -0500 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF10E3E.3080609@pico-systems.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 21:42:31 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Z80 CLK DRV Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain I cna't help wit hthe pinout, but I can guess the function. IIRC the clock input of the S80 is not actually TTL compatible, it needs to be pulled up to the 5V line.My guess is that thes are clock driver cirucits for this signal, they take a TTL level singal in and give out the genuine 5V signal for the Z80 clock input. I used to do a lot of Z80 designs, most with classic Zilog Z80s, but also some later ones with Harris CMOS Z80 clones for battery-powered applications. I don't recall a lot of difficulty with the clock generation, I used classic 74xx chips. Generally I started with a faster xtal oscillator and divided down with something like a 74HC161, so maybe that was all that was needed to get the right clock swing. Jon From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Jul 1 22:16:24 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay In-Reply-To: <011CE82BE7F6467FB403E7F8409AF027@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com> <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com> <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FEDFF15.6080007@gmail.com> <011CE82BE7F6467FB403E7F8409AF027@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <1341198984.96286.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: TeoZ The problem with that auction is there are no 800K floppy drives (which are hard to get these days), all the cards are gone (you need to have a video card on that model), and you are missing the HD. I would guess somebody wanted the guts and software but didn't want to pay to ship the whole unit. C: Why would you want 800k drives? The 1.44 mb superdrives read all the old formats. Video cards aren't that uncommon (had a few, but somebody tossed a bunch of my stuff out). SCSC h/d's are easy enough to find. ?Good to hear I'll be able to bring my old IIx and IIcx back to life. Just capacitors, and big electrolytics I think too. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 1 22:32:22 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 23:32:22 -0400 Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com> <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com> <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FEDFF15.6080007@gmail.com> <011CE82BE7F6467FB403E7F8409AF027@hd2600xt6a04f7> <1341198984.96286.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Tofu" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 11:16 PM Subject: Re: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay "C: Why would you want 800k drives? The 1.44 mb superdrives read all the old formats. Video cards aren't that uncommon (had a few, but somebody tossed a bunch of my stuff out). SCSC h/d's are easy enough to find. Good to hear I'll be able to bring my old IIx and IIcx back to life. Just capacitors, and big electrolytics I think too." The Mac II can only use 800K drives, you need a IIx or newer for Superdrives. While I have stacks of Nubus cards and SCSI drives most people don't, finding them now is much harder (or more expensive) then it was for me 10 years ago. Reworking the old Aluminum metal can capacitors will revive a system IF the leaking goo hasn't destroyed anything on the board. I have a dead 840AV that has other issues then just capacitors, but have fixed many other systems that didn't have other damage. P.S. The ROM SIMM on a IIx might need removed and cleaned if the machine doesn't boot (after you replace the batteries and capacitors as needed). From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Jul 1 22:54:22 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 20:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com> <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com> <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FEDFF15.6080007@gmail.com> <011CE82BE7F6467FB403E7F8409AF027@hd2600xt6a04f7> <1341198984.96286.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1341201262.28225.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: TeoZ P.S. The ROM SIMM on a IIx might? need removed and cleaned if the machine doesn't boot (after you replace the batteries and capacitors as needed). Where can you find the right battery? ? And incidentally what would it take to upgrade a II to utilize superdirves. Heck I thought my SE had one, but I'm not positive. Is it simply a rom upgrade, or is it a function of the hardware? From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 1 23:07:51 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 00:07:51 -0400 Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com> <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com> <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FEDFF15.6080007@gmail.com> <011CE82BE7F6467FB403E7F8409AF027@hd2600xt6a04f7> <1341198984.96286.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1341201262.28225.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55F60BE8E7A440A58237495D9B35B598@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Tofu" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 11:54 PM Subject: Re: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay ________________________________ "Where can you find the right battery? And incidentally what would it take to upgrade a II to utilize superdirves. Heck I thought my SE had one, but I'm not positive. Is it simply a rom upgrade, or is it a function of the hardware?" The floppy controller chip is what needs changed on the SE, not sure if the one on the II is solderd on or removable ( I don't own a Mac II). The batteries (2 needed) for the II are 3.6V 1/2AA axial leads (soldered to the motherboard unless it has been modified). New model IIx/IIfx etc have socketed batteries. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sun Jul 1 23:36:03 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 06:36:03 +0200 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF06773.3229.1BD3F37@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FEEFED1.8299.130B84D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 30, 12 01:27:45 pm, <4FF06773.3229.1BD3F37@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF12533.8010209@bluewin.ch> On 07/02/2012 12:06 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jul 2012 at 20:45, Tony Duell wrote: > >> And now let me see you access a Philips SAA5243 teletext IC (alos >> useful for a 40*25 text video display) using SPI at any speed :-) > Do you want me to send you the Verilog for the CPLD in the middle? > > --Chuck Yes please. Jos From iamcamiel at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 00:09:01 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 07:09:01 +0200 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF12533.8010209@bluewin.ch> References: <4FEEFED1.8299.130B84D@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF06773.3229.1BD3F37@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF12533.8010209@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 6:36 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > On 07/02/2012 12:06 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> On 1 Jul 2012 at 20:45, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> And now let me see you access a Philips SAA5243 teletext IC (alos >>> useful for a 40*25 text video display) using SPI at any speed :-) >> >> Do you want me to send you the Verilog for the CPLD in the middle? >> >> --Chuck > > > Yes please. > Jos > > /**************************************************************************************** * SPI to I2C interface * January 2007. *****************************************************************************************/ /* Top module */ module SPI_to_I2C (SPI_sclk, SPI_cs, SPI_miso, SPI_mosi, I2C_sda, I2C_scl ); inout I2C_sda; // Bidirectional SDA line inout I2C_scl; // Bidirectional SCL line input SPI_sclk; // SPI clock input SPI_cs; // SPI chip select input SPI_mosi; // Master out slave in output SPI_miso; // Master in slave out //........ endmodule /*********************************************END************************************************/ Didn't want to post the whiole thing here, but you should take a look at: - http://www.altera.com/literature/an/an486.pdf - http://www.altera.com/literature/an/an486_design_example.zip Cheers, Camiel. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 00:41:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2012 22:41:57 -0700 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: <4FEEFED1.8299.130B84D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF12533.8010209@bluewin.ch>, Message-ID: <4FF0D235.12120.35E44F7@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2012 at 7:09, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Didn't want to post the whiole thing here, but you should take a look > at: > > - http://www.altera.com/literature/an/an486.pdf > - http://www.altera.com/literature/an/an486_design_example.zip Thanks for saving me the lookup--I knew I'd seen it somewhere! ...but I'm not certain that Tony does Verilog (or VHDL)... --Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Jul 2 01:33:39 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 08:33:39 +0200 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120702083339.Horde.veOKDaQd9PdP8UDDMYt95UA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/01/2012 12:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Done in discretes--the output of IC37e to TP4 at the Z80A is probably >> very close to what's under the blue goo on that hybrid chip. > > Good heavens. That's got to be the most overdesigned Z80 clock > circuit I've ever seen. It is a Zilog System 8000 board - what would you expect from Zilog to use? When they put such a circuit into their Z80 spec, they better eat their own food ;) From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Jul 2 01:41:04 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 08:41:04 +0200 Subject: mail headers (was: Re: Z80 CLK DRV) In-Reply-To: <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120702084104.Horde.9W4lBaQd9PdP8UKA4hCLj6A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Mouse wrote: >> References: >> <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA at avocado.salatschuessel.net>, >> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3 at cclist.sydex.com>, >> <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA at avocado.salatschuessel.net> >> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E at cclist.sydex.com> > > Whatever generated this is at least somewhat broken; the result is > non-syntactic. You might want to fix it.... Why? This header lines was put by my MUA and RFC5322[1] specifies: The "Message-ID:" field contains a single unique message identifier. The "References:" and "In-Reply-To:" fields each contain one or more unique message identifiers, optionally separated by CFWS. [...] The "In-Reply-To:" and "References:" fields are used when creating a reply to a message. They hold the message identifier of the original message and the message identifiers of other messages (for example, in the case of a reply to a message that was itself a reply). The "In-Reply-To:" field may be used to identify the message (or messages) to which the new message is a reply, while the "References:" field may be used to identify a "thread" of conversation. When creating a reply to a message, the "In-Reply-To:" and "References:" fields of the resultant message are constructed as follows: The "In-Reply-To:" field will contain the contents of the "Message-ID:" field of the message to which this one is a reply (the "parent message"). If there is more than one parent message, then the "In-Reply-To:" field will contain the contents of all of the parents' "Message-ID:" fields. If there is no "Message-ID:" field in any of the parent messages, then the new message will have no "In- Reply-To:" field. The "References:" field will contain the contents of the parent's "References:" field (if any) followed by the contents of the parent's "Message-ID:" field (if any). If the parent message does not contain a "References:" field but does have an "In-Reply-To:" field containing a single message identifier, then the "References:" field will contain the contents of the parent's "In-Reply-To:" field followed by the contents of the parent's "Message-ID:" field (if any). If the parent has none of the "References:", "In-Reply-To:", or "Message-ID:" fields, then the new message will have no "References:" field. [1]: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5322.txt From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 2 01:59:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 02:59:06 -0400 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120702083339.Horde.veOKDaQd9PdP8UDDMYt95UA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> <20120702083339.Horde.veOKDaQd9PdP8UDDMYt95UA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4FF146BA.4020802@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 02:33 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >>> Done in discretes--the output of IC37e to TP4 at the Z80A is probably >>> very close to what's under the blue goo on that hybrid chip. >> >> Good heavens. That's got to be the most overdesigned Z80 clock >> circuit I've ever seen. > > It is a Zilog System 8000 board - what would you expect from Zilog > to use? When they put such a circuit into their Z80 spec, they better > eat their own food ;) I suppose so! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spc at conman.org Mon Jul 2 04:26:30 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 05:26:30 -0400 Subject: mail headers (was: Re: Z80 CLK DRV) In-Reply-To: <20120702084104.Horde.9W4lBaQd9PdP8UKA4hCLj6A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120702084104.Horde.9W4lBaQd9PdP8UKA4hCLj6A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20120702092630.GA31814@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Oliver Lehmann once stated: > > Mouse wrote: > > >>References: > >><20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA at avocado.salatschuessel.net>, > >> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3 at cclist.sydex.com>, > >> <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA at avocado.salatschuessel.net> > >> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E at cclist.sydex.com> > > > >Whatever generated this is at least somewhat broken; the result is > >non-syntactic. You might want to fix it.... > > Why? This header lines was put by my MUA and RFC5322[1] specifies: > > > The "Message-ID:" field contains a single unique message identifier. > The "References:" and "In-Reply-To:" fields each contain one or more > unique message identifiers, optionally separated by CFWS. And just in case someone complains about this being a very recent development, the "Referenes:" header was first mentioned in RFC-680 (1975---makes no reference to number of references allowed, but does state any that any that are listed to be enclosed in angle brackets). RFC-724 (1977) futher defines the "References:" header, as having the ability to include multiple references: ::= "In-Reply-To" ":" | "Keywords" ":" | "Message-Id" ":" | "References" ":" | "Subject" ":" | "Comments" ":" | ::= | | "," ::= | ::= "<" ">" ( definition omitted). So it's a pretty old idea ... [1] -spc (RFC-822 is the fifth RFC on an email format ... ) [1] In fact, for a personal project I delved into the history of Inernet based email and as far as I know, the first RFC dealing with electronic email is RFC-561 (1973) that pretty much defines the overall format for Internet releated text messages every since (headers, blank line, body, etc.). It only defined three headers (From, Date and Subject) but you have to start somewhere ... From codeblue at inbox.lv Mon Jul 2 04:48:02 2012 From: codeblue at inbox.lv (codeblue at inbox.lv) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 09:48:02 +0000 Subject: mail headers (was: Re: Z80 CLK DRV) In-Reply-To: <20120702092630.GA31814@brevard.conman.org> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120702084104.Horde.9W4lBaQd9PdP8UKA4hCLj6A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120702092630.GA31814@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20120702094802.GA19847@inbox.lv> > > >Whatever generated this is at least somewhat broken; the result is > > >non-syntactic. You might want to fix it.... The only wierd thing is some of the MIDs are comma-delimited, others not. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jul 2 03:14:05 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 01:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF0CFE5.1040509@neurotica.com> References: <4FEEFED1.8299.130B84D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 30, 12 01:27:45 pm, <4FF06773.3229.1BD3F37@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF0CFE5.1040509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jul 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/01/2012 06:06 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> And now let me see you access a Philips SAA5243 teletext IC (alos >>> useful for a 40*25 text video display) using SPI at any speed :-) >> >> Do you want me to send you the Verilog for the CPLD in the middle? > > Oh shit! > > [dave dives under table to avoid shrapnel from Tony's detonation] > Don't worry Dave. It'll be mis-spelled and unreadable, so it won't do any damage. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 09:36:27 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 15:36:27 +0100 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1 July 2012 23:03, Sander Reiche wrote: > Hi all, > > I would just like to inform you guys, if you haven't read or heard > about it, is that my entry being running an actual MicroPDP-11/83 > online 24/7 with 2.11BSD on the internet, is now up. Sure, there are > still some minor things to sort out (like the order of name resolving > in libc apparently :)) and probably some other stuff, but I already > have 30 registered users and some of 'm are RPGing away in old skool > Zork :) > If you want to join in on the fun; http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/retro2012.html Hey, cool. Thanks for that. I wonder... I have a couple of long-term "projects" that might count... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jul 2 09:40:03 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 10:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: mail headers (was: Re: Z80 CLK DRV) In-Reply-To: <20120702092630.GA31814@brevard.conman.org> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120702084104.Horde.9W4lBaQd9PdP8UKA4hCLj6A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120702092630.GA31814@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <201207021440.KAA23741@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA at avocado.salatschuessel.net>, >>>> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3 at cclist.sydex.com>, >>>> <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA at avocado.salatschuessel.net> >>>> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E at cclist.sydex.com> >> RFC5322[1] specifies: >> The "Message-ID:" field contains a single unique message identifier. >> The "References:" and "In-Reply-To:" fields each contain one or more >> unique message identifiers, optionally separated by CFWS. Yes. CFWS. Commas are not CFWS. > RFC-724 (1977) futher defines the "References:" header, as having the > ability to include multiple references: Yes. This is where most of the comma-containing References: headers probably come from - software written to a very old definition of the header (or possibly, even, written by someone who didn't bother checking the spec). Even 822 specifies References: without the commas (you can use commas in an 822 References:, but only by putting quotes around them, turning them into quoted-strings, or parens, turning them into comments). 733, intermediate between 724 and 822, has the commas. Other sources of commas in References: are software that copies existing References: blindly, adding message-IDs to one end or the other, thus perpetuating mistakes but at least not making them worse. Indeed, the example quoted above must have come from such a thing, since it is lacking the comma between the third and fourth message-IDs. There's also In-Reply-To:, which I regularly see containing free-form text such as (to quote the first example I find in my mail) In-Reply-To: <4FEFB24E.1080206 at telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Jun 30, 12 10:13:34 pm" 822 permits that particular case (since the s are all quoted) but 2822 does not. I really need to tweak my own MUA so that it doesn't perpetuate the problem in existing headers (it currently is an instance of the "copy it textually and add" genre; I fix them when I notice, but I don't always notice). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 2 10:17:44 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 08:17:44 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF0D8F6.9010602@neurotica.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, , <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4FF0CB9A.7040000@neurotica.com> <4FF07386.26295.1EC696F@cclist.sydex.com>,<4FF0D8F6.9010602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com ---snip--- > > Probably. Back in those days the communication resources between > designers were nowhere near as effective as they are today, leading to > many more instances of "designing in a vacuum" with just the datasheets > to go by, and nothing else. I don't miss that AT ALL. > > -Dave > Some of the app notes from the manufacture were wrong as well. I found an error in one of the notes for the 4040 Intel part. The reset was inverted relative to the original 4004 and needed an inverter to match the 4001 and 4002. They'd place a transistor between the 4040 and the other chips. The problem was that the 4040 would start running for 2 or three cycles before the 4001s were released. It wouldn't always reset right. In the app note, they said to put 3 or 4 NOPs at the begining of the code. This work most times but failed on about 5-10% of the boards I worked on while at Intel. It just require changing the order, release the 4001s first then the 4040. Dwight From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Jul 2 10:18:29 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 17:18:29 +0200 Subject: mail headers (was: Re: Z80 CLK DRV) In-Reply-To: <201207021440.KAA23741@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120702084104.Horde.9W4lBaQd9PdP8UKA4hCLj6A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120702092630.GA31814@brevard.conman.org> <201207021440.KAA23741@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120702171829.Horde.CL5JFaQd9PdP8bvFmBWB8UA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Mouse wrote: > Other sources of commas in References: are software that copies > existing References: blindly, adding message-IDs to one end or the > other, thus perpetuating mistakes but at least not making them worse. > Indeed, the example quoted above must have come from such a thing, > since it is lacking the comma between the third and fourth message-IDs. This is then probably "my fault". My MUA just copied the References: which where already present and didn't "fixed" them. But - there is no paragraph in the RFC about fixing wrong headers ;) from the RFC 5322: The "References:" field will contain the contents of the parent's "References:" field (if any) followed by the contents of the parent's "Message-ID:" field (if any). This is exactly what my MUA did - there is nothing about "...will contain the _fixed_ contents of the..." ;) And if your MUA is not able to handle the References header with comma and/or without - you are not able to read old emails written until RFC 5322 came out and thus having "," in there References header? If this would be my MUA, I would start complaining to it as it should have some sort of fallback plan in case a message arrives which is compatible to older RFCs. You probably can't make sure that all users in the world will immediatly switch to MUAs always compatible to the latest RFCs - you'll always have MUAs around which are not 100% compatible to the latest but to an older version of RFC (or to no RFC at all). Probably there should be a "Compatible-with:" header.......... Expecting every MUA to be compatible only to the latest RFC is a little bit naive - eh? Instead of tilting at windmills, save your time ;) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 10:59:51 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 08:59:51 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF0D8F6.9010602@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: <4FF16307.3132.36A8CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2012 at 8:17, dwight elvey wrote: > Some of the app notes from the manufacture were wrong as well. Intel was pretty wild and wooly back in the 70s. I recall once hearing a stream of invective coming from the office next to mine. It seems that the guy had been presented with samples of the new Intel 8202 DRAM controller and the datasheets and app notes. If you took Intel's datasheet numbers and crunched them through the reference design that Intel provided, worst-case required DRAM with a negative access time... --Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Jul 2 11:09:51 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 18:09:51 +0200 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120702180951.Horde.yG4YNKQd9PdP8cfPRBlFijA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Mouse wrote: >> The Input is showing 330 Ohm to GND and 327 Ohm to VCC. The Output >> has no measurable Ohm, neiter to VCC, nor to GND. > > Does "no measurable ohm" mean immeasurably high (ie, measures like an > open circuit), or immeasurably low (ie, measures like a short)? Input -> VCC 322 Ohm Input -> GND 319 Ohm VCC -> Input 327 Ohm GND -> Input 330 Ohm Output -> VCC 5.23 MOhm Output -> GND 5.20 MOhm VCC -> Output 11.21 MOhm GND -> Output 11.20 MOhm From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 00:52:17 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 17:52:17 +1200 Subject: H745 Power Supply Repair Message-ID: Continuing to make progress on the 11/04. The H7441 supplies are still to be tested. The 24000uf input capacitor is faulty on one and while waiting on the replacement I also noticed one of the 1200uf capacitors in the output CLC filter was leaking. Now waiting for parts to replace both CLC filter capacitors (560uf and 1200uf) in each supply before I power them up. Moved on to the H745. The two output capacitors test file but the big 31000uf electrolytic after the rectifier is faulty and needs replacement. Any suggested on a replacement other than same spec... it seems a bit highly spec'ed for what this module is doing. Regards Andrew From jlobocki at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 07:10:57 2012 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 07:10:57 -0500 Subject: Break-ins In-Reply-To: <4FF01343.8030406@brouhaha.com> References: <1AD69545-08F9-43A4-9625-37B5CEC29B4C@shiresoft.com> <4FF01343.8030406@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: yes, either that tool or an angle grinder would do the trick on a lock if you want to brute force it... but as lock designs are very old, and we as a people have advanced, many weaknesses have been discovered in standard tumbler locks, I.e. bumping, picking, etc. This can be done with easily obtainable items. I explain this to someone I know who insists on locking their doors every 5 minutes, thinking someone will just walk in, when in reality, the thin weak pressboard doorframes on most modern homes (compared to the aluminum/metal frames, like the one on my old house built in the 50s) would do very little to stop an actual intruder from knocking the door in and busting the deadbolt and latch right out of the frame with a single kick... oh but that false sense of security fools most. this is also the land where people post their most personal information to the public on facebook. I remember my high school years early 2000s, working at a hardware store, we locked the gate at night with a Medeco "high security" padlock. At the time, there were claims it was pick-proof bump-proof and practically bulletproof. We had it seize up locked on the gate after years and years of heat-cold-salt-snow-rain-ice and daily locking and unlocking. they couldn't get a grinder or any other tool on the shackle to cut it off as it had the armoring around the shackle, so they had no choice but to call a locksmith to get it off. Just recently people have figured out how to circumvent these things, WITHOUT brute force, which is scary seeing as these "high security" locks are used to secure various facilities, including places in the white house, pentagon, etc. As said before, locks only keep honest people out... On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 4:07 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Paul Anderson wrote: > >> I was once told that locks were made to keep honest people out. If >> someone wants in bad enough, they will get it.Thermite, anyone? >> > > Doesn't take anything near that fancy. I needed a diskus-style padlock > removed recently. (Yes, it was my own lock, protecting my own stuff, and > stupidly I lost the key.) Someone cut it off for me using a high-speed > cut-off tool that looked similar to a Harbor Freight #68523, and cut > through the whole central diameter of the lock in under 15 seconds. > > Eric > > From markbenson at mac.com Mon Jul 2 07:51:31 2012 From: markbenson at mac.com (Mark Benson) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 13:51:31 +0100 Subject: AlphaServer 4100 RCM Message-ID: <82CAFFD6-A45F-442C-A7AF-5BF9B70B72DF@mac.com> Does anyone know what the spec and polarity is of the 12V PSU port for the AlphaServer 4100 Remote Console. I'd like to be able to use it when the machine is offline. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 2 11:41:31 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <17C5DA1D-B834-447C-8CF9-2E2521314187@gmail.com> from George Rachor at "Jun 30, 12 03:35:19 am" Message-ID: <201207021641.q62GfVlA6029466@floodgap.com> > After a few minutes plugged in.. (Battery still remove) we have gone back > to the original systems. led flashes on while power button is depressed, > The fans start briefly then slow back down. I hear the disk drive start > but no other activity_ Check the processor module. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I don't care who you are, stop walking on the water when I'm fishing! <>< -- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 11:50:30 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 12:50:30 -0400 Subject: Chicago help requested Message-ID: I am looking for some help in the Chicago area. Very recently, an IBM mainframe old-timer passed away. He has some old manuals and so forth that the family would like to save, but they understandably are too busy. Of note is a 16 mm film concerning the release of OS/360, which was to go to CHM. So, if there is someone out there that could pick these items up (Woodridge, IL - a southwest suburb), I would appreciate it. Time may be short. Please let me know offlist. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 11:51:52 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 12:51:52 -0400 Subject: Chicago help requested (tick tick tick) Message-ID: > So, if there is someone out there that could pick these items up > (Woodridge, IL - a southwest suburb), I would appreciate it. Time may > be short. Please let me know offlist. I just received a note saying this must be done today or tomorrow, as the family departs on Wednesday! -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 12:24:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 10:24:03 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <20120702180951.Horde.yG4YNKQd9PdP8cfPRBlFijA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <20120702180951.Horde.yG4YNKQd9PdP8cfPRBlFijA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4FF176C3.6630.83C084@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2012 at 18:09, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Output -> VCC 5.23 MOhm > Output -> GND 5.20 MOhm > VCC -> Output 11.21 MOhm > GND -> Output 11.20 MOhm Interesting--so they're apparently using a "naked" totem-pole output stage with no pullup. Interesting--I thought that Zilog always specified at least a 10K pullup on the clock input. Rules were made to be broken, I guess. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 2 12:34:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 13:34:47 -0400 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF176C3.6630.83C084@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <20120702180951.Horde.yG4YNKQd9PdP8cfPRBlFijA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF176C3.6630.83C084@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF1DBB7.90602@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 01:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Output -> VCC 5.23 MOhm >> Output -> GND 5.20 MOhm >> VCC -> Output 11.21 MOhm >> GND -> Output 11.20 MOhm > > Interesting--so they're apparently using a "naked" totem-pole output > stage with no pullup. Interesting--I thought that Zilog always > specified at least a 10K pullup on the clock input. > > Rules were made to be broken, I guess. I haven't gone and checked, but I do recall pretty clearly that they specify a 330 ohm pullup on the clock line of a Z80, not 10K. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 13:06:26 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 13:06:26 -0500 Subject: Chicago help requested (tick tick tick) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 11:51 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > I just received a note saying this must be done today or tomorrow, as > the family departs on Wednesday! Will - sent you a direct email re: the previous message. Get in touch and I'll see what I can do. j From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 13:06:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 11:06:57 -0700 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF1DBB7.90602@neurotica.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF176C3.6630.83C084@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF1DBB7.90602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF180D1.16062.AB0762@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2012 at 13:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > I haven't gone and checked, but I do recall pretty clearly that they > specify a 330 ohm pullup on the clock line of a Z80, not 10K. I was going by the Z80 app note that shows the discrete totem pole output followed by a resistor that has the notation "10K (max)". I haven't checked the date of publication--the notation on the schematic might have been made by an oil company executive... --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 13:20:22 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 14:20:22 -0400 Subject: Chicago help requested (tick tick tick) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Will - sent you a direct email re: the previous message. Get in touch > and I'll see what I can do. One of the mainframe guys has offered to do it, but I need to confirm with him. Stay tuned, we may have this covered. I do not know how much there is, nor exactly what is there. -- Will From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jul 2 13:51:56 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 14:51:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: mail headers (was: Re: Z80 CLK DRV) In-Reply-To: <20120702171829.Horde.CL5JFaQd9PdP8bvFmBWB8UA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF014DC.13889.7AA0A3@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701183722.Horde.ux5fCaQd9PdP8HzC5P3IrZA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF01F5B.9499.A39D9E@cclist.sydex.com> <20120701221005.Horde.LnySHaQd9PdP8K6d0yyNdAA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120702084104.Horde.9W4lBaQd9PdP8UKA4hCLj6A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20120702092630.GA31814@brevard.conman.org> <201207021440.KAA23741@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120702171829.Horde.CL5JFaQd9PdP8bvFmBWB8UA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <201207021851.OAA26111@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Other sources of commas in References: are software that copies >> existing References: blindly, adding message-IDs to one end or the >> other, thus perpetuating mistakes but at least not making them >> worse. [...] > This is then probably "my fault". My MUA just copied the References: > which where already present and didn't "fixed" them. But - there is > no paragraph in the RFC about fixing wrong headers ;) No...but generating syntax errors is a spec violation, even if they're generated by copying other syntax errors. How much you care about that spec violation, of course, only you can say. > And if your MUA is not able to handle the References header with > comma and/or without - you are not able to read old emails written > until RFC 5322 came out and thus having "," in there References > header? Heh. No, my UA is like yours in this respect. The nonsyntactic References: header didn't break anything for me. Every once in a while when I notice such syntax errors, I mention them, in the (admittedly faint, these days) hope that whatever is producing or propagating them will get a bug report filed against it. I don't do it very often, and don't get very vigorous about it, both because I often don't notice and because I'm very aware my own UA is guilty of mistake-by-propagation. (I really should have it ignore such headers when they're nonsyntactic or some such.) > Expecting every MUA to be compatible only to the latest RFC is a > little bit naive - eh? Oh, certainly. "Expect" is a verb with multiple incompatible meanings. I don't expect it in the sebse of "consider probable", but I do expect it in the sense of "consider reasonable or due", at least with respect to aspects on which the specs haven't changed in over a decade. > Instead of tilting at windmills, save your time ;) "You might want to fix it" hardly strikes me as tilting at windmills. You may note I wasn't yammering about how you MUST MUST FIX THIS INSTANTLY IF NOT SOONER BECAUSE IT'S BROKEN! BROKEN! BROKEN!!11eleven!. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 2 13:12:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:12:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FEF12F1.3060301@acc.umu.se> from "=?windows-1252?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=" at Jun 30, 12 04:53:37 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell skrev 2012-06-30 00:15: > >> Tony *might* approve if the published documentation included detailed > >> instructions on how to mine your own copper ore, smelt it, build a > >> silicon refinery, fabricate your own CPU, spin glass fibre and > >> synthesize resin and then manufacture your own circuit board. > >> > >> But I do emphasize the "might" here... > > Actually, I'd be very likely to approve of it if : > > > > It came complete, that is to say I could just plug it in and go without > > having to pay to download and print manuals, download the OS, etc > > Which operating system should it come preloaded with then? Debian=20 Any. AS you and others have said you can now get pre-loaded cards with a bootable OS on them. I don't believe that was the case when the thing was announced, My point is that you shouldn't _have_ to download anything if you don't want to. It should be possible to just buy a 'complete' system, plug it together and go. I also agree that the board should be avaialble on its own, with no OS-on-a-card, no manual, etc, for people who want to have more than one and use them as embedded systems. It would eb silly to ahve to pay for multiple manuals then. > A printed "Raspberry Pi users guide" is almost redy, they take preorders=20 > now. Better to buy one single book than one with each Pi. I can see them=20 Agreed on both points. _When_ the Rpi was announced, there was no mention of pre-loaed OSes on SD cards, no mention of a printed manual, and the availability of a schematic was uncertain. I looked at what was said then and decided that in that state the Rpi was certainly not for me. As a result I stopped looking at it. Now that things have changed, I would reconsider it . But I can't keep looking at products that don't interest me in case they've changed to soemthign that does. There are simply too many products out there. > > 2) I understnad the's some kind of GPIO/user port. How many lines, are > > they individually selectable for direction? Can this be easilly used fr= > om > > C (I assuem there's a C vompiler included with the OS). > > 17 GPIO lines, individually selectable direction and many with secondary=20 > functions as UART, SPI, PWM, I2C... YEs, I read the spec. I do deel that the support for these is pretty minimal so far. I would like to see device drivers, libraries, etc to use them as applicablle. > More GPIO pins are available on other connectors. Only 3.3V levels, no=20 > 5V tolerant I/O. But 3.3V and 5V is available on the GPIO connector. Sure. And buffering/level-shiftign thenm is not a major problem. I would want to buffer them anyway in most applciations, if only becasue the main 'chip' on an Rpi is probably difficutl to get other htan on an Rpi, is certainly next-to-impossible to replace (BGA), and so on. I'd rather have to change a SOIC or DIL buffer IC. I understand the const reasons, but given that this is a user port, and given that using it appears ot be covered in the printed manual (simple interfacing, etc), I wonder just how many Rpi will have the main 'chip' blown up by newbies. Nothign wrong with making mistakes and blowing ICs, of course, that's how you learn. But I would ratehr it was something that could be easily replaced. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 2 13:25:28 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:25:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jul 1, 12 06:03:02 pm Message-ID: > >> at eight bits, while SPI can transfer arbitrary word widths. (this is > >> handy for, say, ADCs and DACs). > > > > Hmm.. I am not convinced. > > You're not convinced that SPI supports multiple word widths?? I can > show you the datasheet of the microcontroller in my current design, > where it's configurable, if you like. No, of course I am, convinced of that. I have read the data sheets for SPI decvices. I am not convinced that having arbitrary word lengths (which might not even be a multiple of 4 bits) is an advantage. > > > Any microprocesosr/controller is goinf to have > > a 'natural' word size (8 bits, 16 bits, etc). The hardware SPI interface > > is goign to trasnfer in chunks of that size -- you write a byte, or > > whatever to a particualr I/O register and it sends it (or part of it). If > > you bit-bang it, you will be shifitng the data in one of the procesor > > registers, again of a definted size. > > No, that's not at all how it works Tony. Or rather, that's perhaps a > suboptimal way to look at it. My particular example is the > Philips...erm, "NXP" (grumble) LPC2000-series ARM7 processors, which I'm > using all over the place now. They are 32-bit processors, and their SPI > controllers can be configured (by setting bits in very well-documented > registers) for 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, or 16 bits per transfer. > You write to the SPI data register, which is sixteen bits wide, and just > treat the other bits as "don't cares". Sure. I would have expected it to work that way. But what do you do if you, say, have a 20 bit device? 10 bits at a time? That means repackign the 20 bit word. Yo ucan't do 16 bits and then 4 bits (apparently), and if you could you'd still ahve to reprogram the word length between the parts of a single word. I'd prefer to just send an integral number of bytes (or words, or whatever) and have the device ignore the unusued data. That's waht I2C does for 12 bit devices AFAIK. > As a digression, normally, assuming programming in C, you'd place a > "unsigned short" variable at the address of the SPI data register. (I'll AFAIK sizeof(unsigned short) is not defined anywhere :-). > have none of that uncivilized "uint32_t" bullshit that these kids have > dreamed up...and, surprise, my code is VERY portable) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 2 13:29:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:29:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF06773.3229.1BD3F37@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 1, 12 03:06:27 pm Message-ID: > > On 1 Jul 2012 at 20:45, Tony Duell wrote: > > > And now let me see you access a Philips SAA5243 teletext IC (alos > > useful for a 40*25 text video display) using SPI at any speed :-) > > Do you want me to send you the Verilog for the CPLD in the middle? Not particualrly, for3 main reasons : 1) From what you say in another message, this came fro ma standard application note, and I can look that up if I ever need it. 2) I don't read Verilog (or any other hardwre description language). Now, if you send me a schematic doing the whole thing with 74xx ICs, I'll make sense of it :-) [1] 3) It's irrelevant anyway. I don;t dispute you can make an itnerfce between SPI and I2C. Heck, I've got an ES232 to I2C (as a master on the I2C) interfce here. But you are stil ltalking I2C to the teletext IC, which is not suprising. You cna't sensibly do anythign else... [1] I wonder what the bneast way to do thsis would be? Off the top of my head, soem kind of microdoed ssytem or complex stat emachine (which at this level are the same thing, of course) would be my first guess. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 2 13:32:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:32:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF0660E.18765.1B7C905@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 1, 12 03:00:30 pm Message-ID: > > The Input is showing 330 Ohm to GND and 327 Ohm to VCC. The Output has > > no measurable Ohm, neiter to VCC, nor to GND. Does 'n measurable ohm' mean a short (0 ohms) or open (infinte, overrange, etc)? > > Unless there's an external pullup resistor, I can't imagine that this > is an OC output or that the drive is capacitively coupled Did you > try the diode (high voltage) setting on your ohmmeter? If the otuptu is a totem pole circuit, or a PNP/NPN complementary driver with no pull-up resisotrs, and built from discrete compoennts so no parasitic diodes, is it certain that an ohmmeter iwll turn on at elast on of the transisotrs? I don't think it is. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 2 14:02:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 20:02:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Composite Black and White monitor dead In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Jul 2, 12 10:18:35 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, > > It is the original version with the knobs at the bottom. Right. SOmewhere I have the Radio Shack service manaul for that. Of ocurse it's the 115V model, but the modifications infolved adding the step-down transformer between the power switch and the input to the rest of the unit and not much else. > > >Now, that TV chassis was, as I mentioend, 115V only. To use it in 230V > >countries, there was a mains tranformer fitted inside the monitor. THis > >is an _isolating_ transofrmer, so the thign is no logner live-chassis. > > Ah ha, I saw the step down there but I didn't realise it was also an > isolating transformer. That has answered a question I had about a "hot > chassis". Yes., The US version is hot chassis (and nasty to work on as a result), the European (and I guess Australian/New Zealand) model is not. > > >With the result that hte video input no longer neeeds an optoisolator. > >The PCB in palce of the IFs stirp, etc, is just a simple transisotr video > >ampliifier. > > Ok. Thanks. I don't know what an optoisolator and IF strip means. As I Ah. I'll explain those termins in aomnet, I think this tells me that you don't need the official service manual yet. I don't think you're stupid, but I do thing you need to learn some more electronics before you can make sense of such manuals. Service manuals are written for people who understand how whatever sort of device works and just need the information on how _this particular one_ works. Te excat details of it, the schematic, parts lists, etc. Service manuals anre not, normally, tutorials in electronics. An alanlogy that might help. If I was servicing a car, I would try to get the factory workshop manau land sue that as my reference. But if we consider chekcing the spark plugs, that sort of manual will tell you where they are, it'll explain any odd thignsi n removign and fitting them (like you have to remove first), it'll give the correct gap and the tighening torque. What it won't do is eplain how to measure nad set the gap, how to use a torque wrench, or anything like that. Now, as for 'IF strip' and 'Optoisolaotr'. Let's cover those in that order. A TV set is basically a special type of radio receiver. At a high level, the incoming signa lfro mteh aerial is ahdnled much as in a radio set, and turned into a composite video signal and an audio signal. The audio signal is amplified and det to the speaker, the composite video signal is processed by the second main part of the TV which is essentially a video monitor. Now, a radio set basically consists of a tunable filter to pick out the signal that you want from all the radio signals out there, amplifiers ot make it large enoguh to be useful and a demodulator to extrace the wanted ifnroamtion from that signal. The problem is the filtering, really, You have to be able to adjust it to pick up different datations, but you then need several filters that can be tuned together, one for each stage of the amplification. Making all those filters come ot the same frequency all alopng the tuning scale is a major problem. The cure is soemthing called a 'Supersonic Heterodyne', normally shortened ot 'Superhet' receiver. In this, the incloming signal is mixed with a signal from an oscillaotr (known as the 'local oscillator') and the beat frequecny which has a frequesnce of the difference between the incoming siangal and hte lcoal oscillator is filtered out, amplified, and used. Now the trick is tha the oscillator frequency is varied when you tune the set. so the differnece frequency is always the same. Thus the fitlers for tht are fixed, they are set at manufacture. Yo can have ans many staegs as you (sensibly) like. The diffenrce frequency is known as the 'Intermediate Frequency' or 'IF' ebcausew it is between the incoming signal and the freuqency of the output of the demodulator (the information you actually want to extract). The amplifiers for this are, not supriisngly called 'IF amplifiers', the whole circuit is commonly known as the 'IF strip'. In the particular TV that was modified to make this monitor, the 'tuner' -- the aerial input circuit, the lcoal oscilaltor and the mixer circuit -- was a separate module fitted ot the case behidn that large blanking plate. It fet the IF signal to the IF amplifiers, which were assembled on a plug-in PCB that fitted into the main chassis. THis PCB also contaiend the demodulator and much of te audio circuitry. THe rest of the chasis was essentialyl a monitor (this layout might be why this particular TV was chosen for the convfersion). The conversion to make this TV into a motnro therefore cosnsited of : Remvoign (or never fitting) the tuner module Removing (or never fitting) the plug-in PCB with IF amplifiers,m demodulator, etc on it. This is the 'IF strip' I refered to Doing the same with those few remaining audio components on the chassis. This inmcluded the volume cotnrol which would have come throug hthe hole labelled 'V' on the front of the cabinet. It was a bit of good fortuen that 'V' also could eb 'video' :-) Finding soem device to feed composite video from the TRS-80 into the remainign 'monitor seciton' of the TV. THe last leads me on to the tem 'opto isolator'. The TV chassis, at least in the US model was directly connected to the mains. Therefore nothign driectly conencted to it could be earthed (groudned). You certianly wouldn;t want a computer where the logic was effecively conencted ot the mains in this way, you couldn't safely connect up a normal priner, for example. So waht is needed is some kind of isolation so that the monitor section can remain connected to the power line but also the computer can be earthed. The way this was done was somethign called an opto-isolator. Conceptally it's very simple/ It's an LED and a phototranssitor so mtht the LED shines on the phototranssitor. It looks like a 6 pin IC. THe more current you pass throug the LED, the more light (actuallly likely to be IR) hits the phototransistor, so that conducts harder too. It's not very linear in tis simplest form, but in this case it doesn't ened to be. The computer can drive the LED side, the phototransistor can be connected to the (hot chassi) monitor section, and the computer's video signal will end up gettign to the monitor. But as the only thing linking them is that tiny beam of light in optosiolator, there is no driect electrical connection. You can eart hthe comptuer with no probkems. AS I said, that's for the 110V model whcih is hot chassis. The 220V modeul has the isolatiing transofmrer on the mains input. It's no longer hot chassis, there is no ened for isolation on the video input. So in this model there is no optoisolator. Just a simple transistor amplfiier circuit. > said, I need to read up about the mode of operations of these things. This > would explain why the 110V schematic doesn't show exactly what is going on > in my monitor...even the AC circuit seems a little different. I'll take >From what I rememember from workign on my Model 1 monitor, the scheamtic of the main part of the chasiss is pretty muc hthe same. The differences are that video inpotu bvoard (which is very differne, on the other hand the 230V oen is some simple you cna trace out a schematic in about 5 minutes) and the isertion of that mains isolating transfoemr. > some pictures to illustrate. At the moment I have verified that the step > down transformer is working ok so 110V is indeed getting to the board. > It's then that the circuit diagram seems to diverge from what I've got in > some ways. I thought that the stuff fed fro mthe 110V inptu was the same in both versions. The rectifier, regualtor, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 2 14:09:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 20:09:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <201207020039.UAA17344@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Jul 1, 12 08:39:40 pm Message-ID: > > > I find that 330 ohms to ground part a bit odd. 327 ohms to Vcc is > > ok; Zilog specs (if I recall correctly) a 330 ohm pullup on the clk > > line. > > Is it not plausible that 330 ohms to ground represents 327 ohms to Vcc > plus three ohms Vcc-to-GND? I would be suporised if this thing drew a steady 1.6A from the 5V line, which would imply that this '3 ohms' is not a fixed resistor. And most of the tiem (read : except for very odd cirucits), things draw less current when yoy measure their resistance with a DMM. Are htese reisstnace measurements essentially the same if you swap the probes round? Also, is this with the device on the PCB or removed? If the former, then I could well beleive that the 'resistance' between the supply lines was 3 ohms... -tony From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 14:54:08 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 20:54:08 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: On 28 June 2012 20:57, Tony Duell wrote: >> > > As am I. People are talking about it like it's the first small form >> > > factor Linux machine. >> >> Price. That's what's exciting about it. > > Fortunately I learnt long ago that it's unwise to spend too little. > >> >> > The Rpi board is only part of what you need. You also need a PSU, >> > keyboard, mouse, USB hub, SD card and some kind of monitor. Even without the >> > last, that would essentailyl double the cost of the device. Please don't >> > tell me I can find those extras in the trash/junk box. I can't. My junk >> > box doesn't contain PC bits. It does contain enugh to build a computer >> > from scatch though. >> >> But most normal people who might be interested *do* have all of those. > > How many people have all those and don't have a computer to conenct them > to? Why but an Rpi rather than just using said computer. > >> >> > And then there's the OS. From what I understnad the Rpi doesn't come wit >> > hthe OS. You have to download it onto an SD card yourself. That's a major >> > problem for me. >> >> If downloading it and putting it onto an SD card is too difficult, then > > It is, if you hae a slow dial-up line and no SD card interface on your PC > (both apply to me). > > It is being hyped as a reincarnation of the BBC micro or whatever. But > from what I remembr, you could buy a BBC micro, plug it into the mains, > plug it into a TV and start using it. You didn't have to pvodie all sorts > of extras, downlaad software, etc to get it to work. > >> > The docuemantion is attrocious. I couldn't find a schematic, or a real >> > hardware manual. >> >> Errm, what consumer electronics comes with a schematic these days? The > > I would argue this is not a consumer device. You mentioned RS and Farnell > as suppliers (and I was annoyed ahvign to navigate past the Rpi pages to > actualyl find the bits I needed), those are not conusmer electronics > companies. > > In any case the fact that noting else comes wit ha schematic is no reason > why this thouldn't >> > > > the extreme cheapness is what is driving people. >> > > That must be it. See below. >> > But as I saidm, watch for hidden costs... >> >> They're not hidden. > > IMHOP they are. People keep quoting the price for the Rpi board, not a > complete working set-up. The thing to remember is that it is not finished yet. This is not the final product. The motto of Open Source is "release early, release often". They shoved the hardware out the door as soon as they could. The OS(es) is(are) not finished, there is no case, there is no ecosystem or infrastructure around it. *Yet.* It will come. Getting the boards out there in the hands of hobbyists was a brilliant way of doing this. As for why the media have not highlighted this: the media is mostly composed of arts/humanities graduates (if that) who don't really know what a computer *is* and certainly do not understand concepts like "operating system" or "Free Software". All they understand is that it is new and cheap and British. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Jul 2 15:21:45 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 13:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:25:28 +0100 (BST) > From: Tony Duell > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, > >>>> at eight bits, while SPI can transfer arbitrary word widths. (this is >>>> handy for, say, ADCs and DACs). >>> >>> Hmm.. I am not convinced. >> >> You're not convinced that SPI supports multiple word widths?? I can >> show you the datasheet of the microcontroller in my current design, >> where it's configurable, if you like. > > No, of course I am, convinced of that. I have read the data sheets for > SPI decvices. I am not convinced that having arbitrary word lengths > (which might not even be a multiple of 4 bits) is an advantage. Its sure a big advantage where speed (and therefore wasted serial bits) is an issue, and this is often exactly where SPI is is used. Medium to some fairly high speed ADCs often use SPI (or a LVDS variant for high speeds), I2C being completely useless for this application. Peter Wallace From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 15:26:45 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 13:26:45 -0700 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: <4FF06773.3229.1BD3F37@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 1, 12 03:06:27 pm, Message-ID: <4FF1A195.29434.4BE419@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2012 at 19:29, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] I wonder what the bneast way to do thsis would be? Off the top of > my head, soem kind of microdoed ssytem or complex stat emachine (which > at this level are the same thing, of course) would be my first guess. A cheap 8-bit microcontroller might arguably be the least expensive way to implement it and allow for minor tweaks without circuit modifications if you're not of the CPLD persuasion. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 15:33:54 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 16:33:54 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 1, 2012, at 3:42 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > [SPI .vs. I2C] > >> I use both regularly. SPI is inferior in some ways, but superior in > > I did say 'IMHO' :-). > >> others. I personally prefer I2C, but there are situation in which SPI >> is a better choice. It is MUCH faster (I2C tops out at 400KHz, I've > > One bvious tiem to use SPI is if the chip you want only has an SPI > interfce :-). > >> seen SPI up in the several-MHz range), and I2C's transfer size is fixed > > True. It depends -- a lot -- on what uou are using it for. Most of the time > I use I2C to transfer small amounts of data to display drivers, low-speed > DACs, etc. It weorks fine for that. I'm late to this discussion because I've been out of town, but I thought I'd at least throw my two cents in. I don't understand why anyone would consider either I2C or SPI "superior" to the other. They have distinct advantages in certain situations, and distinct disadvantages in others. In my line of work (and I use both extensively), I2C is used for low-bandwidth communications with minimal pin count, and SPI is used for high-bandwidth or low-complexity communications when you can sacrifice a few pins. The fact that SPI can be implemented with basically just a few shift registers (or even just one, if it's write-only) gives it a huge advantage over I2C when resources are constrained; it's a lot easier to build an SPI interface out of 74xx parts than it is to build an I2C one. They also take up a lot less space on an FPGA. :-) For the wireless sensor mote system I designed (which is really just a backplane-based computer platform in miniature), I2C is used primarily for maintenance communication between the processors on the stack, while SPI is used for most data traffic (radio, most sensors, etc). The design of the system reflects the constraints the bus gives you; you can have a theoretical maximum of 127 boards in a system, but you can only have 4 SPI chip selects, so not all boards use the SPI (nor do they need to). - Dave From rwiker at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 11:49:08 2012 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 18:49:08 +0200 Subject: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <1A803157-81F5-4BA0-AA9B-DA2A3B7E7E5B@gmail.com> References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com>, <46DF6B8B-28AB-4867-B457-9B26C61E729C@gmail.com> <4FEDF634.6923.F7A18@cclist.sydex.com> <1A803157-81F5-4BA0-AA9B-DA2A3B7E7E5B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C8E410C-A8D5-4A74-9EC9-31EF163405E0@gmail.com> On Jun 30, 2012, at 10:51 , Mark Benson wrote: > On 30 Jun 2012, at 02:38, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 29 Jun 2012 at 20:06, Mark Benson wrote: >> >> >>> Do you get sound from the external speaker port on the back? >> >> No, that's dead silent as well. > > Hmm... Try a PRAM Reset. Reboot the machine holding down Command(Apple)-Option(Alt)-P-R > > Do it 4 or 5 times for safety. It might just be the volume setting int he PRAM is confused. > > If that doesn't fix it it's almost certainly a failure in the audio section on the board, possibly a blown cap something similar. There is also something called a PMU or CUDA reset button somewhere on the motherboard, which may be a last-resort option. You need to be careful about pressing this as it should not be pressed more than once (I vaguely remember something about possibly damaging the motehrboard if you press it more than once). I had a PowerMac G5 which just died after being switched off for a couple of weeks while I was on holiday. As it was bought in Norway, it was covered by a 5 year warranty ("reklamasjonsrett"), so an Apple authorized repair centre spent a lot of time and spare parts trying to get it working again. They eventually gave up, and Apple gave me a brand new Mac Pro as a replacement. A happy ending, but it completely soured me on the G5 PowerMacs. From rwiker at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 12:01:20 2012 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:01:20 +0200 Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay In-Reply-To: <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com> <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com> <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <2873C066-13D1-4352-8B27-16E8E51221F8@gmail.com> On Jun 29, 2012, at 21:04 , TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "mc68010" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 2:44 PM > Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay > > >> Too bad the important bits are missing but, I know how some of you out there love collecting the LISP related stuff. Maybe you could contact the seller and see if they can find them. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Macintosh-II-M5000-Vintage-Mac-Desktop-Computer-System-For-Parts-No-Power-/110907296538 >> >> Here's a quick description http://www.jester.org/Projects/microExplorer/microexplorer.html > > Totally gutted, if you want to save money ask the seller to ship just the TI sticker. ;) > > Interesting... I have a TI microExplorer set in a Mac IIcx (or possibly IIci)... I don't have the sticker, though :-) I bought the board set in 2001 for the princely sum of $3 + sales tax - $3.24 in total, and the nice people at Weird Stuff Warehouse even gave me a big anti-static bag for it. From axelsson at acc.umu.se Mon Jul 2 12:03:58 2012 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 19:03:58 +0200 Subject: Data General Power Supply? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF1D47E.1070701@acc.umu.se> Looks like the power supply for a Clariion disk rack. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clariion-Storage-Company-EMC-Power-Supply-005045508-/221042178727?pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item337723faa7 I have 15-20 pieces that I pulled from unused systems a couple of years ago. Each power supply powers 10 hard disks via a back plane. Two supplies sits side by side behind the disks, one rotated 180 degrees. The white contact in the back powers the fans and the fan cassette with three fans connects to both power supplies. It's one of the most well designed systems I've ever seen. Everything seems to be redundant and hot swappable. The supplies I have doesn't have the white (ground?) conductors to the edge connector. I have some pictures if someone is interested in it. If anyone on this side of the Atlantic want one or many, just let me know. I'm located in Sweden. I also have distribution boxes, UPS and fan cassettes. /G?ran Jonathan Katz skrev 2012-06-30 03:20: > Folks, > > I have happened upon a fairly nice-sized Data General Power Supply > board. It's about 8" square with 2 x 120-pin plug connector the length > of the board. It says "650W AC autoranging power supply, (C) 1996 Data > General 107003838_02/04" and has a very tiny printed label with a part > number and serial number. The part number I've made out as 665643739, > although the printing is so tiny it could be 885643739. My wife says > 005043739. Google turns up nothing. > > I actually have two. These are essentially NOS parts and seem unused/clean. > > Here's a photo: http://i.imgur.com/ZyYYq.jpg > > Is there any interest in these? What are they? > > -- > -Jon > Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN. > From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Jul 2 16:31:52 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 17:31:52 -0400 Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF1DBB7.90602@neurotica.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <201207020022.UAA17159@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <20120702180951.Horde.yG4YNKQd9PdP8cfPRBlFijA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <4FF176C3.6630.83C084@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF1DBB7.90602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF21348.8070700@verizon.net> On 07/02/2012 01:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/02/2012 01:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Output -> VCC 5.23 MOhm >>> Output -> GND 5.20 MOhm >>> VCC -> Output 11.21 MOhm >>> GND -> Output 11.20 MOhm >> Interesting--so they're apparently using a "naked" totem-pole output >> stage with no pullup. Interesting--I thought that Zilog always >> specified at least a 10K pullup on the clock input. >> >> Rules were made to be broken, I guess. > I haven't gone and checked, but I do recall pretty clearly that they > specify a 330 ohm pullup on the clock line of a Z80, not 10K. > > -Dave > All the circuits (including the Zilog manuals) I've seen use a 330 ohm or CMOS (rail to rail drive), or something like the 75452 drivers. The key thing is the clock must get to 4.75V nominal (4.4V minimum) with a reasonable rise time and fall times for the clock speed. Most TTl will not go much above 3.4-3.6V without help (pull up). Allison From jon at jonworld.com Mon Jul 2 16:35:33 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 17:35:33 -0400 Subject: Data General Power Supply? In-Reply-To: <4FF1D47E.1070701@acc.umu.se> References: <4FF1D47E.1070701@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:03 PM, G?ran Axelsson wrote: > Looks like the power supply for a Clariion disk rack. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clariion-Storage-Company-EMC-Power-Supply-005045508-/221042178727?pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item337723faa7 > > I have 15-20 pieces that I pulled from unused systems a couple of years ago. > Each power supply powers 10 hard disks via a back plane. Two supplies sits Oh, wow! Thanks. It certainly looks like it would fit in that box! From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 17:02:21 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 17:02:21 -0500 Subject: Teletype/Dataspeed Model 40 Message-ID: You never do know what you'll find on Craigslist. This time my bad terminal habit gained another 200lbs of trouble with the acquisition of two very interesting Teletype Model 40 CRT terminals, attractively badged as the Bell System Dataspeed 40. The accompanying printer came with them, as well as two very thick volumes of the Shop Manual for these machines (which may be the same as what is already on Bitsavers - I will check.) A very clean KSR33 Teletype was thrown in to round out the deal. Here are the initial pics (shop manuals are stuck somewhere in the car, will add them soon:) https://picasaweb.google.com/102190732096693814506/TeletypePickup Not much info out there on these terms. In fact, given the number of labeled cards inside them, I'm not even sure they're strictly terminals. I have read about local storage options, cluster controllers and other peripherals which suggest that TT or Bell may have tried to sell them as an office computing solution as well as terminals. All I know is they are extremely heavy, probably thanks to the massive PSUs in the bases. The CRTs slide off the two stalks in the base, which contain the power and signal connectors. The keyboards detach from the front of the base as well. Very modular, novel design - and essential if one was to have any hope of lifting these things. The "printer" is only a shell. I thought at first it may have been harvested for parts (I was told they came from the estate of a deceased IL Bell repair instructor) but given the connections inside the enclosure, I am wondering if it was designed to accept a standard Teletype mech. Of course, any knowledge out there that can be added here is appreciated. (No I haven't powered them on yet...) -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org Mon Jul 2 17:08:01 2012 From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org (cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:08:01 -0300 Subject: Working with accounts Message-ID: We have an excellent opportunity for an apprentice applicant to join a rapidly expanding company. An at home Key Account Manager Position (Ref: 92552-205/6HR) is a great opportunity for stay at home parents or anyone who wants to work in the comfort of their own home. This is a genuine offer and not to be confused with scams! The successful candidate must have the ability to handle calls efficiently whilst maintaining the highest levels of customer service and being courteous. Applicants must have an excellent telephone manner, have a friendly approach, excellent communication skills and be computer literate. You must have the ability to type and talk at the same time to customers, as you will be taking customer details over the phone and inputting data onto company database. Requirements: computer with Internet access, valid email address, good typing skills. If you fit the above description and meet the requirements, please apply to this ad stating your location. You will be processing orders from your computer. How much you earn is up to you. The average is in the region of US$600- US$750.00 per week, depending on whether you work full or part time. If you would like more information, please contact us stating where you are located and our job reference number - 92552-205/6HR. Please only SERIOUS applicants. Our contacts: Josue at careerin-finance.com Thank You! From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 17:18:40 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 17:18:40 -0500 Subject: Working with accounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: spam? On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 5:08 PM, wrote: > We have an excellent opportunity for an apprentice applicant to join a > rapidly expanding company. > > An at home Key Account Manager Position (Ref: 92552-205/6HR) is a great > opportunity for stay at home parents or anyone who wants to work in the > comfort of their own home. > > This is a genuine offer and not to be confused with scams! > The successful candidate must have the ability to handle calls efficiently > whilst maintaining the highest levels of customer service and being > courteous. > Applicants must have an excellent telephone manner, have a friendly > approach, excellent communication skills and be computer literate. > You must have the ability to type and talk at the same time to customers, > as you will be taking customer details over the phone and inputting data > onto company database. > > Requirements: computer with Internet access, valid email address, good > typing skills. > If you fit the above description and meet the requirements, please apply > to this ad stating your location. > > You will be processing orders from your computer. How much you earn is up > to you. > The average is in the region of US$600- US$750.00 per week, depending on > whether you work full or part time. > > If you would like more information, please contact us stating where you > are located and our job reference number - 92552-205/6HR. > Please only SERIOUS applicants. > > Our contacts: Josue at careerin-finance.com > > Thank You! > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 17:23:10 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 15:23:10 -0700 Subject: Teletype/Dataspeed Model 40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF1BCDE.20023.B678F3@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2012 at 17:02, Jason T wrote: > The "printer" is only a shell. I thought at first it may have been > harvested for parts (I was told they came from the estate of a > deceased IL Bell repair instructor) but given the connections inside > the enclosure, I am wondering if it was designed to accept a standard > Teletype mech. No, the model 40 Dataspeed printer was a band printer with a bank of solenoid-driven hammers behind the band, one per column. Standard tractor-feed forms. It could print a full 132 columns wide at a time. I seem to recall that the rated speed was 150 LPM, not bad at all for a tabletop unit. It really needed that soundproof enclosure-- it was VERY loud without it. A couple of third-party vendors bought the basic mech from Teletype and packaged it in their own enclosures with a standard Centronics or Dataproducts interface. I still have some old documents printed on one--the print quality is quite high. I still have the schematics for the thing somewhere. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 17:33:33 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 15:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Working with accounts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120702153309.T29381@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Jul 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > spam? and scam From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 17:53:25 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 15:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Z80 CLK DRV In-Reply-To: <4FF16307.3132.36A8CC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120701172833.Horde.JdWtOKQd9PdP8GyhNfAitkA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <4FF0D8F6.9010602@neurotica.com>, <4FF16307.3132.36A8CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120702155222.W29381@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Intel was pretty wild and wooly back in the 70s. I recall once > hearing a stream of invective coming from the office next to mine. > It seems that the guy had been presented with samples of the new > Intel 8202 DRAM controller and the datasheets and app notes. If you > took Intel's datasheet numbers and crunched them through the > reference design that Intel provided, worst-case required DRAM with a > negative access time... and the current inventory quantites for those were also negative? From spc at conman.org Mon Jul 2 17:53:51 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 18:53:51 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > As a digression, normally, assuming programming in C, you'd place a > > "unsigned short" variable at the address of the SPI data register. (I'll > > AFAIK sizeof(unsigned short) is not defined anywhere :-). I'm not sure I follow you here. In C, you can indeed do a sizeof(unsigned short) and get back the size (in characters) of a short int (with the size in bits of a character defined by CHAR_BIT). > > have none of that uncivilized "uint32_t" bullshit that these kids have > > dreamed up...and, surprise, my code is VERY portable) Well, that "uint32_t" crap is *very* useful for networking protocols or binary file parsing. -spc (I use uint32_t at work, but then again, I have to deal with network protocols and binary file formats ... ) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 2 18:26:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 19:26:37 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 06:53 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >>> have none of that uncivilized "uint32_t" bullshit that these kids have >>> dreamed up...and, surprise, my code is VERY portable) > > Well, that "uint32_t" crap is *very* useful for networking protocols or > binary file parsing. > > -spc (I use uint32_t at work, but then again, I have to deal with network > protocols and binary file formats ... ) I work all day, every day, with network protocols and binary file formats. On every platform I work on, and indeed every platform I've *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and unsigned int has been 32. That includes the 8-bitters as well. The idea is good, but the syntactic sugar of excessive typedefs where they just aren't needed (and portability to 95% of architectures isn't impacted) is just pointless overcomplexification. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 2 18:28:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 19:28:35 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF22EA3.3030706@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 02:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> at eight bits, while SPI can transfer arbitrary word widths. (this is >>>> handy for, say, ADCs and DACs). >>> >>> Hmm.. I am not convinced. >> >> You're not convinced that SPI supports multiple word widths?? I can >> show you the datasheet of the microcontroller in my current design, >> where it's configurable, if you like. > > No, of course I am, convinced of that. I have read the data sheets for > SPI decvices. I am not convinced that having arbitrary word lengths > (which might not even be a multiple of 4 bits) is an advantage. You're certainly entitled to not be convinced, but as I sit here this evening writing a driver for an SPI-interfaced flash chip, literally in the window next to this one, it's quite useful. >> As a digression, normally, assuming programming in C, you'd place a >> "unsigned short" variable at the address of the SPI data register. (I'll > > AFAIK sizeof(unsigned short) is not defined anywhere :-). (looks around office, sees six different architectures where it's sixteen bits) Huh? It's pretty well-defined here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 18:23:04 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:23:04 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> On Jul 2, 2012, at 6:53 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: >>> As a digression, normally, assuming programming in C, you'd place a >>> "unsigned short" variable at the address of the SPI data register. (I'll >> >> AFAIK sizeof(unsigned short) is not defined anywhere :-). > > I'm not sure I follow you here. In C, you can indeed do a > > sizeof(unsigned short) > > and get back the size (in characters) of a short int (with the size in bits > of a character defined by CHAR_BIT). But it's not defined in a standard, which is a problem. It could be 128 bits when it's compiled for all you know. >>> have none of that uncivilized "uint32_t" bullshit that these kids have >>> dreamed up...and, surprise, my code is VERY portable) > > Well, that "uint32_t" crap is *very* useful for networking protocols or > binary file parsing. And elsewhere. I can't count the number of places crypto code broke on my first-gen Opteron system under Linux because the folks who wrote the standard MD5 code assumed that "unsigned long" was always 32 bits. They didn't even have a halfway decent excuse, since alpha and sparc64 had been around quite a while. When the number of bits matters, uint32_t and friends are important. When the size doesn't matter (e.g. if I really want the largest int reasonably possible), I'll use "unsigned long" and friends. I find that that is seldom the case, usually because I've at least assumed a minimum or maximum out of range of some reasonable variation of "int" or "long". A corollary: uint32_t and friends are bad ideas for adding pointer offsets, and I've seen stupid code using that, too (which breaks really badly on some 64-bit code). That's why we have ptrdiff_t. stdint.h is your friend, and anyone not implementing it (*cough* MSVC *cough*) is not. - Dave From schoedel at kw.igs.net Mon Jul 2 18:42:56 2012 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:42:56 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120702233658.M44189@kw.igs.net> On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 19:26:37 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote > On every platform I work on, and indeed every platform I've > *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and unsigned int has > been 32. I own one where int is 16 bits, have worked on a compiler for one where int is 24 bits, and have used one where short is 32 bits and int 64. There is reason for the Tenth Commandment. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 2 19:00:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 20:00:37 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120702233658.M44189@kw.igs.net> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> <20120702233658.M44189@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <4FF23625.2040003@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 07:42 PM, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: >> On every platform I work on, and indeed every platform I've >> *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and unsigned int has >> been 32. > > I own one where int is 16 bits, have worked on a compiler for one where int is > 24 bits, and have used one where short is 32 bits and int 64. There is reason > for the Tenth Commandment. Yes, so have I. But I'm a commercial embedded systems developer (one who generally doesn't use DSPs!), and I don't work on any of "those" platforms. Literally EVERYTHING I USE has 32-bit ints and 16-bit shorts, and that has been the case for upwards of thirty years. From my point of view here, I see absolutely no reason to add a level of indirection to the native compiler data type when it gives me (ME) no benefit. This has got to be the most corner-case-obsessed group of people I have ever met. ;) (don't get me wrong, I find it fun!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 19:03:54 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 01:03:54 +0100 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120702233658.M44189@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > schoedel at kw.igs.net > Sent: 03 July 2012 00:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, > > > On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 19:26:37 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote > > On every platform I work on, and indeed every platform I've > > *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and unsigned int > > has been 32. > Honeywell H6000/L66/DSP8 (and several others) have 36 bit integers... > I own one where int is 16 bits, have worked on a compiler for > one where int is 24 bits, and have used one where short is 32 > bits and int 64. There is reason for the Tenth Commandment. > > -- > Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 19:09:55 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 01:09:55 +0100 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF23625.2040003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 03 July 2012 01:01 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, > > > On 07/02/2012 07:42 PM, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: > >> On every platform I work on, and indeed every platform I've > >> *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and > unsigned int > >> has been 32. > > > > I own one where int is 16 bits, have worked on a compiler for one > > where int is 24 bits, and have used one where short is 32 > bits and int > > 64. There is reason for the Tenth Commandment. > > Yes, so have I. But I'm a commercial embedded systems > developer (one who generally doesn't use DSPs!), and I don't > work on any of "those" platforms. Literally EVERYTHING I USE > has 32-bit ints and 16-bit shorts, and that has been the case > for upwards of thirty years. From my point of view here, I > see absolutely no reason to add a level of indirection to the > native compiler data type when it gives me (ME) no benefit. > I think thats very true for your environment, but most mortals are woking in areas where 64-but computing is becoming prevelant and we may get caught, although at present things seem to have been done sensibly... > This has got to be the most corner-case-obsessed group of > people I have ever met. ;) (don't get me wrong, I find it fun!) > I think so long as you understand the risks its OK. Again many don't > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 19:10:32 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 20:10:32 -0400 Subject: Chicago help requested (update) Message-ID: At this point, one of the mainframe list guys has offered to pick up the stuff, but I am waiting for confirmation. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 19:17:19 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 17:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120702233658.M44189@kw.igs.net> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> <20120702233658.M44189@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <20120702171152.Q29381@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 19:26:37 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote > On every platform I work on, and indeed every platform I've > *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and unsigned int has > been 32. 25 years ago, it was not uncommon to have unsigned int be 16 bits, and unsigned short be 8 bits; long was 32 bits I'm not sure that all of the compilers in those days HAD an unsigned long - notice that the file size and maximum number of bytes on a drive in FAT16 were SIGNED 32 bit numbers!) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 2 19:25:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 20:25:35 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF23BFF.7060908@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 08:03 PM, Dave wrote: >>> On every platform I work on, and indeed every platform I've >>> *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and unsigned int >>> has been 32. >> > > Honeywell H6000/L66/DSP8 (and several others) have 36 bit integers... Sure. Do you see a lot of new development in C going on on those machines lately? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 2 19:32:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 20:32:41 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF23DA9.7040702@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 08:09 PM, Dave wrote: >>>> On every platform I work on, and indeed every platform I've >>>> *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and >> unsigned int >>>> has been 32. >>> >>> I own one where int is 16 bits, have worked on a compiler for one >>> where int is 24 bits, and have used one where short is 32 >> bits and int >>> 64. There is reason for the Tenth Commandment. >> >> Yes, so have I. But I'm a commercial embedded systems >> developer (one who generally doesn't use DSPs!), and I don't >> work on any of "those" platforms. Literally EVERYTHING I USE >> has 32-bit ints and 16-bit shorts, and that has been the case >> for upwards of thirty years. From my point of view here, I >> see absolutely no reason to add a level of indirection to the >> native compiler data type when it gives me (ME) no benefit. > > I think thats very true for your environment, but most mortals are woking in > areas where 64-but computing is becoming prevelant and we may get caught, > although at present things seem to have been done sensibly... Hmm. My two development platforms are x86_64 and UltraSPARC-III+, both of which are 64-bit. An int is 32 bits, and a short is 16 bits on both, by default. My targets are most commonly AVR and ARM7. Ints there are 32 bits and shorts are 16 bits as well. >> This has got to be the most corner-case-obsessed group of >> people I have ever met. ;) (don't get me wrong, I find it fun!) > > I think so long as you understand the risks its OK. Again many don't And here's the crux of the matter. I agree 100%. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 2 19:57:08 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 17:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF23BFF.7060908@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jul 2, 12 08:25:35 pm" Message-ID: <201207030057.q630v8o113697040@floodgap.com> > > Honeywell H6000/L66/DSP8 (and several others) have 36 bit integers... > > Sure. Do you see a lot of new development in C going on on those > machines lately? The downside of that otherwise rational argument is soon they'll be saying that about minority architectures we actually care about (PowerPC comes to mind). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. -- Leonardo da Vinci ----------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 2 20:05:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 21:05:17 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <201207030057.q630v8o113697040@floodgap.com> References: <201207030057.q630v8o113697040@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FF2454D.6050708@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 08:57 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Honeywell H6000/L66/DSP8 (and several others) have 36 bit integers... >> >> Sure. Do you see a lot of new development in C going on on those >> machines lately? > > The downside of that otherwise rational argument is soon they'll be saying > that about minority architectures we actually care about (PowerPC comes to > mind). Sure, but do you really think that "int" and "short" will come to mean something different on those platforms in the future? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 20:08:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 18:08:15 -0700 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF23BFF.7060908@neurotica.com> References: , <4FF23BFF.7060908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF1E38F.1908.14D9B32@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2012 at 20:25, Dave McGuire wrote: > Sure. Do you see a lot of new development in C going on on those > machines lately? No, but I suspect a resurgence might occur in some of the old ideas. One such is that as word length increases beyond a certain limit (say, 64 bits), lareg *integers* are less important, particularly if they exceed the width of an address. In that case, it makes sense to treat integers as a special case of floating point. Thus, in a 64-bit machine, an integer may have a range of only +/-2^47-1 (48 bits); a short, only 24 bits; a long 96 bits. It was thus on machines as late as the ETA-10 (I don't recall if Cray ever adopted that convention) and I wouldn't be surprised to find a modern system that operated that way. And one of these days, I expect to see a variable-word length CPU again. Variable-length BCD arithmetic might be considered a boon by the financial people. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 20:09:25 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 21:09:25 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF23DA9.7040702@neurotica.com> References: <4FF23DA9.7040702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <94FA373A-0CBA-4791-AECD-79B620C3934F@gmail.com> On Jul 2, 2012, at 20:32, Dave McGuire wrote: > > My targets are most commonly AVR and ARM7. Ints there are 32 bits and > shorts are 16 bits as well. Err... What AVR toolchain? GCC has always used 16 bits for int on AVR, AFAIK (and I've had to write assembly interfaces to my C code). I believe they call out "int not 16 bits" as a specific gotcha, though I'll have to look that up when I'm not on my phone. - Dave From spc at conman.org Mon Jul 2 20:10:11 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 21:10:11 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120703011010.GC31814@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: > On 07/02/2012 06:53 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > >>> have none of that uncivilized "uint32_t" bullshit that these kids have > >>> dreamed up...and, surprise, my code is VERY portable) > > > > Well, that "uint32_t" crap is *very* useful for networking protocols or > > binary file parsing. > > > > -spc (I use uint32_t at work, but then again, I have to deal with network > > protocols and binary file formats ... ) > > I work all day, every day, with network protocols and binary file > formats. On every platform I work on, and indeed every platform I've > *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and unsigned int has > been 32. That includes the 8-bitters as well. The idea is good, but > the syntactic sugar of excessive typedefs where they just aren't needed > (and portability to 95% of architectures isn't impacted) is just > pointless overcomplexification. Well, at work, we develop code that has to run on both 32 and 64 bit systems (Pentium and SPARC, so I get the fun of byte swapping too!). I don't even know what the size of a 'long' is on the 64 bit system (but I don't really have to care when I can select uint32_t or uint64_t as needed). I learned C during the large 16-bit/32-bit switch (MS-DOS) and there, the sizes of nearly *everything* changed on what memory model was used ... -spc (If I recall correctly, there were several different compilers for 68k based systems where an 'int' could be 16 bits or 32 bits ... ) From spc at conman.org Mon Jul 2 20:18:22 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 21:18:22 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120703011822.GD31814@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great David Riley once stated: > On Jul 2, 2012, at 6:53 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > > It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > >>> As a digression, normally, assuming programming in C, you'd place a > >>> "unsigned short" variable at the address of the SPI data register. (I'll > >> > >> AFAIK sizeof(unsigned short) is not defined anywhere :-). > > > > I'm not sure I follow you here. In C, you can indeed do a > > > > sizeof(unsigned short) > > > > and get back the size (in characters) of a short int (with the size in bits > > of a character defined by CHAR_BIT). > > But it's not defined in a standard, which is a problem. It could be 128 > bits when it's compiled for all you know. Um .. it *IS* defined in a standard---the ANSI C standard: ... Their implementation defined values shall be equal or greater in magnitude (absolute value) to those shown, with the same sign. CHAR_BIT - number of bits for smallest object that is not a bit-field (byte) CHAR_BIT 8 (C Standard, section 5.2.4.2.1) > >>> have none of that uncivilized "uint32_t" bullshit that these kids have > >>> dreamed up...and, surprise, my code is VERY portable) > > > > Well, that "uint32_t" crap is *very* useful for networking protocols or > > binary file parsing. > > And elsewhere. I can't count the number of places crypto code broke > on my first-gen Opteron system under Linux because the folks who > wrote the standard MD5 code assumed that "unsigned long" was always > 32 bits. They didn't even have a halfway decent excuse, since alpha > and sparc64 had been around quite a while. True. I've been playing around with viola [1] and it *barely* works on a modern system and won't at all on a 64 bit system, due to the "an int is a pointer is a long" mentality of the code. Ick. -spc (It looks like it started out life as K&R C, with some small token attempts towards ANSI C ... ) [1] One of the first graphical web browsers from around 1992. It has a number of concepts which are in use today, including style sheets (not compatible with CSS), scripting (its own language, not JavaScript) and some that are not, such as the ability to traverse the object model/source code (like Smalltalk or Hypercard environments). From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Jul 2 21:02:55 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 19:02:55 -0700 Subject: TI Microexplorer Mac II on ebay In-Reply-To: <2873C066-13D1-4352-8B27-16E8E51221F8@gmail.com> References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com>, <4FED8942.25650.E98109@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FEDEE97.2000906@bitsavers.org> <4FED8F52.31605.1012EFD@cclist.sydex.com> <4FEDF7A8.6050004@gmail.com> <4AF024E36F704F5287CDF807AC97D776@hd2600xt6a04f7> <2873C066-13D1-4352-8B27-16E8E51221F8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FF252CF.7050609@mail.msu.edu> On 7/2/2012 10:01 AM, Raymond Wiker wrote: > > Interesting... I have a TI microExplorer set in a Mac IIcx (or possibly IIci)... I don't have the sticker, though :-) > > I bought the board set in 2001 for the princely sum of $3 + sales tax - $3.24 in total, and the nice people at Weird Stuff Warehouse even gave me a big anti-static bag for it. > So jealous :). I've been looking for one of those for years (or any TI Lisp Machine, for that matter). I'll give you $6 for it :). - Josh From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jul 2 21:20:58 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 22:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <201207030220.WAA29787@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Well, that "uint32_t" crap is *very* useful for networking protocols > or binary file parsing. ...until you want to port to an architecture that doesn't have a 32-bit data type. I would much prefer to use uint_atleast_32_t (or however it's spelled) and pack/unpack the octet stream explicitly. Significantly more portable, clear, and future-proof. Or at least that's how I see it. For hardware drivers, which IIRC is where this came from, I see little to no real difference between (say) unsigned short and uint16_t for these purposes; the portability demands for hardware drivers are rather different. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 2 21:27:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 22:27:08 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <94FA373A-0CBA-4791-AECD-79B620C3934F@gmail.com> References: <4FF23DA9.7040702@neurotica.com> <94FA373A-0CBA-4791-AECD-79B620C3934F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FF2587C.8040001@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 09:09 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Jul 2, 2012, at 20:32, Dave McGuire > wrote: >> >> My targets are most commonly AVR and ARM7. Ints there are 32 bits >> and shorts are 16 bits as well. > > Err... What AVR toolchain? GCC has always used 16 bits for int on > AVR, AFAIK (and I've had to write assembly interfaces to my C code). > I believe they call out "int not 16 bits" as a specific gotcha, > though I'll have to look that up when I'm not on my phone. This is gcc v4.4.6. I don't recall it having been a (toolchain) compilation option. I will verify, but I'm porting a few bits of formerly AVR-based C code to ARM7 right now, and not running into any issues. There, my predecessor used madness like "u08" (like a friggin' byte is ever gonna be anything else!) and "u16". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 2 21:28:05 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 22:28:05 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF1E38F.1908.14D9B32@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4FF23BFF.7060908@neurotica.com> <4FF1E38F.1908.14D9B32@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF258B5.9040109@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 09:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Sure. Do you see a lot of new development in C going on on those >> machines lately? > > No, but I suspect a resurgence might occur in some of the old ideas. > One such is that as word length increases beyond a certain limit > (say, 64 bits), lareg *integers* are less important, particularly if > they exceed the width of an address. > > In that case, it makes sense to treat integers as a special case of > floating point. Thus, in a 64-bit machine, an integer may have a > range of only +/-2^47-1 (48 bits); a short, only 24 bits; a long 96 > bits. > > It was thus on machines as late as the ETA-10 (I don't recall if Cray > ever adopted that convention) and I wouldn't be surprised to find a > modern system that operated that way. > > And one of these days, I expect to see a variable-word length CPU > again. Variable-length BCD arithmetic might be considered a boon by > the financial people. That would be fantastic. And if my embedded (typically industrial control and communications) code is ever ported to any of those, I'll be doing some editing! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 2 21:30:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 22:30:32 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703011010.GC31814@brevard.conman.org> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> <20120703011010.GC31814@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4FF25948.6060803@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 09:10 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: > Well, at work, we develop code that has to run on both 32 and 64 bit > systems (Pentium and SPARC, so I get the fun of byte swapping too!). I > don't even know what the size of a 'long' is on the 64 bit system (but I > don't really have to care when I can select uint32_t or uint64_t as needed). I *do not* envy you there. ;) > I learned C during the large 16-bit/32-bit switch (MS-DOS) and there, the > sizes of nearly *everything* changed on what memory model was used ... I learned it a hair earlier than that (386s were just hitting the streets) but never did much development (in C anyway) in DOS. I was mostly 68K at the time. > -spc (If I recall correctly, there were several different compilers for > 68k based systems where an 'int' could be 16 bits or 32 bits ... ) I don't recall any of those...any recollection of which ones? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jul 2 21:33:19 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 22:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF22EA3.3030706@neurotica.com> References: <4FF22EA3.3030706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201207030233.WAA29943@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> AFAIK sizeof(unsigned short) is not defined anywhere :-). > (looks around office, sees six different architectures where it's > sixteen bits) > Huh? It's pretty well-defined here. Once upon a time, all the world was a VAX running 4.x. Then Sun happened, and lots of code that "worked everywhere" broke. Later, all the world was a 386/486/Pentium, SPARC, PowerPC, etc. Then amd64 and sparc64 happened and lots of code that "worked everywhere" broke. Write to what the language promises, not what happens to be popular today. Those who have to maintain your code in the future will thank you. Or don't. Those who fix it in the future will thank you for their job security. Or, of course, you could just not even pretend to write portably. Sometimes that's a right answer; for example, when writing a driver for an SBus device, I have no problem assuming I'm on a SPARC. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 2 21:58:50 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 19:58:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sizeof(weird_things) was Re: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America In-Reply-To: <20120703011822.GD31814@brevard.conman.org> from Sean Conner at "Jul 2, 12 09:18:22 pm" Message-ID: <201207030258.q632wooO15401054@floodgap.com> > > > > AFAIK sizeof(unsigned short) is not defined anywhere :-). > > > > > > I'm not sure I follow you here. In C, you can indeed do a > > > > > > sizeof(unsigned short) > > > > > > and get back the size (in characters) of a short int (with the size in > > > bits of a character defined by CHAR_BIT). > > > > But it's not defined in a standard, which is a problem. It could be 128 > > bits when it's compiled for all you know. > > Um .. it *IS* defined in a standard---the ANSI C standard: > > ... Their implementation defined values shall be equal or greater in > magnitude (absolute value) to those shown, with the same sign. > > CHAR_BIT - number of bits for smallest object that is not a > bit-field (byte) > > CHAR_BIT 8 > > (C Standard, section 5.2.4.2.1) Here's a fun one. Up unti Firefox 10, Mozilla used a manufactured internal type called PRBool which essentially was unsigned char. At that point, they decided to switch all usage of PRBool to "native" C++ bool. Guess what happened on those systems where Boolean didn't map to an 8-bit quantity? Guess what big-endian architecture I am a large proponent of was one of those architectures? (For bonus points, what is sizeof(bool) on this architecture?) Fortunately they only made this assumption a few places, but figuring out what broke was maddeningly fiddly. Most places were memset()s that failed to fully initialize a block of memory, leading to unpredictable behaviour. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. -- Isaac Asimov ---------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 2 22:41:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 23:41:22 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <201207030233.WAA29943@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4FF22EA3.3030706@neurotica.com> <201207030233.WAA29943@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4FF269E2.4030805@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 10:33 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> AFAIK sizeof(unsigned short) is not defined anywhere :-). > >> (looks around office, sees six different architectures where it's >> sixteen bits) > >> Huh? It's pretty well-defined here. > > Once upon a time, all the world was a VAX running 4.x. Then Sun > happened, and lots of code that "worked everywhere" broke. > > Later, all the world was a 386/486/Pentium, SPARC, PowerPC, etc. Then > amd64 and sparc64 happened and lots of code that "worked everywhere" > broke. > > Write to what the language promises, not what happens to be popular > today. Those who have to maintain your code in the future will thank > you. > > Or don't. Those who fix it in the future will thank you for their job > security. > > Or, of course, you could just not even pretend to write portably. > Sometimes that's a right answer; for example, when writing a driver for > an SBus device, I have no problem assuming I'm on a SPARC. I'm writing device drivers and comm protocols for industrial control systems. These boards will be made by the hundreds of thousands and will never run any other processor. End of story. Yes, I've laughed at such short-sightedness before, but in this case, it is 100% true. Further, code I wrote 25 years ago in C, using "unsigned int" and "unsigned short" all over the place, works just friggin' fine. And that stuff is NOT embedded industrial control code...it's APPLICATION code. It now runs beautifully on 64-bit systems, and I haven't touched it in two decades. Do not make the mistake of assuming that I don't know this language, and don't make the mistake of assuming that anyone who doesn't use this "uint32_t" noise is automatically writing inherently non-portable code. I know *you* know C well enough to know better. Be aware that I do as well, because we've probably been doing it just about as long. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 2 22:56:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 20:56:15 -0700 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF258B5.9040109@neurotica.com> References: , <4FF1E38F.1908.14D9B32@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF258B5.9040109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF20AEF.30011.1E7CB7D@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2012 at 22:28, Dave McGuire wrote: > That would be fantastic. And if my embedded (typically industrial > control and communications) code is ever ported to any of those, I'll > be doing some editing! Well, the NEC V-series did have instructions for variable-length packed BCD add/subtract/compare up to 254 digits, but sadly, no multiply/divide. So it's not that far from current architectures. At least one company (http://www.silminds.com/) specializes in decimal add-ons to existing architectures and decimal IP cores. Must be some money there... The STAR-100 had BCD add/subtract/multiply/divide of packed decimal numbers up to 65Kbytes in length (that's 2 digits per byte). To date, it's the only hardware that I've seen that carried BCD arithmetic to such lengths. Enough even for the most ambitious hedge fund manager... --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jul 2 23:15:43 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 00:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF269E2.4030805@neurotica.com> References: <4FF22EA3.3030706@neurotica.com> <201207030233.WAA29943@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FF269E2.4030805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201207030415.AAA01072@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Or, of course, you could just not even pretend to write portably. >> Sometimes that's a right answer; [...] > I'm writing device drivers and comm protocols for industrial control > systems. These boards will be made by the hundreds of thousands and > will never run any other processor. Yup, that is one of those "sometimes". Or, at least, it can be; I've seen "it'll never run on anything else" code ported to the next hardware rev with great pain often enough that I'd be hesitant to write that way myself, but sometimes such porting is unlikely enough that paying the cost for it if-and-when is preferable to paying the immediate costs of preparing for it now. And you are the one in a position to estimate those things in this case, not me. > Further, code I wrote 25 years ago in C, using "unsigned int" and > "unsigned short" all over the place, works just friggin' fine. Yeah, me too. Well, some of it; I've perpetrated enough disasters in my time.... > Do not make the mistake of assuming that I don't know this language, > and don't make the mistake of assuming that anyone who doesn't use > this "uint32_t" noise is automatically writing inherently > non-portable code. No, I don't make either of those assumptions. Nor am I writing specifically to you in most of the arguments I make in this thread. Portability is a matter of degree, not an absolute all-or-nothing thing; neither is it a thing that can be conjured up by mechanical application of any rules (like "use uint*_t") or wrecked by ignoring them. It requires awareness of what the language does and doesn't promise and thought about how that interacts with the assumptions your code is making. Not that I think _you_ need to be told any of this. But others reading this thread, whether now or in the archives...well, some of them probably don't either. But some of them likely do. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jul 2 23:47:47 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 00:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF2587C.8040001@neurotica.com> References: <4FF23DA9.7040702@neurotica.com> <94FA373A-0CBA-4791-AECD-79B620C3934F@gmail.com> <4FF2587C.8040001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201207030447.AAA01333@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > There, my predecessor used madness like "u08" (like a friggin' byte > is ever gonna be anything else!) and "u16". I certainly hope a day will come (though perhaps not for your purposes) when a byte is not necessarily 8 bits. (16 is perhaps the most likely next size, but forever's a long time; I don't expect bytes to remain at 16 bits, or any other size, forever either.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spc at conman.org Mon Jul 2 23:49:44 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 00:49:44 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF25948.6060803@neurotica.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> <20120703011010.GC31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF25948.6060803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120703044944.GE31814@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: > On 07/02/2012 09:10 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: > > Well, at work, we develop code that has to run on both 32 and 64 bit > > systems (Pentium and SPARC, so I get the fun of byte swapping too!). I > > don't even know what the size of a 'long' is on the 64 bit system (but I > > don't really have to care when I can select uint32_t or uint64_t as needed). > > I *do not* envy you there. ;) It hasn't been that bad. In fact, the testing tools I wrote (that's my job---to test the code the other developers write) were more portable than the code I was testing! (our lead developer has this insane embedded mindset where I swear he thinks we're writing our code for 1MHz 6502s instead of 64bit multicore SPARC but that's a rant for another time; he didn't bother with byte swapping (because every cycle is sacred) on the network protocols because, well, hey, we're using only SPARCs, until that wasn't the case). > > I learned C during the large 16-bit/32-bit switch (MS-DOS) and there, the > > sizes of nearly *everything* changed on what memory model was used ... > > I learned it a hair earlier than that (386s were just hitting the > streets) but never did much development (in C anyway) in DOS. I was > mostly 68K at the time. > > > -spc (If I recall correctly, there were several different compilers for > > 68k based systems where an 'int' could be 16 bits or 32 bits ... ) > > I don't recall any of those...any recollection of which ones? I seem to recall the Latice C compiler for the Amiga (I still own it) spent a chapter or two on linking with the output from other compilers that may use different sized ints (68000, internal 32 bit, external 16 bit bus, so arguments could be made for using either size for an int). -spc From spc at conman.org Mon Jul 2 23:50:47 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 00:50:47 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <201207030233.WAA29943@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4FF22EA3.3030706@neurotica.com> <201207030233.WAA29943@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120703045047.GF31814@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated: > > Or, of course, you could just not even pretend to write portably. > Sometimes that's a right answer; for example, when writing a driver for > an SBus device, I have no problem assuming I'm on a SPARC. Would that be a 32 bit SPARC, or 64 bit SPARC? -spc (What? Uh ... I don't know ... AAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 3 00:10:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 01:10:54 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703044944.GE31814@brevard.conman.org> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> <20120703011010.GC31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF25948.6060803@neurotica.com> <20120703044944.GE31814@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4FF27EDE.5030604@neurotica.com> On 07/03/2012 12:49 AM, Sean Conner wrote: >>> It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: >>> Well, at work, we develop code that has to run on both 32 and 64 bit >>> systems (Pentium and SPARC, so I get the fun of byte swapping too!). I >>> don't even know what the size of a 'long' is on the 64 bit system (but I >>> don't really have to care when I can select uint32_t or uint64_t as needed). >> >> I *do not* envy you there. ;) > > It hasn't been that bad. In fact, the testing tools I wrote (that's my > job---to test the code the other developers write) were more portable than > the code I was testing! (our lead developer has this insane embedded mindset > where I swear he thinks we're writing our code for 1MHz 6502s instead of > 64bit multicore SPARC but that's a rant for another time; he didn't bother > with byte swapping (because every cycle is sacred) on the network protocols > because, well, hey, we're using only SPARCs, until that wasn't the case). Ha, that guy sounds like me, but I always use ntohl()/htonl() and ntohs()/htons(). :) >>> -spc (If I recall correctly, there were several different compilers for >>> 68k based systems where an 'int' could be 16 bits or 32 bits ... ) >> >> I don't recall any of those...any recollection of which ones? > > I seem to recall the Latice C compiler for the Amiga (I still own it) > spent a chapter or two on linking with the output from other compilers that > may use different sized ints (68000, internal 32 bit, external 16 bit bus, > so arguments could be made for using either size for an int). So it was capable of interoperating with both? That's pretty cool. When I started caring a lot about portability (which I do, lest someone assume otherwise from my dislike for the newfangled uint32_t business) nearly all of my work was on 68020-based machines with either Sun's unbundled C compiler or GCC. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jul 3 00:17:01 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 01:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703045047.GF31814@brevard.conman.org> References: <4FF22EA3.3030706@neurotica.com> <201207030233.WAA29943@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120703045047.GF31814@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <201207030517.BAA01606@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [F]or example, when writing a driver for an SBus device, I have no >> problem assuming I'm on a SPARC. > Would that be a 32 bit SPARC, or 64 bit SPARC? 32, in most cases, for me. Of course, that's no excuse, since there _are_ SBus sparc64 machines; absent a reason to do otherwise, I would design such a driver to run on either. (I might not get it right, of course, and have trouble testing it because my usual sparc64 test machines aren't SBus, but that's a separate issue. If I were doing very much SBus driver writing I probably would ensure I had a sparc64 SBus machine set up for testing on.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 00:27:50 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 01:27:50 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF27EDE.5030604@neurotica.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> <20120703011010.GC31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF25948.6060803@neurotica.com> <20120703044944.GE31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF27EDE.5030604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 1:10 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> -spc (If I recall correctly, there were several different compilers for >>>> 68k based systems where an 'int' could be 16 bits or 32 bits ... ) >>> >>> I don't recall any of those...any recollection of which ones? >> >> I seem to recall the Latice C compiler for the Amiga (I still own it) >> spent a chapter or two on linking with the output from other compilers that >> may use different sized ints (68000, internal 32 bit, external 16 bit bus, >> so arguments could be made for using either size for an int). ISTR there was a difference between the default behavior of the Manx C compiler and Lattice C, but I skirted most of it because when I plunked down the big bucks, I got Lattice. IIRC, Manx had early popularity because of lower acquisition cost bolstered by the fact that it made "smaller binaries" (because it did a lot of 16 bit operations in places where Lattice C for the 68K (or even UNIX C compilers on VAXen) would default to 32 bits. I also recall some turbulence from source that would compile on Manx but not on Lattice C, but most of the examples to be found would probably be in the oldest 5%-10% of the Fred Fish library. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 3 01:08:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 02:08:08 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <201207030415.AAA01072@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4FF22EA3.3030706@neurotica.com> <201207030233.WAA29943@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FF269E2.4030805@neurotica.com> <201207030415.AAA01072@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4FF28C48.4080406@neurotica.com> On 07/03/2012 12:15 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> Or, of course, you could just not even pretend to write portably. >>> Sometimes that's a right answer; [...] >> I'm writing device drivers and comm protocols for industrial control >> systems. These boards will be made by the hundreds of thousands and >> will never run any other processor. > > Yup, that is one of those "sometimes". Or, at least, it can be; I've > seen "it'll never run on anything else" code ported to the next > hardware rev with great pain often enough that I'd be hesitant to write > that way myself, but sometimes such porting is unlikely enough that > paying the cost for it if-and-when is preferable to paying the > immediate costs of preparing for it now. And you are the one in a > position to estimate those things in this case, not me. I'm sorta hesitant as well, but the architectures on which the sizes of int and short aren't 32 and 16 bits are few and far between. If I'm specifically building binaries for 64-bit machines on which they AREN'T those sizes (which I have NEVER done, despite half the machines I work on being 64-bit), then I take other measures. >> Do not make the mistake of assuming that I don't know this language, >> and don't make the mistake of assuming that anyone who doesn't use >> this "uint32_t" noise is automatically writing inherently >> non-portable code. > > No, I don't make either of those assumptions. Nor am I writing > specifically to you in most of the arguments I make in this thread. > Portability is a matter of degree, not an absolute all-or-nothing > thing; neither is it a thing that can be conjured up by mechanical > application of any rules (like "use uint*_t") or wrecked by ignoring > them. It requires awareness of what the language does and doesn't > promise and thought about how that interacts with the assumptions your > code is making. > > Not that I think _you_ need to be told any of this. But others reading > this thread, whether now or in the archives...well, some of them > probably don't either. But some of them likely do. This is an excellent point. I am also usually guilty of automatically disliking change for change's sake, which is what I perceive these "new" typedef abortions to be. I learned C from the first edition of the K&R book, when the 2nd edition of the K&R book was new. I like function prototypes, but aside from that, I write bog-standard (really friggin' FAST) plain old C. I find it to be extremely portable in all but the most unusual of situations, and for 99% of those, ntohl() and friends have solved my problems. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 3 01:36:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2012 23:36:24 -0700 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF28C48.4080406@neurotica.com> References: , <201207030415.AAA01072@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <4FF28C48.4080406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF23078.15774.27A6768@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jul 2012 at 2:08, Dave McGuire wrote: > I am also usually guilty of automatically disliking change for > change's sake, which is what I perceive these "new" typedef abortions > to be. I learned C from the first edition of the K&R book, when the > 2nd edition of the K&R book was new. I like function prototypes, but > aside from that, I write bog-standard (really friggin' FAST) plain old > C. I find it to be extremely portable in all but the most unusual of > situations, and for 99% of those, ntohl() and friends have solved my > problems. I think that the biggest single difference between my C of 30 years ago and the C I write today is that I use typedefs a lot today; not so much back then. But "what's an integer?" has been with us since FORTRAN. 16 bits on an IBM 1130; 60 bits on a CDC 6600; however many digits you specified on your IBM 1620 compilation. And yet, it's quite possible to write very portable FORTRAN or C. --Chuck From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 19:11:01 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 20:11:01 -0400 Subject: Strange Core Memory Behavior in a PDP-8/L Message-ID: The RICM is still wrestling with the core in the PDP-8. After replacing some diodes on the core stack we have all addresses working. We observed an interesting core memory behavior during our debugging last Saturday. We started the memory alignment procedure by looking at the STROBE FIELD 0 signal and the amplifier output on pin E1 of the sense amplifier. The STROBE signal was very late compared to Figure 5-6 in the 8/L Maintenance Manual. We ran a short JMP loop and adjusted the relationship with the trimpot on the M360 delay module. When we halted the processor and tried a examine core we only got just zeros. We adjusted the M360 delay back where it was and single step worked again. We found that the strobe-to-one-bit relationship was almost 100ns earlier when in single-step than it was with the processor running. We checked the whole timing path from MEM START at pin N2 of the M113 in slot C03, through all of the gates, delays, and flip-flops, and found no timing difference between single-step and running. Right now it looks like there is a 100ns delay difference between the READ(1) signal that turns on the current in the core and the bit signal showing up on the E1 pin of the sense amplifier when in the single-step and running. Is this normal behavior? -- Michael Thompson From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jul 3 01:53:52 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 06:53:52 +0000 Subject: Chicago help requested (tick tick tick) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/2/12 11:20 AM, "William Donzelli" wrote: >> Will - sent you a direct email re: the previous message. Get in touch >> and I'll see what I can do. > >One of the mainframe guys has offered to do it, but I need to confirm >with him. Stay tuned, we may have this covered. > >I do not know how much there is, nor exactly what is there. > >-- >Will > > If everything else falls through, please let me know. I have family in the Elgin area and might be able to enlist them. -- Ian From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 03:00:06 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 03:00:06 -0500 Subject: Teletype/Dataspeed Model 40 In-Reply-To: <4FF1BCDE.20023.B678F3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF1BCDE.20023.B678F3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I think I was trained on those in the military around 1975 or 76. When I went to for DEC I recall a customer who used the late 70's. Fairly good units as I recall. Paul On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Jul 2012 at 17:02, Jason T wrote: > > >> The "printer" is only a shell. I thought at first it may have been >> harvested for parts (I was told they came from the estate of a >> deceased IL Bell repair instructor) but given the connections inside >> the enclosure, I am wondering if it was designed to accept a standard >> Teletype mech. > > No, the model 40 Dataspeed printer was a band printer with a bank of > solenoid-driven hammers behind the band, one per column. Standard > tractor-feed forms. It could print a full 132 columns wide at a > time. I seem to recall that the rated speed was 150 LPM, not bad at > all for a tabletop unit. It really needed that soundproof enclosure-- > it was VERY loud without it. > > A couple of third-party vendors bought the basic mech from Teletype > and packaged it in their own enclosures with a standard Centronics or > Dataproducts interface. I still have some old documents printed on > one--the print quality is quite high. > > I still have the schematics for the thing somewhere. > > --Chuck > From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Jul 3 06:38:15 2012 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 12:38:15 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120703113815.GA32187@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 07:33:28PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > However, given that you can get the bits farily cheaply (all apart form > the monitor [1]), I feel that there should be a marketed 'complete' Rpi, > conssiing of the board, keyboard, mouse, psu, OS (on SD card), > cables,etc. > ... > I jsut htink there should _also_ be a package deal with all the bits > you need included. There is. RS were *really keen* to sell me all those extra bits when I ordered my board. -- David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive What a lovely day! Now watch me spoil it for you. From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Jul 3 07:10:58 2012 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 13:10:58 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120703121058.GB32187@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 07:56:52PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > So, the Rpi is goign to be sold mostly to people who already have a > computer (at lleast in Eirope and the States). In whci hcase, why not > simply install prgrammign tools on said computer and program that. That's simple. Cost. 25 quid (plus keyboard, mouse etc) for a Raspberry Pi, or a lot more than 25 quid (plus keyboard, mouse etc) for anything else. The key thing here is that you said *a* computer. I want *several* computers for my experiments in distributed model railway control systems. And a school that wants to teach a whole load of kids programming needs lots of computers too, and, just like me, has a tight budget. Even if I could spare the space and put up with the heat and noise, I couldn't afford to buy a bunch of cheap Dells. But I can afford a dozen Raspberry Pis. > Actually, I _did_ have an appication in mind where I might haev used one. > The reason I was asking about the GPIO port was that I wanted to see how > easy it would be to inteface it to an HPIB system. Given that the RPi > already has soem kind fo filesystem nd cna presuambly communicate with > USB stoeage deviecs "some kind of filesystem"? "can presumably communicate with USB storage devices"? Have you even bothered to look at their website? Or are you so allergic to online documentation that you demand that they print it all out and post it to you before you buy? > > Binary drivers for Linux only, no other OS. GPU is proprietary, > > undocumented and protected Broadcom IP; they will not disclose > That's the reall downer for me. Why, were you all excited at writing graphics demos with Banging Choonz, or playing video games that would utilise all of the GPUs hardware to the full? That, errm, doesn't seem like you at all! > > The machine boots because the GPU reads a FAT filesystem on the SD > > card, looks for files of certain names, loads them into RAM and then > > boots the ARM core and starts it executing. > Is that fully docuemtned? In otehr wordsm if you don't want video > functions at all, can you work with the bare metal? You probably need to use their boot-loader, to get the ARM part of the chip started, although I'm speculating here, I've not bothered to even look for that documentation, because I don't care. But once the ARM has started, I presume that everything after that (modulo some X11 drivers) is bog standard Linux, so could be replaced. -- David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david It wouldn't hurt to think like a serial killer every so often. Purely for purposes of prevention, of course. From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 07:26:39 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 08:26:39 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF25948.6060803@neurotica.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> <20120703011010.GC31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF25948.6060803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jul 2, 2012, at 22:30, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/02/2012 09:10 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > >> -spc (If I recall correctly, there were several different compilers for >> 68k based systems where an 'int' could be 16 bits or 32 bits ... ) > > I don't recall any of those...any recollection of which ones? I don't know about C, but certainly the early Pascal compiler. I seem to recall that's why HFS has a 16-bit block count. - Dave From abs at absd.org Tue Jul 3 07:27:38 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 13:27:38 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703121058.GB32187@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20120703121058.GB32187@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: On 3 July 2012 13:10, David Cantrell wrote: > On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 07:56:52PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >>> > The machine boots because the GPU reads a FAT filesystem on the SD >> > card, looks for files of certain names, loads them into RAM and then >> > boots the ARM core and starts it executing. >> Is that fully docuemtned? In otehr wordsm if you don't want video >> functions at all, can you work with the bare metal? > > You probably need to use their boot-loader, to get the ARM part of the > chip started, although I'm speculating here, I've not bothered to even > look for that documentation, because I don't care. But once the ARM has > started, I presume that everything after that (modulo some X11 drivers) > is bog standard Linux, so could be replaced. There are non Linux operating systems being ported to the Pi (RISC OS and at least two BSDs). I seem to recall some grumbling about less than comprehensive documentation on bringing up a new OS on the hardware, but I suspect that will also be fixed in time, plus it always helps when you have multiple independent OS implementations for a platform :) From abs at absd.org Tue Jul 3 07:27:38 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 13:27:38 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703121058.GB32187@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20120703121058.GB32187@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: On 3 July 2012 13:10, David Cantrell wrote: > On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 07:56:52PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >>> > The machine boots because the GPU reads a FAT filesystem on the SD >> > card, looks for files of certain names, loads them into RAM and then >> > boots the ARM core and starts it executing. >> Is that fully docuemtned? In otehr wordsm if you don't want video >> functions at all, can you work with the bare metal? > > You probably need to use their boot-loader, to get the ARM part of the > chip started, although I'm speculating here, I've not bothered to even > look for that documentation, because I don't care. But once the ARM has > started, I presume that everything after that (modulo some X11 drivers) > is bog standard Linux, so could be replaced. There are non Linux operating systems being ported to the Pi (RISC OS and at least two BSDs). I seem to recall some grumbling about less than comprehensive documentation on bringing up a new OS on the hardware, but I suspect that will also be fixed in time, plus it always helps when you have multiple independent OS implementations for a platform :) From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 09:10:55 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 10:10:55 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703011822.GD31814@brevard.conman.org> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> <20120703011822.GD31814@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com> On Jul 2, 2012, at 9:18 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great David Riley once stated: >> On Jul 2, 2012, at 6:53 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >> >>>> AFAIK sizeof(unsigned short) is not defined anywhere :-). >>> >>> I'm not sure I follow you here. In C, you can indeed do a >>> >>> sizeof(unsigned short) >>> >>> and get back the size (in characters) of a short int (with the size in bits >>> of a character defined by CHAR_BIT). >> >> But it's not defined in a standard, which is a problem. It could be 128 >> bits when it's compiled for all you know. > > Um .. it *IS* defined in a standard---the ANSI C standard: > > ... Their implementation defined values shall be equal or greater in > magnitude (absolute value) to those shown, with the same sign. > > CHAR_BIT - number of bits for smallest object that is not a > bit-field (byte) > > CHAR_BIT 8 I should clarify. Yes, you can get sizeof(whatever) and it will be the size of whatever in bytes; I meant that sizeof(unsigned short) is undefined by a standard. Assuming that it has even a fixed minimum (1 char notwithstanding) is a fool's errand in a lot of cases. 32-bit architectures have dominated computing since I started programming, but I've still seen plenty of breakage (even in new code) caused by such assumptions. I think actually the most obnoxious example I've seen is the assumption that sizeof(int) == sizeof(void *). One of the bog- standard codebases for MMCs on the ATCA architecture, written by PigeonPoint, has some post-processing utilities written for Linux in the source distribution. They made the boneheaded moves of a) typedefing "u32" to "unsigned long" (which made "u32" a 64-bit int on amd64) and b) assuming that "unsigned int" could be used to hold pointer differences (which it cannot on amd64). The resulting code just crashed because the heap was getting stomped, which is hard to debug, and it was so difficult to worm out the errors (especially because some of them just produced slightly-wrong binaries instead of crashing) that I gave up and just forced compilation as 32 bit code. - Dave From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 09:46:58 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 10:46:58 -0400 Subject: Chicago help requested (tick tick tick) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I just received a note saying this must be done today or tomorrow, as > the family departs on Wednesday! OK, good news. The items have been rescued. I do not know what is in the pile yet, but I do not think it is much. Thanks all for offers of help. -- Will From spc at conman.org Tue Jul 3 10:24:38 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:24:38 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> <20120703011822.GD31814@brevard.conman.org> <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great David Riley once stated: > On Jul 2, 2012, at 9:18 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > > It was thus said that the Great David Riley once stated: > >> On Jul 2, 2012, at 6:53 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > >> > >>>> AFAIK sizeof(unsigned short) is not defined anywhere :-). > >>> > >>> I'm not sure I follow you here. In C, you can indeed do a > >>> > >>> sizeof(unsigned short) > >>> > >>> and get back the size (in characters) of a short int (with the size in bits > >>> of a character defined by CHAR_BIT). > >> > >> But it's not defined in a standard, which is a problem. It could be 128 > >> bits when it's compiled for all you know. > > > > Um .. it *IS* defined in a standard---the ANSI C standard: > > > > ... Their implementation defined values shall be equal or greater in > > magnitude (absolute value) to those shown, with the same sign. > > > > CHAR_BIT - number of bits for smallest object that is not a > > bit-field (byte) > > > > CHAR_BIT 8 > > I should clarify. Yes, you can get sizeof(whatever) and it will be > the size of whatever in bytes; I meant that sizeof(unsigned short) > is undefined by a standard. Assuming that it has even a fixed > minimum (1 char notwithstanding) is a fool's errand in a lot of > cases. 32-bit architectures have dominated computing since I > started programming, but I've still seen plenty of breakage (even > in new code) caused by such assumptions. But sizeof(unsigned short) is *still* defined (same section as above). The ANSI C specification states that a short shall be *at least* 16 bits in size, but can be larger, but must be shorter than a long. If the compiler isn't ANSI C, then yes, it can be pretty much anything, but ANSI does specify a minimum length. And for the record: char 8 bits or larger [1] short 16 bits or larger long 32 bits or larger An int can't be shorter than a short, and can't be longer than a long. -spc (At least we get signed/unsigned integers in C; in Java, no such luck) [1] a plain 'char' declaration can be signed or unsigned, depending upon compiler. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jul 3 10:32:04 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> <20120703011822.GD31814@brevard.conman.org> <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201207031532.LAA04011@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I should clarify. Yes, you can get sizeof(whatever) and it will be > the size of whatever in bytes; ...well, for "byte" == "the storage for a `char'"... > I meant that sizeof(unsigned short) is undefined by a standard. True, but there is a minimum size in bits (16) implied; SHRT_MIN must be <= -32767, SHRT_MAX must be >= 32767, and USHRT_MAX must be >= 65535. > Assuming that it has even a fixed minimum (1 char notwithstanding) Yeah, sizeof(unsigned short) can be as low as 1. While I've never personally seen one, I've heard of compilers targeted at DSPs which make char, short, int, and long all the same: one (32-bit) machine word. > I think actually the most obnoxious example I've seen is the > assumption that sizeof(int) == sizeof(void *). Oh, yeah. I've run into that a few times (or more often assuming that any pointer can be shoved into an int and pulled back without change, which is pretty close to assuming sizeof(int) >= sizeof(void *)). Or consider Xt, at least as of MIT X vintage, which I think assumes the other way around (which is less likely to fail in practice, but just as not-guaranteed). It's one of the more personally annoying examples I've seen of playing fast and loose with pointers-vs-integers. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 10:37:59 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:37:59 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> <20120703011822.GD31814@brevard.conman.org> <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com> <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:24 AM, Sean Conner wrote: > But sizeof(unsigned short) is *still* defined (same section as above). > The ANSI C specification states that a short shall be *at least* 16 bits in > size, but can be larger, but must be shorter than a long. If the compiler > isn't ANSI C, then yes, it can be pretty much anything, but ANSI does > specify a minimum length. OK, yes, the minimums are defined. I've actually run into much more trouble when people assume a maximum, the crypto example I mentioned before being the big one (where you're using integer overflow to perform addition/multiplication/etc modulo 2^32). That's not short, obviously, but a short could be 128 bits if a long were 256. It wouldn't be illegal, and might be totally logical on the host architecture (though it's obviously in the realm of fantasy for the nonce). - Dave From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jul 3 11:07:27 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:07:27 -0500 Subject: Modern computers with docs (was: Re: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 19:48 -0500 7/1/12, ARD wrote (more or less): >More seriously, can you name a present-day computer where the >manufactuers do supply schematics, data on ASICs, and the like? N8VEM. Pretty sure that's not what you meant, though. Seriously, I love the idea but see no good way to market it to the average user. Imbedded systems, "educational" systems, etc. could maybe develop a market size that would make it possible to produce, but the cost of providing good service info (much more to produce good "educational" material to accompany the system if that's the route you are going) ... ouch. It looks to me like the market has fragmented into a) N8VEM class systems - *truly* niche market, open architecture but tiny numbers sold b) Rpi class systems - incomplete docs and SMI/unserviceable construction, moderate numbers sold c) Commodity boxes, iPad/ThinkBook/etc - serviceable only with specialized tools or not at all, the vast majority of the market. d) Server boxes more serviceable, but at the fast, board-swap-to-get-it-running level. Expensive. Small fraction of market. Anyone have ideas on how to break out of those categories? I think whatever it is will need a powerful enough CPU to run a *big* fraction of modern hardware (recent Linux -> web browser + self-hosted development environment?), be easy enough to assemble to require minimal tool acquisition, and use commodity peripherals (flash card storage, HDMI output, bluetooth or USB KB/mouse, microphone?). Complexity is already an issue at that point; trying to "educate" a new user across that whole array of components is pretty daunting. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jul 3 11:07:23 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:07:23 -0500 Subject: sizeof(weird_things) was Re: SPI and I2... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 21:58 -0500 7/2/12, Cameron wrote: >Fortunately they only made this assumption a few places, but figuring out >what broke was maddeningly fiddly. ...and for the record, the resulting (I assume) TenFourFox rocks! http://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/ There are multiple websites I use daily that load faster and better on TenFourFox than on Safari on my PowerBookG4; the (on-topic) iMac G3 is a no-contest win for it. Cameron, thank you! Anyone else surfing the web with a PowerPC Mac, I commend the above site to your attention. (no relation, just satisfied user). -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 3 11:12:39 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 09:12:39 -0700 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com>, <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com>, <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4FF2B787.7909.37A1E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jul 2012 at 11:24, Sean Conner wrote: > char 8 bits or larger [1] > short 16 bits or larger > long 32 bits or larger > > An int can't be shorter than a short, and can't be longer than a > long. > > -spc (At least we get signed/unsigned integers in C; in Java, no > such > luck) The root of the problem is that C (and associated programming language) uses "int" as a hold-all for things not integer in nature. Think about it--doing operations such as shifting and using logical operators on an integer isn't arithmetic in nature--it's binary logical. Adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing and comparing integers makes arithmetic sense. ANDing, ORing, EXORing, shifting, NOTing does not--they're operations reserved for strings of bits. But that's been a weakness of C since K&R put pen to paper. My fear is that C and other languages are constraining our ideas of computer architecture unduly. --Chuck From codeblue at inbox.lv Tue Jul 3 12:00:35 2012 From: codeblue at inbox.lv (Code Blue) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 17:00:35 +0000 Subject: Modern computers with docs (was: Re: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120703170035.GA30180@inbox.lv> On Tue, Jul 03, 2012 at 11:07:27AM -0500, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 19:48 -0500 7/1/12, ARD wrote (more or less): > >More seriously, can you name a present-day computer where the > >manufactuers do supply schematics, data on ASICs, and the like? > > N8VEM. > > Pretty sure that's not what you meant, though. > > Seriously, I love the idea but see no good way to market it to the > average user. > > Imbedded systems, "educational" systems, etc. could maybe develop a > market size that would make it possible to produce, but the cost of > providing good service info (much more to produce good "educational" > material to accompany the system if that's the route you are going) > ... ouch. > > It looks to me like the market has fragmented into > > a) N8VEM class systems - > *truly* niche market, open architecture but tiny numbers sold > b) Rpi class systems - > incomplete docs and SMI/unserviceable construction, moderate > numbers sold > c) Commodity boxes, iPad/ThinkBook/etc - > serviceable only with specialized tools or not at all, the vast > majority of the market. > d) Server boxes > more serviceable, but at the fast, board-swap-to-get-it-running > level. Expensive. Small fraction of market. > > Anyone have ideas on how to break out of those categories? I think > whatever it is will need a powerful enough CPU to run a *big* > fraction of modern hardware (recent Linux -> web browser + > self-hosted development environment?), be easy enough to assemble to > require minimal tool acquisition, and use commodity peripherals > (flash card storage, HDMI output, bluetooth or USB KB/mouse, > microphone?). Complexity is already an issue at that point; trying > to "educate" a new user across that whole array of components is > pretty daunting. Yeah I just bought a Lemote Mini. I think it meets all your requirements and it's complete as delivered and 100% open source so it probably meets Tony's requirements as well. They also make laptops/netbooks. And they are coming out with (I believe) a quad core MIPS box soon, judging from the Linux kernel commits. It's a greeting card box sized SBC with a licensed MIPS III-compatible uniprocessor with some proprietary (but documented) extensions, running about 800/900 MHz, has 512M RAM, 160G SATA HD, preinstalled Debian-based Linux. I just got it so I don't know how it does compiling big source but it boots and responds fine for my needs at this point, actually better than I expected. I tried out KDE and read some PDFs and it seems not to have any performance problems. I am going to install OpenBSD and get rid of the Linux asap but it's good to know there are several reliable OS choices for it. It's a little pricey ($186 + steep shipping) especially compared to the RPi but it is a finished package with a nice housing, walwart, WIFI, 1Gbit ethernet, 4 USB ports, micro serial port(!), and DVI and VGA and S-Video out. Just add keyboard and monitor and start coding, surfing the web, whatever. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jul 3 12:02:57 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 13:02:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF2B787.7909.37A1E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com> <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> <4FF2B787.7909.37A1E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201207031702.NAA04869@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > My fear is that C and other languages are constraining our ideas of > computer architecture unduly. I don't think of it with respect to C very much, but I suspect you're right. C as it's currently defined does impose some constraints; for example, it pretty much requires a binary machine. Even beyond that, it promises a lot less than most people (seem to) think it does; I've often thought about building a portability-test compiler which goes out of its way to break such assumptions. Something like 9-bit chars, 17-bit shorts, 33-bit ints (with irregular endianness, maybe something like BCAD order, and the padding bits scattered around)...and that's just the beginning. :) I've long had similar feelings about POSIX and OS architecture, the worry that anything that doesn't at least mostly fit the POSIX mold kinda can't be done. I spent six months writing glue code to take a research project in distributed, encrypted storage and present a POSIX interface to it; the project was very interesting, but the need they felt to give it a POSIX interface is, to me, an example of this issue. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 12:05:39 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 10:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> <20120703011822.GD31814@brevard.conman.org> <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com> <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20120703095946.D56028@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Sean Conner wrote: > But sizeof(unsigned short) is *still* defined (same section as above). > The ANSI C specification states that a short shall be *at least* 16 bits in > size, but can be larger, but must be shorter than a long. If the compiler > isn't ANSI C, then yes, it can be pretty much anything, but ANSI does > specify a minimum length. Not all of us are enthusiastic, EVEN NOW, about switching from defacto practices in K&R to arbitrary standards in ANSI-C > And for the record: > char 8 bits or larger [1] > short 16 bits or larger In K&R C, a short int was often the same as a char > An int can't be shorter than a short, and can't be longer than a long. That's what K&R originally said, also, and that THAT was ALL that one should assume. They said that an int should be whatever was best handled by the machine. > [1] a plain 'char' declaration can be signed or unsigned, depending upon > compiler. THAT one bit me, and hard, when I was first starting, and using char for byte (contents of 8 bit registers, etc.). From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 12:06:59 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 18:06:59 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703121058.GB32187@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20120703121058.GB32187@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: On 3 July 2012 13:10, David Cantrell wrote: > > You probably need to use their boot-loader, to get the ARM part of the > chip started, although I'm speculating here, I've not bothered to even > look for that documentation, because I don't care. But once the ARM has > started, I presume that everything after that (modulo some X11 drivers) > is bog standard Linux, so could be replaced. As I understand it, there /is/ not bootloader. The ARM does not boot the system; the GPU does it, loads the ARM code into RAM and then kicks it off. The GPU is smart enough to read a FAT filesystem, look for a specific file, load it, uncompress it and then tell the ARM core to start running from a given location. RISC OS has to "pretend" to be Linux to get loaded - the RISC OS kernel is compressed in some Linux format and called something like vmlinuz.gz or the like. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 12:11:26 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 10:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF2B787.7909.37A1E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com>, <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com>, <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> <4FF2B787.7909.37A1E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120703100627.X56028@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing and comparing integers > makes arithmetic sense. ANDing, ORing, EXORing, shifting, NOTing > does not--they're operations reserved for strings of bits. But > that's been a weakness of C since K&R put pen to paper. AND strength! > My fear is that C and other languages are constraining our ideas of > computer architecture unduly. ANY programming language creates its own "world-view". Imagine the "reality" of computer architecture perceived by COBOL, or even BASIC, only programmers! Or should we demand that computers be designed to CONFORM to each "reality"? From ryan at hack.net Tue Jul 3 12:17:41 2012 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 12:17:41 -0500 Subject: Modern computers with docs (was: Re: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac...) In-Reply-To: <20120703170035.GA30180@inbox.lv> References: <20120703170035.GA30180@inbox.lv> Message-ID: <24DBA9D6-3C88-4ECB-95A9-E9292762A336@hack.net> >> > > Yeah I just bought a Lemote Mini. I think it meets all your requirements and > it's complete as delivered and 100% open source so it probably meets Tony's > requirements as well. They also make laptops/netbooks. And they are coming > out with (I believe) a quad core MIPS box soon, judging from the Linux > kernel commits. Looks interesting. Is there a US dealer? GPU documented/open API? Thanks! > > I am going to install OpenBSD Cool. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Jul 3 12:27:40 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 13:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Modern computers with docs (was: Re: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201207031727.NAA05120@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > N8VEM. > Pretty sure that's not what you meant, though. > Seriously, I love the idea but see no good way to market it to > the average user. Why does "the average user" matter here? Such people have no use for schematics, detailed ASIC data, etc. This strikes me as rather like building a solar-powered car for racing and worrying that it doesn't work well to carry groceries home from the supermarket. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Jul 3 12:58:48 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 19:58:48 +0200 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... Message-ID: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> .. I overheard two teenage girls examining each other on tech history. Girl A : "The first PC was ....?" Girl B : "...the Macintosh !" Girl A, looking in her textbook : "Correct !" Sigh....... Of course "first PC" is open to debate, but a Mac ? I should probably be happy that they learn *something* about tech history. Jos From codeblue at inbox.lv Tue Jul 3 13:10:58 2012 From: codeblue at inbox.lv (Code Blue) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 18:10:58 +0000 Subject: Modern computers with docs (was: Re: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac...) In-Reply-To: <24DBA9D6-3C88-4ECB-95A9-E9292762A336@hack.net> References: <20120703170035.GA30180@inbox.lv> <24DBA9D6-3C88-4ECB-95A9-E9292762A336@hack.net> Message-ID: <20120703181058.GA32488@inbox.lv> On Tue, Jul 03, 2012 at 12:17:41PM -0500, Ryan Brooks wrote: > >> > > > > Yeah I just bought a Lemote Mini. I think it meets all your requirements and > > it's complete as delivered and 100% open source so it probably meets Tony's > > requirements as well. They also make laptops/netbooks. And they are coming > > out with (I believe) a quad core MIPS box soon, judging from the Linux > > kernel commits. > > Looks interesting. Is there a US dealer? GPU documented/open API? Thanks! AFAIK there is no American dealer. You can buy through Aliexpress or a couple different European shops. You should check the shipping costs and total things up to see which would be cheaper for you. AFAIK everything is totally open, everything is documented right down to the processor (full data sheet and 200+ page user manual). I think I was able to get all of the doc but checking now there are a few broken links. The Chinese websites are up and down but you will eventually catch it. A good starting point for info is http://dev.lemote.com/code/linux-loongson-community/wiki/WikiStart If the link doesn't work let me know, I am typing it manually in Mutt > > I am going to install OpenBSD > Cool. I have been following the OpenBSD mailing lists for many years and there has been some interesting discussion on this project. Some rather painful chip bugs apparently have been worked out in current models and Lemote seems to be tooling up for the next generation. I have no idea what format (laptop, mini etc) they're going to put the quad in but this box is good enough for what I want it for (cheap/good MIPS development box). If you follow all the various MIPS mailing lists you can find out some interesting tidbits. Plus the Lemote guys seem friendly and genuinely committed to keeping things open and putting out good stuff and fixing bugs. They work them pretty hard though so it can be a little slow, but they answer. OpenBSD has it as a "fully supported platform" and since the device is completely open and Lemote is actively supporting it and growing the platform I expect things to keep going in a good direction. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 3 13:25:10 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 12:25:10 -0600 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <4FF332D8.7050808 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen writes: > I should probably be happy that they learn *something* about tech history. What good does it do if they learn the wrong things? Girl 1: Which was the first country to guarantee individual liberty? Girl 2: China! Girl 3: Right! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 13:27:02 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 13:27:02 -0500 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: you shoulda spoke up On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > .. I overheard two teenage girls examining each other on tech history. > > Girl A : "The first PC was ....?" > Girl B : "...the Macintosh !" > Girl A, looking in her textbook : "Correct !" > > Sigh....... > > > Of course "first PC" is open to debate, but a Mac ? > I should probably be happy that they learn *something* about tech history. > > Jos > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jul 3 13:29:23 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 20:29:23 +0200 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120703202923.bb87986d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 19:26:37 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > On every platform I work on, and indeed every platform I've > *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and unsigned int has > been 32. That includes the 8-bitters as well. No. avr-gcc uses 16 bits / 2 bytes for int / unsigned int. I am looking at this very moment to a LCD connected to a ATmega168 that printed sizeof( unsigned int) on said LCD. Your confusion about sizeof( int) is the exact reason why uint32_t and its friends where introduced with C99. IIRC a int is 16 bits on 2.11BSD too, as the PDP-11 is a 16 bit machine. But it is way to long ago since I hacked C on my 2.11BSD machine. So I may be wrong on this. The point is: An int is usuly the largest intish type a machine can handle "comfortly". This is true for the AVR, as at least some AVRs have instructions that work on 16 bit values. Also: sizeof( int) is expected to be > sizeof( char). (> not >=) So if we imply char to be a 8 bit byte an int must be at least 16 bits. Thus sizeof( int) == 2 for the AVR, since sizeof( int) == 4 would be to much overhead. The 16 bitnes of the PDP-11 is well knowen. Regarding uint32_t and its friends: They are in the C99 standard. (inttypes.h) I use them all over the place. Especially on AVRs. I wrote C code that I compiled without change on an AVR and on a PeeCee running NetBSD/i386. I used (u)int(16|32)_t all over there to avoid the sizeof( int) missmatch. This was important, as I did some fixed piont arthmetic. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 3 13:30:32 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 11:30:32 -0700 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703100627.X56028@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com>, <4FF2B787.7909.37A1E1@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120703100627.X56028@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FF2D7D8.18105.B5E0BA@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jul 2012 at 10:11, Fred Cisin wrote: > Or should we demand that computers be designed to CONFORM to each > "reality"? Isn't that pretty much a fait accompli? Consider for a moment how the world of computing might appear today if, say, APL was the "standard" computer language taught and used. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 13:38:24 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> <20120703011822.GD31814@brevard.conman.org> <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com> <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20120703112713.P56028@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Sean Conner wrote: > But sizeof(unsigned short) is *still* defined (same section as above). > The ANSI C specification states that a short shall be *at least* 16 bits in > size, but can be larger, but must be shorter than a long. NO!!!! a short need not be shorter than a long! But it must not be LONGER than a long. That is an important distinction in the limits on C's variable sizes "An int can't be shorter than a short, and can't be longer than a long." You COULD, with sufficient insanity, create a compiler wherein an int, short-int, long-int are all 32 bit. or 64 bit. I'd RATHER have them different. In small memory model, with an array of 400+ x 20 numbers, and a metric handful of static arrays to hold 80 x 25 text screens (2 x 8, or 16 bits per screen position), and a few 1024 arrays (to hold bytes), . . . Having some smaller sizes can be handy. > isn't ANSI C, then yes, it can be pretty much anything, but ANSI does > specify a minimum length. But NOT a maximum, NOR a requirement, although they have different lower limits, that they have differne upper limits. "An int can't be shorter than a short, and can't be longer than a long." From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 3 13:38:43 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 12:38:43 -0600 Subject: C++ compiler standards compliance (was: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America) In-Reply-To: <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9 at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > [...] That's why we have ptrdiff_t. > stdint.h is your friend, and anyone not implementing it (*cough* > MSVC *cough*) is not. ptrdiff_t has been in MSVC for a long time. In a private reply, David indicated that he meant to say instead of ptrdiff_t. is not present in VS2008, but is present in VS2010. However, ptrdiff_t doesn't come from , it comes from , which is present in VS2008, and although I don't have them installed, I suspect that it was present in MSVC going all the way back to VC6, which is about 15 years old at this point. I don't mind people picking on the standards compliance of a C++ compiler, but you should at least be accurate when you complain about it or imply that it doesn't support something. Microsoft's compiler has been getting better with each and every release and hasn't ever been "bad" in my opinion. (Anyone who asserts that they should support 100% of the standard in the first release hasn't been reading the standard.) gcc/g++ doesn't support all of the current (or previous) ISO standards for C++ either. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 13:39:23 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 14:39:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: <87F725A5-8FA9-4595-93EB-00882747A5B8@gmail.com> References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid> <87F725A5-8FA9-4595-93EB-00882747A5B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: FYI: At about 1:30pm EST I received a notice from RS/Newark that they were accepting orders for the RPi in the US. Within 1/2 hour their server was down. And, no, I didn't make it. Got as far as setting up the shopping basket and went bye, bye. Methinks they may have received a lot of responses. Steve -- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 3 13:40:12 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 11:40:12 -0700 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch>, Message-ID: <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jul 2012 at 12:25, Richard wrote: > What good does it do if they learn the wrong things? I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 14:12:03 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 12:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20120703120632.B56028@shell.lmi.net> > > Of course "first PC" is open to debate, but a Mac ? On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > you shoulda spoke up Naaah. Those other "prehistoric" machines "don't really count". They were just "leading up to the first PC". (no mouse? no hard disk? no GUI? etc. (although even ALL of those arbitrary "requirements to BE a PC" far preceded Mac)) A mac was what the author of the text had for HIS first PC, and therefore, THAT was "the first PC" From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 3 14:27:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 15:27:22 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703202923.bb87986d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> <20120703202923.bb87986d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4FF3479A.6040003@neurotica.com> On 07/03/2012 02:29 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> On every platform I work on, and indeed every platform I've >> *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and unsigned int has >> been 32. That includes the 8-bitters as well. > No. avr-gcc uses 16 bits / 2 bytes for int / unsigned int. > I am looking at this very moment to a LCD connected to a ATmega168 that > printed sizeof( unsigned int) on said LCD. I just went and looked, and I must apologize, you are absolutely correct! I don't know what I was thinking when I mentioned AVR the other day. I'm hip-deep in firmware and it's hot in here; that's my excuse. However, and I maintain that this is the more salient point, the code still works. ;) But see below. > Your confusion about sizeof( int) is the exact reason why uint32_t and > its friends where introduced with C99. I've still found no use at all for them. Being typedefs, as we all know, they simply provide "aliases" for standard C data types. It is no substitute for knowing the architecture and the compiler you're using. When moving code back and forth, it automates changing the data types around in a nice transparent way, which is USUALLY a good idea. I tend to shy away from things that automate away the control I have over what's going on. Now, typedefs in general, I adore. I use them all over the place, usually when creating aggregate data types like structs and unions. I don't, however, use them as simple one-to-one aliases for non-aggregate data types, regardless of what the guys on the C99 team tell me has suddenly become an indispensable practice. > Regarding uint32_t and its friends: They are in the C99 standard. > (inttypes.h) I use them all over the place. Especially on AVRs. I wrote > C code that I compiled without change on an AVR and on a PeeCee running > NetBSD/i386. I used (u)int(16|32)_t all over there to avoid the > sizeof( int) missmatch. This was important, as I did some fixed piont > arthmetic. I can certainly see how it'd be important for that, in your scenario. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jul 3 14:49:57 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 12:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sizeof(weird_things) was Re: SPI and I2... In-Reply-To: from Mark Tapley at "Jul 3, 12 11:07:23 am" Message-ID: <201207031949.q63JnvKw15663238@floodgap.com> > > Fortunately they only made this assumption a few places, but figuring out > > what broke was maddeningly fiddly. > > ...and for the record, the resulting (I assume) TenFourFox rocks! > > http://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/ > > There are multiple websites I use daily that load faster and better > on TenFourFox than on Safari on my PowerBookG4; the (on-topic) iMac > G3 is a no-contest win for it. > > Cameron, thank you! > > Anyone else surfing the web with a PowerPC Mac, I commend the above > site to your attention. You, sir, are too kind. I'm really trying hard to get us to 17ESR and then see where we are. You can play with 13 if you like, and 14 should be out soon, along with the stable releases that we base on 10ESR. But to answer my own trivia question, sizeof(bool) on PowerPC is 32 bits. As a followup, there are at least some proposals that "the Web" should be little-endian. Certain web apps that use native-endianness constructs like ArrayBuffer will refuse to run on a big-endian system (Mozilla Broadway comes to mind). It does turn out that, contrary to my posting on this thread, that the PowerPC 970 can use the byte-shifting instructions like lwbrx and friends, so I wonder what Microsoft's sticking point was. I'm toying with implementing this anyway, though the W3C, characteristically, is dragging its feet. http://calculist.org/blog/2012/04/24/the-little-endian-web/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I used to miss my ex-girlfriend, but then my aim improved. ----------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 14:55:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 12:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch>, <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120703125458.A56028@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held > among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. They are already TEACHING that! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 13:33:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 19:33:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 2, 12 08:54:08 pm Message-ID: > The thing to remember is that it is not finished yet. This is not the > final product. When I looked (after it was hyped i nthe press, and after I had to navigate past various Rpi pages to get the bits I wanted from Farnell), I didn't see anything to suggest that this was not the final product. Neither in the press nor on the sites I (briefly) looked at. > > The motto of Open Source is "release early, release often". They > shoved the hardware out the door as soon as they could. The OS(es) > is(are) not finished, there is no case, there is no ecosystem or > infrastructure around it. I can think of 3 things wrong with that : 1) It's not open. You yourself said that. Given a piece of oepn-sourve softwre, it is possible (if you are sufficiently technical) to figure out a lot from the source. Given a piece of closed-source software, running on a machine which at the time had no released scheamtics (they are released now, but as you say, things change), you have an alomst impossible job figuring it out without docuemtnation 2) It's not software 3) And therefore it's not free. A peice of software can be easily copied, and thus it cna be made esentially free. A piece of hardware cannot. DOn;t get me wrong, a piece of hardware is a physical thing and it;s obvious you have to pay for it. But even thought the Rpi is cheap, it's still expensive enough that I (for one) would bot buy one unless I knew it coule be useful. Buying things you haev no use for is simply wasting money. AS a result, releasing in a 'beta' version and not stating it was not finished seems like a rather bad idea. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 13:36:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 19:36:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF1A195.29434.4BE419@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 2, 12 01:26:45 pm Message-ID: > > On 2 Jul 2012 at 19:29, Tony Duell wrote: > > > [1] I wonder what the best way to do this would be? Off the top of > > my head, soem kind of microdoed ssytem or complex state machine (which > > at this level are the same thing, of course) would be my first guess. > > A cheap 8-bit microcontroller might arguably be the least expensive > way to implement it and allow for minor tweaks without circuit > modifications if you're not of the CPLD persuasion. The only reason I am not of the 'CPLD persuasuion' is that I have no way to use them. Not one of them is totally open. Yes, if I had to do this I would use a microcontroller. But that footnote you quoted specifically refered to a comment I had made about 'doing it with 74xx ICs'. I don't believe there are any such microcontrollers :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 13:42:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 19:42:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> from "Sean Conner" at Jul 2, 12 06:53:51 pm Message-ID: > > It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > As a digression, normally, assuming programming in C, you'd place a > > > "unsigned short" variable at the address of the SPI data register. (I'll > > > > AFAIK sizeof(unsigned short) is not defined anywhere :-). > > I'm not sure I follow you here. In C, you can indeed do a > > sizeof(unsigned short) > > and get back the size (in characters) of a short int (with the size in bits > of a character defined by CHAR_BIT). Of course you can. The point I was making is that the value you get depends on the compiler/architecture. There is no reason why a char (or unsigned char) has to be 8 bits, there is no reason why a short is 2 chars, etc. Therefore if you are using this to talk to soem hardware register that is physcially a 16 bit register the resulting code is not portable. Of course the fact that it depends on a particular bit of hardware probably makes it non-portably too. -tony From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Tue Jul 3 14:57:36 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 19:57:36 +0000 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch>, , <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E721F00033@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> >I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held >among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. You mean he didnt?? ;) From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 14:58:38 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 15:58:38 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF3479A.6040003@neurotica.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> <20120703202923.bb87986d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4FF3479A.6040003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7652A660-2E65-4515-A7B1-3E67E8899DFA@gmail.com> On Jul 3, 2012, at 3:27 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/03/2012 02:29 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >>> On every platform I work on, and indeed every platform I've >>> *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and unsigned int has >>> been 32. That includes the 8-bitters as well. >> No. avr-gcc uses 16 bits / 2 bytes for int / unsigned int. >> I am looking at this very moment to a LCD connected to a ATmega168 that >> printed sizeof( unsigned int) on said LCD. > > I just went and looked, and I must apologize, you are absolutely > correct! I don't know what I was thinking when I mentioned AVR the > other day. I'm hip-deep in firmware and it's hot in here; that's my excuse. > > However, and I maintain that this is the more salient point, the code > still works. ;) But see below. The bright side is that going *up* in bit size (like you're doing from AVR to ARM) usually works. The big counter-example is when someone has done something too-clever-by-half like using integer overflow to perform an automatic modulo in order to save cycles. In cases like that, you absolutely need to know the bit width of your variables, and the not-knowing can produce sneaky bugs that are very difficult to track down. I absolutely agree that it's important to know the salient features of your architecture, such as native bit-widths. "Salient" for me for the AVR architecture includes the fact that it's an 8-bit architecture and that 16-bit math is actually not so cheap on it (the only 16-bit native ALU instructions are for moving and adding/subtracting immediates, and I would hazard a guess that you only get them because they are leftover "bonuses" in the ALU for the X, Y and Z regs). So when I'm writing code I know will be targeted for the AVR, I tend to use uint8_t a lot more (and yes, I use it because the name carries the semantics for the reader that I am not necessarily using this as a character string). I guess that brings up another reason I happen to like those stdint.h typedefs: they give semantics to the reader ("I REALLY WANT this to be 16 bits") that "unsigned short" does not. It's proven useful to me when porting other people's code. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 15:04:12 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:04:12 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120703120632.B56028@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <20120703120632.B56028@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3148FCA1-9BA7-4100-B819-761CC7AD61ED@gmail.com> On Jul 3, 2012, at 3:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Those other "prehistoric" machines "don't really count". They were just > "leading up to the first PC". > (no mouse? no hard disk? no GUI? etc. (although even ALL of those > arbitrary "requirements to BE a PC" far preceded Mac)) Also, the first Mac didn't have a hard drive except as a late aftermarket add-on (which reminds me, I need to offload the contents of our old HD 20 before it succumbs to shelf-rot). - Dave From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jul 3 15:10:50 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 13:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1341346250.71271.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 7/3/12, Steven Hirsch wrote: > FYI: At about 1:30pm EST I received a > notice from RS/Newark that they were accepting orders for > the RPi in the US.? Within 1/2 hour their server was > down.? And, no, I didn't make it.? Got as far as > setting up the shopping basket and went bye, bye. > > Methinks they may have received a lot of responses. And if you simply visit their site, and search "raspberry pi" in the search box, it helpfully takes you to a page telling you that they'll be "Opening to order SOON!". And it lists the specs of the device, and the various bundles. Nowhere does it bother to list how much any of it costs, however. -Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 15:07:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 21:07:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Jul 3, 12 07:58:48 pm Message-ID: > > .. I overheard two teenage girls examining each other on tech history. > > Girl A : "The first PC was ....?" > Girl B : "...the Macintosh !" > Girl A, looking in her textbook : "Correct !" > > Sigh....... ARGH!!!! > > > Of course "first PC" is open to debate, but a Mac ? Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. And yes, we've debated what the 'first PC' was many times. It depends on what a 'PC' is. I'll go for the HP9830, being the first all-in-one machine that ran a high-level language from ROM. You put it on a desk, plugged it into the mains and started programming. > I should probably be happy that they learn *something* about tech history. Err, no. IMHO learnign incorrect information is worse than not learing it at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 3 15:14:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 21:14:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jul 3, 12 12:25:10 pm Message-ID: > > > In article <4FF332D8.7050808 at bluewin.ch>, > Jos Dreesen writes: > > > I should probably be happy that they learn *something* about tech history. > > What good does it do if they learn the wrong things? Agreed. HAving to 'unlearn' stuff is worse than never knowing it. A rather more pleasant 'overheard on the bus' story. Some time back I was (literally) 'Tha man on the Clapham omnibus' I overheard a gentleman talking into his sellular phone (I don't make a habit of eavesdropping, but soething he said made me sit up). He menitoend the name 'Maurice Wilkes'. After he had finished, I said that I couldn't help overhearing (I was sitting very close to him) and asked if it was the 'Maurice WIlkes' that I was thinking of, involved with EDSAC and all that. It was. It turned out said gentleman had worked one delay line stores at Plessey. Alas the journey was not long enough for me to discuss all I wanted to.... -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jul 3 15:19:45 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 13:19:45 -0700 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch>, <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 11:40 AM -0700 7/3/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 3 Jul 2012 at 12:25, Richard wrote: > >> What good does it do if they learn the wrong things? > >I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held >among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. > >--Chuck But... But... He did! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 15:22:06 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:22:06 -0400 Subject: C++ compiler standards compliance (was: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America) In-Reply-To: References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7FA866EF-C5AD-48F8-ABAD-7814238BEB4C@gmail.com> On Jul 3, 2012, at 2:38 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9 at gmail.com>, > David Riley writes: > >> [...] That's why we have ptrdiff_t. >> stdint.h is your friend, and anyone not implementing it (*cough* >> MSVC *cough*) is not. > > ptrdiff_t has been in MSVC for a long time. > > In a private reply, David indicated that he meant to say > instead of ptrdiff_t. is not present in VS2008, but is > present in VS2010. In fact, I said both (look above). What I did *not* mean to do was imply that MSVC did not have ptrdiff_t, something of which I had no idea and about which I had nothing to say. In retrospect, my statement was worded rather poorly, so apologies for that. > However, ptrdiff_t doesn't come from , it comes from > , which is present in VS2008, and although I don't have them > installed, I suspect that it was present in MSVC going all the way > back to VC6, which is about 15 years old at this point. > > I don't mind people picking on the standards compliance of a C++ > compiler, but you should at least be accurate when you complain about > it or imply that it doesn't support something. > > Microsoft's compiler has been getting better with each and every release > and hasn't ever been "bad" in my opinion. (Anyone who asserts that > they should support 100% of the standard in the first release hasn't > been reading the standard.) gcc/g++ doesn't support all of the current > (or previous) ISO standards for C++ either. I more or less agree; VS2008 was the first one I used that didn't drive me absolutely batty from a standards point of view. 2010 is theoretically much better, but I haven't had much cause to do much Windows programming recently, and the last time I did, some critical components I was using (specifically, CUDA and OpenCL support from ATI) didn't support VS2010 without major patching. I shouldn't imagine it's gotten any worse. My chief issue with MSVC from a standards point of view has almost always been the lack of stdint.h, which I use quite a lot. It's easy enough to drop in a hand-rolled replacement, since Microsoft has gone to great pains to make sure that nothing is changing (even to the point of making "long" 32-bit on 64-bit architectures because there's so much crappy code kicking around blindly assuming that "long" is 32 bits), but I still feel uncomfortable not having that from the compiler vendor. I'm glad to hear that's been rectified; if I ever get the time to do game programming again, I'll be glad to see what else has improved. - Dave From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jul 3 15:22:56 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:22:56 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch>, <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <7ACFC7EF556748A2B6BEB47BF2A359FF@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:40 PM Subject: Re: Today, in the bus to work... > On 3 Jul 2012 at 12:25, Richard wrote: > >> What good does it do if they learn the wrong things? > > I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held > among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. > > --Chuck > > No, he invented the portable music player! ;) From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jul 3 10:03:10 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 08:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: <1341346250.71271.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1341346250.71271.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Tue, 7/3/12, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> FYI: At about 1:30pm EST I received a >> notice from RS/Newark that they were accepting orders for >> the RPi in the US.? Within 1/2 hour their server was >> down.? And, no, I didn't make it.? Got as far as >> setting up the shopping basket and went bye, bye. >> >> Methinks they may have received a lot of responses. > > And if you simply visit their site, and search "raspberry pi" in the search box, it helpfully takes you to a page telling you that they'll be "Opening to order SOON!". And it lists the specs of the device, and the various bundles. > > Nowhere does it bother to list how much any of it costs, however. > I got an email from Newark today with a link to their store. They're limiting the order to 10 each and project late August as the ship date. Might have to order a second one. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Jul 3 16:04:08 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 22:04:08 +0100 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <3148FCA1-9BA7-4100-B819-761CC7AD61ED@gmail.com> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <20120703120632.B56028@shell.lmi.net> <3148FCA1-9BA7-4100-B819-761CC7AD61ED@gmail.com> Message-ID: How about this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programma_101 or this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Alto On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 9:04 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Jul 3, 2012, at 3:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Those other "prehistoric" machines "don't really count". They were just >> "leading up to the first PC". >> (no mouse? no hard disk? no GUI? etc. (although even ALL of those >> arbitrary "requirements to BE a PC" far preceded Mac)) > > Also, the first Mac didn't have a hard drive except as a late > aftermarket add-on (which reminds me, I need to offload the > contents of our old HD 20 before it succumbs to shelf-rot). > > > - Dave > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better? Amelia: Yeah. Doctor: Everything's going to be fine. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 16:07:17 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 23:07:17 +0200 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid> <87F725A5-8FA9-4595-93EB-00882747A5B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > FYI: At about 1:30pm EST I received a notice from RS/Newark that they were > accepting orders for the RPi in the US. Within 1/2 hour their server was > down. And, no, I didn't make it. Got as far as setting up the shopping > basket and went bye, bye. > > Methinks they may have received a lot of responses. > > Steve I just submitted my order to RS, after getting emails from Farnell first (this morning) and RS later. RS is slightly cheaper, at least to France (where I am now). Just under 31 GBP once all was said and done, whereas Farnell would have come out to about 35 or 36 GBP. Maybe I just got lucky... Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From gyorpb at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 16:09:56 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 23:09:56 +0200 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 Jul 2012, at 22:07 , Tony Duell wrote: >> .. I overheard two teenage girls examining each other on tech history. >> >> Girl A : "The first PC was ....?" >> Girl B : "...the Macintosh !" >> Girl A, looking in her textbook : "Correct !" >> >> Sigh....... > > ARGH!!!! > >> Of course "first PC" is open to debate, but a Mac ? > > Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl > can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. Maybe the textbook said, "Apple II", a defensible answer. Some people think Mac and Apple are synonymous. .tsooJ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 16:11:42 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 14:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120703141003.O64027@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl > can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. It was the first computer owned by the author of their textbook. That's how MOST "first computer" determinations are made, since anything prior to THAT was just "leading up to the first computer" From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jul 3 16:19:58 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 14:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements Message-ID: Can someone point me to a source for replacement switch paddles for the IMSAI 8080? Todd Fischer of imsai.net tells me that he has red ones, but no blue ones left. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 16:23:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 14:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120703141338.R64027@shell.lmi.net> > > I should probably be happy that they learn *something* about tech history. On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Err, no. IMHO learnign incorrect information is worse than not learing it > at all. . . . and then, when they become teachers, they promulgate that same nonsense as confirmed fact" That's how we get Elisha Gray and Leif Ericson dropped from history, George Washington and the cherry tree, "Henry Ford invented the automobile", and Columbus' mission revised as being "to prove the world is round"! (all educated people at the time knew that it was round, and they had a pretty good idea of the exact size; Columbus was trying to prove that it is 1/3 of its size!) Fact checking is NOT required, not encouraged, when writing a history textbook. Curricula is finalized by the most ignorant. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 16:30:21 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 23:30:21 +0200 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > When I looked (after it was hyped i nthe press, and after I had to > navigate past various Rpi pages to get the bits I wanted from Farnell), I > didn't see anything to suggest that this was not the final product. > Neither in the press nor on the sites I (briefly) looked at. I think the hardware is fixed and final, and has been for a while. [ discussion about openness ] > DOn;t get me wrong, a piece of hardware is a physical thing and it;s > obvious you have to pay for it. But even thought the Rpi is cheap, it's > still expensive enough that I (for one) would bot buy one unless I knew > it coule be useful. Buying things you haev no use for is simply wasting > money. > > AS a result, releasing in a 'beta' version and not stating it was not > finished seems like a rather bad idea. I see shades of history - though maybe it's a bit of an ill omen... It's not too different from the Amiga launch. The hardware was finished, but the firmware (Kickstart) ... not so much. Oh well, instead of putting in ROMS, have the "firmware" be loaded from the floppy! Having had a look at the bootdisk^H^H^H^HSDcard creating prodcedure (see http://elinux.org/RPi_Advanced_Setup, section "Setting up the boot partition") it appears the boot procedure is as follows: the GPU loads the binary blob start.elf or one of two other similar blobs, depending on what RAM configuration you want. Then bootcode.bin and loader.bin are loaded, (probably binary blobs as well) which also read the plaintext file config.txt, where hardware settings can be specified in plaintext (core voltages, timings, etc). Then, kernel.img (or some other file described in config.txt) is loaded which may or may not be a linux image (without the need of compiled-in binary blobs AFAICT). So, the foundation can still modify the firmware simply by distributing new blobs, and I guess that for the system to be truly open, those three blobs need to be reverse-engineered. Again, not dissimilar to the Amiga Kickstart, IMHO. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 16:41:32 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 23:41:32 +0200 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120703125458.A56028@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> <20120703125458.A56028@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 9:55 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held >> among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. > > They are already TEACHING that! AS THEY SHOULD! I know there are some that claim that computers went through some sort of hypothetical process where out computers were somehow built based on older designs. HA! I ask you, if Dells really begat Macs, WHY ARE THERE STILL DELLS? I mean really, who would believe this stupid stuff! It's really just a convoluted scheme to lead kids away from the glory that is Steve Jobs and His company, which is Apple. If you look at a Mac, it should be obvious they sprang forth fully-formed from His genius. There is NO PROOF that any IBM is older than 20 years. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 16:44:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 14:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <7ACFC7EF556748A2B6BEB47BF2A359FF@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch>, <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> <7ACFC7EF556748A2B6BEB47BF2A359FF@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <20120703144400.T64027@shell.lmi.net> > > I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held > > among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, TeoZ wrote: > No, he invented the portable music player! ;) and the cellphone From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 17:53:27 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 18:53:27 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl > can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. First consumer machine with a 3.5" floppy (and/or no 5.25" floppy in the era of floppies being standard)? First consumer machine with bit-mapped-only video (no text mode)? First consumer machine that 100% shipped with a mouse? > And yes, we've debated what the 'first PC' was many times. It depends on > what a 'PC' is. Yes, we have. It's all about what criteria are selected. > I'll go for the HP9830, being the first all-in-one > machine that ran a high-level language from ROM. You put it on a desk, > plugged it into the mains and started programming. That certainly meets several of the typical criteria. I personally feel that high-level-language in ROM is not a defining characteristic, but in 1972 it was definitely an advanced feature. S-100 machines soft-loaded BASIC (a few years later) and are still personal computers. The Apple II soft-loaded AppleSoft BASIC. I'm sure there are more examples. It is not, however, a stretch to say that the first personal computer was invented long before 1984 (or 1981). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 17:54:13 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 18:54:13 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:40 AM -0700 7/3/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held >> among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. > > But... But... He did! And Paul McCartney is rumoured to have been in a band before "Wings". -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 3 17:57:02 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 16:57:02 -0600 Subject: C++ compiler standards compliance (was: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America) In-Reply-To: <7FA866EF-C5AD-48F8-ABAD-7814238BEB4C@gmail.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> <7FA866EF-C5AD-48F8-ABAD-7814238BEB4C@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <7FA866EF-C5AD-48F8-ABAD-7814238BEB4C at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > On Jul 3, 2012, at 2:38 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > In article <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9 at gmail.com>, > > David Riley writes: > > > >> [...] That's why we have ptrdiff_t. > >> stdint.h is your friend, and anyone not implementing it (*cough* > >> MSVC *cough*) is not. > > > > ptrdiff_t has been in MSVC for a long time. > > > > In a private reply, David indicated that he meant to say > > instead of ptrdiff_t. is not present in VS2008, but is > > present in VS2010. > > In fact, I said both (look above). What I did *not* mean to do was > imply that MSVC did not have ptrdiff_t, something of which I had no > idea and about which I had nothing to say. In retrospect, my > statement was worded rather poorly, so apologies for that. Fair enough. > I more or less agree; VS2008 was the first one I used that didn't > drive me absolutely batty from a standards point of view. I think what irritated me in earlier releases was the state of the standard library, which they bought from P. J. Plaugher and didn't implement themselves. I believe in 2010 and beyond they're using their own implementation now. > My chief issue with MSVC from a standards point of view has almost > always been the lack of stdint.h, which I use quite a lot. I have to say that I hadn't noticed the lack of this header, but most of my non-Windows C/C++ programming was prior to it's standardization with C99. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 18:14:17 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 19:14:17 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120703144400.T64027@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> <7ACFC7EF556748A2B6BEB47BF2A359FF@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20120703144400.T64027@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 5:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held >> > among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. > On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, TeoZ wrote: >> No, he invented the portable music player! ;) > > and the cellphone And the Look-and-Feel lawsuit... -ethan From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 18:23:31 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 00:23:31 +0100 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: 03 July 2012 23:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Today, in the bus to work... > > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Zane H. Healy > wrote: > > At 11:40 AM -0700 7/3/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held > >> among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. > > > > But... But... He did! > > And Paul McCartney is rumoured to have been in a band before "Wings". > Yes, I think they were "The Quarrymen" ..... > -ethan > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 18:37:50 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 18:37:50 -0500 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4FF3824E.1070007@gmail.com> On 07/03/2012 12:58 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > .. I overheard two teenage girls examining each other on tech history. > > Girl A : "The first PC was ....?" > Girl B : "...the Macintosh !" > Girl A, looking in her textbook : "Correct !" My ten year old brought home a similar thing a few months ago, but at least the correct answer was supposedly just 'Apple'. Amused to see a classified wanted ad earlier for a "1960's Pac-Man arcade game", though. cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 19:08:14 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 20:08:14 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Dave wrote: >> And Paul McCartney is rumoured to have been in a band before "Wings". >> > Yes, I think they were "The Quarrymen" ..... Indeed. Famous all over the North, as I hear it. -ethan From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jul 3 19:20:23 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 17:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120703120632.B56028@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <20120703120632.B56028@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1341361223.31498.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin Naaah. Those other "prehistoric" machines "don't really count"...snip C: Well after all we don't consider the abacus or the slide rule as early peecees. So maybe the Mac was the first peecee. ?On 2nd thought, I think it was the Mindset ;). Beat out the Mac w/cartridge ports at least... From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 3 19:23:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 20:23:09 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703011822.GD31814@brevard.conman.org> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> <20120703011822.GD31814@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4FF38CED.503@neurotica.com> On 07/02/2012 09:18 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > True. I've been playing around with viola [1] and it *barely* works on a > modern system and won't at all on a 64 bit system, due to the "an int is a > pointer is a long" mentality of the code. Ick. Treating pointers as ints has always been dangerous. K&R themselves said that, even in their first edition if I recall correctly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jul 3 19:26:59 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 17:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM (Sony) 6091 19 monitor Message-ID: <1341361619.73312.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I figured I'd pay my last respects before these got chucked. Could be in better shape cosmetically (but, uh, everything about a monitor is cosmetic, no?), but they were working the last time I turned them on. I used to get big bucks for these bad boys. But their day has long come and gone :(. Damned LCDs! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jul 3 19:27:02 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 17:27:02 -0700 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 6:54 PM -0400 7/3/12, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> At 11:40 AM -0700 7/3/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> I figure it's just a matter of a short time before the view held >>> among young-uns is that Steve Jobs invented the computer. >> >> But... But... He did! > >And Paul McCartney is rumoured to have been in a band before "Wings". Oh, is he famous for something other than having been Linda McCartney's husband, and being Mary McCartney's father (I have books by both sitting here). I thought "Wings" was a TV show. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 19:56:14 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 01:56:14 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 July 2012 19:33, Tony Duell wrote: >> The thing to remember is that it is not finished yet. This is not the >> final product. > > When I looked (after it was hyped i nthe press, and after I had to > navigate past various Rpi pages to get the bits I wanted from Farnell), I > didn't see anything to suggest that this was not the final product. > Neither in the press nor on the sites I (briefly) looked at. > >> The motto of Open Source is "release early, release often". They >> shoved the hardware out the door as soon as they could. The OS(es) >> is(are) not finished, there is no case, there is no ecosystem or >> infrastructure around it. > > I can think of 3 things wrong with that : > > 1) It's not open. You yourself said that. Given a piece of oepn-sourve > softwre, it is possible (if you are sufficiently technical) to figure out > a lot from the source. Given a piece of closed-source software, running > on a machine which at the time had no released scheamtics (they are > released now, but as you say, things change), you have an alomst > impossible job figuring it out without docuemtnation > > 2) It's not software > > 3) And therefore it's not free. A peice of software can be easily copied, > and thus it cna be made esentially free. A piece of hardware cannot. > DOn;t get me wrong, a piece of hardware is a physical thing and it;s > obvious you have to pay for it. But even thought the Rpi is cheap, it's > still expensive enough that I (for one) would bot buy one unless I knew > it coule be useful. Buying things you haev no use for is simply wasting > money. > > AS a result, releasing in a 'beta' version and not stating it was not > finished seems like a rather bad idea. No, the hardware is not FOSS. It's?not FOS and it's not S(/W). But it is designed and intended to run FOSS OSes. Exclusively, in fact. It is intended to be a cheap Linux machine. The fact that other, non-FOSS OSes are being ported to it - well, one so far, RISC OS - is incidental. As for the unfinishedness and the beta state of this first version - I agree. It's barely been mentioned. It comes up in interviews and things occasionally. I think that they really ought to have emphasized it, not hidden it. But then, whereas I admire the spirit and intent of the project, I don't actually like the execution, myself. I don't like the proprietary GPU, I don't like the closed-source graphics driver, I don't like the crappy old-spec low-powered underperforming ARM core. I don't like the rather underspecced amount of RAM, which isn't really adequate to run Linux with a GUI. I don't like the fact that the Ethernet port is a USB device. I don't like the fact that there's no fast local storage. Now, some of these compromises were doubtless necessary to make it so very cheap, but then again, here is a commercial rival: http://liliputing.com/2012/05/via-apc-a-49-android-computer-with-an-arm11-cpu.html http://apc.io/ Item Description Model APC 8750 Software Android 2.3 (PC System) Chip VIA 800MHz Processor Memory DDR3 512MB Memory 2GB NAND Flash Graphics Built-in 2D/3D Graphic Resolution up to 720p Input and Output HDMI VGA USB 2.0 (x4) Audio out / Mic in microSD Slot Network 10/100 Ethernet Size 170 x 85mm (W x H) Neo-ITX Standard* US$49, or ?31.25. Better CPU, more RAM, more local storage, but inferior graphics and no GPIO. The AllWinner A10 SoC is a 1-1.25GHz ARM SoC with a complete system with GPU onboard for $7 in bulk. It's going to shake up this market and I think soon there will be multiple RasPi rivals at around the same price-point. If this means that an ecosystem of ARM Linux distros for low-end desktops develops, and lots of ARM Linux apps for low-spec machines, then all might be well - if they can all run each other's software, fine. If the kernel and the underlying graphics drivers are different but at the OS API level they're intercompatible, fine. If they're all different iterations of the ARM CPU core and thus are /not/ software compatible, problem. If the latter happens, I think RasPi may lose out, because rivals will be able to offer much more powerful machines for competitive prices. If some of those rivals also offer functionality equivalent to GPIO, and bundle some nice features like optional dual cores (which Linux can exploit well) or on-board SATA, then I think RasPi may end up getting slaughtered. OTOH, if that happens, then perhaps they can just release a RasPi SE or Mark II or something, with an AllWinner CPU and the same form-factor or something. There is a chance, I reckon, that the RasPi may end up like the IBM PC. Quite respectably successful in its own right, but more important for the whole market sector it spawned of enhanced-but-compatible machines. At the end of the day, if it means that the endless march of boring beige x86 boxes is replaced or supplanted or supplemented with little silent, cool-running, all-solid-state no-moving-parts legacy-free ARM machines running Linux, getting kids in the developing world online at prices so cheap that a couple of billion poor people can afford them, then I will be delighted and I don't care who does it - RasPi Foundation, Via, nVidia or whoever. Hell, if the Chinese come up with a rival system based on the Longson/Godson family of MIPS-compatible chips, I'm cool with that as well. Variety is good. Maybe it's time for the RISC resurgence. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 20:06:41 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 22:06:41 -0300 Subject: IBM (Sony) 6091 19 monitor References: <1341361619.73312.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <21e101cd5981$55c8d210$6600a8c0@tababook> I had one, it weighted more than me! :oO --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Tofu" To: "General Discussion: On- Topic and Off- Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 9:26 PM Subject: IBM (Sony) 6091 19 monitor >I figured I'd pay my last respects before these got chucked. Could be in >better shape cosmetically (but, uh, everything about a monitor is cosmetic, >no?), but they were working the last time I turned them on. I used to get >big bucks for these bad boys. But their day has long come and gone :(. >Damned LCDs! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 3 20:08:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:08:29 -0400 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF3978D.5050300@neurotica.com> On 07/03/2012 08:56 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Maybe it's time for the RISC resurgence. Uhh. Has it not been the case for some time that there are far more RISC processors around than CISC/etc? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 20:08:44 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 22:08:44 -0300 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... References: Message-ID: <21f001cd5981$b0649f10$6600a8c0@tababook> > Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl > can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. I can think in lots of them, but none of them "first personal computer". From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 20:34:41 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 02:34:41 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF3978D.5050300@neurotica.com> References: <4FF3978D.5050300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 4 July 2012 02:08, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/03/2012 08:56 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Maybe it's time for the RISC resurgence. > > Uhh. Has it not been the case for some time that there are far more > RISC processors around than CISC/etc? Absolutely. Now, tell me, how many of them do you see powering desktops and laptops? Workstations? Servers? Very few. They're in all manner of pocket electronics, and embedded into a billion bits of consumer tech and white goods. They're not sitting driving screens and GUIs. They used to be. At one time, they were the great white hope that was going to vanquish x86. Well, in numbers, they do. But not in money, and not where x86 is strong. That is more of an Intel/Microsoft duopoly than ever. (The competition is stronger than it's been in 15y, but still...) I'd like to see that change. I loved my Archimedes. It was a fantastic desktop computer. I'd like a modern equivalent, some slick fast silent-running monstrously-powerful device with no active cooling and a sleek thin fast OS that you can open up and learn about. I.e., not Windows and not any form of bloody Unix. Bring back BeOS, or Lisp Machines, or something /different./ It's high time. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 20:37:46 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 02:37:46 +0100 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF2D7D8.18105.B5E0BA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <4FF2B787.7909.37A1E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20120703100627.X56028@shell.lmi.net> <4FF2D7D8.18105.B5E0BA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3 July 2012 19:30, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Jul 2012 at 10:11, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Or should we demand that computers be designed to CONFORM to each >> "reality"? > > Isn't that pretty much a fait accompli? > > Consider for a moment how the world of computing might appear today > if, say, APL was the "standard" computer language taught and used. Or Lisp. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 3 20:47:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 18:47:47 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF3978D.5050300@neurotica.com> References: , , <4FF3978D.5050300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF33E53.2056.2462E44@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jul 2012 at 21:08, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/03/2012 08:56 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > > Maybe it's time for the RISC resurgence. > > Uhh. Has it not been the case for some time that there are far more > RISC processors around than CISC/etc? Well, many x86 CPUs have RISC cores, so absolutely, not even counting ARM, PPC, etc. It'd be fun to see a hard-wired CPU again with, say, sparse-vector dot product or matrix transpose instructions. But that would be going back to my APL comment. When does today's math pedagogy introduce the idea of matrices and vectors, anyway? Before or after C programming? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 3 20:53:25 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:53:25 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <4FF2B787.7909.37A1E1@cclist.sydex.com> <20120703100627.X56028@shell.lmi.net> <4FF2D7D8.18105.B5E0BA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF3A215.4010701@neurotica.com> On 07/03/2012 09:37 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 3 July 2012 19:30, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 3 Jul 2012 at 10:11, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> Or should we demand that computers be designed to CONFORM to each >>> "reality"? >> >> Isn't that pretty much a fait accompli? >> >> Consider for a moment how the world of computing might appear today >> if, say, APL was the "standard" computer language taught and used. > > Or Lisp. :?) (world the would suck but would be very (elegant)) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 21:00:00 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 23:00:00 -0300 Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements References: Message-ID: <227901cd5988$d0315250$6600a8c0@tababook> Blue paint? :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Griffith" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 6:19 PM Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements > > Can someone point me to a source for replacement switch paddles for the > IMSAI 8080? Todd Fischer of imsai.net tells me that he has red ones, but > no blue ones left. > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 21:01:17 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 23:01:17 -0300 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch>, <4FF2DA1C.26805.BEBA2C@cclist.sydex.com> <7ACFC7EF556748A2B6BEB47BF2A359FF@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20120703144400.T64027@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <229001cd5988$fe7aafd0$6600a8c0@tababook> >> No, he invented the portable music player! ;) > and the cellphone And the mouse, the graphic interface, the keyboard and arcades (pong) From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jul 3 21:26:38 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:26:38 -0500 Subject: Strange Core Memory Behavior in a PDP-8/L In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF3A9DE.9080503@pico-systems.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 20:11:01 -0400 From: Michael Thompson To: cctech Subject: Strange Core Memory Behavior in a PDP-8/L Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The RICM is still wrestling with the core in the PDP-8. After replacing some diodes on the core stack we have all addresses working. We observed an interesting core memory behavior during our debugging last Saturday. We started the memory alignment procedure by looking at the STROBE FIELD 0 signal and the amplifier output on pin E1 of the sense amplifier. The STROBE signal was very late compared to Figure 5-6 in the 8/L Maintenance Manual. We ran a short JMP loop and adjusted the relationship with the trimpot on the M360 delay module. When we halted the processor and tried a examine core we only got just zeros. We adjusted the M360 delay back where it was and single step worked again. We found that the strobe-to-one-bit relationship was almost 100ns earlier when in single-step than it was with the processor running. We checked the whole timing path from MEM START at pin N2 of the M113 in slot C03, through all of the gates, delays, and flip-flops, and found no timing difference between single-step and running. Right now it looks like there is a 100ns delay difference between the READ(1) signal that turns on the current in the core and the bit signal showing up on the E1 pin of the sense amplifier when in the single-step and running. Is this normal behavior? The first thing that comes to mind is one-shot recovery time. I might guess that some component has degraded, and the one-shot has a different delay when it has been recently triggered vs. when it has sat for a while. (I'm assuming a classic 8, with discrete transistors, not a later machine built with ICs.) Most specifically, there probably is a transistor that resets the capacitor at the end of the one-shot cycle, and if that transistor is weak, it may not get the cap fully discharged before the next memory cycle starts. Most core memories had circuits to adjust drive current based on core plane temperature, maybe some adjusted timings as well. Also, check for dead decoupling capacitors, these could allow noise when running to alter timings. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jul 3 21:33:00 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:33:00 -0500 Subject: Modern computers with docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF3AB5C.4000600@pico-systems.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 11:07:27 -0500 From: Mark Tapley To: Subject: Modern computers with docs (was: Re: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac...) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 19:48 -0500 7/1/12, ARD wrote (more or less): > >More seriously, can you name a present-day computer where the > >manufactuers do supply schematics, data on ASICs, and the like? > Ummm, you want the transistor-level prints on a Core 2 Duo CPU? 290 million transistors! Really, if put on paper, it ought to fill a large room. The last machines I ever saw where schematics were available to the end users were the VAX-11/780 and the uVAX-II. The 780 schematics were as thick as a phone book and 11 x 17" pages. The uVAX-II was a lot smaller, it was a hierarchical description, but gave a lot of insight on how the processor and interface chips were organized. Jon From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jul 3 21:47:00 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 22:47:00 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4FF3AEA4.6060703@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/07/12 2:25 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4FF332D8.7050808 at bluewin.ch>, > Jos Dreesen writes: > >> I should probably be happy that they learn *something* about tech history. > > What good does it do if they learn the wrong things? > > Girl 1: Which was the first country to guarantee individual liberty? > Girl 2: China! > Girl 3: Right! Greece maybe? --T From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jul 3 21:46:07 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:46:07 -0500 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 21:07:39 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Today, in the bus to work... > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > >> .. I overheard two teenage girls examining each other on tech history. >> >> Girl A : "The first PC was ....?" >> Girl B : "...the Macintosh !" >> Girl A, looking in her textbook : "Correct !" >> >> Sigh....... >> > > ARGH!!!! > > >> Of course "first PC" is open to debate, but a Mac ? >> > > Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl > can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. > The Mac was the first MASS_MARKETED computer to use a mouse to steer a pointer on the screen. Of course, the Xerox Alto was the prototype of that. As for first PC, how about the Bendix G-15? Vacuum tubes, drum memory, and it sure only ran one program at a time, sometimes for weeks! Or, IBM 1620. Then, there was the LINC, about 50 were built in 1965, 2 K 12-bit words of core memory, discrete transistors, and a dot-drawing screen for editing online. Reel-to-reel mag tapes to serve like disks. And then the Altair 8080 and SW Tech 6800 machines. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jul 3 21:50:33 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 21:50:33 -0500 Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF3AF79.4030301@pico-systems.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 14:19:58 -0700 (PDT) From: David Griffith To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Can someone point me to a source for replacement switch paddles for the IMSAI 8080? Todd Fischer of imsai.net tells me that he has red ones, but no blue ones left. In this day of 3-d printers, maybe you can find somebody to print some. You ought to be able to get the ABS filament in blue. Jon From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 22:00:46 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 00:00:46 -0300 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> Are we talking PERSONAL computer here? What is the definition of PERSONAL? --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Elson" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 11:46 PM Subject: Re: Today, in the bus to work... > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 21:07:39 +0100 (BST) >> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Today, in the bus to work... >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain >> >> >>> .. I overheard two teenage girls examining each other on tech history. >>> >>> Girl A : "The first PC was ....?" >>> Girl B : "...the Macintosh !" >>> Girl A, looking in her textbook : "Correct !" >>> >>> Sigh....... >>> >> >> ARGH!!!! >> >> >>> Of course "first PC" is open to debate, but a Mac ? >>> >> >> Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl >> can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. >> > The Mac was the first MASS_MARKETED computer to use a mouse to steer a > pointer on the > screen. Of course, the Xerox Alto was the prototype of that. > > As for first PC, how about the Bendix G-15? Vacuum tubes, drum memory, > and > it sure only ran one program at a time, sometimes for weeks! Or, IBM > 1620. > Then, there was the > LINC, about 50 were built in 1965, 2 K 12-bit words of core memory, > discrete > transistors, and a dot-drawing screen for editing online. Reel-to-reel > mag tapes > to serve like disks. > > And then the Altair 8080 and SW Tech 6800 machines. > > Jon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 3 22:03:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 20:03:17 -0700 Subject: Modern computers with docs In-Reply-To: <4FF3AB5C.4000600@pico-systems.com> References: , <4FF3AB5C.4000600@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4FF35005.18920.28B4E11@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jul 2012 at 21:33, Jon Elson wrote: > The last machines I ever saw where schematics were available to the > end users were the VAX-11/780 and the uVAX-II. The 780 schematics > were as thick as a phone book and 11 x 17" pages. The uVAX-II was a > lot smaller, it was a hierarchical description, but gave a lot of > insight on how the processor and interface chips were organized. I don't care about schematics as much as I'd like to see the datasheets on the ICs. I might then be able to figure out where to probe for signals to determine the location of a bad part. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 3 22:16:51 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 20:16:51 -0700 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: I'm trying to think of anything that Steve Jobs invented. Does anyone know of something? He was a great person in some respects but inventer he wasn't. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 3 22:40:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 20:40:05 -0700 Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements In-Reply-To: <227901cd5988$d0315250$6600a8c0@tababook> References: , <227901cd5988$d0315250$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FF358A5.4700.2AD0115@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jul 2012 at 23:00, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Blue paint? :o) Disclaimer: I have not tried this, but others swear by it. Try automotive vinyl dye. Case-modders appear to love the stuff: http://www.gideontech.com/content/articles/202/1 --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 22:53:51 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 23:53:51 -0400 Subject: Modern computers with docs In-Reply-To: <4FF3AB5C.4000600@pico-systems.com> References: <4FF3AB5C.4000600@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > The last machines I ever saw where schematics were available to the > end users were the VAX-11/780 and the uVAX-II. The 780 schematics > were as thick as a phone book and 11 x 17" pages. The uVAX-II > was a lot smaller, it was a hierarchical description, but gave a lot > of insight on how the processor and interface chips were organized. The 11/750 and 11/730 also had full schematics and assembly drawings on thick slabs of 11"x17" paper, accompanied by several 8.5"x11" tomes of technical descriptions. I think even DEC stopped providing that level of documentation in most cases after about 1983 or so. I remember plenty of detailed Qbus docs but I don't remember running across the uVAX-II printset. That would be interesting to review. -ethan From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jul 3 23:14:42 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 00:14:42 -0400 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/07/12 11:16 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I'm trying to think of anything that Steve Jobs invented. > Does anyone know of something? > He was a great person in some respects but inventer > he wasn't. Inventors aren't great "inventors" either. You eventually need somebody to turn an invention into a product (some nerds forget this part). Ask Microsoft how well their 'inventors' are capturing the smart phone market. They have thousands of /them/. But no leader. Inventions that were never properly packaged and marketed are legion: Every failed business has a few. Steve Jobs was a visionary in product design, management and marketing. Nobody else had the vision that could save that company. (Anyone who remembers Apple from 1990-2011 can vouch for this.) That said, as a Mac user for 26 years, I completely denounce the ethics of Apple: their disdain for the open source community that they have depended upon, and their lack of responsibility in improving worker conditions and environmental responsibility throughout their supply chain. Maximising profit does not justify any of this. --Toby > Dwight > From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jul 3 23:16:14 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 21:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF3A215.4010701@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jul 3, 12 09:53:25 pm" Message-ID: <201207040416.q644GExQ11600086@floodgap.com> > >>> Or should we demand that computers be designed to CONFORM to each > >>> "reality"? > >> > >> Isn't that pretty much a fait accompli? > >> > >> Consider for a moment how the world of computing might appear today > >> if, say, APL was the "standard" computer language taught and used. > > > > Or Lisp. :_) > > (world the would suck but would be very (elegant)) awesome(X) :- is_prolog(X). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Apparently I am not very good at being tricky. -- John Hughes -------------- From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 23:18:20 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 21:18:20 -0700 Subject: Modern computers with docs In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3AB5C.4000600@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Jul 3, 2012 8:54 PM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > > I remember plenty of detailed Qbus docs but I don't remember running > across the uVAX-II printset. That would be interesting to review. > > -ethan There's this: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/630/MP02071_630QB_Mar85.pdf From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Jul 3 23:19:30 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 01:19:30 -0300 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <201207040419.q644Jj81090406@billy.ezwind.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl > > can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. Alan Kay said "The Mac is the first computer good enough to be criticized". But he considers the Linc to be the first personal computer. Some people object to that because the owners paid for them with government money rather than out of their own pockets, but I don't agree that should be an issue. > First consumer machine with a 3.5" floppy (and/or no 5.25" floppy in > the era of floppies being standard)? The HP 150 came out two months earlier. > First consumer machine with > bit-mapped-only video (no text mode)? Sinclair Spectrum, Corvus Concept and Multitech (now Acer) Microprofessor II are a few of the earlier bitmapped machines. The Concept was a bit more expensive than the Mac, but not absurdly so like the Lisa. > First consumer machine that > 100% shipped with a mouse? That is true, as far as I know. -- Jecel From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Jul 3 23:31:51 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 01:31:51 -0300 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201207040432.q644W4kd090565@billy.ezwind.net> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > When I looked (after it was hyped i nthe press, and after I had to > > navigate past various Rpi pages to get the bits I wanted from Farnell), I > > didn't see anything to suggest that this was not the final product. > > Neither in the press nor on the sites I (briefly) looked at. > > I think the hardware is fixed and final, and has been for a while. It is a bit subtle, but in http://www.raspberrypi.org/faqs we have "Will it have a case? Not for the first batch. We'll be making and selling cases by the summer; you'll be able to buy a unit with or without a case, or a case on its own. The education release later in 2012 will have a case by default. There are lots of homebrew case discussions on the forum." The "educational release" (probably out in September or so to coincide with the school year) should be considered the final product and the current version should be considered a developer's preview version. On the parallel thread about "interesting" computers such as Lisp Machines or APL architectures, I design Smalltalk computers. Though the first products will not be in the Raspberry Pi's price range, the plan is to get there as soon as possible. Though the first version will use FPGAs and Verilog, I have a friend who wants to build a TTL implementation as an educational exercise. But that is the future and this list is about the past :-) -- Jecel From radioengr at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 00:01:36 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 22:01:36 -0700 Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF3CE30.6030408@gmail.com> On 7/3/2012 2:19 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Can someone point me to a source for replacement switch paddles for the > IMSAI 8080? Todd Fischer of imsai.net tells me that he has red ones, but > no blue ones left. > > Mouser has paddles. The Red ones are very close to the original IMSAI. The Blue ones are quite a bit lighter. You can either darken the light blue paddles our just replace all of them. At $0.73 each, it wouldn't break the bank. See: http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=AT4157 Rob. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jul 4 00:54:10 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 22:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements In-Reply-To: <4FF3CE30.6030408@gmail.com> References: <4FF3CE30.6030408@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Rob Doyle wrote: > On 7/3/2012 2:19 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Can someone point me to a source for replacement switch paddles for the >> IMSAI 8080? Todd Fischer of imsai.net tells me that he has red ones, but >> no blue ones left. > Mouser has paddles. The Red ones are very close to the original IMSAI. > The Blue ones are quite a bit lighter. You can either darken the light blue > paddles our just replace all of them. At $0.73 each, it > wouldn't break the bank. > > See: > > http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=AT4157 Almost perfect! I wonder if a treatment of vinyl dye (as suggested earlier) will darken to blue ones to the correct shade. What bugs me most about this repair job is that I had a baggie full of them a couple weeks ago and now I can't find them anywhere. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Jul 4 01:09:42 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 07:09:42 +0100 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 5:14 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > That said, as a Mac user for 26 years, I completely denounce the ethics of > Apple: their disdain for the open source community that they have depended > upon, and their lack of responsibility in improving worker conditions and > environmental responsibility throughout their supply chain. Maximising > profit does not justify any of this. If the Ipad keeps taking off, and the Microsoft Slate with it, then they will have succeeded in doing unimaginable damage to the open source community. We will tell you what apps you can and cannot write. We will publish them for you, period. Disgusting. I don't want a device I can't write what I want for. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better? Amelia: Yeah. Doctor: Everything's going to be fine. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 01:28:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 02:28:36 -0400 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> On 07/04/2012 02:09 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > If the Ipad keeps taking off, and the Microsoft Slate with it, then > they will have succeeded in doing unimaginable damage to the open > source community. > > We will tell you what apps you can and cannot write. We will publish > them for you, period. > > Disgusting. I don't want a device I can't write what I want for. I absolutely agree with you, don't get me wrong. I moved away from MacOS X for a reason. But I have to ask...how do you think this will do damage to the open source community? In my view (which may be flawed, which is why I'm asking), by its very nature that community is completely impervious to that sort of buffoonery. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From axelsson at acc.umu.se Tue Jul 3 05:19:02 2012 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 12:19:02 +0200 Subject: Raspberry Pi and pressing your own ribbon cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF2C716.10802@acc.umu.se> Tony Duell skrev 2012-07-02 20:12: > I also agree that the board should be avaialble on its own, with no > OS-on-a-card, no manual, etc, for people who want to have more than > one and use them as embedded systems. It would eb silly to ahve to pay > for multiple manuals then. I don't know how the RaspberryPi was initially advertised, I've only followed the project from November. At that time the plan seemed to be to get hardware out to early enthusiasts as soon as possible and then fill in the missing items as manuals, case, preloaded OS and so on until the real target audience could buy them. One of the main targets are schools and the timetable for that was after the summer. By releasing the hardware early on they have made it possible to have a lot of hardware designs and software ported to the Pi before offering them to the schools, a lot more than the foundation could make on their own. Soon RS is going to release the Pi for general sale and they expect delivery times or four weeks at that point. Right now we see a lot of third party development from people that got their hands on a pi early on. The gertboard (I/O breakout board with buffers) connects to the Pi, you can build VAX clusters by running simh, there's a ladder game where you have to connect some switches and diodes.... even instructions on how to press your own ribbon cable. http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/1404 complete with a video. I agree with you that there is too much interesting things coming out all the time so if it doesn't looks good on the first look it is easily dismissed. I do it all the time. But at least I think that the Pi is a cool gadget at that price/performance and that their strategy to release hardware as early as possible is the right thing to do. I just wish I had a lot more time to play with it... just thought of another usage for it. As a serial to ethernet adapter for my ND-100 mini computer, telnet in to it and get connected to the serial port. The GPIO can be used to push the reboot and other front panel buttons via relays. Ok, I could use another old PC, but at 3 watt and the size of a credit card I can hide the Pi inside the machine and even take the power from the ND-100. ... but first I'm going to build my Pi powered metal detector with built in GPS. :-) > -tony Regards, G?ran From wayward4now at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 18:24:26 2012 From: wayward4now at gmail.com (Ric Moore) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2012 19:24:26 -0400 Subject: NEC Spinwriter 5525 available In-Reply-To: <200707200205.55107.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200707200205.55107.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4FF37F2A.6030303@gmail.com> Do you still have that spinwriter?? God, I miss mine!! The print quality is the best, even if it is noisy as all get out. I would like to have it. Thanks! Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jul 4 01:38:21 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 02:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> If the Ipad keeps taking off, and the Microsoft Slate with it, then >> they will have succeeded in doing unimaginable damage to the open >> source community. >> We will tell you what apps you can and cannot write. [...] > [...] But I have to ask...how do you think this will do damage to > the open source community? I didn't write what you're responding to. But my take on it is that the death of open source envisaged there is a world in which there aren't any computers that don't subscribe to such paradigms, and the damage done in the short term consists of accustoming people to the idea that it's a reasonable and long-term-viable paradigm. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 01:50:50 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 02:50:50 -0400 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> On 07/04/2012 02:38 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> If the Ipad keeps taking off, and the Microsoft Slate with it, then >>> they will have succeeded in doing unimaginable damage to the open >>> source community. > >>> We will tell you what apps you can and cannot write. [...] > >> [...] But I have to ask...how do you think this will do damage to >> the open source community? > > I didn't write what you're responding to. But my take on it is that > the death of open source envisaged there is a world in which there > aren't any computers that don't subscribe to such paradigms, and the > damage done in the short term consists of accustoming people to the > idea that it's a reasonable and long-term-viable paradigm. Sure, but...does anyone actually believe that this will actually come to pass? I mean, heck, there are hobbyist-designed computers almost literally FLYING off the shelves these days, witness the Raspberry Pi and its ilk. Apple's continued good luck with iPad sales won't put a dent in the popularity of stuff like that (any more than it could put a dent in, say, sales of boxes of nails) and it certainly won't stop people from designing new ones. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From md.benson at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 01:58:40 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 07:58:40 +0100 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 4 Jul 2012, at 07:38, Mouse wrote: >>> If the Ipad keeps taking off, and the Microsoft Slate with it, then >>> they will have succeeded in doing unimaginable damage to the open >>> source community. > >>> We will tell you what apps you can and cannot write. [...] > >> [...] But I have to ask...how do you think this will do damage to >> the open source community? > > I didn't write what you're responding to. But my take on it is that > the death of open source envisaged there is a world in which there > aren't any computers that don't subscribe to such paradigms, and the > damage done in the short term consists of accustoming people to the > idea that it's a reasonable and long-term-viable paradigm. It's not a viable long-term paradigm. They tried to do this with PCs (closing the software off and rigging hard drives so it was hard to change them etc.), some companies still try and it never works. As long as a device exists that runs an operating system it has to be programmed. That also means it can potentially be reprogrammed (most have to be in order to update the software). Apple's devices are no impervious (see : jailbreak) and neither are most other people's. Ultimately, those that don't care will follow the bubble, those that give a crap will jailbreak, re-flash etc. and use open source and open-market apps. Also you overlooked Android, which on many devices is either easy to 'root' (i.e. jailbreak) and some manufacturers don't even restrict what you can run on it in the first place. It won't last (I hope). -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From md.benson at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 02:08:45 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 08:08:45 +0100 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 4 Jul 2012, at 07:50, Dave McGuire wrote: > Sure, but...does anyone actually believe that this will actually come > to pass? I mean, heck, there are hobbyist-designed computers almost > literally FLYING off the shelves these days, witness the Raspberry Pi > and its ilk. Apple's continued good luck with iPad sales won't put a > dent in the popularity of stuff like that (any more than it could put a > dent in, say, sales of boxes of nails) and it certainly won't stop > people from designing new ones. Exactly. People who care about being able to futz with stuff will continue to futz about with stuff they can futz with. Some will play with open stuff and use closed stuff as a 'commodity' device, like I use my iPhone. Others will hack their commodity devices to make them do what they want. The problem here is not that the change in paradigm of deices kills xyz it's that the ideas of how devices are built and work are changing rapidly and the open community needs to catch up and stop pushing OSs and software for desktops when they are going out of fashion as anything other than overgrown games consoles. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jul 4 02:11:55 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 03:11:55 -0400 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 12:14 AM Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... > On 03/07/12 11:16 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >> >> > > Steve Jobs was a visionary in product design, management and marketing. > Nobody else had the vision that could save that company. (Anyone who > remembers Apple from 1990-2011 can vouch for this.) > > > --Toby Visionary in product design, management, and marketing?.. you must have never heard of NEXT computer. Hell even the original Mac was a piece of unusable expensive junk that needed to be sorted out after Jobs was fired. How can somebody who screwed up the Apple III because of overheating demand the original Mac not have a cooling fan? It took designers to come up with the expandable Mac to get Apple going again after Jobs left. Jobs hated internal expansion with a passion and when he came back we got those funky colored Imacs that liked to self destruct from overheating after a few years (a common theme is seems). The end result of Jobs coming back is the death of Apple Computer and the start of Apple the toy store. Go ask Sony what happenes when a brand isn't cool anymore. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 02:18:20 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 04:18:20 -0300 Subject: A crappy android tablet running emulators References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <23a201cd59b5$566ab9c0$6600a8c0@tababook> http://youtu.be/kgQkpDlBwnM --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 02:24:18 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 03:24:18 -0400 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF3EFA2.4000503@neurotica.com> On 07/04/2012 03:08 AM, Mark Benson wrote: >> Sure, but...does anyone actually believe that this will actually >> come to pass? I mean, heck, there are hobbyist-designed computers >> almost literally FLYING off the shelves these days, witness the >> Raspberry Pi and its ilk. Apple's continued good luck with iPad >> sales won't put a dent in the popularity of stuff like that (any >> more than it could put a dent in, say, sales of boxes of nails) and >> it certainly won't stop people from designing new ones. > > Exactly. People who care about being able to futz with stuff will > continue to futz about with stuff they can futz with. Some will play > with open stuff and use closed stuff as a 'commodity' device, like I > use my iPhone. Others will hack their commodity devices to make them > do what they want. The problem here is not that the change in > paradigm of deices kills xyz it's that the ideas of how devices are > built and work are changing rapidly and the open community needs to > catch up and stop pushing OSs and software for desktops when they are > going out of fashion as anything other than overgrown games > consoles. Desktops (by which I assume you mean "non-tablets", and include "laptops") may be going out of "fashion", but they're not going away. Software developers, and don't underestimate how many there are, aren't coding on tablets. Real computers will continue to have a place for a long time to come. For the rest...I have an iPhone, the epitome of the "closed platform". Within minutes of trying, I had a UNIX shell on it, I had a compiler running on it (running ON the phone) and had built simh. Now I hack on OS/8 and RSTS/E on my iPhone 4 whenever I don't have access to a real computer and have some time to kill. (details upon request, I've re-done all this under iOS 5.1.1) People will always have a way to get around those little limitations. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jul 4 02:32:01 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 03:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201207040732.DAA12578@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [computer manufacturer control over applications] >> [M]y take on it is that the death of open source envisaged there is >> a world in which there aren't any computers that don't subscribe to >> such paradigms, and the damage done in the short term consists of >> accustoming people to the idea that it's a reasonable and >> long-term-viable paradigm. > Sure, but...does anyone actually believe that this will actually come > to pass? I don't believe it will come to pass. But I don't believe it won't either. I _fear_ it will. I find that scenario scarily plausible. Not in the near future, as you point out. Probably not in my lifetime. But, in a century or two of devolution into dystopia, I have no trouble imagining a world rather like the Corporate State crossed with 1984, in which the construction or possession of an unapproved computing device is cause for re-education, or in extreme cases destruction. I see acceptance of things like the iPad and the paradigms it brings as the thin edge of the wedge that would make such a future possible. I've seen it happen in related fields - look at how hard it is to find a fully-documented computer these days, because everyone made individually short-term reasonable decisions to not care until only the lunatic fringe (eg, us) still cares, and as a result they're hell to find, and I expect will soon (probably within my lifetime) be not just difficult and expensive but impossible. > I mean, heck, there are hobbyist-designed computers almost literally > FLYING off the shelves these days, witness the Raspberry Pi and its > ilk. A good illustration of my point, in a slightly different form: you have become so accustomed to undocumented hardware that you are actually citing a computer built around hardware whose documentation requires an NDA as a paragon of openness! That is a staggering attitude shift, and the goalpost-moving it implies forms a part of the creep I sketched above. Removing freedoms is most effectively done a tiny step at a time, individually too small to be noticed - like boiling a frog. Nobody seems to have noticed how much the tiny creeping steps have added up to already, and I see no reason to think they will stop before the frog is fully cooked. I really really hope I'm being excessively conspiracy-theorist here. But I'm having trouble convincing myself I am. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jul 4 02:38:08 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 03:38:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201207040738.DAA12654@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Also you overlooked Android, which on many devices is either easy to > 'root' (i.e. jailbreak) and some manufacturers don't even restrict > what you can run on it in the first place. Just try to find an Android device that doesn't have undocumented hardware requiring binary blob drivers. Control has to be applied from the bottom up to be effective, after all; the first step is to get it in place at the low levels. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Jul 4 02:46:10 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 08:46:10 +0100 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > > Exactly. People who care about being able to futz with stuff will continue to futz about with stuff they can futz with. Some will play with open stuff and use closed stuff as a 'commodity' device, like I use my iPhone. Others will hack their commodity devices to make them do what they want. The problem here is not that the change in paradigm of deices kills xyz it's that the ideas of how devices are built and work are changing rapidly and the open community needs to catch up and stop pushing OSs and software for desktops when they are going out of fashion as anything other than overgrown games consoles. > I'm sure they will. However, if I want to write popular stuff, that the great unwashed will use, I will have to use Apple's outdated crappy tools? Then I have to submit to them to distribute it? This is what Microsoft and Apple want, and have wanted forever, complete control of the "ecosystem". It is too much power to be put in their corporate hands. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better? Amelia: Yeah. Doctor: Everything's going to be fine. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 03:27:11 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 03:27:11 -0500 Subject: 2 X 12 micro backplane 54-13211, 1979 Message-ID: Does anyone know what this is or what it was used in? Thanks, Paul From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jul 4 03:32:19 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 09:32:19 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 July 2012 01:56, Liam Proven wrote: > > There is a chance, I reckon, that the RasPi may end up like the IBM > PC. Quite respectably successful in its own right, but more important > for the whole market sector it spawned of enhanced-but-compatible I think that's actually the point! From http://interviews.slashdot.org/story/11/09/14/1554243/eben-upton-answers-your-questions " We?ve said elsewhere that our dream scenario is that someone in China decides to copy our design and start knocking out millions of clones. Remember we?re a not-for-profit organization under English law, and all our trustees have other jobs, so we don?t have the same set of incentives as a regular company." Rob From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jul 4 03:32:19 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 09:32:19 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 July 2012 01:56, Liam Proven wrote: > > There is a chance, I reckon, that the RasPi may end up like the IBM > PC. Quite respectably successful in its own right, but more important > for the whole market sector it spawned of enhanced-but-compatible I think that's actually the point! From http://interviews.slashdot.org/story/11/09/14/1554243/eben-upton-answers-your-questions " We?ve said elsewhere that our dream scenario is that someone in China decides to copy our design and start knocking out millions of clones. Remember we?re a not-for-profit organization under English law, and all our trustees have other jobs, so we don?t have the same set of incentives as a regular company." Rob From codeblue at inbox.lv Wed Jul 4 03:41:44 2012 From: codeblue at inbox.lv (Code Blue) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 08:41:44 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: <20120703121058.GB32187@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <20120704084144.GA30743@inbox.lv> On Tue, Jul 03, 2012 at 01:27:38PM +0100, David Brownlee wrote: > On 3 July 2012 13:10, David Cantrell wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 07:56:52PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> > The machine boots because the GPU reads a FAT filesystem on the SD > >> > card, looks for files of certain names, loads them into RAM and then > >> > boots the ARM core and starts it executing. > >> Is that fully docuemtned? In otehr wordsm if you don't want video > >> functions at all, can you work with the bare metal? > > > > You probably need to use their boot-loader, to get the ARM part of the > > chip started, although I'm speculating here, I've not bothered to even > > look for that documentation, because I don't care. But once the ARM has > > started, I presume that everything after that (modulo some X11 drivers) > > is bog standard Linux, so could be replaced. > > There are non Linux operating systems being ported to the Pi (RISC OS > and at least two BSDs). I seem to recall some grumbling about less > than comprehensive documentation on bringing up a new OS on the > hardware, but I suspect that will also be fixed in time, plus it > always helps when you have multiple independent OS implementations for > a platform :) I remember OpenBSD people complaining bitterly about the abundance of binary blobishness with the RPi. Not that I have any bad feelings personally about the RPi but compared to other more open devices it doesn't seem to have much future if Linux is the only OS that runs on it. Only time will tell. I'd like an ARM-based development machine but I would look for a product with Tier 1 BSD support before I would buy one. Even a Guru Plug running Slackware looks much more attractive than the RPi at this moment in time. From md.benson at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 03:55:32 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 09:55:32 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <29831069.34431.1341391304484.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vecbc1> References: <29831069.34431.1341391304484.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vecbc1> Message-ID: <5526108792598347907@unknownmsgid> On 4 Jul 2012, at 09:37, Rob wrote: >> There is a chance, I reckon, that the RasPi may end up like the IBM >> PC. Quite respectably successful in its own right, but more important >> for the whole market sector it spawned of enhanced-but-compatible > > I think that's actually the point! Exactly. They aren't doing this for the profit, they are doing it for the drive into the community and to get people programming as a hobby. While yes I appreciate people have battered on about the documentation being part under NDA and that sucks for driver development, really that's not the part they are most interested in leveraging, they want a small device that people, kids especially, can doodle about with languages like C, Python etc on to get them enthused about creating software in a modern context in order to inspire a new generation to grow up with computer programming on the brain. The project is at an early stage, really largely still late development, but it's got the important thing - large amounts of traction with the community and a friendly introductory price tag. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From jws at jwsss.com Wed Jul 4 04:01:47 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 02:01:47 -0700 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF3EFA2.4000503@neurotica.com> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> <4FF3EFA2.4000503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF4067B.4070106@jwsss.com> On 7/4/2012 12:24 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Desktops (by which I assume you mean "non-tablets", and include > "laptops") may be going out of "fashion", but they're not going away. > Software developers, and don't underestimate how many there are, aren't > coding on tablets. Real computers will continue to have a place for a > long time to come. I think the makers of minicomputers thought this as well, from DEC down to Computer Automation, and the whole lot of them. Once the business model for the device shifts away I don't see a half a cup there, I see disaster. I don't think there is a way to see a shift that leaves an opening for something when things start to shift away from it. The people that you hire in 5 years won't have a clue about what to do w/o hand jestures talking to their pads, listening to them, an so forth. The supply of desktops may stay there, but I suspect the model that will survive is the thin client, not the reasonable Linux ready desktop. And there is already a huge fuss about the hardware protection key to even get the damn things to boot. I don't have a good vision of what is there. I have been thru too many paradigm shifts since they took away my keypunch, 2741, and 1403 printer to think this is good news. Seriously I was worried as the laptops started to sell well that there would be little incentive to grow the computing platform for the desktop. The whole Ipad thing has turned the IT type busniess model sideways in that it is so cheap to get on board with a "pad" now. It can't help but change the way things are done. My suggested way of thin clients and servers may not be it, but I suspect it won't be too far from that. Note that there are already a number of game companies running central servers complete with modified graphics cards and streaming out to pads, as well as the fact that an Ipad or android can run a thin client just fine. Jim From gyorpb at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 04:45:15 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 11:45:15 +0200 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <71F91E39-6948-4D65-B01C-823958370D2E@gmail.com> On 4 Jul 2012, at 9:46 , John Many Jars wrote: > I'm sure they will. However, if I want to write popular stuff, that > the great unwashed will use, I will have to use Apple's outdated > crappy tools? Then I have to submit to them to distribute it? You can always opt to target the Jailbreak market. Apple don't seem to care a whole lot about jailbreaking, except for explicitly not providing support. The key issue here is whether "alternative" computing will be actively shut out or not. The danger lies in extending the "walled garden" approach to the world at large, eg. denying open systems access to the internet. I find issues like net neutrality, for this reason and others, far mor eimportant than manufacturers offering closed systems. .tsooJ From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Jul 4 05:12:32 2012 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 12:12:32 +0200 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20120704121232.Horde.q6p6GaQd9PdP9BcQnLj10LA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Jos Dreesen wrote: > .. I overheard two teenage girls examining each other on tech history. > > Girl A : "The first PC was ....?" > Girl B : "...the Macintosh !" > Girl A, looking in her textbook : "Correct !" I just wanted to say.... I won't consider this as a big problem we realy need to start worrying about education! Why? The shool will always(!) simplify things to teach them to children. This has beend the case and always was the case. If you talk to higher educated people what they think is right what is being teached from their area of knownledge in the school (e.g. chemistry). you'll always here "this is wrong what they teach!" but this is the case. Children should not care about every detail for everything. This is what later education is for where you specialise for an area... everything before is "a little bit true, but not the full truth". I can give you examples of how children are being teached on how sulfuric acid is being produced but what they are being teached will _never_ work.... you can't load them with 1000000 details of 100000 areas of science. From david at cantrell.org.uk Wed Jul 4 06:25:18 2012 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 12:25:18 +0100 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120703112713.P56028@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF0C916.8010801@neurotica.com> <20120702225351.GB31814@brevard.conman.org> <0F2F7083-54E8-49C2-A5EC-308F30C91BB9@gmail.com> <20120703011822.GD31814@brevard.conman.org> <741983B2-8B61-41A2-BFAB-119F06BEBB09@gmail.com> <20120703152438.GB28143@brevard.conman.org> <20120703112713.P56028@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120704112518.GA24690@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Tue, Jul 03, 2012 at 11:38:24AM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > You COULD, with sufficient insanity, create a compiler wherein an int, > short-int, long-int are all 32 bit. or 64 bit. That'd be the Cray compiler. -- David Cantrell | even more awesome than a panda-fur coat It's my experience that neither users nor customers can articulate what it is they want, nor can they evaluate it when they see it -- Alan Cooper From george at rachors.com Wed Jul 4 08:06:42 2012 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 06:06:42 -0700 Subject: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <201207021641.q62GfVlA6029466@floodgap.com> References: <201207021641.q62GfVlA6029466@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8B8DC0B8-76DB-436F-ABCC-94FB183B8CFD@rachors.com> Cameron? The machine has 2.. Shall I try removing one at a time? George On Jul 2, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> After a few minutes plugged in.. (Battery still remove) we have gone back >> to the original systems. led flashes on while power button is depressed, >> The fans start briefly then slow back down. I hear the disk drive start >> but no other activity_ > > Check the processor module. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- I don't care who you are, stop walking on the water when I'm fishing! <>< -- > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 4 08:31:45 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 06:31:45 -0700 Subject: Modern computers with docs In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3AB5C.4000600@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4FF445C1.6090802@bitsavers.org> On 7/3/12 8:53 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I remember plenty of detailed Qbus docs but I don't remember running > across the uVAX-II printset. That would be interesting to review. it is on bitsavers From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 09:39:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 07:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, dwight elvey wrote: > I'm trying to think of anything that Steve Jobs invented. Steve Jobs! > Does anyone know of something? > He was a great person in some respects but inventer > he wasn't. He had a remarkable talent for coming up with the right TIMING for introducing the next iteration of existing products. He was extraordinarily skilful at marketing, and creating intense brand loyalty. iPod iPhone iPad were all versions of existing products that had not previously been very successful in the market. From cube1 at charter.net Wed Jul 4 09:46:40 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 09:46:40 -0500 Subject: Strange Core Memory Behavior in a PDP-8/L In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF45750.4000704@charter.net> Regardless of normality, I guess if it were me I'd be thinking about what could cause that. Looking at my drawings, it looks like there are some things might affect the timing of a memory readout with respect to READ(1), and since some of them are derived from manual vs. run timing, this may not be a big surprise. The things I spotted from the schamatics were: 1) The address lines being asserted. [Now, one would HOPE that those were locked in before strobing the memory, but maybe that is the problem, and that does look like the most likely culprit.] 2) The timing of the strobe pulse [Which *should* be fixed from the delay line.] 3) B MEM ENABLE (which also affects the current drivers) [But this signal *should* be static being drived from not power clear] 4) NEG CLAMP [This should also be static] I didn't see anything else, so you should probably look at the timing on the MA Load and MA lines vs. READ(1). Or, as another has suggested, a power supply / decoupling issue of some crazy sort. If the address lines are the issue, is it one or are they all (consistently) different in comparison to READ(1) in manual vs. RUN? If they are all (consistently) different with respect to READ(1) in manual vs. RUN, then I'd check MA LOAD and its relationship to READ(1). I noted that one line that controls MA LOAD is Not KEY CONT. The others are TP4 and MFTP1. MFTP1 also has a relationship to manual operation, of course. On 7/2/2012 7:11 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > The RICM is still wrestling with the core in the PDP-8. > After replacing some diodes on the core stack we have all addresses working. > > We observed an interesting core memory behavior during our debugging > last Saturday. > We started the memory alignment procedure by looking at the > STROBE FIELD 0 signal and the amplifier output on pin E1 of the sense > amplifier. The STROBE signal was very late compared to Figure 5-6 in > the 8/L Maintenance Manual. We ran a short JMP loop and adjusted the > relationship with the trimpot on the M360 delay module. When we halted the > processor and tried a examine core we only got just zeros. > > We adjusted the M360 delay back where it was and single step worked > again. We found that the strobe-to-one-bit relationship was almost > 100ns earlier when in single-step than it was with the processor > running. We checked the whole timing path from MEM START at pin N2 of > the M113 in slot C03, through all of the gates, delays, and > flip-flops, and found no timing difference between single-step and > running. Right now it looks like there is a 100ns delay difference > between the READ(1) signal that turns on the current in the core and > the bit signal showing up on the E1 pin of the sense amplifier when in > the single-step and running. > > Is this normal behavior? > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 09:55:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 07:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <201207040419.q644Jj81090406@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <201207040419.q644Jj81090406@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20120704074100.B90667@shell.lmi.net> > First consumer machine with > bit-mapped-only video (no text mode)? Not the first one with bit-mapped video. Perhaps the first one to NOT give you a test mode. THAT is an invention? > First consumer machine that > 100% shipped with a mouse? Not the first one to have a mouse available. Perhaps the first one that could not be purchased without the bundled mouse. THAT is an invention? > First consumer machine with 3.5" drive Not the first one to have a 3.5" drive And the Seequa Chameleon would be the the first to . . . NOT necessarily Apple, and all such impediments can be circumvented: Which is the first personal computer to use "tamper-proof" fasteners to block user access to the insides? (extra points for having used Velcro on a previous model!) Which is the first personal computer to not let you have, nor add, a floppy drive? Which is the first personal computer to attempt to eliminate third party floppy drives? Which is the first personal computer with a CRT, but not having a video output? Which is the first personal computer to not let you install any software not purchased through the manufacturer? Are THOSE "inventions"? From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Jul 4 09:57:49 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 15:57:49 +0100 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, dwight elvey wrote: >> I'm trying to think of anything that Steve Jobs invented. > > Steve Jobs! Matt Damon! > He had a remarkable talent for coming up with the right TIMING for > introducing the next iteration of existing products. > He was extraordinarily skilful at marketing, and creating intense brand > loyalty. > > iPod > iPhone > iPad > were all versions of existing products that had not previously been > very successful in the market. He was an "inspirational bully"... I worked for one of those once, not fun. Not at all. You find yourself working 24x7 for someone who treats you like crap. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better? Amelia: Yeah. Doctor: Everything's going to be fine. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 09:59:50 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 07:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3CE30.6030408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120704075647.I90667@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, David Griffith wrote: > Almost perfect! I wonder if a treatment of vinyl dye (as suggested > earlier) will darken to blue ones to the correct shade. What bugs me most > about this repair job is that I had a baggie full of them a couple weeks > ago and now I can't find them anywhere. Purchase a large quantity. Go to put them away for later. No matter how thoroughly you had previously searched, that storage location will be unavailable due to being filled with the large baggie full of them that you already have. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 10:02:00 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 08:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120704080024.J90667@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > If the Ipad keeps taking off, and the Microsoft Slate with it, then > they will have succeeded in doing unimaginable damage to the open > source community. > We will tell you what apps you can and cannot write. We will publish > them for you, period. > Disgusting. I don't want a device I can't write what I want for. Jobs did not INVENT the "CLOSED system". He is merely perfecting it, and sealing off any remaining openings. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Jul 4 10:27:09 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 16:27:09 +0100 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704080024.J90667@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704080024.J90667@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Jobs did not INVENT the "CLOSED system". He is merely > perfecting it, and sealing off any remaining openings. I agree. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better? Amelia: Yeah. Doctor: Everything's going to be fine. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 10:33:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 08:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704121232.Horde.q6p6GaQd9PdP9BcQnLj10LA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <20120704121232.Horde.q6p6GaQd9PdP9BcQnLj10LA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20120704081944.Q90667@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > I just wanted to say.... I won't consider this as a big problem we > realy need to start worrying about education! Why? The shool will > always(!) simplify things to teach them to children. This has beend > the case and always was the case. If you talk to higher educated > people what they think is right what is being teached from their area > of knownledge in the school (e.g. chemistry). you'll always here "this > is wrong what they teach!" but this is the case. Children should not > care about every detail for everything. This is what later education > is for where you specialise for an area... everything before is "a > little bit true, but not the full truth". I can give you examples of > how children are being teached on how sulfuric acid is being produced > but what they are being teached will _never_ work.... you can't load > them with 1000000 details of 100000 areas of science. Besides, worker drones don't need to know history, much less ACCURATE history, only whether we are currently at war with Eurasia, Eastasia, or Oceania, along with examples of the atrocities committed by whichever one(s) we are currently at war with. And, besides those inducted into the anointed corporate computer programming priesthood, the only computer science that the public needs to know is how to use the "APPS" for the digital sweatshop. Teaching that Jobs invented the computer simplifies the task of training "good citizens". Just let MiniTrue write the textbooks that are best for us. MiniTrue RecDep can rectify the historical records. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Room 101 Miniluv From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Jul 4 10:39:23 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 10:39:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Modern computers with docs (was: Re: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Mark Tapley wrote: > > Imbedded systems, "educational" systems, etc. could maybe develop a > market size that would make it possible to produce, but the cost of providing > good service info (much more to produce good "educational" material to > accompany the system if that's the route you are going) ... ouch. > > It looks to me like the market has fragmented into > > a) N8VEM class systems - > *truly* niche market, open architecture but tiny numbers sold > b) Rpi class systems - > incomplete docs and SMI/unserviceable construction, moderate numbers > sold > c) Commodity boxes, iPad/ThinkBook/etc - > serviceable only with specialized tools or not at all, the vast > majority of the market. > d) Server boxes > more serviceable, but at the fast, board-swap-to-get-it-running > level. Expensive. Small fraction of market. > > Anyone have ideas on how to break out of those categories? I think > whatever it is will need a powerful enough CPU to run a *big* fraction of > modern hardware (recent Linux -> web browser + self-hosted development > environment?), be easy enough to assemble to require minimal tool > acquisition, and use commodity peripherals (flash card storage, HDMI output, > bluetooth or USB KB/mouse, microphone?). Complexity is already an issue at > that point; trying to "educate" a new user across that whole array of > components is pretty daunting. There are also embedded/industrial computers. My experience with some of the vendors in this market while non-typical, is that they will share board-level prints and docs when I've needed them (such as while modifying and adapting existing designs to specific applications) but such documentation still isn't normally available. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 4 11:04:37 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 09:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Powermac G5 won't start In-Reply-To: <8B8DC0B8-76DB-436F-ABCC-94FB183B8CFD@rachors.com> from George Rachor at "Jul 4, 12 06:06:42 am" Message-ID: <201207041604.q64G4bw415138894@floodgap.com> > Cameron > The machine has 2.. Shall I try removing one at a time? Which specific model of G5 is this? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Either he's dead, or my watch has stopped. -- Groucho Marx ----------------- From codeblue at inbox.lv Thu Jul 5 03:08:27 2012 From: codeblue at inbox.lv (Code Blue) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 08:08:27 +0000 Subject: Modern computers with docs (was: Re: PM 6100/60, was: Powermac...) In-Reply-To: <24DBA9D6-3C88-4ECB-95A9-E9292762A336@hack.net> References: <20120703170035.GA30180@inbox.lv> <24DBA9D6-3C88-4ECB-95A9-E9292762A336@hack.net> Message-ID: <20120705080827.GA5529@inbox.lv> > > I am going to install OpenBSD There, I did it. The install is really pretty much a standard OpenBSD install except the bootblocks failed to install on both 5.1 and the 5.2 snapshot. I really have no idea why that happened but I got around it using the busy box shell that comes with the PMON BIOS (at least I think it comes with it although now I can't access it again) and installed the bootblocks manually. I had to reorganize the partitions to allocate space for OpenBSD and I wiped out the preinstalled Linux. I will eventually dual boot OpenBSD and some Linux distro but at least now OpenBSD is installed. There is only one console on this version of OpenBSD (can't switch to an alternate) so I will set up X asap. I was planning to go totally console mode but with only one console it's not very usable. Another reason I'll try X is the console is horribly slow. I'm not sure if that's the framebuffer code or if there's something else going on. Emacs loads a screenfull of data instantly but reading a man page or listing a directory is painful. Hopefully X fixes that. -- _ ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) Powered by Lemote Fuloong against HTML e-mail X MIPS and OpenBSD and proprietary / \ Mutt.org attachments Code Blue or Go Home! From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 11:51:25 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 12:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: References: <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <20120628105033.GA23275@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <201206281222.IAA00280@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <128019602277963373@unknownmsgid> <87F725A5-8FA9-4595-93EB-00882747A5B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Steven Hirsch wrote: > FYI: At about 1:30pm EST I received a notice from RS/Newark that they were > accepting orders for the RPi in the US. Within 1/2 hour their server was > down. And, no, I didn't make it. Got as far as setting up the shopping > basket and went bye, bye. > > Methinks they may have received a lot of responses. The site returned to life a bit later in the day and I was able to successfully order (2) units. $35 each, plus state sales tax and about $6 shipping. Not too bad. Delivery schedule is "late August", but I'm not holding my breath. Steve -- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jul 4 13:28:10 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 11:28:10 -0700 Subject: IBM (Sony) 6091 19 monitor In-Reply-To: <1341361619.73312.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1341361619.73312.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Jul 3, at 5:26 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I figured I'd pay my last respects before these got chucked. Could > be in better shape cosmetically (but, uh, everything about a > monitor is cosmetic, no?), but they were working the last time I > turned them on. I used to get big bucks for these bad boys. But > their day has long come and gone :(. Damned LCDs! I'm just in the process of disposing of two of them (apple- and sun- badged 19" sonys) (scavenging a few components like high-voltage transistors before they go), along with a few other CRTs/monitors to get rid of. The demise of CRTs is not something I'm crying over, although there is a nostalgia factor to green and amber monochrome phosphor. I suppose someday there will be for a color CRT too, but I'm not there yet. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 4 13:42:53 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 12:42:53 -0600 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: In article , John Many Jars writes: > If the Ipad keeps taking off, and the Microsoft Slate with it, [...] You can deploy any app you want to the Windows 8 tablets, you are only limited to abide by MS policies if you want your app sold through their store. You can get apps onto a Windows 8 tablet without having to go through the MS app store. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jul 4 13:44:00 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 11:44:00 -0700 Subject: RCA/COSMAC 1802 assemblers in the 70's Message-ID: <25B92982-E152-43F8-AFDC-DCB8A7614AB1@cs.ubc.ca> Does anyone recall anything about the availability of (cross-) assemblers for 1802 development back in their day? Not that I need to find an original, I'm disassembling and 'reverse- sourcing' the firmware (~700 bytes) for some equipment from 1977 with an embedded 1802, and just idly assessing what the likelihood is that it was produced with a machine assembler vs. hand-assembled. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 13:52:23 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 20:52:23 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th Message-ID: Hi Guys, Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week or two. Pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ A quick inventory: PDP stuff: - PDP 11/44 - PDP 11/84 - 3 x RL02 - Professional 325 - Professional 350 VAX stuff: - 12 x BA213/BA440 pedestal VAX systems (MV3400, VAX 4000/200,300,500A, ...) - 3 x R400X storage pedestal - 3 x R215F storage pedestal - 47 x pizzabox VAX systems (MV3100, VAXstation 4000, Infoserver 150, ...) - 22 x pizzabox storage expansion - 4 x lunchbox VAX systems (MV/VAXserver/VAXstation 2000) - 11 x lunchbox storage expansion MIPS stuff: - DECsystem 5400 (pedestal) - 2 x Personal DECstation 5000/25 - DECstation 2100 - DECstation 5000/133 - DECstation 5000/200 Alpha stuff: - 2 x DEC3000 Miscellaneous stuff: - VAXmate PC500 w/RCD31 expansion box - 2 x HSZ40 - 18 x StorageWorks BA350 - 6 x StorageWorks BA353 - DECNIS 600 w/ DNSAN, DNSAM,W614/618,L602 - 5 x DECserver 700 - 3 x DECserver 200/MC - LANbridge 200 - Lots of DEChub stuff - Lots of manuals, cables, spare cards, spare disks, etc... I need to remind people not to send any more donations for the next few months while I sort this stuff out. I won't keep it all, so I'll probably post some messages here in the next few months to sell or give away some of it. Some of it may have to end up in the bin eventually (like storage expansion boxes with broken drives) Does anyone here have any experience with the Professional systems and the VAXmate? I believe the latter is an 8086 system, is that correct? Would the DECNIS stuff still be of use to anyone? Cheers, Camiel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jul 4 13:54:53 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 14:54:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM (Sony) 6091 19 monitor In-Reply-To: References: <1341361619.73312.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201207041854.OAA17733@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The demise of CRTs is not something I'm crying over, Me neither, in theory. But even the cheapest of CRTs could usually autosync to a video signal without putting half a character - or sometimes more - off the edge of the visible display, something I regularly find "modern" flatscreens doing. And this is when connected to peecees, too. And I have a CRT that's willing to sync to a much-too-wide video signal, just squashing it down. It doesn't look good, but it mostly works; text is legible, for example. Modern flatscreens usually display nothing, or at most an "I can't display this" box, instead of doing something sensible with such input. And CRTs could sync to a signal within a frame or two. In my experience, LCDs generally take more like a second, which makes a substantial difference when I'm trying to catch sight of something that come and goes quickly. And a CRT switching from a given signal to the same signal but with a phase glitch because the video hardware got reset typically just jumps for a few tens of milliseconds. LCDs typically do a full "resync to the signal" operation, displaying nothing for several hundred milliseconds. And don't get me started on the way LCDs insist on damaging perfectly good video signals by scaling, rather than letterboxing. I have one - ONE - flatscreen that can be told to letterbox rather than scale. (CRTs generally scaled, but the result wasn't as damaging to the result as it is on LCDs.) And even when scaling - when displaying an 1152x900 signal on a 1920x1080 CRT, it just stretched; when I tried it on an LCD, I typically wound up with something like 1/4 of the display completely off-screen, with no way to manually adjust it back on. Yes, it was a crappy LCD, but crappy CRTs got it righter than that. Or how hard a time I had getting a 1920x1080 LCD to sync to a 1920x1080 signal from my SS20. This sort of thing Just Worked on CRTs. In short, find me flatscreens with the functionality of my CRTs and then we can talk about trashing the CRTs. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 4 14:05:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 12:05:24 -0700 Subject: RCA/COSMAC 1802 assemblers in the 70's In-Reply-To: <25B92982-E152-43F8-AFDC-DCB8A7614AB1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25B92982-E152-43F8-AFDC-DCB8A7614AB1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4FF43184.31338.93D362@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jul 2012 at 11:44, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Does anyone recall anything about the availability of (cross-) > assemblers for 1802 development back in their day? > > Not that I need to find an original, I'm disassembling and 'reverse- > sourcing' the firmware (~700 bytes) for some equipment from 1977 with > an embedded 1802, and just idly assessing what the likelihood is that > it was produced with a machine assembler vs. hand-assembled. Almost all manufacturers of the early micros offered cross-assemblers (usually FORTRAN) for their products. I'd be surprised if the CDP1802 wasn't among that crowd, given its simplicity. --Chuck From codeblue at inbox.lv Wed Jul 4 14:09:54 2012 From: codeblue at inbox.lv (Code Blue) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 19:09:54 +0000 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120704190954.GA21316@inbox.lv> On Wed, Jul 04, 2012 at 08:52:23PM +0200, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > or two. Pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ Holy $%^& Batman! I'll put in my request for one of the VAX pizza boxes as soon as Dave McGuire tells me which one I should ask for! -- _ ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) Powered by Lemote Fuloong against HTML e-mail X MIPS and OpenBSD and proprietary / \ Mutt.org attachments Code Blue or Go Home! From reiche at ls-al.eu Wed Jul 4 14:14:11 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 21:14:11 +0200 Subject: RCA/COSMAC 1802 assemblers in the 70's In-Reply-To: <25B92982-E152-43F8-AFDC-DCB8A7614AB1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <25B92982-E152-43F8-AFDC-DCB8A7614AB1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201207041914.q64JEBP2026958@ls-al.eu> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Does anyone recall anything about the availability of (cross-) > assemblers for 1802 development back in their day? > > Not that I need to find an original, I'm disassembling and 'reverse- > sourcing' the firmware (~700 bytes) for some equipment from 1977 with > an embedded 1802, and just idly assessing what the likelihood is that > it was produced with a machine assembler vs. hand-assembled. > If you don't get your answer, these guys are pretty knowledgeable: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cosmacelf/ re, Sander From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 14:18:37 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:18:37 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: <20120704190954.GA21316@inbox.lv> References: <20120704190954.GA21316@inbox.lv> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 9:09 PM, Code Blue wrote: > On Wed, Jul 04, 2012 at 08:52:23PM +0200, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> >> Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old >> iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector >> moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week >> or two. Pictures at >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ > > Holy $%^& Batman! > > I'll put in my request for one of the VAX pizza boxes as soon as Dave > McGuire tells me which one I should ask for! I guess I should have mentioned that the stuff is located in the Netherlands... From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jul 4 14:28:51 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 14:28:51 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF49973.5000001@pico-systems.com> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 23:53:51 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Modern computers with docs Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > The last machines I ever saw where schematics were available to the > > end users were the VAX-11/780 and the uVAX-II. The 780 schematics > > were as thick as a phone book and 11 x 17" pages. The uVAX-II > > was a lot smaller, it was a hierarchical description, but gave a lot > > of insight on how the processor and interface chips were organized. > The 11/750 and 11/730 also had full schematics and assembly drawings on thick slabs of 11"x17" paper, accompanied by several 8.5"x11" tomes of technical descriptions. I think even DEC stopped providing that level of documentation in most cases after about 1983 or so. I remember plenty of detailed Qbus docs but I don't remember running across the uVAX-II printset. That would be interesting to review. I have a KA-630 print set, if anyone in interested. Probably it should be scanned and archived with bitsavers. It is 11x17, and about 3/8" thick. Jon From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Jul 4 14:38:34 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 21:38:34 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: <20120704190954.GA21316@inbox.lv> Message-ID: <4FF49BBA.1060703@bluewin.ch> >> Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old >> iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector >> moving to a smaller apartment). I suppose you will be moving into a bigger apartment ? Congrats on the haul, Jos From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:13:12 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 20:13:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: from "Joachim Thiemann" at Jul 3, 12 11:30:21 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > When I looked (after it was hyped i nthe press, and after I had to > > navigate past various Rpi pages to get the bits I wanted from Farnell), I > > didn't see anything to suggest that this was not the final product. > > Neither in the press nor on the sites I (briefly) looked at. > > I think the hardware is fixed and final, and has been for a while. Is it? When I looked a few days ago I found some comment about the I2S interface. Apparently there was supposed to be one on the Rpi, but current boards don't have it. I thought I read that future versions might. In which case the hardware is not non-changing. [...] > So, the foundation can still modify the firmware simply by > distributing new blobs, and I guess that for the system to be truly > open, those three blobs need to be reverse-engineered. Again, not > dissimilar to the Amiga Kickstart, IMHO. There si, I think, one big difference. The program interface (registers, etc) for the Amiga chips was pbulished. The program inteface for the GPU on the Rpi is not. That makes a big difference to revese-engineering it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:19:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 20:19:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120703141338.R64027@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 3, 12 02:23:30 pm Message-ID: > > > > I should probably be happy that they learn *something* about tech history. > On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Err, no. IMHO learnign incorrect information is worse than not learing it > > at all. > > . . . and then, when they become teachers, they promulgate that same > nonsense as confirmed fact" Oh don;t ge me started... The computing teracher I had at school was sufficiently clueless that I failed the exam (at the tiem of taking said exam I could progrom in BASIC, pascal and forth and had hand-wired my own Z80-based computer). Now I'll happily admit to not knowing all sorts of areas of computing, but this was not an advanced exam.... I also never had a signle maths or physics teacher who I regarded as clueful. Fortunately I did a rather better job of teaching myself the good bits of those subjects. > That's how we get Elisha Gray and Leif Ericson dropped from history, What I find suprising is that the books I have on telephony, going back over 100 years, don't mention them either. [...] > > Fact checking is NOT required, not encouraged, when writing a history > textbook. Curricula is finalized by the most ignorant. I once looked at a physics syllabus and my first comment was 'Well, most of the things here are downright wrong'. I don't mean things like Newtonian mechanics. We all know that's an apporximation, but it's a darn good approxiamtion for normal-sized ogjects moving at normal speeds, and I would not call it 'wrong'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:21:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 20:21:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: from "Joachim Thiemann" at Jul 3, 12 11:41:32 pm Message-ID: > There is NO PROOF that any IBM is older than 20 years. Actually, tjhere';s no proof that the world is more than, say, 10 second old. It might have been created with all of us on it, with all the memories we have, and so on. You can't _prove_ that's not the case :-) But if oyu acept the more normal view, then I've had na IBM computer for more than 20 years. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:27:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 20:27:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 3, 12 06:53:27 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl > > can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. > > First consumer machine with a 3.5" floppy (and/or no 5.25" floppy in Was it? I thoght the HP150 predated it (although I guess you could configure an HP150 with 5.25" drives). > the era of floppies being standard)? First consumer machine with > bit-mapped-only video (no text mode)? First consumer machine that What do you mean by 'consumer' here? I you mean 'sold to anyone who'd buy it' then the PERQ certain;y predates it. > 100% shipped with a mouse? > > > And yes, we've debated what the 'first PC' was many times. It depends on > > what a 'PC' is. > > Yes, we have. It's all about what criteria are selected. Of course. You need to define 'personal' and 'computer'. Do programmable calcualtors cunnt [1] for example? [1] No, not i nthe sense of incrementing a regiser :-) > > > I'll go for the HP9830, being the first all-in-one > > machine that ran a high-level language from ROM. You put it on a desk, > > plugged it into the mains and started programming. > > That certainly meets several of the typical criteria. I personally > feel that high-level-language in ROM is not a defining characteristic, The HP9830 was, I belive , the fist machine where you just bought it, plugged in itno the mains nad used it. Nothing more to buy, no stoage meadia to insert, etc. It's _one_ candidate, sure. There are plenty of others, and there;s nothign wrong with pickign one of those if you define the cretia appropriately. I think we all agree that the personal computer of today comes from a long line of machines and it's not clear which of those is thefirst personal computer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 14:46:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 20:46:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modern computers with docs In-Reply-To: <4FF3AB5C.4000600@pico-systems.com> from "Jon Elson" at Jul 3, 12 09:33:00 pm Message-ID: > > >More seriously, can you name a present-day computer where the > > >manufactuers do supply schematics, data on ASICs, and the like? > > > > Ummm, you want the transistor-level prints on a Core 2 Duo CPU? > 290 million transistors! Really, if put on paper, it ought to > fill a large room. So? Moe seriously, I would never expect that sort of data on the ICs. It's not needed to understnad or repair the machine. THings like hte program interface (registres, instructions, etc), pinouts, timing diagrams, etc. The sort of thing you find in a ful ldata sheet for an LSI device. The sort of schematics I mean are ones that show such ICs are blocks with the interconnections shown. The schematics of the TRS-80 M1 or the Apple ][ don't show the internals of the Z80 or 6502, but I still class those as the schematics of the machine. As does everyone I know. > > The last machines I ever saw where schematics were available to the > end users were the VAX-11/780 and the uVAX-II. The 780 schematics There are many later than that. For a start the 11/750 and 11/730 VAXen have printests liek that. After that, the HP150, HP150-II and Portable Plus machines (and I assume the HP110) had published Techncial manuals with full schematics. So did all the IBM PC family before the PS/2 range AFAIK all Radio Shack machines had availbel schematics/service manuals. Cetainly the CoC3 did (I bought it) and that long postdates the 11/780. I assuem the PC-sort-of-compatibles -- the 1000 series, 3000 series, did too. What about the 5000 (I think)? That was a Microchannel machine. Was there a schematici for that? In the UK, Amstrad service manuals were easy to get and were little more tha na schematic and parts list. I have them for at least oen 386SX laptop. And I think all/most Acorn machines (Archimedes, etc) had scheamtics avaialble Some of the AMiga scheamtics were printed in the user manuals. And as I said in another message tonight there was a book giving some data o nthe ASICs. Many of thos schematics did not include things like PSUs and drives, BTW. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 15:25:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:25:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704074100.B90667@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 4, 12 07:55:44 am Message-ID: > > > First consumer machine with > > bit-mapped-only video (no text mode)? > > Not the first one with bit-mapped video. > Perhaps the first one to NOT give you a test mode. THAT is an invention? The PERQ (1979) of course had only a bitmappaed mode, but they added the 'Rasterop machine' (basically a systm to put bitmapped images -- like chraxcters -- at arbitrary points on the screen) so that text would eb at least as fast as a 9600baurd terminal (it was in fact at least an oder of magnitude faster). FWIW, the UK Whitechapel MG1 had a bit-serial equivalent ot the rasterop machine which was appaeently slower than doing bit operation on the main CPU... [...] > NOT necessarily Apple, and all such impediments can be circumvented: > Which is the first personal computer to use "tamper-proof" fasteners to > block user access to the insides? (extra points for having used Velcro on > a previous model!) Tht does sound like Apple, assuming you think the plastic stuf fasteners on the Apple ][ are like Velcro and think that Torx screws are somehow difficult to remove... > Which is the first personal computer to not let you have, nor add, a > floppy drive? HP9830? It had digital cassettes and an optional hard drive (something like an RK05), but AFAIK no floppy drive ever existed for it. > Which is the first personal computer to attempt to eliminate third party > floppy drives? > Which is the first personal computer with a CRT, but not having a video > output? Manchester Mk 1? It had CRTs used for the main store, not video display :-) -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 14:46:01 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 15:46:01 -0400 Subject: Modern computers with docs In-Reply-To: <4FF445C1.6090802@bitsavers.org> References: <4FF3AB5C.4000600@pico-systems.com> <4FF445C1.6090802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/3/12 8:53 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I remember plenty of detailed Qbus docs but I don't remember running >> across the uVAX-II printset. That would be interesting to review. > > it is on bitsavers Thank you. I'll probably pull it up for general entertainment purposes when I start re-fiddling with Qbus hardware. I have a number of BA-23 systems including a uVAX-II. -ethan From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Jul 4 14:51:43 2012 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 21:51:43 +0200 Subject: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II) Message-ID: <20120704195143.219460@gmx.net> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > (...) it displys TV-rate video on an > > > internal CRT and photographs it. > > > > > > There's a colour fitler wheel (red, green, blue and a hole) so it cna > > > print a colour inamge in 3 goes. > > > > (...) > > AFAIK mine only does NTSC-rate video (OK, for the pedants, RS170 rate > video), there is certainly no itnernal framestore. (...) there's a disk > with 4 filters (one clear, maybe just a hole) and a stepper motor to > move them. There is some kind of control board, I seem to remember it's > microprocessor based,. maybe even an 8080. And not much more. I don;t > rememebr there being an internal NTSC or PAL colour decoder. So it must takes RGB component input (no decoder) and you have to feed it a "freeze frame" video signal, i.e. keep the image content static (no framestore) until the three exposures have been completed? > (...) As I mentioned, the optics is a standard, and not very > good (Soligor, I think) enlarger lese. It's essentially fixed focus > (well evetyhing is at a fixed distance, so that's OK), it's fitted to a > meatl tuve which slites into the camera body and is lcoked by a > setscrew. Presumably you can focus it if necessary when you repari the > unit. > > I also got what looks ot be a home-made bracket with it. 'Home made' > meaning not a Polaroid product, I suecpt it was made in the workshops of > the university I got this thing from. This fits in place of the Polaroid > camera. It looks like it would have held a35mm SLR + motordrive (...) OK, so making a camera adapter in a "normal" workshop is confirmed to be possible. Apart from interfacing the signals, it looks as if the most complicated part of it was somehow joining the camera body, the lens and the distance tube in a mechanically solid and light-tight fashion without messing up the distances between the components as you go. > Err, yes... I think if I was going to make this, I would start wit ha > dead electronic SLR, though. On the grounds it has interchagealbe lenses, > a motor to wind the film and solenoids to open/close the shutter. Then > remove the dead electroncis and make my own cotnrolelr. Whether I'd leave > the mirror in palce I don;t know, it might be easier to do so if the > sugger mwchanism depends on it for the corraect sequece. Seems like a very sane approach. I'll have to see what I can come up with, as I know for sure I don't have a broken SLR in my junk box... > Well, an enlarger lens is typically used to enlarge :-). What I mean is > that the distance from the front to whatever (paper in an enalrger) is > longer than the distance from the back to whatver (negative in an > enlrager). So if you put the CRT where the paper would be and the film > (in the cmaera body) where the negative should be, it'll work and > produce a reduced image of the CRT on the film. > > That sounds like waht yuu want. Ahh, I see. I had something backwards but now I can't see what it was... Thank you so far, Arno. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 14:55:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 15:55:16 -0400 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: <20120704190954.GA21316@inbox.lv> References: <20120704190954.GA21316@inbox.lv> Message-ID: <4FF49FA4.1020506@neurotica.com> On 07/04/2012 03:09 PM, Code Blue wrote: > On Wed, Jul 04, 2012 at 08:52:23PM +0200, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> >> Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old >> iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector >> moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week >> or two. Pictures at >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ > > Holy $%^& Batman! > > I'll put in my request for one of the VAX pizza boxes as soon as Dave > McGuire tells me which one I should ask for! Huh? Well. The OP wasn't specific about what models of pizza boxen were acquired, but if you can talk him out of any one of the VAXstation-4000 series, they'd do you very well. The -90 is quite fast. The -60, not so much, but it's still a good performer. They both pull very little power. Lacking that, a 3100-m76 is a decent machine, and made of SERIOUS METAL...you could drop it, park a car on it, do whatever and it just won't care. Very different from the plastic chassis that followed that model line. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 15:57:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:57:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM (Sony) 6091 19 monitor In-Reply-To: <201207041854.OAA17733@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Jul 4, 12 02:54:53 pm Message-ID: > > > The demise of CRTs is not something I'm crying over, > > Me neither, in theory. I am. I can understnad how CRT-based monitors work. I can generally fix them. They're not a PCB of unrecogniasble nad untestable BGA blobs linked to an LCD iwth transistors i nthe glass. Dome machines should, IMHO, be kept with CRT montiors. Things like the PERQs. Adn anything wit ha built-in CRT (TRS80 M3/M4, HP130, HP150, etc). The demise of CRT monitors means that spare CRTs and things like flyback transfomers are goign to be harder to get i nthe future > > But even the cheapest of CRTs could usually autosync to a video signal > without putting half a character - or sometimes more - off the edge of > the visible display, something I regularly find "modern" flatscreens > doing. And this is when connected to peecees, too. > > And I have a CRT that's willing to sync to a much-too-wide video > signal, just squashing it down. It doesn't look good, but it mostly Hmmm. SOme CRT monitors, if fed a signal with the wrong horizontal scan rate, could end up wdamaging partis in the hoizotnal output stage. I think I'd prefer 'Sorry I can't display that'. > works; text is legible, for example. Modern flatscreens usually > display nothing, or at most an "I can't display this" box, instead of > doing something sensible with such input. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 4 15:48:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:48:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: RCA/COSMAC 1802 assemblers in the 70's In-Reply-To: <25B92982-E152-43F8-AFDC-DCB8A7614AB1@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jul 4, 12 11:44:00 am Message-ID: > > Does anyone recall anything about the availability of (cross-) > assemblers for 1802 development back in their day? I am pretty sure there was an RCA 1802 development system with an assembler on paper tape. I may have said tape somewhere (bnt I know I don;t have the machine it runs on) -tony From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 15:00:15 2012 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:00:15 +0100 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 July 2012 19:52, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > or two. Pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ > wow! I take it that means you don't want my DEC books then ;) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 15:00:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 16:00:35 -0400 Subject: Modern computers with docs In-Reply-To: <20120705080827.GA5529@inbox.lv> References: <20120703170035.GA30180@inbox.lv> <24DBA9D6-3C88-4ECB-95A9-E9292762A336@hack.net> <20120705080827.GA5529@inbox.lv> Message-ID: <4FF4A0E3.1010909@neurotica.com> On 07/05/2012 04:08 AM, Code Blue wrote: > Another > reason I'll try X is the console is horribly slow. I'm not sure if > that's the framebuffer code or if there's something else going > on. Emacs loads a screenfull of data instantly but reading a man page > or listing a directory is painful. Hopefully X fixes that. It sounds like the console firmware doesn't use any hardware acceleration for scrolling. That could likely be fixed. If that is the case, then X should solve the problem straight away. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 15:02:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 16:02:45 -0400 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF4A165.7090009@neurotica.com> On 07/04/2012 02:52 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > or two. Pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ > > A quick inventory: > > PDP stuff: > - PDP 11/44 > - PDP 11/84 > - 3 x RL02 > - Professional 325 > - Professional 350 > > VAX stuff: > - 12 x BA213/BA440 pedestal VAX systems (MV3400, VAX 4000/200,300,500A, ...) > - 3 x R400X storage pedestal > - 3 x R215F storage pedestal > - 47 x pizzabox VAX systems (MV3100, VAXstation 4000, Infoserver 150, ...) > - 22 x pizzabox storage expansion > - 4 x lunchbox VAX systems (MV/VAXserver/VAXstation 2000) > - 11 x lunchbox storage expansion > > MIPS stuff: > - DECsystem 5400 (pedestal) > - 2 x Personal DECstation 5000/25 > - DECstation 2100 > - DECstation 5000/133 > - DECstation 5000/200 > > Alpha stuff: > - 2 x DEC3000 > > Miscellaneous stuff: > - VAXmate PC500 w/RCD31 expansion box > - 2 x HSZ40 > - 18 x StorageWorks BA350 > - 6 x StorageWorks BA353 > - DECNIS 600 w/ DNSAN, DNSAM,W614/618,L602 > - 5 x DECserver 700 > - 3 x DECserver 200/MC > - LANbridge 200 > - Lots of DEChub stuff > - Lots of manuals, cables, spare cards, spare disks, etc... That is an AMAZING haul. Congratulations! > I need to remind people not to send any more donations for the next > few months while I sort this stuff out. I won't keep it all, so I'll > probably post some messages here in the next few months to sell or > give away some of it. Some of it may have to end up in the bin > eventually (like storage expansion boxes with broken drives) > > Does anyone here have any experience with the Professional systems and I know the Pro series pretty well; I used to sell and service them. They are pretty well-understood amongst many people on this list. You won't have trouble getting Pro help here. > the VAXmate? I believe the latter is an 8086 system, is that correct? Yes, it's basically a PC. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 15:04:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 16:04:29 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FF4A1CD.1070202@neurotica.com> On 07/04/2012 10:39 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, dwight elvey wrote: >> I'm trying to think of anything that Steve Jobs invented. > > Steve Jobs! > >> Does anyone know of something? >> He was a great person in some respects but inventer >> he wasn't. > > He had a remarkable talent for coming up with the right TIMING for > introducing the next iteration of existing products. > He was extraordinarily skilful at marketing, and creating intense brand > loyalty. > > iPod > iPhone > iPad > were all versions of existing products that had not previously been > very successful in the market. Versions, yes...but they're pretty damn nice devices, when you come right down to it. There's much more than just marketing going on there. I am by no means an Apple fanboi either. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 15:05:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 16:05:19 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704121232.Horde.q6p6GaQd9PdP9BcQnLj10LA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <20120704121232.Horde.q6p6GaQd9PdP9BcQnLj10LA@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <4FF4A1FF.6090002@neurotica.com> On 07/04/2012 06:12 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> .. I overheard two teenage girls examining each other on tech history. >> >> Girl A : "The first PC was ....?" >> Girl B : "...the Macintosh !" >> Girl A, looking in her textbook : "Correct !" > > I just wanted to say.... I won't consider this as a big problem we realy > need to start worrying about education! Why? The shool will always(!) > simplify things to teach them to children. This has beend the case and > always was the case. If you talk to higher educated people what they > think is right what is being teached from their area of knownledge in > the school (e.g. chemistry). you'll always here "this is wrong what they > teach!" but this is the case. Children should not care about every > detail for everything. This is what later education is for where you > specialise for an area... everything before is "a little bit true, but > not the full truth". I can give you examples of how children are being > teached on how sulfuric acid is being produced but what they are being > teached will _never_ work.... you can't load them with 1000000 details > of 100000 areas of science. Sure, that makes sense. But in this case, the information wasn't just incomplete, it was DEAD WRONG. The imparted knowledge won't have to be amended later, it will have to be un-learned. That's a big difference! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Jul 4 15:48:46 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 13:48:46 -0700 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF4AC2E.7020709@mail.msu.edu> On 7/4/2012 12:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl >>> can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. >> First consumer machine with a 3.5" floppy (and/or no 5.25" floppy in > Was it? I thoght the HP150 predated it (although I guess you could > configure an HP150 with 5.25" drives). I thought the first computer to use the 3.5" drive was Sony's own, the SMC-70 (http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=362). Introduced in 1982, and though I'm not 100% sure you couldn't add on a 5.25" drive to it, it didn't come with one. The HP150 was late 1983, IIRC. - Josh >> the era of floppies being standard)? First consumer machine with >> bit-mapped-only video (no text mode)? First consumer machine that > What do you mean by 'consumer' here? I you mean 'sold to anyone who'd buy > it' then the PERQ certain;y predates it. I think the Terak may fit here, as well (1976/77). Had the ability to display text, but I think it was drawn as a bitmap (and was customizable). - Josh From wolfgang at eichberger.org Wed Jul 4 16:15:34 2012 From: wolfgang at eichberger.org (Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 23:15:34 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Holy cow. You made a decent score. Let me know if you need informations about the Professionals... Regards, Wolfgang 2012/7/4 Adrian Graham > On 4 July 2012 19:52, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > > or two. Pictures at > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ > > > > wow! I take it that means you don't want my DEC books then ;) > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > From grant at stockly.com Wed Jul 4 16:21:02 2012 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 13:21:02 -0800 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow, that's a lot of toys! I'm glad you were able to save it. On a side note, I was expecting a much bigger truck from the description. Around these parts a truck driving license is only required for the biggest on the road vehicles, like an 18 wheeler. This is a picture of my sunny day truck: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/9LpcK2X1U2XhOio5c_NeZg02SYNeF4bcqVYhbMgNj_g?feat=directlink ; ) However, every time I visit Korea I would die for one of those little Hyundai/Daewoo/Kiah crew cab forward control trucks!!! On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > or two. Pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ > > A quick inventory: > > PDP stuff: > - PDP 11/44 > - PDP 11/84 > - 3 x RL02 > - Professional 325 > - Professional 350 > > VAX stuff: > - 12 x BA213/BA440 pedestal VAX systems (MV3400, VAX 4000/200,300,500A, > ...) > - 3 x R400X storage pedestal > - 3 x R215F storage pedestal > - 47 x pizzabox VAX systems (MV3100, VAXstation 4000, Infoserver 150, ...) > - 22 x pizzabox storage expansion > - 4 x lunchbox VAX systems (MV/VAXserver/VAXstation 2000) > - 11 x lunchbox storage expansion > > MIPS stuff: > - DECsystem 5400 (pedestal) > - 2 x Personal DECstation 5000/25 > - DECstation 2100 > - DECstation 5000/133 > - DECstation 5000/200 > > Alpha stuff: > - 2 x DEC3000 > > Miscellaneous stuff: > - VAXmate PC500 w/RCD31 expansion box > - 2 x HSZ40 > - 18 x StorageWorks BA350 > - 6 x StorageWorks BA353 > - DECNIS 600 w/ DNSAN, DNSAM,W614/618,L602 > - 5 x DECserver 700 > - 3 x DECserver 200/MC > - LANbridge 200 > - Lots of DEChub stuff > - Lots of manuals, cables, spare cards, spare disks, etc... > > I need to remind people not to send any more donations for the next > few months while I sort this stuff out. I won't keep it all, so I'll > probably post some messages here in the next few months to sell or > give away some of it. Some of it may have to end up in the bin > eventually (like storage expansion boxes with broken drives) > > Does anyone here have any experience with the Professional systems and > the VAXmate? I believe the latter is an 8086 system, is that correct? > Would the DECNIS stuff still be of use to anyone? > > Cheers, > > Camiel > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 16:41:48 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 17:41:48 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> First consumer machine with a 3.5" floppy (and/or no 5.25" floppy in... > > Was it? I thoght the HP150 predated it (although I guess you could > configure an HP150 with 5.25" drives). The HP150 had 3.5" drives first (by two months, I understand), but if you can put 5.25" floppies on it, then it's disqualified from this exact and precise definition of "first". >> the era of floppies being standard)? First consumer machine with >> bit-mapped-only video (no text mode)? First consumer machine that > > What do you mean by 'consumer' here? I you mean 'sold to anyone who'd buy > it' then the PERQ certain;y predates it. The term "consumer" is more equivalent to "mass marketed" than to "customer". DEC sold minicomputers to "anyone who'd buy them" but "consumers" didn't fall into the ranks of the DEC new-purchase customers until practically the days of the Rainbow (yes lots of people like the ones on this list, including several actual members of this list, owned their own DEC equipment, but very, very few purchased that same equipment new, at new prices for personal, not professional, use). >> 100% shipped with a mouse? >> >> > And yes, we've debated what the 'first PC' was many times. It depends on >> > what a 'PC' is. >> >> Yes, we have. It's all about what criteria are selected. > > Of course. You need to define 'personal' and 'computer'. Two terms that are easy to define to 80% accuracy, but very difficult when used to split hairs of the type "machine X is/is not a personal computer". > Do programmable > calcualtors cunnt [1] for example? > > [1] No, not i nthe sense of incrementing a regiser :-) I would say that if a particular device is considered to be a calculator, programmable or not, it's not eligible for moniker "personal computer". A computer that can't calculate isn't much of a computer, and likewise a calculator that can't "compute" is just a calculator. IMO, the difference is intended use and especially the UI. Calculators have numeric keypads and mathematical function keys, and if they have alpha keys, those are often a secondary feature. Computers tend towards toggle switches, simple keypads (0-F plus load, run, etc), or full typewriter-style alphanumeric keyboards with symbols commonly used when writing human languages, not just mathematical expressions. >> > I'll go for the HP9830, being the first all-in-one >> > machine that ran a high-level language from ROM.,, >> >> That certainly meets several of the typical criteria. I personally >> feel that high-level-language in ROM is not a defining characteristic, > > The HP9830 was, I belive , the fist machine where you just bought it, > plugged in itno the mains nad used it. Nothing more to buy, no stoage > meadia to insert, etc. An advanced machine for 1972, clearly. > It's _one_ candidate, sure. There are plenty of others, and there;s > nothign wrong with pickign one of those if you define the cretia > appropriately. I think we all agree that the personal computer of today > comes from a long line of machines and it's not clear which of those is > thefirst personal computer. Right. Just because a different machine requires multiple cabinets or load media, or only interfaces to the user via lights and switches doesn't make it less of a computer, just different, and probably for a different type of user/customer. It's much easier to define 10 characteristics of "personal computing" and give examples of what may be the first appearance of said characteristic than to nominate "a" specific "first persona compute". I remember there was even an argument that the IBM 5150 was the first personal computer specifically because it was call the the "IBM Personal Computer" and was the first to use the term. That's clearly easy to disprove (Apple wasn't even the first, but they use "personal computer" or "personal computing" in their 1977 ads for the Apple II). I think it was Fred that said that "it must have been the author's first computer" - that certainly colors the common perception of "first" - baby duck syndrome - a topic that makes the rounds here frequently. My first 8-bitter was an PET, my second was an Elf, my first 16-bitter was a PDP-11 and so on... they are still the machines that evoke the most pleasant memories for me. There was a lot of different hardware made in the 1960s and 1970s, but the ones I saw first were certainly the ones I like "best". A corollary to the "first" discussion would be "first at what?" and/or "first and why?" Those are easier to find counter examples to than just an endless circular discussion of just "first". -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 16:45:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 17:45:58 -0400 Subject: trucks, was Re: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF4B996.4020003@neurotica.com> On 07/04/2012 05:21 PM, Grant Stockly wrote: > This is a picture of my sunny day truck: > > https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/9LpcK2X1U2XhOio5c_NeZg02SYNeF4bcqVYhbMgNj_g?feat=directlink > > ; ) > > However, every time I visit Korea I would die for one of those little > Hyundai/Daewoo/Kiah crew cab forward control trucks!!! Wow, nice! I had a Unimog 404S (radio box version) for several years. I sold it when I fell on hard times. I miss it; it was lots of fun, even though I am by no means the "outsoorsy" type. -Dave. -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jul 4 16:50:58 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 22:50:58 +0100 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF22E2D.9000207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <751E5ED1D10B4BDE9841848A9C7CEC00@ANTONIOPC> Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] wrote: > I work all day, every day, with network protocols and > binary file formats. On every platform I work on, and indeed every > platform I've *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and > unsigned int has been 32. That includes the 8-bitters as > well. The idea is good, but the syntactic sugar of excessive > typedefs where they just aren't needed (and portability to > 95% of architectures isn't impacted) is just pointless > overcomplexification. I expect that every platform I've been on "unsigned int" has been 32-bits too, but uint32_t is pretty intention-revealing: it's not just a random integer, it's unsigned and intended to be 32 bits (not just "it happens to be"). Similarly uint16_t and uint8_t. (Did gcc ever make it to the PDP-10? Anyone know what unsigned int and unsigned short might be there?) Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 16:53:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 17:53:48 -0400 Subject: jailbreaking, was Re: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <71F91E39-6948-4D65-B01C-823958370D2E@gmail.com> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> <71F91E39-6948-4D65-B01C-823958370D2E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FF4BB6C.1070501@neurotica.com> On 07/04/2012 05:45 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > You can always opt to target the Jailbreak market. Apple don't seem > to care a whole lot about jailbreaking, except for explicitly not > providing support. Ah, no, that's not my view at least. Every single release of iOS closes the last-exploited jailbreak hole. They do this very diligently for every release. Sometimes I'm quite certain that it has been the only reason for a particular release. They very much do NOT want jailbroken devices out there...but the US courts have ruled that jailbreaking is not illegal, a ruling Apple was surely none to happy about! > The key issue here is whether "alternative" computing will be > actively shut out or not. The danger lies in extending the "walled > garden" approach to the world at large, eg. denying open systems > access to the internet. I find issues like net neutrality, for this > reason and others, far mor eimportant than manufacturers offering > closed systems. I agree 100%. But starting up private connections between systems is how the Internet would recover from such gov't buffoonery. Either as a VPN or as a completely separate, parallel network. That would have the side benefit of weeding out all of the morons and profiteering suits. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 17:01:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 18:01:06 -0400 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <751E5ED1D10B4BDE9841848A9C7CEC00@ANTONIOPC> References: <751E5ED1D10B4BDE9841848A9C7CEC00@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4FF4BD22.4030004@neurotica.com> On 07/04/2012 05:50 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] wrote: >> I work all day, every day, with network protocols and >> binary file formats. On every platform I work on, and indeed every >> platform I've *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and >> unsigned int has been 32. That includes the 8-bitters as >> well. The idea is good, but the syntactic sugar of excessive >> typedefs where they just aren't needed (and portability to >> 95% of architectures isn't impacted) is just pointless >> overcomplexification. > > I expect that every platform I've been on "unsigned int" has been > 32-bits too, > but uint32_t is pretty intention-revealing: it's not just a random > integer, it's > unsigned and intended to be 32 bits (not just "it happens to be"). > Similarly > uint16_t and uint8_t. Very true; and if K&R had originally specified C's native data types to explicitly include their size, I'd have no problem with it. My issue is that I started with C long before these typedefs came into being, and I just don't like 'em. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jul 4 17:01:18 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 15:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Does anyone here have any experience with the Professional systems and > the VAXmate? I believe the latter is an 8086 system, is that correct? > Would the DECNIS stuff still be of use to anyone? I sold some install disks for MS Windows for the VAXmate aout a year ago. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 4 16:57:33 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 22:57:33 +0100 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <201207040419.q644Jj81090406@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <201207040419.q644Jj81090406@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4FF4BC4D.3080503@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/07/2012 05:19, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> First consumer machine with a 3.5" floppy (and/or no 5.25" floppy in >> the era of floppies being standard)? > > The HP 150 came out two months earlier. ACT Apricot precedes even that, though not by much. The Wikipedia article says it was launched in September 1983 but I remember them from much earlier in the year (I worked for an ACT distributor). They had a built-in 3.5" drive (315K formatted, single-sided 600rpm) and there was no 5.25" option. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 17:18:15 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 15:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120704151254.F2587@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > That's how we get Elisha Gray and Leif Ericson dropped from history, > What I find suprising is that the books I have on telephony, going back > over 100 years, don't mention them either. Well, Leif Eric[k?]son wasn't involved in telephony as far as I know. Or, if he was, he went straight to wireless, and didn't leave any copper wire behind. He went back and forth between Europe and America, and started a colony in Newfoundland? 500 years before Columbus. I think that his cargo of timber provides some evidence that he wasn't imagining having found some land on his first voyage. From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jul 4 17:18:36 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 23:18:36 +0100 Subject: Modern computers with docs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ethan Dicks [ethan.dicks at gmail.com] wrote: > The 11/750 and 11/730 also had full schematics and assembly > drawings on thick slabs of 11"x17" paper, accompanied by > several 8.5"x11" tomes of technical descriptions. I think > even DEC stopped providing that level of documentation in > most cases after about 1983 or so. Indeed. In the beginning that sort of data was expected. As time went on the industry moved to a model where was a "user" manual and a "technical" manual (under various names). DEC eventually realised that the cost of producing the "technical" manual was never recouped by sales of said manual. They didn't think that they could up the price enough to recoup the costs (since upping the price would decrease sales ... vicious circle), so they stopped producing the manuals in many cases. Internally you could get hold of specifications and such like, but not the professionally produced manuals. In some cases there were special circumstances and a technical manual was produced or was cheap to produce from some documentation that had to be provided anyway (required by big government contract or what not). But in most cases detailed docs stopped existing. These days the most you are likely to get are detailed datasheets (if you buy enough parts and maybe sign an NDA). If you buy enough motherboards (or have bought enough in the past) you might be able to get a schematic. As a normal end-user, however, you simply could not afford the price they'd ask. Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jul 4 17:23:54 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 23:23:54 +0100 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: <4FF4A165.7090009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <22B2E2C2010E4B2986F9DDB3B9E1264C@ANTONIOPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >> Miscellaneous stuff: >> - VAXmate PC500 w/RCD31 expansion box >> - 2 x HSZ40 >> - 18 x StorageWorks BA350 >> - 6 x StorageWorks BA353 >> - DECNIS 600 w/ DNSAN, DNSAM,W614/618,L602 >> - 5 x DECserver 700 >> - 3 x DECserver 200/MC >> - LANbridge 200 >> - Lots of DEChub stuff >> - Lots of manuals, cables, spare cards, spare disks, etc... Cool. I recognised the DECnis before I even read the listing. I never held on to a 600 (too big ...) when I left the development group, but I did hang on to the smaller DECnis 500. Some DEChub gear too. A very nice haul. Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 17:24:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 15:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120704152035.L2587@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Not the first one with bit-mapped video. > > Perhaps the first one to NOT give you a test mode. THAT is an invention? ^^^^ sorry! "TEXT" > > NOT necessarily Apple, and all such impediments can be circumvented: > > Which is the first personal computer to use "tamper-proof" fasteners to > > block user access to the insides? (extra points for having used Velcro on > > a previous model!) > Tht does sound like Apple, assuming you think the plastic stuf fasteners > on the Apple ][ are like Velcro and think that Torx screws are somehow > difficult to remove... I DID put "tamper-proof" in the obligatory quotation marks. The 5150 did predate the Mac, and used the "tamper-proof" torx on the power supply. That did necessitate an excursion to another room. > Manchester Mk 1? It had CRTs used for the main store, not video display :-) Wow! like to see that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 4 17:27:14 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 16:27:14 -0600 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704151254.F2587@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120704151254.F2587@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FF4C342.4070001@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/4/2012 4:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>> That's how we get Elisha Gray and Leif Ericson dropped from history, >> What I find suprising is that the books I have on telephony, going back >> over 100 years, don't mention them either. > > Well, Leif Eric[k?]son wasn't involved in telephony as far as I know. Or, > if he was, he went straight to wireless, and didn't leave any copper wire > behind. He went back and forth between Europe and America, and started a > colony in Newfoundland? 500 years before Columbus. > > I think that his cargo of timber provides some evidence that he wasn't > imagining having found some land on his first voyage. The first telephone pole? > > > > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jul 4 17:31:44 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 18:31:44 -0400 Subject: IMSAI switch paddle replacements In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3CE30.6030408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <029101cd5a34$cab8f290$602ad7b0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> David Griffith wrote: > Almost perfect! I wonder if a treatment of vinyl dye (as suggested > earlier) will darken to blue ones to the correct shade. What bugs me > most about this repair job is that I had a baggie full of them a couple > weeks ago and now I can't find them anywhere. Once the job is done, you will find them. Bill S. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 17:35:36 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 23:35:36 +0100 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF4BD22.4030004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <97A2DB1717C3400C9FAF791675B0C130@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 04 July 2012 23:01 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, > > > On 07/04/2012 05:50 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] wrote: > >> I work all day, every day, with network protocols and > binary file > >> formats. On every platform I work on, and indeed every > platform I've > >> *ever* worked on, unsigned short has been 16 bits, and > unsigned int > >> has been 32. That includes the 8-bitters as well. The > idea is good, > >> but the syntactic sugar of excessive typedefs where they > just aren't > >> needed (and portability to 95% of architectures isn't impacted) is > >> just pointless overcomplexification. > > > > I expect that every platform I've been on "unsigned int" has been > > 32-bits too, but uint32_t is pretty intention-revealing: > it's not just > > a random integer, it's > > unsigned and intended to be 32 bits (not just "it happens to be"). > > Similarly > > uint16_t and uint8_t. > > Very true; and if K&R had originally specified C's native > data types to explicitly include their size, I'd have no > problem with it. My issue is that I started with C long > before these typedefs came into being, and I just don't like 'em. ;) > Yes, but they started with "B" where the only types was a machine word and you had to do subroutine calls to unpack characters, perform floating point arithmetic, etc. then you probably don't want to be to rigid on your types. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_(programming_language) > -Dave > > -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 4 17:50:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 15:50:47 -0700 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF4BC4D.3080503@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch>, <201207040419.q644Jj81090406@billy.ezwind.net>, <4FF4BC4D.3080503@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4FF46657.12943.1622C84@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jul 2012 at 22:57, Pete Turnbull wrote: > ACT Apricot precedes even that, though not by much. The Wikipedia > article says it was launched in September 1983 but I remember them > from much earlier in the year (I worked for an ACT distributor). They > had a built-in 3.5" drive (315K formatted, single-sided 600rpm) and > there was no 5.25" option. Doesn't the Sony SMC70 have the first 3.5" floppy distinction? (1982, IIRC). Or perhaps the Preis portable (same year). --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 17:59:31 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 15:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120704153002.H2587@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's much easier to define 10 characteristics of "personal computing" > and give examples of what may be the first appearance of said > characteristic than to nominate "a" specific "first persona compute". > I remember there was even an argument that the IBM 5150 was the first > personal computer specifically because it was call the the "IBM > Personal Computer" and was the first to use the term. That's clearly > easy to disprove (Apple wasn't even the first, but they use "personal > computer" or "personal computing" in their 1977 ads for the Apple II). 32 years ago, there was a computer store down the street, named "Personal Computers". They went belly-up well before the 5150 was announced (August 1981) > I think it was Fred that said that "it must have been the author's > first computer" - that certainly colors the common perception of > "first" - baby duck syndrome - a topic that makes the rounds here > frequently. My first 8-bitter was an PET, my second was an Elf, my > first 16-bitter was a PDP-11 and so on... they are still the machines > that evoke the most pleasant memories for me. There was a lot of > different hardware made in the 1960s and 1970s, but the ones I saw > first were certainly the ones I like "best". To be fair, many people, even authors!, will acknowledge one generation before the first that they bought. People who first bought PC may acknowledge CP/M, people who first bought Mac may acknowledge PC, etc. 35 years ago, I was pricing personal computers, but I couldn't justify the cost. So, to ME, the first ones were S100 with CP/M Then the TRS80/Pet/Apple][ machines came out. I maintain that those three were TIED for their relative timing. Different choices of measurement (first announced, first demo'd, first shipped, first in a store that you could carry home, etc.) can be used to give any of those three an edge over the other 2. It is so easy to place any of the three ahead of the other two, but by such small amounts, that I insist that they are TIED. I bought TRS80 (for $400 without the [usually bundled] monitor and cassette - had plenty already). Apple or Pet would have cost me more. To other people, such as those who bought machines with RAM, drives, monitor, etc. bundled, the TRS80 might NOT have seemed cheaper. At the college, in 1983, we bought 5150s for $1280? plus a CGA and an FDC card, and bought our monitors, RAM, and drives elsewhere, for a total cost of under $2000. The college admins came up with a "faantastic deal" for complete machine for $2800. Fortunately, our department head had been with the district for long enough that he could tell them to F off. > A corollary to the "first" discussion would be "first at what?" and/or > "first and why?" Those are easier to find counter examples to than > just an endless circular discussion of just "first". For example, "First portable" is generally assigned to Osborne. But, the 5100 is clearly earlier. So is the Antikythera, but y'all probably will reject it. However, The Elcompco model-V (CP/M machine with 5" monitor built into a Halliburton briefcase) was announced, demo'd ("demonstrated", not "demolished") and SOLD (5 of them) by Joe Garner at my booth at the West Coast Computer Faire 6 hours before Adam made HIS announcement. He had come over and shaken my hand, but that didn't stop his "first" claims. It was sad to hear of his passing. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 4 18:30:19 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 00:30:19 +0100 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF46657.12943.1622C84@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch>, <201207040419.q644Jj81090406@billy.ezwind.net>, <4FF4BC4D.3080503@dunnington.plus.com> <4FF46657.12943.1622C84@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF4D20B.9080004@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/07/2012 23:50, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Jul 2012 at 22:57, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> ACT Apricot precedes even that, though not by much. The Wikipedia >> article says it was launched in September 1983 but I remember them >> from much earlier in the year (I worked for an ACT distributor). They >> had a built-in 3.5" drive (315K formatted, single-sided 600rpm) and >> there was no 5.25" option. > > Doesn't the Sony SMC70 have the first 3.5" floppy distinction? > (1982, IIRC). Or perhaps the Preis portable (same year). Could be, but that also had other drive options. The Apricot PC is reputedly the first complete machine with only 3.5". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 4 18:53:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 16:53:15 -0700 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF4D20B.9080004@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch>, <4FF46657.12943.1622C84@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF4D20B.9080004@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4FF474FB.16416.19B5D43@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jul 2012 at 0:30, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Could be, but that also had other drive options. The Apricot PC is > reputedly the first complete machine with only 3.5". Are you certain? I've seen the SMC70 advertised only with 3.5": http://ahm.ath.cx/smc70/ Where would you even put another drive? Or do you mean the Preis? I thought I was the only living breathing human that had ever seen a portable Preis. (I still have the BIOS listing). --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jul 4 19:24:50 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 20:24:50 -0400 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/07/12 3:11 AM, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 12:14 AM > Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to > work... > > >> On 03/07/12 11:16 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> >>> >> >> Steve Jobs was a visionary in product design, management and >> marketing. Nobody else had the vision that could save that company. >> (Anyone who remembers Apple from 1990-2011 can vouch for this.) >> >> >> --Toby > > Visionary in product design, management, and marketing?.. you must have > never heard of NEXT computer. I own a couple. Were you actually around in the '80s? --T > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 4 20:31:22 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 18:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> > > Visionary in product design, management, and marketing?.. you must have > > never heard of NEXT computer. On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > I own a couple. Were you actually around in the '80s? I hung out in the wrong circles! I played with a pre-release Lisa (being used to develp Berkeley SmallTalk); I never touched on after that. I played with a pre-release NeXT; I never touched one after that. I never touched an Apple///, although I gave my nephew a ][+ with a /// monitor on it. Based on those two machines, it was obvious that Jobs wanted closed systems. Q: was he color-blind? (but otherwise good visual acuity) It seemed as though he was not very enthusiastic about adding color to the screen! Hey! I wonder if Apple was first to have a personal computer available in case color "Raspberry"? If THAT is one of the requirements for "first personal computer", . . . What were the color names for the iMac? (the ADM3a look-alike) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 20:38:11 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 18:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM (Sony) 6091 19 monitor In-Reply-To: References: <1341361619.73312.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1341452291.91984.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Brent Hilpert On 2012 Jul 3, at 5:26 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I figured I'd pay my last respects before these got chucked. Could be in better shape cosmetically (but, uh, everything about a monitor is cosmetic, no?), but they were working the last time I turned them on. I used to get big bucks for these bad boys. But their day has long come and gone :(. Damned LCDs! I'm just in the process of disposing of two of them (apple- and sun-badged 19" sonys) (scavenging a few? components like high-voltage transistors before they go), along with a few other CRTs/monitors to get rid of. C: Not all Sony GDM's were created equal. The IBM badged units I have were superior to the rest. Believe me. The demise of CRTs is not something I'm crying over, although there is a nostalgia factor to green and amber monochrome phosphor. I suppose someday there will be for a color CRT too, but I'm not? there yet. C: So why cry over the demise of anything??? I still have my (coverless, otherwise nearly complete) Cheap VGA Book, which was ridiculously named. It described how to utilize large crt workstation monitors, although I personally was unsuccessful at finding anything under 48khz, and even those were rare. Never found a 32-36khz monitor. Thems were the things to have back in the day. If I walked into thrift show or a swap meet and saw one (also a pitifully rare occurrence), I'd nearly swoon. ?Everyone I know wanted a big monitor. 2000$ for a multisync was unjustifiable by everyone but businesses and graphic professionals. I'm trying to fenagle a deal w/mom so I don't have to throw these out. Stick em in the old shed or something. ?I cry over the demise of the big beautiful black and white monitor myself. The first I ever obtained was w/a used Mac II. Can't remember the name. Noticeable screen burn, but still sharp as a tack! From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jul 4 20:46:30 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <751E5ED1D10B4BDE9841848A9C7CEC00@ANTONIOPC> References: <751E5ED1D10B4BDE9841848A9C7CEC00@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <201207050146.VAA01536@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > (Did gcc ever make it to the PDP-10? Anyone know what unsigned int > and unsigned short might be there?) I don't know whether there has been any C implementation (gcc or not) for the PDP-10. I'd expect to see 9-bit char, 18-bit short, and 36-bit int. long could be 36 or 72; I could argue for either. I think a good case could be made that short and int should each be 36 bits, but I'm not sure whether I agree with it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 20:48:19 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 18:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF3AEA4.6060703@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <4FF3AEA4.6060703@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1341452899.35403.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Toby Thain > Girl 1: Which was the first country to guarantee individual liberty? > Girl 2: China! > Girl 3: Right! Greece maybe? --T C: The Greeks had slaves. So did we (US) in the beginning... From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 20:52:05 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 18:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin He had a remarkable talent for coming up with the right TIMING for introducing the next iteration of existing products. He was extraordinarily skilful at marketing, and creating intense brand loyalty. iPod iPhone iPad were all versions of existing products that had not previously been very successful in the market. C: A combination of yuppy love for way too expensive inferior machines and marketing made Jobs the success he was. The original Macs put him/Apple on the map in a sense. I love the Macs, don't get me wrong, but technical marvels they were ---NOT---. They were silly fun computers. For silly people who liked to have fun. I guess that makes me silly too :( From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 4 21:02:34 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 19:02:34 -0700 Subject: SPI and I2C, was Re: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <201207050146.VAA01536@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <751E5ED1D10B4BDE9841848A9C7CEC00@ANTONIOPC>, <201207050146.VAA01536@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4FF4934A.28750.211C2D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jul 2012 at 21:46, Mouse wrote: > I don't know whether there has been any C implementation (gcc or not) > for the PDP-10. I'd expect to see 9-bit char, 18-bit short, and > 36-bit int. long could be 36 or 72; I could argue for either. http://pdp10.nocrew.org/gcc/download/ --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jul 4 21:06:51 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 19:06:51 -0700 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:52 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > C: A combination of yuppy love for way too expensive inferior machines and marketing made Jobs the success he was. The original Macs put him/Apple on the map in a sense. I love the Macs, don't get me wrong, but technical marvels they were ---NOT---. They were silly fun computers. For silly people who liked to have fun. I guess that makes me silly too :( Have you actually looked at what it takes to make a modern Mac vs a PC? I can tell you that they *are* technical marvels from a number of different perspectives?manufacturing, industrial design, thermal management, etc. TTFN - Guy From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 21:25:58 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 19:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Guy Sotomayor Have you actually looked at what it takes to make a modern Mac vs a PC?? I can tell you that they *are* technical marvels from a number of different perspectives?manufacturing, industrial design, thermal management, etc. TTFN - Guy C: Who was talking about modern Macs??? I was referring to the original Macs, didn't I mention that? The Mac has come a long way, but I don't consider it a marvel nevertheless. The Mac became a *real* pc w/the inception of the Mac II. Still love those machines. But they were expensive. ?Whatever superiority there is in a modern Mac is way offset by the price. It makes ***NO SENSE*** to pay over 1000$ for a computer that will be outdated in 3 years. If you have a specific need, then go for it. But a 300$ Toshiba will get most people through those 3 years. Why spend 4x more then you have to??? Wow what a marvel. A marvelous way of draining your wallet. It's all pretentious nonsense to me. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 4 22:03:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 23:03:22 -0400 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF4067B.4070106@jwsss.com> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> <4FF3EFA2.4000503@neurotica.com> <4FF4067B.4070106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4FF503FA.506@neurotica.com> On 07/04/2012 05:01 AM, jim s wrote: > > On 7/4/2012 12:24 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Desktops (by which I assume you mean "non-tablets", and include >> "laptops") may be going out of "fashion", but they're not going away. >> Software developers, and don't underestimate how many there are, aren't >> coding on tablets. Real computers will continue to have a place for a >> long time to come. > > I think the makers of minicomputers thought this as well, from DEC down > to Computer Automation, and the whole lot of them. Once the business > model for the device shifts away I don't see a half a cup there, I see > disaster. I don't think there is a way to see a shift that leaves an > opening for something when things start to shift away from it. Sure, yes. But you've developed software. Do you really see THAT moving to tablets? Seriously? Someone mentioned gesture-based UIs also. This does not necessarily mean "tablet". I've been using gesture-based UIs for quite a while, via a (very nice) Apple trackpad, on my Linux-based desktop machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 22:30:21 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 20:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF503FA.506@neurotica.com> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> <4FF3EFA2.4000503@neurotica.com> <4FF4067B.4070106@jwsss.com> <4FF503FA.506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1341459021.20697.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> incidentally isn't this thread title awfully disrespectful From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jul 4 23:11:26 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: any interest in an IBM Displaywriter Message-ID: <1341461486.2055.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I payed 100$, and had to pick it up in Queens/Nassau. I'll take 50$ plus shipping, from 08758. It works, but there is noticeable screen burn even when off. I have some disks, and the 8" drive cabinet. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 4 23:47:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 21:47:38 -0700 Subject: any interest in an IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: <1341461486.2055.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1341461486.2055.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FF4B9FA.9317.2A8DF87@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jul 2012 at 21:11, Chris Tofu wrote: > I payed 100$, and had to pick it up in Queens/Nassau. I'll take 50$ > plus shipping, from 08758. It works, but there is noticeable screen > burn even when off. I have some disks, and the 8" drive cabinet. Great box, too bad shipping cross-country is a killer. --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Jul 5 00:16:57 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 22:16:57 -0700 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> On Jul 4, 2012, at 7:25 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > C: Who was talking about modern Macs??? I was referring to the original Macs, didn't I mention that? The Mac has come a long way, but I don't consider it a marvel nevertheless. The Mac became a *real* pc w/the inception of the Mac II. Still love those machines. But they were expensive. > Whatever superiority there is in a modern Mac is way offset by the price. It makes ***NO SENSE*** to pay over 1000$ for a computer that will be outdated in 3 years. If you have a specific need, then go for it. But a 300$ Toshiba will get most people through those 3 years. Why spend 4x more then you have to??? Wow what a marvel. A marvelous way of draining your wallet. It's all pretentious nonsense to me. Oh, not *that* argument again. *sigh*. Actually try and price an *identically* configured PC & Mac and I think you'll find that the price difference isn't so much (in quite a few cases the Mac is cheaper). Yes, there are cheap PCs. And they are little more than repackaged Intel reference designs (and they pretty much suck). Then look at the MacBook Air (which turns out to be the *least* expensive of the Mac portables). The PC manufactures can't even match Apple's price. It's so bad that the "ultra book" designation that Intel is pushing (Apple invented the category with the original MacBook Air BTW) can't be built to be price competitive with Apple unless Intel subsidizes the price. Apple designs its systems to be: 1) thin [the tolerance of components in the Z dimension is measured in microns] & not using "off the shelf" components such as LCD assemblies but rather using the case as the structure for the LCD 2) light weight [removal of plastics and using CNC milled structural aluminum which removes the need for separate structural components] 3) low acoustics (i.e. quiet) [asymmetric fan blade design & closed loop thermal management] 4) long battery life [lithium polymer batteries that are form fitted to the enclosure, which also aids 1 & 2 which allows higher battery capacity per volume and weight] There was a "race to the bottom" that most PC manufacturers fell into. Look at their profits. Then look at Apple's. The last numbers that I saw (externally available, I'd have to look it up) was that HP's profit (on average) is $50 per PC it sells. Apple's profit (on average) is $350 per Mac it sells. At profits that low, HP can't even take a service call on a system without blowing the profit on the system. Wonder why service from the various PC manufacturers is so bad? You get what you pay for. Ever wonder why that cheap PC has so much crapware on it? It's because the manufacture gets *paid* to put all of that on the PC. That's the only way that they're actually making any money at all. Because of Apple's profits, it has the ability to really engineer the Mac vs what most PC manufactures do (which is take an Intel reference design and repackage) and it shows. TTFN - Guy From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 01:47:52 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 07:47:52 +0100 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <1341459021.20697.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> <4FF3EFA2.4000503@neurotica.com> <4FF4067B.4070106@jwsss.com> <4FF503FA.506@neurotica.com> <1341459021.20697.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <70C5A663-F1B4-4F4A-9C03-C596BA0A39C3@gmail.com> On 5 Jul 2012, at 04:30, Chris Tofu wrote: > incidentally isn't this thread title awfully disrespectful Given the guy's dead, yeah I think so. Doesn't give him much chance to have done anything lately. Maybe we should change it to 'What did Steve Jobs ever do for us?' :) Apple will lapse back into the place they were before, where all their great 'innovation' (actually, taking ideas that already exist and making a viable product out of them) gets raped by everyone else and they end up losing their market share because they don't keep innovating. It's happened to Apple before more times than I can count. The cracks are already starting to appear, Android combined with HTC and Samsung phones is beating seven shades out of the iPhone 4S these days. If the next iPhone isn't a revolution (i.e. not just a feature bump) then they are gonna get screwed in the personal comms market IMHO. Maybe they'll just move on. A lot of people are already touting them as having designs on the TV and entertainment market. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jul 5 02:34:15 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 03:34:15 -0400 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <4FF3E294.2030104@neurotica.com> <201207040638.CAA12102@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4FF3E7CA.9070901@neurotica.com> <4FF3EFA2.4000503@neurotica.com> <4FF4067B.4070106@jwsss.com> <4FF503FA.506@neurotica.com> <1341459021.20697.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <70C5A663-F1B4-4F4A-9C03-C596BA0A39C3@gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Benson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2012 2:47 AM Subject: Re: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... Maybe they'll just move on. A lot of people are already touting them as having designs on the TV and entertainment market. > Give it time and there will be porn on itunes. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Jul 5 02:42:01 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 08:42:01 +0100 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 7:47 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > A lot of people are already touting them as having designs on the TV and entertainment market. > Another Apple TV will go over like a Lead Zeppelin. (Then again, the Newton was a disaster so maybe they will get it right this time.) -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better? Amelia: Yeah. Doctor: Everything's going to be fine. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 5 02:58:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 03:58:22 -0400 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> On 07/05/2012 03:42 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > (Then again, the > Newton was a disaster so maybe they will get it right this time.) How, exactly? It worked very well, especially considering the era, and lots of them were sold. I've read enough of your posts to know that you wouldn't make a stupid assumption like "it didn't sell as well as the iPad, so..." type of thing, so you must know something about Newtons and their success as products that I don't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Jul 5 03:11:44 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:11:44 +0100 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > How, exactly? It worked very well, especially considering the era, > and lots of them were sold. I've read enough of your posts to know that > you wouldn't make a stupid assumption like "it didn't sell as well as > the iPad, so..." type of thing, so you must know something about Newtons > and their success as products that I don't. Well, because I had to work on them at the shop. Their big deal was supposed to be handwriting recognition, and that just didn't work very well. The whole thing seemed a bit clunky and slow and not very useful to me. I think they did coin the acronym PDA... and it did lead on to bigger and better things. (like the Ipad). I wouldn't say no to one if someone gave me one for my collection. (; -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better? Amelia: Yeah. Doctor: Everything's going to be fine. From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 03:22:31 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:22:31 +0100 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> On 5 Jul 2012, at 09:02, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/05/2012 03:42 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >> (Then again, the >> Newton was a disaster so maybe they will get it right this time.) > > How, exactly? It worked very well, especially considering the era, > and lots of them were sold. I've read enough of your posts to know that > you wouldn't make a stupid assumption like "it didn't sell as well as > the iPad, so..." type of thing, so you must know something about Newtons > and their success as products that I don't. The handwriting recognition was... inadequate (the cost of being a pioneering technology), they never sold in much volume (they were expensive and didn't have many applications), they were too heavy (a limitation of the technology available) and the screen was hard to read in some light or the backlight drained the battery (another tech limitation). The idea was sound, the execution not so much. It was a common problem at Apple back then. As a technology it was a good first stab, as a product it tanked. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 03:32:29 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:32:29 +0100 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4994683064219886333@unknownmsgid> On 5 Jul 2012, at 08:55, John Many Jars wrote: >> TV and entertainment market. > > Another Apple TV will go over like a Lead Zeppelin. This is rumoured as being a TV as in the full 9 yards, not just a box for HDMI, with everything the current AppleTV has plus Safari, Apps etc. Basically iOS for the living room. I am skeptical. Then again I never thought they'd take on the record industry and succeed either, but then again a lot of that was down to Steve playing hardball. They don't have that anymore. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Jul 5 03:46:45 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:46:45 +0100 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <4994683064219886333@unknownmsgid> References: <4994683064219886333@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > This is rumoured as being a TV as in the full 9 yards, not just a box > for HDMI, with everything the current AppleTV has plus Safari, Apps > etc. Basically iOS for the living room. > > I am skeptical. Then again I never thought they'd take on the record > industry and succeed either, but then again a lot of that was down to > Steve playing hardball. They don't have that anymore. They could always try another video-game system. Well, based on what my wife uses her Galaxy Note for, they already have. (; I love the way folks are kind of accusing Microsoft of copying the Ipad when Microsoft did tablets first (and they didn't sell). I guess Gates/Balmer just aren't cool the way Steve was. (; -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better? Amelia: Yeah. Doctor: Everything's going to be fine. From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 04:02:32 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 10:02:32 +0100 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: References: <4994683064219886333@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <-3884249749297660897@unknownmsgid> On 5 Jul 2012, at 09:50, John Many Jars wrote: > They could always try another video-game system. Well, based on what > my wife uses her Galaxy Note for, they already have. (; There have been vague rumours about a home entertainment system too but Apple have never gelled well with games. > I love the way folks are kind of accusing Microsoft of copying the > Ipad when Microsoft did tablets first (and they didn't sell). I guess > Gates/Balmer just aren't cool the way Steve was. (; I have a XP tablet - it's nice but it suffers most of the same issues the Newton did, ironically. Picky pen interface, too heavy (although admitedly mine is a Motion tablet so it's robustly built), poor battery life, gets way too hot. Oh and it's dog slow, but that might just be a lack of RAM. Again, good effort but it took a mindset shift to make the idea work... pity the result is a closed platform, I'd have bought one in a heartbeat otherwise. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 05:48:51 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:48:51 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > or two. Pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ Did a bit (;-) of reorganising in my garage after yesterdays arrivals. I have now built a Grey Wall of VAX (Not manuals ;-). Pictures available at the same link. I also took a more thorough inventory of the VAX systems. Where I list three or more of the same type, expect to see some of these offered in a few months or so (remember, these are in the Netherlands): BA213, BA215 and BA440 VAXen (pedestal): - 1 x MicroVAX 3300 - 3 x MicroVAX 3400 - 2 x VAX 4000/200 - 1 x VAXserver 4000/200 - 2 x VAX 4000/300 - 2 x VAXserver 4000/300 - 2 x VAX 4000/500A - 1 x VAX 4000/600 BA42 VAXen - 5 x MicroVAX 3100/? (BA42-A) - 5 x MicroVAX 3100/? (BA42-B) - 4 x MicroVAX 3100/40 - 3 x MicroVAX 3100/80 - 1 x MicroVAX 3100/90 - 11 x VAXstation 3100/? (BA42-A) - 1 x VAXstation 3100/? (BA42-B) - 6 x VAXstation 3100/38 - 1 x VAXstation 3100/38 SPX - 3 x VAXstation 3100/76 - 2 x VAXserver 3100/? (BA42-A) - 1 x VAXserver 3100/? (BA42-B) - 3 x VAXstation 4000/60 - 4 x InfoServer 150 - 2 x InfoServer 150 VXT BA40 VAXen: - 2 x MicroVAX 2000 - 1 x VAXserver 2000 - 1 x VAXstation 2000 Cheers, Camiel From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 05:58:08 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:58:08 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:21 PM, Grant Stockly wrote: > On a side note, I was expecting a much bigger truck from the description. > Around these parts a truck driving license is only required for the > biggest on the road vehicles, like an 18 wheeler. This is a picture of my > sunny day truck: In the Netherlands, the regular "B" driving license suffices for vehicles with a maximum permissible weight of 3.5 metric tonnes (~ 7,700 pounds). The max. weight for this van is 4.6 metric tonnes (~10,100 pounds), which means it requires a truck ("C") driving license. I believe we kind of loaded it to (if not over) the max (had about 4 inches of clearance between the road and the bottom of the bars under the van). > https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/9LpcK2X1U2XhOio5c_NeZg02SYNeF4bcqVYhbMgNj_g?feat=directlink Nice! From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 06:14:29 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:14:29 +0200 Subject: Free to a Good Home (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > or two. Pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ I did a little first sorting today, and have the following to offer for free to a good home (pickup in Wageningen, the Netherlands only!!!) - Bunch (15 or so) of BA350xx disk cabinets; some with personality module, some without; some with disks, some without; some with skins, some without. See this picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/7507055270/ - New-in-box US Robotics modem - Complete VMS 4.4 documentation set (orange wall) - Presumed complete VMS 7.1 documentation set (paperback) - Complete RSX-11M 4.2 documentation set (orange wall) Of the BA350's, I already have way too many. The manual sets are those I already have. Contact me off-list to arrange pickup. If these aren't gone before the end of the month, they'll end up at the scrapper's (frankly, I don't expect much interest in this). Camiel. From reiche at ls-al.eu Thu Jul 5 06:21:16 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 13:21:16 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201207051121.q65BLGi6011889@ls-al.eu> Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > Did a bit (;-) of reorganising in my garage after yesterdays arrivals. > I have now built a Grey Wall of VAX (Not manuals ;-). Pictures > available at the same link. Unbelievable ;) That is some Grey Wall you have there :) > I also took a more thorough inventory of the VAX systems. Where I list > three or more of the same type, expect to see some of these offered in > a few months or so (remember, these are in the Netherlands): > > BA213, BA215 and BA440 VAXen (pedestal): > - 3 x MicroVAX 3400 Write me down for one of those, if you please. Brings back memories when I was doing an internship at Digital here in the Netherlands and that was my `own' machine at the office. re, Sander From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Jul 5 06:37:19 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 13:37:19 +0200 Subject: Free to a Good Home (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF57C6F.10604@update.uu.se> On 07/05/2012 01:14 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > > I did a little first sorting today, and have the following to offer > for free to a good home (pickup in Wageningen, the Netherlands > only!!!) > Post a message on nekochan if you are a member. I think there are some active decheads from the Netherlands there. It would be a shame for the RSX manuals to go.. /P From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Jul 5 07:12:33 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 14:12:33 +0200 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: References: <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com> <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1341490353.24578.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> ons 2012-06-27 klockan 17:01 +0100 skrev Liam Proven: > On 27 June 2012 05:50, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 06/26/2012 01:23 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >>> About the Raspberry Pi in particular...I'm having a very hard time > >>> getting excited about it. It's a neat board, to be sure, but it's only > >>> the twentieth or thirtieth design just like it (and nobody got this > >>> excited about its predecessors), and you can't actually GET one without > >>> spending months on end on a waiting list. > >> > >> I am a bit surprised by the sheer level of hype myself, > > > > As am I. People are talking about it like it's the first small form > > factor Linux machine. > > It's the first at toy-level prices, perhaps. > Examples: > > From this site: > So we make about the same, but yours will buy you about 40-100% more > goods. *That* is a very big, real difference. > > For what it's worth, the UK is not a particularly expensive country by > European standards. A cup of coffee in a caf? here might be ?1.50; in > Norway or Sweden, ?4 or so. A pint of beer in London is about > ?3-?3.50; in Norway or Sweden, ?6-?7. There are cheaper countries than > here - a pint in the Czech Republic would be about 30-40p - but also > ones where everything is twice as expensive. I can easily get a cup of coffee for 2 british pounds, even as little as 1 pound (this is a medium size swedish town.) With a "wiener bread" it would be around 45 crowns 3.5 poundss or 5 euro. The same thing smack in Gothenburg downtown would be i think around 70 crowns. Which is around 8 euro. A pair of Lewis is a joke compared with the US (700 crowns around 80 euro) From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 07:32:17 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:32:17 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: <1090305.103923.1341490688785.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcbnp16> References: <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com> <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <1090305.103923.1341490688785.JavaMail.mobile-sync@vcbnp16> Message-ID: <6963539402216423624@unknownmsgid> The key point behind it is the price is well on the right side of the price threshold between 'I'd like one but it's a bit too much' (about 40-50 GBP in my case) and 'That's cheap and looks good, I'll have one' (about 25GBP in my case). That's an important factor and why demand is so high (a little too high at the moment). Also yep there's more cost for extras but they, as many pointed out, are requisite for any board you buy, so a more expensive board shoves the total price point up by the comparative amount. In this case cheap means 'less than most other equivalents' not 'it's only 35 bucks!!'. The third factor is that by the time I had mine all the files, tutorials, etc. I meeded to get it going inside 2 hours were on hand. Last time I bought a minature ARM dev board I paid a lit more and it went back in the box after a couple of days because I couldn't find the stuff I needed to get it going (it was a few years ago) Raspberry Pi has been the dismetric opposite. Satisfyingly inexpensive, easy to setup and use. Now mine is running 24/7 pretending to be a VAX. The whole lot including extras cost me less than 50 GBP. Mark me satisfied. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 07:34:36 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:34:36 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: <1341490353.24578.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com> <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <1341490353.24578.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: On 5 July 2012 13:12, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > I can easily get a cup of coffee for 2 british pounds, even as little as > 1 pound (this is a medium size swedish town.) I am afraid I have never left the capital. :?( But I am glad to hear that it is not as bad as I thought! > With a "wiener bread" it would be around 45 crowns 3.5 poundss or 5 > euro. > The same thing smack in Gothenburg downtown would be i think around 70 > crowns. Which is around 8 euro. > > A pair of Lewis is a joke compared with the US (700 crowns around 80 > euro) Owwww! :?( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jul 5 07:58:52 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 08:58:52 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4FF58F8C.4010709@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/07/12 10:06 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:52 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> >> >> C: A combination of yuppy love for way too expensive inferior machines and marketing made Jobs the success he was. The original Macs put him/Apple on the map in a sense. I love the Macs, don't get me wrong, but technical marvels they were ---NOT---. They were silly fun computers. For silly people who liked to have fun. I guess that makes me silly too :( > > Have you actually looked at what it takes to make a modern Mac vs a PC? I can tell you that they *are* technical > marvels from a number of different perspectives?manufacturing, industrial design, thermal management, etc. > That was equally true in 1984. But I guess you had to be there. --Toby > TTFN - Guy > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jul 5 08:07:04 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 09:07:04 -0400 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FF59178.6000505@telegraphics.com.au> On 04/07/12 9:31 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Visionary in product design, management, and marketing?.. you must have >>> never heard of NEXT computer. > On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Toby Thain wrote: >> I own a couple. Were you actually around in the '80s? > > I hung out in the wrong circles! > > I played with a pre-release Lisa (being used to develp Berkeley > SmallTalk); I never touched on after that. > I played with a pre-release NeXT; I never touched one after that. > I never touched an Apple///, although I gave my nephew a ][+ with a /// > monitor on it. > > Based on those two machines, it was obvious that Jobs wanted closed > systems. Yes, he did. He was consistent about it. Nonetheless, many of the systems he was responsible for allowed expansion and extension. The trend has been towards closing this down, reaching its obvious nadir in the iOS family. This is one reason I no longer buy new Apple. > Q: was he color-blind? (but otherwise good visual acuity) It seemed as > though he was not very enthusiastic about adding color to the screen! He also fought Jef Raskin over the issue of bitmap screens and proportional fonts (according to Raskin's account, Jobs wanted a character generator, but Raskin's humanist view eventually prevailed, giving the Mac its crisp bitmap display and pretty typography). > > > Hey! I wonder if Apple was first to have a personal computer available in > case color "Raspberry"? If THAT is one of the requirements for "first > personal computer", . . . What were the color names for the iMac? (the > ADM3a look-alike) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IMac_G3_flavors.jpg --Toby > > > From tsg at bonedaddy.net Thu Jul 5 08:15:12 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:15:12 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Guy Sotomayor [120705 01:17]: > Oh, not *that* argument again. *sigh*. Actually try and price an *identically* configured PC & Mac and I think you'll find that the price difference isn't so much (in quite a few cases the Mac is cheaper). Yes, there are cheap PCs. And they are little more than repackaged Intel reference designs (and they pretty much suck). Then look at the MacBook Air (which turns out to be the *least* expensive of the Mac portables). The PC manufactures can't even match Apple's price. It's so bad that the "ultra book" designation that Intel is pushing (Apple invented the category with the original MacBook Air BTW) can't be built to be price competitive with Apple unless Intel subsidizes the price. *Sigh* Not *that* argument again. Everytime someone says this I go look at prices and never see the great parity between Apple and PC. Maybe the Apple proponents get special pricing or something. An 11" MacBook Air on the Apple Store is $999. 1.7GHz Core i5, 4GB memory, 64GB flash. I can't even find an 11" PC ultrabook in looking quickly. But a 13.3" Sony VAIO (SVT13112FXS) with 1.7Ghz Core i5 4GB memory, 500GB HD + 32GB MLC hybrid is $799. Brushed aluminum case and the battery can be replaced (or a spare carried for extended time away from AC.) While it's likely slightly larger and heavier, it isn't much. So if you value the absolute minimal size/weight or the style or just happen to like Apple then by all means buy them and support them. But they're in not price compatible with a PC and you'll pay for those things. Whether it's worth the price difference is certainly a subjective matter. Todd From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 08:32:22 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 15:32:22 +0200 Subject: Free to a Good Home (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > I did a little first sorting today, and have the following to offer > for free to a good home (pickup in Wageningen, the Netherlands > only!!!) > > - Bunch (15 or so) of BA350xx disk cabinets; some with personality > module, some without; some with disks, some without; some with skins, > some without. See this picture: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/7507055270/ > - New-in-box US Robotics modem > - Complete VMS 4.4 documentation set (orange wall) > - Presumed complete VMS 7.1 documentation set (paperback) > - Complete RSX-11M 4.2 documentation set (orange wall) > > Of the BA350's, I already have way too many. The manual sets are those > I already have. > > Contact me off-list to arrange pickup. If these aren't gone before the > end of the month, they'll end up at the scrapper's (frankly, I don't > expect much interest in this). > > Camiel. I guess I was wrong about the level of interest. The manuals have been claimed, as have some of the BA350's. Camiel. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jul 5 08:52:54 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 14:52:54 +0100 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes and the Quarry in question was Hyton Quarry in Liverpool right next to my school. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 04 July 2012 01:08 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Today, in the bus to work... On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Dave wrote: >> And Paul McCartney is rumoured to have been in a band before "Wings". >> > Yes, I think they were "The Quarrymen" ..... Indeed. Famous all over the North, as I hear it. -ethan From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 09:11:24 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 15:11:24 +0100 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> On 5 Jul 2012, at 14:19, Todd Goodman wrote: > An 11" MacBook Air on the Apple Store is $999. 1.7GHz Core i5, 4GB > memory, 64GB flash. > > I can't even find an 11" PC ultrabook in looking quickly. But a 13.3" > Sony VAIO (SVT13112FXS) with 1.7Ghz Core i5 4GB memory, 500GB HD + 32GB > MLC hybrid is $799. Brushed aluminum case and the battery can be replaced > (or a spare carried for extended time away from AC.) > > While it's likely slightly larger and heavier, it isn't much. > > So if you value the absolute minimal size/weight or the style or just > happen to like Apple then by all means buy them and support them. I bet the build quality finish and durability aren't as good on that VAIO though... Pure and simple thing that sold me on the Air is the build quality and little details in the way it's put together. It feels like it'll last. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 09:19:49 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:19:49 -0300 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th References: Message-ID: <2cff01cd5ab9$48c48260$6600a8c0@tababook> Congratulations, now you have "The house of Vax" :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Camiel Vanderhoeven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 3:52 PM Subject: Megahaul on July 4th > Hi Guys, > > Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old > iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector > moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week > or two. Pictures at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ > > A quick inventory: > > PDP stuff: > - PDP 11/44 > - PDP 11/84 > - 3 x RL02 > - Professional 325 > - Professional 350 > > VAX stuff: > - 12 x BA213/BA440 pedestal VAX systems (MV3400, VAX 4000/200,300,500A, > ...) > - 3 x R400X storage pedestal > - 3 x R215F storage pedestal > - 47 x pizzabox VAX systems (MV3100, VAXstation 4000, Infoserver 150, ...) > - 22 x pizzabox storage expansion > - 4 x lunchbox VAX systems (MV/VAXserver/VAXstation 2000) > - 11 x lunchbox storage expansion > > MIPS stuff: > - DECsystem 5400 (pedestal) > - 2 x Personal DECstation 5000/25 > - DECstation 2100 > - DECstation 5000/133 > - DECstation 5000/200 > > Alpha stuff: > - 2 x DEC3000 > > Miscellaneous stuff: > - VAXmate PC500 w/RCD31 expansion box > - 2 x HSZ40 > - 18 x StorageWorks BA350 > - 6 x StorageWorks BA353 > - DECNIS 600 w/ DNSAN, DNSAM,W614/618,L602 > - 5 x DECserver 700 > - 3 x DECserver 200/MC > - LANbridge 200 > - Lots of DEChub stuff > - Lots of manuals, cables, spare cards, spare disks, etc... > > I need to remind people not to send any more donations for the next > few months while I sort this stuff out. I won't keep it all, so I'll > probably post some messages here in the next few months to sell or > give away some of it. Some of it may have to end up in the bin > eventually (like storage expansion boxes with broken drives) > > Does anyone here have any experience with the Professional systems and > the VAXmate? I believe the latter is an 8086 system, is that correct? > Would the DECNIS stuff still be of use to anyone? > > Cheers, > > Camiel From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 09:25:04 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:25:04 -0300 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> > I bet the build quality finish and durability aren't as good on that > VAIO though... I want no VAIO on my life anymore. This is one of the shittest computers I've ever repaired. Want a sturdy computer? Buy an IBM machine. Ops, Lenovo :P From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 09:26:55 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 10:26:55 -0400 Subject: IBM docs in Chicago are safe Message-ID: I have now confirmed that one of the mainframe guys has rescued the IBM docs. Thanks all for offers of help. You may eventually be called for duty again, as there is apparently a whole bunch of microfiche there than needs to be rescued as well. I do not know the details, nor the urgency. -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 09:48:13 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 15:48:13 +0100 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: On 5 July 2012 15:25, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I bet the build quality finish and durability aren't as good on that >> VAIO though... > > I want no VAIO on my life anymore. This is one of the shittest computers > I've ever repaired. Want a sturdy computer? Buy an IBM machine. Ops, Lenovo > :P Strongly agree there. I have seen a lot of dead Vaio laptops - and Dells and HPs and so on - but very few dead Thinkpads. They are tough and they last. But, they cost... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 09:52:39 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 15:52:39 +0100 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4576218013442375283@unknownmsgid> On 5 Jul 2012, at 15:30, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I bet the build quality finish and durability aren't as good on that >> VAIO though... > > I want no VAIO on my life anymore. This is one of the shittest computers I've ever repaired. I've heard similar stories. > Want a sturdy computer? Buy an IBM machine. Ops, Lenovo :P Lenovo Thinkpad laptops sadly are sliding towards 'plastic crap' and away from the 'solid built IBM quality' end of the scale. Sad, the (2007) R61i that got returned to me with a dead battery went through 3 years of hell with a teenager and came out fighting, has a missing key and the awfully slow hard drive got slung in favour if an SSD but aside from that it's a champ. It even rubs Windows 8 pretty well! -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jul 5 10:21:58 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 08:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF58F8C.4010709@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <4FF58F8C.4010709@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1341501718.73598.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Toby Thain > Have you actually looked at what it takes to make a modern Mac vs a PC?? I can tell you that they *are* technical > marvels from a number of different perspectives?manufacturing, industrial design, thermal management, etc. > That was equally true in 1984. But I guess you had to be there. --Toby > TTFN - Guy C: Again whatever technically innovative marvels were built into early Macs, it didn't make up for thoroughly subpar hardware. And yeah I was there. It's a fun toy, I totally give it that. But it wasn't worth 2500$ w/128k ram. And no dedicated graphics chip. The whir WHIR whir of the disk drives was a plus though in my book. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 10:26:19 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:26:19 -0400 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4576218013442375283@unknownmsgid> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> <4576218013442375283@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <0CF974DA-EF7C-4DE6-914F-5B2D299195E3@gmail.com> On Jul 5, 2012, at 10:52 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > Lenovo Thinkpad laptops sadly are sliding towards 'plastic crap' and > away from the 'solid built IBM quality' end of the scale. For "everyday" work (i.e. light development work, web browsing, email, etc.), older Thinkpads are great and are pretty robust in the face of heavy abuse. Just drop something lightweight on them (I have a hard time counting modern Linux as lightweight, but some BSDs do the trick nicely). I can't imagine that Lenovo would maintain the quality that IBM did, but then I was never sure why IBM maintained that quality either. Perhaps it was because they were standard in large businesses that would shell out real money for PCs? > Sad, the (2007) R61i that got returned to me with a dead battery went > through 3 years of hell with a teenager and came out fighting, has a > missing key and the awfully slow hard drive got slung in favour if an > SSD but aside from that it's a champ. It even rubs Windows 8 pretty > well! I hear Windows 8 needs a lot of rubbing. - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jul 5 10:28:33 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 08:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <1341502113.1185.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Alexandre Souza - Listas > I bet the build quality finish and durability aren't as good on that > VAIO though... ? I want no VAIO on my life anymore. This is one of the shittest computers I've ever repaired. Want a sturdy computer? Buy an IBM machine. Ops, Lenovo :P C: I had a VAIO. It was ground breaking, sort of. One of the earliest P4s I guess, 16" screen. Gorgeous machine. In excess of 2Gs. Then it crapped the bed 1.5 years later. And I never used it for much. ?Thinkpads are nice, but those horrific little mouse buttons are atrocities. ?You pay extra for both Sony and IBM. I have no love for Sony anymore. I like Thinkpads, but can't justify the cost. ?In the final analysis you *can* get a Toshiba, for instance, sometimes for under 300$. 15-17" screen. I'm good to go (what I'm using now are much more expensive though). You *can't* buy a Macbook cheaply. You gotta spend the bucks. I can't see it. Especially now that they have Intel inside... From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 10:36:40 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 10:36:40 -0500 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF5B488.3040102@gmail.com> On 07/03/2012 03:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Of course "first PC" is open to debate, but a Mac ? > > Can anyone give a resonable justification fo that answer. I actualyl > can';t think of anythign the Mac was 'first' for. Well, it was the first machine that I used where I couldn't find a single thing that I liked about it ;-) cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 10:37:10 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 16:37:10 +0100 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <1341502113.1185.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> <1341502113.1185.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5 July 2012 16:28, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Thinkpads are nice, but those horrific little mouse buttons are atrocities. Beware of confusing your personal preferences for general objective facts. I am on my 3rd Thinkpad now. I find the Trackpoint perfectly usable and more pleasant than a cheap trackpad. Of course, you are free not to like it, but that does not mean that they are bad or there is anything wrong with them; it's just your opinion. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From wolfgang at eichberger.org Thu Jul 5 11:02:12 2012 From: wolfgang at eichberger.org (Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 18:02:12 +0200 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: <2cff01cd5ab9$48c48260$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <2cff01cd5ab9$48c48260$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: Awesome. You generated the new definition for a "grey wall". I must state that I have never seen that much of dec-stuff in one place here in Austria. At least not in hobbyists hands... I would gladly take one or two of the vax units or a RL02 drive but am a bit too far away, shipping costs must be killing for that heavy kind of stuff. Regards, Wolfgang 2012/7/5 Alexandre Souza - Listas > > Congratulations, now you have "The house of Vax" :o) > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Camiel Vanderhoeven" < > iamcamiel at gmail.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>; "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" < > cctech at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 3:52 PM > Subject: Megahaul on July 4th > > > > Hi Guys, >> >> Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old >> iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector >> moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week >> or two. Pictures at >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/**7816395 at N04/sets/**72157630422540146/ >> >> A quick inventory: >> >> PDP stuff: >> - PDP 11/44 >> - PDP 11/84 >> - 3 x RL02 >> - Professional 325 >> - Professional 350 >> >> VAX stuff: >> - 12 x BA213/BA440 pedestal VAX systems (MV3400, VAX 4000/200,300,500A, >> ...) >> - 3 x R400X storage pedestal >> - 3 x R215F storage pedestal >> - 47 x pizzabox VAX systems (MV3100, VAXstation 4000, Infoserver 150, ...) >> - 22 x pizzabox storage expansion >> - 4 x lunchbox VAX systems (MV/VAXserver/VAXstation 2000) >> - 11 x lunchbox storage expansion >> >> MIPS stuff: >> - DECsystem 5400 (pedestal) >> - 2 x Personal DECstation 5000/25 >> - DECstation 2100 >> - DECstation 5000/133 >> - DECstation 5000/200 >> >> Alpha stuff: >> - 2 x DEC3000 >> >> Miscellaneous stuff: >> - VAXmate PC500 w/RCD31 expansion box >> - 2 x HSZ40 >> - 18 x StorageWorks BA350 >> - 6 x StorageWorks BA353 >> - DECNIS 600 w/ DNSAN, DNSAM,W614/618,L602 >> - 5 x DECserver 700 >> - 3 x DECserver 200/MC >> - LANbridge 200 >> - Lots of DEChub stuff >> - Lots of manuals, cables, spare cards, spare disks, etc... >> >> I need to remind people not to send any more donations for the next >> few months while I sort this stuff out. I won't keep it all, so I'll >> probably post some messages here in the next few months to sell or >> give away some of it. Some of it may have to end up in the bin >> eventually (like storage expansion boxes with broken drives) >> >> Does anyone here have any experience with the Professional systems and >> the VAXmate? I believe the latter is an 8086 system, is that correct? >> Would the DECNIS stuff still be of use to anyone? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Camiel >> > > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 5 11:11:54 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <0CF974DA-EF7C-4DE6-914F-5B2D299195E3@gmail.com> from David Riley at "Jul 5, 12 11:26:19 am" Message-ID: <201207051611.q65GBsWT14811180@floodgap.com> > > Sad, the (2007) R61i that got returned to me with a dead battery went > > through 3 years of hell with a teenager and came out fighting, has a > > missing key and the awfully slow hard drive got slung in favour if an > > SSD but aside from that it's a champ. It even rubs Windows 8 pretty > > well! > > I hear Windows 8 needs a lot of rubbing. Careful, it might go off. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of DeForest Kelley ----------------------------------------------- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 11:20:57 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:20:57 -0300 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> <4576218013442375283@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <2e9d01cd5aca$49fe2b20$6600a8c0@tababook> >> I want no VAIO on my life anymore. This is one of the shittest >> computers I've ever repaired. > I've heard similar stories. I can tell you some, I worked repairing laptops and I can tell you lots of problems, design errors and like. In VAIO computers :oP >> Want a sturdy computer? Buy an IBM machine. Ops, Lenovo :P > Lenovo Thinkpad laptops sadly are sliding towards 'plastic crap' and > away from the 'solid built IBM quality' end of the scale. Mine seems to be THE one in the transition IBM -> Lenovo (T60). I just love it, I maxed it out (and now looking for a core2 duo to put on it), I see no notebook I can buy that is better than it. At least with 4:3 screen :oP > Sad, the (2007) R61i that got returned to me with a dead battery went > through 3 years of hell with a teenager and came out fighting, has a > missing key and the awfully slow hard drive got slung in favour if an > SSD but aside from that it's a champ. It even rubs Windows 8 pretty > well! The R61 is great! And don't worry with Windows 8, eventually it will rub it out. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 11:21:56 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:21:56 -0300 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <2ece01cd5aca$7ef9dbd0$6600a8c0@tababook> > Strongly agree there. I have seen a lot of dead Vaio laptops - and > Dells and HPs and so on - but very few dead Thinkpads. They are tough > and they last. > But, they cost... I've only bought ONE new notebook (it was an acer, and I sold it 2 months later). I see no why not to use old notebooks. My T60 is great! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 5 11:25:53 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 10:25:53 -0600 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: <2cff01cd5ab9$48c48260$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: In article , "Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger" writes: > I would gladly take one or two of the vax units or a RL02 drive but am a > bit too far away, shipping costs must be killing for that heavy kind of > stuff. Road trip! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 11:28:25 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 18:28:25 +0200 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I know the Pro series pretty well; I used to sell and service them. > They are pretty well-understood amongst many people on this list. You > won't have trouble getting Pro help here. All right, so here's the first few Pro related questions: 1. I don't have a keyboard or monitor to go with it. I see from the manual on Bitsavers that the monitor gets a composite video signal, and that the keyboard uses 4800-baud 8-N-1 RS423 signalling. Is the protocol described anywhere? 2. I found a box with three option cards: 2 x 000046 and 1 x 000401. What are these? Thanks, Camiel. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jul 5 11:43:52 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 09:43:52 -0700 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:48 PM +0200 7/5/12, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven > wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> >> Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old >> iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector >> moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week >> or two. Pictures at > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ Simply put, WOW! I wish you were local, I'd love one or two of those StorageWorks pedestals. That is one serious collection of VAX hardware! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jon at jonworld.com Thu Jul 5 11:47:57 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:47:57 -0400 Subject: Lenovo Laptops Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Want a sturdy computer? Buy an IBM machine. Ops, Lenovo :P >> >> Lenovo Thinkpad laptops sadly are sliding towards 'plastic crap' and >> away from the 'solid built IBM quality' end of the scale. I have 3 Lenovo laptops in my possession, a T61 (from a former employer) a T420 (on-loan from a current customer) and a G550. They have consumer-grade and commercial-grade lines, with the T-series being the commercial-grade. The T420 still seems of excellent quality, even when compared to the T60/T61-era machines, and the T43 (T60 precursor and last of the IBM-branded stuff.) It has been sad to see them go from metal (magnesium?) casing to plastic over the years, but IBM had already initiated that change, IIRC. Given the abuse I've put my T61 through (weekly commutes from IND to YUL, IND to MSP, etc.) it has my vote of being a solid laptop. I don't see the T420 (current Lenovo) straying too far from that mark. Both my "T" systems run Windows 7. The "G" system is running Windows 8 preview. The G550 is another story. It's a consumer-grade system with a 16:9 screen and 1366x768 resolution. It's body is solid enough, but I've managed to have my DVD-ROM drive bezel pop off and go MIA. I can use it for browsing the internet, but not much else. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Jul 5 11:50:30 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 16:50:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <201207040419.q644Jj81090406@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <201207040419.q644Jj81090406@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> First consumer machine with >> bit-mapped-only video (no text mode)? > > Sinclair Spectrum, Corvus Concept and Multitech (now Acer) > Microprofessor II are a few of the earlier bitmapped machines. The > Concept was a bit more expensive than the Mac, but not absurdly so like > the Lisa. The Spectrum isn't really bitmapped. IIRC you define up to 20? 8x8 pixel tiles (one bit per pixel) and can draw them in place of characters (i.e. at any multiple-of-8 pixel vertical or horizontal offset from 0) with the same color and bright/flash attributes as normal characters. That was the case in BASIC, at least, maybe you could do more in assembly, but I don't recall seeing a frame buffer in the memory map... Of course you could use the 16 standard graphics tiles that give you 2x2 'pixels' per character cell, but you are still limited to 2 colors per 1 block of 4 'pixels' and you only get 64x48 of them. Alexey From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 11:59:38 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:59:38 -0400 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > All right, so here's the first few Pro related questions: > > 1. I don't have a keyboard or monitor to go with it. I see from the > manual on Bitsavers that the monitor gets a composite video signal, Yep. A DEC VR201 is the typical monitor on a Pro, but its DA15 connector just carries RS170 video, +12V to power the VR201, and data for the keyboard. I've rigged up a video-and-power cable (no KB) to use a VR201 with an Amiga 2000. There's no reason you can't use an NTSC monitor with the Pro. If you have a monochrome monitor, you'll likely get a sharper image than if you have a color monitor, but either way, you should be able to see what's going on. > and that the keyboard uses 4800-baud 8-N-1 RS423 signalling. Is the > protocol described anywhere? Yes, but I can't recall in exactly which manual off the top of my head. The "right" keyboard is a DEC LK201, but ISTR there are several similar keyboards with the same electrical and logical characteristics. If you have or can borrow a keyboard from a DECmate II/III, or a Rainbow or a VT220 (or similar-era) terminal, that will work. In the States, you could re-use a "handset connector" from a telephone to build a cable that will break out to your non-DEC monitor and a keyboard connector; I don't know if there are any European telephones that use the narrow-format "4p4c" jack. I think there was some discussion on this list a while back about a DIY microcontroller-based DEC LK2xx-to-PS/2 keyboard adapter, but I don't remember if anyone ever posted instructions/firmware. The hardware would not be difficult to assemble, but it might take a couple of passes to get the firmware tweaked up. > 2. I found a box with three option cards: 2 x 000046 and 1 x 000401. > What are these? cf http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt 000046 PC3XX-AA CTI Realtime Interface 000046 PN: 50-15538 000046 Refs: EB-25824-18 000401 -------- CTI 5.25" Winchester disk controller 000401 PN: 54-15134 000401 Refs: EK-PC100-V2 -ethan From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jul 5 12:01:59 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 13:01:59 -0400 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF5C887.1020603@atarimuseum.com> Oh man!!!!!!!! Its a microvax wet dream!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow!!!!!!!!! Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 12:48 PM +0200 7/5/12, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven >> wrote: >>> Hi Guys, >>> >>> Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old >>> iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector >>> moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week >>> or two. Pictures at >> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ > > Simply put, WOW! I wish you were local, I'd love one or two of those > StorageWorks pedestals. That is one serious collection of VAX hardware! > > Zane > > From fast79ta at yahoo.com Thu Jul 5 12:02:47 2012 From: fast79ta at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:02:47 -0600 Subject: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF59178.6000505@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> <4FF59178.6000505@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <009301cd5ad0$014e52a0$03eaf7e0$@yahoo.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Toby Thain Sent: July-05-12 7:07 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Jobs - what's he done for us lately? - Re: Today, in the bus to work... On 04/07/12 9:31 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Visionary in product design, management, and marketing?.. you must >>> have never heard of NEXT computer. > On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Toby Thain wrote: >> I own a couple. Were you actually around in the '80s? > > I hung out in the wrong circles! > > I played with a pre-release Lisa (being used to develp Berkeley > SmallTalk); I never touched on after that. > I played with a pre-release NeXT; I never touched one after that. > I never touched an Apple///, although I gave my nephew a ][+ with a > /// monitor on it. > > Based on those two machines, it was obvious that Jobs wanted closed > systems. >Yes, he did. He was consistent about it. According to Mr. Wozniak in iWoz, he had to fight Jobs off from only having 2 (if I recall right) expansion slots in the Apple ][. One for the disk drive, and another for another common card (printer I would guess). That book pretty fixed me on Jobs. I knew he was a tyrant, but ripping off your best (and probably only) friend over the breakout arcade game modification "bounty" from Atari with an artificial deadline (so Jobs could go on a trip the next week, probably with the cash from Atari). The whole Apple ][ vs Mac split in Apple was cute too. Especially considering Apple ][ was paying for everything. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 5 12:50:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 13:50:09 -0400 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF5D3D1.6090506@neurotica.com> On 07/05/2012 04:11 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >> How, exactly? It worked very well, especially considering the era, >> and lots of them were sold. I've read enough of your posts to know that >> you wouldn't make a stupid assumption like "it didn't sell as well as >> the iPad, so..." type of thing, so you must know something about Newtons >> and their success as products that I don't. > > Well, because I had to work on them at the shop. Their big deal was > supposed to be handwriting recognition, and that just didn't work very > well. Interesting. I found the handwriting recognition to be excellent. Generations of Palm Pilots with their "graffiti" version of the alphabet (basically compensation for poor engineering), going forward for about a decade, still couldn't even come close to the accuracy of the Newton's handwriting recognition. That said, though, I am one to know the limits of new technologies, and work within them...I don't expect something to be magical just because it's new. (not accusing you of that mindset...just pointing out that it's common) A lot of people criticized the Newton because it was bigger than a pocket sized...clearly not understanding the fact that, for the technology of the day, making it as small as it was was nothing short of a miracle. > The whole thing seemed a bit clunky and slow and not very useful to > me. I think they did coin the acronym PDA... and it did lead on to > bigger and better things. (like the Ipad). Well yeah, after two decades of additional technological development! ;) All that said, though, while I did have a new first-run Newton, I very often wished it was faster. Most of my Newton opinions are based on the MP2000/MP2100 machines, which were just plain amazing in nearly every way...once again, given the limitations of the technology of the day. They were night and day compared to the *first* newtons (the MP100 family) which is probably the ones that people complain about. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Jul 5 12:54:15 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 19:54:15 +0200 Subject: Free for pickup AEG/Telefunken Terminal Message-ID: <002d01cd5ad7$34defd70$9e9cf850$@xs4all.nl> I've a AEG/Telefunken M28-12W (1974) terminal, it's free but local pickup only. I'm located in the Netherlands.. -Rik From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 12:55:15 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 14:55:15 -0300 Subject: Lenovo Laptops References: Message-ID: <2f5a01cd5ad7$602ca720$6600a8c0@tababook> > even when compared to the T60/T61-era machines, and the T43 (T60 > precursor and last of the IBM-branded stuff.) It has been sad to see T60 was the last...Mine is still the IBM branded, I had a girlfriend with a Lenovo T60. The difference seemed to be just the sticker. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 5 12:56:10 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 10:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120705105316.J34140@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > The whole thing seemed a bit clunky and slow and not very useful to > me. I think they did coin the acronym PDA... and it did lead on to > bigger and better things. (like the Ipad). > I wouldn't say no to one if someone gave me one for my collection. (; Why was the Palm Pilot more successful than the newton? Fossil/Abacus sold a wristwatch with PalmOS (4.x) Not as nice as the never-imported Epson RC20 (Z80 based), but more readily usable From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 5 13:02:42 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 14:02:42 -0400 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4FF5D6C2.2010306@neurotica.com> On 07/05/2012 04:22 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > The handwriting recognition was... inadequate (the cost of being a > pioneering technology), they never sold in much volume (they were > expensive and didn't have many applications), they were too heavy (a > limitation of the technology available) and the screen was hard to > read in some light or the backlight drained the battery (another tech > limitation). The idea was sound, the execution not so much. It was a > common problem at Apple back then. > > As a technology it was a good first stab, as a product it tanked. Whoa buddy, not so fast. If by "tanked" you mean "failed to be purchased by everyone who had heard of a computer", sure. ;) Damn near every technical person in my company at the time had one. (that was a bunch) They were VERY popular in all the tech haunts in my geographic area at the time (Washington DC area). From where I sat, everyone seemed to have one. Granted that was the tech crowd, but that's a lot of people. It certainly tanked from the perspective of Apple trying to make it a household thing for every nontechnical person to own (like the iPad is now) and while it didn't meet Apples (unrealistic) expectations in that area, but it's not like they didn't sell a shitload of them. I've never been able to find sales figures for them, but I STILL, as recently as a couple of months ago, see them popping up in the surplus market. It takes a lot of sales volume for the surplus market to still be seeing them almost fifteen years after their discontinuance. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 5 13:03:52 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <20120705105650.L34140@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Mark Benson wrote: > As a technology it was a good first stab, as a product it tanked. Yes, but watch out for using the word "first" - you know how we obsess over THAT! Fujitsu's Poqet tablet? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 5 13:14:48 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: <1341490353.24578.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com> <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <1341490353.24578.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <20120705111337.C34140@shell.lmi.net> > A pint of beer in London is about > ?3-?3.50; in Norway or Sweden, ?6-?7. There are cheaper countries than > here - a pint in the Czech Republic would be about 30-40p - but also > ones where everything is twice as expensive. When "A pint is a pound, the world around" ceases to be true, the world economies are in big trouble. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 5 13:34:42 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 11:34:42 -0700 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <20120705105316.J34140@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <20120705105316.J34140@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FF5DE42.7020308@bitsavers.org> On 7/5/12 10:56 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Why was the Palm Pilot more successful than the newton? > It was a useful peripheral for your desktop computer that had vendor support for syncing to Windows and Mac. Newton tried to be a standalone device that had minimal support for syncing to Macs. The eMate was the worst of both worlds, along with ONLY selling them into the education channel. The first iPods only worked with MacOS. Sales didn't take off until Windows support and the iTunes store. From madodel at ptdprolog.net Thu Jul 5 13:37:53 2012 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 14:37:53 -0400 Subject: Lenovo Laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF5DF01.2070903@ptdprolog.net> On 07/05/12 12:47, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas > wrote: >>>> Want a sturdy computer? Buy an IBM machine. Ops, Lenovo :P >>> >>> Lenovo Thinkpad laptops sadly are sliding towards 'plastic crap' and >>> away from the 'solid built IBM quality' end of the scale. > > I have 3 Lenovo laptops in my possession, a T61 (from a former > employer) a T420 (on-loan from a current customer) and a G550. They > have consumer-grade and commercial-grade lines, with the T-series > being the commercial-grade. The T420 still seems of excellent quality, > even when compared to the T60/T61-era machines, and the T43 (T60 > precursor and last of the IBM-branded stuff.) It has been sad to see > them go from metal (magnesium?) casing to plastic over the years, but > IBM had already initiated that change, IIRC. Given the abuse I've put > my T61 through (weekly commutes from IND to YUL, IND to MSP, etc.) it > has my vote of being a solid laptop. I don't see the T420 (current > Lenovo) straying too far from that mark. Both my "T" systems run > Windows 7. The "G" system is running Windows 8 preview. > > The G550 is another story. It's a consumer-grade system with a 16:9 > screen and 1366x768 resolution. It's body is solid enough, but I've > managed to have my DVD-ROM drive bezel pop off and go MIA. I can use > it for browsing the internet, but not much else. > I have a T61, and though it is heavy and seem solid, it is not as technically well constructed as the IBM T42p it replaced. Things like volume buttons are software controlled which presents problems for running OS/2 on it. The builtin SD card slot didn't even work with the RH Linux pre-installed on it. I loved my T42p, even having to replace the mother board twice because it was so damn lite it was easy to pick up and carry with one hand which flexed (and cracked) the mother board. I think the Lenovos are better then most any other laptop I have seen, but they are not quite as good as the IBM designed ones. I have a Thinkpad x201 tablet which I haven't yet gotten eComStation (Latest OEM of OS/2) installed successfully on, but I had it on an x200 tablet running well (including the touch screen) except for the wireless network card which still lacks an OS/2 driver. I bricked the x200 by putting a jail break BIOS on it to stop the stupid wifi card boot check so I could put a supported wifi card in it. Anyone know how to restore the original BIOS? It won't boot from the optical or hard drive any more, so using the Lenovo BIOS CD doesn't work. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2012 - http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe 2012 -http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From madodel at ptdprolog.net Thu Jul 5 13:39:30 2012 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 14:39:30 -0400 Subject: Lenovo Laptops In-Reply-To: <2f5a01cd5ad7$602ca720$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <2f5a01cd5ad7$602ca720$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4FF5DF62.70604@ptdprolog.net> On 07/05/12 13:55, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> even when compared to the T60/T61-era machines, and the T43 (T60 >> precursor and last of the IBM-branded stuff.) It has been sad to see > > T60 was the last...Mine is still the IBM branded, I had a girlfriend with a > Lenovo T60. The difference seemed to be just the sticker. > I was told the T60's were the first of the Lenovo designed models. The T4x were the last of the IBM designed but Lenovo built. Mark -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2012 - http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe 2012 -http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 5 13:41:17 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <20120705105316.J34140@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Jul 5, 12 10:56:10 am" Message-ID: <201207051841.q65IfHXa13566052@floodgap.com> > > The whole thing seemed a bit clunky and slow and not very useful to > > me. I think they did coin the acronym PDA... and it did lead on to > > bigger and better things. (like the Ipad). > > I wouldn't say no to one if someone gave me one for my collection. (; > > Why was the Palm Pilot more successful than the newton? Others have pointed out the ease of syncing, but writing apps for the PalmOS was much more straightforward than the Newton. ARM was a less familiar architecture those days, NewtonOS was a bit esoteric in some respects, and above all else the Palm Pilot *was smaller* so more people were likely to have it with them. PalmOS was a lot like MacOS, had the familiar 68K processor backing it, and didn't try to do "too much." As is usual, worse is better. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Denial: it's not just a river in Egypt anymore, is it? -- "True Lies" ------ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 5 13:41:44 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 14:41:44 -0400 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <20120705105316.J34140@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <20120705105316.J34140@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FF5DFE8.7030508@neurotica.com> On 07/05/2012 01:56 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> The whole thing seemed a bit clunky and slow and not very useful to >> me. I think they did coin the acronym PDA... and it did lead on to >> bigger and better things. (like the Ipad). >> I wouldn't say no to one if someone gave me one for my collection. (; > > Why was the Palm Pilot more successful than the newton? This question has been asked by everyone who has ever used both. I am SO glad PalmOS finally went the way of the dodo. It was the Windows of the PDA world...unbelievably bad, but everyone bought it anyway, as if under some sort of hypnosis. > Fossil/Abacus sold a wristwatch with PalmOS (4.x) > Not as nice as the never-imported Epson RC20 (Z80 based), but more readily > usable Although I despise PalmOS (used it for WAY too long on Treo phones) I'd love to see that wristwatch, it sounds like a neat idea. I'd dearly love to have an RC20 but have never been able to find one. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 5 13:48:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 14:48:17 -0400 Subject: Lenovo laptops, was Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <0CF974DA-EF7C-4DE6-914F-5B2D299195E3@gmail.com> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> <4576218013442375283@unknownmsgid> <0CF974DA-EF7C-4DE6-914F-5B2D299195E3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FF5E171.9060001@neurotica.com> On 07/05/2012 11:26 AM, David Riley wrote: >> Lenovo Thinkpad laptops sadly are sliding towards 'plastic crap' and >> away from the 'solid built IBM quality' end of the scale. > > For "everyday" work (i.e. light development work, web browsing, > email, etc.), older Thinkpads are great and are pretty robust in > the face of heavy abuse. Just drop something lightweight on them > (I have a hard time counting modern Linux as lightweight, but some > BSDs do the trick nicely). > > I can't imagine that Lenovo would maintain the quality that IBM > did, but then I was never sure why IBM maintained that quality > either. Perhaps it was because they were standard in large > businesses that would shell out real money for PCs? I have a new Lenovo laptop. I've been accustomed to Apple build quality for about ten years, so I bought it with much trepidation, but after talking to a lot of people about it. I was able to fondle one quite a bit before I bought a new one, so I had a feel for it beforehand. Yes it's plastic. For me, "plastic" has always been synonymous with "crap", but I've adjusted my attitude in that area because of this machine. Yes it's plastic (with a metal top shell), but it somehow still manages to be built like a tank. It's also very fast, which is nice for writing code while on the road. Overall I like it; I think it's good bang for the buck. I think they are doing ok for now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 5 13:50:50 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 14:50:50 -0400 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <201207051841.q65IfHXa13566052@floodgap.com> References: <201207051841.q65IfHXa13566052@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FF5E20A.2030508@neurotica.com> On 07/05/2012 02:41 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> The whole thing seemed a bit clunky and slow and not very useful to >>> me. I think they did coin the acronym PDA... and it did lead on to >>> bigger and better things. (like the Ipad). >>> I wouldn't say no to one if someone gave me one for my collection. (; >> >> Why was the Palm Pilot more successful than the newton? > > Others have pointed out the ease of syncing, but writing apps for the > PalmOS was much more straightforward than the Newton. ARM was a less > familiar architecture those days, NewtonOS was a bit esoteric in some > respects, and above all else the Palm Pilot *was smaller* so more people > were likely to have it with them. > > PalmOS was a lot like MacOS, had the familiar 68K processor backing it, > and didn't try to do "too much." As is usual, worse is better. Well said. This is the best explanation for PalmOS' dominance that I've seen. It all makes sense. I really should pick up one of the 68K-based Palm Pilots for some hacking. I heard (ages ago) that it's pretty trivial to get different code running on them. At that point it's just a 68K with a nice bitmapped display; have cross compiler, will travel. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 5 14:02:55 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <4FF5D3D1.6090506@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jul 5, 12 01:50:09 pm" Message-ID: <201207051902.q65J2tZd14942220@floodgap.com> > All that said, though, while I did have a new first-run Newton, I very > often wished it was faster. Most of my Newton opinions are based on the > MP2000/MP2100 machines, which were just plain amazing in nearly every > way...once again, given the limitations of the technology of the day. I have a 2100 and an eMate. I think they are beautiful machines. But I use my AlphaSmart Dana (PalmOS 4 in an eMate-like form factor) because it runs all my PalmOS software, I can write apps on it with Plua, and it even has WiFi, SD card slots and USB. And AlphaSmart has never skimped on keyboards, even though the eMate has a very good keyboard. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The optimum committee has no members. -- Norman Augustine ------------------ From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Jul 5 13:53:34 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 15:53:34 -0300 Subject: bitmapped computers - spectrum (was: Today, in the bus to work...) In-Reply-To: References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <201207040419.q644Jj81090406@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201207051906.q65J6Usg037217@billy.ezwind.net> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > The Spectrum isn't really bitmapped. IIRC you define up to 20? 8x8 pixel > tiles (one bit per pixel) and can draw them in place of characters (i.e. > at any multiple-of-8 pixel vertical or horizontal offset from 0) with the > same color and bright/flash attributes as normal characters. That was the > case in BASIC, at least, maybe you could do more in assembly, but I don't > recall seeing a frame buffer in the memory map... When the Spectrum came out, I had the impression that it was a text mode machine with redefinable characters like many of its competitors. Given that this was a popular hack to give the ZX81 "high resolution" graphics and the way color is controlled in 8x8 pixel blocks, this was a reasonable guess. But I learned otherwise a few years ago. The only hardware mode is a simple 256x192 bitmap starting at 0x4000 which is modified by a 32x24 attribute map at 0x5800. The model presented by Basic is what you described, but the model seen by assembly language programs is very similar to what the Mac had. -- Jecel From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Jul 5 14:06:13 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 16:06:13 -0300 Subject: Smalltalk history (was: Jobs - what's he done for us lately?) In-Reply-To: <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > I played with a pre-release Lisa (being used to develp Berkeley > SmallTalk); I never touched on after that. That is very interesting! I am rather familiar with the history of Smalltalk and was not aware of any connection between Apple the Berkeley. I had read that the Berkeley students had been given a copy of the HP Smalltalk to study and then developed their own version for the VAX and, later, for Sun workstations. Note that the language name has a lower case "t". For most languages this kind of thing can be debated, but while "Smalltalk size" is a valid expression telling you the number of global variables defined (2151 where I am typing this), "SmallTalk size" will get you an "Unknown variable" error. -- Jecel From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 5 14:16:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 15:16:56 -0400 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <201207051902.q65J2tZd14942220@floodgap.com> References: <201207051902.q65J2tZd14942220@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FF5E828.8040106@neurotica.com> On 07/05/2012 03:02 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> All that said, though, while I did have a new first-run Newton, I very >> often wished it was faster. Most of my Newton opinions are based on the >> MP2000/MP2100 machines, which were just plain amazing in nearly every >> way...once again, given the limitations of the technology of the day. > > I have a 2100 and an eMate. I think they are beautiful machines. > > But I use my AlphaSmart Dana (PalmOS 4 in an eMate-like form factor) because > it runs all my PalmOS software, I can write apps on it with Plua, and it > even has WiFi, SD card slots and USB. And AlphaSmart has never skimped on > keyboards, even though the eMate has a very good keyboard. I've seen the AlphaSmart word processor appliances, but never a PalmOS machine from them. Interesting! Their word processors use either 68EZ328s or 68VZ328s; they should be very easy to hack but I haven't tried it. Then you'd have a tiny battery powered 68K machine with a usable display and a good keyboard. I really should try that at some point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 5 14:18:27 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <4FF5E20A.2030508@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jul 5, 12 02:50:50 pm" Message-ID: <201207051918.q65JIR4i12779644@floodgap.com> > Well said. This is the best explanation for PalmOS' dominance that > I've seen. It all makes sense. > > I really should pick up one of the 68K-based Palm Pilots for some > hacking. I heard (ages ago) that it's pretty trivial to get different > code running on them. At that point it's just a 68K with a nice > bitmapped display; have cross compiler, will travel. >From a machine code perspective, the architecture is remarkably uninteresting -- which is, from a machine code perspective, exactly what you want. :) However, I was an early adopter of Plua, which is a port of Lua 5.0 to PalmOS. It runs merrily on 68K and ARM Palms, has a "cross-compiler" (disclaimer: I was the port maintainer for the Mac OS X Pluac) and even supports network access and other neat tricks. Its chief disadvantages are that it is slow compared to native code, more so than you would expect for a lightweight interpreter, and it does not transcend some of the limitations of PalmOS well (for example, individual variables cannot consume more than 24K or so of memory, leading to inelegant "paging strategies" for long strings and complex tables). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I think, therefore I'm dangerous. ------------------------------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 5 14:35:45 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AlphaSmart and Palm was Re: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <4FF5E828.8040106@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jul 5, 12 03:16:56 pm" Message-ID: <201207051935.q65JZjCW13107214@floodgap.com> > > But I use my AlphaSmart Dana (PalmOS 4 in an eMate-like form factor) because > > it runs all my PalmOS software, I can write apps on it with Plua, and it > > even has WiFi, SD card slots and USB. And AlphaSmart has never skimped on > > keyboards, even though the eMate has a very good keyboard. > > I've seen the AlphaSmart word processor appliances, but never a PalmOS > machine from them. Interesting! I think the AlphaSmart Dana is the best Palm device I've ever owned. Even though the classic Palm Pilots are much more portable -- I got a lot of wear out of my Zire 72 and did not completely replace it until I finally got an iPhone 3GS (now I'm all Android) -- the Dana is still very easy to tote and just does everything I need out of a small laptop. EudoraWeb suffices for basic browsing, you can find the Dana web browser circulating on some sites that gives you a big wide full-screen browser, I have my own Gopher client written in Plua, and then of course all those Palm games and the outstanding AlphaSmart word processor. Just plug it into the G5 over USB and the Dana emulates a keyboard, spewing the document into whatever program on the Mac I want to use. Add a backlight and an easily serviced rechargeable battery (ahem, Apple) that has a bay for alkaline AAs in a pinch, and it is indeed the best Palm device I have ever owned. My mother was so impressed by this I got her one also, and it has nearly totally replaced her old laptop. She plugs it into her iMac after church and dumps the notes into Microsoft Word. > Their word processors use either 68EZ328s or 68VZ328s; they should be > very easy to hack but I haven't tried it. Then you'd have a tiny > battery powered 68K machine with a usable display and a good keyboard. > I really should try that at some point. I can't imagine they are difficult to work on. Every AlphaSmart I've met was so well-designed and refreshingly open and serviceable that I would find it hard to believe they could not be hacked and reprogrammed easily too. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Si des purgamentum, purgamentum accipietis. -------------------------------- From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Jul 5 14:35:23 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 21:35:23 +0200 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> References: <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <20120705193523.GA27014@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 11:25:04AM -0300, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >I bet the build quality finish and durability aren't as good on that > >VAIO though... > > I want no VAIO on my life anymore. This is one of the shittest > computers I've ever repaired. Want a sturdy computer? Buy an IBM > machine. Ops, Lenovo :P Well, I'm quite happy with the IBM^WLenovo Thinkpads. My current laptop is a X220 and it is a really nice machine. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jul 5 14:57:41 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 19:57:41 +0000 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/5/12 1:46 AM, "John Many Jars" wrote: >On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Mark Benson wrote: > >> This is rumoured as being a TV as in the full 9 yards, not just a box >> for HDMI, with everything the current AppleTV has plus Safari, Apps >> etc. Basically iOS for the living room. >> >> I am skeptical. Then again I never thought they'd take on the record >> industry and succeed either, but then again a lot of that was down to >> Steve playing hardball. They don't have that anymore. > >They could always try another video-game system. Well, based on what >my wife uses her Galaxy Note for, they already have. (; > >I love the way folks are kind of accusing Microsoft of copying the >Ipad when Microsoft did tablets first (and they didn't sell). I guess >Gates/Balmer just aren't cool the way Steve was. (; I was an early adopter of the Tablet PC, first an Acer convertible, then a Fujitsu slate (that did yeoman's work for me in my Master's program). The battery life was OK, it was heavy... but IMHO its biggest liability - and the one that is likely to torpedo (or at least impede) the new device - is that the Windows PC is so embedded in Microsoft's DNA they will ship a substandard product before they will actually break with their flagship product's hegemony. The story of recent months/years is that the tablet is an increasingly successful form factor for an increasingly large segment of the consumer community for computer-based information technology. Many people just don't need a "Personal Computer". The PC form factor isn't going away soon, any more than the mainframe has, because it's the right tool for some people, e.g. the knowledge worker. For folks whose primary use of a "computer" is consumption rather than production, the tablet is becoming the tool of choice. IMHO -- Ian PS: Microsoft really dropped the ball on marketing the Tablet PC. I almost went to work for the person (Alex Loeb) who ultimately became the VP for Tablet PC - and she subsequently dropped completely out of sight, without even an company-internal "have a nice life" memo. From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 14:59:29 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:59:29 +0100 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <4FF5D6C2.2010306@neurotica.com> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> <4FF5D6C2.2010306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <52C3A759-B906-4947-81C7-4FD77BDB0D00@gmail.com> On 5 Jul 2012, at 19:02, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/05/2012 04:22 AM, Mark Benson wrote: >> The handwriting recognition was... inadequate (the cost of being a >> pioneering technology), they never sold in much volume (they were >> expensive and didn't have many applications), they were too heavy (a >> limitation of the technology available) and the screen was hard to >> read in some light or the backlight drained the battery (another tech >> limitation). The idea was sound, the execution not so much. It was a >> common problem at Apple back then. >> >> As a technology it was a good first stab, as a product it tanked. > If by "tanked" you mean "failed to be purchased by everyone who had > heard of a computer", sure. ;) No by 'tanked' I mean it really failed to sell (outside your particular clique) as far as I remember Apple sold way fewer Newtons year-over than they did Macs... when their market share was miniscule. > Damn near every technical person in my > company at the time had one. (that was a bunch) They were VERY popular > in all the tech haunts in my geographic area at the time (Washington DC > area). From where I sat, everyone seemed to have one. Granted that was > the tech crowd, but that's a lot of people. Yeah, but it was a *very* small crowd, doubly so at that time. 1996 was before every company had an IT manager, remember. Geeks like us, and I was still very much a game playing PFY at the time but I still fitted in the bracket, I think I was on my second self (with the help of my dad) built PC, still made up a pretty minor part of the population. Back then there were no more than a dozen folks in a school year of over 70 where I was that played PC games or even knew what a 'hard drive' was. Professionally speaking yes I suppose big companies were well into multiple generations of IT infrastructure but outside that widespread PC tech was only just hitting the ground. > It certainly tanked from the perspective of Apple trying to make it a > household thing for every nontechnical person to own (like the iPad is > now) and while it didn't meet Apples (unrealistic) expectations in that > area, but it's not like they didn't sell a shitload of them. They didn't sell a shit-load, that was the problem. They were too expensive for all but the most dedicated tech gurus and hot-shot young execs to want to afford and simply weren't useful enough to force marginal maybes to buy into them. > I've never been able to find sales figures for them, but I STILL, as recently as a > couple of months ago, see them popping up in the surplus market. It > takes a lot of sales volume for the surplus market to still be seeing > them almost fifteen years after their discontinuance. The reason they keep popping up is thus: They are as hard as all hell (very sturdy design!). My MP130 was third hand to me 6 years ago and still rocking, it had taken some knocks but they were cosmetic and it had been *used* a lot, you could tell from the finger-polish on on the case plastics. They are rare enough and good enough that they still fetch good money, especially the Strong-ARM powered MP2000 and MP2100 models. A lot of Apple enthusiasts will pay you half a limb for a good condition MP2100, they aren't that easy to find. The early ones are more numerous and not that great so people aren't so willing to pay. There are very few on eBay in the UK or US (comparative to the populations). I think your opinion of how well they sold may be coloured by the population you hung around in. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 15:02:54 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 21:02:54 +0100 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <4FF5DE42.7020308@bitsavers.org> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <20120705105316.J34140@shell.lmi.net> <4FF5DE42.7020308@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8B4D20EC-CDB6-4E18-91AC-4F5817DE6CD7@gmail.com> On 5 Jul 2012, at 19:34, Al Kossow wrote: > The first iPods only worked with MacOS. Sales didn't take off until > Windows support and the iTunes store. ... and USB docking support. Most Windows users resented having to fit a special PCI card just for their MP3 player :) -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 5 15:07:30 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: from Ian King at "Jul 5, 12 07:57:41 pm" Message-ID: <201207052007.q65K7Uef12910702@floodgap.com> > technology. Many people just don't need a "Personal Computer". The PC > form factor isn't going away soon, any more than the mainframe has, > because it's the right tool for some people, e.g. the knowledge worker. The downside, however, is that PCs will be harder to get and purchase, and boutique non-x86 PCs will all but disappear. My IBM server cost me north of $10k, and IBM wouldn't even sell it to me (I bought it through a reseller). I would shudder to purchase a modern zOS machine, and I fear something similar will happen to the classic microcomputer. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Justice is incidental to law and order. -- J. Edgar Hoover ----------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 5 15:10:50 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Newtons we have loved was Re: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <52C3A759-B906-4947-81C7-4FD77BDB0D00@gmail.com> from Mark Benson at "Jul 5, 12 08:59:29 pm" Message-ID: <201207052010.q65KApYZ13107268@floodgap.com> > They are rare enough and good enough that they still fetch good money, > especially the Strong-ARM powered MP2000 and MP2100 models. I got a steal on my MP2100. It came with the original box and all the cables, CDs, manuals, the machine (natch), carrying case and keyboard. I don't remember exactly how much I paid for it, but I know it wasn't over $100. Still, of the Newton machines, the eMate is more convenient and conventional IMHO. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is the business of the future to be dangerous. -- Hawkwind -------------- From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Thu Jul 5 15:21:28 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 21:21:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free for pickup AEG/Telefunken Terminal In-Reply-To: <002d01cd5ad7$34defd70$9e9cf850$@xs4all.nl> References: <002d01cd5ad7$34defd70$9e9cf850$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1341519688.5280.YahooMailNeo@web29102.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi Rik ! Though I couldn't find any pictures of that modell, but I'm very interested in it, as I already rescued quite some peripheral equipment from the TR-4 / TR-440 Telefunken mainframe era. So I'l like to add it to my Telefunken "family". I wrote my other Telefunken stuff to the list about it 2 weeks ago. Is the terminal still available ? Do you have a picture? I'm located in Aaken, Germany, very near the dutch border. Kind regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ________________________________ Von: Rik Bos An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Gesendet: 19:54 Donnerstag, 5.Juli 2012 Betreff: Free for pickup AEG/Telefunken Terminal I've a AEG/Telefunken M28-12W (1974) terminal, it's free but local pickup only. I'm located in the Netherlands.. -Rik From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 15:22:02 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 21:22:02 +0100 Subject: Newtons we have loved was Re: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <201207052010.q65KApYZ13107268@floodgap.com> References: <201207052010.q65KApYZ13107268@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 5 Jul 2012, at 21:10, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I got a steal on my MP2100. It came with the original box and all the cables, > CDs, manuals, the machine (natch), carrying case and keyboard. I don't > remember exactly how much I paid for it, but I know it wasn't over $100. I'm guessing that wasn't last week though. There's a similarly used but all original packaging, disks, cables etc MP2100 on eBay UK at the moment.. 109.99 GBP > Still, of the Newton machines, the eMate is more convenient and conventional > IMHO. Popular in education, I got to play with one when they were new. Kooky little thing, very direct precursor to the iBook (similar style, price and target market). -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From md.benson at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 15:22:36 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 21:22:36 +0100 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <201207051611.q65GBsWT14811180@floodgap.com> References: <201207051611.q65GBsWT14811180@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1B638BBB-2FAD-4342-B513-C60D489D6716@gmail.com> On 5 Jul 2012, at 17:11, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Sad, the (2007) R61i that got returned to me with a dead battery went >>> through 3 years of hell with a teenager and came out fighting, has a >>> missing key and the awfully slow hard drive got slung in favour if an >>> SSD but aside from that it's a champ. It even rubs Windows 8 pretty >>> well! >> >> I hear Windows 8 needs a lot of rubbing. > > Careful, it might go off. Or Steve Balmer might pop out and throw a chair at you ;) -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 5 15:31:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Smalltalk history (was: Jobs - what's he done for us lately?) In-Reply-To: <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20120705132617.F34140@shell.lmi.net> > > I played with a pre-release Lisa (being used to develp Berkeley > > Smalltalk); I never touched on after that. On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > That is very interesting! I am rather familiar with the history of > Smalltalk and was not aware of any connection between Apple the > Berkeley. I had read that the Berkeley students had been given a copy of > the HP Smalltalk to study and then developed their own version for the > VAX and, later, for Sun workstations. I don't have much of any details, but I can point you where to find out. My cousin, David Ungar, was involved in it, and in "Smalltalk on a Risc", while he was getting his PhD at berkeley. One time, when I visited him in Evans hall, they had a Lisa (with hard disk!, and twiggy drive (with the double set of access holes in the floppy to make it easier to put thumbprints on the media)). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 14:07:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:07:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II) In-Reply-To: <20120704195143.219460@gmx.net> from "Arno Kletzander" at Jul 4, 12 09:51:43 pm Message-ID: > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > (...) it displys TV-rate video on an > > > > internal CRT and photographs it. > > > > > > > > There's a colour fitler wheel (red, green, blue and a hole) so it cna > > > > print a colour inamge in 3 goes. > > > > > > (...) > > > > AFAIK mine only does NTSC-rate video (OK, for the pedants, RS170 rate > > video), there is certainly no itnernal framestore. (...) there's a disk > > with 4 filters (one clear, maybe just a hole) and a stepper motor to > > move them. There is some kind of control board, I seem to remember it's > > microprocessor based,. maybe even an 8080. And not much more. I don;t > > rememebr there being an internal NTSC or PAL colour decoder. > > So it must takes RGB component input (no decoder) and you have to feed > it a "freeze frame" video signal, i.e. keep the image content static (no > framestore) until the three exposures have been completed? > Yes. I got thtis thing along with soem I2S image processor/display units (high-end (for 1979 [1]) graphics systems for PDP11s and other minincomputers. It was possibly used for pritnign the output of one of thsoe. [1] IIRC the resolution is 512*512 pixels. The units have multiple 'byteplanes' of that size, the outputs of which go through programamble look-up tables, and are then added. further lookup tables the go between the outptu fo the adder and the DACs (8 or 10 bit per colour). There are lots of other feautres too, like an overlayed bitplane for text, historgramming of the displayed data and even somethign called the 'feedback ALU' where planes 0 and 1 becoem a 16 bit accumulator, you cna then dio the function Acc := Acc Op Another_plane. Where 'Op' is anything a 74181 can do, and the othee plane cn be arbritratily shifted around. Oh yes, and unlike the GPU in the Rpi, you get docs. Real docs. There's a _large_ binder of scheamtics... > > I also got what looks ot be a home-made bracket with it. 'Home made' > > meaning not a Polaroid product, I suecpt it was made in the workshops of > > the university I got this thing from. This fits in place of the Polaroid > > camera. It looks like it would have held a35mm SLR + motordrive (...) > > OK, so making a camera adapter in a "normal" workshop is confirmed to > be possible. Apart from interfacing the signals, it looks as if the most Yes. This is actually a fairly simple bit of metalwork. From what I rememebr it's basically 2 flat plaets at right angles. One is fitted to the front of the Videoprinte, the other sticks out at the bottom like a shelf to suport the caemra. There are a couple of little side plates to strengthen it and keep it rigid. It's all bolted together with allen cap-head screws. The 2 thumbscrees that fix it to the videopritner look to have been home-maed on a lathe. The knurling pattern is differnet to the official ones, for example. In the horzontal part of the bearcket there's a slot, I suspect a 1/4" BSW screw went through there and inot the tripod bush of the camera. > complicated part of it was somehow joining the camera body, the lens and > the distance tube in a mechanically solid and light-tight fashion I thinmk it took a noiraml SLR camera (I sould guess a Nikon or a Cannon, but I am not sure). I susepct it used a lens and extension tubes from that system, so the back of the lens to the film was easy to keep light-tight. There woas probably some kind of tebe fro mthe frojnt of the lens to the vertal part of the bracket, it might be soekthign as simple as a lens hood. The bracket is failrly deep from the lense hole ot the horizotnal part, I suspect it took a camera wit ha motordrive and that the mystery connector connected to the remote release of that. [Hacking an SLR onto this] > > Seems like a very sane approach. I'll have to see what I can come up > with, as I know for sure I don't have a broken SLR in my junk box... I have plenty of cameras that I need to repair, but none of them are electronic (by choice!). But unless you want soemthign exotic, broken 35mm electornci cameras are not that expensive now. You might even get a working one with an electronic remote release for not too much money. As for the lens, an elnerger lens would be a good choice I think. You would have to get ot make an adapter to fit it to the caemra, and get soem kind of extension tubes, buc such things do exist, or can be made. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 14:35:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:35:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 4, 12 05:41:48 pm Message-ID: > > Of course. You need to define 'personal' and 'computer'. > > Two terms that are easy to define to 80% accuracy, but very difficult > when used to split hairs of the type "machine X is/is not a personal > computer". Precisely. It's often poitless to do so as well. I think most people would agree that soemthing like, say, a BBC micro is a 'personal computer' (although not the first) and a Cray is not. But there are always borderline cases. > > > Do programmable > > calcualtors cunnt [1] for example? > > > > [1] No, not i nthe sense of incrementing a regiser :-) > > I would say that if a particular device is considered to be a > calculator, programmable or not, it's not eligible for moniker > "personal computer". A computer that can't calculate isn't much of a In which case, the HP9830 doens;'t qualify. It's called a 'Model 30 Calcualtor' in some literature. Point is, at the time it was called a 'calculator' for marketing reasons. It wasn't like a 'computer', it didn't need an air-conditioned room, raised flooring, a maintenance contract, an operating staff, etc. It was just soemthing you put on a desk or bench and started to use. Like a calcualtor. The fact that it has a QWERTY keyborad, an alphanumeric display and programs in BASIC would seem to make it a computer, though, by modern definitions. > computer, and likewise a calculator that can't "compute" is just a > calculator. IMO, the difference is intended use and especially the > UI. Calculators have numeric keypads and mathematical function keys, > and if they have alpha keys, those are often a secondary feature. > Computers tend towards toggle switches, simple keypads (0-F plus load, > run, etc), or full typewriter-style alphanumeric keyboards with > symbols commonly used when writing human languages, not just > mathematical expressions. Agian there are plenty of borderlien cases IMHO> > Right. Just because a different machine requires multiple cabinets or > load media, or only interfaces to the user via lights and switches > doesn't make it less of a computer, just different, and probably for a > different type of user/customer. Sure. There are amny machiens which can reasonably be claimed ot be part of the evolution leading up to the sort of machine that most people use today, and each is a valid machien to resotre, document, etc. It's pointless to argue as to which is the 'first personal computer'. > > It's much easier to define 10 characteristics of "personal computing" > and give examples of what may be the first appearance of said > characteristic than to nominate "a" specific "first persona compute". > I remember there was even an argument that the IBM 5150 was the first > personal computer specifically because it was call the the "IBM > Personal Computer" and was the first to use the term. That's clearly > easy to disprove (Apple wasn't even the first, but they use "personal > computer" or "personal computing" in their 1977 ads for the Apple II). I have an ideas that there was an advertising flyer for the HP65 (a machine which has a justifyable claim to the title of 'first handheld programmable calculator, althohgh the (much inferior) Sumlock Compucorp 322 predated it by a couple of weeks) which called it 'Your personal computing system' or something like that. it's certainly a calculator (key per function, no alpha at all), but on the other hand it is user-prgoramamble, it is 'personal' (it goes in your pocket) and it does do computations. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 14:13:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:13:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF4A1FF.6090002@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jul 4, 12 04:05:19 pm Message-ID: > Sure, that makes sense. But in this case, the information wasn't just > incomplete, it was DEAD WRONG. The imparted knowledge won't have to be > amended later, it will have to be un-learned. That's a big difference! Precisely. As I said last night, I have no problem with, say, Newtonian mechanics being taught. Yes, it's incomplete. It's an apporximation. But it's a veyery useful approximation, It's oen that you later learn _is_ an apporximation, but you don;'t ahev to unlearn it. I have no problem with DC circuit throry (all impedance is pure resistive) being taught either. It's also an apporximation (classically, yo ucan never get to the steady state in any cirucit, all circutis ahve some inducatance and capacitance), and you will have ot learn the AC theory later. But equally, the AC theory builds on the DC part, and if you do ahve a ismple DC circuit, the simple theory predicts results to the accuracy you can measure them. But it is not an 'approximation' tht the Macintosh was the first personal computer. IMHO there is no reasonable definition of 'personal computer' that makes that statemetn remotely true. It's just plain wrong. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 14:40:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:40:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF4BC4D.3080503@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jul 4, 12 10:57:33 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/07/2012 05:19, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >> First consumer machine with a 3.5" floppy (and/or no 5.25" floppy in > >> the era of floppies being standard)? > > > > The HP 150 came out two months earlier. > > ACT Apricot precedes even that, though not by much. The Wikipedia AFAIK The Apricot had no true text mode eithre. The Aprocot vidoe system is a bit strange. There's the normal 'CRT controller' to address the video RAM and generate timing signals. The video RAM is 2K*16 bits. some bits of which are used as attributes, but 11 bitsd (I think) are used as the 'chracter'. This addresses an area of the main DRAM which cotnains the character patters. Now, you can use that as a convnetional text display. Assume you only have 256 chracters, load the patterns into the right bit fo the main memroy, nad put the character codes in the 2K video RAM. But note that 11 bits is enough to have a differenc chracter pattern at each fo the 80*24 loctaions on the screen. So you can store a differnet chracter code in each location and then use the appropriate area of the main memory to control idividuyal pixels on the display. I think the Sirius/Victor 9000 does the same thing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 14:47:28 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:47:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704152035.L2587@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 4, 12 03:24:45 pm Message-ID: > I DID put "tamper-proof" in the obligatory quotation marks. > The 5150 did predate the Mac, and used the "tamper-proof" torx on the > power supply. That did necessitate an excursion to another room. IIRC the 5155 (PortablePC) used bristol spline screws in the monitor section. The tools for those are a lot harder to get here than Torx drivers. For some unknwn reason the Ferret (a combined breakout box, currnet loop/RS232/Centronics covnerter, strip pritner and EPROM programmer) is assembled with System Zero screws. Now those _are_ a pain... > > > > Manchester Mk 1? It had CRTs used for the main store, not video display :-) > > Wow! like to see that. I refer to Williams Tubes, of course. Actualylm I think there were monbitor CRTs to display the contents of the store (as an array of dots), but I couldn't resist giving that answer.... Yo ucna't se ethe origian becuase it no longer exists, but there's a reproduction of it i nthe museum in Mangchester. I've seen it (not in operaiton, they do run it from time to time). It's stretching the defintion of 'personal comnputer' of course... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 14:53:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:53:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704153002.H2587@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 4, 12 03:59:31 pm Message-ID: > Then the TRS80/Pet/Apple][ machines came out. I maintain that those three > were TIED for their relative timing. Different choices of measurement I agree. > For example, "First portable" is generally assigned to Osborne. But, the > 5100 is clearly earlier. So is the Antikythera, but y'all probably will I beleive there was an officil carrying handle that you could bolt to an HP9830. And the Philips P850 minicomputer optionally came in a tabletop cabinet with carrying handels. Are those 'portables'? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 5 15:25:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 21:25:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: from "Camiel Vanderhoeven" at Jul 5, 12 06:28:25 pm Message-ID: > All right, so here's the first few Pro related questions: > > 1. I don't have a keyboard or monitor to go with it. I see from the > manual on Bitsavers that the monitor gets a composite video signal, > and that the keyboard uses 4800-baud 8-N-1 RS423 signalling. Is the > protocol described anywhere? It's a plain LK201 keyboard, asused on VT220s, VT3xxs, etc. Are you sure there's no one somwhere in all thac collection. I am pretty sure I have a document giving the keyboard protocol if yoy need it. The monitor is a RS170 (US TV rate) composite one. Or RS170 RGB, sync-on-green if you have the 'extended bitmap option' and want to do colour (a mono moitor works fine with the extended bitmap option, you just get a greyscale, not colour). I am pretty sure pinouts of the DA15 keyboard/video connector are in the mnauls on bitsavers, or search the archives of this list for my 'universal rainbow monitor cable'. It's much the same. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 5 15:39:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <52C3A759-B906-4947-81C7-4FD77BDB0D00@gmail.com> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> <4FF5D6C2.2010306@neurotica.com> <52C3A759-B906-4947-81C7-4FD77BDB0D00@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120705133522.I34140@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Mark Benson wrote: > I think your opinion of how well they sold may be coloured by the > population you hung around in. We ALL do the "EVERYBODY [that I knew] used them!" "everybody started out on Apple][" "everybody had a doubler in their TRS80" "everybody uses a Mac" "everybody uses Linux" "everybody has an iPhone" From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jul 5 15:31:41 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 21:31:41 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: <20120705111337.C34140@shell.lmi.net> References: <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com> <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <1341490353.24578.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20120705111337.C34140@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FF5F9AD.8090502@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/07/2012 19:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > When "A pint is a pound, the world around" ceases to be true, But it's never been true. A pint here, and anywhere pints are used outside the US, is 20 fluid ounces, and a pound is sixteen ounces... > the world economies are in big trouble. Ah. Well. :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 5 15:46:26 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Newtons we have loved was Re: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: from Mark Benson at "Jul 5, 12 09:22:02 pm" Message-ID: <201207052046.q65KkQ4l13107402@floodgap.com> > > I got a steal on my MP2100. It came with the original box, all the cables, > > CDs, manuals, the machine (natch), carrying case and keyboard. I don't > > remember exactly how much I paid for it, but I know it wasn't over $100. > > I'm guessing that wasn't last week though. No, but it was only around a year or so ago, so it's still relatively contemporary. But I'm fully prepared to admit I was just really lucky. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Now and then innocent people are sent to the legislature. ------------------ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Jul 5 15:55:59 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 22:55:59 +0200 Subject: Free for pickup AEG/Telefunken Terminal In-Reply-To: <002d01cd5ad7$34defd70$9e9cf850$@xs4all.nl> References: <002d01cd5ad7$34defd70$9e9cf850$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <004f01cd5af0$980c5b90$c82512b0$@xs4all.nl> It looks that it's spoken for. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Rik Bos > Verzonden: donderdag 5 juli 2012 19:54 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Free for pickup AEG/Telefunken Terminal > > I've a AEG/Telefunken M28-12W (1974) terminal, it's free but local pickup only. > > I'm located in the Netherlands.. > > > > -Rik From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jul 5 17:09:07 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 15:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lenovo laptops, was Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF5E171.9060001@neurotica.com> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> <4576218013442375283@unknownmsgid> <0CF974DA-EF7C-4DE6-914F-5B2D299195E3@gmail.com> <4FF5E171.9060001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/05/2012 11:26 AM, David Riley wrote: >>> Lenovo Thinkpad laptops sadly are sliding towards 'plastic crap' and >>> away from the 'solid built IBM quality' end of the scale. >> >> For "everyday" work (i.e. light development work, web browsing, >> email, etc.), older Thinkpads are great and are pretty robust in >> the face of heavy abuse. Just drop something lightweight on them >> (I have a hard time counting modern Linux as lightweight, but some >> BSDs do the trick nicely). >> >> I can't imagine that Lenovo would maintain the quality that IBM >> did, but then I was never sure why IBM maintained that quality >> either. Perhaps it was because they were standard in large >> businesses that would shell out real money for PCs? > > I have a new Lenovo laptop. I've been accustomed to Apple build > quality for about ten years, so I bought it with much trepidation, but > after talking to a lot of people about it. I was able to fondle one > quite a bit before I bought a new one, so I had a feel for it beforehand. > > Yes it's plastic. For me, "plastic" has always been synonymous with > "crap", but I've adjusted my attitude in that area because of this > machine. Yes it's plastic (with a metal top shell), but it somehow > still manages to be built like a tank. It's also very fast, which is > nice for writing code while on the road. Overall I like it; I think > it's good bang for the buck. I think they are doing ok for now. What model of Lenovo laptop do you have? I have a Thinkpad T42 and it still seems to do things at a reasonable speed and is still in once piece. I doubt Windows 7 would be any good on it. I use Debian on it instead. One of the things that I like about the Thinkpads is that they have a middle mouse button. On most other laptops I've examined, you have to do something special like click left and right at the same time, or use a special shift key, or something goofy like that. Why don't other laptops have a middle mouse button? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Jul 5 17:31:11 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 19:31:11 -0300 Subject: Smalltalk history (was: Jobs - what's he done for us lately?) In-Reply-To: <20120705132617.F34140@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> <20120705132617.F34140@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201207052231.q65MVPHv043128@billy.ezwind.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > I don't have much of any details, but I can point you where to find out. > My cousin, David Ungar, was involved in it, and in "Smalltalk on a Risc", > while he was getting his PhD at berkeley. One time, when I visited him in > Evans hall, they had a Lisa (with hard disk!, and twiggy drive (with the > double set of access holes in the floppy to make it easier to put > thumbprints on the media)). Thanks for the tip! I will make sure to ask him about this on the next opportunity I have (probably not this year, unfortunately). He wanted to hire me to work on his Klein project back in 2000, but the end of the dot com bubble hit Sun very hard so it didn't happen. I see that, besides many other things, I missed some very interesting stories :-) -- Jecel From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 5 17:32:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:32:08 -0400 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <52C3A759-B906-4947-81C7-4FD77BDB0D00@gmail.com> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> <4FF5D6C2.2010306@neurotica.com> <52C3A759-B906-4947-81C7-4FD77BDB0D00@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FF615E8.2060105@neurotica.com> On 07/05/2012 03:59 PM, Mark Benson wrote: > I think your opinion of how well they sold may be coloured by the population you hung around in. Of course. Everyone's viewpoint depends on their...you know, view. I tend to not even acknowledge the existence of nontechnical people, because I find most of them to be mostly worthless. Most of them run Windows, if they have a computer at all, which means they constantly ask me to fix their broken Windows machines or other stupid stuff. Most of them don't understand what I'm all about (and don't care to) and have no interest in what I'm doing, and that feeling is mutual. (note that by "technical" I don't only mean "computer" or "electronics" technical) But do keep in mind...someone else with a very narrow worldview (I forget who) loudly asserted here not long ago that there are very few computer programmers in the world. That was demonstrated by statistics to be pure bunk during that thread, and I'm not talking about just "computer programmers" in the context of the Newton. Whether Apple liked it or not, they became a common tool of technical people, people who love technology to begin with, not every unwashed sod on the street. They were FAR ahead of their time, as is demonstrated by the wild takeover of the iPad. I'm willing to bet that no Newton ever found its way into a "sports bar". I wonder if Apple would've been more satisfied with the product's sales performance if they narrowed their ambition (yeah right) to just considering it a technical person's product. So...I'm interested to know if anyone has actual sales figures for that machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 5 17:34:07 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:34:07 -0400 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <8B4D20EC-CDB6-4E18-91AC-4F5817DE6CD7@gmail.com> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <20120705105316.J34140@shell.lmi.net> <4FF5DE42.7020308@bitsavers.org> <8B4D20EC-CDB6-4E18-91AC-4F5817DE6CD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FF6165F.6030808@neurotica.com> On 07/05/2012 04:02 PM, Mark Benson wrote: >> The first iPods only worked with MacOS. Sales didn't take off >> until Windows support and the iTunes store. > > ... and USB docking support. Most Windows users resented having to > fit a special PCI card just for their MP3 player :) Oh, that was when iPods became slow as pissing tar to sync, and became difficult to also use as a removable hard drive. That was what killed the iPod *for me*; I've had no interest in them since that "upgrade". It's not like FireWire interfaces are (or ever were) tough to find or expensive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 5 17:35:05 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:35:05 -0400 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <201207052007.q65K7Uef12910702@floodgap.com> References: <201207052007.q65K7Uef12910702@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4FF61699.3090203@neurotica.com> On 07/05/2012 04:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> technology. Many people just don't need a "Personal Computer". The PC >> form factor isn't going away soon, any more than the mainframe has, >> because it's the right tool for some people, e.g. the knowledge worker. > > The downside, however, is that PCs will be harder to get and purchase, and > boutique non-x86 PCs will all but disappear. > > My IBM server cost me north of $10k, and IBM wouldn't even sell it to me (I > bought it through a reseller). I would shudder to purchase a modern zOS > machine, and I fear something similar will happen to the classic > microcomputer. Fortunately, though, modern z/OS machines aren't difficult to find. They pop up on eBay all the time, usually at quite reasonable prices. Just don't get caught running that torrented copy of the OS. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 5 17:49:26 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:49:26 -0400 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <20120705133522.I34140@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> <4FF5D6C2.2010306@neurotica.com> <52C3A759-B906-4947-81C7-4FD77BDB0D00@gmail.com> <20120705133522.I34140@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FF619F6.8000005@neurotica.com> On 07/05/2012 04:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I think your opinion of how well they sold may be coloured by the >> population you hung around in. > > We ALL do the "EVERYBODY [that I knew] used them!" > > > "everybody started out on Apple][" > "everybody had a doubler in their TRS80" > "everybody uses a Mac" > "everybody uses Linux" > "everybody has an iPhone" The trouble here is, on this list there are a lot of people who Simply Weren't There and are either guessing or making claims of the success or failure of a given product based purely on whether or not they LIKE the product. NOTE WELL, Mark: I am *NOT* suggesting that you are guilty of this. I know full well that you know what you are talking about. There are plenty of people here, though, who really weren't there and had no way to know what was really going on. The only reason I (in particular) know anything at all about the Newton is because I bought one when they were new (an MP120) and later picked up a used MP2000. Most everyone in the non-suitly side of my company bought one, and most everybody I knew in the area bought one, spanning several companies and several social groups. This is the very definition of a "common" and "successful" device in my book. FROM MY POINT OF VIEW. (which is, of course, the ONLY point of view from which ANY of us can ever write!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 5 18:00:49 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 19:00:49 -0400 Subject: Lenovo laptops, was Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> <4576218013442375283@unknownmsgid> <0CF974DA-EF7C-4DE6-914F-5B2D299195E3@gmail.com> <4FF5E171.9060001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF61CA1.60907@neurotica.com> On 07/05/2012 06:09 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> I have a new Lenovo laptop. I've been accustomed to Apple build >> quality for about ten years, so I bought it with much trepidation, but >> after talking to a lot of people about it. I was able to fondle one >> quite a bit before I bought a new one, so I had a feel for it beforehand. >> >> Yes it's plastic. For me, "plastic" has always been synonymous with >> "crap", but I've adjusted my attitude in that area because of this >> machine. Yes it's plastic (with a metal top shell), but it somehow >> still manages to be built like a tank. It's also very fast, which is >> nice for writing code while on the road. Overall I like it; I think >> it's good bang for the buck. I think they are doing ok for now. > > What model of Lenovo laptop do you have? I have a Thinkpad T42 and it > still seems to do things at a reasonable speed and is still in once > piece. I doubt Windows 7 would be any good on it. I use Debian on it > instead. Mine is a V570. Core i5 (dual core) at 2.5GHz, 6GB of RAM stock. Running Linux, it positively screams, even when doing big compiles. > One of the things that I like about the Thinkpads is that they have a > middle mouse button. On most other laptops I've examined, you have to > do something special like click left and right at the same time, or use > a special shift key, or something goofy like that. Why don't other > laptops have a middle mouse button? I'm accustomed to hitting both buttons simultaneously so I don't much mind that. The V570 doesn't have a middle button. I agree that it'd be better with the additional button though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 5 18:22:08 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 16:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: <4FF5F9AD.8090502@dunnington.plus.com> References: <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com> <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <1341490353.24578.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20120705111337.C34140@shell.lmi.net> <4FF5F9AD.8090502@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20120705162032.A42959@shell.lmi.net> > > When "A pint is a pound, the world around" ceases to be true, On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Pete Turnbull wrote: > But it's never been true. A pint here, and anywhere pints are used > outside the US, is 20 fluid ounces, and a pound is sixteen ounces... Ah, so it's only the visiting Yanks that get served 16 ounces when they order a pint! At 20 ounces, I can see charging more than a pound. > > the world economies are in big trouble. > Ah. Well. > :-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 18:58:01 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 19:58:01 -0400 Subject: Newtons we have loved was Re: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <201207052010.q65KApYZ13107268@floodgap.com> References: <52C3A759-B906-4947-81C7-4FD77BDB0D00@gmail.com> <201207052010.q65KApYZ13107268@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Still, of the Newton machines, the eMate is more convenient and conventional > IMHO. Anyone know how to repair the eMate flex cable that gets damaged when the hinge spring lets loose? I've bent the spring ends over and added the washer to keep the spring from slipping again (the standard field repair), but I've got one or two eMates with the common symptom of "touch screen doesn't work" from spring damage and no replacement cables. Can one scrape back the insulation and solder another flex cable across the damage? Thanks, -ethan From pye at mactec.com.au Thu Jul 5 18:58:32 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 09:58:32 +1000 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <4FF5D3D1.6090506@neurotica.com> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <4FF5D3D1.6090506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <72C3B6FA-22C8-4179-B85B-493DCC0E7B1F@mactec.com.au> On 06/07/2012, at 3:50 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > A lot of people criticized the Newton because it was > bigger than a pocket sized...clearly not understanding the fact that, > for the technology of the day, making it as small as it was was nothing > short of a miracle. I wore a lot of clothes with very large pockets back when I was using a Newton on a daily basis.. Chris. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 5 19:21:56 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 17:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: <4FF5F9AD.8090502@dunnington.plus.com> References: <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com> <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <1341490353.24578.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20120705111337.C34140@shell.lmi.net> <4FF5F9AD.8090502@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20120705171044.U42959@shell.lmi.net> > > When "A pint is a pound, the world around" ceases to be true, > > the world economies are in big trouble. On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Pete Turnbull wrote: > But it's never been true. A pint here, and anywhere pints are used > outside the US, is 20 fluid ounces, and a pound is sixteen ounces... I should point out, that I was taught that in school; taught that it was a "British saying", and that "the world around" referred to when "the sun never sets on the British Empire". Q: Does being taught WRONG information have a bad effect? Q: Would charging a pound for a pint (of either size) help the overall world situation? BTW, I just received my "international edition" of 2ed "Art of Electronics". The paper is thin, but the printing is good. It does not have the TITLE PAGE! That, and the obverse have information that I find interesting about the publication history, copyrights, etc. Are those "international editions" AUTHORIZED reprintings? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Jul 5 20:05:23 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 21:05:23 -0400 Subject: Apple's Smalltalk-80 on Mac - Re: Smalltalk history In-Reply-To: <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4FF639D3.10809@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/07/12 3:06 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> I played with a pre-release Lisa (being used to develp Berkeley >> SmallTalk); I never touched on after that. > > That is very interesting! I am rather familiar with the history of > Smalltalk and was not aware of any connection between Apple the > Berkeley. I had read that the Berkeley students had been given a copy of > the HP Smalltalk to study and then developed their own version for the > VAX and, later, for Sun workstations. Jecel, Then you will be aware that Apple themselves made several releases of a mature Smalltalk-80 system for Macintosh. The project was led, at one time, by Harvey Alcabes. I still have his business card in that role, from when I met him at the Apple Developer Conference where HyperCard (then codenamed Silver Surfer) was revealed. --Toby > > Note that the language name has a lower case "t". For most languages > this kind of thing can be debated, but while "Smalltalk size" is a valid > expression telling you the number of global variables defined (2151 > where I am typing this), "SmallTalk size" will get you an "Unknown > variable" error. > > -- Jecel > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Jul 5 20:26:39 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:26:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: any interest in an IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: <4FF4B9FA.9317.2A8DF87@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1341461486.2055.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FF4B9FA.9317.2A8DF87@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Jul 2012 at 21:11, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> I payed 100$, and had to pick it up in Queens/Nassau. I'll take 50$ >> plus shipping, from 08758. It works, but there is noticeable screen >> burn even when off. I have some disks, and the 8" drive cabinet. > > Great box, too bad shipping cross-country is a killer. Indeed. On a related note, I have the floppy drive and keyboard for one of these, so if someone in the US happens across an orphan cpu and monitor for one, I'm still looking. I do have a full set of books and discs (possibly two complete sets, actually) so unless the discs have gone bad due to age, I should have enough software to get one up and running. There were also way more than 5 discs for these. http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/displayw/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jul 5 20:20:37 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 02:20:37 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: <20120705171044.U42959@shell.lmi.net> References: <8FBA625C-A5F4-4E37-814B-D4094BDA4BC9@gmail.com> <4FE9E837.9080006@neurotica.com> <4FEA9127.5020403@neurotica.com> <1341490353.24578.10.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20120705111337.C34140@shell.lmi.net> <4FF5F9AD.8090502@dunnington.plus.com> <20120705171044.U42959@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FF63D65.7080507@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/07/2012 01:21, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> When "A pint is a pound, the world around" ceases to be true, >>> the world economies are in big trouble. > On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> But it's never been true. A pint here, and anywhere pints are used >> outside the US, is 20 fluid ounces, and a pound is sixteen ounces... > > I should point out, that I was taught that in school; > taught that it was a "British saying", > and that "the world around" referred to when > "the sun never sets on the British Empire". The second part sounds plausible, but w.r.t. the first, even I can remeber paying only a small fraction of a pound (actually one and tuppence - or one shilling and twopence which is about 6p or 9 cents) for a pint, when I started taking an interest in such things. > Q: Would charging a pound for a pint (of either size) > help the overall world situation? You'd probably get even more drunks. That could be better than some activities, though ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jul 5 20:58:56 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 18:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> <1341502113.1185.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1341539936.19065.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Liam Proven Of course, you are free not to like it, but that does not mean that they are bad or there is anything wrong with them; it's just your opinion. C: Of course that's entirely true. But another point I'd like to bring out is that trackpads are way less strenuous on your muscles. You can tap the pad instead of clicking the mouse. You can drag your finger across the pad, you need to exert some effort to work that little button. It might be that I have poor circulation and am more inclined to want less stress on my appendages. It is a concern for everyone. I had 2 TPs in the past by the way. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 5 21:07:04 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 19:07:04 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? adaptor In-Reply-To: <4FF63D65.7080507@dunnington.plus.com> References: , <20120705171044.U42959@shell.lmi.net>, <4FF63D65.7080507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jul 2012 at 2:20, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 06/07/2012 01:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> When "A pint is a pound, the world around" ceases to be true, the > >>> world economies are in big trouble. > > On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> But it's never been true. A pint here, and anywhere pints are used > >> outside the US, is 20 fluid ounces, and a pound is sixteen > >> ounces... > > > > I should point out, that I was taught that in school; > > taught that it was a "British saying", I learned it as "A pint's a pound the world around" for the US and "A pint of water weighs a pound and a quarter" for the British version. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jul 5 22:03:39 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 22:03:39 -0500 Subject: Smalltalk history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF6558B.6030506@pico-systems.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 13:31:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Smalltalk history (was: Jobs - what's he done for us lately?) Message-ID: <20120705132617.F34140 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't have much of any details, but I can point you where to find out. My cousin, David Ungar, was involved in it, and in "Smalltalk on a Risc", while he was getting his PhD at berkeley. One time, when I visited him in Evans hall, they had a Lisa (with hard disk!, and twiggy drive (with the double set of access holes in the floppy to make it easier to put thumbprints on the media)). HAH! Small World! Long ago, Dave was a good friend of mine at Washington University, haven't seen him in a few years. I used to go out to Berkeley on experiments, and dropped in for a chat several times while he was at Sun in Mountain View. One time Dave took me down the hall and introduced me to John Ousterholt. I didn't really know who he was at the time, but I do now. Of course, everything they did there was WAY ahead of its time. Jon From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jul 5 22:07:57 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 20:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Zenith Minisport Message-ID: <1341544077.8758.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> anyone have a pinout for the power connector. I don't know what I did in the past, I know at least one of my 2 work. I think I put juice on the battery terminals to get a rudimentary display. Heard a buzzing too ick. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jul 6 00:05:25 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 22:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lenovo laptops, was Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <4FF61CA1.60907@neurotica.com> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> <4576218013442375283@unknownmsgid> <0CF974DA-EF7C-4DE6-914F-5B2D299195E3@gmail.com> <4FF5E171.9060001@neurotica.com> <4FF61CA1.60907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/05/2012 06:09 PM, David Griffith wrote: >>> I have a new Lenovo laptop. I've been accustomed to Apple build >>> quality for about ten years, so I bought it with much trepidation, but >>> after talking to a lot of people about it. I was able to fondle one >>> quite a bit before I bought a new one, so I had a feel for it beforehand. >>> >>> Yes it's plastic. For me, "plastic" has always been synonymous with >>> "crap", but I've adjusted my attitude in that area because of this >>> machine. Yes it's plastic (with a metal top shell), but it somehow >>> still manages to be built like a tank. It's also very fast, which is >>> nice for writing code while on the road. Overall I like it; I think >>> it's good bang for the buck. I think they are doing ok for now. >> >> What model of Lenovo laptop do you have? I have a Thinkpad T42 and it >> still seems to do things at a reasonable speed and is still in once >> piece. I doubt Windows 7 would be any good on it. I use Debian on it >> instead. > > Mine is a V570. Core i5 (dual core) at 2.5GHz, 6GB of RAM stock. > Running Linux, it positively screams, even when doing big compiles. What made you pick that line as opposed to, say, any of the Thinkpad models? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Jul 6 00:57:56 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 06:57:56 +0100 Subject: Megahaul on July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53B444BB26DE4008A1A5B24DDBCF81C9@MailBox> Yikes!!! Restoring that lot would keep me busy for years. Pity there is 2000+ mile reason I'll never see anything like that. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 05 July 2012 17:44 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Megahaul on July 4th At 12:48 PM +0200 7/5/12, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven > wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> >> Today me and my brother (truck driving license, no interest in old >> iron) had the biggest haul of DEC stuff I ever had (ex-collector >> moving to a smaller apartment). I'm picking up a second load in a week >> or two. Pictures at > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7816395 at N04/sets/72157630422540146/ Simply put, WOW! I wish you were local, I'd love one or two of those StorageWorks pedestals. That is one serious collection of VAX hardware! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 6 01:43:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 02:43:32 -0400 Subject: Lenovo laptops, was Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> <4576218013442375283@unknownmsgid> <0CF974DA-EF7C-4DE6-914F-5B2D299195E3@gmail.com> <4FF5E171.9060001@neurotica.com> <4FF61CA1.60907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF68914.6080808@neurotica.com> On 07/06/2012 01:05 AM, David Griffith wrote: >>>> I have a new Lenovo laptop. I've been accustomed to Apple build >>>> quality for about ten years, so I bought it with much trepidation, but >>>> after talking to a lot of people about it. I was able to fondle one >>>> quite a bit before I bought a new one, so I had a feel for it >>>> beforehand. >>>> >>>> Yes it's plastic. For me, "plastic" has always been synonymous with >>>> "crap", but I've adjusted my attitude in that area because of this >>>> machine. Yes it's plastic (with a metal top shell), but it somehow >>>> still manages to be built like a tank. It's also very fast, which is >>>> nice for writing code while on the road. Overall I like it; I think >>>> it's good bang for the buck. I think they are doing ok for now. >>> >>> What model of Lenovo laptop do you have? I have a Thinkpad T42 and it >>> still seems to do things at a reasonable speed and is still in once >>> piece. I doubt Windows 7 would be any good on it. I use Debian on it >>> instead. >> >> Mine is a V570. Core i5 (dual core) at 2.5GHz, 6GB of RAM stock. >> Running Linux, it positively screams, even when doing big compiles. > > What made you pick that line as opposed to, say, any of the Thinkpad > models? Because I needed a machine quickly due to a weird situation, it was there in the store, and I was able to get an employee discount on it. It's perhaps the only time I've ever purchased computer hardware retail, except for the Apple Store, which really doesn't count. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From iamcamiel at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 03:57:38 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 10:57:38 +0200 Subject: DECNIS Information Message-ID: Hi All, I was looking for information on the DECNIS 600 router, and found this hilarious review, no doubt generated by a highly intelligent computer algorithm ;-) " DEC - DECNIS 600 B1201-MN - DNSAF-MN - - Review by Christopher I was given DEC - DECNIS 600 B1201-MN - DNSAF-MN - item yesterday. It has worked exactly as advertised. Good unit. User friendly to the position that I did not want to look over any information to operate. Checked the distances with other items and feels to be very right. Beaming I made the buy. I would recommend highly this unit to you. " "User friendly to the position that I did not want to look over any information to operate" is what cracked me up. Cheers, Camiel. From reiche at ls-al.eu Fri Jul 6 04:09:00 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 11:09:00 +0200 Subject: DECNIS Information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201207060909.q66990cF000799@ls-al.eu> Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> Checked the distances with other items and feels to be very right. > > "User friendly to the position that I did not want to look over any > information to operate" is what cracked me up. > Well, I think it is a good thing as well you don't have to feel bad about all the distances. re, Sander From chd at chdickman.com Fri Jul 6 08:03:11 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 09:03:11 -0400 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven > wrote: > > All right, so here's the first few Pro related questions: > > > > 2. I found a box with three option cards: 2 x 000046 and 1 x 000401. > > What are these? > > cf http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt > > 000046 PC3XX-AA CTI Realtime Interface > 000046 PN: 50-15538 > 000046 Refs: EB-25824-18 > > The Real Time Interface (RTI) is interesting. It has 2 RS-232 serial ports, 1 IEEE-488 port, and 24 bi-directional TTL level I/O pins. These all exit the machine on a 62-pin D shell connector. This was typically used as the interface to the VAX when the Pro was used as a VAX console. -chuck From iamcamiel at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 08:17:28 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 15:17:28 +0200 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/6/12, Charles Dickman wrote: > The Real Time Interface (RTI) is interesting. It has 2 RS-232 serial ports, > 1 IEEE-488 port, and 24 bi-directional TTL level I/O pins. These all exit > the machine on a 62-pin D shell connector. This was typically used as the > interface to the VAX when the Pro was used as a VAX console. That does sound interesting. Especially given the GPIB -equipped measuring equipment I regularly use. Would you know whether pinout and other specifications are available somewhere? Camiel From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 11:24:20 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 17:24:20 +0100 Subject: Lenovo laptops, was Re: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> <4576218013442375283@unknownmsgid> <0CF974DA-EF7C-4DE6-914F-5B2D299195E3@gmail.com> <4FF5E171.9060001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4FF71134.5000401@gmail.com> >> Yes it's plastic. For me, "plastic" has always been synonymous with >> "crap", but I've adjusted my attitude in that area because of this >> machine. Yes it's plastic (with a metal top shell), but it somehow >> still manages to be built like a tank. It's also very fast, which is >> nice for writing code while on the road. Overall I like it; I think >> it's good bang for the buck. I think they are doing ok for now. > > What model of Lenovo laptop do you have? I have a Thinkpad T42 and it > still seems to do things at a reasonable speed and is still in once > piece. I doubt Windows 7 would be any good on it. I use Debian on it > instead. > Windows 7 runs quite nicely on a T42 so long as it has its full compliment of RAM. The main issue is that there are two alternative sets of Video drivers, both of which have different issues. I think I opted for the one that doesn't do full screen video. However I am now back on XP because of "licencing issues" > One of the things that I like about the Thinkpads is that they have a > middle mouse button. On most other laptops I've examined, you have to > do something special like click left and right at the same time, or > use a special shift key, or something goofy like that. Why don't > other laptops have a middle mouse button? > > -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From chd at chdickman.com Fri Jul 6 11:36:03 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 12:36:03 -0400 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On 7/6/12, Charles Dickman wrote: > > The Real Time Interface (RTI) is interesting. It has 2 RS-232 serial > ports, > > 1 IEEE-488 port, and 24 bi-directional TTL level I/O pins. These all exit > > the machine on a 62-pin D shell connector. This was typically used as the > > interface to the VAX when the Pro was used as a VAX console. > > That does sound interesting. Especially given the GPIB -equipped > measuring equipment I regularly use. Would you know whether pinout and > other specifications are available somewhere? > There is a little here. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/ There is more in a VAX manual that I can't seem to find. From wolfgang at eichberger.org Fri Jul 6 13:27:59 2012 From: wolfgang at eichberger.org (Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 20:27:59 +0200 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I may have a doc set for a Pro380 including the RTI which I can look for tomorrow. Ping me offlist so that I cant forget it while being in family action... Regards, Wolfgang 2012/7/6 Charles Dickman > On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven >wrote: > > > On 7/6/12, Charles Dickman wrote: > > > The Real Time Interface (RTI) is interesting. It has 2 RS-232 serial > > ports, > > > 1 IEEE-488 port, and 24 bi-directional TTL level I/O pins. These all > exit > > > the machine on a 62-pin D shell connector. This was typically used as > the > > > interface to the VAX when the Pro was used as a VAX console. > > > > That does sound interesting. Especially given the GPIB -equipped > > measuring equipment I regularly use. Would you know whether pinout and > > other specifications are available somewhere? > > > > There is a little here. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/ > > There is more in a VAX manual that I can't seem to find. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 6 13:49:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 19:49:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 5, 12 07:07:04 pm Message-ID: > I learned it as "A pint's a pound the world around" for the US and So enven then the US thought it was the world :-) > "A pint of water weighs a pound and a quarter" for the British > version. YEs, that;s the version I heard. Can anyone rememebr more of the metric conversion rhymes that were inflcited on the public about 40 yuears ago over here? The ones I can rememebr are : 'Two nad a quarter pounds of jam Weighs about a kilogram' And 'Three feet make one yard That's not very hard A metre measures three foot three It's longer than a yard you see' Not a rhyme, but something I still use to covnert temperatures from celsius to 'the understandable scale' (as one weatherman put it) is 'double it and add 30'. No, I don't use that whn calibrating a thermocouple, or for colour photographic procesisng, or.. but for the sort of temperatures used i neather forcasts it's accurate enough and is trivial to do in your head. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 6 13:40:51 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 19:40:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, was Re: ST-506/412 to IDE/ATA/SCSI/? In-Reply-To: <20120705171044.U42959@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 5, 12 05:21:56 pm Message-ID: > "the sun never sets on the British Empire". 'The sun never sets on tnhe British Empire becuase the sun sets in the west and the Birtish Empire is in the east' :-) > Q: Does being taught WRONG information have a bad effect? I think it does. I object ot having to unlearn anything. And as I have said before it is possible ot over-simplify things. I could never understnad the simple books on how telephone exchanges work. Only when I got a copy of 'Telephony' and acutally went through the schematics in there, relay by rely, did it all make sense. > BTW, I just received my "international edition" > of 2ed "Art of Electronics". The paper is thin, Excellent. You have some fun reading ahead :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 6 14:09:57 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 20:09:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: from "Charles Dickman" at Jul 6, 12 09:03:11 am Message-ID: > The Real Time Interface (RTI) is interesting. It has 2 RS-232 serial ports, > 1 IEEE-488 port, and 24 bi-directional TTL level I/O pins. These all exit > the machine on a 62-pin D shell connector. This was typically used as the > interface to the VAX when the Pro was used as a VAX console. I wondered if it was that board. I have one in one of my Pros IIRC the 24 TTL I/O lines are driven by an 8255, so yuo can only set the directions in blocks (You can set the driections of port A, port B, and each half of portC in the simplest case). And changing the direction will set all outputs to 0. Not my favourite device.. Is there any techncial infromation o nthis board anywhere? Software to drive it? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 6 15:00:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 13:00:40 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 5, 12 07:07:04 pm, Message-ID: <4FF6E178.17324.1523711@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jul 2012 at 19:49, Tony Duell wrote: > Can anyone rememebr more of the metric conversion rhymes that were > inflcited on the public about 40 yuears ago over here? The ones I can > rememebr are : > > 'Two nad a quarter pounds of jam > Weighs about a kilogram' I'd be interested to hear of simple rhymes for converting stone to Kg... --Chuck From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Jul 6 16:35:02 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 22:35:02 +0100 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 Message-ID: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> In the ; Ken Olsen Thank You Employees video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vDjbTuwLqA&feature=related I noticed this: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/flat-panel.jpg - the talk around this image is DEC World 1987. Of this screen grab I know: VSXXX-GA mouse, LK201-AA keyboard. Can anyone provide any more information please? Regards, Mark. -- Mark Wickens http://wickensonline.co.uk http://declegacy.org.uk http://retrochallenge.org https://twitter.com/#!/@urbancamo From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jul 6 19:17:40 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 17:17:40 -0700 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: At 10:35 PM +0100 7/6/12, Mark Wickens wrote: >video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vDjbTuwLqA&feature=related >I noticed this: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/flat-panel.jpg >- the talk around this image is DEC World 1987. > >Of this screen grab I know: VSXXX-GA mouse, LK201-AA keyboard. >Can anyone provide any more information please? Unfortunately I can't remember any details, I think I heard about it years ago. It looks a lot like the screen provided to the US Military sometime around 1992 as part of a 3rd party Sparc portable system though. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Jul 6 19:32:35 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 21:32:35 -0300 Subject: Apple's Smalltalk-80 on Mac - Re: Smalltalk history In-Reply-To: <4FF639D3.10809@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> <4FF639D3.10809@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201207070032.q670Wl64075342@billy.ezwind.net> Toby Thain wrote: > Jecel, > > Then you will be aware that Apple themselves made several releases of a > mature Smalltalk-80 system for Macintosh. The project was led, at one > time, by Harvey Alcabes. I still have his business card in that role, > from when I met him at the Apple Developer Conference where HyperCard > (then codenamed Silver Surfer) was revealed. I have the 400KB floppy disks of version 0.7 of that system. It actually has two different images: "Level 0" is a single file and could run on a Fat Mac while "Level 1" was split into several files which would have to be joined on a Lisa hard drive and needed more than 512KB to run. At one point Dan Ingalls needed a copy of this (though he had created it originally, he had lost his copies) and I tried to go from 400KB MFS disks to 1.4MB HFS disks (on a Macintosh Classic II) to 1.4MB FAT16 disks (on a Macintosh Performa 5215CD - don't ask me why that machine refuses to read old Mac floppies or why the Classic II can't itself understand FAT16 floppies) and then combine the files using a Mac friendly format, like StuffIt. Somewhere along that path some bits got damages (actually, the Level 0 floppy has bad blocks so I had only tried the other 6 disks). Someone else had a copy and a simpler way to send it, do Dan was able to add it to his "Smalltalk Zoo". Lots of technical details about this system are available in the "green book" ("Smalltalk-80, Bits of History, Words of Advice" edited by Glen Krasner), which like many other classic Smalltalk books can be found for free at http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks.html -- Jecel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Jul 6 20:16:54 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 21:16:54 -0400 Subject: Apple's Smalltalk-80 on Mac - Re: Smalltalk history In-Reply-To: <20120707010305.1AC451A4942@vps4.telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <4FF3C332.3080102@telegraphics.com.au> <95C52D82C5054EECA272792C3A649E91@hd2600xt6a04f7> <4FF4DED2.4010106@telegraphics.com.au> <20120704181857.D6573@shell.lmi.net> <201207051906.q65J6URu037216@billy.ezwind.net> <4FF639D3.10809@telegraphics.com.au> <20120707010305.1AC451A4942@vps4.telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4FF78E06.4010105@telegraphics.com.au> On 06/07/12 8:32 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Toby Thain wrote: >> Jecel, >> >> Then you will be aware that Apple themselves made several releases of a >> mature Smalltalk-80 system for Macintosh. The project was led, at one >> time, by Harvey Alcabes. I still have his business card in that role, >> from when I met him at the Apple Developer Conference where HyperCard >> (then codenamed Silver Surfer) was revealed. > > I have the 400KB floppy disks of version 0.7 of that system. ... I think I have the floppies somewhere too :) > > Lots of technical details about this system are available in the "green > book" ("Smalltalk-80, Bits of History, Words of Advice" Yes I owned that book, and "The Language and its Implementation". I used the Apple system for a while. --Toby > edited by Glen > Krasner), which like many other classic Smalltalk books can be found for > free at > > http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks.html > > -- Jecel > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 6 22:47:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 20:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120706204457.Y85320@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 6 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Not a rhyme, but something I still use to covnert temperatures from > celsius to 'the understandable scale' (as one weatherman put it) is > 'double it and add 30'. No, I don't use that whn calibrating a > thermocouple, or for colour photographic procesisng, or.. but for the sort > of temperatures used i neather forcasts it's accurate enough and is > trivial to do in your head. Damn! All this time, I've been multiplying by 1.8 and adding 32; no wonder I've been getting it wrong! In elementary school (5th grade), the teacher the book said, PI is about 3.14 or 22/7. The teacher insisted that that meant that it was about 3.14, and exactly 22/7. I got into a LOT of trouble for arguing. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 6 23:15:28 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 21:15:28 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120706204457.Y85320@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20120706204457.Y85320@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FF75570.12793.3173541@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jul 2012 at 20:47, Fred Cisin wrote: > In elementary school (5th grade), the teacher the book said, PI is > about 3.14 or 22/7. > > The teacher insisted that that meant that it was about 3.14, and > exactly 22/7. I got into a LOT of trouble for arguing. You went to elementary school in Indiana? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 6 23:28:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 21:28:15 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 5, 12 07:07:04 pm, Message-ID: <4FF7586F.7535.322E959@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jul 2012 at 19:49, Tony Duell wrote: > 'Two nad a quarter pounds of jam > Weighs about a kilogram' "A liter of water's a pint and three quarters." I found this interesting tidbit: "The legal standard English spirit measure is 25ml or 35ml. These are the metric conversions of the old measures of 1/6 gill or 1/4 gill (or 1/5 gill in Scotland). The gill is sometimes spelled jill. There is an explanation of the nursery rhyme: Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. Jack fell down and broke his crown and Jill came tumbling after. When Charles I scaled down the 'jack' (a two-ounce measure) so as to collect higher sales taxes, the jill, by definition twice the size of the jack, was automatically reduced also and 'came tumbling after.' " By what measure does one buy firewood in the UK? Is it still by the cord? --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jul 7 10:46:07 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 08:46:07 -0700 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <4FF859BF.5080002@brouhaha.com> Mark Wickens wrote: > video on youtube: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vDjbTuwLqA&feature=related > I noticed this: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/flat-panel.jpg - > the talk around this image is DEC World 1987. > > Of this screen grab I know: VSXXX-GA mouse, LK201-AA keyboard. > Can anyone provide any more information please? I don't know the DEC model number, but it used a plasma panel made by Planar Systems. My recollection was that the resolution was slightly more than 1024x768. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 7 10:43:31 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 08:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF75570.12793.3173541@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20120706204457.Y85320@shell.lmi.net> <4FF75570.12793.3173541@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120707083919.Q3490@shell.lmi.net> > > In elementary school (5th grade), the teacher the book said, PI is > > about 3.14 or 22/7. > > The teacher insisted that that meant that it was about 3.14, and > > exactly 22/7. I got into a LOT of trouble for arguing. On Fri, 6 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You went to elementary school in Indiana? California. Kensington ("suburb" of Berkeley) The real question is where did the TEACHER go to school. Once people learn that kinda crap, they go on to push it on others. When I was teaching "computer math" (beginning, mostly teaching what floating point is, etc.) I had a couple of students who ALSO had been taught "EXACTLY 22/7" (from other schools)! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 7 11:17:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 09:17:38 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120707083919.Q3490@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FF75570.12793.3173541@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120707083919.Q3490@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FF7FEB2.944.6EF2E4@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jul 2012 at 8:43, Fred Cisin wrote: > The real question is where did the TEACHER go to school. Once people > learn that kinda crap, they go on to push it on others. Indiana? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill But you're familiar with the phenomenon of "My teacher said it was that way and he's ALWAYS right." There's a definite payoff for that kind of attitude. I was once thrown out of class and blackballed from NHS for insisting that my high-school (PhD yet) chemistry teacher was wrong. Something about me not having the proper respect for authority... I have since learned the wisdom of Proverbs 26, 4-5. --Chuck From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Jul 7 11:50:04 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 09:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: <4FF859BF.5080002@brouhaha.com> References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> <4FF859BF.5080002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Jul 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 08:46:07 -0700 > From: Eric Smith > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Re: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 > > Mark Wickens wrote: >> video on youtube: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vDjbTuwLqA&feature=related >> I noticed this: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/flat-panel.jpg - the >> talk around this image is DEC World 1987. >> >> Of this screen grab I know: VSXXX-GA mouse, LK201-AA keyboard. >> Can anyone provide any more information please? > > I don't know the DEC model number, but it used a plasma panel made by Planar > Systems. My recollection was that the resolution was slightly more than > 1024x768. > Sure its plasma? Planar specialised more in EL and that yellow looks like EL to me (we used some Planar EL panels in the early 90s) Peter Wallace From richardswingwood at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 12:43:18 2012 From: richardswingwood at gmail.com (Richard Swingwood) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 18:43:18 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF6E178.17324.1523711@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF6E178.17324.1523711@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6 July 2012 21:00, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I'd be interested to hear of simple rhymes for converting stone to > Kg... > > --Chuck > Stones to kilograms (if you prefer a metric weight) Just multiply by six point three five oh two nine three eight! :) Richard From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jul 7 12:50:09 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 12:50:09 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF876D1.8080802@pico-systems.com> > Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 22:35:02 +0100 > From: Mark Wickens > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 > Message-ID: <4FF75A06.4000006 at wickensonline.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > In the ; > > > Ken Olsen Thank You Employees > > > video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vDjbTuwLqA&feature=related > I noticed this: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/flat-panel.jpg - > the talk around this image is DEC World 1987. > > Of this screen grab I know: VSXXX-GA mouse, LK201-AA keyboard. > Can anyone provide any more information please? > OK, that is almost certainly a Burroughs plasma panel, the orange color is a giveaway, also the date. The technology was partly pioneered by William Papian, who worked with Jay Forrester on coincident current core memory and then worked on gas display panels at Washington University in the 60's and 70's. One of the really unknown pioneers of the early computer days. As for a manufactured product from DEC, I don't recall such a model. Jon From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jul 7 13:24:28 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 11:24:28 -0700 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> <4FF859BF.5080002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FF87EDC.50201@brouhaha.com> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Sure its plasma? Planar specialised more in EL and that yellow looks > like EL to me My recollection was that DEC used a plasma panel, but I could be wrong. I agree that the color in the photo is consistent with EL. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jul 7 13:39:29 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 12:39:29 -0600 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <4FF75A06.4000006 at wickensonline.co.uk>, Mark Wickens writes: > Can anyone provide any more information please? , perhaps? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 7 14:13:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 20:13:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <20120706204457.Y85320@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 6, 12 08:47:45 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 6 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Not a rhyme, but something I still use to covnert temperatures from > > celsius to 'the understandable scale' (as one weatherman put it) is > > 'double it and add 30'. No, I don't use that whn calibrating a > > thermocouple, or for colour photographic procesisng, or.. but for the sort > > of temperatures used i neather forcasts it's accurate enough and is > > trivial to do in your head. > > Damn! > All this time, I've been multiplying by 1.8 and adding 32; no wonder I've > been getting it wrong! Yes, that; the exact conversion (as you well know), which is what I sue when I am doing colour processing, or settign up a thermocouple thermometer, or... The point is 'double it and add 30' is easy to do in your head. And it _is_ good enough for weather temperatures (which are hardly exact in the first place). > > > In elementary school (5th grade), the teacher the book said, PI is about > 3.14 or 22/7. Err, 355/113 :-) > > The teacher insisted that that meant that it was about 3.14, and exactly > 22/7. > I got into a LOT of trouble for arguing. 'And for that number We motals know as pi He proved threan-and-one-seventh Wsa a little bit too high' >From the Archimedeans (Cambridge University maths society) song. Heover , any teacher who doesn't realise that pi is irrational, or doesnt'; know what irrational means, shoudln't be in the job. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 7 14:21:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 20:21:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF7FEB2.944.6EF2E4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 7, 12 09:17:38 am Message-ID: > I was once thrown out of class and blackballed from NHS for insisting > that my high-school (PhD yet) chemistry teacher was wrong. > Something about me not having the proper respect for authority... One of my hobbies at school was disrupting lessons by asking nasty qeustions _on the subject of the lesson_. Point being had they kicked me out for doing that, my parents would have exploded with the school Seriously. I once walked out a physics lesson and said I would only return when the teacher had actually learnt some basic physics. That did not go down well. But, you know, I am still waiting for a defintion of a (scientific) measurement that does not involve comparison to a standard. -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jul 7 15:20:23 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 21:20:23 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF7586F.7535.322E959@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 5, 12 07:07:04 pm, <4FF7586F.7535.322E959@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF89A07.4040002@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/07/2012 05:28, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I found this interesting tidbit: > > "The legal standard English spirit measure is 25ml or 35ml. These are > the metric conversions of the old measures of 1/6 gill or 1/4 gill > (or 1/5 gill in Scotland). That's not quite right. When I was a teenager in Edinburgh, the normal measure in Scotland was 1/4 gill (just over 35ml). English measures were always smaller, usually (in my youth) 1/5th (1 fl oz, or 28ml), but later, especially in the south, 1/6th (just under 24ml). While a few places in Scotland adopted the 1/5th when the 1/6th became common in England, the 1/4 remained in many places until it became compulsory to use the metric measures. > The gill is sometimes spelled jill. There is an explanation of the > nursery rhyme: > > Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. > Jack fell down and broke his crown and Jill came > tumbling after. > > When Charles I scaled down the 'jack' (a two-ounce measure) so as to > collect higher sales taxes, the jill, by definition twice the size of > the jack, was automatically reduced also and 'came tumbling after.' " That one seems a bit mixed up. I've never seen the unit of measure spelt with a 'j' and neither has the OED. Both Jill and Gill are common forms of the girl's name here, so as they're pronounced the same, it would be reasonable to change the spelling for the rhyme, but not the explanation. I've seen "jack" refer to 2 jiggers, but both are fairly modern American terms, although it makes the explanation fit with a US gill (4 fluid oz). Doesn't quite relate to Charles I though, because an imperial gill has always been 1/4 pint and always 5 fluid ounces. A jack, however, is an antique term for half a pint in England, so it sort of works if the explanation of jack versus "jill" is AAF. I've obviously got too much time on my hands if I'm writing this stuff. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Jul 7 15:30:39 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 16:30:39 -0400 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: <4FF87EDC.50201@brouhaha.com> References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> <4FF859BF.5080002@brouhaha.com> <4FF87EDC.50201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FF89C6F.1010306@verizon.net> On 07/07/2012 02:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Peter C. Wallace wrote: >> Sure its plasma? Planar specialised more in EL and that yellow looks >> like EL to me > > My recollection was that DEC used a plasma panel, but I could be > wrong. I agree that the color in the photo is consistent with EL. > > there were two different panels. A yellow EL panel that was a CSS product and not sold much and a Neon orange also pretty rare that was a plasma type and was 1024 by 1024. I know the latter as I had one for a while to test and report on (I was a Digit in central engineering). Memory says the plasma was about $5K (1987 USD) for it, it could be hung off a VT241. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 7 15:35:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 16:35:20 -0400 Subject: DEC VRE01, was Re: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> <4FF859BF.5080002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4FF89D88.5050204@neurotica.com> On 07/07/2012 12:50 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote: >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vDjbTuwLqA&feature=related >>> I noticed this: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/flat-panel.jpg >>> - the talk around this image is DEC World 1987. >>> >>> Of this screen grab I know: VSXXX-GA mouse, LK201-AA keyboard. >>> Can anyone provide any more information please? >> >> I don't know the DEC model number, but it used a plasma panel made by >> Planar Systems. My recollection was that the resolution was slightly >> more than 1024x768. > > Sure its plasma? Planar specialised more in EL and that yellow looks > like EL to me > > (we used some Planar EL panels in the early 90s) This display is a DEC VRE01. Its resolution is the "standard DEC resolution" of 1024x864. It is a plasma display and has a BNC coaxial input that can be driven by a VCB01, VCB02 (as a grayscale device), or any of the DECstation/VAXstation frambuffers capable of generating 1024x864, and the VT1000/VT1200/etc X terminals. I have one of these that I purchased brand new from Eli Heffron's (now ELI Systems) in Massachusetts many years ago. I used it for a while on my VT1000 (before the it was destroyed by a lightning strike; the VRE01 survived) It is a good display with nice contrast and a very nice form factor. I still have it, and I am planning to use it on a VAXstation-II if I ever find a BA123 power supply. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 7 15:51:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 13:51:38 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF89A07.4040002@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF7586F.7535.322E959@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF89A07.4040002@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4FF83EEA.28725.169CEDD@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jul 2012 at 21:20, Pete Turnbull wrote: > That's not quite right. When I was a teenager in Edinburgh, the > normal measure in Scotland was 1/4 gill (just over 35ml). English > measures were always smaller, usually (in my youth) 1/5th (1 fl oz, or > 28ml), but later, especially in the south, 1/6th (just under 24ml). > While a few places in Scotland adopted the 1/5th when the 1/6th became > common in England, the 1/4 remained in many places until it became > compulsory to use the metric measures. It does sound a little too neat, doesn't it? But Charles I did have real revenue issues, so maybe there's something to it, although it seems more like something today's politicians would pull. But not all measures make sense. A long tine ago, an English friend referred to "a gallon of potatoes". That one left me scratching my head. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 17:37:23 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 18:37:23 -0400 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: References: <4FF75A06.4000006@wickensonline.co.uk> <4FF859BF.5080002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > Sure its plasma? Planar specialised more in EL and that yellow looks like EL > to me > > (we used some Planar EL panels in the early 90s) I've got a couple Planar ELT-320 terminals and what I think is an EGA standalone display. I agree - that yellow looks more like ELT to me than Plasma. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jul 7 18:19:32 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2012 00:19:32 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF83EEA.28725.169CEDD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF7586F.7535.322E959@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF89A07.4040002@dunnington.plus.com> <4FF83EEA.28725.169CEDD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF8C404.7010305@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/07/2012 21:51, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But not all measures make sense. A long tine ago, an English friend > referred to "a gallon of potatoes". That one left me scratching my > head. Perhaps they were mashed, really soft? ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Jul 7 21:27:25 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 19:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for a complete Tek Prism 3002 or just keyboard Message-ID: <1341714445.86184.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> send me e-mail From md.benson at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 06:04:46 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 12:04:46 +0100 Subject: AlphaServer 4100 Message-ID: <58EB4FCA-2126-46AA-929D-D6389C1021B3@gmail.com> Not sure if this is 'classic' enough but I figured there are a few people here who might know the system much better than me. I have a AlphaServer 4100 that reached me in slightly rough but internally clean looking condition, it's not been run in a few years. First time I powered it up it it seemed to run through the diagnostics fine on the LCD panel at the front and finished up sat at what I assume was the text that has been programmed into the panel from the SRM (it looked like a hostname or something similar). I didn't have a terminal on the machine at the time so the panel was all I had to go on. I had to leave it for a while so I switched it of and switched off the mains. The next time I fired it up it got some way through the diagnostics and stopped on a message related to testing CPU 3 (the last of 4 numbered 0-3) and seemed to stop. I left it while I grabbed a terminal figuring it needed diagnosing via the terminal read-out. I powered it down, attached the terminal and powered it up and... nothing. The LCD screen sits completely blank, the terminal doesn't display anything apart from dumping a few characters of junk when I power it off. I have tried the following: - Removed all PCI cards. - Reseated all the cabling to the PCI backplane and comm's (serial/parallel) board including the LCD display connector. - Reseated all the RAM and CPU boards - Removed all but 1 CPU and 2 RAM boards (in slots ME0L and MEM0H) - Added a second CPU in case it - Checked the control panel cabling to the LCD panel - swapped the installed CPUs around to test at least 3 in 1 and 2 CPU configs When powered on, the diagnostic LEDs on the power management board look like this (top to bottom) 0 = on - = off * = scan at 1 sec intervals 0 0 - 0 0 0 0 * * * * All CPU cards have the following LEDs displayed 0 - 0 0 As far as I can see 2 LEDs are lit on the PCI bridge card (in the main) chassis (DEC's design failure means you can't actually see these directly) 0 0 I have followed through as best I can the diagnostic procedures in the User's Manual and Service Manual and neither have yielded progress or any obvious sign of fault, aside from the fact that I can't *find* the LEDs that are supposed to indicate 'POWER_FAN_OK' and 'TEMP_OK' on the PCI bridge adapter. If they are there they aren't on but I've no idea a WHERE they are. All three main fans are operating and seem to be shifting plenty of air, as are the CPU fans on the installed CPU cards. Other things that should be mentioned are the PSUs emit a constant 'bubbling' humming noise, but the power management board seems to thing they are fine, I'm a bit skeptical. I also had one PSU blow an input filter cap inside the mains input socket which was a straightforward fix and was replaced. Basically, I don't know the machine well enough to know what it might be. Any help appreciated. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Jul 8 08:57:35 2012 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 09:57:35 -0400 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF8C404.7010305@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF7586F.7535.322E959@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF89A07.4040002@dunnington.plus.com> <4FF83EEA.28725.169CEDD@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF8C404.7010305@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: potato salad from/for a deli comes in gallons also The other Bob -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2012 7:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi and America, On 07/07/2012 21:51, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But not all measures make sense. A long tine ago, an English friend > referred to "a gallon of potatoes". That one left me scratching my > head. Perhaps they were mashed, really soft? ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 8 09:26:26 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2012 07:26:26 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FF8C404.7010305@dunnington.plus.com>, Message-ID: <4FF93622.6433.1358B2@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jul 2012 at 9:57, Bob Bradlee wrote: > potato salad from/for a deli comes in gallons also In the US we often sell backberries, strawberries and other small fruit by the pint (also the flat, which is 8 dry quarts or two dry gallons). We also sell potatoes by the bushel, which is 8 dry gallons. --Chuck From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 09:31:23 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:31:23 +0200 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF83EEA.28725.169CEDD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF7586F.7535.322E959@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF89A07.4040002@dunnington.plus.com> <4FF83EEA.28725.169CEDD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But not all measures make sense. A long tine ago, an English friend > referred to "a gallon of potatoes". That one left me scratching my > head. The classic Dutch measure for potatoes is called "mud", from the Latin "modius". The Latin modius was 8.75 liters, or 2.3 gallons. The Dutch mud was around 110 liters, or 29 gallons (it varied according to locality and over time), whereas the Flemish mud was around 640 liters (170 gallons). To measure potatoes, they used a crate that could hold one mud. Eventually, people realised that it made more sense to measure potatoes by weight, so a mud of potatoes became 70 kilograms of potatoes rather than 100 liters of potatoes. I bet the same thing happened in England. Camiel. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 10:00:12 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 17:00:12 +0200 Subject: Philips P800 progress... Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I'm making some good progress with the Philips P800 minicomputers. I'm anxious to get an operating system running on them, and lack of working disk drives (I haven't been able to get one of the X1215 cartridge disc drives going yet), has pushed me in a somewhat different direction. I found an image of an X1215 disk pack containing a DOS version 5 installation on Theo Engel's website. I have implemented a very basic X1215 emulator in an FPGA PCIe card. Together with a small piece of software, and a cable with the necessary level converters, the emulator presents the X1215 disk images to the disk controller in the P800. The software is responsible for loading the image into the FPGA's memory buffer one track at a time. This now works to the point where the initial part of the IPL works correctly. Four sectors are read from disk, after which the P800 displays a "MONITOR?" prompt. After typing "DOM", there is another flurry of disk activity, then nothing. No "** DOS 05 **" banner. I noticed that the disk emulator never asks for anything other than track 0, so there is probably an error in the implementation of the SEEK command. To be continued... From shumaker at att.net Sun Jul 8 11:01:30 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2012 12:01:30 -0400 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF7586F.7535.322E959@cclist.sydex.com> <4FF89A07.4040002@dunnington.plus.com> <4FF83EEA.28725.169CEDD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FF9AEDA.3000208@att.net> another one that is totally misused these days is vessel tonnage. The origin of "tonnage" is fascinating. steve On 7/8/2012 10:31 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> But not all measures make sense. A long tine ago, an English friend >> referred to "a gallon of potatoes". That one left me scratching my >> head. >> > The classic Dutch measure for potatoes is called "mud", from the Latin > "modius". The Latin modius was 8.75 liters, or 2.3 gallons. The Dutch > mud was around 110 liters, or 29 gallons (it varied according to > locality and over time), whereas the Flemish mud was around 640 liters > (170 gallons). To measure potatoes, they used a crate that could hold > one mud. Eventually, people realised that it made more sense to > measure potatoes by weight, so a mud of potatoes became 70 kilograms > of potatoes rather than 100 liters of potatoes. > > I bet the same thing happened in England. > > Camiel. > > From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jul 8 13:13:56 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2012 13:13:56 -0500 Subject: DEC Flat Panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF9CDE4.10802@pico-systems.com> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 11:24:28 -0700 From: Eric Smith To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 Message-ID: <4FF87EDC.50201 at brouhaha.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > Sure its plasma? Planar specialised more in EL and that yellow looks > > like EL to me > > My recollection was that DEC used a plasma panel, but I could be wrong. > I agree that the color in the photo is consistent with EL. Wow, you could be right, I'd completely forgotten about Planar! Jon From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jul 8 15:55:30 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2012 16:55:30 -0400 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> >Liam Proven wrote: >>On 1 July 2012 23:03, Sander Reiche wrote: > > >>Hi all, >> >>I would just like to inform you guys, if you haven't read or heard >>about it, is that my entry being running an actual MicroPDP-11/83 >>online 24/7 with 2.11BSD on the internet, is now up. Sure, there are >>still some minor things to sort out (like the order of name resolving >>in libc apparently :)) and probably some other stuff, but I already >>have 30 registered users and some of 'm are RPGing away in old skool >>Zork :) >>If you want to join in on the fun; http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/retro2012.html >> >> > >Hey, cool. Thanks for that. > >I wonder... I have a couple of long-term "projects" that might count... > > Would anyone be interested in a variant of KED which manages lines different from 24 and columns different from 80 / 132? It probably will not be ready before the end of July. For those of you who are not familiar, KED runs under RT-11 and RSTS/E and is a screen editor. I thought it would be great to have a variant of KED which handles the DEC standard widths of 80 /132 columns, but with up to 48 lines which are available on a VT420. Actually, I guess there was a bit of cheating since up to 60 lines are supported - which is what Ersatz-11 supports. I realized only recently that "terminals" which run with widths that are NOT 80 /132 characters might even be available for testing. This is a plug for Ersatz-11 which already supports terminals of any width up to 255 columns and vertical lines counts up to 60 lines. Because I have been so DECified, column widths other than 80 / 132 seemed - well almost beyond thinking about. Now that I have run a few tests with Ersatz-11, this is a challenge worth some effort. Jerome Fine From wheagy at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 16:00:12 2012 From: wheagy at gmail.com (Win Heagy) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 17:00:12 -0400 Subject: Lisa Experts: Lisa 1.8A power supply test? Message-ID: Can anyone recommend a quick (safe) way to test a Lisa 1.8 amp power supply outside of the Lisa chassis? It appears that something (maybe pin X) needs to be jumped to make some of the power supply function outside of the Lisa? The only pin I currently get a reading from is pin 20 (~5.62v) which appears correct. I'd like to test more of the supply, if possible, prior to powering up the Lisa. Pointers appreciated. http://imgur.com/idthc http://imgur.com/PcFF6 Thanks, Win From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 8 16:10:30 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2012 14:10:30 -0700 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> References: , , <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 July 2012 23:03, Sander Reiche wrote: > ...and probably some other stuff, but I already have 30 registered > users and some of 'm are RPGing away in old skool Zork :) You're not really old school unless the only thing that comes to mind when the term "RPG" is used is "what goes in column 1?" --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jul 8 17:00:47 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 00:00:47 +0200 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120709000047.42e0cff3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:59:38 -0400 Ethan Dicks wrote: > I think there was some discussion on this list a while back about a > DIY microcontroller-based DEC LK2xx-to-PS/2 keyboard adapter http://www.kbdbabel.org/ has several converters for different keyboards. LKx01 to PS/2 and vice versa is here: http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-ps2-dec/ http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-lk-ps2/ -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 18:35:02 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 18:35:02 -0500 Subject: HP1630D, IBM "M" keyboards, PRO 350 or 380 Message-ID: My sons are helping me clean out one of my 25 foot storage lockers. I knew there was a little computer in this one, but it looks like about 1/3 computer items. Today I found two HP1630D logic analyzers, one of which has 7 pods. 4 IBM "M" keyboards, maybe 5 or 6 caps missing. PRO 350 or 380 missing cover, has RX50. I'll try to look at it tomorrow. I do have other 350 and 380 units and parts. Feel free to contact me off list if you have any interest. Thanks, Paul From RichA at vulcan.com Sun Jul 8 20:11:09 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 01:11:09 +0000 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B692EF@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 2:11 PM > On 1 July 2012 23:03, Sander Reiche > wrote: >> ...and probably some other stuff, but I already have 30 registered >> users and some of 'm are RPGing away in old skool Zork :) > You're not really old school unless the only thing that comes to mind > when the term "RPG" is used is "what goes in column 1?" You're also not really old school unless the ZORK you're running requires an MDL interpreter. Rich Alderson, Sr. Curator Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Jul 8 21:27:11 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 19:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which (Northstar?) computer used the Fujitsu M2551A 360k floppy drive? Message-ID: <1341800831.46466.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have one From iamcamiel at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 05:52:43 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 12:52:43 +0200 Subject: Lisa Experts: Lisa 1.8A power supply test? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000301cd5dc0$f859a160$e90ce420$@gmail.com> Hi Win, The "power on" signal (X) is driven by a 7417 (open collector buffer), with a pull-up resistor. The 7417 in turn is driven by the COPS 421 microcontroller (which implements the soft power switch among other functions). I'm not sure whether "power" on is presented by a logic "1" or "0", but you should be able to turn the power supply on by connecting that signal either to ground or to the +5V standby power. Neither should harm the power supply. Camiel. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Win Heagy Sent: zondag 8 juli 2012 23:00 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Lisa Experts: Lisa 1.8A power supply test? Can anyone recommend a quick (safe) way to test a Lisa 1.8 amp power supply outside of the Lisa chassis? It appears that something (maybe pin X) needs to be jumped to make some of the power supply function outside of the Lisa? The only pin I currently get a reading from is pin 20 (~5.62v) which appears correct. I'd like to test more of the supply, if possible, prior to powering up the Lisa. Pointers appreciated. http://imgur.com/idthc http://imgur.com/PcFF6 Thanks, Win From reiche at ls-al.eu Mon Jul 9 08:29:21 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 15:29:21 +0200 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki Message-ID: <201207091329.q69DTLsH022205@ls-al.eu> Hi all, I responded to a post on the SimH mailinglist, asking about why there was no PDP-11 Wiki where bits and pieces or whole articles and papers could be found, concerning the PDP-11. I thought it was a good question, considering I love the Richard's Terminal Wiki out there. So I quickly installed one and it is in pristine vanilla state at the moment. I can't be bothered with filling it with actual content, as I am still a total and complete noob on PDP-11's but will contribute whenever and where-ever I can. My job will be moderating the stuff for the time being. Have at it people! http://pdp-11.ls-al.eu re, Sander From reiche at ls-al.eu Mon Jul 9 08:51:09 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 15:51:09 +0200 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: <201207091329.q69DTLsH022205@ls-al.eu> References: <201207091329.q69DTLsH022205@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <201207091351.q69Dp9Hx031514@ls-al.eu> Sander Reiche wrote: > Hi all, > > I responded to a post on the SimH mailinglist, asking about why > there was no PDP-11 Wiki where bits and pieces or whole articles > and papers could be found, concerning the PDP-11. > > I thought it was a good question, considering I love the Richard's > Terminal Wiki out there. > > So I quickly installed one and it is in pristine vanilla state at > the moment. I can't be bothered with filling it with actual content, > as I am still a total and complete noob on PDP-11's but will > contribute whenever and where-ever I can. > > My job will be moderating the stuff for the time being. > > Have at it people! > > http://pdp-11.ls-al.eu > Seems I was too quick to rush to the conclusion that something like this wasn't already setup somewhere. Mark Benson's http://wiki.dectec.info seems to be the legitimate PDP-11 Wiki! :) re, Sander From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Jul 9 09:17:51 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 10:17:51 -0400 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> On 7/8/2012 5:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You're not really old school unless the only thing that comes to mind > when the term "RPG" is used is "what goes in column 1?" Is this a D&D reference? Keith From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Jul 9 09:26:38 2012 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 09:26:38 -0500 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> References: , , <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> Message-ID: <30DC112F-8DF6-458E-965B-B16B022634A9@lunar-tokyo.net> On Jul 9, 2012, at 9:17 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 7/8/2012 5:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> You're not really old school unless the only thing that comes to mind >> when the term "RPG" is used is "what goes in column 1?" > > Is this a D&D reference? No, but it's my understanding that their working conditions were not unlike that of slaves chained to oars rowing a ship. I guess you could say that was a sort of mobile dungeon? I dunno about the dragon part. Maybe the supervisors? From md.benson at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 09:31:25 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 15:31:25 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: <201207091351.q69Dp9Hx031514@ls-al.eu> References: <201207091329.q69DTLsH022205@ls-al.eu> <201207091351.q69Dp9Hx031514@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <6527724523490428800@unknownmsgid> On 9 Jul 2012, at 14:55, Sander Reiche wrote: > Sander Reiche wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I responded to a post on the SimH mailinglist, asking about why >> there was no PDP-11 Wiki where bits and pieces or whole articles >> and papers could be found, concerning the PDP-11. >> >> I thought it was a good question, considering I love the Richard's >> Terminal Wiki out there. >> >> So I quickly installed one and it is in pristine vanilla state at >> the moment. I can't be bothered with filling it with actual content, >> as I am still a total and complete noob on PDP-11's but will >> contribute whenever and where-ever I can. >> >> My job will be moderating the stuff for the time being. >> >> Have at it people! >> >> http://pdp-11.ls-al.eu >> > > Seems I was too quick to rush to the conclusion that something like > this wasn't already setup somewhere. Mark Benson's http://wiki.dectec.info > seems to be the legitimate PDP-11 Wiki! :) Jeesh I wouldn't say 'legitimate', it's thus far empty! I am very keen to centralise all the information about DEC hardware in one place though, hence why I set it up. I hadn't got around to publicising it uet as I didn't want to get everyone's attention with what's basically an empty shell. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 9 09:37:25 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 07:37:25 -0700 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> References: , <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4FFA8A35.15825.118431@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jul 2012 at 10:17, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 7/8/2012 5:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > You're not really old school unless the only thing that comes to > > mind when the term "RPG" is used is "what goes in column 1?" > > Is this a D&D reference? No--it refers to the programming language RPG, which mandated that fields for statement types be in certain columns. Colum 1, for example, used "D" to specify a data element declaration and "A" to specify computational statements. There were other characters for, say, print formatting. Drum cards were a necessity when punching. --Chuck From iamcamiel at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 09:40:10 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 16:40:10 +0200 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> References: <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: >> You're not really old school unless the only thing that comes to mind >> when the term "RPG" is used is "what goes in column 1?" > > > Is this a D&D reference? Does the following look like D&D to you? F*************************************************************** F* THIS PROGRAM READS THE CONTENTS OF AN INVOICE HEADER FILE F* AND PRINTS THE INVOICES PROCESSED FOR THE DATE SET IN THE F* LOCAL DATA AREA. THERE ARE LEVEL BREAKS AND TOTALS FOR F* EACH STORE. F*************************************************************** F* FINVHDR IP F 62 DISK FPRINTER O F 132 OF PRINTER IINVHDR NS 01 1NC I 1 3 STORE L1 I 4 13 INVNO I 14 20 CUSTNO I 21 45 STNAM I 46 53 INVDAT I 54 622TOTINV I UDS I 1 8 RPTDAT C 01 INVDAT COMP RPTDAT 11 C 01 11 ADD TOTINV L1TOT 92 C 01 11 ADD TOTINV LRTOT 92 OPRINTER H 101 1P O OR OF O PAGE Z 106 O 102 'PAGE' O 59 'VERY BIG' O 72 'STORES, INC.' O UDATE Y 17 O 8 'RUN DATE' O H 1 1P O OR OF O 73 'DAILY SALES BY STORE' O H 2 1P O OR OF O RPTDAT 83 O 63 'FOR DATE:' O H 1 1P O OR OF O 6 'STORE' O 18 'INVOICE' O 28 'CUSTOMER' O 58 'CUSTOMER' O 78 'INVOICE' O H 2 1P O OR OF O 6 'NUMBER' O 18 'NUMBER' O 28 'NUMBER' O 58 'NAME' O 78 'TOTAL' O D 0 L1 O STORE 6 O D 1 01 11 O INVNO 18 O CUSTNO 28 O STNAM 58 O TOTINV1B 78 O T 1 L1 O 45 'STORE TOTAL...' O L1TOT 1B 78 O T 1 LR O 45 'GRAND TOTAL...' O LRTOT 1 78 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 9 09:44:01 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 07:44:01 -0700 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <30DC112F-8DF6-458E-965B-B16B022634A9@lunar-tokyo.net> References: , <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net>, <30DC112F-8DF6-458E-965B-B16B022634A9@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <4FFA8BC1.23581.17903A@cclist.sydex.com> > On Jul 9, 2012, at 9:17 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > > Is this a D&D reference? The "99 Bottles" web site has an RPG II version: http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-rpg-ii-1686.html But I was thinking of 1401 RPG, an earlier version, but similar. Yes, people made their living programming stuff like this at one time. Real "old school". --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 10:16:29 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 10:16:29 -0500 Subject: HP1630D, IBM "M" keyboards, PRO 350 or 380 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry Everyone, Located in Illinois, 61853 Paul On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 6:35 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > My sons are helping me clean out one of my 25 foot storage lockers. I > knew there was a little computer in this one, but it looks like about > 1/3 computer items. > > Today I found two HP1630D logic analyzers, one of which has 7 pods. > > 4 IBM "M" keyboards, maybe 5 or 6 caps missing. > > PRO 350 or 380 missing cover, has RX50. I'll try to look at it > tomorrow. I do have other 350 and 380 units and parts. > > Feel free to contact me off list if you have any interest. > > Thanks, Paul From reiche at ls-al.eu Mon Jul 9 10:28:59 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 17:28:59 +0200 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <4FFA8BC1.23581.17903A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> <30DC112F-8DF6-458E-965B-B16B022634A9@lunar-tokyo.net> <4FFA8BC1.23581.17903A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201207091528.q69FSxjA017143@ls-al.eu> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > But I was thinking of 1401 RPG, an earlier version, but similar. > > Yes, people made their living programming stuff like this at one > time. Real "old school". > So when is your 1401 online so we can RPG on it? :) re, Sander From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 9 10:38:16 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 08:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> References: , , <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> > > You're not really old school unless the only thing that comes to mind > > when the term "RPG" is used is "what goes in column 1?" On Mon, 9 Jul 2012, Keith Monahan wrote: > Is this a D&D reference? What is D&D? Is that a debugger for Report Program Generator messes? S'posedly, there is even a Windoze "WINRPG"! WHY wasn't the RPG STD cured and stamped out in 1959? Instead, it spread and spawned RPG II ten years later. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 9 10:41:53 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 08:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <4FFA8BC1.23581.17903A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net>, <30DC112F-8DF6-458E-965B-B16B022634A9@lunar-tokyo.net> <4FFA8BC1.23581.17903A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120709084133.B70316@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yes, people made their living programming stuff like this at one > time. Real "old school". If'n you can call that "living" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 10:49:33 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 11:49:33 -0400 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 11:38 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > You're not really old school unless the only thing that comes to mind >> > when the term "RPG" is used is "what goes in column 1?" > On Mon, 9 Jul 2012, Keith Monahan wrote: >> Is this a D&D reference? > > What is D&D? > Is that a debugger for Report Program Generator messes? I really have no idea which messages in this thread are serious and which are sarcastic, but to help out "old school" and "new school" alike (i.e., to disambiguate) If you were a teenager after about 1978, RPG probably means "Role Playing Game" to you. If you learned to program before 1978, RPG probably means "Report Program Generator" to you. D&D in this thread means "Dungeons and Dragons". It's likely that many on this list have played it, but it's also equally likely that many have not. So there you have it. If this has all been thinly-veiled puns, my apologies - it was too subtle for me. -ethan From rwiker at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 09:45:10 2012 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 16:45:10 +0200 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <0BD6DD05-9BE0-4476-92F7-5153ED3EE9B0@gmail.com> On Jul 4, 2012, at 16:39 , Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, dwight elvey wrote: >> I'm trying to think of anything that Steve Jobs invented. > > Steve Jobs! > >> Does anyone know of something? >> He was a great person in some respects but inventer >> he wasn't. > > He had a remarkable talent for coming up with the right TIMING for > introducing the next iteration of existing products. > He was extraordinarily skilful at marketing, and creating intense brand > loyalty. > > iPod > iPhone > iPad > were all versions of existing products that had not previously been > very successful in the market. Pft. All of those were a lot better than what was already on the market, and in most cases, a better/more desirable product didn't appear until the next generation from Apple. Saying that these were just "iterations" of existing products is disingenious. From lorddoomicus at mac.com Thu Jul 5 17:58:52 2012 From: lorddoomicus at mac.com (Derrik Walker) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:58:52 -0400 Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: <20120705133522.I34140@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> <4FF5D6C2.2010306@neurotica.com> <52C3A759-B906-4947-81C7-4FD77BDB0D00@gmail.com> <20120705133522.I34140@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I started on a Commodore 64. I never had a Trash80 I built my career on Linux ( from UNIX ) I use a Mac I use an iPhone, only because of the integration with Mac OS. I'm definitely NOT everybody. I know a number of former Apple II users and one Thrash80 user. Definitely not everybody. Besides, I've always had the impression that EVERYBODY uses Windows. - Derrik On Jul 5, 2012, at 16:39, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Mark Benson wrote: >> I think your opinion of how well they sold may be coloured by the >> population you hung around in. > > We ALL do the "EVERYBODY [that I knew] used them!" > > > "everybody started out on Apple][" > "everybody had a doubler in their TRS80" > "everybody uses a Mac" > "everybody uses Linux" > "everybody has an iPhone" > > From jim.p.davis at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 21:30:12 2012 From: jim.p.davis at gmail.com (Jim Davis) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 19:30:12 -0700 Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <1341539936.19065.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com> <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <1341453125.26581.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <57F180B8-3E07-4AB3-ABF6-BF380AE43D2A@shiresoft.com> <1341455158.27690.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <03309813-A29D-4E66-8104-D757C69188B7@shiresoft.com> <20120705131511.GB7387@ns1.bonedaddy.net> <-8943995449945910910@unknownmsgid> <2d3901cd5aba$18b42b10$6600a8c0@tababook> <1341502113.1185.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1341539936.19065.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have the opposite problem with trackpads. I'm spastic and usually apply too much pressure on the darn thing. In windows, the result is picking up and moving things, unintended double clicks and other nonsense. I have mice attached to everything, including my Linux laptop box. You can abuse a mouse and it does no harm, Usually. I don't use the pads very often, so I'm not motivated to fix the default behaviors. On 7/5/12, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Liam Proven > > Of course, you are free not to like it, but that does not mean that > they are bad or there is anything wrong with them; it's just your > opinion. > > C: Of course that's entirely true. But another point I'd like to bring out > is that trackpads are way less strenuous on your muscles. You can tap the > pad instead of clicking the mouse. You can drag your finger across the pad, > you need to exert some effort to work that little button. It might be that I > have poor circulation and am more inclined to want less stress on my > appendages. It is a concern for everyone. I had 2 TPs in the past by the > way. > From markbenson at mac.com Fri Jul 6 04:47:09 2012 From: markbenson at mac.com (Mark Benson) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 10:47:09 +0100 Subject: WTB DECserver telnet Terminal Server Message-ID: As the subject suggests, I am looking for DECserver to go with a VT510 that will allow me to telnet to hosts without a full 'middle-computer'. If available also some ports to hang serial connections (MJ11 or d-series) to would be great too. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From nick.allen at comcast.net Fri Jul 6 20:24:54 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 20:24:54 -0500 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF78FE6.3060501@comcast.net> Looks like a plasma screen, similar to the one of the suitcase style HP Portable computers from the same time-frame From stsauveur at desktopint.com Fri Jul 6 23:39:09 2012 From: stsauveur at desktopint.com (Philip St.Sauveur) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 00:39:09 -0400 Subject: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 Message-ID: That display is a DEC VRE01 (electroluminescent flat panel) on a VAXstation 3100 I have a new one - still in the box - I haven't tried it yet.. :-) Phil St.Sauveur -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Friday, July 06, 2012 8:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC Flat Panel circa 1987 At 10:35 PM +0100 7/6/12, Mark Wickens wrote: >video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vDjbTuwLqA&feature=related >I noticed this: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/images/flat-panel.jpg >- the talk around this image is DEC World 1987. > >Of this screen grab I know: VSXXX-GA mouse, LK201-AA keyboard. >Can anyone provide any more information please? Unfortunately I can't remember any details, I think I heard about it years ago. It looks a lot like the screen provided to the US Military sometime around 1992 as part of a 3rd party Sparc portable system though. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 01:44:05 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 18:44:05 +1200 Subject: Known failure modes for the DEC H7441 Power Supply? Message-ID: I am continuing to make progress with the power supply modules for the PDP 11/04. The previous week involved testing and replacing a few of the electrolytic caps... a few pictures and some comment (although no great technical insights) at http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog. Today I got a chance to test the modules. One of the H7441 +5V supplies works fine (http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_5V_2.jpg) ... the output is a little high at 5.5v but that could be my meter calibration. I haven't played with the adjustment pot yet until I can confirm that my meter is reading correctly. The other +5V supply doesn't run ( http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_5V_1.jpg)... goes up to just over 1v as the AC comes up and then settles back to 0.5v. The DC voltage after the rectifier and across the main input capacitor looks OK on the meter. I have the PDP11/34 technical drawings with the schematic for the H7441 so will work though it but to get a head start, are there any common failure modes for these supplies that I should check first? The H745 -15V (http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_-15V.jpg) supply works fine although the Power OK bulb on the back has failed. I will replace it with an LED + resistor like the H7441. And assuming I sort out the last H7441 are then any recommendations on powering up the backplane? It has the following boards installed plus grant continuity cards as appropriate: M7257 RK05 M7256 RK05 M7255 RK05 M7254 RK05 M7258 Printer M7856 RS232/SLU M7860 General Device Interface M7856 RS232/SLU M7847 Memory M7847 Memory M7859 Console Interface M7263 Processor M9301 Unibus Terminator M7850 Parity Board M9202 Unibus Connector I assume it is good practice to draw a map of all the board locations, then remove them all, power up the backplane and check the power... but what is the next step. My guess is that a minimum set of boards would be the following: M7847 Memory M7847 Memory M7859 Console Interface M7263 Processor M9301 Unibus Terminator M7850 Parity Board Any suggestions? Regards Andrew From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 14:30:20 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 07:30:20 +1200 Subject: Known failure modes for the DEC H7441 Power Supply? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am continuing to make progress with the power supply modules for the PDP 11/04. The previous week involved testing and replacing a few of the electrolytic caps... a few pictures and some comment (although no great technical insights) at http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog. Today I got a chance to test the modules. One of the H7441 +5V supplies works fine (http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_5V_2.jpg) ... the output is a little high at 5.5v but that could be my meter calibration. I haven't played with the adjustment pot yet until I can confirm that my meter is reading correctly. The other +5V supply doesn't run ( http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_5V_1.jpg)... goes up to just over 1v as the AC comes up and then settles back to 0.5v. The DC voltage after the rectifier and across the main input capacitor looks OK on the meter. I have the PDP11/34 technical drawings with the schematic for the H7441 so will work though it but to get a head start, are there any common failure modes for these supplies that I should check first? The H745 -15V (http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_-15V.jpg) supply works fine although the Power OK bulb on the back has failed. I will replace it with an LED + resistor like the H7441. And assuming I sort out the last H7441 are then any recommendations on powering up the backplane? It has the following boards installed plus grant continuity cards as appropriate: M7257 RK05 M7256 RK05 M7255 RK05 M7254 RK05 M7258 Printer M7856 RS232/SLU M7860 General Device Interface M7856 RS232/SLU M7847 Memory M7847 Memory M7859 Console Interface M7263 Processor M9301 Unibus Terminator M7850 Parity Board M9202 Unibus Connector I assume it is good practice to draw a map of all the board locations, then remove them all, power up the backplane and check the power... but what is the next step. My guess is that a minimum set of boards would be the following: M7847 Memory M7847 Memory M7859 Console Interface M7263 Processor M9301 Unibus Terminator M7850 Parity Board Any suggestions? Regards Andrew From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 18:35:53 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 11:35:53 +1200 Subject: Known failure modes for the DEC H7441 Power Supply? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some good news after thinking about this overnight. I took a small 25VAC plugpack out of the junk box to make comparative testing of the two 7441 supplies easier. When I tested the known working 7441 it worked fine with the plugpack. When I tested the "faulty" 7441 it also worked fine. Reconnecting the faulty 7441 to the main transformer and bringing the voltage up with the variac and it didn't work. The problem is the rate of voltage increase. If I bring up the variac output slowly (say 0-240v over 5 seconds) then the 7441 will hang with the output under 1 volt. If I increase the voltage quickly (within 1-2 seconds) then it powers up fine and shows a good 5v on the output. The one known difference between the two 7441's is the faulty one has the original input cap which tested out OK. I could replace this if anyone thinks it is important. Otherwise I think it is time to put the regulators back in the chassis and try powering up the back plane. On Jul 8, 2012 7:30 AM, "Andrew Quinn" wrote: > I am continuing to make progress with the power supply modules for the PDP > 11/04. > > The previous week involved testing and replacing a few of the electrolytic > caps... a few pictures and some comment (although no great technical > insights) at http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog. > > Today I got a chance to test the modules. One of the H7441 +5V supplies > works fine (http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_5V_2.jpg) > ... the output is a little high at 5.5v but that could be my meter > calibration. I haven't played with the adjustment pot yet until I can > confirm that my meter is reading correctly. > > The other +5V supply doesn't run ( > http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_5V_1.jpg)... goes up > to just over 1v as the AC comes up and then settles back to 0.5v. > > The DC voltage after the rectifier and across the main input capacitor > looks OK on the meter. > > I have the PDP11/34 technical drawings with the schematic for the H7441 so > will work though it but to get a head start, are there any common failure > modes for these supplies that I should check first? > > The H745 -15V ( > http://www.quicktrip.co.nz/jaqblog/images/BLOG_PDP11_-15V.jpg) supply > works fine although the Power OK bulb on the back has failed. I will > replace it with an LED + resistor like the H7441. > > And assuming I sort out the last H7441 are then any recommendations on > powering up the backplane? > > It has the following boards installed plus grant continuity cards as > appropriate: > > M7257 RK05 > M7256 RK05 > M7255 RK05 > M7254 RK05 > M7258 Printer > M7856 RS232/SLU > M7860 General Device Interface > M7856 RS232/SLU > M7847 Memory > M7847 Memory > M7859 Console Interface > M7263 Processor > M9301 Unibus Terminator > M7850 Parity Board > M9202 Unibus Connector > > I assume it is good practice to draw a map of all the board locations, > then remove them all, power up the backplane and check the power... but > what is the next step. > > My guess is that a minimum set of boards would be the following: > > M7847 Memory > M7847 Memory > M7859 Console Interface > M7263 Processor > M9301 Unibus Terminator > M7850 Parity Board > > Any suggestions? > > Regards > > Andrew > From jonas at otter.se Sun Jul 8 12:19:01 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2012 19:19:01 +0200 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FF9C105.5080901@otter.se> On Sat, 7 Jul 2012 20:21:13 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > One of my hobbies at school was disrupting lessons by asking nasty > qeustions _on the subject of the lesson_. Point being had they kicked me > out for doing that, my parents would have exploded with the school > Seriously. > > I once walked out a physics lesson and said I would only return when the > teacher had actually learnt some basic physics. That did not go down > well. But, you know, I am still waiting for a defintion of a (scientific) > measurement that does not involve comparison to a standard. > > I think the problem was more with the school than the teacher, they should have got a teacher who knew the subject. Sadly, there is the same problem here. A lot, if not most, of the primary and secondary school teachers-to-be here do not know even basic mathematics. The University here (the one which produces engineers and Ph Ds in engineering, physics and chemistry) added an extra year to the M Sc courses long ago, so as to allow the students to catch up with the maths and physics. Even in the early 1970s, the curriculum in the UK up to O-levels was at least a year ahead of that here in Sweden; I went to a school for a year in Yorkshire when I was 15 (5th form) and during that one year I had to catch up with half the 4th form maths and physics, in addition to doing the 5th form syllabus and taking O-levels. When I came back I learned no new maths, physics or chemistry for the 3 years at school here until I went to University. I should have stayed on in England. /Jonas From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 9 11:35:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 09:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today, in the bus to work... In-Reply-To: <0BD6DD05-9BE0-4476-92F7-5153ED3EE9B0@gmail.com> References: , <4FF3AE6F.6050901@pico-systems.com>, <22fa01cd5991$420b4fe0$6600a8c0@tababook> <20120704073327.D90667@shell.lmi.net> <0BD6DD05-9BE0-4476-92F7-5153ED3EE9B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120709093322.T72483@shell.lmi.net> > > On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, dwight elvey wrote: > >> I'm trying to think of anything that Steve Jobs invented. > > iPod > > iPhone > > iPad On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Raymond Wiker wrote: > Pft. All of those were a lot better than what was already on the market, > and in most cases, a better/more desirable product didn't appear until > the next generation from Apple. Saying that these were just "iterations" > of existing products is disingenious. Nevertheless, going back to Dwight's original question, no matter how "awesome" they are, NONE of them were "inventions". From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 9 11:52:57 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Poor Steve is dead, poor Steve Jobs is dead... In-Reply-To: References: <4FF5491E.3070208@neurotica.com> <-2135104172509087336@unknownmsgid> <4FF5D6C2.2010306@neurotica.com> <52C3A759-B906-4947-81C7-4FD77BDB0D00@gmail.com> <20120705133522.I34140@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120709094750.H73140@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 Jul 2012, Derrik Walker wrote: > I started on a Commodore 64. > I never had a Trash80 > I built my career on Linux ( from UNIX ) > I use a Mac > I use an iPhone, only because of the integration with Mac OS. > I'm definitely NOT everybody. I know a number of former Apple II users > and one Thrash80 user. Definitely not everybody. > > Besides, I've always had the impression that EVERYBODY uses Windows. Sadly, that is close to true. It does not change the fact that people's personal surroundings tend to affect their perceptions of larger social demographics, disunirregardless of whether you consider yourself to be an exception. (typed on a hotel lobby Windoze XP HPaq) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 12:05:05 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 13:05:05 -0400 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <201207091528.q69FSxjA017143@ls-al.eu> References: <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> <30DC112F-8DF6-458E-965B-B16B022634A9@lunar-tokyo.net> <4FFA8BC1.23581.17903A@cclist.sydex.com> <201207091528.q69FSxjA017143@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: > So when is your 1401 online so we can RPG on it? :) Do it on your RJE station. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 9 12:19:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 10:19:50 -0700 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <201207091528.q69FSxjA017143@ls-al.eu> References: , <4FFA8BC1.23581.17903A@cclist.sydex.com>, <201207091528.q69FSxjA017143@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <4FFAB046.17623.A63800@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jul 2012 at 17:28, Sander Reiche wrote: > So when is your 1401 online so we can RPG on it? :) I'm not sure that 1401 RPG even exists online for the 1401 simulator. --Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 12:27:00 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 19:27:00 +0200 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: References: <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Isn't RPG something that goes "WOOOOOSH" then later "BOOOM"? -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 9 12:27:57 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 11:27:57 -0600 Subject: WTB DECserver telnet Terminal Server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Mark Benson writes: > As the subject suggests, I am looking for DECserver to go with a VT510 that > will allow me to telnet to hosts without a full 'middle-computer'. If > available also some ports to hang serial connections (MJ11 or d-series) to > would be great too. Pretty much any terminal server should be able to do this. Does it have to be a DECserver? You can get used terminal servers on ebay for cheap. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 9 12:29:04 2012 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 12:29:04 -0500 Subject: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II) In-Reply-To: <20120704195143.219460@gmx.net> References: <20120704195143.219460@gmx.net> Message-ID: The PCRII takes commands over an IEEE-488 bus. Its a vector graphics display, not NTSC. The shutter stays open during the write time, the filter wheel rotates to paint each RGB frame. The recording time can be several minutes, depending on the speed of the host computer. I think there were some primitives, like paint polygon, so it did not need the host to send the whole scan for the shape, just the vector outline and the PCR would do the fill. Think along the lines (pun intended) of gerber format for PCBs, and photoploters. Similar idea. > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2012 21:51:43 +0200 > From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de > Subject: Re: Film Recorders (Agfa PCR II) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > (...) it displys TV-rate video on an > > > > internal CRT and photographs it. > > > > > > > > There's a colour fitler wheel (red, green, blue and a hole) so it cna > > > > print a colour inamge in 3 goes. > > > > > > (...) > > > > AFAIK mine only does NTSC-rate video (OK, for the pedants, RS170 rate > > video), there is certainly no itnernal framestore. (...) there's a disk > > with 4 filters (one clear, maybe just a hole) and a stepper motor to > > move them. There is some kind of control board, I seem to remember it's > > microprocessor based,. maybe even an 8080. And not much more. I don;t > > rememebr there being an internal NTSC or PAL colour decoder. > > So it must takes RGB component input (no decoder) and you have to feed it a "freeze frame" video signal, i.e. keep the image content static (no framestore) until the three exposures have been completed? > > > (...) As I mentioned, the optics is a standard, and not very > > good (Soligor, I think) enlarger lese. It's essentially fixed focus > > (well evetyhing is at a fixed distance, so that's OK), it's fitted to a > > meatl tuve which slites into the camera body and is lcoked by a > > setscrew. Presumably you can focus it if necessary when you repari the > > unit. > > > > I also got what looks ot be a home-made bracket with it. 'Home made' > > meaning not a Polaroid product, I suecpt it was made in the workshops of > > the university I got this thing from. This fits in place of the Polaroid > > camera. It looks like it would have held a35mm SLR + motordrive (...) > > OK, so making a camera adapter in a "normal" workshop is confirmed to be possible. Apart from interfacing the signals, it looks as if the most complicated part of it was somehow joining the camera body, the lens and the distance tube in a mechanically solid and light-tight fashion without messing up the distances between the components as you go. > > > Err, yes... I think if I was going to make this, I would start wit ha > > dead electronic SLR, though. On the grounds it has interchagealbe lenses, > > a motor to wind the film and solenoids to open/close the shutter. Then > > remove the dead electroncis and make my own cotnrolelr. Whether I'd leave > > the mirror in palce I don;t know, it might be easier to do so if the > > sugger mwchanism depends on it for the corraect sequece. > > Seems like a very sane approach. I'll have to see what I can come up with, as I know for sure I don't have a broken SLR in my junk box... > > > Well, an enlarger lens is typically used to enlarge :-). What I mean is > > that the distance from the front to whatever (paper in an enalrger) is > > longer than the distance from the back to whatver (negative in an > > enlrager). So if you put the CRT where the paper would be and the film > > (in the cmaera body) where the negative should be, it'll work and > > produce a reduced image of the CRT on the film. > > > > That sounds like waht yuu want. > > Ahh, I see. I had something backwards but now I can't see what it was... > > Thank you so far, > Arno. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 9 12:29:42 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 10:29:42 -0700 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <20120709084133.B70316@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FFA8BC1.23581.17903A@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120709084133.B70316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FFAB296.28432.AF3F28@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jul 2012 at 8:41, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 9 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Yes, people made their living programming stuff like this at one > > time. Real "old school". > > If'n you can call that "living" Heh, I remember that a friend worked for a Chicago-area manufacturer that had just replaced their unit-record equipment with a 360/20 setup. Every week a big thick report would be generated and bound and placed on the desk of the CEO. Whereupon, it would be placed in a closet with all of the other weekly thick reports, never to be read. A couple of years down the road, said CEO went to an IBM marketing session (something along the line of "What modern data processing can do for your company"). Of course, IBM carpet-bombed the affair with sales people and system analysts. Said CEO asked about modernizing his operation (he lied and said it was basically a paper ledger operation, but had salses and production data ready). The analyst replied that he thought his operation was the perfect candidate for some unit-record automation. When asked about a computer, the guy responded that it was probably overkill. The contract for the 360/20 was terminated the next week. My friend lost his job and went back to school. I've always thought that a lot of BDP (there's another acronym for you new-schoolers) was make-work. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 12:44:10 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 13:44:10 -0400 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: References: <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Isn't RPG something that goes "WOOOOOSH" then later "BOOOM"? Ooh... yeah... forgot about that one... If you were American and 19 somewhere between about 1964 and 1974, _that_ might be the first thing that comes to mind for the letters R, P and G. Or perhaps something else comes to mind... http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/RPG -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 9 12:49:46 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 10:49:46 -0700 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net>, <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FFAB74A.7780.C19DAC@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jul 2012 at 8:38, Fred Cisin wrote: > S'posedly, there is even a Windoze "WINRPG"! WHY wasn't the RPG STD > cured and stamped out in 1959? Instead, it spread and spawned RPG II > ten years later. ..and RPG III, IV,400 and ILE RPG. Do we have RPG for mobile devices yet? --Chuck From microcode at zoho.com Mon Jul 9 12:35:30 2012 From: microcode at zoho.com (microcode at zoho.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 17:35:30 +0000 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: <4FFAB74A.7780.C19DAC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> <4FFAB74A.7780.C19DAC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201207091800.q69HxxUW040480@billy.ezwind.net> On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 10:49:46 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 9 Jul 2012 at 8:38, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > S'posedly, there is even a Windoze "WINRPG"! WHY wasn't the RPG STD > > cured and stamped out in 1959? Instead, it spread and spawned RPG II > > ten years later. > > ..and RPG III, IV,400 and ILE RPG. > > Do we have RPG for mobile devices yet? I believe somebody reported he had Hercules running on his Android phone, so... I think that means yes. From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Jul 9 13:15:37 2012 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 20:15:37 +0200 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry References: , , <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 5:38 PM Subject: Re: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry >> > You're not really old school unless the only thing that comes to mind >> > when the term "RPG" is used is "what goes in column 1?" > On Mon, 9 Jul 2012, Keith Monahan wrote: >> Is this a D&D reference? > > What is D&D? > Is that a debugger for Report Program Generator messes? > > S'posedly, there is even a Windoze "WINRPG"! WHY wasn't the RPG STD > cured and stamped out in 1959? Instead, it spread and spawned RPG II ten > years later. > For a customer, I once did an RPG/II simulator. The idea was that a Windows DLL could load RPG source and execute it. The simulator is also available as an EXE, so you can test RPG source "outside" the DLL. This makes testing a lot easier. The only thing not supported (AFAIR) is direct access on disks. Even UPSI 1-8 is supported :-) Programming is done in TPW1.50 /Nico -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 408 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 9 13:15:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 11:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: References: <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120709111451.G75608@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Jul 2012, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Isn't RPG something that goes "WOOOOOSH" then later "BOOOM"? That was a military implementation. The original IBM RPG could blow-up without ever needed to "WOOOOOSH"! From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jul 9 13:51:16 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 19:51:16 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: <6527724523490428800@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: > Jeesh I wouldn't say 'legitimate', it's thus far empty! I am > very keen to centralise all the information about DEC > hardware in one place though, hence why I set it up. > > I hadn't got around to publicising it uet as I didn't want to > get everyone's attention with what's basically an empty shell. I do have a bunch of data lying around that could be turned into wiki text in tabular form (with some scripting). So if you have a format you'd like, I could see if I can knock some thing up and then your wiki (or wikis, I don't mind :-)) would be empty no more. (I'm sure I used to have something for PDP-8 and terminals too, but, unless it's all in my imagination, it's not in the place I'd expect it to be). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 9 14:15:24 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 12:15:24 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> On 7/9/12 11:51 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > So if you have a format you'd like how about an ASCII TEXT FILE you know, those things we've been able to preserve without a steaming pile of php for the past 50 years. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 9 13:34:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 19:34:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FF9C105.5080901@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Jul 8, 12 07:19:01 pm Message-ID: > I think the problem was more with the school than the teacher, they > should have got a teacher who knew the subject. Well, as I've said before, I never had a maths or physics teacher who I regarded as clueful. These were the subjects, of coursem where I'd done a lot of extra readign and had discovered the interesting bits for myself. It's quite possible that otehr teachers were as cleless, I was jsut not able to spot it. Perhaps more worryingly, I never had a teacher who inspired me. > Sadly, there is the same problem here. A lot, if not most, of the > primary and secondary school teachers-to-be here do not know even basic > mathematics. The University here (the one which produces engineers and > Ph Ds in engineering, physics and chemistry) added an extra year to the > M Sc courses long ago, so as to allow the students to catch up with the > maths and physics. Even in the early 1970s, the curriculum in the UK up > to O-levels was at least a year ahead of that here in Sweden; I went to Now that's intersting. The exams are realyl dubmbed down here now, certainly compared ot what I did. I wonder if that was to bring us into line with other countries :-(. A friend of mine was studying maths at the second-oldest English universtiy abvot 110 years ago. Soem of the stuff he was being taught in the first year was stuff I'd covered at school (officially, not things I'd decided to teach myself). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 9 13:43:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 19:43:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: <20120709000047.42e0cff3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jul 9, 12 00:00:47 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:59:38 -0400 > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I think there was some discussion on this list a while back about a > > DIY microcontroller-based DEC LK2xx-to-PS/2 keyboard adapter > http://www.kbdbabel.org/ has several converters for different > keyboards. LKx01 to PS/2 and vice versa is here: > http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-ps2-dec/ > http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-lk-ps2/ At a quick glance, those keyboard converters seem to mostly be going the wrong way for us. THey are to use strange keyboards on hosts with PS/2 interfaces. So there's anm itnerface to link an LK201 to a PC, but not the reverse. Odd... Most of the time it's the keyboard, not the classic computer, that's either misisng or hard to repair. Converters to link PS/2 keybaords to classics would eb a lot more useful. -tony From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Jul 9 14:29:34 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 20:29:34 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: <4FF9C105.5080901@otter.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Perhaps more worryingly, I never had a teacher who inspired me. Wow. I had a few, and I hated school, college, university, the whole lot... (; -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Doctor: You know when grownups tell you, "Everything's going to be fine" and you think they're probably lying to make you feel better? Amelia: Yeah. Doctor: Everything's going to be fine. From md.benson at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 15:22:14 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 21:22:14 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 9 Jul 2012, at 20:15, Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/9/12 11:51 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > >> So if you have a format you'd like > > how about an ASCII TEXT FILE Yes, an ACSIII file wouldn't be a bad idea. > you know, those things we've been able to preserve without a steaming > pile of php for the past 50 years. Now, Al, you leave my steaming piles of PHP alone :P I only feel that something database-oriented is better for search-ability and indexing purposes. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jul 9 15:39:34 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 22:39:34 +0200 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: <20120709000047.42e0cff3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120709223934.a0115146.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 9 Jul 2012 19:43:36 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > So there's anm itnerface to link an LK201 to a PC, but not > the reverse. As I wrote: LKx01 to PS/2 and _vice_versa_. The two linked kbdbabels allow the connection of a LKx01 to a PeeCee and the other turns PS/2 keyboard into a LKx01. > Odd... Most of the time it's the keyboard, not the classic computer, > that's either misisng or hard to repair. Converters to link PS/2 > keybaords to classics would eb a lot more useful. There are a lot of people that want to use their beloved, old keyboard with "strange" interface on a PeeCee. Especially if they use the PeeCee to emulate som old hardware. Converters from PS/2 keyboard to classic computer are also provided by kbdbabel. E.g. I have one that turns a PS/2 keyboard into a Sun Type 4 keyboard. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jul 9 16:06:35 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 22:06:35 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: 09 July 2012 20:15 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-11 Wiki > > > On 7/9/12 11:51 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > > So if you have a format you'd like > > how about an ASCII TEXT FILE > > you know, those things we've been able to preserve without a > steaming pile of php for the past 50 years. It *is* a text file: a bunch of entries that look something like this: start-system ALPHA AS1000 AS1000-4-233 announcement = [1 May 1995][CU-V6-5A] bus_eisa = [7 slots][CU-V6-5A] bus_pci = [2 slots][CU-V6-5A] bus_pci_or_eisa = [1 slot][CU-V6-5A] cpu_clock = [233MHz][CU-V6-5A] max_memory = [512MB][CU-V6-5A] mem_checking = [ECC][CU-V6-5A] num_proc = [1][CU-V6-5A] os_support_vms = [OpenVMS V6.1-1H2][] specfp92 = [222.9][CU-V6-5A] specint92 = [165.3][CU-V6-5A] sys_name = [AlphaServer 1000 4/233][] tpc_a = [300:(e)][CU-V6-5A] end-system AS1000-4-233 But that's not going to look too nice in a wiki, so I presumed that it would need to be massaged (by script) into some other text format (media wiki) , in which case it should probably match the look and feel of the other pages. Since there are (almost) no other pages I didn't want to end up defining the look of the page by fiat. Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 9 16:19:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 14:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kildall's In-Reply-To: References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120709141628.C80838@shell.lmi.net> I'm in Pacific Grove (Asilomar) at an unrelated conference. On a whim, I told the dash demon to take me to 801 Lighthouse - less than a mile away. The current owner gave me a short tour! I also snapped a couple of pictures of 716 and 734. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 9 16:27:07 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 17:27:07 -0400 Subject: Kildall's In-Reply-To: <20120709141628.C80838@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> <20120709141628.C80838@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FFB4CAB.709@neurotica.com> On 07/09/2012 05:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I'm in Pacific Grove (Asilomar) at an unrelated conference. On a whim, I > told the dash demon to take me to 801 Lighthouse - less than a mile away. > > The current owner gave me a short tour! > > > > I also snapped a couple of pictures of 716 and 734. PICS!! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 9 16:51:07 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 14:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kildall's In-Reply-To: <4FFB4CAB.709@neurotica.com> References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> <20120709141628.C80838@shell.lmi.net> <4FFB4CAB.709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120709143539.L80838@shell.lmi.net> > On 07/09/2012 05:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I'm in Pacific Grove (Asilomar) at an unrelated conference. On a whim, I > > told the dash demon to take me to 801 Lighthouse - less than a mile away. > > The current owner gave me a short tour! On Mon, 9 Jul 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I also snapped a couple of pictures of 716 and 734. > PICS!! I'm using a hotel lobby ("business center") computer (the "wifi in every room" is too weak for anybody to connect). I might try with this machine tonight. Otherwise it'll be a few days. No quality pictures; just rough snapshots, and no interior pictures (that would have pushed the limits on the owner's hospitality - he had not been expecting visitors). He was painting a chair in the yard when I walked up. I asked him if he would mind if I took a few snapshots of the outside of his house, and he was way more than obliging. I explained that I was NOT a professional historian, just a librarian who had a nostalgic curiousity. (OK, OK, "old fart" would have been more accurate) He bought the house on a short-sale ($850K), with no idea that it had a history. Since then, he has heard a fair amount about it. Within hours after his bid was accepted, other bids WAY higher started to come in! He is not "restoring" the house, but he is making repairs, and not changing it. Some time, if you want to organize a serious documentary set of photographs of, and in, the house, I think that he might be amenable! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 9 16:51:54 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 15:51:54 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4FFB2DCC.8090407 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 7/9/12 11:51 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > > So if you have a format you'd like > > how about an ASCII TEXT FILE > > you know, those things we've been able to preserve without a steaming pile > of php for the past 50 years. PHP is just another text file. :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 9 16:53:54 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 15:53:54 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , writes: > It *is* a text file: a bunch of entries that look something like this: > > start-system ALPHA AS1000 AS1000-4-233 > announcement = [1 May 1995][CU-V6-5A] > bus_eisa = [7 slots][CU-V6-5A] > bus_pci = [2 slots][CU-V6-5A] > bus_pci_or_eisa = [1 slot][CU-V6-5A] > cpu_clock = [233MHz][CU-V6-5A] > max_memory = [512MB][CU-V6-5A] > mem_checking = [ECC][CU-V6-5A] > num_proc = [1][CU-V6-5A] > os_support_vms = [OpenVMS V6.1-1H2][] > specfp92 = [222.9][CU-V6-5A] > specint92 = [165.3][CU-V6-5A] > sys_name = [AlphaServer 1000 4/233][] > tpc_a = [300:(e)][CU-V6-5A] > end-system AS1000-4-233 I would turn that into a mediawiki template invocation, something like: {{system | name = ALPHA AS1000 AS1000-4-233 | announcement = [1 May 1995][CU-V6-5A] | bus_eisa = [7 slots][CU-V6-5A] | bus_pci = [2 slots][CU-V6-5A] | bus_pci_or_eisa = [1 slot][CU-V6-5A] | cpu_clock = [233MHz][CU-V6-5A] | max_memory = [512MB][CU-V6-5A] | mem_checking = [ECC][CU-V6-5A] | num_proc = [1][CU-V6-5A] | os_support_vms = [OpenVMS V6.1-1H2][] | specfp92 = [222.9][CU-V6-5A] | specint92 = [165.3][CU-V6-5A] | sys_name = [AlphaServer 1000 4/233][] | tpc_a = [300:(e)][CU-V6-5A] }} ...and then let the template do all the formatting. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jul 9 17:06:24 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 17:06:24 -0500 Subject: Kildall's In-Reply-To: <20120709143539.L80838@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> <20120709141628.C80838@shell.lmi.net> <4FFB4CAB.709@neurotica.com> <20120709143539.L80838@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201207092215.q69MEuGg045659@billy.ezwind.net> At 04:51 PM 7/9/2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On 07/09/2012 05:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > I'm in Pacific Grove (Asilomar) at an unrelated conference. On a whim, I >> > told the dash demon to take me to 801 Lighthouse - less than a mile away. >> > The current owner gave me a short tour! http://www.montereycountyweekly.com/news/2011/jul/21/history-house/ - John From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Mon Jul 9 15:10:47 2012 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 21:10:47 +0100 Subject: Odd-sized computer cards Message-ID: <01E0B03864C04DD0BE663BC7223785C8@vostro> Do any of you guys have 96-column, 40-column and other non-80-column cards? For my collection of data storage media. Many thanks, peter || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From md.benson at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 01:23:46 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 07:23:46 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9 Jul 2012, at 22:53, Richard wrote: > I would turn that into a mediawiki template invocation, something > like: > > {{system > | name = ALPHA AS1000 AS1000-4-233 > | announcement = [1 May 1995][CU-V6-5A] > | bus_eisa = [7 slots][CU-V6-5A] > | bus_pci = [2 slots][CU-V6-5A] > | bus_pci_or_eisa = [1 slot][CU-V6-5A] > | cpu_clock = [233MHz][CU-V6-5A] > | max_memory = [512MB][CU-V6-5A] > | mem_checking = [ECC][CU-V6-5A] > | num_proc = [1][CU-V6-5A] > | os_support_vms = [OpenVMS V6.1-1H2][] > | specfp92 = [222.9][CU-V6-5A] > | specint92 = [165.3][CU-V6-5A] > | sys_name = [AlphaServer 1000 4/233][] > | tpc_a = [300:(e)][CU-V6-5A] > }} > > ...and then let the template do all the formatting. Yup I can do a template to fit that as long as I have a comprehensive list of every field that the filed uses throughout the entries. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 10 01:38:55 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:38:55 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 Message-ID: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> I shot an Tek 611 Storage display lately (230820230720), is there documentaion available somewhere? Has someone a left over D/A converter Card for an QBUS 11? I've found a pdf for an AA11-K card which should be connected to such a display but this is a unibus card it seems.. I only have QBUS-gear. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 01:50:58 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 07:50:58 +0100 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 7:38 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > I shot an Tek 611 Storage display lately (230820230720), is there > documentaion available somewhere? Has someone a left over D/A converter I have a physical instruction/service manual for a version of it 611 MOD162C storage display unit not scanned yet http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=611+MOD162C+storage+display+unit Dave Caroline From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jul 10 03:20:07 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 09:20:07 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Benson > Sent: 10 July 2012 07:24 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11 Wiki > > > > On 9 Jul 2012, at 22:53, Richard wrote: > > > I would turn that into a mediawiki template invocation, something > > like: > > > > {{system > > | name = ALPHA AS1000 AS1000-4-233 > > | announcement = [1 May 1995][CU-V6-5A] > > | bus_eisa = [7 slots][CU-V6-5A] > > | bus_pci = [2 slots][CU-V6-5A] > > | bus_pci_or_eisa = [1 slot][CU-V6-5A] > > | cpu_clock = [233MHz][CU-V6-5A] > > | max_memory = [512MB][CU-V6-5A] > > | mem_checking = [ECC][CU-V6-5A] > > | num_proc = [1][CU-V6-5A] > > | os_support_vms = [OpenVMS V6.1-1H2][] > > | specfp92 = [222.9][CU-V6-5A] > > | specint92 = [165.3][CU-V6-5A] > > | sys_name = [AlphaServer 1000 4/233][] > > | tpc_a = [300:(e)][CU-V6-5A] > > }} > > > > ...and then let the template do all the formatting. > > Yup I can do a template to fit that as long as I have a > comprehensive list of every field that the filed uses > throughout the entries. I can no doubt find some simple way of coming up with all the fields. I gathered this stuff over a number of years. As it's a bunch of mildly formatted text files, it's not terribly consistent. Plus many fields for (say) VAX are not applicable to (say) disks. My 20s spent looking at media wiki templates suggests that you feed each template a bunch of parameters, the same set everywhere a template is used. How does that work if you want people to come along and edit an entry later? For example, if you have data for 20 or so different VAX systems and only then realise that you've completely forgotten about the "Compatibility mode" property. You can add it to the template, but do you need to go back and change every template invocation to add the new parameter? I should point out that the [CU-V6-5A] part is a "reference" field. That one happens to be "Customer Update. Volume 6 Issue 5A. 1st May 1995". When I turned some of this into webpages then that ended up as "[1]", "[2]" etc. and the references were spelled out at the foot of the page. You might want to make provision for that so that future page editors have some guidelines to follow. Anyway, it's currently text and I can turn it into whatever text you think is suitable. Antonio From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jul 10 08:08:19 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 09:08:19 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FFC2943.50802@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/07/12 5:51 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4FFB2DCC.8090407 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > >> On 7/9/12 11:51 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >> >>> So if you have a format you'd like >> >> how about an ASCII TEXT FILE >> >> you know, those things we've been able to preserve without a steaming pile >> of php for the past 50 years. > > PHP is just another text file. :-) Wish it would stay that way. Preferably behind glass in a museum. --T From abs at absd.org Tue Jul 10 08:12:30 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 14:12:30 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: <4FFC2943.50802@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> <4FFC2943.50802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 10 July 2012 14:08, Toby Thain wrote: > On 09/07/12 5:51 PM, Richard wrote: >> >> In article<4FFB2DCC.8090407 at bitsavers.org>, >> Al Kossow writes: >> >>> On 7/9/12 11:51 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >>> >>>> So if you have a format you'd like >>> >>> how about an ASCII TEXT FILE >>> >>> you know, those things we've been able to preserve without a steaming >>> pile >>> of php for the past 50 years. >> >> PHP is just another text file. :-) > > Wish it would stay that way. Preferably behind glass in a museum. One day the letters "PHP" will be as familiar to mainstream computer users as "PDP". I keep telling myself that... From iamcamiel at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 08:34:34 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 15:34:34 +0200 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> <4FFC2943.50802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:12 PM, David Brownlee wrote: > One day the letters "PHP" will be as familiar to mainstream computer > users as "PDP". > I keep telling myself that... Programmable Hypertext Processor? From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Jul 10 08:35:35 2012 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:35:35 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> <4FFC2943.50802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <604B584B-FC4F-4BD2-9B1C-1BC94CC79280@lunar-tokyo.net> On Jul 10, 2012, at 8:12 AM, David Brownlee wrote: > One day the letters "PHP" will be as familiar to mainstream computer > users as "PDP". > I keep telling myself that... It could be worse. PHP could have never happened, and IIS/ASP could have filled that niche instead. (Disclaimer: PHP pays my bills) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 10 09:33:41 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:33:41 -0600 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: In article <20120710063855.GB71546 at beast.freibergnet.de>, Holm Tiffe writes: > I shot an Tek 611 Storage display lately (230820230720), is there > documentaion available somewhere? Thanks to Bob Rosenbloom sending me a copy physically, I just scanned this for bitsavers, but Al hasn't moved it there yet. You can get it here (warning, not a permanent URL) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 10 09:43:25 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:43:25 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , writes: > I can no doubt find some simple way of coming up with all the fields. A simple awk script should be able to it. (Or pick your poison if you don't like awk.) > I gathered this stuff over a number of years. As it's a bunch of mildly > formatted text files, it's not terribly consistent. Plus many fields for > (say) VAX are not applicable to (say) disks. There are a number of ways you can handle that in mediawiki. You can create specialized templates for VAX (my preference), or you can add conditional logic in the template "if this field present, then these other fields are relevant". > My 20s spent looking at > media wiki templates suggests that you feed each template a bunch of > parameters, the same set everywhere a template is used. How does that > work if you want people to come along and edit an entry later? The template only handles formatting, not content. The content is the set of supplied arguments to the template. For instance, on the terminals wiki, I have templates that create the summary infobox on the right hand side for each terminal. When you edit the page, you see the template call in the page with all the arguments that define the content. If you want to edit the presentation of the content, you edit the definition of the template itself. For fancy things like infoboxes, there is a small amount of CSS you also have to edit in wikimedia. > For > example, if you have data for 20 or so different VAX systems and only > then realise that you've completely forgotten about the "Compatibility > mode" property. You can add it to the template, but do you need to go > back and change every template invocation to add the new parameter? There are two ways of handling this. One is to supply a reasonable default (usually empty) for the template parameter in the definition of the template. You only create presentation for parameters that are non-empty when the template is called. Old calls to the template that don't supply this new parameter render the same. New content appears for any calls to the template that supply the new parameter. If you've decided that the new parameter must be supplied, and there is no reasonable default, then you do a search for all the existing uses of the template and add the parameter first. (Unused parameters are ignored when the template is processed.) Then you add the presentation for the new parameter in the template. The new content will just show up for the existing calls to the template. You can go further and add error handling to the template to call out missing required arguments. I do this for the terminals wiki infobox -- if required parameters are missing, or have the wrong values, then the entire infobox is omitted and you just get a big red error message on the page. It's pretty obvious when the template isn't used correctly that way. > I should point out that the [CU-V6-5A] part is a "reference" field. That > one happens to be "Customer Update. Volume 6 Issue 5A. 1st May 1995". > When I turned some of this into webpages then that ended up as "[1]", > "[2]" etc. and the references were spelled out at the foot of the page. > You might want to make provision for that so that future page editors > have some guidelines to follow. I believe this references mechanism can also be handled in mediawiki markup. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 10 09:46:43 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:46:43 -0600 Subject: web app programming languages (Re: PDP-11 Wiki) In-Reply-To: <604B584B-FC4F-4BD2-9B1C-1BC94CC79280@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> <4FFC2943.50802@telegraphics.com.au> <604B584B-FC4F-4BD2-9B1C-1BC94CC79280@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: In article <604B584B-FC4F-4BD2-9B1C-1BC94CC79280 at lunar-tokyo.net>, Daniel Seagraves writes: > > One day the letters "PHP" will be as familiar to mainstream computer > > users as "PDP". > > I keep telling myself that... > > It could be worse. PHP could have never happened, and IIS/ASP could have > filled that niche instead. ASP (not ASP.NET) is over a decade deprecated by now. Having programmed in all 3 (PHP, ASP, ASP.NET), ASP.NET is *much* more productive and has *much* better development tools. The only people I know that express the same opinion as yourself are people who are either i) anti-MS bigots like Dave McGuire, so there's no point in attempting to have a rational discussion with them, ii) make their living from PHP, or iii) have never actually used ASP.NET and they are just /. "me too" types. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From abs at absd.org Tue Jul 10 09:51:34 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 15:51:34 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know if you want to pull in anything from the VAX Hardware reference page at http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/full.html Its source data is also in a simple text format :) http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/vax-data From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 10 10:18:04 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 17:18:04 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> Richard wrote: > > In article <20120710063855.GB71546 at beast.freibergnet.de>, > Holm Tiffe writes: > > > I shot an Tek 611 Storage display lately (230820230720), is there > > documentaion available somewhere? > > Thanks to Bob Rosenbloom sending me a copy physically, I just scanned > this for bitsavers, but Al hasn't moved it there yet. You can get it > here (warning, not a permanent URL) > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) Great! I'm downloading it currently.. Thanks, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 10 10:24:33 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 17:24:33 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 Message-ID: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, a friend of mine sent me an DEC Server 300 which he saved from the dumpster. There is a triangle in the bottom that some sharp metall edge must have made. This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that must be related to the BNC network. The Chip is located next to the 20MHz Crystalnext to the poushbutton Switch, it is broken in two halves and the ceramic top plate of the chip is missing. It seems that the pcb survivied, so here comes the question: What was this for an (Network-)chip? Can please someone help? Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 10 10:46:58 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:46:58 -0700 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FFC4E72.6080806@bitsavers.org> On 7/10/12 8:18 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Thanks to Bob Rosenbloom sending me a copy physically, I just scanned >> this for bitsavers, but Al hasn't moved it there yet. Just took care of it. I have a Terak 8010B and a Tek 8562 running now, and have been busy working on recovering bits. Expect Tnix 2.1 bits to be uploaded soon. The drive in the 8562 is a Micropolis 1304 on a Xebec 1401 (SASI) so there is some chance of getting a replacement some day. Both drives in the units have sticky head actuators. The usual opening of the HDA and fiddling with the actuator were required to get one of the two going, and that one had the native programming and x86 tools packages on it. I'm looking for a copy of a bootable Terak double density RT11 disk image, and a parallel keyboard for the 8010C that I have. All of the RT images I have try booting from the non-existant SD controller. UCSD Pascal II.0 can apparently deal with either kind. The docs on John Foust's site also say it should work with the high resolution display in the 8010C. It did seem to boot with one, but I have to puzzle out the pinouts of the 15 pin monitor connector on the 8010C. Actually, I need to do that for all of the connectors since there only seems to be documentation around for the pinouts of the 8010A. Oddly, the documentation for the variable density conversion kit claims that the conversion floppy is bootable, but it doesn't appear to be. I haven't tried manually putting the DDens bootstrap and monitor onto a floppy disk image yet, still have to figure out how the DDens floppies are laid out (they use IBM MFM encoding, so they're incompatible with RX02's). I tried the 11/73 out of the 8562 and it fails to boot II.0 (11/02 and 23 boards work). From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jul 10 11:34:42 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 12:34:42 -0400 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FFC59A2.5000000@atarimuseum.com> Take a photo, post it up on flicker or something and send a link to the group, makes it easier to indentify Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hi, > > a friend of mine sent me an DEC Server 300 which he saved from the > dumpster. There is a triangle in the bottom that some sharp metall edge > must have made. This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that > must be related to the BNC network. The Chip is located next to the 20MHz > Crystalnext to the poushbutton Switch, it is broken in two halves and the > ceramic top plate of the chip is missing. It seems that the pcb survivied, > so here comes the question: > What was this for an (Network-)chip? Can please someone help? > > Kind Regards, > > Holm > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 10 11:57:44 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 09:57:44 -0700 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FFC5F08.3020204@bitsavers.org> On 7/10/12 8:24 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that > must be related to the BNC network. If the 300 uses an AMD LANCE like the 200, it would be an AMD 7992 SIA The schematics of the 200 are at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/ethernet/MP01828_DSRVC-A_EngrDrws_Jul86 From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 10 12:02:19 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:02:19 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <4FFC59A2.5000000@atarimuseum.com> References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC59A2.5000000@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20120710170219.GE22064@beast.freibergnet.de> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Take a photo, post it up on flicker or something and send a link to the > group, makes it easier to indentify No. I'm already taken the pictures with my cam, but finding the chip is really that easy.. one has just to look to the pcb. That's why i'm not uploaded the pictures to my website. Interstingly it seems that there is nowhere a picture from that PCB available on the WEB... BTW: why you are answering at top? I've found out in the meantime that the chip mut be an Am7991 or 7992 Chip, that also fits functionally and the 20Mhz Xtal is connected to the correct pins. I've just googles for the next bigger chip in this location, there is an SIEMENS SCOCO12, 21-21672-10 which seems to be the network controller, maybe something comaptible to the AMD LANCE AM7990? I've found a hit on a DELQA Engeneering manual and in this manual finally the Part ... Interestingly I found a Datasheet for the Am7991A/Am7992A which makes no difference between the two chips. Why the heck are there two Part numbers? I've found in my boxes an old Chipset resqued from an old PC adapter, it contains a Am7992. I'll solder in a socket and will try... Could please someone look at the PCB and find out which chip is soldered in? They are at least pin comatible.. Regards, Holm > > > > Holm Tiffe wrote: > >Hi, > > > >a friend of mine sent me an DEC Server 300 which he saved from the > >dumpster. There is a triangle in the bottom that some sharp metall edge > >must have made. This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that > >must be related to the BNC network. The Chip is located next to the 20MHz > >Crystalnext to the poushbutton Switch, it is broken in two halves and the > >ceramic top plate of the chip is missing. It seems that the pcb survivied, > >so here comes the question: > >What was this for an (Network-)chip? Can please someone help? > > > >Kind Regards, > > > >Holm > > > > > > -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 10 12:03:49 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:03:49 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <4FFC4E72.6080806@bitsavers.org> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC4E72.6080806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120710170349.GF22064@beast.freibergnet.de> Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/10/12 8:18 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > >>Thanks to Bob Rosenbloom sending me a copy physically, I just scanned > >>this for bitsavers, but Al hasn't moved it there yet. > > Just took care of it. I have a Terak 8010B and a Tek 8562 running now, and > have > been busy working on recovering bits. Expect Tnix 2.1 bits to be uploaded > soon. > The drive in the 8562 is a Micropolis 1304 on a Xebec 1401 (SASI) so there > is > some chance of getting a replacement some day. Both drives in the units > have sticky > head actuators. The usual opening of the HDA and fiddling with the actuator > were > required to get one of the two going, and that one had the native > programming and > x86 tools packages on it. > > I'm looking for a copy of a bootable Terak double density RT11 disk image, > and > a parallel keyboard for the 8010C that I have. > > All of the RT images I have try booting from the non-existant SD controller. > UCSD Pascal II.0 can apparently deal with either kind. The docs on John > Foust's > site also say it should work with the high resolution display in the 8010C. > It > did seem to boot with one, but I have to puzzle out the pinouts of the 15 > pin > monitor connector on the 8010C. Actually, I need to do that for all of the > connectors > since there only seems to be documentation around for the pinouts of the > 8010A. > > Oddly, the documentation for the variable density conversion kit claims > that the > conversion floppy is bootable, but it doesn't appear to be. I haven't tried > manually > putting the DDens bootstrap and monitor onto a floppy disk image yet, still > have to > figure out how the DDens floppies are laid out (they use IBM MFM encoding, > so they're > incompatible with RX02's). > > I tried the 11/73 out of the 8562 and it fails to boot II.0 (11/02 and 23 > boards work). > Interresting Al, but what the heck has it todo with my Tek 611? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jul 10 12:13:26 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 10:13:26 -0700 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FFC62B6.9020303@jwsss.com> I had a Genisco (or Gen something) terminal (I think) which was a box of TTL electronics with one of these on top. I had two displays and one terminal box at one time, but have sold them. Genisco was a local Orange County, Ca. company that went belly up in the 80's I think, or at least quit making terminals. Someone may know, but I think they may have continued in the printer business. They were doing a system similar to the Tek storage terminals but w/o owning the storage tube part of the equation (buying Tek units instead). I think the display I had could print as well with one of the Tek storage printers, It will be interesting to download and read Richard's scan. Please follow up if you recall the correct info, it has been too long for me to remember the names for sure. Jim On 7/10/2012 8:18 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Tek 611 Storage display From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 10 12:15:55 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 10:15:55 -0700 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120710170349.GF22064@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC4E72.6080806@bitsavers.org> <20120710170349.GF22064@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FFC634B.80800@bitsavers.org> On 7/10/12 10:03 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Interresting Al, but what the heck has it todo with my Tek 611? > It was an explaination of why it wasn't uploaded the 7992 has a more sophisticated passive R/C network on TSEL than the 7991. that has nothing to do with your Tek 611 either From asc135 at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 12:48:38 2012 From: asc135 at gmail.com (Amardeep S Chana) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 13:48:38 -0400 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) Message-ID: > > > > On Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:59:38 -0400 > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > I think there was some discussion on this list a while back about a > > > DIY microcontroller-based DEC LK2xx-to-PS/2 keyboard adapter > > http://www.kbdbabel.org/ has several converters for different > > keyboards. LKx01 to PS/2 and vice versa is here: > > http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-ps2-dec/ > > http://kbdbabel.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kbdbabel/kbdbabel/kbdbabel-lk-ps2/ > > At a quick glance, those keyboard converters seem to mostly be going the > wrong way for us. THey are to use strange keyboards on hosts with PS/2 > interfaces. So there's anm itnerface to link an LK201 to a PC, but not > the reverse. > > Odd... Most of the time it's the keyboard, not the classic computer, > that's either misisng or hard to repair. Converters to link PS/2 > keybaords to classics would eb a lot more useful. > > -tony > My guess would be they're intended for people who want to emulate the classic system on a modern machine but utilize the original system's keyboard. It's not entirely unlike those PS/2 connector 3270 keyboards to use with IBM terminal emulators. Amardeep From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 10 14:15:41 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:15:41 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <4FFC634B.80800@bitsavers.org> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710151804.GA20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC4E72.6080806@bitsavers.org> <20120710170349.GF22064@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC634B.80800@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120710191541.GA38544@beast.freibergnet.de> Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/10/12 10:03 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > >Interresting Al, but what the heck has it todo with my Tek 611? > > > > It was an explaination of why it wasn't uploaded Ahh, ok. > > the 7992 has a more sophisticated passive R/C network on TSEL than the > 7991. > > that has nothing to do with your Tek 611 either > Thats why I opened another Thread. Don't worry Al, Thanks to you. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 14:24:28 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 14:24:28 -0500 Subject: MS-02-AA, 54-24829-DA Message-ID: I found some of my missing memory sticks. MS02-AA $30 each, 4/$100 Used in 5000/xxx 54-24829-DA $40 each, 4/$140 64meg used in PW433A, and others Any qty within US $7 S/H, Ships from Illinois, 61853 Please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Jul 10 14:35:10 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:35:10 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <4FFC5F08.3020204@bitsavers.org> References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC5F08.3020204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120710193510.GB38544@beast.freibergnet.de> Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/10/12 8:24 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that > >must be related to the BNC network. > > If the 300 uses an AMD LANCE like the 200, it would be an AMD 7992 SIA > > The schematics of the 200 are at > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/ethernet/MP01828_DSRVC-A_EngrDrws_Jul86 After replacing the broken Chip trough the 7992 it seems to be working again: 21:33:05.025466 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown), ethertype MOP DL (0x6001), length 60: 0x0000: 1800 083c 0102 0953 4831 3630 3145 4e47 ...<...SH1601ENG 0x0010: 0090 0101 0191 0102 d405 0191 0102 d405 ................ 0x0020: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 .............. 21:33:09.122821 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown), ethertype MOP DL (0x6001), length 60: 0x0000: 1800 083c 0102 0953 4831 3630 3145 4e47 ...<...SH1601ENG 0x0010: 0090 0101 0191 0102 d405 0191 0102 d405 ................ 0x0020: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 .............. 21:33:21.595271 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown) SNAP Unnumbered, ui, Flags [Command], length 46 21:33:25.689338 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown) SNAP Unnumbered, ui, Flags [Command], length 46 21:33:29.785045 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown) SNAP Unnumbered, ui, Flags [Command], length 46 21:33:33.882401 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown) SNAP Unnumbered, ui, Flags [Command], length 46 21:33:38.070031 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown), ethertype MOP DL (0x6001), length 60: 0x0000: 1800 083c 0102 0953 4831 3630 3145 4e47 ...<...SH1601ENG 0x0010: 0090 0101 0191 0102 d405 0191 0102 d405 ................ 0x0020: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 .............. 21:33:42.164092 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown), ethertype MOP DL (0x6001), length 60: 0x0000: 1800 083c 0102 0953 4831 3630 3145 4e47 ...<...SH1601ENG 0x0010: 0090 0101 0191 0102 d405 0191 0102 d405 ................ 0x0020: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 .............. 21:33:46.259797 08:00:2b:29:b0:b1 (oui Unknown) > ab:00:00:01:00:00 (oui Unknown), ethertype MOP DL (0x6001), length 60: 0x0000: 1800 083c 0102 0953 4831 3630 3145 4e47 ...<...SH1601ENG 0x0010: 0090 0101 0191 0102 d405 0191 0102 d405 ................ 0x0020: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 .............. ...at least it tries to MOP... Thanks again, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jul 10 14:42:43 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:42:43 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120710214243.f677390d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:38:55 +0200 Holm Tiffe wrote: > I shot an Tek 611 Storage display lately (230820230720), is there > documentaion available somewhere? Has someone a left over D/A converter > Card for an QBUS 11? I have a: M7651 DRV11-WA Q 18/22-bit DMA general purpose parallel interface M7651 Refs: EK-DRVWA-UG, MP-01582, ZJ244-RZ, uNOTE N#041 Maybe you can use it to interface some generic DAC to it? As I still have to send some other stuff your way I could throw the DRV11 into the pile. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 10 14:44:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 20:44:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Jul 10, 12 05:24:33 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > a friend of mine sent me an DEC Server 300 which he saved from the > dumpster. There is a triangle in the bottom that some sharp metall edge > must have made. This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that I've never worked on one of thsse, but I'll take a guess... Is there an AM7990 (40 pin DIL) on the board? If so, my first guess is that this is an AM7992. See if the pins match up. -tony From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jul 10 15:17:15 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 15:17:15 -0500 Subject: any VT525 terminal users? with LCD? Message-ID: <20120710201715.GI13753@n0jcf.net> I saved a couple DEC VT525 terminals a year ago or so from a barn and after cleaning them up, they seem to work mostly with the exception that the video they produce on a number of different VGA LCD panels is quite dim. Both terminals exhibit the same issue each on a number of different LCD panels-- so I'm a little hesitant to blame something wrong with the terminals and rather wonder about the VGA-ness of the signal they produce. I gather from the specs that it should be producing a 800x480 @ 73 Hz signal. My monitors claim to do that and don't complain in any way... other than that the video is pretty dim and washed out. Is there an existance proof of one of these working with a modern (3 or 4 yr old) VGA LCD panel or were they only successful with pre-LCD CRT monitors for some reason? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 10 15:18:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 16:18:35 -0400 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FFC8E1B.40808@neurotica.com> On 07/10/2012 10:33 AM, Richard wrote: > In article <20120710063855.GB71546 at beast.freibergnet.de>, > Holm Tiffe writes: > >> I shot an Tek 611 Storage display lately (230820230720), is there >> documentaion available somewhere? > > Thanks to Bob Rosenbloom sending me a copy physically, I just scanned > this for bitsavers, but Al hasn't moved it there yet. You can get it > here (warning, not a permanent URL) > I'll grab that too, as I have a 611 that's a basket case. Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 10 15:20:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 16:20:06 -0400 Subject: web app programming languages (Re: PDP-11 Wiki) In-Reply-To: References: <4FFB2DCC.8090407@bitsavers.org> <4FFC2943.50802@telegraphics.com.au> <604B584B-FC4F-4BD2-9B1C-1BC94CC79280@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <4FFC8E76.9090904@neurotica.com> On 07/10/2012 10:46 AM, Richard wrote: >> It could be worse. PHP could have never happened, and IIS/ASP could have >> filled that niche instead. > > ASP (not ASP.NET) is over a decade deprecated by now. Having > programmed in all 3 (PHP, ASP, ASP.NET), ASP.NET is *much* more > productive and has *much* better development tools. > > The only people I know that express the same opinion as yourself are > people who are either i) anti-MS bigots like Dave McGuire, so there's > no point in attempting to have a rational discussion with them, ii) > make their living from PHP, or iii) have never actually used ASP.NET > and they are just /. "me too" types. Hey, it's not MY fault you don't recognize vendor lock-in when you see it. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 10 15:21:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 16:21:32 -0400 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <20120710193510.GB38544@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC5F08.3020204@bitsavers.org> <20120710193510.GB38544@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <4FFC8ECC.1000702@neurotica.com> On 07/10/2012 03:35 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>> This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that >>> must be related to the BNC network. >> >> If the 300 uses an AMD LANCE like the 200, it would be an AMD 7992 SIA >> >> The schematics of the 200 are at >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/ethernet/MP01828_DSRVC-A_EngrDrws_Jul86 > > After replacing the broken Chip trough the 7992 it seems to be working > again: Wow, nicely done...congrats on the fast repair and good score! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 10 15:22:50 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 13:22:50 -0700 Subject: A few 85xx uploads Message-ID: <4FFC8F1A.50907@bitsavers.org> under http://bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix Changed 856x to 8560 and created 8550 and 8562 directories There is an untested DOS/50 boot disk image under 8550 It's probably OK. The files extracted correctly on the 8562 Under 8562: The boot block for the 8562 (which appears to be different from the one on the V2 update floppy from the 8560) and a small program to create an IMD file with a payload from stdin, so you can, for example, make a floppy with a tarball that can be read on /dev/rfd0 on the 8562. Curiously, Tek didn't include dd with Tnix, so I'm going to tar over the source and stock V7 dd binary to see if an unmodified binary will run, and if not, compile it over there. I'm a little nervous that the 8562 stanalone utilities disk may be needed to restore the disk instead of the one from the 8560, since the boot doesn't work quite the same way (the 8562 reads /boot from the disk, while the 8560 just loads 'tnix') From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 19:18:49 2012 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 17:18:49 -0700 Subject: Shameless Classic parts trafficking Redux Message-ID: More cleaning my shed in 100+ degree weather, more Stuff on Ebay. These auction will go on at 6:00pm Tuesday. 251104992004 MFE 2500 serial Cassette tape transport 251104949909 PDP-11/73 in a BA11S chassis 251104980598 and 251104984450 NOS DEC RK05 replacement drive belt As always, please mention your a list member for an extra goody or two. Tom P From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jul 10 20:40:08 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 18:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC Radio Message-ID: <1341970808.16503.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Radio/PC. Not sure what it's called. Who has any? I have 2. Never turned either on, no power brick. Anyone w/specifics. Much much appreciated. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 21:20:01 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 22:20:01 -0400 Subject: IBM PC Radio In-Reply-To: <1341970808.16503.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1341970808.16503.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Radio/PC. Not sure what it's called. Who has any? I have 2. Never turned either on, no power brick. Anyone w/specifics. Much much appreciated. No specifics - I have been looking as well. PC Radios were meant to be used in warehouses and stores, for tasks like inventory control - you could wear one in a sling, so you count your whatzits, then enter the data. -- Will From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 21:35:10 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:35:10 -0700 Subject: any VT525 terminal users? with LCD? In-Reply-To: <20120710201715.GI13753@n0jcf.net> References: <20120710201715.GI13753@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: I wasn't too thrilled with the image quality of a VT525 on an LCD panel the last time I tried it. Bad enough that I thought I should keep a CRT around to use with it. I'll have to try it again and take a look. I don't remember it being dim. More of a scaling artifact issue if I remember correctly. I -Glen From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Jul 10 21:57:55 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC Radio In-Reply-To: References: <1341970808.16503.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1341975475.63794.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: William Donzelli > Radio/PC. Not sure what it's called. Who has any? I have 2. Never turned either on, no power brick. Anyone w/specifics. Much much appreciated. No specifics - I have been looking as well. PC Radios were meant to be used in warehouses and stores, for tasks like inventory control - you could wear one in a sling, so you count your whatzits, then enter the data. C: Why are you looking? Do you have any? Any power supplies? I'm not even asking to sell, just the voltages on which pins. I can open it and figure it out I guess. I'm planning on leaving the state for good, was going through my storage units, and in a frenzy starting chucking things (a few things I swore I'd never part with, and am already sorry). Glad I didn't fling these or the Minisports. Can power those bad boys up either. ?Uncle Roger has them. I never e-mailed him. His site is ooooold. There's some kind of info on fixya also. Too worn out to start banging their ears over it. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Jul 10 23:58:07 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:58:07 -0700 Subject: Paul Allen's Living Computer Museum Message-ID: <000c01cd5f21$c34c7620$49e56260$@comcast.net> The Seattle Retro-Computing Society meets in Paul Allen's Living Computer Museum the forth Saturday of the month. (http://www.seattleretrocomputing.com ) We missed a couple of meetings because the building was being remodeled. Work is starting on museum exhibits for the general public. There is no announced opening date yet. You can request a tour of the existing site on their web site. http://www.pdpplanet.com I have posted some photos of the museum and our club meetings. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Living_Computer_Museum/SRCS.html Michael Holley (There may be a duplicate of this message.) From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 11 01:02:15 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:02:15 +0200 Subject: any VT525 terminal users? with LCD? In-Reply-To: <20120710201715.GI13753@n0jcf.net> References: <20120710201715.GI13753@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <8a01ecd1c8a6dc5f04f817948b64b034.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > > I saved a couple DEC VT525 terminals a year ago or so from a barn and > after cleaning them up, they seem to work mostly with the exception that > the video they produce on a number of different VGA LCD panels is quite > dim. Both terminals exhibit the same issue each on a number of different > LCD panels-- so I'm a little hesitant to blame something wrong with the > terminals and rather wonder about the VGA-ness of the signal they produce. > > I gather from the specs that it should be producing a 800x480 @ 73 > Hz signal. My monitors claim to do that and don't complain in any > way... other than that the video is pretty dim and washed out. > > Is there an existance proof of one of these working with a modern (3 or > 4 yr old) VGA LCD panel or were they only successful with pre-LCD CRT > monitors for some reason? > > Chris > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > Yes, I have 2 of those, sans the cartridge. I use an HP 1740 LCD screen and that works for me. The keyboard I use is a LK97-W Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From holleymj at comcast.net Tue Jul 10 23:52:11 2012 From: holleymj at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 21:52:11 -0700 Subject: Paul Allen's Living Computer Museum Message-ID: <000b01cd5f20$efc32bf0$cf4983d0$@comcast.net> The Seattle Retro-Computing Society meets in Paul Allen's Living Computer Museum the forth Saturday of the month. (http://www.seattleretrocomputing.com ) We missed a couple of meetings because the building was being remodeled. Work is starting on museum exhibits for the general public. There is no announced opening date yet. You can request a tour of the existing site on their web site. http://www.pdpplanet.com I have posted some photos of the museum and our club meetings. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/Living_Computer_Museum/SRCS.html Michael Holley From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 11 01:09:46 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:09:46 +0200 Subject: VMS 2.5 Message-ID: <6178c91a1bdd214f9e34d70b4a8fd3cd.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I have found a TK50 tape which has written 'VMS 2.5' on it. I have no read the tape so I do not know if contains anything at all. If it does contain something, it could be an installation duplicate or just a backup of some system. Free for who wants it, I only ask for the postage fee to be paid (approx $10 - $15 for worldwide shipping) Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 01:22:05 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (iamcamiel at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 06:22:05 +0000 Subject: VMS 2.5 Message-ID: <759659828-1341987698-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1284000754-@b25.c2.bise7.blackberry> Hoi ed, Die wil ik graag meenemen als ik de boekjes ophaal. Camiel. ------Origineel bericht------ Van:E. Groenenberg Afzender:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Beantwoorden:General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: VMS 2.5 Verzonden: 11 juli 2012 08:09 I have found a TK50 tape which has written 'VMS 2.5' on it. I have no read the tape so I do not know if contains anything at all. If it does contain something, it could be an installation duplicate or just a backup of some system. Free for who wants it, I only ask for the postage fee to be paid (approx $10 - $15 for worldwide shipping) Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. Verzonden vanaf mijn BlackBerry?-toestel van T-Mobile From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 01:28:36 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:28:36 +0200 Subject: VMS 2.5 In-Reply-To: <759659828-1341987698-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1284000754-@b25.c2.bise7.blackberry> References: <759659828-1341987698-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1284000754-@b25.c2.bise7.blackberry> Message-ID: My apologies for the reply to the entire group on this. Top-posted, no less... Cheers, Camiel From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 11 01:36:57 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:36:57 +0200 Subject: VMS 2.5 Message-ID: <27576c6080288ff05f874ffd5b0773e2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Tape has been claimed. > > I have found a TK50 tape which has written 'VMS 2.5' on it. > > I have no read the tape so I do not know if contains anything > at all. If it does contain something, it could be an installation > duplicate or just a backup of some system. > > Free for who wants it, I only ask for the postage fee to be paid > (approx $10 - $15 for worldwide shipping) > > Ed > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 11 01:38:34 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:38:34 +0200 Subject: VMS 2.5 In-Reply-To: <759659828-1341987698-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1284000754- @b25.c2.bise7.blackberry> References: <759659828-1341987698-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1284000754-@b25.c2.bise7.blackberry> Message-ID: <8d866932eec588a19629c0325c5756c2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hallo Camiel, Ok, ik zet 'm erbij. Had al wel een 2e liefhebber, die was net 10 seconden later. Groeten, Ed > Hoi ed, > > Die wil ik graag meenemen als ik de boekjes ophaal. > > Camiel. > ------Origineel bericht------ > Van:E. Groenenberg > Afzender:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Beantwoorden:General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: VMS 2.5 > Verzonden: 11 juli 2012 08:09 > > > I have found a TK50 tape which has written 'VMS 2.5' on it. > > I have no read the tape so I do not know if contains anything > at all. If it does contain something, it could be an installation > duplicate or just a backup of some system. > > Free for who wants it, I only ask for the postage fee to be paid > (approx $10 - $15 for worldwide shipping) > > Ed > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. > > > > Verzonden vanaf mijn BlackBerry?-toestel van T-Mobile > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From reiche at ls-al.eu Wed Jul 11 02:19:47 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 09:19:47 +0200 Subject: Pro 3xx questions (was Re: Megahaul on July 4th) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201207110719.q6B7JlvJ005107@ls-al.eu> Amardeep S Chana wrote: > > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > At a quick glance, those keyboard converters seem to mostly be going the > > wrong way for us. THey are to use strange keyboards on hosts with PS/2 > > interfaces. So there's anm itnerface to link an LK201 to a PC, but not > > the reverse. > > > > Odd... Most of the time it's the keyboard, not the classic computer, > > that's either misisng or hard to repair. Converters to link PS/2 > > keybaords to classics would eb a lot more useful. > > My guess would be they're intended for people who want to emulate the > classic system on a modern machine but utilize the original system's > keyboard. It's not entirely unlike those PS/2 connector 3270 keyboards to > use with IBM terminal emulators. > I, for example, simply love the Sun model5 keyboards. Love 'm! So I'd be very happy to just be able to plug it in in every computer I have and use it. But, alas, not enough model5 boards laying around here, to be able to misuse it every day. re, Sander From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 11 02:24:00 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 09:24:00 +0200 Subject: VMS 2.5 In-Reply-To: <8d866932eec588a19629c0325c5756c2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <759659828-1341987698-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1284000754-@b25.c2.bise7.blackberry> <8d866932eec588a19629c0325c5756c2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <24b38a1c1360ec6fd8a548ee0ae0266b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Grr, not meant to be public...... > Hallo Camiel, > > Ok, ik zet 'm erbij. Had al wel een 2e liefhebber, die was net > 10 seconden later. > > Groeten, > > Ed > >> Hoi ed, >> >> Die wil ik graag meenemen als ik de boekjes ophaal. >> >> Camiel. >> ------Origineel bericht------ >> Van:E. Groenenberg >> Afzender:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Beantwoorden:General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Onderwerp: VMS 2.5 >> Verzonden: 11 juli 2012 08:09 >> >> >> I have found a TK50 tape which has written 'VMS 2.5' on it. >> >> I have no read the tape so I do not know if contains anything >> at all. If it does contain something, it could be an installation >> duplicate or just a backup of some system. >> >> Free for who wants it, I only ask for the postage fee to be paid >> (approx $10 - $15 for worldwide shipping) >> >> Ed >> >> -- >> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. >> Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. >> >> >> >> Verzonden vanaf mijn BlackBerry?-toestel van T-Mobile >> >> > > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jul 11 02:47:58 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 09:47:58 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > a friend of mine sent me an DEC Server 300 which he saved from the > > dumpster. There is a triangle in the bottom that some sharp metall edge > > must have made. This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that > > I've never worked on one of thsse, but I'll take a guess... > > Is there an AM7990 (40 pin DIL) on the board? If so, my first guess is > that this is an AM7992. See if the pins match up. > > -tony There is a Siemens chip, a 7990 compatible on the board, it is a later revision of the AMD Lance. I've already replaces the 7992, Set up Mop on my FreeBSD host and the DECserver is booting, displaying the cycling 8. Now I have to fiddele with some modular Plugs, don't have any MMJ cables.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jul 11 02:50:27 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 09:50:27 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120710214243.f677390d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710214243.f677390d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120711075027.GG85176@beast.freibergnet.de> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:38:55 +0200 > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > I shot an Tek 611 Storage display lately (230820230720), is there > > documentaion available somewhere? Has someone a left over D/A converter > > Card for an QBUS 11? > I have a: > M7651 DRV11-WA Q 18/22-bit DMA general purpose parallel interface > M7651 Refs: EK-DRVWA-UG, MP-01582, ZJ244-RZ, uNOTE N#041 > Maybe you can use it to interface some generic DAC to it? > As I still have to send some other stuff your way I could throw > the DRV11 into the pile. > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} No thanks Jochen. But the Idea is good. I have 2 parallel interface boards (with and w/o DMA) myself so I could at least try this way. The TEK 611 hasn't arrived jet, and that project isn't the first in the quee, so it will take a while. Still have to copy cour disks... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 11 05:17:14 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:17:14 +0200 Subject: VMS 2.5 In-Reply-To: <24b38a1c1360ec6fd8a548ee0ae0266b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <759659828-1341987698-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1284000754-@b25.c2.bise7.blackberry> <8d866932eec588a19629c0325c5756c2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <24b38a1c1360ec6fd8a548ee0ae0266b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <002101cd5f4e$5b1987a0$114c96e0$@xs4all.nl> Ach kan iedereen overkomen...;-P -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens E. Groenenberg > Verzonden: woensdag 11 juli 2012 9:24 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: VMS 2.5 > > > Grr, not meant to be public...... > > > Hallo Camiel, > > > > Ok, ik zet 'm erbij. Had al wel een 2e liefhebber, die was net > > 10 seconden later. > > > > Groeten, > > > > Ed > > > >> Hoi ed, > >> > >> Die wil ik graag meenemen als ik de boekjes ophaal. > >> > >> Camiel. > >> ------Origineel bericht------ > >> Van:E. Groenenberg > >> Afzender:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > >> Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Beantwoorden:General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Onderwerp: VMS 2.5 > >> Verzonden: 11 juli 2012 08:09 > >> > >> > >> I have found a TK50 tape which has written 'VMS 2.5' on it. > >> > >> I have no read the tape so I do not know if contains anything at all. > >> If it does contain something, it could be an installation duplicate > >> or just a backup of some system. > >> > >> Free for who wants it, I only ask for the postage fee to be paid > >> (approx $10 - $15 for worldwide shipping) > >> > >> Ed > >> > >> -- > >> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > >> Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. > >> > >> > >> > >> Verzonden vanaf mijn BlackBerryR-toestel van T-Mobile > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > > Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. > > > > > > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jul 11 06:19:40 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:19:40 +0100 Subject: Unknown card.. Message-ID: My dad turned this up the other day. He'd been tidying his desk and come across it! He's no idea where it came from, or what it's out of... Anybody got any ideas? Picture at http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/IMG_3002.JPG (708KB) It look a bit like an ISA card missing it's bracket but I've not got one to hand to compare it too. Label shows a horse, CP Computer Products, Power Products Division and a matrix printed "PM671R". Underside has "Artwork PC19640, REV.B. Detail PC19641. Assembly PC19642. G T P 244" in copper. Main chip is an AMD Z8530PC. There's a PAL and a MC1488 & 9, otherwise the rest is 74LS TTL. All socketed. 26 pin internal header. No external sockets. Date codes are mostly 1987. It certainly feels like some sort of RS232 serial card, based on the chips, but I've not seen one without an D-type socket on before. Any ideas? Anybody have a use for it? FTGH just pay postage. Rob From md.benson at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 06:34:00 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:34:00 +0100 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6138461395748624429@unknownmsgid> Did he ever have an Apple II or something of similar era? My wild stab in the dark is it's a serial interface card for an Apple II or similar. Whatever it was didn't have a convention of using PC-Style backplane brackets but instead had a ribbon cable hung out the back, which I believe was how some A II were. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson On 11 Jul 2012, at 12:25, Rob wrote: > My dad turned this up the other day. He'd been tidying his desk and > come across it! He's no idea where it came from, or what it's out > of... > > Anybody got any ideas? > > Picture at http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/IMG_3002.JPG (708KB) > > It look a bit like an ISA card missing it's bracket but I've not got > one to hand to compare it too. Label shows a horse, CP Computer > Products, Power Products Division and a matrix printed "PM671R". > Underside has "Artwork PC19640, REV.B. Detail PC19641. Assembly > PC19642. G T P 244" in copper. > > Main chip is an AMD Z8530PC. There's a PAL and a MC1488 & 9, > otherwise the rest is 74LS TTL. All socketed. 26 pin internal header. > No external sockets. Date codes are mostly 1987. > > It certainly feels like some sort of RS232 serial card, based on the > chips, but I've not seen one without an D-type socket on before. > > Any ideas? Anybody have a use for it? FTGH just pay postage. > > Rob From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 06:40:55 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 13:40:55 +0200 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 1:19 PM, Rob wrote: > Picture at http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/IMG_3002.JPG (708KB) > > It look a bit like an ISA card missing it's bracket but I've not got Not really; an 8-bit ISA card has 62 fingers, this card has 50. It looks a bit like an Apple II card, but the location of the fingers used for power looks wrong to me, so it's probably not that either. > one to hand to compare it too. Label shows a horse, CP Computer > Products, Power Products Division and a matrix printed "PM671R". PM671R is the part number of the DC/DC convertor (5 v -> 12 v) that label's on. Camiel. > > Main chip is an AMD Z8530PC. There's a PAL and a MC1488 & 9, > otherwise the rest is 74LS TTL. All socketed. 26 pin internal header. > No external sockets. Date codes are mostly 1987. > > It certainly feels like some sort of RS232 serial card, based on the > chips, but I've not seen one without an D-type socket on before. > > Any ideas? Anybody have a use for it? FTGH just pay postage. > > Rob From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jul 11 06:54:38 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:54:38 +0100 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: <6138461395748624429@unknownmsgid> References: <6138461395748624429@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On 11 July 2012 12:34, Mark Benson wrote: > Did he ever have an Apple II or something of similar era? My wild stab > in the dark is it's a serial interface card for an Apple II or > similar. Whatever it was didn't have a convention of using PC-Style > backplane brackets but instead had a ribbon cable hung out the back, > which I believe was how some A II were. Hmm. That's a possibility - he never used an apple, but I know one passed through his hands a few years ago - it might be this relates to that, but it got lost at the time. On 11 July 2012 12:40, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> It look a bit like an ISA card missing it's bracket but I've not got > > Not really; an 8-bit ISA card has 62 fingers, this card has 50. It > looks a bit like an Apple II card, but the location of the fingers > used for power looks wrong to me, so it's probably not that either. Ah, as I said, I didn't have one to compare. It's a while since I've been playing with anything with ISA in it. The apple dad had briefly was, maybe, a IIe - would they be different? > PM671R is the part number of the DC/DC convertor (5 v -> 12 v) that label's on. Well it was the only obvious label on there! :-) Rob From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 07:58:42 2012 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 14:58:42 +0200 Subject: VMS 2.5 In-Reply-To: <002101cd5f4e$5b1987a0$114c96e0$@xs4all.nl> References: <759659828-1341987698-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1284000754-@b25.c2.bise7.blackberry> <8d866932eec588a19629c0325c5756c2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <24b38a1c1360ec6fd8a548ee0ae0266b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <002101cd5f4e$5b1987a0$114c96e0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: 1. Cool, but not everyone understands dutch ;) 2. I hope the happy new owner of the taoe will digitise it and push somewhere online, for the good of mankind ^^ -- Ola Hughson From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jul 11 08:44:44 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 15:44:44 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <4FFC8ECC.1000702@neurotica.com> References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC5F08.3020204@bitsavers.org> <20120710193510.GB38544@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC8ECC.1000702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120711134444.GB17829@beast.freibergnet.de> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 07/10/2012 03:35 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >>> This hit broke a 300mil 24pin DIL chip in the inside that > >>> must be related to the BNC network. > >> > >> If the 300 uses an AMD LANCE like the 200, it would be an AMD 7992 SIA > >> > >> The schematics of the 200 are at > >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/ethernet/MP01828_DSRVC-A_EngrDrws_Jul86 > > > > After replacing the broken Chip trough the 7992 it seems to be working > > again: > > Wow, nicely done...congrats on the fast repair and good score! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > THX, changing that chip wasn't really a problem. Now, after the help from you and crimping an adapter the DECserver talks to me: Local> Local -901- Initializing DECserver 300 08-00-2B-29-B0-B1 - ROM BL1.0.6 H/W 2 Local -953- Attempting to locate load host [ISO8802] Local -955- Host 00-00-92-90-09-8D located [ISO8802] Local -956- Requesting load from host 00-00-92-90-09-8D Local -903- Loading from host 00-00-92-90-09-8D Local -904- Image load complete Local - Telnet listener failed to bind socket Local - No internet address - SNMP not enabled ... after an return on the console port: DECserver 300 Terminal Server V2.2C (BL46-13) - LAT V5.1 (c) Copyright 1996, Digital Equipment Corporation - All Rights Reserved Please type HELP if you need assistance Enter username> Ok, entered holm, what else.. Local> Normally to cheange the ip address setup you have to rise the privielege: set priv Password> No I can enter a password 3 times before the unit logs me off :-( I've read that pressing the "Reset" switch while powering up the unit is setting the factory configuration, but this password question persists. Does anyone know the factory default user and password to set up that thing? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 09:00:11 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:00:11 +0200 Subject: VMS 2.5 In-Reply-To: References: <759659828-1341987698-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1284000754-@b25.c2.bise7.blackberry> <8d866932eec588a19629c0325c5756c2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <24b38a1c1360ec6fd8a548ee0ae0266b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <002101cd5f4e$5b1987a0$114c96e0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Ola Hughson wrote: > 1. Cool, but not everyone understands dutch ;) Yes, my apologies for the replies to the entire list. > 2. I hope the happy new owner of the taoe will digitise it and push > somewhere online, for the good of mankind ^^ Yes, provided that it actually has something of interest on it - like an installation kit - that is fully my intention (I am the new owner ;-) Camiel. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 09:02:22 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:02:22 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <20120711134444.GB17829@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC5F08.3020204@bitsavers.org> <20120710193510.GB38544@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC8ECC.1000702@neurotica.com> <20120711134444.GB17829@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > set priv > Password> > No I can enter a password 3 times before the unit logs me off :-( > > I've read that pressing the "Reset" switch while powering up the unit is > setting the factory configuration, but this password question persists. > Does anyone know the factory default user and password to set up that > thing? I think it's "system" Camiel. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 09:13:05 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 15:13:05 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6 July 2012 19:49, Tony Duell wrote: > > Not a rhyme, but something I still use to covnert temperatures from > celsius to 'the understandable scale' (as one weatherman put it) is > 'double it and add 30'. No, I don't use that whn calibrating a > thermocouple, or for colour photographic procesisng, or.. but for the sort > of temperatures used i neather forcasts it's accurate enough and is > trivial to do in your head. How bizarre. We're about the same age, I think, and in the early 1970s I was taught both imperial and metric. I use a mix of both in my head - lengths in feet make more intuitive sense than metres, distances in miles and speeds in mph rather than km or kph, for instance, although I'm quite happy in both. I can't remember how many yards in a mile or ounces in a pound or pounds in a stone or any of that rubbish though, so I use metric for all those sorts of things unless it's a direct comparison - e.g. British male clothes are sized in inches so I just go with the flow. I have a 38" waist and a 36" inside leg because that's what all the shops sell. OTOH I'm 6'2" tall or 1.88m depending on who's asking - either is fine. But Fahrenheit never made any sense to me at all. One end of the scale is entirely arbitrary, the other is an entirely different measure and one that they measured wrongly anyway. It's seemed stupid and random and senseless since I was a small child and I've never ever used it for anything. Celsius is obvious and logical and rational. 0? is freezing, 100? is boiling, bosh, there you are. Fahrenheit is a scale where six apples equals one and a half times the colour of the A three octaves above middle C, so long as it's a Tuesday, and I have never ever been able to fathom (haha) it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 09:16:57 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 15:16:57 +0100 Subject: My RetroChallenge 2012 entry In-Reply-To: References: <4FF9F3C2.5040107@compsys.to> <4FF994D6.23421.18547C3@cclist.sydex.com> <4FFAE80F.30006@verizon.net> <20120709083350.A70316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 9 July 2012 16:49, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 11:38 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> > You're not really old school unless the only thing that comes to mind >>> > when the term "RPG" is used is "what goes in column 1?" >> On Mon, 9 Jul 2012, Keith Monahan wrote: >>> Is this a D&D reference? >> >> What is D&D? >> Is that a debugger for Report Program Generator messes? > > I really have no idea which messages in this thread are serious and > which are sarcastic, but to help out "old school" and "new school" > alike (i.e., to disambiguate) > > If you were a teenager after about 1978, RPG probably means > "Role Playing Game" to you. If you learned to program before > 1978, RPG probably means "Report Program Generator" to you. > > D&D in this thread means "Dungeons and Dragons". It's likely > that many on this list have played it, but it's also equally > likely that many have not. > > So there you have it. > > If this has all been thinly-veiled puns, my apologies - it was too > subtle for me. Ohhhhhh! Thanks - the thread makes a lot more sense now. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 09:32:08 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:32:08 -0400 Subject: TSX-Plus docs Message-ID: I have quite a pile of TSX-plus docs that need to find a good home - so far three or four binders. TSX is an extension of RT-11. Please contact me off list. Bitsavers has dibs. Free for postage (media rate should not be too bad). -- Will From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 09:37:12 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:37:12 +0200 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <6138461395748624429@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Raymond Wiker wrote: > On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Rob wrote: > >> On 11 July 2012 12:34, Mark Benson wrote: >> > Did he ever have an Apple II or something of similar era? My wild stab >> > in the dark is it's a serial interface card for an Apple II or >> > similar. Whatever it was didn't have a convention of using PC-Style >> > backplane brackets but instead had a ribbon cable hung out the back, >> > which I believe was how some A II were. >> >> Hmm. That's a possibility - he never used an apple, but I know one >> passed through his hands a few years ago - it might be this relates to >> that, but it got lost at the time. >> >> On 11 July 2012 12:40, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> >> It look a bit like an ISA card missing it's bracket but I've not got >> > >> > Not really; an 8-bit ISA card has 62 fingers, this card has 50. It >> > looks a bit like an Apple II card, but the location of the fingers >> > used for power looks wrong to me, so it's probably not that either. >> >> Ah, as I said, I didn't have one to compare. It's a while since I've >> been playing with anything with ISA in it. >> >> The apple dad had briefly was, maybe, a IIe - would they be different? >> >> > PM671R is the part number of the DC/DC convertor (5 v -> 12 v) that >> label's on. >> >> Well it was the only obvious label on there! :-) >> >> Rob >> > > The Zilog 8530 is a serial communications device, and the 1488/1489 are > level shifters that were commonly used for RS232 levels. The header plug > has 2*13 pins, which matches the 25-pin RS232 connectors commonly used back > then. The card appears to have been made in 1987 (from the date codes on > the chips). > > So, probably an Apple II serial card, given that the board connector seems > to match the Apple II expansion bus. On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very likely an Apple II card. Camiel. From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jul 11 09:44:04 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:44:04 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: References: <20120710152433.GB20887@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC5F08.3020204@bitsavers.org> <20120710193510.GB38544@beast.freibergnet.de> <4FFC8ECC.1000702@neurotica.com> <20120711134444.GB17829@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120711144404.GC17829@beast.freibergnet.de> Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > set priv > > Password> > > No I can enter a password 3 times before the unit logs me off :-( > > > > I've read that pressing the "Reset" switch while powering up the unit is > > setting the factory configuration, but this password question persists. > > Does anyone know the factory default user and password to set up that > > thing? > > I think it's "system" > > Camiel. Almost correct Camiel, found it in the meantime here: http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/236 The Acess password is ACCESS, the Privilege Password is SYSTEM, both are uppercase. Thx, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From md.benson at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 09:49:54 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 15:49:54 +0100 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <6138461395748624429@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <1829604078168233540@unknownmsgid> On 11 Jul 2012, at 15:42, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II > slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very > likely an Apple II card. > > Camiel. Does that mean I was right?? That was a totally off-the-top guess based on next to nothing... I have a IIe Enhanced but I took the lid off once and used it twice 5 years ago. Not a bad guess... ;) -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 11 09:52:52 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 07:52:52 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: <4FF5E5D8.18516.252BB77@cclist.sydex.com>, , Message-ID: <4FFD30D4.24378.31A932@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jul 2012 at 15:13, Liam Proven wrote: > Fahrenheit is a scale where six apples equals one and a half times the > colour of the A three octaves above middle C, so long as it's a > Tuesday, and I have never ever been able to fathom (haha) it. Well, if you want a scale that makes sense, try specifying your temperatures in Kelvin. The freezing and boiling points of water is just SO artificial--you need pure water, you have to be careful not to supercool or superheat it, it has to be at a specific atmospheric pressure, etc. 0 degrees K, now there's something we all can agree on! --Chuck (It's morning here, so the temperature is still only about 290K) From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 10:10:14 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:10:14 +0100 Subject: bitmapped computers - spectrum (was: Today, in the bus to work...) In-Reply-To: <201207051906.q65J6Usg037217@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4FF332D8.7050808@bluewin.ch> <201207040419.q644Jj81090406@billy.ezwind.net> <201207051906.q65J6Usg037217@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 5 July 2012 19:53, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> The Spectrum isn't really bitmapped. IIRC you define up to 20? 8x8 pixel >> tiles (one bit per pixel) and can draw them in place of characters (i.e. >> at any multiple-of-8 pixel vertical or horizontal offset from 0) with the >> same color and bright/flash attributes as normal characters. That was the >> case in BASIC, at least, maybe you could do more in assembly, but I don't >> recall seeing a frame buffer in the memory map... > > When the Spectrum came out, I had the impression that it was a text mode > machine with redefinable characters like many of its competitors. Given > that this was a popular hack to give the ZX81 "high resolution" graphics > and the way color is controlled in 8x8 pixel blocks, this was a > reasonable guess. But I learned otherwise a few years ago. > > The only hardware mode is a simple 256x192 bitmap starting at 0x4000 > which is modified by a 32x24 attribute map at 0x5800. The model > presented by Basic is what you described, but the model seen by assembly > language programs is very similar to what the Mac had. It's not really "the model presented by BASIC". I mean, yes, there are user-defined graphics (UDG) characters, but they weren't widely-used except in the very early days. Spectrum BASIC has direct access to individual pixel-plotting (PLOT command), line-drawing and arc-drawing (DRAW command), circle-drawing (CIRCLE command), and setting foreground and background colours (INK, PAPER, BRIGHT). You can also interrogate a point on the screen to find its status (set/reset) or colour (POINT command, IIRC - I'm not sure). Aside: This sort of functionality is why the 14-year-old version of me found the Commodore machines crippled to the point of utter un-usability and uselessness - none of this was possible in CBM BASIC. It all had to be done with PEEK and POKE commands directly manipulating memory locations. I'd already had a little experience of that on the PET machines and I did *not* want to go back. If you added Dr Andy Wright's Beta BASIC toolkit to your Spectrum, then you got graphics "modes" - you could choose a 6- or 5-pixel-wide font for 42 or 51 columns with a high degree of legibility, or 4-pixel characters and 64 columns with poor legibility, or 3-pixel characters without gaps between them for a fairly illegible 85 columns - but which permitted porting BASIC apps from expensive American "professional" machines with 80-column displays, or in word-processors, something which could show a full-width A4 page's worth of text. It also supported text windows with scrolling and other luxuries, and could store arrays in the RAMdisk of the Spectrum 128, meaning that your ~20KB basic program could manipulate ~80-90KB arrays in RAM - very snazzy stuff for 1985 or so. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 10:24:09 2012 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 17:24:09 +0200 Subject: VMS 2.5 In-Reply-To: References: <759659828-1341987698-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1284000754-@b25.c2.bise7.blackberry> <8d866932eec588a19629c0325c5756c2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <24b38a1c1360ec6fd8a548ee0ae0266b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <002101cd5f4e$5b1987a0$114c96e0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: 2012/7/11 Camiel Vanderhoeven > > Yes, provided that it actually has something of interest on it - like > an installation kit - that is fully my intention (I am the new owner > ;-) > > Camiel. > -- Ola Hughson From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 11 10:47:12 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:47:12 -0700 Subject: TSX-Plus docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FFDA000.2000301@bitsavers.org> On 7/11/12 7:32 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > I have quite a pile of TSX-plus docs that need to find a good home - > so far three or four binders. TSX is an extension of RT-11. Please > contact me off list. Bitsavers has dibs. dibs did I forget about this when you were out here? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 11 10:55:25 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 08:55:25 -0700 Subject: Tnix a.out Message-ID: <4FFDA1ED.3080201@bitsavers.org> Looks like Tnix has a normal PDP-11 a.out. dd copied over ran OK and the stock dd.c from the V7 source distribution compiled and ran. Discovered more tools that are missing (like nm and strip) This is interesting because the Tnix cross-development tools I've recovered (and that others might have on floppy) should be able to be run under SIMH. So if there are old development project sources floating around, they should be rebuildable without a 856x From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 11 11:12:09 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:12:09 -0600 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 Message-ID: According to the documentation for TECO v40: ^B (caret/B) is equivalent to the current date via the following equations: OS/8: ^B = (((month*32)+day)*8)+((year-1970)&7)+k where k = 4096 if year>1977 and k=0 otherwise RT-11: ^B = (((month*32)+day)*32)+year-1972 RSTS/E: ^B = ((year-1970)*1000)+day within year RSX-11: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day VAX/VMS: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day TOPS-10: ^B = (((year-1964)*12+month-1)*31+day-1) Notice how the year is added as the least significant bits for OS/8 and RT-11. For OS/8, you only get *3* bits for the year plus a high 4K bit set if the year is out of range? Does this mean years higher than 1977 are encoded as 4096+(year-1977)? For RT-11, notice how year-1972 is packed into *5* bits (0..31), so years after 1972+31=2003 start carrying over into the bits for the month and day. Can anyone with RT-11 or OS/8 and TECO v40 verify what is described above? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 11:35:04 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:35:04 -0400 Subject: TSX-Plus docs In-Reply-To: <4FFDA000.2000301@bitsavers.org> References: <4FFDA000.2000301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > dibs > did I forget about this when you were out here? No, this is new. I am finally going through the Joe Heck DECpaper he offered a year or two back. There are some good bits in it, including some catalogs listing some stuff that I do not think ever left the lab (VT27? Apparently a VT52 with a detachable keyboard). Anyway, one of these year Western roadtrips will probably be devoted to hauling a bunch of stuff for you to scan (or maybe we can convince Bruce to do some to lighten the load). I am about half done cataloging the IBM stuff (although apparently three more boxes will show up today from the Fochtman estate - a separate project, since CHM has dibs on them), then I start with CDC, then DEC. I think at this point the only things of mine you have that I actually want back are those CDC manuals for the RJE station, and that PERQ disk. No hurry on either at all. -- Will From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Jul 11 12:25:04 2012 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 13:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: live webcast to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Telstar Message-ID: <50258.519b5473.3d2f10f0@aol.com> live webcast to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Telstar Webcasts The National Air and Space Museum offers live webcasts of select public programs. Please check the schedule below for programs that offer a live webcast and visit this page to view the webcast. (http://airandspace.si.edu/imagedetail.cfm?imageID=3587) Next Webcast: _Telstar 50th Anniversary_ (http://airandspace.si.edu/events/eventDetail.cfm?eventID=4057) Thursday, July 12, 2012, 1:30 pm Refresh this page near the start time of the next event to view the live webcast. View previously recorded events in the _Webcast Archive_ (http://airandspace.si.edu/events/lectures/webcast/archive.cfm) . Upcoming Webcasts: 07/12/2012 - _Telstar 50th Anniversary_ (http://airandspace.si.edu/events/eventDetail.cfm?eventID=4057) - 1:30 pm live webcast to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Telstar Thursday, July 12th between 1:30 and 4pm EST (1730-2000 UT) there will be a live webcast to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Telstar. The National Air and Space Museum's Space History and Education divisions, in collaboration with the French Embassy, will host a symposium to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Telstar satellite, representing the birth of global telecommunications. The symposium will be presented in two parts. The first is a half-hour satellite television connection between the Museum and the Pleumeur-Bodou Tele communications Museum in France to commemorate the first global transmission of a television signal. Speakers include Secretary of the Smithsonian Wayne Clough and French Ambassador to the United States Fran?ois Delattre. The second part of the symposium features three sessions, with historians and experts from industry and government, discussing major aspects of the Telstar project and its impact on the development of global communications. The event also will include footage from the original 1962 broadcast. Telstar 1 launched on July 10, 1962 from Cape Canaveral and was the first privately sponsored spacefaring mission. It handled a variety of transmissions, including telephone, fax, data, still pictures, and television signals, from several locations across the United States and Europe. Additional information on the program and the history of Telstar, is available on a _website_ (http://telstar50.org/) developed by the Embassy of France. Be sure to Check SMECC MUSEUM TELSTAR GOODIES _http://www.smecc.org/telstar_photo_album.htm_ (http://www.smecc.org/telstar_photo_album.htm) [ _John Pierce / Telstar_ (http://www.smecc.org/john_pierce1.htm) ] ]_A. C. Dickieson_ (http://www.smecc.org/a__c__dickieson.htm) ] _James Early / TELSTAR_ (http://www.smecc.org/james_early___telstar.htm) ] _Memorabilia / TELSTAR_ (http://www.smecc.org/memorabilia___telstar.htm) ] _Telstar Broadcasts_ (http://www.smecc.org/telstar_broadcasts.htm) ] _W.J.Bray - UK_ (http://www.smecc.org/w_j_bray_-_uk.htm) ] _K.D. Smith Bell Solar Batteries TELSTAR_ (http://www.smecc.org/k_d__smith__bell_solar_batteries_telstar.htm) ] _TELSTAR - Joe Meek_ (http://www.smecc.org/telstar_-_joe_meek.htm) ] _Eugene O'Neill - TELSTAR_ (http://www.smecc.org/eugene_o'niell_-_telstar.htm) ] On the 12th see the Live Webcast or the archive later at below link Live Webcast _http://airandspace.si.edu/events/lectures/webcast_ (http://airandspace.si.edu/events/lectures/webcast) From spedraja at ono.com Wed Jul 11 12:33:31 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 19:33:31 +0200 Subject: Tnix a.out In-Reply-To: <4FFDA1ED.3080201@bitsavers.org> References: <4FFDA1ED.3080201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Are there some kind of emulation project around these Tektronix computers/devices ? Regards SPc. 2012/7/11 Al Kossow > Looks like Tnix has a normal PDP-11 a.out. > > dd copied over ran OK and the stock dd.c from the V7 source distribution > compiled > and ran. > > Discovered more tools that are missing (like nm and strip) > > This is interesting because the Tnix cross-development tools I've recovered > (and that others might have on floppy) should be able to be run under SIMH. > > So if there are old development project sources floating around, they > should > be rebuildable without a 856x > > From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jul 11 12:39:45 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:39:45 -0500 Subject: any VT525 terminal users? with LCD? In-Reply-To: <01OHQ2CXY94I000XSR@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OHQ2CXY94I000XSR@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20120711173945.GA18546@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (07/11/2012 at 12:39PM +0100), Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > >I wasn't too thrilled with the image quality of a VT525 on an LCD panel the > >last time I tried it. Bad enough that I thought I should keep a CRT around > >to use with it. I'll have to try it again and take a look. I don't > >remember it being dim. More of a scaling artifact issue if I remember > >correctly. I > > > > I don't have a VT525 but I did try a newish LCD panel on an Alphaserver 1000A > with a Trio S3 VGA graphics card. > > The results were very poor with stationary vertical corrugations and difficult > to read text. > > I found a tweakable control on the LCD setup menu - I can't remember what it > was called and can't check now - maybe it was "clock rate" or something like > that. Whatever it was, adjusting it made a great improvement to the display. OK. Thanks Peter and others who responded. I'll try turning some more "knobs" on the LCDs and see if I can make an improvement. It does seem like a clocking or refresh rate sort of issue which is why I wondered if the '525 worked better with a CRT than an LCD. Maybe I'll have to get a VGA to HDMI converter and hook it to a 53" big screen and see how that looks ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 11 13:10:34 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 11:10:34 -0700 Subject: Tnix a.out In-Reply-To: References: <4FFDA1ED.3080201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FFDC19A.7000500@bitsavers.org> On 7/11/12 10:33 AM, SPC wrote: > Are there some kind of emulation project around these Tektronix > computers/devices ? > I will be letting the MESS folks know about the documentation and rom dumps once I have the work finished. I just found a service manual for the 8562 and will be adding that information to the scans on bitsavers. The hardware for the 856x is a lot like the Terak in that the I/O is incompatible with DECs, and there aren't any driver sources around. So right now it's just getting as much information collected as I can find so that someone might have a chance of doing something in the future. Considering how many Tek development systems and Teraks were sold, I'm surprised at how long it's taken me to get this far. I was looking at some of my old emails and I have been working on tracking this stuff down for almost 10 years. It did turn out that getting those two 8560s in May was pretty important for both of the projects. I discovered that there were Terak floppies mixed in, and that the seller had a Terak monitor and keyboard. He had sold the CPU sepratately :-( I've not actually been able to get the 8560s to work, but it did prompt me to dig out the 8550 and a pair of 8562s that I had in storage and was able to prod one of them into running after I had the 8560 service manual and Tnix documentation that came as part of the eBay lot. From gm10 at consulnix.com Wed Jul 11 13:52:58 2012 From: gm10 at consulnix.com (Garrett Meiers) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 13:52:58 -0500 Subject: Xerox 820 Keyboard for parts? Message-ID: Hi, Been lurking for a month or two, and have been enjoying the conversations. I was curious if anybody had a Xerox 820 keyboard laying around that wasn't needed. Or parts to one. I have one that needs a switch replaced. Ideally, a right CTRL key would be handy too, but I might be able to salvage mine. The keyboard assembly is made by Maxi-Switch Co. with a PN of 630107-02. I don't have a PN for the switches themselves, but they look like this: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/489067/test/20120709_154136.jpg Thanks in advance! Garrett Meiers From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jul 11 14:10:02 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:10:02 +0200 Subject: Tek 611 In-Reply-To: <20120711075027.GG85176@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120710063855.GB71546@beast.freibergnet.de> <20120710214243.f677390d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120711075027.GG85176@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120711211002.f2bb2a08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 09:50:27 +0200 Holm Tiffe wrote: > No thanks Jochen. But the Idea is good. > I have 2 parallel interface boards (with and w/o DMA) myself so > I could at least try this way. OK. I see. You are well equiped in this depatement. > Still have to copy cour disks... No need to hurry. I was waiting for these disks to appear for 10 years. One month more or less doesn't count. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 11 14:56:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 20:56:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Jul 11, 12 09:47:58 am Message-ID: > There is a Siemens chip, a 7990 compatible on the board, it is a later > revision of the AMD Lance. > I've already replaces the 7992, Set up Mop on my FreeBSD host and the Good guess then :-) Well done on fixing it. Where on earth did you find a 7992 so quickly? > DECserver is booting, displaying the cycling 8. > > Now I have to fiddele with some modular Plugs, don't have any MMJ cables.. Most of the modular plug crim tools wil lcrimp MMJs too (the cheap-ish one I have certainly will), so you could make your own cables. When I needed to connect to a DEC MMJ serial port and didn't have the plug or tool, I soldered the wires to the pins of the socket on the solder side ofthe PCB. But that was just one port... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 11 15:02:22 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:02:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: from "Rob" at Jul 11, 12 12:19:40 pm Message-ID: > Main chip is an AMD Z8530PC. There's a PAL and a MC1488 & 9, > otherwise the rest is 74LS TTL. All socketed. 26 pin internal header. > No external sockets. Date codes are mostly 1987. > > It certainly feels like some sort of RS232 serial card, based on the Well, the Z85030 is a fancy serial chip that does synchronous as well as asynchronous. And the 1488/1489 are, of coures, RS232 driver and receiver chips. > chips, but I've not seen one without an D-type socket on before. The 26 pin header might be wired for a straight-through cable to a DB25 conenctor. I can't think why it wasn't on the bracket, though Have you tried buzzing out the pins o nthe header togroudn and the 488/1489 to see if it could be that? As for what it's for, the obvious classic use fo the Z8530 is the Mac, so maybe Appletalk. But the buffers are wrong for that. Maybe to talk to an X25 network or soemthing? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 11 15:21:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:21:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 11, 12 03:13:05 pm Message-ID: > We're about the same age, I think, and in the early 1970s I was taught > both imperial and metric. I use a mix of both in my head - lengths in As I still do. My lathe is calibrated in inches (and 'thou' == 1/1000"), but I use metric twist drills and metric fasteners. For accurate work like that, I use my HP calculator which has the very useful 'unit management'. Incidentally, it is a great annoyance to machinists everywhere that there are 2.5.4mm in an inch. Point being that 254 factorises as 2*127 (127 is prime). SO do do exact metric screwcutting on an imperial lathe or vice versa you need a 127 tooth changewheel. However, there is a little trick... 8000/(3*21) is very close to 127 (in fact 8001/(3*127) _is_ 127). Since 8000 factorises easily into small numbers, you can get way with a 21 tooth changewheel as the only unusual one (all the otehr factsrs are easy to get from normal changewheels) for non-critical work. It's OK for making fasteners, etc, but not for making a micrometer screw :-)). You really didn't want to know that, right :-) > feet make more intuitive sense than metres, distances in miles and > speeds in mph rather than km or kph, for instance, although I'm quite > happy in both. I can't remember how many yards in a mile or ounces in I can rememerb all fo them. Mainly becasue a lot of the numbers come up elsewhwere. Thejre are 1760 yeards in a mile. 1760 is a numebr that is etched into my brain. Any idea waht? Well, it's 16*110, and most UARTs (serial chips) need a clock that's 16 times rthe baud rate). So 1760Hz is the clock freqeucny for 110 baud, as needed for taling to ASR33s. But there si a more practical point here. Although miles and yards are both units of length/distance, it's very rare fro the average pserson to need to convert between them. You use yards (feet and inches too) to measure your room for carpet or wallpaper. You use miles to work out how far it is to go to your relaitves (or wahtever). You don't have to relate them. Similarly you use poudns and ounces in the kitchen, stones when figuring out if you've eaten too much from said kitchen, and tons when you have to lift the family car (or whatever). Again, you don't need to relate them. > a pound or pounds in a stone or any of that rubbish though, so I use > metric for all those sorts of things unless it's a direct comparison - > e.g. British male clothes are sized in inches so I just go with the > flow. I have a 38" waist and a 36" inside leg because that's what all > the shops sell. OTOH I'm 6'2" tall or 1.88m depending on who's asking > - either is fine. I was once anked on a job applciation form for my 'weight'. I haev no idea why they wanted ot know this, I can't see how it can have any relevance to my abilities as an electronic designer. But I gave it anyway -- in Newtons. If they ask a scientist for a weight, it's going to come in units of weight (or force). If they want mass, they should ask for it :-) > But Fahrenheit never made any sense to me at all. One end of the scale > is entirely arbitrary, the other is an entirely different measure and > one that they measured wrongly anyway. It's seemed stupid and random It's not totally claear why fixed points were originally used. One version I heard went like this : He wanted all temperatures to be +ve, so he did indded make the coldest ice.salt mixture he could nad used that as a check (but not as the 0 of his scale) Melting ice was 32. Body temperature was 96. Point being there are then 64 degrees betwwen those points which is very easy to divide alogn a thermometer tube (dbisecting is a lot easier than dviding into tenths). > and senseless since I was a small child and I've never ever used it > for anything. Celsius is obvious and logical and rational. 0=B0 is > freezing, 100=B0 is boiling, bosh, there you are. Nto to me it isn't. Why pick water anyway? And waht is this insane love of multiples/powers of 10? I much prefer an absolute temperature scale. I normally use kelvin... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 15:50:11 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:50:11 -0400 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Main chip is an AMD Z8530PC. There's a PAL and a MC1488 & 9, >> otherwise the rest is 74LS TTL. All socketed. 26 pin internal header. >> No external sockets. Date codes are mostly 1987. >> >> It certainly feels like some sort of RS232 serial card, based on the > > Well, the Z85030 is a fancy serial chip that does synchronous as well as > asynchronous. Yep. Check the connector traces for RS232 pins 15 and 17 - if those are routed through from the 26-pin connector to a line receiver, it's entirely possible that this would be a sync serial port (or optionally async/sync depending on setting). There are a couple other sync serial arrangements, but the one that's common (for sync) and supported, involves the board receiving clocking from the modem/modem-eliminator. > As for what it's for, the obvious classic use fo the Z8530 is the Mac, so > maybe Appletalk. But the buffers are wrong for that. Maybe to talk to an > X25 network or soemthing? Perhaps. Ordinary Apple serial cards used 6551 ACIA UARTs. Those are a lot easier to talk to than the Z8530, so one would expect there would be a reason to use a Z8530 that's fancier than just needing to push bytes to a dumb device. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 11 16:45:26 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 15:45:26 -0600 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FFDF3F6.5020708@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/11/2012 2:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I much prefer an absolute temperature scale. I normally use kelvin... I use me as the scale, too hot turn on the AC until it feels nice, too cold turn up the fire. I smell smoke, turn off the fire! > -tony > As for imperial/metric I am lucky find kind of threaded items and nuts not in blister pack of ones and twos. Ben. PS. In search of spacers for 10-40 bolts today. From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jul 11 16:51:50 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:51:50 +0200 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FFDF576.7050000@update.uu.se> On 2012-07-11 18:12, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 25 > Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:12:09 -0600 > From: Richard > To:cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 > Message-ID: > > According to the documentation for TECO v40: > > ^B (caret/B) is equivalent to the current date > via the following equations: > > OS/8: ^B = (((month*32)+day)*8)+((year-1970)&7)+k > where k = 4096 if year>1977 > and k=0 otherwise > RT-11: ^B = (((month*32)+day)*32)+year-1972 > RSTS/E: ^B = ((year-1970)*1000)+day within year > RSX-11: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day > VAX/VMS: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day > TOPS-10: ^B = (((year-1964)*12+month-1)*31+day-1) > > Notice how the year is added as the least significant bits for OS/8 > and RT-11. > > For OS/8, you only get *3* bits for the year plus a high 4K bit set if > the year is out of range? Does this mean years higher than 1977 are > encoded as 4096+(year-1977)? > > For RT-11, notice how year-1972 is packed into *5* bits (0..31), so > years after 1972+31=2003 start carrying over into the bits for the month > and day. > > Can anyone with RT-11 or OS/8 and TECO v40 verify what is described above? I don't have an OS/8 system up and running right now, but OS/8 itself only keeps dates in that format. It has two additional bits stored at another location, which tells how the year is to be interpreted. I would suspect that TECO8 just sets the 13th bit if the two "century" bits in OS/8 is non-zero. So, years higher than 1977 are actually encoded as 4096+((year-1970) mod 8). Which, incidentally, is also exactly what the documentation you quote is saying... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Jul 11 17:16:37 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 18:16:37 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201207112216.q6BMGbhQ028384@rickmurphy.net> At 12:12 PM 7/11/2012, Richard wrote: >For OS/8, you only get *3* bits for the year plus a high 4K bit set if >the year is out of range? Does this mean years higher than 1977 are >encoded as 4096+(year-1977)? >... >Can anyone with RT-11 or OS/8 and TECO v40 verify what is described above? As already mentioned, this is consistent with OS/8 date code - 3 bits of year and two of extension. You can't enter dates later than 1999: .DATE 31-DEC-99 .DATE Friday December 31, 1999 .DATE 1-JAN-00 BAD DATE .DATE 1-JAN-2000 BAD DATE What 31-DEC-99 gives you from TECO: .R TECO *^B==$$ 16375 (12 * 32) + 31) * 8 = 3320 (1999 - 1970) & 7 = 5 3325 DEC, 6375 OCT plus 4096 gives 16375. You can't tell what this really means (it could be 1983, 1991, or 1999) but that's an OS/8 failure, not TECO. -Rick From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 11 17:17:12 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 15:17:12 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FFDF3F6.5020708@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4FFDF3F6.5020708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4FFD98F8.25537.1C87351@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jul 2012 at 15:45, ben wrote: > As for imperial/metric I am lucky find kind of threaded items and nuts > not in blister pack of ones and twos. Ben. PS. In search of spacers > for 10-40 bolts today. Here's something odd that I discovered. I needed some M8 flange nuts for my chainsaws (I'm always losing them). US sellers seem to ask about $4-5 each (without shipping) in plain galvanized. Plain M8 galvanized is easy to find here, but flange nuts seem to be a specialty item. The best price by far was from a UK seller, who offered 11 of the things in stainless for $6 shipped. They took less than a week to arrive. So, for some things, the UK has the best deal. I don't know why. --Chuck P.S. For what it's worth, here's the eBay seller, along with his address: Boltbase Iain Sim 6 Taran Alloa, Clackmannan FK101RF UK Why a small town on the Firth of Forth would have the best hardware prices is beyond my reckoning. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 17:30:42 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:30:42 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FFD98F8.25537.1C87351@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 11 July 2012 23:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi and America, > > > On 11 Jul 2012 at 15:45, ben wrote: > > > As for imperial/metric I am lucky find kind of threaded > items and nuts > > not in blister pack of ones and twos. Ben. PS. In search of spacers > > for 10-40 bolts today. > > Here's something odd that I discovered. I needed some M8 flange nuts > for my chainsaws (I'm always losing them). US sellers seem to ask > about $4-5 each (without shipping) in plain galvanized. Plain M8 > galvanized is easy to find here, but flange nuts seem to be a > specialty item. > > The best price by far was from a UK seller, who offered 11 of the > things in stainless for $6 shipped. They took less than a week to > arrive. > > So, for some things, the UK has the best deal. I don't know why. > Oddly I find it cheaper to buy Plotter Pens from the US. They say "Made in the UK" on them but they cost about half the price per pack than if I get them in the UK. The only problem is that I can only buy one pack at a time other wise I might be liable for Tax and Duty :-( > --Chuck > > P.S. For what it's worth, here's the eBay seller, along with his > address: > > Boltbase > Iain Sim > 6 Taran > Alloa, Clackmannan FK101RF UK > > Why a small town on the Firth of Forth would have the best hardware > prices is beyond my reckoning. > > > > > > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 11 17:32:30 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:32:30 -0600 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <201207112216.q6BMGbhQ028384@rickmurphy.net> References: <201207112216.q6BMGbhQ028384@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: In article <201207112216.q6BMGbhQ028384 at rickmurphy.net>, Rick Murphy writes: > You can't tell what this really means (it could be 1983, 1991, or 1999) > but that's an OS/8 failure, not TECO. Thanks. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jul 11 18:54:51 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 19:54:51 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> >Richard wrote: >According to the documentation for TECO v40: > > ^B (caret/B) is equivalent to the current date > via the following equations: > > OS/8: ^B = (((month*32)+day)*8)+((year-1970)&7)+k > where k = 4096 if year>1977 > and k=0 otherwise > RT-11: ^B = (((month*32)+day)*32)+year-1972 > RSTS/E: ^B = ((year-1970)*1000)+day within year > RSX-11: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day > VAX/VMS: ^B = ((year-1900)*16+month)*32+day > TOPS-10: ^B = (((year-1964)*12+month-1)*31+day-1) > >Notice how the year is added as the least significant bits for OS/8 >and RT-11. > >For OS/8, you only get *3* bits for the year plus a high 4K bit set if >the year is out of range? Does this mean years higher than 1977 are >encoded as 4096+(year-1977)? > >For RT-11, notice how year-1972 is packed into *5* bits (0..31), so >years after 1972+31=2003 start carrying over into the bits for the month >and day. > >Can anyone with RT-11 or OS/8 and TECO v40 verify what is described above? > First an obvious observation. The committee which approved the bit structure for the date in RT-11 did not seem to be thinking very clearly. It is one of the few areas which are disappointing in RT-11. The 5 bits for the year should have been specified first, then the month followed finally by the day in the lowest 5 bits. Then at least until 2099, the date value would have been an obvious value - assuming a clever programmer did not steal the high order bit to save a word in some of the programs - which was done in PIP. Obviously, ALL of the operating systems will or already have problems with the date and will or already have broken the above algorithms. I think that OS/8 has already been answered. For RT-11, after 2003, those 5 year bits are reused, so the RT-11 development team finally published (around 1989) how the dates after 2003 would be kept - at least until 2099. If you understand the RT-11 value, then there are still 2 bits left in the 16 bit word for the date at the high end. Starting on January 1st, 2004, bit 14 is set and added to the 5 low order bits for the year - in bit position 5 of course - so that if bit 14 is set, 32 years are added to the low order 5 bits for the year. Starting on January 1st, 2036, bit 15 is set (bit 14 is unset) and 64 years are added to the low order 5 bits for the year. Starting on January 1st, 2068, both bits 14 and 15 will be set and 96 years are added to the low order 5 bits for the year. Naturally, the above finally breaks on January 1st, 2100 and a second word to hold the extra year bits will be required for the next 128 year cycle - or some other method will be required. There has been some discussion as to how all of the operating systems will handle dates over the next few hundred years, but thus far there does not seem to be much interest. For myself, I have proposed adding a second word to RT-11 to hold the extra year values, but nothing specific has been agreed to or even suggested by any one else except by the developer of RUST. Note that an extra word for the resident portion of RT-11 is the trivial aspect. Where the extra bits are held for file and tape directories is the critical problem. In addition, I suggest that other date and time information be supported in file directories and one of the bits in the first word (the low order bit might be best) for the status of a file label in a file structured RT-11 device) be set to note that any additional words in a file label are for the date and time of: (a) File Creation (b) File Modification (c) File Access (d) File Backup (e) Anything else that is appropriate. Note that bit 14 in that status word is already being used for the READ ONLY status and has been implemented in the RT-11 operating system since 1989 for V05.05 of RT-11. The only problem is that PIP still does not set or clear that bit and DIR does not display the status. ALSO, RUST has a problem if that bit is ever set - or so I understand - and the problem may be serious enough to cause RUST to crash. Since RT-11 seems unlikely to have another release after V05.07 except for hobby users and I have not heard from anyone else that they are considering spending the time to work on another release - unless there is some other RT-11 addict lurking that has not added their thoughts - I doubt there is anyone else who might consider spending the time on RT-11 at this point. Note that the last release in 1998 of V05.07 of RT-11 was 15 years ago which was 25 years after the first release of RT-11 in 1973 (as far as any records I have). Perhaps, on the 50 year anniversary in 10 years there could be a V05.08 for RT-11???????????????????? I have requested suggestions and a discussion for RT-11 and some co-ordination with all of the other operating systems. I request that again! Jerome Fine From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Jul 11 22:28:35 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 20:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need a Commodore SX-64 keyboard Message-ID: <1342063715.88681.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> offlist please From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Jul 12 01:46:01 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 08:46:01 +0200 Subject: DEC Server 300 In-Reply-To: References: <20120711074758.GF85176@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20120712064600.GB50281@beast.freibergnet.de> Tony Duell wrote: > > There is a Siemens chip, a 7990 compatible on the board, it is a later > > revision of the AMD Lance. > > I've already replaced the 7992, Set up Mop on my FreeBSD host and the > > Good guess then :-) Well done on fixing it. Where on earth did you find a > 7992 so quickly? > *grin* In my closet full of chips and other electronics. I saved the LANCE Chips (complete with Transformer and the Am7996) from an old Network card years before to build some networking support for an SBC with M68010 CPU sometimes in the future. I've never build that, but I knew the chips must be somewhere.. it took my half an hour to finally find them. > > DECserver is booting, displaying the cycling 8. > > > > Now I have to fiddele with some modular Plugs, don't have any MMJ cables.. > > Most of the modular plug crim tools wil lcrimp MMJs too (the cheap-ish > one I have certainly will), so you could make your own cables. When I > needed to connect to a DEC MMJ serial port and didn't have the plug or > tool, I soldered the wires to the pins of the socket on the solder side > ofthe PCB. But that was just one port... > > -tony I've found out, that my crimp tool seems to support them too, but I don't have the plugs. I used an 6 pin normal modular plug and removed a half of the lever clip with a saw..it fits in, but it doesn't click.... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jul 11 06:39:16 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:39:16 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: any VT525 terminal users? with LCD? Message-ID: <01OHQ2CXY94I000XSR@beyondthepale.ie> > >I wasn't too thrilled with the image quality of a VT525 on an LCD panel the >last time I tried it. Bad enough that I thought I should keep a CRT around >to use with it. I'll have to try it again and take a look. I don't >remember it being dim. More of a scaling artifact issue if I remember >correctly. I > I don't have a VT525 but I did try a newish LCD panel on an Alphaserver 1000A with a Trio S3 VGA graphics card. The results were very poor with stationary vertical corrugations and difficult to read text. I found a tweakable control on the LCD setup menu - I can't remember what it was called and can't check now - maybe it was "clock rate" or something like that. Whatever it was, adjusting it made a great improvement to the display. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From rwiker at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 07:46:24 2012 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 14:46:24 +0200 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <6138461395748624429@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Rob wrote: > On 11 July 2012 12:34, Mark Benson wrote: > > Did he ever have an Apple II or something of similar era? My wild stab > > in the dark is it's a serial interface card for an Apple II or > > similar. Whatever it was didn't have a convention of using PC-Style > > backplane brackets but instead had a ribbon cable hung out the back, > > which I believe was how some A II were. > > Hmm. That's a possibility - he never used an apple, but I know one > passed through his hands a few years ago - it might be this relates to > that, but it got lost at the time. > > On 11 July 2012 12:40, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > >> It look a bit like an ISA card missing it's bracket but I've not got > > > > Not really; an 8-bit ISA card has 62 fingers, this card has 50. It > > looks a bit like an Apple II card, but the location of the fingers > > used for power looks wrong to me, so it's probably not that either. > > Ah, as I said, I didn't have one to compare. It's a while since I've > been playing with anything with ISA in it. > > The apple dad had briefly was, maybe, a IIe - would they be different? > > > PM671R is the part number of the DC/DC convertor (5 v -> 12 v) that > label's on. > > Well it was the only obvious label on there! :-) > > Rob > The Zilog 8530 is a serial communications device, and the 1488/1489 are level shifters that were commonly used for RS232 levels. The header plug has 2*13 pins, which matches the 25-pin RS232 connectors commonly used back then. The card appears to have been made in 1987 (from the date codes on the chips). So, probably an Apple II serial card, given that the board connector seems to match the Apple II expansion bus. From wrm at retro.co.za Wed Jul 11 12:18:32 2012 From: wrm at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 19:18:32 +0200 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> >On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II >slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very >likely an Apple II card. Naaah, I disagree. Sure, it yelled "Apple" at me immediately. But it looks like the power is in the middle, by C1... and Apple II power is at the (what would be in this pic) right hand side, and those look like signals going to the 244. On an Apple the pins 45 and 47 (the way this card is numbered) would be daisy chained to the other side. Not Apple IMO. W From earl at retrobits.com Wed Jul 11 18:16:52 2012 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:16:52 -0700 Subject: TSX-Plus docs In-Reply-To: <4FFDA000.2000301@bitsavers.org> References: <4FFDA000.2000301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 8:47 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/11/12 7:32 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> I have quite a pile of TSX-plus docs that need to find a good home - >> so far three or four binders. TSX is an extension of RT-11. Please >> contact me off list. Bitsavers has dibs. >> > > dibs > did I forget about this when you were out here? > > Crossing my fingers these will be online...will be great to see them. - Earl From saipan59 at q.com Wed Jul 11 22:27:14 2012 From: saipan59 at q.com (Pete McCollum) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: lot of DEC equipment for sale Message-ID: <560675954.198515.1342063634514.JavaMail.root@md41.quartz.synacor.com> We're moving, and I need to down-size considerably. I want to sell the following DEC gear as a lot for $2000. You must be able to pick it up in Colorado Springs. Everything goes together, please - no cherry-picking. You take it all, and you can dispose of the stuff you don't want. Here's the highlights: PDP-8E. Years ago, I was able to key in stuff from the front panel, but it didn't seem to execute. But I think it's not too far from working. PDP-11/05. The 5V power rail doesn't work, and the core memory is flakey, but years ago I hooked up an external 5V supply, cabled the Unibus to an external DD11 with MOS memory, and booted and ran RT-11 using my RX01 emulator board. The front panel is ugly, but all the switches and lights work. Includes spare CPU and memory-controller cards, but at least some of them don't work. VT05 terminal. DEC's first general-purpose video terminal. Quite rare, I think. It works, last time I tried. VT100 terminal. Works. PDP-11/03-L system box. It's a rack-mountable BA11 chassis with CPU, memory, BDV11, and serial card. PDT-150. Works. Have a spare CPU board also. VAXstation 3100-M38. AlphaStation 200 -4/166. "Pizza box" storage box. Accepts 3 SCSI SBB disk drives. About 2 linear feet of microfiche, tech and maint. info. These alone are worths 100's of $$ on eBay. This is mostly "good stuff". Option Module List books, 4 volumes. VMS CDs. Digital Technical Journals - I think it's a complete set. DEC handbooks - about 4-5 linear feet. A variety of modules, including Unibus, Q-bus, u-VAX, and some straight-8 flip-chip cards. Also available, but for an additional cost: Original Commodore PET, 8K RAM, chiclet keyboard. It was my very first computer in 1979. Atari 800 system. HP-85. A home-brew S-100 system that I built, based on a PDP-8i switch panel and vintage LEDs. Pete Contact me at: saipan59 at Q dot com. Or call: 719 282 1033 (weekends, or evenings before 10PM Mountain) From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 05:11:21 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:11:21 +0200 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: On 7/11/12, Wouter wrote: > >>On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II >>slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very >>likely an Apple II card. > > Naaah, I disagree. > > Sure, it yelled "Apple" at me immediately. > > But it looks like the power is in the middle, by C1... and Apple II power > is at the (what would be in this pic) right hand side, and those look like > signals going to the 244. That is what I thought initially, then I got confused by the pin numbers on this card, thought my memory had failed me, but you're absolutely right, it's not an Apple II card (at least not standard). So, on third thought, I'm back to what I said in my first thought ;-) From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Jul 12 05:16:58 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:16:58 +0100 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: On 11 July 2012 18:18, Wouter wrote: > >> On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II >> slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very >> likely an Apple II card. > > Naaah, I disagree. > > Sure, it yelled "Apple" at me immediately. > > But it looks like the power is in the middle, by C1... and Apple II power is > at the (what would be in this pic) right hand side, and those look like > signals going to the 244. Here's the back side- http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/IMG_3025.JPG Power definitely in the middle! Rob From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Jul 12 05:16:58 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:16:58 +0100 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: On 11 July 2012 18:18, Wouter wrote: > >> On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II >> slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very >> likely an Apple II card. > > Naaah, I disagree. > > Sure, it yelled "Apple" at me immediately. > > But it looks like the power is in the middle, by C1... and Apple II power is > at the (what would be in this pic) right hand side, and those look like > signals going to the 244. Here's the back side- http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/IMG_3025.JPG Power definitely in the middle! Rob From pye at mactec.com.au Thu Jul 12 05:44:26 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 20:44:26 +1000 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: <66AC2401-E713-4442-A968-63E677C2B6E7@mactec.com.au> On 12/07/2012, at 8:16 PM, Rob wrote: > On 11 July 2012 18:18, Wouter wrote: >> >>> On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II >>> slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very >>> likely an Apple II card. >> >> Naaah, I disagree. >> >> Sure, it yelled "Apple" at me immediately. >> >> But it looks like the power is in the middle, by C1... and Apple II power is >> at the (what would be in this pic) right hand side, and those look like >> signals going to the 244. > > Here's the back side- > http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/IMG_3025.JPG > > Power definitely in the middle! > > Rob The only computer apart from the Apple II that I've come across with similar looking 50 pin cards is the Hitachi MB-6890, but I no longer have one or any documentation.. Chris From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Jul 12 05:51:05 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:51:05 +0200 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FFEAC19.2080507@update.uu.se> On 2012-07-12 12:11, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 12:12 PM 7/11/2012, Richard wrote: >> >For OS/8, you only get *3* bits for the year plus a high 4K bit set if >> >the year is out of range? Does this mean years higher than 1977 are >> >encoded as 4096+(year-1977)? >> >... >> >Can anyone with RT-11 or OS/8 and TECO v40 verify what is described above? > As already mentioned, this is consistent with OS/8 date code - 3 bits > of year and two of extension. > > You can't enter dates later than 1999: > > .DATE 31-DEC-99 > > .DATE > Friday December 31, 1999 > > .DATE 1-JAN-00 > BAD DATE > .DATE 1-JAN-2000 > BAD DATE Right. But that is a limitation of the command decoder, and have very little to do with any other part of OS/8 date handling. The date encoding in OS/8 itself actually worked until 2002. > What 31-DEC-99 gives you from TECO: > .R TECO > *^B==$$ > 16375 > > (12 * 32) + 31) * 8 = 3320 > (1999 - 1970) & 7 = 5 > 3325 DEC, 6375 OCT plus 4096 gives 16375. > > You can't tell what this really means (it could be 1983, 1991, or 1999) > but that's an OS/8 failure, not TECO. No. That is a failure in TECO. OS/8 obviously knows if it is 1975, 1983, 1991 or 1999. The information is not preserved in TECO. TECO fail. The problem is that OS/8 keeps two bits for the extension of the years, while TECO compressed that into just one bit. Loss of information follows. However, with only 13 bits for integers in TECO, I'm not sure how you would go about to solve it in a reasonable way... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 06:58:37 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 07:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On 7/11/12, Wouter wrote: >> >>> On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II >>> slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very >>> likely an Apple II card. >> >> Naaah, I disagree. >> >> Sure, it yelled "Apple" at me immediately. >> >> But it looks like the power is in the middle, by C1... and Apple II power >> is at the (what would be in this pic) right hand side, and those look like >> signals going to the 244. > > That is what I thought initially, then I got confused by the pin > numbers on this card, thought my memory had failed me, but you're > absolutely right, it's not an Apple II card (at least not standard). > So, on third thought, I'm back to what I said in my first thought ;-) Wasn't there a short-lived "S-50" bus once upon a time? -- From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 07:15:47 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:15:47 +0200 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: > Wasn't there a short-lived "S-50" bus once upon a time? There was an SS50 bus, but the pins don't make sense for that bus either: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/swtpc/ss50.html From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jul 12 09:44:30 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 07:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: can anyone verify if the HP 1651a analyzer has a b & w or color crt? Message-ID: <1342104270.64474.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> please. Wif sugar From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 09:53:32 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:53:32 +0200 Subject: can anyone verify if the HP 1651a analyzer has a b & w or color crt? In-Reply-To: <1342104270.64474.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1342104270.64474.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/12/12, Chris Tofu wrote: > please. Wif sugar 9" white phosphor (B&W) From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Jul 12 10:26:07 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:26:07 +0200 Subject: Latest find 11/03 from a VAX 785 Message-ID: <710350e7e83e9b689b92550a1ad65d0c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Well, I found an 11/03 at a customer and he said 'take it if you want...' which, of course I did. He said it was a spare bootsystem for their (long gone) VAX 785. It has a bit of an odd card in it, almost empty with 50 pin connectors on it and just a few chips on it. I guess this went into the VAX to boot/load the microcode? Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 10:40:38 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:40:38 +0200 Subject: Latest find 11/03 from a VAX 785 In-Reply-To: <710350e7e83e9b689b92550a1ad65d0c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <710350e7e83e9b689b92550a1ad65d0c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 7/12/12, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > Well, I found an 11/03 at a customer and he said 'take it if you want...' > which, of course I did. He said it was a spare bootsystem for their > (long gone) VAX 785. Gotta love a customer like that! > It has a bit of an odd card in it, almost empty with 50 pin connectors > on it and just a few chips on it. > I guess this went into the VAX to boot/load the microcode? The VAX would have had an interface board (CIB?) which connected to this card, it's just an extension of the PDP's QBUS (the chips are probably just some buffers/line drivers). The logic for the interface was on the VAX card. Camiel. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Jul 12 10:41:11 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:41:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, Rob wrote: > On 11 July 2012 18:18, Wouter wrote: >> >>> On second thought, I concur. The fingers seem to match the Apple II >>> slot (power and data lines in the correct positions), so it is very >>> likely an Apple II card. >> >> Naaah, I disagree. >> >> Sure, it yelled "Apple" at me immediately. >> >> But it looks like the power is in the middle, by C1... and Apple II power is >> at the (what would be in this pic) right hand side, and those look like >> signals going to the 244. > > Here's the back side- > http://www.irrelevant.com/rob/IMG_3025.JPG > > Power definitely in the middle! I googled the text on the back of the card, and I got a single good hit for GTP244. http://www.signs101.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-64287.html It talks about a Gerber SuperSprint plotter that has GTP244-1 and GTP293-1 cards in it. Perhaps your card is from a proprietary expansion bus in this plotter? Alexey From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 10:45:00 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:45:00 +0200 Subject: Latest find 11/03 from a VAX 785 In-Reply-To: References: <710350e7e83e9b689b92550a1ad65d0c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > The VAX would have had an interface board (CIB?) which connected to > this card, it's just an extension of the PDP's QBUS (the chips are > probably just some buffers/line drivers). The logic for the interface > was on the VAX card. A technical description of the CIB board is on bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/780/EK-KC780-TD-001_ConsoleIntfTechDescr_Mar78.pdf From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 12 11:19:02 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:19:02 -0700 Subject: TSX-Plus docs In-Reply-To: References: <4FFDA000.2000301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4FFEF8F6.4060409@bitsavers.org> On 7/11/12 4:16 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 8:47 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 7/11/12 7:32 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>> I have quite a pile of TSX-plus docs that need to find a good home - >>> so far three or four binders. TSX is an extension of RT-11. Please >>> contact me off list. Bitsavers has dibs. >>> >> >> dibs >> did I forget about this when you were out here? >> >> Crossing my fingers these will be online...will be great to see them. > > - Earl > > there are already some version up at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/tsxPlus From jam at magic.com Thu Jul 12 11:19:24 2012 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: lot of DEC equipment for sale In-Reply-To: <560675954.198515.1342063634514.JavaMail.root@md41.quartz.synacor.com> References: <560675954.198515.1342063634514.JavaMail.root@md41.quartz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <201207121619.JAA14843@mist.magic.com> Pete, I am interested in these. How soon do you need these to be gone? I would also be interested in the Commodore PET. Thanks, James Markevitch On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Pete McCollum wrote: > We're moving, and I need to down-size considerably. > I want to sell the following DEC gear as a lot for $2000. > You must be able to pick it up in Colorado Springs. > Everything goes together, please - no cherry-picking. You take it all, and you can dispose of the stuff you don't want. > Here's the highlights: > PDP-8E. Years ago, I was able to key in stuff from the front panel, but it didn't seem to execute. But I think it's not too far from working. > PDP-11/05. The 5V power rail doesn't work, and the core memory is flakey, but years ago I hooked up an external 5V supply, cabled the Unibus to an external DD11 with MOS memory, and booted and ran RT-11 using my RX01 emulator board. The front panel is ugly, but all the switches and lights work. Includes spare CPU and memory-controller cards, but at least some of them don't work. > VT05 terminal. DEC's first general-purpose video terminal. Quite rare, I think. It works, last time I tried. > VT100 terminal. Works. > PDP-11/03-L system box. It's a rack-mountable BA11 chassis with CPU, memory, BDV11, and serial card. > PDT-150. Works. Have a spare CPU board also. > VAXstation 3100-M38. > AlphaStation 200 -4/166. > "Pizza box" storage box. Accepts 3 SCSI SBB disk drives. > About 2 linear feet of microfiche, tech and maint. info. These alone are worths 100's of $$ on eBay. This is mostly "good stuff". > Option Module List books, 4 volumes. > VMS CDs. > Digital Technical Journals - I think it's a complete set. > DEC handbooks - about 4-5 linear feet. > A variety of modules, including Unibus, Q-bus, u-VAX, and some straight-8 flip-chip cards. > > Also available, but for an additional cost: > Original Commodore PET, 8K RAM, chiclet keyboard. It was my very first computer in 1979. > Atari 800 system. > HP-85. > A home-brew S-100 system that I built, based on a PDP-8i switch panel and vintage LEDs. > > Pete > Contact me at: > saipan59 > at > Q > dot > com. > Or call: > 719 282 1033 (weekends, or evenings before 10PM Mountain) > From jam at magic.com Thu Jul 12 11:33:01 2012 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: lot of DEC equipment for sale In-Reply-To: <201207121619.JAA14843@mist.magic.com> References: <560675954.198515.1342063634514.JavaMail.root@md41.quartz.synacor.com> <201207121619.JAA14843@mist.magic.com> Message-ID: <201207121633.JAA14982@mist.magic.com> Sorry, this was supposed to be off-list. Testing out a new mail program. James Markevitch On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:19:24 -0700 (PDT) James A. Markevitch wrote: > Pete, > > I am interested in these. How soon do you need these to be gone? > I would also be interested in the Commodore PET. > > Thanks, > > James Markevitch From ats at offog.org Thu Jul 12 11:38:05 2012 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:38:05 +0100 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: (Alexey Toptygin's message of "Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:41:11 +0000 (UTC)") References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: Alexey Toptygin writes: > It talks about a Gerber SuperSprint plotter that has GTP244-1 and > GTP293-1 cards in it. And the Gerber parts list at includes: "GX P35657C GTP-244-1 Ser. Com LMK-Interface GX4/SP/SSP" Searching for 'Gerber "Lettering Machine Kit"' will find more references -- including people who have a plotter and would like to buy the serial card for it. ("Gerber LMK" will also get you there, if you ignore the results about knives.) -- Adam Sampson From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 12 12:29:52 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:29:52 -0600 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> References: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <4FFE124B.4080101 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > For RT-11, after 2003, those 5 year bits are reused, so the RT-11 > development > team finally published (around 1989) how the dates after 2003 would be > kept - at least until 2099. If you understand the RT-11 value, then there > are still 2 bits left in the 16 bit word for the date at the high end. > Starting > on January 1st, 2004, bit 14 is set and added to the 5 low order bits for > the year - in bit position 5 of course - so that if bit 14 is set, 32 > years are > added to the low order 5 bits for the year. Starting on January 1st, 2036, > bit 15 is set (bit 14 is unset) and 64 years are added to the low order > 5 bits > for the year. Starting on January 1st, 2068, both bits 14 and 15 will > be set > and 96 years are added to the low order 5 bits for the year. This is great info, thanks. I will use this in my TECO HTTP server date decoding for RT-11. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 12 12:31:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:31:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 11, 12 04:50:11 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Main chip is an AMD Z8530PC. There's a PAL and a MC1488 & 9, > >> otherwise the rest is 74LS TTL. All socketed. 26 pin internal header. > >> No external sockets. Date codes are mostly 1987. > >> > >> It certainly feels like some sort of RS232 serial card, based on the > > > > Well, the Z85030 is a fancy serial chip that does synchronous as well as > > asynchronous. > > Yep. > > Check the connector traces for RS232 pins 15 and 17 - if those are > routed through from the 26-pin connector to a line receiver, it's > entirely possible that this would be a sync serial port (or optionally > async/sync depending on setting). There are a couple other sync > serial arrangements, but the one that's common (for sync) and > supported, involves the board receiving clocking from the > modem/modem-eliminator. IIRC the Z8530 is a dual-channel device. I wonder if one channel is just not used, or if 2 serial ports end up on that 26 pi nehader (which would then not be wried to go straight to a DB25). I think the OP is going to have to start tracing connections :-) Also, we're all assuming it goes in a computer. It might be from some kind of RS232 switch, statitical multiplexer, network interface, or something like that. > > > As for what it's for, the obvious classic use fo the Z8530 is the Mac, so > > maybe Appletalk. But the buffers are wrong for that. Maybe to talk to an > > X25 network or soemthing? > > Perhaps. Ordinary Apple serial cards used 6551 ACIA UARTs. Those are Well, Apple ][ _Super Serial Cards_ and clones thereof used the 6551. There';s ao older Apple brand Apple ][ serial card that uses a 6850. I seem to rememebr that oen only does a very limited range of baud rates (set in ahrdare) and to get others you (semi-officially, it's in the manual) do cut-and-jumper mods. And before that there wa a bit-banger. > a lot easier to talk to than the Z8530, so one would expect there The 6551 (and 6850) are easier to interfce to the 6502 bus and easier to write software drivers for than the Z8530. The latter chip would not have been used unless there's a good reason for it. > would be a reason to use a Z8530 that's fancier than just needing to > push bytes to a dumb device. We agree :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 12 12:36:44 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:36:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: <4FFDF3F6.5020708@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Jul 11, 12 03:45:26 pm Message-ID: > As for imperial/metric I am lucky find kind of threaded items and nuts > not in blister pack of ones and twos. I know the problem... That's a very expensive way to buy them. OFten 10 small nuts bought that way will cost more than a box of 1000.... I tend to buy my most-used hardware (M3, M4, etc) in such large boxes, I am going to use them... > Ben. > PS. In search of spacers for 10-40 bolts today. > One thing I use the lathe for is making special threaded parts. I am not goign to start makign standard M3 nutes, but if I need a tapped spacer, or am odd-treaded bolt (M3 * 06.mm pitch, as I mentioend a while back) or somethign like that, I jsut turn it. Finding UNC and UNF parts over here, particularly the 'number' sizes is very difficult. You can sometimes find 4-40 and 6-32 sold for PC assmebling. Some model shops sell them, but at _ridiculous_ prices (like \pounds 2.50 for 4 nuts). I tend to buy them from Digikey. The postage is high, but at least I can get them I guess you haev similar problems finding BA nuts and bolts :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 12 12:41:42 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:41:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: from "Dave" at Jul 11, 12 11:30:42 pm Message-ID: > Oddly I find it cheaper to buy Plotter Pens from the US. They say "Made in > the UK" on them but they cost about half the price per pack than if I get > them in the UK. The only problem is that I can only buy one pack at a time > other wise I might be liable for Tax and Duty :-( It's not the tax that bothers me, it's the 'inspection fee'.. Quite what this fee is supposed to be for is beyond me, many times i've been (correctly, as the value was over the limit) been charged tax on intems shipped ot me from the states aod of course I get this extra fee slapped on. But the parcel has not been opened, they take the value from the green sticker that the sender put on. Hmmm... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 12 13:30:49 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20120711191518.03489d60@196.22.225.198> Message-ID: <20120712112648.F86809@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > It talks about a Gerber SuperSprint plotter that has GTP244-1 and GTP293-1 > cards in it. Perhaps your card is from a proprietary expansion bus in this > plotter? I don't know anything about their product line. But, as a nostalgic old fart, . . . I did a little time at GSFC SSDC (Bldg 26) on "the etch-a-sketch" - A Gerber Data Digitizer that consisted of a light board about 2 feet square, with two big knobs to turn to move cross-hairs. When you had them where you wanted, you hit a foot-pedal and an 026 punch next to it punched two three digit numbers for the coordinates. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jul 12 13:47:31 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:47:31 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> >Richard wrote: >In article Jerome H. Fine writes: > >>For RT-11, after 2003, those 5 year bits are reused, so the RT-11 >>development >>team finally published (around 1989) how the dates after 2003 would be >>kept - at least until 2099. If you understand the RT-11 value, then there >>are still 2 bits left in the 16 bit word for the date at the high end. >>Starting >>on January 1st, 2004, bit 14 is set and added to the 5 low order bits for >>the year - in bit position 5 of course - so that if bit 14 is set, 32 >>years are >>added to the low order 5 bits for the year. Starting on January 1st, 2036, >>bit 15 is set (bit 14 is unset) and 64 years are added to the low order >>5 bits >>for the year. Starting on January 1st, 2068, both bits 14 and 15 will >>be set >>and 96 years are added to the low order 5 bits for the year. >> >This is great info, thanks. I will use this in my TECO HTTP server >date decoding for RT-11. > I am curious. What is the connection between your TECO HTTP server and date decoding for RT-11? I thought that only RT-11 uses the date in the RT-11 format. How does a TECO variant which uses the RT-11 date format end up running on an HTTP server? I am probably asking the wrong question since I assume that the only TECO variant that uses the RT-11 date format is a variant of TECO which runs under RT-11. I still use TECO, in this case V36 which was distributed with V05.00 of RT-11 in March 1983. DEC stopped distributing TECO after V05.00 of RT-11, but still supports using TECO. Does V40 of TECO have many additional features over V36? Is there a V40 of TECO available which will run under RT-11? Jerome Fine From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 13:56:46 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:56:46 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> References: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I thought that only RT-11 uses the date in the RT-11 format. How does > a TECO variant which uses the RT-11 date format end up running on > an HTTP server? I think you have the funnel pointed the wrong way round... The OP is discussing an implementation detail of an HTTP Server *written in* TECO, not TECO running on an HTTP server. > I am probably asking the wrong question since I > assume that the only TECO variant that uses the RT-11 date format > is a variant of TECO which runs under RT-11. Nope. You got that part right. The OP wants to run TECO on a small PDP-11, and the obvious starting point for an OS on that hardware would be RT-11. He's then putting his own TECO macro on all of that, and his code happens to perform the functions of an HTTP server. -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jul 12 14:02:35 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> As for imperial/metric I am lucky find kind of threaded items and nuts >> not in blister pack of ones and twos. > > I know the problem... That's a very expensive way to buy them. OFten 10 > small nuts bought that way will cost more than a box of 1000.... I tend > to buy my most-used hardware (M3, M4, etc) in such large boxes, I am > going to use them... > For US buyers, I'd hit Boltdepot.com - very good prices. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jul 12 15:18:47 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:18:47 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi and America, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <29A5BD8CE17247E182FC91A3973D14CE@ANTONIOPC> > It's not the tax that bothers me, it's the 'inspection fee'.. > Quite what > this fee is supposed to be for is beyond me, many times i've been > (correctly, as the value was over the limit) been charged tax > on intems > shipped ot me from the states aod of course I get this extra > fee slapped > on. But the parcel has not been opened, they take the value from the > green sticker that the sender put on. I've never fallen foul of this but I believe that you can arrange to pay in advance and thereby avoid the fee. In other words, if you declare up front that you're about to import something on which VAT should be charged, then you only pay the duty. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 12 15:55:03 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:55:03 -0600 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> References: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <4FFF1BC3.10204 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > I am curious. What is the connection between your TECO HTTP server > and date decoding for RT-11? RFC2616, 14.18 Date: [...] "The HTTP-date sent in a Date header SHOULD NOT represent a date and time subsequent to the generation of the message. It SHOULD represent the best available approximation of the date and time of message generation, unless the implementation has no means of generating a reasonably accurate date and time. In theory, the date ought to represent the moment just before the entity is generated. In practice, the date can be generated at any time during the message origination without affecting its semantic value." ^B returns current date as a numeric value. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 12 16:17:46 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:17:46 -0600 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> References: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <4FFF1BC3.10204 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > I still use TECO, in this case V36 which was distributed with V05.00 of > RT-11 in March 1983. DEC stopped distributing TECO after V05.00 > of RT-11, but still supports using TECO. Does V40 of TECO have > many additional features over V36? Is there a V40 of TECO available > which will run under RT-11? Sorry, didn't notice the second part before I answered the first part. AFAIK, V36 and V40 are not appreciably different in their handling of ^B on any OS. Here is a release notes file summarizing changes from V36 to V39: Looks like there are more goodies here: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jul 12 16:39:02 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:39:02 -0600 Subject: potter pens. Message-ID: <4FFF43F6.6040406@jetnet.ab.ca> I just noticed this ad about space pens. Will the same cartridges fit on the older plotter? http://www.spacepen.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 12 17:00:57 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:00:57 -0600 Subject: URL for original EMACS macros in TECO? Message-ID: Anyone got one? I'm curious to look at it. According to , it was a merger of TECMACS and TMACS. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rick at rickmurphy.net Thu Jul 12 18:53:00 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:53:00 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <4FFEAC19.2080507@update.uu.se> References: <4FFEAC19.2080507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <201207122353.q6CNr0e3024264@rickmurphy.net> At 06:51 AM 7/12/2012, Johnny Billquist wrote: >Right. But that is a limitation of the command decoder, and have very >little to do with any other part of OS/8 date handling. The date >encoding in OS/8 itself actually worked until 2002. What you mean is that you can set the system date information to correspond to dates as late as 2002 if you either do it by hand (ODT) or with some other program. However, being able to set the date to something in 2001 doesn't help you much, because nothing that I know of that's shipped with the OS handles dates past 1999. (Note: I don't know if any of the OS/78 or OS/278 kits did anything here.) For example, setting the date to 31-DEC-77 then setting the two extended date bits on gives you: .DATE Monday December 31, 19 1 OK, that's still the Command Decoder. How about DIR? .DIR 2000.* 31-Dec-101 2000 .TX 1 31-Dec-101 1 Files in 1 Blocks - 615 Free blocks Looks like the date handling is pretty broken. Unless you're aware of something that actually displays the right date for such things. Oh, and the other fun aspect: .DATE 1-JAN-77 .DIR 2000.* 01-Jan-77 2000 .TX 1 31-Dec-77 1 Files in 1 Blocks - 615 Free blocks When you change the date, you might also be changing the creation dates for files by one or more multiples of 8 years. The failure to include extended date bits in directories means that whatever date your files were created in, they're assumed to be within eight years of the current date. Changing the date changes what the OS thinks the creation date is for a file. >>What 31-DEC-99 gives you from TECO: >>.R TECO >>*^B==$$ >>16375 >> >>(12 * 32) + 31) * 8 = 3320 >>(1999 - 1970) & 7 = 5 >>3325 DEC, 6375 OCT plus 4096 gives 16375. >> >>You can't tell what this really means (it could be 1983, 1991, or 1999) >>but that's an OS/8 failure, not TECO. > >No. That is a failure in TECO. OS/8 obviously knows if it is 1975, >1983, 1991 or 1999. The information is not preserved in TECO. TECO fail. It's also a failure in OS/8. 12 bits gives you potentially 11 years of date range (4096 days at 365 days per year); the 14 bits they're using could have given almost 45 years of date range if DEC had decided to change the date format to be days since 1-jan-1970. It would have made sense given that the current format has so many problems (can't be compared using simple arithmetic, for example). >The problem is that OS/8 keeps two bits for the extension of the >years, while TECO compressed that into just one bit. Loss of >information follows. > >However, with only 13 bits for integers in TECO, I'm not sure how you >would go about to solve it in a reasonable way... True, there's not much that can be done given the data type. 13 bits packed just doesn't get you enough range. The TECO source doesn't say anything about this limitation, but it just ignores the high-order date bit: CTL.B, TAD I (7777 RTL RTL RAL /PUT EXTENDED DATE BIT IN LINK L7200, 7200 /CLA CDF 10 TAD I (7666 CDF 0 JMP I (NCOM -Rick From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jul 12 19:35:04 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 20:35:04 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4FFF6D38.70902@compsys.to> >Richard wrote: >>Jerome H. Fine writes: > >>I still use TECO, in this case V36 which was distributed with V05.00 of >>RT-11 in March 1983. DEC stopped distributing TECO after V05.00 >>of RT-11, but still supports using TECO. Does V40 of TECO have >>many additional features over V36? Is there a V40 of TECO available >>which will run under RT-11? >> >Sorry, didn't notice the second part before I answered the first part. > >AFAIK, V36 and V40 are not appreciably different in their handling of >^B on any OS. > >Here is a release notes file summarizing changes from V36 to V39: > > >Looks like there are more goodies here: > > > I will check those links ASAP! However, do you know which version of TECO you are using? I have not seen any version of TECO which runs under RT-11 beyond V36 which was released in 1980 with V04.00 of RT-11. So I would be surprised if the version you are using under RT-11 is V40 of TECO - IF as Ethan Dicks suggests you are using HP TEC files from V40 of TECO running on a PDP-11 under RT-11. That part I still do not quite understand. Could you please explain? At some point, I discovered the source files for V36, but when I linked them, there were at least a few differences in the TECO.SAV file which was generated when compared with the copy of V36 of TECO.SAV distributed with V04.00 of RT-11. I suspect that those sources could be modified to produce an identical TECO.SAV to the V36 released with V04.00 of RT-11, but I have never needed to modify TECO.SAV, so the incentive is not there. It would be an interesting challenge! That V04.00 distribution of RT-11 also included a moderate number of *.TEC files. However, I doubt that EMACS were included. On the other hand, I must admit that I have never used EMACS and do not even know what they do or where to find them. Does anyone have a short description on EMACS and a link to a more detailed description? The distribution of V04.00 of RT-11 is available at a number of sites including on classiccmp. By the way, I define version to mean a change in the actual code. Variant means a different operating system or for TECO a different environment such as a VT100 as opposed to a VT52 - although I doubt that TECO would care about different terminals, being a line editor. For example, DEC produced a number of versions of KED, each with different variants for the VT100, VT52 and VT62 in addition to variants of KED which would run under a Mapped Monitor under RT-11 and under RSTS/E. The latter variants were Ker.SAV, K5r.SAV and K6r.SAV is anyone is interested. Unfortunately, DEC limited the VT100 variants to supporting only 24 lines - which was reasonable at the time, but needed very few modifications in the data (and none in the actual code) to support more than 24 lines. Even the VT52 variant could have easily been modifies to support more than 24 lines, but I am VERY confident that NO one reading this response has ever even managed to test run K52.SAV in an environment which supports more than 24 lines, let alone have the need to do so on a continuing basis. In fact, I would be willing to BET that no one has ever tested a K52.SAV in that fashion! Is anyone willing to accept the challenge to be the first to test K52.SAV in a system which supports more than 24 lines? Is anyone willing to commit to changing the data within K52.SAV to support more than 24 lines? Of course, a TECO written for x86 systems would have to be a different version since the code must be different for the PDP-11 and an x86 environment - UNLESS OF COURSE the TECO.SAV file is running under RT-11 running on a PDP-11 running under an emulator on x86 hardware - which is what I have done almost every day for the past year. Specifically, I am using V36 of TECO.SAV from 1980 running under RT-11 which runs under Ersatz-11 on my Windows 98SE operating system on a Pentium III. About the only difference I note is that everything runs about 15 times the speed of a PDP-11/93. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jul 12 19:51:07 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 20:51:07 -0400 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <201207122353.q6CNr0e3024264@rickmurphy.net> References: <4FFEAC19.2080507@update.uu.se> <201207122353.q6CNr0e3024264@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <4FFF70FB.6010209@compsys.to> >Rick Murphy wrote: > >At 06:51 AM 7/12/2012, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>> What 31-DEC-99 gives you from TECO: >>> .R TECO >>> *^B==$$ >>> 16375 >>> >>> (12 * 32) + 31) * 8 = 3320 >>> (1999 - 1970) & 7 = 5 >>> 3325 DEC, 6375 OCT plus 4096 gives 16375. >>> >>> You can't tell what this really means (it could be 1983, 1991, or 1999) >>> but that's an OS/8 failure, not TECO. >> >> No. That is a failure in TECO. OS/8 obviously knows if it is 1975, >> 1983, 1991 or 1999. The information is not preserved in TECO. TECO fail. > > It's also a failure in OS/8. 12 bits gives you potentially 11 years of > date range (4096 days at 365 days per year); the 14 bits they're using > could have given almost 45 years of date range if DEC had decided to > change the date format to be days since 1-jan-1970. It would have made > sense given that the current format has so many problems (can't be > compared using simple arithmetic, for example). Ultimately, it was a failure in DEC to allow for the continued use of these operating systems under discussion for a large number of years. So while RT-11 was easily extended to support dates until 2099, some of the other operating systems which ran on 16 bit (or fewer) hardware systems had date support for a much shorter number of years. So pointing out the failures might be a first step. Fixing the code is the next step and I have yet to note any such proposal. Prior to 1990, it was easily justified at the time in almost all companies to support dates (and almost everything else) for as limited a time as the customer would accept for the next few years. So the attitude was not limited to DEC. Even today, there does not seem to be any interest by hobby users of RT-11 to supports dates after 2099 (on the basis that they will be dead in most cases), let alone any of the other PDP-11 operating systems. Jerome Fine From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jul 12 21:07:28 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs Message-ID: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Stuck them on eBay, no one bid. I've never actually used Paradox. Are these worth saving? Anyone need them (hopefully w/the intention of sharing them wif the community)? From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jul 12 21:41:39 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:41:39 -0400 Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Why would I need a Paradox when I don't even own a boat? /ducks! > Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:07:28 -0700 > From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com > Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Stuck them on eBay, no one bid. I've never actually used Paradox. Are these worth saving? Anyone need them (hopefully w/the intention of sharing them wif the community)? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 12 22:48:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 20:48:50 -0700 Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4FFF3832.1405.2D382EE@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jul 2012 at 22:41, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > Why would I need a Paradox when I don't even own a boat? Seems to me that a Paradox would come in handy if you wanted a second opinion on your condition... From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 12 23:18:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: <4FFF3832.1405.2D382EE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <4FFF3832.1405.2D382EE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120712211720.A6156@shell.lmi.net> > Seems to me that a Paradox would come in handy if you wanted a second > opinion on your condition... How would that differ from paramedics? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Jul 12 23:27:03 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs Message-ID: <1342153623.79861.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> youre both morons you know ------------------------------ On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:48 PM PDT Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 12 Jul 2012 at 22:41, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> >> Why would I need a Paradox when I don't even own a boat? > >Seems to me that a Paradox would come in handy if you wanted a second >opinion on your condition... > > From scott at kevill.com Thu Jul 12 23:31:38 2012 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:31:38 +0800 Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <184F6119-89DC-49FF-AF19-995CC8A0BCCD@kevill.com> How many /ducks is that? Two? On 13/07/2012, at 10:41 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > Why would I need a Paradox when I don't even own a boat? > > /ducks! > >> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:07:28 -0700 >> From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com >> Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> Stuck them on eBay, no one bid. I've never actually used Paradox. Are these worth saving? Anyone need them (hopefully w/the intention of sharing them wif the community)? > From scott at kevill.com Thu Jul 12 23:33:04 2012 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:33:04 +0800 Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: <1342153623.79861.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1342153623.79861.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Come on, you could have at least said they're a Paramorons. On 13/07/2012, at 12:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > youre both morons you know > ------------------------------ > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 8:48 PM PDT Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 12 Jul 2012 at 22:41, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> >>> >>> Why would I need a Paradox when I don't even own a boat? >> >> Seems to me that a Paradox would come in handy if you wanted a second >> opinion on your condition... >> >> From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 12 23:36:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 00:36:53 -0400 Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: <184F6119-89DC-49FF-AF19-995CC8A0BCCD@kevill.com> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <184F6119-89DC-49FF-AF19-995CC8A0BCCD@kevill.com> Message-ID: <4FFFA5E5.60600@neurotica.com> And are his ducks all in a row? On 07/13/2012 12:31 AM, Scott Kevill wrote: > How many /ducks is that? Two? > > On 13/07/2012, at 10:41 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> >> >> Why would I need a Paradox when I don't even own a boat? >> >> /ducks! >> >>> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:07:28 -0700 >>> From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com >>> Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> >>> Stuck them on eBay, no one bid. I've never actually used Paradox. Are these worth saving? Anyone need them (hopefully w/the intention of sharing them wif the community)? >> > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From scott at kevill.com Thu Jul 12 23:51:51 2012 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:51:51 +0800 Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: <4FFFA5E5.60600@neurotica.com> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <184F6119-89DC-49FF-AF19-995CC8A0BCCD@kevill.com> <4FFFA5E5.60600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Well if there *are* two, then they are in a row, by definition. :) But if they are in a row, a pair of docks might be useful for the boats. On 13/07/2012, at 12:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > And are his ducks all in a row? > > On 07/13/2012 12:31 AM, Scott Kevill wrote: >> How many /ducks is that? Two? >> >> On 13/07/2012, at 10:41 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Why would I need a Paradox when I don't even own a boat? >>> >>> /ducks! >>> >>>> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:07:28 -0700 >>>> From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com >>>> Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs >>>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>>> >>>> Stuck them on eBay, no one bid. I've never actually used Paradox. Are these worth saving? Anyone need them (hopefully w/the intention of sharing them wif the community)? >>> >> >> > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 12 23:54:43 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:54:43 -0700 Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: <20120712211720.A6156@shell.lmi.net> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <4FFF3832.1405.2D382EE@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120712211720.A6156@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4FFF47A3.25760.30FD447@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jul 2012 at 21:18, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Seems to me that a Paradox would come in handy if you wanted a > > second opinion on your condition... > > How would that differ from paramedics? If I said they weren't the same, twice, it would be a paralyze. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 13 00:24:54 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 23:24:54 -0600 Subject: TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11 In-Reply-To: <4FFF6D38.70902@compsys.to> References: <4FFE124B.4080101@compsys.to> <4FFF1BC3.10204@compsys.to> <4FFF6D38.70902@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <4FFF6D38.70902 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > However, do you know which version of TECO you are using? I'm developing with TECOC from Tom Almy's page: > I have not seen any version of TECO which runs under RT-11 > beyond V36 which was released in 1980 with V04.00 of RT-11. There seems to be PDP-11 MACRO assembler source to V40 here: Although that's in an RSX folder, I don't think the MACRO source for TECO is different for the various operating systems, it just enables different chunks for different OSes. > That part I still do not quite understand. Could you > please explain? I asked on the SIMH list about PDP-11 configurations for running my retrocomputing challenge entry, but to be honest, the conversation was not particularly helpful. My challenge entry is described here: > At some point, I discovered the source files for V36, but when I > linked them, there were at least a few differences in the TECO.SAV > file which was generated when compared with the copy of V36 of > TECO.SAV distributed with V04.00 of RT-11. I suspect that those > sources could be modified to produce an identical TECO.SAV to > the V36 released with V04.00 of RT-11, but I have never needed > to modify TECO.SAV, so the incentive is not there. It would be > an interesting challenge! It's probably a matter of how it was configured, was WATCH mode enabled, etc. > That V04.00 distribution of RT-11 also included a moderate number > of *.TEC files. However, I doubt that EMACS were included. On > the other hand, I must admit that I have never used EMACS and do > not even know what they do or where to find them. The TECO EMACS was essentially a set of macros for TECO that gave you wysiwyg editing of text files. I'd like to see the .TEC files included with your distribution. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From scott at kevill.com Fri Jul 13 00:37:16 2012 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 13:37:16 +0800 Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: <4FFF47A3.25760.30FD447@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <4FFF3832.1405.2D382EE@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120712211720.A6156@shell.lmi.net> <4FFF47A3.25760.30FD447@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <75BAE7EF-806E-4111-971A-970FA0674374@kevill.com> On 13/07/2012, at 12:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12 Jul 2012 at 21:18, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> Seems to me that a Paradox would come in handy if you wanted a >>> second opinion on your condition... >> >> How would that differ from paramedics? > > If I said they weren't the same, twice, it would be a paralyze. But what are the odds of that? You could roll a paradise, or look it up on the web on a parasites. And if Dan domesticated his ducks, they'd be a parapets. Just my 20c.. a paradigms. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jul 13 00:48:17 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:48:17 -0700 Subject: potter pens. In-Reply-To: <4FFF43F6.6040406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4FFF43F6.6040406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > > I just noticed this ad about space pens. Will the same cartridges fit on > the older plotter? > http://www.spacepen.com/ No From wrm at retro.co.za Thu Jul 12 12:13:52 2012 From: wrm at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:13:52 +0200 Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20120712185228.035074d8@196.22.225.198> > >Wasn't there a short-lived "S-50" bus once upon a time? There was an SS-50 bus which was a 680x bus by as far as I remember mostly SWTPC and Gimix, and that was based on 0.1" headers with the sockets on the motherboards. There was also an SS-30 bus for I/O -- similar to the Apple II in that each slot had a decoded select signal. Dave Dunfield knows more than most of us about this :-) W From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu Jul 12 21:50:11 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:50:11 -0700 Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4FFF8CE3.9090107@gorge.net> All right, A duck thread! FYI, you need at least a pair to get ducklings. Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Why would I need a Paradox when I don't even own a boat? > > /ducks! > > >> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:07:28 -0700 >> From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com >> Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> Stuck them on eBay, no one bid. I've never actually used Paradox. Are these worth saving? Anyone need them (hopefully w/the intention of sharing them wif the community)? >> > > From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Jul 13 04:17:24 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:17:24 +0200 Subject: OS/8 dates (was TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FFFE7A4.90107@update.uu.se> On 2012-07-13 07:25, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 06:51 AM 7/12/2012, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >Right. But that is a limitation of the command decoder, and have very >> >little to do with any other part of OS/8 date handling. The date >> >encoding in OS/8 itself actually worked until 2002. > What you mean is that you can set the system date information to > correspond to dates as late as 2002 if you either do it by hand (ODT) > or with some other program. However, being able to set the date to > something in 2001 doesn't help you much, because nothing that I know of > that's shipped with the OS handles dates past 1999. (Note: I don't know > if any of the OS/78 or OS/278 kits did anything here.) Correct. The command decoder is not the only piece of software that can't handle dates beyond 1999, but the example you gave showed the specific limitation of the command decoder. But I never claimed that OS/8 was Y2K safe. I only pointed out that the internal representation of a date in OS/8 was in fact good until 2002. > For example, setting the date to 31-DEC-77 then setting the two > extended date bits on gives you: > .DATE > Monday December 31, 19 1 > > OK, that's still the Command Decoder. How about DIR? No, it's not the command decoder (as in the decoding and parsing of the command), but it's the date command output itself that do not handle dates beyond Y2K. > .DIR 2000.* > > 31-Dec-101 > > 2000 .TX 1 31-Dec-101 > > 1 Files in 1 Blocks - 615 Free blocks > > Looks like the date handling is pretty broken. Unless you're aware of > something that actually displays the right date for such things. No. It is broken. In this case DIRECT. I would suspect every utility that ever existed, more or less, in OS/8 to not handle dates beyond Y2K. But that could be fixed, and it's a separate issue from the date command accepting years beyond 1999 as input. Just for information, older versions of RSX, for example, have exactly the same bug. 2001 shows up as 101 in various places, even though RSX itself is actually good until the year 34667. In a way though, 101 is pretty logical. Program that displayed years as two digit numbers were actually often just showing an offset from the year 1900, and 2001 is, by that view, 101. But it's not pretty. Nor actually a correct display of the year. > Oh, and the other fun aspect: > .DATE 1-JAN-77 > > .DIR 2000.* > > 01-Jan-77 > > 2000 .TX 1 31-Dec-77 > > 1 Files in 1 Blocks - 615 Free blocks > > When you change the date, you might also be changing the creation dates > for files by one or more multiples of 8 years. Right. That is a known limitation that is documented. Dates on files do only cover a 8 year span, so they simply guess which 8-year span to apply to file dates. It was a "problem" already in 1978. > The failure to include extended date bits in directories means that > whatever date your files were created in, they're assumed to be within > eight years of the current date. Changing the date changes what the OS > thinks the creation date is for a file. Correct. >>> >>What 31-DEC-99 gives you from TECO: >>> >>.R TECO >>> >>*^B==$$ >>> >>16375 >>> >> >>> >>(12 * 32) + 31) * 8 = 3320 >>> >>(1999 - 1970) & 7 = 5 >>> >>3325 DEC, 6375 OCT plus 4096 gives 16375. >>> >> >>> >>You can't tell what this really means (it could be 1983, 1991, or 1999) >>> >>but that's an OS/8 failure, not TECO. >> > >> >No. That is a failure in TECO. OS/8 obviously knows if it is 1975, >> >1983, 1991 or 1999. The information is not preserved in TECO. TECO fail. > It's also a failure in OS/8. 12 bits gives you potentially 11 years of > date range (4096 days at 365 days per year); the 14 bits they're using > could have given almost 45 years of date range if DEC had decided to > change the date format to be days since 1-jan-1970. It would have made > sense given that the current format has so many problems (can't be > compared using simple arithmetic, for example). This is a different issue, but sure. Different date formats could have made the system work for longer. There is actually no reason why you need to stuff all the information into just one 12-bit word either. But it's all a tradeoff between speed, space, and complexity. DEC chose initially to store the date in one 12-bit word, with different bitfields reserved for different parts of the date. Not super compact, but easy to deal with. It ran out of range in 1978, they did the simplest form of extension by reserving two more bits in another word in memory, while not doing anything at all about dates on files. That scheme in turn ran out in 2002, but I suspect DEC was happy enough with that, since at Y2K, a lot of other things would break anyway (as you showed above), so an extension of the date format that carried longer would not be very useful anyway without going through and fixing all other code there was, which is a lot, and which they didn't do. But the fact that TECO can't tell a date from beyond 1985 is not something you can blame OS/8 for anyway. TECO made its own choice on how to represent dates. Information in OS/8 gives you unique dates until 2001, but TECO does not. You can't possibly blame OS/8 for that. >> >The problem is that OS/8 keeps two bits for the extension of the >> >years, while TECO compressed that into just one bit. Loss of >> >information follows. >> > >> >However, with only 13 bits for integers in TECO, I'm not sure how you >> >would go about to solve it in a reasonable way... > True, there's not much that can be done given the data type. 13 bits > packed just doesn't get you enough range. > > The TECO source doesn't say anything about this limitation, but it just > ignores the high-order date bit: > > CTL.B, TAD I (7777 > RTL > RTL > RAL /PUT EXTENDED DATE BIT IN LINK > L7200, 7200 /CLA > CDF 10 > TAD I (7666 > CDF 0 > JMP I (NCOM Ooo. So TECO-8 actually lie in their documentation... Even worse. A year in the range 1986-1994 would just have looked like 1970-1977. That's ugly of them. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jul 13 05:44:38 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 06:44:38 -0400 Subject: OS/8 dates (was TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11) In-Reply-To: <4FFFE7A4.90107@update.uu.se> References: <4FFFE7A4.90107@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4FFFFC16.1060402@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > [Snip] > Ooo. So TECO-8 actually lie in their documentation... Even worse. > A year in the range 1986-1994 would just have looked like 1970-1977. > That's ugly of them. What seems even more evident to me is that DEC took (as most other companies did as well) the attitude that even the internal representation of date and time was not important enough to allow the same information to be exchanged between operating systems on a consistent basis. It would seem that OS/8 supported dates starting with 1970. RT-11 supported dates starting with 1972 - although initial versions would not recognize dates until 1973. RSX-11 supported dates starting with 1900 (or 1901). I don't know about RSTS/E. VMS was somewhat better since I think it begins in the 1800's I think that DOS started in 1980 as one other dumb example. It would have taken ONLY a doubling of the date and time internal representation to start with to support dates starting at least in 1582 when the Common Era (aka Gregorian) Calendar has its base. That would have allowed most dates prior to any current event to be noted using the same internal standard. For OS/8, that would probably have required two 12 bit words rather than one - with perhaps one word alone used for the year to provide a range of 4096 years and probably many more years if the other word with the months and days (or number of days in a year) held some bits for a larger year range. The date and time software would have never broken at Y2K since the software would have been able to manage the first 400 years cycle successfully (1582 to 1982) for which there is an exact multiple of everything since there are only 97 leap years over a 400 year period (1700, 1800 and 1900 are NOT leap years - a century year must be divisible by 400 to be a leap year) giving a total of 146097 days in 400 years which is exactly 20871 weeks. By allowing incompatible data within different operating systems, DEC management, in Ken Olsen and the board, displayed an astonishing lack of foresight, at least in my opinion. So when the observation is made that a specific operating system (or even just a program) was broken, it seems that the source of the problem was upper management, not the programmers. Otherwise, the same broken software would not have existed across all of the operating systems across all of the companies. But all of that is history now or is it? Jerome Fine From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 09:18:56 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:18:56 -0300 Subject: Paradox 4.0 ducks References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4FFF8CE3.9090107@gorge.net> Message-ID: <0043CFC3A6734EE3A13E6AE603C871FA@tababook> > All right, A duck thread! > FYI, you need at least a pair to get ducklings. But just one for rubber duck programming... From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jul 13 10:28:58 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: <1342153623.79861.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1342153623.79861.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > youre both morons you know Pot. Kettle. Black. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 13 10:43:03 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 08:43:03 -0700 Subject: A useful post on this useless thread ( was Re: Paradox 4.0 docs) In-Reply-To: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50004207.9090704@bitsavers.org> On 7/12/12 7:07 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Stuck them on eBay, no one bid. I've never actually used Paradox. Are these worth saving? Anyone need them (hopefully w/the intention of sharing them wif the community)? > > FYI, I have the following versions scanned, but not postprocessed 3.0 3.5 4.0 Engine 2.0 From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Jul 13 12:55:20 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Wadoco) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 19:55:20 +0200 Subject: Unusual rt-11 msg In-Reply-To: <000c01cd5f21$c34c7620$49e56260$@comcast.net> References: <000c01cd5f21$c34c7620$49e56260$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43f7e41a20e599cd6dd87dd53e1ddbce.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> An imaged rl02 containing rt-11 5.7 distribution disk generated a bit of an odd message after booting in in simh (v3.81). It came with the following output : sim> att rl0 rt11_V5.7.dsk sim> boot rl0 RT-11FB V05.07 .TYPE V5USER.TXT RT-11 V5.7 Installation of RT-11 Version 5.7 is complete and you are now running RT-11 from your system volume. Your system volume is your working volume if you have used the Automatic Installation (AI) procedure. If you have installed RT-11 using that procedure, Mentec recommends you verify the correct operation of your system's software using the VERIFY verification procedure. You can only perform VERIFY on the valid target (output) media you used for the AI procedure. Run VERIFY before you run CONFIG. To run VERIFY, enter the command: IND VERIFY You should read the file V5NOTE.TXT, which you can TYPE or PRINT. Also, read the Introduction to RT-11, and the Installation Guide which contain much of the information you need to use RT-11 Version 5.7. .R MSCPCK ?MSCPCK-I-MU0-TK50 FW Rev Level is 005/HW Rev Level is 001 ?MSCPCK-W-TUK50 controller below FW Rev 4/HW Rev 2 . ======= Anybody have a suggestion about the last 2 error messages? and can it be easily fixed in the simh code? Ed From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 13 13:40:49 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:40:49 -0700 Subject: RL01/RL02 simulator Message-ID: <50006BB1.2080002@bitsavers.org> FYI http://www.pdp11gy.com/indexE.html#file:///E:/homepage/indexE.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 13 13:19:24 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 19:19:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unknown card.. In-Reply-To: <20120712112648.F86809@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 12, 12 11:30:49 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > It talks about a Gerber SuperSprint plotter that has GTP244-1 and GTP293-1 > > cards in it. Perhaps your card is from a proprietary expansion bus in this > > plotter? > > I don't know anything about their product line. But, as a nostalgic old One of the most common file formats for PCB production is known as a 'Gerber file'[1] I assume this was originally data to be sent to a photoplotter or similar made by said compent. [1] for some unknown reason, engineers often corrupt that to 'gerbil file' ;-) > fart, . . . I did a little time at GSFC SSDC (Bldg 26) on "the > etch-a-sketch" - A Gerber Data Digitizer that consisted of a light board > about 2 feet square, with two big knobs to turn to move cross-hairs. > When you had them where you wanted, you hit a foot-pedal and an 026 punch > next to it punched two three digit numbers for the coordinates. Soounds...fun. Incidentally, about your comment on a teach who thoguth $\pi$ was exactly 22/7. The preface for a book called 'Foundations of Wireless' (I am lookign at the 3rd edition, 1943 reprint). contains the following : 'In particular "$\pi$" (read as "pi") is always used for the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter; it is mentioend here because its meaning is almost always taken for granted. The corresponding numerical value is 3.1416 approximately (the decimal never ends), or about 22/7" Yor teacher should have read said book :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 13 13:26:43 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 19:26:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: from "Dan Gahlinger" at Jul 12, 12 10:41:39 pm Message-ID: > > > Why would I need a Paradox when I don't even own a boat? Groan! Paradox : Two people with Ph.Ds Paradox : Like a pair of chickens, but they swim. Paradox : Two sets of manuals. -tony From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Jul 13 14:04:59 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: References: <1342153623.79861.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1342206299.22706.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Gene Buckle On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > youre both morons you know Pot. Kettle. Black. g. C: You're insinuating I'm both morons? This set of morons (?) calling the other 2 morons morons? I'm only one guy. You moron From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Jul 13 14:08:46 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A useful post on this useless thread ( was Re: Paradox 4.0 docs) In-Reply-To: <50004207.9090704@bitsavers.org> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50004207.9090704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1342206526.92455.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Al Kossow FYI, I have the following versions scanned, but not postprocessed 3.0 3.5 4.0 Engine 2.0 C: Do you know how much idiocy you could have avoided by stating so sooner?! There are 7 different portions of the set (various thicknesses). You have them all? I'd hate to chuck them if you didn't. ?What's protprocessing? I'm too much of moron to know. In fact I'm so moronic I'm 2 morons simultaneously. Regardless of what you do to them post scanning, are they presently available? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Jul 13 14:09:38 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: References: from "Dan Gahlinger" at Jul 12, 12 10:41:39 pm Message-ID: <1342206578.72561.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Tony Duell Paradox : Two sets of manuals. C: No. There's only one set. You moron you LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 13 14:33:20 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:33:20 -0700 Subject: A useful post on this useless thread ( was Re: Paradox 4.0 docs) In-Reply-To: <1342206526.92455.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50004207.9090704@bitsavers.org> <1342206526.92455.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50007800.5050908@bitsavers.org> On 7/13/12 12:08 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Do you know how much idiocy you could have avoided by stating so sooner?! > I generally do not discuss things I've scanned, but are not available on bitsavers. If I see a request for some information that I have scanned, I move that up in the work queue. > There are 7 different portions of the set (various thicknesses). You have them all? I'd hate to chuck them if you didn't. I appear to have scanned 7 documents > What's protprocessing? I'm too much of moron to know. What I have are raw TIFF images. I have not converted them to pdf, nor have I run an OCR pass on them. > Regardless of what you do to them post scanning, are they presently available? No, they are not, since I do not put raw scans on line. I also do not know if or when they would be made available. The only reason I posted this at all was to state that they have been scanned. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jul 13 14:47:10 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 13:47:10 -0600 Subject: A useful post on this useless thread ( was Re: Paradox 4.0 docs) In-Reply-To: <1342206526.92455.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50004207.9090704@bitsavers.org> <1342206526.92455.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1342206526.92455.YahooMailNeo at web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Chris Tofu , who doesn't know how to quote or add new material to a thread, writes: > Do you know how much idiocy you could have avoided by stating so sooner?! For this list? None. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jul 13 14:45:19 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paradox 4.0 docs In-Reply-To: <1342206299.22706.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1342153623.79861.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1342206299.22706.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jul 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> >> youre both morons you know > > Pot. Kettle. Black. > > g. > > C:\DERP You're insinuating I'm both morons? This set of morons (?) > calling the other 2 morons morons? I'm only one guy. You moron > *sigh* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Jul 13 14:52:59 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 12:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A useful post on this useless thread ( was Re: Paradox 4.0 docs) In-Reply-To: <50007800.5050908@bitsavers.org> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50004207.9090704@bitsavers.org> <1342206526.92455.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50007800.5050908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1342209179.68625.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Al Kossow I generally do not discuss things I've scanned, C: Wo, sorry. Didn't know it was Top Secret stuff. But then why in tarnation did you, and continue to??? I appear to have scanned 7 documents C: What does your appearance have to do w/any of this??? You all are crazy as heck you know. What I have are raw TIFF images. I have not converted them to pdf, nor have I run an OCR pass on them. C: Well if they're raw, they don't need any of that. What they need is to be tossed on the barby for a bit. ?The only reason I posted this at all was to state that they have been scanned. C: You had a plethora of reasons, the primary one is to make me a bit crazier, like the rest of your cohorts. Just admit it. ?Incidentally I do have the Mindset service manual as well as the marketing guide (whoopee!). I'll be *scanning* those bad boys before long. I don't intend to produce raw anything though. People get sick from raw things these days. From lists at loomcom.com Fri Jul 13 15:10:24 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:10:24 -0400 Subject: Altair 8800 Kit - Paging Grant Stockly Message-ID: <20120713201024.GA21108@mail.loomcom.com> Has anyone heard from Grant Stockly recently? The Altair Kit forums have fallen into the hands of spammers, and I haven't been able to reach him through email. He announced a new sale of kits in early June, but I didn't find out about it until last week. I was hoping to get in on it. -Seth From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 13 15:24:28 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 13:24:28 -0700 Subject: A useful post on this useless thread ( was Re: Paradox 4.0 docs) In-Reply-To: <1342209179.68625.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50004207.9090704@bitsavers.org> <1342206526.92455.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50007800.5050908@bitsavers.org> <1342209179.68625.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <500083FC.6050109@bitsavers.org> On 7/13/12 12:52 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: You had a plethora of reasons, the primary one is to make me a bit crazier, like the rest of your cohorts. Just admit it. > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 16:09:18 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 17:09:18 -0400 Subject: A useful post on this useless thread ( was Re: Paradox 4.0 docs) In-Reply-To: <500083FC.6050109@bitsavers.org> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50004207.9090704@bitsavers.org> <1342206526.92455.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50007800.5050908@bitsavers.org> <1342209179.68625.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <500083FC.6050109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Indeed. -- Will From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Jul 13 18:12:20 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 19:12:20 -0400 Subject: A useful post on this useless thread ( was Re: Paradox 4.0 docs) In-Reply-To: <50004207.9090704@bitsavers.org> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50004207.9090704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5000AB54.50004@verizon.net> On 07/13/2012 11:43 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/12/12 7:07 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Stuck them on eBay, no one bid. I've never actually used Paradox. Are >> these worth saving? Anyone need them (hopefully w/the intention of >> sharing them wif the community)? >> >> > FYI, I have the following versions scanned, but not postprocessed > > 3.0 > 3.5 > 4.0 > Engine 2.0 > > I've used Paradox, it was a fairly decent database and had good capability and an almost pascal like language called PAL that included data and data entry pictures. I have manuals for it still (V4 and V5 plus V5/win versions. I ahve to try running the dos and winders versions under Linux (dosemu and wine) someday. Allison > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 18:24:05 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 18:24:05 -0500 Subject: Unusual rt-11 msg In-Reply-To: <43f7e41a20e599cd6dd87dd53e1ddbce.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <000c01cd5f21$c34c7620$49e56260$@comcast.net> <43f7e41a20e599cd6dd87dd53e1ddbce.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: do u have a tk50 tape drive? On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Wadoco wrote: > > An imaged rl02 containing rt-11 5.7 distribution disk > generated a bit of an odd message after booting in in simh (v3.81). > > It came with the following output : > > sim> att rl0 rt11_V5.7.dsk > sim> boot rl0 > > RT-11FB V05.07 > > RT-11 V5.7 > > Installation of RT-11 Version 5.7 is complete and you are now > running > RT-11 from your system volume. > > Your system volume is your working volume if you have used the > Automatic > Installation (AI) procedure. If you have installed RT-11 using > that > procedure, Mentec recommends you verify the correct operation of > your > system's software using the VERIFY verification procedure. You can > only > perform VERIFY on the valid target (output) media you used for the > AI > procedure. Run VERIFY before you run CONFIG. To run VERIFY, enter > the > command: > IND VERIFY > > You should read the file V5NOTE.TXT, which you can TYPE or PRINT. > Also, > read the Introduction to RT-11, and the Installation Guide which > contain much of the information you need to use RT-11 Version 5.7. > > > .R MSCPCK > ?MSCPCK-I-MU0-TK50 FW Rev Level is 005/HW Rev Level is 001 > ?MSCPCK-W-TUK50 controller below FW Rev 4/HW Rev 2 > > . > > ======= > > Anybody have a suggestion about the last 2 error messages? > and can it be easily fixed in the simh code? > > Ed > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 13 19:49:20 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 17:49:20 -0700 Subject: (OT) Odd HP electrolytic capacitor ratings Message-ID: <50005FA0.5904.203BF20@cclist.sydex.com> I'm getting around to doing some work on my veneered and generated HP5307A frequency counter. Looking at all the gold-plated PCB goodness inside, the first thing that jumps out at me is a bulging electrolytic. It's a 940 uF, 40V unit. Not 1000 uF, but 940. Not 50V, but 40V. I'm going to substitute a pair of 470uF, 50V units paralleled as a substitute, but this had me wondering if anyone knows why the strange values, particularly since +/-20 percent tolerances are common on electrolytic caps. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Jul 13 20:13:49 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 18:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A useful post on this useless thread ( was Re: Paradox 4.0 docs) In-Reply-To: <5000AB54.50004@verizon.net> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50004207.9090704@bitsavers.org> <5000AB54.50004@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1342228429.46633.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: allison I've used Paradox, it was a fairly decent database and had good capability and an almost pascal like language called PAL that included data and data entry? pictures. I have manuals for it still (V4 and V5 plus V5/win versions.? I ahve to try running the dos and winders versions under Linux (dosemu and wine) someday. Allison C: Omg an actual useful comment w/i this useless thread. I didn't quite know what to expect when who the sender was, I'm afraid to admit :p ?This is the dos version though. From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Jul 13 20:38:52 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 03:38:52 +0200 Subject: OS/8 dates (was TECO ^B on OS/8 and RT-11) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5000CDAC.3000302@update.uu.se> On 2012-07-13 19:00, "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: >Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >[Snip] >> >Ooo. So TECO-8 actually lie in their documentation... Even worse. >> >A year in the range 1986-1994 would just have looked like 1970-1977. >> >That's ugly of them. > What seems even more evident to me is that DEC took > (as most other companies did as well) the attitude that > even the internal representation of date and time was > not important enough to allow the same information to > be exchanged between operating systems on a consistent > basis. Sorry, but I fail to see the point. The internal representation of a date will almost by necessity be different between different OSes and hardware. Having a bunch of 16 bit values represent a date on a PDP-8 would be incredibly stupid and difficult, not to mention that OS/8 have no concept of time to more detail than a day. And even that needs to be updated manually every day. So, ignoring the internal format, which can't really be portable anyway, you then get to representation. There will always be dates that cannot be represented in whatever format you choose. So what is the point of bringing up that argument? It is nice if the dates that you might reasonably expect to be processes be possible to express on the system. As for communicating with other systems, in the communication I would suspect/expect that you use an intermediate format (a nice text string for example) that both agree on. And then you can convert from the internal format to and from this intermediate format, as long as the date is within a range expressable on that system. When you go outside the date range for the system, you can either try to do something reasonable, or give an error. I think that is a choice that is best left to the writers of the code to decide on a case by case basis. By the way, Unix express time as a number of seconds since Jan 1, 1970, 00:00 UTC. And time is horribly complex. You know that even if we keep it fairly modern, different countries switched from Julian dates to Gregorian dates at different times, the last being Russia, in the early 20th century. If you really think that you can come up with a reasonable, portable design, that is "universal", I think I know of a few organizations that would like to hear from you. Until then, I'm pretty much satisfied with things the way they already are. Yes, OS/8 have been broken for 10 years now. But to fix it require more than just changing the internal storage for the date. RSX got fixed, and depending on which bits you look, it might stop working right 2070(?), 2099, 2155 or 34667. I don't know about RT-11, but I do know that RT-11 is totally separate from RSX, and any problems are not shared, but unique. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Jul 13 21:17:09 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 22:17:09 -0400 Subject: A useful post on this useless thread ( was Re: Paradox 4.0 docs) In-Reply-To: <1342228429.46633.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1342145248.83819.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50004207.9090704@bitsavers.org> <5000AB54.50004@verizon.net>, <1342228429.46633.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry that classic pun was just too good to let pass by. decent database is open to interpretation, it didn't stick around long. I used to use the old foxpro before M$ got their mitts on it, and an old DOS database/RAD called Clarion. Only the DOS version was any good. speaking which, and somewhat on-topic, what IS a decent database/app designer these days? I mean in Clarion you could pop out little apps in less than 5 minutes without doing any coding at all, full database, indexes, cross-references, reports, lookups, you name it. i've looked at modern stuff like phpmyadmin and mysql and stuff, and while you can get the database structure down, there's no RAD (Rapid Application Development). the last one I saw like that was called 4G don't tell me delphi or idle or lazarus, it's just not that simple, clarion you just "paint the screen", place the fields, and voila. not even as difficult as OOP in turbo pascal (TTT was great). the old days of doing simple little knock-off programs in todays GUI world seem to be gone. Dan C:\, C:\DOS>, C:\DOS>RUN > Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 18:13:49 -0700 > From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com > Subject: Re: A useful post on this useless thread ( was Re: Paradox 4.0 docs) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > From: allison > > > I've used Paradox, it was a fairly decent database and had good capability and an almost pascal like language > called PAL that included data and data entry pictures. > > I have manuals for it still (V4 and V5 plus V5/win versions. I ahve to try running the dos and winders versions under > Linux (dosemu and wine) someday. > > Allison > > C: Omg an actual useful comment w/i this useless thread. I didn't quite know what to expect when who the sender was, I'm afraid to admit :p > > This is the dos version though. > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Jul 13 21:31:04 2012 From: rampagingg