From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 1 02:24:48 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 08:24:48 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <4E5EAB04.3030308@dunnington.plus.com> References: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> <4E5D7583.4020409@dunnington.plus.com> <060501cc67be$e4fe25d0$aefa7170$@ntlworld.com> <4E5EAB04.3030308@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <066a01cc6878$3d0bf5e0$b723e1a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: 31 August 2011 22:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems > > No, I don't think so. I can't remember what that does, but thre are lots of links. > They might not be jumpers in the usual sense; they might be tracks to cut/join > on the PCB or wire links. Anytway, if you have any sort of ohmmeter or > continuity tester, it's east to see if what I described is set up: check for > continuity between pins 26 and 32 on each of J1...J4. If your continuity tester > isn't safe for use on logic circuits, just disconnect the M9058, which is > probably going to be necessary to get at the pins anyway. > I used my digital multimeter to check the pins you mention, there is continuity between pins 26, 28, 30 and 32 on each of J1 to J4. I also checked that pin 4 on J9 is connected to pin 12 on J12, this is the RD 0 RDY H signal, so the drive should be seen as ready by the RQDX3. I have also checked that J5 pin 1 is connected to J12 pin 14 which is the select ack (DRV SEL 0 ACK (L) ), so any selection confirmation should be coming back to the RQDX3. I suspect I need a way to monitor the signals actually passing across the wires, I have a multimeter and an oscilloscope, but I am not sure of the practicalities of how to get access to the signals, I suppose I need some kind of "breakout" ribbon cable, but I don't want to ruin the existing cables. Is there some standard technique for doing this kind of work? For now I think I will just solder some diagnostic wires directly to the M9058. > Mentioning DS3 reminds me: I think that's the normal setting for an > M9058 setup. I have put it back to DS3, although it is my understanding that with an M9058 it does not matter what setting you use. > > I don't know if it helps much, but there are some diagrams and notes at > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/RQDX/ (the .ps files are just the > original PostScript from which the PDFs were created). > > Does the RD53 have a terminator resistor pack in it? I just checked, and yes it does. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 1 02:31:21 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 08:31:21 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <4E5EE6E0.5050001@compsys.to> References: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> <4E5EE6E0.5050001@compsys.to> Message-ID: <066b01cc6879$26eb5430$74c1fc90$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine > Sent: 01 September 2011 02:59 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems > > > > Whenever I used an RD53 in a BA123 with the M9058 distribution board, I > always set the DS3 jumper for all hard drives. I don't know if the RD53 will > also work with the DS1, DS2 or DS4. However, it definitely will work with the > DS3. I will put it back to DS3, but it didn't work when set that way. My understanding of the docs is that the DS1-4 jumper is irrelevant when using an M9058. > > I agree that it is likely that the M9058 distribution is the most likely problem > since that RD53 drive works with on a BA23 with the same RQDX3 and all of > the cables. However, I don't know enough about hardware to really be sure. The M9058 has to be the focus for the moment as it is the only bit I have not been able to test separately. > > > If you have a 6 button front panel, then it is also possible to use the RQDX2 or > RQDX3 controller with a second RD53 in which case the second RD53 MUST > have the DS4 jumper. It is also possible to set up an alternate circuit which > can be used instead of a 6 button front panel in a BA23, but the first hard > drive MUST has the DS3 jumper and the second hard drive must have the DS4 > jumper. > > If you forget and use both hard drives with the DS3 jumper and the WRITE > PROTECT buttons are not turned on, then I have noted (from personal > experience - once was enough to NEVER forget that sinking feeling) that the > LLF (Low Level Format) is lost on BOTH hard drives. At the moment I only have one drive in the machine, although I will be adding a second one once I have cleared up this problem. That said, this is not a BA23, but a BA123 and as I said above, I believe the M9058 handles drive selection so that the DS jumper settings are irrelevant. > > There has been mention of: > > >Peter Turnbull wrote: > >Does the RD53 have a terminator resistor pack in it? > > R7 on a RD53 is a ZERO OHM resistor which the RQDX2 and RQDX3 require in > order to recognize the Micropolis 1325 (also 1335D) as an RD53. > It is possible to take the PC version of the Micropolis 1325 and solder in pins > where the R7 resistor would be located. A wire wrap between the pins is > then sufficient to take the place of the zero ohm resistor. > > There have also been too many notes about the failure of the RD53 drive due > to the heads being stuck to consider the RD53 as a reliable drive. > My suggestion is to NEVER rely on the data on an RD53 once the drive is > powered down. Yes, I am aware of the problem with the heads getting stuck. I have cleaned out the sticky bumper and verified that the disk works in a MicroVAX 2000. I am about to repeat the test in the 2000 just to be sure. However I am also pretty sure the heads are not sticking because I don't hear the drive spinning down until I actually switch the machine off. Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 1 06:28:35 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 12:28:35 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <066a01cc6878$3d0bf5e0$b723e1a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> <4E5D7583.4020409@dunnington.plus.com> <060501cc67be$e4fe25d0$aefa7170$@ntlworld.com> <4E5EAB04.3030308@dunnington.plus.com> <066a01cc6878$3d0bf5e0$b723e1a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000301cc689a$4b02d1b0$e1087510$@ntlworld.com> > I used my digital multimeter to check the pins you mention, there is continuity > between pins 26, 28, 30 and 32 on each of J1 to J4. I also checked that pin 4 > on J9 is connected to pin 12 on J12, this is the RD 0 RDY H signal, so the drive > should be seen as ready by the RQDX3. I have also checked that J5 pin 1 is > connected to J12 pin 14 which is the select ack (DRV SEL 0 ACK (L) ), so any > selection confirmation should be coming back to the RQDX3. > > I suspect I need a way to monitor the signals actually passing across the wires, I > have a multimeter and an oscilloscope, but I am not sure of the practicalities > of how to get access to the signals, I suppose I need some kind of "breakout" > ribbon cable, but I don't want to ruin the existing cables. Is there some > standard technique for doing this kind of work? For now I think I will just > solder some diagnostic wires directly to the M9058. > Hmmm.... I used my multimeter to see if I could see anything happening. I could see that the controller selects the drive and that the select acknowledgement is asserted (J12 pin 14), so it seems the disk is responding to the controller and the controller is seeing the ack. I then used my oscilloscope to check the INDEX signal to see if, once selected, the drive told the controller it was seeing the start of the track, I confirmed this was happening, so the disk is rotating. So why it thinks the disk is offline is a mystery. Regards Rob From mike at fenz.net Thu Sep 1 07:30:31 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 00:30:31 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5F7AE7.6000704@fenz.net> Well, another step forward. Thanks to Tony's advice, I continued investigating the video output, and found another dead IC (74LS51 this time). I'm beginning to wonder how a machine could end up with so many faulty ICs; that's two in just the video circuitry. Maybe the original PSU short to ground did something horrible. I now get a clean video display (which rolls on the Monitor ///, but that's not a big surprise). At this point though, I really need to replace the crystal. Holding it so the broken leg makes contact with one hand while powering the machine up with the other really isn't a good way of going about things; this is why the picture's still rolling, I can't adjust the hold on the monitor and keep the crystal steady enough with the other hand! Silly question of the day: I'm guessing no-one would have any idea where I'd find a 14.25045MHz crystal in New Zealand... On 1/09/2011 7:12 a.m., Tony Duell wrote: >> ARGH!. >> >> When I wsa sortign out my (totally dead) HP9820, one of the first checks >> I did after ensuring all the PSU rails were correct was the clock >> circuit. This starts with an 8MHz crystal oscillator. Checkign the output >> of this circuit (a couple of TTL gates, some R's and Cs, and the >> (socketed) crystal) showed a very distoete waveform at aobut 20MHz. This >> remained the smae when the crystal was unplugged, and was acutlaly just >> the natural osciallation frequencyt of one of the gates with a resistor >> linking output to input. Fitting a good crystal got it back at 8Mhz. >> >> Intrigued, I carfully cut the can off the defective crystal to see that >> the quartz (?) plate inside was acutally broken in half (there's a >> picture of it in mu flickr account). I asuem this must have happend when >> the machine was dropped or something. >> I'm actually wondering if I could do something like this to get the machine going in the short term, while I wait for a new crystal to be shipped. Reckon it might be possible to trim the bottom off the crystal's can and remove it, so that I have access to the crystal itself, and then solder a lead to the crystal side of the base? As it stands, the original lead is broken off flush with the base, so trying to re-attach anything to that is virtually impossible. I obviously still have a lot of work I need to do on this machine (now that I can see the video output, it's the typical dead-Apple mess of characters), I don't want to put it aside for a couple of weeks while I wait for parts. Cheers, Mike From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Sep 1 07:51:56 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 08:51:56 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5EE907.6070001@verizon.net> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5EC8EE.20405@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED23A.9090205@verizon.net> <4E5ED6E8.2030601@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED934.4010100@neurotica.com> <4E5EE907.6070001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E5F7FEC.5020507@telegraphics.com.au> On 31/08/11 10:08 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 8/31/2011 9:00 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 08/31/2011 08:50 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Adobe does have their Digital Negative .DNG, which is publicly >>>> documented, the spec. available online and so forth. They push people to >>>> convert their raw camera files to .DNG which is fine --- but of course >>>> any proprietary extensions that Adobe doesn't reverse engineer or have a >>>> corresponding field to is simply not copied and 'lost' in the >>>> conversion. >>> > > > >>> If your >>> camera spits out data in an indecipherable format, what choice do you >>> have? Only to boycott the manufacturer, and that hasn't seemed to work. > > > >> What you said might be true if the only way these cameras stored data >> was in "RAW" format. Fortunately, this is not the case. > > Right. Of course you can also use TIFF, which is somewhere in between. If the camera supports it. > It's not lossy like jpeg, stores 16-bit (many cameras' sensors output > 14), but still permanently bakes the white balance. Exactly. And what about the colour profile? If one is embedded, can you use and interpret it? > > Of the crowd who support keeping the RAW images around (some just > post-process immediately to TIFF or JPEG, and discard the .RAW) suggest > converting to .DNG, and keeping both the RAW and DNG. ... > > Oh, and to address boycotting a company over the practice, it's just not > really practical. Most (all?) manufacturers do this. So how DO we fix this? Stallman's spent the past 25 years trying to get this concept through thick heads. Sure, he started the biggest software revolution in history, but until we break reliance on closed-proprietary-obsolescent code (such as camera firmware and drivers), we live in a house of cards. Often it's commercial users who are the most screwed. TL;DR: The open source revolution has barely impacted _devices_ (including computer components & peripherals). > They all give you > a utility to convert to more convenient formats. Unfortunately, their > marketing depts try to leverage the format in sales -- saying, "look at > the neat stuff we can do with our RAW files". Usually the benefits are > very minor. It's rather important (to pros) if it's the only uncompressed alternative to JPEG. --Toby > > Besides, there's some "vendor lock-in" when you buy Nikon (or > whomever's) lenses --- you would have to sell your stuff second hand and > then rebuy a different manufacturer, just to deal with basically the > same problems. The third party lens manufacturers that produce > compatible lenses are usually sub-standard(but admittedly cheaper) -- > the glass from Nikon is better than tamron, sigma, and so on. Not to > mention, there are some real benefits to using Nikon glass on Nikon > body. An example is auto-correction of lens flaws (perhaps, say, > chromatic aberration) inside the body. > > Keith > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 10:06:37 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 12:06:37 -0300 Subject: mess.org References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> <4E5EA200.8020401@neurotica.com> <4E5EADDF.1070307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <47F0C964085F453A9C4FF4666FDF298B@portajara> > HEY!! 8-< Everybody loves Dave :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 1 11:34:03 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 12:34:03 -0400 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <47F0C964085F453A9C4FF4666FDF298B@portajara> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> <4E5EA200.8020401@neurotica.com> <4E5EADDF.1070307@neurotica.com> <47F0C964085F453A9C4FF4666FDF298B@portajara> Message-ID: On Sep 1, 2011, at 11:06 AM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> HEY!! 8-< > > Everybody loves Dave :) Nah, suits and rabid Microsoft fanboys (between which there is a substantial overlap) usually don't, because they tend to dislike people who publicly expose either treachery or stupidity. And I'm just fine with that. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 11:52:39 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 09:52:39 -0700 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> <4E5EA200.8020401@neurotica.com> <4E5EADDF.1070307@neurotica.com> <47F0C964085F453A9C4FF4666FDF298B@portajara> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:34 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?Nah, suits and rabid Microsoft fanboys (between which there is a substantial overlap) usually don't, because they tend to dislike people who publicly expose either treachery or stupidity. ?And I'm just fine with that. :) > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave I haven't noticed many "rabid Microsoft fanboys" on this list, while Dave is just plain rabid :) -Glen From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 1 12:00:24 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:00:24 -0400 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> <4E5EA200.8020401@neurotica.com> <4E5EADDF.1070307@neurotica.com> <47F0C964085F453A9C4FF4666FDF298B@portajara> Message-ID: <6CAE6913-49F3-4911-845F-FC1304ADF7DC@neurotica.com> On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:52 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:34 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Nah, suits and rabid Microsoft fanboys (between which there is a substantial overlap) usually don't, because they tend to dislike people who publicly expose either treachery or stupidity. And I'm just fine with that. :) >> > > I haven't noticed many "rabid Microsoft fanboys" on this list, Oh, there are definitely one or two. I'll be nice today, though. ;) > while Dave is just plain rabid :) Too true! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 12:48:43 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 12:48:43 -0500 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <6CAE6913-49F3-4911-845F-FC1304ADF7DC@neurotica.com> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> <4E5EA200.8020401@neurotica.com> <4E5EADDF.1070307@neurotica.com> <47F0C964085F453A9C4FF4666FDF298B@portajara> <6CAE6913-49F3-4911-845F-FC1304ADF7DC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: gues i could load up my copy of magic spell for the heathkit........ anyhow goes back to figuring out my asr33's paper tape reader so i can boot my pdp8a with my jerrel-ash tapes http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/6089172843/sizes/l/in/photostream/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Sep 1 13:23:18 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 19:23:18 +0100 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <4E5F7AE7.6000704@fenz.net> References: <4E5F7AE7.6000704@fenz.net> Message-ID: <4E5FCD96.1060309@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/09/2011 13:30, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > Well, another step forward. Thanks to Tony's advice, I continued > investigating the video output, and found another dead IC (74LS51 this > time). I'm beginning to wonder how a machine could end up with so many > faulty ICs; that's two in just the video circuitry. Maybe the original > PSU short to ground did something horrible. I doubt this is the cause, but I once had a similar effect with a BBC Micro and a Torch disk pack PSU. The Torch processor, mounted upside down inside the lid of the BBC Micro, fell off and shorted something on the main PCB below. The PSU apparently shut down, but had a serious voltage overshoot when it started up again, and put about 8V or more onto the 5V rail. That took out quite a few LSTTL chips. Oh, and the way we found out which ones was to put a big bench 5V PSU on the machine and see what got hot because it was drawing too much current... > Silly question of the day: I'm guessing no-one would have any idea where > I'd find a 14.25045MHz crystal in New Zealand... No, but the standard crystal in an Apple ][ is a 14.318MHz crystal, and that's a standard so should be very easy to find. I wonder if yours is a special value for a non-US market? But AFAIR even the Apple Europlus used 14.318MHz. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Sep 1 13:44:09 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 19:44:09 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <000301cc689a$4b02d1b0$e1087510$@ntlworld.com> References: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> <4E5D7583.4020409@dunnington.plus.com> <060501cc67be$e4fe25d0$aefa7170$@ntlworld.com> <4E5EAB04.3030308@dunnington.plus.com> <066a01cc6878$3d0bf5e0$b723e1a0$@ntlworld.com> <000301cc689a$4b02d1b0$e1087510$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E5FD279.9070200@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/09/2011 12:28, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> I used my digital multimeter to check the pins you mention So that's OK. > I suspect I need a way to monitor the signals actually passing across > the wires, I have a multimeter and an oscilloscope, but I am not > sure of the practicalities of how to get access to the signals, I > suppose I need some kind of "breakout" ribbon cable, but I don't want > to ruin the existing cables. Is there some standard technique for > doing this kind of work? For now I think I will just solder some > diagnostic wires directly to the M9058. It used to be possible to get a little adapter that goes in-line with a 34-way (other sizes also available); it consisted of a rectangular block with one female contacts on one side, male pins on the other, and a second set of male pins on top, to which one would attach probes. They were stupidly expensive, and I'm not parting with mine :-) However, you can achieve exactly the same effect by mounting two male IDC connectors and one female on a short piece of ribbon cable. Or add a male IDC to a short female-to-female so you can use it as an extension and make two or three probe cables with square wire-wrap pins -- those are an exact fit in a female IDC connector. Or even just add one more female IDC to the existing cable and probe that with wire-wrap pins. The pins I used for mine are gold-plated single wire-wrap IC socket pins, but anything similar will do. > Hmmm.... I used my multimeter to see if I could see anything > happening. I could see that the controller selects the drive and that > the select acknowledgement is asserted (J12 pin 14), so it seems the > disk is responding to the controller and the controller is seeing > the ack. I then used my oscilloscope to check the INDEX signal to see > if, once selected, the drive told the controller it was seeing the > start of the track, I confirmed this was happening, so the disk is > rotating. > > So why it thinks the disk is offline is a mystery. Sounds like the software has a problem rather than the hardware. I looked back at earlier posts; you said you tested the RD53 in a MicroVAX 2000, and the RQDX3 in a BA23 uVAX II. But did that test use the same RQDX3 with the RD53 in the uVAX II? I /think/ the format put on an RDxx by any revision of RQDX3 is the same, though new firmware might change things like RCTs in ways not transparent to old firmware. But the format used by RQDX1 and RQDX2 is quite different to RQDX3 and I wonder if the drive is the "wrong" format? Isn't a uVAX 2000 the same format as RQDX1/2? The last possibility I can think of is that there are a few active devices on an M9058. They're mostly Schmitt triggers and open-collector inverters used to buffer signals from RQDX to drive (and v.v.), but some are differential buffers for the MFM data. Maybe one of those has gone. You could of course test the M9058 in the BA23. Just ignore the BA23's normal drive cabling and connect the RQDX in the BA23 via the 50-pin cable to the M9058, and cable the drive to that as if it were in a BA123. The M9058 has no connections to the backplane except for power and won't interfere with anything else. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From feldman.r at comcast.net Thu Sep 1 14:16:17 2011 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 19:16:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1337810177.80971.1314904577366.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 6 >Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 13:52:48 -0500 >From: Jules Richardson >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >???????? >Subject: Re: mess.org >Message-ID: <4E5D3180.4010903 at gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed > >Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> and that means what? >> >> You see how my text is below yours? ?That's the way it should be. ?You >> are putting your text above the text to which you are replying. > >Agreed... although ordering is a funny thing - someone should really tell >US road maintainers so that they cease writing things like "ahead stop" on >their roads ;-) You're not the only one who thinks that way: http://xkcd.com/781/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 1 15:43:37 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 21:43:37 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <4E5FD279.9070200@dunnington.plus.com> References: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> <4E5D7583.4020409@dunnington.plus.com> <060501cc67be$e4fe25d0$aefa7170$@ntlworld.com> <4E5EAB04.3030308@dunnington.plus.com> <066a01cc6878$3d0bf5e0$b723e1a0$@ntlworld.com> <000301cc689a$4b02d1b0$e1087510$@ntlworld.com> <4E5FD279.9070200@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <002e01cc68e7$d4ea4a00$7ebede00$@ntlworld.com> > Sounds like the software has a problem rather than the hardware. I looked > back at earlier posts; you said you tested the RD53 in a MicroVAX 2000, and > the RQDX3 in a BA23 uVAX II. But did that test use the same > RQDX3 with the RD53 in the uVAX II? I /think/ the format put on an RDxx by > any revision of RQDX3 is the same, though new firmware might change things > like RCTs in ways not transparent to old firmware. But the format used by > RQDX1 and RQDX2 is quite different to RQDX3 and I wonder if the drive is the > "wrong" format? Isn't a uVAX 2000 the same format as RQDX1/2? > The format did occur to me, but I thought that being readable in a 2000 it would be OK in a II since the 2000 came later than the II. I have not low-level formatted this RD53 as it worked in the 2000 without issue once I had unstuck the heads. I will try the problem RD53 in my working II and see if it is readable there. If not then I'll reformat the RD53 in the 2000 because I did this once before on an RD53 that I use in my working machine. > The last possibility I can think of is that there are a few active devices on an > M9058. They're mostly Schmitt triggers and open-collector inverters used to > buffer signals from RQDX to drive (and v.v.), but some are differential buffers > for the MFM data. Maybe one of those has gone. > You could of course test the M9058 in the BA23. Just ignore the BA23's > normal drive cabling and connect the RQDX in the BA23 via the 50-pin cable > to the M9058, and cable the drive to that as if it were in a BA123. The M9058 > has no connections to the backplane except for power and won't interfere > with anything else. If the formatting things above do not work I will try this. I am also hoping to borrow an M9058 from a friend, that may also help to narrow down the problem. There are not many ICs on the M9058 and most of them look to be easily replaceable, but I would need to diagnose which one is the faulty one. Regards Rob From mike at fenz.net Thu Sep 1 16:31:53 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 09:31:53 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <4E5FCD96.1060309@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4E5F7AE7.6000704@fenz.net> <4E5FCD96.1060309@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 19:23:18 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I doubt this is the cause, but I once had a similar effect with a BBC > Micro and a Torch disk pack PSU. The Torch processor, mounted upside > down inside the lid of the BBC Micro, fell off and shorted something on > the main PCB below. The PSU apparently shut down, but had a serious > voltage overshoot when it started up again, and put about 8V or more > onto the 5V rail. That took out quite a few LSTTL chips. Oh, and the > way we found out which ones was to put a big bench 5V PSU on the machine > and see what got hot because it was drawing too much current... It is possible I guess. I might have to work on the assumption that a good number of the ICs on this board are dead. Fortunately, most of them still seem to be easily available. And besides, I like working on these things, right? I should be happy that my enjoyment will be stretched out a little... I should try to figure out exactly how the video encoder works in these things. I hear the design is a bit... creative. Maybe there's a decent description on the web somewhere. >> Silly question of the day: I'm guessing no-one would have any idea where >> I'd find a 14.25045MHz crystal in New Zealand... > No, but the standard crystal in an Apple ][ is a 14.318MHz crystal, and > that's a standard so should be very easy to find. I wonder if yours is > a special value for a non-US market? But AFAIR even the Apple Europlus > used 14.318MHz. This is the value I remember from many years ago when I used to mess about with these machines. It would explain why the crystal was floating in the air rather than glued to the board as it normally is. Looking carefully, it looks like someone has had a fiddle with a few of the frequency settings. The 50/60Hz pads have been changed from default, too. I expect this machine was imported into NZ (probably from the US) when it was relatively new, and someone's converted it to the local frame rate. Seems strange when most monitors would have worked with it as it was. Pondering... if this machine has 50/60Hz pads to switch it over, why would anyone need to replace the crystal? It seems a bit odd. Anyway, I'm strongly tempted to return it to its default configuration, though I'm sure it'll work fine set up the way it is. At least I have a choice; if I can't find a 14.25045MHz crystal, 14.318 would probably work fine. Cheers, Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 1 15:15:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 21:15:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC GIGI (again) In-Reply-To: <4E5EA342.9030909@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Aug 31, 11 02:10:26 pm Message-ID: > > I dug my GIGI out of the pile this weekend, during a visit to my stuff > in Kansas City. I notice it is running out 4 bnc's and recall that the > Dec monitor I had at one time had that sort of feed. Is it as easy as 4 > of 5 wires (sync on green maybe) to get it going? I suspec the original mnonitor was a DEC VR241. This is a TV rate (RS170) colour monitor. The inputs are either RGB + composite sync on 4 BNCs or RGB (Sync on green) on 3 of the BNCs, selected by a swtich on the back. FWIW, i am pretty sure this monitor is actually a Hitachi design. The PSU cicruit (in fact driven by the horizontal oscillator after startup) and the thick-film hybrid module cotnainign he vertical defleciton system all pint to this. You say toyr terminal has 4 BNCs. Are these labelled in any way? It's not unheard-of for DEC to have RGB (sync on green) on 3 BNC connector and a separate monochrome composite video siganl on another connctor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 1 15:23:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 21:23:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <632b698c9c769792c80672d74f602f88@vodafone.co.nz> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Sep 1, 11 11:06:24 am Message-ID: > Right - this monitor is doing more than just rolling, the text only appears > on the right side of the screen, and it's not stable in X or Y. I might > look at it on an NTSC monitor just to make sure the rates are right, but I > suspect that there are nasty things going on with the output. More work > required. A small mono monitor that you _know_ can sync to US and European TV_rate video is a very handy thing on the test bench :-) But I think you're right, there would appear to be other faults here. At least all the video circuitry is plain TTL so it shouldn't be hard to get spares, and all the timing sigals (derrived from the counter chain) are (or at least should be) repetitive, so you can sort things out iwth a normal 'scope, you don't need storage facilities. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 1 15:28:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 21:28:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <33608df272da3eaf496c363b1bd24b6e@vodafone.co.nz> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Sep 1, 11 11:10:07 am Message-ID: > In a way I'm lucky then. The crystal is on very long legs, hovering above > the board, and it was completely obvious that it wasn't attached as it > should be. Easier than an invisible fault. That doesn't sound original to me. Every Apple ][ I've seen, and every picture I've seen, has the crystal mounted close ot the board. Had this been a Europlus, I would assme it had been converted from a US version at some point (the mod, as I am sure you know, involves vuting and sumpering some sodler pads and chaning the master clock crystal). I assume you've checked the crystal is the right one, and that the jumper pads are in the right states. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 1 15:43:08 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 21:43:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5EE907.6070001@verizon.net> from "Keith Monahan" at Aug 31, 11 10:08:07 pm Message-ID: > Right. Of course you can also use TIFF, which is somewhere in between. >From what I understand. TIFF covers a multitude of sins ;-) It is quite psosible to have a program that can handle some TIFF files and not ohters, for ecxample. > It's not lossy like jpeg, stores 16-bit (many cameras' sensors output > 14), but still permanently bakes the white balance. > > Of the crowd who support keeping the RAW images around (some just > post-process immediately to TIFF or JPEG, and discard the .RAW) suggest > converting to .DNG, and keeping both the RAW and DNG. Of course > everything is mostly duplicated, but it's my feeling that original disk > space, backup disk space, and bandwidth is cheap and so I couldn't care > less about sort of doubling my requirements. I don;t see that as a solution. In an _ideal_ world, every image would also be printed at a high resolution on archival paper :-). And it would also be converted to a standrd (e.g. JFIF) format, even though this results in loss of qualtiy, just in case that's all that could be read in the future. But as we all know, things don't always happen like that. The point bing that the image to need to recover years from now may never have been converted to TIFF or DNG or whatecer. Or the DNG fiel may be corrupt., [...] > Besides, there's some "vendor lock-in" when you buy Nikon (or > whomever's) lenses --- you would have to sell your stuff second hand and That;'s not the same problem at all. From where I am sitting I can see a dozen film cameeras with interchangable leses, all with different mouts, regiser distancs, etc. So, no, I can;t take the lens from an Exakta Varex and put it on a Miranda Sensorex, or from a Werra and put it on an Olympus Pen FT, or wahtever .But once I've taken the photograph using the lens/body of my choice ,the resulting film negative can be printed withouit refernce to the camear that took it. In other words, if you gave be a roll of 120 film negativs from a 'blad (a camera I don't own), I could print them. I don;t have to worry that the lens from my Pentacon 6 would not fit that camera. This is most certainly not true of handling RAW digital image files. > then rebuy a different manufacturer, just to deal with basically the > same problems. The third party lens manufacturers that produce > compatible lenses are usually sub-standard(but admittedly cheaper) -- > the glass from Nikon is better than tamron, sigma, and so on. Not to > mention, there are some real benefits to using Nikon glass on Nikon > body. An example is auto-correction of lens flaws (perhaps, say, > chromatic aberration) inside the body. I am dern sure my Nikon doesn't do this... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 1 15:55:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 21:55:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <4E5F7AE7.6000704@fenz.net> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Sep 2, 11 00:30:31 am Message-ID: > > Well, another step forward. Thanks to Tony's advice, I continued > investigating the video output, and found another dead IC (74LS51 this > time). I'm beginning to wonder how a machine could end up with so many > faulty ICs; that's two in just the video circuitry. Maybe the original ICs do fail, but I wonder if this board has been mistreated in some way. > PSU short to ground did something horrible. I now get a clean video > display (which rolls on the Monitor ///, but that's not a big surprise). > At this point though, I really need to replace the crystal. Holding it > so the broken leg makes contact with one hand while powering the machine > up with the other really isn't a good way of going about things; this is > why the picture's still rolling, I can't adjust the hold on the monitor > and keep the crystal steady enough with the other hand! Can you not solder the wire back to the crystal, at least as a temporary fix? > > Silly question of the day: I'm guessing no-one would have any idea where > I'd find a 14.25045MHz crystal in New Zealand... At one times there were companeis who would make any crystal you wanted (within reason), the cost went up spectacularly if you wanted it very accurate, or wanted it quickly. But if you could wait a few months for the part, it was affordable. Radio amateurs used ot get odd crystals made ot put ex-PMR radios on the amateur bands, for example, but I guess that's not done much any more. Anyhow, there may still be such compaines around,worth a look anyway. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 1 16:47:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 22:47:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <4E5FCD96.1060309@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Sep 1, 11 07:23:18 pm Message-ID: > > Silly question of the day: I'm guessing no-one would have any idea where > > I'd find a 14.25045MHz crystal in New Zealand... > > No, but the standard crystal in an Apple ][ is a 14.318MHz crystal, and > that's a standard so should be very easy to find. I wonder if yours is > a special value for a non-US market? But AFAIR even the Apple Europlus > used 14.318MHz. I've not batteld throught the timing circuitry, but the Apple ][ Reference Manual includes a section entitled 'Eurapple (50Hz) Modification' which describes the cut-n-jumper pads on the mainboard. It ends with 'Warning : This modification will void the warranty on your Apple and requires the installation of a different main crystal. This modification is not for beginners'. So it appears the crystal is different for US and European models. I don;t have a Europlus to hand to check. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 1 17:01:08 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 23:01:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Sep 2, 11 09:31:53 am Message-ID: > I should try to figure out exactly how the video encoder works in these > things. I hear the design is a bit... creative. Maybe there's a decent > description on the web somewhere. Actually, the video timing chain looks quite conventional. > > >> Silly question of the day: I'm guessing no-one would have any idea where > > >> I'd find a 14.25045MHz crystal in New Zealand... > > No, but the standard crystal in an Apple ][ is a 14.318MHz crystal, and > > that's a standard so should be very easy to find. I wonder if yours is > > a special value for a non-US market? But AFAIR even the Apple Europlus > > used 14.318MHz. > > This is the value I remember from many years ago when I used to mess about > with these machines. It would explain why the crystal was floating in the > air rather than glued to the board as it normally is. Looking carefully, it > looks like someone has had a fiddle with a few of the frequency settings. > The 50/60Hz pads have been changed from default, too. I expect this machine > was imported into NZ (probably from the US) when it was relatively new, and > someone's converted it to the local frame rate. Seems strange when most > monitors would have worked with it as it was. > > Pondering... if this machine has 50/60Hz pads to switch it over, why would > anyone need to replace the crystal? It seems a bit odd. The cut/jumperpads appear to change the numebr of lines per frame only. In other words, in the '60Hz' position, you get 525 line 60Hz video. If you changthe padsettings, you'll get something _close_ to 625 line 50Hz video, but with the US horizotnal frequency (15750 Hz) not the European one ((15625 Hz). Most monitors will hve no problem wit htat at all, of course, but some things might. What is the current setting of the pads? -tony From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Sep 1 17:59:56 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 18:59:56 -0400 Subject: DEC GIGI (again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E600E6C.6080402@verizon.net> On 09/01/2011 04:15 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I dug my GIGI out of the pile this weekend, during a visit to my stuff >> in Kansas City. I notice it is running out 4 bnc's and recall that the >> Dec monitor I had at one time had that sort of feed. Is it as easy as 4 >> of 5 wires (sync on green maybe) to get it going? > I suspec the original mnonitor was a DEC VR241. This is a TV rate (RS170) > colour monitor. The inputs are either RGB + composite sync on 4 BNCs or > RGB (Sync on green) on 3 of the BNCs, selected by a swtich on the back. > > FWIW, i am pretty sure this monitor is actually a Hitachi design. The PSU > cicruit (in fact driven by the horizontal oscillator after startup) and > the thick-film hybrid module cotnainign he vertical defleciton system all > pint to this. The monitor that was used with that was the BARCO which predates the VR241 by many years. > You say toyr terminal has 4 BNCs. Are these labelled in any way? It's not > unheard-of for DEC to have RGB (sync on green) on 3 BNC connector and a > separate monochrome composite video siganl on another connctor. > The 4 were Mono, RED Green and blue. For color it was sync on green. When using the mono it was RS170 composite. (Any monitor capable of black and white). Allison From mike at fenz.net Thu Sep 1 18:04:22 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 11:04:22 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <853eb0da7783db7b29018d9a01a0df79@vodafone.co.nz> On Thu, 1 Sep 2011 21:55:49 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> Well, another step forward. Thanks to Tony's advice, I continued >> investigating the video output, and found another dead IC (74LS51 this >> time). I'm beginning to wonder how a machine could end up with so many >> faulty ICs; that's two in just the video circuitry. Maybe the original > ICs do fail, but I wonder if this board has been mistreated in some way. That's my guess. Physically it looks spotless - not even any dust, it looks near-new. Another nice thing is that at some stage, someone has replacd the ROM sockets with nice turned-pin ones, so I probably don't need to worry about bad sockets there. One thing that is odd is that there's a white dust on the other sockets, around the legs of the ICs. I was highly suspicious of this initially, but on close inspection with a magnifying glass, the sockets seem OK (if a bit cheap), and measuring them indicates they're making good contact. I'm still a bit nervous about this though. Many of the legs of the ICs have discolouration, often ending up black. Cleaning them seems to sort that out. I'm wondering if some of the machine's issues are due to it being stored in a mildly corrosive environment. But, there's no trace of corrosion on any other surfaces, only the IC legs. Further issues in this machine could be from ICs with dirty legs, I suppose. >> PSU short to ground did something horrible. I now get a clean video >> display (which rolls on the Monitor ///, but that's not a big surprise). >> At this point though, I really need to replace the crystal. Holding it >> so the broken leg makes contact with one hand while powering the machine >> up with the other really isn't a good way of going about things; this is >> why the picture's still rolling, I can't adjust the hold on the monitor >> and keep the crystal steady enough with the other hand! > Can you not solder the wire back to the crystal, at least as a temporary > fix? The broken leg came off almost perfectly flush with the bottom of the crystal can. Believe me, I've tried to solder something to the stub, but there's just not enough there to make a connection with acceptable strength. I do want a crystal of the original frequency; this mod looks like it was a period thing (quite a standard procedure though, from your earlier post), so I'd like to keep it as part of this machine. I wouldn't really feel bad about returning it to NTSC-ish behaviour though. I'll drop in to RS on the way home from work today and grab a 14.318MHz crystal. That should allow me to work on the thing this weekend. >> Silly question of the day: I'm guessing no-one would have any idea where >> I'd find a 14.25045MHz crystal in New Zealand... > At one times there were companeis who would make any crystal you wanted > (within reason), the cost went up spectacularly if you wanted it very > accurate, or wanted it quickly. But if you could wait a few months for > the part, it was affordable. Radio amateurs used ot get odd crystals made > ot put ex-PMR radios on the amateur bands, for example, but I guess > that's not done much any more. > Anyhow, there may still be such compaines around,worth a look anyway. It may be the only way to get hold of a crystal like that. On the other hand, Rakon (fairly large crystal manufacturer) is just one suburb over from where I live. Maybe they'd be helpful. Will see what happens. Cheers, Mike From mike at fenz.net Thu Sep 1 18:08:18 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 11:08:18 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <367ce946ef782cb9c17f7780bf8028af@vodafone.co.nz> On Thu, 1 Sep 2011 23:01:08 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> I should try to figure out exactly how the video encoder works in these >> things. I hear the design is a bit... creative. Maybe there's a decent >> description on the web somewhere. > Actually, the video timing chain looks quite conventional. Right - thinking back, it was only the colour encoding side of things that was a bit strange. I don't know much about NTSC or the way the Apple II does it. Might do some research there in that case, though I think that side of things is all fine now. > The cut/jumperpads appear to change the numebr of lines per frame only. > In other words, in the '60Hz' position, you get 525 > line 60Hz video. If you changthe padsettings, you'll get something > _close_ to 625 line 50Hz video, but with the US horizotnal frequency > (15750 Hz) not the European one ((15625 Hz). Most monitors will hve no > problem wit htat at all, of course, but some things might. Right, that explains quite a lot. > What is the current setting of the pads? The pads have all been changed over to 50Hz, and the crystal's been replaced. Sounds like the complete conversion's been done. I'll try running it on a the 14.318MHz crystal; from what you say above, I doubt I'll have an issue with that. Cheers, Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 1 19:04:41 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 17:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110901170338.R33300@shell.lmi.net> > > mention, there are some real benefits to using Nikon glass on Nikon > > body. An example is auto-correction of lens flaws (perhaps, say, > > chromatic aberration) inside the body. On Thu, 1 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > I am dern sure my Nikon doesn't do this... Maybe John Titor's does From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Sep 1 19:28:33 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 01:28:33 +0100 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E602331.9090100@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/09/2011 22:47, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Silly question of the day: I'm guessing no-one would have any idea where >>> I'd find a 14.25045MHz crystal in New Zealand... >> No, but the standard crystal in an Apple ][ is a 14.318MHz crystal, and >> that's a standard so should be very easy to find. I wonder if yours is >> a special value for a non-US market? But AFAIR even the Apple Europlus >> used 14.318MHz. > > I've not batteld throught the timing circuitry, but the Apple ][ > Reference Manual includes a section entitled 'Eurapple (50Hz) > Modification' which describes the cut-n-jumper pads on the mainboard. It > ends with 'Warning : This modification will void the warranty on your > Apple and requires the installation of a different main crystal. This > modification is not for beginners'. So it appears the crystal is > different for US and European models. I remember the warning, I just didn't remember there being different crystals. So I dug out my Europlus, and sure enough, I misremembered. The crystal is 14.25045MHz instead of 14.31818MHz. Oops, sorry! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jws at jwsss.com Thu Sep 1 19:37:04 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 17:37:04 -0700 Subject: DEC GIGI (again) In-Reply-To: <4E600E6C.6080402@verizon.net> References: <4E600E6C.6080402@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E602530.9010506@jwsss.com> > On 09/01/2011 04:15 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I dug my GIGI out of the pile this weekend, during a visit to my stuff >>> in Kansas City. I notice it is running out 4 bnc's and recall that the >>> Dec monitor I had at one time had that sort of feed. Is it as easy >>> as 4 >>> of 5 wires (sync on green maybe) to get it going? >> I suspec the original mnonitor was a DEC VR241. This is a TV rate >> (RS170) >> colour monitor. The inputs are either RGB + composite sync on 4 BNCs or >> RGB (Sync on green) on 3 of the BNCs, selected by a swtich on the back. >> >> FWIW, i am pretty sure this monitor is actually a Hitachi design. The >> PSU >> cicruit (in fact driven by the horizontal oscillator after startup) and >> the thick-film hybrid module cotnainign he vertical defleciton system >> all >> pint to this. > The monitor that was used with that was the BARCO which predates the > VR241 > by many years. > >> You say toyr terminal has 4 BNCs. Are these labelled in any way? It's >> not >> unheard-of for DEC to have RGB (sync on green) on 3 BNC connector and a >> separate monochrome composite video siganl on another connctor. >> > The 4 were Mono, RED Green and blue. For color it was sync on green. > When using the mono it was RS170 composite. (Any monitor capable of > black and white). > > Allison At random times, I had acquired some Microvax 38 and cables and a dec badged sony monitor, probably 17 or 19" I used the BNC inputs (not the microvax cable) and was able to run the GIGI with it. I got the GIGI from a scrap dealer in Kansas City, Mo, probably 20 years ago, but no monitor at that time. The monitor was perfectly happy to work with the Microvax systems and a keyboard for some time as well. Sony monitors as OEM devices were reputed to support striped sync (5 wire) composite sync (4 wire) and Sync on green (3 wire), which was actually why I wanted that monitor, as it ran well with a variety of devices. There were still a number of vendors who managed to invert sync, and such tricks, and so I was never able to use it for a universal monitor, but it was my best bench monitor for a long time, along with an OEM Hitachi, which worked on some RT and Sun systems I had at various times. thanks to the list for the replies on and off list, I should have no problem figureing it out. Jim From mike at fenz.net Thu Sep 1 19:52:55 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 12:52:55 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <4E602331.9090100@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4E602331.9090100@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 02 Sep 2011 01:28:33 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I remember the warning, I just didn't remember there being different > crystals. So I dug out my Europlus, and sure enough, I misremembered. > The crystal is 14.25045MHz instead of 14.31818MHz. Thanks for going to the trouble of checking, it's always good to have a bit of verification. On the annoying side, it looks like Farnell Australia doesn't stock 14.25045MHz crystals. Actually, looks like they don't exist at all, having turned into something called Element14, though their range of crystals does still seem pretty good. Cheers, Mike From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Sep 1 21:02:07 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 02:02:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Intel MDS available in SC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Aug 2011, Richard Cini wrote: > All -- > > I got an email from someone in Landrum, SC (close to Greenville and > Greer) regarding an Intel MDS system with disks, manuals and the 8080 pod. I > don?t have the room for it and the person doesn?t really want to ship it, so > I thought I?d mention it here. If anyone?s interested, contact me off-list > for the person?s contact info. So, I gave the gentleman a call, and it looks like he's not in a hurry to be rid of it, and he wants substantial money for it. My guess is he won't take an offer under $200: I offered under $100 and he laughed. He certainly doesnn't want to ship it, so I have no idea how he'll ever be able to sell it... I'm 4.5 hours away in Raleigh and he says I'm the closest person to show any interest so far. Alexey From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 1 21:49:32 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 22:49:32 -0400 Subject: Adrian's PDP-8 paper tapes, was Re: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> <4E5EA200.8020401@neurotica.com> <4E5EADDF.1070307@neurotica.com> <47F0C964085F453A9C4FF4666FDF298B@portajara> <6CAE6913-49F3-4911-845F-FC1304ADF7DC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E60443C.9010301@neurotica.com> On 09/01/2011 01:48 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > anyhow goes back to figuring out my asr33's paper tape reader so i can boot > my pdp8a with my jerrel-ash tapes > http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/6089172843/sizes/l/in/photostream/ Hey, what's the company name on those tapes? Are you able to make binary images of them? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 22:25:18 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 22:25:18 -0500 Subject: Adrian's PDP-8 paper tapes, was Re: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E60443C.9010301@neurotica.com> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> <4E5EA200.8020401@neurotica.com> <4E5EADDF.1070307@neurotica.com> <47F0C964085F453A9C4FF4666FDF298B@portajara> <6CAE6913-49F3-4911-845F-FC1304ADF7DC@neurotica.com> <4E60443C.9010301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: jerrel-ash i have no idea how to make binaries would love to know how to make them and turn them into tapes though havent figured out the teletype for tapes yet but i do have a heathkit h10 that works if one could walk me through that thing i would be happy to do it http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1291/boxus.jpg ps i've been a dec head since i was stuffing penies in the rainbow 100 way back in 1989 On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/01/2011 01:48 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> anyhow goes back to figuring out my asr33's paper tape reader so i can >> boot >> my pdp8a with my jerrel-ash tapes >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/**1ajs/6089172843/sizes/l/in/**photostream/ >> > > Hey, what's the company name on those tapes? Are you able to make binary > images of them? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 22:27:07 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 22:27:07 -0500 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <20110901170338.R33300@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110901170338.R33300@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 7:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > mention, there are some real benefits to using Nikon glass on Nikon > > > body. An example is auto-correction of lens flaws (perhaps, say, > > > chromatic aberration) inside the body. > > On Thu, 1 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am dern sure my Nikon doesn't do this... > > Maybe John Titor's does > > > > aww good old coast to coast am From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Sep 1 22:29:12 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:29:12 -0700 Subject: Intel MDS available in SC In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 02:02:07 +0000 > From: alexeyt at freeshell.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Intel MDS available in SC > > On Fri, 19 Aug 2011, Richard Cini wrote: > > > All -- > > > > I got an email from someone in Landrum, SC (close to Greenville and > > Greer) regarding an Intel MDS system with disks, manuals and the 8080 pod. I > > don?t have the room for it and the person doesn?t really want to ship it, so > > I thought I?d mention it here. If anyone?s interested, contact me off-list > > for the person?s contact info. > > So, I gave the gentleman a call, and it looks like he's not in a hurry to > be rid of it, and he wants substantial money for it. My guess is he won't > take an offer under $200: I offered under $100 and he laughed. He > certainly doesnn't want to ship it, so I have no idea how he'll ever be > able to sell it... I'm 4.5 hours away in Raleigh and he says I'm the > closest person to show any interest so far. > > Alexey Hi What is included? Dwight From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Sep 1 22:50:19 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 15:50:19 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue References: <4E602331.9090100@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <687C416D504D4C37A0B6F79998A1BE64@massey.ac.nz> Mike, lemme check on a couple of my Apple II+ clones junk boards. They might have an appropriate crystal. Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike van Bokhoven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 12:52 PM Subject: Re: Apple II over-current issue > On Fri, 02 Sep 2011 01:28:33 +0100, Pete Turnbull > > wrote: >> I remember the warning, I just didn't remember there being different >> crystals. So I dug out my Europlus, and sure enough, I misremembered. >> The crystal is 14.25045MHz instead of 14.31818MHz. > > Thanks for going to the trouble of checking, it's always good to have a > bit > of verification. > > On the annoying side, it looks like Farnell Australia doesn't stock > 14.25045MHz crystals. Actually, looks like they don't exist at all, having > turned into something called Element14, though their range of crystals > does > still seem pretty good. > > Cheers, > Mike > > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Sep 1 23:29:18 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 21:29:18 -0700 Subject: SunOS booting woes (was Re: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E605B9E.2090901@mail.msu.edu> First, a belated thanks to the many people who helped me out finding SunOS 4.1.1 images for my Sun3. I now have a CD image that contains both Sun3 and Sun4 binaries, as well as a set of QIC boot tapes for same. Unfortunately, I haven't had a lot of luck getting either to boot on my machine. What I'm getting when attempting to boot from either CD or Tape: Boot: st(0,0,0) Error (PSR = 0x203) Timeout Bus Error: Vaddr: 02000000, Paddr 00000000, Write, FC 5, Size 2 at 0xFEFE0926 When booting from CD, the drive spins up and the access light flickers a bit for a fraction of a second before the above diagnostic is spit out, for tape, the tape is accessed for 15-20 seconds before the error pops up. I'm unsure what this diagnostic message indicates. What I've got set up here is kind of a mishmash of parts -- the chassis is a Sun 3/150 (6-slot VME) and what I'm attempting to run in it is configured as follows: Slot 0: Sun 3/4xx CPU (501-1550) with mono (bwtwo) framebuffer in the P4 slot. Slot 1: 32MB memory (501-1451) Slot 2: Sun3 SCSI (501-1217) I've verified that the jumpers on the backplane are configured correctly (via the guide here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/sun/sun3/813-2038-05_Sun-3_150_Card_Assignments.pdf). I've also ensured that the SCSI chain is properly terminated (at the moment I only have a tape drive or CD drive connected.) The CD drive is jumpered for 512-byte blocks, the tape drive is just a plain old QIC-150 which I've used with Sun machines before. The machine passes all diagnostics and -seems- to be running fine, I just can't get it to boot anything. I have not yet tried netbooting (I don't currently have a *nix machine set up to do the job). I also have a spare 3/4xx CPU and spare 32mb board -- I get exactly the same results with those installed. I do have a Sun 3/150 CPU board, and if I install that I can get it to boot from tape (it's too old to attempt a CD boot) but I don't have any memory for it other than the 4mb onboard, which is pretty tight. I'd love to get the 3/400 cpu running -- anyone have any suggestions? Thanks as always, Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 2 01:12:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 02:12:59 -0400 Subject: Adrian's PDP-8 paper tapes, was Re: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> <4E5EA200.8020401@neurotica.com> <4E5EADDF.1070307@neurotica.com> <47F0C964085F453A9C4FF4666FDF298B@portajara> <6CAE6913-49F3-4911-845F-FC1304ADF7DC@neurotica.com> <4E60443C.9010301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E6073EB.6010605@neurotica.com> On 09/01/2011 11:25 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > jerrel-ash > > i have no idea how to make binaries would love to know how to make them and > turn them into tapes though havent figured out the teletype for tapes yet > but i do have a heathkit h10 that works if one could walk me through that > thing i would be happy to do it I've never used an H10, but if we can get your ASR-33 working, especially getting it talking to a modern-ish machine, we might be able to do it with that. > http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1291/boxus.jpg Hey wait a minute...That big "F" design on the paper tape labels, that looks like the Fisher Scientific logo. Is it? > ps i've been a dec head since i was stuffing penies in the rainbow 100 way > back in 1989 *snicker* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 2 01:44:28 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 02:44:28 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5F7FEC.5020507@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5EC8EE.20405@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED23A.9090205@verizon.net> <4E5ED6E8.2030601@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED934.4010100@neurotica.com> <4E5EE907.6070001@verizon.net> <4E5F7FEC.5020507@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E607B4C.9010906@neurotica.com> On 09/01/2011 08:51 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > So how DO we fix this? Stallman's spent the past 25 years trying to get > this concept through thick heads. Sure, he started the biggest software > revolution in history, but until we break reliance on > closed-proprietary-obsolescent code (such as camera firmware and > drivers), we live in a house of cards. Often it's commercial users who > are the most screwed. It is a tough problem to solve. I tend to say "screw the commercial users" due to my utter contempt and overall disdain for profit-mongering suits, but I realize not everyone feels that way. (walk a mile in my shoes, etc) > TL;DR: The open source revolution has barely impacted _devices_ > (including computer components& peripherals). Except for the fact that a great many of them RUN open-source software, or software derived from open source. I do see and agree with your actual point, though. >> They all give you >> a utility to convert to more convenient formats. Unfortunately, their >> marketing depts try to leverage the format in sales -- saying, "look at >> the neat stuff we can do with our RAW files". Usually the benefits are >> very minor. > > It's rather important (to pros) if it's the only uncompressed > alternative to JPEG. I agree with what you're saying, due to the lossy nature of JPEG, but there's another important point here: RAW files contain a lot more information than a photographic negative. Is it reasonable to assert that, from a data future-proofing perspective, digital photography is inferior to film photography, if what will most likely be lost in the future is the ability to get at the data that will never exist in the film world anyway? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 2 01:47:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 02:47:39 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5EC79A.4040406@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5E8C37.7070608@neurotica.com> <4E5EC79A.4040406@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E607C0B.70201@neurotica.com> On 08/31/2011 07:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Is it at least the case that someone can "see the damn image" (which >> is usually the end point of digital imaging anyway) even if a lot of the >> metadata, layering, etc etc aren't usable? > > Unless the "flattened" (composited) image is baked in, then you can see > most of the constituent parts (e.g. image layers, masks) but you can't > see what the whole would actually look like. Which is why my tool is > really aimed at scavenging what can be scavenged > ( http://telegraphics.com.au/svn/psdparse/trunk - there's a very fast > command line converter to Gimp XCF in there, too). > > As for metadata, some of the structure of it is documented, but detailed > interpretation is another matter. Again -- this speaks to a desire to > hinder competition& interoperability. If the Gimp knew exactly how to > render a PSD, then this would probably eat away at Adobe's extortionate > licensing :) I hear you there. But what about getting just a human-usable version of the image, without all the metadata? The original discussion here was comparing the non-losability of film-based images (which is a farce anyway, as negatives do deteriorate over time no matter how well-kept they are) which won't have all that metadata anyway. If the "flattened" image isn't present in a particular PSD file (is it possible for it not to be?) is it at all possible to "get there from here", as it were? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 01:48:33 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 01:48:33 -0500 Subject: Adrian's PDP-8 paper tapes, was Re: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E6073EB.6010605@neurotica.com> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> <4E5EA200.8020401@neurotica.com> <4E5EADDF.1070307@neurotica.com> <47F0C964085F453A9C4FF4666FDF298B@portajara> <6CAE6913-49F3-4911-845F-FC1304ADF7DC@neurotica.com> <4E60443C.9010301@neurotica.com> <4E6073EB.6010605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: sure is a fisher logo and i got a nice pile of brochures and other cool stuff to boot http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/9946/atomcomps.jpg this was kinda neat to find in the pile of stuff i got with it including the teletype corispondance's with the sales people http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3863/atom005.jpg http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/2973/atom004.jpg the h10 uses a parelel port instead of searial. On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 1:12 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/01/2011 11:25 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> jerrel-ash >> >> i have no idea how to make binaries would love to know how to make them >> and >> turn them into tapes though havent figured out the teletype for tapes yet >> but i do have a heathkit h10 that works if one could walk me through that >> thing i would be happy to do it >> > > I've never used an H10, but if we can get your ASR-33 working, especially > getting it talking to a modern-ish machine, we might be able to do it with > that. > > > http://img853.imageshack.us/**img853/1291/boxus.jpg >> > > Hey wait a minute...That big "F" design on the paper tape labels, that > looks like the Fisher Scientific logo. Is it? > > > ps i've been a dec head since i was stuffing penies in the rainbow 100 way >> back in 1989 >> > > *snicker* > > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 01:56:32 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 01:56:32 -0500 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E607C0B.70201@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5E8C37.7070608@neurotica.com> <4E5EC79A.4040406@telegraphics.com.au> <4E607C0B.70201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: film will outlast a solar flare though On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 1:47 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/31/2011 07:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> Is it at least the case that someone can "see the damn image" (which >>> is usually the end point of digital imaging anyway) even if a lot of the >>> metadata, layering, etc etc aren't usable? >>> >> >> Unless the "flattened" (composited) image is baked in, then you can see >> most of the constituent parts (e.g. image layers, masks) but you can't >> see what the whole would actually look like. Which is why my tool is >> really aimed at scavenging what can be scavenged >> ( http://telegraphics.com.au/**svn/psdparse/trunk- there's a very fast >> command line converter to Gimp XCF in there, too). >> >> As for metadata, some of the structure of it is documented, but detailed >> interpretation is another matter. Again -- this speaks to a desire to >> hinder competition& interoperability. If the Gimp knew exactly how to >> render a PSD, then this would probably eat away at Adobe's extortionate >> licensing :) >> > > I hear you there. But what about getting just a human-usable version of > the image, without all the metadata? The original discussion here was > comparing the non-losability of film-based images (which is a farce anyway, > as negatives do deteriorate over time no matter how well-kept they are) > which won't have all that metadata anyway. If the "flattened" image isn't > present in a particular PSD file (is it possible for it not to be?) is it at > all possible to "get there from here", as it were? > > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 2 02:08:24 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 03:08:24 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5E8C37.7070608@neurotica.com> <4E5EC79A.4040406@telegraphics.com.au> <4E607C0B.70201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E6080E8.2070606@neurotica.com> True, but that also depends on what type of media the digital stuff is stored on. -Dave On 09/02/2011 02:56 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > film will outlast a solar flare though > > > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 1:47 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 08/31/2011 07:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> >>> Is it at least the case that someone can "see the damn image" (which >>>> is usually the end point of digital imaging anyway) even if a lot of the >>>> metadata, layering, etc etc aren't usable? >>>> >>> >>> Unless the "flattened" (composited) image is baked in, then you can see >>> most of the constituent parts (e.g. image layers, masks) but you can't >>> see what the whole would actually look like. Which is why my tool is >>> really aimed at scavenging what can be scavenged >>> ( http://telegraphics.com.au/**svn/psdparse/trunk- there's a very fast >>> command line converter to Gimp XCF in there, too). >>> >>> As for metadata, some of the structure of it is documented, but detailed >>> interpretation is another matter. Again -- this speaks to a desire to >>> hinder competition& interoperability. If the Gimp knew exactly how to >>> render a PSD, then this would probably eat away at Adobe's extortionate >>> licensing :) >>> >> >> I hear you there. But what about getting just a human-usable version of >> the image, without all the metadata? The original discussion here was >> comparing the non-losability of film-based images (which is a farce anyway, >> as negatives do deteriorate over time no matter how well-kept they are) >> which won't have all that metadata anyway. If the "flattened" image isn't >> present in a particular PSD file (is it possible for it not to be?) is it at >> all possible to "get there from here", as it were? >> >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 02:17:03 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 02:17:03 -0500 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E6080E8.2070606@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5E8C37.7070608@neurotica.com> <4E5EC79A.4040406@telegraphics.com.au> <4E607C0B.70201@neurotica.com> <4E6080E8.2070606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: true but it does not take much to kill said data if u get the right situation lol just as film is On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 2:08 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > True, but that also depends on what type of media the digital stuff is > stored on. > > -Dave > > > On 09/02/2011 02:56 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> film will outlast a solar flare though >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 1:47 AM, Dave McGuire >> wrote: >> >> On 08/31/2011 07:45 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> >>> Is it at least the case that someone can "see the damn image" (which >>>> >>>>> is usually the end point of digital imaging anyway) even if a lot of >>>>> the >>>>> metadata, layering, etc etc aren't usable? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Unless the "flattened" (composited) image is baked in, then you can see >>>> most of the constituent parts (e.g. image layers, masks) but you can't >>>> see what the whole would actually look like. Which is why my tool is >>>> really aimed at scavenging what can be scavenged >>>> ( http://telegraphics.com.au/****svn/psdparse/trunk >>>> >- >>>> there's a very fast >>>> >>>> command line converter to Gimp XCF in there, too). >>>> >>>> As for metadata, some of the structure of it is documented, but detailed >>>> interpretation is another matter. Again -- this speaks to a desire to >>>> hinder competition& interoperability. If the Gimp knew exactly how to >>>> render a PSD, then this would probably eat away at Adobe's extortionate >>>> licensing :) >>>> >>>> >>> I hear you there. But what about getting just a human-usable version of >>> the image, without all the metadata? The original discussion here was >>> comparing the non-losability of film-based images (which is a farce >>> anyway, >>> as negatives do deteriorate over time no matter how well-kept they are) >>> which won't have all that metadata anyway. If the "flattened" image >>> isn't >>> present in a particular PSD file (is it possible for it not to be?) is it >>> at >>> all possible to "get there from here", as it were? >>> >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> Dave McGuire >>> Port Charlotte, FL >>> >>> > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Sep 2 02:16:47 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 00:16:47 -0700 Subject: SunOS booting woes (was Re: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image) In-Reply-To: <4E605B9E.2090901@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E605B9E.2090901@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E6082DF.90707@mail.msu.edu> Received an offline response -- turns out the Sun 3/400 is Sun3x, not Sun3 (68030 vs 68020). I need to pay closer attention :). Wrote some new tapes for the 3x version of 4.1.1 and it's booting up just fine now. - Josh On 9/1/2011 9:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > First, a belated thanks to the many people who helped me out finding > SunOS 4.1.1 images for my Sun3. I now have a CD image that contains > both Sun3 and Sun4 binaries, as well as a set of QIC boot tapes for same. > > Unfortunately, I haven't had a lot of luck getting either to boot on > my machine. What I'm getting when attempting to boot from either CD > or Tape: > > Boot: st(0,0,0) > Error (PSR = 0x203) Timeout Bus Error: > Vaddr: 02000000, Paddr 00000000, Write, FC 5, Size 2 at 0xFEFE0926 > > When booting from CD, the drive spins up and the access light flickers > a bit for a fraction of a second before the above diagnostic is spit > out, for tape, the tape is accessed for 15-20 seconds before the error > pops up. I'm unsure what this diagnostic message indicates. > > What I've got set up here is kind of a mishmash of parts -- the > chassis is a Sun 3/150 (6-slot VME) and what I'm attempting to run in > it is configured as follows: > > Slot 0: Sun 3/4xx CPU (501-1550) with mono (bwtwo) framebuffer in the > P4 slot. > Slot 1: 32MB memory (501-1451) > Slot 2: Sun3 SCSI (501-1217) > > I've verified that the jumpers on the backplane are configured > correctly (via the guide here: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/sun/sun3/813-2038-05_Sun-3_150_Card_Assignments.pdf). > I've also ensured that the SCSI chain is properly terminated (at the > moment I only have a tape drive or CD drive connected.) The CD drive > is jumpered for 512-byte blocks, the tape drive is just a plain old > QIC-150 which I've used with Sun machines before. > > The machine passes all diagnostics and -seems- to be running fine, I > just can't get it to boot anything. I have not yet tried netbooting > (I don't currently have a *nix machine set up to do the job). I also > have a spare 3/4xx CPU and spare 32mb board -- I get exactly the same > results with those installed. > > I do have a Sun 3/150 CPU board, and if I install that I can get it to > boot from tape (it's too old to attempt a CD boot) but I don't have > any memory for it other than the 4mb onboard, which is pretty tight. > I'd love to get the 3/400 cpu running -- anyone have any suggestions? > > Thanks as always, > Josh > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 2 02:08:20 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 08:08:20 +0100 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: References: <4E602331.9090100@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E6080E4.8000601@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/09/2011 01:52, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > On the annoying side, it looks like Farnell Australia doesn't stock > 14.25045MHz crystals. Actually, looks like they don't exist at all, having > turned into something called Element14, though their range of crystals does > still seem pretty good. Nor do Farnell UK or Newark, and CPC and RS Components (nee Radiospares) don't either. Common ones are 14.31818MHz (common for NTSC standards) and 14.7456MHz (common for high baud rates). The Element14 name amuses some of us. Farnell announced the rebranding a couple of years ago but it doesn't seem to have taken off here, perhaps because Acorn Computers (of BBC Micro, Archimedes and ARM fame) owned and used the name Element14 for a decade. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ceby2 at csc.com Fri Sep 2 04:01:51 2011 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:01:51 +0100 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (Adrian Stoness) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All - Thought I'd de-cloak from lurk mode long enough to canvas opinion or archival formats (again). I'm considering this from a digital media (not paper to digital) at the moment. Considerations for paper and software are similar though. There are many dozen image formats for diskettes and disk drives, just as there are for photographic and paper images. My thought was to avoid the problem by using a non-format. Stay with me on this... basically persist the data in as raw a format as possible, with an externalised, self defining descriptor, all wrapped up in an open archive format to form a single file. The concept being that the long term storage format is just a not the viewer format. You maintain a converter from the storage format to a current viewer format, but you don't actually store the data in the current viewer format. By current viewer, I mean PhotoShop, Acrobat, etc. Here's the basic file layout: xxxxx.zip : raw.bin (a simple sequential byte copy) descriptor.xml ( instructions on how to carve it into sectors, raster lines etc.) *Don't get hung up on *.zip... I know LZW is encumbered... this is just an example. The actual scan output is the raw.bin. It no formatting data at all. The descriptor tells you everything you recorded about the file at scan time which helps you to interpret the data stream later. That could be ratster format, page markers, etc. This should work for a broad range of data for an already digital data format. The problem I have with this approach is where a scan doesn't result in actual digital information. Yeah, ok it's all bytes on disk, but what I mean is sampled data versus byte for byte representation. Paper tape and punch cards are examples of data which is unambiguous in a digital sense, because it contains a fixed encoding stream, with a self evident data word boundary. A card is one character a line, tape one character per linear unit. All you have to do is store the whole thing as a byte encoded stream, and put the metadata in the descriptor (card 1, card 2, etc...). Where this falls down is say for instance, an MFM diskette scanned with a sampling board like a CatWesel. In this case the data returned is basically analogous to sampled analog signals. It's clock ticks between fluctuations. The fluctuations are binary. But their interpretation is based on sampling rate and media rotation. You can sample at higher and higher rates and get more sampling data, if you are working blind. This is less of a problem if you know something about the subject. But otherwise discretion has to be applied to interpret what you've captured. That worries me. I like deterministic outcomes, especially in archival work. You could force an 8 bit boundary on the resulting data, but things like sector headers are sometimes deliberately encoded in fluctuation sequences that don't conform to rest the data encoding. That throws your interpretation of the data off, unless you already know what the sector header formats look like. The only way I can think of to follow the inside-out / no proprietary archival format approach you basically don't transpose to bytes at all, but leave it as sampled fluctuations... not even bits. As with other viewer approaches, you apply the transposition only when you attempt to view the data, not when you store it for archival purposes. Thoughts? Third example... a booked scanned becomes a byte stream of bit map data stored in the raw.bin. The descriptor then encodes the page transitions and raster format, plus discretionary metadata. I like that much better than PDF, TIFF and JFIF. I realise these formats are unlikely to die out, but I like the idea of a common archival format which is self documenting better. I'd be interested in hearing people's (non-flame) comments. Regards, Colin Eby From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 2 04:36:02 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:36:02 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems References: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> <4E5D7583.4020409@dunnington.plus.com> <060501cc67be$e4fe25d0$aefa7170$@ntlworld.com> <4E5EAB04.3030308@dunnington.plus.com> <066a01cc6878$3d0bf5e0$b723e1a0$@ntlworld.com> <000301cc689a$4b02d1b0$e1087510$@ntlworld.com> <4E5FD279.9070200@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <006c01cc6953$bc7f4080$357dc180$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > Sent: 01 September 2011 21:44 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems > > > > Sounds like the software has a problem rather than the hardware. I > > looked back at earlier posts; you said you tested the RD53 in a > > MicroVAX 2000, and the RQDX3 in a BA23 uVAX II. But did that test use > > the same > > RQDX3 with the RD53 in the uVAX II? I /think/ the format put on an > > RDxx by any revision of RQDX3 is the same, though new firmware might > > change things like RCTs in ways not transparent to old firmware. But > > the format used by > > RQDX1 and RQDX2 is quite different to RQDX3 and I wonder if the drive > > is the "wrong" format? Isn't a uVAX 2000 the same format as RQDX1/2? > > > > The format did occur to me, but I thought that being readable in a 2000 it > would be OK in a II since the 2000 came later than the II. I have not low-level > formatted this RD53 as it worked in the 2000 without issue once I had unstuck > the heads. I will try the problem RD53 in my working II and see if it is readable > there. If not then I'll reformat the RD53 in the 2000 because I did this once > before on an RD53 that I use in my working machine. Just tried this, I put the RD53 that won't work into the BA23 and it worked fine. So I think the M9058 must be faulty. I will see if I can identify a faulty component on the board. > > > > The last possibility I can think of is that there are a few active > > devices on an M9058. They're mostly Schmitt triggers and > > open-collector inverters used to buffer signals from RQDX to drive > > (and v.v.), but some are differential buffers for the MFM data. Maybe one > of those has gone. > > You could of course test the M9058 in the BA23. Just ignore the > > BA23's normal drive cabling and connect the RQDX in the BA23 via the > > 50-pin cable to the M9058, and cable the drive to that as if it were > > in a BA123. The M9058 has no connections to the backplane except for > > power and won't interfere with anything else. > Further thought on this suggestion is that it would be physically difficult to achieve this because the M9058 has to be in a Qbus slot and it would be impossible to connect the RD53 to the connectors as the cables I have are way too short. I am not convinced that this test is worth the effort of making some cables to fit because I have already eliminated everything except the M9058, I think my best bet now is to check for faulty components and see if I can buy or borrow a spare M9058. > If the formatting things above do not work I will try this. I am also hoping to > borrow an M9058 from a friend, that may also help to narrow down the > problem. There are not many ICs on the M9058 and most of them look to be > easily replaceable, but I would need to diagnose which one is the faulty one. > Regards Rob From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Sep 2 05:01:30 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 22:01:30 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue References: <4E602331.9090100@dunnington.plus.com> <687C416D504D4C37A0B6F79998A1BE64@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <0E2CB5B21C67460C8E84CD13B82FD4F9@massey.ac.nz> >> crystals. So I dug out my Europlus, and sure enough, I misremembered. >> The crystal is 14.25045MHz instead of 14.31818MHz. > Mike, lemme check on a couple of my Apple II+ clones junk boards. They > might have an appropriate crystal. Nope, I checked and both boards have the common 14.31818MHz crystal. Terry (Tez) From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Sep 2 05:16:30 2011 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 06:16:30 -0400 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <006c01cc6953$bc7f4080$357dc180$@ntlworld.com> References: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> <4E5D7583.4020409@dunnington.plus.com> <060501cc67be$e4fe25d0$aefa7170$@ntlworld.com> <4E5EAB04.3030308@dunnington.plus.com> <066a01cc6878$3d0bf5e0$b723e1a0$@ntlworld.com> <000301cc689a$4b02d1b0$e1087510$@ntlworld.com> <4E5FD279.9070200@dunnington.plus.com> <006c01cc6953$bc7f4080$357dc180$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201109021016.p82AGU0Z011374@rickmurphy.net> At 05:36 AM 9/2/2011, Rob Jarratt wrote: >Just tried this, I put the RD53 that won't work into the BA23 and it >worked >fine. So I think the M9058 must be faulty. I will see if I can identify a >faulty component on the board. What the above doesn't say is that you put the RD53 into the BA23 with the SAME RQDX3 that you are trying to use in the BA123. If you did do that, I would say your conclusion is valid. If you didn't, not so much. -Rick From mike at fenz.net Fri Sep 2 07:05:38 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 00:05:38 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <0E2CB5B21C67460C8E84CD13B82FD4F9@massey.ac.nz> References: <4E602331.9090100@dunnington.plus.com> <687C416D504D4C37A0B6F79998A1BE64@massey.ac.nz> <0E2CB5B21C67460C8E84CD13B82FD4F9@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4E60C692.4070307@fenz.net> On 2/09/2011 10:01 p.m., terry stewart wrote: > Mike, lemme check on a couple of my Apple II+ clones junk boards. > They might have an appropriate crystal. > > Nope, I checked and both boards have the common 14.31818MHz crystal. > Thanks for looking anyway, Terry. I've bought and fitted a 14.31818MHz crystal, which runs the machine fine for now. I'll just have to keep an eye out for sources for the 14.25045MHz one. Cheers, Mike From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 07:31:58 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 07:31:58 -0500 Subject: Tony Sale passed In-Reply-To: <4E5D2590.6050901@bitsavers.org> References: <4E5D2590.6050901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E60CCBE.108@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14720180 FYI, the BBC have now made the clip at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14726045 available worldwide, for anyone who wants to watch it - it'll only be there until the 5th September though (copyright issues with the IWM apparently), after which it'll presumably revert back to being UK-only. cheers Jules From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Sep 2 07:44:26 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 08:44:26 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (Adrian Stoness) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E60CFAA.3000904@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/09/11 5:01 AM, Colin Eby wrote: > All - > > Thought I'd de-cloak from lurk mode long enough to canvas opinion or > archival formats (again). I'm considering this from a digital media (not > paper to digital) at the moment. Considerations for paper and software are > similar though. There are many dozen image formats for diskettes and disk > drives, just as there are for photographic and paper images. My thought was > to avoid the problem by using a non-format. Stay with me on this... > basically persist the data in as raw a format as possible, with an > externalised, self defining descriptor, all wrapped up in an open archive > format to form a single file. The concept being that the long term storage > format is just a not the viewer format. You maintain a converter from the > storage format to a current viewer format, but you don't actually store the > data in the current viewer format. By current viewer, I mean PhotoShop, > Acrobat, etc. Here's the basic file layout: > > xxxxx.zip : > raw.bin (a simple sequential byte copy) > descriptor.xml ( instructions on how to carve it into sectors, raster > lines etc.) > > *Don't get hung up on *.zip... I know LZW is encumbered... this is just an > example. > > The actual scan output is the raw.bin. It no formatting data at all. The > descriptor tells you everything you recorded about the file at scan time > which helps you to interpret the data stream later. That could be ratster > format, page markers, etc. ... Paper tape and > punch cards are examples of data which is unambiguous in a digital sense, > because it contains a fixed encoding stream, with a self evident data word > boundary. A card is one character a line, tape one character per linear > unit. All you have to do is store the whole thing as a byte encoded stream, > and put the metadata in the descriptor (card 1, card 2, etc...). > ... > Third example... a booked scanned becomes a byte stream of bit map data > stored in the raw.bin. The descriptor then encodes the page transitions and > raster format, plus discretionary metadata. I like that much better than > PDF, TIFF and JFIF. I realise these formats are unlikely to die out, but I > like the idea of a common archival format which is self documenting better. > I'd be interested in hearing people's (non-flame) comments. One thing to consider is how the format deals with damage. For example, a series of fixed records (like 80 column card deck) is trivial to deal with when it is intact, but as soon as the framing gets out of whack, it's not going to be easy to resync. In my opinion, file formats should include some provision for scavenging later (which won't recover everything but should limit loss). The same goes for disk structures (filesystems) of course. Unfortunately simply taking a raw uncompressed file and using an "open wrapper archive" around it does little to address this issue. The internal file can be checksummed as a whole to detect corruption and maybe allow the wrapper to skip it en bloc and resync, but (being "as raw as possible") there's not necessarily any internal structure to aid recovery (such as short signature strings marking individual structures). Metadata that exists as file pointers inside a blob (e.g. page or row pointers as you suggest above) can't deal with, e.g., a missing sector; but of course they can of course be helpful when the file is damaged and length is unchanged. --Toby > > Regards, > Colin Eby > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 2 07:45:04 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 13:45:04 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <201109021016.p82AGU0Z011374@rickmurphy.net> References: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> <4E5D7583.4020409@dunnington.plus.com> <060501cc67be$e4fe25d0$aefa7170$@ntlworld.com> <4E5EAB04.3030308@dunnington.plus.com> <066a01cc6878$3d0bf5e0$b723e1a0$@ntlworld.com> <000301cc689a$4b02d1b0$e1087510$@ntlworld.com> <4E5FD279.9070200@dunnington.plus.com> <006c01cc6953$bc7f4080$357dc180$@ntlworld.com> <201109021016.p82AGU0Z011374@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <007801cc696e$24aa4780$6dfed680$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Murphy > Sent: 02 September 2011 11:17 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems > > At 05:36 AM 9/2/2011, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > >Just tried this, I put the RD53 that won't work into the BA23 and it > >worked fine. So I think the M9058 must be faulty. I will see if I can > >identify a faulty component on the board. > > What the above doesn't say is that you put the RD53 into the BA23 with the > SAME RQDX3 that you are trying to use in the BA123. > If you did do that, I would say your conclusion is valid. If you didn't, not so > much. OK, but given all the other combinations I have tried I didn't think that trying the RQDX3 in the BA23 would make any difference, anyway I tried it all the same. To confirm, I put the RQDX3 and the RD53 from the BA123 where the disk is seen as offline, into the BA23, essentially testing with a different distribution panel and a different cable from the RQDX3 to the panel. In this configuration the disk was seen and the MicroVAX II booted off it just fine. Just for good measure I also took the cable from the RQDX3 to the distribution board from the BA123 and put that in the BA23. So now I have the RQDX3, the RD53, and the cable from RQDX3 to the distribution board, all taken from the BA123 and put into the BA23, so now testing just with a different distribution panel (NB I have already tested the cables from the distribution panel to the RD53). It still sees the disk and boots off it. This means it just has to be the distribution panel or the front panel switches. But I checked the Ready switch and observed at the output of the distribution board and at the input of the RQDX3 that the switch open and closed the contact. I think all that is left is the distribution panel itself. What I need now is to borrow or buy an M9058 to test with, and ideally a qbus extender so I can use an oscilloscope to work out which component is failing. Regards Rob From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 08:09:12 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 09:09:12 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (Adrian Stoness) In-Reply-To: <4E60CFAA.3000904@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E60CFAA.3000904@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: LZMA2 for archival (open source, excellent code portability, very efficient) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lzma Plus PARchive Version 3 for data verification and recovery (open source reference libraries, established and well tested format widely used in newsgroups) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchive Just my 2C :) From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 2 09:44:49 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 09:44:49 -0500 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E607C0B.70201@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5E8C37.7070608@neurotica.com> <4E5EC79A.4040406@telegraphics.com.au> <4E607C0B.70201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201109021447.p82ElIvE020441@billy.ezwind.net> At 01:47 AM 9/2/2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >If the "flattened" image isn't present in a particular PSD file (is it possible for it not to be?) is it at all possible to "get there from here", as it were? No, and that's the point he was making. A PhotoShop file probably contains bitmaps, but it also contains all sorts of other info (Bezier paths, masks, who knows what) that is feed-stock for proprietary Adobe code in PhotoShop, or maybe for third-party plug-ins you own. You call it lock-in, someone else calls it twenty years of refined algorithms. - John From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Sep 2 10:27:52 2011 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 08:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1314977272.84093.YahooMailRC@web83703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > What I need now is to borrow or buy an M9058 to test with, and ideally a > qbus extender so I can use an oscilloscope to work out which component is > failing. > > Regards > > Rob All the M9058 is getting from the box is power - you can easily remove it from the chassis, supply power directly from an external supply (solder temporary feed leads above the board fingers if you don't have the right connector). Makes testing a lot easier. Jack From ceby2 at csc.com Fri Sep 2 10:41:35 2011 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 16:41:35 +0100 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (Adrian Stoness) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Toby, >One thing to consider is how the format deals with damage.... Good thought. I wonder if that integrity functional role could be delegated to the container format rather than the payload element. The payload doesn't get internally marked up with checksum blocks, but we rely on LZW/LZW2/other as the guarantor of file integrity. The rest of the scavenging is done by the metadata/descriptor element (like card 1 = byte [xxx]-byte[yyy]). Any damage or ambiguity is noted in this external metadata rather than the actual capture blob. The container ensures that the integrity of the contents are the same as when they were created. The descriptor describes what was known at creation time. Workable? Regards, Colin Eby From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 2 11:20:59 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 09:20:59 -0700 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (Adrian Stoness) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E61026B.4020404@bitsavers.org> On 9/2/11 8:41 AM, Colin Eby wrote: > Workable? > Write it, create a 100tb archive, and let us know in 100 years. From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Sep 2 12:57:41 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:57:41 -0700 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (Adrian Stoness) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Colin Eby Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 2:02 AM > My thought was to avoid the problem by using a non-format. Stay with me > on this... basically persist the data in as raw a format as possible, > with an externalised, self defining descriptor, all wrapped up in an open > archive format to form a single file. The concept being that the long > term storage format is just a not the viewer format. You maintain a > converter from the storage format to a current viewer format, but you > don't actually store the data in the current viewer format. By current > viewer, I mean PhotoShop, Acrobat, etc. Here's the basic file layout: > xxxxx.zip : > raw.bin (a simple sequential byte copy) > descriptor.xml (instructions on how to carve it into sectors, raster > lines etc.) http://www.boogles.com/local/papers/tcfs-thesis/thesis.html This is Brian Zuzga's 1995 undergraduate thesis at MIT on a project to archive the backups done at the MIT AI Lab using what they named "the Time Capsule File System". Nihil novi sub sole (Ecc. 1:9-10). > Where this falls down is say for instance, an MFM diskette scanned > with a sampling board like a CatWesel. [snip] > I like deterministic outcomes, especially in archival work. > You could force an 8 bit boundary on the resulting data, but things > like sector headers are sometimes deliberately encoded in > fluctuation sequences that don't conform to rest the data encoding. That's hardly deterministic, and would certainly not work on, for example, a disk written by a PDP-10 (36 bit words represented as pairs of 18 bits + parity), to take a popular example. There *are* no deterministic outcomes, especially in archival work. There is only interpretation. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ats at offog.org Fri Sep 2 13:52:41 2011 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 19:52:41 +0100 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: (Tony Duell's message of "Thu, 1 Sep 2011 21:55:49 +0100 (BST)") References: Message-ID: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Radio amateurs used ot get odd crystals made ot put ex-PMR radios on > the amateur bands, for example, but I guess that's not done much any > more. Not for PMR conversions, but custom-frequency oscillators are still useful for beacons, SDR receivers, and so on. A common approach these days is to use a programmable clock synthesiser chip, rather than a custom crystal; for example, SiLabs do a range of chips, some of which are factory-programmed to a single frequency (or pair/quad of frequencies with a selection input), and some of which can be adjusted at runtime using I2C: http://www.silabs.com/products/clocksoscillators/xo/ You could, for example, order a CMOS Si510 programmed to the frequency you're after. SiLabs apparently do free samples of some of the fixed-frequency chips... Alternatively, if you can find a cheap crystal for a frequency a bit higher than the one you want, you could try "penning" it down: http://www.hanssummers.com/penning.html -- Adam Sampson From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 2 13:35:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 19:35:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <4E602331.9090100@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Sep 2, 11 01:28:33 am Message-ID: > I remember the warning, I just didn't remember there being different > crystals. So I dug out my Europlus, and sure enough, I misremembered. > The crystal is 14.25045MHz instead of 14.31818MHz. Annoyingly the crystal frequency -- not even for the NTSC model -- is not given anywhere tht I can obviosuly see in the manual. It's not in the 'Eurapple' seticon, and it's not on the schematic (neither the scheamtic pages in the main part of the book or the fold-out one. I will add this information to my manual. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 2 13:41:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 19:41:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <4E6080E4.8000601@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Sep 2, 11 08:08:20 am Message-ID: > The Element14 name amuses some of us. Farnell announced the rebranding > a couple of years ago but it doesn't seem to have taken off here, Well, they still send out parcels (and invoices) with 'Farnell' on them, so I, for one, am not using the new name... To my shame, when I first heard 'Element 14', it took me a few minutes to realise what it was refering to. Yes, I did get it in the end, withuut having to look at a periodic table. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 2 13:43:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 19:43:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E6080E8.2070606@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 2, 11 03:08:24 am Message-ID: > > > True, but that also depends on what type of media the digital stuff > is stored on. Yes, but a (high resolution) digital image takes an awful lot of reels of paper tape to store it.... -tony [...] > > film will outlast a solar flare though From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 2 13:26:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 19:26:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <853eb0da7783db7b29018d9a01a0df79@vodafone.co.nz> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Sep 2, 11 11:04:22 am Message-ID: > That's my guess. Physically it looks spotless - not even any dust, it looks > near-new. Another nice thing is that at some stage, someone has replacd the > ROM sockets with nice turned-pin ones, so I probably don't need to worry > about bad sockets there. But you've got plenty of other 'cheap' sockets to give problems :-)... This reminds me of my Whitechapel MG1, an English 32016-based workstation. The small chips are soldered to the PCB, the 'big stuff' (CPU, FPU, peripheral controller, etc) are all in turned-pin sockets. But the EPROMs (2 for the main processor, one for the peripehral controller) are in cheap sockets. I had plenty of problems before I replaced those sockets with turned-pin ones. > The broken leg came off almost perfectly flush with the bottom of the > crystal can. Believe me, I've tried to solder something to the stub, but Ah, OK... > there's just not enough there to make a connection with acceptable > strength. I do want a crystal of the original frequency; this mod looks > like it was a period thing (quite a standard procedure though, from your > earlier post), so I'd like to keep it as part of this machine. I wouldn't > really feel bad about returning it to NTSC-ish behaviour though. I'll drop > in to RS on the way home from work today and grab a 14.318MHz crystal. That > should allow me to work on the thing this weekend. I thought you said you wanted an Apple ][ +, not a Europlus? If so, youwant to revers the cut/jumper pad modifications (remove the solder from the circlar pads so they are open-circuit again and solder a jumper across the X-shaped ones), and fit the 14.318MHz crystal. That will give you NTSC video. I suspect that was the origianl conmfiguration of the machine, as it left the factory. So going back to that is 'correct', as would be keepign it asa 50Hz machine. I beleive you said you had other 50Hz machines, though, and if I was in that psotion, I'd make this one a 60Hz'er just to have both versions around. -tony From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Sep 2 14:03:58 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 15:03:58 -0400 Subject: mess.org References: Message-ID: <435BC7F82EBC414C8243AD0EA6E263F7@vl420mt> > Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:00:24 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > > On Sep 1, 2011, at 12:52 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> I haven't noticed many "rabid Microsoft fanboys" on this list, > > Oh, there are definitely one or two. I'll be nice today, though. ;) > Hello? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 2 15:26:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 16:26:57 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E613C11.2070100@neurotica.com> On 09/02/2011 02:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> True, but that also depends on what type of media the digital stuff >> is stored on. > > Yes, but a (high resolution) digital image takes an awful lot of reels of > paper tape to store it.... That would be fun to do just on general principle. Is optical media susceptible to solar flares or CMEs? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 2 15:27:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 21:27:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: from "Adam Sampson" at Sep 2, 11 07:52:41 pm Message-ID: > You could, for example, order a CMOS Si510 programmed to the frequency > you're after. SiLabs apparently do free samples of some of the > fixed-frequency chips... Hmm.. I feel that the aim of a computer restoration (as here) is to keep the design as origianl as possible, and not to use devices that clearly were not available (or anything like them) when the machine was made. I would not want to replace th clock oscilaltor in an Apple ][ with one of these chips, therefore. Particualrly since a crystal that 'will work' is avaialbe. > Alternatively, if you can find a cheap crystal for a frequency a bit > higher than the one you want, you could try "penning" it down: > http://www.hanssummers.com/penning.html I believe you can also increase the frequency by careful griding or etching/ The etchants are darn nasty (HF is one of them...) and I suspect it's tricky to do anyway on a sealed-can crystal. Some of the older (50 year old) crystals were in screwed-together cases and could be taken apart for hacks like this. But as I said in a nearlier message, since the OP doesn't have a US model (IIRC), but has several Europlusses, I'd be inclined to revers the Eurapple mod and fit the 14.31818 MHz crystal (which you can get), converting to to the US model. -tony From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 15:40:57 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 15:40:57 -0500 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E613C11.2070100@neurotica.com> References: <4E613C11.2070100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: wonder how big a peac of tape u would need to store a 1meg jpeg in octal would be let along a raw file lol From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 2 17:09:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 18:09:35 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <201109021447.p82ElIvE020441@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5E8C37.7070608@neurotica.com> <4E5EC79A.4040406@telegraphics.com.au> <4E607C0B.70201@neurotica.com> <201109021447.p82ElIvE020441@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E61541F.4090905@neurotica.com> On 09/02/2011 10:44 AM, John Foust wrote: >> If the "flattened" image isn't present in a particular PSD file (is it possible for it not to be?) is it at all possible to "get there from here", as it were? > > No, and that's the point he was making. A PhotoShop file probably contains > bitmaps, but it also contains all sorts of other info (Bezier paths, masks, who > knows what) that is feed-stock for proprietary Adobe code in PhotoShop, > or maybe for third-party plug-ins you own. You call it lock-in, someone > else calls it twenty years of refined algorithms. ...when of course, in reality, it's both. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 2 17:14:28 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 15:14:28 -0700 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E613C11.2070100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E615544.9080307@bitsavers.org> On 9/2/11 1:40 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > wonder how big a peac of tape u would need to store a 1meg jpeg in octal > would be let along a raw file lol > > EIA-RS-227 spcfys .1 nch pr byt, s fgr t t wth clcltr From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 2 18:12:50 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 00:12:50 +0100 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E613C11.2070100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E6162F2.8020108@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/09/2011 21:40, Adrian Stoness wrote: > wonder how big a peac of tape u would need to store a 1meg jpeg in octal > would be let along a raw file lol Well that's easy to work out. Standard 8-level tape is 10 chars/inch and if each byte in the file is encoded as three octal characters you need 3,145,728 characters. Just under 8km of tape. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Sep 2 18:53:31 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 19:53:31 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <201109021447.p82ElIvE020441@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5E8C37.7070608@neurotica.com> <4E5EC79A.4040406@telegraphics.com.au> <4E607C0B.70201@neurotica.com> <201109021447.p82ElIvE020441@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E616C7B.8000703@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/09/11 10:44 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 01:47 AM 9/2/2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> If the "flattened" image isn't present in a particular PSD file (is it possible for it not to be?) Amusingly, no, the format has no way to indicate its omission, so if you don't choose "Maximise Compatibility" when saving, Photoshop saves a dummy flattened image that says "Nothing to see here, move along" in English, Japanese, German and French. > is it at all possible to "get there from here", as it were? > > No, and that's the point he was making. A PhotoShop file probably contains > bitmaps, but it also contains all sorts of other info (Bezier paths, masks, There is a complex PDF-based format for text objects. Layer effects. Adjustments. 3D objects (!!). It's hard even to keep up with the bells and whistles that each version of Photoshop adds; I stopped using it professionally in 2004. The only complete behavioural reference is the code itself (just like MSOOXML)... and we're not allowed to see that. :) > who knows what) that is feed-stock for proprietary Adobe code in PhotoShop, > or maybe for third-party plug-ins you own. You call it lock-in, someone > else calls it twenty years of refined algorithms. The algorithms aren't necessarily very fancy (for example, glow and shadow effects), but even so, reverse engineering them would be excessively difficult. --Toby > > - John > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Sep 2 19:00:04 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 20:00:04 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (Adrian Stoness) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E616E04.5000306@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/09/11 11:41 AM, Colin Eby wrote: > Toby, > >> One thing to consider is how the format deals with damage.... > > Good thought. I wonder if that integrity functional role could be delegated > to the container format rather than the payload element. I don't believe that trying to do integrity measures at the wrapper level will work well. Even if you checksum blocks, and can recover at a block level, you don't know what the recoverable boundaries are. If the payload is a compressed bitstream (that is not designed for recoverability), then no matter what chunk-level recovery is done by the wrapper or transport, you can't recover anything beyond the first damaged bit. HOWEVER, if the file never leaves a high-integrity environment (like ZFS) during its lifetime, the data format itself can be as fragile as you like. All the error detection and healing is done at a layer UNDER the file (in ZFS' case, redundant vdev). That's a fine approach but clearly only possible for tightly controlled situations (and not much good for remote file servers using ordinary protocols, because the network is relatively unreliable). > The payload > doesn't get internally marked up with checksum blocks, but we rely on > LZW/LZW2/other as the guarantor of file integrity. The rest of the > scavenging is done by the metadata/descriptor element (like card 1 = byte > [xxx]-byte[yyy]). Any damage or ambiguity is noted in this external > metadata rather than the actual capture blob. The container ensures that > the integrity of the contents are the same as when they were created. The > descriptor describes what was known at creation time. Workable? I'm not sure I understand what this adds to recoverability. Can you explain another way? I guess my point is that eventually you have to design the payload for recoverability. On the other hand... backups. :) --Toby > > Regards, > Colin Eby > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Sep 2 19:02:56 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 20:02:56 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E616EB0.4090708@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/09/11 2:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> >> True, but that also depends on what type of media the digital stuff >> is stored on. > > Yes, but a (high resolution) digital image takes an awful lot of reels of > paper tape to store it.... A decent 35mm colour transparency carries about 35 megabytes of 8 bit RGB or CMYK (10-15 megapixels, roughly). --Toby > > -tony > > [...] > >>> film will outlast a solar flare though > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Sep 2 19:41:05 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 01:41:05 +0100 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers Message-ID: <4E6177A1.4080709@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've just acquired a HP 7470A in a lot with some other gear, and it seems the rubber paper feed rollers have deteriorated somewhat. They've acquired a gummy consistency, and are covered in flat spots... Has anyone managed to find a source of replacement rollers, or a way to repair those installed in the plotter? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 2 19:44:33 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 01:44:33 +0100 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! References: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> <20110828203136.N49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E463DE1A10E45D583DF09A78DB60E95@dell8300> Message-ID: <029d01cc69d2$abdc9370$8efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> > > It lasts longer then something in RAM when the power goes out. > > Humans have not been storing this amount of information for very long, it is > new to us. I figure in 100 years we will have mastered the art of storing > everything in a way that will be the easiest to get lost permanently so the > digital paper pushers of that era can re patent everything and make more > money (while people try to figure out how to make a wheel and start fires > all over again). > Sorry, to jump in a few days late but with people pushing for using "cloud" services I believe we are pretty much already there (e.g. YouTube, Flicker etc.). Personally, I much prefer having originals in my possession and only having backups in online accounts. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Sep 2 20:00:50 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 02:00:50 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! Message-ID: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> I'm sure most of you are probably aware of my DiscFerret disc analyser project: http://www.discferret.com The Cliff Notes: it's an enhanced, ground-up-re-engineered Catweasel-type disc analyser, with a USB interface, more accurate data sampling, and ST-506 disc support (with an adapter board). All the design files and source code can be downloaded freely from the website above, and are licensed under OSI-Compliant open-source licenses. I'm doing another hardware production run in the next week or so. I have 25 blank PCBs ready to assemble, and parts arriving on Monday to assemble them. For extra bonus points, I managed to get a good deal on the power supplies -- these are now ?5 cheaper while stocks last! Prices are: - Fully assembled and tested unit, no cables or PSU: ?139 - Cable kit -- supports up to two drives, 3.5 or 5.25-inch, PC- or Shugart-style (34 pin edge connector or pin header). Power is supplied from the DiscFerret. Add ?10 - Power supply - add ?22.50 - Shipping -- fully tracked and insured! UK mainland -- ?7.50 Europe -- ?15 USA -- ?17.50 Unfortunately there's not a lot I can do about the international shipping charges... I'm looking into alternatives... To order -- email me at philpem at philpem.me.uk, and I'll send you an invoice for the total. Payment is via PayPal, or BACS / Faster Payments transfer (the latter for UK customers only). Thanks! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 2 20:54:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 21:54:22 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <029d01cc69d2$abdc9370$8efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> <20110828203136.N49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E463DE1A10E45D583DF09A78DB60E95@dell8300> <029d01cc69d2$abdc9370$8efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4E6188CE.8060807@neurotica.com> On 09/02/2011 08:44 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > Sorry, to jump in a few days late but with people pushing for using "cloud" > services I believe we are pretty much already there (e.g. YouTube, Flicker > etc.). Personally, I much prefer having originals in my possession and only > having backups in online accounts. I have to agree there. And who knows when these companies will suddenly say "oh, by the way, you'll now have to pay us money if you want continued access (for yourself OR the public) to your data!" Between people being short-sighted about stuff like this and using those services because they're either too scared or not knowledgeable enough to run their own stuff online, Windows boxes shitting the bed and needing reloading so frequently, and people not knowing (or caring) how to back up their data, instances of this type of loss will become more and more frequent. I don't deny its utility and awesomeness, but much of the time I do really dislike what the Internet has become. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 2 21:00:20 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 20:00:20 -0600 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E6188CE.8060807@neurotica.com> References: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> <20110828203136.N49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E463DE1A10E45D583DF09A78DB60E95@dell8300> <029d01cc69d2$abdc9370$8efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E6188CE.8060807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E618A34.8000303@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/2/2011 7:54 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I have to agree there. And who knows when these companies will suddenly > say "oh, by the way, you'll now have to pay us money if you want > continued access (for yourself OR the public) to your data!" > You mean like GeoCities where you pay or we delete your data. I say a good 10% hits from google still are from them on my web searches. Ben. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 2 21:10:57 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 19:10:57 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4E618CB1.3090709@bitsavers.org> On 9/2/11 6:00 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm sure most of you are probably aware of my DiscFerret disc analyser project: > are any hard disk adapters in the queue? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Sep 2 21:36:04 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 22:36:04 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E6188CE.8060807@neurotica.com> References: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> <20110828203136.N49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E463DE1A10E45D583DF09A78DB60E95@dell8300> <029d01cc69d2$abdc9370$8efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E6188CE.8060807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E619294.3050000@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/09/11 9:54 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/02/2011 08:44 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >> Sorry, to jump in a few days late but with people pushing for using >> "cloud" >> services I believe we are pretty much already there (e.g. YouTube, >> Flicker >> etc.). Personally, I much prefer having originals in my possession and >> only >> having backups in online accounts. > > I have to agree there. And who knows when these companies will > suddenly say "oh, by the way, you'll now have to pay us money if you > want continued access (for yourself OR the public) to your data!" > This risk arrived a long time ago even if you store your data on your own equipment, with "DeActivation" (WinXP, Adobe, etc). > Between people being short-sighted about stuff like this and using > those services because they're either too scared or not knowledgeable > enough to run their own stuff online, Windows boxes shitting the bed and > needing reloading so frequently, and people not knowing (or caring) how > to back up their data, instances of this type of loss will become more > and more frequent. Indeed. --Toby > > I don't deny its utility and awesomeness, but much of the time I do > really dislike what the Internet has become. > > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 2 23:20:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 00:20:08 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E618A34.8000303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> <20110828203136.N49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E463DE1A10E45D583DF09A78DB60E95@dell8300> <029d01cc69d2$abdc9370$8efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E6188CE.8060807@neurotica.com> <4E618A34.8000303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E61AAF8.1000404@neurotica.com> On 09/02/2011 10:00 PM, ben wrote: >> I have to agree there. And who knows when these companies will suddenly >> say "oh, by the way, you'll now have to pay us money if you want >> continued access (for yourself OR the public) to your data!" > > You mean like GeoCities where you pay or we delete your data. > I say a good 10% hits from google still are from them on my web searches. Unbelievable. :-( -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Sep 3 05:21:24 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 11:21:24 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E618CB1.3090709@bitsavers.org> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> <4E618CB1.3090709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E61FFA4.3040500@philpem.me.uk> On 03/09/11 03:10, Al Kossow wrote: > are any hard disk adapters in the queue? > The current batch of hard disc adapters are prototypes (built on Veroboard...!). I'm planning to spend this afternoon bringing the schematic into EAGLE and drawing up a PCB design. All being well I should be able to make a couple of those using my home PCB fab line. (I can't do PTH, but single-sided no-solder-mask is a snap!) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 08:01:32 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 14:01:32 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <007801cc696e$24aa4780$6dfed680$@ntlworld.com> References: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> <4E5D7583.4020409@dunnington.plus.com> <060501cc67be$e4fe25d0$aefa7170$@ntlworld.com> <4E5EAB04.3030308@dunnington.plus.com> <066a01cc6878$3d0bf5e0$b723e1a0$@ntlworld.com> <000301cc689a$4b02d1b0$e1087510$@ntlworld.com> <4E5FD279.9070200@dunnington.plus.com> <006c01cc6953$bc7f4080$357dc180$@ntlworld.com> <201109021016.p82AGU0Z011374@rickmurphy.net> <007801cc696e$24aa4780$6dfed680$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00bc01cc6a39$9c14c9f0$d43e5dd0$@ntlworld.com> I have made some progress with this problem and think I have identified a faulty chip on the M9058. Using my oscilloscope I verified that the control signals seemed OK so I started to look at the Read signals to see if data is reaching the RQDX3. Starting from the connector from the disk to the M9058 I could see a signal quite easily, but then at the outputs of the 74LS158 (pins 4 and 7) that all stops. This chip is used by all 4 disk channels, which explains why it did not matter which channel I used. I will source a replacement and see if that fixes it. Regards Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 3 13:28:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 19:28:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at Sep 2, 11 03:40:57 pm Message-ID: > > wonder how big a peac of tape u would need to store a 1meg jpeg in octal > would be let along a raw file lol Why waste tape by storing it in octal? That uses 3 chracters on the tape for a byte. If you use 8-level paper tape you could punch the data in binary, one tape character to a byte. If you insist on only using printable chracters, I guess you could use base 64 encoding, which would use 4 tape charaters for every 3 bytes of the original data But anyway... Standard paper tape is 10 charactes per inch, so 120 charactes/foot. The normal reels of paper tape are, iIRC, 1000 feet, so about 117k (real k :-)) per reel. That mans you 1M file is going to take gettug on for 9 reels for binary encoding, around 26.25 reels for octal, and 11.65 reels for base64. Not totally ridiculous. On the other hand, a 1M jpeg is a pretty small or low-resolution image. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 3 13:33:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 19:33:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E616EB0.4090708@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Sep 2, 11 08:02:56 pm Message-ID: > A decent 35mm colour transparency carries about 35 megabytes of 8 bit > RGB or CMYK (10-15 megapixels, roughly). Which, if I've worked it out properly, is nearly 306 full reels of paper tape. And for medium/large format film, even more... Thanks, but I'll stick to film :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 3 13:37:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 19:37:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <4E6177A1.4080709@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 3, 11 01:41:05 am Message-ID: > > Hi guys, > > I've just acquired a HP 7470A in a lot with some other gear, and it Nice find!. Which version is it? There are 3, HPIB, RS232 and HPIL (the last being by far the rarest). Alas you can't easily convert one to another, there's one PCB inside, and it differs between the versions. > seems the rubber paper feed rollers have deteriorated somewhat. They've > acquired a gummy consistency, and are covered in flat spots... I assume these are the little rollers on the clamp arms above the plotter deck. You are going to ahve fun... I've just looked at one of mine, and the rollers are tappered (they are designed to keep the paper taut as it moves). I don;t think a normal cylindrical roller is going to work. Whether a thin 'rubber' coating (for example heatshrink sleeving) on a tapered hub would work, I don't know. I think I'd try that first, because it's not hard to make. Turning a tappered rubber roller is possible, but rubber is not easy to machine. It helps to cool it, but not too far (I am told that solid CO_2 is about the right tempeature). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 3 13:42:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 19:42:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <00bc01cc6a39$9c14c9f0$d43e5dd0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 3, 11 02:01:32 pm Message-ID: > > I have made some progress with this problem and think I have identified a > faulty chip on the M9058. > > Using my oscilloscope I verified that the control signals seemed OK so I > started to look at the Read signals to see if data is reaching the RQDX3. > Starting from the connector from the disk to the M9058 I could see a signal > quite easily, but then at the outputs of the 74LS158 (pins 4 and 7) that all > stops. This chip is used by all 4 disk channels, which explains why it did > not matter which channel I used. It may be the chip, but what are the control inputs doing? Pin 15 is a global enable to that chip, if it's high, the chip is disabled, and all ouptus are forced high (IIRC). Often this is not used, and pin 15 is tied to ground, but it's best to check. Pin 1 selects between the 1 possible inputs for each multiplexer section. Is this in the right state to pass the data through? -tony From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Sep 3 14:44:40 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 21:44:40 +0200 Subject: Early 3D rendition Message-ID: <4E6283A8.2040808@update.uu.se> Hi I was sent this link with a film of an early 3D computer rendered animation by Ed Catmull and Fred Parke: http://nerdplusart.com/first-3d-rendered-film-from-1972-and-my-visit-to-pixar I'd love to know more technical details and also if it really is the first 3D film. Henri Gouraud published his techniques in 1971, this must be a very early application at least. Kind Regards, Pontus. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 3 16:34:47 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 22:34:47 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: References: <00bc01cc6a39$9c14c9f0$d43e5dd0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 3, 11 02:01:32 pm Message-ID: <00c401cc6a81$4f1feec0$ed5fcc40$@ntlworld.com> > It may be the chip, but what are the control inputs doing? Pin 15 is a global > enable to that chip, if it's high, the chip is disabled, and all ouptus are forced > high (IIRC). Often this is not used, and pin 15 is tied to ground, but it's best to > check. > > Pin 1 selects between the 1 possible inputs for each multiplexer section. > Is this in the right state to pass the data through? Just checked the printset, that shows pin 15 tied to ground. Good job really because I have already ordered the part! Thanks for telling me though, I will have to be more careful next time. Regards Rob From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 16:51:09 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 16:51:09 -0500 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E616EB0.4090708@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: speaking of obscure what on either would this program be? http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/6109885397/in/photostream/lightbox/ From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Sat Sep 3 18:14:42 2011 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 19:14:42 -0400 Subject: WTB/Trade Tadpole/Sparc parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F01D882-7D01-4C6F-98CA-7C058C50E3D6@mind-to-mind.com> I'm looking to buy or trade the following parts: - Tadpole 3000XT drive sled and drive - Sun Compact 1 Keyboard (320-1194) and mouse I have a very good selection of NeXT parts for trade. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Sep 3 18:19:10 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 19:19:10 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E62B5EE.4080306@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/09/11 2:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> A decent 35mm colour transparency carries about 35 megabytes of 8 bit >> RGB or CMYK (10-15 megapixels, roughly). > > Which, if I've worked it out properly, is nearly 306 full reels of paper > tape. And for medium/large format film, even more... > > Thanks, but I'll stick to film :-) It works both ways. If you needed to archive 60,000 35mm transparencies, you might prefer a 2TB hard disk drive to the alternative. --Toby > > -tony > From legalize at xmission.com Sat Sep 3 18:34:33 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 17:34:33 -0600 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E616EB0.4090708@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: In article , Adrian Stoness writes: > speaking of obscure what on either would this program be? > http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/6109885397/in/photostream/lightbox/ Wouldn't you have better luck getting the paper tape read in so you can extract strings from it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 18:42:13 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 18:42:13 -0500 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E616EB0.4090708@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: strings? On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article K8AQ0ey84OEhp06NEN5sxGwApCKvJxhbyf-tLf3kGA at mail.gmail.com>, > Adrian Stoness writes: > > > speaking of obscure what on either would this program be? > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/6109885397/in/photostream/lightbox/ > > Wouldn't you have better luck getting the paper tape read in so you > can extract strings from it? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 3 18:44:39 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 00:44:39 +0100 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! References: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> <20110828203136.N49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E463DE1A10E45D583DF09A78DB60E95@dell8300> <029d01cc69d2$abdc9370$8efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E6188CE.8060807@neurotica.com> <4E618A34.8000303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <01df01cc6a94$84c70000$39fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ben" To: Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 3:00 AM Subject: Re: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! > On 9/2/2011 7:54 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > I have to agree there. And who knows when these companies will suddenly > > say "oh, by the way, you'll now have to pay us money if you want > > continued access (for yourself OR the public) to your data!" > > > > You mean like GeoCities where you pay or we delete your data. > I say a good 10% hits from google still are from them on my web searches. > Ben. Is that an example or something that actually happened? I say that, because my old geocities site is still up - though I can't update it at all without transferring to their new "service". Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Sep 3 19:04:49 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 20:04:49 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E616EB0.4090708@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E62C0A1.6020302@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/09/11 7:42 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > strings? > Sequences of printable characters. Also the name of a related utility on Unix: e.g. $ strings `which date` |tail december sunday monday tuesday wednesday thursday friday saturday malloc 0123456789 > On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Richard wrote: > >> >> In article > K8AQ0ey84OEhp06NEN5sxGwApCKvJxhbyf-tLf3kGA at mail.gmail.com>, >> Adrian Stoness writes: >> >>> speaking of obscure what on either would this program be? >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/6109885397/in/photostream/lightbox/ >> >> Wouldn't you have better luck getting the paper tape read in so you >> can extract strings from it? >> -- >> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download >> >> >> Legalize Adulthood! >> > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 3 20:08:53 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 19:08:53 -0600 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <01df01cc6a94$84c70000$39fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> <20110828203136.N49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E463DE1A10E45D583DF09A78DB60E95@dell8300> <029d01cc69d2$abdc9370$8efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E6188CE.8060807@neurotica.com> <4E618A34.8000303@jetnet.ab.ca> <01df01cc6a94$84c70000$39fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4E62CFA5.7080908@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/3/2011 5:44 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > Is that an example or something that actually happened? I say that, because > my old geocities site is still up - though I can't update it at all without > transferring to their new "service". > As a surfer, I have to assume they are deleted since they are not on line. Most of geocities I hit, are the one page, "I built this tube *** amp" or "I found this $5 speaker and here it is after refinishing". > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > Also I don't use the internet mirrors because often you don't have pdf's or images with the archive. Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 3 20:15:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 21:15:30 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E62CFA5.7080908@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> <20110828203136.N49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E463DE1A10E45D583DF09A78DB60E95@dell8300> <029d01cc69d2$abdc9370$8efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E6188CE.8060807@neurotica.com> <4E618A34.8000303@jetnet.ab.ca> <01df01cc6a94$84c70000$39fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E62CFA5.7080908@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E62D132.4070108@neurotica.com> On 09/03/2011 09:08 PM, ben wrote: > Also I don't use the internet mirrors because often you don't have > pdf's or images with the archive. "The internet mirrors"? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 3 20:25:38 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 21:25:38 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E616EB0.4090708@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E62D392.5030401@neurotica.com> On 09/03/2011 05:51 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > speaking of obscure what on either would this program be? > http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/6109885397/in/photostream/lightbox/ That's a very good question. You should get it read in (when possible) and poke at it a bit. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Sep 3 20:27:15 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 21:27:15 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E62D132.4070108@neurotica.com> References: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> <20110828203136.N49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E463DE1A10E45D583DF09A78DB60E95@dell8300> <029d01cc69d2$abdc9370$8efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E6188CE.8060807@neurotica.com> <4E618A34.8000303@jetnet.ab.ca> <01df01cc6a94$84c70000$39fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E62CFA5.7080908@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E62D132.4070108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E62D3F3.6080303@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/09/11 9:15 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/03/2011 09:08 PM, ben wrote: >> Also I don't use the internet mirrors because often you don't have >> pdf's or images with the archive. > > "The internet mirrors"? > e.g. http://archive.org/ > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 3 20:34:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 21:34:30 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E62D3F3.6080303@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> <20110828203136.N49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E463DE1A10E45D583DF09A78DB60E95@dell8300> <029d01cc69d2$abdc9370$8efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E6188CE.8060807@neurotica.com> <4E618A34.8000303@jetnet.ab.ca> <01df01cc6a94$84c70000$39fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E62CFA5.7080908@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E62D132.4070108@neurotica.com> <4E62D3F3.6080303@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E62D5A6.4000007@neurotica.com> On 09/03/2011 09:27 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Also I don't use the internet mirrors because often you don't have >>> pdf's or images with the archive. >> >> "The internet mirrors"? >> > > e.g. http://archive.org/ Ah. The Wayback Machine (in particular) usually does have images and linked files. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 4 03:52:47 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 09:52:47 +0100 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E633C5F.30704@philpem.me.uk> On 03/09/11 19:37, Tony Duell wrote: >> I've just acquired a HP 7470A in a lot with some other gear, and it > > Nice find!. Which version is it? There are 3, HPIB, RS232 and HPIL (the > last being by far the rarest). Alas you can't easily convert one to > another, there's one PCB inside, and it differs between the versions. It's HP-IB. Unfortunately one of the thumbscrews is missing from the GPIB connector. > I assume these are the little rollers on the clamp arms above the plotter > deck. Yep. > Whether a thin 'rubber' coating (for example heatshrink sleeving) on a > tapered hub would work, I don't know. I think I'd try that first, because > it's not hard to make. How are the rollers removed and reinstalled? I can't see any obvious way to remove them without damaging the clamp arms. > Turning a tappered rubber roller is possible, but rubber is not easy to > machine. It helps to cool it, but not too far (I am told that solid CO_2 > is about the right tempeature). Who said anything about machining the roller? :) I just bought a pack of "Sugru" (a type of putty based on silicone) which may well work for this. The trick is going to be making some form of rig to make a tapered rubber roller of the correct size... Thanks, -- Phil. From vintagecoder at aol.com Sun Sep 4 04:16:51 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 09:16:51 +0000 Subject: Old printer tricks, HP LaserJet 6P Message-ID: <201109040916.p849GtiZ016778@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> I received an old HP LaserJet 6P. According to the doc it has an IEEE-1284 interface (B and C ports). The PCs I have don't have parallel ports. Will a USB to parallel converter cable "just work" or how should I hook this up to a Windows XP box? Also, any comments on this unit? I remember seeing some threads with people praising/damnning various HP models. Thanks. From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Sun Sep 4 05:43:06 2011 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 06:43:06 -0400 Subject: Old printer tricks, HP LaserJet 6P In-Reply-To: <201109040916.p849GtiZ016778@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> References: <201109040916.p849GtiZ016778@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <338904$8ggrj4@fipsb03.cogeco.net> At 05:16 AM 04/09/2011, you wrote: >I received an old HP LaserJet 6P. According to the doc it has an IEEE-1284 >interface (B and C ports). The PCs I have don't have parallel ports. Will a >USB to parallel converter cable "just work" or how should I hook this up to >a Windows XP box? Also, any comments on this unit? I remember seeing >some threads with people praising/damnning various HP models. Thanks. My HP Laserjet 4050 works fine with a USB to Parallel cable. Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From vintagecoder at aol.com Sun Sep 4 05:46:23 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 10:46:23 +0000 Subject: Old printer tricks, HP LaserJet 6P Message-ID: <118005053-1315133178-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1425449990-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> Thanks! ------Original Message------ From: Charles E. Fox Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Old printer tricks, HP LaserJet 6P Sent: 4 Sep 2011 10:43 At 05:16 AM 04/09/2011, you wrote: >I received an old HP LaserJet 6P. According to the doc it has an IEEE-1284 >interface (B and C ports). The PCs I have don't have parallel ports. Will a >USB to parallel converter cable "just work" or how should I hook this up to >a Windows XP box? Also, any comments on this unit? I remember seeing >some threads with people praising/damnning various HP models. Thanks. My HP Laserjet 4050 works fine with a USB to Parallel cable. Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Sep 4 06:49:24 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 13:49:24 +0200 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <4E633C5F.30704@philpem.me.uk> References: <4E633C5F.30704@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <000901cc6af8$b51c82c0$1f558840$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Philip Pemberton > Verzonden: zondag 4 september 2011 10:53 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers > > On 03/09/11 19:37, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I've just acquired a HP 7470A in a lot with some other gear, and it > > > > Nice find!. Which version is it? There are 3, HPIB, RS232 and HPIL > > (the last being by far the rarest). Alas you can't easily convert one > > to another, there's one PCB inside, and it differs between the versions. > > It's HP-IB. Unfortunately one of the thumbscrews is missing from the GPIB > connector. > > > I assume these are the little rollers on the clamp arms above the > > plotter deck. > > Yep. > > > Whether a thin 'rubber' coating (for example heatshrink sleeving) on a > > tapered hub would work, I don't know. I think I'd try that first, > > because it's not hard to make. > > How are the rollers removed and reinstalled? I can't see any obvious way to > remove them without damaging the clamp arms. > > > Turning a tappered rubber roller is possible, but rubber is not easy > > to machine. It helps to cool it, but not too far (I am told that solid > > CO_2 is about the right tempeature). > > Who said anything about machining the roller? :) > > I just bought a pack of "Sugru" (a type of putty based on silicone) which may well > work for this. The trick is going to be making some form of rig to make a > tapered rubber roller of the correct size... > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. Philip, This HP Journal has a few articles about the development and working of the HP 7470 electronics and mechanics. http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1982-12.pdf -Rik From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 4 09:10:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:10:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <00c401cc6a81$4f1feec0$ed5fcc40$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 3, 11 10:34:47 pm Message-ID: > > > It may be the chip, but what are the control inputs doing? Pin 15 is a > global > > enable to that chip, if it's high, the chip is disabled, and all ouptus > are forced > > high (IIRC). Often this is not used, and pin 15 is tied to ground, but > it's best to > > check. > > > > Pin 1 selects between the 1 possible inputs for each multiplexer section. > > Is this in the right state to pass the data through? > > > Just checked the printset, that shows pin 15 tied to ground. Good job really What about pin 1? I've not looked at the printset, so I don't know how the '158 is used here, but pin 1 is the select input. If it's low, pin 4 is the inverse of pin 2 (and pin 3 is ignored), if it's high, pin 4 is th einverse of pin 3 (and pin 2 is ignored). > because I have already ordered the part! Thanks for telling me though, I > will have to be more careful next time. The expression 'GIGO' applies to logic gates (and other devices) as much as to complete computers :-). If the input conditons aren't right, the output won't be right either, even if the chip is working perfectly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 4 09:15:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:15:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E62B5EE.4080306@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Sep 3, 11 07:19:10 pm Message-ID: > > On 03/09/11 2:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> A decent 35mm colour transparency carries about 35 megabytes of 8 bit > >> RGB or CMYK (10-15 megapixels, roughly). > > > > Which, if I've worked it out properly, is nearly 306 full reels of paper > > tape. And for medium/large format film, even more... > > > > Thanks, but I'll stick to film :-) > > It works both ways. If you needed to archive 60,000 35mm transparencies, > you might prefer a 2TB hard disk drive to the alternative. 60000 trasnparencies is jut over 2TB (assuming 35MB per image -- note that I use the 'real' defiintions of MB, GB, TB, etc going up in multiples of 1024). But anyway... 60000 trasparenices would be 300 boxes (assuming 500 to a box, which is quite reasoable). That's not that much to store. But with the sort of storage I use, 2TB ia nearly 75000 RK07 packs (!). I suspec, acutally, you might get an image on a pack (28MB packs) with sensible compression or reduction in resolution. In any case, an RK07 pack is a lot larger than a 35mm slide. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 4 09:18:08 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:18:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E62C0A1.6020302@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Sep 3, 11 08:04:49 pm Message-ID: > Sequences of printable characters. Also the name of a related utility on > Unix: And a very useful program it is too. I find it's always worth attacking a ROM image with strings(1) to see if I can find a command table or similar. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 4 09:30:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:30:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <4E633C5F.30704@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 4, 11 09:52:47 am Message-ID: > > On 03/09/11 19:37, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I've just acquired a HP 7470A in a lot with some other gear, and it > > > > Nice find!. Which version is it? There are 3, HPIB, RS232 and HPIL (the > > last being by far the rarest). Alas you can't easily convert one to > > another, there's one PCB inside, and it differs between the versions. > > It's HP-IB. Unfortunately one of the thumbscrews is missing from the > GPIB connector. Do you mean the screw-down jackposts on the chassis-mounted connector? Those are in therory still avaialbe form Agilent (they were used on many instruments), but I've yet to find a way of getting them in the UK, If you want to make a replaceemnt, the internal female thread is M3.5, the male thread to go into the PCB bush is 6-32 UNC, and the hexagon is 9/32" across flats. Take the other measuremtns from the one you have. Seriously, I've given up trying to buy them in the UK, I just make them when I need them. > How are the rollers removed and reinstalled? I can't see any obvious way > to remove them without damaging the clamp arms. In my 7470, there appear to be E-circlips on the ends of the clamp arm pins that hold these rollers. I assume that removing said circlips allows the rollers to come off. I can take mine apart if you like. It appears these rollers have as rigid hub with a rubber tyre. I don't know if the hob is tapered or not. I think there's an official service manaul for this plotter (I don't know which interface version(s) it covers) on the Australian HP museum site. That probably covers taking the mechanical side apart (which is the same in all versions). > > Turning a tappered rubber roller is possible, but rubber is not easy to > > machine. It helps to cool it, but not too far (I am told that solid CO_2 > > is about the right tempeature). > > Who said anything about machining the roller? :) A lathe is a traditional way of making something with a circular cross-section :-) > > I just bought a pack of "Sugru" (a type of putty based on silicone) > which may well work for this. The trick is going to be making some form > of rig to make a tapered rubber roller of the correct size... I'd thought about using something like Devcon 90 for this, but it's darn expensive, and the problem of making the mould still applies. For something this size, it's a lot easier to make an external taper than an internal one... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 4 11:18:07 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 09:18:07 -0700 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <4E633C5F.30704@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4E633C5F.30704@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4E63424F.13674.1C1610@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2011 at 9:52, Philip Pemberton wrote: > It's HP-IB. Unfortunately one of the thumbscrews is missing from the > GPIB connector. Is the 7470A anything like the 7440A in that different interfaces have different firmware capabilities? My recollection for the 7440A is that the RS232 and Centronics-interface versions have extra drawing primitives not present in the HPIB version. The 7440A has a warm spot in my heart. Back around 1985-6, I was working on a business plan and needed to run a series of charts. A friend volunteered his 7440A that he'd picked up at CDC's closing their retail business store. I had a copy of SuperCalc, which had 7440A support, but only the parallel and serial interface drivers. I remembered that Victor double-dutied the parallel port on the 9000 as both printer and HPIB interfaces, so I thought I'd make the IBM PC XT do likewise. It was a simple matter to convert a generic parallel card to bi-directional operation and I figured I could get away with its totem-pole drivers to drive a single device. So I wrote a TSR to hook BIOS interrupt 17H and translate the commands destined for a parallel plotter to the HPIB one. It worked like a charm and I was churning out color charts in no time at all. Fortunately, SuperCalc used only the basic drawing primitives and none of the extra stuff that wasn't present on the HPIB model. I think my code for this is still in SIMTEL --Chuck. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Sep 4 11:14:52 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 13:14:52 -0300 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? References: Message-ID: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> Sirs, I got a Data I/O 2900 programmer with the (44? 48? It hasn't arrived here yet) programming bed. How good is this programmer, compared to newer toys like the Vellom VP280? It seems to program older devices that the VP280 doesn't program. Also, where can I find the PLCC/SOIC/etc programming beds for it? For a cheap price, of course :o) Thanks Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 4 11:44:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 17:44:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <4E63424F.13674.1C1610@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 4, 11 09:18:07 am Message-ID: > > On 4 Sep 2011 at 9:52, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > It's HP-IB. Unfortunately one of the thumbscrews is missing from the > > GPIB connector. > > Is the 7470A anything like the 7440A in that different interfaces > have different firmware capabilities? My recollection for the > 7440A is that the RS232 and Centronics-interface versions have extra > drawing primitives not present in the HPIB version. I've never seen a 7440 (aak Colorpro) that's not the HPIB model, alas. I do remeber that this plotter has an optional expansion module contain ROM (and RAM?) that plugs into the underside of the unit -- fortunatly mine has it. I beelive some ploters -- and I think the HP7470 is among them -- do have more commands in one interface version than in another. I guess it comes down to what they couild fit in the ROM ;-) > > The 7440A has a warm spot in my heart. Back around 1985-6, I was > working on a business plan and needed to run a series of charts. A > friend volunteered his 7440A that he'd picked up at CDC's closing Are you sure? I've jsut looked at the documentation for the program you mention below (and yes, it is the one, it has your name in the documentation), and you clearly state there that the plotter you borrowed was 7470. The 7470 is a 2-pen thing , the pens hre held one at each side of the carriage rail and the carriage moves 'off the side of the paper' to pick a pen up. The 7440 has a 6 pen carousel, driven by paper motor (IIRC) -- when the carrage moves off the side it mechanically engagues a clutch to enable the carousel drive. > their retail business store. I had a copy of SuperCalc, which had > 7440A support, but only the parallel and serial interface drivers. I've never seen an HP ploter witha Centronics interface, adn I am suprised they exist. HP plotters tended to need a bidirectiona interface, you could get information back from them like the currnet plotter limits, pen postion, etc. You could use most HP plotters a a crude digitiser -- fita sight in place of the pen, then move that aroudn with the manual control buttons and hen it was ovre a feautre on the original (put where the plotter paper would noramlly be), get the host computer to read the coordiantes from the plotter. > > I remembered that Victor double-dutied the parallel port on the 9000 > as both printer and HPIB interfaces, so I thought I'd make the IBM PC The Victor 9000/Sirius did use GPIB buffers (75160 and 75161 IIRC) to drive the 'printer' port though.. > XT do likewise. It was a simple matter to convert a generic parallel > card to bi-directional operation and I figured I could get away with > its totem-pole drivers to drive a single device. > > So I wrote a TSR to hook BIOS interrupt 17H and translate the > commands destined for a parallel plotter to the HPIB one. > > It worked like a charm and I was churning out color charts in no time > at all. Fortunately, SuperCalc used only the basic drawing > primitives and none of the extra stuff that wasn't present on the > HPIB model. > > I think my code for this is still in SIMTEL If not, I have it here. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 4 12:15:51 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 18:15:51 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: References: <00c401cc6a81$4f1feec0$ed5fcc40$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 3, 11 10:34:47 pm Message-ID: <010001cc6b26$4dd9f240$e98dd6c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 04 September 2011 15:11 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems > > > > > > It may be the chip, but what are the control inputs doing? Pin 15 is > > > a > > global > > > enable to that chip, if it's high, the chip is disabled, and all > > > ouptus > > are forced > > > high (IIRC). Often this is not used, and pin 15 is tied to ground, > > > but > > it's best to > > > check. > > > > > > Pin 1 selects between the 1 possible inputs for each multiplexer section. > > > Is this in the right state to pass the data through? > > > > > > Just checked the printset, that shows pin 15 tied to ground. Good job > > really > > What about pin 1? I've not looked at the printset, so I don't know how the > '158 is used here, but pin 1 is the select input. If it's low, pin 4 is the inverse of > pin 2 (and pin 3 is ignored), if it's high, pin 4 is th einverse of pin 3 (and pin 2 is > ignored). > > > because I have already ordered the part! Thanks for telling me though, > > I will have to be more careful next time. > > The expression 'GIGO' applies to logic gates (and other devices) as much as to > complete computers :-). If the input conditons aren't right, the output won't > be right either, even if the chip is working perfectly. Oops, didn't check that properly! I really should have checked the full function of the chip. Pin 1 of the 158 is connected to a signal that is definitely wrong in that it is Low when it should be High. Tracking this back it is looking like a failure in a DEC 8837 chip which is listed as a "RECEIVER, BUS, HEX, UN". This looks like it inverts signals from the main connector. One of the outputs of this chip is correctly inverted, the other output is not correctly inverted, and this is the cause of the input to the 158 being wrong. So it looks like a partial failure of the chip. Sourcing a replacement for this chip is probably not going to be easy, unless there is a generic equivalent, anyone know of an equivalent or have a spare DEC 8837? Regards Rob From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Sep 4 12:16:07 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 10:16:07 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> References: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> Message-ID: <4E63B257.4060209@brouhaha.com> > I got a Data I/O 2900 programmer with the (44? 48? It hasn't arrived here yet) > programming bed. How good is this programmer, compared to newer toys like the Vellom > VP280? It seems to program older devices that the VP280 doesn't program. The 2900/3900/3980 are cost-reduced versions of the Unisite, which was one of the best universal programmers. The main drawbacks of these are: 1) The interface to a host computer is very slow a) transferring files using the floppy drive is slow, partially due to sector interleave issue b) serial interface is slow (9600bps) unless you use their proprietary "Hiterm" Windows software (115,200 bps). There is no way to use 115,200 bps with a normal terminal or terminal emulator, because Hiterm uses a proprietary protocol. c) fastest transfer is with parallel cable ("Xpi"), might not be available on 2900? requires their proprietary Hiterm Windows software. the programmer end hardware of the parallel interface has been reverse-engineered, so you might be able to build it yourself. 3) They are no longer supported, so they won't program parts introduced in the last few years I wouldn't use these for programming recent parts, but they're great for programming older parts. I'm not sure how device support on the 29xx/39xx compares to Unisite, but the only old programmable devices I've found that the Unisite doesn't support are the first generation EPROMs (1702, 1702a, 5203, 5204), due to these needed rather extreme programming voltages (e.g., -40V to -50V) on many pins (not just one program pulse pin). The Unisite does support most bipolar PROMs, while most modern programmers do not. > Also, where can I find the PLCC/SOIC/etc programming beds for it? > For a cheap price, of course :o) Data I/O and "cheap price" are rarely mentioned together. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 4 12:19:14 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 10:19:14 -0700 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: References: <4E63424F.13674.1C1610@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 4, 11 09:18:07 am, Message-ID: <4E6350A2.30417.5409FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2011 at 17:44, Tony Duell wrote: It could have been the 7470A--it was too long ago to recall which it was. I just borrowed the plotter and recall the mylar foil-packaged pens--and I had a good-sized box of them (apparently the store tossed all the pens they had in with the plotter). That may be what triggered the 7440 memory. > I've never seen an HP ploter witha Centronics interface, adn I am > suprised they exist. IIRC, the documentation definitely called a Centronics interface model out. For all I know, I hooked BIOS interrupt 14H. Heck, it was less than a week's adventure more than 20 years ago. > If not, I have it here. No point to having it now--I have a GPIB interface card. Just another misadventure in a long line of misadventures. A couple of years laterr, I got a call from Greg Mansfield, who was working for Cray at the time. He prompted me to reprise my code and turn it into a library of subroutines, which I did--and added considerable functionality. I don't know if that was ever published, though I gave my blessing to do so. It could be that Greg had the 7440A. Neural rot, dammit. Just like the IBM product manager in last month's IEEE Computer who refers to the "Zilog 6502". --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Sep 4 12:39:23 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 10:39:23 -0700 Subject: "Zilog 6502" in _IEEE Computer_ In-Reply-To: <4E6350A2.30417.5409FA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E63424F.13674.1C1610@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 4, 11 09:18:07 am, <4E6350A2.30417.5409FA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E63B7CB.2050705@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > Neural rot, dammit. Just like the IBM product manager in last > month's IEEE Computer who refers to the "Zilog 6502". I guess that's the next (il)logical step from the "Mostek 6502". Next up: the "Intel 6502". Sigh. I've seen references on the Internet and in books to both the "Zilog 8080" and the "Intel Z80". From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Sep 4 12:36:01 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 14:36:01 -0300 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? References: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> <4E63B257.4060209@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1F396EF76C7849568CF73FE8A4008D36@portajara> > The 2900/3900/3980 are cost-reduced versions of the Unisite, which was one > of the best universal programmers. The main drawbacks of these are: And thinking that I had one, and sold for a cheap...some 15 years ago :( > b) serial interface is slow (9600bps) unless you use their > proprietary "Hiterm" Windows > software (115,200 bps). There is no way to use 115,200 bps Time to find it :) > 3) They are no longer supported, so they won't program parts introduced > in the last few years I have a nice, new and USB-driven programmer (Vellon VP280) which programs the newer chips. But sometimes I have troubles with older (BPROM and PAL/GAL) chips. The 2900 will fit the bill. > Data I/O and "cheap price" are rarely mentioned together. :oO I could never imagine that. Why are they so expensive? I found just ONE (ah, a pair, ok) 2900 on ebay for - gasp - $1100 EACH. What does it has to be so expensive? :oO From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 4 13:02:39 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 11:02:39 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <4E63B257.4060209@brouhaha.com> References: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> <4E63B257.4060209@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E63BD3F.8050804@bitsavers.org> On 9/4/11 10:16 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Also, where can I find the PLCC/SOIC/etc programming beds for it? > > For a cheap price, of course :o) > > Data I/O and "cheap price" are rarely mentioned together. > I also believe they are no longer making the conductive pads for the universal PLCC sites, and they do go bad frequently. There is a decent overview here: http://reviews.ebay.com/Data-I-O-Device-Programmers-A-Condensed-Reference_W0QQugidZ10000000001698682 From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Sep 4 13:23:49 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 11:23:49 -0700 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <4E6350A2.30417.5409FA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E63424F.13674.1C1610@cclist.sydex.com> <4E6350A2.30417.5409FA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: The HP 7470A Interfacing and Programming Manual 07470-90001 says that the AA Arc Absolute, AR Arc Relative, and CI Circle instructions are available only with Option 001 RS-232-C plotters that have the serial prefix number 2308A or higher. The UC User Defined Character instruction is not available with Option 003 HP-IL interface plotters. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 4 13:43:46 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:43:46 +0100 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E63C6E2.4010101@philpem.me.uk> On 04/09/11 15:30, Tony Duell wrote: > Do you mean the screw-down jackposts on the chassis-mounted connector? Yes. One of them is present and screws in properly, the other appears to have a male thread which is too small -- it just spins in the hole. > In my 7470, there appear to be E-circlips on the ends of the clamp arm > pins that hold these rollers. I assume that removing said circlips allows > the rollers to come off. I can take mine apart if you like. Ah -- there they are! Spotted them once I gave the roller tips a good clean. > It appears these rollers have as rigid hub with a rubber tyre. I don't > know if the hob is tapered or not. It's a polyurethane tyre; the hub is 6/10 nylon with eight teeth around its radius. >> Who said anything about machining the roller? :) > > A lathe is a traditional way of making something with a circular > cross-section :-) Well the plan was to use a few plastic or metal shims, a piece of metal rod and the glass workbench to make the roller. That damned taper basically writes that plan off :-/ And unfortunately I don't have any dry ice (solid CO2). Grrrr. > I'd thought about using something like Devcon 90 for this, but it's darn > expensive, and the problem of making the mould still applies. For > something this size, it's a lot easier to make an external taper than an > internal one... Too true... Or another option would be to make a metal version of the required part, cast it to make a mould, then use said mould to cast a new part out of whatever material you like. Far more effort than it's worth though, IMHO. Easier to just make the damn thing.... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jonas at otter.se Thu Sep 1 14:25:36 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 21:25:36 +0200 Subject: Train shipping ( was Re: VT fixums ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5FDC30.4080303@otter.se> On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:36:58 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I havre no idea waht the official restrictuions are, but I've carried the > following on British trains (on serparate occasions) : > > An IBM PC/AT (got the comment from a fellow traveller 'That's some > laptop' ;-)) > > A DEC RS02 + 2 large bags of UNibus boards and printsets > > A complete GT40 > > An AR88 (RCA communcations receiver) You *carried* an AR88 on a train??? They weigh, what, 45 kgs? You must work out a lot... I used to have a BC-312M. I really regret having got rid of it. That was a nice piece of equipment.Not quite as heavy as the AR88 but quite heavy enough to break your foot if you dropped it on one of them. The foot would be severely damaged but not the BC-312M... /Jonas From nathan at nathanpralle.com Fri Sep 2 14:17:27 2011 From: nathan at nathanpralle.com (Nathan Pralle) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 14:17:27 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Digging Message-ID: <4E612BC7.6000909@nathanpralle.com> Finally pulled out the TRS-80 Model II tonight with the intention of actually working on it for once (shocker!) and trying to get it operational. It powers up, drive spins, screen comes on, lights glow, etc. Insert any one of about 20 8" floppies that I have that are specifically for the Model Ii and..... Nothing. Well. BOOT ERROR RS, which is translated as, "Disk not in RadioShack format." I'd believe it for one or two, but all of them? It seems unlikely, although I could blame bit-rot perhaps. I'm hoping it has something to do with the hardware instead. Popping it open, the unit powers on and the drive head is dropped to the spinning disk, then lifted, then dropped, then lifted, and the error occurs. I cannot see if the head is close enough to the disk or not (and I have *no* idea of the tolerances anyway) and am not sure how I'd adjust it -- or drive speed, etc. if that's an issue. So, anyone got ideas? There *is* a remote possibility that all the disks I got were wiped either by the previous owner or in some sort of magnetic disaster, but they're well-labeled and came from a working haul, so I have to imagine that they're still good. Or at least, I'm hoping they are. (The bits are damned near visible on these things, after all.) Your ideas and good guesses welcome and very much appreciated. Nathan -- *Nathan E. Pralle* Computer Geek www.nathanpralle.com www.philosyphia.com www.twitter.com/NPralle From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 3 13:34:15 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 11:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E61FFA4.3040500@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1315074855.28195.YahooMailClassic@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> may I ask... I've never used a Catweasel or any other disk archiving h/w. Only Teledisk, Imagedisk, etc. What I have learned is that w/some disks, after the first "read", which could simply be a directory scan, the disk is summarily unreadable. In such an instance (or any other weird case), what benefit would said h/w provide? If the magnetism is all used up, what hope is there of ever recovering the data? Of course only a fool would do anything except pop the disk in and immediately sick ID, TD, ?... on it, that's what I've learned to do anyway. --- On Sat, 9/3/11, Philip Pemberton wrote: > From: Philip Pemberton > Subject: Re: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 6:21 AM > On 03/09/11 03:10, Al Kossow wrote: > > are any hard disk adapters in the queue? > > > > The current batch of hard disc adapters are prototypes > (built on Veroboard...!). I'm planning to spend this > afternoon bringing the schematic into EAGLE and drawing up a > PCB design. All being well I should be able to make a couple > of those using my home PCB fab line. > > (I can't do PTH, but single-sided no-solder-mask is a > snap!) > > -- Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From spedraja at gmail.com Sun Sep 4 08:33:58 2011 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 15:33:58 +0200 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <000901cc6af8$b51c82c0$1f558840$@xs4all.nl> References: <4E633C5F.30704@philpem.me.uk> <000901cc6af8$b51c82c0$1f558840$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Just curious. Can I use one HP7475A HP-IB with one Oscilloscope which claims compatibility with the HP7470 (GP-IB) ? Regards Sergio 2011/9/4, Rik Bos : > > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> Namens Philip Pemberton >> Verzonden: zondag 4 september 2011 10:53 >> Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Onderwerp: Re: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers >> >> On 03/09/11 19:37, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I've just acquired a HP 7470A in a lot with some other gear, and it >> > >> > Nice find!. Which version is it? There are 3, HPIB, RS232 and HPIL >> > (the last being by far the rarest). Alas you can't easily convert one >> > to another, there's one PCB inside, and it differs between the >> > versions. >> >> It's HP-IB. Unfortunately one of the thumbscrews is missing from the GPIB >> connector. >> >> > I assume these are the little rollers on the clamp arms above the >> > plotter deck. >> >> Yep. >> >> > Whether a thin 'rubber' coating (for example heatshrink sleeving) on a >> > tapered hub would work, I don't know. I think I'd try that first, >> > because it's not hard to make. >> >> How are the rollers removed and reinstalled? I can't see any obvious way > to >> remove them without damaging the clamp arms. >> >> > Turning a tappered rubber roller is possible, but rubber is not easy >> > to machine. It helps to cool it, but not too far (I am told that solid >> > CO_2 is about the right tempeature). >> >> Who said anything about machining the roller? :) >> >> I just bought a pack of "Sugru" (a type of putty based on silicone) which > may well >> work for this. The trick is going to be making some form of rig to make a >> tapered rubber roller of the correct size... >> >> Thanks, >> -- >> Phil. > > Philip, > > This HP Journal has a few articles about the development and working of the > HP 7470 electronics and mechanics. > http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1982-12.pdf > > -Rik > > -- Gracias. -- Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations Sergio Pedraja twitter: @sergio_pedraja http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja https://www.xing.com/profile/Sergio_Pedraja http://www.viadeo.com http://www.avalonred.com/ ----- No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que est? vi?ndolo todo From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 4 14:09:26 2011 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 12:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1315163366.76101.YahooMailNeo@web38101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Phil, This looks great.??I have several old OSI, Apple, HP, and Commodore computers with floppies that I would love to preserve/recover/restore.??Is there some kind of guide or manual indicating: - the best hardware setup (e.g., can I use an IBM DD drive to recover older Apple and OSI disks???How about ond of the HD drives?)?? - General approach to analyzing a disk (perhaps an example of one format that you've supported, fully worked through?) I am planning on ordering a DiscFerret, but a bit of Documentation on the Wiki would go a long way toward making these immediately useful. Best regards, Dave >________________________________ >From: Philip Pemberton <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk> >To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 8:00 PM >Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! > >I'm sure most of you are probably aware of my DiscFerret disc analyser project: >? http://www.discferret.com > >The Cliff Notes: it's an enhanced, ground-up-re-engineered Catweasel-type disc analyser, with a USB interface, more accurate data sampling, and ST-506 disc support (with an adapter board). All the design files and source code can be downloaded freely from the website above, and are licensed under OSI-Compliant open-source licenses. > >I'm doing another hardware production run in the next week or so. I have 25 blank PCBs ready to assemble, and parts arriving on Monday to assemble them. > >For extra bonus points, I managed to get a good deal on the power supplies -- these are now ?5 cheaper while stocks last! > >Prices are: >? - Fully assembled and tested unit, no cables or PSU: ?139 >? - Cable kit -- supports up to two drives, 3.5 or 5.25-inch, PC- or Shugart-style (34 pin edge connector or pin header). Power is supplied from the DiscFerret. Add ?10 >? - Power supply - add ?22.50 >? - Shipping -- fully tracked and insured! >? ? ? UK mainland -- ?7.50 >? ? ? Europe -- ?15 >? ? ? USA -- ?17.50 > >Unfortunately there's not a lot I can do about the international shipping charges... I'm looking into alternatives... > >To order -- email me at philpem at philpem.me.uk, and I'll send you an invoice for the total. Payment is via PayPal, or BACS / Faster Payments transfer (the latter for UK customers only). > >Thanks! >-- Phil. >classiccmp at philpem.me.uk >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > > > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 4 14:16:30 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 20:16:30 +0100 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E63CE8E.80808@philpem.me.uk> OK, I've been measuring up the rollers. While I was doing this, one of them disintegrated in my hands. So I did what any self-respecting engineer would do.... I got the callipers and reverse engineered them! The figures in the HP Journal are basically accurate. OD at the "wide" end is 9.5mm, and ~0.23mm less at the "narrow" (tapered) end. The complete roller is 6.5mm long, with a 2-degree taper. Given the angle and width (Adjacent length), we can use trig to get the height-above-base and the The inner core is 6/10 Nylon, black, with a 3mm diameter hole drilled through the centre. Eight equally-spaced wide teeth are formed around the circumference, with a tooth depth of 0.5mm. Measured from the tip of one tooth to the tip of the opposite tooth, the core has an OD of 7mm. An embossed ridge is placed in the middle of the core at the same level as the teeth, apparently to stop the roller slipping off laterally. The thickness of the rubber coating is thus: 9.50 - 7.00 = 2.50mm at the wide end 9.27 - 7.00 = 2.27mm at the narrow end. Would photos be of use to anyone? My plan now is to use a pack of black Sugru to expand these rollers out to ~12mm, leave them overnight to set, then try and machine them down to the correct profile tomorrow with the lathe. Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 4 14:22:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 20:22:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <010001cc6b26$4dd9f240$e98dd6c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 4, 11 06:15:51 pm Message-ID: > Oops, didn't check that properly! I really should have checked the full > function of the chip. > > Pin 1 of the 158 is connected to a signal that is definitely wrong in that > it is Low when it should be High. Tracking this back it is looking like a > failure in a DEC 8837 chip which is listed as a "RECEIVER, BUS, HEX, UN". Often DEC-numbered parts are selected versions of standard ICs with the same number, bnd the parameter they're sleected for may not really matter (!). Have you tried puting '8837' in one of the data sheet search engines to see what comes up. If the function and pinout looks sane, it may be a suitable device. Hw many pins does htis device have? What is the full functionality (or can you point me to an on-line copy of the printset so I can look over the schematic)? In particualr, does this cjip have enable inputs, and are they used (that is, not tied to +5V/gnd as appropriate)? Yes, you really do have to check everything. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 4 14:11:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 20:11:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <4E63C6E2.4010101@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 4, 11 07:43:46 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/09/11 15:30, Tony Duell wrote: > > Do you mean the screw-down jackposts on the chassis-mounted connector? > > Yes. One of them is present and screws in properly, the other appears to > have a male thread which is too small -- it just spins in the hole. Have you taken the plotter apart yet and seen what this is supposed to screw into? It's possibel there's a missing bush or nut inside the plotter. Try measuring the thread on the defective one. I am pretty sure it should be 6-32 UNC if it's the original part. If it is that thread, then the problem is elsewhere. > > It appears these rollers have as rigid hub with a rubber tyre. I don't > > know if the hob is tapered or not. > > It's a polyurethane tyre; the hub is 6/10 nylon with eight teeth around > its radius. OK. I tend to use 'rubber' generically to mean 'elastomer' for things like this. I know it's incorrect. Is trhe hub straight or tapered? I think what I'd try at this point would be to nake ne hubs from metal (brass, for example) with a suitable taper (an external taper of this size is easy to make on a lathe by settign the top slide at the appropriate angle, of course). Then try 1 or 2 layers of heatshrink sleeving on it. At least you won't damage any of th eoriginal HP parts doing this, so you can always go back and try something else. > And unfortunately I don't have any dry ice (solid CO2). Grrrr. It's at times like this that I wish I had contacts in industry/universities... > Or another option would be to make a metal version of the required part, > cast it to make a mould, then use said mould to cast a new part out of > whatever material you like. > > Far more effort than it's worth though, IMHO. Easier to just make the > damn thing.... Indeed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 4 14:26:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 20:26:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: from "joe lobocki" at Aug 25, 11 03:08:57 pm Message-ID: > > Do these even exist? I have this vision of them being stripped and scrapped Do what even exist? There are still some minicomputers around, including some in 6' racks. And I can assue you that Dr ARD has not yet been stripped for parts ;-) -tony > for junk at some time. I read somewhere where people have made big iron > replicas.... > > On Thursday, August 25, 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > The obvious asnwer to the subject: line is 'Dr ARD' :-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 4 14:47:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 15:47:22 -0400 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <1F396EF76C7849568CF73FE8A4008D36@portajara> References: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> <4E63B257.4060209@brouhaha.com> <1F396EF76C7849568CF73FE8A4008D36@portajara> Message-ID: <4E63D5CA.7060907@neurotica.com> On 09/04/2011 01:36 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> The 2900/3900/3980 are cost-reduced versions of the Unisite, which was >> one of the best universal programmers. The main drawbacks of these are: > > And thinking that I had one, and sold for a cheap...some 15 years ago :( I wish I'd known you then...I bought one ("for an expensive" ;)) some 15 years ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 4 14:48:29 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 15:48:29 -0400 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <4E63BD3F.8050804@bitsavers.org> References: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> <4E63B257.4060209@brouhaha.com> <4E63BD3F.8050804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E63D60D.9070300@neurotica.com> On 09/04/2011 02:02 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> > Also, where can I find the PLCC/SOIC/etc programming beds for it? >> > For a cheap price, of course :o) >> >> Data I/O and "cheap price" are rarely mentioned together. >> > > I also believe they are no longer making the conductive pads for the > universal PLCC > sites, and they do go bad frequently. It's possible to use the bases without those pads, but you have to be careful. A programmer doesn't become useless when those pads become unavailable. That said, it'll be a while before they become unavailable; there are a lot of them out there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 4 14:52:47 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 15:52:47 -0400 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> References: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> Message-ID: <4E63D70F.4090002@neurotica.com> On 09/04/2011 12:14 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I got a Data I/O 2900 programmer with the (44? 48? It hasn't arrived > here yet) programming bed. How good is this programmer, compared to > newer toys like the Vellom VP280? It seems to program older devices that > the VP280 doesn't program. Also, where can I find the PLCC/SOIC/etc > programming beds for it? For a cheap price, of course :o) If you find a good deal on one, grab it. They are wonderful programmers. I used one for many years, until I replaced it with a UniSite. (which has a hard drive, supports more than 20,000 devices, that's just with the five-year-old software I have, the current software supports even more) The 2900 is "almost" a UniSite, but not quite. I dicked around with cheesy "plug it into a PC parallel port" programmers for years until I finally drove a real professional instrument. I bought one (that 2900) and haven't looked back. (I have software for these, BTW) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 4 15:20:56 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 13:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Model II Digging In-Reply-To: <4E5F031C.3080501@nathanpralle.com> References: <4E5F031C.3080501@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: <20110904130729.X25545@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011, Nathan Pralle wrote: > I'd believe it for one or two, but all of them? It seems unlikely, > although I could blame bit-rot perhaps. I'm hoping it has something to > do with the hardware instead. YES > Popping it open, the unit powers on and the drive head is dropped to the > spinning disk, then lifted, then dropped, then lifted, and the error > occurs. I cannot see if the head is close enough to the disk or not > (and I have *no* idea of the tolerances anyway) and am not sure how I'd > adjust it -- or drive speed, etc. if that's an issue. Floppy drives operate with the head in contact. > So, anyone got ideas? There *is* a remote possibility that all the > disks I got were wiped either by the previous owner or in some sort of > magnetic disaster, but they're well-labeled and came from a working > haul, so I have to imagine that they're still good. Or at least, I'm > hoping they are. (The bits are damned near visible on these things, > after all.) Perhaps somebody had a malfunctioning drive. It ate the disk. So, he put the next disk in, and it ate it, also. Sequentially and systematically, he destroyed every disk. HOPEFULLY NOT! From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Sep 4 15:30:36 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 16:30:36 -0400 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E63DFEC.80302@verizon.net> On 09/04/2011 03:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Oops, didn't check that properly! I really should have checked the full >> function of the chip. >> >> Pin 1 of the 158 is connected to a signal that is definitely wrong in that >> it is Low when it should be High. Tracking this back it is looking like a >> failure in a DEC 8837 chip which is listed as a "RECEIVER, BUS, HEX, UN". > Often DEC-numbered parts are selected versions of standard ICs with the > same number, bnd the parameter they're sleected for may not really matter > (!). Have you tried puting '8837' in one of the data sheet search engines > to see what comes up. If the function and pinout looks sane, it may be a > suitable device. > > Hw many pins does htis device have? What is the full functionality (or > can you point me to an on-line copy of the printset so I can look over > the schematic)? > > In particualr, does this cjip have enable inputs, and are they used (that > is, not tied to +5V/gnd as appropriate)? Yes, you really do have to check > everything. > > -tony That is a DEC unique Open collector bus driver with high current outputs and the input side has a Schmidt trigger input. The usual source is junk boards. Its one of about 10 chips DEC develped and used for bus interfacing for Omnibus, Unibus and Qbus and was ideally suited for cable drivers and peripheral IO. Allison From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Sep 4 15:31:53 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 16:31:53 -0400 Subject: Difficulties of digital preservation - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8CB.9070602@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AC6BB.1070608@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AE62F.2060202@neurotica.com> <20110828182800.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AF4F3.4020101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <08423DB234864330843BDC4362585F44@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Jackson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 10:52 PM Subject: Re: Difficulties of digital preservation - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) > My archival yardstick is my copy of "The Womens Journal' that I have on my > book shelf from 1820, and to compare, even a text editor to that..... > Nothing comes close to paper, and paper is not that long lasting. > > Doug The Womens Journal from 1820? They must have some nice articles about how to scrub laundry down by the river. ;) My crappy old college library has some books from the late 1700's so some paper must hold up well if taken care of. Paper made pre 1850 didn't have acid so it will last a long time (they used limestone rollers which took out the acid in the paper pulp). From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 4 15:40:11 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:40:11 -0700 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: References: <4E63C6E2.4010101@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 4, 11 07:43:46 pm, Message-ID: <4E637FBB.22673.10C02E6@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2011 at 20:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > And unfortunately I don't have any dry ice (solid CO2). Grrrr. > > It's at times like this that I wish I had contacts in > industry/universities... Is solid CO2 considered a hazardous substance in the UK? You can get it in just about any medium-sized city in the US, usually sold by "ice companies". Can one buy acetone in the UK, or is that also on the proscribed list? --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Sep 4 15:40:54 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 08:40:54 +1200 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Digging References: <4E612BC7.6000909@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: <4CDA0F6C292F4FF09FC1F9C7C1547431@massey.ac.nz> How are the disks? The media on old disks can sometimes flake off and clog up the heads. You might have already checked this, but if you haven't my approach would be to first give the heads a good clean and carefully examine the disks for any visual symptoms of degredation (patchy looking areas etc.). If any is seen, there is a good chance as soon as you spin that disk again the heads will be re-covered with gunk. Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nathan Pralle" To: "cctalk" Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:17 AM Subject: TRS-80 Model II Digging > Finally pulled out the TRS-80 Model II tonight with the intention of > actually working on it for once (shocker!) and trying to get it > operational. > > It powers up, drive spins, screen comes on, lights glow, etc. Insert > any one of about 20 8" floppies that I have that are specifically for the > Model Ii and..... > > Nothing. Well. BOOT ERROR RS, which is translated as, "Disk not in > RadioShack format." > > I'd believe it for one or two, but all of them? It seems unlikely, > although I could blame bit-rot perhaps. I'm hoping it has something to > do with the hardware instead. > > Popping it open, the unit powers on and the drive head is dropped to the > spinning disk, then lifted, then dropped, then lifted, and the error > occurs. I cannot see if the head is close enough to the disk or not (and > I have *no* idea of the tolerances anyway) and am not sure how I'd adjust > it -- or drive speed, etc. if that's an issue. > > So, anyone got ideas? There *is* a remote possibility that all the > disks I got were wiped either by the previous owner or in some sort of > magnetic disaster, but they're well-labeled and came from a working haul, > so I have to imagine that they're still good. Or at least, I'm hoping > they are. (The bits are damned near visible on these things, after all.) > > Your ideas and good guesses welcome and very much appreciated. > > Nathan > -- > *Nathan E. Pralle* > Computer Geek > www.nathanpralle.com > www.philosyphia.com > www.twitter.com/NPralle > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 4 16:03:11 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 22:03:11 +0100 Subject: Train shipping ( was Re: VT fixums ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E63E78F.6010907@philpem.me.uk> On 30/08/11 20:36, Tony Duell wrote: > I havre no idea waht the official restrictuions are, but I've carried the > following on British trains (on serparate occasions) : My current records: One large box, sized to take a large microwave oven, containing a photographic print drier (RC drier -- basically a fan-heater and a metal box) and a ton of developing and printing gear (tanks, reels and so forth). This particular box spent the entire 40min journey in the vestibule area by the doors... thankfully Class 333s have bloody huge doors. Turning the box on its side got it through the door and onto the local train. While the conductor's back was turned, of course :) Most recently: A HP 7570A plotter in one carrier bag, An Advantest R3361A spectrum analyser on a wheeled shopping trolley (sans bag, but with a lot of bubble-wrap and nylon rope) A carrier bag full of parts, cables and manuals for the plotter and SA. Yes, my arms ached when I got home... That didn't stop me lifting it up onto the testbench and playing with it, though! :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 4 16:06:41 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 22:06:41 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: References: <010001cc6b26$4dd9f240$e98dd6c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 4, 11 06:15:51 pm Message-ID: <010c01cc6b46$8c92dea0$a5b89be0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 04 September 2011 20:22 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems > > > Oops, didn't check that properly! I really should have checked the > > full function of the chip. > > > > Pin 1 of the 158 is connected to a signal that is definitely wrong in > > that it is Low when it should be High. Tracking this back it is > > looking like a failure in a DEC 8837 chip which is listed as a "RECEIVER, BUS, > HEX, UN". > > Often DEC-numbered parts are selected versions of standard ICs with the > same number, bnd the parameter they're sleected for may not really matter > (!). Have you tried puting '8837' in one of the data sheet search engines to > see what comes up. If the function and pinout looks sane, it may be a suitable > device. > > Hw many pins does htis device have? What is the full functionality (or can you > point me to an on-line copy of the printset so I can look over the schematic)? > > In particualr, does this cjip have enable inputs, and are they used (that is, not > tied to +5V/gnd as appropriate)? Yes, you really do have to check everything. > > -tony The PDF of the printset came from here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP02259_RQDX3_schem_Oct85.pdf Look at p12 for the M5098, the component that is not working is E1, specifically pin 3 is high and pin 4 is high, but pin 1 is high and pin 2 is low. I checked the enable inputs too, pins 7 and 9, and they are both low, which looks correct to me. There seems to be a National Semiconductor chip with a similar designation and description (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets/120/216865_DS.pdf), but that does not seem to be made any more and I don't know what the equivalent is (if any). Someone has offered me a couple of 8837s, but if I can find a source of equivalents I would prefer to buy those rather than use someone's spares. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 4 16:10:51 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 22:10:51 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems References: <010001cc6b26$4dd9f240$e98dd6c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 4, 11 06:15:51 pm Message-ID: <010d01cc6b47$21ea1220$65be3660$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > Sent: 04 September 2011 22:07 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: 04 September 2011 20:22 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems > > > > > Oops, didn't check that properly! I really should have checked the > > > full function of the chip. > > > > > > Pin 1 of the 158 is connected to a signal that is definitely wrong > > > in that it is Low when it should be High. Tracking this back it is > > > looking like a failure in a DEC 8837 chip which is listed as a > > > "RECEIVER, BUS, > > HEX, UN". > > > > Often DEC-numbered parts are selected versions of standard ICs with > > the same number, bnd the parameter they're sleected for may not really > > matter (!). Have you tried puting '8837' in one of the data sheet > > search engines to see what comes up. If the function and pinout looks > > sane, it may be a suitable device. > > > > Hw many pins does htis device have? What is the full functionality (or > > can you point me to an on-line copy of the printset so I can look over the > schematic)? > > > > In particualr, does this cjip have enable inputs, and are they used > > (that is, not tied to +5V/gnd as appropriate)? Yes, you really do have to > check everything. > > > > -tony > > The PDF of the printset came from here: > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP02259_RQDX3_schem_Oct85.pdf > > Look at p12 for the M5098, the component that is not working is E1, > specifically pin 3 is high and pin 4 is high, but pin 1 is high and pin 2 is low. > > I checked the enable inputs too, pins 7 and 9, and they are both low, which > looks correct to me. > > There seems to be a National Semiconductor chip with a similar designation > and description > (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets/120/216865_DS.pdf), but that > does not seem to be made any more and I don't know what the equivalent is > (if any). > > Someone has offered me a couple of 8837s, but if I can find a source of > equivalents I would prefer to buy those rather than use someone's spares. > > Regards > > Rob Just after sending the above I thought I would check at your favourite (Cricklewood Electronics) and also eBay, I found some 8837s there, so I think I will order these. Regards Rob From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Sep 4 16:32:10 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 14:32:10 -0700 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <4E63DFEC.80302@verizon.net> References: <4E63DFEC.80302@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E63EE5A.20709@brouhaha.com> allison wrote about the DEC8837: > That is a DEC unique Open collector bus driver with high current outputs > and the input side has a Schmidt trigger input. The usual source is junk > boards. Its one of about 10 chips DEC develped and used for bus interfacing > for Omnibus, Unibus and Qbus and was ideally suited for cable drivers > and peripheral IO. DEC didn't develop it, National Semiconductor developed it, and sold it as the DS8837. DEC had them binned for slightly tighter receiver threshold and leakage current specifications, so in principle a DS8837 might not meet the DEC specifications for a DEC8837. In practice they almost always did, as National Semiconductor was fairly conservative about the specifications for the standard part. From ceby2 at csc.com Sun Sep 4 16:40:24 2011 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 22:40:24 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 97, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rich, >> You could force an 8 bit boundary on the resulting data, but things >> like sector headers are sometimes deliberately encoded in >> fluctuation sequences that don't conform to rest the data encoding. >That's hardly deterministic, and would certainly not work on, for >example, a disk written by a PDP-10 (36 bit words represented as pairs >of 18 bits + parity), to take a popular example. There *are* no >deterministic outcomes, especially in archival work. There is only >interpretation. Precisely, yes. But even with byte encoding of bitstreams you have an endian problem. At some point the capture system imposes its personality on the process and you simply have document what you've done so the upstream ('viewer'/'accessor') toolset can take it into account in post processing. The adding of metadata context is what contributes to the deterministic outcome, rather than attempting to force raw capture into a rigid format. >http://www.boogles.com/local/papers/tcfs-thesis/thesis.html >This is Brian Zuzga's 1995 undergraduate thesis at MIT on a project to >archive the backups done at the MIT AI Lab using what they named "the >Time Capsule File System". Nihil novi sub sole (Ecc. 1:9-10). Thanks for the reference. I must have come across it before at some point as it seems very familiar. But it wasn't a work I was referencing yet in preparation. I'm studying it closely, along with things like the UPF. What strikes me is how there are several originating documents around effort followed by long silences and lack of back references. It may be down to the relatively cursory nature of my work so far, but it seems adoption of these formats and processes has been either quiet or limited. Is that a misapprehension on my part? Any other efforts you think I should investigate? -- Colin From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Sep 4 17:11:18 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 15:11:18 -0700 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <010c01cc6b46$8c92dea0$a5b89be0$@ntlworld.com> References: <010001cc6b26$4dd9f240$e98dd6c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 4, 11 06:15:51 pm <010c01cc6b46$8c92dea0$a5b89be0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E63F786.1080905@brouhaha.com> Rob Jarratt wrote: > Someone has offered me a couple of 8837s, but if I can find a source of > equivalents I would prefer to buy those rather than use someone's spares. At this point all there is is spares. There is no equivalent; the closest thing to an equivalent that is in production has receiver thresholds significantly different than those that are needed. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 4 17:23:25 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 23:23:25 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <4E63F786.1080905@brouhaha.com> References: <010001cc6b26$4dd9f240$e98dd6c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 4, 11 06:15:51 pm <010c01cc6b46$8c92dea0$a5b89be0$@ntlworld.com> <4E63F786.1080905@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <013c01cc6b51$44db5690$ce9203b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: 04 September 2011 23:11 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems > > Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Someone has offered me a couple of 8837s, but if I can find a source of > > equivalents I would prefer to buy those rather than use someone's spares. > > At this point all there is is spares. There is no equivalent; the closest thing to > an equivalent that is in production has receiver thresholds significantly > different than those that are needed. Eric, Your other reply suggests that the DEC 8837 does have an almost equivalent in the NS DS8837 which I have found a source for. I am unclear if you think NS devices would do or not? What is the worst that could happen if the NS part was not up to DEC specifications? Thanks Rob From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 4 17:25:59 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 23:25:59 +0100 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E63FAF7.5020104@philpem.me.uk> On 04/09/11 20:11, Tony Duell wrote: > Try measuring the thread on the defective one. I am pretty sure it should > be 6-32 UNC if it's the original part. If it is that thread, then the > problem is elsewhere. It's a completely different part. The HP one has a hex nut head, this one has a knurled round head, a smaller diameter screw thread and is much shorter. >> It's a polyurethane tyre; the hub is 6/10 nylon with eight teeth around >> its radius. > > OK. I tend to use 'rubber' generically to mean 'elastomer' for things > like this. I know it's incorrect. > > Is trhe hub straight or tapered? The hub is straight. And the HP part disintegrated completely just after I finished measuring it... I've bodged it for now -- by stretching a piece of model aircraft fuel hose over the HP hub. It works... mostly. The wheel is now a little oversize, and there obviously isn't a taper. I might try attacking it with the lathe tomorrow night... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 4 17:45:17 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 16:45:17 -0600 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <013c01cc6b51$44db5690$ce9203b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <010001cc6b26$4dd9f240$e98dd6c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 4, 11 06:15:51 pm <010c01cc6b46$8c92dea0$a5b89be0$@ntlworld.com> <4E63F786.1080905@brouhaha.com> <013c01cc6b51$44db5690$ce9203b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E63FF7D.3070501@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/4/2011 4:23 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- > Your other reply suggests that the DEC 8837 does have an almost equivalent > in the NS DS8837 which I have found a source for. I am unclear if you think > NS devices would do or not? What is the worst that could happen if the NS > part was not up to DEC specifications? It don't work! How ever one can check the loading to see if the driver chip will work in your system. > Thanks > > Rob > Ben. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 4 17:47:34 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 23:47:34 +0100 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <4E637FBB.22673.10C02E6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E63C6E2.4010101@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 4, 11 07:43:46 pm, <4E637FBB.22673.10C02E6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E640006.5070506@philpem.me.uk> On 04/09/11 21:40, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Is solid CO2 considered a hazardous substance in the UK? You can get > it in just about any medium-sized city in the US, usually sold by > "ice companies". Can one buy acetone in the UK, or is that also on > the proscribed list? Your "friendly neighbourhood hardware store" won't sell it to you, and neither will the chemists.... but that's what eBay is for :) You can get everything you need to kickstart a cupric chloride etch tank from ebay -- that's basically concrete cleaner (hydrochloric acid), high-strength hyrdogen peroxide, and a lump or two of scrap copper. Dry ice... that's a little harder. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 4 17:58:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 18:58:39 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <1314384082.84676.YahooMailClassic@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1314384082.84676.YahooMailClassic@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E64029F.9040008@neurotica.com> On 08/26/2011 02:41 PM, Chris M wrote: > --- On Fri, 8/19/11, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Overall they are very nice machines. > > Oh no they're not. Ohhhhh yes they are. :) > Nobody told me the cpu guts were buried under the > motherboard, so I threw one out (I found it in the snow in Freehold, > NJ alongside route 9). Why would the location of the motherboard cause you to trash a machine? > And those darned emi copper springs were > always falling all over the place. If they're abused, yes. > Ok, the issue is it was made kind of too well. But nobody cares. It's a basic pain. I guess I just don't follow that logic. *I* care (not that you should care about the fact that I care ;)) because I sold and serviced those machines when they were new, and was always impressed by them for a number of reasons. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Sep 4 17:59:20 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 18:59:20 -0400 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <4E640006.5070506@philpem.me.uk> References: <4E63C6E2.4010101@philpem.me.uk> <4E637FBB.22673.10C02E6@cclist.sydex.com> <4E640006.5070506@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > Your "friendly neighbourhood hardware store" won't sell it to you, and > neither will the chemists.... but that's what eBay is for :) Quite a few UK grocery stores sell dry ice, as well as some restaurant supply houses. Me thinks you are not looking very hard... -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 4 17:59:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 18:59:37 -0400 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4E6402D9.7030402@neurotica.com> On 08/25/2011 03:15 AM, James Wilson wrote: > But that takes away what, for me anyway, is one of the most fun aspects > of this hobby - the hunt! Ugh! To each his own, man. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Sep 4 18:16:28 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 23:16:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Adding machine repair Message-ID: I have a pair of Olivetti Underwood 288s (10-key 7 digit input, 8 digit output adding machines), one of which I got from list member Patrick Finnegan a couple of years ago, and one which I found in a local thrift store this summer. Finding the second one inspired me to try to get them working... and I am rather out of my depth. The only electrical part (the AC induction motor that powers the mechanism) works fine in both, but both have other, mechanical issues. I've run them some under electrical power and spent a lot more time slowly turning the mechanism by hand, trying to work out what it's doing. Both have 'sticky digits', i.e. the mechanism that both rotates the type wheels into the correct position during the print part of the cycle and then is added to the accumulator in the accumulate part of the cycle doesn't move freely and thus doesn't print and doesn't accumulate the correct totals. One also has sticky pins in the input register and the other doesn't seem to carry at all and has a sticky 'leading zero suppression' mechanism. First and foremost, the oil in both machines has congealed into a sticky mess. I clearly need to replace it, but I have no idea what to replace it with. I suspect that it's something similar to what's used to lube typewriters, given that they were built by typewriter companies using typewriter-inspired mechanisms? Second, I have no idea how to take them apart correctly. I've successfully gotten the covers off, but I can't even get the ribbon holder/winding assembly off since it's linked to a mechanism that's supposed to lift it to switch from black to red ink, and I can't find a way to safely disengage them... I've also tried to remove the platen cylinder, but the ribbon holder is in the way of the retaining screws. The only other things I can obviously remove at this point are return springs that hold various levers/cams in place, but I can't see how that would help me remove anything behind them, and all of the cams seem to be maually aligned on their axles, held in the correct position by the same screws that would need to be removed to take the axles out. Ease of service does not seem to have been a design goal in these machines :-/ My inability to disassemble them is doubly problematic since parts of the mechanism are buried behind so much other stuff that I can't see what they're doing, and there are parts that I can't seem to get to move using any combination of front panel inputs... there's one bit that I've found a way to reset (subtracting) but not a way to set using normal inputs... and I don't see any way of actuating the ink-color-swithcing mechanism. Does anyone have experience with anything similar that would be able to offer advice? I'd be glad to make photos and my reverse-engineering notes available... They are fascinating machines (the whole accumulator rotates around backwards to subtract!), but I am afraid of damaging them with my clumsy attempts at repair. Since I have two, I guess I can muddle along by trial and error, but I would really love to hear from someone that's worked on a similar device before. Alexey From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Sep 4 18:32:41 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:32:41 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E64029F.9040008@neurotica.com> References: <1314384082.84676.YahooMailClassic@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4E64029F.9040008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E640A99.3060900@atarimuseum.com> I used to service those "things" - Olivetta crapolla IMHO Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/26/2011 02:41 PM, Chris M wrote: >> --- On Fri, 8/19/11, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> Overall they are very nice machines. >> >> Oh no they're not. > > Ohhhhh yes they are. :) > >> Nobody told me the cpu guts were buried under the >> motherboard, so I threw one out (I found it in the snow in Freehold, >> NJ alongside route 9). > > Why would the location of the motherboard cause you to trash a machine? > >> And those darned emi copper springs were >> always falling all over the place. > > If they're abused, yes. > >> Ok, the issue is it was made kind of too well. But nobody cares. It's >> a basic pain. > > I guess I just don't follow that logic. *I* care (not that you > should care about the fact that I care ;)) because I sold and serviced > those machines when they were new, and was always impressed by them > for a number of reasons. > > -Dave > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun Sep 4 18:36:19 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 00:36:19 +0100 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While I have not repaired adding machines I have done many mechanical mechanisms, For something that complex a manual is very useful for the basic method of taking assemblies apart. For some riveted mechanisms immersion in an ultrasonic bath is the easiest way but any plastics and paint may be damaged. There are some watch cleaner solutions that dry leaving some oil, they are designed for the total mechanism immersion in an ultrasonic bath except for the painted dial. Else its a careful disassembly and cleaning process, you should be able to identify sections that can be done in isolation. Dave Caroline From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 4 18:37:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:37:27 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E640A99.3060900@atarimuseum.com> References: <1314384082.84676.YahooMailClassic@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4E64029F.9040008@neurotica.com> <4E640A99.3060900@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4E640BB7.8080204@neurotica.com> Well to each his own. I used to service them too, and I've always liked them. -Dave On 09/04/2011 07:32 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I used to service those "things" - Olivetta crapolla IMHO > > > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 08/26/2011 02:41 PM, Chris M wrote: >>> --- On Fri, 8/19/11, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>>> Overall they are very nice machines. >>> >>> Oh no they're not. >> >> Ohhhhh yes they are. :) >> >>> Nobody told me the cpu guts were buried under the >>> motherboard, so I threw one out (I found it in the snow in Freehold, >>> NJ alongside route 9). >> >> Why would the location of the motherboard cause you to trash a machine? >> >>> And those darned emi copper springs were >>> always falling all over the place. >> >> If they're abused, yes. >> >>> Ok, the issue is it was made kind of too well. But nobody cares. It's >>> a basic pain. >> >> I guess I just don't follow that logic. *I* care (not that you should >> care about the fact that I care ;)) because I sold and serviced those >> machines when they were new, and was always impressed by them for a >> number of reasons. >> >> -Dave >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 4 18:37:25 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 16:37:25 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <4E63D60D.9070300@neurotica.com> References: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> <4E63B257.4060209@brouhaha.com> <4E63BD3F.8050804@bitsavers.org> <4E63D60D.9070300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E640BB5.7040805@bitsavers.org> On 9/4/11 12:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > It's possible to use the bases without those pads, but you have to be careful. A programmer doesn't become useless when those pads become unavailable. > > That said, it'll be a while before they become unavailable; there are a lot of them out there. > Are we talking about the same thing? the small black rubber looking sheets with gold wires embedded in them? From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Sep 4 18:40:36 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 16:40:36 -0700 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <013c01cc6b51$44db5690$ce9203b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <010001cc6b26$4dd9f240$e98dd6c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 4, 11 06:15:51 pm <010c01cc6b46$8c92dea0$a5b89be0$@ntlworld.com> <4E63F786.1080905@brouhaha.com> <013c01cc6b51$44db5690$ce9203b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E640C74.7030002@brouhaha.com> > Your other reply suggests that the DEC 8837 does have an almost equivalent > in the NS DS8837 which I have found a source for. I am unclear if you think > NS devices would do or not? it should work. > What is the worst that could happen if the NS part was not up to DEC specifications? A system near the maximum configuration limits might be less reliable. For a more typical system there would be no issue. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Sep 4 18:41:21 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:41:21 -0400 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <4E63EE5A.20709@brouhaha.com> References: <4E63DFEC.80302@verizon.net> <4E63EE5A.20709@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E640CA1.4080800@verizon.net> On 09/04/2011 05:32 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > allison wrote about the DEC8837: > > That is a DEC unique Open collector bus driver with high current > outputs > > and the input side has a Schmidt trigger input. The usual source is > junk > > boards. Its one of about 10 chips DEC develped and used for bus > interfacing > > for Omnibus, Unibus and Qbus and was ideally suited for cable drivers > > and peripheral IO. > > DEC didn't develop it, National Semiconductor developed it, and sold > it as the DS8837. > > DEC had them binned for slightly tighter receiver threshold and > leakage current specifications, so in principle a DS8837 might not > meet the DEC specifications for a DEC8837. In practice they almost > always did, as National Semiconductor was fairly conservative about > the specifications for the standard part. > > > While thats true if DEC was not consuming them NS would have gotten out of that part and its friends. Allison From bdwheele at indiana.edu Sun Sep 4 18:49:44 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:49:44 -0400 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <201108301854.p7UIsRHh007428@ultimate.com> References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> <201108301854.p7UIsRHh007428@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <1315180186.1766.6.camel@bender> On Tue, 2011-08-30 at 14:54 -0400, Phil Budne wrote: > (I had privately written I thought I had 4.1.3U1). > > I did two better than 4.1.3U1, and found "Solaris 1.0.1" (aka SunOS > 4.1.2 + OW2), but it's SPARC only. It looks like 4.1.1U1 was the last > for Sun3 (and Sun2 was supported in 4.0.3, tho I'm sure it was AWFUL > slow!!)! > > Looks like the ingredients (including 4.1.1U1) are available at: > http://www.sun3arc.org/BootTapes/index.phtml > > Net boot docs at: > http://sites.inka.de/pcde/site/documentation_files/sunos_network_boot.html > > And information about CD vs tape layout (Appendix A): > http://www.sun3zoo.de/en/install.html (But I imagine making a bootable > CD would produce many coasters first). > > I'd probably do a diskless boot, format (partition) and dd the > miniroot in, and do a disk install from there (or just keep it diskless). > I'm actually in the process of doing this with my sun 3/60 and 4.1.1. I had it on there and upgraded to 4.1.1U1 but the 20 year old disk died :( So I'm doing with a different disk this time. I've written some documentation for myself to netboot and then netinstall from a centos server. If anyone is interested, I can post it. To do the netinstall rsh has to be enabled and the cdrom data has to be located at /usr/etc/install/tar on the server machine. Brian > Good luck! > Phil > > BTW I have a complete SunOS 4.0 doc set (in boxes), with 4.0.3 update, > and a 4.1.2 install manual free to anyone who pays shippping, and will > scan them, and make them available for free! > > I also have a mess of SPARC equipment I saved from the dumpster: two > SS10, an SS4 and an SS5 (one with bad power supply) and a bunch of > "lunchbox" systems (IPC, IPX, Classic, LX), a Sun QIC drive, and a > mess of SCSI cables. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 4 18:50:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:50:26 -0400 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <4E640BB5.7040805@bitsavers.org> References: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> <4E63B257.4060209@brouhaha.com> <4E63BD3F.8050804@bitsavers.org> <4E63D60D.9070300@neurotica.com> <4E640BB5.7040805@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E640EC2.5040707@neurotica.com> On 09/04/2011 07:37 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> It's possible to use the bases without those pads, but you have to be >> careful. A programmer doesn't become useless when those pads become >> unavailable. >> >> That said, it'll be a while before they become unavailable; there are >> a lot of them out there. > > Are we talking about the same thing? the small black rubber looking > sheets with gold wires embedded in them? It's more like gold powder, but yes, those are the ones. All they really do is compensate for vertical misalignment of chip pins by providing something for them to push "into". Otherwise, that misalignment compensation comes from the springiness of the lowest-sticking pins. I've successfully used a PLCC base with no rubber/gold sheet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 4 19:02:19 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 20:02:19 -0400 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <1315180186.1766.6.camel@bender> References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> <201108301854.p7UIsRHh007428@ultimate.com> <1315180186.1766.6.camel@bender> Message-ID: <4E64118B.9070905@neurotica.com> On 09/04/2011 07:49 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > I've written some documentation for myself to netboot and then > netinstall from a centos server. If anyone is interested, I can post > it. To do the netinstall rsh has to be enabled and the cdrom data has > to be located at /usr/etc/install/tar on the server machine. Oh yes, please do, that could be handy! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Sep 4 19:05:32 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 00:05:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Sep 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: > For something that complex a manual is very useful for the basic > method of taking assemblies apart. I'd love to have a manual, but I haven't been able to find any document whatsoever that mentions the Olivetti Underwood 288. Alexey From bdwheele at indiana.edu Sun Sep 4 19:19:03 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 20:19:03 -0400 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <4E64118B.9070905@neurotica.com> References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> <201108301854.p7UIsRHh007428@ultimate.com> <1315180186.1766.6.camel@bender> <4E64118B.9070905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1315181946.1766.12.camel@bender> On Sun, 2011-09-04 at 20:02 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/04/2011 07:49 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > I've written some documentation for myself to netboot and then > > netinstall from a centos server. If anyone is interested, I can post > > it. To do the netinstall rsh has to be enabled and the cdrom data has > > to be located at /usr/etc/install/tar on the server machine. > > Oh yes, please do, that could be handy! > > -Dave > Its a little rough, but it should cover most of the nasty parts. Brian -------------------------------------------- SunOS 4.1.1 Network Installation For my setup, I used these settings: * the ip for the sun box will be 192.168.0.92 * the mac address for the sun box is 08:00:20:00:4E:BD * the ip for the server box will be 192.168.0.253 * the server box is Centos 5 * the name of the sun box is (creatively) sun3 * the nfsroot for the sun3 box is server:/raid/shared/sun3 ($SUN3HOME) 1) download these directories from www.sun3arc.org somewhere ($SUN3ARC): BootTapes/Sun3 Misc-Patches Sun-Patches precompiled 2) create root directory for the sun3 to nfs boot into. you'll need to be root so all of the permissions and ownership are set correctly. cd $SUN3HOME tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_proto_root.sunos_4_1_1.tar.Z mkdir usr cd usr tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_usr.tar.Z mkdir kvm cd kvm tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_kvm.tar.Z tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_sys.tar.Z cd $SUN3HOME/usr tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_install.tar.Z tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_manual.tar.Z tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_text.tar.Z tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_networking.tar.Z cd $SUN3HOME ln -s usr/kvm/stand/vmunix . cp $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/miniroot_sun3 . cp $SUn3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/munix* . cd dev ./MAKEDEV std 3) create a swap file cd $SUN3HOME dd if=/dev/zero of=swapfile bs=1048576 count=64 4) setup rarpd 4a) install rarpd yum install -y rarpd 4b) populate /etc/ethers: 08:00:20:00:4E:BD 192.168.0.92 4c) start rarpd /sbin/service rarpd start 5) setup tftp 5a) install tftp yum install -y tftp-server tftp 5b) link to standalone boot. Hex value of 192.168.0.92 is C0A8005C cd /tftpboot cp $SUN3HOME/usr/kvm/stand/boot.sun3 . ln -s boot3.sun C0A8005C 5c) enable tftp by setting 'disable' to 'no' in /etc/xinetd.d/tftp 5d) restart xinetd /sbin/service xinetd restart 6) give the sun3 a name. Add this line to /etc/hosts: 192.168.0.92 sun3 7) setup bootparamd 7a) install yum install -y bootparamd 7b) configure by adding this line to /etc/bootparams sun3 root=192.168.0.253:/raid/shared/sun3 gateway=192.168.0.254:0xffffff00 swap= 192.168.0.253:/raid/shared/sun3/swapfile 8) setup nfs 8a) exprot the root file system and swap by adding these lines to /etc/exports /raid/shared/sun3 192.168.0.0/24(rw,insecure,no_root_squash) /raid/shared/sun3/swapfile 192.168.0.0/24(rw,insecure,no_root_squash) 9) start up all of the rpc-style servers /sbin/service portmap restart /sbin/service nfs restart /sbin/service bootparamd restart **** At this you should be able to boot the sun3 over nfs using "b le()". **** it will have some failures, but you should have a root prompt. **** My boot looks like this: ------------------------- >b le() Boot: le(0,0,0) Using IP Address 192.168.0.92 = C0A8005C Booting from tftp server at 192.168.0.254 = C0A800FE Downloaded 101800 bytes from tftp server. Using IP Address 192.168.0.92 = C0A8005C hostname: sun3.example.com domainname: (none) server name '192.168.0.253' root pathname '/raid/shared/sun3' root on 192.168.0.253:/raid/shared/sun3 fstype nfs Boot: vmunix Size: 893160+189568+202104 bytes SunOS Release 4.1.1 (GENERIC) #1: Sat Oct 13 06:05:48 PDT 1990 Copyright (c) 1983-1990, Sun Microsystems, Inc. mem = 24576K (0x1800000) avail mem = 23486464 Ethernet address = 8:0:20:0:4e:bd si0 at obio 0x140000 pri 2 st0 at si0 slave 32 st1 at si0 slave 40 st2 at si0 slave 24 st3 at si0 slave 16 sr0 at si0 slave 48 sd0 at si0 slave 0 sd0: sd1 at si0 slave 1 sd2 at si0 slave 8 sd3 at si0 slave 9 sd4 at si0 slave 16 sd6 at si0 slave 24 zs0 at obio 0x20000 pri 3 zs1 at obio 0x0 pri 3 le0 at obio 0x120000 pri 3 bwtwo0 at obmem 0xff000000 pri 4 bwtwo0: resolution 1152 x 900 hostname: sun3.example.com domainname: (none) root on 192.168.0.253:/raid/shared/sun3 fstype nfs swap on 192.168.0.253:/raid/shared/sun3/swapfile fstype nfs size 65536K dump on 192.168.0.253:/raid/shared/sun3/swapfile fstype nfs size 65512K Can't invoke /sbin/init, error 2 Can't invoke /single/init, error 2 Can't invoke /etc/init, error 2 Can't invoke /bin/init, error 2 init is /usr/etc/init mount: server:/execdir: RPC: Unknown host mount: giving up on: /usr checking filesystems Remount of / failed - check /etc/fstab # ----------------------------------- ******* Unless specified otherwise, the commands from now on will be ******* on the sun3 machine. 10) figure out what kind of hard disk you actually have on the machine and partition it. I had to netboot netbsd to get the cylinders/heads/sectors data since sunos doesn't print that information. Current partition table (unnamed): partition a - starting cyl 0, # blocks 132060 (124/0/0) partition b - starting cyl 125, # blocks 133125 (125/0/0) partition c - starting cyl 0, # blocks 2028825 (1905/0/0) partition d - starting cyl 0, # blocks 0 (0/0/0) partition e - starting cyl 0, # blocks 0 (0/0/0) partition f - starting cyl 0, # blocks 0 (0/0/0) partition g - starting cyl 251, # blocks 1760445 (1653/0/0) partition h - starting cyl 0, # blocks 0 (0/0/0) 11) copy the miniroot to the 'b' partition: dd if=/miniroot_sun3 of=/dev/rsd0b bs=1024 12) setup RSH on server host for remote installation 12a) install the software yum install -y rsh-server 12b) enable the software set 'disable' to 'no' in /etc/xinetd.d/rsh 12c) setup .rhosts and /etc/hosts.equiv echo "192.168.0.92 +" >> /etc/hosts.equiv echo "192.168.0.92" >> /root/.rhosts chmod 600 /root/.rhosts chmod 600 /etc/hosts.equiv 12d) make 'rsh' a secure tty so root can log into it echo "rsh" >> /etc/securetty 12e) restart xinetd /sbin/service xinetd restart 13) create CD image on server for remote installation 13a) create cdrom image directory ($SUN3CD) 13b) create symlink from /usr/etc/install to $SUN3CD 13c) create necessary directories and populate them cd $SUN3CD mkdir -p tar/export/exec/kvm/sun3_sunos_4_1_1 cd tar/export/exec/kvm/sun3_sunos_4_1_1 gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_kvm.tar.Z > kvm cp $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/miniroot_sun3 . gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_sys.tar.Z > sys cp $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/SunOS411.sun3.CDROM.xdrtoc xdrtoc cd $SUN3CD/tar/export/exec gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_proto_root.sunos_4_1_1.tar.Z > proto_ro ot_sunos_4_1_1 mkdir -p $SUN3CD/tar/export/exec/sun3_sunos_4_1_1 cd $SUN3CD/tar/export/exec/sun3_sunos_4_1_1 gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_debugging.tar.Z > debugging gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_demo.tar.Z > demo gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_games.tar.Z > games gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_graphics.tar.Z > graphics gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_install.tar.Z > install gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_networking.tar.Z > networking gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_openwindows_demo.tar.Z > openwindows_de mo gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_openwindows_fonts.tar.Z > openwindows_f onts gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_openwindows_programmers.tar.Z > openwin dows_programmers gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_openwindows_users.tar.Z > openwindows_u sers gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_rfs.tar.Z > rfs gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_security.tar.Z > security gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_shlib_custom.tar.Z > shlib_custom gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_sunview_demo.tar.Z > sunview_demo gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_sunview_programmers.tar.Z > sunview_pro grammers gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_sunview_users.tar.Z > sunview_users gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_system_v.tar.Z > system_v gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_text.tar.Z > text gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_tli.tar.Z > tli gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_user_diag.tar.Z > user_diag gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_usr.tar.Z > usr gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_uucp.tar.Z > uucp gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_versatec.tar.Z > versatec mkdir -p $SUN3CD/tar/export/share/sunos_4_1_1 cd $SUN3CD/tar/export/share/sunos_4_1_1 gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_manual.tar.Z > manual mkdir -p $SUN3CD/tar/patches/sunos_4_1_1 cd $SUN3CD/tar/patches/sunos_4_1_1 gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_patch_cplusplus_2_0.tar.Z > patch_cplus plus_2_0 gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_patch_ipc.tar.Z > patch_ipc gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_patch_taac.tar.Z > patch_taac cd $SUN3CD echo sun3.sun3.sunos.4.1.1 >avail_arches 14) boot into the miniroot sync sync sync halt b sd(0,0,1) -sw 15) neat. Now I'm in the miniroot! Start install: suninstall 2 (custom) 4 (other) vt100 [select timezone] [accept bogus time] [setup network] [use existing label, mountpoints for / and /usr] [software from: sr0, remote, mediahost = "server", address = 192.168.0.253, all software, /usr, /usr/kvm] [marvel at the list of software!] [start the installation] 16) reboot into your fancy sunos 4.1.1 installation b sd() ** root has no password! ** 17) update to 4.1.1U1 * gunzip $SUN3ARC/Sun-Patches/Sun_4.1.1U1.tar.gz on a linux box * copy the tarball to the sun3 * extract the tarball in /var/tmp taperw -- tape extraction tool tapeu1.01 -- copyright file tapeu1.02 -- tarball of installer tapeu1.03 -- data tarball tapeu1.04 -- data tarball sun3 tapeu1.05 -- data tarball sun3x tapeu1.06 -- copyright file * put things where they belong and install cd /var/tmp mkdir unbundled cd unbundled tar -xf ../tapeu1.02 cd .. mkdir bin cd bin cp ../tapeu1.03 tar.2 cp ../tapeu1.04 tar.3 cp ../tapeu1.05 tar.4 cd .. shutdown now # go to single user mode cd /var/tmp/unbundled ./install_unbundled -m/var/tmp 18) install the y2kpatch from www.sun3arc.org/Misc-Patches From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sun Sep 4 19:39:07 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 17:39:07 -0700 Subject: TI CD 1400 Drive [for sale / offers] In-Reply-To: <2EB91C88-0B94-43A0-82D5-7161B8443917@gmail.com> References: <2EB91C88-0B94-43A0-82D5-7161B8443917@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > I need to get rid of this drive. ?I don't have the TI990 computer for it anymore. > If I don't get any offers in the next couple of days I'm going to scrap it out (that said - this is not free). > It's a TI CD 1400 branded drive. ?Magnetic Peripherals 944B drive. > The unit weighs 175 pounds so it puts out of the standard shipping range. > Please send any offers off list. ?Drive is located in Port Huron, Michigan. > > Rob > > pics at > > http://tinyurl.com/3hdv62b This is a Magnetic Peripherals, Inc. MPI 9448 cartridge drive, useful on many systems, not just the Texas Instrument 990. It should be saved. Pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Sep 4 20:56:57 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 18:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 Model II Digging In-Reply-To: <4E612BC7.6000909@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: <1315187817.79970.YahooMailClassic@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I don't mean to state the obvious, but make sure this diskette is not upside down. --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Nathan Pralle wrote: > From: Nathan Pralle > Subject: TRS-80 Model II Digging > To: "cctalk" > Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 12:17 PM > Finally pulled out the TRS-80 Model > II tonight with the intention of actually working on it for > once (shocker!) and trying to get it operational. > > It powers up, drive spins, screen comes on, lights glow, > etc.? ? Insert any one of about 20 8" floppies > that I have that are specifically for the Model Ii and..... > > Nothing.? ? Well.? ? BOOT ERROR RS, > which is translated as, "Disk not in RadioShack format." > > I'd believe it for one or two, but all of > them????It seems unlikely, although I could > blame bit-rot perhaps.???I'm hoping it has > something to do with the hardware instead. > > Popping it open, the unit powers on and the drive head is > dropped to the spinning disk, then lifted, then dropped, > then lifted, and the error occurs.???I cannot > see if the head is close enough to the disk or not (and I > have *no* idea of the tolerances anyway) and am not sure how > I'd adjust it -- or drive speed, etc. if that's an issue. > > So, anyone got ideas?? ? There *is* a remote > possibility that all the disks I got were wiped either by > the previous owner or in some sort of magnetic disaster, but > they're well-labeled and came from a working haul, so I have > to imagine that they're still good.???Or at > least, I'm hoping they are.? (The bits are damned near > visible on these things, after all.) > > Your ideas and good guesses welcome and very much > appreciated. > > Nathan > -- *Nathan E. Pralle* > Computer Geek > www.nathanpralle.com > www.philosyphia.com > www.twitter.com/NPralle > > From jws at jwsss.com Sun Sep 4 21:17:19 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 19:17:19 -0700 Subject: Train shipping ( was Re: VT fixums ) In-Reply-To: <4E63E78F.6010907@philpem.me.uk> References: <4E63E78F.6010907@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4E64312F.8060203@jwsss.com> > On 30/08/11 20:36, Tony Duell wrote: >> I havre no idea waht the official restrictuions are, but I've carried >> the >> following on British trains (on serparate occasions) : > I have a second hand story. Bill (I think) Scripps who was well known (and may still be) at the TRW swap meet was telling of his experience of having no transportatation one time, and needing to go to an auction of Rocketdyne stuff. He purchased two Atlas rocket verniers, and still had not ride, and had to figure out what to do, as the purchases had to be off property that day (a saturday). He took them out of their shipping containers and proceeded to go back from the north end of the San Fernando valley to I think Santa Monica. He had one on the floor, and one in his lap. As he was riding the driver was giving him the eye, and he figured he'd get booted or arrested before arriving home. After the bus emptied out, the driver came back to him and told him he had been on the design team for those engines before being laid off by Rocketdyne. I'd really like to see his stash, he had some really rare hardware of similar nature. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Sep 4 23:18:31 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 00:18:31 -0400 Subject: Macintosh Programmers' Workshop - Fwd: MPW turns 25! Message-ID: <4E644D97.7030205@telegraphics.com.au> Some ccmp listers will have fond memories of MPW. I know I do. Still runnable on my PPC G4! (OS X 10.4) & I still occasionally need to build with it. --Toby -------- Original Message -------- Subject: MPW turns 25! Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 21:55:05 -0600 From: Dan Allen To: development MPW Today, September 4th, in 1986, we completed MPW 1.0, 25 years ago! I just thought we should note the occasion. Dan Allen _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. MPW-Dev mailing list (MPW-Dev at lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/mpw-dev/toby%40telegraphics.com.au This email sent to toby at telegraphics.com.au From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 5 00:26:49 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 22:26:49 -0700 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <4E640CA1.4080800@verizon.net> References: <4E63DFEC.80302@verizon.net> <4E63EE5A.20709@brouhaha.com> <4E640CA1.4080800@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E645D99.20704@brouhaha.com> allison wrote: > While thats true if DEC was not consuming them NS would have gotten > out of that part and its friends. Given that National didn't EOL them until 1998, and the DS8641 and DS3662 not until 1999, I don't think that's true. There must have been other users. National had app notes for them pushing general-purpose use, with nary a word about DEC.. If DEC hadn't been consuming them, they might have gone away sooner. The non-DEC uses lasted longer, but all the things that those were used for eventually got replaced by more modern signalling standards. From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Sep 5 00:56:11 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 22:56:11 -0700 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> Message-ID: One of our goals is to ensure that for the foreseeable future, "the hunt" will still exist. One of my non-techie friends says that what we're doing makes an important difference because more people will realize that the old accounting system that's been taking up room in the back of the warehouse may be worth more than metal scrap, that there is a real market for vintage systems. Maybe this means that someone who might have gotten a system for free, just for hauling it away, will now have to offer some sort of payment - sorry, and I can sympathize because some of the machines in my personal collection came from just that sort of "please take it away" situation. But we still acquire machines gratis, simply because someone cares about it and doesn't want to send it to the smelter (even though we then pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to ship it!), so I don't think the days of glory are altogether behind us. If anything, it's been the eBay feeding frenzy that's contributed to horrendous pricing - but this too shall almost certainly pass, and valuations will become more rational. Hope springs eternal.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Wilson [james at machineroom.info] Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 12:15 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer On 25/08/2011 06:39, J Blaser < wrote: > From today's (August 24) Wall Street Journal front page: > > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.html?mod=WSJ_Ahed_AutomatedTypes > > > Written as a bit of a puff piece, but interesting nonetheless, given > the national reach of the WSJ. It might (though I doubt it) spur a > few Wall Street types to take a keener interest in retro gear, making > things dearer and harder for us homie hobbyists to acquire. :) > > Kudo's to Ian (King) and Rich (Alderson), et al. > > -- Jared > > But that takes away what, for me anyway, is one of the most fun aspects of this hobby - the hunt! From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 5 08:24:19 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 06:24:19 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> On 9/4/11 10:56 PM, Ian King wrote: > more people will realize that the old accounting system that's been taking up room in the back > of the warehouse may be worth more than metal scrap With gold over $1000/oz, has anyone figured out what the real scrap value of something like a 7090 or 360 currently is for the copper and precious metals? That is what you're fighting against, and it has been the same since the 70's. If anyone notices the amount of copper and gold in an old box in the back room, it is gone. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 08:43:07 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 09:43:07 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > With gold over $1000/oz, has anyone figured out what the real scrap value of > something like a 7090 > or 360 currently is for the copper and precious metals? > > That is what you're fighting against, and it has been the same since the > 70's. > > If anyone notices the amount of copper and gold in an old box in the back > room, it is gone. I would say it depends on the business that owns the machine. The relatively small value of a S/360 model 22 to an independent old-time service bureau might be worth more than the monster value of a 3033 to a good sized bank. -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Sep 5 09:46:08 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 07:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <4E640006.5070506@philpem.me.uk> References: <4E63C6E2.4010101@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 4, 11 07:43:46 pm, <4E637FBB.22673.10C02E6@cclist.sydex.com> <4E640006.5070506@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Sep 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 04/09/11 21:40, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Is solid CO2 considered a hazardous substance in the UK? You can get >> it in just about any medium-sized city in the US, usually sold by >> "ice companies". Can one buy acetone in the UK, or is that also on >> the proscribed list? > > Your "friendly neighbourhood hardware store" won't sell it to you, and > neither will the chemists.... but that's what eBay is for :) > > You can get everything you need to kickstart a cupric chloride etch tank from > ebay -- that's basically concrete cleaner (hydrochloric acid), high-strength > hyrdogen peroxide, and a lump or two of scrap copper. > > Dry ice... that's a little harder. That's sad. My local Fred Meyer (a US based chain of grocery stores) has what nearly amounts to a vending machine for the stuff. You tell the clerk how much you want and they go get it for you - it's locked to keep some precious snowflake from reaching into the cooler and grabbing a piece with a bare hand. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Sep 5 10:19:46 2011 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 10:19:46 -0500 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E64E892.8020908@brutman.com> On 8/12/2011 8:03 PM, steven stengel wrote: > Hi, > I run the website http://oldcomputers.net > I get a lot of old computer systems offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't want - too big, or too far away to pay shipping. > > A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to these orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! > > But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is covered pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no one until the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about it. > > Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get you some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). > > Thanks- > Steven Stengel > http://oldcomputers.net > > > > Steve, I'm a little late in replying but here I am ... Name: Michael Brutman Interest: PCjrs Secondary Interests: Classic IBM gear (PC, XT, AT, etc.) and Networking (mTCP) Location: Rochester, MN - Southestern MN I run the best PCjr web site and forum in the world, and have for over 10 years now: http://www.brutman.com/PCjr . Part of the mission is finding homes for abandoned machines .. And if anybody needs PCjr help or mTCP help, send them along ... Regards, Mike From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 5 11:14:41 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 09:14:41 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2011 at 9:43, William Donzelli wrote: > I would say it depends on the business that owns the machine. The > relatively small value of a S/360 model 22 to an independent old-time > service bureau might be worth more than the monster value of a 3033 to > a good sized bank. There are things that make me think that a lot of this gold/copper rush is pure speculation. Consider, for example, rhodium. Selling at about $10K per ounce in 2008, it took a drop to $2K when the market tanked, and is essentially still there. It hasn't mirrored gold at all. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Sep 5 11:39:04 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 12:39:04 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/09/11 12:14 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Sep 2011 at 9:43, William Donzelli wrote: > >> I would say it depends on the business that owns the machine. The >> relatively small value of a S/360 model 22 to an independent old-time >> service bureau might be worth more than the monster value of a 3033 to >> a good sized bank. > > There are things that make me think that a lot of this gold/copper > rush is pure speculation. Of course. But the rise in commodities prices driven by China (copper is a good example) is real, and changes people's behaviour. Theft of copper and other metals is more commonplace than it was. People get electrocuted frequently while trying to steal live wires. And this is a sign of the times: http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2009/may/17/henry-moore-sculpture-theft-reclining-figure --Toby > > Consider, for example, rhodium. Selling at about $10K per ounce in > 2008, it took a drop to $2K when the market tanked, and is > essentially still there. It hasn't mirrored gold at all. > > --Chuck > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Sep 5 11:40:00 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 09:40:00 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <4E63B257.4060209@brouhaha.com> References: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> <4E63B257.4060209@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201109050940.00722.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday, September 04, 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > > I got a Data I/O 2900 programmer with the (44? 48? It hasn't > arrived here yet) > > programming bed. How good is this programmer, compared to newer toys > like the Vellom > > VP280? It seems to program older devices that the VP280 doesn't program. > > The 2900/3900/3980 are cost-reduced versions of the Unisite, which was > one of the best universal programmers. The main drawbacks of these are: > > 1) The interface to a host computer is very slow > a) transferring files using the floppy drive is slow, partially > due to sector interleave > issue > b) serial interface is slow (9600bps) unless you use their > proprietary "Hiterm" Windows > software (115,200 bps). There is no way to use 115,200 bps > with a normal > terminal or terminal emulator, because Hiterm uses a > proprietary protocol. > c) fastest transfer is with parallel cable ("Xpi"), might not be > available on 2900? > requires their proprietary Hiterm Windows software. > the programmer end hardware of the parallel interface has been > reverse-engineered, > so you might be able to build it yourself. I have two Data IO 3980s and use one regularly to program vintage DEC and HP EPROMS. Fortunately, over the years I've been able to pick up a couple of dozen or more of the various adapters. I've found them when folks are selling "lots" (pallets, boxes, etc.) of "stuff" and not as individual Data IO items... It's a very solid programing system - and as Eric suggested, using Hiterm is the smart way to go. > 3) They are no longer supported, so they won't program parts introduced > in the last few years You can get excellent Data IO support from the Data IO user group on Yahoo: Data_IO_EPROM at yahoogroups.com Lots of knowledgeable and helpful folks on that list. > I wouldn't use these for programming recent parts, but they're great for > programming older parts. > > I'm not sure how device support on the 29xx/39xx compares to Unisite, > but the only old programmable devices I've found that the Unisite > doesn't support are the first generation EPROMs (1702, 1702a, 5203, > 5204), due to these needed rather extreme programming voltages (e.g., > -40V to -50V) on many pins (not just one program pulse pin). The > Unisite does support most bipolar PROMs, while most modern programmers > do not. > > > Also, where can I find the PLCC/SOIC/etc programming beds for it? > > For a cheap price, of course :o) > > Data I/O and "cheap price" are rarely mentioned together. Except as I suggested above concerning "lots". Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Sep 5 11:43:13 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 12:43:13 -0400 Subject: DEC PWS 500au boot failure Message-ID: <1315240993.31620.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> Hey all! I went to fire up my DEC Personal Workstation 500au the other day and it doesn't boot up any more :( I don't get anything out of video or the serial console and the diagnostic lights all go out (00) rather than displaying an error or booting message. The battery in it was dead and I replaced it but to no avail. Anybody come across this before and know how to fix it? Thanks! Brian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 11:47:07 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 12:47:07 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > There are things that make me think that a lot of this gold/copper > rush is pure speculation. The gold market and copper market are only slightly related. Gold moves almost purely for economic reasons, but copper moves for more industrial reasons. > Consider, for example, rhodium. ?Selling at about $10K per ounce in > 2008, it took a drop to $2K when the market tanked, and is > essentially still there. ?It hasn't mirrored gold at all. Rhodium is in its own little world. There just are not all that many rhodium investors. -- Will From a50mhzham at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 12:08:21 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 12:08:21 -0500 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e650361.a39dec0a.4519.26d0@mx.google.com> At 06:16 PM 9/4/2011, you wrote: >I have a pair of Olivetti Underwood 288s (10-key >7 digit input, 8 digit output adding machines), >one of which I got from list member Patrick >Finnegan a couple of years ago, and one which I >found in a local thrift store this summer. >Finding the second one inspired me to try to get >them working... and I am rather out of my depth. I worked for an office equipment store back in the 80's. They had a concrete laundry tub filled with kerosene or some similar solvent, with some metal racks in them. Any major repairs to typewriters or mechanical calculators was proceeded by a dunk in the solvent, perhaps over night. I think they used the other half of the sink for a second dunk. Might have been more kerosene or maybe kerosene with a small amount of light machine oil dissolved in it. They only dunked the metal parts. I'm not sure if the removed each plastic key first or not-- maybe they did. The two guys that did this stuff, Joe and Carlos, were really good at what they did. They were also both 60-something, and are probably gone from this earth by now. Too bad; my boss was a crook but these two guys were the salt of the earth, and were a pleasure to work with. -T 811 . [Voting] The margin is narrow, but the responsibility is clear. NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Sep 5 12:23:15 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:23:15 -0400 Subject: Need switch settings for... Message-ID: <0bd501cc6bf0$7faf74f0$7f0e5ed0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> the Gimix 16K memory board for the SS-50 bus. Unlike the 32K card, there doesn't seem to be a lot of rhyme or reason to this one. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 5 12:27:13 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 10:27:13 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E64A401.21477.491D97@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2011 at 12:47, William Donzelli wrote: > The gold market and copper market are only slightly related. Gold > moves almost purely for economic reasons, but copper moves for more > industrial reasons. That's what one would believe, but the truth apparently is stranger. The Beeb did a documentary on commodities earlier this year. Here's the audio for the one on copper: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00gvpjb --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 5 12:51:08 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 10:51:08 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E650C0C.5060803@jwsss.com> > On 9/4/11 10:56 PM, Ian King wrote: >> more people will realize that the old accounting system that's been >> taking up room in the back > > of the warehouse may be worth more than metal scrap > > With gold over $1000/oz, has anyone figured out what the real scrap > value of something like a 7090 > or 360 currently is for the copper and precious metals? > > That is what you're fighting against, and it has been the same since > the 70's. > > If anyone notices the amount of copper and gold in an old box in the > back room, it is gone. In the late 70's I lost an HP 2116 to silver and gold value. They wanted and got $3000 for it for metal scrap alone. The main values supposedly was in silver. I was told that 360's had more silver in them than gold, and it is now near or at an all time high value as well. I also was told that University of Missouri, Rolla's 360/50 went for around 25,000 in the early 80's for scrap. They were given 4341's by IBM to replace the /50, later upgraded by IBM at their cost. UMR had purchased the 360/50 in an unusual early buy in 1969 or 1970, when the usual procedure was to lease. University of Missouri, Columbia had a 370/158 at the time, don't know if it was owned, but most likely was as well. There was a service company, Sorbus which merged with another large service company, Braeden in the early 80's again who had a 360/40 for test purposes in Anaheim, CA. I'm not sure what happened to it. They were in bankruptcy, and I tried to obtain this machine, but never could find someone who would release it for sale. someone in the organization hopefully saved it, as that was the hangup, it was held for someone else to buy from the estate. Jim From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 5 12:59:09 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 10:59:09 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> > On 9/4/11 10:56 PM, Ian King wrote: >> more people will realize that the old accounting system that's been >> taking up room in the back > > of the warehouse may be worth more than metal scrap > > With gold over $1000/oz, has anyone figured out what the real scrap > value of something like a 7090 > or 360 currently is for the copper and precious metals? > > That is what you're fighting against, and it has been the same since > the 70's. > > If anyone notices the amount of copper and gold in an old box in the > back room, it is gone. This fleabay auction, 270808374360 claims to have backplane parts for palladium metal scrap value, by the way, someone else mentioned rhodium, who knows what else in the parts as well. With gold as the leading metal these days if someone gets hold of it the cheapest scrapping process is cyanide for gold, and I doubt that the other rare earths and metals are looked for. They are pretty tricky to pull out of the mess that remains after a cyanide high grading process w/o killing ones' self. A lot of the ones I knew had places "somewhere" which they went with their scrap, and they powdered the material and did the process. I suspect the residue cyanide was and is dumped near that spot. If one tries that in a legal method, I don't know if you'd make any money after you pay the costs of doing it in such a way as not to kill yourself, and legally dispose of the residue. We cleaned a lab in Newport Beach legally (where one list member works) and for about 15# of alcohol and acids it cost around $4500 for the disposal. Each 55 gallon drum disposal was around $500 for low grade stuff (material which was not things you could dump down the sink, but could put in a disposal drum and not kill people). obviously people extract gold value, but I always found that those who did so to be pretty slimy folk (the actual metal extraction people). Walked funny and talked with a slur, and worried about black helicopters following them. Jim From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 13:02:16 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 14:02:16 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E64A401.21477.491D97@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64A401.21477.491D97@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > That's what one would believe, but the truth apparently is stranger. > The Beeb did a documentary on commodities earlier this year. ?Here's > the audio for the one on copper: Nothing in that audio clip is a shock. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 5 13:07:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 14:07:55 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64A401.21477.491D97@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E650FFB.8000405@neurotica.com> On 09/05/2011 02:02 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> That's what one would believe, but the truth apparently is stranger. >> The Beeb did a documentary on commodities earlier this year. Here's >> the audio for the one on copper: > > Nothing in that audio clip is a shock. *snicker* -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 13:12:53 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 14:12:53 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E650C0C.5060803@jwsss.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650C0C.5060803@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > In the late 70's I lost an HP 2116 to silver and gold value. ?They wanted > and got $3000 for it for metal scrap alone. ?The main values supposedly was > in silver. That sounds far too high. The buyer probably had a reseller in mind. Sure, HP stuff of the era has lots of gold (the boards generally are completely plated in it), but not a *pound* of the stuff. HP2116s are just not that big. > I also was told that University of Missouri, Rolla's 360/50 went for around > 25,000 in the early 80's for scrap. For a whole installation - a really big one - perhaps in that ballpark. Back in those days a scrapper I knew told me a good sized mainframe installation would get him about $10K, little ones a couple thousand. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 5 13:13:34 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 14:13:34 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> On 09/05/2011 12:39 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Of course. But the rise in commodities prices driven by China (copper is > a good example) is real, and changes people's behaviour. Theft of copper > and other metals is more commonplace than it was. People get > electrocuted frequently while trying to steal live wires. Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin. In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff the freon while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough. And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either. Dirtbags. They're almost as bad as suits. Almost. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 5 13:19:04 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 11:19:04 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E650C0C.5060803@jwsss.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E650C0C.5060803@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E64B028.931.7896E9@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2011 at 10:51, jim s wrote: > I was told that 360's had more silver in them than gold, and it is now > near or at an all time high value as well. And I'm certain that people said that this was normal market fluctuation and not speculation. Why, just ask Nelson Bunker Hunt and his brother William. Silver Thursday apparently never happened... --Chuck From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 13:25:13 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 14:25:13 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: There's an excellent NPR podcast about economics called Planet Money. They did a great show on why gold is the de-facto universal currency. They break down the requirements and needs of a currency and, accounting for stability, toxicity, availability, portability, and overall ease of collection and processing - you are left off with only a few available metals. Gold is one of them, along with silver, palladium, and the other metals usually used as a store of value, coincidentally enough. From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 5 13:35:43 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 11:35:43 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650C0C.5060803@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E65167F.7040202@jwsss.com> >> In the late 70's I lost an HP 2116 to silver and gold value. They wanted >> and got $3000 for it for metal scrap alone. The main values supposedly was >> in silver. > That sounds far too high. The buyer probably had a reseller in mind. > Sure, HP stuff of the era has lots of gold (the boards generally are > completely plated in it), but not a *pound* of the stuff. HP2116s are > just not that big. > both the 360 / 50 and the 2116 were very large units. the /50 had 1.5mb of memory added along with other options. the 2116 had an expansion unit. As I said both values were hearsay, but were in response to inquiries to buy the units. I simply didn't have the resources then to think about it, which is sad. both would still be around. >> I also was told that University of Missouri, Rolla's 360/50 went for around >> 25,000 in the early 80's for scrap. > For a whole installation - a really big one - perhaps in that > ballpark. Back in those days a scrapper I knew told me a good sized > mainframe installation would get him about $10K, little ones a couple > thousand. > > -- > Will > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 14:02:04 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 15:02:04 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E65167F.7040202@jwsss.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650C0C.5060803@jwsss.com> <4E65167F.7040202@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > both the 360 / 50 and the 2116 were very large units. ?the /50 had 1.5mb of > memory added along with other options. Yes, model 50 installations could fill an entire big room or two. But a big 2116? Four or five standard HP racks, if it were tricked out with the entire shooting match? Still sounds high for pure scrap value. > the 2116 had an expansion unit. ?As I said both values were hearsay, but > were in response to inquiries to buy the units. ?I simply didn't have the > resources then to think about it, which is sad. ?both would still be around. Yes, been there too. And sometimes people quote big money for an item just to scare people away. At the last MIT fest, I quoted one of the audio guys $800 for my Scott 340B, just because I did not want him around my table. It worked. -- Will From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Sep 5 14:43:59 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 15:43:59 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E65267F.3070200@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/09/11 2:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/05/2011 12:39 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Of course. But the rise in commodities prices driven by China (copper is >> a good example) is real, and changes people's behaviour. Theft of copper >> and other metals is more commonplace than it was. People get >> electrocuted frequently while trying to steal live wires. > > Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin. > They're the lucky ones. The rest of us live on to deal with the circumstances that lead people to think this is a good idea... > In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living > room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go outside > and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper coils in > the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff the freon > while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for the rest of > us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough. > > And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either. > > Dirtbags. They're almost as bad as suits. Sounds a bit like blaming the victim, Dave. --T > > Almost. > > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 5 15:04:58 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 16:04:58 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E65267F.3070200@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> <4E65267F.3070200@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E652B6A.30207@neurotica.com> On 09/05/2011 03:43 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living >> room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go outside >> and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper coils in >> the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff the freon >> while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for the rest of >> us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough. >> >> And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either. >> >> Dirtbags. They're almost as bad as suits. > > Sounds a bit like blaming the victim, Dave. The dirtbag who huffs someone's freon and then steals the coils is a "victim"? Of what, exactly? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Sep 5 14:59:21 2011 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 14:59:21 -0500 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E652A19.8050105@brutman.com> You might want to talk to somebody who repairs electric typewriters. My Selectric II was also suffering from lube that had congealed during years of disuse. It is a fairly standard procedure to remove the old lubricant from the mechanical parts to get them free and working again. Anybody that repairs electric typewriters should have some ideas on how to handle your adding machines. Mike From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Sep 5 15:23:56 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:23:56 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> Message-ID: On 9/4/11 9:14 AM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: > > Sirs, > > I got a Data I/O 2900 programmer with the (44? 48? It hasn't arrived > here yet) programming bed. How good is this programmer, compared to newer > toys like the Vellom VP280? It seems to program older devices that the VP280 > doesn't program. Also, where can I find the PLCC/SOIC/etc programming beds > for it? For a cheap price, of course :o) > > Thanks > Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br You need to subscribe to the data IO eprom programmer group on yahoogroups. One of the members there has reverse engineered the MSM (Mass Storage Module) which also includes a parallel port for fast communication between PC and Programmer. It also allows a laptop hard drive or IDE-CF/SD adapter to be used so you can boot off internal storage instead of floppy. From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Sep 5 15:29:18 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:29:18 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <1F396EF76C7849568CF73FE8A4008D36@portajara> Message-ID: On 9/4/11 10:36 AM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: -snip- > >> Data I/O and "cheap price" are rarely mentioned together. > > :oO I could never imagine that. Why are they so expensive? I found just > ONE (ah, a pair, ok) 2900 on ebay for - gasp - $1100 EACH. What does it has > to be so expensive? :oO > > The majority of dataIO programmers that are still in use are used by businesses (supposedly) so the companies that market old dataIO parts, they are marketing towards businesses that are 'locked in' to a particular solution. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Sep 5 15:38:00 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 16:38:00 -0400 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> References: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E653328.8070107@telegraphics.com.au> On 20/08/11 8:53 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I would like to find out the original prices of some of the DEC equipment I > have when it first came out, preferably the UK prices. I only have a couple > of catalogues but they don't cover all the things I am interested in. If > anyone has catalogues and could scan the pages with prices and options etc > that would be great. The equipment I am interested in are: > > MicroVAX II > MicroVAX 2000 > MicroVAX 3100 (Models 30, 40, 80, 95) > VAXstation 4000 VLC > VAXstation 4000 Model 60 > MicroVAX 3400 > PDP11/24 > VT220 > VT420 > LA50 > Alpha 433au > DEC 2000 Model 300 AXP > DEC Professional 350 > For the record, I just found this in a box: DEC of Canada Limited, Canadian Price List (173pp) Authorized Distributor Group Price List Q3 FY 88 Effective January 18, 1988 I'm guessing the VAXes on your list would have been current at that time, more or less. I don't really have time to compile the prices right now, but let me know if it's important to you. --Toby > Thanks > > Rob > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 5 16:14:26 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 14:14:26 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E652B6A.30207@neurotica.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E65267F.3070200@telegraphics.com.au>, <4E652B6A.30207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E64D942.1227.1192747@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2011 at 16:04, Dave McGuire wrote: > The dirtbag who huffs someone's freon and then steals the coils is a > "victim"? Of what, exactly? Probably of his own misdeeds. Permanent brain damage is a frequent companion of "huffing". --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 5 16:20:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 17:20:20 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E64D942.1227.1192747@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E65267F.3070200@telegraphics.com.au>, <4E652B6A.30207@neurotica.com> <4E64D942.1227.1192747@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E653D14.6080802@neurotica.com> On 09/05/2011 05:14 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The dirtbag who huffs someone's freon and then steals the coils is a >> "victim"? Of what, exactly? > > Probably of his own misdeeds. Permanent brain damage is a frequent > companion of "huffing". Something has to bootstrap the process, and people need to take responsibility for their actions. Oh wait, what am I saying! This is America, where we don't have to do that! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 5 16:20:26 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 22:20:26 +0100 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: <4e650361.a39dec0a.4519.26d0@mx.google.com> References: <4e650361.a39dec0a.4519.26d0@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4E653D1A.2080905@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/09/2011 18:08, Tom wrote: > I worked for an office equipment store back in the 80's. They had a > concrete laundry tub filled with kerosene or some similar solvent, with > some metal racks in them. Any major repairs to typewriters or mechanical > calculators was proceeded by a dunk in the solvent, perhaps over night. > I think they used the other half of the sink for a second dunk. Might > have been more kerosene or maybe kerosene with a small amount of light > machine oil dissolved in it. They only dunked the metal parts. I'm not > sure if the removed each plastic key first or not-- maybe they did. I've been thinking along those lines for my ASR33. It's got a lot of old sticky lubricant all over the typing unit, and I heard recently of one that was dunked. Mine doesn't always work reliably when it's cold, but usually is OK after running for a while and has warmed up. What do people think about that? My feeling is it wants a good clean and a proper re-lubrication, and cleaning would be easiest by the "dunk". Obviously a lot of electrical or plastic parts want taken off first (the motor, for example!). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Sep 5 16:28:02 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 14:28:02 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E653EE2.2000906@mail.msu.edu> On 9/5/2011 11:13 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin. > > In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's > living room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You > go outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the > copper coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They > often huff the freon while they're at it, according to the cops. > Fortunately for the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not > often enough. > > And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either. Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate when they don't die as a result*. You must be a real hit at parties. Josh > > Dirtbags. They're almost as bad as suits. > > Almost. > > -Dave > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 5 15:21:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 21:21:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Train shipping ( was Re: VT fixums ) In-Reply-To: <4E5FDC30.4080303@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Sep 1, 11 09:25:36 pm Message-ID: > > An AR88 (RCA communcations receiver) > You *carried* an AR88 on a train??? They weigh, what, 45 kgs? You must Well, I didn't hold it for the netire journey, if that's what you mean. It sat on the luggage rack between Bristol and London... > work out a lot... I am insulted! I have spent my entire life avoiding exercise, and I don't intend changing that. I have never done any uncnessary exercise. The only 'working out' I do is how to fix classic computers (etc), how to design bits of electronics, and so on. > I used to have a BC-312M. I really regret having got rid of it. That was > a nice piece of equipment.Not quite as heavy as the AR88 but quite heavy > enough to break your foot if you dropped it on one of them. The foot > would be severely damaged but not the BC-312M... And that's the way it should be. You foot will mend itself, the receiver will not -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 5 15:07:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 21:07:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Difficulties of digital preservation - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: from "Doug Jackson" at Aug 29, 11 12:52:56 pm Message-ID: > My archival yardstick is my copy of "The Womens Journal' that I have on my > book shelf from 1820, and to compare, even a text editor to that..... That's even older than the oldest book I own (a book on electric bellsdating from 1892). I have several books on electrical subjects that are over 100 years old :-) -tony From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Sep 5 16:36:05 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 21:36:05 +0000 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E653EE2.2000906@mail.msu.edu> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com><4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com><4E653EE2.2000906@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <1349870474-1315258561-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1444198602-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> Those are real big words coming from a guy who still has a working air conditioner. -----Original Message----- From: Josh Dersch Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 14:28:02 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) On 9/5/2011 11:13 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin. > > In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's > living room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You > go outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the > copper coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They > often huff the freon while they're at it, according to the cops. > Fortunately for the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not > often enough. > > And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either. Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate when they don't die as a result*. You must be a real hit at parties. Josh > > Dirtbags. They're almost as bad as suits. > > Almost. > > -Dave > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 5 15:45:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 21:45:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <4E63EE5A.20709@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Sep 4, 11 02:32:10 pm Message-ID: > DEC didn't develop it, National Semiconductor developed it, and sold it > as the DS8837. > > DEC had them binned for slightly tighter receiver threshold and leakage > current specifications, so in principle a DS8837 might not meet the DEC > specifications for a DEC8837. In practice they almost always did, as > National Semiconductor was fairly conservative about the specifications > for the standard part. Another point is that DEC may well have used their tighter-spec parts everywhwre, even where the standard one would do, rather than having 2 different chips (normal and selected) around. Looking at the scheamtics of the board in question, and given that th cables involved are quite short, I think the stnadard part will work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 5 15:50:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 21:50:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <4E63FAF7.5020104@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 4, 11 11:25:59 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/09/11 20:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > Try measuring the thread on the defective one. I am pretty sure it should > > be 6-32 UNC if it's the original part. If it is that thread, then the > > problem is elsewhere. > > It's a completely different part. The HP one has a hex nut head, this > one has a knurled round head, a smaller diameter screw thread and is > much shorter. OK... Sonds like oyu'll have a little bit of turning to do to make the replacemetn. It's not a difficult job... > I've bodged it for now -- by stretching a piece of model aircraft fuel > hose over the HP hub. It works... mostly. The wheel is now a little > oversize, and there obviously isn't a taper. I might try attacking it > with the lathe tomorrow night... Trying to machine eleastomers at normal temperarture with a tool groudn for mtal turning will produce an awful finish (if it does anythign useful at all). Probably worth you trying it so you see what happens, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 5 15:52:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 21:52:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <013c01cc6b51$44db5690$ce9203b0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 4, 11 11:23:25 pm Message-ID: > Your other reply suggests that the DEC 8837 does have an almost equivalent > in the NS DS8837 which I have found a source for. I am unclear if you think > NS devices would do or not? What is the worst that could happen if the NS > part was not up to DEC specifications? The worst? It'll work intermittanylu, giving oy a nasty fault to trace (but you'd have a good idea where to start looking), and maybe even corrupting the disk (if it deselects it halfway through a write operation for example). More likeyu : It won't work at all Very likely : It'll work fine. -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 5 16:24:10 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 22:24:10 +0100 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E653DFA.3010605@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/09/2011 19:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/05/2011 12:39 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Of course. But the rise in commodities prices driven by China (copper is >> a good example) is real, and changes people's behaviour. Theft of copper >> and other metals is more commonplace than it was. People get >> electrocuted frequently while trying to steal live wires. > > Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin. > > In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living > room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go outside > and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper coils in > the condenser unit of your air conditioner. The academic and telecomms communities in the UK have plenty of instances of fibre optic links suddenly going down, and the repair crews finding someone has ripped up "the wires" to sell for scrap. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 5 15:54:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 21:54:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Sep 4, 11 06:59:20 pm Message-ID: > > > Your "friendly neighbourhood hardware store" won't sell it to you, and > > neither will the chemists.... but that's what eBay is for :) > > Quite a few UK grocery stores sell dry ice, as well as some restaurant > supply houses. When was the last time you shopped ina 'UK grocery store', let alone one that had dry ice? I have _never_ seen it on sale over here. > > Me thinks you are not looking very hard... Are you going to provide some useful information, like naming shops that sell it, or is you message going to be content-free as ever? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 5 16:03:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 22:03:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: from "Alexey Toptygin" at Sep 4, 11 11:16:28 pm Message-ID: > I have a pair of Olivetti Underwood 288s (10-key 7 digit input, 8 digit > output adding machines), one of which I got from list member Patrick > Finnegan a couple of years ago, and one which I found in a local thrift > store this summer. Finding the second one inspired me to try to get them > working... and I am rather out of my depth. > > The only electrical part (the AC induction motor that powers the > mechanism) works fine in both, but both have other, mechanical issues. > I've run them some under electrical power and spent a lot more time slowly > turning the mechanism by hand, trying to work out what it's doing. > > Both have 'sticky digits', i.e. the mechanism that both rotates the type > wheels into the correct position during the print part of the cycle and > then is added to the accumulator in the accumulate part of the cycle > doesn't move freely and thus doesn't print and doesn't accumulate the > correct totals. One also has sticky pins in the input register and the > other doesn't seem to carry at all and has a sticky 'leading zero > suppression' mechanism. > > First and foremost, the oil in both machines has congealed into a sticky > mess. I clearly need to replace it, but I have no idea what to replace it > with. I suspect that it's something similar to what's used to lube > typewriters, given that they were built by typewriter companies using > typewriter-inspired mechanisms? THis is a common problem with all old machinery of this type (including typewriters, printers, etc). The correct thing to do IMHO is to strip the thing down and clean all the parts separately. There's a 'butcher's trick' whcih involves removing the motor (and anything else that might be damaged) and dunking th whole thing a in a bath of petrol or simialr. It rrely does much good... > > Second, I have no idea how to take them apart correctly. I've successfully > gotten the covers off, but I can't even get the ribbon holder/winding > assembly off since it's linked to a mechanism that's supposed to lift it > to switch from black to red ink, and I can't find a way to safely > disengage them... I've also tried to remove the platen cylinder, but the > ribbon holder is in the way of the retaining screws. The only other things > I can obviously remove at this point are return springs that hold various > levers/cams in place, but I can't see how that would help me remove > anything behind them, and all of the cams seem to be maually aligned on > their axles, held in the correct position by the same screws that would > need to be removed to take the axles out. Ease of service does not seem to > have been a design goal in these machines :-/ The serive manual would be very useful, but I'll but it's totally unobtainable.... The only thing you can do is 'tread carefully;. My guess, based on simailar machines, is that they will break down into modules, but you may have to remvoe other small parts first. You may have to remveo individau lcams, and they may be adustable (try to mark their postionions bfore taking them off, I guess the service manual would have the adjustment procedure, but if oyu had tht you'd not be asking). > > My inability to disassemble them is doubly problematic since parts of the > mechanism are buried behind so much other stuff that I can't see what > they're doing, and there are parts that I can't seem to get to move using > any combination of front panel inputs... there's one bit that I've found a > way to reset (subtracting) but not a way to set using normal inputs... and Subtracting automatically (that is, not manually) could be part of a division mechanism? > I don't see any way of actuating the ink-color-swithcing mechanism. > > Does anyone have experience with anything similar that would be able to > offer advice? I'd be glad to make photos and my reverse-engineering notes > available... > > They are fascinating machines (the whole accumulator rotates around > backwards to subtract!), but I am afraid of damaging them with my clumsy > attempts at repair. Since I have two, I guess I can muddle along by trial > and error, but I would really love to hear from someone that's worked on a > similar device before. It's almost imposisble to help you without seeign the machines (and I don't mean seeing pictures of them), but I had a mis-spent childhood rpairing things (inclduing doing a full ASR33 strip and rebuild without any manuals). The tricks are to keep notes of what goes where, maybe take photos as you go along(if you have a digital camera), and to keep associated parts togethter (so you know where sprigns go, etc). Don't force anything. My guess it that you're starting in the right place, and that the ribbon drive comes off early on. Are you sure the linkage can't be separated? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 5 15:17:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 21:17:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 Model II Digging In-Reply-To: <4E5F031C.3080501@nathanpralle.com> from "Nathan Pralle" at Aug 31, 11 10:59:24 pm Message-ID: > > Finally pulled out the TRS-80 Model II tonight with the intention of > actually working on it for once (shocker!) and trying to get it operational. > > It powers up, drive spins, screen comes on, lights glow, etc. Insert > any one of about 20 8" floppies that I have that are specifically for > the Model Ii and..... > > Nothing. Well. BOOT ERROR RS, which is translated as, "Disk not in > RadioShack format." > > I'd believe it for one or two, but all of them? It seems unlikely, > although I could blame bit-rot perhaps. I'm hoping it has something to > do with the hardware instead. > > Popping it open, the unit powers on and the drive head is dropped to the > spinning disk, then lifted, then dropped, then lifted, and the error > occurs. I cannot see if the head is close enough to the disk or not > (and I have *no* idea of the tolerances anyway) and am not sure how I'd > adjust it -- or drive speed, etc. if that's an issue. Most 8" drives used AC motors, the speed is set by the frequency of the power line, and is therefore not something that will drift. A few 8" drives had electronically-controlled DC motors (ofteh running from a 24V supply), which can need adjustment. It should be fairly obvious which yours is. In any case, don't adjust anything until you have a clear idea what the problem is!. > > So, anyone got ideas? There *is* a remote possibility that all the > disks I got were wiped either by the previous owner or in some sort of > magnetic disaster, but they're well-labeled and came from a working > haul, so I have to imagine that they're still good. Or at least, I'm > hoping they are. (The bits are damned near visible on these things, > after all.) > > Your ideas and good guesses welcome and very much appreciated. I dont; know if they're on-line anywhere,. but Radio Shack publised excellent Technical Reference and service manuals for theis computers. If you cna gt them, read them :-) Some wild guesses of things to check : Power supply rails for voltage _and ripple_. It's possible some voltages are onlyused by the disk cotnroller and/or drive, so the machine may appear to work (other than failing to boot with a disk error) if these are missing/noisy Drive head, index sesnor, track 0 sesort dirty Red data separator PLL not locking. Radio Shack often used analogue PLL circuits in their data sepaaraotrs. It's posssible this has drifted out of tolerance. Don't twiddle anything without the manual though Drive heads out of alignement (but why?) IC failure. I've had a fair number of Western Digital disk controller ICs fail over the years. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 5 15:27:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 21:27:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: from "SPC" at Sep 4, 11 03:33:58 pm Message-ID: > > Just curious. Can I use one HP7475A HP-IB with one Oscilloscope which > claims compatibility with the HP7470 (GP-IB) ? My guess is 'yes', and it won;t do any harm to try it. HPIB and GPIB are the same inteface, at least at the hardware level. So you won't damage anything by plugging it in. Both of those plotters use the HPGL comamnd set. It's possible that your 'scope uses a command presnet in the 7470 and not the 7475, but I think it's unlikely. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 5 15:35:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 21:35:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <010c01cc6b46$8c92dea0$a5b89be0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 4, 11 10:06:41 pm Message-ID: > The PDF of the printset came from here: > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP02259_RQDX3_schem_Oct85.pdf > > Look at p12 for the M5098, the component that is not working is E1, > specifically pin 3 is high and pin 4 is high, but pin 1 is high and pin 2 is > low. Thanks, I'ev now looked at it. I understnad what it does.Looks like a National DS8837 would work fine. I think a Signetics/Philips 8T37 would do too (but I susepct that's really hard to find). > I checked the enable inputs too, pins 7 and 9, and they are both low, which > looks correct to me. Yes, they;re low to enable, high to disable. However, it's worth checking all this. > Someone has offered me a couple of 8837s, but if I can find a source of > equivalents I would prefer to buy those rather than use someone's spares. I don;t think they're still being made by anybody, so you are going to end up with a NOS part, in other words 'somebody's spare'. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 16:39:55 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 17:39:55 -0400 Subject: HP Moseley Plotter Message-ID: I have a small Hewlett Packard / Moseley plotter here, probably from the mid/late 1960s? available. I was going to scrap it, but maybe an HP fan might want this, as it comes from a not well known division of the company. It looks like it can do 11 by 17, and seems to have digital and analog inputs. Untested, a bit dusty and grungy. I figure there is about 15 bucks of scrap in it, so if anyone wants it for 10 bucks, please speak up now. Of course, feel free to offer more. Off list, please. Maybe 30 pounds, from 10512. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 5 16:40:48 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 14:40:48 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E653D14.6080802@neurotica.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64D942.1227.1192747@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E653D14.6080802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E64DF70.2024.13149CF@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2011 at 17:20, Dave McGuire wrote: > Something has to bootstrap the process, and people need to take > responsibility for their actions. A lot of these folks are drug addicts, mostly meth. I remember that a couple of years ago, a couple of these guys broke into the cage around a 500KV distribution substation and ripped up and made off with much of the grounding grid for it. The Bonneville workers were surprised that none of the thieves got fried. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 5 16:42:04 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 14:42:04 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <4E63B257.4060209@brouhaha.com> References: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> <4E63B257.4060209@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E65422C.6060308@bitsavers.org> On 9/4/11 10:16 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > I'm not sure how device support on the 29xx/39xx compares to Unisite, but the only old programmable devices I've found that the Unisite doesn't support are the first generation EPROMs (1702, 1702a, > 5203, 5204), due to these needed rather extreme programming voltages (e.g., -40V to -50V) on many pins (not just one program pulse pin). The Unisite does support most bipolar PROMs, while most modern > programmers do not. > Just checked, and the earliest parts a 29xx/39xx will program is the 2716, ie. they don't support 2708's. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 5 16:41:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 22:41:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: <4E653D1A.2080905@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Sep 5, 11 10:20:26 pm Message-ID: > I've been thinking along those lines for my ASR33. It's got a lot of > old sticky lubricant all over the typing unit, and I heard recently of > one that was dunked. Mine doesn't always work reliably when it's cold, > but usually is OK after running for a while and has warmed up. > > What do people think about that? My feeling is it wants a good clean > and a proper re-lubrication, and cleaning would be easiest by the > "dunk". Obviously a lot of electrical or plastic parts want taken off > first (the motor, for example!). That sort of method is frwned upon by every book/article on antique clock repair that I have ever read. The main problem is that it doesn't really remove the old oil (if you're not careful it gets redepositied when the solcent evaporates), and it certainly doesn't remove it well from the placed that really matter -- inside bearings, etc. Given that the full manuals for the ASR33 are available, it shou;dn't take more than than a few days to compeltly strip it, clean all the aprts individsually, making sure that bearings, holes, slots, etc are really clean, and put ti back togethter. And if you do that ouu know it's right. I did my first ASR33 like that (actually a Data Dynamics 390, but it's the smae mechanism) when I was sitll at school without the benefit of manuals. Anyone else should manage it therefore. -tony From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Mon Sep 5 16:53:57 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 22:53:57 +0100 Subject: DEC GIGI (again) In-Reply-To: <4E602530.9010506@jwsss.com> References: <4E600E6C.6080402@verizon.net> <4E602530.9010506@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E6544F5.2050508@wickensonline.co.uk> On 02/09/11 01:37, jim s wrote: >> On 09/01/2011 04:15 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> I dug my GIGI out of the pile this weekend, during a visit to my stuff >>>> in Kansas City. I notice it is running out 4 bnc's and recall that >>>> the >>>> Dec monitor I had at one time had that sort of feed. Is it as easy >>>> as 4 >>>> of 5 wires (sync on green maybe) to get it going? >>> I suspec the original mnonitor was a DEC VR241. This is a TV rate >>> (RS170) >>> colour monitor. The inputs are either RGB + composite sync on 4 BNCs or >>> RGB (Sync on green) on 3 of the BNCs, selected by a swtich on the back. >>> >>> FWIW, i am pretty sure this monitor is actually a Hitachi design. >>> The PSU >>> cicruit (in fact driven by the horizontal oscillator after startup) and >>> the thick-film hybrid module cotnainign he vertical defleciton >>> system all >>> pint to this. >> The monitor that was used with that was the BARCO which predates the >> VR241 >> by many years. >> >>> You say toyr terminal has 4 BNCs. Are these labelled in any way? >>> It's not >>> unheard-of for DEC to have RGB (sync on green) on 3 BNC connector and a >>> separate monochrome composite video siganl on another connctor. >>> >> The 4 were Mono, RED Green and blue. For color it was sync on green. >> When using the mono it was RS170 composite. (Any monitor capable of >> black and white). >> >> Allison > At random times, I had acquired some Microvax 38 and cables and a dec > badged sony monitor, probably 17 or 19" I used the BNC inputs (not > the microvax cable) and was able to run the GIGI with it. I got the > GIGI from a scrap dealer in Kansas City, Mo, probably 20 years ago, > but no monitor at that time. > > The monitor was perfectly happy to work with the Microvax systems and > a keyboard for some time as well. Sony monitors as OEM devices were > reputed to support striped sync (5 wire) composite sync (4 wire) and > Sync on green (3 wire), which was actually why I wanted that monitor, > as it ran well with a variety of devices. > > There were still a number of vendors who managed to invert sync, and > such tricks, and so I was never able to use it for a universal > monitor, but it was my best bench monitor for a long time, along with > an OEM Hitachi, which worked on some RT and Sun systems I had at > various times. > > thanks to the list for the replies on and off list, I should have no > problem figureing it out. > Jim I recently acquired a DEC GIGI and having read the vintage computer forum post here: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?20424-DEC-GIGI-and-my-first-magic-smoke-escape.../page2&s=1c684f98dd3530098d5155aa7ca9e768 I was clued up to what might happen when it was turned on - after about 5 mins the magic smoke escaped from the 0.22uf metal film power supply smoothing capacitor. Apart from that it's in fine condition, except for some case yellowing. All keys are present and it looks to have been kept inside all its life. I wired up the 3 BNC RGB connections to the RGB connections on a 5 BNC to VGA adapter and got a reasonable picture on my Iiyama 18.1" TFT flat panel. Regards, Mark. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 5 17:00:23 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 18:00:23 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E653EE2.2000906@mail.msu.edu> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> <4E653EE2.2000906@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E654677.9020908@neurotica.com> On 09/05/2011 05:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin. >> >> In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living >> room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go >> outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper >> coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff >> the freon while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for >> the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough. >> >> And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either. > > Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate > when they don't die as a result*. Yes, exactly. If the dirtbag steals MY air conditioner and I'm anywhere nearby, he's going to eat lead, plain and simple. > You must be a real hit at parties. Yes, usually. But then I tend to party with people who don't inexplicably feel sorry for people who don't fucking behave themselves and screw with other peoples' shit in order to appear "cool" in front of their dirtbag friends. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 5 17:01:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 18:01:52 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <1349870474-1315258561-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1444198602-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com><4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com><4E653EE2.2000906@mail.msu.edu> <1349870474-1315258561-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1444198602-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <4E6546D0.3020900@neurotica.com> ROFL!! On 09/05/2011 05:36 PM, Vintage Coder wrote: > Those are real big words coming from a guy who still has a working air conditioner. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Josh Dersch > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 14:28:02 > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 > Pounds?) > > > > On 9/5/2011 11:13 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin. >> >> In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's >> living room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You >> go outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the >> copper coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They >> often huff the freon while they're at it, according to the cops. >> Fortunately for the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not >> often enough. >> >> And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either. > > Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate > when they don't die as a result*. > > You must be a real hit at parties. > > Josh > >> >> Dirtbags. They're almost as bad as suits. >> >> Almost. >> >> -Dave >> > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 5 17:12:26 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 23:12:26 +0100 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <4E653328.8070107@telegraphics.com.au> References: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> <4E653328.8070107@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <019901cc6c18$e6dbc840$b49358c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Toby Thain > Sent: 05 September 2011 21:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Original Prices of DEC Equipment > > On 20/08/11 8:53 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I would like to find out the original prices of some of the DEC > > equipment I have when it first came out, preferably the UK prices. I > > only have a couple of catalogues but they don't cover all the things I > > am interested in. If anyone has catalogues and could scan the pages > > with prices and options etc that would be great. The equipment I am > interested in are: > > > > MicroVAX II > > MicroVAX 2000 > > MicroVAX 3100 (Models 30, 40, 80, 95) > > VAXstation 4000 VLC > > VAXstation 4000 Model 60 > > MicroVAX 3400 > > PDP11/24 > > VT220 > > VT420 > > LA50 > > Alpha 433au > > DEC 2000 Model 300 AXP > > DEC Professional 350 > > > > For the record, I just found this in a box: > > DEC of Canada Limited, Canadian Price List (173pp) > Authorized Distributor Group Price List Q3 FY 88 > Effective January 18, 1988 > > I'm guessing the VAXes on your list would have been current at that time, > more or less. I don't really have time to compile the prices right now, but let > me know if it's important to you. > The reason I am interested in prices is that I am going to be displaying some of my systems at the DEC Legacy event in the UK next month and I want to compile a card of facts about each machine I display. I suppose the systems I am most interested in getting prices for are the MicroVAX IIs. The smaller of the two has the following spec: BA23 enclosure KA630-AA 16MB of memory RQDX3 TQK70 (was TQK50 when I got it) DELQA (was DEQNA when I got it) RD53 TK70 (was TK50 when I got it) The larger one is BA123 enclosure KA630-AA 16MB memory RQDX3 TQK50 DEQNA TQK50 RQDX3 KRP50 DHV11 DPV11 RD53 RD54 TK50 I would be happy with an indicative price for just the smaller one. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 5 17:14:23 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 23:14:23 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: References: <013c01cc6b51$44db5690$ce9203b0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 4, 11 11:23:25 pm Message-ID: <019a01cc6c19$2ca031e0$85e095a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 05 September 2011 21:52 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems > > > Your other reply suggests that the DEC 8837 does have an almost > > equivalent in the NS DS8837 which I have found a source for. I am > > unclear if you think NS devices would do or not? What is the worst > > that could happen if the NS part was not up to DEC specifications? > > The worst? It'll work intermittanylu, giving oy a nasty fault to trace (but you'd > have a good idea where to start looking), and maybe even corrupting the disk > (if it deselects it halfway through a write operation for example). > > More likeyu : It won't work at all > > Very likely : It'll work fine. > > -tony I am going to go with the "standard" part. If the disk is corrupted I will be able to rebuild it. I am more interested in the likelihood of permanent physical damage to other parts, but that seems unlikely. Regards Rob From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Sep 5 17:23:56 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 15:23:56 -0700 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <1315181946.1766.12.camel@bender> References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> <201108301854.p7UIsRHh007428@ultimate.com> <1315180186.1766.6.camel@bender> <4E64118B.9070905@neurotica.com> <1315181946.1766.12.camel@bender> Message-ID: <4E654BFC.7070209@mail.msu.edu> Cool -- very informative. I've gotten my Sun3 up and running as well (via tape, which seems a lot simpler :)) and I'll share my notes once I'm done getting the Symbolics UX400 coprocessor running as well. Josh On 9/4/2011 5:19 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > Its a little rough, but it should cover most of the nasty parts. > > Brian > > -------------------------------------------- > SunOS 4.1.1 Network Installation > > For my setup, I used these settings: > * the ip for the sun box will be 192.168.0.92 > * the mac address for the sun box is 08:00:20:00:4E:BD > * the ip for the server box will be 192.168.0.253 > * the server box is Centos 5 > * the name of the sun box is (creatively) sun3 > * the nfsroot for the sun3 box is server:/raid/shared/sun3 > ($SUN3HOME) > > > 1) download these directories from www.sun3arc.org somewhere ($SUN3ARC): > BootTapes/Sun3 > Misc-Patches > Sun-Patches > precompiled > > 2) create root directory for the sun3 to nfs boot into. you'll need to be > root so all of the permissions and ownership are set correctly. > cd $SUN3HOME > tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_proto_root.sunos_4_1_1.tar.Z > mkdir usr > cd usr > tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_usr.tar.Z > mkdir kvm > cd kvm > tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_kvm.tar.Z > tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_sys.tar.Z > cd $SUN3HOME/usr > tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_install.tar.Z > tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_manual.tar.Z > tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_text.tar.Z > tar -xzf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_networking.tar.Z > cd $SUN3HOME > ln -s usr/kvm/stand/vmunix . > cp $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/miniroot_sun3 . > cp $SUn3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/munix* . > cd dev > ./MAKEDEV std > > 3) create a swap file > cd $SUN3HOME > dd if=/dev/zero of=swapfile bs=1048576 count=64 > > 4) setup rarpd > 4a) install rarpd > yum install -y rarpd > 4b) populate /etc/ethers: > 08:00:20:00:4E:BD 192.168.0.92 > 4c) start rarpd > /sbin/service rarpd start > > 5) setup tftp > 5a) install tftp > yum install -y tftp-server tftp > 5b) link to standalone boot. Hex value of 192.168.0.92 is C0A8005C > cd /tftpboot > cp $SUN3HOME/usr/kvm/stand/boot.sun3 . > ln -s boot3.sun C0A8005C > 5c) enable tftp by setting 'disable' to 'no' in /etc/xinetd.d/tftp > 5d) restart xinetd > /sbin/service xinetd restart > > 6) give the sun3 a name. Add this line to /etc/hosts: > 192.168.0.92 sun3 > > 7) setup bootparamd > 7a) install > yum install -y bootparamd > 7b) configure by adding this line to /etc/bootparams > sun3 root=192.168.0.253:/raid/shared/sun3 gateway=192.168.0.254:0xffffff00 swap= > 192.168.0.253:/raid/shared/sun3/swapfile > > 8) setup nfs > 8a) exprot the root file system and swap by adding these lines to /etc/exports > /raid/shared/sun3 192.168.0.0/24(rw,insecure,no_root_squash) > /raid/shared/sun3/swapfile 192.168.0.0/24(rw,insecure,no_root_squash) > > 9) start up all of the rpc-style servers > /sbin/service portmap restart > /sbin/service nfs restart > /sbin/service bootparamd restart > > **** At this you should be able to boot the sun3 over nfs using "b le()". > **** it will have some failures, but you should have a root prompt. > **** My boot looks like this: > ------------------------- >> b le() > Boot: le(0,0,0) > Using IP Address 192.168.0.92 = C0A8005C > Booting from tftp server at 192.168.0.254 = C0A800FE > Downloaded 101800 bytes from tftp server. > > Using IP Address 192.168.0.92 = C0A8005C > hostname: sun3.example.com > domainname: (none) > server name '192.168.0.253' > root pathname '/raid/shared/sun3' > root on 192.168.0.253:/raid/shared/sun3 fstype nfs > Boot: vmunix > Size: 893160+189568+202104 bytes > SunOS Release 4.1.1 (GENERIC) #1: Sat Oct 13 06:05:48 PDT 1990 > Copyright (c) 1983-1990, Sun Microsystems, Inc. > mem = 24576K (0x1800000) > avail mem = 23486464 > Ethernet address = 8:0:20:0:4e:bd > si0 at obio 0x140000 pri 2 > st0 at si0 slave 32 > st1 at si0 slave 40 > st2 at si0 slave 24 > st3 at si0 slave 16 > sr0 at si0 slave 48 > sd0 at si0 slave 0 > sd0: > sd1 at si0 slave 1 > sd2 at si0 slave 8 > sd3 at si0 slave 9 > sd4 at si0 slave 16 > sd6 at si0 slave 24 > zs0 at obio 0x20000 pri 3 > zs1 at obio 0x0 pri 3 > le0 at obio 0x120000 pri 3 > bwtwo0 at obmem 0xff000000 pri 4 > bwtwo0: resolution 1152 x 900 > hostname: sun3.example.com > domainname: (none) > root on 192.168.0.253:/raid/shared/sun3 fstype nfs > swap on 192.168.0.253:/raid/shared/sun3/swapfile fstype nfs size 65536K > dump on 192.168.0.253:/raid/shared/sun3/swapfile fstype nfs size 65512K > Can't invoke /sbin/init, error 2 > Can't invoke /single/init, error 2 > Can't invoke /etc/init, error 2 > Can't invoke /bin/init, error 2 > init is /usr/etc/init > mount: server:/execdir: RPC: Unknown host > mount: giving up on: > /usr > checking filesystems > Remount of / failed - check /etc/fstab > # > ----------------------------------- > ******* Unless specified otherwise, the commands from now on will be > ******* on the sun3 machine. > > 10) figure out what kind of hard disk you actually have on the machine and > partition it. > > I had to netboot netbsd to get the cylinders/heads/sectors data since sunos > doesn't print that information. > > Current partition table (unnamed): > partition a - starting cyl 0, # blocks 132060 (124/0/0) > partition b - starting cyl 125, # blocks 133125 (125/0/0) > partition c - starting cyl 0, # blocks 2028825 (1905/0/0) > partition d - starting cyl 0, # blocks 0 (0/0/0) > partition e - starting cyl 0, # blocks 0 (0/0/0) > partition f - starting cyl 0, # blocks 0 (0/0/0) > partition g - starting cyl 251, # blocks 1760445 (1653/0/0) > partition h - starting cyl 0, # blocks 0 (0/0/0) > > > 11) copy the miniroot to the 'b' partition: > dd if=/miniroot_sun3 of=/dev/rsd0b bs=1024 > > 12) setup RSH on server host for remote installation > 12a) install the software > yum install -y rsh-server > 12b) enable the software > set 'disable' to 'no' in /etc/xinetd.d/rsh > 12c) setup .rhosts and /etc/hosts.equiv > echo "192.168.0.92 +">> /etc/hosts.equiv > echo "192.168.0.92">> /root/.rhosts > chmod 600 /root/.rhosts > chmod 600 /etc/hosts.equiv > 12d) make 'rsh' a secure tty so root can log into it > echo "rsh">> /etc/securetty > 12e) restart xinetd > /sbin/service xinetd restart > > 13) create CD image on server for remote installation > 13a) create cdrom image directory ($SUN3CD) > 13b) create symlink from /usr/etc/install to $SUN3CD > 13c) create necessary directories and populate them > cd $SUN3CD > mkdir -p tar/export/exec/kvm/sun3_sunos_4_1_1 > cd tar/export/exec/kvm/sun3_sunos_4_1_1 > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_kvm.tar.Z> kvm > cp $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/miniroot_sun3 . > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_sys.tar.Z> sys > cp $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/SunOS411.sun3.CDROM.xdrtoc xdrtoc > cd $SUN3CD/tar/export/exec > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_proto_root.sunos_4_1_1.tar.Z> proto_ro > ot_sunos_4_1_1 > mkdir -p $SUN3CD/tar/export/exec/sun3_sunos_4_1_1 > cd $SUN3CD/tar/export/exec/sun3_sunos_4_1_1 > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_debugging.tar.Z> debugging > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_demo.tar.Z> demo > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_games.tar.Z> games > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_graphics.tar.Z> graphics > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_install.tar.Z> install > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_networking.tar.Z> networking > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_openwindows_demo.tar.Z> openwindows_de > mo > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_openwindows_fonts.tar.Z> openwindows_f > onts > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_openwindows_programmers.tar.Z> openwin > dows_programmers > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_openwindows_users.tar.Z> openwindows_u > sers > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_rfs.tar.Z> rfs > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_security.tar.Z> security > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_shlib_custom.tar.Z> shlib_custom > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_sunview_demo.tar.Z> sunview_demo > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_sunview_programmers.tar.Z> sunview_pro > grammers > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_sunview_users.tar.Z> sunview_users > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_system_v.tar.Z> system_v > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_text.tar.Z> text > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_tli.tar.Z> tli > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_user_diag.tar.Z> user_diag > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_usr.tar.Z> usr > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_uucp.tar.Z> uucp > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_versatec.tar.Z> versatec > mkdir -p $SUN3CD/tar/export/share/sunos_4_1_1 > cd $SUN3CD/tar/export/share/sunos_4_1_1 > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_manual.tar.Z> manual > mkdir -p $SUN3CD/tar/patches/sunos_4_1_1 > cd $SUN3CD/tar/patches/sunos_4_1_1 > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_patch_cplusplus_2_0.tar.Z> patch_cplus > plus_2_0 > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_patch_ipc.tar.Z> patch_ipc > gunzip -cf $SUN3ARC/BootTapes/Sun3/sun3_patch_taac.tar.Z> patch_taac > cd $SUN3CD > > echo sun3.sun3.sunos.4.1.1>avail_arches > > 14) boot into the miniroot > sync > sync > sync > halt > b sd(0,0,1) -sw > > > 15) neat. Now I'm in the miniroot! Start install: > suninstall > 2 (custom) > 4 (other) > vt100 > [select timezone] > [accept bogus time] > [setup network] > [use existing label, mountpoints for / and /usr] > [software from: sr0, remote, mediahost = "server", address = 192.168.0.253, > all software, /usr, /usr/kvm] > [marvel at the list of software!] > [start the installation] > > > 16) reboot into your fancy sunos 4.1.1 installation > > b sd() > > ** root has no password! ** > > 17) update to 4.1.1U1 > * gunzip $SUN3ARC/Sun-Patches/Sun_4.1.1U1.tar.gz on a linux box > * copy the tarball to the sun3 > * extract the tarball in /var/tmp > taperw -- tape extraction tool > tapeu1.01 -- copyright file > tapeu1.02 -- tarball of installer > tapeu1.03 -- data tarball > tapeu1.04 -- data tarball sun3 > tapeu1.05 -- data tarball sun3x > tapeu1.06 -- copyright file > > * put things where they belong and install > cd /var/tmp > mkdir unbundled > cd unbundled > tar -xf ../tapeu1.02 > cd .. > mkdir bin > cd bin > cp ../tapeu1.03 tar.2 > cp ../tapeu1.04 tar.3 > cp ../tapeu1.05 tar.4 > cd .. > shutdown now # go to single user mode > cd /var/tmp/unbundled > ./install_unbundled -m/var/tmp > > > 18) install the y2kpatch from www.sun3arc.org/Misc-Patches > > > > From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Sep 5 17:29:48 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 22:29:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > The serive manual would be very useful, but I'll but it's totally > unobtainable.... Yeah, that's the conclusion I'm coming to. > The only thing you can do is 'tread carefully;. My guess, based on > simailar machines, is that they will break down into modules, but you may > have to remvoe other small parts first. You may have to remveo individau > lcams, and they may be adustable (try to mark their postionions bfore > taking them off, I guess the service manual would have the adjustment > procedure, but if oyu had tht you'd not be asking). I will try not to move the cams, I do not want to have to re-align them... >> My inability to disassemble them is doubly problematic since parts of the >> mechanism are buried behind so much other stuff that I can't see what >> they're doing, and there are parts that I can't seem to get to move using >> any combination of front panel inputs... there's one bit that I've found a >> way to reset (subtracting) but not a way to set using normal inputs... and > > Subtracting automatically (that is, not manually) could be part of a > division mechanism? There's no divide key. There's a lever that goes to something I can't see that gets reset when you subtract (manually), but the only way I can find to set it is to reach in and move it with a screwdriver. > It's almost imposisble to help you without seeign the machines (and I > don't mean seeing pictures of them), but I had a mis-spent childhood > rpairing things (inclduing doing a full ASR33 strip and rebuild without > any manuals). The tricks are to keep notes of what goes where, maybe take > photos as you go along(if you have a digital camera), and to keep > associated parts togethter (so you know where sprigns go, etc). Don't > force anything. > > My guess it that you're starting in the right place, and that the ribbon > drive comes off early on. Are you sure the linkage can't be separated? The lever that moves the ribbon holder up&down has a C-shaped bit that's hooked all the way through the ribbon holder... it might be removable if I move the lever rather than the ribbon holder, but it is behind a whole bunch of other stuff. I think I will try removing the motor next, it is close to the outside and not obviously connected to anything but the main drive shaft. Any idea what sort of oil I want to re-lubricate with once I get it apart and cleaned? Light silicone oil on axles and grease on cam surfaces? Alexey From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 5 17:29:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 18:29:54 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E64DF70.2024.13149CF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64D942.1227.1192747@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E653D14.6080802@neurotica.com> <4E64DF70.2024.13149CF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E654D62.6050302@neurotica.com> On 09/05/2011 05:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Something has to bootstrap the process, and people need to take >> responsibility for their actions. > > A lot of these folks are drug addicts, mostly meth. Yep, I've heard that too. THAT process also has to start somewhere. > I remember that > a couple of years ago, a couple of these guys broke into the cage > around a 500KV distribution substation and ripped up and made off > with much of the grounding grid for it. > > The Bonneville workers were surprised that none of the thieves got > fried. That's pretty amazing, they certainly got lucky. Even if the gene pool didn't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Sep 5 17:26:56 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 00:26:56 +0200 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E64D942.1227.1192747@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E65267F.3070200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E652B6A.30207@neurotica.com> <4E64D942.1227.1192747@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110905222655.GA8076@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Sep 05, 2011 at 02:14:26PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Sep 2011 at 16:04, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > The dirtbag who huffs someone's freon and then steals the coils is a > > "victim"? Of what, exactly? > > Probably of his own misdeeds. Permanent brain damage is a frequent > companion of "huffing". Doesn't sound like a noticeable change for someone who thinks huffing freon is a good idea. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 5 17:32:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 18:32:49 -0400 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <4E65422C.6060308@bitsavers.org> References: <0906C5FEDA424BF89FC1D9A0DC8C8A04@portajara> <4E63B257.4060209@brouhaha.com> <4E65422C.6060308@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E654E11.9000809@neurotica.com> On 09/05/2011 05:42 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I'm not sure how device support on the 29xx/39xx compares to Unisite, >> but the only old programmable devices I've found that the Unisite >> doesn't support are the first generation EPROMs (1702, 1702a, >> 5203, 5204), due to these needed rather extreme programming voltages >> (e.g., -40V to -50V) on many pins (not just one program pulse pin). >> The Unisite does support most bipolar PROMs, while most modern >> programmers do not. > > Just checked, and the earliest parts a 29xx/39xx will program is the > 2716, ie. they don't support 2708's. The full UniSite can program 2708s, FYI. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Sep 5 17:36:10 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 15:36:10 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Digging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/5/11 1:17 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: snip >> Popping it open, the unit powers on and the drive head is dropped to the >> spinning disk, then lifted, then dropped, then lifted, and the error >> occurs. I cannot see if the head is close enough to the disk or not >> (and I have *no* idea of the tolerances anyway) and am not sure how I'd >> adjust it -- or drive speed, etc. if that's an issue. > > Most 8" drives used AC motors, the speed is set by the frequency of the > power line, and is therefore not something that will drift. A few 8" > drives had electronically-controlled DC motors (ofteh running from a 24V > supply), which can need adjustment. It should be fairly obvious which > yours is. > > In any case, don't adjust anything until you have a clear idea what the > problem is!. The model II used full height 8 inch drives, I'm pretty sure that they were AC powered (*motor*) the stepper was powered by 12 or 24 vdc IIRC From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Sep 5 17:37:25 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 15:37:25 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <4E65422C.6060308@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 9/5/11 2:42 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > On 9/4/11 10:16 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> I'm not sure how device support on the 29xx/39xx compares to Unisite, but the >> only old programmable devices I've found that the Unisite doesn't support are >> the first generation EPROMs (1702, 1702a, >> 5203, 5204), due to these needed rather extreme programming voltages (e.g., >> -40V to -50V) on many pins (not just one program pulse pin). The Unisite does >> support most bipolar PROMs, while most modern >> programmers do not. >> > > Just checked, and the earliest parts a 29xx/39xx will program is the 2716, ie. > they don't support 2708's. If you are looking to program those with a data IO programmer, then the 29B or model 19 are the most modern ones that support those IIRC. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 5 17:43:18 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 15:43:18 -0700 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: References: <4E653D1A.2080905@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Sep 5, 11 10:20:26 pm, Message-ID: <4E64EE16.5521.16A82BC@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2011 at 22:41, Tony Duell wrote: > That sort of method is frwned upon by every book/article on antique > clock repair that I have ever read. The main problem is that it > doesn't really remove the old oil (if you're not careful it gets > redepositied when the solcent evaporates), and it certainly doesn't > remove it well from the placed that really matter -- inside bearings, > etc. Vapor degreasers aren't uncommon. Would they do a better job? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 5 17:44:52 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 15:44:52 -0700 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: References: from "William Donzelli" at Sep 4, 11 06:59:20 pm, Message-ID: <4E64EE74.28535.16BF0A3@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2011 at 21:54, Tony Duell wrote: > When was the last time you shopped ina 'UK grocery store', let alone > one that had dry ice? I have _never_ seen it on sale over here. It might be worthwhile talking to a dairy that makes ice cream. They might know of a good source for the stuff (used by street vendors who don't have access to electrical power). --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Sep 5 17:48:53 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 18:48:53 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E64DF70.2024.13149CF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64D942.1227.1192747@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E653D14.6080802@neurotica.com> <4E64DF70.2024.13149CF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E6551D5.4090706@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/09/11 5:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Sep 2011 at 17:20, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Something has to bootstrap the process, and people need to take >> responsibility for their actions. > > A lot of these folks are drug addicts, mostly meth. So there's a clue, Dave. Unless you think the "War on Drugs" has had any net social benefit. Which would be a rather bizarre and difficult position to defend. --Toby > I remember that > a couple of years ago, a couple of these guys broke into the cage > around a 500KV distribution substation and ripped up and made off > with much of the grounding grid for it. > > The Bonneville workers were surprised that none of the thieves got > fried. > > --Chuck > > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Sep 5 17:59:40 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 15:59:40 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E654677.9020908@neurotica.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> <4E653EE2.2000906@mail.msu.edu> <4E654677.9020908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E65545C.4010601@mail.msu.edu> On 9/5/2011 3:00 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate >> when they don't die as a result*. > > > Yes, exactly. If the dirtbag steals MY air conditioner and I'm > anywhere nearby, he's going to eat lead, plain and simple. > >> You must be a real hit at parties. > > Yes, usually. But then I tend to party with people who don't > inexplicably feel sorry for people who don't fucking behave themselves > and screw with other peoples' shit in order to appear "cool" in front > of their dirtbag friends. > > -Dave > I don't recall saying anything approximating "I feel sorry for jerks who steal stuff" -- perhaps you have me confused with some other person? I'm going to suggest (and you may feel free to disagree with me) that perhaps stealing an air conditioner does not warrant the death penalty? (And as a corollary: Me stating that the death penalty is not an appropriate punishment for theft of household cooling devices does not imply that I "feel sorry" for the perpetrators of said crime.) Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 5 18:12:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 19:12:54 -0400 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E655776.10406@neurotica.com> On 09/05/2011 06:37 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> Just checked, and the earliest parts a 29xx/39xx will program is the 2716, ie. >> they don't support 2708's. > > If you are looking to program those with a data IO programmer, then the 29B > or model 19 are the most modern ones that support those IIRC. Nope, the UniSite definitely does. I have the supported device list for the v8.1 (kinda old, 2006) software sitting in front of me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 5 18:13:31 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 16:13:31 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E654D62.6050302@neurotica.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64DF70.2024.13149CF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E654D62.6050302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E64F52B.25139.1862C95@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2011 at 18:29, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yep, I've heard that too. THAT process also has to start > somewhere. Catalytic converter thefts are up. The metals people say they don't understand why--yes, there's platinum, but it's fairly difficult to extract economically. Reminds me of the guys who'd rip of the gold galvonometer supports in the chart recorders, along with the sliver slidewire beads. There probably wasn't enough there in salvage value to buy much more than a few beers at the local watering hole. I was surprised that nobody slipped between the furnace walls yanked out the 3 ft. long Pt, Pt-Rh thermocouples and ran off with them. Probably had something to do with the 2500F furnace temp. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 5 18:22:17 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 19:22:17 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E6551D5.4090706@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64D942.1227.1192747@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E653D14.6080802@neurotica.com> <4E64DF70.2024.13149CF@cclist.sydex.com> <4E6551D5.4090706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E6559A9.3080702@neurotica.com> On 09/05/2011 06:48 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Something has to bootstrap the process, and people need to take >>> responsibility for their actions. >> >> A lot of these folks are drug addicts, mostly meth. > > So there's a clue, Dave. Unless you think the "War on Drugs" has had any > net social benefit. Which would be a rather bizarre and difficult > position to defend. The War On Some Drugs in particular, no, I'd never defend that. However, as to your "clue", the meth didn't reach out and grab these people. The CHOSE to do it, at least in the beginning. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 5 18:25:19 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 19:25:19 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E65545C.4010601@mail.msu.edu> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> <4E653EE2.2000906@mail.msu.edu> <4E654677.9020908@neurotica.com> <4E65545C.4010601@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E655A5F.6090503@neurotica.com> On 09/05/2011 06:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate >>> when they don't die as a result*. >> >> >> Yes, exactly. If the dirtbag steals MY air conditioner and I'm >> anywhere nearby, he's going to eat lead, plain and simple. >> >>> You must be a real hit at parties. >> >> Yes, usually. But then I tend to party with people who don't >> inexplicably feel sorry for people who don't fucking behave themselves >> and screw with other peoples' shit in order to appear "cool" in front >> of their dirtbag friends. > > I don't recall saying anything approximating "I feel sorry for jerks who > steal stuff" -- perhaps you have me confused with some other person? I'm > going to suggest (and you may feel free to disagree with me) that > perhaps stealing an air conditioner does not warrant the death penalty? > (And as a corollary: Me stating that the death penalty is not an > appropriate punishment for theft of household cooling devices does not > imply that I "feel sorry" for the perpetrators of said crime.) I apologize if I read too much into your statement. I do NOT think that such thievery warrants "the death penalty" as imposed by the government when the dirtbag gets busted. I do, however, think it is JUST FINE when these idiots do dirtbaggish things and get themselves killed in the process. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 5 18:33:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 19:33:56 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E64F52B.25139.1862C95@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64DF70.2024.13149CF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E654D62.6050302@neurotica.com> <4E64F52B.25139.1862C95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E655C64.9010300@neurotica.com> On 09/05/2011 07:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Catalytic converter thefts are up. The metals people say they don't > understand why--yes, there's platinum, but it's fairly difficult to > extract economically. And if I understand correctly, there's very little metal in them to begin with, and probably really dangerous (carcinogenically speaking) to extract. > Reminds me of the guys who'd rip of the gold galvonometer supports in > the chart recorders, along with the sliver slidewire beads. There > probably wasn't enough there in salvage value to buy much more than a > few beers at the local watering hole. ...which is probably exactly what they were after. > I was surprised that nobody slipped between the furnace walls yanked > out the 3 ft. long Pt, Pt-Rh thermocouples and ran off with them. > Probably had something to do with the 2500F furnace temp. Fried dirtbag! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 5 18:50:01 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 16:50:01 -0700 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E656029.8050209@jwsss.com> Can someone share the method of duplicating the CD, and if possible where an iso can be had with me off list if necessary, thanks. Jim > I'm in the process of getting a mongrel Sun 3/400 machine running as a host for my Symbolics UX400. The UX400 support software requires SunOS 4.1 which I used to have on CD, but I now appear to have misplaced. (I have a copy of 4.1.4, but it only supports Sun4 machines > ) > > Anyone have a copy they could make an image of? (and yes, I've confirmed that this machine will boot from CD.) > > Thanks! > Josh > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Sep 5 18:57:57 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 19:57:57 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E654677.9020908@neurotica.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> <4E653EE2.2000906@mail.msu.edu> <4E654677.9020908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E656205.6080502@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/09/11 6:00 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/05/2011 05:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin. >>> >>> In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living >>> room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go >>> outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper >>> coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff >>> the freon while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for >>> the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough. >>> >>> And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either. >> >> Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate >> when they don't die as a result*. > > Yes, exactly. If the dirtbag steals MY air conditioner and I'm > anywhere nearby, he's going to eat lead, plain and simple. Do you concealed carry, Dirty Harry? You should carry a warning label. --T > >> You must be a real hit at parties. > > Yes, usually. But then I tend to party with people who don't > inexplicably feel sorry for people who don't fucking behave themselves > and screw with other peoples' shit in order to appear "cool" in front of > their dirtbag friends. > > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 5 19:03:12 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 20:03:12 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E656205.6080502@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> <4E653EE2.2000906@mail.msu.edu> <4E654677.9020908@neurotica.com> <4E656205.6080502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E656340.6080501@neurotica.com> On 09/05/2011 07:57 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin. >>>> >>>> In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living >>>> room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go >>>> outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper >>>> coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff >>>> the freon while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for >>>> the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough. >>>> >>>> And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either. >>> >>> Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate >>> when they don't die as a result*. >> >> Yes, exactly. If the dirtbag steals MY air conditioner and I'm >> anywhere nearby, he's going to eat lead, plain and simple. > > Do you concealed carry, Dirty Harry? You should carry a warning label. I do not. But that warning label would read: "Warning: Do not be a dirtbag within fifty feet of this property." I have little tolerance for dirtbags. (where "little" is equal to "no") -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Sep 5 19:07:31 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 02:07:31 +0200 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E6551D5.4090706@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E64D942.1227.1192747@cclist.sydex.com> <4E653D14.6080802@neurotica.com> <4E64DF70.2024.13149CF@cclist.sydex.com> <4E6551D5.4090706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20110906000731.GB8076@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Sep 05, 2011 at 06:48:53PM -0400, Toby Thain wrote: > On 05/09/11 5:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 5 Sep 2011 at 17:20, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > >> Something has to bootstrap the process, and people need to take > >> responsibility for their actions. > > > > A lot of these folks are drug addicts, mostly meth. > > So there's a clue, Dave. Unless you think the "War on Drugs" has had any > net social benefit. Which would be a rather bizarre and difficult > position to defend. Well, so far the "War on (some) Drugs" has only achieved two things: - put a lot of people in jail that otherwise wouldn't be there - make producing and selling drugs an insanely profitable business (for the top dogs in the business, of course) Aside from that there is plenty of collateral damage both to a lot of individuals and to society as a whole. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 5 19:21:18 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 20:21:18 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <20110906000731.GB8076@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E64D942.1227.1192747@cclist.sydex.com> <4E653D14.6080802@neurotica.com> <4E64DF70.2024.13149CF@cclist.sydex.com> <4E6551D5.4090706@telegraphics.com.au> <20110906000731.GB8076@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4E65677E.4030704@neurotica.com> On 09/05/2011 08:07 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>>> Something has to bootstrap the process, and people need to take >>>> responsibility for their actions. >>> >>> A lot of these folks are drug addicts, mostly meth. >> >> So there's a clue, Dave. Unless you think the "War on Drugs" has had any >> net social benefit. Which would be a rather bizarre and difficult >> position to defend. > > Well, so far the "War on (some) Drugs" has only achieved two things: > - put a lot of people in jail that otherwise wouldn't be there > - make producing and selling drugs an insanely profitable business > (for the top dogs in the business, of course) > > Aside from that there is plenty of collateral damage both to a lot of > individuals and to society as a whole. Yes. It's really quite silly, and the politicians seem to be doing it so they can point to it and say they're "doing something", usually to the soccer moms, especially around reelection time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 19:30:13 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 20:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Sep 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm sure most of you are probably aware of my DiscFerret disc analyser > project: > http://www.discferret.com > > The Cliff Notes: it's an enhanced, ground-up-re-engineered Catweasel-type > disc analyser, with a USB interface, more accurate data sampling, and ST-506 > disc support (with an adapter board). All the design files and source code > can be downloaded freely from the website above, and are licensed under > OSI-Compliant open-source licenses. Philip, Has there been any progress on the software side of things? Steve -- From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Sep 5 19:33:28 2011 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 20:33:28 -0400 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <019a01cc6c19$2ca031e0$85e095a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <013c01cc6b51$44db5690$ce9203b0$@ntlworld.com> <019a01cc6c19$2ca031e0$85e095a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201109060033.p860XTaf020451@rickmurphy.net> At 06:14 PM 9/5/2011, Rob Jarratt wrote: >I am going to go with the "standard" part. If the disk is corrupted I will >be able to rebuild it. I am more interested in the likelihood of permanent >physical damage to other parts, but that seems unlikely. I'd say that's pretty unlikely. It'll work or not, but not damage anything. If you can find an DS8837 or Signetics 8T37 it will replace the original. For whatever it's worth, the 8837s in my stash of DEC ICs are Signetics origin, probably rebranded with the DEC part number. -Rick From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 19:56:58 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 17:56:58 -0700 Subject: DEC PWS 500au boot failure In-Reply-To: <1315240993.31620.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> References: <1315240993.31620.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> Message-ID: This actually happened to me last month. I was taking a PWS 500 out of storage and, of course the battery was (presumed)dead. But I did not get any video and nothing out of the serial port. I was all set to use it for parts and took all the cards out of the pci slots. I hooked up the serial port and viola! I got some stuff out of the serial port. Remember the PWS 500 DEFAULTS to the ARC ( for windows) and it will take a while for it to output messages thru the serial port. Once you replace the battery, you can switch to the SRM console. After I got a prompt serial output, I replaced the cards, one at a time to make sure they were OK. You should also make sure the memory is well seated, also remember that the default procedure is for the machine to check memory, so until you can change the defaults in the firmware, it will take a while to boot. The card removal was a precaution as a faulty card may not allow it to boot. Good luck! Cheers tom On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 9:43 AM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > Hey all! > > I went to fire up my DEC Personal Workstation 500au the other day and it > doesn't boot up any more :( > > I don't get anything out of video or the serial console and the > diagnostic lights all go out (00) rather than displaying an error or > booting message. The battery in it was dead and I replaced it but to no > avail. > > Anybody come across this before and know how to fix it? > > Thanks! > Brian > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Sep 5 20:41:43 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 21:41:43 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E653DFA.3010605@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> <4E653DFA.3010605@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E657A57.7030107@telegraphics.com.au> On 05/09/11 5:24 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 05/09/2011 19:13, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 09/05/2011 12:39 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Of course. But the rise in commodities prices driven by China (copper is >>> a good example) is real, and changes people's behaviour. Theft of copper >>> and other metals is more commonplace than it was. People get >>> electrocuted frequently while trying to steal live wires. >> >> Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin. >> >> In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's >> living room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You >> go outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the >> copper coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. > > The academic and telecomms communities in the UK have plenty of > instances of fibre optic links suddenly going down, and the repair crews > finding someone has ripped up "the wires" to sell for scrap. > I expect that soon enough we will begin to see fewer metal fixtures and parts in easily-accessible public installations. & fewer extravagances like the great big sheet of (apparently) copper that lines the elevator in this 60s-era apartment building. Not only public sculpture parks are running scared after the awful Henry Moore theft. Things will change. --Toby From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 5 21:14:54 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 19:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E652B6A.30207@neurotica.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> <4E65267F.3070200@telegraphics.com.au> <4E652B6A.30207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Sep 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/05/2011 03:43 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living >>> room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go outside >>> and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper coils in >>> the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff the freon >>> while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for the rest of >>> us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough. >>> >>> And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either. >>> >>> Dirtbags. They're almost as bad as suits. >> >> Sounds a bit like blaming the victim, Dave. > > The dirtbag who huffs someone's freon and then steals the coils is a > "victim"? Of what, exactly? Now if we can convince the huffing underworld to buy the notion that huffing cyanide is cool, then we're onto something good. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 5 21:20:57 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 19:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E656205.6080502@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org>, <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> <4E65114E.1060102@neurotica.com> <4E653EE2.2000906@mail.msu.edu> <4E654677.9020908@neurotica.com> <4E656205.6080502@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Sep 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > On 05/09/11 6:00 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 09/05/2011 05:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>> Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin. >>>> >>>> In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living >>>> room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go >>>> outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper >>>> coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff >>>> the freon while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for >>>> the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough. >>>> >>>> And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either. >>> >>> Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate >>> when they don't die as a result*. >> >> Yes, exactly. If the dirtbag steals MY air conditioner and I'm >> anywhere nearby, he's going to eat lead, plain and simple. > > Do you concealed carry, Dirty Harry? You should carry a warning label. He could be talking about his lead-loaded shillelagh. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Sep 5 21:29:52 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 22:29:52 -0400 Subject: DEC PWS 500au boot failure In-Reply-To: References: <1315240993.31620.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> Message-ID: <1315276192.4177.4.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> On Mon, 2011-09-05 at 17:56 -0700, Tom publix wrote: > This actually happened to me last month. I was taking a PWS 500 out of > storage and, of course the battery was (presumed)dead. But I did not get any > video and nothing out of the serial port. I was all set to use it for parts > and took all the cards out of the pci slots. I hooked up the serial port and > viola! I got some stuff out of the serial port. > > Remember the PWS 500 DEFAULTS to the ARC ( for windows) and it will take a > while for it to output messages thru the serial port. > > Once you replace the battery, you can switch to the SRM console. After I got > a prompt serial output, I replaced the cards, one at a time to make sure > they were OK. > > You should also make sure the memory is well seated, also remember that the > default procedure is for the machine to check memory, so until you can > change the defaults in the firmware, it will take a while to boot. The card > removal was a precaution as a faulty card may not allow it to boot. > Good luck! > Well, I had it hooked up to a terminal and to the vga monitor via a powerstorm 3D30 card. No output on either. Weird thing is, it sometimes ignores the power switch for both on and off. Letting it sit with the power unplugged seems to clear it, but I'm wondering if something bigger is going on. I'd really hate to lose this machine but I'm not terribly optimistic. I also tried it with a generic trident pci card with no luck either. The monitor never goes out of powersave with either card. With alphabios I would have expected it to at least send a black screen to the monitor... Any ideas? Brian > Cheers > tom > > On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 9:43 AM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > > Hey all! > > > > I went to fire up my DEC Personal Workstation 500au the other day and it > > doesn't boot up any more :( > > > > I don't get anything out of video or the serial console and the > > diagnostic lights all go out (00) rather than displaying an error or > > booting message. The battery in it was dead and I replaced it but to no > > avail. > > > > Anybody come across this before and know how to fix it? > > > > Thanks! > > Brian > > > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 5 23:34:11 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 21:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 boot rom 5.1 Message-ID: Are there any P112 users who have updated their P112 boot roms to version 5.1? I just got a batch of 5.1 roms from Terry Gulczynski and I find that they won't boot CP/M 2.2 as downloaded from p112.sourceforge.net. I have only a very crude understanding of what's going on under the hood, so I'd appreciate some help in figuring out what's wrong. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tingox at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 10:55:14 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 17:55:14 +0200 Subject: Can anyone ID this machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 7:27 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > A coworker of mine showed me this link. Whatever it is looks pretty sweet, > but I don't think I've ever seen a similar machine. Anyone know what it is? > Is it even a computer, or some sort of teletype switching office? FWIW, a TRS (tape / teletype relay station) would have more teletypes. Lots more. :-) -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From iamvirtual at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 12:12:50 2011 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 11:12:50 -0600 Subject: RT-11 v2C Fortran Message-ID: Does anyone have an image of the Fortran DECtape which is compatible with RT-11 v2C? I have a copy which is labeled as being suitable for RT-11 v2C, but it does not have the 'fortra.sav' file. There is a 'forgen.com' file. Since RT-11 v2C doesn't support command files, I don't think the tape is for RT-11 v2C. Thanks! --barrym From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 12:34:40 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 13:34:40 -0400 Subject: TI CD 1400 Drive [for sale / offers] Message-ID: > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: >> I need to get rid of this drive. ?I don't have the TI990 computer for it anymore. >> If I don't get any offers in the next couple of days I'm going to scrap it out (that said - this is not free). >> It's a TI CD 1400 branded drive. ?Magnetic Peripherals 944B drive. >> The unit weighs 175 pounds so it puts out of the standard shipping range. >> Please send any offers off list. ?Drive is located in Port Huron, Michigan. >> >> Rob Too bad you don't live further northeast. That drive would go nicely on either the 990/10 or the 990/12 at the RICM. -- Michael Thompson From james at machineroom.info Mon Sep 5 15:34:13 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 21:34:13 +0100 Subject: Early 3D rendition In-Reply-To: <4E6283A8.2040808@update.uu.se> References: <4E6283A8.2040808@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4E653245.2080705@machineroom.info> On 03/09/2011 20:44, Pontus wrote: > Hi > > I was sent this link with a film of an early 3D computer rendered > animation by Ed Catmull and Fred Parke: > > http://nerdplusart.com/first-3d-rendered-film-from-1972-and-my-visit-to-pixar > > > I'd love to know more technical details and also if it really is the > first 3D film. Henri Gouraud published his techniques in 1971, this > must be a very early application at least. > > Kind Regards, > Pontus. > Very cool. As for "first 3D film" I guess it really depends on what you mean by 3D. I just picked up my copy of creative computer graphics (which I blame for at least one of my unusual hobbies) and I see a 3D approach to an airfield simulation from 1968. Admitedly it's only wire frame, but I'd say that counts as 3D. The fact that only 4 years later this hand animation with reaonable shading had been produced is a true credit to those involved. J From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Mon Sep 5 18:18:06 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 00:18:06 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: DEC PWS 500au boot failure Message-ID: <01O5PNYO6F4I000HHT@beyondthepale.ie> > >I went to fire up my DEC Personal Workstation 500au the other day and it >doesn't boot up any more :( > >I don't get anything out of video or the serial console and the >diagnostic lights all go out (00) rather than displaying an error or >booting message. The battery in it was dead and I replaced it but to no >avail. > >Anybody come across this before and know how to fix it? > I don't know much about the DEC Personal Workstation 500au but... Did the battery leak? I have a VAXStation 2000 which had a leaky battery which did some damage on the system board. (Fortunately, it was not severe and it is now repaired.) Check around the battery and near where the battery is connected to the system board as electrolyte can wick along the leads. Does it beep? I'm not sure about this one but some alphas will emit beep codes, if they fail before being able to access the console and some of the codes may be explained in the manual. Presumably there are some signs of life such as fans running and/or lights lighting? The next step is probably to check that the power supply is producing all the required voltages. Maybe there is a label specifying what they should be :-) Maybe not :-( Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Sep 6 03:59:53 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 10:59:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TI CD 1400 Drive [for sale / offers] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Sep 2011, Michael Thompson wrote: > Too bad you don't live further northeast. That drive would go nicely > on either the 990/10 or the 990/12 at the RICM. Our 990/12s all have SCSI, they are quite modern machines that may still be in use at some sites. Christian From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Sep 6 05:15:12 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 11:15:12 +0100 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: <4E653D1A.2080905@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4e650361.a39dec0a.4519.26d0@mx.google.com> <4E653D1A.2080905@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <06C96D1EDA874C9BB3D785CF960346C5@RODSDEVSYSTEM> I know that paraffin (kerosene) washers are used in the car industry. They have a short metal hose over a grid in a round enclosure. A pump moves the paraffin up through the hose. Regards ? Rod Smallwood +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull Sent: 05 September 2011 22:20 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Adding machine repair On 05/09/2011 18:08, Tom wrote: > I worked for an office equipment store back in the 80's. They had a > concrete laundry tub filled with kerosene or some similar solvent, with > some metal racks in them. Any major repairs to typewriters or mechanical > calculators was proceeded by a dunk in the solvent, perhaps over night. > I think they used the other half of the sink for a second dunk. Might > have been more kerosene or maybe kerosene with a small amount of light > machine oil dissolved in it. They only dunked the metal parts. I'm not > sure if the removed each plastic key first or not-- maybe they did. I've been thinking along those lines for my ASR33. It's got a lot of old sticky lubricant all over the typing unit, and I heard recently of one that was dunked. Mine doesn't always work reliably when it's cold, but usually is OK after running for a while and has warmed up. What do people think about that? My feeling is it wants a good clean and a proper re-lubrication, and cleaning would be easiest by the "dunk". Obviously a lot of electrical or plastic parts want taken off first (the motor, for example!). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Sep 6 07:10:55 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 13:10:55 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1315311055.18781.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> On Mon, 2011-09-05 at 20:30 -0400, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Has there been any progress on the software side of things? A little: * The API (libdiscferret) is basically complete; the Trivial API needs finalising and implementing, but that's about it. * Magpie (the disc reading tool) is usable to the point of being able to create disc images. There are still a few features on the to-do list, but it's stable. * Merlin is getting a rewrite -- the plotting library I was using produced some truly ugly graphs. I've spent the past few weeks writing my own... Also on the to-do list: * Image file converter -- convert to/from STREAM, CWTOOL and DiscFerret DFI image formats * Bulk-erase (anyone remember COPYIIPC?) * Disc write support (the hardware and microcode are done, just need to write the software) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bdwheele at indiana.edu Tue Sep 6 07:52:42 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 08:52:42 -0400 Subject: DEC PWS 500au boot failure In-Reply-To: <01O5PNYO6F4I000HHT@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01O5PNYO6F4I000HHT@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <1315313562.1976.5.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Tue, 2011-09-06 at 00:18 +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > >I went to fire up my DEC Personal Workstation 500au the other day and it > >doesn't boot up any more :( > > > >I don't get anything out of video or the serial console and the > >diagnostic lights all go out (00) rather than displaying an error or > >booting message. The battery in it was dead and I replaced it but to no > >avail. > > > >Anybody come across this before and know how to fix it? > > > > I don't know much about the DEC Personal Workstation 500au but... > > Did the battery leak? I have a VAXStation 2000 which had a leaky battery > which did some damage on the system board. (Fortunately, it was not severe > and it is now repaired.) Check around the battery and near where the battery > is connected to the system board as electrolyte can wick along the leads. > Nope, no leakage. > Does it beep? I'm not sure about this one but some alphas will emit beep > codes, if they fail before being able to access the console and some of the > codes may be explained in the manual. > Not supposed to beep unless there's problems, and I took out the memory and it does beep :) > Presumably there are some signs of life such as fans running and/or lights > lighting? The next step is probably to check that the power supply is producing > all the required voltages. Maybe there is a label specifying what they should > be :-) Maybe not :-( > The fans spin, the drives power up, and the diagnostic lights start doing their thing. But instead of showing the code for being in the console or whatever, then all turn off. I just read that alphabios will ignore the serial port if there is a keyboard/mouse/video card plugged in (which I do) so I'll probably pull those later and see if alphabios decides to start talking to me on the serial port. Brian > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 6 09:23:24 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 07:23:24 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <1315311055.18781.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> <1315311055.18781.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4E662CDC.1040703@bitsavers.org> On 9/6/11 5:10 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > DiscFerret DFI image formats > * Bulk-erase (anyone remember COPYIIPC?) Is the CIIPC format documented somewhere? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 09:31:21 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 11:31:21 -0300 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> <1315311055.18781.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <4E662CDC.1040703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <710A077E3AF14D629427D86EB9E2812A@portajara> >> DiscFerret DFI image formats >> * Bulk-erase (anyone remember COPYIIPC?) This is something I miss :( From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 6 09:47:04 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 08:47:04 -0600 Subject: Early 3D rendition In-Reply-To: <4E653245.2080705@machineroom.info> References: <4E6283A8.2040808@update.uu.se> <4E653245.2080705@machineroom.info> Message-ID: In article <4E653245.2080705 at machineroom.info>, James Wilson writes: > Very cool. As for "first 3D film" I guess it really depends on what you > mean by 3D. Yeah, I know. But as a non-practitioner of the field, he's using it in accordance with common parlance, which infers "3D" to mean shaded surfaces with hidden surfaces removed. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 09:55:32 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 07:55:32 -0700 Subject: DEC PWS 500au boot failure In-Reply-To: <1315313562.1976.5.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <01O5PNYO6F4I000HHT@beyondthepale.ie> <1315313562.1976.5.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: You definitely need to disconnect the mouse and keyboard for the serial port to work. Otherwise it outputs to the graphics card and if that is your problem, you will not know!! The PWS default to the ARC bios and you will have to wait several minutes for the firmware diagnostics to check things. You should then get an output with a message to "press F2" or something. If you get this message your machine has run its test and you can reset the values in the ARC bios or switch the SRM console. If the machine is OK and the messages output to the your serial terminal, you can put back the Graphics card, mouse and keyboard and boot again. If your graphics card works, you should get the output to your VGA monitor (make sure you have the correct sync rate, otherwise you will not get an output, the default rate for a powerstorm is like a 1240x1024 which some monitors wont do. You might have to set the switches on the card to output the a sync rate your monitor can handle (1024x768 @ 60hz) should do. After all the messages appear on your VGA monitor , you should also get a prompt ( three chevrons)on your serial console (but no messages) On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > On Tue, 2011-09-06 at 00:18 +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > > > >I went to fire up my DEC Personal Workstation 500au the other day and it > > >doesn't boot up any more :( > > > > > >I don't get anything out of video or the serial console and the > > >diagnostic lights all go out (00) rather than displaying an error or > > >booting message. The battery in it was dead and I replaced it but to no > > >avail. > > > > > >Anybody come across this before and know how to fix it? > > > > > > > I don't know much about the DEC Personal Workstation 500au but... > > > > Did the battery leak? I have a VAXStation 2000 which had a leaky battery > > which did some damage on the system board. (Fortunately, it was not > severe > > and it is now repaired.) Check around the battery and near where the > battery > > is connected to the system board as electrolyte can wick along the leads. > > > > Nope, no leakage. > > > Does it beep? I'm not sure about this one but some alphas will emit beep > > codes, if they fail before being able to access the console and some of > the > > codes may be explained in the manual. > > > > > Not supposed to beep unless there's problems, and I took out the memory > and it does beep :) > > > Presumably there are some signs of life such as fans running and/or > lights > > lighting? The next step is probably to check that the power supply is > producing > > all the required voltages. Maybe there is a label specifying what they > should > > be :-) Maybe not :-( > > > > The fans spin, the drives power up, and the diagnostic lights start > doing their thing. But instead of showing the code for being in the > console or whatever, then all turn off. > > I just read that alphabios will ignore the serial port if there is a > keyboard/mouse/video card plugged in (which I do) so I'll probably pull > those later and see if alphabios decides to start talking to me on the > serial port. > > Brian > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan. > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 6 10:16:48 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 08:16:48 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <710A077E3AF14D629427D86EB9E2812A@portajara> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk>, <710A077E3AF14D629427D86EB9E2812A@portajara> Message-ID: <4E65D6F0.26000.E83B2@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2011 at 11:31, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> DiscFerret DFI image formats > >> * Bulk-erase (anyone remember COPYIIPC?) > > This is something I miss :( This is probably something that Fred knows about as well--the way C2PC did this was to issue a format command for a sector with a very large length in the header and then proceed to write the sector, causing the 765 to "eat its tail", leaving no addresses on the track. The problem with this, as people who discovered that 5.25" 2D floppies "bulk erased", then formatted in a 1.2M drive (alternate tracks), then read in a 360K (48tpi) drives still had the background "noise" and so didn't work. Nothing substitutes for a genuine bulk eraser/degausser. Nothing. One may as well have done a DOS FORMAT for all the good it would have done. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 6 12:31:02 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 10:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <1315311055.18781.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> <1315311055.18781.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20110906101214.U1907@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 6 Sep 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > * The API (libdiscferret) is basically complete; the Trivial API needs > finalising and implementing, but that's about it. For users who program at a slightly "higher" software level, it would be VERY nice to have a supplemental "mid-level" API that provides the functions of INT13h, starting with function 2 "read sector(s)" > * Disc write support (the hardware and microcode are done, just need > to write the software) THAT's an exciting step! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 6 13:02:04 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 13:02:04 -0500 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <4E64EE74.28535.16BF0A3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E64EE74.28535.16BF0A3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201109061804.p86I4LDY055781@billy.ezwind.net> At 05:44 PM 9/5/2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 5 Sep 2011 at 21:54, Tony Duell wrote: > >> When was the last time you shopped ina 'UK grocery store', let alone >> one that had dry ice? I have _never_ seen it on sale over here. At my small-town hardware store, they'll make it for you on the spot, as they have tanks of CO2 around. - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 13:20:23 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 14:20:23 -0400 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > Your "friendly neighbourhood hardware store" won't sell it to you... >> >> Quite a few UK grocery stores sell dry ice, as well as some restaurant >> supply houses. > > When was the last time you shopped ina 'UK grocery store', let alone one > that had dry ice? I have _never_ seen it on sale over here. In the States, we get it from proper Ice Cream shops. They sell it for long-term product transport. I could list names (Knight's, Graeter's, etc.) but unless you happen to be in Central Ohio, the names won't help much. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 13:21:07 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 14:21:07 -0400 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <201109061804.p86I4LDY055781@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4E64EE74.28535.16BF0A3@cclist.sydex.com> <201109061804.p86I4LDY055781@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > At my small-town hardware store, they'll make it for you on the spot, > as they have tanks of CO2 around. Great for when you want to get part A into part B, and part A is just a tiny bit too big. Anyway, I received one email response so far to my inquiry to some of the larger supermarket chains, and yes, they indeed will sell dry ice. You have to ask for it. And I figured this out from across the ocean. Ain't the Internet grand? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 13:27:55 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 14:27:55 -0400 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > In the States, we get it from proper Ice Cream shops. ?They sell it > for long-term > product transport. And to caterers. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 6 12:46:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 18:46:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC GIGI (again) In-Reply-To: <4E6544F5.2050508@wickensonline.co.uk> from "Mark Wickens" at Sep 5, 11 10:53:57 pm Message-ID: > I was clued up to what might happen when it was turned on - after about > 5 mins the magic smoke escaped from the 0.22uf metal film power supply > smoothing capacitor. 0.22uF is not a smoothing capacitor (at least not for any sensible PSU frequency :-)). Most likely it's part of a the mains filter circuit. If so, you can run without it for the moment, but it's best to replace it, My guess is thati's across the live nad neutral of the mains (given its value), so a class X capacitor would be fine. Often when coe capacitor in amains filter fails, the others aren't far behind. Although I dislike 'shotgun debugging', I normally replace the lot. Anything betwene live and neutral can be replaced by a class X, but the ones from one side of the mains to earth (ground) should be repalced with class Y for safety. These are normally much lower in value, arroudn 4700pF. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 6 13:03:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 19:03:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <019a01cc6c19$2ca031e0$85e095a0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 5, 11 11:14:23 pm Message-ID: > I am going to go with the "standard" part. If the disk is corrupted I will I would too. I can't believe you'll ahve any problems/ > be able to rebuild it. I am more interested in the likelihood of permanent > physical damage to other parts, but that seems unlikely. I really can't see how it could damage anything else. It's not going to draw excessive current (either from the inputs or the power rail). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 6 13:08:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 19:08:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: from "Alexey Toptygin" at Sep 5, 11 10:29:48 pm Message-ID: > The lever that moves the ribbon holder up&down has a C-shaped bit that's > hooked all the way through the ribbon holder... it might be removable if I > move the lever rather than the ribbon holder, but it is behind a whole > bunch of other stuff. I think I will try removing the motor next, it is You are sure it's rigidly fixed at hte hidden end? It's possible it's fixed (and pivoted) on the ribbon drive unit, and just runs on a cam, or hooks into a forekd end of anotehr lever, so that when you remvoe the fixing screws for the ribbon drive, it just comes out with it. Have you tried this? > close to the outside and not obviously connected to anything but the main > drive shaft. Yes, normall the motor will come out easily. > > Any idea what sort of oil I want to re-lubricate with once I get it apart > and cleaned? Light silicone oil on axles and grease on cam surfaces? I norally use watch and clock oils for something like this. And yes, a smear of high melting point grease (the sort of stuff you use for car bearings) on cams, motor gearing, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 6 13:12:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 19:12:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 Model II Digging In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Sep 5, 11 03:36:10 pm Message-ID: > The model II used full height 8 inch drives, I'm pretty sure that they were > AC powered (*motor*) the stepper was powered by 12 or 24 vdc IIRC Most 8" drives have AC spindle motors, all the ones I own do. But there's a mentiuon of a 24V DC spindle motor in the manuals for some drives, so I guess they existed. It's pretty easy to tell which you have by looking at the drive thoguh. Most 8" drives ran the head stepper motor from 24V I think. Many 8" drives also need a -ve supply (-12V or -5V, in the former case it may well be regulated down to -5V on the drive PCB) for the analogue seciton (read amplifier, etc). If that's mising you migth get a drive that won't read, but that rail may well mot be essential for any other part of the machine to work. Worth checking all supply voltages at the drive. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 6 13:51:25 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 11:51:25 -0700 Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4E66093D.19368.D2FFDE@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2011 at 14:20, Ethan Dicks wrote: > In the States, we get it from proper Ice Cream shops. They sell it > for long-term product transport. I could list names (Knight's, > Graeter's, etc.) but unless you happen to be in Central Ohio, the > names won't help much. Apparently, over the last few years, liquid nitrogen has made its way into the amateur cook's kitchen. I think it was started by a Scientific American article about making very smooth ice cream by dribbling LN2 into the basic ice cream mix. Reults in a very small crystal size and thus, a very smooth product. I've even heard of using LN2 to shuck oysters, by causing the shell to shatter, leaving the innards unharmed. The point is, if we can get LN2 for the kitchen, certainly one can get dry ice in the UK if one is determined. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 6 13:50:23 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 13:50:23 -0500 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: <4E653D1A.2080905@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4e650361.a39dec0a.4519.26d0@mx.google.com> <4E653D1A.2080905@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <201109061852.p86IqL1f057573@billy.ezwind.net> At 04:20 PM 9/5/2011, Pete Turnbull wrote: >I've been thinking along those lines for my ASR33. It's got a lot of old sticky lubricant all over the typing unit, and I heard recently of one that was dunked. Mine doesn't always work reliably when it's cold, but usually is OK after running for a while and has warmed up. What do people think about that? It's certainly a FAQ on the Greenkeys list: http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/ Yes, dunk it, then re-lube. - John From useddec at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 14:05:56 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 14:05:56 -0500 Subject: More house cleaning... Message-ID: Still trying to unpack and thin the herd. Any interest? Shipping from zip 61853, Illinois Thanks, Paul 1 BA350-KA in pedestal with doors 1 BA350-KB 5 BA350-LA 1 BA350-MA WITH HSZ50,HSX CACHE, ETC 1 BA350-SA 1 BA350-SB 1 BA356-JC 1 BA356-KC 2 BA356-RA 1 DS-BA356-RC blue 2 BA356-SC 3 HS35X-BA 7 BA35X-HA 4 BA35X-HB 15 BA35X-HF 5 BA35X-HG 2 BA35X-HH 6+ BA35X-MD fans 1 BA35X-MG 1 70-32155-01 1 70-31490-01 3 DS BA35X-DA 5 DS-RZ1CB-VW blue 2 DWZZA-VW 11 DWZZB-VW 4 RZ24-E 12 RZ25-E 3 RZ26-E 5 RZ28-VA 19 RZ29-VW 3 SHD3-ZZ 4 SHG23-NF netframe 1 SHX37-NF 1 SHZH1-BH From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Sep 6 14:17:24 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 12:17:24 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <4E655776.10406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 9/5/11 4:12 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 09/05/2011 06:37 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >>> Just checked, and the earliest parts a 29xx/39xx will program is the 2716, >>> ie. >>> they don't support 2708's. >> >> If you are looking to program those with a data IO programmer, then the 29B >> or model 19 are the most modern ones that support those IIRC. > > Nope, the UniSite definitely does. I have the supported device list > for the v8.1 (kinda old, 2006) software sitting in front of me. > > -Dave I stand corrected. From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Sep 6 14:17:09 2011 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 13:17:09 -0600 Subject: at&t 3b1, pc7300 Message-ID: <4E6671B5.2010108@e-bbes.com> Hi all, acquired few boxes with 3b1 & pc7300 stuff. Anybody is looking for parts or complete units? Cheers, emanuel From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Sep 6 14:18:34 2011 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 13:18:34 -0600 Subject: hp 9000/382 Message-ID: <4E66720A.8080805@e-bbes.com> Hi all, where could I find media for Pascal and basic for them? Preferably .iso images? Any chance, to find HP-UX for them? Cheers & Thanks From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 6 14:19:58 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 12:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 7470A plotter -- repairing/replacing paper feed rollers In-Reply-To: <4E66093D.19368.D2FFDE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4E66093D.19368.D2FFDE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110906121644.V1907@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 6 Sep 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The point is, if we can get LN2 for the kitchen, certainly one can > get dry ice in the UK if one is determined. How much do you need? Can you still get CO2 fire extinguishers? Put a sleeve from a wool shirt over the nozzle and blast. You will get a LITTLE. Around here, you can even get it from "Party supply" stores! Used for "fog" machines RV supply places USED TO carry it, but I guess that mobile refrigerators have become almost usable. From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Sep 6 14:27:21 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 12:27:21 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Digging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/6/11 11:12 AM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> The model II used full height 8 inch drives, I'm pretty sure that they were >> AC powered (*motor*) the stepper was powered by 12 or 24 vdc IIRC > > Most 8" drives have AC spindle motors, all the ones I own do. But there's > a mentiuon of a 24V DC spindle motor in the manuals for some drives, so I > guess they existed. It's pretty easy to tell which you have by looking at > the drive thoguh. > > Most 8" drives ran the head stepper motor from 24V I think. > > Many 8" drives also need a -ve supply (-12V or -5V, in the former case it > may well be regulated down to -5V on the drive PCB) for the analogue > seciton (read amplifier, etc). If that's mising you migth get a drive > that won't read, but that rail may well mot be essential for any other > part of the machine to work. Worth checking all supply voltages at the drive. > > -tony > The drives in the trs-80 model 6000, 16 and 12 had 24V spindle motors IIRC, they were tandon TM848-2 drives. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 6 14:36:16 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 12:36:16 -0700 Subject: at&t 3b1, pc7300 In-Reply-To: <4E6671B5.2010108@e-bbes.com> References: <4E6671B5.2010108@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4E667630.7060303@bitsavers.org> On 9/6/11 12:17 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > acquired few boxes with 3b1 & pc7300 stuff. Anybody is looking for parts or complete units? > Cheers, > emanuel > Philip Pemberton was looking for some things to help him finish his simulator. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Sep 6 14:40:05 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 21:40:05 +0200 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E649301.14625.6B8B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E64FB28.5000002@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20110906214005.97817d6a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 12:39:04 -0400 Toby Thain wrote: > People get electrocuted frequently while trying to steal live wires. This happened in a city near by. That Idiot (C) (R) (TM) tried to steal a live 20,000 V three phase cable. He got almost cremationed... ... and half of the city was dark. => Darwin Award candidate. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 6 14:41:37 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 12:41:37 -0700 Subject: hp 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <4E66720A.8080805@e-bbes.com> References: <4E66720A.8080805@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4E667771.6090505@bitsavers.org> On 9/6/11 12:18 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > where could I find media for Pascal and basic for them? > Preferably .iso images? > The HP Museum should have floppy images. I would be interested in CD images if they exist for Pascal and Basic for the 382. I've only ever seen floppies and 9844 tapes. > Any chance, to find HP-UX for them? > CHM did get a release from HP for all 68000 9000 series software, so that should include Unix. There was some question about Rocky Mountain BASIC, since it was sold to Test & Measurement Systems, Inc. in 1998 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 6 14:44:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 12:44:45 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Digging In-Reply-To: References: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Sep 5, 11 03:36:10 pm, Message-ID: <4E6615BD.31557.103D5E2@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2011 at 19:12, Tony Duell wrote: > > The model II used full height 8 inch drives, I'm pretty sure that > > they were AC powered (*motor*) the stepper was powered by 12 or 24 > > vdc IIRC Some later Model IIs, particularly in their Model 16 incarnation, used half-height Tandon 848 drives. When they work, they're fine, but there are a couple of design deficiencies that often kick up problems. The drive uses 24V for the positioner and head-load, but appears to use 12V for the spindle motor. The 12V is obtained via a TO-220 7812 regulator that is inadequately heat-sinked. Fortunately, there's a fuse as well as a 10 ohm resistor in series with the 24V line, as the input capacitor to the regulator often fails )probably from the regulator heat) as well. In any case, the 7812 tends to run very hot and some drives have shunt resistors across the 7812.. > Many 8" drives also need a -ve supply (-12V or -5V, in the former case > it may well be regulated down to -5V on the drive PCB) for the > analogue seciton (read amplifier, etc). If that's mising you migth get > a drive that won't read, but that rail may well mot be essential for > any other part of the machine to work. Worth checking all supply > voltages at the drive. The Model II was a late 1979 introduction; I'd be very surprised if any 8" drives manufactured at that time required a -5V supply. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 6 14:45:18 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 12:45:18 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <20110906101214.U1907@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> <1315311055.18781.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <20110906101214.U1907@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E66784E.706@bitsavers.org> On 9/6/11 10:31 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 6 Sep 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> * The API (libdiscferret) is basically complete; the Trivial API needs >> finalising and implementing, but that's about it. > > For users who program at a slightly "higher" software level, it would be > VERY nice to have a supplemental "mid-level" API that provides the > functions of INT13h, starting with function 2 "read sector(s)" > How would you define the size and format of the sector being written? From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Sep 6 15:00:02 2011 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 14:00:02 -0600 Subject: at&t 3b1, pc7300 In-Reply-To: <4E667630.7060303@bitsavers.org> References: <4E6671B5.2010108@e-bbes.com> <4E667630.7060303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E667BC2.7000309@e-bbes.com> On 2011-09-06 13:36, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/6/11 12:17 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> Hi all, >> acquired few boxes with 3b1 & pc7300 stuff. Anybody is looking for >> parts or complete units? >> Cheers, >> emanuel >> > > Philip Pemberton was looking for some things to help him finish his > simulator. I would love to help him, as I'm interested in the emulator to. But shipping is the problem. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 6 15:10:10 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 21:10:10 +0100 Subject: More house cleaning... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01ef01cc6cd0$fc5618c0$f5024a40$@ntlworld.com> > 12 RZ25-E > 3 RZ26-E Potentially interested in some RZ25s and RZ26s. Not familiar with the -E suffix, are these just the HDD or are they in an expansion cabinet? I am in the UK so weight and bulk means only the HDD and only a small number I fear. Any idea what the shipping might be to UK post code SK8 7LF? Regards Rob From useddec at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 15:17:29 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 15:17:29 -0500 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap.... Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local Unibus system because the owner was worried about "environmental liability", and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this several times now. Paul On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 12:59 PM, jim s wrote: >> On 9/4/11 10:56 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> >>> more people will realize that the old accounting system that's been >>> taking up room in the back >> >> > of the warehouse may be worth more than metal scrap >> >> With gold over $1000/oz, has anyone figured out what the real scrap value >> of something like a 7090 >> or 360 currently is for the copper and precious metals? >> >> That is what you're fighting against, and it has been the same since the >> 70's. >> >> If anyone notices the amount of copper and gold in an old box in the back >> room, it is gone. > > This fleabay auction, 270808374360 claims to have backplane parts for > palladium metal scrap value, by the way, someone else mentioned rhodium, who > knows what else in the parts as well. > > With gold as the leading metal these days if someone gets hold of it the > cheapest scrapping process is cyanide for gold, and I doubt that the other > rare earths and metals are looked for. ?They are pretty tricky to pull out > of the mess that remains after a cyanide high grading process w/o killing > ones' self. > > A lot of the ones I knew had places "somewhere" which they went with their > scrap, and they powdered the material and did the process. ?I suspect the > residue cyanide was and is dumped near that spot. ?If one tries that in a > legal method, I don't know if you'd make any money after you pay the costs > of doing it in such a way as not to kill yourself, and legally dispose of > the residue. > > We cleaned a lab in Newport Beach legally (where one list member works) and > for about 15# of alcohol and acids it cost around $4500 for the disposal. > > Each 55 gallon drum disposal was around $500 for low grade stuff (material > which was not things you could dump down the sink, but could put in a > disposal drum and not kill people). > > obviously people extract gold value, but I always found that those who did > so to be pretty slimy folk (the actual metal extraction people). ?Walked > funny and talked with a slur, and worried about black helicopters following > them. > Jim > From jws at jwsss.com Tue Sep 6 15:17:55 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 13:17:55 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E66784E.706@bitsavers.org> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> <1315311055.18781.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <20110906101214.U1907@shell.lmi.net> <4E66784E.706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E667FF3.3090005@jwsss.com> > On 9/6/11 10:31 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Tue, 6 Sep 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: >>> * The API (libdiscferret) is basically complete; the Trivial API needs >>> finalising and implementing, but that's about it. >> >> For users who program at a slightly "higher" software level, it would be >> VERY nice to have a supplemental "mid-level" API that provides the >> functions of INT13h, starting with function 2 "read sector(s)" >> > > How would you define the size and format of the sector being written? Something similar to the scsi interface would be a better abstraction for the software inteface, I would think, since there are scsi stacks that can target devices available on most platforms. IDE could be supported for drives with 512 byte sectors as well, since its format is so close to scsi. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 15:24:39 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 15:24:39 -0500 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: wait what? On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap.... > > Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local Unibus > system because the owner was worried about "environmental liability", > and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this several times now. > > Paul > > On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 12:59 PM, jim s wrote: > >> On 9/4/11 10:56 PM, Ian King wrote: > >>> > >>> more people will realize that the old accounting system that's been > >>> taking up room in the back > >> > >> > of the warehouse may be worth more than metal scrap > >> > >> With gold over $1000/oz, has anyone figured out what the real scrap > value > >> of something like a 7090 > >> or 360 currently is for the copper and precious metals? > >> > >> That is what you're fighting against, and it has been the same since the > >> 70's. > >> > >> If anyone notices the amount of copper and gold in an old box in the > back > >> room, it is gone. > > > > This fleabay auction, 270808374360 claims to have backplane parts for > > palladium metal scrap value, by the way, someone else mentioned rhodium, > who > > knows what else in the parts as well. > > > > With gold as the leading metal these days if someone gets hold of it the > > cheapest scrapping process is cyanide for gold, and I doubt that the > other > > rare earths and metals are looked for. They are pretty tricky to pull > out > > of the mess that remains after a cyanide high grading process w/o killing > > ones' self. > > > > A lot of the ones I knew had places "somewhere" which they went with > their > > scrap, and they powdered the material and did the process. I suspect the > > residue cyanide was and is dumped near that spot. If one tries that in a > > legal method, I don't know if you'd make any money after you pay the > costs > > of doing it in such a way as not to kill yourself, and legally dispose of > > the residue. > > > > We cleaned a lab in Newport Beach legally (where one list member works) > and > > for about 15# of alcohol and acids it cost around $4500 for the disposal. > > > > Each 55 gallon drum disposal was around $500 for low grade stuff > (material > > which was not things you could dump down the sink, but could put in a > > disposal drum and not kill people). > > > > obviously people extract gold value, but I always found that those who > did > > so to be pretty slimy folk (the actual metal extraction people). Walked > > funny and talked with a slur, and worried about black helicopters > following > > them. > > Jim > > > > From spedraja at ono.com Tue Sep 6 15:26:17 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:26:17 +0200 Subject: at&t 3b1, pc7300 In-Reply-To: <4E6671B5.2010108@e-bbes.com> References: <4E6671B5.2010108@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: I have one 3b1 and one 3b2/400. I'm searching for parts for the 3b1. More exactly, one Lan Board, one memory expansion and one Hard Disk for replacement (in case of death of the actual). For the 3b2 I'm searching for one SCSI board and one Lan board. Other goodings are welcome too. In both case I'm searching for one Development System (C Compiler and so) in diskette format (720k 5.25, If I remember). I live in Spain. Regards Sergio 2011/9/6 emanuel stiebler > Hi all, > acquired few boxes with 3b1 & pc7300 stuff. Anybody is looking for parts or > complete units? > Cheers, > emanuel > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 6 15:27:13 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 13:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E66784E.706@bitsavers.org> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> <1315311055.18781.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <20110906101214.U1907@shell.lmi.net> <4E66784E.706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20110906130451.S1907@shell.lmi.net> > > For users who program at a slightly "higher" software level, it would be > > VERY nice to have a supplemental "mid-level" API that provides the > > functions of INT13h, starting with function 2 "read sector(s)" On Tue, 6 Sep 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > How would you define the size and format of the sector being written? Well, I did say "READ" :-) which would either require some sophisticated analysis, or passing the expected info TO the code. I would add additional parameter(s) to the INT1Eh structure. For conventional MFM "IBM/WD" sectors, that already includes the sector size (0,1,2,3). Add another parameter(s) for MFM V other formats. If done well (yeah, right!), the reulting code could be a drop-in replacement to hook the 13h vector to, for OS and utility software (XenoCopy, etc.) that would otherwise call INT13h. For those not familiar with it: INT13h calls for pointing INT1Eh at a data structure with certain physical parameters. Then uses most of the general purpose registers to pass drive, head, track^H^H^H^H^H cylinder, sector, address of the DMA buffer, etc. On return, the accumulator has an error code. This INT13h surrogate would be another layer on top of the DiscFerret code. It would seek to the appropriate track, call the DiscFerret code to read the track, separate the date, decode, decipher the MFM sector headers, and copy the decoded sector contents into the specified buffer location. It also certainly shouldnt't be "hard" (in some meanings of "hard") to analyze the raw flux transitions, and recognize whether what is there is compatible with a WD/IBM style MFM, and look at the sector headers to report what sectors are there. Similar code could be done for FM, Amiga (MFM without the sector headers), GCRs, MMFM, and maybe some others. If what is there is compatible with MULTIPLE formats???? then it's up to you to speculate. If what is there is NOT compatible any known formats, then it's up to you to abandon all hope before entering. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 6 15:30:38 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:30:38 +0200 Subject: hp 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <4E667771.6090505@bitsavers.org> References: <4E66720A.8080805@e-bbes.com> <4E667771.6090505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000901cc6cd3$da9467c0$8fbd3740$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Al Kossow > Verzonden: dinsdag 6 september 2011 21:42 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: hp 9000/382 > > On 9/6/11 12:18 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > Hi all, > > where could I find media for Pascal and basic for them? > > Preferably .iso images? > > > > The HP Museum should have floppy images. I would be interested in CD images > if they exist for Pascal and Basic for the 382. > I've only ever seen floppies and 9844 tapes. > > > Any chance, to find HP-UX for them? > > > > CHM did get a release from HP for all 68000 9000 series software, so that should > include Unix. There was some question about Rocky Mountain BASIC, since it > was sold to Test & Measurement Systems, Inc. in 1998 I do have the HP-UX CD 9.XX and I think 10.X but I have to check that. -Rik From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Sep 6 15:30:43 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 21:30:43 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E65D6F0.26000.E83B2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> , <710A077E3AF14D629427D86EB9E2812A@portajara> <4E65D6F0.26000.E83B2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1315341043.4955.8.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> On Tue, 2011-09-06 at 08:16 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The problem with this, as people who discovered that 5.25" 2D > floppies "bulk erased", then formatted in a 1.2M drive (alternate > tracks), then read in a 360K (48tpi) drives still had the background > "noise" and so didn't work. Guess why this is WAY down on the "to do" list... :) > Nothing substitutes for a genuine bulk eraser/degausser. Nothing. > One may as well have done a DOS FORMAT for all the good it would have > done. I'd rather like to get my hands on a degausser but it seems the audiophools have pushed the prices up to silly levels around here... and I don't have a suitable transformer to chop up to make one. There are a couple of cheap permanent magnet degaussers around, though I was under the impression these actually *magnetise* the media, or the opposite of what a "proper" degausser does... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From useddec at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 15:35:18 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 15:35:18 -0500 Subject: More house cleaning... In-Reply-To: <01ef01cc6cd0$fc5618c0$f5024a40$@ntlworld.com> References: <01ef01cc6cd0$fc5618c0$f5024a40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hi Rob, USPS has a flat rate box, max 20# for $45. I'll try to check with Fed Ex later. Cheers, Paul On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> 12 ? ? ? ? ? ?RZ25-E >> 3 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?RZ26-E > > Potentially interested in some RZ25s and RZ26s. Not familiar with the -E > suffix, are these just the HDD or are they in an expansion cabinet? I am in > the UK so weight and bulk means only the HDD and only a small number I fear. > Any idea what the shipping might be to UK post code SK8 7LF? > > Regards > > Rob > > > From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Sep 6 15:42:30 2011 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 14:42:30 -0600 Subject: hp 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <000901cc6cd3$da9467c0$8fbd3740$@xs4all.nl> References: <4E66720A.8080805@e-bbes.com> <4E667771.6090505@bitsavers.org> <000901cc6cd3$da9467c0$8fbd3740$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4E6685B6.6090907@e-bbes.com> On 2011-09-06 14:30, Rik Bos wrote: > I do have the HP-UX CD 9.XX and I think 10.X but I have to check that. I think the 8.x was the last supporting the 68k architecture? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 6 15:54:27 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 13:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E667FF3.3090005@jwsss.com> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> <1315311055.18781.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <20110906101214.U1907@shell.lmi.net> <4E66784E.706@bitsavers.org> <4E667FF3.3090005@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20110906134649.Q1907@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 6 Sep 2011, jim s wrote: > Something similar to the scsi interface would be a better abstraction > for the software inteface, I would think, since there are scsi stacks > that can target devices available on most platforms. For hard drives, probaby. For looking at alien FLOPPIES, I don't want ABSTRACTION past cylinder, head, and sector! > IDE could be supported for drives with 512 byte sectors as well, since > its format is so close to scsi. I wouldn't know. IDE is based on ST506/412, with its INT13h access. But, whatever works for you! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 6 16:06:37 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 14:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <20110906134649.Q1907@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> <1315311055.18781.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <20110906101214.U1907@shell.lmi.net> <4E66784E.706@bitsavers.org> <4E667FF3.3090005@jwsss.com> <20110906134649.Q1907@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110906140342.V1907@shell.lmi.net> > > Something similar to the scsi interface would be a better abstraction > > for the software inteface, I would think, since there are scsi stacks > > that can target devices available on most platforms. I may have misinterpreted your remark. I'm talking about a layer IMMEDIATELY on top of the DiscFerret code, to change from track read to sector read. Were you talking about a layer near the host machine? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 6 16:11:13 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 14:11:13 -0700 Subject: Floppy Images (was Re: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale!) In-Reply-To: <20110906140342.V1907@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk> <1315311055.18781.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <20110906101214.U1907@shell.lmi.net> <4E66784E.706@bitsavers.org> <4E667FF3.3090005@jwsss.com> <20110906134649.Q1907@shell.lmi.net> <20110906140342.V1907@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E668C71.1090307@bitsavers.org> On 9/6/11 2:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Something similar to the scsi interface would be a better abstraction >>> for the software inteface, I would think, since there are scsi stacks >>> that can target devices available on most platforms. > > I may have misinterpreted your remark. > I'm talking about a layer IMMEDIATELY on top of the DiscFerret code, to > change from track read to sector read. > This reminded me to ask, did anyone write a DOS driver that could interpret floppy disk images on a DOS device? From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 6 16:24:22 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 23:24:22 +0200 Subject: hp 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <4E6685B6.6090907@e-bbes.com> References: <4E66720A.8080805@e-bbes.com> <4E667771.6090505@bitsavers.org> <000901cc6cd3$da9467c0$8fbd3740$@xs4all.nl> <4E6685B6.6090907@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <000a01cc6cdb$5bd0f400$1372dc00$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens emanuel stiebler > Verzonden: dinsdag 6 september 2011 22:42 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: hp 9000/382 > > On 2011-09-06 14:30, Rik Bos wrote: > > > I do have the HP-UX CD 9.XX and I think 10.X but I have to check that. > > I think the 8.x was the last supporting the 68k architecture? No it's HP-UX 9.10 and you can use it at the 300/400 series. The 10.x is the latest for the 700 series. -Rik From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Sep 6 16:21:33 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:21:33 +0100 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: <201109061852.p86IqL1f057573@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4e650361.a39dec0a.4519.26d0@mx.google.com> <4E653D1A.2080905@dunnington.plus.com> <201109061852.p86IqL1f057573@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E668EDD.9090601@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/09/2011 19:50, John Foust wrote: > At 04:20 PM 9/5/2011, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> I've been thinking along those lines for my ASR33. It's got a lot of old sticky lubricant all over the typing unit, and I heard recently of one that was dunked. Mine doesn't always work reliably when it's cold, but usually is OK after running for a while and has warmed up. What do people think about that? > > It's certainly a FAQ on the Greenkeys list: > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/greenkeys/ > > Yes, dunk it, then re-lube. Thanks -- I've not read much of the archives but it looks like I should :-) I was reasonably sure it would be OK, providing a good rinse with clean(ish) paraffin (kerosene) removes the last gunk. A friend had a professional maintainer look at one of his recently and I'm told that's what he did, so I guess it's a case of rinse well, drain well, re-lube carefully. I was just wondering about the electrics, some of which won't like the dunk. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 6 17:19:34 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 15:19:34 -0700 Subject: at&t 3b1, pc7300 In-Reply-To: References: <4E6671B5.2010108@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4E669C76.8050903@brouhaha.com> SPC wrote: > I have one 3b1 and one 3b2/400. I'm searching for parts for the 3b1. More > exactly, one Lan Board, There are two different, incompatible LAN boards. 1) There is a StarLAN 1 (802.3e, 1base5) adapter, which does 1 Mbps over twisted pair, and is not compatible with anything but other StarLAN 1 products. This does NOT interoperate with any common 10Mbps, 100 Mbps, or 1Gbps Ethernet products. In other words, while it is technically a form of Ethernet, it isn't really the kind of Ethernet that anyone actually uses. The adapter uses an Intel 82586 chip. The software does not support TCP/IP. This card is somewhat rare, and IMNSHO mostly useless. 2) There is a 10Mbps Ethernet adapter, using an AMD Am7990 "LANCE" chip, with a kludgey TCP/IP stack from Wollongong. The board has an AUI interface, so you'll need an external transceiver (e.g., 10base2 or 10baseT). This card is extremely rare. The software only supports IP Class A/B/C addressing, and does NOT support subnets (or CIDR). To deal with the 7300/3b1 and other hosts with ancient network stacks that don't properly handle subnets, I added a "bozo-arp" feature to the Telebit Netblazer router, and later wrote a daemon for use on a BSD or Linux box. It works by automatically generating a proxy ARP response for any ARP request received on an interface but not within the configured subnet for that interface. Eric From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Sep 6 17:20:11 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 15:20:11 -0700 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <4E56EC3A.90606@brouhaha.com> References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E56EC3A.90606@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201109061520.12185.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday, August 25, 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > Christian Liendo wrote: > > Just interesting that that WSJ picked this up > > > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.html > > So Mr. Allen didn't want a 7090? That seems rather picky, as they're > quite similar machines, other than that the 7090 didn't have the extra > index registers. I was part of the email conversation with Allen's team discussing this matter (before, during and after a member of Allen's team traveled to Australia to look at what was supposed to be an "IBM 7094"). One of Paul Allen's goals is to get CTSS running on a 7094. It turns out that software is available for CTSS on the 7094 and not the 7090. See: http://www.multicians.org/thvv/7094.html We discussed the possibility of converting a 7090 to a 7094 - but those of us familiar with the process said that was nearly impossible. When a customer wanted to upgrade from a 7090 to a 7094, the factory would send a team to the customer - along with a 7094 CPU. The team would then spend about a week (IIRC) rewire-wrapping the other 7090 frames that needed to modified for the upgrade. Given that just getting a 7090 or 7094 running in itself is a major effort, the additional challenge of attempting to upgrade a 7090 to a 7094 is for all practical purposes impossible. > "Soldered with silver and gold"? All of them I've seen use normal > tin-lead solder. I thought silver solder was mostly used for jewelery, > plumbing, and high-temperature stuff, which wouldn't usually be found in > computers. Tektronix used silver solder in their 5xx series of scopes. The reason - ceramic terminal strips - and silver binds to ceramic. I have personal experience of silver being used by the military for microwave waveguides, etc. It wouldn't surprise me to find silver used in certain military computer applications... --snip-- Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 6 16:06:01 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:06:01 +0100 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! References: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> <20110828203136.N49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E463DE1A10E45D583DF09A78DB60E95@dell8300> <029d01cc69d2$abdc9370$8efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E6188CE.8060807@neurotica.com> <4E618A34.8000303@jetnet.ab.ca> <01df01cc6a94$84c70000$39fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E62CFA5.7080908@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <013501cc6ce3$ea553350$50fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ben" To: Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 2:08 AM Subject: Re: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! > On 9/3/2011 5:44 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > Is that an example or something that actually happened? I say that, because > > my old geocities site is still up - though I can't update it at all without > > transferring to their new "service". > > > > As a surfer, I have to assume they are deleted since they are not on line. > Most of geocities I hit, are the one page, "I built this tube *** amp" or > "I found this $5 speaker and here it is after refinishing". > Mine is a mixture of videogaming news, videogame consoles (largely Sega & Nintendo, though I have a few pages on the Phantom console too) and pages based around Phantasy Star Online - with pictures of some of the creatures from the game and pics of mine & my mates characters. It was initially coded on my Sega Dreamcast games console (which was how I first got access to the internet at home). If anyone is bored, or is interested in seeing it you can find it here: http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 6 16:35:00 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:35:00 +0100 Subject: "Zilog 6502" in _IEEE Computer_ References: <4E63424F.13674.1C1610@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 4, 11 09:18:07 am, <4E6350A2.30417.5409FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E63B7CB.2050705@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <013801cc6ce3$f79ba350$50fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 6:39 PM Subject: "Zilog 6502" in _IEEE Computer_ > Chuck wrote: > > Neural rot, dammit. Just like the IBM product manager in last > > month's IEEE Computer who refers to the "Zilog 6502". > > I guess that's the next (il)logical step from the "Mostek 6502". Next > up: the "Intel 6502". > Sigh. > > I've seen references on the Internet and in books to both the "Zilog > 8080" and the "Intel Z80". > Who did create the original 6502 and 8080? I know the original Z80 was by Zilog (hence the Z!). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 6 17:50:39 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 15:50:39 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <1315341043.4955.8.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk>, <4E65D6F0.26000.E83B2@cclist.sydex.com>, <1315341043.4955.8.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4E66414F.6531.A7CAA6@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2011 at 21:30, Philip Pemberton wrote: > There are a couple of cheap permanent magnet degaussers around, though > I was under the impression these actually *magnetise* the media, or > the opposite of what a "proper" degausser does... Well, there is a form that was used on some tape recorders that took two right-triangle-shaped permanent magnets of opposite poles and mount them hypotenuse-to-hypotenuse and the tape dragged over the pair, but that's sort of impractical for floppies. A very workable solution is to find a VHS cartridge AC eraser. Radio Shack, at one time sold a really nice one for less than $30. Works like a charm. There *must* still be others out there for those wishing to dispose of their own home-made porno tapes... --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 6 17:54:38 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 16:54:38 -0600 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E66414F.6531.A7CAA6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E617C42.8050901@philpem.me.uk>, <4E65D6F0.26000.E83B2@cclist.sydex.com>, <1315341043.4955.8.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> <4E66414F.6531.A7CAA6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E66A4AE.9060905@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/6/2011 4:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A very workable solution is to find a VHS cartridge AC eraser. Radio > Shack, at one time sold a really nice one for less than $30. Works > like a charm. There *must* still be others out there for those > wishing to dispose of their own home-made porno tapes... I'll take them off your hands ... > --Chuck So now we know the real reason why you want to find data on old drives ... Ben. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 6 18:02:32 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 16:02:32 -0700 Subject: "Zilog 6502" in _IEEE Computer_ In-Reply-To: <013801cc6ce3$f79ba350$50fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4E63424F.13674.1C1610@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 4, 11 09:18:07 am, <4E6350A2.30417.5409FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E63B7CB.2050705@brouhaha.com> <013801cc6ce3$f79ba350$50fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4E66A688.9040809@brouhaha.com> Andrew Burton wrote: > Who did create the original 6502 and 8080? I know the original Z80 was by > Zilog (hence the Z!). 8080: Intel 6502: MOS Technology (a company entirely unrelated to Mostek) Mostek never made a 6502 (or related parts), but was a licensed second source for the Zilog Z80 family, Fairchild F8 family, and Motorola MC68000 family. Mostek developed the MK3870 series single-chip microcontrollers based on the F8. Mostek was originally was a fab partner for Zilog, before Zilog built their own fab (contrary to the Wikipedia claim that Western Design Center was the first fabless semiconductor company). Nevertheless, there are a zillion web sites that claim that MOSTEK made the 6502. Zilog never made the 6502 either. From spedraja at ono.com Tue Sep 6 18:22:38 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 01:22:38 +0200 Subject: at&t 3b1, pc7300 In-Reply-To: <4E669C76.8050903@brouhaha.com> References: <4E6671B5.2010108@e-bbes.com> <4E669C76.8050903@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Eric. And I must say ' good job', by the way (with the ARP). Regards Sergio 2011/9/7 Eric Smith > SPC wrote: > > I have one 3b1 and one 3b2/400. I'm searching for parts for the 3b1. More > > exactly, one Lan Board, > > There are two different, incompatible LAN boards. > > 1) There is a StarLAN 1 (802.3e, 1base5) adapter, which does 1 Mbps over > twisted pair, and is not compatible with anything but other StarLAN 1 > products. This does NOT interoperate with any common 10Mbps, 100 Mbps, or > 1Gbps Ethernet products. In other words, while it is technically a form of > Ethernet, it isn't really the kind of Ethernet that anyone actually uses. > The adapter uses an Intel 82586 chip. The software does not support > TCP/IP. This card is somewhat rare, and IMNSHO mostly useless. > > 2) There is a 10Mbps Ethernet adapter, using an AMD Am7990 "LANCE" chip, > with a kludgey TCP/IP stack from Wollongong. The board has an AUI > interface, so you'll need an external transceiver (e.g., 10base2 or > 10baseT). This card is extremely rare. The software only supports IP Class > A/B/C addressing, and does NOT support subnets (or CIDR). > > > To deal with the 7300/3b1 and other hosts with ancient network stacks that > don't properly handle subnets, I added a "bozo-arp" feature to the Telebit > Netblazer router, and later wrote a daemon for use on a BSD or Linux box. > It works by automatically generating a proxy ARP response for any ARP > request received on an interface but not within the configured subnet for > that interface. > > Eric > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 20:11:41 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 21:11:41 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap.... Loewen might correct me, but I do not think any of the SAGE stuff had much in the wait of precious metals, except perhaps some gold in some of the tubes. -- Will From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Sep 6 18:30:45 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 19:30:45 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E66AD25.3040402@telegraphics.com.au> On 06/09/11 4:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap.... > > Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local Unibus > system because the owner was worried about "environmental liability", > and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this several times now. This is absurd bullshit and very sad. --Toby > > Paul > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 6 21:10:29 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:10:29 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> <4E66AD25.3040402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <342A45AABCA04EC0BF8336ACFECD9E13@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 7:30 PM Subject: Re: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) > On 06/09/11 4:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap.... >> >> Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local Unibus >> system because the owner was worried about "environmental liability", >> and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this several times now. > > This is absurd bullshit and very sad. > > --Toby > >> >> Paul >> I guess somebody could rip out the gold/copper and leave the rest in some ditch to decay and release the old lead solder and other heavy metals. Maybe the rotting machine can be traced back to the original owner getting them into trouble (easier to do with an expensive old mainframe then a C64 anyway). From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Sep 6 21:34:42 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:34:42 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <342A45AABCA04EC0BF8336ACFECD9E13@dell8300> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> <4E66AD25.3040402@telegraphics.com.au> <342A45AABCA04EC0BF8336ACFECD9E13@dell8300> Message-ID: <4E66D842.5070307@telegraphics.com.au> On 06/09/11 10:10 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 7:30 PM > Subject: Re: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, > 500 Pounds?) > > >> On 06/09/11 4:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >>> I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap.... >>> >>> Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local Unibus >>> system because the owner was worried about "environmental liability", >>> and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this several times now. >> >> This is absurd bullshit and very sad. >> >> --Toby >> >>> >>> Paul >>> > > I guess somebody could rip out the gold/copper and leave the rest in > some ditch to decay and release the old lead solder and other heavy > metals. Maybe the rotting machine can be traced back to the original > owner getting them into trouble (easier to do with an expensive old > mainframe then a C64 anyway). > > > I too can imagine tortuous, paranoid thinking that might lead somebody to act that way. Doesn't make it any less ridiculous :) --Toby From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Sep 6 21:59:46 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:59:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Sep 2011, William Donzelli wrote: >> I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap.... > > Loewen might correct me, but I do not think any of the SAGE stuff had > much in the wait of precious metals, except perhaps some gold in some > of the tubes. Well, the core memory plane contacts were all gold plated and I believe the Pluggable Unit contacts were, as well. Have to check the spares cabinet... > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 6 22:23:59 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 23:23:59 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <58C46F5907824949B28939AA0B78AFA5@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Loewen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:59 PM Subject: Re: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) > On Tue, 6 Sep 2011, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap.... >> >> Loewen might correct me, but I do not think any of the SAGE stuff had >> much in the wait of precious metals, except perhaps some gold in some >> of the tubes. > > Well, the core memory plane contacts were all gold plated and I believe > the Pluggable Unit contacts were, as well. Have to check the spares > cabinet... >> > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ The websites for gold recovery pretty much say anything gold plated (unless it is over sterling silver that is recoverable) isn't worth the energy to recover. Gold plating is so precise these days you can plate a layer a few atoms thick. I figured some chips had gold interconnects so melting a small pile of them would get you a decent amount of gold after chemical separation. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 6 22:27:49 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 23:27:49 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> <4E66AD25.3040402@telegraphics.com.au> <342A45AABCA04EC0BF8336ACFECD9E13@dell8300> <4E66D842.5070307@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <0C7814B26CF14002B7DD79A2A1372CE4@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:34 PM Subject: Re: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) > > I too can imagine tortuous, paranoid thinking that might lead somebody > to act that way. Doesn't make it any less ridiculous :) > > --Toby Well any company that would have that machine would be worried about selling something (even for a few grand) that might cost them much more down the road if not disposed of properly especially in states like CA. So some places just pay to get it recycled at a place with a good paperwork trail. From useddec at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 22:50:43 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 22:50:43 -0500 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: 3 million watts, 2 of which were for the computer. I seem to recall a LOT of copper buss bars. On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 8:11 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap.... > > Loewen might correct me, but I do not think any of the SAGE stuff had > much in the wait of precious metals, except perhaps some gold in some > of the tubes. > > -- > Will > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 6 22:51:34 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 20:51:34 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E66AD25.3040402@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, , <4E66AD25.3040402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E6687D6.7580.77424@cclist.sydex.com> On 06/09/11 4:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap.... > > Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local Unibus > system because the owner was worried about "environmental > liability", and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this > several times now. Is this the sort of thinking that RoHS engenders? --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 7 00:35:55 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:35:55 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E6702BB.8030708@brouhaha.com> Dave wrote: > Nope, the UniSite definitely does [support the 2708 EPROM]. > I have the supported device list > for the v8.1 (kinda old, 2006) software sitting in front of me. It's never been clear to me whether the difference in device support between the Unisite, 2900, 3900, and 3980 is due to actual hardware differences, or just "product differentiation" in the software. While it's certainly possible that the 2900 hardware can't deal with the 2708, it seems somewhat unlikely. At the time they designed the 2900, the kind of corners that they could have cut that would have rendered the hardware incapable of dealing with the 2708 would have been too likely to also cause it to be be unsuitable for (then) future programmable logic devices. In any case, if you get a good deal on a Unisite, they're quite useful since they can program some parts that the 2900/3900/3980 cannot. The rev 12 and newer are best, but for programming old parts, even the earlier ones are fine. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 7 00:36:48 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:36:48 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E6702F0.6010300@brouhaha.com> Paul Anderson wrote: > Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local Unibus > system because the owner was worried about "environmental liability", > and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this several times now. It is unfortunately not a new twist, though it is more common now than it was 20 years ago. All the owner needed to to do deal with potential liability is to have you sign a statement that you would dispose of it in accordance with all applicable laws and regulations. The "dispose" part might not occur until *many* years later, but that doesn't matter. Sigh. From jonas at otter.se Tue Sep 6 04:39:54 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 11:39:54 +0200 Subject: Train shipping ( was Re: VT fixums ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26e2b97766f55af0dc1a47bde55cdd15@otter.se> On Mon, 5 Sep 2011 21:21:32 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> > An AR88 (RCA communcations receiver) >> You *carried* an AR88 on a train??? They weigh, what, 45 kgs? You >> must > > Well, I didn't hold it for the netire journey, if that's what you > mean. > It sat on the luggage rack between Bristol and London... I hope not the overhead rack? I certainly wouldn't like to take an AR-88 down from an overhead luggage rack, let alone putting it up there, and certainly not having it fall out if something happened... Brrr... But even carrying it *to* the train wouldn't be particularly fun, with a cart or trolley I might consider it. > >> work out a lot... > > I am insulted! I have spent my entire life avoiding exercise, and I > don't > intend changing that. I have never done any uncnessary exercise. > No offence meant! :-) > The only 'working out' I do is how to fix classic computers (etc), > how to > design bits of electronics, and so on. > > >> I used to have a BC-312M. I really regret having got rid of it. That >> was >> a nice piece of equipment.Not quite as heavy as the AR88 but quite >> heavy >> enough to break your foot if you dropped it on one of them. The foot >> would be severely damaged but not the BC-312M... > > And that's the way it should be. You foot will mend itself, the > receiver > will not > Hmm, I'm not sure there would be a lot left of my foot to mend if a BC-312 fell on it from any height... /Jonas From philpem at philpem.me.uk Tue Sep 6 15:55:42 2011 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 21:55:42 +0100 Subject: at&t 3b1, pc7300 In-Reply-To: <4E667BC2.7000309@e-bbes.com> References: <4E6671B5.2010108@e-bbes.com> <4E667630.7060303@bitsavers.org> <4E667BC2.7000309@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <1315342542.4955.10.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> On Tue, 2011-09-06 at 14:00 -0600, emanuel stiebler wrote: > I would love to help him, as I'm interested in the emulator to. But > shipping is the problem. Are any American classiccmp-ers planning a visit to the Land of Earl Grey and Scones in the not too distant future? :) I'd really like to get FreeBee finished, but without the timing data from the memory mapper, it's a non-starter... :( -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From useddec at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 02:08:56 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 02:08:56 -0500 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E6702F0.6010300@brouhaha.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> <4E6702F0.6010300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: I did that and received no reply. I also offered to pay for the system and have liability transfered to me, and giving them a paper trail. I also offered to run it through a certified scrapper. The system might still be there waiting for someone to decide. I first noticed this about ten years ago, but companies were more flexible then. Paul On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 12:36 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Paul Anderson wrote: >> Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local Unibus >> system because the owner was worried about "environmental liability", >> and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this several times now. > > It is unfortunately not a new twist, though it is more common now than it > was 20 years ago. > > All the owner needed to to do deal with potential liability is to have you > sign a statement that you would dispose of it in accordance with all > applicable laws and regulations. ?The "dispose" part might not occur until > *many* years later, but that doesn't matter. > > Sigh. > > From olivier.2.smet at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 02:55:10 2011 From: olivier.2.smet at gmail.com (Olivier De Smet) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 09:55:10 +0200 Subject: hp 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <4E667771.6090505@bitsavers.org> References: <4E66720A.8080805@e-bbes.com> <4E667771.6090505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: You could find raw sector images (non compressed) and python tool to deal with TD0 images in the archives of my 98x6 emulator at http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hp_projects/hp98x6 TD0 images are somewhat disturbing, as they can record data from previous writing if format parameters changed between uses. Olivier 2011/9/6 Al Kossow : > On 9/6/11 12:18 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> where could I find media for Pascal and basic for them? >> Preferably .iso images? >> > > The HP Museum should have floppy images. I would be interested > in CD images if they exist for Pascal and Basic for the 382. > I've only ever seen floppies and 9844 tapes. > >> Any chance, to find HP-UX for them? >> > > CHM did get a release from HP for all 68000 9000 series > software, so that should include Unix. There was some question > about Rocky Mountain BASIC, since it was sold to > Test & Measurement Systems, Inc. in 1998 > > From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 03:08:24 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 03:08:24 -0500 Subject: Free: Big CRTs in Chicago Message-ID: I am moving (locally) in a few weeks. I've just started packing and, with much less success, trying to figure out what doesn't need to move with me. First off the pile are two large, old CRTs: Sun GDM1962B (http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/sun/gdm1962b.html) SGI CM2086A3SG The Sun has a 13W3 connector and is probably contemporary to the first Sparcstation line. The SGI has 3 BNCs and the *old* logo, which probably means it went with the Personal Iris era of SGI. That almost makes it collectable to me but...no. No CRTs for me. At least not for machines that can me made to work with an LCD. They're free for pickup if you happen to be in the area (60074.) No way I will ship these. -- jht From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 03:47:21 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 01:47:21 -0700 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: <4E668EDD.9090601@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4e650361.a39dec0a.4519.26d0@mx.google.com> <4E653D1A.2080905@dunnington.plus.com> <201109061852.p86IqL1f057573@billy.ezwind.net> <4E668EDD.9090601@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > ?I was just wondering about the electrics, some of which won't like the > dunk. I think you remove the electric motor and switch...and all plastics before dunking. All that should come off relatively easy. You could also try someone with a good automotive solvent tank to clean the mechanical parts. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Sep 7 07:07:18 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 08:07:18 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <4E6687D6.7580.77424@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com>, , <4E66AD25.3040402@telegraphics.com.au> <4E6687D6.7580.77424@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E675E76.8050505@telegraphics.com.au> On 06/09/11 11:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 06/09/11 4:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap.... > > > > Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local > Unibus > > system because the owner was worried about "environmental > > liability", and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this > > several times now. > > Is this the sort of thinking that RoHS engenders? Yes, in the same way that the existence of laws make a young man's fancy turn to thoughts of theft. Sounds more like very confused personal paranoia to me. Most likely the person in question has never heard of RoHS. --Toby > > --Chuck > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 7 07:46:42 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 07:46:42 -0500 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <58C46F5907824949B28939AA0B78AFA5@dell8300> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> <58C46F5907824949B28939AA0B78AFA5@dell8300> Message-ID: <201109071257.p87CvYNA082176@billy.ezwind.net> At 10:23 PM 9/6/2011, TeoZ wrote: >The websites for gold recovery pretty much say anything gold plated (unless it is over sterling silver that is recoverable) isn't worth the energy to recover. Gold plating is so precise these days you can plate a layer a few atoms thick. I figured some chips had gold interconnects so melting a small pile of them would get you a decent amount of gold after chemical separation. And do you have some experience or evidence about the thickness of gold plating on expensive computer equipment manufactured in the 1970s when gold was considerably less expensive? - John From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Sep 7 08:00:21 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 09:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: <201109071257.p87CvYNA082176@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> <58C46F5907824949B28939AA0B78AFA5@dell8300> <201109071257.p87CvYNA082176@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Sep 2011, John Foust wrote: > At 10:23 PM 9/6/2011, TeoZ wrote: >> The websites for gold recovery pretty much say anything gold plated (unless it is over sterling silver that is recoverable) isn't worth the energy to recover. Gold plating is so precise these days you can plate a layer a few atoms thick. I figured some chips had gold interconnects so melting a small pile of them would get you a decent amount of gold after chemical separation. > > And do you have some experience or evidence about the thickness of gold > plating on expensive computer equipment manufactured in the 1970s when > gold was considerably less expensive? ...or back in the mid-50s, which was when the Q7 was manufactured. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 08:26:13 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 09:26:13 -0400 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?) In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> <4E64CD83.4050303@bitsavers.org> <4E650DED.5020902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > 3 million watts, 2 of which were for the computer. I seem to recall a > LOT of copper buss bars. Yes. I would say most of the scrap value in a SAGE installation would come from the copper, aluminum, and stainless steel, even if the contacts were gold plated. I am going to have to look at my "Q-7" modules, as I do not remember them being gold plated. I suppose they could be super tarnished. -- Will From shumaker at att.net Wed Sep 7 10:04:52 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 08:04:52 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <4E6702BB.8030708@brouhaha.com> References: <4E6702BB.8030708@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E678814.9010201@att.net> On 9/6/2011 10:35 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Dave wrote: > > Nope, the UniSite definitely does [support the 2708 EPROM]. > > I have the supported device list > > for the v8.1 (kinda old, 2006) software sitting in front of me. > > It's never been clear to me whether the difference in device support > between the Unisite, 2900, 3900, and 3980 is due to actual hardware > differences, or just "product differentiation" in the software. While > it's certainly possible that the 2900 hardware can't deal with the > 2708, it seems somewhat unlikely. At the time they designed the 2900, > the kind of corners that they could have cut that would have rendered > the hardware incapable of dealing with the 2708 would have been too > likely to also cause it to be be unsuitable for (then) future > programmable logic devices. > > In any case, if you get a good deal on a Unisite, they're quite useful > since they can program some parts that the 2900/3900/3980 cannot. The > rev 12 and newer are best, but for programming old parts, even the > earlier ones are fine. > > > In looking at the wiki page, even the Unisite seems to have a ton of options. If one were looking to acquire a Unisite system that would focus on the older stuff primarily, what would be the best config (or at least a preferred config)? Steve From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 7 10:14:58 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 08:14:58 -0700 Subject: 9762 Cray pack recovery Message-ID: <4E678A72.1010204@bitsavers.org> someone just pointed this out to me http://www.archive.org/details/2011-cdc-disk-archaeology-fenton Chris Fenton's report on recovering data from an 80mb disk pack. From rollerton at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 10:39:14 2011 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 10:39:14 -0500 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: References: <4e650361.a39dec0a.4519.26d0@mx.google.com> <4E653D1A.2080905@dunnington.plus.com> <201109061852.p86IqL1f057573@billy.ezwind.net> <4E668EDD.9090601@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Here is what I do; but you need to make up your own mind for your needs: As a first pass you could try cleaning solvent used on machinery (automotive) but I would only use fresh solvent and not stuff from a work shop (!). "Stoddard" solvent in the USA is a trade name for a "safer" cleaner with a higher flashpoint. Usually sold in 5 gal cans (Tractor Supply is one place). I haven't had problems with plastics but you will want to be careful and avoid that. Its mild on your skin, and it likes to be warm to work its best so I put it out in the sun for the day. Next would be Naptha - sold in gallon cans and any paint or hardware (lowes/HD) store. Its a mild but slighty oily solvent with a high flash point. Warm is good here. Really nasty stuff I use Spray cans of engine cleaner from the auto store; Gunk is a common brand. Its a solvent with a soap so that you can wash it off with water. It has discolored some case plastics. Simple green is perhaps the safest/cheapest/easiest, and you spray it into tight places, or use it to soak, works well in warm to hot water. Hot water is good to rinse with too as it will dry faster. You have to be able to deal with flash rusting during the drying so the faster you can do that the better. An air blow gun is useful. Orange degreaser works better, its a bit more harsh. Industrial degreasers (purple) are too harsh and discolor metal. I will confess to using a pressure washer and simple green on cabinets, doors, and computer gear including large fixed head disks. Oh and cables. But these were stored in a barn and were used as a restroom by cats, racoons and woodchucks... I would follow all of these up with a spray bath of Electronics parts cleaner - you can get spray cans of this at Electrical supply places, or HD/lowes. put what ever you are cleaning over a pan or sawhorses so the wash can run off the part being cleaned and carry away dirt and oil. Be very careful with this on plastics, especially the typical urethane cases on monitors, computers, etc of the 80s and 90s. This bath should wash away anything left by the solvents and you will then need to oil and lube everything. At this point, any unpainted/unplated steel parts will be vulnerable to rusting so you need to think about how to keep things dry or spray on a fog of some kind of oil. WD-40 is ok for that - i also use it as a solvent/cleaner to wash gum and dirt out of moving parts, but not as a lube. LPS has some better products for inhibiting rust too. I have been using "Super Grease" on my electro/mechanical stuff for the past 10 years with good results. Its a synthetic, food safe, semi clear. HD/Lowes has it in tubes and 1lb can. Its online too, and ebay stores. I stay away from white grease these days but it was typical in the 60s thru 80s. The bicycle folks have some great oils, drip-less and synthetic (wont oxidize and gel into goo with age). Or use good old 3-in-one oil. 3inone is pretty light, some things like larger electrical motors need a bit heaver oil like 30W motor oil . There might be specs on the motor for this, or the documents. In my case I usually have to guess; small light weight gets 3in1, if it weighs over a pound... 30w. Bob. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 11:02:09 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 17:02:09 +0100 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: References: <4e650361.a39dec0a.4519.26d0@mx.google.com> <4E653D1A.2080905@dunnington.plus.com> <201109061852.p86IqL1f057573@billy.ezwind.net> <4E668EDD.9090601@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: In the clock trade they say DONT use 3 in 1 and auto oils they are the oils guilty of the thick sticky residue when they dry clockmakers prefer non drying oils for that reason some of the synthetics are good in that respect before synthetics clock oils were based on some of the animal oils Dave Caroline From rollerton at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 11:45:57 2011 From: rollerton at gmail.com (rollerton at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 16:45:57 +0000 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20cf303dd966acdb1d04ac5cad1f@google.com> On , Dave Caroline wrote: > In the clock trade they say DONT use 3 in 1 and auto oils > they are the oils guilty of the thick sticky residue when they dry > clockmakers prefer non drying oils for that reason some of the > synthetics are good in that respect > before synthetics clock oils were based on some of the animal oils > Dave Caroline I agree. all the off the shelf stuff is not clock friendly. In the past, Whale oil was used for lube and lamps. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 7 11:48:46 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 09:48:46 -0700 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4E673DFE.30891.5A07E9@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2011 at 10:39, Robert Ollerton wrote: > Here is what I do; but you need to make up your own mind for your > needs: Where would you place perc on the list of solvents? Often sold as auto brake cleaner or as dry cleaning liquid. It does seem to bother some, but not all plastics (probably doesn't sit well with styrene). > The bicycle folks have some great oils, drip-less and synthetic (wont > oxidize and gel into goo with age). Or use good old 3-in-one oil. > 3inone is pretty light, some things like larger electrical motors need > a bit heaver oil like 30W motor oil . There might be specs on the > motor for this, or the documents. In my case I usually have to guess; > small light weight gets 3in1, if it weighs over a pound... 30w. In brass band instruments, there are any number of very light oils used; some synthetics as well (e.g. Hetman, Binak). I like to use plain old Ultrapure lamp oil because it's cheap, very low viscosity, doesn't smell and will evaporate with time without leaving residue. Heavier alternatives are 5 weight "white oil", used on sewing machine and embroidery equipment. I've heard of people using Marvel Mystery Oil on their equipmet as well, as it's only about SAE 3 weight. Any professional tribologists on the list? --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 7 12:42:55 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 10:42:55 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <4E678814.9010201@att.net> References: <4E6702BB.8030708@brouhaha.com> <4E678814.9010201@att.net> Message-ID: <4E67AD1F.9080605@brouhaha.com> Steve wrote: > In looking at the wiki page, even the Unisite seems to have a ton of options. If one were > looking to acquire a Unisite system that would focus on the older stuff primarily, what would > be the best config (or at least a preferred config)? The old chips only came in DIP packages, so a Unisite with a SITE40, SITE48, or SITE48HS is all you need. From rollerton at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 12:47:44 2011 From: rollerton at gmail.com (rollerton at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 17:47:44 +0000 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: <4E673DFE.30891.5A07E9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <90e6ba61385c9f2b0d04ac5d8ae9@google.com> Brake cleaner is cheap, comes in a spray can, easy to find. I use it to degrease motors and other oil/dirt things, and Brakes. And MGs. But.. its harsh on your skin, paint, and on plastics. Some brands leave a white residue that needs to be washed off with something else afterwards. If I had a tty33 out of the case I think I would start with brake cleaner, then electric cleaner, blow it dry and a few hours in the sun and then a fog of wd-40, and then oil the parts that need oil. But hey, thats me. I work on airplanes, MGA/MGB and GMC trucks too. And my Sigma 9 (sigma9.info). From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 7 12:53:14 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 10:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: References: <4e650361.a39dec0a.4519.26d0@mx.google.com> <4E653D1A.2080905@dunnington.plus.com> <201109061852.p86IqL1f057573@billy.ezwind.net> <4E668EDD.9090601@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20110907105227.O40150@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Sep 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: > In the clock trade they say DONT use 3 in 1 and auto oils So, they only use WD40? :-) From rollerton at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 12:59:02 2011 From: rollerton at gmail.com (rollerton at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 17:59:02 +0000 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: <20110907105227.O40150@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <90e6ba3fcd6d04ffbf04ac5db3fd@google.com> Oh and (top post!) I love Marvel Mystery Oil.... And so do my MGs. Just a dab here and there on date night! On , Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 7 Sep 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: > > In the clock trade they say DONT use 3 in 1 and auto oils > So, they only use WD40? :-) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Sep 7 13:24:40 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 19:24:40 +0100 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: References: <4e650361.a39dec0a.4519.26d0@mx.google.com> <4E653D1A.2080905@dunnington.plus.com> <201109061852.p86IqL1f057573@billy.ezwind.net> <4E668EDD.9090601@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E67B6E8.7080002@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/09/2011 09:47, Paxton Hoag wrote: >> I was just wondering about the electrics, some of which won't like the >> dunk. > > I think you remove the electric motor and switch...and all plastics > before dunking. All that should come off relatively easy. > > You could also try someone with a good automotive solvent tank to > clean the mechanical parts. I was certainly planning to figure out what I can remove first. Thanks! Anyone have specific recommendations or should I just bury myself in the manual for a while? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Sep 7 13:24:37 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 19:24:37 +0100 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: References: <4e650361.a39dec0a.4519.26d0@mx.google.com> <4E653D1A.2080905@dunnington.plus.com> <201109061852.p86IqL1f057573@billy.ezwind.net> <4E668EDD.9090601@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E67B6E5.9020503@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/09/2011 16:39, Robert Ollerton wrote: > As a first pass you could try cleaning solvent used on machinery > (automotive) but I would only use fresh solvent Well, the normal regime for any cleaning or solvent operation is to use the second-grade first and /finish/ with the best/cleanest. You get a lot off (or dissolved) with used solvent, but you need the cleanest to remove the last traces. Actually, I usually have a big can of such stuff, and it gets used so rarely that any crud - and heavy oil etc - settles out. But I recently decided it was past its sell-by date, as we say, so it was "relocated" and I'll have to buy some new. > Next would be Naptha - sold in gallon cans and any paint or hardware > (lowes/HD) store. Its a mild but slighty oily solvent with a high flash > point. Warm is good here. Essentially what we call paraffin. And that's what I'll probably use. > Really nasty stuff I use Spray cans of engine cleaner from the auto store; > Gunk is a common brand. I know it well, great for engines, not so much for more delicate stuff. > I will confess to using a pressure washer and simple green on cabinets, > doors, and computer gear including large fixed head disks. I've done that for one or two, or just a hose and a paintbrush of some. > I would follow all of these up with a spray bath of Electronics parts > cleaner I have several choices, but rarely use aerols becasue they're rxpensive. I do have a spray gun though. At this point, any unpainted/unplated steel parts will be > vulnerable to rusting so you need to think about how to keep things dry or > spray on a fog of some kind of oil. WD-40 is ok for that I wouldn't. It's a mixture of naptha and wax, and I don't want a residue left collecting dust. That's one of the problems I've seen on a few teletypes, printers, and typewriters. > Or use > good old 3-in-one oil. 3inone is pretty light I wouldn't use that either, it oxidises and goes very sticky. > motors need a bit heaver oil like 30W motor oil . There might be specs on > the motor for this, or the documents. Yep, the Teletype manual specifies SAE20 oil and a fairly ordinary grease elsewhere. I'd use a modern synthetic that doesn't go sticky, probably a hydraulic oil or gearbox oil that has little or no additives. I just happen to have a large bottle of low-viscosity gear oil that I bought when I needed a particular type for a hifi turntable (I've used about 0.5ml out of 1 litre but it was still cheaper than buying the identical product re-packaged from specialist shops). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 13:14:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 19:14:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, In-Reply-To: <4E6687D6.7580.77424@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 6, 11 08:51:34 pm Message-ID: > > On 06/09/11 4:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap.... > > > > Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local > Unibus > > system because the owner was worried about "environmental > > liability", and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this > > several times now. > > Is this the sort of thinking that RoHS engenders? I suspect it's the WEEE directive, actually, but it's as bad... IMHO these regualtions have absolutely nothinh to do with actually protecting the environment, and everything to do with protecting big company profits. They are designed ot ensur stuff fails i n short time (e.g. by iunsisting o nthe sue of inferior solder) and then ensure it doesn't get repaired. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 12:55:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 18:55:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Train shipping ( was Re: VT fixums ) In-Reply-To: <26e2b97766f55af0dc1a47bde55cdd15@otter.se> from "jonas@otter.se" at Sep 6, 11 11:39:54 am Message-ID: > >> > An AR88 (RCA communcations receiver) > >> You *carried* an AR88 on a train??? They weigh, what, 45 kgs? You > >> must > > > > Well, I didn't hold it for the netire journey, if that's what you > > mean. > > It sat on the luggage rack between Bristol and London... > > I hope not the overhead rack? I certainly wouldn't like to take an No, fortuanely not. It was one of those '125' trains, with the luggage racks at the ends of the carriages. it went there, on a shelf of a suitable height. > AR-88 down from an overhead luggage rack, let alone putting it up there, > and certainly not having it fall out if something happened... Brrr... Knowing the cosntruction of modern trains, an AR88 would prboably go straight through the flooe :-) > > I am insulted! I have spent my entire life avoiding exercise, and I > > don't > > intend changing that. I have never done any uncnessary exercise. > > > > No offence meant! :-) Actually, I assuemd you'd seen at last one photo of me on the web (thre's one on the HPCC wrbsite in last year's confernce photos [1]), which should indicate that I am truely a high mass hobbyist :-) []1 Said photo also shows an HP9836CU lin lots of bits. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 13:00:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 19:00:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <000901cc6cd3$da9467c0$8fbd3740$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 6, 11 10:30:38 pm Message-ID: > I do have the HP-UX CD 9.XX and I think 10.X but I have to check that. Quick qeustion, which I suspect has a long answer... I have a couiple of HP9000/200 machines that I believe are capable of running HP-UX. One is an HP9836CU, the other an HP9817. Both have 68010 processors with HP's own MMU circuitry What more do I need to run HP-UX on them (I believe at least a DMA contoller board, which I probably have and an HP98625 high-speed HPIB board which I certainly have), what sort of drive(s) do I need, where can I get the HP-UX software, and how do I install it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 13:04:08 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 19:04:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <1315341043.4955.8.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 6, 11 09:30:43 pm Message-ID: > I'd rather like to get my hands on a degausser but it seems the > audiophools have pushed the prices up to silly levels around here... and > I don't have a suitable transformer to chop up to make one. What is speacial about the transformer you need? I thohght all you needed was any fairly large non-torroidal transformer with a mains winding. Take the core apart, reassamble all the E-laminations the same way round and laeve out the Is. Run the mains winding from a lower voltage (a Variac is handy here, it's about the only thing it is handy for ;-)) since the impedance of the winding will be much lower with the open magnetic circuit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 13:40:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 19:40:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Sep 7, 11 05:02:09 pm Message-ID: > > In the clock trade they say DONT use 3 in 1 and auto oils And the worst is Wanton Destruction 40 :-) > they are the oils guilty of the thick sticky residue when they dry > clockmakers prefer non drying oils for that reason some of the > synthetics are good in that respect > before synthetics clock oils were based on some of the animal oils It shouldn't be too hard to get watch or clock oil, sold as such. In London I'd got to H.S. Walsh (now in Biggin Hill, they've moved from Beckenham). There are many grades, but a couple of them (a light watch oil, and a somewaht thicker clock oil) would be OK for most jobs. -tony From shumaker at att.net Wed Sep 7 13:48:26 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 11:48:26 -0700 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: <4E67AD1F.9080605@brouhaha.com> References: <4E6702BB.8030708@brouhaha.com> <4E678814.9010201@att.net> <4E67AD1F.9080605@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E67BC7A.5090802@att.net> On 9/7/2011 10:42 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Steve wrote: > > In looking at the wiki page, even the Unisite seems to have a ton > of options. If one were > > looking to acquire a Unisite system that would focus on the older > stuff primarily, what would > > be the best config (or at least a preferred config)? > > The old chips only came in DIP packages, so a Unisite with a SITE40, > SITE48, or SITE48HS is all you need. > > thanks - that helps! steve From rollerton at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 13:58:21 2011 From: rollerton at gmail.com (rollerton at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 18:58:21 +0000 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: <4E67B6E5.9020503@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <90e6ba1efd642ba01604ac5e8719@google.com> Pete; I don't have the gummy problems with oils where I am. But then the weather is a bit dryer and warmer. Any oil will collect dust, etc. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 7 14:01:11 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 12:01:11 -0700 Subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, In-Reply-To: References: <4E6687D6.7580.77424@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 6, 11 08:51:34 pm, Message-ID: <4E675D07.18773.D344A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2011 at 19:14, Tony Duell wrote: > IMHO these regualtions have absolutely nothinh to do with actually > protecting the environment, and everything to do with protecting big > company profits. They are designed ot ensur stuff fails i n short time > (e.g. by iunsisting o nthe sue of inferior solder) and then ensure it > doesn't get repaired. I hear that. The last job was resoldering the PCB in my coffee maker; before that the relays in my Volvo (still have to redo the instrument panel). --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Sep 7 14:27:46 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 15:27:46 -0400 Subject: CDC 9766 Disk Pak reading In-Reply-To: <20cf303dd966acdb1d04ac5cad1f@google.com> References: <20cf303dd966acdb1d04ac5cad1f@google.com> Message-ID: <4E67C5B2.8080306@atarimuseum.com> okay, been trying to do this for a few years now, but things never sync up.... anybody have a working CDC9766 or DEC RM05 that is willing to read some disk paks for me? (approx. 20 of them) In return you can keep all of the disk paks, I also have an Alignment disk pak and once the data is read off of them, I have a CDC9766 that is untested that I'm willing to throw in if you pay to have it picked up. I'm in NY, will pay to ship the disk paks or drive them over if your within 150mi Curt > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 7 14:52:08 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 12:52:08 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: References: <1315341043.4955.8.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 6, 11 09:30:43 pm, Message-ID: <4E6768F8.31340.101E915@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2011 at 19:04, Tony Duell wrote: > What is speacial about the transformer you need? I thohght all you > needed was any fairly large non-torroidal transformer with a mains > winding. Take the core apart, reassamble all the E-laminations the > same way round and laeve out the Is. Run the mains winding from a > lower voltage (a Variac is handy here, it's about the only thing it is > handy for ;-)) since the impedance of the winding will be much lower > with the open magnetic circuit. Microwave ovens are junked very frequently here and some have fabulously large transformers in them (both high voltage and filament, as well as some for the control circuitry. With a power screwdriver, you usually can reduce a microwave oven to sheet metal and electronics in minutes. Many older laser printers and copiers have hefty transformers as well. One instance I'm aware of was a big Panasonic laser printer that used a large 220V power transformer to supply the various electronics. It was, in turn fed by a 120V-to-220V step-up transformer, equally large. Strange, but useful. Many old laser printers are full of ZIP memory, interesting CPUs (68xxx, NS32016, PPC). Definitely worth looking into--generally you can tell by the weight of the unit what sort of power supply it uses. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 14:13:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 20:13:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: <4E67B6E8.7080002@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Sep 7, 11 07:24:40 pm Message-ID: > I was certainly planning to figure out what I can remove first. Thanks! > > Anyone have specific recommendations or should I just bury myself in the > manual for a while? An ASR44, right? Well, personally, I'd take the whole thing apart and clean each component by hand, peg out the holes, and so on. It really doesn't take that long. But if you want to kludge it, at least remove : Motor (and assockated electrical bits) Distributor brush and PCB 'disk) Trasnmit shaft triival now) Puch mechanuism (it's easy to remvoe,) Platen assembly (there's a spring on the underside of the typing unit to detach first) Carriage (remove the damper piston from its left side, take off the return spring, the belt pulley and the breacket over the advance sprocket. Then turn the carriage anticlockwise as seen from the front, about an axis going horizotnally front-back) and pull it out_. What, though, is the objextion to completely stripping it. As I mentioned, I did my first ASR 33 while still at school (actually as light releif between my A-level exams), without the benefit of the manual. Worked second time (I had the print inhibit linkage misassembled the first time). I think doing the whole machine, typing unit, keyuboard, punch and reader took a couple of weeks working evenings, and I was also figuring out how it all worked. -tony From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 7 15:08:00 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 15:08:00 -0500 Subject: 9762 Cray pack recovery In-Reply-To: <4E678A72.1010204@bitsavers.org> References: <4E678A72.1010204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201109072008.p87K8Fee099256@billy.ezwind.net> At 10:14 AM 9/7/2011, Al Kossow wrote: >someone just pointed this out to me > >http://www.archive.org/details/2011-cdc-disk-archaeology-fenton > >Chris Fenton's report on recovering data from an 80mb disk pack. Well, he recovered oversampled waveforms of what was on the disk pack... It did not say he recovered files, right? - John From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 15:08:32 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 17:08:32 -0300 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! References: <1315341043.4955.8.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 6, 11 09:30:43 pm, <4E6768F8.31340.101E915@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <72BF018DB2B14A5AA44FDA64FAACD060@portajara> >> lower voltage (a Variac is handy here, it's about the only thing it is >> handy for ;-)) since the impedance of the winding will be much lower >> with the open magnetic circuit. Can't you use an incandescent lamp in series with the filament? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 15:12:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 21:12:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Sep 7, 11 08:13:15 pm Message-ID: > > > I was certainly planning to figure out what I can remove first. Thanks! > > > > Anyone have specific recommendations or should I just bury myself in the > > manual for a while? > > An ASR44, right? I meant ASR33, of course! > > Well, personally, I'd take the whole thing apart and clean each component > by hand, peg out the holes, and so on. It really doesn't take that long. > But if you want to kludge it, at least remove : > > Motor (and assockated electrical bits) > > Distributor brush and PCB 'disk) > > Trasnmit shaft triival now) > > Puch mechanuism (it's easy to remvoe,) > > Platen assembly (there's a spring on the underside of the typing unit to > detach first) > > Carriage (remove the damper piston from its left side, take off the > return spring, the belt pulley and the breacket over the advance > sprocket. Then turn the carriage anticlockwise as seen from the front, > about an axis going horizotnally front-back) and pull it out_. > > What, though, is the objextion to completely stripping it. As I > mentioned, I did my first ASR 33 while still at school (actually as light > releif between my A-level exams), without the benefit of the manual. > Worked second time (I had the print inhibit linkage misassembled the > first time). I think doing the whole machine, typing unit, keyuboard, > punch and reader took a couple of weeks working evenings, and I was also > figuring out how it all worked. > > -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 15:22:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 21:22:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E6768F8.31340.101E915@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 7, 11 12:52:08 pm Message-ID: > > On 7 Sep 2011 at 19:04, Tony Duell wrote: > > > What is speacial about the transformer you need? I thohght all you > > needed was any fairly large non-torroidal transformer with a mains > > winding. Take the core apart, reassamble all the E-laminations the > > same way round and laeve out the Is. Run the mains winding from a > > lower voltage (a Variac is handy here, it's about the only thing it is > > handy for ;-)) since the impedance of the winding will be much lower > > with the open magnetic circuit. > > Microwave ovens are junked very frequently here and some have > fabulously large transformers in them (both high voltage and > filament, as well as some for the control circuitry. Indeed. Be very careful if you use one of those in that the HV winding it letahal. Buyt yes, such transformers are ratted at about 1500VA or more. AFAIK, all UK micorwave ovens use the large trnasformer for the magnetron only. The magnetorin is controleld by switching the mains input to this transofemr. The contorl circuitry, which obviously has to be running even when the magnetorn isn't, has its own PSU. Alas modern micorwave ovens over here have SMPSUs for the magnetron, so no large mains transformer. Or so I am told, I've never owned a microwave oven, and probably never will. > > With a power screwdriver, you usually can reduce a microwave oven to > sheet metal and electronics in minutes. Over here, a lot of kitchen devices -- even simple things like toasters -- ahve strange scrwws hodling them together. Triangular-recessed heads are common, for example (anyone konw where to get a set of drivers for those?) I guess it's part of the 'let's make sure nobody fixes this' idea. Nothing you can't shift with a bit of brute force though :-)) > > Many older laser printers and copiers have hefty transformers as > well. One instance I'm aware of was a big Panasonic laser printer FWIW, Canon CX-engined printers have one or two mains transfomers in the bottom, one for the print engine, the other for the formatter board. The lstter is only fitted if there is a formatter board, so the CX-VDO is lacking it. AFAIK all later Canon-engined printes have SMPSUs. The SXs certainly do. > that used a large 220V power transformer to supply the various > electronics. It was, in turn fed by a 120V-to-220V step-up > transformer, equally large. Strange, but useful. Many old laser > printers are full of ZIP memory, interesting CPUs (68xxx, NS32016, > PPC). Definitely worth looking into--generally you can tell by the > weight of the unit what sort of power supply it uses. This of course assumes you don't rgard laser printers as part of computer history and therefore worth preserving. I cuuld mention that many computers hve nice mais transofrmers in them too (PDP8s, PDP11s, P850s, HP9800 calculators, HP9826s and HP9836s, etc), but anyone who strips those for parts is liable to be LARTed -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 15:35:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 21:35:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <72BF018DB2B14A5AA44FDA64FAACD060@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Sep 7, 11 05:08:32 pm Message-ID: > > >> lower voltage (a Variac is handy here, it's about the only thing it is > >> handy for ;-)) since the impedance of the winding will be much lower > >> with the open magnetic circuit. > > Can't you use an incandescent lamp in series with the filament? I asusme you meain 'in series with the primary'. Yes, you can, assuming you cna stil lget filament lamps [1]. You want a fair-sized currnt thuugh, and because you only use the degauser for short periods, it doesn't amtter if the coil would overheat if left on continuously (most small commercial degausers of the type solde for bulk-eraisng home audio and video tapes suffer from this too). I think th average domestic lamp bulb will nto pass enough currnt. [1] As you probably know, ever more types are being banned. It's things like this, and the RoHS and WEEE directives that have caused me to claim to be 'magenta' which is, of course, anti-green :-) -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Sep 7 15:35:51 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 21:35:51 +0100 Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E67D5A7.2080403@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/09/2011 20:13, Tony Duell wrote: >> I was certainly planning to figure out what I can remove first. Thanks! >> >> Anyone have specific recommendations or should I just bury myself in the >> manual for a while? > > An ASR44, right? ASR33, but the babelfish is sure that's what you meant :-) > Well, personally, I'd take the whole thing apart and clean each component > by hand, peg out the holes, and so on. It really doesn't take that long. > But if you want to kludge it, at least remove : [ helpful stuff] > What, though, is the objextion to completely stripping it. Mostly time. I haven't got a lot spare! Secondly, space. I have almost no space to lay things out safely if I have to dismantle something like this very far, and the risk of someone else disturbing things is moderately high. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 7 15:51:50 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 22:51:50 +0200 Subject: hp 9000/382 In-Reply-To: References: <000901cc6cd3$da9467c0$8fbd3740$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 6, 11 10:30:38 pm Message-ID: <000001cc6d9f$fae8cc10$f0ba6430$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: woensdag 7 september 2011 20:01 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: hp 9000/382 > > > I do have the HP-UX CD 9.XX and I think 10.X but I have to check that. > > Quick qeustion, which I suspect has a long answer... > > I have a couiple of HP9000/200 machines that I believe are capable of running > HP-UX. One is an HP9836CU, the other an HP9817. Both have 68010 processors > with HP's own MMU circuitry > > What more do I need to run HP-UX on them (I believe at least a DMA contoller > board, which I probably have and an HP98625 high-speed HPIB board which I > certainly have), what sort of drive(s) do I need, where can I get the HP-UX > software, and how do I install it? > > -tony Tony, For as far I know you need a lot of RAM 1 or 2 MB the more the better, and you will need a CS80 drive and the obvious fast HP-IB controller with DMA installed or a SCSI controller with the DMA option installed... You also need a tape or CD with HP-UX 2.X or 5.1 on it because I don't think HP-UX 9.xx will run on a 68010. You can try to install 9.XX, but the HP-UX media I have is a CD, you can get the images from me or if needed I can send you the CD's. You can find some info at : http://www.pimpworks.org/hp/hpuxfaq.html and better at : http://www.faqs.org/faqs/hp/hpux-faq/ a quote :\ Series 100 Motorola 680x0? n/a Series 200 Motorola 680x0 2.x, 5.1 Series 300 Motorola 680x0 6.x, 7.x, 8.0/01/05/07, 9.0/01/03/10 Series 400 Motorola 680x0 7.x, 8.0/01/05/07 Series 500 HP Focus 1.x, 5.x Series 600 HP PA-RISC 2.x, 3.x, 7.0, 8.0/02/06, 9.0/02/04 Series 700 HP PA-RISC 7.03/05/09, 8.0/01/05/07, 9.01/03/05/07/09, 10.x, 11.x Series 800 HP PA-RISC 1.x, 2.x, 3.x, 7.0, 8.0/02/06, 9.0/02/04, 10.x, 11.0/10/11/23, 11.30? Itanium Intel IPF 11.2x, 11.30 -Rik From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 7 15:58:48 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 13:58:48 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: References: <4E6768F8.31340.101E915@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 7, 11 12:52:08 pm, Message-ID: <4E677898.32766.13EF11B@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2011 at 21:22, Tony Duell wrote: > This of course assumes you don't rgard laser printers as part of > computer history and therefore worth preserving. I cuuld mention that > many computers hve nice mais transofrmers in them too (PDP8s, PDP11s, > P850s, HP9800 calculators, HP9826s and HP9836s, etc), but anyone who > strips those for parts is liable to be LARTed After a time, it simply becomes uneconomical to operate one, compared to a modern laser printer. Take, for example, the Panasonic KX- P4451, fairly representative of these old beasts. Circa 1990, uses a massive print engine that was also shared with their plain-paper faxes and compiers. 13 PPM, Appletalk interface as well as the usual serial and parallel. Nice printer, but the separate toner, OPC drum, developer and ozone filter units will set you back a lot now per copy- -assuming you can find a functioning OPC unit (they do have a shelf life). Why bother when you can buy a Brother desktop laser that costs almost nothing to refill, runs just as fast and even has ethernet connectivity? And printers appear to have very little collector value, judging from the units I can't even give away. For big jobs, I like my Xerox Docuprint.; can duplex-print 11x17" paper, can be operated remotely and even accepts a hard disk for job spooling. Since an extra kit came with it, I'll probably be using it 10 years from now. If anyone wants a perfectly operable Panasonic KX-P4455 (postscript) printer, they're welcome to it for shipping (it's heavy, so shipping will cost a small fortune). --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 7 16:34:02 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 14:34:02 -0700 Subject: 9762 Cray pack recovery In-Reply-To: <201109072008.p87K8Fee099256@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4E678A72.1010204@bitsavers.org> <201109072008.p87K8Fee099256@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E67E34A.4030709@bitsavers.org> On 9/7/11 1:08 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 10:14 AM 9/7/2011, Al Kossow wrote: >> someone just pointed this out to me >> >> http://www.archive.org/details/2011-cdc-disk-archaeology-fenton >> >> Chris Fenton's report on recovering data from an 80mb disk pack. > > > Well, he recovered oversampled waveforms of what was on the disk pack... > It did not say he recovered files, right? > This is what I posted on http://blog.archive.org/2011/09/03/hard-drive-archaeology-and-hackerspaces -- I wish Chris would have emailed me about the service manual. I have others which were for earlier drives. It will be interesting to see how far he gets interpreting the sector format. Hopefully he can leave the setup in place until he verifies that the comparator that he built worked correctly by decoding the sector data. The description of the circuit that CDC used is quite a bit more complicated than what he used. Also, Jason, I have several 80 mb CDC packs, and I can get a correct picture for you. The one you show is an earlier 200 mb version with 12 instead of 5 disk platters. From auringer at tds.net Wed Sep 7 17:09:34 2011 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 17:09:34 -0500 Subject: hp 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <000001cc6d9f$fae8cc10$f0ba6430$@xs4all.nl> References: <000901cc6cd3$da9467c0$8fbd3740$@xs4all.nl> <000001cc6d9f$fae8cc10$f0ba6430$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > You also need a tape or CD with HP-UX 2.X or 5.1 on it because I don't think > HP-UX 9.xx will run on a 68010. I have a 9000/310 which has a 68010 in it, yet the FAQs say all of the 300 series machines should run 6.x - 9.10. Do you have other information that indicates that 6.x - 9.10 won't run on my box? I only have BASIC on mine and would like to run HP-UX, but am not sure which version I should be trying to track down. > You can try to install 9.XX, but the HP-UX media I have is a CD, you can get > the images from me or if needed I can send you the CD's. > Series 200 ? ?Motorola 680x0 ? ? 2.x, 5.1 > Series 300 ? ?Motorola 680x0 ? ? 6.x, 7.x, 8.0/01/05/07, 9.0/01/03/10 -Jon From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Sep 7 22:04:24 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 23:04:24 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/730 - free to good home - via comp.sys.dec Message-ID: <4E6830B8.9040809@telegraphics.com.au> Incredible opportunity here for someone. Wish I could take it. --T > Hello All, > > I have an 11/730 with the following bits: > > Out by themselves: > * H7140 (power supply?) > * RL02 > * a faceplate with two tape/cart drives > > In the cabinet: > * RL02 > * CPU (it also says "DMF32 distribution panel" on the back) > * R80 > > I also have a VT220 terminal. > > I don't know anything about VAXes but it was running when last powered > down about 15 years ago. I was given it by a friend I helped with > some IT consulting. > > I have pictures I can make available. The system is in Greenville SC > and will be given away to the first person who can come pick it all > up. > > It has to go ASAP so don't waste time thinking I will still have it in > a month. It will be scrapped. :-( > > Thanks! > > -- Peter. https://groups.google.com/d/topic/comp.sys.dec/YhM5idkpF9U/discussion From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 23:40:19 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 23:40:19 -0500 Subject: B-29 targeting computer Message-ID: :-) http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-29-Bomber-Superfortress-Rare-Vintage-Analog-Computer-/270813835335 From earl at baugh.org Wed Sep 7 23:47:09 2011 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl D. Baugh Jr.) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 00:47:09 -0400 Subject: Documentation for Clearpoint SNXRAM/12 VME board? Message-ID: <95B45115-6650-4CBE-A009-96541733EF61@baugh.org> Howdy, Anybody happen to have (or know where) I can find documentation on a Clearpoint SNXRAM VME board? I've tried Googling for it, but no luck. I've got one and would like to add it to my Sun 3/110. (which I finally got booting after a lot of work finding all of the bad ram on the motherboard) Wondered if anybody happened to have info, esp. for the configuration jumpers (I can get it to "add" 6MB, but suspect it might be overlapped with the motherboard ram... that, or it has a bad chip or two... [which are sadly soldered on...] ) Want to make sure I've got it set up right before I EVEN BEGIN to think about attempting to debug the chips on it... :-) Earl From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Thu Sep 8 00:00:19 2011 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 14:30:19 +0930 Subject: B-29 targeting computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201109081430.19531.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 02:10:19 PM Brian Lanning wrote: > :-) > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-29-Bomber-Superfortress-Rare-Vintage-Analog-Compu > ter-/270813835335 While we're on the subject... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/i-b-m-time-card-clock-/250885834884 From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 8 01:25:29 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 08:25:29 +0200 Subject: B-29 targeting computer In-Reply-To: <201109081430.19531.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <201109081430.19531.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <5f618cadfad5952aae634188e0c8a522.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 02:10:19 PM Brian Lanning wrote: >> :-) >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-29-Bomber-Superfortress-Rare-Vintage-Analog-Compu >> ter-/270813835335 > > While we're on the subject... > > http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/i-b-m-time-card-clock-/250885834884 > Neat! My father in-law has such an IBM time clock, only the cabinet is half that depth and apparently in original state (i.e. brown polished wooden surface). Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Sep 8 02:10:41 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 08:10:41 +0100 Subject: B-29 targeting computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very Nice. The gunners sat in large round side windows with the gun sight and the guns were on the top and bottom of the aircraft. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian Lanning Sent: 08 September 2011 05:40 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: B-29 targeting computer :-) http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-29-Bomber-Superfortress-Rare-Vintage-Analog-Comput er-/270813835335 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Sep 8 04:17:24 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 11:17:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 9762 Cray pack recovery In-Reply-To: <201109072008.p87K8Fee099256@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4E678A72.1010204@bitsavers.org> <201109072008.p87K8Fee099256@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Sep 2011, John Foust wrote: > At 10:14 AM 9/7/2011, Al Kossow wrote: >> someone just pointed this out to me >> >> http://www.archive.org/details/2011-cdc-disk-archaeology-fenton >> >> Chris Fenton's report on recovering data from an 80mb disk pack. > > > Well, he recovered oversampled waveforms of what was on the disk pack... > It did not say he recovered files, right? Right, that's how I read that, too. And it was a fairly complicate way of getting the raw data off the disk pack. It'd probably have been *much* easier repairing the drives (that surely weren't in so bad shape) and building a small interface to attach them to whatever system he was using. Christian From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 8 09:34:58 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 07:34:58 -0700 Subject: 9762 Cray pack recovery In-Reply-To: References: <4E678A72.1010204@bitsavers.org> <201109072008.p87K8Fee099256@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E68D292.2080809@bitsavers.org> On 9/8/11 2:17 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > attach them to whatever system he was using. > All he had was a pack from the front end (Eclipse ?) of a Cray. I don't think he even knows what disk controller it was connected to although I would think that Cray would have used one from DG. I've not seen any postings about this on Controlfreaks. I should post something over there to see what people know. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Sep 8 10:27:02 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 17:27:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 9762 Cray pack recovery In-Reply-To: <4E68D292.2080809@bitsavers.org> References: <4E678A72.1010204@bitsavers.org> <201109072008.p87K8Fee099256@billy.ezwind.net> <4E68D292.2080809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Sep 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/8/11 2:17 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >> attach them to whatever system he was using. >> > > All he had was a pack from the front end (Eclipse ?) of a Cray. > I don't think he even knows what disk controller it was connected to > although I would think that Cray would have used one from DG. But that's a standard SMD drive, isn't it? So it should be rather simple to make a minimalistic SMD interface for his analyzer system (his PC) just to control the positioning system and to read the sector data. I could use such an interface because I have three Fujitsu drives from a Nixdorf system that I want to read out. The controller format is unknown (as everything from a Nixdorf...), and I haven't had luck with my SUN VME controllers (I've programmed them directly). But time... a very rare good today. Christian From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 8 10:40:50 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 08:40:50 -0700 Subject: 9762 Cray pack recovery In-Reply-To: <4E68D292.2080809@bitsavers.org> References: <4E678A72.1010204@bitsavers.org> <201109072008.p87K8Fee099256@billy.ezwind.net> <4E68D292.2080809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E68E202.7090601@bitsavers.org> On 9/8/11 7:34 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/8/11 2:17 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >> attach them to whatever system he was using. >> > > All he had was a pack from the front end (Eclipse ?) of a Cray. > I don't think he even knows what disk controller it was connected to > although I would think that Cray would have used one from DG. > > I've not seen any postings about this on Controlfreaks. I should post > something over there to see what people know. > > message from Chris.. Anyway, I did an actual write-up for my website here: http://chrisfenton.com/cray-1-digital-archeology/ Some guy from Norway downloaded my dataset and actually managed to figure out the sector encoding (including the header and checksum scheme!), and he wrote a script (that is up on my site) that can extract and verify the raw sectors. The disk uses 32 sectors/track, with 512 bytes/sector. My thought is that the disk either belonged to some sort of data general eclipse, or to a Cray IOS. It looks like it was used for some kind of diagnostics/testing for 1/s and 1/m machines. I should hopefully be able to post a dump of the actual extracted sectors to my website later tonight. -Chris From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 8 12:02:54 2011 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 10:02:54 -0700 Subject: Old Memorex Terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B2FB5379C3430597E796D30AD997F5@tegp4> For the Memorex at 50 events next month we are looking for a few old Memorex or Memorex-Telex terminals from the middle 1980s; in particular, the Model 1377 and/or any Model in the 2000 series. We can pay for packaging and shipping. We would then like to offer them to the Computer History Museum for its permanent collection or we can return them after the events Tom +1 650.941.5324 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 8 14:51:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 20:51:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Adding machine repair In-Reply-To: <4E67D5A7.2080403@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Sep 7, 11 09:35:51 pm Message-ID: > > > > On 07/09/2011 20:13, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I was certainly planning to figure out what I can remove first. Thanks! > >> > >> Anyone have specific recommendations or should I just bury myself in the > >> manual for a while? > > > > An ASR44, right? > > ASR33, but the babelfish is sure that's what you meant :-) Yes, I spotted that and sent a correction. > > > Well, personally, I'd take the whole thing apart and clean each component > > by hand, peg out the holes, and so on. It really doesn't take that long. > > But if you want to kludge it, at least remove : > > [ helpful stuff] > > > What, though, is the objextion to completely stripping it. Remember that, in general, it's the gunge that you can't see that that's the problem. Old, sticky oil and dust on the base casting will look unsightly but won't cause problems. But old, sticky oil in a pivot of one of the linkages will. And I've read plenty of books and articles that state that dunk-cleaning, even in an untrasonic cleaner ill not proberly clean out pivot holes, particularly without dismantling. A second issue is that, of course, the cleaning solvents will remove the lubrication from the mechansims. You have to re-oil everytthing. IF the unit is assembled, even with the service manual it's easy to miss some pivot point hidded well under other parts. Without a service manual you are certain to miss something. But if you take the whole thing aaper and oil the bivots and bearings as it goes back toyether you are much more likely to do every one. It's up to you, but I know I'd spend the time to take it apart > > Mostly time. I haven't got a lot spare! Secondly, space. I have > almost no space to lay things out safely if I have to dismantle > something like this very far, and the risk of someone else disturbing > things is moderately high. Sure, but I didn;t say you hafe to take the whole thing apart at once... I have suggested removing various moduels anyway. There are others that come off too, like the receiver mechansim. Each module, and things like the keyboard and reader, can be stripped, cleanerd, and put back together in an afternoon I think. So you take a module, strip it down, clean the parts, put it back together, and put it in box until the whole machien is ready to go back together. My other tip is to buy some of thos divided plastic boxes. The Raaco ones from Farnell (etc) are godd, don't get the ones with adjustable partions which will decide to adjuest themselves at the wrong moment. When you take something off, put the fixing parts (screws, washers, etc) in a compartment of said box. If nevessary put in a slip of paper to indicate what the bits are. When you need to pack up, close the lid down and the parts are all safely stored. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 8 14:56:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 20:56:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <000001cc6d9f$fae8cc10$f0ba6430$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 7, 11 10:51:50 pm Message-ID: > For as far I know you need a lot of RAM 1 or 2 MB the more the better, and That's not a problem. My 9836CU has 4M in it, I think there's 2M in the 9817, but I have some odd 1M boards around anyway. > you will need a CS80 drive and the obvious fast HP-IB controller with DMA > installed or a SCSI controller with the DMA option installed... > You also need a tape or CD with HP-UX 2.X or 5.1 on it because I don't think > HP-UX 9.xx will run on a 68010. I think that's the problem. I've nevre heard of anyone having said version. I beleiv the problem is the DMA controller and MMU, which are both very different from thsse in later machines. > You can try to install 9.XX, but the HP-UX media I have is a CD, you can get > the images from me or if needed I can send you the CD's. > You can find some info at : > http://www.pimpworks.org/hp/hpuxfaq.html > and better at : > http://www.faqs.org/faqs/hp/hpux-faq/ > > a quote :\ > Series 100 Motorola 680x0? n/a What's the 'seriwes 100' here? I know of the HP series 100 machines (the CP/M nd MS-DOS ones), but I've not heard of those classed as HP9000s. > Series 200 Motorola 680x0 2.x, 5.1 One of the FAQs you mention claims that the series 200s don't run HP-UX at all. This is clearly nonsense, sinces that's what the 'U' in '9836CU' means. But having seen the source of that comment, I know to treat it with a large dose of NaCL... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 8 15:03:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 21:03:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E677898.32766.13EF11B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 7, 11 01:58:48 pm Message-ID: > > On 7 Sep 2011 at 21:22, Tony Duell wrote: > > > This of course assumes you don't rgard laser printers as part of > > computer history and therefore worth preserving. I cuuld mention that > > many computers hve nice mais transofrmers in them too (PDP8s, PDP11s, > > P850s, HP9800 calculators, HP9826s and HP9836s, etc), but anyone who > > strips those for parts is liable to be LARTed > > After a time, it simply becomes uneconomical to operate one, compared I never said you should run one as your only (or main) printer :-). It's probaby uneconomical to run a PDP8 as your only computer system, but plenty of u run PDP8s from time to time. I know I'm strange, but being a hardware person I do find interest in things other than the processors. If nobody preserves printers, plotters, modems, etc, then part of the history of computing is going to be lost. That/'s why, incidentally, in a couple of days time I am demonstating a printer that's almost 40 years old, taking it apart to show the internals, nnd describing the intricacies of the control system (it's beautiful, and to think the ROM is only 32 bytes long...) > to a modern laser printer. Take, for example, the Panasonic KX- > P4451, fairly representative of these old beasts. Circa 1990, uses a > massive print engine that was also shared with their plain-paper > faxes and compiers. 13 PPM, Appletalk interface as well as the usual > serial and parallel. Nice printer, but the separate toner, OPC drum, > developer and ozone filter units will set you back a lot now per copy- > -assuming you can find a functioning OPC unit (they do have a shelf > life). > > Why bother when you can buy a Brother desktop laser that costs almost > nothing to refill, runs just as fast and even has ethernet I've not used either, but I can think of one possible reason to keep the older unit going -- because it's more relaible. The fact that the newer unit is cheaper to run, and cheaper to replace, doesn't help much when somethign failes on aSunday afternoon and you need to get printout done for monday morning... > connectivity? And printers appear to have very little collector > value, judging from the units I can't even give away. You know full well that financial value is not a reason for collecting something. -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 8 16:05:29 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 23:05:29 +0200 Subject: hp 9000/382 In-Reply-To: References: <000001cc6d9f$fae8cc10$f0ba6430$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 7, 11 10:51:50 pm Message-ID: <002001cc6e6b$0dc3bef0$294b3cd0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: donderdag 8 september 2011 21:57 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: hp 9000/382 > > > For as far I know you need a lot of RAM 1 or 2 MB the more the better, > > and > > That's not a problem. My 9836CU has 4M in it, I think there's 2M in the 9817, but > I have some odd 1M boards around anyway. > > > you will need a CS80 drive and the obvious fast HP-IB controller with > > DMA installed or a SCSI controller with the DMA option installed... > > You also need a tape or CD with HP-UX 2.X or 5.1 on it because I don't > > think HP-UX 9.xx will run on a 68010. > > I think that's the problem. I've nevre heard of anyone having said version. I > beleiv the problem is the DMA controller and MMU, which are both very > different from thsse in later machines. > Yes that's why I think it's doubtful a 68010 will run HP-UX 9.XX > > You can try to install 9.XX, but the HP-UX media I have is a CD, you > > can get the images from me or if needed I can send you the CD's. > > You can find some info at : > > http://www.pimpworks.org/hp/hpuxfaq.html > > and better at : > > http://www.faqs.org/faqs/hp/hpux-faq/ > > > > a quote :\ > > Series 100 Motorola 680x0? n/a > > What's the 'seriwes 100' here? I know of the HP series 100 machines (the CP/M > nd MS-DOS ones), but I've not heard of those classed as HP9000s. > > > Series 200 Motorola 680x0 2.x, 5.1 > > One of the FAQs you mention claims that the series 200s don't run HP-UX at all. > This is clearly nonsense, sinces that's what the 'U' in '9836CU' > means. Yep, true... But having seen the source of that comment, I know to treat it with a > large dose of NaCL... > > -tony -Rik From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 17:17:21 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 19:17:21 -0300 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! References: Message-ID: > I've not used either, but I can think of one possible reason to keep the > older unit going -- because it's more relaible. The fact that the newer > unit is cheaper to run, and cheaper to replace, doesn't help much when > somethign failes on aSunday afternoon and you need to get printout done > for monday morning... Tony, I have a pair of HP Laserjet printers. A 4 Plus (EX+ engine) and a brand new 1102W, USB, Wireless et al. My HP4+ is a workhorse. Some 500.000 pages and 10 years after, it is STILL going strong - gasp - WITHOUT NEED OF A N Y MAINTENANCE. When I got it with some 130000 pages printed, I disassembled everything and truly remanufactured the printer. This is my "xod?" (a thing you like too much, like your girlfriend or mother, but an object). BUT I just got this 1102, and it works like a charm. I already disassembled one, and there aren't much parts to break. Although it is almost everything plastic, I **truly believe** this printer will outlast the HP4 with lots of advantages. Time will see. When something fails sunday afternoon, I just fix it, whatever it is. Or take the file into a pendrive and print it on the local copy shop. > You know full well that financial value is not a reason for collecting > something. Some people sees it as a reason :oP From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 8 18:46:43 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 16:46:43 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: References: <4E677898.32766.13EF11B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 7, 11 01:58:48 pm, Message-ID: <4E68F173.12159.1D40F8C@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Sep 2011 at 21:03, Tony Duell wrote: > I never said you should run one as your only (or main) printer :-). > It's probaby uneconomical to run a PDP8 as your only computer system, > but plenty of u run PDP8s from time to time. Space is money. And lots of unused bulky stuff makes me uneasy. I keep thinking about the scenario of me dropping dead tomorrow (a friend who's quite a bit younger than I did just that over last weekend) leaving my widow to dispose of this stuff. I know her-- she'll pay someone to pull up two big trucks. One will be hauling a big dumpster; the other will haul a trailer heading for the local electronics recycler. I just can't do that to her, sorry. Someone wants this stuff, they can come and get it or have it shipped. Otherwise, I'll salvage the interesting bits and dispose of the rest. > That/'s why, incidentally, in a couple of days time I am demonstating > a printer that's almost 40 years old, taking it apart to show the > internals, nnd describing the intricacies of the control system (it's > beautiful, and to think the ROM is only 32 bytes long. What, you've found a 1403? > I've not used either, but I can think of one possible reason to keep > the older unit going -- because it's more relaible. I'm not convinced of that--it's only 300 DPI, and requires special (expensive) supplies and is incredibly messy to refill (the toner is loose in a bottle and is dumped into a compartment when refilling. Gloves are included--and required). Better than the old wet-process printers, but not something I care to fool with. --Chuck From jonas at otter.se Thu Sep 8 03:45:32 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 10:45:32 +0200 Subject: Train shipping ( was Re: VT fixums ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68b56bb694f0f97dc31c15eee792a631@otter.se> On Wed, 7 Sep 2011 18:55:44 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >> > An AR88 (RCA communcations receiver) >> >> You *carried* an AR88 on a train??? They weigh, what, 45 kgs? You >> >> must >> > >> > Well, I didn't hold it for the netire journey, if that's what you >> > mean. >> > It sat on the luggage rack between Bristol and London... >> >> I hope not the overhead rack? I certainly wouldn't like to take an > > No, fortuanely not. It was one of those '125' trains, with the > luggage > racks at the ends of the carriages. it went there, on a shelf of a > suitable height. > *Phew* >> AR-88 down from an overhead luggage rack, let alone putting it up >> there, >> and certainly not having it fall out if something happened... >> Brrr... > > Knowing the cosntruction of modern trains, an AR88 would prboably go > straight through the flooe :-) > I bet. There is interesting reading at www.raib.gov.uk >> > I am insulted! I have spent my entire life avoiding exercise, and >> I >> > don't >> > intend changing that. I have never done any uncnessary exercise. >> > >> >> No offence meant! :-) > > Actually, I assuemd you'd seen at last one photo of me on the web > (thre's > one on the HPCC wrbsite in last year's confernce photos [1]), which > should indicate that I am truely a high mass hobbyist :-) > Yes, I have seen your photo, which is why I wondered about the "carrying" bit... ;-) However I might have done something as crazy as actually carry an AR88 onto a train myself, even though I have never worked out myself either previously (I have to now, my back is too painful otherwise owing to many years of working at a computer in badly conceived workplaces. A herniated disc and a doctor finally convinced me exercise was the only way to not be in constant severe pain). 45 kg is really heavy... /Jonas From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 10:41:43 2011 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 11:41:43 -0400 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? Message-ID: The problem with the Unisite is that it needs massive quantities of pin driver cards (17 if memory serves). And the Unisite I own only has ONE. :={ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 8 12:30:54 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 10:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E640A99.3060900@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1315503054.39921.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > >> Nobody told me the cpu guts were buried under the > >> motherboard, so I threw one out (I found it in the > snow in Freehold, > >> NJ alongside route 9). > > > >???Why would the location of the > motherboard cause you to trash a machine? That's not what I said. Work w/me Dave :) I didn't know the guts were under the motherboard proper (or more accurately on the underside of the mobo). So I scrounged the memory and whatnot, and tossed the rest out. I had assumed that this unit was missing the cpu card, seeing there wasn't one present, as would be the case in a proper well bred fine piece of computing garbage. Repeat it was in the not knowing where the guts were that made me to perform this horrible act of indecency. And incidentally, I do like them. I just somehow dislike them at the same time (they're just different, unorthodox in some ways). They earned general high marks w/me, being they were pretty much fully compatible, and yet had that 640 x 400 color option. I've never owned a color capable 6300/M24/Xerox ?, but still want to :( My HP series 9000 PC305 is also missing it's cpu card (and the 68000 board thing also). Don't worry, I thoroughly checked underneath the motherboard - nothing there. If anyone can help me out, I'd be most indebted. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 9 02:48:53 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 00:48:53 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <1315503054.39921.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <4E640A99.3060900@atarimuseum.com>, <1315503054.39921.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E696275.8079.38D820B@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Sep 2011 at 10:30, Chris M wrote: > And incidentally, I do like them. I just somehow dislike them at the > same time (they're just different, unorthodox in some ways). They > earned general high marks w/me, being they were pretty much fully > compatible, and yet had that 640 x 400 color option. I've never owned > a color capable 6300/M24/Xerox ?, but still want to :( One bonus is that they work very well with a modern VGA monitor--at least the one I have does (rev. P8 video). But I'll agree with the unorthodox part. But that inverted motherboard means that the NiCad clock battery (it has a clock) when it leaks, the goo goes *down*, off the board instead of coming down onto it. I expect that most of the 6300 batteries in existence have leaked in the 25 years since this system was introduced. But the video card serving the purpose of bridging the "bus converter" board and the main CPU board and supplying power to both is a little bizarre. I can't say that I like the keyboard and there's not a lot of room for hard drives in the case (Olivetti/AT&T did offer a sidecar if more room was needed). What was the application of the Z8530 SCC (socket normally unpopulated)? --Chuck From bdwheele at indiana.edu Fri Sep 9 07:42:33 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 08:42:33 -0400 Subject: DEC PWS 500au boot failure In-Reply-To: References: <01O5PNYO6F4I000HHT@beyondthepale.ie> <1315313562.1976.5.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <1315572154.24965.1.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> I did the terminal only and still nothing. Anybody have any clues as to what might be going on? On Tue, 2011-09-06 at 07:55 -0700, Tom publix wrote: > You definitely need to disconnect the mouse and keyboard for the serial port > to work. Otherwise it outputs to the graphics card and if that is your > problem, you will not know!! The PWS default to the ARC bios and you will > have to wait several minutes for the firmware diagnostics to check things. > You should then get an output with a message to "press F2" or something. If > you get this message your machine has run its test and you can reset the > values in the ARC bios or switch the SRM console. > > If the machine is OK and the messages output to the your serial terminal, > you can put back the Graphics card, mouse and keyboard and boot again. If > your graphics card works, you should get the output to your VGA monitor > (make sure you have the correct sync rate, otherwise you will not get an > output, the default rate for a powerstorm is like a 1240x1024 which some > monitors wont do. You might have to set the switches on the card to output > the a sync rate your monitor can handle (1024x768 @ 60hz) should do. After > all the messages appear on your VGA monitor , you should also get a prompt ( > three chevrons)on your serial console (but no messages) > > On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > > On Tue, 2011-09-06 at 00:18 +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > > > > > >I went to fire up my DEC Personal Workstation 500au the other day and it > > > >doesn't boot up any more :( > > > > > > > >I don't get anything out of video or the serial console and the > > > >diagnostic lights all go out (00) rather than displaying an error or > > > >booting message. The battery in it was dead and I replaced it but to no > > > >avail. > > > > > > > >Anybody come across this before and know how to fix it? > > > > > > > > > > I don't know much about the DEC Personal Workstation 500au but... > > > > > > Did the battery leak? I have a VAXStation 2000 which had a leaky battery > > > which did some damage on the system board. (Fortunately, it was not > > severe > > > and it is now repaired.) Check around the battery and near where the > > battery > > > is connected to the system board as electrolyte can wick along the leads. > > > > > > > Nope, no leakage. > > > > > Does it beep? I'm not sure about this one but some alphas will emit beep > > > codes, if they fail before being able to access the console and some of > > the > > > codes may be explained in the manual. > > > > > > > > > Not supposed to beep unless there's problems, and I took out the memory > > and it does beep :) > > > > > Presumably there are some signs of life such as fans running and/or > > lights > > > lighting? The next step is probably to check that the power supply is > > producing > > > all the required voltages. Maybe there is a label specifying what they > > should > > > be :-) Maybe not :-( > > > > > > > The fans spin, the drives power up, and the diagnostic lights start > > doing their thing. But instead of showing the code for being in the > > console or whatever, then all turn off. > > > > I just read that alphabios will ignore the serial port if there is a > > keyboard/mouse/video card plugged in (which I do) so I'll probably pull > > those later and see if alphabios decides to start talking to me on the > > serial port. > > > > Brian > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Peter Coghlan. > > > > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Sep 9 07:51:33 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 08:51:33 -0400 Subject: via LisaList - Fwd: Original Lisa 1 for sale Message-ID: <4E6A0BD5.1050801@telegraphics.com.au> I'll just leave this here. --Toby -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Original Lisa 1 for sale Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 15:23:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Shapiro Reply-To: lisalist at googlegroups.com To: LisaList Just finished restoring my Lisa 1. Comes with original software... most still shrink wrapped! Boots, runs, works. Updated with refurbished power supply, logic board, hard drive (X/Profile in addition, so it will run from flash drive, if desired). Twiggy drives, of course. Just trying to gauge if this is of interest to anyone. Last one sold on eBay in January for $15,000. -- ----- You received this message because you are a member of the LisaList group. The group FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/lisa.html To post to this group, send email to lisalist at googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to lisalist+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lisalist From bdwheele at indiana.edu Fri Sep 9 07:56:27 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 08:56:27 -0400 Subject: DECstation 5000/120 bad power supply... Message-ID: <1315572987.24965.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> It looks like the power supply to my decstation 5000/120 is shot. The storage expansion, which is connected to the the switched C13 on the power supply, powered up as expected but nothing on the box itself. There was a bit of a smell, but no magic smoke :) So how hard is it to repair a power supply for this? My soldering skills are mediocre at best. Should I bite the bullet and turn it into this monstrosity: http://web.archive.org/web/20041210172801/http://www.xanthos.se/~joachim/DS-ATX.html Its really not been my week with my DEC equipment. I almost hesitate to power up my vaxes! Brian From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Sep 9 08:27:42 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 09:27:42 -0400 Subject: Looking asr33 interfacing AND NEMA crypto machine help in Ojai, California Message-ID: <201109091327.p89DRjRp059848@billy.ezwind.net> I AM FORWARDING A MESSAGE FROM A GUY WHO HAS SOME PROJECT WORK. I BELIEVE HE WILL BE WILLING TO PAY FOR SERVICE. IF INTERESTED CONTACT ME DIRECTLY AND I WILL FORWARD REPLIES TO JOHN "..I have a TELEX from the 70s (it was used when I bought it) that I last used in business in 1993. The motor runs but I can't get it to work. So, I need someone who can get it back into working order; although I won't be hooking it up to a Western Union line (if that is even possible today). I also want to be able to use it as a printer for my laptop. In addition, I have a Swiss NEMA machine (the Swiss update of the German Enigma crypto machine). It has output to a teletypewriter and I would love to see if my TELEX could be hooked up to it. I live in Ojai, CA, which is 36 miles South of Santa Barbara. Thanks, John Fickewirth .." END FORWARDED MESSAGE thanks Bill From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 11:45:11 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 13:45:11 -0300 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? References: Message-ID: <070CC1381FB6402EB174EC3D0E2C21D4@portajara> Maybe you can program 8-pin devices with this one? =) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Kahrs" To: Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 12:41 PM Subject: Re: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? > The problem with the Unisite is that it needs massive quantities of pin > driver cards (17 if memory serves). And the Unisite I own only has ONE. > > :={ From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Sep 9 13:00:35 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 14:00:35 -0400 Subject: Kilobaud Micro, October, November 1979? Message-ID: <025f01cc6f1a$604291b0$20c7b510$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Hi, Does anybody have a copies of the October and November 1979 issues of Kilobaud Microcomputing that they would be willing to scan an article from? I can't seem to find on the net anywhere. I would like to read: Thoughts on the SWTP computer system. Part 6. A close look at three of the six disk systems that are available for the SWTP. They are: LFD-400 from Percom, BFD-68 from Smoke Signal Broadcasting and MF-68 from SWTP. KILOBAUD MICROCOMPUTING #34 Oct 1979 pg. 30 Thoughts on the SWTP computer system. Part 6 (continued). An in-depth look at the Percom LFD-400 disk system. KILOBAUD MICROCOMPUTING #35 Nov 1979 pg. 86 Maybe also, this if you are feeling generous: Product review of Percom's LFD-400 floppy disk system for the SS-50 bus. KILOBAUD MICROCOMPUTING #26 Feb 1979 pg. 80 Thanks, Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 9 12:28:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 18:28:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <1315503054.39921.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Sep 8, 11 10:30:54 am Message-ID: > I didn't know the guts were under the motherboard proper (or more accura= > tely on the underside of the mobo). So I scrounged the memory and whatnot= > , and tossed the rest out. I had assumed that this unit was missing the c= > pu card, seeing there wasn't one present, as would be the case in a prope= > r well bred fine piece of computing garbage. I know it's easy to be wise in retrospect, but that's why you remove every bit of casing uyou can ;-) Hang on though... IIRC this machine there are external connectors (keyboard, printer, probably RS232) on thr CPU board. If you take the top cover off the machine, you can't see the backs of these conenctors, which should imply there's something hidden under the main chassis. Incidentally, some later Olivetti machines had a more traditional passive backplane design with the CPU/memory on an ISA card. > > Repeat it was in the not knowing where the guts were that made me to per= > form this horrible act of indecency. > > And incidentally, I do like them. I just somehow dislike them at the sam= > e time (they're just different, unorthodox in some ways). They earned gen= I thought we tended to like the unorthodox stuff here :-) > eral high marks w/me, being they were pretty much fully compatible, and y= > et had that 640 x 400 color option. I've never owned a color capable 6300= > /M24/Xerox ?, but still want to :( > > My HP series 9000 PC305 is also missing it's cpu card (and the 68000 boa= > rd thing also). Don't worry, I thoroughly checked underneath the motherbo= > ard - nothing there. If anyone can help me out, I'd be most indebted. This can be another result of board-swapping :-(. The previous owner finds a board has failed (ither from the diagnostics, or by swapping it with one in a similar machine) and then throws out the defective board becuase it's (incorrectly) believed it can't be repaired. Oh well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 9 12:43:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 18:43:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E68F173.12159.1D40F8C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 8, 11 04:46:43 pm Message-ID: > > On 8 Sep 2011 at 21:03, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I never said you should run one as your only (or main) printer :-). > > It's probaby uneconomical to run a PDP8 as your only computer system, > > but plenty of u run PDP8s from time to time. > > Space is money. And lots of unused bulky stuff makes me uneasy. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Why? How would not having the printe sitting in the corner of the workshop (or whatever) increase your income? > > That/'s why, incidentally, in a couple of days time I am demonstating > > a printer that's almost 40 years old, taking it apart to show the > > internals, nnd describing the intricacies of the control system (it's > > beautiful, and to think the ROM is only 32 bytes long. > > What, you've found a 1403? Alas not. This is a much smaller printer from another manufacturer. I suppsoe it's techncially a line printer in that the print head is the full width of the pwper and doens't move, but it doesn't produce characters in one go either. I case you're puizzled, it's an HP9866A thermal printer. The printhead has a row of 400 elements across the paper. It outputs the dot patterns for one fow of dots in all the characters of the line, the nmoves the paper up by one dot-line, then does the next row of dots, and so on. Actually, it's more complciated than that. To save on printhead connections and PSU loading, it acutally outputs the dots for one romw of characters 0,4,8,12,etc then the ons for 1,5,9,13, etc, then 2,6,10,14,.. and finally 3,7,11,15,... before moving the paper. The control system is a 32-state state machine with internactions between the possible next states and the condition to select between them. It's quite elegant. > > > I've not used either, but I can think of one possible reason to keep > > the older unit going -- because it's more relaible. > > I'm not convinced of that--it's only 300 DPI, and requires special > (expensive) supplies and is incredibly messy to refill (the toner is None of that tells me anything about the reliability... > loose in a bottle and is dumped into a compartment when refilling. > Gloves are included--and required). Better than the old wet-process > printers, but not something I care to fool with. You knwo,m I'd actually quite like a Canon LBP10 or similar wet laser printer. But not enough to pay shipping on one :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 9 12:36:08 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 18:36:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Sep 8, 11 07:17:21 pm Message-ID: [...] > BUT I just got this 1102, and it works like a charm. I already=20 > disassembled one, and there aren't much parts to break. Although it is=20 > almost everything plastic, I **truly believe** this printer will outlast = Yes, but virtually everything is plastic in all Canon print engines, even the CX. Anyway, parts other htan plasitc mechandcial bits can fail... > the=20 > HP4 with lots of advantages. Time will see. > > When something fails sunday afternoon, I just fix it, whatever it is.= Cutting a replacement for a custom gear is bad enough, but how on earth do ytou repair a fuser lamp on a Sunday afternoon? > Or=20 > take the file into a pendrive and print it on the local copy shop. > > > You know full well that financial value is not a reason for collecting > > something. Unfrotunately less, but I didn't think there were many such collectors among the active people on this list. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 9 13:11:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 19:11:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: DECstation 5000/120 bad power supply... In-Reply-To: <1315572987.24965.7.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> from "Brian Wheeler" at Sep 9, 11 08:56:27 am Message-ID: > > It looks like the power supply to my decstation 5000/120 is shot. The > storage expansion, which is connected to the the switched C13 on the > power supply, powered up as expected but nothing on the box itself. That power outlet is almost certainly just connected to the mains input circuirty and doesn't sepend on the rest of the PSU working. Brefore you go any further, I think you could check that the PSU outputs really are dead (all of the? Just some?) using a voltmeter. The hard part of doinf this is that fidning out what the various ouptu wires actually are. If possible, replace the guts of the machine with a dummy load (6V and 12V bulbs) just in case a short in the rest of the machine shutting everything down. I doubt i,though. > > There was a bit of a smell, but no magic smoke :) So how hard is it to > repair a power supply for this? My soldering skills are mediocre at That depends on what is wrong with it... You're not going to get schematics, so oyu are verymuch on your own. And remember there are lethal voltags (like 350V DC with a high current availability) in there, and that much of th circuitry is most likely driectly connected to the mains How I'd attack this would be to open up the PSU and find/check the mains input rectifier, maisn smoothing capacitors, chopper transistor(s) (If that's failed, I then expect a lot of work), and the startup resistor. But even fidning those cna be non-triivial if you've not worked on PSUs before. -tony From shumaker at att.net Fri Sep 9 15:15:51 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 13:15:51 -0700 Subject: Kilobaud Micro, October, November 1979? In-Reply-To: <025f01cc6f1a$604291b0$20c7b510$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <025f01cc6f1a$604291b0$20c7b510$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E6A73F7.70201@att.net> On 9/9/2011 11:00 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Hi, > > Does anybody have a copies of the October and November 1979 issues > of Kilobaud Microcomputing that they would be willing to scan an > article from? I can't seem to find on the net anywhere. I would > like to read: > > Thoughts on the SWTP computer system. Part 6. A close look at three > of the six disk systems that are available for the SWTP. They are: > LFD-400 from Percom, BFD-68 from Smoke Signal Broadcasting and MF-68 > from SWTP. > KILOBAUD MICROCOMPUTING #34 Oct 1979 pg. 30 > > Thoughts on the SWTP computer system. Part 6 (continued). An in-depth > look at the Percom LFD-400 disk system. > KILOBAUD MICROCOMPUTING #35 Nov 1979 pg. 86 > > Maybe also, this if you are feeling generous: > > Product review of Percom's LFD-400 floppy disk system for the SS-50 bus. > KILOBAUD MICROCOMPUTING #26 Feb 1979 pg. 80 > > Thanks, > Bill > > > scanning now. I'll send direct when done. steve From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 9 15:39:00 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 13:39:00 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: References: <4E68F173.12159.1D40F8C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 8, 11 04:46:43 pm, Message-ID: <4E6A16F4.27686.FD2116@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Sep 2011 at 18:43, Tony Duell wrote: > > Space is money. And lots of unused bulky stuff makes me uneasy. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Why? How would not having the printe sitting in the corner of the > workshop (or whatever) increase your income? Try to follow my reasoning here. 1. The printer's old; it's not unique nor does it do the job better than anything else I've got. 2. Having it sit in a corner of the shop means that it'll gather dust and take up space that might be better applied to something really useful. 3. I'm aware of my own mortality. Gambling that some day, someone would want it is a very long shot. I've had (IMOHO) more historically-important printers (e.g. Diablo daisy wheels) that have taken me years to give away for the price of shipping. And even then, given the amount of time put into packaging and hauling the thing around, it's a net loss. 4. Since nobody's willing to take it (and I've offered it in FreeCycle and Craigslist), it's probably worth more as parts. There's a lot of ZIP DRAM in there that just might interest an Amigaphile, a CPU, EPROMs galore, various nice mechanical parts, motors, transformers, etc. Taking it down to the local federally- subsidized recycling center would guarantee that it would be judged to be only worth its scrap metals value, so by tearing it to pieces, I'm actually putting it to a higher use. Sitting in a corner collecting dust isn't useful. 5. There are other things that I would like to have, that have some sentimental attachment to me. I'd love a Durango Poppy II, as I was part of the development team, for example. I still have engineering documents and disks that work with it. 6. I suppose that to someone who collects old clothes, throwing out old underwear is a sacrilege. But I don't and old underwear is just that. BHU for it is rags for paper production. I don't begrudge the scrappers one bit, as long as they practice their art in an environmentally responsible way. Some actually make some money by scavenging parts before turning the rest over to the refinery. For example, what's an old kitchen cooker worth? Not much at the local landfill or scrapyard, but scrounge the clock and a few other bits, you could actually make some money from it. I wish the scavenge and salvage approach extended to more of our lives. Poor dead uncle Jasper's body should be scavenged for parts that can do others some good. As uncle Jasper's nephew, his corpse may have sentimental value, but there's no reason to waste it by burying it or burning it. Better his bits and pieces should go to a better use. Give his eyes and organs to those who could benefit; boil his bones to make toothbrush handles; use the rest as fertilizer or food for wildlife. --Chuck From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Sep 9 17:22:32 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 23:22:32 +0100 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... Message-ID: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> I was just trawling through some of my file archives and found my old email address when at University: mwickens at vax2.luton.ac.uk - from 1993 to 1996 At the time I wasn't really into VAXen, but subsequently have wondered about the VAX that handled my emails during that time. In the last year a new Alpha system came online, and new email accounts were set up on that box. Anyone had interested email addresses in the past, or an email address which represented a nostalgic time in their life. The fluidity of email addresses interests me academically and professionally - I work on systems which traditionally have involved postal communication, but are moving over to email based communication. This represents a challenge due to the fluidity of email addresses over the course of the years. Regards, Mark. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 17:42:11 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 17:42:11 -0500 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: 1ajs at pangea.ca << aww i miss that email :( On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > I was just trawling through some of my file archives and found my old email > address when at University: > > mwickens at vax2.luton.ac.uk - from 1993 to 1996 > > At the time I wasn't really into VAXen, but subsequently have wondered > about the VAX that handled my emails during that time. In the last year a > new Alpha system came online, and new email accounts were set up on that > box. > > Anyone had interested email addresses in the past, or an email address > which represented a nostalgic time in their life. > > The fluidity of email addresses interests me academically and > professionally - I work on systems which traditionally have involved postal > communication, but are moving over to email based communication. This > represents a challenge due to the fluidity of email addresses over the > course of the years. > > Regards, Mark. > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 9 17:40:09 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 15:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Sep 2011, Mark Wickens wrote: > Anyone had interested email addresses in the past, or an email address which > represented a nostalgic time in their life. Well, digging up an ancient copy of the "Linux BBS List" from '92, I see that I had the following... Internet -- healyzh at holonet.net CompuServe -- 70332,14 Prodigy -- SCNN49A Fido NetMail -- Zane Healy at 1:109/615 In just under 20 years my primary email address has changed 3 times (holonet, netcom, and aracnet). For 2-3 years I had both holonet and netcom. In each case, I've had the same username. It's not hard to track me down. :-) At the time I didn't realize the Compuserve account # was a PPN on a PDP-10. As for Prodigy, I definitely look back at it with more than a littel Nostalgia, as that was my first online experience. Zane From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 9 16:56:44 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 22:56:44 +0100 Subject: "Zilog 6502" in _IEEE Computer_ References: <4E63424F.13674.1C1610@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 4, 11 09:18:07 am, <4E6350A2.30417.5409FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E63B7CB.2050705@brouhaha.com> <013801cc6ce3$f79ba350$50fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E66A688.9040809@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <010701cc6f46$71c15030$35fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 12:02 AM Subject: Re: "Zilog 6502" in _IEEE Computer_ > Andrew Burton wrote: > > Who did create the original 6502 and 8080? I know the original Z80 was by > > Zilog (hence the Z!). > > 8080: Intel > 6502: MOS Technology (a company entirely unrelated to Mostek) > > Mostek never made a 6502 (or related parts), but was a licensed second > source for the Zilog Z80 family, Fairchild F8 family, and Motorola > MC68000 family. Mostek developed the MK3870 series single-chip > microcontrollers based on the F8. Mostek was originally was a fab > partner for Zilog, before Zilog built their own fab (contrary to the > Wikipedia claim that Western Design Center was the first fabless > semiconductor company). > > Nevertheless, there are a zillion web sites that claim that MOSTEK made > the 6502. > > Zilog never made the 6502 either. > Thanks for the information :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From chrise at pobox.com Fri Sep 9 18:33:30 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 18:33:30 -0500 Subject: Kilobaud Micro, October, November 1979? In-Reply-To: <025f01cc6f1a$604291b0$20c7b510$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <025f01cc6f1a$604291b0$20c7b510$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20110909233330.GI14196@n0jcf.net> On Friday (09/09/2011 at 02:00PM -0400), Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Hi, > > Does anybody have a copies of the October and November 1979 issues > of Kilobaud Microcomputing that they would be willing to scan an > article from? I can't seem to find on the net anywhere. I would > like to read: > > Thoughts on the SWTP computer system. Part 6. A close look at three > of the six disk systems that are available for the SWTP. They are: > LFD-400 from Percom, BFD-68 from Smoke Signal Broadcasting and MF-68 > from SWTP. > KILOBAUD MICROCOMPUTING #34 Oct 1979 pg. 30 > > Thoughts on the SWTP computer system. Part 6 (continued). An in-depth > look at the Percom LFD-400 disk system. > KILOBAUD MICROCOMPUTING #35 Nov 1979 pg. 86 > > Maybe also, this if you are feeling generous: > > Product review of Percom's LFD-400 floppy disk system for the SS-50 bus. > KILOBAUD MICROCOMPUTING #26 Feb 1979 pg. 80 I'm not sure if I have the KILOBAUD issues-- I will check-- but I definitely have the Percom LFD-400, still working, in my SWTPC 6800. Nice to see another fan/user here. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 18:34:19 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 19:34:19 -0400 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: References: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: > Well, digging up an ancient copy of the "Linux BBS List" from '92, I see > that I had the following... I had the sexy sounding 7FADDONZE at msoe.edu, but I do not think there are any remains of that. It was circa 1990. After that I had integrat at usr.com, an account I took over while making AOL modem racks. My "real" usr.com account withered away, as I never used it. Every so often I see remains of that on the net. Then there was my beloved william at ans.net... OK, I am crying now... (not really) -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 18:36:55 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 19:36:55 -0400 Subject: "Zilog 6502" in _IEEE Computer_ In-Reply-To: <010701cc6f46$71c15030$35fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4E63424F.13674.1C1610@cclist.sydex.com> <4E6350A2.30417.5409FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E63B7CB.2050705@brouhaha.com> <013801cc6ce3$f79ba350$50fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E66A688.9040809@brouhaha.com> <010701cc6f46$71c15030$35fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: > Thanks for the information :) Of course, now someone is going to dig up a tube of Mostek 6502s. Strange things happen. Fairly recently a friend showed me some 7400 series logic made by Transitron. Instant woody. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Fri Sep 9 18:42:05 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 23:42:05 +0000 Subject: Kilobaud Micro, October, November 1979? Message-ID: <1729606063-1315611726-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-768734285-@b13.c15.bise6.blackberry> >>> I definitely have the Percom LFD-400, still working, in my SWTPC 6800. Nice to see another fan/user here. Chris Hi Chris. Sorry if this is redundant, but, are you new to our list? If so, then please introduce yourself. Interests, how you found out about us, location, etc. -- thanks. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Sep 9 19:10:40 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 17:10:40 -0700 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <132f5755817cbed06099b93765de7037@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Sep 9, at 3:22 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > Anyone had interested email addresses in the past, or an email address > which represented a nostalgic time in their life. > > The fluidity of email addresses interests me academically and > professionally - I work on systems which traditionally have involved > postal communication, but are moving over to email based > communication. This represents a challenge due to the fluidity of > email addresses over the course of the years. I was working-on/developing email systems in the early 80's, so had a fairly early domain-style email address. I haven't 'intentionally' changed my email address for nearly 30 years, but it has changed underneath me due to network developments and bureaucratic changes: ~ 1983 - 1986 : hilpert at ean.ubc.cdn . . ~ 1986 - 1991 : hilpert at ean.ubc.ca Canada top level domain changed to "ca" ~ 1991 - present: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca machineNames amalgamated into departmental domain Our project initiated the top-level domain for Canada, but there were two sets of international standards for country-codes/abbreviations (ISO and some other body; these were codes for general use, such as by postal services, telecoms, governments, licensing authorities, etc.) This was before the INA or internet authorities-of-the-time had specified rules about top-level domains, so we chose one of the standards and hence the domain name "cdn". As the Internet grew internationally the other standard was decided upon for country top level domains (the 2-letter country codes), so we switched the Canada top-level domain to "ca". Had an earlier (< 1983) email address when the Verex project had an early gateway connection to the ARPANET. (Verex was an intermediate step between Thoth and the VKernel, for those into OS history). From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Sep 9 19:12:04 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 20:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Sep 2011, Mark Wickens wrote: > I was just trawling through some of my file archives and found my old email > address when at University: > > mwickens at vax2.luton.ac.uk - from 1993 to 1996 > > At the time I wasn't really into VAXen, but subsequently have wondered about > the VAX that handled my emails during that time. In the last year a new Alpha > system came online, and new email accounts were set up on that box. Speaking of VAXen and email, my collection includes the VAX 4000/300 purchased by Rowan University in NJ (then Glassboro State College) in 1991. It was online as saturn.rowan.edu until 2001, as one of the systems which allowed student internet accounts. The guide to using the system is still available: ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/eff/Net_culture/Net_info/Guidebooks/VMS_net_guide/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 19:35:09 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 21:35:09 -0300 Subject: "Zilog 6502" in _IEEE Computer_ References: <4E63424F.13674.1C1610@cclist.sydex.com> <4E6350A2.30417.5409FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4E63B7CB.2050705@brouhaha.com> <013801cc6ce3$f79ba350$50fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E66A688.9040809@brouhaha.com> <010701cc6f46$71c15030$35fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <187D920A2D8848999889603043643C47@portajara> > Strange things happen. Fairly recently a friend showed me some 7400 > series logic made by Transitron. Instant woody. I believe I still have some TTLs made in Brazil by SID (a local brand) From jws at jwsss.com Fri Sep 9 20:21:02 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 18:21:02 -0700 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <4E6ABB7E.7020900@jwsss.com> jws at ni.net is about as short an address as I ever had. They were gobbled up by a number of ISPs and lost the nifty 2 letter domain, or abandoned it. No idea what a 2 letter one goes for now days, probably as much asn an Apple Lisa. Network Innovations was located in Irvine, Ca and offered dial-in PPP service. Never had any of the other useless access methods, before that was doing direct BBS accessing. I had net access other ways earlier, and got a shell account (still have it) at world.std.com, the first provider of open shell access with a system connected to the internet. However it was way cheaper to connect via ni.net, and get into that system. On 9/9/2011 3:22 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > I was just trawling through some of my file archives and found my old > email address when at University: > > mwickens at vax2.luton.ac.uk - from 1993 to 1996 > > At the time I wasn't really into VAXen, but subsequently have wondered > about the VAX that handled my emails during that time. In the last > year a new Alpha system came online, and new email accounts were set > up on that box. > > Anyone had interested email addresses in the past, or an email address > which represented a nostalgic time in their life. > > The fluidity of email addresses interests me academically and > professionally - I work on systems which traditionally have involved > postal communication, but are moving over to email based > communication. This represents a challenge due to the fluidity of > email addresses over the course of the years. > > Regards, Mark. > > From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Sep 9 21:33:01 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 19:33:01 -0700 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: References: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Loewen > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 5:12 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Interesting email addresses of old... > > On Fri, 9 Sep 2011, Mark Wickens wrote: > > > I was just trawling through some of my file archives and found my old > email > > address when at University: > > > > mwickens at vax2.luton.ac.uk - from 1993 to 1996 > > > > At the time I wasn't really into VAXen, but subsequently have wondered > about > > the VAX that handled my emails during that time. In the last year a new > Alpha > > system came online, and new email accounts were set up on that box. > > Speaking of VAXen and email, my collection includes the VAX 4000/300 > purchased by Rowan University in NJ (then Glassboro State College) in > 1991. It was online as saturn.rowan.edu until 2001, as one of the systems > which allowed student internet accounts. The guide to using the system is > still available: > > ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/eff/Net_culture/Net_info/Guidebooks/VMS_net_gu > ide/ > Speaking of old VAXen and email and, well, the same story in a lot of respects: a machine in my personal collection is a VAX 4000/300 (a great box) that had served as nessie.wwu.edu (an OS was on the machine and I did a conversational boot into it just to see what was what). I picked it up from a manufacturing company that had acquired it as part of a larger lot and didn't know what to do with it. Years later, when I started working at the Living Computer Museum, my manager mentioned he'd been at Western Washington University, had learned assembly language programming on a VAX, and he wondered what had ever happened to "nessie". We connected the dots, and... imagine how jealous he is that I have that machine! I've had to replace a power supply but other than that it's run great for me. -- Ian From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Sep 9 22:07:01 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 23:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: References: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Sep 2011, Ian King wrote: >> On Fri, 9 Sep 2011, Mike Loewen wrote: >> >> Speaking of VAXen and email, my collection includes the VAX 4000/300 >> purchased by Rowan University in NJ (then Glassboro State College) in >> 1991. It was online as saturn.rowan.edu until 2001, as one of the systems >> which allowed student internet accounts. The guide to using the system is >> still available: >> > Speaking of old VAXen and email and, well, the same story in a lot of > respects: a machine in my personal collection is a VAX 4000/300 (a great > box) that had served as nessie.wwu.edu (an OS was on the machine and I > did a conversational boot into it just to see what was what). I picked > it up from a manufacturing company that had acquired it as part of a > larger lot and didn't know what to do with it. > > Years later, when I started working at the Living Computer Museum, my > manager mentioned he'd been at Western Washington University, had > learned assembly language programming on a VAX, and he wondered what had > ever happened to "nessie". We connected the dots, and... imagine how > jealous he is that I have that machine! I've had to replace a power > supply but other than that it's run great for me. -- Ian I've had to replace the power supply in both cabinets in mine. Similar contact story from someone who found my VAX page: "Saw your page - man that brings back memories. My dad had an Alumni account at Rowan in the early 90s and that VAX is how I learned about the Internet and IRC, via a dialup terminal. Glad to know its still kicking somewhere!" Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jonas at otter.se Fri Sep 9 12:33:53 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 19:33:53 +0200 Subject: printers was: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E6A4E01.9030801@otter.se> On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 21:03:24 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > That/'s why, incidentally, in a couple of days time I am demonstating > a printer that's almost 40 years old, taking it apart to show the > internals, nnd describing the intricacies of the control system (it's > beautiful, and to think the ROM is only 32 bytes long...) Please tell us which one :-) > You know full well that financial value is not a reason for collecting > something. Unfortunately that is not the case for those transatlantic gentlemen who spend their time on eBay buying "rare gold computer chips" for insane amounts of money, driving up the prices for the rest of us :-( /Jonas From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Sep 10 03:21:22 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 04:21:22 -0400 Subject: printers was: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! References: <4E6A4E01.9030801@otter.se> Message-ID: <9F70FF91A6D94E63A7299BDDD1111A65@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonas Otter" To: Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 1:33 PM Subject: Re: printers was: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! > On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 21:03:24 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony > Duell) wrote: >> That/'s why, incidentally, in a couple of days time I am demonstating a >> printer that's almost 40 years old, taking it apart to show the >> internals, nnd describing the intricacies of the control system (it's >> beautiful, and to think the ROM is only 32 bytes long...) > Please tell us which one :-) >> You know full well that financial value is not a reason for collecting >> something. > Unfortunately that is not the case for those transatlantic gentlemen who > spend their time on eBay buying "rare gold computer chips" for insane > amounts of money, driving up the prices for the rest of us :-( > > /Jonas So we have to deal with the same problems that people who collect ancient coins made of gold and silver deal with. If you want to collect them you need to pay more then melt value. I suspect most Pentium Pros with the gold top will be melted down, same with most 486 and very early Pentium 1's. I would assume quite a few old computer relics were recycled back in the last gold rush as well. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 10 04:06:37 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 10:06:37 +0100 Subject: Desoldering (Again) Message-ID: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com> (resending from a different account, apologies if this is a duplicate) I have a 16-pin IC to desolder and I am struggling. Since I last asked about desoldering I have got a lot better with a de-soldering pump and can now clear the hole in the sense that I see a black hole rather than solder, and I can see daylight through all the holes (but for most of the holes this is only if I angle the board the right way). However, in this case the solder seems to be going all the way through and slightly onto the component side surface where I can't get at it with the pump. I have jiggled the pins to try to break any last bits of solder, but the chip is still very solidly attached. Any advice? Thanks Rob From mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com Sat Sep 10 07:08:06 2011 From: mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com (Martin Bishop) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 13:08:06 +0100 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com> References: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Rob I'm not surprised you are struggling : a non trivial evolution I'll presume that we are talking DIP, and that you can't cut the legs off - as removal without damage to either PEC or device is required. If the chip is "toast" then cut the legs close to the package (e.g. Lindstrom 7191) and remove each leg / clean up each via individually using the same methods but with better access and 14 easy rather than 1 difficult problem. Things which may work include: - solder (sucker) pump - resoldering almost dry joints, to get them dry on the next attempt - lots of flux : flux pen, liquid, gel, jelly (highly recommended) - solderwick rather than a solder pump Things which will work: - Pace SX-90 Sodr-X-tractor or similar hi-end tooling (my experience is that inexpensive and poorly maintained extractors are useless) The technique is to oversolder the joint, suck it dry while wiggling the pin with the tool to preclude adhesion to the via's barrel - a visit to your local wireman (who has the tooling) I'm in Dorset UK; contact me off list if my SX-90 can help Regards Martin -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt Sent: 10 September 2011 10:07 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Desoldering (Again) (resending from a different account, apologies if this is a duplicate) I have a 16-pin IC to desolder and I am struggling. Since I last asked about desoldering I have got a lot better with a de-soldering pump and can now clear the hole in the sense that I see a black hole rather than solder, and I can see daylight through all the holes (but for most of the holes this is only if I angle the board the right way). However, in this case the solder seems to be going all the way through and slightly onto the component side surface where I can't get at it with the pump. I have jiggled the pins to try to break any last bits of solder, but the chip is still very solidly attached. Any advice? Thanks Rob From tshoppa at wmata.com Sat Sep 10 07:31:43 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 08:31:43 -0400 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... Message-ID: For my first 4 years with E-mail I was only on DECNET/HEPNET. So DECNET style E-mail addresses for me (TDS222 at IOWA and TSHOPPA at FNALF). Later on, some of my BITNET E-mail addresses from the 80's and early 90's are found when I google myself. Some of these were on the same VAXes via BITNET gateways, others were on PRIMOS machines on BITNET, a couple were genuinely on IBM hardware and then later Amdahl hardware. I really struggled with the IBM user interfaces :-). I did use UUCP forwarding on several occasions but I never thought of the bang-path as "my E-mail address". Amazingly enough several of the LISTSERV's that I subscribed to/posted to back in the 80's still exist today in one form or another. Some were surprisingly hard to find but they're still there. From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Sep 10 08:29:29 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 08:29:29 -0500 Subject: gold scrapping In-Reply-To: <9F70FF91A6D94E63A7299BDDD1111A65@dell8300> References: <4E6A4E01.9030801@otter.se> <9F70FF91A6D94E63A7299BDDD1111A65@dell8300> Message-ID: <201109101334.p8ADYEdZ097082@billy.ezwind.net> At 03:21 AM 9/10/2011, TeoZ wrote: >So we have to deal with the same problems that people who collect ancient coins made of gold and silver deal with. If you want to collect them you need to pay more then melt value. I suspect most Pentium Pros with the gold top will be melted down, I have a stack of eight of them sitting here. I had two old Compaq Proliant 7000 with quad PPro and a gig or two or RAM. Yes, $90K machines in their day. I had essentially no money invested in them, they ran reliably for years, but I suspect even their V-8 PPro goodness could be exceeded by the processor in a $40 router these days. There was no market for the Proliant as-is. No market for the parts. Nothing being sold on eBay. So I completely disassembled and scrapped them. My state's environmental regulations still allow me to put scrap metal at the curb, so I'll recycle all the boards some other way. So why do I still have eight PPro sitting here? I shudder at the scams that some eBayer could play with me, shipping R at RE valuable gold CPUs to unknown destinations. I doubt the "we buy gold" jeweler down the street would know what to do with me. So where can I fence them? I bet I have a bag of goldish chips from a 70s-era Burroughs around here someplace, too. - John From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 10 08:47:13 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 06:47:13 -0700 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: References: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com>, Message-ID: Hi Fisrt thing is to get the pin relaxed in the hold. Most ICs were install with an automatic machine. This leaves them such that they are pushed against the sides. With solder still in the hole, and melted, push the pin with the iron towards the IC. The idea is to bend it just enough that it floats in the hole without touching the sides. It is hard to tell one what this feels like, but one can tell when the bend is right that the pin will move either way when given a gentle push( not enough to bend it ). Once this is done, with renewed flux, suck the solder out. When done there may be the tiniest amount of solder at the base of the lead, on the IC side, contacting the top of the hole and the lead. If this is tiny, take a short nosed, needle nose pliers and push the lead near the hole inwards toward the IC. Check each lead to ensure that it is loose. With a small screw driver, flip each end of the lead. It should feel loose in the hole. Once done to all the leads, the IC should come out. Dwight > Subject: RE: Desoldering (Again) > Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 13:08:06 +0100 > From: mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Rob > > I'm not surprised you are struggling : a non trivial evolution > > I'll presume that we are talking DIP, and that you can't cut the legs > off - as removal without damage to either PEC or device is required. If > the chip is "toast" then cut the legs close to the package (e.g. > Lindstrom 7191) and remove each leg / clean up each via individually > using the same methods but with better access and 14 easy rather than 1 > difficult problem. > > Things which may work include: > - solder (sucker) pump > - resoldering almost dry joints, to get them dry on the next attempt > - lots of flux : flux pen, liquid, gel, jelly (highly recommended) > - solderwick rather than a solder pump > > Things which will work: > - Pace SX-90 Sodr-X-tractor or similar hi-end tooling > (my experience is that inexpensive and poorly maintained extractors are > useless) The technique is to oversolder the joint, suck it dry while > wiggling the pin with the tool to preclude adhesion to the via's barrel > - a visit to your local wireman (who has the tooling) > > I'm in Dorset UK; contact me off list if my SX-90 can help > > Regards > > Martin > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 10 September 2011 10:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Desoldering (Again) > > (resending from a different account, apologies if this is a duplicate) > > I have a 16-pin IC to desolder and I am struggling. > > Since I last asked about desoldering I have got a lot better with a > de-soldering pump and can now clear the hole in the sense that I see a > black > hole rather than solder, and I can see daylight through all the holes > (but > for most of the holes this is only if I angle the board the right way). > However, in this case the solder seems to be going all the way through > and > slightly onto the component side surface where I can't get at it with > the > pump. I have jiggled the pins to try to break any last bits of solder, > but > the chip is still very solidly attached. > > Any advice? > > Thanks > > Rob > > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 09:03:31 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 15:03:31 +0100 Subject: gold scrapping In-Reply-To: <201109101334.p8ADYEdZ097082@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4E6A4E01.9030801@otter.se> <9F70FF91A6D94E63A7299BDDD1111A65@dell8300> <201109101334.p8ADYEdZ097082@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: There are legitimate companies recycling pcb and precious metals. I save all pcb material till I have a large enough load then they collect. Its nice when they pay ?6-9 a kilo for part of the load, paper pcb with no sign of sensible metals returns a about 12 pence per kilo other qualities at in between prices. prices are up and down at the moment my last load averaged ?3 a kilo Dave Caroline From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 10 10:29:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 08:29:45 -0700 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: References: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com>, Message-ID: <4E6B1FF9.18160.C7758@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2011 at 13:08, Martin Bishop wrote: > Things which will work: > - Pace SX-90 Sodr-X-tractor or similar hi-end tooling > (my experience is that inexpensive and poorly maintained extractors > are useless) The technique is to oversolder the joint, suck it dry > while wiggling the pin with the tool to preclude adhesion to the via's > barrel - a visit to your local wireman (who has the tooling) I'll add that a temperature-controlled iron is essential for any kind of repair work; inexpensive irons just generate too much heat and lead to damage of the PCB. Another thing to consider is using Chip-Quik (or any similar fusible alloy) to lower the temperature of the solder holding the IC in place. This greatly reduces the chance of damage to the PCB traces. When I'm working at repairing SMT PCBs, CQ is a standard weapon. --Chuck From bdwheele at indiana.edu Sat Sep 10 10:29:53 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 11:29:53 -0400 Subject: DECstation 5000/120 bad power supply... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1315668593.2826.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> I opened it up and looked around. Nothing looked out of the ordinary, except when I turned it on and let it sit for a second I saw some tiny sparks next to the solder pad of a diode and then another just half way down a run. Just as a WAG, I assume that a capacitor has leaked? The sparks were pretty near a 200v1200uF cap, but I don't see anything that looks like an oily goo. I was hoping for something obvious but it isn't looking that way. Brian On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 19:11 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > It looks like the power supply to my decstation 5000/120 is shot. The > > storage expansion, which is connected to the the switched C13 on the > > power supply, powered up as expected but nothing on the box itself. > > That power outlet is almost certainly just connected to the mains input > circuirty and doesn't sepend on the rest of the PSU working. > > Brefore you go any further, I think you could check that the PSU outputs > really are dead (all of the? Just some?) using a voltmeter. The hard part > of doinf this is that fidning out what the various ouptu wires actually are. > > If possible, replace the guts of the machine with a dummy load (6V and > 12V bulbs) just in case a short in the rest of the machine shutting > everything down. I doubt i,though. > > > > > There was a bit of a smell, but no magic smoke :) So how hard is it to > > repair a power supply for this? My soldering skills are mediocre at > > That depends on what is wrong with it... You're not going to get > schematics, so oyu are verymuch on your own. And remember there are > lethal voltags (like 350V DC with a high current availability) in there, > and that much of th circuitry is most likely driectly connected to the > mains > > How I'd attack this would be to open up the PSU and find/check the mains > input rectifier, maisn smoothing capacitors, chopper transistor(s) (If > that's failed, I then expect a lot of work), and the startup resistor. > But even fidning those cna be non-triivial if you've not worked on PSUs > before. > > -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 10 10:32:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 08:32:30 -0700 Subject: "Zilog 6502" in _IEEE Computer_ In-Reply-To: References: <4E63424F.13674.1C1610@cclist.sydex.com>, <010701cc6f46$71c15030$35fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, Message-ID: <4E6B209E.23736.EFDE4@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Sep 2011 at 19:36, William Donzelli wrote: > Of course, now someone is going to dig up a tube of Mostek 6502s. There are some folks in China who can give you any sort of label on any chip you'd care to name. The innards of the chip don't even have to correspond to the label. How about a PGA SN7404 with an Analog Devices label? :) --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 10 10:36:39 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 08:36:39 -0700 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com> References: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E6B8407.7070106@bitsavers.org> On 9/10/11 2:06 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have a 16-pin IC to desolder and I am struggling. > Any advice? > Cut the leads off flush at the body of the IC, touch the soldering iron to what is left, and lift the pin out. Use solder wick to clean out the hole. From mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com Sat Sep 10 11:04:53 2011 From: mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com (Martin Bishop) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:04:53 +0100 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6B1FF9.18160.C7758@cclist.sydex.com> References: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com>, <4E6B1FF9.18160.C7758@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In the UK one source of low melting point solders, to reduce the working temperature, is modelling stores, e.g. http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=56 and http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Engineering_Menu_Carrs_Solders___Flux es___etc_346.html for 243 224 188 145 .. degC MP. Martin -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: 10 September 2011 16:30 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Desoldering (Again) On 10 Sep 2011 at 13:08, Martin Bishop wrote: > Things which will work: > - Pace SX-90 Sodr-X-tractor or similar hi-end tooling > (my experience is that inexpensive and poorly maintained extractors > are useless) The technique is to oversolder the joint, suck it dry > while wiggling the pin with the tool to preclude adhesion to the via's > barrel - a visit to your local wireman (who has the tooling) I'll add that a temperature-controlled iron is essential for any kind of repair work; inexpensive irons just generate too much heat and lead to damage of the PCB. Another thing to consider is using Chip-Quik (or any similar fusible alloy) to lower the temperature of the solder holding the IC in place. This greatly reduces the chance of damage to the PCB traces. When I'm working at repairing SMT PCBs, CQ is a standard weapon. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Sep 10 11:06:09 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 09:06:09 -0700 Subject: DECstation 5000/120 bad power supply... In-Reply-To: <1315668593.2826.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> References: , <1315668593.2826.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> Message-ID: They don't have to leak visibly to go bad. That cap sounds like a good candidate to pull and check. ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian Wheeler [bdwheele at indiana.edu] Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 8:29 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DECstation 5000/120 bad power supply... I opened it up and looked around. Nothing looked out of the ordinary, except when I turned it on and let it sit for a second I saw some tiny sparks next to the solder pad of a diode and then another just half way down a run. Just as a WAG, I assume that a capacitor has leaked? The sparks were pretty near a 200v1200uF cap, but I don't see anything that looks like an oily goo. I was hoping for something obvious but it isn't looking that way. Brian On Fri, 2011-09-09 at 19:11 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > It looks like the power supply to my decstation 5000/120 is shot. The > > storage expansion, which is connected to the the switched C13 on the > > power supply, powered up as expected but nothing on the box itself. > > That power outlet is almost certainly just connected to the mains input > circuirty and doesn't sepend on the rest of the PSU working. > > Brefore you go any further, I think you could check that the PSU outputs > really are dead (all of the? Just some?) using a voltmeter. The hard part > of doinf this is that fidning out what the various ouptu wires actually are. > > If possible, replace the guts of the machine with a dummy load (6V and > 12V bulbs) just in case a short in the rest of the machine shutting > everything down. I doubt i,though. > > > > > There was a bit of a smell, but no magic smoke :) So how hard is it to > > repair a power supply for this? My soldering skills are mediocre at > > That depends on what is wrong with it... You're not going to get > schematics, so oyu are verymuch on your own. And remember there are > lethal voltags (like 350V DC with a high current availability) in there, > and that much of th circuitry is most likely driectly connected to the > mains > > How I'd attack this would be to open up the PSU and find/check the mains > input rectifier, maisn smoothing capacitors, chopper transistor(s) (If > that's failed, I then expect a lot of work), and the startup resistor. > But even fidning those cna be non-triivial if you've not worked on PSUs > before. > > -tony > From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sat Sep 10 11:46:38 2011 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:46:38 +0100 Subject: Clearing out '90s PC stuff (UK) Message-ID: <1315673198.3039.10.camel@entasis> I'm having a clear out, so before this goes to the recycling, does anyone want any of it? Free for collection! All in the UK (South Northants / North Oxon, nr Banbury OX17) or could get them to London in the next week, or York/Manchester next month. As far as I know everything worked, but it's been a long time since I used most things so no warranty. If you want to know anything more, just ask and I'll do my best. Serial I/O Advantech PCL841 Dual-port CAN card ISA16 Dual RS232 (DB25) ISA8 Dual RSRSR (DE9) ISA8 Analog-Digital Arcom PCAD12/17H ADC ISA8 (RS P/N 255610) NICs Intel PRO/100 NIC PCI Intel PRO/100S NIC PCI 3Com 3C900 NIC PCI 3Com 3C905 NIC PCI Sound Creative Soundblaster 128 PCI Soundblaster MIDI cable w/ Sequencer Plus software (5.25"+3.5") CPU ASUS P2B-S ATX Slot 1 motherboard w/ U2 SCSI + Slot 1 / Socket 370 adapter + Celeron 900MHz + fan + RAM Thermaltake fan for Socket 370 Celeron 366MHz Arctic Alpine64 fan for Socket 939 Video Matrox Millennium G200 8MB AGP Elephant EC-DS3-4 S3 Virge VGA PCI Newer gadgets BudgeTone-100 SIP phone iRiver H320 20GB player USB-to-IDE44 adapter incl power supply Software AutoCad R10 incl manuals, dongle & tablet overlay Autodesk Autosketch V1.02 (5.25") Drives IBM Ultrastar IC35L018UWPR15-0 U3SCSI 18GB 15krpm 2 x IBM DDRS-34560 U2SCSI 4.5GB 10krpm OS/2 OS/2 2.1 OS/2 Warp 3 OS/2 Warp 4 C/Set++ 2.1 KASE:Set Novaback -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 10 14:57:37 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 20:57:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 10, 11 10:06:37 am Message-ID: > > (resending from a different account, apologies if this is a duplicate) > > I have a 16-pin IC to desolder and I am struggling. > > Since I last asked about desoldering I have got a lot better with a > de-soldering pump and can now clear the hole in the sense that I see a black > hole rather than solder, and I can see daylight through all the holes (but > for most of the holes this is only if I angle the board the right way). > However, in this case the solder seems to be going all the way through and > slightly onto the component side surface where I can't get at it with the > pump. I have jiggled the pins to try to break any last bits of solder, but > the chip is still very solidly attached. First trick. Use a small flat-balse screwdriver on the component side of the PCB, right against the PCB to force each pin towards the body of the IC (pushing parallel to the PCB, or as near that as you can). This often breaks the last bond and lets the thing come out. > > Any advice? Do you care about the chip? If not, use a fine pair of cutters to clip the pins off and remove the body of the IC. Then grip the stub of each pin with pilers , melt the remaining solder and pull it out. Clean out the holes using a solder sucker on the component side while melting the solder iwth an iron on the track side. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 10 14:42:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 20:42:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: printers was: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E6A4E01.9030801@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Sep 9, 11 07:33:53 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 21:03:24 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony > Duell) wrote: > > That/'s why, incidentally, in a couple of days time I am demonstating > > a printer that's almost 40 years old, taking it apart to show the > > internals, nnd describing the intricacies of the control system (it's > > beautiful, and to think the ROM is only 32 bytes long...) > Please tell us which one :-) Sure, it;s the HP9866A As a bonuis, now that I've given the talk, I'll reveal all. Together with the HP docuemtnation and the scheamtics, this should explain how it works : HP9866 Control State Machine ---------------------------- ** Character Entry ** 00 : 20 if(Stb/) goto (00,02) , ClrFlg Start of main loop (also entry point on power on). Clear interface flag (not busy) Wait for strobe pulse on interface 02 : 2B goto (06) 06 : C2 if(PrtChar) goto (12,11) , InClk Load chracter into input register, set interface flag flip-flop (indicating printer busy). Test if it is a printable character (including linefeed). If not, ignore it. 12 : F4 if(LF/) goto (19,1B) Is it a linefeed? 1B : CF if(Empty/) goto (17,15) Input character is a linefeed. Is the line buffer empty? If so, just feed the paper, if not, do a full print cycle. 19 : C1 if(Start/) goto (14,11) It's not a linefeed. Is the line buffer full (that is character counter = 0 and empty/ flip-flop set). If so, ignore it (truncate the line) 14 : 9D goto (0D) , SClk Line buffer is not full, store new character in the shift register 0D : C4 goto (11) , PHOut Increment the character counter, set empty/ flip-flop, and end this character 11 : C0 if(Stb/) goto (10,11) End of character processing. Loop until strobe is inactive 10 : 00 goto (00) , ClrFlg Clear interface flag and round again. ** Print cycle ** Now to actually print a line. Begin by filling the unused space in the data shift register with spaces 17 : 89 if(Start/) goto (04,05) , ForceSpace Set the data input flip-flops to a space character. Exit from loop when the line buffer is full (effectively a while(buffer not full) loop). 04 : 10 goto (08) , SClk Load a space into the next buffer location 08 : EF goto (17) , PHClk Increment character counter and round again. The line buffer is now ready, so print it. 05 : E6 goto (13) , Autofeed Advance the paper one dot line 13 : E3 if(Timing) goto (16,13) Loop until U26b times out to give the motor time to move 16 : 3E if(Row7) goto (0B,0E) , InClk Is this the end of the printed character (7 rows of dots printed)? If so, goto the paper feed routine, starting by incrementing the row counter. 0B : 7B goto (1E) 1E : 84 goto (01) , RowClk Increment row counter. This also controls the RotEn line so as to go into printing mode 01 : 50 goto (18) 18 : BF goto (0F) , PHClk Clock the 5 bits for the current row of the current character into the printhead shift registers. 0F : DA if(char0/) goto (1A,1D) Is the line completed? This will skip the 4-chracter rotation at the end of the complete print line, so as to leave the line buffer in the same state at the start and end of a line. Thus each row of dots comes from the same chracters in the same positions. 1A : AF goto (07) 07 : 59 goto (1C) , ForceSpace No, start to roate the line buffer by 4 characters. Now ForceSpace/ had a second meaning. It increments the '4 character' counter U17a/b 1C : A7 if(LnFlg) goto (07,03) , SClk Rotate the line buffer and round again if it's not been done 4 times (print every 4th character on each pass) 03 : D8 if(newbank/) goto (18,1D) Has a complete bank been loaded? If not, go back and load the next character. 1D : 32 goto (0A) , PHOut A complete bank has been loaded, so trigger printhead timing monostable and print this bank of dots. 0A : 31 if(Timing) goto (0C,0A) Wait for U26a to time out (this bank has been printed). 0C : 8C if(firstbank/) goto (01,05) , SClk Rotate the line buffer by one character to get the next quarter of a line into postion. Has the character counter wrapped around so all banks have been done? If so, back round, advance the paper and start the next dot line. If not, then round again to start the next bank of data ** Paper feed ** This routine advances the paper by enough dot lines to complete the character and inter-row space 15 : 94 goto (09) , Autofeed Clock the stepper motor counter 09 : 93 if(Timing) goto (0E,09) Loop until monostable U26b times out (to give motor time to move) 0E : FF goto (1F) , RowClk Increment dot row counter 1F : C5 if(RotEn) goto (15,11) Round again if dot row counter has not got back to 0 (RotEn = 1). Otherwise go to end of character processing > > You know full well that financial value is not a reason for collecting > > something. > Unfortunately that is not the case for those transatlantic gentlemen who > spend their time on eBay buying "rare gold computer chips" for insane > amounts of money, driving up the prices for the rest of us :-( Yes, you're right, there are some people who appear to collect as an investment. Personally I think there arre safer things to invest your money in, and I think that classic computer hardware is much more interesting when it is put into operation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 10 15:10:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:10:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: DECstation 5000/120 bad power supply... In-Reply-To: <1315668593.2826.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> from "Brian Wheeler" at Sep 10, 11 11:29:53 am Message-ID: > > I opened it up and looked around. Nothing looked out of the ordinary, > except when I turned it on and let it sit for a second I saw some tiny > sparks next to the solder pad of a diode and then another just half way THat is never a good sign... I would look carfully in that area. Either something is breaking down (maybe due to capacitor leakage) or a conection has opened up (dry joint) and is sparking as a result. -tony From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 15:47:57 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 15:47:57 -0500 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 7:31 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I did use UUCP forwarding on several occasions > but I never thought of the bang-path > as "my E-mail address". This is a good point. I hadn't thought of it that way. My first Internet email address was at UIUC in 1991: jht(something)@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu. (I actually saw the uxa machine once...I believe it was a Sequent.) After my short time there ended I attended a local community college in 1992. They were still on a UUCP connection that dialed up via modem every 20 minutes. My address there was a hybrid, something like harper!timmoja at uunet.uu.net. It must have been a transition period. I'm not certain if it could have been addressed with pure bang paths or not. I am proud to have "been there" at the tail end of an era, though. Many hours were spent doing FTP by email in those college labs (full of Hazeltine terms and IBM PS/2s.) Send a command to a gateway, get your directory listing 20+ min later. Send a request...hope you spelled it all right...wait 20min. No wonder I never finished school :) -- jht From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 15:54:30 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 15:54:30 -0500 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Jason T wrote: > connection that dialed up via modem every 20 minutes. ?My address > there was a hybrid, something like harper!timmoja at uunet.uu.net. ?It Thanks to Google, I found an old post that showed the addresses. It took the form of the one above, but also the address "timmonja at harper.uucp", so there was some other kind of hybird address. One of my favorite O'Reilly book titles is the one that's hard to Google for: http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9781565920460.do Lots of interesting Internet history there. -- jht From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 10 16:01:47 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 14:01:47 -0700 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4E6B6DCB.23394.13C735A@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2011 at 15:47, Jason T wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 7:31 AM, Shoppa, Tim > wrote: > I did use UUCP forwarding on several occasions > but I never > thought of the bang-path > as "my E-mail address". I think I still have some UUCP email files kicking around, but for the life of me, I don't remember what I used as an email address. I'll have to look one of these days. --CHuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 10 16:49:45 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 22:49:45 +0100 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: References: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <032601cc7003$8facefb0$af06cf10$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Bishop [mailto:mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com] > Sent: 10 September 2011 13:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Rob Jarratt > Subject: RE: Desoldering (Again) > > Rob > > I'm not surprised you are struggling : a non trivial evolution > > I'll presume that we are talking DIP, and that you can't cut the legs off - as > removal without damage to either PEC or device is required. If the chip is > "toast" It actually is partially working, it allows the board partially to work, so I want to keep the chip in case my replacements don't work (I am going to solder in a socket). then cut the legs close to the package (e.g. > Lindstrom 7191) and remove each leg / clean up each via individually using > the same methods but with better access and 14 easy rather than 1 difficult > problem. > > Things which may work include: > - solder (sucker) pump > - resoldering almost dry joints, to get them dry on the next attempt > - lots of flux : flux pen, liquid, gel, jelly (highly recommended) > - solderwick rather than a solder pump > > Things which will work: > - Pace SX-90 Sodr-X-tractor or similar hi-end tooling (my experience is that > inexpensive and poorly maintained extractors are > useless) The technique is to oversolder the joint, suck it dry while wiggling > the pin with the tool to preclude adhesion to the via's barrel > - a visit to your local wireman (who has the tooling) > > I'm in Dorset UK; contact me off list if my SX-90 can help > Many thanks for the offer, but I am in Manchester, so just a little too far away! I'd post it, but I need the board quite soon and may just put it back the way it was until I have done what I need with it and then perhaps I could send it. I don't suppose there is anyone in the Manchester area who can help? Is there some way to find a "local wireman"? I don't know any. Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 10 16:59:12 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 22:59:12 +0100 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6B1FF9.18160.C7758@cclist.sydex.com> References: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com>, <4E6B1FF9.18160.C7758@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 10 September 2011 16:30 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Desoldering (Again) > > On 10 Sep 2011 at 13:08, Martin Bishop wrote: > > > Things which will work: > > - Pace SX-90 Sodr-X-tractor or similar hi-end tooling (my experience > > is that inexpensive and poorly maintained extractors are useless) The > > technique is to oversolder the joint, suck it dry while wiggling the > > pin with the tool to preclude adhesion to the via's barrel - a visit > > to your local wireman (who has the tooling) > > I'll add that a temperature-controlled iron is essential for any kind of repair > work; inexpensive irons just generate too much heat and lead to damage of > the PCB. > > Another thing to consider is using Chip-Quik (or any similar fusible > alloy) to lower the temperature of the solder holding the IC in place. This > greatly reduces the chance of damage to the PCB traces. > When I'm working at repairing SMT PCBs, CQ is a standard weapon. > > --Chuck What I am not clear on here is if the two suggestions go together (temperature control and chip-quik or similar). It sounds like you are suggesting either on their own would be good, but I assume the idea is to use low temperatures to avoid damage, and because of this you need to use low melting point solder to desolder. But surely you need higher temperature to melt the original solder first? Sorry, but I am still not experienced enough to understand this. All the same, it seems like I need a better iron in any case, I have failed to desolder another component on another board (Tony knows which one I mean), possibly in this case because the iron is not hot enough because there is a lot of solder around the component. For an occasional repair type of person like me who can't justify spending hundreds of pounds on this equipment, what is the cheapest iron I should be thinking of? Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 10 17:52:35 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 15:52:35 -0700 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com>, <4E6B1FF9.18160.C7758@cclist.sydex.com>, <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E6B87C3.31487.1A1E4D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2011 at 22:59, Rob Jarratt wrote: > What I am not clear on here is if the two suggestions go together > (temperature control and chip-quik or similar). It sounds like you are > suggesting either on their own would be good, but I assume the idea is > to use low temperatures to avoid damage, and because of this you need > to use low melting point solder to desolder. But surely you need > higher temperature to melt the original solder first? Sorry, but I am > still not experienced enough to understand this. Ah, okay--let me be clearer. You need a TC iron if you're going to be doing much repair work. The danger of lifting traces is exacerbated by a non-TC iron. With CQ, I remove SMT devices using the heat from a PAR38 lamp, You don't actually melt the original solder; it dissolves in the fusible alloy as the latter melts. You could probably use a soldering iron with an adjustable temperature control turned down (say, 300F). Cleanup is easy--I use an old toothbrush. There are many very decent irons around selling for a fraction of what my Weller WTCP cost me (on the other hand, it's put in more than 30 years of service and I can still get parts for it). Xytronic and Hakko (as well as Weller) are some brands that are worth considering. Others will have their own suggestions, but the important thing is temperature control. In some cases, this is done as an electronic closed-loop controller; in the case of my Weller, each tip is stamped with a number indicating its temperature. A magnet in the handle closes the heater contacts by being attracted to the alloy slug at the base of the tip. When the alloy reaches its Curie temperature, the magnet is no longer attracted to the tip and the circuit opens. Very old school and very reliable. What others haven't mentioned is that in multilayer boards with power and ground planes, it can be difficult to get enough heat to a joint to melt solder, as the heat is conducted away from the iron tip as fast as it's supplied. CQ comes in handy there, by lowering the melt temperature of the joint. For whatever it's worth, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Sep 10 19:16:32 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Timeworks Desktop Publisher and Textcraft Message-ID: I have Timeworks Desktop Publisher for Atari ST (docs and disks) and Amiga Textcraft (docs only) that I need to get rid of. Free for shipping from 93306. Weighs 5 pounds. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Sep 10 19:50:11 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 01:50:11 +0100 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E6C05C3.5060103@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/09/2011 21:54, Jason T wrote: > On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Jason T wrote: >> connection that dialed up via modem every 20 minutes. My address >> there was a hybrid, something like harper!timmoja at uunet.uu.net. It My first email address was in 1982 on Telecom Gold, which was British Telecom's version of ITT Dialcom, an X.400 service. I can't remember the original address, which is a pity because I remember it was a really low number, but a few years later it got changed to MAG1001. I didn't get an Internet address until ten years later, and until then I used Telecom Gold and gateways, usually via Packet SwitchStream (X.25 dialup). > One of my favorite O'Reilly book titles is the one that's hard to Google for: > http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9781565920460.do I still have my copy of that :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 20:22:51 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:22:51 -0400 Subject: "Zilog 6502" in _IEEE Computer_ In-Reply-To: <4E6B209E.23736.EFDE4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E63424F.13674.1C1610@cclist.sydex.com> <010701cc6f46$71c15030$35fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E6B209E.23736.EFDE4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > There are some folks in China who can give you any sort of label on > any chip you'd care to name. ?The innards of the chip don't even have > to correspond to the label. ?How about a PGA SN7404 with an Analog > Devices label? ?:) Yes, this is a real problem in the audio tube market. -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Sep 10 20:27:31 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Zilog 6502" in _IEEE Computer_ In-Reply-To: References: <4E63424F.13674.1C1610@cclist.sydex.com> <010701cc6f46$71c15030$35fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E6B209E.23736.EFDE4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Sep 2011, William Donzelli wrote: >> There are some folks in China who can give you any sort of label on >> any chip you'd care to name. ?The innards of the chip don't even have >> to correspond to the label. ?How about a PGA SN7404 with an Analog >> Devices label? ?:) > > Yes, this is a real problem in the audio tube market. As it is with synthesizer chips. Last year there was a particularly sloppy batch of fake SIDs on Ebay. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 10 20:29:29 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:29:29 -0700 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6B87C3.31487.1A1E4D5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com>, , <4E6B1FF9.18160.C7758@cclist.sydex.com>, , <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com>, <4E6B87C3.31487.1A1E4D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com ---snip--- > > Ah, okay--let me be clearer. > > You need a TC iron if you're going to be doing much repair work. The > danger of lifting traces is exacerbated by a non-TC iron. > ---snip--- Hi Chuck is absolutely right, you needs a temperature controlled tip. The type Chuck and I have show up quite often in surplus shops. I've even hacked one together in my earlier days being quite cheap at the time. I found that you could buy handles with broken connectors cheap ( like $3us each ). Another $14 and I had a 24V transformer and scounged up a power cord. Dwight From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 20:35:13 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 21:35:13 -0400 Subject: "Zilog 6502" in _IEEE Computer_ In-Reply-To: <4E6B209E.23736.EFDE4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E63424F.13674.1C1610@cclist.sydex.com>, <010701cc6f46$71c15030$35fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4E6B209E.23736.EFDE4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E6C1051.1090801@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Of course, now someone is going to dig up a tube of Mostek 6502s. > > There are some folks in China who can give you any sort of label on > any chip you'd care to name. The innards of the chip don't even have > to correspond to the label. How about a PGA SN7404 with an Analog > Devices label? :) I want a giant power transformer labeled with Burr-Brown. And with a 2011 manufacture date. That would be awesome. Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Sep 10 20:40:12 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:40:12 -0700 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: <4E6C05C3.5060103@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4E6C05C3.5060103@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <9b653858b049d9979fe87c5a4ac443d1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Sep 10, at 5:50 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 10/09/2011 21:54, Jason T wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Jason T wrote: >>> connection that dialed up via modem every 20 minutes. My address >>> there was a hybrid, something like harper!timmoja at uunet.uu.net. It > > My first email address was in 1982 on Telecom Gold, which was British > Telecom's version of ITT Dialcom, an X.400 service. I can't remember > the original address, which is a pity because I remember it was a > really low number, but a few years later it got changed to MAG1001. I > didn't get an Internet address until ten years later, and until then I > used Telecom Gold and gateways, usually via Packet SwitchStream (X.25 > dialup). That wouldn't have been an X.400 service in 1982 - too early - perhaps they switched to X.400 or developed an X.400 gateway to an existing system/network some years later. I worked on what was recognised quite widely as one of the first two X.400 systems. The other project was at KDD in Japan. Both projects began in 1982, unknown to each other. In 1984 we both became aware of the other and in early 1985 we interconnected the two, the first interconnection of two independantly-developed X.400 systems. (Sheesh. Kind of sounds like the plot to "Colossus: The Forbin Project".) It was a good number of years later before any of the PTTs were in any position to offer an X.400 service. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Sep 11 00:28:02 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 22:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Choosing a USB RS232 converter Message-ID: Lately I've been wanting to do RS232 stuff with my laptop instead of desktop machine. Would someone please recommend a good USB-to-RS232 converter? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dbwood at kc.rr.com Sun Sep 11 00:58:53 2011 From: dbwood at kc.rr.com (dbwood at kc.rr.com) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 5:58:53 +0000 Subject: Choosing a USB RS232 converter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110911055854.Z5KFM.279722.root@hrndva-web20-z02> ---- David Griffith wrote: > > Lately I've been wanting to do RS232 stuff with my laptop instead of > desktop machine. Would someone please recommend a good USB-to-RS232 > converter? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? A few years ago I needed to monitor multiple devices communicating over RS232. I bought EdgePort devices from Digi International. Worked like a charm. Kind of expensive, but I found several 8-port units on eBay for reasonable prices. They make several multiple port models, up to 16-port units (IIRC). Douglas Wood From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sun Sep 11 01:13:21 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 22:13:21 -0800 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: In the early 1990's, I was working for a division of Schlumberger. In 1994, I moved to San Jose, and set up shop in the Schlumberger ATE division building. The sysadmin and I got along well, and he was nice enough to give me the following e-mail addy: banzai at San-Jose.ate.slb.com A couple of years later, I received a stern e-mail from the person in charge of corporate e-mail, admonishing me for having a "non-standard" e-mail address. I was forced to change it to: jlkaneko at San-Jose.ate.slb.com This was the first time I ever got nit-picked by an IT person; and it damn sure wasn't the last. I could go on about my opinions re: corporate IT personnel, but that would be quite pointless. Back then, Schlumberger had a globally linked network of Vaxen for e-mail and stuff. Quite cool, actually. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk > Sent: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 23:22:32 +0100 > To: > Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... > > I was just trawling through some of my file archives and found my old > email address when at University: > > mwickens at vax2.luton.ac.uk - from 1993 to 1996 > > At the time I wasn't really into VAXen, but subsequently have wondered > about the VAX that handled my emails during that time. In the last year > a new Alpha system came online, and new email accounts were set up on > that box. > > Anyone had interested email addresses in the past, or an email address > which represented a nostalgic time in their life. > > The fluidity of email addresses interests me academically and > professionally - I work on systems which traditionally have involved > postal communication, but are moving over to email based communication. > This represents a challenge due to the fluidity of email addresses over > the course of the years. > > Regards, Mark. ____________________________________________________________ Send any screenshot to your friends in seconds... Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if2 for FREE From pinball at telus.net Sat Sep 10 15:57:25 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 13:57:25 -0700 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E6BCF35.3030605@telus.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> (resending from a different account, apologies if this is a duplicate) >> >> I have a 16-pin IC to desolder and I am struggling. >> >> Since I last asked about desoldering I have got a lot better with a >> de-soldering pump and can now clear the hole in the sense that I see a black >> hole rather than solder, and I can see daylight through all the holes (but >> for most of the holes this is only if I angle the board the right way). >> However, in this case the solder seems to be going all the way through and >> slightly onto the component side surface where I can't get at it with the >> pump. I have jiggled the pins to try to break any last bits of solder, but >> the chip is still very solidly attached. >> > > First trick. Use a small flat-balse screwdriver on the component side of > the PCB, right against the PCB to force each pin towards the body of the > IC (pushing parallel to the PCB, or as near that as you can). This often > breaks the last bond and lets the thing come out. > > I find if you first use the tiny flat screwdriver blade on the solder side of the board - pushing the leg portion that pokes out in towards the centre of the IC position, then push the same leg outwards this frees it up , if not then using the tiny flat blade against the leg where it enters the solder feed-through hole is the next step as Tony says. You will often here a click/pop/snap noise as the leg releases from the tube. Lastly I take a pair of expanding jaw pliers (for chips up to around 28 pins) grabbing the ends of the IC and rotating it gently on the same plane as the PCB. This helps free any remaining legs. I then put the pliers down and lift the IC with my fingers. If you can't lift the IC with your fingers you have not release all the legs, don't try prying - this only leads to tears and swearing... I use a Soldapullt (Blue, or the Silver Anti-static), have tried many processes and this tool is my most used for small board repairs (40 to 80 pins or less). http://www.hmcelectronics.com/product/Edsyn/DS017 John :-#)# >> Any advice? >> > > Do you care about the chip? > > If not, use a fine pair of cutters to clip the pins off and remove the > body of the IC. Then grip the stub of each pin with pilers , melt the > remaining solder and pull it out. Clean out the holes using a solder > sucker on the component side while melting the solder iwth an iron on the > track side. > > -tony > > -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 11 02:04:48 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 08:04:48 +0100 Subject: Choosing a USB RS232 converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <034f01cc7051$197483f0$4c5d8bd0$@ntlworld.com> I have been using devices like this one quite happily: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-2-0-9-Pin-Serial-RS-232-RS232-Adaptor-Converte r-/130477800614?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item1e61153ca6 At that price you can't really go wrong. I notice that there are some around with a wire between the RS-232 connector and the USB plug, that might be a good idea because on occasion I have unintentionally pulled the cable and bent the device. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith > Sent: 11 September 2011 06:28 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Choosing a USB RS232 converter > > > Lately I've been wanting to do RS232 stuff with my laptop instead of desktop > machine. Would someone please recommend a good USB-to-RS232 > converter? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spedraja at ono.com Sun Sep 11 02:06:53 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 09:06:53 +0200 Subject: Not usual Kaypro Message-ID: Pretty, pretty... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Insanely-Rare-SYNERGY-II-SYNTH-w-Kaypro-Computer-Software-/300598032572?pt=Keyboards_MIDI&hash=item45fd09f8bc Sergio From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Sep 11 02:27:31 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Choosing a USB RS232 converter In-Reply-To: <034f01cc7051$197483f0$4c5d8bd0$@ntlworld.com> References: <034f01cc7051$197483f0$4c5d8bd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Sep 2011, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have been using devices like this one quite happily: > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-2-0-9-Pin-Serial-RS-232-RS232-Adaptor-Converte > r-/130477800614?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item1e61153ca6 > > At that price you can't really go wrong. I notice that there are some around > with a wire between the RS-232 connector and the USB plug, that might be a > good idea because on occasion I have unintentionally pulled the cable and > bent the device. Something that concerns me is if the device properly supports hardware flow control. Some don't, and a no-name device doesn't give me much to go on. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 11 02:44:31 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:44:31 -0700 Subject: Not usual Kaypro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very much so. Zane At 9:06 AM +0200 9/11/11, SPC wrote: >Pretty, pretty... > >http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Insanely-Rare-SYNERGY-II-SYNTH-w-Kaypro-Computer-Software-/300598032572?pt=Keyboards_MIDI&hash=item45fd09f8bc > >Sergio -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 11 03:01:57 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 09:01:57 +0100 Subject: Choosing a USB RS232 converter In-Reply-To: References: <034f01cc7051$197483f0$4c5d8bd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <035301cc7059$15ae3380$410a9a80$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith > Sent: 11 September 2011 08:28 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Choosing a USB RS232 converter > > On Sun, 11 Sep 2011, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > I have been using devices like this one quite happily: > > > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-2-0-9-Pin-Serial-RS-232-RS232-Adaptor- > Co > > nverte > > r- > /130477800614?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item1e611 > 53ca > > 6 > > > > At that price you can't really go wrong. I notice that there are some > > around with a wire between the RS-232 connector and the USB plug, that > > might be a good idea because on occasion I have unintentionally pulled > > the cable and bent the device. > > Something that concerns me is if the device properly supports hardware > flow control. Some don't, and a no-name device doesn't give me much to go > on. > Sorry, but I don't know, it suffices for my purposes which is just to connect my PC to the console ports of my VAXen. Regards Rob From mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com Sun Sep 11 03:37:10 2011 From: mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com (Martin Bishop) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 09:37:10 +0100 Subject: Choosing a USB RS232 converter In-Reply-To: References: <034f01cc7051$197483f0$4c5d8bd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: David FTDI's USB/232 offering, e.g. US232R-10 - is a "demo cable" : which lives in my laptop bag, supports hardware control lines and is well documented http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/Cables/USBRS232.htm Additionally, the FT232 and FT245 devices implement JTAG over USB and byte wide FIFOs, using certified drivers, and are available on modules by FTDI and DLP http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/Modules/USBRSxxx.htm Regards Martin -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith Sent: 11 September 2011 08:28 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Choosing a USB RS232 converter On Sun, 11 Sep 2011, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have been using devices like this one quite happily: > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-2-0-9-Pin-Serial-RS-232-RS232-Adaptor-Conv erte > r-/130477800614?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item1e61153ca6 > > At that price you can't really go wrong. I notice that there are some around > with a wire between the RS-232 connector and the USB plug, that might be a > good idea because on occasion I have unintentionally pulled the cable and > bent the device. Something that concerns me is if the device properly supports hardware flow control. Some don't, and a no-name device doesn't give me much to go on. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com Sun Sep 11 03:53:41 2011 From: mjd.bishop at emeritus-solutions.com (Martin Bishop) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 09:53:41 +0100 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6B87C3.31487.1A1E4D5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com>, <4E6B1FF9.18160.C7758@cclist.sydex.com>, <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com> <4E6B87C3.31487.1A1E4D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Not only do you require a temperature controlled iron, the bit also needs to be the correct size - which varies with the task creating the additional requirement to either have multiple handpieces or easily exchangeable bits. That said a one size fits all iron for 0.1" DIP work would probably have an ~2 mm bit; not the hapiest compromise : a bit too big for soldering and a bit too small for de-soldering. http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Equipment/Antex-TCS-50W-Temperature-Con trolled-Iron-85-0550 cheapest UK TC iron ? http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Equipment/Antex-660TC-Soldering-Iron-St ation-85-4750 cheap but OK UK station multiple bits : 1 / 2/ 3 mm (ish) bits are required for soldering DILs, soldering chunky connectors, and warming through solder braid - with Antex this requires separate handpieces or some "brutal" tip changes. http://www.pcb-soldering.co.uk/aoyue-6031-sirocco-fan-type-pcb-work-stat ion-.html cheap and good hot air station which supports Aoyue LF quick change bits in the handpiece : ~8 mm dia nozzle is good for freehand SMD (re)work. An underheater chases the groundplanes away http://www.pcb-soldering.co.uk/aoyue-853a-quartz-infrared-heater.html http://www.pcb-soldering.co.uk/aoyue-2900-soldering-station.html hot stick only option for LF cartridges Useful Aoyue tips : LF-16D - 0.1" and 0.05" hand soldering LF-2BC - 0.1" soldering and light desoldering LF-3BC - heavy desoldering, incl lifting 0603 & 0805 Best entry point : Antex station requires multiple handpieces for rapid bit exchange, Aoyue supports hot bit exchange, ... (no simple answer) Regards Martin -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: 10 September 2011 23:53 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Desoldering (Again) On 10 Sep 2011 at 22:59, Rob Jarratt wrote: > What I am not clear on here is if the two suggestions go together > (temperature control and chip-quik or similar). It sounds like you are > suggesting either on their own would be good, but I assume the idea is > to use low temperatures to avoid damage, and because of this you need > to use low melting point solder to desolder. But surely you need > higher temperature to melt the original solder first? Sorry, but I am > still not experienced enough to understand this. Ah, okay--let me be clearer. You need a TC iron if you're going to be doing much repair work. The danger of lifting traces is exacerbated by a non-TC iron. With CQ, I remove SMT devices using the heat from a PAR38 lamp, You don't actually melt the original solder; it dissolves in the fusible alloy as the latter melts. You could probably use a soldering iron with an adjustable temperature control turned down (say, 300F). Cleanup is easy--I use an old toothbrush. There are many very decent irons around selling for a fraction of what my Weller WTCP cost me (on the other hand, it's put in more than 30 years of service and I can still get parts for it). Xytronic and Hakko (as well as Weller) are some brands that are worth considering. Others will have their own suggestions, but the important thing is temperature control. In some cases, this is done as an electronic closed-loop controller; in the case of my Weller, each tip is stamped with a number indicating its temperature. A magnet in the handle closes the heater contacts by being attracted to the alloy slug at the base of the tip. When the alloy reaches its Curie temperature, the magnet is no longer attracted to the tip and the circuit opens. Very old school and very reliable. What others haven't mentioned is that in multilayer boards with power and ground planes, it can be difficult to get enough heat to a joint to melt solder, as the heat is conducted away from the iron tip as fast as it's supplied. CQ comes in handy there, by lowering the melt temperature of the joint. For whatever it's worth, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 04:03:45 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 10:03:45 +0100 Subject: Clearing out '90s PC stuff (UK) In-Reply-To: <1315673198.3039.10.camel@entasis> References: <1315673198.3039.10.camel@entasis> Message-ID: On 10 September 2011 17:46, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > I'm having a clear out, so before this goes to the recycling, does > anyone want any of it? ?Free for collection! I will save some of it from the bin if there is no alternative, but have you tried Freecycle? I suspect some of this stuff would go quite easily, and SCSI bits might be worth money on eBay. > iRiver H320 20GB player > USB-to-IDE44 adapter incl power supply Yes, please! > Drives > IBM Ultrastar IC35L018UWPR15-0 U3SCSI 18GB 15krpm Possibly... > OS/2 > OS/2 2.1 > OS/2 Warp 3 > OS/2 Warp 4 Yes, please! I can come and find you in various bits of London, if that's any use? -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Sep 11 04:40:56 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 10:40:56 +0100 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: <9b653858b049d9979fe87c5a4ac443d1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4E6C05C3.5060103@dunnington.plus.com> <9b653858b049d9979fe87c5a4ac443d1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4E6C8228.8010505@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/09/2011 02:40, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2011 Sep 10, at 5:50 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> My first email address was in 1982 on Telecom Gold, which was British >> Telecom's version of ITT Dialcom, an X.400 service. I can't remember >> the original address, which is a pity because I remember it was a >> really low number, but a few years later it got changed to MAG1001. I >> didn't get an Internet address until ten years later, and until then I >> used Telecom Gold and gateways, usually via Packet SwitchStream (X.25 >> dialup). > > That wouldn't have been an X.400 service in 1982 Not on day one of course, but it became X.400 sometime in mid 80s. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 11 06:36:27 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 12:36:27 +0100 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: References: <031401cc6f98$f3ec8d20$dbc5a760$@ntlworld.com>, <4E6B1FF9.18160.C7758@cclist.sydex.com>, <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com> <4E6B87C3.31487.1A1E4D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <035901cc7077$0ce19030$26a4b090$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Martin Bishop > Sent: 11 September 2011 09:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Desoldering (Again) > > Not only do you require a temperature controlled iron, the bit also needs to > be the correct size - which varies with the task creating the additional > requirement to either have multiple handpieces or easily exchangeable bits. > > That said a one size fits all iron for 0.1" DIP work would probably have an ~2 > mm bit; not the hapiest compromise : a bit too big for soldering and a bit > too small for de-soldering. > > http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Equipment/Antex-TCS-50W- > Temperature-Con > trolled-Iron-85-0550 cheapest UK TC iron ? > > http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Equipment/Antex-660TC-Soldering-Iron- > St > ation-85-4750 cheap but OK UK station > Thanks for the advice from everyone. I notice that the Antex TCS 50W has a minimum temperature of 200 celsius (according to the Maplin site), while the Antex 660TC station has a minimum of 65 celsius. Given the discussion about low temperatures, is 200 celsius too high a minimum? Regards Rob From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Sep 11 09:50:56 2011 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 08:50:56 -0600 Subject: Choosing a USB RS232 converter In-Reply-To: References: <034f01cc7051$197483f0$4c5d8bd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E6CCAD0.9080909@e-bbes.com> On 2011-09-11 02:37, Martin Bishop wrote: > Additionally, the FT232 and FT245 devices implement JTAG over USB and > byte wide FIFOs, using certified drivers, and are available on modules > by FTDI and DLP http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/Modules/USBRSxxx.htm If you're into hardware devel/debug, check out ftdi and openocd in google. There are converters out there, which have one channel rs232, and a pin header for bit-banging hardware. That's what I use, since my laptop doesn't have any real RS232 anymore. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Sep 11 11:00:41 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 09:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Choosing a USB RS232 converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Sep 2011, David Griffith wrote: > > Lately I've been wanting to do RS232 stuff with my laptop instead of desktop > machine. Would someone please recommend a good USB-to-RS232 converter? Just about anything based on the FTDI232R chip will be a good choice. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun Sep 11 11:24:13 2011 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 12:24:13 -0400 Subject: Choosing a USB RS232 converter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I actually use a converter from Parallax based on the FTDI chip for all of my vintage stuff. It's a PCB attached to a DE9M and a USB cable that's detachable. Right now, it says out of stock ($14.99). http://www.parallax.com/StoreSearchResults/tabid/768/txtSearch/28030/List/0/ SortField/4/ProductID/378/Default.aspx Rich On 9/11/11 12:00 PM, "Gene Buckle" wrote: > On Sat, 10 Sep 2011, David Griffith wrote: > >> >> Lately I've been wanting to do RS232 stuff with my laptop instead of desktop >> machine. Would someone please recommend a good USB-to-RS232 converter? > > Just about anything based on the FTDI232R chip will be a good choice. > > g. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 11 11:45:27 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 09:45:27 -0700 Subject: Choosing a USB RS232 converter In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4E6C8337.23662.20B1CF@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2011 at 12:24, Richard Cini wrote: > I actually use a converter from Parallax based on the FTDI chip for > all of my vintage stuff. It's a PCB attached to a DE9M and a USB cable > that's detachable. Right now, it says out of stock ($14.99). By and large, I find that the cheap Serial-to-USB converters work just fine, but don't do the higher speeds (e.g. 250K bps), but top out at 150Kbps. I think I paid about $3 apiece online. Of course there are no drivers for MS-DOS, so it's not quite the same as a real serial port. How about USB-to-Parallel for non-printing uses? I know what the protocol is for several of my parallel-port-interface devices, but trying to get it through an adapter is a whole new experience. About the only flexible design that I've seen that gives the ability to manipulate individual pins is the DIY V-USB design using an AVR. Are there any others? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 11 12:05:08 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 10:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6BCF35.3030605@telus.net> References: <4E6BCF35.3030605@telus.net> Message-ID: <20110911085620.T95689@shell.lmi.net> Top of the line units are a waste of money until you have a mastery of the basics. Then they are a joy to use. A soldering iron that is not good enough will be extremely frustrating, and not worthwhile. A skilled and experienced tech should be able to desolder using a hot rock, a non-eletric soldering iron that is heated in a HOT fire, or a 1950s soldering pistol. But LEARNING with those handicaps is a bad idea. By analogy, automatic transmission, automatic choke, power steering, automatic spark advance, kettering style starter motor, etc. may not be necessary for the true expert, but they are important to reduce the number of variables WHILE learning. AFTER a basic mastery of technique, THEN one can begin adding in the impediments and challenges. Do NOT get started on the whole basic idiocy of "paying one's dues" ("If it was good enough for . . . ") and/or "if you learn with the challenges, then you will be better later". An incredibly cheap Weller TCPN from a swapmeet (look for big piles of the sickly green ones), is a good LEARNING tool. Use it until you can feel the difference, THEN replace it with a better one. Master beginning soldering BEFORE attempting desoldering. My soldering was HORRIBLE until I bought BARE XT motherboards, disk controllers and video boards, and soldered turn-pin sockets everywhere on them. Later, I learned that it was considered "stupid" to socket a resistor pack or dipswitches. (FLAW in my theory: My soldering is no longer UGLY, but it's still not very good.) Don't START with surface mount, nor even ICs! Do I even need to SAY, "desolder 14 pin chips before attempting a 40 pin"? Take a junk board, such as one from Chuck's laser printer, not one of Tony's, and start desoldering resistors. When you have stripped the board completely, solder them all back into place, and do it again. NOW, take a working but NOT RARE board, such as a printer port, strip it completely, reassemble it, and GET IT WORKING. You will learn a lot about bad solder joints, solder bridges, and lifted traces, and just how much force is right for wiggling pins to break them loose when almost all of the solder is off. Practice straightening bent pins and soldering broken ones back on. If you get Chuck's help, you can probably also learn to solder/desolder Tubas! Not relevant, but lots of fun. My sister wants me to find an almost irreparable French Horn to remove the valve housing and make a "hunting horn" - I'm not sure WHY, she has the LAST Lawson, that he came out of retirement to make for her. Try out LOTS of different solder suckers. For a beginner, a big blue spring loaded "Pullit?" may be substantially easier to get started with, even though once one has skill, a gentle pump is more controllable and easier to use FOR AN EXPERT. Play with solder wick. Many/most? experts may have no use for it, but it is GREAT for helping a beginner get the feel of removing solder. Use round wooden toothpicks, solder wick, and whatever else might work for YOU, and clean those holes COMPLETELY. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 11 11:49:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:49:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6BCF35.3030605@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at Sep 10, 11 01:57:25 pm Message-ID: > > First trick. Use a small flat-balse screwdriver on the component side of > > the PCB, right against the PCB to force each pin towards the body of the > > IC (pushing parallel to the PCB, or as near that as you can). This often > > breaks the last bond and lets the thing come out. > > > > > I find if you first use the tiny flat screwdriver blade on the solder > side of the board - pushing the leg portion that pokes out in towards > the centre of the IC position, then push the same leg outwards this > frees it up , if not then using the tiny flat blade against the leg > where it enters the solder feed-through hole is the next step as Tony > says. I normally find the solder side is free anyway after I've used the solder sucker, but it can't hurt ro wobble the pin around to break any bond there. > > You will often here a click/pop/snap noise as the leg releases from the > tube. Yes, and you'll feel the screwdriver 'give' a little. That's a sign you've got that pin free. > > Lastly I take a pair of expanding jaw pliers (for chips up to around 28 > pins) grabbing the ends of the IC and rotating it gently on the same > plane as the PCB. This helps free any remaining legs. Interesting tricke, I;ve never tried that. I will give it a go (on a scrap PCB first :-)) > > I then put the pliers down and lift the IC with my fingers. > > If you can't lift the IC with your fingers you have not release all the > legs, don't try prying - this only leads to tears and swearing... I find that uyou can prise (pry) the IC looks after breaking the bond between each pin and the CPB, but the trick is to know jsut how much force you can safely apply without damaging either the IC (it is possible to crack the DIL package and rip pins out) or the PCB. Prising can be very useful to sdee which part of a large DIL pakacge seems ot be free wnas whcih pios might still be holding it (and thus need resolderign and desoldering again). Just take great care! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 11 12:01:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:01:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 10, 11 10:59:12 pm Message-ID: > > > Things which will work: > > > - Pace SX-90 Sodr-X-tractor or similar hi-end tooling (my experience > > > is that inexpensive and poorly maintained extractors are useless) The > > > technique is to oversolder the joint, suck it dry while wiggling the > > > pin with the tool to preclude adhesion to the via's barrel - a visit > > > to your local wireman (who has the tooling) > > > > I'll add that a temperature-controlled iron is essential for any kind of > repair > > work; inexpensive irons just generate too much heat and lead to damage of > > the PCB. I will certainly agree with that. I use a Weller TCP, which is a pretty basic tmeperature-controller ion, but it works. A few times (one quite recently) I've tried to use a friend's cheap iron and given up (and grapped the Weller). I find it very difficult even to solder a single-siDed PCB with a cheap iron, let alone decolder a throuhg-hole-plated one. It is said that the bad workman blames his tools. I feel this is often becasue the good wookmand has good tools, uses them appropriately and looks after them. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean the most expensive tools. > > > > Another thing to consider is using Chip-Quik (or any similar fusible > > alloy) to lower the temperature of the solder holding the IC in place. > This > > greatly reduces the chance of damage to the PCB traces. > > When I'm working at repairing SMT PCBs, CQ is a standard weapon. > > > > --Chuck > > What I am not clear on here is if the two suggestions go together > (temperature control and chip-quik or similar). It sounds like you are > suggesting either on their own would be good, but I assume the idea is to > use low temperatures to avoid damage, and because of this you need to use > low melting point solder to desolder. But surely you need higher temperature > to melt the original solder first? Sorry, but I am still not experienced > enough to understand this. Not really/ ChipQiuick forms an allot with the existing solder with a much lower melthing point, but you still usr a normal soldering iron, at the normal tempeature to mult it (certainly when doing throuhg-hole parts). The idea is that the PCB/device will remain hot enough for this low melting point alloy to remain soft while you go over all the connections, and you can keep it molten with a fairly low-temperature hot air stream.. That way, you can have everything molten at once and just yank the device out. It's moslty used for large pin-count SMD devices. I've never used it, and I don't think it's necessart for DIL parts. > > All the same, it seems like I need a better iron in any case, I have failed I don;t know what you have at the momnet, but if it's not temperature-controlled you are making life difficult for yourself. > to desolder another component on another board (Tony knows which one I > mean), possibly in this case because the iron is not hot enough because > there is a lot of solder around the component. For an occasional repair type > of person like me who can't justify spending hundreds of pounds on this > equipment, what is the cheapest iron I should be thinking of? I'd get a Weller TCP. You'll need a 24V AC supply (at about 2A) to run it, the official Weller stand/PSU is nice but also expensive. The Weller is old technology -- it works by having a piece of special alloy on the back of the bit, the curie point of which is the desired tempearutre. Inside the shaft of the iron is a themostat witch which is closed when its magnet is attraced to that alloy/ Wehn the iron is up to tempeature, the magent stops being attracted, the thermostat swtich opens, the element is turend off, etc. Wimple, reliable, and I can understand how it works ;-). Theyt've been around for years, but parts are very easy to obtain. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 11 12:07:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:07:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Zilog 6502" in _IEEE Computer_ In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Sep 10, 11 09:22:51 pm Message-ID: > > > There are some folks in China who can give you any sort of label on > > any chip you'd care to name. =A0The innards of the chip don't even have > > to correspond to the label. =A0How about a PGA SN7404 with an Analog > > Devices label? =A0:) > > Yes, this is a real problem in the audio tube market. At least with a valve you can look through the glass and see if it could possibly ne the right device (a rectifier and an output valve look quite different :-)). Not so with semicodnctors. I am told there are fake power transitors that when you crack them open the silicon die is much smaller than that in the genuine one. They will not stand the fuil Ic they are supposed to. And for ICs, I've heard that you might get any silicon die in a package with the right number of pins (or maybe nothing at all). I've found companies on the web that claim they can supply all sorts of old HP custom parts. My guess is that if I ordered , say, the ROM for an HP41 (which happens to be in an 8 pin DIL package), I'd get a 555 timer or similar with the right numbers printed on it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 11 13:00:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 19:00:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <20110911085620.T95689@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 11, 11 10:05:08 am Message-ID: > > Top of the line units are a waste of money until you have a mastery of the > basics. Then they are a joy to use. > A soldering iron that is not good enough will be extremely frustrating, > and not worthwhile. A skilled and experienced tech should be able to > desolder using a hot rock, a non-eletric soldering iron that is heated in > a HOT fire, or a 1950s soldering pistol. I don't know how experienced you consider me to be, all I can say is that I've been soldering for over 30 eyars, and it now holds no fears. I don;t worry at all about desldering an IC, soldering up a large PCB, oding SMD rework (at least wit hthe larger components ;-)) It's just something i do. However : A friend of mine said that his duaghter wanted to try some electroncics. In my box of oddments, I had some simple solder-type elecrtronic kits (2-transistor flashing LEDs, etc) that I'd bought very cheaply when they were disocontinued (the prices were less than that of the components, I'd bought then to raid for parts). Anyway, the chap said he was willing to buy some tools, so I gave them some of those kits. I helped them wit hthe first one. What I quickly discovered was, that having been used ot a Weller TCP for so long, even soldering simple through-hole components on a single-sided PCB with a cheap iron was painful. I wasn't suprised they were having difficulties. I let said girl use my TCP for an afternoon, and she was soon making perfectly good connecitons. The bigger problem is convincing them to buy one. So if I have peoblems doing a god job with a cheap iron, I guess many people do too... > > But LEARNING with those handicaps is a bad idea. By analogy, automatic > transmission, automatic choke, power steering, automatic spark advance, I believe that in the UK, if you take the driving test in a car with an automatic transmission, you get a license to drive only cars with automatic transimisison, but if you take the test in a car with a manual gearbox, you can drive both manuals and automatics. But anyway > kettering style starter motor, etc. may not be necessary for the true > expert, but they are important to reduce the number of variables WHILE > learning. AFTER a basic mastery of technique, THEN one can begin adding in > the impediments and challenges. Do NOT get started on the whole basic > idiocy of "paying one's dues" ("If it was good enough for . . . ") and/or > "if you learn with the challenges, then you will be better later". I absolutlely agree. There are times when there are real difficulties, and it is good to learn to overcome them. But this doesn't mean you have to introduce aftificial difficulties. You may enjoy seeing just how much fault-tracing you can do with minimal test gear (and it is quite fun to be able to trace a logic fualt using a multiumeter and LED+resistor only), but only after you know what you are doing. You amy want to lrarn to use what'c called a 'soldering copper' in some of my older books, effective la copper bit on a handle that you heat in a gas flame, but IMHO only after you can use an electrically-heated soldering iron and use it well. > > An incredibly cheap Weller TCPN from a swapmeet (look for big piles of the > sickly green ones), is a good LEARNING tool. Use it until you can feel > the difference, THEN replace it with a better one. I am not sure you will need t replace a Weller TCP unless you do a lot of fine-pitch SMD work. > Master beginning soldering BEFORE attempting desoldering. > My soldering was HORRIBLE until I bought BARE XT motherboards, disk Unfortuiantely, the solder-together kits are few and far between now. And I doubt you can get bare XT motherboards anywhere... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 11 13:08:11 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 11:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110911110650.Y95689@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 10 Sep 2011, N0body H0me wrote: > banzai at San-Jose.ate.slb.com > A couple of years later, I received a stern e-mail from the person > in charge of corporate e-mail, admonishing me for having a "non-standard" > e-mail address. I was forced to change it to: > jlkaneko at San-Jose.ate.slb.com Couldn't you have gotten away with changing it to bbanzai? > This was the first time I ever got nit-picked by an IT person; and > it damn sure wasn't the last. I could go on about my opinions re: > corporate IT personnel, but that would be quite pointless. College administrators make them look good. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 11 13:10:06 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 11:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Choosing a USB RS232 converter In-Reply-To: <035301cc7059$15ae3380$410a9a80$@ntlworld.com> References: <034f01cc7051$197483f0$4c5d8bd0$@ntlworld.com> <035301cc7059$15ae3380$410a9a80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20110911110856.X95689@shell.lmi.net> > > Something that concerns me is if the device properly supports hardware > > flow control. Some don't, and a no-name device doesn't give me much to go > > on. > Sorry, but I don't know, it suffices for my purposes which is just to > connect my PC to the console ports of my VAXen. any that claim to work with RS232 printers? (LaserJet- and the like) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 11 13:34:39 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 11:34:39 -0700 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <20110911085620.T95689@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4E6BCF35.3030605@telus.net>, <20110911085620.T95689@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E6C9CCF.25132.84AEAC@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2011 at 10:05, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you get Chuck's help, you can probably also learn to > solder/desolder Tubas! Not relevant, but lots of fun. My sister > wants me to find an almost irreparable French Horn to remove the valve > housing and make a "hunting horn" - I'm not sure WHY, she has the LAST > Lawson, that he came out of retirement to make for her. (OT: I've done a couple of natural horns for friends--they're a real hoot--they play much differently than a valved horn--a more "open" feel, as you don't have all of those resonance-destroying valves to deal with. Intonation is a real struggle, but horn players seem to enjoy rising to the challenge. Great for Mozart, maybe not so much for Wagner.) Fred's statement about crappy tools is good. I know a fellow (patent attorney with Micron) who collects tubas--and I mean he really collects them. He's got a couple of William Bell's instruments (Bell played with Sousa's band). He reports that to him, they're nearly unplayable, but Bell could get great sounds from them. He opines that Bell could probably have gottent great music out of a dented garbage can. The skilled people know their tools and can work, if necessary, with really terrible tools and still do a creditable job. A really good tool allows an lesser-skilled person to do a decent job, whereas a terrible tool in the same hands would produce garbage. > Try out LOTS of different solder suckers. For a beginner, a big blue > spring loaded "Pullit?" may be substantially easier to get started > with, even though once one has skill, a gentle pump is more > controllable and easier to use FOR AN EXPERT. Druid over on Erik's vintage computer forum is recommending the combo iron-sucker setup such as ebay item 380167588806. It's probably okay for removing DIPs, but it looks like too blunt a tool to be useful. But Dru does a lot of repair, so maybe there's something to his claims. The big (not the smaller models, which are almost useless) of the Edsyn Soldapullt is a frequently-used tool in my toolkit. Keep it lubricated and clean--the difference in suction between clean and dirty is amazing. Before starting a piece of work, I clean mine out and then lube with a spritz of aerosol lithium grease. > Play with solder wick. Many/most? experts may have no use for it, but > it is GREAT for helping a beginner get the feel of removing solder. Solder wick is great for hand-soldering SMT packages, such as QFP-- it'll clean up solder "bridges" very nicely. But I find it pales in comparison to the sucker when removing solder from through-hole stuff. > Use round wooden toothpicks, solder wick, and whatever else might work > for YOU, and clean those holes COMPLETELY. And sometimes a hole won't clear because of a small piece of broken off lead, no matter what you do. Those holes are *carefully* cleared with a #70 wire drill in a low-speed Foredom handpiece (don't use a solid-carbide drill--you'll just end up breaking it off). You do what works. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Sep 11 13:58:22 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:58:22 -0400 Subject: Choosing a USB RS232 converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E6D04CE.1040904@verizon.net> On 9/11/2011 1:28 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > Lately I've been wanting to do RS232 stuff with my laptop instead of > desktop machine. Would someone please recommend a good USB-to-RS232 > converter? > David, As others have mentioned, the FTDI based devices are fantastic. I did some software+hardware development with a device based on their chips and I really like their stuff. Their datasheets, schematics, documentation for using their .DLLs, their Virtual Com Port (VCP, as they call them) drivers(certified, as someone mentioned) are all top notch. I also used their product in a linux environment too, and it just worked. They actually provide useful information in their application notes. I've had a few reasons to contact their tech support because I needed a little hand-holding using some advanced features. They responded fast, provided very useful information, and truly wanted to help. By all rights, they could have blown me off or just linked me to the downloads section. Instead, in addition to providing great help, even sent me some minor cheatsheet information that they use internally to make life easier. FTDI rocks. Keith From jws at jwsss.com Sun Sep 11 14:00:39 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 12:00:39 -0700 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6C9CCF.25132.84AEAC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E6BCF35.3030605@telus.net>, <20110911085620.T95689@shell.lmi.net> <4E6C9CCF.25132.84AEAC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E6D0557.5040309@jwsss.com> I've not seen any comment here about reaming out the thru hole plating on multiple layer boards. Sometimes this ream will do so, and you need the board schematic to tack back in jumpers for internal leads if they exist. That is assuming you don't take the pads off with a ream job. When I had a known problem, I'd do as suggested elsewhere and clip the IC out, if necessary at the board, but if the IC was expendible, at the IC. Then take a bit of high temp or tungsten drill rod in a pin vice and reheat the hole. Use the tungsten to push out the pin and leave in place till it cools with slight motion. you can the work the drill rod back out and leave a nice hold, and hopefully the thru hole plating. Key thing is to use a metal that won't have any chance of tinning when you put it thru the hole during the reheat. Jim On 9/11/2011 11:34 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Use round wooden toothpicks, solder wick, and whatever else might work >> > for YOU, and clean those holes COMPLETELY. > And sometimes a hole won't clear because of a small piece of broken > off lead, no matter what you do. Those holes are*carefully* cleared > with a #70 wire drill in a low-speed Foredom handpiece (don't use a > solid-carbide drill--you'll just end up breaking it off). From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Sep 11 14:38:17 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 15:38:17 -0400 Subject: Not usual Kaypro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E6D0E29.4020100@verizon.net> On 09/11/2011 03:44 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Very much so. > > Zane > > > > At 9:06 AM +0200 9/11/11, SPC wrote: >> Pretty, pretty... >> >> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Insanely-Rare-SYNERGY-II-SYNTH-w-Kaypro-Computer-Software-/300598032572?pt=Keyboards_MIDI&hash=item45fd09f8bc >> >> >> Sergio > > Read carefully, its mostly a crock. PDP-8 NEVER ran C. PDP11 was the first to run the then new C language. Also in 1975 the IEE696 was not a reality and the Altair bus was NOT IEEE696, it was incompatible despite being the base starting point. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 11 15:02:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 21:02:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6D0557.5040309@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Sep 11, 11 12:00:39 pm Message-ID: > Then take a bit of high temp or tungsten drill rod in a pin vice and > reheat the hole. Use the tungsten to push out the pin and leave in > place till it cools with slight motion. you can the work the drill rod > back out and leave a nice hold, and hopefully the thru hole plating. Incidnntally, the pins in some old dot-matrix printheads seem to be a tungsten alloy. They are quite brittle, and will not take solder.They are also quite long. If you have an old, dead, printhed, you might take it apart, extract the pins, and use those as a hole-clearing tool. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Sep 11 15:53:08 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 13:53:08 -0700 Subject: Choosing a USB RS232 converter In-Reply-To: <4E6D04CE.1040904@verizon.net> References: <4E6D04CE.1040904@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E6D1FB4.3000202@brouhaha.com> Keith Monahan wrote about FTDI USB-serial/parallel interface chips: > Their datasheets, schematics, documentation for using their .DLLs, their > Virtual Com Port (VCP, as they call them) drivers(certified, as someone > mentioned) are all top notch. I disagree with respect to the datasheets, which do not provide the information necessary to write a driver. There is no information on the details of the USB protocol they use, and apparently that information is only available under NDA, or by reverse-engineering their drivers. Perhaps if you're satisfied with the standard drivers that doesn't matter, but if you want to use the FTDI chip in an unusual environment, such as from an RTOS on non-PC hardware, you're SOL. It is a mystery to me why they do this; providing the technical information would not hurt them in any way. Eric From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 11 16:52:23 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:52:23 +0100 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: References: <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 10, 11 10:59:12 pm Message-ID: <036c01cc70cd$18612cd0$49238670$@ntlworld.com> > I don;t know what you have at the momnet, but if it's not temperature- > controlled you are making life difficult for yourself. > I have a Weller 40W iron, not temperature controlled. What I don't understand is why this makes life difficult, if it melts the solder what makes it hard to use? The only thing I can think of is damage to the board and/or components if the temperature is too high. Is there something else about a non-temperature controlled iron that makes things hard? Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 11 18:47:07 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 16:47:07 -0700 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <036c01cc70cd$18612cd0$49238670$@ntlworld.com> References: <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com>, , <036c01cc70cd$18612cd0$49238670$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E6CE60B.11421.1A2BF18@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2011 at 22:52, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have a Weller 40W iron, not temperature controlled. What I don't > understand is why this makes life difficult, if it melts the solder > what makes it hard to use? The only thing I can think of is damage to > the board and/or components if the temperature is too high. Is there > something else about a non-temperature controlled iron that makes > things hard? Could you cook with a gas cooker (kitchen range) whose knobs had only a full-on setting? I suppose so, but it wouldn't be much fun and would take a considerable amount of skill and a lot of ruined food in the learning process. On the other hand, a TC iron is sensitive to its surroundings, dumping more heat into a joint that requires it, but otherwise throttling down. Sometimes my TC Weller doesn't have the heat to handle soldered-on TO220 packages or sheet-metal shields. When that happens, I reach for my trusty old Ungar 40W iron and attempt to augment the heat of the Weller TCP. Somtimes it works. But even that may not be enough. What do you use when soldering cable shield braid to the shell of a D-sub connector? I use my trusty Weller D550 soldering gun. The right tool for the job. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Sun Sep 11 18:48:35 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 16:48:35 -0700 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <036c01cc70cd$18612cd0$49238670$@ntlworld.com> References: <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 10, 11 10:59:12 pm <036c01cc70cd$18612cd0$49238670$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E6D48D3.3050301@jwsss.com> They tend to run very hot in order to work at all. Temperature controlled units will not cool off as much when you put them to an object / board, and will heat up as needed to maintain the heat and temperature. Note that the main thing that happens first when you touch something is that the objects temp comes up an a lot of heat goes out of the tip of the iron you use. If it is non temperature controlled, it will be at a much higher temp than you probably need to do your work, thereby dumping a lot of heat into your work. With temperature controlled, when you touch the iron to the work, it will heat up only to the point you have set in the temp control, and transfer less heat that way. The heat energy necessary to just get your work flowing is all you want, and the less you transfer the better. Of course I'm assuming you don't have one of the old Wellers we used to use to do house electrical as well as plumbing soldering, and a fine point cheapo with no temperature control. One of the ones that operate like that would melt the board and the solder and the part. On 9/11/2011 2:52 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> I don;t know what you have at the momnet, but if it's not temperature- >> controlled you are making life difficult for yourself. >> > I have a Weller 40W iron, not temperature controlled. What I don't > understand is why this makes life difficult, if it melts the solder what > makes it hard to use? The only thing I can think of is damage to the board > and/or components if the temperature is too high. Is there something else > about a non-temperature controlled iron that makes things hard? > > Regards > > Rob > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 18:52:26 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 19:52:26 -0400 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6CE60B.11421.1A2BF18@cclist.sydex.com> References: <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com> <036c01cc70cd$18612cd0$49238670$@ntlworld.com> <4E6CE60B.11421.1A2BF18@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Could you cook with a gas cooker (kitchen range) whose knobs had only > a full-on setting? Isn't that how most men cook? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 11 19:22:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:22:01 -0700 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6D48D3.3050301@jwsss.com> References: <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com>, <036c01cc70cd$18612cd0$49238670$@ntlworld.com>, <4E6D48D3.3050301@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E6CEE39.28794.1C2B374@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2011 at 16:48, jim s wrote: > Of course I'm assuming you don't have one of the old Wellers we used > to use to do house electrical as well as plumbing soldering, and a > fine point cheapo with no temperature control. One of the ones that > operate like that would melt the board and the solder and the part. To this day, I have memories of picking up an American Beauty 100W iron by the business end. The burns took like what seemed forever to heal. Those things are still made. I think the top of the line is a 550W monster. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 11 19:24:40 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 01:24:40 +0100 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? Message-ID: <4E6D5148.9060603@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Well, we've got a thread on desoldering kit, so I'm going to start one on soldering stations... :) It seems my love-hate relationship with my Antex 660TC soldering station has finally become one of almost pure hate. I sat down to assemble a couple of DiscFerret boards tonight, and after about 40 minutes the handle of the iron was too hot to hold. Tried again with the other iron, same story. If I hold it any further back, then the whole thing is completely out of balance... So I figure it's time for a change. Hopefully to something which won't try and roast my fingers. I've narrowed my choices down to two manufacturers -- OKi-Metcal and Pace. This is basically because they're the only two "professional" brands Farnell carry (I did look at some of the Weller soldering stations but they don't look much better than the Antex). I'm looking for something that'll suit SMD work -- ideally one which has "mini-wave" soldering iron bits (aka "hoof" bits) easily available, and is designed for lead-free work. I do run an SnPb line as well, though I'm slowly phasing it out (once I run out of 60-40 solder, which might take a while...!) At the moment the front-runners are: - Pace WJS100 (with TD-100 and Instant Set-Back aka auto-standby). Not overly keen on this one, seems overpriced when compared to other Pace kit (especially when you consider that the WJS only works with certain soldering bits and one type of handpiece) - Pace ST50 + TD100. Seems about the same as the WJS100, but will run the tweezer handpiece and a wider variety of bits. Catch is, I'd have to special-order this from Pace UK if I wanted the ISB option (Farnell don't stock the ISB "cubby" / iron stand). - Metcal MFR-1110. Cheaper than the Pace (or so it would seem), cheaper tips. Also seems to have "auto standby" as standard. What concerns me is that it seems to run at a fixed temperature, though OKi/Metcal claim that SmartHeat makes this a non-issue... I'm not convinced... Has anyone used any of the above, or anything similar? Are there any other brands (or other soldering stations from the above manufacturers) that I should look at? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 11 19:41:38 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:41:38 -0700 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <4E6D5148.9060603@philpem.me.uk> References: <4E6D5148.9060603@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4E6D5542.30505@bitsavers.org> On 9/11/11 5:24 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > - Metcal MFR-1110. Cheaper than the Pace (or so it would seem), cheaper tips. Also seems to have "auto standby" as standard. What concerns me is that it seems to run at a fixed temperature, though > OKi/Metcal claim that SmartHeat makes this a non-issue... I'm not convinced... > > Has anyone used any of the above, or anything similar? > I am a big fan of Metcal, especially for surface-mount work. Once you use one, you will never want to use an ordinary soldering iron again. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Sep 11 19:46:11 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:46:11 -0400 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <4E6D5148.9060603@philpem.me.uk> References: <4E6D5148.9060603@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <003301cc70e5$5e495e30$1adc1a90$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > - Pace ST50 + TD100. Seems about the same as the WJS100, but will > run the tweezer handpiece and a wider variety of bits. Catch is, I'd > have to special-order this from Pace UK if I wanted the ISB option > (Farnell don't stock the ISB "cubby" / iron stand). Well, I can't say enough good things about the second hand Pace ST45 that I use. A real joy. Bill From fryers at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 19:59:59 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 08:59:59 +0800 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <4E6D5148.9060603@philpem.me.uk> References: <4E6D5148.9060603@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: All, On 12 September 2011 08:24, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Well, we've got a thread on desoldering kit, so I'm going to start one on > soldering stations... :) [...] > I've narrowed my choices down to two manufacturers -- OKi-Metcal and Pace. > This is basically because they're the only two "professional" brands Farnell > carry (I did look at some of the Weller soldering stations but they don't > look much better than the Antex). I have a couple of Weller WTCPTD. Purchased the second because the first one was in Australia and I was in the UK. They have been great. One must be close to 20 years old now and still working fine. > I'm looking for something that'll suit SMD work -- ideally one which has > "mini-wave" soldering iron bits (aka "hoof" bits) easily available, and is > designed for lead-free work. I do run an SnPb line as well, though I'm > slowly phasing it out (once I run out of 60-40 solder, which might take a > while...!) I have done a little SMD work with the Weller, but the bits I have are not really fine enough. To deal with SnPb and Pb free solder, I keep two separate tips and rolls of solder. [...] As a disclaimer, as you have probably already guessed, I am a huge fan of the Weller irons. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From jws at jwsss.com Sun Sep 11 20:25:29 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 18:25:29 -0700 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6CEE39.28794.1C2B374@cclist.sydex.com> References: <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com>, <036c01cc70cd$18612cd0$49238670$@ntlworld.com>, <4E6D48D3.3050301@jwsss.com> <4E6CEE39.28794.1C2B374@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E6D5F89.7010902@jwsss.com> On 9/11/2011 5:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > To this day, I have memories of picking up an American Beauty 100W > iron by the business end. The burns took like what seemed forever to > heal. > > Those things are still made. I think the top of the line is a 550W > monster. > > --Chuck I saw one at a swap meet (the high watt one) and thought it was a joke. Some of them had variable output triggers on them, but I don't know any job you'd take one to that would be anything other than full on, and almost none here on this list other than power circuits, I would think. From cctech at vax-11.org Sun Sep 11 21:41:05 2011 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:41:05 -0600 (MDT) Subject: VAX 6000 diagnostics CDROM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not mine http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-digital-VAX-6000-Diagnostic-CD-ROM-/260827761362 From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 21:50:23 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:50:23 -0400 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6CEE39.28794.1C2B374@cclist.sydex.com> References: <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com>, <036c01cc70cd$18612cd0$49238670$@ntlworld.com>, <4E6D48D3.3050301@jwsss.com> <4E6CEE39.28794.1C2B374@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E6D736F.4040308@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Those things are still made. I think the top of the line is a 550W > monster. I think if I were doing something that requires that much heat, I'd use a torch. Peace... Sridhar From jtp at chinalake.com Sun Sep 11 21:56:36 2011 From: jtp at chinalake.com (J. Peterson) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:56:36 -0400 Subject: FS (MA-USA): DEC Y SCSI, Alpha book--the paper kind, Konexx acoustic coupler, HP 1630D LA, DAT DDS3 Message-ID: <000001cc70f7$96ccf7f0$c466e7d0$@chinalake.com> Clearing out; a few items for sale. Remainders posted on ebay next week. Photos at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/31439100 at N05/sets/72157627525411857/ Location: Metro-west Boston, MA US, ship from 01888 Check/MO preferred, ppal if most convenient - DEC SCSI Y cable BN21V-0B Rev A02 No dings, dents, bent pins $25 + ship (~14 oz) - Book, new condition: Alpha Implementations and Architecture 1996 Digital Press ISBN: 1-55558-130-7 39.95 sticker on the back, probably from SoftPro MA if they weren't closed by then $15 + ship (~1.5 lb padded envelope or box, std or media mail--your call) - Konexx Koupler, Acoustic Coupler Works, great cosmetic shape: functional or for collector This is the early blue unit--"patent pending" Used to use this when traveling in odd spots, worked well at a speedy 2400 These are apparently still made by Konexx http://www.konexx.com/ $30 + ship (~14 oz) - Adaptec 1740A EISA SCSI card Worked when shelved long ago, manual may be around eisa descriptor files--on your own $0 + shipping costs (<1 lb) - HP 1630D Logic Analyzer Used (really), working, old critter so I won't guaranty a lifespan This was two different units--last of the spares. The power supply was repaired at some point--usual fuse holder wall bang among other things. The new fuse holder is mounted to the chassis rather than the power board, but is connected with insulated terminals allowing easy removal of the board. Has the most recent ROMs I had in stock. One set of flying leads, full row so you can use as either state or timing The leads are passive, thus you can make additional sets. I really am not interested in shipping this--getting larges boxes, etc. $20 local pickup, or possibly delivery for nominal $. - Sony SDT-S9000 External DAT DDS3 12/24 Tape unit Excellent shape. No spare media--shredder, have a cleaning tape or two. Same unit posted a few months ago that a few interested folks never followed up on. AMP ends, includes a terminator, let me know if you need a cable and what ends (nominal$) $25 + shipping (~6 lb) --Jim From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Sep 11 22:12:14 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 23:12:14 -0400 Subject: Desoldering (Again) References: <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com>, <036c01cc70cd$18612cd0$49238670$@ntlworld.com>, <4E6D48D3.3050301@jwsss.com> <4E6CEE39.28794.1C2B374@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <9B7A4BEE498F40E5B24D9C93F24F41BA@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 8:22 PM Subject: Re: Desoldering (Again) > On 11 Sep 2011 at 16:48, jim s wrote: > > Those things are still made. I think the top of the line is a 550W > monster. > > --Chuck > 550W monster? Are we talking soldering irons or the latest Geforce Video card (which you could probably solder with if it had a tip connected to the heatsink)? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 11 22:48:56 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:48:56 -0700 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6D5F89.7010902@jwsss.com> References: <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com>, <4E6CEE39.28794.1C2B374@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E6D5F89.7010902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E6D1EB8.4158.2802496@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2011 at 18:25, jim s wrote: > I saw one at a swap meet (the high watt one) and thought it was a > joke. Some of them had variable output triggers on them, but I don't > know any job you'd take one to that would be anything other than full > on, and almost none here on this list other than power circuits, I > would think. I'm not sure about the application, but I suspect it's for jobs such as soldering copper sheet, such as one might find on gutters and flashing. You really don't want to use a bare flame on that stuff-- it doesn't take too much heat beyond that required for soldering to make copper sheet deform. If you were building a large Faraday cage for your gear, it might come in handy. --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Sep 11 22:58:40 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:58:40 -0700 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <003301cc70e5$5e495e30$1adc1a90$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 9/11/11 5:46 PM, "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: >> - Pace ST50 + TD100. Seems about the same as the WJS100, but will >> run the tweezer handpiece and a wider variety of bits. Catch is, I'd >> have to special-order this from Pace UK if I wanted the ISB option >> (Farnell don't stock the ISB "cubby" / iron stand). > > Well, I can't say enough good things about the second hand Pace ST45 that > I use. A real joy. > > Bill I'm pleased with the Hakko 936 I use for most of my soldering. The temp control has been very accurate and I've been using the heck out of it for the last few years. It is better in some ways than the $500+ hot air and iron rework station that I have. From leaknoil at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 23:53:07 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 21:53:07 -0700 Subject: 1970's AT&T Twin Towers Film In-Reply-To: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E6D9033.5000807@gmail.com> http://techchannel.att.com/play-video.cfm/2011/9/9/AT&T-Archives-The-Twins From jws at jwsss.com Sun Sep 11 23:55:33 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 21:55:33 -0700 Subject: FS (MA-USA): DEC Y SCSI, Alpha book--the paper kind, Konexx acoustic coupler, HP 1630D LA, DAT DDS3 In-Reply-To: <000001cc70f7$96ccf7f0$c466e7d0$@chinalake.com> References: <000001cc70f7$96ccf7f0$c466e7d0$@chinalake.com> Message-ID: <4E6D90C5.7030709@jwsss.com> On 9/11/2011 7:56 PM, J. Peterson wrote: > - Adaptec 1740A EISA SCSI card > > Worked when shelved long ago, manual may be around > > eisa descriptor files--on your own > > $0 + shipping costs (<1 lb) http://www.sandyflat.net/digerati/ast486/drivers/grid/aha1740.cfg I made a copy if anyone needs it, and this source for it vanishes. Look for the AST archives for other EISA files. Most of the info is I/O ports and memory ranges and can be adapted if the AST numbers don't quite jibe with your needs. The alias for this is that is used onboard is the AHA7770 chip if you have one of those boards this will add a second adapter for you. I'm all PCI and Microchannel (little of that, but still useful for 3270 adapters I have) or I'd be interested. Jim From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 12 00:32:33 2011 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 22:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <4E6D5148.9060603@philpem.me.uk> References: <4E6D5148.9060603@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1315805553.42196.YahooMailNeo@web38104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Phil, All of those units look pretty good.? I think the asymptote for soldering irons is the size and balance of a pencil; the wands all look about the same for the best stations. I got all my (metcal) soldering gear cheap and used on Ebay years ago, and have been glad ever since.? Before that I had a weller WTCP, and there's no comparison.? For the same price as the models you listed, you could pick up a used Metcal MX-500 system on Ebay, with solder and desolder attachments, like this:? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metcal-MX-500P-11-Power-Supply-Wand-Desoldering-DS1-/270815943143?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0de359e7 Or if you don't want to supply compressed air, you could pick up the a MX-500 with wand and an SP-440 desoldering station about the same amount, if you are patient. I'm a fan of the metcal stuff.? The skinny pencil sits just like a pen in the hand, same balance and distance, really about optimal. The old stuff works just as well as their newest offerings for everything I've come across.? I actually have th DS1 desoldering kit, but I don't have compressed air in my home lab, so I use an SP-440 and it works beautifully. Dave >________________________________ >From: Philip Pemberton >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 7:24 PM >Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? > >Hi guys, > >Well, we've got a thread on desoldering kit, so I'm going to start one on soldering stations... :) > >It seems my love-hate relationship with my Antex 660TC soldering station has finally become one of almost pure hate. I sat down to assemble a couple of DiscFerret boards tonight, and after about 40 minutes the handle of the iron was too hot to hold. Tried again with the other iron, same story. If I hold it any further back, then the whole thing is completely out of balance... > >So I figure it's time for a change. Hopefully to something which won't try and roast my fingers. > >I've narrowed my choices down to two manufacturers -- OKi-Metcal and Pace. This is basically because they're the only two "professional" brands Farnell carry (I did look at some of the Weller soldering stations but they don't look much better than the Antex). > >I'm looking for something that'll suit SMD work -- ideally one which has "mini-wave" soldering iron bits (aka "hoof" bits) easily available, and is designed for lead-free work. I do run an SnPb line as well, though I'm slowly phasing it out (once I run out of 60-40 solder, which might take a while...!) > >At the moment the front-runners are: >? - Pace WJS100 (with TD-100 and Instant Set-Back aka auto-standby). Not overly keen on this one, seems overpriced when compared to other Pace kit (especially when you consider that the WJS only works with certain soldering bits and one type of handpiece) > >? - Pace ST50 + TD100. Seems about the same as the WJS100, but will run the tweezer handpiece and a wider variety of bits. Catch is, I'd have to special-order this from Pace UK if I wanted the ISB option (Farnell don't stock the ISB "cubby" / iron stand). > >? - Metcal MFR-1110. Cheaper than the Pace (or so it would seem), cheaper tips. Also seems to have "auto standby" as standard. What concerns me is that it seems to run at a fixed temperature, though OKi/Metcal claim that SmartHeat makes this a non-issue... I'm not convinced... > >Has anyone used any of the above, or anything similar? > >Are there any other brands (or other soldering stations from the above manufacturers) that I should look at? > >Thanks, >-- Phil. >classiccmp at philpem.me.uk >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > > > From jonas at otter.se Sun Sep 11 13:09:06 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:09:06 +0200 Subject: printers was: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E6CF942.103@otter.se> On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 20:42:42 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Sure, it;s the HP9866A > > ... Amazing what can be done in 32 bytes... >>> You know full well that financial value is not a reason for collecting >>> something. >> Unfortunately that is not the case for those transatlantic gentlemen who >> spend their time on eBay buying "rare gold computer chips" for insane >> amounts of money, driving up the prices for the rest of us :-( > Yes, you're right, there are some people who appear to collect as an > investment. Personally I think there arre safer things to invest your > money in, and I think that classic computer hardware is much more > interesting when it is put into operation. > Oh, absolutely, why can't they just collect gold or something and leave the old cameras, computers and so on to those who actually take an interest in the things. /Jonas From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 12 02:08:53 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 08:08:53 +0100 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6CEE39.28794.1C2B374@cclist.sydex.com> References: <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com>, <036c01cc70cd$18612cd0$49238670$@ntlworld.com>, <4E6D48D3.3050301@jwsss.com> <4E6CEE39.28794.1C2B374@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E6DB005.2040009@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/09/2011 01:22, Chuck Guzis wrote: > To this day, I have memories of picking up an American Beauty 100W > iron by the business end. The burns took like what seemed forever to > heal. Many decades ago, when I worked in a secondary school (that's a high school to transpondians), we had soldering irons with a hook to hang them onto a rail or the edge of a bench. Business end uppermost. I had a nice Henley Solon iron with a stainless steel shaft, and one day a young lady called Lorna wandered in to continue some project work. "Oh," she said, "what pretty colours" and before anyone could stop her, picked it up by the pretty coloured end. She let it go rather quickly. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 12 02:08:50 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 08:08:50 +0100 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6D1EB8.4158.2802496@cclist.sydex.com> References: <032701cc7004$e19a55f0$a4cf01d0$@ntlworld.com>, <4E6CEE39.28794.1C2B374@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E6D5F89.7010902@jwsss.com> <4E6D1EB8.4158.2802496@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E6DB002.9060500@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/09/2011 04:48, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm not sure about the application, but I suspect it's for jobs such > as soldering copper sheet, such as one might find on gutters and > flashing. You really don't want to use a bare flame on that stuff-- > it doesn't take too much heat beyond that required for soldering to > make copper sheet deform. Or pretty much any sort of sheet metal. A year or so ago I was doing things with some 24G stainless steel sheet and rings, and a torch was not ideal. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 12 02:16:24 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 00:16:24 -0700 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E6DB1C8.1040805@brouhaha.com> Geoffrey Reed wrote: > I'm pleased with the Hakko 936 I use for most of my soldering. The temp > control has been very accurate and I've been using the heck out of it for > the last few years. It is better in some ways than the $500+ hot air and > iron rework station that I have. I have a Hakko 936 also, and I like it fine for through-hole work and for SMT stuff that isn't too fine, but it's no match for a Metcal for doing fine-pitch SMT work. I've used a Metcal at a previous place of employment, and really miss it. Hakko has discontinued the 936, and replaced it with the repulsive looking FX-888. Although the FX-888 is claimed to have better performance than the 936, I think when I need another soldering station I'll look for a used Metcal instead. Given that everything new comes in BGAs instead of leaded packages, I wish I could find a good deal on a used BGA rework station, such as a Hakko FR-1418. I suppose there's slightly more chance that I could afford a used Jovy Systems RE-7500. Eric From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Sep 12 08:23:07 2011 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 07:23:07 -0600 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <4E6D5542.30505@bitsavers.org> References: <4E6D5148.9060603@philpem.me.uk> <4E6D5542.30505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E6E07BB.2060807@e-bbes.com> On 2011-09-11 18:41, Al Kossow wrote: > I am a big fan of Metcal, especially for surface-mount work. > Once you use one, you will never want to use an ordinary soldering iron > again. Same here, bought a complete Metcal station, used on ebay, and didn't use my Weller since. (have/had really a couple of them) One point which wasn't mentioned so far, get from the beginning the right bits & accessories for what you're trying to solder. That's when the fun begins and you really feel the value of the station. Cheers From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Sep 12 10:19:38 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 08:19:38 -0700 Subject: VAX 6000 diagnostics CDROM In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Gee, thanks for mentioning that. :-) (Yes, I bought it.) Now would you, or anyone else on this list, happen to have engineering drawings for the VAX 6000-600? I have one, and the power supply is wonky. It's a "smart" power supply that shuts itself off after about ten seconds. I've replaced nearly every component, no joy. So I'm trying to find engineering drawings (schematics) so I can do some deep troubleshooting. Anyone? (PS: this is in my personal collection.) Thanks -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of cctech at vax-11.org [cctech at vax-11.org] Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 7:41 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: VAX 6000 diagnostics CDROM Not mine http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-digital-VAX-6000-Diagnostic-CD-ROM-/260827761362 From tiina at finntrans.com Mon Sep 12 09:01:01 2011 From: tiina at finntrans.com (Tiina@FinnTrans) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 09:01:01 -0500 Subject: Nixdorf 8810 M15 Message-ID: <000701cc7154$6894de40$39be9ac0$@com> Hello, Before discarding my good ol' Nixdorf laptop I thought I would check if anyone would like to have it. I is pretty heavy (18 lb), so mailing it would not be cheap, but I live in the Dallas area should there be a collector nearby. Please let me know what you think. Thank you, Tiina Fallini, MA ATA Certified Translator and Interpreter English <> Finnish tiina at finntrans.com www.FinnTrans.com 817.399.0246 (CST) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 12 10:28:47 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 08:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: at&t 3b1, pc7300 In-Reply-To: <4E6671B5.2010108@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <1315841327.74808.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> a set of disks (OS) would be most welcome. Although my 7300s h/d does work, albeit intermittently, it would be fantabulous to have the original media (and I had the original media, though it was worthless datawise, so I chucked it all. stupid). And I'd even pay you something for it all. And freely make it available to others. --- On Tue, 9/6/11, emanuel stiebler wrote: > From: emanuel stiebler > Subject: at&t 3b1, pc7300 > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Tuesday, September 6, 2011, 3:17 PM > Hi all, > acquired few boxes with 3b1 & pc7300 stuff. Anybody is > looking for parts or complete units? > Cheers, > emanuel > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 12 10:34:22 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 08:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: at&t 3b1, pc7300 In-Reply-To: <1315342542.4955.10.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1315841662.80635.YahooMailClassic@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 9/6/11, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > I would love to help him, as I'm interested in the > emulator to. But > > shipping is the problem. > > Are any American classiccmp-ers planning a visit to the > Land of Earl > Grey and Scones in the not too distant future? :) > > I'd really like to get FreeBee finished, but without the > timing data > from the memory mapper, it's a non-starter... :( My trip to the Emerald Isle and it's offshoot is long overdue :). I actually touched down in Ireland (when I was 4). But turns out they had enough Keegans and waved the family on. No, probably won't be coming 'round anytime soon. But what exactly is your need? An entire unit? No, I wouldn't be paying to ship that. But if there's a specific part/s you need, let me know. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 12 10:46:55 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 08:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1315842415.52105.YahooMailClassic@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 9/9/11, Tony Duell wrote: > Hang on though... IIRC this machine there are external > connectors > (keyboard, printer, probably RS232) on thr CPU board. If > you take the top > cover off the machine, you can't see the backs of these > conenctors, which > should imply there's something hidden under the main > chassis. Yes but I wasn't that smart back then. Only slightly smarter now, which isn't saying much. > Incidentally, some later Olivetti machines had a more > traditional passive > backplane design with the CPU/memory on an ISA card. Well when I run into those, they're getting the once over no matter what! You betcha! > I thought we tended to like the unorthodox stuff here :-) True, but I find some stuff to be beautiful (alluring?) because it's so plain, hum drum. Hard to understand maybe. But take for instance the Atari PC? I saw on ebay.canada years ago. Haven't seen it since. Perhaps it was a mod or a strange one off. It was so freaking a plain beige box it was tantalizing. Don't know why. I'm strange I guess. > This can be another result of board-swapping :-(. The > previous owner > finds a board has failed (ither from the diagnostics, or by > swapping it > with one in a similar machine) and then throws out the > defective board > becuase it's (incorrectly) believed it can't be > repaired.? Oh well... Actually it's probably none of that. I have obtained cpu boards from this same guy. He likes to tear out the guts oftentimes, scrounge the uP in particular. I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled everything out of the thing, and left the case on the stoop (porch) for dead, where I scrounged it. Anything is possible. I might need to go through his piles of stuff one day soon to see if I can salvage this box. Because I love it. Did get a couple of very rare monitors off this guy, for free, so I guess I can't complain w/any legitimacy. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Sep 12 11:39:42 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 17:39:42 +0100 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <4E6E07BB.2060807@e-bbes.com> References: <4E6D5148.9060603@philpem.me.uk> <4E6D5542.30505@bitsavers.org> <4E6E07BB.2060807@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4E6E35CE.7030500@philpem.me.uk> On 12/09/11 14:23, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2011-09-11 18:41, Al Kossow wrote: >> I am a big fan of Metcal, especially for surface-mount work. >> Once you use one, you will never want to use an ordinary soldering iron >> again. > > Same here, bought a complete Metcal station, used on ebay, and didn't > use my Weller since. (have/had really a couple of them) > > One point which wasn't mentioned so far, get from the beginning the > right bits & accessories for what you're trying to solder. That's when > the fun begins and you really feel the value of the station. Well, that settles it :) 4 votes for Metcal 2 for Hakko 1 for Pace 1 for Weller (I counted Eric's message as 1 for Hakko and 1 for Metcal -- "I have a Hakko, but I miss the Metcal I used at work") I've just bought myself a Metcal MFR-1110 (apparently the replacement for the SP-200) and a box of bits. As a test, I reworked a bunch of joints on a stubborn old DiscFerret. Perfect every time. The front of the handle gets a little warm, but nowhere near as warm as the Antex (maybe 35 degrees C). Swapping bits is a piece of cake, and can apparently be done in a "semi-hot swap" fashion. Neat. It even handles the massive power-plane pads used for the inductors on the DiscFerret. First time I've soldered those without having to ramp up the temperature... I think I'm in love. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Sep 12 12:35:41 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 19:35:41 +0200 Subject: VAX 6000 diagnostics CDROM In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <003001cc7172$699c8ea0$3cd5abe0$@xs4all.nl> Try Bernd Ulmann of www.vaxman.de he has a lot VAX-stuff and papers. Ulmann at vaxman.de -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Ian King > Verzonden: maandag 12 september 2011 17:20 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On- > Topic Posts Only > Onderwerp: RE: VAX 6000 diagnostics CDROM > > Gee, thanks for mentioning that. :-) (Yes, I bought it.) > > Now would you, or anyone else on this list, happen to have engineering > drawings for the VAX 6000-600? I have one, and the power supply is wonky. It's > a "smart" power supply that shuts itself off after about ten seconds. I've > replaced nearly every component, no joy. So I'm trying to find engineering > drawings (schematics) so I can do some deep troubleshooting. Anyone? (PS: > this is in my personal collection.) Thanks -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > Behalf Of cctech at vax-11.org [cctech at vax-11.org] > Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 7:41 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: VAX 6000 diagnostics CDROM > > Not mine > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-digital-VAX-6000-Diagnostic-CD-ROM- > /260827761362 > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 12 13:52:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 19:52:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: printers was: DiscFerret disc analysers for sale! In-Reply-To: <4E6CF942.103@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Sep 11, 11 08:09:06 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 20:42:42 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony > Duell) wrote: > > Sure, it;s the HP9866A > > > > ... > Amazing what can be done in 32 bytes... Indeed. I found the state machine very interesting to figure out. Although as somebody pointed out at the HPCC mini-conference, there's quite a bit of the control ssytem (chrcter counters, etc) that is not part of this state machine (althohgh obviousl the xtate machien controls and is controlled by these other sections). I thought that was a very sensible comment, and it pleased me to realise that at least somebody had understood what I was talking about :-) There are a few photos of the mini-cofernce on the hpcc web site I think (http://www.hpcc.org/), should anyone waht to see what I was doing with the 9866A HPCC is not a classic computer club (and this I suppose it's off-topic here), but we do talk about older HP calcualtors and desktop machines from time to time. If anyone is free in the London (UK) area on the second saturday of a month, you'd be very welcome to come along (all we ask is that if you start coming evry month, you join :-)). We're notionally a calculator club, but in reality we talk about calculators (old and new), mathematics, computers(old and new), electronics (from valves to FPGAs), photography (film, digital, old cameras), progrmaming (in just aobut any language for any machine), metalwork, general hackery, etc, etc, etc. > Oh, absolutely, why can't they just collect gold or something and leave > the old cameras, computers and so on to those who actually take an > interest in the things. Becxasue they're probably get their gold by refining it from old HP circuit boards, ICs, and the like :-(. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 12 14:09:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:09:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <036c01cc70cd$18612cd0$49238670$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 11, 11 10:52:23 pm Message-ID: > > > I don;t know what you have at the momnet, but if it's not temperature- > > controlled you are making life difficult for yourself. > > > > I have a Weller 40W iron, not temperature controlled. What I don't > understand is why this makes life difficult, if it melts the solder what > makes it hard to use? The only thing I can think of is damage to the board Right... Consider that iron for a moment. The heating element is alsways on. The temperature it gets to is determined by the point at which the heat supplied by that element equals the heat loast by radiation, etc from the soldering iron shaft and bit. Sicne we don't want it to get ridiculaous hot, that temperature is set (by the design of the iron) to be a bit above the melthing point of the solder. Now think what happens when you put it on a connection, particularly one wherr ther'es a significant bit of metal attached (like a power or ground plane in a PCB). The heat losses are now increased, but the heat input from the element is the same. The result is that the bit temperature drops. maybe to a poitn wher it can no longer melt the solder. If oyu have a temperature controleld iron, the element is not on all the time. When you put it on a conneciton, the element is kept on for longer by the thermostat device to maintain the bit temperature. So the bit remains hot enough to melt the solder > and/or components if the temperature is too high. Is there something else Actually, more damage is done by too cold an iron than too hot an iron (within reason). The reason is that anyt soldering iron is 'hot' for PCBs and semiconductors, the colder iron has to be kept on longer so more heat is condcuted along with wires and tracks, causing more damage. > about a non-temperature controlled iron that makes things hard? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 12 14:15:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:15:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6CEE39.28794.1C2B374@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 11, 11 05:22:01 pm Message-ID: > To this day, I have memories of picking up an American Beauty 100W > iron by the business end. The burns took like what seemed forever to > heal. I remmmebr when I was at school I was using a cheap Antex iron to assmble smme bit of ciruciry and somebody tripped over the mains lead to the iron. This pulled said iron through my hand, and I ended up holding it by the metal shaft. Of course I dropped it as soon as I realised, but I had blisters for some time afterwards... Still, doing said electronics was infinitely prefereabl to what almost all the other kids were doing at the time (namely various forms of sport/exercise). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 12 14:39:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 20:39:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <4E6D5542.30505@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Sep 11, 11 05:41:38 pm Message-ID: > I am a big fan of Metcal, especially for surface-mount work. > Once you use one, you will never want to use an ordinary soldering iron again. Since such a solderion station is a major invenstment (at least for a hobbyist like me), how easy is it to get spares for them (I don't just mena replacemetn tips). One thing that attracted me to the Weller TCP was that all parts were available. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 12 17:04:19 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 23:04:19 +0100 Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk Message-ID: <03cc01cc7197$ed48bfb0$c7da3f10$@ntlworld.com> I want to get the lid off one of my RD54s. Having unscrewed all the 12 torx screws, the lid still seems to be held down by something. I have probed around for any screws under the label but only found one curious red plastic thing. Is there a trick to this or is it going to be just the rubber gasket that is holding it down? Thanks Rob From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 12 17:33:20 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 15:33:20 -0700 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: References: <4E6D5542.30505@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Sep 11, 11 05:41:38 pm, Message-ID: <4E6E2640.27982.16B9AE2@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2011 at 20:39, Tony Duell wrote: > Since such a solderion station is a major invenstment (at least for a > hobbyist like me), how easy is it to get spares for them (I don't just > mena replacemetn tips). One thing that attracted me to the Weller TCP > was that all parts were available. I'll admit that the Metcal and Hakko stations are really tempting, and I may yet get one. But parts for the Weller have been available (with some minor changes) for something like a half-century. My last replacement was the heater. Not bad for 30-odd years of use. But I had to remember to get a new screw-on retainer for it, as the newer heaters are a bit fatter. It took less than 10 minutes to put the new one on. Weller TCPs were the standard iron in Silicon Valley for many years. But perhaps their day has come and gone and it's time to look for a better one. On the other hand, I never cared for their desoldering station (2 irons, one for sucking the other for soldering). I used it with an external vacuum pump, although if you have plant air, you can use an aspirator to generate the required vacuum. The tip kept plugging up; you had to periodically remove the glass wool from the little glass cartridge and keeping the thing tinned was a real battle. But at the time, it was the best out there. --Chuck From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Sep 12 17:42:51 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 15:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S-100 buffered prototyping board PCBs Message-ID: <1315867371.73387.YahooMailClassic@web180216.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, I have several S-100 buffered prototyping board PCBs available.? They are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Technical information available here http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Prototype%20Board/Prototype%20Board.htm http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20buffered%20prototyping%20card Please contact me if interested.? Thanks! Andrew Lynch From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Sep 12 18:41:41 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 00:41:41 +0100 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E6E98B5.3040502@philpem.me.uk> On 12/09/11 20:39, Tony Duell wrote: > Since such a solderion station is a major invenstment (at least for a > hobbyist like me), how easy is it to get spares for them (I don't just > mena replacemetn tips). One thing that attracted me to the Weller TCP was > that all parts were available. For the Metcal MFR series, you can get tips, handpieces and stands from Farnell as standard stock items (typically next day delivery). More unusual parts like identifier rings (plastic clips which fit on soldering bits to identify them as having been used with lead-free or SnPb processes) generally have to be ordered from one of the UK distributors. I haven't tried that yet... (come on guys, I've only had it a couple of hours!) Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Sep 12 18:52:58 2011 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 19:52:58 -0400 Subject: 1970's AT&T Twin Towers Film In-Reply-To: <4E6D9033.5000807@gmail.com> Message-ID: All I can say is wow. It's an interesting 5 minute piece. My father worked for an air conditioning contractor which did the work at the WTC...before he worked for the phone company. Rich On 9/12/11 12:53 AM, "leaknoil" wrote: > http://techchannel.att.com/play-video.cfm/2011/9/9/AT&T-Archives-The-Twins > > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From cctech at vax-11.org Mon Sep 12 19:12:33 2011 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 18:12:33 -0600 (MDT) Subject: VAX 6000 diagnostics CDROM In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: After I posted I realized there are several of them listed, and there may be a more recent version available. If you look closely at the CDROM label you can read the date it was published. On Mon, 12 Sep 2011, Ian King wrote: > Gee, thanks for mentioning that. :-) (Yes, I bought it.) > > Now would you, or anyone else on this list, happen to have engineering drawings for the VAX 6000-600? I have one, and the power supply is wonky. It's a "smart" power supply that shuts itself off after about ten seconds. I've replaced nearly every component, no joy. So I'm trying to find engineering drawings (schematics) so I can do some deep troubleshooting. Anyone? (PS: this is in my personal collection.) Thanks -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of cctech at vax-11.org [cctech at vax-11.org] > Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 7:41 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: VAX 6000 diagnostics CDROM > > Not mine > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-digital-VAX-6000-Diagnostic-CD-ROM-/260827761362 > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 12 19:13:12 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 17:13:12 -0700 Subject: at&t 3b1, pc7300 In-Reply-To: <1315841327.74808.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1315841327.74808.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E6EA018.60204@bitsavers.org> On 9/12/11 8:28 AM, Chris M wrote: > a set of disks (OS) would be most welcome. http://bitsavers.org/bits/ATT/unixPC/ From starbase89 at gmail.com Mon Sep 12 21:50:04 2011 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:50:04 -0400 Subject: cleaning and maintenance for an ASR33 Message-ID: Hello. I have an ASR 33 teletype that I am trying to clean up and make it run well. It does work. I plan to have it hooked up to a PC via a current loop to RS232 adapter and have HeavyMetal feeding it text. It is very dirty. I replaced the ribbon. Basically, here's what I'd like to know: What parts need to be cleaned and/or lubricated? How do I clean out the paper tape punch scrap container? Can I use compressed air to remove dust, or would that cause damage? Thanks much Joe From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 13 00:01:36 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 01:01:36 -0400 Subject: AT&T unix PC Message-ID: <29D41394919A4140981F1E242D3B7768@dell8300> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-AT-T-Unix-PC-keyboard-mouse-lots-software-WORKS-/140604043399 check out all the UNIX software and manuals this thing comes with, is that what these old systems shipped with? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 13 00:42:44 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 01:42:44 -0400 Subject: AT&T unix PC In-Reply-To: <29D41394919A4140981F1E242D3B7768@dell8300> References: <29D41394919A4140981F1E242D3B7768@dell8300> Message-ID: <39D9CDCF-60CE-4486-B3E6-735907BAD03E@neurotica.com> On Sep 13, 2011, at 1:01 AM, "TeoZ" wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-AT-T-Unix-PC-keyboard-mouse-lots-software-WORKS-/140604043399 > > check out all the UNIX software and manuals this thing comes with, is that what these old systems shipped with? There are some optional packages in there that were sold at afditional cost. That's the most complete 7300 setup I've ever seen, VERY nice, too bad about the water damage on the manuals. The machine is in fantastic condition. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From leaknoil at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 00:55:25 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:55:25 -0700 Subject: AT&T unix PC In-Reply-To: <39D9CDCF-60CE-4486-B3E6-735907BAD03E@neurotica.com> References: <29D41394919A4140981F1E242D3B7768@dell8300> <39D9CDCF-60CE-4486-B3E6-735907BAD03E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E6EF04D.3070605@gmail.com> On 9/12/2011 10:42 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > The machine is in fantastic condition. -Dave Umh, it is badly yellowed, water damaged, and has a big crack in the case. I guess I just have a different idea of 'fantastic'. The original boxes is the only cool thing I see at all and they are messed up from water damage. They all came with manual sets. They are super common with complete systems. No other way to read the docs back then. All scanned online now along with all the software. The extra packages too. All on bitsavers. $500 for this is nuts. People give them away all the time and the few I've seen pass through ebay go for maybe $150 or so in much better shape. From jonas at otter.se Mon Sep 12 14:55:34 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 21:55:34 +0200 Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E6E63B6.5020008@otter.se> On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 17:49:50 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> I then put the pliers down and lift the IC with my fingers. >> >> If you can't lift the IC with your fingers you have not release all the >> legs, don't try prying - this only leads to tears and swearing... > I find that uyou can prise (pry) the IC looks after breaking the bond > between each pin and the CPB, but the trick is to know jsut how much > force you can safely apply without damaging either the IC (it is possible > to crack the DIL package and rip pins out) or the PCB. Prising can be > very useful to sdee which part of a large DIL pakacge seems ot be free > wnas whcih pios might still be holding it (and thus need resolderign and > desoldering again). Just take great care! > > I find that one needs to be very careful when prising, it is all too easy to rip out the through-hole plating. It may not be a disaster but sometimes it is very hard to solder the new IC on the component side. /Jonas From spedraja at ono.com Tue Sep 13 01:13:16 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 08:13:16 +0200 Subject: at&t 3b1, pc7300 In-Reply-To: <4E6EA018.60204@bitsavers.org> References: <1315841327.74808.YahooMailClassic@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4E6EA018.60204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I know, but I have problems to grab them in diskettes. I probed with HD 5.25 units, with Dunfield (wonderful) utility, with bad luck. If someone can do the job it would be welcome. And paid for the disturbs, shipping and handling. Min is one 3b1 with 2 Mb and DOS emulation board. Oj, and SAME for one ALTOS 586 in working state but with the XENIX kernel damaged. A pity. A similar lot (grabbed) as the 3b1 set but for the altos would be agreed. Both with development system and network and scsi drivers, by the way. Regards Sergio 2011/9/13 Al Kossow > On 9/12/11 8:28 AM, Chris M wrote: > >> a set of disks (OS) would be most welcome. >> > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/ATT/**unixPC/ > > From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 13 03:05:14 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:05:14 +0200 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff Message-ID: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> This guy has some very nice items for sale (in Germany, near Munich) Including an Decstation 78, VT52 and some nice older Olivetti equipment. http://www.ebay.de/sch/johannesmichaelemanuel/m.html?_trksid=p4340.l2562 -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Sep 13 06:11:19 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 13:11:19 +0200 Subject: What is DEC W9042 for Message-ID: <20110913111119.GE12088@Update.UU.SE> Hi I was just offered two "extender boards" which looks to fit QBus. They look like this: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/IMG_5090.JPG My own theory is that they fit the UNIBUS -> QBus converter I got with my GAMMA-11 from the same souce. Regards, Pontus From spedraja at ono.com Tue Sep 13 06:27:58 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 13:27:58 +0200 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Yes. Good stuff. I shall try for the VT220 (logic board of mine dead last month), the RL02 (for the PDP 11/23-PLUS) and the PDP-11/40 (I'm searching for one to run UNIX v6 or V7 for al ong time). Of course, if someone in EU area have some of these to trade or get rid, let me know :-) The HP2100 is temptative, but life is to do elections and selections, I think. Perhaps the VT78, but I got one PDP/8-A already. Regards. Sergio 2011/9/13 E. Groenenberg > > This guy has some very nice items for sale (in Germany, near Munich) > Including an Decstation 78, VT52 and some nice older Olivetti equipment. > > http://www.ebay.de/sch/johannesmichaelemanuel/m.html?_trksid=p4340.l2562 > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 06:29:30 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 12:29:30 +0100 Subject: What is DEC W9042 for In-Reply-To: <20110913111119.GE12088@Update.UU.SE> References: <20110913111119.GE12088@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: some hunting clues http://manx.archivist.info/search.php?search=w904&errlev=0&company=0 Dave Caroline On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > I was just offered two "extender boards" which looks to fit QBus. They > look like this: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/IMG_5090.JPG > > My own theory is that they fit the UNIBUS -> QBus converter I got with > my GAMMA-11 from the same souce. > > Regards, > Pontus > From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 13 06:46:26 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 13:46:26 +0200 Subject: What is DEC W9042 for In-Reply-To: <20110913111119.GE12088@Update.UU.SE> References: <20110913111119.GE12088@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <131dcd6621e95efd34b977a05802d8e2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Pontus, That is a specific test board used for the floating point option in the 11/34a, and the small flat cables are used to connect to the KY-11 console processor board for diagnostics usage. Regards, Ed > Hi > > I was just offered two "extender boards" which looks to fit QBus. They > look like this: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/IMG_5090.JPG > > My own theory is that they fit the UNIBUS -> QBus converter I got with > my GAMMA-11 from the same souce. > > Regards, > Pontus > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Sep 13 07:05:59 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 13:05:59 +0100 Subject: at&t 3b1, pc7300 In-Reply-To: <1315841662.80635.YahooMailClassic@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <1315841662.80635.YahooMailClassic@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1315915559.14526.2.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> On Mon, 2011-09-12 at 08:34 -0700, Chris M wrote: > No, probably won't be coming 'round anytime soon. But what exactly is your need? An entire unit? No, I wouldn't be paying to ship that. But if there's a specific part/s you need, let me know. As a starting point, the base unit, keyboard and mouse. Emulating a keyboard and mouse might be possible (I have a fair idea how the protocol is structured) but wouldn't be something I'd like to try. Display shouldn't be a problem, assuming I can get the laptop-TFT-meets-scan-converter thing ("Das Frankenmonitor") to lock onto the signal. I'm not above hacking around with the HDL code and PLL settings to make that happen :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 13 08:17:22 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:17:22 +0100 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <042301cc7217$7a4d43c0$6ee7cb40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of SPC > Sent: 13 September 2011 12:28 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff > > Yes. Good stuff. I shall try for the VT220 (logic board of mine dead last > month), the RL02 (for the PDP 11/23-PLUS) and the PDP-11/40 (I'm > searching for one to run UNIX v6 or V7 for al ong time). Indeed, lots of interesting things, most of which I cannot realistically hope to get (cost and space). I intend to go for the KFQSA boards as I want at least one. Maybe the RRD40 too. Would love to be able to get the 11/24 but shipping that is too expensive, however it would be nice to get one of the boards out of the PSU as I have hit an impasse trying to repair mine. A blinking lights PDP11 would be amazing, but there I have to draw the line if only for reasons of space right now. Rob > > Of course, if someone in EU area have some of these to trade or get rid, let > me know :-) > > The HP2100 is temptative, but life is to do elections and selections, I think. > Perhaps the VT78, but I got one PDP/8-A already. > > Regards. > Sergio > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Sep 13 09:06:07 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:06:07 +0200 Subject: What is DEC W9042 for In-Reply-To: <131dcd6621e95efd34b977a05802d8e2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <20110913111119.GE12088@Update.UU.SE> <131dcd6621e95efd34b977a05802d8e2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20110913140607.GF12088@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 01:46:26PM +0200, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Hello Pontus, > > That is a specific test board used for the floating point option in the > 11/34a, and the small flat cables are used to connect to the KY-11 > console processor board for diagnostics usage. Aha, might come in handy when I restore the 11/34 then :) /P From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 10:23:23 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 08:23:23 -0700 Subject: Seattle Retro-Computing Society's monthly meeting Saturday, September 17th, 2011 Message-ID: [forwarded on behalf of SRCS] Come one, come all, to the Seattle Retro-Computing Society's monthly meeting, on Saturday, September 17th, 2011! Do you do any of the following with old computers near Seattle? + Use, collect, and/or restore them + Play games on them + Write programs for them + Develop new hardware for them + Help other people do any of the above If your answer was "yes," as I expect it will be if you're reading this near Seattle, then the SRCS is for you! We exist so you can show off your awesome stuff, bounce ideas off of fellow enthusiasts, and be inspired by one another's achievements, plans and aspirations. No idea is too big or too small, and we're not picky about what flavor of vintage machine you prefer! Come on down and tell us about it! The meetings are graciously hosted by the Living Computer Museum, a relatively new organization which is building a computer museum in Seattle's SODO neighborhood. There will be refreshments, a Buy-Sell- Free-Trade table, and enough table space & power to set up anything you may want to show off! For further details, please see our newly improved web page at http://www.seattleretrocomputing.com/ and our mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/seattle-retrocomp . Hope to see you there! (Please note, we usually meet on the fourth Saturday of each month; we had to move it up a week this month because of schedule conflicts with retrocomputing events in other cities.) Gordon "gsteemso" Steemson SRCS agitator-in-chief From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 13 10:27:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 11:27:07 -0400 Subject: AT&T unix PC In-Reply-To: <4E6EF04D.3070605@gmail.com> References: <29D41394919A4140981F1E242D3B7768@dell8300> <39D9CDCF-60CE-4486-B3E6-735907BAD03E@neurotica.com> <4E6EF04D.3070605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E6F764B.40800@neurotica.com> On 9/13/11 1:55 AM, leaknoil wrote: > On 9/12/2011 10:42 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> The machine is in fantastic condition. -Dave > > Umh, it is badly yellowed, water damaged, and has a big crack in the > case. I guess I just have a different idea of 'fantastic'. It is lightly yellowed, which is unavoidable for a machine of this age, and it has a TINY crack in the case. Granted I looked at it via a mobile phone, but I saw no water damage whatsoever on the machine. The metal bases of 7300/3B1 machines corrode like crazy just sitting in air; I've never seen one without chassis corrosion. Except this one, that is. > The original > boxes is the only cool thing I see at all and they are messed up from > water damage. > > They all came with manual sets. They are super common with complete > systems. No other way to read the docs back then. All scanned online now > along with all the software. The extra packages too. All on bitsavers. I couldn't disagree more. ~30-year-old systems coming with complete manual sets are pretty rare, and much more so for these, since people unload the (rather nice) binders and use them for other things. None (or very nearly none) of these machines were originally purchased by individuals, so the only surviving ones are coming out of company storerooms and liquidation auctions. Books are usually thrown out, cables are sent to recyclers, and the rest are handled by goons. > $500 for this is nuts. People give them away all the time and the few > I've seen pass through ebay go for maybe $150 or so in much better shape. *snicker* I love classiccmp. ;) I guess I have a different idea of "all the time". ;) I see maybe 1-2 per year, but then I don't really look for them because I have a few. In any event, there's a bid on it (not from me) so the market has spoken. I stand by my assertion that this machine, given its age and what usually happens to these machines (bad case corrosion and REAL yellowing), is in about as good of shape as one could possibly be. I've seen maybe ONE machine (not manuals, the machine itself) in better shape than this one. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Sep 13 10:50:40 2011 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:50:40 -0500 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: <042301cc7217$7a4d43c0$6ee7cb40$@ntlworld.com> References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <042301cc7217$7a4d43c0$6ee7cb40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3CE6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> I missed the original message..does someone have an hp2100 they are getting rid of?? -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 8:17 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of SPC > Sent: 13 September 2011 12:28 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff > > Yes. Good stuff. I shall try for the VT220 (logic board of mine dead last > month), the RL02 (for the PDP 11/23-PLUS) and the PDP-11/40 (I'm > searching for one to run UNIX v6 or V7 for al ong time). Indeed, lots of interesting things, most of which I cannot realistically hope to get (cost and space). I intend to go for the KFQSA boards as I want at least one. Maybe the RRD40 too. Would love to be able to get the 11/24 but shipping that is too expensive, however it would be nice to get one of the boards out of the PSU as I have hit an impasse trying to repair mine. A blinking lights PDP11 would be amazing, but there I have to draw the line if only for reasons of space right now. Rob > > Of course, if someone in EU area have some of these to trade or get rid, let > me know :-) > > The HP2100 is temptative, but life is to do elections and selections, I think. > Perhaps the VT78, but I got one PDP/8-A already. > > Regards. > Sergio > > From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Sep 13 10:52:28 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 11:52:28 -0400 Subject: AT&T unix PC Message-ID: <681d6a2f$43553234$63ab9b1f$@com> > On 9/12/2011 10:42 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > The machine is in fantastic condition. -Dave > > Umh, it is badly yellowed, water damaged, and has a big crack in the > case. I guess I just have a different idea of 'fantastic'. The > original boxes is the only cool thing I see at all and they are messed > up from water damage. > > They all came with manual sets. They are super common with complete > systems. No other way to read the docs back then. All scanned online now > along with all the software. The extra packages too. All on bitsavers. > > $500 for this is nuts. People give them away all the time and the few > I've seen pass through ebay go for maybe $150 or so in much better shape. > I have to agree, the condition is not good enough to pay $500. Also there is no DOS card included. I am of course biased, I got my system for free. Bill From useddec at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 13:42:27 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 13:42:27 -0500 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: The H960 full of small cards might be a RP11C or E. I haven't seen one for a while. Paul On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 3:05 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > This guy has some very nice items for sale (in Germany, near Munich) > Including an Decstation 78, VT52 and some nice older Olivetti equipment. > > http://www.ebay.de/sch/johannesmichaelemanuel/m.html?_trksid=p4340.l2562 > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > > From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Tue Sep 13 15:44:45 2011 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 15:44:45 -0500 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <20110913204445.GA19324@RawFedDogs.net> On Fri, Sep 09, 2011 at 11:22:32PM +0100, Mark Wickens wrote: > Anyone had interested email addresses in the past, or an email > address which represented a nostalgic time in their life. I can't remember any of my previous ISP based addresses. Many years ago I registered a domain name for a personal web site. A nice side effect is that I can change ISPs without my address changing. When I first started in the shop I currently work in my work e-mail address was: DOKPM0 at CFLMVS.CentralFreight.com I kinda miss that one. It was for TAO e-mail accessed via CICS on an IBM mainframe. Even though the domain contains MVS we were actually running OS/390 by the time I got the above address, and we're currently running z/OS. The TAO e-mail system was retired a few years ago. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 13 15:11:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 21:11:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering (Again) In-Reply-To: <4E6E63B6.5020008@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Sep 12, 11 09:55:34 pm Message-ID: > I find that one needs to be very careful when prising, it is all too > easy to rip out the through-hole plating. It may not be a disaster but > sometimes it is very hard to solder the new IC on the component side. Or uyou'll damage the connection to a trace on an internal layer and not know where it goes. Or you'll amke an intermittant fault. Yes, you do have to be caful -- very careful -- if you try to prise the IC out, but with experience you get to know how much force you can safely apply. And not go beyond it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 13 15:21:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 21:21:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <4E6E98B5.3040502@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 13, 11 00:41:41 am Message-ID: > > On 12/09/11 20:39, Tony Duell wrote: > > Since such a solderion station is a major invenstment (at least for a > > hobbyist like me), how easy is it to get spares for them (I don't just > > mena replacemetn tips). One thing that attracted me to the Weller TCP was > > that all parts were available. > > For the Metcal MFR series, you can get tips, handpieces and stands from > Farnell as standard stock items (typically next day delivery). That is not the 'level' I meant, as I am sure you know :-). I was thinking avout things like heating elemetns (on their own), pumps (or ven parts for said pumps) for a decoldering or hot-air station, componets for the control system, and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 13 15:25:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 21:25:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: cleaning and maintenance for an ASR33 In-Reply-To: from "Joe Giliberti" at Sep 12, 11 10:50:04 pm Message-ID: > > Hello. > I have an ASR 33 teletype that I am trying to clean up and make it run > well. It does work. I plan to have it hooked up to a PC via a current > loop to RS232 adapter and have HeavyMetal feeding it text. It is very > dirty. I replaced the ribbon. Basically, here's what I'd like to know: > > What parts need to be cleaned and/or lubricated? Didn't we just have a thread on this? My recoemndation is uncharged -- strip the thing down, clean every part separately, put it back together, lubricating as you go. I asusme you have the manuals (they must be on Bitsavers). About half of volume one is lubrication instructions. Do every lubrication point shown there. > How do I clean out the paper tape punch scrap container? Is this something more than 'slide it out from under the base pan and turn it upside-down over a trash can'? > Can I use compressed air to remove dust, or would that cause damage? I doubt that compresed air at a normal sort of pressure will do any damge to the machine, but it will cause paper tape chad to fly around. If some gets in your eye, you will regret it! -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 16:42:44 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 17:42:44 -0400 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Jason T wrote: >> ...My address >> there was a hybrid, something like harper!timmoja at uunet.uu.net... > ... also the address "timmonja at harper.uucp" I started fiddling with UUCP in 1985 and over the years, as various entities handled the connections on our end of the backbone, I had several bang-path addresses, first to work, then later to my Amiga 1000 running UUCP, then by the early 1990s, that was all hidden behind .uucp aliases as the world turned to simple user at foo.com addresses in their mail agents. I had a couple of different paths to my Amiga, as the nature of hobbyist UUCP connectivity changed between 1988 and 1996... ...!ihnp4!cbosgd!osu-eddie!giza!kumiss!erd or erd at kumiss.uucp ...ihnp4!cbosgd!n8emr!uncle!jcnpc!kumiss!erd or erd at kumiss.cmhnet.org (the machine in that chain called "jcnpc" became the seed for the ISP "Infinet" (not Infi.net) that was later bought by the ISP Voyager that is now owned by Corecom - for the curious, it was an i386 "PC" owned by "jcn", one of our groups naming conventions. It happened to be running Interactive SysV UNIX, which a few list members might remember). Here's my contribution to a 10-year-old discussion on UUCP with more details and trivia... http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-June/227217.html -ethan From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 13 16:54:18 2011 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: References: <4E6D5542.30505@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Sep 11, 11 05:41:38 pm Message-ID: <1315950858.39488.YahooMailNeo@web38106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Since such a solderion station is a major invenstment (at least for a >hobbyist like me), how easy is it to get spares for them (I don't just >mena replacemetn tips). One thing that attracted me to the Weller TCP was >that all parts were available. > >-tony >I got all my tips on Ebay.? Really, I end up using the low-temp small chisel tip (I believe the STTC-037) for almost everything, including surface mount.? Sometimes the larger chisel tip for big joints, and rarely the conical tip for soldering tiny wires onto small connectors, where there's just not much space.? I just scan the listings for tips; usually several tips are sold in a batch.? It's reasonable to spend up to $10 per desired tip, counting the tips I wasn't searching for as bonuses.? The MX series is still being made, and won't go away any time soon.? I believe you can get a whole system on the order of $100 if you are patient, and aren't to squeamish about doing a bit of cleaning up. I've used the same tips for about 5 years (admittedly, not every day), and haven't seen any degradation yet. Dave From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 13 17:24:27 2011 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 15:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: References: <4E6E98B5.3040502@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 13, 11 00:41:41 am Message-ID: <1315952667.16027.YahooMailNeo@web38102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> That is not the 'level' I meant, as I am sure you know :-). I was >thinking avout things like heating elemetns (on their own), pumps (or ven >parts for said pumps) for a decoldering or hot-air station, componets for >the control system, and so on. > >-tony >The metcal tips are self-contained induction heating elements.? The rest of the unit is, IIRC, an approximately 13.5 MHZ RF generator and a cable.? If you open it up, it's not too fancy inside.? About 8 years ago, I thought I was lucky when I bought a "working" MX500 for about $75 on ebay, and of course was disappointed to receive it DOA, and the seller basically disappeared.? Even without the schematics, it was not to hard to figure out what was wrong when I opened it up.? The hardest part was figuring out how to open it--I'm not a very mechanically inclined individual.? It's been working great ever since.? Nowadays you can get working RF generators, usually the RFG-30 models, but sometimes the MX-500 models, for <$100. If you do a patent search on assignee "metcal", the description of the unit comes up with schematics, details of operation, etc.? Can't remember the number. . . (Just looked it up, patent? 4626767).? Dave From useddec at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 18:13:20 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 18:13:20 -0500 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: To anyone close, or maybe speaks German, there are a few hidden treasures in there. The 11/40, according to the board list, has a VT11 in it. The LPS-11 is also rare, and on top of it appears to be a VR17 (or a VR14). These items need a good home. I would also inquire about the cable from VT11 to VR17. I have VT11's, and maybe a LPS11, but no VT14 or VR17. I might try to adapt a VR12 to work on it. If this lot were stateside, I'd be all over parts of it. I'm sure there is a lot more there not shown in the pics. Paul On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 3:05 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > This guy has some very nice items for sale (in Germany, near Munich) > Including an Decstation 78, VT52 and some nice older Olivetti equipment. > > http://www.ebay.de/sch/johannesmichaelemanuel/m.html?_trksid=p4340.l2562 > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > > From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 13 18:16:15 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:16:15 -0700 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <1315952667.16027.YahooMailNeo@web38102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4E6E98B5.3040502@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 13, 11 00:41:41 am <1315952667.16027.YahooMailNeo@web38102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E6FE43F.5040608@brouhaha.com> Dave wrote about the RF generator used in Metcal soldering stations: > Just looked it up, patent 4626767). Since the patent has expired, have other companies started making soldering stations with that technology? Or are there other necessary patents still in force? From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Sep 13 18:27:38 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 19:27:38 -0400 Subject: DEC 4' Cabinet In-Reply-To: References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4E6FE6EA.6020908@atarimuseum.com> Anyone in the Westchester/Rockland NY or Connecticut area have a spare 4' DEC cabinet available. I'm trying to sort some gear running and I need to rack up 2 cpus and a drive and I'm in need of a cabinet, please let me know, thanks... Curt From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 13 18:49:20 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:49:20 -0700 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <1315952667.16027.YahooMailNeo@web38102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4E6E98B5.3040502@philpem.me.uk>, , <1315952667.16027.YahooMailNeo@web38102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E6F8990.3573.1735910@cclist.sydex.com> I've been perusing the web and discovered that Weller apparently has gone the way of most US industry--sacrificing quality for volume and the bottom line. So new Weller perhaps is not a good idea. Other brands not mentioned here: JBC (apparently very good) Pace Ersa Edsyn Circuit Specialists has a Hakko 936 clone for very little ($59) that might be worth considering for occasional use. FWIW, Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 19:22:42 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 19:22:42 -0500 Subject: DEC 4' Cabinet In-Reply-To: <4E6FE6EA.6020908@atarimuseum.com> References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E6FE6EA.6020908@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Hi Curt, If I can pick up a few more H960's, I'd be able to free up a few, but i'm in IL. Paul On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anyone in the Westchester/Rockland NY or Connecticut area have a spare 4' > DEC cabinet available. ? ? I'm trying to sort some gear running and I need > to rack up 2 cpus and a drive and I'm in need of a cabinet, please let me > know, thanks... > > Curt > > > From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Sep 13 22:31:50 2011 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 23:31:50 -0400 Subject: AT&T unix PC In-Reply-To: <681d6a2f$43553234$63ab9b1f$@com> References: <681d6a2f$43553234$63ab9b1f$@com> Message-ID: <4E702026.10900@hawkmountain.net> While this is beyond what I would personally pay for one of these... zooming in there are titles I've not seen (Microsoft Word, Informix, Business Graphics, etc). If anyone here is the bidder on this, I'd hope they will work with someone to have the software images archived before the diskettes potentially fall into the age of unreadability (if they haven't already). -- Curt B. Degnan wrote: >> On 9/12/2011 10:42 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> The machine is in fantastic condition. -Dave >>> >> Umh, it is badly yellowed, water damaged, and has a big crack in the >> case. I guess I just have a different idea of 'fantastic'. The >> original boxes is the only cool thing I see at all and they are messed >> up from water damage. >> >> They all came with manual sets. They are super common with complete >> systems. No other way to read the docs back then. All scanned online now >> > > >> along with all the software. The extra packages too. All on bitsavers. >> >> $500 for this is nuts. People give them away all the time and the few >> I've seen pass through ebay go for maybe $150 or so in much better >> > shape. > > > I have to agree, the condition is not good enough to pay $500. Also there > is no DOS card included. I am of course biased, I got my system for free. > > Bill > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Sep 13 22:35:58 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 23:35:58 -0400 Subject: DEC 4' Cabinet In-Reply-To: References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E6FE6EA.6020908@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4E70211E.7010704@atarimuseum.com> Hi Paul, Well, if no one closer has one, keep me in mind. Maybe Will or someone else who does a East-West and back run might be able to pick it up if you free up a cab, thanks. Curt Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Curt, > > If I can pick up a few more H960's, I'd be able to free up a few, but i'm in IL. > > Paul > > On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum > wrote: > >> Anyone in the Westchester/Rockland NY or Connecticut area have a spare 4' >> DEC cabinet available. I'm trying to sort some gear running and I need >> to rack up 2 cpus and a drive and I'm in need of a cabinet, please let me >> know, thanks... >> >> Curt >> >> >> >> > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 13 12:48:13 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cleaning and maintenance for an ASR33 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1315936093.16651.YahooMailClassic@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 9/12/11, Joe Giliberti wrote: > What parts need to be cleaned only the ones that are dirty and/or lubricated? only those that move keep in mind, wd40 is very very light. It's not a suitable lubricant for many applications. You think you have your unit all nice an lubed, but rapid wear will ensue. Do a little research and find out what is a suitable lube for the type of metal/s and what it's coming in contact with. Some plastics need lubing too. "Here we go looby lu. la la la la" LOL LOL LOL > Can I use compressed air to remove dust, or would that > cause damage? possibly. Compressed air is a resounding no no in machine shops. But I've seen at least one production shop that uses it constantly. You may run the risk of forcing something into somewhere you don't want it. But then that just might be an urban myth. Chances are you won't hurt anything. You *may* also consider break parts cleaner. It might not be friendly to all materials, so check first. Alcohol, thinner, ammonia solutions, etc. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 13 12:54:59 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT&T unix PC In-Reply-To: <29D41394919A4140981F1E242D3B7768@dell8300> Message-ID: <1315936499.60844.YahooMailClassic@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I have to catalog all my manuals. My unit probably has all that (minus the yellowing). --- On Tue, 9/13/11, TeoZ wrote: > From: TeoZ > Subject: AT&T unix PC > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Tuesday, September 13, 2011, 1:01 AM > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-AT-T-Unix-PC-keyboard-mouse-lots-software-WORKS-/140604043399 > > check out all the UNIX software and manuals this thing > comes with, is that what these old systems shipped with? > > From jws at jwsss.com Wed Sep 14 03:27:31 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 01:27:31 -0700 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4E706573.6040603@jwsss.com> Tim, are your mirrors still open? I am going to try to retrieve bitsavers again. I had my mirror here at home go away, and am going to try to recover it again from your site if that is possible. I think I tried a few weeks ago and got an error, and didn't think anything of it, but I want to try again now that I have fixed some issues. thanks Jim On 4/9/2011 6:10 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Last weekend I promised to enable rsync access to the archives > (and mirrors) here. > > I've set up the following rsync (no password required) archive sets here: > > ftp : Public rsync access to ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/ area > pdp-10-tape-images : public rsync access to the PDP-10 tape images, > i.e. http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ > bitsavers-mirror : public rsync access to my local bitsavers mirror, > i.e. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ > > Suggested rsync commands would be, for example: > > mkdir ./pdp-10-tape-images > rsync -rlptu -v www.trailing-edge.com::pdp-10-tape-images ./pdp-10-tape-images > > mkdir ./ftp.trailing-edge.com > rsync -rlptu -v www.trailing-edge.com::ftp ./ftp.trailing-edge.com > > mkdir ./bitsavers-mirror > rsync -rlptu -v www.trailing-edge.com::bitsavers-mirror ./bitsavers-mirror > > Realistically the pdp-10-tape-images and ftp sites don't change often, > butm my bitsavers mirror is kept up to date. > > I like to think my outgoing bandwidth (20 Mbit) is pretty much infinite, > this looks like a good way to find out :-) > > ftp racks up to 3.5 Gbytes. PDP-10 tapes racks up to 2.2 Gbytes. And > bitsavers-mirror racks up to 126 Gbytes. > > Tim. > > From jws at jwsss.com Wed Sep 14 03:28:05 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 01:28:05 -0700 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4E706595.5000007@jwsss.com> met to be off list, but asked anyway. sorry. Jim On 4/9/2011 6:10 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Last weekend I promised to enable rsync access to the archives > (and mirrors) here. > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Sep 14 10:09:00 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:09:00 -0700 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3CE6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>, , <042301cc7217$7a4d43c0$6ee7cb40$@ntlworld.com>, <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3CE6@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: > Subject: RE: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff > Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:50:40 -0500 > From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I missed the original message..does someone have an hp2100 they are getting rid of?? > > -Bob > Hi Bob It is in Germany. A bit heavy to take as carry on. Look on the German eBay for the current listing. I'd actually love to have the olivetti M44 but it is way to large to hall across the pond. Dwight From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 14 13:32:44 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 11:32:44 -0700 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <4E706573.6040603@jwsss.com> References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4E706573.6040603@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E70F34C.8020608@bitsavers.org> On 9/14/11 1:27 AM, jim s wrote: > Tim, > are your mirrors still open? > > I am going to try to retrieve bitsavers again. I suspect the bandwidth from bitsavers is better than from tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 14 14:24:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 20:24:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: cleaning and maintenance for an ASR33 In-Reply-To: <1315936093.16651.YahooMailClassic@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Sep 13, 11 10:48:13 am Message-ID: > > What parts need to be cleaned > > only the ones that are dirty As I mentioned last week, much of the time dirt that you can see is not a problem. OK, it makes the machine unsightly, but it won't stop it working or cause wear. Dirt that you can't see -- in pivot holes, etc, is the problem. > > and/or lubricated? > > only those that move In fact the lubrication charts in the manual indicate areas that must be free of lubricant (cotnacts, the type cylinder, etc). > > keep in mind, wd40 is very very light. It's not a suitable lubricant is it? the WD40 we get ovr here seems to be a mixture of may oils, including som that are more like waxes. The lighter oils evaporate, leaving the wax behind. This is ideal for the intended application of displacing water, but not good when it leaves a heavy waxy deposit on small moving parts. > for many applications. You think you have your unit all nice an lubed, > but rapid wear will ensue. Do a little research and find out what is a > suitable lube for the type of metal/s and what it's coming in contact For th espeed an laoding of the parts in an ASR33, the type of metal had no real effect on the lubricant. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 14 14:33:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 20:33:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <1315952667.16027.YahooMailNeo@web38102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Dave" at Sep 13, 11 03:24:27 pm Message-ID: > The metcal tips are self-c= > ontained induction heating elements.=A0 The rest of the unit is, IIRC, an a= > pproximately 13.5 MHZ RF generator and a cable.=A0 If you open it up, it's = I asssume there's some kind of tempearture control loop, which didn't seem to appear in the schematics in said patent. I am not really supprised, but I might have thought this sort of device would come with schematics and repair instructions. After all, I suspect a large majority of them are bought by electronic engineers who are quite capable of fixing it. -tony From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Sep 14 16:48:18 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 23:48:18 +0200 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4E712122.906@update.uu.se> 2011-09-14 01:13, Paul Anderson skrev: > To anyone close, or maybe speaks German, there are a few hidden > treasures in there. > > The 11/40, according to the board list, has a VT11 in it. The LPS-11 > is also rare, and on top of it appears to be a VR17 (or a VR14). These > items need a good home. I would also inquire about the cable from VT11 > to VR17. I was hoping it would be a GT40, I think they used the VR14 or 17. But it makes sense that this belongs with the 11/40 and LPS-11 /P From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 14 16:57:16 2011 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 14:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: References: <1315952667.16027.YahooMailNeo@web38102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Dave" at Sep 13, 11 03:24:27 pm Message-ID: <1316037436.46638.YahooMailNeo@web38106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >I asssume there's some kind of tempearture control loop, which didn't >seem to appear in the schematics in said patent. > >The temp control loop is built into the physics of the tip.? The tip alloy decreases conductivity at lower temps.? A constant RF current through a coil in the tip induces currents and heating in the tip.? As the temp rises, conductivity decreases, heating decreases.? This provides a negative feedback loop allowing a constant tip temperature to be set at the time of manufacture.? This effect allows the tip to maintain a constant low temperature, but dump in huge amounts of energy (without increasing temp) when soldering a bigger joint.? That's also why the RF unit is pretty simple.? I, too, was surprised that there was no official service manual.? But there is stuff floating around the net.? I will see if I can dig something up, if there's any interest. Dave I am not really supprised, but I might have thought this sort of device >would come with schematics and repair instructions. After all, I suspect >a large majority of them are bought by electronic engineers who are >quite capable of fixing it. > >-tony > > > > From useddec at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 17:05:37 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:05:37 -0500 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: <4E712122.906@update.uu.se> References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E712122.906@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Yes, The GT40 was ths the cpu and VT11 and VR14 or VR17. If you look at the pic of the LPS11 closely, the VR17 (or 14) on top of it has the light pen cable plugged into the lower right of the VR. These are also hard to find. Paul On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Pontus wrote: > 2011-09-14 01:13, Paul Anderson skrev: >> >> To anyone close, or maybe speaks German, there are a few hidden >> treasures in there. >> >> The 11/40, according to the board list, has a VT11 in it. The LPS-11 >> is also rare, and on top of it appears to be a VR17 (or a VR14). These >> items need a good home. I would also inquire about the cable from VT11 >> to VR17. > > I was hoping it would be a GT40, I think they used the VR14 or 17. But it > makes sense that this belongs with the 11/40 and LPS-11 > > /P > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 14 17:07:24 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 15:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110914150209.X30006@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > I am not really supprised, but I might have thought this sort of device > would come with schematics and repair instructions. After all, I suspect > a large majority of them are bought by electronic engineers who are > quite capable of fixing it. But, any soldered components are probably "not user serviceable" From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 14 17:18:27 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 15:18:27 -0700 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E712122.906@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4E712833.1070005@bitsavers.org> On 9/14/11 3:05 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Yes, The GT40 was ths the cpu and VT11 and VR14 or VR17. If you look > at the pic of the LPS11 closely, the VR17 (or 14) on top of it has the > light pen cable plugged into the lower right of the VR. These are also > hard to find. > GT40 is a combination VT11 11/05 in the same backplane GT44 was the VT11 graphics system in an 11/40 (I really hope someone gets this, BTW, the light pens are VERY difficult to find) GT46 was the VT11 in an 11/34 I've only ever seen GT40's with VR14's, and VR17's on GT44's and 46's From useddec at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 18:06:24 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:06:24 -0500 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: <4E712833.1070005@bitsavers.org> References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E712122.906@update.uu.se> <4E712833.1070005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I used to work on quite a few VR14's and VR17's, but never stop to think about the GT40=VR14, GT44=VR17 connection. I'm somewhat sure my VR12 came out of a PDP12. Some VT11's were add ons, with possiblly either size monitor. I've never seen a GT46, but might have seen a VT11 on a 11/34. On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/14/11 3:05 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> >> Yes, The GT40 was ths the cpu and VT11 and VR14 or VR17. If you look >> at the pic of the LPS11 closely, the VR17 (or 14) on top of it has the >> light pen cable plugged into the lower right of the VR. These are also >> hard to find. >> > > GT40 is a combination VT11 11/05 in the same backplane > GT44 was the VT11 graphics system in an 11/40 ?(I really hope someone gets > this, > BTW, the light pens are VERY difficult to find) > GT46 was the VT11 in an 11/34 > > I've only ever seen GT40's with VR14's, and VR17's on GT44's and 46's > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 14 19:22:37 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:22:37 -0700 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E712122.906@update.uu.se> <4E712833.1070005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E71454D.3000709@bitsavers.org> On 9/14/11 4:06 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I used to work on quite a few VR14's and VR17's, but never stop to > think about the GT40=VR14, GT44=VR17 connection. I'm somewhat sure my > VR12 came out of a PDP12. Some VT11's were add ons, with possiblly > either size monitor. > > I've never seen a GT46, but might have seen a VT11 on a 11/34. > DEC-11-HGT44-A_GT44_Users_Guide_Dec73 shows the machine as being in two short cabinets with a VR-17. I know I have the brochure for the GT-46 somewhere. It was a 6' cabinet with two RK-05's. We had one at UW-Milwaukee with an AR-11 and DEC joystick and keypad boxes. We had Unix V6 running on it for a while with VT-11 support. It was a bit of a kludge, since the VT-11 only has 16 bits of address support. A VR-17 would be a bit big to put on top of the GT40, which really is designed to have the VR-14 sitting on top. From philpem at philpem.me.uk Wed Sep 14 10:08:17 2011 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 16:08:17 +0100 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1316012897.18235.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> On Tue, 2011-09-13 at 21:21 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > That is not the 'level' I meant, as I am sure you know :-). I was > thinking avout things like heating elemetns (on their own), pumps (or ven > parts for said pumps) for a decoldering or hot-air station, componets for > the control system, and so on. For a Metcal MFR, you don't have a heater. It's in the tip module AIUI (or possibly in the handpiece in the form of an RF coil). Inductive heating in other words. As far as my Aoyue kit goes, I can get any part I need from the UK distributor, but the system controller PCB is classed as "probably cheaper to replace the soldering station and keep the old one for parts". Heaters are easily available and cheap (?10 and change each), and a piece of cake to swap out. Pray to whatever deity you believe in (if any) if you have to replace the handle or hose though. The connection between handle and base station is a rubber air hose with a power cable running through the centre... UGH. I doubt the Hakko machines are any better, though (the Aoyue is a clone of an old Hakko design). -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From tingox at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 14:00:37 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:00:37 +0200 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 1:13 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > To anyone close, or maybe speaks German, there are a few hidden > treasures in there. And the Parsytec Multicluster http://www.ebay.de/itm/Rare-Vintage-Computer-of-the-80s-Parsytec-Multicluster-/250891480450?pt=Klassische_Computer&hash=item3a6a4c2d82 is loaded with Transputers, apparently. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Sep 14 21:05:14 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 02:05:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Sep 2011, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 1:13 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> To anyone close, or maybe speaks German, there are a few hidden >> treasures in there. > > And the Parsytec Multicluster > http://www.ebay.de/itm/Rare-Vintage-Computer-of-the-80s-Parsytec-Multicluster-/250891480450?pt=Klassische_Computer&hash=item3a6a4c2d82 > is loaded with Transputers, apparently. Sooo tempting... don't think I can afford the shipping though. Alexey From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Sep 15 04:41:48 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:41:48 +0100 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: References: <938ced78ad542a07c52426b7a2d1bf61.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1DB9E15579A24DDDA0B870C3D624B7B1@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Despite the fact that I'm in Germany next week and it?s a collection of some 1000+ computer related items I just don't have the space. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson Sent: 14 September 2011 00:13 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff To anyone close, or maybe speaks German, there are a few hidden treasures in there. The 11/40, according to the board list, has a VT11 in it. The LPS-11 is also rare, and on top of it appears to be a VR17 (or a VR14). These items need a good home. I would also inquire about the cable from VT11 to VR17. I have VT11's, and maybe a LPS11, but no VT14 or VR17. I might try to adapt a VR12 to work on it. If this lot were stateside, I'd be all over parts of it. I'm sure there is a lot more there not shown in the pics. Paul On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 3:05 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > This guy has some very nice items for sale (in Germany, near Munich) > Including an Decstation 78, VT52 and some nice older Olivetti equipment. > > http://www.ebay.de/sch/johannesmichaelemanuel/m.html?_trksid=p4340.l2562 > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 15 13:24:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 19:24:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: from "Paul Anderson" at Sep 14, 11 05:05:37 pm Message-ID: > > Yes, The GT40 was ths the cpu and VT11 and VR14 or VR17. If you look > at the pic of the LPS11 closely, the VR17 (or 14) on top of it has the > light pen cable plugged into the lower right of the VR. These are also > hard to find. The light pne _cable_ is very simple, just a piece of screened cable with a 2-conductor 1/4" jack plug to go into the V14 and a 3.5mm 2-conductor jack plug to go into the light pen [Note for those across the Pond, a 'jackl plug' is the useual name inthe UK for what you call a 'phone plug']. The light pne is just a phototransistor on a long thin PCB with the jack socket on the otehr end. It fits into the metal tube housing. It is possible to take one apart by unscrewing the socket from the housing (although I think there is some kind of threadlock that makes it a little harder). I had a lot of problems with the socket my light pen. In theend I found that the innards from a normal in-line socket would fit the metal pen body, but they went further into the body than the DEC original. I just cut a cm or so off the ned of the PCB. However, there's also a light pen amplifier PCB inside the VR14. It's a single-height flip-chip board that goes in the edge connector block at the back, and has an 8 pin mate-n-lock connector on it for the cable to the ajck socet at the front. I believe this PCB is an option, only fitted if the light pen was used/. Schematics are in the printset if you are crazy enough to try making one. Be warned it's a low-level analogue circuit, and was the part of my GT40 that gave me the most trouble when I was sorting the unit out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 15 13:30:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 19:30:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <20110914150209.X30006@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 14, 11 03:07:24 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 14 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am not really supprised, but I might have thought this sort of device > > would come with schematics and repair instructions. After all, I suspect > > a large majority of them are bought by electronic engineers who are > > quite capable of fixing it. > > But, any soldered components are probably "not user serviceable" For the simple reason that I can't be using it if I am repairing it? I'v given up asking about service manuals for modern electronic devices, they are never available. If I can't work out how to fix it without a manual, I won't buy it. You know, I can rememebr when even a cheap transitor radio had a schematic inside (or in the manual). I have an FM radio tuner where the user manual includes schematicvs, layout diagrams, parts lists and full alignmnet instructions. I can rememebr when you could get a proper techncial manual for any common microcompuiter. Heck, I can remember when car owner's manauls told you how to pull the cylinder head to 'decoke' the engine. Now schematics are unavaialbe and car manufacutrers perpetuate the myth that modern cars are harder to service than those or 30 years ago (hint : read the approriate workshop manuals, then decide, I have). What has gone wrong??? And I realyl don't understnad why service information is not supplied with (or at least available for) devices that are almost cetainly goign to be owned and used by people with eelectroncis knowledge -- soldering stations , mutlimeters, 'scopes, etc. I've still not bougth a new DMM after my Fluke failed last year because I've yet to find a manuafactuer who will supply a service manual. Rant over... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 15 13:14:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 19:14:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <1316012897.18235.4.camel@ryoko.homenet.philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 14, 11 04:08:17 pm Message-ID: > > For a Metcal MFR, you don't have a heater. It's in the tip module AIUI > (or possibly in the handpiece in the form of an RF coil). Inductive > heating in other words. Right... > > As far as my Aoyue kit goes, I can get any part I need from the UK > distributor, but the system controller PCB is classed as "probably Hang on a second. This is a soldering station, right. Which means I am going to use it to solder things, probably PCbs. In which case, why on earth wouldn't I be able to replace components on the control PCB of the soldering station? In other words, I can jsutabpout accept that the average garage mechanic probably can't change multi-pin components on PCbs and that car electronic repair is (officially) going to involve module replacement, but a soldering station? The sort of person who buys and uses one of those is, almost by definiton, the sort of person who can rework PCBs. > Pray to whatever deity you believe in (if any) if you have to replace I am convinced the patron saint of classic computing should be St Chad of Hackforth. There is, AFAIK a genuine St Chad. There is also a village called Hackforth in the Yorkshire Dales. I don't think there's any connection between them, but the names sound right :-) > the handle or hose though. The connection between handle and base > station is a rubber air hose with a power cable running through the Right... I suspect I've had worse... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 15 13:17:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 19:17:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: <4E712122.906@update.uu.se> from "Pontus" at Sep 14, 11 11:48:18 pm Message-ID: > > The 11/40, according to the board list, has a VT11 in it. The LPS-11 > > is also rare, and on top of it appears to be a VR17 (or a VR14). These > > items need a good home. I would also inquire about the cable from VT11 > > to VR17. > > I was hoping it would be a GT40, I think they used the VR14 or 17. But > it makes sense that this belongs with the 11/40 and LPS-11 I think there was a 'packaged' system used for data logging, etc that consisted of a PD11/40, VT11, LPS11 adn a couple of RK05 drives. A GT40 is basically a PDP11/05 CPU, 8K core, the VT11 boards and a DL11 in a custom-wired backplane. -tony From useddec at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 15:41:26 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 15:41:26 -0500 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4E712122.906@update.uu.se> Message-ID: I don't think the 11/05 needed a DL11. Wasn't there a SLU built into the CPU (M7260, M7261)? There were 4 or 5 backplanes for the 11/05, 11/10, including the GT40 one. Paul On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > The 11/40, according to the board list, has a VT11 in it. The LPS-11 >> > is also rare, and on top of it appears to be a VR17 (or a VR14). These >> > items need a good home. I would also inquire about the cable from VT11 >> > to VR17. >> >> I was hoping it would be a GT40, I think they used the VR14 or 17. But >> it makes sense that this belongs with the 11/40 and LPS-11 > > I think there was a 'packaged' system used for data logging, etc that > consisted of a PD11/40, VT11, LPS11 adn a couple of RK05 drives. > > A GT40 is basically a PDP11/05 CPU, 8K core, the VT11 boards and a DL11 > in a custom-wired backplane. > > -tony > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 15 16:17:09 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:17:09 -0700 Subject: AT&T unix PC In-Reply-To: <681d6a2f$43553234$63ab9b1f$@com> References: <681d6a2f$43553234$63ab9b1f$@com> Message-ID: <4E726B55.70008@bitsavers.org> On 9/13/11 8:52 AM, B. Degnan wrote: > I have to agree, the condition is not good enough to pay $500. Someone thought it was worth twice that. Interesting that once someone noticed it had a copy of MS Word that the bidding started. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 15 16:36:05 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 17:36:05 -0400 Subject: AT&T unix PC References: <681d6a2f$43553234$63ab9b1f$@com> <4E726B55.70008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:17 PM Subject: Re: AT&T unix PC > On 9/13/11 8:52 AM, B. Degnan wrote: > >> I have to agree, the condition is not good enough to pay $500. > > Someone thought it was worth twice that. > > Interesting that once someone noticed it had a copy of MS Word > that the bidding started. > Winner has feedback of 1... wonder if it is legit. The second highest had 800+ feedback and is probably legit. MS Word and the other titles is what caught my eye in the first place. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 15 17:49:23 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 15:49:23 -0700 Subject: AT&T unix PC In-Reply-To: References: <681d6a2f$43553234$63ab9b1f$@com> <4E726B55.70008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E7280F3.9080903@brouhaha.com> > Winner has feedback of 1... wonder if it is legit. Almost every legit ebay bidder had a feedback of 1 at one time. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Sep 15 19:34:36 2011 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 20:34:36 -0400 Subject: AT&T unix PC In-Reply-To: <4E726B55.70008@bitsavers.org> References: <681d6a2f$43553234$63ab9b1f$@com> <4E726B55.70008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E72999C.6050702@hawkmountain.net> Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/13/11 8:52 AM, B. Degnan wrote: > >> I have to agree, the condition is not good enough to pay $500. > > Someone thought it was worth twice that. > > Interesting that once someone noticed it had a copy of MS Word > that the bidding started. > I only hope someone here or connected with someone here got it... so the software can be preserved. I have quite a bit of 3b1 stuff... but not the 3rd party apps in this auction. -- Curt From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 15 20:04:08 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 18:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Model M screws Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can find replacement case screws for an IBM Model M keyboard? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 15 20:31:15 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 18:31:15 -0700 Subject: Model M screws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E724473.12120.23CD821@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Sep 2011 at 18:04, David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find replacement case screws for an IBM > Model M keyboard? How close do they need to be to the original? Hex washer-head, yellow cad a must? --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Thu Sep 15 20:46:08 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 18:46:08 -0700 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <4E70F34C.8020608@bitsavers.org> References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4E706573.6040603@jwsss.com> <4E70F34C.8020608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E72AA60.8000302@jwsss.com> I took a couple of shots at doing the rsync operation on bitsavers and didn't come up with an incantation that works. Here is what I finally figured out rsync -rlptu -v rsync://bitsavers.org/bitsavers ./bitsavers however this wants a password. You were correct about Tim's connection it seemed to go into a verizon connection which might be a home, not sure. It went quickly for a while then taped off. Let me know if it is okay to copy or how to use the classiccmp connection rather than tim's Thanks Jim On 9/14/2011 11:32 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/14/11 1:27 AM, jim s wrote: >> Tim, >> are your mirrors still open? >> >> I am going to try to retrieve bitsavers again. > > I suspect the bandwidth from bitsavers is better than from tim. > > > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 15 23:19:01 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 21:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Model M screws In-Reply-To: <4E724473.12120.23CD821@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E724473.12120.23CD821@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Sep 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Sep 2011 at 18:04, David Griffith wrote: > >> Does anyone know where I can find replacement case screws for an IBM >> Model M keyboard? > > How close do they need to be to the original? Hex washer-head, > yellow cad a must? I'd prefer them to be the same size of hex head. Cadmium yellow is a don't-care. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bdwheele at indiana.edu Fri Sep 16 07:44:40 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:44:40 -0400 Subject: More DEC Bad luck. Message-ID: <1316177080.4294.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> I'm convinced that my house was built over an Indian burial ground. Or it was owned by someone heavily invested in everything but DEC... I powered up my AlphaServer 1000A last night and it looks like it has problems too. It powers up and the drives & fans spin up. The lcd showed 'ec.' only once, every other time it is blank. Nothing out of serial port 1 and the onboard VGA never initializes. I tried setting the 'failsafe boot' jumper and I put a blank floppy in the drive just to see if it would try to read the floppy and it didn't even try :( Any ideas at all? So now it looks like both of my alphas are shot (the PWS500au never initializes video, does anything with serial, and turns off all diag lights) and my DECStation 5000/120 has a bad power supply. On the plus side, all of my terminals still work and both of my vaxes (MicroVAX 3100/90 and VAXStation 4000/90) boot to VMS without problems. It brings me to a question: are the alpha systems inherently fragile? The dead DECStation is an obvious hardware issue due to (probably) a leaked capacitor which is understandable due to its age, but the Alphas are just hosed in a software kind of way. Brian From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 08:06:46 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 14:06:46 +0100 Subject: More DEC Bad luck. In-Reply-To: <1316177080.4294.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1316177080.4294.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: Some diagnosis required before any conclusions can be drawn. divide the system into easily tested items and diagnose as you go, so measure power supplies,, is there a level/pin to enable the supply check it reseat items, look for corroded contacts too Dave Caroline From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 16 09:14:14 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 07:14:14 -0700 Subject: More DEC Bad luck. In-Reply-To: <1316177080.4294.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1316177080.4294.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: At 8:44 AM -0400 9/16/11, Brian Wheeler wrote: >It brings me to a question: are the alpha systems inherently fragile? >The dead DECStation is an obvious hardware issue due to (probably) a >leaked capacitor which is understandable due to its age, but the Alphas >are just hosed in a software kind of way. I ran my PWS 433au for several years with a dead PCI slot. In fact before I gave up on it in favor of an XP1000, I believe something else had died. That actaully impressed me. My XP1000/667's powersupply died, I had to move the CPU over the the XP1000/500. At the same time, don't get me started on VAXstation 4000's. I have a 60, a 90, and a VLC. All three have issues, the 90 won't boot, the 60 is flakey, and the VLC has a bad powersupply. Honestly I need to get things setup so I can powerup and check all my DEC hardware, it's been months since I booted any of it. :-( I simply don't have the time anymore, and I can't afford to keep a VAX and Alpha running 24/7. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Sep 16 10:15:15 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:15:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: More DEC Bad luck. In-Reply-To: <1316177080.4294.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1316177080.4294.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: Hi Brian, Sorry to hear about your continued bad luck. If it's any consolation I have the opposite problem here - I keep killing terminals although the computers work OK. Touch wood and all that. Regards, Mark. On Fri, 16 Sep 2011, Brian Wheeler wrote: > I'm convinced that my house was built over an Indian burial ground. Or > it was owned by someone heavily invested in everything but DEC... > > I powered up my AlphaServer 1000A last night and it looks like it has > problems too. It powers up and the drives & fans spin up. The lcd > showed 'ec.' only once, every other time it is blank. Nothing out of > serial port 1 and the onboard VGA never initializes. > > I tried setting the 'failsafe boot' jumper and I put a blank floppy in > the drive just to see if it would try to read the floppy and it didn't > even try :( > > Any ideas at all? > > So now it looks like both of my alphas are shot (the PWS500au never > initializes video, does anything with serial, and turns off all diag > lights) and my DECStation 5000/120 has a bad power supply. > > On the plus side, all of my terminals still work and both of my vaxes > (MicroVAX 3100/90 and VAXStation 4000/90) boot to VMS without > problems. > > It brings me to a question: are the alpha systems inherently fragile? > The dead DECStation is an obvious hardware issue due to (probably) a > leaked capacitor which is understandable due to its age, but the Alphas > are just hosed in a software kind of way. > > Brian > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 16 12:40:20 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 10:40:20 -0700 Subject: DEC Floppy drive DS-53A Message-ID: <4E732794.10809.C279D3@cclist.sydex.com> Does anyone have the specs for the JPN DS-53A half-height 5.25" floppy drive? Apparently it was used on some Digital equipment, as units with DEC branding exist. The web is conflicted--either it's a 360K or a 1.2M drive. I'm wondering if it's just an RX50 clone in a half-height package and SS 96 tpi double-density. Does anyone know for certain? Thanks, Chuck From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Sep 16 12:51:14 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:51:14 -0400 Subject: ASR 33 For Sale - Fully Restored Message-ID: <201109161751.p8GHpBD8029349@billy.ezwind.net> (I am passing this along for a friend who restores and sells teletypes) "..It has been serviced, tested in local and line mode and is in excellent operating condition. Only the motor gears, belt, oil pad and rubber hammer were replaced to bring it up to like new operating condition. It has an even parity keyboard. This is the nicest 33 I have seen in many years. The only thing that keeps it from being perfect is a few minor nicks on the cover and some scratches on the pedestal. No copyholder is included, but a source for them is available if one is desired. This 33 has a rare lighted lid w/window Teletype option. If this option is not desired, the lid will be replaced with another very nice one. .." Pictures: http://vintagecomputer.net/wayne/Description_and_pics_of_Sept_2001_33.pdf $1200 Please email teletypeparts-at-aol.com if you have any questions. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 16 13:25:41 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 11:25:41 -0700 Subject: GT44/46 brochures Message-ID: <4E7394A5.1020104@bitsavers.org> uploaded now http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 16 13:23:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 19:23:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: from "Paul Anderson" at Sep 15, 11 03:41:26 pm Message-ID: > > I don't think the 11/05 needed a DL11. Wasn't there a SLU built into > the CPU (M7260, M7261)? Yes there is a SLU on one of the CPU boards, but in th GT40 it's used for communcaiton with the keyboard. The DL11 is used fro commuication with the host. > There were 4 or 5 backplanes for the 11/05, 11/10, including the GT40 one. I've seen : CPU + 8K core + 4 SLU slots for the 5.25" box CPU + 16K core + 1 SLU slot for the 5.25" box Somthing for a 10.5" box (BA11-K I think), CPU + core, but I can't remember the details CPU + 8K core + VT11 + 1 SPC slot (GT40) -tony From spedraja at ono.com Fri Sep 16 15:00:23 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 22:00:23 +0200 Subject: GT44/46 brochures In-Reply-To: <4E7394A5.1020104@bitsavers.org> References: <4E7394A5.1020104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Thanks. For the TI docs too, of course. Regards S. 2011/9/16 Al Kossow > uploaded now > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/**graphics > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 16 15:51:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 21:51:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Are the HP9100 and HP9810 calcualtors really RPN machines? Message-ID: Subjet: line says it really, but I think I should explain... Are the HP9100 and HP9810 calcualtors really RPN machines? I think not. You ahve 3 registers, called X(Keyboard), Y(Accumulator) and Z(Temporary) which appear to be a stack. But it;s not really as stack IMHO. Entereing a number form the keyboard puts it in X, leaving the other 2 registers unaltered. At no time is there an automatic stack lift (AFAIK). THere are functions to effectively push and drop the stack (if it is one:-)) and to roll it round. Arthmetic operations perfrome something like Y:=Y(OP)X. Again, there is no lift or drop, there is no change to any register other than Y. 1-number operations normally do X:=f(X), at least one does Y:=f(Y), though. Again nothing else is changed, no lift or drop. You can get the user manuals from the Austalian museum site if you want ot read up on this... My (considered?) opinion is that it's certainly a postfix machine in that you enter both numbers into Y and X before doing an arithmetic operation. But becuase of the lack of automatic stack operation, it's not an RPN machine? What about the other 'RPN' desktop machines (friden, etc) Any thoughts? -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Sep 16 17:03:59 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 23:03:59 +0100 Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: <03cc01cc7197$ed48bfb0$c7da3f10$@ntlworld.com> References: <03cc01cc7197$ed48bfb0$c7da3f10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <04f801cc74bc$8b0d9aa0$a128cfe0$@ntlworld.com> Just wondering if anyone has any advice? Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 12 September 2011 23:04 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk > > I want to get the lid off one of my RD54s. Having unscrewed all the 12 torx > screws, the lid still seems to be held down by something. I have probed > around for any screws under the label but only found one curious red plastic > thing. Is there a trick to this or is it going to be just the rubber gasket that is > holding it down? > > Thanks > > Rob From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 16 18:58:11 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:58:11 -0700 Subject: Are the HP9100 and HP9810 calcualtors really RPN machines? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E73E293.1010405@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > My (considered?) opinion is that it's certainly a postfix machine in that > you enter both numbers into Y and X before doing an arithmetic operation. > But becuase of the lack of automatic stack operation, it's not an RPN > machine? Isn't use of postfix operations the defining characteristic of Reverse Polish Notation, since Polish Notation used prefix operations? While the conventional use of postfix operations is based on a stack, it isn't clear that this is a requirement. To implement fully general postfix notation would require an infinitely deep stack, while calculators prior to the HP-28C only had a small fixed number of stack levels. This didn't stop them from being considered postfix or RPN. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 16 18:59:03 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:59:03 -0700 Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: <04f801cc74bc$8b0d9aa0$a128cfe0$@ntlworld.com> References: <03cc01cc7197$ed48bfb0$c7da3f10$@ntlworld.com> <04f801cc74bc$8b0d9aa0$a128cfe0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E73E2C7.6000204@brouhaha.com> Rob Jarratt wrote: > Just wondering if anyone has any advice? Brute force. Or maybe an acetylene torch. From dave at mitton.com Fri Sep 16 22:35:49 2011 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 23:35:49 -0400 Subject: DEC VT330 and LK250s on Ebay Message-ID: <201109170344.p8H3i6sa044085@billy.ezwind.net> I have the following on eBay, ending this weekend VT330 Item # 330613186993 LK250 keyboards: # 330607337643, 330607337630 Hmmm... have to go fix the photos. I am cleaning the basement, I will have a bunch of DEC ephemera and random databooks from the late 1970s, for the cost of shipping. Will list a link some time when I can put together a list. Dave. From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Sat Sep 17 05:37:16 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:37:16 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: More DEC Bad luck. In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:44:40 -0400" <1316177080.4294.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <01O65QDSNFXG000SIW@beyondthepale.ie> > >I powered up my AlphaServer 1000A last night and it looks like it has >problems too. It powers up and the drives & fans spin up. The lcd >showed 'ec.' only once, every other time it is blank. Nothing out of >serial port 1 and the onboard VGA never initializes. > >I tried setting the 'failsafe boot' jumper and I put a blank floppy in >the drive just to see if it would try to read the floppy and it didn't >even try :( > >Any ideas at all? > Check the keyboard. I've had a AS100A that hung completely at test EC and the problem turned out to be a book resting on the keyboard holding down a key. Also check the mouse. If you disconnect both, it should beep and complain but get past the problem. I think test EC also includes onboard VGA but mine don't have that option. Isn't there a jumper to disable onboard VGA? Maybe that might be worth trying in case your onboard VGA is hosed? I vaguely remember putting a graphics card in an Alphaserver 800 that does have onboard VGA but I think doesn't have a jumper to disable it. AFAIR nothing worked until I changed a jumper on the graphics card to disable VGA there. > >It brings me to a question: are the alpha systems inherently fragile? >The dead DECStation is an obvious hardware issue due to (probably) a >leaked capacitor which is understandable due to its age, but the Alphas >are just hosed in a software kind of way. > I've had a fair amount of grief with DEC 3000/600s and Alphaserver 1000As as well as my VAX 4000/100A. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From bdwheele at indiana.edu Sat Sep 17 10:43:46 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:43:46 -0400 Subject: More DEC Bad luck. In-Reply-To: <01O65QDSNFXG000SIW@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01O65QDSNFXG000SIW@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <1316274226.2983.4.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> On Sat, 2011-09-17 at 11:37 +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > >I powered up my AlphaServer 1000A last night and it looks like it has > >problems too. It powers up and the drives & fans spin up. The lcd > >showed 'ec.' only once, every other time it is blank. Nothing out of > >serial port 1 and the onboard VGA never initializes. > > > >I tried setting the 'failsafe boot' jumper and I put a blank floppy in > >the drive just to see if it would try to read the floppy and it didn't > >even try :( > > > >Any ideas at all? > > > > Check the keyboard. I've had a AS100A that hung completely at test EC and > the problem turned out to be a book resting on the keyboard holding down a key. > Also check the mouse. If you disconnect both, it should beep and complain but > get past the problem. > > I think test EC also includes onboard VGA but mine don't have that option. > Isn't there a jumper to disable onboard VGA? Maybe that might be worth trying > in case your onboard VGA is hosed? > > I vaguely remember putting a graphics card in an Alphaserver 800 that does > have onboard VGA but I think doesn't have a jumper to disable it. AFAIR > nothing worked until I changed a jumper on the graphics card to disable VGA > there. > > > > >It brings me to a question: are the alpha systems inherently fragile? > >The dead DECStation is an obvious hardware issue due to (probably) a > >leaked capacitor which is understandable due to its age, but the Alphas > >are just hosed in a software kind of way. > > > > I've had a fair amount of grief with DEC 3000/600s and Alphaserver 1000As > as well as my VAX 4000/100A. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. I've tried several things to no avail: * I disabled onboard vga * there's nothing in the PCI slots now * I reseated the processor board * I unplugged the scsi bus and floppy cable * I even went as far as removing all of the memory and still there's no change: nothing from serial port 1, no beeps, no OCP messages. The memory pull should have at least issued a set of 1-3-3 beeps, right? I verified and the speaker is working. I wasn't able to find able to find a voltage pinout for the power supply to test it. Brian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 17 11:26:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 17:26:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: <04f801cc74bc$8b0d9aa0$a128cfe0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 16, 11 11:03:59 pm Message-ID: > > Just wondering if anyone has any advice? Why do you wnt to do this ('how destructive can it be' :-))? I susme if you remove the obvious screws on top of the HDA, the cover will come off, but it may well be stuck on the gasket. Have you tried cafeully prising round the edges with a screwdriver? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 17 11:35:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 17:35:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Are the HP9100 and HP9810 calcualtors really RPN machines? In-Reply-To: <4E73E293.1010405@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Sep 16, 11 04:58:11 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > My (considered?) opinion is that it's certainly a postfix machine in > that > > you enter both numbers into Y and X before doing an arithmetic > operation. > > But becuase of the lack of automatic stack operation, it's not an RPN > > machine? > > Isn't use of postfix operations the defining characteristic of Reverse > Polish Notation, since Polish Notation used prefix operations? That is exactly my point/question. My view is that while postfix operators are necessary condition for soemthing being RPN, they are not a sufficient one. Suppose we take the simple exression (12+15)*(13+234). In what I think of as 'pure RPN', as used in languages like Forth, Postscript RPL[1], etc, tjat becomes something of the form 12# 15# + 13# 234# + *, where '#' is a symbol to terminate number, often just a space. HP's 4-level stack RPN as used on the HP35,etc is almost 'pure', it has some oddities (regarding the limited stack size ans the 'stack lift'), but it still works genrally as you'd expect. [1] IMHO anyone who claims RPL is not RPN doesn't undertand what RPN actually is! But on the 3 level stack machines, the 9100 and 9810, that expressiob becomes something like : 12 15 + (The result of that is now in Y) 13 234 + (the first result is now in Z, the second result in Y) * It's that exrra that bothers me. I feel that true RPN should automaticallty drop, that results should go on top of stack, and so on. [..] > To implement fully general postfix notation would require an infinitely > deep stack, while calculators prior to the HP-28C only had a small fixed > number of stack levels. This didn't stop them from being considered > postfix or RPN. THey are cerytainly postfix. As I said abovem, I don;t consider them to be totally 'pure' RPN, becuase of the limited stack size, and the fact that sometimes numebr entrie overwrite top-of-stack, sometimes it pushes the stack. I can understnad why this was done, BTW, and genrally, apart from the limit on stack size, a 4-level HP RPN machine behaves as I would expect an RPN machine to behave (the RPL machines _always_ seem to :-)). But the 3-level machines have rather more deviations from what I consider to be RPN. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 17 12:24:54 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 18:24:54 +0100 Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: References: <04f801cc74bc$8b0d9aa0$a128cfe0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 16, 11 11:03:59 pm Message-ID: <005201cc755e$b86abbc0$29403340$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 17 September 2011 17:26 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Opening up an RD54 Disk > > > > > Just wondering if anyone has any advice? > > Why do you wnt to do this ('how destructive can it be' :-))? Very *non*-destructive. I want to see if the heads move when I start the disk up. > > I susme if you remove the obvious screws on top of the HDA, the cover will > come off, but it may well be stuck on the gasket. Have you tried cafeully > prising round the edges with a screwdriver? Yes, removed all the screws and tried prising around the edges, because I assumed the gasket would be pretty well bonded to the casing. I think I have released the whole gasket, but it feels like there is something else holding it down. I will try some more. Regards Rob From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Sep 17 12:31:50 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:31:50 -0700 Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: <005201cc755e$b86abbc0$29403340$@ntlworld.com> References: <04f801cc74bc$8b0d9aa0$a128cfe0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 16, 11 11:03:59 pm <005201cc755e$b86abbc0$29403340$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E74D986.7010509@brouhaha.com> Rob Jarratt wrote: > Very *non*-destructive. I want to see if the heads move when I start the > disk up. And then what do you plan to do with it, once the HDA is contaminated? Or are you doing this in a cleanroom? From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sat Sep 17 12:39:05 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 18:39:05 +0100 Subject: GT44/46 brochures In-Reply-To: <4E7394A5.1020104@bitsavers.org> References: <4E7394A5.1020104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E74DB39.5080200@wickensonline.co.uk> On 16/09/11 19:25, Al Kossow wrote: > uploaded now > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics > Very nice indeed! I especially like the screenshot of lunar lander. Priceless! Regards, Mark. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 17 12:40:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 13:40:43 -0400 Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: <005201cc755e$b86abbc0$29403340$@ntlworld.com> References: <04f801cc74bc$8b0d9aa0$a128cfe0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 16, 11 11:03:59 pm <005201cc755e$b86abbc0$29403340$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E74DB9B.6030106@neurotica.com> On 09/17/2011 01:24 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Yes, removed all the screws and tried prising around the edges, because I > assumed the gasket would be pretty well bonded to the casing. I think I have > released the whole gasket, but it feels like there is something else holding > it down. I will try some more. Are you sure there aren't any other screws underneath the big sticker? Feel around for a "dent". Many drives have one in the middle, like over the spindle axle. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 17 13:07:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:07:49 -0400 Subject: HP, DEC, Olivetti & Apple stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4E712122.906@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4E74E1F5.3020305@neurotica.com> On 09/15/2011 04:41 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I don't think the 11/05 needed a DL11. Wasn't there a SLU built into > the CPU (M7260, M7261)? There's an SLU there, yes, but its baud rate generator is driven by (if I recall correctly) an R/C oscillator and it drifts like crazy. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 17 13:17:31 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 19:17:31 +0100 Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: <4E74D986.7010509@brouhaha.com> References: <04f801cc74bc$8b0d9aa0$a128cfe0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 16, 11 11:03:59 pm <005201cc755e$b86abbc0$29403340$@ntlworld.com> <4E74D986.7010509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <005801cc7566$126e1520$374a3f60$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: 17 September 2011 18:32 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Opening up an RD54 Disk > > Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Very *non*-destructive. I want to see if the heads move when I start the > > disk up. > > And then what do you plan to do with it, once the HDA is contaminated? > > Or are you doing this in a cleanroom? Not in a cleanroom. I have opened up RD53s and got them working again. Hoping (perhaps optimistically) to do the same with this RD54. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 17 13:18:30 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 19:18:30 +0100 Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: <4E74DB9B.6030106@neurotica.com> References: <04f801cc74bc$8b0d9aa0$a128cfe0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 16, 11 11:03:59 pm <005201cc755e$b86abbc0$29403340$@ntlworld.com> <4E74DB9B.6030106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <005901cc7566$35a82df0$a0f889d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 17 September 2011 18:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Opening up an RD54 Disk > > On 09/17/2011 01:24 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Yes, removed all the screws and tried prising around the edges, > > because I assumed the gasket would be pretty well bonded to the > > casing. I think I have released the whole gasket, but it feels like > > there is something else holding it down. I will try some more. > > Are you sure there aren't any other screws underneath the big sticker? > Feel around for a "dent". Many drives have one in the middle, like over the > spindle axle. > I have tried that several times and can't find anything except a strange red plastic plug which comes out very easily. Regards Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 17 13:34:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 19:34:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: <005201cc755e$b86abbc0$29403340$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 17, 11 06:24:54 pm Message-ID: > > > Just wondering if anyone has any advice? > > > > Why do you wnt to do this ('how destructive can it be' :-))? > > Very *non*-destructive. I want to see if the heads move when I start the > disk up. Do you hafwe a clean room? Remember the RD54 is fairly high capacity and that the flying height of the heads is reduced as the bit density is increased. So I would think the RD54 is more susceptable to headcrashes from internal contaminants than many other ST412-interfaced hard drives. Have you done the obvious external tests first, like checking if there's any current trhoguh the positioner coil?If nto, the heads certianly won't be moving, and the fualt is most likely on the logic board. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Sep 17 13:45:52 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:45:52 -0700 Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: <005801cc7566$126e1520$374a3f60$@ntlworld.com> References: <04f801cc74bc$8b0d9aa0$a128cfe0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 16, 11 11:03:59 pm <005201cc755e$b86abbc0$29403340$@ntlworld.com> <4E74D986.7010509@brouhaha.com> <005801cc7566$126e1520$374a3f60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E74EAE0.9000502@brouhaha.com> Rob Jarratt wrote: > Not in a cleanroom. I have opened up RD53s and got them working again. > Hoping (perhaps optimistically) to do the same with this RD54. If you do, and there are any valuable bits on it, copy them off immediately. I've seen people do that and have head crashes very soon afterward. Given how low the flying height of the heads is, it would be amazing to NOT have a head crash at some point thereafter. IIRC, the flying height was about five microns back in those days, which was less than the size of a lot of the particulate matter in normal room air. (In recent drives it can be less than 5 nm.) From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 17 13:56:02 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:56:02 -0700 Subject: mac software on ebay Message-ID: <4E74ED42.2000407@bitsavers.org> this may be worth going after if someone is local http://www.ebay.com/itm/130575280069 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 17 14:34:57 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:34:57 +0100 Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: <4E74EAE0.9000502@brouhaha.com> References: <04f801cc74bc$8b0d9aa0$a128cfe0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 16, 11 11:03:59 pm <005201cc755e$b86abbc0$29403340$@ntlworld.com> <4E74D986.7010509@brouhaha.com> <005801cc7566$126e1520$374a3f60$@ntlworld.com> <4E74EAE0.9000502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <005b01cc7570$e3d66f90$ab834eb0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: 17 September 2011 19:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Opening up an RD54 Disk > > Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Not in a cleanroom. I have opened up RD53s and got them working again. > > Hoping (perhaps optimistically) to do the same with this RD54. > > If you do, and there are any valuable bits on it, copy them off immediately. > I've seen people do that and have head crashes very soon afterward. Given > how low the flying height of the heads is, it would be amazing to NOT have > a head crash at some point thereafter. IIRC, the flying height was about five > microns back in those days, which was less than the size of a lot of the > particulate matter in normal room air. > (In recent drives it can be less than 5 nm.) It is a non-working drive (which is why I want to open it), so I don't have much to lose really. Thanks for the advice nonetheless. Regards Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 17 14:50:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:50:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: <005901cc7566$35a82df0$a0f889d0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 17, 11 07:18:30 pm Message-ID: > I have tried that several times and can't find anything except a strange red > plastic plug which comes out very easily. Isn;t this actually a Maxtor drive? If it's anything like the dead one I've just pulled out of the junk box, there are screws under the label (and also a red plastic breaterh plug, which you cna leave0. The drive I found (an XT1140 IIRC) has 12 screws aroudn the edges of the cover which take a TX8 driver and 2 screws under the label which take a TX10 driver. One of the later is over the spindle, the other over the pivot for the head arms. The latter was _very_ tight and took a lot of shifting! For those who are interested, it's a voice coil positioner (what a suprise) operating a swinging arm assembly carryign the heads. There's aslo a hed locking solenoid. On the flexipring to the heads are 4 custom ICs which look to be 2 pairs of indentical ones,. Obviously head preamplifiers and maybe write drivers too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 17 14:54:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:54:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: <4E74EAE0.9000502@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Sep 17, 11 11:45:52 am Message-ID: > > Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Not in a cleanroom. I have opened up RD53s and got them working again. > > Hoping (perhaps optimistically) to do the same with this RD54. > > If you do, and there are any valuable bits on it, copy them off > immediately. I've seen people do that and have head crashes very soon > afterward. Given how low the flying height of the heads is, it would be You just hope the drive keeps working for long enough to do that! > amazing to NOT have a head crash at some point thereafter. IIRC, the > flying height was about five microns back in those days, which was less > than the size of a lot of the particulate matter in normal room air. > (In recent drives it can be less than 5 nm.) One hundredth of the wavelength of visible light? I am impressed -- very! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 17 14:58:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:58:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: <005b01cc7570$e3d66f90$ab834eb0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 17, 11 08:34:57 pm Message-ID: > It is a non-working drive (which is why I want to open it), so I don't have > much to lose really. Thanks for the advice nonetheless. I beleive the medical profession agree to 'first do no harm', and I think we should follow the same principle. Yes, it's a non-working drive, but that could be due to a lot of things. If the faultr is on the logic board, it may be able to be fixed (there are custom ICs there, there are also a lot od standard parts). But if you open up the HDA, you are going to have a headcrash fairly soon afterwards (unless you happen to have a cleanroom...). It's best ot avoid opening HDAs unless you know you hve to. I know I'd have done a lot more tests on the electronics befroe removing that cover. On the otehr hand, if you've undone the screws roufn the outside and freed the gasket, you've let conaminants in anyway (5 micros is small, it doesn't take much a of a gap to let such particles in!), so you migth was well go the full way and take the top off. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 17 15:40:38 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 16:40:38 -0400 Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E7505C6.7060007@neurotica.com> On 09/17/2011 03:50 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I have tried that several times and can't find anything except a strange red >> plastic plug which comes out very easily. > > Isn;t this actually a Maxtor drive? DEC RD54 == Maxtor XT2190 -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 17 16:00:44 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 17:00:44 -0400 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <4E6D5542.30505@bitsavers.org> References: <4E6D5148.9060603@philpem.me.uk> <4E6D5542.30505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E750A7C.4000109@neurotica.com> On 09/11/2011 08:41 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > I am a big fan of Metcal, especially for surface-mount work. > Once you use one, you will never want to use an ordinary soldering iron > again. Sorry for the late entry here. I have to agree 100%. I've had a Metcal SP-200 for about a decade now, in daily use for about half that time. I've done side-by-side comparisons between it and a Hakko 936, and a Weller W-TCP...They're all good irons, but the Metcal spanks both the Hakko and the Weller. It will go with me to my grave! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 17 16:12:10 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 22:12:10 +0100 Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: References: <005901cc7566$35a82df0$a0f889d0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 17, 11 07:18:30 pm Message-ID: <005f01cc757e$7836ad00$68a40700$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 17 September 2011 20:51 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Opening up an RD54 Disk > > > I have tried that several times and can't find anything except a > > strange red plastic plug which comes out very easily. > > Isn;t this actually a Maxtor drive? If it's anything like the dead one I've just > pulled out of the junk box, there are screws under the label (and also a red > plastic breaterh plug, which you cna leave0. > > The drive I found (an XT1140 IIRC) has 12 screws aroudn the edges of the > cover which take a TX8 driver and 2 screws under the label which take a > TX10 driver. One of the later is over the spindle, the other over the pivot for > the head arms. The latter was _very_ tight and took a lot of shifting! > > For those who are interested, it's a voice coil positioner (what a > suprise) operating a swinging arm assembly carryign the heads. There's aslo > a hed locking solenoid. On the flexipring to the heads are 4 custom ICs which > look to be 2 pairs of indentical ones,. Obviously head preamplifiers and > maybe write drivers too. > > > -tony Yes, that matches exactly what I found. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 17 16:15:26 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 22:15:26 +0100 Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: References: <005b01cc7570$e3d66f90$ab834eb0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 17, 11 08:34:57 pm Message-ID: <006001cc757e$ecf303a0$c6d90ae0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 17 September 2011 20:59 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Opening up an RD54 Disk > > > It is a non-working drive (which is why I want to open it), so I don't > > have much to lose really. Thanks for the advice nonetheless. > > I beleive the medical profession agree to 'first do no harm', and I think we > should follow the same principle. > > Yes, it's a non-working drive, but that could be due to a lot of things. > If the faultr is on the logic board, it may be able to be fixed (there are > custom ICs there, there are also a lot od standard parts). But if you open up > the HDA, you are going to have a headcrash fairly soon afterwards (unless > you happen to have a cleanroom...). > > It's best ot avoid opening HDAs unless you know you hve to. I know I'd have > done a lot more tests on the electronics befroe removing that cover. > On the otehr hand, if you've undone the screws roufn the outside and freed > the gasket, you've let conaminants in anyway (5 micros is small, it doesn't > take much a of a gap to let such particles in!), so you migth was well go the > full way and take the top off. > > -tony I suspect you are right (as ever) and will probably avoid removing the lid on my other non-working ones. I don't think there is a printset though to help with diagnosis, and I suspect that diagnosis here is going to need expensive equipment I don't have to find a faulty component. Regards Rob From spedraja at ono.com Sat Sep 17 17:45:14 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 00:45:14 +0200 Subject: IBM 3174-90R Message-ID: Hello. I should like to get one picture or photo of one IBM 3174 90R (Tokenway). Someone here has worked with one of these ? Thanks Sergio From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 17 19:06:28 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 17:06:28 -0700 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <4E750A7C.4000109@neurotica.com> References: <4E6D5148.9060603@philpem.me.uk>, <4E6D5542.30505@bitsavers.org>, <4E750A7C.4000109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E74D394.4824.21359C1@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Sep 2011 at 17:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > Sorry for the late entry here. I have to agree 100%. I've had a > Metcal SP-200 for about a decade now, in daily use for about half that > time. I've done side-by-side comparisons between it and a Hakko 936, > and a Weller W-TCP...They're all good irons, but the Metcal spanks > both the Hakko and the Weller. It will go with me to my grave! So, does anyone use the similarly-priced and featured JBC soldering stations? How about Edsyn? --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Sat Sep 17 20:00:38 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:00:38 -0500 Subject: GT44/46 brochures In-Reply-To: <4E7394A5.1020104@bitsavers.org> References: <4E7394A5.1020104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Very nice Al. Thanks, Paul On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > uploaded now > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics > > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Sep 17 20:28:44 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:28:44 -0500 Subject: More DEC Bad luck. In-Reply-To: <1316177080.4294.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1316177080.4294.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: Hi Brian, I have a several 5000/125,133, 200,etc if you need a complete unit or a parts unit. I also have several 3100's, but have a friend looking for a complete 31/90 if you want to get rid of yours. I'm next door in Illinois. Thanks, Paul On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > I'm convinced that my house was built over an Indian burial ground. ?Or > it was owned by someone heavily invested in everything but DEC... > > I powered up my AlphaServer 1000A last night and it looks like it has > problems too. ?It powers up and the drives & fans spin up. ?The lcd > showed 'ec.' only once, every other time it is blank. ?Nothing out of > serial port 1 and the onboard VGA never initializes. > > I tried setting the 'failsafe boot' jumper and I put a blank floppy in > the drive just to see if it would try to read the floppy and it didn't > even try :( > > Any ideas at all? > > So now it looks like both of my alphas are shot (the PWS500au never > initializes video, does anything with serial, and turns off all diag > lights) and my DECStation 5000/120 has a bad power supply. > > On the plus side, all of my terminals still work and both of my vaxes > (MicroVAX 3100/90 and VAXStation 4000/90) boot to VMS without > problems. > > It brings me to a question: ?are the alpha systems inherently fragile? > The dead DECStation is an obvious hardware issue due to (probably) a > leaked capacitor which is understandable due to its age, but the Alphas > are just hosed in a software kind of way. > > Brian > > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Sep 17 20:32:51 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 20:32:51 -0500 Subject: More DEC Bad luck. In-Reply-To: References: <1316177080.4294.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: Hi Zane, Do you want to get rid of the 90? Paul On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 9:14 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:44 AM -0400 9/16/11, Brian Wheeler wrote: >> >> It brings me to a question: ?are the alpha systems inherently fragile? >> The dead DECStation is an obvious hardware issue due to (probably) a >> leaked capacitor which is understandable due to its age, but the Alphas >> are just hosed in a software kind of way. > > I ran my PWS 433au for several years with a dead PCI slot. ?In fact before I > gave up on it in favor of an XP1000, I believe something else had died. > ?That actaully impressed me. > > My XP1000/667's powersupply died, I had to move the CPU over the the > XP1000/500. > > At the same time, don't get me started on VAXstation 4000's. ?I have a 60, a > 90, and a VLC. ?All three have issues, the 90 won't boot, the 60 is flakey, > and the VLC has a bad powersupply. > > Honestly I need to get things setup so I can powerup and check all my DEC > hardware, it's been months since I booted any of it. :-( ?I simply don't > have the time anymore, and I can't afford to keep a VAX and Alpha running > 24/7. > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| OpenVMS Enthusiast ? ? ? ? | > | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| Photographer ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? My flickr Photostream ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | > | ? ? ? ? ?http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ ? ? ? ? ? | > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 17 21:01:03 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 22:01:03 -0400 Subject: Data I/O 2900 - How good is it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E7550DF.7040308@neurotica.com> On 09/08/2011 11:41 AM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > The problem with the Unisite is that it needs massive quantities of pin > driver cards (17 if memory serves). And the Unisite I own only has ONE. > > :={ Very odd. I don't think I've ever seen one that wasn't fully-populated with pin driver cards. I wonder if yours was raped for spares. In any case, those cards aren't tough to find; they show up on eBay all the time, and picking up a parts unit is also a good option. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 17 21:12:21 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 22:12:21 -0400 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: <20110913204445.GA19324@RawFedDogs.net> References: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> <20110913204445.GA19324@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <4E755385.9010202@neurotica.com> On 09/13/2011 04:44 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > When I first started in the shop I currently work in my work e-mail > address was: > > DOKPM0 at CFLMVS.CentralFreight.com > > I kinda miss that one. It was for TAO e-mail accessed via CICS on an > IBM mainframe. Even though the domain contains MVS we were actually > running OS/390 by the time I got the above address, and we're > currently running z/OS. ...which of course are all basically different generations of MVS! ;) (not referring to CICS, just MVS, OS/390, and z/OS) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RichA at vulcan.com Sat Sep 17 23:12:54 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:12:54 -0700 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: <4E755385.9010202@neurotica.com> References: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> <20110913204445.GA19324@RawFedDogs.net> <4E755385.9010202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: Dave McGuire > Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 7:12 PM > On 09/13/2011 04:44 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: >> IBM mainframe. Even though the domain contains MVS we were actually >> running OS/390 by the time I got the above address, and we're >> currently running z/OS. > ...which of course are all basically different generations of MVS! ;) > (not referring to CICS, just MVS, OS/390, and z/OS) Sort of, if you discount the 24-bit vs. 31-bit addressing of the hardware, or the 64-bit non-360 architecture of the hardware running z/OS... Just feeling ornery this evening... Rich Alderson (no .sig, on vacation) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 17 23:33:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 00:33:57 -0400 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: References: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> <20110913204445.GA19324@RawFedDogs.net> <4E755385.9010202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E7574B5.1020109@neurotica.com> On 09/18/2011 12:12 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> IBM mainframe. Even though the domain contains MVS we were actually >>> running OS/390 by the time I got the above address, and we're >>> currently running z/OS. > >> ...which of course are all basically different generations of MVS! ;) >> (not referring to CICS, just MVS, OS/390, and z/OS) > > Sort of, if you discount the 24-bit vs. 31-bit addressing of the hardware, > or the 64-bit non-360 architecture of the hardware running z/OS... There are many such variations in the OS world. For example, Solaris is still Solaris whether it's running on a 32-bit SPARC or a 64-bit SPARC. (or a 32- or 64-bit x86, for that matter) And is it not the case that the 64-bit z/Series architecture is basically an extension of the 31-bit (addressing) ESA/390 architecture? > Just feeling ornery this evening... Apparently! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doc at vaxen.net Sun Sep 18 04:51:14 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 04:51:14 -0500 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else? In-Reply-To: <4E74D394.4824.21359C1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E6D5148.9060603@philpem.me.uk>, <4E6D5542.30505@bitsavers.org>, <4E750A7C.4000109@neurotica.com> <4E74D394.4824.21359C1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E75BF12.5080004@vaxen.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Sep 2011 at 17:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Sorry for the late entry here. I have to agree 100%. I've had a >> Metcal SP-200 for about a decade now, in daily use for about half that >> time. I've done side-by-side comparisons between it and a Hakko 936, >> and a Weller W-TCP...They're all good irons, but the Metcal spanks >> both the Hakko and the Weller. It will go with me to my grave! > > So, does anyone use the similarly-priced and featured JBC soldering > stations? How about Edsyn? A friend of mine just replaced his Hakko 939 with a JBC, although I don't remember the model number, and says it's the best iron he's ever used. Also, the guy who does motherboard repairs and mods at work uses a JBC, also model unknown. Anything he can't do goes into the baller & oven. I've used it a few times and it's very, very nice. I'd like to beat the dead horse once more, though - I do love my Metcal SP-200. Tips are cheap and easy to come by, and it just works, joint after joint after joint. I think I paid a total of $180 for mine, including 4 new tips, buying it a piece at a time off ebay in 2006. Doc From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Sat Sep 17 12:03:13 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 18:03:13 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: More DEC Bad luck. In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:43:46 -0400" <1316274226.2983.4.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> References: <01O65QDSNFXG000SIW@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01O66361970C000R32@beyondthepale.ie> > >I've tried several things to no avail: >* I disabled onboard vga >* there's nothing in the PCI slots now >* I reseated the processor board That would have been my next advice. I have found the position of the processor board to be very critical at times. >* I unplugged the scsi bus and floppy cable >* I even went as far as removing all of the memory > >and still there's no change: nothing from serial port 1, no beeps, no >OCP messages. The memory pull should have at least issued a set of >1-3-3 beeps, right? I verified and the speaker is working. > Yes. I would expect it to beep when there is no memory. It seems that the B-Cache on the processor board can be prone to failure. I've had this but I can't quite recall what the symptoms were. I will check to see if I have any notes. The B-Cache can be disabled by changing a jumper on the processor board and the machine will run without it at reduced performance. The location of the jumper varies depending on what processor you have. > >I wasn't able to find able to find a voltage pinout for the power supply >to test it. > I think I took note of the voltages on the power supply connectors when I was diagnosing a recent problem on mine. I will see if I can find my notes. (The power supply is uses significant amounts of power even when the machine is switched off, so unplug when not in use.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Sat Sep 17 16:07:23 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 22:07:23 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: More DEC Bad luck. In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:43:46 -0400" <1316274226.2983.4.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> References: <01O65QDSNFXG000SIW@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01O66CPTJQOK000SPQ@beyondthepale.ie> > >I wasn't able to find able to find a voltage pinout for the power supply >to test it. > Here are the notes I made on the power supply connectors in my Alphaserver 1000A which has a single power supply in the lower bay which I called PSU0. The readings were taken with a cheap and cheerful analogue multimeter which may be reading a little on the high side. The location of pin 1 is marked on the board but I couldn't tell whether the numbers run up and down or across. I assumed up and down, like an IDC connector. J21 power connector on main board: PSU Main board -------- ---------- 1 (purple) GND GND 2 (black) Output? Input? -7.7V when running 3 (black) GND GND 4 (black) GND at PSU0 Connected PSU detect? 5 (blue) Output? Input? +12V when running 6 (black) PSU1 only Connected +4.2V when running PSU detect? 7 (yellow) Output? Input? -12V when running 8 (red) Output Input +5V at all times 9 (red) Output? Input? +5.1V when running 10 (grey) Output? Input? -5V when running 11 (black) Connected GND 12 (orange) Output? Input? +3.5V when running 13 (white) Input? Output? Normally 0V. Pulse high to trip PSU. 14 (black) Connected GND 15 (white) PSU0 only +4.5V after running. Power good? 16 (white) Input Output Ground to enable PSU power on 17 (white) PSU1 only 0V at all times? Power good? J19 power connector on main board: All red leads +5.1V All black leads 0V J20 power connector on main board: All orange leads +3.5V All black leads 0V Regards, Peter Coghlan. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 18 13:20:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 19:20:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Opening up an RD54 Diskt In-Reply-To: <005f01cc757e$7836ad00$68a40700$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 17, 11 10:12:10 pm Message-ID: > Yes, that matches exactly what I found. Ah, so you did finally get it open :-) I found the fact that the hidden screws took a larger Torx driver ot be particualry evil. A XT8 will fit, and will seem to engage, but it'll strip the heads, making them even harder to remove. I don't know how similar the XT1140 and XT2190 are, but on the old XT1140 I've hard apart, there ar 3 flexiprints from the HDA to the logic PCB. The wide one is almost certainly th head signals, the other 2 are probably the spindel motoe and the positioner (and lock solenoid). What I would do next, since you have an open HDA and nothign to lose on that drive is to trace (using an low-resistnace ohmmeter the positioner coil and lock solaiod conenctiosb back to the plugs that connct to the logic PCB. Then you vcan look at those signasl on an unopenend drive to see if the heads should be moving. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 18 13:28:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 19:28:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Opening up an RD54 Disk In-Reply-To: <006001cc757e$ecf303a0$c6d90ae0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 17, 11 10:15:26 pm Message-ID: > I suspect you are right (as ever) and will probably avoid removing the lid > on my other non-working ones. I don't think there is a printset though to That; probably a good idea, at least for the momnet. However, as I said in my otehr message, I'd now try to sxtract hardware info, such as pinouts, from the opened HDA to assist in fault-finding on the other drives. > help with diagnosis, and I suspect that diagnosis here is going to need I have neve seen a printset for any of the RDxx drives :-( I don't know if Maxtor ever released a service manual with schematics, some hard drive manufactuered did at one time (they treat the HDA and not being field-repairable, but include scheamtics, etc of the PCBs outside the HDA), others didn't. > expensive equipment I don't have to find a faulty component. Maybe, maybe not... Here's what I'd : >From the open HDA, find the conections on the logic board connectors for the lock solenoid and the positioner coil Power up an unopend drive and see if you can hear the lock solenoid operating. Check it's getting voltage beteween its conenctions. Check the voltage across the positioner coil connections. Should the heads be mocvig? You don;'t need much more than a multimeter to do that. Lookign at the XT1140 logic board (and I rememebr seeing at least 2 versiosn of that over the years), there's a row of TO22 power drives (MOSFETs? I don't think they're bipolar transistors) which I think are the spindle motor drivers,. There's also a couple of what look like audio amplifer ICs (DIL packages with a heatsink tab on each side) which I think form a full-H driver for the positionr coil. If the positioner is not gietting any drive, you might start looking aroudn the latter. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 18 17:52:42 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 23:52:42 +0100 Subject: WTD: 0.156in 2x10 or 1x10 edge connector for Motorola/Displaytek M1000-355 CRT Message-ID: <4E76763A.1040401@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I just picked up a Motorola M1000-355 CRT monitor (5in diagonal open-frame industrial "thing", circa Jan 1987 so almost as old as I am!) at the hamfest today.. Problem is, I don't have a suitable mating connector for the card edge connector... It's a 10-pin single-row card edge connector, with a 0.156in pin pitch, although I suspect a dual-row (20 pins total, 10x2 layout) would work fine too. These are listed as "US stock only" or "Discontinued, obsolete" by every supplier I've tried... Does anyone have one squirrelled away in a box somewhere which I could buy or have (he says with a cheeky grin) ? Or possibly a lead on a source for one or two of these, ideally with keypins (but the latter isn't essential)? I'd also rather like a copy of the datasheet for the monitor module if anyone has it... I have a pinout (it's the standard 10pin pinout as posted by Tony Duell quite a while ago -- IIRC either the Kaypro or Osborne monitor uses the same pinout) and a sneaking suspicion that it's CGA-spec, but no hard proof. I do know that it pulls 12V DC at about an amp -- the first value is printed on the PCB, the second was provided by the meter on my bench supply! Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Sep 18 20:34:25 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 18:34:25 -0700 Subject: WTD: 0.156in 2x10 or 1x10 edge connector for Motorola/Displaytek M1000-355 CRT In-Reply-To: <4E76763A.1040401@philpem.me.uk> References: <4E76763A.1040401@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Would an EDAC 306-010-500-102 work? They are in stock at Mouser and Digi-Key in the US for around $6, but that might not help you. I have a similar open frame monitor that might have the same 10 position card edge connector. I've never gotten around to trying to hook it up. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 18 21:11:11 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 19:11:11 -0700 Subject: WTD: 0.156in 2x10 or 1x10 edge connector for Motorola/Displaytek M1000-355 CRT In-Reply-To: <4E76763A.1040401@philpem.me.uk> References: <4E76763A.1040401@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4E76424F.7966.6A1AE7@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Sep 2011 at 23:52, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I just picked up a Motorola M1000-355 CRT monitor (5in diagonal > open-frame industrial "thing", circa Jan 1987 so almost as old as I > am!) at the hamfest today.. Problem is, I don't have a suitable mating > connector for the card edge connector... Those connectors were very common for kit monitors. Do you have a shop near you that sells parts for arcade games? They should certainly have one of those. --Chuck From spedraja at ono.com Mon Sep 19 01:19:55 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 08:19:55 +0200 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course Message-ID: Just arrived to PLATO World, I've encountered this while lurking: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1983-Control-Data-CDC-PLATO-Pascal-CBE-CAI-Courseware-8-Floppy-Disk-Set-/290611568632?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a9cc9ff8 Regards SPc. From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Sep 19 01:28:25 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 06:28:25 +0000 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course Message-ID: <526357906-1316413702-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1942202992-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> Now all you need is a couple hundred square feet of raised floor, 20 tons of A/C, some 3 phase, and a nice CDC box! ------Original Message------ From: SPC Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course Sent: 19 Sep 2011 06:19 Just arrived to PLATO World, I've encountered this while lurking: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1983-Control-Data-CDC-PLATO-Pascal-CBE-CAI-Courseware-8-Floppy-Disk-Set-/290611568632?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a9cc9ff8 Regards SPc. From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 01:32:31 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 01:32:31 -0500 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 1:19 AM, SPC wrote: > Just arrived to PLATO World, I've encountered this while lurking: > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1983-Control-Data-CDC-PLATO-Pascal-CBE-CAI-Courseware-8-Floppy-Disk-Set-/290611568632?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a9cc9ff8 I have purchased PLATO disks from this seller before. He is a reliable seller, packages well and knows much of PLATO. I might go for these disks as well, if I can figure out if I have them already or not :) My concern is archiving - I don't have a way to read these 8" floppies and image them. Is anyone out there (Al K?) doing so? If so, as it is with documents, I'd defer to that party as long as they are going to make their images/scans public. -- jht From brain at jbrain.com Mon Sep 19 01:46:48 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 01:46:48 -0500 Subject: PLATO for C64 (was: MicroPLATO Pascal Course) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E76E558.4060101@jbrain.com> This reminds me, when I was attending UIUC in 89-93, PLATO was still in use, and someone (not sure who) had created a PLATO emulator for the C64. It did everything, as I recall, and connected to the PLATO system using the UIUC dialup network (333-something, but time has erased it from memory... You could access all of the machines from that dialup system) It used 1200 bps as I recall, and worked well. Sadly, I cannot find the disk with the SW any more. I wish I could, as I think the PLATO archivers would want a copy. I don't know if other 8-bit machines had ports of the emu. Jim From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 02:04:38 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 02:04:38 -0500 Subject: PLATO for C64 (was: MicroPLATO Pascal Course) In-Reply-To: <4E76E558.4060101@jbrain.com> References: <4E76E558.4060101@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 1:46 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > This reminds me, when I was attending UIUC in 89-93, PLATO was still in use, > and someone (not sure who) had created a PLATO emulator for the C64. ?It did > everything, as I recall, and connected to the PLATO system using the UIUC > dialup network (333-something, but time has erased it from memory... You > could access all of the machines from that dialup system) ?It used 1200 bps > as I recall, and worked well. > > Sadly, I cannot find the disk with the SW any more. ?I wish I could, as I > think the PLATO archivers would want a copy. ?I don't know if other 8-bit > machines had ports of the emu. Wow...I have never heard of this. Would love to find a copy as well. It did exist for some 8-bit systems, as I have the PLATO cartridge for the Atari 400/800 series. Have never tried it out :( I'd bet that if one had the necessary serial adapters on the Atari, one could hook up to Cyber1 with it. That would be a real hoot. Way cool that you were at UIUC at the same time I (briefly) was. I dialed into the dorms (remember what the terminal servers were named after?) with my Amiga 500. Somewhere in the vast stacks, I have the "Computing at UIUC" book given out to students from the CSO. It probably lists those dial-in numbers, along with many artifacts of early-90s computing. I'll scan it if I ever find it... -- jht From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 02:07:05 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 02:07:05 -0500 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course In-Reply-To: <526357906-1316413702-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1942202992-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <526357906-1316413702-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1942202992-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 1:28 AM, Vintage Coder wrote: > Now all you need is a couple hundred square feet of raised floor, 20 tons of A/C, some 3 phase, and a nice CDC box! There are CDC machines in running shape that could host a PLATO installation. Some are owned by members of this list :) Fortunately for the rest of us, there is CYBER1, running real PLATO (not sure what the back-end was called, if not just "PLATO") under an emulated CDC. -- jht From spedraja at ono.com Mon Sep 19 02:16:27 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 09:16:27 +0200 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mmm... Perhaps a PC system with one 8" inch. floppy unit connected (I think that there was some information available about this matter in www.dbit.comor in Dave Dunfield's site). Later, one system with DTCyber and PLATO (as you can see in www.cyber1.org). But don't think this is the case. In the description of the item appears one reference to MicroPLATO. And the almost unique reference that I've encountered in the Internet is this one, in the Wikipedia article dedicated to PLATO: "An attempt to mass-market the PLATO system was introduced in 1980 as Micro-PLATO, which ran the basic TUTORsystem on a CDC "Viking-721" terminal and various home computers. Versions were built for the Texas Instruments TI-99/4A, Atari 8-bit family , Zenith Z-100 and, later, Radio Shack TRS-80 and IBM Personal Computer " Regards SPc. 2011/9/19 Jason T > > > > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1983-Control-Data-CDC-PLATO-Pascal-CBE-CAI-Courseware-8-Floppy-Disk-Set-/290611568632?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a9cc9ff8 > > [...] > I might go for these disks as well, if I can figure out if I have them > already or not :) My concern is archiving - I don't have a way to > read these 8" floppies and image them. Is anyone out there (Al K?) > doing so? If so, as it is with documents, I'd defer to that party as > long as they are going to make their images/scans public. > > From spedraja at ono.com Mon Sep 19 02:20:08 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 09:20:08 +0200 Subject: PLATO for C64 (was: MicroPLATO Pascal Course) In-Reply-To: <4E76E558.4060101@jbrain.com> References: <4E76E558.4060101@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Interesting. In the original thread of this message I pasted this excerpt from the Wikipedia articla about PLATO: "An attempt to mass-market the PLATO system was introduced in 1980 as Micro-PLATO, which ran the basic TUTORsystem on a CDC "Viking-721" terminal and various home computers. Versions were built for the Texas Instruments TI-99/4A, Atari 8-bit family , Zenith Z-100 and, later, Radio Shack TRS-80 and IBM Personal Computer " Would you like to expand this paragraph ? If you are sure about this matter, I think that would be a good idea to indicate it there. Or some kind of reference. Regards SPc. 2011/9/19 Jim Brain > This reminds me, when I was attending UIUC in 89-93, PLATO was still in > use, and someone (not sure who) had created a PLATO emulator for the C64. > It did everything, as I recall, and connected to the PLATO system using the > UIUC dialup network (333-something, but time has erased it from memory... > You could access all of the machines from that dialup system) It used 1200 > bps as I recall, and worked well. > > Sadly, I cannot find the disk with the SW any more. I wish I could, as I > think the PLATO archivers would want a copy. I don't know if other 8-bit > machines had ports of the emu. > > Jim > > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 02:40:59 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 02:40:59 -0500 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 2:16 AM, SPC wrote: > Mmm... Perhaps a PC system with one 8" inch. floppy unit connected (I think > that there was some information available about this matter in > www.dbit.comor in Dave Dunfield's site). Yep, Dave's utility is indispensable. I have no idea what format those MicroPLATO floppies may be, however. I thought I remember either Al K or Richard had successfully imaged some. Now someone needs to write an emulator to run MicroPLATO (or was it called MicroTutor?) -j From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Sep 19 02:55:24 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 07:55:24 +0000 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course Message-ID: <680809916-1316418921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-120484661-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> Amazing, I didn't realize any were still running. Last time I saw PLATO was in the 1970s. The terminals were touch screens, they blew everyone's minds. From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Sep 19 08:01:02 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 09:01:02 -0400 Subject: More DEC Bad luck. In-Reply-To: <01O66CPTJQOK000SPQ@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01O65QDSNFXG000SIW@beyondthepale.ie> <01O66CPTJQOK000SPQ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <1316437263.14247.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> I ran my meter across all of them and I'm getting the same voltages you did. Any other ideas on what could be this beastie's problem? Its looking more an more like something I'm not going to be able to work around. Brian On Sat, 2011-09-17 at 22:07 +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > >I wasn't able to find able to find a voltage pinout for the power supply > >to test it. > > > > Here are the notes I made on the power supply connectors in my Alphaserver 1000A > which has a single power supply in the lower bay which I called PSU0. > > The readings were taken with a cheap and cheerful analogue multimeter which may > be reading a little on the high side. > > The location of pin 1 is marked on the board but I couldn't tell whether the > numbers run up and down or across. I assumed up and down, like an IDC connector. > > J21 power connector on main board: > > PSU Main board > -------- ---------- > 1 (purple) GND GND > 2 (black) Output? Input? -7.7V when running > 3 (black) GND GND > 4 (black) GND at PSU0 Connected PSU detect? > 5 (blue) Output? Input? +12V when running > 6 (black) PSU1 only Connected +4.2V when running PSU detect? > 7 (yellow) Output? Input? -12V when running > 8 (red) Output Input +5V at all times > 9 (red) Output? Input? +5.1V when running > 10 (grey) Output? Input? -5V when running > 11 (black) Connected GND > 12 (orange) Output? Input? +3.5V when running > 13 (white) Input? Output? Normally 0V. Pulse high to trip PSU. > 14 (black) Connected GND > 15 (white) PSU0 only +4.5V after running. Power good? > 16 (white) Input Output Ground to enable PSU power on > 17 (white) PSU1 only 0V at all times? Power good? > > J19 power connector on main board: > > All red leads +5.1V > All black leads 0V > > J20 power connector on main board: > > All orange leads +3.5V > All black leads 0V > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 19 09:19:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 07:19:32 -0700 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course In-Reply-To: <680809916-1316418921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-120484661-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <680809916-1316418921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-120484661-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <4E76ED04.19097.27E3F9@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Sep 2011 at 7:55, Vintage Coder wrote: > Amazing, I didn't realize any were still running. Last time I saw > PLATO was in the 1970s. The terminals were touch screens, they blew .> > everyone's minds. . With plasma screens yet. I understood that the screen was much of the cost of one of those terminals. It also ran at a weird (even for the day) comms rate. CDC had a difficult time marketing the thing. I remember one year at NCC, the folks at the CDC booth looking bored with the attendees sort of shuffling through. I noted that they had a PLATO terminal, so I asked one of the booth jockeys if I could try it. I brought up Airfight and immediately collected a crowd. The folks at the booth were a little upset at the idea of playing a game, when they were tasked with selling "serious" stuff and eventually they put a stop to it. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. It must have been around 1976, as I remember looking at the then-new IBM 5100 and wondering how anyone could stare at that tiny screen for more than 5 minutes at a time. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 19 09:20:25 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 07:20:25 -0700 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4E76ED39.8216.28B3CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Sep 2011 at 2:40, Jason T wrote: > Yep, Dave's utility is indispensable. I have no idea what format > those MicroPLATO floppies may be, however. I thought I remember > either Al K or Richard had successfully imaged some. CDC 110 perhaps? --Chuck From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Sep 19 11:58:28 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 16:58:28 +0000 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course In-Reply-To: <4E76ED04.19097.27E3F9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201109191658.p8JGwfix009458@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com> >> Amazing, I didn't realize any were still running. Last time I saw >> PLATO was in the 1970s. The terminals were touch screens, they blew .> >> everyone's minds. . >> > With plasma screens yet. I understood that the screen was much of the > cost of one of those terminals. No doubt! I would imagine those screens cost more than many small machines available at the time. > CDC had a difficult time marketing the thing. I remember one year at > NCC, the folks at the CDC booth looking bored with the attendees sort of > shuffling through. I noted that they had a PLATO terminal, so I asked > one of the booth jockeys if I could try it. I brought up Airfight and > immediately collected a crowd. The folks at the booth were a little > upset at the idea of playing a game, when they were tasked with selling > "serious" stuff and eventually they put a stop to it. > > Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. That's a good story. They really shanked that one, they probably should have offered you a job on the spot. The PLATO system I saw was at a university. I don't know whether it was donated or they bought it "with your tax dollars". They had a bunch of those touch screen terminals lined up on conference tables. As I remember, it wasn't even in the data center but the Social Sciences building and I'm almost certain the CDC machine wasn't in the data center either. That was an expensive setup to have stuff spread out all over the campus like that. I don't know what they used it for aside from some AI research. I guess stuff like that was always a hard sell. I wonder how many 4051 Tektronix sold by demoing that old golf game. It was a hoot and probably more of an eyecatcher than whatever the salesmen used. Sorry if this is a duplicate, I emailed earlier but did not see it posted. From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon Sep 19 10:00:32 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:00:32 +0000 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course In-Reply-To: <4E76ED04.19097.27E3F9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201109191644.p8JGggbU024923@ims-m13.mx.aol.com> >> Amazing, I didn't realize any were still running. Last time I saw >> PLATO was in the 1970s. The terminals were touch screens, they blew .> >> everyone's minds. . >> > With plasma screens yet. I understood that the screen was much of the > cost of one of those terminals. No doubt! It probably cost more than some entire small machines. > CDC had a difficult time marketing the thing. The one place I saw them was a university, and if I remember right, it wasn't even in the data center but in the Social Sciences building. I believe the CDC machine itself was also over there. I guess they probably got the whole thing on an academic grant, but they may have paid for it "with your tax dollars". Either way, the stuff must have cost a fortune and PLATO seemed to be targeted at academic settings. > I remember one year at NCC, the folks at the CDC booth looking bored with > the attendees sort of shuffling through. I noted that they had a PLATO > terminal, so I asked one of the booth jockeys if I could try it. I > brought up Airfight and immediately collected a crowd. The folks at the > booth were a little upset at the idea of playing a game, when they were > tasked with selling "serious" stuff and eventually they put a stop to it. > > Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. That's a good story. What a missed opportunity for those guys. They should have hired you on the spot. I imagine Tekronix sold a lot of 4051s by demoing that old golf game, it was superb. Sometimes simple stuff like that gets a lot more attention than more arcane things. To sell 'em you first have to get their attention. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 19 12:31:19 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 10:31:19 -0700 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E777C67.5060909@bitsavers.org> On 9/18/11 11:32 PM, Jason T wrote: > My concern is archiving - I don't have a way to > read these 8" floppies and image them. Is anyone out there (Al K?) > doing so? Yes. There is an issue which may be copy protection on one of the tracks. I've imaged a few sets, and they all fail on the same track in the middle. These 8" disks are for the stand-alone terminal (CDC 110), aren't they? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 19 12:35:30 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 10:35:30 -0700 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course In-Reply-To: <4E76ED39.8216.28B3CC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4E76ED39.8216.28B3CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E777D62.1010400@bitsavers.org> On 9/19/11 7:20 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Sep 2011 at 2:40, Jason T wrote: > >> Yep, Dave's utility is indispensable. I have no idea what format >> those MicroPLATO floppies may be, however. I thought I remember >> either Al K or Richard had successfully imaged some. > > CDC 110 perhaps? > yes, which also could run CP/M, as you know I bought a 721 from the same guy, and forgot to bid on the companion floppy unit, which he apparently now doesn't want to sell. The 721 has a bad power supply, so I dumped the firmware and scanned the pcb http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/terminal/721/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 19 12:36:50 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 10:36:50 -0700 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course In-Reply-To: <201109191644.p8JGggbU024923@ims-m13.mx.aol.com> References: <201109191644.p8JGggbU024923@ims-m13.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E777DB2.8000902@bitsavers.org> On 9/19/11 8:00 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > That's a good story. What a missed opportunity for those guys. They should > have hired you on the spot. I imagine Tekronix sold a lot of 4051s by > demoing that old golf game, it was superb. A lot of GT-40's were sold because of Lunar Lander. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 19 13:19:05 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 11:19:05 -0700 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course In-Reply-To: <201109191658.p8JGwfix009458@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com> References: <4E76ED04.19097.27E3F9@cclist.sydex.com>, <201109191658.p8JGwfix009458@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E772529.14840.306C5C@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Sep 2011 at 16:58, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > That's a good story. They really shanked that one, they probably > should have offered you a job on the spot. That wouldn't have set well--I'd left CDC not six months earlier. What was remarkable about Airfight is that you were part of a "squadron" made up of other (remote) PLATO users and could send and receive messages during the progress of the game. Very forward- thinking for the day and completely missed by most of the mavens. I looked it up--PLATO used a comm link running at 1260 bps. That was slower even than the INTERCOM linkups, which IIRC, ran at something like 2000 bps. Even with the money poured into PLATO, it was less of a financial success than Ticketron (another CDC operation that arose out of the CDC-IBM litigation of the late 1960s. > The PLATO system I saw was at a university. I don't know whether it > was donated or they bought it "with your tax dollars". One tidbit is that PLATO ran under the KRONOS operating system. KRONOS was a derivative of MACE, an operating system written mostly by Dave Callender and Greg Mansfield--mostly late night on the QA floor at Arden Hills. Strictly a bootleg project, initially called MACE (Mansfield's Answer to Customer Engineering). The "official" CDC operating system for the 6000 series was SCOPE, which was heavily oriented toward batch processing. What followed was a product war of sorts within the company. SCOPE and KRONOS were fairly compatible on the user program level, but each handled internal operations quite differently. SCOPE was descended from COS, the Chippewa Operating System and could be run on the least- updated CPUs around. It was almost entirely resident in the PPUs. KRONOS, being a later system, used some of the later hardware enhancements and had a sizeable CPU component. Because of this, it could respond to an external request faster. KRONOS became popular among university customers who tended to use remote job entry and real-time terminals, while data center-type operations made use of SCOPE. Eventually, a move to consolidate both operating systems was made. Initially, SCOPE became known as NOS-BE (Network Operating System, Batch Environment), while KRONOS became simply NOS. While the final product was known as NOS, it really had components from both OS. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 19 13:14:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 19:14:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: WTD: 0.156in 2x10 or 1x10 edge connector for Motorola/Displaytek In-Reply-To: <4E76763A.1040401@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 18, 11 11:52:42 pm Message-ID: > > Hi guys, > > I just picked up a Motorola M1000-355 CRT monitor (5in diagonal > open-frame industrial "thing", circa Jan 1987 so almost as old as I am!) > at the hamfest today.. Problem is, I don't have a suitable mating > connector for the card edge connector... > > It's a 10-pin single-row card edge connector, with a 0.156in pin pitch, > although I suspect a dual-row (20 pins total, 10x2 layout) would work > fine too. Normally will, You can either ignore the other row of terminals, or solder the wires to the corresponding pins on both sides. > > These are listed as "US stock only" or "Discontinued, obsolete" by every > supplier I've tried... Does anyone have one squirrelled away in a box > somewhere which I could buy or have (he says with a cheeky grin) ? Have you treid Digikey? 0.156" edge conectors are not common in the UK, but they are common in thr States. I've needed such connectors (and indeed 0.125" pitch ones) to repair old HP desktop machines and Digikey have always had something that will do (if not the exact part). They will ship to England, the only downside is the shipping chages. You mihht find one somthing with this few contacts that a 0.15" pitch connector will work. They're more common in the UK, but only on older stuff. I don't think anyone still sells them. There is a klduge if you don't mind modifying the monitor. 0.156" headr plugs and sockets are not hard to find. You cna solder a header to the monitor PCB (either 'SMD' on the edge, solderign the pins of the header ot the edge figners, or drill holes through the fingers and fit the header conventionally). Personally, I'd get the right connectr. > > Or possibly a lead on a source for one or two of these, ideally with > keypins (but the latter isn't essential)? > > I'd also rather like a copy of the datasheet for the monitor module if > anyone has it... I have a pinout (it's the standard 10pin pinout as > posted by Tony Duell quite a while ago -- IIRC either the Kaypro or Many, many 'cahssis monitors' use this pinout. It's a defacto standard IMHO. IIRC the TRS-80 M3 and M4 monitor PCBs have the same pinout. > Osborne monitor uses the same pinout) and a sneaking suspicion that it's > CGA-spec, but no hard proof. I doube very much it's colour :-). But I agree, it's likely to be TV rates (you'll be able to get it to work with either British or American frequencies by twiddling the presets, I susepct). I suspect for somethggn that old they'll have been a proper service sheet -- I have an old British terminal (old meaning that the video is held in shift registers, and the keyboard is upper-case only, with mods in the mnaul to enable lower case) which has a compoiste Motorola open-frame monitor in it. The manual for the terminal includes the Motorola service manual for the monitor. > I do know that it pulls 12V DC at about an amp -- the first value is > printed on the PCB, the second was provided by the meter on my bench supply! Be careful. It's not unheard-of for such monitors to have no horizontal oscilaltor, so if you're not feeding them an Hsync (realy Hdrive) signal, the horizotnal output stage is not doing anyting. You may find the supply current increeases when you actually gett it working. If you know you had EHT, then the horizontal output was working, of course. A couple of points on that. Firstly, if the EHT is present and you have nothign on the scrreen (no bream current), the CRT is quite likely to remain charged when you remove power. Be careful if you disconnect the anode cap. Seondly, a neon bulb (NE2 or similar), or a mains tester screwdriver will often glow if you hold it near an operatin flyback transformer (don't cnnect it to anything). -tony From brain at jbrain.com Mon Sep 19 18:21:59 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 18:21:59 -0500 Subject: PLATO for C64 In-Reply-To: References: <4E76E558.4060101@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4E77CE97.20301@jbrain.com> On 9/19/2011 2:20 AM, SPC wrote: > Interesting. In the original thread of this message I pasted this excerpt > from the Wikipedia articla about PLATO: > > "An attempt to mass-market the PLATO system was introduced in 1980 as > Micro-PLATO, which ran the basic > TUTORsystem > on a CDC "Viking-721" terminal and various home computers. Versions > were built for the Texas Instruments > TI-99/4A, > Atari 8-bit family, Zenith > Z-100 and, later, Radio > Shack > TRS-80 and IBM Personal > Computer > " > > Would you like to expand this paragraph ? If you are sure about this matter, > I think that would be a good idea to indicate it there. Or some kind of > reference. I am not sure my information fits. My C64 emu ran against the actual PLATO installation at UIUC, as far as I know, not MicroPLATO. Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 19 22:23:19 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 23:23:19 -0400 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <4E70F34C.8020608@bitsavers.org> References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4E706573.6040603@jwsss.com> <4E70F34C.8020608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E780727.9080104@neurotica.com> On 09/14/2011 02:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I am going to try to retrieve bitsavers again. > > I suspect the bandwidth from bitsavers is better than from tim. Is it kosher to rsync (big) sections of the archive from you? I.e., it won't piss you off? ;) How big is the whole shebang these days? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spedraja at ono.com Tue Sep 20 01:13:35 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 08:13:35 +0200 Subject: PLATO for C64 In-Reply-To: <4E77CE97.20301@jbrain.com> References: <4E76E558.4060101@jbrain.com> <4E77CE97.20301@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Mmm... Well, I shall try to review this weekend all the information of this message thread (and the other two related) and shall try to do a resume to incorporate in the article in Wikipedia. I shall try to send it too to Cyber1.org to know their opinion. Regards SPc. 2011/9/20 Jim Brain > On 9/19/2011 2:20 AM, SPC wrote: > >> Interesting. In the original thread of this message I pasted this excerpt >> from the Wikipedia articla about PLATO: >> >> "An attempt to mass-market the PLATO system was introduced in 1980 as >> Micro-PLATO, which ran the basic >> TUTOR >> >system >> on a CDC "Viking-721" terminal and various home computers. Versions >> were built for the Texas Instruments >> TI-99/4A >> >, >> Atari 8-bit family>, >> Zenith >> Z-100> >> and, later, Radio >> Shack >> > >> TRS-80> >> and IBM Personal >> Computer >> **> >> " >> >> Would you like to expand this paragraph ? If you are sure about this >> matter, >> I think that would be a good idea to indicate it there. Or some kind of >> reference. >> > I am not sure my information fits. My C64 emu ran against the actual PLATO > installation at UIUC, as far as I know, not MicroPLATO. > > Jim > > From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Sep 20 01:54:36 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 06:54:36 +0000 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course Message-ID: <794642203-1316501672-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1475832650-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> I don't think I ever saw one of those terminals although the game itself does look kind of familiar somehow. From ats at offog.org Tue Sep 20 04:04:07 2011 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 10:04:07 +0100 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <4E780727.9080104@neurotica.com> (Dave McGuire's message of "Mon, 19 Sep 2011 23:23:19 -0400") References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4E706573.6040603@jwsss.com> <4E70F34C.8020608@bitsavers.org> <4E780727.9080104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Dave McGuire writes: > Is it kosher to rsync (big) sections of the archive from you? I.e., > it won't piss you off? ;) If that's a problem, you're welcome to rsync as much as you like from our bitsavers mirror: rsync://rsync.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/ ... then do a final sync off the master to catch up. (It probably won't be very fast; mirrorservice.org has loads of bandwidth, but it's also very busy, and probably not located near you...) > How big is the whole shebang these days? Our mirror's 127 gig at the moment. -- Adam Sampson From jonas at otter.se Mon Sep 19 05:25:01 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 12:25:01 +0200 Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something =?UTF-8?Q?else=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b06aca6f7433c90591df9d3bcf13d0e@otter.se> On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 19:30:36 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Now schematics are unavaialbe and car manufacutrers perpetuate the > myth > that modern cars are harder to service than those or 30 years ago > (hint : > read the approriate workshop manuals, then decide, I have). What has > gone > wrong??? > The car manufacturers certainly do their best to prevent their customers from servicing their cars. Somebody I know had a Volvo V70 that just refused to start one morning. Nothing obviously wrong, it just would not start. It had to be towed to a Volvo dealer. IIRC the problem turned out to be that two of the car's computers decided they didn't want to talk to each other. A software upgrade fixed the problem. It may even have been the case that none of the computers had to do with engine management. The owner of the car is very clueful about hardware, software and cars, but it would still have been a major undertaking for him to even find the problem, let alone obtain the software upgrades. > And I realyl don't understnad why service information is not supplied > with (or at least available for) devices that are almost cetainly > goign > to be owned and used by people with eelectroncis knowledge -- > soldering > stations , mutlimeters, 'scopes, etc. I've still not bougth a new DMM > after my Fluke failed last year because I've yet to find a > manuafactuer > who will supply a service manual. > Because they want you to either buy a new unit, or send the unit to one of their own facilities to be repaired? In case of car manufacturers I believe a significant portion of their profits comes from spare parts and service. Do you have a mobile phone? Modern ones seem to be designed to break down slowly after about 18 months, they are full of custom parts, and the people who repair them do their best to drive you mad. My work phone is (hopefully) being repaired right now. It is 17 months old, the display went permanently blank around August 6th, and the repair people have most likely not started working on it yet. I shall probably have to wait another 2 weeks for it. /Jonas From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 20 10:21:31 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 08:21:31 -0700 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <4E780727.9080104@neurotica.com> References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4E706573.6040603@jwsss.com> <4E70F34C.8020608@bitsavers.org> <4E780727.9080104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E78AF7B.4080307@bitsavers.org> On 9/19/11 8:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Is it kosher to rsync (big) sections of the archive from you? I.e., it won't piss you off? ;) How big is the whole shebang these days? > The issue is I don't control who has access to rsync on bitsavers. It's probably easier to set up an rsync with a mirror site. There is nothing of significance hidden from http, and there is no dynamic content, so doing a wget from http://bitsavers.org gets you essentially the same thing as an rsync. It is currently around 130gb. From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Sep 20 10:45:42 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:45:42 +0000 Subject: MicroPLATO Pascal Course In-Reply-To: <4E772529.14840.306C5C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201109201545.p8KFjks5023839@imr-ma03.mx.aol.com> Thanks for your post(s), I always enjoy reading them. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 20 10:55:50 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 08:55:50 -0700 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <4E78AF7B.4080307@bitsavers.org> References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4E780727.9080104@neurotica.com>, <4E78AF7B.4080307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E785516.22863.F7C89@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2011 at 8:21, Al Kossow wrote: > It is currently around 130gb. So you'd need to expand, what, 20-30 times to fill an inexpensive consumer-level hard drive? :) --Chuck From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Sep 20 11:20:07 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:20:07 +0000 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com Message-ID: <2030917612-1316535602-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-985107836-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> You guys and your extravagances! I couldn't mirror it on one of my Sun boxes, the biggest drive I have is 73G... ------Original Message------ From: Chuck Guzis Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com Sent: 20 Sep 2011 15:55 On 20 Sep 2011 at 8:21, Al Kossow wrote: > It is currently around 130gb. So you'd need to expand, what, 20-30 times to fill an inexpensive consumer-level hard drive? :) --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 20 11:35:27 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 09:35:27 -0700 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <4E785516.22863.F7C89@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4E780727.9080104@neurotica.com>, <4E78AF7B.4080307@bitsavers.org> <4E785516.22863.F7C89@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E78C0CF.9090509@bitsavers.org> On 9/20/11 8:55 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Sep 2011 at 8:21, Al Kossow wrote: > >> It is currently around 130gb. > > So you'd need to expand, what, 20-30 times to fill an inexpensive > consumer-level hard drive? :) > Limiting factor is postprocessing and OCR time. I just checked, and there are over 10000 documents scanned for bitsavers but not processed. And bitsavers is one of two archives I'm currently working on. There are 14000 documents in the other one, which was started about two years ago for internal CHM use. here is the rate of growth of bitsavers since 2006 gb #pdfs 20060523 52 9328 20060728 9406 20061224 10287 20070214 10690 20070421 11082 20070911 12183 20071122 74 12386 20080321 88 14496 20091108 104 14987 20100122 105 20110401 19450 20110920 127 20615 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 20 11:45:03 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 09:45:03 -0700 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <2030917612-1316535602-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-985107836-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <2030917612-1316535602-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-985107836-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <4E78609F.17564.3C8BC1@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2011 at 16:20, Vintage Coder wrote: > You guys and your extravagances! > > I couldn't mirror it on one of my Sun boxes, the biggest drive I have > is 73G... Well, I suppose it depends on your usage. To me, an 80G drive is huge; I can't generate relevant content fast enough. To someone who stores movies on their hard drive, it's unbelievably small. My friend who's a photographer keeps buying TB drives to hold his work. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 20 11:52:58 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 09:52:58 -0700 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <4E78C0CF.9090509@bitsavers.org> References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4E780727.9080104@neurotica.com>, <4E78AF7B.4080307@bitsavers.org> <4E785516.22863.F7C89@cclist.sydex.com> <4E78C0CF.9090509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E78C4EA.7070908@bitsavers.org> On 9/20/11 9:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > here is the rate of growth of bitsavers since 2006 > gb #pdfs > 20060523 52 9328 ... > 20110920 127 20615 > The other interesting statistic is it is roughly 160 documents per gigabyte. From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Sep 20 12:11:40 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 17:11:40 +0000 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com Message-ID: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> Yeah, that's true. What you can buy today is gigantic compared to what was available not so long ago but now everything is digitized so stuff we used to keep on paper and video tape or 8 tracks and film negatives is now on the hard drive. There's never enough room any more and there probably won't ever be again. ------Original Message------ From: Chuck Guzis Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com Sent: 20 Sep 2011 16:45 On 20 Sep 2011 at 16:20, Vintage Coder wrote: > You guys and your extravagances! > > I couldn't mirror it on one of my Sun boxes, the biggest drive I have > is 73G... Well, I suppose it depends on your usage. To me, an 80G drive is huge; I can't generate relevant content fast enough. To someone who stores movies on their hard drive, it's unbelievably small. My friend who's a photographer keeps buying TB drives to hold his work. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 20 12:11:41 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 10:11:41 -0700 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <4E78C0CF.9090509@bitsavers.org> References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4E785516.22863.F7C89@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E78C0CF.9090509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E7866DD.12497.54F062@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2011 at 9:35, Al Kossow wrote: > here is the rate of growth of bitsavers since 2006... Joking aside, Al, what you and the other folks at CHM is incredibly valuable from a historic sense. I've long thought that the paper is far more important in that respect than the iron. The paper gives you a glimpse of what was in the designer's mind, which would be otherwise very difficult to discern from boards full of components. And stuff is still vanishing. Yesterday, one of the posters from Erik's VC forum was looking for a driver from Orchid, which was acquired by Micronics and hosted on its ftp, which has vanished. The Wayback machine was no help. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Tue Sep 20 12:38:05 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 10:38:05 -0700 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <4E7866DD.12497.54F062@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4E785516.22863.F7C89@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E78C0CF.9090509@bitsavers.org> <4E7866DD.12497.54F062@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E78CF7D.5000008@jwsss.com> You can poke websites at archive.org to crawl. It won't help if the site has robots set to deflect archiving, but sometime it misses all of a site because the front porch is marked closed. I have entered all of my sites for crawling. I don't know how good it does archiving content though. It seems to get images, but not sure about binaries of various types. I've seen a very few binaries, so they do save some. It may be a function of how hard you poke at it. Jim On 9/20/2011 10:11 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Orchid, which was > acquired by Micronics and hosted on its ftp, which has vanished. The > Wayback machine was no help. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 20 12:16:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:16:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something In-Reply-To: <4b06aca6f7433c90591df9d3bcf13d0e@otter.se> from "jonas@otter.se" at Sep 19, 11 12:25:01 pm Message-ID: > The car manufacturers certainly do their best to prevent their > customers > from servicing their cars. Somebody I know had a Volvo V70 that just Indeed. I feel that cars are often designed to make jobs difficult, or require sepcial tools. Heck, my father's Skoda needs a special tool to remove the spark plugs (!), fortunately the dealer sold us one. > refused to start one morning. Nothing obviously wrong, it just would > not > start. It had to be towed to a Volvo dealer. IIRC the problem turned > out > to be that two of the car's computers decided they didn't want to talk > to > each other. A software upgrade fixed the problem. It may even have been > the case that none of the computers had to do with engine management. I am pretty sure taht on said Skoda (and I assume other VAG vehicles), the engine management controller talks to a controller in the instruemnt cluster to verify that the ignition key has returned the right code. And that you have to reprogram various codes if you replace either unit, or the engine won't start. BLETCH! > Because they want you to either buy a new unit, or send the unit to one Alas I think you're right. Of course it doesn't work with me,, at least not for my own stuff. I choose things I can repair, and if the manufactuers won't supply a service manual I produce my own, if they don't sell spares, I make them. It limits me to older technology, of course, but it doesn't half reduce my stress level. > of their own facilities to be repaired? In case of car manufacturers I > believe a significant portion of their profits comes from spare parts > and > service. > > Do you have a mobile phone? Modern ones seem to be designed to break > down > slowly after about 18 months, they are full of custom parts, and the > people who repair them do their best to drive you mad. My work phone is > (hopefully) being repaired right now. It is 17 months old, the display > went permanently blank around August 6th, and the repair people have > most > likely not started working on it yet. I shall probably have to wait > another > 2 weeks for it. I do have cellualr phone, it's one a friend gave me when he upgraded. It's just a simple phone, nothing more. I use it very rarely, and could easily manage without it. I don;t fancy tryign to repair it. It's all SMD (and most BGa at that) inside, I don't think I recognised any of the ICs :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 20 12:52:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:52:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip Message-ID: I think some of us like the INM type M keyboard... If you are brace enough to take the heatstaked 'sandwich' apart and replace the stkes with screws (I post the method for doign that some years back), it's easy for one or two of the 'flaps' to jump out of position when you're putting the bits together again. You then have a couple of keys that don't work and you have to take the whole thing apart again. What I do now is insert a flap then slightly stretch its spring and press it over the rear of the key plunger housing, forcing the rim of the housing between the coils of the spring. It'll stay like that, and the flap will be held in place. Fit all of them, put the rubber sheet, the membrane sheets and the base plate on, and screw it all together. Then unhook the springs by running a screwdriver along, and fit the keycaps. The plastic keyframe can be cafully cut between rows of keys (it sometimes breaks along these lines anyway). You can then use parts of 2 damaged keyframes to make one good keyboard. I am not sure what the offical sixe of head for the casing screws is. It's often quoted as 7/32", which turns out to be a smidgen more than 5.5mm. I've found both my 7/32" and 5.5mm nutdriver fit fine. Somebody was looking for some tpye M casing screws. Did you find them? I spent the afternoon making a good tpye M from bits of 2 broken ones, and thus I have soem bits over :-). I never thown anything away so I've got a box of flaps, screws, etc. I could probably be persuaded to part wit hthe casing screws... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 20 13:01:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:01:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> from "Vintage Coder" at Sep 20, 11 05:11:40 pm Message-ID: > > Yeah, that's true. What you can buy today is gigantic compared to what > was available not so long ago but now everything is digitized so stuff > we used to keep on paper and video tape or 8 tracks and film negatives > is now on the hard drive. There's never enough room any more and there I guess that's how I manage to only need a tiny (by modern standards) hard drive. Manuals and books are on paper, photographs are silver images and audio recordings, well not 8-tracks, please... 1/4" recording tape. > probably won't ever be again. I think it's a well-known fact that you never have enough disk space (or, indeed, physical space for uour machines, test gear, tools, etc). Joking aside, biutsavers is a tremendous resource from both the historical and practical standpoint. It is much appreicated here. Long may it continue! -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 20 13:03:40 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:03:40 -0700 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <4E78CF7D.5000008@jwsss.com> References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4E7866DD.12497.54F062@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E78CF7D.5000008@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E78730C.5758.848616@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2011 at 10:38, jim s wrote: > You can poke websites at archive.org to crawl. It won't help if the > site has robots set to deflect archiving, but sometime it misses all > of a site because the front porch is marked closed. I have entered > all of my sites for crawling. I don't know how good it does archiving > content though. It seems to get images, but not sure about binaries > of various types. I've seen a very few binaries, so they do save > some. Nope, Micronics has ROBOTS.TXT. I've never found archive.org to be of much use when looking for defunct ftp material. Am I missing something? --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 20 13:41:41 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:41:41 -0400 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4E7866DD.12497.54F062@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E78CF7D.5000008@jwsss.com> <4E78730C.5758.848616@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 2:03 PM Subject: Re: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com > > Nope, Micronics has ROBOTS.TXT. > > I've never found archive.org to be of much use when looking for > defunct ftp material. > > Am I missing something? > > --Chuck You can figure out the filenames sometimes using archive.org and then do an FTP search to find that file. Sometimes the files are on some university FTP in Asia that doesn't bother deleting old stuff. From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Sep 20 13:51:29 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:51:29 +0000 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com Message-ID: <1844649155-1316544684-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-738091193-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> I guess most of us on this list appreciate old and original copies of things. I have a small collection of old doc (although most of it is inaccessible to me at the moment) and record albums, photo albums etc. Things just seem to become unmanageable as the years go on and what was easy to find today can quickly disappear tomorrow. I echo your sentiments and Chuck's. A huge thank you to Al and all the archivists who keep things available to others in this world of vanishing code, doc, etc. ------Original Message------ From: Tony Duell Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: cctalk at classiccmp.org ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com Sent: 20 Sep 2011 18:01 > > Yeah, that's true. What you can buy today is gigantic compared to what > was available not so long ago but now everything is digitized so stuff > we used to keep on paper and video tape or 8 tracks and film negatives > is now on the hard drive. There's never enough room any more and there I guess that's how I manage to only need a tiny (by modern standards) hard drive. Manuals and books are on paper, photographs are silver images and audio recordings, well not 8-tracks, please... 1/4" recording tape. > probably won't ever be again. I think it's a well-known fact that you never have enough disk space (or, indeed, physical space for uour machines, test gear, tools, etc). Joking aside, biutsavers is a tremendous resource from both the historical and practical standpoint. It is much appreicated here. Long may it continue! -tony From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue Sep 20 13:53:57 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:53:57 +0000 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip Message-ID: <1635382524-1316544833-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-527415853-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> A good source of Model M info is geekhack.org. There are some guys there with experience restoring/salvaging these keyboards. They should also be able to tell you where you can find parts, etc. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Sep 20 14:41:35 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 21:41:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RK05 Message-ID: Hi, I'm trying to repair my RK05 drive. It seems that it doesn't find track 0 when loading the heads, thus moving the heads to the inner limit, forcing a return-to-zero and starting all over again. I think the fault is on the M7681 card (cylinder address and difference), the output of E16 pin 8 (CAD3 zero detect H) doesn't change, nor does the input on pin 10. And here comes the problem: the M7681 isn't described in any DEC documentation I've found so far (apart from the schematics), only the older M7702 card (the function is practically the same, but they are completely different designs). The new card contains several undocumented TTL ROMs (8223). The output of pin 6 of E1 goes to the input pin 10 of E16, probably a difference==zero bit. So here comes my question: does anyone have a ROM listing of these ROMs, especially of E1? I'd like to know what exactly that ROM is doing. Christian From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 20 14:47:05 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RANT: Never enough room (was: New rsync mirroring at In-Reply-To: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> References: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> Message-ID: <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> > Yeah, that's true. What you can buy today is gigantic compared to what > was available not so long ago but now everything is digitized so stuff > we used to keep on paper and video tape or 8 tracks and film negatives > is now on the hard drive. There's never enough room any more and there > probably won't ever be again. Boyle's Law states that a gas will expand to fit the available space. Data, software, and commercial software products do, also. Moore's Law (which is an observation, not a law) holds that speed and capacity will double every 18 months. That isn't enough when content (and size of MICROS~1 products) doubles every 17 months. MICROS~1 seems to use Moore's Law as a design tool - always design everything to require twice the speed and capacity of current technology. If speed and storage efficiency of the product isn't adequate, throw hardware at it. Seriously though, part of the problem is that MICROS~1 seems to believe (or at least used to) in treating programmers well. Programmers always use current state of the art, rather than using machines representative of what the customers have. If a programmer fills the drive, they give them a bigger one. If a programmer gripes about speed, they provide a faster machine. Therefore, without necessarily any such INTENT, they are in a world of unlimited resource, produce products that expect better resources that what the customers have, and push the industry towards following Moore's Law. If a progammer has a flaky machine, it gets replaced immediately. Should that really always be done, even for those writing exception handlers? An unfortunate consequence is that those writing code to handle errors have no experience with them, and SIMULATED errors do NOT behave like the real thing. If MICROS~1 were to trade computers with us, the next round of software would be more efficient (faster and using space more effectively), and significantly less buggy, since they would have to put up with slow performance, running out of disk and memory space, and would experience the bugs of the real world. As an example of OS bugs directly related to MICROS~1 programmers not having adequate real world bug experience, SMARTDRV became MANDATORY starting with Windoze 3.10 Beta. When it would hit a sector read/write error, it would have already told the installer that that part of the task had been successfully completed! Therefore, it could not "Ignore" and continue. It could not "Abort" or "Fail" that part of the task, because it had "alredy been completed". Therefore, the ONLY option for the critical error handler was "RETRY". Even in cases where that could not possibly succeed. Normal SOP would previously have been to IGNORE, record the filename, complete the installation and then go back and manually repair/replace THAT file. But THAT is not an option. The ONLY way out of the RETRY loop is to reboot. BUT, since SMARTDRV wrote the DIRectory sectors AFTER all else was done (and had not been done at the time of the REBOOT), there is no trace of the aborted installation. On Windoze 3.10 beta installation, I hit a sector error that Spinrite, etc. could not find. When I reported the problem, MS "beta Support" declared it to be a "Hardware Problem - NOT OUR PROBLEM". I attempted to point out that: 1) It IS the responsibility of the OS to properly handle hardware problems. 2) SMARTDRV installation should be OPTIONAL, or at least OVER-RIDABLE, such as a command line switch for SETUP to specify not installing or activating it. 3) SMARTDRV's write caching will eventually cause significant data loss. Because of the "background" unpublicized nature of it, OTHER PROGRAMS will get blamed for the loss. I was not invited to any further beta testings. MS-DOS 6.00 added SMARTDRV and disk compression. Most word processor and spreadsheet users were in the habit of saving their file, and turning off the machine as soon as the DOS prompt re-appeared. Of couse, with write-caching, the file had not yet been written when the flow of computrons ceased. Soon, the press was flooded with stories of "Microsoft disk compression causing data loss!" Infoworld, for example, ran dozens of such stories. They ran a test suite that did a bunch of office macros, then did a cold boot, in a loop. Of course, the SMARTDRV write cacheing was wiped by the reboots, and data was lost. Bill Gates called the editor of Infoworld and told them that their test procedure was flawed. What else was he going to say? that there WAS a known intolerable problem, but that it was a DIFFERENT part of the OS that was for real at fault? BIG TIME. Infoworld reported that phone call as "harrassment" and "intimidation". Eventually, to maintain public image, MICROS~1 had to fix "the disk compression bugs". The repair, which was released as a FREE "STEPUP" upgrade from 6.00 to 6.20 (6.10 was in use by IBM), consisted of: FIX DISK COMPRESSION BUGS: 1) Disable SMARTDRV write-cacheing 2) IF write-cacheing were deliberately re-enabled a) delay re-display of DOS prompt until buffers had been written b) disable the rearrangement of writes, so that what writes were done would be in chronological order (The differences between 6.20, 6.21, and 6.22 were unrelated, and due to having the disk compression (6.20), losing the IP court case with STACer (6.21 without compression), and re-releasing with a different compression program (6.22)) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Sep 20 14:50:35 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:50:35 -0700 Subject: RANT: Never enough room (was: New rsync mirroring at In-Reply-To: <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> References: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In summary: Grumpy Ol' Fred From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 20 14:58:48 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:58:48 -0700 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, Message-ID: <4E788E08.12415.EDF05A@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2011 at 14:41, TeoZ wrote: > You can figure out the filenames sometimes using archive.org and then > do an FTP search to find that file. Sometimes the files are on some > university FTP in Asia that doesn't bother deleting old stuff. Did that--the filename (IIRC) is REUTL21.EXE. Tried about 5 ftp searching sites. Nothing; even for REUTL* --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Tue Sep 20 15:12:02 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:12:02 -0500 Subject: RK05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Christian, Is the little red maintence switch in the right position? Was the drive working earlier and just stopped? The quarterly PM usually helps find this type of problem. Where are you located? Paul On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Christian Corti wrote: > Hi, > > I'm trying to repair my RK05 drive. It seems that it doesn't find track 0 > when loading the heads, thus moving the heads to the inner limit, forcing a > return-to-zero and starting all over again. I think the fault is on the > M7681 card (cylinder address and difference), the output of E16 pin 8 (CAD3 > zero detect H) doesn't change, nor does the input on pin 10. And here comes > the problem: the M7681 isn't described in any DEC documentation I've found > so far (apart from the schematics), only the older M7702 card (the function > is practically the same, but they are completely different designs). The new > card contains several undocumented TTL ROMs (8223). The output of pin 6 of > E1 goes to the input pin 10 of E16, probably a difference==zero bit. > ?So here comes my question: does anyone have a ROM listing of these ROMs, > especially of E1? I'd like to know what exactly that ROM is doing. > > Christian > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 20 15:13:56 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RANT: Never enough room (was: New rsync mirroring at In-Reply-To: References: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110920131214.M45193@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 20 Sep 2011, Glen Slick wrote: > In summary: Grumpy Ol' Fred I concede that my attitude can be a "bit" cynical. But do you contest the points that I attempted to make? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 20 16:06:17 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:06:17 -0700 Subject: RANT: Never enough room In-Reply-To: <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> References: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E790049.9060900@bitsavers.org> On 9/20/11 12:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Seriously though, part of the problem is that MICROS~1 seems to believe > (or at least used to) in treating programmers well. MSFT programmers do what the Program Managers tell them to, right or wrong. Every programmer I know that has worked for them have a universal hatred of them. So, don't blame the programmers. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 20 16:11:29 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > I think some of us like the INM type M keyboard... > > If you are brace enough to take the heatstaked 'sandwich' apart and > replace the stkes with screws (I post the method for doign that some > years back), it's easy for one or two of the 'flaps' to jump out of > position when you're putting the bits together again. You then have a > couple of keys that don't work and you have to take the whole thing apart > again. > > What I do now is insert a flap then slightly stretch its spring and press > it over the rear of the key plunger housing, forcing the rim of the housing > between the coils of the spring. It'll stay like that, and the flap will > be held in place. Fit all of them, put the rubber sheet, the membrane > sheets and the base plate on, and screw it all together. Then unhook the > springs by running a screwdriver along, and fit the keycaps. That sounds like a keen way of saving time when putting things back together. One of my Model Ms has developed a problem with the F key such that even the slightest pressure causes it to trigger rather than triggering at the snap. I'll probably cut off the plastic rivets and fit it with screws to get it back to health. I've done that once before and the results were very good. The one that I reworked with screws went out of commission when I extracted the controller board in anticipation of making a USB controller board. Somewhere along the line I lost the case screws. I think I'll buy a brand-new Model M from Unicomp with a USB controller when the time comes. Does anyone here have a Unicomp Model M? I've also been craving a steampunk reworking of the Model M of the sort that Datamancer makes. If you've seen the show "Warehouse 13", you've seen one of these on Artie's desk. I think I'd feel better about cutting apart a Unicomp than cutting up one of my old IBM ones. Just for warm fuzzies, I like to spray some metal primer and back Rustoleum on the metal plate. Of course I leave space for the grounding connection. > The plastic keyframe can be cafully cut between rows of keys (it > sometimes breaks along these lines anyway). You can then use parts of 2 > damaged keyframes to make one good keyboard. > > I am not sure what the offical sixe of head for the casing screws is. > It's often quoted as 7/32", which turns out to be a smidgen more than > 5.5mm. I've found both my 7/32" and 5.5mm nutdriver fit fine. > > Somebody was looking for some tpye M casing screws. Did you find them? I > spent the afternoon making a good tpye M from bits of 2 broken ones, and > thus I have soem bits over :-). I never thown anything away so I've got a > box of flaps, screws, etc. I could probably be persuaded to part wit hthe > casing screws... That was me. I'm getting some screws from the guy who runs clickeykeyboards.com. Thanks for the offer. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 20 16:14:21 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 17:14:21 -0400 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4E788E08.12415.EDF05A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B1E36CBF189497784AF50E2524A0EBF@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 3:58 PM Subject: Re: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com > On 20 Sep 2011 at 14:41, TeoZ wrote: > >> You can figure out the filenames sometimes using archive.org and then >> do an FTP search to find that file. Sometimes the files are on some >> university FTP in Asia that doesn't bother deleting old stuff. > > Did that--the filename (IIRC) is REUTL21.EXE. Tried about 5 ftp > searching sites. Nothing; even for REUTL* > > --Chuck > > > Orchid Ramquest drivers? From blkline at attglobal.net Tue Sep 20 16:26:37 2011 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 17:26:37 -0400 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E79050D.40307@attglobal.net> On 09/20/2011 05:11 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone here have a Unicomp Model M? I do, and I'm very happy with it. I bought the one that has the key where it belongs, to the left of the 'A' key. Barry From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 20 16:33:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:33:23 -0700 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com In-Reply-To: <4B1E36CBF189497784AF50E2524A0EBF@dell8300> References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B1E36CBF189497784AF50E2524A0EBF@dell8300> Message-ID: <4E78A433.8223.14484F7@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2011 at 17:14, TeoZ wrote: > Orchid Ramquest drivers? Specifically, the MCA version of the Ramquest, which appears to be very different from the ISA version. --Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Sep 20 16:34:46 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 23:34:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RK05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Sep 2011, Paul Anderson wrote: > Is the little red maintence switch in the right position? Was the Yes, that switch simply disables the positioner current. I have it disabled for the moment so that I can move the head assembly by hand and observe the count pulses on the scope. > drive working earlier and just stopped? The quarterly PM usually helps > find this type of problem. Where are you located? Yes, the drive was working just fine. I think this is an electronics fault on said card. Whatever I do I can observe changes on the DIFF outputs from the ROM (outputs M0 to M4) but not on output M5. And the problem is that I don't know when this output should go low. I think I'll have to borrow another M7681 (and M7702 for reference) next week from the spares of our museum (BTW I'm in Stuttgart, Germany). Christian From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Sep 20 16:34:45 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 14:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Sep 2011, David Griffith wrote: > brand-new Model M from Unicomp with a USB controller when the time comes. > Does anyone here have a Unicomp Model M? > Yes! Great keyboard! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 20 17:02:02 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:02:02 -0400 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com References: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4B1E36CBF189497784AF50E2524A0EBF@dell8300> <4E78A433.8223.14484F7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <745CB9AB8EE6425EB21FADC593757D33@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 5:33 PM Subject: Re: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com > On 20 Sep 2011 at 17:14, TeoZ wrote: > >> Orchid Ramquest drivers? > > Specifically, the MCA version of the Ramquest, which appears to be > very different from the ISA version. > > --Chuck > The ISA version needs to configure the card (which is what the ADF file does on the MCA bus) after that you need the correct memory manager I assume. Guess I should go and look for what I am using on my Model 60 (not sure which cards are installed). From jws at jwsss.com Tue Sep 20 17:16:46 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:16:46 -0700 Subject: RANT: Never enough room In-Reply-To: <4E790049.9060900@bitsavers.org> References: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> <4E790049.9060900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E7910CE.2000201@jwsss.com> On 9/20/2011 2:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/20/11 12:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Seriously though, part of the problem is that MICROS~1 seems to believe >> (or at least used to) in treating programmers well. > > MSFT programmers do what the Program Managers tell them to, right or > wrong. > > Every programmer I know that has worked for them have a universal > hatred of > them. > > So, don't blame the programmers. I would submit that the programmers should not be seeing flaky hardware upon which to do their development. The process should be to develop requirements, design, implement and test. The process at MS clearly had not found out how to test, and if the product was not handling the problem, then they failed totally up front in developing requirements. Since they rushed out a hack to rip of Stac-er or whatever it was, clearly almost one of the above methodology was followed, as you pointed out with illustrations. However it does no good to have a workstation in front of a programmer which doesn't work. The way to handle the problem is to give the problem of anticipating failures to someone who can develop test cases, which the product can be thrown at by the testers. Otherwise, how do you know if you have tested it again. One should be able to trace all the functions of the program back through to a use case which has been thought out, including ones which should be covering failing cases. You'd be way further down the line with that product than either what is there, or one developed by a programmer on flaky hardware, or unknown failure cases. the Beta program should not necessarily include someone with the problems you had w/o being sure they are doing the use case testing that makes sense, and in any case they should never ignore a concise report of a problem. jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 20 17:25:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 18:25:40 -0400 Subject: Interesting email addresses of old... In-Reply-To: References: <4E6A91A8.9060309@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <4E7912E4.7040008@neurotica.com> On 09/09/2011 07:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Then there was my beloved william at ans.net... You worked for ANS? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Sep 20 17:41:19 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:41:19 -0700 Subject: RANT: Never enough room In-Reply-To: <4E7910CE.2000201@jwsss.com> References: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> <4E790049.9060900@bitsavers.org>,<4E7910CE.2000201@jwsss.com> Message-ID: We did test, and test and test and test. We had databases filled with bug reports, thousands upon thousands of them for any given product. It's not that the test process doesn't exist or that it's not effective. It's the priority given to quality vs. ship dates and new feature sets. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Stephens [jws at jwsss.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 3:16 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: RANT: Never enough room On 9/20/2011 2:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/20/11 12:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Seriously though, part of the problem is that MICROS~1 seems to believe >> (or at least used to) in treating programmers well. > > MSFT programmers do what the Program Managers tell them to, right or > wrong. > > Every programmer I know that has worked for them have a universal > hatred of > them. > > So, don't blame the programmers. I would submit that the programmers should not be seeing flaky hardware upon which to do their development. The process should be to develop requirements, design, implement and test. The process at MS clearly had not found out how to test, and if the product was not handling the problem, then they failed totally up front in developing requirements. Since they rushed out a hack to rip of Stac-er or whatever it was, clearly almost one of the above methodology was followed, as you pointed out with illustrations. However it does no good to have a workstation in front of a programmer which doesn't work. The way to handle the problem is to give the problem of anticipating failures to someone who can develop test cases, which the product can be thrown at by the testers. Otherwise, how do you know if you have tested it again. One should be able to trace all the functions of the program back through to a use case which has been thought out, including ones which should be covering failing cases. You'd be way further down the line with that product than either what is there, or one developed by a programmer on flaky hardware, or unknown failure cases. the Beta program should not necessarily include someone with the problems you had w/o being sure they are doing the use case testing that makes sense, and in any case they should never ignore a concise report of a problem. jim From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Sep 20 17:47:16 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:47:16 -0700 Subject: TTI 8510 Manual and/or switch settings... Message-ID: <201109201547.17053.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I recently acquired a clean TTI (Transitional Technology) 8510 8mm SCSI tape drive. I've searched Google extensively - but have found no manual or even a switch settings guide. It emulates an Exabyte EXB-8200/EXB-8500, a DEC TK50Z, an IBM 2.3 GB or the native TTI 8510 (from Google). It has twelve dip switches, three of which I've found to be the SCSI address - the others are a mystery. Does anyone have a manual or guide to the switch settings for this tape drive? Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Sep 20 19:21:17 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 20:21:17 -0400 Subject: RANT: Never enough room In-Reply-To: <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> References: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E792DFD.5030903@compsys.to> >Fred Cisin wrote: >>Yeah, that's true. What you can buy today is gigantic compared to what >>was available not so long ago but now everything is digitized so stuff >>we used to keep on paper and video tape or 8 tracks and film negatives >>is now on the hard drive. There's never enough room any more and there >>probably won't ever be again. >> >> > >Boyle's Law states that a gas will expand to fit the available space. >Data, software, and commercial software products do, also. > >Moore's Law (which is an observation, not a law) holds that speed >and capacity will double every 18 months. >That isn't enough when content (and size of MICROS~1 products) doubles >every 17 months. >MICROS~1 seems to use Moore's Law as a design tool - always design >everything to require twice the speed and capacity of current technology. >If speed and storage efficiency of the product isn't adequate, throw >hardware at it. > >Seriously though, part of the problem is that MICROS~1 seems to believe >(or at least used to) in treating programmers well. Programmers always >use current state of the art, rather than using machines representative of >what the customers have. If a programmer fills the drive, they give them >a bigger one. If a programmer gripes about speed, they provide a faster >machine. Therefore, without necessarily any such INTENT, they are in a >world of unlimited resource, produce products that expect better resources >that what the customers have, and push the industry towards following >Moore's Law. > >If a progammer has a flaky machine, it gets replaced immediately. Should >that really always be done, even for those writing exception handlers? An >unfortunate consequence is that those writing code to handle errors have >no experience with them, and SIMULATED errors do NOT behave like the real >thing. If MICROS~1 were to trade computers with us, the next round of >software would be more efficient (faster and using space more >effectively), and significantly less buggy, since they would have to put >up with slow performance, running out of disk and memory space, and would >experience the bugs of the real world. > >As an example of OS bugs directly related to MICROS~1 programmers not >having adequate real world bug experience, SMARTDRV became MANDATORY >starting with Windoze 3.10 Beta. When it would hit a sector read/write >error, it would have already told the installer that that part of the task >had been successfully completed! Therefore, it could not "Ignore" and >continue. It could not "Abort" or "Fail" that part of the task, because >it had "alredy been completed". Therefore, the ONLY option for the >critical error handler was "RETRY". Even in cases where that could not >possibly succeed. Normal SOP would previously have been to IGNORE, record >the filename, complete the installation and then go back and manually >repair/replace THAT file. But THAT is not an option. The ONLY way out of >the RETRY loop is to reboot. BUT, since SMARTDRV wrote the DIRectory >sectors AFTER all else was done (and had not been done at the time of the >REBOOT), there is no trace of the aborted installation. > >On Windoze 3.10 beta installation, I hit a sector error that Spinrite, >etc. could not find. When I reported the problem, MS "beta Support" >declared it to be a "Hardware Problem - NOT OUR PROBLEM". I attempted to >point out that: >1) It IS the responsibility of the OS to properly handle hardware problems. >2) SMARTDRV installation should be OPTIONAL, or at least OVER-RIDABLE, > such as a command line switch for SETUP to specify not installing or > activating it. >3) SMARTDRV's write caching will eventually cause significant data loss. > Because of the "background" unpublicized nature of it, OTHER PROGRAMS > will get blamed for the loss. > >I was not invited to any further beta testings. > > >MS-DOS 6.00 added SMARTDRV and disk compression. >Most word processor and spreadsheet users were in the habit of saving >their file, and turning off the machine as soon as the DOS prompt >re-appeared. Of couse, with write-caching, the file had not yet been >written when the flow of computrons ceased. > >Soon, the press was flooded with stories of "Microsoft disk compression >causing data loss!" >Infoworld, for example, ran dozens of such stories. They ran a test suite >that did a bunch of office macros, then did a cold boot, in a loop. Of >course, the SMARTDRV write cacheing was wiped by the reboots, and data was >lost. >Bill Gates called the editor of Infoworld and told them that their test >procedure was flawed. What else was he going to say? that there WAS a >known intolerable problem, but that it was a DIFFERENT part of the OS >that was for real at fault? BIG TIME. >Infoworld reported that phone call as "harrassment" and "intimidation". > >Eventually, to maintain public image, MICROS~1 had to fix "the disk >compression bugs". The repair, which was released as a FREE "STEPUP" >upgrade from 6.00 to 6.20 (6.10 was in use by IBM), consisted of: >FIX DISK COMPRESSION BUGS: >1) Disable SMARTDRV write-cacheing >2) IF write-cacheing were deliberately re-enabled > a) delay re-display of DOS prompt until buffers had been written > b) disable the rearrangement of writes, so that what writes were done > would be in chronological order > >(The differences between 6.20, 6.21, and 6.22 were unrelated, and due to >having the disk compression (6.20), losing the IP court case with STACer >(6.21 without compression), and re-releasing with a different compression >program (6.22)) > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > Your observations about how MICROS~1 handled bugs in DOS 6.00 does not seem all that different from how DEC handled some of the bugs in RT-11 around the same time frame - EXCEPT that at least DEC kept a "lean and efficient" overall goal for the software. PLUS, DEC also kept the operating system compatible with old software for the most part as long as the program had not taken advantage of undocumented aspects of the operating system (which would have been difficult for normal programmers who had only the uncommented source code for the operating system and device drivers) which had been changed or rarely in a few cases even discontinued. For example, around 1980 I worked on a project which used V04.00 of RT-11 and had access to the support group at DEC. A fatal problem occurred early during the development when a program (MU-BASIC) failed to initialize and start execution during the boot operation because another higher priority job had started and was preventing MU-BASIC from initializing itself. The support group was totally useless and the solution was trivial - when the higher priority job first started, it only needed to suspend operations long enough to allow MU-BASIC to initialize itself and begin normal operation. Then RT-11 gave the higher priority job all the time it needed to execute (about 10% of the CPU time) and everything was OK. On another occasion, a bug was found in SRCCOM.SAV (two tests were done in the wrong order) resulting in the extra memory that was available not being used. DEC was totally uninterested and I don't think that the error was ever corrected. I admit that by 1991, most of the development on RT-11 probably stopped short of adding Y2K support for RT-11 even though the Y2K bugs had been fixed in a number of places without the user being aware since only 2 digit years were displayed. An obvious example was V05.06 of MACRO.SAV which had no changes when V05.07 of RT-11 was released in 1998 with the rest of the Y2K bugs fixed. I agree that at least DEC was experiencing great turmoil by 1990 and that must have been a great problem for continued development - let alone that PDP-11 hardware had essentially been frozen and VMS was probably considered the only important product at that point - at least until Compaq bought DEC - which in turn was bought by HP. It is not completely clear to me why Ken Olsen could be so brilliant up until 1980, but failed to see and make the necessary changes to DEC thereafter. So MICROS~1 is not the only company with bad management. With all of the seven dwarves gone and IBM a very different company, it would seem that software development has been unable to achieve the same sort of advances seen by hardware. I strongly agree with your point about error handling. I suspect that most of the code I write uses about half of the instructions to handle error conditions - which occur less than 1% of the time and some of which never occur, but just in case. I find that when error conditions are handled correctly, the program rarely gets into difficulty. And it is much easier and takes much less time to handle the errors correctly when the program is being written than to integrate the error handling code into the program after everything else has been completed. Jerome Fine From jws at jwsss.com Tue Sep 20 18:50:55 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:50:55 -0700 Subject: RANT: Never enough room In-Reply-To: References: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> <4E790049.9060900@bitsavers.org>, <4E7910CE.2000201@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E7926DF.6040705@jwsss.com> On 9/20/2011 3:41 PM, Ian King wrote: > It's not that the test process doesn't exist or that it's not effective. It's the priority given to quality vs. ship dates and new feature sets. -- Ian We have the same problem now, throw out functions that don't work to get product shipped. The bugs like Fred saw should have a way to be identified somehow and get the problem fixed or not shipped. It isn't an easy problem to deal with. It's always scary when well tested bits are pulled for "better" solutions at the last minute too. Jim From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Sep 20 20:34:36 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 21:34:36 -0400 Subject: RANT: Never enough room In-Reply-To: <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> References: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E793F2C.5050906@telegraphics.com.au> On 20/09/11 3:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Yeah, that's true. What you can buy today is gigantic compared to what >> was available not so long ago but now everything is digitized so stuff >> we used to keep on paper and video tape or 8 tracks and film negatives >> is now on the hard drive. There's never enough room any more and there >> probably won't ever be again. > > Boyle's Law states that a gas will expand to fit the available space. > Data, software, and commercial software products do, also. > > Moore's Law (which is an observation, not a law) holds that speed > and capacity will double every 18 months. > That isn't enough when content (and size of MICROS~1 products) doubles > every 17 months. ... > Seriously though, part of the problem is that MICROS~1 seems to believe > (or at least used to) in treating programmers well. Programmers always > use current state of the art, rather than using machines representative of > what the customers have. ... > If MICROS~1 were to trade computers with us, the next round of > software would be more efficient (faster and using space more > effectively), and significantly less buggy, since they would have to put > up with slow performance, running out of disk and memory space, and would > experience the bugs of the real world. > This is very true and may be the only realistic way of turning back the tide of bloat, poor design and poor architecture. Programmers should be on SLOW machines! Otherwise what we get is a kind of software-enforced hardware obsolescence, which is just wrong. (The problem isn't limited to Microsoft, though. The rant might have reasonably focused on them in the 1990s, but are they even relevant any more?) --Toby > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 20 20:56:54 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 21:56:54 -0400 Subject: RANT: Never enough room References: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> <4E793F2C.5050906@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:34 PM Subject: Re: RANT: Never enough room > > This is very true and may be the only realistic way of turning back the > tide of bloat, poor design and poor architecture. Programmers should be > on SLOW machines! Otherwise what we get is a kind of software-enforced > hardware obsolescence, which is just wrong. > > (The problem isn't limited to Microsoft, though. The rant might have > reasonably focused on them in the 1990s, but are they even relevant any > more?) > > --Toby The problem is people blindly upgrading their computer/OS/Software for no real reason. I don't understand why you need to have the latest version of most mature apps when very few people need or will use those new features. Older apps and OS fly on new hardware, why upgrade? Programmers target the machines that they expect to be the norm when their software is released. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 20 21:05:08 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 19:05:08 -0700 Subject: RANT: Never enough room In-Reply-To: <4E793F2C.5050906@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry>, <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net>, <4E793F2C.5050906@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E78E3E4.16982.23D50AD@cclist.sydex.com> You know, in the current IEEE Computer, there was a study about the impact of software bloat. For the life of me, I can't figure out what the conclusions and recommendations were. The article was too bloated. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Sep 20 21:52:43 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 22:52:43 -0400 Subject: RANT: Never enough room In-Reply-To: References: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> <4E793F2C.5050906@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E79517B.6020802@telegraphics.com.au> On 20/09/11 9:56 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:34 PM > Subject: Re: RANT: Never enough room > > >> >> This is very true and may be the only realistic way of turning back the >> tide of bloat, poor design and poor architecture. Programmers should be >> on SLOW machines! Otherwise what we get is a kind of software-enforced >> hardware obsolescence, which is just wrong. >> >> (The problem isn't limited to Microsoft, though. The rant might have >> reasonably focused on them in the 1990s, but are they even relevant any >> more?) >> >> --Toby > > > The problem is people blindly upgrading their computer/OS/Software for > no real reason. Yes, that's a problem too. > I don't understand why you need to have the latest > version of most mature apps when very few people need or will use those > new features. Older apps and OS fly on new hardware, why upgrade? > > Programmers target the machines that they expect to be the norm when > their software is released. They wouldn't, if they didn't have them on their desks. A bit of tough love may be needed. Look at the payoff: For all the fools blowing money on new hardware they don't need, get a FASTER system because the software is so much more efficient (having been tested on slow hardware); and those with older hardware will continue to be able to use it effectively. Can't see any downside here. And pointless consumption has to end, anyway. --Toby From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 20 22:06:06 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 23:06:06 -0400 Subject: RANT: Never enough room References: <1757812619-1316538695-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1717071718-@b16.c1.bise3.blackberry> <20110920115454.C45193@shell.lmi.net> <4E793F2C.5050906@telegraphics.com.au> <4E79517B.6020802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 10:52 PM Subject: Re: RANT: Never enough room > Can't see any downside here. And pointless consumption has to end, anyway. > > --Toby Pointless consumption will have to get worse. We are a society where all companies live and die by revenue increases every year yet western birthrates are shrinking along with wages. Less people with less money yet still needing more consumption to get keep the economy floating along. Anyway I expect computer companies will start recycling old system with new case colors to sell to people every three years when our Chinese credit card gets maxed out. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 00:04:36 2011 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 15:04:36 +1000 Subject: seeking ExperLisp by Expertelligence for Macintosh Message-ID: I used this in the 1980s and would like to get a replacement copy for the one I lost - thanks. Last year on eBay someone purchased a large collection of Macintosh diskettes, one of which was an ExperLisp diskette, so if that person is a cctalk-er I would appreciate a reply. It was released for the Mac 512K and later Macintosh. Some details here: http://www.macmod.com/articles/mactech/Vol.01/01.12/Tic-Tac-Toe/index.html http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.01/01.07/LispGraphics/index.html From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Tue Sep 20 10:37:50 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:37:50 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: More DEC Bad luck. In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 19 Sep 2011 09:01:02 -0400" <1316437263.14247.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <01O65QDSNFXG000SIW@beyondthepale.ie> <01O66CPTJQOK000SPQ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01O6A7XNSD2C000V3J@beyondthepale.ie> > >I ran my meter across all of them and I'm getting the same voltages you >did. > >Any other ideas on what could be this beastie's problem? Its looking >more an more like something I'm not going to be able to work around. > As I mentioned before, I had a lot of trouble with the edge connector that the CPU slots into. I think the machine has been in a damp atmosphere and suffered from corrosion. I ended up cleaning it and reseating the card several times before it worked right. There were all sorts of varied symptoms including doing nothing. I also had a B-Cache failure but as far as I recall, that resulted in large numbers of error messages during the self tests. As the B-Cache can be disabled (or tested I think) by just moving jumpers, it may be worth trying that, just in case. I'd be happy to take measurements from mine for comparison purposes but without schematics, it is difficult to know what would be useful to measure other than the power supply lines which we've already covered. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From robertfantinatto at rogers.com Tue Sep 20 19:20:25 2011 From: robertfantinatto at rogers.com (Robert Fantinatto) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 17:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Computer Lab workbook Message-ID: <1316564425.94068.YahooMailClassic@web88608.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hello, I have a DEC H-500 computer lab and there was some discussion on this mailing list back in 2005 about posting a pdf of the workbook...did anyone ever get around to doing this?? I would really appreciate a copy of it... Many thanks, Rob Fantinatto From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Sep 21 02:11:56 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 08:11:56 +0100 Subject: DEC GIGI - Power Supply Replacement Success Message-ID: <4E798E3C.5000703@wickensonline.co.uk> Folks, Always nice when you've got a piece of good news ;) I replaced all the mains filtering capacitors in the original DEC GIGI power supply when one blew only to find that the power supply lasted another 10 minutes before losing power completely. At this point I decided given the relatively standard power outputs (5V 3A, 12V 1A, -12V 0.3A) I would source a replacement power supply. This arrived and was installed yesterday. It I guess unsurprisingly is substantially smaller and lighter than the original. The original cooling fan was removed as it was basically transformed directly from either the mains directly or one of the windings of the main transformer. I used the fan out of an external SCSI enclosure as a replacement, although I look to source a high quality brand new one. To me it looks like the fan primarily is for cooling the PSU only - given the fan location and the location of the plate that the PSU is mounted on it looks unlikely that the main circuit board would benefit much. The machine now happily powers on and I had an hours playtime last night with the local BASIC monitor. The GIGI now only exhibits one minor trait, and I'm yet to determine whether this is down to the LCD panel it is driving being at limits or whether there is a slight issue with the video generation circuit. Once in a while, every couple of minutes or so the LCD looses sync and the picture is dropped. This only happens for a fraction of a second, then the picture is restored as was. If anyone has any ideas I'm all ears. For reference I'm using a Iiyama AS4637UT, an old but extremely capable 18.1" 1280x1024 native panel. If anyone is interested I can post the horizontal and vertical frequencies it is being driven at. I plan on scanning the GIGI brochures I have for inclusion on bitsavers shortly. Regards, Mark From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Sep 21 02:18:24 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 08:18:24 +0100 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E798FC0.6050001@wickensonline.co.uk> On 20/09/11 22:34, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 20 Sep 2011, David Griffith wrote: > >> brand-new Model M from Unicomp with a USB controller when the time >> comes. Does anyone here have a Unicomp Model M? >> > Yes! Great keyboard! > > g. > I've got the APL/2 variant... very high quality replacement, just needs a few years of use to loosen it up a bit ;) http://wickensonline.co.uk/apl-unicomp.html From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 07:01:29 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 08:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Sep 2011, David Griffith wrote: > That was me. I'm getting some screws from the guy who runs > clickeykeyboards.com. Thanks for the offer. Interesting site, but a little silly in that nearly everything is "SOLD" and there's no apparent way to filter for available units. Or, am I missing some